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2018-06-01T00:03:45Z rpg: aeth: "Every time you use EQUAL on a number, a kitten dies."
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2018-06-01T00:05:09Z aeth: rpg: "Every time you use EQUAL on a number, a CAR crashes."
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2018-06-01T00:11:06Z edgar-rft: will Lisp ever adopt self-driving CARs?
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2018-06-01T00:12:33Z aeth: edgar-rft: no, only garbage collectors move CARs in Lisp
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2018-06-01T01:01:18Z Xach: rme: thanks
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2018-06-01T03:22:37Z skidd0: Hello. Has anyone used a nice CL TUI package?
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2018-06-01T03:30:21Z edgar-rft: skidd0, is the Lisp REPL not text enough? Or what specifically are you looking for?
2018-06-01T03:33:25Z skidd0: an easy way to make a terminal frontend interface to a todo app
2018-06-01T03:33:26Z skidd0: so, mostly placing text around the terminal display, with some | bars and +---+ beams
2018-06-01T03:33:26Z skidd0: or color
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2018-06-01T07:48:14Z beach: But if you want to write FOO:BAR in your code, the package FOO needs to exist when that code is read.
2018-06-01T07:48:26Z xificurC: beach: do you mean you don't use it like I'm describing or you don't write scripts that would be run from the command line?
2018-06-01T07:48:45Z beach: If you don't want to do it that way, you may have to do something like FIND-PACKAGE, then INTERN, then SYMBOL-FUNCTION.
2018-06-01T07:48:49Z shka: beach: both package and symbol
2018-06-01T07:48:57Z xificurC: beach: I could (funcall (symbol-value foo:bar)) :)
2018-06-01T07:49:16Z xificurC: symbol-function
2018-06-01T07:49:26Z beach: xificurC: That code can not be read by the reader if the FOO package does not exist.
2018-06-01T07:49:28Z shka: or just function
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2018-06-01T07:49:42Z scymtym: xificurC: you could make that work using (uiop:symbol-call '#:PACKAGE '#:SYMBOL) but if you want something like git, it seems better to dump everything into a single executable file ahead of time
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2018-06-01T07:49:47Z beach: xificurC: I don't write scripts in Common Lisp.
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2018-06-01T07:50:06Z shka: xificurC: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf take a look at that
2018-06-01T07:50:11Z shka: ignore the title
2018-06-01T07:50:42Z shka: every beginer should read that
2018-06-01T07:50:53Z beach: xificurC: If you write FOO:BAR in your code and try to compile it, then the READ function will first read it.  When READ sees FOO:BAR, it looks for a package named FOO.  If that package does not exist, an error will be signaled.
2018-06-01T07:51:12Z beach: xificurC: So you can't even COMPILE your code unless the FOO package has been created.
2018-06-01T07:52:17Z beach: xificurC: So, the code that reads (funcall (symbol-value 'foo:bar)) [note the quote] can not even be read by the compiler unless the package FOO exists.
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2018-06-01T07:52:45Z xificurC: interesting
2018-06-01T07:52:53Z beach: xificurC: What scymtym is suggesting is basically a shorthand for what I suggested, i.e, find the package with that name, find the symbol with that name in that package, find the function with that name, call it.
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2018-06-01T07:53:19Z xificurC: I'll just require it in the toplevel for now. This is a habit taken from the previous version of this tool (written in python)
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2018-06-01T07:54:49Z shka: hmmm
2018-06-01T07:54:50Z White_Flame: Even consider this, at the toplevel: (when <test> (require :foo))  (when <test> (foo:bar))
2018-06-01T07:55:41Z shka: this does not sound like a good idea to be honest
2018-06-01T07:55:46Z White_Flame: the 2nd expression would fail to read if the <test> wasn't true
2018-06-01T07:56:03Z White_Flame: your source code breaks if the packages aren't available, basically
2018-06-01T07:56:41Z xificurC: White_Flame: well sure, but that's like saying (progn (let ((x 1)) (+ x 1)) (+x 10)) breaks
2018-06-01T07:56:45Z xificurC: of course there's scope involved
2018-06-01T07:56:58Z White_Flame: no, it has nothing to do with lexical scope
2018-06-01T07:57:08Z xificurC: White_Flame: i'm not saying it does
2018-06-01T07:57:08Z White_Flame: it has to do when the side effects of creating a package take place, vs READing source code
2018-06-01T07:57:11Z beach: xificurC: That's a very different mechanism.
2018-06-01T07:57:39Z makomo: morning
2018-06-01T07:57:45Z xificurC: eh, I'm not saying it's the same thing, just that you have to think of the consequences and structure your code
2018-06-01T07:57:46Z White_Flame: I don't know if you can get away with #+ style omission of an entire source code term if that term contains unreadable symbols
2018-06-01T07:57:57Z White_Flame: probably, now that I think about it, for platform specifics
2018-06-01T07:58:16Z shka: makomo: hello
2018-06-01T07:58:23Z White_Flame: so your (if <test> ...) would be #+test instead
2018-06-01T07:58:35Z xificurC: as I said this is a common concept in python, loading a package only when needed
2018-06-01T07:58:44Z xificurC: but I don't want to write python :)
2018-06-01T07:58:59Z White_Flame: python doesn't read source code the way lisp does
2018-06-01T07:59:13Z makomo: xificurC: lazily loading packages?
2018-06-01T07:59:14Z beach: Loading is such a 20th-century concept.
2018-06-01T07:59:36Z shka: beach: and what should we do now?
2018-06-01T07:59:51Z beach: Assume everything is always is (virtual) memory.
2018-06-01T08:00:07Z beach: But then, our current operating systems are so 20th century.
2018-06-01T08:00:15Z White_Flame: but CL still requires ahead of time dependency declaration
2018-06-01T08:00:22Z White_Flame: which is basically a load
2018-06-01T08:00:39Z beach: Unless everything is always loaded.
2018-06-01T08:00:52Z White_Flame: which means your .rc file is performing loads
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2018-06-01T08:01:06Z beach: Only if you are using a stupid OS like Unix.
2018-06-01T08:01:11Z White_Flame: do you just mapc over your QL dist and load everything?
2018-06-01T08:01:14Z beach: Otherwise, you wouldn't have a .rc file.
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2018-06-01T08:01:47Z beach: What I am saying is that we have these problems because we insist on using OS technology from the 1960s.
2018-06-01T08:01:59Z White_Flame: sure, including CL's model
2018-06-01T08:02:37Z xificurC: interpreting is a much simpler concept than compiling
2018-06-01T08:02:39Z White_Flame: but loading also might have initialization side effects, which make it a very decisive call
2018-06-01T08:03:03Z beach: Common Lisp has some features that allows it to run on 1960-style operating systems, but it would do much better as an operating system in itself.
2018-06-01T08:03:27Z beach: xificurC: What made you mention interpretation and compilation?
2018-06-01T08:03:27Z White_Flame: CL doesn't have a nice clean notion of "load" and dependency.  It only has things to mutate its image on command
2018-06-01T08:03:34Z antoszka: beach: You mean Genera-style?
2018-06-01T08:03:37Z beach: xificurC: Seem like unrelated concepts.
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2018-06-01T08:03:45Z antoszka: beach: With CL all the way down?
2018-06-01T08:03:46Z beach: antoszka: If you like, yes.
2018-06-01T08:03:52Z antoszka: (like the turtles)
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2018-06-01T08:04:11Z xificurC: beach: my initial  example question
2018-06-01T08:04:22Z White_Flame: another practical issue is the flat namespace for packages, which doesn't scale
2018-06-01T08:04:40Z White_Flame: so yeah, CL would need a lot of changes to clean up such issues; it's not just the OS
2018-06-01T08:04:51Z beach: xificurC: I don't recall your asking anything about interpretation vs compilation.
2018-06-01T08:04:57Z White_Flame: (although the influence from ye olde OSes certainly had a hand in the design)
2018-06-01T08:04:58Z xificurC: uiop:symbol-call works, but feels very hackish :)
2018-06-01T08:05:14Z White_Flame: when you need to hack, use EVAL ;)
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2018-06-01T08:05:22Z xificurC: beach: I was  comparing to python, which would load such code fine
2018-06-01T08:05:23Z shka: White_Flame: not enough in his case
2018-06-01T08:05:39Z beach: xificurC: Still not related to interpretation vs compilation.
2018-06-01T08:05:42Z shka: because he needs to speculate on read time
2018-06-01T08:06:02Z xificurC: beach: how come?
2018-06-01T08:06:10Z shka: xificurC: you don't have issue with interpreter or compiler, you simply don't understand how reader works
2018-06-01T08:06:14Z beach: xificurC: Why would it be?
2018-06-01T08:06:19Z White_Flame: (when test (eval (read-from-string "lol lisp source code with read-time-unknown packages")))
2018-06-01T08:06:21Z shka: packages are implemented on the reader level
2018-06-01T08:06:35Z shka: White_Flame: yes, exactly
2018-06-01T08:06:42Z shka: but it won't work
2018-06-01T08:06:45Z shka: obviously
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2018-06-01T08:07:27Z shka: xificurC: seriously, give yourself a favor and read this guide i pasted
2018-06-01T08:07:46Z xificurC: I will, thanks
2018-06-01T08:07:51Z shka: literally everyone starting with lisp is getting this wrong
2018-06-01T08:07:54Z beach: xificurC: Your question had to do with loading systems (that create packages) at run-time.  Compilation and interpretation have to do with how programs are executed.  The two are orthogonal concepts.
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2018-06-01T08:08:53Z shka: anyway, if beach is not using CL for scripting, it may suggest that scripting in CL is not a good idea :P
2018-06-01T08:09:06Z antoszka: shka: which guide did you paste? my favourite noob-lisp article (the complete idiot's guide)?
2018-06-01T08:09:06Z aeth: White_Flame: nothing scales indefinitely. packages scale OK except for nicknames, though.
2018-06-01T08:09:13Z shka: antoszka: yup
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2018-06-01T08:09:24Z shka: antoszka: same you gave me waaaaaaaaaay back :-)
2018-06-01T08:09:38Z White_Flame: xificurC: think about your source code, as it is read.  What are the symbols in the source code '(if test (require :foo) (foo:bar)) if the requirement is not loaded yet, before the form is executed?
2018-06-01T08:09:48Z antoszka: xificurC: I second the link that shka pasted, it was the *most* revealing CL text I read :)
2018-06-01T08:09:49Z aeth: xificurC: Even if it was interpreted it would still fail because it's read time, as shka said. As in, foo:bar becomes something else before an interpreter would get to it.
2018-06-01T08:09:50Z xificurC: shka: I'd rather put some effort into making it work with CL than keep using python
2018-06-01T08:09:53Z beach: White_Flame: I can fix the namespace problem with first-class global environments.
2018-06-01T08:10:05Z antoszka: shka: Yeah, it's excellent.
2018-06-01T08:10:41Z White_Flame: beach: yep, and I do like those ideas.  But they are changes to CL, and old OS technology isn't 100% to blame
2018-06-01T08:11:32Z White_Flame: aeth: packages dont' scale great if every library in existence is always loaded all the time
2018-06-01T08:11:36Z beach: White_Flame: Oh, sure.  By the way, first-class global environments do not alter the Common Lisp language, nor even extend it, any more than a library does.
2018-06-01T08:11:38Z White_Flame: *package names
2018-06-01T08:11:41Z aeth: xificurC: for instance, think about a literal read eval print loop, i.e. (loop (print (eval (read foo)))
2018-06-01T08:11:51Z aeth: White_Flame: If you count multiple versions of the same thing, then yes
2018-06-01T08:12:09Z aeth: They don't scale to 2, then
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2018-06-01T08:12:40Z shka: beach: sadly, i can't simply run SICL
2018-06-01T08:12:48Z shka: and i don't know when i will can
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2018-06-01T08:13:06Z White_Flame: before you can run SICL, you must learn to walk SICL
2018-06-01T08:13:18Z shka: White_Flame: :D
2018-06-01T08:14:02Z shka: honestly, i don't even know how lisp future will look
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2018-06-01T08:17:11Z shka: if anybody could write blog post about that, it would be awesome
2018-06-01T08:17:25Z shka: something like Common Lisp 2025
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2018-06-01T08:18:46Z White_Flame: 2025: FOLLOW CLHS, CHANGE NOTHING
2018-06-01T08:19:18Z White_Flame: 3025: FOLLOW CLHS, CHANGE NOTHING
2018-06-01T08:19:21Z White_Flame: etc
2018-06-01T08:19:22Z White_Flame: :)
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2018-06-01T08:20:11Z White_Flame: at some point, re-commoning Racket, Clojure, etc into a Common² Lisp would be interesting
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2018-06-01T08:21:16Z shka: Common Common Lisp
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2018-06-01T08:32:24Z xificurC: shka: read it, useful, thanks
2018-06-01T08:32:58Z xificurC: everything is a freaking rocket in CL. No cars or bicycles, just rockets
2018-06-01T08:33:16Z shka: nah
2018-06-01T08:33:27Z shka: it ist just slightly different
2018-06-01T08:33:54Z shka: but if you think about it, it is hard to find other way to do things
2018-06-01T08:34:08Z shka: at least correct
2018-06-01T08:34:15Z xificurC: afaik picolisp doesn't do autointerning
2018-06-01T08:34:25Z shka: neither clojure
2018-06-01T08:34:30Z White_Flame: it's the same sort of namespacing that many languages have.  it's just that other languages don't have first-class symbols
2018-06-01T08:34:41Z shka: but autointerining is not that important to be honest
2018-06-01T08:34:58Z xificurC: White_Flame: yes but (symbol-function 'foo:bar), I really expected that to work
2018-06-01T08:35:08Z White_Flame: what is 'foo:bar if there is no foo?
2018-06-01T08:35:18Z beach: xificurC: If that worked, you would have a very slow Lisp system.
2018-06-01T08:35:19Z xificurC: wouldn't think it's the reader's job to find that out
2018-06-01T08:35:22Z White_Flame: in C++, what is int x = foo::bar if there is no foo?
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2018-06-01T08:35:38Z White_Flame: (or whatever its syntax is)
2018-06-01T08:35:54Z xificurC: I thought the symbol's function slot will be fetched at runtime
2018-06-01T08:35:59Z xificurC: which it is
2018-06-01T08:36:04Z White_Flame: then look up the symbol at runtime
2018-06-01T08:36:10Z White_Flame: which is perfectly doable
2018-06-01T08:36:45Z White_Flame: granted, it's a utility that isn't built in as a single function call; not sure if alexandria exports something like that
2018-06-01T08:36:46Z xificurC: I'll just have to remember it's the reader's job to work out the packages
2018-06-01T08:37:10Z shka: xificurC: exactly
2018-06-01T08:37:13Z White_Flame: it's the reader's job to turn a source code string into source code lists
2018-06-01T08:37:23Z White_Flame: and those lists contain symbol instances
2018-06-01T08:37:38Z White_Flame: (and yes, not just lists blah blah)
2018-06-01T08:37:42Z xificurC: there's uiop:find-symbol* which states "also works well when the package is not present"
2018-06-01T08:37:55Z White_Flame: there you go
2018-06-01T08:37:56Z beach: xificurC: If that worked, the system would have to store the package name and the symbol name.  Whenever you need to call it as a function, it would have to find the package, then find the symbol in the package, then find the function that has that name.
2018-06-01T08:38:29Z xificurC: beach: that's what I was expecting
2018-06-01T08:38:37Z beach: xificurC: That might be what Python does, which is perhaps why Python is a few orders of magnitude slower than Common Lisp.
2018-06-01T08:38:46Z White_Flame: and that means you can't use it directly as a value
2018-06-01T08:39:02Z beach: xificurC: Well, Common Lisp was designed for high performance applications.  Not for scripting.
2018-06-01T08:39:24Z White_Flame: if it had some sort of syntax, it would be (if test (funcall '#?foo:bar)) if #? meant runtime resolution of symbols
2018-06-01T08:39:26Z shka: beach: that being said, it CL can do all sorts of things
2018-06-01T08:39:33Z xificurC: beach: I really don't want to discuss what python does, I just gave an example of a language I know accepts that
2018-06-01T08:39:35Z beach: shka: Sure.
2018-06-01T08:39:49Z shka: i made document markup out of lisp ^_^
2018-06-01T08:39:56Z xificurC: I loathe python probably even more than js
2018-06-01T08:40:15Z makomo: i'm currently using python and the dreadful opencv library :^(
2018-06-01T08:40:27Z shka: xificurC: i think you simply need to switch your paradgim
2018-06-01T08:40:50Z shka: maybe instead of trying to run scripts, simply make self contained executable?
2018-06-01T08:40:56Z White_Flame: you should probably choose which file to load based on which libraries are there, not try to manage it per-expression
2018-06-01T08:40:56Z shka: using save-lisp-and-die
2018-06-01T08:40:57Z xificurC: shka: I'm switching paradigms all the time. from bash to python to CL to clojure to java to ...
2018-06-01T08:41:05Z White_Flame: iunless it's very localized and rare
2018-06-01T08:41:41Z White_Flame: what is the context around this runtime decision anyway?
2018-06-01T08:41:46Z shka: instead of spaghetti of script files, you will just have one executable
2018-06-01T08:41:48Z xificurC: save-lisp-and-die means I'm moving away from scripting to compiling
2018-06-01T08:42:10Z xificurC: White_Flame: context? what do you mean
2018-06-01T08:42:15Z shka: xificurC: to be honest you are compiling no matter what if you are using sbcl
2018-06-01T08:42:17Z White_Flame: what is the code trying to accomplish?
2018-06-01T08:42:28Z makomo: White_Flame: lazily loading packages, i think
2018-06-01T08:42:50Z xificurC: shka: yes but from scripts. If you change a .lisp file and save it you're done
2018-06-01T08:43:31Z beach: xificurC: You need to learn about compilation vs interpretation, because you are still confused about that.
2018-06-01T08:43:34Z xificurC: White_Flame: it's supposed to be a wrapper around a bunch of other tools
2018-06-01T08:43:48Z White_Flame: give me a specific.  Why is that sort of test & call being made?
2018-06-01T08:43:56Z White_Flame: a specific situation
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2018-06-01T08:44:24Z shka: xificurC: well, then automate edit lisp and build executable part
2018-06-01T08:44:47Z shka: at this point it is just a matter of convinience
2018-06-01T08:45:14Z xificurC: White_Flame: if git was a bunch of scripts then `git log` needs different things than `git tag`
2018-06-01T08:45:52Z xificurC: loading everything will have a different overhead to loading only what's needed for the particular command
2018-06-01T08:46:21Z beach: Yes, loading it only when you need it will be much slower.
2018-06-01T08:46:49Z xificurC: beach: compared to having one precompiled blub
2018-06-01T08:46:58Z beach: Yes.
2018-06-01T08:47:11Z xificurC: at which point editing will be much slower
2018-06-01T08:47:23Z makomo: tradeoffs everywhere
2018-06-01T08:47:36Z beach: xificurC: What?
2018-06-01T08:47:44Z shka: hardly
2018-06-01T08:48:16Z shka: xificurC: you can even connect to a running process and update code as it runs
2018-06-01T08:48:17Z TMA: xificurC: you should implement both variants and measure it -- performance is not much amenable to guesswork
2018-06-01T08:48:33Z White_Flame: I don't get the problem.  If you want to minimally load things, and simulate a bunch of independent scripts, then have a .lisp file per thing you want to do, with the central launcher loading one of them.  Each one would pull in its own dependency
2018-06-01T08:49:18Z White_Flame: which basically _is_ a bunch of independent scripts :-P
2018-06-01T08:49:35Z xificurC: as an example - I used anki on my work pc one time and wanted to download a deck from within it. I got a handshake failure because we have a MITM certificate. Anki gives no options to handle this of course. So I checked what is it written in - python; searched for the correct file, edited it, saved, restarted, done
2018-06-01T08:50:43Z White_Flame: I guess your launcher could also set a feature, and wrap each functionality in its own toplevel #+foo (progn ...)
2018-06-01T08:50:46Z xificurC: White_Flame: yes I was just thinking about that. Even more small files but would solve this problem
2018-06-01T08:50:54Z beach: xificurC: Sure, if you think editing files to fix bugs is going to be a more frequent activity than running the code, then you should choose that model.
2018-06-01T08:51:06Z White_Flame: but that feature-based one might be fiddly with managing read-time vs when the feature is set
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2018-06-01T08:51:58Z xificurC: beach: it's not just that. The tools we use are included in every project as a git submodule. If I keep it as a pile-of-files I'm done. If I save-and-die 50MB or bigger images I have a new problem
2018-06-01T08:52:18Z beach: What problem would that be?
2018-06-01T08:52:25Z beach: The expensive 50MB disk space?
2018-06-01T08:52:30Z xificurC: distributing
2018-06-01T08:52:36Z xificurC: versioning
2018-06-01T08:52:56Z xificurC: handling different versions per project
2018-06-01T08:53:13Z White_Flame: source vs binary shouldn't affect versioning
2018-06-01T08:53:22Z White_Flame: it's an orthogonal problem
2018-06-01T08:54:06Z xificurC: true, still every project might need to use a different version
2018-06-01T08:54:57Z xificurC: especially in the beginning when changes are many and often breaking it's a big burden to maintain all of this
2018-06-01T08:55:57Z White_Flame: but in any case, loading fasls is quite fast.  I suspect there's a good amount of overlap in the dependencies between the different things you're launching, and it wouldn't be expensive at all to just load in the union at the beginning, so all source code has the libs available
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2018-06-01T08:56:32Z White_Flame: if your tools are big enough to seaprate into separate .lisp files, then just selectively load one of those
2018-06-01T08:56:37Z White_Flame: and keep the dependencies in them
2018-06-01T08:57:03Z White_Flame: (keep the calls to load the dependencies in the individual lisp files, that is)
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2018-06-01T09:02:32Z xificurC: thanks for the tips guys, I really appreciate it
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2018-06-01T09:31:09Z xificurC: after reading about shadowing I'm still confused. I have a package with (defpackage :foo (:shadow #:arg) ...) and when I try to use-package it I get name-conflict with sb-debug:arg. I thought saying (:shadow #:arg) I'm saying "if someone uses me I want my symbol to be used"
2018-06-01T09:33:23Z White_Flame: if someone uses both foo and sb-debug, which arg should win?
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2018-06-01T09:33:38Z White_Flame: also, export means if soembody uses you, they see that symbol.
2018-06-01T09:33:46Z White_Flame: not shadow.  that overrides imports
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2018-06-01T09:34:51Z xificurC: White_Flame: I'm exporting arg and I want it to override sb-debug:arg
2018-06-01T09:35:03Z White_Flame: that's up to the importing package, not up to foo
2018-06-01T09:35:29Z White_Flame: also, arg is a terrible symbol name to export, given how generic it is
2018-06-01T09:35:32Z beach: xificurC: I strongly recommend you don't USE packages other than the COMMON-LISP package.
2018-06-01T09:36:10Z xificurC: so foo doesn't need the declaration, it would need it only if it was using another package that would have arg exported?
2018-06-01T09:36:36Z White_Flame: if foo wants to decalre its own symbol, and it's using something which already defines it, then you want foo to locally shadow it
2018-06-01T09:36:45Z White_Flame: that's common for the concept of shadowing in most languages
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2018-06-01T09:37:10Z xificurC: White_Flame: so how can I import it so that it overrides?
2018-06-01T09:37:36Z beach: xificurC: I strongly recommend you not import symbols and instead use explicit package prefixes.
2018-06-01T09:37:38Z White_Flame: as beach said, best not to :use
2018-06-01T09:37:51Z xificurC: beach: maybe if I tell the story you can tell me how you'd do it :)
2018-06-01T09:38:48Z beach: xificurC: When you USE a package, you commit yourself to future modifications to that package.  You are not protected from the author of that package exporting a new symbol in a future release, and that symbol causing a conflict.
2018-06-01T09:39:16Z xificurC: we are building a whole bunch of docker images. There's Dockerfiles now and I want to substitute them (or get before them) with a small CL library that copies its commands and generates a Dockerfile from it. That gets me a step ahead and I can easily extract some data from it
2018-06-01T09:39:16Z beach: xificurC: Just don't USE.  Instead, when you refer to an exported symbol in a different package, use an explicit package prefix.
2018-06-01T09:40:16Z xificurC: so my colleagues will be writing dockerfile.lisp files that will look like e.g. (from "ubuntu") (arg :foo) (copy "data/" "/data/") ...
2018-06-01T09:40:50Z beach: xificurC: It doesn't matter what use case you have.  Just don't USE any package other than COMMON-LISP (which we know will not change in the future).  Whenever you refer to a symbol BAR in the package FOO, instead of USE-ing FOO and writing just BAR, don't use FOO and write FOO:BAR instead.
2018-06-01T09:41:25Z White_Flame: if you want all utilities exposed that you wrote, then that code should be in-package foo
2018-06-01T09:41:48Z White_Flame: or make a simple package that uses it, sort of like cl-user uses cl
2018-06-01T09:42:42Z xificurC: beach: I didn't expect you to tell me my use case is fine for USEing, I wanted to ask if there's another *good* way of achieving the same result
2018-06-01T09:43:30Z beach: xificurC: Oh, I don't understand your use case.  I was just telling you how to avoid the conflicting symbol problem, and how to make your application safer in the process.
2018-06-01T09:44:27Z beach: White_Flame: Actually, it is even better to have a separate package (say FOO) that only contains the exported symbols, and to have a package (say FOO-IMPLEMENTATION) that contains all random symbols introduced by code for the symbols in FOO.
2018-06-01T09:44:43Z beach: White_Flame: Common Lisp itself does that, as does CLIM.
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2018-06-01T09:45:27Z xificurC: beach: why does that matter if the exported symbols are the same?
2018-06-01T09:45:28Z beach: White_Flame: I guess that's what you meant when you mentioned CL-USER.
2018-06-01T09:45:56Z beach: xificurC: It doesn't matter that much.
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2018-06-01T09:48:18Z beach: xificurC: The thing about not USE-ing is more important.
2018-06-01T09:48:42Z makomo: beach: what about the iterate library for example? the recommended way to use the library is to USE the package
2018-06-01T09:48:44Z White_Flame: package nicknames help keep the syntactic burden low
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2018-06-01T09:48:53Z beach: makomo: I am sorry to hear that.
2018-06-01T09:48:59Z makomo: well, indeed :-)
2018-06-01T09:49:02Z White_Flame: bt:make-thread instead of bordeaux-threads:make-thread, for instance
2018-06-01T09:49:09Z makomo: i've asked about it here before, and i was told that just USE-ing the package is the way to go
2018-06-01T09:49:25Z beach: makomo: I am very sorry to hear that. :)
2018-06-01T09:49:28Z makomo: because the library uses symbols within its own package for iteration clauses, etc.
2018-06-01T09:49:30Z makomo: hah :-)
2018-06-01T09:49:35Z xificurC: beach: i was about to USE the package just before falling off the edge, as in (use :foo) (run-from-foo some-args) and that's the end of the file
2018-06-01T09:49:40Z makomo: beach: so for example  (iterate:iterate (for ...)) won't work
2018-06-01T09:49:50Z makomo: you have to do (iterate:iterate (iterate:for ...)), etc.
2018-06-01T09:49:53Z beach: makomo: Indeed.
2018-06-01T09:50:07Z makomo: and that obviously gets out of hand very very quickly :'(
2018-06-01T09:51:09Z makomo: beach: i really like the first-class global environments idea. has it been implemented anywhere yet or is an implementation in progress?
2018-06-01T09:51:18Z makomo: especially because of the sandboxing issue
2018-06-01T09:51:50Z White_Flame: package local nicknames are also highly relevant here
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2018-06-01T09:52:30Z makomo: hm, could a restricted reader achieve the same thing as FCGE (first-class global environments :-)) regarding the sandboxing issue?
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2018-06-01T09:52:56Z beach: makomo: Cleavir uses the protocol.  For SICL bootstrapping, the global environment is indeed an instance of a standard object that implements the protocol.  Since Cleavir uses the protocol, so does Clasp and now the new CLISP compiler as well.
2018-06-01T09:52:57Z makomo: for example, you want to forbid the usage of EVAL/COMPILE, the #. read macro, etc.
2018-06-01T09:53:33Z makomo: the issue regarding #. would obviously be handled in the reader i guess, so it's not very relevant
2018-06-01T09:53:39Z beach: makomo: But I think they use a very simple instance where the methods trampoline to their own global environment.
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2018-06-01T09:54:23Z makomo: beach: CLISP uses cleavir or just the fcge idea?
2018-06-01T09:54:57Z beach: makomo: karlosz is implementing a new Cleavir-based compiler for CLISP as a Google Summer-Of-Code project.
2018-06-01T09:55:19Z jmercouris: beach: How does that work exactly? does google interface with you directly or what?
2018-06-01T09:55:23Z makomo: oh wow!
2018-06-01T09:55:24Z jmercouris: did some student approach you to work on it?
2018-06-01T09:55:35Z makomo: beach: and who's the mentor? you?
2018-06-01T09:55:43Z White_Flame: #. is already disablable via *READ-EVAL*
2018-06-01T09:55:51Z makomo: White_Flame: yeah, true
2018-06-01T09:56:06Z beach: makomo: jmercouris No, CLISP is a GNU project, and the FSF is apparently pre-approved as a GSoC organization.
2018-06-01T09:56:06Z jmercouris: White_Flame: quick update, I've gotten 7 survey responses so far, collecting them is difficult
2018-06-01T09:56:26Z jmercouris: Ah, interesting, I did not know that
2018-06-01T09:56:28Z beach: makomo: As I understand it, the FSF is the mentor organization.
2018-06-01T09:56:40Z jmercouris: No wonder Clisp sucks
2018-06-01T09:56:51Z beach: jmercouris: karlosz suggested it himself and it was approved.
2018-06-01T09:56:54Z makomo: beach: ah i see. right, makes sense since it's a gsoc for clisp
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2018-06-01T09:57:11Z beach: jmercouris: What do you mean by "No wonder Clisp sucks"?
2018-06-01T09:57:18Z makomo: ^^^ i'm also interested lol :-)
2018-06-01T09:57:27Z jmercouris: I mean that any project sponsored by GNU seems to suffocate
2018-06-01T09:57:46Z beach: jmercouris: That is truly unfair.
2018-06-01T09:57:49Z makomo: i don't really see that
2018-06-01T09:57:57Z beach: jmercouris: It is also off topic.
2018-06-01T09:58:06Z jmercouris: Yeah, it is off-topic, indeed, sorry
2018-06-01T09:58:43Z makomo: beach: and about my fcge vs. restricting the reader question (in the context of the sandboxing issue)?
2018-06-01T09:58:44Z _death: personally, I :use :cl and sometimes packages that I have under my control, and use :import-from for others.. whether to do that or use package prefix depends on the interface exported, but usually I go for the former
2018-06-01T09:58:57Z beach: makomo: I don't think it will work.
2018-06-01T09:59:48Z beach: I think karlosz idea is brilliant.  It will improve CLISP, but it will also improve Cleavir, so everyone will benefit.  For instance, he is working on SSA conversion that we haven't bothered with very much so far.
2018-06-01T10:00:53Z jmercouris: beach: are you using Cleavir for linting?
2018-06-01T10:00:57Z makomo: i see
2018-06-01T10:01:04Z beach: jmercouris: No, not really.
2018-06-01T10:01:09Z makomo: beach: it won't work because restricting the reader doesn't handle all of the cases or?
2018-06-01T10:01:15Z jmercouris: beach: what is your main use case?
2018-06-01T10:01:17Z beach: makomo: Right.
2018-06-01T10:01:27Z beach: jmercouris: For Cleavir?
2018-06-01T10:01:30Z jmercouris: beach: yes
2018-06-01T10:01:34Z p_l: beach: damn, maybe it will dislodge some stupid in CLISP and breathe new life into it
2018-06-01T10:01:36Z beach: jmercouris: Compiling SICL.
2018-06-01T10:01:47Z jmercouris: That makes sense, I was going to guess that
2018-06-01T10:01:51Z beach: p_l: I hope so.
2018-06-01T10:01:58Z jmercouris: but better to ask than assume
2018-06-01T10:02:15Z p_l: beach: I once looked into some of the memory management code, I remember running away in horror
2018-06-01T10:02:38Z beach: Recall that a major reason for Cleavir is to attempt to cut down on the global maintenance burden of free Common Lisp systems.  If more free Common Lisp systems use the Cleavir compiler, then the hope is that there will be less implementation-specific code to maintain.
2018-06-01T10:02:47Z jmercouris: p_l: I'm curious, why would we want to renew another implementation?
2018-06-01T10:02:50Z beach: p_l: Oh, heh!
2018-06-01T10:03:09Z beach: jmercouris: Every implementation has its specific features.
2018-06-01T10:03:13Z p_l: jmercouris: multiple implementations that are kept compatible *strengthen* the community
2018-06-01T10:03:16Z p_l: IMO
2018-06-01T10:03:23Z jmercouris: are there any "killer" clisp specific features?
2018-06-01T10:03:25Z beach: jmercouris: CLISP has arbitrary-precision floats for intstance.
2018-06-01T10:03:27Z beach: instance.
2018-06-01T10:03:36Z makomo: beach: hmm, i'm trying to think of such an example -- maybe a macro constructing the symbol in a sneaky way or something? you could still take care of it by doing extra checks after reading, i.e. reading everything, macroexpanding it and then checking, perhaps?
2018-06-01T10:03:38Z p_l: if they aren't kept compatible, the opposite happens (look at Scheme)
2018-06-01T10:03:54Z beach: makomo: Very hard.
2018-06-01T10:03:59Z makomo: beach: but i think then you'll have to do codewalking, right? and that isn't really portable
2018-06-01T10:04:01Z p_l: if there's *no effort to provide compatible separate implementations*, bad shit happens (Python)
2018-06-01T10:04:04Z jmercouris: I guess that would be useful for mathematical and engineering purposes
2018-06-01T10:04:18Z p_l: jmercouris: also to keep code sane
2018-06-01T10:04:23Z beach: makomo: That, and you would still have a hard time.
2018-06-01T10:04:27Z jmercouris: p_l: what do you mean?
2018-06-01T10:04:38Z makomo: beach: hm, right
2018-06-01T10:04:53Z p_l: jmercouris: having a healthy ecosystem of multiple implementations gives more pressure to write portable code
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2018-06-01T10:05:01Z jmercouris: Oh, I see what you are saying
2018-06-01T10:05:14Z jmercouris: a sort of "capitalisic" view of the software eco system
2018-06-01T10:05:19Z beach: makomo: You would have to recognize attempts to do intern and fdefinition and funcall.
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2018-06-01T10:05:21Z jmercouris: s/capitalisic/capitalistic
2018-06-01T10:05:24Z makomo: jmercouris: there's also this :-) https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/FAQ.text
2018-06-01T10:05:26Z p_l: jmercouris: enough that you end up having companies that explicitly take different implementations for their specific quirks and write compatible code
2018-06-01T10:05:38Z makomo: beach: hm yeah, a *LOT* of sneaky stuff
2018-06-01T10:06:12Z p_l: jmercouris: for example ITA Software, iirc, used both SBCL and CCL, because CCL was much faster in compiling but SBCL had higher final performance, so CCL handled web code for example
2018-06-01T10:06:34Z jmercouris: p_l: wait a second, I thought you couldn't count on compiled code to work between different implementations?
2018-06-01T10:06:45Z p_l: jmercouris: separate processes
2018-06-01T10:06:52Z jmercouris: Okay I see
2018-06-01T10:06:57Z makomo: beach: i've noticed that you rarely include pdfs in your repositories, i.e. leaving it to the reader to compile the documents from latex. is this a valid observation or did i just stumble upon a few such repos?
2018-06-01T10:07:18Z beach: makomo: That's a correct observation.
2018-06-01T10:07:18Z makomo: i wanted to say that having already compiled pdfs would be much better imo
2018-06-01T10:07:44Z makomo: not sure what your rationale is, but it's much much easier to just click a pdf than to (1) clone the repo, (2) fetch the latex deps, (3) build the pdf
2018-06-01T10:07:46Z beach: makomo: For the same reason I don't have FASLs.
2018-06-01T10:07:48Z jmercouris: p_l: do you have a blog?
2018-06-01T10:07:56Z jmercouris: maybe you have written about this stuff?
2018-06-01T10:08:03Z p_l: not at the moment, unfortunately
2018-06-01T10:08:05Z beach: makomo: I often publish the PDFs on metamodular.com
2018-06-01T10:08:11Z makomo: beach: i thought that might be it, but in my mind the two aren't really comparable
2018-06-01T10:08:29Z jmercouris: makomo: or you could just read the latex files
2018-06-01T10:08:29Z beach: makomo: Which one are you looking for?
2018-06-01T10:08:36Z p_l: jmercouris: I've been trying to get one started, but it would be probably more DevOps oriented because it would exist to troll for contracts
2018-06-01T10:08:45Z makomo: they are both products of the build system, sure, but the pdfs are something that should be readily available imo
2018-06-01T10:08:47Z makomo: it's a huge convenience
2018-06-01T10:08:58Z makomo: beach: nothing in particular, but i noticed it just now when i went to see the SICL docs
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2018-06-01T10:09:35Z jmercouris: makomo: would you include compiled binaries within your git repository?
2018-06-01T10:09:41Z makomo: jmercouris: without the nice links and stuff? no way
2018-06-01T10:09:50Z makomo: jmercouris: i just said why i don't consider the two to be the same at all
2018-06-01T10:09:57Z p_l: jmercouris: ... that's a tricky question, sometimes you actually should include them...
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2018-06-01T10:10:14Z makomo: i agree with not including binaries such as fasls in your git repo, because they're implementation specific, blah blah
2018-06-01T10:10:24Z makomo: but a pdf is a pdf, a *portable* document format
2018-06-01T10:10:30Z jmercouris: I generally prefer not to include them
2018-06-01T10:10:45Z makomo: anyone can open read a pdf, no matter what system they're on
2018-06-01T10:10:51Z jmercouris: pdf is portable so long as adobe chooses to make a reader
2018-06-01T10:10:51Z p_l: makomo: better option would be to provide a quick and easy way to publish them from repo
2018-06-01T10:11:06Z makomo: browsing a git repo through the web interface and having the convenience of just clicking on a pdf is great IMO
2018-06-01T10:11:13Z jmercouris: you can reverse engineer pdf, but ultimately adobe controls the specification
2018-06-01T10:11:18Z jmercouris: latex is something else entirely
2018-06-01T10:11:24Z jmercouris: I agree with the decision not to include PDFs
2018-06-01T10:11:30Z makomo: jmercouris: they do, but that hasn't stopped people making a lot of pdf readers
2018-06-01T10:11:41Z p_l: jmercouris: there's PDF and PDF
2018-06-01T10:11:55Z p_l: for example, there's ISO standard for PDF
2018-06-01T10:12:00Z p_l: and surprise, it's actually followed
2018-06-01T10:12:04Z jmercouris: really? that I did not know!!
2018-06-01T10:12:15Z jmercouris: that is actually quite useful to know
2018-06-01T10:12:20Z p_l: jmercouris: it's crucial among other things for the print industry
2018-06-01T10:12:29Z jmercouris: I feel slightly better about using them then
2018-06-01T10:12:53Z p_l: the spec was free of charge since 1993, but in 2008 it was passed on fully to ISO
2018-06-01T10:13:00Z p_l: with patent license
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2018-06-01T10:13:26Z p_l: (meaning Adobe won't pursue patents it owns for PDF-related code)
2018-06-01T10:13:37Z makomo: p_l: what did you mean by "publish"?
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2018-06-01T10:15:42Z p_l: makomo: imagine a CI task that builds the docs and publishes it on a static site
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2018-06-01T10:16:42Z makomo: p_l: oh like that, yeah that's an option i guess, but it's much more work to do than just leaving a compiled pdf in the repo
2018-06-01T10:17:10Z xificurC: is mcclim "production ready"?
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2018-06-01T10:17:25Z makomo: beach: oh yeah, i actually wanted to read the ILC-2014 paper, do you have that one available somewhere?
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2018-06-01T10:20:39Z makomo: beach: i found a few small typos in the FAQ btw: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/FAQ.text#L145 "files so obtain", https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/FAQ.text#L182 "contribute should get"
2018-06-01T10:21:58Z beach: makomo: Sorry, lunch.  Hold on...
2018-06-01T10:22:14Z makomo: beach: take your time :-)
2018-06-01T10:22:36Z jmercouris: in France, lunch is a sacred time
2018-06-01T10:22:47Z beach: makomo: This one: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf ?
2018-06-01T10:23:01Z makomo: beach: is that the ILC-2014 talk?
2018-06-01T10:23:09Z beach: I think so.
2018-06-01T10:23:15Z makomo: i haven't actually opened the tex files to check the contents, heh, sorry
2018-06-01T10:23:24Z makomo: yeah, i have that one, never mind
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2018-06-01T10:23:34Z beach: makomo: It's the only paper I have written on first-class global environments.
2018-06-01T10:23:40Z makomo: mhm
2018-06-01T10:23:52Z beach: Thanks for the typo reports.  I'll fix.
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2018-06-01T10:25:17Z makomo: beach: instead of pushing the pdfs into the repo, you should perhaps set up an index of the pdfs you host on metamodular, organized by projects or similar
2018-06-01T10:26:59Z beach: makomo: Sure.  The problem is that there are SO many things that I should do.
2018-06-01T10:27:14Z makomo: SICL/Papers/ has a lot of good stuff and you can't read any of it without compiling it yourself. call me lazy, but i like being able to browse around a project's github repo and inspect the docs within my browser
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2018-06-01T10:27:39Z beach: makomo: I'll think about it.
2018-06-01T10:28:32Z makomo: beach: yeah, true, i understand that. :-( thanks for considering it
2018-06-01T10:28:49Z beach: Thank YOU for suggesting it.
2018-06-01T10:28:59Z makomo: :-)
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2018-06-01T10:36:45Z p_l: beach: what if someone set you up a system for this?
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2018-06-01T10:38:07Z White_Flame: given that one might describe something beneficial as "the bomb", does that mean you're someone who will set us up the bomb?
2018-06-01T10:38:08Z p_l: i.e. something that would build PDFs from your repos and publish them without any work from you?
2018-06-01T10:38:27Z makomo: p_l: i thought of the same thing, but where would it be published?
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2018-06-01T10:38:42Z makomo: would one have to pay for hosting or could one just use something like github pages?
2018-06-01T10:38:46Z p_l: makomo: for el-cheap version, in the same github account using github pages
2018-06-01T10:38:58Z makomo: right
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2018-06-01T10:39:27Z makomo: well, that would be quite nice actually
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2018-06-01T10:49:55Z beach: p_l: That would be fantastic!
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2018-06-01T10:57:24Z p_l: I'll take a look later over your repos, you keep them all on github or also in some other places?
2018-06-01T10:57:55Z p_l: Then we could set up some CI (circle-ci is free for open source projects, for example)
2018-06-01T10:58:21Z beach: They are all on GitHub.
2018-06-01T10:59:31Z beach: I wouldn't mind creating some structure on metamodular.com since I own it.
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2018-06-01T11:00:00Z beach: But I think I need help with the mechanisms of publishing after modifications to some documentation.
2018-06-01T11:00:20Z p_l: beach: ultimately it's a question of how to push the changed documents, i.e. how to provide access to the server
2018-06-01T11:00:33Z beach: I suppose so, yes.
2018-06-01T11:00:40Z p_l: with CI we can easily integrate that for example every commit to "master" will result in a build and push
2018-06-01T11:00:45Z p_l: or depend on tag
2018-06-01T11:00:56Z beach: Sounds good to me.
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2018-06-01T12:29:53Z xificurC: (asdf:load-system :foo) and therefore (require :foo) writes compilation output to *standard-output*. Giving :verbose nil to asdf:load-system still does it. Why isn't this information going into stderr?
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2018-06-01T12:39:22Z Xach: xificurC: I don't know definitively, but *standard-error* is specified to be for warnings and non-interactive error messages.
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2018-06-01T12:40:42Z xificurC: Xach: hi, this is the "; compiling ..." messages
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2018-06-01T12:41:10Z xificurC: when I do (let ((*standard-output* (make-broadcast-stream))) (require :foo)) the output goes away
2018-06-01T12:41:39Z kami: Hello #lisp
2018-06-01T12:42:06Z xificurC: hello
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2018-06-01T14:12:19Z slyrus1: scymtym: I see you setup the sharplispers/xpath repo. are you going to push your code to it?
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2018-06-01T14:27:05Z scymtym: slyrus1: yes, i'm planning to. i have a bug fix and few commits that get rid of ASDF warnings
2018-06-01T14:27:56Z scymtym: slyrus1: mostly like what i pushed to sharplispers/cxml
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2018-06-01T14:33:27Z Xach: bless you
2018-06-01T14:33:28Z slyrus1: scymtym: sounds good! I think I have a few minor fixes lying around that I'll dig up next week.
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2018-06-01T14:37:15Z scymtym: slyrus1: great. i'll try to push something tomorrow
2018-06-01T14:39:44Z Xach: scymtym: please let me know when i should switch what quicklisp uses
2018-06-01T14:40:48Z scymtym: Xach: sure. but since i just started, i would like to test the modifications a bit before they are rolled out to everyone
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2018-06-01T14:58:16Z rpg: Is there a standard anaphoric if/when out there? I know alexandria doesn't provide one.  I'd like one, but prefer to use one that's commonly use.
2018-06-01T14:58:21Z rpg: s/use/used/
2018-06-01T14:59:01Z Xach commonly avoids them
2018-06-01T14:59:57Z rpg: Xach: I usually do, too, but sometimes the let-binding followed by if seems like just too much
2018-06-01T15:00:00Z rpg: Xach: I usually do, too, but sometimes the let-binding followed by if seems like just too much >
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2018-06-01T15:02:45Z loke: rpg: ALEXANDRIA:IF-LET is there for you.
2018-06-01T15:02:50Z loke: or WHEN-LET
2018-06-01T15:03:39Z rpg: loke: Oh. I was just looking at the comments in alexandria, which disclaim intent to add anaphoric constructs.
2018-06-01T15:04:06Z sjl: alexandria's aren't anaphoric, you still provide a symbol name
2018-06-01T15:04:23Z sjl: it just handles the extra (when (and ...))) boilerplate for you
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2018-06-01T15:04:45Z loke: (when-let ((x (FOO))) (x-is-not-nil-here))
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2018-06-01T15:08:47Z rpg: sjl: Ah! Thanks -- so it's an improvement on anaphoric constructs in that way.s
2018-06-01T15:09:07Z sjl: Depends on whether you like anaphora, I guess :)
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2018-06-01T15:10:06Z sjl: I have my own (if|when)-let*? macros I made a while back that handle declarations properly, etc.  Maybe I should put them somewhere.
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2018-06-01T17:58:36Z phoe: I sometimes dream of (loop for foo = (bar) notwithstanding #'baz)
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2018-06-01T18:04:42Z sjl: phoe: if you use iterate you can implement that yourself :)
2018-06-01T18:06:28Z phoe: sjl: implementing this in Lisp sounds like a thesis for a SIGBOVIK paper
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2018-06-01T18:58:11Z tyrese: hey
2018-06-01T18:58:42Z tyrese: I have (loop for c across format do (if (eq c \#%) ..., how can I get the next character in the loop?
2018-06-01T18:59:02Z tyrese: inside the conditional though, not just iterate again
2018-06-01T18:59:04Z dlowe: include "as i from 0" and use that as an index
2018-06-01T18:59:08Z dlowe: into format
2018-06-01T18:59:58Z pjb: tyrese: characters may be not eq to themselves.  And their reader syntax is #\% not \#% which would be symbol, and therefore a free variable!
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2018-06-01T19:00:56Z pjb: if you want the next character, use as i from 1
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2018-06-01T19:01:33Z tyrese: so I can't say eq c \#%?
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2018-06-01T19:02:33Z jmercouris: what's the preferred data structure for working with images in Lisp?
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2018-06-01T19:02:50Z pjb: tyrese: no, you can't. use eql
2018-06-01T19:02:56Z pjb: never use eq.
2018-06-01T19:03:04Z jmercouris: when I say images, I mean bitmaps, pngs, etc
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2018-06-01T19:03:24Z tyrese: ok, where can I learn how to do as i from 1
2018-06-01T19:03:29Z pjb: jmercouris: 2D arrays of bits, of bytes, of colors.
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2018-06-01T19:03:36Z pjb: clhs loop
2018-06-01T19:03:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2018-06-01T19:03:39Z tyrese: i'm just messing around with lisp to learn a little bit more about it
2018-06-01T19:03:43Z pjb: and link to chapter 22.
2018-06-01T19:04:07Z jmercouris: pjb: not matrixes?
2018-06-01T19:04:21Z pjb: what are matrices?
2018-06-01T19:04:33Z jmercouris: pjb: when you say 2d array, you mean lists, right?
2018-06-01T19:04:36Z jmercouris: you don't really mean arrays?
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2018-06-01T19:05:05Z jmercouris: or do you mean make-array?
2018-06-01T19:05:09Z jmercouris: are there performance implications?
2018-06-01T19:05:13Z pjb: If I meant lists, I would have said lists.
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2018-06-01T19:05:29Z pjb: Yes, accessing pixels in a 2D array is O(1).
2018-06-01T19:05:43Z pjb: If you want it slower, like O(n*m), use lists of lists.
2018-06-01T19:06:18Z jmercouris: lol
2018-06-01T19:06:21Z pjb: Note that for some algorithms, you may prefer to use vectors instead of 2d arrays.
2018-06-01T19:06:55Z pjb: With a rowBytes parameters, and possibly a rectangle in the middle of the array.
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2018-06-01T19:07:58Z pjb: For example, the spacewar game is played on a torus, so it's advantageous to use a vector, so that when you draw the meteorites on the side of the screen, they are automatically drawn on the other side (one row below, but this is not perceptible in general).
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2018-06-01T19:11:04Z jmercouris: I have no idea what you are talking about honestly
2018-06-01T19:11:07Z jmercouris: spacwar game?
2018-06-01T19:11:14Z jmercouris: s/spacwar/spacewar
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2018-06-01T19:13:32Z pjb: jmercouris: you need to learn some CS culture! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eePWlLKm_Bg
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2018-06-01T19:14:29Z pjb: Of course, the original was programmed on a vectorial screen, so it was different, but the following ones that were programmed on raster screens used that trick.
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2018-06-01T19:15:32Z pjb: That said, on NeXTSTEP, it was in 3D ! :-)
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2018-06-01T19:15:52Z pjb: Maelstrom on Macintosh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stxgF2fBq9c
2018-06-01T19:16:13Z pjb: it used clipping so you had quasi-invisible asteroids or spaceships on the borders…
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2018-06-01T19:17:38Z jmercouris: interesting
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2018-06-01T19:17:54Z jmercouris: well, learn something new every day
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2018-06-01T19:35:42Z pjb: I guess we could start writing books and teaching courses of computing history…
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2018-06-01T19:54:58Z p_l: pjb: I did a presentation on basics of design of operating system with a historical view back in High School, specifically as teaching material
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2018-06-01T20:16:02Z rpg: Quick question: the gitlab docs say that it's possible to do a squash merge to accept a merge request.  But on cl.net I don't see this option.  Anyone know how to use it?  Or is this feature unavailable on cl.net?
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2018-06-01T20:50:04Z aeth: So in some quick tests, typep on a member type can be really fast in SBCL.
2018-06-01T20:50:33Z Bike: it drops to a bunch of eql tests, i think
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2018-06-01T20:51:23Z aeth: member typep is faster than find in a sequence, at least for characters (where the sequence is a string) and unlike the latter it can be entirely resolved at compile time (find will iterate even if everything's constant)
2018-06-01T20:51:37Z aeth: about 10x faster iirc
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2018-06-01T21:54:16Z dacoda: Hello!
2018-06-01T21:54:27Z dacoda: I had a question about Common Lisp
2018-06-01T21:54:51Z dacoda: I was wondering if it was possible to create an array displaced to another array of a different type
2018-06-01T21:55:15Z dacoda: For example, if I have one array of '(unsigned-byte 8) and I wanted to displace another array of '(unsigned-byte 16), is this possible?
2018-06-01T21:55:28Z dacoda: Otherwise, how can I re-use the data of the first array while interpreting it as 16-bit integers?
2018-06-01T21:56:46Z MichaelRaskin: I wouldn't expect this to work well, given that many implementations «tag» the data to keep track of types
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2018-06-01T21:57:15Z MichaelRaskin: I guess with FFI you can achieve unsafe aliasing
2018-06-01T21:57:43Z dacoda: Hahahaha, that would be an interesting way around it! Just have a C function that takes in a uint8_t buffer and casts it to a uint16_t buffer, eh?
2018-06-01T21:58:09Z dacoda: I'm using it for a little toy script, and if that's the solution, I might as well write it in C
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2018-06-01T21:58:29Z MichaelRaskin: Well, FFI has functions for direct manipulation of foreign memory, no need for the C function.
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2018-06-01T21:58:42Z dacoda: Oh, no way! That would be awesome
2018-06-01T21:59:22Z dacoda: We talking the CFFI package or something else?
2018-06-01T21:59:50Z MichaelRaskin: Note that you give up any and all Common Lisp safety when you do foreign memory manipulations by hand…
2018-06-01T22:00:08Z MichaelRaskin: CFFI is a good wrapper around the native FFI implementations, yes
2018-06-01T22:00:13Z dacoda: Yes, that's acceptable, for this particular use case I'm rather sure about the data
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2018-06-01T22:00:19Z dacoda: Okay, I'm gonna take a look into that :D
2018-06-01T22:00:24Z aeth: You can also abuse inline assembly if you don't want to be portable.
2018-06-01T22:00:30Z aeth: CFFI is probably easier.
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2018-06-01T22:01:05Z MichaelRaskin: subsections 7.2/7.3 in CFFI manual
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2018-06-01T22:09:21Z dacoda: Hahahaha!
2018-06-01T22:09:22Z dacoda: How funny
2018-06-01T22:09:23Z dacoda: This works
2018-06-01T22:09:28Z dacoda: (let ((original (make-array 2 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :initial-contents '(255 0))))
2018-06-01T22:09:28Z dacoda:   (sb-sys:with-pinned-objects (original)
2018-06-01T22:09:28Z dacoda:       (cffi:convert-from-foreign (sb-sys:vector-sap original) '(:array :uint16 1))))
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2018-06-01T22:11:01Z dacoda: Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, I'm going to mess around with this nonsense and see how it goes
2018-06-01T22:11:18Z dacoda: Ahhh, I wonder if the result of the convert-from-foreign is a new array or the same...
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2018-06-01T22:14:31Z aeth: dacoda: https://github.com/sionescu/static-vectors/
2018-06-01T22:14:41Z aeth: Otherwise the GC might move things around
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2018-06-01T22:17:00Z aeth: ah, I see, with-pinned-objects should behave similarly (but it isn't used in static-vectors)
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2018-06-01T22:34:45Z dacoda: Ahhh, in any case
2018-06-01T22:34:49Z dacoda: That was interesting
2018-06-01T22:34:53Z dacoda: Thanks a lot for your help :D
2018-06-01T22:34:57Z dacoda: Have a good rest of your day :)
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2018-06-01T22:45:24Z aeth: You should probably use static-vectors because it's portable, but... I'm not sure if its implementation method in SBCL is better than yours and what the various drawbacks are.
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2018-06-02T06:12:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-02T06:13:03Z beardio: *morning*
2018-06-02T06:13:26Z phoe: heyyyy
2018-06-02T06:13:56Z beach: beardio: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-06-02T06:14:11Z beardio: yeppers
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2018-06-02T06:14:22Z beach: beardio: What brings you to #lisp?
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2018-06-02T06:18:02Z beardio: I use Emacs as an editor, started teaching myself lisp, bought ANSI common lisp and Land of Lisp. Came here to learn, while I work thru the exercises.
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2018-06-02T06:18:16Z beach: Great!  Welcome!
2018-06-02T06:18:41Z beardio: thank you
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2018-06-02T08:14:39Z makomo: i need some advice regarding interpreter design. i have a "component" (concept of the object language, the one i'm interpreting) which stores variables within it. a component has multiple "processes" which contain code to be executed
2018-06-02T08:15:08Z makomo: i.e. "component" just has a hash table storing pairs (variable-name, variable-value)
2018-06-02T08:15:46Z makomo: i would like to be able to use arbitrary lisp expressions as arguments for certain instructions within the code of a process
2018-06-02T08:15:58Z makomo: and these expressions might contain references to these variables
2018-06-02T08:16:35Z makomo: putting all of the safety issues aside for a moment, what's the best way to evaluate this expression (which can be an arbitrarily complex lisp expression), but within a context where the variables within the component are bound
2018-06-02T08:17:40Z makomo: so for example, say we have a component with the variable a = 1 and we're executing the instruction '(format t "~a" (sqrt a)) within a process of this component
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2018-06-02T08:18:05Z makomo: i disect the instruction, get to the argument '(sqrt a) and somehow EVAL this but within such a context so that a is bound to 1
2018-06-02T08:18:25Z phoe: EVAL uses a null lexical environment
2018-06-02T08:18:46Z makomo: right, which is why for a prototype i generated code around this expression of mine
2018-06-02T08:18:50Z phoe: I think your best bet is to construct an anonymous function form (lambda () (let (...) ...))
2018-06-02T08:18:52Z makomo: i.e. just a let with bound values
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2018-06-02T08:18:59Z phoe: then COMPILE and FUNCALL it
2018-06-02T08:19:22Z phoe: this gives you lexical variables which is what you seemingly need
2018-06-02T08:19:26Z makomo: what i did was (eval `(let (,@bindings) ,expr))
2018-06-02T08:19:41Z makomo: this looks like a hack, but why exactly is this "wrong"?
2018-06-02T08:19:46Z phoe: hm
2018-06-02T08:19:50Z makomo: i.e. why would i prefer a lambda and COMPILE
2018-06-02T08:20:00Z makomo: is it really a hack?
2018-06-02T08:20:08Z phoe: not really a hack since you need it anyway
2018-06-02T08:20:15Z phoe: some kind of runtime evaluation
2018-06-02T08:20:18Z makomo: yeah, that's what i'm thinking too. there's no way to get around it
2018-06-02T08:20:21Z makomo: exactly
2018-06-02T08:21:46Z phoe: EVAL should work just as well in that case
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2018-06-02T08:28:59Z nirved: makomo: you might look at Let Over Lambda, https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap2.html
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2018-06-02T08:31:06Z makomo: nirved: i've read lots of LoL, but i don't think that chapter covers what i asked
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2018-06-02T08:31:58Z phoe: you basically need to be able to generate code at runtime
2018-06-02T08:32:05Z phoe: and for this, either COMPILE or EVAL is needed
2018-06-02T08:32:40Z makomo: yeah, exactly
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2018-06-02T08:33:21Z makomo: i just thought there might be a "prettier" way, but then again i'm not sure why i feel so wrong about it
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2018-06-02T08:35:31Z pjb: In general code changes less often than data, so a compiled function is usually more efficient.
2018-06-02T08:36:09Z pjb: If you consider translating to compiled functions, then it may be more efficient to avoid the hash-table for storing the component fields.
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2018-06-02T08:36:30Z pjb: Also consider that if you have less then 5 fields (or 35 in clisp), a a-list is faster than a hash-table!
2018-06-02T08:36:33Z makomo: pjb: in this case i'm generating code from data though. upon every evaluation i generate the LET that binds the symbols to their current values
2018-06-02T08:36:43Z makomo: or did i misunderstand
2018-06-02T08:37:01Z makomo: pjb: oh so you mean, if i consider compiling instead of interpreting?
2018-06-02T08:37:10Z pjb: That's the point. with eval you have to generate a new let form.  But if the body doesn't change, it's not efficient.
2018-06-02T08:37:32Z pjb: Well, we already discussed it, there's no clear-cut distinction between interpretation and compilation.
2018-06-02T08:37:45Z makomo: yup, i see what you meant. so basically convert the process' code into a function?
2018-06-02T08:37:53Z pjb: But in a way, yes, we could say that I'd nudge you toward a transpiler. It's usually easier than a pure interpreter.
2018-06-02T08:37:57Z pjb: Yes.
2018-06-02T08:38:15Z makomo: i usually hear the opposite, i.e. that an interpreter is easier
2018-06-02T08:38:29Z pjb: For example, perhaps you could implement your components as clos objects.
2018-06-02T08:38:30Z makomo: maybe that goes just for the first few steps and after that it just becomes a pain because of "issues" like the above?
2018-06-02T08:38:36Z makomo: pjb: i was thinking of that!
2018-06-02T08:38:41Z pjb: With the MOP, you can do it dynamically, adding/removing slots at run-time.
2018-06-02T08:38:47Z makomo: yes! :D
2018-06-02T08:38:52Z makomo: that would be beautiful
2018-06-02T08:39:07Z pjb: Then the code generated would just use with-slots…
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2018-06-02T08:39:29Z makomo: right now i have 2 classes, one describes the component's class, the other describes the instance of this class
2018-06-02T08:39:34Z pjb: Yes.
2018-06-02T08:40:05Z makomo: glad to know i'm not alone in my thinking
2018-06-02T08:40:09Z makomo: ok, sounds nice
2018-06-02T08:40:36Z pjb: I guess it's time for you to read The Art of the Meta Object Protocol. https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/art-metaobject-protocol
2018-06-02T08:40:43Z makomo: i've started reading it :-)
2018-06-02T08:40:48Z pjb: Good.
2018-06-02T08:40:58Z makomo: i've always wondered about the circularities that arise
2018-06-02T08:41:06Z makomo: i jumped straight to appendix C :-)
2018-06-02T08:41:14Z makomo: but i have yet to understand it fully
2018-06-02T08:42:30Z makomo: pjb: although, i wouldn't need ability to add/remove slots at runtime in my case, i think. i would convert the component's description into a DEFCLASS and then instantiate a component by using MAKE-INSTANCE
2018-06-02T08:42:36Z makomo: the ability*
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2018-06-02T08:43:22Z pjb: Well, it depends if your "interpreter" is interactive or not, and whether it's possible to redefine the components.
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2018-06-02T08:44:35Z makomo: true, but in that case, wouldn't it just reeval the DEFCLASS and redefine the class? i can't redefine components within a simulation so there's no danger of having to update objects of the old class
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2018-06-02T08:45:39Z makomo: i.e. once the simulation ends, no instances of this class are stored anywhere anymore. redefining the class at that point should be easy right?
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2018-06-02T08:53:08Z makomo: pjb: one thing that's problematic and that's stopping me from implementing a compiler is that these processes are like little threads which use cooperative scheduling
2018-06-02T08:53:24Z makomo: if i were to represent a process' code as a lisp function, how would i suspend and later on resume the function
2018-06-02T08:53:35Z makomo: i would need something like coroutines but that doesn't exist within lisp (there are libraries though) :^(
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2018-06-02T08:53:57Z makomo: within the interpreter, i keep an "instruction pointer" into the list of the process' instructions
2018-06-02T08:54:31Z makomo: any advice regarding that?
2018-06-02T08:54:42Z pjb: makomo: the lisp function doesn't need to match the structure and control flow of your source function.
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2018-06-02T08:55:15Z makomo: that's true, i could generate some ifs or use a tagbody to jump to the point where i was suspended
2018-06-02T08:55:18Z pjb: If you use cooperating scheduling, then you would generate the lisp code in such a way that the function would exit each time it wants to relinquish the cpu.
2018-06-02T08:55:30Z makomo: pjb: and what about resuming?
2018-06-02T08:55:48Z makomo: something like what i said above, with a tagbody?
2018-06-02T08:55:49Z pjb: There's an example of such a transformation in arnesi. https://common-lisp.net/project/bese/docs/arnesi/html/Automatically_Converting_a_Subset_of_Common_Lisp_to_CPS.html
2018-06-02T08:56:21Z pjb: Yes. You would enter the function multiple times.  It can keep track of the state in a closure.
2018-06-02T08:56:40Z pjb: Perhaps you could directly use arnesi to deal with those details.
2018-06-02T08:57:31Z makomo: mhm. it would be interesting to compare the two in performance
2018-06-02T08:58:03Z pjb: On the other hand, in this situation, I would consider generating lower level code to a virtual machine.
2018-06-02T09:00:23Z makomo: hm why? then i'm back to writing a VM which i wanted to avoid. i'm rewriting a C++ project, and i want to take advantage of being able to transform the component models into lisp and compile that
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2018-06-02T09:00:31Z makomo: instead of compiling into some bytecode and implementing my own VM
2018-06-02T09:00:48Z makomo: i could probably do both and compare though, but i'm interested in why you would use a VM
2018-06-02T09:02:11Z pjb: makomo: notice that you can also use threads in CL.
2018-06-02T09:02:33Z pjb: Are you in a situation where you have a lot of coroutines?
2018-06-02T09:03:04Z makomo: well, the models aren't that big usually, i.e. the number of processes is usually less than, say, 20
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2018-06-02T09:03:31Z pjb: I find it easier to implement the semantics in a VM when the control flow is very different.  You can run the VM step by step whenever you want, and do other things in between two steps.
2018-06-02T09:03:43Z pjb: makomo: with that number of coroutines, you can easily map them to threads.
2018-06-02T09:04:05Z makomo: hm, that's an interesting idea
2018-06-02T09:04:16Z pjb: Then either synchronize them to avoid parallelism, or let them lose to benefit from multi-core.
2018-06-02T09:04:27Z pjb: (but coroutines may assume exclusion).
2018-06-02T09:05:03Z makomo: what does "exclusion" mean in this context?
2018-06-02T09:05:17Z makomo: mutual exclusion?
2018-06-02T09:05:25Z pjb: yes.
2018-06-02T09:05:27Z makomo: mhm
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2018-06-02T09:06:32Z pjb: If you have i:=i+1 in one coroutine and i:=i-1 in the other, coroutines knowing they can't run at the same time, since they're scheduling cooperatively, you don't have any problem. But if you translate it to threads running on multicore, then you can have inconsistents updates of i.
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2018-06-02T09:06:46Z makomo: yup
2018-06-02T09:06:53Z pjb: Where one thread computes i+1, the other i-1, and one of the two gets to update last.
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2018-06-02T09:07:18Z pjb: In that case, you want to synchronize the threads so only one of them runs at a given time.
2018-06-02T09:07:31Z pjb: This is easy to do in your implementation of yield.
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2018-06-02T09:08:06Z pjb: The advantage of using threads still, is that you have a stack and a PC for each one of them.
2018-06-02T09:08:14Z makomo: exactly, i was about to say the same thing
2018-06-02T09:08:19Z makomo: hm very cool
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2018-06-02T09:10:30Z makomo: so there are 3 options, (1) a coroutines library, (2) threads and (3) do it manually by generating appropriate code and keeping track of state, basically replicating what (1) does for me
2018-06-02T09:10:54Z pjb: Yep.
2018-06-02T09:12:07Z makomo: and since this gets compiled into lisp, any ideas on what (and how) debugging facilities to provide
2018-06-02T09:12:17Z pjb: There's cl-cont too, it may suit  you better than arnesi.
2018-06-02T09:12:37Z makomo: i've seen both before but never used them. i'll have to give it a go
2018-06-02T09:12:47Z pjb: http://quickdocs.org/cl-cont/
2018-06-02T09:13:05Z pjb: ah, and it's used by cl-coroutine :-)
2018-06-02T09:13:11Z makomo: yup :-)
2018-06-02T09:13:24Z pjb: This is probably the simpliest option for you http://quickdocs.org/cl-coroutine/
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2018-06-02T09:15:39Z makomo: on the topic of debugging -- providing stepping functionality to execute every coroutine until it yields would be trivial
2018-06-02T09:16:09Z makomo: however, providing debugging functionality to step over individual instructions within a process (i.e. on just on "yield boundaries") would take some effort and would require special support from the compiler right?
2018-06-02T09:16:22Z makomo: i.e. not just on "yield boundaries"*
2018-06-02T09:16:35Z makomo: the compiler in this case being my component compiler
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2018-06-02T09:17:04Z makomo: it would have to add special code to do a "special yield" after every instruction so that we can inspect the component's state and what not
2018-06-02T09:17:55Z makomo: these yields wouldn't be used to let another coroutine run, they would just pause the execution of the current coroutine for debugging purposes
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2018-06-02T09:21:01Z pjb: For debugging, you can "instrument" the generated code. Ie. insert debugging code.
2018-06-02T09:21:29Z pjb: This is what I do in cl-stepper, in that case, by shadowing and re-implementing the standard special operators or main macros.
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2018-06-02T09:22:09Z pjb: Indeed, those would be kinds of yields. yield-to-debugger/tracer
2018-06-02T09:22:46Z makomo: great!
2018-06-02T09:23:27Z makomo: pjb: thanks a lot for the discussion and the helpful comments :-)
2018-06-02T09:24:07Z pjb: you're welcome!
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2018-06-02T09:39:25Z beach: Currently, I use the term "code object" for an object that contains native instructions to be executed, but also information for the debugger and the garbage collector such as a mapping from values of the program counter to a register map, to source location, to live variables and where they are located, etc.  But I am not happy with the term "code object", so I am looking for a shorter name.  Any suggestions?
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2018-06-02T09:40:24Z Bike: "routine"? but really it seems fine to me.
2018-06-02T09:41:31Z beach: OK.
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2018-06-02T09:42:29Z beach: Several functions can share the same code object, so that a single code object is created as the result of loading a FASL file.
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2018-06-02T09:47:50Z beach: I guess it's the word "object" that I don't like.  Perhaps "code descriptor" instead?
2018-06-02T09:48:05Z Bike: it's not just a descriptor, is it? it has the actual instructions
2018-06-02T09:48:19Z beach: It does, yes.
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2018-06-02T09:51:13Z beach: OK, I'll keep "code object" for now.
2018-06-02T09:51:43Z Bike: i think sbcl uses the same term for a similar thing
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2018-06-02T09:56:52Z _death: pile-of-code, food-for-machine-thought, machbeef, soylent-biege.. or just program
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2018-06-02T10:06:30Z phoe: bobby
2018-06-02T10:06:37Z phoe: block of bulked binary ynstructions
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2018-06-02T11:03:10Z fiveop: When I run slime and start to edit a common lisp file, the editor freezes in certain situations with the message "error in process filter: progn: Wrong number of arguments: (0 . 1), 2". It does not happen before I run M-x slime .
2018-06-02T11:03:39Z fiveop: What did I update, but shouldn't have? Or what should I update that I did not?
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2018-06-02T11:04:08Z beach: I have seen more reports of new problems with recent Emacs and SLIME.
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2018-06-02T11:04:17Z beach: Don't know what to do about it, though.
2018-06-02T11:04:42Z _death: (setq debug-on-error t) and debug..
2018-06-02T11:04:50Z fiveop: thanks
2018-06-02T11:05:15Z fiveop: I googled it and it seems to happen with other emacs packages as well. But in my case slime seems to be the culprit
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2018-06-02T11:14:39Z fiveop: Found it "http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/lisp?h=emacs-26&id=7ef0b5f611c2d56ac2edb8de287190f04c4b8f32"
2018-06-02T11:14:56Z fiveop: * lisp/emacs-lisp/eldoc.el (eldoc-message): Simplify. Don't use ARGS because no callers pass them. Discussed in bug#27230.
2018-06-02T11:15:01Z fiveop: Well, slime does ;)
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2018-06-02T11:16:28Z fiveop: did
2018-06-02T11:18:19Z _death: yeah, I remember that one.. I've a few patches as well.. https://github.com/death/slime
2018-06-02T11:18:20Z fiveop: 2.21 released yesterday fixed it
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2018-06-02T11:18:51Z fiveop: Now that I figured it out, I dare ask the question. How do I get quicklisp to update my slime?
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2018-06-02T11:19:44Z _death: it will only get updated in the next quicklisp release
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2018-06-02T11:20:50Z _death: personally I use git repos when available and quicklisp for the rest
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2018-06-02T11:23:13Z nirved: fiveop: put a new slime in local-projects
2018-06-02T11:25:04Z fiveop: just git clone it?
2018-06-02T11:26:04Z nirved: iirc cloning should do it
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2018-06-02T11:36:41Z fiveop: Was not enough. I just fixed the three broken functions in my .emacs for now. Quick and dirty, till quicklisp updates slime.
2018-06-02T11:36:44Z fiveop: thanks
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2018-06-02T15:17:26Z drmeister: Is there a way to get a lambda list for a function in a portable way?
2018-06-02T15:18:15Z scymtym: clhs function-lambda-expression
2018-06-02T15:18:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fn_lam.htm
2018-06-02T15:18:30Z scymtym: but it has very weak guarantees
2018-06-02T15:18:49Z drmeister: So weak that it doesn't return anything useful in sbcl or clasp.
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2018-06-02T15:20:30Z drmeister: I need a trivial-function-lambda-list
2018-06-02T15:20:38Z beach: drmeister: The standard can't require this function to always return the lambda expression of a function.
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2018-06-02T15:21:09Z beach: drmeister: The commercial Common Lisp vendors would be very unhappy if anyone could get to the source code of their trade secrets.
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2018-06-02T15:21:40Z drmeister: Hang them.
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2018-06-02T15:26:51Z drmeister: Let's say I want to use sb-introspect:function-lambda-list  in sbcl
2018-06-02T15:27:01Z drmeister: It requires that I first (require :sb-introspect)
2018-06-02T15:27:39Z drmeister: Does it work to add sb-introspect as a dependency in an defsystem?
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2018-06-02T15:29:09Z scymtym: that should work since contribs are always loaded via ASDF behind the scenes
2018-06-02T15:29:12Z random9899: :depends-on #+sbcl #:sb-introspect..... ?
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2018-06-02T15:49:50Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/2GgW3ap.png
2018-06-02T15:50:07Z drmeister: Jupyter lab running with sbcl - demonstrating Tab completion
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2018-06-02T15:51:45Z drmeister: And Shift-Tab inspection...
2018-06-02T15:51:46Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/P5x8hR4.png
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2018-06-02T16:03:34Z ZigPaw: drmeister: Looks sleek. How to get my hands on jupyter lab with sbcl kernel? Is there a tutorial/howto somewhere?
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2018-06-02T16:05:06Z p_l: drmeister: looks amazing :)
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2018-06-02T16:10:24Z drmeister: https://github.com/fredokun/cl-jupyter
2018-06-02T16:10:37Z drmeister: That is the original cl-jupyter by Fredrick Peschanski
2018-06-02T16:10:49Z drmeister: We have been working on it for a year and added jupyter widgets support.
2018-06-02T16:11:28Z drmeister: I am submitting a pull request to Fredrick with our changes to cl-jupyter that add hooks for jupyter widgets, Tab completion and Shift-Tab completion today.
2018-06-02T16:11:59Z drmeister: So soon you should be able to get it from the URL above and from github.com/clasp-developers/cl-jupyter-widgets
2018-06-02T16:12:19Z drmeister: Give it another week and this should be in place.
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2018-06-02T16:18:53Z drmeister: We are also adding widgets for molecular visualization and plotting.
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2018-06-02T16:37:09Z random9899: what does GC invariant lost mean ?
2018-06-02T16:37:31Z beach: random9899: That your implementation has a defect.
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2018-06-02T16:49:50Z p_l: or that someone set it a bomb (likely a broken foreign library scribbled over something)
2018-06-02T16:53:53Z random9899: http://dpaste.com/0ZKF6Y3
2018-06-02T16:54:06Z random9899: some futex error or some such
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2018-06-02T17:44:49Z random9899: i cleared the .cache/common-lisp and now everything works again
2018-06-02T17:44:49Z random9899: sorry
2018-06-02T17:44:49Z random9899: i suppose it was some fasl glitch
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2018-06-02T18:27:15Z phoe: drmeister: this is wonderful
2018-06-02T18:27:49Z phoe: drmeister: also
2018-06-02T18:27:54Z phoe: https://github.com/Shinmera/trivial-arguments
2018-06-02T18:28:07Z phoe: 17:19 < drmeister> I need a trivial-function-lambda-list
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2018-06-02T18:56:08Z drmeister: phoe: Thank you - we will switch to that.
2018-06-02T18:58:32Z phoe: drmeister: the API is trivial (pun indented) enough for you to be able to make the switch painlessly.
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2018-06-02T20:04:48Z drmeister: What does it take to get quicklisp/asdf to find a system in the ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/  directory?
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2018-06-02T20:05:37Z drmeister: I'm rearranging things and I always just put the directory like foo  in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo   and define a ~/quicklisp/local-projects/foo/foo.asd   file.
2018-06-02T20:05:56Z drmeister: I'm doing that now and I keep getting this:
2018-06-02T20:05:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jBX5c7bL/
2018-06-02T20:06:20Z drmeister: Half an hour later I'm burning daylight and this stupid thing won't recognize the system file.
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2018-06-02T20:07:06Z drmeister: This is the cl-jupyter-widgets.asd file...
2018-06-02T20:07:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XGSKUB1K/
2018-06-02T20:07:11Z drmeister: WTH?
2018-06-02T20:09:45Z drmeister: I'm rearranging our code to make it more compatible with expectations.
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2018-06-02T20:10:33Z drmeister: If any kind soul could take a look at this and tell me what obvious thing I'm missing - I'd greatly appreciate it.
2018-06-02T20:10:42Z drmeister: I'm happy to provide any additional info.
2018-06-02T20:10:42Z rpg: drmeister: Can you pass :verbose to quickload and see if that provides any more assistance?
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2018-06-02T20:10:57Z drmeister: Thank you - incoming...
2018-06-02T20:11:06Z random9899: drmeister: http://dpaste.com/0PZR4V5
2018-06-02T20:12:28Z drmeister: No additional info I'm afraid...
2018-06-02T20:12:29Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fjJZuVWM/
2018-06-02T20:12:32Z rpg: drmeister: If all of the files are in source, then the :pathname option should be given to the system, rather than put in :components.
2018-06-02T20:13:10Z drmeister: I'll give that a try.
2018-06-02T20:13:15Z drmeister: random9899: What was that for?
2018-06-02T20:13:59Z rpg: Just to confirm: the asd file is in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/ and lisp files are under ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/src/
2018-06-02T20:14:01Z rpg: right?
2018-06-02T20:14:20Z drmeister: rpg: Yes - that is what I'm trying at the moment.
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2018-06-02T20:15:00Z drmeister: ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/cl-jupyter-widgets.asd and    ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/src/*  <--- all source files.
2018-06-02T20:15:06Z rpg: OK, my fix is likely necessary, but not sufficient... ASDF wouldn't have found the source files, but that's a later problem than it not being able to find the defsystem.
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2018-06-02T20:15:24Z rpg: drmeister: There aren't any logical pathnames involved, are there?
2018-06-02T20:15:29Z drmeister: Same error when I move :pathname "src" into the defsystem and out of :components
2018-06-02T20:15:35Z drmeister: Here is the directory structure...
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2018-06-02T20:15:48Z rpg: drmeister: Right -- that's a problem, but it isn't your problem (yet).
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2018-06-02T20:16:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/w5nxssi3/
2018-06-02T20:16:28Z drmeister: No, there are no logical pathnames involved.
2018-06-02T20:16:48Z drmeister: Here is the current cl-jupyter-widgets.asd file...
2018-06-02T20:16:56Z random9899: drmeister: that was for initializing asdf for local-projects
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2018-06-02T20:16:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/uMHdabkI/
2018-06-02T20:17:20Z drmeister: random:  Doesn't quicklisp do that automagically for ~/quicklisp/local-projects?
2018-06-02T20:17:22Z rpg: drmeister: I'm pretty sure that this is not a problem with your .asd file.
2018-06-02T20:17:58Z random9899: drmeister: and in my quicklisp there were no output-translation from local-projects to .cache/common lisp either....
2018-06-02T20:18:50Z rpg: drmeister: Have you restarted lisp after installing this system? The reason I ask is that I believe that ASDF eagerly searches for system definitions.  But.... I thought it offered a continue restart that would re-initialize. I'm afraid I don't know much about how the Quicklisp wrapper for ASDF works.
2018-06-02T20:18:55Z drmeister: random9899: Hmmm, I'll be surprised - I have many local-projects directories because clasp has many updated asdf/quicklisp systems that contain implementation specific changes.  They all "just work".
2018-06-02T20:18:59Z drmeister: How annoying
2018-06-02T20:19:15Z random9899: hmmm, that's strange then
2018-06-02T20:19:28Z drmeister: rpg: I've been shutting clasp down and starting it up with every change I make.
2018-06-02T20:19:36Z drmeister: I'm going to wipe out the cache and try again.
2018-06-02T20:20:23Z skidd0: newbie question: I'm trying to play with a quicklisp package in slime. I've compiled the (ql:quickload "package") and then tried to compile an example (defun ...) but the slime repl says that non of the example's functions are defined (the functions that should be compiled from the "package"). Am I doing this wrong?
2018-06-02T20:20:49Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-06-02T20:20:57Z random9899: yes
2018-06-02T20:21:28Z random9899: skidd0: what did you do exactly ?
2018-06-02T20:21:55Z skidd0: looking at Croatoan
2018-06-02T20:22:10Z skidd0: https://www.cliki.net/croatoan
2018-06-02T20:22:14Z skidd0: that example there
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2018-06-02T20:22:58Z drmeister: If I do this first...     (asdf:load-asd "/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/cl-jupyter-widgets.asd")
2018-06-02T20:22:58Z random9899: skidd0: so you just loaded all and it does not work ?
2018-06-02T20:23:08Z drmeister: Then I can (ql:quickload "cl-jupyter-widgets")
2018-06-02T20:23:15Z rpg: drmeister: Maybe try (quicklisp-client::list-local-systems)
2018-06-02T20:23:37Z rpg: drmeister: I'm pretty sure that means that the problem is in quicklisp's search, and not in ASDF's search.
2018-06-02T20:23:56Z skidd0: random9899: I did a (ql:quickload :croatoan)
2018-06-02T20:24:09Z skidd0: then a used slime to compile the example function
2018-06-02T20:24:13Z random9899: and then copy-pasted the example defun into your repl i assume
2018-06-02T20:24:14Z skidd0: and the repl got mad
2018-06-02T20:24:24Z skidd0: not straight into the repl, no
2018-06-02T20:24:29Z skidd0: pasted into a file
2018-06-02T20:24:37Z skidd0: then slime compiled that to the repl
2018-06-02T20:24:41Z skidd0: which spat back the errors
2018-06-02T20:24:46Z skidd0: saying nothing was defined
2018-06-02T20:24:48Z random9899: skidd0: you have to be in the package :croatoan too
2018-06-02T20:24:55Z skidd0: oh
2018-06-02T20:25:01Z rpg: drmeister: sorry LIST-LOCAL-PROJECTS
2018-06-02T20:25:03Z skidd0: so that's the (:in :croatoan)>
2018-06-02T20:25:05Z skidd0: ?
2018-06-02T20:25:14Z skidd0: very new to lisp, sorry
2018-06-02T20:25:59Z random9899: skidd0: do (in-package :croatoan) in a fresh repl  and then copy-paste your example again
2018-06-02T20:26:14Z skidd0: do i need to also quickload?
2018-06-02T20:26:19Z random9899: skidd0: yes
2018-06-02T20:26:20Z skidd0: or does in-package handle that
2018-06-02T20:26:21Z skidd0: ah
2018-06-02T20:26:34Z rpg: drmeister: I think you could also try  quicklisp-client::write-asdf-manifest-file "/tmp/manifest.txt" and see what system files QL knows of.
2018-06-02T20:26:37Z random9899: you load it, then switch to that package in order to be able to use it's symbols
2018-06-02T20:26:58Z random9899: otherwise if you do your example from top-level then you have to change most of the symbols to croatoan::blah
2018-06-02T20:27:08Z random9899: and you have to know which ones exactly
2018-06-02T20:27:41Z White_Flame: if you do (use-package :croatoan), then that will import all public symbols into CL-USER for you to use, too
2018-06-02T20:27:44Z skidd0: i just got a croatoan does not designate any package
2018-06-02T20:27:58Z random9899: cause not every symbol comes from croatoan some are just cl, it might also use other packages so other namespaces maybe involved
2018-06-02T20:28:10Z skidd0: i see
2018-06-02T20:30:19Z rpg: drmeister: If these tests reveal that QL isn't finding your system definition, I'd suggest you poke into the guts of Quicklisp-client:LIST-LOCAL-PROJECTS  Try tracing ENSURE-SYSTEM-INDEX inside that.  That will show what directories QL is looking in.  I'm afraid that's all I can come up with.
2018-06-02T20:30:41Z drmeister: Thank you - that is very helpful.
2018-06-02T20:30:48Z random9899: drmeister: try my init too
2018-06-02T20:30:55Z rpg: I *think* this is a QL bug (or, I suppose it could be a clasp bug) rather than an ASDF bug, but if you find otherwise, feel free to contact me. I'm going out for a while...
2018-06-02T20:30:58Z drmeister: I am currently recompiling quicklisp/setup.lisp   Clasp's compiler is a bit slow.
2018-06-02T20:31:09Z random9899: drmeister: the begin of only ofc....
2018-06-02T20:31:33Z skidd0: so the order is (ql:quickload :croatoan) then (in-package :croatoan) then (defun ..ex..)?
2018-06-02T20:32:03Z skidd0: cuz the (in-package :croatoan) is saying that it does not designate any package
2018-06-02T20:32:10Z random9899: skidd0: or (ql:quickload :croatoan) then (use-package :croatoan) then your (defun....)
2018-06-02T20:32:25Z skidd0: oh i'll try that
2018-06-02T20:32:29Z Xach: drmeister: I have Ideas
2018-06-02T20:32:44Z random9899: skidd0: right it might say that cause not every system is a package, some systems are just compositions of packages
2018-06-02T20:33:15Z skidd0: well now it's saying there are name conflicts
2018-06-02T20:33:21Z drmeister: random9899: Thank you - I will.   This isn't a completely naive system.  I've been using quicklisp successfully for years.   It's just today - while I try to separate out some code that should be different systems that I ran into this problem of quicklisp not finding things that I thought it should find
2018-06-02T20:33:25Z drmeister: Hi Xach
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2018-06-02T20:34:22Z random9899: skidd0: (in-package :de.anvi.croatoan)
2018-06-02T20:34:36Z random9899: skidd0: obviously it's name is different
2018-06-02T20:34:52Z Xach: drmeister: are you up for a bit of troubleshooting?
2018-06-02T20:35:08Z drmeister: I cleared my caches, loaded ~/quicklisp/setup.lisp and then invoked (quicklisp-client:list-local-projects)
2018-06-02T20:35:10Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/k4A3MKLl/
2018-06-02T20:35:35Z skidd0: random9899: that seems to have worked
2018-06-02T20:35:40Z random9899: skidd0: https://github.com/McParen/croatoan/blob/master/source/package.lisp
2018-06-02T20:35:43Z skidd0: there were no errors on compile
2018-06-02T20:35:48Z skidd0: or on eval
2018-06-02T20:35:50Z random9899: ok
2018-06-02T20:35:59Z drmeister: Then I do:  (ql:quickload "cl-jupyter-widgets") and it fails...
2018-06-02T20:36:00Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/02nNkAyD/
2018-06-02T20:36:06Z drmeister: SYSTEM-NOT-FOUND
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2018-06-02T20:36:11Z skidd0: but, i also did not see a new croatoan terminal thing. I'll look into that myself though. Thank you!
2018-06-02T20:36:26Z random9899: and the system name does no reflect the package name at all....
2018-06-02T20:36:32Z random9899: so in that case you lookup package.lisp
2018-06-02T20:36:46Z skidd0: and find the name
2018-06-02T20:36:49Z drmeister: Hmmm, it lists this...      #P"/Users/meister/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets/nglview/nglview.asd"
2018-06-02T20:36:52Z skidd0: and use that with in-package
2018-06-02T20:36:55Z rpg: drmeister: There's no listing for cl-jupyter-widgets.asd in that list of local projects, so that search is failing.
