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2020-02-01T00:01:22Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What mean in Common Lisp [SBCL], (declaim (inline ..., and notinline. I (desassemble it, and I got exactly the same result without origin.
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2020-02-01T00:03:05Z aeth: Don't dissemble the function itself, disassemble a trivial caller of the function (defun foo () (the-possibly-inline-function))
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2020-02-01T00:03:24Z aeth: And you'll have to recompile FOO after you recompile THE-POSSIBLY-INLINE-FUNCTION as inline or notinline (depending on which was first)
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2020-02-01T00:03:39Z aeth: (And also after every time you change what the inline function says)
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2020-02-01T00:44:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf: aeth, sorry for writes so late, but I can't check it. How check, that function is more efficient or not? In (disassemble I not saw a differents.
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2020-02-01T00:53:36Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: (declaim (inline +/inline) (notinline +/notinline)) (defun +/inline (x y) (+ x y)) (defun +/notinline (x y) (+ x y)) (disassemble #'+/inline) (disassemble #'+/notinline) (defun a () (+/notinline 1f0 2f0)) (defun b () (+/inline 1f0 2f0)) (disassemble #'a) (disassemble #'b)
2020-02-01T00:54:52Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: +/inline and +/notinline look identical to each other, but a (using the notinline version) calls +/notinline with 1.0 and 2.0 while b (using the inline verison) probably is compiled to return 3.0 because an optimizing compiler can turn the constant (+ 1f0 2f0) into 3f0
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2020-02-01T00:56:04Z aeth: As an aside, "3f0" is the same as "3.0f0" which is probably the same as "3.0", but I put the "f0" to ensure it's single-float because you can configure it to default to double-float and doubles might do weird things.
2020-02-01T00:56:39Z aeth: If I used integers, you'd probably see something that doesn't match what you expect, e.g. in SBCL, "1" is going to disassemble to "2" and "3" is going to disassemble to "6"
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2020-02-01T01:02:58Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: inline doesn't always make things more efficient. You probably don't want to inline unless it's trivial, like my example. If you have to redefine an inline function, you're not going to update the callers, which is a debugging nightmare.
2020-02-01T01:03:07Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: You probably shouldn't inline anything at all. Get your code to work first.
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2020-02-01T01:06:29Z LdBeth: what should I do if I want a macro defined works like progn that the eval-when definitions are treated as if they're toplevel
2020-02-01T01:06:47Z aeth: (As for the inevitable objections to responding to asdf's issue here that will probably pop up in 15 hours... if I don't answer, a bunch of misinformation about inlining is probably going to be spread.)
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2020-02-01T01:07:45Z LdBeth: or should I avoid to do so and always lift these definitions out to toplevel?
2020-02-01T01:08:33Z aeth: LdBeth: can you rephrase that? I don't quite understand
2020-02-01T01:10:19Z LdBeth: I'm currently playing with a theorem prover written in CL, it has some custom module system, and it can define lisp functions/macros inside the module definition
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2020-02-01T01:11:36Z LdBeth: the original author seems doesn't know that defmacro in the same file isn't always evaluated especially using a CL that compiles all files, such as SBCL and CCL
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2020-02-01T01:12:59Z LdBeth: thus creating problems for use with these CLs
2020-02-01T01:14:22Z LdBeth: moving the macro outside the module definition and add eval-when make the library loads without problem
2020-02-01T01:15:09Z LdBeth: but I would not like since it breaks the style of writing module
2020-02-01T01:17:34Z aeth: interesting problem
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2020-02-01T01:24:08Z LdBeth: it's bourbaki on Quicklisp btw
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2020-02-01T01:27:54Z asdf_asdf_asdf34: aeth, thank You very much. Inline is in CL by default. First code have 51 bytes and contains jumps conditions jmp, etc. instruction. While second code with inline not contains jumps and calls instructions is size smaller and usually faster.
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2020-02-01T01:29:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf34: Size second is 33 bytes. 51 - 33 = 18 bytes differents.
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2020-02-01T02:22:07Z pjb: aeth: notinline declaration doesn't prevent inlining the function, notably if it's also declared inline and it's in the same compilation unit as the caller.
2020-02-01T02:22:21Z pjb: notinline is not (not inline).
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2020-02-01T02:42:11Z asarch: In CLHS, is there any diagram showing the relation between standard classes?
2020-02-01T02:42:59Z pjb: asarch: nope, there's no diagram in CLHS.
2020-02-01T02:43:06Z asarch: Thank you
2020-02-01T02:43:20Z pjb: asarch: for each class, it is given its class precedence list.
2020-02-01T02:43:34Z pjb: For example, for integer, Class Precedence List: integer, rational, real, number, t
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2020-02-01T02:44:57Z pjb: asarch: more interesting: for System Class NULL, Class Precedence List: null, symbol, list, sequence, t
2020-02-01T02:45:16Z asarch: Do you know any tool to "build" the relationship in real time from the implementation (a la com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list)?
2020-02-01T02:45:20Z pjb: Note that not all symbols are lists. Only NIL (of class NULL) is a LIST.  This is multiple inheritance.
2020-02-01T02:45:40Z pjb: http://informatimago.com/articles/cl-types/index.html
2020-02-01T02:46:24Z pjb: But the real time relationship is not interesting, for CL classes, since some arcs and some classes are implementation dependent. You want a diagram showing the standard classes and types.
2020-02-01T02:46:46Z pjb: https://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy
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2020-02-01T02:48:14Z asarch: Thank you very much once again :-)
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2020-02-01T02:49:57Z asarch: I remember back old days of the first Borland C++ for Windows 3.1 IDE that it had an option to show the relationships between classes (including those in the STL)
2020-02-01T02:55:51Z aeth: pjb: my bad
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2020-02-01T02:57:03Z aeth: asarch: the issue with looking into CL implementations is that if you step one too far you're going to see implementation-specific internals
2020-02-01T02:58:21Z aeth: asarch: additionally, elaborate class hierarchies are generally not in style anymore in the OOP community
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2020-02-01T02:59:10Z aeth: Ironically, a Design Pattern, even though it's sort of a rejection of that kind of OOP thinking. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composition_over_inheritance
2020-02-01T03:00:04Z aeth: probably much harder to build graphs out of this, though... especially in a dynamically typed language
2020-02-01T03:00:21Z pjb: asarch: https://termbin.com/wezz
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2020-02-01T03:01:03Z aeth: pjb: of course the messy part is gray streams :-p
2020-02-01T03:01:13Z pjb: Don't ask yourself what you should not do, ask yourself what you can do!
2020-02-01T03:01:27Z pjb: Styles are fads.  They go and pass…
2020-02-01T03:02:21Z aeth: pjb: yes, but it helps explain why the answer to a "Is there a <thing that went out of style>?" question is often no
2020-02-01T03:03:28Z pjb: aeth: in Javascript, there are no class, so no class hierarchy, so no deep class hierarchy. That doesn't prevent you to make prototype chains long as the arm of the galaxy…
2020-02-01T03:05:30Z Odin- notes that pjb is not an ethicist.
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2020-02-01T03:15:16Z mfiano: I'm having a hard time understanding the docstring for uiop:define-package. Is there option that mirror's defpackage-plus's :inherit-from (Import SYMBOLS from PACKAGE, and also export them)? I don't want any merging by shadowing, or to import/export all external symbols. I want to grab a select number of symbols from some package, import them, and re-export them. I'm trying to define a reduced user
2020-02-01T03:15:17Z mfiano: API package from an internal package, and do not wish to bring in defpackage-plus for this.
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2020-02-01T03:24:39Z mfiano: I literally want the equivalent of if I used some :IMPORT-FROMs followed by :EXPORTs with the same symbols. I'm finalizing the API for a project more than 10 years in progress, and there are hundreds of symbols across a few dozen packages, and I want to ensure there is symmetry between the imports and exports.
2020-02-01T03:24:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What mean's "I want to grab a select number of symbols from some package,"?
2020-02-01T03:25:26Z mfiano: ^
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2020-02-01T03:26:46Z asdf_asdf_asdf: You want get symbol about given number without probe others symbols?
2020-02-01T03:27:13Z mfiano: I want to know uiop's equivalent of defpackage-plus's :INHERIT-FROM
2020-02-01T03:27:18Z mfiano: (if there is one)
2020-02-01T03:27:41Z mfiano: I don't know how to be any more clear than that.
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2020-02-01T03:30:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: mfiano, You mean :use keyword in CL?
2020-02-01T03:31:09Z mfiano: No, not at all.
2020-02-01T03:33:38Z mfiano: :use causes all external symbols to be inherited as internal symbols. there is no selection of the symbols as with :import-from, and there is absolutely no exporting of them. I want to import a select subset as I mentioned, while also exporting that select subset.
2020-02-01T03:35:27Z asdf_asdf_asdf: LInk put, please to :INHERIT-FROM.
2020-02-01T03:38:07Z aeth: mfiano: so you basically want an import-from-reexport like use-reexport?
2020-02-01T03:38:57Z aeth: It doesn't look like there's anything like that here: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/912e57b9495151aecfe39def208123ffd806d343/uiop/package.lisp#L676-L709
2020-02-01T03:39:22Z mfiano: That sounds right. I want the equivalent of (:import-from set-1) (:export set-1) ... (:import-from set-N) (:export set-N)
2020-02-01T03:39:45Z aeth: The only thing it could be is recycle, mix, or mix-reexport. It's not the last two based on the docstring
2020-02-01T03:39:49Z mfiano: well with the package's before the set of symbols for :import-from :)
2020-02-01T03:40:13Z mfiano: I'm trying to ensure symmetry so that the exports always match the imports for a bunch of import-froms
2020-02-01T03:40:15Z aeth: and it doesn't look like it's recycle...
2020-02-01T03:40:55Z mfiano: it's not mix or mix-rexport simply because that merges left ot right
2020-02-01T03:41:08Z mfiano: in other words, it resolves conflicts by shadowing
2020-02-01T03:41:14Z mfiano: i do not want such a thing
2020-02-01T03:42:12Z mfiano: also from what i gather those are like use, and inherit all external symbols, and won't allow me to choose which symbols
2020-02-01T03:47:49Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I don't know, what mean :IMPORT-FROM. Maybe http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_unuse_.htm .
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2020-02-01T03:49:28Z mfiano: I suggest you try to learn Common Lisp, since you've been here a while.
2020-02-01T03:49:43Z mfiano: Before offering to help experienced Lispers, especially.
2020-02-01T03:49:54Z aeth: clhs defpackage
2020-02-01T03:49:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm
2020-02-01T03:50:02Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: ^
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2020-02-01T03:59:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-02-01T04:00:50Z mfiano: ignore the query please. This time wasted could have just been spent writing a macro (many times over) to do the IMPORT/EXPORT calls myself to be symmetric.
2020-02-01T04:00:59Z mfiano: beach: Morning.
2020-02-01T04:04:02Z asdf_asdf_asdf: http://quickdocs.org/uiop/api http://quickdocs.org/uiop/ https://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
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2020-02-01T04:43:36Z asarch: In JavaScript there is also the String class, so, when you do something like let name = "asarch"; 'name' automatically is an instance of that class (you can also do "asarch".toUpperCase()). Is it the same with Common Lisp with the INTEGER class? e.g. (let ((dogs 3)) ...) <- Is 'dogs' an instance of that class? If not, what is INTEGER for?
2020-02-01T04:44:04Z no-defun-allowed: Uh, yes, an integer is an instance of the INTEGER class.
2020-02-01T04:45:02Z aeth: asarch: (string-upcase "asarch") and (let ((name "asarch")) (string-upcase name))
2020-02-01T04:45:15Z aeth: asarch: there is no dot notation in CL, those could be implemented as methods or anything else.
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2020-02-01T04:45:22Z aeth: asarch: You can however write your own
2020-02-01T04:45:53Z no-defun-allowed: And the value of DOGS is an integer there, but DOGS is not an integer. DOGS is a symbol.
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2020-02-01T04:46:26Z aeth: asarch: (defgeneric upcase (object)) (defmethod upcase ((o string)) (string-upcase o)) (defmethod upcase ((o character)) (char-upcase o))
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2020-02-01T04:47:01Z aeth: Some things are already generic, particularly around numbers and sequences, but they are not generic in the same sense of DEFGENERIC/DEFMETHOD so you can't extend them. e.g. MAP or +
2020-02-01T04:47:31Z aeth: What is the difference between "1 + 1" and "1.+(1)" and "(+ 1 1)"? Just syntax.
2020-02-01T04:48:02Z aeth: + can even mix types and take arbitrary lengths, like (+ 1 1/2 1.0f0 1.0d0)
2020-02-01T04:48:55Z aeth: Oh and +(1, 1) is another thing that's totally valid, but probably no programming language uses it
2020-02-01T04:49:02Z no-defun-allowed: Prolog?
2020-02-01T04:51:35Z aeth: asarch: The next thing you're probably wondering is "Why are some things generic and some not?" and it's probably a mix of "performance" and "the non-generic form was already in the standard library of predecessor Lisps since the 70s"
2020-02-01T04:51:52Z mfiano: + is generic also in the fact that it is also a variable with completely different semantics :)
2020-02-01T04:52:38Z aeth: asarch: Arithmetic and sequence operations have to be generic out of necessity because there are quite a few numeric types and quite a few sequence types
2020-02-01T04:54:36Z mfiano: You mean thee are 2 sequence types.
2020-02-01T04:55:22Z aeth: mfiano: Depends on how far you take it. A non-generic Lisp would probably split up vectors into quite a few different kinds of vectors. I know this because Scheme does.
2020-02-01T05:00:46Z asarch: Well, I mean, if (let ((german-shepherd 10)) ...) and (let ((chihuahua (make-instance 'integer)) ...), 'german-shepherd' and 'chihuahua' are actually not the same type, right?
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2020-02-01T05:01:42Z mfiano: That is not valid CL
2020-02-01T05:02:19Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, you cannot define a standard class named CL:INTEGER, and you cannot use make-instance on a built-in class.
2020-02-01T05:02:28Z beach: And the nonsense continues....
2020-02-01T05:02:31Z asarch: Bingo!
2020-02-01T05:02:50Z asarch: What are the built-in class for?
2020-02-01T05:03:22Z no-defun-allowed: clhs built-in-class
2020-02-01T05:03:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_built_.htm
2020-02-01T05:04:31Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-02-01T05:04:42Z no-defun-allowed: The first sentence is the most important one here: some built-in classes, such as INTEGER, would be silly to represent with standard instances.
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2020-02-01T05:05:47Z no-defun-allowed: (You can do some implementation-level tricks like fitting a fixnum into a pointer, and the class will never have to be updated, unless something very big happens in mathematics.)
2020-02-01T05:08:34Z aeth: asarch: If it bothers you, sometimes there are MAKE-FOOs instead of MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOOs in APIs, so it wouldn't be that out of place to have a MAKE-INTEGER, just like MAKE-ARRAY and MAKE-LIST. There isn't a MAKE-INTEGER, but at least you can define one yourself. It would be hard to be useful, though, because you'd probably need to provide it an integer.
2020-02-01T05:09:05Z no-defun-allowed: (defun make-zero () ...) (defun make-successor (n) ...)
2020-02-01T05:09:22Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: well, (make-integer) would probably default to returning 0, and could have a use in certain macros
2020-02-01T05:09:38Z asarch: I see
2020-02-01T05:10:43Z aeth: I guess to be somewhat useful, MAKE-INTEGER could attempt to coerce to an integer, but even then you probably want to choose how to do it, e.g. FLOOR, CEILING, TRUNCATE, ROUND, etc.
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2020-02-01T05:12:14Z aeth: asarch: But it's not too unusual to say "if X exists, why doesn't Y exist?" and write some trivial functions/macros in a utility library to give your own code some more consistency
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2020-02-01T05:13:41Z asarch: (string= (string "asarch") (string "Asarch"))
2020-02-01T05:14:18Z no-defun-allowed: STRING= is case sensitive, and you don't need the STRING forms around those strings.
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2020-02-01T05:15:13Z asarch: Ok
2020-02-01T05:19:00Z aeth: string-equal is the case insensitive version if that's what you want
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2020-02-01T05:20:34Z aeth: At least on my implementation (let* ((x "hello") (y (string x))) (eq x y)) is T so it's smart enough to realize that it should do nothing in that case. In other implementations, that might create a copy. If for some reason you want to reliably create a copy, then COPY-SEQ should be used.
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2020-02-01T05:21:33Z aeth: But needing to use constructors is a very Java thing
2020-02-01T05:23:32Z aeth: You shouldn't come into CL with a Java mindset
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2020-02-01T05:43:02Z asarch: Yeah, I know. I just was wondering about it :-)
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2020-02-01T06:35:38Z pjb: mfiano: (defpackage "MINI-LISP" (:use) (:import-from . #1=("CL" "CONS" "CAR" "CDR" "ATOM" "T" "NIL" "NULL" "CONSP" "COND" "DEFUN" "EQL")) (:export . #1#))
2020-02-01T06:36:31Z pjb: mfiano: but usually, it doesn't matter if you use (and not import a selection), for those kinds of packages, since they're designed to be used themselves, vs. in-package them.
2020-02-01T06:36:51Z pjb: (defpackage "MINI-LISP" (:use "CL:) (:export "CL" "CONS" "CAR" "CDR" "ATOM" "T" "NIL" "NULL" "CONSP" "COND" "DEFUN" "EQL")) is as good.
2020-02-01T06:37:20Z pjb: You would defined a user package to be in: (defpackage "MINI-LISP-USER" (:use "MINI-LISP")) (in-package "MINI-LISP-USER")
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2020-02-01T09:49:20Z flip214: luis: would you like to help at https://github.com/vlime/slime? That's for the JSON interface to swank.
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2020-02-01T10:01:36Z frodef: does anyone happen to know if it's possible to make erc more resilient to losing server connection?
2020-02-01T10:03:10Z pjb: frodef: it already reconnects. and rejoins. What more do you want?
2020-02-01T10:03:52Z pjb: The problem is more in the irc server/protocol, that your nick is not freed quickly.  So if you reconnect too soon, you cannot re-use it simply.
2020-02-01T10:03:53Z beach: That is not my experience.
2020-02-01T10:04:12Z pjb: You may have to discuss with nickserv to release and re-authenticate with your nick
2020-02-01T10:04:20Z _death: you can also use a bouncer
2020-02-01T10:05:38Z pjb: That's where all those quit/join messages come from sometimes.  You computer goes to sleep, connection is lost, the computer awakes, because, you know, it's a unix system and it has stuff to do periodically, and erc reconnects.  And again…  Then when you come back in the morning, you have users complaining about your quit/join messages and asking you to check your network connection.
2020-02-01T10:06:34Z pjb: frodef: so perhaps preventing the computer to sleep would be a step.  On macOS, there's caffeinate(1), so I suppose there's some API for it.
2020-02-01T10:06:59Z pjb: frodef: probably you want _death's suggestion, however…
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2020-02-01T10:11:10Z frodef: My problem is not so much losing connection when the laptop goes to sleep, which is quite understandable. But every once in a while inbetween too. I suspect it's todo with my home router's NAT or something like that.
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2020-02-01T10:21:22Z _death: a bouncer would at least keep a message log and replay it when you reconnect
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2020-02-01T10:29:59Z beach: frodef: What are the plans for a 64-bit version of Movitz, other than the 64-bit part?
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2020-02-01T10:31:14Z frodef: I have some (still rather vague) ideas for run-time design I want to explore.
2020-02-01T10:31:34Z beach: Are those ideas written down somewhere?
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2020-02-01T10:33:59Z frodef: beach: no
2020-02-01T10:34:09Z beach: Do you have any plans to write them down before you start implementing them?
2020-02-01T10:34:24Z beach: It would be interesting to read.
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2020-02-01T13:05:22Z Xach: https://github.com/pcostanza/closer-mop/commit/5b06fa56660eed59145ec5d06ce6185202e8e62f broke closer-mop for non-lispworks which breaks a very lot of things.
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2020-02-01T13:07:48Z Odin-: That seems like a pretty big oversight.
2020-02-01T13:07:56Z Xach hopes it is fixed soon
2020-02-01T13:07:58Z eeeeeta: 🤔
2020-02-01T13:08:56Z Odin-: Huh. This Android-based terminal apparently doesn't like emoji. Interesting.
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2020-02-01T13:13:16Z Odin-: https://github.com/pcostanza/closer-mop/issues/13
2020-02-01T13:13:19Z Odin-: Hmm.
2020-02-01T13:13:45Z Odin-: Xach: You might want to add something to that discussion.
2020-02-01T13:16:02Z Xach: Odin-: thanks
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2020-02-01T13:32:33Z pfdietz: minion: registration, please?
2020-02-01T13:32:33Z minion: The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_in?secret=b105caeb will be valid until 13:45 UTC.
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2020-02-01T15:31:37Z sabrac: Hmm. (code-char 11) under ccl is #\PageUp Under sbcl, cmucl, ecl, abcl and clisp it is #\Vt
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2020-02-01T15:35:15Z kmeow: it's #\Vt in clisp, sbcl, and ecl for me
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2020-02-01T15:37:01Z kmeow: oh #\PageUp in ccl
2020-02-01T15:37:51Z sabrac: Yes. #\VT is correct. Why is ccl an outlier?
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2020-02-01T15:44:20Z sabrac: (char-code #\Vt) in ccl will return 11 as it should. So just (code-char) is wrong in ccl
2020-02-01T15:45:39Z grewal: It's essentially the same. Moving a page up is a vertical tab
2020-02-01T15:45:59Z grewal: In ccl, (eq #\Vt #\PageUp) ; => T
2020-02-01T15:47:00Z Nilby: The character name PageUp is historical from old Macintosh which had a not exactly ASCII encoding.
2020-02-01T15:47:16Z sabrac: Unicode is messy enough without synonyms at the lisp implementation level
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2020-02-01T15:50:20Z pfdietz: The standard does not specify very many character names.
2020-02-01T15:50:40Z Nilby: It's called "LINE TABULATION" in unicode.
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2020-02-01T15:51:21Z Nilby: Or no name really.
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2020-02-01T15:54:53Z Nilby: Just don't confuse #\bel with #\bell.
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2020-02-01T16:01:43Z sabrac: writing a NFKC normalisation function. Currently 195 failures out of 75280 tests. Slowly getting there. Learning lots.
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2020-02-01T16:05:31Z sabrac: at least ccl and sbcl are agreeing on my failures
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2020-02-01T16:23:05Z beach: sabrac: Sounds like a good project.  We need more Unicode-related tools.
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2020-02-01T16:26:28Z sabrac: beach: I need it for scram-sha-256 authentication in postmodern. Messing up people's passwords would not be acceptable
2020-02-01T16:26:48Z beach: I see.
2020-02-01T16:28:12Z sabrac: I will break it out in a separate library for general use
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2020-02-01T16:29:19Z sabrac: will also do nfd and nfc normalisation as well
2020-02-01T16:30:54Z beach: Great!
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2020-02-01T16:41:14Z Odin-: Huh.
2020-02-01T16:41:22Z Odin- was doing the same. :)
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2020-02-01T16:55:39Z sabrac: Odin-: I have more confidence in your version (sight unseen) - You know a lot more about this space than I do
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2020-02-01T16:58:29Z Odin-: sabrac: I'm a hobby programmer who's had reason to look more closely at character encoding than is sane; never really worked on any of the algorithms before. :p
2020-02-01T16:59:32Z Odin-: (I happen to have studied history at university, in a country where there's a fair bit of concern with medieval manuscripts and their preservation. Letter for letter, that is.)
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2020-02-01T17:24:33Z beach: sabrac, Odin-: Perhaps you would be interested in creating a pure Common Lisp version of HarfBuzz?
2020-02-01T17:24:59Z Odin-: That's rather a bigger undertaking. :p
2020-02-01T17:25:05Z beach: We could use such a thing for McCLIM text applications.
2020-02-01T17:25:16Z beach: Yes, but there are two of you. :)
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2020-02-01T17:25:54Z beach: I fully understand if you reject my suggestion, of course.
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2020-02-01T17:53:55Z slyrus_: beach: I think we need something like that for the McCLIM PDF backend
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2020-02-01T18:01:02Z Shinmera: beach: I've been working towards a text layouting engine.
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2020-02-01T19:02:39Z beach: Shinmera: Oh, excellent!  I had no idea.
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2020-02-01T19:10:05Z Odin-: beach: I'm hesitant to ask, but ... if FFIing to pango or harfbuzz not a feasible thing?
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2020-02-01T19:43:37Z jackdaniel: Odin-: we have alternative freetype renderer which delegates things to harfbuzz
2020-02-01T19:43:50Z jackdaniel: native version otoh works i.e on mezzano
2020-02-01T19:44:18Z jackdaniel: also, currently native ttf render (possibly because it doesn't do shaping, but still), is around 40-80x faster in benchmarks
2020-02-01T19:45:16Z jackdaniel: we could make a bounty for a good shaping implementation in the cl truetype renderer
2020-02-01T19:45:47Z Odin-: Oh. Interesting.
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2020-02-01T20:15:10Z jackdaniel: n.b: if anyone is interested in implementing that and in a bounty, please contact me. there is none yet.
2020-02-01T20:15:56Z jackdaniel: s/there is none yet/there is no bounty so far for this particular feature/
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2020-02-01T20:35:49Z pjb: sabrac: note that different implementations can use different names for the unicode "characters" too. clisp gives often "better" and more names, since it uses libiconv (IIRC).  A lot of implementations just use \uABCD as name for a lot of "characters"…
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2020-02-01T23:42:28Z Xach: well closer-mop is repaired, thankfully
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2020-02-01T23:54:46Z pfdietz: Yay!
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2020-02-02T02:11:29Z asarch: How could I get a random number (with limits)?
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2020-02-02T02:20:03Z ebrasca: asarch: (random n) ?
2020-02-02T02:20:30Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-02-02T02:23:22Z aeth: asarch: random gives you 0 to below n (integer if integer, float if float... so for 5 you're getting 0, 1, 2, 3, or 4, but for 5.0f0 or 5.0d0 you could get something between 4.0 and 5.0)
2020-02-02T02:23:46Z asarch: Do you need to start the seed?
2020-02-02T02:23:50Z aeth: yes
2020-02-02T02:24:01Z aeth: SBCL always starts with the same seed
2020-02-02T02:24:01Z asarch: How?
2020-02-02T02:24:06Z asarch: Ok
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2020-02-02T02:25:01Z asarch: I am trying to do the graphic in McCLIM of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collatz_conjecture
2020-02-02T02:25:31Z aeth: Assuming you're on the same version (random 5) will always return the same thing in a fresh SBCL, which is 4, unless they change their algorithm a bit. It works on a very old version and on 2.0.0, though.
2020-02-02T02:27:20Z aeth: (let ((r (make-random-state t))) (random 5 r)) ; without the T, you'll still get 4
2020-02-02T02:27:30Z aeth: Other implementations may differ, of course.
2020-02-02T02:27:42Z aeth: But if it's required for some, you have to do it in all portable code.
2020-02-02T02:28:12Z asarch: Ok
2020-02-02T02:28:42Z aeth: Of course, you can also DEFPARAMETER it into a global if you want. Or you can set *random-state* which is what RANDOM uses without an argument
2020-02-02T02:29:08Z aeth: The API for using a specific seed number is implementation-specific, if the implementation supports it.
2020-02-02T02:29:18Z aeth: If you need it to be portably deterministic, you have to use a third party RNG
2020-02-02T02:29:32Z asarch: Is there a way to get the entropy from the system?
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2020-02-02T02:30:11Z aeth: Portably, you're just given MAKE-RANDOM-STATE, RANDOM, RANDOM-STATE-P and *RANDOM-STATE* afaik, as well as that the class is called RANDOM-STATE. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_number.htm
2020-02-02T02:30:26Z aeth: Unportably, there might be more. e.g. in SBCL... http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Random-Number-Generation
2020-02-02T02:30:41Z aeth: If you need more sophistication or need it to be portable, you need to use a library.
2020-02-02T02:30:48Z asarch: Thank you, thank you very much :-)
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2020-02-02T02:31:46Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. https://cpy.pt/YyGG4W8V https://cpy.pt/WrR173JJ Which code better and why?
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2020-02-02T02:31:55Z aeth: asarch: Oh, and what I do is I write a trivial function that calls SB-EXT:SEED-RANDOM-STATE or other equivalent where available and (make-random-state t) where not available, which works if you want it to be manually seeded if possible, but don't care if the seeds do the same thing on different implementations.
2020-02-02T02:32:41Z asdf_asdf_asdf: ((0 1) (0 2) (0 3) (0 4) (1 2) (1 3) (1 4) (2 3) (2 4) (3 4)) ; searching index, for (2 4) index is 8, because count from 0
2020-02-02T02:33:09Z asarch: I see
2020-02-02T02:33:13Z aeth: asarch: Then if there is a seeding functionality for the implementation, you can e.g. call /dev/urandom or whatever the current recommended thing is, once, to get the seed. Although maybe the implementation already does this.
2020-02-02T02:33:32Z aeth: Unfortunately, I haven't really formalized this enough into something usable in a library.
2020-02-02T02:33:52Z aeth: The other approach, of course, is to write your own RNG so (1) you can seed on every implementation and (2) the seed always does the same thing on every implementation.
2020-02-02T02:34:32Z aeth: I mean, the other library approach. Prefer others' libraries where possible. In this case, https://github.com/Shinmera/random-state
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2020-02-02T02:36:45Z asarch: A fellow from #mirbsd used to share entropy through an Irssi/hexchat plugin
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2020-02-02T02:37:18Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: lower numbers are better for every single one of those lines (seconds, seconds, CPU, cycles, consing (i.e. heap allocations)), making the second TIME better.
2020-02-02T02:41:20Z asdf_asdf_asdf: aeth, so find-index is better algorithm than index-a?
2020-02-02T02:43:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Readability code is also better than index-a?
2020-02-02T02:44:45Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: No, you're not comparing the two algorithms. The first one conses (i.e. allocates) a ton and the second one doesn't, so that's what you're actually benchmarking.
2020-02-02T02:45:09Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: Rewrite index-a to take two arguments instead of a list of length two and then it's more comparable to find-index
2020-02-02T02:45:23Z aeth: (so 3 total arguments)
2020-02-02T02:48:37Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: i.e. instead of "(defun index-a (entry-a max-a)" and then immediately turning entry-a into f-entry-a and s-entry-a, do "(defun index-a (f-entry-a s-entry-a max-a)" and now you won't have to allocate 100,000 lists.
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2020-02-02T02:54:13Z asdf_asdf_asdf: aeth, thank. Still find-index better than index-a? https://cpy.pt/Fv24qX4s
2020-02-02T02:55:49Z asdf_asdf_asdf: What's mean here 100% CPU and 1,572,856 bytes consed?
2020-02-02T02:56:41Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: the important part is that it's still allocating. Possibly allocating a rational. Is that what you really want with your algorithm or do you want FLOOR instead of / in the algorithm?
2020-02-02T02:57:28Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: in CL (/ 3 4) = 3/4 but in many languages the division between integers behaves like (floor 3 4) or (truncate 3 4) and returns 0.
2020-02-02T02:58:24Z aeth: (or e.g. 1 in the case of 5 divided by 4 instead of 5/4)
2020-02-02T02:59:42Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Omitting this fact, which algorithm better and what above mean?
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2020-02-02T03:07:13Z LdBeth: Isn’t SBCL using the same PRNG as CMUCL?
2020-02-02T03:07:34Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: If you want to actually know which *algorithm* is better, then this is a starting point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_algorithmics
2020-02-02T03:07:50Z LdBeth: That MT19937 one
2020-02-02T03:08:07Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: If you just want to know which *function* is better (a much weaker claim) it looks like the second one is, but you should probably have more test cases than just the one.
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2020-02-02T03:10:58Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, but what mean "100.00% CPU" for index-a?
2020-02-02T03:11:26Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: that is probably the most useless measure. It just means it used 100% of your CPU at some point.
2020-02-02T03:12:06Z aeth: "to cons" is slang for "to allocate on the heap" so the consing measure is meaningful. And obviously the timimng measures are timing
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2020-02-02T03:14:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thank, so index-a takes 1.5 MB memory from heap.
2020-02-02T03:15:47Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I think, that find-index is better, because takes less cycles CPU than index-a about twice.
2020-02-02T03:16:28Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: Yes, but it's possible that the first function could be written more efficiently, which is why the second *function* is better (in that one specific test case), not necessarily the second algorithm.
2020-02-02T03:16:56Z aeth: But you're probably overthinking things, and if both work and the 2nd works better for now, just go with it.
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2020-02-02T03:21:32Z aeth: LdBeth: SBCL is a fork of CMUCL iirc, so it should use the same things as CMUCL except where it has been rewritten (over the past 20 years, though!)
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2020-02-02T05:14:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-02T05:14:38Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2020-02-02T05:14:43Z beach: Odin-: Sure, on a Unix-like system, but not on CLOSOS.
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2020-02-02T05:41:03Z jonatack: Morning beach!
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2020-02-02T07:30:29Z jeosol: "ALEXANDRIA" is already a nickname for "ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV".                                                                                                                                                                                                                         [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR]
2020-02-02T07:30:54Z jeosol: I recently updated ql and started getting that error. I am using SBCL. Anyone see that error before?
2020-02-02T07:34:22Z jeosol: I think it's related to some conflict with osicat(?) and alexandria systems. Each time,  I am able to select options to resolve it though. Hoping, there is a better resolution
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2020-02-02T09:08:42Z beach: Can someone with ECL installed confirm that the method combinations of two different generic functions created with the same (possibly implicit) :METHOD-COMBINATION option are not EQ?
2020-02-02T09:08:55Z beach: I would do it myself, but I can't seem to install ECL.
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2020-02-02T09:11:27Z no-defun-allowed: Does `sudo apt install ecl` not work?
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2020-02-02T09:12:13Z no-defun-allowed: Mine doesn't appear to work either, sadly. When it tries to load quicklisp (so I can load closer-mop), I get the error "undefined symbol: ecl_make_constant_base_string".
2020-02-02T09:12:28Z beach: Oh, I didn't think of apt-get install.
2020-02-02T09:12:45Z beach: Let me try that.
2020-02-02T09:13:07Z no-defun-allowed: https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=default&section=all&arch=any&keywords=ecl&searchon=names suggests that it is in the Ubuntu packages.
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2020-02-02T09:16:55Z beach: I was able to install ECL with apt-get.
2020-02-02T09:17:30Z beach: Now I need to figure out how to get to the method combination of a generic function.
2020-02-02T09:17:36Z beach: SLOT-VALUE ought to work.
2020-02-02T09:18:16Z no-defun-allowed: Excellent, the Arch Linux package for ECL can't load FASL files, and compiling ECL results in a program that prints out a backtrace and dies when started.
2020-02-02T09:18:35Z beach: :(
2020-02-02T09:20:43Z beach: Thanks, I figured it out.
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2020-02-02T09:23:48Z no-defun-allowed: Then after updating my copy of the source code, it cannot find the package SB-BSD-SOCKETS (ECL uses SBCL's socket library, from memory). Could have also been some problems with using parallel make; some programs are like that.
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2020-02-02T09:47:41Z beach: I think I found another minor bug in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  The description of DEFGENERIC has (:method-combination method-combination method-combination-argument*) as one possible option.
2020-02-02T09:48:24Z beach: But I think it should be (:method-combination method-combination-name method-combination-argument*) given the Arguments and Values description.
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2020-02-02T10:21:30Z cl-arthur: https://pastebin.com/gYUbM0bw  :: I'm trying to make something using the MOP and have a metaclass (or class metaobject class, if you like) whose slots I want to have a slot to store a function. Instead of the desired function, though, I'm currently storing the symbol #'- . I have two questions: 1) What's the appropriate level to canonicalize the :subslot argument at? (Going by Closette in AMOP, it seems
2020-02-02T10:21:36Z cl-arthur: like the function make-direct-slot-definition would have been a good candidate, but it's not part of MOP proper.) 2) What's a good way to go from a symbol #'- to the "related" function? (Calling eval on it works, but seems dirty.)
2020-02-02T10:24:32Z no-defun-allowed: clhs symbol-function
2020-02-02T10:24:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm
2020-02-02T10:25:12Z no-defun-allowed: #'- would evaluate to a function. if you have a symbol, you can use SYMBOL-FUNCTION to get the function bound to it.
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2020-02-02T10:26:27Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, you have the form #'-. You should destructure it [#'foo is the same as (FUNCTION foo)] to get the symbol.
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2020-02-02T10:35:54Z cl-arthur: Oh, I do have a #'- form and not a #'- symbol as I thought. Hurr durr. Thanks, that nicely answers question 2 :)
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2020-02-02T11:11:57Z Achylles: I don't know, but I got a little upset seeing this conference video. As far I understood, the guy says that lisp has no practical use in modern days and that he is interested in it just because it can make him a better programmer in other languages. Thoughts?
2020-02-02T11:12:11Z Achylles: https://hooktube.com/watch?v=hGY3uBHVVr4
2020-02-02T11:13:35Z beach: Lots of people say stupid things all the time.
2020-02-02T11:13:40Z beach: You can't stop them.
2020-02-02T11:14:29Z no-defun-allowed: I can't take anyone who writes LISP upcased seriously; same with Hooktube but that's not a hill I'm interested in dying on tonight. It might be excusable if "it's 1959".
2020-02-02T11:14:55Z cl-arthur: Achylles: People like to pretend 'industry best practice' doesn't mean 'lowest common denominator' :)
2020-02-02T11:15:09Z no-defun-allowed: Interestingly, he mentions #f, #t and null? which are Scheme-isms and certainly weren't used in 1959.
2020-02-02T11:15:42Z no-defun-allowed: And at 33:40, his indentation of COND is way out (but no one would have indented anything in 1959 either).
2020-02-02T11:16:55Z Achylles: beach, this is an recent and important conference. How they choose such people to give a talk like this? Which are the criteria? Then you attend something like this and instead to be drawn to the language by curiosity, at least, you miss the whole interest before trying it...
2020-02-02T11:17:12Z no-defun-allowed: I didn't learn much about how he implemented any of that in his "original LISP interpreter in C", either.
2020-02-02T11:17:36Z no-defun-allowed: Achylles: It's a Linux conference. Why would they have good Lisp programmers?
2020-02-02T11:18:19Z no-defun-allowed: (And didn't Linus make fun of GNU Hurd for being written by "people who thought Lisp was a good idea" or something like that?)
2020-02-02T11:18:20Z beach: Achylles: I think you should drop it.  It is not worth getting upset about.
2020-02-02T11:18:36Z no-defun-allowed: Basically that.
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2020-02-02T11:20:12Z cl-arthur: Re. my earlier question about the appropriate point to canonicalize direct-slots: Seems to be in ensure-class-using-class.
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2020-02-02T12:59:43Z LdBeth: I think in 1959 people doesn't actually write lisp
2020-02-02T13:00:09Z pjb: LdBeth: you're wrong.
2020-02-02T13:00:28Z LdBeth: they think in symbolic notations and programming them with list
2020-02-02T13:00:32Z pjb: LdBeth: AIM-8 is dated May 1958.  From this date, there were people writing lisp code.
2020-02-02T13:00:55Z pjb: LdBeth: and programming with symbols and lists was done earlier, with NSS and FLPL.
2020-02-02T13:02:23Z pjb: err, correction: AIM-8 is dated March 4, 1959 (so the rest of year was spent writing lisp code), but there was a first note dated 1958.
2020-02-02T13:02:34Z pjb: LdBeth: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/
2020-02-02T13:02:45Z pjb: LdBeth: FLPL: http://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
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2020-02-02T13:03:18Z pjb: LdBeth: http://jmc.stanford.edu/articles/lisp.html
2020-02-02T13:03:41Z pjb: LdBeth: This paper concentrates on the development of the basic ideas of LISP and distinguishes two periods - Summer 1956 through Summer 1958 when most of the key ideas were developed (some of which were implemented in the FORTRAN based FLPL), and Fall 1958 through 1962 when the programming language was implemented and applied to problems of artificial intelligence.
2020-02-02T13:03:47Z pjb: So back from 1956…
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2020-02-02T13:05:42Z LdBeth: pjb: it's never the same lisp we use today
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2020-02-02T13:06:08Z pjb: LdBeth: lisp is never the same, because you always write new operators to transform it.
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2020-02-02T13:06:28Z p_l: LdBeth: form 1959 the lisp used is similar enough to require only minimal work in order to compile on Common Lisp
2020-02-02T13:06:30Z pjb: LdBeth: lisp is still the same: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
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2020-02-02T13:07:31Z pjb: LdBeth: basically, you could use a time machine, go back to 1962, and start writing lisp code for 58 years, and you could run this code on today CL implementations!
2020-02-02T13:07:52Z pjb: Imagine being able to implement a 58 man.year project in lisp!
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2020-02-02T13:08:07Z pjb: or bring a friend, and implement a 116 man.year project in lisp!
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2020-02-02T13:12:13Z pjb: LdBeth: Be sure to read the links I gave you. They're all very short!
2020-02-02T13:12:45Z LdBeth: I always want a lisp editor works like the one MTS LISP or InterLisp has
2020-02-02T13:13:26Z LdBeth: but modern CL no longer store programs in heap as lists
2020-02-02T13:15:05Z LdBeth: and they also lacked NLAMBDA & FLAMBDA
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2020-02-02T13:19:52Z LdBeth: even CL cannot properly run older CL code written with obscure packages such as Flaovrs or ObjectLisp
2020-02-02T13:25:02Z edgar-rft: Lisp is older than one might think -> https://tinyurl.com/qrht5t9
2020-02-02T13:25:40Z p_l: LdBeth: CL still stores programs as lists, it's more an issue with nobody writing the right environment. Both Flavors and others can be reasonly reimplemented in CL without significant effort, the issue with Fexpr systems is more that you lose a lot of the compilation capability iirc
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2020-02-02T13:30:28Z LdBeth: and imagine purposely writing CL code that looks close to ML (in NuPRL) or ALGOL (with Plisp developed in Apple), for all the absolute things they're only attractive/useful in that special context, no one would like writing lisp in the same fashion as people as old in 1959, given already exposed to some considerably modern programming languages
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2020-02-02T13:31:21Z Nilby: Fexprs feel mostly clumsy compared to macros.
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2020-02-02T13:31:39Z LdBeth: in other words, you don't really needs to know how people use LISP in 1959 to be a good programmer :d
2020-02-02T13:33:38Z LdBeth: Nilby: actually, they provides very general and clean call-by-name semantics
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2020-02-02T13:33:50Z Bike: fexprs make compilation very hard since any of their arguments need to remain unprocessed, and if they're invoked you need a reified environment. and you can't know if a given function call looking thing is a fexpr operation without type inference or something, which is in turn rendered difficult by the problems
2020-02-02T13:34:08Z Bike: it seems like wanting a fexpr that's not a macro would be rare, though
2020-02-02T13:35:04Z Nilby: I dunno. I worked on converting a huge program using fexprs, and they seemed cleaner as macros.
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2020-02-02T13:35:27Z pjb: LdBeth: you are again totally wrong.
2020-02-02T13:35:58Z pjb: LdBeth: see: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html  and  http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html
2020-02-02T13:36:15Z Nilby: I you want, you can have macros expand not at compile time too, but it's more rare.
2020-02-02T13:36:36Z pjb: LdBeth: or have a look at Hemlock.
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2020-02-02T13:38:09Z pjb: LdBeth: it would be nice if you wrote less bullshit, and wrote more lisp code…  If you want an image based development environment, spend your week-end writing it (it's simple), instead of writing non-sense on irc!
2020-02-02T13:38:18Z LdBeth: pjb: I've used the hemlock based editor shipped with CCL, not very powerful if compared to Symbolics Genera
2020-02-02T13:38:32Z pjb: LdBeth: you have to sources, make it more powerful!
2020-02-02T13:40:51Z Nilby: Also when I've used form based editors, I didn't like it. I may be stupid but I like the control of the textual form. With form editors you can even make the parens disappear, but I find it disconcerting. But a good lisp editor should have the structure too.
2020-02-02T13:42:35Z LdBeth: not worth it, many other interesting things includes CLWEB, Plisp, LCF ML, projection editor, they all adds extra burden to the development
2020-02-02T13:42:57Z Nilby: pjb: But nobody want to use the simple week-end editor. You, me, beach, and a lot of other people have written one, but we're still using poor old Richard's emacs.
2020-02-02T13:44:42Z pjb: Nilby: that's not the point.  The point is less talking, more programming!
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2020-02-02T13:52:03Z LdBeth: the problem with sexp editor in CL, is that CL involves more class, objects, arrays than pure lists and symbols
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2020-02-02T13:53:39Z LdBeth: that's where the inspector comes
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2020-02-02T15:33:06Z flip214: If I've got a system loaded in my image, can I tell ASDF to reload a different version from another location?
2020-02-02T15:33:52Z flip214: my asdf:*central-registry* contains *default-pathname-default*, and I'm in the source path... but ASDF doesn't see this new path
2020-02-02T15:34:51Z flip214: even asdf:clear-system doesn't help
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2020-02-02T15:35:36Z pjb: Perhaps asdf/system:reset-system ?
2020-02-02T15:36:52Z flip214: I only have asdf/system::reset-system-class
2020-02-02T15:37:12Z flip214: asdf:find-system still gives the "old" path
2020-02-02T15:40:03Z pjb: There doesn't seem to be any function to delete a system.  You should write one, I would say.  Or check the user manual?
2020-02-02T15:40:21Z pjb: Or perhaps, you could write a method to change the path of the system in the system object?
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2020-02-02T15:40:55Z pfdietz: I am now tempted to write a deffexpr macro.   It wouldn't be that hard.   The arguments would be passed in as thunks.   Lexical variables would be evaluated in the context of the caller, though.
2020-02-02T15:41:11Z jmercouris: pfdietz: what is a deffexpr macro do?
2020-02-02T15:41:11Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: there's some emacs lisp compatibility code in Hemlock.
2020-02-02T15:41:11Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: my plan is to write a C compiler targetting CL, to specifically compile GNU emacs in a lisp image ;-)
2020-02-02T15:41:11Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: there's a CL implementation in emacs lisp: emacs-cl; but it has bitrotten, since it worked before the introduction of closures in emacs lisp.
2020-02-02T15:41:29Z jmercouris: oh I see, OK interesting
2020-02-02T15:42:07Z pfdietz: Well, I'd have to go over the details, but the idea would be (foo x) ==> (foo-internal (lambda () x)), and in foo-internal the arg would be funcalled to get its value.
2020-02-02T15:42:21Z jmercouris: pfdietz: what is the purpose of this macro?
2020-02-02T15:42:34Z pfdietz: Just for the hell of it?
2020-02-02T15:42:43Z jmercouris: I don't understand
2020-02-02T15:42:48Z jmercouris: when would one use this macro?
2020-02-02T15:42:56Z jmercouris: what would it make more convenient?
2020-02-02T15:43:21Z jmercouris: pjb: if you compiled Emacs intoa  Lisp image, what power does that get you?
2020-02-02T15:43:24Z beach: jmercouris: You probably don't know about the FEXPRs in old Lisps
2020-02-02T15:43:35Z jmercouris: I know nothing of them no
2020-02-02T15:43:37Z flip214: pjb: that means I have to learn ASDFs internals... thanks anyway!
2020-02-02T15:43:39Z jmercouris: I've heard of mexpr
2020-02-02T15:43:40Z pfdietz: fexprs were being mentioned earlier in this channel, so it would be a demonstration you could have what amounts to them in CL.   Useful?   Not that I can tell, but maybe someone would want it.
2020-02-02T15:44:11Z pjb: pfdietz: how do you catch the lexical environment? IIRC, a fexpr returns a form like a macro.  You will have to evaluate it, but eval doesn't take an environment (and neither compile).
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2020-02-02T15:44:47Z jmercouris: a FEXPR returns a macro?
2020-02-02T15:44:48Z jmercouris: a meta macro?
2020-02-02T15:45:02Z flip214: pjb: ah, sorry. my bad.
2020-02-02T15:45:02Z pjb: jmercouris: then you can call CL functions from emacs lisp easily.
2020-02-02T15:45:11Z jmercouris: oh I see, but no interop the other way
2020-02-02T15:45:13Z jmercouris: or?
2020-02-02T15:45:28Z flip214: I was in the source directory, but the ASD hid in a subdir and so wasn't in *def-p-def* at all!
2020-02-02T15:45:42Z pjb: jmercouris: then you can write your extensions in CL, while letting GNU emacs maintainers continue using C to maintain GNU emacs, while letting the GNU emacs community continue using emacs lisp to implement third party emacs packages.
2020-02-02T15:46:04Z pjb: jmercouris: an alternative would be, nowdays, to put libecl in an emacs module.
2020-02-02T15:46:13Z froggey: pjb: I tried compiling Emacs with Iota recently. it almost worked, but started crashing halfway through loadup.el/bootstrapping
2020-02-02T15:46:20Z jmercouris: froggey: I tried mezzano today
2020-02-02T15:46:31Z pjb: jmercouris: of course, having a C->CL compiler will also let us compile device drivers from Linux for a lisp OS :-)
2020-02-02T15:46:33Z jmercouris: froggey: very fascinating, impressive
2020-02-02T15:46:39Z froggey: it also required running sbcl with a 16GB heap to load...
2020-02-02T15:46:43Z froggey: jmercouris: thanks
2020-02-02T15:46:48Z pfdietz: It is my understanding that fexprs are functions that do not evaluate their arguments at the call, but only as needed.
2020-02-02T15:46:55Z pjb: froggey: yes, not surprising. This bootstrapping (emacs image saving) might need to be patched.
2020-02-02T15:47:10Z pjb: pfdietz: what do they return?
2020-02-02T15:47:18Z pfdietz: They return ordinary values.
2020-02-02T15:47:36Z pjb: pfdietz: note that there was no closure when they were used.
2020-02-02T15:47:40Z jmercouris: am I understanding that a FEXPR return is not evaluated?
2020-02-02T15:47:43Z pjb: pfdietz: only dynamic bindings.
2020-02-02T15:48:04Z pjb: So it was easier to get "local" variables in the fexpr, since they were all dynamic bindings.
2020-02-02T15:48:22Z pfdietz: pjb: right.   Today, in a lisp with lexical bindings, it would have to be done differently.
2020-02-02T15:48:38Z pjb: pfdietz: what are you missing in CL that fexpr would provide?
2020-02-02T15:48:39Z jmercouris: pfdietz: what is an "ordinary" value?
2020-02-02T15:48:43Z pfdietz: jmercouris: that was not my understanding
2020-02-02T15:49:03Z pjb: jmercouris: opposed to a "form" that would have to be evaluated.
2020-02-02T15:49:09Z pfdietz: ordinary value:  not a "delayed" value, one that has to be poked somehow to actually compute it.
2020-02-02T15:49:40Z jmercouris: pjb: oh, I see
2020-02-02T15:49:41Z pfdietz: So, laziness in arguments, not in the return value.
2020-02-02T15:49:57Z jmercouris: OK, basically a value that cannot be further computed to get the final value
2020-02-02T15:50:00Z pjb: ok
2020-02-02T15:50:09Z jmercouris: not a representation of a final value, but *the* most computed form
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2020-02-02T15:51:13Z jmercouris: pfdietz: the reason I had this understanding is this statement on wikipedia: "In contrast, when an ordinary Lisp function is called, the operands are evaluated automatically, and only the results of these evaluations are provided to the function; and when a (traditional) Lisp macro is called, the operands are passed in unevaluated, but whatever result the macro function returns is automatically evaluated"
2020-02-02T15:51:42Z jmercouris: why the "but whatever result" if not comparing to FEXPR?
2020-02-02T15:51:51Z jmercouris: maybe the wording need be improved
2020-02-02T15:51:58Z pfdietz: The use case for fexprs was special forms like IF.
2020-02-02T15:52:58Z pjb: pfdietz: there's also the difficulty of the name. Do you want to be able to use (function ,fexpr-name) ?
2020-02-02T15:53:13Z pjb: pfdietz: because deffexpr will have to define a macro with that name.
2020-02-02T15:53:31Z pjb: pfdietz: so perhaps you can use (fexpr ,fexpr-name) instead of (function ,fexpr-name)?
2020-02-02T15:53:49Z pfdietz: That seems poorly phrased.  The argument forms are passed into the macro function, which operates on the forms to make a new form.  A fexpr, in contrast, looks more like an ordinary function.
2020-02-02T15:54:22Z Nilby: an fexpr is like doing a defmacro and but having a function you can call that applies the macro to the arguments
2020-02-02T15:54:24Z pfdietz: I would not allow #'fexpr-name.   The fexpr would be implemented as a macro.  It would have to be.
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2020-02-02T15:55:32Z jmercouris: here is something interesting I've read "newLISP is a scripting language designed not to be compiled but to be fully dynamic and introspective."
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2020-02-02T15:55:44Z jmercouris: this sentence seems to imply that a compiled language is not dynamic nor introspective
2020-02-02T15:55:49Z jmercouris: that doesn't seem true to me
2020-02-02T15:56:04Z jmercouris: also, what *is* a scripting language?
2020-02-02T15:56:50Z pfdietz: I think there are very interesting questions on how to make a compiled language more fully dynamic.   For example:  how to compile a function so that it can be recompiled, even when calls to it are on the stack, so that returning through those calls things work properly.
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2020-02-02T15:57:20Z jmercouris: I guess the stack would need to only contain references to function bodies, rather than the actualy instructions
2020-02-02T15:57:29Z beach: jmercouris: There is no such thing as a "compiled language" or an "interpreted language".
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2020-02-02T15:57:42Z beach: jmercouris: Those are characteristics of the implementation.  Not of the language.
2020-02-02T15:57:49Z pjb: pfdietz: https://termbin.com/mxe0
2020-02-02T15:58:06Z jmercouris: beach: that is true, I've come to realize that, but I am meaning that, can a compiled implementation not be dynamic and introspective?
2020-02-02T15:58:41Z beach: jmercouris: The term "scripting language" typically means "I don't know anything about compiler design, so I am going to make a really slow implementation".
2020-02-02T15:58:53Z jmercouris: lol :-D
2020-02-02T15:59:09Z jmercouris: I like it
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2020-02-02T16:00:54Z pfdietz: jmercouris:  I further want things like references to class slots to be inlined, but the function to work if the class definition is changed while a call through the function is on the stack.
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2020-02-02T16:01:25Z pjb: pfdietz: improved fexpr: https://termbin.com/ry3hv
2020-02-02T16:02:16Z pjb: pfdietz: be sure to report whether this is useful!
2020-02-02T16:02:23Z pfdietz: pjb: what I was thinking of didn't involve the arguments remaining as source forms.   So I don't think I was thinking of what was called fexprs.   Call-by-name arguments, perhaps.
2020-02-02T16:03:59Z pfdietz: jmercouris:  a compiler could compile a function in such a way that what's stored on the stack is valid regardless of whether calls were inlined.   So, if things change during a call, just return to the non-inlined version of the function.   The interesting problem here is code generation that generates this sort of "universal" stack layout.
2020-02-02T16:04:38Z pjb: pfdietz: so if it's a symbol, you pass the symbol, if it's another atom, or a list, evaluate it?  What about symbol-macros?
2020-02-02T16:05:07Z pfdietz: pjb: I'm imagining passing thunks.
2020-02-02T16:05:17Z pfdietz: Not source forms (atoms or not).
2020-02-02T16:05:18Z beach: jmercouris: More seriously, there are two widely used meanings of "scripting language".  One is a language used for system administration on a typical Unix-like system.  The other one is a dynamic language used to make it possible to modify or add to the behavior of an application that is otherwise written in a static language.
2020-02-02T16:05:35Z pjb: pfdietz: see http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp
2020-02-02T16:05:45Z pfdietz: Yes, much like that.
2020-02-02T16:05:45Z beach: jmercouris: newLISP seems to be of the first kind.
2020-02-02T16:06:05Z pjb: beach: let's be more precise, on your second definition.
2020-02-02T16:06:35Z beach: pjb: Go ahead.
2020-02-02T16:07:10Z pfdietz: Although call-by-name and call-by-reference are different.
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2020-02-02T16:07:50Z pjb: beach: a script, is a program such as one toplevel form can change the environment in such a way that the semantics of the following forms can be changed at run-time.  Compiled CL programs don't do that, at run-time.  When you compile a CL program, the toplevel forms can change the environment for the compilation of the following forms.  But the semantics are frozen at compilation-time, and cannot change (other than some controlle
2020-02-02T16:07:50Z pjb: ways, such as redefining functions) at run-time.
2020-02-02T16:08:03Z Nilby: So is CL all of a sudden a scripting language if I'm using it as a shell and writing shell scripts?
2020-02-02T16:08:33Z pjb: beach: therefore a CL script must not be compiled (with compile-file).  It must be loaded. (or you must provide a different way to compile it).
2020-02-02T16:08:36Z Bike: yeah as i understand a fexpr is pretty simple (since it is after all old) - it's just like a function call except the arguments aren't evaluated. so you'd have like the "fexpr problem" which was (lambda (f x) (f x)), and the argument x is used normally if the f passed in is a function, but if the f passed in is a fexpr it receives the symbol X and the argument is ignored
2020-02-02T16:08:41Z Bike: which is like, pretty weird.
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2020-02-02T16:09:19Z pjb: beach: the conclusion is that things such as cl-launch that try to ql:quickload libraries and to compile your script before running it disable the scripting feature of CL.  You get normal programs.
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2020-02-02T16:09:41Z pjb: beach: in summary: (load source) = script, (load (compile-file source)) = program.
2020-02-02T16:10:34Z beach: Good to know.  I had no idea that "script" had such a precise definition.
2020-02-02T16:10:35Z pjb: beach: (I converted all my lisp scripts into single-image lisp program dispatching according to the invoked program name).
2020-02-02T16:10:43Z pjb: beach: it's my definition.
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2020-02-02T16:12:44Z pjb: It's still open to debate whether this scripting feature is something that is needed or that we can always do without.  What does it help to solve.  Well, in practice we often use it to solve the problem of adapting the script to variable environments (running the same shell script in sh, bash, ksh, on various POSIX systems with different set of available external commands).
2020-02-02T16:13:10Z pjb: In the case of lisp scripts, I've used it to adapt to the presence of not of some features such as the LINUX package in clisp, or the availability of FFI.
2020-02-02T16:14:33Z pjb: This can be also performed by way of compilation-time configuration, when you compile on the system you run.  Which is the case with cl-launch, or (since I don't use cl-launch) when you agree to compile your program on the target system, which is often the case with lisp programs (we don't distribute binaries).
2020-02-02T16:15:56Z pjb: So, for now, I'm not sure scripting is really needed. Given the speed of our current computers, writing programs and configuring and compiling them is a satisfactory solution IMO.
2020-02-02T16:16:48Z pjb: Too bad for all those scripting languages invented those last 20 years (perl, python, ruby, etc), and the work on shell implementations…
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2020-02-02T16:25:52Z _death: suspect you mean 30 years ;)
2020-02-02T16:34:01Z pjb: Yes, time flies.
2020-02-02T16:36:01Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Hi. How do "static" variable in CL? I do (defun abc..., (let ((a 1)) ... (abc ...). After one recursion I got again 1, instead 2, 3, etc. I set a to other value (incf a), but (let ((a 1)) do again the same value.
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2020-02-02T16:36:48Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I want without optional argument.
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2020-02-02T16:38:47Z _death: you could (defvar *a* 1) (defun ... (incf *a*) ...), or (let ((a 1)) (defun abc ...)), or use load-time-value, or...
2020-02-02T16:40:55Z _death: since you mention recursion, maybe you want (defun abc ... (let ((a 1)) (labels ((inner ...)) (inner ...))))
2020-02-02T16:41:31Z Nilby: Tempus fugit, Lispus manebit.
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2020-02-02T16:42:39Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: CL doesn't provide local static variables. You can use a global dynamic variable (or a global symbol-macro which is lexical).  BUT on the other hand, you can have some kind of "static" VALUE, using load-time-value.
2020-02-02T16:43:32Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: (defun foo (x) (let ((counter (load-time-value (list 0)))) (incf (car counter) x)))  (foo 1) #| --> 1 |# (foo 0) #| --> 1 |# (foo 2) #| --> 3 |# (foo 0) #| --> 3 |#
2020-02-02T16:44:20Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: of course, since we have solutions, now YOU can implement static variables by defining some macro that will hide those details.
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2020-02-02T16:45:08Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Thank. But I want this option. (let ((a 1)) (defun abc ...)). Not works.
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2020-02-02T16:46:02Z pjb: asdf_asdf_asdf: it may work, but it has problems. LET doesn't preserve toplevelness (obviously). But it should work.
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2020-02-02T16:46:55Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (defun aaa (n o) (let ((a 1)) (defun xxx () (incf a))  (if (< a n) (progn (princ a) (aaa n o)))))
2020-02-02T16:47:28Z cl-arthur: asdf_asdf_asdf: do you want a local function inside aaa? Have a look at flet and labels if so.
2020-02-02T16:48:10Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I want increment value a about 1, after recustion I got again 1 instead 2.
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2020-02-02T16:52:17Z cl-arthur: Well, the first thing you do when entering aaa is to bind a to 1, after all. If you do Well, if you do (let ((a 1)) (defun counter () (incf a))), you can call counter any number of times and incf a each time. Why do you have a defun inside a defun?
2020-02-02T16:53:42Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I do recursion. a = 1; (incf a) a == 2 (aaa ...) a == 2; (incf a) a == 3, etc.
2020-02-02T16:54:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Now is. a = 1; (incf a) a == 2 (aaa ...) a == 1; (incf a) a == 2, etc.
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2020-02-02T17:09:48Z ebrasca: How to get logs from log4cl ?
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2020-02-02T17:25:03Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: Why don't you program in Common Lisp rather than just trying to use Common Lisp as you would use C?
2020-02-02T17:26:55Z _death: ebrasca: what do you mean? log messages go to loggers, which have appenders that do something with them, like writing to the console or to a file.. https://github.com/sharplispers/log4cl/#loggers-and-categories
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2020-02-02T17:27:24Z ebrasca: _death: I like to write log to some buffer.
2020-02-02T17:31:43Z _death: what kind of buffer?
2020-02-02T17:32:47Z ebrasca: _death: I like to use it to create in Next browser some buffer with logs, like *message* from emacs.
2020-02-02T17:34:01Z _death: maybe you want to have a buffer that can provide an output stream
2020-02-02T17:35:03Z _death: so that when a user prints to the stream, the buffer is modified
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2020-02-02T17:38:42Z _death: then you can use a (subclass of) https://github.com/sharplispers/log4cl/blob/master/src/appender/appender.lisp#L103
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2020-02-02T17:44:11Z ebrasca: _death: Not sure what todo with this new class.
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2020-02-02T17:50:33Z _death: ebrasca: you can push an instance of it to the logger's appenders list.. you may even get away with just using https://github.com/7max/log4cl/blob/master/src/configurator.lisp#L83
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2020-02-02T18:37:11Z ebrasca: _death: Thanks!
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2020-02-02T19:36:11Z elderK: Hey guys, I was wondering how to handle cyclic dependencies in ASDF and if there's an equivalent of a forward-declaration or prototype in Lisp.
2020-02-02T19:36:19Z elderK: I've seen that you can declare ftype, etc.
2020-02-02T19:36:38Z elderK: The reason I ask, is that I have some generic functions, and the specializations require say, the use of some other functions.
2020-02-02T19:36:50Z elderK: But those other functions need to call the generics, or create instances of the specialized types.
2020-02-02T19:38:57Z asdf_asdf_asdf: elderk: "A generic function can be used in the same ways that an ordinary function can be used; specifically, a generic function can be used as an argument to funcall and apply, and can be given a global or a local name."
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2020-02-02T19:43:06Z elderK: asdf_asdf_asdf: Okay. So you're saying I can declare it ahead of time, just like a normal function?
2020-02-02T19:43:20Z elderK: I want to get rid of warnings from SBCL saying "Oh, you're using this before I know about it!"
2020-02-02T19:46:01Z asdf_asdf_asdf: elderK, You must put declaration before used. "Signature function" first. Next call function. At the end body function.
2020-02-02T19:47:05Z elderK: asdf_asdf_asdf: Would you mind providing a simple example?
2020-02-02T19:47:14Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (declare (ftype (function abc... (funcall abc ..., (defun abc () ...
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2020-02-02T19:55:58Z Bike: there aren't really forward declarations. you shouldn't be getting actual errors unless the function is actually called before it's defined
2020-02-02T19:56:16Z Bike: are you getting forward warnings?
2020-02-02T19:56:49Z _death: elderK: you can specify the generic functions in one place (a bunch of defgeneric forms) and have the methods with their bodies in another place
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2020-02-02T20:02:15Z aeth: I have never seen asdf answer a question with the correct answer.
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2020-02-02T20:12:25Z elderK: Thank you all :)
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2020-02-02T20:23:08Z francogrex: Hi any development in SICL? is an implementation ready yet?
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2020-02-02T20:24:17Z asdf_asdf_asdf: elderK, You mean https://cpy.pt/LEzTpRQq ?
2020-02-02T20:25:06Z aeth: asdf_asdf_asdf: that is not at all what elderK meant.
2020-02-02T20:25:38Z aeth: The library ASDF is pretty confusing in terms of when it evaluates things and that's the problem elderK is having. I've had that problem, too. I don't have a solution, though.
2020-02-02T20:26:12Z aeth: elderK: There is a UIOP:SYMBOL-FUNCALL, on the off chance that that's what you needed.
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2020-02-02T20:30:49Z aeth: elderK: Oh, my bad it's UIOP:SYMBOL-CAL
2020-02-02T20:31:39Z aeth: Oh, my bad, it's UIOP:SYMBOL-CALL :-p
2020-02-02T20:32:04Z aeth: https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/912e57b9495151aecfe39def208123ffd806d343/uiop/package.lisp#L53
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2020-02-02T20:34:35Z pfdietz: That's more for when even the package is not available.
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2020-02-02T20:36:29Z pfdietz: I've wanted an asdf/quicklisp extension that does the following:   when systems S1 and S2 have both been loaded, automatically load system S3.
2020-02-02T20:37:19Z pfdietz: The idea would be that S1 might have some generic function, and for S2 to work properly with it, S2 must define some methods for it.  But I don't want those methods defined unless both S1 and S2 are present.
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2020-02-02T20:41:19Z _death: there was asdf-system-connections
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2020-02-02T20:47:06Z pfdietz: That looks appropriate.
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2020-02-02T20:53:02Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Sorry for misleading. In C is void abc(int, int); abc(2, 4); void abc(int a, int b) { return a+b; }.
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2020-02-02T22:14:16Z CrazyPython: How do I make a CLisp macro that takes a number and a statement, and executes that statement that number of times? I've tried playing with "loop" and "defmacro," but no success.
2020-02-02T22:15:27Z _death: CrazyPython: can you write a form that executes (print 'hi) a number of times?
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2020-02-02T22:16:25Z CrazyPython: (loop repeat 5 collect (print 1))
2020-02-02T22:16:31Z CrazyPython: _death
2020-02-02T22:16:42Z _death: ok, this collects the result too, is it what you want?
2020-02-02T22:17:07Z no-defun-allowed: clhs dotimes
2020-02-02T22:17:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm
2020-02-02T22:17:30Z CrazyPython: _death: I don't care if it collects the result or not
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2020-02-02T22:17:34Z no-defun-allowed: Note that the language is called Common Lisp, and the thing you evaluate multiple times is a form.
2020-02-02T22:18:36Z CrazyPython: no-defun-allowed: thanks for the note
2020-02-02T22:18:55Z _death: CrazyPython: ok.. now suppose you already have the macro, how would you use it to do the same?
2020-02-02T22:18:58Z CrazyPython: (defmacro repeat (n f)
2020-02-02T22:18:58Z CrazyPython:   (list
2020-02-02T22:18:58Z CrazyPython:     'loop repeat n collect f)
2020-02-02T22:19:00Z CrazyPython: )
2020-02-02T22:19:02Z CrazyPython: doesn’t work
2020-02-02T22:19:07Z CrazyPython: (repeat 5 (print 1)) like that
2020-02-02T22:19:51Z _death: good, so you figured out the parameters the macro would take (although maybe you want it to take more than one form to repeat)
2020-02-02T22:21:26Z _death: CrazyPython: your need to build a list that looks like (loop repeat 5 collect (print 1))
2020-02-02T22:22:34Z CrazyPython: (defmacro repeat (n f)
2020-02-02T22:22:34Z CrazyPython:   (list 'loop repeat n collect (f))
2020-02-02T22:22:34Z CrazyPython: )
2020-02-02T22:22:36Z CrazyPython: doesn’t work either, I’m doing something wrong
2020-02-02T22:23:12Z Shinmera: listen to what the compiler is telling you
2020-02-02T22:23:12Z _death: CrazyPython: do you know what the quote operator does?
2020-02-02T22:23:44Z CrazyPython: n..not really?
2020-02-02T22:24:24Z CrazyPython: I have no clue where I'd use it
2020-02-02T22:25:20Z _death: the quote (like in "'loop") is read by the reader and turned into the form (quote loop)
2020-02-02T22:25:40Z _death: the quote operator returns its argument without evaluating it
2020-02-02T22:25:52Z _death: so (quote loop) => loop
2020-02-02T22:26:29Z _death: now you have repeat there.. because it's not quoted, an attempt is made to evaluate it
2020-02-02T22:26:30Z CrazyPython: (defmacro repeat (n f)
2020-02-02T22:26:30Z CrazyPython:   '(loop repeat n collect (f))
2020-02-02T22:26:30Z CrazyPython: )
2020-02-02T22:26:32Z CrazyPython: gets me “variable n is unbound”
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2020-02-02T22:26:42Z CrazyPython: _death: go on
2020-02-02T22:27:07Z _death: (list 'loop) returns a list with the symbol loop: (loop)
2020-02-02T22:28:04Z _death: LIST is a function and its arguments are evaluated before it is called
2020-02-02T22:28:27Z _death: 'LOOP evaluates to LOOP
2020-02-02T22:28:31Z CrazyPython: is LIST the same as () ?
2020-02-02T22:28:37Z _death: what does REPEAT evaluate to?
2020-02-02T22:28:50Z CrazyPython: _death: repeat evaluates to an unbound local variable
2020-02-02T22:29:08Z _death: right.. and you want to create a list where the second element is the REPEAT symbol itself
2020-02-02T22:29:55Z CrazyPython: yes
2020-02-02T22:30:05Z CrazyPython: I tried this
2020-02-02T22:30:05Z CrazyPython: (defmacro repeat (n f)
2020-02-02T22:30:05Z CrazyPython:   (list 'loop 'repeat n 'collect (f))
2020-02-02T22:30:07Z CrazyPython: )
2020-02-02T22:30:26Z Bike: (list f)?
2020-02-02T22:30:30Z CrazyPython: '[..] invoked undefined function [..]'
2020-02-02T22:30:44Z Bike: yeah, it tries to call a function called f, at macroexpansion time.
2020-02-02T22:31:03Z Bike: in the same way (list 'loop ...) calls a function called list at macroexpansion time.
2020-02-02T22:31:08Z _death: that's progress, but what are you doing with that last arugment to LIST?
2020-02-02T22:31:39Z CrazyPython: _death: Bike says I'm evaluating f at macroexpansion time
2020-02-02T22:32:02Z _death: I mean, why did you write it like that?
2020-02-02T22:32:20Z CrazyPython: I suppose I could quote f and n too, but then how would SBCL know the difference between a literal word repeat and the expression "n"?
2020-02-02T22:32:37Z _death: you're right, you shouldn't quote them
2020-02-02T22:33:16Z CrazyPython: (defmacro repeat (n f)
2020-02-02T22:33:16Z CrazyPython:   (list 'loop 'repeat n 'collect f)
2020-02-02T22:33:16Z CrazyPython: )
2020-02-02T22:33:18Z CrazyPython: works!
2020-02-02T22:33:20Z _death: in your macro, you can print the arguments before returning the list: (format t "N=~S and F=~S~%" n f)
2020-02-02T22:33:33Z CrazyPython: Thank you; onto the next part of my DSL
2020-02-02T22:33:34Z _death: yes
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2020-02-02T22:35:14Z _death: maybe before you continue it's best to read about the fundamentals again
2020-02-02T22:35:44Z _death: like evaluation and how to print things so that you can debug them more easily
2020-02-02T22:37:05Z CrazyPython: I was trying to use the 'learn x in y minutes' tutorial, which didn't teach me fundamentals; is "Practical Common Lisp" a different good place to start?
2020-02-02T22:37:13Z _death: yes
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2020-02-02T22:43:41Z CrazyPython: I'm trying to create a macro "gen" that defines a global variable with a name and sets it to a random number from 1 to 100. I already wrote a function, randint, that does the random number part.
2020-02-02T22:43:43Z CrazyPython: (defmacro gen (name start finish)
2020-02-02T22:43:43Z CrazyPython:   (list
2020-02-02T22:43:43Z CrazyPython:     'let ((num ('randint start finish)))
2020-02-02T22:43:45Z CrazyPython:         ('defparameter name
2020-02-02T22:43:47Z CrazyPython:             num
2020-02-02T22:43:49Z CrazyPython:         )
2020-02-02T22:43:51Z CrazyPython:         num
2020-02-02T22:43:53Z CrazyPython:   )
2020-02-02T22:43:55Z CrazyPython: )
2020-02-02T22:43:57Z CrazyPython: Doesn't work
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2020-02-02T22:46:25Z no-defun-allowed: Could you please use a paste site for anything longer than a couple of lines, and/or collect your dangling )s and deposit them at the end of the last line?
2020-02-02T22:46:34Z CrazyPython: I shall
2020-02-02T22:47:17Z no-defun-allowed: It might be less annoying to use quasiquotation when creating larger forms in macros, too.
2020-02-02T22:47:18Z CrazyPython: the "gen" expression should evaluate to the generated random number
2020-02-02T22:48:04Z _death: no-defun-allowed: before introducing backquote, may be more beneficial to get it right with plain code
2020-02-02T22:48:17Z no-defun-allowed: For example, the macro body would be `(let ((num (randint ,start ,finish))) (defparameter ,name num) num)
2020-02-02T22:48:42Z no-defun-allowed: I think it "looks" a lot more like the code you want to see, so it may or may not be easier to write.
2020-02-02T22:49:17Z _death: no-defun-allowed: for a person learning the basics of lisp, jumping to backquote before understanding evaluation is a misstep
2020-02-02T22:49:26Z asarch: Is there any debugger tool to check internally the memory, processes and so on?
2020-02-02T22:52:16Z CrazyPython: yay I got it to work
2020-02-02T22:53:12Z no-defun-allowed: _death: Yeah, fair enough.
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2020-02-02T22:55:59Z CrazyPython: I have a file which defines the functions and macros for my DSL. I also have a file that is written in this DSL. Is there a standard operating procedure for running the file written in my DSL from the CLI?
2020-02-02T22:57:11Z CrazyPython: Right now I'm thinking function dsl() { sbcl <(cat generator.lisp "$1") }
2020-02-02T22:57:17Z CrazyPython: where "generator.lisp" is the header
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2020-02-02T22:59:29Z no-defun-allowed: (load "dsl-functions-and-macros") (load "dsl-program")
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2020-02-02T23:02:22Z CrazyPython: my DSL is a simple thing for non-deterministically generating files witht numbers inside; I want to quickly save&run from CLI
2020-02-02T23:06:46Z _death: if you download portacle you get an environment with emacs and slime set up, then the Lisp read eval print loop can serve as the console
2020-02-02T23:08:43Z mfiano: With the MOP, is there a portable way to get the most applicable :AFTER method object of SHARED-INITIALIZE when called with a specific class? I was looking at COMPUTE-APPLICABLE-METHODS-USING-CLASSES, but that expects as its first argument a generic function and will work for REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE, but not SHARED-INITIALIZE because it takes 2 required arguments.
2020-02-02T23:09:55Z _death: mfiano: eh? why wouldn't it work?
2020-02-02T23:10:37Z Bike: the second argument will probably not be specialized on, and you can just pass (class-of t)
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2020-02-02T23:11:12Z mfiano: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/7fe772501b166b8a4bf729021f08f72a because I'm doing something wrong :)
2020-02-02T23:11:52Z mfiano: oops updated
2020-02-02T23:12:11Z _death: well, it's using CLASSES not CLASS
2020-02-02T23:12:30Z mfiano: ahhh yes
2020-02-02T23:13:25Z mfiano: Thank you
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2020-02-02T23:51:43Z pfdietz: +
2020-02-02T23:51:46Z pfdietz: -...….…………………..
2020-02-02T23:51:59Z pfdietz: When the cat sprawls on your keyboard.
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2020-02-02T23:52:43Z no-defun-allowed: That looks like a very boring Brainfuck program.
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2020-02-03T00:00:09Z antoszka: ;)
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2020-02-03T01:29:28Z brandelune: phoe I was checking the UltraSpec but there is nothing in the GH repositories. Is there a problem there ?
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2020-02-03T01:31:45Z mfiano: brandelune: What are you looking for?
2020-02-03T01:31:54Z mfiano: He abandoned CLUS a couple years ago
2020-02-03T01:32:01Z brandelune: oh
2020-02-03T01:32:04Z mfiano: The project lives https://github.com/phoe/clus-data
2020-02-03T01:32:15Z mfiano: lives at*. It doesn't live anymore
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2020-02-03T01:32:40Z brandelune: I was checking this:
2020-02-03T01:32:40Z brandelune: https://github.com/UltraSpec
2020-02-03T01:33:25Z brandelune: even https://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php is very incomplete
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2020-02-03T01:33:41Z brandelune: is there anybody who has taken over ?
2020-02-03T01:34:36Z brandelune: the only place I could find with a free version of the documentation is:
2020-02-03T01:34:37Z brandelune: https://github.com/LispLang/ansi-spec
2020-02-03T01:34:40Z mfiano: No
2020-02-03T01:35:13Z brandelune: Is there a reason for that ?
2020-02-03T01:35:18Z brandelune: I mean legal
2020-02-03T01:35:44Z brandelune: Is there anybody to accept PRs there ?
2020-02-03T01:36:11Z mfiano: The project is quite ambitious and requires a lot of time. I think those experienced enough with CL to pull something of this magnitude off would rather use the language itself.
2020-02-03T01:36:44Z no-defun-allowed: How do I silence SBCL's compiler notes for one invocation of COMPILE?
2020-02-03T01:36:59Z mfiano: locally declare
2020-02-03T01:38:03Z no-defun-allowed: Something like (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)?
2020-02-03T01:38:31Z mfiano: (locally (declare #+sbcl (sb-ext:muffle-conditions sb-ext:compiler-note)) ...)
2020-02-03T01:39:34Z brandelune: documentation is usually not for people who are experienced enough to "use the language itself"...
2020-02-03T01:40:07Z brandelune: mfiano, thank you very much for the informations. Off to work now.
2020-02-03T01:40:29Z mfiano: A specification is not documentation. It is a contract between implementors and the language.
2020-02-03T01:41:59Z brandelune: Is there a place where one can find proper reference for CL ?
2020-02-03T01:42:18Z brandelune: Something like the elisp reference manual ?
2020-02-03T01:42:22Z mfiano: THe HyperSpec or the draft specification
2020-02-03T01:43:06Z brandelune: neither are free documentation
2020-02-03T01:43:18Z mfiano: Both are
2020-02-03T01:43:18Z brandelune: and the draft seems to currently be unavailable
2020-02-03T01:43:27Z brandelune: I could not find a site to download it.
2020-02-03T01:43:41Z dlowe: https://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2020-02-03T01:43:44Z dlowe: oops, not that
2020-02-03T01:43:49Z dlowe: https://github.com/xach/dpans
2020-02-03T01:43:50Z dlowe: that
2020-02-03T01:44:09Z mfiano: You didn't look very hard then.
2020-02-03T01:44:14Z mfiano: It's on LispWorks site
2020-02-03T01:44:20Z mfiano: http://www.lispworks.com/downloads/documentation.html
2020-02-03T01:44:27Z brandelune: links are dead there
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2020-02-03T01:44:47Z mfiano: They are not
2020-02-03T01:45:02Z brandelune: http://www.ncits.org/tc_home/j13.htm
2020-02-03T01:45:06Z brandelune: dead
2020-02-03T01:45:12Z mfiano: That is not the link I gave you
2020-02-03T01:45:41Z brandelune: that's the link on the lispworks doc page
2020-02-03T01:46:13Z mfiano: The tarball is located on lispworks.com
2020-02-03T01:46:19Z mfiano: Linked right on the page I supplied
2020-02-03T01:47:08Z brandelune: the hyperspec is not free. I can't modify it, like use better css or things like this.
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2020-02-03T01:47:25Z brandelune: free as in "free software/free documentation".
2020-02-03T01:47:59Z brandelune: I can't read the small characters on the images. I can't change the images to things that I can use.
2020-02-03T01:48:03Z brandelune: etc.
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2020-02-03T01:48:14Z no-defun-allowed: wrt better CSS, I don't think anyone can go after you if you use a browser extension to insert CSS into the copy of the page your browser renders. I did that for a while.
2020-02-03T01:48:54Z mfiano: I see now that he was just trolling more than likely
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2020-02-03T01:55:40Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I do that for Hacker News, to add a max width to the comments so it's actually readable fullscreen on desktop
2020-02-03T01:56:01Z aeth: And, really, the only reason I don't do that for all old-style websites without a maximum width is laziness. Wikipedia seems to be hard to do this on. I couldn't get it to work
2020-02-03T01:56:36Z aeth: Another thing that helps is to set your browser's default font to a sans serif like most websites use so it doesn't look out of place when the ancient web page doesn't specify a font
2020-02-03T01:57:22Z loke: aeth: Why would you fullscreen a browser window on a desktop?
2020-02-03T01:58:41Z aeth: loke: because with a tiling window manager, 2/3 width is usually hard to do, so it's either fullscreen (the default) or 1/2 screen (too narrow, and sites might serve you a mobile version because it's narrow)
2020-02-03T01:59:19Z loke: aeth: Stump?
2020-02-03T01:59:33Z aeth: I used to be able to do 2/3 width in stumpwm, but they changed the default behavior of balancing after opening/closing splits to make it auto-rebalance such that you keep getting 1/2 width splits, which are useless for browsers
2020-02-03T01:59:35Z loke: I configured predefined layouts for browser windows in Stump for tht reason
2020-02-03T01:59:51Z loke: Just a few lines of Lisp code
2020-02-03T02:00:00Z aeth: I mean, maybe you can really detailed mess around with it, but it's not a few keystrokes away like in the old behavior
2020-02-03T02:00:32Z loke: I thoughtit was? Can't you just adjust the way you want them and save the definition? That's what I did and it works fine.
2020-02-03T02:00:43Z loke: Actually, for that to work you don't even need to code
2020-02-03T02:01:22Z aeth: loke: 5 years ago in stumpwm, if you split down the middle twice like [ | |   ] and then closed the correct pane you'd get [   |     ] 2/3 1/3 split (either direction) so it was just a few keystrokes
2020-02-03T02:01:32Z aeth: loke: but now iirc you just get it to rebalance it back to [   |   ]
2020-02-03T02:01:47Z aeth: I'm sure you can still get 2/3 width, but it's not just a few keystrokes in muscle memory
2020-02-03T02:01:58Z loke: Ah. I simply never split/join for the groups where I keep browser windows.
2020-02-03T02:02:14Z loke: I arerly split at all, since by groups have predefined splits that are perfectly adjusted.
2020-02-03T02:02:20Z loke: s/by/my/
2020-02-03T02:02:58Z aeth: loke: the problem is some sites (mostly the older ones, with no maximum width) are better 2/3 width and some (e.g. YouTube) are better 100% width, so it's not like you can just keep the browser at the same width for an entire browsing session for optimal experience.
2020-02-03T02:03:21Z aeth: In a regular window manager, you'd just configure it to set windowed to be 2/3 width (1280) and then maximize on the sites that are best used maximized
2020-02-03T02:03:34Z aeth: I don't think stumpwm is really on topic here, though
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2020-02-03T02:08:25Z loke: Why not? It's not like anything else is being duidscussed at the moemnt?
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2020-02-03T02:09:03Z loke: aeth: I just do <prefix>-F11 when I want something maximised (which is quite rarely)
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2020-02-03T02:13:53Z aeth: loke: iirc that's fullscreen, not maximized, although there isn't that huge of a distinction when there's no window decoration
2020-02-03T02:15:27Z loke: Exactl.y
2020-02-03T02:15:59Z loke: And to me, there is even less difference since I don't use maximised windows it much.
2020-02-03T02:20:43Z aeth: I actually use almost exclusively maximized windows when I'm using a tiling window manager vs. not, where I'm more likely to tolerate a bunch of irregularly sized windows that come up at whatever size they come up at
2020-02-03T02:21:08Z aeth: I have two monitors for my desktop, and those are usually good enough "tiles" for most tasks, that one split.
2020-02-03T02:21:18Z aeth: If I had three monitors, I'd probably NEVER split.
2020-02-03T02:21:44Z loke: aeth: But a terminal window would have a this strip of content to the lefft and the rest completely empty
2020-02-03T02:21:57Z loke: I can't stand that. I have at least three terminals side by side
2020-02-03T02:22:04Z loke: Maybe 4 depending on monitor size
2020-02-03T02:22:07Z aeth: loke: I tile my terminal internally with tmux when I want it tiled.
2020-02-03T02:22:11Z aeth: Same with Emacs
2020-02-03T02:22:16Z loke: Oh
2020-02-03T02:22:17Z aeth: So most of my tiling is done by the application
2020-02-03T02:22:48Z loke: I only ever split Emacs veritcally. I handle the horizontal split by having multiple emacs frames side by side, and map S-o in Emacs to switch to the next Emacs frame.
2020-02-03T02:22:50Z aeth: I only need to have the WM control the tiles when I'm on multiple machines simultaneously, where tmux obviously wouldn't work (or maybe there's some configuration)
2020-02-03T02:24:55Z aeth: I split Emacs into up to 4 columns (tiny font with a large display), and sometimes split those into as many as 2 each. When I run out (8 Emacs windows), I bring in the other monitor, and only then do the C-x 5 2, C-x 5 o etc.
2020-02-03T02:25:04Z aeth: I had to actually bring up emacs to test that because it's been a while
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2020-02-03T02:26:10Z aeth: I rarely put Emacs on two monitors, though, because I usually use the second one for Firefox and/or ("and" if it's an in-browser thing) the application I'm developing.
2020-02-03T02:27:16Z aeth: As far as a CL-driven graphical environment goes, though, I would be 95% happy with a replacement with GNU Emacs and the terminal. Well, the web browser, too, but that's asking too much.
2020-02-03T02:27:32Z aeth: s/replacement with/replacement for/
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2020-02-03T02:57:05Z loke: aeth: What about the next browser thingy? I tried to build it but failed so I never tried it.
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2020-02-03T03:50:12Z aeth: loke: "I tried to build it but failed" is the typical experience when you rely on massive FFI :-p
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2020-02-03T03:55:16Z loke: aeth: Yeah. I had that problem with Climaxima, so I ended up building an Appimage as well as Flatpak
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2020-02-03T04:03:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-03T04:14:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke: I've been experimenting with Iota to compile llvm bitcode to common lisp
2020-02-03T04:15:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: instead of using FFI to C, it works pretty well and bugs in the foreign code don't crash the image
2020-02-03T04:15:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2020-02-03T04:17:20Z no-defun-allowed: Silly question, but is it not possible to do something more like Zeta-C and represent pointers and structures in a way that doesn't require a byte array as a "heap"?
2020-02-03T04:18:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: no-defun-allowed: probably, what I've read about that strategy is that people often make assumptions about the result of sizeof
2020-02-03T04:18:39Z no-defun-allowed: True.
2020-02-03T04:18:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least, that's what vacietis says
2020-02-03T04:19:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: transpiling LLVM bitcode is more useful anyways
2020-02-03T04:19:26Z no-defun-allowed: Otherwise I think Iota is pretty cool, but it seems difficult to interface with Lisp for that reason.
2020-02-03T04:19:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because lots of languages can be made to produce bitcode
2020-02-03T04:20:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. ghc can compile Haskell to bitcode and Rust can be compiled to bitcode too
2020-02-03T04:20:43Z no-defun-allowed: The latter would be glorious to compile to Lisp.
2020-02-03T04:21:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: From my experiments with Iota, that'd probably be trivial
2020-02-03T04:21:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: (as long as it doesn't emit the handful of unsupported opcodes)
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2020-02-03T04:22:50Z no-defun-allowed: "Announcing Rust #.(incf version): - Compiler emits <unsupported LLVM instructions> to thwart demoralization by Lisp nerds"
2020-02-03T04:24:15Z no-defun-allowed: I should take a peep at how Iota handles the pointer things. int2ptr (I think that is the name) and ptr2int are going to be the worst to port though.
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2020-02-03T04:49:55Z asarch: If I do (let ((aka 10)) ...) and '(shiro), what's the difference between AKA and SHIRO? I mean, why I can't (setf (car (list (quote shiro)) 10))?
2020-02-03T04:51:18Z no-defun-allowed: The latter invokes undefined behaviour as it mutates constant data.
2020-02-03T04:51:45Z no-defun-allowed: If you SETQ or SETF AKA later, you replace the data.
2020-02-03T04:52:01Z LdBeth: instead of launch free missiles
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2020-02-03T04:57:52Z no-defun-allowed uploaded an image: setf.png (32KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/PZxKHknHddOTlmQikNMMZQyz >
2020-02-03T04:59:27Z no-defun-allowed: This box diagram might help show that (setf (car <a variable with a quoted list>) <value>) will change the quoted data, whereas (setf <a variable with a quoted value> <value>) does not.
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2020-02-03T05:02:09Z beach: Nice diagram.
2020-02-03T05:02:20Z beach: What did you make it with?
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2020-02-03T05:02:37Z no-defun-allowed: I just used Inkscape for that.
2020-02-03T05:02:52Z beach: OK, good to know.
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2020-02-03T05:47:41Z asarch: Thank you! Thank you very much! :-)
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2020-02-03T07:57:15Z phoe: brandelune: nothing in the GH repositories? What do you mean?
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2020-02-03T07:57:54Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data contains the repository as it was.
2020-02-03T07:59:55Z brandelune: phoe this https://github.com/UltraSpec
2020-02-03T08:00:12Z brandelune: it's only after that I was given your repository
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2020-02-03T08:14:11Z phoe: oh right
2020-02-03T08:14:18Z phoe: I never got around to filling that one with information.
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2020-02-03T09:01:02Z brandelune_: phoe are you still interested ? do you want help ?
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2020-02-03T09:02:51Z jackdaniel: if I were creating a project which shows the spec (or in fact any other) and wanted to add an adjective, it would be something like PeeweeSpec, or BitsySpec ;-)
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2020-02-03T09:06:55Z shka__: I like peewee
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2020-02-03T09:15:53Z splittist: Where does one get ecl these days? My ddg-fu is deficient :(
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2020-02-03T09:16:06Z no-defun-allowed: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl
2020-02-03T09:16:10Z jackdaniel: ^
2020-02-03T09:16:25Z jackdaniel: we also have a mirror at gitlab.common-lisp.net
2020-02-03T09:17:15Z jackdaniel: to answer the unavoidable question: no, we are not moving to github :)
2020-02-03T09:18:13Z splittist: Thanks.
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2020-02-03T09:57:04Z phoe: brandelune_: it's an old old project that might or might not be revived; I've realized that for most purposes CLHS is good enough of a reference and that the new Lisp Cookbook serves the purpose that I intended for other chapters of CLUS
2020-02-03T09:58:36Z brandelune_: I understand. My issue with CLHS is that it is not a free document. I can't even add a css or use readable images. Also, having the whole thing separated the way it is makes it hard to browse through the document and just discover things like I do when I read the elisp doc.
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2020-02-03T10:00:19Z loke: The teX source is freely available.
2020-02-03T10:00:41Z loke: Bu tit's written in a terrible way and it's practially impossible to process it into machine readable for without a lot of work.
2020-02-03T10:00:53Z loke: I started working on that a number of years back, and didn't get too far.
2020-02-03T10:01:26Z loke: Perhaps it'd be a good idea to pay someone to do it.
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2020-02-03T10:06:06Z brandelune_: loke Yes, I'm barely able to write a few pages of texinfo, I don't see myself working through 1000+ pages ot TeX...
2020-02-03T10:07:20Z brandelune_: just for the record, I sent a mail to lispworks asking if they could at least allow use for modified css or navigation images. Just that would tremendously improve the documentation
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2020-02-03T10:16:51Z p_l: AFAIK the only issue is with redistribution, but I don't know how thoughtcrime it is to modify things in your jurisdiction
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2020-02-03T10:29:52Z brandelune_: p_l :) thoughtcrime or not, the licence expressly forbids such use, redistribution or not.
2020-02-03T10:30:21Z p_l: brandelune_: ahh, so it *is* thoughtcrime in certain areas
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2020-02-03T10:32:20Z brandelune_: I guess. The licence is basically totally proprietary.
2020-02-03T10:34:14Z p_l: brandelune_: in many jurisdictions, most of the claims in any license do not apply except when you redistribute
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2020-02-03T10:35:26Z brandelune_: what's the point improving a documentation set if it is not for making the improvements available to the public?
2020-02-03T10:35:39Z p_l: while some conditions of use are enforced, I think provisions against modifications often aren't unless they are for the purpose of circumventing the terms on units used etc.
2020-02-03T10:36:02Z p_l: brandelune_: who said you can't propagate a program that transforms the documents?
2020-02-03T10:36:15Z p_l: so long as it doesn't have content of CLHS inside
2020-02-03T10:37:10Z brandelune_: I'd rather
2020-02-03T10:37:10Z brandelune_: 1) try to convince lispworks that they should provide a better licence, or an improved package
2020-02-03T10:37:10Z brandelune_: 2) short of that collaborate with people who are working on providing such a package
2020-02-03T10:37:54Z p_l: having an CSS stylesheet improving the looks is also useful ;) and can be shown as argument to LW
2020-02-03T10:38:16Z brandelune_: that's the contents of the mail I sent them :)
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2020-02-03T11:31:34Z phoe: brandelune_: AFAIK they are unable to do that
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2020-02-03T11:31:48Z phoe: they do not own all of the CLHS since it is directly based on the ANSI standard
2020-02-03T11:31:56Z phoe: which itself is proprietary and owned by ANSI
2020-02-03T11:33:06Z brandelune_: ok. And what about your project ? Have you definitely abandoned it ? Would you consider rebooting it with help ?
2020-02-03T11:34:12Z phoe: I have not abandoned it, I have put it on indefinite hold (;
2020-02-03T11:34:21Z phoe: and might think of reviving it, sure
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2020-02-03T11:46:37Z brandelune_: what kind of help do you need ?
2020-02-03T11:47:38Z phoe: ;; oh gods here come the hard questions
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2020-02-03T11:48:57Z phoe: I guess organizational help will be good - so I figure out what is already done there in the project
2020-02-03T11:49:33Z phoe: At one point, we planned to use ccldoc as the result documentation format and formatter - for which purpose I've managed to load and run ccldoc on SBCL instead of just CCL
2020-02-03T11:50:08Z phoe: we've also somewhat overzealously made edits to the resulting pages and then diffed them against the original sources to figure out what exactly we edited
2020-02-03T11:50:38Z phoe: the project is kind of a mess and it would be good to figure out what and how was done and what needs to be undone
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2020-02-03T11:59:33Z Shinmera: brandelune_: fwiw people have been writing userscripts and userstyles for ages and it's a fine way of distributing improvements to websites that can't be otherwise modified.
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2020-02-03T12:00:55Z brandelune_: phoe :) wow
2020-02-03T12:01:34Z brandelune_: Shinmera hence trying to convince Lispworks to do it themselves so that users don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime.
2020-02-03T12:02:04Z brandelune_: It would be just enough that they *explicitly* allow the use of external css and graphics.
2020-02-03T12:02:20Z Shinmera: ? what do you mean every time? You put the script up on greasyfork or whatever and people that hate the look so much can use that.
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2020-02-03T12:04:18Z brandelune_: One way to do that is just add a  <link rel="stylesheet" href="../../clhs.css" /> to all their pages
2020-02-03T12:04:59Z Shinmera: which is essentially what stylish/stylus do, just without requiring any action from the provider.
2020-02-03T12:05:56Z brandelune_: yes, except that the provider does not authorize such modifications.
2020-02-03T12:07:09Z Shinmera: it really doesn't matter.
2020-02-03T12:10:06Z brandelune_: (there is a link to a stylesheet though, just that laughingly underdeveloped)
2020-02-03T12:11:17Z brandelune_: Shinmera maybe it does matter to me, are you fine with that ? I'd rather see Lispworks free their documentation.
2020-02-03T12:11:28Z Shinmera: the clhs was made around 1995. CSS was not really much of a thing.
2020-02-03T12:11:47Z brandelune_: the latest copyright is 2005
2020-02-03T12:12:21Z brandelune_: I understand that they are not css experts in the first place, but they could take advice from people who are.
2020-02-03T12:12:26Z Shinmera: A lot of people have tried to change this. It never happened.
2020-02-03T12:12:52Z brandelune_: Hence the importance of projects like phoe 's
2020-02-03T12:13:28Z brandelune_: But whatever, I'm just procrastinating and blathering about stuff I have no understanding of.
2020-02-03T12:13:52Z brandelune_: I guess I just needed to vent today. Sorry for that.
2020-02-03T12:13:58Z Shinmera: I'm saying you can just leave it be a userstyle and move on to things that have better chance of success.
2020-02-03T12:14:22Z Shinmera: If you post about your userstyle on reddit and elsewhere I'm sure some people will appreciate the effort.
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2020-02-03T12:41:27Z brandelune_: Shinmera, indeed, a CLHS css competition to show Lispworks what can be done with their data :)
2020-02-03T12:45:48Z pfdietz: Xach:  chanl was patched two hours ago.