2018-06-02T20:36:56Z skidd0: ?
2018-06-02T20:36:57Z Xach: drmeister: in some cases the automagic scanning can't work, but (ql:register-local-projects) can. Are you able to load it after you do (ql:register-local-prjects)?
2018-06-02T20:37:08Z drmeister: That is a system definition file that must be over riding the one I want.
2018-06-02T20:37:13Z random9899: yes skidd0
2018-06-02T20:37:29Z skidd0: cool, thank you again
2018-06-02T20:37:52Z drmeister: Xach: I am - sorry to be a bit slow - I'm following some trains of my own thought first.
2018-06-02T20:37:56Z random9899: aaah, there's ncurses stuff out there eheh
2018-06-02T20:38:40Z drmeister: I'm separating several asdf systems that were all in the same directory hierarchy.   I think I better move out all of the directories that contain .asd files and then try again.
2018-06-02T20:39:02Z Xach: drmeister: please don't
2018-06-02T20:39:15Z skidd0: random9899: i'm using croatoan for the ncurses stuff
2018-06-02T20:39:20Z Xach: drmeister: you may of course do what you like, but it will take more time than if you try what I ask
2018-06-02T20:39:27Z skidd0: i'm trying, currently, to get around an issue with read-char
2018-06-02T20:39:43Z rpg: drmeister: there aren't any symlinks involved, are there?
2018-06-02T20:39:43Z skidd0: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/20276738/reading-a-character-without-requiring-the-enter-button-pressed
2018-06-02T20:40:14Z skidd0: and the simplest path forward, as indicated in a response to that SO Q, is to use a curses package
2018-06-02T20:40:17Z drmeister: Xach: No problem - I just renamed the nglview.asd to nglview.asd.backup
2018-06-02T20:40:22Z drmeister: What were you suggesting?
2018-06-02T20:40:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-06-02T20:41:06Z Xach: drmeister: please try (ql:register-local-projects)
2018-06-02T20:41:25Z Xach: drmeister: then please try (asdf:find-system "cl-jupyter-widgets")
2018-06-02T20:41:43Z drmeister: (ql:register-local-projects) done
2018-06-02T20:42:16Z drmeister: Then   (asdf:find-system "cl-jupyter-widgets") --> #<system "cl-jupyter-widgets">
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2018-06-02T20:42:43Z drmeister: But this is after I renamed cl-jupyter-widgets/nglview/nglview.asd to cl-jupyter-widgets/nglview/nglview.asd.backup
2018-06-02T20:42:49Z drmeister: FYI
2018-06-02T20:42:59Z Xach: drmeister: yes, just like how if you throw salt over your shoulder you will not have bad luck
2018-06-02T20:43:02Z drmeister: I could change it back if you think that would be illuminating.
2018-06-02T20:43:15Z random9899: change it back and try again.....
2018-06-02T20:43:16Z Xach: nglview.asd has no impact on cl-jupyter-widgets.asd in any way
2018-06-02T20:43:24Z drmeister: Ok.
2018-06-02T20:43:27Z Xach: there is no conflict or shadowing or any other effect
2018-06-02T20:43:43Z drmeister: Ok, I am following your lead here.
2018-06-02T20:44:01Z drmeister: What did (ql:register-local-projects) do?    Did it save any state in the quicklisp directories?
2018-06-02T20:44:09Z Xach: drmeister: automagic scanning works by comparing top-level timestamps of an index file and the top-level directory. it does not detect "deep" changes.
2018-06-02T20:44:20Z drmeister: Ok
2018-06-02T20:44:28Z Xach: drmeister: register-local-projects forces a full check of all subdirectories regarless of index file state.
2018-06-02T20:44:42Z random9899: aha
2018-06-02T20:44:50Z Xach: it is the thing to try if magic does not magic
2018-06-02T20:44:55Z drmeister: Ok.   So if I run into trouble like this again - would you recommend invoking (ql:register-local-projects) ?
2018-06-02T20:46:56Z skidd0: okay i'm back again.. so I compiled the (defun test1 ...), it worked. but! when I (test1) in the repl, it's undefined
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2018-06-02T20:48:47Z random9899: skidd0: you always say compiled, what's that ?
2018-06-02T20:48:57Z skidd0: uh
2018-06-02T20:49:03Z skidd0: my understanding is
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2018-06-02T20:49:20Z skidd0: SLIME takes a region of code from a file im writing in
2018-06-02T20:49:33Z skidd0: and compiles it with the REPL
2018-06-02T20:49:44Z skidd0: so it's "in the repl"
2018-06-02T20:49:52Z skidd0: like i can normally compile a (defun ...)
2018-06-02T20:50:00Z skidd0: then call that (fun) in the REPL
2018-06-02T20:50:06Z skidd0: and see it work
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2018-06-02T20:52:29Z Inumedia: Hi, I'm trying to understand a two-line segment from example code that isn't quite making sense to me (coming from C-Style world), https://pastebin.com/cJR50ZpK could someone explain what the :key does and how the second line modifies b?
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2018-06-02T20:53:33Z White_Flame: what language is that?  this channel is for Common Lisp specifically
2018-06-02T20:53:55Z Inumedia: Ah, sorry, it has the file extension .lsp, I assumed it was Common Lisp.
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2018-06-02T20:54:33Z drmeister is a man of science.
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2018-06-02T20:56:30Z drmeister: Xach: What is your opinion on ~/quicklisp/local-projects/cl-jupyter-widgets.asd or ~/quicklisp/local-projects/src/cl-jupyter-widgets.asd   where all of the source files are under ~/quicklisp/local-projects/src/*   ?
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2018-06-02T21:05:47Z skidd0: random9899: my issue was that calling (test1) wasn't in the package. calling (de.anvi.croatoan:test1) works
2018-06-02T21:06:21Z skidd0: the debugger says that TEST1 is not external, but I can [continue] use symbol anyway, and it'll work
2018-06-02T21:06:25Z skidd0: thanks man
2018-06-02T21:06:42Z smurfrobot quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-06-02T21:06:43Z MichaelRaskin: you can put :: to explicitly access non-external symbol
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2018-06-02T21:07:43Z skidd0: oh sweet, good to know
2018-06-02T21:07:46Z skidd0: thanks
2018-06-02T21:08:55Z skidd0: i'm running into an issue now that the SLIME repl doesn't like that the terminal/screen croaton makes uses colors. Iguess slime's repl's "terminal" in emacs doesn't use color
2018-06-02T21:09:22Z skidd0: but, running sbcl in it's own normal terminal then loading the test1 file and evaluating it works
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2018-06-02T21:12:27Z random9899: skidd0: if it's external you can use <package>:test1 otherwise you have to use <package>::test1
2018-06-02T21:13:01Z random9899: skidd0: or import it via (in-package :cl-user) (import '<package>::test1)
2018-06-02T21:13:04Z skidd0: and to make it external, i have to :export
2018-06-02T21:13:12Z skidd0: the symbol
2018-06-02T21:13:24Z skidd0: which would mean (:export :test1)?
2018-06-02T21:13:25Z random9899: ya but not you usually, the symbol provider has todo it
2018-06-02T21:13:30Z skidd0: right
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2018-06-02T21:13:31Z skidd0: in the package
2018-06-02T21:13:37Z random9899: other than you import it first and the reexport it
2018-06-02T21:13:53Z skidd0: which, since i'm defining the test1 myself, means i have to export it?
2018-06-02T21:14:36Z skidd0: hey while i'm here, are there any common pitfalls new lispers fall into?
2018-06-02T21:14:44Z random9899: many
2018-06-02T21:14:51Z skidd0: specifically, i'm trying to avoid writing lisp in the pythonic way i'm used to
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2018-06-02T21:14:53Z random9899: there are many pitfalls i think
2018-06-02T21:14:57Z skidd0: i want to write lisp in a lisp way
2018-06-02T21:15:10Z skidd0: well whaat's the biggest one you fell into when you were a newbie
2018-06-02T21:15:12Z skidd0: ?
2018-06-02T21:15:28Z skidd0: perhaps this is to early to ask, for me
2018-06-02T21:15:38Z skidd0: as i'm still barely dipping my toes in the kiddie pool
2018-06-02T21:15:51Z skidd0: i don't want to get scared of the deep end
2018-06-02T21:16:03Z MichaelRaskin: Well, every time you use setf/setq you might want to ask yourself if it should be setq or let/let*
2018-06-02T21:16:19Z random9899: there's also pure set
2018-06-02T21:16:23Z skidd0: okay, and that's because let defines a var in a scope
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2018-06-02T21:16:39Z skidd0: and setf can be on globals?
2018-06-02T21:16:47Z skidd0: \/specials?
2018-06-02T21:17:01Z random9899: setq == quotes the argument
2018-06-02T21:17:07Z jmercouris: any common lisp project management software out there?
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2018-06-02T21:17:28Z MichaelRaskin: Nope
2018-06-02T21:17:29Z random9899: setq bla value == setf 'bla value
2018-06-02T21:17:42Z MichaelRaskin: Nope
2018-06-02T21:17:51Z MichaelRaskin: setf doesn't need that quote
2018-06-02T21:17:56Z MichaelRaskin: And setq doesn't add it
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2018-06-02T21:18:15Z MichaelRaskin: setq is a special form that directly sets the value in a simple variable
2018-06-02T21:18:45Z random9899: is that the same in all lisps ?
2018-06-02T21:18:47Z MichaelRaskin: setf is a macro that can be taught to set more interesting locations, like (setf (elt l 3) 0)
2018-06-02T21:18:57Z MichaelRaskin: I don't think so, Scheme uses set!
2018-06-02T21:19:29Z _death: it's more like (set 'bla value), except that since lexical variables were introduced it's not
2018-06-02T21:19:41Z MichaelRaskin: And Common Lisp set… well, read the Hyperspec page of it. When you feel you are ready to read it once again, read it again. If you want to use it — well, maybe it does fit your use case.
2018-06-02T21:20:28Z random9899: ya i thought that too, that setq == set quote, but it's a special form
2018-06-02T21:20:31Z MichaelRaskin: But it is deprecated
2018-06-02T21:20:40Z _death: some lisp dialects also had setqq, which quoted both arguments
2018-06-02T21:20:41Z MichaelRaskin: I mean set is deprecated
2018-06-02T21:20:59Z MichaelRaskin: setq and setf are fine
2018-06-02T21:21:18Z MichaelRaskin: By the way, let*/let can create a dynamic-extent binding for a special variable
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2018-06-02T21:21:28Z MichaelRaskin: So you can use let* to temporarily change globals
2018-06-02T21:22:00Z random9899: so what's the difference betweeen declare special and declare dynamic-extent in a let/let* then ?
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2018-06-02T21:23:09Z random9899: wait, dynamic-extent in a lexical scope will make it's stack in-place rewritable ?
2018-06-02T21:23:16Z drmeister: Xach random9899 rpg  - thank you - I'm up and running now.
2018-06-02T21:23:26Z random9899: cool drmeister
2018-06-02T21:24:04Z random9899: so stack won't grow
2018-06-02T21:24:08Z random9899: no consing
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2018-06-02T21:37:12Z aeth: (setf (elt l 3) 0) is understating what setf can do. You can define your own setf in three ways. defun (setf foo), defsetf foo, and define-setf-expander. And defsetf is elaborate. You can take in multiple values, e.g. (setf (foo 42) (values 1 2 3 4))
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2018-06-02T21:39:17Z random9899: i never got to defsetf or define-setf-expander yet
2018-06-02T21:40:18Z random9899: someday i might tho
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2018-06-02T21:42:03Z aeth: I use it for array stuff. You can make fairly elaborate accessors (reader/writer pairs). The reader (the function) returns multiple values. The setf sets when given multiple values. So you can say (setf (array-row-of-4 foo 42) (array-of-4 bar)) and that will set (foo 42 i) where i is 0 through 3 with the first four elements of bar.
2018-06-02T21:42:45Z aeth: (It doesn't actually have to be a row of length 4 or an array of length 4... They'll just take/set the first four.)
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2018-06-02T21:50:04Z aeth: Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to work with &rest so you can't have an arbitrary number of values
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2018-06-02T21:55:56Z random9899: and why is that ?
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2018-06-02T21:59:07Z aeth: I'm not sure. Putting in a printf in the middle, it always is (#:new1 #:new2) no matter how many values are fed in. At least in SBCL. And in CCL (#:G25710 #:G25711)
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2018-06-02T22:05:33Z aeth: CLISP won't even compile it. Same with ECL.
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2018-06-02T23:53:48Z ricky____: hello, all. can anyone tell me why this let form returns NIL? `(defparameter instruction-map (let (ht (make-hash-table)) ht))`
2018-06-02T23:54:05Z beardio: is it possible to sort a list '(a n b h l k e)...I know sort on a list of integer with the predicate #'<, I am trying to figure out how for characters
2018-06-02T23:56:54Z mfiano: That is not a list of characters
2018-06-02T23:57:14Z White_Flame: ricky____: (let (<binding1> <binding2> ...) ...)
2018-06-02T23:57:31Z beardio: sorry atoms
2018-06-02T23:57:41Z White_Flame: you defined 2 bindings, ht, and the local variable make-hash-table.  You need another set of parens
2018-06-02T23:57:46Z mfiano: Every non cons is an atom, including numbers
2018-06-02T23:58:19Z White_Flame: beardio: get the SYMBOL-NAME of each entry, and sort on that
2018-06-02T23:58:34Z White_Flame: there's no defined sort order for symbols, because they include a package by default, too
2018-06-02T23:59:17Z mfiano: something like (sort '(a d b f e c) (lambda (x y) (string< (symbol-name x) y)))
2018-06-03T00:00:10Z ricky____: White_Flame: ah, right. thanks.
2018-06-03T00:00:31Z aeth: (let ((x) y) (values x y)) => nil nil
2018-06-03T00:00:38Z beardio: nice! thanks White_Flame: and mfiano:
2018-06-03T00:00:55Z aeth: Both are ways to get nil bindings, it's just that the order you put them in made it look like you were doing a non-nil binding
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2018-06-03T00:07:05Z pierpa: simply: (sort '(a d b f e c) #'string<)
2018-06-03T00:07:14Z pierpa: clhs string<
2018-06-03T00:07:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm
2018-06-03T00:08:10Z pierpa: (many string functions accept a string designator)
2018-06-03T00:08:38Z White_Flame: ah, forgot about that
2018-06-03T00:09:08Z pierpa: comes handy very often!
2018-06-03T00:09:23Z mfiano: Ah yes, forgot about that as well.
2018-06-03T00:09:29Z mfiano: Nice!
2018-06-03T00:09:44Z White_Flame: I tend to be very explicit in my code, instead of relying on "auto-casting"
2018-06-03T00:09:52Z White_Flame: but for learning, cast away ;)
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2018-06-03T00:10:02Z beardio: nice!
2018-06-03T00:10:12Z pierpa: I understand this point of view. OTOH, it's CL, not  ML :)
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2018-06-03T00:10:55Z aeth: ML would be a great name for a lisp implementation. Modern Lisp.
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2018-06-03T00:11:12Z aeth: (or maybe Macro Lisp?)
2018-06-03T00:11:15Z pierpa: unfortunately it's already taken (several times :)
2018-06-03T00:17:29Z pierpa: (whew, looks like nobody noticed the mistake in (sort '(a d b f e c) #'string<)  :)
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2018-06-03T00:18:56Z rpg: How about Standard Modern Lisp of New Jersey? ;-)
2018-06-03T00:19:08Z pierpa: :)
2018-06-03T00:20:23Z merskiasa: why is 2 an insecure base with a modulus of 257 for Diffie-Hellman?
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2018-06-03T00:23:08Z mfiano: pierpa: I did, but I didn't want to say anything :)
2018-06-03T00:23:18Z pierpa: good :)
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2018-06-03T00:23:35Z merskiasa: Anyone?
2018-06-03T00:24:11Z mfiano: It was a problem with my example to fwiw
2018-06-03T00:24:16Z LdBeth: ML is already existed as a functional language family inspired by lisp
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2018-06-03T00:24:27Z mfiano: too*
2018-06-03T00:25:37Z pierpa: LdBeth: and in addition to this, also Machine Language, Machine Learning, ...
2018-06-03T00:26:15Z pierpa: mfiano: yes, indeed, I copied without thinking
2018-06-03T00:29:10Z mfiano: I see what you did there :)
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2018-06-03T02:33:27Z aeth: Is there a way to detect if I'm no longer using any symbols from a package that I am importing from? Yes, there's no way to detect this perfectly because you can basically do whatever, but I'm sure I probably am importing from some packages unnecessarily.
2018-06-03T02:34:15Z aeth: e.g. if I only was using a package for some constants or deftypes that then got moved to another package
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2018-06-03T02:42:15Z mfiano: Yes, you could run the deterministic profiler, giving it that package name
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2018-06-03T03:39:52Z jlarocco: FWIW, in that conversation a few hours ago, (sort '(a d b f e c) #'string<) is legal because #'string< takes string designators, and symbols are string designators
2018-06-03T03:41:01Z aeth: mfiano: thanks, that's really clever!
2018-06-03T03:41:15Z mfiano: Sure
2018-06-03T03:41:47Z mfiano: jibanes: We already discussed that, and that's not the problem we were referring to :)
2018-06-03T03:41:51Z mfiano: err jlarocco
2018-06-03T03:43:19Z jlarocco: oh, haha, sorry
2018-06-03T03:45:13Z mfiano: See if you can spot what's wrong with that form
2018-06-03T03:46:21Z jlarocco: you mean passing a literal list to sort?
2018-06-03T03:46:49Z mfiano: Right
2018-06-03T03:47:11Z jlarocco: sorry, I should have scrolled up further
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2018-06-03T04:17:53Z ealfonso: is it possible to disable ldb in a buildapp-generated executable?
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2018-06-03T04:23:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-03T04:25:47Z akkad: yeap
2018-06-03T04:26:08Z akkad: --disable-debugger
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2018-06-03T04:34:41Z edgar-rft: ealfonso, you can FMAKUNBOUND the LDB function in your Lisp code before you're dumping the image.
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2018-06-03T04:43:18Z phoe: edgar-rft: I do not think he means #'LDB but rather he means SBCL's low level debugger.
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2018-06-03T04:45:31Z edgar-rft: then he should say so
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2018-06-03T06:13:59Z phoe: Hm
2018-06-03T06:14:14Z beach: What?
2018-06-03T06:14:24Z phoe: Do I want to treat my RDBMS as plain old data store, and therefore have all logic on the Lisp side
2018-06-03T06:14:59Z phoe: Or do I want to offload some logic to PL/PGSQL and therefore learn a bit of it?
2018-06-03T06:15:12Z phoe: Hm, why not both?
2018-06-03T06:15:43Z phoe: I'll learn PL/PGSQL that way, and then end up writing the same in Lisp nonetheless because hell, I prefer to debug Lisp rather than to debug procedural SQL.
2018-06-03T06:16:10Z phoe: beach: just thinking out loud.
2018-06-03T06:17:07Z beach: Sure.
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2018-06-03T06:17:53Z phoe: I was initially thinking about performance, but then remembered that premature optimization is the sqrt of all evil and it's easy to speculate about something that does not yet exist.
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2018-06-03T07:09:57Z phoe: I need a Common Lisp utility that, given some kind of lambda list with annotated types, and a function's return value, will give me a valid DECLAIM FTYPE form.
2018-06-03T07:11:14Z phoe: Something like ((foo string) bar (baz (or symbol number))) (values t boolean) as input, and (function (string t (or symbol number)) (values t boolean)) as output.
2018-06-03T07:12:04Z phoe: Does anyone know of such a thing? I would not want to reinvent it, if possible.
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2018-06-03T10:35:30Z elderK: Hey guys, I was wondering how people parse binary formats in CL. I've seen read-sequence?
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2018-06-03T10:38:53Z pjb: elderK: there's also read-byte.
2018-06-03T10:39:20Z pjb: elderK: notice that you can also specify the element-type, so you can read files bit by bit, or 3-bit by 3-bit, etc.
2018-06-03T10:39:31Z phoe: elderK: https://github.com/frodef/binary-types
2018-06-03T10:39:52Z pjb: (but other than 8-bit by 8-bit  and possibly bit-by-bit on current hardware, it's probably implementation dependent how the bytes are mapped to the files).
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2018-06-03T10:40:32Z phoe: elderK: there is also lisp-binary which fails to compile on modern sbcl.
2018-06-03T10:40:50Z phoe: Or rather - requires special workarounds to be compiled.
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2018-06-03T10:42:08Z elderK: phoe: I'd prefer to learn how to do it myself, not using other libraries.
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2018-06-03T10:42:48Z elderK: pjb: I just figure you'd need to create functions so that you could say, read-u32 from some arbitrary position in the blob that you've loaded.
2018-06-03T10:42:59Z phoe: elderK: oh, that
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2018-06-03T10:43:55Z phoe: you could read the code for https://github.com/rpav/fast-io to learn how it works - it has functions for {read,write}[u]{8,16,32,64,128}{-be,-le}
2018-06-03T10:44:04Z pjb: yeah, bit is not portable or useful.  clall -r '(with-open-file (out (format nil "/tmp/foo-~A" (lisp-implementation-type)) :direction :output :if-exists :supersede :if-does-not-exist :create :element-type (quote bit)) (write-sequence #(1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1) out) (file-length out))' ; ls -l /tmp/foo-* ; for f in /tmp/foo-* ; do od -t x1 "$f" ; done
2018-06-03T10:44:32Z pjb: clisp writes bit by bit, but writes first a 32-bit little endian file-length (in number of bits). the other implementations write one bit per octet, which is useless.
2018-06-03T10:45:06Z pjb: This is why the usual advice is to use (unsigned-byte 8) as element-type, and format the binary file yourself, octet-by-octet.
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2018-06-03T10:46:15Z random9899: pjb: what is clall -r ?
2018-06-03T10:46:45Z _death: the nibbles library is handy
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2018-06-03T10:46:57Z phoe: AFAIR it's pjb's script that calls the following code with all CL implementations available on the machine
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2018-06-03T10:51:24Z pjb: find it in https://github.com/informatimago/bin
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2018-06-03T11:33:34Z random9899: found some good youtube vids about lisp too https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCufkSSu1trzm9nB-jYOPuvw and http://www.uio.no/studier/emner/matnat/ifi/INF4820/h17/timeplan/index.html#2-2
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2018-06-03T12:34:19Z phoe: TIL (lambda (&optional)) is valid Lisp
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2018-06-03T12:41:27Z thoxdg: hello lisp world
2018-06-03T12:41:32Z phoe: hey thoxdg
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2018-06-03T12:44:11Z thoxdg: i see fat32 was added to mezzano
2018-06-03T12:44:37Z phoe: yep, AFAIR it's ebrasca's work
2018-06-03T12:44:58Z thoxdg: i'm working on a cl vfs
2018-06-03T12:45:24Z thoxdg: it's called remap i wonder if it might help speedup development and portability
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2018-06-03T15:55:22Z jmercouris: trying to get cl-launch to work
2018-06-03T15:55:29Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/fa0a99545964dca67c16750481b680f0
2018-06-03T15:55:36Z jmercouris: any thoughts?
2018-06-03T15:56:50Z pjb: ls -l /usr/bin/cl
2018-06-03T15:57:05Z jmercouris: pjb: no such dir
2018-06-03T15:57:12Z pjb: There.
2018-06-03T15:57:14Z jmercouris: which cl --> /usr/local/bin/cl
2018-06-03T15:57:26Z pjb: Then use /usr/local/bin/cl not /usr/bin/cl
2018-06-03T15:57:43Z jmercouris: seems strange behavior that it depends on that though, no?
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2018-06-03T15:58:19Z jmercouris: especially since the makefile specifices the install_bin as /usr/local/bin
2018-06-03T15:58:24Z phenoble: Hi everyone
2018-06-03T15:58:29Z jmercouris: here's the top of the makefile: https://gist.github.com/4de76bd2e6250b5a8d54588e50c60a45
2018-06-03T15:59:05Z pjb: jmercouris: http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/documents/commandname-extensions-considered-harmful
2018-06-03T15:59:07Z jmercouris: ah you know what, it suggests a symlink IIRC
2018-06-03T15:59:18Z phenoble: I'm currently learning CL. Any recommended resources on learning CL debugging techniques? I finished Seibel's "Practical Common Lisp" today. Nothing about debugging in there.
2018-06-03T15:59:24Z pjb: Unix scripts should not have any file extension.
2018-06-03T15:59:28Z pjb: They unnecessarily expose implementation detail (breaking encapsulation).
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2018-06-03T15:59:31Z pjb: They uselessly and incompletely mimic detail from the #! line.
2018-06-03T15:59:34Z pjb: They capture insufficient detail to be useful at the system level (and aren't used).
2018-06-03T15:59:37Z jmercouris: pjb: yeah, I was just testing
2018-06-03T15:59:38Z pjb: They clash with recommended Unix (and Linux) practice.
2018-06-03T15:59:40Z pjb: They add noise to the command-level API.
2018-06-03T15:59:43Z pjb: They are very commonly technically incorrect for the script.
2018-06-03T15:59:45Z jmercouris: pjb: my scripts dir has no suffixes
2018-06-03T15:59:46Z pjb: They give incorrect impressions about the use of the files they adorn.
2018-06-03T15:59:49Z pjb: They aren't validated even for what little info is present in them.
2018-06-03T15:59:52Z pjb: They interfere with switching scripting languages.
2018-06-03T15:59:54Z pjb: They interfere with changing scripting language versions.
2018-06-03T15:59:56Z pjb: They interfere with changing to presumably-faster compiled forms.
2018-06-03T15:59:58Z pjb: They encourage naively running scripts with the extension-implied interpreter.
2018-06-03T15:59:59Z jmercouris: Yes, I get it :D
2018-06-03T16:00:00Z pjb: They infect novice scripters with misinformation about Unix scripting.
2018-06-03T16:00:02Z pjb: They ironically are only a problem when interpreted by humans.
2018-06-03T16:00:08Z pjb: Go read the url above.
2018-06-03T16:00:33Z pjb: And of course, NO normal directory shall have file name "extension"!
2018-06-03T16:01:02Z jmercouris: Yes, of course
2018-06-03T16:01:03Z pjb: You may have extensions on directory names, when they're "file packages", as implemented on NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/MacOSX/iOS.
2018-06-03T16:01:06Z beach: phenoble: Unfortunately, the debugging tools available for free Common Lisp implementations are not so great.
2018-06-03T16:01:07Z pjb: GNUstep, etc.
2018-06-03T16:01:33Z jmercouris: beach: I would have to agree with that
2018-06-03T16:01:45Z jmercouris: when I was looking into it, I was really dissappointed
2018-06-03T16:01:46Z pjb: phenoble: I have a little tutorial for clisp debugging. https://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
2018-06-03T16:01:54Z beach: phenoble: Start by putting (proclaim '(optimize (debug 3) (speed 0) (safety 3) (compilation=speed 0))) in your start-up file.
2018-06-03T16:01:58Z pjb: phenoble: but nowadays people will use in general sldb in slime.
2018-06-03T16:02:05Z pjb: compilation-speed
2018-06-03T16:02:06Z phenoble: beach, jmercouris:  that's unfortunate.  Though I got the impression that some "trace" functionality would be a thing in CL debugging?
2018-06-03T16:02:16Z beach: phenoble: Yes, trace is fine.
2018-06-03T16:02:30Z beach: phenoble: And if you are using SBCL, you can use :break t with trace.
2018-06-03T16:02:42Z pjb: phenoble: not all implementation implement the STEP operator, or starting a trace from the debugger.  For this, have a look at my conforming cl-stepper.
2018-06-03T16:03:02Z phenoble: pjb: oh, interesting. Slime has its own debugger.
2018-06-03T16:03:04Z beach: phenoble: Otherwise, you need to stick a (break) in the place where you want to stop, then C-c C-c to compile that function, then run your program.
2018-06-03T16:03:08Z phenoble: pjb:  thanks
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2018-06-03T16:03:48Z beach: phenoble: From the backtrace, you can then find local variables, and you can use the SLIME inspector to inspect them.
2018-06-03T16:03:58Z phenoble: beach:  thank you for that starter. I will consider that initialization code.
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2018-06-03T16:04:53Z phenoble: pjb:  do you have a link to cl-stepper? I can't find anything on google about it.
2018-06-03T16:04:56Z beach: phenoble: Most of the time, though, you run the program until it fails, look at the backtrace.  Figure out why things were called the way they were.  Hit SPACE in front of your stack frames, look at variables, inspect, etc.
2018-06-03T16:05:22Z pjb: phenoble: the thing is that since we can easily just redefine a function while running the program, lisp debugging techniques are often source-based. You just edit the source of your function, adding print and break and other forms to help you debug it, re-evaluate the function, and go on executing.
2018-06-03T16:06:22Z phenoble: beach:  Yes, the standard is to be expected. Though I would not've been surprised if CL offered something extra-nice in conjunction with e.g. slime.
2018-06-03T16:06:30Z pjb: The only case where it's not possible, is when your function is on the call stack (it's being executed), such as a main loop, or when its calls are optimized (it's inlined), notably when it's called from other functions in the same file. For this, you have to declare it notinline and recompile the file.
2018-06-03T16:06:54Z pjb: (Probably a (debug 3) would make all functions notinline, check your implementation documentation).
2018-06-03T16:06:55Z beach: phenoble: It probably does, but you would have to pay for a commercial implementation.
2018-06-03T16:07:32Z beach: phenoble: There has not been enough manpower for the free implementations to become excellent when it comes to debugging techniques.
2018-06-03T16:07:48Z phenoble: pjb:  I see. Yes. That's how I am increasingly working with elisp.  Though my implementations are not all that nested, or dependent on each other. I could well imagine that even this rather comfortable style can get to its limits. So more sophisticated tools might become necessary.
2018-06-03T16:08:27Z MichaelRaskin: Also, Common Lisp has macros, so you can quickly add some interesting tracing where needed. Like writing a special trace-let macro that shows all the bindings as they are made
2018-06-03T16:09:14Z phenoble: MichaelRaskin:  showing all the bindings as they are made... does that count as a modification of the compiler?
2018-06-03T16:09:15Z beach: MichaelRaskin: But that also requires modifying the source as pjb pointed out.
2018-06-03T16:09:41Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, sure
2018-06-03T16:09:54Z beach: phenoble: Yes, one way of looking at macros is as a means of programming the compiler.
2018-06-03T16:10:32Z pjb: indeed, macros are hooks into the compiler.
2018-06-03T16:10:40Z pjb: compiler plug-ins.
2018-06-03T16:11:04Z phenoble: beach:  I can imagine. I have a bit of a background in C++ metaprogramming, so I'm not all too new to the rationale behind it. Though this in particular, changing the way bindings are done or the like, intrigues me very much.
2018-06-03T16:11:34Z pjb: phenoble: have a look at OpenC++ https://www.informatimago.com/articles/life-saver.html
2018-06-03T16:11:37Z beach: phenoble: Nah, it just wraps the binding code in some trace printing.  Normal stuff.
2018-06-03T16:11:54Z pjb: phenoble: (it has bit-rotten, but it could be revived, notably with clang).
2018-06-03T16:12:12Z phoe: phenoble: templates aren't really like Lisp macros
2018-06-03T16:12:20Z pjb: or the MOP…
2018-06-03T16:12:30Z phoe: with Lisp macros, you simply accept some S-expressions and then output some S-expressions
2018-06-03T16:12:37Z phoe: that just happen to be Lisp source code
2018-06-03T16:12:40Z beach: MichaelRaskin: For debugging, I would prefer not to modify the source.  For one thing, it takes time to insert the code, and then I often forget to take it out.  And I certainly don't want my "production" code to have debugging information in it.  But it is also sometimes the case that the problem disappears when the code is modified that way.
2018-06-03T16:13:42Z phenoble: pjb:  interesting link to this OpenC++ project, thanks! Most likely not an option in my professional environment though. We have our tools in place, and some momentum with it.
2018-06-03T16:13:46Z beach: MichaelRaskin: But, as pjb pointed out, that is often the only way to do it with the tools at our disposal.
2018-06-03T16:14:05Z phoe: beach: in theory, you could use the CLtL2 environments to insert additional debugging information into code only when DEBUG is 3, for example.
2018-06-03T16:14:24Z phoe: If DEBUG is below 3, code without debugging information is emitted.
2018-06-03T16:14:46Z phoe: And you could do this without touching the compiler - just inside macros and/or compiler macros, because you have the ability to query &env for declaration information.
2018-06-03T16:14:47Z pjb: There's also the elpp proof-of-concept (a copy at https://github.com/informatimago/elpp ) this is an emacs lisp pre-processor, which allows you to define macros in emacs lisp to generate code for any programming language you have to use.
2018-06-03T16:14:48Z beach: phoe: How would you insert it?
2018-06-03T16:14:51Z MichaelRaskin: I am too used to putting debug printing as a way of understanding the code (not only in Lisp)
2018-06-03T16:15:06Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I am sorry to hear that.
2018-06-03T16:15:09Z phenoble: phoe:  I know, yes. That's why things like "binding code in some trace printing" is considered normal in CL I suppose. Rather impossible in C++ (I suppose).
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2018-06-03T16:15:56Z MichaelRaskin: beach: well, at least this is a tranferrable skill, I can read strace output comfortably, too
2018-06-03T16:16:11Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Congratulations.
2018-06-03T16:16:45Z phenoble: beach:  Interesting point about not modifying the source for debugging. I appreciate very much that this is so easy in lisp(s).
2018-06-03T16:17:09Z phenoble: beach: You write "with the tools at our disposal"... - that sounds like you had better tools in mind. That so? Like what?
2018-06-03T16:17:34Z beach: phenoble: Yes, I am planning such tools, but don't hold your breath.
2018-06-03T16:17:41Z phoe: beach: (defmacro foo (...) (if (= 3 (second (find 'speed (declaration-information 'optimize env) :key #'first))) '(progn (print-debug-stuff) (%foo) (print-more-debug-stuff)) '(%foo)))
2018-06-03T16:17:45Z phoe: something like that
2018-06-03T16:17:59Z phoe: where declaration-information is provided via trivial-cltl2 and described at https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html
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2018-06-03T16:18:38Z beach: phoe: But you would have to insert calls to FOO in your code, right?
2018-06-03T16:18:57Z phoe: beach: yes, but here I assume that FOO is a macro that is already used somewhere in the code.
2018-06-03T16:19:04Z phoe: It is some part of logic that we want to debug.
2018-06-03T16:19:19Z phoe: If FOO is a function, we can use compiler macros instead.
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2018-06-03T16:19:28Z MichaelRaskin: Hm, I guess I have all the moving parts to inject tracing the bindings without changing the source code, just with a recompilation.
2018-06-03T16:19:39Z MichaelRaskin: Not sure if I want that, but maybe it is a good idea to try…
2018-06-03T16:19:42Z beach: phoe: So then I would have to modify every function or macro that I use in the same way?
2018-06-03T16:20:49Z phoe: beach: the ones you want to debug, yep. Quite possibly it can be wrapped in a macro to hide the syntax, but this implies that you need to wrap your functions in special debugging sugar to be able to utilize this behavior at DEBUG 3.
2018-06-03T16:20:49Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That's another thing.  I usually don't want tracing.  I want a breakpoint where I can stop, examine the variables using the inspector, step from that breakpoint to some other place, etc.
2018-06-03T16:20:57Z phoe: Not the best or most productive approach, but this is the thing I thought of.
2018-06-03T16:21:07Z beach: phoe: Yes, I see.
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2018-06-03T16:21:37Z shka_: is calling C++/java/C♯/python style object orientation "message passing" is correct?
2018-06-03T16:21:40Z MichaelRaskin: Well, injecting tracing and injecting breaks are comparable implementation-wise
2018-06-03T16:21:53Z beach: shka_: Or "single dispatch".
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2018-06-03T16:22:32Z shka_: beach: you consider those two terms to be synonyms, yes?
2018-06-03T16:22:35Z pjb: shka_: not really. There's may one or two languages that implement actual message passing.
2018-06-03T16:22:37Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Sounds good.  Now you just need to wrap the entire thing in an interactive application called a "debugger".
2018-06-03T16:22:43Z pjb: message passing shall be asynchronous.
2018-06-03T16:22:47Z MichaelRaskin: Traces give me time-dimensions (with restrictions on breadth), breakpoints give broad access space-wise, but in a limited amount of points in time
2018-06-03T16:23:03Z pjb: shka_: what all the OOP implement (including smalltalk!) are function calls with some dispatching.
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2018-06-03T16:23:42Z MichaelRaskin: I have lost belief in interactive applications by now, I guess.
2018-06-03T16:23:49Z shka_: pjb: hm, i see where are you going with this
2018-06-03T16:24:02Z pjb: shka_: now you can still use a "message passing programming style".  For example, don't let your method compute stuff and return results.  Instead, if there are results to be obtained, let them send back a message to some other object.
2018-06-03T16:24:23Z shka_: ok
2018-06-03T16:24:25Z pjb: Like the target/action in OpenStep/Cocoa frameworks.
2018-06-03T16:24:31Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Yes, I understand.  Then the current debugging environment that is available to us should suit you just fine.
2018-06-03T16:24:49Z shka_: well, i better stick to "single dispatch" it seems to be more precise
2018-06-03T16:25:04Z pjb: shka_: but you have to be careful, because you code can still have implicit synchronization expectations.
2018-06-03T16:25:38Z pjb: Those expectations are met until you change the implementation of your methods and "order" of message sending changes…
2018-06-03T16:25:43Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, pure SBCL debug REPL plus some macros added as-needed mostly satisfy my needs.
2018-06-03T16:25:43Z pjb: then your system breaks…
2018-06-03T16:25:47Z shka_: though, it seems to miss generic functions VS interface discussion
2018-06-03T16:26:38Z pjb: Well, multiple dispatch is rather an orthogonal point, and can trivially mapped to single-dispatch, so there's no reason to avoid it, when pertinent.
2018-06-03T16:27:00Z shka_: It seems like if you want to compare CLOS to something in vein of C++ you better of put table to compare those two
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2018-06-03T16:27:19Z shka_: pjb, beach thanks guys, you are awesome
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2018-06-03T16:28:13Z jmercouris: ASDF mentions a link-farm: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems.html
2018-06-03T16:28:17Z jmercouris: what is a link-farm?
2018-06-03T16:29:29Z MichaelRaskin: A place with symbolic links to files scattered across a complicated directory structure
2018-06-03T16:29:46Z jmercouris: Oh, I see
2018-06-03T16:29:53Z jmercouris: so you make a symlink to every ASD file in that dir?
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2018-06-03T16:30:12Z pjb: that's a way to manage it.
2018-06-03T16:30:22Z pjb: Notably if you want to have different sets of asdf files.
2018-06-03T16:30:36Z jmercouris: very interesting
2018-06-03T16:30:37Z pjb: Then you can point asdf:*central-registry* to one directory of symlinks or another.
2018-06-03T16:30:42Z jmercouris: Right
2018-06-03T16:30:51Z jmercouris: or maybe you can even symlink where the centra-registry looks
2018-06-03T16:31:00Z pjb: But it's as easy to have functions to fill asdf:*central-registry* with the directories where your systems are stored too.
2018-06-03T16:31:11Z pjb: jmercouris: yes, too.
2018-06-03T16:31:28Z pjb: It's just a question whether you're more a lisper or more a unixer.
2018-06-03T16:31:34Z pjb: jmercouris: have a look at ugh!
2018-06-03T16:31:55Z pjb: http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf
2018-06-03T16:31:55Z jmercouris: Is that the question? I thought we weren't supposed to attempt to redefine asdf:*central-registry* directly anymore
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2018-06-03T16:32:32Z jmercouris: pjb: lol that's an interesting link, I'll have to read it thanks
2018-06-03T16:32:40Z jmercouris: I guess I am a Unixer...
2018-06-03T16:32:50Z pjb: There's few things I hate more than deprecators.
2018-06-03T16:33:04Z pjb: Or changes of API in general.
2018-06-03T16:33:34Z pjb: eg. I still cannot use llvm.  I don't see why it should have a different user interface than gdb (and why I should get python backtraces each time I launch it).
2018-06-03T16:33:41Z pjb: Shitty software.
2018-06-03T16:34:32Z pjb: Anyways, this is the big advantage of CL, it hasn't changed since 1989 and is mostly compatible with everything done worth doing since 1959…
2018-06-03T16:34:51Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2018-06-03T16:34:58Z jmercouris: well, sometimes the API must change...
2018-06-03T16:35:12Z jmercouris: anyways, I'm not interested in getting into this argument, gotta go, thanks for the info!
2018-06-03T16:35:23Z pjb: This means that the little code we write now with the few resources we have, gets a chance to be usable in 20 or 50 years…
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2018-06-03T16:35:38Z pjb: I wouldn't bet anything on any version of python, and does anybody remember perl?
2018-06-03T16:35:56Z pjb: jmercouris: you can add, but keep the old API.
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2018-06-03T16:45:33Z jeosol: morning guys. Interesting discussions about debug methods and techniques.
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2018-06-03T17:35:30Z puchacz: hi, if I pass readonly that is known at compile time, this macro gives me deleting unused code warning (obviously): (defmacro <textarea ((readonly) &rest rest) `(if ,readonly (<:textarea :readonly "readonly" ,@rest) (<:textarea ,@rest)))
2018-06-03T17:35:38Z puchacz: any better way of writting it pls?
2018-06-03T17:36:59Z stylewarning: puchacz: is it always known at compile time?
2018-06-03T17:37:09Z puchacz: stylewarning: nope
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2018-06-03T17:37:58Z stylewarning: puchacz: try doing (if (constantp readonly) <do explicit if> <expand into if like above>)
2018-06-03T17:38:26Z puchacz: stylewarning, thanks
2018-06-03T17:40:01Z flip214: or `(<:textarea ,(if readonly :readonly :not-readonly) "readonly" ,@rest) ....
2018-06-03T17:40:06Z puchacz: no good, as sometimes something is known at compiletime, yet is is not a constant
2018-06-03T17:40:15Z flip214: ah, yes, sorry.
2018-06-03T17:40:16Z puchacz: e.g. (let ((readonly t))
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2018-06-03T17:41:16Z puchacz: but it is an improvement
2018-06-03T17:42:15Z flip214: `(<:textarea :readonly (if ,readonly "readonly" "not-readonly") ,@rest) and let the compiler be smart enough for constants
2018-06-03T17:42:47Z puchacz: flip214: thanks
2018-06-03T17:43:22Z flip214: I guess that at compile time _more_ "constantp"-ness is known than at macro-expansion time...
2018-06-03T17:43:40Z puchacz: indeed. and different lisps might have different ideas
2018-06-03T17:43:46Z stylewarning: flip214: isn’t that basically equivalent and will still lead to dead code
2018-06-03T17:44:54Z stylewarning: The point isn’t that the compiler can or cannot figure something out, it’s that it *is* working but identifying dead code and annoyingly emitting messages about it.
2018-06-03T17:45:37Z puchacz: well, the flip214 solution muffles compiler OK, I only wonder if readonly="not-readonly" is a standard HTML
2018-06-03T17:45:49Z puchacz: I did not know this for example
2018-06-03T17:46:19Z flip214: puchacz: then do (if ,readonly :readonly :not-readonly) "readonly" instead
2018-06-03T17:46:29Z flip214: unknown HTML attributes are ignored
2018-06-03T17:46:44Z puchacz: flip214: good idea
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2018-06-03T17:49:05Z flip214: puchacz: also, see http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Controlling-Verbosity-1
2018-06-03T17:49:21Z flip214: ;;; Muffle compiler-notes based on lexical scope
2018-06-03T17:49:35Z puchacz: ah, very good. tks
2018-06-03T17:50:06Z flip214: is that true currently?  > (At present, no companies or consultants wish to advertise paid support or custom SBCL development in this manual).
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2018-06-03T17:52:20Z pjb: puchacz: you seem to be wanting a function, not a macro. Why is this <textarea operator a macro?
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2018-06-03T17:53:36Z pjb: puchacz: also, the recursive calls don't have the right form.  The macro takes a list containing readonly.  The recursive calls don't pass such a list!
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2018-06-03T18:41:09Z rumbler31: beach: re: debugging, what tools have you used that are not available in free implementations?
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2018-06-03T19:02:58Z pjb: rumbler31: what tool would you trust that 1- you haven't programmed yourself.  2- that are not at least available as free software?
2018-06-03T19:03:19Z pjb: Even google "don't do evil" did evil and now is removing their moto.
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2018-06-03T19:24:11Z ealfonso: how can I disable ldb from lisp? is ldb an sbcl-specific feature? I'm trying to use fmakunbound but can't find the right function.. is it SB-KERNEL:%LDB?
2018-06-03T19:27:11Z ealfonso: also, is there a simple way to intentionally trigger ldb to test this? other than requesting a lot of memory?
2018-06-03T19:27:22Z _death: do you mean sbcl's low-level debugger?
2018-06-03T19:27:51Z ealfonso: yeah
2018-06-03T19:28:28Z _death: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Enabling-and-Disabling-the-Debugger
2018-06-03T19:28:49Z _death: there is also a --disable-debugger option
2018-06-03T19:29:39Z ealfonso: yeah. thanks. (disable-debugger) works since I'm using it from buildapp to create an executable
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2018-06-03T21:57:54Z ealfonso: what is the best way to understand which objects are consuming the most memory in the heap? is it the sbcl statistical profiler?
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2018-06-03T21:59:11Z aeth: I use sb-profile and if you break things up into small enough functions it's pretty easy to see where the allocations are happening.
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2018-06-03T22:02:38Z ealfonso: if I'm interpreting correctly, statistical profiler or sb-profile gives me a 'consed' column or the amount of new allocs, but does not account for gc'd memory. I have a lot of functions that seem to alloc memory temporarily. what I'd like to see is which memory has been allocated and not gc'd (e.g. to optimize long-running process slow memory leak)
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2018-06-03T22:07:16Z aeth: well, there's sb-sprof and sb-profile. I find sprof gives me more noise.
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2018-06-03T22:07:40Z aeth: ealfonso: you can try (room)
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2018-06-03T22:08:35Z aeth: you can diff two (rooms) to see what has changed, but the act of producing the string for (room) probably allocates. There's probably a low-level, SBCL-specific thing you can use to bypass this.
2018-06-03T22:08:46Z aeth: s/(rooms)/(room)s/
2018-06-03T22:09:31Z aeth: It's also possible that SLIME is continuously allocating new things.
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2018-06-03T22:12:45Z ealfonso: I can see dynamic space usage with (room), but not which objects or which functions are generating it. I can see a snapshot of new allocations with sb-*prof*, but it includes temporary allocations that might be gc'd. I guess I also need information about what is being gc'd
2018-06-03T22:13:42Z aeth: ealfonso: how temporary are the temporary allocations? Could you (declare (dynamic-extent foo)) them?
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2018-06-03T22:18:40Z ealfonso: I don't know why a function with a single cffi:foreign-funcall sexp is showing the most 'consed'. when there should not be any allocs in the foreign function
2018-06-03T22:19:06Z ealfonso: could there be some cffi overhead causing conses?
2018-06-03T22:20:19Z aeth: I don't think so. My CFFI code doesn't cons. The overhead tends to be from poorly wrapped CFFI, like copying huge arrays (cl-opengl likes do do this, but fortunately it also has the %gl package)
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2018-06-03T22:24:39Z ealfonso: https://pastebin.com/2tacbyZZ this is my wrapper that is showing the most conses... does it mean my_foreign_function must be allocating?
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2018-06-03T22:30:36Z ealfonso: or can I get the size of a particular object?
2018-06-03T22:31:55Z ealfonso: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1636910 maybe not
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2018-06-03T22:34:55Z pjb:  normally, CFFI does its magic at compilation time.
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2018-06-03T22:38:12Z ealfonso: pjb is cffi:foreign-funcall the wrong (slower) approach, should I be using defcfun instead?
2018-06-03T22:38:33Z pjb: I would say so.
2018-06-03T22:39:03Z pjb: Using defcfun will generate at macroexpansion time the native FFI definitions that the compiler should be able to call directly. AFAIK, it's bound to be more efficient.
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2018-06-03T22:39:53Z pjb: Do you mean the size of the C data? or the size of the Lisp object?
2018-06-03T22:40:12Z ealfonso: size of the lisp object
2018-06-03T22:40:16Z pjb: With CFFI you can ask the foreign-type-size.
2018-06-03T22:40:32Z pjb: Yes, for the lisp object it's implementation dependent whether there's such a function, or even such a notion.
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2018-06-03T22:43:16Z ealfonso: pjb I will try switching to defcfun. how about getting the size of a lisp class (or defstruct)
2018-06-03T22:43:28Z pjb: Well, in ccl it expand to the same as your code.
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2018-06-03T22:43:36Z pjb: and in sbcl too.
2018-06-03T22:43:44Z pjb: So perhaps it's not useful to change.
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2018-06-03T23:18:53Z pjb: minion: memo for beach: apropos 9:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJr81DtSwUc (loop for i below 10 sum i maximizing (sin i) into maxin collect (* i i) into squares finally (print (list maxin squares))) is conforming AFAIK.  it has several accumulations clauses of different types… ;-)
2018-06-03T23:18:54Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-06-04T00:17:23Z aeth: com.informatimago and xelf and ECL are officially ahead of the trend because they've been on Gitlab for forever.
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2018-06-04T00:36:58Z rumbler31: pjb: regarding trust, if I held that mindset I'm not sure how I would have gotten anything done.
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2018-06-04T00:56:20Z aeth: rumbler31: It definitely depends on your domain. For some domains, you have no choice but to pay thousands of dollars for some overpriced specialized software.
2018-06-04T00:56:36Z rumbler31: right
2018-06-04T00:56:43Z aeth: Probably not programming languages these days. Possibly HDLs, though.
2018-06-04T00:57:02Z aeth: Also things like CADs.
2018-06-04T00:57:25Z rumbler31: the discussion I meant to re-start was about debugging tools.  beach mentioned something that suggested that in his experience, paid implementations have better debugging experiences and I wanted them to expound on that
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2018-06-04T00:57:40Z rumbler31: I have no such experience so I wanted to know more
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2018-06-04T01:02:58Z aeth: It wouldn't surprise me. Commerical software like that tends to focus on features to justify upgrades. e.g. integrated Prologs.
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2018-06-04T03:10:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-04T03:10:55Z minion: beach, memo from pjb: apropos 9:17 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJr81DtSwUc (loop for i below 10 sum i maximizing (sin i) into maxin collect (* i i) into squares finally (print (list maxin squares))) is conforming AFAIK.  it has several accumulations clauses of different types… ;-)
2018-06-04T03:11:03Z beach: pjb: Thanks.
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2018-06-04T03:12:40Z beach: rumbler31: I have no experience with commercial Common Lisp implementations, but I hear they are much better than the free ones for debugging.  For my own experience, I still miss using GDB back in the days when I was programming in C.  I find I can't do things with our free Common Lisp implementations that I could do then.
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2018-06-04T03:15:49Z beach: rumbler31: I do know what I would like to see for our free Common Lisp implementations, namely this: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf but it will require significant support from the implementation, so it probably won't happen with the existing free implementations.
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2018-06-04T03:17:32Z akkad: beach: does acl/lw have it?
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2018-06-04T03:18:10Z beach: I have no experience with commercial Common Lisp implementations.
2018-06-04T03:18:31Z akkad: is there any implementation of this you are aware of?
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2018-06-04T03:18:58Z akkad: I see. thought you were contrasting with a commercial implementation
2018-06-04T03:19:16Z beach: Of what?  Of Clordane?  No.  I designed it and nobody has implemented it.
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2018-06-04T03:40:34Z akkad: oh nice
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2018-06-04T03:46:34Z jeosol: Morning beach.
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2018-06-04T03:48:07Z jeosol: I have not gone through your linked pdf in detail, but does your design closely match gdb in c/c++ or it's different with added functionality.
2018-06-04T03:49:38Z jeosol: Also, what do you mean by "significant support from implementation", obviously man hours, but does this also mean it is likely to require lot of implementation details that it is likely to be very different for each free implementation
2018-06-04T03:50:11Z jeosol: also since SBCL is very popular, is this feasible to at least put efforts for that implementation.
2018-06-04T03:50:11Z dtornabene: i'm reading it now beach, but I'm also curious about jeosols second question
2018-06-04T03:51:43Z jeosol: As the designer, you are in better place to push this because it is going to be more clearer to you, and subsequently others who take time to study the document (and who may have used other debugging systems)
2018-06-04T03:52:06Z beach: OK, let's see...
2018-06-04T03:52:30Z beach: jeosol: I did not try to match GDB.  I was considering something I would like for Common Lisp.
2018-06-04T03:53:11Z beach: jeosol: In particular, I won't use different processes.  I want one thread to debug another thread, and the debugged thread could be the debugger.
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2018-06-04T03:53:47Z jeosol: good, just wondering because I use to code in C/C++ but don't remember it that much.
2018-06-04T03:54:03Z beach: jeosol: I am totally confident that I would be unable to convince the maintainers of any current implementation, including SBCL, to add the support that Clordane requires.
2018-06-04T03:54:15Z jeosol: oh really?
2018-06-04T03:54:24Z dtornabene: interesting
2018-06-04T03:54:59Z jeosol: In your estimate, how much work, even if rough estimate,
2018-06-04T03:55:03Z dtornabene: i just finished it btw, seems like the implementation of this on sbcl wouldn't be....momentous? but then I have the barest knowledge of sbcl internals
2018-06-04T03:55:40Z jeosol: You are right, the guys with the knowledge of internals will have to buy into this
2018-06-04T03:55:43Z akkad: beach: fork :P
2018-06-04T03:56:13Z akkad imagines the internals are a art few have a grasp of.
2018-06-04T03:56:19Z beach: jeosol: I don't know SBCL well enough to give an estimate.  It requires compiler support and, as I understand it, the SBCL compiler is very complicated.
2018-06-04T03:56:23Z jeosol: and possibly implement using a style with as little modification to the original code base.
2018-06-04T03:56:46Z jeosol: Ok, I thought as much.
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2018-06-04T03:57:13Z jeosol: if it has to involve working deep in the compiler, then it will require major effort for sure
2018-06-04T03:57:23Z beach: Worse,...
2018-06-04T03:57:50Z beach: The SBCL maintainers will likely say that it might slow down the generated code, and reject it before even considering it.
2018-06-04T03:57:56Z dtornabene: talk about a subject in need of a good book, a serious thorough book on SBCL internals would be *awesome*
2018-06-04T03:57:59Z jeosol: for my applications, I wouldn't say I have not had a need for debugger, but I ensure my systems are testing in very small units, and when CLOS objects are used, I have constructor functions for easy testing.
2018-06-04T03:59:09Z jeosol: however, my debugging probably sucks, combination of inlet and outlet statements to function (stopped this), SLDB, good old print statements, ...
2018-06-04T04:00:03Z jeosol: beach: on the issue of rejecting, it would have been nice if it was even possible to scope out requirements and what might change or be impacted in the context of SBCL
2018-06-04T04:00:41Z jeosol: and also the benefits of having such a functionality in a free implementation.
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2018-06-04T04:01:22Z beach: dtornabene: You have to consider that SBCL has a long history and the internals have very likely become a bit messy over time.
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2018-06-04T04:02:53Z dtornabene: beach: for sure, i spent a few hours recently just reading, taking line counts, investigating the layout.  It seemed like a huge task to get on top of the system as a whole, but its something I'd like to devote a non-trivial amount of time to over the next 12 months or so
2018-06-04T04:03:17Z dtornabene: it seems like something that would be useful to the community and enlightening
2018-06-04T04:03:48Z beach: jeosol: I totally think that we need a more modern implementation.  That is why I am not willing to put any effort into SBCL.  In particular, if I have to convince the current maintainers to make changes that are very unlikely to be accepted, I prefer putting my energy into something more modern.
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2018-06-04T04:04:13Z jeosol: beach: makes sense.
2018-06-04T04:04:30Z jeosol: but what do you mean by "modern"
2018-06-04T04:05:11Z jeosol: modern a la Arc or still CL but better implementation
2018-06-04T04:05:25Z beach: jeosol: One that has first-class global environments, my generic dispatch, my LOOP implementation, my garbage collector, the debugging support I want, etc, etc.
2018-06-04T04:05:58Z jeosol: Beach Common Lisp (BCL)
2018-06-04T04:06:07Z jeosol: nice.
2018-06-04T04:06:15Z jeosol: Steel Bank/Beach Common Lisp
2018-06-04T04:06:42Z beach: jeosol: It is called SICL, which doesn't mean anything.
2018-06-04T04:06:44Z jeosol: Good points. I take it there is not way to implement these new functionalities or add them in existing implementation
2018-06-04T04:07:12Z beach: Don't try to build it: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2018-06-04T04:07:17Z jeosol: so the "SI" means nothing
2018-06-04T04:07:20Z jeosol: ok, thanks for the link
2018-06-04T04:07:21Z beach: Correct.
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2018-06-04T04:08:34Z beach: jeosol: There is always a way to implement them in an existing implementation, but it is a question of how much work it requires, and whether the maintainers are willing to accept it.
2018-06-04T04:09:31Z loke: beach: what GC are you using?
2018-06-04T04:09:32Z jeosol: Very nice. I read the README.
2018-06-04T04:10:06Z beach: loke: Hold on...
2018-06-04T04:10:21Z jeosol: It will really be nice to get a modern implementation
2018-06-04T04:10:53Z jeosol: By the way, are big companies using SBCL or some of the other free implementations, such that they could fund some of these type of projects
2018-06-04T04:11:19Z jeosol: Sometimes, it is not just funding, but interesting and keen participants.
2018-06-04T04:12:22Z jeosol: This could be an opportunity to take CL to be more modern and add more battle tested, and proven libraries so some library class "like Boost C++ libraries" that eventually make their way into the core.
2018-06-04T04:12:33Z beach: loke: A sliding collector for the nurseries (per-thread) and a combination of mark-and-sweep and a traditional malloc/free for the global collector.
2018-06-04T04:12:51Z beach: jeosol: Google is using SBCL.
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2018-06-04T04:13:20Z loke: beach: So it's not compacting?
2018-06-04T04:13:30Z beach: loke: The sliding collector is.
2018-06-04T04:13:36Z loke: beach: I see.
2018-06-04T04:13:52Z beach: [Now, we are going to get the "what about fragmentation" remark]
2018-06-04T04:13:58Z jeosol: I say we apply for grant, so pull some resources, especially with the merits of the new system.
2018-06-04T04:14:17Z beach: As Wilson et all showed a few decades ago, fragmentation only exists in programs that don't do anything useful.
2018-06-04T04:14:18Z loke: beach: Does it have stack-allocation when objects can be proven to have dynamic scope?
2018-06-04T04:14:42Z beach: loke: I am planning that, but I haven't given it much thought.  I want it to be correct first.
2018-06-04T04:15:08Z beach: jeosol: And then who would I pay to implement it with that grant money?
2018-06-04T04:15:10Z loke: The benefit of compaction isn't that fragmentation is sliminated per se, but that allocations can be much faster if the free memory is clustered.
2018-06-04T04:15:22Z beach: loke: I can still do that.
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2018-06-04T04:15:40Z jeosol: Or may be fork off SBCL now, just like the latter from CMUCL back then. But it will likely be more difficult if the base code is messy. For large codes, I know first hand how important it is to get the base right.
2018-06-04T04:15:42Z beach: loke: In the nursery, allocation is just bumping a pointer.
2018-06-04T04:16:02Z jeosol: It is not so much like pay. A committee/trust is formed with you as the oversee.
2018-06-04T04:16:09Z loke: beach: Right. That's what makes GC-language allocations so much faster than C, for example.
2018-06-04T04:16:11Z beach: loke: In the global collector, allocation is made in big blocks to promote many objects at the same time.
2018-06-04T04:16:27Z loke: beach: Makes sense.
2018-06-04T04:16:42Z loke: beach: what does it do when a global object gets GC'ed?
2018-06-04T04:16:52Z akkad: is ironclad not considered secure now? re: statement on "awesome lisp"
2018-06-04T04:16:56Z beach: jeosol: My hunch is that it would be even more work to transform SBCL into a modern implementation than it would be to create a new one.
2018-06-04T04:17:06Z jeosol: It is essentially a project that is funded with the main designer at the helm.
2018-06-04T04:17:38Z jeosol: beach: I agree with you last point. Yes, especially if the design is radical. It may be better to start of a fresh base where things are layered systematically.
2018-06-04T04:17:42Z loke: akkad: Ironclad hasn't had any known vulnerabilities, AFAIK. It doesn't suffer from buffer overruns and such, and the algorithms seems to be solidly implemented.
2018-06-04T04:17:45Z jeosol: *your
2018-06-04T04:17:55Z akkad: loke: thanks
2018-06-04T04:18:03Z loke: akkad: but, it's not much maintained, so support for newer ciphers is lacking.
2018-06-04T04:18:13Z akkad: gotcha.
2018-06-04T04:18:15Z beach: loke: Nothing special.  I have a linked list of two-word header objects that use mark-and-sweep.  When a dead header object is found, the equivalent of free() is called on the "rack" (the part that contains the data).
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2018-06-04T04:18:52Z loke: beach: But didn't you say that a single allocation contains many objects?
2018-06-04T04:19:05Z beach: jeosol: I still wouldn't know how to spend the money from a grant.
2018-06-04T04:19:28Z loke: beach: hire a developer or two?
2018-06-04T04:19:38Z beach: loke: Name two!
2018-06-04T04:19:45Z loke: Hmm
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2018-06-04T04:20:10Z beach: loke: Yes, but objects will have to be free'd individually when they die.
2018-06-04T04:20:16Z loke: I'd propose myself, but there are at least 3 barriers preventing that to happen :-)
2018-06-04T04:20:24Z beach: There you go.
2018-06-04T04:20:29Z loke: beach: oh, you can do that?
2018-06-04T04:20:41Z loke: Single-allocation/multiple-free?
2018-06-04T04:21:07Z loke: that would suggest it's not _actually_ malloc, but rather somthing malloc-like?
2018-06-04T04:21:18Z beach: Sort of, yes.  The nursery could tell the global collector that it needs a bunch of objects at once.
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2018-06-04T04:21:39Z beach: Yes, I am thinking Doug Lea's allocator, but modified.
2018-06-04T04:21:54Z loke: I see.
2018-06-04T04:22:56Z beach: There are plenty of advantages of this scheme.  For one thing, an object in the global heap never moves.
2018-06-04T04:23:08Z beach: This is good for EQ hash-table keys and for functions.
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2018-06-04T04:23:31Z beach: And it avoids cache some invalidation in the processor.
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2018-06-04T04:26:19Z beach: I would need people who 1. are available for hire, 2. know about compiler techniques, 3. know about Common Lisp details, 4. know about garbage collection, 5. know the details of CLOS, 6. know about reusability, maintainability, portability.
2018-06-04T04:26:59Z beach: I am betting that the handful of people who fit that profile are already working on some exiting free or commercial implementation.
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2018-06-04T04:27:38Z loke: beach: True.
2018-06-04T04:27:57Z loke: Seems like that with a lot of interesting CL project.
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2018-06-04T04:28:08Z beach: Indeed.
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2018-06-04T04:28:12Z loke: (where “interesting” is orthogonal to “useful”)
2018-06-04T04:28:12Z jeosol: Well, it also depends, there are people coming up the ranks that may not know everything now
2018-06-04T04:28:21Z loke: And “popular”
2018-06-04T04:28:48Z jeosol: My code uses most CLOS but I had to read Sonja's book, and a bunch of others to get good over time.
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2018-06-04T04:29:13Z jeosol: Looking at the list, I think you want people who are heavily invested in CL overall, and true some may be working on other projects now
2018-06-04T04:29:19Z beach: jeosol: Oh, I see what you are saying.  I should 1. Apply for a grant, and 2. Hire you.
2018-06-04T04:29:26Z jeosol: hahahahahah
2018-06-04T04:29:42Z jeosol: I believe in team work and team effort
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2018-06-04T04:30:22Z jeosol: I am not the most person qualified for this task. What I meant above is the person who has the main design and how all the parts fit, will lead the efforts early on.
2018-06-04T04:30:56Z jeosol: But yes, everything will start with a grant, like some funded project
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2018-06-04T04:31:22Z beach: jeosol: Here is what I think.  I think I should continue doing what I am doing now, i.e. working on the implementation and doing the research to invent techniques of making it modern, good, and fast.  Then, people who are sufficiently knowledgeable and sufficiently interested will show up spontaneously.  Like Bike, heisig, drmeister, etc.  And there are already signals that some more people will join.
2018-06-04T04:31:24Z jeosol: I think it's the team that matters most as long as they believe in the final objective, agree on the common grounds, ..., off and running
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2018-06-04T04:31:44Z beach: jeosol: So I think for this project, it's not the right thing to start with a grant.
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2018-06-04T04:31:51Z jeosol: Well, that is good. I support that
2018-06-04T04:32:07Z jeosol: I didn't know you have gone far with this, hence my grant comment. I thought it is something just starting out.
2018-06-04T04:32:09Z beach: jeosol: Besides, Common Lisp has been off the radar for grant-giving institutions for the past half a century or so.
2018-06-04T04:32:39Z jeosol: If you have gone far, by any means, I would say continue, because changes are likely going to slow and impede things now.
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2018-06-04T04:33:15Z beach: jeosol: The Cleavir compiler framework is already used for Clasp.  And karlosz has a GSoC project to use it for CLISP.  jackdaniel has plans to use it for ECL.  And in Marbella, there were rumors that someone might use it to write a new SBCL compiler.
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2018-06-04T04:33:50Z beach: minion: Please tell jeosol about Cleavir.
2018-06-04T04:33:50Z minion: jeosol: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2018-06-04T04:34:40Z beach: jeosol: And, obviously, the compiler is a HUGE part of a new implementation, so a big chunk of code is already done.
2018-06-04T04:34:46Z jeosol: When I started working on my code/application. I got to a point, where I was considering changing language since people start saying I should consider Clojure. I actually posted this question on Twitter and Paul Graham advised against Lisp, and only agreed when I mentioned my code is heavily CLOS-based
2018-06-04T04:35:13Z jeosol: Eventually, I stayed with it. A buddy told me to use something else as a condition to come along.
2018-06-04T04:35:42Z jeosol: beach: that's great. Cleavir is already since many usage already.
2018-06-04T04:36:46Z beach: The fact that Cleavir can adapt to totally different implementations is an indication that it is modular and maintainable.
2018-06-04T04:36:58Z beach: So it is a good candidate for what I want from a "modern" implementation.
2018-06-04T04:37:08Z jeosol: Clasp is something I planned to take a look at after discussing ML libraries and it was recommend to use clasp and link to other ML/AI libraries and make them accessible via CL
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2018-06-04T04:37:21Z beach: Contrast that with the SBCL compiler that has assumptions about that particular implementation all over the code.
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2018-06-04T04:38:04Z jeosol: I see your point. It is better to start fresh. For large code bases, it usually works better than way and you get more productivity as you add more layers on top.
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2018-06-04T04:39:23Z beach: loke: Interestingly, the fact that the global garbage collector does not move things around, makes this ideal for interoperation with foreign code like C.  But such interoperation is not one of the goals of SICL. :)
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2018-06-04T04:40:11Z jeosol: beach: to echo your "reusability, maintainability, ...", point, it is very point and you can see from the use of Cleavir component in several projects.
2018-06-04T04:40:22Z jeosol: s/point/important
2018-06-04T04:41:27Z beach: Right.  I spend a lot of time on that stuff.  I am not perfect of course, so occasionally I get it wrong.
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2018-06-04T04:41:58Z karlosz: to add to beach's point, the Cleavir to CLISP interface is only about 900 lines or so
2018-06-04T04:42:19Z beach: Wow.  That's great!
2018-06-04T04:42:27Z karlosz: and it does the translation in a linear pass :)
2018-06-04T04:42:39Z karlosz: since dominator calculations are already all there
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2018-06-04T04:45:46Z jeosol: karlosz: thanks for that info
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2018-06-04T04:49:35Z beach: So the goal of Cleavir is not only to provide a compiler framework, but also to include all kinds of modern compiler optimization techniques so that a client implementation can pick and choose what optimizations it wants to apply and in what situation.
2018-06-04T04:50:29Z jeosol: more like a consistent base for all implementation to pick from
2018-06-04T04:50:53Z beach: Some of these optimization techniques can be used as published.  Some need to be adapted to the specific situation of Common Lisp (nested functions, threads, closures, etc).  Others need to be invented from scratch (like the path replication stuff we published in ELS).
2018-06-04T04:50:55Z jeosol: should reduce the overall work in the implementations since there is a common base.
2018-06-04T04:51:02Z beach: Exactly.
2018-06-04T04:51:15Z beach: jeosol: Now try to do that with (say) the SBCL compiler.
2018-06-04T04:51:33Z beach: jeosol: It would take more effort than a total rewrite.
2018-06-04T04:51:44Z jeosol: beach: you got me. I am convinced and sold. Definitely not possible, so forking it wouldn't work
2018-06-04T04:51:56Z beach: Good! :)
2018-06-04T04:52:17Z jeosol: Layered software/code is a beauty, it takes almost no effort to add new features or corner cases.
2018-06-04T04:52:44Z karlosz: one big obstacle to compilers is just visualizing the IR. sbcl still odesn't have any good tools for doing that, even after 30 years of existence
2018-06-04T04:53:04Z jeosol: It will definitely be more work
2018-06-04T04:53:11Z karlosz: whereas i can say that the cleavir visualization tools really cut down on debugging time
2018-06-04T04:53:20Z jeosol: hasn't been 30 years, or going back to CMUCL
2018-06-04T04:53:26Z jeosol: *has it?
2018-06-04T04:53:36Z karlosz: going back to CMUCL, the compiler is practically the same
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2018-06-04T04:53:51Z karlosz: in fact, if you want o learn about sbcl internals, its probably still better to go back to the cmucl docs
2018-06-04T04:53:53Z jeosol: Merci
2018-06-04T04:54:08Z beach: Yeah, the Graphviz visualization stuff really helps.
2018-06-04T04:54:19Z jeosol: that's what I did, I started with CMUCL before switching completely circa 2008/9
2018-06-04T04:55:02Z jeosol: With critical mass, SICL will start moving along
2018-06-04T04:55:51Z beach: jeosol: Since perhaps you don't fit the profile for Cleavir or SICL, you might instead want to consider a project on this list: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html :)
2018-06-04T04:56:41Z loke: Climaxima needs developers! :-)
2018-06-04T04:56:43Z beach: But I assume you are busy with your own stuff, just like most other people.
2018-06-04T04:56:54Z beach: loke: Oh, that too.  I should include it in the list.
2018-06-04T04:57:00Z loke: :-)
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2018-06-04T04:57:32Z beach: Also CLOSType, a Common Lisp implementation of OpenType stuff.
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2018-06-04T04:57:58Z loke: Indeed
2018-06-04T04:58:04Z jeosol: I have been trying to learn ASDF as Fare is planning to leave at some point so he told me. Beach, I can work on multiple projects. Most of the work I was doing on that application is for the backend which is mostly complete
2018-06-04T04:58:08Z loke: That, and a font shaper.
2018-06-04T04:58:44Z beach: "shaper"?
2018-06-04T04:59:00Z jeosol: beach: the list of libraries is part of the overall SICL offering?
2018-06-04T04:59:07Z loke: beach: basically what Harfbuzz does.
2018-06-04T04:59:17Z beach: jeosol: No, it's part of my LispOS plan.
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2018-06-04T04:59:29Z loke: It processes text, and generates a sequence of glyphs and their precise location where they should be drawn
2018-06-04T05:00:05Z beach: Got it.
2018-06-04T05:01:06Z beach: jeosol: SICL is only one line in that list: "A Lisp system with first-class global environments"
2018-06-04T05:02:08Z jeosol: I see. Impressive list.
2018-06-04T05:02:21Z jeosol: Anyone working on the graphviz one
2018-06-04T05:03:13Z LdBeth: loke: does that support ligatures or plans to support it?
2018-06-04T05:03:26Z jeosol: Library for two-dimensional graph layout
2018-06-04T05:03:56Z jeosol: I guess there is still more stuff to be added especially in the utilities part
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2018-06-04T05:04:03Z loke: LdBeth: Yes. The shaper is what provides that
2018-06-04T05:04:30Z loke: LdBeth: McCLIM already supports it in my Freetype branch. What Beach is talking abou tis a pure-Lisp implementation.
2018-06-04T05:04:43Z jeosol: are you considering things around data manipulation arrays (e.g., numpy, pandas as in pythong), machine learning/AI, even if down the line
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2018-06-04T05:16:07Z beach: jeosol: I don't think anyone is working on the Graphviz stuff.
2018-06-04T05:16:22Z beach: jeosol: There are many more things to be added.
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2018-06-04T05:17:15Z beach: jeosol: For applications, I am only able to write a list of the ones that I personally would like to see and that I know that we don't have.
2018-06-04T05:17:38Z jeosol: my background is mostly in the optimization space
2018-06-04T05:17:59Z jeosol: I have looked at CLML and Gabor Melis MGL code, they have very useful components
2018-06-04T05:18:05Z beach: Like linear programming and stuff?
2018-06-04T05:18:56Z jeosol: Yeah, I did some of that stuff, OR area, most optimization in general
2018-06-04T05:19:03Z beach: I see.
2018-06-04T05:19:37Z beach: My wife was on the CPLEX team before retiring last January.
2018-06-04T05:19:52Z jeosol: wow, really
2018-06-04T05:19:57Z jeosol: that's insane man....
2018-06-04T05:20:09Z beach: She was in charge of the documentation.
2018-06-04T05:20:10Z jeosol: no way, that means me and her shouldn't be in the same room
2018-06-04T05:20:22Z beach: Heh.
2018-06-04T05:20:39Z beach: It might actually happen if you come to ELS some time.
2018-06-04T05:20:41Z jeosol: people talking about optimization tend to be carried array. very impressive, I need to take a look at the stuff again.
2018-06-04T05:20:51Z jeosol: arguing about constraints, convergence, etc
2018-06-04T05:21:46Z jeosol: I think there are expertise littered around that can be converged which is why I mentioned the effort of the individuals involved.
2018-06-04T05:21:57Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-04T05:22:16Z beach: OK, Monday mornings are crazy around here.  I'll be off and on for the next few hours.
2018-06-04T05:22:19Z jeosol: oh I will definitely come to ELS. I submitted an abstract for a conference in China and one due next week for a conference here. This is also the lisp work
2018-06-04T05:22:34Z beach: Great!
2018-06-04T05:22:37Z jeosol: No worries, it is past midnight here, should log out soon.
2018-06-04T05:22:51Z jeosol: But good stuff and thanks for the link.
2018-06-04T05:23:04Z jeosol: You work at U Bordeaux or where?
2018-06-04T05:24:00Z beach: Yes, but I am close to retirement.
2018-06-04T05:24:28Z beach: So moving away from direct involvement, spending more time on my own stuff.
2018-06-04T05:25:07Z jeosol: Ok. Nice.
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2018-06-04T06:56:15Z hajovonta: hi
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2018-06-04T07:04:09Z shrdlu68: hajovonta: Good Morning
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2018-06-04T08:41:36Z hajovonta: I wanted to contribute to Rosetta Code, but the site is not working properly
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2018-06-04T09:38:06Z jmercouris: how do I get the binary representation for an object in lisp?
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2018-06-04T09:38:28Z jmercouris: I want to go like this "some string" --> 01101101010101010101 --> "some string"
2018-06-04T09:39:01Z shrdlu68: String->octets, then octets->bit vector.
2018-06-04T09:39:39Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: how does one go from bit vector back to the object?
2018-06-04T09:40:00Z shrdlu68: Same route in reverse.
2018-06-04T09:40:51Z jmercouris: Is there a function octects->String?
2018-06-04T09:41:02Z jmercouris: I bet there is, that seems obvious
2018-06-04T09:41:11Z shrdlu68: String->octets is widely implented, for example in ironclad and babel.
2018-06-04T09:42:11Z jmercouris: Looks promising, thanks!
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2018-06-04T09:43:28Z beach: jmercouris: You couldn't get from a binary representation to an object in general.
2018-06-04T09:43:44Z jmercouris: beach: basically only for "primitive data types"?
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2018-06-04T09:43:49Z jmercouris: there is nothing like Python's pickle in lisp?
2018-06-04T09:44:32Z beach: jmercouris: It might work with some restrictions, yes.  But it would be very implementation specific.
2018-06-04T09:44:49Z beach: jmercouris: You would have to tell me what Python's pickle is doing.
2018-06-04T09:44:59Z shrdlu68: There are several serialization libraries, perhaps those that do binary serialization could be useful.
2018-06-04T09:45:11Z jmercouris: beach: "The pickle module implements a fundamental, but powerful algorithm for serializing and de-serializing a Python object structure. "Pickling" is the process whereby a Python object hierarchy is converted into a byte stream, and "unpickling" is the inverse operation"...
2018-06-04T09:45:41Z jmercouris: beach: are there unsettable fields/properties about an object in common-lisp?
2018-06-04T09:45:48Z beach: Sure, you can serialize things.  But that's not the same as getting the binary representation.
2018-06-04T09:45:51Z jmercouris: e.g. during the reserialization there are some things you could not recreate?
2018-06-04T09:46:18Z jmercouris: what is the difference between serializing to binary, and the binary representation?
2018-06-04T09:46:50Z beach: I don't know where to start.
2018-06-04T09:46:59Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: babel has both string-to-octets and octets-to-string
2018-06-04T09:47:27Z beach: PRINT is a very good serializer.  It produces output in the form of characters.  If you convert those to UTF-8 as most Common Lisp systems would, then you serialize to binary.
2018-06-04T09:47:37Z shka: jmercouris: you can use cl-store
2018-06-04T09:47:39Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Yep, so does ironclad and most packages that deal with networks protocols.
2018-06-04T09:47:41Z beach: jmercouris: But that has nothing to do with how the object is represented internally.
2018-06-04T09:47:44Z shka: it is simple to use
2018-06-04T09:48:04Z jmercouris: beach: well, I am not necessarily interested in how it is represented internally, just in a way to serialize and deserialize the objects
2018-06-04T09:48:18Z jmercouris: and to take the serialized form, and be able to input it in some reserializer and create an "identical" object
2018-06-04T09:48:19Z beach: jmercouris: And, you can de-serialize with READ.  But there are restrictions, just like there must be in Python.  You can't get an EQ object back.
2018-06-04T09:48:32Z jmercouris: Right, that is what I was thinking when I asked about "unsettable properties"
2018-06-04T09:48:40Z beach: jmercouris: "how do I get the binary representation for an object in lisp?"
2018-06-04T09:48:54Z jmercouris: ah yes, my question was stupid indeed
2018-06-04T09:48:57Z jmercouris: sorry!
2018-06-04T09:49:02Z shka: cl-store works on lists, vectors, instances of classes, structs (for sbcl), hash-tables..
2018-06-04T09:49:13Z shka: it basicly just works
2018-06-04T09:49:15Z beach: jmercouris: I recommend PRINT and READ.
2018-06-04T09:49:16Z shka: you can use it
2018-06-04T09:49:19Z phoe: a human-readable text representation is a very specific case of a binary representation of an object
2018-06-04T09:49:27Z phoe: but nonetheless a binary representation
2018-06-04T09:49:43Z jmercouris: beach: The problem is, I need to be in binary
2018-06-04T09:49:53Z beach: I just told you that it is.
2018-06-04T09:49:53Z jmercouris: the reason being that I have this idea I'm going to try to do
2018-06-04T09:50:10Z jmercouris: okay fine, I would then need to take the character representation and turn it into a binary stream of some text encoding and decode it
2018-06-04T09:50:27Z beach: jmercouris: PRINT already does that.
2018-06-04T09:50:35Z beach: jmercouris: And READ does the opposite.
2018-06-04T09:50:47Z _death: in many cases, READ is unsuitable.. and serialization of arbitrary objects is often not a good idea anyway.. it's better to think about your external representation without reference to any particular programming language
2018-06-04T09:51:09Z jmercouris: I agree, pickling in general is a bad idea
2018-06-04T09:51:15Z jmercouris: I just want to test a really specific use case
2018-06-04T09:51:25Z jmercouris: I would like to turn a string into a set of QR codes (as a video)
2018-06-04T09:51:41Z jmercouris: and then have a camera watch the video, and decode the video of QR codes
2018-06-04T09:51:44Z beach: That is yet another, very different, question.
2018-06-04T09:51:52Z jmercouris: I just wanted a simple way to get a bunch of bits for some representation of some thing to test with
2018-06-04T09:52:34Z jmercouris: I know about existing CL QR code libs, I might end up inventing a version of my own, but I just thought it was a cool idea
2018-06-04T09:52:45Z jmercouris: you could sort of stream a whole bunch of data in video format, to transfer more substantial things
2018-06-04T09:52:47Z shka: jmercouris: but you will need constant size of binary?
2018-06-04T09:52:53Z shka: isn't that the case?
2018-06-04T09:52:57Z jmercouris: shka: what do you mean?
2018-06-04T09:53:12Z _death: so you can encode the string to an octet vector, then use that to produce a QR code, and do the other way around on the side side
2018-06-04T09:53:22Z jmercouris: _death: yeah, exactly
2018-06-04T09:53:24Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: See also: https://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/flexi-streams/doc/#strings
2018-06-04T09:53:26Z jmercouris: which is the simplest case I aws thinking about
2018-06-04T09:53:27Z shka: if i serialize very long string i will get large binary
2018-06-04T09:53:37Z shka: if i serialize short string, i will get small binary
2018-06-04T09:53:53Z shka: but qr code can represent only fixed sized data, yes?
2018-06-04T09:54:06Z jmercouris: shka: yeah sure, there will have to be something in the protocol to show "start of sequence" "end of sequence"
2018-06-04T09:54:17Z jmercouris: shka: No, you can pad the end of the QR code with 0s
2018-06-04T09:54:28Z jmercouris: it's effectively a list of 0s and 1s, at least that's what I got from the wikipedia article
2018-06-04T09:54:40Z jmercouris: I won't implement the QR Code standard per se, just something akin to it
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2018-06-04T09:56:09Z shka: you are not quite specyfic :]
2018-06-04T09:56:13Z jmercouris: beach: I'm a little bit confused, is there some way to do (print "some string") --> 0010101010101011?
2018-06-04T09:56:33Z jmercouris: Okay, maybe again my wording was wrong
2018-06-04T09:56:38Z shka: jmercouris: not in the standard
2018-06-04T09:56:44Z jmercouris: A representation IN BINARY
2018-06-04T09:56:53Z shka: but you can use one of many binary serialization libs
2018-06-04T09:56:54Z jmercouris: I should try to be a little more precise I think
2018-06-04T09:56:59Z _death: you need to first pick an encoding.. there is no "the binary representation"
2018-06-04T09:57:05Z jmercouris: yes, fine, ascii
2018-06-04T09:57:06Z shka: if you just want to handle strings, you can even simply roll your own
2018-06-04T09:57:12Z beach: jmercouris: There is no standard way (Common Lisp or otherwise) to represent a string in binary form.
2018-06-04T09:57:39Z jmercouris: beach: Is there a standard way to represent a string in binary form in lisp given a particular encoding?
2018-06-04T09:57:41Z _death: jmercouris: so, (babel:string-to-octets "foo" :encoding :ascii) gives you an octet vector.. and you can work on it bit by bit if you like
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2018-06-04T09:58:22Z jmercouris: Yeah, I'm going to do that for now, I am just trying to understand a little bit more about what beach is saying
2018-06-04T09:58:25Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, of course.  In the worst case, you have a table with that encoding and you concatenate representations for each character.
2018-06-04T09:58:39Z jmercouris: Okay, I was thinking for a second there might be a built in lib or something in the standard
2018-06-04T09:58:42Z jmercouris: I think I understand now
2018-06-04T09:58:54Z beach: jmercouris: If you are lucky, your Common Lisp implementation uses Unicode internally, so that the table is already present.
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2018-06-04T10:00:26Z beach: jmercouris: In which case, you can do something like (loop for char across string do (format ... "...~b" char)
2018-06-04T10:02:37Z jmercouris: hmm, could be
2018-06-04T10:03:24Z thoxdg: jmercouris: babel is the standard way
2018-06-04T10:03:26Z beach: (loop for char across "hello" do (format t "~8,'0,b" (char-code char)))
2018-06-04T10:04:20Z thoxdg: if you use char-code you usually get unicode code points which is not a binary encoding
2018-06-04T10:04:30Z beach: jmercouris: That prints: 0110100001100101011011000110110001101111
2018-06-04T10:05:43Z beach is eagerly waiting to hear what is wrong with his answer this time.
2018-06-04T10:06:00Z shrdlu68: Many ways to skin a cat.
2018-06-04T10:06:35Z uint_ is now known as uint
2018-06-04T10:06:48Z thoxdg: is anyone looking for a lisp project ?
2018-06-04T10:07:01Z thoxdg: i need help
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2018-06-04T10:07:34Z thoxdg: http://github.com/cffi-posix/ http://github.com/cl-remap/ http://github.com/RailsOnLisp
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2018-06-04T10:08:22Z thoxdg: standard posix interface using cffi, virtual file system, agile web
2018-06-04T10:08:25Z shka: i se links
2018-06-04T10:08:31Z shrdlu68: A while back I ventured into compression, and wrote an arithmetic coding implementation in CL. It appears modern lossless compression has been reduced to a statistical modelling challenge, i.e, given a stream of bits, try and predict the next bit in the stream. Is anyone interested in creating a prediction function and testing it? I could create a library that makes testing out prediction functions easy
2018-06-04T10:08:37Z shrdlu68: through and extensible arithmetic coding implementation.
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2018-06-04T10:10:23Z thoxdg: shrdlu68: should this also solve linear programming ?
2018-06-04T10:11:05Z thoxdg: we're only lacking in semantic data about programming languages, they even self compile now
2018-06-04T10:11:30Z thoxdg: i'm thinking about canonical representations of program code
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2018-06-04T10:12:39Z shrdlu68: thoxdg: Not sure, a prediction function simply receives a stream of bits and outputs the probability that the next bit will be 1.
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2018-06-04T10:13:15Z shka: does not sound terribly complicated to be honest
2018-06-04T10:13:16Z thoxdg: shrdlu68: like a markov chain ?
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2018-06-04T10:13:38Z shrdlu68: thoxdg: Yes, a simple Markov chain outdoes gzip, for example.
2018-06-04T10:13:44Z thoxdg: all in all it's just a convolution
2018-06-04T10:13:53Z shrdlu68: In terms of compression ratio, not speed.
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2018-06-04T10:14:27Z shrdlu68: It's a very interesting problem space.
2018-06-04T10:15:20Z shrdlu68: shka: It is. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Context_mixing
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2018-06-04T10:15:27Z holycow: hi all
2018-06-04T10:15:41Z holycow: i'm running debian 9 and trying to install sketch via quicklisp
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2018-06-04T10:15:54Z thoxdg: well if you don't represent entropy of your prediction function the model should leak entropy
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2018-06-04T10:16:01Z holycow: i get the following error:  Failed to find the TRUENAME of /usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-cffi/toolchain/package.lisp: No such file or directory
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2018-06-04T10:16:30Z holycow: fair enough.  cl-cffi is installed and /tolchain/ppackage.lisp is not there
2018-06-04T10:16:36Z holycow: anyone else run into this problem?