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2020-02-03T13:24:33Z ebzzry: How can you disable the reader macros when reading an expression?
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2020-02-03T13:37:58Z splittist: ebzzry: which reader macros? standard or user/programmer supplied?
2020-02-03T13:40:16Z ebzzry: splittist: the standard ones
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2020-02-03T13:42:45Z splittist: What would such a 'reader' do?
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2020-02-03T13:44:11Z jackdaniel: I suppose it would be useful for writing a custom reader
2020-02-03T13:44:25Z jackdaniel: ebzzry: you'd need to create an empty readtable and use it
2020-02-03T13:44:48Z jackdaniel: but without your own reader macros you won't be able to read anything
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2020-02-03T13:45:15Z jackdaniel: ebzzry: you may find this enlightening: https://lisper.in/reader-macros
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2020-02-03T13:45:31Z splittist: ebzzry: don't forget parentheses, quotes, semicolons (i.e. comments) are implemented as reader macros
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2020-02-03T13:45:58Z ebzzry: Yes. Thank you. What I only need are the parens.
2020-02-03T13:46:37Z jackdaniel: arguably you don't want Common Lisp reader then but rather something like esrap
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2020-02-03T13:47:30Z ebzzry: jackdaniel: I’ll take a look at it.
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2020-02-03T14:31:09Z ebrasca: Hi
2020-02-03T14:31:57Z sabrac: Hello
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2020-02-03T14:33:28Z phoe: heyyyy
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2020-02-03T14:38:08Z sabrac: phoe: 338760 passed tests later, my (as yet non-optimized) unicode normalization function works. So I can finish up the scram-sha-256 work and get back to your binary problem
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2020-02-03T14:41:18Z phoe: sabrac: <3
2020-02-03T14:41:21Z phoe: congrats
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2020-02-03T14:49:45Z Xach: pfdietz: frabjous day
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2020-02-03T15:04:28Z shka__: is using phrase "exception safety" in context of common lisp is acceptable?
2020-02-03T15:04:46Z shka__: or should i use something like "condition safety"
2020-02-03T15:04:55Z phoe: what exactly do you mean by "safety"
2020-02-03T15:06:52Z shka__: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_safety
2020-02-03T15:07:00Z shka__: phoe: nothing unusual
2020-02-03T15:08:08Z phoe: > Exception safety guarantees (...) are a set of contractual guidelines that class library implementers and clients can use when reasoning about exception handling safety in any programming language that uses exceptions (...)
2020-02-03T15:08:19Z Bike: well, those definitions are independent of the nature of the error handling/whatever
2020-02-03T15:08:21Z Bike: so sure why not
2020-02-03T15:08:28Z shka__: Bike: ok, thanks
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2020-02-03T15:08:48Z shka__: phoe: yes, like basic stuff
2020-02-03T15:09:02Z shka__: i don't have anything unusual in mind
2020-02-03T15:09:15Z phoe: I guess that Lisp conditions can be treated as exceptions if you treat INVOKE-DEBUGGER as if it was C++'s std::terminate
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2020-02-03T15:09:31Z phoe: so each ERROR call either is handled by some handler or the debugger is entered
2020-02-03T15:11:15Z shka__: well, yes, I just want to use common phrasing so people understand concept
2020-02-03T15:11:45Z Bike: you could add some wrinkles to account for restarts but it doesn't seem like it would be hugely different from the basic frame here
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2020-02-03T15:13:15Z shka__: Yes, i think so as well.
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2020-02-03T15:15:07Z phoe: from this point of view, restarts are mostly a debugger thing, unless you manually use INVOKE-RESTART in a condition handler
2020-02-03T15:15:27Z phoe: at which point they can be thought of as an extension of condition handlers
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2020-02-03T15:15:29Z Bike: that's kind of a big unless.
2020-02-03T15:15:37Z phoe: yes
2020-02-03T15:15:53Z phoe: but I assume that, for "exception safety" in Lisp, we lose the moment we enter the debugger
2020-02-03T15:16:29Z phoe: so everything that happens after that point in time (which is where restarts mostly come into play) doesn't matter anymore
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2020-02-03T15:16:52Z Bike: i mean look, you don't need to worry about whether there's a debugger or terminator or whatever. You could call a function that alters a data structure, and wrap the call in a handler-case, and consider whether the data structure is coherent at handling time. bam, strong exception safety
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2020-02-03T15:18:13Z Bike: you don't even need nonlocal exits for this analysis, i'd say. You could have a function that returns the altered data structure and a status, and analyze whether the data structure will be unchanged if the status is whatever error
2020-02-03T15:18:42Z phoe: hm
2020-02-03T15:18:44Z phoe: I see
2020-02-03T15:22:11Z phoe: oh wait - I was talking about the no-throw part
2020-02-03T15:23:14Z Bike: "always succeeds" is pretty straightforward i think. you could separate out "always succeeds but the caller might need to invoke some restarts"
2020-02-03T15:23:15Z phoe: yes, for everything else, you can talk about exception safety - since it refers directly to data cohesion in case of an "exception", or error in Lisp semantics, and/or resource leaks.
2020-02-03T15:23:54Z phoe: I guess that's a separate category for languages which have restart systems built-in, and C++ is not one of them
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2020-02-03T15:29:52Z pfdietz66: PL-I !
2020-02-03T15:33:21Z shka__: phoe: well, there is also stuff like: "ensure that threads are killed during non-local exit"
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2020-02-03T15:33:37Z shka__: or "files are closed"
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2020-02-03T15:33:52Z phoe: shka__: that's the non-leak property
2020-02-03T15:33:57Z shka__: even in CL you have resources to leak
2020-02-03T15:33:59Z phoe: so, basic safety I guess
2020-02-03T15:34:01Z phoe: yes
2020-02-03T15:34:06Z shka__: yup
2020-02-03T15:34:12Z shka__: which is exception safety
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2020-02-03T16:14:16Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: The issue was with typelib generation, the GIR files were malformed during library compilation
2020-02-03T16:14:39Z jmercouris: the g-ir-compiler/scanner had a bug in it which has been since been merged upstream
2020-02-03T16:16:31Z jmercouris: how to use https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection and make calls on the main thread?
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2020-02-03T16:22:33Z jackdaniel: I don't know what you are talking about, sorry
2020-02-03T16:22:58Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: apparoximately three weeks ago we discussed @rpath in dylib files and why cl-gobject-introspection was not loading a particular library
2020-02-03T16:24:03Z jackdaniel: oh, good for you that you've figured it out
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2020-02-03T16:24:19Z jmercouris: thank you
2020-02-03T16:25:30Z jmercouris: froggey: did you have to change any closure source for compilation?
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2020-02-03T17:48:46Z ebrasca: How to call some function with list in place of &rest rest ?
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2020-02-03T17:49:53Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (funcall func 'a 'b 'c 'd) I think.
2020-02-03T17:50:03Z boeg: ebrasca: do you mean you have the arguments in a list, and you want to call a function with the content of the list a arguments?
2020-02-03T17:50:28Z ebrasca: boeg: Yes I have argument in a list.
2020-02-03T17:50:30Z travv0: ebrasca: apply
2020-02-03T17:50:31Z boeg: if so, what asdf_asdf_asdf said
2020-02-03T17:50:54Z travv0: (apply #'+ '(1 2 3 4)) => 10
2020-02-03T17:50:58Z boeg: or travv0 :)
2020-02-03T17:51:26Z ebrasca: with apply how I pass first argument ?
2020-02-03T17:51:40Z ebrasca: Do I need to make lambda?
2020-02-03T17:51:59Z travv0: (apply #'+ 1 2 '(3 4)) => 10
2020-02-03T17:52:01Z phoe: You need to have a funcallable thing in there. So either a symbol or a function object.
2020-02-03T17:52:02Z travv0: like that
2020-02-03T17:52:15Z travv0: oh i misunderstood
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2020-02-03T17:55:08Z asdf_asdf_asdf: (defun abc (&rest a) (loop for i from 0 to (list-length a) collect (nth i a))) (funcall (function abc) 'a 'b 'c 'd) ; => (A B C D NIL) ; ebrasca look at
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2020-02-03T17:57:03Z ebrasca: ok it is working (apply #'mezzano.sync:wait-for-objects-with-timeout timeout (wait-list-%wait wait-list))
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2020-02-03T18:01:04Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: please don't offer help yet
2020-02-03T18:01:29Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, this is was good point.
2020-02-03T18:03:19Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I sometimes guess and impart a answer.
2020-02-03T18:03:30Z Xach: asdf_asdf_asdf: they have not yet been correct, please stop.
2020-02-03T18:03:42Z Xach: A guess is worse than nothing.
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2020-02-03T18:05:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: He answered too quickly, so I missed and not didn't make it fix it.
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2020-02-03T18:06:51Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I must answering, because I learn CL, yeah.
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2020-02-03T18:08:17Z wsinatra:  /mouse enable
2020-02-03T18:08:41Z phoe: 🐁
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2020-02-03T18:50:33Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I agree with Xach.  Please refrain from trying to help.  Lurk harder.
2020-02-03T18:51:27Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No lurk harder, no, only not this. I can, You can, all can.
2020-02-03T18:52:16Z beach: I think you have completely failed to appreciate the conventions of this channel.
2020-02-03T18:52:29Z phoe: asdf_asdf_asdf: in knowledge-requiring matters, trying to help when you don't know how to help tends to only worsen the problem
2020-02-03T18:53:24Z phoe: your example isn't even answering the original issue
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2020-02-03T18:53:50Z asdf_asdf_asdf: OK, I will see.
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2020-02-03T18:59:55Z beach: asdf_asdf_asdf: I am curious.  When you produce "answers" like that, is it that you are convinced that what you say is correct, or is it that you don't care whether you mislead the person needing help and simultaneously create noise for everybody and showing your ignorance?
2020-02-03T19:00:34Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, I for mislead say "sorry".
2020-02-03T19:00:57Z beach: Then I strongly suggest you only try to help when you are sure that you are right.
2020-02-03T19:02:07Z asdf_asdf_asdf: You too quickly make a answer and I not can make it.
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2020-02-03T19:06:46Z phoe: no one forces you to make one though
2020-02-03T19:12:38Z beach: Especially not a wrong one.
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2020-02-03T19:21:42Z phoe: ^
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2020-02-03T20:12:06Z ebrasca: asdf_asdf_asdf: It is not some competition for helping others.
2020-02-03T20:13:16Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Here are race to helping, yes of couse. This is very quickly answering. O yeah.
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2020-02-03T20:22:14Z phoe: this isn't stack overflow where you get karma for answering as fast as you can
2020-02-03T20:23:06Z phoe: and even if it was, you can get downvoted to oblivion on stackoverflow anyway
2020-02-03T20:25:39Z Shinmera: can we get asdf_asdf_asdf banned again? They already were before for the exact same stuff as is happening now and obviously they haven't learned anything by the ban.
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2020-02-03T20:26:51Z asdf_asdf_asdf: No, I do nothing. I can exit here.
2020-02-03T20:30:32Z asdf_asdf_asdf: I'm leaving because I trolling on the channel.
2020-02-03T20:31:33Z asdf_asdf_asdf: Because is trolling*, I don't trolling.
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2020-02-03T20:34:34Z Bike: epic
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2020-02-03T20:41:22Z ebrasca: \ban asdf_asdf_asdf
2020-02-03T20:42:23Z alandipert: to the extent none of us really know if we're right about something before suggesting, i'm not sure how i feel about asking others not to try to help, as a convention
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2020-02-03T20:45:51Z Xach: alandipert: I think this case relies on a history of inaccurate suggestions and a strong resistance to correction.
2020-02-03T20:46:11Z Xach: There is also a significant language barrier
2020-02-03T20:46:22Z Xach: both human and computer language
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2020-02-03T20:48:14Z phoe: it kind of gets annoying after a long while when a single person does that thing over and over while not reacting to suggestions and requests that they should stop and pay proper care to properly learning CL first
2020-02-03T20:51:42Z alandipert: just my .02. i read most of the traffic here and don't find myself annoyed. possibly i just have high tolerance to Internet, but i detect no ban-worthy ill will
2020-02-03T20:52:18Z Xach: I think there is a reaction to suggestions - the reaction is "Go to hell, you can't tell me what to do"
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2020-02-03T20:58:27Z alandipert: yeah i dunno, i'm not bothered by that i guess. i do what i can, but in the end ignorance suffers itself
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2020-02-03T21:01:51Z jackdaniel: ha, at last I'm not the most recent bad guy™ (/me passes the baton)
2020-02-03T21:09:06Z no-defun-allowed: They told me they were more interested in learning SBCL's FFI than Common Lisp, if that means anything.
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2020-02-03T21:09:35Z Bike: it's... kind of nonsensical?
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2020-02-03T21:11:23Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah.
2020-02-03T21:11:29Z cl-arthur: O.O
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2020-02-03T21:21:13Z phoe: clhs deftype
2020-02-03T21:21:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_deftp.htm
2020-02-03T21:21:17Z phoe: "Recursive expansion of the type specifier returned as the expansion must terminate, including the expansion of type specifiers which are nested within the expansion."
2020-02-03T21:22:07Z phoe: I kinda wonder what would happen if that clause accounted for short circuiting AND and OR type specifiers the way the respective macros work
2020-02-03T21:23:00Z phoe: (Other than the fact that it would likely break all sorts of current type system optimizations and introduce possible typechecking-time loops)
2020-02-03T21:23:32Z Bike: short circuiting, like, (and nil ...) = nil? determining that a type is bottom is turing complete
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2020-02-03T21:27:33Z phoe: yes, that thing
2020-02-03T21:28:54Z phoe: that would likely also allow recursive types, (deftype string-list () `(or null (cons string string-list))
2020-02-03T21:29:14Z phoe: but this is naive, as it will in turn is going to run in circles on circular lists
2020-02-03T21:30:27Z Bike: i mentioned this a while ago, but this kind of unrestricted recursion gets weird when you also have stuff like negation
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2020-02-03T21:33:49Z Bike: oh, no, it was just subtyping
2020-02-03T21:34:12Z Bike: under the usual rule you could show infinite-list = (cons t infinite-list) is a subtype of nil, which is weird
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2020-02-03T21:44:16Z phoe: hm
2020-02-03T21:44:17Z phoe: correct
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2020-02-03T23:54:16Z LdBeth: #-(feature-not-present) (progn (in-package "FOO")
2020-02-03T23:54:57Z LdBeth: is there any reason (in-package "FOO") not evaled at compile time?
2020-02-03T23:55:15Z LdBeth: I'm using CCL
2020-02-03T23:55:39Z phoe: ? (macroexpand-1 '(in-package :foo))
2020-02-03T23:55:39Z phoe: (EVAL-WHEN (:EXECUTE :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :COMPILE-TOPLEVEL) (CCL::SET-PACKAGE "FOO"))
2020-02-03T23:55:52Z phoe: can't reproduce on CCL 1.12-dev.5
2020-02-03T23:55:57Z phoe: there's :compile-toplevel there
2020-02-03T23:56:40Z LdBeth: phoe: I mean, although it macroexpands to eval-when, it is not treated as top-level in this case
2020-02-03T23:56:49Z phoe: how do you mean?
2020-02-03T23:57:08Z phoe: how is it not treated as toplevel?
2020-02-03T23:57:18Z LdBeth: > If the in-package form is a top level form, this assignment also occurs at compile time.
2020-02-03T23:57:50Z phoe: clhs 3.2.3.1
2020-02-03T23:57:51Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2020-02-03T23:57:53Z phoe: see point 3
2020-02-03T23:58:14Z phoe: if a toplevel form is a PROGN, each of its subforms is also toplevel
2020-02-03T23:58:34Z _death: LdBeth: do you expect the rest of the forms in the progn to be read with *package* bound to package "FOO"?
2020-02-03T23:58:44Z LdBeth: but I write a custom macro (defmlfun |compile| ... inside this progn and CCL says "Unbound variable: COMMON-LISP-USER::|compile|"
2020-02-03T23:58:49Z LdBeth: _death: yes
2020-02-03T23:59:09Z phoe: LdBeth: inside the same PROGN?
2020-02-03T23:59:10Z _death: LdBeth: you need to modify your expectations.. first, the progn form as a whole is read
2020-02-03T23:59:23Z phoe: it won't work for the reason _death is just describing
2020-02-03T23:59:25Z _death: LdBeth: then, each of its subforms is evaluated
2020-02-03T23:59:27Z no-defun-allowed: Can't do that, the whole form is read before the side effects of IN-PACKAGE happen.
2020-02-03T23:59:57Z LdBeth: _death: ah, I see
2020-02-04T00:00:18Z phoe: #-(or) (in-package :foo) #-(or) (progn (defmlfun ...) ...)
2020-02-04T00:00:21Z LdBeth: so that works for lisp machine though
2020-02-04T00:00:47Z no-defun-allowed: It won't work in Common Lisp though.
2020-02-04T00:00:54Z phoe: no idea what lisp machine does, maybe it has macroexpansion-time side effects of some sorts or some other weird behaviour
2020-02-04T00:03:11Z LdBeth: or allegro cl/lucid cl
2020-02-04T00:05:34Z LdBeth: phoe: yea, maybe
2020-02-04T00:05:57Z LdBeth: It could process these at read time
2020-02-04T00:11:12Z _death: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Ambitious.html
2020-02-04T00:16:09Z ebrasca: _death: Do you think Ambitious Evaluation is going to be default?
2020-02-04T00:19:38Z _death: ebrasca: default where?
2020-02-04T00:22:13Z ebrasca: _death: In all cl
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2020-02-04T00:26:03Z _death: ebrasca: no.. the Common Lisp has a standard now, and it not consistent with ambitious evaluation
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2020-02-04T00:27:43Z _death: you may write your own top-level that does that.. but don't expect all comforming CL programs to work
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2020-02-04T01:21:22Z LdBeth: _death: wait, isn't that only a readline related issue?
2020-02-04T01:25:04Z _death: did you read the whole article
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2020-02-04T01:34:02Z loke: _death: Looking at your link... This type of editing looks very smilar to how McCLIM handles it.
2020-02-04T01:36:52Z loke: Ah, and it's even referred to as lisp mchine styl
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2020-02-04T01:54:27Z asarch: How do you "return" a value, e.g., (let ((p (make-instance 'point))) ...) <- In this case, the object created with MAKE-INSTANCE
2020-02-04T01:54:56Z Bike: the return value of a let is the value of the last form
2020-02-04T01:55:01Z asarch: The only I can is the example from PCL (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda () (setf count (1+ count)))))
2020-02-04T01:55:21Z Bike: so, (let ((p (make-instance 'point))) ... p). or am i severely misinterpreting you here
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2020-02-04T01:56:36Z asarch: For example, using GTK+ widget, I need (let ((dialog (make-dialog)) ...), in this case, the (MAKE-DIALOG) function
2020-02-04T01:56:47Z asarch: (I suspect I will need a macro)
2020-02-04T01:58:49Z asarch: Something a la: (defmacro make-dialog () (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda () (setf count (1+ count))))))
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2020-02-04T01:59:27Z Bike: okay, like, wait. can you explain what you want to accomplish here in more detail?
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2020-02-04T01:59:43Z Bike: you want to define a make-dialog operator? that does what?
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2020-02-04T02:10:01Z no-defun-allowed: Silly question, has anyone written code before to randomly select a value where each value has a weight?
2020-02-04T02:16:39Z Bike: i don't have it lying around, but sure
2020-02-04T02:17:35Z Bike: have a table of (weight . value), generate a number in [0, sum of the weights), iterate over the table. might be a cleverer way to do it
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2020-02-04T02:20:55Z no-defun-allowed: Gotcha.
2020-02-04T02:22:22Z no-defun-allowed: I'll have to check if that could be slow for a large set of values (picking positions in an image).
2020-02-04T02:22:34Z Bike: like for ((a 1) (b 2) (c 1)) you generate (random 4), and then if it's < 1 return a, if < 3 return b, else return c
2020-02-04T02:22:56Z no-defun-allowed nods
2020-02-04T02:23:30Z loke: no-defun-allowed: You should be able to do it in O(1) memory and O(n) time.
2020-02-04T02:23:41Z loke: (single pass)
2020-02-04T02:24:12Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I can make some kind of decision tree to take it from O(n) comparisons to O(log n) comparisons (ignoring that I have to build the tree); but I would probably remove the positions from the set.
2020-02-04T02:24:35Z Bike: for some distributions it should be easier
2020-02-04T02:24:43Z Bike: like if it's normal you can use the box-muller transform, i think
2020-02-04T02:25:16Z Bike: oh, yeah you could do a binary tree probably
2020-02-04T02:26:06Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, I don't think this is one, since I intend to pick random pixels, but picking more pixels around edges.
2020-02-04T02:26:21Z no-defun-allowed: Most images sadly are not nice distributions.
2020-02-04T02:26:49Z Bike: oh hey there's a word for this, 'inverse transform sampling'. i had no idea
2020-02-04T02:27:06Z no-defun-allowed: Nice.
2020-02-04T02:29:12Z no-defun-allowed: Eh, that table should work well enough. I won't need to use it too frequently. Thanks Bike.
2020-02-04T02:29:39Z Bike: no prob
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2020-02-04T02:29:54Z LdBeth: how to specify in defsystem to instruct ASDF run certain functions after the system has been loaded
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2020-02-04T02:33:11Z loke: LdBeth: :perform (load-op :after (o c) (do-whataver))
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2020-02-04T04:56:17Z LdBeth: loke: thanks
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2020-02-04T05:04:52Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-02-04T05:05:27Z Josh_2: Morning beach
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2020-02-04T05:16:44Z ebrasca: Morning beach , Josh_2 !
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2020-02-04T05:25:39Z LdBeth: hello
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2020-02-04T07:19:31Z elderK: Hey guys, what's a good way of comparing symbols?
2020-02-04T07:19:46Z elderK: I ask because I'm writing a small interpreter (currently studying Lisp in Small Pieces.)
2020-02-04T07:20:08Z elderK: I'm having trouble because the symols in the lists that I'm trying to interpret, aren't the "same" as the ones the interpreter is comparing against, because I have a package for my interpreter.
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2020-02-04T07:20:23Z elderK: I was thinking of interning all the input symbols in the keyword package, and matching against them.
2020-02-04T07:22:03Z no-defun-allowed: You could use STRING= to compare their names.
2020-02-04T07:22:35Z no-defun-allowed: That may cause unsavoury things with uninterned symbols though; I would try to read the symbols in the interpreter's package.
2020-02-04T07:23:09Z elderK: no-defun-allowed: The thing is, I'm just handing the sexps to interpret to the function.
2020-02-04T07:23:26Z elderK: Say, k:interpret
2020-02-04T07:24:21Z Shinmera: you can just create a new package for your interpreter's runtime, import the relevant symbols from your intepreter there, and intern there as you read code.
2020-02-04T07:24:32Z Shinmera: then you can compare them with EQ
2020-02-04T07:26:07Z White_Flame: right, just like COMMON-LISP has all the language definitions in there, and COMMON-LISP-USER (CL-USER) imports CL but also is where your user code defaults to, without muddling up the core CL package
2020-02-04T07:26:26Z White_Flame: well, :USEs, not imports, as it's the package as a whole
2020-02-04T07:26:55Z Shinmera: same difference since the symbols in CL are fixed.
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2020-02-04T07:27:21Z White_Flame: so from within CL-USER, reading "FIND" will reference the symbol CL:FIND, while reading "FOO" will reference (or create) the symbol CL-USER::FOO
2020-02-04T07:27:56Z elderK: Thanks guys.
2020-02-04T07:27:57Z White_Flame: so even though you're not in the CL package, any symbols from CL will be EQ comparable with the CL symbols
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2020-02-04T07:28:03Z elderK: Problem is, my symbols are the ones for Scheme.
2020-02-04T07:28:28Z White_Flame: right, you have for example ELDERK-SCHEME:DEFINE.
2020-02-04T07:28:43Z White_Flame: but you're in the INTERPRETER package, for instance
2020-02-04T07:28:44Z elderK: White_Flame: How do I define the symbols in that package ahead of time?
2020-02-04T07:29:08Z White_Flame: (defpackage interpreter (:use elderk-scheme))
2020-02-04T07:29:25Z White_Flame: that will set up the exact same relationship as CL-USER has with CL
2020-02-04T07:29:26Z elderK: White_Flame: I mean in the elderk-scheme package.
2020-02-04T07:29:37Z White_Flame: oh, you just have to export the relevant symbols
2020-02-04T07:29:42Z elderK: Cool
2020-02-04T07:29:58Z elderK: So, as the interpreter processes the tree it is fed, it will intern those symbols in the elderk-scheme package.
2020-02-04T07:30:08Z elderK: That will return the ones I care about, and probably create junk symbols :P
2020-02-04T07:30:13Z White_Flame: using the default lisp reader, and with the current package being INTERPRETER, yes
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2020-02-04T07:30:43Z elderK: Thank you :)
2020-02-04T07:30:48Z White_Flame: the new/junk symbols will be unexported symbols in the INTERPRETER package
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2020-02-04T07:36:35Z elderK: Thanks a bunch :)
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2020-02-04T08:09:16Z asarch: Sorry, I had to leave a while ago
2020-02-04T08:09:25Z asarch: So, what actually I need is:
2020-02-04T08:09:42Z asarch: 1. Create the object: (setf p (make-instance 'point))
2020-02-04T08:10:17Z asarch: 2. Set some properties (in a more elaborate way): (setf (x p) 10) (setf (y p) 12) (setf (z p) 33)
2020-02-04T08:10:35Z asarch: 3. And return this new object with its properties
2020-02-04T08:11:03Z asarch: Following the example fro PCL (http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html): (defparameter *fn* (let ((count 0)) #'(lambda () (setf count (1+ count)))))
2020-02-04T08:11:12Z asarch: I have this: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587764
2020-02-04T08:11:50Z asarch: But, you know, is it correct?
2020-02-04T08:12:38Z no-defun-allowed: Why do you need the let/lambda/funcall in LAPIZ? I believe that should all be unnecessary.
2020-02-04T08:12:55Z pjb: asarch: there is no new object.
2020-02-04T08:13:17Z asarch: The three steps would go in a (defun make-tacos () ...) function so I could just (let ((cerveza (make-tacos))) ...)
2020-02-04T08:13:28Z no-defun-allowed: And why can't you just (make-instance 'point :x 9 :y 8 :z 7)?
2020-02-04T08:13:32Z pjb: asarch: dummy is useless in your code.
2020-02-04T08:13:55Z pjb: You can write: (setf (x p) 10  (y p) 12  (z p) 33)  (better with newlines).
2020-02-04T08:13:57Z no-defun-allowed: You need exactly one step, which is to create an object with the right initargs.
2020-02-04T08:14:17Z pjb: asarch: you may also use :initarg and do all in one call: (make-instance 'point :x 10 :y 12 :z 33)
2020-02-04T08:14:48Z pjb: (defclass point () ((x :initarg :x :accessor x) (y :initarg :y :accessor y) (z :initarg :z :accessor z)))
2020-02-04T08:14:51Z asarch: no-defun-allowed, because the real code for this operation would be something like ((widget :initform (gtk-builder-get-object (gtk-builder-set-from-file (make-instance 'gtk-builder) "dialog.glade") "dialog")...)
2020-02-04T08:15:37Z asarch: And the dialog has about ~20 different widgets :-(
2020-02-04T08:15:41Z pjb: asarch: otherwise, your code is perfectly correct, in that it prints: Values: (9, 8, 7)
2020-02-04T08:15:54Z asarch: YES!!! \o/
2020-02-04T08:16:13Z pjb: asarch: you can still use :initarg when you have a lot of things to put in it.
2020-02-04T08:16:42Z asarch: In the real code, I need something like (let ((dialog (make-editor-dialog))) ...) and voilá!
2020-02-04T08:16:50Z pjb: asarch: the only reason you would have to use setf on an object, is if there are some circularities. eg if you want a reference of A in B and of B in A…
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2020-02-04T08:18:04Z asarch: The MAKE-EDITOR-DIALOG will do among other things, create and initialize every widget in the dialog including reading some values from a PostgreSQL cluster, define the correct callbacks for every widget, validation, etc
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2020-02-04T08:18:40Z asarch: How would you these three steps?
2020-02-04T08:18:43Z pjb: (dialog (widget …)  (widget …)  (widget …) …)
2020-02-04T08:18:55Z pjb: asarch: don't start thinking in terms of make-instance.
2020-02-04T08:19:08Z pjb: asarch: start thinking how you could describe the thing using sexps.
2020-02-04T08:20:09Z pjb: Things are often hierarchical, so lists of lists is a good way to represent them.
2020-02-04T08:20:44Z asarch: Without dummy, I would get:
2020-02-04T08:21:01Z asarch: There is no applicable method for the generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION COMMON-LISP-USER::X (1)> when called with arguments
2020-02-04T08:21:04Z pjb: Once you have a satisfactory description  (something that seem to make sense to you), you can implement the "operators", ie. the symbols that start those lists, as functions or macros, to build an object tree to represent your thing.
2020-02-04T08:21:07Z asarch: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587764
2020-02-04T08:21:28Z pjb: There is still dummy. What are you talking about?
2020-02-04T08:21:45Z asarch: D'oh! Wrong paste: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587765
2020-02-04T08:21:48Z asarch: Sorry, sorry
2020-02-04T08:21:50Z asarch: :'-(
2020-02-04T08:21:53Z pjb: return tamal !!!
2020-02-04T08:22:06Z asarch: How?
2020-02-04T08:22:09Z pjb: tamal
2020-02-04T08:22:32Z pjb: Also, there's no point to make a closure there…
2020-02-04T08:22:51Z pjb: I shown you the simple way to do it!!!
2020-02-04T08:22:58Z asarch: Please!
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2020-02-04T08:23:09Z pjb: Just write: (defclass point () ((x :initarg :x :accessor x) (y :initarg :y :accessor y) (z :initarg :z :accessor z))) and: (make-instance 'point :x 10 :y 12 :z 33)
2020-02-04T08:23:30Z pjb: (defun lapiz () (make-instance 'point :x 10 :y 12 :z 33))
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2020-02-04T08:25:09Z ck_: Many exclamation points. I found this video after searching for the phrase "intense music for lisp discussion": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCLT0HNJLWw
2020-02-04T08:25:58Z asarch: Yeah, it worked!: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587766
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2020-02-04T08:27:25Z no-defun-allowed: Τι διάολο?
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2020-02-04T08:27:47Z pjb: asarch: but it is still ridiculous, and make you look as a uncool newbie.
2020-02-04T08:27:53Z no-defun-allowed: Why can't you drop the outer LET and remove the LAMBDA/FUNCALL pair?
2020-02-04T08:28:15Z ck_: but where would the funcionality be in that simple solution
2020-02-04T08:28:44Z pjb: asarch: why would you want to make it more complex than: (defun lapiz () (make-instance 'point :x 10 :y 12 :z 33))?
2020-02-04T08:28:48Z White_Flame: is there an obfuscated Lisp contest that I missed?
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2020-02-04T08:29:05Z ck_: you obviously need funcalls and lambdas, I mean, it's called functional programming
2020-02-04T08:29:09Z asarch: Well, this is a very simple example
2020-02-04T08:29:22Z asarch: A very, very, very
2020-02-04T08:29:52Z no-defun-allowed: It works, but it's redundant.
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2020-02-04T08:30:00Z ck_: White_Flame: looks more baroque, with frills and embelishments ;)
2020-02-04T08:30:24Z no-defun-allowed: Then hopefully, you can have your less simple version follow the form of the simple example.
2020-02-04T08:31:04Z pjb: asarch: ok.
2020-02-04T08:31:43Z asarch: (defun make-tamalito () (setf p (make-instance 'point)) (setf (x p) 10) (setf (y p) 12) (setf (z p) 12) p)
2020-02-04T08:31:51Z asarch: ?
2020-02-04T08:32:00Z no-defun-allowed: And if you don't want to put a complex form in the :initform for a slot in DEFCLASS, you can write an :AFTER method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE that sets the slots appropriately.
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2020-02-04T08:32:22Z asarch: How?
2020-02-04T08:32:53Z asarch: I mean, following this very, very, very, simple example?
2020-02-04T08:33:06Z Cymew: That paste is a very complex example.
2020-02-04T08:33:20Z no-defun-allowed: (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((application application) &key) (setf (widget application) (gtk:crap-goes-here ...)))
2020-02-04T08:33:26Z asarch: Which one?
2020-02-04T08:33:37Z White_Flame: simple = having few parts, complex = having many interconnected parts
2020-02-04T08:33:44Z Cymew: The MAKE-INSTANCE that uses FUNCALL.
2020-02-04T08:33:51Z White_Flame: if you use a ton of different clauses to represent something that can be represented in 1, then it's by definition complex
2020-02-04T08:33:56Z Cymew: Right.
2020-02-04T08:34:07Z no-defun-allowed: And I think that a point is not really a comparable example, because you are expected to make multiple instances of points with very different values.
2020-02-04T08:34:30Z Cymew: Write code for the most concise general case.
2020-02-04T08:34:35Z pjb: asarch: you have an undefined variable p above.
2020-02-04T08:34:42Z pjb: asarch: use LET !!!
2020-02-04T08:34:45Z no-defun-allowed: Meanwhile, you will probably only have one application at a time, and the slot values aren't usually changed by the user.
2020-02-04T08:34:56Z asarch: pjb: Bingo! \o/
2020-02-04T08:35:40Z no-defun-allowed: You can't call bingo yet; you need to have five successes in a row for that.
2020-02-04T08:35:50Z asarch: (defun make-tamalito () (let ((p (make-instance 'point))) (setf (x p) 10) (setf (y p) 12) (setf (z p) 12) p))
2020-02-04T08:36:03Z no-defun-allowed: Whatever.
2020-02-04T08:36:30Z asarch: But p will never return its value, right?
2020-02-04T08:36:45Z asarch: Because p only exists in the LET scope, right?
2020-02-04T08:37:06Z beach: Wow.
2020-02-04T08:37:13Z Cymew: Try it and you'll find out.
2020-02-04T08:37:21Z asarch: So, basically my problem is, how could I get this p OUT OF the LET scope?
2020-02-04T08:37:47Z pjb: indeed, wow.
2020-02-04T08:37:54Z Cymew: Try to find a solution with less complexity
2020-02-04T08:37:58Z no-defun-allowed: I'll be back in ten minutes or so.
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2020-02-04T08:38:06Z Cymew: Yeah, I need more coffee.
2020-02-04T08:38:24Z asarch need some beer...
2020-02-04T08:38:25Z pjb: asarch: why don't you read the hyperspec?  http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_.htm
2020-02-04T08:38:50Z pjb: asarch: I mean, tutorial are nice too, but even the hyperspec which is meant to be the most terse CL text around, is quite clear about it!!
2020-02-04T08:39:04Z pjb: asarch: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_abaa.htm
2020-02-04T08:39:31Z pjb: asarch: "If a form is a symbol that is not a symbol macro, then it is the name of a variable, and the value of that variable is returned."
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2020-02-04T08:39:53Z pjb: So P will ALWAYS return its value!!!
2020-02-04T08:40:07Z pjb: In your (let ((p …)) …) form.
2020-02-04T08:40:54Z White_Flame: P no longer exists outside the scope of the LET, but the value certainly does
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2020-02-04T08:42:34Z asarch: That p alone was the missing part I needed: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587767
2020-02-04T08:43:01Z asarch: D'oh!
2020-02-04T08:43:20Z White_Flame: PROGN returns the Nth (i.e. last) value of the forms it encompasses.  Many forms like LET have an implicit PROGN body
2020-02-04T08:43:39Z White_Flame: it is very comparable to "return p" from other languages
2020-02-04T08:43:45Z White_Flame: if P is the last form in the body
2020-02-04T08:44:06Z White_Flame: (s/value/result/ to be more correct)
2020-02-04T08:44:09Z montaropdf: White_Flame: How to find out if a form like let have an implicit PROGN?
2020-02-04T08:44:13Z asarch: So, is this last example the "correct" way?
2020-02-04T08:44:31Z montaropdf: This is still quite confusing to me when I have to use an explicit PROGN or not
2020-02-04T08:44:40Z White_Flame: asarch: no, the "correct" idiomatic way is to initialize all the parameters in the make-instance form
2020-02-04T08:44:46Z White_Flame: as described above
2020-02-04T08:45:25Z asarch: Even if the initialization would take miles and miles of distance of code?
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2020-02-04T08:45:29Z aeth: montaropdf: a hint as to what to do is that if the form has an &body in its definition then you probably do not have to use an explicit PROGN
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2020-02-04T08:45:55Z White_Flame: montaropdf: The CLHS says what the return value of a special form is. If there's a singular body, then it's usually an implicit PROGN.  If there are multiple bodies/forms (IF, DO, etc) then it usually has other specifics
2020-02-04T08:46:04Z no-defun-allowed: Then you write an :after method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE if you want to do some complex initialisation.
2020-02-04T08:46:06Z aeth: montaropdf: e.g. In SBCL (they might use different names in other implementations)... (if test then &optional else) vs. (when test &body forms)
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2020-02-04T08:46:58Z Cymew: asarch: Work through this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/syntax-and-semantics.html multiple times and try to change the examples. Do that for a day before you even try oop bits.
2020-02-04T08:47:24Z montaropdf: aeth, White_Flame: thanks, that very helpfull
2020-02-04T08:48:07Z montaropdf: s/that/that's/
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2020-02-04T08:51:35Z pjb: montaropdf: type: /msg specbot clhs let   follow the link and read it!
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2020-02-04T08:57:33Z montaropdf: pjb: So If I read the spec correctly, I even don't need to enclose the forms following the initialisation with a pair of parens?
2020-02-04T08:58:56Z White_Flame: (let <bindings-list> <form1> <form2> ... <formN>)
2020-02-04T08:59:10Z White_Flame: the forms themselves don't need any extra surrounding parens besides the ones containing the whole LET
2020-02-04T08:59:27Z montaropdf: wow
2020-02-04T08:59:39Z White_Flame: in fact, it's probably an error to put more parens in there :-P
2020-02-04T09:00:56Z montaropdf: I guess I already made that mistake a couple of times, and it ends with an error at load/compile time.
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2020-02-04T09:01:20Z White_Flame: (let <bindings> (progn <form1> ... <formN>)) would be valid, but redundant
2020-02-04T09:04:01Z montaropdf: Now I see why, but for a noob, this is a bit disturbing, I suppose I will get used to it.
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2020-02-04T09:04:46Z White_Flame: once you start making your own macros with &body, all will become clear
2020-02-04T09:05:39Z montaropdf: White_Flame: That's another part of LISP to explore and to understand. And I am really far from that stage.
2020-02-04T09:05:59Z White_Flame: yep, I'm just saying don't worry too much about it not clicking for now, and just learn the syntax rote
2020-02-04T09:06:12Z White_Flame: it will click eventually
2020-02-04T09:07:04Z montaropdf: I hope
2020-02-04T09:07:14Z White_Flame: it's simple, it will
2020-02-04T09:07:33Z White_Flame: lisp is a very regular language (barring some historical warts that are easily ignored)
2020-02-04T09:08:13Z montaropdf: This is why I find it facinating, compared to any other language I have used so far
2020-02-04T09:08:25Z montaropdf: But, for now, it is dark magic to me ;)
2020-02-04T09:09:32Z montaropdf: And after 20 years of being a simple emacs user it was about time I get my hands dirty with LISP ;)
2020-02-04T09:09:39Z White_Flame: heh
2020-02-04T09:09:58Z White_Flame: (also, it's Lisp.  People haven't capitalized it LISP in 20 years either ;) )
2020-02-04T09:10:40Z montaropdf: ahahahah
2020-02-04T09:10:53Z montaropdf: So Lisp is no more considered an abbreviation?
2020-02-04T09:11:14Z White_Flame: correct
2020-02-04T09:11:18Z montaropdf: like the SOAP protocol became soap overtime?
2020-02-04T09:11:32Z White_Flame: besides, it has way more composite data structures than just List Processing nowadays
2020-02-04T09:11:57Z montaropdf: like defstruct and defclass for example.
2020-02-04T09:13:16Z White_Flame: and arrays and hashtables
2020-02-04T09:14:43Z montaropdf: I even see some package to manage enumaration.
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2020-02-04T09:16:12Z asarch: How are the MAKE- functions implemented? Do they use :after method for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE?
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2020-02-04T09:23:11Z beach: Only MAKE-INSTANCE calls INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
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2020-02-04T09:27:17Z asarch: Thank you!
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2020-02-04T09:48:50Z pjb: montaropdf: it's not disturbing anymore, when you place yourself in the shoes of the lisp implementer. If you try to interpret a let form, it's easy to write (cond … ((eq 'let (car form)) (interpret-let (cadr form) (cddr form))) …)  with (defun interpret-let (bindings body) …)3
2020-02-04T09:48:59Z pjb: s/3//
2020-02-04T09:49:15Z pjb: montaropdf: anything else would make it more complicated than using car cadr cddr…
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2020-02-04T09:50:19Z pjb: Lisp is a very simple and low-level programming language (simplier and lower level than C).  It only looks sophisticated, because it hit on the right concepts, and because of the abstraction tools provided and used, such as macros.
2020-02-04T09:51:08Z pjb: White_Flame: you might mean they've not capitalized lisp since the 70s!
2020-02-04T09:52:44Z pjb: White_Flame: before the invention of second generation of video terminals, the only terminals we had, punch cards, line printers, teletypes, only printed upper case letters.  The first generation of video terminals only had uppercase characters too (they just emulated teletypes).  Only when memory became cheaper, so that they could put a larger font rom in the video terminals and the invention of ASCII after 1969, did they start t
2020-02-04T09:52:44Z pjb: lower case.
2020-02-04T09:53:30Z p_l: important thing is that a lot of computers did optimizations that resulted in uppercase-only
2020-02-04T09:53:37Z pjb: White_Flame: unix is still able to work in all upper-case, if you enter your login in all upper-case (this feature might have been removed a few years ago from some versions of Linux getty).
2020-02-04T09:54:13Z aap: flexowriters had lower case actually
2020-02-04T09:54:16Z p_l: Lisp used capitalized symbols long after ASCII was available because one of the most popular implementations used SIXBIT for symbol encoding
2020-02-04T09:54:44Z pjb: p_l: well, you must discount using old systems after the development of newer systems.
2020-02-04T09:54:55Z pjb: Of course, you wouldn't throw away a 7090 that easily!
2020-02-04T09:55:03Z pjb: They were no smartphones!
2020-02-04T09:55:05Z p_l: Pascal is case-insensitive because it packed 10 characters into one 60 bit word
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2020-02-04T09:55:23Z p_l: pjb: SIXBIT is more of a PDP-10 thing :)
2020-02-04T09:55:51Z pjb: Even a PDP-10, you'd have to be at least two to throw it away!
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2020-02-04T09:56:20Z aap: they used BCD on the 70X, which is also a 6 bit encoding
2020-02-04T09:56:35Z pjb: And it would take a day or two to do it too! https://www.bell-labs.com/var/articles/invention-unix/
2020-02-04T09:57:42Z p_l: my point is that availability of mixed case was less important than efficiency at times
2020-02-04T09:57:52Z jackdaniel: here we go again with character encodings
2020-02-04T09:58:05Z pjb: Futureman. He goes to the past with an iPhone, drops it, it's found by a black man, and he reverse engineer it, and in the modified future, it's Black Apple iPhones, with two bites, not Rainbow Apple iPhones :-)
2020-02-04T09:58:08Z jackdaniel puts his "bad guy" hat -- please move it to #lispcafe
2020-02-04T09:58:45Z pjb: Usually, only americans did that. We were free in the mornings!
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2020-02-04T10:06:14Z jmercouris: beach: but since you can use any language for system administration on a Unix system, how do we distinguish a scripting language from a non scripting language. One could just as easily use C or Rust to make little scripts to modify a Unix system
2020-02-04T10:06:56Z jmercouris: the second definition of modifying a static program is much  more clear to me, that one I get. We have a compiled program or something, and we want to expose some change via some bindings or language
2020-02-04T10:09:11Z White_Flame: scripting = triggering and configuring existing behavior, programming = creating new behavior.  It's generally a spectrum, and the facilities of a turing complete language could do either.
2020-02-04T10:09:25Z theluke: Nice nicks
2020-02-04T10:09:29Z theluke: Very efficient
2020-02-04T10:09:59Z no-defun-allowed: Would you write a serious program in the Bourne shell?
2020-02-04T10:10:14Z theluke: White_Flame: technically, at the lowest level possible, programming is triggering and configuring already existing commands
2020-02-04T10:10:16Z jmercouris: nobody writes serious programs in shell
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2020-02-04T10:10:27Z White_Flame: no-defun-allowed: would you want the shell to make that literally impossible, and what implications would that have for simpler tasks?
2020-02-04T10:10:30Z theluke: jmercouris: depends on what you consider serious
2020-02-04T10:10:40Z White_Flame: theluke: yes, hence the spectrum
2020-02-04T10:10:45Z jmercouris: based on what I consider serious, nobody writes serious programs in shell
2020-02-04T10:10:59Z jmercouris: even if the program is massive, writing it in the shell is an exercise in not taking the task seriously
2020-02-04T10:11:09Z theluke: jmercouris: I'm fairly sure there are shell scripts for installing some linux distros
2020-02-04T10:11:16Z theluke: I wouldn't consider that trivial
2020-02-04T10:11:24Z no-defun-allowed: I would say that "scripting languages" are not as convenient for doing programming-in-the-large as non-"scripting languages".
2020-02-04T10:11:33Z theluke: You can also use shell scripts for server monitoring
2020-02-04T10:11:43Z theluke: Simplicity of a tool doesn't make it trivial
2020-02-04T10:11:59Z theluke: Knife is simple, but chefs make masterpieces using knives
2020-02-04T10:12:33Z Cymew: Hrmmph #lispcafe
2020-02-04T10:12:55Z theluke: Cymew: that's the offtopic?
2020-02-04T10:13:00Z Cymew: Yes
2020-02-04T10:13:23Z theluke: Alright
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2020-02-04T10:15:02Z jmercouris: I think the conclusion here is that "scripting" language has not been formally defined
2020-02-04T10:15:46Z theluke: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2286552/difference-between-a-script-and-a-program
2020-02-04T10:15:54Z jmercouris: the closest definition is maybe the following: "A scripting or script language is a programming language for a special run-time environment that automates the execution of tasks" from Wikipedia
2020-02-04T10:16:04Z jmercouris: but even that could abstractly apply to CL sometimes
2020-02-04T10:17:00Z no-defun-allowed: If half of the answers on that thread were right, we wouldn't see Python run as a server programming language, yet here we are.
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2020-02-04T10:18:01Z jmercouris: anyone know how to use: https://github.com/andy128k/cl-gobject-introspection to run things on the main thread?
2020-02-04T10:19:02Z beach: jmercouris: Sure, "scripting language" is not a well defined term.
2020-02-04T10:19:41Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: #<SYSTEM trivial-main-thread / trivial-main-thread-20190710-git / quicklisp 2019-10-08>
2020-02-04T10:19:41Z no-defun-allowed: I still hold that "scripting languages" are really only defined by not being something you would want to write a large program which requires more than simple loops and conditionals.
2020-02-04T10:20:30Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: interesting, maybe that works, thank you
2020-02-04T10:21:36Z jackdaniel: I think that you'd have your answer much faster if you had looked for it, i.e https://duckduckgo.com/?q=common+lisp+main+thread&t=canonical&ia=web gives trivial-main-thread on the first results page
2020-02-04T10:21:59Z jackdaniel: not to mention (ql:system-apropos 'thread)
2020-02-04T10:22:55Z jmercouris: I did search
2020-02-04T10:23:04Z jmercouris: but I did not consider that the implementation main thread is what GTK may be using
2020-02-04T10:23:05Z pjb: jmercouris: you're wrong, serious programs are written in shell all the time!
2020-02-04T10:23:20Z pjb: jmercouris: you might be surprised by what you can find in /bin on some systems…
2020-02-04T10:23:28Z jmercouris: what I did not mention in my comment is that I meant to say GTK main thread
2020-02-04T10:23:47Z pjb: jmercouris: even programs with GUI are sometimes written in shell.
2020-02-04T10:24:30Z pjb: jmercouris: the point is that X11 allows to create windows with subwindows from different processes.  So it makes it easy to present a user interface that looks integrated, but with elements coming from different programs or scripts.
2020-02-04T10:24:57Z jmercouris: ah, that is how exwm works then
2020-02-04T10:25:03Z jmercouris: I was wondering how that was even possible
2020-02-04T10:25:42Z jmercouris: so window managers are just integrating windows from different processes?
2020-02-04T10:25:53Z jmercouris: they are no different than any other program?
2020-02-04T10:25:58Z pjb: Exactly.
2020-02-04T10:26:41Z pjb: Remember that the window server is a single process, all the windows coming from different programs are inside the same data structure of the window server.
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2020-02-04T14:27:49Z dlowe: it used to be really common to have a dock that you could just stick random programs into, like a monitor or a picture of the weather radar
2020-02-04T14:28:11Z dlowe: window swallowing isn't really part of the modern desktop environment anymore too, and that's kinda sad
2020-02-04T14:30:04Z mason: dlowe: CyberDog!
2020-02-04T14:31:11Z mason: Looked at one way, Apple's OpenDoc was the Unix philosophy taken to an unusual venue - graphical applications.
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2020-02-04T14:51:55Z jmercouris: Shinmera: any idea why (trivial-main-thread:with-body-in-main-thread () (gir:invoke ((gir:ffi "Gtk") 'init) nil)) freezes and blocks?
2020-02-04T14:52:49Z Shinmera: depends on: your implementation, what the main thread is doing, what that is supposed to do, etc.
2020-02-04T14:52:55Z Shinmera: so: no
2020-02-04T14:53:10Z jmercouris: OK
2020-02-04T14:53:14Z jmercouris: I will look into it...
2020-02-04T14:58:24Z jmercouris: Shinmera: OK, so that is a blocking operation that invokes GTK, but it needs to run on the main thread
2020-02-04T14:58:38Z jmercouris: I don't see how it is possible then
2020-02-04T14:59:36Z jmercouris: hm that is a bit unfortunate
2020-02-04T14:59:42Z jmercouris: somehow I'll have to run that line lasat
2020-02-04T15:00:04Z Shinmera: are you sure you're not already executing that on the main thread
2020-02-04T15:00:38Z jmercouris: you know, I'm not sure
2020-02-04T15:01:09Z jmercouris: all I can say is that I'm using SBCL and Slime, my swank lisp is empty
2020-02-04T15:01:20Z jmercouris: I think it spawns a thread for each command entered into the REPL?
2020-02-04T15:05:42Z jmercouris: strange, it loses its mind if there is anythign invoked on the main thread
2020-02-04T15:06:30Z jmercouris: even just this: (trivial-main-thread:with-body-in-main-thread () (print "lol"))
2020-02-04T15:06:35Z jmercouris: causes the program to freeze
2020-02-04T15:06:57Z jmercouris: fascinating
2020-02-04T15:10:48Z jmercouris: double interesting
2020-02-04T15:10:56Z jmercouris: depending on where I put the main thread call it sometimes freezes...
2020-02-04T15:11:59Z d4ryus: jmercouris: depending on what ur main thread is doing it breaks, as it uses 'bt:interrupt-thread': "This may not be a good idea if THREAD is holding locks or doing anything important"
2020-02-04T15:12:40Z jmercouris: d4ryus: yes, I need to figure out what GTK is doing to my main thread...
2020-02-04T15:13:41Z jmercouris: OK, I've figured out what happens
2020-02-04T15:13:51Z jmercouris: if I display a GTK window, then I can no longer call anything on the main thread
2020-02-04T15:13:58Z jmercouris: it seems that GTK completely hijacks the main window
2020-02-04T15:14:04Z jmercouris: even if I regain control of the REPL
2020-02-04T15:14:55Z d4ryus: jmercouris: i guess the GTK main loop has some functionalty to attach a callback that is called when the loop is 'idle'
2020-02-04T15:15:10Z jmercouris: I have seen something like that
2020-02-04T15:15:13Z jmercouris: gtk add idle or something
2020-02-04T15:15:16Z d4ryus: jmercouris: yes, it has its own scheduling/signaling/etc
2020-02-04T15:16:24Z d4ryus: jmercouris: check https://github.com/cbaggers/livesupport i think that is what you need/want
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2020-02-04T15:17:45Z jmercouris: could be useful thank you
2020-02-04T15:17:49Z Shinmera: if GTK is already running you need some GTK event that'll run code on the main thread from within GTK. tmt only works if the main thread isn't already busy.
2020-02-04T15:18:12Z jmercouris: maybe I'll make trivial-main-gtk-thread :-P
2020-02-04T15:20:51Z jmercouris: I guess I will have to figure out how to ask GTK
2020-02-04T15:22:36Z jmercouris: alright so apparently it is enough to GTK INIT for GTK to take over everything
2020-02-04T15:23:00Z jmercouris: so thereafter, Lisp needs to spawn another thread for the REPL?
2020-02-04T15:23:08Z jmercouris: or I can use livesupport
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2020-02-04T15:44:47Z jmercouris: alright, update: http://dpaste.com/0QHN9QR
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2020-02-04T15:44:55Z jmercouris: as you can see, a memory fault
2020-02-04T15:45:04Z jmercouris: mixing main thread code with non main thread code is apparently a recipe for bad times
2020-02-04T15:45:17Z jmercouris: at least the program doesn't freeze, just crashes now :-D
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2020-02-04T17:44:40Z splittist secretly uses Alien Lisp Technology in $dayjob
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2020-02-04T18:21:35Z pjb: splittist: tell us more!  How do you use it?  How do you keep it a secret?
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2020-02-04T19:00:03Z ebrasca: Hunchentoot is working in Mezzano.
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2020-02-04T19:00:37Z splittist: pjb: As in - I just used it then. I make Microsoft Word tracked changes look pretty.
2020-02-04T19:00:47Z splittist: ebrasca: far more impressive!
2020-02-04T19:01:13Z splittist: pjb: I keep it secret by not telling anyone. Not that anyone would understand or care.
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2020-02-04T19:02:20Z splittist: Now, if I could webify it...
2020-02-04T19:02:46Z pjb: Yes, if you use it as scripting.
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2020-02-04T19:05:00Z Xach: splittist: i did that quite a bit at my last non-lisp job.
2020-02-04T19:05:21Z Xach: splittist: last week i got a request to port one of my tools, which had been humming along for almost 10 years, to PHP.
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2020-02-04T19:05:51Z Xach: could be a good chance to learn the ins and outs of the pretty printer!
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2020-02-04T20:47:23Z roelj: Is the hyperspec also available in Info format (for use within Emacs)?
2020-02-04T20:47:57Z Xach: roelj: I think I have seen that! But I can't remember where, sorry.
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2020-02-04T20:49:32Z dlowe: yes, there is
2020-02-04T20:49:42Z dlowe: debian has it as hyperspec-el
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2020-02-04T20:52:54Z roelj: dlowe: Thanks, I found the source for it
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2020-02-05T01:22:32Z no-defun-allowed: Is it possible to load some files in a directory, load some other directory, and then load some more files in the first directory using ASDF?
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2020-02-05T01:43:02Z White_Flame: (:file "foo") (:file "dir/bar") (:file "dir/baz") (:file "lol-more-here") ?
2020-02-05T01:43:32Z no-defun-allowed: Fair enough.
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2020-02-05T01:51:31Z Bike: you can't have them organized into modules and do that if that's what you meant
2020-02-05T01:52:18Z no-defun-allowed: Yeah, that's what I should have asked.
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2020-02-05T03:57:26Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-05T05:08:31Z ebrasca: Morning beach Josh_2 !
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2020-02-05T08:03:06Z Shinmera: no-defun-allowed: you can still organise them in modules, but you'd have to set up the :depends-on manually, and need some tricks to be able to depend on things in the parent of a module.
2020-02-05T08:03:38Z no-defun-allowed: Hrm. Guess I'll think about it.
2020-02-05T08:03:52Z no-defun-allowed: This is probably a bad solution to a circularity problem.
2020-02-05T08:04:15Z Shinmera: eg https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/trial.asd#L99 https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/trial.asd#L78 https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial/blob/master/trial.asd#L6-L14
2020-02-05T08:04:55Z jackdaniel: no-defun-allowed: only module names must differ, you may manually supply the path to the module directory
2020-02-05T08:05:02Z jackdaniel: so yes you can
2020-02-05T08:09:14Z jackdaniel: Bike: ASDF is OK with (:module "mod1" :pathname "src/" :components ((:file "a"))) (:module "mod2" :pathname "src/" :components ((:file "c")))
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2020-02-05T08:09:37Z no-defun-allowed: Righteo, I could just put in :pathname then. Thanks everyone.
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2020-02-05T10:18:53Z phoe: Is it possible to have Slime open in the same window instead of always switching to another one?
2020-02-05T10:20:19Z pjb: What your asking is not making any sense.
2020-02-05T10:21:04Z phoe: If I have multiple emacs buffers open in separate windows, Slime has an annoying behaviour where if the first window is active and I `M-x slime`, then Slime opens in the second window.
2020-02-05T10:21:06Z pjb: slime doesn't open.  It may create buffers such as a slime repl buffer, or a slime sldb buffer, etc.  Those buffers can be displayed in windows.
2020-02-05T10:21:31Z mfiano: Window choosing is hacky in Emacs. Sly is more deterministic, but I recommend setting up purpose-mode for this.
2020-02-05T10:21:35Z pjb: No it creates a slime repl buffer, and shows it in a window.
2020-02-05T10:22:14Z phoe: Okay, let me adjust to your semantics. Can slime display whatever buffers it creates in the same window as the active one?
2020-02-05T10:22:26Z phoe reads up on purpose-mode
2020-02-05T10:22:29Z mfiano: No, it dispatches to Emacs for choosing the window.
2020-02-05T10:22:36Z jdz: phoe: pjb is being a dick, and you probably mean "frame" when you say "window".
2020-02-05T10:22:42Z mfiano: and it's more or less random
2020-02-05T10:22:44Z phoe: jdz: no, I mean "window".
2020-02-05T10:22:48Z jdz: OK
2020-02-05T10:23:31Z pjb: it uses pop-to-buffer
2020-02-05T10:23:31Z phoe: let me record and demonstrate.
2020-02-05T10:25:07Z pjb: You could customize it with display-buffer-overriding-action and/or display-buffer-alist I guess.
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2020-02-05T10:33:41Z pjb: phoe: (setf display-buffer-base-action '(display-buffer-same-window)) ; might be a little coarse…
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2020-02-05T12:01:10Z phoe: I am setting up a new Lisp environment, and (ql:quickload :qtools-helloworld) fails for me with "libcommonqt.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory."
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2020-02-05T12:09:40Z shinohai: phoe: didja `(ql:register-local-projects)` before trying to load qtools ?
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2020-02-05T12:11:32Z phoe: shinohai: yes. I have nothing other than my own two projects in ~/local-projects though
2020-02-05T12:11:48Z phoe: I could try with an empty local project dir, one sec.
2020-02-05T12:12:07Z phoe: Same issue.
2020-02-05T12:12:14Z shinohai: Weird.
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2020-02-05T12:13:45Z phoe: Let me scrap the whole thing and reinitialize all of Roswell.
2020-02-05T12:14:15Z pjb: phoe: so are you satisfied by the solution I gave?
2020-02-05T12:14:58Z phoe: pjb: not yet. Looks like that part of slime is not easily modifiable. I'll hack on it later.
2020-02-05T12:15:09Z pjb: it works for me.
2020-02-05T12:15:19Z pjb: As I said, it's not slime, it's emacs.
2020-02-05T12:15:28Z phoe: Does it affect all buffers though?
2020-02-05T12:16:03Z pjb: More documentation reading should be in order, since there's a lot of filters and configuration to affect only what you want.
2020-02-05T12:16:49Z pjb: That said, it doesn't seem to be bad that it behaves the same for all buffers.
2020-02-05T12:16:56Z phoe: shinohai: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1662#1662
2020-02-05T12:17:15Z phoe: pjb: hm. Seems so. I'll try that when I run slime again
2020-02-05T12:17:31Z phoe: I'm trying to get qtools to work for the time being.
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2020-02-05T12:28:39Z shinohai: It's been a long time since I fiddled with qtools, iirc correctly I had to do some LD_PRELOAD voodoo or something.
2020-02-05T12:30:26Z phoe: there's been some work to avoid doing any trickery like that
2020-02-05T12:30:31Z phoe: right now, it should Just Work™
2020-02-05T12:30:37Z phoe: (except something still doesn't, for me)
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2020-02-05T12:49:57Z iAmDecim: hey people, how long do you think it would for someone thats worked with clojure for a few months to jump over to CL?
2020-02-05T12:50:37Z Shinmera: Depends very much on what level of proficiency you want to achieve and how fast of a learner you are.
2020-02-05T12:50:59Z Shinmera: So, somewhere between a few days and many years, I suppose.
2020-02-05T12:51:20Z iAmDecim: well clearly years....there's a bit =P
2020-02-05T12:51:44Z Shinmera: I've been using CL almost exclusively for years, and I'm still learning new stuff, so
2020-02-05T12:53:02Z iAmDecim: yeah...a given. i have a few books on hand. even though I started clojure I bought a few CL books that just seemed like that would be cool at some point. ANSI CL, PAIP and Land of Lisp
2020-02-05T12:53:22Z iAmDecim: I don't dislike clojure but i'm really beginning to see CL has many more and better resources for learning
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2020-02-05T12:53:35Z Shinmera: Sure, those are all pretty good.
2020-02-05T12:53:45Z Shinmera: My favourite would be Practical Common Lisp
2020-02-05T12:53:52Z Shinmera: And then PAIP after that.
2020-02-05T12:54:18Z iAmDecim: F it...may as well tell a look. i'm interested in making a web app for fun over time. how would you compare error messages in CL?
2020-02-05T12:55:17Z Shinmera: I don't know Clojure, but I hear the debugging experience in Lisp is better.
2020-02-05T12:55:22Z mfiano: That's almost too comical to answer. Clojure has the worst stack traces and error messages I've ever seen.
2020-02-05T12:55:32Z iAmDecim: i'll give it a serious look. i already have SBCL set up and did a few hours
2020-02-05T12:55:57Z Shinmera: Great!
2020-02-05T12:56:12Z iAmDecim: mfiano: one of my frustrations. I think CL may be more fun. and the resources...that pixel pusher guys youtube..jesus
2020-02-05T12:56:16Z Shinmera: Do note that a lot of the good debugging experience is dependent on the IDE, typically Emacs with Slime, or VIM with Slimv
2020-02-05T12:56:47Z iAmDecim: emacs is god for all things in my life
2020-02-05T12:57:33Z Shinmera: Then you're all set :)
2020-02-05T12:58:06Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell iAmDecim look up hunchentoot
2020-02-05T12:58:06Z Colleen: iAmDecim: About hunchentoot https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/
2020-02-05T12:58:24Z Shinmera: For simple web stuff hunchentoot works pretty well and has good introductory examples
2020-02-05T12:58:25Z iAmDecim: i've seen it.  well that makes that choice easy lol
2020-02-05T12:58:40Z iAmDecim: what about...do you all have any libraries that wrap react?
2020-02-05T12:59:08Z mfiano: Also look at Clack, which lets you write server-agnostic code and switch out the server to something faster for production or whatnot.
2020-02-05T13:00:22Z iAmDecim: sold...you have a library that people are saying is better than om
2020-02-05T13:00:29Z iAmDecim: mfiano: ok i'll take a look at that as well
2020-02-05T13:01:18Z mfiano: Clojure is where it's at for JS development. You're not going to find much in CL, but we have parenscript so you could do pretty much anything yourself.
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2020-02-05T13:04:09Z iAmDecim: mfiano: I see. I may have to stomach js =)
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2020-02-05T13:05:41Z iAmDecim: ok, lets see...
2020-02-05T13:05:44Z mfiano: But, I would start with PCL as Shinmera recommended. The full book is free online if you don't want to buy a physical copy and is the book most of us recommend for newcomers.
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2020-02-05T13:06:25Z iAmDecim: ok so that over ANSI CL. I'll start online and order it if I'm liking it
2020-02-05T13:06:58Z mfiano: Make sure you read it linearly though, and take time to try to examples and most certainly write the practicals yourself.
2020-02-05T13:07:55Z iAmDecim: ooh yeah...I write all code available in books after skimming
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2020-02-05T13:11:41Z iAmDecim: truthfully I could really go cl/cljs if I really wanted to.
2020-02-05T13:11:48Z mfiano: I'm specifically saying not to skim. There's a lot of information that is important to grasp which may not seem like so at first. The book is intended to be read from front to back.
2020-02-05T13:12:00Z Josh_2: Just write the front end in js ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-02-05T13:12:34Z iAmDecim: mfiano: correction i skim away from the computer, re-read and code as i re-read. I meant to go back and correct myself but didn't want to spam the chat
2020-02-05T13:13:03Z iAmDecim: ok, i'm going to go ahead and jump in. i'm sure i'll be in here most of the day
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2020-02-05T13:14:11Z iAmDecim: I read twice because I like to step away from the computer. i generaly buy both physical and ebook copies
2020-02-05T13:14:14Z Shinmera: There's also #clschool for very basic questions.
2020-02-05T13:14:25Z iAmDecim: Shinmera: ok, cool
2020-02-05T13:15:28Z iAmDecim: that's another reason why clojure started feeling funny. they migrated to slack and the conversation is just different and not as informal as it was
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2020-02-05T13:19:01Z jackdaniel: if I'll ever create a library for js, I'll call it cl-ojure and watch the world burn
2020-02-05T13:19:27Z montaropdf: jackdaniel: ahahahahaha
2020-02-05T13:19:47Z iAmDecim: lol
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2020-02-05T13:28:19Z jackdaniel: if you are into jokes which drag too long I'm sure you'll appreciate that it will run on clozure common lisp inside the closure web browser as a cl-ojure javascript engine
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2020-02-05T13:39:59Z montaropdf: I feel my brain cells screaming in terror ;)
2020-02-05T13:40:13Z beach: Why?
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2020-02-05T13:44:20Z montaropdf: Too much entanglements for them to contemplate. *English is not my natural language so wording is not necessarily right :(*
2020-02-05T13:44:50Z beach: Is it something you are reading?
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2020-02-05T13:46:09Z montaropdf: beach: What do you mean? Am I able to read what I have written? and by reading, you mean translating?
2020-02-05T13:47:32Z beach: I don't mean anything.  I did not understand your second utterance, so I was guessing that your problem was interpreting something written.
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2020-02-05T13:47:41Z phoe: beach: montaropdf likely refers to the clozure+closure+cl-ojure post by jackdaniel
2020-02-05T13:47:50Z beach: Ah.
2020-02-05T13:48:02Z beach: Makes sense.
2020-02-05T13:48:06Z phoe: I know, right
2020-02-05T13:48:17Z montaropdf: phoe: exactly, thanks for clarifying everything so easily.
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2020-02-05T13:48:47Z phoe: montaropdf: I wish that all the clo[zjs]ure stuff was as clear though
2020-02-05T13:50:52Z montaropdf: phoe: well enough to get the joke and I agree that it begin to be dragging way too long at this point.
2020-02-05T13:51:47Z jackdaniel: closure browser + cl-ojure engine will be called clojsure ,) I'll stop now.
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2020-02-05T13:57:18Z phoe: we need a CL-gnome layer for convenient GTK bindings; I'll allow myself to call it clogure
2020-02-05T13:57:21Z phoe ducks
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2020-02-05T14:05:38Z p_l: we need a full-featured UI toolkit that meshes into native environment properly :|
2020-02-05T14:05:59Z beach: Like McCLIM.
2020-02-05T14:07:53Z p_l: well, McCLIM right now doesn't mesh well with any native environment (the few where CLIM meshes well aren't supported by McCLIM) and frankly speaking, it needs some important changes in protocols to be good even after it regains ability to run outside X11 in default distribution
2020-02-05T14:09:57Z beach: I have several remarks to that.  First, what you consider "native" must be a personal choice, and in that case, you can declare CLIM to be the native environment.  Second, we spend so much time here debugging FFI-based GUI toolkits, that if all that energy were spent improving McCLIM, it would benefit everyone.
2020-02-05T14:09:58Z montaropdf: As you speak about McCLIM. If I am not mistaken, it is based on clx? And if I am not mistaken, again, clx still can't properly deal with accented characters or dead keys, right? So the question is why doesn't clx devs/maintainers have fixed that, what is blocking them?
2020-02-05T14:09:58Z jackdaniel: I'm sure that it will be easier to improve McCLIM than to whip out a full-featured UI toolkit in CL from scratch (i.e by diagnosing tangible problems and reporting them - even better fixing them; "important changes in protocol" is to vague for me)
2020-02-05T14:10:55Z jackdaniel: montaropdf: what is blocking us is time and motivation ,) that said, McCLIM works fine with accented characters and dead keys despite being implemented on top of clx
2020-02-05T14:11:07Z jackdaniel: that is not clx job to do that
2020-02-05T14:11:09Z p_l: jackdaniel: CLIM protocols predate accessibility
2020-02-05T14:11:17Z beach: montaropdf: It is not based on CLX.  It just so happens that CLX is the only seriously operational backend we have at the moment.  But if just a tiny fraction of the energy spent on debugging FFI-based solution here would be spent writing more backends, everyone would win.
2020-02-05T14:12:12Z p_l: beach: "meshes with native" in this case means for me it will "work with" the native environment. Doesn't mean it has to be FFI toolkit, but it probably will need a degree of FFI to interact with external environment outside of Mezzano/Movitz/etc
2020-02-05T14:12:14Z montaropdf: jackdaniel, beach: So, If StumpWM is not accepting such characters, It is up to them to fix it instead of you?
2020-02-05T14:12:19Z jackdaniel: p_l: then please propose changes to protocols, we may discuss them. requesting a feature "let's do accessibility" is not a proposal
2020-02-05T14:12:30Z jackdaniel: also, I doubt that changes to CLIM protocols would be necessary
2020-02-05T14:12:55Z jackdaniel: fact that something predates some concept doesn't mean that the older thing is not exensible enough to accomodate it
2020-02-05T14:13:02Z p_l: jackdaniel: I actually spent some time recently looking through how accessibility APIs are implemented in practice and how to mesh it with CLIM
2020-02-05T14:13:22Z p_l: which is a step forward to state of my complaint from few months ago
2020-02-05T14:13:28Z beach: I totally agree with jackdaniel that it would be much easier to improve McCLIM than the other directions that were proposed.
2020-02-05T14:13:56Z jackdaniel: yet you've raised no technical concern on tracker and you've said here that "McCLIM is not suitable"; sorry, but it is totally not convincing to me
2020-02-05T14:14:08Z p_l: Some more and I should have something concrete to point for CLIM, but I'm unsure if it would continue to be well compatible with existing CLIM applications
2020-02-05T14:14:49Z p_l: jackdaniel: feature on the tracker will be when I have enough details to make it of interest, but honestly? CLX being the only operational backend is kinda limiting me on that
2020-02-05T14:14:52Z jackdaniel: that's why proposal-discussion scheme is prefered
2020-02-05T14:15:15Z jackdaniel: clx backend is mere an implementation detail
2020-02-05T14:15:27Z beach: p_l: CLIM is a collection of layered protocols.  There are provisions for adapting each protocol at each level.  Such adaptation can be specific to your application.
2020-02-05T14:15:28Z p_l: as AT-SPI quite sucks to get an usable description of, and all other platforms will require different backend to integrate
2020-02-05T14:16:18Z beach: p_l: For example, we have a Emacs-Style-Application command loop that is used for Climacs.
2020-02-05T14:16:26Z jackdaniel: my point is that broadcasting "not suitable" without any concrete arguments is quite irking
2020-02-05T14:16:37Z beach: p_l: It is totally incompatible with existing CLIM applications.
2020-02-05T14:16:43Z beach: p_l: And that is not a problem.
2020-02-05T14:17:14Z beach: p_l: In fact, the CLIM specification was created to make such things possible.  Possibly very unlike your "native" alternatives.
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2020-02-05T14:18:40Z beach: p_l: If you prefer to write some Common Lisp solution from scratch, or use some FFI-based alternative, that is of course up to you.  But please don't try to justify your choice by claiming that CLIM is unsuitable for this kind of stuff.
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2020-02-05T14:20:08Z p_l: beach: CLIM minus painting that bypasses output records is actually a sensible start, but as-is, it's not much of an option, and McCLIM lack of backends other than CLX is extra problematic (not impossible, just pretty big issue to take care of first)
2020-02-05T14:20:45Z beach: Bigger issue that writing an entire library from scratch?  I doubt it.
2020-02-05T14:20:47Z p_l: anyway, my issue was with "McCLIM as of right now"
2020-02-05T14:20:55Z jackdaniel: this is still very vague what you say. how clx limits you?
2020-02-05T14:21:11Z jackdaniel: why output records does not fit into the whole picture?
2020-02-05T14:21:26Z beach: p_l: But you seemed to suggest creating something new.  How is that going to be easier?
2020-02-05T14:21:33Z p_l: jackdaniel: the opposite, output-records *only*, i.e. avoid painting without output records
2020-02-05T14:21:34Z jackdaniel: why "as-is" is not much of an option?
2020-02-05T14:22:12Z jackdaniel: well, if you use the default abstraction, that is application panes, then all output is recorded
2020-02-05T14:22:31Z jackdaniel: if you create sheets which do not do that you are in fact working with silica which was "meshed" into CLIM specification
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2020-02-05T14:22:56Z p_l: beach: "seemed", maybe. It was more that "this is something we need, and which McCLIM is pretty far from getting soon even compared to wrapping FFI libs". I still quite like CLIM so McCLIM getting there is somewhere on my list of priorities, that 's why I put some time into checking where and how to hook things together
2020-02-05T14:23:12Z beach: OK.
2020-02-05T14:23:56Z beach: I don't see anything that is closer to "what we need" that what McCLIM is right now, so in that case, it would be good to get more help to get there.
2020-02-05T14:23:58Z p_l: jackdaniel: CLX limits because a) interacting with interfaces other than AT-SPI will be made more problematic due to disconnect between drawing system and accessibility interface b) AT-SPI sucks when it comes to documentation
2020-02-05T14:23:59Z jackdaniel: that would be more convincing if there were issue reports or technical discussions on #clim channel
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2020-02-05T14:24:41Z jackdaniel needs to continue packing, will check logs later
2020-02-05T14:25:08Z p_l: I did mention it earlier on #clim, though I had hard time getting through why "write special support just in your app" isn't the right solution
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2020-02-05T14:25:49Z beach: p_l: I see McCLIM as a collection of modules, some of which are implementations of the CLIM II spec, others that aren't.
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2020-02-05T14:26:22Z p_l: beach: it's just that *right now*, getting McCLIM from current state to "will run across MacOS and Windows with standard accessibility support" appears to be more effort than "figure how to bring CommonQT from Qt4 to Qt6 including writing a C++ parser to generate glue code"
2020-02-05T14:26:26Z beach: There is absolutely nothing wrong with modules that use the protocols differently, and with letting applications choose such modules.  The specification was written to allow that.
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2020-02-05T14:27:11Z beach: p_l: Then just go ahead and do that.  There is no need to justify your choice by claiming that it is harder to do it with McCLIM.
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2020-02-05T14:29:43Z Nilby: Something like Clouseau feels like one of the most brillant and magical pieces of software I can run, but it also seems sad, like a lost child from the past a without it's mother the Lisp Machine, and is a little disabled on McCLIM vs CLIM.
2020-02-05T14:30:14Z beach: Er, what?
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2020-02-05T14:30:29Z beach: Clouseau is just an application that uses CLIM/McCLIM.
2020-02-05T14:30:57Z p_l: it was more a reaction of pushing McCLIM as default without caveats - because there are important caveats to take before going with McCLIM *unless* you're willing to spend time working on McCLIM itself
2020-02-05T14:31:00Z jmercouris: would it be possible to use the approach of using C as a bridge to do FFI to a C++ application?
2020-02-05T14:31:08Z beach: Nilby: It is just an inspector for arbitrary Common Lisp objects.  Programmable on top of that.
2020-02-05T14:31:10Z Nilby: Right, but it's a poignant demonstration of it's strengths.
2020-02-05T14:31:27Z beach: It certainly is.
2020-02-05T14:31:34Z beach: And we need more such applications.
2020-02-05T14:31:47Z jmercouris: things like Next ;-)
2020-02-05T14:33:03Z p_l: if I were to make a GUI application from scratch, with no interest in spending time to advance state of the art of open source GUI toolkits, and that allows me to make an application *for other people to use that I don't know upfront* on all major platofmrs....
2020-02-05T14:33:12Z beach: p_l: Just as there are important caveats going for an FFI-based solution *unless* you want the pain a suffering of interacting with a completely different language semantics and no GC.
2020-02-05T14:33:47Z p_l: unfortunately it would be 1) CAPI 2) CommonQT 3) that one GTK wrapper using GObject (lotsa pain starts there) 4) McCLIM
2020-02-05T14:34:06Z jmercouris: I have a lot to say on the matter, and none of those would be my choice
2020-02-05T14:34:26Z beach: p_l: You continue trying to justify your choice.  Just go ahead and do what you want.  I have no problem with your choice.  I don't think anybody else does either.
2020-02-05T14:34:34Z p_l: beach: I believe we have a much better distributed knowledge on FFI issues :)
2020-02-05T14:34:44Z jmercouris: GObject is terrible!
2020-02-05T14:34:56Z jmercouris: Actually CAPI would probably be my first choice too
2020-02-05T14:34:56Z p_l: jmercouris: it is
2020-02-05T14:35:17Z beach: p_l: The pain and suffering I see here from trying to debug such solutions tells me otherwise.
2020-02-05T14:35:37Z jmercouris: The solution is clear, CAPI :-)
2020-02-05T14:35:53Z jmercouris: I saw this: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2744181/how-to-call-c-function-from-c
2020-02-05T14:36:13Z jmercouris: and it got me thinking if you can call C++ from a C program, then you should be able to wrap a C++ program in C and use CL CFFI
2020-02-05T14:36:17Z jmercouris: is my thinking correct?
2020-02-05T14:36:28Z beach: Here we go again.
2020-02-05T14:36:41Z p_l: jmercouris: that's literally how all bridging of anything to C++ happens
2020-02-05T14:36:49Z jmercouris: so the answer is, yes?
2020-02-05T14:36:52Z jmercouris: OK, thank you
2020-02-05T14:36:55Z jmercouris: just wanted to confirm
2020-02-05T14:36:57Z p_l: yes, but you get to deal with C++
2020-02-05T14:37:01Z jmercouris: sure, no problem
2020-02-05T14:37:02Z p_l: which is pretty shitty case
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2020-02-05T14:37:50Z jmercouris: Is that really how all bridging is done?
2020-02-05T14:37:54Z jmercouris: for example smoke does that as well?
2020-02-05T14:37:58Z phoe: nope
2020-02-05T14:38:09Z jmercouris: OK, it did seem strange to me to thinkk there would be no other way
2020-02-05T14:38:22Z phoe: AFAIK smoke doesn't bind to C++ directly, it exposes a static C interface that calls C++
2020-02-05T14:38:31Z jmercouris: so basically the same idea though
2020-02-05T14:38:34Z phoe: but there is nonetheless a layer of C between them
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2020-02-05T14:38:53Z jmercouris: yay :-D
2020-02-05T14:38:54Z jmercouris: I love C
2020-02-05T14:39:08Z jmercouris: I'm joking of course, but it becomes clear to me that I'll have to become more proficient in it
2020-02-05T14:39:15Z jmercouris: it keeps showing up in my carreer over and over again
2020-02-05T14:39:28Z jmercouris: whether I like it or not
2020-02-05T14:40:55Z jackdaniel: montaropdf: yes, clx only reports events as defined in x11 protocol, so a dead key is just an event with the dead-key code inside
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2020-02-05T14:41:26Z jackdaniel: writing something on top of clx to provide input abstraction is of course possible;
2020-02-05T14:41:49Z montaropdf: jackdaniel: thanks, for the clarification, I now know whom to annoy ;)
2020-02-05T14:42:00Z jackdaniel: (as proven i.e by that McCLIM indeed handles dead keys correctly on standard-extended-input-streams)
2020-02-05T14:42:53Z jackdaniel: p_l: all I remember is that you've mentioned, that you'd want to have accessibility on McCLIM (i.e a feature request), not what should be added/ changed (i.e not a feature proposal)
2020-02-05T14:43:58Z p_l: jackdaniel: There was a bit more when I was trying to explain what kind of things that requires while trying to figure what's the state. My current knowledge on state of CLIM is much better, but I need some more time to figure certain aspects before I give a concrete proposal
2020-02-05T14:44:20Z jackdaniel: OK
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2020-02-05T14:45:26Z _death: there is another way.. a Lisp interface that incidentally uses the underlying GUI library.. so instead of having a C or C++-ish low-level interface in Lisp you have a Lispy interface that is implemented in whatever
2020-02-05T14:45:53Z jackdaniel: n.b I'd agree with a statement, that McCLIM requires work to be better suited for average-joe developer -- that's why I'm investing my time in it ;)
2020-02-05T14:46:33Z jackdaniel: _death: that's basically the idea behind "backends"
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2020-02-05T14:47:17Z _death: jackdaniel: yes, CLIM is a good example.. there is a spec that defines a Lispy interface and however it's implemented is none of its concern
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2020-02-05T15:46:03Z jmercouris: let's say I have two instances of SBCL running, what are some ways I can communicate between them?
2020-02-05T15:46:12Z oni-on-ion: socket/udp ?
2020-02-05T15:46:15Z Josh_2: a nice socket
2020-02-05T15:46:30Z jmercouris: ok so if I use socket, I can do some FFI between the instances?
2020-02-05T15:46:41Z beach: jmercouris: What is your reason for having several instances?
2020-02-05T15:46:45Z oni-on-ion: uiop is probably the most portable. ive asked similar question a month ago about sandboxing and multiplayer repl
2020-02-05T15:46:50Z jmercouris: my reasoning is sandboxing memory
2020-02-05T15:46:58Z jmercouris: one of the Lisp instances will be using unsafe memory from CFFI
2020-02-05T15:47:03Z jmercouris: and I do not want it to bring down the whole image
2020-02-05T15:47:09Z jmercouris: s/image/program
2020-02-05T15:47:11Z oni-on-ion: yea..
2020-02-05T15:47:56Z jmercouris: oni-on-ion: how would you use UIOP for IPC?
2020-02-05T15:48:11Z oni-on-ion: as portable CL sockets
2020-02-05T15:48:18Z jmercouris: I'm sorry
2020-02-05T15:48:21Z jmercouris: can you please expand
2020-02-05T15:48:23Z jmercouris: I'm not understanding
2020-02-05T15:48:38Z oni-on-ion: a socket is a communication concept
2020-02-05T15:48:46Z jmercouris: what does this have to do with UIOP?
2020-02-05T15:48:53Z jmercouris: UIOP has support for sockets?
2020-02-05T15:48:55Z jmercouris: is that what you are telling me?
2020-02-05T15:49:01Z phoe: jmercouris: swank
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2020-02-05T15:49:49Z phoe: use swank-crew and swank-client to connect to these
2020-02-05T15:49:53Z jmercouris: I see
2020-02-05T15:50:09Z jmercouris: ah, that is interesting
2020-02-05T15:50:10Z jmercouris: thank you
2020-02-05T15:50:11Z phoe: or lfarm if you feel like distributing lparallel workload across multiple images
2020-02-05T15:51:11Z phoe: if you feel like going down to shared memory or pipes, I'd use zeromq for IPC
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2020-02-05T15:52:30Z oni-on-ion: *usocket . did not mean to inspire so much confusion, jmercouris .
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2020-02-05T15:52:44Z jmercouris: ah, OK
2020-02-05T15:52:47Z jmercouris: that makes a lot more sense now
2020-02-05T15:53:34Z phoe: usocket is raw TCP/UDP though; swank-crew is much higher level
2020-02-05T15:53:54Z jmercouris: yeah, swank-crew sounds more appropriate for my usecase should I pursue it
2020-02-05T15:54:17Z oni-on-ion: nice
2020-02-05T15:54:44Z oni-on-ion: though not sure if connecting to one image will allow sandboxing or prevent taking down the image with cffi
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2020-02-05T15:56:49Z phoe: sandboxing? hell no
2020-02-05T15:56:55Z phoe: swank exposes a REPL
2020-02-05T15:57:01Z phoe: if you have REPL access, you own the image
2020-02-05T15:57:25Z phoe: either that, or you reimplement swank using some limited DSL implemented in Lisp
2020-02-05T15:57:55Z jmercouris: it is not about sandboxing
2020-02-05T15:58:01Z jmercouris: it is about errant C code taking down the image
2020-02-05T15:58:11Z jmercouris: sandboxing is a loose approximation
2020-02-05T15:58:18Z jmercouris: there is no security aspect related to what I am doing though
2020-02-05T15:58:24Z phoe: > it is about errant C code taking down the image
2020-02-05T15:58:31Z phoe: wait a second
2020-02-05T15:58:37Z jmercouris: I am waiting
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2020-02-05T15:58:54Z phoe: you want to run a second Lisp image in order to run C code that might destroy the image
2020-02-05T15:59:00Z jmercouris: correct
2020-02-05T15:59:04Z phoe: as an error recovery mechanism
2020-02-05T15:59:07Z jmercouris: yes
2020-02-05T15:59:13Z phoe: instead of actualy fixing the C code to *not* be buggy?
2020-02-05T15:59:18Z jmercouris: that's correct
2020-02-05T15:59:24Z jmercouris: the c code is hundreds of thousands of lines long
2020-02-05T15:59:29Z jmercouris: I don't kknow if I am capable of fixing it myself
2020-02-05T15:59:34Z phoe: is it maintained?
2020-02-05T15:59:36Z jmercouris: maybe given a hundre lifetimes
2020-02-05T15:59:40Z jmercouris: it is WebKit we are talking about
2020-02-05T15:59:56Z phoe: are you using a maintained branch of WebKit?
2020-02-05T15:59:59Z jmercouris: Yes
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2020-02-05T16:00:17Z phoe: find bugs, send them upstream to be fixed, get bugfixes
2020-02-05T16:00:29Z jmercouris: that's a good plan
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2020-02-05T16:00:32Z phoe: that's a way to work with monoliths like that
2020-02-05T16:01:09Z phoe: I kind of wonder what good you will get out of this architecture - it seems that you will have one process that is responsible for controlling the other process
2020-02-05T16:01:22Z phoe: but if the other goes down, I assume that most of the browser crashes anyway
2020-02-05T16:01:38Z phoe: so all you can do is try and restart it anyway
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2020-02-05T16:01:57Z phoe: I just wonder what exactly do you gain by using this architecture
2020-02-05T16:02:22Z Nilby: Both chrome and firefox do the same with themselves.
2020-02-05T16:03:00Z phoe: hm, but they have separate processes for tab rendering and such
2020-02-05T16:03:17Z phoe: so it's not just one process, it's dozens of them
2020-02-05T16:04:17Z jmercouris: maybe it is a stupid plan
2020-02-05T16:04:19Z jmercouris: perhaps I just journal and recover
2020-02-05T16:04:20Z jmercouris: I don't know
2020-02-05T16:04:24Z jmercouris: I am trying to figure out my options here
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2020-02-05T16:06:35Z phoe: recover from *what*
2020-02-05T16:06:42Z phoe: what kind of bugs do you expect
2020-02-05T16:06:54Z phoe: what kind of bugs do you want to shield yourself with
2020-02-05T16:07:18Z dlowe: it sounds to me like you want to run the C code in another process and drive it as a service
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2020-02-05T16:09:48Z phoe: I get the same impression
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2020-02-05T16:48:17Z phoe: What would be a good way to split a list into two lists that contain the odd- and even-number elements?
2020-02-05T16:48:31Z phoe: For any definition of "good".
2020-02-05T16:48:53Z phoe: (split '(a b c d e f g)) ;=> (a c e g) (b d f)
2020-02-05T16:49:44Z phoe: Oh wait, that's just PARTITION-IF #'EVENP.
2020-02-05T16:50:51Z pfdietz95: I assume that's in some semi-standard library somewhere.
2020-02-05T16:51:12Z jackdaniel: (loop for (i j) on '(a b c d e f) by #'cddr collecting i into odd collecting j into even finally (return (values odd even)))
2020-02-05T16:51:16Z jackdaniel: phoe: ^
2020-02-05T16:51:28Z pfdietz95: So your question reduces to "which library is this in, and what's it called there?"
2020-02-05T16:51:51Z sjl_: if you're talking about PARTITION-IF from quickutil, doesn't it call the predicate on the elements themselves, not their positions?
2020-02-05T16:52:03Z phoe: jackdaniel: fails for odd-numbered lists
2020-02-05T16:52:10Z phoe: sjl_: oh wait. Correct.
2020-02-05T16:52:17Z jackdaniel: phoe: that's left as an excercise for the reader
2020-02-05T16:52:38Z phoe: pfdietz95: correct, I kind of wanted to avoid writing it myself
2020-02-05T16:52:38Z jackdaniel: but wait, it is just #'split-list-odd/even
2020-02-05T16:54:41Z phoe: touché
2020-02-05T16:56:00Z phoe: (serapeum:partition (let (x) (lambda (y) (phoe-toolbox:notf x))) '(a b c d e f g)) does what I want
2020-02-05T16:56:14Z phoe: so, I guess I found it
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2020-02-05T16:59:33Z sjl_: (defun paritition (l &aux e o p) (dolist (i l) (if p (push i o) (push i e)) (setf p (not p))) (values (nreverse e) (nreverse o)))
2020-02-05T16:59:34Z jackdaniel: hardly shorter than a loop, certainly less readable
2020-02-05T16:59:51Z sjl_: "paritition" as in "parity-partition"
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2020-02-05T17:01:00Z sjl_: but yeah, I'd just write a little utility function rather than trying to inline some combination of existing utils
2020-02-05T17:01:29Z phoe: I'll do the same
2020-02-05T17:03:21Z pfdietz95: (iter (while l) (collect (pop l) into even) (while l) (collect (pop l) into odd) (finally (return (values even odd))))
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2020-02-05T17:05:51Z pfdietz95: Or use LOOP and fewer parens.
2020-02-05T17:06:54Z pfdietz95: This could be a place to use IF places, if they were a thing (they are not).
2020-02-05T17:07:08Z pfdietz95: (push (pop l) into (if (evenp i) even odd))
2020-02-05T17:07:15Z pfdietz95: Er, no into
2020-02-05T17:07:26Z pfdietz95: (push (pop l) (if (evenp i) even odd))
2020-02-05T17:07:52Z pfdietz95: But one cannot conformantly such a thing to CL:IF.
2020-02-05T17:07:56Z phoe: (defun alternatingly (value-when-true &optional (initial-value nil) value-when-false) (let ((x (not initial-value))) (lambda (&rest rest) (declare (ignore rest)) (if (notf x) value-when-true value-when-false))))
2020-02-05T17:08:30Z phoe: (serapeum:partition (alternatingly t) '(a b c d e f g))
2020-02-05T17:10:30Z phoe: should make a decent addition to CL:CONSTANTLY
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2020-02-05T18:12:10Z pjb: Solution with loop without libraries: (let ((l '(a b c d e f g))) (loop with s for x in l if (setf s (not s)) collect x into a else collect x into b finally (return (values a b)))) #| --> (A C E G) ; (B D F) |#
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2020-02-05T19:21:55Z phoe: that works too
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2020-02-05T19:40:29Z pfdietz95: (notf s)
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2020-02-05T20:10:06Z phoe: I wish notf was declared as a standard macro
2020-02-05T20:10:09Z phoe: or at least in alexandria
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2020-02-05T20:11:42Z phoe: but yeah, https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/alexandria-devel/2018-February/000618.html
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2020-02-05T20:32:26Z pfdietz95: Heh, you already suggested it.  Nice. :)
2020-02-05T20:33:43Z pfdietz95: Am I the only one who finds the hu.dwim libraries problematic?  They seem to have gone off in an unusual direction.
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2020-02-05T20:35:14Z Blinda: hi
2020-02-05T20:35:44Z dlowe: pfdietz95: that's why they have the nickname hungarian common lisp
2020-02-05T20:36:23Z dlowe: I suspect anyone trying to make an actual product in a company will have something like hu.dwim
2020-02-05T20:36:33Z dlowe: they just usually won't share it
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2020-02-05T20:38:18Z Posterdati: hi
2020-02-05T20:38:37Z pjb: hi
2020-02-05T20:39:06Z Posterdati: pjb: :)
2020-02-05T20:41:08Z Posterdati: I'd like to submit some patches for cffi and gsll to make them run on openbsd 6.6
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2020-02-05T20:42:52Z pjb: Good idea.
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2020-02-05T20:49:00Z Posterdati: how can I submit them?
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2020-02-05T20:58:04Z pjb: Posterdati: check their git repository?  github, git.common-lisp.net, etc…
2020-02-05T20:58:51Z phoe: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/antik/gsll
2020-02-05T20:58:57Z phoe: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/
2020-02-05T20:59:06Z phoe: or just check the quicklisp-projects repo for where it fetches from
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2020-02-05T21:01:34Z Posterdati: phoe: thanks!
2020-02-05T21:01:40Z phoe: pfdietz95: problematic, as in?
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2020-02-05T21:02:28Z Posterdati: phoe: I had submitted them some time ago, but every new version lack these patch :(
2020-02-05T21:03:01Z Posterdati: phoe: I understand that openbsd is not a mainstream platform for develop in common lisp...
2020-02-05T21:04:41Z phoe: every new version? what do you mean?
2020-02-05T21:04:56Z phoe: were the PRs merged? if yes, are the changes available on Quicklisp?
2020-02-05T21:05:06Z Posterdati: they are not
2020-02-05T21:05:33Z phoe: are the PRs available on GitHub and clnet GitLab? if not, I'd start there
2020-02-05T21:05:45Z Posterdati: every time there's a new cffi or gsll version they are not patched for openbsd
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2020-02-05T21:07:55Z phoe: I am confused - if the master branches didn't accept your PR, then their new quicklisp versions won't have your changes
2020-02-05T21:08:11Z phoe: please ensure that the maintainers are aware of your patches
2020-02-05T21:08:23Z Posterdati: ok
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2020-02-05T22:56:09Z Xach: for some reason, building "lime" is taking forever on sbcl 1.5.8 on linux.
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2020-02-05T23:02:50Z phoe: Xach: is it making progress, or just stuck?
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2020-02-05T23:11:10Z edgar-rft: we'll never know because *forever*
2020-02-05T23:13:20Z phoe: God damn Turing completeness
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2020-02-05T23:14:45Z Xach: Just
2020-02-05T23:14:53Z Xach: stuck
2020-02-05T23:15:12Z Xach: It's building in a subprocess so it's not as easy as usual to interrupt and check the stack.
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2020-02-05T23:17:58Z Xach: Hmm!
2020-02-05T23:18:40Z Xach: It looks like lime tries to listen on a port and it stalls out if it can't.
2020-02-05T23:18:49Z Xach: And I had a stale process occupying the port.
2020-02-05T23:18:50Z Xach: Progress!
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2020-02-06T05:07:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-06T07:25:24Z no-defun-allowed: Hello phoe.
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2020-02-06T12:08:43Z clintm: Good morning, beach!
2020-02-06T12:08:55Z clintm: oh wow, those were old messages.
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2020-02-06T12:20:12Z beach: A bit, yes.
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2020-02-06T12:21:09Z ck_: what could be more timeless than courtesy
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2020-02-06T12:32:33Z phoe: Common Lisp, obviously
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2020-02-06T12:45:02Z jmercouris: OK, so GTK main thread != main thread when using CFFI GTK!
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2020-02-06T13:12:31Z jmercouris: OK, so I am using cl-cffi-gtk which relies on this kind of macro: within-main-loop
2020-02-06T13:12:31Z jmercouris: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/blob/master/gtk/gtk.init.lisp#L134
2020-02-06T13:12:53Z jmercouris: this is the main GTK loop, but not the main thread, macOS has problems drawing when the operations are not initiated from the main thread
2020-02-06T13:13:13Z jmercouris: thoughts on how to approach this?
2020-02-06T13:14:36Z jmercouris: so everything but webkitgtk+ webviews can draw... for some strange reason
2020-02-06T13:14:37Z pjb: Jump to the main thread.
2020-02-06T13:14:51Z jmercouris: I tried wrapping with trivial-main-thread, but it crashes with some memory exception
2020-02-06T13:15:11Z d4ryus: jmercouris: in what context is the gtk-main-loop started?
2020-02-06T13:15:28Z jmercouris: I have no idea what the context is, I'll share my code, one second
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2020-02-06T13:15:51Z jmercouris: here's my code: http://dpaste.com/3X4M6RH
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2020-02-06T13:15:55Z jmercouris: works just fine on Linux
2020-02-06T13:16:57Z Nilby: Maybe you could wrap calls that need it to bt:interrupt-thread the main thread instead?
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2020-02-06T13:18:01Z d4ryus: jmercouris: do you load this from via slime/swank?
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2020-02-06T13:19:00Z jmercouris: yes, I do
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2020-02-06T13:19:43Z jmercouris: Nilby: isn't that what trivial main thread does?
2020-02-06T13:21:08Z d4ryus: does it work if you: remove the quickload lines, remove the (start) line and run: sbcl --eval "(ql:quickload '(:trivial-main-thread :cl-webkit2))" --eval '(load "<the-file.lisp>")' --eval "(gtk-tutorial::start)"
2020-02-06T13:21:25Z jmercouris: Let me give that a try
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2020-02-06T13:22:35Z Nilby: Yes, but even better, so nevermind.