2018-06-04T10:16:57Z thoxdg: holycow: i don't know cl-cffi, only github.com/cffi/cffi
2018-06-04T10:17:23Z jmercouris: beach: I'm not just waiting to tell you how you are wrong :D, I was afk
2018-06-04T10:17:32Z jmercouris: beach: mostly I am asking to understand
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2018-06-04T10:17:52Z jmercouris: s/mostly/most of the time
2018-06-04T10:17:55Z thoxdg: maybe you can have better luck with quicklisp/cffi
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2018-06-04T10:18:32Z holycow: thoxdg: well let me try uninstalling and see what ql does
2018-06-04T10:18:35Z holycow: good idea
2018-06-04T10:19:00Z thoxdg: if you wan to follow sources : http://github.com/thodg/repo
2018-06-04T10:19:04Z thoxdg: want*
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2018-06-04T10:20:57Z thoxdg: shrdlu68: how is the actual binary result not a valid compression function ?
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2018-06-04T10:22:50Z thoxdg: for self teaching of rnn for instance
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2018-06-04T10:29:46Z thoxdg: is there a way for clisp to not load extension packages ?
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2018-06-04T10:39:52Z holycow: allright, got it working
2018-06-04T10:39:55Z holycow: thanks  thoxdg
2018-06-04T10:41:18Z thoxdg: cffi is awesome
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2018-06-04T10:41:41Z thoxdg: is it netsplit or quiet ?
2018-06-04T10:42:22Z holycow: i did not see a large split, so a bit of both?
2018-06-04T10:45:24Z thoxdg: does clozurecl run on bsd ?
2018-06-04T10:45:33Z thoxdg: or ecl
2018-06-04T10:45:55Z holycow: i don't know, sorry.  maybe someone else does.
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2018-06-04T11:02:21Z shangul: https://apaste.info/2pWi => I tried to read contents of a file. This is SBCL. Where was I wrong?
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2018-06-04T11:11:27Z scymtym: shangul: do you want to read the contents as Common Lisp code or as a string?
2018-06-04T11:12:06Z shangul: scymtym, I want to learn. if you give me something that I may read more, that would fine
2018-06-04T11:12:22Z shangul: I just wanted to read all texts and store it in a variable
2018-06-04T11:12:27Z shangul: and then write it to console
2018-06-04T11:13:28Z scymtym: shangul: if you know how to use libraries, you can use the function ALEXANDRIA:READ-FILE-INTO-STRING to do exactly that
2018-06-04T11:14:31Z shangul: okay, but what's wrong in my code? purpose of read and with-open-file is something else than I'm supposing?
2018-06-04T11:15:56Z scymtym: the function CL:READ is for reading Common Lisp code from a stream. also, READ only reads a single form, not everything in the file
2018-06-04T11:16:28Z shangul: a single form?you mean a single line?
2018-06-04T11:16:59Z scymtym: no, a form is chunk of Common Lisp code
2018-06-04T11:17:36Z shangul: a '(something...)'?
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2018-06-04T11:17:54Z scymtym: basically, yes
2018-06-04T11:18:00Z scymtym: you can use CL:READ-LINE to read one line (as a string) at a time. there is no builtin function to read a whole file
2018-06-04T11:18:32Z shangul: thanks
2018-06-04T11:18:37Z scymtym: if you are just starting, reading a book might be a good idea
2018-06-04T11:18:46Z scymtym: minion: tell shangul about pcl
2018-06-04T11:18:46Z minion: shangul: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-06-04T11:18:50Z scymtym: minion: tell shangul about gentle
2018-06-04T11:18:50Z minion: shangul: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2018-06-04T11:19:15Z shangul: I'm on the first book, now.
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2018-06-04T11:19:17Z scymtym: the former is supposed to be suitable for people with programming experience
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2018-06-04T11:19:39Z scymtym: great, you should be all set, then
2018-06-04T11:19:41Z shangul: yeah some people here suggested that to me. as I already know a few languages
2018-06-04T11:19:55Z shangul: scymtym, but how about the second?
2018-06-04T11:20:35Z scymtym: i don't know anything about it personally, but it is often recommended here to people without programming experience
2018-06-04T11:21:07Z shangul: thanks again
2018-06-04T11:21:20Z scymtym: shangul: i have to go to a meeting now. good luck and maybe give ALEXANDRIA:READ-FILE-INTO-STRING a shot
2018-06-04T11:22:09Z shangul: okay, I'll do
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2018-06-04T11:24:01Z shangul: minion: Do you like banana?
2018-06-04T11:24:01Z minion: Do you like banana: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/Do you like banana?source" contains illegal character #\  at position 24..
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2018-06-04T11:28:40Z flip214: minion: do you encode your%3f inputs?
2018-06-04T11:28:40Z minion: do you encode your%3f inputs: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/do you encode your? inputs" contains illegal character #\  at position 24..
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2018-06-04T11:37:43Z shrdlu68: thodg: I don't understand the question.
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2018-06-04T12:00:11Z rumbler31: minion: you're position 24
2018-06-04T12:00:11Z minion: what's up?
2018-06-04T12:00:18Z rumbler31: minion: you're position 24?
2018-06-04T12:00:18Z minion: what's up?
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2018-06-04T12:03:00Z flip214: minion: you%20should%20encode%20spaces.
2018-06-04T12:03:00Z minion: what's up?
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2018-06-04T12:03:02Z flip214: minion: you%20should%20encode%20spaces?
2018-06-04T12:03:02Z minion: what's up?
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2018-06-04T12:09:47Z phoe: FYI: you can also molest minion on query
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2018-06-04T12:24:23Z thodg: i just wrote this https://cliki.net/cffi-posix
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2018-06-04T12:24:47Z thodg: any feedback ?
2018-06-04T12:27:36Z hjek: thodg: nice overview. there's not that much documentation when you follow the links to github, or on the cliki itself, so perhaps a few links to relevant resources might be good?
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2018-06-04T12:29:36Z thodg: hjek: they're trivial wrappers so the POSIX doc is sufficient
2018-06-04T12:30:57Z thodg: or even the headers themselves, it's truly for C coders to discover Lisp
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2018-06-04T12:31:23Z hjek: not for Lisp coders to discover C?
2018-06-04T12:31:54Z thodg: hjek: well why not but it's a big world with many operating systems conforming more or less to a few APIs
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2018-06-04T12:32:14Z thodg: but cffi-grovel provides good abstractions
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2018-06-04T12:32:51Z thodg: even when you wrap function calls, the flags differ from systems to others
2018-06-04T12:33:06Z thodg: so the os manuals still apply
2018-06-04T12:34:49Z thodg: what is not written is that each package is nicknamed without cffi-prefix so if one day you have a posix implementation in CL the wrapper code still applies
2018-06-04T12:34:54Z thodg: wrapped*
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2018-06-04T12:38:36Z thodg: it would prove it's only an artificial link to C to maintain a UNIX system
2018-06-04T12:38:46Z thodg: or if Mezzano starts copying UNIX
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2018-06-04T12:43:59Z thodg: hjek: what i meant is that unix manuals are available for almost all functions but you're right some documentation is due
2018-06-04T12:46:07Z thodg: i was wondering about why there are so many cffi wrappers around almost for each webserver, and i found out that the UNIX way of sorting functions in header files is good enough for most purposes
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2018-06-04T13:02:04Z hajovonta: is there some good introductory read on implementing simple DSLs in Common Lisp?
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2018-06-04T13:05:32Z thodg: hajovonta: i don't know, all the Lisp I wrote could be called DSLs
2018-06-04T13:05:39Z thodg: right ?
2018-06-04T13:06:03Z thodg: or do you mean like LOOP ?
2018-06-04T13:06:17Z hajovonta: right; there are a few points, maybe I would leave out parentheses
2018-06-04T13:07:04Z hajovonta: from the beginning and end of the command, definitely; and from the middle of the commands, maybe
2018-06-04T13:07:07Z thodg: lisp is very fluid so what you write can be very close to actually writing domain language in Lisp
2018-06-04T13:07:18Z beach: hajovonta: On Lisp is basically all about DSLs.
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2018-06-04T13:13:09Z hajovonta: thanks - I look at it again, it was a long time I have read that
2018-06-04T13:13:55Z hajovonta: I personally like parentheses, but soon I will demo CL for my colleagues and I want to present some simple and useful examples
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2018-06-04T13:24:39Z beach: hajovonta: Don't demo it for your colleagues.
2018-06-04T13:24:57Z beach: hajovonta: Even if you hide the parentheses, they very likely won't be convinced.
2018-06-04T13:25:11Z beach: hajovonta: Once you say it's Common Lisp under the hood, they will lose interest.
2018-06-04T13:25:46Z jackdaniel: say it is a cool new language inspired by the javascript (but it doesn't work on the browser)
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2018-06-04T13:25:48Z hajovonta: I don't really want to convince them, they are interested in CL already, just want to show how new syntax can be introduced, in some simple way.
2018-06-04T13:26:23Z shrdlu68: ... | grep -vi "lisp"
2018-06-04T13:26:42Z hajovonta: we hold demo sessions for each other with lesser-known languages
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2018-06-04T13:28:47Z thodg: hajovonta: http://quickdocs.org/infix-math/
2018-06-04T13:29:01Z thodg: like that ?
2018-06-04T13:29:10Z beach: hajovonta: Oh, that's a nice idea.
2018-06-04T13:29:46Z hajovonta: thodg: right, thanks
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2018-06-04T13:48:31Z makomo: hello everyone
2018-06-04T13:48:42Z makomo: hajovonta: that's pretty neat. i have one great example that might be worth showing
2018-06-04T13:48:57Z makomo: hajovonta: Let Over Lambda, Chapter 7 (i think), Sorting Networks
2018-06-04T13:49:10Z makomo: well, actually, that's not really an example of a DSL
2018-06-04T13:49:18Z makomo: it's more about the power of macros
2018-06-04T13:49:26Z hajovonta: i know that. it's fascinating
2018-06-04T13:49:28Z makomo: but still, i think it's worthwhile, because it's a nice example imo
2018-06-04T13:49:30Z makomo: yeah :-)
2018-06-04T13:49:51Z makomo: you could of course mention LOOP
2018-06-04T13:50:12Z hajovonta: i know i will have the question "what are macros good for", and I want to prepare for that specific question
2018-06-04T13:51:26Z makomo: yup. i got the question that's basically "how is this different from a higher-order function?"
2018-06-04T13:51:38Z dlowe: macros are code generating extensions to the compiler.
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2018-06-04T13:51:47Z makomo: because the macro i told my friend about was "just" introducing some bindings
2018-06-04T13:52:05Z dlowe: You know how sometimes people will write a script to generate code in the build cycle, and it's always terrible?
2018-06-04T13:52:10Z makomo: but the sorting network example is really great, you just can't do that anywhere else
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2018-06-04T13:52:37Z dlowe: You can generate lisp code during compilation and make it solid enough to be awesome.
2018-06-04T13:52:40Z makomo: dlowe: that's also a very nice comparison, i used it a lot of times
2018-06-04T13:53:03Z dlowe: There's also a macro floating around that does a string-switch with a minimum number of comparisons by analyzing the strings.
2018-06-04T13:53:17Z dlowe: string-case I should say
2018-06-04T13:53:17Z makomo: ohhh right, by paul khuong
2018-06-04T13:53:24Z makomo: string-case it's called i think
2018-06-04T13:53:31Z makomo: you should definitely show that one too hajovonta
2018-06-04T13:53:46Z makomo: here's the beauty https://github.com/pkhuong/string-case/blob/master/string-case.lisp
2018-06-04T13:54:08Z makomo: again, this is more about macros than about dsls, but still
2018-06-04T13:54:09Z dlowe: well, the macro implementatino is rarely beautiful
2018-06-04T13:54:14Z dlowe: that's kind of the piont
2018-06-04T13:54:18Z dlowe: wow, I can't type today
2018-06-04T13:54:43Z makomo: all macros are beautiful, even the ugly ones :-)
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2018-06-04T13:55:13Z makomo: you could show them the once-only macro just to freak them out with lots of backquotes and commas peppered all over the place
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2018-06-04T13:55:59Z makomo: hajovonta: oh, setf of course!
2018-06-04T13:56:06Z jmercouris: https://gist.github.com/8175a511534c5b08608728e1a3e56b91 any idea what's going on?
2018-06-04T13:56:14Z jmercouris: I attempt to search in a lisp buffer and that happens
2018-06-04T13:56:43Z jmercouris: happens even without slime open
2018-06-04T13:56:46Z hajovonta: i expect the idea of pushing new definitions into a running image will be novel enough for the first time
2018-06-04T13:56:46Z jmercouris: which is what really doesn't make sense to me
2018-06-04T13:56:55Z shka: jmercouris: emacs question i think
2018-06-04T13:57:25Z jmercouris: shka: yeah, but #emacs was not very helpful
2018-06-04T13:57:27Z jmercouris: I guess I'll ask again
2018-06-04T13:58:28Z hajovonta: makomo i plan to demonstrate some control execution changing macros, which is unique to lisp
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2018-06-04T13:58:42Z makomo: hm, like?
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2018-06-04T13:59:07Z hajovonta: for a simple example we can implement three-way if.
2018-06-04T13:59:21Z makomo: ah, the "arhitmetic if" from on lisp?
2018-06-04T13:59:25Z makomo: positive, zero, negative?
2018-06-04T13:59:27Z hajovonta: yes
2018-06-04T13:59:29Z makomo: mhm
2018-06-04T13:59:40Z makomo: that's a nice simple example i guess
2018-06-04T13:59:46Z hajovonta: yep, i knew i read it somewhere :)
2018-06-04T13:59:50Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-04T14:00:02Z makomo: however, i usually feel that trivial examples do a poor/bad job of explaining to people why something is useful
2018-06-04T14:00:11Z makomo: it's like the dreaded Animal and Shape examples of OOP
2018-06-04T14:00:15Z makomo: it drives me nuts
2018-06-04T14:00:46Z makomo: i.e. they're usually followed with stuff like "wooow, so what, why not just write 2 ifs, is that so hard?"
2018-06-04T14:01:57Z makomo: maybe at that point you should emphasize that it's about communicating intent and inventing a new vocabulary, so that the communication between people is "smoother"
2018-06-04T14:02:07Z schweers: It took me the longest time to really get macros (and there are of course still aspects of it which I don’t yet understand), but I really never understood the hostility some people seem to feel towards the idea.
2018-06-04T14:02:16Z makomo: i compare it to math a lot of times. mathematicians are great at inventing terminology and languages
2018-06-04T14:02:19Z hajovonta: Let over Lambda has some nice advanced macro examples, injections, captures, stuff like that. But I'm not sure if it can be simply demonstrated. A few weeks ago we had a discussion when we talked about closures, "they are not really necessary, I could solve all my problems without them so far"
2018-06-04T14:02:30Z shrdlu68: I think with-open-file, and macros like it, best demonstrate macros.
2018-06-04T14:03:08Z makomo: hajovonta: at that point give them an example which has closures as its canonical solutions
2018-06-04T14:03:11Z schweers: shrdlu68: maybe generally macros which prevent easy to make mistakes
2018-06-04T14:03:15Z makomo: for example, the good old "sorting with a comparator" problem
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2018-06-04T14:03:35Z beach: schweers: I can explain that.  If a person has spent a significant time with a language without macros like this, they will have had to produce a lot of boilerplate code.  Now, if they discover that they could have avoided all that work if they had used a language with such macros, their mind can not accept this idea.
2018-06-04T14:03:46Z makomo: shrdlu68: that's a good example i'd say. it should also be mentioned along with the RAII idiom
2018-06-04T14:04:28Z hajovonta: what's that?
2018-06-04T14:04:31Z hajovonta: the RAII idiom
2018-06-04T14:04:40Z schweers: huh.  so you mean I simply got lucky to know about macros before spending my career writing boilerplate code?  I guess I have to think about this some more
2018-06-04T14:04:40Z beach: schweers: So the mind reacts by declaring that this feature is useless.  And in fact, these people must declare it so that everyone else is convinced as well.  If needed, they will go to great trouble, like ridiculing people for using macros, etc.
2018-06-04T14:04:43Z makomo: hajovonta: Resource Acquisition Is Initialization
2018-06-04T14:04:53Z beach: schweers: No, no.
2018-06-04T14:05:09Z schweers: beach: performance oriented vs perfection oriented
2018-06-04T14:05:17Z beach: Exactly.
2018-06-04T14:05:28Z makomo: for example, in C++ it's usually implemented as an object which acquires a resource in its ctor, and releases the resource in its dtor
2018-06-04T14:05:55Z hajovonta: i see
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2018-06-04T14:05:56Z makomo: which means that, once the scope is left, the resource is released automatically
2018-06-04T14:06:06Z makomo: which then handles exceptiones "for free"
2018-06-04T14:06:17Z makomo: if an exception happens, the compiler makes sure that the dtor is called
2018-06-04T14:06:31Z beach: makomo: And if you want to send your object to some other module that might keep it, then you have to copy it, right?
2018-06-04T14:06:35Z makomo: an example of a resource might be a mutex (locking/unlocking)
2018-06-04T14:06:41Z schweers: beach: so you’re saying that people cannot bear the thought that they wasted their life performing RAII over and over again, simply because C++ has neither macros, nor unwind-protect.  Sad state of affairs.  Do you have a good antidote?
2018-06-04T14:06:58Z shrdlu68: Cognitive dissonance, he says.
2018-06-04T14:07:03Z makomo: beach: either that, or you could have just constructed it on the heap in the first place
2018-06-04T14:07:27Z beach: schweers: Carol Dweck has written a lot about it and she claims that it can be fixed, but the person must have the desire to do it, and that is already not so obvious.
2018-06-04T14:07:36Z makomo: or actually no, that's not strictly necessary
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2018-06-04T14:07:46Z makomo: yes, you could either copy it (if the semantics of the resource allow that)
2018-06-04T14:07:50Z makomo: or you could "move" it
2018-06-04T14:07:57Z makomo: i.e. rvalue references, std::move, etc.
2018-06-04T14:07:57Z schweers: If the person in question wants to fix it I don’t think there is a problem anymore
2018-06-04T14:08:01Z beach: makomo: But if you allocate it on the heap and then destroy it automatically, you are in trouble.
2018-06-04T14:08:21Z makomo: beach: of course. you would allocate it on the heap and preferrably use something like std::unique_ptr
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2018-06-04T14:08:35Z beach: makomo: Yes, and thereby introducing a few orders of magnitude slowdown compared to a language with uniform reference semantics.
2018-06-04T14:08:54Z hajovonta: i don't know enough c++, so I won't use that as a reference point :)
2018-06-04T14:09:01Z makomo: beach: hm i guess so. then std::move would perhaps be the best option
2018-06-04T14:09:05Z beach: makomo: I am always surprised by what C++ programmers are willing to accept, and they accept it thinking that it will speed things up.
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2018-06-04T14:09:10Z beach: I feel so sorry for them.
2018-06-04T14:09:11Z schweers: does anyone else find the direction that C++ has taken over the last few years quite undignifying?
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2018-06-04T14:09:38Z makomo: beach: accepting the dynamic allocation you mean?
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2018-06-04T14:09:48Z hajovonta: what I also noticed is that almost always the #1 design consideration is that the code must be fast.
2018-06-04T14:09:59Z schweers: hajovonta: almost?
2018-06-04T14:10:05Z beach: makomo: Accepting the need to copy objects or introduce smart pointers, thereby slowing things down.
2018-06-04T14:10:23Z hajovonta: when implementing some new feature, I hear it all along "aha, and this way it can be made faster"
2018-06-04T14:10:32Z makomo: beach: there is a third option however, move semantics
2018-06-04T14:10:44Z beach: makomo: How does it work?
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2018-06-04T14:11:05Z hajovonta: when in fact the newly implemented code will take up only 0.1% of the total running time
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2018-06-04T14:11:50Z makomo: beach: it's a language feature that came with C++11. basically it introduces rvalue references (along with the good old lvalue references) into the language, that allows one to overload functions depending on whether an object is a "temporary or not"
2018-06-04T14:11:56Z hajovonta: I cited the saying "Premature optimization is the root of all evil." and wrote it on the whiteboard
2018-06-04T14:12:00Z makomo: beach: that's a simplified explanation, the details are gory of course
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2018-06-04T14:12:42Z hajovonta: not everybody understood
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2018-06-04T14:12:48Z beach: makomo: I bet.  And of course, knowing whether an object is temporary or not is not something that the programmer should be concerned about.  Or even could be, in the general case.
2018-06-04T14:12:48Z makomo: beach: so in short, you can for example, "move" a std::vector, without copying any memory. the move constructor just "steals" the memory of the original vector
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2018-06-04T14:13:20Z beach: makomo: Thanks.
2018-06-04T14:13:23Z makomo: then of course you're left with "an object in an undefined but valid state" in the caller
2018-06-04T14:13:24Z hajovonta: I personally don't like to optimize the code :) I view it as a necessary bad thing
2018-06-04T14:13:37Z schweers: makomo: did you also get the impression that the explanations of what move semantics are, are exceptionally bad?
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2018-06-04T14:14:35Z makomo: schweers: hm, i guess so. i spent a lot of time thinking/reading about it, "pieceing" together various bits of information
2018-06-04T14:14:43Z hajovonta: Let over Lambda has a few good pointers on how to speed up CL code
2018-06-04T14:14:45Z beach: I keep being surprised about the huge amount of trouble people are willing to go to in order to avoid Common Lisp.
2018-06-04T14:14:45Z makomo: because it's advertised as magic most of the time
2018-06-04T14:15:14Z schweers: magic may really be the right term.  It is claimed to be awesome, but not explained
2018-06-04T14:15:18Z schweers: beach: me too
2018-06-04T14:15:19Z makomo: in reality, it's just another type within the language, and the ability to overload your functions based on it
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2018-06-04T14:15:26Z beach: I think that observation shows how strong the psychological forces of the "performance oriented" people are.
2018-06-04T14:15:27Z makomo: i.e. the "rvalue reference to T" type
2018-06-04T14:15:34Z hajovonta: my colleague with lesser experience (few months) said "Lisp is the evil itself"
2018-06-04T14:15:37Z makomo: beach: haha :-)
2018-06-04T14:15:53Z shrdlu68: beach: I see "new" languages frequently on HN, claiming to solve old problems in some new way.
2018-06-04T14:16:28Z beach: shrdlu68: Let me guess.  Common Lisp has already solved most of them.
2018-06-04T14:16:33Z beach: ... decades ago.
2018-06-04T14:16:44Z shrdlu68: There is a special class of these "new" languages that seek to be "a better C".
2018-06-04T14:16:49Z schweers: He who does not study Lisp is doomed to re-invent it badly.  He who does study it is doomed to watch other people re-invent it badly.
2018-06-04T14:17:20Z schweers: shrdlu68: which can probably be better described as: need only a very small runtime
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2018-06-04T14:17:30Z shrdlu68: For example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17184407
2018-06-04T14:18:09Z shrdlu68: In fact the very first comment has something like "...no runtime overhead...".
2018-06-04T14:18:10Z makomo: beach: i just had a thought today. do you think the average programmer today would be more skilled/"smarter" had lisp been taught in every university ever?
2018-06-04T14:18:34Z beach: shrdlu68: It makes me tired to even think about.  :(
2018-06-04T14:19:03Z makomo: or what if all of the resources and time that were spent on improving other languages were spent on improving lisp for example
2018-06-04T14:19:06Z makomo: i wonder where lisp would be today
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2018-06-04T14:19:24Z schweers: please stop, I’m close to crying
2018-06-04T14:19:30Z makomo: :^(
2018-06-04T14:20:00Z beach: makomo: Maybe.  It would have to be done right.  With the current way things are set up, it could very well backfire to teach Lisp.
2018-06-04T14:20:04Z shrdlu68: makomo: Nope. A lot of people do actually encounter Lisp in form of Scheme.
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2018-06-04T14:20:36Z makomo: shrdlu68: not everywhere though. but imagine if it was taught *everywhere*
2018-06-04T14:20:41Z schweers: This may be seen as heresy, but I have come to think that scheme somehow misses the point
2018-06-04T14:20:42Z makomo: i wonder if it would improve anything
2018-06-04T14:20:49Z makomo: sadly i can't really perform this experiment
2018-06-04T14:20:58Z beach: makomo: Universities these days think that their mission is to satisify the desires of industry.  The problem with that thinking is that they assume that industry knows what it needs.
2018-06-04T14:21:12Z makomo: beach: mhm :-(
2018-06-04T14:21:31Z schweers: when has industry ever known that?  not just our industry, any industry?
2018-06-04T14:21:35Z beach: makomo: So the students get the impression that what industry requests is the good stuff.  In such a setting, Lisp will not be accepted either way.
2018-06-04T14:21:42Z shrdlu68: makomo: It would probably only serve to fuel the many misconceptions about lisp. Have you noticed that almost everyone knows Lisp's reputation even before learning it?
2018-06-04T14:22:00Z beach: schweers: They haven't.  The new thing is that Universities now believe it, or at least act as if.
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2018-06-04T14:22:19Z shrdlu68: "weird syntax", "AI", "too much memory", "interpreted", etc.
2018-06-04T14:22:27Z makomo: shrdlu68: yeah, another assumption in my hypothetical experiment is "assuming nobody heard of lisp before"
2018-06-04T14:22:34Z makomo: or at least didn't have any prejudices regarding it :-D
2018-06-04T14:22:36Z beach: makomo: First, my colleagues need to understand that the knowledge of what industry needs should be acquired at the universities.
2018-06-04T14:22:59Z makomo: beach: i agree
2018-06-04T14:23:02Z hajovonta: shrdlu68: "functional"
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2018-06-04T14:23:13Z shrdlu68: Heh, yeah.
2018-06-04T14:23:15Z makomo: i told my friend today about lisp's object system
2018-06-04T14:23:17Z makomo: "lisp has objects?"
2018-06-04T14:23:25Z beach: makomo: Then, teaching would have to be conducted in that spirit.  Not "here is what you need to know in order to work in industry", but "here is what you need to know so that you can improve the situation where you will work".
2018-06-04T14:23:26Z jmercouris: shka: turned out to be some indentation package interferring
2018-06-04T14:23:27Z schweers: I remember that I was unhappy as a student about something or other (bad language, silly document format, something like that) on an assignment.  My professor told me that this is training for use in industry.  I remember thinking that it is the job of a university or college to teach students how things can be better instead of perpetuating the status quo
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2018-06-04T14:23:28Z makomo: i told him that CLOS is the greatest object system he's ever seen
2018-06-04T14:23:30Z schweers: but alas, no such luck
2018-06-04T14:23:52Z hajovonta: yes lisp has objects and the object system is implemented on top of the language without performance loss
2018-06-04T14:23:58Z beach: schweers: Right on.
2018-06-04T14:24:00Z hajovonta: by means of macros
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2018-06-04T14:24:41Z makomo: beach: yeah, it would have to be a complete change
2018-06-04T14:24:55Z makomo: then of course you tell him about MOP
2018-06-04T14:25:16Z makomo: i told him all of the hardcore stuff today, i don't even want to hold back
2018-06-04T14:25:24Z shrdlu68: If anything, this "preceding reputation" is probably the primary barrier to wide adoption, because people are otherwise surprisingly open to learning (about) "new" languages.
2018-06-04T14:25:25Z beach: Heh.
2018-06-04T14:26:01Z beach: shrdlu68: Hence "people are willing to go to a lot of trouble to avoid Common Lisp".
2018-06-04T14:26:15Z schweers: beach: or any lisp in general
2018-06-04T14:26:18Z shrdlu68: It's old and they've heard all about it.
2018-06-04T14:26:21Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-04T14:26:35Z makomo: oh, right, today i wrote another lab exercise in lisp for a graphics course
2018-06-04T14:26:44Z makomo: and the same assistant that was there the last time was here today
2018-06-04T14:26:48Z makomo: he was excited to see me :-)
2018-06-04T14:26:49Z hajovonta: :)
2018-06-04T14:26:52Z schweers: hell, even editing source code in non-sexp based language is hell
2018-06-04T14:26:56Z beach: makomo: Excellent!
2018-06-04T14:27:00Z makomo: "wow, this is the first time i saw someone write this in lisp, amazing"
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2018-06-04T14:27:31Z makomo: well, actually the second, since i wrote the last one in lisp too, but it's a saying :-)
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2018-06-04T14:28:25Z makomo: imo, we need good/"hardcore" examples of stuff written in lisp, not just toy examples that try to convince people why macros are good
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2018-06-04T14:28:43Z makomo: actually showing them a full example and that it's really possible is much better
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2018-06-04T14:29:30Z makomo: hajovonta: that's why i think demonstrating stuff like the sorting network macros and similar is the best
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2018-06-04T14:30:00Z makomo: stuff like with-gensym, once-only, etc. aren't as good because they're there as utilities
2018-06-04T14:30:06Z makomo: although once-only is awesome
2018-06-04T14:30:22Z hajovonta: yes, but i don't have infinite time for the demo, only 1 maybe 1.5 hours
2018-06-04T14:30:33Z makomo: 1-1.5 hours?! holy :-)
2018-06-04T14:30:39Z makomo: i thought it would be more like 15 minutes
2018-06-04T14:30:42Z makomo: that's great, throw it all in
2018-06-04T14:30:45Z makomo: all the macros
2018-06-04T14:30:45Z hajovonta: and I need to demonstrate a lot more else before talking about macros
2018-06-04T14:30:51Z makomo: ah :^(
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2018-06-04T14:31:14Z shrdlu68: hajovonta: Show off slime.
2018-06-04T14:31:20Z hajovonta: you see, generalized booleans, setf-able places, higher order functions, closures, lexical scopes, etc
2018-06-04T14:31:34Z makomo: hajovonta: setf is a great example indeed
2018-06-04T14:31:35Z hajovonta: yep, along with SLIME stuff
2018-06-04T14:31:41Z schweers: oh. right.  setf.  how do people live without?
2018-06-04T14:31:41Z makomo: hajovonta: don't forget rotatef!
2018-06-04T14:32:10Z hajovonta: and then conditions+restarts, debugging running code
2018-06-04T14:32:22Z makomo: ah, you're going to show them conditions
2018-06-04T14:32:32Z hajovonta: yes, a little bit
2018-06-04T14:33:01Z Fade: thodg: I'm looking at the asd file for thot, and it depends on "bordeaux-queue", but that system is not illuminated by google, and it is not in quicklisp.
2018-06-04T14:33:01Z hajovonta: I plan to write some boring code which requires boilerplate, then show how to simplify it with macros
2018-06-04T14:33:11Z schweers: hajovonta: you’re showing this to collegues, right?  do you use lisp at work?
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2018-06-04T14:33:42Z hajovonta: and then at the end, I will show them the advanced examples we've been talking about: cl-ppcre, sorting networks, maybe advanced concepts
2018-06-04T14:33:46Z shrdlu68: hajovonta: Do it in such a way that they won't say "But I can do that with the preprocessor."
2018-06-04T14:34:02Z makomo: hajovonta: anaphoric macros also maybe? i'm not sure
2018-06-04T14:34:36Z makomo: maybe those are pushing it, idk. instead of aif you could showcase alexandria's when-let though
2018-06-04T14:34:37Z hajovonta: schweers: I used it for two years for automating manual system engineering work. Now I work with python, which is much less fun.
2018-06-04T14:34:44Z makomo: which isn't anaphoric, but does the same thing as aif
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2018-06-04T14:34:58Z shrdlu68: Also, a great "standard library" that c++ is trying to catch up with.
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2018-06-04T14:35:23Z schweers: eww, why python?  I guess you didn’t have much say in the matter?
2018-06-04T14:35:55Z hajovonta: schweers: we have an existing framework written in python, so that is a given
2018-06-04T14:36:18Z hajovonta: but it would be hard to find programmers who are capable of working with CL (or willing)
2018-06-04T14:36:32Z hajovonta: python or C programmers are also hard to find nowadays
2018-06-04T14:36:44Z hajovonta: but I guess this depends on how much you want to pay
2018-06-04T14:37:22Z warweasle: hajovonta: Really?
2018-06-04T14:37:39Z warweasle needs a raise.
2018-06-04T14:37:43Z schweers: wait, what?
2018-06-04T14:37:58Z schweers: how hard can it be to find programmers capable of working with python or C?
2018-06-04T14:38:00Z makomo: i thought about how nice it would be if he had something like make, but written in cl (and using cl for its makefiles, of course)
2018-06-04T14:38:06Z makomo: i'm not sure if asdf is as general as make?
2018-06-04T14:38:09Z schweers: people can learn how to program python in a day or two
2018-06-04T14:38:28Z hajovonta: schweers: first I have to familiarize myself with the problem domain, and because it's a big software that we provide a testing framework for, it can take up to 1.5-2 years.
2018-06-04T14:38:51Z hajovonta: schweers: we have a colleague who came from a bootcamp
2018-06-04T14:38:57Z schweers: agreed, but that is a different story than not being able to program in python.
2018-06-04T14:39:01Z makomo: beach: you talk about writing a paper on bootstrapping in your LOOP talk. has that been done? :-)
2018-06-04T14:39:01Z schweers: bootcamp?
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2018-06-04T14:39:36Z makomo: also, the videos from els 2018 aren't up yet :^(
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2018-06-04T14:39:53Z makomo: i hope they didn't forget about them
2018-06-04T14:40:18Z beach: makomo: No, I am still working on the bootstrapping paper.
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2018-06-04T14:41:30Z hajovonta: schweers: yes some few months and you are a software developer
2018-06-04T14:41:36Z thodg: Fade: I'm using repo https://cliki.net/repo
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2018-06-04T14:42:01Z hajovonta: schweers: companies start hiring these people now because there is a shortage on developers
2018-06-04T14:42:02Z schweers: hajovonta: how is that supposed to work?
2018-06-04T14:42:10Z thodg: Fade: https://github.com/RailsOnLisp/bordeaux-queue
2018-06-04T14:42:20Z schweers: wow
2018-06-04T14:42:33Z hajovonta: schweers:  hardly :)
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2018-06-04T14:42:38Z shrdlu68: Nothing wrong with that, everyone starts somewhere and we can't all start at the same place. As long as he keeps learning and improving.
2018-06-04T14:42:55Z schweers: thats what we have colleges and universities for
2018-06-04T14:43:00Z Fade: thodg: thanks. I did google first!
2018-06-04T14:43:04Z schweers: and /hen/ you keep learning
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2018-06-04T14:43:14Z hajovonta: schweers: some fundamental things are missing, like knowledge of networks, databases, etc. but otherwise we are lucky because the guy is good
2018-06-04T14:43:46Z schweers: I didn’t say he isn’t, but imagine what kind of work he could do if he were not denied a proper education?
2018-06-04T14:44:28Z makomo: beach: aha. could you let me know when you release it, if you can/remember (whether it's a draft or the full thing)? :-) i find the subject of bootstrapping very interesting (both from bootstrapping compilers to bootstrapping stuff like CLOS/MOP)
2018-06-04T14:44:39Z hajovonta: schweers: he was not denied but studied something else (psychology) and then realized that developing software is his dream.
2018-06-04T14:44:55Z schweers: okay, then it might just as well work
2018-06-04T14:45:06Z schweers: then I might want to retract my remarks
2018-06-04T14:45:08Z shrdlu68: schweers: Haha, you think universities are any better?
2018-06-04T14:45:29Z schweers: shrdlu68: they can be, but are not always so (I was not so lucky)
2018-06-04T14:45:51Z shrdlu68: I made a fizzbuzz challenge for interns and, of the two that tried my challenge, both had  bugs in their code. University-educated.
2018-06-04T14:46:03Z schweers: so?
2018-06-04T14:46:05Z beach: makomo: I would like to make more progress on the SICL bootstrapping procedure first.
2018-06-04T14:46:18Z makomo: beach: of course, take your time. it'll be done when it's done :-)
2018-06-04T14:46:25Z beach: Exactly! :)
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2018-06-04T15:00:22Z TMA: shrdlu68: i have given fizzbuzz as a question for hiring test. university graduates (masters degree in CS) most have had errors. it was the first time i have seen float based loop from one to 100
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2018-06-04T15:04:49Z edgar-rft has a masters degree in Couch Surfing
2018-06-04T15:05:50Z shka: TMA: interesting
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2018-06-04T15:08:33Z shka: TMA: what kind of error can be made in fizzbuzz?
2018-06-04T15:09:15Z jmercouris: TMA: which lang?
2018-06-04T15:09:30Z schweers: in an interview all sorts of errors can be made.  not everyone interviews well
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2018-06-04T15:11:06Z schweers: Am I overlooking something or does the hyperspec not state what the default test function for MEMBER is?
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2018-06-04T15:11:39Z Bike: it's eql
2018-06-04T15:11:41Z Bike: one moment
2018-06-04T15:12:21Z Bike: clhs 17.2.1
2018-06-04T15:12:21Z specbot: Satisfying a Two-Argument Test: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/17_ba.htm
2018-06-04T15:12:29Z Bike: this should be linked from more clhs pages, but it is not
2018-06-04T15:12:54Z karlosz: beach: the block bar block foo ex scymtym gave also returns 1 in clisp
2018-06-04T15:13:05Z karlosz: and i followed suite by making it return 1 in cleavir+clisp
2018-06-04T15:13:14Z karlosz: by inserting the lexical exits where they naturally belong
2018-06-04T15:13:25Z karlosz: for more data about what implementations do
2018-06-04T15:13:35Z karlosz: *lexical invalidations
2018-06-04T15:14:25Z beach: karlosz: OK, thanks for the info.
2018-06-04T15:14:26Z schweers: thanks Bike!
2018-06-04T15:15:02Z TMA: jmercouris: this was (at least nominally c or c++); I left the language choice to the candidates
2018-06-04T15:18:41Z TMA: shka: off by one (printing 0 to 99 instead of 1 to 100), omitting elses so that both the word and number gets printed, not testing for divisibility by 15 before checking for 3 and 5 while not omitting elses (so that Fizz is printed instead of FizzBuzz), I think there was a puts for printing numbers
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2018-06-04T15:19:21Z schweers: beach: regarding performance vs perfection oriented people: do you too get the impression that our field has this problem more than other fields do?
2018-06-04T15:20:07Z beach: schweers: I do have that impression, but I think it is wrong.  Probably only based on the fact that I am not so knowledgeable in other fields.
2018-06-04T15:20:58Z schweers: maybe I should consult with my friend, who is a physicist.
2018-06-04T15:21:25Z beach: That's a good idea.
2018-06-04T15:21:35Z beach: You can also check with drmeister who is a chemist.
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2018-06-04T15:23:16Z TMA: schweers: the hospital management requires measuring average time per "procedure" performed (where procedure is for example "chirurgically remove X") ... maybe there is performance pressure too
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2018-06-04T15:24:02Z schweers: TMA: not what I meant, but yes, it is a problem.  Then again, this is not the way things should be.
2018-06-04T15:24:09Z beach: TMA: Actually, it is unrelated.  "performance oriented" is what I call what Carol Dweck calles "fixed mindset".
2018-06-04T15:24:51Z beach: TMA: ... and "perfection oriented" corresponds to a "growth mindset".
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2018-06-04T15:26:25Z shka: beach: i read that essay
2018-06-04T15:26:38Z shka: i like your writings
2018-06-04T15:26:53Z beach: shka: Thanks.  That one was quite a hit, it turns out.
2018-06-04T15:27:15Z shka: i guess
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2018-06-04T15:27:33Z shka: others are also worth reading
2018-06-04T15:27:44Z shka: even the one about school uniforms :P
2018-06-04T15:28:08Z schweers: beach: you are in favor of school uniforms, right?
2018-06-04T15:28:18Z beach: shka: Glad you like the essays.
2018-06-04T15:28:30Z beach: schweers: I am, yes.  Very much so.
2018-06-04T15:28:47Z schweers: did you wear one as a child?
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2018-06-04T15:29:20Z beach: I did not, no.  I didn't "discover" them until I spent a year in New Zealand much much later.
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2018-06-04T15:31:22Z schweers: I understand where you’re going with this essay, but I don’t think it solves the problem you are describing.  Take a look at britain to see why.
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2018-06-04T15:31:40Z beach: You may be right.
2018-06-04T15:31:48Z schweers: disclaimer: I am biased against school uniforms on the basis that I didn’t like them as a child.
2018-06-04T15:31:57Z beach: I see.
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2018-06-04T15:32:13Z schweers: but anyway, I think this is off-topic territory
2018-06-04T15:32:21Z beach: Definitely.
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2018-06-04T16:53:43Z akkad: is there a more common solution to serializing say a hash object to a string, without resorting to so say json?
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2018-06-04T16:54:27Z akkad: e.g. leveldb requries strings for the value store. and was looking for a non-json approach
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2018-06-04T16:55:54Z Xach: akkad: I don't know of a common solution, but there are many possible ad hoc solutions that spring to mind.
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2018-06-04T16:58:27Z pjb: akkad: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:print-hashtable ht)
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2018-06-04T17:04:33Z akkad: pjb is that reversable? (hashp? (printed-version->hash ht))
2018-06-04T17:05:06Z pjb: yes try it
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2018-06-04T17:06:10Z akkad: ty
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2018-06-04T17:19:00Z jmercouris: anyone have a guide for serving caveman2 via apache?
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2018-06-04T17:19:35Z jmercouris: the readme makes it seem ultra trivial: https://github.com/fukamachi/caveman#start-a-server
2018-06-04T17:19:43Z jmercouris: but provides no instruction on configuration...
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2018-06-04T17:21:57Z akkad: when running images remotely for any length of time, how do you do job control sort of stuff? e.g. redefine a function, and restart a thread running in the background?
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2018-06-04T17:28:10Z jmercouris: akkad: could use screen, or slime to hook into it
2018-06-04T17:28:36Z akkad: yeah, over slime/swank, in the repl proper, how do you do job control for threads.
2018-06-04T17:29:03Z akkad: the bt functions all seemed sort of cumbersome, and figured there must be a more job control like interface, that folks used for long running images
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2018-06-04T17:29:19Z jmercouris: well, how would you control threads in lisp to begin with? https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/process.html
2018-06-04T17:29:26Z jmercouris: Oh I see
2018-06-04T17:29:34Z jmercouris: I guess you could make your ownn such interface
2018-06-04T17:29:38Z jmercouris: s/ownn/own
2018-06-04T17:29:46Z akkad: kill thread, restart thread running some function, redefine function, restart, etc
2018-06-04T17:30:01Z jmercouris: maybe you could even make a package, put it on quicklisp
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2018-06-04T17:33:07Z innovati: I'm not an emacs user, but I have heard emacs has lisp extensions and I'm _really_ curious about a scriptable editor…are there any good resources for getting started with emacs and elisp for people who are new to emacs?
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2018-06-04T17:34:44Z akkad: jmercouris: sure, but not just because nih kicked in :P
2018-06-04T17:35:24Z pjb: innovati: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/eintr.html
2018-06-04T17:35:34Z pjb: innovati: ask in #emacs
2018-06-04T17:35:35Z rpg: innovati: Probably best to ask in #emacs - - you might specify that you are familiar with other lisps.
2018-06-04T17:36:25Z innovati: thanks <3
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2018-06-04T17:39:34Z akkad: specifically if it's palatal, dental or frontal
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2018-06-04T17:55:01Z clintm: Is there a way to get a list of the possible conditions that might be raised from a given function in slime?  I'm confident there is not but I still find nuggets of hitherto unknown to me nuggets of utility, so I thought I'd ask.
2018-06-04T17:55:18Z clintm: oops... bad edit.  oh well.
2018-06-04T17:55:31Z Bike: that's not statically determinable
2018-06-04T17:55:57Z Bike: and would be difficult to even get an approximation for
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2018-06-04T17:58:45Z clintm: That'll teach me to not think deeper about my questions.  Of course you're right.
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2018-06-04T18:11:40Z pierpal: where is the "school uniform essay"?
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2018-06-04T18:51:56Z ealfonso: I have a long-running service that continually adds elements to an array until it eventually runs out of memory and crashes. Is there a library that provides an abstraction to a data structure with a maximum in-memory capacity and the rest backed by disk?
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2018-06-04T19:00:11Z dlowe: There could be with your help :)
2018-06-04T19:00:40Z rpg: clintm Bike: I think even if we had some structure like Java, we couldn't do much, because the set of standard conditions in the spec is minimal and weak.
2018-06-04T19:01:08Z Bike: it is pretty underwhelming
2018-06-04T19:01:39Z rpg: Even if you knew what set of conditions might be raised by a set of mathematical operations in SBCL, I doubt that would be at all predictive about what CCL or Allegro would do, for example.
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2018-06-04T19:02:58Z rpg: I could imagine that given a small piece of code, and access to the SBCL source code, a sufficiently clever theorem-prover could compute a conservative over-approximation of the set of conditions that could be raised.
2018-06-04T19:03:27Z rpg: But anything very exact would be uncomputable (halting problem).
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2018-06-04T19:05:38Z ealfonso: dlowe I guess this seems something similar to memory paging or caching, so I wasn't sure if there was something already available
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2018-06-04T19:09:43Z aeth: ealfonso: There are ways to serialize to disk, so it shouldn't be too hard to choose one of them.
2018-06-04T19:10:52Z aeth: I'm not aware of something that does the missing step and automatically does this.
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2018-06-04T19:11:22Z aeth: Saving arbitrary objects to disk seems like the hard part, though.
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2018-06-04T19:12:47Z ealfonso: I was thinking of implementing this using a virtual array displaced to a real array of fixed capacity, with the real array periodically flushing to disk, and adding a custom handler for negative indices into the real array. I wonder if it's possible and efficient to handle a condition like this in a custom way : (aref (make-array 5) -1) => #<SB-INT:INVALID-ARRAY-INDEX-ERROR expected-type: "(INTEGER 0 (5))"datum: -1>.
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2018-06-04T19:18:31Z rpg: ealfonso: You can make your own condition, which is something like "item paged out of memory," and write a continue handler that would page it back in.
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2018-06-04T19:19:13Z rpg: But it sounds like you need a notion of page or something, which sort of smells like you are reinventing virtual memory. Why doesn't OS VM solve this problem for you?
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2018-06-04T19:27:27Z ealfonso: rpg well, in my case the amount of memory grows continuously, and eventually the process always runs out of memory  (including any additional swap space). but you're right that I could increase the amount of swap space without having to change anything else.
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2018-06-04T19:30:06Z rpg: ealfonso: Before trying this new data structure, unless you need it to be portable, I'd check with your lisp implementation to see if there's a way to make it smart about paging a data structure like this.  Maybe there's some way to allocate it so that the implementation will handle it well.  Or I wonder if you could just make a big array that's mapped on to some block-size of individual arrays, hoping that parts of the array that aren't being used will get paged out
2018-06-04T19:30:06Z rpg:  to swap.
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2018-06-04T19:34:45Z ealfonso: in my particular case, I only care about the latest 'page' being in memory since it accounts for 99% of accesses, so for my use case I don't need to worry about paging, only about not crashing due to running out of memory by periodically flushing to disk or increasing virtual memory.
2018-06-04T19:35:59Z rpg: ealfonso: Right, but we need to make sure that the lisp implementation correctly discovers this pattern of memory access.  So it would help to know if the implementation will, for example, page out parts of large in-memory data structures.  If it *won't*, then it might help to do the trick I mentioned above.
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2018-06-04T19:38:45Z ealfonso: rpg that's right. unless I implement it manually and manually flush to disk and only keep one page in memory (which would mean all other accesses outside of latest page would be a miss, which I think is OK in my case)
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2018-06-04T20:45:51Z aeth: Apple deprecated OpenGL. https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8okg5y/apple_deprecating_opengl_and_opencl_in_macos/
2018-06-04T20:46:20Z aeth: Direct link but without the emphasis on the big (to us) announcement. https://developer.apple.com/macos/whats-new/
2018-06-04T20:47:33Z Bike: cripes
2018-06-04T20:47:36Z aeth: This is huge. Nearly everything uses cl-opengl and cl-vulkan, the only alternative, is incomplete. Applications that wish to continue supporting 3D on macOS would need to port to Vulkan, cl-vulkan (or some other bindings), and use the MoltenVK library.
2018-06-04T20:48:40Z aeth: And this would have to be done before macOS 10.15 afaik
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2018-06-04T21:12:06Z comborico1611_: aeth: Thanks for important news.
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2018-06-04T21:14:50Z aeth: A slight clarification: I'm not actually sure if deprecation means removal in macOS 10.15. It just means that it *could be* removed in macOS 10.15.
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2018-06-04T21:16:01Z Bike: that's not actually slight
2018-06-04T21:16:16Z rpg: aeth: Aren't people saying that OpenGL *already* sucks on the Mac?
2018-06-04T21:16:44Z aeth: Bike: Well, you'd have to approach it the same way if you want to ensure continued macOS support.
2018-06-04T21:17:09Z aeth: That is, roughly a year to port to cl-vulkan and get MoltenVK working with CL.
2018-06-04T21:17:30Z aeth: rpg: The only thing worse than bad, 8-year-outdated support is nonexistent support
2018-06-04T21:18:10Z rpg remembers "The only thing worse than being talked about is *not* being talked about..."
2018-06-04T21:19:12Z aeth: rpg: I guess on the plus side, people will finally start abandoning OpenGL 3.3 or OpenGL 4.1 in favor of either Vulkan or newer versions of OpenGL. The macOS excuse will no longer exist and the older drivers/hardware for the other OSes are fading.
2018-06-04T21:20:01Z rpg: aeth: Seems weird, but I'm kind of a 2D guy, anyway! ;-) Have you checked in with #lispgames?
2018-06-04T21:20:08Z aeth: 4.2 or 4.3 should be a fair assumption. 4.5 would support most.
2018-06-04T21:23:13Z dxtr: Is it possible to "append" (or would "merge" be the right word?) two hash tables?
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2018-06-04T21:25:03Z Bike: sure, but it's not built in or anything.
2018-06-04T21:25:14Z dxtr: hehe, alright
2018-06-04T21:25:26Z Bike: you can iterate over hash tables with a variety of mechanisms, such as maphash; the rest shouldn't be too hard depending on your desired semantics
2018-06-04T21:26:01Z aeth: The only real issue would be what to do when two things share the same key.
2018-06-04T21:26:29Z dxtr: Question #2: Are hash tables passed as copies? What I'm basically wondering is that if I modify a hash table within a function will that affect the caller too?
2018-06-04T21:26:42Z Bike: no, they are not copied.
2018-06-04T21:26:51Z dxtr: Alright
2018-06-04T21:26:58Z Bike: lisp does not do implicit copying except of a few objects that are immutable anyway.
2018-06-04T21:27:04Z dxtr: That's what I figured - just wanted to confirm :)
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2018-06-04T21:27:37Z dxtr: Oh, so if I modify *anything* within a function that affects the caller too? This is an area I haven't really thought about
2018-06-04T21:28:03Z dxtr: I always try to make everything immutable but this time I'm considering if non-mutability is simply easier
2018-06-04T21:28:16Z dxtr: err
2018-06-04T21:28:20Z dxtr: s/non-//
2018-06-04T21:28:41Z rpg: dxtr: most things *are* immutable, but there are things like list structures (if you use nconc or the like), arrays (if you modify their contents), etc.
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2018-06-04T21:29:09Z dxtr: Alright
2018-06-04T21:29:37Z rpg: e.g. if you change a variable from one string to another, it doesn't harm the original string. It's only if you modify the string's contents.
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2018-06-04T21:29:59Z aeth: There is an alexandria:copy-hash-table if you want to copy one
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2018-06-04T21:32:01Z dxtr: neat
2018-06-04T21:32:42Z aeth: What's the best way to ensure sb-ext:*derive-function-types* when building an executable with SBCL but not during development?
2018-06-04T21:33:15Z Bike: ensure ... is bound when?
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2018-06-04T21:36:18Z aeth: sb-ext:*derive-function-types* is normally NIL, and should normally be NIL, but when compiling an executable for SBCL for applications using my framework, it should be T. It makes SBCL assume that functions won't be redefined to change the function types, which gives more power to the compiler. i.e. Optimizations, compile-time warnings/errors, etc.
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2018-06-04T21:36:50Z aeth: This is desirable for a standalone executable.
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2018-06-04T21:37:24Z rpg: aeth: One way to do it would be to bind that variable around the build process for the executable. You could do that relatively easily, I think, if you were using Fare's ASDF "bundle" stuff.
2018-06-04T21:37:55Z rpg: That said, I've never used that stuff myself, except to run tests, so I'm not at all familiar with its ins and outs.
2018-06-04T21:39:16Z aeth: Oh, there is a slight complication in that what I'm doing is an engine/framework thing, so the ultimate executable will be for a system other than the systems that I am writing.
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2018-06-04T23:54:39Z Xach: the quicklisp build server has a failed hard drive. i'll get a new one in the next few days and hope to be back annoying people with build failures by the weekend.
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2018-06-05T00:21:16Z akkad: (map nil #'(lambda (p) (ql:quickload p)) (ql:system-list)); done :P
2018-06-05T00:21:55Z akkad hunts fruitlessly for the slime var to limit output in the repl from crippling emacs
2018-06-05T00:23:03Z akkad: oops (ql:quickload (ql-dist:name p)) even
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2018-06-05T00:46:25Z edgar-rft: akkad: Common Lisp has *print-level* and *print-length* if that helps
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2018-06-05T01:11:42Z DataLinkDroid: The Ada Number Words library has been moved to Bitbucket: https://bitbucket.org/EclecticSoftwareEngineer/ada-number-words.git
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2018-06-05T01:11:55Z DataLinkDroid: It will soon be removed from GitHub.
2018-06-05T01:13:05Z DataLinkDroid: Wrong channel. Sorry. :-/
2018-06-05T01:14:59Z akkad: edgar-rft: thanks
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2018-06-05T02:54:43Z mfiano: If I make a custom "continue" restart, is there a way to register that with SLIME as the default for when 'c' is pressed?
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2018-06-05T03:03:26Z Bike: i figured sldb bound c to just (invoke-restart 'continue)
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2018-06-05T03:05:44Z loke: Bike: It should. since there is even a function called CL:CONTINUE
2018-06-05T03:05:50Z loke: (which does that)
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2018-06-05T03:20:22Z mfiano: I'm not sure. I have a few restarts labeled CONTINUE with different reports
2018-06-05T03:20:34Z mfiano: 'c' invokes the one that I want to switch away from
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2018-06-05T04:43:22Z asarch: I do: (defclass point () (....)) and then (defgeneric draw (point) ...) and later (defmethod draw ((point p1)) (...)) but I get "There is no class named COMMON-LISP-USER::P1".
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2018-06-05T04:44:15Z asarch: https://pastebin.com/cZH9vWRJ
2018-06-05T04:44:20Z asarch: What's wrong? :-(
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2018-06-05T04:45:06Z asarch: As far I understand, defgeneric functions are like "templates" which I can "define" with defmethod
2018-06-05T04:45:27Z asarch: (From this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html)
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2018-06-05T04:46:07Z asarch: In the example: (defmethod draw ((shape circle)) ...) what is "circle"?
2018-06-05T04:46:25Z asarch: Another different class from shape?
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2018-06-05T04:50:02Z jackdaniel: asarch: first comes the name, then the specialization
2018-06-05T04:50:09Z jackdaniel: so (defmethod draw ((p1 point)) …)
2018-06-05T04:50:21Z jackdaniel: your class has a name "point"
2018-06-05T04:50:54Z jackdaniel: usually error messages are quite informative, in this case it told you, that there is no class "p1" – skimming where did you put this symbol would indicate the problem
2018-06-05T04:51:15Z asarch takes notes...
2018-06-05T04:51:56Z asarch: How would you do (from C++): class point {int x, y, z; ... }; class rect {point p1, p2; ...}; (the "point p1, p2;" part)?
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2018-06-05T04:54:20Z jackdaniel: I would write function for that and use it
2018-06-05T04:55:11Z asarch: So you can't actually have slots that are instantiation of other classes?
2018-06-05T04:55:17Z asarch: ...per se?
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2018-06-05T04:55:26Z jackdaniel: I think I don't understand your question
2018-06-05T04:55:39Z jackdaniel: I thought you were talking about batch initialization
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2018-06-05T04:56:03Z jackdaniel: if you talk about having class instances as members of another class, you have it without any declarations
2018-06-05T04:56:08Z jackdaniel: CL works on references, remember?
2018-06-05T04:56:22Z jackdaniel: you may add :type initarg to slot definition, but there is no guarantee it will be enforced
2018-06-05T04:56:22Z asarch: ...
2018-06-05T04:56:25Z asarch: ?
2018-06-05T04:56:45Z jackdaniel: CCL enforces it, SBCL does it only for relatively high safety levels
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2018-06-05T04:56:56Z jackdaniel: minion: please tell asarch about pcl
2018-06-05T04:56:56Z minion: asarch: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-06-05T04:57:08Z loke: jackdaniel: SBCL enforces it on the default safety level, which is good enough, no?
2018-06-05T04:57:13Z asarch: I have that book
2018-06-05T04:57:48Z jackdaniel: loke: it certainly did not on 1.4.1 version, because I needed defclass* for that (to increase the safety level locally)
2018-06-05T04:57:55Z jackdaniel: I don't know what about newer versions
2018-06-05T04:58:43Z jackdaniel: asarch: slot (like variable names) doesn't have a type, it just stores a reference to the variable (which is typed)
2018-06-05T04:59:00Z loke: jackdaniel: You're right, this has changed
2018-06-05T04:59:05Z loke: it used to do this a few years back
2018-06-05T04:59:30Z jackdaniel: so (defclass rect () ((p1 :initform (make-point 0 0)) (p2 :initform (make-point 1 1)))) is a class having by default two points
2018-06-05T04:59:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-05T04:59:51Z loke: asarch: As for your question, you'd create a rect class like so: (defclass rect () ((p1 ...) (p2 ...))
2018-06-05T04:59:55Z jackdaniel: but you can do (setf (slot-value rect 'p1) 'boom) and you won't have a point in one of the slots
2018-06-05T05:00:31Z jackdaniel leaves asarch in more konwledgeble hands, needs to take a shower (just finished morning excercie)
2018-06-05T05:00:41Z asarch takes notes...
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2018-06-05T05:06:25Z loke: asarch: You should learn about :INITARG as well
2018-06-05T05:06:39Z loke: i mean :INITFORM
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2018-06-05T05:07:05Z loke: (defclass rect () ((p1 :initform (make-instance 'point)) (p2 :initform (make-instance 'point))))
2018-06-05T05:07:36Z loke: then you can add :READER arguments to each point, meaning that you can expose the reader function, but no accessor/writer.
2018-06-05T05:13:02Z asarch: If you can supply the reader and the accessor, what is the point of the defmethod functions?
2018-06-05T05:13:49Z loke: asarch: readers and accessors are just a quick way to generate the appropriate methods/gneric functions for you
2018-06-05T05:14:04Z loke: thus, the following are equivalent:
2018-06-05T05:14:23Z loke: (defclass foo () ((x :reader foo/x)))
2018-06-05T05:14:24Z loke: and:
2018-06-05T05:15:00Z loke: (defclass foo () ((x))) (defgeneric foo/x (obj)) (defmethod foo/x ((obj foo)) (slot-value obj 'x))
2018-06-05T05:15:34Z loke: It's just a convenience thing
2018-06-05T05:15:47Z loke: The :ACCESSOR version also creates the (SETF FOO/X) function for you
2018-06-05T05:15:51Z asarch: Wow! I didn't know you can actually use defgeneric/defmethod inside defclass
2018-06-05T05:16:05Z loke: asarch: I wasn't, it's outside
2018-06-05T05:16:13Z loke: count the parens :-)
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2018-06-05T05:18:23Z asarch: D'oh! You're right! :-P
2018-06-05T05:19:43Z asarch: If I have ":accessor get_x", how could I access to it from: (defparameter *p1* (make-instance 'point :x 1 :y 2 :z 3))?
2018-06-05T05:20:12Z asarch: With (slot-value *p1* 'get_x)?
2018-06-05T05:20:44Z loke: asarch: I would strongly discourage you from using userscore in symbol names.
2018-06-05T05:20:49Z loke: They look very out-of-place in Lisp code.
2018-06-05T05:21:13Z asarch: Sorry, sorry. My fault
2018-06-05T05:21:15Z loke: asarch: the accessors are generic functions:
2018-06-05T05:21:27Z loke: (defclass foo () ((x :accessor foo/x)))
2018-06-05T05:22:19Z loke: (let ((a (make-instance 'foo))) #|set the value|# (setf (foo/x a) 'new-value) #|print the value|# (print (foo/x a)))
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2018-06-05T05:24:02Z asarch: Bingo!
2018-06-05T05:24:06Z asarch: Thank you!
2018-06-05T05:24:11Z asarch: Thank you very much!
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2018-06-05T05:27:31Z asarch: This girl was my inspiration to learn Lisp. Now she is sick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS1DbvHHVH0
2018-06-05T05:27:34Z asarch: :-(
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2018-06-05T05:28:37Z loke: asarch: She's my countryman, and I've followed her videos on and off.
2018-06-05T05:28:44Z loke: I didn't kjnow she was a developer though.
2018-06-05T05:29:08Z White_Flame: did she do any lisp stuff?
2018-06-05T05:29:19Z asarch: As far I know, she is not
2018-06-05T05:30:14Z asarch: She only assembles pieces of mechanics stuffs
2018-06-05T05:30:32Z asarch: Without any AI at all
2018-06-05T05:30:46Z White_Flame: yeah, i've seen a lot of her videos
2018-06-05T05:31:20Z asarch: They are fun
2018-06-05T05:31:28Z asarch: Specially those with blades :-P
2018-06-05T05:31:58Z loke: I think the fact that they're all mechanic makes them more interesting and fun
2018-06-05T05:32:21Z asarch: Yeah
2018-06-05T05:33:50Z asarch: I am even learning Arduino to, some day, build robots with AI
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2018-06-05T05:46:02Z asarch: If I have (defgeneric draw (point) ...) and then (defmethod draw (p1 point) ...) and (defmethod draw (p2 point) ...), how can I specify which one (p1 or p2) version of draw I want to use?
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2018-06-05T05:47:24Z jackdaniel: if you want two distinct point classes which are drawn differently, you need to create them and specialize on them
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2018-06-05T05:48:03Z jackdaniel: (defclass p1 (point) (…)) (defclass p2 (point) (…)) (defmethod draw ((p p1)) …) (defmethod draw ((p p2)) …)
2018-06-05T05:48:23Z asarch: Ok
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2018-06-05T05:53:49Z asarch: How do you access to the documentation value of each slot?
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2018-06-05T05:58:05Z jackdaniel: did you look in the spec?
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2018-06-05T05:58:13Z jackdaniel: it has a note near the bottom of the page about that
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2018-06-05T05:58:51Z asarch_: Sorry, sorry
2018-06-05T05:58:59Z asarch_: Linux kernel nowadays is really a mess
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2018-06-05T06:00:19Z asarch_ is now known as asarch
2018-06-05T06:00:38Z asarch: Did you know that Microsoft has recently purchased GitHub?
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2018-06-05T06:02:07Z asarch: I guess that, by default, all projects stored there now are property of Microsoft :-(
2018-06-05T06:02:09Z jackdaniel: I'm certain many people heard about that, but it seems a bit offtopic, hence it belongs to #lispcafe
2018-06-05T06:02:28Z jackdaniel: no, that's not how copyright works (again, offtopic ;)
2018-06-05T06:02:36Z phoe: asarch: 1) wrong 2) #lispcafe
2018-06-05T06:02:37Z buoyantair: :3
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2018-06-05T06:05:11Z asarch: You can't access to the :documentation value of each slot?
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2018-06-05T06:08:06Z jackdaniel: you can, but it is not portable. did you read the page in the spec?
2018-06-05T06:08:39Z jackdaniel: one way to do that is: (find-class 'foo), PPM on it in slime, select inspect, go to "SLOTS" slot of the class and inspect individual slot
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2018-06-05T06:09:16Z asarch: Thank you
2018-06-05T06:09:50Z jackdaniel: I'm sure my question got missed in a wall of text – did you read the page in the spec about "documentation" function?
2018-06-05T06:10:39Z didi: How do I copy the intelligent way structures are printed, using my own :print-object? i.e. I want to open a line whenever I print to a too high column.
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2018-06-05T06:13:09Z didi just found function `PPRINT-NEWLINE'
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2018-06-05T06:14:01Z didi: I'm feeling I'm getting closer.
2018-06-05T06:14:05Z asarch: No, I didn't. I just was wondering the Lisp way to access the documentation for the "point.x" slot
2018-06-05T06:16:21Z jackdaniel: why didn't you? this is a way you look up things by yourself (without depending on others)
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2018-06-05T06:17:26Z jackdaniel: as a bonus point trying to look things up first saves you from creating (hopefully misleading) impression, that you value your time more than person's who you ask for help
2018-06-05T06:17:29Z asarch: I thought there was another easy way other than: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/21367083/how-do-i-access-the-documentation-string-of-a-slot-of-a-defclass-in-common-lisp
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2018-06-05T06:18:47Z asarch: Anyway, thank you very much jackdaniel
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2018-06-05T06:19:11Z asarch: Thank you. You really help me a lot. Everything is now in my notes. Thank you
2018-06-05T06:20:07Z jackdaniel: sure. if you look for something, it is a good idea to type function name in l1sp.org and see what comes up
2018-06-05T06:20:17Z jackdaniel: usually answer is in clhs
2018-06-05T06:21:01Z asarch: Ok
2018-06-05T06:21:09Z asarch: Have a nice day
2018-06-05T06:21:13Z asarch: See you later :-)
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2018-06-05T07:46:04Z otwieracz: Hi!
2018-06-05T07:46:34Z otwieracz: Does any of you tried enforcing minmal TLS version in Hunchentoot?
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2018-06-05T07:53:56Z loke: otwieracz: I never used TLS termination in Hunchentoot. I put a haproxy in front of hunchentoot and do the TLS termination there.
2018-06-05T07:54:07Z loke: That allows me to run multiple servers too
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2018-06-05T08:02:39Z otwieracz: Yes, I'd rather do that but due to backward compatibility I need to do this in Lisp here…
2018-06-05T08:04:13Z xificurC: mcclim isn't on the list of recommended libraries on cliki :(
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2018-06-05T08:04:38Z beach: xificurC: You can use it anyway.
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2018-06-05T08:07:58Z loke: xificurC: cl-gss isn't in the list either, but if you want to integrate with Kerberos, that's the one to use.
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2018-06-05T08:08:06Z loke: ...for example
2018-06-05T08:09:29Z xificurC: those are all nice and true comments that don't change the truth - it's not on the list of recommended libraries :( Who's choosing these recommended libraries?
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2018-06-05T08:10:20Z shka: xificurC: human
2018-06-05T08:12:38Z loke: xificurC: It's on the wiki, isn't it?
2018-06-05T08:13:02Z jackdaniel: xificurC: you may modify wiki and add it (but only if you recommend it ;_)
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2018-06-05T08:15:40Z loke: It's added
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2018-06-05T08:41:39Z xificurC: some have said here that codewalking is not a good idea (IIUC it's implementation dependent?). However searching for this term doesn't give too many results for me. In Let Over Lambda there was a section called "code-walking with macrolet". Is this just his idea or is macrolet what is referred to as codewalking? Would that mean using macrolet is di
2018-06-05T08:41:40Z xificurC: scouraged? Are there any books/articles about the danger of codewalking?
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2018-06-05T08:45:19Z jdz: xificurC: I could recommend reading http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/naive_vs_proper_code-walking/
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2018-06-05T08:51:01Z shka: xificurC: macrolet allows you to often avoid code walking
2018-06-05T08:51:12Z shka: as for bad idea: it is
2018-06-05T08:51:33Z shka: corner cases
2018-06-05T08:51:42Z shka: difficult to handle those
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2018-06-05T09:03:55Z jackdaniel: with code-walking you need a full knowledge about special operators used in the source code
2018-06-05T09:04:09Z jackdaniel: CL defines twenty-something special operators and implementations add some on top of that
2018-06-05T09:05:21Z jackdaniel: so it is not trivial in a sense, that you need to handle around 30 special cases and you are never sure, if there isn't some operator you are not aware of
2018-06-05T09:05:42Z xificurC: shka: just to be clear, codewalking is the bad idea, not macrolet, right?
2018-06-05T09:05:46Z jackdaniel: Michael Raskin had a lightning talk about portable code walking during ELS two years ago
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2018-06-05T09:06:24Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/agnostic-lizard/ ←
2018-06-05T09:06:26Z xificurC: jackdaniel: yes someone linked his agnostic lizard repo for me a few days ago
2018-06-05T09:06:30Z xificurC: yes that one
2018-06-05T09:06:59Z jackdaniel: ECL (for instance) bundles its own code walker which handles special cases
2018-06-05T09:07:08Z xificurC: it's just that the readme didn't explain or link to the issue it is solving. And the alternatives are saying "removes macrolet" which I don't know how to explain
2018-06-05T09:07:11Z jackdaniel: it is not documented (except elaborate comments in the source code)
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2018-06-05T09:10:03Z shka: xificurC: what you are trying to do?
2018-06-05T09:10:10Z shka: what problem you are solving
2018-06-05T09:10:48Z xificurC: shka: quenching the unstoppable thirst of understanding everything
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2018-06-05T09:11:34Z xificurC: but also learning from other people's wisdom (and mistakes to not repeat them)
2018-06-05T09:12:37Z shka: right
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2018-06-05T09:14:57Z shka: xificurC: let over lambda explains this quite well i think
2018-06-05T09:14:59Z shka: chapter 5
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2018-06-05T09:20:05Z xificurC: shka: I'm never sure if I can trust that book. Just last time I asked on it and was told it defined macros that have issues with code-walking
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2018-06-05T09:20:43Z xificurC: namely defmacro! and defmacro-g! and their lookup mechanism for gensymed symbols
2018-06-05T09:22:05Z xificurC: the part about why it is difficult to codewalk I understood, however I don't understand what does "macroexpand-dammit (only macroexpansion, removes macrolet)" mean in agnostic-lizard's README
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2018-06-05T09:24:18Z xificurC: ah, jdz 's link is talking just about that lookup mechanism :)
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2018-06-05T09:37:42Z shka: xificurC: well, book pretty much reprises what jackdaniel said
2018-06-05T09:37:59Z shka: and it is very accurate
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2018-06-05T09:41:58Z xificurC: shka: yet he defines a bunch of macros that do naive code-walking
2018-06-05T09:42:15Z xificurC: he being the author of Let Over Lambda
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2018-06-05T09:43:39Z shka: xificurC: did you reach macrolet part?
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2018-06-05T09:44:44Z xificurC: but to summarize what I hope to have learned from this - macrolet is fine when wanting to expand something in the function-call position (sorry for the improper term, not sure what the correct term is). If one wants to do transformations that require searching for anything else naive code walking techniques will fail in bizarre ways
2018-06-05T09:45:00Z xificurC: shka: I'm reading the chapter on forth right now, so yes
2018-06-05T09:45:40Z shka: then you surely noticed how it explicitly states that writing code walkers is challenging
2018-06-05T09:46:23Z shka: xificurC: combination of symbol-macrolet, macrolet and flet can do wonders
2018-06-05T09:48:49Z xificurC: shka: yes I noticed. What I might have not explained explicitly is that I don't know how much can I trust a person that says to understand the complexity of the issue and then goes on creating macros that by one's own definition will fail to take that complexity in mind
2018-06-05T09:50:51Z xificurC: e.g. while I like defmacro!'s g! and o! symbols I don't want to take that shortcut if I'll end up debugging some broken expansion for hours before understanding it's not my bug but the macro's
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2018-06-05T09:51:21Z shka: yp
2018-06-05T09:51:26Z shka: *yup
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2018-06-05T09:51:43Z shka: anyway, code walking usually is a bad idea
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2018-06-05T13:17:54Z jkordani: good morning lisp
2018-06-05T13:18:35Z phoe: hey jkordani
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2018-06-05T13:45:06Z beach: jkordani: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-06-05T13:47:33Z tazjin: beach: do you keep an index over all of us? Are there notes on every person?
2018-06-05T13:47:59Z Bike: rolodex, yo
2018-06-05T13:48:27Z shka: beach and his notebook :D
2018-06-05T13:48:38Z beach: tazjin: No index and no notes.
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2018-06-05T13:49:22Z jkordani: i haven't used this nic yet but I've been around for a while
2018-06-05T13:49:34Z beach: I see.
2018-06-05T13:51:30Z xificurC: beach: are you an author/maintainer of some CLs? I saw you mention sicl and cleavir?
2018-06-05T13:52:02Z beach: xificurC: Yes, but SICL is not finished yet.
2018-06-05T13:52:12Z beach: minion: Please tell xificurC about SICL.
2018-06-05T13:52:12Z minion: xificurC: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2018-06-05T13:52:17Z beach: minion: Please tell xificurC about Cleavir.
2018-06-05T13:52:17Z minion: xificurC: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2018-06-05T13:52:20Z xificurC: one needs to know one's deities
2018-06-05T13:52:46Z xificurC: i don't know if I spelled that right. gods is a simpler word
2018-06-05T13:53:36Z xificurC: beach: any other historical?
2018-06-05T13:54:17Z beach: No, no other Common Lisp implementation.  However, I was one of the creators of McCLIM, now maintained by jackdaniel.
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2018-06-05T13:54:55Z xificurC: nice resume
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2018-06-05T19:34:02Z makomo: xificurC: i just saw the discussion regarding code-walking, it was me who linked the stuff :-)
2018-06-05T19:34:30Z makomo: xificurC: FWIW, while i think LoL is a great book, i also don't like how he just skips over the code-walking issue in his defmacro/g! and defmacro! macros
2018-06-05T19:34:54Z makomo: he completely ignores it in that context
2018-06-05T19:35:52Z makomo: the first time i was reading LoL and came here for help regarding the "brokenness" of those exact macros, i was told there were many before me as well
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2018-06-05T19:36:06Z makomo: it's a shame it's not stated in the book
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2018-06-05T19:37:50Z Bike: i believe the book was published before the sbcl change
2018-06-05T19:37:58Z Bike: and nobody reads errata
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2018-06-05T19:39:48Z makomo: Bike: good point, i haven't checked the errata actually
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2018-06-05T19:41:33Z makomo: "When browsing the text online, you will see the original content, exactly as printed."
2018-06-05T19:41:35Z makomo: why though :^(
2018-06-05T19:43:26Z Bike: consistency
2018-06-05T19:49:54Z makomo: i guess so
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2018-06-05T20:05:30Z pjb: makomo: you may have a look at cl-stepper to see my opinion about code-walking ;-)
2018-06-05T20:06:22Z makomo: pjb: i think you linked it a few days ago. i took a quick look but can't remember much. i'll check it out :-)
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2018-06-05T21:02:46Z drmeister: I wonder if anyone has insight into an issue I'm seeing with docker and quicklisp - I'm trying to do something unusual.
2018-06-05T21:03:25Z drmeister: I've got a docker image (docker hub:  drmeister/cando)   that I'm mounting a ~/.cache and ~/quicklisp/local-projects directory into.
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2018-06-05T21:04:18Z drmeister: These directories are on the host and mounted into the corresponding directories in the docker image.≈
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2018-06-05T21:05:13Z drmeister: Everytime I start the docker container - quicklisp recompiles the systems from the ~/quicklisp/local-projects directory
2018-06-05T21:05:47Z drmeister: I'm trying to also mount the .cache directory - so that it can use the cached fasls - but that is not working.
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2018-06-05T21:06:21Z drmeister: quicklisp/asdf use time stamps of the source files and fasls to decide if it should recompile something - correct?
2018-06-05T21:07:15Z drmeister: Hmm - the docker image uses UTC time by default.   Maybe it doesn't like that the compiled fasls look like they are from a couple of hours in the future.
2018-06-05T21:07:47Z drmeister: But - fasls compiled in the future are always better than fasls compiled in the past. Hmmph
2018-06-05T21:09:14Z akkad: mount option may n ot include the right atime/ctime/mtime
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2018-06-05T21:10:02Z akkad: drmeister: you can fix that with updating the /etc/localtime and other /etc/ timezone items to match the hosts
2018-06-05T21:10:14Z drmeister: I'll try messing with the time settings.
2018-06-05T21:10:46Z akkad: or maybe run a `find ~/.cache -exec touch {} \;`
2018-06-05T21:10:51Z akkad: to set them to the current time in the instance
2018-06-05T21:10:57Z akkad: add that to your Dockerfile
2018-06-05T21:11:23Z akkad: that way you can avoid installing time related packages, and playing the time difference gam
2018-06-05T21:11:30Z akkad: ditto quicklisp dir perhaps
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2018-06-05T21:12:02Z akkad: or, you could use COPY directive instead of -v ~/.cache:~/.cache
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2018-06-05T21:17:18Z akkad takes this to #clasp
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2018-06-05T22:24:48Z akkad notes emacs 26 gets confused with multiple slimes running
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2018-06-05T23:41:52Z aeth: What's the best way to deal with "multiple return value" C functions where you pass in pointers that it sets? I'm thinking static-vectors:with-static-vector and then pass in pointers to each element of that array.
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2018-06-05T23:43:45Z pillton: What is wrong with cffi:with-foreign-objects?
2018-06-05T23:43:52Z Bike: assuming the function just uses the pointers for returning values, i'd just stack allocate, yeah
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2018-06-05T23:49:15Z aeth: pillton: thanks, that's simpler
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2018-06-06T02:06:07Z smokeink: circle is a class, shape is the instance object of it. shape refers to the object you pass to the function as the 1st param
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2018-06-06T02:29:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: how do i tell mcclim what backend to use?
2018-06-06T02:33:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'd like to try out Beagle but i'm not sure how to
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2018-06-06T02:41:47Z on_ion: try to search git for a page of the different backends, afaik there is also descibed how to use them
2018-06-06T02:42:05Z on_ion: (ive seen it, but no web atm)
2018-06-06T02:45:44Z Xach: I don't think beagle is still a going concern. (But I am not much of an authority in this matter.)
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2018-06-06T02:53:21Z theemacsshibe[m]: that's a shame
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2018-06-06T03:22:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-06T03:53:16Z pillton: theemacsshibe[m]: It is probably best to ask in #clim.
2018-06-06T03:53:30Z pillton: aeth: You are welcome.
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2018-06-06T05:54:20Z phoe: Morning!
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2018-06-06T06:05:57Z beach: Hello phoe.
2018-06-06T06:07:36Z phoe: Hey beach .
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2018-06-06T06:26:41Z jdz: akkad: 'find ... -exec {} +' is almost always a better option that \;
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2018-06-06T06:31:24Z LdBeth: How to get the class object from the  name?
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2018-06-06T06:32:02Z beach: clhs find-class
2018-06-06T06:32:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_c.htm
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2018-06-06T06:34:24Z LdBeth: Thanks
2018-06-06T06:34:29Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-06-06T07:23:54Z xificurC: makomo: I just read what you wrote me, thanks. I enjoyed reading let over lambda despite the code-walking issues and elitism. The sorting network chapter was pretty cool. It's also interesting to see how closures can be the building block of OO and how one can create ad-hoc protocols from it
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2018-06-06T07:24:16Z makomo: morning
2018-06-06T07:24:24Z makomo: xificurC: yeah :-)
2018-06-06T07:26:05Z xificurC: someone else (I never remember who) mentioned he doesn't like that (rephrasing) the values in closures cannot be changed, which is very non-lispy
2018-06-06T07:26:30Z schweers: xificurC: they can be changed
2018-06-06T07:26:34Z xificurC: but the pandoric macros did allow that, so again I'm not sure what did he mean
2018-06-06T07:26:52Z xificurC: maybe it was White_Flame
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2018-06-06T07:28:06Z beach: In what way is the book elitist?
2018-06-06T07:28:37Z xificurC: beach: https://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/clarifications
2018-06-06T07:28:58Z xificurC: "Several remarks that might seem offensive are actually just phrasing mistakes on my part"
2018-06-06T07:29:52Z xificurC: the terminology throughout the book really sounded that way to me. All the right vs wrong, lisp vs. blubs etc
2018-06-06T07:30:52Z schweers: people often complain that lispers are elists and look down on other languages.  But really, this is to be expected, given the current state of our field :/
2018-06-06T07:31:18Z schweers: I’ve become very grumpy about other languages myself
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2018-06-06T07:31:54Z beach: I still don't see how that is "elitist" though.  But never mind.  I am in a rotten mood, so I should probably be quiet.
2018-06-06T07:32:04Z xificurC: schweers: I agree and I sound like that to some of my colleagues too. Still it's something to look out for. Noone likes to hear their choices are "wrong" or downright "stupid" and I don't feel competent to judge anyone
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2018-06-06T07:32:33Z schweers: I’m sorry to hear that beach :(
2018-06-06T07:32:58Z beach: Not a big deal.  I'll get over it.
2018-06-06T07:33:11Z xificurC: beach: sorry if the term offended you in any way. It was a subjective feeling not to be confused with what the author actually meant.
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2018-06-06T07:33:53Z schweers: I also wonder ... is being elitist wrong generally?  I feed that it can be justified
2018-06-06T07:35:24Z xificurC: I would say - knowing you are better at something is ok. Being a jerk about is is not.
2018-06-06T07:35:25Z shrdlu68: Well, elitism is usually associated with prejudice and snobbery.
2018-06-06T07:35:26Z beach: xificurC: I have often been accused of being elitist, which is probably why I reacted that way.  But the people who accuse me of that say that because I happen to think it is a good idea for programmers to actually have some training.  Just like I would like for surgeons, lawyers, accountants, etc., to actually have some training.
2018-06-06T07:36:16Z beach: xificurC: Many people seem to think that anyone who has written a 10-line program should be allowed to practice programming professionally.
2018-06-06T07:36:51Z shrdlu68: That in itself is indicative of deeper failures in the industry.
2018-06-06T07:36:58Z schweers: shrdlu68, xificurC: it may be associated with negative behavior, but I don’t think it need be that way.  Anyway, being a jerk about it and having prejudices(?) is not good.  Not my point though.
2018-06-06T07:37:15Z beach: shrdlu68: I totally agree.
2018-06-06T07:37:21Z aeth: If I was programming the way I was trained, then I would only use C++ or Java.
2018-06-06T07:37:26Z schweers: I wonder where this notion comes from.  In no other field is this practiced.
2018-06-06T07:37:34Z schweers: aeth: ditto
2018-06-06T07:37:51Z schweers: but training amounts to more than just having learned a language
2018-06-06T07:37:55Z xificurC: beach: sounds like kids calling you a swot to be honest. I try not to take those people's aggressive behavior to heart
2018-06-06T07:37:58Z jdz: schweers: ever heard of homeopathy?
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2018-06-06T07:38:22Z beach: xificurC: Sure.  Like water off a duck's back.
2018-06-06T07:38:56Z schweers: jdz: these people are called out for being quacks for a reason
2018-06-06T07:39:43Z jdz: Do the people who do the "out calling" sound elitist?
2018-06-06T07:39:45Z aeth: schweers: Yes, but even beyond language choice, I'm not sure that software engineering has a solid foundation. Or, at least, if it has one, it doesn't seem to be the majority position.
2018-06-06T07:40:03Z aeth: If software engineering were to be treated like engineering (and maybe it should be), then it should be engineering first.
2018-06-06T07:40:36Z schweers: aeth: no, I guess the field is too young for that kind of maturity.  Also, software is very different from regular engineering
2018-06-06T07:40:41Z schweers: jdz: not to me, no
2018-06-06T07:40:49Z jach[m]: jdz: even homeopaths are trained to properly dillute the thing.. but also, you can write a 10 line program that does something useful, vs homeopaths that aren't actually useful
2018-06-06T07:41:23Z xificurC: I think too much work has come too quickly and now everyone is trying to do whatever they can to code. It's not exactly anyone's fault, the field is just young
2018-06-06T07:41:24Z jdz: Maybe the analogy is not very good, then.  I rest my point.
2018-06-06T07:41:25Z beach: schweers: I agree that software is very different from the artifacts that engineering is concerned with.
2018-06-06T07:42:21Z schweers: xificurC: I agree.  No one entity is at fault, but the result is still very bad and needs fixing.  And I don’t see much fixing going on.
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2018-06-06T07:43:02Z xificurC: schweers: there's still hope :)
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2018-06-06T07:43:28Z jdz: I think this is relevant, if you have ~40 minutes to spare: https://www.err.ee/836236/video-google-0-projekti-tarkvarainseneri-ettekanne-cyconil
2018-06-06T07:43:43Z shrdlu68: Does every other company need a web developer? This is a bizarre field, and Im struck by how ephemeral our work is.
2018-06-06T07:43:50Z jach[m]: A better analogy might be writing fiction. "Real authors" and readers of them tend to be pretty snobby against things like fanfiction, and even teenage authors producing highly derivative original-enough books.
2018-06-06T07:43:55Z schweers: xificurC: some, yes.  I found a job where I can write software in CL, so that’s a start.  I must say that I’m the only one here, and my collegue insists on using scheme :/
2018-06-06T07:44:38Z aeth: schweers: which Scheme?
2018-06-06T07:44:43Z schweers: gauche
2018-06-06T07:44:48Z schweers: aeth:^
2018-06-06T07:45:11Z xificurC: if the fight is about which lisp to use you're off to a good start!
2018-06-06T07:45:43Z schweers: I know, but using CL really has made me see how it is a better language (and has better implementations) than others, even scheme.
2018-06-06T07:45:51Z schweers: anyway, enough flaming ;p
2018-06-06T07:47:28Z akkad: there are better schemes than Gauche :P
2018-06-06T07:47:51Z p_l: akkad: yes, but they are all separate schemes
2018-06-06T07:47:52Z schweers: that may be the case, but his code is not portable to those other implementations
2018-06-06T07:47:59Z ecraven: akkad: why?
2018-06-06T07:48:05Z ecraven: I mean, what don't you like about gauche?
2018-06-06T07:48:09Z aeth: That's the problem with Scheme. You're (usually) not a Scheme programmer, you're a programmer of some Scheme dialect.
2018-06-06T07:48:18Z p_l struggled for years with Lisp because of pushing scheme as the better option
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2018-06-06T07:48:24Z aeth: And if you like an obscure one (like Gauche) you don't get access to much of an ecosystem.
2018-06-06T07:48:24Z ecraven: aeth: r7rs-large will hopefully change that
2018-06-06T07:48:28Z schweers: several things, but its slow and doesn’t have a debugger, so there are two things to start
2018-06-06T07:49:10Z aeth: ecraven: If r7rs-large came out 3-4 years ago I probably would have finished cl-scheme
2018-06-06T07:49:27Z xificurC: I saw someone mention femtolisp in reddit comments on r/lisp, has anyone had any experience with it? It's an undocumented lisp with 700 stars, how can that even happen?
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2018-06-06T07:49:44Z aeth: xificurC: Front page of HN?
2018-06-06T07:50:00Z xificurC: aeth: that sounds reasonable
2018-06-06T07:50:02Z aeth: Probably 700 "I'll look at it later"s
2018-06-06T07:50:09Z aeth: From HN. That would be my guess
2018-06-06T07:50:22Z xificurC: yeah but there's not much to look at besides the code
2018-06-06T07:51:27Z shka: hmm
2018-06-06T07:51:40Z shka: why people use scheme for large projects anyway?
2018-06-06T07:52:56Z schweers: shka: I don’t get why people use it at all, other than trying it out for educational purposes and the like
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2018-06-06T07:53:35Z shka: well, it is simple and elegant language
2018-06-06T07:53:49Z shka: I see why people like it
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2018-06-06T07:54:16Z schweers: but if you can have the power of Common Lisp instead I don’t see the advantage.
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2018-06-06T07:55:49Z akkad: ecraven: it's fine, has a good stdlib, but runtime it tends to use a lot more ram for the stuff I've done. Just saying there are better schemes to compare directly with cl
2018-06-06T07:55:49Z aeth: Common Lisp seems like the superior language for writing everything in one language.
2018-06-06T07:56:23Z makomo: xificurC: pandoric macros were awesome :D
2018-06-06T07:56:26Z aeth: Scheme could be better than SBCL or CCL in a bilingual environment.