2020-02-06T13:23:12Z jmercouris: why not --load file.lisp? instead of --eval?
2020-02-06T13:24:07Z d4ryus: jmercouris: because i did not remember the syntax :)
2020-02-06T13:24:21Z jmercouris: d4ryus: there is some improvement for sure
2020-02-06T13:24:29Z jmercouris: it doesn't crash on window resize
2020-02-06T13:24:39Z jmercouris: still, it doesn't draw, despite the widget being created
2020-02-06T13:24:59Z jmercouris: again because it is not in the main thread
2020-02-06T13:25:20Z jmercouris: I believe the problem is that within-main-loop is within the main GTK loop, not the main thread
2020-02-06T13:25:28Z d4ryus: jmercouris: hmm, there should be no other thread besides the main thread now
2020-02-06T13:25:36Z jmercouris: is the GTK thread not a separate one?
2020-02-06T13:25:52Z jmercouris: I try to restart Xquartz, maybe there is state
2020-02-06T13:27:30Z jmercouris: no change
2020-02-06T13:27:36Z jmercouris: I monitor the network, I even see the requests
2020-02-06T13:28:05Z jmercouris: if there is only one thread, calling wrapping everything in trivial-main thread should cause it to lock?
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2020-02-06T13:28:48Z jmercouris: well, seems not
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2020-02-06T13:32:02Z d4ryus: jmercouris: from reading the tutorial, maybe you need to add the container first, before doing webkit-web-view-load-uri?
2020-02-06T13:33:01Z jmercouris: I'm desperate at this point, so why not :-D
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2020-02-06T13:33:21Z jmercouris: it is now the final form in within-main-loop
2020-02-06T13:33:54Z jmercouris: no difference I'm afraid
2020-02-06T13:34:07Z jmercouris: let me try again in my VM
2020-02-06T13:35:34Z jmercouris: still works in Linux world
2020-02-06T13:35:45Z jmercouris: added back the QL at the top: http://dpaste.com/1JRZAMK
2020-02-06T13:36:51Z jmercouris: so outside of SLIME, just in a terminal: sbcl --load webview-gtk.lisp
2020-02-06T13:41:03Z Nilby: Are other cl-cffi-gtk programs working in mac in the same setup, just not with webkit?
2020-02-06T13:43:25Z d4ryus: jmercouris: does the demo in demo/simple-browser.lisp work? (the difference seems to be that it calls gtk:join-gtk-main after within-main-loop)
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2020-02-06T13:53:49Z pfdietz: phoe: the hu.dwim style puts me off a bit.  It feels like they've overlaid too many differences on top of conventional CL idioms.
2020-02-06T13:54:41Z phoe: pfdietz: I feel the same way. To write their libs, they've defined their own language that they use instead of CL.
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2020-02-06T13:55:05Z Odin-: ... isn't that partly the point?
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2020-02-06T13:55:28Z pfdietz: All things in moderation.
2020-02-06T13:55:32Z jmercouris: Nilby: other programs are working with this set-up
2020-02-06T13:55:49Z phoe: Odin-: their code usually has not a single DEFUN or DEFPARAMETER or DEFCLASS
2020-02-06T13:55:51Z jmercouris: Nilby: I can show every widget except webview widgets, there seems to be something unique about them
2020-02-06T13:56:01Z phoe: everything is being defined using a single extensible DEF macro
2020-02-06T13:56:07Z Odin-: phoe: Hm. That is going a bit far, granted.
2020-02-06T13:56:10Z phoe: that's one novel thing that their code introduces and utilizes
2020-02-06T13:56:27Z phoe: I mean, sure, if you have an extensible SETF, why not have an extensible DEF
2020-02-06T13:56:32Z pfdietz: This is all tolerable until something breaks.   Then you have to learn their DSL to figure out what is going on.
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2020-02-06T13:56:38Z jmercouris: what I would likke to know how is to query which thread something is running on
2020-02-06T13:56:39Z phoe: but it is one more idiom that you have to understand and/or macroexpand in order t---
2020-02-06T13:56:42Z phoe: this
2020-02-06T13:56:48Z jmercouris: can I put a statement or so within the body of a defun that will print it's thread?
2020-02-06T13:57:17Z phoe: (print (bt:current-thread))
2020-02-06T13:57:41Z jmercouris: can someone help me understand CFFI a little bit better
2020-02-06T13:57:52Z jmercouris: let's say we call some C function, we are still in the same thread/process right?
2020-02-06T13:57:54Z phoe: Odin-: for instance, https://github.com/luismbo/hu.dwim.delico/blob/master/source/infrastructure.lisp
2020-02-06T13:57:59Z phoe: jmercouris: yes
2020-02-06T13:58:01Z Nilby: I remeber having trouble on mac, specificly with having to kick webkit threads. Sorry, my memory is fuzzy on it though.
2020-02-06T13:58:12Z phoe: you call a C function but this does not cause anything to switch threads
2020-02-06T13:58:20Z jmercouris: Nilby: I wish you remembered more
2020-02-06T13:58:43Z jmercouris: Nilby: I know certainly that when I exit my GTK program even if i call leave-gtk-main I have to restart SBCL to launch anything
2020-02-06T13:58:45Z phoe: the control of that thread switches to C code, and then eventually goes back to Lisp
2020-02-06T13:58:47Z jmercouris: it seems that remenants remain
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2020-02-06T14:00:45Z pfdietz: The hu.dwim code would feel better if they had copious documentation.   But I don't see many docstrings in there.  Sad, because they could have extended documentation as well.  That would have been a real contribution.
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2020-02-06T14:01:54Z jmercouris: I do have a setup that can launch a window successfully that shows a webkit view, just not with cl-cffi-gtk, I'm going to investigate to see if the thread count is different and what is running on which thread, perhaps it will provide some clues as to what is going on
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2020-02-06T14:02:47Z Nilby: Sorry, I'm not much help, since my mac broke and also I gave up making a webkit lisp browser.
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2020-02-06T14:03:07Z jmercouris: Nilby: what is your github / repository for your old work?
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2020-02-06T14:03:59Z Nilby: I never put it up, since it was crap. I was mostly doing it so I could make a dark mode hacking CSS in lisp.
2020-02-06T14:04:07Z jmercouris: Oh I see
2020-02-06T14:04:12Z jmercouris: leider
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2020-02-06T14:05:35Z phoe: pfdietz: Lisp code that doesn't document internally used macros is buggy Lisp code
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2020-02-06T14:05:52Z jmercouris: I disagree, lack of documentation is not a bug
2020-02-06T14:06:05Z jmercouris: unpleasant, annoying, but not a bug
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2020-02-06T14:06:24Z pfdietz: A primary purpose of code is to communicate to people reading it.   Code that fails at a primary purpose is bugged.
2020-02-06T14:06:26Z phoe: it is a bug
2020-02-06T14:06:35Z phoe: code is meant to be read first and foremost
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2020-02-06T14:06:44Z phoe: if your code is meant to be used by other people it means it is meant to be read by other people
2020-02-06T14:06:45Z jmercouris: someone reading the Peps? :-D
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2020-02-06T14:07:23Z jmercouris: anyways, it doesn't matter much, I probably shouldn't have said anything
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2020-02-06T14:08:53Z _death: there are no bugs without a spec
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2020-02-06T14:09:15Z phoe: http://dwim.hu/live/hu.dwim.def/documentation/def.lisp
2020-02-06T14:09:17Z jmercouris: that is my opinion as well
2020-02-06T14:09:23Z phoe: pfdietz: I actually smirked
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2020-02-06T14:10:52Z pfdietz: Bless their hearts
2020-02-06T14:11:42Z pfdietz: To be charitable, documentation is often deprioritized.
2020-02-06T14:12:18Z montaropdf: pfdietz: so true in almost every project I work for :()
2020-02-06T14:12:29Z montaropdf: s/()/(/
2020-02-06T14:12:47Z pfdietz: I like the frogface emoticon
2020-02-06T14:12:54Z montaropdf curses emacs auto-complete
2020-02-06T14:13:09Z phoe: I try to be the change I want to see in the world and at least document the basics of the stuff I set for public consumption
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2020-02-06T14:17:58Z jmercouris: OK
2020-02-06T14:18:02Z jmercouris: here is the more fascinating thing
2020-02-06T14:18:11Z jmercouris: I put as phoe suggested (print (bt:current-thread))
2020-02-06T14:18:12Z pfdietz: They had an opportunity with this def macro to put in enriched documentation. Not just strings, but structured information about the things being defined.   All sort of uses for that.
2020-02-06T14:18:20Z jmercouris: when I run from REPL I get two different threads
2020-02-06T14:18:29Z jmercouris: #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "worker" RUNNING {1002A42823}>  #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "cl-cffi-gtk main thread" RUNNING {1002A0CD03}>
2020-02-06T14:18:35Z jmercouris: when I run from a terminal, I only get one single print
2020-02-06T14:18:42Z jmercouris: #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1000560083}>
2020-02-06T14:18:53Z jmercouris: here is the code: http://dpaste.com/3WG37WY
2020-02-06T14:18:56Z jmercouris: how can there only be one print?
2020-02-06T14:19:27Z montaropdf: jmercouris: your run the repl from slime/sly?
2020-02-06T14:19:35Z jmercouris: my REPL is SLIME
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2020-02-06T14:19:49Z jmercouris: my swank lisp only contains (setf swank:*globally-redirect-io* t)
2020-02-06T14:19:50Z montaropdf: So I guess this is why you have 2 threads
2020-02-06T14:19:58Z montaropdf: One is for slime itself.
2020-02-06T14:20:05Z montaropdf: You are working with a mac?
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2020-02-06T14:20:10Z jmercouris: I am working with a mac, yes
2020-02-06T14:20:58Z montaropdf: I guess, that there is an issue with mac and thread allocation/access, but I can't recall what.
2020-02-06T14:21:12Z jmercouris: always so close, yet so far :'(
2020-02-06T14:21:19Z jmercouris: how can it be there is only one print?
2020-02-06T14:21:19Z montaropdf: It is a feature of MAC
2020-02-06T14:21:23Z jmercouris: that just blows my mind
2020-02-06T14:21:40Z jmercouris: as soon as we join the GTK main thread output ceases?
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2020-02-06T14:25:15Z jmercouris: interesting interesting
2020-02-06T14:25:20Z jmercouris: as soon as I kill the window, I get the second print
2020-02-06T14:25:21Z jmercouris: WHAT?
2020-02-06T14:25:54Z Nilby: One thing I used to check stuff was running under dtrace/strace on the command line to see what syscalls it's actually doing, where it might get stuck.
2020-02-06T14:26:31Z jmercouris: I will try, thank you
2020-02-06T14:26:38Z jmercouris: I'm also going to see which threads the working code is using
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2020-02-06T14:27:36Z Nilby: It can help with threads becuase it can cross library c-code boundaries. Sometimes there's another sneaky thread you can't see.
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2020-02-06T14:28:59Z phoe: jmercouris: maybe the buffer wasn't flushed after the print
2020-02-06T14:29:06Z phoe: (print ...) (finish-output)
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2020-02-06T14:29:24Z jmercouris: I check phoe
2020-02-06T14:29:36Z jmercouris: OK, mystery solved
2020-02-06T14:29:37Z jmercouris: you are correct
2020-02-06T14:29:58Z jmercouris: probably because it immediately switches contexts or something before it can write to stdout or something
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2020-02-06T14:32:13Z Nilby: Heh. I think that's why ccl used to do a sometimes annoying periodic (finish-output) in a background thread.
2020-02-06T14:32:24Z jmercouris: you know
2020-02-06T14:32:27Z jmercouris: I didn't try doing this in CCL
2020-02-06T14:32:31Z jmercouris: I'm going to try that
2020-02-06T14:34:53Z Nilby: CCL is "Made for MacOS" :P (macos 7 that is)
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2020-02-06T14:38:54Z jmercouris: CCL is made for you and me
2020-02-06T14:39:11Z jmercouris hums CCL theme song
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2020-02-06T15:55:18Z p_l: Nilby: which is why it doesn't work on release day for last two OS releases ;)
2020-02-06T15:55:33Z p_l: (or more correctly, OSX is that bad)
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2020-02-06T16:16:11Z Nilby: Yes. Ironicly maybe SBCL/CMU/Spice Lisp was made to run on the Mach kernel? Except it used to trigger a bad problem in Mach not even the BSD part.
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2020-02-06T17:01:38Z p_l: IIRC a program written in CCL once triggered a bug core to Mach in a way that was close to impossible to patch for years
2020-02-06T17:02:00Z p_l: CMU did work for some time on Mach, afaik, but it also worked on something that predated Mach
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2020-02-06T17:15:33Z Nilby: If it's the one I remember, it popped up a big message from the kernel every few instructions, which was hard to get rid of. I've never seen any other program trigger it.
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2020-02-06T17:49:55Z Xach: Hmm, what's a nice way to find out of a generic function was created implicitly via defmethod?
2020-02-06T17:50:03Z Xach: "find out if", rather
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2020-02-06T17:52:01Z scymtym: Xach: if you can live with an implementation-dependent solution as well as C-c C-c and (make-instance 'standard-generic-function …) giving false positives, you could check whether the generic function has a source location
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2020-02-06T23:47:30Z mrcom: Xach: (/me emerges from rabbit hole): Well, something that _doesn't_ work in SBCL is (SB-IMPL::INFO :FUNCTION :WHERE-FROM <func name>). DEFGENERIC sets WHERE-FROM to :DECLARED, but then calls ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION which clobbers it to :DEFINED-METHOD. compiler/globaldb.lisp says that :DECLARED is supposed to trump :DEFINED-METHOD, but ain't so.
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2020-02-07T00:15:09Z mrcom: Correction: DEFGENERIC sets WHERE-FROM to :DEFINED unless it's already DECLARED, but ENSURE-GENERIC-FUNCTION _does_ then unconditionally clobber it to :DEFINED-METHOD.
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2020-02-07T03:51:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-07T04:18:53Z Josh_2: morning beach
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2020-02-07T04:39:18Z no-defun-allowed: Can set-funcallable-instance-function be called more than once with one funcallable-instance?
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2020-02-07T05:25:47Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I don't understand.  Can you give an example?
2020-02-07T05:29:35Z no-defun-allowed: I'm working on FFI-ing Minecraft-obsfuscated Java to Common Lisp, and I have a obsfuscated-generic-function class which represents a foreign method. When created, it will set the funcallable-instance function to a function with lambda list (subject &rest arguments) which looks for a method for the SUBJECT and applies it with ARGUMENTS...
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2020-02-07T05:31:20Z no-defun-allowed: ...Once we have found that method, I think it would be helpful to set the funcallable-instance function to one with a lambda list that reflects the arguments that method takes, so that an editor like SLIME can display what arguments the generic function should be called with rather than (subject &rest arguments) which is not very helpful.
2020-02-07T05:32:10Z beach: Nothing prevents you from calling set-funcallable-instance-function inside the funcallable instance function.  You can even call it again at the end.
2020-02-07T05:32:15Z no-defun-allowed: To do that, we would have to set the function more than once; "to set *or to change* the function of a funcallable instance" suggests we could, but I'm not sure if I read that correctly.
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2020-02-07T05:33:44Z beach: You can set it as many times as you like.  We do that all the time when the effective-method cache is updated.
2020-02-07T05:34:03Z no-defun-allowed: Perfect, thank you.
2020-02-07T05:34:11Z beach: Anytime. :)
2020-02-07T05:34:19Z no-defun-allowed: (:
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2020-02-07T05:35:46Z asarch: From this code (from the PCL book): http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587796?ln=on&submit=Format+it%21
2020-02-07T05:35:50Z no-defun-allowed: Speaking of which, I made some progress with running ABCL in Minecraft, and was able to evaluate (minecraft:get-instance (jclass "net.minecraft.client.Minecraft")) after generating a package with all the methods from an obfuscation table, and it's slightly surreal.
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2020-02-07T05:36:12Z asarch: Are the lines #12 and #19 a condition handler?
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2020-02-07T05:37:25Z no-defun-allowed: Line 19 establishes a restart, and line 12 establishes a condition handler.
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2020-02-07T05:37:54Z asarch: Thank you!
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2020-02-07T05:46:21Z Demosthenex: anyone here into TXR (and it's sublisp language)?
2020-02-07T05:46:54Z Demosthenex: while not directly on topic, it has an embedded lisp so i thought maybe ;]
2020-02-07T05:47:34Z no-defun-allowed: It
2020-02-07T05:47:45Z no-defun-allowed: Er, it's not an implementation of Common Lisp.
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2020-02-07T05:49:54Z jeosol: aeth: in?
2020-02-07T05:50:23Z jeosol: pjb: ?
2020-02-07T05:50:59Z Demosthenex: well, it was a longshot. it's not a CL, though i think it's a lisp-2. it's for pattern matching and reverse here documents. i was having an issue iterating over files and it's an uncommon language
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2020-02-07T05:51:07Z Demosthenex: nvm
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2020-02-07T05:56:57Z loke: Demosthenex: I know the author posts on Reddit a lot, and he loves talking about his project. I'm sure he'll be happy to help you out directly.
2020-02-07T05:57:31Z loke: It's actually a pretty neat thing. I just have never gotten into it.
2020-02-07T05:57:41Z Demosthenex: loke: yeah, i've been stuck on one problem since yesterday, irc/ml are pretty dead
2020-02-07T05:58:03Z loke: Demosthenex: Ping him in Reddit.
2020-02-07T05:58:10Z Demosthenex: that's a thought
2020-02-07T06:00:52Z jeosol: Resolving "ALEXANDRIA" is already a nickname for "ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV".    error
2020-02-07T06:01:54Z jeosol: after some google search, this stackoverflow  link https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24094191/quicklisp-using-sbcl-getting-undefined-function-error-when-loading-various-libr suggests the problem is the order of (:nicknames ...) and (:use :cl) in the package.lisp file for alexandria
2020-02-07T06:02:21Z jeosol: Here is the top 3 lines in the package.lisp file
2020-02-07T06:02:22Z jeosol: (defpackage :alexandria.1.0.0  (:nicknames :alexandria)  (:use :cl)
2020-02-07T06:02:52Z loke: jeosol: Which file is that? Is that from the QL distribution of alexandria?
2020-02-07T06:03:05Z loke: Or did you download it serparately?
2020-02-07T06:03:15Z jeosol: alexandria-20191227-git version
2020-02-07T06:03:33Z jeosol: what do you mean? I recently made some update and there started getting that package name error
2020-02-07T06:03:48Z loke: Just a QL update?
2020-02-07T06:03:58Z jeosol: it loads fine if I run sbcl on the terminal, but the issue seems to be on the slime+emacs side
2020-02-07T06:04:33Z jeosol: loke: that is correct. I also normally update sbcl at month end, but the main change lately was the ql update
2020-02-07T06:04:48Z loke: jeosol: I'd start by clearing caches. Delete ~/.cache/common-lisp/
2020-02-07T06:05:00Z loke: and restart
2020-02-07T06:05:00Z jeosol: ok
2020-02-07T06:05:21Z loke: Do you have a separate version of alexandria installed in ~/quicklisp/local-projects ?
2020-02-07T06:07:48Z jeosol: loke: no
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2020-02-07T06:12:19Z jeosol: thanks. everything worked now. removed all files under the ~/.cache/common-lisp/ directory, restarted slime+emacs, systems loads cleanly now
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2020-02-07T06:17:47Z aeth: jeosol: ?
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2020-02-07T06:19:16Z aeth: If loke fixed your problem, then, yeah, clearing caches fixes a lot of problems. I've had to do that with ECL before a few times.
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2020-02-07T06:20:44Z jeosol: aeth: thanks. I buzzed you because I did a search of my problem and you and pjb name came up. Link here https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/lisp?around=1542000919
2020-02-07T06:21:36Z jeosol: all my previous sbcl versions were laying round from 1.x.x versions, so just emptied, and the system loaded all the packages correctly. Normally it craps up and I have to do it twice normally.
2020-02-07T06:25:33Z jeosol: any googler from the bay area here?
2020-02-07T06:27:09Z jeosol: trying to connect with someone in a group there
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2020-02-07T06:49:24Z asarch: In this piece of code: (handler-case (parse-log-entry text) (malformed-log-entry-error () nil)), is (malformed-log-entry-error () nil) the "catch" part?
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2020-02-07T06:54:21Z asarch: Yes, it is (in the JAVA-STYLE EXCEPTON HANDLING box explains it) :-P
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2020-02-07T06:58:34Z trittweiler: asarch, Yeah it is. To be precise, it actually is a syntactic construct that describes a function which is installed as the handler for MALFORMED-LOG-ENTRY-HANDLER.
2020-02-07T06:58:48Z trittweiler: *MALFORMED-LOG-ENTRY-ERROR
2020-02-07T06:58:57Z asarch: Thank you! :-)
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2020-02-07T08:31:31Z gaqwas: does anyone know of a tool or something that provides a measure of cyclomatic complexity and similar metrics of a common lisp program?
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2020-02-07T09:02:37Z splittist: gaqwas: Coppick and Cheatham did some stuff with Lisp Flavors back in the day. (Although I guess since cyclomatic complexity was developed with 60's FORTRAN that's comparatively modern...)
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2020-02-07T09:09:04Z gaqwas: splittist, thank you. I'm still not sure what it is that I need/I'm looking for. If it is cyclomatic complexity or whatever
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2020-02-07T11:33:21Z jmercouris: how to get ASDF version in REPL? asdf:version asdf:asdf-version doesn't resolve
2020-02-07T11:34:50Z jmercouris: is this really the way? https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#How-do-I-detect-the-ASDF-version_003f
2020-02-07T11:35:37Z Josh_2: (asdf:asdf-version) works for me
2020-02-07T11:35:40Z Nilby: (asdf:asdf-version)
2020-02-07T11:35:59Z jmercouris: Oh, it is a function
2020-02-07T11:36:09Z jmercouris: whooops :-)
2020-02-07T11:36:22Z Nilby: and it's actually (asdf/upgrade:asdf-version)
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2020-02-07T11:43:14Z jmercouris: so I cloned the ASDF repository ina place ASDF will find it
2020-02-07T11:43:17Z jmercouris: I'm using CCL now
2020-02-07T11:43:33Z jmercouris: and I do (asdf:asdf-version) which returns 3.3.3.6
2020-02-07T11:43:48Z jmercouris: all good so far, but as soon as I try to quickload anything, I get an error, and it reverts to some previous version of ASDF
2020-02-07T11:44:15Z jmercouris: http://dpaste.com/15TGT61
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2020-02-07T11:44:45Z jmercouris: this is my CCL init: http://dpaste.com/0KR9Q2J
2020-02-07T11:45:52Z Nilby: I have to just do a (load "...wherever../build/asdf") before loading quicklisp to use a different version.
2020-02-07T11:46:25Z jmercouris: Nilby: what is "...wherever../build/asdf"? the built version of ASDF?
2020-02-07T11:46:34Z jmercouris: should not be enough to require ASDF?
2020-02-07T11:46:47Z jmercouris: from the manual: "Once the source code for ASDF is installed, you don’t need any extra step to load it beyond the usual (require "asdf"): ASDF 3 will automatically look whether an updated version of itself is available amongst the regularly configured systems, before it compiles anything else."
2020-02-07T11:46:54Z Nilby: Yes, it's the built version.
2020-02-07T11:47:21Z jmercouris: OK, I might as well give it a shot
2020-02-07T11:47:26Z Nilby: Whet version you get with require depends on the implementation and can be different for each one.
2020-02-07T11:48:20Z jmercouris: OK, I've loaded the file directly, still no luck
2020-02-07T11:48:33Z jmercouris: still get an error with 2.26 in there
2020-02-07T11:49:10Z jmercouris: I'll ask in the CCL channel, perhaps it is implementation specific
2020-02-07T11:51:59Z Nilby: But unless you have your own hacked asdf like me, I think it's best to use what quicklisp gives you.
2020-02-07T11:52:45Z jmercouris: Nilby: what do you mean? Quicklisp comes with ASDF?
2020-02-07T11:53:03Z jmercouris: I was trying to upgrade the version of ASDF that comes with CCL
2020-02-07T11:53:09Z jmercouris: so I downloaded it from GitLab and built it
2020-02-07T11:53:23Z jmercouris: CCL comes with 2.2X or so ASDF, and it was preventing me from loading some systems
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2020-02-07T11:53:55Z Nilby: Yes, or it depends.
2020-02-07T11:57:05Z Nilby: For development I just load my own before loading quicklisp except for on #+(or excl abcl lispworks) I (require :asdf). It usually works. But I'm also loading asdf "3.3.2.13".
2020-02-07T11:58:00Z jmercouris: so then why did you tell me that (require :asdf) as was written in my ccl init would not work and to load it explicitly?
2020-02-07T11:58:38Z jmercouris: maybe my fasls from SBCL are interferring?
2020-02-07T11:58:53Z jmercouris: NVM, they are in a different cache folder
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2020-02-07T12:02:10Z Nilby: It could work. It's unfortunately somewhat complicated what exactly will happen. It seems like each thing has it's own version of asdf at different times. And things can get weird because it sometimes hooks into require.
2020-02-07T12:03:04Z Nilby: I might just attempt to patch whatever doesn't work with the default quicklisp.
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2020-02-07T12:07:41Z kmeow: being unable grok asdf is actually what's been keeping me from building real systems in CL
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2020-02-07T12:08:33Z jmercouris: Good luck, so much indirection in ASDF
2020-02-07T12:08:35Z Nilby: I have nearly 2000 lines of .lisprc just to get a REPL, so I'm probably not a good person to ask, since I obviously like to make things over-complicated.
2020-02-07T12:09:02Z jmercouris: I am oft frustrated with M-. not functioning
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2020-02-07T12:09:41Z kmeow: it's more straightforward to link together object code you've assembled than to figure out how to put CL code into modules correctly
2020-02-07T12:09:55Z jmercouris: ???
2020-02-07T12:09:59Z jmercouris: No, it isn't
2020-02-07T12:10:05Z kmeow: sure it is
2020-02-07T12:11:26Z Nilby: M-. is like the main feature of emacs/slime. There's a lot that has to line up to do it.
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2020-02-07T12:14:56Z Nilby: kmeow: I was very frustrated with that when I started too. But there's other ways to do things, and/or just copy other people's ways.
2020-02-07T12:15:37Z kmeow: oh I didn't mean in the sense of writing your own linker and assembler to do it, I meant using a linker and assembler as tools
2020-02-07T12:16:27Z kmeow: so my problem is I'll install packages with quicklisp or include code from different files I've written, and that'll work great for when I try to run the scripts
2020-02-07T12:16:40Z Nilby: Right. I agree the tools can be frustrating to use.
2020-02-07T12:16:47Z kmeow: but then not under some circumstances, like compiling to bytecode
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2020-02-07T12:18:47Z jmercouris: Nilby: Alright, so I did a simple (length (bt:all-threads)), and there are two threads... no matter what
2020-02-07T12:19:04Z jmercouris: so, certainly, cl-cffi-gtk is NOT running GTK on the main thread
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2020-02-07T12:19:23Z jmercouris: Looking at the project that it was forked from, there is an explanation of the macro within-main-loop
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2020-02-07T12:19:48Z jmercouris: please see here: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-gtk2/tutorial.html
2020-02-07T12:19:55Z jmercouris: towards the bottom titled "Main Loop"
2020-02-07T12:20:10Z jmercouris: I wonder if I can tweak this behavior to run on the main SBCL loop instead
2020-02-07T12:21:50Z Nilby is reading...
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2020-02-07T12:25:35Z Nilby: So, I haven't looked at how GTK is running on macos recently, but I know normal macos GUI stuff all has to happend from a "special" thread that the libraries know about? or maybe create?
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2020-02-07T12:29:52Z jmercouris: special thread? not sure about that
2020-02-07T12:29:55Z jmercouris: main thread though, yes
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2020-02-07T12:30:18Z Nilby: But if the backend was to XQuartz vs real Quartz/Metal it shouldn't matter as much, so I'm suspecting webkit does something special for rendering on osx.
2020-02-07T12:30:46Z jmercouris: WebKit does something special in general, it has been patched to work on macOS, this is WebKitGTK+
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2020-02-07T12:31:56Z Nilby: I might try observing what a trival C WebKitGTK program is doing, and then compare it to what was happening under Lisp.
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2020-02-07T12:33:04Z jmercouris: I have such a program... just not sure how to introspect it
2020-02-07T12:33:07Z Nilby: I wish I could help more. I used my mac for years after the keyboard & mouse broke, but then when the battery exploded.. :(
2020-02-07T12:33:12Z jmercouris: I also have a working program in macOS
2020-02-07T12:33:17Z jmercouris: in Lisp
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2020-02-07T12:36:30Z jmercouris: so in my example that works, everything does happen in the main thread
2020-02-07T12:36:51Z jmercouris: I'm going to try that
2020-02-07T12:37:33Z Nilby: I could barely imagine webkit restricting itself to 1 thread.
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2020-02-07T12:40:19Z Nilby: There used to be a debugger on osx that wasn't xcode and didn't require even C debugging stuff. I think it was called Shark or something. You could sort of observe what threads were up to.
2020-02-07T12:41:22Z Nilby: With dtruss/drace it might be harder to see what thread is doing what.
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2020-02-07T12:42:51Z jmercouris: I have some experience with dtrace, but I find it difficult to use
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2020-02-07T12:46:12Z Nilby: I would bet Shinmera or rme would know better than me though.
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2020-02-07T12:58:58Z flip214: any ideas when ELS early bird registrations will start?
2020-02-07T13:00:40Z Shinmera: Hopefully soon.
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2020-02-07T14:42:05Z pjb: minion: memo for jeosol: you would have to remove the nickname from the old package before defining the new one or renaming it.  This is done with rename-package. Something like: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (when (find-package :alexandria.0.dev) (rename-package :alexandria.0.dev '()))) (defpackage :alexandria.1.0 (:use :cl) (:nicknames :alexandria))
2020-02-07T14:42:05Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jeosol when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-02-07T15:00:20Z flip214: Shinmera: thanks
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2020-02-07T16:28:13Z flip214: "apt-get dist-upgrade" just brought me a new ECL!     Sadly it's still some 16.1.3 and not a 20.x ;/
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2020-02-07T18:34:40Z jeosol: Good morning guys
2020-02-07T18:34:40Z minion: jeosol, memo from pjb: you would have to remove the nickname from the old package before defining the new one or renaming it.  This is done with rename-package. Something like: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (when (find-package :alexandria.0.dev) (rename-package :alexandria.0.dev '()))) (defpackage :alexandria.1.0 (:use :cl) (:nicknames :alexandria))
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2020-02-07T18:35:43Z jeosol: pjb: Thanks I got the memo. It was a kind of weird issue but it's fixed now. I will save the code snippet you sent me
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2020-02-07T18:39:53Z jeosol: Do you guys have options or better way of managing configurations/parameter settings. Right now, I use some global variables and when I switch problem case (different application), I would like to update those variables to reflect the setting in the new problem case. It is getting difficult to manage as I need to remember to put that new global I
2020-02-07T18:39:54Z jeosol: added into the function call to cause the update
2020-02-07T18:41:15Z jeosol: I normally switch between two problem cases: Case 1: Simpler case, runs fast and used for testing and debugging. This can be read as the simpler version of the actual problem . Case 2: Actual problem, memory intensive, runs slower (not CL side but external application)
2020-02-07T18:43:42Z jeosol: I have different groups of global variables if you will that are used to create several CLOS objects. When I switch problem cases, the variables take different values. The problem cases are switch by loading (ql:quickload ...) a different system
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2020-02-07T18:46:06Z jeosol: Also, I am willing to move away from my current approach if there is a better way
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2020-02-07T18:49:26Z phoe: sounds like a use case for https://github.com/Shinmera/ubiquitous
2020-02-07T18:49:54Z phoe: either that, or do not use any globals at all - instead, make a config class that holds all the configuration parameters
2020-02-07T18:50:07Z phoe: and explicitly call your main function with an instance of this config class with all the fields filled in
2020-02-07T18:50:56Z Nilby: One easy way is to make different commands/functions for differnt configs,  (defun slow-run (let ((*iters* 1e100)) (foo)))
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2020-02-07T18:55:25Z jeosol: Nilby: Thanks. When I load the slower application, it has the settings to for that test
2020-02-07T18:56:05Z jeosol: phoe: Thanks for the link. I think that could be the solution to these problem. Dealing with the globals for the large application, is getting hard to manage.
2020-02-07T18:58:07Z jeosol: like you said, I'd like to move away from using global variable approach. Also, this will force me to have a unified interface for all the test cases -- right now, they are different based on problem instances.
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2020-02-07T18:59:08Z jeosol: problem instances -> problem cases
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2020-02-07T19:05:52Z phoe: jeosol: globals stop being fun the moment you need to actually manage your configuration
2020-02-07T19:06:10Z phoe: especially if you also rebind them
2020-02-07T19:06:22Z phoe: s/globals/globals for configuration/
2020-02-07T19:06:50Z jeosol: phoe: I agree 101%. It hasn't been fun lately, and making me want to run away from my application
2020-02-07T19:07:09Z jeosol: I figured, I'd just stop now, figure out a better way, and then move ahead again
2020-02-07T19:07:35Z jeosol: the switch back and forth was an issue, usually, I'd miss one global, then I need to add it to the function for the update.
2020-02-07T19:08:26Z jeosol: Everything works fine though, but with more work each time.
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2020-02-07T19:09:58Z jeosol: If I could have this large config object, that I could look and edit occasionally, not necessarily like XML but loadable. I can make changes there, load it, and then I am good to go by just loading it
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2020-02-07T19:11:23Z jeosol: dmitri fontane(?) did mention to look at esrap when I mentioned this a while back at comp.lang.lisp. It seem like a lot of work to write the readers then, so I opted for the approach of globals
2020-02-07T19:12:01Z jeosol: I am not expert in writing the esrap readers at the time.
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2020-02-07T19:14:01Z phoe: jeosol: ubiquitous has config files
2020-02-07T19:14:14Z phoe: they are human-readable, so you can edit stuff there
2020-02-07T19:14:26Z jeosol: I'd say though, I will never attempt the application I am working on C++ as it would have taken a lot of effort
2020-02-07T19:14:39Z jeosol: phoe: you mean after writing the config files to disk?
2020-02-07T19:14:43Z phoe: t
2020-02-07T19:14:50Z phoe: let me give you an example...
2020-02-07T19:15:17Z jeosol: That's probably the way to go there, I need to be able to change my code, add the write variable in the config file so when read, it accounts for that change in the input
2020-02-07T19:15:28Z jeosol: s/there/then
2020-02-07T19:15:30Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1669#1669
2020-02-07T19:16:13Z jeosol: This is the way it writes the config file?
2020-02-07T19:16:48Z jeosol: That's sweet.
2020-02-07T19:16:56Z phoe: yes
2020-02-07T19:17:11Z phoe: they are trees of key-value pairs
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2020-02-07T19:17:50Z phoe: where each node that is a hash table might be treated as a leaf but may also be treated as a node leading to next leaves
2020-02-07T19:17:52Z jeosol: I have been missing out. I tried a simple plist one time but not not managed at all.
2020-02-07T19:18:40Z jeosol: That's great. It should do what I need. My inputs are large in the hundreds of parameters leading to creation of several CLOS instances that then goes into the final object.
2020-02-07T19:19:14Z jeosol: I can use it to structure the inputs in small groups so they are manageable, and I could easily go to a section, and change or add some new input info
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2020-02-07T19:21:42Z jeosol: Thanks for the sample config file. This should help a lot.
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2020-02-07T19:23:42Z pjb: jeosol: in gneneral, don't use load (or even less quickload) to set variables and stuff.  Instead, let loading files or system define functions, and use those functions to set variables and stuff.
2020-02-07T19:24:13Z pjb: jeosol: having toplevel forms in files to do stuff can be a PITA in other circumstances.
2020-02-07T19:25:04Z jeosol: unfortunately, I have used both approaches, especially the second more.
2020-02-07T19:25:36Z phoe: jeosol: as long as your objects are isomorphic to a set of mutually linked hash-tables that contain readable Lisp data, ubiquitous is a natural fit for the job.
2020-02-07T19:25:38Z jeosol: What about if you have a saving CLOS object in the config? Does that work.
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2020-02-07T19:26:21Z phoe: jeosol: oh, you want to be able to dump arbitrary Lisp objects?
2020-02-07T19:26:25Z pjb: I define configurations as a CLOS class, so I can have several configurations as CLOS instances.
2020-02-07T19:26:38Z pjb: I have methods to load and save the configuration instances to files.
2020-02-07T19:27:06Z jeosol: PJB: that sounds nice, not sure I can get to that,
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2020-02-07T19:27:18Z jeosol: amount of work?
2020-02-07T19:28:01Z pjb: very little.
2020-02-07T19:28:03Z pjb: It's easy.
2020-02-07T19:28:15Z jeosol: I have a large CLOS object (3d grid) that I use and has to be updated when I switch problem instances. Maybe saving the file path in the config file so I can read it back when I load the config file
2020-02-07T19:29:18Z jeosol: To give example, I have a 100x1x20 for my simple test case (2000 cells), but the large case can be 300,000 - 500,000 cells and several calculations have to be performed (once) and then I save the object.
2020-02-07T19:30:09Z _death: maybe you could store this object and the associated parameters in an sqlite database
2020-02-07T19:30:11Z phoe: I'd not dump it as a Lisp file
2020-02-07T19:30:34Z jeosol: Right now, I have a global *corner-point-grid* that stores the value when I switch configuration. after the switch, the grid is re-loaded/re-created each time, except for the large case, I start from a core file that has the grid loaded in
2020-02-07T19:30:35Z phoe: either store it in a binary form on the disk and load from there, or do what _death suggests
2020-02-07T19:31:18Z pjb: The nice thing is that once you have an object, it doesn't matter how things are done.  You just send a message to the object. (or call a generic function).  Saving to a file, to xml, to sexp, to a database or whatever, who cares!
2020-02-07T19:31:30Z jeosol: _death: really, store as what type in the db, except I am not understanding what you mean
2020-02-07T19:31:47Z pjb: (let ((*configuration*  (load-configuration *name*))) (do-stuff))
2020-02-07T19:33:13Z jeosol: I did try using postgres (not what you suggested) but save the operations in a database table and tried to call it, but it turns out to be slower (at least on my linux machine). So now, I do all the calculations and save the image for faster restart.
2020-02-07T19:34:02Z jeosol: phoe: you don't recommend storing this as a lisp file?
2020-02-07T19:34:54Z jeosol: pjb: I guess your code snippet is with the ubiquitous approach, right?
2020-02-07T19:35:18Z pjb: Yes.
2020-02-07T19:35:59Z phoe: jeosol: I mean, 500000 cells seems like a lot
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2020-02-07T19:36:45Z phoe: ooh, you want to only save the file path to that file in ubiquitous - or did I get you wrong?
2020-02-07T19:36:55Z jeosol: phoe: The 500,000 cells is the whole grid, treated as a single instance. They are not separated cells per se.
2020-02-07T19:36:58Z _death: jeosol: if you don't care about interoperability, you can use cl-store to produce a blob that you can store in sqlite
2020-02-07T19:37:13Z phoe: jeosol: OK
2020-02-07T19:37:36Z jeosol: phoe: I was thinking saving a path where the object is serialized, e.g., using restore to read it back in.
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2020-02-07T19:38:13Z jeosol: _death: right now, I use cl-store to save the final object to a file and save the file path.
2020-02-07T19:38:48Z phoe: jeosol: that's good, ubiquitous will serve you well in that case
2020-02-07T19:39:21Z jeosol: but this not saving the grid object, but the final, larger CLOS object that holds everything that then allows me to do Y=F(X), where X is the larger, final object, that also includes the grid object
2020-02-07T19:40:14Z jeosol: phoe: so saving the grid file path in the config, and when the file path is read, I serialize the object back in. This is a better?
2020-02-07T19:41:13Z phoe: jeosol: yes. Basically, store blobs outside the configuration itself.
2020-02-07T19:41:54Z phoe: The configuration can contain namestrings to these files and such, but blobs shouldn't be dumped into config files themselves and instead should be standalone.
2020-02-07T19:42:37Z jeosol: That makes sense. Also, I would be editing those config files based on changes in code.
2020-02-07T19:46:21Z phoe: or editing them programmatically
2020-02-07T19:46:24Z phoe: if you feel like it, that is
2020-02-07T19:47:02Z phoe: #'(setf ubiquitous:value) is there if you need it
2020-02-07T19:48:03Z jeosol: That would be a nice feature.
2020-02-07T19:49:09Z jeosol: reading the page now. Do you know if there is a facility for grouping, or I could create that myself. So when the file is written, I could see the groups and go to the right section
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2020-02-07T19:54:56Z jeosol: _death, pjb, phoe: Thanks guys for all the hints and suggestions. If you drink beer, accept a virtual one from me :-). I'll get to work on this over the next few days
2020-02-07T19:55:28Z phoe: jeosol: grouping? what do you mean?
2020-02-07T19:55:50Z phoe: configuration is organized into hash tables which can hold other hash tables as values - this creates a tree structure
2020-02-07T19:55:58Z phoe: I think that's the kind of grouping you seek
2020-02-07T19:56:11Z jeosol: phoe: I meant maybe it writes the output in some order which I could easily make to be same as my program input
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2020-02-07T19:56:33Z jeosol: phoe: That's correct. That's the grouping I was thinking about
2020-02-07T19:56:59Z jeosol: I just need to create the other hash tables to get the right structure I need
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2020-02-07T20:02:27Z phoe: jeosol: no need to create the hash tables yourself, use a proper combination of #'(setf value) calls
2020-02-07T20:02:32Z phoe: ubi will create the proper HTs for you
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2020-02-07T20:03:10Z jeosol: I see. I'm playing around with it now on the repl and will look at a sample output
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2020-02-08T00:14:57Z oystewh: trying to get cl-async to work on mac, but it stalls on some compilation because cffi/grovel/whatever-it-is uses /usr/bin/clang rather than the one installed through macports (and appropriately added to the path). any ideas for a good fix?
2020-02-08T00:15:36Z White_Flame: symlink?
2020-02-08T00:16:01Z oystewh: too dirty a fix.. might break something else
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2020-02-08T07:02:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-08T11:22:04Z Josh_2: can I redirect *error-output* to a file? I keep getting an error flash up but not long enough to read it
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2020-02-08T11:52:05Z beach: Josh_2: Sure.
2020-02-08T11:52:11Z LdBeth: sure, just bind a file io to that variable
2020-02-08T11:52:39Z LdBeth: hello beach
2020-02-08T11:52:48Z beach: Hey LdBeth.
2020-02-08T11:52:53Z Josh_2: LdBeth: how do I do that
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2020-02-08T11:54:28Z LdBeth: Josh_2: (with-open-file (*error-output* #P"path/to/file") body ...)
2020-02-08T11:54:43Z Josh_2: Okay thanks :)
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2020-02-08T12:50:32Z pjb: LdBeth: the only streams it's not advised to redirect are *terminal-io* and *debug-io*…
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2020-02-08T12:52:02Z p_l: and I'd say that it's more "don't do this till you know how to do it safely"
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2020-02-08T13:08:44Z Nilby: for be like me and forget you redirected the debugger to another window and kill it only to realize later it was waiting patiently to be debugged
2020-02-08T13:08:50Z Nilby: *or
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2020-02-08T14:59:05Z LdBeth: do you all keep up to date with latest lisp version?
2020-02-08T14:59:24Z _death: version 1994 going strong
2020-02-08T15:00:48Z pjb: (lisp-implementation-version) #| --> "Version 1.12-dev (v1.12-dev.4-4-gd9740256) Darwinx8664" |#  Yep.
2020-02-08T15:11:02Z edgar-rft: LdBeth: yes :-)
2020-02-08T15:11:23Z Josh_2: I just use whats in my package manager, so on 1.4.9 right now
2020-02-08T15:11:28Z Josh_2: sbcl
2020-02-08T15:12:56Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: I think that is not the *Lisp* version
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2020-02-08T15:25:00Z shinohai: Still using sbcl 1.5.7 here, haven't tried building 2.0.x yet because I'm using musl.
2020-02-08T15:26:04Z oni-on-ion: #| -> "2.0.0" |#
2020-02-08T15:29:14Z Josh_2: edgar-rft: it is the current stable version on portage
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2020-02-08T15:32:34Z Nilby: 1.5.0.45-920fce9-dirty v1.12-dev.3-20-g05d6af0 I guess not. :(
2020-02-08T15:34:10Z Nilby: All up to date with clisp though :P
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2020-02-08T15:37:11Z edgar-rft: Josh_2: there is only *one* Lisp version (ANSI Common Lisp from 1994), you're talking about the implementation version
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2020-02-08T15:39:45Z Josh_2: now that's just being pedantic xd
2020-02-08T15:40:44Z oni-on-ion: nah, don't think so! why ask if everyone is up to date since 1994 ??
2020-02-08T15:41:03Z Nilby: I have a feeling there's so many defacto extensions in use, most of the things in quicklisp wouldn't run on 1994 common lisps.
2020-02-08T15:41:45Z Bike: hm, you think? i don't think actual language extensions are all that common
2020-02-08T15:41:50Z Bike: OS interface libraries, maybe
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2020-02-08T15:44:41Z Nilby: It's somewhat hidden things, like FFI's and OS access, character encoding, etc.
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2020-02-08T15:44:53Z oni-on-ion: well, there is asdf also
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2020-02-08T15:50:11Z Bike: oh, character encodings maybe
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2020-02-08T15:53:14Z Shinmera: Nilby: a lot of things also won't run on implementations of today. https://shinmera.github.io/portability/
2020-02-08T15:55:37Z Nilby: I know. I get a bit sad every time I try doing a round of portability checks.
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2020-02-08T15:57:41Z oni-on-ion: does CL have any other remaining features after portability becomes mythical?
2020-02-08T15:59:09Z Nilby: Shinmera: Thanks for doing that grid. It's very useful.
2020-02-08T15:59:48Z Shinmera: Sure. Just wish it was more accurate and kept better up to date :)
2020-02-08T16:00:36Z ebrasca: oni-on-ion: Some parts are better if they have portability.
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2020-02-08T16:03:09Z oni-on-ion: hmm
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2020-02-08T16:18:35Z ebrasca: oni-on-ion: What do you do with usocket wichout portability?
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2020-02-08T20:52:21Z aeth: I'm sure a lot of code implicitly assumes 64-bit, while the standard back in 1994 sets its minimum requirements such that even 16-bit implementations are possible. e.g. Any docstring larger than 1024 is technically non-conforming because strings are just arrays and ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT can be as low as 1024.
2020-02-08T20:53:19Z aeth: And it would be pretty irrational to code for a hypothetical implementation with 1024-max-sized-strings when nearly everyone's using 64-bit implementations and all of the rest are using 32-bit implementations.
2020-02-08T20:54:30Z aeth: If you code for 64-bit implementations, then it still runs in 32-bit, but slower. If you code for maximum portability, then you have to spend a lot of time working around limits like 1024-length arrays that you could reasonably run into in your program, for the benefit of 0 users.
2020-02-08T20:55:00Z pjb: However, 32-bit limitations are often too small too.  Therefore it would not be entirely idiotic to use a library to wrap limited data structures in extended data structure on small implementations.
2020-02-08T20:55:29Z oni-on-ion: so the best is dynamic-bit system ?
2020-02-08T20:55:39Z pjb: However, with such a library, #\" would have to read long string literals as a different data type, that could not be used with cl:documentation.
2020-02-08T20:56:03Z aeth: pjb: Yes, but the 32-bit limitations are usually 512 MB to 4 GB (probably not 4 GB because of tag bits), so they're much harder to reach (though possible)
2020-02-08T20:56:18Z pjb: On the other hand, those limitations exist because of actual physical memory space limitations, so it wouldn't be bad to issue a warning and store them on disk.
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2020-02-08T20:58:06Z pjb: But you're right that with time passing, this becomes less and less of a problem, unless you want to write lisp code for Arduino or ESP32…
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2020-02-08T20:59:54Z aeth: pjb: You probably can do a space-extending trick about 4 times because of tag bits meaning you can't allocate up to the maximum memory limitations (assuming that the system is at the maximum the platform can support!). At the very least a bit under twice, but probably a bit under three times.
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2020-02-08T21:01:12Z aeth: If you're doing typical tag bits, at best you can do what 64-bit SBCL does and have 1 tag bit, but that's a signed integer, so it's like effectively losing 2 bits for positive numbers. So a limit of e.g. 4 GB for 32-bit would become 1 GB at best (even 32-bit SBCL doesn't do things this way, unlike 64-bit SBCL, though!), even if you have 4 GB RAM available.
2020-02-08T21:02:02Z aeth: So, actually, correction, you could do this space extension 4x
2020-02-08T21:02:28Z froggey: tag bits are typically stored in the low bits, not the high bits, so they don't take away from the maximum supported memory
2020-02-08T21:06:12Z aeth: froggey: Right, but my point is you probably cannot e.g. have an array the size of the maximum supported memory because of ARRAY-TOTAL-SIZE-LIMIT
2020-02-08T21:06:34Z aeth: froggey: And pjb's point was (afaik) to wrap around that, e.g. an array of size 4 or a list of size 4 that extends an array to reach the memory limit
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2020-02-08T21:07:36Z froggey: oh, right. I missed the bit about A-T-S-L
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2020-02-08T21:08:29Z aeth: My original point is that this is something no one thinks about because people mostly implicitly write for 64-bit (where this won't be an issue for 10-15 years, and even then only on huge servers) instead of portably. Of course, most 64-bit code will run on 32-bit implementations, just slower (e.g. boxed single-floats and bignum (unsigned-bit 64)s) and the real issue is when you want full portability to e.g. max-size-1024 arrays.
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2020-02-08T21:12:21Z pfdietz: There are other places where programs make assumptions that go beyond the standard.  A common one is to assume that standard functions that return boolean will return T for true.
2020-02-08T21:13:28Z pjb: (log (expt 2 64) 10) #| --> 19.26592 |#
2020-02-08T21:13:43Z aeth: pfdietz: That seems justifiable to me. The type BOOLEAN is T or NIL.
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2020-02-08T21:14:33Z pjb: If it returns booleans, you should.  But most return generalized booleans, not booleans.
2020-02-08T21:14:42Z pfdietz: Yes, but for almost all such functions they are described as returning a "generalized boolean".
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2020-02-08T21:15:11Z pfdietz: WHich means, any damn thing they want for true, except nil.
2020-02-08T21:15:34Z pfdietz: I had wrap so many expressions in (notnot ...) in ansi-tests.
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2020-02-08T21:15:56Z aeth: pfdietz: well, generalized boolean is different, and is effectively describing (NOT NULL)
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2020-02-08T21:16:33Z aeth: I'm not sure where people assume T but get (NOT NULL) though. Probably in some places
2020-02-08T21:16:41Z pfdietz: The point being, programs often assume the implementation will return T for true, because most will do that.
2020-02-08T21:17:24Z aeth: pfdietz: oh I see, stuff like NUMBERP are described as returning generalized-boolean so (numberp 42) could plausibly return 42
2020-02-08T21:17:52Z pfdietz: One place this comes up is in (typep x '(member ...)).  If that translates to a call to MEMBER, then T is not the returned value for true.
2020-02-08T21:18:17Z pfdietz: Some implementations returns different values there depending on optimization settings.
2020-02-08T21:19:02Z aeth: weird
2020-02-08T21:19:59Z pfdietz: BTW, if you want a mostly pointless efficiency hack:  it's faster to return 0 and check for eql to that, instead of checking for eq to NIL.  The object code is more compact.  Lousy style, of course.
2020-02-08T21:20:27Z pfdietz: (this is in user code; standard fns cannot do that)
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2020-02-08T21:21:20Z Nilby: but then there's digit-char-p
2020-02-08T21:22:26Z aeth: I'm not sure why that's digit-char-p and not digit-char
2020-02-08T21:22:51Z aeth: It seems like a mistake to have -P when its return is potentially meaningful
2020-02-08T21:23:17Z Nilby: I'm guessing historical reasons.
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2020-02-08T21:25:08Z TMA: I would guess that the non-"-P" alternative would suggest the return value is undefined (or useless) for non-digit characters
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2020-02-08T21:46:12Z pjb: aeth: history.
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2020-02-08T22:58:35Z aeth: pjb: yeah, now show the version of that photo but with RAM... and compare the price tag, too :-p
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2020-02-08T23:05:52Z pjb: aeth: they're SSD, almost as good as RAM.
2020-02-08T23:06:06Z pjb: aeth: just consider the SD-RAM as L3 cache.
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2020-02-08T23:06:41Z aeth: Although, actually to be fair, my bad, 4 PB is the limit of AMD64 (actually 256 TB until it's raised, but it is raisable), but not 64-bit in general. 4 PB is 2^52 and should be a fixnum in most 64-bit implementations. And that's the limit that will potentially be reached "soon" (10-15 years?) for very high end servers.
2020-02-08T23:09:06Z aeth: AMD is 6 doublings away from reaching the temporary limit in AMD64's architecture (from 4 TB for EPYC 2 to 256 TB)... and then if I did my LOG ... 2 correctly they're 10 capacity doublings away from the overall platform limit for AMD64.
2020-02-08T23:10:48Z aeth: And that's 12 doublings less than what 64-bit as a whole could address in theory...
2020-02-08T23:11:28Z aeth: Quite a few tag bits (11) permitted for fixnums on at least x86-64, the most popular 64 bit.
2020-02-08T23:11:52Z aeth: (As far as making e.g. an array the size of memory.)
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2020-02-08T23:13:50Z aeth: I'm guessing that 6 doublings means they'll raise the architectural limit to its theoretical max in 6-12 years (although Intel might be ahead of AMD here) and then it's 4-8 more years before they might have to do something more drastic (if that's even possible). And even then, it would only affect very large servers, like you might see in cloud computing.
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2020-02-08T23:20:25Z Nilby: or just set the terminal to infinite scrollback and compile sbcl, 4PB easy
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2020-02-08T23:20:56Z aeth: Nilby: well, I mean, if it's *infinite* scrollback...
2020-02-08T23:24:59Z Nilby: perhaps I should have said "unlimited", which we know is in practice always less than most-positive-fixnum
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2020-02-08T23:28:09Z aeth: Oh, and fwiw in SBCL (log array-total-size-limit 2) => 62.0 which is the maximum it can be with 1 tag bit on the fixnum (because fixnums are signed) which is more than the 4 PB (2^52) that x86-64 can have as its memory. I wonder if there's a 64-bit platform where that's not enough, though. Or if x86-64 could one day be extended so that that's not enough. Not really an issue for the next 20 years, probably.
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2020-02-08T23:31:35Z aeth: For "ARM architecture" on Wikipedia, it says "Memory translation from 48-bit virtual addresses based on the existing Large Physical Address Extension (LPAE), which was designed to be easily extended to 64-bit." which I guess means that for ARM it's 2^48 (exactly the same as the current x86-64) and eventually will be 2^64 (unlike the eventual 2^52 for x86-64)
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2020-02-08T23:37:17Z Nilby: There must be a better way than pushing so many electrons around.
2020-02-08T23:37:23Z aeth: This is a lot of text to say that "limits don't matter on 64-bit implementations even in the decade of the 2020s", though. At least 2-3 decades of programming without having to think about architectural limits. 64 bit has been a bit magical in that sense.
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2020-02-09T09:08:00Z Inline: morning
2020-02-09T09:08:07Z Josh_2: Mornin'
2020-02-09T09:10:32Z beach: Hello Inline.  Hello Josh_2.
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2020-02-09T09:12:41Z Inline: heya beach :)
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2020-02-09T11:32:26Z momozor: Hi
2020-02-09T11:32:32Z Josh_2: ello
2020-02-09T11:33:14Z momozor: I'm not sure how to "cast" a string to a pathname. I have a function that works like this.
2020-02-09T11:33:27Z momozor: (make-project #P string)
2020-02-09T11:35:05Z Josh_2: you can pass a string in place of a pathname
2020-02-09T11:35:35Z momozor: (make-project #P "/path/to/anywhere") works
2020-02-09T11:35:50Z momozor: but I want to pass a variable with a string in it
2020-02-09T11:36:01Z momozor: instead of the literal
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2020-02-09T11:38:43Z pjb: momozor: (pathname "/tmp/foo") #| --> #P"/tmp/foo" |#
2020-02-09T11:39:32Z pjb: momozor: but indeed, most functions don't take just a pathname, but instead a pathname designator.  And strings are pathname designators.
2020-02-09T11:40:40Z pjb: see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_aa.htm
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2020-02-09T11:48:46Z momozor: it seems even (make-project (pathname *the-string*)) won't do
2020-02-09T11:49:10Z momozor: i think the function i'm trying to use is doing something else
2020-02-09T11:49:40Z momozor: https://github.com/fukamachi/cl-project/blob/966a9720330fddf37344194b69d64df10f1b3e02/src/cl-project.lisp#L19
2020-02-09T11:49:51Z momozor: this means I can only pass literal string?
2020-02-09T11:50:04Z momozor: :(
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2020-02-09T11:59:48Z phoe: momozor: what function is that?
2020-02-09T11:59:55Z phoe: #'quickproject:make-project?
2020-02-09T12:01:07Z phoe: oooooh
2020-02-09T12:01:19Z phoe: fukamachiware
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2020-02-09T12:01:36Z phoe: (make-project (pathname *string*)) should work then
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2020-02-09T12:02:56Z momozor: pjb, phoe: ooops. my bad. (pathname path) actually works. The issue was my variable that I want to pass was not the appropriate type
2020-02-09T12:03:27Z momozor: thanks for suggestions guys! :D
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2020-02-09T14:02:06Z sabrac: grump. My unicode normalization tests pass in sbcl, ccl and ecl. About 5% failure rate on abcl and allegro.
2020-02-09T14:03:14Z Shinmera: sabrac: does your normalisation implement a UAX standard?
2020-02-09T14:03:42Z sabrac: nfkc, nfc, nfd, nfkc
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2020-02-09T14:04:33Z Shinmera: So UAX-15?
2020-02-09T14:04:42Z sabrac: Yes. 385000 test cases from unicode.org
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2020-02-09T14:04:58Z Shinmera: Ok, cool, one less thing for me to implement :)
2020-02-09T14:05:26Z Nilby: sabrac: Will you be publishing the code when you're done? That sounds useful.
2020-02-09T14:05:36Z sabrac: Definitely
2020-02-09T14:05:42Z Nilby: Nice. Thank you!
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2020-02-09T14:06:49Z Shinmera: That leaves UAX11, UAX29, and UAX50 that I still need to do.
2020-02-09T14:07:12Z sabrac: The world is too complicated
2020-02-09T14:07:26Z Shinmera: indeed
2020-02-09T14:08:03Z Shinmera: At least UAX9, 14, and 15 are done, which I think are more problematic than the other three.
2020-02-09T14:08:21Z Nilby: There's code to do normalization in cmu, but I find that code rather difficult.
2020-02-09T14:10:12Z Shinmera: Though actually UAX14 will probably require revisions to speed it up
2020-02-09T14:10:41Z Shinmera: (not the standard mind you, the implementation of it)
2020-02-09T14:11:22Z Nilby: Shinmera: You wrote all of those 9, 14, 15 did you?
2020-02-09T14:11:42Z Shinmera: no, no, sabrac did 15 as he just said
2020-02-09T14:11:45Z Shinmera: I did 9 and 14
2020-02-09T14:11:50Z Nilby: oh right
2020-02-09T14:12:09Z Shinmera: and I intended to do the remaining three I listed, but got busy (and also burnt out)
2020-02-09T14:12:56Z Nilby: It's no wonder. Espcially that unicode stuff is a bit overwhelming and boring.
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2020-02-09T14:14:24Z Shinmera: Well, making it fast is a nice challenge if you enjoy that kinda thing.
2020-02-09T14:15:01Z Nilby: I don't really, but it's necessary. I do like being able to type characters.
2020-02-09T14:15:08Z pfdietz: I enjoy someone else making it fast. :)
2020-02-09T14:15:20Z Shinmera: pfdietz: me too
2020-02-09T14:15:38Z Shinmera: UAX14 is a bit too daunting for me to figure out how to make it fast(er)
2020-02-09T14:15:47Z Shinmera: UAX9 is at least plenty fast already.
2020-02-09T14:18:30Z Nilby: Now I'm hopefull we'll have nice complete updated unicode support perhaps someday soon if we have all of these.
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2020-02-09T17:45:41Z sabrac: Nilby: Shinmera: If you want to beat on it, the current state of my normalization code is at https://github.com/sabracrolleton/saslprep
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2020-02-09T18:23:51Z Shinmera: sabrac: I'd like it very much if the UAX15 code could be factored out from the rest.
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2020-02-09T18:31:51Z pfdietz32: In writing tests for that, don't assume that a Common Lisp string constant has type (vector character).   Babel had some tests fail because of that.
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2020-02-09T18:36:28Z phoe: pfdietz32: do you mean the pathological case of (vector nil)?
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2020-02-09T18:38:25Z Bike: well, there's just character versus base-char.
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2020-02-09T18:39:24Z Bike: in clasp we had the "" reader macro produce base strings when possible and stuff broke. i think that's how it went
2020-02-09T18:40:06Z pjb: Only non-conforming stuff would broke on that, no?
2020-02-09T18:40:57Z pfdietz32: phoe:  no I meant base strings.
2020-02-09T18:41:14Z pjb: #\" is specified to read simple-strings, which are: A simple string is a specialized one-dimensional simple array whose elements are of type character or a subtype of type character.
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2020-02-09T18:41:27Z pjb: So a (array base-char (*)) is good.
2020-02-09T18:42:04Z pjb: Note that people may be confused by: "When used as a type specifier for object creation, simple-string means (simple-array character (size))."
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2020-02-09T18:42:19Z pjb: But this is not the case when reading a literal string.
2020-02-09T18:42:21Z pfdietz32: Babel had some tests that copied string constants, then assigned weird non-base characters into the copies.  This breaks when the lisp reads those as base-strings.
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2020-02-09T18:44:12Z pfdietz32: Unlike (vector nil), this is actually a useful thing for the lisp to do.
2020-02-09T18:44:12Z pjb: abcl, ccl, and clisp give wrong results for (type-of (map (quote string) (quote identity) (coerce "base-string" (quote (array base-char (*)))))) -> (SIMPLE-BASE-STRING 11) ecl and sbcl return (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (11)).
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2020-02-09T18:45:05Z pfdietz32: I don't suppose base-char and character are the same in any of those.
2020-02-09T18:46:52Z pjb: in abcl, ccl, and clisp, they are the same. In ecl and sbcl they are not.
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2020-02-09T18:47:28Z pjb: Ok, so perhaps the result of type-of is conforming, but it would be preferable to return a string type, rather than a base-string type in that case…
2020-02-09T18:47:36Z pjb: (IMO).
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2020-02-09T18:47:54Z pjb: Well, it's like (type-of 42) -> (fixnum 42 42)…
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2020-02-09T20:11:52Z sabrac: Breaking out normalization from Stringprep makes sense. Interesting on the base-string stuff.
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2020-02-09T20:32:00Z jackdaniel: pfdietz32: in ecl if you build without unicode support they are the same
2020-02-09T20:32:06Z jackdaniel: otherwise they are not
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2020-02-09T21:04:21Z Shinmera: sabrac: If you want it to be in line with the rest I did, just call it UAX-15 :)
2020-02-09T21:07:19Z sabrac: ok
2020-02-09T21:09:18Z Shinmera: or, rather, uax-15, since repo names are case-sensitive
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2020-02-09T21:11:05Z Nilby: Too bad what I've been doing is explicitly not in UAX-11.
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2020-02-10T04:02:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-10T04:41:36Z no-defun-allowed: Are there any least-recently-used cache implementations in Common Lisp?
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2020-02-10T05:06:04Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Such a cache is usually part of the paging module of an operating system.  Is that the context you are thinking of?
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2020-02-10T05:07:30Z no-defun-allowed: Not currently; I am thinking about using one to cache some requests that would go to a database in a separate process.
2020-02-10T05:07:34Z no-defun-allowed: Also, good morning beach.
2020-02-10T05:07:57Z no-defun-allowed: (would → would usually)
2020-02-10T05:09:04Z beach: In that case, I would think you could just use a priority queue.
2020-02-10T05:09:24Z beach: There ought to be several implementations of priority queues around.
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2020-02-10T05:11:55Z no-defun-allowed: Er, not to manage the requests that go to the database, but to cache the results of recent requests, sorry.
2020-02-10T05:12:45Z beach: Same thing.  Use a fixed-size priority queue in the form of a heap.
2020-02-10T05:12:53Z beach: "heap" as in the data structure.
2020-02-10T05:13:23Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
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2020-02-10T05:23:22Z White_Flame: or hashtable into a dually-linked list cells for both quick lookup and quick lookup of the head/tail
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2020-02-10T05:24:02Z White_Flame: erm, hash table of key -> struct of next,prev,key,val
2020-02-10T05:25:48Z White_Flame: partial implementation for reference: https://github.com/white-flame/clyc/blob/master/larkc-cycl/cache.lisp
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2020-02-10T06:56:54Z LdBeth: what can I do if I want to scrap a dynamic web page
2020-02-10T06:57:25Z LdBeth: like get the first 10 urls from a google search
2020-02-10T06:57:26Z White_Flame: rm -rf
2020-02-10T06:58:29Z White_Flame: but seriously, there are macro engines for web browsers that execute javascript after pages are loaded, as well as control the page load itself, and have access to the filesystem.  It's been years since I've used such a thing though
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2020-02-10T06:59:43Z moon-child: LdBeth: for general webscraping, try selenium
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2020-02-10T07:00:08Z White_Flame: if you want it straight from lisp, maybe you can link to one of the HTML engines and have it crunch the JS effects for you in a real web context
2020-02-10T07:00:19Z moon-child: LdBeth: for google specifically, maybe take a look at what googler is doing https://github.com/jarun/googler
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2020-02-10T07:03:00Z LdBeth: thank you, I'll look into googler
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2020-02-10T07:04:08Z White_Flame: I believe there's also a #lispweb channel
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2020-02-10T10:01:04Z Harag: Am I wrong in thinking simple-condition-format-control should work with a simple condition of undefined function? SBCL is saying "There is no slot named SB-KERNEL:FORMAT-CONTROL" but if I look at the condition in a break FORMAT-CONTROL: "~S" ?
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2020-02-10T10:02:47Z no-defun-allowed: I don't think you can expect that to work.
2020-02-10T10:02:52Z no-defun-allowed: clhs cell-error
2020-02-10T10:02:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_cell_e.htm
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2020-02-10T10:05:09Z pjb: Harag: perhaps the slot is named SB-IMPL:FORMAT-CONTROL or CL-USER::FORMAT-CONTROL.
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2020-02-10T10:05:29Z pjb: Harag: symbol names are not uniques!
2020-02-10T10:06:25Z Harag: pjb: yeah but my point is that the error passed to the handler is a simple condition --- The object is a CONDITION of type SIMPLE-CONDITION. - FORMAT-CONTROL: "~S" - FORMAT-ARGUMENTS: (#<UNDEFINED-FUNCTION JOB-TITLES {10331A9403}>)
2020-02-10T10:06:56Z Harag: and simple-condition-format-control should know what to look for on its own?
2020-02-10T10:07:10Z Nilby: I always have to: (find-slot-name 'simple-condition 'format-control)
2020-02-10T10:07:12Z pjb: You are debugging sbcl!
2020-02-10T10:07:26Z Harag: simple-condition-format-control works for other simple-conditions
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2020-02-10T10:11:24Z Nilby: Also it's implementation dependant, e.g. on lispworks is called 'format-string.
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2020-02-10T10:13:33Z pjb: Harag: try: (mapcar 'c2mop:slot-definition-name (c2mop:class-direct-slots (class-of (make-condition 'simple-condition)))) and compare with whatever other function condition you're thinking about.
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2020-02-10T10:26:26Z Nilby: It's one of those things you might think you need, but you probably don't. But it's also secretly there in a way one probably shouldn't use as UIOP/UTILITY::+SIMPLE-CONDITION-FORMAT-CONTROL-SLOT+.
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2020-02-10T10:35:09Z jmercouris: good morning everyone
2020-02-10T10:35:58Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
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2020-02-10T10:45:41Z Josh_2: Mornin
2020-02-10T10:46:14Z beach: Hello Josh_2.
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2020-02-10T11:18:41Z phoe: heyyyy
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2020-02-10T11:53:14Z sabrac: Shinmera: Nilby: Odin-: Normalization code broken out at https://github.com/sabracrolleton/uax-15
2020-02-10T11:53:47Z sabrac: Feel free to bang on it. Passes all tests in sbcl, ccl and ecl. As mentioned yesterday, still substantial failures under abcl and allegro
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2020-02-10T12:19:27Z Shinmera: great! thanks a lot
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2020-02-10T12:24:02Z Nilby: Yeah, thanks sabrac! I'm gonna give it a try trash heap^W^Wfilesystem searching.
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2020-02-10T12:35:16Z kmeow: lol
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2020-02-10T12:38:59Z jmercouris: how to alphabetically sort :depends-on in def system in emacs?
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2020-02-10T12:39:48Z jmercouris: M-x sort-lines
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2020-02-10T12:48:56Z d4ryus: jmercouris: hi, some time ago you had problems with running gtk with sbcl on mac, i remember now where i read about main-thread problems on mac os: https://github.com/vydd/sketch#Requirements
2020-02-10T12:50:40Z jmercouris: d4ryus: have made SBCL work with it on macOS :-)
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2020-02-10T12:51:11Z d4ryus: jmercouris: ah, even better :)
2020-02-10T12:51:14Z jmercouris: d4ryus: cl-cffi-gtk within-main-loop macro was running on the GTK "thread"
2020-02-10T12:51:29Z jmercouris: however if you manually invoke gtk-main from the cl-cffi-gtk package you can control on which thread things happen
2020-02-10T12:51:40Z jmercouris: you can then force al cl-cffi-gtk operations to happen on the main SBCL thread
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2020-02-10T12:51:45Z jmercouris: and then rendering happens correctly
2020-02-10T12:52:09Z jmercouris: I don't even know where to document this knowledge though, I would like for it not to be lost
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2020-02-10T12:53:35Z jmercouris: the advice on the sketch page is sound though, use CCL
2020-02-10T12:53:43Z jmercouris: my favorite implementation on macOS
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2020-02-10T12:56:28Z pfdietz: CCL, for when you want your backtraces to be Really Big.
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2020-02-10T13:00:10Z Nilby: Sadly, non-Lisp UIs seem to force separate OS processes per "application".
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2020-02-10T13:06:56Z montaropdf: jmercouris: You could documentat this in the wiki of your github project if it is on github. At least to begin with.
2020-02-10T13:07:09Z montaropdf: s/documentat/document/
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2020-02-10T13:27:51Z jmercouris: montaropdf: done: https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/issues/72
2020-02-10T13:28:00Z jmercouris: not sure if I should put it on Ferada's repository as well..
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2020-02-10T13:44:41Z montaropdf: I don't know, Apple is quite alien to me, in addition to GTK, so can't provide an informed decision about it.
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2020-02-10T16:39:34Z developernotes: Hi, not sure what the rules are for sharing links like this, but wanted to get feedback about doing a state of common lisp survey for 2020: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/f0jrnv/state_of_common_lisp/
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2020-02-10T16:48:41Z beach: Sharing links is fine as long as you give a short summary of what it refers to, just like you did.
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2020-02-10T16:51:23Z beach: developernotes: I am not sure what the format is of this description of the state.  Is it just a random selection of remarks from individuals?
2020-02-10T16:52:47Z PuercoPope: beach: yes, the previous one is from 2015: https://borretti.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015
2020-02-10T16:53:22Z beach: Hmm.  So how is such a random selection supposed to be any sort of indication of the state of anything really?
2020-02-10T16:53:23Z developernotes: beach: sorry, that isn't the survey itself, I just wanted to make people aware of it in case there were any questions they'd like to see on it.
2020-02-10T16:53:32Z beach: Ah, OK.
2020-02-10T16:53:48Z developernotes: Sorry for the misunderstanding.
2020-02-10T16:53:55Z beach: I also don't see any survey.
2020-02-10T16:54:17Z PuercoPope: It is common in other language communities to give a yearly report of the communities recommended libraries. But Lisp is more like an archipelago instead of a single community so the opinions will vary significantly
2020-02-10T16:54:20Z developernotes: beach: I'm in the process of preparing one.
2020-02-10T16:54:48Z beach: Nor any request like the one you just made, i.e. what questions they would like to see.
2020-02-10T16:54:56Z beach: Oh, well, I guess reddit is not for me.
2020-02-10T16:55:00Z developernotes: Agreed, I think this will be an interesting way to gather a large number of opinions.
2020-02-10T16:55:30Z beach: PuercoPope: I see.  Thanks.
2020-02-10T16:55:58Z beach: developernotes: Well, good luck then.
2020-02-10T16:56:01Z developernotes: beach: my initial thoughts were to base it off the Haskell survey: https://taylor.fausak.me/2019/11/16/haskell-survey-results/
2020-02-10T16:56:18Z beach: OK.
2020-02-10T16:57:30Z developernotes: I will post a link when the survey is finalized and find a way for publish the results for all to review.
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2020-02-10T19:50:31Z Xach: I bought the proceedings of the 1994 acm conference on lisp and functional programming, and a pair of articles describes Talk, an ISLisp-derived lisp made for painless C++ interaction. but i have found it hard hard to search for "talk" "C++" "islisp". All I can find is the ACM's archive of the papers in the proceedings.
2020-02-10T19:51:06Z Xach: i'm interested in it because perhaps it has useful ideas for clasp.
2020-02-10T19:52:57Z alandipert: Xach i'm highly interested in that, as it relates generally to interaction with a foreign platform/language
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2020-02-10T19:53:17Z Bike: let's see, https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/182590.156777 ?
2020-02-10T19:54:30Z Xach: Bike: that's right.
2020-02-10T19:55:28Z Xach: a month ago i bought a bunch of books on abebooks that were all under $10 and forgot about many of them until they started arriving.
2020-02-10T19:55:41Z Xach: today's surprise was the 1994 acm proceedings
2020-02-10T19:56:45Z Bike: that is an excellent procedure
2020-02-10T19:57:23Z Xach: christian queinnec has a paper on distributed, concurrent computing that refers to the ubiquity of the internet
2020-02-10T19:57:29Z Xach: the 1994 internet, even
2020-02-10T19:57:43Z Bike: none of the authors seem to have papers after 1994. seniak has a startup and some mentions in unrelated papers
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2020-02-10T20:04:30Z Bike: this was part of a commercial product, it says. source code might be forgotten.
2020-02-10T20:04:40Z Bike: also this paper doesn't mention how it's actually implemented at all.
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2020-02-10T20:06:10Z Bike: i found a google groups post that refers to a gz of the free version of ILOG Talk, but it seems pretty down. ftp, baby
2020-02-10T20:06:25Z Bike: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/gzqYxwWQqeU
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2020-02-10T20:36:45Z alandipert: googling the file name yielded http://ftp.vim.org/pub/ibiblio/devel/lang/lisp/ilog-talk-3.32.bin.x86.tar.gz
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2020-02-10T20:43:08Z Bike: interesting, but i don't think this has all sources
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2020-02-10T20:51:11Z Bike: stuff in here for K&R C. eesh.
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2020-02-10T21:05:04Z Nilby: I think I have a copy of it.
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2020-02-10T21:13:18Z pfdietz32: Google Scholar has led me down rabbit holes.   I tried to get a copy of a document from UC Berkeley that apparently exists only in their stacks, and is not available for interlibrary loan.   I guess I could ask them to scan a copy for me.
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2020-02-10T21:17:45Z Bike: librarians are pretty nice about those things in my experience
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2020-02-10T22:05:06Z kmeow: pfdietz32: What about?
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2020-02-11T00:43:57Z Oladon: I'm trying to get Hunchentoot working with server-sent events (text/event-stream). It seems like the socket is getting closed when I run send-headers (L6); the browser tries to reconnect a few seconds later, but never receives any events. https://pastebin.com/MvqsUSgE I suspect I'm doing something silly... anyone see what I'm doing wrong, or have any ideas?
2020-02-11T00:45:16Z Oladon: (Oddly enough, the code never reaches line 14... but no errors are thrown either)
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2020-02-11T00:46:28Z _death: maybe you want write-sequence, since you're writing octets
2020-02-11T00:46:47Z _death: also, you may need to flush the stream
2020-02-11T00:47:07Z Oladon: Hmm
2020-02-11T00:47:19Z pjb: Oladon: indeed, you have a bug line 14.
2020-02-11T00:47:30Z Oladon: _death: It _is_ a "chunked-io-stream"...
2020-02-11T00:47:32Z Oladon: pjb: I does?
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2020-02-11T00:47:52Z pjb: The message saying that the event is sent is wrong.  The event has been formatted and written into some buffer.  It has not been sent.
2020-02-11T00:47:57Z Oladon: Hehe
2020-02-11T00:48:06Z pjb: You must flush the buffers.
2020-02-11T00:48:20Z pjb: or not expect it to have been sent.
2020-02-11T00:48:33Z Oladon: Touché, my friend, touché.
2020-02-11T00:48:50Z Oladon: How come it's closing the socket though? Shouldn't it just leave it open indefinitely?
2020-02-11T00:48:57Z Oladon: Or at least longer than ~2 seconds?
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2020-02-11T00:53:24Z pjb: Well, there may indeed be even more complications, if it's a gray stream managed by the HTTP protocol, such as a chunked-io-stream.
2020-02-11T00:53:34Z Oladon: It is indeed a chunked-io-stream.
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2020-02-11T00:54:05Z Oladon: I've tried looking up particulars of those, but haven't gotten very far :(
2020-02-11T00:54:13Z pjb: For example, the client may be closing the socket, before the server has flushed it.
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2020-02-11T00:54:39Z Oladon: Hrm. What's the best way to figure out who's closing it?
2020-02-11T00:54:53Z Oladon: In theory the client should leave it open when it receives text/event-stream as the content-type...
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2020-02-11T00:56:09Z _death: wireshark?
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2020-02-11T01:00:57Z Oladon: Hmm, I think the server is the one killing it... curl -N should stay connected otherwise?
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2020-02-11T01:17:01Z _death: hmmm.. chunga has a very bad security issue
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2020-02-11T01:19:17Z _death: consider a request like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1671#1671
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2020-02-11T04:06:23Z Oladon: _death: Hmm... I'm not sure I follow.
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2020-02-11T04:35:18Z Oladon: So I've made some progress, thanks to you guys' earlier assistance: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1672#1672 -- it's now correctly sending the events, but it's still closing the socket when the function finishes. And I can't seem to figure out why :(
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2020-02-11T04:47:08Z Oladon: loke`: Any chance you're around? Seems that you managed to do something with Hunchentoot's detach-socket way back in 2014...
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2020-02-11T05:18:06Z alandipert: has anyone built a a single-page web application with JSCL, or is anyone otherwise aware of one?
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2020-02-11T05:24:14Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-11T05:27:41Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
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2020-02-11T05:57:43Z ebrasca: Good morning!
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2020-02-11T05:58:51Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-02-11T06:02:05Z no-defun-allowed notes that matrix-irc bridge appears to drop all but one "Good morning everyone!" now. :<
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2020-02-11T07:29:13Z Josh_2: Is there a way to find out what conditions a function can signal?
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2020-02-11T07:31:29Z lieven: Josh_2: no.
2020-02-11T07:32:21Z Josh_2: rip
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2020-02-11T07:32:37Z Josh_2: I suppose I can read the source code
2020-02-11T07:32:37Z no-defun-allowed: Given you can pass conditions around like any other value and signal them, no.
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2020-02-11T07:40:27Z lieven: hmmm restarts are also objects like any other, albeit with dynamic extent. there's some scope for very obfuscated code there.
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2020-02-11T08:44:54Z Josh_2: When I choose to invoke a restart in the repl, how do I pass a value?
2020-02-11T08:49:04Z montaropdf: In the repl, you can pass a value while calling the function, see the CLHS
2020-02-11T08:49:13Z montaropdf: ,clhs invoke-restart
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2020-02-11T08:49:22Z montaropdf: ,invoke-restart
2020-02-11T08:49:57Z no-defun-allowed: clhs invoke-restart
2020-02-11T08:49:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_invo_1.htm
2020-02-11T08:50:38Z montaropdf: thanks no-defun-allowed
2020-02-11T08:51:06Z Josh_2: montaropdf: got it
2020-02-11T08:51:24Z Josh_2: didn't realize I had to use invoke-restart in the repl
2020-02-11T08:51:41Z montaropdf: Josh_2: just discover it with your question ;)
2020-02-11T08:51:54Z montaropdf: s/just/I just/
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2020-02-11T08:52:45Z Josh_2: Noice :)
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2020-02-11T09:16:37Z pjb: Josh_2: the exact condition signaled by most CL functions is not specified.  Since it's not specified how they're implemented, it's not even know if/what condition could be signaled in addition to those specified.  It's almost never documented by library functions.  So reading the source will not be that useful.
2020-02-11T09:17:12Z pjb: Josh_2: furthermore, some implementations are written in C or other languages, so it's not even easy to consider analysing the CL sources.
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2020-02-11T09:18:49Z pjb: Josh_2: for example, any function that will ultimately allocate memory, could signal a out-of-memory condition.  Any function that uses arithmetic operators could signal a divide-by-zero or other arithmetic-error condition.
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2020-02-11T09:29:25Z Josh_2: hmmm
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2020-02-11T09:45:23Z pjb: Josh_2: You could write an implementation that would compute the full type of functions including the set of condition it may signal.
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2020-02-11T10:06:54Z Gnuxie[m]: That would be cool, especially for an editor using CL
2020-02-11T10:08:42Z lieven: in an implementation where conditions are regular objects and that has MOP, you can define new conditions at run time
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2020-02-11T10:46:21Z macauris: sup
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2020-02-11T10:47:27Z macauris: what's the simplest cl package for moving between alists and xml
2020-02-11T10:48:13Z beach: Hello macauris.
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2020-02-11T11:13:58Z pjb: macauris: sxml
2020-02-11T11:14:36Z pjb: I mean, xmls
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2020-02-11T11:16:56Z pjb: (ql:quickload "xmls") (xmls:toxml (xmls:NODELIST->NODE '(book ()  (title () "foo") (author () "bart")))) #| --> "<book><title>foo</title><author>bart</author></book>" |#
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2020-02-11T12:22:04Z z147: I'm learning about CL web frameworks / app. env. Planning to  serve via nginx / fastcgi. Currently experimenting with Clack. Going through the list at Cliki https://cliki.net/web%20framework. Would appreciate tips about CL web frameworks under production use / development.
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2020-02-11T12:23:22Z Josh_2: z147: https://github.com/fukamachi/ningle ?
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2020-02-11T12:24:10Z z147: Josh_2, are you using it?
2020-02-11T12:25:13Z Josh_2: then there is Smackjack for AJAX, parenscript to generate JS (If you want), postmodern for db access
2020-02-11T12:25:33Z Josh_2: currently I'm not using ningle, I have a website that is built directly on hunchentoot, but I have an idea for a website that I will most likely use ningle to build
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2020-02-11T12:25:56Z Josh_2: there is also radiance https://github.com/Shirakumo/radiance
2020-02-11T12:26:36Z Josh_2: There is cl-who to generate html as well, I have used that and It's very good
2020-02-11T12:27:36Z z147: I'm going through the basics with clack at the moment. Areas of application will be general website/ CMS. Also need to learn more as far as input sanitation and security. So I was thinking the first step would be to seek feedback on what frameworks if any are being used in production
2020-02-11T12:32:35Z z147: I was thinking of looking at Djula as well, it appears not to be actively maintained
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2020-02-11T13:11:53Z Shinmera: z147: I'm the author of Radiance, so I'm using that.
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2020-02-11T13:15:59Z z147: Shinmera, thank You, i'll add it to my list for review
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2020-02-11T14:06:43Z jmercouris: how to upgrade ASDF? it is giving me problems in CCL
2020-02-11T14:06:53Z jmercouris: I've placed it in a place that is locatable by ASDF
2020-02-11T14:07:09Z jmercouris: if put (require "asdf") at the top of my CCL Init, it refuses to load
2020-02-11T14:07:23Z Xach: jmercouris: when i used to do that, i compiled and loaded asdf.lisp early
2020-02-11T14:07:33Z Xach: like, before loading anything else.
2020-02-11T14:07:34Z jmercouris: Error: Module asdf was not provided by any function on *MODULE-PROVIDER-FUNCTIONS*.
2020-02-11T14:07:50Z jmercouris: it is literally at the top of my CCL Init file, nothing else before
2020-02-11T14:08:01Z jmercouris: and then I have the automatically added #-quicklisp code below it
2020-02-11T14:08:11Z Xach: Oh, you changed to (load (compile-file "asdf.lisp")) at the start?
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2020-02-11T14:08:31Z jmercouris: Oh require does not compile it!
2020-02-11T14:08:33Z jmercouris: Ah ha!
2020-02-11T14:08:39Z jmercouris: Let me give that a try then
2020-02-11T14:08:41Z Xach: require does not do anything firmly specified.
2020-02-11T14:08:49Z Xach: (unless you use the two-argument form)
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2020-02-11T14:09:00Z jmercouris: so if I compile and load
2020-02-11T14:09:01Z jmercouris: I need not require?
2020-02-11T14:09:07Z Bike: putting asdf in an asdf-loadable location won't help if asdf has not already been loaded, surely
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2020-02-11T14:09:26Z jmercouris: well, ASDF *has* been loaded, just an older version of it
2020-02-11T14:09:30Z Xach: require is a way to load stuff but the exact mechanism varies from cl to cl. so don't use require.
2020-02-11T14:09:33Z jmercouris: is that not true?
2020-02-11T14:09:55Z Xach: if you want to load something with asdf, use asdf:load-system
2020-02-11T14:10:18Z Xach: i use (load (compile-file ...)) because asdf is a single file and it's simple.
2020-02-11T14:10:19Z jmercouris: I guess the directions on the ASDF documentation are bad then
2020-02-11T14:10:20Z jmercouris: they say to use require
2020-02-11T14:10:34Z jmercouris: does the makefile in ASDF just cat all the files together?
2020-02-11T14:10:48Z Xach: Oh, it has documentation for how to load a new asdf over an old one and those instructions say to use "require"?
2020-02-11T14:10:54Z jmercouris: they do
2020-02-11T14:10:54Z Xach: If so, that's bad.
2020-02-11T14:11:03Z Xach: Where is the documentation?
2020-02-11T14:11:06Z jmercouris: I would send the link, but my internet is very poor here
2020-02-11T14:11:13Z jmercouris: I just looked at the official manual
2020-02-11T14:11:23Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Loading-ASDF i think this is what jmercouris is referring to
2020-02-11T14:11:23Z jmercouris: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Upgrading-ASDF
2020-02-11T14:11:25Z jmercouris: I think that is it
2020-02-11T14:11:31Z Bike: welp
2020-02-11T14:12:27Z jmercouris: maybe I will "Replace your implementations ASDF"
2020-02-11T14:12:31Z jmercouris: let me try loading this one though first
2020-02-11T14:12:38Z jmercouris: I have now at the top of my ccl-init the following: (load (compile-file "/Users/jmercouris/Source/Lisp/asdf/build/asdf.lisp"))
2020-02-11T14:13:25Z jmercouris: hey wow! that works
2020-02-11T14:13:33Z jmercouris: thanks Bike Xach
2020-02-11T14:14:40Z jmercouris: probably those directions should be upgraded or so
2020-02-11T14:15:11Z Nilby: Except it might break with the 'compile-file' if you try too many lisp different lisp versions or different architectures.
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2020-02-11T14:15:51Z jmercouris: why would it?
2020-02-11T14:15:55Z jmercouris: they all use a separate cache
2020-02-11T14:16:00Z jmercouris: ~/.config/cache/xyzz
2020-02-11T14:16:16Z Nilby: Not with load only with load-system
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2020-02-11T14:16:58Z jmercouris: oh, I see
2020-02-11T14:17:19Z Nilby: It's yet another bootstrapping thing
2020-02-11T14:18:58Z Nilby: It'll work almost all the time, except if you're me.
2020-02-11T14:19:15Z jmercouris: 1
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2020-02-11T14:56:21Z Xach: argh. dbd-oracle has an implicit dependency on cl-syntax, and one of its other dependencies must have dropped it, because despite no changes in two years dbd-oracle stopped building today.
2020-02-11T14:56:51Z jmercouris: that's frustrating
2020-02-11T14:56:58Z jmercouris: do we have a way to draw dependency graphs?
2020-02-11T14:57:08Z jmercouris: might you see easily what is now missing?
2020-02-11T14:57:17Z Xach: i can easily see that cl-syntax is missing!
2020-02-11T14:57:32Z Xach: there is some uncertainty about what upstream project changed
2020-02-11T14:57:39Z jmercouris: is it not enough to add it to the ASD file then?
2020-02-11T14:57:54Z jmercouris: I must say, dependencies are the worst
2020-02-11T14:57:58Z jmercouris: the best, and the worst
2020-02-11T14:58:15Z Xach: It's certainly enough to add it to the asd file.
2020-02-11T14:58:16Z jmercouris: simultaneously, the double edged sword that makes your project easily, but also brings it to its knees when the abstraction isn't quite good enough
2020-02-11T14:58:29Z Xach: The project being unmodified for two years makes me wonder if it will be changed promptly, but we'll see
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2020-02-11T15:00:47Z Nilby: I feel like every quicklisp release Xach performs a bit of a miracle for us.
2020-02-11T15:01:02Z Xach: this kind of problem most often happens with implicit reliance on things that slime loads, like sb-posix and stuff.
2020-02-11T15:01:29Z Xach: those at least are easy to find right away, before a project is accepted. an accepted, unchanging project that breaks later is more awkward.
2020-02-11T15:02:06Z Nilby: It's tricky for most people to build in a clean environment.
2020-02-11T15:03:10Z Xach: yes
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2020-02-11T15:05:14Z Nilby: I have to test things in VM to be sure.
2020-02-11T15:07:44Z Xach: hmm
2020-02-11T15:08:07Z pfdietz: GrammaTech (where I work) is hiring CL people.
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2020-02-11T15:11:14Z Josh_2: oh really
2020-02-11T15:11:15Z scymtym: pfdietz: is there an announcement, website or document of some sort?
2020-02-11T15:11:53Z sabrac: current implementation testing grumble. clisp cannot find a test package but sbcl, ccl, ecl, allegro, abcl and cmucl can. different asdf? Something else I should look for?
2020-02-11T15:12:07Z Xach: clisp doesn't come with asdf
2020-02-11T15:12:14Z Xach: make sure you are using a new asdf and not, say, the one quicklisp gives you
2020-02-11T15:12:33Z Xach: grammatech must be overwhelmed with all the bugs i file when systems stop building
2020-02-11T15:13:15Z Josh_2: pfdietz: would they hire a new grad who is paid in tea, crumpets and scones xD
2020-02-11T15:13:43Z pfdietz: Xach: :)
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2020-02-11T15:25:21Z pfdietz: scymtym: https://www.grammatech.com/careers  (includes non-CL positions as well)
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2020-02-11T15:34:32Z Josh_2: Shame they have no internships
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2020-02-11T15:38:27Z scymtym: pfdietz: thanks
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2020-02-11T17:13:30Z phoe: > Remote, USA Only
2020-02-11T17:13:47Z phoe emits disappointment
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2020-02-11T17:15:50Z Xach: phoe: bah, you get to have the ELS every year
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2020-02-11T17:17:20Z dra: Hi.
2020-02-11T17:17:30Z beach: Hello dra.
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2020-02-11T17:30:33Z didi: Could I rewrite https://paste.debian.net/hidden/d537705f so a compiler could compile (take l) and (take l k) to different functions?
2020-02-11T17:31:54Z beach: Sure, write a compiler macro for TAKE.
2020-02-11T17:32:24Z didi: beach: Thanks.
2020-02-11T17:32:25Z Xach: i have a hard time distinguishing l from 1
2020-02-11T17:32:37Z Xach: i like "list" as a name for that reason
2020-02-11T17:32:44Z didi: Xach: Sorry. One sec.
2020-02-11T17:33:28Z beach: didi: It looks to me like the local function TAKE is just COPY-LIST.
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2020-02-11T17:34:05Z didi: Xach: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/676a257c
2020-02-11T17:34:08Z didi: beach: Indeed.
2020-02-11T17:34:12Z beach: didi: And TAKE-K is just SUBSEQ.
2020-02-11T17:34:36Z didi: beach: Very similar, yes.
2020-02-11T17:35:25Z beach: But, yes, you can write a compiler macro that checks how many arguments the form has, and substitute different function-calling forms in each case.
2020-02-11T17:35:37Z didi: beach: Thank you.
2020-02-11T17:35:46Z beach: Anytime.
2020-02-11T17:37:53Z Bike: since subseq has to copy, they're both basically (subseq 0 k) but restricted to lists
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2020-02-11T17:42:48Z Josh_2: Is there an built in function to compare simple-array character and simple-base-string?
2020-02-11T17:43:09Z Josh_2: Or convert one to the other would do
2020-02-11T17:43:17Z Bike: you can convert with coerce.
2020-02-11T17:43:33Z Bike: EQUALP will compare elementwise, but also ignores case.
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2020-02-11T17:46:26Z Bike: er, wait, if you mean a simple-array actually with upgraded array element type character, you can just use EQUAL
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2020-02-11T21:55:27Z kpoeck: regarding the claim from Xach that clisp doen't come with asdf
2020-02-11T21:55:55Z kpoeck: Please check https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp/-/tree/master/modules/asdf
2020-02-11T21:56:04Z kpoeck: clisp come with asdf
2020-02-11T21:56:57Z kpoeck: version ASDF 3.2.0
2020-02-11T21:58:37Z Xach: kpoeck: oh, has there been a new clisp release?
2020-02-11T21:58:47Z Xach: if so, that is great news
2020-02-11T21:59:12Z kpoeck: the last release was when I had blond hair :-)
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2020-02-11T21:59:22Z kpoeck: No, but the git version has asdf
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2020-02-11T22:00:14Z Xach: Ok. When I talk about clisp properties, I am referring to the last released version
2020-02-11T22:00:51Z Xach: I look forward to a new release someday
2020-02-11T22:01:42Z kpoeck: asdf was included in clisp 9 years ago, now I just need to remember when the last release was done
2020-02-11T22:01:59Z Xach: 9.01 years ago or more
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2020-02-11T22:04:14Z kpoeck: more than 9 years ago, so my correction was wrong, sorry about that
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2020-02-11T22:05:46Z Xach: it is no problem, i am glad to learn that the git version has asdf
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2020-02-11T22:09:42Z kpoeck: They were so close to a new release in 2018 - there was even a release candidate - but than it was not finished
2020-02-11T22:10:22Z _death: it's interesting that for example on archlinux the current package is for a 2018-02-18 version.. the package source indicates that they use the hg repository, which has been made obsolete, so if updated, it could use a more recent version
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2020-02-11T22:13:43Z _death: (and it could also be updated to pass some --with-module flags to configure)
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2020-02-11T22:33:43Z jmercouris: anyone know how to set the size of a child widget in cl-cffi-gtk?
2020-02-11T22:34:11Z jmercouris: basically, I'm looking for the cl-cffi-gtk equivalent of gtk_widget_set_size_request
2020-02-11T22:35:05Z jmercouris: had to look in the source.. inconsistently named lol
2020-02-11T22:35:34Z jmercouris: (defgeneric (setf gtk-widget-size-request) (size widget) line 7093 of gtk.widget.lisp
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2020-02-12T04:09:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-02-12T04:10:36Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
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2020-02-12T07:13:24Z DaisyNewTownGirl: can you guys help me to debug it ? https://bit.ly/2SB5gvu
2020-02-12T07:16:40Z no-defun-allowed: What does the Railway Recruitment Board of Mumbai have to do with Common Lisp?
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2020-02-12T07:19:19Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2020-02-12T07:19:35Z jackdaniel: uh, tool ate
2020-02-12T07:19:57Z jackdaniel: tool ate my debugger*, certainly I didn't want to say "too late"
2020-02-12T07:20:06Z jackdaniel has set mode -o jackdaniel
2020-02-12T07:20:12Z no-defun-allowed: Which tool did you eat?^W^W^W^W^WBummer.
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2020-02-12T07:44:28Z remexre: Does anyone know of a Varlink implementation for CL?
2020-02-12T07:44:43Z remexre: googling didn't find anything, sadly
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2020-02-12T07:46:21Z jackdaniel never heard of such implementation despite doing a research for a graph showing CL implementations a few years ago
2020-02-12T07:47:03Z remexre: er, sorry, an implementation of the varlink protocol* for CL
2020-02-12T07:47:05Z beach: jackdaniel: I think you misunderstood the question.  I did too initially.
2020-02-12T07:47:11Z remexre: not a CL implementation named varlink
2020-02-12T07:47:15Z jackdaniel: ah!
2020-02-12T07:47:33Z jackdaniel: well, answer is the same except of the part starting with "despite" :)
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2020-02-12T07:48:42Z remexre: eh, might write an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation tomorrow, if none exists :P
2020-02-12T07:49:37Z jackdaniel: I find it funny that I've made that mistake, I'm sure it would not be possible for me outside lisp community -- implementation is more tied to the compiler+runtime than to libraries in my mind
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2020-02-12T07:55:43Z remexre: Lisp is also one of the relatively few languages where "compiler" isn't a sufficient descriptor, and where multiple implementations exist; only non-Lispy non-compiled language I can think of that has no consensus on a "default implementation" is JS
2020-02-12T07:56:26Z remexre: non-exclusively-aot-compiled*, I should say
2020-02-12T07:58:34Z beach: There is no such thing as a "compiled language" or a "non-compiled language".  Whether a compiler is used is a characteristic of the implementation, not of the language.