2018-06-06T07:57:50Z ecraven: akkad: ah, sorry, I missed the "comparing to CL" part
2018-06-06T07:58:09Z makomo: xificurC: i really wonder if some time into the future people will get used to those various macrology tricks that usually seem convoluted or fragile/error-prone
2018-06-06T07:58:18Z akkad: e.g. those with compilers
2018-06-06T07:58:35Z ecraven: aeth: I'd prefer Scheme from a theoretical standpoint (I like the language "design" better, I like Lisp-1), but library-wise, there's no question that CL is far ahead
2018-06-06T07:58:39Z makomo: xificurC: doug says that some of the stuff he talks about "hasn't been fully explored and/or understood yet", and that that is the reason for it not being used
2018-06-06T07:58:41Z jach[m]: Does Racket still count as Scheme anymore? I guess maybe it's sort of like Scheme++ with all its extensions.
2018-06-06T07:59:23Z akkad: ecraven: you have any benchmarks that are apples to apples for say sbcl vs chez?
2018-06-06T07:59:24Z ecraven: and regarding debugging, I've never seen any other lisp that even deserves to be called debugging, compared to SLIME
2018-06-06T07:59:39Z akkad: ^^
2018-06-06T07:59:42Z schweers: any scheme which has a defmacro or syntax-rules is a deviation from the standard (as far as I know)
2018-06-06T07:59:43Z ecraven: akkad: no, but my suspicion is that chez would at least be in the same ballpark as sbcl, if not faster
2018-06-06T07:59:49Z ecraven: but I've never done any benchmarking on sbcl
2018-06-06T07:59:51Z akkad: visual inspector in slime... <3
2018-06-06T07:59:54Z xificurC: I never understood the claim that lisp-1 is bad for writing macros. When not capturing vars but using gensyms how does a lisp-1 pose any problems?
2018-06-06T07:59:56Z ecraven: also, chez has close to no libraries
2018-06-06T08:00:01Z schweers: ecraven: exactly!  and even sbcl with slime sometimes does weird stuff
2018-06-06T08:00:05Z ecraven: akkad: I've got a working inspector for chez, the problem is actual debugging
2018-06-06T08:00:18Z akkad: ahh
2018-06-06T08:00:23Z aeth: ecraven: the difference with a fast Scheme and a fast CL is (almost) everyone here could switch to a faster-than-SBCL CL tomorrow
2018-06-06T08:00:29Z akkad: gerbil has some libs
2018-06-06T08:00:30Z ecraven: actually, I've got a working r7rs inspector, it just needs some native support
2018-06-06T08:00:43Z ecraven: my r7rs-swank for gerbil should actually have a working slime inspector
2018-06-06T08:00:55Z akkad: aeth: oh, clasp with the -OMG flag for llvm?
2018-06-06T08:00:55Z aeth: ecraven: Libraries don't matter as much if you're using Scheme as a scripting language
2018-06-06T08:01:00Z edgar-rft: jach[m], AFAIK the main point of Scheme since ever was that only a minimal core language is defined by rNrs and everything else is a big mess :-)
2018-06-06T08:01:05Z aeth: akkad: Probably not.
2018-06-06T08:01:06Z makomo: xificurC: hm i didn't connect that he disliked lisp-1s because they "made macro writing hard". i thought it was just a stylistic issue really, and a huge annoyance also, having to name your variables like "lst" and similar
2018-06-06T08:01:07Z schweers: xificurC: I didn’t get it for the longest time either, but there are in practice fewer problems in a lisp-2.  But I won’t pretend that I can explain it very well.
2018-06-06T08:01:11Z ecraven: aeth: indeed, that's the main thing I hope r7rs-large will remedy, add portability
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2018-06-06T08:01:43Z ecraven: makomo: it's not about macros, I just prefer lisp-1s (just personal preference)
2018-06-06T08:01:47Z ecraven: I don't like funcall
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2018-06-06T08:02:13Z ecraven: if I won the lottery, I'd fund a Scheme that has CL's introspection and debuggability
2018-06-06T08:02:19Z makomo: i'm in the lisp-2 camp :-). i can't stand having to rename variables to something silly just to avoid name clashes
2018-06-06T08:02:22Z makomo: it's so irritating
2018-06-06T08:02:22Z ecraven: but then, that might be actual CL, so might not be useful ;)
2018-06-06T08:02:29Z makomo: and it's always clear from the context which one is being used
2018-06-06T08:02:33Z ecraven: makomo: I understand that ;) I just don't feel that way
2018-06-06T08:02:45Z shka: ecraven: Scheme guys have Racket so don't complain ;-)
2018-06-06T08:03:08Z ecraven: shka: racket is lightyears behind CL in those aspects
2018-06-06T08:03:19Z mrm: As someone who primarily uses scheme/racket, I'm pretty envious of CL's assembly stuff and annotations.
2018-06-06T08:03:24Z shka: they are making good progress
2018-06-06T08:03:38Z schweers: racket disqualified itself to me by not having CLOS
2018-06-06T08:03:49Z ecraven: shka: for example, I don't think you can "enter" a module in racket and redefine things. and I don't think that will ever work
2018-06-06T08:03:50Z shka: as for CL, perhaps only smalltalk is better
2018-06-06T08:03:56Z makomo: schweers: it has an implementation of it :D
2018-06-06T08:04:05Z schweers: makomo: have you ever used it?
2018-06-06T08:04:06Z White_Flame: xificurC: yeah, it was me.  One of my major complaints is that you can't change the behavior of LoL-style objects via recompiling the source code
2018-06-06T08:04:07Z makomo: as an external thing of course
2018-06-06T08:04:09Z makomo: schweers: nope :-)
2018-06-06T08:04:25Z makomo: i've never really used scheme. tried it a couple of times but i like CL better i think
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2018-06-06T08:04:31Z schweers: makomo: try it and you may understand why I don’t like it ;)
2018-06-06T08:05:02Z xificurC: White_Flame: hi. My mind can't imagine such use cases yet
2018-06-06T08:05:03Z ecraven: I've even pondered creating a small wrapper around CL to make scheme code run, but I cannot figure out how to make CL into a lisp-1
2018-06-06T08:05:29Z mrm: I was pretty taken in with Racket's promise of an extensible api to the compiler, but I feel like CL delivers on that front so much more.
2018-06-06T08:05:39Z akkad: or continuations :P
2018-06-06T08:05:39Z White_Flame: xificurC: it's simple runtime editing.  Change CL source code, and next time you call a defun, the new behavior is there.  Change LoL-based source code, and next time you call an object's method, the behavior is still the old behavior
2018-06-06T08:06:31Z xificurC: White_Flame: you mean having a running instance and reloading a source code file.
2018-06-06T08:06:31Z mrm: ecraven: Maybe a macro that defines '(define x y)' as something that binds both slots to the same thing?
2018-06-06T08:06:35Z White_Flame: ecraven: transform (head . rest) => (funcall head . rest) :-P
2018-06-06T08:06:43Z White_Flame: xificurC: yep
2018-06-06T08:06:51Z ecraven: mrm: I don't think that's enough. same for LET, LET* etc.
2018-06-06T08:07:08Z ecraven: but that's how much I'd love to get a fully-working SLIME in Scheme :P
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2018-06-06T08:07:14Z shka: I don't think anyone with sane mind would attempt to use LOL style objects over CLOS objects
2018-06-06T08:07:15Z xificurC: White_Flame: and CLOS achieves that through what, more indirection?
2018-06-06T08:07:21Z White_Flame: yes
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2018-06-06T08:07:33Z White_Flame: CLOS doesn't put functions inside objects
2018-06-06T08:07:33Z shka: but as a concept, they are quite useful
2018-06-06T08:07:34Z mrm: Oh, fair. Maybe something that inserts an #%app wrapper around every function call?
2018-06-06T08:07:35Z White_Flame: functions are toplevel
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2018-06-06T08:07:57Z ecraven: mrm: yea, something like that would probably be needed :-/
2018-06-06T08:09:10Z White_Flame: xificurC: and even in the (defun do-something-to-object (obj var) ...) case without CLOS, that's still runtime modifiable for all objects without additional indirection, simply because it's not hidden inside object instance closures
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2018-06-06T08:09:56Z xificurC: White_Flame: thanks for the clarification
2018-06-06T08:10:02Z White_Flame: now, of course, objects that are configurable in their behavior might want to contain function objects themselves, but when you have a 'class' of object, being unable to edit that general class's behavior during runtime editing is a limitation
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2018-06-06T08:10:43Z White_Flame: and also, introspection of those objects then requires creating facilities to access the closure fields.  Without LoL, you can easily see & introspect the object state
2018-06-06T08:10:57Z White_Flame: because it's just a plain data object with no hiding
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2018-06-06T08:11:31Z xificurC: case uses eql? Can I case over characters?
2018-06-06T08:11:44Z White_Flame: eql works for comparing characters
2018-06-06T08:11:49Z shka: xificurC: sure
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2018-06-06T08:12:41Z akkad: b#e
2018-06-06T08:14:10Z shka: White_Flame: i think that most of things in LOL are demonstration of what CAN be done, not what should be done ;-)
2018-06-06T08:14:19Z White_Flame: I agree
2018-06-06T08:14:31Z White_Flame: it's a good exercise to learn from
2018-06-06T08:14:44Z shka: I actually have good use for pandoric macros
2018-06-06T08:15:58Z shka: i made generators
2018-06-06T08:16:14Z shka: well, sort of
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2018-06-06T08:17:08Z shka: but nontheless, technics desribed in LOL can be sometimes put to good use
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2018-06-06T08:18:23Z White_Flame: it would be nice if there was some standard, programmatic way to access closed-over variables from function objects
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2018-06-06T08:18:49Z White_Flame: but I'm sure there are weird nesting cases that would make access ambiguous or unwieldy
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2018-06-06T08:20:32Z shka: White_Flame: oh god, how horrible code would become if people would work like this
2018-06-06T08:20:36Z phoe: ^
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2018-06-06T08:20:54Z White_Flame: oh, totally.  But it would be useful for logging & debugging
2018-06-06T08:21:14Z White_Flame: but, isn't that LoL-style anyway? ;)
2018-06-06T08:21:20Z White_Flame: like, literally what pandoric macros are for?
2018-06-06T08:21:28Z phoe: there are other standard CL facilities that support logging and debugging, CLOS being the first thing that comes to mind
2018-06-06T08:21:38Z White_Flame: (then again, I guess it's named "pandoric" for a reason ;) )
2018-06-06T08:21:48Z shka: hehe
2018-06-06T08:22:11Z White_Flame: phoe: I simply mean that logging & debugging might want lower level access to data than normal code
2018-06-06T08:22:36Z shka: White_Flame: panodric macro can be usefull here in there, but when they spread in code it quickly becomes turbocancer
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2018-06-06T08:23:20Z phoe: White_Flame: one of Lisp strengths is that almost everything is normal code
2018-06-06T08:23:30Z shka: as for debugging, slime inspector can show you values that are closed over the function
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2018-06-06T08:23:45Z White_Flame: shka: right, because it uses implementation specifics
2018-06-06T08:23:46Z phoe: the moment you split the code into lower code and upper code, then you lose when you want to debug this lower code
2018-06-06T08:23:55Z phoe: because you likely need lower lower code
2018-06-06T08:24:01Z phoe: and then you recurse
2018-06-06T08:25:31Z shka: White_Flame: well, isn't that sufficient for debugging?
2018-06-06T08:25:54Z White_Flame: I mean if you're going to write your own debugging tools
2018-06-06T08:26:10Z White_Flame: to be able to be portable across implementations would be nice
2018-06-06T08:26:25Z xificurC: how much different is using CLOS compared to clojure's way of using (hash-)maps for objects
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2018-06-06T08:28:14Z beach: xificurC: I don't know what Clojure does, but from your description, it sounds like it would be very slow.
2018-06-06T08:28:15Z shka: xificurC: veeeeeery different
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2018-06-06T08:28:33Z shka: and main reason why i still program in CL rather then in clojure
2018-06-06T08:28:46Z beach: xificurC: Are you saying that they do a hash-table lookup for ever slot access?
2018-06-06T08:29:09Z makomo: shka: "oh god, how horrible code would become if people would work like this" -- reminds me of stuff that non-lispers say about lisp's macros :-), but i do agree that it would probably be a mess
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2018-06-06T08:29:44Z xificurC: beach: data structures are immutable, it's not a hash table lookup but I think maps are trees with 32 nodes at each level so lookup is like O(log32 n)
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2018-06-06T08:29:50Z beach: makomo: One hopes that those non-lispers also don't write abstractions in the form of functions.
2018-06-06T08:29:59Z makomo: hahaha :-)
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2018-06-06T08:30:23Z beach: xificurC: I see.  Still much slower than a typical CLOS access.
2018-06-06T08:30:31Z makomo: beach: hmm, how does CLOS do it? or rather, what's the usual technique of speeding it up?
2018-06-06T08:30:59Z shka: xificurC: honestly, i find clojure lack of true object orientation to be it's biggest flaw
2018-06-06T08:31:03Z beach: makomo: The slot accessor goes directly to the instance, with a fixed offset.
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2018-06-06T08:31:16Z shka: it is wonderful language, but i can't accept this
2018-06-06T08:31:23Z p_l: shka: doesn't it have proper object orientation which tends to be ignored in favour of passing maps around?
2018-06-06T08:31:29Z xificurC: shka: it's much less ceremony though :)
2018-06-06T08:31:50Z p_l: there's not much ceremony in CLOS
2018-06-06T08:32:01Z xificurC: p_l: mainly yes
2018-06-06T08:32:03Z p_l: there's much more in actually using objects in Clojure, at least last time I tried
2018-06-06T08:32:05Z shka: p_l: no inheritence for instance
2018-06-06T08:32:20Z p_l: ehh, inheritance I don't care that much, composition otoh
2018-06-06T08:32:23Z makomo: beach: is this something that the compiler has to take care of, or can it be done within lisp?
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2018-06-06T08:32:46Z makomo: in the sense of "does it require any low-level knowledge, etc."
2018-06-06T08:32:58Z p_l: makomo: can be implemented in Lisp, but some optimizations might involve low-level compiler access
2018-06-06T08:33:01Z xificurC: inheritance with maps? Isn't that just merge?
2018-06-06T08:33:10Z beach: makomo: It can be done as portable code, but that code invokes the compiler.  Not a problem though, because the compiler is part of the standard.
2018-06-06T08:33:25Z makomo: mhm i see, beautiful. :-)
2018-06-06T08:33:37Z p_l: WITH-SLOTS can just "preinit" symbols with references direct to slots in portable code for example
2018-06-06T08:33:45Z xificurC: when objects don't carry their methods with them inheritance and composition seem to be more similar
2018-06-06T08:33:54Z p_l: method calls can implement local caches using some CL structures
2018-06-06T08:34:06Z p_l: (which I don't recall right now... LOAD-TIME-VALUE?)
2018-06-06T08:34:21Z makomo: p_l: what would "preinit" be?
2018-06-06T08:34:49Z p_l: makomo: running a possibly complex lookup from instance reference to physical slot contents
2018-06-06T08:34:49Z makomo: oh, as an optimization, instead of the usual symbol-macrolet business?
2018-06-06T08:35:05Z p_l: yeah
2018-06-06T08:35:13Z makomo: that's pretty cool
2018-06-06T08:35:20Z beach: p_l: It is a bit tricky though, since classes can be redefined at run time.
2018-06-06T08:35:35Z makomo: i was just about to ask what about that
2018-06-06T08:35:43Z makomo: so i guess it's not the most commonly used optimization?
2018-06-06T08:35:53Z p_l: beach: yes, but if the class redefinition happens *outside* of with-slots block, my idea doesn't even notice any problem
2018-06-06T08:36:28Z beach: p_l: Oh, so you do the computation when that block is entered?
2018-06-06T08:36:33Z beach: That would be too slow in general.
2018-06-06T08:36:55Z p_l: beach: essentially, when entering a with-slots form, it does the equivalent of (let ((slot-name (compute-effective-slot instance slot-name)) ...)
2018-06-06T08:37:05Z beach: Oh, that's too slow.
2018-06-06T08:37:13Z beach: There are better ways.
2018-06-06T08:37:20Z p_l: beach: I was thinking that this could be "phase 1" of such optimization
2018-06-06T08:37:43Z p_l: also what I can figure in 5 minutes I could implement in portable CL :)
2018-06-06T08:37:59Z beach: makomo: Those optimizations are part of PCL as I recall.
2018-06-06T08:38:31Z makomo: never heard of an implementation named PCL so i suppose you're referring to the book?
2018-06-06T08:38:48Z beach: I know how to do it with accessors, but I don't remember the details of how to make slot-value with a constant slot name fast.  It is similar though.
2018-06-06T08:38:59Z makomo: oh, Portable Common Loops?
2018-06-06T08:39:05Z p_l: makomo: no, "Portable Common Loops", which is where most implementations got their CLOS code from
2018-06-06T08:39:06Z p_l: yep
2018-06-06T08:39:08Z beach: makomo: Portable Common Loops.  A portable implementation of CLOS.
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2018-06-06T08:39:34Z makomo: are Common Loops and Portable Common Loops two different things?
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2018-06-06T08:39:53Z p_l: makomo: Common Loops are, iirc, earlier version of the code that wasn't portable
2018-06-06T08:40:11Z p_l: PCL was cleaned up and portable (and integratable) code
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2018-06-06T08:40:44Z makomo: ah i see. i've heard about a few ancestors of CLOS (CL, Flavors, etc.) but never PCL
2018-06-06T08:41:25Z p_l: funnily enough Allegro CL implements flavors
2018-06-06T08:41:37Z p_l: in somewhat pure CL
2018-06-06T08:42:26Z makomo: does anyone know how the "visitor pattern" would scale when you want to do n-dispatch, where n >= 3?
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2018-06-06T08:42:39Z beach: p_l: My guess would be that they turn (slot-value x 'bla) into a slot reader like (slot-value-bla x), and then it can be treated as a slot reader which I know how to optimize.
2018-06-06T08:42:42Z makomo: how would the generalization even look? how many classes would you have to use?
2018-06-06T08:42:51Z makomo: i wonder if there's a recurrence relation or something for it
2018-06-06T08:42:56Z p_l: makomo: I'm missing something :|
2018-06-06T08:43:00Z beach: makomo: You don't need the visitor pattern in Common Lisp.
2018-06-06T08:43:06Z makomo: of course, i'm aware :-)
2018-06-06T08:43:22Z makomo: i want to analyze how bad it would be in languages that don't have multimethods
2018-06-06T08:43:28Z shka: you don't need majority of patterns in CL
2018-06-06T08:43:34Z makomo: yup
2018-06-06T08:43:36Z p_l still doesn't understand
2018-06-06T08:43:38Z shka: norvig has article about that
2018-06-06T08:43:45Z makomo: p_l: i've only ever seen visitors used for 2-dispatch
2018-06-06T08:43:48Z makomo: never anything beyond that
2018-06-06T08:44:22Z p_l: isn't visitor pattern just MAP over a collection of OBJECTS calling a LAMBDA that calls something in OBJECT ?
2018-06-06T08:44:40Z p_l: makomo: 2-dispatch? where
2018-06-06T08:44:58Z makomo: p_l: the canonical example of "drawing shapes on a display"
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2018-06-06T08:45:07Z makomo: you want to dispatch both on the type of the shape and the type of the display
2018-06-06T08:45:30Z makomo: hence, double dispatch
2018-06-06T08:46:43Z makomo: now let's say you have additional parameters whose types you want to switch on (i.e. n >= 3). i'm interested in how it would be done
2018-06-06T08:47:08Z makomo: oh, when i said "how many classes would you have to use", i meant "abstract classes" or "interfaces"
2018-06-06T08:47:25Z p_l: makomo: I'd compose this shit out of lambdas, tbqh
2018-06-06T08:47:32Z makomo: hahaha
2018-06-06T08:47:44Z makomo: let's say you're stuck within java :-)
2018-06-06T08:47:50Z makomo: this is for scientific purposes only of course :D
2018-06-06T08:48:18Z makomo: i'm not interested in doing it within CL, since CL has multimethods so we don't need the pattern anyway
2018-06-06T08:48:22Z p_l: makomo: I mean, I see the problem described, and I see myself do it by implementing "standard protocols" and passing possibly anonymous class instances that compose the specific environment I want
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2018-06-06T08:48:46Z p_l: the CAD drawing example, I'd have standard drawing protocol, and "drivers" implementing different ways of drawing
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2018-06-06T08:50:09Z p_l: then I could pass an object representing the object to draw an instance of already set-up driver (2nd dispatch as I understand you), which could be an anonymous class that delegates everything to a preconfigured specifically instance of another driver (for example it needs an instance of the drawing medium, like a file or GPU handle), which would be 3rd instance
2018-06-06T08:50:26Z makomo: p_l: hm, would that be almost like CPS? dispatch one, next class, dispatch two, next class, etc.?
2018-06-06T08:50:35Z p_l: no, not really
2018-06-06T08:50:43Z p_l: this is more like abstraction using lambdas
2018-06-06T08:51:14Z p_l: from reading example code on Wikipedia, I see I turned it inside out
2018-06-06T08:51:34Z makomo: i was only referring to this characteristic of "continuing", rather than the core of what CPS is supposed to be, but i guess it's not a good analogy anyway
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2018-06-06T08:51:51Z makomo: right, so you would have these nested instances right?
2018-06-06T08:52:01Z p_l: well, composed instances
2018-06-06T08:52:06Z p_l: you care only about the interface
2018-06-06T08:52:07Z makomo: right
2018-06-06T08:52:15Z p_l: kinda currying multiple dispatch into single dispatch
2018-06-06T08:52:35Z makomo: yup, exactly that
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2018-06-06T08:54:45Z p_l: I kinda see what they do in the example code but I don't exactly see *why*
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2018-06-06T08:55:51Z makomo: i always have to "relearn" how exactly the visitor pattern does what it does, because it's a bit convoluted
2018-06-06T08:56:15Z p_l: the CL example for visitor pattern quickly becomes simple structure traversal xD
2018-06-06T08:58:30Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-06T08:58:59Z makomo: right, the first dispatch is on accept(), and then the second one is on visit()
2018-06-06T08:59:07Z akkad: something not right (map nil #'(lambda (x) (bt:make-thread #'(lambda (x) (format t "~a" x)))) '(1 2 3 4))
2018-06-06T08:59:37Z makomo: however, visit() has multiple overloads, one for every concrete class of the hierarchy that is being traversed
2018-06-06T08:59:48Z makomo: those are all separate functions of course
2018-06-06T08:59:55Z varjag: interesting.. i have two hosts set up to the same timezone, yet sbcl decode-universal-time gives different results
2018-06-06T09:00:11Z varjag: on the same timestamp
2018-06-06T09:00:30Z varjag: what am i missing
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2018-06-06T09:01:00Z p_l: varjag: check env vars
2018-06-06T09:01:06Z varjag: hmm
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2018-06-06T09:03:07Z schweers: akkad: MAKE-THREAD wants a thunk, not a function of one argument.
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2018-06-06T09:04:22Z schweers: akkad: also you might want to either emit an extra newline, or call FINISH-OUTPUT from the threads.
2018-06-06T09:05:20Z varjag: nope, no apparent difference in vars
2018-06-06T09:05:33Z akkad: right
2018-06-06T09:05:36Z akkad: half asleep
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2018-06-06T09:06:13Z akkad: thought thunk was just a scheme term
2018-06-06T09:06:42Z schweers: I first encountered it while reading about what the haskell compiler does (in broad terms)
2018-06-06T09:07:24Z aeth: You probably want this: (map nil #'(lambda (x) (bt:make-thread #'(lambda () (format t "~a" x)) :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*)))) '(1 2 3 4))
2018-06-06T09:08:04Z aeth: (The initial bindings part is one of several ways to use SLIME's stdout instead of the default, which isn't SLIME's, assuming you're in SLIME or something similar)
2018-06-06T09:08:08Z akkad: perfect. (map nil #'(lambda (x) (bt:make-thread #'(lambda () (ql:quickload (ql-dist:name x))))) (ql:system-list))
2018-06-06T09:08:38Z akkad: yeah in slime, good call
2018-06-06T09:09:31Z aeth: oh, (finish-output), too, but SLIME handles it (your inferior lisp might not, which is why it looks like it vanished instead of going there when you didn't bind the stdout)
2018-06-06T09:09:37Z aeth: (map nil #'(lambda (x) (bt:make-thread #'(lambda () (format t "~a" x) (finish-output)) :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*)))) '(1 2 3 4))
2018-06-06T09:10:14Z aeth: Of course, to get the phantom numbers to show up there, just do this: (bt:make-thread #'(lambda () (finish-output)))
2018-06-06T09:10:36Z aeth: I personally I have "12341234" in *inferior-lisp* after doing that.
2018-06-06T09:11:05Z mfiano: aeth: You shouldn't ever prefix (lambda ...) with #'
2018-06-06T09:11:44Z aeth: mfiano: I was just working with akkad's initial code. My normal style doesn't use #'(lambda
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2018-06-06T09:11:52Z mfiano: The lambda macro expands to (function (lambda ...)) which is the same as #'lambda, just less code. More importantly though, if you're in code position the macro will do the correct thing, or you're in data position and using #'lambda will expand to (function (lambda ...)) which is not evaluated. lambda may not even be cl:lambda so the expansion of (cl:function (pkg:lambda ...)) won't even be valid. So best
2018-06-06T09:11:54Z mfiano: case, it does nothing. Worst case it breaks stuff.
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2018-06-06T09:12:46Z schweers: also, it looks weird ;)
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2018-06-06T09:15:45Z akkad: #'lambda screws with my paren matching
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2018-06-06T09:17:09Z varjag: p_l: ok, the versions of sbcl are different.. should look into that
2018-06-06T09:17:52Z aeth: Oh, and if you want 1324 to show up more frequently, perhaps try inserting a sleep. e.g. (map nil (lambda (x) (bt:make-thread #'(lambda () (sleep 1) (format t "~a" x) (finish-output)) :initial-bindings `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*)))) '(1 2 3 4))
2018-06-06T09:18:23Z mfiano: and now you're just not being consistent :)
2018-06-06T09:18:41Z aeth: Well, I'm working with the initial code snippit in one line, it's becoming difficult to notice style
2018-06-06T09:19:27Z akkad: so (lambda can be used the same as #'lambda?
2018-06-06T09:19:36Z aeth: In most but not all Common Lisps.
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2018-06-06T09:19:53Z aeth: Old style guides will say to put the #' there in #'(lambda so it will work on all of them.
2018-06-06T09:20:34Z akkad: thanks for the info
2018-06-06T09:20:51Z mfiano: In all Common Lisps
2018-06-06T09:21:06Z mfiano: The standard requires it, albeit was a late addition to the standard
2018-06-06T09:22:10Z aeth: If it was added after CLtL and before ANSI Common Lisp, then there are "Common Lisps" from 1984-1994 without it, as well as potentially unconforming CLs. I suppose that's increasingly irrelevant, though.
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2018-06-06T09:24:11Z mfiano: Very much so. The standard clearly states, that they should be equivalent
2018-06-06T09:24:16Z mfiano: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_lambda.htm
2018-06-06T09:25:07Z mfiano: By using the reader macro to refer to the second namespace, you are A) preventing shadowed lambda symbols from working, and B) sort of makes no sense because lambdas are anonymous, so no need for the second namespace
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2018-06-06T10:28:20Z jmercouris: how could one transform a single dimensional array of 9 elements into a two dimensional array of 3x3?
2018-06-06T10:28:29Z jmercouris: I can think of ways to do it, but is there a built in?
2018-06-06T10:28:44Z jmercouris: or some clever way that doesn't involve traversing each element and populating the second array?
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2018-06-06T10:33:13Z heisig: (make-array '(3 3) :displaced-to OTHER-ARRAY)?
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2018-06-06T10:36:27Z jmercouris: heisig: yes, indeed, thank you
2018-06-06T10:37:16Z schweers: jmercouris: note that array displacement can come with a severe performance cost
2018-06-06T10:37:27Z jmercouris: schweers: I'll keep that in mind, thanks
2018-06-06T10:37:43Z schweers: I tried array displacement in a project where performance is really important and it was really horrible.  Obviously, YMMV.
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2018-06-06T10:40:55Z jmercouris: Yeah, I don't need to invoke it a lot, this is a prototype project as well
2018-06-06T10:41:03Z jmercouris: it's the QR Video concept I was talking about earlier
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2018-06-06T10:48:15Z ym: Do somebody has "error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: (0 . 1), 2" messages in emacs 26.1 + slime?
2018-06-06T10:52:30Z loke: Yay! I probably used CADADR for the first time for real today :-)
2018-06-06T10:52:49Z loke: In the repl, but still
2018-06-06T10:54:15Z _death: ym: yes, someone mentioned it lately.. the solution was to use slime bleeding edge (clone the repo)
2018-06-06T10:55:05Z loke: This has been known for well over a year if you've been on git versions of Emacs ;-)
2018-06-06T10:56:02Z _death: true.. but if you're using bleeding edge emacs, then it's likely that you're doing the same for slime and friends ;)
2018-06-06T10:56:28Z loke: _death: For the longest time I didn't. I just manually poatched Slime :-)
2018-06-06T10:57:29Z _death: well, I have patches for slime that fix such issues, and wonder how come no one else had them so they didn't get fixed
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2018-06-06T11:11:24Z ym: _death, thanks.
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2018-06-06T11:15:34Z jmercouris: I prefer my editor not to crash randomly, I upgraded to 26, but I then upgraded again to 25 :D
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2018-06-06T11:20:58Z schweers: jmercouris: why?  did emacs 26.1 crash?  I find it to be a tad slow, but seems stable so far.
2018-06-06T11:23:35Z jmercouris: schweers: I can't recall, some incompatibility with some packages on my system
2018-06-06T11:24:05Z jmercouris: to be fair, it wasn't a literal crash, but grinding to halt in which C-g repeatedly pressed until I could do something again
2018-06-06T11:24:23Z schweers: I had a few problems with elfeed, probably due to added records in emacs 26.1, but I could just remove the database.  Not perfect, but was good enough for me.
2018-06-06T11:29:53Z jmercouris: I use elfeed as well, that was just one of a few packages
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2018-06-06T11:39:32Z jmercouris: I have an array like this 1,2,3, how might I make an array padded to 6 elements like this, 1,2,3,0,0,0
2018-06-06T11:39:44Z jmercouris: I tried make-array with initial-element and initial-contents, but you can't use both
2018-06-06T11:39:50Z jmercouris: which makes sense I guess
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2018-06-06T11:47:16Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: Make a second array from the first?
2018-06-06T11:48:08Z jmercouris: Yes, this is possible
2018-06-06T11:48:25Z jmercouris: I'm still thinking about it though, maybe there is some better way
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2018-06-06T11:52:24Z shka: jmercouris: (map-into (make-array 6 :initial-element 0) your-array)
2018-06-06T11:52:43Z shka: jmercouris: (map-into (make-array 6 :initial-element 0) #'identity your-array)
2018-06-06T11:52:46Z shka: there
2018-06-06T11:53:21Z shrdlu68: jmercouris: I'm not sure, but what about #'adjust-array?
2018-06-06T11:53:27Z jmercouris: it's a non adjustable array
2018-06-06T11:53:30Z jmercouris: simple-vector
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2018-06-06T11:54:54Z jmercouris: shka: Lol, man, nice
2018-06-06T11:55:06Z jmercouris: It does work, I'll tell you that
2018-06-06T11:55:17Z shka: sure it does
2018-06-06T11:55:23Z shka: unless you want fill pointer
2018-06-06T11:55:27Z jmercouris: Blows my mind, what made you think of this idea?
2018-06-06T11:55:30Z makomo: know your maps :-D
2018-06-06T11:56:10Z shka: jmercouris: well, working with sequences
2018-06-06T11:56:14Z makomo: schweers: why would displacement cause such a large performance hit?
2018-06-06T11:56:51Z shka: map in lisp is probabbly one of fundamental tool to work with generic sequences
2018-06-06T11:57:34Z shka: so i just ended up using it a lot for code that is supposed to work with both list and arrays
2018-06-06T11:57:45Z schweers: what I forgot to mention was that I was using simple arrays of a specific type, so a displaced array causes an indirection and possibly bounds-check (I’m speculating her).  I expected a mild performance hit, but was quite surprised at how significant it was.  I have no idea why it was that much, and sadly don’t have the numbers anymore.
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2018-06-06T11:58:20Z shka: displaced-arrays in sbcl are quite sluggish
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2018-06-06T11:59:06Z jmercouris: shka: I know the function, but I would have not thought of using it this way
2018-06-06T11:59:07Z makomo: hm weird. i would expect arrays to just have a dope/stride vector and a pointer to storage (and possibly a reference to the array that owns the underlying storage)
2018-06-06T11:59:33Z makomo: i don't see why they would be so much less efficient
2018-06-06T11:59:57Z makomo: the bounds check should also happen when accessing a normal array too no?
2018-06-06T12:00:08Z schweers: I guess so, but I’m not sure
2018-06-06T12:00:18Z shka: makomo: something, something, garbage collector
2018-06-06T12:00:31Z makomo: shka: elborate :-)
2018-06-06T12:00:39Z shka: i wish i could!
2018-06-06T12:01:31Z makomo: it's both weird and nice how displacing arrays in part of the standard library
2018-06-06T12:01:38Z makomo: is*
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2018-06-06T12:01:55Z makomo: maybe because i'm just not used to seeing it in other languages (i don't know any language whose standard library comes with such features)
2018-06-06T12:02:01Z shka: i profiled code with statistical profiler and there was awfull lot of time in functions releated to garbage collection
2018-06-06T12:02:02Z makomo: although python has numpy, C++ has Boost.MultiArray, etc.
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2018-06-06T12:03:13Z shka: i suspect that sbcl just ensures that there will be no memory leak on specialized, displaced arrays
2018-06-06T12:03:45Z shka: and that results in performance hit
2018-06-06T12:04:04Z shka: it makes sense if you think about it
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2018-06-06T12:05:13Z shka: AFAIK there is whole lot of weak references involved in that, and voila
2018-06-06T12:05:29Z shka: you have bottleneck
2018-06-06T12:05:41Z makomo: why a whole lot? why not just 1?
2018-06-06T12:07:03Z shka: well, each value in vector that someone displaces to is potentially about to disappear
2018-06-06T12:07:32Z shka: if life time of displaced vector is >> to life time of original vector problem may occur
2018-06-06T12:07:50Z shka: especially if you are taking like 1% of original size
2018-06-06T12:08:19Z makomo: ah true, you can take smaller views of the original array, right
2018-06-06T12:08:22Z makomo: not just reshaped views
2018-06-06T12:08:41Z shka: i wish i could explain it better, but i don't understand it any better i am afraid
2018-06-06T12:08:58Z shka: folks at #sbcl surely knows all details
2018-06-06T12:09:31Z shka: i just don't use displaced arrays in performance critical parts of code
2018-06-06T12:09:41Z shka: and it is sufficient
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2018-06-06T12:16:50Z pierpal: doesn't make much sense. a displaced arrays contains a reference to the base array and will prevent the entire array from being collected
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2018-06-06T12:37:35Z shka: pierpal: array yes, but what about content of the array?
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2018-06-06T12:38:46Z pierpal: the content is held there by the fact of being contain e in the array. nothing umusual
2018-06-06T12:39:19Z pierpal: *contained, umusual
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2018-06-06T12:39:31Z pierpal: *unusual!
2018-06-06T12:39:57Z shka: in such case, you may have memory leak
2018-06-06T12:40:07Z pierpal: how
2018-06-06T12:40:20Z shka: well, array may not hold value but REFERENCE to it
2018-06-06T12:40:55Z shka: and sbcl seems to attempt to turn those into weak references somehow
2018-06-06T12:41:05Z shka: anyway, I better shutup about it
2018-06-06T12:41:21Z shka: i am not qualified to discuss this
2018-06-06T12:41:37Z pierpal: hmmm
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2018-06-06T13:15:23Z xificurC: is using #1= reader macro considered bad taste? This seems to replicate anaphoric macro features in a funny way. (if #1=(+ 2 3) #1# 0)
2018-06-06T13:15:49Z beach: xificurC: The expression will very likely still be evaluated twice.
2018-06-06T13:16:06Z beach: But, no, it is not considered bad taste.
2018-06-06T13:16:45Z xificurC: beach: oh, I thought it's going to be evaluated only once
2018-06-06T13:16:54Z xificurC: let's try
2018-06-06T13:17:13Z beach: xificurC: Not very likely.  The compiler typically does not take that sharing into account.
2018-06-06T13:17:25Z xificurC: twice
2018-06-06T13:17:30Z xificurC: so it's like copying the s-exp
2018-06-06T13:17:33Z beach: Plus, the compiler would have to prove that there are no side effects.
2018-06-06T13:17:39Z beach: No, it is not copying it.
2018-06-06T13:17:40Z xificurC: not storing the result in some special #1#
2018-06-06T13:17:59Z xificurC: I'll look up the docs, don't bother
2018-06-06T13:18:07Z beach: But it is traversing it twice, and compiling similar but duplicate code for it each time.
2018-06-06T13:18:08Z xificurC: surely you have better things to do
2018-06-06T13:18:21Z beach: xificurC: #1# is a reader feature.
2018-06-06T13:18:30Z beach: By the time the compiler sees it, the #1# is gone.
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2018-06-06T13:18:42Z beach: All the compiler could possibly see is sharing.
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2018-06-06T13:18:58Z beach: But it very likely doesn't bother.
2018-06-06T13:19:18Z xificurC: so it's the same list in memory (eq)
2018-06-06T13:19:38Z beach: If you are lucky, it could use common sub-expression elimination, but it would do that even if you duplicate the expression.
2018-06-06T13:20:05Z beach: However, on today's architectures, it is not clear that common sub-expression elimination is worth the effort.
2018-06-06T13:20:20Z beach: It is often cheaper to recompute the expression than to store the result.
2018-06-06T13:20:43Z beach: And, not many programmers will repeat big and costly common sub-expressions anyway.
2018-06-06T13:21:06Z beach: The ones that will be repeated are small, like (1+ x) (+ x y), (car x), etc.
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2018-06-06T13:47:13Z makomo: beach: "If you are lucky, it could use common sub-expression elimination, but it would do that even if you duplicate the expression." -- meaning that this elimination usually happens on some lower form, like IR?
2018-06-06T13:50:20Z Xof: I have a feeling that code with shared structure invokes undefined behaviour in CL.
2018-06-06T13:50:32Z makomo: why?
2018-06-06T13:50:34Z Xof: I don't know
2018-06-06T13:50:44Z Xof: I just spent 5 minutes trying to find a reference and failed, so my feeling might be wrong
2018-06-06T13:50:48Z makomo: i doubt that #= and ## would exist if that was the case
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2018-06-06T13:51:35Z Xof: well they would still be useful for data structures with shared structure
2018-06-06T13:51:48Z Xof: and for printing code with gensyms in it
2018-06-06T13:52:00Z Xof: I mean specifically list structure, but, again, I'm failing to find a reference so I might well be wrong
2018-06-06T13:52:24Z Xof: (and I use (do ((x #1=(complicated thing) #1#)) ...) all the time, so I'm a hypocrite as well)
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2018-06-06T13:53:24Z _death: that's an old idiom, so I doubt they'd rule it out
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2018-06-06T13:54:20Z schweers: I can’t help but think that its more readable to use a local binding (i.e. with a name) instead, at least in most cases
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2018-06-06T13:56:32Z Bike: infinitely deep or long code is banned somewhere, i think, but i doubt structure sharing is banned in general
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2018-06-06T13:56:51Z Bike: macroexpansion can get you that pretty easily, and e.g. the clhs page on load-time-value talks about the possibliity
2018-06-06T13:57:11Z Bike: sorta
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2018-06-06T14:15:06Z ym: govna
2018-06-06T14:15:36Z ym: What about Open Genera. Is there free fork?
2018-06-06T14:15:50Z shka: no
2018-06-06T14:16:02Z ym: Strange.
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2018-06-06T14:18:12Z shka: ym: it is closed to the bone
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2018-06-06T14:21:23Z drunk_foxx[m]: Genera's source code was leaked in 2015, if I am not mistaken
2018-06-06T14:21:53Z shka: does not make it open source
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2018-06-06T14:24:11Z ym: It makes it easy to convert to open source version.
2018-06-06T14:24:19Z ym: If you know what I mean.
2018-06-06T14:24:44Z ym: There is even manual how to run it on linux.
2018-06-06T14:25:22Z beach: makomo: Yes, common sub-expression elimination is usually done on the level of a flow graph.
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2018-06-06T14:27:18Z beach: ym: You can't legally transform proprietary code.  It is called "derivative work" and it is subject to the restrictions of copyright law.
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2018-06-06T14:30:29Z ym: What do you mean telling "transform"? I can use the proprietary code as a textbook and write my own free implementation of principals I learned.
2018-06-06T14:31:11Z flip214: you still have to re-type _everything_, no copy/paste
2018-06-06T14:31:22Z Bike: don't be stupid
2018-06-06T14:31:24Z beach: flip214: That's not enough.
2018-06-06T14:31:29Z Bike: it's not a matter of typing
2018-06-06T14:31:35Z flip214: well, of course it has to be _different_ enough too
2018-06-06T14:31:40Z Bike: it's "intellectual" property because it's tied to actual ideas, not some kind of physical labor
2018-06-06T14:31:55Z flip214: Bike: there are no software patents in europe.
2018-06-06T14:32:07Z flip214: so ideas alone shouldn't be protected.
2018-06-06T14:32:10Z shka: flip214: does not matter
2018-06-06T14:32:24Z shka: ym: sadly, no open source genera
2018-06-06T14:32:29Z beach: ym: That's debatable.  And that is also the reason why people who write free software avoid looking at proprietary code as much as possible.
2018-06-06T14:32:34Z Bike: can you copyright it?
2018-06-06T14:32:36Z shka: which kinda sucks
2018-06-06T14:33:07Z shka: want lisp os, do it yourself
2018-06-06T14:33:09Z flip214: Bike: AFAIK only one specific expression of an idea.
2018-06-06T14:33:16Z shka: like in the case of mezzano
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2018-06-06T14:33:41Z shka: mezzano is amazing considering timescale
2018-06-06T14:33:44Z flip214: clean-room implementations typically go the route of a description that's surely "different enough"
2018-06-06T14:34:28Z Bike: i don't think using the leaked code as a textbook would really be clean room reimplementation
2018-06-06T14:34:50Z beach: I agree with Bike.
2018-06-06T14:34:57Z beach: It would be very risky.
2018-06-06T14:35:29Z shka: anyway, i understand that genera is cool
2018-06-06T14:35:47Z shka: but it is pretty much obsolete at the same time
2018-06-06T14:35:49Z beach: I think we can do better than Genera anyway.
2018-06-06T14:35:58Z shka: beach: exactly
2018-06-06T14:36:01Z flip214: Bike: no, surely not. you'd need a transcription step inbetween, eg. via an english text.
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2018-06-06T14:36:38Z shka: given time and effort, we can build even better things that will last longer
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2018-06-06T14:36:57Z Bike: right
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2018-06-06T15:21:57Z on_ion: what would be equivalent to --script for sbcl from REPL, (load "") ?
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2018-06-06T15:23:23Z beach: on_ion: What is it that you are trying to do?
2018-06-06T15:25:36Z on_ion: just this https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
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2018-06-06T15:25:58Z on_ion: its fine, though, just trying to save a step
2018-06-06T15:26:26Z beach: Sure, you can just LOAD it.
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2018-06-06T15:28:13Z on_ion: beach: ok, ty =)
2018-06-06T15:28:23Z beach: ywlcm
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2018-06-06T16:12:35Z skidd0: hello everyone
2018-06-06T16:12:45Z beach: Hello skidd0.
2018-06-06T16:13:10Z skidd0: anyone here with experience in lisp web frameworks?
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2018-06-06T16:13:43Z beach: skidd0: Yes, several.  But you are better off just asking your real question.
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2018-06-06T16:14:24Z skidd0: Sure. So web-wise, I'm coming from a Flask(python) background.
2018-06-06T16:15:14Z skidd0: I'm looking for a framework that's "lispy" to help me learn lisp, but hopefully without a lot of boilerplate
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2018-06-06T16:15:50Z skidd0: for html/templating, I'd like to stay on the traditional HTML side, so something like Clip
2018-06-06T16:16:10Z skidd0: but really, i'm looking for solid, light, extensible frameworks
2018-06-06T16:16:37Z skidd0: i've looked at hunchentoot but that seems to be best as a server, not an app framework
2018-06-06T16:16:42Z skidd0: radiance looks interesting
2018-06-06T16:17:22Z skidd0: lucerne is flask inspired
2018-06-06T16:17:47Z skidd0: so, basically, i was hoping to hear opinions and insight on different frameworks
2018-06-06T16:18:04Z skidd0: from people with experience in them, not just my superficial overviews from project homepages
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2018-06-06T16:26:14Z beach: skidd0: You can ask Shinmera about Radiance, since he wrote it.  But he has his own channel I think.  Can't remember the name.
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2018-06-06T16:32:46Z skidd0: alright. I'f you do think of the channel, please PM me
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2018-06-06T16:34:59Z beach: #shirakumo apparently.
2018-06-06T16:36:08Z skidd0: thank you, beach
2018-06-06T16:36:14Z beach: Anytime.
2018-06-06T16:37:20Z on_ion: skidd0: try cowboy2, seems big
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2018-06-06T16:38:23Z skidd0: oh that's erlang
2018-06-06T16:38:29Z skidd0: i should have specified CL
2018-06-06T16:38:49Z on_ion: sorry! i meant caveman2 =)
2018-06-06T16:39:18Z skidd0: oh yeah! i was just looking at that
2018-06-06T16:39:23Z skidd0: and a fork of it, ningle
2018-06-06T16:39:35Z on_ion: caveman2 is based on ningle
2018-06-06T16:39:44Z on_ion: i plan to use it but with cl-who instead of drakma
2018-06-06T16:40:15Z on_ion: and some parenscript and possibly 'ceramic' to get full CL web happening
2018-06-06T16:40:49Z skidd0: why parenscript over stick JS?
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2018-06-06T16:42:07Z on_ion: macros
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2018-06-06T16:42:29Z skidd0: ah
2018-06-06T16:42:49Z on_ion: https://github.com/quakerquickoats/hoovy/blob/master/nova-js/parenscript-additions.lisp
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2018-06-06T16:47:08Z skidd0: i'm really new to lisp, so i'm not sure what i'm looking at here
2018-06-06T16:47:15Z skidd0: some lisp macros
2018-06-06T16:47:19Z skidd0: some js macros
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2018-06-06T16:48:29Z skidd0: oh the js ones are all wrapped up in one definition statement
2018-06-06T16:48:35Z skidd0: so those are a bunch of macros
2018-06-06T16:48:38Z skidd0: i see
2018-06-06T16:50:53Z akkad: skidd0: #clnoobs is a also a great resource.
2018-06-06T16:51:36Z skidd0: thanks
2018-06-06T16:52:32Z on_ion: skidd0: i forget, that was a few years ago =) it felt like i had puppet strings on top of javascript though, which is my main aim with LISP, do more effect with less cause
2018-06-06T16:52:46Z on_ion: like setting up a bunch of gears to move the world but only having to turn a little wheel =P
2018-06-06T16:52:55Z skidd0: i see
2018-06-06T16:53:02Z skidd0: yes that's what's pulling me into lisp atm.
2018-06-06T16:53:24Z skidd0: i am attracted to the bottom up, top down programming that Paul Graham's talked about in some of his essays
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2018-06-06T16:53:31Z skidd0: and designing DSLs for tasks
2018-06-06T16:53:39Z on_ion: human time and effort is precious , may as well get the machine working as we designed them (, prolog too)
2018-06-06T16:53:49Z skidd0: right
2018-06-06T16:54:15Z on_ion: yes me too, and the idea of starting out prototype dynamically, then working toward (molding/guiding) a static implementation of whatever we are doing
2018-06-06T16:54:26Z skidd0: YES
2018-06-06T16:54:38Z skidd0: and i'm falling in love with the iterative design with a REPL
2018-06-06T16:54:54Z skidd0: I use vim w/ vlime rather than the usual emacs+slime
2018-06-06T16:55:06Z on_ion: same, i was almost dependant on edit/compile/run/debug cycle of aforetimes
2018-06-06T16:55:08Z skidd0: after trying spacemacs for a heavy week
2018-06-06T16:55:49Z on_ion: thats ok =)
2018-06-06T16:56:25Z skidd0: it's really nice to just "have an idea" > "make a basic prototype of idea" > "refine that" > "have another idea"
2018-06-06T16:56:40Z skidd0: it's straight up FUN to program again
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2018-06-06T16:58:02Z on_ion: yes =) when i pick up a guitar or piano, i just play, realtime improv, no premeditated design tech spec to implement, just let creation happen joyfully
2018-06-06T16:58:29Z skidd0: that's the nature of creation to me, play
2018-06-06T16:59:37Z on_ion: yeah =) if its not fun, chances are we are destroying =P
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2018-06-06T17:00:54Z skidd0: i dunno, that can be fun, too
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2018-06-06T17:13:19Z on_ion: skidd0: certainly two sides of the same coin, as creation destroys and destruction creates, but in fun or not may decide which side we are looking at=)
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2018-06-06T18:09:35Z ZigPaw: as I long time ViM user I found doom-emacs config for emacs and sly for common lisp interaction quite sleek and functional (and I can use org-mode as an added bonus).
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2018-06-06T18:24:56Z sukaeto: skidd0: +1 for caveman2.  If you're used to Flask, you'll feel (relatively) at home
2018-06-06T18:25:15Z skidd0: the thing is, i'm not sure staying on safe shores it the best approach
2018-06-06T18:25:16Z sukaeto: (I say "relatively" because Python and Common Lisp are quite different)
2018-06-06T18:25:21Z skidd0: i want something lispy
2018-06-06T18:25:27Z skidd0: that makes me think lispy
2018-06-06T18:25:29Z sukaeto: well, it *is* Lispy
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2018-06-06T18:26:13Z sukaeto: but it's got syntax for Sinatra style routes and whatnot
2018-06-06T18:26:30Z skidd0: yeah i saw that
2018-06-06T18:26:34Z skidd0: it did seem familiar
2018-06-06T18:27:11Z sukaeto: also Djula, which if you're familiar with Jinja, it's essentially that for Lisp
2018-06-06T18:27:23Z skidd0: i saw that in lucerne!
2018-06-06T18:27:57Z skidd0: i am used to that sort of template flow
2018-06-06T18:28:03Z skidd0: and extending a template in blocks
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2018-06-06T18:30:09Z sukaeto: (granted, there's no requirement to use Djula with caveman2, but it comes along for the ride when you ql:quickload caveman2)
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2018-06-06T18:32:35Z sukaeto: also also: if you really want to get experience with Lisp.  Eitaro Fukamachi's (the guy who wrote caveman) documentation tends to be pretty Spartan - usually a simple crash course on possible uses of the library.  For the rest of it, you've got to look at his code.
2018-06-06T18:32:49Z sukaeto: which, I've found his code to be pretty easy to read/navigate.
2018-06-06T18:32:55Z skidd0: i've come to realize that's kinda the lisp way
2018-06-06T18:33:07Z sukaeto: (full disclaimer: I've also been using Lisp for some time)
2018-06-06T18:33:08Z skidd0: you're expected to check the source, tests, and exported package stuff
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2018-06-06T19:08:26Z on_ion: ^_^
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2018-06-06T20:47:19Z ealfonso: I know it might be silly to ask this here. I want to write a simple web application. I have used clojure (ring, etc) and hunchentoot in CL. why should I prefer one over the other?
2018-06-06T20:47:20Z ealfonso:  
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2018-06-06T20:54:31Z _death: you used both and ask us why you should prefer one to the other?
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2018-06-06T20:55:47Z ealfonso: It seems that clojure is more 'sophisticated' for web app development, but I liked working with hunchentoot and I haven't used clojure in a while... I guess I'm looking for the lack of a strong reason to use clojure
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2018-06-06T20:58:41Z _death: flip a coin :)
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2018-06-06T21:00:45Z _death: if it results in a bad choice, bend it a little
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2018-06-06T21:13:49Z aeth: Does anyone use unit testing with CI, especially Gitlab CI? Is testing beyond unit testing ever done in CL?
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2018-06-06T21:45:30Z ZigPaw: aeth yes, look at tests in ceramic for example: https://github.com/ceramic/ceramic/tree/master/t there are integration tests there as well (not much sophisticated but they are there). And you can see travis.yml file how they are executed by CI (and it is quite similar I think to yaml file from gitlab).
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2018-06-06T22:00:28Z aeth: ZigPaw: thanks!
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2018-06-06T23:04:00Z jasom: https://github.com/gschjetne/json-mop <-- this looks very interesting to me; anyone here have experience with it?
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2018-06-06T23:21:10Z pillton: I wonder if it maintains an instance's state in a JSON data structure as well?
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2018-06-06T23:23:23Z jasom: pillton: what do you mean?
2018-06-06T23:24:56Z jasom: pillton: encoding to json from a class should be mechanical for all specifiers except :any
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2018-06-06T23:25:03Z pillton: In data flow programming you often have computations where the output is the input with a few entries added. It is possible to create an instance of the class representing the input and the class representing the output from the same data structure.
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2018-06-06T23:26:48Z jasom: pillton: this looks like it's specifically for round-tripping objects in JSON, so there doesn't appear to be a way to add or remove slots when encoding
2018-06-06T23:26:58Z jasom: it does allow for default values when decoding though
2018-06-06T23:27:27Z pillton: I am not sure if it is a good idea to do what I said earlier, but the pattern occurred often enough that I wondered if was worth thinking about the relationship between type and the representation of state.
2018-06-06T23:27:51Z jasom: this assumes that the representation of the state is a function of the type
2018-06-06T23:28:43Z pillton: "This" as in what I am saying or json-mop?
2018-06-06T23:28:51Z jasom: pillton: json-mop
2018-06-06T23:29:10Z jasom: I have an ad-hoc unspecified implementation of half of json-mop's functionality in one of my webapps...
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2018-06-06T23:34:22Z pillton: It is probably worth banding together and giving it some more thought. This functionality with support in parenscript would be cool.
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2018-06-06T23:36:49Z _death: the approach seems similar to Go's
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2018-06-06T23:40:43Z jasom: oh right, my implementation did have support on the parenscript side, which this doesn't appear to provide...
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2018-06-07T00:09:37Z ealfonso: I'm using this json library which uses plists as default type when deserializing json... and I'm reading that "Common Lisp does not use a symbol's property list as extensively as earlier Lisp implementations did. Less-used data, such as compiler, debugging, and documentation information, is kept on property lists in Common Lisp." https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node108.html is it worth using this library, or should I
2018-06-07T00:09:37Z ealfonso: switch to cl-json?
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2018-06-07T00:10:21Z Bike: plists are a type, which is kind of a distinct concept from a symbol's property list
2018-06-07T00:13:16Z White_Flame: it's simply the difference between (key val key val ...) and ((key . val) (key . val) ...)
2018-06-07T00:13:50Z White_Flame: and of course which utility functions you use to fetch/set/append data
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2018-06-07T01:16:29Z LdBeth: In CCL I (DEFCLASS CLASS-WITH-SLOT (STANDARD-CLASS) (SLOT)) and then (DEFCLASS FOO () () (:METACLASS CLASS-WITH-SLOT)), but it complains “SIMPLE-ERROR The class #<STANDARD-CLASS STANDARD-OBJECT> was specified as a super-class of the class #<STANDARD-CLASS FOO>; but the meta-classes #<STANDARD-CLASS CLASS-WITH-SLOT> and #<STANDARD-CLASS STANDARD-CLASS> are incompatible”
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2018-06-07T01:18:04Z LdBeth: I tested on CLisp and ECL and it passed.
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2018-06-07T01:46:14Z Bike: mop validate-superclass
2018-06-07T01:46:14Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/validate-superclass.html
2018-06-07T01:46:19Z Bike: LdBeth:
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2018-06-07T02:27:33Z ealfonso`: I can't seem to find how to get a hunchentoot stream to use with cl-who... is there an example?
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2018-06-07T02:32:09Z ealfonso`: https://github.com/mswift42/clblog/blob/master/clblog.lisp
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2018-06-07T03:03:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-07T03:13:23Z LdBeth: Bike: Thanks
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2018-06-07T06:14:50Z White_Flame: is there some way in slime to see how the dynamic bindings for a symbol change throughout the backtrace?
2018-06-07T06:15:37Z ealfonso`: is there something like slurp in CL?
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2018-06-07T06:32:38Z on_ion: ealfonso`: what kind of slurp?
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2018-06-07T06:33:00Z on_ion: White_Flame: there must be! can one trace a symbol or somthing?
2018-06-07T06:33:44Z White_Flame: I think 'e' might work to evaluate the variable, but it's curiously consistent throughout the trace
2018-06-07T06:34:13Z White_Flame: I'm getting symbols from READ-FROM-STRING that are from the CL-USER package instead of the package I'm in, for no discernable reason
2018-06-07T06:34:29Z White_Flame: so I want to trace what's happening with *PACKAGE* in the stack trace as it blows up
2018-06-07T06:34:34Z on_ion: hmm that is strange
2018-06-07T06:34:37Z White_Flame: *after it blows up
2018-06-07T06:34:57Z White_Flame: when starting a thread, it appears to default *package* to cl-user, which is one thing
2018-06-07T06:34:59Z on_ion: possibly trace the symbol lookup itself and check *PACKAGE*
2018-06-07T06:35:06Z on_ion: aha
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2018-06-07T06:35:26Z White_Flame: but every format output and 'e' in sldb shows *package* as in my project
2018-06-07T06:36:05Z on_ion: can start thread with other package ?
2018-06-07T06:36:29Z White_Flame: I'm doing a (let ((*package* ...) ) ...) around my thread pool functions
2018-06-07T06:36:50Z White_Flame: I'm wondering if there's some lingering compile-time effect
2018-06-07T06:38:14Z on_ion: hmm im wondering that as well, perhaps there is a specific way to enter package
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2018-06-07T06:56:40Z White_Flame: is there a simple way for FORMAT ~s to always print out a symbol's package?
2018-06-07T06:57:07Z White_Flame: eg given a simple print, pack:sym, pack::sym, or #:sym
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2018-06-07T06:57:18Z White_Flame: *given a symbol to print
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2018-06-07T06:58:19Z on_ion: hmm i read about something like that recently
2018-06-07T06:58:45Z on_ion: something in here perhaps? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1511981/how-to-examine-list-of-defined-functions-from-common-lisp-repl-prompt
2018-06-07T06:59:34Z White_Flame: no, the issue is that FORMAT elides the package if it matches *package*.
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2018-06-07T07:17:16Z beach: White_Flame: Set the *package* to the KEYWORD package.  Then it always prints package prefixes.
2018-06-07T07:17:27Z White_Flame: ah, that's a good idea
2018-06-07T07:17:43Z White_Flame: as it doesn't take NIL
2018-06-07T07:17:48Z beach: White_Flame: A new thread does not take the current thread-local values of special variables by default.
2018-06-07T07:18:01Z beach: It takes the global values.
2018-06-07T07:18:36Z beach: I think SBCL has some extra arguments to the thread-creating function to bind special variables.
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2018-06-07T07:19:27Z beach: Not sure it is supported in Bordeaux threads.
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2018-06-07T07:20:51Z White_Flame: because it's threadpooling, the thread launch doesn't matter as much as my thread-local bindings that surround the context switch
2018-06-07T07:21:19Z beach: "context switch"?
2018-06-07T07:21:34Z White_Flame: switching between handlers in a single arbitrary thread within a threadpool
2018-06-07T07:21:56Z White_Flame: each job registered to the pool starts off running with a particular set of dynamic bindings
2018-06-07T07:22:07Z White_Flame: and those are set for the duration of the task in that thread, not for the thread as a whole
2018-06-07T07:22:17Z beach: OK, but one thread can not normally influence the thread-local values of special variables in another thread.
2018-06-07T07:22:26Z White_Flame: I'm not
2018-06-07T07:22:57Z beach: OK, I guess I misunderstood your example then.
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2018-06-07T07:26:39Z White_Flame: beach: fundamentally, there's a read-from-string deep in code called within the threadpool, which is returning symbols from CL-USER instead of my project's package
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2018-06-07T07:27:18Z White_Flame: and the code that launches inside the threadpool is surrounded by dynamic bindings for *PACKAGE*
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2018-06-07T07:27:56Z beach: I see.
2018-06-07T07:28:24Z White_Flame: relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYjUhq0YNE0
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2018-06-07T07:31:54Z engblom: I have several times been reading Lisp tutorials, and I have a very basic understanding of the language. Somehow I never really get time to study the tools in order to begin making real things and not single file stuff.
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2018-06-07T07:32:18Z engblom: I wonder if there is any tutorial fulfilling these thoughts: https://pastebin.com/q8am8NGa
2018-06-07T07:32:38Z engblom: Or if anyone would be willing to make a such tutorial?
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2018-06-07T07:34:40Z beach: It looks like you found yourself a project.
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2018-06-07T09:40:32Z DemolitionMan: hi
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2018-06-07T09:50:56Z beach: Hello DemolitionMan.
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2018-06-07T10:00:18Z DemolitionMan: beach: hi!
2018-06-07T10:01:20Z DemolitionMan: beach: do you know any nice icons set on linux for lisp files? :)
2018-06-07T10:01:43Z beach: Nope, sorry.
2018-06-07T10:01:55Z beach: I suggest the lizard icon.
2018-06-07T10:02:25Z DemolitionMan: ?
2018-06-07T10:02:45Z beach: The one you see here: http://metamodular.com/Computing/computing.html
2018-06-07T10:03:10Z beach: It is freely available, and I made a scalable version of it.
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2018-06-07T10:05:20Z beach: Lunch.  I'll be back later.
2018-06-07T10:05:23Z DemolitionMan: beach: ah ok, thanks
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2018-06-07T11:19:15Z shka: DemolitionMan: use lisp alien :D
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2018-06-07T11:21:09Z shka: http://lisperati.com/lisplogo_warning2_128.png
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2018-06-07T11:31:12Z schweers: I have an operation which may fail due to a full disk, and would like to offer a restart, which simply tries again (i.e. give the user the possibility to clean up some space and then proceed).  Is there a standard idiom for such a restart?  I’m thinking of using a tagbody, but it feels icky to me.
2018-06-07T11:32:58Z shka: schweers: why not just recursive call in restart?
2018-06-07T11:33:36Z shka: that's what i would do, anyway
2018-06-07T11:33:43Z schweers: for some reason I first dismissed that ... but I guess you’re right
2018-06-07T11:34:16Z shka: it is practical and easy
2018-06-07T11:34:20Z shka: :-)
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2018-06-07T11:34:50Z _death: you can have a with-retry-restart macro that wraps forms in a loop
2018-06-07T11:36:50Z _death: something like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/801#801
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2018-06-07T11:45:40Z schweers: _death: that looks quite reasonable, thanks for the hint.  I’ve gone with a recursive call for now, but I’ll try to keep that macro in mind.
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2018-06-07T13:32:10Z shka: can someone reccommend me a cute and short word for data in frame?
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2018-06-07T13:36:49Z jackdaniel: cell
2018-06-07T13:36:58Z jackdaniel: or "bee"
2018-06-07T13:37:38Z jackdaniel: because you know, hives have frames which have cells which are inhibited by bees ;-)
2018-06-07T13:38:37Z jackdaniel: inhabited*
2018-06-07T13:39:16Z LdBeth: Pixel
2018-06-07T13:39:18Z jackdaniel: if you want to make it lispy, you may call them lambda-bees
2018-06-07T13:39:27Z jackdaniel: or lizard-bees ^_^
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2018-06-07T13:48:34Z ZigPaw: lispy-bees?
2018-06-07T13:48:37Z shka: jackdaniel: i like word "cell"\
2018-06-07T13:48:52Z ZigPaw: or frame (like in data frame)?
2018-06-07T13:49:02Z shka: ZigPaw: exactly data frame
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2018-06-07T13:50:20Z jackdaniel: "bee" is more cute
2018-06-07T13:50:20Z ZigPaw: but at the end, lizard-bees have my vote ;)
2018-06-07T13:50:29Z jackdaniel: and lizard-bee is a magnificent being ;)
2018-06-07T13:50:59Z shka: http://www.inspirefusion.com/media/2015/bee_on_lizard_head1.jpg
2018-06-07T13:52:08Z jackdaniel: I say "mermeid", you say "fisherman and a trout"
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2018-06-07T13:52:33Z shka: jackdaniel: alternative was scary https://i.pinimg.com/originals/92/a0/ed/92a0edde4a34011860c753fdc1bba8e3.jpg
2018-06-07T13:52:59Z ZigPaw: indeed magnificent ;)
2018-06-07T13:53:26Z jackdaniel: you say "rhino", I say "war unicorn"
2018-06-07T13:53:36Z jackdaniel: OK, enough :) sorry for offtopic from my side
2018-06-07T13:55:41Z warweasle: Did someone say way-animal?
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2018-06-07T13:55:51Z warweasle: war
2018-06-07T13:55:57Z warweasle can not spell today.
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2018-06-07T14:42:41Z shrdlu68: Heh, repl.it has APL but not CL.
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2018-06-07T14:51:10Z loke: shrdlu68: OK, that's just ridiculous... Kids these days.
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2018-06-07T15:57:51Z aeth: Does that mean that APL is used as a web server language more often than CL, then?
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2018-06-07T16:16:47Z loke: aeth: :-)
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2018-06-07T16:22:38Z aeth: Controlling the printing of floating point seems like a mess. I've determined that (format t "~8,5F" number) seems to work best for a decent range of numbers, but obviously far from all of them. I guess I'll use that when (< some-number number 10) and use ~E for numbers where 5 decimal places wouldn't be enough or would be too much.
2018-06-07T16:23:31Z aeth: I could probably raise 8 so the good range is a bit more. 8 means "-", one digit, and "." can fit. What I'm trying to do is make them line up in columns.
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2018-06-07T16:26:20Z shka: what you would expect to happen after passing negative number as index into sequence?
2018-06-07T16:26:24Z shka: a) type-error
2018-06-07T16:26:32Z shka: b) argument-out-of-bounds-error
2018-06-07T16:26:38Z shka: c) something different
2018-06-07T16:27:23Z Bike: an out of bounds error could also be a type error
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2018-06-07T16:28:12Z shka: i already decided to argument-out-of-bounds in case of, well attempting to access element after end
2018-06-07T16:28:16Z shka: Bike: not in my case
2018-06-07T16:28:30Z shka: so it is either one or another
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2018-06-07T16:30:47Z aeth: I think this would work for printing floats in a column in general, but the decimal point won't line up if mixing scientific notation and regular. It also means 6-8 digits if in the range and 5 out of the range. (if (< -1000 number 1000) (format stream "~10,5F " number) (format stream "~10,4E " number))
2018-06-07T16:31:04Z aeth: Or is there a way built into format?
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2018-06-07T16:32:40Z shka: aeth: format is not extendable directly
2018-06-07T16:32:55Z shka: edi's book goes into details
2018-06-07T16:32:58Z shka: i recommend reading
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2018-06-07T16:36:26Z aeth: Well technically it looks like http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_ccc.htm could fit with "~10,3G" or something (i.e. once at 10^3, use exponential) but then it looks like I don't have the ~F formatting options
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2018-06-07T16:44:08Z beach: shka: What sequence function are you using?
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2018-06-07T16:49:37Z shka: beach: my own
2018-06-07T16:49:53Z beach: Ah, OK.
2018-06-07T16:50:02Z shka: i am securing it so it will behave nicely
2018-06-07T16:50:15Z aeth: shka: Are you using extensible sequences?
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2018-06-07T16:50:28Z shka: no, because it is only for sbcl
2018-06-07T16:50:35Z shka: i have my own protocol
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2018-06-07T16:51:16Z shka: i think that argument-out-of-bounds is more reasonable error
2018-06-07T16:51:49Z shka: i have to go, take care everyone
2018-06-07T16:51:52Z aeth: I also wrote my own API for the custom lists I wrote. (typed lists)
2018-06-07T16:52:18Z aeth: I didn't write an nth/elt equivalent, though, so I didn't have to deal with that problem
2018-06-07T16:53:01Z shka: aeth: well, honestly i am trying to cook data frame library
2018-06-07T16:53:27Z shka: but i want it to integrate with data structure library i also have
2018-06-07T16:53:46Z shka: so i can use same algorithms on both
2018-06-07T16:54:03Z aeth: ah
2018-06-07T16:54:39Z shka: so i really need to have consistent behavior on all interfaces or otherwise i will spend eternity debugging
2018-06-07T16:55:28Z shka: basicly i have all blocks needed, but some of the blocks have sharp edges
2018-06-07T16:55:53Z shka: and i need to polish those a little bit
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2018-06-07T18:11:41Z buoyantair_: guys
2018-06-07T18:11:46Z buoyantair_: where is lisp used these days?
2018-06-07T18:17:27Z pjb: everywhere.
2018-06-07T18:17:46Z pjb: buoyantair_: https://franz.com/success/
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2018-06-07T18:18:35Z ZigPaw: also in startups, like grammarly.
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2018-06-07T18:20:31Z beach: buoyantair_: Why do you ask?
2018-06-07T18:20:52Z buoyantair_: beach: Im learning some CS using lisp (how to code courses..)
2018-06-07T18:21:00Z beach: Great!
2018-06-07T18:21:10Z buoyantair_: Just wanted to know if Im ever going to use it again or not like I dont want to do that!
2018-06-07T18:21:23Z beach: buoyantair_: That depends a lot on yourself.
2018-06-07T18:21:27Z buoyantair_: I mean I learn the concepts, but I also put the time to learn the language
2018-06-07T18:21:29Z buoyantair_: exactly
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2018-06-07T18:22:00Z beach: buoyantair_: Many people here use it every day.  You can decide to do the same.
2018-06-07T18:22:15Z buoyantair_: What do you guys and girls use it on? :O
2018-06-07T18:22:25Z ZigPaw: Even if you might not use it in commercial settings it still will enchance your view on programming.
2018-06-07T18:23:06Z beach: buoyantair_: Are you looking for an answer in the form of a computer type, or an operating system?
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2018-06-07T18:23:50Z buoyantair_: beach: Im specifically looking for in which field it's mostly used it
2018-06-07T18:23:54Z buoyantair_: used in*
2018-06-07T18:24:03Z ZigPaw: what courses you are doing with Lisp? :)
2018-06-07T18:24:05Z aeth: buoyantair_: Some common uses for CL as mentioned on IRC are AI (the traditional place, but not as common these days), web programming, and games. It's also used in at least one tiling window manager (stumpwm).
2018-06-07T18:24:47Z pjb: buoyantair_: well, if you want to be hired in my startup, knowing CL will help put your resume on top of the stack…
2018-06-07T18:24:55Z beach: buoyantair_: Oh, Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language.  People here use it for various things, like writing compilers, editors, games, web sites, symbolic math programs, graphic user interfaces.  You name it.
2018-06-07T18:24:58Z aeth: buoyantair_: One of the primary advantages of CL over the languages it most directly competes with (e.g. Python) is the performance of its most popular implementations (SBCL, CCL), which ahead-of-time compile to native code.
2018-06-07T18:25:05Z ZigPaw is using it only for his pet projects.
2018-06-07T18:25:28Z aeth: It's also very, very easy to do things at compile time in Common Lisp.
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2018-06-07T18:25:41Z beach: buoyantair_: https://www.wisdomandwonder.com/link/1018/please-dont-assume-lisp-is
2018-06-07T18:25:46Z ZigPaw: in my startup most of the devs I hired had to implement a basic scheme interpreter/transpiler.
2018-06-07T18:25:50Z buoyantair_: mm :O
2018-06-07T18:25:57Z pjb: buoyantair_: but even if you are never hired to do CL programming, you can still learn it and continue using it as a secret weapon.
2018-06-07T18:26:10Z buoyantair_: pjb: ;)
2018-06-07T18:26:16Z drdo: secret weapon
2018-06-07T18:26:25Z drdo: program circles around your coworkers!
2018-06-07T18:26:55Z pjb: buoyantair_: see for example: https://www.cliki.net/s-exp%20syntax
2018-06-07T18:27:31Z pjb: By putting a sexp-syntax on classic languages, you can then use CL to generate programs in those languages.
2018-06-07T18:27:44Z pjb: So instead of writing the code yourself, you can write programs (macros) to generate the code for you.
2018-06-07T18:28:03Z buoyantair_: Hm okay Thanks for all the info!
2018-06-07T18:28:10Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-06-07T18:49:56Z slondr: Is CLIM at all still updated/supported?
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2018-06-07T18:58:20Z aeth: yes
2018-06-07T18:58:38Z aeth: There is a channel called #clim
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2018-06-07T19:03:17Z p_l: slondr: even ported to new platforms
2018-06-07T19:03:23Z slondr: cool
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2018-06-07T19:49:29Z thodg: is there a way to make # (sharp) not a reader macro character ?
2018-06-07T19:50:00Z thodg: make it a normal symbol character again
2018-06-07T19:52:55Z Bike: i think set-syntax-from-char, where the from-char is an example of what you want it to be instead
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2018-06-07T21:46:05Z pjb: thodg: you would use set-syntax-from-char
2018-06-07T21:46:52Z pjb: thodg: (set-macro-character  #\#  nil t *readtable*)  (set-syntax-from-char #\# #\a *readtable*)
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2018-06-08T03:36:06Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-08T03:55:56Z shka_: beach: hello
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2018-06-08T04:06:14Z LdBeth: It’s nice to have a full text index engine generating results to a html page
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2018-06-08T05:11:08Z ealfonso: i'm annoyed by all the "package X also exports/shadows the following symbols..." warnings/errors when refactoring... can slime help me make refactoring easier?
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2018-06-08T05:14:51Z ealfonso: I tried uninterning all the symbols, which worked. just wondering if there's a way for slime to do it for me
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2018-06-08T05:19:12Z ealfonso: I guess I can manually call something like this: https://pastebin.com/90PTTqjE
2018-06-08T05:19:34Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: you can do C-- C-c x
2018-06-08T05:19:51Z PuercoPop: (C-c x exports a symbol, and when called with a negative argument it unexports it)
2018-06-08T05:20:37Z ealfonso: PuercoPop thanks. good to know
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2018-06-08T05:42:49Z aeth: I usually just restart SLIME with M-x s-r-i-l when I change package definitions. It's (for me) faster than messing with uninterning, except maybe if it's just one.
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2018-06-08T05:57:33Z White_Flame: how do I get quicklisp to not muffle warnings & errors from a build?
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2018-06-08T06:12:39Z pillton: Hmm (quickload "X" :verbose t) ?
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2018-06-08T06:20:00Z akkad: (ignore-errors (ql:quickload :x))
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2018-06-08T07:02:20Z panji: hi everyone, please help me with this problem. if i have class x and y, both class have slot a and b, is it better to create abstract class with slots a and b or create class a-mixin and b-mixin ?
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2018-06-08T07:05:52Z on_ion: class with slot a and b
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2018-06-08T07:09:49Z panji: thanks, any particular reason not using mixin?
2018-06-08T07:11:56Z theemacsshibe[m]: are there any garbage collectors written in lisp (or anything remotely readable) i can glean from?
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2018-06-08T07:18:50Z shka: theemacsshibe[m]: not open source i am afraid
2018-06-08T07:19:01Z shka: sbcl has GC written in C
2018-06-08T07:19:12Z shka: don't know about ccl
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2018-06-08T07:22:11Z theemacsshibe[m]: that's a shame
2018-06-08T07:23:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'm just looking to make a tri-color GC since mark-and-sweep is kinda boring and isn't particuarly usable on a C64 with a slow 6502 and quite a bit of memory
2018-06-08T07:23:26Z jackdaniel: I would be suprised if Mezzano had GC which is not written in CL
2018-06-08T07:23:37Z jackdaniel: but I don't know it as a fact
2018-06-08T07:24:44Z jackdaniel: you may ask on #mezzano
2018-06-08T07:24:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: movitz is a manageable size to hack, i'll see what theirs is like
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2018-06-08T07:25:50Z theemacsshibe[m]: mezzano is kinda big though
2018-06-08T07:26:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: nice, there's a #'kill-the-newborns
2018-06-08T07:26:22Z jackdaniel: on the other hand it is actively developed, so you can ask questions
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2018-06-08T07:27:12Z akkad: sigchild
2018-06-08T07:27:55Z theemacsshibe[m]: movitz has one of those copying things
2018-06-08T07:27:57Z shangul: is that a new introduced signal?
2018-06-08T07:28:18Z theemacsshibe[m]: i still want my full 64k like the cake-haver-and-eater i am
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2018-06-08T07:34:17Z on_ion: manual v. auto gc
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2018-06-08T07:35:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: manual gc:
2018-06-08T07:35:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: do you care about `#(important crap goes here)` [yN]?
2018-06-08T07:35:30Z edgar-rft: (loop :across heap :collec garbage)
2018-06-08T07:35:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: (loop for thing across heap do (cffi:free thing))
2018-06-08T07:36:18Z theemacsshibe[m]: i mean it'll all be garbage in the end right?
2018-06-08T07:36:22Z xificurC: why not just (malloc :as-much-as-the-sytem-allows-right-now) and write gc-free code?
2018-06-08T07:36:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: cause the timesharing people said it'd be annoying
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2018-06-08T07:39:28Z jackdaniel: xificurC: because if function conses anything and you don't clean up the garbage, you'll run off the memory eventually
2018-06-08T07:39:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: that's true
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2018-06-08T07:40:18Z xificurC: no. if you don't clean up the garbage you and you run off memory you obviously need more memory! It's so cheap now!
2018-06-08T07:40:34Z jackdaniel: sbcl allows inhibiting gc, you'll get exactly what you have suggested
2018-06-08T07:41:25Z xificurC: seeing the java projects here it's fun to watch how little actual work a server is able to perform
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2018-06-08T07:42:12Z xificurC: let 3 people work in parallel, oh no, OOM
2018-06-08T07:42:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: ooh i know, if we turn that off we can finally compete with --crap-- industry standard/grade languages like C++ and Rust
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2018-06-08T07:43:49Z theemacsshibe[m]: must be something like SB-SUPER-VERY-SECRET::PUT-LANGUAGE-BACK-30-YEARSP /s
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2018-06-08T07:45:52Z jackdaniel: I'm pretty sure Lisp 30 years ago still had GC ;)
2018-06-08T07:45:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: oh! i was joking! cmon!
2018-06-08T07:46:11Z xificurC: wasn't it the first?
2018-06-08T07:46:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: GC is so (alexandria:random-elt '(80s 90s))
2018-06-08T07:46:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: yes mccarthy invented GC to make Lisp less painful
2018-06-08T07:47:03Z flip214: jackdaniel: I believe the originally designed lisp didn't, because it was just a theory --- and that can easily assume an unbounded tape...
2018-06-08T07:48:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: pedantically i don't think lisp had a "tape" since it wasn't a turing machine model
2018-06-08T07:48:25Z theemacsshibe[m]: instead mccarthy went for the lambda calculus
2018-06-08T07:49:00Z shka: i forgot about mezzano
2018-06-08T07:49:02Z shka: right
2018-06-08T07:49:10Z jackdaniel: flip214: out of curiosity I've checked LISP 1.5 manual
2018-06-08T07:49:10Z ZigPaw: Wikipedia quote: "Garbage collection was invented by John McCarthy around 1959 to simplify manual memory management in Lisp". So maybe the first one didn't had, as it was "on paper" but it got it pretty much quickly.
2018-06-08T07:49:14Z jackdaniel: it has an appendinx about GC
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2018-06-08T07:50:04Z edgar-rft: that means garbage is collected at the end
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2018-06-08T08:05:42Z on_ion: heh
2018-06-08T08:08:44Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: It is impossible to write a garbage collector in portable Common Lisp.  You need direct access to memory.  In fact, I don't think you can write it in valid C either.
2018-06-08T08:09:43Z White_Flame: certainly the "brains" of a GC could be written in CL, with the actual accesses being a clearly demarcated api
2018-06-08T08:10:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: well it might not be common but if your language exposed its heap and tagging functions there's a start
2018-06-08T08:10:18Z beach: Absolutely.
2018-06-08T08:10:32Z White_Flame: I'm also a C64 weirdo and have toyed around with GC ideas, but nothing concrete
2018-06-08T08:10:34Z beach: I firmly intend to write the SICL GCs in Common Lisp as much as possible.
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2018-06-08T08:12:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: i wrote my sl3.c fork's garbage collector in valid C
2018-06-08T08:12:44Z beach: I seriously doubt that.
2018-06-08T08:12:59Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's not very good though and probably allocates a byte to hold the tag since i used an enum
2018-06-08T08:13:15Z beach: For example, as I recall, you can't legally convert an integer to an address in C.
2018-06-08T08:13:33Z beach: And you are not allowed to have pointers outside allocated arrays.
2018-06-08T08:13:38Z beach: ... or structs.
2018-06-08T08:13:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: that is true
2018-06-08T08:14:01Z theemacsshibe[m]: it compiles with gcc and cc65 (and even borland turbo c with some work)
2018-06-08T08:14:01Z beach: So it is very hard to write things like that so that they respect the C standard.
2018-06-08T08:14:13Z beach: That's a totally different matter.
2018-06-08T08:14:38Z on_ion: beach: that is a very strict standard i think, integers and pointers are converted often
2018-06-08T08:14:44Z theemacsshibe[m]: pretty sure the usual ritual is something like (void*)integer_thing
2018-06-08T08:15:08Z on_ion: although days ago emacs just converted to pointers instead of integers for their 'lisp object' types
2018-06-08T08:15:09Z beach: on_ion: That's why I am saying that you have to rely on undefined behavior in order to make it work.
2018-06-08T08:15:17Z on_ion: (something about pointer bounds)
2018-06-08T08:15:23Z theemacsshibe[m]: yeah sl3.c uses casts to make that possible
2018-06-08T08:15:35Z theemacsshibe[m]: unions could get closer to levels of less frightening
2018-06-08T08:15:37Z on_ion: beach: nah, pointers *are* integers!
2018-06-08T08:15:51Z beach: on_ion: Sorry to hear that you think that.
2018-06-08T08:15:55Z on_ion: printf("%x\n", some_pointer);  =>  0x..
2018-06-08T08:15:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's all a binary sludge in memory after al
2018-06-08T08:15:58Z theemacsshibe[m]: *all
2018-06-08T08:16:07Z White_Flame: pointers aren't "C integers"
2018-06-08T08:16:16Z on_ion: beach: are you american? do you want to teach me or just look down on me?
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2018-06-08T08:16:36Z on_ion: memory addresses are numbers
2018-06-08T08:16:42Z on_ion: most C "optimisation" relies on that
2018-06-08T08:16:44Z beach: Neither.
2018-06-08T08:16:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: anyways this is a disgusting scheme imitation which is in no way safe or usable and shall never be distributed even though it's GPL3+
2018-06-08T08:17:34Z theemacsshibe[m]: it has poke so at least i can make fun colours though
2018-06-08T08:18:38Z on_ion: (ptr1 + ptr2) - ptr3 = ... have you guys used C at all? =) what goes on in our heads and what the compiler accepts are two different things
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2018-06-08T08:19:12Z White_Flame: and what the C standard says is undefined behavior is still undefined behavior
2018-06-08T08:19:18Z beach: on_ion: And what the compiler accepts is also different from what the standard allows.
2018-06-08T08:19:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: remember your C arithmetic: a[n] == n[a]
2018-06-08T08:20:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: anyways "principle of least astonishment" was what i was trying to get at with using unions
2018-06-08T08:20:54Z on_ion: beach: yep.
2018-06-08T08:21:43Z jackdaniel: there is uintptr_t in C99 to address the issue
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2018-06-08T08:22:50Z jackdaniel: so given newer standard pointers may be handled without relying on undefined behavior (just syaing)
2018-06-08T08:23:00Z beach: So I find it an interesting observation that, if you use C as a programming language for applications, it is nearly impossible to use because you have no automatic memory management, and you can't re-program assignment the way you can in C++, and if you use C as a programming language for system programming, then your code must be written to have undefined behavior.
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2018-06-08T08:23:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: i'm sure it's possible to not have undefined behavior
2018-06-08T08:23:39Z White_Flame: if you're doing system programming then all what matters is the environment guarantees
2018-06-08T08:23:54Z White_Flame: *is what
2018-06-08T08:23:55Z beach: White_Flame: Oh, I agree.
2018-06-08T08:24:14Z theemacsshibe[m]: my VGA driver has the line: struct vgac* terminal_buffer = (struct vgac*) 0xb8000;
2018-06-08T08:24:21Z beach: White_Flame: I am just saying that things like operating systems and device drivers are not written in "C", but in a particular implementation.
2018-06-08T08:24:24Z theemacsshibe[m]: oh that would be undefined, that's still an int i'm casting
2018-06-08T08:24:52Z shrdlu68: I find the dimorphism between "system programming" and the rest of programming itself interesting.
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2018-06-08T08:25:03Z theemacsshibe[m]: k&r please
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2018-06-08T08:32:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: i think any attempt at making C into something somewhat high level is a bad idea
2018-06-08T08:33:29Z theemacsshibe[m]: IMO a lot of C comes from pointer twiddling and low level stuff so trying to implement anything high level or non-C-like while still retaining C characteristics will just feel wrong and carry bad habits
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2018-06-08T08:35:34Z theemacsshibe[m] uploaded an image: gc.png (23KB) <https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/FzCQoRFdDDnkrjYGESwJWisd>
2018-06-08T08:35:40Z theemacsshibe[m]: (this is what years of failed french lessons lead to. bad jokes.)
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2018-06-08T08:58:13Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Sorry your French lessons were not satisfactory.
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2018-06-08T09:00:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: they call their flag a "tricolore" when trying to not say it's french
2018-06-08T09:01:00Z theemacsshibe[m]: curioustBbeachualso have you ever tried being informal, Bbeach ?? ? beach?
2018-06-08T09:01:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: ok matrix broke.....erm
2018-06-08T09:01:13Z theemacsshibe[m]: have you ever tried being less formal, beach ?
2018-06-08T09:02:20Z beach: theemacsshibe[m]: Sure.  Come to ELS, and you will see the less formal version of me.
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2018-06-08T09:17:28Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's a bit far away
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2018-06-08T09:19:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: no lisp stuff in Australia
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2018-06-08T09:20:46Z jackdaniel: nice trip to Italy may widen your horizons ;-)
2018-06-08T09:21:22Z theemacsshibe[m]: i've got no money
2018-06-08T09:22:05Z theemacsshibe[m]: my plan of selling music to rent out servers to run fancy web apps to get out of home quickly isn't working well
2018-06-08T09:22:06Z theemacsshibe[m]: i've only made $5.50
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2018-06-08T09:23:30Z beach: You can get together with pillton and organize ALS.
2018-06-08T09:23:36Z beach: I'll show up.
2018-06-08T09:24:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: please re-read *** and reconsider that
2018-06-08T09:25:54Z beach: Sorry, I thought you hinted that you are in Australia, so I suggested organizing a Lisp Symposium there.
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2018-06-08T09:27:58Z theemacsshibe[m]: i am in australia and i have no money
2018-06-08T09:28:07Z theemacsshibe[m]: also i don't know of many people who use lisp here, let alone australia-specific companies
2018-06-08T09:28:20Z beach: That's why I suggested talking to pillton.
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2018-06-08T09:33:55Z theemacsshibe[m]: also i doubt i can actually run things, i'm not even out of high school
2018-06-08T09:34:13Z beach: Hmm, yeah, you might have to wait a bit.
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2018-06-08T09:40:16Z schweers: hm, ELS 2019 starts on 01.04. ;)
2018-06-08T09:40:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: i suppose i can make fun of python people in computing at least
2018-06-08T09:40:37Z theemacsshibe[m]: isn't that half of being a lisp programmer?