2020-02-12T07:59:28Z remexre: sure, but very few people interpret C++, resp. AoT compile JS
2020-02-12T08:02:31Z remexre: I guess I could rephrase my point more precisely as "among languages I know of, it seems to me that either a language has a single community-standard implementation, or all of its implementations are AoT compilers, and are simply called 'the compiler' rather than 'the implementation' as a result"
2020-02-12T08:03:05Z remexre: "or are either Lisp-family (or Forth-family, now that I think of it)"
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2020-02-12T08:06:02Z remexre: er, or are JS
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2020-02-12T09:33:03Z p_l: remexre: varlink is very, very new, and past track record suggests that implementing it from description will be futile
2020-02-12T09:33:50Z p_l: remexre: there's no "standard" implementation for C, C++, Java, Ada, Fortran, Pascals, pretty much all "older" languages
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2020-02-12T09:38:09Z White_Flame: does perl have a "standard" implementation?  it's older than java
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2020-02-12T09:39:02Z White_Flame: another thing about older languages is that hardware was wildly varying.  nowadays it's become possible to have a singular environment that generally works the same cross-platform
2020-02-12T09:40:51Z p_l: White_Flame: Perl afaik is implementation-defined like Python and doesn't have other spec
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2020-02-12T09:43:47Z jackdaniel: perl6 unlike earlier version has started from the specification, that said it is very different language
2020-02-12T09:47:21Z White_Flame: it's also not called perl6 anymore
2020-02-12T09:47:46Z White_Flame: "raku" now instead
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2020-02-12T10:01:00Z Nilby: Based on the amount of perl I've converted to CL, without understanding perl, I reason that perl implementation doesn't understand perl.
2020-02-12T10:09:35Z pjb: At its core, varlink is simply a JSON-based protocol that can be used to exchange messages over any connection-oriented transport.
2020-02-12T10:10:16Z pjb: https://varlink.org/#protocol
2020-02-12T10:10:29Z pjb: So it should be easy to implement in CL…
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2020-02-12T10:30:52Z p_l: pjb: the json part isn't hard
2020-02-12T10:31:00Z p_l: it's the messages in the layer up
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2020-02-12T10:35:01Z beach wonders whether we are going to get an extension of the deadline for ELS submissions. 
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2020-02-12T10:47:24Z seok: hello
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2020-02-12T10:50:29Z Nilby: Hi seok
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2020-02-12T11:29:01Z Odin-: Hmm.
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2020-02-12T11:36:42Z amerlyq: I only hope varlink won't become second CommonAPI-escue thing
2020-02-12T11:38:56Z jmercouris: beach: I read your paper about environments
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2020-02-12T11:39:20Z jmercouris: beach: interesting read, is your source implemented as such that it can easily be ported to different implementations?
2020-02-12T11:41:05Z amerlyq: jmercouris: you have picked my interest, share some link please
2020-02-12T11:43:02Z jmercouris: I believe it is piqued
2020-02-12T11:43:04Z jmercouris: let me try to find
2020-02-12T11:44:32Z jmercouris: I can only find the tex sources
2020-02-12T11:44:36Z jmercouris: I can't remember where I got the PDF
2020-02-12T11:45:13Z jmercouris: amerlyq: you can see them here: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/tree/master/Papers/Global-environments
2020-02-12T11:46:01Z amerlyq: yep, piqued; thanks!
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2020-02-12T11:48:02Z jmercouris: beach: I'm assuming it is portable since I take it this one of the things SICL brings to the table
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2020-02-12T12:55:39Z jmercouris: can someone please help explain some unexpected behavior, I have this simple file I am loading: http://dpaste.com/0FRTE2V
2020-02-12T12:55:53Z jmercouris: in the SLIME REPL I do: (trivial-main-thread:call-in-main-thread #'gtk-tutorial::start)
2020-02-12T12:56:02Z jmercouris: it works, and then freezes when I interact with the window
2020-02-12T12:56:11Z jmercouris: if I start SBCL by itself and load that file, it keeps working
2020-02-12T12:56:17Z jmercouris: does it matter in which thread I quickload something?
2020-02-12T12:56:40Z jmercouris: what could explain the difference in behavior?
2020-02-12T12:57:43Z jmercouris: I tried to change my .swank.lisp to: (setf swank:*communication-style* :fd-handler), but then it is impossible to quickload cl-cffi-gtk
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2020-02-12T13:00:03Z jmercouris: just for fun, I tried this: http://dpaste.com/06SWPYP
2020-02-12T13:00:08Z jmercouris: but it froze of course
2020-02-12T13:01:56Z Nilby: This is one of the reasons I don't use slime for this kind of thing, but maybe if you start gtk first, and then start swank and connect to it?
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2020-02-12T13:02:35Z jmercouris: Nilby: what do you mean? start SBCL in a terminal, quickload cl-cffi-gtkk, load swank, start a swank server, and then connect slime to it?
2020-02-12T13:02:40Z phoe: yes
2020-02-12T13:03:12Z jmercouris: I guess that is worth a try
2020-02-12T13:03:21Z jackdaniel: Nilby: do you have backdoor in your head? people peek into it to answer instead of you ,)
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2020-02-12T13:05:00Z Nilby: yup
2020-02-12T13:05:25Z Nilby: i'm totally transparent :)
2020-02-12T13:05:50Z jmercouris: that is a most peculiar combination of success
2020-02-12T13:05:57Z jmercouris: so now it does not freeze and *some* of the widgets redraw
2020-02-12T13:06:05Z jmercouris: that is because I'm not on the main thread
2020-02-12T13:06:10Z jmercouris: but nonetheless, strange
2020-02-12T13:06:18Z jackdaniel: M-x slime-connect nilby.org 4005
2020-02-12T13:06:59Z decent-username: If people are already talking about GTK. What's a good library to use for writing GTK-3 GUIs?
2020-02-12T13:07:07Z jmercouris: none, none of them are good
2020-02-12T13:07:12Z jackdaniel: decent-username: cffi!
2020-02-12T13:07:12Z decent-username: thought as much
2020-02-12T13:07:14Z jmercouris: but if you just, cl-cffi-gtk is the one I've had the most luck with
2020-02-12T13:08:30Z jackdaniel: but in all honesty, if I were to write GTK application, I'd do it in C
2020-02-12T13:09:04Z jackdaniel: (and provide some small bindings which are needed for my lisp app via callbacks or whatever)
2020-02-12T13:09:05Z decent-username: I wanted to revisit the Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson C book.
2020-02-12T13:09:30Z decent-username: I'll probably start using C again.
2020-02-12T13:09:38Z jmercouris: it depends on the scope of the program
2020-02-12T13:10:34Z decent-username: The issue I'm currently having with CL it's missing libraries. In order to write those libraries I need to really know C.
2020-02-12T13:11:03Z decent-username: The GTK discussion shows, that there's apparently no solid GTK library for CL.
2020-02-12T13:11:11Z jmercouris: OK, so to use SLIME AND get proper widget rendering I've appended: (swank:create-server :port 4006 :dont-close t) to the bottom of my file for convenience, I load it in a terminal, then slime-connect
2020-02-12T13:11:12Z jackdaniel: why do you need to know C to write Common Lisp libraries?
2020-02-12T13:11:37Z jmercouris: You don't need to know C to write Common Lisp libraries, not even ones that utilize CFFI
2020-02-12T13:11:40Z jmercouris: all you need is the API spec for that
2020-02-12T13:11:58Z decent-username: jackdaniel: Because one needs to understand what's going on under the hood, to write good libraries.
2020-02-12T13:12:04Z jmercouris: CFFI is hard to learn since I couldn't find a good tutorial, but technically speaking it is straightforward
2020-02-12T13:12:17Z jackdaniel: decent-username: do you mean that you want to write clones of C libraries? or that you want to write bindings?
2020-02-12T13:12:42Z jackdaniel: because if you write bindings, then you are not writing Common Lisp library but rather a wrapper over C library (meaningful difference)
2020-02-12T13:12:43Z decent-username: The end goal is to do the former.
2020-02-12T13:13:18Z jmercouris: all of this said, now that you know my solution, how can I do this in Emacs to avoid having to spawn a terminal and load SBCL and perform some operations
2020-02-12T13:13:22Z jackdaniel: hm, then I don't think that peeking how C library works will give you much advantage
2020-02-12T13:13:23Z jmercouris: I assume many of you have had to do something similar before
2020-02-12T13:13:38Z jackdaniel: "usual" common lisp library architecture is very different from C
2020-02-12T13:13:41Z Nilby: jmercouris: Your paste worked for me, running it outside of emacs in the main thread. But when I tried it in another thread I got sbcl to SIGABRT, which leads me to believe that it tries to create it's own threads from C libraries.
2020-02-12T13:13:44Z jackdaniel: * from C library
2020-02-12T13:14:04Z jmercouris: Nilby: yes, it does try to make its own threads, it tries to make a GTK main thread
2020-02-12T13:14:14Z jmercouris: Nilby: it is a consequence of cl-cffi-gtk
2020-02-12T13:14:26Z jackdaniel: hence "underhood workings" also will be very different -- unless you want to write C in Common Lisp
2020-02-12T13:14:41Z decent-username: jackdaniel: I for my part want to write a CL game engine as a learning project. But basically all tutorials for these kind of things are in C. I'm not sure if there's an official OpenGL API for CL.
2020-02-12T13:14:53Z jmercouris: decent-username: please join #lispgames
2020-02-12T13:15:24Z decent-username: jmercouris: I've already joined #lispgames like two years ago.
2020-02-12T13:15:41Z decent-username: But university forces me to always take long breaks.
2020-02-12T13:15:42Z jackdaniel: cl-opengl gives you bindings, but yes, shared objects which export the api exhibit C ABI
2020-02-12T13:16:11Z jmercouris: I think the real statement is this: a lot of the world runs on C or CFFI, in order to be effective you should know C
2020-02-12T13:16:27Z jmercouris: because you will want to leverage existing libraries to avoid having to write everything down to assembler
2020-02-12T13:16:29Z decent-username: jmercouris: Basically
2020-02-12T13:17:12Z jackdaniel: this statement is not very compelling, and the assembler remark is plain inadequate, why would you want to write everything down to assembly? doesn't CL implementations compile things to assembly?
2020-02-12T13:17:26Z decent-username: In 2 years there will be an awesome GTK library I wrote. *cough cough*
2020-02-12T13:17:28Z jmercouris: I think you know I was exaggerating to make a point
2020-02-12T13:17:38Z decent-username: or maybe another trashy one
2020-02-12T13:17:50Z jackdaniel: making a point with false premises is intellectually flawed
2020-02-12T13:17:54Z jmercouris: for example, I'm using CFFI for Next, because writing a web engine that meets modern web standards and performance would take me tens of thousands of man-hours
2020-02-12T13:18:27Z jmercouris: it is intellectually flawed, but this is a casual conversation, not an academic debate :-D
2020-02-12T13:18:42Z jackdaniel: I thought you've said that you need to know C
2020-02-12T13:19:05Z jmercouris: You don't *need* to know it, for sure, but it really helps a lot
2020-02-12T13:19:06Z jackdaniel: even in casual conversations you should aim at not being incorrect or dishonest
2020-02-12T13:19:30Z jmercouris: I was saying to write CFFI wrappers you don't really need to know C
2020-02-12T13:19:40Z jmercouris: and I also said to be effective you should probably know C too
2020-02-12T13:20:02Z decent-username: Does someone of you have a roadmap for someone who sees that there aren't any good GTK libaries for CL, and who wants to write a good one.
2020-02-12T13:20:26Z decent-username: Because I'm rather new to computer Science (3years).
2020-02-12T13:20:46Z jackdaniel: gtk wrapper you mean? qt is less messy and gtk breaks its api every year or two
2020-02-12T13:20:58Z jmercouris: Please reach out to Ferada on GitHub
2020-02-12T13:21:10Z decent-username: jackdaniel: But QT is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.
2020-02-12T13:21:19Z decent-username: It's a memory eating monster as well.
2020-02-12T13:21:31Z jmercouris: Qt is not slow, the implementation of the renderer on your port may be slow, and on every port, but Qt itself, no not slow ;-)
2020-02-12T13:21:38Z jackdaniel: you need to back up this statement with benchmarks, because its memory footprint is very small lately, and I don't remember it being slow
2020-02-12T13:21:51Z jmercouris: Run it on macOS, and you will see that it is slow
2020-02-12T13:21:55Z jmercouris: rendering specifically
2020-02-12T13:22:10Z jmercouris: I think it is using openGL or so, I can't remember
2020-02-12T13:22:26Z jmercouris: in any case, not using native cocoa frameworks, causes latency issues
2020-02-12T13:23:33Z decent-username: jackdaniel: The main reason I prefer GTK over QT, is that GTK feels more native to UNIX-like OSs. Themes are automatically inherited and other things like that.
2020-02-12T13:24:12Z decent-username: Using QT programs on a GTK based desktop environment is annoying.
2020-02-12T13:24:21Z jmercouris: This feels a little bit off-topic now, let's please not discuss the merits of Qt vs GTK
2020-02-12T13:24:28Z decent-username: alright
2020-02-12T13:25:10Z decent-username: I've learned that the current state of graphics toolkits is ass.
2020-02-12T13:25:22Z decent-username: ahahaha
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2020-02-12T13:42:24Z Nilby: jmecouris: Your little paste creates 10 threads on my system.
2020-02-12T13:43:55Z jmercouris: Nilby: that's hilarious :-)
2020-02-12T13:44:27Z jmercouris: so I ended up making a simple file, then I open up eshell sbcl --load my-loading-file.lisp which loads cl-cffi-gtk on the correct thread, then I slime connect, etc
2020-02-12T13:44:36Z jmercouris: I'm sure I could make an elisp function to do this, maybe I will in a little bit
2020-02-12T13:44:48Z Nilby: But it seems to work consistently not under slime. I think there's probably a way to get slime to run it in the main thread.
2020-02-12T13:45:00Z jmercouris: Nilby: there is probably a way
2020-02-12T13:45:01Z decent-username: jmercouris: I've just downloaded Next. I had it bookmarked from a year ago or so. I've wanted to change my setup to GNU GuixSD + StumpWM. I might also change my default browser while I'm at it.
2020-02-12T13:45:16Z jmercouris: decent-username: Nice! Enjoy :-)
2020-02-12T13:45:38Z jmercouris: Nilby: quickloading on the main thread is not the answer though, and neither is modifying swank init to use fd-handler
2020-02-12T13:46:00Z jmercouris: unless I did something wrong when I attempted to quickload on the main thread
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2020-02-12T13:49:33Z Nilby: It doesn't create threads when loading this example, only after calling (start). Also since swank uses a socket, if I remember correctly gtk usually needs you to register sockets with it to work. But then it probably won't know how to hand off to slime.
2020-02-12T13:50:25Z jmercouris: maybe
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2020-02-12T13:51:17Z jmercouris: try this file: http://ix.io/2bvw
2020-02-12T13:51:34Z jmercouris: sbcl --load file.lisp, then (trivial-main-thread::call-in-main-thread #'gtk-tutorial::start)
2020-02-12T13:51:57Z jmercouris: then try the same thing, by starting slime and just loading that file with C-c C-l
2020-02-12T13:52:06Z jmercouris: and you'll see that it works in the first case, but not in the second
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2020-02-12T13:52:55Z jmercouris: In the first example, I forgot to mention that you slime-connect to localhost:4006 before running the trivial-main-thread code
2020-02-12T13:52:55Z Nilby: Maybe one would want it to work like emacs works with gtk, by having it's own event loop and handing off some events to gtk.
2020-02-12T13:53:38Z jmercouris: yeah, that is how it is usually done with this library there is a (within-main-loop) macro that does that
2020-02-12T13:53:51Z Nilby: Ah, I see.
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2020-02-12T13:53:54Z jmercouris: however, I cannot use that, as it breaks rendering for some special widgets on macOS (as we discussed earlier)
2020-02-12T13:54:02Z Nilby: Right.
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2020-02-12T15:00:43Z Xach: it looks like cl-dbi recently dropped its use of cl-syntax (which is nice) but it does break dbd-oracle
2020-02-12T15:01:04Z Xach: cl-syntax is the thing that prompted people to use @export (defun foo ...) rather than putting exports in defpackage
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2020-02-12T15:02:28Z Xach: i prefer defpackage to @export so you win some, you lose some
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2020-02-12T15:08:42Z beach: minion: memo for jmercouris: Yes, the code for first-class global environments is written in entirely portable Common Lisp.  But, of course, compilers of existing Common Lisp implementations don't use them, so you need a Cleavir-based compiler for that.
2020-02-12T15:08:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-02-12T15:09:23Z beach: jmercouris: Heh, I just had minion remember a memo for you.
2020-02-12T15:09:51Z jmercouris: oh
2020-02-12T15:09:51Z minion: jmercouris, memo from beach: Yes, the code for first-class global environments is written in entirely portable Common Lisp.  But, of course, compilers of existing Common Lisp implementations don't use them, so you need a Cleavir-based compiler for that.
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2020-02-12T15:09:54Z jmercouris: there it is :-)
2020-02-12T15:10:17Z jmercouris: beach: and Cleavir is also portable
2020-02-12T15:10:23Z jmercouris: so basically you have to run SICL?
2020-02-12T15:10:50Z jmercouris: is SICL just a technology demonstrator, or do you eventually plan to make it a complete implementation that one can download and use?
2020-02-12T15:11:56Z beach: Yes, Cleavir is "portable", but it is not easily "retargetable".
2020-02-12T15:12:09Z beach: That is, it can run in any Common Lisp implementation that also has a MOP library.
2020-02-12T15:12:21Z beach: But currently, it only generates code for Clasp or SICL.
2020-02-12T15:12:50Z jmercouris: oh I see
2020-02-12T15:12:54Z beach: I am working on making SICL a complete implementation.
2020-02-12T15:13:02Z jmercouris: that'll be really cool
2020-02-12T15:13:13Z beach: I have been busy with ELS submissions, but otherwise, I am working on code generation.
2020-02-12T15:13:36Z jmercouris: what percentage of the way is the task complete would you estimate? (making SICL a complete implementation)
2020-02-12T15:14:32Z beach: I don't think there is much left in order to make it work, but then there is a lot of work left to make it fast.
2020-02-12T15:14:51Z jmercouris: I see, that's the hard part
2020-02-12T15:15:06Z beach: Not really.  Just tedious.
2020-02-12T15:15:50Z jmercouris: tedious for me = hard
2020-02-12T15:15:54Z beach: I see.
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2020-02-12T15:16:05Z jmercouris: as in, I can't motivate myself to do any tedious work
2020-02-12T15:16:11Z beach: I am secretly hoping that, once I have an executable, I will get a bit more help with the tedious work.
2020-02-12T15:16:13Z jmercouris: one of my main drives to be a programmer
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2020-02-12T15:16:29Z jmercouris: you probably will
2020-02-12T15:16:34Z jmercouris: when people can easily hack on it, the community will grow
2020-02-12T15:16:53Z beach: We will see.
2020-02-12T15:17:05Z jmercouris: time always tells the truth
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2020-02-12T15:17:36Z beach: Sure.  I need to call my niece.  If you want more information, we hang out in #sicl.
2020-02-12T15:17:58Z jmercouris: OK
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2020-02-12T15:20:58Z ebrasca: I don't undestand why SICL?
2020-02-12T15:27:52Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: do you mean why the name is "sicl"? afair beach said that there is no particular reason and it is not an acronym of anything (except of the CL suffix of course)
2020-02-12T15:28:23Z ebrasca: Why new CL implementation.
2020-02-12T15:28:29Z decent-username: "Super Ifficient Common Lisp"
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2020-02-12T15:29:46Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: my answer would be "why not?". that said sicl is implemented from scratch in full Common Lisp - luxury other implementations did not have - they have grown from previous lisp incarnations or are bootstrapped from other languages
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2020-02-12T15:30:15Z ebrasca: Do SICL have some LAP to steal from?
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2020-02-12T15:30:38Z jackdaniel: and using full Common Lisp instead of i.e subset gives you cleaner code; moreover some hardware characteristics has changed and they are taken into account when it is designed
2020-02-12T15:30:44Z jackdaniel: LAP?
2020-02-12T15:31:05Z ebrasca: LAP = lisp assembly program.
2020-02-12T15:32:18Z jackdaniel: afaik sicl project has its own assembly emitter, I don't remember its name. I'd suspect that it is up to the cleavir's lir implementer to use it or to use some custom "LAP"
2020-02-12T15:33:04Z jackdaniel: i.e clasp hooks llvm ir there
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2020-02-12T16:05:58Z beach: ebrasca: I don't think it is appropriate for me to pollute #sicl with yet another series of utterances about why I started the SICL project.  If you really want to know, join #sicl.
2020-02-12T16:06:04Z beach: The assembler that SICL uses is called Cluster, and it is a separate repository.  You will likely be disappointed by it, because it does not have a surface syntax, since it is meant as a backend for compilers.
2020-02-12T16:06:05Z beach: If you were to write an assembly program for it, it would look like (list (make-instance 'instruction :mnemonic "MOV" :operands ...) (make-instance 'instruction :mnemonic "ADD" :operands ...))
2020-02-12T16:07:05Z jackdaniel: did you mean "pollute #lisp"?
2020-02-12T16:07:11Z beach: Oops, yes.
2020-02-12T16:07:18Z beach: Sorry! *blush*
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2020-02-12T16:08:19Z pjb: Wouldn't it be trivial for a lisper to write: (defun assemble (instruction) (apply (function make-instance) 'instruction :mnemonic (symbol-name (car instruction)) :operands (mapcar (function assemble-operand) (cdr instruction)))) ?
2020-02-12T16:08:35Z pjb: Don't excluse yourself, you've done more than enough. Thanks!
2020-02-12T16:08:36Z beach: pjb: That is exactly my point, yes.
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2020-02-12T16:09:16Z beach: So rather than imposing a syntax on the user, and syntax seems to be what everyone can disagree upon, I allow for whatever surface syntax you want.
2020-02-12T16:09:24Z pjb: Exactly.
2020-02-12T16:09:29Z pjb: Good design.
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2020-02-12T16:09:40Z beach: Thank you.
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2020-02-12T16:18:10Z beach: ebrasca: I guess I can say one unique thing, which jackdaniel already hinted.  SICL is the first implementation I know of that is written entirely using the full Common Lisp language.
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2020-02-12T16:18:11Z beach: Even an implementation such as SBCL (with very little code in any other language) can not use the full language for certain modules, in particular the compiler.  The SICL bootstrapping technique is unique, and allows me to use the full language for every module.
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2020-02-12T16:19:18Z pfdietz: The SBCL type system implementation has some hairy code that would benefit greatly from being able to use CL's full object system.
2020-02-12T16:19:35Z beach: I can very well believe that.
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2020-02-12T16:44:18Z |Pirx|: I'm playing with hunchentoot, I want it to handle all requests with the same function (looking up uris in a hash table and returning a fixed string), not maintaining a list of handlers, not serving files, what would be a good way to do that?
2020-02-12T16:45:10Z |Pirx|: define-easy-handler use a handlers list, depending on uris, but I want the same functions for everything
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2020-02-12T16:48:17Z _death: you want to create a dispatcher
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2020-02-12T16:49:19Z |Pirx|: the dispatcher is single thread I guess...
2020-02-12T16:51:59Z _death: https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#subclassing-acceptors
2020-02-12T16:52:10Z |Pirx|: thank you!
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2020-02-12T17:30:22Z alandipert: hi all, i'd be grateful for any feedback from anyone on my ELS submission about my WIP browser-based implementation, JACL. thanks in advance - https://tailrecursion.com/~alan/documents/jacl-els-2020-draft.pdf
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2020-02-12T18:16:55Z _death: what is its current state? are there any example programs?
2020-02-12T18:20:10Z alandipert: _death https://gist.github.com/alandipert/bf7167580f385d7eb8f6dd0fb38698cf demonstrates most of what's currently available
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2020-02-12T18:21:42Z alandipert: which is to say... not very much 8-)
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2020-02-12T18:28:26Z alandipert: i've been plugging away at it for over a year though, with no signs of stopping. looking forward to collaborating on it with people after it reaches a certain point
2020-02-12T18:31:24Z Xach: alandipert: glad to see some review of jscl, which is what immediately sprang to mind for me
2020-02-12T18:32:56Z alandipert: Xach thanks, yeah, jscl... i've really enjoyed exploring jscl, it's filled with excellent ideas
2020-02-12T18:33:34Z alandipert: the way it supports multiple values is especially clever, i will probably end up with a similar approach
2020-02-12T18:34:16Z _death: hmm, disconnected so don't know if this went through.. I guess one question would be, what is the rationale for creating something new from scratch instead of improving an existing implementation
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2020-02-12T18:35:37Z vms14: _death: isn't the lisper philosophy to write your own stuff?
2020-02-12T18:36:04Z vms14: aren't lispers the kind of people who likes to write their own tools?
2020-02-12T18:36:10Z vms14: like*
2020-02-12T18:36:41Z alandipert: _death i struggle with this, but decided ultimately that the jscl project goal was not in alignment with my own. and so i couldn't expect other users to want to collaborate on a rewrite
2020-02-12T18:37:08Z vms14: alandipert: I'd like to see a nice lisp interpreter written in js for the browser
2020-02-12T18:37:19Z alandipert: vms14 look at SLip
2020-02-12T18:37:23Z vms14: like fengari.io did for Lua
2020-02-12T18:37:25Z alandipert: it's mindblowing
2020-02-12T18:37:32Z _death: alandipert: ok, but maybe such an explanation belongs in the paper
2020-02-12T18:37:36Z dlowe: it's not the lisper philosophy it's the hobbiest philosophy
2020-02-12T18:37:43Z vms14: alandipert: I was looking at that, and biwascheme or alike
2020-02-12T18:38:02Z dlowe: *hobbyist
2020-02-12T18:38:03Z vms14: dlowe: what's the lisp philosophy by the way?
2020-02-12T18:38:12Z dlowe: vms14: "lisp is kinda cool"
2020-02-12T18:38:17Z vms14: xD
2020-02-12T18:38:18Z alandipert: _death thank you for reading, i will consider this
2020-02-12T18:38:31Z dlowe: it unifies all lispers
2020-02-12T18:39:12Z vms14: right, I've never seen any "language fan" talk so high like lispers do with lisp
2020-02-12T18:39:19Z vms14: this is why I came to lisp
2020-02-12T18:39:31Z vms14: I wanted to check by myself if they were right, and they were
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2020-02-12T18:40:20Z vms14: still I'm not able to explain to the people how lisp is so cool
2020-02-12T18:40:43Z vms14: they just blame and stick to their languages
2020-02-12T18:41:39Z dlowe: well you need to show them via amazing code that you wrote
2020-02-12T18:41:48Z dlowe: just telling them isn't going to do anything
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2020-02-12T18:44:15Z vms14 looks at his code and cries
2020-02-12T18:44:51Z dlowe: not the actual code
2020-02-12T18:44:55Z dlowe: the results of the code
2020-02-12T18:45:14Z _death: alandipert: may want to fix the sentence containing the word "potential"
2020-02-12T18:45:47Z dlowe: and when you show them the amazing frob you made, they'll say yeah but I made a better frob using import frob and then extending it
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2020-02-12T18:48:47Z _death: may not be the most amazing frob, but it's my frob
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2020-02-12T18:49:13Z vms14: the only stuff I've achieved with lisp was yet another html generator with code able to make you cry and some clx windows using xshape so they're characters moving on the screen
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2020-02-12T18:51:15Z _death: I recently spent two days in javascript land :/
2020-02-12T18:52:11Z Odin-: Oi, now there's a scary place.
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2020-02-12T18:52:18Z _death: to hack a frontend to demonstrate some of my recent CL code to others
2020-02-12T18:53:56Z alandipert: _death a SPA type thing? or were you doing electron stuff? or something different
2020-02-12T18:54:37Z _death: alandipert: I usually avoid anything that requires javascript (my main browser has js disabled by default).. but for this it was kind of needed so I went all out
2020-02-12T18:54:41Z dlowe: the only reasonable choices are to enjoy lisp by yourself (and the very intelligent and good looking lispers on IRC) or use whatever the people around you are using
2020-02-12T18:54:54Z _death: alandipert: https://adeht.org/bayes/ play with some bayesian networks
2020-02-12T18:54:58Z dlowe: or both, I guess
2020-02-12T18:56:14Z alandipert: _death slick!
2020-02-12T18:56:19Z _death: (the HIRE one is very early work in progress, so don't take it too seriously :)
2020-02-12T18:57:09Z _death: although this week I'm working on influence diagrams
2020-02-12T18:57:11Z alandipert: how did you find yourself propagating effects in response to clicks? in a past life i've taken a Cells type approach, albeit from clojurescript
2020-02-12T18:58:12Z _death: alandipert: the probability propagation is made on the server.. if you mean the UI, it's react
2020-02-12T18:59:01Z alandipert: _death gotcha. so you are receiving full graphs from the server, and react is relegating them with the local UI state it sounds like?
2020-02-12T19:00:03Z _death: alandipert: currently probability propagation happens using a junction tree.. before that, I used variable elimination to query for each node.. also implemented pearl's belief propagation (extended for polytrees), and approximate approaches such as likelihood weighting
2020-02-12T19:00:28Z _death: alandipert: yes
2020-02-12T19:01:45Z _death: I also implemented several BN structure/parameter learning algorithms.. and before that hidden markov model, bayesian classifiers, etc.  basically I'm reading a book about probabilistic graphical models and implementing most of what it talks about
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2020-02-12T19:02:18Z _death: all in the same file :)
2020-02-12T19:02:23Z alandipert: _death i'm a lowly UI dev but reading books and writing stuff rocks
2020-02-12T19:02:23Z _death:   -rw-r--r--  1 death users 225373 2020-02-12 17:32 pgm-book.lisp
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2020-02-12T19:04:43Z Nilby: alandipert: You are the exhalted author of gherkin!
2020-02-12T19:05:51Z _death: alandipert: it takes a while to read a book that way.. and also, it's intertwined with many papers ;)
2020-02-12T19:06:47Z alandipert: Nilby i'm humbled you're familiar with it :-) working on that was ridiculously fun
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2020-02-12T19:07:16Z Nilby: I had a similar complusion of writing in bash at one time.
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2020-02-12T19:17:32Z vms14: alandipert: I went again to see slip, and I'm being amazed for this guy
2020-02-12T19:17:41Z vms14: he wrote not only slip, but also ymacs and dynarchlib
2020-02-12T19:18:02Z alandipert: vms14 yeah. it's an amazing and inspiring effort, especially for a solo dev
2020-02-12T19:18:43Z alandipert: vms14 as far as i'm concerned, it it were possible to "win" at the reading of PAIP, the creator of SLip has won
2020-02-12T19:19:08Z vms14: why? I've never read more than the first pages of PAIP
2020-02-12T19:19:24Z vms14: (I would be the one who looses) xD
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2020-02-12T19:22:36Z alandipert: vms14 oh, just because he started with the compiler and bytecode interpreter in PAIP and ended up with a lisp system with cooperative multitasking and an emacs clone
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2020-02-12T19:25:50Z Nilby: That screencast of SLip and Ymacs is pretty awesome.
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2020-02-12T19:28:23Z vms14: alandipert: xD
2020-02-12T19:28:42Z alandipert: Nilby i know! epic!
2020-02-12T19:28:53Z vms14: Nilby: yes, but the documentation sucks
2020-02-12T19:29:41Z vms14: well, it's lisper style documentation
2020-02-12T19:29:57Z vms14: "here's the source code, get fun"
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2020-02-12T19:30:05Z vms14: have*
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2020-02-12T19:30:37Z ebrasca: vms14: Do you make good documentation?
2020-02-12T19:30:58Z vms14: ebrasca: I don't even make documentation
2020-02-12T19:31:08Z Nilby: I just took it as entertainment. What I actually want to use is the other way around, the browswer inside emacs inside CL.
2020-02-12T19:31:26Z ebrasca: vms14: Then why you complain about documentation?
2020-02-12T19:31:34Z vms14: I want to use slip, idk why but I want a js interpreter instead of a transpiler
2020-02-12T19:32:05Z vms14: ebrasca: because I'm not able to find how to start playing withthat, more than with the turtle library
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2020-02-12T19:33:30Z ebrasca: turtle library , sound interesting
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2020-02-12T19:35:30Z vms14: ebrasca: it's a "cursor" that goes drawing lines when it moves, just take a look at the slip site
2020-02-12T19:35:35Z vms14: http://lisperator.net/slip/
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2020-02-12T19:36:48Z vms14: the thing is I want to use slip for making a blog, but the documentation says "look at this shiny code I wrote and figure it by yourself :D"
2020-02-12T19:39:28Z ebrasca: vms14: Writing good documentation is hard!
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2020-02-12T19:40:02Z Odin-: Documentation is annoyingly often the weak point of Lisp code.
2020-02-12T19:40:37Z ebrasca: I am sure it is not only Lisp code.
2020-02-12T19:41:04Z Odin-: Perhaps not, but I've found it particularly noticeable with Lisps.
2020-02-12T19:41:24Z vms14: Odin-: right, you're not the only guy who says that, and I'm not meaning me
2020-02-12T19:41:39Z vms14: the only nice documentation I've seen in lisp is hunchentoot doc
2020-02-12T19:41:48Z vms14: but sure there are more
2020-02-12T19:41:54Z Odin-: (JavaScript, for instance, tends to have a serious issue with code quality.)
2020-02-12T19:42:22Z Nilby: Well documented things destroy our opportunity to practice writing documentation, and independently understanding dense and arcane code.
2020-02-12T19:42:25Z vms14: Perl tends to have a nice documentation in all user provided modules
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2020-02-12T19:47:16Z vms14: which is weird because this guy was a perl hacker
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2020-02-12T19:50:32Z ebrasca: I don't know how to write documentation.
2020-02-12T19:50:44Z ebrasca: vms14: What about dowstrings?
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2020-02-12T19:52:46Z vms14: docstrings talk about what a function does, write documententation is a thing we usually don't want to do, specially if we don't know how many people would use that
2020-02-12T19:53:06Z vms14: and also we tend to think that like we understand our own code, they will too
2020-02-12T19:54:11Z vms14: but documentation is an important factor for succesful software
2020-02-12T19:54:27Z vms14: anyway I suppose lispers are used to look at the code and track what the heck the software is doing
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2020-02-12T19:54:47Z _death: M-. is useful
2020-02-12T19:55:47Z vms14: for example the clx documentation assumes you know how to use xlib
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2020-02-12T19:56:10Z vms14: and it's just a reference manual
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2020-02-12T22:06:10Z Xach: A long time ago I bought a book about X, and it mentioned that some limits are what they are to accomodate Common Lisp tagged integers.
2020-02-12T22:06:18Z Xach: This was before I knew anything about CL.
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2020-02-12T22:08:12Z Nilby: Also it has a concept of ATOM and INTERN.
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2020-02-12T22:09:34Z jfb4: Xach: what are tagged integers?
2020-02-12T22:09:39Z Nilby: I think CLX was developed at least in parallel with Xlib or maybe before?
2020-02-12T22:12:41Z no-defun-allowed: jfb4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tagged_pointer
2020-02-12T22:13:46Z no-defun-allowed: Basically they allow a fixnum to be represented in one word without heap memory by jamming the fixnum in the pointer with a different bit pattern to actual pointers.
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2020-02-12T23:44:04Z Xach: jfb4: it's using a few bits in a word to have immediate (rather than boxed) integers
2020-02-12T23:44:30Z Xach: jfb4: so some 32-bit-ish things in the X protocol are 29 bits instead
2020-02-12T23:45:02Z Xach: this was a bigger deal in 32 bits than 64 bits
2020-02-12T23:45:12Z Xach: still a deal, just not quite as big
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2020-02-13T00:08:18Z pjb: jfb4: well, the tag isn't necessarily stored in the same word as the integer bits.
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2020-02-13T00:09:25Z pjb: jfb4: the tag could be stored in a separate byte, perhaps near the word where the integer is stored, perhaps not.  Perhaps it's not even associated directly with the integer, but instead, with the memory page, ie. the address where the integer is stored (integer or other type).
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2020-02-13T00:13:54Z pjb: jfb4: but it is correct that the X11 protocol is specified leaving the upper 3 bits in its handles set to 0, to make it simple for lisp and other tagged languages to use it.  https://www.x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/xproto/x11protocol.html#Common_Types
2020-02-13T00:15:14Z pjb: jfb4: note that usually tags in fixnums are stored in the lower bits instead, since it makes it more easily to manipulate on a normal 32-bit processor (additions and subtractions can be performed without change, multiplications and division by prefixing or suffixing a shift operation on one of the arguments).
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2020-02-13T11:44:19Z Xach: Today is a Quicklisp release day
2020-02-13T11:45:58Z decent-username: O . o
2020-02-13T11:46:04Z Josh_2: very kewl
2020-02-13T11:46:09Z Josh_2: Happy Quicklisp release day :D
2020-02-13T11:46:18Z decent-username: Xach: What exactly does that mean? Are we out of beta?
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2020-02-13T12:08:06Z Xach: decent-username: i am too terse. i meant a quicklisp dist release, not a quicklisp non-beta release.
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2020-02-13T13:00:49Z Cymew: Talking about that. How goes the effort to get out of beta?
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2020-02-13T13:07:52Z Xach: Cymew: very very slow. there are many tasks and little progress is made.
2020-02-13T13:08:45Z Xach: I do what I can to keep updates coming, but it's been slow progress on other stuff.
2020-02-13T13:09:12Z jmercouris: I have the following code: http://dpaste.com/15ZXX2D
2020-02-13T13:09:39Z jmercouris: what I would like to do is pass the callback function from web-view-execute to be executed in js-execution-complete
2020-02-13T13:09:58Z jmercouris: I don't know how to do that though since js-execution-complete is a cffi callback
2020-02-13T13:10:27Z jmercouris: ideas?
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2020-02-13T13:12:38Z jmercouris: my only ideas so far are to use global state, but I don't like that
2020-02-13T13:12:49Z shka_: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/get_002dcallback.html ?
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2020-02-13T13:13:22Z jmercouris: shka_: I don't understand where you are going with this
2020-02-13T13:13:52Z shka_: jmercouris: get-callback allows you to obtain callback object from a symbol
2020-02-13T13:15:59Z Nilby: Xach: Do you have a quicklisp todo list somewhere I could help remove things from?
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2020-02-13T13:21:18Z jmercouris: OK, shka_ and what will I do with the callback-object?
2020-02-13T13:21:23Z shka_: jmercouris: (cffi:foreign-funcall-pointer (cffi:get-callback 'callback-no-arguments) ())
2020-02-13T13:21:26Z shka_: you call it
2020-02-13T13:21:40Z jmercouris: I can't call the callback function though
2020-02-13T13:21:46Z shka_: see the above
2020-02-13T13:21:57Z jmercouris: it is handled by webkit2:webkit-web-view-run-javascript
2020-02-13T13:22:12Z shka_: this is function that can be called like C callback, so call it like c callback
2020-02-13T13:22:20Z shka_: :-)
2020-02-13T13:22:35Z jmercouris: it is like a C callback
2020-02-13T13:22:43Z jmercouris: so you are saying I can substitute my own callback functio
2020-02-13T13:22:56Z jmercouris: instead of js-execution-complete?
2020-02-13T13:23:00Z shka_: i think i don't understand this, let me read
2020-02-13T13:23:16Z jmercouris: let me try to re-explain
2020-02-13T13:23:36Z jmercouris: I have webkit-web-view-run-javascript which runs some javascript in C land, and calls js-execution-complete with the result of that javascript
2020-02-13T13:23:39Z shka_: yes, please
2020-02-13T13:23:43Z shka_: ok
2020-02-13T13:23:48Z jmercouris: I want to take that javascript result and call my OWN callback
2020-02-13T13:23:57Z jmercouris: which I specify by passing into web-view-execute
2020-02-13T13:24:08Z shka_: reasonable
2020-02-13T13:24:10Z jmercouris: does that make more sense?
2020-02-13T13:25:00Z jmercouris: so my original way of doing this was having some global state like (defparamater callback-fn (lambda (x) (print x))) and then I'd funcall (callback-fn..) within js-execution-complete
2020-02-13T13:25:12Z shka_: ok, so i suggest to define callback with defcallback, pass it as pointer whetever it is needed, and then foreign-funcall-pointer it when it is needed
2020-02-13T13:25:43Z jmercouris: can you please explain this further for me, I'm not sure I understand
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2020-02-13T13:25:59Z jmercouris: I have a defcallback already made
2020-02-13T13:26:03Z jmercouris: what is the purpose of this new one?
2020-02-13T13:26:34Z shka_: ok so you have js-execution-complete callback
2020-02-13T13:26:39Z jmercouris: that is correct
2020-02-13T13:26:45Z jmercouris: and it accepts the correct number of arguments
2020-02-13T13:26:59Z shka_: and you want to call another callback within it
2020-02-13T13:27:00Z jmercouris: which will be automatically invoked by webkit-web-view-run-javascript WHEN the javascript has completed evaluation
2020-02-13T13:27:08Z jmercouris: I want to call my own custom callback within it
2020-02-13T13:27:21Z jmercouris: I want it to be a simple lisp function that accepts one argument
2020-02-13T13:27:28Z jmercouris: (defun my-callback (x) (print x))
2020-02-13T13:27:51Z shka_: ok, so typically C APIs work by passing void* pointers holding arbitrary state
2020-02-13T13:27:56Z shka_: is this a case here?
2020-02-13T13:28:03Z jmercouris: I'm not sure, I don't remember the API
2020-02-13T13:28:09Z shka_: ok, let me check
2020-02-13T13:29:04Z shka_: https://lazka.github.io/pgi-docs/WebKit2-4.0/classes/WebView.html#WebKit2.WebView.run_javascript
2020-02-13T13:29:10Z shka_: jmercouris: it appears to be the case
2020-02-13T13:29:21Z jmercouris: oh
2020-02-13T13:29:25Z jmercouris: so the last argument is user data
2020-02-13T13:29:28Z shka_: therefore i recommend to pass another callback as your user data
2020-02-13T13:29:41Z jmercouris: I can pass a lisp function as my void*?
2020-02-13T13:29:43Z shka_: and the call it as you would do with a C code
2020-02-13T13:29:46Z jmercouris: that will work ? and it won't lose its mind?
2020-02-13T13:29:46Z shka_: no, you can't
2020-02-13T13:29:50Z Nilby: You'd have to name it an pass the name as a string or something, because the callback is in lisp isn't in C memory, so you can't just put it in a void*
2020-02-13T13:30:07Z jmercouris: so I could pass the symbol string value or so?
2020-02-13T13:30:12Z jmercouris: what if it is a lambda
2020-02-13T13:30:15Z shka_: jmercouris: you can pass pointer to callback defined with defcallback
2020-02-13T13:30:28Z shka_: and the pointer can be obtained with (get-callback ...)
2020-02-13T13:30:31Z jmercouris: shka_: say that again?
2020-02-13T13:31:20Z jmercouris: so I can do (get-callback (lambda (xyz) (print xyz)))?
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2020-02-13T13:31:38Z jmercouris: no wait, I cannot
2020-02-13T13:31:42Z jmercouris: I must always use defcallbackk
2020-02-13T13:31:55Z shka_: ok, so i am saying that I recommend to rewrite your lisp function callback to cffi callback, pass pointer to it as user data and call it as C function
2020-02-13T13:32:04Z shka_: which i demonstrated above
2020-02-13T13:32:20Z jmercouris: that's the problem
2020-02-13T13:32:24Z jmercouris: I'm not the only user of this function
2020-02-13T13:32:31Z jmercouris: and I can't expect everyone to write CFFI callbacks
2020-02-13T13:32:47Z jmercouris: is there a way to transform the lisp function transparently to a CFFI callback?
2020-02-13T13:32:56Z shka_: hmmm
2020-02-13T13:33:28Z jmercouris: I was hoping to be able to use a closure or something, anything
2020-02-13T13:33:44Z jmercouris: you know it's OK, I'll think about it for a bit and get back to this later
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2020-02-13T13:33:57Z jmercouris: some times these things just need time to settle
2020-02-13T13:34:28Z jmercouris: In the worst case I'll go back to a global hash table of callback IDs... :-D
2020-02-13T13:34:52Z jmercouris: or maybe I extend wekit-webview-run-javascript so that it is not obvious that is what is happening :-P
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2020-02-13T13:35:13Z shka_: yeah, i really don't know, i never quite figure out what is the best way to pass lisp objects to C
2020-02-13T13:36:18Z Nilby: Symbols are already a hash table, so if you just name it you get it back.
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2020-02-13T13:37:51Z jmercouris: IF you name it
2020-02-13T13:37:57Z jmercouris: which does not allow for lambdas
2020-02-13T13:38:11Z jmercouris: then again, I might make a macro that transparently gensym or something
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2020-02-13T13:38:42Z Nilby: Yes. You can gensym, and even put in a separate package if you want.
2020-02-13T13:39:12Z jmercouris: that's an interesssante idea
2020-02-13T13:39:25Z jmercouris: I'll play with that later
2020-02-13T13:39:34Z jmercouris: thanks
2020-02-13T13:41:08Z decent-username: Is there a variable you can set to disable "Sort slots alphabetically" inside the *slime-inspector*?
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2020-02-13T13:41:27Z decent-username: Or rather: I know that such a variable exists. How do I figure out it's name?
2020-02-13T13:41:55Z decent-username: currently I always have to uncheck that box whenever I inspect an object.
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2020-02-13T13:48:57Z lieven: you could try APROPOS with a few likely strings
2020-02-13T13:50:46Z decent-username: lieven: I was thinking about a variable inside Emacs.
2020-02-13T13:52:28Z lieven: emacs has apropos too
2020-02-13T13:52:39Z jmercouris: you could search the slime source
2020-02-13T13:52:42Z jmercouris: there is oftentimes documentation within the source about things which are not in the manual
2020-02-13T13:52:57Z decent-username: jmercouris: Guess I'll have to do that.
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2020-02-13T14:13:24Z pfdietz: QL release day?  What systems will have broken and be thrown under the bus...
2020-02-13T14:16:20Z jdz: Only the naughty ones!
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2020-02-13T14:19:22Z jmercouris: I'm speechless
2020-02-13T14:21:35Z jdz: jmercouris: At least you can still type!
2020-02-13T14:21:47Z jmercouris: Luckily :-)
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2020-02-13T14:23:51Z edgar-rft: QL release day - was it in jail?
2020-02-13T14:24:41Z Xach: pfdietz: dbd-oracle is one
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2020-02-13T14:27:43Z Xach: I'm basing this on the 1.5.8 build list. punting on 2.0.x for now
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2020-02-13T14:32:46Z _death: is the caution with 2.0.x because of the feature list changes?
2020-02-13T14:34:14Z Xach: _death: there are some more aggressive checks for other things too
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2020-02-13T14:35:49Z _death: I see
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2020-02-13T15:20:45Z Cymew: Xach: I see. Well. I hope it can get out of beta eventually. Proud "Quicklisp supporter club" member anyway. Your work is appreciated.
2020-02-13T15:21:28Z jmercouris: how to deallocate widget in cl-cffi-gtk?
2020-02-13T15:21:35Z jmercouris: enough to remove references to it and it will be cleaned up?
2020-02-13T15:29:27Z Xach: Cymew: thank you!
2020-02-13T15:29:59Z Xach submits his first slime patch in a long time
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2020-02-13T15:30:11Z Xach: https://github.com/slime/slime/pull/547 fixes something that has vexed me for years
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2020-02-13T15:30:32Z jmercouris: I just clicked the link
2020-02-13T15:30:45Z jmercouris: hoping that it is the fact that slime randomly rearranges one's layout
2020-02-13T15:30:56Z jmercouris: ah, damn, that is also annoying too
2020-02-13T15:31:32Z jmercouris: good luck on getting that merged!
2020-02-13T15:32:41Z jmercouris: what is this "smug xyz weenie" that I keep seeing everywhere
2020-02-13T15:32:48Z jmercouris: what is a "smug lisp weenie"?
2020-02-13T15:33:04Z Xach: jmercouris: it is a concept from 15-20 years ago
2020-02-13T15:33:26Z _death: turned into a KT blog
2020-02-13T15:33:39Z Xach: some people embraced the label with the attitude that Lisp is Just Better and if you Don't Get It maybe You Never Will so Tough Luck, Idiot
2020-02-13T15:34:01Z Cymew: KT?
2020-02-13T15:34:01Z jmercouris: oh, that's not very friendly
2020-02-13T15:34:14Z Xach: Tough Luck, Idiot!
2020-02-13T15:34:16Z jmercouris: KT = short hand for knights in Age of Empires II
2020-02-13T15:34:20Z _death: Cymew: https://smuglispweeny.blogspot.com/
2020-02-13T15:34:27Z jmercouris: In the "software engineering" field, we have a computer language called Lisp. It was invented near the dawn of civilization (or so I've been told), and that the cuneiform tablets of Sumeria contained the prototype of the parenthesis that became the hallmark of a Lisp program
2020-02-13T15:34:32Z jmercouris: source?: http://howardism.org/Philosophy/Smug_Philosophers.html
2020-02-13T15:34:34Z Cymew: Look at that.
2020-02-13T15:35:31Z Cymew: I had almost forgotten about Tilton.
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2020-02-13T15:35:37Z Xach: jmercouris: I think the theory is that some people need a shock to break out of old patterns of thinking. Some people, I think, do use that technique with virtuous goals. But it's also used by sadists and bullies, so.
2020-02-13T15:35:42Z _death: Xach: that's a nice patch, hope it will get merged sometime ;)
2020-02-13T15:36:20Z Xach: and sometimes Smug Lisp Weenie is just used tongue in cheek
2020-02-13T15:36:35Z _death: Cymew: I recently enjoyed re-reading his "my biggest lisp project" blog post
2020-02-13T15:36:42Z Xach: _death: i have a few for sb-introspect based on some of my #sbcl questions lately
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2020-02-13T15:37:09Z Cymew: _death: I never could figure him out. He was something of a loose cannon.
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2020-02-13T15:39:16Z jmercouris: Xach: I don't think that ever works, except on few people that are very headstrong
2020-02-13T15:39:36Z jmercouris: I thought a weenie was a type of sausage though or so
2020-02-13T15:39:46Z jmercouris: or maybe someone from Vienna?
2020-02-13T15:40:39Z _death: Xach: the other day I had a new slime patch as well.. I don't know when it started exactly, but for a while now if you press 'v' in the debugger to view source of code in a defmethod, there's a #:***HERE*** symbol stuck near the culprit, so I always had to search for it in the buffer.. welp, https://github.com/death/slime/commit/4921a08c1b9fffb9f79f709972a3c1b8816fe571
2020-02-13T15:41:15Z beach: Cymew: Here is a story for you.  A few months before the first ELS we were in Amsterdam for ECLM.  So since I was the local organizer of the first ELS I invited everyone to attend.  KT said something like "Never will I go to something like that, ECLM is the ONLY REAL LISP VENUE" and he said it very loud.
2020-02-13T15:41:30Z beach: Of course, ECLM is now gone and ELS is still here.
2020-02-13T15:42:15Z Cymew: beach: Sounds like the guy I remember, yes.
2020-02-13T15:43:12Z _death: Xach: there are other patches there as well, that may be useful
2020-02-13T15:43:18Z jmercouris: Hm, why was he so sour?
2020-02-13T15:43:50Z Cymew: He tended to show a strange mix of brilliance and childishness.
2020-02-13T15:44:01Z _death: was it thought to be competing with ECLM?
2020-02-13T15:44:12Z Xach: _death: what's the deal with the #:***here*** symbol?
2020-02-13T15:44:19Z beach: _death: No, they were completely different.
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2020-02-13T15:44:40Z beach: At ECLM speakers were invited.  Usually from industry.
2020-02-13T15:44:48Z beach: ELS is an academic conference.
2020-02-13T15:44:59Z _death: Xach: the source shown is a macroexpansion, and #:***here*** is the way sbcl marks the place I guess
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2020-02-13T15:45:09Z Xach: _death: interesting
2020-02-13T15:45:29Z _death: beach: I see
2020-02-13T15:46:43Z beach: _death: ECLM was fun, but different.  It was great to see all these people, including Arthur and Edi, the organizers.
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2020-02-13T15:47:11Z beach: In Europe, everything is close, so many people would attend both, and for good reasons.
2020-02-13T15:47:25Z _death: beach: I bet :)
2020-02-13T15:47:28Z jmercouris: I've long suspected beach is secretly American
2020-02-13T15:47:43Z jmercouris: I have more and more evidence by "In Europe, everything is close" lol :-D
2020-02-13T15:47:49Z jmercouris: no European would say that
2020-02-13T15:48:14Z beach: jmercouris: I have lived in 5 countries on 4 continents.
2020-02-13T15:48:44Z jmercouris: well, I didn't see a denial there! :-D
2020-02-13T15:49:09Z Cymew: I have lived in north america, and as a European I also say "everything is close in Europe!".
2020-02-13T15:49:10Z beach: Heh, I am sure a visa would be required of me, were I to go to the US any time soon.
2020-02-13T15:50:08Z beach: I lived in Auckland for a year, and there were around 10 Lispers within a radius of a 3 hour flight.
2020-02-13T15:50:52Z jmercouris: I've never even met someone else who uses Emacs in my whole life. Sometimes I feel like a bottle with a cork bobbing up and down in an ocean of javascript developers
2020-02-13T15:51:06Z Cymew: Really?
2020-02-13T15:51:09Z Cymew: Impressive.
2020-02-13T15:51:50Z jmercouris: really, only one professor of mine who switched to Emacs...
2020-02-13T15:51:59Z montaropdf: jmercouris: I do relate, except the the one guy that introduce me to emacs so longtime ago
2020-02-13T15:52:24Z beach: jmercouris: You need to come to ELS more often.
2020-02-13T15:52:35Z jmercouris: I will, as soon as health permits :-)
2020-02-13T15:52:44Z beach: Ouch.  I see.
2020-02-13T15:53:19Z Cymew: I'm more of an old school sysadmin so I find many emacs users among people I meet. Young devs are probably all visual basic and js users for all I know.
2020-02-13T15:53:28Z jmercouris: It's OK :-)
2020-02-13T15:53:30Z Cymew: Remember that smug weenie part...
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2020-02-13T15:53:51Z jmercouris: and yes, Cymew I've only met Atom, Sublime, VSCode, and the like users
2020-02-13T15:56:10Z jmercouris: goodbye for now
2020-02-13T15:56:17Z Cymew: Cheers.
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2020-02-13T16:01:49Z Xach: ECLM was more aligned with my interests. But any gathering of Common Lisp users is welcome regardless of the context.
2020-02-13T16:03:30Z beach: It's too bad ILC has not been organized for a while.
2020-02-13T16:03:45Z beach: There were plans for Japan, but it never happened.
2020-02-13T16:04:54Z beach: It doesn't matter *that* much.  It is not as though ELS is reserved for Europeans.  But it would have been the perfect excuse to go to Japan.
2020-02-13T16:05:47Z Nilby: I'm a little surprised that this works: (𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫 𝐟𝐨𝐨 (𝕤𝕥𝕣𝕚𝕟𝕘) (𝔣𝔬𝔯𝔪𝔞𝔱 𝘁 "WⱧ₳₮ ₮ⱧɆ ⱧɆ₵₭?? ~a~%" 𝕤𝕥𝕣𝕚𝕟𝕘))
2020-02-13T16:06:33Z Bike: the defun part is kind of surprising
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2020-02-13T16:07:18Z Nilby: Indeed. I'd have to say (|𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫| ...) to get a different defun.
2020-02-13T16:07:25Z _death: great, now I have to tr all my programs :)
2020-02-13T16:10:02Z Nilby: Except simple tr won't necessarily work..
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2020-02-13T16:30:12Z Cymew: I was just about to ask how you got the idea to even try that, but I guess I don't want to ask that.
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2020-02-13T16:34:50Z Nilby: I have a lot of ideas :) But for example consider this language: https://github.com/nasser/---
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2020-02-13T16:55:15Z p_l: Cymew: most people, even among old school sysadmins, seem to at best be Vi users :/
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2020-02-13T16:55:39Z Cymew: Nilby: You are nuts! ...and that's a compliment! ;)
2020-02-13T16:56:21Z Cymew: p_l: There are those, yes. But, at least it's not some newfangled js thingiemading.
2020-02-13T16:56:57Z p_l: at work I see a lot of admins using VScode
2020-02-13T16:57:42Z Nilby: Thanks. I'm just glad that CL can already support unusual characters and syntax.
2020-02-13T16:59:16Z p_l: Nilby: Symbolics Genera, not sure about older MIT CADR, supported using formatted text for source, but I think it stripped the formatting so you didn't have to remember to *bold* the function name, for example ;)
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2020-02-13T17:03:42Z Nilby: p_l: Right. I have lispm code with all those ^F1 etc. With unicode you don't need that. It's even more "font-lock"ed.
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2020-02-13T17:04:50Z p_l: Nilby: except unicode has those chars having *different* semantics
2020-02-13T17:07:10Z Nilby: Except not. Because the above function works. And it considers (eq '𝕤𝕥𝕣𝕚𝕟𝕘 'string) => t
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2020-02-13T17:08:15Z Nilby: But of course there are also places where it matters.
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2020-02-13T17:11:59Z Nilby: and （ｃｏｓ π） isn't (cos pi)
2020-02-13T17:12:21Z Nilby: but it could be with a little syntax table adjustments
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2020-02-13T17:13:41Z Nilby: er readtable that is
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2020-02-13T17:18:53Z scymtym: in SBCL it is SB-EXT:READTABLE-NORMALIZATION
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2020-02-13T17:22:00Z Nilby: Nice. I'm thankful for that. Apologies for possibly contaminating everyone's irc with mojibake.
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2020-02-13T19:51:09Z jasom: okay it's weird that (eq '𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫 'defun) but not (string-equal "DEFUN" (string-upcase "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫"))
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2020-02-13T19:57:13Z pjb:  (eq '𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫 'defun) #| --> nil |#
2020-02-13T19:57:27Z pjb: It should definitely not be equal…
2020-02-13T19:58:08Z pjb: and (string-equal "DEFUN" (string-upcase "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫")) is equivalent to (string-equal "DEFUN" "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫") and to (string-equal "defun" "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫")
2020-02-13T19:58:18Z pjb: (string-upcase "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫") #| --> "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫" |#
2020-02-13T19:58:47Z pjb: and to (string-equal '|Defun| "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫").
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2020-02-13T20:07:36Z Nilby: I'm glad it works that way. At least I think I am at the moment.
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2020-02-13T20:09:58Z Nilby: Maybe I'm blinded by the thrill of using so many new characters. I may live to regret it.
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2020-02-13T20:11:54Z jasom: pjb: on sbcl with default settings and my current locale: (eq 'defun '𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫) ; -> T
2020-02-13T20:12:28Z karlosz: can confirm its eq
2020-02-13T20:12:47Z karlosz: its a little amusing
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2020-02-13T20:12:56Z jasom: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Symbol-Name-Normalization
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2020-02-13T20:14:30Z jasom: (sb-unicode:normalize-string "𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔲𝔫" :nfkc) ; ->"defun"
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2020-02-13T20:15:37Z karlosz: ah, so the symbol reader normalizes strings
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2020-02-13T20:16:04Z karlosz: that's good
2020-02-13T20:16:32Z karlosz: now if only it was possible hook up a 1920's german typewriter to sbcl
2020-02-13T20:16:32Z jasom: in normalization K -> Kompatibility  which normalizes font, positional, circled, width, rotations, squared and fractions
2020-02-13T20:16:53Z jasom: so e.g. ︷  →  {
2020-02-13T20:17:54Z jasom: and it's done after it decides if a token is a number so ¼ reads in as the symbol '1/4 not the number 1/4
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2020-02-13T20:18:16Z jasom: er |1/4| not 1/4
2020-02-13T20:19:32Z fiund: is anybody else having (new) trouble with qtools on mac? (qt-libs:ensure-standalone-libs) succeeds, but (ql:quickload 'qtools) fails, unable to load libcommonqt.dylib
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2020-02-13T21:54:50Z lottaquestions: Hi all, has anyone gotten the code from Practical Common Lisp Working on SBCL?
2020-02-13T21:55:37Z lottaquestions: I get an exception thrown when trying to load the code using asdf
2020-02-13T21:58:42Z lottaquestions: See the stack trace: https://pastebin.com/Cr3JZmAF
2020-02-13T22:01:25Z lottaquestions: I modified the code in Chapter29, in playlist.lisp so that the param  *silence-mp3* points to an actual mp3 file
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2020-02-13T22:02:03Z lottaquestions: but when loading the source code from asdf, somehow it attempts to run this code and fails to open the said mp3 file
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2020-02-13T22:07:22Z jmercouris: lottaquestions: you could probaby get more help if you posted your code
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2020-02-13T22:09:25Z pjb: lottaquestions: you could use termbin.com : #!/bin/bash \n nc termbin.com 9999 | tr -d '\000'
2020-02-13T22:09:25Z pjb:  
2020-02-13T22:09:25Z pjb:  
2020-02-13T22:09:25Z pjb:  
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2020-02-13T22:12:14Z lottaquestions: no problem, its actually the source from the book Practical Common Lisp. Here is my change to playlist.lisp: https://pastebin.com/9rPtGkBB
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2020-02-13T23:05:05Z pjb: lottaquestions: Undefined function id3-p ; I don't find it in the id3v2 system I have …
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2020-02-13T23:07:07Z pjb: and there's no com.gigamonkeys.id3v2 system in quicklisp. System "com.gigamonkeys.id3v2" not found.
2020-02-13T23:07:28Z pjb: So please, make it stand alone…
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2020-02-13T23:19:18Z _death: lottaquestions: it expects the stream to be a binary stream, and the code in PCL's id3-p does pass :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) so maybe you forgot it in your copy
2020-02-13T23:19:58Z pjb: lottaquestions: anyways, the problem is in com.gigamonkeys.id3v2:read-id3 which doesn't open the file as a binary file.
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2020-02-14T04:18:00Z uabobbobobo: Hello!
2020-02-14T04:18:54Z no-defun-allowed: Hello uabobbobobo.
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2020-02-14T04:26:29Z uabobbobobo: I'm fooling around with SHOP3 (and automated HTN planner https://shop-planner.github.io). I'm trying to produce a graph (shop3-graph-planner) of a plan as generated from shop3/shop3/examples/rovers/pXX.lisp. I've noticed that (find-plans-stack 'problem1 :plan-tree T :verbose T) produces what seems to be multiple output streams (the plan, plan-tree,
2020-02-14T04:26:29Z uabobbobobo: and a cl-dot graph-object). How do I bind enhanced-plan-tree object?
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2020-02-14T04:37:10Z buffergn0me: uabobbobobo: Do you mean bind the *ENHANCED-PLAN-TREE* variable? If you look at the definition of FIND-PLANS-STACK, that is what :plan-tree keyword does
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2020-02-14T04:43:48Z uabobbobobo: buffergn0me after running plan-tree, how/where do I access *enhanced-plan-tree* ?
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2020-02-14T04:44:33Z uabobbobobo: after running find-plans-stack :plan-tree***
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2020-02-14T04:50:38Z buffergn0me: clhs multiple-value-bind
2020-02-14T04:50:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm
2020-02-14T04:52:02Z buffergn0me: uabobbobobo: Common Lisp functions can return multiple values, that is what you are seeing. The second return value is a list of plan trees
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2020-02-14T04:55:00Z aeth: multiple-value-bind, multiple-value-call, multiple-value-list. And for the opposite: values and values-list
2020-02-14T04:55:19Z aeth: There are a few others that I'm leaving out. Most notably, you can SETF values (on both sides)
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2020-02-14T05:01:32Z uabobbobobo: Very happy to see this! So I'd so something like (setq *dgraph* (multiple-value-bind (x y z) (find-plans-stack 'roverprob :plan-tree T :verbose 3) (list y)))
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2020-02-14T05:01:37Z uabobbobobo: ?
2020-02-14T05:02:34Z uabobbobobo: aeth, yes! I was fiddling around with multiple-value-list and multiple-value-call. Thank you, these are both very helpful
2020-02-14T05:03:12Z LdBeth: uabobbobobo: you cannot assign all returned multiple value to a variable
2020-02-14T05:03:32Z LdBeth: Only the first one is saved and the rest are discarded
2020-02-14T05:04:25Z aeth: unless you do m-v-b or do something like (setf (values x y z) (values 1 2 3))
2020-02-14T05:04:32Z aeth: the distinction is that the latter sets, doesn't return
2020-02-14T05:05:03Z aeth: I'm a bit disappointed that LET didn't have a parallel (let (((values x y z) (values 1 2 3))) ...) to SETF's setting of values. m-v-b shouldn't be necessary and when it nests it can get ugly
2020-02-14T05:05:20Z aeth: It's not the easiest macro to correct, either, because things can get messy
2020-02-14T05:05:28Z uabobbobobo: Hmm.. I'm really starting to like this channel. :-)
2020-02-14T05:05:48Z uabobbobobo: Let me give these ideas some efforts
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2020-02-14T05:08:01Z aeth: in case I was unclear, the LET version doesn't work, but the SETF version does, and I was upset that there wasn't a parallel there like there is for e.g. values-list vs. multiple-value-list
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2020-02-14T05:21:31Z Bike: if you go farther with that you get the idea let should bind places... which someone has written macros for, i remember seeing it on cliki
2020-02-14T05:22:13Z aeth: hmm
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2020-02-14T05:23:08Z aeth: I might have to rethink my "super-let" design
2020-02-14T05:23:46Z Bike: also declarations get even suckier to process.
2020-02-14T05:23:52Z aeth: Well, when I get back to it. One of the reasons I've procrastinated it is because I'd have to write my own Emacs indentation for it because it is essentially designed for flat binding of all of the binding forms, like flet and labels (iirc, consecutive blocks of labels counts as one labels expansion)
2020-02-14T05:24:02Z aeth: And, yes, declarations were the other thing that were a mess!
2020-02-14T05:24:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-02-14T05:24:39Z aeth: Mainly because I'm a bit annoyed at those rare functions where I might have like 5-6 layers of binding nesting if I e.g. have a let, a m-v-b, and a flet
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2020-02-14T05:25:04Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2020-02-14T05:25:58Z Bike: i'd just use one of those dumb nest macros
2020-02-14T05:26:55Z Bike: (defmacro nest ((&rest binds) &body body) (if (null binds) `(progn ,@body) `(,@(first binds) (nest ,(rest binds) ,@body)))), i think that's how it goes
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2020-02-14T05:33:49Z buffergn0me: It sounds like LET should have an equivalent to DEFSETF
2020-02-14T05:36:25Z buffergn0me: That is, make variable binding/destructuring generic, like "lvalues" are generic in Common Lisp assignment
2020-02-14T05:37:47Z buffergn0me: call it LETF
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2020-02-14T06:04:50Z no-defun-allowed: I heard of something similar on Lisp Machine Lisp; how should LETF act with threads though?
2020-02-14T06:05:09Z no-defun-allowed: And would DEFLETF need a second function to revert the changes?
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2020-02-14T06:07:19Z buffergn0me: no-defun-allowed: I am not sure I follow. Destructuring is non-destructive, and you would be binding either lexical or dynamic variables.
2020-02-14T06:07:51Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: LETF looks like a misspelling of LEFT... my brain can't handle it
2020-02-14T06:08:10Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: why would it delete?
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2020-02-14T06:08:19Z aeth: are we talking about unwind-protect levels of functionality?
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2020-02-14T06:13:00Z no-defun-allowed: Hm, I was thinking like (letf (((car x) y)) ...), which in my mind would RPLACA X then RPLACA it back.
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2020-02-14T06:13:29Z aeth: oh
2020-02-14T06:13:40Z aeth: So it would need unwind-protect in that case
2020-02-14T06:13:42Z trittweiler: LETF is getting the existing value of a place, setting it to a new value, and the resetting it to the old value in the cleanup form of an unwind-protect.  Obviously not thread-safe. The only way to make this thread-safe is if every place goes through another level of indirection (where the thread-local value would sit)
2020-02-14T06:14:55Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: I can see the use of that sort of functionality, but you're almost reinventing dynamic/special variables at that point.
2020-02-14T06:15:56Z no-defun-allowed: I don't disagree.
2020-02-14T06:17:50Z buffergn0me: I guess I picked the wrong name. I did not mean generic place binding, just a generic way to describe destructuring into variable bindings.
2020-02-14T06:18:04Z no-defun-allowed: Oh, the other way around.
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2020-02-14T06:49:02Z uabobbobobo: What does this output mean? (NIL (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQ :COUNT 108 {1001B70FC3}>)) ?
2020-02-14T06:51:00Z ebrasca: uabobbobobo: list with 2 elements?
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2020-02-14T06:51:49Z uabobbobobo: Primarily: #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQ :COUNT 108 {1001B70FC3}>
2020-02-14T06:52:23Z ebrasca: It is some hash table
2020-02-14T06:53:01Z uabobbobobo: How do I access it?
2020-02-14T06:53:23Z buffergn0me: clhs gethash
2020-02-14T06:53:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_gethas.htm
2020-02-14T06:53:31Z White_Flame: (gethash <key> (second *)) where * refers to the previous return value at the repl
2020-02-14T06:53:58Z White_Flame: if you have alexandria loaded, it has functions to convert hashtables into alists so you can dump the contents pretty easily
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2020-02-14T06:55:45Z White_Flame: oh wait, that would be (first (second *)), since the hashtable is in a 1-element sublist of the returned list
2020-02-14T06:57:10Z buffergn0me: uabobbobobo: If you are using SLIME, you can also right click Inspect
2020-02-14T06:57:26Z uabobbobobo: What is {1001B70FC3} ? what is :test? what is :count?
2020-02-14T06:57:35Z uabobbobobo: buffergn0me, I'm using sly, but in emacs -nw
2020-02-14T06:58:19Z beach: uabobbobobo: The first thing is probably the address.
2020-02-14T06:58:36Z beach: The :test is what you give to MAKE-HASH-TABLE.
2020-02-14T06:58:52Z beach: And I am guessing :count is the number of items in the table.
2020-02-14T06:59:21Z White_Flame: anything wrapped in #< ... > is not a readable literal; it's a print-only form of some internal structure
2020-02-14T07:00:04Z White_Flame: and yeah, the braces hold an "identity" field which is usually the current address (GC can move things around)
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2020-02-14T07:00:26Z uabobbobobo: Oh I see. In order to access that internal structure, I need to bind the results to a variable I define?
2020-02-14T07:00:36Z White_Flame: unfortunately, hashtables don't have a literal syntax in standard CL
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2020-02-14T07:01:06Z White_Flame: it's just a value; whether you store it into a variable or use it inline doesn't change anything
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2020-02-14T07:06:45Z buffergn0me: uabobbobobo: (loop for x being the hash-key of *hash-table* collect x) to get the keys of the hash table
2020-02-14T07:06:46Z ebrasca: uabobbobobo: It is already bind if is last 3
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2020-02-14T07:07:13Z ebrasca: * for last value in repl
2020-02-14T07:07:29Z ebrasca: and ** ***
2020-02-14T07:07:46Z ebrasca: for second and 3
2020-02-14T07:09:01Z uabobbobobo: ebrasca, whoa... That's might useful!!!
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2020-02-14T07:09:11Z uabobbobobo: mighty even :-)
2020-02-14T07:09:36Z uabobbobobo: buffergn0me this is like a "list-comprehension" ?
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2020-02-14T07:12:13Z ebrasca: clhs * ** ***
2020-02-14T07:12:46Z ebrasca: clhs *, **, ***
2020-02-14T07:13:13Z White_Flame: clhs **
2020-02-14T07:13:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v__stst_.htm
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2020-02-14T07:14:34Z splittist: The ELS site says nothing about when registration as an attendee opens, or works. I'm worried I'll miss out in the stampede...
2020-02-14T07:14:47Z splittist: *or how it
2020-02-14T07:14:48Z uabobbobobo: if *pt* is ((NIL (#<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQ :COUNT 108 {1001B70FC3}>))), is this excessive: (car (car (cdr (car (list *pt*)))))
2020-02-14T07:15:45Z White_Flame: (destructuring-bind ((ign (ht))) *pt*   (declare (ignore ign)) ...)
2020-02-14T07:16:19Z White_Flame: is often more readable
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2020-02-14T07:17:26Z buffergn0me: uabobbobobo: LOOP does do list comprehensions, and other things like control flow. It is like an infix programming language inside Common Lisp.
2020-02-14T07:17:57Z White_Flame: although (caadar (list *pt*)) is the shortest way to state direct acccess
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2020-02-14T07:18:05Z White_Flame: (if I have my As and Ds ordered correctly(
2020-02-14T07:18:56Z buffergn0me: uabobbobobo: LIST makes a new list, so (car (list x)) is just x
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2020-02-14T07:24:04Z uabobbobobo: sorry for asking so many idiotic questions.
2020-02-14T07:24:33Z uabobbobobo: I've been needing to ask people about lisp-stuff for years now, and today I'm a growing wizard.
2020-02-14T07:24:44Z uabobbobobo:  Thank you all, I'm so happy to get these things working as well as to learn so many new and nifty things. :-)
2020-02-14T07:25:32Z White_Flame: there's also #clschool, whereas you might sometimes get overcomplex answers here or crowded by larger discussions here
2020-02-14T07:26:11Z White_Flame: (unless you want overly pedantic answers with tons of specifics, in which case this is your place ;) )
2020-02-14T07:27:54Z uabobbobobo: It's taking some time to make sense of what's being shared, but the exploration of ideas, discovery of inner-workings and new features, and the enlightening of my mental bulbs is extremely enjoyable.
2020-02-14T07:28:23Z uabobbobobo: I do imagine that when the channel is a bit busier, keeping-up may become quite the challenege
2020-02-14T07:29:20Z uabobbobobo: Either way, if my questions are okay here - however mundane they may appear to be - I'm assuming it's okay to challenge my own confusion here.
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2020-02-14T11:04:27Z loke`: Oladon: Well, I'm here now.
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2020-02-14T11:09:11Z flip214: splittist: my HR asked me a few times already, too... but I'm convinced that Shinmera will keep us updated ;)
2020-02-14T11:09:36Z Shinmera: I haven't heard back from Didier is all I can say.
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2020-02-14T11:10:36Z Shinmera: splittist: as for how it works, it'll work the same as two years ago; there'll be a registration form on the website and you can pay through credit card directly (via stripe).
2020-02-14T11:10:41Z splittist: Those French jazz musicians!
2020-02-14T11:10:54Z splittist: Shinmera: I look forward to it.
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2020-02-14T11:17:59Z Shinmera: I had to make some changes to it due to new EU regulations
2020-02-14T11:18:20Z Shinmera: I did those a long time ago though and Didier never got around to testing it. I think.
2020-02-14T11:24:47Z Shinmera: Ugh, once again annoyed at the poor support for streams in Lisp (where's my poll/select/etc?)
2020-02-14T11:26:59Z Cymew: I remember seeing that sentiment once in a while, and I remember thinking I see lot of stuff about grey streams and other kind of streams. I don't think I've ever seen it exemplified like that before, mentioning poll/select.
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2020-02-14T11:34:44Z flip214: Shinmera: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo    is a fast non-blocking HTTP server built on top of libev
2020-02-14T11:35:30Z flip214: Shinmera: if you're thinking about high-performance IO, I'm afraid that CL streams are already a major hurdle...
2020-02-14T11:35:40Z flip214: I guess the low-level functions are a better bet
2020-02-14T11:35:45Z no-defun-allowed: (lparallel:psome (lambda (stream) (peek-char stream) stream) streams) ; I am truly sorry for this pretend select.
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2020-02-14T12:00:56Z flip214: mop:slot-definition-readers only works on direct slots, but mop:class-slots returns the effective slots only - which are incompatible. What am I missing here?
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2020-02-14T12:11:29Z Shinmera: flip214: This does not help me for lisp streams.
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2020-02-14T12:16:12Z jackdaniel: Shinmera: at least two implementations have an extension called serve-event, is that what you are looking for? that works fine only for file streams though
2020-02-14T12:16:21Z jackdaniel: just as select and poll do
2020-02-14T12:18:06Z Shinmera: Unfortunately not, but good to know!
2020-02-14T12:19:26Z jackdaniel: writing something working any kind of streams would probably require some kind of busy waiting based on listen
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2020-02-14T12:23:32Z Shinmera: Hmm, listen doesn't seem to work right under Swank. At least (loop until (listen)) seems to just loop forever no matter what I enter.
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2020-02-14T12:26:14Z jackdaniel: swanks input stream is not an interactive-stream afair
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2020-02-14T12:27:26Z Shinmera: then it should always return true.
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2020-02-14T12:28:27Z jackdaniel: according to spec yes. if you want to understand what's going under the hood you need to check swank's gray stream implementation
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2020-02-14T12:28:36Z Shinmera: I guessed so, sigh.
2020-02-14T12:28:40Z jackdaniel: afaik it has some internal buffer which is lazily filled when you call read on the stream
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2020-02-14T12:30:21Z flip214: when using xcml:parse with a cxml-xmls:make-xmls-builder, can I tell it to ignore the whitespace in the XML?
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2020-02-14T13:59:38Z flip214: No package form found while trying to define package-inferred-system lil/interface/monad from file /home/marek/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/lisp-interface-library-20180430-git/interface/monad.lisp
2020-02-14T13:59:42Z flip214:    [Condition of type ASDF/PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM:PACKAGE-INFERRED-SYSTEM-MISSING-PACKAGE-ERROR]
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2020-02-14T14:39:40Z jcowan: Does anyone know why tokens composed of two or more dots are illegal?  No reason is given either in the CLHS or in CLtL1.  If there are a lot, it's hard to read, but no harder than ____________ (as distinct from _____________), both of which are valid symbols.  Certainly ... is not hard to read.
2020-02-14T14:40:43Z jackdaniel: what would (a . b . c) mean? ((cons a b) c) or (cons a (cons b c)) :?
2020-02-14T14:41:29Z beach: jackdaniel: That's not the situation jcowan is referring to.
2020-02-14T14:41:41Z jackdaniel: or maybe (cons (cons a |) (cons  ↄ c))
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2020-02-14T14:41:49Z jackdaniel: hm, no?
2020-02-14T14:41:54Z Bike: i for one would be kind of annoyed to see (.. . ...)
2020-02-14T14:41:56Z jcowan: jackdaniel: I mean (let ((... 32) ...)
2020-02-14T14:42:09Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks
2020-02-14T14:42:21Z jackdaniel: did you notice how I've ripped the b letter in the last example? :-)
2020-02-14T14:42:34Z jcowan: Of course such names can be used tastelessly, but why go to the trouble of forbidding them specially when all-underscore names are not.
2020-02-14T14:42:55Z jcowan: ?
2020-02-14T14:43:08Z Bike: well, underscores aren't as important a part of the syntax, they're just constituents
2020-02-14T14:43:10Z dlowe: maybe some ancient system choked on them
2020-02-14T14:43:20Z _death: I think (a . b . c) used to have meaning (hunks)
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2020-02-14T14:43:23Z Bike: wheeas dots are for conses as well as numbers
2020-02-14T14:43:33Z jcowan looks in the maclisp manual
2020-02-14T14:43:38Z Bike: probably not any super important reasons, though
2020-02-14T14:44:05Z _death: http://www.maclisp.info/pitmanual/hunks.html
2020-02-14T14:44:38Z _death: so (a . b . c .)
2020-02-14T14:44:38Z scymtym: note that only two or more /unescaped/ dots are illegal
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2020-02-14T14:44:48Z jackdaniel: '|...|
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2020-02-14T14:47:32Z jcowan: Yes, hunks are interesting.  The syntax chapter of the Pitmanual, however, only explains the special cases, not the defaults.
2020-02-14T14:47:41Z jackdaniel: (a joke) multiple dots may mean multiple zeros, invoke (format t "~0,0f~0,0f~0,0f" 0.0 0.0 0.0) for instance ;)
2020-02-14T14:49:24Z pjb: jcowan: It's just that the standard reader doesn't parse this syntax, and there's no easy way to read the dot.  It's not a first class lisp object!  It's pure syntax.  To be able to read several dots, a user program would have to implement a reader macro for #\(, and cannot use just READ or READ-DELIMITED-LIST.
2020-02-14T14:49:58Z pjb: jcowan: moreover, the standard leaves it to implementations to provide meaning for multiple dots, as well as multiple colons.
2020-02-14T14:50:20Z pjb: (foo . bar . baz) foo::bar::baz  or foo:::bar could mean something, implementation dependent.
2020-02-14T14:51:03Z pjb: (foo .. bar) and (foo ... bar) could also mean something, implementation dependent.
2020-02-14T14:51:30Z pjb: Note that you could also write a reader macro for #\(, that would read them eg. as ranges, or something else.
2020-02-14T14:51:51Z pjb: (1 .. 5) -> (1 2 3 4 5)    #(1 .. 5) -> #(1 2 3 4 5)
2020-02-14T14:51:56Z _death: don't schemes use them in hygienic macros?
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2020-02-14T14:52:06Z pjb: (1 .. 5 11 .. 15) -> (1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 14 15)
2020-02-14T14:52:13Z pjb: _death: scheme uses ...
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2020-02-14T14:57:14Z jcowan: AFAICT the CLHS is silent about such tokens: they are not potential numbers, and they are not required to be symbols, but every token is a symbol or number, so that says to me that they are invalid.
2020-02-14T14:58:14Z jcowan: _death: ... is used in a limited context in macros, but is otherwise an ordinary identifier, as are all other all-dots symbols other than the consing dot.
2020-02-14T15:00:03Z _death: jcowan: so maybe they wanted to reserve ... for the possibility of future CL extension.. if you use a nonstandard readtable as pjb suggests, it's easy to allow that
2020-02-14T15:00:40Z Odin-: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_cc.htm
2020-02-14T15:01:29Z jcowan: Odin-: Thanks, that's definitive.  So reading .. etc. has a defined behavior and can't be extended by an implementation.
2020-02-14T15:02:06Z Odin-: At least not using the standard readtable. Aren't all bets off once you start messing with that?
2020-02-14T15:02:38Z jackdaniel: they are
2020-02-14T15:03:34Z jcowan: Sure.  If you change the readtable, then making your favorite CL also accept Algol 60 is just a SMOP.
2020-02-14T15:03:55Z scymtym: it says "If a token …" which implies that the characters are not interpreted under the control of a reader macro
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2020-02-14T15:04:44Z Odin-: Reader macros happen before tokenisation, so they can make the token vanish.
2020-02-14T15:05:48Z scymtym: yes, and then 2.3.3 does not apply and thus is not violated is what i'm thinking
2020-02-14T15:06:34Z pjb: jcowan:  readiing .. has no definde behavior, and CAN be extended by an implementation.
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2020-02-14T15:07:05Z pjb: Well, it has the defined behavior of signaling an error if the implementation doesn't extend it: (read-from-string "..") #| ERROR: Reader error on #<string-input-stream  :closed #x3020028BEA7D>: Illegal symbol syntax in "..". |#
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2020-02-14T15:08:06Z pjb: or  (read-from-string "..") -> #<anwer-to-your-philosophical-question 42>
2020-02-14T15:08:35Z Odin-: Isn't the initial readtable required to be equivalent to the standard readtable?
2020-02-14T15:08:37Z pjb:                                      ^ implementation specific extension.  This one has a mind reader attached.
2020-02-14T15:08:44Z pjb: Odin-: nope :-(
2020-02-14T15:08:59Z Odin-: Then what does "conforms to standard syntax" mean?
2020-02-14T15:09:03Z _death: in cl-su-ai Steele writes "I find I can't easily write myself something akin to READ-DELIMITED-LIST that handles dotted lists because of the problem of recognizing all-dots tokens.  PEEK-CHAR can only peek one ahead, so I can't tell whether there is a space after a dot before calling READ recursively." .. there are responses mentioning the issue more generally
2020-02-14T15:09:13Z pjb: Odin-: adding (setf *readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) to your rc file.
2020-02-14T15:09:27Z Odin-: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_aac.htm <-- Specifically, here.
2020-02-14T15:10:16Z pjb: Hmm. Conforms to the standard syntax, but can be distinct frmo the standard readtable !
2020-02-14T15:10:20Z Bike: it means that altering the initial readtable doesn't change the standard readtable
2020-02-14T15:10:21Z Bike: i think
2020-02-14T15:10:26Z pjb: If it's distinct, how can it conform to the standad syntax?
2020-02-14T15:10:32Z Odin-: Yeah, you're allowed to change it.
2020-02-14T15:10:49Z pjb: This is contradictory, so it's meaningless.
2020-02-14T15:10:53Z splittist: _death: fascinating
2020-02-14T15:11:08Z Bike: and you can always call (copy-readtable nil) to get a new copy of the standard readtable
2020-02-14T15:11:09Z pjb: The fact is that in ccl, in clisp, and probably other implementations, the initial readtable contains non-standard reader macros.
2020-02-14T15:11:20Z _death: specifically, Moon says "How about a way (a special variable?) to turn off the somewhat silly restriction that you can't have a symbol named .?"
2020-02-14T15:11:39Z pjb: ccl has #/ #_
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2020-02-14T15:12:20Z pjb: _death: yes. Just implement your own reader with that way.
2020-02-14T15:12:59Z _death: pjb: sure.. this is from cl-su-ai, wrt standard syntax
2020-02-14T15:13:56Z pjb: _death: it's a little complex, since the internal data structure of the lisp reader is a sequence of pairs (character character-trait). There are several ways to represent it.  One would have to define an agreed API, or a specific representation for a token to lisp-object parametrable function.
2020-02-14T15:14:19Z _death: with your own reader you may find it ok to assume greater lookahead
2020-02-14T15:14:33Z pjb: See readtable-parse-token in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp
2020-02-14T15:15:19Z Odin-: pjb: I wonder if the idea is that "standard syntax" means "don't mess with the syntax types", and not "don't define any macro characters".
2020-02-14T15:15:50Z pjb: and https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#L1179
2020-02-14T15:16:08Z Odin-: pjb: Because the section on sharpsign explicitly notes which undefined characters are verboten to the implementation ... implicitly saying that certain ones are fair game.
2020-02-14T15:16:30Z pjb: Odin-: yes, the reasonable interpretation is that the initial readtable contains the standard readtable and only "extends" it, still allowing all valid standard syntax.
2020-02-14T15:16:47Z pjb: Odin-: exact. And Unicode.
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2020-02-14T15:17:10Z pjb: _death: and https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp#L1156
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2020-02-14T15:17:43Z pjb: _death: I wanted to write a CDR to define this API, but never too the time to do it.
2020-02-14T15:17:47Z pjb: +k
2020-02-14T15:18:34Z _death: pjb: cool.. did you use these customization hooks for something specific?
2020-02-14T15:20:33Z Odin-: pjb: Technically the standard only specifies the status of the standard characters, so unless you're going to prohibit a wider range of characters - which the standard very obviously doesn't intend - clearly extension that doesn't conflict with the specified syntax is allowed.
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2020-02-14T15:21:50Z Odin-: Since . is defined as a constituent and not a macro character, I'd say the implementation is _not_ free to define a reader macro on it in the initial readtable.
2020-02-14T15:22:55Z splittist: But it would be a non-standard / extended implementation of the #\( reader macro, for example
2020-02-14T15:23:13Z pjb: _death: cf. readtable-parse-token. All those URLs mean something!
2020-02-14T15:23:47Z pjb: Odin-: exact.  Hence I'd suggest having fun with · instead of .
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2020-02-14T15:24:14Z pjb: (quote (foo · bar · baz)) #| --> (foo · bar · baz) |# works perfectly in all unicode implementation.
2020-02-14T15:24:38Z pjb: Even all 8-bit implementation using iso-8859-1 or iso-8859-15. (char-code #\·) #| --> 183 |#
2020-02-14T15:24:53Z Odin-: pjb: That should be fair game, yes, even to the implementation.
2020-02-14T15:25:13Z Odin-: There's also UTF-32 vs. UTF-16.
2020-02-14T15:25:26Z pjb: ² is in iso-8859-1 too, so (let ((x² (* x x))) (+ (* a x²) (* b x) c))
2020-02-14T15:25:30Z Odin-: ABCL uses UTF-16, and according to the docs so does Allegro. :)
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2020-02-14T15:27:22Z jcowan: Hunk syntax like this is interesting, but separate from my original issue, which was why .. and ... etc. aren't identifiers.  Thanks for the Steele quote, btw.
2020-02-14T15:28:05Z jcowan: UTFs are only relevant at the bit-bashing level: at the character level they implement exactly the same character repertoire.
2020-02-14T15:28:13Z _death: pjb: I meant, did you use readtable-parse-token for something specific.. all these URLs you gave are for the reader implementation, not for user code that makes use of it.. but there is user code in your repo as well, so the answer is yes
2020-02-14T15:28:21Z pjb: jcowan: basically, because of scheme, CL wanted to reserve them for future extensions such as ... like in scheme.
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2020-02-14T15:29:02Z pjb: _death: oh, right.  Somebody used my lisp reader to read lisp source files to generate documentation. They definitely used it to avoid interning symbols as normal symbols.
2020-02-14T15:29:24Z pjb: (and reported a bug too).
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2020-02-14T15:30:06Z pjb: Samium Gromoff
2020-02-14T15:30:20Z pjb: IIRC.
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2020-02-14T15:31:12Z _death: pjb: the "because of scheme" was just my speculation, no evidence
2020-02-14T15:32:28Z Odin-: jcowan: Yes and no. UTF-16 can and does make things complicated for code points above U+FFFF, because if the internal representation is UTF-16, then the lisp-level functions give you surrogates.
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2020-02-14T15:35:29Z splittist: Before we switch into our regular #lispunicode programming, can anyone suggest a replacement key-chord for emacs' kill-region (since it is stolen by the browser through which I am manipulating the terminal on which I am running emacs)?
2020-02-14T15:35:45Z splittist: s/it/C-w/
2020-02-14T15:36:31Z splittist: (Although I must say its absence is making me use ESC C-k a lot more)
2020-02-14T15:37:15Z pjb: kill-region is on C-w, s-x, <S-delete>, <menu-bar> <edit> <cut>
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2020-02-14T15:37:55Z pjb: M-x kill-region RET occasionnaly.
2020-02-14T15:38:13Z splittist: S-delete - of course! thanks
2020-02-14T15:38:40Z pjb: splittist: C-h w kill-region RET
2020-02-14T15:38:50Z splittist: pjb: indeed
2020-02-14T15:39:21Z jmercouris: necessary to provide encoding for cffi:foreign-string-alloc, reccommended?
2020-02-14T15:39:40Z jmercouris: or is cffi:*default-foreign-encoding* OK?
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2020-02-14T15:42:55Z _death: if you don't know, leave it to the special?
2020-02-14T15:43:23Z jcowan: Odin-: If so the implementation is broken.
2020-02-14T15:43:59Z jmercouris: _death: OK
2020-02-14T15:44:06Z jmercouris: I just thought I may explicitly set to UTF-8
2020-02-14T15:44:21Z _death: jmercouris: does the foreign code expect utf-8?
2020-02-14T15:44:26Z pjb: jmercouris: it depends on the foreign code!
2020-02-14T15:44:33Z pjb: jmercouris: read the doc!
2020-02-14T15:44:35Z jmercouris: I write the code...
2020-02-14T15:44:37Z jmercouris: it is User data
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2020-02-14T15:45:37Z jmercouris: but that is a good point, for future thinking
2020-02-14T15:45:40Z Odin-: jcowan: I won't disagree, but that exact brokenness is also in Java, JavaScript, and pervasive in Windows land.
2020-02-14T15:46:00Z _death: you can define your own special jmercouris:*default-foreign-encoding*
2020-02-14T15:47:27Z jcowan: Java at least has character-oriented as opposed to codepoint-oriented methods, and on recent Javas strings in the Latin-1 range are stored 8-bit rather than 16-bit, which makes both sets of APIs equally fast.
2020-02-14T15:49:03Z pfdietz: I have wanted lisps to use adaptive representations that use less space for Latin-1 strings (even if the type is formally (vector character)).
2020-02-14T15:49:47Z Bike: i wrote a thing with lisp utf-8 strings to see if i could, and i could, but linear time random access kinda blows
2020-02-14T15:49:47Z pjb: jmercouris: you write the C or foreign code?
2020-02-14T15:50:08Z pjb: jmercouris: how do you use those strings in C? Don't you call some API expecting some specific encoding?
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2020-02-14T15:51:45Z jmercouris: pjb: No, it is an optional void* user data for a callback
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2020-02-14T15:51:57Z jmercouris: so, I get to write the callback, and then decode my own data I encoded
2020-02-14T15:52:05Z jmercouris: that said, is there a function version of with-foreign-pointer-as-string?
2020-02-14T15:52:11Z jmercouris: AKA, how to convert pointer to string?
2020-02-14T15:52:14Z pjb: Then why do you want to pass a string? Just pass some random refnum.
2020-02-14T15:52:42Z jmercouris: foreign-string-to-lisp?
2020-02-14T15:53:06Z jmercouris: pjb: what is a refnum?
2020-02-14T15:53:17Z jmercouris: I'm trying to pass a key to a hash table
2020-02-14T15:53:55Z pjb: A reference number. A handle in Microsoft.
2020-02-14T15:53:56Z pfdietz: I also want the adaptive representation to work well if the string is "almost" Latin-1.
2020-02-14T15:54:09Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, a key to a hash-table. Just use a fixnum.
2020-02-14T15:54:12Z pfdietz: (has a few characters that are not)
2020-02-14T15:54:25Z jmercouris: pjb: fixnum would would work...
2020-02-14T15:54:38Z jmercouris: either way, there would be no performance benefit to fixnum
2020-02-14T15:54:51Z pjb: simplicity in the API.
2020-02-14T15:55:37Z jmercouris: maybe, I was thinking about gensym'ing symbols in some package to store some data
2020-02-14T15:55:42Z jmercouris: instead of using a hash table, not sure though
2020-02-14T15:56:18Z jmercouris: I'm not sure how bad of a idea it is (defparameter x (make-hash-table)) in a top level library form...
2020-02-14T15:56:48Z _death: you likely want defvar..
2020-02-14T15:56:49Z pjb: jmercouris: for example: https://github.com/informatimago/patchwork/blob/2cc6e94929d47a5b4ac8a2d136cba4c264378146/src/pw-lib/cl-midi/pw-midi.lisp#L421
2020-02-14T15:56:58Z jmercouris: ah, yes, defvar is what I meant
2020-02-14T15:57:01Z jmercouris: the sentiment still stands
2020-02-14T15:57:28Z jmercouris: pjb: find = slow
2020-02-14T15:57:32Z jmercouris: pjb: it is simpler though
2020-02-14T15:57:43Z jmercouris: there are many callbacks taking place here, and I want absolutely 0 performance penalty
2020-02-14T15:58:28Z pjb: jmercouris: if you can manage the range of your refnums, you can use a vector instead of a hash-table.
2020-02-14T15:58:46Z pjb: jmercouris: this is the advantage of using small integers as handles. Like unix file descriptors.
2020-02-14T15:59:17Z jmercouris: ... hm now that is an interesting idea
2020-02-14T16:01:29Z jmercouris: how to make pointer to integer...?
2020-02-14T16:01:44Z _death: cffi:make-pointer
2020-02-14T16:02:03Z _death: well, maybe you meant something else
2020-02-14T16:02:16Z pjb: (cffi:pointer-address (cffi:make-pointer 42)) #| --> 42 |#
2020-02-14T16:02:18Z _death: an integer need not have an address..
2020-02-14T16:02:41Z jmercouris: Yes, I get that, but I'm expected to supply a pointer
2020-02-14T16:03:24Z jmercouris: it is void* that I get to supply as user data
2020-02-14T16:04:05Z pjb: (let ((object (make-hash-table))) (values object (cffi:make-pointer (read-from-string (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:object-identity object))))) #| --> #<hash-table :test eql size 0/60 #x302002B1820D> ; #<A Foreign Pointer #x302002B1820D> |#
2020-02-14T16:04:18Z _death: in theory some platforms may take issue with arbitrary integers as addresses
2020-02-14T16:04:22Z Bike: you can use with-foreign-object to stack allocate an integer, if t hat's what you mean?
2020-02-14T16:04:33Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:object-identity (cons 'a 'd)) #| --> "#x302002B3E883" |#
2020-02-14T16:04:36Z jmercouris: What does it mean to stack allocate an integer?
2020-02-14T16:04:41Z jmercouris: allocate an integer on the stack?
2020-02-14T16:04:44Z pjb: jmercouris: yes.
2020-02-14T16:04:45Z Bike: well, yes.
2020-02-14T16:04:48Z Bike: like an auto variable in C.
2020-02-14T16:04:56Z pjb: jmercouris: works nicely for fixnum, less so for bignums.
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2020-02-14T16:05:14Z jmercouris: _death: which platforms?
2020-02-14T16:05:20Z jmercouris: you think I should actually make a pointer to an integer..?
2020-02-14T16:05:20Z _death: it's unlikely that you want to stack allocate it.. since that pointer will likely be stashed somewhere and passed back at a different time
2020-02-14T16:05:52Z pjb: _death: as long as you don't dereference them, it should be ok.
2020-02-14T16:06:01Z _death: jmercouris: basically make-pointer will be ok.. what pjb said
2020-02-14T16:06:16Z pjb: jmercouris: of course: (cffi:make-pointer (expt 2 100)) #| ERROR: The value 1267650600228229401496703205376 is not of the expected type (unsigned-byte 64). |#
2020-02-14T16:06:42Z jmercouris: OK, then I won't stress about it
2020-02-14T16:06:53Z jmercouris: that is quite a few... calls :-D
2020-02-14T16:07:08Z _death: pjb: that's why I said in theory.. there are architectures that will care, but x86/amd64 are quite lenient
2020-02-14T16:09:38Z _death: also, providing an actual lisp object's address would be worse, then you have to worry about pinning
2020-02-14T16:10:28Z _death: but you could (cffi:foreign-alloc :char :count 0) I suppose
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2020-02-14T16:35:01Z jmercouris: pjb: I ended up going with the small list in the end
2020-02-14T16:35:17Z jmercouris: pjb: I ended up going with the small list in the end
2020-02-14T16:35:44Z jmercouris: _death: maybe I do that
2020-02-14T16:35:50Z jmercouris: I see if it actually ends up being a problem
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2020-02-14T16:44:37Z jmercouris: how to get function body from symbol OR lambda?
2020-02-14T16:45:08Z jmercouris: I want the user to be able to invoke my function (defun my-fun (some-fun) ...) (my-fun (lambda (xyz) ...)) or (my-fun #'potato)
2020-02-14T16:46:06Z jmercouris: I want to store the lambda or potato in some variable
2020-02-14T16:46:12Z jmercouris: actually, specifically a slot of a struct
2020-02-14T16:46:16Z beach: clhs funcall
2020-02-14T16:46:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm
2020-02-14T16:46:33Z jmercouris: I know of funcall
2020-02-14T16:46:36Z jmercouris: I want to save the value of the body
2020-02-14T16:46:44Z jmercouris: so that I can invoke it at a later time
2020-02-14T16:46:54Z beach: What "body"?
2020-02-14T16:47:03Z jmercouris: you know, maybe I'm just saying nonsense here
2020-02-14T16:47:23Z jmercouris: what I want to do is (make-my-struct :function my-fun) within the body
2020-02-14T16:47:25Z jmercouris: will that work?
2020-02-14T16:47:32Z jmercouris: I guess I don't see why it wouldnt
2020-02-14T16:47:42Z beach: It will.
2020-02-14T16:47:50Z beach: But there is no "body" involved here.
2020-02-14T16:48:03Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm quite tired :-)
2020-02-14T16:48:11Z jmercouris: I started overthinking this and thinking gibberish or so
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2020-02-14T16:53:31Z pjb: jmercouris: see Image Based Development http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2020-02-14T16:53:48Z pjb: jmercouris: (you need to save the source yourself).
2020-02-14T16:54:11Z pjb: clhs function-lambda-expression
2020-02-14T16:54:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2020-02-14T16:54:14Z pjb: jmercouris: sinon ^
2020-02-14T16:54:18Z pjb: s/sinon/otherwise/
2020-02-14T16:54:20Z jmercouris: that is way more than I need to do :-D
2020-02-14T16:55:14Z _death: another kind of image based development: https://i.imgur.com/piCKqJd.png the image tells how to develop
2020-02-14T16:55:19Z pjb: jmercouris: if you want the function object, of course, just (symbol-function 'symbol)  or (function fname).
2020-02-14T16:55:46Z pjb: _death: :-)
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2020-02-14T19:32:17Z ted_wroclaw: Hey guys.  Is anyone going to the European Lisp Symposium?
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2020-02-14T19:39:52Z rpg: If someone around can set the topic, would you mind mentioning that I have just released ASDF 3.3.4, a bug fix release?
2020-02-14T19:40:20Z Xach: rpg: that kind of thing is not put in the topic any more.
2020-02-14T19:40:28Z Xach: But thank you for the news!
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2020-02-14T19:40:46Z rpg: Xach: I'm afraid it's been a while since I spent much time here... Too busy!
2020-02-14T19:41:42Z rpg: Xach: BTW, Mark E and I are going to have a conversation about how to improve the way ASDF and QL work together. I gather you talked about it at ELS.
2020-02-14T19:41:52Z rpg: or ... no, I meant the SBCL party
2020-02-14T19:43:13Z Xach: I have one main problem that I can't figure out
2020-02-14T19:44:40Z Xach: And that's, as a third party, establishing some environment around the compilation of a system based on some property of the system, without interfering with any first-party stuff.
2020-02-14T19:44:48Z Xach: so conventional methods are right out
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2020-02-14T19:45:51Z p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
2020-02-14T19:46:11Z rpg: Xach: the key thing to remember is that ASDF is *not* hierarchical, so that wrapping PERFORM on, say, LOAD-OP, on the system will not work -- that will only wrap post-processing.  I think Fare made a kind of clunky method for dealing with this.  Let me have a quick look.
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2020-02-14T19:49:07Z rpg: Xach: There's an `around-compile-hook`
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2020-02-14T19:52:20Z rpg: Xach: see https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-file-compilation
2020-02-14T19:53:44Z rpg waits while the "your message to implementation development list awaits moderator approval" emails flood in.  Would it really hurt so badly to add me to the accept list?
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2020-02-14T20:08:39Z Xach: rpg: i can't add methods
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2020-02-14T20:14:42Z pfdietz: You could act like you can, though.  I hear this is called "method acting".
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2020-02-14T20:16:21Z jackdaniel: congrats on a new release
2020-02-14T20:17:56Z Xach: pfdietz: vigorous boo
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2020-02-14T21:00:07Z rpg: Xach: Sorry -- I was away and my laptop went to sleep. Are you still there.
2020-02-14T21:01:16Z rpg: Reading the ASDF manual, this hook is something you use like a hook in emacs-lisp, rather than a generic function to which you add methods.
2020-02-14T21:02:02Z rpg: If you are still there, I'll have a deeper look.
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2020-02-14T21:25:40Z Xach: rpg: is it meant for system authors to use?
2020-02-14T21:26:44Z rpg: Xach: Yes, it is.  But using it correctly seems to assume that you know how `uiop:compile-file*` works and how the perform method interacts with it.  That's why I was offering to help you navigate the issue.  Also, I'd like to know for personal use and to give an example.
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2020-02-14T21:29:05Z Xach: rpg: i am not the system author. i am a third party (a system loader)
2020-02-14T21:29:37Z Xach: i wannt to have verbose loading in some contexts and silent loading in others. the preference depends on a property of the system.
2020-02-14T21:30:31Z rpg: Xach: I think one might be able to get that done by interfering with the around-compile-hook, but you might have to do some checking in there.
2020-02-14T21:30:56Z Xach: I don't want to mess with system properties set up by a system author.
2020-02-14T21:31:53Z rpg: I think you could write a method on AROUND-COMPILE-HOOK, but it would have to *return* an AFTER-COMPILE-HOOK, and one that would wrap around anything put there by the user.
2020-02-14T21:32:59Z rpg: So probably an :AROUND method that would first CALL-NEXT-METHOD, catch the return, and then give back either your THUNK or your THUNK applied to the THUNK returned by CALL-NEXT-METHOD.
2020-02-14T21:33:38Z Xach: What would the method specialize on?
2020-02-14T21:35:13Z rpg: Xach: There are no :AROUND methods already there, so you could just handle any ASDF:COMPONENT, if you have a way to look at an arbitrary component (possibly by looking at its parent), and decide whether you want to meddle with it.
2020-02-14T21:36:24Z Xach: Hmm
2020-02-14T21:37:52Z Xach: rpg: I'll give that a try, thanks. I worry about clashes if someone else wants to do the same thing.
2020-02-14T21:38:43Z Xach: not literally the same, but use the same gf for some purpose
2020-02-14T21:39:04Z rpg: Xach: Yeah, I hear you about that.  You'd be really busting the API, and doing a thing that no one just building a system should be doing, though.
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2020-02-14T21:40:50Z Xach: it sounds much more likely to do what i want than anything i've heard about before, so thank you very much, can't wait to mess with it.
2020-02-14T21:41:00Z rpg: TBQH, I don't fully grok what this thunk is supposed to do.  Reading the code, it looks like ASDF normally FUNCALL's compile-file*, and what you do is write a function that replaces FUNCALL, so setting up whatever context you want, and (probably) then calling FUNCALL.  But I have never done this myself, so you'd have to take that with a grain of salt.
2020-02-14T21:41:57Z rpg: Xach: Great.  Please drop me a line and let me know how it goes.  If it works for you, I'd like to learn from what you've done, and if it doesn't, I can help you figure out what's going wrong.
2020-02-14T21:44:54Z Xach: rpg: the context is that i'd like to suppress a lot of output for quicklisp-provided systems, and don't suppress it for other systems, to get rid of the problem that your code has warnings and other stuff you don't know about.
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2020-02-14T21:48:00Z rpg: Just out of curiosity, how do you know when a system is provided by quicklisp and when not?
2020-02-14T21:55:47Z Odin-: He looks at the list of things he has to build, I suppose.
2020-02-14T21:59:03Z rpg does 3 Stooges eye-poke to Odin- 
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2020-02-14T22:01:27Z Odin-: :D
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2020-02-14T22:07:06Z Shinmera: rpg: You can look at the system source directory and check if it's within ql's dist directory.
2020-02-14T22:07:40Z rpg: Shinmera: woof.  That's nasty.
2020-02-14T22:08:07Z rpg: Probably something you would want to memoize, if that check has to be done for every operation x component pair.
2020-02-14T22:08:33Z Xach: One easy way is to establish a dynamic table that is populated by the quicklisp system-definition search function as it returns things.
2020-02-14T22:09:02Z Xach: since it does not use the asdf system search at all.
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2020-02-14T22:11:11Z rpg: Yes, that sounds better!  I was trying to figure out if you could have a quicklisp-system-mixin, and use ensure-class and change-class.  That would be simpler to integrate with method dispatch, but would probably involve considerable hair
2020-02-14T22:11:39Z Xach: yes, and i don't to modify systems
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2020-02-15T00:01:18Z Oladon: loke`: hehe, thanks -- I ended up getting _something_ working, so just in the "tweaking" phase now. If whatever you were doing with detach-socket is public, I'd love to take a look
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2020-02-15T01:19:34Z thrashdin: hi a quick question
2020-02-15T01:19:43Z thrashdin: quoting myself here
2020-02-15T01:19:47Z thrashdin: acsessing slots of a class within the class definitionI wanna know if thats possible or not ( I think not)
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2020-02-15T02:03:01Z pjb: thrashdin: not really.
2020-02-15T02:03:18Z pjb: thrashdin: what do you really want to do?
2020-02-15T02:04:10Z pjb: thrashdin: note that classes don't contain code. Only generic functions have methods that contain code.  So accessing the slot of a class or of an instance in a defclass form doesn't make a lot of sense.
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2020-02-15T02:17:20Z Xach: thrashdin: not
2020-02-15T02:20:00Z Xach: thrashdin: you usually access slots in methods of the (re)initialization protocol generic functions.
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2020-02-15T02:39:27Z aeth: I tend to treat CL as more of a Java sort of thing (don't access slots directly) than Python (access slots directly). It's not as annoying as Java because the getters/setters are automatic so there's not a lot of boilerplate. This is a case where I'd have a bit of boilerplate, though. You can do fancy things with slots using the meta-object protocol (MOP), but if you do that, then you're going to lose all weekend learning about it just to w
2020-02-15T02:39:43Z aeth: just to write 12 lines.
2020-02-15T02:41:36Z aeth: i.e. I don't know what you want to do, but I'd probably wrap slot access in methods and require the use of those methods, assuming that it can't just be done in the DEFMETHOD INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER constructor of the class
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2020-02-15T04:04:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-15T06:53:22Z elderK: Guys, is there a way to have nested loops with LOOP such that the variable def/stepping is after the say, body, (when, etc.)?
2020-02-15T06:53:31Z elderK: Or do I really have to have a nested (loop ...)?
2020-02-15T07:03:38Z beach: Not sure what you mean, but if you need nested loops, you need a LOOP inside LOOP.
2020-02-15T07:05:51Z beach: In other words, every clause is going to be executed at most once in each iteration of a LOOP.
2020-02-15T07:06:26Z beach: Is it problematic for you to have a LOOP inside a LOOP?
2020-02-15T07:08:32Z elderK: beach: No. I just thought there might be a way to do it without nesting.
2020-02-15T07:08:47Z elderK: I will have to used "named", as the subloop needs to escape from the entire thing
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2020-02-15T07:14:14Z elderK: Is there like, a style guide for indenting LOOPs?
2020-02-15T07:16:47Z no-defun-allowed: SLIME should indent it correctly.
2020-02-15T07:18:51Z no-defun-allowed: An oversimplification would be that you start with everything indented just to the right of the LOOP symbol, then every conditional body form is indented in two spaces.
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2020-02-15T07:31:47Z beach: elderK: You need the slime-indentation contribution.
2020-02-15T07:32:06Z beach: It does a very good job.
2020-02-15T07:37:13Z elderK: beach: I'm afraid I still don't use Emacs. Still hacking away using SlimV.
2020-02-15T07:37:35Z elderK: Perhaps I should learn to read Emacs Lisp so that I can decipher the rules from the indentation contribution
2020-02-15T07:55:17Z beach: Oh dear.
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2020-02-15T08:29:46Z elderK: Indeed :)
2020-02-15T08:29:49Z elderK: It's good to be back here.
2020-02-15T08:29:58Z elderK: You have all been so kind to me over time, and have taught me so much.
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2020-02-15T08:36:31Z beach: elderK: Welcome back.
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2020-02-15T09:31:03Z francogrex: Hi all. I am using emacs inferior-lisp to run CL interatively in emacs. however I am creating a game and would like at a certain point to clear the emacs buffer where my lisp is running. I could execute the emacs command (erase-buffer) from emacs e.g. M-x erase-buffer... but can i do it from inside the CL program itself?
2020-02-15T09:31:46Z francogrex: you know like (run-program bla bla) or something similar? need to execute the elisp command from inside common lisp?
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2020-02-15T10:02:32Z Nilby: francogrex: It's probably best not to do this. If you are making a game with terminal effects like clearing the screen, it's best to use a terminal library like cl-charms and run in the terminal. If it's just for you the developer, it's best to just do it on the emacs side with a elisp. BUT, if you run slime instead of inferior-lisp there is swank:eval-in-emacs, which could do something like that. Note that lisp programmers might be
2020-02-15T10:02:32Z Nilby: upset if your game erased their buffer without asking.
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2020-02-15T11:15:26Z francogrex: ok thanks for terminal advice. I will use (format t "~A[H~@*~A[J" #\escape)
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2020-02-15T15:48:59Z jmercouris: how to convert generalized boolean -> boolean?
2020-02-15T15:50:17Z _death: (if x t nil)
2020-02-15T15:50:23Z jmercouris: no function for it?
2020-02-15T15:50:39Z jmercouris: just to make intention more explicit?
2020-02-15T15:50:42Z _death: (defun bool (x) (if x t nil))
2020-02-15T15:50:46Z jmercouris: 11
2020-02-15T15:50:49Z jmercouris: :-D
2020-02-15T15:52:32Z Nilby: also: (and x t)
2020-02-15T15:54:13Z beach: (not (not x))
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2020-02-15T15:55:35Z Nilby: (not (not x)) seems like the conceptually lovely pure functional version
2020-02-15T15:57:09Z Nilby: Just in case T isn't declared constant.
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2020-02-15T16:58:22Z beach: I think I have a version of my paper on representing method combinations that is close to finished.  If anyone feels like reading it, this is your opportunity to appear in the "Acknowledgments" section.  Deadline for submission is in a week or so.  http://metamodular.com/SICL/representing-method-combinations.pdf
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2020-02-15T17:18:09Z tempate: I want to make a function that takes in a list, picks an element at random, removes it from the list and returns it.
2020-02-15T17:18:17Z tempate: I've got under control the get-element-from-list part. What I am not sure about is how to remove it from the list.
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2020-02-15T17:18:59Z tempate: To be clear, I want to alter the inputted list, not to return a list without the chosen element.
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2020-02-15T17:23:05Z beach: clhs delete
2020-02-15T17:23:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2020-02-15T17:23:38Z beach: tempate: You realize that what you want is not possible in general with a function, right?
2020-02-15T17:23:43Z pjb: tempate: then you will have to implement your own function.
2020-02-15T17:23:57Z pjb: tempate: delete doesn't guarantee alteration of the parameter list.
2020-02-15T17:24:13Z tempate: beach: Yes, I do. I was thinking of something more like a macro.
2020-02-15T17:24:17Z beach: tempate: You can't write a function that deletes the first element of a list destructively, for instance.
2020-02-15T17:24:33Z pjb: tempate: (it's true that most implementation, in SOME cases, will mutate the cons chain, but it's far to be the case always.
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2020-02-15T17:24:45Z beach: tempate: But you wrote "I want to make a function...".
2020-02-15T17:25:04Z pjb: (define-modify-macro deletef (item &rest keys) item-delete "Delete the item from the sequence in PLACE.")
2020-02-15T17:25:15Z tempate: beach: oh, right, my bad. Replace "function" for "macro."
2020-02-15T17:26:55Z pjb: (setf *print-circle* t) (let* ((list (list 1 2 3)) (original list)) (deletef list 1) (list original list)) -> ((1 . #1=(2 3)) #1#)
2020-02-15T17:27:01Z pjb: see, no mutation of the original list.
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2020-02-15T17:27:46Z pjb: But deletef is a macro.
2020-02-15T17:28:07Z tempate: Hmmm
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2020-02-15T17:28:50Z tempate: Would it be a more lispy solution to just remove the item from a copy of the list and return both the new list and the chosen element?
2020-02-15T17:28:51Z pjb: Of course, you could write your own delete function that would mutate it.  For example, it could put a NIL in the CDR of the first CONS cell.
2020-02-15T17:29:23Z Nilby: The simple way is to setf and delete: (setf list (delete item list))
2020-02-15T17:29:47Z pjb: tempate: don't think lisp. Think what should my program do so you can sell it for a billion and finance whatever you want (Venus exploration, development of a Lisp OS, a Pacific Island, whatever).
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2020-02-15T17:30:09Z pjb: Nilby: which is what deletef and modify-macro in general are for.
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2020-02-15T17:30:45Z tempate: pjb: fair enough
2020-02-15T17:30:51Z tempate: pjb: Not sure how to proceed anyway
2020-02-15T17:30:58Z Nilby: I know, but in a dependency free fresh REPL.
2020-02-15T17:32:28Z pjb: tempate: well, for your goal function, you have to choices. Either you want to use lisp lists, which don't exist as an ADT, but are merely chains of cons cells, and then you will have to return indeed two values, the extracted element and the new list, or you introduce your own list ADT (eg. a class or a structure that wraps a lisp list), and then you can mutate the list and only return the extracted element.
2020-02-15T17:32:59Z pjb: tempate: in any case, since the list can be empty, you could have no element to return, so returning multiple values including an indicator that the list was empty should be envisaged.
2020-02-15T17:33:29Z pjb: Nilby: have you seen the define-modify-macro form above?
2020-02-15T17:33:51Z pjb: Nilby: oh, right, it needs an intermediary function for the order of arguments.
2020-02-15T17:34:22Z pjb: But in general, they are one-liners, so you can easily type them in at the REPL.
2020-02-15T17:34:27Z tempate: pjb: alright. I'll look into it. Thanks.
2020-02-15T17:35:14Z Nilby: pjb: Yes. That's the elegant way. But wouldn't tell someone who's unfamiliar with delete to do it that way at first.
2020-02-15T17:35:37Z pjb: tempate: an alternative, is to pass a "place" to your function.  If you write a macro, you must mind using get-setf-expansion.  But you can pass a place to a function by way of a closure.
2020-02-15T17:35:58Z pjb: (extract-one list (lambda (new-list) (setf list new-list)))
2020-02-15T17:36:08Z tempate: pjb: I think I'm going to write a class. It'll most likely come in handy in the future.
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2020-02-16T06:17:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-16T10:20:43Z tempate: Can I get tips to improve this piece of code? https://gist.github.com/Tempate/2a05c584e1b29c9c609c90856c566128
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2020-02-16T10:26:30Z beach: tempate: Your indentation seems off.
2020-02-16T10:27:21Z beach: tempate: Your PROGN should be indented 2 spaces, but then, since LET has an implicit PROGN, you don't need it.
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2020-02-16T10:28:30Z beach: You can use with-slots to avoid repeating (slot-value deck 'cards).
2020-02-16T10:28:57Z beach: But then I advise against using slot-value in favor of using a slot accessor.
2020-02-16T10:30:35Z tempate: What's wrong with slot-value?
2020-02-16T10:31:32Z beach: It is very low level.  Usually, you design a data structure around classes and generic functions.  That's known as a "protocol".
2020-02-16T10:31:55Z beach: A protocol is a generalization of an interface in other languages.
2020-02-16T10:32:36Z beach: Just as you don't want to access fields in a structure or class directly, you typically don't want to access Common Lisp slots directly.
2020-02-16T10:32:53Z beach: That's just basic software engineering.
2020-02-16T10:33:02Z beach: But for this small a problem, it won't matter.
2020-02-16T10:33:16Z tempate: oh, I see. Thank you.
2020-02-16T10:33:18Z beach: But you should definitely use WITH-SLOTS.
2020-02-16T10:33:22Z beach: clhs with-slots.
2020-02-16T10:33:22Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for with-slots..
2020-02-16T10:33:24Z beach: clhs with-slots
2020-02-16T10:33:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm
2020-02-16T10:33:51Z tempate: Reading
2020-02-16T10:38:07Z tempate: Changed to: https://gist.github.com/Tempate/2a05c584e1b29c9c609c90856c566128
2020-02-16T10:38:36Z beach: Yes, much better.
2020-02-16T10:39:40Z beach: If you care about performance, using a vector would be better.
2020-02-16T10:40:24Z White_Flame: it would have to use a different algorith, though
2020-02-16T10:40:27Z tempate: At the moment performance is not one of my priorities
2020-02-16T10:40:47Z tempate: It would make more sense to make hit a method, right?
2020-02-16T10:40:48Z beach: White_Flame: Right, you wouldn't use DELETE.
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2020-02-16T10:41:53Z White_Flame: you could add a count to the class to cache the length, so you don't have to recompute it, which would be a fairly easy optimizatin
2020-02-16T10:41:58Z beach: tempate: It would be a generic function, but it might be overkill for this problem.
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2020-02-16T10:43:38Z tempate: what are the differences between C++ classes and Lisp's?
2020-02-16T10:43:50Z tempate: White_Flame: oh, right. Let me try to do that.
2020-02-16T10:45:31Z beach: tempate: Common Lisp classes don't have methods in them.  Encapsulation is accomplished with an orthogonal mechanism known as "packages".
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2020-02-16T10:46:49Z White_Flame: (and packages aren't really "encapsulation" because you can always still poke into them; there's no real data hiding in CL, besides closures (and you can use implementation tools to poke into those, too))
2020-02-16T10:48:15Z tempate: oh, I see
2020-02-16T10:48:31Z tempate: It does sound like an overkill
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2020-02-16T10:56:43Z White_Flame: just for fun, a verbose single-pass version on a list: https://pastebin.com/TRwCBaHw
2020-02-16T10:59:24Z tempate: White_Flame: updated to use a counter: https://gist.github.com/Tempate/2a05c584e1b29c9c609c90856c566128
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2020-02-16T11:00:03Z White_Flame: yep, and you see how optimization tends to make things bigger and less independent
2020-02-16T11:00:07Z White_Flame: (oftentimes)
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2020-02-16T11:00:50Z White_Flame: if some external code munged your list behind the scenes, the prior version would still work, while this would get confused
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2020-02-16T11:01:24Z White_Flame: for initial development, it's advantageous to have code as clear and flexible as possible, even if it's slow
2020-02-16T11:01:36Z White_Flame: putting the screws to it to make it faster tends to come after it's settled down
2020-02-16T11:02:42Z tempate: "Premature optimization: the root and stem of all evils."
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2020-02-16T11:32:00Z jackdaniel: I think that this bon mot is one of few causes of a very sad state of software today
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2020-02-16T11:33:28Z jackdaniel: not that it doesn't have some truth to it, just that people stick to it even when they absolutely shouldn't
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2020-02-16T12:00:12Z beach: jackdaniel: What are you referring to?
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2020-02-16T12:33:38Z jackdaniel: to "premature optiimization is the root of all evil" - efficiency is not a feature which may be implemented aposteriori, it is often a trait of software architecture
2020-02-16T12:34:25Z beach: I see.
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2020-02-16T12:39:10Z beach: And, yes, I agree.
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2020-02-16T13:20:32Z jonatack: Sunday thought: I don't get to use Lisp for my work ATM but this is still my favorite non-work IRC channel... thank you, people. Back to lurking.
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2020-02-16T16:21:39Z momozor: do you guys know how to enable cors with clack?
2020-02-16T16:23:13Z jackdaniel: momozor: you need to customize headers
2020-02-16T16:23:40Z jackdaniel: i.e (200 (:content-type "text/plain" :access-control-allow-origin nil) whatever)
2020-02-16T16:24:52Z momozor: jackdaniel: thank you so much!
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2020-02-16T16:25:58Z jackdaniel: sure
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2020-02-16T21:33:25Z akhetopnu: hello. has anyone here tried to use websocket-driver and send messages to clients from a different thread? It doesn't seem to work. I'm not sure if I'm going crazy or if I'm doing something wrong...
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2020-02-17T00:17:08Z vms14: I cannot declare a variable once I've loaded cl-ncurses
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2020-02-17T00:17:16Z vms14: it says I'm declaring an alien one
2020-02-17T00:17:32Z vms14: how I'm supposed to switch to "normal" declaration or whatever?
2020-02-17T00:17:41Z vms14: Cannot proclaim a ALIEN variable SPECIAL: *COLORS*
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2020-02-17T00:18:09Z vms14: (defparameter *colors* '((red 1) (blue 2) (green 3)))
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2020-02-17T00:18:29Z vms14: the only thing I'm doing is to load cl-ncurses, then create a package and :use ncurses with commonlisp
2020-02-17T00:18:42Z vms14: and try to create that variable
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2020-02-17T00:19:16Z _death: instead of :use, only import the symbols you care about with :import-from
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2020-02-17T00:20:26Z vms14: _death: there isn't another way?
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2020-02-17T00:22:03Z _death: vms14: what happens is that cl-ncurses exports cl-ncurses:*colors* and you attempt to redefine it
2020-02-17T00:22:49Z _death: vms14: luckily, you get an error instead of silently redefining it, so you can either not import it, or choose a different symbol
2020-02-17T00:23:29Z _death: or you can shadow it.. but it's best to just not import symbols you don't care about
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2020-02-17T00:24:42Z vms14: oh lol
2020-02-17T00:24:43Z vms14: ty
2020-02-17T00:24:58Z vms14: I thought I was on some weird state or alike
2020-02-17T00:25:06Z vms14: I'll just use another name, thanks _death
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2020-02-17T00:40:52Z vms14: (let ((i 0)) (mapcar (lambda (color) (init-pair (incf i) color COLOR_BLACK)) (list COLOR_RED COLOR_BLUE COLOR_GREEN)))
2020-02-17T00:41:00Z vms14: there's a better way to do that?
2020-02-17T00:41:08Z vms14: I don't like that let
2020-02-17T00:42:11Z no-defun-allowed: (loop for color in (list +color-red +color-green+ +color-blue+) for i from 0 do (init-pair color i +color-black+))
2020-02-17T00:44:40Z vms14: ty no-defun-allowed, much better
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2020-02-17T01:19:56Z vms14: it is "#\ " part of the ansi standard? or I it's #\Space?
2020-02-17T01:20:06Z vms14: s/I//
2020-02-17T01:21:23Z vms14: which one should I use?
2020-02-17T01:21:29Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, #\Space is standardised as well as some other names.
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2020-02-17T01:22:26Z no-defun-allowed: clhs 13.1.7
2020-02-17T01:22:27Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
2020-02-17T01:22:48Z aeth: I think #\  is standard, too, but obviously it's way less readable (I mean, just look at my line, when I didn't put it in quotes like you did)
2020-02-17T01:25:19Z vms14: thanks to both, I'll use Space for aeth's reason
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2020-02-17T01:26:01Z vms14: although the code won't be much readable anyway
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2020-02-17T01:26:56Z no-defun-allowed: Speaking of which, do people have any strategies for making (foo bar #\)) look less awkward?
2020-02-17T01:26:57Z vms14: https://termbin.com/tobq
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2020-02-17T01:30:09Z vms14: and doesn't work as expected xD now it's putting colors by words, not by characters
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2020-02-17T01:30:48Z vms14: oh wrong paren position
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2020-02-17T01:31:19Z pjb: vms14: what do you expect with this paste?
2020-02-17T01:31:40Z vms14: tell it won't be readable
2020-02-17T01:32:12Z vms14: but if you have corrections, even better
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2020-02-17T02:13:07Z sjl: Xach: is there a way to find the git/hg commit hash for a particular library in a quicklisp dist?
2020-02-17T02:13:43Z sjl: I see a "content-sha1" in releases.txt but that doesn't appear to be the commit hash (I'm guessing it's a SHA of the tarball or something)
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2020-02-17T03:59:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-17T04:05:24Z Nilby: Good morning
2020-02-17T04:06:06Z Nilby: and good morning to all the bots
2020-02-17T04:06:32Z beach: minion: Good morning!
2020-02-17T04:06:34Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
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2020-02-17T04:21:20Z beach: So I take it nobody wants to appear in the Acknowledgments section of this paper: http://metamodular.com/SICL/representing-method-combinations.pdf
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2020-02-17T06:26:32Z no-defun-allowed: It appears that this function definition (rather, the documentation string) prevents C-c C-c from working correctly: https://pastebin.com/h8sHNTzf
2020-02-17T06:31:15Z no-defun-allowed: That appears to compile from (with-locked-box ...) in the documentation string wherever I C-c C-c from, which fails spectacularly.
2020-02-17T06:31:20Z trittweiler: It may be using beginning-of-defun and that works by a crude heuristic
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2020-02-17T06:32:04Z trittweiler: the answer is most likely "don't write docstrings like that", i.e. intend inner code blocks by at least 1 space
2020-02-17T06:32:12Z trittweiler: *indent
2020-02-17T06:32:38Z no-defun-allowed: Sure.
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2020-02-17T06:32:48Z no-defun-allowed: That fixes it then. Thanks.
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2020-02-17T06:57:03Z beach: no-defun-allowed: You can use the trick with #.(format nil "...") so that in the format control you can ignore indented lines.
2020-02-17T06:57:25Z no-defun-allowed: Right.
2020-02-17T06:57:38Z beach: No version of the paper.  Thanks to MetaYan and slyrus for the feedback: http://metamodular.com/SICL/representing-method-combinations.pdf
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2020-02-17T07:57:54Z splittist: no-defun-allowed: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Left-Margin-Paren.html
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2020-02-17T11:39:04Z p_l: beach: well, it would be nice to appear - but that requires actually having done something for it to happen ;)
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2020-02-17T12:00:04Z beach: p_l: Usually, yes.
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2020-02-17T12:17:27Z phoe: beach: about CCL, "Instead it defines an info vector (disguised as a structure)" - CCL tends to do that a real lot. From what I have noticed, a lot of internal structures in CCL are actually tagged vectors, where the tag tells CCL what kind of a structure that is.
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2020-02-17T12:20:26Z p_l: phoe: doesn't that correspond to defining the structure to be of :type vector ?
2020-02-17T12:20:43Z Posterdati: hi
2020-02-17T12:22:09Z phoe: p_l: nope, it's a different trick that CCL uses. The resulting object still prints like a structure type and has its own distinct type.
2020-02-17T12:22:28Z p_l: phoe: AFAIK defstruct with vector type also do so
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2020-02-17T12:22:58Z phoe: p_l: structures that are :TYPE VECTOR print as vectors though, don't they?
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2020-02-17T12:25:10Z phoe: (defstruct (foo (:type vector)) a b c) (type-of (make-foo)) ;=> (SIMPLE-VECTOR 3) on SBCL
2020-02-17T12:25:53Z pjb: As it should be.
2020-02-17T12:26:17Z phoe: agreed
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2020-02-17T12:26:34Z phoe: CCL's internal structures don't behave that way though
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2020-02-17T12:27:06Z p_l: phoe: that sounds like something that is actually left to implementionation
2020-02-17T12:27:11Z p_l: *implementation
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2020-02-17T12:27:37Z p_l: pretty sure it's also the model used by ZetaLisp/LML/LMI/Symbolics, btw
2020-02-17T12:28:12Z phoe: ...oh wait a second though
2020-02-17T12:28:17Z p_l: (implementation of structure with no :type)
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2020-02-17T12:32:34Z phoe: hah! I was only partially right
2020-02-17T12:33:38Z montaropdf: Hello
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2020-02-17T12:34:36Z phoe: There are things called ivectors and gvectors in CCL that are tagged like I described up above - but, amusingly, CCL's method-combination-info objects are neither of them
2020-02-17T12:34:38Z montaropdf: I have some strange configuration problem with my common lisp environement. ~/common-lisp/ is not in the asdf registry and some packages seems missing from quicklisp.
2020-02-17T12:34:47Z phoe: they are just simple vectors.
2020-02-17T12:34:55Z montaropdf: My environement is a fedora 31 and sbcl
2020-02-17T12:35:08Z phoe: montaropdf: missing, what do you mean? did you (ql:update-all-dists)?
2020-02-17T12:35:15Z montaropdf: phoe
2020-02-17T12:35:18Z montaropdf: yes
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2020-02-17T12:35:41Z montaropdf: and ql tell me my list is up to date, but dating from 2019
2020-02-17T12:35:54Z montaropdf: the same with the quicklisp client
2020-02-17T12:36:52Z montaropdf: Message from quicklisp: You already have the latest version of "quicklisp": 2019-12-27.
2020-02-17T12:37:16Z phoe: which packages are missing for you then?
2020-02-17T12:37:18Z montaropdf: Message from the client: The most up-to-date client, version 2020-01-04, is already installed.
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2020-02-17T12:37:47Z phoe: or rather, which systems?
2020-02-17T12:38:31Z montaropdf: phoe: com.informatimago
2020-02-17T12:38:36Z montaropdf: but maybe others
2020-02-17T12:38:46Z phoe: montaropdf: are they included in quicklisp in general?
2020-02-17T12:39:02Z phoe: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=informatimago&type= gives me nothing.
2020-02-17T12:39:19Z montaropdf: according to the README of the repo on github it should be
2020-02-17T12:39:44Z phoe: montaropdf: quicklisp/quicklisp-projects on github is the ultimate source of information for what is included in QL.
2020-02-17T12:40:02Z phoe: since that's the repository that declares all the stuff that is included in a dist
2020-02-17T12:40:06Z montaropdf: I see a commit saying that the system has been removed.
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2020-02-17T12:40:20Z montaropdf: dated of 2016
2020-02-17T12:40:46Z phoe: that would explain it
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2020-02-17T12:41:43Z montaropdf: effectively
2020-02-17T12:42:15Z phoe: so that solves the issue of Quicklisp
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2020-02-17T12:42:23Z phoe: doesn't solve the one of ASDF registry though
2020-02-17T12:42:29Z montaropdf: effectively
2020-02-17T12:43:05Z phoe: on my machine, asdf:*central-registry* ;=> (#P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/quicklisp/")
2020-02-17T12:44:02Z phoe: maybe that's the cause - if you've installed QL, it likely is set to ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2020-02-17T12:44:36Z montaropdf: I just check now and look what I have found: #P"/home/roland/quicklisp/quicklisp/"
2020-02-17T12:44:50Z montaropdf: but yesterday it was not the case :()
2020-02-17T12:45:16Z montaropdf: Maybe calling for an update add the entry.
2020-02-17T12:45:24Z montaropdf: I will have to test that
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2020-02-17T12:50:58Z montaropdf: So, I will add ~/common-lisp/ to the registry from .sbclrc, seems the best to do.
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2020-02-17T13:50:31Z Demosthenex: can someone recommend an xml lib for outputting graphml? i don't need to parse, just output correct xml
2020-02-17T13:50:54Z Shinmera: Plump has an XML mode.
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2020-02-17T13:53:20Z Demosthenex: i thought plump was focused on parsin? i suppose it'd have a method to output somewhere too
2020-02-17T13:53:43Z Shinmera: it has a perfectly serviceable DOM and serializer.
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2020-02-17T13:54:03Z Demosthenex: ooh! plump-sexp looks right!
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2020-02-17T13:58:06Z beach: phoe: Do you know the reason for that?  My guess would be for reasons of bootstrapping, but I am only guessing.
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2020-02-17T13:59:26Z phoe: beach: I do not think so. ivectors and gvectors are used galore even in the bootstrapping process. I think it's just style inconsistency and one could fix easily that someday.
2020-02-17T14:00:15Z phoe could bet about $10 on that.
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2020-02-17T14:00:47Z beach: Hmm.  Maybe it was done before CLOS was part of the implementation?
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2020-02-17T14:01:55Z phoe: Large chunks of the method-combination.lisp file are at least 12 years old - we don't have any earlier history.
2020-02-17T14:01:58Z phoe: So it's possible, yes.
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2020-02-17T14:02:26Z beach: Strange stuff either way.
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2020-02-17T14:02:51Z phoe: But then wait a second
2020-02-17T14:02:55Z phoe: Method combinations are a part of CLOS
2020-02-17T14:03:12Z phoe: So it's hard for MCs to be a part of CLOS and then be there *before* CLOS
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2020-02-17T14:03:38Z beach: Yes, I just meant this style of defining vectors disguised as structures.
2020-02-17T14:03:59Z phoe: Oh, yes, that's for sure
2020-02-17T14:04:06Z beach: It looks like something you may come up with if you don't have standard classes.
2020-02-17T14:04:44Z phoe: Coral/Macintosh/Clozure Common Lisp is an old implementation and I think that's its heritage that we are looking at right now
2020-02-17T14:04:59Z beach: But it is also possible that it is a bootstrapping problem.  If CLOS is "bolted on" the way it is in many Common Lisp implementations, then, at the time you need method combinations, you may not have classes yet.
2020-02-17T14:06:30Z phoe: that's true as well, since CCL has its own bootstrapping process where method combinations are actually loaded close to the end of the process
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2020-02-17T14:26:02Z pjb:  /whoami
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2020-02-17T14:32:22Z |Pirx|: hi
2020-02-17T14:33:24Z phoe: heyyy
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2020-02-17T14:37:11Z Demosthenex: Shinmera: i rapidly imported a sample xml, was there a quick way to dump the sexp object of that?
2020-02-17T14:37:58Z Shinmera: plump-sexp:serialize?
2020-02-17T14:38:17Z Demosthenex: pardon, i thought that went back to text. i'm just trying to examine the innards of the objs returned
2020-02-17T14:38:31Z Shinmera: plump:serialize goes to text
2020-02-17T14:38:41Z Shinmera: you can also just inspect the returned DOM with Slime or what have you
2020-02-17T14:39:07Z Demosthenex: ok, the other module. i did read all the functions in the main doc before asking :P
2020-02-17T14:39:20Z Demosthenex: yeah, ssh withouth readline atm, hurts ;]
2020-02-17T14:39:30Z Shinmera: you can tunnel swank over ssh.
2020-02-17T14:40:15Z Demosthenex: yeah, but i'm on a windoze gaming box. can't get any work done there.
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2020-02-17T14:40:46Z Shinmera: Windows 10 comes with an ssh package pre-installed, if I remember correctly. And portacle is only a download away.
2020-02-17T14:42:02Z montaropdf: pjb: hello, with regards to our discussion about my lisp db project. TBH, I am not sure to have understood what wise man tried to teach me when he says that I was doing my project backward :(
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2020-02-17T14:47:09Z beach: montaropdf: I would have helped you, but I think the entire concept of a database is fishy.  Either you limit yourself to storing simple objects such as numbers and strings, in which case the entire thing seems useless, or else you allow for any Common Lisp object to be store, and then it won't be EQ to its original when you read it back, if the original even exists anymore.
2020-02-17T14:47:28Z beach: to be storeD
2020-02-17T14:48:24Z p_l: beach: seems to work for GemStone/S though
2020-02-17T14:48:37Z montaropdf: beach: A database is a concept, so it doesn't means the storage is a binary file ;)
2020-02-17T14:48:49Z beach: p_l: They must be doing some magic.
2020-02-17T14:49:18Z beach: montaropdf: OK, so it if is all in main memory, then that's much better.
2020-02-17T14:49:29Z p_l: beach: from my understanding, the database part is very low component of the overall image
2020-02-17T14:49:44Z p_l: so their locatives are EQ-comparable
2020-02-17T14:49:50Z p_l: instead of being direct pointers
2020-02-17T14:50:11Z beach: p_l: If it is universal persistence, then that is exactly what I am advocating, as you might know.
2020-02-17T14:50:40Z p_l: beach: it's more complex, because GemStone also had to be pragmatic about it
2020-02-17T14:50:46Z p_l: so transactions, ways to recover, etc.
2020-02-17T14:54:34Z beach: I suspect my brain is to small to understand it.
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2020-02-17T14:54:59Z p_l: it's not the size of the brain, it's the point of view
2020-02-17T14:55:12Z p_l: There's beautiful conceptual simplicity to universal persistence
2020-02-17T14:55:37Z p_l: Though I have to admit I have issues imagining navigating such a system
2020-02-17T14:55:49Z p_l: too alien to what I'm used to
2020-02-17T14:56:18Z montaropdf: What is universal persistence?
2020-02-17T14:56:31Z beach: p_l: I don't see why.  You could always erase part of it when you start up, pretending that there is volatile memory.
2020-02-17T14:56:32Z montaropdf: If I may ask
2020-02-17T14:56:35Z p_l: OTOH, I professionally deal with things like "the machine is gone - how I can ensure continuity"
2020-02-17T14:57:53Z beach: montaropdf: It means that there is no distinction between the stuff you can do with RAM and the stuff you can do with a disk.  It all behaves as if you had random access memory that is persistent as the disk is.
2020-02-17T14:58:24Z beach: montaropdf: Multics had that 50 years ago, and Unix made many generations of developers forget about it.
2020-02-17T14:59:00Z p_l: not just multics, but also the growing divide between speeds of different storages
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2020-02-17T15:00:00Z beach: p_l: You mean that "the growing divide between speeds of different storages" also had it 50 years ago?
2020-02-17T15:00:11Z beach: I'm lost.
2020-02-17T15:01:01Z montaropdf: However, the week-end passes by, so I had time to think about it and to test some cases. I am currently thinking more and more about getting away from my, traditional, table approach to store data, to using sexp trees. I am also targeting small volumes of data, nothing the NSA would be bothered to search in ;)
2020-02-17T15:01:11Z Nilby: Thankfully true universal persistence is there without any effort, now to control it nicely though you need a redesign from processors & L1 cache to offsite backups.
2020-02-17T15:02:15Z p_l: beach: I see it often enough in how it impacts code that deals with just CPU - the multiple levels of caches, how much latency there is. Also how swap became much bigger impact compared to how it used to be, as the difference in speeds between disk storage and memory gone like crazy, not just the latency
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2020-02-17T15:28:24Z Demosthenex: beach: as/400 does that too
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2020-02-17T15:32:48Z beach: So I hear, yes.
2020-02-17T15:33:08Z Nilby: In the old days when I went to open a file, sometimes it would text the "operator" to load a tape. If the operator was me, the system would deadlock.
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2020-02-17T15:39:37Z beach: Heh.
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2020-02-17T18:00:55Z pjb: Then, databases have to deal with KEYS to identify external objects and internalize. For symbols,  the key is the package name and the symbol name.  But for random CLOS objects, it's more complicated: the programmer must specify the keys…  Even for cons cells, or lists, you start to have problems…
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2020-02-17T21:31:29Z akhetopnu: Hello. Has anyone tried using clack + TLS? I don't see any info in the docs clack's docs about it
2020-02-17T21:32:57Z akhetopnu: is the assumed setup reverse proxy tunneling requests/websocket connections to clack and clack just serving everything without encryption?
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2020-02-17T21:39:03Z Shinmera: that's typically a good idea for production anyway.
2020-02-17T21:39:23Z Shinmera: clack supports fcgi too, for a low overhead coupling to your frontend server.
2020-02-17T21:41:42Z akhetopnu: I'm tinkering with clack + hunchentoot right now and I know hunchentoot supports SSL (not sure if they mean literally SSL or maybe TLS too), it's just that I'm not sure if clack can pass through the TLS certificate paths for example
2020-02-17T21:42:33Z akhetopnu: I would like to get encryption all the way from the browser to my server, however if that's not possible then I guess I'll have to settle down for a reverse proxy
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2020-02-17T21:46:25Z Shinmera: often the reverse proxy is on the same machine as your lisp instance, so it doesn't matter.
2020-02-17T21:46:41Z Shinmera: hunchentoot supports ssl via cl+ssl (aka openssl)
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2020-02-17T21:48:14Z Shinmera: dunno how passing certs work, I haven't used clack myself.
2020-02-17T21:49:44Z akhetopnu: i'm trying to setup a (mainly) websocket server (+ http(s) wouldnt hurt to be honest) and clack + hunchentoot seems to be the most 'reliable' way
2020-02-17T21:50:08Z akhetopnu: have you used other common lisp webserver with websockets by any chance?
2020-02-17T21:51:39Z Shinmera: you can setup nginx to do the https websocket handshake and then delegate to your non-https websocket server.
2020-02-17T21:51:54Z Shinmera: I have only used hunchensocket for ws stuff. It was pretty straightforward.
2020-02-17T21:54:10Z Shinmera: The above is how I offer https://shirakumo.github.io/lichat-js/?hostname=chat.tymoon.eu
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2020-02-17T22:07:43Z lottaquestions: Hi all, a few days ago I had issues with running the code from Practical Common Lisp on SBCL. The following link shows some code changes that the author of the book made in order to get the sources to work on a "modern" SBCL: https://github.com/gigamonkey/pcl-practicals/commit/99b6f516bcb764f070eaa45b834f1e6c83742a09
2020-02-17T22:08:41Z lottaquestions: In my case there were some issues reading from a stream, which appear to be fixed in the git commit in the link I provided above
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2020-02-17T22:20:03Z jfb4: lottaquestions: useful link
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2020-02-18T00:16:37Z no-defun-allowed: I don't really know what I'm asking, but how can I change the order in which arguments are used to compute the method list for a generic function?
2020-02-18T00:17:47Z no-defun-allowed: If I have a method with lambda list ((x a) y) and another with (x (y b)), I would want the latter to be used first, but the default appears to use the former first.
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2020-02-18T00:19:17Z no-defun-allowed: Aha, might be :argument-precedence-order.
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2020-02-18T03:23:03Z LdBeth: heloo
2020-02-18T03:23:41Z no-defun-allowed: Hello LdBeth.
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2020-02-18T04:46:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-02-18T04:46:33Z beach: no-defun-allowed: Yes, :ARGUMENT-PRECEDENCE-ORDER.
2020-02-18T04:46:48Z no-defun-allowed: Indeed it is.
2020-02-18T04:46:50Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning beach!
2020-02-18T04:47:58Z patrixl: morning, beach!
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2020-02-18T05:32:37Z vivit: I've had trouble getting quicklisp to work. It installs just fine, but whenever I try to load anything, it tells me that no such system is found.
2020-02-18T05:33:06Z beach: Did you run (ql:register-local-projects)?
2020-02-18T05:33:37Z beach: Or maybe you just want to load projects already in Quicklisp?
2020-02-18T05:33:46Z vivit: No, what does that do?
2020-02-18T05:33:57Z vivit: ((ql:register-local-projects), that is; what does that do)
2020-02-18T05:34:36Z beach: If you add a local project to ~/quicklisp/local-projects, Quicklisp does not automatically find it.
2020-02-18T05:35:08Z beach: But again, maybe you are not trying to load a local project?
2020-02-18T05:36:43Z beach: vivit: Does it fail when you try to load a system provided by Quicklisp, or does it fail when you try to load a system defined by yourself?
2020-02-18T05:37:10Z vivit: Provided by quicklisp.
2020-02-18T05:37:26Z beach: OK, so then the register-local-projects is not the problem.
2020-02-18T05:37:30Z vivit: The quicklisp website says that the quickload function "will automatically download any supporting software it needs to load [a] system." I feel like I'm probably making a very silly mistake.
2020-02-18T05:37:49Z beach: And what is it that you do when you get the error message?
2020-02-18T05:38:37Z vivit: (ql:quickload literally-anything)
2020-02-18T05:38:56Z beach: Do you have a directory ~/quicklisp ?
2020-02-18T05:39:54Z vivit: Uh.... hrm. I reinstalled it and it's working now.
2020-02-18T05:40:06Z beach: OK, good.
2020-02-18T05:43:40Z vivit: I have a big manually-curated .asdf/ directory. Is there anything I should do to migrate what I have there to quicklisp?
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2020-02-18T05:51:22Z Nilby: I tossed most of my huge manually-curated asdf directory, and had much fewer links only as needed in quicklisp/loccal-projects.
2020-02-18T05:55:08Z White_Flame: vivit: symlink from local-projects to your .asdf directory
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2020-02-18T05:55:25Z White_Flame: it searches nested directories for .asd files
2020-02-18T05:55:53Z White_Flame: (to be extra clear, add a symlink inside local-projects/, don't make local-projects itself a link)
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2020-02-18T07:37:11Z shidima: Good morning all
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2020-02-18T07:38:40Z no-defun-allowed: Hello shidima.
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2020-02-18T10:06:46Z m7v21z42: how do I become badass and write + compile code live, on-the-fly like Baggers does? I love writing lisp, I've studied a few of his videos with CEPL. When it comes to making a project or learning further though, I seem to not fully comprehend lisp just yet
2020-02-18T10:08:09Z beach: Then you need practice.  And you need to expose your code and take into account the feedback you get so that your code respects conventions.
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2020-02-18T10:11:10Z jmercouris: Practice makes perfect.
2020-02-18T10:11:29Z jmercouris: There is no universal recipe for how to learn. You will have to figure that out for yourself I am afraid.
2020-02-18T10:11:52Z m7v21z42: is there a good online live runtime compiler / interpreter or something like Pico-8 for rapid testing and learning?
2020-02-18T10:11:52Z jmercouris: One thing is pretty certain though, exposure to source material and practice will likely improve your skills
2020-02-18T10:12:06Z jmercouris: the best way to do live development is via SLIME
2020-02-18T10:12:13Z jmercouris: may I suggest Shinmera's distribution?
2020-02-18T10:12:16Z beach: m7v21z42: You may also need to practice typing, and you might need to know more commands in your editor to make things fast.
2020-02-18T10:12:45Z jmercouris: m7v21z42: https://portacle.github.io
2020-02-18T10:13:03Z beach: m7v21z42: Any Common Lisp implementation can be used with Emacs+SLIME and you then have an incremental compiler that will do what you want.
2020-02-18T10:15:14Z beach: m7v21z42: Common Lisp is a "dynamic" (or "interactive") language meaning that the semantics are defined as a suite of interactions, as opposed to "static" (or "batch") languages that have a strict separation between compile time and run time.  This feature of Common Lisp is what makes live coding like that possible.
2020-02-18T10:15:27Z beach: m7v21z42: Again, you can do that with any Common Lisp implementation.
2020-02-18T10:15:35Z m7v21z42: thanks for suggesting portacle, seems like a good toolset of what I was already using
2020-02-18T10:17:30Z beach: m7v21z42: Are you already comfortable with using Emacs?
2020-02-18T10:18:37Z m7v21z42: sorta. I have maybe 10 or 20 hours of experience working with it and learning basic important functions
2020-02-18T10:18:52Z beach: OK, then there is a lot of work to be done.
2020-02-18T10:19:25Z beach: Emacs allows for navigation and editing by expressions, as opposed to just characters and words.
2020-02-18T10:19:36Z beach: This feature is used a lot for editing Common Lisp codee.
2020-02-18T10:19:37Z beach: code.
2020-02-18T10:19:51Z m7v21z42: it's hard to remember everything but I'm familiar with the basics
2020-02-18T10:19:53Z beach: You need to start getting comfortable with those commands.
2020-02-18T10:20:13Z beach: That's fine, but the basics won't be enough for your goal.
2020-02-18T10:20:17Z jmercouris: I mean, maybe
2020-02-18T10:20:22Z jmercouris: you can always just use arrow keys and menu bar
2020-02-18T10:20:30Z jmercouris: it will slow you down, but not any more than thinking would anyways
2020-02-18T10:20:38Z jmercouris: my input speed and typing is not what slows me down when programming
2020-02-18T10:20:39Z beach: jmercouris: Not if the objective is supposed to be reached.
2020-02-18T10:20:43Z m7v21z42: I think it is probably better for learning to learn the key command versions
2020-02-18T10:20:49Z beach: jmercouris: You can never get up to speed that way.
2020-02-18T10:20:59Z jmercouris: yeah, I agree it is very slow
2020-02-18T10:21:19Z jmercouris: if they want to be as fast as baggers... they will need to master their tool
2020-02-18T10:21:56Z beach: jmercouris: Things like C-M-a, C-M-e, C-M-f, C-M-b, C-M-t are absolutely necessary to get up too speed with Common Lisp editing.
2020-02-18T10:22:16Z jmercouris: yes, indeed
2020-02-18T10:22:22Z jmercouris: traversing the SEXP rather than the text
2020-02-18T10:23:04Z beach: I also tend to use M-/ a lot, especially if my variable names are long as they usually are in my code.
2020-02-18T10:23:05Z jmercouris: one of my personal favorites is M-r
2020-02-18T10:23:10Z beach: Sure.
2020-02-18T10:23:13Z splittist: m7v21z42: when I want to do something with a new tool, I tell myself to take the time to find the 'right' way to do it (e.g. moving by word or by sexp), then make a note (perhaps on a sticky to be stuck to the monitor) and take the time to use that new way even if it is slower to begin with. After a while your fingers will take over and you can move to learning the next thing.
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2020-02-18T10:23:41Z beach: splittist: That's excellent advice.
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2020-02-18T10:24:04Z m7v21z42: this might be faux pas to ask about, but does anyone know anything about qlisp?
2020-02-18T10:24:21Z m7v21z42: very interesting but hard to find information about it
2020-02-18T10:24:34Z no-defun-allowed: qlisp?
2020-02-18T10:24:38Z beach: m7v21z42: If it is not a Common Lisp implementation, then this channel is not the right forum for it.
2020-02-18T10:24:56Z splittist: My latest thing is C-c C-] in slime modes, to close all the open parens. Although sometimes closing them one by one and watching the corresponding paren being highlighted is a good check that what I think is happening is actually happening.
2020-02-18T10:26:10Z m7v21z42: thank you everyone, I'll return later
2020-02-18T10:26:52Z no-defun-allowed: What is qlisp?
2020-02-18T10:27:14Z phoe: ~ baby don't cons me ~ don't cons me ~ no more ~
2020-02-18T10:28:25Z jmercouris: ???
2020-02-18T10:28:31Z jmercouris: what is love?
2020-02-18T10:28:52Z no-defun-allowed: 🤔
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2020-02-18T10:56:06Z flip214: jmercouris: shouldn't that be "what is lisp?"
2020-02-18T10:56:22Z jmercouris: lol you're right, I'm sorry, missed opportunity :-)
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2020-02-18T11:01:37Z no-defun-allowed: That's what I asked, sans one letter.
2020-02-18T11:03:24Z jmercouris: oh, now it is making sense to me
2020-02-18T11:03:30Z jmercouris: i was wondering why phoe had said that
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2020-02-18T12:13:49Z phoe: I have a foreign array of five u8s. Is there any clever way of turning that into a Lisp integer, other than manually reading that into a (vector u8 (5)) and manually LDBing the bytes into the result?
2020-02-18T12:15:21Z semz: Is endianness important or is it just for storage?
2020-02-18T12:15:50Z phoe: The latter. I don't care about endianness - the only thing I care about is that these values are unique.
2020-02-18T12:16:15Z phoe: So in my case either all of them are big-endian or all are little-endian, which is good enough for me.
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2020-02-18T12:18:50Z phoe: I can read that as a foreign array of (:array :unsigned-char 5) and then sum it up manually, I just wonder if it can be done in a nicer way.
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2020-02-18T12:45:16Z didi: Just a fun found in SBCL: (defun 1- (number) (declare (explicit-check)) (1- number)) turtles all the way.
2020-02-18T12:47:11Z phoe: didi: that definition is there for the sake of e.g. source location finders, the actual 1- is implemented elsewhere.
2020-02-18T12:47:32Z trittweiler: as a compiler intrinsic, essentially
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2020-02-18T12:54:56Z didi: Interesting.
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2020-02-18T13:05:50Z jdz: The princess is in another castle!
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2020-02-18T13:09:49Z didi: In other news, here's an implementation of Algorithm L of reservoir-sampling: <https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2f53652a> Admittedly, it's less useful because we're inputting a list that's already in memory, but oh well.
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2020-02-18T13:15:26Z jdz: didi: I'd use (coerce <array> 'list) instead of MAP-INTO with IDENTITY.
2020-02-18T13:15:59Z didi: jdz: Thank, but I only want the first K elements.
2020-02-18T13:16:05Z didi: Thanks*
2020-02-18T13:17:01Z jdz: didi: Right, my bad.
2020-02-18T13:17:41Z jdz: You're already doing COERCE.  But then again, I'd also COERCE the input list into an array instead of using NTHCDR.
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2020-02-18T13:18:03Z didi: jdz: Thank you.
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2020-02-18T13:34:05Z Xach: sjl: no. i want to add that info in the future.
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2020-02-18T13:46:13Z sjl: Xach: ah, okay.  thanks.
2020-02-18T13:46:20Z jdz: didi: I'd also write the whole method like this (maybe after thinking of ways to make it prettier): https://gist.github.com/jdz/c59f46053f7e79b69380f222a08cc5f9
2020-02-18T13:46:42Z didi: jdz: Cool, thank you.
2020-02-18T13:48:00Z Xach: sjl: i want to make it easy for anyone to find out exactly what, when & how I got something that's in a dist.
2020-02-18T13:48:42Z didi: jdz: By the looks of it, I would say it isn't algorithm L anymore, but still nice.
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2020-02-18T13:49:41Z jdz: didi: Right, I don't know what the algorithm L is (but I can guess); I was rolling with the method name.  And the effect should be similar.  If it's not, there's something wrong with the algorithm L (if my guess is correct).
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2020-02-18T13:52:27Z jdz: I might also be talking nonsense, in which case I'd kindly ask you to point that out :)
2020-02-18T13:53:04Z didi: jdz: Better yet, here's an Wikipedia page: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir_sampling#An_optimal_algorithm> :-)
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2020-02-18T13:54:05Z _death: didi: cool.. I've been using algorithm R up to now
2020-02-18T13:54:37Z didi: _death: So last year... ;-)
2020-02-18T13:54:45Z _death: didi: https://gist.github.com/death/5fbe9dff12d666a16c40b7fb118759db
2020-02-18T13:54:50Z didi: _death: Thank you.
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2020-02-18T14:21:55Z _death: not sure how much better it is in practice, since non-cryptographic PRNGs are quite fast ;)
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2020-02-18T14:43:07Z _death: could be useful if you have a way to quickly skip a number of items
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2020-02-18T14:45:41Z _death: (i.e. if there's a big speed difference between skipping M items and scanning M items.. for example, querying items from a server)
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2020-02-18T14:46:22Z vivit: White_Flame: Thank you
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2020-02-18T14:48:40Z _death: also, since the indices are independent from the items, they can be pre-computed for each sample size
2020-02-18T14:50:20Z _death: since random numbers are involved, several such sequences can be generated
2020-02-18T14:51:23Z _death: they could be lazy sequences precomputed up to an arbitrary N
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2020-02-18T14:51:35Z _death: time to stop rambling ;)
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2020-02-18T14:54:57Z phoe: Xach: has there been a dist update recently?
2020-02-18T14:55:41Z phoe: oooh, very recently, I see
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2020-02-18T14:56:10Z didi: _death: My list version scans the list, the original version only uses indices, so I'm guessing you get a speed up by skipping items.
2020-02-18T14:56:11Z Xach: in progress!
2020-02-18T14:56:33Z phoe: thanks!
2020-02-18T14:57:44Z _death: didi: if you need to scan each item then the point of the algorithm is lost
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2020-02-18T14:58:33Z didi: _death: Even worse: the list is all in memory, so the reservoir advantage is non-existent.
2020-02-18T14:59:21Z _death: didi: well, there is still some advantage, as you don't have to know the length of the list a priori
2020-02-18T14:59:37Z didi: _death: True.
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2020-02-18T15:06:58Z _death: didi: so it seems a good interface would be a lazy sequence of indices.. then user code can skip items and update the sample accordingly
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2020-02-18T15:08:54Z _death: (or a stream of indices, if you like)
2020-02-18T15:10:09Z didi: _death: It seems to me that the point is not having all the source in memory. I think Algorithm L advantage is avoiding calling `random' at every source element.
2020-02-18T15:11:11Z _death: didi: right, it not just avoids calling random, but it avoids doing anything, hence items can be skipped
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2020-02-18T15:11:24Z didi: _death: True, true.
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2020-02-18T15:12:24Z _death: I would write a short snippet to make my interface idea clear, but I have to leave soon
2020-02-18T15:12:25Z didi: Tho my use case, i.e. reading large files from disk, would still force someone to read all the items sequentially.
2020-02-18T15:13:07Z _death: didi: can you not seek? (do you not have an index for each item position, or fixed size items?)
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2020-02-18T15:13:57Z didi: _death: Right, I can pre process it, tho I don't. Each line is a record.
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2020-02-18T15:14:24Z _death: then algorithm R would likely be sufficient ;)
2020-02-18T15:14:33Z didi: _death: Thank you.
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2020-02-18T15:15:05Z _death: the way I've been using it also required scanning, but it helped not having to know the length beforehand
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2020-02-18T15:21:32Z rpg: Wondering: is anyone proposing any lisp-related projects to Google Summer of Code?
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2020-02-18T15:21:50Z _death: a search engine
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2020-02-18T15:23:20Z beach: I keep wondering whether GSoC takes place in December-January in the southern hemisphere.
2020-02-18T15:23:58Z jmercouris: lol
2020-02-18T15:24:00Z jmercouris: that's hilarious
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2020-02-18T15:28:08Z rpg: beach: No, but they have to write the code counterclockwise
2020-02-18T15:28:15Z beach: Ah. :)
2020-02-18T15:28:37Z jmercouris: i thought the difference was that their parentheses have to be like )print "lol"(
2020-02-18T15:28:46Z jmercouris: oh man that looks so wrong
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2020-02-18T15:28:52Z beach: As I recall, karlosz did the Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP as a GSoC project.
2020-02-18T15:29:09Z rpg: jmercouris: That should be a sort of INTERCAL-like language
2020-02-18T15:29:29Z jmercouris: what is ALGOL language exactly?
2020-02-18T15:29:33Z jmercouris: I see many references to it
2020-02-18T15:29:38Z jmercouris: but I've not met someone who says "I know algol"
2020-02-18T15:29:49Z splittist: jmercouris: Australians were using parens 10,000 years ago. What goes around comes around, as they say.
2020-02-18T15:29:51Z beach: jmercouris: You need to study CS history.
2020-02-18T15:29:59Z Xach: splittist: vigorous boos
2020-02-18T15:29:59Z jmercouris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALGOL
2020-02-18T15:30:04Z rpg: beach: GSoC is done through the project, so it would have to be someone like your Uni, or the SBCL project, or something like that.
2020-02-18T15:30:38Z beach: rpg: I know.  I was not aware of karlosz applying that time, and I was not a mentor.
2020-02-18T15:30:40Z rpg: jmercouris: ALGOL was sort of the Ur-language for structured (post FORTRAN) programming.  It gave rise to a lot of key PL ideas.
2020-02-18T15:31:13Z jmercouris: PL?
2020-02-18T15:31:16Z rpg: jmercouris: It's usually taught in intro programming language courses.
2020-02-18T15:31:34Z Bike: unlike with lisp, modern languages closely derived from old ALGOL aren't really called ALGOL, as far as i know anyway
2020-02-18T15:31:47Z jmercouris: apparently the ACCM was doing it for some time
2020-02-18T15:31:54Z rpg: jmercouris: Many of the ideas in ALGOL found their better-known exposure in Pascal.
2020-02-18T15:32:00Z jmercouris: I see
2020-02-18T15:32:32Z beach: jmercouris: PL = programming language
2020-02-18T15:32:35Z jmercouris: oh ok
2020-02-18T15:32:37Z jmercouris: thank you
2020-02-18T15:33:16Z beach: Now didn't the Scheme specification contain a reference to Algol?
2020-02-18T15:33:19Z rpg: jmercouris: So in PL class we read the Algol report, a paper about Self, Prolog, McCarthy's Lisp paper, and probably some others I have forgotten.
2020-02-18T15:33:28Z jmercouris: oh I see
2020-02-18T15:33:31Z jmercouris: very interesting
2020-02-18T15:33:49Z rpg: I think ALGOL added a lot of clarity to the understanding of how arguments get passed to procedures.
2020-02-18T15:33:57Z beach: Algol was my first programming language.  I had no place to execute it though.
2020-02-18T15:34:17Z beach: I read the book in 1975 or so.
2020-02-18T15:34:42Z Bike: "We gladly acknowledge the influence of manuals for MIT Scheme [20], T [21], Scheme 84 [12], Common Lisp [25], Chez Scheme [8], PLT Scheme [11], and Algol 60 [1]."
2020-02-18T15:34:44Z Bike: in r6rs.
2020-02-18T15:34:47Z rpg: If I recall correctly, it took years and years for Algol 68 and Ada to be fully implemented.
2020-02-18T15:35:19Z rpg: Meanwhile, Pascal took over most of the energy behind structured programming.
2020-02-18T15:35:19Z beach: Bike: Also R3RS: "Dedicated to the Memory of ALGOL 60"
2020-02-18T15:35:21Z Bike: algol 60 is like twenty years older than the rest of those, so that's kind of neat
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2020-02-18T15:41:07Z beach: jmercouris: Learning about the history of programming languages, operating systems, and computer architecture is an absolute must.  Otherwise, you will fall into the trap of thinking that what you have now is not only all there is, but that it's the best thing since sliced bread.  And then you won't have the mental tools to want something better.
2020-02-18T15:42:49Z Odin- would say that, somewhat simplified, ALGOL is to C and Pascal as LISP is to Scheme and Common Lisp.
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2020-02-18T15:43:26Z beach: That's not a bad parallel actually.
2020-02-18T15:44:26Z rpg: I think that's mostly true, but I'm not sure that C fits perfectly -- it seems really off on its own.
2020-02-18T15:44:41Z Odin-: C is more indirect than Pascal.
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2020-02-18T15:46:49Z Bike: BCPL cut a bunch of stuff out and C has only barely got it back
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2020-02-18T15:48:56Z Odin-: And even then sometimes only against the grain.
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2020-02-18T15:49:36Z drmeister: Does anyone know quicklisp well enough (hi Xach) to confirm that this is where quicklisp loads asdf systems?
2020-02-18T15:49:36Z drmeister: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/quicklisp/setup.lisp#L161
2020-02-18T15:49:57Z drmeister: I'm trying to time individual quicklisp system loading by wrapping TIME around this.
2020-02-18T15:50:08Z drmeister: I'll know soon - but I thought I'd toss this out there.
2020-02-18T15:50:36Z drmeister: Hokay - no - it isn't.
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2020-02-18T15:52:23Z splittist: Algol 68 - by contrast to Algol 60 - was a decade-long, international experiment in how not to create a language. I'm sure it informed the pragmatism of the CL spec.
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2020-02-18T15:52:42Z drmeister: Yeah - that was naive. quicklisp/asdf are all kinds of recursive when systems are loaded.
2020-02-18T15:54:10Z rpg: splittist: but Algol 68 was still very influential in programming language design.  Like Ada, it turned out to be an experiment in how not to create an IMPLEMENTED language, but they were nevertheless very influential in successor languages that WERE implemented.
2020-02-18T15:54:50Z Odin-: Dare I mention COBOL?
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2020-02-18T15:57:03Z rpg: drmeister: Could you wrap calls to ASDF:OPERATE? I think this would be the right place, but I haven't looked at it to confirm.
2020-02-18T15:57:15Z rpg: drmeister: You might be able to put an :AROUND method on it, but I'm not sure.
2020-02-18T15:57:20Z drmeister: rpg: Thank you - I'm trying that now.
2020-02-18T15:57:31Z drmeister: Well, something like that.
2020-02-18T15:57:44Z rpg: drmeister: The tricky thing is that you don't know whether the COMPILE-OP is going to be invoked or not.
2020-02-18T15:57:46Z drmeister: I hacked asdf:load-system
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2020-02-18T15:58:12Z drmeister: I clear the cache beforehand
2020-02-18T15:58:15Z splittist: rpg: Oh, absolutely. And Ada itself was a reaction to Algol 68.
2020-02-18T15:58:17Z rpg: drmeister: That's just a user interface function: internally LOAD-SYSTEM is never called recursively. It's a thin shim around OPERATE
2020-02-18T15:58:54Z drmeister: I hit Control-C in a quicklisp load and looked at the stack - in this ccase there are several load-systems on the stack.
2020-02-18T15:58:59Z drmeister: That's what led me to try this.
2020-02-18T15:59:22Z rpg: drmeister: That must be stuff that's being done by QL -- it wouldn't be ASDF doing that.
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2020-02-18T16:02:12Z vivit: Is there any way to change the directory in which quicklisp in installed without reinstalling quicklisp?
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2020-02-18T16:04:19Z phoe: vivit: AFAIK you can just move the directory
2020-02-18T16:04:34Z phoe: AFAIK setup.lisp operates relative to the directory it is in
2020-02-18T16:04:55Z phoe: so `mv ~/quicklisp ~/slowlisp` and then `(load #p"~/slowlisp/setup.lisp")` *should* work to the best of my knowledge
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2020-02-18T16:21:34Z vivit: thanks
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2020-02-18T16:53:21Z Xach: phoe is 1000 per mille right
2020-02-18T16:54:29Z phoe: Xach: sometimes even faster, depending on the CPUs I have on a given machine
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2020-02-18T16:56:32Z pfdietz: Odin-: I know a company that uses Common Lisp to manipulate COBOL source code.
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2020-02-18T17:06:35Z phoe: oh my goodness
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2020-02-18T17:10:16Z albatroz: I'm having a weird behaviour on SBCL in Windows.
2020-02-18T17:10:33Z albatroz: I have a stream to a file.
2020-02-18T17:11:27Z clothespin: and?
2020-02-18T17:11:57Z albatroz: And when I try to use fstat to get the file's information from its file descriptor I get a "SB-POSIX:FSTAT: The storage control block address is invalid."
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2020-02-18T17:13:58Z clothespin: have you tried another os, by any chance, to know what correct behavior is?
2020-02-18T17:14:39Z phoe: seems like some sorta permissions issue, by brief googling
2020-02-18T17:14:40Z albatroz5: Actually no. But I was expecting to get a stat such as by using stat with a filename
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2020-02-18T17:17:43Z albatroz5: `(with-open-file (stream "z:/.emacs.d/init.el")	   (sb-posix:fstat (sb-sys:fd-stream-fd stream)))`
2020-02-18T17:18:31Z albatroz5: this is my simple test. It works as expected if I use `sb-posix:stat`
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2020-02-18T17:19:30Z albatroz5: Just wondering if someone had bumped into this before...
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2020-02-18T17:28:57Z Josh_2: I don't think many people in here use Windows albatroz
2020-02-18T17:30:05Z pfdietz: I use Windows, but I run SBCL in it using WSL/Ubuntu.
2020-02-18T17:30:08Z clothespin: WARNING: DBG_PRINTEXCEPTION_C: Invalid parameter passed to C runtime function.
2020-02-18T17:30:28Z clothespin: I've replicated your error albatroz
2020-02-18T17:30:47Z clothespin: an interesting debug message with it
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2020-02-18T17:39:11Z albatroz: Yeah, I'm stuck with windows unfortunately.
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2020-02-18T17:40:26Z albatroz: I beggining to suspect that the open of streams isn't "informing" the external library that implements fstat.
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2020-02-18T17:41:05Z albatroz: and thus the invalid address.
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2020-02-18T17:41:35Z albatroz: But at this point I'm just shooting in the dark...
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2020-02-18T18:10:48Z clothespin: albatroz: let me try it on macos
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2020-02-18T18:12:07Z clothespin: it works on macos, returning a psoix:stat object
2020-02-18T18:12:27Z clothespin: does windows support fstat?
2020-02-18T18:16:09Z phoe: seems like it does
2020-02-18T18:16:18Z phoe: you might have more luck on #sbcl if it's this implementation-specific
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2020-02-18T19:16:22Z jmercouris: any mailman like server written in CL?
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2020-02-18T21:25:58Z phoe: you mean for delivering email?
2020-02-18T21:26:50Z phoe: you could try porting https://github.com/franzinc/maild
2020-02-18T21:27:30Z phoe: clhs ~d
2020-02-18T21:27:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbb.htm
2020-02-18T21:28:07Z Shinmera: much easier to have a remote mail server and just send via smtp.
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2020-02-18T21:28:28Z p_l: mailman is for managing mailing list, isn't it?
2020-02-18T21:28:42Z Odin-: Last I knew, yes.
2020-02-18T21:30:38Z Shinmera: I was working on a mailing list service in summer but never got around to finishing it.
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2020-02-18T22:48:45Z pyzozord: Hello I wish I knew lisp. It sounds so awesome. Why do you think lisp has not taken off as the main web langauge instead of javascript?
2020-02-18T22:49:30Z White_Flame: lisp was heavily invested into in a previous AI wave.  But then when overblown AI claims didn't materialize, people stigmatized the langauge instead
2020-02-18T22:50:27Z White_Flame: now that that "AI Winter" has passed by a generation or two, there's fresher interest
2020-02-18T22:50:50Z Xach: pyzozord: that is not an uninteresting question, but the topic of this channel is common lisp, and if you would like to talk about common lisp in some way, that's better.
2020-02-18T22:50:56Z White_Flame: also, javascript was initially designed to be a Lisp derivative, but politics demanded it be java-like for fad hotness
2020-02-18T22:52:13Z White_Flame: ##lisp is a general lisp-family channel, and #clschool is for people who are learning common lisp
2020-02-18T22:52:23Z no-defun-allowed: not funny, didn't laugh
2020-02-18T22:52:26Z White_Flame: whereas #lisp (here) is a common lisp users channel
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2020-02-18T22:55:56Z albatroz: clothespin thanks for checking in macos. I've checked on ubuntu and it works as expected.
2020-02-18T22:56:44Z no-defun-allowed: pyzozord: You tell me. Why didn't some other language take off as the "main web language"? Probably similar reasons.
2020-02-18T22:56:58Z albatroz: Additionally, windows does support fstat (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/c-runtime-library/reference/fstat-fstat32-fstat64-fstati64-fstat32i64-fstat64i32?view=vs-2019)
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2020-02-18T22:57:45Z p_l: not windows, MSVCCRT
2020-02-18T22:57:51Z albatroz: I think this is a windows only problem. I'll try and check #sbcl as @phoe suggested. thanks!
2020-02-18T22:57:59Z p_l: which is crucial difference, because I'm not sure how SBCL is compiled for windows
2020-02-18T22:58:19Z albatroz: p_l yes, you are correct!
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2020-02-18T22:58:36Z p_l: (also, consider anything from sb-posix to be no-go on windows, as it should be - we need a proper sb-winnt, I guess)
2020-02-18T22:59:15Z clothespin: sbcl uses msys64 to compile on windows
2020-02-18T22:59:40Z clothespin: windows is supposed to be posix
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2020-02-18T23:01:24Z albatroz: I read today that MSVCCRT comes bundled in every recent windows, why not make use of it?
2020-02-18T23:02:03Z clothespin: because sbcl uses gnu crt
2020-02-18T23:04:27Z p_l: albatroz: MSVCCRT is available when you compile with MSVC
2020-02-18T23:04:54Z clothespin: theres a pretty good manual somewhere on how to build sbcl on windows, a bit dated, but good
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2020-02-18T23:04:55Z p_l: albatroz: and yes, it's bundled, but that doesn't mean it's easy to use it
2020-02-18T23:05:05Z p_l: (unless you compile with MSVC)
2020-02-18T23:05:25Z p_l: anyway, from point of SBCL, I'd rather use NT APIs directly
2020-02-18T23:05:36Z p_l: whether WinAPI or actually NTAPI bits
2020-02-18T23:05:45Z p_l: instead of C-specific wrappers
2020-02-18T23:06:01Z p_l: WinAPI and NTAPI are designed to be language agnostic, you see
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2020-02-18T23:06:20Z albatroz: I'm sorry, I'm quite new to this kind of details (mostly I just use Common Lisp)
2020-02-18T23:07:06Z clothespin: my pc is setup for building sbcl on windows
2020-02-18T23:08:03Z clothespin: i use visual c++ for everything except sbcl
2020-02-18T23:09:31Z albatroz: So, what I take from this, until now, is that SBCL does support stat and fstat in windows through the use of GNU CRT and not MSVCCRT?
2020-02-18T23:09:52Z clothespin: i doubt the crt is providing the function
2020-02-18T23:10:06Z clothespin: it's probably another dll
2020-02-18T23:12:28Z clothespin: the gnu c runtime probably provides this
2020-02-18T23:13:17Z albatroz: Either way, it seems to not work on windows.
2020-02-18T23:13:32Z clothespin: building sbcl on visual studio would be a major fork
2020-02-18T23:14:13Z albatroz: I think i have some instructions on building sbcl, but not with visual studio.
2020-02-18T23:14:35Z clothespin: it takes longer to set up the msys64 with gcc and binutils than probably to make the actual fix in sbcl
2020-02-18T23:15:09Z albatroz: As I said, I'll drop a line in #sbcl and see if someone has bumped into this.
2020-02-18T23:15:13Z clothespin: https://solarianprogrammer.com/2019/08/20/building-sbcl-steel-bank-common-lisp-windows/
2020-02-18T23:15:14Z albatroz: thanks for the insight!
2020-02-18T23:15:36Z albatroz: Nice! thank you once again!
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2020-02-19T05:19:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-19T05:34:28Z housel: Good morning
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2020-02-19T05:35:16Z housel: Today I discovered that one of the gabriel benchmarks in cl-bench has been wrong since forever https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/cl-bench/merge_requests/1/diffs?commit_id=5f4da018672624b28d761c1b35015a98b19653ad
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2020-02-19T05:59:56Z Nilby: According to Gabriel "you cannot write production code as bad as this in C".
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2020-02-19T06:33:13Z madrik: When computing a result given some previous let-bindings, what style do you prefer?
2020-02-19T06:33:14Z madrik: https://paste.debian.net/1131052/
2020-02-19T06:33:38Z madrik: Do you prefer the result following on, as with let*?
2020-02-19T06:33:51Z madrik: Or do you prefer a separate computation, as with a nested let?
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2020-02-19T06:34:53Z no-defun-allowed: Usually I use LET*, but the former nested LET makes perfect sense.
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2020-02-19T06:41:30Z buffergn0me: madrik: LET*, but I think it is best to avoid making variables if possible
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2020-02-19T06:47:52Z madrik: buffergn0me: Why?
2020-02-19T06:48:51Z buffergn0me: madrik: because you have to name the variable something, and the name is more likely than not going to be misleading
2020-02-19T06:49:21Z buffergn0me: madrik: also, it is not clear if the variable is used more than once, or is assigned to, until you read and understand the whole piece of code
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2020-02-19T06:56:44Z phoe: madrik: style 2 in order to avoid nesting LETs and therefore increasing indentation
2020-02-19T06:58:00Z phoe: I know one person who does everything to minimize the number of variables altogether and would therefore write all of this without a single variable binding, but I consider this approach to be highly unreadable when opposed to actual usage of LET
2020-02-19T06:58:30Z Nilby agrees with phoe.
2020-02-19T06:59:26Z phoe: (defun foo (...) (go-further (combine (compute-1 foo bar) (compute-2 baz quux)))) gives you an additional debugging disadvantage - there are no variable bindings to inspect
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2020-02-19T07:11:41Z buffergn0me: phoe: That is true. I sometimes introduce intermediate variables for debugging when using other programming languages. But with SLIME it is easy to evaluate forms, and get at the argument list of called functions. I can't think of a time I had to add a variable to ease debugging in CL
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2020-02-19T07:14:09Z phoe: neither can I, but I think a part of that is because I already use variables generously
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2020-02-19T07:15:48Z Shinmera: "don't name things because the name is misleading" is the strangest thing I've read in a while. The name adds context to give meaning to how you're using it.
2020-02-19T07:15:50Z asarch: One stupid question: I load the library: (ql:quickload :caveman2), I create the project skeleton: (caveman2:make-project #P"/home/asarch/school" :author "me"), load my project: (load #P"school/app.lisp"), make some work, quit and exit Slime. How can I reload the project again? (load #P"school/app.lisp") -> System "school" not found
2020-02-19T07:16:27Z phoe: asarch: why are your projects not in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2020-02-19T07:16:48Z asarch: D'oh!
2020-02-19T07:16:51Z phoe: or is caveman2 doing something strange
2020-02-19T07:17:30Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-02-19T07:17:37Z asarch: Thank you very much phoe! :-)
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2020-02-19T07:19:48Z asarch: Have a nice day guys :-)
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2020-02-19T07:26:56Z beach: I agree with Shinmera.  I often introduce variables using LET* just to add names that explain what the values are.
2020-02-19T07:27:02Z madrik: I surmise that functional programming style tends to eschew variables.
2020-02-19T07:27:52Z madrik: beach: Which of the two styles do you like -- let* as against (some) nested lets?
2020-02-19T07:28:32Z buffergn0me: madrik: FP people call it point-free or tacit style. Also stack- (FORTH) and array- (APL) oriented programming is similar
2020-02-19T07:29:39Z beach: madrik: I usually go with LET* so as to save horizontal space.  But it depends.  If I have several variables that do not depend on one another, and then a few that depend on most of those, nested LETs are preferable.
2020-02-19T07:30:08Z beach: Not sure that was clear. :(
2020-02-19T07:30:45Z madrik: For instance, I was reading the code to a log analyzer I wrote.  I have a LET with two bindings, one for an ip and one for a domain.
2020-02-19T07:31:05Z madrik: Right now, I combine them in a nested LET as a result named 'query'.
2020-02-19T07:31:17Z beach: In that case, a nested LET might be preferable since the first two do not depend on each other.
2020-02-19T07:31:35Z beach: Also, you are not short of horizontal space.
2020-02-19T07:31:59Z madrik: I recall trying the other way with a LET*, but I'm ambivalent about it.
2020-02-19T07:32:28Z beach: I think in your case, nested LETs are preferable.
2020-02-19T07:32:30Z Nilby: If you want your code to read like Forth and APL by all means avoid naming things. For that matter use only &rest arguments.
2020-02-19T07:33:02Z madrik: beach: That strikes me as a better fit, yes.
2020-02-19T07:33:18Z beach: madrik: With LET, it is perfectly clear that the computation of component-2 does not involve component-1.
2020-02-19T07:41:37Z madrik: Indeed.  Unlike, say, the situation with SETQ and SETF, this seems like a style issue mostly.
2020-02-19T07:42:07Z madrik: I cannot recall the last time I used SETQ.
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2020-02-19T08:10:17Z Cymew: Probably when you last wrote elisp. It's more common there.
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2020-02-19T08:27:26Z phoe: even elisp has SETF nowadays
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2020-02-19T08:54:49Z Cymew: It has, but has historically been heavy on SETQ usage.
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2020-02-19T09:06:22Z madrik: I trawled the Lisp newsgroup archives for a bit on this point (SETQ v SETF). There was a trend of thought that advocated using SETQ for the express purpose of assigning to variables, and SETF for other cases.
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2020-02-19T09:07:56Z shka_: madrik: nah, don't use setq
2020-02-19T09:08:25Z shka_: you are not getting anything from using it
2020-02-19T09:09:05Z Shinmera: I mean there's the argument that it's more explicit about its purpose, but that's already encoded in the fact that a variable is going to be a lone symbol, so
2020-02-19T09:09:30Z heisig: And there is this funny case where SETQ can expands into SETF when symbol macros are involved :)
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2020-02-19T09:11:56Z phoe: heisig: let's not open this can of worms
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2020-02-19T09:26:02Z madrik: So, it doesn't make sense to think of SETQ being 'lower-level' or 'more primitive' than SETF?
2020-02-19T09:27:55Z phoe: madrik: it makes sense, as long as you do not use symbol macros
2020-02-19T09:28:17Z phoe: SETQ assigns values to variables, and a symbol macro is not a variable
2020-02-19T09:28:17Z Shinmera: it's more primitive in intention and applicability.
2020-02-19T09:28:29Z Nilby: (when (> (get-universal-time) 3786854400) (alias-shiftf 'sets 'set 'setf) (without-package-locks (unreify-special-form 'setq)))
2020-02-19T09:29:11Z phoe: wait, what
2020-02-19T09:29:22Z no-defun-allowed: It's already past 2020.
2020-02-19T09:30:54Z no-defun-allowed: Rather, it's already past that universal time that designates the start of 2020, give or take.
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2020-02-19T09:32:13Z madrik: I did not know about symbol macros.  Thanks.
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2020-02-19T09:35:15Z Nilby: I'm saying, now that it's 2020 I wish we could just say, as long as we're not running some old ass code, SET should be SETF, SETS or better SET-SYMBOL should be SET, and SETQ should be gone.
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2020-02-19T09:36:42Z Nilby: Just think how many 'f's we'd save.
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2020-02-19T09:41:02Z Nilby: And I know that "old" code using setq includes very dear things like CLOS and LOOP.
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2020-02-19T09:49:49Z madrik: Nilby: Maybe SET, once its meaning is again open for change, can be used to create sets, like LIST right now creates lists.
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2020-02-19T09:53:41Z madrik: On the topic of change, is there any movement toward a revision of the ANSI standard?
2020-02-19T09:54:16Z phoe: madrik: some people say there will never be one, some people actually hope for one
2020-02-19T09:54:26Z phoe: but AFAIK no one actually works on it at the moment
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2020-02-19T09:54:42Z Shinmera: there will never be one.
2020-02-19T09:55:21Z phoe: see?
2020-02-19T09:55:47Z Shinmera: Especially not with people doing such a good job not needing one.
2020-02-19T09:57:04Z Shinmera: I also postulate a revision that would break compatibility would never catch on.
2020-02-19T09:57:19Z Shinmera: So all those funny names are here to stay.
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2020-02-19T10:01:30Z beach: madrik: I have a project on the backburner to create a revised language definition that would just specify lots of behavior that is now undefined.  It is called WSCL, which means Well Specified Common Lisp, and it pronounced like "whistle".
2020-02-19T10:02:03Z beach: madrik: WSCL would only put in writing what most or all implementations already do.
2020-02-19T10:02:12Z beach: So no incompatible changes.
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2020-02-19T10:05:38Z srandon111: hello all i am studying clojure from the book "clojure for the brave and true" i arrived at anonymous functions... and was wondering... how can i create a function which multiplles all elements within a vector?  i tried this...( (fn [[x]] (* x) ) [4 3 4]) but doesn't work...only returns the first element i also tried this... ( (fn [& x] (* x) ) [4 3 4]) but again doesnt work... "Cannot cast clojure.lang.ArraySeq to java.lang.Number" so can somebody
2020-02-19T10:05:38Z srandon111: help me understand... how i would do this simple task in clojure?
2020-02-19T10:06:00Z beach: srandon111: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.  Sorry.
2020-02-19T10:06:58Z no-defun-allowed: (defun multiply-vector (vector constant) (map 'vector (lambda (x) (* x constant)) vector))
2020-02-19T10:07:00Z p_l: srandon111: you'll have better luck in #clojure
2020-02-19T10:07:27Z no-defun-allowed: And yes, you would have more luck discussing mocklisp 2^W^Wclojure in #clojure.
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2020-02-19T10:12:53Z madrik: Shinmera: I haven't used Python very much, but from the outside, the change from 2 to 3 seems to have proved very painful and disturbing.  Is that the kind of break in backward compatibility you had in mind?
2020-02-19T10:13:45Z Shinmera: One of many, yes. But also remember CL's history. The only way it could have happened in the first place is with all of those weird compatibilities from pre-existing dialects.
2020-02-19T10:14:08Z Shinmera: I do not think most lispers would give up that compatibility just to have some different names.
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2020-02-19T10:17:22Z madrik: What would you like to see in a revised specification?
2020-02-19T10:17:59Z beach feels /ignore-d.
2020-02-19T10:18:34Z madrik: beach: Besides specifying undefined items.
2020-02-19T10:18:39Z Shinmera: customisable INTERN. Most of everything else is either not important, or already covered with portability libraries.
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2020-02-19T10:19:55Z madrik: beach: BTW, which is/are the undefined thing(s) that really get to you?
2020-02-19T10:21:28Z beach: madrik: The standard says that if some operator is defined to take an argument of a particular type, and there is no particular mention of what happens if that type is violated, then the behavior is undefined.  So there are many operators that could fail in spectacular ways rather than signaling an error.
2020-02-19T10:22:06Z beach: madrik: Take AREF for instance.
2020-02-19T10:22:10Z beach: clhs aref
2020-02-19T10:22:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm
2020-02-19T10:22:20Z beach: The first argument must be an array.
2020-02-19T10:22:32Z beach: But if it is not, the behavior is undefined.
2020-02-19T10:22:49Z beach: That's just one example.
2020-02-19T10:23:03Z madrik: But why would AREF be given anything not an array?
2020-02-19T10:23:20Z beach: Er, because programmers make mistakes?
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2020-02-19T10:24:08Z madrik: Don't implementations catch this?
2020-02-19T10:24:35Z beach: madrik: *sigh* that is precisely what I said.  Implementations catch it, so I would like for the revised standard to put that in writing.
2020-02-19T10:25:09Z madrik: Sorry for being dense.
2020-02-19T10:25:26Z p_l: madrik: it's the difference of having known error type with defined continuations for the case when that happens
2020-02-19T10:25:39Z beach: Specifically, I would like to have a relation between the SAFETY debug quality and the behavior of AREF when something other than an array is given.
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2020-02-19T10:27:21Z beach: Exactly.  It would be reasonable to require an error of type TYPE-ERROR to be signaled when SAFETY is (say) 3.
2020-02-19T10:31:21Z Nilby: Shinmera: I've been running with a customizable intern patch to sbcl and ccl for years now. But of course it doesn't help for writing software for others to use.
2020-02-19T10:32:00Z Nilby: Having a *read-intern* function is very simple & powerful.
2020-02-19T10:34:00Z Nilby: It obviates having to write your own whole reader for many things.
2020-02-19T10:34:52Z flip214: Shinmera: ELS 2020 has a typo - "Paper sumbission deadline extended" => submission
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2020-02-19T10:40:30Z Shinmera: Nilby: I'd prefer it to be attached to the readtable
2020-02-19T10:42:04Z Nilby: Shinmera: Hmmm. That is probably better. Just a little more complicated to implement.
2020-02-19T10:44:04Z Nilby: I'm pretty sure at least some versions of Zetalisp had a *read-intern*.
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2020-02-19T10:46:51Z no-defun-allowed: Speaking of which, anonymous packages (like anonymous classes) would be handy. That could be another component of a safe reader.
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2020-02-19T10:49:11Z no-defun-allowed: I guess (make-package (gensym)) is half of that, but it should also not be retrieved through FIND-PACKAGE and should be garbage collectable as such.
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2020-02-19T10:50:13Z Nilby: I've really just gensym'd and then delete-package for exactly that purpose.
2020-02-19T10:51:36Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but that is a bit messier than it could be.
2020-02-19T10:52:58Z Nilby: True
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2020-02-19T10:53:39Z no-defun-allowed: I hesitate to say that packages aren't exactly first class for that reason, because that isn't how the term isn't defined, but it feels a bit like that.
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2020-02-19T11:40:53Z flip214: Xach: a new quicklisp installation fetches http://beta.quicklisp.org/client/2015-09-24/setup.lisp, ain't there a newer version?!
2020-02-19T11:42:06Z flip214: seems not...
2020-02-19T11:42:06Z flip214: The most up-to-date client, version 2020-01-04, is already installed.
2020-02-19T11:42:25Z flip214: still, the message this http url tells is "outdated"
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2020-02-19T12:01:07Z madrik: beach: has WSCL gained any traction?
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2020-02-19T12:23:52Z beach: madrik: I think I have been encouraged to do it, but the major obstacle is still turning the dpANS source code into a maintainable document that can be modified.
2020-02-19T12:24:51Z beach: Such a version of the dpANS document would be very useful for other things as well.
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2020-02-19T12:33:51Z p_l: beach: does dpANS have the extra commentaries as in CLHS?
2020-02-19T12:34:32Z beach: I don't know.
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2020-02-19T12:36:26Z phoe: commentaries? what do you mean?
2020-02-19T12:36:44Z phoe: give me an example with a matching CLHS page
2020-02-19T12:36:53Z p_l: phoe: CLHS has extra explanations taken from standardisation group mailing list for various decisions
2020-02-19T12:37:15Z p_l: phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X3J13Iss.htm <---- index
2020-02-19T12:37:46Z phoe: p_l: dpANS3 does not have this.
2020-02-19T12:38:08Z phoe: https://github.com/antoszka/dpANS3
2020-02-19T12:38:18Z edgar-rft: p_l: the example code and the "unclarified issues" pages were added by Kent Pitman and are not part of dpANS
2020-02-19T12:38:36Z p_l: edgar-rft: that's what I was worried about
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2020-02-19T12:40:30Z p_l: I wonder if there's anything preventing LW from relicensing CLHS to open it up a bit - will also have to check if I can get unencumbered copies of the clarifications
2020-02-19T12:44:02Z phoe: I guess ANSI is the preventing thing
2020-02-19T12:44:40Z phoe: one would ask them really nicely to freely release a standard they own and still sell on their website even though they no longer seem to have its official TeX sources and only sell a poor-quality scan of it
2020-02-19T12:47:09Z beach: phoe: No, I don't think ANSI is the problem.  I think they own the Common Lisp HyperSpec and they just don't want it to be freely available.
2020-02-19T12:47:46Z phoe: If that was the case, they'd update some of the most terrible errors in CLHS, such as the one on PROG2 page.
2020-02-19T12:47:56Z phoe: I don't think they're even allowed to edit it themselves.
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2020-02-19T12:49:12Z p_l: point is, we don't know the license they got from ANSI, and the legal page stronglyh implies it wasn't just a case of taking dpANS and making CLHS out of it
2020-02-19T12:53:10Z beach: phoe: They own the copyright to the HTML markup.  Not the text.
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2020-02-19T13:00:37Z madrik: phoe: ANSI doesn't have a proper standards document for Common Lisp?
2020-02-19T13:02:58Z phoe: madrik: https://xach.livejournal.com/279786.html
2020-02-19T13:03:14Z madrik: beach: Would not the Lisp vendors be interested in your effort?
2020-02-19T13:04:08Z phoe: madrik: https://web.archive.org/web/20140711172606/http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=431
2020-02-19T13:04:14Z beach: madrik: Oh, they might very well be.
2020-02-19T13:05:02Z beach: madrik: I think it would take the form that an implementation would mention something like "WSCL-conforming".
2020-02-19T13:07:07Z madrik: phoe: Wow.
2020-02-19T13:08:08Z madrik: phoe: I'm at a loss for words.
2020-02-19T13:09:35Z madrik: beach: Would this be a Wiki document or something else?  How far ahead is this project?
2020-02-19T13:09:39Z phoe: madrik: well they're at a loss for a proper CL standard, I guess that's even
2020-02-19T13:11:26Z beach: madrik: I haven't decided that yet.  What I have done so far is to collect a certain number of cases where I would change the current definition.
2020-02-19T13:11:54Z madrik: phoe: Is the HyperSpec a work derived from the Standard? Was ANSI OK with that?
2020-02-19T13:12:59Z beach: madrik: Apparently, the dpANS is almost identical to the final standard, and the dpANS is freely available.
2020-02-19T13:13:22Z p_l: madrik: notice: Parts of this work incorporate material taken from American National Standard X3.226, copyright 1994, and is used with permission of the X3 Secretariat, ITI, 1250 Eye St., NW., Suite 200, Washington, DC 20005 and of the copyright holder, American National Standards Institute. ANSI/X3.226 was developed by Technical Committee X3J13, Common Lisp.
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2020-02-19T13:13:57Z p_l: essentially, LW has permission to reproduce the text of the standard while claiming they faithfully reproduce the content from official document
2020-02-19T13:14:23Z p_l: it's a bit of legal quagmire that sometimes has more important meaning
2020-02-19T13:15:06Z p_l: ultimately even they have to mention they are only *based* on the original text
2020-02-19T13:15:30Z p_l: fortunately for us it's rare to get into dispute where you need to use formal text of the standard
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2020-02-19T13:17:28Z madrik: p_l: Can I point to the HyperSpec saying it specifies the language if I also say it is not the 'Real Thing'?
2020-02-19T13:18:07Z madrik: I understand that the 'Real Thing' is now lost in the mists of time.
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2020-02-19T13:18:15Z phoe: madrik: depends on how deep you want to dive in the cesspool of legal issues
2020-02-19T13:18:20Z p_l: ^
2020-02-19T13:18:34Z madrik: Got it.
2020-02-19T13:18:56Z p_l: I'll just point that you don't always get to disclaim warranty and the like
2020-02-19T13:20:44Z madrik: beach: How do you see WSCL deployed or complied with in practice?
2020-02-19T13:21:31Z beach: madrik: Like I said, most implementations already comply, so there is nothing to be done.
2020-02-19T13:22:25Z madrik: p_l: Could you please elaborate?