2018-06-08T09:41:41Z schweers: making fun of people?  not as far as I’m concerned.  although I do pitty some other people.  I’m also sure they pitty me.
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2018-06-08T09:59:44Z xificurC: I started with a 100 line macro that was a `(lambda (x) (let (many-vars-here) (labels (many-functions-here) ...))). Switched it to a function and pulled out all the internal functions and variables. Now I have many small definitions almost all taking no arguments but modifying 7 toplevel specials
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2018-06-08T10:00:26Z xificurC: it's funny how one can read and read about good design and still produce crap, constantly
2018-06-08T10:02:01Z xificurC: now I see thought that 1 should be toplevel, 4 should be grouped into 1 object and be an argument where needed along with the other 2. :(
2018-06-08T10:02:49Z xificurC: do you guys write more top-down or bottom-up? I can only make things nice after writing them out in horrific ways like described here
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2018-06-08T10:03:50Z schweers: I try to write more in a bottom-up fashion, but I’d be lying if I claimed that it always turns out right.  That’s okay though (I think).
2018-06-08T10:04:32Z schweers: bottom-up has the advantage that you can test your lower level stuff and actually run it, as opposed to coding top-down and having to mock everything out in order to test it.
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2018-06-08T10:05:10Z xificurC: this was bottom up, I just can't see what will I need before writing it all out first
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2018-06-08T10:05:43Z xificurC: so, not sure if I'm an idiot with regards to design or if this is the normal evolution
2018-06-08T10:05:43Z schweers: that’s okay.  Make sure to try and make it better when you know more about your problem
2018-06-08T10:05:55Z schweers: I suppose the latter
2018-06-08T10:06:18Z xificurC: I suppose you're either too kind or a liar
2018-06-08T10:06:25Z schweers: unless myself and almost everyone who writes about these things are idiots too.
2018-06-08T10:06:52Z schweers: no, I run into similar problems, so I’m very sympathetic to your kind of situation.
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2018-06-08T10:07:33Z xificurC: I like the fact that I don't spend days designing but it just sort of pops out from all the hacking
2018-06-08T10:07:51Z xificurC: I don't like the fact that it takes 2-4 complete rewrites to get something shiny
2018-06-08T10:08:36Z schweers: As we’re wandering off-topic anyway, I’d like to mention that the book “Test-Driven Development by Example” was a real revelation for me.  Also it made me feel like a moron, but that’s another story.
2018-06-08T10:09:18Z xificurC: one more question, thinking ahead now - when you have a class/struct and it is the only one using a function do you make it defun or defgeneric?
2018-06-08T10:10:39Z shka: xificurC: does not matter
2018-06-08T10:10:45Z schweers: I may be differing strongly from other peoples practices, but I mostly use structs and defuns.  I do this for performance reasons, as performance is quite relevant in my current work.  Other people may suggest you use classes and generic functions until you can prove they are causing performance issues.
2018-06-08T10:11:07Z shka: xificurC:  CL allows you to switch defun into defgeneric without any issue
2018-06-08T10:11:13Z xificurC: schweers: are the examples in the book in java?
2018-06-08T10:11:42Z schweers: partly java, partly python.  but try not to hold that against the author.  you have to take some of the writing with a grain of salt, for that reason.
2018-06-08T10:11:47Z shka: so initial decision is not critical
2018-06-08T10:11:55Z xificurC: thanks
2018-06-08T10:12:13Z schweers: He talks too much about classes, objects, and methods than I care for, but hey, you can overlook that pretty easily.
2018-06-08T10:12:14Z White_Flame: schweers: I use generic functions with structs fairly often.  You don't have to go to defclass to get their benefit
2018-06-08T10:12:30Z schweers: White_Flame: true.  I do that myself.
2018-06-08T10:12:51Z schweers: I just forgot to mention that.
2018-06-08T10:13:54Z shka: xificurC: defclass is easier to work with
2018-06-08T10:14:20Z shka: because of interactivity
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2018-06-08T10:16:24Z schweers: and multiple inheritance, if you care about that.
2018-06-08T10:16:43Z shka: yes, this also
2018-06-08T10:17:00Z xificurC: shka: interactivity?
2018-06-08T10:17:27Z schweers: I really don’t get why the majority of our industry seems to think that multiple inheritance is inherently (hehe) wrong.
2018-06-08T10:17:34Z shka: xificurC: redefining defstructs is well known to be land of undefined
2018-06-08T10:17:54Z schweers: works pretty well in sbcl, but I wouldn’t rely on it.
2018-06-08T10:18:01Z White_Flame: schweers: because their languages suck
2018-06-08T10:18:18Z shka: schweers: because C++ fucked programmers mind badly
2018-06-08T10:18:28Z schweers: but CLOS could be the foundation of other languages than lisp
2018-06-08T10:18:52Z schweers: shka: true.  I remember that I almost wept as I read how CLOS does MI.
2018-06-08T10:20:41Z shka: and because of huge impact C++ had, corpolanguages mimiced it
2018-06-08T10:20:52Z shka: along with it's flaws
2018-06-08T10:21:10Z schweers feels the sudden urge to drink heavily
2018-06-08T10:21:38Z shka: oh, relax
2018-06-08T10:21:53Z shka: there are worse things in world then this
2018-06-08T10:22:01Z schweers: I guess
2018-06-08T10:23:13Z White_Flame: yeah, like perl ;)
2018-06-08T10:23:38Z shka: White_Flame: it gets worse
2018-06-08T10:23:49Z schweers: not sure if I’d prefer perl or C++
2018-06-08T10:23:56Z shka: whole world is fucked up, not just IT
2018-06-08T10:24:35Z schweers: but IT/CS/whatever needn’t be as fucked up as it is.
2018-06-08T10:24:40Z shka: actually that's why i like to rant about computer programs
2018-06-08T10:24:52Z shka: it is nice distraction from gloom reality of our existence
2018-06-08T10:25:11Z schweers: seems like such a first world problem, when you think about it.
2018-06-08T10:25:30Z White_Flame: yeah, stick to your own sphere, can't worry about everythign else
2018-06-08T10:25:42Z schweers: people are starving, kids are being forced to fight in wars, but most languages don’t have a proper notion of MI.
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2018-06-08T10:28:44Z schweers: back to the previous topic: I wonder where one could best confront the majority of programmers with these ideas.  Talking in here will not convince anyone, it’s just preaching to the choir.  Taking over -- say -- a java IRC channel would probably be viewed as rude.
2018-06-08T10:29:00Z shka: schweers: useless
2018-06-08T10:29:26Z shka: imagination can't be forced into changed unless mind wants to change
2018-06-08T10:29:37Z White_Flame: the majority of programmers undertsand what is possible to be constrained to what is known
2018-06-08T10:29:50Z shka: and mind sits firmly in the material reality
2018-06-08T10:29:56Z jackdaniel: write a nice essay which makes the benefits obvious and post it on a few communication channels
2018-06-08T10:30:05Z jackdaniel: alternatively record a video, or stream it on twich
2018-06-08T10:30:13Z White_Flame: most programmers don't see their coding problems as problems, but rather the normal issues that programming deals with in the course of things
2018-06-08T10:30:17Z schweers: people have done that, it doesn’t seem to resonate (much)
2018-06-08T10:30:27Z shka: White_Flame: most programmers are not all that passionate
2018-06-08T10:30:29Z jackdaniel: some people do that already, it is not perceived as rude and sometimes it gets somewhat popular
2018-06-08T10:30:29Z shka: to begin with
2018-06-08T10:30:41Z shka: they just need money for kids and stuff
2018-06-08T10:31:03Z White_Flame: also, if you're not working on difficult problems, you don't need above-average solutions
2018-06-08T10:31:16Z jackdaniel: if you ask how to force people to agree with your ideas, well: hypnosis isn't an option, because it doesn't work that way – you may only suggest something
2018-06-08T10:31:17Z schweers: White_Flame: I disagree.
2018-06-08T10:31:25Z shka: White_Flame: i agree
2018-06-08T10:31:27Z White_Flame: "need" being the operative word
2018-06-08T10:31:35Z White_Flame: they'll help, but they're not required
2018-06-08T10:31:47Z schweers: I don’t work on something which naturally lends itself to lisp, but nevertheless I’m very grateful for being able to use lisp for the project.
2018-06-08T10:31:54Z White_Flame: I mean, Lisp won't help you much for Hello, World programming
2018-06-08T10:31:57Z schweers: I hardly write any macros, hardly use CLOS.
2018-06-08T10:32:16Z schweers: no, but the majority of (useful) software does not fall into that category.
2018-06-08T10:32:46Z schweers: well, no, but then: is it “required” to use something “better” than assembly or C?
2018-06-08T10:32:51Z shka: schweers: i would argue that python web developers who just maintain some crappy django web page do not care
2018-06-08T10:33:01Z White_Flame: schweers: it's a cost/benefit tradeoff
2018-06-08T10:33:04Z shka: and there is awfull lots of them
2018-06-08T10:33:21Z schweers: shka: maybe you’re right that most programmers are not that passionate.
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2018-06-08T10:34:49Z shka: yup
2018-06-08T10:35:34Z shka: besides, major flaw of CL are libs
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2018-06-08T10:35:56Z jackdaniel: given a passionate programmer who knows (say) python and does cool stuff with it, starting with: your language of choice is shit, CL is best programming language which has all it and more, and if you don't agree with me that MI is cool then you are below-average soldier programmer without passion
2018-06-08T10:36:01Z jackdaniel: won't buy you his attention either ;-)
2018-06-08T10:36:04Z shka: if you want to CL become more popular and have more opportunity to earn money with lisp, try to address this problem
2018-06-08T10:36:05Z thodg quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-06-08T10:36:09Z jackdaniel: or hers ;p
2018-06-08T10:36:12Z shrdlu68: "There they stand", he said to his heart "There they laugh: they do not understand me, I am not the mouth for these ears" ~Zarathustra
2018-06-08T10:36:16Z shrdlu68: ^every lisper.
2018-06-08T10:36:42Z schweers: jackdaniel: I guess I understand where you are going with this, but I’d like to go on the record to say that I did not mean that.  And I agree with you.
2018-06-08T10:37:23Z schweers: oh dear, are we quoting Nietzsche now?
2018-06-08T10:37:25Z shka: jackdaniel: bills won't pay themselfs, so i don't see why you are so offensive
2018-06-08T10:37:57Z jackdaniel: I mean that putting yourself in a superior position (e.g I'm going to convince Java programmers, that CL is *better*), isn't a good way to start a conversation
2018-06-08T10:38:08Z jackdaniel: shka: I don't understand
2018-06-08T10:38:09Z shka: in fact, learning CL requires unusual circumstances nowdays
2018-06-08T10:38:22Z shka: you will need to have extra time
2018-06-08T10:38:23Z schweers: shka: how so?
2018-06-08T10:38:38Z schweers: I needed extra time for most languages I have learned
2018-06-08T10:38:43Z shka: true
2018-06-08T10:38:44Z schweers: python, for example
2018-06-08T10:39:15Z shka: and most people can't spend it unless it is for a reason
2018-06-08T10:39:27Z schweers: I learned (a little bit of assembly), C, C++ and Java in school.  The rest I learned on my own time
2018-06-08T10:39:29Z shka: i have extra time because, well i don't have a so called life
2018-06-08T10:39:30Z jackdaniel: and the thing is that this urge to believe unconditionally that *your* choice is the optimal one (i.e CL is a superior language) is tempting, but most probably a fallacy of sticking to known things
2018-06-08T10:39:36Z shka: no girlfriend, not much friends
2018-06-08T10:39:50Z shka: but it is not a norm
2018-06-08T10:40:17Z jackdaniel: I write in CL because I *like* it, not because I think it is better than (say) Scheme, Forth, C# or Java
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2018-06-08T10:40:44Z shka: jackdaniel: i think that it is about lisp ideas, not about cl itself
2018-06-08T10:40:55Z shrdlu68: schweers: I don't know why this is so strongly reminiscent of that scene.
2018-06-08T10:41:14Z schweers: shka: I did for the longest time too, and thus viewed all lisps as being roughly equivalent.  I have come to like CL much much more than other lisps.
2018-06-08T10:42:01Z schweers: shrdlu68: I must admit that I did not read the book, although I have it at home and tried to.  But Nietzsche has a really weird way of writing.
2018-06-08T10:42:12Z jackdaniel said what he wanted to say, getting back to cltl2 env access implementation for ECL
2018-06-08T10:42:34Z shka: anyway, there is no point in force feeding people with lisp
2018-06-08T10:42:49Z schweers: nah, that’s not what I wanted either
2018-06-08T10:42:53Z shka: majority do not need it, some will not like it
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2018-06-08T10:43:20Z shka: and as jackdaniel said, it can get offensive rather quickly
2018-06-08T10:44:26Z shrdlu68: "Too long have I lived in the mountains, and too much have I listened to the streams and trees: now I talk to them as to goat-herds"
2018-06-08T10:44:41Z jackdaniel notes (even if he already closed this window), that his point was the internal feeling of superiority of the speaker what is deterring, not language advocacy itself
2018-06-08T10:45:02Z White_Flame: "The time had come, so Marvin left."
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2018-06-08T10:46:45Z shka: jackdaniel: well, your internal feelings may or may give some impression, you may be just misinterpreted as well, especially if you are not perfectly socially calibrated
2018-06-08T10:46:54Z shka: murky waters
2018-06-08T10:47:25Z shka: anyway, i simply don't bother with that anymore
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2018-06-08T10:47:58Z fm4d_: Hi, could someone give me an advice how to create keyword symbols? For example I would like to convert '((test . 1) (test2 . 2)) into (:test 1 :test2 2). I've explored the symbol-making functions but none of them seems to be able to do this. Thanks :)
2018-06-08T10:48:14Z shka: fm4d_: alexandria has make-keyword function
2018-06-08T10:48:29Z shka: you probabbly should use it
2018-06-08T10:48:58Z _death: fm4d: a keyword symbol is simply a symbol in the package named "KEYWORD".. intern takes a package designator
2018-06-08T10:49:03Z schweers: (intern (symbol-name 'sym) (find-package "KEYWORD")) should do the trick
2018-06-08T10:49:14Z shka: well, or that
2018-06-08T10:49:45Z shka: but make-keyword is nicer to read and write
2018-06-08T10:51:32Z schweers: and I guess most people have alexandria at their disposal anyway
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2018-06-08T10:53:13Z fm4d_: schweers thanks, your solution works well
2018-06-08T10:53:48Z fm4d_: shka (alexandria:make-keyword "a") returns :|a| instead of :a
2018-06-08T10:54:07Z fm4d_: could you explain the bars for me please?
2018-06-08T10:54:34Z shka: fm4d_: sure
2018-06-08T10:54:39Z shka: fm4d_: try "A"
2018-06-08T10:54:59Z fm4d_: :D
2018-06-08T10:55:01Z fm4d_: thats confusing
2018-06-08T10:55:09Z schweers: Common Lisp normally upcases symbols
2018-06-08T10:55:10Z shka: because you skipped reader, name was not uppcased
2018-06-08T10:55:29Z schweers: so if you enter 'sym, the reader converts it to a symbol which has the name "SYM"
2018-06-08T10:55:33Z shka: basicly, lisp is case sensitive language
2018-06-08T10:55:44Z shka: but it converts symbols to upcase by default
2018-06-08T10:55:52Z schweers: if you really want a symbol which has a lowercase name, you can say '|sym| or (lengthy) '\s\y\m
2018-06-08T10:56:10Z fm4d_: Ah, I see
2018-06-08T10:56:15Z fm4d_: thanks
2018-06-08T10:56:36Z shka: no problem
2018-06-08T10:56:47Z schweers: if you use (SYMBOL-NAME), you get the "correct" casing back
2018-06-08T10:56:50Z shka: fm4d_: i think that (make-keyword 'a) will works as well
2018-06-08T10:57:06Z shka: IIRC
2018-06-08T10:57:06Z schweers: it does
2018-06-08T10:57:09Z schweers: just tried it :D
2018-06-08T10:57:18Z shka: ok, cool
2018-06-08T10:57:25Z fm4d_: hm
2018-06-08T10:57:27Z fm4d_: it does not for me
2018-06-08T10:57:31Z fm4d_: CL-USER> (alexandria:make-keyword "b")
2018-06-08T10:57:31Z fm4d_: :|b|
2018-06-08T10:57:31Z fm4d_: :EXTERNAL
2018-06-08T10:57:42Z schweers: try this: (make-keyword 'b)
2018-06-08T10:57:56Z schweers: or (make-keyword (symbol-name 'b))
2018-06-08T10:58:00Z schweers: both do the same
2018-06-08T10:58:12Z fm4d_: ah, i didnt realize it was a symbol and not a string
2018-06-08T10:58:16Z shka: right
2018-06-08T10:58:16Z fm4d_: makes sense now :]
2018-06-08T10:58:23Z schweers: yeah \o/
2018-06-08T10:58:33Z shka: ok, nice
2018-06-08T10:59:31Z fm4d_: btw is it in accordance with clisp style to generate keyword symbols dynamically like that?
2018-06-08T10:59:43Z fm4d_: and using apply quite frequently?
2018-06-08T10:59:53Z shka: clisp = common lisp?
2018-06-08T10:59:55Z schweers: I guess it depends on what you’re doing
2018-06-08T11:00:08Z fm4d_: yes, common lisp
2018-06-08T11:00:09Z schweers: fm4d_: clisp is a specific implementation
2018-06-08T11:00:20Z schweers: https://clisp.sourceforge.io/
2018-06-08T11:00:28Z shka: fm4d_: do what works for you
2018-06-08T11:00:49Z fm4d_: so what do you use as a shortcut for 'common lisp'?
2018-06-08T11:00:52Z White_Flame: just remember that generating symbols on the fly is technically a memory leak
2018-06-08T11:01:06Z shka: fm4d_: CL
2018-06-08T11:01:07Z schweers: unless you unintern them again
2018-06-08T11:01:15Z White_Flame: if a symbol is in a package, it won't get automatically collected
2018-06-08T11:01:19Z schweers: but yes, White_Flame is right
2018-06-08T11:01:38Z fm4d_: shka: ok
2018-06-08T11:02:08Z fm4d_: and what about keywords then? they are part of KEYWORDS package
2018-06-08T11:02:13Z shka: fm4d_: if you say lisp, people here will assume common lisp here
2018-06-08T11:02:24Z fm4d_: => they dont get collected either, right?
2018-06-08T11:02:30Z White_Flame: correct
2018-06-08T11:02:46Z fm4d_: ok, thanks
2018-06-08T11:02:59Z shka: well, they can be collected, but only after uninterning
2018-06-08T11:03:12Z shka: which you usually don't do
2018-06-08T11:03:13Z schweers: TIL that "::sym" reads as :sym
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2018-06-08T11:03:51Z jdz: All symbols in keyword package are automatically exported.
2018-06-08T11:03:59Z loke: schweers: makes sense
2018-06-08T11:04:11Z schweers: it does, I just never thought about it that way.
2018-06-08T11:04:19Z loke: the blang package name is equivalent to KEYWORD, so ::foo is equivalent to keyword::foo
2018-06-08T11:04:50Z loke: schweers: Also makes sense, since I can't think of any any actual use case for writing a keyword with doube :
2018-06-08T11:05:26Z schweers: exactly
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2018-06-08T12:38:48Z xificurC: I'm running slime and compiling definitions with slime-compile-defun. Now I get a condition of "The value NIL is not of type STRING" but the top of the backtrace shows my function which doesn't even take strings. I guess something it passed nil to something else. Why can't I see the call beneath it? :(
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2018-06-08T12:44:20Z beach: First `n', then `v'.
2018-06-08T12:44:41Z beach: Or first `n', then SPACE.
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2018-06-08T12:53:12Z ssake:     "gulp-browserify": "^0.5.1",
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2018-06-08T12:58:46Z beach: xificurC: Oh, it could be that your implementation is doing tail merging, so that the call below it disappears.
2018-06-08T12:58:59Z beach: xificurC: Are you using SBCL?
2018-06-08T12:59:06Z xificurC: beach: yes
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2018-06-08T12:59:13Z beach: xificurC: Did you set your OPTIMIZE qualities in your .sbclrc?
2018-06-08T12:59:19Z xificurC: beach: no
2018-06-08T12:59:28Z beach: I think you should.
2018-06-08T12:59:52Z xificurC: beach: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (safety 3) (debug 3))) ?
2018-06-08T13:00:04Z beach: Yeah.
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2018-06-08T13:00:34Z beach: As I recall, by default, SBCL does tail merging, but not with a high value of DEBUG.
2018-06-08T13:00:36Z schweers: beach: how do you set optimization qualities in general?  do you only set them in .sbclrc and never change them?
2018-06-08T13:00:41Z beach: I might have forgotten the details.
2018-06-08T13:00:50Z beach: schweers: Me?
2018-06-08T13:00:56Z schweers: yes
2018-06-08T13:01:05Z beach: schweers: Yes, I very rarely change them.
2018-06-08T13:01:28Z beach: Only when I need to in order to benchmark some algorithm I implemented.
2018-06-08T13:01:40Z beach: ... so that I can then put it in an ELS paper. :)
2018-06-08T13:01:46Z schweers: I was thinking I’d like to have rather aggressive optimizations for production, but not for debugging and/or testing.  And I’m not sure how to properly do that
2018-06-08T13:02:06Z schweers: But normally you don’t really care about optimizations?
2018-06-08T13:02:26Z beach: Correct.  At least not at that level.  I design good data structures and algorithms instead.
2018-06-08T13:02:45Z schweers: well, one can do both and reap even greater benefits
2018-06-08T13:03:02Z beach: Sure, but it is rarely worth the time.
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2018-06-08T13:03:28Z random9899: schweers: there was one good thing in LoL for that
2018-06-08T13:03:31Z schweers: by optimizations I mostly meant setting the compiler to do some more work
2018-06-08T13:03:39Z schweers: random9899: really?
2018-06-08T13:03:53Z random9899: yes
2018-06-08T13:03:53Z beach: schweers: I see, yes.  Like I said, I rarely find it necessary.
2018-06-08T13:03:54Z random9899: really
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2018-06-08T13:04:26Z schweers: random9899: do you recall in which chapter?  I don’t have the dead tree version on me right now
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2018-06-08T13:07:14Z schweers: hm, I guess in 7.7 Writing and Benchmarking Compilers.  Not freely available.  I hope I’ll remember to look at that tonight when I get home.
2018-06-08T13:07:27Z schweers: I think I should just take the book to the office.
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2018-06-08T13:18:00Z random9899: the online pdf version does not contain it afaik
2018-06-08T13:18:14Z random9899: i got that one too, but was surprised to see it cutoff like that
2018-06-08T13:18:40Z schweers: still: thanks for the tip, I’ll look into the dead trees at home
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2018-06-08T13:24:55Z random9899: chapter 7.2
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2018-06-08T13:25:35Z random9899: dispatch-macro-character '#f and the macros fast-progn and safe-progn
2018-06-08T13:26:06Z xificurC: beach: forgot to write back, thanks that indeed shows more in the stacktrace :)
2018-06-08T13:27:42Z random9899: tho you also have to consider other stuff like some declarations getting only considered for compiled code etc....
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2018-06-08T13:28:49Z random9899: and despite their name with progn, they use a (locally, cause progn does not accept declarations
2018-06-08T13:29:21Z beach: xificurC: Oh, good.
2018-06-08T13:29:36Z random9899: so you kinda have to write some compiler-macro .....
2018-06-08T13:30:52Z schweers: random9899: cool, thanks!
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2018-06-08T13:32:28Z random9899: ya with them schweers you can enable fast compilation at some point and go back to safe compilation at another point in your code....
2018-06-08T13:32:50Z random9899: really handy if you can make it right
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2018-06-08T13:34:27Z random9899: but since it's a macro and macros are not guaranteed to be expanded before compilation, you'll really have to couple normal macro stuff (for runtime) with compiler-macro versions of those (for compile time)
2018-06-08T13:34:38Z schweers: uhh, I just realized something.  If I say (declaim (optimize (debug 3))), does the effect it has stop at the end of the file I’m currently compiling/loading/executing?
2018-06-08T13:34:58Z random9899: no schweers
2018-06-08T13:35:02Z random9899: until you change it
2018-06-08T13:35:08Z schweers: It seems to me, the answer must be no, as there would otherwise be no point in putting such a form into .sbclrc
2018-06-08T13:35:21Z random9899: declarations can shadow yes
2018-06-08T13:35:26Z random9899: each other
2018-06-08T13:35:31Z random9899: and they last until you change them
2018-06-08T13:37:10Z random9899: schweers afaik some stuff does not get effect at runtime, probably the compiler decides to ignore some settings
2018-06-08T13:37:34Z random9899: one thing more you can do is make it read-time
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2018-06-08T13:38:01Z random9899: i.e. #.(declaim (optimize (debug 3)))
2018-06-08T13:38:10Z schweers: so (declaim (optimize (safety 3))) (locally (optimize (safety 0)) (defun really-well-tested ...)) (defun not-so-well-tested ...) does pretty much what I expect: set safety to 0 for WELL-TESTED, but back to 3 for the rest (i.e. NOT-SO-WELL-TESTED in this contrived example)
2018-06-08T13:39:02Z schweers: what is the benefit to running it at read time?  As far as I remember DECLAIM has its effect at compile time, right?
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2018-06-08T13:40:05Z random9899: naaaa, safety 3 is ok, but as long as you don't specify the other optimizations which are diagonally opposite to it you may not get what you expect
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2018-06-08T13:40:26Z schweers: sure, just as an example
2018-06-08T13:40:35Z schweers: I didn’t want to clutter it more than I have to
2018-06-08T13:41:00Z schweers: maybe I should have put it on pastebin instead of inlining it here in IRC
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2018-06-08T13:44:04Z random9899: right
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2018-06-08T13:58:37Z random9899: declaim has it's effect at compile-time only when the file-compiler (compile-file) is being used on a file containint that (declaim.....) form
2018-06-08T13:58:58Z random9899: If a use of this macro appears as a top level form in a file being processed by the file compiler, the proclamations are also made at compile-time. As with other defining macros, it is unspecified whether or not the compile-time side-effects of a declaim persist after the file has been compiled
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2018-06-08T14:02:41Z random9899:  declare expressions must appear as actual subexpressions of the form to which they refer -> i.e. not (declare (optimize bla bla bla))        but (declare (optimize (bla bla bla)))
2018-06-08T14:03:04Z random9899: Macro forms cannot expand into declarations
2018-06-08T14:03:49Z random9899: Figure 3-23. Standardized Forms In Which Declarations Can Occur
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2018-06-08T14:10:26Z random9899: and have a look at proclaim too ofc
2018-06-08T14:12:01Z random9899:  Although the execution of a proclaim form has effects that might affect compilation, the compiler does not make any attempt to recognize and specially process proclaim forms. A proclamation such as the following, even if a top level form, does not have any effect until it is executed: (proclaim '(special *x*))
2018-06-08T14:12:25Z random9899: If compile time side effects are desired, eval-when may be useful.
2018-06-08T14:12:53Z random9899: (eval-when (:execute :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(special *x*))) In most such cases, however, it is preferrable to use declaim for this purpose.
2018-06-08T14:14:43Z random9899: so declaim is almost like the above eval-when proclaim, only that you have to bear in mind that compile-time effects are still not guaranteed untile the file-compiler compiles some stuff....
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2018-06-08T14:14:59Z random9899: and last but not least  Since proclaim forms are ordinary function forms, macro forms can expand into them.
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2018-06-08T14:16:41Z lukego: How does one troubleshoot ccl exiting with the message "double free or corruption (out)"? My lead is that it's happening when I create a bunch of threads and sockets.
2018-06-08T14:17:50Z shka_: lukego: cffi?
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2018-06-08T14:18:30Z random9899: SBCL is essentially a compiler-only implementation of Common Lisp. That is, for all but a few special cases, eval creates a lambda expression, calls compile on the lambda expression to create a compiled function, and then calls funcall on the resulting function object. A more traditional interpreter is also available on default builds; it is usually only called internally. This is explicitly allowed by the ANSI
2018-06-08T14:18:30Z random9899: standard, but leads to some oddities; e.g. at default settings, functionp and compiled-function-p are equivalent, and they collapse into the same function when SBCL is built without the interpreter
2018-06-08T14:18:33Z lukego: yes, via usockets
2018-06-08T14:18:49Z shka_: lukego: only that?
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2018-06-08T14:19:02Z shka_: because it sounds like either bug in ccl or in some c lib
2018-06-08T14:19:16Z random9899: so it talks about runtime compilation not load-time compilation as would happen with compile-file
2018-06-08T14:19:41Z shka_: lukego: anyway, launch gdb or some other debugger and attach to CCL process
2018-06-08T14:19:56Z shka_: it is nothing pretty, i must warn you…
2018-06-08T14:20:38Z lukego: Yeah. I suppose that if this is heap corruption then gdb will probably wake up long after the real problem. But I might be lucky. Otherwise I can try to minimize the test case.
2018-06-08T14:20:47Z lukego: Thanks shka_
2018-06-08T14:21:48Z p_l: lukego: fwiw, "double free" sounds like something errored in native code
2018-06-08T14:22:14Z shka_: p_l: he already knows that bro
2018-06-08T14:22:26Z p_l: Ahh, missed it
2018-06-08T14:24:19Z lukego: How many threads is "a lot" for ccl btw? is there some number at which there be dragons?
2018-06-08T14:24:31Z shka_: lukego: those are native threads
2018-06-08T14:24:35Z shka_: nothing fancy
2018-06-08T14:25:08Z shka_: as for error, i bet that this is some kind of stray null :-)
2018-06-08T14:25:19Z random9899: ecl is nice for creating .o objects for small lisp code
2018-06-08T14:25:37Z random9899: but i've never used it
2018-06-08T14:27:31Z random9899: and since it's a repl, read first, eval next, print last
2018-06-08T14:27:33Z lukego: shka_: So is 100 a lot? 1000?
2018-06-08T14:27:45Z shka_: lukego: so it depends on a system
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2018-06-08T14:28:07Z shka_: starting 100 threads on windows is for instance not a bright idea
2018-06-08T14:28:19Z random9899: threads sharing address space ?
2018-06-08T14:28:37Z p_l: shka_: huh, why windows would object to many threads?
2018-06-08T14:28:41Z lukego: shka_: I see things like polling conditions at 1kHz and figure that's putting some pressure on the kernel
2018-06-08T14:28:59Z p_l: 1kHz polling doesn't sound good unless it's realtime code
2018-06-08T14:29:11Z shka_: p_l: i have no idea, i just know that i didn't ran well back when i was still programming on windows
2018-06-08T14:29:19Z shka_: windows 7 days
2018-06-08T14:29:28Z p_l: btw, unrelated question - how many people here do some consulting work with lisp?
2018-06-08T14:29:46Z p_l: shka_: I'd suspect something related to the code rather than OS...
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2018-06-08T14:29:53Z fe[nl]ix: lukego: on Linux/x86_64 I believe the default thread stack size is 8Mb
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2018-06-08T14:32:34Z shka_: p_l: thread scheduling can make a difference
2018-06-08T14:32:40Z shka_: but i did not investigate
2018-06-08T14:32:59Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: Hm. I have 64GB ram on this machine and I don't think I'm bumping that limit, but good to keep in mind.
2018-06-08T14:33:32Z lukego: ccl isn't starting in gdb for me. Have to sort out some dependency. But meanwhile maybe I can strace/ltrace a little to check for allocation failures or the like.
2018-06-08T14:33:33Z random9899:     The three big moments in a Lisp expression's life are read-time, compile-time, and runtime. Functions are in control at runtime. Macros give us a chance to perform transformations on programs at compile-time. ...read-macros... do their work at read-time.
2018-06-08T14:33:34Z random9899:     Macros and read-macros see your program at different stages. Macros get hold of the program when it has already been parsed into Lisp objects by the reader, and read-macros operate on a program while it is still text. However, by invoking read on this text, a read-macro can, if it chooses, get parsed Lisp objects as well. Thus read-macros are at least as powerful as ordinary macros.
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2018-06-08T14:35:19Z shka_: p_l: thread creation also takes more time on windows
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2018-06-08T14:35:46Z shka_: in fact, linux threads are now dirty cheap
2018-06-08T14:35:55Z p_l: shka_: process/thread manipulation generally takes more time on NT, which is why threads & threadpools were advocated since beginning
2018-06-08T14:36:01Z shka_: on windows, was not the case few years back
2018-06-08T14:36:13Z random9899: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1xozx1/readtime_conditionalsevaluation_of_several/
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2018-06-08T14:36:15Z p_l: while Unix systems in general had very cheap fork(), with thread creation even cheaper
2018-06-08T14:36:30Z shka_: yeah
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2018-06-08T14:36:46Z shka_: anyway, large number of (working) threads is not a good idea in general
2018-06-08T14:36:55Z random9899: right
2018-06-08T14:37:06Z shka_: and plane stupid on windows for a reasons i don't care about anymore
2018-06-08T14:37:10Z shka_: *plain
2018-06-08T14:37:22Z p_l hides old experiments of several thousands threads in application per node
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2018-06-08T14:39:58Z shka_: having said all of that, my experience is dated
2018-06-08T14:40:07Z shka_: maybe it got better
2018-06-08T14:40:46Z p_l: it could be also related to what the threads did, possibly hidden by runtime
2018-06-08T14:40:57Z random9899: welp, there was an ieee paper about the mathematical fatality of threading/concurrent
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2018-06-08T14:41:26Z kami: Hello
2018-06-08T14:41:30Z shka_: p_l: well, you can check, i don't even have windows anymore
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2018-06-08T14:41:39Z p_l: if one digs deep enough, windows first shows a message passing system between each process and kernel, and if you dig deeper you find undocumented support for ASTs
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2018-06-08T14:42:16Z random9899: afaik there's not even 1 single time reference like 1 ns on what you can depend on with the current hw we have, it's all voltage dependent.... not ?
2018-06-08T14:42:39Z random9899: so what do you go for timing it well as threading programmers when you have to rely on such things ?
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2018-06-08T14:43:05Z jmercouris: beach: did you get my email?
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2018-06-08T14:43:22Z lukego: random9899: I usually use the RDTSC/RDTSCP instructions. Those are based on a reference clock that doesn't vary. at least on recent CPUs that support the relevant feature flag
2018-06-08T14:43:34Z random9899: aaah
2018-06-08T14:43:40Z random9899: ok thank you for that info
2018-06-08T14:43:46Z beach: jmercouris: I did.  Still thinking about it.
2018-06-08T14:44:25Z jmercouris: beach: ok
2018-06-08T14:45:35Z beach: jmercouris: I am flattered of course.  But I am thinking I would like for SICL to be slightly more advanced than it currently is.
2018-06-08T14:46:41Z random9899: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Stamp_Counter
2018-06-08T14:46:51Z jmercouris: beach: Well, the topic could be maybe just about your CL research in general
2018-06-08T14:47:05Z beach: jmercouris: I'll think about it.
2018-06-08T14:47:11Z beach: Thanks for the offer.
2018-06-08T14:47:17Z jmercouris: ok, no problem
2018-06-08T14:48:49Z fe[nl]ix: lukego: RTDSC is highly unreliable
2018-06-08T14:49:00Z fe[nl]ix: *RDTSC
2018-06-08T14:49:27Z random9899: the serializing version, guarding against out-of-order execution
2018-06-08T14:50:01Z random9899: On Windows platforms, Microsoft strongly discourages using the TSC for high-resolution timing for exactly these reasons, providing instead the Windows APIs QueryPerformanceCounter and QueryPerformanceFrequency.[2] On POSIX systems, a program can get similar function by reading the value of CLOCK_MONOTONIC clock using the clock_gettime function.[3]
2018-06-08T14:50:53Z random9899:  Since the family 10h (Barcelona/Phenom), AMD chips feature a constant TSC, which can be driven either by the HyperTransport speed or the highest P state. A CPUID bit (Fn8000_0007:EDX_8) advertises this.
2018-06-08T14:50:57Z random9899: oh man
2018-06-08T14:51:22Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: for what purpose? I use it all the time
2018-06-08T14:52:17Z lukego: have to be careful though e.g. be prepared for different cores to have different epocs. but it's a low level feature :) and libc has slightly higher level things on top
2018-06-08T14:52:29Z fe[nl]ix: exactly
2018-06-08T14:52:45Z fe[nl]ix: the counter is per-core and also varies with core freq
2018-06-08T14:53:03Z fe[nl]ix: unless your CPU supports "Invariant TSC"
2018-06-08T14:53:22Z fe[nl]ix: in which case RDTSC comes from a dedicated clock
2018-06-08T14:53:25Z random9899: There is no promise that the timestamp counters of multiple CPUs on a single motherboard will be synchronized. Therefore, a program can get reliable results only by limiting itself to run on one specific CPU. Even then, the CPU speed may change because of power-saving measures taken by the OS or BIOS, or the system may be hibernated and later resumed, resetting the TSC. In those latter cases, to stay relevant,
2018-06-08T14:53:25Z random9899: the program must re-calibrate the counter periodically.
2018-06-08T14:53:50Z random9899: so i suppose that also holds for inter-core ?
2018-06-08T14:54:05Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: True. Though I think all CPUs made in the last N years have the invariant TSC.
2018-06-08T14:54:24Z random9899: ya i got the constant_tsc flag too
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2018-06-08T14:55:06Z fe[nl]ix: lukego: if you're using Xeon-class CPUs I think so
2018-06-08T14:55:13Z fe[nl]ix: not so sure about laptops
2018-06-08T14:55:17Z lukego: otherwise I believe glibc can give you a more consistent clock with nanosecond precision that is (safely) sourced from TSC under the hood.
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2018-06-08T14:57:41Z lukego: fe[nl]ix: btw do you know how is iolib support on LispWorks and on Mac? (known to not work? or known that somebody does that? etc)
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2018-06-08T15:42:18Z beach: Help me think this through, please:  I would like to transform the dpANS TeX files to a bunch of files that I can compile with a single LaTeX command, say pdflatex.
2018-06-08T15:42:28Z beach: There are several obstacles.  For one thing, the dpANS files do not use LaTeX, and a number of TeX macros basically emulate LaTeX macros in incompatible ways.  For another, each chapter is meant to be compiled with TeX separately, so there are files that are included in each chapter file.  Furthermore, there is a mixture of "semantic" macros and typesetting macros, and I would like to get rid of the typesetting macros without
2018-06-08T15:42:28Z beach: sacrificing the semantics macros.  I would also like to replace the specific TeX macros that have counterparts in LaTeX.
2018-06-08T15:42:40Z beach: The purpose of the exercise is to obtain a maintainable LaTeX document with indexes, table of contents, cross references etc.  This LaTeX document would be the basis for WSCL.
2018-06-08T15:42:41Z beach: I would then start modifying the text, probably putting original paragraphs in appendices and referring to them from the main text.  But that's in the future.  So how do I go about this in a way that does not introduce too many errors?  I don't mind manual editing.  It is not urgent.
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2018-06-08T15:47:30Z p_l: fe[nl]ix: "consumer" cpus were first to get invariant TSC because of games
2018-06-08T15:47:48Z fe[nl]ix: good to know :D
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2018-06-08T17:39:44Z random9899: The whole language always available. There is no real distinction between read-time, compile-time, and runtime. You can compile or run code while reading, read or run code while compiling, and read or compile code at runtime.
2018-06-08T17:39:44Z random9899: Running code at read-time lets users reprogram Lisp's syntax; running code at compile-time is the basis of macros; compiling at runtime is the basis of Lisp's use as an extension language in programs like Emacs; and reading at runtime enables programs to communicate using s-expressions, an idea recently reinvented as XML.
2018-06-08T17:40:10Z random9899: http://www.paulgraham.com/diff.html
2018-06-08T17:40:22Z Bike: you don't need to keep quoting paragraph blurbs
2018-06-08T17:40:47Z Bike: if you have a question you want answered or topic you would like to discuss, please use your own words
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2018-06-08T17:56:13Z phoe: random9899: yes, and?
2018-06-08T17:56:21Z phoe: I know this article
2018-06-08T17:57:50Z random9899: i knew that site but not that article, must have missed it somehow
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2018-06-08T18:01:16Z phoe: random9899: Graham has quite a lot of essays, they're a rather good reading as long as you take him with a pinch of salt
2018-06-08T18:03:15Z random9899: i put the quotes, well wrt to the confusion arising in people when talking about read-time, run-time and compile-time....like with schweers about his question about what a #.(declaim...) is different from a normal (declaim ..) etc....
2018-06-08T18:06:14Z jackdaniel: question: given cltl2 interface is implemented, how am I supposed that variable is unknown for my own declarations? example: (let ((x 3)) (declare (ignore y)) …) will issue a simple-warning
2018-06-08T18:06:37Z jackdaniel: I want to do the same in a function in cltl2:define-declaration, the thing is that lexical variables are note yet in the environment
2018-06-08T18:06:56Z phoe: jackdaniel: cltl2:variable-information
2018-06-08T18:07:00Z phoe: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node102.html
2018-06-08T18:07:12Z phoe: it'll return NIL if "There is no apparent definition or binding for variable."
2018-06-08T18:07:23Z jackdaniel: so variable-information will fail to find y even if it is there (let ((y bam)) (declare (phoe y)) …)
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2018-06-08T18:07:43Z phoe: oooh. hmm.
2018-06-08T18:07:45Z jackdaniel: phoe: lexical variables are not in the environment yet at the time of invoking declaration lambda function
2018-06-08T18:08:01Z phoe: you need to somehow pass that information from LET to it
2018-06-08T18:08:02Z jackdaniel: because result of declaration is included in result of variable-information too
2018-06-08T18:08:50Z phoe: like, hm - the list of new bindings from LET needs to be passed to the declaration function
2018-06-08T18:08:52Z jackdaniel: I know how to do it *using* compiler internals, because I'm already doing that, but not sure how to achive it simply using cltl2
2018-06-08T18:09:12Z phoe: hm, I see.
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2018-06-08T18:13:22Z phoe: This seems to be rather silly. Inside (let ((x 3)) ...), I would expect X to be lexically bound. Even inside a (declare ...) that might happen in there.
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2018-06-08T18:14:02Z jackdaniel: declarations are processed at compilation time, there is nothing to be bound yet. only some information in lexenv may be present
2018-06-08T18:14:17Z phoe: Uh, yes - that is what I meant.
2018-06-08T18:14:27Z phoe: I would expect X to name a variable in the lexical environment.
2018-06-08T18:14:51Z jackdaniel: so you expect let to behave similar to labels, not to flet
2018-06-08T18:15:06Z phoe: What do you mean?
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2018-06-08T18:15:24Z jackdaniel: when you have flet, first you process definitions *then* you extend the environment
2018-06-08T18:15:40Z jackdaniel: when you have lable,s first you extend the environment and then you process definitions
2018-06-08T18:15:46Z phoe: I see
2018-06-08T18:15:50Z jackdaniel: thanks to that you are able to call functions among themself
2018-06-08T18:16:00Z phoe: I see, so that is how it is implemented.
2018-06-08T18:16:20Z phoe: Inside LET, a variable should not be able to refer to itself though.
2018-06-08T18:16:24Z jackdaniel: (note that this is different behavior than let*)
2018-06-08T18:16:31Z phoe: So we don't want to directly copy a LABELS-like behavior.
2018-06-08T18:16:43Z Bike: declare isn't like a separate form or anything. it makes sense to think of (let ((y bam)) (declare (phoe y)) ...) as being like (let+ ((y bam phoe)) ...). there is probably no time at which the variable is bound but not typed as far as the environment is concerned.
2018-06-08T18:17:07Z phoe: It needs to be understood and processed by LET, right?
2018-06-08T18:17:11Z Bike: in other words i don't understand what either of you are talking about. "declaration lambda function"?
2018-06-08T18:17:24Z phoe: Bike: cltl2 and define-declaration
2018-06-08T18:17:41Z phoe: Bike: if Y is an unknown variable, how do we detect that using cltl2 functionality?
2018-06-08T18:19:12Z Bike: cltl2 doesn't seem to specify what the environment is for or when the function is called.
2018-06-08T18:20:30Z Bike: I suppose you could say that the environment is first augmented with a lexical y, then that's passed to the define-declaration function, and then that's used to produce the actual environment used for processing the body.
2018-06-08T18:20:57Z jackdaniel: that's not a case in SBCL
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2018-06-08T18:21:04Z Bike: in the case of (phoe y) as a free declaration, the environment passed to the declaration function would have y unbound, i.e. variable-information returns NIL.
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2018-06-08T18:21:19Z jackdaniel: I'm asking, because I'm trying to figure what's the right thing to do (implementing cltl2 for ECL – first writing a test suite)
2018-06-08T18:21:27Z Bike: sb-cltl2 doesn't even work fully
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2018-06-08T18:21:56Z jackdaniel: do you remember which parts are not implemented?
2018-06-08T18:22:24Z Bike: it's not so much a lack of implementation as it is bugginess. they're probably still in the tracker
2018-06-08T18:22:47Z Bike: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl?field.searchtext=cltl2&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch=&field.has_no_package=
2018-06-08T18:22:48Z jackdaniel: OK, thanks for a warning
2018-06-08T18:22:59Z Bike: i just knew that link would be bullshit long, but i posted it anyway, like an idiot
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2018-06-08T18:24:10Z Bike: the one i hit was 769592, which is that augment-environment signals stupid errors sometimes because it goes through internal compiler machinery that immediately signals when it hits inconsistencies, because they matter for compilation but not cltl2
2018-06-08T18:24:23Z Bike: anyway i wouldn't worry about define-declaration
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2018-06-08T18:24:53Z Bike: i wrote a cltl2 wrapper library but didn't bother with it. and it has so many users! at least zero
2018-06-08T18:25:15Z Bike: if you do want to worry about it, i think what i described would be a reasonable way to do it
2018-06-08T18:25:37Z phoe: Bike: I would be worried if it had negative user count; knowing how much you deal with C++ it would likely mean an integer overflow
2018-06-08T18:26:24Z mfiano: Heh, I thought all lisp software had 0 users, excluding the developer.
2018-06-08T18:26:30Z jackdaniel: Bike: yes, I think I'll implement it the way you mention
2018-06-08T18:26:42Z Bike: ah, but i don't even use it, which gives it -1 users excluding me
2018-06-08T18:26:47Z mfiano: Ha
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2018-06-08T19:02:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: package-inferred-system is kinda nice
2018-06-08T19:03:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I dislike how it hides your system dependencies in the .asd
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2018-06-08T19:12:57Z phoe: I actually don't use p-i-s
2018-06-08T19:13:13Z phoe: it does not really suit my programming style
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2018-06-08T19:15:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm not sure I'd actually use it
2018-06-08T19:16:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I appreciate what it does, I've always been slightly annoyed about the duplication between the ASDF system's dependency lists and the defpackage forms
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2018-06-08T21:11:26Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: It simplifies your definitions of external dependencies, but it doesn't simplify your definitions of internal dependencies that much because unless your project is flat, you are going to have to create a /foo.lisp for every /foo/ so you can just import my-project/foo instead of my-project/foo/bar
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2018-06-08T21:15:04Z aeth: On the other hand, you wouldn't get that feature without it, anyway.
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2018-06-09T02:42:32Z asarch_: One stupid question: what is the name of the exceptions in Lisp?
2018-06-09T02:42:48Z Bike: conditions
2018-06-09T02:43:13Z asarch_: Thank you!
2018-06-09T02:43:22Z asarch_: Thank you very much Bike :-)
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2018-06-09T05:25:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wish ASDF didn't insist on /s for separating system name components
2018-06-09T05:25:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: like my-system/subsystem, etc...
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2018-06-09T06:26:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-09T06:26:58Z beach: jackdaniel: I am not sure that the CLtL2 environment interface is the way to go now that we have CLOS.
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2018-06-09T06:29:07Z beach: jackdaniel: I am also not sure what the right protocol would be.
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2018-06-09T06:44:09Z makomo: morning!
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2018-06-09T07:01:43Z jackdaniel: beach: how CLOS makes it less useful?
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2018-06-09T07:13:26Z beach: jackdaniel: What I am saying is that the interface described in CLtL2 is a bit twisted because it does not take advantage of generic functions.  I think we can do better than that now.
2018-06-09T07:14:34Z jackdaniel: ah. well, I find it pretty clear as an interface and don't see any need for CLOS
2018-06-09T07:14:47Z beach: OK.  That's fine then.
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2018-06-09T08:13:31Z MichaelRaskin: jackdaniel: well, here CLOS could be useful is if you guarantee some fixed type specifier to correspond to environment
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2018-06-09T10:21:55Z random9899: an update for the package lift, not being able to locate it's own config http://dpaste.com/3JDZ8QD
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2018-06-09T10:23:42Z random9899: rosetta-test fails because of it for example....
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2018-06-09T11:32:06Z phoe: today is the first day when I used (declare (special *variable*))
2018-06-09T11:33:48Z beach: Congratulations!
2018-06-09T11:34:35Z phoe: Like, inside a LET
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2018-06-09T11:45:22Z pierpal: wow
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2018-06-09T11:59:13Z longshi: why is that a special day? (i'm more of a scheme guy)
2018-06-09T12:00:25Z beach: longshi: Usually, special variables are created using DEFVAR or DEFPARMETER, and they also proclaim the variable special.
2018-06-09T12:00:52Z beach: longshi: So there is usually no reason for such a declaration.
2018-06-09T12:00:56Z random9899: finally git cloned informatimago too
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2018-06-09T12:02:35Z phoe: this time I wanted to declare a variable special only locally, without creating a global binding
2018-06-09T12:03:39Z longshi: beach: thx!
2018-06-09T12:04:02Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-06-09T12:08:20Z beach: longshi: So what brings you to #lisp?
2018-06-09T12:09:04Z longshi: I started reading Practical Common Lisp, installed sbcl
2018-06-09T12:09:15Z longshi: and slime is so neat
2018-06-09T12:09:19Z beach: Great!
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2018-06-09T12:09:57Z longshi: i'm still more used to (r6rs) scheme ways of doing things, but it's lisp after all, similar enough
2018-06-09T12:10:37Z beach: Is it just out of curiosity, or are you planning to write some code using Common Lisp?
2018-06-09T12:12:20Z longshi: I believe so, yeah--i'm still an amateur though, i'll start BA in CS this October
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2018-06-09T12:12:37Z longshi: btw, now that we're talking, a question:
2018-06-09T12:12:41Z random9899: ya and this way i get the reports http://dpaste.com/3B1MR1F
2018-06-09T12:12:54Z longshi: so i went through cl-koans by google
2018-06-09T12:13:32Z longshi: would you recommend it as an intro to a language or is there something better?
2018-06-09T12:13:52Z longshi: (i like them koans, i learn faster when it's interactive)
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2018-06-09T12:14:25Z longshi: beach: this wasn't to precise--yes, i think i will write code in CL once i know it well enough
2018-06-09T12:14:47Z beach: I haven't looked at the koans.  Do you have a link?
2018-06-09T12:15:04Z longshi: Especially comparing library situation of CL and various schemes
2018-06-09T12:15:29Z longshi: beach: here https://github.com/google/lisp-koans/
2018-06-09T12:15:30Z phoe: beach: I assume https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
2018-06-09T12:15:43Z beach: Thanks.
2018-06-09T12:15:50Z beach: longshi: Let me have a look...
2018-06-09T12:16:02Z longshi: :)
2018-06-09T12:16:28Z beach: longshi: Oh, lots of unconventional code in there.
2018-06-09T12:17:03Z beach: longshi: I am looking at dice-project.lsp (the first one I clicked on)...
2018-06-09T12:17:59Z beach: longshi: Wrong number of semicolons in comments.  Parentheses by themselves on a line.  Wrong indentation.
2018-06-09T12:18:38Z beach: Looking at control-statements.lsp...
2018-06-09T12:19:19Z beach: For one thing, Common Lisp "statements" are called "forms" in most situations.
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2018-06-09T12:19:49Z beach: (+ 1 x) should be (1+ x)
2018-06-09T12:19:50Z random-nick: also, why .lsp instead od .lisp?
2018-06-09T12:19:57Z beach: That too.
2018-06-09T12:20:05Z beach: There should not be a newline after (and
2018-06-09T12:20:50Z beach: Nor after (or
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2018-06-09T12:21:23Z beach: Looking at clos.lsp...
2018-06-09T12:21:32Z beach: Wrong indentation, wrong number of semicolons.
2018-06-09T12:21:36Z kenanb: longshi: if you are coming from scheme, you can probably just read some good library code along PCL to learn the language.
2018-06-09T12:21:49Z jackdaniel: random-nick: lsp was one of agreed extensions in the early CL days (think about MS-DOS for instance). now .lisp seem to have took over, but there are still codebases with .lsp
2018-06-09T12:22:33Z kenanb: longshi: I remember cl-ppcre being a frequently suggested code reading exercise
2018-06-09T12:22:44Z beach: Use of get- and set- prefixes.  We have a few of those for historical reasons, but they should be avoided in new code.
2018-06-09T12:22:55Z longshi: hmm
2018-06-09T12:23:08Z longshi: yeah, i use (1+ x) in scheme too
2018-06-09T12:23:14Z beach: longshi: I am sorry to say that there are many problem in that code.
2018-06-09T12:23:16Z longshi: kenanb: any pointers?
2018-06-09T12:23:28Z longshi: kenanb: thanks!
2018-06-09T12:23:46Z longshi: i didn't properly read it all before responding
2018-06-09T12:25:30Z beach: Looking at lists.lsp...
2018-06-09T12:25:51Z beach: Initialization of lexical variable in LET that is then immediately assigned to.
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2018-06-09T12:27:13Z beach: longshi: So if you want to look at the koans, you had better be careful not to pick up some of the bad habits in that code.
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2018-06-09T12:34:54Z kenanb: longshi: also, maybe not many would agree with me, but I think Hyperspec is way more than a reference. It is a great resource to learn the language once you are familiar with the basics.
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2018-06-09T12:47:13Z longshi: Hyperspec?
2018-06-09T12:47:19Z phoe: the CLHS
2018-06-09T12:47:23Z phoe: clhs car
2018-06-09T12:47:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2018-06-09T12:47:25Z beach: clhs cons
2018-06-09T12:47:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_cons.htm
2018-06-09T12:48:00Z longshi: ah, nice!
2018-06-09T12:48:01Z jackdaniel: longshi: if you need to look something up I recommend using l1sp.org
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2018-06-09T12:48:05Z longshi: didn't know that existed
2018-06-09T12:48:10Z jackdaniel: it has lookup into clhs, pcl and some other resources
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2018-06-09T12:48:26Z beach: longshi: It's basically a HTML-ized version of the standard.
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2018-06-09T13:07:54Z beach: In SICL, I plan to represent code in a code object, as written here: http://metamodular.com/code-object.pdf but I have some questions...
2018-06-09T13:08:22Z beach: What kind of information should the liveness include?
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2018-06-09T13:08:38Z beach: Is there any information missing that I should add?
2018-06-09T13:09:38Z beach: In what situations should the NEXT debugger command go from the end of a form to the BEGINNING of the next form to be evaluated?
2018-06-09T13:10:41Z beach: I am thinking if two forms are just sequential like this: (form1 ...) (form2 ...) then from the end of (form1 ...) the NEXT command should go to the end of (form2 ...).
2018-06-09T13:12:01Z beach: But maybe if there is a big gap between the two forms, like in ((((.... (form1...)))) (form2 ...)) then perhaps go from the end of (form1 ...) to the beginning of (form2 ...).
2018-06-09T13:12:24Z beach: Just thinking out loud here.
2018-06-09T13:12:28Z phoe: beach: the three commands that I know from debuggers are STEP-INTO, STEP-OVER, STEP-OUT.
2018-06-09T13:12:52Z beach: GDB has STEP and NEXT, as I recall.
2018-06-09T13:13:01Z beach: But STEP-OVER is fine.
2018-06-09T13:13:32Z phoe: Every time, we're at the beginning of some form. STEP-INTO steps inside that form, STEP-OVER steps to the next form, and STEP-OUT steps out of the function we are currently in.
2018-06-09T13:13:34Z LdBeth: beach (IRC): it would be nice if code objects can be converted back into S exps
2018-06-09T13:13:37Z beach: I guess I need a table for STEP-OUT.
2018-06-09T13:13:51Z beach: phoe: Oh, OK.
2018-06-09T13:13:55Z phoe: beach: either a table or some kind of stack information.
2018-06-09T13:14:13Z beach: LdBeth: Why is that?  I have the complete source code in it.
2018-06-09T13:14:14Z phoe: If you know where on the stack you are, you should be able to somehow infer information for STEP-OUT.
2018-06-09T13:14:35Z beach: Right, I don't think I need anything particular for STEP-OUT.
2018-06-09T13:16:28Z beach: I guess I might need a table for STEP-IN.
2018-06-09T13:16:46Z phoe: beach: what kind of table?
2018-06-09T13:17:04Z beach: Given a PC value, where is the next PC value to stop at.
2018-06-09T13:17:12Z phoe: Hm. STEP-IN will put another function call on the stack and you can begin from there, i assume.
2018-06-09T13:17:23Z phoe: The next step value should be somewhere inside the new function.
2018-06-09T13:17:27Z beach: Not necessarily.
2018-06-09T13:17:50Z phoe: In what cases won't it be? Special operators?
2018-06-09T13:17:55Z LdBeth: beach: if someone prefers directly working on code objects instead without any text format source code, there needs a way to print out these internal objects into human readable format, this is what I’m concerning
2018-06-09T13:18:27Z beach: phoe: That, and inlined stuff, like (F X).  Computing F or X does not require a function call.
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2018-06-09T13:20:03Z phoe: beach: I see, yes.
2018-06-09T13:22:06Z beach: LdBeth: Code objects are typically not used by the application programmer, so I don't see a use case for such a conversion.  Plus, there is no good way to convert machine code to Common Lisp source code.
2018-06-09T13:23:14Z makomo: beach: i see that your document is just a small part of something much bigger. is this big document yet to be released?
2018-06-09T13:23:43Z beach: makomo: It is work in progress, namely the SICL specification.  It is available in the repository.
2018-06-09T13:24:30Z makomo: ah, ok
2018-06-09T13:24:50Z kenanb: beach: isn't that exactly the description of next (step-over) ?
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2018-06-09T13:25:59Z beach: kenanb: Yes, what I wrote as NEXT is apparently more often referred to as STEP-OVER.
2018-06-09T13:26:00Z kenanb: AFAIK in GDB terms step-into is step, step-over is next, step-out is finish
2018-06-09T13:26:09Z beach: Correct.
2018-06-09T13:26:32Z kenanb: there are also instruction granularity variants for next and step
2018-06-09T13:26:43Z beach: That's true too.
2018-06-09T13:26:44Z kenanb: but I don't know if they apply to your implementation
2018-06-09T13:27:10Z beach: The document is not about the debugger, but about the support that the debugger needs from the implementation.
2018-06-09T13:27:21Z beach: Stepping by instruction needs no support in the code object.
2018-06-09T13:28:55Z kenanb: yeah, I guess so. I am slightly alien to SICL
2018-06-09T13:29:30Z beach: That's understandable.
2018-06-09T13:35:35Z beach: phoe: Wait!  I would expect STEP-OUT to stop after the current surrounding form.  No?
2018-06-09T13:36:23Z kenanb: yes
2018-06-09T13:36:28Z beach: phoe: Like if I have (f (g x) (h y)) and I am positioned between (g x) and (h y), I would expect STEP-OUT to stop after (f (g x) (h y))
2018-06-09T13:36:33Z phoe: Hm.
2018-06-09T13:36:37Z phoe: Yes.
2018-06-09T13:36:37Z beach: kenanb: Whew!  Thanks.
2018-06-09T13:37:11Z beach: OK, so I need three tables.  One for each debugger command.
2018-06-09T13:37:43Z MichaelRaskin: Is this enough for stepping in if?
2018-06-09T13:37:59Z beach: I don't know.  What are you thinking of?
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2018-06-09T13:39:42Z MichaelRaskin: (if (complicated-condition) (complex-call-1) (complex-call-2)) — if the condition is false, and you are at the end of the of the condition evaluation, should there be a way to show next form to execute?
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2018-06-09T13:40:41Z beach: Yes, I think so.  Some command needs to go to the beginning of (complex-call-2).
2018-06-09T13:41:13Z beach: I would expect STEP-OVER to do that.
2018-06-09T13:41:34Z beach: Oh, but I see what you are saying...
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2018-06-09T13:41:49Z beach: A single address in the table would not be enough would it?
2018-06-09T13:42:31Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe not. Also, after being at the end of condition already, is there a command to go to the beginning of the next form?
2018-06-09T13:42:32Z beach: Actually, it might be.
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2018-06-09T13:43:55Z beach: Yes, as I wrote in the document, I expect that if the current position is AFTER some form, then STEP-OVER should sometimes go AFTER the next form and sometimes BEFORE, and you have found a situation where it should stop BEFORE.
2018-06-09T13:44:32Z beach: But, yes, the table should contain an entry for each branch of the IF, so a single address should be sufficient.
2018-06-09T13:44:55Z MichaelRaskin: Not sure what is the proper thing to do with case.
2018-06-09T13:45:17Z kenanb: oh this is awesome, it provides great insight into details of a modern CL implementation.
2018-06-09T13:46:23Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Yeah, not obvious.  But I think that, as far as the code object is concerned, I need three tables, one for STEP-IN, one for STEP-OVER and one for STEP-OUT.
2018-06-09T13:46:39Z beach: kenanb: The SICL specification?
2018-06-09T13:47:02Z kenanb: beach: yep! I am already liking it.
2018-06-09T13:47:11Z beach: kenanb: Oh, good!
2018-06-09T13:48:12Z LdBeth: So the STEPPING is S exp based and each S exp has its corresponding code object?
2018-06-09T13:48:30Z kenanb: are the implementation decisions (close to/unfluenced by) a certain popular CL implementation?
2018-06-09T13:48:55Z beach: LdBeth: Yes, stepping is by forms.  No, all the functions in a file share the same code object.
2018-06-09T13:49:14Z beach: kenanb: I hope not! :)
2018-06-09T13:50:02Z kenanb: haha, no love for existing implementations? :)
2018-06-09T13:50:39Z Bike: they tend not to document this stuff.
2018-06-09T13:50:47Z LdBeth: Yeah, seem many ideas comes up from scratch
2018-06-09T13:50:54Z beach: kenanb: Right.  Existing implementations date from several decades ago.  We have better programming techniques nowadays.
2018-06-09T13:51:10Z Bike: or they just don't have steppers.
2018-06-09T13:51:18Z Bike: i don't think sbcl's is working? i haven't tried it in a while
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2018-06-09T13:52:12Z kenanb: yeah, I was just wondering what kind of performance characteristics should etc. I should expect from SICL, I figured the answer is easy if there is a heavy influence. I don't mind ideas being new or old as long as they are good :)
2018-06-09T13:52:17Z Bike: also, i know you're asking about debugging, beach, but maybe the code object should have the load time values as well? if only for the gc.
2018-06-09T13:52:46Z Bike: though i guess if all the functions in a file have the same code object it can't be garbage collected very finely
2018-06-09T13:54:01Z beach: kenanb: In the Cleavir compiler framework, we hope to implement most of the good existing compiler optimizations from the literature, and a few of our own.
2018-06-09T13:55:05Z beach: Bike: Well, the LOAD-TIME-VALUEs are computed at, er, load-time and then they become part of the environment.  That way, if they are dead, they will be garbage collected automatically.
2018-06-09T13:55:32Z LdBeth: Emm, there’s no pseudo instruction set?
2018-06-09T13:55:43Z Bike: of the... oh right, it makes everything closures
2018-06-09T13:55:51Z beach: Bike: Right.
2018-06-09T13:56:14Z beach: LdBeth: There is intermediate code if that is what you mean.  But no byte codes at run time.
2018-06-09T13:57:27Z beach: kenanb: There are a few decisions that may be hard to optimize away, like the mandatory header indirection for all heap-allocated object (except CONS cells).  But there are so many advantages to that representation that I am not willing to change that decision.
2018-06-09T13:58:10Z LdBeth: beach: Is the intermediate code arch dependent?
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2018-06-09T13:59:16Z beach: LdBeth: AST and HIR are architecture independent, but MIR might have specific instructions in it.
2018-06-09T13:59:29Z beach: H = High-level  M = Medium-level
2018-06-09T14:02:18Z LdBeth: Which one is the DISSEMBLE supposed to produce?
2018-06-09T14:02:45Z beach: DISASSEMBLE produces native instructions in assembly format.
2018-06-09T14:02:58Z drmeister: beach: When you say mandatory header indirection of all heap-allocated objects - you mean the pointer to the rack?
2018-06-09T14:03:01Z Bike: the IR are just used by the compiler. they're not executable.
2018-06-09T14:03:02Z drmeister: Hello everyone
2018-06-09T14:03:17Z beach: Hello drmeister.
2018-06-09T14:03:35Z makomo: hello :-)
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2018-06-09T14:03:54Z beach: drmeister: Yes, I mean that some implementations may represent things like symbols and simple arrays without a header object.
2018-06-09T14:04:08Z makomo: beach: i think there's a typo in "determine which registers contain Common Lisp objects* that should be traced"?
2018-06-09T14:04:16Z beach: drmeister: The header object in SICL is therefore an indirection that some implementations may not always have.
2018-06-09T14:04:28Z beach: makomo: Thanks.  Fixing...
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2018-06-09T14:04:36Z drmeister: Right - then Clasp does represent things like symbols and simple arrays without a header object.  Got it.
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2018-06-09T14:05:55Z makomo: beach: another observation that's interesting to me. i don't know whether it's valid, but bear with me while i try to formulate what i mean.
2018-06-09T14:06:55Z makomo: beach: so the code objects expose a certain interface for the debugger. in this approach, the code objects "know about the debugger" in a certain way, i.e. the only reason that interface exists in the first place is because of the debugger
2018-06-09T14:07:24Z makomo: does this in a certain sense "break the abstraction" or is this intentional? i.e. the code objects are just part of the whole compiler framework and it was expected all along for the debugger to exist in this context as well
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2018-06-09T14:08:18Z beach: makomo: It is definitely intentional.  I have already written a specification for a debugger that will use this information.
2018-06-09T14:08:40Z beach: makomo: The code object also contains information for the garbage collector, like the register map.
2018-06-09T14:09:17Z beach: New version: http://metamodular.com/code-object.pdf
2018-06-09T14:09:33Z makomo: ah i see
2018-06-09T14:09:40Z beach: makomo: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf
2018-06-09T14:09:53Z makomo: beach: btw, that document isn't searchable for me. i've tried both with Firefox and Okular.
2018-06-09T14:10:07Z makomo: i can select the text just fine, but for some reason ctrl+f doesn't work
2018-06-09T14:10:23Z beach: I don't know why, and I don't know how to fix it.  Sorry!
2018-06-09T14:10:30Z makomo: oh hmm, trying to copy/paste it yields just a bunch of "diamond box with a question mark" signs
2018-06-09T14:10:54Z beach: Maybe because I produced it using the PRINT command of evince.
2018-06-09T14:11:00Z makomo: beach: very interesting, thanks!
2018-06-09T14:11:37Z makomo: beach: clordane.pdf is searchable btw
2018-06-09T14:11:48Z beach: So, it must be the PRINT command.
2018-06-09T14:12:20Z beach: Because I am using the exact same method to produce all my documents.
2018-06-09T14:12:28Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-09T14:12:58Z beach: Oh, I guess there could be some LaTeX document class missing on some documents.
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2018-06-09T14:13:54Z beach: makomo: The main thing with Clordane is that one thread is used to debug another thread, and the debugged thread can be the debugger.
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2018-06-09T14:14:23Z beach: I think most existing implementations don't have support for that kind of debugging.
2018-06-09T14:14:31Z makomo: in the sense that you can nest debuggers or that you can debug yourself?
2018-06-09T14:14:41Z beach: The latter.
2018-06-09T14:14:48Z makomo: huh interesting
2018-06-09T14:15:07Z beach: So breakpoints are thread-specific.
2018-06-09T14:16:07Z beach: That makes it possible to set breakpoints in some standard Common Lisp functions as well, without causing the entire system to grind to a halt.
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2018-06-09T14:17:29Z makomo: i see
2018-06-09T14:17:57Z makomo: beach: typo in clordane.pdf "a volatile break point is also destroyed when the program control reaches is*"
2018-06-09T14:18:07Z beach: Thanks.
2018-06-09T14:18:09Z beach: Fixing...
2018-06-09T14:18:46Z makomo: hm, 1.2.2 says "the debugger thread can not debug itself", so i think i misunderstood what you said
2018-06-09T14:18:56Z makomo: "but is can debug the same code running in a different thread"
2018-06-09T14:19:20Z makomo: it*
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2018-06-09T14:21:25Z beach: Yes, it's the same code, but running in two different threads.
2018-06-09T14:22:37Z makomo: right, i was thinking of literally debugging yourself, within the same thread
2018-06-09T14:22:44Z beach: No, that would not work.
2018-06-09T14:23:10Z beach: So if I am debugging some application, I can set a breakpoint in (say) FIND without affecting the compiler or any other system that might call FIND.
2018-06-09T14:23:33Z makomo: mhm, that sounds pretty cool
2018-06-09T14:24:02Z beach: Thanks!
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2018-06-09T14:25:15Z MichaelRaskin: makomo: and you need a new implementation even for a much weaker thing, like guarantees that (let ((x (+ 2 3))) (break) x) doesn't optimise x away
2018-06-09T14:28:30Z makomo: MichaelRaskin: what do you mean by "new implementation" here?
2018-06-09T14:30:19Z MichaelRaskin: Judging from the implementers' surprise when they learned that their implementation also optimises this away, yes debug 3 safety 3 speed 0, unless you plan the debugger beforehand, it is hard to make sure optimiser makes sucj decisions in a fully controllable way
2018-06-09T14:30:55Z MichaelRaskin: And yes, you can work around this by macros, but there is a slowdown, of course
2018-06-09T14:32:36Z LdBeth: MichaelRaskin: CCL doesn’t optimize overhead
2018-06-09T14:32:50Z LdBeth: at all
2018-06-09T14:34:11Z MichaelRaskin: You want to say that it will never optimise this single-use variable away and never did?
2018-06-09T14:34:25Z MichaelRaskin: There was a version that did optimise it away
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2018-06-09T14:40:10Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe even the current one still does
2018-06-09T14:43:58Z kenanb: beach: oh I just read the relevant section. I can see the benefits (actually, I can read them) but it feels like that indirection makes certain optimizations rather impossible. Am I correct? Things like compile time method dispatch when type is known in advance ( I don't even know if that is possible with existing implementations either )
2018-06-09T14:44:58Z kenanb: beach: of course, I am not saying it is a bad idea, I am just trying to understand the implications of the decision.
2018-06-09T14:45:05Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-09T14:45:13Z beach: kenanb: You mean doing the optimization at the call site?  That's tricky stuff anyway.
2018-06-09T14:45:35Z beach: I mean doing the "dispatch" at the call site.
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2018-06-09T14:46:09Z beach: It is tricky because methods can be added and removed after the caller has been compiled.
2018-06-09T14:46:29Z beach: That goes for existing implementations too.
2018-06-09T14:47:53Z kenanb: hmm, you are correct, the method to dispatch over will indeed change as new methods are added to the generic function
2018-06-09T14:48:22Z kenanb: so maybe it is inherently impossible with CLOS
2018-06-09T14:48:41Z phoe: kenanb: not really "inherently impossible"
2018-06-09T14:48:42Z beach: Well, you would have to recompile the call site when the generic function changes.
2018-06-09T14:48:43Z phoe: just tricky
2018-06-09T14:49:10Z beach: It can be done, but I don't intend to do it, at least not initially.
2018-06-09T14:49:18Z phoe: you need to recompile a lot of code on each GF redefinition, and I don't know any implementations that do this
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2018-06-09T14:49:45Z Bike: sbcl does it for make-instance. other than that i don't know.
2018-06-09T14:49:54Z kenanb: s/impossible/impractical
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2018-06-09T14:50:09Z Bike: it's not really impractical either. i mean, it depends on the use case.
2018-06-09T14:50:12Z drmeister: Bike: We can render and view dot graphs in jupyterlab
2018-06-09T14:50:12Z drmeister: https://i.imgur.com/eUDR0FN.png
2018-06-09T14:50:21Z Bike: neato.
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2018-06-09T14:54:39Z Bike: but beach's gf dispatch technique basically makes generic functions a JIT mechanism where dispatch is very fast, and doesn't involve putting methods together or anything. since the problem of method combination is made mostly static all a call cache gets you is a slightly shorter dispatch, which is probably not a huge win
2018-06-09T14:54:48Z makomo: Bike: is that a graphviz pun :-D
2018-06-09T14:55:00Z Bike: i realized it was about a second after saying it
2018-06-09T14:55:07Z makomo: hahaha
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2018-06-09T14:56:11Z phoe: I didn't get the pun
2018-06-09T14:56:32Z beach: phoe: http://www.graphviz.org/pdf/neatoguide.pdf
2018-06-09T14:57:45Z makomo: phoe: neato is one of the graphviz programs/layout algorithms
2018-06-09T14:57:48Z drmeister: You can scroll around and zoom but not search (sigh).  Maybe there is a better chrome PDF viewer.
2018-06-09T14:58:14Z Bike: i think one thing that would be interesting to do would be compiling accessors within method bodies as not having caches at all- since the dispatch caching could be extended to recompile things when necessary
2018-06-09T14:58:18Z Bike: not right now though
2018-06-09T14:58:31Z phoe: beach: makomo: .........I never realized that
2018-06-09T14:58:38Z makomo: phoe: now you know :-D
2018-06-09T14:58:39Z phoe: This is a terrible pun and I enjoy it
2018-06-09T14:59:00Z makomo: it's a graphviz in-joke of sorts
2018-06-09T14:59:30Z makomo: beach: where should i look for this gf dispatch method that you described? i'm interested
2018-06-09T15:01:45Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, I don't know, it would probably only be significant in tight loops. It would probably be cool to be able to claim something like "inside this function, foo-method calls will always dispatch over the exact same function and I promise I will not redefine it before the end of the loop"
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2018-06-09T15:03:27Z kenanb: letting compiler temporarily treat a certain method as a regular function via a claim, so it can grab a raw pointer to the function and work with it during the loop
2018-06-09T15:05:20Z kenanb: Bike: my reply was a reply to your earlier statement, I think the last one also makes sense tho
2018-06-09T15:05:36Z Bike: i got that, yes
2018-06-09T15:12:35Z kenanb: of course, that optimization can usually be achieved by programmers being more specific about their intent, like refactoring that particular method body into a regular function and calling it directly when necessary, so its not a huge problem.
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2018-06-09T15:24:24Z Bike: yeah i mean if the programmer is guaranteeing the method won't be redefined etc they're basically not using anything about clos
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2018-06-09T15:34:01Z kenanb: well, they might still be dynamically dispatching over a gf, the claim was the dispatch is the same for calls in all iteration of that particular loop
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2018-06-09T15:35:51Z kenanb: every time you hit that loop the dispatch would be done only once, but the arrays you are iterating over would hold different objects
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2018-06-09T15:45:41Z Bike: mm, i see how that could be interesting.
2018-06-09T15:46:20Z Bike: it would be pretty easy for me to hook something up that fetched the effective method function for a given list of specializers. then you'd just call it. the rest is syntactic sugar
2018-06-09T15:46:36Z Bike: and/or declaring dispatch loop invariant and yada yada yada
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2018-06-09T15:49:50Z kenanb: cool!
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2018-06-09T15:53:28Z beach: makomo: Here: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2018-06-09T15:53:38Z Bike: you could have like (with-fixed-gf (foo integer string (eql 'fazbar)) ...) expand into (let ((#:foo (effective-method-function #'foo (list (find-class 'integer) (find-class 'string) (intern-eql-specializer 'fazbar))))) (flet ((foo (&rest args) (apply #:foo args))) ...)) for a start
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2018-06-09T15:56:14Z phoe: this sounds like something that could be achievable using compiler macros
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2018-06-09T15:56:49Z phoe: if you'd like to skip the WITH-FIXED-GF part
2018-06-09T15:57:12Z Bike: well it would be like a local compiler macro.
2018-06-09T15:59:42Z makomo: beach: thanks!
2018-06-09T15:59:55Z beach: Pleasure!
2018-06-09T16:00:52Z phoe: Bike: compiler-macrolet?
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2018-06-09T16:02:16Z phoe: clhs 3.2.2.1.2
2018-06-09T16:02:16Z specbot: Naming of Compiler Macros: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbab.htm
2018-06-09T16:02:32Z phoe: Compiler macro definitions are strictly global. There is no provision for defining local compiler macros in the way that macrolet defines local macros.
2018-06-09T16:02:35Z phoe: boo
2018-06-09T16:04:41Z MichaelRaskin: Just codewalk
2018-06-09T16:05:21Z makomo: how do you guys pronounce "macrolet"? ever since i read that about it in cltl2, i can't stop pronouncing it in a way that rhymes with chevrolet :-)
2018-06-09T16:05:34Z makomo: s/that//
2018-06-09T16:06:05Z phoe: makomo: I pronounce chevrolet like I pronounce car
2018-06-09T16:08:28Z makomo: how do you do that?
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2018-06-09T16:19:57Z kenanb: Bike: yeah, that looks like a pretty elegant way to express such a thing. btw your ELS talk is very interesting.
2018-06-09T16:20:13Z Bike: last year?
2018-06-09T16:20:17Z kenanb: yeah
2018-06-09T16:20:32Z Bike: it's been hard sailing, unfortunately
2018-06-09T16:23:31Z alandipert: anyone have suggestions about how i could speed this up? it's currently about 2x slower than c. thanks in advance! https://github.com/alandipert/puzzles/blob/master/blackjack/sbcl/outcomes_optimized.lisp
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2018-06-09T16:25:44Z Bike: does sbcl give you any notes?
2018-06-09T16:26:48Z alandipert: Bike no
2018-06-09T16:28:53Z alandipert: my guess is function call overhead (of PARTITIONS) is maybe the next slowest thing? but i don't know how to measure that. and i can't easily inline partitions because it's recursive
2018-06-09T16:29:20Z alandipert: so i was thinking maybe a next step would be a tail recursive version of partitions
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2018-06-09T16:38:45Z phoe: alandipert: declare inline?
2018-06-09T16:39:13Z phoe: as in, (declaim (inline partition)) in line 4?
2018-06-09T16:40:11Z phoe: oh wait, it's recursive
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2018-06-09T17:01:53Z kenanb: if you are really worried about performance, maybe you should stick to loops. making it tail-recursive will make the stack happy, but it will not decrease your call overhead.
2018-06-09T17:01:54Z slyrus2: Is there a way to "trace" ASDF such that one can actually see what the calls to the compiler are?
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2018-06-09T17:04:06Z pfdietz: You could trace COMPILE-FILE, or maybe there's some generic function you could write an around method for.
2018-06-09T17:04:34Z slyrus2: pfdietz: yeah, I tried that but I don't seem to get any output. I must be doing something wrong.
2018-06-09T17:05:18Z kenanb: AFAIK asdf already provided an interface to access generated list of all tasks for a certain load-op.
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2018-06-09T17:06:43Z slyrus2: right, do you know what that is? :)
2018-06-09T17:06:50Z pfdietz: Check if ASDF is binding *TRACE-OUTPUT*.
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2018-06-09T17:10:26Z kenanb: slyrus2: asdf:traverse is the function. as I said, that is only for getting the generated task list
2018-06-09T17:10:58Z kenanb: slyrus2: it is mentioned in this video: https://youtu.be/9qO8DkUaqWI?t=31m21s
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2018-06-09T17:11:20Z slyrus2: thanks!
2018-06-09T17:11:42Z slyrus2: but I'd still like the actual compile invocations. still digging.
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2018-06-09T17:21:43Z slyrus2: aha! the with-muffled-compiler-conditions form in uiop.lisp was stealing my trace output.
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2018-06-09T17:35:30Z slyrus2: luis: around?
2018-06-09T17:39:22Z Bike: compile-file is a standard function, so tracing it is undefined behavior and might do weird dumb thing.s
2018-06-09T17:40:08Z slyrus2: Hmm.. interesting. In this case it works fine once I unmuffle the conditions down inside UIOP:compile-file*
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2018-06-09T18:11:56Z random9899: http://dpaste.com/0XVKK6D
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2018-06-09T18:12:09Z random9899: now all the lift-test.lisp tests pass too
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2018-06-09T18:13:58Z random9899: with the lift-standard.config http://dpaste.com/3TZA0YC
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2018-06-09T18:16:13Z random9899: the interactive failure thing was annoying, throwing you into the debugger and stuff....
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2018-06-09T21:23:55Z Inline: weird
2018-06-09T21:26:11Z Inline: the test-creating-multiple-tests testsuite in lift gives me once 4 or 3 or 2 as an answer to a 3 tests grouped by 2 case
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2018-06-09T21:46:45Z Inline: compiling the lift-test system gives consistent results tho, so something is in the vulnerable ephemeral state somewhere
2018-06-09T21:47:13Z Inline: cause testing it right after i load all of my packages and my repl tends to give wrong answers
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2018-06-09T21:47:50Z Inline takes notes
2018-06-09T21:48:16Z Inline: always recompile test frameworks before doing testing
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2018-06-09T23:44:18Z asarch: Two questions: https://pastebin.com/NeBZKbKF
2018-06-09T23:44:22Z asarch: 1) What's wrong?
2018-06-09T23:45:01Z asarch: 2) How could you specify which 'get-sugar' (either from 'chocolate' or from 'cafe') you want in 'serving-drink'?
2018-06-09T23:45:44Z asarch: From the question #1 I get: 3: (ERROR "Illegal function call in method body:~%  ~S" ((FORMAT T "The level of sugar is: ~d~%" (GET-SUGAR CUP))))
2018-06-09T23:45:47Z asarch: From sbcl
2018-06-09T23:46:05Z on_ion: i think 'dinner' is the varname isnt it?
2018-06-09T23:46:38Z on_ion: although i would say, the slot 'sugar' would be part of something that the chocolate and the cafe would share
2018-06-09T23:46:51Z on_ion: like (defclass sugar-water (water) ((sugar...))
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2018-06-09T23:47:11Z Bike: you have serving-drink with a defgeneric with one parameters, and then the method has two parameters.
2018-06-09T23:47:19Z Bike: maybe you meant ((cup dinner))?
2018-06-09T23:47:34Z Bike: ":accessor set-sugar" is probably not what you want
2018-06-09T23:47:41Z asarch checks his notes...
2018-06-09T23:47:49Z Bike: since accessor defines a reader /and/ a writer
2018-06-09T23:48:29Z Bike: defining a writer that isn't a setf function is stylistically wrong, as wlel
2018-06-09T23:48:36Z asarch: Bingo! Problem #1 fixed! You were right Bike, it was ((cup dinner))
2018-06-09T23:49:04Z Bike: as for "how could you specify" i think you're confused
2018-06-09T23:49:16Z Bike: which methid is called naturally depends on the argument dispatch
2018-06-09T23:49:28Z Bike: cup is a dinner, so it calls the GET-SUGAR for dinner
2018-06-09T23:49:38Z Bike: which, per precedence rules, would be the one for CHOCOLATE since it's the leftmost superclass
2018-06-09T23:50:00Z Bike: but having two different slots as you do is kind of bad
2018-06-09T23:50:16Z Bike: you should just specify the sugar slot in a parent class, and then specify initforms in the lower class if you'd like
2018-06-09T23:50:36Z asarch: It is a simple example for my annotations
2018-06-09T23:50:59Z Bike: your example ought to match actual practice, no?
2018-06-09T23:51:00Z asarch: You know, I C++ I could cafe::sugar or chocolate::sugar
2018-06-09T23:51:20Z asarch: s/I C++/in C++/
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2018-06-09T23:51:41Z Bike: in lisp you can't do that
2018-06-09T23:51:47Z Bike: all methods are only dealt with virtually, if you like
2018-06-09T23:51:52Z asarch: I just was wondering if there was such a way to do the same in Lisp
2018-06-09T23:52:01Z asarch: Oh :-(
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2018-06-09T23:52:13Z Bike: why do you want to do that?
2018-06-09T23:52:21Z asarch: There is no way to access super-class method?
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2018-06-09T23:52:35Z Bike: you can access other methods on the same function if you like
2018-06-09T23:52:39Z Bike: clhs call-next-method
2018-06-09T23:52:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm
2018-06-09T23:53:05Z asarch: How would you do that?
2018-06-09T23:53:12Z Bike: check the link
2018-06-09T23:53:28Z Bike: and probably a general tutorial of some kind
2018-06-09T23:54:26Z asarch: In my example, because of the class precedence list 'serving-drink' uses 'sugar' from 'chocolate'
2018-06-09T23:54:39Z Bike: Yes.
2018-06-09T23:54:54Z Bike: There's another quirk here because of your multiple slot definition.
2018-06-09T23:54:58Z asarch: How would you "manually" use 'sugar' from 'cafe'?
2018-06-09T23:55:10Z Bike: As I said, you probably don't want to do that.  You can't have two distinct slots with the same name in the same object.
2018-06-09T23:55:24Z Bike: So your question isn't really valid.
2018-06-09T23:55:28Z asarch: How? Please, I beg you
2018-06-09T23:55:37Z Bike: How what?
2018-06-09T23:55:48Z asarch: How would you "manually" use 'sugar' from 'cafe'?
2018-06-09T23:55:55Z Bike: You can't. There isn't one!
2018-06-09T23:56:03Z Bike: Your dinner class has ONE slot called "sugar".
2018-06-09T23:56:19Z asarch: Really?
2018-06-09T23:56:24Z asarch: Wow!
2018-06-09T23:56:24Z Bike: Yes.
2018-06-09T23:56:33Z Bike: Why would you expect to be able to have distinct slots with the same name?
2018-06-09T23:56:41Z asarch: I thought it was like other programming languages
2018-06-09T23:56:45Z Bike: that would be so confusing.
2018-06-09T23:57:27Z asarch: Why? Most programming languages let you do this
2018-06-09T23:57:44Z asarch: Even PHP which it doesn't support multiple inheritance
2018-06-09T23:58:07Z Bike: As I said, if you must you can think of everything about classes as being what C++ terms "virtual".
2018-06-09T23:58:10Z Bike: It's looked up at runtime.
2018-06-09T23:58:54Z asarch: Wow!
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2018-06-09T23:59:08Z Bike: clhs 7.5.3
2018-06-09T23:59:09Z specbot: Inheritance of Slots and Slot Options: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ec.htm
2018-06-09T23:59:12Z Bike: if you'd like a reference
2018-06-09T23:59:51Z asarch: So, if I do: (defparameter *my-cup* (make-instance 'dinner)) and then (serving-drink *my-cup*), 'sugar' from 'cafe' doesn't exist, right?
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2018-06-10T00:00:13Z Bike: yes. your dinner will have only one slot called SUGAR.
2018-06-10T00:00:35Z Bike: The defclass merges the slot definition information from the 'cafe' and 'chocolate' classes.
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2018-06-10T00:01:54Z asarch: In (defclass dinner (chocolate cafe) ()), I thought the 'sugar' slot was from the last element from the class precedence list
2018-06-10T00:02:09Z asarch: In this case, 'cafe'
2018-06-10T00:02:17Z asarch: But it seems it is the opposite
2018-06-10T00:02:18Z Bike: The page I just linked explains what dinner's slot will be like.
2018-06-10T00:02:29Z Bike: yes, it's left to right.
2018-06-10T00:02:32Z on_ion: sugar-water
2018-06-10T00:02:36Z Bike: though if you want to get a little hardcore you can customize it.
2018-06-10T00:03:16Z Bike: The two slot definitions only differ in their initform and docstring. According to the page I just linked, dinner's slot will have these from the most specific superclass, i.e. CHOCOLATE.
2018-06-10T00:04:51Z asarch takes notes...
2018-06-10T00:06:01Z asarch: This was an easy example to know how Lisp handles the diamond-inheritance problem
2018-06-10T00:07:13Z Bike: mhm.
2018-06-10T00:07:24Z Bike: and as i mentioned you can customize this behavior if you want to deal with mop stuff.
2018-06-10T00:07:51Z Bike: you might even be able to arrange a metaclass where child classes just get the unaltered class from their supers
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2018-06-10T00:08:10Z Bike: and then you access them with some special slot-value where you include a class designator in addition to the slot name
2018-06-10T00:09:24Z asarch: Can you give me an example?
2018-06-10T00:09:51Z asarch: In this case, 'sugar' from 'cafe'
2018-06-10T00:10:45Z Bike: An example of this custom metaclass?
2018-06-10T00:10:59Z asarch: Yeah, using this small example
2018-06-10T00:11:16Z Bike: it would be kind of lengthy to do.
2018-06-10T00:11:19Z asarch: Oh
2018-06-10T00:11:23Z asarch: That's ok
2018-06-10T00:11:36Z asarch: Sorry then
2018-06-10T00:11:43Z asarch: Don't worry
2018-06-10T00:12:05Z asarch: Is 'defclass' part of MOP?
2018-06-10T00:12:34Z Bike: no, it's part of the standard. MOP defines most of the stuff behind how it works.
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2018-06-10T00:13:17Z asarch: Reading about CLOS and all related stuff, I found the CLOS version of Racket is Swindle
2018-06-10T00:13:33Z Bike: i know nothing concerning that topic.
2018-06-10T00:13:50Z asarch: Sorry
2018-06-10T00:15:00Z msmith: hi all, can someone remind me of the command that would allow me to destructure a list and use it as parameters in a function?
2018-06-10T00:15:02Z asarch: Anyway, thank you very much once again
2018-06-10T00:15:08Z asarch: Thank you Bike :-)
2018-06-10T00:15:31Z Bike: msmith: maybe you are thinking of apply
2018-06-10T00:15:33Z Bike: and no problem
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2018-06-10T00:17:44Z msmith: Bike: yes that's it thanks
2018-06-10T00:17:49Z asarch: So far I found three "glitches" in Lisp: 1) You can't read the value of "ARGS" in a binary file (for passing values) 2) There is no standard way to access to the value of :documentation from defclass 3) And this :-P
2018-06-10T00:18:23Z Bike: lisp's object system is more like smalltalk than C++. that's hardly a glitch.
2018-06-10T00:19:00Z Bike: and you can do (documentation (find-class name) t)
2018-06-10T00:20:03Z Bike: and i have no idea what you mean with the first thing
2018-06-10T00:21:45Z asarch: Well, you write an small application in Lisp to start a web server and then you need to specify the port number manually: my-lisp-server --port 8080
2018-06-10T00:22:14Z Bike: you can parse command line arguments, if that's what you mean
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2018-06-10T00:22:47Z asarch: How?
2018-06-10T00:23:12Z Bike: it's nothing i do very often, but there are some libraries, like http://quickdocs.org/command-line-arguments/
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2018-06-10T00:26:37Z asarch: Ok :-)
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2018-06-10T00:29:45Z White_Flame: of course, each implementation also exposes a simple list of strings representing C's argv
2018-06-10T00:30:07Z White_Flame: libraries build on top of those
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2018-06-10T00:44:35Z asarch: Thank you White_Flame
2018-06-10T00:44:39Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-06-10T03:27:22Z drmeister: How does one handle a condition in a handler-bind handler?
2018-06-10T03:28:47Z drmeister: Is there some special return value that the handler returns to indicate that it does or doesn't handle the condition?
2018-06-10T03:29:14Z drmeister: "If the handler declines, the search continues for another handler."
2018-06-10T03:29:17Z drmeister: clhs handler-bind
2018-06-10T03:29:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_handle.htm
2018-06-10T03:29:27Z drmeister: How does it decline?
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2018-06-10T03:56:05Z akkad looks for a swagger parser in cl
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2018-06-10T04:19:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-10T04:19:46Z beach: drmeister: A handler declines by returning normally.
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2018-06-10T04:21:49Z beach: clhs 9.1
2018-06-10T04:21:49Z specbot: Condition System Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_a.htm
2018-06-10T04:22:01Z beach: drmeister: ↑
2018-06-10T04:26:00Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2018-06-10T04:48:45Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I think you are right.  I need more than one `next' PC value when there is a branch in the code.  But I can do that.  I just have the table contain either a singleton address or a list of addresses.
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2018-06-10T05:43:50Z pillton: aeth: I have only just now read your suggestion to specialization-store.
2018-06-10T05:45:11Z pillton: aeth: Sorry about that. I will have to think about it.
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2018-06-10T07:27:23Z aeth: The default type one? It definitely isn't a must-have, but it does prevent increased verbosity when refactoring from certain patterns of DEFUN with DECLARE.
2018-06-10T07:28:37Z aeth: All or almost all (but not all) of one type seems pretty common.
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2018-06-10T07:49:40Z pillton: aeth: Yes. The syntax is quite surprising though (I couldn't think of a better word).
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2018-06-10T07:51:20Z pillton: I have to go. I'll think about it during the week.
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2018-06-10T08:17:25Z aeth: My exact way to do it is probably not the best way to do it, but my API isn't final so I went with it for now.
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2018-06-10T08:23:13Z aeth: The way it would show up when working with sequences would probably be something like: (define-foo map-two-into! ((destination some-seq) (function function) (seq-1 some-seq) (seq-2 some-seq)) (map-into destination function seq-1 seq-2)) Except, of course, it would be doing something more specific that just happens to match that basic pattern.
2018-06-10T08:23:27Z aeth: (i.e. 3 of the same type, 1 of a different type)
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2018-06-10T08:58:22Z beach: I factored the descriptions of the three tables providing support for the debugger STEP-* commands: http://metamodular.com/code-object.pdf
2018-06-10T08:58:59Z beach: Next, I need to figure out the details of the liveness information.
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2018-06-10T09:43:09Z beach: I also updated this document: http://metamodular.com/clordane.pdf (section 1.2.8 on page 4) to reflect the different kinds of possible STEP commands.  I added a description of how Clordane accomplishes stepping.
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2018-06-10T11:04:43Z attila_lendvai: beach: there's something wrong with '1.2. TERMINOLOGY', it's repeated
2018-06-10T11:04:43Z Colleen: attila_lendvai: drmeister said at 2018.05.18 14:56:12: Do you recall how to shut down messages from waf?   Specifically when it links or aggregates all of the scraped files?   The lines are really long and they cause emacs to pause for many seconds when you try to skip over them.
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2018-06-10T11:37:34Z beach: attila_lendvai: I don't see that.
2018-06-10T11:38:40Z attila_lendvai: beach: I can see it if I search for 'Terminology' in the pdf on that^ url. I have 3 maches (as opposed to the expected 2)
2018-06-10T11:39:04Z attila_lendvai: beach: the extra is in all caps
2018-06-10T11:39:21Z attila_lendvai: beach: between 1.2.4 and 1.2.5
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2018-06-10T11:40:20Z beach: Well, on top of the page is the name of the current section in all caps.
2018-06-10T11:41:09Z beach: So there is on in the table of contents, one in the section header, and one on top of a page.
2018-06-10T11:41:45Z attila_lendvai: beach: oh, then I have misparsed it apparently. sorry for the confusion!
2018-06-10T11:41:54Z beach: No problem.
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2018-06-10T12:28:47Z loke: jackdaniel: I created a pull request (#488) to fix the :FIX vs. :FIXED issue.
2018-06-10T12:29:08Z loke: I did it by completely elminate the :FIXED special-cases from the code.
2018-06-10T12:29:14Z loke: beach: thoughts?
2018-06-10T12:31:11Z beach: Looks good to me.
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2018-06-10T13:26:58Z beach: I added a Debugger interactor window and a row of command buttons to the imagined layout of the Clordane windows: http://metamodular.com/clordane-layout.pdf
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2018-06-10T13:29:43Z beach: Designing GUIs is hard.  I need to re-read the book I have on how to do it.
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2018-06-10T14:04:43Z beach: So for liveness information, what would the user of a debugger want to know?  I am thinking at least 1. The current value of the variable.  2. The point in the source code where it was initially created.  3. The points in the source code that may affect its current value.  4.  Other points in the source code where the variable is referred to.  Anything else?
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2018-06-10T14:06:04Z beach: 5. Type restrictions on the variable at the current program point.
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2018-06-10T14:12:51Z phoe: beach: as in, type, constantness and such?
2018-06-10T14:13:06Z phoe: I mean 5.
2018-06-10T14:13:15Z beach: Right.  So that if the user wants to change the value, it will only accept values of the right type.
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2018-06-10T16:05:21Z msmith: anyone know of a way to peak or listen on a concatenated stream?
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2018-06-10T16:11:23Z phoe: msmith: make a broadcast stream that listens from the concatenated stream and sends its output into two different directions
2018-06-10T16:11:30Z phoe: and use that broadcast stream instead
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2018-06-10T16:19:45Z msmith: phoe: hmmm.  no sure I follow. without extra plumbing, how would I create a broadcast stream from the concatenated stream as broadcast streams take output streams.  and were you referring to a two way stream when you  said, "sends its output into two different directions"?
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2018-06-10T16:29:00Z phoe: msmith:
2018-06-10T16:29:03Z phoe: clhs broadcast-stream
2018-06-10T16:29:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_broadc.htm
2018-06-10T16:29:24Z phoe: Basically, you want to be able to send output from your concatenated stream into two different locations.
2018-06-10T16:29:33Z phoe: One of them is your "tap" and the other is the proper destination.
2018-06-10T16:30:41Z phoe: Therefore get your two destination streams - let's call it destination-stream and tap-stream. Then, (make-broadcast-stream destination-stream tap-stream). Then, redirect the data from your source stream into the broadcast stream.
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2018-06-10T18:36:37Z pjb: You can peek and listen to concatenated streams. https://pastebin.com/71YAEJrY
2018-06-10T18:37:19Z pjb: now, ok the behavior of listen is a tad disappointing.  But it's the way it's specified: you cannot count on it too much anyways.
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2018-06-10T18:46:05Z ym: Anybody familiar with CLX? Where do I pass wm-size-hints instance to make it take effect?
2018-06-10T18:48:05Z jackdaniel: ym: I think you set it with set-wm-hints for window
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2018-06-10T18:48:30Z jackdaniel: (setf (wm-hints window) my-wm-hints)
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2018-06-10T18:54:49Z drmeister: Does anyone have a quick guide on when to use with-accessors vs with-slots.  My google search wasn't very illuminating.
2018-06-10T18:55:50Z drmeister: Erik Naggum says use with-accessors when you don't know anything about the class internals.
2018-06-10T18:56:01Z drmeister: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/gIo6I9RFLIg
2018-06-10T18:56:39Z jackdaniel: drmeister: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html , section WITH-SLOTS and WITH-ACCESSORS
2018-06-10T18:57:39Z jackdaniel: with-accessors may be useful if you want to access slots of two objects having slots of the same name
2018-06-10T18:58:14Z ym: Should I somehow convert wm-size-hints to wm-hints before setf'ing window?
2018-06-10T18:59:04Z jackdaniel: ym: I don't know, check out manager.lisp in clx sources
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2018-06-10T19:00:54Z ym: Well, I do. I see wm-size-hints class definition and set-wm-hints definition, but no set-wm-size-hints definition. And that's why I'm asking.
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2018-06-10T19:01:21Z jackdaniel: drmeister: also what Eric Naggum says is correct, because initially there might be slots, but they may get removed in favor of generic functions which are outside the class
2018-06-10T19:01:45Z jackdaniel: so if you use with-accessors then that change to internal class implementation won't affect your code
2018-06-10T19:01:50Z jackdaniel: but if you had with-slots, it would
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2018-06-10T19:02:01Z ym: Seems like I must first encode it.
2018-06-10T19:03:18Z drmeister: Thank you.
2018-06-10T19:04:04Z jackdaniel: sure
2018-06-10T19:06:36Z pjb: so with-accessor outside of the methods, with-slots inside.
2018-06-10T19:09:14Z drmeister: pjb: Thanks! That works for me.
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2018-06-10T19:13:25Z ym: Ok, found it.
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2018-06-10T19:49:44Z thodg: any hope for threads on sbcl/openbsd-i386 ?
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2018-06-10T19:52:44Z akkad: thodg: #sbcl may be able to help. do rthreads only get supported on openbsd-amd64}
2018-06-10T19:53:04Z thodg: akkad: yes for now
2018-06-10T19:53:20Z thodg: dunno if it's rthreads either
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2018-06-10T19:55:00Z akkad: k
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2018-06-10T19:56:10Z jurov: Anyone knows how to make quicklisp compile a system for debugging?
2018-06-10T19:56:50Z phoe: jurov: for debugging? you mean with debug 3?
2018-06-10T19:56:56Z jurov: yep
2018-06-10T19:57:28Z jurov: ah, this looks like it: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/45730012/common-lisp-asdf-tests-compile-system-with-different-optimization-levels
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2018-06-10T20:03:38Z phoe: jurov: remember that a system is able to override those.
2018-06-10T20:03:50Z phoe: use SB-EXT:RESTRICT-COMPILER-POLICY on SBCL.
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2018-06-10T20:04:56Z jurov: phoe: it can be overriden somewhere else then .asd or .lisp file belonging to the system?
2018-06-10T20:09:15Z phoe: jurov: yes.
2018-06-10T20:09:35Z phoe: a Lisp file can contain (locally (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0))) ....)
2018-06-10T20:13:00Z phoe: jurov: it is bad taste, but it happens.
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2018-06-10T20:21:26Z jurov: Ok, thanks.
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2018-06-10T20:24:32Z thodg: akkad: probably rthreads yes =)
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2018-06-10T23:47:50Z slyrus1: phoe: isn't that actually standard practice for SBCL ffi calls?
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2018-06-11T02:59:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-11T06:07:17Z makomo: beach: morning!
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2018-06-11T06:11:49Z blep-on-external: hi beach
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2018-06-11T06:30:26Z makomo: where does the standard explictily define dynamic and indefinite extents?
2018-06-11T06:30:42Z makomo: there's 3.1.6, but it doesn't give definitions for those
2018-06-11T06:30:44Z makomo: clhs 3.1.6
2018-06-11T06:30:45Z specbot: Extent: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_af.htm
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2018-06-11T06:40:41Z spiaggia: makomo: It is defined in the glossary.
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2018-06-11T06:52:38Z makomo: spiaggia: only there?
2018-06-11T06:52:52Z spiaggia: As far as I can see, yes.
2018-06-11T06:53:04Z spiaggia: I grepped for it in the TeX files of the dpANS.
2018-06-11T06:53:52Z makomo: i've looked at those and it's clear to me what they do i think, but i was still hoping for a larger explanation
2018-06-11T06:54:10Z makomo: usually the stuff that's in the glossary is defined somewhere in the standard explictily
2018-06-11T06:54:14Z spiaggia: Oh, you want an explanation?  I can give that to you.
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2018-06-11T06:54:59Z makomo: i think i understand the concepts because it's not so different from C++'s storage duration for example
2018-06-11T06:55:10Z makomo: it's the same concepts/issues regarding lifetime
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2018-06-11T06:55:29Z spiaggia: I shall have to take your word for it.
2018-06-11T06:55:32Z makomo: but i thought there would be a bigger formal definition for them
2018-06-11T06:55:35Z White_Flame: it's also the definition that necessitates thread-local
2018-06-11T06:56:06Z makomo: White_Flame: oh i remember that conversation from the other day but i wasn't following closely. where does it do that?
2018-06-11T06:56:15Z White_Flame: but yes, RAII-style scope boundaries are basically equivalent to dynamic extent
2018-06-11T06:56:39Z White_Flame: makomo: in the glossary definition of dynamic extent
2018-06-11T06:56:52Z makomo: that's what one would call "automatic storage duration" in C++
2018-06-11T06:56:52Z White_Flame: other threads are not "within the execution of a particular form"
2018-06-11T06:57:40Z White_Flame: indefinite extent means that the language mechanics don't make a reference undefined
2018-06-11T06:57:57Z spiaggia: makomo: There is no mention of thread-local in the standard, simply because there is no mention of threads in the standard.
2018-06-11T06:58:07Z makomo: spiaggia: yeah, true
2018-06-11T06:58:20Z makomo: White_Flame: yup. i think of it as just because something that has been malloc'd but never free'd :-)
2018-06-11T06:58:31Z makomo: s/because//
2018-06-11T06:59:01Z White_Flame: although the GC will eliminate non-referenced objects, which might fall in the same technical vocabulary
2018-06-11T06:59:10Z makomo: right, i was thinking of that
2018-06-11T06:59:12Z White_Flame: but it's still indefinite when that will happen
2018-06-11T06:59:19Z White_Flame: if at all ;)
2018-06-11T06:59:20Z makomo: yep
2018-06-11T07:00:34Z makomo: White_Flame: hm so, this implies thread-locality only if we assume the existence of threads and their usual behavior right?
2018-06-11T07:01:07Z White_Flame: "an extent whose duration is bounded by points of establishment and disestablishment within the execution of a particular form. "
2018-06-11T07:01:37Z White_Flame: depends on how you define "within" </bill clinton>
2018-06-11T07:01:58Z White_Flame: but thread locality is certainly compatible with that language
2018-06-11T07:05:33Z makomo: White_Flame: iirc, the whole discussion was started because of the question whether every thread has its own dynamic environment and whether they share the global dynamic environment?
2018-06-11T07:08:37Z hajovonta: hi
2018-06-11T07:08:48Z makomo: hello!
2018-06-11T07:08:54Z makomo: hajovonta: how did you presentation go? :-)
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2018-06-11T07:09:12Z makomo: your*
2018-06-11T07:09:53Z hajovonta: makomo: I haven't hold it yet, first my colleague will do it on the topic of Prolog, this Wednesday as planned
2018-06-11T07:10:05Z hajovonta: I'll do it maybe next week
2018-06-11T07:10:34Z makomo: ah
2018-06-11T07:10:50Z hajovonta: and we will have one on Erlang
2018-06-11T07:11:00Z makomo: you should also sneak a prolog implementation in lisp into your talk :^)
2018-06-11T07:11:14Z makomo: "remember that language from the last time? well here's a 50 line implementation"
2018-06-11T07:11:17Z makomo: or something like that
2018-06-11T07:11:18Z makomo: :-D
2018-06-11T07:11:23Z hajovonta: but Erlang and Prolog are also being teached on our universities, so Lisp is the most alien of all of them
2018-06-11T07:11:47Z makomo: hm cool
2018-06-11T07:12:20Z hajovonta: makomo: I've heard there is a simple Prolog implementation, but I'm not sure if that is something useful or only a subset of some standardized Prolog because I'm not familiar with the language
2018-06-11T07:12:39Z hajovonta: makomo: also I don't have pointers (but Google will surely help me out with that :)
2018-06-11T07:12:47Z makomo: it's probably only just a subset. writing a serious prolog implementation would certainly take more than 50 lines.
2018-06-11T07:12:55Z makomo: but as a toy tongue-in-cheek example it's nice :D
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2018-06-11T07:13:02Z hajovonta: yes, that would be nice :)
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2018-06-11T07:15:11Z White_Flame: makomo: the answer is yes to both.
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2018-06-11T07:15:52Z White_Flame: the thread environments could be considered overlays onto the shared global environment
2018-06-11T07:16:09Z White_Flame: and "environment" really only encapsulates the special variable bindings here
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2018-06-11T07:17:33Z makomo: and certainly stuff like handler bindings, etc.? i.e. the *dynamic* environment
2018-06-11T07:17:46Z White_Flame: ah, yes
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2018-06-11T08:04:51Z makomo: does COMPILE interact in any way with EVAL-WHEN?
2018-06-11T08:05:43Z beach: clhs eval-when
2018-06-11T08:05:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2018-06-11T08:06:07Z makomo: i've been reading that + other sections in 3.2 Compilation for the past hour :-)
2018-06-11T08:06:24Z makomo: also read fare's EVAL-WHEN post
2018-06-11T08:06:31Z makomo: but i still didn't catch all the details
2018-06-11T08:07:00Z beach: The use of the situation :execute (or eval) controls whether evaluation occurs for other eval-when forms; that is, those that are not top level forms, or those in code processed by eval or compile. If the :execute situation is specified in such a form, then the body forms are processed as an implicit progn; otherwise, the eval-when form returns nil.
2018-06-11T08:07:02Z makomo: LOADing a source file is the :execute situation
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2018-06-11T08:07:44Z makomo: ah, my question wasn't formulated very well. i meant to ask does it interact with :compile-toplevel and :load-toplevel
2018-06-11T08:07:50Z makomo: so the answer would be no?
2018-06-11T08:08:06Z makomo: but it does interact with :execute
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2018-06-11T08:08:54Z beach: I think that's what it says, yes.
2018-06-11T08:09:41Z makomo: and the fact that EVAL might perform implicit compilation doesn't mean anything right, i.e. it still only fires with :execute?
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2018-06-11T08:10:38Z beach: makomo: Yes, if EVAL does implicit compilation, it must still respect the restrictions of EVAL in the standard.
2018-06-11T08:10:47Z makomo: if the answer is yes, is that due to the fact that EVAL doesn't consider the stuff it's evaluating a top-level form, or because it's just special cased by the standard somewhere
2018-06-11T08:10:50Z makomo: ah
2018-06-11T08:10:54Z beach: makomo: In other words, COMPILE or EVAL can not pretend to be the file compiler.
2018-06-11T08:11:10Z makomo: so the latter, but i guess "special cased" isn't really a proper thing to say
2018-06-11T08:11:17Z makomo: it's just the way it's defined
2018-06-11T08:11:23Z beach: Yeah.
2018-06-11T08:11:25Z makomo: beach: i see, that's what i was looking for
2018-06-11T08:11:29Z makomo: thanks :-)
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2018-06-11T08:13:04Z makomo: so the notion of "top-level forms" only comes into play with the file compiler then?
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2018-06-11T08:16:56Z jackdaniel: word "only" gives it too little credit, most software is compiled in the end file-by-file, not from the repl. but you are right, top-level forms are important when you compile files
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2018-06-11T08:17:19Z jackdaniel: s/not from the repl/not form by form/
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2018-06-11T08:18:02Z makomo: jackdaniel: heh i guess. thanks :-)
2018-06-11T08:18:09Z jackdaniel: (for instance you expect, that your defun will be visible to other functions in your file)
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2018-06-11T08:19:40Z makomo: so there is not portable way to use the file compiler on stuff "from memory"?
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2018-06-11T08:19:53Z makomo: (i get that it's called the *file* compiler, but still :-))
2018-06-11T08:20:01Z makomo: s/not/no/
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2018-06-11T08:20:50Z MichaelRaskin: (compile nil function-object) will return a compiled-function object.
2018-06-11T08:20:57Z beach: Why would you want to lie to your implementation?
2018-06-11T08:21:08Z beach: makomo: ↑
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2018-06-11T08:22:38Z makomo: beach: well i wouldn't, but currently i'm exploring the details of how the file compiler and eval-when work. i'm not sure if one would even want the effects of the file compiler for "in-memory" stuff, but i don't see why not
2018-06-11T08:23:03Z beach: If you do, you give the :EXECUTE situation.
2018-06-11T08:23:05Z makomo: i.e. why can't i take an arbitrary string and tell the file compiler to compile it, just like it would do after reading (in the "stream of text" sense) it
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2018-06-11T08:23:32Z makomo: after reading the file*
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2018-06-11T08:29:06Z jackdaniel: makomo: that'd require VFS which is not part of CL standard (and not implemented in any implementation so far afaik)
2018-06-11T08:29:19Z jackdaniel: you may create a macro, which takes your string, writes it to temporary file and compiles it with compile-file
2018-06-11T08:29:30Z jackdaniel: that is what slime's C-c C-c does fwiw
2018-06-11T08:29:32Z makomo: jackdaniel: that's one way to do it, but what about the standard defining something like COMPILE-STRING?
2018-06-11T08:29:56Z jackdaniel: it does not define such thing, period
2018-06-11T08:29:59Z jackdaniel: ;)
2018-06-11T08:30:54Z makomo: well, exactly, which is my point :D
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2018-06-11T08:31:14Z shrdlu68: You could just create temporary files...
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2018-06-11T08:32:00Z jackdaniel: makomo: I'd go with temporary files for now (there is no other way around that afaik). When vfs becomes *the thing* (probably never snh) then you will be able to create a virtual file from string
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2018-06-11T08:34:48Z makomo: shrdlu68: jackdaniel: mhm
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2018-06-11T09:37:20Z shrdlu68: https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1436770946l/20603909.jpg
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2018-06-11T10:51:04Z fm4d_: Hi, could someone explain this behaviour to me? https://pastebin.com/3ypJB8Cn I thought I understand closures in lisps and this really confuses me.
2018-06-11T10:52:03Z beach: fm4d_: You are modifying constant data.
2018-06-11T10:52:09Z beach: That is not allowed by the standard.
2018-06-11T10:52:10Z fm4d_: Why the 'var' variable behaves as if it is a part of closures surrounding the function.
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2018-06-11T10:52:47Z beach: Try replacing '(a b c d e) with (list 'a 'b 'c 'd 'e).
2018-06-11T10:53:39Z fm4d_: That works, but why?
2018-06-11T10:53:40Z beach: fm4d_: When you have constant data like that, the implementation is free to reuse the same constant each time you call the function, because, like I said, you are not allowed to modify it.
2018-06-11T10:53:44Z beach: I told you.
2018-06-11T10:53:57Z beach: You are not allowed to modify constant data the way you are.
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2018-06-11T10:54:18Z beach: fm4d_: The consequences are undefined if you modify constants.
2018-06-11T10:54:22Z fm4d_: Hm
2018-06-11T10:54:29Z beach: And you just observed one possible consequence.
2018-06-11T10:54:50Z fm4d_: Thanks
2018-06-11T10:54:55Z beach: Anytime.
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2018-06-11T10:59:47Z hajovonta: is the (list 'a 'b 'c 'd 'e) evaluated every time when the closure is called?
2018-06-11T11:00:17Z beach: hajovonta: Yes.
2018-06-11T11:01:18Z beach: And, technically, it is not a "closure", since it does not close over any lexical variables.
2018-06-11T11:01:45Z beach: The function TEST in the example is defined in the global environment, also known as the null lexical environment.
2018-06-11T11:04:05Z hajovonta: I know I asked this before, but.. I'm a bit confused over this null lexical environment thing. It is like when calling (eval) and then inside the eval I have null environment and can't access things outside that.
2018-06-11T11:04:51Z beach: If you mean things like (let ((x 10)) (eval 'x)), then yes, you are right, eval does not take into account the lexical variable x.
2018-06-11T11:05:28Z beach: The reason for that is to allow compiler writers to optimize the code.
2018-06-11T11:05:41Z hajovonta: is it possible to circumvent it?
2018-06-11T11:05:56Z beach: Not really, no.
2018-06-11T11:06:19Z beach: Imagine a slightly modified example: (let ((x 10)) (f x) (eval (read)))
2018-06-11T11:06:54Z beach: If EVAL had to take into account the lexical environment, then you would have to keep X alive after the call to (f x).
2018-06-11T11:07:16Z beach: And you would have to keep environment information available at run time.
2018-06-11T11:07:34Z beach: As it is now, the compiler writer is free to assume that X is dead after (f x).
2018-06-11T11:08:04Z beach: Furthermore, the compiler writer is allowed to replace the entire thing with (progn (f 10) (eval (read))) so that there is no longer any X.
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2018-06-11T11:09:03Z beach: Again, if EVAL had to take lexical environments into account, then a host of optimizations would not be possible, and then you (perhaps not you personally, but many people here) would complain that Common Lisp is slow because it is impossible to optimize the code.
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2018-06-11T11:09:43Z beach: hajovonta: The creators of Common Lisp were very smart that way.  They pushed the envelope of the language as much as they could, but without making it hard for the compiler writer to optimize.
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2018-06-11T11:11:21Z beach: hajovonta: Am I making sense to you?
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2018-06-11T11:13:11Z hajovonta: beach: compiler optimization is a good thing, but I have a (I think) special case when I would need to generate and evaluate forms at runtime, with access to the lexical environment. And I don't know yet how to do that.
2018-06-11T11:13:33Z hajovonta: Common Lisp is very flexible so I think I will find a way eventually.
2018-06-11T11:13:44Z beach: You might be able to use some implementation-specific solution.
2018-06-11T11:14:00Z hajovonta: I use SBCL. Does it have one?
2018-06-11T11:14:12Z beach: After all, SBCL with SLIME is able to evaluate forms relative to a lexical environment.
2018-06-11T11:14:45Z beach: You are still not protected from the compiler removing variables that are not lexically apparent.
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2018-06-11T11:16:31Z hajovonta: when I write (loop (eval (read-line))) I'm in null environment with every line?
2018-06-11T11:16:52Z beach: Yes, that's how EVAL is defined.
2018-06-11T11:16:59Z beach: clhs eval.
2018-06-11T11:16:59Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for eval..
2018-06-11T11:17:03Z beach: clhs eval
2018-06-11T11:17:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eval.htm
2018-06-11T11:17:20Z TMA: another option would be to allow the capture of the lexical environment -- this could be used to provide the information to eval as well as to let the compiler know optimizations are not permissible in this particular part of the code; to make that portably is not well specified in the standard (there are macros with &env for capturing the environment, but the standard eval does not accept it)
2018-06-11T11:17:26Z beach: "Evaluates form in the current dynamic environment and the null lexical environment."
2018-06-11T11:18:16Z beach: TMA: &environment arguments are about lexical environments at compile time.
2018-06-11T11:18:20Z beach: Not at run time.
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2018-06-11T11:34:48Z lukego: recommend a reasonably portable/stable/efficient library for doing asynchronous sockets/timers ("state machine style")? cl-async? iolib?
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2018-06-11T12:19:48Z makomo: hajovonta: a thing that you could do is inject a let into the code that is being EVAL'd
2018-06-11T12:20:29Z makomo: so instead of (eval some-code) you would have (eval `(let (... bindings ...) ,@some-code))) :-D
2018-06-11T12:21:17Z makomo: the same thing applies to COMPILE
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2018-06-11T12:22:08Z hajovonta: the problem is essentially (let ((x 1)) (eval (read-from-string "(setf x 2)")) x)
2018-06-11T12:22:22Z hajovonta: bacuse inside eval, x is undefined
2018-06-11T12:22:47Z makomo: right, so you could embed this let into the code that eval is executing
2018-06-11T12:23:04Z makomo: (eval `(let ((x 1)) ,@(read-from-string "(setf x 2)")))
2018-06-11T12:23:21Z makomo: erm, perhaps without the @
2018-06-11T12:23:54Z hajovonta: right
2018-06-11T12:24:17Z makomo: but yeah, that x is then not visible to the environment that called EVAL in the first place
2018-06-11T12:24:33Z makomo: unless you use dynamic variables
2018-06-11T12:24:43Z hajovonta: yes, and the next time you call eval, you lose the injected values
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2018-06-11T12:25:24Z hajovonta: but, as you say, it works: (defparameter x 1) (eval (read-from-string "(setf x 2)"))
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2018-06-11T12:25:44Z makomo: yup :/
2018-06-11T12:26:14Z makomo: the thing i'll get back to in a few weeks uses something like that
2018-06-11T12:26:25Z makomo: but modifies an object's slots instead of dynamic variables
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2018-06-11T12:26:41Z makomo: since i need to load code at runtime, i don't see another way
2018-06-11T12:27:04Z makomo: actually, it modifies one of the slots, and that slot is hash table that stores variables of the object language (the one i'm implementing)
2018-06-11T12:27:26Z makomo: so that effect is persistent because that hash table is floating somewhere in the lisp image
2018-06-11T12:27:29Z makomo: just like with dynamic variables
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2018-06-11T12:30:08Z makomo: and the reason i want that in the first place is so that the code of the object language can just say "a" to acess the variable "a" of a component within the object language
2018-06-11T12:30:24Z makomo: rather than having to say something like "(gethash 'a (variables *current-object*))" or something
2018-06-11T12:30:50Z makomo: i.e. so it doesn't have to use any implementation details of the object language implementation
2018-06-11T12:31:31Z makomo: so i inject LETs like "(let ((a ...thing with *current-object*...)) ...actual code...)"
2018-06-11T12:32:13Z makomo: now that i think about it, this is for reading the variables only. for setting the variables i should probably use something like a symbol-macrolet
2018-06-11T12:32:32Z makomo: but then it's injecting symbol-macrolets, so either way you're injecting something
2018-06-11T12:33:20Z makomo: i don't know whether there's a "better" way or if we should even be bothered by this way
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2018-06-11T12:47:22Z xificurC: I just got a question from colleagues what does "prog" stand for in progn or prog1, anyone knows?
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2018-06-11T12:48:30Z makomo: "program"? :D
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2018-06-11T12:49:04Z xificurC: that's their guess but it doesn't make its usage much clearer
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2018-06-11T12:50:14Z makomo: perhaps the sequence of forms that you give to prog can be thought of as a "program", i.e. a sequence steps to execute in that particular order
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2018-06-11T12:51:52Z xificurC: which is no different to normal code :) And program usually refers to something bigger, this is just a random block of code grouped together
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2018-06-11T12:53:11Z makomo shrugs
2018-06-11T12:55:17Z xificurC: makomo: I'm not saying you're not right
2018-06-11T12:55:37Z Xach_: at ilc guy steele and someone else made a few jokes about the announcement of PROG back in the day. apparently it was pitched as making it possible to write programs in lisp.
2018-06-11T12:55:54Z Xach_: i'm not sure what historical announcement they referenced.
2018-06-11T12:55:56Z makomo: it was a guess anyway :-)
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2018-06-11T12:59:06Z Xach_: lots of interesting results from googling: "the prog feature" lisp
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2018-06-11T13:02:52Z nowhere_man: Has anyone written a macro that contains a defmacro? I'm really struggling here.
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2018-06-11T13:03:56Z xificurC: `,`,`,`,@
2018-06-11T13:04:25Z makomo: lol
2018-06-11T13:04:26Z makomo: nowhere_man: what's the problem?
2018-06-11T13:05:23Z nowhere_man: Writing the "first-level" macro is very easy: (defmacro {lazy} ((&rest args) &body body) `(make-instance 'lazy-function :fun (lambda ,args ,@body)))
2018-06-11T13:05:43Z shka: nowhere_man: nested quotations are hard to understand
2018-06-11T13:05:46Z nowhere_man: Now I'd like to write several identical macros with the name and class changing
2018-06-11T13:06:07Z nowhere_man: shka: they are straight up mysterious, I've been playing with them for some time now
2018-06-11T13:06:20Z makomo: figuring out how nested backquote works is quite rewarding though
2018-06-11T13:06:33Z xificurC: ((&rest args) &body body) == (args &rest body)
2018-06-11T13:06:57Z nowhere_man: xificurC: nice…
2018-06-11T13:07:49Z nowhere_man: and in this case, I would have liked to understand how I can manage to pass the class as a symbol
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2018-06-11T13:08:40Z nowhere_man: I'd like to do: (make-function-maker {lazy} 'lazy-function)
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2018-06-11T13:10:02Z xificurC: (defmacro uber-lazy (mname class) `(defmacro ,mname (args &body body) `(make-instance ',,class :fun (lambda ,args ,@body))))
2018-06-11T13:10:14Z xificurC: totally written in IRC so 99% not working
2018-06-11T13:10:42Z xificurC: (defmacro uber-lazy (mname class) `(defmacro ,,mname (args &body body) `(make-instance ',,class :fun (lambda ,args ,@body))))
2018-06-11T13:11:15Z nowhere_man: I can make it work when class is required to be a symbol
2018-06-11T13:11:22Z makomo: nowhere_man: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/804#804
2018-06-11T13:11:24Z makomo: how about this
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2018-06-11T13:11:31Z nowhere_man: but not if it can be, e.g. (class-of something)
2018-06-11T13:12:07Z makomo: oh, so you need to get the class at runtime
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2018-06-11T13:13:47Z nowhere_man: I'd like to be able to do both (make-function-maker {lazy} 'lazy-function) and (make-function-maker {other} (class-of something))
2018-06-11T13:14:37Z makomo: and make-instance takes both symbols and classes i guess?
2018-06-11T13:15:03Z makomo: hm indeed it does
2018-06-11T13:15:38Z nowhere_man: It works like this with just class names: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/805#805
2018-06-11T13:16:01Z Bike: (class-of something)? meaning you want to do this at non top level?
2018-06-11T13:16:07Z Bike: stylistically, i'd avoid that
2018-06-11T13:16:34Z makomo: i was just about to ask, wouldn't that require for this defmacro to not be at the top-level
2018-06-11T13:16:48Z nowhere_man: Bike: yeah, maybe that's a useless use case
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2018-06-11T13:17:14Z nowhere_man: I still wonder how to do it :-)
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2018-06-11T13:17:36Z makomo: the one i pasted works for symbols
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2018-06-11T13:18:05Z makomo: also, i'm not sure whether "args" and "body" should be gensym'd
2018-06-11T13:19:32Z Bike: to not do it you just need to not quote "class-name"
2018-06-11T13:19:46Z Bike: which should probably be rename if it's going to be a form instead
2018-06-11T13:20:23Z nowhere_man: Bike: problem is, then when the macro executes, the symbol becomes a variable
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2018-06-11T13:21:04Z Bike: I mean, and you'll have to do (make-function-maker lazy 'lazy-function) instead of just (make-function-maker lazy lazy-function), of course.
2018-06-11T13:21:08Z nowhere_man: becomes a variable in the inner macro, that is
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2018-06-11T13:40:05Z shrdlu68: Has anyone compared clawk with other awk implementations?
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2018-06-11T14:07:07Z pjb: shka: nested quotations are not hard to understand: they're just like parentheses!
2018-06-11T14:07:19Z pjb: ```,,, = (`(`(`,),),)
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2018-06-11T14:09:17Z dim: do I see a 3 commas developper?
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2018-06-11T14:09:36Z dim: http://wiki.c2.com/?ThreeStarProgrammer
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2018-06-11T14:11:13Z jmercouris: dim: that's a new one for me lol, nice link
2018-06-11T14:12:02Z on_ion: pjb: cool
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2018-06-11T14:21:12Z dim: jmercouris: hehe, I kind of like it ;-) (what I remember of it at least)
2018-06-11T14:23:02Z shka: pjb: i kindly disagree
2018-06-11T14:25:50Z makomo: they're only hard to understand when there's @ in them :^)
2018-06-11T14:25:57Z makomo: nested backquotes i mean
2018-06-11T14:26:59Z makomo: the ",,@" in once-only still puzzles me, because i can't seem to get at the observer behavior using the formal definition
2018-06-11T14:27:31Z makomo: the rightmost ",@" splices in some list, and the leftmost "," then evaluates *every* element of the list
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2018-06-11T14:27:55Z makomo: i haven't yet gotten to that conclusion using the formal rules for backquote
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2018-06-11T14:28:05Z makomo: observed*
2018-06-11T14:29:25Z makomo: one of the essential tricks for nested backquotes imo is the ',',',... pattern
2018-06-11T14:30:00Z makomo: and of course understanding on what level the evaluations are done
2018-06-11T14:30:02Z makomo: that's it :D
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2018-06-11T14:34:59Z makomo: hmm, a game/quiz for backquotes would be neat
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2018-06-11T14:38:34Z pjb: makomo: I beg to differ: (let ((l '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) ``(list ,,@l)) #| --> (list* 'list (list (+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4))) |#
2018-06-11T14:38:41Z pjb: there's no evaluation in there.
2018-06-11T14:39:36Z makomo: isn't that evaluating (+ 1 2), etc.?
2018-06-11T14:39:54Z makomo: (+ 1 2) are the elements of the list
2018-06-11T14:40:09Z pjb: What matters, is that the inner , matches the inner `: (let ((out '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) `(let ((in '((/ 3 4) (/ 1 2)))) `(list ,@in ,,@out)))
2018-06-11T14:40:15Z pjb: (let ((out '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) `(let ((in '((/ 3 4) (/ 1 2)))) `(list ,@in ,,@out))) #| --> (let ((in '((/ 3 4) (/ 1 2)))) (list* 'list (append in (list (+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4))))) |#
2018-06-11T14:40:29Z pjb: (eval (let ((out '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) `(let ((in '((/ 3 4) (/ 1 2)))) `(list ,@in ,,@out)))) #| --> (list (/ 3 4) (/ 1 2) 3 -1 12) |#
2018-06-11T14:40:38Z pjb: (eval (eval (let ((out '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) `(let ((in '((/ 3 4) (/ 1 2)))) `(list ,@in ,,@out))))) #| --> (3/4 1/2 3 -1 12) |#
2018-06-11T14:41:09Z pjb: no, it's not evaluating (+ 1 2), since it occurs as is, in the result of `.
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2018-06-11T14:41:34Z pjb: You need eval, or a macro to evaluate the form: (eval (let ((l '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) ``(list ,,@l)) ) #| --> (list 3 -1 12) |#
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2018-06-11T14:41:53Z pjb: and since we have two ``, we need two evals or two macros: (eval  (eval (let ((l '((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) (* 3 4)))) ``(list ,,@l)) )) #| --> (3 -1 12) |#
2018-06-11T14:41:56Z pjb: to get the final result.
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2018-06-11T14:42:47Z jmercouris: I'm trying to remember the word that is used to mark the end of a list
2018-06-11T14:42:55Z jmercouris: for example, if we have a circular singly linked list
2018-06-11T14:43:02Z jmercouris: there is an element you can use to know when you are going to loop over again
2018-06-11T14:43:06Z jmercouris: what is that element called?
2018-06-11T14:43:59Z jmercouris: sentinel
2018-06-11T14:44:01Z jmercouris: there we go
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2018-06-11T14:45:42Z makomo: pjb: isn't what i said true? your list is ((+ 1 2) (- 1 2) ...), and the result of evaluating the doubly nested backquote form twice is '(list 3 -1 12)
2018-06-11T14:45:52Z makomo: the elements have been spliced in *and* evaluated
2018-06-11T14:46:11Z beach: jmercouris: The word is more commonly used to mean a dummy element that is part of the representation of a data structure, but that is not seen by the interface to that data structure.
2018-06-11T14:46:27Z beach: jmercouris: The purpose being to simplify the algorithms on that data structure.
2018-06-11T14:46:59Z beach: jmercouris: For instance, if you represent an empty queue by a single CONS cell, then you remove the special case to test whether the head and the tail pointers are both NIL.
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2018-06-11T14:47:58Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about what the last thing you said, why would we test to see if the head and tail is both NIL? to test for empty queue?
2018-06-11T14:48:07Z pjb: makomo: the evaluation is not done by the comma!
2018-06-11T14:48:11Z beach: jmercouris: Yes.
2018-06-11T14:48:37Z jmercouris: Aha, so in this case, the single cons cell is what we define the sentinel to be
2018-06-11T14:48:44Z beach: Exactly.
2018-06-11T14:48:55Z jmercouris: so we can just check if the cons cell is pointing to nil instead of performing two checks
2018-06-11T14:48:59Z beach: It will not be "seen" by the external interface.
2018-06-11T14:49:12Z pjb: makomo: (let ((e '(+ 1 2)))  `(list ,e)) #| --> (list (+ 1 2)) |#  you see that the comma  evaluates E, but doesn't evaluate the result of E.
2018-06-11T14:49:17Z jmercouris: ok I see, seems I have been using this word incorrectly for a long time
2018-06-11T14:49:25Z beach: jmercouris: You typically check whether the head and the tail point to the same thing in order to determine whether the queue is empty.
2018-06-11T14:49:38Z makomo: pjb: right, because it is a single comma
2018-06-11T14:49:42Z pjb: And if you double the quotes and comma, even less: (let ((e '(+ 1 2)))  ``(list ,,e)) #| --> (list* 'list (list (+ 1 2))) |#
2018-06-11T14:49:54Z jmercouris: beach: Yes, I remember now, thanks for the clarification
2018-06-11T14:50:08Z beach: jmercouris: Anytime.
2018-06-11T14:50:27Z pjb: makomo: again, you need something to evaluate the result of the backquote. Such as a compiler calling a macro and generating the code to evaluate the result of the macro, or an explicit call to eval.
2018-06-11T14:50:29Z makomo: pjb: is the thing on the right supposed to represent a "raw list" or the equivalent form that when evaluated gives the same thing?
2018-06-11T14:50:41Z makomo: on the right of your #| -->
2018-06-11T14:50:52Z pjb: makomo: don't confuse who does what. It's eval, or compile that will set things to evaluate the subexpression (+ 1 2).
2018-06-11T14:51:07Z pjb: makomo: it's the result.
2018-06-11T14:51:25Z makomo: so where does the "list*" symbol come from?
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2018-06-11T14:51:29Z pjb: --> means "evaluates to" or "the evaluation therefof results in"
2018-06-11T14:51:43Z makomo: oh, this is a single evaluation
2018-06-11T14:51:51Z pjb: makomo: it's the implementation dependent expansion of the #\` reader macro
2018-06-11T14:51:51Z makomo: yes, but i meant evaluating it twice
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2018-06-11T14:52:01Z pjb: makomo: ` doesn't evaluate, it reads.
2018-06-11T14:52:05Z makomo: evaluating the doubly backquoted form *twice*
2018-06-11T14:52:09Z makomo: i know, yes
2018-06-11T14:52:15Z makomo: but if you evaluate the thing twice, you'll get what i said
2018-06-11T14:52:32Z makomo: maybe i wasn't very clear on how many times i was thinking of evaluating it
2018-06-11T14:52:35Z pjb: Yes. But it's the evaluating that evaluates, not the backquote or comma.
2018-06-11T14:52:40Z makomo: yes, of course
2018-06-11T14:52:49Z makomo: i never had an issue with that :-)
2018-06-11T14:53:28Z makomo: the thing that's not clear to me, is how to get to that behavior, using the formal rules of backquote described in the spec
2018-06-11T14:53:56Z makomo: so evaluating a doubly nested backquote form with ,,@a in it first splices in the elements of a, and then evaluates all of those elements
2018-06-11T14:54:03Z makomo: the first evaluation splices, the second evaluates the elements
2018-06-11T14:54:24Z makomo: splices the result of evaluation a, more precisely
2018-06-11T14:54:30Z makomo: evaluating*
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2018-06-11T15:19:03Z pjb: makomo: in reality both commas "expand" or substitute the result of expression following the comma.  The only question is where the binding are sought.  And this is where the parenthetical aspect of backquote and comma matters.
2018-06-11T15:20:44Z makomo: the question where the bindings are sought is a simpler problem to me and is easy to understand by analogy either with parentheses as you say, or with "ladders" (the so-called ladder algorithm or whatever it was)
2018-06-11T15:20:50Z makomo: that's not the confusing thing for me
2018-06-11T15:20:54Z pjb: (let ((e '(+ 1 2)) (v (gensym)))   `(let ((,v ,e))   `(list ,',v ,,v ,',e ,,e)))   #| --> (let ((#1=#:g7204 #2=(+ 1 2))) (list* 'list (list* '#1# (list* #1# (list* '#2# (list #2#))))))  #| --> (list #:g7204 3 (+ 1 2) 3) |# |#
2018-06-11T15:21:08Z pjb: ok.
2018-06-11T15:21:13Z pjb: Then all is all right.
2018-06-11T15:21:13Z makomo: the confusing thing for me is what does the left "," do with the expansion of ",@" in ",,@"
2018-06-11T15:21:44Z pjb: makomo: it traverses the first ` it finds on the left.
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2018-06-11T15:22:10Z pjb: Notice in (let ((e '(+ 1 2)) (v (gensym)))   `(let ((,v ,e))   `(list ,',v ,,v ,',e ,,e)))  how we HAVE to use TWO commas to get the V and the E bindings that are in the outer LET.
2018-06-11T15:22:45Z pjb: On the other hand, a single comma is needed in the `(let ((,v ,e)), because there's only one ` to traverse.
2018-06-11T15:23:30Z makomo: that is completely clear to me and that is again the problem of evaluation
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2018-06-11T15:24:03Z makomo: evaluating the doubly backquoted form above twice would yield an error right?
2018-06-11T15:24:08Z makomo: because the gensym isn't bound to anything
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2018-06-11T15:24:33Z makomo: i.e. ,,v would fail after the second evaluation
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2018-06-11T15:25:52Z makomo: pjb: here's an example of ,,@ in the wild, https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/macros.lisp#L61
2018-06-11T15:26:17Z makomo: what once-only does is not important right now, but i do know what it does and how it does it
2018-06-11T15:26:55Z makomo: the problem for me is the ,,@ though
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2018-06-11T15:28:58Z pjb: makomo: it comes from the reference to gensyms andnames-and-forms in that mapcar form.
2018-06-11T15:29:12Z makomo: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
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2018-06-11T15:29:16Z makomo: and this is the formal spec for backquote
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2018-06-11T15:29:20Z pjb: makomo: more interesting a question, is why the lambda body uses ``(,,g ,,(cdr n)) instead of (list g (cdr n))
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2018-06-11T15:29:48Z makomo: using these formal rules i want to get at the observed behavior of ,,@
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2018-06-11T15:31:15Z pjb: makomo: AFAICS, there's no difference between  ``(,,g ,,(cdr n)) and (list g (cdr n)).  It's the programmer loving ` and ,…
2018-06-11T15:31:59Z makomo: hmm
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2018-06-11T15:33:15Z makomo: isn't it there to doubly evaluate the g and the car?
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2018-06-11T15:34:33Z makomo: the result of mapcar is a list of the form '(`(,a1 ,b1) `(,a2, b2) ...) where ai and bi are the results of evaluating g and (cdr n) in the i-th iteration of mapcar
2018-06-11T15:34:47Z makomo: well, without the QUOTE at the beginning
2018-06-11T15:35:50Z makomo: the elements of this list are spliced in front of a commad, meaning that all of these elements will be evaluated in the second evaluation
2018-06-11T15:35:55Z makomo: comma*
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2018-06-11T15:37:06Z pjb: makomo: to see what a reader macro reads something as, you can just type the form at the REPL, prefixed by quote, so that it's not evaluated, but just read.
2018-06-11T15:37:46Z makomo: that doesn't work for me because it pretty prints it
2018-06-11T15:37:57Z makomo: i'm not sure if that's sbcl's or slime's behavior, but i guess it is sbcl's
2018-06-11T15:38:00Z pjb: in ccl, '``(,,g ,,(cdr n)) --> (list* 'list* (list* g (list (list* 'list (list (cdr n))))))
2018-06-11T15:38:02Z makomo: i never look at how to disable the pretty printing
2018-06-11T15:38:10Z makomo: but all i would get are implementation details of sbcl anyway
2018-06-11T15:38:17Z makomo: i want to stay agnostic to the underlying representation
2018-06-11T15:38:29Z pjb: (setf *print-pretty* nil) ; but the printer for ` may do its work even without *print-pretty*.
2018-06-11T15:38:32Z makomo: looked*
2018-06-11T15:38:35Z makomo: let's see
2018-06-11T15:39:05Z makomo: nope, still the same output
2018-06-11T15:39:25Z pjb: yes, so ``,,g is needed, because g contains an expression that when evaluated will return a variable name…
2018-06-11T15:39:41Z makomo: yep
2018-06-11T15:39:49Z makomo: once-only is quite spooky :-)
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2018-06-11T15:40:00Z pjb: indeed.
2018-06-11T15:40:05Z makomo: but still, the main problem for me is the ,,@
2018-06-11T15:40:25Z makomo: these multiple tiers of evaluation are mostly ok
2018-06-11T15:40:40Z pjb: Well, you can say that it evaluate the following expression in the lexical context outside the second ` on the left.
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2018-06-11T15:41:24Z makomo: right
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2018-06-11T15:42:31Z makomo: the inner backquote will be evaluated in the lexical context set up by the outer let
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2018-06-11T15:43:00Z makomo: well, set up by the let of the outer backquote*
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2018-06-11T15:54:43Z beach: Let's say I am using an ideal debugger, and I am stopped at the beginning of the form (f (g a) (h b)).  Can we agree that if I execute a STEP OVER, command, then (g a) will be evaluated, then (h b), then the call to f will be made and I will find myself stopped at the end of the initial form?
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2018-06-11T15:56:41Z beach: Now, if I am again stopped at the beginning of the form (f (g a) (h b)) and I execute the STEP IN command, can we then agree that I will probably find myself stopped at the beginning of the form (g a)?
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2018-06-11T15:58:42Z beach: My question is: Suppose I want the next stopping point to be the beginning of the first form of the function F, where would the current stopping point have to be located, and what is the name of the command that I need to execute?
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2018-06-11T16:01:33Z beach: One possible answer would be: From the initial situation, I would issue a STEP IN command, followed by two step-over, which would take me to the end of the form (h b).  I would then execute another STEP IN.  Since there is no form to step into after (h b), I will instead step into the function F.
2018-06-11T16:03:51Z beach: Another one would be: From the initial situation, I would issue a STEP IN command, followed by two step-over, which would take me to the end of the form (h b).  I would then execute a command that has yet to be defined, say STEP CALL, in order to step into the function F, whereas executing a STEP IN in that situation would step into the form following (f (g a) (h b)).
2018-06-11T16:03:59Z beach: I am sure there are more possibilities.
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2018-06-11T16:40:02Z pjb: beach: about no form after (h b) I would note that I would often like to see the result of the stepped over form before continuing (or possibly retry the stepped over form, stepping in this time).  Therefore I would insert automatically a stopping point just before the call to the function F.
2018-06-11T16:40:15Z pjb: (but of course, only if there are arguments).
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2018-06-11T16:40:28Z beach: Oh, yes, definitely.
2018-06-11T16:40:59Z beach: Either way, there will be a stopping point after (h b).
2018-06-11T16:41:38Z pjb: similarly when you're stepping inside a function, we want a stop point once the result is elaborated and we're ready to return, but before we unwind the scopes of the function, so that we may jump back inside the function to retry something.
2018-06-11T16:42:03Z beach: Absolutely.
2018-06-11T16:42:10Z pjb: Yes, after evaluating each argument.  The thing is that stopping points can be fusionned if there are no evaluations between them.
2018-06-11T16:42:59Z pjb: We stop before and after arguments, before and after the call, before and after the return, etc.  A lot of stopping will be merged.
2018-06-11T16:43:06Z beach: Yes, I have come to that conclusion too.
2018-06-11T16:43:30Z pjb: Perhaps things would be more obvious looking at the binding scopes, when they're established and unwound.
2018-06-11T16:43:54Z beach: Maybe so.  I'll give it some more thought.
2018-06-11T16:43:58Z beach: Thanks for the input.
2018-06-11T16:44:05Z beach: [dinner is imminent]
2018-06-11T16:44:10Z pjb: Bon appetit!
2018-06-11T16:44:19Z beach: Merci!
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2018-06-11T16:53:27Z cgay: So, a different kind of input.
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2018-06-11T17:18:26Z makomo: how can i create a macro with the name being the value of a symbol
2018-06-11T17:18:35Z makomo: its name*
2018-06-11T17:18:51Z makomo: (defmacro <somehow-evaluate-a-symbol> (...) ...)
2018-06-11T17:19:18Z makomo: this might be bad style, but i'm interested how it could be done
2018-06-11T17:19:31Z sjl: the symbol being evaluated at macro expansion time?
2018-06-11T17:19:38Z sjl: macroexpansion of the defmacro
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2018-06-11T17:20:30Z makomo: i guess, yes
2018-06-11T17:21:19Z makomo: or maybe not
2018-06-11T17:21:31Z puchacz: hi, I have a web application in Lisp (hunchentoot etc.). I would like to add a backend server in Java, that would not be accessible in the external world, but my Lisp web application would talk to it. What shall I use please? jfli, lisplets, foil, abcl maybe....?
2018-06-11T17:21:54Z puchacz: I don't want the JNI mess, just socket/text communication
2018-06-11T17:22:02Z makomo: sjl: when the defmacro is expanded, i want it to expand into something that will define a macro with the name being the current value of the symbol i gave it
2018-06-11T17:23:23Z sjl: makomo: can you give an example of the usage you're hoping to get?
2018-06-11T17:24:38Z sjl: (defmacro define-macro-named (symbol &body body) `(defmacro ,(symbol-value symbol) ,@body)) would work if you don't care about lexical bindings
2018-06-11T17:24:47Z makomo: sjl: i'm only playing around with a question that was asked earlier today. https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/806#806
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2018-06-11T17:25:05Z makomo: the inner defmacro will always be named MACRO-NAME currently
2018-06-11T17:27:30Z makomo: sjl: and if i wanted the name to be the result of an expression?
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2018-06-11T17:28:35Z makomo: sjl: for example, (define-macro-named (concatenate 'string "HI" "-THERE") ...)
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2018-06-11T17:28:48Z pjb: makomo: your define-macro-named can evaluate the parameter or not, as it wants.
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2018-06-11T17:29:39Z makomo: hmm
2018-06-11T17:30:35Z pjb: You can have another intermediate macro. But the thing is that the name of the ultimate macro will have to be known at compilation time anyways, so it has to be evaluated in the macro-expansion environment (or in the compilation environment).
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2018-06-11T17:31:08Z pjb: makomo: the point is to know who provides the expression.  In general, it's the macro defining macro that computes the names…
2018-06-11T17:31:41Z makomo: hm, right
2018-06-11T17:31:51Z pjb: (defmacro define-a-bunch-of-macros (parameters) `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (stuff) `(defmacro ,(compute-macro-name stuff) …)) …))
2018-06-11T17:32:15Z makomo: i.e. the expander computes the name for the expansion
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2018-06-11T17:32:34Z makomo: expander being the body of the macro, expansion being whatever the macro returns
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2018-06-11T17:33:25Z makomo: i think i see it now
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2018-06-11T17:34:32Z makomo: i think the error was assuming that my DEFINE-MAKER had to be a macro
2018-06-11T17:34:51Z makomo: i wanted the argument to be evaluated, so it has to be a function instead
2018-06-11T17:34:56Z makomo: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/806#806
2018-06-11T17:35:00Z pjb: If not a macro, I call the functions generate-something.  Those generate functions can be called from macros.
2018-06-11T17:35:13Z makomo: this is the before version. ignore the incorrect (define-maker 'some-class) below
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2018-06-11T17:35:42Z makomo: actually, 'some-class is correct, but DEFINE-MAKER being a macro is not, i think
2018-06-11T17:35:48Z makomo: i wanted 'some-class and (class-of ...) to be evaluated
2018-06-11T17:35:58Z makomo: the perfect way to do that is to make DEFINE-MAKER a function
2018-06-11T17:36:21Z pjb: and call it generate-maker. ;-)
2018-06-11T17:36:41Z makomo: right :-)
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2018-06-11T17:49:45Z makomo: hmm actually no, using a function instead has the same problem
2018-06-11T17:50:05Z makomo: using a macro is correct, but i have to evaluate the arguments within the expander, not the expansion
2018-06-11T17:50:09Z makomo: i think
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2018-06-11T18:00:18Z makomo: pjb: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/807#807
2018-06-11T18:00:29Z makomo: define-maker is fine, and takes a symbol that names the class
2018-06-11T18:00:51Z makomo: but now i want to create generate-maker that takes an expression that evaluates to the name of the class
2018-06-11T18:01:06Z makomo: and then create a macro with the corresponding name
2018-06-11T18:01:31Z makomo: how can i evaluate the expression bound to "name" without having to call EVAL or the like
2018-06-11T18:01:35Z makomo: i don't see a way
2018-06-11T18:02:17Z Bike: you expand into something that evaluates.
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2018-06-11T18:02:43Z makomo: hm, let's see
2018-06-11T18:03:26Z makomo: but it's the same problem again, only within the expansion
2018-06-11T18:03:28Z Bike: for example you'd have (generate-maker (class-of (make-instance 'some-class))) expand into (defmacro whatever (args &body body) (make-instance (class-of (make-instance 'some-class)) :fun (lambda ,args ,@body)))
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2018-06-11T18:03:49Z Bike: sorry, `(make-instance ...)
2018-06-11T18:04:08Z makomo: yes, but i want to determine this "whatever" by evaluating the expression
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2018-06-11T18:04:22Z Bike: Oh. Well then yes you'd need to evaluate.
2018-06-11T18:04:27Z Bike: At least for using defmacro.
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2018-06-11T18:04:38Z makomo: right, for defun i could use symbol-function and setf right?
2018-06-11T18:04:39Z Bike: You could alternately expand into (setf (macro-function whatever) ...)
2018-06-11T18:04:45Z makomo: ahhh
2018-06-11T18:04:47Z makomo: macros have that too
2018-06-11T18:04:49Z makomo: hmm
2018-06-11T18:05:09Z makomo: and i would have to evaluate using EVAL right?
2018-06-11T18:05:47Z makomo: so if macro-function didn't exist, i.e. if there was no way to define a macro other than defmacro (i know it doesn't make much sense do provide such an api, but let's speak hypothetically)
2018-06-11T18:06:01Z makomo: then there would be no other way other than using EVAL within the body of the macro (not the expansion)?
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2018-06-11T18:07:28Z TMA: makomo: well, as defmacro is a macro itself it expands to something that does its shenanigans. that something would be necessarily implementation defined though
2018-06-11T18:08:03Z makomo: true. so there will always be a non-macro way to do it, the only issue being whether it is an implementation detail of the api or not
2018-06-11T18:08:29Z makomo: (setf (macro-function ...) ...) is portable though, right?
2018-06-11T18:09:33Z TMA: in the end you need a special form or a function to do anything.
2018-06-11T18:09:36Z makomo: so if for example CL didn't provide macro-function and the ability to set the macro function, you'd have no portable way of defining macros at run-time, right?
2018-06-11T18:09:41Z pjb: makomo: https://pastebin.com/g40BeRtE
2018-06-11T18:09:46Z makomo: TMA: yeah, i guess
2018-06-11T18:10:14Z beach: Simpler question about debugger interface: suppose you have a sequence of forms to evaluate, like the body of a PROGN or the argument forms of a function call.  Would you prefer to go from the beginning of one expression to the beginning of the next one, or from the end of one expression to the end of the next one?
2018-06-11T18:10:16Z beach: I am asking because as far as the program counter is concerned, the end of one expression is probably the same address as the beginning of the next.  My question is more where you would like to see the cursor each time.
2018-06-11T18:10:19Z pjb: makomo: if you know that macro functions are functions taking two arguments: a form, and an environment, then yes.
2018-06-11T18:10:38Z makomo: pjb: the point is just toying around :-)
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2018-06-11T18:10:57Z beach: My question concerns the STEP OVER command, of course.
2018-06-11T18:11:03Z pjb: beach: well, you need to stop at the beginning, but then it's better to stop at the end of each form to report the results of each form.
2018-06-11T18:11:03Z makomo: pjb: good point about princ, but i intentionally didn't care about that
2018-06-11T18:11:09Z pjb: ok
2018-06-11T18:11:33Z beach: pjb: OK, so you would prefer to go from end to end?
2018-06-11T18:11:36Z pjb: beach: of course, the PC is the same: we just stop between two forms.
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2018-06-11T18:11:59Z beach: pjb: It's not that easy.  They could be physically separated in the source.
2018-06-11T18:12:02Z makomo: pjb: i still don't see how your code solves anything though. you're not calling define-maker anywhere
2018-06-11T18:12:05Z beach: pjb: Hence my question.
2018-06-11T18:12:11Z pjb: "previous form (foo) returned values a;b;c . form (bar) will evaluate next"
2018-06-11T18:12:29Z pjb: or "entering progn. form (foo) will evaluate next"
2018-06-11T18:12:34Z beach: pjb: Er, I am talking about a GUI here.
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2018-06-11T18:12:47Z beach: Which parenthesis would you like to have a red background?
2018-06-11T18:12:54Z TMA: beach: I expect to have the cursor at the beginning of the form about to be evaluated.
2018-06-11T18:12:55Z beach: pjb: The closing one or the opening one?
2018-06-11T18:12:57Z pjb: beach: in a gui, you can display things in different places, you can insert lines, etc.
2018-06-11T18:13:09Z beach: TMA: Thanks.
2018-06-11T18:13:12Z pjb: beach: it's customary to have an indicator (and for breakpoints too) at the beginning of the line.
2018-06-11T18:13:28Z beach: pjb: Yes, and I don't always want that.
2018-06-11T18:13:51Z pjb: So I think the best would be to insert space between the two form to display the indicator or display things.
2018-06-11T18:14:27Z makomo: Bike: so is it true that to achieve what i want i would either have to use EVAL within the macro's body or expand into something like (setf (macro-function ...) ...) as you said?
2018-06-11T18:14:42Z beach: pjb: Of course there is a space between the forms.
2018-06-11T18:14:43Z pjb: Eg. could use a phylactery containing the results of the previous form, and pointing between the two forms.
2018-06-11T18:14:44Z Bike: defmacro doesn't evaluate, so probably yeah.
2018-06-11T18:15:04Z pjb: It would work as well if the two forms are on the same line (eg. arguments) or on different lines (progn).
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2018-06-11T18:15:27Z beach: pjb: But what if one is the condition of an IF and the other is far away (the ELSE branch)?
2018-06-11T18:15:50Z pjb: perhaps with two arrows in this case?
2018-06-11T18:16:22Z TMA: beach: that being said, the form about to be evaluated is ill-specified itself -- is it the innermost form to be evaluated? or the outermost? [say the "next" form is (cons (cdr x) (car x)) ... I don't know in what case I would expect the cursor be: _(cons (cdr x) (car x)) and in which cases (cons (cdr _x) (car x)) ]
2018-06-11T18:16:31Z pjb: Furthermore, the user could want to keep around some phylactery, "pinning" them so the arrows would have to be elastic to let the user move the phylactery around to read what's below.
2018-06-11T18:17:16Z pjb: beach: perhaps you could have a look at Racket. IIRC they have a debugger that does something like this.
2018-06-11T18:17:25Z pjb: Notably to show the backtrace.
2018-06-11T18:17:48Z beach: OK, thanks to both of you.  I'll go back to my couch and think.
2018-06-11T18:19:17Z beach: TMA: I was talking about the STEP OVER command, which does not enter into sub-forms.  In your example, the next form would be the one following (cons (cdr x) (car x)).
2018-06-11T18:19:39Z beach: Anyway, more thinking to do...
2018-06-11T18:20:18Z pjb: On one hand, inserting stuff may be bothering. On the other, displaying windows above the source too.  In any case, if it's automatic, it's better than if it requires manual manipulation…
2018-06-11T18:20:51Z pjb: For good UI design, we have to experiment.
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2018-06-11T18:21:10Z TMA: beach: ok. in step over mode it is definitely the opening parenthesis ... but what is a step over mode? isn't the step-over step-into decision postponed until after some feedback is given to the user?
2018-06-11T18:21:30Z beach: pjb: I don't consider inserting stuff in the kind of window I am talking about.  The user would have to specify "edit" at which point some editor would be executed with the file in question.
2018-06-11T18:21:50Z pjb: beach: some debuggers also have a "finish" command, to continue execution until the end of the current function.
2018-06-11T18:21:53Z beach: TMA: The decision is made by the user in the form of different commands.
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2018-06-11T18:21:57Z pjb: In case of lisp, it could be the end of the current form.
2018-06-11T18:22:19Z beach: pjb: Yes, that's STEP OUT.  I am not asking about that right now.
2018-06-11T18:22:35Z pjb: So: step over, step in, step into, and finish.
2018-06-11T18:22:44Z beach: pjb: I guess so, yes.
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2018-06-11T18:22:55Z beach: Maybe step in and step into are the same.
2018-06-11T18:23:10Z pjb: step in would stop before arguments, step into would stop at the entry of the function.
2018-06-11T18:23:12Z beach: Maybe finish and step out are the same.
2018-06-11T18:23:21Z pjb: But you're right better names should be found.
2018-06-11T18:23:24Z pjb: it's confusing.
2018-06-11T18:23:24Z beach: pjb: Sure, yes, I see.
2018-06-11T18:23:37Z TMA: beach: yes, but in the 'usual' debuggers the selection is only done after the cursor is shown, so you cannot decide where to put it based on the choice the user has not yet made
2018-06-11T18:24:00Z beach: TMA: Correct.
2018-06-11T18:24:08Z MichaelRaskin: Hm, yes, a diifference between going through every subform in the source of the given fnuction, and falling through into the calls is a useful difference
2018-06-11T18:24:34Z TMA: beach: on the other hand, the usual debuggers are concerned only with lines, they do not usually have more precise/granular locations
2018-06-11T18:25:06Z beach: TMA: Yes, that's why I am asking.  If I wanted to be line oriented, I would emulate something like GDB.
2018-06-11T18:25:12Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Yes, indeed.
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2018-06-11T18:25:44Z TMA: and so there is usually no simple way to step into H but not into F or G given (f (g) (h))
2018-06-11T18:25:46Z beach: pjb: I might use the name STEP CALL so that the initial letter is different.
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2018-06-11T18:26:08Z beach: TMA: si so sc
2018-06-11T18:26:09Z pjb: that said, perhaps we don't need to do anything special for the arguments: they're forms like others, so when we're stepping we'll stop in front of them like the others.
2018-06-11T18:26:20Z beach: Step In, Step Over, Step Call.
2018-06-11T18:26:25Z MichaelRaskin: TMA: if you are issuing each step command manually, you can just choose differently when H is evaluated
2018-06-11T18:26:47Z pjb: If we add the stop point at the end of each  form to report result, we get automatically the stop before calling the function after evaluating all the arguments.
2018-06-11T18:26:57Z beach: TMA: SI would go to the beginning of (g), SO to the beginning of (h), SC would step into H.
2018-06-11T18:27:29Z pjb: From the debugger point of view, we could consider that all argument lists are wrapped in a call to list, so step out would be usable during argument evaluation, to stop before the call.
2018-06-11T18:28:20Z beach: I'll write down my conclusions tomorrow and submit them to y'all.
2018-06-11T18:29:11Z pjb: beach: one thing to be cautious about: the function can be determined before, or after (or perhaps more pathologically anywere in between?) the evaluation of the arguments. So the debugger cannot assume the function until it has evaluated all the arguments, if it wants to keep the same idiosyncrasies as the implementation.
2018-06-11T18:29:12Z nirved: what would plain STEP do then?
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2018-06-11T18:29:49Z MichaelRaskin: I guess a thing from classic debuggers that could be useful is selecting a position and saying «do stepping until this becomes the execution position»
2018-06-11T18:30:37Z nirved: usually debuggers have two kind of "step", one for machine code, and another for the higher level mapping
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2018-06-11T18:34:40Z pjb: (defun call (fname argforms env) (let* (fun (args (loop with fp = (random (1+ (length argforms))) for i from 0 for arg in argforms do (when (= i fp) (setf fun (fdefinitione fname env))) collect (evale arg env)))) (funcall fun args)))
2018-06-11T18:34:46Z pjb: conforming.
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2018-06-11T20:17:17Z makomo: beach: i've been thinking about your fcge (first-class global environments) idea and how you can implemement a sandbox with it
2018-06-11T20:18:08Z makomo: and i can't help but wonder why is it the case that so many dynamic languages that have EVAL usually promote the "EVAL is evil" thing
2018-06-11T20:18:24Z makomo: or rather, why don't they provide actual sandboxing functionality to make EVAL useful
2018-06-11T20:18:32Z makomo: so you can use the language itself to implement extensions and what not
2018-06-11T20:18:42Z makomo: why do so many languages skip this sandboxing part and just don't care?
2018-06-11T20:18:52Z makomo: from what i can see, even lisp is guilty of this
2018-06-11T20:19:03Z makomo: what is the point of EVAL if i can't bound its power
2018-06-11T20:19:22Z MichaelRaskin: So, you want Lua-style eval?
2018-06-11T20:19:23Z dlowe: it's not evil, there's just usually better ways than unbounded evaluation of code
2018-06-11T20:19:29Z makomo: (other than using it to EVAL stuff i control myself, rather than some arbitrary user input)
2018-06-11T20:19:36Z Bike: yeah, it's only evil in that it's a blunt instrument.
2018-06-11T20:19:39Z makomo: MichaelRaskin: so Lua supports that?
2018-06-11T20:19:42Z on_ion: lisp does it naturally, ie. macros; custom tailor-made EVAL.
2018-06-11T20:20:05Z MichaelRaskin: makomo: well, you can run something in an altered global environment
2018-06-11T20:20:22Z makomo: i see. are there any other languages that support that?
2018-06-11T20:20:36Z Bike: lisp family languages are the only ones i've seen that even treat environments as manipulable objects (and even then CL's are kind of shit)
2018-06-11T20:21:09Z makomo: dlowe: yes, but sometimes it's just required
2018-06-11T20:21:14Z makomo: on_ion: also ^
2018-06-11T20:21:17Z makomo: i mean, is it not?
2018-06-11T20:21:35Z makomo: even if you did implement your own DSL, you would still have to somehow dynamically compile and evaluate a user-written file
2018-06-11T20:21:39Z MichaelRaskin: Lua is minimalistic enough that whatever it can do with environment manipulation feels approximately as restricted as everything in Lua stdlib
2018-06-11T20:21:49Z makomo: and if this file contains (execute "rm -rf /"), you're screwed again
2018-06-11T20:22:04Z makomo: it boils down to this safety which you cannot control
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2018-06-11T20:22:15Z makomo: you could walk the code and what not, but that's not really a good nor portable solution
2018-06-11T20:23:41Z makomo: MichaelRaskin: interesting. i thought lua might have something like this but i wasn't sure
2018-06-11T20:23:52Z MichaelRaskin: ./theangrygm:post-1470.6fc7a7ec7a82cb9facfe6fb6721b3c4ecb535be5b50f29e5607a0302226c161a65445b0269b1c8e70dfd992ed93418d319ca2f4835d2c12e0828d44521cc7bd2.gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun.html.txt:Between
2018-06-11T20:23:56Z MichaelRaskin: Oops
2018-06-11T20:24:00Z makomo: are there any other languages that support switching out the global environment?
2018-06-11T20:24:09Z MichaelRaskin: You could look at something like Bussard
2018-06-11T20:24:20Z MichaelRaskin: It is a game that uses Lua sandboxing to do… everything
2018-06-11T20:25:25Z makomo: oh cool, i'll take a look
2018-06-11T20:25:34Z makomo: but only lua so far i guess then
2018-06-11T20:25:49Z Bike: beach's global environments aren't a complete sandboxing solution, also.
2018-06-11T20:25:57Z makomo: ah?
2018-06-11T20:26:05Z makomo: what is missing
2018-06-11T20:26:21Z MichaelRaskin: I guess truly standard definitions are still shared
2018-06-11T20:26:29Z Bike: Yeah, that's a problem.
2018-06-11T20:26:31Z MichaelRaskin: Which includes OPEN
2018-06-11T20:26:52Z Bike: For example if you call cl:write, it will refer to special variables, but it'll do that with whatever global environment it was compiled in
2018-06-11T20:27:43Z makomo: what does "truly standard" mean? defined by the common lisp spec?
2018-06-11T20:28:01Z Bike: well it's the same with anything.
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2018-06-11T20:29:46Z makomo: Bike: meaning that if CL:WRITE was compiled in env A and now i'm in B and CL:WRITE is available to me, calling it from B will try to access which env's variables?
2018-06-11T20:30:13Z Bike: A's
2018-06-11T20:30:36Z Bike: i mean, for global bindings
2018-06-11T20:30:40Z makomo: and that would be bad because you couldn't for example rebind dynamic vars in B and have them affect what CL:WRITE would do?
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2018-06-11T20:31:32Z Bike: if you rebind them there's no problem, but if you don't it would use whatever value is global in A
2018-06-11T20:32:43Z makomo: would it also use B's globals if i defvar'd them in B (i.e. not just make a temp dynamic binding, but a global one)?
2018-06-11T20:33:23Z Bike: no. it would use A's globals because it was compiled so.
2018-06-11T20:36:08Z makomo: i haven't yet carefully read beach's paper, so maybe i'm missing something, but i don't get why. so if i'm in B and i do (let ((*something* 10)) (something-compiled-in-A)), something-compiled-in-A will see 10. but if i'm in B and i do (defparameter *something* 10) (something-compiled-in-A) then something-compiled-in-A will see whatever *something* is bound to in A?
2018-06-11T20:36:33Z makomo: or did i misunderstand
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2018-06-11T20:40:35Z Bike: No, that's right.
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2018-06-11T20:43:44Z makomo: Bike: hm, i guess that actually makes sense. so aside from the fact that defvars, defparameters, setfs, etc. might not affect certain functions, is there anything else?
2018-06-11T20:44:24Z Bike: any functions that call environment functions like find-class
2018-06-11T20:44:35Z Bike: so each environment needs its own make-instance, for example
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2018-06-11T20:44:59Z Bike: strictly speaking, any function that signals anything uses the special variable *break-on-signals*
2018-06-11T20:46:44Z makomo: so every environment would need a complete copy of all the functions, global variables, etc. to behave properly?
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2018-06-11T20:48:12Z makomo: so is a sandbox then hopeless or just tricky (but not as tricky as code-walking and similar) to do?
2018-06-11T20:48:41Z Bike: Just kind of annoying.
2018-06-11T20:48:50Z Bike: And this is mostly just the way CL is organized making it difficult.
2018-06-11T20:49:55Z makomo: i see
2018-06-11T20:49:59Z Bike: You could define a standard library where all the functions take a global environment as an explicit argument and use it scrupulously, and then just give each environment wrapper functions that call those with the environment.
2018-06-11T20:51:18Z makomo: oh hmm, so this is something that the implementation would do i guess?
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2018-06-11T20:52:25Z Bike: I suppose.
2018-06-11T20:53:05Z makomo: so not only would the implementation have to support FCGEs, but if you wanted it to be actually usable, it would have to reimplement the whole stdlib to also take these env arguments and then create wrappers that delegate to these
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2018-06-11T20:53:23Z makomo: these -> them*
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2018-06-11T20:54:23Z Bike: i guess alternately they could consult a global environment that's in a dynamic binding, which then has to be bound locally for any calls
2018-06-11T20:54:26Z makomo: that doesn't sound horribly bad, but would still require some work
2018-06-11T20:54:53Z makomo: Bike: hmm, right
2018-06-11T20:55:33Z Bike: Or you could force the sandboxed code to be in a nearly-CL that doesn't have variables like *break-on-signals* and can't use function designators and stuff.
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2018-06-11T20:55:40Z MichaelRaskin: One of the problems with doing sandboxing without full implementation support and without implementing a transpiler from Common Lisp to Common Lisp is that you never know what expanding standard macros can leak
2018-06-11T20:56:03Z makomo: huh yeah
2018-06-11T20:56:28Z makomo: is a sandbox so much to ask for ;_;
2018-06-11T20:57:18Z MichaelRaskin: Well, maybe it is reasonable to do implement a self-transpiler as a Common Lisp macro library.
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2018-06-11T20:58:03Z makomo: MichaelRaskin: what would something like that look like?
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2018-06-11T20:59:31Z MichaelRaskin: Basically, you would have a package where all the Common Lisp stuff is defined, but all the standard macros expand to something pre-vetted.
2018-06-11T21:00:35Z MichaelRaskin: For many things the HyperSpec gives semantically acceptable but inefficient expansions, maybe you should make sure that your macroexpand only gives expansions like this
2018-06-11T21:02:16Z MichaelRaskin: (compilation with optimisations could try making sure the expansions do not leak and using efficient ones whenever it is safe)
2018-06-11T21:03:17Z MichaelRaskin: Once everything is the wrappers you control, you make sure these wrappers also rebind all relevant global variables to use the desired FCGE contents
2018-06-11T21:03:48Z MichaelRaskin: And you make sure you use a reader that thinks this masquerade package is the real :common-lisp
2018-06-11T21:04:34Z makomo: oh, so just making sure that the macros' expansions don't leak then? when you said "self-transpilers as a Common Lisp macro library" i thought you meant something else (but i still don't know what you meant by that, i.e. what is self-transpiling here?)
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2018-06-11T21:05:44Z Bike: for example, on sbcl, defun expands into a call to sb-impl::%defun
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2018-06-11T21:06:01Z Bike: rather than (setf sicl-genv:fdefinition)
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2018-06-11T21:07:18Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you write in Common Lisp a set of functions and macros that allow you to compile Common Lisp (with your preferred environment treatment) to Common Lisp (with only standard-based assumptions, and probably some defacto standard extensions)
2018-06-11T21:09:15Z makomo: mhm
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2018-06-11T21:14:15Z makomo: i guess OS-level sandboxing is always an option
2018-06-11T21:14:44Z makomo: but that's not as convenient
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2018-06-11T21:49:37Z asarch: How would you initialize a slot from a super class slot?
2018-06-11T21:53:16Z phoe: asarch: the slots are named differently, correct?
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2018-06-11T21:53:29Z phoe: if yes, SETF SLOT-VALUE inside INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER
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2018-06-11T21:56:55Z asarch: Thank you phoe
2018-06-11T21:57:00Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-06-11T23:21:13Z pillton: Bike: Would copy on write work to solve the sharing of objects across environments?
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2018-06-11T23:22:12Z Bike: if you had some ability to copy a function but change one of its constants, i guess
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2018-06-11T23:32:54Z pillton: Is it not a good idea to maintain a link between the lexical variable and the current global environment in situations like (let ((x 1)) (defun example () (incf x)))?
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2018-06-12T00:16:10Z Bike: i don't understand
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2018-06-12T00:19:24Z ealfonso: how does a recursive macro work, is it dynamically expanded at runtime? I wrote a macro to retry an arbitrary form up to n times, retrying in case of a condition signalled. the problem is that n is not known at compile time
2018-06-12T00:19:48Z Bike: a macro can expand into an invocation of itself
2018-06-12T00:19:58Z Bike: if that's what you mean
2018-06-12T00:20:12Z Bike: i don't know why you'd need or want that for your retro macro though
2018-06-12T00:20:15Z makomo: ealfonso: why would you use a macro for that anyway?
2018-06-12T00:20:45Z ealfonso: makomo what other option do I have without turning form into a function
2018-06-12T00:20:51Z makomo: i mean, why would you do the retrying in the expander rather than the expansion
2018-06-12T00:20:58Z makomo: if i understood correctly what you're saying
2018-06-12T00:21:54Z ealfonso: so currently I wrote a macro using loop, so it's not a recursive macro. the problem is that I'm storing the result into a variable, and forms that return multiple values don't seem to work correctly
2018-06-12T00:22:17Z makomo: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/edit#
2018-06-12T00:22:19Z Bike: (defun retrying (n thunk) (tagbody loop (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (go loop)))) (funcall thunk))))
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2018-06-12T00:22:24Z Bike: what do you mean they don't work correctly?
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2018-06-12T00:22:41Z Bike: i guess (return-from retrying (funcall thunk))
2018-06-12T00:23:25Z ealfonso: Bike I guess I was trying to avoid turning thunk into a function
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2018-06-12T00:23:41Z Bike: it's pretty similar as a macro
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2018-06-12T00:24:33Z makomo: just interpolate the body in the place of the funcall
2018-06-12T00:24:44Z ealfonso: yeah
2018-06-12T00:24:55Z makomo: erm Bike, where do you use your n?
2018-06-12T00:25:02Z Bike: i don't because i forgot
2018-06-12T00:25:05Z makomo: :-D
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2018-06-12T00:35:07Z makomo: something like this? https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/809#809
2018-06-12T00:35:15Z makomo: it might be overly complicated, this is a first try
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2018-06-12T00:36:36Z makomo: i guess it would be nice if the result of the body is returned
2018-06-12T00:36:44Z makomo: that's probably the point
2018-06-12T00:36:51Z Bike: (return-from out (progn ,@body)), that much is easy
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2018-06-12T00:37:08Z Bike: establishing a bunch of blocks, including one named NIL, aorund arbitrary code is kind of bad though
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2018-06-12T00:37:42Z makomo: hm good point
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2018-06-12T00:38:46Z makomo: Bike: because the blocks don't use gensym'd names, or because it's just complicated/bad style?
2018-06-12T00:38:48Z makomo: or both?
2018-06-12T00:38:52Z Bike: the former
2018-06-12T00:39:00Z makomo: aha
2018-06-12T00:39:22Z Bike: also i guess it can just use handler case
2018-06-12T00:39:38Z makomo: and regarding the NIL block, what about that one
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2018-06-12T00:39:43Z Bike: the dotimes
2018-06-12T00:39:56Z makomo: yeah, but you can't "fix" it without removing dotimes right?
2018-06-12T00:40:03Z Bike: pretty much.
2018-06-12T00:40:20Z ealfonso: i'm trying this, https://pastebin.com/B68fQy5P => "return for unknown block: #:|loop-tag823|"
2018-06-12T00:40:30Z makomo: Bike: (loop) sets up a NIL block too right?
2018-06-12T00:40:34Z Bike: it does
2018-06-12T00:40:35Z ealfonso: I'm not too familiar with tags and blocks
2018-06-12T00:40:41Z Bike: ealfonso: tagbody is different from block
2018-06-12T00:41:17Z makomo: Bike: so what stndard looping construct is there that doesn't establish a NIL block? is there one even?
2018-06-12T00:41:23Z makomo: standard*
2018-06-12T00:41:26Z Bike: you can do "loop named"
2018-06-12T00:41:47Z makomo: hm?
2018-06-12T00:42:10Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/06_aga.htm
2018-06-12T00:42:21Z makomo: oh wow
2018-06-12T00:42:24Z makomo: now that's neat
2018-06-12T00:42:32Z makomo: i thought loop was doomed too
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2018-06-12T00:45:50Z makomo: so perhaps this one https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/811#811
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2018-06-12T00:46:19Z makomo: should be :for i :from 0 :below n
2018-06-12T00:46:24Z ealfonso: but tagbody returns nil...
2018-06-12T00:46:37Z Bike: that's why you return-from
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2018-06-12T00:48:00Z makomo: returning the result of the body: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/812#812
2018-06-12T00:48:48Z makomo: oh err, i guess that let is unnecessary
2018-06-12T00:49:06Z Bike: you don't need the block ,out either, you can just name the loop ,out.
2018-06-12T00:50:05Z makomo: Bike: then i lose the ability to differentiate between exceeding and succeeding though, no?
2018-06-12T00:50:19Z makomo: i mean, currently i don't differentiate via the return value in any way, only in "Exceeding" being printed
2018-06-12T00:50:29Z Bike: you could put a finally block
2018-06-12T00:51:29Z makomo: is the finally clause run after an exit from the loop's block?
2018-06-12T00:51:55Z makomo: no i suppose?
2018-06-12T00:52:01Z Bike: shouldn't be
2018-06-12T00:52:04Z makomo: mhm
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2018-06-12T00:53:48Z makomo: so, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/814#814
2018-06-12T00:55:07Z makomo: can return-from return multiple values?
2018-06-12T00:55:29Z makomo: oh it can indeed
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2018-06-12T00:58:15Z makomo: using multiple values: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/815#815
2018-06-12T01:00:29Z ealfonso: thanks Bike makomo . I wanted to try it myself, and was only missing the (return-from ) and the named loop tag. https://pastebin.com/g3B3bidW
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2018-06-12T01:01:14Z makomo: no problem, this was a fun exercise :-)
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2018-06-12T01:55:33Z skidd0: Hello all. Quick question regarding packages and systems with asdf and quicklisp coming up.
2018-06-12T01:56:19Z skidd0: I have a package.lisp that exports two classes from my project.lisp along with a project.asd that defines the project's system
2018-06-12T01:56:42Z skidd0: that all works fine. I can (ql:quickload :project) in a REPL without errors
2018-06-12T01:57:45Z skidd0: but, when i try to then (make-instance 'class-in-project), i get an error that says the class symbol doesn't exist in common-lisp-user
2018-06-12T01:58:09Z skidd0: so then i tried to (in-package :project) in the repl
2018-06-12T01:58:25Z skidd0: and then tried to make the class instance again.