2020-02-19T13:23:58Z p_l: madrik: you can have a case where there's contract that specifies adherence to specific standards
2020-02-19T13:24:26Z p_l: being able to bring an authorized, verified copy of the standard is useful in disputes then
2020-02-19T13:25:11Z p_l: it doesn't even have to be an adversarial dispute
2020-02-19T13:25:25Z madrik: p_l: So in a hypothetical case, were I to use Java or C or Haskell, I could point to their (proper, sanctioned) specifications.
2020-02-19T13:25:32Z p_l: yes
2020-02-19T13:25:46Z p_l: or specification documents agreed upon
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2020-02-19T13:26:10Z p_l: so for example it could be ANSI CL + errata/extension document that was agreed before
2020-02-19T13:26:14Z madrik: None of the popular scripting languages -- Python, Perl, Ruby -- have specifications as far as I can tell.
2020-02-19T13:26:18Z p_l: Ruby has
2020-02-19T13:26:32Z p_l: Python doesn't, and it's something that rots it like cancer
2020-02-19T13:27:59Z p_l: Ruby has a) an ISO standard for what is essentially Ruby 1.8.7 b) an agreed upon testsuite that is treated as living standard - implementations use it to verify that they are compliant and cross-portable
2020-02-19T13:28:20Z p_l: Perl is like Python, but ossified in version 5
2020-02-19T13:28:24Z madrik: But isn't the situation (a bit) simpler with Python, now that Python 2 is dead?
2020-02-19T13:28:32Z beach: A specification is not enough.  If it controlled by a vendor, it can change at a whim.  Like Java, for instance.  It is important that the standard be published by an independent orgainization.
2020-02-19T13:28:40Z p_l: madrik: nope
2020-02-19T13:29:06Z p_l: madrik: notice that there are no alternative implementations of neither Python 2 or 3, that are in any reasonable sync with mainline?
2020-02-19T13:29:32Z p_l: I think PyPy is the closest and they essentially have to reverse engineer CPython all the time
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2020-02-19T13:29:47Z madrik: p_l: That sounds like a pain.
2020-02-19T13:30:20Z p_l: because, you see, Python "spec" is a very hairy ball of C code deep in CPython's source code, + various Python-language bits, plus essentially all of the language is dependant on extensions that assume CPython
2020-02-19T13:30:23Z madrik: beach: Like ISO/ANSI.
2020-02-19T13:31:18Z madrik: p_l: Analogous to Emacs with Emacs Lisp?
2020-02-19T13:31:21Z p_l: madrik: in comparison, Ruby's reaction to problem of foreign language modules and presence of alternative implementations was similar to Common Lisp - they introduced FFI
2020-02-19T13:31:23Z beach: It could be any independent organization.  IEEE for instance.
2020-02-19T13:31:26Z p_l: madrik: a lot like that
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2020-02-19T13:34:40Z madrik: What languages meet the criterion of independent standardization?  I know that C, C++, Common Lisp, and Fortran do, to name a few.
2020-02-19T13:35:12Z madrik: Also Scheme.
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2020-02-19T13:46:25Z heisig: Heh, Scheme :D  Actually, I would consider Scheme an example of how not to standardize a language.
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2020-02-19T13:49:29Z pjb: minion: memo for buffergn0me: you are perfectly right. To clarify your code, use: https://termbin.com/6ueu
2020-02-19T13:49:29Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell buffergn0me when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-02-19T13:54:53Z pjb: madrik: have a look at the fundamental paper of functional programming: https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf
2020-02-19T13:55:10Z pjb: phoe: you too ^  You defun foo has named parameter variables!
2020-02-19T13:55:16Z pjb: s/You/Your/
2020-02-19T13:59:20Z pjb: minion: memo for Nilby: read-intern is not enough, you also want to do something with non-symbol tokens. Also, intern comes a little late: we've already split a package name and a symbol name!  You want to parse the symbol token earlier.  See: readtable-parse-token in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp-reader/reader.lisp
2020-02-19T13:59:20Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Nilby when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-02-19T14:07:06Z madrik: pjb: Thanks for the link.
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2020-02-19T14:23:15Z madrik: As a kind of distraction, I played around building Maxima and SBCL from source on a 64-bit host using 4 Lisps -- ACL (32-bit, trial), CCL (64-bit), CMUCL (32-bit), and SBCL (64-bit).
2020-02-19T14:23:32Z madrik: All four can build Maxima without problems.
2020-02-19T14:23:54Z madrik: The ACL trial ran out of heap space in building SBCL.
2020-02-19T14:24:11Z madrik: CMUCL's build complained of an undefined function.
2020-02-19T14:24:32Z madrik: Both CCL and SBCL could build SBCL, even though CCL was slower to build it.
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2020-02-19T14:26:08Z beach: madrik: If you are a Maxima user, you might want to try Climaxima, which is Maxima with a GUI written in CLIM.
2020-02-19T14:26:36Z beach: Then again, maybe your choice of system to build was determined by other criteria.
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2020-02-19T14:28:29Z madrik: beach: Good to know about that.  Thank you.
2020-02-19T14:28:55Z madrik: I just did it as a mind-clearing exercise.
2020-02-19T14:29:07Z beach: I see.
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2020-02-19T15:09:26Z Shinmera: Currently testing ELS registration with Didier
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2020-02-19T15:13:01Z phoe: which testing framework are you using?
2020-02-19T15:13:33Z Shinmera: the one where we put things in manually and see if it works.
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2020-02-19T15:15:45Z p_l: might be useful to have Selenium client in CL one day
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2020-02-19T15:19:04Z phoe: https://github.com/TatriX/cl-selenium-webdriver
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2020-02-19T15:20:09Z p_l: hah!
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2020-02-19T15:47:53Z jmercouris: directives for code in asd files based on if darwin or unix etc also work in lisp files?
2020-02-19T15:48:23Z jmercouris: I'm talking about is there something I can do like :if-feature within my source?
2020-02-19T15:51:29Z jmercouris: not possible? must I use asdf to load separate files?
2020-02-19T15:51:34Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_featur.htm
2020-02-19T15:52:30Z jmercouris: interesting that works
2020-02-19T15:52:49Z jmercouris: so if someone does (find :darwin *features*) on a Linux system, presumably it would return nil?
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2020-02-19T15:53:37Z jmercouris: thanks
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2020-02-19T16:32:05Z Shinmera: ELS 2020 registration is now open! https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2020/#registration
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2020-02-19T16:42:29Z Shinmera is very excited, but also worried
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2020-02-19T16:46:37Z jackdaniel disables temporarily Murphy's law
2020-02-19T16:49:13Z Shinmera: Can you hold that until after the conference is over? :)
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2020-02-19T16:58:35Z jackdaniel: I'd love to, I have my own selfish interest in doing that
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2020-02-19T17:22:52Z Odin-: There's an awkward typo on that page ... "sumbission deadline".
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2020-02-19T18:05:54Z flip214: I already said that!
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2020-02-19T18:16:06Z Shinmera: Thank god I didn't make that one.
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2020-02-19T19:19:20Z yoeljacobsen: With CFFI - how may I access the FILE* to stdin? It seems the naive (foreign-symbol-pointer "stdin") isn't the answer..
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2020-02-19T19:26:43Z pjb: Depends if you want to do it portably or not.
2020-02-19T19:27:23Z pjb: Non portable, edit-time way: you macroexpand FILE, which is a C MACRO!!! and  you convert the C _expression_ you get into CL FFI.
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2020-02-19T19:28:02Z pjb: Portable: you write C functions: void* get_stdin(){ return stdin; } etc. and call the with FFI.
2020-02-19T19:28:29Z pjb: Err, stdin, stdout and stderr are C MACROS too !!!
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2020-02-19T19:31:24Z White_Flame: of course, an alternative is to bore into *standard-output* via implementation specific reader functions, but that's a separate approach
2020-02-19T19:31:45Z pjb: yoeljacobsen: for example, on macOS, stdin expands to __stdinp, etc. But on Linux it's different.
2020-02-19T19:31:46Z White_Flame: s/output/input/
2020-02-19T19:32:29Z yoeljacobsen: How can I use *standard-output* with cffi? It's a CL stream, not a FILE*?
2020-02-19T19:32:55Z White_Flame: correct, you'd have to get into the underlying data via implementation specific structures
2020-02-19T19:33:03Z yoeljacobsen: pjb - stdin a macro? The definition is "extern FILE* stdin" in stdio.h
2020-02-19T19:33:32Z White_Flame: if you're using CFFI, I'd recommend pjb's method. I'm just positing alternatives, since the context is unknown
2020-02-19T19:33:53Z Bike: yoeljacobsen: in the C standard, it is a macro.
2020-02-19T19:34:51Z Bike: an implementation might make it a variable, but not all of them
2020-02-19T19:35:29Z White_Flame: of course, FILE is a macro as well, so a FILE* type doesn't quite exist when the rubber hits the road
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2020-02-19T19:36:44Z pjb: yoeljacobsen: about all the standard C identifiers can be C macros. Read the standard!
2020-02-19T19:36:54Z Odin-: Common Lisp implementation variance is nothing compared to C.
2020-02-19T19:39:07Z yoeljacobsen: Thanks you all. I wasn't aware of that.
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2020-02-19T20:08:20Z elderK: Moin all :
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2020-02-19T20:27:13Z mpontillo: Hi everyone. I'm getting started working on a LISP-based project and am looking for debugging tips. I'm seeing `debugger invoked on a LOAD-SYSTEM-DEFINITION-ERROR` via a `COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "cffi" "src" "cffi-sbcl">`.
2020-02-19T20:27:21Z mpontillo: How can I get more details about why the `COMPILE-FILE-ERROR` happened?
2020-02-19T20:28:22Z mpontillo: Weirdly, I only see the error when using the bundle that has been checked into our source control, not when I use `(ql:quickload)` to load the same system.
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2020-02-19T20:33:37Z phoe: mpontillo: the actual error should be printed above
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2020-02-19T20:39:52Z mpontillo: phoe: it doesn't print a specific error, hence my confusion. I was wondering if it was a more general issue with cffi-sbcl... but I can't explain why quickload works.
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2020-02-19T21:06:53Z elderK: Hey all, is this the correct place to ask questions regarding the aesthetics of Lisp code? That, and questions about organization of Lisp projects. Say, one package for the entire project vs. package-per-file and the.
2020-02-19T21:07:56Z phoe: elderK: sure, why not
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2020-02-19T21:20:36Z Shinmera: elderK: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/8r9jfc/one_package_per_or_file_project_somethingelse/e0q988k/
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2020-02-19T22:16:37Z elderK: Thank you, Shinmera.
2020-02-19T22:17:21Z elderK: Another question I have is regarding interfaces / protocols. Like, where should I best define the generics? How do I organize the files that contain a class, and the implementation of methods? What if a generic has a kind of useful meaning to more than one kind of family of objects?
2020-02-19T22:17:36Z elderK: Say, "reference." It could be used to reference memory, or reference an environment.
2020-02-19T22:18:02Z elderK: Another question, too, is whether it's possible to overload a generic in the sense of C++. Say, you have a generic that has one parameter, then the same named generic that has two.
2020-02-19T22:18:23Z White_Flame: honestly, that's why I don't use DEFGENERIC, and let the system deal with DEFMETHOD directly.  Then it works as a union of all methods regardless of who defined it first
2020-02-19T22:18:34Z Bike: that's not possible, no. generic functions only dispatch on their required arguments and all methods have to have the same number of required arguments.
2020-02-19T22:18:39Z White_Flame: SBCL is fine written that way, not sure if others demand the DEFGENERIC
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2020-02-19T22:19:03Z Bike: defmethod is defined to define a generic function implicitly if none exists, so that should work outside of sbcl, yes
2020-02-19T22:19:49Z Xach: AMOP has a pretty good example of a collection of generics working together in a sensible and useful way.
2020-02-19T22:20:03Z elderK: Another question is regarding dependencies in ASDF. I've started mentioning dependencies if and only if they are required at the time of build or load. But, it did make me wonder how you "forward declare" functions, generics, etc. As far as I have read, I have seen ftype.
2020-02-19T22:20:12Z Xach: defgeneric isn't just something you sprinkle around and get a protocol as a result. it requires design and thought.
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2020-02-19T22:20:31Z Bike: "It could be used to reference memory, or reference an environment." as for this, personally i'd say that if you have two conceptually unrelated functions with the same name, that's more like a pun than an actual generic function
2020-02-19T22:20:51Z elderK: Bike: Aye. I guess I could have reference and set!, and read and write for memory.
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2020-02-19T22:21:02Z elderK: Another issue is collisions with CL's names :P
2020-02-19T22:21:05Z Odin-: Common Lisp tends to be on the verbose end.
2020-02-19T22:21:18Z Bike: elderK: you don't need to forward declare functions. if a function isn't defined at compile time it's a style-warning at worst, but the compiler will just go "ok so you'll define it later, fine"
2020-02-19T22:21:40Z elderK: As for the aesthetic issue - I was wondering what kind of conventions exist for deaing with long parameter lists, or short parameter lists but with longish parameter names. How do you flow so that they are over multiple lines?
2020-02-19T22:21:44Z Bike: that said, defgeneric kind of is a forward declare, given that it has no actual code body
2020-02-19T22:21:48Z elderK: My "margin" is quite small, around 80 columns, due to visual issues.
2020-02-19T22:22:05Z elderK: Bike: I'd like to ensure my stuff builds/loads without warnings.
2020-02-19T22:22:09Z White_Flame: elderK: sometimes it's useful to have things in dynamic bindings if they're to be passed around a lot and not necessarily used by everything
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2020-02-19T22:22:33Z White_Flame: other than that, newlines & emacs indentation :-P
2020-02-19T22:22:58Z elderK: White_Flame: I don't use Emacs :(
2020-02-19T22:23:03Z Bike: if you have all your functions defined at top level in the same compilation unit there shouldn't be warnings. files are compilation units and i think asdf systems are also compilation units.
2020-02-19T22:23:07Z Bike: could be wrong though
2020-02-19T22:23:07Z elderK: I really wish the "SLIME indent rules" were codified in text somewhere.
2020-02-19T22:23:19Z White_Flame: emacs & slime are the definitive source for common lisp indentatino
2020-02-19T22:23:42Z White_Flame: however, the rules require runtime knowledge of macro definitions
2020-02-19T22:24:00Z Bike: well you don't need that for indenting a lambda list.
2020-02-19T22:24:06Z White_Flame: &rest vs &body, for instance, have differing indentations
2020-02-19T22:24:37Z White_Flame: Bike: right
2020-02-19T22:24:38Z elderK: :( I really wish SlimV did proper indentation.
2020-02-19T22:24:50Z elderK: Or again, that the rules were comprehensively documented.
2020-02-19T22:24:52Z White_Flame: although I don't know if &optional or &key stuff aligns in use by knowledge of the function spec
2020-02-19T22:25:08Z elderK: Alternatively, if I could install Emacs, and SLIME, and use it like a script to indent a file.
2020-02-19T22:25:14Z elderK: That way, I could learn over time the conventions and document them for others.
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2020-02-19T22:29:23Z elderK: Another question: Is it possible to define a global variable that is *not* dynamic?
2020-02-19T22:29:25Z elderK: I.e. Not special?
2020-02-19T22:29:33Z Shinmera: some implementations offer that
2020-02-19T22:30:03Z Bike: like sb-ext:defglobal. then you can't bind it even lexically, though.
2020-02-19T22:30:17Z Shinmera: https://shinmera.github.io/portability/#global-vars
2020-02-19T22:30:47Z Shinmera: should probably add a thingy to highlight the anchored part.
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2020-02-19T22:30:54Z Shinmera: One more ticket before sleep!
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2020-02-19T22:31:14Z Odin-: CCL, LispWorks and SBCL?
2020-02-19T22:31:27Z Odin-: That's not exactly widespread.
2020-02-19T22:31:32Z Shinmera: Might be more but the library hasn't been updated for it.
2020-02-19T22:31:38Z Odin-: Gotcha.
2020-02-19T22:32:17Z Odin-: Am I weird for thinking that dynamic binding is exactly what makes working with global variables sane?
2020-02-19T22:33:18Z Shinmera: I never thought it was insane to begin with
2020-02-19T22:33:32Z Shinmera: dynamic binding can help to encapsulate and it can help to obfuscate just the same.
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2020-02-19T22:34:03Z Shinmera: (eg localising a behaviour vs injecting potentially unexpected values)
2020-02-19T22:34:03Z White_Flame: elderK: older lisps had pure non-dynamically-bindable global variables as well as "global lexical" variables which is what we would call dynamic/special nowadays
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2020-02-19T22:34:45Z Bike: it's pretty common to use global special variables without binding them ever, so defglobal makes sense to me
2020-02-19T22:35:18Z Shinmera: yeah, eg a table that's just used to provide a namespace is a common pattern for me.
2020-02-19T22:35:39Z Bike: on a threaded implementation, local special bindings make special lookup a bit involved, so it's easy to imagine an actual performance hit from looking for special bindings when you know there aren't any
2020-02-19T22:36:05Z White_Flame: Odin-: moving from a language with only "plain" global variables to common lisp, yes the CL view on dynamic binding makes globals actually useful as opposed to dangerous & avoided
2020-02-19T22:36:50Z White_Flame: Bike: and I wish that there was a declaration for tls-only variables, to avoid the checking in the opposite scenario
2020-02-19T22:37:07Z elderK: So, back to long parameter lists. How do you guys handle them, indent them? Given that I do not have SLIME, it'd be useful to see a few examplese of the conventional formatting.
2020-02-19T22:37:19Z Odin-: Bike: Right. Those tend also to be cases where you are basically working with a constant, no?
2020-02-19T22:37:27Z elderK: And are dynamically scoped variables worth using, if you only use them to make functions less parametery?
2020-02-19T22:37:51Z White_Flame: Odin-: defconstant is cheap, and often a direct reference to the value of the constant is baked into usage locations
2020-02-19T22:37:57Z Bike: Odin-: Well not necessarily. For example what shinmera said - the value is a hash table that you're mutating a lot
2020-02-19T22:38:25Z Odin-: elderK: The language itself uses dynamically scoped variables quite extensively to customise behaviour; the printer, in particular, has a lot of tunables.
2020-02-19T22:38:37Z White_Flame: and as such, (defconstant +my-table+ (make-hash-table ...)) will work faster than (defvar *my-table* (make-hash-table ...))
2020-02-19T22:38:45Z White_Flame: (slightly faster)
2020-02-19T22:38:57Z elderK: White_Flame: Wouldn't that trigger a warning?
2020-02-19T22:39:04Z White_Flame: why would it?
2020-02-19T22:39:11Z Bike: evaluating it twice would
2020-02-19T22:39:12Z White_Flame: only if you run that DEFCONSTANT form multiple times
2020-02-19T22:39:26Z Bike: long parameter lists... let me see if i can't find an example for you
2020-02-19T22:39:27Z elderK: So, while developing.
2020-02-19T22:39:33Z elderK: Reloading the system, etc.
2020-02-19T22:39:43Z White_Flame: well, reloading the system is often done when you cycle the image anyway
2020-02-19T22:39:51Z Odin-: Bike: Fair enough, but the hash table identity presumably would remain constant.
2020-02-19T22:40:08Z White_Flame: and an extended defconstant that checks boundp first is often used to eliminate that warning, but leaves the original value in place like DEFVAR
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2020-02-19T22:40:23Z Bike: elderK: here's a definition of write-to-string https://pastebin.com/YAJcrqmP
2020-02-19T22:40:30Z Bike: with slime indentation. honestly it's still pretty ugly though
2020-02-19T22:41:18Z Shinmera: White_Flame: note that defconstant's value form may be evaluated at both compile and load time, and must provide a value EQL across both.
2020-02-19T22:41:57Z Odin- is reading about WebAssembly, and the formatting of those s-expressions ... yikes.
2020-02-19T22:42:41Z Bike: honestly having a lambda list on multiple lines never looks very good to me and i try to avoid it
2020-02-19T22:43:00Z Shinmera: down with the 80 rule.
2020-02-19T22:43:02Z Bike: starting the lambda list on a separate line below the "(defun whatever" line, even
2020-02-19T22:47:26Z elderK: Shinmera: Horizontal space is extremely precious to me, mostly because I need to use quite large font sizes.
2020-02-19T22:47:38Z elderK: Thanks Bike
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2020-02-19T22:48:09Z elderK: Bike: Is there a reason why they aren't all aligned after &key?
2020-02-19T22:48:23Z Bike: that's how slime does it
2020-02-19T22:48:58Z Bike: i use slime indentation because it's easy to not think about it and hit tab a lot, not because i have strong (or indeed, much of any) opinion on how it ought to be done
2020-02-19T22:49:00Z Shinmera: I'm honestly impressed there doesn't seem to be an editor around yet that does automated line breaking in a way that's smarter than just hard wrapping characters.
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2020-02-19T22:50:14Z Shinmera: As in, break at opportune boundaries and reindent on the virtual line.
2020-02-19T22:50:20Z Odin-: I presume you mean for code.
2020-02-19T22:50:24Z Shinmera: Yes.
2020-02-19T22:51:49Z Bike: lots of programming languages with meaningful newlines i guess? in C there's macro definitions
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2020-02-19T22:52:03Z Shinmera: Could always fall back to hard wrap for that
2020-02-19T22:52:21Z Odin-: Putting aside weird things like Python, I think the major reason is that every so often people using a different editor open your code.
2020-02-19T22:52:23Z Shinmera: but most languages have clear indentation and wrapping rules that should work for the vast majority of cases.
2020-02-19T22:52:59Z Shinmera: Odin-: every editor should have this so people can stop fucking around with manually forcing certain widths on everyone looking at it.
2020-02-19T22:53:03Z Odin-: This basically just boils down to "run a pretty printer on the buffer every now and then".
2020-02-19T22:53:12Z elderK: Bike: How does formatting differ for &key, &rest, &optional?
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2020-02-19T22:53:24Z Odin-: Shinmera: There are people who would disagree, harshly.
2020-02-19T22:53:37Z Odin-: Shinmera: And given that they exist, you're simply not going to get that.
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2020-02-19T22:54:00Z Shinmera: Like, there's no correct choice for width because everyone has different monitors, font sizes, preferences, etc.
2020-02-19T22:54:23Z Shinmera: So the editor should do it for you according to your preference.
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2020-02-19T22:54:38Z White_Flame: the problem is that source code is still a dumb stream of characters, instead of instantiated source code constructs
2020-02-19T22:54:57Z Odin-: Shinmera: In the general case, it cannot.
2020-02-19T22:54:58Z Bike: elderK: glancing at slime-cl-indent, looks like it should be the same except you can choose to align keywords differently
2020-02-19T22:55:05Z Bike: elderK: this is not something i know a lot about
2020-02-19T22:55:20Z Shinmera: Odin-: In general a lot of stuff cannot be solved. That's not interesting.
2020-02-19T22:55:39Z Odin-: Shinmera: So you are not making a general requirement?
2020-02-19T22:56:11Z Shinmera: I'm saying I'm surprised nobody seems to have tried this yet because I think a good enough solution could be written.
2020-02-19T22:56:41Z White_Flame: Shinmera: what would the save format be?  Would most lines in a file be modified by the editor anytime somebody uses a different screen width?  That's the problem with raw text
2020-02-19T22:56:53Z Odin-: I suspect there's a reason that code reformatting is still being done, mostly, as a batch task on already-written code.
2020-02-19T22:56:55Z elderK: Bike: Could you show me an example of SLIME indenting, using all the various parameter types?
2020-02-19T22:57:01Z White_Flame: the spacing is meaningful for the human, and saved in the file
2020-02-19T22:57:23Z Bike: i actually am about to leave, so no
2020-02-19T22:57:32Z White_Flame: elderK: a big difference is also at the call site, primarily with &body
2020-02-19T22:58:20Z Shinmera: White_Flame: there's nothing to modify. line wraps are virtual already. all you need to add to the soup is an indentation that only exists in the editor and can't be actually edited.
2020-02-19T22:58:24Z White_Flame: the IF construct indents differently between implementations that do (defmacro if (test then &optional else) ...) vs (defmacro if (test &body then-and-else) ...)
2020-02-19T22:58:45Z White_Flame: Shinmera: but again, what's stored in the file?
2020-02-19T22:58:52Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 26.1))
2020-02-19T22:58:56Z Shinmera: the same thing that already is stored
2020-02-19T22:59:07Z White_Flame: if you edit a file, does it have to re-infer what the on-disk indentation is for your edits?
2020-02-19T22:59:19Z Shinmera: ?
2020-02-19T22:59:22Z White_Flame: given that the user has independent indenation?
2020-02-19T22:59:32Z Shinmera: I'm not saying get rid of all line breaks or indentation
2020-02-19T22:59:44Z Bike quit (Quit: Bike)
2020-02-19T22:59:46Z Shinmera: I'm saying introduce indentation for the wrapped part of a virtual line only
2020-02-19T22:59:52Z Shinmera: but whatever I'm not interested in debating this
2020-02-19T23:00:05Z Shinmera: good night.
2020-02-19T23:00:14Z White_Flame: that would mean that the on-disk has no hard wrapping, xor you'd have a combination of file-wrapped and virtually-wrapped lines
2020-02-19T23:00:21Z Odin-: So you'd, what, tag each line you want to be soft-wrapped?
2020-02-19T23:01:07Z White_Flame: and the file wrapping can easily not match your virtual wrapping indentation, and thus need backporting or something
2020-02-19T23:01:17Z hsaziz quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2020-02-19T23:01:29Z White_Flame actually is interesting in this, though, even if Shinmera isn't ;)
2020-02-19T23:01:33Z White_Flame: *interested
2020-02-19T23:01:44Z White_Flame: it's an ages-old problem
2020-02-19T23:02:00Z elderK: I wonder how hard it would be to install a minimal Emacs, with Slime, such that I can format code.
2020-02-19T23:02:56Z Odin- mainly notes that the "recent batch" of languages takes an approach that says there is a standard coding style which tooling imposes.
2020-02-19T23:04:24Z White_Flame: elderK: if you're on windows, portacle is a bundling of those
2020-02-19T23:04:42Z Odin-: And it's rather interesting that 80 characters is actually significantly longer than most sources suggest is an appropriate line length.
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2020-02-19T23:05:22Z White_Flame: that's because most other languages have lots more syntax & punctuation, whereas lisp has hyphenated-words
2020-02-19T23:05:33Z Odin-: Err.
2020-02-19T23:05:41Z Odin-: No, no. For general text.
2020-02-19T23:06:14Z White_Flame: you mean natural language writing?  yeah, narrower columns are more readable there
2020-02-19T23:06:21Z White_Flame: for longer paragraphs
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2020-02-19T23:06:28Z White_Flame: but that's not source code
2020-02-19T23:06:57Z Odin-: The reason for it is scanning distance, so it's relevant.
2020-02-19T23:07:13Z White_Flame: indentation is the main scanning assistant in source code
2020-02-19T23:07:15Z Odin-: A "nothing goes beyond 80 columns" rule, however, is not.
2020-02-19T23:08:25Z Odin-: That and not having any individual line too long.
2020-02-19T23:09:22Z White_Flame: for me, the number of indivudual tokens in a line being too high is the issue, not a line that is syntactically too long because it has the same number of tokens of really long names
2020-02-19T23:10:22Z Odin-: *shrug*
2020-02-19T23:10:40Z Odin-: I think XP handles the whole issue surprisingly well.
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2020-02-20T02:53:37Z Drewikophe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:53:38Z Drewikophe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:53:39Z Drewikophe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:54:12Z Enookreve: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:54:13Z Enookreve: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:54:14Z Enookreve: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:54:17Z icliikr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:54:18Z icliikr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:54:19Z icliikr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:54:59Z aphieche: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:54:59Z aphieche: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:54:59Z aphieche: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:55:34Z gloshae: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:55:35Z gloshae: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:55:36Z gloshae: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:55:37Z eghetoigee: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:55:38Z eghetoigee: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:55:39Z eghetoigee: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:55:49Z Jokrisk: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:55:50Z Jokrisk: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:55:51Z ecielie: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:55:51Z Jokrisk: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:55:52Z ecielie: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:55:53Z ecielie: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:56:32Z Adreke: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:56:33Z Adreke: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:33Z Niaxeosw: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:34Z Adreke: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:34Z Niaxeosw: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:56:36Z Niaxeosw: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:56:39Z idrolaqu: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:40Z idrolaqu: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:41Z idrolaqu: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:56:47Z ogeivavafl: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:48Z Aqedecej: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:48Z ogeivavafl: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:49Z Aqedecej: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:49Z ogeivavafl: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:56:50Z Aqedecej: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:57:26Z najoneed: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:57:27Z najoneed: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:57:28Z najoneed: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:57:43Z Acaxecleny: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:57:44Z Acaxecleny: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:57:45Z Acaxecleny: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:58:09Z Iglapiom: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:58:10Z Iglapiom: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:58:11Z Iglapiom: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:58:29Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know, I don't think this spammer likes dongs a lot.
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2020-02-20T02:58:31Z Vecheqoa: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:58:32Z Vecheqoa: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:58:33Z Vecheqoa: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:58:43Z Qianepe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:58:44Z Qianepe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:58:45Z Qianepe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:59:33Z oketreswe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:59:34Z oketreswe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:59:35Z oketreswe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T02:59:47Z Oqueekiokr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:59:48Z Oqueekiokr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T02:59:49Z Oqueekiokr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T03:00:25Z beagr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:00:26Z beagr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:00:27Z beagr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T03:01:10Z Quisoalei: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:01:11Z Quisoalei: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:01:12Z Quisoalei: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T03:02:04Z ihiebe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:02:05Z ihiebe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:02:06Z ihiebe: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T03:02:55Z flafr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:02:56Z flafr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:02:57Z flafr: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T03:03:13Z Veacly: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:03:14Z Veacly: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
2020-02-20T03:03:15Z Veacly: hi, i like dongs, and i like them a lot
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2020-02-20T03:08:54Z eflaexie: hi
2020-02-20T03:08:55Z eflaexie: hi
2020-02-20T03:08:56Z eflaexie: hi
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2020-02-20T03:17:01Z Croiskae: hi
2020-02-20T03:17:02Z Croiskae: hi
2020-02-20T03:17:03Z Croiskae: hi
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2020-02-20T03:18:53Z LdBeth: Wtf
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2020-02-20T03:19:10Z akoana looks like a bot
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2020-02-20T04:04:09Z White_Flame: hopefully somebody was just testing some lisp/irc interaction?
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2020-02-20T04:06:13Z LdBeth: This bot failed in Turing test
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2020-02-20T04:14:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-20T04:19:59Z beach: elderK: Are you still around?
2020-02-20T04:22:00Z ebrasca: Morning!
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2020-02-20T06:28:39Z phoe: Looks like a spambot attack. Oh well, it has passed.
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2020-02-20T06:31:27Z beach: What could possibly be the purpose of doing something like that?
2020-02-20T06:31:40Z beach: Rhetorical question.  No answer required.
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2020-02-20T06:38:16Z White_Flame: I bet it has something to do with liking dongs a bit too much
2020-02-20T06:39:20Z beach: White_Flame: I think your advice of not using DEFGENERIC is not so great.
2020-02-20T06:39:57Z beach: If you use only DEFMETHOD, then a default lambda list will be created, and it doesn't necessarily have good parameter names.
2020-02-20T06:40:31Z beach: Furthermore, DEFGENERIC is part of the protocol definition, so it's good to have the protocol functions in one place.
2020-02-20T06:41:32Z White_Flame: well, when they span systems, and those systems might be independent, where should the defgeneric go?
2020-02-20T06:41:37Z beach: Finally, if you just make a typo in your DEFMETHOD, then a new generic function will be silently created, and you have a bug that can be very hard to find.  I advocate a warning if a DEFMETHOD is encountered with no preceding DEFGENERIC.
2020-02-20T06:42:13Z beach: Er, protocol functions don't span systems.
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2020-02-20T06:42:46Z White_Flame: that was basically the hypothetical as I understood it
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2020-02-20T06:44:46Z phoe: White_Flame: in a system of their own
2020-02-20T06:45:12Z White_Flame: yep, which is a pretty cluttery way of doing so
2020-02-20T06:45:13Z phoe: if you have a definition that spans across systems, I find it natural to have a protocol system of my own that concrete systems then depend on
2020-02-20T06:45:28Z phoe: why cluttery?
2020-02-20T06:45:46Z White_Flame: extra systems with very little in them, scattered around as dependencies
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2020-02-20T06:49:19Z phoe: I'm afraid we have nothing better - that's the direct implication of how ASDF dependencies work
2020-02-20T06:49:44Z phoe: the protocol definition needs to appear somewhere, so clients are then able to extend it
2020-02-20T06:50:00Z White_Flame: for me, and it's down a long rabbit hole, part of this is the lack of "understanding" (in the AI sense) of the computer as to what our programs want
2020-02-20T06:50:14Z phoe: if everything is in one system, then there's no problem; if everything is in N systems, then we are already rich enough to be able to afford N+1 systems
2020-02-20T06:51:07Z White_Flame: but then again, I use lisp to create GOFAI-as-a-programming-language
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2020-02-20T11:37:47Z splittist: Woot. Registered for ELS. When (what?) is the banquet?
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2020-02-20T11:48:02Z Shinmera: Monday evening, catering right at the venue.
2020-02-20T11:48:11Z Shinmera: (if everything goes right)
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2020-02-20T12:09:25Z splittist: Thanks
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2020-02-20T12:39:08Z jmercouris: I see that DELETE *MAY* modify a list
2020-02-20T12:39:14Z jmercouris: is there a way to force this behavior?
2020-02-20T12:39:25Z jmercouris: like (defparameter listy (list :a :b :c))
2020-02-20T12:39:41Z jmercouris: (remove :a listy)
2020-02-20T12:39:46Z jmercouris: then listy -> :b :c
2020-02-20T12:39:57Z Shinmera: it's a function, so it cannot possibly do that.
2020-02-20T12:40:25Z jmercouris: I don't see why a function could not modify a list
2020-02-20T12:40:28Z phoe: jmercouris: alexandria:deletef
2020-02-20T12:40:43Z Shinmera: because that's not modifying the list.
2020-02-20T12:40:50Z phoe: you want to mutate places, not lists
2020-02-20T12:41:19Z jmercouris: says here in the hyperspec: "delete, delete-if, and delete-if-not are like remove, remove-if, and remove-if-not respectively, but they may modify
2020-02-20T12:41:20Z jmercouris: sequence."
2020-02-20T12:41:51Z jmercouris: can you guys please explain what you mean
2020-02-20T12:41:59Z jmercouris: I don't understand how removing an element from the list is not modifying the list
2020-02-20T12:42:34Z phoe: jmercouris: (setf place (delete item place))
2020-02-20T12:42:40Z phoe: which is exactly what alexandria:deletef does
2020-02-20T12:43:11Z jmercouris: yeah, that's what I'm doing in my source code now
2020-02-20T12:43:26Z jmercouris: I just don't understand why we couldn't write a ffunction to traverse the list and remove elements
2020-02-20T12:43:50Z jmercouris: we would just have to make the cdr before the element point to the car of the element after the one we don't want
2020-02-20T12:44:06Z d4ryus: jmercouris: because its a linked list, and you cannot delete the first element
2020-02-20T12:44:32Z jmercouris: oh I see
2020-02-20T12:44:37Z d4ryus: jmercouris: well, you can, but you need an assignment to update lispy
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2020-02-20T12:44:41Z jmercouris: so we must ultimately setf no matter what
2020-02-20T12:44:56Z phoe: if you want to delete the only element from a one-element list, then you cannot magically turn a cons into a NIL
2020-02-20T12:45:05Z phoe: that is why you must mutate the place that refers to the list
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2020-02-20T12:45:11Z jmercouris: right OK
2020-02-20T12:45:14Z jmercouris: that makes sense now, thank you
2020-02-20T12:45:29Z d4ryus: correct, or have another level of redirection
2020-02-20T12:46:06Z phoe: for all other cases, sure thing, you can cut and glue the conses in any way you'd like - I even heard that someone prefers it that way
2020-02-20T12:46:14Z phoe: but I prefer working with places
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2020-02-20T13:27:19Z flip214: how about that for deleting from a one-element-list?    (cdr (delete item (list* (gensym) list)))
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2020-02-20T13:34:42Z phoe: flip214: you still need to setf the place
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2020-02-20T14:13:12Z flip214: phoe: only if the place is important... eg. with single-assignment it isn't ;)
2020-02-20T14:14:08Z flip214: when doing CFFI:FOREIGN-ARRAY-TO-LISP I tell it '(:array :uchar 15), but it returns one with :ELEMENT-TYPE T.
2020-02-20T14:14:30Z flip214: Yeah, I can pass the correct element-type in as additional argument, but why doesn't it derive that itself from :uchar?
2020-02-20T14:15:05Z phoe: flip214: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/commit/8a2bd25505de055967cbf13dfec279cf232dc0ae
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2020-02-20T14:15:53Z phoe: As for why it doesn't infer it itself - dunno.
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2020-02-20T16:29:42Z userself: does anyone know where to start with common lisp?
2020-02-20T16:30:16Z shinohai: Usually inside a terminal.
2020-02-20T16:30:38Z paul0: userself, practical common lisp is a good start, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2020-02-20T16:31:31Z beach: userself: I agree with paul0.  PCL is probably a good start.
2020-02-20T16:32:05Z beach: userself: You need a good programming environment, or you will quickly be disgusted.  Currently, the best one appears to be Portacle.
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2020-02-20T16:32:27Z _death: https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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2020-02-20T16:48:31Z beach: I guess userself was not pleased with our recommendations.
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2020-02-20T17:01:37Z ckonstanski: I started my lisp journey with Practical Common Lisp. Not only was it a great introduction to lisp, it also offered some sort of easy-to-use solution for getting a lisp environment spun up. Was it called maclisp or something? Never used it. Install lisp, configure quicklisp and install slime in your emacs. What more is there to do?
2020-02-20T17:01:58Z Bike: lisp in a box, i think
2020-02-20T17:02:05Z Bike: maclisp is an older lisp
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2020-02-20T17:03:13Z rixard: Yeah, Maclisp is a version of Lisp that ran on PDP-6 and PDP-10
2020-02-20T17:03:48Z beach: rixard: And Multics.  Very important, because Multics Emacs was written in Maclisp.
2020-02-20T17:04:18Z rixard: beach: Thanks for the correction ^^
2020-02-20T17:04:23Z beach: Sure.
2020-02-20T17:04:26Z ckonstanski: Conirmed: Lisp in a Box
2020-02-20T17:04:48Z ckonstanski: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html
2020-02-20T17:05:05Z bitmapper: i find portacle makes a good replacement for lisp in a box
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2020-02-20T18:05:54Z Shinmera: yea, lispbox has rotted away and won't (and also never did) run on some systems.
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2020-02-20T19:05:59Z _death: gn
2020-02-20T19:06:18Z _death: oops, meant to M-x first
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2020-02-20T19:26:55Z White_Flame: random style question:  Where do you put a comment describing the first binding of a LET clause?  (let (;; Foo \n   (foo ...)  ?
2020-02-20T19:27:28Z Shinmera: depends on how long it is, a ; after the binding clause on the same line can also work.
2020-02-20T19:27:43Z White_Flame: yeah, I tend not to use right-comments, but rather top-comments
2020-02-20T19:28:18Z White_Flame: I just found code where it was (let (\n  ;; Foo \n  (foo ...
2020-02-20T19:28:27Z White_Flame: which seemed equally strange
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2020-02-20T19:28:50Z White_Flame: since lone open parens at the end of lines is extremely rare
2020-02-20T19:28:59Z Shinmera: yeah I wouldn't do that.
2020-02-20T19:29:22Z Shinmera: you could also do a (let (foo) ;; ... (setf foo ..)) I guess
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2020-02-20T19:36:20Z _death: White_Flame: I had a case like this recently.. it felt icky, sure, but I managed to get over it, since it happens so rarely.. in fact I think later on the code structure changed and it was no longer an issue
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2020-02-20T19:38:24Z _death: there are still cases like this in the code, but with empty cond clause bodies
2020-02-20T19:38:50Z White_Flame: yeah, I turn those into explicit NILs
2020-02-20T19:40:08Z _death: the comment is usually ;; So and so, do nothing.
2020-02-20T19:40:49Z _death: but like I said, I don't let it bother me too much :)
2020-02-20T19:41:17Z White_Flame: btw, what code base are you working on?
2020-02-20T19:41:49Z White_Flame: as the only place I've seen empty cond causes so far was cyc stuff
2020-02-20T19:42:09Z _death: personal stuff... atm probabilistic graphical models stuff (I mentioned it some time ago)
2020-02-20T19:42:21Z White_Flame: ah, cool
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2020-02-20T20:24:26Z pjb: White_Flame: note that you can also use #| comments |# that you can place anywhere.  So put it where it's most convenient!.
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2020-02-20T21:09:59Z phoe: oh goodness
2020-02-20T21:10:08Z phoe: I just stumbled upon a bug in pgloader
2020-02-20T21:10:17Z phoe: Only after writing a ticket I realized that I have already reported it
2020-02-20T21:10:20Z phoe: And already fixed it
2020-02-20T21:10:33Z phoe: And already forgot to finish cleaning up my original PR that fixes this issue
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2020-02-20T21:25:20Z phoe: And already forgot that I fixed it both in postmodern and in pgloader, except I did not finish submitting both of the PRs
2020-02-20T21:25:29Z phoe: aaaaaaaaah
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2020-02-20T21:46:49Z phoe: oh well, three bugs fixed today
2020-02-20T21:46:52Z phoe: good night #lisp
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2020-02-21T00:13:27Z pjb: phoe: perhaps you should consult, for those memory loses…
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2020-02-21T04:15:33Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-21T04:18:29Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach
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2020-02-21T07:07:49Z Ofepraidr: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:07:50Z Ofepraidr: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:07:51Z Ofepraidr: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
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2020-02-21T07:08:00Z piph: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:08:01Z piph: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:08:02Z piph: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
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2020-02-21T07:08:36Z pheowofr: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:08:37Z pheowofr: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:08:38Z pheowofr: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
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2020-02-21T07:11:49Z Oblo: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:11:51Z Oblo: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:11:51Z Oblo: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
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2020-02-21T07:12:48Z ck_: I don't think 4chan antics and IRC are a very good match. But good luck.
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2020-02-21T07:15:12Z aphoi: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:15:13Z aphoi: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
2020-02-21T07:15:14Z aphoi: hi, please kindly stay out of #freenode. the pool is closed. thanks.
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2020-02-21T07:17:23Z N00BMAN: test
2020-02-21T07:17:42Z N00BMAN: woah you can actually talk in here too, that makes three whole channels
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2020-02-21T07:18:21Z lambda-smith: Trying to find channel that let you speak without having to register a nick?
2020-02-21T07:18:26Z N00BMAN: i don't see any spammers
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2020-02-21T07:18:48Z ebrasca: I can give you paste of last 3 minutes.
2020-02-21T07:18:51Z N00BMAN: yeah because i'm not giving the admins here my email address
2020-02-21T07:19:06Z lambda-smith: Yeah, we just got 5 spammers
2020-02-21T07:19:13Z N00BMAN: nah i'believe you
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2020-02-21T07:22:10Z N00BMAN: wait the quit message spammer?
2020-02-21T07:22:13Z N00BMAN: what a noob
2020-02-21T07:22:31Z lambda-smith: yep, that's them
2020-02-21T07:22:33Z phoe: I wonder if #lisp shouldn't get mode +r
2020-02-21T07:22:47Z N00BMAN: don't let dolphin boy win
2020-02-21T07:22:48Z lambda-smith: I let they are the reason 99% of channels on freenode are +r now
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2020-02-21T07:22:54Z phoe: that would be a backwards incompatible change though and possibly disconnect a lot of people
2020-02-21T07:23:14Z phoe: but, on the other hand, kids are having lots of fun without it set
2020-02-21T07:23:26Z phoe: Xach: what do you say
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2020-02-21T07:25:25Z N00BMAN: wait thats not dolphin boy thats the one with the bad php based random name generator
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2020-02-21T07:26:22Z N00BMAN: zeroeffortman
2020-02-21T07:26:43Z lambda-smith: Hehe, that's such a silly name
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2020-02-21T07:27:32Z phoe: zeroeffortran
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2020-02-21T07:33:48Z Shinmera: clearly we should switch to a lisp based service instead
2020-02-21T07:33:53Z asarch: Common Lisp interface for Motif?
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2020-02-21T07:50:28Z beach: asarch: Why would you want such a thing?
2020-02-21T07:50:43Z asarch: Just wondering
2020-02-21T07:51:16Z jdz: Just for the record, I use circe (an emacs IRC client), and I don't see any of the join/leave messages (unless they're relevant).
2020-02-21T07:51:33Z asarch: I found a good tutorial for writing Motif-based applications with the C programming language
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2020-02-21T07:52:48Z asarch: Remember those days when OpenSolaris was available? CDE was great, right?
2020-02-21T07:53:01Z no-defun-allowed: Not really.
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2020-02-21T08:00:23Z edgar-rft: I still prefer FVWM over CDE :-)
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2020-02-21T08:05:04Z aeth: 90s Unix/Linux looked so bad compared to Windows 95, which was amazing. Still is. Windows UI peaked with 95/98/2000
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2020-02-21T08:05:16Z aeth: Well, besides that brief trend where they tried to embed IE as your desktop background...
2020-02-21T08:05:43Z aeth: I think that was Win 98, so I guess you could say it was bimodal with Win 95 and Win 2000
2020-02-21T08:06:34Z Odin-: asarch: As I recall, GNOME was the default interface on that.
2020-02-21T08:06:40Z aeth: imo, Lisp UIs should be as close to Windows 2000 as legally allowed. Modern is ugly.
2020-02-21T08:07:00Z Odin-: Although I'm not about to start looking for my install disc to verify that.
2020-02-21T08:07:36Z asarch: Actually, JVM was the default on the last release, but CDE was available as an option
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2020-02-21T08:11:09Z asarch: Mate is now the defaul in OpenIndiana
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2020-02-21T08:13:00Z Odin-: I'm fairly sure the live DVD I got from Sun had GNOME running by default ... but I'm not sure where that is now. :p
2020-02-21T08:14:38Z asarch: I have an original release three releases before the project was closed
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2020-02-21T08:20:50Z asarch whispers: https://ayera.dl.sourceforge.net/project/archiveos/o/opensolaris/osol-0906-x86.iso
2020-02-21T08:22:26Z phoe whispers: #lispcafe
2020-02-21T08:22:43Z asarch: Sorry, sorry
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2020-02-21T08:53:59Z N00BMAN: ZzzZZzZZzZzZZZz
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2020-02-21T10:18:45Z madrik: What unit testing packages are available?  I've only used the MIT RT package.
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2020-02-21T10:21:09Z Shinmera: There's a new one being made about every week.
2020-02-21T10:21:12Z White_Flame: FiveAM is popular
2020-02-21T10:21:26Z no-defun-allowed: If you breathe too hard, you might make one by mistake.
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2020-02-21T10:21:57Z no-defun-allowed: Currently I have used FiveAM and Parachute, and will probably slowly port my tests to the latter.
2020-02-21T10:22:22Z White_Flame: see also https://cliki.net/test%20framework
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2020-02-21T10:24:59Z phoe: madrik: what kinds of features do you need from a testing framework?
2020-02-21T10:25:42Z phoe: if you want your test framework to fit on a single page, use 1AM
2020-02-21T10:25:53Z phoe: if you want your test framework to fit in a single line, use CL:ASSERT
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2020-02-21T10:26:53Z phoe: if you want some actual management for your tests and test objects, use fiveam or parachute
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2020-02-21T10:27:44Z phoe: if you want to be able to run your tests when when some invariants change, use proctor
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2020-02-21T10:28:11Z phoe: if you want to upset #lisp, use your own hand-rolled test framework that you then upload to Quicklisp
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2020-02-21T10:29:23Z madrik: Well, my present uses are very simple.  Typically, a function is followed by a number of tests.
2020-02-21T10:29:41Z phoe: parachute works for me
2020-02-21T10:29:52Z madrik: I can run these either by name, one by one, or I can call DO-TESTS (from RT).
2020-02-21T10:31:19Z madrik: Right now, I'm mildly annoyed that if I load several packages with defined tests, I may have missed how to selectively run tests for a given package; every test in each package runs.
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2020-02-21T10:33:49Z phoe: test suites are doable with parachute and fiveam
2020-02-21T10:34:03Z phoe: so you can only run a subset of all tests ever defined
2020-02-21T10:34:20Z madrik: phoe: I'll take a look at fiveam.
2020-02-21T10:35:02Z jackdaniel is pleasently surprised that there is lorem-ipsum for common lisp available, thanks phoe 
2020-02-21T10:35:38Z phoe bows
2020-02-21T10:36:09Z phoe: I still can't get over the fact that I didn't listen to someone who wanted me to name that system lorem-lispum instead
2020-02-21T10:36:18Z phoe: but, I guess discoverability is better with lorem ipsum
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2020-02-21T10:37:29Z madrik: White_Flame: Thanks for the link. I didn't know there were so many on offer.
2020-02-21T10:37:51Z phoe: madrik: the worrying thing is that this number tends to grow
2020-02-21T10:37:57Z madrik: Does anyone have a standout favorite?
2020-02-21T10:38:14Z White_Flame: the wiki really needs to rank things, but that's opinionated and requires updating
2020-02-21T10:38:25Z phoe: parachute fan here
2020-02-21T10:38:33Z Shinmera: madrik: I'm biased, since I wrote Parachute
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2020-02-21T10:41:05Z madrik: Shinmera: What features recommend Parachute?
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2020-02-21T10:43:37Z madrik: I checked my Debian system for available packages.  I see FiveAM and Franz's ptester besides MIT's RT.
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2020-02-21T10:43:53Z madrik: Not that getting extra-Debian packages is an issue.
2020-02-21T10:44:07Z Shinmera: Most people seem to choose their framework based on whatever surface syntax they prefer. Parachute was made with the intention of being able to usurp all others by providing an extensible protocol.
2020-02-21T10:44:31Z Shinmera: So it provides 'compatibility layers' that emulate the surface syntax of other frameworks, for instance.
2020-02-21T10:45:20Z madrik: Shinmera: I suppose I don't have to ask whether Parachute is self-testing.
2020-02-21T10:45:39Z Shinmera: it does not have a test suite to test itself, much to my great shame.
2020-02-21T10:45:52Z Shinmera: I want it to have one, but lack the time at this, uh, time.
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2020-02-21T10:48:19Z White_Flame: how would you know if your tests work?
2020-02-21T10:48:53Z Shinmera: when it says that they pass of course :)
2020-02-21T10:49:10Z White_Flame: I mean, how would you know if your tests for your testing suite are bug free? :)
2020-02-21T10:49:34Z White_Flame: #1=(turtles . #1#)
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2020-02-21T10:49:35Z Shinmera: that's the great question for all tests isn't it
2020-02-21T10:50:00Z scymtym: fiveam has a simple but very useful quickcheck-like system for random testing of properties which seems to be overlooked a lot
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2020-02-21T10:51:15Z phoe: madrik: *DON'T* use packages from apt. Uninstall everything from there and use quicklisp exclusively.
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2020-02-21T10:51:35Z phoe: apt and QL tend not to work well together.
2020-02-21T10:51:41Z no-defun-allowed: Yep, that. Debian tends to provide quite old software, too.
2020-02-21T10:52:08Z phoe: The only thing you can use from apt is implementations, like sbcl.
2020-02-21T10:52:23Z phoe: The rest isn't worth the heisenbugs.
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2020-02-21T10:52:54Z jackdaniel: another pleasent surprise: closure seems to more or less work with slight modifications on current McCLIM
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2020-02-21T10:54:42Z phoe: that's nice news!
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2020-02-21T10:57:31Z phoe: will there be screenshots?
2020-02-21T10:57:56Z jackdaniel: why not, give me a second
2020-02-21T10:58:24Z jackdaniel: https://imgur.com/qk7yeam.png
2020-02-21T10:59:22Z phoe: <3
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2020-02-21T11:10:35Z LdBeth: looks nice
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2020-02-21T11:17:15Z LdBeth: I suppose it should work on Genera Lisp Machine?
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2020-02-21T11:17:46Z jackdaniel: I would be surprised if it had worked without some modifications
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2020-02-21T12:05:10Z madrik: phoe: I have not used quicklisp. From my reading, it is a package manager for Common Lisp, isn't it?
2020-02-21T12:05:42Z jackdaniel: packages in common lisp have different meaning, but in a common "unixy" jargon -- yes, it is
2020-02-21T12:05:44Z madrik: I mostly use the Apt repositories (and Debian) as a fire-and-forget setup.
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2020-02-21T12:06:13Z madrik: jackdaniel: Indeed.
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2020-02-21T12:08:26Z madrik: Perhaps my use is uncommon, if not weird, but I don't use the Emacs package manager either.  A while ago, I tried to get Magit from MELPA, but the dependencies weren't properly managed.  So I just reverted to Apt.
2020-02-21T12:08:52Z Shinmera: well you will get burnt if you try to use apt for lisp stuff.
2020-02-21T12:09:19Z Shinmera: you're also missing out on about 99% of all libraries.
2020-02-21T12:09:50Z madrik: scymtym: What is the 'quickcheck-like system for random testing of properties' about?  Could you please expand?
2020-02-21T12:10:39Z madrik: Shinmera: I understand that.
2020-02-21T12:12:38Z madrik: I suppose I could say that my position is to have a provisional, stable base to reach out from.
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2020-02-21T12:13:09Z madrik: This position has not been fortified against objections.
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2020-02-21T12:13:56Z scymtym: madrik: you specify how to generate random inputs and properties that must be true for all inputs and the frameworks tries to find inputs that violate the properties. an example that uses a simple property but a complex random input generator is https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/test/reader/quasiquote-macro.lisp#L42 (generator:
2020-02-21T12:13:56Z scymtym: https://github.com/s-expressionists/Eclector/blob/master/test/reader/gen-quasiquote.lisp#L53 )
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2020-02-21T12:15:26Z madrik: On a related topic, it appears that a substantial portion of Unix-like Lisp users run Debian-based systems, including Ubuntu.  Are the Red Hat and Suse families less conducive to Lisp hacking?  Or do more commercial outfits prefer them?
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2020-02-21T12:15:52Z madrik: E.g. I notice few people saying they run Fedora.
2020-02-21T12:16:06Z Odin-: I believe that's reflective of the overall population.
2020-02-21T12:16:18Z madrik: scymtym: That's _very_ interesting.  Thanks.
2020-02-21T12:17:03Z scymtym: madrik: i guess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuickCheck is the broader context
2020-02-21T12:17:08Z Odin-: Ubuntu has, for quite a while now, been the "this is what is the assumed setup" distro.
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2020-02-21T12:32:21Z phoe: madrik: please start using quicklisp instead. apt sources are often outdated and are not widely supported.
2020-02-21T12:32:58Z phoe: Also, I don't think other linuxes are less friendly for Lisp. Implementations run anywhere, Quicklisp runs everywhere. Debian and its derivs are simply popular.
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2020-02-21T12:34:40Z madrik: phoe: Hmm. I will look at quicklisp.
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2020-02-21T12:38:17Z Cymew: Canonical/Ubuntu has made an effort to conquer the desktop, that's probably why it's so common.
2020-02-21T12:38:47Z Cymew: I use Fedora as I work maily within the RH ecosystem.
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2020-02-21T12:50:02Z edgar-rft: i think Ubuntu / Suse / Fedora are heavily GUI desktop oriented Linux distos while the very first thing a progammer does on a GUI desktop is opening a shell window :-) I myself am using Debian because it's dead easy to reduce the GUI stuff to the minimum I need for working with aufio / video/ images and all the rest I do either in Emacs or in a shell window.
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2020-02-21T13:46:12Z Xach: phoe: sorry i missed it
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2020-02-21T13:50:07Z beach: jackdaniel: That's great news about Closure.
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2020-02-21T14:52:07Z lf94: Hey guys, just diving into the curiousity that is lisp once again like everyone does. Question: is there any lisp that has implemented a type system in itself?
2020-02-21T14:52:45Z lf94: Secondly: is there a type system where you can define the most basic of structures? Like integers and floating point?
2020-02-21T14:53:38Z lf94: For this I was thinking using regular expressions could work well, but no, there are some limitations. Like defining the order of integers...
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2020-02-21T14:56:40Z shidima: Any one who has worked with hunchentoot here?
2020-02-21T14:56:51Z Bike: lf94: i'm not sure what exactly you mean, but (a) this channel is about common lisp specifically, and (b) it has a standard type system.
2020-02-21T14:57:54Z shidima: Well, its a common lisp library right?
2020-02-21T14:58:30Z shidima: ah, nvm.
2020-02-21T14:58:42Z Bike: i wasn't talking to you. but yes i'm sure people are around who have used with hunchentoot. i've only barely worked with it and probably can't help you, sorry.
2020-02-21T14:59:45Z shidima: yeah, sorry. Was a bit presumptuous from me :)
2020-02-21T15:00:02Z shidima: *off
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2020-02-21T15:01:47Z Shinmera: just state your problem. it's annoying to have to wait to see whether one could help or not. people with or without hunchentoot experience may or may not be able to help you.
2020-02-21T15:03:38Z shidima: I'm trying to make define a handler for the base uri / , but it keeps giving me the default hunchentoot page.
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2020-02-21T15:07:15Z Shinmera: if you want to simply catch all requests ever, you should define an acceptor instead.
2020-02-21T15:08:19Z shidima: I want to run something like a home page on / and a contacts page on /contact
2020-02-21T15:08:39Z Shinmera: I see. How are you defining your handler?
2020-02-21T15:09:07Z shidima: (define-easy-handler (home :uri "/") ()
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2020-02-21T15:11:11Z Shinmera: just doing that with a string for return and starting hunchentoot does give me the correct string page.
2020-02-21T15:11:17Z Shinmera: So you must be doing something else wrong.
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2020-02-21T15:12:27Z shidima: Ok, ill look into it some more than. Thanks for confirming the code should work tho.
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2020-02-21T15:14:21Z shidima: yes (define-easy-handler (home :uri "/") ()  "Hello World!") does work :|
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2020-02-21T15:38:42Z pfdietz: Is there an existing library for "self specializing methods"?   These would be methods that, when given parameters in a particular set of classes, would produce a specialized version of themselves for those classes.
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2020-02-21T15:45:11Z lf94: I'm looking around the Internet but can't find much on the subject: how's memory usage in lisp vs other compiled languages?
2020-02-21T15:45:21Z lf94: Pretty good? Decent?
2020-02-21T15:46:43Z pfdietz: It can depend on the garbage collector.   Copying collectors, for example, might copy between two large spaces, which might double the memory footprint.   But all modern languages with GC face this issue.
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2020-02-21T15:47:27Z beach: lf94: Wow, several problems here.
2020-02-21T15:47:42Z beach: lf94: First, memory use depends on the implementation, not the language.
2020-02-21T15:47:54Z pfdietz: A very old concern about Common Lisp was that all the standard parts of it took up a lot of space.  But now that footprint is quite small, comparatively.
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2020-02-21T15:48:05Z lf94: beach I think it can very much depend on the language.
2020-02-21T15:48:16Z beach: lf94: Second, there is no such thing as a compiled language.  Whether a compiler or an interpreter is used, is a function of the implementation, not the language.
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2020-02-21T15:48:34Z pfdietz: (and the distinction continues to blur)
2020-02-21T15:48:36Z lf94: ...come on
2020-02-21T15:48:46Z beach: lf94: It very much depends on the strategy of garbage collection used by the implementation.
2020-02-21T15:49:23Z lf94: I guess I'm looking for "eager" garbage collectors
2020-02-21T15:49:24Z jackdaniel: lf94: these points are important in Common Lisp case, because there is five or more actively maintained implementations with very different traits
2020-02-21T15:49:44Z jackdaniel: (and I'm talking only about free software, there are also commercial vendors)
2020-02-21T15:49:47Z beach: lf94: Third, you may want to study the works of Jim Newton and Didier Verna.  They have type descriptors for Common Lisp that work like regular expressions on lists.
2020-02-21T15:50:04Z lf94: Cool :)
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2020-02-21T15:50:22Z beach: lf94: What is an "eager" garbage collector?
2020-02-21T15:50:37Z lf94: beach one that doesn't collect garbage periodically but as soon as it can
2020-02-21T15:50:51Z jmercouris: what's the difference between periodically and as soon as it can?
2020-02-21T15:50:52Z jackdaniel: what is "as soon as it can"? after each assign operation?
2020-02-21T15:50:56Z lf94: sure
2020-02-21T15:51:03Z lf94: or after each function end
2020-02-21T15:51:09Z jmercouris: after each function call?
2020-02-21T15:51:13Z jmercouris: wow, that's expensive
2020-02-21T15:51:16Z beach: lf94: Such a thing does not exist, unless you mean reference counting, which is not used by any Common Lisp implementation that I know of, and for good reasons.
2020-02-21T15:51:33Z lf94: expensive for time; but keeps memory down no?
2020-02-21T15:51:43Z jmercouris: keep memory down? then don't allocate things
2020-02-21T15:51:46Z beach: lf94: And doesn't work for cyclic structures.
2020-02-21T15:51:50Z jackdaniel: lf94: is there a particular memory constraint you have in mind?
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2020-02-21T15:52:11Z jmercouris: just use memory efficient structures, and only allocate what you need
2020-02-21T15:52:13Z lf94: No no, I'm just super on the edge about using lisp
2020-02-21T15:52:16Z Shinmera: shidima: are you perhaps not returning anything from the function? I believe returning NIL will cause hunchentoot to skip the dispatch.
2020-02-21T15:52:18Z jackdaniel: usual thing to do is to preallocate heap and work from there
2020-02-21T15:52:27Z lf94: I guess lisp is smart about using the stack?
2020-02-21T15:52:34Z jmercouris: if this is the deciding factor about whether you will choose lisp or not, save everyone's time and just learn rust
2020-02-21T15:52:37Z lf94: "lisp is smart"
2020-02-21T15:52:39Z lf94: I mean
2020-02-21T15:52:47Z lf94: It must be a common thing to do, as a lisper?
2020-02-21T15:52:52Z jackdaniel: if something may be allocated on the stack, it is very possible that optimizing implementations would do that
2020-02-21T15:53:00Z lf94: >should be common thing in any lang
2020-02-21T15:53:06Z lf94: I'm not sure how else to express myself.
2020-02-21T15:53:25Z jackdaniel: stack is used extensively in common lisp implementations I'm aware of
2020-02-21T15:53:29Z lf94: jmercouris: I know rust. X)
2020-02-21T15:53:36Z jmercouris: OK, then no problem, just use that
2020-02-21T15:53:39Z lf94: jmercouris: My pull to lisp is its simplicity
2020-02-21T15:53:54Z jmercouris: then don't ask questions that would greatly complicate your program!
2020-02-21T15:54:01Z lf94: X)
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2020-02-21T15:54:27Z jackdaniel: Common Lisp is not simple
2020-02-21T15:54:29Z jackdaniel: it is easy to use
2020-02-21T15:54:42Z lf94: How big is Common Lisp interpreter ?
2020-02-21T15:54:48Z jackdaniel: its syntax is simple if we put aside reader macros
2020-02-21T15:54:51Z jmercouris: how big is a pizza?
2020-02-21T15:54:58Z jackdaniel: lf94: it is, more or less, 120 big
2020-02-21T15:55:08Z lf94: jmercouris: a small, medium, large?
2020-02-21T15:55:10Z jmercouris: the question is meaningless as there is no single implementation
2020-02-21T15:55:10Z lf94: :)
2020-02-21T15:55:19Z beach: lf94: You may want to look at the GC literature.  There are some formulas that relate memory overhead and GC frequency for different types of GC techniques.
2020-02-21T15:55:35Z lf94: Sounds like a plan :)
2020-02-21T15:55:44Z jmercouris: a way to list slot accessors ffor an object?
2020-02-21T15:55:52Z beach: lf94: I recommend "The Garbage Collection Handbook", by Jones.
2020-02-21T15:55:58Z lf94: My fear is GC is overkill - I only hear about "sweep-mark" GC all the time for embedded systems
2020-02-21T15:56:16Z lf94: My knowledge of GC is fragmented as hell.
2020-02-21T15:56:26Z jmercouris: why do you care so much if you know nothing about GC?
2020-02-21T15:56:34Z jmercouris: why does this even matter?
2020-02-21T15:56:36Z lf94: I don't know /nothing/
2020-02-21T15:56:55Z jmercouris: either learn Lisp or don't, questions about performance characteristics aren't going to be the silver bullet to draw you to it
2020-02-21T15:56:56Z lf94: It's fragmented, and I'm hoping talking a bit here will fill some more holes around my concerns :P
2020-02-21T15:57:04Z lf94: Yes, you are right.
2020-02-21T15:57:15Z lf94: I need to do my own experiments...I am being lazily, unrightfully so.
2020-02-21T15:57:26Z lf94: s/lazily/lazy/
2020-02-21T15:57:26Z jmercouris: experience it, and decide if you want to learn it
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2020-02-21T15:58:02Z jmercouris: reminds me of the guy who "knew" some Perl and wanted to see the equivalent in Lisp and _death wrote a funny little program :-)
2020-02-21T15:58:18Z beach: lf94: If you don't appreciate the superior performance in terms of execution time of automatic memory management in the form of a tracing garbage collector compared to that of reference counting or manual memory management, I think you should stay away from implementations that use tracing garbage collectors.
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2020-02-21T15:59:21Z jmercouris: must I use MOP to figure out accessors?
2020-02-21T15:59:27Z beach: lf94: There is always a trade-off between memory use and execution time.  If you are that short of memory and don't care about execution time, garbage collection is not for you.
2020-02-21T15:59:37Z lf94: So moving away from memory: are there any type systems written in lisp, and then used in a lisp?
2020-02-21T15:59:37Z beach: jmercouris: Probably, yes.
2020-02-21T15:59:52Z jmercouris: I was hoping for alexandria:list-slot-accessors :-D
2020-02-21T16:00:06Z lf94: beach but what about the case of say, picolisp?
2020-02-21T16:00:07Z beach: jmercouris: What is wrong with closer-mop:...?
2020-02-21T16:00:14Z jmercouris: nothing
2020-02-21T16:00:18Z lf94: beach: picolisp must be memorized for memory?
2020-02-21T16:00:18Z beach: lf94: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2020-02-21T16:00:26Z lf94: memorized -> optimized, damn hands
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2020-02-21T16:00:48Z lf94: Ok, ok.
2020-02-21T16:00:49Z jmercouris: Picolisp makes some people in this channel upset :-D
2020-02-21T16:00:50Z beach: lf94: As far as I know, picolisp is not an implementation of Common Lisp.
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2020-02-21T16:01:13Z lf94: Where's an appropriate place to talk about any lisp
2020-02-21T16:01:15Z lf94: X)
2020-02-21T16:01:30Z jmercouris: reddit.com/r/lisp
2020-02-21T16:01:40Z beach: lf94: You can try ##lisp, but you should know that there is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp".
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2020-02-21T16:01:55Z lf94: That I know
2020-02-21T16:01:55Z beach: lf94: Where as "Common Lisp" has a very clear definition in the form of a standard.
2020-02-21T16:02:18Z lf94: Does CL support some sort of type system?
2020-02-21T16:02:38Z beach: It has a very powerful type system and the simplest one possible too.
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2020-02-21T16:04:08Z beach: lf94: Seriously, read the works of Jim Newton and Didier Verna.  They will tell you everything you need to know about type systems relative to Common Lisp.
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2020-02-21T16:05:01Z beach: jmercouris: What was it that you wanted to know again?
2020-02-21T16:05:18Z beach: What generic functions have some method specializing on some class?
2020-02-21T16:05:29Z jmercouris: kind of
2020-02-21T16:05:32Z jmercouris: I have an object
2020-02-21T16:05:41Z jmercouris: and I want to know what slots it has and their accessors
2020-02-21T16:05:42Z beach: mop specializer-direct-methods
2020-02-21T16:05:42Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/specializer-direct-methods.html
2020-02-21T16:05:53Z beach: Oh, that.
2020-02-21T16:06:09Z Shinmera: mop class-slots
2020-02-21T16:06:10Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2020-02-21T16:06:18Z beach: mop slot-definition-readers
2020-02-21T16:06:18Z Shinmera: mop slot-definition-readers
2020-02-21T16:06:19Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-readers.html
2020-02-21T16:06:19Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-readers.html
2020-02-21T16:06:25Z beach: mop slot-definition-writers
2020-02-21T16:06:25Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-definition-writers.html
2020-02-21T16:06:37Z jmercouris: thank you
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2020-02-21T16:54:18Z pjb: lf94: and for the question of the language letting you define the basic types such as integer and floating point numbers, while Smalltalk let you do such a thing theorically, in practice, the compiler will do magic on them so it won't be easy anyways.  Similarly, in lisp and CL you can go the metalinguistic way to do it.  But your definitions won't take over the system one unless you recompile your implementation.
2020-02-21T16:55:05Z lf94: pjb: I'm ok with that
2020-02-21T16:55:06Z lf94: :)
2020-02-21T16:55:09Z pjb: lf94: from the user point of view, however, you can define your own types of "numbers".  See for example, how I defined the currency numbers in https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/invoice/invoice.lisp
2020-02-21T16:55:20Z lf94: :o
2020-02-21T16:59:45Z pjb: lf94: https://termbin.com/00uw
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2020-02-21T17:00:38Z pjb: lf94: the trick is that a symbol named "+" can be a different symbol than CL:+ ; it can be your-package:+ ; so it can be anything.
2020-02-21T17:01:13Z pjb: lf94: you can define a color:+ to mix colors; a string:+ to append strings; or a quaternon:+ to add quaternons…
2020-02-21T17:01:13Z lf94: overloading, yee
2020-02-21T17:01:20Z pjb: lf94: no, exactly the opposite!
2020-02-21T17:01:23Z lf94: I like the way CL does it
2020-02-21T17:01:27Z lf94: color:+ sounds awesome
2020-02-21T17:01:34Z pjb: lf94: there's no overloading, just different symbols with the same name.
2020-02-21T17:04:00Z lf94: err, isn't that still overloading?
2020-02-21T17:06:28Z pjb: No.
2020-02-21T17:06:37Z pjb: The symbols are totally different.
2020-02-21T17:07:12Z pjb: (eq 'cl:+ 'com.informatimago.common-lisp.invoice.invoice::+) #| --> nil |#
2020-02-21T17:10:08Z Bike: if you're familiar with C++, it's more like namespacing than overloading
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2020-02-21T17:13:15Z jasom: GF dispatch is more akin to overloading, but it's dynamic dispatch rather than static dispatch.
2020-02-21T17:13:50Z lf94: pjb: ohhh, so the name: part is required
2020-02-21T17:13:57Z lf94: my bad
2020-02-21T17:14:37Z Bike: it can be elided sometimes, but if you want to use both in the same area of code at least one will need to be qualified
2020-02-21T17:14:47Z jasom: lf94: for each package you can determine which symbol will resolve to a given name; so you could import color:+ but cl:* and then (+ x y) would use color:+ and (* x y) would use cl:*
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2020-02-21T17:15:09Z lf94: what if you import two name:+ ?
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2020-02-21T17:15:14Z lf94: ah
2020-02-21T17:15:16Z lf94: as Bike said
2020-02-21T17:15:17Z jasom: lf94: you get an error
2020-02-21T17:15:23Z jasom: or a warning or something
2020-02-21T17:15:34Z jasom doesn't remember how severe it is.
2020-02-21T17:16:01Z Bike:  an error, pretty sure
2020-02-21T17:16:46Z jasom: I looked it up.  It's an error, but there is also shadowing-import which will not throw an error.
2020-02-21T17:17:00Z Bike: well, either way, at the end only one is available
2020-02-21T17:17:04Z jasom: right
2020-02-21T17:17:09Z beach: jasom: Errors are not "thrown" in Common Lisp.  They are "signaled".
2020-02-21T17:17:27Z beach: jasom: The function THROW does something entirely different.
2020-02-21T17:17:29Z jasom: beach: mea culpa
2020-02-21T17:17:51Z jasom: I looked it up.  It's an error, but there is also shadowing-import which will not signal an error.
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2020-02-21T17:44:27Z _death: you can of course define your own kitchensink:+ that dispatches to the appropriate +
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2020-02-21T18:43:28Z PuercoPope: What is the easiest way to evaluate the initform of a slot if I don't want to instantiate an instance of the class? I can get the form from the slot's initform slot but I'd like not avoid evaling it
2020-02-21T18:46:25Z scymtym: PuercoPope: would this work: (defclass foo () ((%x :initform (random 10)))) (funcall (c2mop:slot-definition-initfunction (first (c2mop:class-slots (c2mop:ensure-finalized (find-class 'foo)))))) ?
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2020-02-21T18:47:27Z PuercoPope: scymtym: yeah, thanks
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2020-02-21T19:18:58Z pjb: PuercoPope: or, you could do it in pure CL (not using the MOP), like this: (defun x-initform () (random 10)) (defclass foo () ((%x :initform (x-initform)))) (x-initform)
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2020-02-21T19:33:33Z aeth: Definitely go with pjb's way. More people can read it.
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2020-02-21T19:55:41Z PuercoPope: I won't work for what I'm trying to do. The initform is a constructor, (rgb r g b), so I can't reuse a function. The jury is still out wether using the mop is a good idea though.
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2020-02-21T20:03:00Z pjb: PuercoPope: and were do the r g and b variable come from?
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2020-02-21T20:06:43Z verisimilitude: I'm here to share a style document I've written for Common Lisp programmers:
2020-02-21T20:06:43Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net
2020-02-21T20:06:45Z PuercoPope: From the class definition. https://gist.github.com/PuercoPop/602c1fb39204d181aec7e413bdb5bdb5
2020-02-21T20:06:48Z verisimilitude: Feel free to tell me what you think.
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2020-02-21T20:09:28Z pfdietz: Trying to determine which lisp unit testing frameworks define functions with the names of the tests.  Stefil is one; are there others?
2020-02-21T20:10:25Z pjb: PuercoPope: (defparameter *white* (rgb 255 255 255))  … :initform *white* …
2020-02-21T20:10:49Z pjb: I hope you internalize your colors…
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2020-02-21T20:11:36Z jackdaniel: pfdietz: 1am
2020-02-21T20:11:44Z jackdaniel: (and, consequently 2am)
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2020-02-21T20:12:42Z jackdaniel: when 3am and 4am are written, I can imagine 4:30 will follow, then 4:45am etc up to 4:59am and beyond, to 4:59:59am
2020-02-21T20:13:03Z PuercoPope: jackdaniel: No 4:20?
2020-02-21T20:13:12Z jackdaniel: or if someone is cheeky, up to 4:61am ;)
2020-02-21T20:13:22Z jackdaniel: sure, why not
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2020-02-21T20:27:03Z _death: verisimilitude: most of it looks ok, though there are peculiarities that make it hard to recommend to those in need of such a document
2020-02-21T20:27:43Z verisimilitude: I expected such; what peculiarities do you find particularly egregious, _death?
2020-02-21T20:29:22Z verisimilitude: Also, if you've a style guide you prefer, do make me aware of it; those I did read were terrible in my eyes.
2020-02-21T20:30:24Z jackdaniel: NOrvig's and Pitman's style guide is one of my favourite readings
2020-02-21T20:30:44Z jackdaniel: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf °
2020-02-21T20:30:48Z jackdaniel: Norvig's*
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2020-02-21T20:31:11Z verisimilitude: I've already read that one, I recall, although it's been too long for me to recall my particular criticisms thereof.
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2020-02-21T20:32:11Z _death: verisimilitude: likely the most offensive is disregard of special variables naming convention.. there's also usage recommendations for when/unless/and/or/#./##/comments/&aux/loop-keywords
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2020-02-21T20:33:16Z verisimilitude: I'm still amused with the dislike of &AUX; it's part of LAMBDA, such a critical part of the language, and yet many don't seem to learn of it.
2020-02-21T20:34:22Z z147: verisimilitude, I'd suggest simplifying the language if You're going for an international audience. Non-natives won't necessarily understand "infeasible" but won't have a problem with "less practical" or "not practical".
2020-02-21T20:34:23Z _death: verisimilitude: the dislike is not due to ignorance of it.. likely it's due to the fact that the lambda list is not considered the right place for internal bindings
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2020-02-21T20:35:31Z jackdaniel: I think that you underestimate non-native readers
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2020-02-21T20:35:36Z jackdaniel: z147: ^
2020-02-21T20:36:03Z verisimilitude: I appreciate your thoughts, z147, but I'm unwilling to simplify my English for those who merely may not know the language well.
2020-02-21T20:36:43Z verisimilitude: Words exist for a reason and I find it best to use them where appropriate; I don't believe I've used any particularly obscure words therein.
2020-02-21T20:37:07Z z147: jackdaniel, I prefer to check against word-frequency lists.
2020-02-21T20:37:19Z _death: z147: basic english is cool :)
2020-02-21T20:37:39Z verisimilitude: Fret not, z147, I'd like to eventually learn Esperanto and translate some of my work.
2020-02-21T20:37:43Z jackdaniel: that said language in the post sounds unnatural to me (but intelligible)
2020-02-21T20:38:16Z z147: _death, it's called Core English nowadays :)
2020-02-21T20:38:47Z z147: The manuals and edu. materials I've participated in producing have all been done with a core vocabulary in mind
2020-02-21T20:38:58Z jackdaniel: also, regarding post, it is more a "I like this and this" than a style guide
2020-02-21T20:39:16Z verisimilitude: It documents my style, as I note in the first paragraph, yes.
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2020-02-21T20:39:51Z verisimilitude: One could argue many style guides are like this and that I'm more honest about it, say.
2020-02-21T20:39:51Z jackdaniel: style is not consistent: at one point you write "I do something" in another you write "something is preferable" -- by whom then?
2020-02-21T20:40:17Z verisimilitude: I don't see the inconsistency there.
2020-02-21T20:41:01Z verisimilitude: It's a style document, wherein I list how I write Common Lisp and give other preferences, along with other advice.
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2020-02-21T20:41:22Z jackdaniel: back to the first concern, maybe some people are less onest, but they put more work to provide compelling argumentation why something is better
2020-02-21T20:41:30Z jackdaniel: honest*
2020-02-21T20:42:46Z verisimilitude: I've seen few style guides which bother making compelling arguments.  I don't feel the need to; they're my opinions and what I use.
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2020-02-21T20:43:38Z jackdaniel: good for you then. either way, that's my feedback you've asked for ,)
2020-02-21T20:43:54Z verisimilitude: You've not given feedback on the actual style, jackdaniel.
2020-02-21T20:45:06Z jackdaniel: I've given feedback on the actual guide, but if you do not appreciate it then it's up to you.
2020-02-21T20:46:10Z jackdaniel: as of actual style, it touches very few style concerns so there is not much to comment either. and since there is no argument in favour, then it is hard to argue with it; I believe it is in line with your taste (so I won't argue with that ;)
2020-02-21T20:47:04Z verisimilitude: I appreciate your thoughts, jackdaniel.
2020-02-21T20:47:33Z verisimilitude: Perhaps I should ask how it differs from your preferred style.
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2020-02-21T22:06:08Z jmercouris: anyone know how to handle errors in cl-cffi-gtk?
2020-02-21T22:07:11Z jmercouris: I get things like this: http://dpaste.com/0GGN2SV
2020-02-21T22:07:23Z jmercouris: I know it says cl-webkit, but that is using cl-cffi-gtk
2020-02-21T22:08:27Z jmercouris: I'm working with: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webkit/blob/master/webkit2/webkit2.web-view.lisp#L171
2020-02-21T22:08:38Z jmercouris: and the defun on line 186
2020-02-21T22:08:48Z jmercouris: the previous author of this library is using the with-g-error macro
2020-02-21T22:08:53Z jmercouris: but I hardly understand how that is supposed to be used
2020-02-21T22:09:09Z jmercouris: here is the macro: http://dpaste.com/1PG44DQ
2020-02-21T22:10:06Z jmercouris: of the restarts, my only option 0, leaves the program in a frozen state...
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2020-02-21T22:21:18Z jmercouris: documentation here of course
2020-02-21T22:21:19Z jmercouris: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/2.5.1/WebKitWebView.html#webkit-web-view-run-javascript
2020-02-21T22:21:30Z jmercouris: so the thing is, we are catching the error in webkit_web_view_run_javascript_finish
2020-02-21T22:21:40Z jmercouris: however... what exactly is cl-cffi-gtk doing...???
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2020-02-21T22:27:46Z LdBeth: hello
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2020-02-21T22:31:56Z jmercouris: Well, I just wrapped it in a handler-case and called it a day...
2020-02-21T22:31:58Z jmercouris: :-D
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2020-02-21T22:49:12Z jmercouris: further investigation, apparently gerrors can be ignored or just reported
2020-02-21T22:49:16Z jmercouris: so it is a non-catastrophic error
2020-02-21T22:49:20Z jmercouris: so I just report it, and continue
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2020-02-21T22:53:40Z jmercouris: anyways, goodbye for now!
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2020-02-22T06:13:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-22T06:22:35Z ArthurStrong: beach: indeed!
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2020-02-22T06:25:07Z beach: I think of a style guide as merely documenting established conventions.  Not as an attempt to expose personal preferences.
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2020-02-22T07:47:34Z beach: A two page document that contains more than 40 occurrences of "I" is not a style guide.  It is an exposure of personal preferences.
2020-02-22T07:48:03Z shangul: hmm
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2020-02-22T07:52:54Z no-defun-allowed: Which link is the style guide?
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2020-02-22T07:55:17Z no-defun-allowed: http://verisimilitudes.net/2020-02-14 I guess. Usually I would expect that the newest documents are at the top of the list.
2020-02-22T07:57:32Z Shinmera: beach: He did say that he just wanted to note his own preferences, but I honestly don't understand the point of writing something like that up, if it's not meant to be generally useful?
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2020-02-22T07:59:27Z no-defun-allowed: I disagree with (the example of) reusing symbols; the latter would cause less of a hastle if another programmer wanted to extend the program, maybe to also count the number of symbols with function bindings.
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2020-02-22T08:01:25Z White_Flame: concern for the static number of interned symbols is pointless anyway
2020-02-22T08:01:38Z White_Flame: the dynamic allocations will far outweigh the static ones
2020-02-22T08:04:20Z White_Flame: most of the doc is personal preference (much of which I could give real reasons against), but that one is pretty cut and dry
2020-02-22T08:07:27Z no-defun-allowed: I don't understand what is meant by "A macro should strive to have an expansion which is pleasant to a human reader and also stress using pure standard Common Lisp where possible". The first part is hard to do in some situations, such as parsing, where the code generated is going to be ugly no matter what, but I don't understand what "pure standard Common Lisp" means. Can I not expand to another macro I define using
2020-02-22T08:07:27Z no-defun-allowed: this guide?
2020-02-22T08:08:08Z jeosol: I am not sure if he is trying to be funny, argumentative or not. He said he doesn't use WHEN and UNLESS. Haha. Interesting ...
2020-02-22T08:09:13Z Shinmera: jeosol: based on things he's said in this channel before he's not being funny.
2020-02-22T08:09:14Z beach: jeosol: I think "argumentative" is the answer.  If you look in the logs of this channel for the last 2 years, and you search for utterances by me mentioning that name, you will see.
2020-02-22T08:09:53Z jeosol: oh really. I don't think I know him. I should give it a look then.
2020-02-22T08:10:10Z jeosol: I am surprised by some of the things he writes, whether is a lisper or just some troll.
2020-02-22T08:10:18Z no-defun-allowed: If so, I'm done for, because in one of my projects I have a DEFINE-FUNCTION-OPCODE, which generates a body for DEFINE-OPCODE which calls a function, which then expands to %DEFINE-OPCODE with some typo checking. That seems like a fair expansion path otherwise.
2020-02-22T08:10:24Z beach: jeosol: It is basically a long list of "I don't give a damn about conventions.  This is what *I* think."
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2020-02-22T08:10:56Z jeosol: beach: hahaha. I agree with you.
2020-02-22T08:11:26Z jeosol: That's how I read it. Especially the comment about using 100 columns vs. 80 columns, and alluding to tribal fire ...
2020-02-22T08:11:36Z beach: Exactly.
2020-02-22T08:12:09Z beach: Conventions are dismissed as "tribal restrictions".
2020-02-22T08:12:41Z jeosol: I guess I shouldn't take it seriously then. I thought it was something that probably incorporated and built on Norvig's/Pitman's guidelines
2020-02-22T08:13:46Z beach: It's the exact opposite.  That document was recommended to this person more than a year ago.  The fact that Norvig and Pitman are much more experienced does not seem to matter.
2020-02-22T08:14:17Z jeosol: He really just wants to argue and be against convention. In almost every paragraphs, he comes across as not wanting to heed or following any convention.
2020-02-22T08:14:36Z beach: Exactly!
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2020-02-22T08:15:32Z beach: And it is kind of interesting to simultaneously recommend that others do the same. :)
2020-02-22T08:15:47Z no-defun-allowed: And the example code shouldn't be presented differently to actual code, as it is already distinguishable from other text by the gray background and monospace font. That is especially confusing in the context of a style guide; should we write all upcased code?
2020-02-22T08:16:00Z beach: I mean, by not following the recommendations on that page, you actually follow the recommendations on that page. :)
2020-02-22T08:16:06Z jeosol: I am glad beach and shinmera clarified, otherwise, I thought he was being funny.
2020-02-22T08:16:24Z jeosol: no-defun-allowed: yeah, the comment about upcase, I didn't see the point of it at all.
2020-02-22T08:17:32Z no-defun-allowed: (I don't mind people saying "screw you guys, I'm going to do my own thing" and acting upon it, as that sometimes creates very interesting results, but this style and its presentation are very silly.)
2020-02-22T08:19:22Z White_Flame: what is this supposed to mean? "if a multi-word predicate name ends in P, that implies it's not a predicate, but a variation on one."
2020-02-22T08:19:48Z Shinmera: I have no clue
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2020-02-22T09:22:56Z jackdaniel: White_Flame: if I had to take a guess, it tries to hint a difference between simple-string-p and string-lessp
2020-02-22T09:23:33Z jackdaniel: where the former is a predicte for type simple-string, while the latter is a variation of a predicate lessp
2020-02-22T09:26:39Z White_Flame: ah
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2020-02-22T09:48:30Z madrik: As advised, I have removed CL packages I got from Apt (Debian) and now manage them using quicklisp.
2020-02-22T09:49:09Z madrik: And thank you for recommending FiveAM.  The idea of suites was what I was missing in RT.
2020-02-22T09:50:00Z madrik: Next I will explore managing some of my personal projects with quicklisp.
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2020-02-22T12:00:33Z madrik: When I try to evaluate '(quicklisp-quickstart:install)' after load 'quicklisp.lisp' in SBCL, I get an error:
2020-02-22T12:00:39Z madrik: Failed to find the truename of : No such file or directory
2020-02-22T12:01:11Z madrik: But it works in CMUCL
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2020-02-22T12:04:55Z madrik: And in Allegro CL Trial
2020-02-22T12:06:45Z edgar-rft: madrik: is that on Windows? "the truename of :" looks like the colon of a Windows drive letter like "C:\"
2020-02-22T12:07:12Z madrik: I'm running on Debian Linux.
2020-02-22T12:07:48Z edgar-rft: strange...
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2020-02-22T12:10:23Z madrik: I tested CCL too. So, CMUCL, CCL, and ACL work, but SBCL doesn't.
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2020-02-22T12:13:40Z edgar-rft: hmm, what SBCL version is that? Debian somtimes has stoneage software in its repos
2020-02-22T12:15:27Z madrik: Well, I tried the 1.4.16 version that Debian provides, and I also built 2.0.1 from source.
2020-02-22T12:15:42Z madrik: Both show the same error of the truename.
2020-02-22T12:19:03Z edgar-rft: gimme some minutes, I know a Debian box where I can test it...
2020-02-22T12:19:25Z madrik: I'm here.
2020-02-22T12:19:40Z pjb: madrik: check your *default-pathname-defaults* ?
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2020-02-22T12:21:41Z madrik: For CCL and CMUCL, *default-pathname-defaults* is P""
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2020-02-22T12:22:14Z madrik: For SBCL and ACL, *default-pathname-defaults* is #P"/home/madrik/"
2020-02-22T12:24:00Z pjb: So try to (setf *default-pathname-defaults* #P"") on those implementations where it doesn't work and try again.
2020-02-22T12:28:31Z madrik: I set *default-pathname-defaults* to #P"" in SBCL, but I still get the same error.
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2020-02-22T12:30:18Z madrik: In SLIME's backtrace, I see that (truename #P"") is called in the course of quicklisp's install procedure.
2020-02-22T12:30:32Z madrik: It seems that maybe MERGE-PATHNAMES is involved there.
2020-02-22T12:31:34Z pjb: madrik: calling  (truename #P"") is bad.  Try to see where this #P"" comes from, and why it's not filled with an actual pathname.
2020-02-22T12:36:02Z madrik: I first thought that maybe it could be an issue with SBCL's interpreter, and so switched it to use the compiler.
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2020-02-22T12:36:20Z madrik: Not so.  The error persists.
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2020-02-22T12:37:21Z madrik: I see that MERGE-PATHNAMES is called with arguments QUICKLISP-QUICKSTART::*HOME* and (TRUENAME *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*)
2020-02-22T12:37:48Z madrik: From SLIME:
2020-02-22T12:37:50Z madrik: sb-interpreter::data = #(#<function merge-pathnames> #<sexpr quicklisp-quickstart::*home*... #x1002900A33> #<sexpr (truename *default-pathname-de... #x1002900A73>)
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2020-02-22T12:38:12Z madrik: sb-interpreter::env = #<sb-interpreter::lambda-env {10029007D3}>
2020-02-22T12:38:27Z madrik: I don't think that the lambda environment has anything to do with it.
2020-02-22T12:39:16Z madrik: Perhaps I've goofed somehow in SBCL's usage.
2020-02-22T12:39:59Z madrik: OTOH, it is interesting that only SBCL shows this, and not CCL, ACL, and CMUCL.
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2020-02-22T12:50:19Z Xach: hi madrik
2020-02-22T12:50:45Z Xach: I don't think I've seen an error like that on installation before.
2020-02-22T12:51:56Z Xach: Are you up for some more troubleshooting?
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2020-02-22T13:06:10Z pjb: madrik: (TRUENAME *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*) is a bug in general, since *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* is not normaly bound to a file pathname.
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2020-02-22T13:06:35Z pjb: an *existing* file pathname!
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2020-02-22T13:08:45Z madrik: Xach: I'm here.
2020-02-22T13:08:58Z Xach: madrik: are you up for trying something to see what results?
2020-02-22T13:09:11Z madrik: pjb: Might this be a problem in SBCL?
2020-02-22T13:09:20Z madrik: Xach: Sure.
2020-02-22T13:09:45Z Xach: WHat do you get from sbcl --noinform --non-interactive --no-userinit --no-sysinit --eval '(print *default-pathname-defaults*)' --eval '(terpri)'?
2020-02-22T13:11:00Z madrik: #P"/home/madrik/"
2020-02-22T13:11:07Z madrik: My home directory
2020-02-22T13:11:11Z Xach: Ok
2020-02-22T13:11:28Z Xach: How about sbcl --noinform --non-interactive  --eval '(print *default-pathname-defaults*)' --eval '(terpri)' ?
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2020-02-22T13:12:03Z madrik: The same
2020-02-22T13:12:20Z Xach: hmm
2020-02-22T13:12:28Z Xach: madrik: where is your quicklisp.lisp file?
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2020-02-22T13:13:42Z madrik: I have it in '/home/madrik/Source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp'
2020-02-22T13:14:34Z Xach: How about: ssbcl --noinform --non-interactive  --load ~/Source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp --eval '(quicklisp-quickstart:install)'
2020-02-22T13:14:39Z Xach: Curious to see if you get the same error as before.
2020-02-22T13:14:49Z Xach: err, not ssbcl, but sbcl
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2020-02-22T13:17:05Z madrik: Unhandled simple-error in thread #<sb-thread:thread "main thread" running
2020-02-22T13:17:05Z madrik:                                     {10005D05B3}>:
2020-02-22T13:17:05Z madrik:   Quicklisp has already been installed. Load #P"/home/madrik/quicklisp/setup.lisp" instead.
2020-02-22T13:17:08Z madrik:  
2020-02-22T13:17:15Z madrik: It gobbled up part of the path
2020-02-22T13:17:37Z madrik: No, it didn't.
2020-02-22T13:17:38Z madrik: Sorry
2020-02-22T13:17:53Z madrik: Hmm.
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2020-02-22T13:19:37Z madrik: I tried it again on a fresh SBCL under SLIME.
2020-02-22T13:19:44Z Xach: How about: sbcl --noinform --non-interactive  --load ~/Source/quicklisp/quicklisp.lisp --eval '(quicklisp-quickstart:install :path "/tmp/quicklisp/")'
2020-02-22T13:20:52Z madrik: No error these last times.  Works just as CCL, ACL, and CMUCL.
2020-02-22T13:21:02Z madrik: I have no idea what happened.
2020-02-22T13:21:15Z Xach: Hmm, ok.
2020-02-22T13:21:30Z madrik: _That_ it works is great, but _why_?
2020-02-22T13:21:51Z Xach: Well, sorry it glitched, that is not an error that happens typically. It's not a "oh that happens all the time and here's the workaround" sort of thing.
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2020-02-22T13:22:23Z madrik: Xach: I understand.
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2020-02-22T13:22:41Z madrik: What little I've used of quicklisp suggests that it is first-rate.
2020-02-22T13:23:26Z madrik: Xach: Thanks a lot.
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2020-02-22T13:29:39Z madrik: If I want to use quicklisp to manage local projects of mine, what should I put in 'quicklisp/local-projects' -- the ASD system definitions and all Lisp source files?
2020-02-22T13:31:28Z beach: You can make any number of subdirectories in that directory, or you can put symbolic links (at least for SBCL) in that directory to anywhere you like.
2020-02-22T13:32:18Z beach: You just need to remember to execute (ql:register-local-projects) after every new ASDF file you create.
2020-02-22T13:38:06Z madrik: beach: Thanks. That works.
2020-02-22T13:38:21Z beach: Great!
2020-02-22T13:38:28Z madrik: It all feels so overwhelming and huge.
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2020-02-22T13:39:45Z beach: Believe me, it was much more overwhelming before Quicklisp.
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2020-02-22T13:40:19Z madrik: beach: I will take your word for it.
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2020-02-22T13:48:50Z madrik: In  https://paste.debian.net/1131531
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2020-02-22T13:49:17Z madrik: Is the DO form in PRODUCE-TWO-RANDOM-NUMBERS a good way to get two distinct random numbers?
2020-02-22T13:51:16Z _death: madrik: you can (random n) to get the first number, then (random (1- n)) to a number that can be mapped to the second number
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2020-02-22T13:55:33Z beach: What does it mean for a number to be "mapped to" another number?
2020-02-22T13:56:54Z _death: in this case, it means if the second number is less than the first, take it as is, otherwise, increment by 1
2020-02-22T13:59:15Z beach: That doesn't sound very random.
2020-02-22T13:59:41Z beach: If the first number is A, then A+1 will never be produced as a result of that procedure.
2020-02-22T14:00:43Z _death: you can think of the first as returning an index to a sequence of (iota n) and the second as returning an index to the sequence (remove first-number (iota n))
2020-02-22T14:01:33Z _death: beach: suppose N=10 and A=5.. if the second form (random 9) returns 5, then the second number is A+1=6
2020-02-22T14:03:15Z beach: OK.
2020-02-22T14:03:18Z beach: I think I see.
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2020-02-22T15:01:06Z _death: in general a Q&D way is (subseq (shuffle (iota n)) 0 k) although solutions using LFSRs and Feistel networks are also possible
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2020-02-22T15:14:45Z _death: (if N is not known a prior, we talked about reservoir sampling the other day ;)
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2020-02-22T15:20:21Z Posterdati: hi
2020-02-22T15:21:08Z _death: also note that alexandria:shuffle is still atrocious for lists :/ so it's better to coerce to vector, pass, and coerce back
2020-02-22T15:21:11Z Posterdati: I submitted some fixes for cffi to make it run on openbsd, but in the new release there's no trace of them :(
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2020-02-22T15:24:53Z _death: Posterdati: were they merged?
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2020-02-22T16:46:02Z nirved: madrik: in your roll-die function the docstring doesn't match the implementation
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2020-02-22T16:49:20Z nirved: madrik: random number in range [N, M] would be (+ N (random (1+ (- M N))))
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2020-02-22T17:19:41Z madrik: nirved: Thanks for the observation.
2020-02-22T17:31:19Z verisimilitude: I appreciate the thoughts my style document received.  As noted, the upcased code is for display purposes and not as a suggestion to write it that way in a program.  To you, no-defun-allowed, there's nothing wrong with a macro not expanding to symbols in the COMMON-LISP package, of course, but you should try if it's possible; in your case, it may very well not be; I don't believe LOOP and FORMAT have any excuse for their awful
2020-02-22T17:31:19Z verisimilitude: expansions in most implementations, however.
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2020-02-22T17:36:13Z verisimilitude: I wrote the document because someone in my Lisp venue wanted to read style guides and I'd a dearth of writing ideas.
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2020-02-22T17:40:23Z _death: verisimilitude: have you been working on acute-terminal-control recently?
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2020-02-22T19:28:38Z verisimilitude: I've not, _death.
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2020-02-22T19:29:21Z verisimilitude: There are some things I'd like to add or improve, but I've yet to do so.  Are there any such things you'd want to discuss?
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2020-02-22T19:30:07Z verisimilitude: Oh, I've also yet to completely rewrite the documentation, as I've been intending to do with most of my documentation.