2018-06-12T01:58:31Z skidd0: same error
2018-06-12T01:59:33Z skidd0: do i need to qualify my class symbols?
2018-06-12T01:59:54Z skidd0: (make-instance project:class-in-project) ?
2018-06-12T02:01:59Z skidd0: turns out, yes, yes i do
2018-06-12T02:02:16Z skidd0: is there a way to not need the qualifier?
2018-06-12T02:07:12Z Xach_: skidd0: yes.
2018-06-12T02:07:25Z skidd0: good
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2018-06-12T02:08:07Z Xach_: you can make it accessible without a prefix via importing or inheritance.
2018-06-12T02:08:30Z Xach_: inheritance is done with use-package or :use in defpackage (it must be external in the source package)
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2018-06-12T02:08:43Z skidd0: oh use-package okay
2018-06-12T02:08:47Z Xach_: import is done with import or :import-from or :shadowing-import-from in defpackage
2018-06-12T02:08:55Z skidd0: right gotcha
2018-06-12T02:09:05Z Xach_: use-package isn't something you'd use normally - it's more typical to use defpackage to set things up.
2018-06-12T02:09:26Z skidd0: so for REPL, slime like development, what is the common way?
2018-06-12T02:09:33Z skidd0: defpackage with use or import
2018-06-12T02:10:26Z Xach_: defpackage
2018-06-12T02:10:30Z Xach_: with use
2018-06-12T02:10:52Z Xach_: or use prefixes
2018-06-12T02:10:56Z Xach_: import is also ok
2018-06-12T02:11:03Z skidd0: but that then means i get ALL the symbols of the package, right?
2018-06-12T02:11:13Z Xach_: no. import works on only one symbol.
2018-06-12T02:11:16Z skidd0: import negates that risk
2018-06-12T02:11:22Z skidd0: i was talking about :use
2018-06-12T02:11:30Z skidd0: just not typing fast enough
2018-06-12T02:11:33Z Xach_: oh, use makes all external symbols accessible
2018-06-12T02:11:42Z Xach_: not all present symbols
2018-06-12T02:11:42Z skidd0: and import is specific choices
2018-06-12T02:11:49Z skidd0: oh right
2018-06-12T02:11:53Z skidd0: only exported
2018-06-12T02:12:09Z skidd0: and :: can get around that, but if you're using :: it's usually not a good thing
2018-06-12T02:12:18Z skidd0: right?
2018-06-12T02:12:35Z Xach_: yes. but import has a bit of an issue where it doesn't matter if it's external. in theory you should import only external things. i'd like an import-if-external or something sometimes.
2018-06-12T02:12:54Z Xach_: :: means if it breaks you can't complain too much
2018-06-12T02:12:55Z Colleen: Unknown command. Possible matches: 8, time, set, say, mop, get, login, grant, tell, roll,
2018-06-12T02:13:03Z Xach_: bad bot
2018-06-12T02:13:18Z skidd0: oh Colleen! i saw that library on cliki and was interested
2018-06-12T02:13:21Z skidd0: that's cool to see
2018-06-12T02:13:45Z skidd0: and, i suppose, not a surprise for this channel
2018-06-12T02:13:58Z skidd0: :roll
2018-06-12T02:14:14Z skidd0: ::roll
2018-06-12T02:14:14Z Colleen: 1d6: 3
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2018-06-12T02:16:32Z simplegauss_: is there a standard way to create callable objects or (equivalently) add some annotation to a function object so that it can still be called by funcall?
2018-06-12T02:17:20Z Xach_: simplegauss_: there's a mop thing called funcallable-standard-instance or similar
2018-06-12T02:17:27Z Xach_: I don't know how it works, sorry.
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2018-06-12T02:18:51Z simplegauss_: i've actually seen that, but i don't think that's standard, and moreover have no idea how it works (as in I can use it, but I have no understanding of the link between funcall and MOP).
2018-06-12T02:18:58Z simplegauss_: here is a working example: https://clos-mop.hexstreamsoft.com/concepts/#funcallable-instances
2018-06-12T02:19:17Z Bike: mop funcallable-standard-object
2018-06-12T02:19:17Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-funcallable-standard-object.html
2018-06-12T02:19:33Z Bike: it's not standard, but any implementation worth its weight in salt supports it
2018-06-12T02:19:38Z Bike: And they don't weigh very much
2018-06-12T02:19:44Z Xach_: is this like on stack overflow where you post a question and the answer back to back
2018-06-12T02:19:51Z simplegauss_: is there a specification for how funcall actually works in the standard? my main reference is the hyperspec and as far as I can tell it makes no mention of anything to do with the mop
2018-06-12T02:20:07Z Bike: It doesn't for this particular thing, but MOP specifies it
2018-06-12T02:20:09Z simplegauss_: Xach_: it isn't the solution I want :)
2018-06-12T02:20:13Z Xach_: simplegauss_: you can't make an object funcallable without using the mop.
2018-06-12T02:20:22Z Bike: why isn't it the solution you want?
2018-06-12T02:20:45Z Xach_: it's mop, it's mop, it's mop, it's not the spec <guitar riff>
2018-06-12T02:20:50Z pillton: simplegauss_: https://hastebin.com/wodavigupe.lisp
2018-06-12T02:20:53Z Bike: Well this update dependent stuff is totally irrelevant
2018-06-12T02:21:27Z simplegauss_: Bike: i wanted something closer to the standard. i guess it doesn't really matter in practice, but it makes me uneasy that I don't have an understanding of how it works.
2018-06-12T02:21:54Z Bike: you need the mop, but thankfully the mop is reasonably well specified
2018-06-12T02:22:16Z simplegauss_: is there a free way to learn about MOP? something like the hyperspec? it seems AMOP is only available for purchase
2018-06-12T02:22:36Z Bike: The thing I linked has the specification chapters
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2018-06-12T02:22:37Z Xach_: the spec chapters are on line for free
2018-06-12T02:22:43Z Bike: But it's probably a bit thin to read by itself
2018-06-12T02:22:55Z Xach_: one way to not use the mop is to stop wanting to make objects funcallable
2018-06-12T02:23:02Z Xach_: sometimes that is easiest
2018-06-12T02:23:18Z Bike: I don't think there's really a resource other than AMOP
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2018-06-12T02:24:43Z simplegauss_: Xach_: true :) really all i would need is a generic "funcall" that works on functions and on objects inheriting from a certain class, but that seems uglier and more invasive than using the existing MOP solution.
2018-06-12T02:24:58Z Bike: well, that's pretty much what mop does
2018-06-12T02:25:10Z Bike: the "certain class" is funcallable-standard-object
2018-06-12T02:25:28Z Bike: it's not an actual generic function, if that's what you wanted
2018-06-12T02:25:31Z pillton: simplegauss_: Are you binding these "functions" to names in the global environment?
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2018-06-12T02:26:24Z simplegauss_: pillton: nope
2018-06-12T02:27:41Z simplegauss_: Bike: what i'm confused about is, for example, I can't find in the spec you linked how funcall is modified, and this is the sort of thing i'd like to understand. do you know if that sort of info is in AMOP? if so I can try and get it from the library
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2018-06-12T02:28:21Z Bike: funcall isn't modified, exactly
2018-06-12T02:28:39Z Bike: it's just specified that if you try to call a funcallable-standard-object, it calls that object's funcallable-instance-function instead
2018-06-12T02:28:51Z Bike: not just from funcall either, also stuff like apply
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2018-06-12T02:30:48Z simplegauss_: Bike: but the point is I can't make a "funcallable-simplegauss-object" that doesn't inherit from "funcallable-standard-object" but still works with funcall/apply, right? it just seems like a weird special case in the design.
2018-06-12T02:31:08Z Bike: why would you not want it to inherit from that?
2018-06-12T02:31:38Z simplegauss_: or rather not inherit, but use as a metaclass
2018-06-12T02:32:11Z Bike: you need the metaclass because the objects have an additional semi-slot for the function, which is reflected in the class
2018-06-12T02:33:08Z Bike: in the standard you can't define objects that aren't instances of standard-object, or classes that aren't subclasses of standard-class, just by design
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2018-06-12T02:36:10Z simplegauss_: so historically CLOS came before and separately from the MOP infrastructure, or they were created concurrently but only certain parts made it into the standard?
2018-06-12T02:36:43Z Bike: mm, sorta both. the standard recommends MOP in a few places.
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2018-06-12T02:42:21Z simplegauss_: Bike, Xach_: thanks for the help!
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2018-06-12T02:45:31Z simplegauss_: more generally, i have a (mostly academic) interest in the tradeoffs of polymorphism the CLOS/MOP vs typeclass (pioneered by Haskell) way. it seems that in practice the only deficiency of CLOS is return-type dispatch (which would be quite difficult in lisp :))
2018-06-12T02:46:08Z Bike: yeah, that doesn't make sense with the lisp type system.
2018-06-12T02:46:43Z Bike: generic function calls will also involve a runtime dispatch cost that i believe haskell can avoid.
2018-06-12T02:47:45Z simplegauss_: I guess there's also the ML modules way, but that seems just a few macros away :)
2018-06-12T02:48:41Z simplegauss_: i bet you could even do modular implicits somewhat easily.
2018-06-12T02:48:47Z simplegauss_: Bike: you might be interested in https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function
2018-06-12T02:48:54Z Bike: i am aware of it.
2018-06-12T02:49:09Z simplegauss_: yet another reason i want to understand MOP :)
2018-06-12T02:49:33Z Bike: amop is the best source.
2018-06-12T02:49:53Z Bike: the basic idea is that it implements CLOS using itself, and exposes some of the generic functions therefore involved.
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2018-06-12T02:58:16Z ealfonso: let's say I want to split a single-package containing some utils into a utils and a 'core' file. defs in the 'core' file depend on defs made in util. do I need to put (defpackage ) in util?
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2018-06-12T02:59:19Z pillton: Most people define packages in packages.lisp and use in-package inside other files.
2018-06-12T02:59:52Z ealfonso: pillton makes sense. thanks
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2018-06-12T03:32:03Z rpg: ealfonso: Often handy to put defclass, defmacro, defvar, defparameter forms in decls.lisp, which depends on package.lisp and then have everything depend on decls
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2018-06-12T05:03:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-12T05:37:14Z emaczen: how exactly does CFFI work?
2018-06-12T05:40:57Z jack_rabbit: emaczen, in what way?
2018-06-12T05:45:06Z emaczen: How does Lisp know about C objects/functions?
2018-06-12T05:45:14Z emaczen: C structures etc...
2018-06-12T05:45:44Z emaczen: usually we use define-foreign-library which loads the shared library
2018-06-12T05:45:58Z emaczen: What exactly happens when we load the shared library?
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2018-06-12T05:56:38Z jack_rabbit: shared libraries have certain calling conventions. All the lisp has to do is adhere to those and it's all good.
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2018-06-12T05:57:12Z jack_rabbit: The functions and objects exposed by the library are made visible through an API.
2018-06-12T05:57:25Z jack_rabbit: provided by the host system.
2018-06-12T05:57:35Z jack_rabbit: or possibly by reading the file itself.
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2018-06-12T08:42:45Z White_Flame: so I'm trying to join #lispweb and it says "Cannot join channel (+r) - you need to be identified with services", yet I am identified. Is freenode still having problems?
2018-06-12T08:43:18Z White_Flame: in any case, are there any examples of using hunchensockets with sec-websocket-protocol?
2018-06-12T08:43:46Z White_Flame: the code in the implementation looks like an unexposed hack, but without being documented as such
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2018-06-12T12:17:43Z rumbler31: what is sec-websocket-protocol
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2018-06-12T12:30:43Z xificurC: http://ix.io/1d5U/lisp  - cli-arglist works fine when called in the REPL but the macroexpansion produces (&key). I guess that's because '(...) gets into clidef as (quote '(...)). What would be the solution? I am quoting the clidef because I want to be able to do `(:options (,@common-options (special #\s "special option" :flag)))
2018-06-12T12:34:15Z xificurC: I often have this issue, I have a list that I want to be able to build at runtime and use that list in a macro. If I leave out the quoting then I cannot write lisp code, I just turned that piece into pure data. If I put a quote there I don't know how to use that piece of code in a function call - ,(func arg) where arg went in as '(1 2 3) and now is
2018-06-12T12:34:15Z xificurC:  ''(1 2 3). Is it OK to just do ,(func (cadr arg)) ?
2018-06-12T12:35:12Z White_Flame: rumbler31: it's a websocket option to tell the server which user protocol you want to use inside your messages
2018-06-12T12:36:51Z xificurC: it seems hacky to do (cadr ''(foo bar)) to get to (foo bar)
2018-06-12T12:38:01Z TMA: xificurC: the quoting style you use seems very strange
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2018-06-12T12:38:17Z Xach_: xificurC: macros are for transforming source code, not runtime lists.
2018-06-12T12:39:12Z White_Flame: in order to deal with runtime data, macros should output code to handle runtime data
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2018-06-12T12:39:39Z xificurC: and looking at the sample code what code would that be?
2018-06-12T12:39:54Z White_Flame: depends on what you want done with it
2018-06-12T12:40:23Z White_Flame: for instance, if you're trying to do a mapcar on a runtime list, you don't have that list at compile-time; you need to generate the mapcar code that will take the runtime list
2018-06-12T12:41:28Z xificurC: White_Flame: but the result is supposed to be used in a defun for arglist
2018-06-12T12:41:52Z White_Flame: well, you can issue a defun at runtime
2018-06-12T12:42:01Z xificurC: White_Flame: so eval
2018-06-12T12:42:09Z xificurC: ?
2018-06-12T12:42:38Z White_Flame: yeah, since defun is a macro itself
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2018-06-12T12:43:05Z White_Flame: just make sure you're truly needing dynamic runtime code generation
2018-06-12T12:43:11Z xificurC: TMA: what do you mean by strange? Do macros never take quoted arguments?
2018-06-12T12:43:58Z White_Flame: macros rarely take quoted arguments
2018-06-12T12:44:24Z White_Flame: usually it's just passthrough stuff for body; they pretty much never are written to destructure into quoted fields
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2018-06-12T12:47:00Z xificurC: White_Flame: I would hope not :) I'm building a library for handling command line. What I pasted is a piece of the puzzle. Basically I want to write '(:name "foo" :args ((file ...)) :description "makes some foo" :options ((down #\d ...) (create #\c ...)) to get a function (lambda (file &key down create) ...) that will be able to handle a command li
2018-06-12T12:47:00Z xificurC: ne invocation: foo -c --down x.txt
2018-06-12T12:47:48Z White_Flame: take the quote off '(:args, for one
2018-06-12T12:48:04Z White_Flame: you're passing in a data structure, not an evaluated form
2018-06-12T12:48:58Z White_Flame: you need to extract lambdas out of there so that they do get evaluated, though
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2018-06-12T12:49:45Z xificurC: White_Flame: ok, if I take the quote off, how do I (defcli foo) and (defcli bar) both sharing (defparameter *common-options* '((help #\h "prints this help" ...) (verbose #\v "prints debugging information to stderr" ...)))
2018-06-12T12:50:59Z White_Flame: the very first thing you need to do is figure out what your generated code should be
2018-06-12T12:51:08Z White_Flame: and then work backwards from there
2018-06-12T12:51:46Z White_Flame: you also need to ensure that your defparameter value is available at compile-time
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2018-06-12T13:15:04Z xificurC: compile time is a moving target when the compiler is available at runtime :) a defun in a library will be AOT compiled and a defun at a lisp file will be JIT compiled
2018-06-12T13:22:05Z xificurC: I'm doing something similar to this https://github.com/fare/command-line-arguments , just wanted to avoid the replication of the options (he writes check, verbose, warn ... twice) and skip the creation of a +command-line-spec+
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2018-06-12T13:24:20Z nowhere_man: xificurC: there isn't a difference between library and lisp file…
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2018-06-12T13:25:44Z xificurC: nowhere_man: I meant (load "x.lisp") and (load "x.fasl"). A library loaded with asdf will be precompiled into a fasl, isn't that right?
2018-06-12T13:26:30Z LdBeth: nowhere_man (IRC): the might refer to foreign library
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2018-06-12T13:27:32Z beach: Here is my latest suggestion with respect to the stepping commands of a good debugger: http://metamodular.com/stepping.pdf
2018-06-12T13:27:39Z LdBeth: xificurC: fasl could be native machine instruction representation
2018-06-12T13:28:33Z xificurC: LdBeth: why would that matter. I was talking about handing a lisp file or a fasl to e.g. sbcl
2018-06-12T13:30:34Z LdBeth: xificurC: sbcl just use native machine code in fasl
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2018-06-12T13:31:20Z LdBeth: Which means, you can’t use a AMD64 sbcl fasl on ARM
2018-06-12T13:32:00Z xificurC: LdBeth: how does that relate to my point? I was saying compile time is a moving target. Think eval-when
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2018-06-12T13:34:36Z LdBeth: Yes, your main point is right. Just few details.
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2018-06-12T13:36:11Z xificurC: LdBeth: I see. thanks
2018-06-12T13:36:27Z phoe: beach: 5.2.1 - the debuggers I know behave as "step over" in that case. If you cannot step into an instruction, you step over it.
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2018-06-12T13:36:48Z phoe: Your debugger may behave differently, though - *especially* if it informs the user that the instruction at point cannot be stepped into.
2018-06-12T13:36:58Z phoe: I'd actually like it that way.
2018-06-12T13:37:47Z LdBeth: xificurC: if you’re still stuck with '(...) thing, I think you can use `,(form ...)
2018-06-12T13:37:52Z beach: phoe: In that situation, step over also has no effect.  So it does behave like step over.
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2018-06-12T13:40:03Z xificurC: White_Flame: here's a simplified piece of generated code i need - http://ix.io/1d6h/lisp . Think of that being e.g. in a (setf (symbol-function 'foo) snippet-here). The problem that is still baffling me is how to design the macro to take the data that defines the API (the '(:args ... :options ...) part) in a way it can be reused between different i
2018-06-12T13:40:03Z xificurC: nvocations of the macro
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2018-06-12T13:40:39Z xificurC: as with the *common-options* example
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2018-06-12T13:49:00Z White_Flame: (defvar *shared* '(:key val)) is in the same format as what (mymacro (:key val)) receives
2018-06-12T13:49:36Z xificurC: White_Flame: is that a question or a hint
2018-06-12T13:49:40Z White_Flame: and if there isn't a defun in there, then your expansion isn't complete
2018-06-12T13:49:58Z White_Flame: it's a statement.  There's no difference in format between lists that a macro sees, and lists that are stored in variables
2018-06-12T13:50:16Z White_Flame: the quote is needed when things are being evaluated, but it's still just a list
2018-06-12T13:50:56Z White_Flame: but still, you need to finish your expansion to include the defun
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2018-06-12T13:51:12Z xificurC: White_Flame: there's no defun, as I wrote the expansion should have been (setf (symbol-function 'foo) :snippet-here)
2018-06-12T13:51:33Z White_Flame: why setf symbol-function?
2018-06-12T13:51:57Z xificurC: White_Flame: (mymacro (key val)) is different to (myfunction (key val)) though, that's the point.
2018-06-12T13:51:59Z xificurC: brb
2018-06-12T13:52:26Z White_Flame: sure.  (mymacro (key val)) vs (myfunction '(key val)) if you want to interchanget hem
2018-06-12T13:53:45Z White_Flame: or with (defmacro mymacro (paramlist) `(myfunction ,paramlist)), you can use (mymacro list-var) vs (mymacro '(key val)).  It's your call
2018-06-12T13:54:12Z White_Flame: but if you have parameters that need to be evaluated, then you can't evaluate them at compile-time
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2018-06-12T14:11:40Z xificurC: White_Flame: those examples are fine, I used them, but I'm stunned here because I'm trying to pass in code and use it as code in one spot and as data in another one
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2018-06-12T14:12:07Z White_Flame: well, i dont' know what build-cli actually does
2018-06-12T14:12:17Z xificurC: White_Flame: as you said if you do `(func ,val) then val can be '(a b c) or (defparameter *x* '(a b c)) and then just *x*
2018-06-12T14:13:04Z xificurC: but if I pass e.g. '(a b c) I need to call ,(func val)
2018-06-12T14:13:09Z White_Flame: one big issue is that build-cli is being called at runtime and is getting passed source code for lambda functions
2018-06-12T14:13:28Z xificurC: and that basically becomes (func ''(1 2 3))
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2018-06-12T14:13:54Z White_Flame: it needs to be `(:options ( ... ,(lambda ...))) if that is used in runtime
2018-06-12T14:14:12Z White_Flame: if it's used in compile-time, then you can simply walk the structure and place the lambda clauses where they need to go
2018-06-12T14:14:29Z White_Flame: in the format you curretnly have
2018-06-12T14:14:43Z xificurC: White_Flame: yes I have it as `(... ,(lambda ...)) right now
2018-06-12T14:15:02Z White_Flame: and that would make it non-portable to walk the structure at compile-time
2018-06-12T14:15:13Z White_Flame: because the backquote hasn't been evaluated
2018-06-12T14:15:44Z White_Flame: your first format was better
2018-06-12T14:15:46Z xificurC: the problem is that clidef in the macro invocation becomes '`(... ,(lambda ...))
2018-06-12T14:16:04Z White_Flame: then get rid of the quote!
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2018-06-12T14:16:17Z White_Flame: but stlil, with the backquote, your macro can't really do anything with walking it
2018-06-12T14:16:26Z White_Flame: so I would not use the backquoted version
2018-06-12T14:16:35Z xificurC: White_Flame: I will if you tell me how to use it as *code*
2018-06-12T14:16:39Z xificurC: :)
2018-06-12T14:16:42Z White_Flame: it's souce
2018-06-12T14:16:44Z White_Flame: source
2018-06-12T14:16:46Z White_Flame: that's what you have to work with
2018-06-12T14:16:55Z White_Flame: I'm not sure build-cli should be running at runtime
2018-06-12T14:17:03Z White_Flame: but I don't know what it does
2018-06-12T14:17:16Z xificurC: walks argv and returns a list of options and arguments left
2018-06-12T14:17:22Z White_Flame: I think at compile-time, you should walk the list structure and generate code for the clauses it encounters
2018-06-12T14:17:39Z xificurC: ah no, build cli just builds a struct
2018-06-12T14:18:02Z White_Flame: or build-cli should be returning source code to be used in your macro
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2018-06-12T14:20:19Z White_Flame: but even with what you curretnly have, it doesn't work with (defcli dockerfile-generate (:args ...)), with (apply #'build-cli ',clidef) inside defcli?
2018-06-12T14:20:51Z White_Flame: ah, no, because you still have the lambda problem, and the lambdas need to be pulled out at compile time
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2018-06-12T14:36:19Z xificurC: White_Flame: yes, only eval or cadr solves that
2018-06-12T14:36:33Z White_Flame: you need to better separate compile-tiem vs runtime
2018-06-12T14:36:51Z White_Flame: there's no barrier to do what you want; the fact that you've written so much to be runtime instead of compiletime is constraining you
2018-06-12T14:37:14Z xificurC: actually I'm giving up on the macro because the function I want to generate I might want to use with other arguments than what comes from argv, right
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2018-06-12T14:37:47Z xificurC: White_Flame: I want to do as much at compile time as possible
2018-06-12T14:38:31Z White_Flame: build-cli doesn't reflect that in its current state
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2018-06-12T14:39:10Z xificurC: White_Flame: why
2018-06-12T14:39:20Z White_Flame: because it's called at runtime, with runtim edata
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2018-06-12T14:39:30Z White_Flame: and that's where all the magic seems to happen
2018-06-12T14:40:11Z xificurC: White_Flame: because '(:args ((file)) :options ((down #\d ".." :flag) (create #\c ".." :flag))) *is* runtime data
2018-06-12T14:40:25Z White_Flame: are you sure?
2018-06-12T14:40:42Z White_Flame: can it just be a literal at compile-time?
2018-06-12T14:40:52Z White_Flame: right now it doesn't rely on any evaluation
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2018-06-12T14:41:46Z White_Flame: of course, it could simply be a stated requirement that it can be dynamically generated, which would force you to handle it at runtime
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2018-06-12T14:42:29Z xificurC: White_Flame: I don't see how can it be compile time constant if I want it to be composed
2018-06-12T14:42:56Z xificurC: `(:args (,@docker-args another-arg) :options (,@*common-options* ...))
2018-06-12T14:43:08Z White_Flame: right, that's what I meant
2018-06-12T14:43:23Z White_Flame: so if you want a function whose arguments are extracted from that, it must be EVAL'd up at runtime
2018-06-12T14:43:42Z xificurC: the purpose of code is to automate tasks. I don't want to copy-paste common arguments all over the place :)
2018-06-12T14:44:22Z White_Flame: a macro can simply add &allow-other-keys to your defuns, and pass those through to the common handler
2018-06-12T14:44:29Z xificurC: White_Flame: yes, or cadr'd. I wonder how much does that scream *hack*
2018-06-12T14:44:37Z White_Flame: or inject whatever "common argument" needs to your defun statements
2018-06-12T14:44:39Z xificurC: (cadr ''a)
2018-06-12T14:44:44Z xificurC: vs. (eval ''a)
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2018-06-12T14:45:28Z White_Flame: I would say never do that
2018-06-12T14:45:36Z White_Flame: it just doesn't make sense
2018-06-12T14:45:43Z White_Flame: the quote shouldn't be there if you're dealing with that
2018-06-12T14:45:51Z White_Flame: it's runtime, so the macro never sees the quote literally
2018-06-12T14:45:57Z White_Flame: ie, there is no macro in that case
2018-06-12T14:47:13Z xificurC: White_Flame: I just don't see how to not have the quote there if I want it to be runtime composable
2018-06-12T14:47:20Z White_Flame: if it's runtime, dont' use a macro
2018-06-12T14:47:37Z xificurC: in which case as you said I would need to eval to get the lambda arguments
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2018-06-12T14:48:03Z White_Flame: a function in that sense would do exactly the same as a macro in your broken case
2018-06-12T14:48:10Z White_Flame: it takes a spec, generates source code, and evaluates
2018-06-12T14:48:23Z White_Flame: a macro takes a spec, generates source code, and returns it to the current evaluator
2018-06-12T14:48:51Z White_Flame: so if you're fully runtime, there's no reason to use a macro here
2018-06-12T14:49:08Z xificurC: ah ok, you're saying I could change the macro to be a function that calls eval
2018-06-12T14:49:34Z xificurC: but if I cadr I don't eval and am using a macro :D   lisp is strange
2018-06-12T14:50:03Z xificurC: White_Flame: thank you
2018-06-12T14:50:11Z White_Flame: you have to eval in order to create your defuns
2018-06-12T14:50:22Z xificurC: not if I cadr!
2018-06-12T14:50:24Z White_Flame: I have no idea what you're getting at with the cadr cases, or ''a
2018-06-12T14:50:35Z White_Flame: cadr does not create functions
2018-06-12T14:50:43Z White_Flame: cadr does not evaluate
2018-06-12T14:50:46Z White_Flame: I don't know what you're referring to here
2018-06-12T14:50:59Z White_Flame: fundamentally, you want to call DEFUN
2018-06-12T14:51:00Z Bike: is there code or something here
2018-06-12T14:51:33Z xificurC: http://ix.io/1d5U/lisp didn't work. If you replace ,(cli-arglist def) with ,(cli-arglist (eval def)) it works. If you replace it with ,(cli-arglist (cadr def)) it works too
2018-06-12T14:52:35Z xificurC: I am saying (eval ''(1 2 3)) returns the same as (cadr ''(1 2 3))
2018-06-12T14:52:44Z White_Flame: basically, he has runtime code to handle the spec list, but he also wants compile-time code to create a DEFUN whose arguments are defined by teh spec.  The spec must be runtime-evaluated, as it might not be lieteral
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2018-06-12T14:53:08Z White_Flame: xificurC: that doesnt' help you actually execute a DEFUN or instantiate a lambda
2018-06-12T14:53:10Z Bike: Oh. Gross.
2018-06-12T14:53:29Z Bike: xificurC: CADR won't work if you use a backquote form instead of a quote form.
2018-06-12T14:53:41Z Inline: you are closing a let over a lambda there
2018-06-12T14:53:43Z Inline: hmmm
2018-06-12T14:54:00Z xificurC: Bike: (cadr ``(1 2 3)) works here the same way
2018-06-12T14:54:09Z Bike: But it won't for something more complex.
2018-06-12T14:54:24Z White_Flame: xificurC: none of that is relevant to your problem
2018-06-12T14:54:27Z Inline: your macro returns a closure
2018-06-12T14:54:40Z Bike: (car '`(1 ,@a 2)) => undefined
2018-06-12T14:54:45Z Bike: The fact you don't understand why is worrying
2018-06-12T14:55:13Z xificurC: Bike: I understand, don't worry
2018-06-12T14:56:16Z Bike: CADR will only work if it's a quote form. If it will always be a quote forom, you should just not have it be quoted instead.
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2018-06-12T14:58:56Z xificurC: Bike: yes I understand
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2018-06-12T15:00:20Z xificurC: I'll just avoid the macro for now and have 2 steps - defining the spec and defining a function. Then there can be a helper function that parses the argv based on the spec and hands it over to the function
2018-06-12T15:01:00Z xificurC: and the function will stand on its own so it can be called and tested outside of an "argv context"
2018-06-12T15:01:07Z Bike: that's good.
2018-06-12T15:02:32Z White_Flame: that was my suggestion, so yeah
2018-06-12T15:02:40Z White_Flame: no macro needed
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2018-06-12T15:02:43Z shka: i agree with the above
2018-06-12T15:02:56Z shka: so 3 thumbs up
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2018-06-12T15:03:02Z shka: :-)
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2018-06-12T15:03:45Z shka: xificurC: TLDR functions > macros
2018-06-12T15:04:02Z White_Flame: and no (cadr ''(spec...)) junk required
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2018-06-12T15:07:54Z xificurC: I saw the repetition in the spec and the lambda list and thought of macros
2018-06-12T15:09:34Z Xach_: Since macros don't evaluate their arguments like functions do, you can't use function-style tricks for reducing repetition.
2018-06-12T15:09:54Z Xach_: I see people try to shortcut specifying slots in defclass that way
2018-06-12T15:10:01Z Xach_: And same with macros like cl-who
2018-06-12T15:10:21Z Xach_: You have to work within the evaluation rules, or wrap them in things that expand into what you want instead.
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2018-06-12T15:13:57Z xificurC: Xach_: the problem was I didn't realize that I'm trying to reduce repetition across 2 different times, run- and compile-. Novice lisper
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2018-06-12T15:18:17Z xificurC: FYI I will release this code at some point so more criticism will be more than welcomed
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2018-06-12T16:07:12Z serichsen: Good evening
2018-06-12T16:07:23Z beach: Hello serichsen.
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2018-06-12T16:11:34Z jmercouris: is there a way to loop through the elements of a simple bit vector?
2018-06-12T16:11:46Z jmercouris: I tried to do something like (loop for i in #*0110110001101111 do ...) but it complains
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2018-06-12T16:12:18Z on_ion: perhaps one may need to convert it ? or use map?
2018-06-12T16:13:05Z sjl: jmercouris: IN is for lists, ACROSS is for vectors
2018-06-12T16:13:12Z sjl: (loop :for i :across #*010101 :do (print i))
2018-06-12T16:13:19Z jmercouris: sjl: Ah, handy fact! Thank you!
2018-06-12T16:13:33Z jmercouris: I wonder why that is
2018-06-12T16:13:35Z sjl: all vectors, not just bit vectors, but it'll work with bit vectors fine
2018-06-12T16:13:37Z on_ion: ahh good ole loop
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2018-06-12T16:14:23Z sjl: it's so lisp knows the kind of iteration you need at compile time, instead of having to have both code paths available and only one used at runtime
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2018-06-12T16:15:09Z on_ion: ahh
2018-06-12T16:15:29Z pjb: if you can have either or both, use map.
2018-06-12T16:15:45Z pjb: (map 'list 'list '(a b c) "abc" #(1 2 3)) #| --> ((a #\a 1) (b #\b 2) (c #\c 3)) |#
2018-06-12T16:15:46Z sjl: otherwise every IN would have to support both walking lists by CDR, and walking arrays with an index variable
2018-06-12T16:15:55Z pjb: (map 'vector 'list '(a b c) "abc" #(1 2 3)) #| --> #((a #\a 1) (b #\b 2) (c #\c 3)) |#
2018-06-12T16:16:03Z sjl: or use iterate and write your own IN-WHATEVER that handles both cases, like me
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2018-06-12T16:26:50Z on_ion: pjb why map?
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2018-06-12T16:29:21Z shka: on_ion: works on lists and vectors
2018-06-12T16:29:59Z on_ion: oh. but what sjl said is good though, to know one path at runtime
2018-06-12T16:30:48Z shka: yes
2018-06-12T16:30:56Z shka: but to quote pjb
2018-06-12T16:30:58Z shka: [18:15] <pjb> if you can have either or both, use map.
2018-06-12T16:31:05Z shka: so i explained why
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2018-06-12T16:35:46Z on_ion: ah hmm
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2018-06-12T18:47:10Z skapata: mi revenis
2018-06-12T18:47:12Z skapata: ta da
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2018-06-12T19:00:25Z makomo: beach: found a typo in http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf, "that the extension* incurs"
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2018-06-12T20:54:14Z beach: makomo: Thanks.  But that paper has been published, so it can't be altered now.
2018-06-12T20:59:10Z dxtr: Hmm, when I try to inspect an object in slime with C-c I I get: illegal sharp macro character: #\<
2018-06-12T20:59:16Z dxtr: How come?
2018-06-12T20:59:54Z Xach: dxtr: how did you input the object to inspect?
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2018-06-12T21:00:11Z Xach: dxtr: since it's read and evaluated, you can't type/yank #<OBJECT foo>
2018-06-12T21:00:30Z dxtr: I just realized I am inserting expressions here
2018-06-12T21:00:36Z Xach: dxtr: When I want to inspect such an object, I make sure it's the most recent repl result and then inspect "*"
2018-06-12T21:00:43Z dxtr: Oh neat
2018-06-12T21:00:46Z dxtr: I can do that?
2018-06-12T21:00:50Z Xach: NO! Only me
2018-06-12T21:00:55Z Xach: Well, you can probably do it too.
2018-06-12T21:01:15Z dxtr: I actually had a brain fart because it didn't dawn on me that I'm inserting expressions
2018-06-12T21:01:28Z dxtr: But that last thing you mentioned is really helpful in either case
2018-06-12T21:01:40Z dxtr: You get two high-fives for that!
2018-06-12T21:02:03Z ealfonso: I need to make 1000 http requests. can I do them in parallel with drakma?
2018-06-12T21:02:20Z dxtr: Just create a thousand threads
2018-06-12T21:02:42Z Xach: ealfonso: not by itself. you would need something to parallelize it. i like lparallel but raw threads would work too.
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2018-06-12T21:04:30Z dxtr: Xach: Speaking of parallelization; my company (Well.. I. I'm the only one coding lisp here) used your s3 library for quite a while and it was pretty heavily parallelized!
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2018-06-12T21:05:23Z Xach: dxtr: so glad to hear it! i wish i had time to add to it but things have been pretty busy
2018-06-12T21:07:59Z dxtr: It's quite funny because it was actually intended to be a one-off thing - which is why I made it in lisp in the first place (Because no one else would be able to maintain it otherwise) - but it ended up being run quite heavily and it worked really well
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2018-06-12T21:09:12Z dxtr: It has served its purpose now, though, so we're not using it anymore. It involved synchronizing around 150k images downloaded via HTTP, normalizing file names and stuff and uploading it to our s3 bucket. Saved us quite a bit of labor.
2018-06-12T21:09:40Z dxtr: Just wanted to give you some positive feedback :)
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2018-06-12T21:12:19Z Xach: Thanks! Always nice to hear when something works
2018-06-12T21:16:57Z ealfonso: can I use loop to split a list of 1000s of items into n-sized chunks?
2018-06-12T21:17:08Z ealfonso: to iterate over chunks?
2018-06-12T21:17:58Z ealfonso: I guess I could use "by"?
2018-06-12T21:18:54Z Xach: I can't think of a terse, built-in way to do it.
2018-06-12T21:18:55Z ealfonso: is there something like (nthcdr n ...) that I can combine with loop's "by" without creating a function?
2018-06-12T21:20:02Z phoe: ealfonso: not really, BY requires an one-argument function
2018-06-12T21:20:21Z phoe: you could theoretically (alexandria:compose #'cddddr #'cddddr #'cddddr) but that might not be the way
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2018-06-12T21:25:34Z PuercoPop: ealfonso: you could use for := clauses and (subseq xs 10)  to 'move forward'
2018-06-12T21:26:32Z dxtr: ealfonso: Is it maybe better to split it up into n chunks?
2018-06-12T21:27:38Z shka_: serapeum has batches function that does that
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2018-06-12T21:36:46Z pjb: (loop for start on big-list by (lambda (x) (nthcdr n x)) while start collect (subseq start 0 (min (length start) n)))
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2018-06-12T21:38:01Z pjb: it's simple to write, but it's not efficient.
2018-06-12T21:39:09Z pjb: you could add a variable: (loop for l = (length big-list) :then (- l n) for start on big-list by (lambda (x) (nthcdr n x)) while start collect (subseq start 0 (min l n))) ; but it would still read the big-list twice.
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2018-06-12T21:42:05Z pjb: personnally, I just write: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:group-by big-sequence n)
2018-06-12T21:42:09Z pjb: Way simplier…
2018-06-12T21:42:32Z dxtr: That package name
2018-06-12T21:42:39Z shka_: :)
2018-06-12T21:43:07Z rumbler31: is it less words?
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2018-06-12T21:43:29Z shka_: it is almost like symbolic gesture
2018-06-12T21:43:32Z pjb: Well, of course I lie. I write (group-by big-sequence n)
2018-06-12T21:43:51Z pjb: But if I tell you that you will come again, "and where does group-by come from?" etc…
2018-06-12T21:43:55Z shka_: "I really want local package nicknames"
2018-06-12T21:44:13Z pjb: At least with the big package name you know where it comes from!
2018-06-12T21:44:19Z shka_: true
2018-06-12T21:44:55Z shka_: though common-lisp.cesarum seems to redundant
2018-06-12T21:45:04Z shka_: or at least common-lisp
2018-06-12T21:45:22Z pjb: It tells that its written in pure common-lisp, and not specifically for sbcl or clisp.
2018-06-12T21:45:51Z shka_: anyway, goodnight
2018-06-12T21:45:54Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/
2018-06-12T21:46:08Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/doc/hierarchical-package-index.html
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2018-06-12T21:50:43Z shka_: pjb: ok, makes sense
2018-06-12T21:51:19Z shka_: sadly, common lisp package system is suboptimal :/
2018-06-12T21:51:38Z pjb: Yep, but there's nothing better. So it's still the best.
2018-06-12T21:52:28Z shka_: eh, i guess
2018-06-12T21:52:30Z dxtr: How is it suboptimal? I have no complaints
2018-06-12T21:52:33Z shka_: good night
2018-06-12T21:53:05Z pjb: dxtr: it uses a global namespace. In the Internet age, were you get systems from anywhere, you can easily have package name collisions.
2018-06-12T21:53:16Z shka_: dxtr: i would prefer to use com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.* for instance
2018-06-12T21:53:17Z pjb: (if you don't use the reversed domain name convention).
2018-06-12T21:53:47Z shka_: more like com.informatimago.common-lisp.* but you get the idea
2018-06-12T21:53:49Z shka_: it is flat
2018-06-12T21:53:58Z dxtr: shrug
2018-06-12T21:54:04Z shka_: also, local nicknames are not standard
2018-06-12T21:54:05Z pjb: Local package name systems have been defined and implemented, but there are variants, and it's not integrated in all implementations yet.
2018-06-12T21:54:09Z dxtr: That's a non-issue in my opinion
2018-06-12T21:54:44Z aeth: There are several issues with the package system. (1) No portable local package nicknames and it's very easy for nicknames to conflict. (2) You will wind up with a million exports for any decently sized program, and the verbosity of it seems very unlispy. (3) There's no easy way to check for unused imports or nonexistent exports because of the dynamic nature of it.
2018-06-12T21:54:55Z pjb: hacve a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp.relative-package
2018-06-12T21:55:10Z aeth: (2b) That verbose million exports thing could easily also apply to imports, which is why most imports are just used with :USE instead of :IMPORT-FROM
2018-06-12T21:55:37Z pjb: it's a choice. You can easily define a lot of small package with very few exports.
2018-06-12T21:55:47Z pjb: But it's more work.
2018-06-12T21:56:06Z aeth: pjb: I do one package per file to keep the exports down and I *still* sometimes wind up with dozens of exports for a moderately sized (400-800ish) file
2018-06-12T21:56:10Z shka_: anyway, i really think that packages in lisp could be waaaaaaaaay better
2018-06-12T21:56:15Z aeth: s/400-800ish/400-800ish line/
2018-06-12T21:56:22Z shka_: but it is what it is
2018-06-12T21:56:52Z shka_: maybe someday
2018-06-12T21:56:56Z shka_: but i doubt
2018-06-12T21:57:05Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/161143c74c456393a28ccb8618d86dd42444eaf7/math/matrix.lisp#L16-61
2018-06-12T21:57:16Z copec: What package systems do you like shka_ ?
2018-06-12T21:57:27Z aeth: I can probably cut 20 of those exports, though.
2018-06-12T21:57:44Z dxtr: I buy the package nickname/alias argument and the unused checking. The rest is like.. If you need that many imports and exports you need that many imports and exports
2018-06-12T21:59:02Z dxtr: I think smaller packages is the solution. It's not that much work :)
2018-06-12T21:59:15Z shka_: copec: i don't understand why would you be interested on my preferences ;-)
2018-06-12T21:59:29Z aeth: Actually, you don't. Most of the time when you get tons of exports it's because of struct or CLOS object accessors. If you're okay with forcing the user to use with-foo-accessors (a specific version of with-accessors) you can do something like this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/161143c74c456393a28ccb8618d86dd42444eaf7/util/util.lisp#L263-292
2018-06-12T22:00:06Z aeth: The only imperfection there is that it doesn't check that it's a valid accessor first. I went for simplicity of definition/implementation, at least for now
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2018-06-12T22:00:41Z copec: shka_ I assume you know more than I and I would like to compare/contrast package systems
2018-06-12T22:01:01Z shka_: copec: sorry to disappoint you ;-)
2018-06-12T22:01:11Z shka_: aeth: i have something like this as well
2018-06-12T22:01:13Z aeth: (with-foobar-accessors ((foo foo) (bar bar) (baz baz)) foobar ...) ; 1 export instead of 3. adds up if you have tons of structs and CLOS objects all over the place
2018-06-12T22:01:36Z aeth: Except it's really 2 exports because I also have (with-foobar-accessors* (foo (bar* bar) baz) foobar ...)
2018-06-12T22:01:43Z aeth: Kill verbosity.
2018-06-12T22:02:14Z shka_: aeth: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/cl-data-structures/blob/e5b8bf35f906790be83b3ca99f3de1a60ce5fa3f/src/utils/macros.lisp#L299
2018-06-12T22:02:32Z shka_: but i did this somewhat differently
2018-06-12T22:02:36Z aeth: Oh and my macro system supports prefixes, too. If you want safety, use one prefix for public accessors. The prefix is implicity added.
2018-06-12T22:03:17Z shka_: (defmethod ((symbol (eql 'something))) is very useful in macros like this
2018-06-12T22:03:24Z shka_: anyway, goodnight
2018-06-12T22:04:02Z aeth: In case I was unclear, the accessors could be foobar-foo, foobar-bar, and foobar-baz, and the syntax would be identical in my examples above.
2018-06-12T22:04:27Z aeth: So it's not just for simpler imports/exports. I also use it internally within the same package to eliminate prefixes.
2018-06-12T22:05:07Z aeth: So I'm not sure I need to support some kind of safety to prevent people from using accessors they're not supposed to when the prefix system could work perfectly fine for that.
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2018-06-12T22:18:41Z ealfonso: for the chunking issue, I used my own macro, even though sub-chunk elements are reversed https://pastebin.com/gpduRSqD
2018-06-12T22:19:17Z dxtr: Hmm, can I remove functions in slime?
2018-06-12T22:19:25Z dxtr: or sbcl rather
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2018-06-12T22:19:36Z ealfonso: (loop-do-chunked chunk '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7)  3 (format t "chunk is ~A~%" chunk)) => chunk is (3 2 1) chunk is (6 5 4) chunk is (7)
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2018-06-12T22:20:17Z ealfonso: dxtr are you looking for fmakunbound?
2018-06-12T22:20:43Z dxtr: Possibly. I just want to remove a function because I accidentally made it a defun when I wanted it as a defmethod
2018-06-12T22:20:48Z dxtr: And now it won't let me redefine it
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2018-06-12T22:24:39Z Xach: fmakunbound is the thing
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2018-06-12T23:10:12Z dxtr: also, this is quite interesting. I'm running cl-dbi to use a sqlite3 database
2018-06-12T23:10:35Z dxtr: And when I try to prepare a statement it says my table doesn't exist - although I can select from it from the cli
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2018-06-12T23:18:07Z dxtr: One good idea is to use the correct filenames
2018-06-12T23:18:14Z dxtr: That made all the difference
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2018-06-12T23:24:11Z pjb: aeth: you can always define your own package, exporting only the one symbol you want.
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2018-06-12T23:24:32Z pjb: (defpackage "MINE" (:import-from "CL" "CAR") (:export "CAR"))
2018-06-12T23:24:49Z pjb: So now you have a a package named "MINE" that exports only one accessor.
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2018-06-12T23:25:22Z pjb: (let ((k (cons nil nil)))  (setf (mine:car  k) 42)  k) #| --> (42) |#
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2018-06-12T23:26:50Z pjb: Notice how you can thus define as many packages as you want, as different interfaces for different clients.
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2018-06-12T23:46:54Z dxtr: It's not possible to see if a &rest argument wasn't passed or was passed nil, right?
2018-06-12T23:47:46Z Bike: those are the same thing, no?
2018-06-12T23:48:05Z dxtr: That's what I figured :)
2018-06-12T23:48:15Z Bike: i mean i'm not sure what you want to distinguish here
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2018-06-12T23:49:38Z dxtr: Well, what I'm making a sort-of wrapper around some cl-dbi functions and I've defined my execute like (defun execute (conn query &rest parameters)) - but that fails with prepared statements that is supposed to have zero parameters
2018-06-12T23:49:48Z dxtr: Because parameters is nil
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2018-06-12T23:50:22Z Bike: yeah, that means the call was like (execute *connection* my-query)
2018-06-12T23:50:26Z dxtr: But I can't just do (if parameters (dbi:execute ... parameters) (dbi:execute ...)) because I don't know if parameters actually is nil
2018-06-12T23:50:40Z Bike: it sounds like you might want apply
2018-06-12T23:51:30Z dxtr: Haha, that's literally what I did because I changed it so parameters is a list
2018-06-12T23:51:42Z dxtr: But, yeah, turns out it works without lists too
2018-06-12T23:53:32Z dxtr: Hmm
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2018-06-12T23:53:56Z dxtr: Duh
2018-06-12T23:54:00Z dxtr: &rest is a list
2018-06-12T23:54:02Z on_ion: param eaters
2018-06-12T23:54:18Z dxtr: It's too late for this
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2018-06-12T23:54:50Z dxtr: Well then that solves that
2018-06-12T23:54:57Z dxtr: Thanks, Bike!
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2018-06-12T23:59:16Z on_ion: sketchy
2018-06-12T23:59:39Z shangul: oh wow!
2018-06-12T23:59:50Z shangul: they were all from matrix.org
2018-06-12T23:59:51Z on_ion: [m] ... suspicious
2018-06-12T23:59:53Z on_ion: ohhh =)
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2018-06-13T00:00:54Z shangul: Okay this means matrix and LISP have a close relation!
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2018-06-13T03:13:38Z ealfonso: I heard that hunchentoot sessions are not really secure... "Hunchentoot makes some reasonable effort to prevent eavesdroppers from hijacking sessions (see below), but this should not be considered really secure. Don't store sensitive data in sessions and rely solely on the session mechanism as a safeguard against malicious users who want to get at this data!" is there an easy way to make them secure?
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2018-06-13T03:27:55Z pillton: Aren't all session mechanisms insecure in some way or another?
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2018-06-13T04:17:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-13T04:18:13Z vtomole: Morning!
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2018-06-13T04:26:25Z ealfonso: this has probably been discussed before. but... will lisp ever become mainstream?
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2018-06-13T04:27:06Z beach: ealfonso: Not the way the world (industry and academia) is structured today.
2018-06-13T04:27:26Z beach: ealfonso: The good thing is that it doesn't matter to us whether it is or not.
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2018-06-13T04:29:54Z pillton: Probably not, mainly because communities write language run-times that don't compose.
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2018-06-13T04:44:12Z vtomole: Is there a "duplicatesp" that checks if a list contains duplicates. I only see remove-duplicates and delete-duplicates from clhs so far.
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2018-06-13T04:46:13Z beach: I don't think so.
2018-06-13T04:47:06Z vtomole: Aha! I finally found a procedure that "Makes sense" to be in cl-user but it's not ;)
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2018-06-13T04:53:54Z beach: vtomole: Check whether Alexandria has it, and if not, contribute it.
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2018-06-13T04:57:21Z vtomole: Good idea.
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2018-06-13T04:58:27Z vtomole: I forgot that Alexandria is kind of like the "procedures that would be nice to have in cl-user" library.
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2018-06-13T05:26:20Z makomo: morning
2018-06-13T05:26:31Z makomo: beach: i see, so not even the version of github?
2018-06-13T05:26:33Z makomo: on*
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2018-06-13T05:52:12Z ealfonso: when I start a repl in slime, how I switch to a package and load some sexps in that package? I've tried (swank:set-package "...") (swank-repl::in-package "..."), but it doesn't seem to work the first time
2018-06-13T05:53:49Z mathZ: How about (in-package :Foo) ?
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2018-06-13T05:57:48Z ealfonso: mathZ I get "var is unbound" for a defvar'd var in package A after (in-package "A")
2018-06-13T05:57:57Z ealfonso: the 2nd time it seems to work
2018-06-13T05:59:10Z ealfonso: also, how is it possible that I'm getting a "function is undefined" for a function I declared as an (:import-from package function) ?
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2018-06-13T06:01:35Z beach: It probably wasn't defined in `package'.
2018-06-13T06:01:47Z beach: ealfonso: You don't import and export functions in Common Lisp, just symbols.
2018-06-13T06:02:35Z beach: ealfonso: How about you show some code.
2018-06-13T06:03:47Z ealfonso: beach 1. you're right, I forgot the (in-package ...) at the top of the file
2018-06-13T06:03:49Z ealfonso: beach I know, it just happens that the symbol is of a function
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2018-06-13T06:06:23Z beach: ealfonso: I always put (cl:in-package ...) on top of files, because you never know what the current package is when you load or compile them.
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2018-06-13T06:07:57Z theemacsshibe[m]: are there any matrix(.org) bindings for common lisp?
2018-06-13T06:08:10Z ealfonso: yes, I forgot to do that
2018-06-13T06:08:11Z ealfonso: this is the sexp I'm using to load my project on a new repl. the "start" and "make-config" functions are defined in one of my packages: (progn (load "my-project.asd") (ql:quickload "my-project") (in-package "my-project") (start (make-config :port 4242)))
2018-06-13T06:08:17Z theemacsshibe[m]: now it's not the thing with numbers in it
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2018-06-13T06:08:48Z theemacsshibe[m]: it's the thing that lets normies like me use IRC with slightly more features
2018-06-13T06:09:18Z beach: ealfonso: You should probably not LOAD the ASDF file, but instead make sure ASDF finds it on your system.
2018-06-13T06:09:40Z ealfonso: the first time, I get COMMON-LISP-USER:make-config is not defined
2018-06-13T06:09:40Z ealfonso: the second time it works... I'm wondering if there's a way for it to work the first time
2018-06-13T06:11:26Z ealfonso: beach I feel that even if I did that, the first time the my-package:my-symbol symbols would still be interpreted as being in COMMON-LISP-USER at first in the slime repl
2018-06-13T06:11:26Z ealfonso: but I will definitely try that
2018-06-13T06:11:26Z beach: ealfonso: When that entire form is read, you are still in the cl-user package.
2018-06-13T06:12:05Z beach: ealfonso: so any symbol without a package prefix is going to be interned in the cl-user package, including make-config.
2018-06-13T06:12:05Z beach:  
2018-06-13T06:12:15Z beach: ealfonso: Since there is no such function, you get the error.
2018-06-13T06:12:49Z ealfonso: beach yeah. but if I prefix those symbols with my project, I think I get a read error since the package hasn't been loaded
2018-06-13T06:12:53Z beach: ealfonso: Plus, you can't really give it a package prefix, because that package does not exist when the form is read either.
2018-06-13T06:12:58Z beach: Correct.
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2018-06-13T06:14:39Z ealfonso: so I guess have to live with manually running the form twice. or running two different forms
2018-06-13T06:15:43Z beach: Well, there are kludges around it.
2018-06-13T06:17:51Z beach: Instead of (make-config ...) you can do (funcall (find-symbol "MAKE-CONFIG" "MY-PROJECT") ...)
2018-06-13T06:18:01Z beach: Same with START I guess.
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2018-06-13T06:21:23Z ealfonso: theemacsshibe[m] (sorry I have no idea what that is)
2018-06-13T06:21:33Z ealfonso: beach thanks... yeah
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2018-06-13T06:26:59Z ealfonso: beach thanks, that did do what I wanted
2018-06-13T06:27:21Z beach: Sure, no problem.
2018-06-13T06:27:22Z ealfonso: beach it was annoying to have to wait at the repl for one sexp to finish loading only to enter another one
2018-06-13T06:28:31Z beach: I understand.
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2018-06-13T06:34:44Z kuribas: Hi, I installed sbcl in linux.  Where can I find the full documentation?
2018-06-13T06:35:05Z beach: kuribas: If you are new to Common Lisp, you probably want to start with the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-06-13T06:35:11Z beach: clhs 1
2018-06-13T06:35:11Z specbot: Introduction: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_.htm
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2018-06-13T06:35:30Z kuribas: beach: I have done scheme and emacs lisp
2018-06-13T06:36:03Z beach: Otherwise, if you are looking for the SBCL manual, it is here: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/
2018-06-13T06:36:33Z kuribas: does it include standard common lisp functions?
2018-06-13T06:37:08Z beach: No, the SBCL manual contains SBCL-specific stuff.
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2018-06-13T06:37:17Z beach: So for standard features, you need the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-06-13T06:37:27Z kuribas: can I find it somewhere?  Preferably in info format
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2018-06-13T06:38:17Z beach: You can download the Common Lisp HyperSpec from the site I showed you, but not in info format.
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2018-06-13T06:38:42Z kuribas: ok, I found it
2018-06-13T06:38:45Z beach: But there is an Emacs library that accesses the Common Lisp HyperSpec and shows it in an Emacs buffer.
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2018-06-13T06:41:11Z ealfonso: beach which one is that?
2018-06-13T06:41:38Z beach: I forget, sorry.  I don't need the Common Lisp HyperSpec so much these days, so I haven't bothered installing it.
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2018-06-13T06:42:13Z kuribas: beach: oh, it seems to come with slime
2018-06-13T06:42:51Z beach: Yeah, maybe so.  But it might require a local copy of the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  Again, I forget.  You would have to read the documentation.
2018-06-13T06:43:25Z kuribas: no, it references lispworks
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2018-06-13T06:43:33Z beach: Oh, OK.
2018-06-13T06:44:03Z kuribas: but it can be customized (of course :-) )
2018-06-13T06:44:27Z beach: Of course.
2018-06-13T06:45:22Z kuribas: is common lisp closer to scheme or to emacs lisp?
2018-06-13T06:45:32Z beach: Closer to Emacs Lisp.
2018-06-13T06:45:38Z beach: It's a Lisp-2.
2018-06-13T06:47:33Z phoe: kuribas: depends
2018-06-13T06:47:48Z phoe: there are things that are closer to Scheme but overall it's closer to elisp
2018-06-13T06:48:24Z beach: kuribas: Like it uses lexical scoping by default.
2018-06-13T06:50:04Z phoe: beach: `it` is a vague reference
2018-06-13T06:50:23Z beach: kuribas: Common Lisp uses lexical scoping by default, just like Scheme does.
2018-06-13T06:50:25Z phoe: elisp uses dynamic bindings by default, as stated at https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Variable-Scoping.html
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2018-06-13T06:51:42Z phoe: beach: yes, thanks!
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2018-06-13T06:57:23Z kuribas: yeah
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2018-06-13T06:58:42Z kuribas: lol "I basically do not have a very high opinion of many of the decisions that were made in Common Lisp."
2018-06-13T06:58:58Z beach: Sounds like an RMS quotation.
2018-06-13T06:59:01Z kuribas: yeah
2018-06-13T06:59:28Z beach: You can safely ignore his opinion about Common Lisp.
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2018-06-13T06:59:48Z phoe: yep, except he didn't make elisp much better or useful
2018-06-13T06:59:53Z beach: I admire RMS, but he is not always right.
2018-06-13T06:59:57Z phoe: perhaps done the contrary at times
2018-06-13T07:00:00Z kuribas: phoe: exactly
2018-06-13T07:00:07Z shrdlu68: Keywords are his biggest grievance.
2018-06-13T07:00:24Z phoe: shrdlu68: he fixed that by making every single symbol a keyword
2018-06-13T07:00:32Z phoe: like, they're all in one single package now
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2018-06-13T07:00:48Z kuribas: he is very stubborn in his view, but has been a big force in the free software movement.
2018-06-13T07:01:00Z phoe: keyword not in the CL sense of meaning, obviously; they're not constant in elisp.
2018-06-13T07:01:17Z kuribas: And he is (sadly) right in many ways.
2018-06-13T07:01:32Z kuribas: Especially the gradual erosion of privacy.
2018-06-13T07:01:34Z beach: kuribas: Also, at the time, he complained that Common Lisp was (still is) "huge", but since then, other languages have become even bigger.
2018-06-13T07:01:43Z phoe: kuribas: many of the choices made in CL were not made because they were good at that moment, but because they were the best at that moment
2018-06-13T07:01:52Z phoe: the best choice ain't necessarily good
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2018-06-13T07:03:00Z kuribas: PL design is constantly evolving.
2018-06-13T07:03:15Z beach: Not much.
2018-06-13T07:03:31Z phoe: kuribas: often by reinventing the wheels known in the 70s and 80s
2018-06-13T07:03:33Z beach: It seems to be mostly about re-inventing the flat tire.
2018-06-13T07:03:37Z kuribas: beach: I disagree
2018-06-13T07:03:43Z kuribas: there's a lot of progress in type theory
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2018-06-13T07:04:04Z beach: kuribas: Fine.  But that's off topic, so let's move to Common Lisp instead.
2018-06-13T07:04:26Z phoe: or #lispcafe since that's designed for offtopic things
2018-06-13T07:04:28Z kuribas: fair enough
2018-06-13T07:05:35Z xificurC: beach: really not much? No new multi-threaded GC algorithms? Stack allocation strategies? Optimization techniques?
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2018-06-13T07:05:59Z xificurC: if it's not clear I'm asking this seriously, I don't follow these topics
2018-06-13T07:06:38Z beach: xificurC: That's strictly speaking not programming-language design, but implementation techniques.  There is a lot of work in those domains.
2018-06-13T07:06:53Z kuribas: also logic programming, constraint logic, etc...
2018-06-13T07:07:44Z xificurC: beach: ah ok, I started to worry :)
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2018-06-13T07:08:39Z xificurC: new PL design - colorforth? That's off topic too though
2018-06-13T07:09:40Z beach: kuribas: What are you planning to do with Common Lisp?  Just learning for fun, or do you have some projects in mind?
2018-06-13T07:09:55Z kuribas: beach: a job :)
2018-06-13T07:10:47Z kuribas: It's a large data-engine used for processing information comming from power plants.
2018-06-13T07:11:02Z beach: Nice.
2018-06-13T07:13:54Z kuribas: I am not expecting anything in common lisp to be new or surprising...
2018-06-13T07:14:02Z kuribas: but you never know
2018-06-13T07:14:19Z beach: That's basically true, unless you count its unique features like CLOS.
2018-06-13T07:14:44Z kuribas: I have seen CLOS in scheme
2018-06-13T07:14:52Z xificurC: new =/= better
2018-06-13T07:15:05Z beach: But if you stick to the subset that many other languages have, then it doesn't have many surprises.
2018-06-13T07:16:09Z kuribas: I like working in parenthesised languages
2018-06-13T07:16:22Z kuribas: especially with paredit
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2018-06-13T07:51:29Z beach: kuribas: So is there a CLOS-like system in the Scheme standard these days?  I haven't been following the evolution of the Scheme standard for some time.
2018-06-13T07:53:58Z jackdaniel: beach: there is tiny-CLOS developed in Xerox by Gregor Kiczales, it is part of many scheme implementations
2018-06-13T07:54:18Z jackdaniel: racket built on top of that library called swindle (which is a tiny-CLOS superset)
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2018-06-13T07:55:01Z jackdaniel: tiny-CLOS has its MOP (it is a subset of Common Lisp's CLOS of course)
2018-06-13T07:55:09Z beach: Thanks.  Not quite what I was asking, though.
2018-06-13T07:56:23Z jackdaniel: uhm
2018-06-13T07:56:33Z mange: I'm pretty sure there's nothing CLOS-like in the Scheme standard. I haven't looked at it for a while, but I think I would remember that.
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2018-06-13T07:59:33Z beach: mange: Thanks.
2018-06-13T07:59:42Z jackdaniel: given the context these pointers were relevant though, because kuribas was talking about de-facto state of scheme ecosystem
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2018-06-13T07:59:58Z jackdaniel: just as we claim that CL may be used with threads (though they are absent in the standard)
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2018-06-13T08:00:04Z shrdlu68: beach: I have an off-topic question.
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2018-06-13T08:00:25Z beach: shrdlu68: What's that?
2018-06-13T08:00:34Z shrdlu68: Is it correct to say that languages are not inherently "slow" or "fast"?
2018-06-13T08:00:58Z beach: Pretty much.  It's a characteristic of the implementation.  However...
2018-06-13T08:01:14Z beach: Some languages make it very hard to implement efficiently.
2018-06-13T08:01:33Z shrdlu68: Would python be one of those?
2018-06-13T08:01:48Z beach: I suspect so, but I am not up to date with respect to Python.
2018-06-13T08:02:39Z beach: For example, if you can add a slot to an instance at run-time, then essentially a slot lookup must always go through a hash table to check whether the slot exists.
2018-06-13T08:03:09Z shrdlu68: I see.
2018-06-13T08:03:17Z jdz: It's amazing what can be done actually, JavaScript and V8 is a prime example.
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2018-06-13T08:03:44Z beach: But then, there are compilation techniques that make the (usually correct) assumption that instances are basically class-based.
2018-06-13T08:04:14Z beach: jdz: Yes, and the Self people proved that prototype-based languages can be compiled efficiently.
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2018-06-13T08:05:15Z beach: shrdlu68: So the Common Lisp creators carefully avoided mechanism that were not sufficiently investigated at the time.  These days, we could probably push the envelope a bit more if we wanted to.
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2018-06-13T08:06:52Z shrdlu68: Huh, I never thought of implementation techniques influencing language design.
2018-06-13T08:07:11Z beach: Oh, definitely.  Or else, you very likely get a crap language.
2018-06-13T08:07:24Z beach: ... which can be observed, I guess.
2018-06-13T08:07:32Z beach: TCL comes to mind.
2018-06-13T08:09:01Z xificurC: it's a question of what the goal is though, right. If you don't care about speed you don't have to think about whether the implementation will have a chance to compile into something fast.
2018-06-13T08:09:38Z xificurC: TCL was never meant to be a general purpose language AFAIK, just a glue like shells
2018-06-13T08:10:11Z beach: xificurC: Right.  That's how I characterize "scripting languages" when I talk to industry.  They are languages that are basically designed to be slow, sometimes because the creator knew nothing about language implementation.
2018-06-13T08:12:15Z beach: xificurC: So here is my favorite typical scenario: An application is developed using a static language such as C++ "for speed".  Then some configuration or scripting capabilities are needed, so they add a slow implementation of a dynamic language, like TCL.  Then the advanced users can only program using that language, so there is now a lot of code that is slow, for a combined slow application.
2018-06-13T08:12:38Z on_ion: i think of it like textual config file formats became more complex and turned into scripting langs
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2018-06-13T08:12:54Z beach: Yes, that happens too.
2018-06-13T08:13:12Z beach: And that's even worse, because then no real thought was put into the design of the language.
2018-06-13T08:14:17Z on_ion: they are more like effects than causes perhaps
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2018-06-13T08:15:32Z p_l: also languages that get build up without any proper parsing
2018-06-13T08:16:02Z p_l: (using s-expressions cheats around it by pretty much removing the need to write a parser)
2018-06-13T08:16:14Z xificurC: beach: of course misusing the language will cost you. If you write a bash script that launches a program and does some pre/post-processing you haven't done much harm. If you write the whole thing in bash you might have
2018-06-13T08:16:41Z p_l: depends on what the bash program does
2018-06-13T08:17:11Z p_l: (also, bash ranks pretty high when compared to "random arse language somebody hacked up for their application")
2018-06-13T08:17:11Z xificurC: UNIX is based on having many small C programs, which are often glued together with a shell script
2018-06-13T08:17:25Z xificurC: p_l: second
2018-06-13T08:18:12Z xificurC: I wonder what was using a lisp machine like
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2018-06-13T08:20:17Z xificurC: beach: how much are you aiming for speed with SICL? Do you want to be competitive with SBCL?
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2018-06-13T08:21:32Z p_l: xificurC: you'd write your own functions and call them directly
2018-06-13T08:21:57Z p_l: Genera at some point added more "interface" in the form of Command Processor (which survives in CLIM Listener)
2018-06-13T08:22:06Z p_l: Plus of course quickly hacking up GUI apps
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2018-06-13T08:22:39Z p_l: Don't know much on TI Explorer systems, but Genera had a sort-of quick UI creator
2018-06-13T08:22:48Z xificurC: p_l: write your own functions and call them directly doesn't sound much different than bash
2018-06-13T08:23:07Z p_l: except you don't have to work through abtraction of pipes etc.
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2018-06-13T08:23:38Z xificurC: I'm just saying the sentence didn't really explain the difference
2018-06-13T08:24:16Z kuribas: shrdlu68: sbcl is about as fast as ghc (haskell), which is quite impressive.
2018-06-13T08:24:58Z shrdlu68: xificurC: As I understand, there were no interrupt-style system calls. It was all like one large CL system.
2018-06-13T08:26:39Z p_l: older lisp machines would be like booting into full-screen REPL with basic windowing system
2018-06-13T08:26:57Z p_l: (Some LOGO systems were a bit similar)
2018-06-13T08:26:58Z kuribas: Didn't they invent the GUI as well?
2018-06-13T08:27:04Z p_l: not invent, no
2018-06-13T08:27:54Z p_l: early lisp machines had very simple GUI - you had the basics that were afaik taken from older MIT PDP-10 TV system (reflected in the package name "TV")
2018-06-13T08:28:55Z p_l: Over time the situation changed
2018-06-13T08:31:42Z p_l: but remember that early lisp machines (CONS) were I think mid-70s, CADR was I think late 70s? got commercialized in first few years of 1980s
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2018-06-13T08:32:11Z kuribas: they had garbage collection built in
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2018-06-13T08:32:46Z p_l: if you run SBCL directly on bare metal (nyef experimented with it) you'd have essentially the same case for GC
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2018-06-13T08:33:35Z p_l: what LispMachines had extra was support for directly typed memory as well as things like forwarding pointers and advanced (comparatively) MMU
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2018-06-13T08:35:35Z p_l: there were microcode assists on 3600 for GC, but overall it was less "GC is built into hw" and more "hardware is built for high-level language including hw-level typing"
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2018-06-13T08:38:09Z kuribas: this is mostly irrelevant today, as special purpose cpu's don't have the speed advantage.
2018-06-13T08:39:30Z kuribas: especially considering the popularity of Python, which performs quite poorly.
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2018-06-13T08:44:25Z beach: xificurC: I am definitely aiming for speed.  But I am more concerned about safety and debugging, so there might be situations where I can't compete.  For example, SBCL trusts the programmer to supply correct DYNAMIC-EXTENT declarations.  I don't think I want to do that.
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2018-06-13T08:45:37Z shka: beach: so what will dynamic-extent even do?
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2018-06-13T08:46:33Z beach: shka: Possibly not much.  Perhaps I will attempt to prove it correct only if it is explicitly given.  But I haven't made up my mind.
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2018-06-13T09:40:24Z kuribas: you give up a large part of safety when programming in a dynamic language
2018-06-13T09:40:54Z jdz: What safety is that?
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2018-06-13T09:41:53Z jdz: In the presence of random bit flips in memory I trust my run-time type checks more than the static ones.
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2018-06-13T09:42:51Z kuribas: I never got random bit flips...
2018-06-13T09:43:01Z jdz: Haha, a bold claim.
2018-06-13T09:43:10Z kuribas: and they might flip the tag as well...
2018-06-13T09:43:38Z jdz: Yes, and that's where the type checks come in.
2018-06-13T09:44:30Z jdz: Along with other type checks like the range of integers.
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2018-06-13T09:46:44Z jdz: Google DRAM errors in the wild.
2018-06-13T09:47:59Z shka: EEC memory is here for a reason
2018-06-13T09:48:00Z jdz: Not even talking about Rowhammer.
2018-06-13T09:48:20Z jdz: shka: I personally don't know anybody with ECC ram in their laptop.
2018-06-13T09:48:30Z kuribas: a type error due to human error is much, much more likely
2018-06-13T09:48:54Z beach: kuribas: The kind of safety I was referring to was more about de-allocating live objects, not de-allocating dead ones, de-referencing pointers to dead objects, etc.
2018-06-13T09:48:56Z jdz: kuribas: Human logic error is even more likely.
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2018-06-13T09:49:44Z kuribas: how are you going to check the type if the tag is corrupted?
2018-06-13T09:49:59Z jdz: What I personally would like is all the statically compiled binaries not throwing away all the type information done at compile time.
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2018-06-13T09:50:46Z jdz: kuribas: If a function expects a number, and gets a cons cell, the type check will fail, and an error will be signalled.
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2018-06-13T09:51:07Z beach: kuribas: A tag would be corrupted only if the implementation is buggy.  I would fix that problem by fixing the bug.
2018-06-13T09:51:27Z kuribas: jdz: in haskell you can add type information with Data.Typeable
2018-06-13T09:51:50Z kuribas: beach: you are talking about random bit flips.  They would affect the tag as well.
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2018-06-13T09:52:04Z shka: kuribas: fix your hardware
2018-06-13T09:52:05Z beach: kuribas: I was talking about no such thing.
2018-06-13T09:52:19Z kuribas: right, jdz was
2018-06-13T09:52:29Z jdz: kuribas: So now you're talking about delayed (dynamic) type checking, right?
2018-06-13T09:52:51Z kuribas: jdz: yes
2018-06-13T09:53:21Z jdz: So which part of "safety" are we losing when we're programming in a dynamic language?
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2018-06-13T09:53:38Z kuribas: jdz: the assurance the program doesn't crash with a type error.
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2018-06-13T09:53:56Z beach: kuribas: That's not quite true.
2018-06-13T09:54:15Z jdz: kuribas: so how does dynamic type checking help here?
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2018-06-13T09:55:13Z beach: kuribas: In a typical static programming language, you can't define a type that is "any integer except 0", so you get crashes when you divide by 0.
2018-06-13T09:55:19Z xificurC: I think he's saying x :: Int -> Int won't allow (x "foo") to be compiled
2018-06-13T09:56:12Z kuribas: beach: yes, division is not total
2018-06-13T09:56:23Z kuribas: xificurC: yes
2018-06-13T09:56:44Z jdz: kuribas: We definitely have that in CL.
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2018-06-13T09:57:07Z kuribas: jdz: does CL have type inference?
2018-06-13T09:57:20Z jdz: Of course.
2018-06-13T09:57:20Z beach: kuribas: Either way, the additional type safety offered by static programming languages comes at a price.  There are certain programs you can not express that way, and I myself believe that there is a price to pay in terms of development time.
2018-06-13T09:57:20Z shka: kuribas: yes
2018-06-13T09:57:49Z shka: static type safety is overrated imho
2018-06-13T09:57:52Z beach: kuribas: The Common Lisp language does not specify it, but good implementations definitely do it.  In particular SBCL.
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2018-06-13T09:58:36Z kuribas: beach: I think otherwise, there is nothing that you cannot express in a static programming language with a sufficiently expressive type system.  I find the development time shorter, because I get immediate feedback in my IDE.
2018-06-13T09:58:42Z kuribas: beach: ah cool
2018-06-13T09:59:16Z beach: kuribas: Good for you.
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2018-06-13T10:00:01Z jdz: Anyway, I'm programming in dynamic programming language and am not giving up any safety.
2018-06-13T10:00:43Z kuribas: jdz: I don't know about CL, but I programmed in Python, and getting crashes and weird error messages is quite common.
2018-06-13T10:01:39Z beach: kuribas: A good Common Lisp implementation should not "crash" unless you lie to the compiler.
2018-06-13T10:01:47Z jdz: Interesting.  So why are you discussing this here if you have not done any programming in CL?
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2018-06-13T10:02:39Z kuribas: I did only scheme and CL, which aren't really safe.
2018-06-13T10:02:44Z kuribas: emacs lisp
2018-06-13T10:02:47Z beach: kuribas: I use SBCL daily, and I never see any crashes.
2018-06-13T10:03:00Z beach: kuribas: I never lie to the compiler.
2018-06-13T10:03:03Z kuribas: beach: does it tell you when there is a mismatch?
2018-06-13T10:03:04Z xificurC: I think you need to agree on what *crash* means
2018-06-13T10:03:04Z jackdaniel: languages are usually safe, it's programs written in them what may crash ;-)
2018-06-13T10:03:15Z beach: kuribas: Sure, either at compile time or at run time.
2018-06-13T10:03:36Z kuribas: anyway, this is offtopic...
2018-06-13T10:03:41Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-13T10:03:55Z shrdlu68: (safety 100%)
2018-06-13T10:04:41Z xificurC: (defun x (y) (+ 2 y)) (x "foo") <- kuribas is talking about these crashes, which won't compile in e.g. haskell
2018-06-13T10:05:36Z kuribas: I'll be in lispcafe if you like to discuss this :)
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2018-06-13T10:06:13Z kuribas: xificurC: yeah
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2018-06-13T10:15:33Z dxtr: So is there a way of converting dates in the format "Fri May 04 18:54:24 +0000 2009" to ISO8601?
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2018-06-13T10:32:18Z jackdaniel: dxtr: local-time has some parsing functions and functions to print dates in different formats
2018-06-13T10:32:21Z jackdaniel: (it is a library)
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2018-06-13T10:42:54Z dxtr: jackdaniel: Yeah I ended up using a combination of cl-date-time-parser and local-time
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2018-06-13T10:47:26Z jmercouris: Xach: I have a brief question about skippy, can you pass a list of "make-image-data" into :image-data for "make-image"?
2018-06-13T10:47:42Z jmercouris: I'm trying to render many squares at once instead of a single square per "frame" of the gif
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2018-06-13T11:14:52Z kuribas: beach: you think the best way to learn CL is just the hyperspec?
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2018-06-13T11:20:42Z jmercouris: kuribas: I doubt it
2018-06-13T11:20:57Z jmercouris: I can't imagine how the hyperspec could engage anyone to read it cover to cover
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2018-06-13T11:29:52Z shrdlu68: For beginners, Graham's "Ansi Common Lisp" might be a better entry point.
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2018-06-13T11:31:56Z shrdlu68: I know it's not popular here, being a pre-standard work, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading CLTL, and I've seen others echo the same sentiment here.
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2018-06-13T11:35:29Z kuribas: jmercouris: yeah, it seems rather dry, and filled with minute details
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2018-06-13T11:36:02Z shrdlu68: It's an excellent reference once you're comfortable with the language, though.
2018-06-13T11:37:57Z jmercouris: Yeah, it would be like suggesting somebody read a dictionary to learn english
2018-06-13T11:38:24Z kuribas: I did learn python by reading the spec...
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2018-06-13T11:38:41Z jmercouris: If it works for you, what can I say :D
2018-06-13T11:38:55Z Xof: there's a python specification?
2018-06-13T11:38:57Z kuribas: the python spec is rather small though
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2018-06-13T11:39:23Z kuribas: python language reference rather
2018-06-13T11:39:52Z jmercouris: Xof: Of course there is! The only implementation :D
2018-06-13T11:40:41Z kuribas: jmercouris: which one, CPyton, PyPy, Cyton?
2018-06-13T11:40:57Z kuribas: which are all subtly different :)
2018-06-13T11:41:57Z shrdlu68: ...CLPython
2018-06-13T11:42:06Z jackdaniel: I don't know why internal CMU/SBCL compiler architecture comes over and over again
2018-06-13T11:42:25Z jackdaniel: ;-)
2018-06-13T11:42:34Z shrdlu68: It was a good show...
2018-06-13T11:43:18Z kuribas: shrdlu68: that's a real thing?
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2018-06-13T11:43:35Z shrdlu68: kuribas: https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/
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2018-06-13T11:49:12Z kuribas: is there a good text in dead tree format?
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2018-06-13T11:50:12Z kuribas: hmm "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming"
2018-06-13T11:50:17Z kuribas: sounds interesting
2018-06-13T11:54:49Z p_l: kuribas: there's no such thing as python spec, afaik :)
2018-06-13T11:55:13Z p_l: you have the mess of special cases known as CPython, and a bunch of projects that try to run the same stuff
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2018-06-13T11:57:42Z LdBeth: The Python compiler was included in CMUCL’s source tree
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2018-06-13T12:17:48Z xificurC: kuribas: I know PCL (practical common lisp), LoL (Land of Lisp), another LOL (let over lambda), On Lisp, Lisp in Small Pieces, PAIP you mentioned, AMOP (the Art of the MetaObject Protocol). Surely there's more. I started with PCL which was recommended to me, I think here in IRC. I also enjoyed LoL. The others are probably not written as a guide to
2018-06-13T12:17:48Z xificurC: CL
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2018-06-13T12:25:06Z LdBeth: For me it’s more fun to learn the history
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2018-06-13T12:39:46Z kuribas: is "Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp" a good book?
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2018-06-13T12:44:42Z shka: kuribas: it is a very good book
2018-06-13T12:44:43Z Xach: kuribas: very very good
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2018-06-13T12:44:50Z Xach: shka: NO! very very!
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2018-06-13T12:45:14Z shka: Xach: extreamly? outstanding?
2018-06-13T12:45:19Z shka: :D
2018-06-13T12:45:25Z shka: anyway, worth reading
2018-06-13T12:45:32Z Xach: extreamly is good
2018-06-13T12:45:36Z shka: besides
2018-06-13T12:45:42Z kuribas: okay, so not to bad then
2018-06-13T12:45:53Z shka: look at the guy
2018-06-13T12:45:55Z shka: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Peter_Norvig_speaking_at_University_of_California%2C_Berkeley.jpg/1200px-Peter_Norvig_speaking_at_University_of_California%2C_Berkeley.jpg
2018-06-13T12:46:22Z shka: he is a cool dude ;-)
2018-06-13T12:47:03Z shka: and his shirts are of legendary quality
2018-06-13T12:47:16Z shka: clearly, this makes him excelent book author
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2018-06-13T12:48:07Z beach: kuribas: Most people here would probably recommend PCL for someone in your situation.
2018-06-13T12:48:37Z shka: or Land Of Lisp
2018-06-13T12:49:20Z kuribas: isn't there a reference which is a bit more friendly than hyperspec?
2018-06-13T12:49:56Z shka: i like Common Lisp The Language second edition for that
2018-06-13T12:50:09Z beach: kuribas: I am unaware of a reference other than the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  But CLtL2 is a good book.  You just have to be careful about stuff that did not end up in the standard.
2018-06-13T12:50:26Z Xach: kuribas: not really. the hyperspec isn't something to start with to learn, but it's a very good reference.
2018-06-13T12:50:46Z kuribas: oh, googling "common lisp reference" gives me quite a few interesting links
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2018-06-13T12:52:16Z Xach: There are things that are "friendly" that don't quite act as "reference"
2018-06-13T12:52:32Z Xach: the common lisp quick reference is good but perhaps not friendly...terse, though
2018-06-13T12:52:43Z jackdaniel: kuribas: if you are interested in single pdf version of the standard, you may find it here: http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html
2018-06-13T12:53:14Z Krisostoomus: https://imgur.com/a/CLT64
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2018-06-13T12:54:10Z White_Flame: um, if you haven't done so yet, don't click that link.  and someone with ops should ban them
2018-06-13T12:54:20Z White_Flame: nsfw
2018-06-13T12:54:30Z shka: White_Flame: thanks for info
2018-06-13T12:54:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach
2018-06-13T12:54:41Z White_Flame took one for the team there :-P
2018-06-13T12:54:44Z Xach has set mode +b *!*Krisostoo@*.dyn.estpak.ee
2018-06-13T12:54:47Z Krisostoomus [~xach@pdpc/supporter/professional/xach] has been kicked from #lisp by Xach (Krisostoomus)
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2018-06-13T13:04:25Z LdBeth too late
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2018-06-13T13:23:59Z White_Flame: finally got around to doing the equivalent of ieee-floats with an sb-alien union instead.  was pretty simple
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2018-06-13T13:28:15Z White_Flame: ends up being 46 asm instructions, mostly fiddling with the foreign stack pointers, no subroutine calls
2018-06-13T13:28:32Z White_Flame: of course, doing custom VOPs would be a lot tighter, but this should be fine
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2018-06-13T13:50:53Z varjag: long shot, but did anyone use apple's push notification service from lisp?
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2018-06-13T13:56:20Z p_l: varjag: uhh, I think I've seen few examples in the past, but I'm not really involved in macOS world :/
2018-06-13T13:56:26Z p_l: so can't point you anywhere
2018-06-13T13:59:31Z varjag: it's for their ios service
2018-06-13T13:59:56Z varjag: problem is they are http/2 only
2018-06-13T14:00:47Z varjag: there's cl-http2-protocol, but it feels alpha quality
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2018-06-13T14:01:31Z varjag: so wonder if i should try build on that or just run some separate service in another language
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2018-06-13T14:11:36Z Xach: varjag: you should make it better or make your own thing that is great
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2018-06-13T14:13:27Z dlowe: http2 is a tough protocol.  There are a *lot* of knobs.
2018-06-13T14:13:34Z Xach: Life is tough!
2018-06-13T14:13:37Z Xach: Do it anyway!
2018-06-13T14:13:46Z varjag: :)
2018-06-13T14:14:04Z dlowe: I'm already doing my alloted tough things.
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2018-06-13T14:14:35Z shrdlu68: Mere existence is tough enough.
2018-06-13T14:15:12Z jmercouris: Xach: did you see my message earlier?
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2018-06-13T14:21:14Z varjag: comes with own patched cl+ssl fork..
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2018-06-13T14:30:40Z Xach: jmercouris: No
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2018-06-13T14:31:31Z jmercouris: Xach: I have a brief question about skippy, can you pass a list of "make-image-data" into :image-data for "make-image"?
2018-06-13T14:31:39Z jmercouris: E.g. How can I draw multiple rectangles in a single frame
2018-06-13T14:32:22Z Xach: jmercouris: rectangles?
2018-06-13T14:32:39Z Xach: You draw by setting the values in the image data.
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2018-06-13T14:32:47Z Xach: You can draw anything you like that way.
2018-06-13T14:32:53Z jmercouris: Xach: well yeah, (make-image ...) will draw you a square
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2018-06-13T14:33:00Z jmercouris: or a rectangle of any dimensinos
2018-06-13T14:33:02Z Xach: No, it won't.
2018-06-13T14:33:11Z Xach: It will create an image and the image will have some default values.
2018-06-13T14:33:23Z Xach: But buying a canvas is not the same as buying a picture of a rectangle.
2018-06-13T14:33:25Z jmercouris: One can draw rectangles using make-image
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2018-06-13T14:33:40Z Xach: If one wishes to have a bad mental model for future intuition, one can.
2018-06-13T14:34:18Z jmercouris: Alright, I'll clear all notions I have about how it works
2018-06-13T14:34:45Z jmercouris: and I'll instead ask this as a high level question
2018-06-13T14:35:05Z jmercouris: how can one draw multiple rectangles, as part of a single frame, using skippy?
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2018-06-13T14:36:31Z Xach: jmercouris: If I was going to do that, I would make a canvas, draw the rectangles with fill-area, and make an image from that canvas.
2018-06-13T14:36:58Z jmercouris: Xach: Ok, thanks, I'll figure out how to do that then
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2018-06-13T14:51:34Z sebboh: hi.  Is there some float version of parse-integer?
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2018-06-13T14:53:46Z Xach: sebboh: not built-in
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2018-06-13T15:00:16Z sebboh: ok. thanks!
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2018-06-13T15:01:06Z sebboh: Is this package popular? http://quickdocs.org/parse-float/
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2018-06-13T15:02:23Z jkordani_: sure why not, it a dependency for 11 projects
2018-06-13T15:02:42Z jdz: It does what it says on the box.
2018-06-13T15:02:59Z makomo: sebboh: i used it and it worked fine :D
2018-06-13T15:03:18Z jdz: I used it, and it did not work fine, but then I fixed it, and now it works fine :)
2018-06-13T15:03:23Z sebboh: Answer was not "No, use xyz, fool!"... ok, proceeding. :)
2018-06-13T15:03:47Z makomo: jdz: what was the problem?
2018-06-13T15:05:06Z jdz: Oh, I was talking about parse-number.  My bad.
2018-06-13T15:05:22Z jdz: https://github.com/sharplispers/parse-number/commit/eee12e439de688021e6c6245841e127dc8ac8c0d
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2018-06-13T15:06:51Z makomo: ah :-)
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2018-06-13T15:07:04Z makomo: so there's parse-number too
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2018-06-13T15:37:12Z sebboh: parse-float worked.
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2018-06-13T20:51:00Z desperek: hey
2018-06-13T20:51:07Z desperek: can somebody help me compile pgloader?
2018-06-13T20:51:18Z desperek: i struggle with libraries i lack ://
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2018-06-13T20:53:50Z comborico1611: desperek: Sorry, I'm new here.
2018-06-13T20:54:07Z desperek: u-uh?
2018-06-13T20:54:33Z desperek: eh im too young for irc
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2018-06-13T20:56:26Z akkad: desperek: sure
2018-06-13T20:56:54Z akkad: desperek: you CAN download a binary from github for it, and it can auto download latest version of code, and self compile.
2018-06-13T20:57:28Z desperek: akkad, uuh? where?
2018-06-13T20:57:48Z desperek: that bundle thing?
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2018-06-13T21:01:43Z akkad: desperek: one sec. which os?
2018-06-13T21:01:49Z desperek: akkad, windows or freebsd
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2018-06-13T21:03:06Z akkad: the readme covers compiling on those, as well as what is required to build it
2018-06-13T21:03:16Z akkad: do you have an error, you can gist, or not paste fully here?
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2018-06-13T21:04:42Z desperek: uh gimmie a sec
2018-06-13T21:04:48Z desperek: trying to complite it with sbcl
2018-06-13T21:04:52Z desperek: sdcl?