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2020-02-22T19:34:58Z _death: verisimilitude: when I used it about a year ago, the issues were the differences in terminal emulators (I used the terminfo system, which is a pure CL "Terminfo database front-end") including mouse input (possibly, I don't think I fully resolved it).. I also had a small patch to support "bright" colors.. personally I think it was a mistake to represent colors as symbols (only)
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2020-02-22T19:39:39Z _death: another was the issue of distribution, where a git repository was not available.. but since I found no reason to make my code public it wasn't a big deal (I just have my own git repo for your library)
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2020-02-22T19:46:16Z verisimilitude: Oh, there have perhaps been changes since you last used it.  Take a look.  My READ-EVENT accepts mouse events, function keys, etc.; I added extended color support a ways back as well.
2020-02-22T19:47:25Z verisimilitude: Colors can be represented not just as symbols, but also RGB, CMY, and CMYK, as that's what ISO 8613-6 supports.
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2020-02-22T19:48:42Z verisimilitude: Another change I'd been mulling over was adding (SETF PROPERTIES), which would make bold, italics, etc. easy to use, but I'd not decided on the set of properties I wanted to support; I'll probably resolve this soon by using a subset I'm certain of.
2020-02-22T19:48:51Z _death: good.. this is another reason to use a version control system - it is easier to notice updates
2020-02-22T19:50:12Z verisimilitude: It's unfortunate I've inconvenienced you, but I really just don't want to use git or these other systems, _death.
2020-02-22T19:51:10Z _death: it's your choice ;)
2020-02-22T19:51:38Z verisimilitude: The only really major and perhaps ``breaking'' change I've been considering is slightly changing how CURSOR behaves, by adding a CURSOR-NO-HANG and changing CURSOR to perhaps wait forever if the STREAM doesn't correspond to a terminal.
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2020-02-22T19:52:51Z _death: I will look into these changes this week, I guess
2020-02-22T19:52:51Z verisimilitude: Is your work with my ATC public in any way, _death?
2020-02-22T19:53:25Z verisimilitude: If you'd want some additional feature, describe it to me and I'll mull it over.
2020-02-22T19:53:30Z _death: nope.. it was a personal project that stalled some 10 months ago
2020-02-22T19:53:34Z verisimilitude: Alright.
2020-02-22T19:55:19Z _death: I guess fixing the mouse issues is the next thing to do there, and given your changes I may work on it ;)
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2020-02-22T20:01:15Z verisimilitude: Know you must enable the mouse by yourself.
2020-02-22T20:02:00Z _death: yes, the issue was with the read-event return values if I remember correctly.. maybe this was fixed
2020-02-22T20:04:07Z verisimilitude: You'll want to use SET-MODE with arguments of #\?, 1006, and 1007.
2020-02-22T20:05:07Z _death: ok, I'll make a note
2020-02-22T20:07:54Z verisimilitude: Oh, it's #\?, 9, 1006 and 1007; that's my mistake.
2020-02-22T20:09:15Z verisimilitude: Also, SET-MODE takes this as a list, for good reason, but that's obvious or would quickly be obvious.
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2020-02-23T01:23:42Z onceagain: Just wanted to see if anyone's dealt with this, when I compile my file on vlime I get a package not found error even the package is recognized when I run the program line by line from the SBCL repl. I'm thinking it has something to do with my swank setup, any ideas what might be going on?
2020-02-23T01:25:24Z onceagain: I'm pretty sure it's on the first line (ql:quickload :croatoan)
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2020-02-23T01:30:51Z didi: So I finally used `macrolet' for the first time. This must be a milestone of some sort.
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2020-02-23T02:02:56Z Bike: onceagain: compile-file doesn't execute as it goes, so e.g. the quickload is only compiled, not executed, when the later forms using :croatoan packages are compiled
2020-02-23T02:03:11Z Xach: how can i be 37 minutes and 5 seconds late?
2020-02-23T02:03:15Z Xach: I was just going to type that.
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2020-02-23T02:05:26Z onceagain: @Bike Interesting, I guess I don't really understand why it would throw an error though if that's the case?
2020-02-23T02:05:49Z Bike: onceagain: the package hasn't been defined, so it doesn't exist, so the reader can't read your code
2020-02-23T02:07:11Z onceagain: Hmm well the next line after the quickload is (in-package :croatoan), does that not define the package?
2020-02-23T02:07:25Z Bike: no it does not
2020-02-23T02:07:40Z Bike: it just tells the compiler and reader and stuff to use that package
2020-02-23T02:10:01Z onceagain: Would you happen to have a good linke or reference to start reading about this kind of thing? I don't think I have enough understanding of compile-file to get this working yet
2020-02-23T02:10:49Z onceagain: I guess I could start with the documentation on compile-file, it helps to know that this isn't some kind of swank issue
2020-02-23T02:12:43Z White_Flame: the proper fix is not to have quickloads inline in your source code, or really anything that defines packages in the same source that uses them syntactically
2020-02-23T02:13:10Z White_Flame: put them in a separate file that's loaded beforehand, or preferably set up an .asd file for your project which can declare its dependencies
2020-02-23T02:14:02Z White_Flame: either that, or when you're working interactively just ensure you bring up your dependencies manually before using the file
2020-02-23T02:14:42Z White_Flame: as far as learning, the biggest issue is knowing what the reader does
2020-02-23T02:15:12Z White_Flame: and that a package must exist before a form using its symbols is even read
2020-02-23T02:16:43Z White_Flame: If you haven't read PCL, it's a good programmer's interoduction to lisp which also covers packages & symbols: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2020-02-23T02:17:06Z White_Flame: (chapter 21)
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2020-02-23T02:18:58Z onceagain: White_Flame it looks like I have a lot to learn! Thanks for the advice, I'm pretty new to all this. I've been reading through CL: a gentle introduction, but sometimes I get antsy and want to figure out my workflow more quickly. I was originally sending things line by line through Tslime to a tmux pane running SBCL, but the output there is kinda
2020-02-23T02:18:58Z onceagain: hard on the eyes compared to vlime
2020-02-23T02:19:35Z onceagain: I'll make sure to check out that chapter and some more resources on the full setup needed for compiling files
2020-02-23T02:19:35Z White_Flame: yeah, symbols & packages are definitely something that isn't obvious at first glance, but are actually pretty simple
2020-02-23T02:20:03Z White_Flame: just remember that compiling (ql:quickload "something") doesn't execute it
2020-02-23T02:20:34Z White_Flame: and thus doesn't actually have the dependency loaded when your next lines are read for compilation
2020-02-23T02:21:33Z onceagain: I remember reading that SBCL can be run either as a compiled language or a scripting language, but does this all mean you can't really run an uncompiled script that uses an outside package? Or is scripting in lisp just not the way to go in general
2020-02-23T02:22:04Z Xach: onceagain: you can indicate that certain forms should have an action at compile-time
2020-02-23T02:22:10Z White_Flame: Lisp's history involved a lot of Lisp OSes, so it tends to own its own environment moreso than being involved in scripts.  But scripts are doable
2020-02-23T02:22:13Z Bike: well, if you want it to run like a script, run it like a script. compile-file doesn't
2020-02-23T02:22:16Z Xach: eval-when is the tool
2020-02-23T02:27:43Z onceagain: Good to know! Thanks again, I'm gonna do some reading to sort myself out a bit
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2020-02-23T04:05:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-23T04:18:57Z ebrasca: Morning!
2020-02-23T04:19:07Z no-defun-allowed: Good morning ebrasca.
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2020-02-23T04:47:32Z madrik: Before Common Lisp's condition system, how did earlier Lisp such as Maclisp and Interlisp handle errors and exceptions?  Was it something like CATCH and THROW only?
2020-02-23T04:48:01Z beach: Yes, I think that's true.
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2020-02-23T04:48:42Z beach: ... at least for Maclisp.  I don't know about Interlisp.
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2020-02-23T04:52:10Z beach: Interesting relate fact: The condition system was inspired by that of Multics PL/I, and PL/I on Multics was an excellent development environment, especially considering when it existed.
2020-02-23T04:52:21Z beach: related
2020-02-23T04:53:16Z edgar-rft: madrik: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ has most of the the old Lisp manuals back to 1958
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2020-02-23T05:30:04Z madrik: beach: So, might we say that Emacs Lisp is somewhat a Maclisp of today?
2020-02-23T05:30:15Z madrik: edgar-rft: Thanks for the link.
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2020-02-23T05:30:48Z madrik: What were FEXPRS?
2020-02-23T05:30:55Z beach: madrik: In a way, yes.  But Emacs Lisp has evolved.
2020-02-23T05:31:10Z beach: madrik: Functions that did not evaluate their arguments.
2020-02-23T05:32:05Z beach: They were replaced by macros for reasons of performance.  Macros are handled at compile time.
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2020-02-23T05:38:50Z madrik: beach: When were macros invented?
2020-02-23T05:38:53Z beach: madrik: Initially, Emacs Lisp had only dynamic bindings, whereas Maclisp had dynamic bindings in the interpreter and lexical bindings in the compiler.
2020-02-23T05:39:19Z beach: I don't remember when macros were invented.  Sorry.
2020-02-23T05:39:39Z madrik: beach: Wow.  Different bindings in different environments?  Wasn't that a pain?
2020-02-23T05:40:45Z beach: It was less of a problem than you might think.  Most people wrote programs that were intended to behave as if bindings were lexical anyway.  Taking advantage of dynamic bindings was exceptional.
2020-02-23T05:41:07Z beach: So whether such a program ran in the interpreter or in the compiler did not make a difference.
2020-02-23T05:44:52Z beach: Interestingly, Franz Lisp (a predecessor of Allegro Common Lisp in a way) went to a lot of trouble to make compiled code use dynamic bindings.  At the time, dynamic bindings were thought to be the norm.  I think this is where Scheme showed the way, and inspired Common Lisp to use lexical bindings everywhere.
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2020-02-23T05:47:37Z edgar-rft: madrik: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro_(computer_science)#Early_Lisp_macros says "In 1963, Timothy Hart proposed adding macros to Lisp 1.5 in AI Memo 57: MACRO Definitions for LISP." with link to the original document. I have no idea if that is true bcause I wasn't even born at that time :-)
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2020-02-23T05:49:08Z madrik: edgar-rft: Hmm.  That was about 30 BM (Before Me :)
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2020-02-23T05:51:00Z madrik: Out of curiosity, I know that popular Lisp systems currently feature a compiler as given, with an optional interpreter.  Are there any systems with _only_ a Common Lisp interpreter?
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2020-02-23T05:53:57Z edgar-rft: madrik: https://almy.us/xlisp.html is the only one I know, but it's not a full implementation of Common Lisp
2020-02-23T05:54:46Z madrik: edgar-rft: Thanks.
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2020-02-23T10:16:45Z no-defun-allowed: How are accessors generated in the MOP?
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2020-02-23T11:47:12Z amnesia_: hello people
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2020-02-23T11:48:38Z p_l: madrik: some systems can be run with just evaluator, but Common Lisp requires "minimal compilation" (expansion of macros etc.)
2020-02-23T11:49:11Z p_l: technically some implementations skirt this literally but preserve the required semantics, like LW which uses evaluator when tracing macros
2020-02-23T11:49:35Z p_l: (it puts macros in uncompiled state for the tracing)
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2020-02-23T12:34:35Z Posterdati: amnesia_: hello single people
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2020-02-23T13:28:20Z vegai: I suppose there's nothing comparable to SLIME for Visual Studio Code?
2020-02-23T13:29:10Z Shinmera: No
2020-02-23T13:29:23Z Shinmera: There's nothing comparable to Slime anywhere except in Emacs, unfortunately.
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2020-02-23T13:37:24Z beach: no-defun-allowed: I am not sure what your question means.
2020-02-23T13:39:29Z nirved: Genera is kinda comparable to Slime
2020-02-23T13:39:41Z beach: no-defun-allowed: The default would be to create a method like (defmethod some-reader ((x some-class)) (slot-value x 'the-slot-name)), but there are ways of making it faster.  When the effective method is created, it is often possible to use standard-instance-access instead, which is much faster.
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2020-02-23T13:49:33Z madrik: p_l: Thanks.
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2020-02-23T17:00:07Z pjb: madrik: macros were invented in 1964 (same year I was born!)
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2020-02-23T17:01:53Z pjb: well, s/invented/implemented/
2020-02-23T17:03:52Z hsaziz: After removing a distro installed version of SLIME, my MELPA (stable) installed SLIME version still insists on accessing the old system wide swank-loader.lisp.
2020-02-23T17:03:52Z hsaziz: How do I purge the system and reset the path to swank-loader.lisp?
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2020-02-23T17:11:20Z madrik: pjb: Was this in Maclisp or Interlisp or some other Lisp?
2020-02-23T17:11:56Z madrik: hsaziz: Did you restart Emacs?
2020-02-23T17:12:28Z pjb: madrik: I thought it was in MacLisp, but this AIM talks about LISP 1.5…
2020-02-23T17:13:24Z hsaziz: madrik: Several times, including reboots.
2020-02-23T17:14:29Z pjb: MacLISP forked in 1966 from LISP 1.5.  So it probably included macro from the start.  Perhaps it was the first one to have macros exactly like our defmacro.  I've not read the  AIM 57 yet, but it looks like they hacked macros over FEXPRs…
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2020-02-23T17:15:31Z madrik: hsaziz: What Linux is this?
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2020-02-23T17:15:47Z hsaziz: Ubuntu
2020-02-23T17:16:58Z hsaziz: Also had the same problem many years ago on Debian on a MIPS based SOC board.
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2020-02-23T17:18:37Z hsaziz: Ubuntu 1910 if it matters
2020-02-23T17:18:42Z _death: don't use melpa for slime.. quicklisp-slime-helper is acceptable, or clone the repo and config yourself
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2020-02-23T17:19:05Z madrik: hsaziz: I've faced this too.  I can't remember how I solved it.
2020-02-23T17:20:09Z hsaziz: I am not, yet, comfortable enough with LISP, to do a lot of my own configuring!
2020-02-23T17:20:20Z madrik: _death: Should we not use either MELPA or the distribution's repositories in any circumstance?
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2020-02-23T17:22:22Z phoe: madrik: never use distribution's repositories
2020-02-23T17:22:25Z madrik: pjb: Which reminds me, how is ISLISP nowadays?
2020-02-23T17:22:45Z pjb: Niche.
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2020-02-23T17:22:56Z pjb: There are a couple of implementations.
2020-02-23T17:22:57Z phoe: for slime use either (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) or the one from melpa (e.g. bundled in spacemacs), and don't mix the two
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2020-02-23T17:25:41Z madrik: hsaziz: Did you 'apt-get remove slime' or 'apt-get purge slime'?
2020-02-23T17:25:51Z _death: madrik: melpa is ok for emacs packages (although personally I hacked things so that I can easily diff changes and roll back if needed) but when it comes to CL, quicklisp or DIY package management is the way
2020-02-23T17:26:29Z hsaziz: I am being daft! I am typing this on Ubuntu 1910 and therefore had this in mind. I am actually having this issue on an ancient machine running Trisquel 8, which is also Ubuntu based. I think 16.04.
2020-02-23T17:27:23Z hsaziz: madrik: apt remove slime
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2020-02-23T17:27:57Z madrik: _death: I am aware that most languages today opt for and encourage the use of their own package management systems.  But then, why do the maintainers of distributions spend so much time and effort integrating things?
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2020-02-23T17:28:45Z madrik: hsaziz: Try to purge it.  That should get rid of lingering configuration files.
2020-02-23T17:29:02Z _death: madrik: you'll have to ask them why.. maybe they just think "I'm a dist maintainer, I need to do my job"
2020-02-23T17:30:02Z _death: madrik: whereas a language user cares more about his particular niche working without pain
2020-02-23T17:32:04Z madrik: _death: Hmm.  I can see either side.
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2020-02-23T17:34:39Z _death: madrik: maybe the difference is between "users" and "developers".. a dist maintainer sees "users" and tune to their perceived interests, while a "developers" are a fickle bunch that don't really form a homogeneous group of users, each subgroup can have different forces shaping its interests and values
2020-02-23T17:35:25Z madrik: _death: Indeed.
2020-02-23T17:35:27Z madrik: I tend toward the distribution's view because when I obtain my software from my (distribution) vendor, I almost always get a managed, stress-free, well-put-together environment.  The upgrades and security updates are taken care of, and the different components are made to work with each other.
2020-02-23T17:35:32Z _death: this also happens with quicklisp, but to a lesser degree
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2020-02-23T17:36:44Z amerlyq: madrik: maintainer thing is all about "fit all things together in global namespace" -- to actually reduce complexity and unavoidable context fragmentation
2020-02-23T17:36:56Z madrik: The objection to the distribution's view is that old software may have unfixed bugs dealt with in the newer versions.
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2020-02-23T17:37:28Z _death: madrik: sure, I update some software via distribution, but when it comes to CL my method of "updating" is a git-fetch-all script and skimming new commits, putting more scrutiny into libraries I actually care about
2020-02-23T17:37:36Z madrik: To which the reply is that newer software may have unseen bugs or feature changes.
2020-02-23T17:38:10Z madrik: _death: Yes.  I understand it is a trade-off.
2020-02-23T17:39:24Z madrik: In managing things yourself, you get control, but you also must exercise more responsibility.  Whereas you can delegate a sizeable chunk of administration to the distribution on the other view.
2020-02-23T17:39:26Z amerlyq: I think the main point is splitting steps of "I'm ready to update all my software and deps" .vs. "I'm ready to do dev work". It's easy with distributors soft, but somewhat tiresome and opaque with quicklisp
2020-02-23T17:40:39Z madrik: amerlyq: Just to tee off, notice that the split in Python -- 2 v 3 -- was already painful.  And then they have two different versions of each piece software.
2020-02-23T17:41:01Z madrik: And two different package managers -- pip for 2 and another for 3.
2020-02-23T17:41:35Z madrik: But I gather that Python 2 is dying/being killed off.
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2020-02-23T17:42:19Z jackdaniel: as name indicates, that are two differen languages -- that does tell how instable is the ecosystem ;)
2020-02-23T17:42:22Z amerlyq: it's only the question of pushing the responsibility to update all old soft, which will break on update. Either way somebody must do it
2020-02-23T17:42:39Z jackdaniel: s/that does tell/this does tell/
2020-02-23T17:43:27Z madrik: amerlyq: It is of course very labor intensive.
2020-02-23T17:45:30Z amerlyq: When you developing one project and use dynamic package manager -- you are somewhat ~ready~ to fix everything which breaks on each update in any deps API. When you periodically develop many projects... you are not so ~ready~, and do it rarely, after gathering great willpower.
2020-02-23T17:45:42Z _death: as a developer you are responsible for your dependencies and working environment.. there are conflicts that are resolved by taking more responsibility away from the distro
2020-02-23T17:46:03Z madrik: In connection with the discussion about SETQ v SETF the other day, I noted that symbol macros were mentioned.  Where would they be used?  What problem do they solve?
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2020-02-23T17:47:20Z _death: madrik: I believe originally they were introduced to make WITH-SLOTS (and WITH-ACCESSORS, I guess) possible
2020-02-23T17:47:41Z hsaziz: makrk: THANK YOU!!! That worked! I actually wasted 2 1/2 hours yesterday wrestling with this.
2020-02-23T17:48:19Z madrik: _death: The main argument I read is that now each developer has to keep in step with security updates.  This may seem undesirable, globally taken.
2020-02-23T17:49:03Z madrik: hsaziz: Glad to help.  Just to cement this, read about removing and purging in apt/apt-get/aptitude/.
2020-02-23T17:49:09Z hsaziz: The thank you was meant to be addressed to madrik! Thanks to all.
2020-02-23T17:49:14Z jackdaniel: as sombody told: security takes all the fun from hacking
2020-02-23T17:49:33Z _death: madrik: either way you have to keep up with those.. you are responsible for your dependencies.. bad programmers think that by using a third party's update mechanism they are no longer responsible
2020-02-23T17:50:54Z pjb: "Distributions" of which the "package manager" is an essential component, are canned administration.  It's the way we've found to let end-users user computer systems that need to be sys-administred (this includes the mere installation of an application).
2020-02-23T17:51:24Z pjb: Basically, users don't get to do manage (ie. control) their own system.
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2020-02-23T17:51:49Z madrik: jackdaniel: I imagine a lot of consumer-grade firmware in routers/appliance-type devices is left to fend for itself after release.
2020-02-23T17:52:33Z pjb: 50 years ago, this administration was performed by people near the users (the *local* sysadmin).  But 40 years ago, when Linux started and distributions appeared, this administration became (pre-)performed by distribution makers, for remote users/customers.
2020-02-23T17:53:11Z pjb: The most refined form being Android and iOS…
2020-02-23T17:53:14Z _death: personally I disable all auto-update functionality.. it would not work for my grandmother, but it works for me.  auto-updates are also prone to abuse, breakage, and can be a source of uncertainty
2020-02-23T17:53:35Z _death: *would not = would perhaps
2020-02-23T17:53:42Z pjb: My mother called me yesterday because her iPhone was dead.  It was actually auto-updating…
2020-02-23T17:54:04Z _death: oh, I inverted the sentence in my head after writing it.. nevermind :)
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2020-02-23T17:54:08Z pjb: (I got her BOTH an iPad and an iPhone for those occasions!)
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2020-02-23T17:55:04Z amerlyq: _death: Actually, I find myself more and more disillusioned and tired from configuring system for myself as time passes. It was fun very-very long ago, and now it's simply painful. I glad somebody can do it for me so I could focus on problem at hand, despite shedding bloody tears from all the distro bugs which I fixed myself in the past.
2020-02-23T17:55:15Z _death: as a developer you want to maintain a controlled environment and not have changes suddenly appearing without your own knowledge
2020-02-23T17:56:25Z _death: amerlyq: I guess mileage varies ;)
2020-02-23T17:56:25Z madrik: I do wish that more people understood computers, if only to better do their own work, but I see that a lot of people just are not technically inclined.
2020-02-23T17:57:33Z madrik: Nowadays, I taught my Android phone not to tell me when things are updated.
2020-02-23T17:58:01Z madrik: It's useless, more so that changelogs are virtually uninformative
2020-02-23T17:58:20Z madrik: "Security and performance improvements" tells me nothing.
2020-02-23T17:58:36Z amerlyq: Yep, "Security of your device was enhanced". You got to download 1GB of Samsung bloatware updates.
2020-02-23T17:59:09Z _death: on mobile devices, auto-updates have been used to remove features, add malware (ads, tracking, etc.), and generally further exploit an established user base
2020-02-23T17:59:55Z amerlyq: You forgot to add "break things"
2020-02-23T18:00:06Z _death: but even simple look & feel changes make auto-update a bad idea.. this is by the way why I no longer update my stumpwm
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2020-02-23T18:00:29Z _death: angry commit message https://github.com/death/stumpwm/commit/f18f826890eecc1154c541d2de25bdd27bedbe4c
2020-02-23T18:00:39Z amerlyq: like broken google speech synthesis on Android9 when your screen is off despite whitelisting the app
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2020-02-23T18:01:10Z pjb: _death: amerlyq: yes,  but the contradiction, is that you also want up-to-date software, with bug, and security bugs removed as soon as possible.  Hence the need for perpertual sysadmin, hence the need for canned sysadmin. Hence macOS/iOS….
2020-02-23T18:01:50Z pjb: The only question is whether you accept a locked system, or if you want to be able to do your own sysadmin on the parts that matter to you.
2020-02-23T18:02:06Z pjb: So Linux + distribution is a good compromise.
2020-02-23T18:02:11Z madrik: And here I was under the belief that everyone deployed pi-hole or equivalent, ran Firefox on desktop and mobile with an artillery of extensions like NoScript and uMatrix, used DuckDuckGo, etc.
2020-02-23T18:02:12Z amerlyq: >>> as if it's some dude's personal project
2020-02-23T18:02:14Z amerlyq: You will be surprise to find out, that... it's actually is :)
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2020-02-23T18:03:21Z _death: amerlyq: it used to be.. then some other dudes started developing & using it.. but recently one of the new dudes started making weird changes and the other dudes merged his changes..
2020-02-23T18:03:43Z _death: so this dude stopped updating :)
2020-02-23T18:04:21Z madrik: _death: Reminds of the awful time in Debian with avconv, the ffmpeg fork.
2020-02-23T18:04:39Z madrik: They even had a message saying that ffmpeg was deprecated
2020-02-23T18:04:40Z pjb: systemd….
2020-02-23T18:05:01Z amerlyq: madrik: the more I got tired from complexity of literally broken world, the more I think to go the https://suckless.org way and use bare kernel plus 10 apps ~2000+ lines compiled from sources, which I know absolutely. Simply don't accept madness of external world into your own small isolated paradise for retired geeks.
2020-02-23T18:05:36Z pjb: Exactly.  or LFS.
2020-02-23T18:05:42Z _death: or CL :)
2020-02-23T18:06:01Z madrik: pjb: How did older systems like Multics or Genera handle this lower-level plumbing?
2020-02-23T18:06:30Z pjb: 10 apps you're counting large.  I use basically 2, a web browser and emacs.  Ok, add 2 or 3 more apps, and the rest is basic unix CLI stuff I compile myself.
2020-02-23T18:06:41Z pjb: madrik: they just had sysadmin.
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2020-02-23T18:06:49Z pjb: TEAMS of sysdamins!
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2020-02-23T18:07:15Z pjb: Well, not Genera. Genera I guess was more like early PC, where the sysadmin was performed by sophisticated users.
2020-02-23T18:07:26Z amerlyq: >>> new dudes started making weird changes and the other dudes merged his changes
2020-02-23T18:07:28Z amerlyq: It's a pitiful, but the only way for FOSS to exist. Evolve or die. ZeroMQ/P.Hintjens books and nanomsg postmortem are nice read on topic.
2020-02-23T18:07:28Z pjb: And Genera is a developer system anyways, so…
2020-02-23T18:07:37Z madrik: Heh, nice.  But I mean, what was the analog of systemd/launchd?
2020-02-23T18:08:19Z pjb: amerlyq: the assumption of FOSS is that users are developers that will inspect, modify and compile themselves their program from sources.  Or hire a developer to do it for them.
2020-02-23T18:08:28Z _death: amerlyq: this is wrong.. stumpwm is meant to be customizable software.. this means there's no need to change the default look & feel for everyone, every time you feel like something's wrong
2020-02-23T18:08:52Z pjb: amerlyq: the answer of people is clear, AAPL >$1B  FSF ~= $0.
2020-02-23T18:09:25Z pjb: (even if RedHat CEO became IBM CEO, but that's more the fault of IBM than anything else).
2020-02-23T18:09:45Z _death: amerlyq: those recent changes should belong in someone's ~/.stumpwmrc or maybe his own fork, but they should not belong to upstream
2020-02-23T18:10:58Z _death: the same goes to all customizable software, including programming language implementations and their specifications btw
2020-02-23T18:13:31Z amerlyq: "personal customizable software" -- you fork whatever version you like and freeze it / customize yourself. If project looses "pulse of life" maintained even through adding maddening/unrelated changes, it stales. Changes attract new people despite losing some people -- you simply must not lose faster than you attract. Contradictory by itself, but people love "living" soft, not stale one. Therefore
2020-02-23T18:13:31Z pjb: madrik: very simple.  The kernel forks the process ID 1 (hardwired or parameter to the kernel in the boot) /bin/init.  The /bin/init program initialize some stuff, and runs the script /etc/rc (which runs the script /etc/rc.local), then it reaps orphaned children.
2020-02-23T18:13:33Z amerlyq: Lisp is somewhat odd one.
2020-02-23T18:13:42Z _death: stability is frequently underrated, but here in Lisp-land we have a more balanced view.. shame that some projects are affected by new blood bringing alien values
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2020-02-23T18:14:49Z pjb: madrik: sysv added already some complications with /etc/init.d/rc.* and interdependent service rc files with boot levels…
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2020-02-23T18:15:55Z pjb: madrik: you could install yourself a LFS for the fun.  It'd take a rainy Sunday. You can do that in a VM…
2020-02-23T18:16:24Z _death: amerlyq: freezing is an extreme that is usually unnecessary in Lisp-land.. if someone wants to keep injecting software with changes, usually the way is to fork it (see slime vs. sly).. in this case, the stability profile of a project changed
2020-02-23T18:16:38Z pjb: madrik: also, have a look at http://informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
2020-02-23T18:16:40Z amerlyq: _death: But... how your project will go on living, if you lose personal interest in maintaining it? Nobody will resurrect your code staled for 10+ years for them to continue -- they will better write their own, worse alternative. But if it still struggled through somebody's efforts in whatever form -- they would choose it and continue your project.
2020-02-23T18:18:00Z _death: amerlyq: not sure what you're getting at.. people "resurrect" Lisp code all the time..
2020-02-23T18:18:10Z _death: amerlyq: because we have a stable language, it's easy
2020-02-23T18:18:31Z amerlyq: Yep, Lisp is odd. That's nice.
2020-02-23T18:18:40Z pjb: Indeed.  A big difficulty when you want to use old code, is to locate old compilers and old libraries to compile it…
2020-02-23T18:18:46Z pjb: Not so with CL.
2020-02-23T18:19:16Z _death: just recently Xach resurrected a system from the 70s, I think.. OPS5
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2020-02-23T18:19:41Z amerlyq: People often has misconception of "obsolete code". Psychology, nothing more. Unrelated to tools and efforts.
2020-02-23T18:20:29Z _death: oh, 80s
2020-02-23T18:21:00Z amerlyq: By the way, on the lane of complexity: Is there any powerful language even more simple than Lisp, worth learning? I find myself dizzy from complexities of C++/Rust/Haskell/Erlang/J/Perl/Zsh and even Python and return to Lisp again and again despite innumerable years spent on them. Lisp is simple and nice, but I constantly miss... something intangible. Powerful static typesystem? Transparent debugging
2020-02-23T18:21:02Z amerlyq: facilities? System level integration? All languages are only disfigured compromises, even Lisp :(
2020-02-23T18:21:37Z pjb: amerlyq: FORTH, Prolog, APL, Smalltalk.
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2020-02-23T18:22:00Z pjb: amerlyq: Eiffel and Modula-3 are nice too.
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2020-02-23T18:22:49Z amerlyq: yep, I catch myself thinking they aren't bad to try after all. But... is it worth it nowadays? At least for pet-projects? That's the question.
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2020-02-23T18:23:37Z pjb: amerlyq: it's interesting to learn them, because when you're a lisp programmer, you can apply different programming paradygms in the same lisp program.
2020-02-23T18:25:11Z hsaziz: Is there an easy to follow tutorial, on using the Lisp debugger or trace?
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2020-02-23T18:26:34Z hsaziz: Also which debugger is easiest, and most intuitive to use? I realize they are usually attached to their individual compiler/REPL.
2020-02-23T18:29:27Z amerlyq: pjb: Mmm, it's more about "ultimate simplicity" or "intuitive reasoning", and not "even more paradigms to add to this boiling hell". I can reason for hours about monads and then restructure whole codebase in the name of pursuing intangible but important benefits, but... it isn't worth it for anybody reading my code -- because all these subtleties made it even harder to understand.
2020-02-23T18:29:56Z amerlyq: and then nobody can maintain/evolve codebase in the same way, I originally pursued.
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2020-02-23T19:39:55Z pjb: amerlyq: an important idea of lisp programming is that you write your code in terms of the solution. Basically, you just write a sexp that "express" the solution in terms of the domain.  Then, you implement the data types and operators needed to make this sexp run in lisp.
2020-02-23T19:40:45Z pjb: amerlyq: If a solution is a one-liner expression of monad, then just do that!  If it's a one-liner APL, do it.  If it's a one-liner prolog, do it. (or just a few tens of lines).
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2020-02-23T19:41:31Z pjb: amerlyq: https://alarmingdevelopment.org/?p=229
2020-02-23T19:41:59Z pjb: amerlyq: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAT4iewOHDs
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2020-02-23T20:04:13Z amerlyq: pjb: you have a point. A strong point for CS-educated workforce, which knows subtleties why from 1000 funcs/vars you must prefer this hundred over that hundred, or optimize cache lines for x86_64 arch performance, or etc. But then you deal with... not so educated or highly opinionated deluded people. And they are looking into the same codebase but don't see what you see. They see smth different, and
2020-02-23T20:04:15Z amerlyq: therefore evolve it differently.
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2020-02-23T20:08:30Z amerlyq: By any means I'm not justifying even more verbose language to declare everything explicitly. And maybe Lisp is the closest and cleanest thing we can get to express nested abstractions and their intuitive transition on code evolution. But vaguely it still feels... not right there.
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2020-02-23T20:16:02Z amerlyq: Maybe... the main problem we don't have an "single abstract language to describe abstractions" like Math does, so everybody could speak the same language and naturally "learn" new things on the foundations of previous ones. Instead we have memorized patterns, idioms, cool hacks, dirty hacks... We call some bunch of lines as "AAA idiom" and we can spot it in code (but others cannot). There is no way
2020-02-23T20:16:04Z amerlyq: to teach the language itself to have it (Lisp has the least problems here, actually). And therefore everybody is forced to learn multiple languages at the same time -- Lisp, Math, CS, "common sense", etc. resulting in fragmented and incompatible comprehension.
2020-02-23T20:17:24Z p_l: I'd argue that Math doesn't have single abstract language either, but there's enough of commonly accepted one that people can get through to the point of defining new ones
2020-02-23T20:17:54Z Odin-: There's a lot of fragmentation in various subfields there, yeah.
2020-02-23T20:19:00Z Odin-: I don't think lambda calculus makes much sense to mathematicians who haven't encountered it before, for instance.
2020-02-23T20:19:17Z amerlyq: Yep, anyway, pjb, thanks for links, it was interesting to skim through.
2020-02-23T20:21:13Z amerlyq: Oh, in continuation to the topic of handling the complexity: how your cognitive load fares on large Lisp systems over >100 classes and >1000 functions?
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2020-02-23T20:24:06Z amerlyq: What I mean is: it's easy to prove each small function is correct in Haskell by using typesystem, and it's easy to prove it's correct by playing with it in Lisp interactively. But to prove the system as whole is still doing what you expect (vaguely fantasize) it to do -- how hard it actually is?
2020-02-23T20:26:03Z amerlyq: I often observe myself being slightly lost and only 99% sure I know how my 50+ functions in module actually interact. With Haskell I top it by 99.9% sureness -- depending on correct (and verbose) types. But this remaining 1% is unnerving.
2020-02-23T20:26:15Z pjb: amerlyq: wrong. It's not easy to prove a function is correct in Haskell. What the type system is an easy way to prove it's NOT correct in some specific way.
2020-02-23T20:26:31Z pjb: amerlyq: it cannot prove it's NOT correct in important other ways, and it definitely cannot prove it's correct.
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2020-02-23T20:28:46Z amerlyq: at least it helped immeasurably to spot "accidentally broken" things on scale of practicality.
2020-02-23T20:29:16Z pjb: amerlyq: 100 classes, 1000 functions is nothing.  Android was 3500+ classes, * 1000+ methods ten years ago. Imagine the size of it now!
2020-02-23T20:29:18Z amerlyq: and with Lisp I constantly feel like I may broke something which I already forgot
2020-02-23T20:29:52Z amerlyq: I talk about pure CL systems. I don't dare to even tread that Android mess.
2020-02-23T20:30:04Z pjb: amerlyq: have a look at ACL2 (theorem prove written in CL and embedded in (a subset of) CL.
2020-02-23T20:30:30Z pjb: amerlyq: you can write algorithms and ACL2, and see how it feels to use a more abstract programming system.
2020-02-23T20:31:27Z amerlyq: is it practical for everyday use?
2020-02-23T20:32:50Z pjb: If your everyday job is to write proven programs, yes.
2020-02-23T20:32:53Z pjb: amerlyq: there are already AI that debug programs (at the cost of $8/hour of AWS).
2020-02-23T20:33:53Z pjb: amerlyq: you could implement one such AI for Lisp programs, and fear not anymore to break anything which you forgot…
2020-02-23T20:34:06Z amerlyq: I would liked to see how it will debug concurrently smashed stack under Java/JNI coredump
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2020-02-23T20:38:41Z amerlyq: Question is more about "human cognitive load" and how everybody cope with it. When I write several large functions, I can "control" how these functions interact between themselves, but all "chaos" is hidden inside these functions and break their contracts occasionally. When I write large amount of very small functions -- each one is crystal clear, but now "chaos" is hidden in-between all these
2020-02-23T20:38:43Z amerlyq: functions, it's ephemeral and even harder to debug when something is wrong. If you use optimal size of each function and their amount... you simply convert complexity to maintaining fragile stability.
2020-02-23T20:38:44Z pjb: amerlyq: on InterLisp there was such a programmer assistant.
2020-02-23T20:38:54Z pjb: It would comment on your code, and detect bugs.
2020-02-23T20:39:10Z pjb: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/interlisp/Teitelman-FCJJ1972.pdf
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2020-02-23T20:41:45Z amerlyq: Maybe systems in the time of InterLisp were less complex, less concurrent and less multi-functional~ ? :)
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2020-02-23T20:43:19Z pjb: May be AI had much less resources in the time of InterLisp, and nowadays you could tap the resources of Amazon, Google, Internet and the cloud to make something way more intelligent!
2020-02-23T20:43:45Z pjb: amerlyq: there's also code generation AI, so you don't even have to write the code yourself! Just describe your domain.
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2020-02-23T20:51:31Z amerlyq: you meant "write even more complex and uncontrollable mess" :) I somehow relate to V.Vinge "A Deepness in the Sky" vision of future of "broken layers over broken layers of software". Ok, lets wait until AI will consolidate everything and salvage everybody... in some unacceptable ways :)
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2020-02-23T20:53:26Z pjb: amerlyq: apply this AI mess to itself to clean it up!
2020-02-23T20:54:30Z amerlyq: Yep, it's exactly what I meant by "consolidate everything". And as humans are the main factor for creating more and more chaos inside resulting system... there is the obvious way to fix it for AI.
2020-02-23T20:54:40Z _death: we're in another AI winter.. it's been reduced to function fitting
2020-02-23T20:55:48Z _death: giving what the industry does with it, it's for the best..
2020-02-23T20:55:52Z _death: *given
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2020-02-23T21:00:24Z amerlyq: Is there any small but nice example of extensive use of typesystem in Lisp? Most libs I see are fit into two extremities -- very weak typesystem usage, or very complex by itself to see through.
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2020-02-24T04:27:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-24T04:28:20Z madrik: It seems to me that Racket and the group behind it may be somewhat what amerlyq is looking for
2020-02-24T04:30:39Z madrik: pjb: And those links are indeed great reading.
2020-02-24T04:34:31Z aeth: It's hard to find a good example of type system usage because the syntax is a bit awkward in vanilla Lisp, so pretty much anyone who heavily relies on types will use a macro, probably their own.
2020-02-24T04:36:08Z aeth: And e.g. (unsigned-byte 32) is pretty verbose, even though it's the most general purpose way to do it, so if you have a bunch of integer sizes in your code, you're probably using shorthand names (and the only conventional one is octet for ub 8)
2020-02-24T04:36:39Z aeth: So that's probably why it becomes hard to see through
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2020-02-24T05:06:05Z pjb: aeth: the CL type system is a good example of a type system: (+ 1 "42") #| ERROR: The value "42" is not of the expected type number. |#
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2020-02-24T05:28:24Z aeth: pjb: CL is one of the most typed dynamically typed languages because (1) it's not a coercive language like you said and (2) it's not particularly duck typed either
2020-02-24T05:28:47Z aeth: plus, it's effectively 'gradually typed' about 15-20 years before it was cool
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2020-02-24T05:32:19Z aeth: (by #2 I mean, most things are for a given type or an error)
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2020-02-24T05:41:27Z LdBeth: Plus, type systems that are not capable of expressing abstract algebra suck
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2020-02-24T11:27:55Z Odin-: From the documentation, it looks like CMUCL/SBCL put a lot more emphasis on working with the type system than most (all?) other implementations.
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2020-02-24T11:46:07Z p_l: Odin-: CMU originally did big push in type system for purposes of optimalization
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2020-02-24T12:52:47Z amerlyq: Odin-: did you found any nice looking example of using typesystem by CMUCL/SBCL ?
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2020-02-24T18:12:12Z alandipert: do any emacs users know if it's possible to specify the lisp-mode syntax of def* forms introduced in a Lisp file, using file-local variables or similar mechanism?
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2020-02-24T18:14:28Z Xach: alandipert: i don't know how to do it locally, only globally for the mode.
2020-02-24T18:15:33Z splittist: alandipert: trivial-indent?
2020-02-24T18:15:55Z alandipert: Xach thanks, i'm in the same boat. i found https://stackoverflow.com/a/4356877 but involves Eval:
2020-02-24T18:16:31Z alandipert: splittist thanks, i'll look into it
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2020-02-24T18:17:27Z alandipert: although hm, looks like trivial-indent is a SLIME thing, and i'm not using SLIME
2020-02-24T18:18:36Z splittist: <sharp intake of breath>
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2020-02-24T18:24:47Z splittist: Which highly obvious library translated from html entities to (nonstandard) lisp characters?
2020-02-24T18:24:58Z splittist: s/translated/translates/
2020-02-24T18:26:17Z Shinmera: plump does that
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2020-02-24T18:26:41Z Shinmera: Colleen: look up plump decode-entities
2020-02-24T18:26:41Z Colleen: Function plump-dom:decode-entities https://shinmera.github.io/plump#FUNCTION%20PLUMP-DOM%3ADECODE-ENTITIES
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2020-02-24T18:27:58Z splittist: Shinmera: ! Thankyou!
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2020-02-24T18:32:30Z Xach: Shinmera: did you see the error in http://report.quicklisp.org/2020-02-24/failure-report/cl-steamworks.html#cl-steamworks ?
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2020-02-24T18:33:01Z Shinmera: haven't had time to look at my feeds today
2020-02-24T18:33:17Z Shinmera: oh I see, easy fix.
2020-02-24T18:33:25Z Shinmera: will get to it after dinner.
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2020-02-24T18:49:47Z Shinmera: Xach: should be good.
2020-02-24T18:50:55Z Xach: thanks
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2020-02-24T19:05:27Z Xach: I want to reach out to David Psenicka about FOMUS's inability to build, but i can't find any recent contact info.
2020-02-24T19:05:41Z sjl_: Xach: question about quicklisp: since bitbucket is ending Mercurial support I've moved my repos to my own self-hosted location.  What's the easiest way for me to get the new URLs into quicklisp-projects?  Open tickets for each project?  Open one big ticket?  PR quicklisp-projects myself?
2020-02-24T19:06:02Z Xach: sjl_: a pr is probably the easiest for me in this case.
2020-02-24T19:06:13Z sjl_: Xach: Okay, I'll send one later this week.  Thanks.
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2020-02-24T19:20:22Z d4ryus: alandipert: You can also put a property with the 'def*' name into [common-]lisp-indent-function, for example in your .dir-locals.el: (eval . (put 'define-something 'lisp-indent-function 2)) => define-something has 2 arguments, followed by the 'body'
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2020-02-24T19:22:35Z d4ryus: alandipert: haven't seen it much on common-lisp projects, but most guile projects often use them, for example guile itself: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/.dir-locals.el , works with any lisp tho :)
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2020-02-24T19:31:07Z edgar-rft: Xach: people using the old CL versions of Common Music, FOMUS, etc can be found on the cmdist@ccrma.Stanford.EDU mailing list
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2020-02-24T19:39:05Z developernotes: Earlier this month I had posted about the idea of a state of Common Lisp survey for 2020 on reddit. I received positive feedback on the idea.
2020-02-24T19:39:35Z developernotes: I have posted an update on reddit here for the survey: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/f8wqkj/state_of_common_lisp_survey_2020/
2020-02-24T19:39:56Z developernotes: Here is a direct link to the survey:
2020-02-24T19:39:57Z developernotes: https://forms.gle/Gr1i8NP9m2eLJeYR6
2020-02-24T19:40:04Z developernotes: Thanks!
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2020-02-24T19:58:58Z alandipert: d4ryus thank you
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2020-02-24T20:08:41Z Odin-: developernotes: Where's that list of licences from?
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2020-02-24T20:17:44Z jackdaniel: I remember I've seen a presentation about using KCL to write a game a few years back on some old console (commercial setting), but it was too slow, so they were transpiling source and then modifying it by hand
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2020-02-24T20:18:05Z jackdaniel: anyone remembers something like this? even better - does anyone have a link to this presentation?
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2020-02-24T20:19:30Z developernotes: Odin-: I used this as the source for license names: https://opensource.org/licenses/alphabetical
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2020-02-24T20:23:24Z Odin-: developernotes: https://spdx.org/licenses/ is more exhaustive, although I suspect it'd be best to have free-form text there.
2020-02-24T20:24:18Z Odin- just noticed that both CC0 and WTFPL were missing...
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2020-02-24T20:44:17Z develope1notes: Odin-: thanks, I've added CC0 and WTFPL to the list. I can adjust the overall list for next year.
2020-02-24T20:44:54Z Odin-: Excellent. :)
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2020-02-24T21:21:43Z metabyt[m]: developernotes: done :)
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2020-02-24T21:27:13Z no-defun-allowed: Sorry to effectively repeat what was said half an hour ago, but the Cooperative Software License isn't on the list and that's what I've been using for my last few serious projects.
2020-02-24T21:30:59Z no-defun-allowed: But that's used by exactly 4 projects on GitHub, so it's probably not statistics-worthy.
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2020-02-24T21:39:28Z Odin-: Hmm.
2020-02-24T21:39:42Z Odin-: DDG seems to have trouble. Have a link?
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2020-02-24T21:42:53Z no-defun-allowed: http://eunichx.us/c/csl-2019-05-07.txt
2020-02-24T21:44:39Z Odin-: Hmm. Technically neither a free software nor open source licence.
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2020-02-24T21:46:15Z no-defun-allowed: Pity.
2020-02-24T21:46:36Z Odin-: *shrug*
2020-02-24T21:47:39Z no-defun-allowed shrugs back
2020-02-24T21:47:45Z Odin-: It's a recurrent theme, trying to use licencing to accomplish goals that sit completely outside of what licencing meaningfully can do.
2020-02-24T21:47:59Z Odin-: Same for various licences that tried to prevent use in military equipment.
2020-02-24T21:48:20Z Odin-: It's ... a noble goal, but really doesn't accomplish a damned thing.
2020-02-24T21:49:24Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, I heard that a few licenses can't actually be held, for some reason that I forgot, but probably relates to copyright law.
2020-02-24T21:51:38Z no-defun-allowed: In my opinion, they're still much less "out there" than many EULAs for commercial software products, but the publishers of those know lawyers and I don't.
2020-02-24T21:51:49Z Odin-: Dunno, the main issue I see here is that "commercial purposes" is differently defined in various jurisdictions.
2020-02-24T21:52:21Z Odin-: The local reading here would, for instance, prohibit the use of the software in fundraising for a union.
2020-02-24T21:53:05Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe it would help to add a definition of "commercial"?
2020-02-24T21:53:48Z z147: creative commons goes over the issues with defining commercial https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/NonCommercial_interpretation
2020-02-24T21:54:13Z no-defun-allowed: It would be ironic for a union to not be a "worker-owned collective", which is explicitly allowed in the license. Maybe that needs definition, too.
2020-02-24T21:54:14Z z147: One of the issues is the cozy marriage between capitalist governments and enterprise
2020-02-24T21:55:02Z Bike: i dig the boldface "we're not trying to be lawyers, please don't kill us bar associations" warnings
2020-02-24T21:55:03Z z147: For example, US government giving private contractors access to software licensed under non-commercial could be seen as non-commercial, etc etc
2020-02-24T21:55:19Z splittist: If the energy programmers spent on thinking and arguing about software licences was spent on programming...
2020-02-24T21:55:20Z Odin-: no-defun-allowed: Unions are generally not 'worker-owned' but some form of "self-owned".
2020-02-24T21:56:02Z Bike: we could have THOUSANDS of left pad implementations by now
2020-02-24T21:56:16Z Odin-: Otherwise a member leaving would have a claim on the union's resources.
2020-02-24T21:56:47Z no-defun-allowed: splittist: Please, it's only been 11 minutes.
2020-02-24T21:58:00Z Odin-: splittist: There'd just be something else to argue over. Editors and OS choice, and so on.
2020-02-24T21:58:01Z z147: If only the plebs would concentrate on providing maximum value to the masters!
2020-02-24T21:58:30Z Bike: well, it is off topic here.
2020-02-24T21:58:40Z Bike: hadn't thought about that about union ownership though. good to know
2020-02-24T21:59:00Z Odin-: Fair point.
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2020-02-24T22:02:23Z stylewarning: anybody have info/tips on running Lisp subprocesses/fork/etc? I don't mean shelling out.
2020-02-24T22:06:55Z White_Flame: pretty much the same as C forking, as far as I can tell
2020-02-24T22:06:59Z Odin-: That puts you pretty squarely in implementation-defined territory.
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2020-02-24T22:11:36Z stylewarning: i was hoping there'd be a nice interface out there for managing child processes and the like
2020-02-24T22:12:09Z White_Flame: how often is it used nowadays?
2020-02-24T22:12:44Z stylewarning: well truth be told i want to manage python subprocesses
2020-02-24T22:12:52Z White_Flame: there are libs for non-forked process management, I think UIOP contains some of that, and some trivial-*
2020-02-24T22:12:54Z stylewarning: since the embeddable python interpreter has global state
2020-02-24T22:13:43Z White_Flame: uh, so is this a python-in-lisp, or FFI to a C python?
2020-02-24T22:14:27Z stylewarning: FFI to cpython
2020-02-24T22:14:47Z White_Flame: can python fork itself?  might be better to have standalone python do tha
2020-02-24T22:14:50Z White_Flame: +t
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2020-02-24T22:15:52Z stylewarning: probably it can
2020-02-24T22:16:26Z White_Flame: I have no idea what devils lie in the details of the interaction between fork and ffi
2020-02-24T22:16:36Z stylewarning: me neither
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2020-02-24T22:17:18Z White_Flame: if anything I think our model will have FFI after forking, not before
2020-02-24T22:17:25Z Odin-: I would expect to tread carefully, because Common Lisp really doesn't make many concessions to the process model.
2020-02-24T22:18:02Z iAmDecim: so quick question. i've definitely had slime working on my macbook before. I just recently tried to start up a repl and I added (load "~/quicklisp/setup.lisp") to my init.el file and it's giving me void-function defpackage
2020-02-24T22:18:37Z iAmDecim: i've never seen that before.
2020-02-24T22:18:46Z Odin-: Yes. setup.lisp is for the Common Lisp implementation, not Emacs.
2020-02-24T22:18:53Z White_Flame: that setup.lisp is for your common lisp startup (eg .sbclrc).  it's not emacs lisp
2020-02-24T22:19:25Z White_Flame: there are quicklisp helpers to install all that for you; you shouldn't have to do it manually
2020-02-24T22:19:29Z White_Flame: just check the docs
2020-02-24T22:19:58Z iAmDecim: oh....ok. i took a wrong path. i'll go back.  I know years ago I had to add something funny to give it the path.  time to do some pruning
2020-02-24T22:20:58Z White_Flame: "The function ql:add-to-init-file will add code to do this to your init file automatically, so Quicklisp will load whenever your Common Lisp session starts."
2020-02-24T22:22:08Z iAmDecim: got it...i did add-to-init-file but i didn't install slime-helper.
2020-02-24T22:23:14Z pjb: 22
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2020-02-24T22:27:42Z jmercouris: what's a good way to capture stdout/stderror from a program not launched via terminal?
2020-02-24T22:28:07Z jmercouris: is this going to be largely OS specific? is there a tool to make this simpler?
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2020-02-24T22:33:52Z White_Flame: iAmDecim: slime-helper is when you get your lisp implementation, then quicklisp, then let ql install slime.  If you already have slime, then you don't need the slime helper
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2020-02-24T22:53:17Z pjb: minion: memo for jmercouris: stdout/stderr are directed to the same file descriptor as the parent process. So, what does the parent process do to them?  (It may redirect them to /dev/null). Inside the child, you can reopen or dup them.  What do you want to do?
2020-02-24T22:53:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
2020-02-24T22:58:18Z iAmDecim: there we go....no I can play.
2020-02-24T22:58:21Z iAmDecim: now*
2020-02-24T23:01:18Z iAmDecim: ok it's at least running but has anyone seen these warnings? https://pastebin.com/3cDZeUXu
2020-02-24T23:03:33Z White_Flame: you're probably loading 2 versions of slime on top of each other
2020-02-24T23:04:10Z White_Flame: (well, 2 versions of swank, the slime backend)
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2020-02-24T23:06:08Z iAmDecim: White_Flame: ahh..I bet I am.  Checking...I just tried to reinstall slime since it's been years.
2020-02-24T23:08:04Z White_Flame: because there are some sb-fm internals that aren't matching, and you're running a newer sbcl version, there's probably an old version of slime
2020-02-24T23:08:08Z White_Flame: *sb-vm
2020-02-24T23:10:20Z iAmDecim: yeah. i reinstalled slime. Restarting emacs just cut out a large portion of the errors...there's still one block. https://pastebin.com/HYRp0emK
2020-02-24T23:10:25Z iAmDecim: but better.....
2020-02-24T23:11:02Z iAmDecim: oh i see what you mean now....ok i'll play with that later. i bet i did install sbcl with brew and an older method.
2020-02-24T23:11:24Z iAmDecim: I'll play with this tonight. I really need to clean things up anyways on this laptop
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2020-02-24T23:18:57Z iAmDecim: ahh I'm learning. updating quicklisp, first day really using common lisp.
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2020-02-24T23:35:45Z amnesia1010: come any one see this:
2020-02-24T23:35:48Z amnesia1010: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfg7UJRKrkI3OjOHWL4xI-murE4LpQjIxsiAhFdPEmtyLX3kg/viewform
2020-02-24T23:36:35Z amnesia1010: A survey of Common Lisp users
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2020-02-25T00:08:54Z vms14: oh, I've mixed lisp and perl with sockets :D
2020-02-25T00:09:19Z vms14: (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-send *socket* (format nil "print STDERR 'meh';'as';~%") nil) => "as"
2020-02-25T00:09:30Z vms14: and prints to stderr on the perl side
2020-02-25T00:10:18Z vms14: this is nice, because now Lisp has all the perl modules available
2020-02-25T00:10:45Z vms14: well atm is just perl evaluating whatever it founds from the socket and returning the results
2020-02-25T00:10:48Z LdBeth: But why perl
2020-02-25T00:10:55Z vms14: LdBeth: I kinda like perl
2020-02-25T00:11:17Z vms14: it's a great language
2020-02-25T00:11:34Z LdBeth: I think I could do the same with apl then
2020-02-25T00:12:00Z vms14: just try, I suppose most lispers end using another language because lack of libraries or whatever in lisp
2020-02-25T00:12:18Z vms14: if the language you want to use has eval, you can just use sockets and make it eval whatever it reads
2020-02-25T00:12:33Z vms14: or predefine functions or whatever, and you can even return lists to the socket so lisp can eval them
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2020-02-25T00:13:18Z vms14: I had the same stuff but calling the perl interpreter, which is slow, now with sockets will be much faster
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2020-02-25T00:18:45Z no-defun-allowed: "I suppose most lispers end using another language because lack of libraries or whatever in lisp" What? Quite the opposite.
2020-02-25T00:18:57Z vms14: (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-send *socket* (format nil "@oh=values %ENV;\"@oh\";~%") nil)
2020-02-25T00:19:14Z no-defun-allowed: I've only needed to burgle-batteries to use a Keras model once.
2020-02-25T00:20:13Z vms14: well, you're right. There are a lot of libraries for common lisp
2020-02-25T00:20:54Z Odin-: I'd probably reach for a C FFI long before a tunnel to Perl or Python...
2020-02-25T00:21:01Z vms14: but sometimes you end needing to implement stuff by yourself
2020-02-25T00:21:12Z vms14: Odin-: why?
2020-02-25T00:21:21Z vms14: yeah, sockets+eval is a very dirty approach
2020-02-25T00:21:27Z no-defun-allowed: And by "quite the opposite", I mean I haven't really written any big projects in any language since I picked up Lisp.
2020-02-25T00:21:58Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: try to make a discord bot, you'll have to implement some stuff
2020-02-25T00:22:05Z vms14: same for a tg bot
2020-02-25T00:22:33Z vms14: you can, and it's likely that being implemented in lisp they'll be "better" software than in the other languages
2020-02-25T00:22:35Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/stibear/cl-discord
2020-02-25T00:22:40Z vms14: oh :O
2020-02-25T00:22:42Z Odin-: vms14: Because in my experience using a Lisp FFI makes even C interfaces workable in interactive development.
2020-02-25T00:22:57Z no-defun-allowed: https://github.com/40ants/cl-telegram-bot
2020-02-25T00:23:15Z no-defun-allowed: I'm not even trying to find them; both were within the first page of DuckDuckGo results for "common lisp {discord,telegram}"
2020-02-25T00:24:23Z vms14: nice
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2020-02-25T00:27:26Z vms14: well at least is an excuse to play with sockets
2020-02-25T00:27:27Z vms14: xD
2020-02-25T00:27:56Z no-defun-allowed sighs
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2020-02-25T00:31:47Z vms14: btw what type of stream is this one?
2020-02-25T00:31:50Z vms14: (defparameter *socket-out-stream* (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream *connection* :element-type 'character :output t))
2020-02-25T00:32:15Z vms14: by default is set to element-type 'character, so this is redundant
2020-02-25T00:32:36Z vms14: but I'm not able to use it with write-line write-sequence or write-byte
2020-02-25T00:32:58Z no-defun-allowed: All I can say is that it's a character output stream. What happens when you write-line to it?
2020-02-25T00:33:07Z vms14: it says it's not a byte stream with write-byte and not a character stream with the others
2020-02-25T00:33:39Z no-defun-allowed: What is (stream-element-type *socket-out-stream*)?
2020-02-25T00:33:47Z vms14: #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "socket /home/vms/meh.oh" {1003DA8B13}> is not a character output stream.
2020-02-25T00:34:02Z vms14: (stream-element-type *socket-out-stream*)
2020-02-25T00:34:03Z vms14: CHARACTER
2020-02-25T00:34:23Z vms14: it seems it isn't "output" type
2020-02-25T00:34:32Z vms14: because streamp says t
2020-02-25T00:35:03Z no-defun-allowed: That makes no sense, an output stream is a stream.
2020-02-25T00:35:07Z vms14: (output-stream-p *socket-out-stream*)
2020-02-25T00:35:07Z vms14: NIL
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2020-02-25T00:35:18Z vms14: yes, but not an output-stream
2020-02-25T00:35:29Z vms14: oh, it's an input stream
2020-02-25T00:35:33Z no-defun-allowed: Why not use usocket for this? That's much easier to work with.
2020-02-25T00:36:00Z no-defun-allowed: (usocket:socket-stream (usocket:socket-connect "127.0.0.1" 12345)) ; => a two way character stream
2020-02-25T00:36:02Z vms14: but I'm using (sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream *connection* :output t)
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2020-02-25T00:36:11Z vms14: no-defun-allowed: usocket has unix sockets?
2020-02-25T00:36:18Z vms14: I guess it hasn't
2020-02-25T00:36:23Z vms14: but not sure
2020-02-25T00:36:52Z no-defun-allowed: Probably not, but it can probably get the stream from a socket created with SB-BSD-SOCKETS.
2020-02-25T00:37:16Z vms14: hmm, ty for the hint
2020-02-25T00:37:38Z vms14: I should use usocket for portability, but meh, it won't work with unix sockets
2020-02-25T00:38:18Z vms14: anyway I can write lines with sb-bsd-sockets:socket-send and read lines without having to worry on sizes to read
2020-02-25T00:38:29Z Thilastiko: Hello World! I am new to irc on emacs and am hoping to find out if theres a channel out there for newbies
2020-02-25T00:38:36Z no-defun-allowed: #clschool
2020-02-25T00:38:53Z Thilastiko: clschool? thanks
2020-02-25T00:39:11Z vms14: also #emacs if you want to learn about
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2020-02-25T00:46:57Z LdBeth: Seems I cannot add new irc channels to Riot anymore
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2020-02-25T00:48:10Z LdBeth: Never mind, the problem’s with their web client
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2020-02-25T00:49:42Z no-defun-allowed: "LdBeth: you've been in a coma for 25 years" "oh, have they fixed the Riot client yet?" "lol no"
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2020-02-25T01:37:45Z vms14: https://termbin.com/xola
2020-02-25T01:39:24Z vms14: now the alien can eat onions
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2020-02-25T05:07:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-25T05:24:19Z ebrasca: Morning!
2020-02-25T05:25:47Z no-defun-allowed: Hello ebrasca.
2020-02-25T05:27:46Z ebrasca: Hi no-defun-allowed
2020-02-25T05:28:28Z no-defun-allowed: How are you?
2020-02-25T05:28:53Z ebrasca: I am fine!
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2020-02-25T05:29:26Z ebrasca: no-defun-allowed: And how are you?
2020-02-25T05:29:34Z no-defun-allowed: Alright, thanks.
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2020-02-25T09:05:36Z phoe: morniiiing
2020-02-25T09:05:48Z no-defun-allowed: Good moooorning phoe.
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2020-02-25T10:12:52Z phoe: `(m ,@'#1=(o . #1#) r n i n g)
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2020-02-25T10:16:35Z no-defun-allowed: 😟
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2020-02-25T11:05:09Z splittist: Given the string "/foo/bar/../baz/quux.lisp" I would like to obtain "/foo/baz/quux.lisp", and the obvious generalizations of this scheme. Because the string looks like a pathname I have been looking at various path-related things, but nothing and nobody seems to want to give me what I want. Am I just thinking about this wrong?
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2020-02-25T11:12:51Z z0d: splittist: doesn't cl-fad has something for it?
2020-02-25T11:13:36Z z0d: cannonical-pathname ?
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2020-02-25T11:15:01Z splittist: Except that I'm on SBCL (or CCL), and  "NB: Since this function does not access the filesystem it will only remove :BACK elements from the path (not :UP elements). Since some lisps, ccl/sbcl/clisp convert ".." in pathnames to :UP, and not :BACK, the actual utility of the function is limited."
2020-02-25T11:18:21Z splittist: I'll implement it myself. (It is verging on the Left_Pad level of functionality...)
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2020-02-25T11:26:34Z Shinmera: Colleen: tell splittist look up pathname-utils normalize-pathname
2020-02-25T11:26:34Z Colleen: splittist: Function pathname-utils:normalize-pathname https://shinmera.github.io/pathname-utils#FUNCTION%20PATHNAME-UTILS%3ANORMALIZE-PATHNAME
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2020-02-25T11:28:41Z Shinmera: that library has been tested on a few implementations at least so I know the stuff is as correct as can be :)
2020-02-25T11:28:47Z Shinmera: https://github.com/Shinmera/pathname-utils/blob/master/test.lisp
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2020-02-25T11:36:01Z splittist: Shinmera: thanks, but same thing.
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2020-02-25T11:37:31Z Shinmera: one of the problems is that it can't convert :up, since :up's semantics can differ in the presence of symlinks
2020-02-25T11:38:23Z Shinmera: I suppose an option in pathname-utils to not care about that would be nice.
2020-02-25T11:39:08Z splittist: Sure. But since my strings aren't actually pathnames on an OS with symlinks I can treat '..' as :back. (Option would be good (: )
2020-02-25T11:39:12Z Odin-: uiop:parse-unix-namestring ?
2020-02-25T11:39:17Z phoe: ^
2020-02-25T11:39:40Z Shinmera: pathname-utils should also really implement pathname parsing functions.
2020-02-25T11:40:04Z Shinmera: haven't gotten around to that, as with so many things
2020-02-25T11:40:16Z Odin-: Seems like it does the right thing.
2020-02-25T11:41:09Z splittist: Odin- and phoe: Yes! I had actually looked at it a while ago but didn't think it would work on the basis of the description of dotdot. 0 for reading comprehension.
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2020-02-25T11:42:06Z Odin-: Yeah, I wasn't sure so I decided to just see what it did. :p
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2020-02-25T11:55:46Z shka_: good day
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2020-02-25T12:03:02Z beach: Hello shka_.
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2020-02-25T13:20:53Z didi: What do I use to write a SETF variable that accepts a default value like `getf'? For example, (incf (getf foo :bar 0)) works even if FOO doesn't have the indicator :BAR.
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2020-02-25T13:29:27Z phoe: didi: (defun (setf my-getf) (newval place key &optional default) ...)
2020-02-25T13:29:56Z didi: phoe: Thank you.
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2020-02-25T13:35:36Z phoe: for GETF, though, you might want to write a more elaborate SETF expansion. There is no #'(SETF GETF), for instance.
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2020-02-25T13:35:47Z phoe: So a DEFUN won't work there.
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2020-02-25T14:04:10Z pjb: splittist: https://github.com/informatimago/ls-lR/blob/master/ls-lr-browser.lisp#L70
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2020-02-25T14:51:42Z _death: didi: actually setf function would not work.. you'll need to use another mechanism (for example defmacro and get-setf-expansion) because FOO may be NIL and GETF will need to modify the binding in that case
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2020-02-25T14:56:57Z _death: (ah, phoe already mentioned this)
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2020-02-25T14:57:15Z didi: _death: I'm using a combination of `defsetf' and `defmethod'. Something like (defsetf getf (place indicator &optional default) (new-value) `(set-getf place indicator value &optional default)), and `set-getf' is a generic function so I can use different classes of PLACE.
2020-02-25T14:57:38Z didi: With the missing , for the variables.
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2020-02-25T15:00:14Z didi: `defsetf' seems to be smart enough for evaluating DEFAULT before NEW-VALUE.
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2020-02-25T15:15:57Z phoe: didi: it's not the issue of evaluation order, it's the issue of modifying places.
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2020-02-25T15:16:16Z phoe: GETF might want to modify a lexical variable. A function is unable to do that; a macro is needed.
2020-02-25T15:16:49Z phoe: (let ((x 2)) (mutate x) ...) ; in here, MUTATE must be a macro, since a function is unable to affect the binding of lexivar X.
2020-02-25T15:17:43Z didi: phoe: Ah, interesting. I guess it doesn't affect me in my use case, but I didn't think of that.
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2020-02-25T15:23:10Z jmercouris: pjb: I just want to push their contents to a file as my program is running when launched via spotlight so I can have some hope of discerning *why* it crashed
2020-02-25T15:23:10Z minion: jmercouris, memo from pjb: stdout/stderr are directed to the same file descriptor as the parent process. So, what does the parent process do to them?  (It may redirect them to /dev/null). Inside the child, you can reopen or dup them.  What do you want to do?
2020-02-25T15:23:39Z jmercouris: pjb: because (as I'm sure you know) when you launch via spotlight there is not an easy way to gather stdout of a running program
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2020-02-25T15:24:30Z phoe: didi: if that's the case, then everything's good. DEFUN SETF is going to work well if you do not mutate the binding itself, but e.g. mutate some slots in an instance, or the contents of some cons cell.
2020-02-25T15:24:35Z jmercouris: vms14: usocket does not have unix domain sockets, use iolib
2020-02-25T15:24:53Z didi: phoe: Yah, that's the case.
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2020-02-25T15:25:26Z phoe: Then DEFUN SETF all the way you want, or DEFMETHOD SETF if you want specialization.
2020-02-25T15:25:43Z didi: phoe: Cool, cool. I'll use DEFMETHOD SETF.
2020-02-25T15:25:47Z didi: Thank you.
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2020-02-25T15:26:51Z pjb: jmercouris: the program itself can reopen its stdout and stderr to a file if that's what you want.
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2020-02-25T15:27:13Z jmercouris: pjb: yes, that is what I want
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2020-02-25T15:27:44Z jmercouris: I saw uiop:*stdout* and uiop:*stderr* not sure how to use
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2020-02-25T15:28:12Z pjb: jmercouris: so now you are changing the question!
2020-02-25T15:28:24Z jmercouris: OK, here's the ultimate goal
2020-02-25T15:28:27Z jmercouris: I launch program via spotlight
2020-02-25T15:28:28Z pjb: you asked for stdin and stdout which are POSIX file descriptors.
2020-02-25T15:28:40Z jmercouris: I want the contents of stdout and stderr redirected to a file
2020-02-25T15:28:50Z jmercouris: program == compiled lisp program
2020-02-25T15:29:02Z pjb: *standard-output* and *error-output* are different. You can also bind them to file streams, but this doesn't redirect stdout and stderr.
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2020-02-25T15:29:21Z jmercouris: I actually want *standard-output* and *error-output*
2020-02-25T15:29:27Z jmercouris: I thought *standard-output* also outputs to stdout?
2020-02-25T15:29:40Z pjb: So you don't fork other processes.  You don't use foreign libraries.
2020-02-25T15:30:00Z jmercouris: yes
2020-02-25T15:30:01Z pjb: You are only considering your lisp code.
2020-02-25T15:30:04Z jmercouris: correct
2020-02-25T15:30:36Z pjb: (setf *standard-output* (open "/tmp/out" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :append)  *error-output* (open "/tmp/err" :direction :output :if-does-not-exist :create :if-exists :append))
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2020-02-25T15:30:49Z jmercouris: ah, interesting
2020-02-25T15:30:58Z jmercouris: you know, that makes a lot of sense
2020-02-25T15:31:00Z jmercouris: thank you
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2020-02-25T15:31:24Z pjb: Check also *trace-output*, and *terminal-io* *query-io* *debug-io*
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2020-02-25T15:31:43Z pjb: But for a program launched from spotlight, I don't know what the 3 later are bound to.
2020-02-25T15:32:06Z jmercouris: that's OK
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2020-02-25T17:23:47Z RandomGuy74: how can i automate changing description keyset search order and applying description keys with no mouse input?
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2020-02-25T17:26:55Z mfiano: RandomGuy74: This channel is for discussions about Common Lisp, not AutoLISP.
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2020-02-25T17:29:57Z RandomGuy74: awesome
2020-02-25T17:30:07Z RandomGuy74: thanks
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2020-02-25T20:04:38Z Josh_2: Hey, dumb question but what chapter in SICP describes the programming style used in cl-ppcre, I believe It's used for parsing data etc involves conditionally calling lambdas or something
2020-02-25T20:06:50Z pjb: Josh_2: there are only 4 chapters in SICP, IIRC.
2020-02-25T20:06:58Z Josh_2: yes I see that :(
2020-02-25T20:07:11Z Josh_2: well anyway, I have seen code that Xach has made where he has done it
2020-02-25T20:07:18Z Josh_2: I don't know the name so I can only describe it
2020-02-25T20:07:26Z pjb:  Let's exclude chapter 1, that gives you P=0.3333…3…
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2020-02-25T20:08:56Z _death: Josh_2: https://xach.livejournal.com/131456.html
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2020-02-25T20:09:16Z Josh_2: Yes I think that's it _death
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2020-02-25T20:10:29Z Josh_2: I swear I read someone say that this something is done in SICP, I'm probably wrong though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2020-02-25T20:10:42Z Josh_2: Wait no, It's literally at the top of that post
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2020-02-25T20:16:21Z stylewarning: Are there any pre-baked libraries for UNIX IPC queues in Lisp?
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2020-02-25T20:19:37Z luni: yes in sicp there is almost everything :/
2020-02-25T20:22:04Z luni: anyway i still don't have a physical copy of that book :/
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2020-02-25T20:30:33Z dlowe: I used the tree of closures trick in one of my own projects
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2020-02-25T20:32:45Z luni: wow... which trick?
2020-02-25T20:34:07Z dlowe: You can "compile" a language by transforming it into lambda functions that do the operations
2020-02-25T20:35:20Z luni: ok... were lambdas represent the rest of computation i suppose
2020-02-25T20:35:53Z dlowe: https://github.com/TempusMUD/cl-tempus/blob/master/src/events/handler.lisp#L1072
2020-02-25T20:36:04Z dlowe: this and the functions above it
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2020-02-25T20:38:43Z luni: yes, having first class return points it's a lot useful
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2020-02-25T20:45:09Z luni: another cool thing is closure conversion, but actually i'm still trying to figure out what to do with continuations
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2020-02-25T21:47:34Z aeth: I'm writing a string pattern matching macro, read-case, which reads characters until one of the branches is taken on literal strings or characters. Eventually, I'll optimize it so e.g. having "abc" and "aeiou" become #\a followed by a recursive macro call on "bc" and "eiou" branches.
2020-02-25T21:48:28Z aeth: I'm not using a library because I have to customize it to meet my needs of parsing quite a few different languages, but I'm open for ideas. e.g. expressing "0 or more" and "1 or more", or maybe mixing in something like regex or of equivalent power. Or maybe character ranges
2020-02-25T21:51:57Z Fare: ... ending with a grammar generator?
2020-02-25T21:52:16Z pfdietz: For efficiency hacks, look at string-case
2020-02-25T21:53:03Z pfdietz: (by Paul Khuong)
2020-02-25T21:53:35Z aeth: Fare: I mean, yes, actually. I think this should be powerful enough to do BNF->read-case, which then gives me scheme-read, which should give me the Scheme-in-CL.
2020-02-25T21:54:09Z aeth: pfdietz: Yes, this is essentially a string-case except instead of going string-by-string it's going read-char-by-read-char because either I'm receiving someone's string protocol or I'm reading a prog/config lang's file.
2020-02-25T21:54:39Z aeth: pfdietz: Currently, when I need to do stuff like this, I do read into temporary strings, but I don't need the inefficiency if I write this macro.
2020-02-25T21:54:51Z aeth: At least, not for the general matching. Maybe specific patterns.
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2020-02-25T21:55:51Z Fare: aeth, if you're going the Scheme way, what does CL buy you compared to say, Gambit or Chez or JS or JVM as the underlying environment?
2020-02-25T21:56:51Z aeth: Fare: I'm compiling a Scheme into CL, which gives me (1) close to the performance of SBCL when gradually typed as long as the CPS transformation doesn't kill performance and (2) the ability to use any library in quicklisp that doesn't use code-walking macros as long as I can trivially define Scheme procedures/etc. for each CL API
2020-02-25T21:57:21Z aeth: Fare: So essentially, high-performance+lots-of-libraries while actually doing less work than a from-scratch Scheme
2020-02-25T21:57:49Z aeth: Yes, the JVM would given even more libraries, but it would be libraries with more of a mismatch. Scheme and CL are similar languages, so wrapped CL should be idiomatic.
2020-02-25T21:57:57Z pfdietz: Heh.  Would this be faster than existing Schemes?
2020-02-25T21:58:02Z aeth: pfdietz: Ideally, yes.
2020-02-25T21:58:05Z aeth: When hosted on SBCL.
2020-02-25T21:58:14Z pfdietz: That would be something.
2020-02-25T21:58:50Z aeth: pfdietz: In my testing, ensuring tail recursion via trampoline in a DO loop has 0 performance penalty in SBCL vs. SBCL's own tail recursion (which isn't guaranteed, it depends on optimization levels, so I can't use it)
2020-02-25T21:59:03Z aeth: pfdietz: So as long as the continuation passing style also has 0 performance penalty or close to it, it will be as fast as SBCL
2020-02-25T21:59:06Z Fare: SBCL makes a lot of implementation choices that depend on not having call/cc. Implementing call/cc on top of that would probably make it slower than Gambit, Chez, etc.
2020-02-25T21:59:42Z Fare: Unless you go under the hood an implement some continuation capture deep inside SBCL, which is probably quite possible
2020-02-25T22:00:09Z aeth: Fare: Initially, it will probably not be as fast as it could be, but hopefully there will be a way to do it eventually.
2020-02-25T22:00:13Z Fare: (the problem then being—which implicit assumption of which operation will you then be violating)
2020-02-25T22:00:22Z pfdietz: Wait, so this would be Scheme but without call/cc?
2020-02-25T22:00:54Z Fare: already exists: bigloo with default compilation flags.
2020-02-25T22:01:02Z Fare: or stalin.
2020-02-25T22:01:03Z pfdietz: Ok
2020-02-25T22:01:50Z aeth: pfdietz: I'm implementing Scheme with CL lambdas. The most straightforward way to get call/cc from this is to do a continuation passing style transformation on the lambdas.
2020-02-25T22:02:16Z Fare: aeth, assuming proper tail calls, that should work.
2020-02-25T22:02:36Z Fare: But you probably shouldn't assume proper tail calls for CL dynamic bindings :-(
2020-02-25T22:02:54Z Fare: so no cheap scheme parameters
2020-02-25T22:02:59Z aeth: Fare: Proper tail calls are via a trampoline, i.e. return a thunk in a DO loop. This has no performance penalty in SBCL over SBCL's tail recursion which I can't rely on.
2020-02-25T22:03:14Z aeth: Fare: Dynamic bindings might be tricky...
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2020-02-25T22:03:45Z Fare: also, if you have continuations, please do delimited control, not (just) global control.
2020-02-25T22:04:03Z pfdietz: It will be mildly hilarious if this ends more performant than the dedicated schemes.
2020-02-25T22:04:30Z luni: why not global control?
2020-02-25T22:04:30Z Fare: it will
2020-02-25T22:04:33Z Bike: dynamic-wind is the hard part, i think
2020-02-25T22:04:33Z aeth: pfdietz: That is the intent, actually. This isn't very different from compiling to C, except this (CL) is a language with less mismatch in semantics so the compiler should be able to optimize more
2020-02-25T22:04:48Z Fare: prompt / fcontrol or shift / reset is much nicer than call/cc
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2020-02-25T22:05:14Z aeth: My intent is to "launch" on February 29th so that its birthday can be on a leap day. I almost did that 4 years ago, but delays came up and I put the project aside for other things. But I don't want to miss this opportunity again.
2020-02-25T22:05:24Z aeth: I'll "launch" without a complete Scheme if necessary.
2020-02-25T22:06:15Z Fare: does your Scheme have a name? I had names for Schemes... my favorite is Agley, as gang the best laid schemes of mice and men.
2020-02-25T22:06:46Z aeth: I have an idea from an old HN thread, but it depends on if someone took the domains yet or not. That's why I won't say it, either.
2020-02-25T22:07:00Z pfdietz: trivial-scheme?   cl-scheme?
2020-02-25T22:07:09Z z147: aeth lambda.church is available last time I checked
2020-02-25T22:07:14Z aeth: pfdietz: cl-scheme is the current working name, but it's not a good name
2020-02-25T22:07:15Z Bike: you have to name scheme implementations after crimes. that's the rule
2020-02-25T22:07:27Z aeth: Bike: I have to name it after a scheme.
2020-02-25T22:07:27Z pfdietz: cl-the-ultimate-scheme
2020-02-25T22:07:37Z Fare: election!
2020-02-25T22:07:46Z Bike: RICO
2020-02-25T22:07:52Z pfdietz: Biggerloo
2020-02-25T22:08:04Z aeth: Bike: I have to name it after something with com/net/org available :-p
2020-02-25T22:08:07Z z147: uncommon scheme it is
2020-02-25T22:08:24Z pfdietz: Ponzi
2020-02-25T22:10:15Z no-defun-allowed: aeth: is it going to be a particularly interactive Scheme?
2020-02-25T22:11:00Z aeth: Anyway, my first step is read-case, that should give me enough to handle the BNF that is in r7rs.pdf, which gives me the complete scheme-read. Then I'll have to find a CPS scheme, and after that, that's like 80% of a Scheme since I alrady have most of the Scheme->CL mappings written (e.g. + is just +, car is almost car but (car '()) in Scheme is an error, etc.).
2020-02-25T22:11:00Z pfdietz: Anyway, I look forward to hearing more about this.  Impressed.
2020-02-25T22:12:23Z aeth: A lot of the edge cases are already solved, like #f represented as a CL symbol, where CL functions are either wrapped as a procedure (nil is '()) or a predicate (nil is turned into #f which is something like 'false)
2020-02-25T22:12:52Z no-defun-allowed: We're considering the name Kaplin Scheme, but that is going to be a long way away. (Kaplin tried to assassinate Lenin, which makes for a funny contrast to Stalin as a heavy inlining compiler.)
2020-02-25T22:13:08Z aeth: And the case-sensitivity of Scheme is solved by inverting the case in the Scheme reader, i.e. scheme:foo is SCHEME:FOO, but scheme:FoO is SCHEME:fOo, so in the common case, there's trivial CL<->Scheme interop, but Scheme remains case sensitive
2020-02-25T22:14:00Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: what is your Scheme targeting as a platform?
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2020-02-25T22:14:24Z no-defun-allowed: Probably not Common Lisp.
2020-02-25T22:16:37Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: As for the interactivity, I would ideally have the same interactive development semantics as SLIME, ideally even accessing it through SLIME. Continuations might make this complicated because "stale" bindings matter more
2020-02-25T22:17:43Z aeth: no-defun-allowed: Also, the global Scheme binding environment is a bit complicated because there are no lexical globals in most CLs. Portable CL has dynamic/special globals, and non-portable CL extensions (e.g. in SBCL) tend to provide globals where you can't locally override them at all
2020-02-25T22:17:59Z aeth: So the REPL and the global redefinitions would be complicated for that reason
2020-02-25T22:19:27Z aeth: On the other hand, Lisp-1 vs. Lisp-2 is no deal at all because a Lisp-1 inside of a Lisp-2 is just a Lisp where you store (unnamed) lambdas in the variable namespace.
2020-02-25T22:19:35Z aeth: s/no deal/no big deal/
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2020-02-25T22:22:49Z aeth: pfdietz: Thanks! Barring complications, I'll have something on the 29th, even if it's not complete. SCHEME-READ should be done. Continuations might not be. Hygienic macros, probably won't be ready. As for a few really weird procedures like rationalize, they'll almost certainly not be ready in time.
2020-02-25T22:24:41Z aeth: A mutable "global" (within the Scheme) binding environment (which I think no-defun-allowed wants?) is going to be tricky and might not be there initially. I might also have to pay close attention to the equality testing predicates to ensure that the semantics match the r7rs spec.
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2020-02-25T22:28:22Z aeth: Excluding a macro system and call/cc, I've been sitting on like 80% of a Scheme for years, just with an incomplete, not general enough read, which is why I'm trying to write a pattern-matching read-case that is equally as powerful as the BNF used in r7rs.pdf, guaranteeing complete reading.
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2020-02-25T22:31:45Z aeth: Oh, one final thing... no CLOS wrapping on launch (but generic functions are just functions, so they can still be wrapped like any other function if DEFMETHODs are defined in CL) and no guarantee of keyword support at launch, either.
2020-02-25T22:34:12Z aeth: I'm targeting r7rs small, which isn't much. There will be a full CL wrapping at some later point, for things like GETHASH and MAKE-HASH-TABLE, as well as AREF and MAKE-ARRAY, probably the most interesting data structure features of CL
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2020-02-25T22:35:56Z reepca: I'm in a pickle with pathnames again... I've got the pathname of a temporary file from uiop/stream:with-temporary-file, and I want to rename it to a different pathname. Unfortunately uiop has created the pathname with :type "tmp", and I'd like to rename it to a file that doesn't have a type. But rename-file fills in any nil components with the corresponding components from the source pathname...
2020-02-25T22:36:49Z reepca: so as far as I can see, there's actually no way to rename a pathname that has a non-nil type to one with a nil type
2020-02-25T22:36:59Z reepca: am I missing something there?
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2020-02-25T22:40:13Z reepca: I guess with-temporary-file does provide an option for controlling the type, so I can work around that, but it does seem strange
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2020-02-25T22:45:53Z jcowan: Bike: Neither Chicken nor Chibi is a crime
2020-02-25T22:46:30Z reepca: hm, actually it seems with-temporary-file doesn't distinguish between the keyword-argument-is-nil and keyword-argument-not-provided cases...
2020-02-25T22:47:14Z Bike: jcowan: have you ever met a chicken?
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2020-02-25T22:48:15Z jcowan: Yes.  But they lack mens rea
2020-02-25T22:49:17Z Fare: I'm pretty sure uiop lets you choose the file ending for your temporary file.
2020-02-25T22:49:32Z Fare: But then again, I wrote that thing years ago.
2020-02-25T22:50:17Z Fare: reepca: the problem with nil vs :unspecified is that not all implementations support :unspecified as a pathname component
2020-02-25T22:50:44Z Fare: sorry, :unspecific, not :unspecified
2020-02-25T22:50:58Z Fare: See the definition for *unspecific-pathname-type*
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2020-02-25T22:52:58Z Fare: otherwise, you can of course escape to a shell and use mv (or ren if on windows?)
2020-02-25T22:59:17Z jcowan: guh
2020-02-25T22:59:36Z jcowan: fairly soon Windows builds can assume powershell
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2020-02-25T23:01:03Z jcowan: in fact probably right now if you drop support for Win7 SP0 and earlier
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2020-02-25T23:04:33Z reepca: Fare: I looked at the code, turns out there's a bit of a bug with with-temporary-file that isn't present with call-with-temporary-file
2020-02-25T23:05:10Z reepca: with-temporary-file checks whether :type is nil at macroexpansion time and omits the argument if it is
2020-02-25T23:05:48Z jcowan: I'm particularly interested in how Scheme looks to CL.  Do you have to funcall everything, or is symbol-function set for free when possible?
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2020-02-25T23:06:17Z reepca: but this means that the distinction between supplied-as-nil and not-supplied is lost, and not-supplied is the only case that can be expressed using with-temporary-file
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2020-02-26T00:27:36Z LdBeth: traditionally Lisp discourages using functions as first class objects
2020-02-26T00:29:15Z LdBeth: However Common Lisp absorbs the closure concept from Scheme, while it strives to remain compatible with older Lisps
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2020-02-26T00:36:29Z LdBeth: aeth: have you planned what kind of abstract machine model you're going to use when compile scheme to CL
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2020-02-26T00:38:27Z LdBeth: such as how would you represent Scheme closure in CL/would you perform optimizations before generating CL code
2020-02-26T00:38:29Z aeth: LdBeth: The machine is a trampoline that consists of a DO loop executing a returned thunk to get proper tail calls in all situations
2020-02-26T00:38:53Z aeth: A Scheme lambda is a CL lambda that undergoes continuation passing style transformations
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2020-02-26T00:42:27Z jcowan: LdBeth: In short, exactly how Guy Steele's Rabbit compiler translated Scheme to Maclisp.
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2020-02-26T00:46:25Z LdBeth: I thought it would be Appel's COMPILING WITH CONTINUATIONS
2020-02-26T00:47:12Z LdBeth: although I'm not very clear if LCF ML uses the similar approch
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2020-02-26T01:11:41Z Fare: reepca: patches welcome!
2020-02-26T01:12:04Z Fare: and apologies for the bug
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2020-02-26T01:47:47Z KahMue: Hi there! Does anybody know how, in qtools, to connect a slot to a signal that provides Qt-type like QPoint. I need to connect a slot to a QWidget::customContextMenuRequested - signal, that provides a 'const QPoint & pos'.
2020-02-26T01:47:50Z KahMue: How do I specify a QPoint - parameter in a 'define-slot' - expression?
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2020-02-26T03:54:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-26T08:15:47Z splittist: no-defun-allowed: isn't it usually Kaplan? (How about ML Scheme - or is that too Maoist?)
2020-02-26T08:16:03Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, Kaplan. I'm not good with names.
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2020-02-26T08:16:36Z no-defun-allowed: And no, Kaplan doesn't brutally optimise.
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2020-02-26T08:18:59Z splittist: no-defun-allowed: it's the old calculation problem...
2020-02-26T08:24:35Z no-defun-allowed: splittist: I would have picked someone like Makhno, who was on the receiving end of all that, as a namesake, but the almost-assassination felt more relevant.
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2020-02-26T08:25:48Z phoe: minion: memo for KahMue: (declare (connected my-widget (custom-context-menu-requested)))
2020-02-26T08:25:48Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell KahMue when he/she/it next speaks.
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2020-02-26T09:24:42Z Ampws: I wonder if I could use Mathematica in a Lisp program.
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2020-02-26T09:26:49Z Ampws: I learned that MMA is just like a dialect of Lisp, and uses M-expressions
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2020-02-26T09:27:41Z no-defun-allowed: I think the semantics of Mathematica are quite different to Lisp, and even to many languages. Something to do with pattern rewriting maybe.
2020-02-26T09:28:47Z no-defun-allowed: (And, maybe you can use it, but paying $344 for a programming language makes it hard for me to test.)
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2020-02-26T09:29:36Z Ampws: Err...I've already owned that:)
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2020-02-26T09:30:29Z Ampws: I think combining them would be very useful
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2020-02-26T09:30:46Z sarna: hi, can I somehow get a warning with this code? `(make-array 3 :element-type 'invalid)`
2020-02-26T09:30:49Z sarna: I'm using SBCL
2020-02-26T09:32:22Z Posterdati: warning?
2020-02-26T09:32:40Z scymtym: sarna: in SBCL 2.0.1, i get a warning "undefined type: INVALID" when compiling that code
2020-02-26T09:32:55Z no-defun-allowed: It might be possible to write (some of) the evaluation rules in Common Lisp. https://reference.wolfram.com/language/tutorial/Evaluation.html describes it quite accurately.
2020-02-26T09:33:10Z sarna: scymtym: oh, I have to compile it? I didn't get a warning in the REPL. thanks!
2020-02-26T09:33:55Z Ampws: no-defun, Thanks a lot!
2020-02-26T09:34:09Z no-defun-allowed: The description of HoldAll reminds me of...were they fexprs?
2020-02-26T09:34:26Z Shinmera: Ampws: could also use Maxima instead.
2020-02-26T09:36:29Z Ampws: Shinmera wow,I didn't noticed that. Thank you
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2020-02-26T09:36:55Z Ampws: no-defun fexprs...
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2020-02-26T09:49:46Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, fexprs. They're not really macros as they don't generate new code, but they get all their arguments unevaluated and choose which ones they evaluate. That seems similar.
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2020-02-26T09:55:26Z Ampws: I see...
2020-02-26T09:59:12Z beach: Speaking of Mathematica, my thesis advisor offered our high-performance rewrite engine to Stephen Wolfram, for use in Mathematica, but Wolfram turned down the offer.
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2020-02-26T10:01:11Z beach: Some day, I should try to implement our engine as a Common Lisp program.  The compiler for it was written in Franz Lisp at the time, and it generated VAX assembly code.  I am not sure whether it would be fast enough if Common Lisp code were to be generated.
2020-02-26T10:01:14Z no-defun-allowed: Oops.
2020-02-26T10:03:39Z Ampws: It must be a powerful program...and Common Lisp is the most powerful language
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2020-02-26T10:17:49Z jackdaniel: powerful in what? tug-a-war?
2020-02-26T10:18:11Z beach: The rewrite engine?  No, not particularly powerful.  Just very simple and with very simple semantics based on rewriting, so it uses outermost evaluation.  With this evaluation strategy, it is possible to define things like IF as functions, which is not possible with call-by-value languages.
2020-02-26T10:18:26Z beach: Also, very fast compared to other rewrite engines.
2020-02-26T10:19:30Z beach: if[true; x; y] => x and if[false; x; y] => y
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2020-02-26T10:20:13Z beach: I shouldn't have said "a function".  I should have used "rewrite rules".
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2020-02-26T10:21:57Z beach: But all that is off topic, so I'll quit now.
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2020-02-26T10:38:33Z no-defun-allowed: In a parallel universe where I asked follow up questions (such as "What constitutes a database in the programs you want us to write?"), I would have written an algebra system for my computing project last year instead of an accounting system. That could have been useful.
2020-02-26T10:39:10Z beach: Also much harder.
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2020-02-26T10:40:57Z Ampws: I found that maybe matlab could be run on lisp
2020-02-26T10:41:10Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, but it would require less fluffing up than the need for compressing an "inefficient" text database and writing a compression algorithm.
2020-02-26T10:41:22Z beach: no-defun-allowed: By the way, did they tell you your result?
2020-02-26T10:41:23Z no-defun-allowed: I haven't heard very many nice things about Matlab; why would you want to run it?
2020-02-26T10:41:51Z Ampws: nope I prefer Mathematica :)
2020-02-26T10:42:21Z Ampws: but I like lisp most
2020-02-26T10:42:35Z no-defun-allowed: beach: For Clomptroller? I only got a result for the whole unit (which also had my case study of a computer network) which was a B.
2020-02-26T10:42:52Z Ampws: err..(sorry for bad grammar)
2020-02-26T10:43:11Z beach: no-defun-allowed: That sucks, i.e. that you don't know the results for individual parts.
2020-02-26T10:43:21Z beach: But I think we discussed that problem in the past.
2020-02-26T10:43:39Z no-defun-allowed: Maybe I can email my teacher and see if he filled out the rubric. I think he was supposed to.
2020-02-26T10:43:58Z beach: I would be interested.
2020-02-26T10:46:41Z no-defun-allowed: However, if that is representative of what I achieved with Clomptroller, I would say that I blame myself for a. picking a domain I had little prior knowledge in, b. not taking enough time to learn said domain prior to planning a program that uses it. I think that forcing the students to use the waterfall model was also detrimental to the programs produced, and I found some of the steps redundant (like writing
2020-02-26T10:46:41Z no-defun-allowed: pseudocode for the compressor when I had already written Common Lisp code for it).
2020-02-26T10:47:56Z no-defun-allowed: no-defun-allowed: Maybe you should wait until you have more than two things to say before numbering them. Nice try though.
2020-02-26T10:51:24Z no-defun-allowed: Then there were some other "impedance mismatches" where we had to write out test tables and some other laborious methods of testing, whereas I was more comfortable writing test suites; and we were supposed to interpret the "design" stage as interface design instead of protocol design, drawing mockups instead of writing mock interfaces, and so on. In conclusion, I was quite disappointed with my performance in that
2020-02-26T10:51:24Z no-defun-allowed: project and a large amount of that was my own fault.
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2020-02-26T11:00:25Z no-defun-allowed: beach: So, I can guess that I had performed notably worse in those parts.
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2020-02-26T11:36:13Z beach: Hmm, OK.
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2020-02-26T11:40:20Z no-defun-allowed: I should not be lamenting over below average results while half asleep (nor is it exactly on topic), so I'll head off for the night. See you later.
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2020-02-26T13:01:12Z jmercouris: pjb: do I have to close the file?
2020-02-26T13:01:15Z jmercouris: pjb: I notice that both files are empty?
2020-02-26T13:01:22Z jmercouris: and yet, there is content in my slime REPL
2020-02-26T13:01:30Z jmercouris: maybe I need to launch outside of slime?
2020-02-26T13:02:21Z pjb: jmercouris: at least, you have to flush the buffers!
2020-02-26T13:02:53Z pjb: a log function would call finish-output or force-output…
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2020-02-26T13:03:24Z jmercouris: OK
2020-02-26T13:05:04Z jmercouris: still nothing even after force-output...
2020-02-26T13:05:13Z jmercouris: I think that slime may be messing with things here
2020-02-26T13:05:29Z jmercouris: strangely though, *standard-output* -> #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM for "file /Users/jmercouris/.local/share/next/standard-out.txt" {100936F393}>
2020-02-26T13:05:34Z jmercouris: so it does seem to be correct...
2020-02-26T13:05:37Z jmercouris: let me try literally printing lol
2020-02-26T13:05:58Z jmercouris: hm, it does work
2020-02-26T13:06:14Z jmercouris: it seems that I need to add an appender to log4cl to also append to *standard-output* or so
2020-02-26T13:06:39Z jmercouris: thanks :-)
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2020-02-26T21:19:34Z amnesia`: hello all
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2020-02-26T21:26:23Z jackdaniel: hey
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2020-02-26T21:33:43Z ebrasca: Hi
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2020-02-26T21:39:46Z travv0: howdy
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2020-02-26T22:01:10Z cgay: Is anyone here aware of anyone using https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/qitab/cl-protobufs ?
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2020-02-26T22:15:33Z jcowan: What is the current orthodoxy about the merits of using vs importing?
2020-02-26T22:15:48Z mrSpec: cgay: What is your question? I've tried brown/protobuf as it looked better
2020-02-26T22:16:14Z Shinmera: jcowan: don't use or import, use local nicknames instead.
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2020-02-26T22:16:57Z no-defun-allowed: jcowan: Many people avoid USE-ing packages, because they may cause symbol conflicts or their package may overwrite the used packages' state in some weird way, should they change.
2020-02-26T22:17:11Z jcowan: Shinmera: Not very portable, though
2020-02-26T22:17:18Z Shinmera: pretty damn portable now.
2020-02-26T22:17:28Z cgay: mrSpec: I'm trying to gather anecdata on whether breaking compatibility in that package would affect anyone.
2020-02-26T22:17:47Z Shinmera: The only impl without support (or announced support in next version) is Clisp
2020-02-26T22:18:30Z jcowan: So I see.  Thanks.
2020-02-26T22:18:52Z jcowan: cgay: If you are worried, fork it with a new name.
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2020-02-26T22:22:59Z Shinmera: jcowan: https://shinmera.github.io/portability/?r#trivial-package-local-nicknames
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2020-02-26T22:25:14Z Bike86: using is probably more common in existing code, though
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2020-02-26T22:25:33Z Bike86: than importation, i mean, no idea about local nicknames
2020-02-26T22:26:08Z Shinmera: More and more of my libraries are making use of PLNs, so there's at least some of that out there now.
2020-02-26T22:27:07Z jcowan: Okay, that's encouraging.  It's a nice convergence with Scheme, where all (pseudo-)package names are local.
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2020-02-26T22:30:51Z cgay: Shinmera: how are local nicknames achieved in practice? (Apologies, I'm only familiar with the way we do it at $work via a special defpackage* macro.) Pointer?
2020-02-26T22:31:19Z cgay: I see the SBCL-specific :local-nicknames option...
2020-02-26T22:31:28Z Shinmera: you just put (:local-nicknames (#:my-name #:full-name)) in your defpackage.
2020-02-26T22:31:55Z Shinmera: if the implementation supports plns it'll do the right thing. if not, it'll error.
2020-02-26T22:31:56Z cgay: ok, so that has pretty broad support?
2020-02-26T22:31:59Z jcowan: there is a runtime API too
2020-02-26T22:32:01Z Shinmera: yes
2020-02-26T22:32:05Z cgay: cool
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2020-02-26T22:32:17Z Shinmera: for the runtime API you need to use the trivial-package-local-nicknames library.
2020-02-26T22:34:43Z jmercouris: what is with this "trivial" prefix
2020-02-26T22:34:52Z jmercouris: it seems superflous
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2020-02-26T22:35:01Z jmercouris: isn't *every* library trying to make a task easier than it already is?
2020-02-26T22:35:37Z Bike86: it means the library itself is trivial, not its use
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2020-02-26T22:35:47Z jmercouris: it steel seems superflous
2020-02-26T22:35:50Z Bike86: it's like one file, that just conditionalizes on different implementations
2020-02-26T22:35:59Z Bike86: it is maybe overused, yeah
2020-02-26T22:36:11Z Bike86: but we don't always hold our meetings in Bordeaux, tragically enough
2020-02-26T22:36:18Z jmercouris: still* superfluous*
2020-02-26T22:36:25Z jmercouris: man what is going on with my spelling :-D
2020-02-26T22:36:41Z jmercouris: lol, soon enough
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2020-02-26T22:45:08Z _death: cgay: thanks for that protobufs reference.. I did not know about this library.. the brown one uses code generation, which is silly, and s-protobuf looked cool but was buggy and out-of-date.. this one's likely out-of-date as well, but maybe less buggy
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2020-02-26T23:02:53Z cgay: _death: why do you think code generation (via protoc) is silly?
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2020-02-26T23:05:26Z _death: cgay: CL is a dynamic, interactive language.. it's better to have a Lisp function that can read a schema and make it ready for use than to use a C++ tool to generate Lisp code every time
2020-02-26T23:05:54Z jmercouris: I'm having a fun time with some CFFI
2020-02-26T23:06:36Z cgay: A .proto file is the canonical definition of a protocol buffer. If you want to interface with other languages, you want your code to be compatible with the canonical definition.
2020-02-26T23:06:54Z jmercouris: Unknown GBoxed type 'WebKitNavigationAction'
2020-02-26T23:06:57Z jmercouris: YET!
2020-02-26T23:06:58Z _death: cgay: I believe the protoc approach came about because in C++ (and other statically typed language) such code generation is more tolerable
2020-02-26T23:07:12Z no-defun-allowed: You can generate the required classes and/or methods at runtime.
2020-02-26T23:07:13Z jmercouris: (defctype webkit-navigation-action :pointer) ; XXX: GBoxed
2020-02-26T23:07:39Z jmercouris: ideas?
2020-02-26T23:07:40Z _death: cgay: what you say is true, but I don't see how it conflicts with what I said?
2020-02-26T23:07:59Z jmercouris: he is saying that the standard IS the implementation
2020-02-26T23:08:07Z jmercouris: so if you want to implement the standard, use the standard implementation
2020-02-26T23:08:37Z jmercouris: much in the same way that if I write a new python interpreter and add some features and/or different behavior than the standard one, I can expect my python will not work with other people's code so nicely
2020-02-26T23:09:04Z no-defun-allowed: That really sucks then.
2020-02-26T23:09:33Z jmercouris: you know what really really sucks? cryptic code with many layers of indirection to the point where it is fully undebuggable
2020-02-26T23:09:53Z cgay: _death: let's assume there were no .proto file to syncronize between languages. What do you envision is keeping them in sync? good will? :)  It's the Interface Definition Language, to harken back to CORBA.
2020-02-26T23:10:55Z _death: cgay: I am not talking about proto:define-schema, which is nice to have, but something that can load a .proto file at run-time.. in C++ etc. they may assume it would have to be interpreted at runtime or something, but in Lisp you can just generate efficient code (say via COMPILE or EVAL)
2020-02-26T23:11:17Z cgay: oh. sure, that's fine.
2020-02-26T23:11:50Z _death: cgay: so then you have a load-proto-file and it's the lispy, dynamic, interactive way.. similar to LOAD
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2020-02-26T23:11:56Z cgay: just don't use define-schema directly. (unless you want to live in an only-lisp world.)
2020-02-26T23:12:05Z _death: cgay: instead of using protoc to generate a lisp file to load
2020-02-26T23:12:59Z jmercouris: here's the tough part, SHOULD THE STANDARD CHANGE, your Lisp code that generates the functions will have to change too
2020-02-26T23:13:08Z jmercouris: and so that is a moving maintenance target that I would rather not be responsible for
2020-02-26T23:13:10Z cgay: I mean, jmercouris is right, protoc is the standard.
2020-02-26T23:13:51Z _death: cgay: protoc is just a tool.. Google has a spec for the protobuf write format and interface description language
2020-02-26T23:13:55Z _death: *wire format
2020-02-26T23:14:14Z jmercouris: spec != implementation
2020-02-26T23:14:25Z jmercouris: the specification is most likely incomplete
2020-02-26T23:14:39Z jmercouris: the only true specification is the actual source code
2020-02-26T23:14:43Z _death: jmercouris: a spec is much better.. it is complete, because tons of google data is encoded using protobuf format
2020-02-26T23:15:05Z jmercouris: there are imprecisions in the spec that cannot be escaped, assumptions
2020-02-26T23:15:09Z jmercouris: unless the protocol is very simple
2020-02-26T23:15:26Z _death: and there are many tools to work with that, and they have a huge interest in maintaining backwards compatibility (that's a main reason for protobufs, after all)
2020-02-26T23:15:37Z jmercouris: but why is it called "protobuf"?
2020-02-26T23:16:03Z jmercouris: are you required to use a buffer?
2020-02-26T23:16:16Z _death: ?
2020-02-26T23:16:26Z jmercouris: I mean I get the "protocol" part of the name
2020-02-26T23:16:28Z jmercouris: but why "buf"?
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2020-02-26T23:16:49Z cgay: Protocol buffer... because it's a buffer for a gRPC message and is re-used over and over (usually).
2020-02-26T23:17:02Z _death: because you can serialize stuff to a buffer :)
2020-02-26T23:17:11Z jmercouris: you could serialize stuff to disk as well
2020-02-26T23:17:16Z jmercouris: why not call it protodisk
2020-02-26T23:17:22Z jmercouris: you can serialize to any data structure
2020-02-26T23:17:29Z jmercouris: in any case, it is a google product
2020-02-26T23:17:35Z cgay: protostrings
2020-02-26T23:17:36Z jmercouris: and that is reason enough to not use it
2020-02-26T23:17:38Z _death: jmercouris: you may have to ask the original authors
2020-02-26T23:18:18Z _death: indeed it's a google product, but one they've become very dependent on, so there are parts of it they cannot change
2020-02-26T23:18:33Z jmercouris: that doesn't matter, I don't wish to tie myself to their stupidity train
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2020-02-26T23:19:40Z cgay: works pretty well though. :)
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2020-02-26T23:21:27Z _death: jmercouris: there are other formats, but there aren't many high quality lisp libraries for them
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2020-02-26T23:22:21Z _death: and cl-protobufs looks very good.. written by Scott McKay and friends, after all :)
2020-02-26T23:23:11Z jmercouris: be the change you want to see in this world
2020-02-26T23:23:31Z jmercouris: if you are OK with that, then no problem :-)
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2020-02-26T23:26:23Z _death: there are also many projects that use protobufs already, e.g. openstreetmaps.. so it makes it easier to play with them
2020-02-26T23:27:22Z cgay: what are the competing technologies (I mean if we're going to ignore protobuf because of politics)?
2020-02-26T23:27:58Z cgay: I guess there's Thrift. What's the story for that in CL?  checking...
2020-02-26T23:30:43Z _death: thrift also had some Lisp pull request methinks
2020-02-26T23:31:00Z _death: there's also capnproto/flatbuffers/msgpack/etc
2020-02-26T23:31:58Z cgay: ah, right. thanks. (haven't looked at msgpack)
2020-02-26T23:32:00Z _death: oh, that avro thing..
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2020-02-26T23:44:46Z _death: ah, but cl-protobufs also has at least one bug ;).. and it's a FORMAT mess
2020-02-26T23:50:02Z _death: ":~packed" in the format control string...
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2020-02-26T23:53:18Z _death: it's the same mistake as protoc, generating code by piecing together strings :/
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2020-02-27T00:22:45Z _death: anyway, with a small patch it seems to work: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/1680#1680
2020-02-27T00:23:59Z _death: this is the patch: https://gist.github.com/death/736932ac3cd44b0541f1f4014484ac8e
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2020-02-27T00:39:21Z ebrasca: I don't know why I am geting 'System "next/ring" not found' . I updated someting and asdf can't load next.
2020-02-27T00:47:31Z ebrasca: Not sure if it is my problem or soemting with next.asd , need to ask jmercouris.
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2020-02-27T04:15:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2020-02-27T04:17:05Z Oladon: Morning, beach!
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2020-02-27T04:57:40Z verisimilitude: I keep seeing this stupid advice to avoid :USE, so I figured I'd start an argument about it here.  Also, this local nicknames nonsense isn't standard and shouldn't be encouraged.
2020-02-27T04:59:21Z no-defun-allowed: Sure. Here's my two cents: eazy-opencl is decent, except that it accidentally overwrites a macro in CFFI which I presume it did not have before.
2020-02-27T04:59:43Z beach: verisimilitude: You need to tell #lisp participants that you come here mainly when you are bored and want to argue.
2020-02-27T05:00:05Z verisimilitude: That's not why I usually come here and I don't usually visit at all.
2020-02-27T05:00:16Z beach: But you said that yourself in the past.
2020-02-27T05:00:20Z beach: I am not inventing anything.
2020-02-27T05:00:34Z verisimilitude: Isn't this solved by SHADOWING-IMPORT-FROM, no-defun-allowed?
2020-02-27T05:01:09Z no-defun-allowed: No, because this is an issue with "moving" expectations.
2020-02-27T05:01:26Z verisimilitude: What's the issue, then?
2020-02-27T05:01:50Z no-defun-allowed: When eazy-opencl was written, it assumed some properties of the set of symbols CFFI exports, notably that WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY was not exported by CFFI; but it is now.
2020-02-27T05:02:24Z verisimilitude: I suppose one of them should change, then.
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2020-02-27T05:03:19Z no-defun-allowed: Now eazy-opencl overwrites that macro, and code loaded after eazy-opencl that uses that macro could break in awkward ways.
2020-02-27T05:03:46Z verisimilitude: What does this EAZY-OPENCL do, anyway?
2020-02-27T05:04:13Z no-defun-allowed: It is a somewhat high-level abstraction over a OpenCL interface, which I use for my GPU-accelerated Petalisp backend.
2020-02-27T05:04:59Z verisimilitude: Is there any reason it needs the CFFI or would it be possible to interface with it in Common Lisp?
2020-02-27T05:05:21Z no-defun-allowed: Yes, OpenCL only exposes a C interface (to my knowledge).
2020-02-27T05:05:50Z verisimilitude: How unfortunate.
2020-02-27T05:05:54Z no-defun-allowed: And its use of CFFI isn't the problem here; the problem is that it :USEd CFFI and overwrote one of its macros.
2020-02-27T05:06:47Z verisimilitude: Both can be issues; anyway, this could be solved by changing either or using a CFFI before the change.
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2020-02-27T05:09:33Z no-defun-allowed: phoe often mentions a similar situation with Alexandria, where packages that use that could also break other packages subtly. That has a greater probability of being a problem, because more packages use Alexandria than eazy-opencl (which isn't even in Quicklisp), and it's often treated like a necessity like the CL package to use.
2020-02-27T05:10:10Z beach: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1529915782#1529915782
2020-02-27T05:10:48Z verisimilitude: I've had the misfortune of reading through code which uses Alexandria, yes.  There's no little good reason, I think, to not simply add to Alexandria if it's desired.  Fretting over hypothetical ``breakage'' is silly.
2020-02-27T05:11:00Z no-defun-allowed: (defpackage netfarm (:use :cl :ironclad :s-base64 :flexi-streams :split-sequence) ...) ;; There's something else I have to clean up, then.
2020-02-27T05:12:25Z no-defun-allowed: It's not really hypothetical; I just described a case where we got some breakage, and I am saying that for that one case with two seldom used packages, there are dozens of cases with Alexandria and everything that depends on it.
2020-02-27T05:12:44Z beach: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?around=1529916192#1529916192
2020-02-27T05:12:47Z verisimilitude: Thinking about ALEXANDRIA, I'm reminded of some discussion here where it was acknowledged a very inefficient implementation was in-place, where unnecessary.
2020-02-27T05:13:19Z verisimilitude: It's fine to design a library which isn't intended to be USEd, but to advocate against it entirely is silly.
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2020-02-27T05:14:24Z verisimilitude: An easy solution is to not use a newer version of a library unless you've audited it.  This does make the accumulation of dozens of dependencies harder, though.
2020-02-27T05:14:57Z no-defun-allowed: Sure, I'll name a case where it is useful: in decentralise2, I have a package decentralise-utilities that has parsers and generators for some of my internal formats, and some other macros.
2020-02-27T05:15:21Z no-defun-allowed: That is fine to USE, because I will always have control over that.
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2020-02-27T05:34:46Z asarch: How do you convert a string into a symbol and vice versa?
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2020-02-27T05:40:10Z no-defun-allowed: clhs intern
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2020-02-27T05:40:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2020-02-27T05:40:16Z no-defun-allowed: clhs symbol-name
2020-02-27T05:40:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_2.htm
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2020-02-27T05:46:24Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-02-27T05:46:30Z asarch: Thank you very much! :-)
2020-02-27T05:46:53Z verisimilitude: clhs MAKE-SYMBOL
2020-02-27T05:46:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm
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2020-02-27T05:56:39Z asarch: Thank you!
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2020-02-27T05:59:56Z madrik: asarch: What problem were/are you trying to solve?
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2020-02-27T06:27:08Z asarch: I read that old-school Common Lisp programmers used to do string operations using symbols
2020-02-27T06:27:18Z asarch: (From the "The Land of Lisp" book)
2020-02-27T06:27:29Z beach: asarch: That's because Maclisp did not have a string type.
2020-02-27T06:28:10Z asarch: Then I was wondering the way to accomplish this with nowadays implementations
2020-02-27T06:28:19Z asarch: I see
2020-02-27T06:28:31Z beach: It would be a silly thing to do now that we have strings.
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2020-02-27T06:29:21Z asarch: That's what I thought (for example comparing two records from a PostgreSQL cluster)
2020-02-27T06:29:21Z jackdaniel: asarch: just wrap every symbol in a function string
2020-02-27T06:29:36Z jackdaniel: and you'll be able to use string operations on symbol names
2020-02-27T06:29:47Z jackdaniel: (concatenate 'string (string 'foo) (string 'bar))
2020-02-27T06:30:38Z asarch: "FOOBAR"
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2020-02-27T06:41:56Z White_Flame: olde timey lisps would break apart symbols into lists of single-character symbols for processing, then intern them back into a single symbol
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2020-02-27T06:42:28Z White_Flame: foo => (f o o) => concatenate => (f o o - b a r) => intern => (foo-bar)
2020-02-27T06:42:38Z White_Flame: erm,without parens for the last one
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2020-02-27T06:51:27Z asarch: For example, the user will input random numbers until he inputs 'q' to exit and do the average of those numbers: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587907
2020-02-27T06:52:17Z no-defun-allowed: clhs string=
2020-02-27T06:52:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm
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2020-02-27T06:54:42Z beach: asarch: That won't work.  MAKE-SYMBOL creates an uninterned symbol.
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2020-02-27T06:56:19Z asarch: I now, even (string=) won't work when you type "1": The value 1 is not of type (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING SYMBOL CHARACTER)
2020-02-27T06:56:26Z asarch: *I know
2020-02-27T06:56:38Z beach: asarch: Also, why do you not call READ in the LET binding, rather than having a default LET binding and then assigning to it?
2020-02-27T06:56:39Z beach: asarch: And when you expose code, you should make sure it is indented correctly.  Common Lisp programmers rely on indentation to see the structure of the code.  If you have the wrong indentation, you force people to count parentheses which is not polite.
2020-02-27T06:57:05Z asarch: That's the identation from Slime :'-(
2020-02-27T06:57:13Z beach: Impossible.
2020-02-27T06:57:27Z no-defun-allowed: Balderdash.
2020-02-27T06:57:46Z asarch: https://pasteboard.co/IWAftGL.png
2020-02-27T06:57:51Z asarch: :'-(
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2020-02-27T06:58:24Z beach: asarch: Did you notice the CL-USER> that starts the line of the LET?
2020-02-27T06:58:30Z beach: And which is not present in the paste?
2020-02-27T06:58:34Z no-defun-allowed: Copying from the REPL is going to indent it funny, because the first line is "indented" less in the copied text.
2020-02-27T06:58:49Z asarch: D'oh!
2020-02-27T06:59:39Z asarch: Slime should have a "paste" option for such cases
2020-02-27T06:59:42Z beach: asarch: Clearly, you should not use READ if you want to enter things as strings.  READ will produce Common Lisp objects, like numbers, symbols, arrays, etc.
2020-02-27T06:59:59Z beach: asarch: You should not write code at the REPL, but in a Lisp buffer.
2020-02-27T07:05:47Z asarch: Bingo!
2020-02-27T07:09:35Z asarch: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/587909
2020-02-27T07:15:29Z asarch: I thought the REPL was for a "quickie" :-P
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2020-02-27T07:16:33Z beach: asarch: It is considered bad style to use an IF with only one branch.  The more specific WHEN and UNLESS should be used then.  There is a very general rule in programming, namely "use the most specific construct that will do the trick", so as to inform the person reading your code of your intentions.
2020-02-27T07:16:33Z beach: asarch: WHEN and UNLESS are more specific than IF, because they say that you are only evaluating the body when some condition holds, AND you are only evaluating it for its side effect rather than for its value.
2020-02-27T07:16:57Z beach: asarch: So you didn't post the code in order to get feedback on it?
2020-02-27T07:17:11Z beach: What's the point of posting it then?
2020-02-27T07:17:59Z beach: But that's OK.  Now I know not to bother.
2020-02-27T07:21:49Z asarch: Actually I did it. I like to know your opinion about my code because that's the way I learn the "good manners" in Common Lisp
2020-02-27T07:22:16Z asarch: I always write everything in my notebook :-)
2020-02-27T07:24:20Z asarch: You should write the "Common Lisp in 21 days" book
2020-02-27T07:25:14Z phoe: such a book already exists though and it's called PCL
2020-02-27T07:25:28Z phoe: (except for the day count)
2020-02-27T07:25:45Z phoe: also I don't think CL can be learned in full in 21 days, it takes a somewhat longer time to do that
2020-02-27T07:26:02Z asarch: That book is actually for someone who already knows Lisp
2020-02-27T07:26:17Z no-defun-allowed: No it isn't.
2020-02-27T07:26:27Z asarch: (Specially the part in the classes and their protocols)
2020-02-27T07:28:07Z asarch: For example, the part about condition gives me 1000 questions instead of show me the conditions in a very precise way
2020-02-27T07:28:19Z no-defun-allowed: Generally speaking, when you read a book, it is assumed you start at the start, and go through linearly unless you are already familiar with the topics covered.
2020-02-27T07:28:20Z no-defun-allowed: That is to say, that you are expected to know most of the content covered in the chapters preceding the chapters on classes and generic functions.
2020-02-27T07:28:25Z verisimilitude: I also find this insistence that using an IF with only one branch is bad style silly.
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2020-02-27T07:30:58Z asarch: Exactly. And the first thing you should learn is: Common Lisp IS NOT C/C++, why? Because most of programmers (if not all of them) come from C/C++
2020-02-27T07:31:16Z phoe: if you don't know C++, you don't need to unlearn it
2020-02-27T07:31:20Z phoe: that's also why Gentle exists
2020-02-27T07:31:25Z asarch: So, for example, when they want learn Python, they usually compare this from Python with that from C/C++
2020-02-27T07:31:35Z phoe: (and I am serious)
2020-02-27T07:32:14Z phoe: the fact alone that classes don't have methods tends to take a while to grok
2020-02-27T07:32:19Z no-defun-allowed: Or in other other words, you should ensure you understand the concepts presented in the book, before proceeding to read later chapters that will likely refer to those concepts, leaving you confused.
2020-02-27T07:32:23Z asarch: Gentle is worst
2020-02-27T07:32:50Z asarch: It should start with the scope
2020-02-27T07:32:55Z verisimilitude: I learned Common Lisp by reading CLtL2 and then a list of differences with the final standard.
2020-02-27T07:33:15Z verisimilitude: It's easy if one already has an idea of what Lisp is in general.
2020-02-27T07:33:45Z no-defun-allowed: "Lisp can be learnt in a day [citation needed], but if you know C, then it's three days."
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2020-02-27T07:37:13Z no-defun-allowed: verisimilitude: Somehow I think this may lead to a good application of <https://xkcd.com/2270/>.
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2020-02-27T07:39:05Z verisimilitude: What's your meaning, no-defun-allowed?
2020-02-27T07:39:42Z no-defun-allowed: One can formulate a good style guide and/or learning strategy by ensuring they don't do what you do.
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2020-02-27T07:39:55Z verisimilitude: Alright, that's what I figured you meant.
2020-02-27T07:40:54Z verisimilitude: It's amusing, because looking at the advice shared here gave me some inspiration for that most insidious stupidity to remark against in my style document.
2020-02-27T07:41:18Z asarch: A "Common Lisp for Dummies" book
2020-02-27T07:41:47Z verisimilitude: Have fun being scared of &AUX, USE-PACKAGE, and pretending your CFFI wrapper is a Common Lisp program.
2020-02-27T07:42:04Z no-defun-allowed: asarch: That's exactly what A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation is.
2020-02-27T07:42:29Z asarch: Really? Wow!
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2020-02-27T07:42:57Z no-defun-allowed: If you would like to recreate the OpenCL framework and the drivers for my graphics card in Common Lisp, you're more than welcome to.
2020-02-27T07:42:57Z asarch: Anyway, thank you very much guys!
2020-02-27T07:43:02Z asarch: Have a nice day! :-)
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2020-02-27T07:43:30Z no-defun-allowed: (And I think the Linux AMD drivers are open source, so you shouldn't have too much trouble with that :)
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2020-02-27T07:44:07Z verisimilitude: I wouldn't mind being paid for such, but I figure you wouldn't actually want to pay for it, and would simultaneously complain when it's AGPLv3.
2020-02-27T07:44:38Z no-defun-allowed: No, I can't pay for that, but I wouldn't complain about licensing.
2020-02-27T07:45:08Z no-defun-allowed: Did you know Petalisp and oclcl-petalisp are both AGPLv3 licensed?
2020-02-27T07:45:13Z verisimilitude: Well, you'd be better than some of the others here, then.
2020-02-27T07:45:21Z verisimilitude: I wasn't, no-defun-allowed.
2020-02-27T07:45:21Z beach: I can understand why someone would prefer to ignore conventions, but I can't for my life figure out why someone would want to encourage others not to follow conventions.
2020-02-27T07:45:45Z verisimilitude: Just because you follow them doesn't make them universal conventions, beach.
2020-02-27T07:45:51Z no-defun-allowed: verisimilitude: Kidding, lol no Cooperative Non-Violent Public License
2020-02-27T07:46:01Z phoe: it is high time to make tea
2020-02-27T07:46:03Z verisimilitude: Are you serious, no-defun-allowed?
2020-02-27T07:46:16Z no-defun-allowed: Very much so.
2020-02-27T07:46:18Z verisimilitude: Well, that's amusing.
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2020-02-27T07:47:33Z verisimilitude: Just because this channel is named ``#lisp'' and is on Freenode doesn't make it authoritative, beach, even though some would prefer to think otherwise.
2020-02-27T07:47:55Z verisimilitude: There's a similar issue with ``the front page of the Internet'' in thinking itself so important.
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2020-02-27T07:48:39Z verisimilitude: None of you would know, but I was the only one who bothered giving any feedback regarding that recent Common Lisp survey; the Reddit users were content to share stupid jokes and vapid praise.
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2020-02-27T07:48:52Z verisimilitude: Ironically, I can't participate in the survey, however, because it requires Google JavaScript.
2020-02-27T07:49:15Z no-defun-allowed: (The only reason I don't use it, is because my only large project for the last year has been a distributed object system, and I need to be sure that blame doesn't go where blame shouldn't go, namely that node operators don't get in trouble if their nodes download inappropriate content without knowing any better. Oh, and I was doing weirdo licenses before it was cool, even before the CNPL...)
2020-02-27T07:49:23Z verisimilitude: I told the fellow managing it that he should expect a fairly incestuous turnout, considering he only shared it here and Reddit.
2020-02-27T07:53:38Z jdz: verisimilitude: I learned about it from neither.
2020-02-27T07:54:09Z verisimilitude: I was going to share it with my group, but I can't advocate for it, due to these reasons.
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2020-02-27T07:54:24Z verisimilitude: Where'd you learn of it, jdz?
2020-02-27T07:54:37Z jdz: verisimilitude: Also, did you know about "private browsing mode"?
2020-02-27T07:54:58Z verisimilitude: What of it?
2020-02-27T07:55:23Z jdz: It seems to me you're spreading FUD about "Google JavaScript."
2020-02-27T07:55:28Z verisimilitude: I don't enable JavaScript at all, jdz; considering it's a basic form, there's no reason it should be needed.
2020-02-27T07:55:55Z verisimilitude: Requiring me to enable a megacorporation's JavaScript just to participate in a survey isn't much for community, in my eyes.
2020-02-27T07:56:25Z verisimilitude: I really didn't like that it was Google at all, but not even the radio buttons work without JavaScript; it's just a giant mass of <script>.
2020-02-27T07:56:49Z jdz: I agree with you that you may live your life keeping to your values, but you should not complain about other people having different opinion about them.
2020-02-27T07:57:04Z no-defun-allowed: Requiring JavaScript is a security feature /s
2020-02-27T07:57:15Z verisimilitude: I merely mean this consequently prevents the Common Lispers such as myself from participating, leading to what I deem the ``incestuous'' turnout.
2020-02-27T07:57:28Z jdz: Maybe the form is where it is now just to filter out your input?
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2020-02-27T07:57:38Z verisimilitude: The medium is the message; the setting of the survey determines who will respond.
2020-02-27T07:57:52Z verisimilitude: If you're going to be passive aggressive, be more clever, jdz.
2020-02-27T07:58:07Z jdz: Creating a survey is work.  How much work have you invested in this?
2020-02-27T07:58:28Z verisimilitude: I'm the only one who bothered to send the fellow an email about it, and contributed the idea for several questions he'd not thought of.
2020-02-27T07:58:40Z verisimilitude: Now, what did you invest in it, jdz?
2020-02-27T07:58:46Z jdz: I filled out the survey.
2020-02-27T07:59:00Z verisimilitude: How nice for you.
2020-02-27T07:59:05Z jdz: My dislike of Google JavaScript aside.
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2020-02-27T08:14:03Z jackdaniel: for discussions in this spirit I have only one response: "lubię placki" ;-)
2020-02-27T08:18:06Z beach: Pancakes?
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2020-02-27T08:19:39Z jackdaniel: literally "I like cakes", that's a humorous Polish equivalent of "whatever"
2020-02-27T08:19:48Z beach: Ah. :)
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2020-02-27T10:22:20Z aeth: My first reaction was "oh verisimilitude is back, isn't verisimilitude the one with the odd style?" and then I read the text and it's a style debate. Some things never change. :-)
2020-02-27T10:23:19Z aeth: I guess you can assume most Lispers are unlearning C and/or C++. For a while there there was a very good chance that people might've learned Java instead of C++, but thanks to Oracle's neglect after the Sun acquisition, C++ kind of made a comeback in teaching afaik.
2020-02-27T10:25:52Z aeth: JavaScript might actually be a "security feature" as in a "don't cheat the survey" feature. Obviously this assumes that it's the worst case, privacy-destroying JS, too, which is probably is. On the other hand, thanks to the recent Nevada Caucuses (last Saturday), we can now say that Google Forms were used for an election so...
2020-02-27T10:26:11Z aeth: maybe they need the security.
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2020-02-27T10:30:01Z aeth: As for USE, IMO you can (probably) safely use exactly one thing other than CL, assuming that it's very unlikely that a conflict will be introduced later on, especially if e.g. it's another one of your own libraries.
2020-02-27T10:31:24Z no-defun-allowed: To be fair, I was able to repeatedly send a HTTP request to resend my response many times a couple of years ago with Google Forms.
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2020-02-27T10:32:53Z aeth: But I I'm guessing the USE stuff is in response to https://old.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/f98d1h/modern_functional_common_lisp_myths_and_best/fipyf7u/
2020-02-27T10:33:06Z aeth: s/But I /
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2020-02-27T11:19:19Z phoe: aeth: using exactly one thing other than CL won't be a big issue as long as you are sure to *not* define stuff on the symbols that are used from that package
2020-02-27T11:19:51Z phoe: and by USEing a package, you allow it to define which symbols of the using package belong to the used package.
2020-02-27T11:20:24Z phoe: that's a nontrivial responsibility that you delegate outside, yanno
2020-02-27T11:22:47Z aeth: if you delegate it outside, e.g. USE is perfectly fine for other internal packages
2020-02-27T11:23:01Z aeth: (and if you use a monorepo, everything's internal!)
2020-02-27T11:23:50Z phoe: or that, yes
2020-02-27T11:24:06Z phoe: was thinking of e.g. :use :alexandria which is a fully external and independent package
2020-02-27T11:24:20Z jmercouris: still thinking about that article ambrevar posted?
2020-02-27T11:24:31Z aeth: :use :alexandria is problematic because not enough people do that, so it's really easy to get conflicts, so I'm surprised so many people say it's used so often
2020-02-27T11:25:01Z aeth: alexandria uses some ultra-generic names where it's likely some other library also tries to solve the same thing
2020-02-27T11:25:21Z aeth: e.g. alexandria and uiop conflict
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2020-02-27T11:26:47Z aeth: Although I suppose the issue is when new conflicts are introduced, since known ones can be worked around.
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2020-02-27T12:16:54Z jmercouris: hello everyone, I'm trying to extend cl-webkit bindings http://dpaste.com/2YJ30D6
2020-02-27T12:17:21Z jmercouris: I'll post the code in a moment
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2020-02-27T12:19:36Z LdBeth: Hello
2020-02-27T12:20:33Z jmercouris: hello
2020-02-27T12:21:05Z jmercouris: OK so here is the code: http://dpaste.com/3N7SMGX
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2020-02-27T12:21:30Z jmercouris: as you can see I am trying to add a single slot titled navigation-action of type WebKitNavigationAction
2020-02-27T12:22:42Z jmercouris: however I get: Unknown GBoxed type 'WebKitNavigationAction'
2020-02-27T12:22:53Z jmercouris: but it IS defined
2020-02-27T12:23:04Z jmercouris: in webkit2.navigation-action.lisp
2020-02-27T12:23:25Z jmercouris: You can see the version I've made on this branch: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webkit/tree/navigation-action
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2020-02-27T12:23:52Z jmercouris: these are the changes I've made: https://github.com/atlas-engineer/cl-webkit/commit/94cfbd961e53eafcac18b0a8b667bd933be9ab72
2020-02-27T12:25:03Z jmercouris: anyone any ideas?
2020-02-27T12:27:37Z shka_: phoe: i advise to just import individual symbols that you happen to need
2020-02-27T12:27:38Z LdBeth: Seems it doesn’t find that symbol in foreign library
2020-02-27T12:27:49Z jmercouris: LdBeth: how do you reckon that?
2020-02-27T12:28:15Z jmercouris: I'm running WebKitGTK 2.27
2020-02-27T12:28:42Z jmercouris: according to here: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/stable/WebKitNavigationPolicyDecision.html#webkit-navigation-policy-decision-get-navigation-action
2020-02-27T12:28:47Z jmercouris: it should be present in my release
2020-02-27T12:28:53Z jmercouris: "Since 2.6"
2020-02-27T12:29:05Z jmercouris: wait, 2.6, not 2.26
2020-02-27T12:29:32Z jmercouris: no wait
2020-02-27T12:29:33Z jmercouris: I take that back
2020-02-27T12:29:42Z jmercouris: https://webkitgtk.org shows latest release to be 2.27
2020-02-27T12:29:44Z jmercouris: so I am up to date
2020-02-27T12:32:17Z jmercouris: _death: here is your chance to claim the account death
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2020-02-27T12:52:14Z LdBeth: jmercouris: "Unknown GBoxed type" is signaled when type name can't be found in gobject::*g-type-name->g-boxed-foreign-info*
2020-02-27T12:52:37Z LdBeth: jmercouris: what is `define-g-object-class*' then?
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2020-02-27T12:53:16Z LdBeth: https://github.com/dmitryvk/cl-gtk2/blob/a3108fbc701dbab93b899e04b9637ded2f813410/glib/gobject.boxed.lisp#L117
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2020-02-27T12:54:14Z LdBeth: it could be that macro expansion caused the setf hasn't been properly executed
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2020-02-27T13:13:10Z jmercouris: hm, could be indeed
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2020-02-27T14:30:06Z jmercouris: how to take a int and get the modifier state from it? in cl-cffi-gtk?
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2020-02-27T14:30:17Z jmercouris: I see ash and I see gdk.event-structures.lisp but no idea how ot use
2020-02-27T14:30:19Z jmercouris: s/ot/to
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2020-02-27T16:07:35Z jmercouris: is it saying here: https://webkitgtk.org/reference/webkit2gtk/unstable/WebKitNetworkProxySettings.html
2020-02-27T16:07:38Z jmercouris: that it wants an ARRAY of strings basically?
2020-02-27T16:07:46Z jmercouris: for the function webkit_network_proxy_settings_new
2020-02-27T16:07:55Z jmercouris: if so, how would I create that in CFFI world?
2020-02-27T16:09:46Z Bike: for ignore_hosts, you mean?
2020-02-27T16:10:10Z jmercouris: Bike: yes
2020-02-27T16:10:57Z Bike: Looks like an array of strings, yes. So you allocate your strings however, and then you allocate an array of char* pointers to them.
2020-02-27T16:11:48Z jmercouris: I don't know much about this, so let me make sure i understand what to do
2020-02-27T16:12:00Z jmercouris: I need an array of character pointers which are actually pointing to the first character in each string
2020-02-27T16:12:07Z jmercouris: because in C strings are just character arrays?
2020-02-27T16:12:27Z Bike: well, yes. you didn't know that?
2020-02-27T16:12:35Z dlowe: with a NUL character at the end
2020-02-27T16:12:39Z jmercouris: I did, do you think that was purely a guess?
2020-02-27T16:12:51Z jmercouris: I just want to make sure that I am remembering correctly
2020-02-27T16:12:54Z dlowe: not to be confused with a NULL character
2020-02-27T16:12:58Z Bike: Just wondering what's with the question mark. And yeah, null terminated, and also you need to null terminate the array itself.
2020-02-27T16:13:09Z Bike: If I'm reading this doc correctly, anyway
2020-02-27T16:13:16Z jmercouris: OK, I'll give it a go then
2020-02-27T16:13:17Z jmercouris: thank you
2020-02-27T16:15:01Z Bike: So if you have n strings, you do like (with-foreign-object (array :pointer (1+ n)) ...), where ... setfs a bunch of mem-arefs
2020-02-27T16:15:04Z Bike: i think
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2020-02-27T16:15:24Z jmercouris: I wonder if there is a function for this
2020-02-27T16:15:31Z jmercouris: It seems like it would be a common enough operation
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2020-02-27T16:18:35Z jmercouris: there seems to be something here: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html
2020-02-27T16:18:49Z jmercouris: search for the string " Allocate a null-terminated array of strings"
2020-02-27T16:18:52Z jmercouris: and you'll see what I have found
2020-02-27T16:19:20Z jmercouris: will that simply workk?
2020-02-27T16:19:47Z jmercouris: (foreign-alloc :string :initial-contents '("lol" "hello") :null-terminated t)?
2020-02-27T16:20:26Z Bike: Seems like it. Will be heap allocated tho.
2020-02-27T16:20:44Z jmercouris: I see
2020-02-27T16:20:48Z jmercouris: why might that be a problem?
2020-02-27T16:20:56Z jmercouris: must it be on the stack?
2020-02-27T16:21:06Z Bike: Well, you'll have to free it manually
2020-02-27T16:21:15Z jmercouris: hm, I wonder *when* I would do that
2020-02-27T16:21:18Z Bike: but otherwise no, it's just an efficiency concern
2020-02-27T16:21:27Z Bike: that's up to the function you're calling
2020-02-27T16:21:34Z Bike: which doesn't seem to mention it, so, good luck
2020-02-27T16:21:39Z jmercouris: :-)
2020-02-27T16:22:01Z jmercouris: I'll try some things, worst case a little memory leak never killed anyone :-P
2020-02-27T16:22:10Z jmercouris: this function is ran literally once or twice at moast
2020-02-27T16:22:11Z jmercouris: most*
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2020-02-27T16:23:04Z Bike: since the other functions in here seem to allocate memory themselves, what i would guess is that it allocates its proxy settings object, and then copies in your ignore_hosts. so you can delete the ignore_hosts immediately. but that's a guess
2020-02-27T16:23:22Z jmercouris: I'll give it a try
2020-02-27T16:23:27Z jmercouris: if I get a fun sigabrt I'll know
2020-02-27T16:24:45Z dlowe: I wonder if there's some way to override malloc() in our lisp image so that it uses the lisp allocator instead.
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2020-02-27T16:26:57Z Bike: If you want it garbage collected there are more complications
2020-02-27T16:27:05Z Bike: and if you don't, you might as well use malloc
2020-02-27T16:29:04Z phoe: in theory, you could allocate an ub8 vector, and then pin it and use its data-pointer when necessary
2020-02-27T16:29:29Z phoe: that's not covering everything though, you still need some way of keeping track of it when it isn't pinned and used
2020-02-27T16:30:09Z phoe: and just allocating in dynamic space runs into trouble with tags and such
2020-02-27T16:30:16Z pjb: This is a C data structure, therefore allocate it as a C data structure!
2020-02-27T16:30:24Z Bike: I mean think of the performance characteristics here. C programs allocate memory in different ways than lisp ones, and malloc is optimized for C ways
2020-02-27T16:30:41Z pjb: If foreign-alloc is specified to do it, then you can use it.  But otherwise, allocate and fill the foreign stuff yourself.
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2020-02-27T19:42:37Z didi: So, if I wanted to write PUSH, I would need to use `define-setf-method', righ?
2020-02-27T19:43:11Z verisimilitude: I think of Ada, and how you can use Ada types, but with a C convention, so that they're still completely under the control of the Ada side of things.  Poor programming practices have killed people, and so even a small memory leak is principally unacceptable.  This has me think about how I disagree with some of the design decisions made in other portability libraries, and it has me remark on how designing a library as a collected subset
2020-02-27T19:43:11Z verisimilitude: of nonstandard functionality will likely result in something suboptimal, compared to how the ANSI would've been able to design it.
2020-02-27T19:43:46Z Bike: didi: no such operator. PUSH is probably just defined with defmacro (using get-setf-expansion, though)
2020-02-27T19:44:04Z didi: Bike: Interesting. Thank you.
2020-02-27T19:44:27Z didi: verisimilitude: You reminded me of the rocket that leaked memory.
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2020-02-27T19:45:19Z didi: New version of the question: what about (setf (getf ...))?
2020-02-27T19:45:24Z phoe: verisimilitude: ANSI would not and will not be able to design anything better. Would not, given their time and money constraints; will not, because no one has enough money to revise the CL standard.
2020-02-27T19:45:42Z Bike: didi: What exactly are you asking? When you can use a setf function versus having to use the macro mechanism?
2020-02-27T19:46:01Z phoe: didi: seems like defmacro with get-setf-expansion. One cannot have a #'(setf getf) function because functions cannot modify variable bindings.
2020-02-27T19:46:36Z didi: Bike: I am playing with SETF. Now I'm playing with writing a way to setf a value of an alist.
2020-02-27T19:46:50Z didi: phoe: Thank you.
2020-02-27T19:47:59Z Bike: alexandria has something for that. probably kind of hard to follow the macrology, unfortunately https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/lists.lisp#L29-L71
2020-02-27T19:48:07Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
2020-02-27T19:48:34Z verisimilitude: The basic point is that portability libraries tend to be suboptimal, when considering their purpose, phoe.
2020-02-27T19:48:52Z verisimilitude: I've written a very simple one and even that isn't the ideal version of the interface I'd want.
2020-02-27T19:48:55Z phoe: Bike: non-trivial, but one could macrostep these define-alist-get- forms to get a more sensible expansion.
2020-02-27T19:49:47Z phoe: verisimilitude: I am aware, and yes, they tend to be suboptimal. They are usually "good enough" for contemporary purposes though, since most people do not want to optimize every single thing possible and instead move to other endeavours.
2020-02-27T19:49:51Z didi: Uh, OK, it's harder than I expected.
2020-02-27T19:50:02Z phoe: My cl-lzma bindings to the C LZMA library are no exception.
2020-02-27T19:50:07Z phoe: didi: inorite
2020-02-27T19:50:13Z didi: phoe: rite
2020-02-27T19:51:33Z verisimilitude: Taking a quick look at what LZMA is to refresh myself, there's no reason it shouldn't be written in Common Lisp, in my eyes, phoe.  I've only taken a brief glance, however, so is there a reason beyond it already being implemented in C?
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2020-02-27T19:52:16Z verisimilitude: When I wrote of portability libraries, I more meant USOCKET and BORDEAUX-THREADS than simple C bindings.
2020-02-27T19:52:26Z Bike: didi: If you make the define-alist-get macro global and then macroexpand the (define-alist-get assoc-value ...) form it should be easier to understand.
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2020-02-27T19:52:52Z phoe: verisimilitude: I did not care enough about the project to actually reimplement all of the compressor and decompressor in CL. I prefered to reuse existing and tested code.
2020-02-27T19:52:56Z didi: Bike: Thanks.
2020-02-27T19:53:38Z verisimilitude: Alright; that's what I figured, phoe.
2020-02-27T19:53:56Z phoe: verisimilitude: I see.
2020-02-27T19:56:02Z verisimilitude: It reminds me of my ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL and Ncurses.
2020-02-27T19:56:33Z verisimilitude: Ncurses is a poor design that goes beyond being a foreign library, though.
2020-02-27T19:57:59Z phoe: I think I've said everything I have on that matter in the reddit comments related to your blogpost on that. Don't have anything new to add.
2020-02-27T19:59:12Z verisimilitude: Which username on Reddit is yours?
2020-02-27T20:00:05Z verisimilitude: Are you flaming_bird?
2020-02-27T20:01:56Z verisimilitude: I ask because I understand you'd either be flaming_bird or _priyadarshan, if I'm looking at the correct discussion; it's not much discussion, though, since two of the three messages are bemoaning the license.
2020-02-27T20:02:18Z verisimilitude: Or, rather, two of those three involve that and not the actual library.
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2020-02-27T20:13:07Z phoe: flaming_bird there
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2020-02-27T20:13:42Z verisimilitude: Alright; you may find it amusing seeing your recent advice about :USE had me come here to start with.
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2020-02-27T20:40:42Z jackdaniel: I was going to find some nice relevant quote  directed at  Shinpachi from Ginatama but I've failed
2020-02-27T20:41:16Z pjb: Perhaps wrong channel?
2020-02-27T20:41:58Z jackdaniel: hm, perhaps
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2020-02-27T20:48:41Z pfdietz: I will not be going to ELS this year, unfortunately.   Last year it was a court appearance, this year a global pandemic.   I fear next year will involve vacuum decay.
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2020-02-27T20:54:10Z Bike: with vacuum decay there will be no time to worry, so it's fine
2020-02-27T20:56:21Z didi: It might be happening right now.
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2020-02-27T21:04:21Z asarch: When the (with-open-file ...) scope ends, does it automatically close the stream or should I do manually?
2020-02-27T21:04:39Z didi: asarch: It closes it.
2020-02-27T21:04:42Z jackdaniel: it does close the stream, even if you have error inside the body
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2020-02-27T21:06:20Z jackdaniel: as of corona virus, I've read into it and it seems that it is "just" a nasty flu with higher risk of pneumonia; still very bad but it seems much better than how media has pictured it
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2020-02-27T21:06:49Z phoe: asarch: WITH-* macros are a Lisp idiom that allocate some closeable resource, allow you to use it in the dynamic scope of the macro, and then automatically close it whenever control leaves that macro.
2020-02-27T21:06:52Z jackdaniel: (of course it is not a flu; it is just similar)
2020-02-27T21:06:57Z didi: Ufs, `define-setf-expander' is hard.
2020-02-27T21:07:49Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-02-27T21:08:32Z asarch: Do you want to know a secret? The Corona virus doesn't even exist :-P
2020-02-27T21:08:52Z phoe: didi: it is. You might want to see https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/8dbb240fc688bc9a28865eb1629f8dbc84ca71b4/Code/Setf-expanders/setf-expanders.lisp for some references on how to use it in trivial cases, and https://github.com/phoe/phoe-toolbox/blob/master/phoe-toolbox.lisp#L538 for two macros that use get-setf-expansion
2020-02-27T21:09:08Z didi: asarch: Now it's not a secret no more. You ruined it.
2020-02-27T21:09:19Z asarch: It's all about business. Money, money, money
2020-02-27T21:09:20Z didi: phoe: Thank you.
2020-02-27T21:09:34Z asarch: Das Geld
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2020-02-27T21:10:07Z didi: asarch: What's the shape of Earth?
2020-02-27T21:10:29Z asarch: Flat (as always was)
2020-02-27T21:10:36Z phoe gently nudges the coronavirus discussion towards #lispcafe
2020-02-27T21:10:51Z didi nods
2020-02-27T21:11:06Z asarch takes notes...
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2020-02-27T21:13:26Z asarch: Why CL REPL does show a dialog when it (read)?
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2020-02-27T21:18:12Z phoe: asarch: which REPL? which CL?
2020-02-27T21:18:40Z jackdaniel: what dialog
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2020-02-27T21:19:36Z pjb: asarch: because the REPL is not standardized, it can do whatever it wants to get input from the user.
2020-02-27T21:19:42Z z147: who's here? why are you looking at me with your eyes? short answer: try clisp or read the sbcl manual
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2020-02-27T21:20:47Z asarch: This REPL: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.eql5.android.repl
2020-02-27T21:20:53Z asarch: Thank you pjb
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2020-02-27T21:22:58Z pjb: asarch: it looks to me quite reasonable to get a dialog when calling (read) on a system with a GUI…
2020-02-27T21:23:07Z phoe: ooh, the android REPL
2020-02-27T21:23:08Z pjb: asarch: what's your complaint?
2020-02-27T21:23:20Z phoe: TIL it does this
2020-02-27T21:25:13Z pjb: *query-io* is also like this.  Don't be surprised if your system reads the prompt aloud when you (progn (format *query-io* "Please enter your age: ") (force-output *query-io*) (read *query-io*)) and it expects you to tell an integer to the speech recognizer…
2020-02-27T21:25:20Z pjb: Or something.
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2020-02-27T21:33:41Z z147: btw, there's several solutions for quit across implementations, is there something similar for read?
2020-02-27T21:35:17Z jackdaniel: C-d usually means eof, you could handle a condition resulting from that
2020-02-27T21:35:53Z phoe: z147: what do you mean, for read?
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2020-02-27T21:35:56Z phoe: CL:READ is standardized
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2020-02-27T21:39:18Z z147: With sbcl, prompting for user input, I had to  finish-output nil, which was not needed in clisp
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2020-02-27T21:39:45Z pjb: z147: You have to finish-output always, when you want the output to be sent away!
2020-02-27T21:39:55Z pjb: z147: this is basic I/O.
2020-02-27T21:40:08Z phoe: ^
2020-02-27T21:40:15Z pjb: z147: the problem you may have, is that you learned programming with some language that hides that fact.
2020-02-27T21:40:18Z phoe: an implementation may but is not required to finish-output for you
2020-02-27T21:40:29Z z147: Ah, I see
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2020-02-27T21:40:35Z z147: thanks
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2020-02-27T21:41:03Z phoe: writing to a stream does not necessarily mean that stuff gets sent away, e.g. if output is buffered
2020-02-27T21:41:11Z pjb: z147: note that when buffer are flushed for you, you may get very inefficient I/O.
2020-02-27T21:41:29Z phoe: you need to explicitly tell Lisp when you want it to send away whatever is buffered.
2020-02-27T21:41:46Z pjb: z147: you definitely want to control that, so that your batch programs can be as I/O-efficient as possible, and your interactive programs can be as responsive as possible.
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2020-02-27T21:43:58Z z147: I'll try to come up with some benchmarks to experiment with, thanks!
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2020-02-27T22:15:10Z didi: I think I'm getting the hang of `define-setf-expansion'. Expanding the setf form helps, but this thing is brutal.
2020-02-27T22:16:35Z aeth: Hmm... Reading a stream character by character and matching on the first, longest match unreading at the first point at which the match stops is... well, it's a very brutal macro, but I'm almost there with an unoptimized form and without 0+/1+/ranges/booleans for character matches.
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2020-02-27T22:17:19Z aeth: Once it's complete, though, I get a parser for everything I've wanted to parse via a stream...
2020-02-27T22:18:07Z aeth: The full version should also be a possible compilation target for EBNF.
2020-02-27T22:18:25Z aeth: I think nested cases is more powerful than EBNF, though.
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2020-02-27T22:32:33Z p_l: z147: CLISP installs a more complex REPL handler, whereas SBCL goes for minimum. And read and write use separate streams in unix without special handling
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2020-02-27T22:34:05Z z147: If i understand the above correctly, finishing output when appropriate should resolve this
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2020-02-27T23:27:43Z pjb: z147: take for example, punched cards. To punch a card, or to read it, it's a mechanical process.  Then it's faster to punch 12 rows of 80 columns at a time rather than to punch 80 colums of 12 rows at a time.  Ie. while the data is encoded column by column, mechanically it's way faster to process it row by row (since there are fewer rows than columns).
2020-02-27T23:28:07Z pjb: z147: therefore a fast card puncher will have to buffer the whole card (80 characters), and will punch them all at once.
2020-02-27T23:28:27Z pjb: z147: it's similar for line printers. Fast line printers will print a whole line (132 characters) at a time.
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2020-02-27T23:29:48Z White_Flame: aeth: with only a single character buffer for unread, it's the only way to attempt to only read what's necessary, in case something else is going to read the stream next
2020-02-27T23:30:00Z White_Flame: (well, without extending your own streams with additional buffers I guess)
2020-02-27T23:30:26Z aeth: White_Flame: I'm not sure what you mean
2020-02-27T23:31:06Z White_Flame: if you read-line, for instance, and search the array for the first non-included char from that buffer, you can't unread the buffer back into the stream
2020-02-27T23:31:18Z aeth: ah
2020-02-27T23:31:28Z pjb: z147: and then, there are the magnetic tapes.  The magnetic tape drive, again being a mechanical device, will have to start and stop moving the tape between each block.  While you can write 80-character records or 133 character records each in a block on a tape, this is very inefficient, given that the inter-block space (and time) is on the order of the size of a 64 kbyte block.
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2020-02-27T23:31:52Z aeth: White_Flame: See, a lot of the time I've just done a read-line because it's a parse-it-or-fail sort of thing. But this can also be used for those old read-line-based approaches
2020-02-27T23:32:10Z aeth: Messier than those require, but since the macro is written, might as well abstract away the reads and reduce consing, too
2020-02-27T23:32:17Z White_Flame: my lexer/parser stuff can swap out rules and pass off to other readtables in the middle, so I have to be careful not to read too much
2020-02-27T23:32:38Z pjb: z147: therefore it's more efficient to store (truncate 65536 80) --> 819 punched card per block or (truncate 65536 133) --> 492 line printer lines per block, on the tape.
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2020-02-27T23:33:16Z aeth: White_Flame: This is going to replace my Brainfuck parser, my Scheme reader function, my UCI chess engine protocol reader, my calculator, and a bunch of other things... since it's general purpose enough. Probably even e.g. parse JSON
2020-02-27T23:33:35Z ealfonso: is there an loop "else if"?
2020-02-27T23:35:03Z White_Flame: there's ELSE and IF, does that not suffice?
2020-02-27T23:35:05Z aeth: ealfonso: Yes. I think it's just "else if" Make sure that you actually need it (e.g. doing :collect, :sum, etc. conditionally), though because otherwise a COND is way clearer.
2020-02-27T23:35:08Z pjb: z147: when you use hard disk drives, the important size is the cylinder, since what is slow in this mechanical device, is to move the head from on cylinder to another.  In any case, the operating system will use block sizes of at least 4 KB.  So when you write files, if you force output of smaller buffers, the OS will have to read the disk (the whole cylinder), modify your little buffer, and write back at least the block-size, if 
2020-02-27T23:35:08Z pjb: the whole cyliner.
2020-02-27T23:35:21Z z147: pjb, what would be the effective "block"  for reading user input or text from file, say SSD?
2020-02-27T23:35:39Z pjb: z147: again, it would be much more efficient in that case NOT to call force-output, and wait the closing of the file to flush the buffers.
2020-02-27T23:35:43Z White_Flame: aeth: and yeah, mine's fully general purpose as well, with the intent to have other languages inline with each other
2020-02-27T23:36:27Z pjb: z147: now, in the case of the ssd, it's a little different, because there are no mechanical parts. However, there's still wear, based on a block-size (which depends on the SSD, I would guess it's on the order of the KB still).
2020-02-27T23:36:40Z aeth: White_Flame: Well that just trivially follows from using streams (and thus the potential of using reader macros), even though I personally won't be doing that...
2020-02-27T23:36:55Z aeth: Any (CL-style) reader written in CL can be a reader macro!
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2020-02-27T23:37:23Z White_Flame: lack of unread makes it a ton harder, though
2020-02-27T23:37:28Z pjb: z147: when reading or writing from files, given the current diffenrential between memory speed and storage speed, use the biggest buffer you can (and given the size of RAM we currently have, this means, the maximum file size you can process, usually).
2020-02-27T23:37:31Z White_Flame: with backtracking options
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2020-02-27T23:38:03Z pjb: z147: for user input, it's different. Here the question is that of interactivity and responsivity of your program.  It depends on the expectation of the user.
2020-02-27T23:38:38Z pjb: z147: in general, the user wants to give a command line-by-line.  Therefore the buffer size will have to be the maximum line length you can take.
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2020-02-27T23:39:17Z pjb: z147: as for the output, you can use force-output for intermediate output (eg. progress logs), and finish-output before expecting input.
2020-02-27T23:39:43Z pjb: note the difference: force-output is asynchronous, while finish-output is synchronous and waits for the output to be finished before the program can continue.
2020-02-27T23:39:46Z z147: I just ran ulimit on my box and it replied "unlimited". Spicious
2020-02-27T23:40:38Z pjb: z147: there's also the case of socket, for network protocols. You need to force-output to ensure the packets are sent.
2020-02-27T23:41:20Z z147: Thank You for the clarification, pjb , the hyperspec is not verbose on the basics
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2020-02-27T23:43:44Z aeth: White_Flame: the lack of unread when called via a reader macro?
2020-02-27T23:43:58Z White_Flame: yep
2020-02-27T23:44:15Z aeth: ah, okay, nevermind then
2020-02-27T23:44:55Z aeth: I guess it's not trivial and you have to create a buffer stream
2020-02-27T23:45:50Z aeth: Then you only have to worry about the last char being potentially already read, and otherwise can use your old algo
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2020-02-28T00:15:03Z aeth: White_Flame: Now I have this output: https://gitlab.com/snippets/1945726
2020-02-28T00:15:33Z aeth: From this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/-/blob/dcf43d11a161b3cf6141dc01aec7a21072c3afc6/util/util.lisp#L541
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2020-02-28T00:16:31Z aeth: Essentially, "foo" is like a regex on "^foo" with no support for repetition (0+, 1+) or sets or ranges or negation yet.
2020-02-28T00:16:32Z White_Flame: I decided to take a quick whack at JSON, as you mentioned it
2020-02-28T00:16:41Z White_Flame: this is the full lexer/parser, need to remember how to launch it to test: https://pastebin.com/WM4cfZGv
2020-02-28T00:17:12Z White_Flame: my goal is to make an actual, proper DSL for programming languages
2020-02-28T00:17:24Z aeth: yeah, JSON is not much at all so... I really could just do a JSON next just because
2020-02-28T00:17:26Z White_Flame: no stupid regex games to hack in features
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2020-02-28T00:17:54Z White_Flame: note the lexer breaks the string into punctuation, whitespace, and tokens
2020-02-28T00:18:08Z aeth: My approach isn't really declarative like yours.
2020-02-28T00:18:11Z White_Flame: and the string-contents are a separate lexer language, with backspace stuff being punctuation within it
2020-02-28T00:18:22Z White_Flame: *backslash
2020-02-28T00:19:03Z White_Flame: in the parser, the :separator is well know, so you don't have to monkey with commas between items manually
2020-02-28T00:19:36Z White_Flame: I have an inexplicably great loathing for current lexer/parser tech
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2020-02-28T00:20:10Z White_Flame: and so when it came to actually needing other language syntax from the lisp reader, I did not abide such things existing here
2020-02-28T00:20:41Z White_Flame: hate is a wonderful motivator for productivity ;)
2020-02-28T00:21:00Z White_Flame: Necessity is the mother of invention
2020-02-28T00:21:11Z White_Flame: Laziness is the father of invention
2020-02-28T00:21:26Z White_Flame: Being pissed off at the status quo is the crazy uncle of invention
2020-02-28T00:22:01Z aeth: White_Flame: I guess I'm not being purist here because technically the parser should read "foo" or "42" as tokens and the lexer should handle them, but... I'm almost certainly going to special case numbers to avoid allocating strings for numbers when I don't need to
2020-02-28T00:22:19Z aeth: (at least iirc, proglang theory was a long time ago for me)
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2020-02-28T00:22:27Z aeth: (and Lispers ignore parsers)
2020-02-28T00:24:09Z White_Flame: yeah, when I model a new way of working, I tend to add features regardless of cost.  The benefit of new ways of working and new enablement outweighs any speed penalty
2020-02-28T00:24:28Z White_Flame: (within feasibility of course)
2020-02-28T00:27:07Z z147: My dream parser would be for educational purposes, parse a program, explain it in layman terms, or translate into visceral interpretation a la Bret Victor
2020-02-28T00:27:07Z White_Flame: oh, another really handy thing that I didn't get in that JSON pass is that even though you can tell the parser to ignore whitespace so it doesn't clutter up your rules, you can manually inject "no-ws" or require "ws" when needed
2020-02-28T00:27:38Z White_Flame: which I'm putting around the colons in the json object spec
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2020-02-28T02:57:54Z verisimilitude: I empathize with your viewpoint regarding innovation and whatnot, White_Flame.
2020-02-28T03:00:48Z White_Flame: which one?
2020-02-28T03:08:33Z verisimilitude: The crazy uncle is the most noteworthy.
2020-02-28T03:08:55Z verisimilitude: The value of hatred is also understated in modern society.
2020-02-28T03:10:08Z verisimilitude: I tried to write an efficient JSON library, as I was parsing hundreds of thousands of records, but it was too bothersome and my simple string manipulation which makes valid assumptions about the form of the JSON I'm parsing reigns.
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2020-02-28T03:10:12Z White_Flame: heh, it is also a route where this strongly applies: https://i.imgur.com/oRKPNXg.jpg
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2020-02-28T03:21:48Z verisimilitude: Douglas Crockford is rather vocal about how clever he is for disallowing comments, yet whitespace is permitted everywhere.
2020-02-28T03:22:50Z verisimilitude: You're the second person here who's linked me to an image to raise a point; what's wrong with words, I think.
2020-02-28T03:23:11Z White_Flame: it paints a good visual example of what the words say
2020-02-28T03:23:44Z White_Flame: one that was very funny and memorable when I first saw it many years ago, which is always something related to the "crazy uncle" approaches
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2020-02-28T03:47:20Z aeth: If you disallow comments, but permt whitespace everywhere, then you allow comments, just encoded as whitespace.
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2020-02-28T04:05:52Z ajithmk:                                                                                     
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2020-02-28T04:11:05Z Oladon: heh
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2020-02-28T04:30:29Z pjb: aeth: you should allow ONE whitespace only where it's required, ie. as token terminator when the next token is not a separator.
2020-02-28T04:31:03Z pjb: (defun foo (a b) (+ a b)) has too many whitespaces. It should be: (defun foo(a b)(+ a b))
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2020-02-28T05:19:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-28T07:25:55Z flip214: pjb: how about using unicode zero-width whitespace? That's even more dense!
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2020-02-28T08:25:54Z elderK: Hey guys. I'm still confused as to how I should handle kind of cyclic dependencies. I'm working on a set of interpreters from the LISP book. So, my continuation objects, for instance, have a resume generic that invokes an evaluate generic.
2020-02-28T08:26:05Z elderK: Or to be put differently, generics with methods specialized for the proper types.
2020-02-28T08:26:14Z elderK: I initially thought I could just have an interfaces package that you know, defined the generics.
2020-02-28T08:26:30Z elderK: But then that doesn't wind up perfect either as I need to create instances of say, particular continuations and stuff.
2020-02-28T08:26:38Z elderK: I might commit something later, so you can see, and maybe offer insight :)
2020-02-28T08:26:43Z elderK: Happy Friday, also.
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2020-02-28T08:44:29Z shka_: elderK: ok, so your problem is that you don't have generic function for constructing continuations
2020-02-28T08:44:38Z shka_: that's what i am getting of it
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2020-02-28T08:45:23Z shka_: however, make-instance could act this way
2020-02-28T08:45:53Z elderK: shka_: Good point.
2020-02-28T08:45:58Z elderK: I have named functions for creating them.
2020-02-28T08:46:05Z elderK: Like, make-zug-continuation ...
2020-02-28T08:46:09Z shka_: or you can add defgeneric make-continuation
2020-02-28T08:46:36Z shka_: ok, gotcha
2020-02-28T08:46:59Z elderK: I mean, that's a personal choice. I just got sick of writing :whatever thing all the time :)
2020-02-28T08:47:25Z shka_: remember that you can specialize with eql 'symbol as well
2020-02-28T08:47:51Z shka_: yup, i see this, however, it is just not generic
2020-02-28T08:48:17Z elderK: Aye. So, what's the equivalent of a forward declaration / prototype in CL? Is it even needed?
2020-02-28T08:48:22Z shka_: you can have both generic constructor function and plain function
2020-02-28T08:48:58Z elderK: Is it common to use make-instance directly?
2020-02-28T08:49:32Z shka_: it is not needed, sometimes you can declaim ftype to avoid style-warnings but that's it
2020-02-28T08:49:45Z shka_: as for make-instance: it is pretty common
2020-02-28T08:50:39Z shka_: good way to structure common lisp OO programs is to divide it into layers
2020-02-28T08:51:15Z shka_: so you may have your generic protocol layer and more user friendly API layer constructed on top of it
2020-02-28T08:52:06Z shka_: this approach worked very much in my favor so far!
2020-02-28T08:54:06Z shka_: right now i do it the following way: First I name my module, for instance continuations. This module will contain user friendly API. continuations.meta module will contain the low level protocol
2020-02-28T08:54:40Z beach: elderK: Yes, it is common to use MAKE-INSTANCE directly.
2020-02-28T08:55:02Z shka_: elderK: i start to feel like i am rambling at this point ;-), you get the idea though, right?
2020-02-28T08:55:12Z elderK: shka_: I'm interested :)
2020-02-28T08:55:15Z elderK: beach: Thanks :)
2020-02-28T08:55:25Z beach: elderK: You don't need anything like forward declarations if you use generic functions.  The DEFGENERIC form plays the role of a declaration.
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2020-02-28T08:56:45Z beach: elderK: A CLOS protocol (generalization of interface) consists of generic functions, classes, and initargs.
2020-02-28T08:57:19Z beach: elderK: You might have a look at the CLIM II specification for how that works.  I learned object-oriented programming in Common Lisp from the CLIM II specification.
2020-02-28T08:57:42Z shka_: elderK: ok, so my approach is to define API with dictionary of terms constructed by the PROTOCOL. Protocol should be minimal and complete set of lisp stuff, API should be easy to understand and use.
2020-02-28T08:58:02Z shka_: and beach will explain everything else better then i would ever could
2020-02-28T08:58:53Z elderK: An example I have: I have a class, activation-frame.
2020-02-28T08:59:10Z elderK: But I have several specializations of that class. One for holding continuations for block forms, one for holding slots for local variable bindings.
2020-02-28T08:59:31Z elderK: They are, for simplicity, chained.
2020-02-28T08:59:47Z elderK: So I have functions to retrieve the continuation associated in some frame, at some offset from the current frame.
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2020-02-28T09:00:09Z elderK: Would the function / generic that performs that lookup, be defined in the file that defines the block specialization of an activation frame?
2020-02-28T09:00:18Z elderK: Or would it be a generic, defined in the file that defines the activatio-frame class
2020-02-28T09:00:21Z elderK: ?
2020-02-28T09:00:37Z elderK: Since, it is meant to be callable on any kind of frame. Since, it is performing a search of sorts.
2020-02-28T09:00:44Z beach: elderK: I put my DEFGENERIC forms in a separate file.
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2020-02-28T09:00:54Z beach: More important is what package you use.
2020-02-28T09:01:42Z beach: elderK: I create "modules" consisting of an ASDF system definition, a package definition, and a bunch of files with code in them.
2020-02-28T09:02:14Z beach: If possible, one such file contains the DEFGENERIC forms.
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2020-02-28T09:03:42Z elderK: beach: How would you deal with the situation where say, the continuation module depends on the expression module, which depends on the continuation module?
2020-02-28T09:04:01Z beach: You would not design modules that way.
2020-02-28T09:04:06Z elderK: Agreed.
2020-02-28T09:04:24Z elderK: This is, however, the way the code in the LISP book is structured, unfortunately. Although, it doesn't use CL nor namespaces.
2020-02-28T09:04:33Z beach: Then they would probably be in the same module.
2020-02-28T09:04:53Z beach: What book is that?
2020-02-28T09:05:05Z elderK: Lisp in Small Pieces.
2020-02-28T09:05:28Z elderK: Everything is in a big file. I am trying to separate things out more, give it more structure for experimenting further.
2020-02-28T09:05:30Z beach: It uses Scheme everywhere as I recall.
2020-02-28T09:05:31Z elderK: That may be the problem :)
2020-02-28T09:05:34Z elderK: It does.
2020-02-28T09:05:43Z elderK: I prefer CL because of SlimV / SLIME :)
2020-02-28T09:05:54Z beach: You can separate things whatever way you like if you don't have several packages.
2020-02-28T09:07:42Z beach: elderK: Which chapter are you looking at?
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2020-02-28T09:09:17Z elderK: I'm trying to meld Chapter 3 with Chapter 6 :)
2020-02-28T09:09:28Z elderK: With some experimenting thrown in :)
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2020-02-28T10:36:47Z jmercouris: I have an interesting issue, when I launch my program from the terminal it does *not* crash, when I launch it from GUI, it crashes very easily, thoughts?
2020-02-28T10:37:08Z jmercouris: I can't imagine what it could be causing it, it is the EXACT same program
2020-02-28T10:38:16Z loke``: jmercouris: You might not have stdout opened when running from the GUI
2020-02-28T10:38:25Z loke``: try to start the program like so: foo </dev/null
2020-02-28T10:38:42Z loke``: (i meant stdin)
2020-02-28T10:39:01Z loke``: It may be that stdout is closed as well, but I'm not entirely sure how to simulate that from the shell
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2020-02-28T10:39:13Z jmercouris: loke``: OK
2020-02-28T10:40:08Z beach: jmercouris: Do you mean "crash" as in it signals an error?
2020-02-28T10:41:08Z jmercouris: maybe it does, I don't know
2020-02-28T10:41:18Z jmercouris: all I know is that the program exits and my window manager says "program had to be closed"
2020-02-28T10:41:42Z jmercouris: I'm thinking it may be an issue of permissions
2020-02-28T10:41:52Z jmercouris: different owners are responsible when launching from GUI vs Terminal?
2020-02-28T10:42:07Z jmercouris: and so it tries to read files that it cannot read, and then loses its mind, and crashes
2020-02-28T10:42:41Z jmercouris: loke``: launches and works just fine with foo </dev/null
2020-02-28T10:44:13Z loke``: jmercouris: owners? Why would that be different
2020-02-28T10:44:22Z jmercouris: I just figured, tested it, owners are the same
2020-02-28T10:44:28Z loke``: How do you actually "start from the gui"?
2020-02-28T10:44:38Z jmercouris: I open up spotlight, I type in "next" and hit RET
2020-02-28T10:44:45Z loke``: The owner of what, the executables file itself?
2020-02-28T10:44:53Z loke``: What is spotlight?
2020-02-28T10:44:58Z jmercouris: spotlight is like dmenu
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2020-02-28T10:45:06Z jmercouris: it is a macos launcher /search program
2020-02-28T10:45:06Z loke``: WHat is dmenu?
2020-02-28T10:45:17Z loke``: Oh, it's OSX. THen there are a _lot_ of things that are different
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2020-02-28T10:45:38Z jmercouris: anyways, Next writes some things, like a history.lisp file, etc
2020-02-28T10:45:50Z jmercouris: I figured maybe the GUI guy cant read from the Terminal guy because maybe they are differenet users/permissinos
2020-02-28T10:45:54Z jmercouris: anyways, they are the same
2020-02-28T10:46:45Z jmercouris: makes no sense to me this behavior, maybe I'll have to use Shinmera deploy and see all output streams to see if there is anything that may give me a hint
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2020-02-28T11:20:38Z verisimilitude: Since interactive debugging doesn't seem to be an option, just change the program to write as much relevant state as it can to a file as it can, with a top-level condition handler, jmercouris.
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2020-02-28T11:21:41Z verisimilitude: If it can't open any files, you could send such state some other way, I suppose.
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2020-02-28T11:33:59Z jmercouris: verisimilitude: that makes sense, yes
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2020-02-28T11:45:03Z jmercouris: is there a way in Emacs to refactor a class name?
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2020-02-28T11:50:40Z jmercouris: I take that as a no?
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2020-02-28T11:51:18Z loke``: In Lisp? I don't know of any refactoring tools in Emacs for Lisp.
2020-02-28T11:51:52Z jmercouris: I was afraid I would have to go on query replace adventure
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2020-02-28T12:12:57Z elderK: Goodnight all :)
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2020-02-28T12:17:48Z montaropdf: jmercouris: This could be of interest: https://github.com/Wilfred/emacs-refactor
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2020-02-28T12:19:38Z montaropdf: Can someone confirm that I am still connected to the channel?
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2020-02-28T12:26:04Z TMA: montaropdf: sorry, I cannot confirm at the moment
2020-02-28T12:27:03Z phoe: montaropdf: that'll cost you $50, think twice since there are no refunds
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2020-02-28T12:27:09Z montaropdf: I just reconnect, I was wondering why auto complete for nicknames wasn't working but I guess this is due to the fact the user have closed its connection to the channel
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2020-02-28T16:00:40Z katco: sometimes when debugging a program with sbcl + slime, a stack frame's local variable will be listed as `sb-debug::more`. what's going on here?
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2020-02-28T16:01:30Z Inline: something is off with clos too
2020-02-28T16:01:53Z Inline: method parameter lengths don't match etc...
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2020-02-28T16:13:41Z jmercouris: how to have more reasonable stack traces when a system doesn't load?
2020-02-28T16:13:45Z jmercouris: ASDF produces the most cryptic errors
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2020-02-28T16:22:21Z phoe: jmercouris: see the REPL, the actual error should be printed up there
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2020-02-28T16:23:43Z jmercouris: phoe: I look, thank you
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2020-02-28T16:51:01Z flip214: Can I tell esrap that a rule should be matched case-insensitively?
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2020-02-28T16:53:31Z flip214: ah,     (~ <literal>)               -- case-insensitive terminal
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2020-02-28T17:18:21Z flip214: ah, but that doesn't mean case-insensitive sub-expression, but _only_ a literal.
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2020-02-28T17:35:30Z seok: anyone done an embedded project in CL
2020-02-28T17:35:52Z phoe: seok: how embedded are you talking?
2020-02-28T17:36:03Z seok: idk, at any level
2020-02-28T17:36:06Z phoe: CL is not a good language to run on devices with kilobytes of RAM
2020-02-28T17:36:14Z seok: I've just started looking into it
2020-02-28T17:36:16Z phoe: but workable for raspberry pi
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2020-02-28T17:36:37Z seok: by workable, would you recommend it?
2020-02-28T17:37:25Z phoe: never done CL on raspi, only heard a few success stories - maybe someone else will have more to say
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2020-02-28T17:55:22Z jackdaniel: 32MB of memory is probably minimum what you need to do anything useful, raspberry pi is safely above this limit
2020-02-28T17:56:07Z jackdaniel: if you develop for arm32, then be aware that sbcl doesn't have multiple threads on that platform (ccl and ecl could be used)
2020-02-28T17:56:59Z jackdaniel: if you want to embed your lisp in another C application, then ecl may be linked as a shared library (aka libecl)
2020-02-28T17:58:09Z jackdaniel: if you develop for android/ios, then from free implementations only ecl gives you access to GUI stuff (via EQL5 project), however you may still run other implementations in a terminal (i.e termux) -- at least on android
2020-02-28T17:58:19Z jackdaniel: seok: ^
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2020-02-28T18:30:16Z Odin-: seok: Not CL, but definitely not a Clojure-inspired thing is uLisp.
2020-02-28T18:30:45Z Odin-: http://www.ulisp.com/
2020-02-28T18:31:01Z Odin-: Which was apparently originally designed for an Arduino.
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2020-02-28T18:35:05Z seok: nice
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2020-02-28T18:37:34Z Odin-: Ironically, I haven't messed around with it yet because I got distracted from setting up an ATMega328 on a breadboard for it a couple of hours ago.
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2020-02-28T18:43:30Z eschulte: I'm surprised that two-way-stream is a structure in some implementations and a class in others.  I guess the standard doesn't make any promises about the type or (or ability to inherit from) a "system class."
2020-02-28T18:44:14Z phoe: eschulte: correct.
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2020-02-28T18:44:53Z jackdaniel: system class n. a class that may be of type built-in-class in a conforming implementation and hence cannot be inherited by classes defined by conforming programs.
2020-02-28T18:45:02Z phoe: oh I was about to quote that
2020-02-28T18:45:27Z eschulte: Oh, so not just that it isn't guaranteed to be possible but is explicitly forbidden.
2020-02-28T18:45:30Z didi: Can I use a form to compute a member type list inside a `declare'? I'm using (declare (type #.`(member ,@(mapcar #'car *global-list*)) parameter)), but I have to compile the function every time I change *global-list*.
2020-02-28T18:45:46Z phoe: eschulte: not really "explicitly forbidden" - just non-conforming
2020-02-28T18:46:09Z phoe: didi: can'
2020-02-28T18:46:12Z phoe: can't do that
2020-02-28T18:46:21Z didi: phoe: Oh, well. Thank you.
2020-02-28T18:46:30Z phoe: eschulte: inheriting from system classes is implementation-defined behaviour; some will let you do that, some won't
2020-02-28T18:46:37Z phoe: but if you want to conform, you can't count on that being possible.
2020-02-28T18:46:59Z eschulte: Understood, well thanks, that's good to know.  Nobody happens to know of any packages that provide something like two-way-stream as a regular class?
2020-02-28T18:47:14Z Odin-: eschulte: Strictly speaking, doing anything that's not expressly stated valid by the standard makes a program non-conforming, and virtually any actually useful program is going to need implementation-defined behaviour.
2020-02-28T18:47:14Z phoe: Gray streams allow you to build your own one
2020-02-28T18:47:24Z phoe: what exactly do you want to do with your custom two-way stream?
2020-02-28T18:48:20Z eschulte: Just wrap it in another class that adds some additional information; but still be able to write-to and read-from it.  https://github.com/GrammaTech/cl-smt-lib/blob/master/cl-smt-lib.lisp#L30
2020-02-28T18:48:47Z phoe: additional information where? in the chars/bytes read from the stream?
2020-02-28T18:48:51Z eschulte: Thanks, maybe I'll look at defining something using trivial-gray-streams
2020-02-28T18:49:07Z phoe: ooh, I see
2020-02-28T18:49:14Z eschulte: Not, just tacking a "process" field onto it which holds a running process that you can read/write through the streams
2020-02-28T18:50:52Z phoe: you could see https://github.com/smithzvk/cl-plumbing for some similar stuff
2020-02-28T18:51:50Z eschulte: phoe: great thanks! I'll take a look at that
2020-02-28T18:52:07Z _death: eschulte: hey, I've two small patches to graph that don't seem to merit a fork/PR (and they likely need a little more work, such as adding/changing test cases) if you're interested: https://gist.github.com/death/a8b3235834d9e5eecb723356f786cf52
2020-02-28T18:52:59Z eschulte: _death: awesome, thanks.  I'll put them on my stack (although it will probably be a couple of days)
2020-02-28T18:53:32Z phoe: sounds more like a pipe than a stack
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2020-02-28T18:53:48Z phoe: or maybe like a prio heap
2020-02-28T18:53:55Z eschulte: phoe: yes, lilo stack
2020-02-28T18:54:21Z eschulte: more like a pool I swim in
2020-02-28T18:57:50Z didi: Dang. I can't use a type defined with DEFTYPE in a DEFMETHOD parameter.
2020-02-28T18:59:21Z Bike: yeah, only classes and eql specializers. the type system doesn't have all the right properties.
2020-02-28T18:59:52Z didi nods
2020-02-28T19:00:57Z eschulte: _death: applied those patches, thanks!
2020-02-28T19:01:08Z _death: eschulte: cool ;)
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2020-02-28T19:49:36Z pfdietz: You could have asked me about that, Eric. :)
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2020-02-28T20:07:00Z Xach lives to cause trouble
2020-02-28T20:07:43Z phoe: and make it double
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2020-02-28T20:14:07Z phoe takes 2d4 (5) damage
2020-02-28T20:14:19Z edgar-rft: Xach: you're the fist one I met who realized that
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2020-02-28T20:15:50Z Xach hee hee
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2020-02-28T20:31:41Z didi: Can I mutate the list returned by `multiple-value-list'?
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2020-02-28T20:34:29Z pfdietz: The Note implies you can, but I'm not sure that's normative.
2020-02-28T20:34:34Z pfdietz: (multiple-value-list form) ==  (multiple-value-call #'list form)     ;; the note
2020-02-28T20:34:51Z _death: the description says it "creates a list"
2020-02-28T20:35:07Z didi: Cool. Thank you.
2020-02-28T20:35:11Z _death: but I agree it's not explicitly allowing for mutation.. so if you're worried about that, don't
2020-02-28T20:35:18Z didi: Ah...
2020-02-28T20:35:29Z pfdietz: " Likewise, the ``Examples'' and ``Notes'' sections in a dictionary entry are not considered part of the standard and could be removed if necessary.  "
2020-02-28T20:35:56Z pfdietz: In practice, I don't think it would be a problem.
2020-02-28T20:36:24Z Xach: if it works now, maybe sbcl will make them specially immutable in the future
2020-02-28T20:36:48Z Xach: with a new spite-cons data structure
2020-02-28T20:37:34Z _death: the one where (sleep 1) loops forever?
2020-02-28T20:38:29Z aeth: The issue with literals like '(1 2 3) is that they exist before the runtime so it makes sense to optimize them, and those optimizations break down when you mutate them. I don't think MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST is like that at all. You'd probably need a really weird bytecode interpreter with a really weird interpretation of multiple values for that to be the case.
2020-02-28T20:39:30Z aeth: And even then that would probably only affect closures that return multiple values, and probably would be considered a bug.
2020-02-28T20:39:47Z aeth: At least IMO.
2020-02-28T20:40:58Z flip214: within an ESRAP:DEFRULE, can I find out up to which position the input was consumed? Or do I get that information only outside, from ESRAP:PARSE?
2020-02-28T20:45:08Z pfdietz: In a lisp that implemented multiple return values with a list, I could see (apply #'values '(1 2 3)) causing trouble.  But I don't think any do that.
2020-02-28T20:45:09Z flip214: ah, the (:lambda) option has &bounds
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2020-02-28T21:35:37Z didi: So... how do I arrange a DEFTYPE that depends on a DEFPARAMETER? The compiler complains my parameter variable isn't bound.
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2020-02-28T21:36:26Z didi: Hum, maybe I should use a variable with DEFTYPE.
2020-02-28T21:36:28Z pfdietz: the type gets computed at compile time.  I hope you aren't expecting it to be affected at run time.
2020-02-28T21:37:15Z didi: pfdietz: So you're saying the binding of value to a defparameter happens at run time. Hum.
2020-02-28T21:37:46Z pfdietz: It could be bound at compile time
2020-02-28T21:37:56Z didi: pfdietz: How so?
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2020-02-28T21:39:01Z didi: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (defparameter ...))?
2020-02-28T21:39:37Z pfdietz: I mean, you could deliberately arrange that, say by (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (eval '(defparameter *foo* 17)))
2020-02-28T21:39:49Z didi: pfdietz: Thank you.
2020-02-28T21:39:52Z pfdietz: Or just assign to it at the top level, again with eval-when
2020-02-28T21:40:02Z pfdietz: (and have a special declaim)
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2020-02-28T21:40:34Z didi: Beautiful.
2020-02-28T21:40:54Z pfdietz: The point I was trying to make earlier was that the type doesn't get modified in your program if, during run time, you rebind the variable.
2020-02-28T21:41:09Z didi: pfdietz: Right, right.
2020-02-28T21:44:46Z aeth: You should probably create the DEFTYPE with a macro.
2020-02-28T21:45:00Z aeth: That makes it very clear that it's not customizable past the initial part.
2020-02-28T21:45:11Z didi: It might have been easier to use an `ASSERT' inside the methods, but this has been instructive.
2020-02-28T21:45:16Z didi: aeth: Hum.
2020-02-28T21:47:03Z aeth: (deftype foobar (x) ...) then (defmacro define-your-type (foo var) `(deftype ,foo () '(foobar ,var))) then (define-your-type foo 17)
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2020-02-28T21:47:26Z aeth: You can also make the macro handle constants specially if they're constant, but then you need to EVAL-WHEN the constant to get it to work in CCL
2020-02-28T21:47:54Z didi: Heh, you gave me an idea. As all my values are keywords, I could write a macro that receives a list of N keywords and expand to N methods specializing to each keyword. A boatload of methods.
2020-02-28T21:48:02Z didi: aeth: Thank you.
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2020-02-28T21:51:37Z _death: will it give you a big advantage over a single method that can handle any one of them?
2020-02-28T21:52:34Z didi: _death: The idea is preventing myself of passing a keyword is doesn't know how to handle.
2020-02-28T21:52:42Z didi: s/is/it
2020-02-28T21:52:56Z _death: seems like a job for check-type
2020-02-28T21:53:24Z didi: _death: That too. But then we are back to my defparameter + deftype hack.
2020-02-28T21:54:31Z _death: if the set of keywords is not fixed at compile-time, then (assert (member keyword set-of-valid-keywords) (keyword) "...") could do
2020-02-28T21:54:43Z didi: _death: Right.
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2020-02-28T22:02:30Z _death: I can imagine cases where defining similar methods specialized on particular keywords would make sense, but it's not the only alternative, and has costs in terms of code generation, error reporting and handling, and such
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2020-02-28T22:16:55Z scymtym: could anyone with access to SBCL on windows tell me whether the following prints a tiny unicode tree to *STANDARD-OUTPUT*:
2020-02-28T22:16:56Z scymtym: (progn (ql:quickload :utilities.print-tree) (eval (read-from-string "(progn (setf utilities.print-tree::*use-unicode?* t) (utilities.print-tree:print-tree *standard-output* '(0 (1 (2) (3))) (utilities.print-tree:make-node-printer (lambda (stream depth node) (declare (ignore depth)) (princ (first node) stream)) nil #'rest)))")))
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2020-02-28T22:47:20Z Odin- hits 'start' in VirtualBox.
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2020-02-28T22:53:59Z Odin-: Huh. Apparently I hadn't set up Quicklisp yet. Shows how much I use that...
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2020-02-28T22:56:14Z Odin-: Seems to work in PowerShell, at least.
2020-02-28T22:57:39Z Odin-: scymtym: Using characters from the line drawing set, which I believe DOS historically covered better than most Unix systems...
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2020-02-29T00:59:09Z scymtym: Odin-: thank you
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2020-02-29T03:43:50Z Oladon: Odin-: You on Win10?
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2020-02-29T04:04:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2020-02-29T07:15:18Z asarch whispers: "The Simpsons, season 4, chapter #21. Shhhhh..."
2020-02-29T07:15:31Z asarch: D'oh! Wrong post. Sorry, sorry
2020-02-29T07:15:46Z asarch: Is there any way to make an overflow in a REPL?
2020-02-29T07:16:30Z asarch: I mean, to "eat" all the memory available?
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2020-02-29T07:18:27Z no-defun-allowed: (loop collect (list))
2020-02-29T07:18:48Z beach: (loop collect 0) even simpler
2020-02-29T07:19:51Z Shinmera: (make-array 1000000000000)
2020-02-29T07:19:52Z asarch: Can you prevent to fall in that situation?
2020-02-29T07:20:14Z beach: asarch: Not unless you know how to solve the halting problem.
2020-02-29T07:20:26Z asarch: Oh :-(
2020-02-29T07:20:50Z beach: asarch: In other words, it is an undecidable problem.
2020-02-29T07:21:18Z Shinmera: Even if you could determine the loop, it's not clear you could determine how to mitigate the failure.
2020-02-29T07:21:51Z beach: asarch: Do you know about Turing completeness?
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2020-02-29T07:22:05Z asarch: No, I don't
2020-02-29T07:22:23Z beach: That's fundamental knowledge when it comes to programming languages and their power.
2020-02-29T07:22:32Z asarch: Is it related to the "Turing Test"?
2020-02-29T07:22:35Z beach: No.
2020-02-29T07:22:49Z beach: I suggest you read up on "language theory".
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2020-02-29T07:23:32Z asarch: I México we usually know about it when we take classes about compilers (in some universities)
2020-02-29T07:23:51Z asarch: Yacc and Bison as far I know
2020-02-29T07:24:14Z asarch: I don't know exactly which one of them is inspired in Lisp
2020-02-29T07:24:21Z asarch: ...as far I know
2020-02-29T07:24:48Z no-defun-allowed: Those are unrelated to Turing completeness, and I don't think most Lisp users use either parser or lexer generators.
2020-02-29T07:24:57Z beach: Language theory is a branch of theoretical computer science.
2020-02-29T07:25:31Z asarch: Any good book for a dummy like me?
2020-02-29T07:27:00Z asarch: In the "The Land of Lisp" book they say it is very "dangerous" to leave the REPL exposed to the real world because someone could type malicious code
2020-02-29T07:27:19Z beach: Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation.  By Hopcroft, Motwani, and Ullman.
2020-02-29T07:27:50Z beach: Apparently available as a PDF.
2020-02-29T07:29:08Z asarch: That's great!
2020-02-29T07:29:20Z beach: Definitely.
2020-02-29T07:30:40Z asarch: I just was wondering about those malicious code. I guess someone could play with (with-open-file) and try to do some zero division operations, I guess
2020-02-29T07:30:49Z beach: It discusses the three major language processors, namely finite automata, pushdown automata, and Turning machines.  And it discusses the associated language categories for those processors.
2020-02-29T07:31:36Z beach: asarch: Unless you want to spend your software career doing silly stuff like designing web pages, you need to know some theory.
2020-02-29T07:32:19Z asarch: "Turing" or "Turning"?
2020-02-29T07:32:30Z beach: Alan Turing.
2020-02-29T07:32:41Z beach: Sorry.
2020-02-29T07:32:45Z asarch: Thank you
2020-02-29T07:34:59Z asarch: I'll get the book
2020-02-29T07:35:10Z pjb: asarch: it's just like any shell.
2020-02-29T07:35:19Z pjb: asarch: don't leave your terminal without locking it.
2020-02-29T07:36:17Z asarch: I see
2020-02-29T07:38:55Z pjb: asarch: https://termbin.com/dh4g
2020-02-29T07:39:13Z pjb: and remember to (lock-repl) before going to fetch a coffee…
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2020-02-29T07:39:49Z asarch: Nice!
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2020-02-29T07:40:11Z no-defun-allowed C-c C-cs pjb
2020-02-29T07:46:24Z asarch: One stupid question: that book, is it related to the Prolog programming language?
2020-02-29T07:47:41Z asarch: When I was learning PostgreSQL and the relationships, a fellow from #NetBSD told I should learn Prolog or Lisp in order to "get the most" of the SQL design
2020-02-29T07:48:18Z beach: asarch: The book I showed you?  Sure, it is related to every programming language (or nearly so).
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2020-02-29T07:49:10Z no-defun-allowed: I don't know if NetBSD weenies are going to necessarily be good sources on what paradigms relate to what; but Prolog is probably closer to SQL.
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2020-02-29T07:50:07Z no-defun-allowed: It may also be a stretch to say that SQL had a design; <http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/letters/CACM-RelationalDatabases.html> claims that it was just a codification of what databases did then.
2020-02-29T07:51:15Z asarch: Thank you!
2020-02-29T07:51:22Z asarch: Thank you very much guys!
2020-02-29T07:53:11Z asarch: Do you know Prolog?
2020-02-29T07:55:49Z pjb: Any programmer should know some prolog…
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2020-02-29T07:58:59Z asarch: Oh, that's great
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2020-02-29T08:00:00Z edgar-rft: Do you know Prolog? - No? - Then you might know my brother, he doesn't know Polog neither.
2020-02-29T08:03:12Z asarch: Thank you guys. Have a nice day. See you later :-)
2020-02-29T08:03:19Z asarch: (bed-time)
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2020-02-29T08:06:08Z pjb: only if (defun bed-time () (lock-repl) …) !
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2020-02-29T11:45:23Z Odin-: Oladon: I have Win10 on a VM.
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2020-02-29T12:57:16Z scymtym: Odin-: thanks again. here is where your effort helped: https://github.com/scymtym/utilities.print-tree/issues/1
2020-02-29T12:58:18Z Odin-: Glad to be of help. :)
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2020-02-29T13:39:01Z Pyromancer2198: Hi
2020-02-29T13:40:03Z Pyromancer2198: anyone here?
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2020-02-29T13:42:21Z Odin-: Patience at its finest.
2020-02-29T13:43:05Z madrik: Odin-: Yes
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2020-02-29T15:44:19Z ebrasca: Hi
2020-02-29T15:44:44Z beach: Hello ebrasca.
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2020-02-29T15:46:21Z ebrasca: How do debug when someting don't like to load in asdf?
2020-02-29T15:47:31Z ebrasca: Recently I get 'System "next/ring" not found' when loading :next .
2020-02-29T15:47:52Z ebrasca: next/ring is defined in .asd file
2020-02-29T15:48:04Z ebrasca: And it loaded fine before some update.
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2020-02-29T15:52:19Z ebrasca: beach: How are you doing?
2020-02-29T15:55:02Z beach: Working on SICL code generation.  There are some IR instructions that are non-trivial to turn into final code, because they modify the dynamic environment and the stack.  But once I am done with those, code generation should be complete.  I then need to figure out how to include the garbage collector and stuff like that in the final executable.
2020-02-29T15:55:25Z beach: ebrasca: Sorry you are having problems.  Kind of hard to debug with the information you are able to provide.
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2020-02-29T17:22:57Z ebrasca: beach: I don't know how to seach more info and I like to start/hack next browser.
2020-02-29T17:24:01Z beach: I understand, but I don't know how to help you.
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2020-02-29T17:32:12Z pjb: ebrasca: you'd have to know asdf. You can learn asdf by exploring the debugging stack frames? (handler-bind ((error #'invoke-debugger)) (asdf:load-system :next))
2020-02-29T17:32:29Z pjb: ebrasca: an alternative is to 1- read asdf documentation. 2- read asdf sources.
2020-02-29T17:32:36Z pjb: so 2 alternatives for the price of 1.
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2020-02-29T17:32:51Z ebrasca: 3 wait untils it fixes itself
2020-02-29T17:33:05Z pjb: that's a way too.
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2020-02-29T18:15:02Z flip214: 4 pay someone to fix it
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2020-02-29T18:31:37Z phoe: I have an ASDF system. Is there any sensible way of getting the commit ID of the Git repository the ASDF system is in?
2020-02-29T18:31:56Z phoe: (Or any other value like NIL if the system is not in a repository.)
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2020-02-29T18:34:07Z Shinmera: phoe: (legit:current-commit (legit:init (asdf:system-source-directory :legit)))
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2020-02-29T18:34:36Z Shinmera: or actually even just (legit:current-commit (asdf:system-source-directory :legit))
2020-02-29T18:36:16Z phoe: Shinmera: woah
2020-02-29T18:36:26Z phoe: do you really have a library for everything
2020-02-29T18:36:33Z Shinmera: Unfortunately not
2020-02-29T18:37:08Z eta: (ext:increase-popularity-of :cl)
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2020-02-29T20:27:00Z phoe: Is there any trivial-* system for creating thread-safe hash tables?
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2020-02-29T20:30:31Z phoe: Or should I use bt:with-lock-held for cross-implementation support?
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2020-02-29T20:32:04Z aeth: it would be nice to see more custom hash tables...
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2020-02-29T20:43:29Z White_Flame: do enough implementations have thread-safe hash tables to warrant a trivial-* lib?
2020-02-29T20:44:20Z Bike: trivial-garbage has weak hash tables
2020-02-29T20:44:26Z Bike: er
2020-02-29T20:44:31Z Bike: that was a silly thing to say
2020-02-29T20:44:45Z White_Flame: phoe:  beyond a simple with-lock-held, ideally a threadsafe hashtable would allow simultaneous readers as long as there's no writer
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2020-02-29T20:48:52Z pjb: Honestly, I never needed thread safe hash-tables.  I need thread safe *my-own-data-structure* or something.  I need mailboxes, monitors, stuff like that…
2020-02-29T20:49:02Z pjb: actors
2020-02-29T20:49:28Z phoe: White_Flame: seems like SBCL, CCL, ECL, and LW have these
2020-02-29T20:49:30Z phoe: don't know about others
2020-02-29T20:49:47Z phoe: Bike: I need strong tables tho
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2020-02-29T23:28:21Z phoe: I have arbitrary u8 vectors that can be from 1 to 255 bytes in length. What would be the best way to use them as keys in a hash table? EQUALP?
2020-02-29T23:28:47Z phoe: I could in theory convert them into integers, but I have no idea if that'll work well for 255-byte-long bignums.
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2020-02-29T23:29:36Z pjb: eql would work well…
2020-02-29T23:29:38Z pjb: and be fast.
2020-02-29T23:30:06Z phoe: eql? you mean for bignums?
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2020-02-29T23:30:41Z pjb: (let ((k1 (make-array 3 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) (k2 (make-array 3 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))) (h (make-hash-table :test 'eql))) (setf (gethash k1 h) 'hello (gethash k2 h) 'world) (gethash k1 h)) #| --> hello ; t |#
2020-02-29T23:30:44Z pjb: works nicely.
2020-02-29T23:31:15Z phoe: I want to compare by contents, not by identity.
2020-02-29T23:31:21Z phoe: (eql (coerce '(1 2 3 4 5) '(vector (unsigned-byte 8))) (coerce '(1 2 3 4 5) '(vector (unsigned-byte 8)))) ;=> NIL
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2020-02-29T23:32:03Z pjb: Ok then equalp.
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2020-02-29T23:32:26Z pjb: arrays are equal only if they are eq.
2020-02-29T23:32:54Z pjb: (unless they're strings or bit-vectors in which case they're compared element-by-element with eql).
2020-02-29T23:33:15Z phoe: I kind of wonder what would work better - bignums with eql or vectors with equalp.
2020-02-29T23:33:31Z pjb: define better.
2020-02-29T23:33:46Z phoe: that's the hard part
2020-02-29T23:33:56Z pjb: depends on the hash function used by the implementation.
2020-02-29T23:34:03Z phoe: right - let me benchmark that, then
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2020-02-29T23:53:06Z no-defun-allowed: Is it standard to be able to write (declare ((complex-type-specifier ...) variables ...)), or do I have to write (declare (type (complex-type-specifier ...) variables ...))?
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2020-02-29T23:55:08Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_type.htm, first thing in Notes
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2020-02-29T23:55:18Z phoe: <insert obligatory comment about notes not being normative>
2020-02-29T23:55:47Z no-defun-allowed: Last time I checked, ABCL did not accept the former, because the declaration was not a symbol.
2020-02-29T23:55:51Z no-defun-allowed: Right, thanks phoe.
2020-02-29T23:55:54Z phoe: but, yeah, the top of the page mentions the same thing.
2020-02-29T23:56:12Z phoe: then that's an ABCL conformance bug
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2020-02-29T23:56:41Z no-defun-allowed: Right then.
2020-02-29T23:57:05Z phoe: as an additional exercise in code that no sane person would write, you could check (defun foo (x) (declare (#.(find-class 'integer) x)) (+ x x))
2020-02-29T23:57:22Z phoe: class objects are valid type specifiers after all!
2020-02-29T23:57:27Z phoe mic drops, goes to sleep
2020-02-29T23:57:34Z no-defun-allowed: Take care.
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