2018-06-13T21:04:58Z desperek: sbcl
2018-06-13T21:06:05Z desperek:  COMPILE-FILE-ERROR while compiling #<CL-SOURCE-FILE "qmynd" "src" "api">
2018-06-13T21:06:05Z desperek: make: *** [Makefile:47: bin/pgloader] Error 1 for sbcl and bundle
2018-06-13T21:08:05Z akkad: desperek: use quicklisp, it is easier
2018-06-13T21:08:20Z desperek: akkad, uh this thing downloads it
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2018-06-13T21:11:45Z desperek: Fatal MISSING-DEPENDENCY:
2018-06-13T21:11:45Z desperek:   Component #:CL-MUSTACHE not found, required by #<SYSTEM "pgloader">
2018-06-13T21:11:45Z desperek: make: *** [Makefile:136: build/bin/pgloader.exe] Error 1
2018-06-13T21:11:46Z desperek: i mean
2018-06-13T21:11:47Z desperek: wtf
2018-06-13T21:11:51Z desperek: i give up ehhh
2018-06-13T21:12:56Z akkad: I was recommending (ql:quickload :pgloader) as it will do the right thing, and give better errors on missing dependencies
2018-06-13T21:13:31Z desperek: akkad, but what does that mean
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2018-06-13T21:15:33Z desperek: i dont like lisp
2018-06-13T21:15:34Z desperek: dont judge me
2018-06-13T21:16:07Z pjb: desperek: don't suffer.  If you've got a lisp job, resign.  Stop using lisp.  There are a lot of other nice programming languages.
2018-06-13T21:16:42Z desperek: pjb, argh i just want to convert my database!
2018-06-13T21:17:15Z desperek: and lol, i wouldnt even apply for lisp job
2018-06-13T21:19:16Z desperek: pjb, well, the thing is that i couldnt really find anything to convert db (or w/e i should call it) and pgloader looked really promising
2018-06-13T21:19:20Z desperek: well, still looks
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2018-06-13T21:19:54Z pjb: I thought dimitri was providing commercial support for his pgloader.  You may try to contact him directly.
2018-06-13T21:20:00Z pjb: https://github.com/dimitri
2018-06-13T21:20:59Z desperek: pjb, well yea, he does. i am not a professional tho
2018-06-13T21:21:44Z pjb: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader
2018-06-13T21:21:53Z pjb: you can install the binary with apt-get !
2018-06-13T21:22:12Z pjb: or run it in a docker.
2018-06-13T21:22:21Z pjb: No need to deal with lisp.
2018-06-13T21:22:35Z aeth: Depends on the distro. I think the only non-implementation CL thing in Fedora is maxima
2018-06-13T21:23:09Z desperek: pjb, the thing is that i am on a shared, soo... yea.
2018-06-13T21:23:28Z pjb: You can always run a virtual machine.
2018-06-13T21:23:52Z desperek: pjb, haha i've heard of using qemu there like yesterday!
2018-06-13T21:24:22Z desperek: or i could just use something other
2018-06-13T21:24:26Z desperek: but what do i use
2018-06-13T21:24:41Z pjb: VirtualBox is nice.
2018-06-13T21:25:08Z aeth: what's the problem?
2018-06-13T21:25:37Z pjb: Using a shared machine, not being root, I guess.
2018-06-13T21:27:06Z desperek: mhm
2018-06-13T21:28:05Z aeth: ah
2018-06-13T21:29:17Z desperek: ehh... why did i have to choose mysql :D
2018-06-13T21:31:53Z pjb: indeed. Postgres.
2018-06-13T21:32:43Z desperek: mhm
2018-06-13T21:32:47Z desperek: considering i use rails there
2018-06-13T21:33:14Z desperek: well, technically speaking, i can just copy and paste the records...
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2018-06-13T23:00:06Z akkad: with sbcl it can harder for clnoobs
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2018-06-14T01:44:23Z theemacsshibe[m]: is there a function to see if a bordeaux-thread lock is being used?
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2018-06-14T03:24:44Z pillton: theemacsshibe[m]: I'm guessing it would involve (acquire-lock lock :wait-p nil).
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2018-06-14T04:02:25Z on_ion: =)
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2018-06-14T04:41:46Z phoe: theemacsshibe[m]: (cond ((acquire-lock lock :wait-p nil) (release-lock lock) t) (t nil))
2018-06-14T04:42:15Z theemacsshibe[m]: alright, thanks
2018-06-14T04:42:33Z theemacsshibe[m]: didn't think about using acquire like that, thought there'd be an acquired-lock-p or something
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2018-06-14T04:43:12Z phoe: theemacsshibe[m]: remember that you're in a multithreaded environment
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2018-06-14T04:43:32Z phoe: (if (acquired-lock-p lock) (foo) (bar))
2018-06-14T04:43:48Z phoe: The state of the lock can change betweeen evaluating the condition and one of (FOO) (BAR)
2018-06-14T04:44:06Z phoe: so the ACQUIRE-LOCK-P function doesn't really work
2018-06-14T04:44:24Z phoe: the only sane work of checking if it's acquired is attempting to acquire it yourself
2018-06-14T04:44:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: true
2018-06-14T04:44:44Z phoe: s/work/way
2018-06-14T04:44:47Z phoe: also, good morning
2018-06-14T04:45:52Z theemacsshibe[m]: afternoon
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2018-06-14T05:15:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-14T06:14:27Z flip214: phoe: also, the state of the lock might change while your COND is returning T ... or at any later point as well, so IMO a LOCK-ACQUIRED-P would be okay.
2018-06-14T06:14:53Z flip214: after all, your COND can just be put in a (DEFUN LOCK-ACQUIRED-P (lock) ... ), right?
2018-06-14T06:15:12Z flip214: the only valid use is for debugging purposes anyway.
2018-06-14T06:15:44Z flip214: (assert (eq (lock-owner lock) (current-thread)))  or similar
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2018-06-14T06:20:00Z White_Flame: that's the nature of asynchronous polling; can't escape it
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2018-06-14T07:53:00Z dadabidet: Im a lisp beginner, what is a good interpreter for linux?
2018-06-14T07:53:03Z dadabidet: sbcl?
2018-06-14T07:54:34Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: it is a compiler
2018-06-14T07:54:40Z dadabidet: clisp then?
2018-06-14T07:54:47Z jackdaniel: I think that Common Lisp doesn't have a stricte interpreter
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2018-06-14T07:55:06Z jackdaniel: SBCL is a good choice, I've just pointed out that your naming was incorrect
2018-06-14T07:55:15Z jackdaniel: minion: tell dadabidet about pcl
2018-06-14T07:55:17Z minion: dadabidet: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-06-14T07:55:40Z jackdaniel: fact that something has a compiler doesn't mean you can't use it interactively with REPL
2018-06-14T07:56:07Z jackdaniel: the distinction is that compiler takes your code, performs some optimizations and outputs target bytecode (be it binary or some bytecode)
2018-06-14T07:56:08Z dadabidet: not looking for a book, just a program I can aptget
2018-06-14T07:56:13Z jackdaniel: while interpreter takes a statement and executes it
2018-06-14T07:56:14Z dadabidet: I know the difference
2018-06-14T07:56:29Z jackdaniel: alright. then sbcl is a good choice.
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2018-06-14T08:01:08Z kuribas: is tagbody/go goto like in basic?
2018-06-14T08:02:40Z jackdaniel: define "like in basic" ;p tagbody/go provides labels you can jump to with go
2018-06-14T08:02:48Z dadabidet: ok so in list you cannot have anything small than ()
2018-06-14T08:03:02Z kuribas: jackdaniel: I am thinking like GW-BASIC back in the days
2018-06-14T08:03:05Z jackdaniel: smaller? () is an empty list
2018-06-14T08:03:20Z dadabidet: in term of syntax
2018-06-14T08:03:25Z jackdaniel: kuribas: I don't know basic, so I can't tell. but you may check out tagbody/go syntax and decide yourself
2018-06-14T08:03:35Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: you can type T
2018-06-14T08:03:43Z jackdaniel: what is "true"
2018-06-14T08:03:44Z kuribas: jackdaniel: it looks like something I would never ever use
2018-06-14T08:03:48Z dadabidet: Sorry Im coming from a C/C++ background so I have to re learn things
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2018-06-14T08:04:10Z jackdaniel: kuribas: tagbody/go is usually used in macros which implement better abstraction on top of this
2018-06-14T08:04:18Z jackdaniel: for instance DO is usually implemented with tagbody underneath
2018-06-14T08:04:40Z jackdaniel: it is nothing used on daily basis in the code (usually)
2018-06-14T08:05:00Z kuribas: jackdaniel: right, that makes more sense
2018-06-14T08:07:04Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: in lisp form is either an atom or a list. some atom examples: `3 "string" symbol nil #(1 2 3) T', some list examples: (1 2 3) (foo 1 2) nil
2018-06-14T08:07:20Z jackdaniel: note that nil is an empty list ( NIL is semantically equivalent to () )
2018-06-14T08:07:58Z dadabidet: btw what is the point of using ` instead of ' ?
2018-06-14T08:08:04Z jackdaniel: for the evaluation rule I'd suggest looking into some basic tutorial or a book (SICP is a good one, targetting scheme though)
2018-06-14T08:08:15Z jackdaniel: I've used backquote to separate atoms from the rest (inconsistently, sorry)
2018-06-14T08:08:34Z dadabidet: I want to learn the basic, I don't want to learn the whole thing
2018-06-14T08:08:34Z jackdaniel: but in code ` means backquote, which has some special characteristics, while ' means just quote
2018-06-14T08:08:56Z jackdaniel: that's why reading short tutorial is a good idea, you don't expect to learn basic from stranger on irc, do you? :-)
2018-06-14T08:09:16Z dadabidet: why not :)
2018-06-14T08:09:51Z jackdaniel: because random strangers usually are busy with their own endavours, that's why they end up with writing tutorials eventually
2018-06-14T08:10:29Z jackdaniel: chapter or two from PCL should take you around an hour or two. after doing it you should have basics grasped
2018-06-14T08:10:52Z jackdaniel: book "ANSI Common Lisp" by Paul Graham is another book which introduces you to the basics in first chapter
2018-06-14T08:12:22Z jackdaniel: this looks not-so-bad, though the author got some indentation wrong: https://maxtimkovich.com/lisp_tutorial
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2018-06-14T08:14:09Z dadabidet: how about https://learnxinyminutes.com/docs/common-lisp/ ?
2018-06-14T08:14:52Z dadabidet: I hate to read explanations, I just want code and comments I guess
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2018-06-14T08:16:13Z jackdaniel: I suppose that will give you some basics as well
2018-06-14T08:16:23Z makomo: >Fruther reading: Practical Common Lisp
2018-06-14T08:16:30Z makomo: hehe :D
2018-06-14T08:16:32Z makomo: Further*
2018-06-14T08:17:17Z jackdaniel: bear in mind that I'd still recommend reading first chapter or two of the mentioned books instead of going through that
2018-06-14T08:17:37Z jackdaniel: but if that's how you prefer to learn that should be fine too
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2018-06-14T08:19:14Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: You could check out examples on rosettacode and compare c/c++ to CL examples. But you'll still have to look up explanations for things you don't understand.
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2018-06-14T08:19:48Z dadabidet: yeah the '() seems interesting because it allows metaprogramming
2018-06-14T08:19:57Z dadabidet: I really want to understand this
2018-06-14T08:20:11Z shka: dadabidet: it is syntatic sugar
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2018-06-14T08:20:34Z shka: split between reader and compiler is important
2018-06-14T08:20:50Z dadabidet: what's a reader?
2018-06-14T08:20:55Z shrdlu68: Heh.
2018-06-14T08:20:58Z dadabidet: I mean how do you explain it?
2018-06-14T08:21:02Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: macros provide you metaprogramming capabilities
2018-06-14T08:21:12Z dadabidet: so ' is a macro
2018-06-14T08:21:14Z jackdaniel: and lisp macro is a different beast than macro in C/C++
2018-06-14T08:21:23Z jackdaniel: yes, it is a macro which quotes the expression
2018-06-14T08:21:36Z jackdaniel: what I'm saying that you may write your own macros
2018-06-14T08:21:43Z jackdaniel: and that gives you metaprogramming capabilities
2018-06-14T08:22:03Z jackdaniel: but I'd stick to functions and basics first
2018-06-14T08:22:26Z jackdaniel: that said I've got to go, later \o
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2018-06-14T08:31:47Z beach: kuribas: TAGBODY is also useful for implementing finite-state machines.
2018-06-14T08:32:18Z dadabidet: Are there high performance stuff using lisp? like video games or other stuff?
2018-06-14T08:32:25Z beach: dadabidet: Yes.
2018-06-14T08:33:05Z beach: The people in #lispgames probably know more.
2018-06-14T08:33:58Z beach: dadabidet: Did you have any reasons to believe that Common Lisp could not be used for high-performance programs?
2018-06-14T08:34:43Z dadabidet: yeah just today, read it somewhere, Im going to try to find it
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2018-06-14T08:34:59Z beach: Please do.
2018-06-14T08:35:55Z dadabidet: well it was not about lisp, weirdly, but about functional programming... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming#Efficiency_issues
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2018-06-14T08:36:25Z beach: Luckily, Common Lisp is not a functional programming language.
2018-06-14T08:37:00Z shrdlu68: Where does this misconception come from?
2018-06-14T08:37:12Z beach: shrdlu68: Which one?
2018-06-14T08:37:12Z shrdlu68: It's bizarre.
2018-06-14T08:37:31Z shrdlu68: The association between "lisp" and "functional".
2018-06-14T08:37:59Z kuribas: beach: my luckily?
2018-06-14T08:38:29Z kuribas: would it be a bad thing?
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2018-06-14T08:38:38Z beach: kuribas: Yes, because if it were, I could not use the excellent object-oriented capabilities that I have gotten so used to.
2018-06-14T08:39:05Z dadabidet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language) wikipedia says it's functional
2018-06-14T08:39:09Z dadabidet: although not only
2018-06-14T08:39:22Z kuribas: beach: there are languages with both, like ocaml
2018-06-14T08:39:35Z beach: kuribas: I am using "functional programming language" in the sense that mutation is not allowed.
2018-06-14T08:40:04Z dadabidet: although language classification are not very precise. and the paragraph about functional not being fast sounds weird
2018-06-14T08:40:06Z kuribas: beach: mututation is allowed in a functional language
2018-06-14T08:40:16Z beach: kuribas: Fine.
2018-06-14T08:40:28Z kuribas: dadabidet: indeed, ghc and sbcl are about the same in performance.
2018-06-14T08:40:41Z dadabidet: kuribas, not in pure functional, which is used in multithreaded? or high performance?
2018-06-14T08:40:58Z dadabidet: I meant about mutation
2018-06-14T08:41:27Z kuribas: dadabidet: it is controlled, and pure functions are separated from side-effecting procedures.
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2018-06-14T08:42:29Z kuribas: dadabidet: but you can still, say, mutate a matrix, and have a pure function.
2018-06-14T08:42:43Z kuribas: dadabidet: as long as you leave the original unmodified.
2018-06-14T08:42:45Z dadabidet: that's true
2018-06-14T08:43:49Z shrdlu68: By wikipedia's definition, almost all languages are support the "functional" style.
2018-06-14T08:44:19Z beach: kuribas: That makes absolutely no sense.  If you mutate something, then by definition it is not unmodified.
2018-06-14T08:44:43Z kuribas: beach: you need to make a copy of the matrix first.
2018-06-14T08:44:56Z dadabidet: why doesn't lisp use more separators, like commas, curly braces?
2018-06-14T08:45:10Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: No need.
2018-06-14T08:45:48Z shrdlu68: compare (foo bar baz) and (foo bar, baz);
2018-06-14T08:45:50Z dadabidet: So haskell in a sense is using more characters to be more readable
2018-06-14T08:46:17Z shrdlu68: No, has nothing to do with readability.
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2018-06-14T08:47:03Z dadabidet: My brain has trouble with lisp because since the brace is the mostly used separator, my brain has to build a hierarchy which is visually harder to see
2018-06-14T08:47:12Z shrdlu68: It's more of an acquired taste.
2018-06-14T08:47:15Z beach: dadabidet: Sorry to hear that.
2018-06-14T08:47:44Z kuribas: dadabidet: the idea is that you can look at a function signatures, and know if it does side effects or not.
2018-06-14T08:48:23Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: You're not alone in that, but you'll get used to it, if you give it a try. Not "used to it" in the "put up with it" sense but "get it".
2018-06-14T08:49:12Z kuribas: dadabidet: I don't find haskell harder or easier to read than LISP.
2018-06-14T08:49:40Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: There's a symmetry and uniformity to lisp syntax that makes it one of the language's most endearing features for me.
2018-06-14T08:50:01Z kuribas: I find editing LISP with paredit/emacs easier than editing other languages.
2018-06-14T08:50:21Z beach: kuribas: We write it "Lisp" these days.  If you write "LISP", people will think of 1960s dialects.
2018-06-14T08:50:32Z kuribas: right
2018-06-14T08:52:49Z jackdaniel: kuribas: copying argument first and mutating it gives you referential transparency, not a "pure" function
2018-06-14T08:53:15Z kuribas: jackdaniel: yes, it's a pure function
2018-06-14T08:53:33Z kuribas: purity doesn't mean no mutation can happen "under the hood".
2018-06-14T08:54:30Z kuribas: jackdaniel: though semantically it's the same not doing any mutation.
2018-06-14T08:54:44Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: Compare: https://gist.github.com/shrdlu68/f13ffcfb25f34e4aea960854c7537ada
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2018-06-14T08:56:55Z kuribas: jackdaniel: the type system ensures that the "mutated" array cannot escape the function.
2018-06-14T08:58:30Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: It gets especially ugly when the the or statements don't fit on the same line in C-style syntax.
2018-06-14T08:58:51Z dadabidet: just put line returns
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2018-06-14T09:01:31Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: Certainly, but observe what happens: https://gist.github.com/shrdlu68/22bcc02e164199f90febe70b5eadebc5
2018-06-14T09:02:53Z jackdaniel: I've checked some sources. given wikipedia definition you are right, given haskell, ANSI CL (book), hackernoon and fpcomplete.com description you are not
2018-06-14T09:04:06Z jackdaniel: (that is, wikipedia seems to make both therm "pure function" and "referentially transparent function" semantically the same, while other sources claim, that "pure function" doesn't have side effects *at all* in its definition in opposition to referentially transparent function, which may mutate some copied variables)
2018-06-14T09:05:51Z xificurC: if mapcar returns a fresh list, does it matter if it did mutations under the hood?
2018-06-14T09:05:56Z jackdaniel: there is also interesting discussion in SICP about side effects in languages which are compiled and executed on a computer - under the hood (but really under the hood) function execution takes time, makes processor warmer etc, so you can't really claim side-effect fee
2018-06-14T09:06:02Z jackdaniel: free
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2018-06-14T09:06:15Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: But because most people are not introduced to s-expressions until they have throroughly adapted to parsing C-style code, they find it jarring.
2018-06-14T09:06:32Z dadabidet: by the way what is bad about side effects?
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2018-06-14T09:07:10Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: nothing really, but having (at least) referentially transparent function gives you some interesting qualities
2018-06-14T09:07:13Z shrdlu68: Hence "Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal with fingernail clippings mixed in".
2018-06-14T09:07:14Z jackdaniel: like memoization
2018-06-14T09:07:20Z xificurC: mapcar may be a bad example because it is a HOF so the function it takes can do side effects
2018-06-14T09:07:25Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: you may for instance cache function results
2018-06-14T09:07:51Z jackdaniel: and that would be transparrent to the programmer (except the fact, that program may be faster)
2018-06-14T09:08:32Z jackdaniel: xificurC: yes and no. imagine scenario, when your referentially transparent function copies matrix. you are short on memory (and matrix is really big). you may run out of heap
2018-06-14T09:09:23Z xificurC: jackdaniel: even haskell doesn't try to pull these qualities into the type system AFAIK
2018-06-14T09:09:24Z jackdaniel: that's maybe a bad example, I'll keep silent now
2018-06-14T09:10:31Z xificurC: purity is a hard concept but usually when a language is talking about purity it does define it
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2018-06-14T09:10:41Z dadabidet: are there languages that mix languages like C and lisp?
2018-06-14T09:10:50Z dadabidet: python have lambdas
2018-06-14T09:10:52Z xificurC: what a "pure function" guarantees
2018-06-14T09:11:18Z jackdaniel: dadabidet: ECL (embeddable common lisp) allows you to inline C (and use Lisp libraries in your C application)
2018-06-14T09:11:35Z jackdaniel: also most Common Lisp implementations have FFI (foreign function interface) which allows you using C libraries from Lisp
2018-06-14T09:12:01Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: I don't think he meant FFI.
2018-06-14T09:12:40Z shrdlu68: I think he meant "languages whose design is partly influenced by C and Lisp".
2018-06-14T09:12:41Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: then please explain what he meant if both my answers were incorrect ;)
2018-06-14T09:13:02Z jackdaniel: ah, well, dylan for instance
2018-06-14T09:13:08Z shrdlu68: dadabidet: Lots of people claim so. "Perl 6 is Lisp with a decent syntax, and minus a lot of assumptions about how lists should be represented :)" -- here is a man who would be okay with lisp but for the syntax.
2018-06-14T09:13:09Z jackdaniel: Java
2018-06-14T09:13:16Z jackdaniel: Ruby
2018-06-14T09:13:45Z jackdaniel: many concepts which were pioneered in Lisp got into languages which borrow syntax from C
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2018-06-14T09:15:54Z kuribas: dadabidet: it's not bad, but a sideeffect-free (pure) function, can be understood without requiring knowledge of the surrounding context.
2018-06-14T09:16:04Z dadabidet: in C return is a statement, right?
2018-06-14T09:17:02Z beach: dadabidet: Yes.  Why do you ask?
2018-06-14T09:17:07Z shrdlu68: Yes, one doesn't need an explicit "return" in CL.
2018-06-14T09:17:07Z kuribas: dadabidet: in effect, it depends only on the inputs it receives, while with mutation, you depend on the global state as a whole.
2018-06-14T09:18:49Z dadabidet: but pure function are good since they increase locality, so you reduce the risk of invalidating your cache line
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2018-06-14T09:20:14Z beach: dadabidet: Why did you ask whether return is a statement in C?
2018-06-14T09:20:53Z dadabidet: beach, I was trying to imagine how a return is translated into machine code
2018-06-14T09:21:12Z dadabidet: but in C you also have ternary
2018-06-14T09:21:24Z shrdlu68: Depends on the calling convention.
2018-06-14T09:21:26Z beach: dadabidet: It typically translates to the RET machine instruction.
2018-06-14T09:21:29Z dadabidet: rust doesn't have return
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2018-06-14T09:26:08Z flip214: does it have GOTO?
2018-06-14T09:27:04Z dadabidet: no idea
2018-06-14T09:27:07Z dadabidet: I guess not
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2018-06-14T09:27:37Z dadabidet: not a fan of rust, it can be too foreign for a C++ programmer
2018-06-14T09:27:58Z dadabidet: I like the safety, but I still have to wrap my head around the whole enum classes
2018-06-14T09:29:14Z dadabidet: and it's not as easy to read as C
2018-06-14T09:29:29Z dadabidet: greetings.iter().enumerate()
2018-06-14T09:29:52Z beach: dadabidet: Try to stick to the topic a bit more, please.
2018-06-14T09:30:17Z dadabidet: he was asking me about goto
2018-06-14T09:30:22Z dadabidet: just answering
2018-06-14T09:30:52Z shka: rust?
2018-06-14T09:30:55Z shka: what is it?
2018-06-14T09:30:59Z shka: new cl implementation?
2018-06-14T09:31:05Z shka: kinda lame name imho
2018-06-14T09:31:06Z shka: :P
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2018-06-14T09:32:54Z dadabidet: language developed by mozilla, it doesn't have a return statement, so as long as a line doesn't end with ; is it considered as a return, like so {let x = 3; x}, which, to be honest is like a hidden return statement
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2018-06-14T09:33:37Z dadabidet: it solves many problems of the unsafety of C/C++/Java, all of this at compile time
2018-06-14T09:34:51Z flip214: so does whitespace - but that alone is not a good enough reason to switch
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2018-06-14T09:35:55Z dadabidet: I think that enforcing safety is a good way to achieve performance... but at least in a world where security matters more, it can be somehow relevant to mozilla
2018-06-14T09:36:00Z flip214: assembler on microcontrollers (anything without a MMU, even) doesn't have NULL pointer exceptions, too - illegal accesses aren't, they just don't return the expected (or, rather, hoped for) data ....
2018-06-14T09:36:47Z dadabidet: what did you mean by "so does whitespace" ?
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2018-06-14T09:38:00Z flip214: the "whitespace" programming language also solves the unsafety of C/C++
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2018-06-14T09:40:09Z dadabidet: ... sure
2018-06-14T09:41:21Z shrdlu68: flip214: ...while maintaining performance.
2018-06-14T09:41:53Z flip214: shrdlu68: I'm fairly sure you can do a compiler for whitespace as well....  ;)
2018-06-14T09:43:36Z shrdlu68: flip214: It has to be fast! And the compiler itself has to be fast as well!
2018-06-14T09:44:24Z flip214: shrdlu68: to stay CL-on-topic here, just use a custom readtable to convert whitespace to CL calls. should be fast enough.
2018-06-14T09:45:04Z shrdlu68: Naw naw naw, has to be as fast as that other language.
2018-06-14T09:46:08Z kuribas: dadabidet: not really
2018-06-14T09:46:44Z kuribas: dadabidet: there is a performance penalty for pure functional programming.
2018-06-14T09:46:55Z kuribas: dadabidet: but it doesn't really matter for most programs
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2018-06-14T09:49:31Z flip214: kuribas: there is? really? always? and I always thought that the most applicable programming variant depends more on your algorithms and data structures...
2018-06-14T09:50:25Z kuribas: flip214: I didn't say otherwise?
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2018-06-14T10:00:41Z flip214: "there is a performance penalty for pure functional programming." isn't always true
2018-06-14T10:01:22Z kuribas: that's right
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2018-06-14T10:12:18Z malice: There are few universal truths.
2018-06-14T10:13:04Z dxtr: Isn't it more complicated to make an efficient functional compiler, though?
2018-06-14T10:13:30Z malice: More complicated than what?
2018-06-14T10:13:45Z dxtr: Than a non-functional compiler?
2018-06-14T10:14:21Z kuribas: dxtr: a compiler is always complicated.  It's just different.
2018-06-14T10:14:53Z dxtr: I'm no compiler expert but I've always assumed that with an imperative compiler you can get away with being pretty naive (Don't have to copy data when it changes, etc)
2018-06-14T10:15:35Z dxtr: With a functional language you can't be that naive and have to do some acrobatics to make stuff efficient
2018-06-14T10:15:41Z malice: if you go naive you aren't fast
2018-06-14T10:16:20Z dxtr: I'm not arguing here, btw. This is just what I have assumed :)
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2018-06-14T10:16:33Z malice: Neither am I :)
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2018-06-14T10:17:23Z dxtr: And what I'm talking about here is a hypothetical super dumb compiler
2018-06-14T10:18:28Z malice: I guess it really depends on the language
2018-06-14T10:18:43Z kuribas: dxtr: a naive imperative compiler is easy.  But doing optimizations in the presence of side-effects is hard.
2018-06-14T10:18:51Z kuribas: (relatively easy)
2018-06-14T10:19:17Z dxtr: Absolutely, I get that
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2018-06-14T10:51:00Z TMA: dxtr: making an optimizing compiler for a functional language is actually easier
2018-06-14T10:52:18Z dxtr: neat
2018-06-14T10:53:44Z jackdaniel: do you suggest, that some languages are disfunctional? ;-)
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2018-06-14T10:54:51Z shka: php comes to mind
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2018-06-14T11:09:00Z beach: Here is an interesting conundrum.  In SICL, I plan to implement a garbage collector with two generations.  The younger generation is per-thread and the older generation is global.  The collector of the older sets a flag in the application threads when it decides to run the GC.  When a thread encounters a safe point, it runs its own young-generation GC and then indicates to the global collector that it has finished.  When all threads
2018-06-14T11:09:00Z beach: have answered, the global GC goes ahead.
2018-06-14T11:09:06Z beach: But a thread can be stopped arbitrarily long, for instance waiting for I/O or some user gesture, or it can be stopped by a debugger thread.  It would be unfortunate if the global collector could not run in such situations.  So would it be OK if a stopped thread can still run the GC?
2018-06-14T11:10:29Z beach: It also means that there must be some restrictions on the places where a thread can be stopped.  It has to be a place that allows for the GC to run.
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2018-06-14T11:11:32Z beach: And that restriction seems to exclude stepping instruction by instruction in the debugger.
2018-06-14T11:11:59Z beach: Unless every value of the program counter is a safe point for GC, of course.
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2018-06-14T11:17:05Z shka: beach: i don't see why preventing GC from running while stepping would be a practical problem though
2018-06-14T11:18:11Z beach: shka: Well, there can be other threads running at the same time, and those threads might allocate memory.
2018-06-14T11:19:04Z shka: ah, i see now
2018-06-14T11:19:23Z LdBeth: beach: how about invoke local GC after waiting and then the main GC just skip the waiting thread
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2018-06-14T11:20:11Z beach: LdBeth: That is not possible, because the waiting thread may have references to objects in the global heap, and the global GC needs to know that they are live.
2018-06-14T11:20:12Z LdBeth: Assuming a thread doesn’t produce new garbage when waiting
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2018-06-14T11:21:11Z beach: That's correct, it won't allocate memory while waiting.
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2018-06-14T11:24:34Z jmercouris: I have a list that looks like the following: (("login" ("username" . "username") ("password" . "password")))
2018-06-14T11:24:48Z jmercouris: I have been using cdr and car derivatives to access the elements
2018-06-14T11:24:59Z jmercouris: is there something that I'm missing? or is there a smarter way to grab the elements?
2018-06-14T11:25:14Z fe[nl]ix: beach: I think you're referring to safepoints
2018-06-14T11:25:56Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Indeed.  But I need to figure out how to GC stopped threads.
2018-06-14T11:26:21Z shka: jmercouris: assoc
2018-06-14T11:26:44Z jmercouris: shka: indeed, thank you
2018-06-14T11:26:45Z beach: shka: Nah, C*R are simpler.
2018-06-14T11:27:01Z beach: If the number of elements is known and the positions are known.
2018-06-14T11:27:08Z beach: No need to search and compare then.
2018-06-14T11:27:09Z jmercouris: number of elements and position is known
2018-06-14T11:27:25Z shka: beach: assoc is more robust to changes
2018-06-14T11:27:31Z jmercouris: also true...
2018-06-14T11:27:43Z shka: there is nothing that suggest that password must be where it is
2018-06-14T11:27:50Z shka: otherwise, it would not have label
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2018-06-14T11:28:04Z jmercouris: it has a label due to caveman
2018-06-14T11:28:08Z jmercouris: the order is always the same
2018-06-14T11:28:10Z shka: oh, ok
2018-06-14T11:28:23Z LdBeth: I would never use list to store things
2018-06-14T11:28:29Z jmercouris: It is not my choice
2018-06-14T11:28:33Z jmercouris: it is this framework's choice
2018-06-14T11:28:36Z jmercouris: I would have used a hash table myself
2018-06-14T11:28:37Z malice: What else would you use list for?
2018-06-14T11:28:44Z malice: jmercouris: why?
2018-06-14T11:28:46Z shka: well, just create aliases to c*r with reasonable names and you are golden
2018-06-14T11:28:49Z malice: list is superior in this case
2018-06-14T11:28:51Z jmercouris: malice: these are key/value pairs
2018-06-14T11:28:58Z malice: So is alist.
2018-06-14T11:29:04Z jmercouris: the overhead of a hash table is greater, for sure, but I don't care
2018-06-14T11:29:17Z LdBeth: malice: only for macro
2018-06-14T11:29:19Z jmercouris: malice: yes, but this is not an alist
2018-06-14T11:29:49Z malice: Right. This is a strange format then.
2018-06-14T11:29:56Z jmercouris: the top level cons cells of this list are each a form, and then the level below that is each question
2018-06-14T11:30:09Z jmercouris: when I say form, I don't mean a lisp form, an html form
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2018-06-14T11:30:19Z malice: List has an advantage of being printable
2018-06-14T11:30:25Z malice: but apart from that hash-table would probably be better
2018-06-14T11:30:42Z malice: LdBeth: I don't really understand
2018-06-14T11:30:49Z LdBeth: A struct is good enough for this case
2018-06-14T11:31:37Z fe[nl]ix: beach: I think the general solution is that all I/O involves safepoints
2018-06-14T11:31:38Z LdBeth: malice: I would only use list in lisp macro
2018-06-14T11:32:07Z fe[nl]ix: bailon: and also waiting on the UI is practically I/O
2018-06-14T11:32:14Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Yes, I think so too.  I am more worried about the debugged thread being stopped.  But I guess I can make those safe as well.
2018-06-14T11:32:28Z malice: LdBeth: idk, lists are easy to use. Using them in macros is very limiting.
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2018-06-14T11:32:57Z fe[nl]ix: beach: I don't think you need to care about those. it's an uncommon use case that won't matter much in practice
2018-06-14T11:33:11Z beach: Hmm.
2018-06-14T11:33:42Z beach: fe[nl]ix: But I am a bit surprised here.  What does it mean for a thread to be stopped?  Is it still OK for such a thread to run the GC?  Or should I fork a different thread to run the GC on behalf of a stopped thread?
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2018-06-14T11:35:53Z fe[nl]ix: beach: a Lisp debugger is just a a function that is called and waits for UI commands. I don't see why it can't GC
2018-06-14T11:37:12Z beach: fe[nl]ix: Each thread is supposed to run its own GC.  But if a thread is stopped, say waiting for I/O (forget about the debugger), is it still OK for it to run its own GC?
2018-06-14T11:38:34Z LdBeth: beach: I don’t think it would affect even there’s a requirement for real time application
2018-06-14T11:38:36Z fe[nl]ix: yes, I can't see why not
2018-06-14T11:38:43Z Ukari: is it possible to refactor a function/macro/variable/class/structure's name in some common lisp develop tool?
2018-06-14T11:38:55Z beach: fe[nl]ix: I think you are right.
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2018-06-14T11:40:20Z beach: LdBeth: It would though.  Imagine a REPL waiting for input for a very long time.  At the same time, there is a thread working on some application that allocates a lot of memory.  The system could then run out of memory just because the GC can't run due to the REPL thread.
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2018-06-14T11:41:38Z flip214: beach: is the architecture so that all threads can access all memory, or can memory be thread-private?
2018-06-14T11:41:59Z flip214: a thread being stopped in the debugger shouldn't be a problem if the stack and all registers are available as GC roots --
2018-06-14T11:42:03Z beach: flip214: Each thread has a small private heap.
2018-06-14T11:42:16Z beach: flip214: Yeah, that's right.
2018-06-14T11:42:18Z flip214: though I'm not sure whether you need to do an exact GC
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2018-06-14T11:42:26Z beach: I do.
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2018-06-14T11:43:01Z flip214: beach: but the thread _asking_ for a GC could just as well take a lock from the non-running (stopped) thread and do GC for it, because the stopped threads' memory is mapped as well, right?
2018-06-14T11:43:02Z beach: flip214: It is more a philosophical question perhaps.  Is it OK for a stopped thread to run some code, or would I have to fork a different thread for that?
2018-06-14T11:43:15Z beach: Yes, you are right.
2018-06-14T11:43:58Z beach: I could have (one of) the global GC tread(s) run the GC on behalf of stopped threads.
2018-06-14T11:43:59Z flip214: basically, I guess that having a lock that's taken as long as the thread is running and having the debugger (and/or IO) release that should work
2018-06-14T11:44:21Z beach: Yes, something like that.
2018-06-14T11:44:29Z flip214: might not be really cachefriendly, but then it might not matter that much for stopped threads
2018-06-14T11:44:45Z beach: I think that's right (that it won't matter).
2018-06-14T11:45:25Z flip214: do you plan to have a thread pool for GC? actively starting new threads to do GC for some thread sounds heavy.
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2018-06-14T11:45:53Z beach: The per-thread GC is invoked by the thread itself.
2018-06-14T11:46:05Z beach: So no additional thread is created for that.
2018-06-14T11:46:21Z flip214: oh, okay. so I misunderstood.
2018-06-14T11:46:24Z beach: The global GC might have a pool, or may create additional threads.  It probably won't matter much.
2018-06-14T11:47:12Z beach: The question was more for a stopped thread.  It would have to be not terribly stopped in order to run its own GC.
2018-06-14T11:47:13Z flip214: I've done quite a bit of work on some green-thread library in C over the last few years - and interrupting IO is a big problem.
2018-06-14T11:47:48Z beach: I see.
2018-06-14T11:47:59Z flip214: well, "not really stopped" means async IO and signals or polling or something similar, and that's all a big hurdle.
2018-06-14T11:48:51Z flip214: it's the same as with FFI - you don't know what's happening, you can't reliably interrupt, so the only safe way seems to have a safepoint (excuse the pun ;)
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2018-06-14T11:49:58Z flip214: that most likely means saving all registers in a per-thread structure to be used as GC roots (although that means some markup being done by the compiler?!), releasing the "running" lock, and doing the foreign call
2018-06-14T11:50:10Z beach: I am not sure I follow.  So do you think it would be better to have one of the global collector threads run the GC on behalf of the stopped thread than to allow for the stopped thread to be unstopped to run the GC?  If I do that, I must prevent the stopped thread from continuing its execution until the GC has finished.
2018-06-14T11:50:21Z flip214: right.
2018-06-14T11:51:00Z flip214: that's why I'm talking about using a lock - so the not-stopped-anymore thread won't crash the right-now-running GC on its private heap.
2018-06-14T11:51:09Z beach: Absolutely.
2018-06-14T11:51:22Z flip214: as far as I can tell, "unstopping" threads is a _really_ hard problem.
2018-06-14T11:51:38Z beach: OK, food for thought.  Thanks for helping me sort this out.
2018-06-14T11:51:40Z flip214: let's say the thread tries to read from a pipe or a socket - how would you "stop" that?
2018-06-14T11:51:48Z flip214: closing the filehandle? ouch.
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2018-06-14T11:52:07Z flip214: sending a signal? you're not likely to know how many bytes already got delivered.
2018-06-14T11:52:30Z flip214: and from non-syscall things (FFI) it might get harder still...
2018-06-14T11:53:11Z beach: I don't think I see the problem.  If a thread is stopped because it is waiting for I/O, why would it be bad to start it so that it can run the GC and then go back to waiting?
2018-06-14T11:53:12Z flip214: perhaps, later on, you'll want or need some "fast FFI" calls as in "they're guaranteed to complete quickly"
2018-06-14T11:53:21Z flip214: to avoid the overhead of releasing the GC lock across them
2018-06-14T11:53:47Z flip214: one thread does the POSIX call "read(15, buffer, 65536)"
2018-06-14T11:53:48Z beach: I think I understand.
2018-06-14T11:53:57Z flip214: how would you interrupt that?
2018-06-14T11:54:05Z beach: I think I see what you mean.
2018-06-14T11:54:07Z jmercouris: beach: wouldn't it have to switch contexts then?
2018-06-14T11:54:28Z jmercouris: if it is waiting for I/O somehow you will have to switch to "GC" mode, while it is in the middle of doing something
2018-06-14T11:54:34Z nirved: GC looks very tricky with multi-core or distributed systems
2018-06-14T11:54:35Z flip214: jmercouris: that's another dimension -- "contexts" as in userspace/kernelspace, or lisp/FFI, ....
2018-06-14T11:54:57Z beach: jmercouris: What kind of "context" are you talking about here?
2018-06-14T11:55:03Z jmercouris: execution context
2018-06-14T11:55:06Z jmercouris: I don't know the word for this
2018-06-14T11:55:09Z jmercouris: I have forgotten it
2018-06-14T11:55:22Z beach: Sure, it would no longer be waiting.
2018-06-14T11:55:23Z flip214: jmercouris: as in "stack pointer, instruction pointer, registers"?
2018-06-14T11:55:24Z jmercouris: like the state of the thread in terms of register values and things like that
2018-06-14T11:55:26Z jmercouris: yes, that
2018-06-14T11:55:39Z beach: But yeah, I am convinced that I don't want to mess with a stopped thread.
2018-06-14T11:55:55Z jmercouris: ah okay, I had understood something else from reading the conversation
2018-06-14T11:56:16Z flip214: beach: do you have empirical data whether the thread-local heap is likely to include references to global data?
2018-06-14T11:56:27Z beach: Very likely.
2018-06-14T11:56:39Z beach: All the long-lived stuff will be in the global heap.
2018-06-14T11:56:49Z beach: All Common Lisp functions.  All Common Lisp packages.
2018-06-14T11:57:01Z flip214: because if you could determine that since the last GC it's only doing "local" allocations that have no global impact, it could tell the global GC to not bother with this local heap
2018-06-14T11:57:17Z beach: flip214: That's not possible.
2018-06-14T11:57:39Z beach: flip214: Any assignment can create a new reference to global data.
2018-06-14T11:57:42Z flip214: yeah, of course, but these are not likely to be released anyway - I'd imagine a (gc :full T :really-full T) flag or so ;)
2018-06-14T11:57:55Z jmercouris: beach: sorry to distract, but how did your language presentation go? how did the participants receive the information?
2018-06-14T11:58:12Z beach: jmercouris: It went very well apparently.
2018-06-14T11:58:24Z beach: flip214: I am lost now.
2018-06-14T11:58:29Z jmercouris: Nice!
2018-06-14T11:58:44Z beach: flip214: Imagine a thread does (setf x (cdr x)).
2018-06-14T11:58:46Z flip214: beach: _can_, yes, but some (for me) typical workloads actually won't... like a hunchentoot thread that just builds up an output stream buffer and reads some global state
2018-06-14T11:58:51Z beach: flip214: X is a reference to global data.
2018-06-14T11:59:05Z flip214: beach: yeah, right.
2018-06-14T11:59:23Z beach: flip214: But one single assignment is enough for things not to work.
2018-06-14T11:59:46Z beach: flip214: Imagine the last reference to the initial list being dropped.
2018-06-14T12:00:00Z beach: flip214: The global GC still needs to know that there is now a reference to the CDR.
2018-06-14T12:00:08Z beach: flip214: It can't just ignore it.
2018-06-14T12:00:13Z flip214: beach: if all of your objects have a heap pointer (yeah, expensive, I know), then you might be able to build up a tree of dependent heaps during allocation
2018-06-14T12:00:38Z flip214: and if one private heap isn't referenced in this tree of heaps, it doesn't need GC (by definition)#
2018-06-14T12:00:38Z beach: flip214: I think the previous idea is better.
2018-06-14T12:01:03Z flip214: well, both might be useful... the fastest GC is one that doesn't happen ;)
2018-06-14T12:01:03Z beach: It needs a GC so that the global heap knows what's live.
2018-06-14T12:01:52Z flip214: sorry, that wasn't clear enough. the global GC doesn't need to wait for that thread to mark global objects if the thread knows that it didn't reference any global objects since the last GC.
2018-06-14T12:02:21Z beach: flip214: But that will happen in almost all cases.
2018-06-14T12:02:50Z beach: flip214: If it calls a function, it will reference its environment.
2018-06-14T12:02:57Z beach: flip214: and its code.
2018-06-14T12:03:17Z beach: Though I guess it was already referenced before.
2018-06-14T12:03:24Z beach: But anyway, I like the previous idea better.
2018-06-14T12:03:43Z flip214: I don't know your use cases. Mine include hunchentoot frontends, which (most of the time) won't have any (changing) references to global data...
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2018-06-14T12:04:10Z flip214: well, these ideas are not exclusive, anyway.
2018-06-14T12:04:18Z beach: Like I said.  (setf x (cdr x)) would be enough.
2018-06-14T12:04:24Z beach: But anyway, I like the previous idea better.
2018-06-14T12:05:02Z flip214: beach: if you allow me a bad pun, interrupting stopped threads might require you to solve the halting problem ;)
2018-06-14T12:05:20Z beach: heh.
2018-06-14T12:05:21Z flip214 goes ta-tsching...
2018-06-14T12:07:20Z beach: flip214: Let me try to summarize to see whether I got this: When a thread is stopped due to I/O, it will wait on a lock before going back to its normal business.  If that lock is taken, it means that there is a thread doing GC on behalf of the one that just got unstopped.  Correct?
2018-06-14T12:08:14Z flip214: right.
2018-06-14T12:08:35Z flip214: but that's not _only_ IO, but could be for _any_ foreign call (like FFI)
2018-06-14T12:08:56Z flip214: though you will want to skip this performance penalty for _known_fast_ FFI calls
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2018-06-14T12:09:43Z beach: Checking a lock has very little performance penalty.
2018-06-14T12:09:44Z shka: beach: i was wondering
2018-06-14T12:09:50Z shka: why just two generations?
2018-06-14T12:10:19Z beach: shka: Because I don't think I need more than that, and more would just complicate things.
2018-06-14T12:10:33Z shka: ok
2018-06-14T12:10:48Z xificurC: ETA on ANSI compliance? :)
2018-06-14T12:11:06Z shka: xificurC: someone between now and forever :P
2018-06-14T12:11:07Z beach: xificurC: For what?
2018-06-14T12:11:15Z flip214: beach: uh, well, if the locks memory is in the RAM of the other socket and causes some L1, L2, and L3 cache areas to be invalidated, it might...
2018-06-14T12:11:16Z xificurC: beach: SICL
2018-06-14T12:11:22Z beach: xificurC: I have no idea.
2018-06-14T12:12:00Z beach: flip214: Well, I don't care.  Your examples (FFI and Web stuff) are not high on my list of important considerations. :)
2018-06-14T12:12:00Z shka: the vanisihing point of eternity ;]
2018-06-14T12:12:46Z flip214: beach: right. no problem at all!
2018-06-14T12:13:20Z beach: flip214: Besides, I'll have much better cache performance than a typical copying collector.
2018-06-14T12:16:03Z flip214: hmmm, I'm not sure about that... making a list's cons cells contiguous in memory during GC has a few nice performance implications, which keeping the cells distributed over multiple (private) heaps doesn't
2018-06-14T12:16:13Z flip214: but never mind that low-level stuff for now
2018-06-14T12:16:39Z flip214: perhaps all the CPUs in 5 to 10 years won't have that fancy stuff any more anyway, because of all the possible exploits
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2018-06-14T12:47:47Z mansalss: hey I need a list of words from official Polish Scrabble dictionary. They are available in two forms: in the official Windows app (offline) and in online service. They both deliver an option to check word(s) and find words by anagrams.
2018-06-14T12:47:59Z mansalss: I want to create a tool for myself to become better Scrabble player, but I need to have a full list of words. I have no experience in reverse engineering. I think the best we can do here is to use this offline dictionary and find out how it works. All I know is that it's most likely encrypted in some way.
2018-06-14T12:48:10Z mansalss: Link to the app: ufile.io/knwxt
2018-06-14T12:48:29Z mansalss: Can you guys help me with this?
2018-06-14T12:48:35Z jdz: mansalss: this is #lisp, not #radare2
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2018-06-14T12:48:38Z jmercouris: mansalss: what does this have to do with #lisp?
2018-06-14T12:49:04Z mansalss: It cant be done in lisp no?
2018-06-14T12:49:15Z mansalss: Isnt lisp a good language for it?
2018-06-14T12:49:31Z jdz: Not if you have no experience in it.
2018-06-14T12:49:43Z jmercouris: Any language is equally suited to this task
2018-06-14T12:49:49Z jmercouris: with the exception of may something like SED
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2018-06-14T12:50:41Z xificurC: what is #radare2
2018-06-14T12:50:56Z jdz: I (probably fictional) channel for Radare2.
2018-06-14T12:52:54Z jackdaniel: first of all, coercing copyrighted material that way is illegal (in Poland you can't freely break DRM or any sort of security measures in copyrighted material), second it is offtopic for Lisp – sure you can create dictionary-managing engine in Lisp if that's your question, third – I'd recommend building your dictionary on free licenses, like the one present on sjp.pl
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2018-06-14T12:54:05Z jmercouris: another idea might be, find all polish books on project gutenberg, and create your own dictionary. As far as I understand, you don't need the definitions as well, do you?
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2018-06-14T12:54:38Z jackdaniel: that would be counterproductive given I've linked full dictionary which is ready to use
2018-06-14T12:57:08Z jmercouris: I didn't know that, I can't read what it says on that page
2018-06-14T12:57:18Z jmercouris: sorry for the double post
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2018-06-14T13:09:44Z mansalss: <jackdaniel> that would be counterproductive given I've linked full dictionary which is ready to use
2018-06-14T13:09:49Z mansalss: Where is the link?
2018-06-14T13:09:57Z shka: sjp.pl
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2018-06-14T13:11:02Z mansalss: Did you guys look at the app?
2018-06-14T13:11:47Z shka: mansalss: https://sjp.pl/slownik/growy/sjp-20180612.zip
2018-06-14T13:12:04Z shka: literally scrabble dictionary in utf-8 encoded file
2018-06-14T13:12:14Z shka: CC BY 4.0
2018-06-14T13:12:41Z mansalss: Isn't lisp good for AI?
2018-06-14T13:12:54Z shka: you can use it without scraping web or hacking other programs
2018-06-14T13:13:01Z shka: mansalss: I... give up
2018-06-14T13:13:27Z mansalss: shka, thankyou for that
2018-06-14T13:13:36Z mansalss: ill have a look
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2018-06-14T13:18:17Z mansalss: Reverseing seems more fun though
2018-06-14T13:18:37Z mansalss: How would you do it with that given dicitionary?
2018-06-14T13:19:56Z jackdaniel: mansalss: please stay on-topic on this channel
2018-06-14T13:20:03Z xificurC: jackdaniel already pointed out what you were (or still are) trying to do is illegal. Furthermore this is not a place to discuss reverse engineering
2018-06-14T13:20:09Z beach: mansalss: I think you were told that it's illegal.
2018-06-14T13:20:22Z mansalss: fairo
2018-06-14T13:20:50Z Bike: good morning. exciting times here, i see
2018-06-14T13:20:55Z mansalss: I live in Cambodia
2018-06-14T13:21:05Z mansalss: But yeah whatever
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2018-06-14T13:21:21Z mansalss: ill stay on topic
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2018-06-14T13:21:54Z mansalss: <mansalss> How would you do it with that given dicitionary? <shka> mansalss: https://sjp.pl/slownik/growy/sjp-20180612.zip
2018-06-14T13:22:09Z mansalss: In lisp
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2018-06-14T13:22:15Z mansalss: is that offtopic or?
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2018-06-14T13:22:42Z jackdaniel: it is offtopic, unless you are willing to learn common lisp and figure that out
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2018-06-14T13:22:46Z jackdaniel: minion: tell mansalss about gentle
2018-06-14T13:22:47Z minion: mansalss: please look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2018-06-14T13:23:38Z mansalss: ok so my library is just about as helpful
2018-06-14T13:23:40Z mansalss: thanks
2018-06-14T13:24:50Z mansalss: Bike, are you in #esoteric?
2018-06-14T13:24:55Z jackdaniel: you could also benefit from reading this essay http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html (and this is offtopic on my side, sorry about that)
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2018-06-14T13:25:01Z jackdaniel: mansalss: last warning
2018-06-14T13:25:10Z mansalss: If so can you please unban me
2018-06-14T13:25:16Z ChanServ has set mode +o jackdaniel
2018-06-14T13:25:19Z mansalss: My bans been on for over 5 years now
2018-06-14T13:25:21Z Bike: Wow bud, way to make your case
2018-06-14T13:25:21Z mansalss [~jackdanie@hellsgate.pl] has been kicked from #lisp by jackdaniel (mansalss)
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2018-06-14T13:27:17Z mansalss: Bike, can I PM you then
2018-06-14T13:33:05Z beach: flip214: I still have to work out the details of the synchronization handshakes.
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2018-06-14T13:33:39Z beach: flip214: I might ask for help if I can't work it out, and I might ask for remarks on what I write if I do think I can work it out.
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2018-06-14T14:24:43Z jmercouris: I am reading "Gentle introduction to symbolic lisp" and one of the questions has thrown me off guard "Why can't the special symbols T or NIL be used as variables in a function definition?
2018-06-14T14:24:55Z jmercouris: My answer was because we are not allowed to evaluate the arguments used in a function definition
2018-06-14T14:25:04Z jmercouris: but somehow I don't think that captures the full essence
2018-06-14T14:25:53Z jmercouris: further, we need to, when invoking the function assign the symbols to a variable based on the value passed in, this is not possible for T or NIL
2018-06-14T14:26:03Z jmercouris: I don't think you can set them
2018-06-14T14:26:46Z jmercouris: I guess it is the same reason we cannot use numbers in argument lists
2018-06-14T14:27:30Z Bike: it's because they're constants.
2018-06-14T14:27:57Z jmercouris: that's what I would have said, but they have not introduced that concept yet in the book
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2018-06-14T14:28:14Z jmercouris: so apparently, somehow some way, given the knowledge already introduced in the book, someone should know the answer to the question at that point in time
2018-06-14T14:28:37Z jmercouris: maybe they've said it and I missed it
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2018-06-14T14:40:57Z jmercouris: (cons 'grapes '(of wrath))
2018-06-14T14:41:01Z jmercouris: damnit wrong window, sorry lol
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2018-06-14T14:49:42Z Ukari: i wanna use with-macro in defmacro, but found it is hard to write the inner macro due to write (list 'fn ,arg) instead of `(fn ,arg)
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2018-06-14T14:52:41Z Xach: Ukari: nested backquoting is the thing to which some resort
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2018-06-14T15:17:17Z Ukari: i write (defmacro logger (&body body) `(print (+ ,@body))) (defmacro outside (&body body) `(defmacro inside () `(logger ,,@body))), (outside 1 2), (inside)
2018-06-14T15:17:24Z Ukari: how ,,@body works
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2018-06-14T15:18:22Z Ukari: which happen first to body? , or ,@
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2018-06-14T15:29:23Z flip214: beach: yes, please! I'd love to be of help!
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2018-06-14T15:43:49Z beach: flip214: Great!  Thanks!
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2018-06-14T15:53:19Z fouric: Ukari: i'm pretty sure that ,@ happens first
2018-06-14T15:54:44Z beach: Ukari: Why are you defining a macro in the body of a macro?
2018-06-14T15:55:02Z Ukari: fouric: thanks you anyway,  though i still can't image how it happens
2018-06-14T15:55:25Z fouric: Ukari: you're not sure if you believe me (don't worry, i'm not sure either) or you believe me you just don't know *why*?
2018-06-14T15:55:38Z fouric: i might be able to help in the latter case lol
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2018-06-14T15:56:06Z fouric: at least with your last question
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2018-06-14T15:56:53Z Ukari: i don't know why , the result of (macroexpand-1 '(outside 1 2)) is weird
2018-06-14T15:57:29Z fouric: o
2018-06-14T15:57:43Z fouric: i don't quite have the mental bandwidth to help with *that* right now
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2018-06-14T15:57:57Z fouric: although i can suggest the strategy that i would use to understand it
2018-06-14T15:58:16Z fouric: which is to start with the innermost level of backquotes, try to understand that, and then work your way up/out
2018-06-14T15:58:58Z Ukari: beach, this is one of my condition, https://tinyurl.com/y8t27qoj. another is to make macro yield accessable locally instead of global
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2018-06-14T16:01:06Z beach: Ukari: That's very different.  You are defining a macro with the same name each time, namely INSIDE.
2018-06-14T16:01:37Z beach: The link you provided defines a macro with a name that depends on an argument.
2018-06-14T16:01:52Z Ukari: yes
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2018-06-14T16:02:29Z beach: Local macros are defined using MACROLET and not DEFMACRO if that is what you are trying to do.
2018-06-14T16:02:53Z Ukari: it provides a defmacro* which returns a generator and also has lambda list arguements like defmacro
2018-06-14T16:03:32Z beach: I don't think I am smart enough today to follow what you are trying to say.  Sorry about that.
2018-06-14T16:03:46Z beach: I should not have asked you a question in the first place.
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2018-06-14T16:04:57Z Ukari: do not blame yourself, you have done good job
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2018-06-14T16:28:07Z u92urksvz78: anyone out there care to share what kind of interesting CL projects they are currently working on?
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2018-06-14T16:29:20Z u92urksvz78: anyone out there care to share any details about any interesting Common Lisp programming projects they are currently working on?
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2018-06-14T17:47:16Z gendl: Hi, i'm working on some interesting CL projects based on http://gendl.org,  don't have a lot of time to share details right now though.
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2018-06-14T17:47:47Z gendl: I do have a question though -- if I have an error object in a variable (like from a handler-case), how can I get a stack trace of that actual error?
2018-06-14T17:48:18Z gendl: like (handler-case (some-form) (error (err)    ;; now I want to get into the debugger directly for err .  ...
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2018-06-14T17:49:36Z nirved: gendl: invoke-debugger ?
2018-06-14T17:51:31Z gendl: nirved: well, yep, that does give a debugger, it seems pretty much the same as just calling (error err)
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2018-06-14T17:52:24Z gendl: in the stack, I'm still seeing let bindings and such which are connected with the handler-bind
2018-06-14T17:52:42Z gendl: (handler-case (div 1 0) (error (err) (error err)))
2018-06-14T17:52:53Z gendl: looks pretty much the same as
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2018-06-14T17:53:02Z gendl: (handler-case (div 1 0) (error (err) (invoke-debugger err)))
2018-06-14T17:53:20Z gendl: what I really want is a debug stack which would be the same as what I would get just from
2018-06-14T17:53:23Z gendl: (div 1 0)
2018-06-14T17:53:45Z gendl: [sorry -- replace 'div' with '/' -- 'div' is our operator which always returns double-floats)
2018-06-14T17:54:14Z Bike: what do you want to do with the backtrace? just display it, or?
2018-06-14T17:54:27Z gendl: want to type :zoom and debug with it
2018-06-14T17:54:38Z Bike: lisp implementations don't usually store a backtrace in the condition object, as far as i'm aware
2018-06-14T17:55:40Z nirved: gendl: you can get a list of the available restarts
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2018-06-14T18:11:03Z nirved: gendl: if you really must have the backtrace, it is implementation dependent, look at slime/swank
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2018-06-14T18:13:05Z gendl: I know there's a library trivial-backtrace
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2018-06-14T18:29:39Z rpg: I'm embarrassed to ask this, but does anyone have an example of an ASDF system definition that quashes warnings to avoid failures? I have been using Allegro, whose COMPILE-FILE doesn't fail (as it properly should) on warnings, and now using SBCL, I can't get compile-system to work...
2018-06-14T18:30:30Z Xach: rpg: there's a special variable you can frob
2018-06-14T18:30:52Z Xach: rpg: compile-file-warnings-behavior
2018-06-14T18:30:53Z rpg: I thought *compile-file-warnings-behaviour* was that variable, but seemingly not...
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2018-06-14T18:33:28Z rpg: at least using a perform around method for compile-op on a particular file.
2018-06-14T18:34:06Z rpg: or the :PERFORM form didn't work...
2018-06-14T18:34:56Z rpg: Actually even SETFing this variable to :ignore in the REPL didn't make this go.
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2018-06-14T18:40:55Z rpg: I tried muffle-warning, but it looks like compile-file may grab up the warning and fail before I can muffle it....
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2018-06-14T18:44:04Z rpg: Xach: I believe it's that SBCL's COMPILE-FILE is refusing to write an output file, not that there are warnings.  At least, I *think* so.
2018-06-14T18:44:57Z rpg: yes, the OUTPUT variable is NIL.
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2018-06-14T18:51:05Z rpg: Xach: Tried :AROUND-COMPILE, too, but no dice.
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2018-06-14T19:06:35Z rpg: Xach: Aha! *SOMETHING* is rebinding those error interpretation flags, so that they are both valued :ERROR inside COMPILE-FILE*
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2018-06-14T19:22:59Z rpg: hahaha. OK, I see part of the problem -- the AROUND-COMPILE-HOOK isn't scoped around the checking of those flag variables.
2018-06-14T19:24:52Z rpg: no wait -- it looks like things are checked twice.
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2018-06-14T19:37:00Z rpg: Yes, that's it -- you can bind the behaviours in an around-compile-hook, but that isn't scoped around check-lisp-compiler-warnings
2018-06-14T19:39:41Z Xach: good lord
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2018-06-14T20:47:41Z dxtr: What is the point of putting the keywords as :|foo| in plists?
2018-06-14T20:48:07Z Bike: the || is escape syntax that keeps the symbol name as it is
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2018-06-14T20:48:19Z Bike: (symbol-name :foo) => "FOO", (symbol-name :|foo|) => "foo"
2018-06-14T20:48:39Z dxtr: Hmm, right
2018-06-14T20:49:44Z dxtr: So I've got a plist (:|foo| 1 :|bar| 2) - and neither (get :bar) nor (get :|bar|) works
2018-06-14T20:49:50Z dxtr: How should I do it?
2018-06-14T20:50:06Z dxtr: (get 'bar) doesn't work either
2018-06-14T20:50:20Z dxtr: "doesn't work" in this case means "it returns nil"
2018-06-14T20:50:24Z dxtr: Can't find aynthing
2018-06-14T20:50:25Z dxtr: anything*
2018-06-14T20:50:41Z jackdaniel: if you look for an element in a plist, use getf, not get
2018-06-14T20:50:49Z jackdaniel: the latter is quite a different beast
2018-06-14T20:51:09Z Xach: well, it works on a symbol's plist, so they're cousins?
2018-06-14T20:51:28Z dxtr: Ooh
2018-06-14T20:51:32Z jackdaniel: sure, like a kitten and a lion ;-)
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2018-06-14T21:12:00Z aeth: Has anyone used symbol plists?
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2018-06-14T21:12:30Z Xach: aeth: yes
2018-06-14T21:12:39Z aeth: where?
2018-06-14T21:12:58Z aeth: (if in quicklisp then I guess technically everyone has)
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2018-06-14T21:14:02Z Xach: aeth: pcl mentions a use of them, iirc it stores some reader/writer information in the symbol plist. or you could use it in an interpreter to store the value bound to the symbol. there are other things!
2018-06-14T21:14:19Z Xach: i don't use them often and can't think of when i used them, but it's a way to associate a bit of your own app data with a symbol
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2018-06-14T21:19:37Z pjb: aeth: (length (remove-if-not (function symbol-plist) (let (l) (dolist (p (list-all-packages) (remove-duplicates l)) (do-symbols (s p) (push s l)))))) #| --> 306 |#
2018-06-14T21:19:39Z fouric: i guess that you could store metadata about the function bound to the symbol?
2018-06-14T21:20:58Z pjb: (length  (remove-duplicates (mapcan (lambda (s) (loop for k on (symbol-plist s) by 'cddr collect k)) (let (l) (dolist (p (list-all-packages) (remove-duplicates l)) (do-symbols (s p) (push s l))))))) #| --> 519 |#
2018-06-14T21:21:13Z Xach: so many things you could do!
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2018-06-14T21:30:06Z pjb: aeth: (remove-duplicates (mapcan (lambda (s) (loop for (k nil) on (symbol-plist s) by #'cddr collect k))  (let (l) (dolist (p (list-all-packages) (remove-duplicates l)) (do-symbols (s p) (push s l)))))) #| --> (com.informatimago.common-lisp.data.constant:unit com.informatimago.common-lisp.data.constant::physical-constant swank/backend::implementation swank/backend::default optima.core:pattern-expand-function) |#
2018-06-14T21:30:17Z pjb: aeth: run the same, in a fully loaded image.
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2018-06-14T21:42:53Z mfiano: aeth: Iterate uses symbol plists for its synonyms
2018-06-14T21:44:42Z mfiano: For example, inspect the symbol ITER:COLLECTING
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2018-06-14T23:32:39Z granttrec: does lisp have good build tools? I'm interested in learning a functional language but with experience from previous languages I'd appreciate a simple build tools
2018-06-14T23:37:56Z pillton: granttrec: Common lisp is a multi-paradigm language. ASDF (https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/) is what most people use to build common lisp software.
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2018-06-14T23:41:35Z granttrec: pillton: what's you experience with it? painless or takes some adjusting?
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2018-06-14T23:42:57Z pillton: I have been using it for nearly 10 years. It is pretty good.
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2018-06-14T23:49:26Z pillton: You will probably have a hard time adjusting to the fact that compilation can mutate the global environment.
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2018-06-14T23:58:18Z granttrec: pillton: aside from clojure, how do I decide which implementation is for me?
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2018-06-14T23:58:35Z granttrec: the benefits of clojure are easier to see than other dialects btw
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2018-06-14T23:59:53Z Xach: sbcl is a good one to start with.
2018-06-14T23:59:59Z akkad: granttrec: it's like picking a religion. one can convert you, or you can see the light on your own. build something trivial in each, and figure out which one fits your style best
2018-06-15T00:00:02Z Xach: it has many users who can help with specific issues
2018-06-15T00:00:30Z akkad: ahh cl implementation. yeah sbcl is pretty much it.
2018-06-15T00:00:31Z pillton: granttrec: This channel is about common lisp. Clojure is not an implementation of common lisp.
2018-06-15T00:00:50Z granttrec: akkad: well this is going to be fun :)
2018-06-15T00:01:41Z akkad: At the request of John McCarthy, Lisp’s creator, no single language that is a member of the Lisp family is to be intended to be the definitive dialect; that is, none is to be called just “LISP.”
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2018-06-15T00:01:52Z akkad: but we said "he's dead, let's violate this request"
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2018-06-15T00:06:08Z akkad: there is a page that shows the differences between the lisps. to give you a feel for it
2018-06-15T00:08:06Z akkad: granttrec: http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp
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2018-06-15T00:08:29Z granttrec: akkad: thanks that is very useful
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2018-06-15T00:10:00Z granttrec: akkad: not be to off topic but do peopel program in emaxs lisp outside of hacking the editor?
2018-06-15T00:10:34Z Xach: that is a question for #emacs
2018-06-15T00:11:19Z akkad: yeah that channel is never on topic. :P
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2018-06-15T00:11:41Z akkad: granttrec: #lispcafe too
2018-06-15T00:12:42Z LdBeth: That’s not Donald Kurth and TeX
2018-06-15T00:13:17Z LdBeth: akkad: I never heard such a claimer
2018-06-15T00:13:33Z akkad: LdBeth: what claimer?
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2018-06-15T00:14:14Z akkad: google it
2018-06-15T00:14:28Z aeth: akkad: This comes up from time to time. Afaik, the historical Lisps that led up to Common Lisp like Maclisp and Lisp Machine Lisp are also on topic in #lisp, it's just that obviously they come up much less frequently.
2018-06-15T00:14:37Z aeth: So it's not 100% exclusively Common Lisp.
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2018-06-15T00:15:31Z akkad: but cl is what's on topic here, no?
2018-06-15T00:15:44Z akkad: and not even ALL cl, just sbcl
2018-06-15T00:15:46Z aeth: Since most modern Lisps deviate significantly from the tradition (Common Lisp represents the tradition + an object system), there isn't really the demand for a channel that just involves Lisps in general. There is one, ##lisp is its name, and it was (when I was in it) quite dead. #scheme is similarly not very active compared to the individual Scheme channels.
2018-06-15T00:15:56Z aeth: Broad topic channels are only of interest to language implementors, really.
2018-06-15T00:16:00Z LdBeth: akkad: John McCarthy and the name LISP
2018-06-15T00:16:19Z akkad: LdBeth: google it
2018-06-15T00:16:41Z akkad: or better yet. http://islisp.info/faq.html
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2018-06-15T00:17:12Z aeth: akkad: As I said, and you might get a different answer depending on who's on, last time this came up and I was here, people said that precursor languages to CL are on topic. And I have shared historic Lisp material here before iirc.
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2018-06-15T00:18:05Z aeth: Common Lisp represents a Lisp tradition that very few other living Lisps follow. Maybe Emacs Lisp. Scheme is probably the next closest, if you ignore that it renamed practically every procedure and has slightly different terminology (like "procedure", "pair" instead of "cons", etc.)
2018-06-15T00:18:15Z akkad got asked to not mention allegro or lispworks here
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2018-06-15T00:18:45Z aeth: akkad: Implementation-specific issues go to implementation-specific channels. I go to #sbcl when I have a question about an SBCL extension or something.
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2018-06-15T00:19:19Z aeth: Also, CCL is quite popular here.
2018-06-15T00:20:29Z LdBeth: Okay I see
2018-06-15T00:22:33Z pillton: Why would Lispworks and Allegro CL be offtopic here?
2018-06-15T00:22:40Z aeth: If there was a survey here, it'd probably be 60% SBCL and 30% CCL. 2:1 is a lot, but that's the impression I get here. Other methods seem to suggest perhaps 10:1 SBCL:CCL, so if anything CCLers are overrepresented here. (Concrete numbers would be hard to obtain, though.)
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2018-06-15T00:24:57Z aeth: pillton: I'm guessing akkad is referring to a LW-specific or Allegro-specific question
2018-06-15T00:27:06Z pillton: aeth: OK. Fair enough.
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2018-06-15T00:29:30Z akkad: pillton: was told they were not opensource, thus off topic for freenode. despite the fact that the ##lisp would be the "opensource" channel
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2018-06-15T00:35:32Z pillton: Hmm, that seems a bit unfair.
2018-06-15T00:37:55Z akkad: </qq>
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2018-06-15T01:18:39Z pierpa: uh?  so the topic of this channel is "common lisp except lispworks and allegro"?
2018-06-15T01:19:15Z Bike: well, the idea is that freenode is for open source stuff.
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2018-06-15T01:19:48Z Bike: and regardless of that, it seems likely that you can get better specific advice about lispworks and allegro from their official mailing lists and help lines and such.
2018-06-15T01:20:09Z pierpa: yeah, let's alienate some of the 12 cl programmers that remain in the world.
2018-06-15T01:21:35Z Xach: pierpa: Some feel more strongly about the freenode conditions of use than others.
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2018-06-15T01:22:00Z Xach: This is not a great place for discussion of allegro and lispworks mostly because there are few users here, but partly because it is not what freenode is for.
2018-06-15T01:22:06Z Xach: The former dominates the latter.
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2018-06-15T02:10:26Z akkad: and freenode, as defined by rob was for ## to be for the opensource, and # to not be
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2018-06-15T02:11:00Z Bike: where did you hear that?
2018-06-15T02:11:14Z Bike: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/namespaces this thing says something else
2018-06-15T02:11:24Z akkad: umm... Freenode policy since rob converted from linpeople.org to freenode back in 99
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2018-06-15T02:15:37Z akkad: oh I see.
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2018-06-15T02:24:19Z akkad: how things have changed. Aug 02 15:30:47 2002 #lisp            67      The open source lisp-wiki:  http://ww.telent.net/cliki/ - sbcl 0.7.6 out - clisp 2.29 out - new site: www.lispworks.com
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2018-06-15T02:25:49Z fkac: Ew clisp
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2018-06-15T03:21:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-15T03:36:11Z akkad: hey beach
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2018-06-15T03:41:21Z makomo: beach: morning!
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2018-06-15T03:52:57Z Ober: beach: hi.
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2018-06-15T04:15:36Z LdBeth: Is it possible to specify type for certain symbols, e.g. for symbol 'YES and 'NO, they have type 'Y-OR-N
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2018-06-15T04:16:09Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-15T04:16:13Z pillton: Sure: (typep 'yes '(member yes no))
2018-06-15T04:16:51Z LdBeth: Thanks
2018-06-15T04:16:55Z pillton: Then you can use deftype to create 'y-or-n. (deftype y-or-n () '(member yes no))
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2018-06-15T04:21:17Z LdBeth: So can I add or del symbols to that type defined
2018-06-15T04:22:25Z pillton: Absolutely. At runtime if you wish as well.
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2018-06-15T04:25:09Z LdBeth: Seems I can use a function to check the type and then hack that function
2018-06-15T04:26:01Z pillton: What are you trying to do?
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2018-06-15T04:29:57Z LdBeth: I want to write a TCG card game, there’s certain attributes I want to check if is valid at runtime and retain the ability adding new attributes
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2018-06-15T04:32:57Z on_ion: cool =)
2018-06-15T04:35:32Z beach: It doesn't sound like using types would be good for situations like that.
2018-06-15T04:37:39Z LdBeth: beach: yes, so I use instance and do after initialize check currently
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2018-06-15T04:42:06Z beach: LdBeth: Do you have some code to show us?
2018-06-15T04:42:54Z LdBeth: Wait a minute plz
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2018-06-15T04:49:45Z LdBeth: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/THJPhMwm9v/
2018-06-15T04:50:38Z LdBeth: I use Fset for collections
2018-06-15T04:52:54Z LdBeth go for lunch
2018-06-15T04:53:00Z beach: I see a lot of potential clashes with Common Lisp symbols.
2018-06-15T04:53:11Z beach: But I guess you shadow them in your package definition.
2018-06-15T04:57:20Z beach: And I guess I don't see the purpose of the new metaclass, but that's probably normal, since I don't understand what the code is doing.
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2018-06-15T05:03:20Z LdBeth: beach: I use metaclass because I want to avoid introducing a lot of global variables. That additional slot of metaclass stores allowed content
2018-06-15T05:04:01Z LdBeth: Maybe it’s a abuse.
2018-06-15T05:07:32Z LdBeth: (defdata foo '(a b c))
2018-06-15T05:07:36Z LdBeth: (make-instance 'foo :content a) ;; => valid
2018-06-15T05:08:12Z LdBeth: (make-instance 'foo :content 'g) ;; error
2018-06-15T05:08:29Z LdBeth: Umm, I missed a quote for a
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2018-06-15T05:11:25Z beach: Why can't that just be a slot with :allocation :class?
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2018-06-15T05:19:08Z beach: Anyway, I should quit pestering you, since I don't really understand the code.
2018-06-15T05:21:09Z LdBeth: Never mind, just a personal interested project.
2018-06-15T05:22:42Z LdBeth: beach: I didn’t noticed :allocation. Seems to be a good idea
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2018-06-15T07:30:09Z shka: does clrhash in sbcl actually frees the memory?
2018-06-15T07:30:23Z beach: It can't.
2018-06-15T07:30:53Z beach: ... other than perhaps the fairly small amount of memory for the has table itself.
2018-06-15T07:31:02Z beach: But it probably doesn't bother.
2018-06-15T07:31:18Z beach: Otherwise, keys and values can be shared, so it can't free that memory.
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2018-06-15T07:50:40Z shka: beach: well, maybe i should rephrase my question
2018-06-15T07:51:11Z shka: by freeing memory i thinked about hash-table-size
2018-06-15T07:51:16Z shka: but i can actually check that
2018-06-15T07:51:36Z beach: Oh, that's different.
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2018-06-15T07:51:51Z shka: it is
2018-06-15T07:51:58Z shka: i think it shouldn't
2018-06-15T07:52:11Z shka: because it would not be different from making fresh hash-table
2018-06-15T07:52:23Z shka: besides maybe convinience
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2018-06-15T07:55:01Z beach: And preserving identity.
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2018-06-15T07:55:58Z jackdaniel: from the "under the hood" perspective it is different. clrhash mutates hashtable object, while creating fesh hash-table constructs whole new one
2018-06-15T07:56:24Z beach: That's what I meant by preserving identity.
2018-06-15T07:56:31Z jackdaniel: also if you have more references to that hashtable in your program, then clrhash will clear all of them
2018-06-15T07:56:36Z jackdaniel: yes
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2018-06-15T07:58:37Z jackdaniel: s/all of them/"all of them"/
2018-06-15T07:59:53Z shka: obviously
2018-06-15T08:00:06Z shka: but rehashing is killing me
2018-06-15T08:00:37Z shka: and I am sure that i won't need smaller hash-table
2018-06-15T08:01:20Z shka: so what bothers me are internals
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2018-06-15T08:04:00Z jackdaniel: if you set integer as rehash size, then you should avoid frequent rehashing
2018-06-15T08:04:11Z jackdaniel: given I understand correctly your dillema
2018-06-15T08:04:42Z jackdaniel: (of you should know beforehand what this integer value should be)
2018-06-15T08:04:46Z jackdaniel: of course*
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2018-06-15T08:09:26Z shka: jackdaniel: that sounds reasonable
2018-06-15T08:10:29Z shka: jackdaniel: thanks
2018-06-15T08:10:43Z jackdaniel: sure
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2018-06-15T09:49:12Z jmercouris: has anyone deployed a lisp webserver using apache?
2018-06-15T09:49:25Z jmercouris: rather, has anyone in this channel done so, or know of a guide illustrating how to do so?
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2018-06-15T09:51:28Z thodg: jmercouris: yes with fastcgi
2018-06-15T09:51:54Z thodg: or you can proxy requests to hunchentoot
2018-06-15T09:52:06Z thodg: nginx works too
2018-06-15T09:52:55Z thodg: best is a reverse caching proxy for your app server
2018-06-15T09:53:12Z thodg: and nginx is perfect for that but apache works too
2018-06-15T09:53:42Z thodg: configuration should be the same for lisp or other app servers
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2018-06-15T09:58:14Z jmercouris: thodg: Right fine, but what does the config look like?
2018-06-15T09:58:53Z jmercouris: maybe this is more of an apache question
2018-06-15T09:59:12Z thodg: yes, a search for "apache reverse caching proxy" should give good results
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2018-06-15T09:59:37Z thodg: or just reverse proxy
2018-06-15T09:59:52Z thodg: but i don't know what kind of lisp endpoint you have
2018-06-15T10:00:23Z jmercouris: It's a caveman2 application
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2018-06-15T10:44:27Z varjag: ok, got cl-http2-protocol running again, but servers refuse to negoitate to h2
2018-06-15T10:44:42Z varjag: guess at this point one has to learn nooks and crannies of http/2
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2018-06-15T11:42:55Z flip214: does somebody know of a higher-level interface to Ethereum than https://github.com/tsikov/ethi? something like https://web3py.readthedocs.io/en/stable/contracts.html or so?
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2018-06-15T11:52:06Z jmercouris: flip214: I believe there is a lisp version somewhere
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2018-06-15T12:53:40Z jmercouris: can someone explain how (list 'quote 'foo) -> 'FOO ?
2018-06-15T12:53:53Z jmercouris: I imagine it would do (quote foo)
2018-06-15T12:54:04Z jmercouris: which I would thereafter imagine would become just FOO
2018-06-15T12:54:53Z jmercouris: ah I get it
2018-06-15T12:55:00Z jmercouris: because 'FOO is shorthand for (quote foo)
2018-06-15T12:59:37Z Xach: jes
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2018-06-15T13:05:39Z jmercouris: I have to say I really prefer (quote x) than 'x
2018-06-15T13:05:57Z shka: jmercouris: you will grow out of it
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2018-06-15T13:06:07Z jmercouris: maybe
2018-06-15T13:06:49Z jackdaniel: left-parenthesis quote x right-parenthesis ; beats all ;)
2018-06-15T13:07:01Z jmercouris: you can type out left-parenthesis?
2018-06-15T13:07:14Z jmercouris: damnit, I just tried it in my repl lo
2018-06-15T13:07:17Z jmercouris: you got me lol
2018-06-15T13:07:27Z jmercouris: I guess one could define a macro
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2018-06-15T13:09:58Z jmercouris: are symbols objects?
2018-06-15T13:10:06Z shka: yes, why not?
2018-06-15T13:10:15Z jmercouris: I don't see why not
2018-06-15T13:10:17Z jmercouris: I was just wondering
2018-06-15T13:10:21Z jmercouris: it seems like they would be
2018-06-15T13:10:22Z shka: sure they are
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2018-06-15T13:11:02Z jmercouris: is the function pointed to by a symbol stored in a slot of that symbol?
2018-06-15T13:11:15Z jackdaniel: symbol is a built-in class
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2018-06-15T13:11:45Z jackdaniel: it means that it doesn't have to be a standard-class
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2018-06-15T13:11:47Z jmercouris: when we assign a variable to a symbol, are we instantiating a new object of the class symbol?
2018-06-15T13:12:16Z phoe: jmercouris: wait
2018-06-15T13:12:20Z phoe: assign a variable to a symbol?
2018-06-15T13:12:26Z phoe: variables have nothing to do with object instantiation
2018-06-15T13:12:30Z jackdaniel: built-in class means: we pretened it is a class, but in fact it is internal datatype with shoehoerned aspects allowing dispatch on it
2018-06-15T13:12:32Z phoe: or symbol instantiation
2018-06-15T13:12:44Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: Ok, that is good to know, I'll put that in my notes thank you
2018-06-15T13:12:46Z phoe: symbols are usually created at read-time
2018-06-15T13:13:04Z jmercouris: well for example, when we enter a function body
2018-06-15T13:13:09Z jmercouris: we are assigning a symbol to some variable value
2018-06-15T13:13:17Z Bike: no
2018-06-15T13:13:18Z phoe: jmercouris: yes, but the symbols are already created by that time
2018-06-15T13:13:18Z Bike: what
2018-06-15T13:13:19Z jmercouris: like (defun funk (x) ...)
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2018-06-15T13:13:40Z jmercouris: phoe: I see
2018-06-15T13:13:41Z phoe: jmercouris: do you know how the REPL works?
2018-06-15T13:13:45Z phoe: and at which point what happens?
2018-06-15T13:13:47Z Bike: you sound very confused
2018-06-15T13:13:52Z jmercouris: phoe: No, not really
2018-06-15T13:13:59Z Bike: "assigning a symbol" and "variable value" are both kind of meaningless
2018-06-15T13:14:07Z phoe: jmercouris: then do figure that out.
2018-06-15T13:14:11Z jmercouris: I've only read PCL which wasn't very helpful
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2018-06-15T13:14:21Z jmercouris: I'm going cover to cover now on Gentle introduction to symbolic
2018-06-15T13:14:29Z phoe: at read-time, the string "(defun funk (x) ...)" gets turned into a list
2018-06-15T13:14:46Z phoe: the first element of that list is the symbol DEFUN that was not created, because it is already present in the CL package
2018-06-15T13:15:03Z phoe: the second element of that list is the symbol FUNK that is not standard, therefore it could have been created automatically at read-time
2018-06-15T13:15:20Z phoe: bla bla bla, and so on
2018-06-15T13:15:32Z phoe: so you get a data structure after read-time - a list containing symbols, lists, whatever else
2018-06-15T13:15:45Z jmercouris: phoe: so, FUNK is instantiated at read-time?
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2018-06-15T13:15:50Z phoe: jmercouris: the symbol? usually, yes
2018-06-15T13:16:07Z jmercouris: I see, so during run-time we are never evaluating new symbols?
2018-06-15T13:16:15Z Bike: you only create symbols at runtime if you have a call to cl:intern, or the like.
2018-06-15T13:16:15Z jmercouris: s/evaluating/instantiating
2018-06-15T13:16:16Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean, evaluating new symbols?
2018-06-15T13:16:21Z phoe: oh
2018-06-15T13:16:23Z phoe: what Bike said
2018-06-15T13:16:30Z jmercouris: Aha
2018-06-15T13:16:36Z jmercouris: that makes sense now
2018-06-15T13:16:39Z phoe: you have to explicitly call MAKE-SYMBOL, GENSYM, GENTEMP, INTERN and so on
2018-06-15T13:16:43Z jmercouris: old code that I wrote is starting to make sense to me
2018-06-15T13:16:45Z phoe: to create symbols at runtime
2018-06-15T13:16:49Z jmercouris: I really did not understand what I was doing...
2018-06-15T13:16:58Z Bike: if you have, say, (defun funk (x) x), the symbol X probably exists at runtime only for debugging reasons. The actual code doesn't need it.
2018-06-15T13:17:03Z beach: jmercouris: The function may not be pointed to by the symbol, and the symbol may not have a slot containing such a pointer.
2018-06-15T13:17:27Z beach: jmercouris: As long as your implementation answers correctly to (symbol-function <symbol>) it can do what it wants.
2018-06-15T13:17:56Z jmercouris: so basically what jackdaniel said right? the implementation has latitude to implement the "symbol class" however it likes
2018-06-15T13:18:08Z jmercouris: ?
2018-06-15T13:18:10Z Bike: it's related to what jackdaniel said, yes.
2018-06-15T13:18:29Z jackdaniel: have you ever doubted me? ;-)
2018-06-15T13:18:34Z jmercouris: many times, yes :D
2018-06-15T13:18:47Z jackdaniel: yes, I encounter it often. probably the way I speak.
2018-06-15T13:18:48Z Bike: there is an API. the API says you can use symbol-function to get the function named by the symbol in the global environment. the API does not say anything at all about how this is accomplished
2018-06-15T13:19:08Z Bike: because that's not a matter for an interface
2018-06-15T13:19:57Z jmercouris: I see, thanks for the information
2018-06-15T13:21:23Z beach: jmercouris: And, in fact, in SICL, the association between function names and functions is stored in a first-class global environment.  That way, this association can be different in different environments.
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2018-06-15T13:27:30Z jmercouris: beach: what do you mean?
2018-06-15T13:27:43Z jmercouris: what kind of different environments?
2018-06-15T13:27:48Z jmercouris: like packages?
2018-06-15T13:27:56Z beach: No, not like that.
2018-06-15T13:28:11Z phoe: jmercouris: beach made a thing where you can have two different global environments. in each of these environments, you can DEFUN a function with the same name, but two different bodies.
2018-06-15T13:28:14Z beach: The Common Lisp HyperSpec mentions the "null lexical environment" also known as the "global environment".
2018-06-15T13:28:43Z phoe: So env1 can have (defun foo () 42) and env2 can have (defun foo () "forty two").
2018-06-15T13:28:44Z jmercouris: ah, so you can do this within the same image?
2018-06-15T13:28:47Z phoe: yep
2018-06-15T13:28:54Z jmercouris: what are some reasons you might want to do this?
2018-06-15T13:29:04Z phoe: multiuser systems
2018-06-15T13:29:06Z beach: jmercouris: In SICL, I generalized this idea so that these environments are represented by first-class objects, making it possible to have several simultaneous but different instances of global environments.
2018-06-15T13:29:06Z jkordani_: yea I've been wondering about this too
2018-06-15T13:29:10Z jackdaniel: the practical gist of it is being able to have two different versions of the same library
2018-06-15T13:29:16Z phoe: multiple library versions
2018-06-15T13:29:24Z jmercouris: ah wow, I didn't even think about that
2018-06-15T13:29:39Z phoe: disposable environments for compiling and building stuff and running pure-CL CI and other stuff
2018-06-15T13:29:44Z jmercouris: interesting
2018-06-15T13:29:55Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, multiple versions of a library, sandboxing, bootstrapping, cross compilation, etc, etc.
2018-06-15T13:29:56Z jmercouris: can you dump a single environment instead of the whole image?
2018-06-15T13:30:21Z beach: jmercouris: In SICL, I can't dump anything right now.
2018-06-15T13:30:40Z Bike: environments as modules is something i've been interested in, though.
2018-06-15T13:30:41Z jmercouris: oh, I see
2018-06-15T13:30:49Z phoe: but I think it would be possible
2018-06-15T13:30:53Z jmercouris: Bike: what are modules?
2018-06-15T13:31:02Z phoe: dump a Lisp image where env1 is the "global global" environment
2018-06-15T13:32:05Z beach: jmercouris: There is a lot of stuff in the literature about modules for Lisp-like languages.  A module is similar to an environment in that it is a mapping from names to values, as opposed to a package which is a mapping from symbol names to symbols.
2018-06-15T13:32:09Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: it is not CL term; scheme has modules, eulisp has them as well.
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2018-06-15T13:32:27Z jmercouris: I see
2018-06-15T13:32:36Z jmercouris: so, just to clarify my understanding
2018-06-15T13:32:38Z jmercouris: this diagram: https://imgur.com/a/cHhFQU6
2018-06-15T13:32:44Z jmercouris: is incorrect?
2018-06-15T13:32:56Z phoe: jmercouris: what do you mean incorrect?
2018-06-15T13:32:57Z Bike: what is it representing
2018-06-15T13:33:06Z phoe: this diagram seems to represent the list (EQUAL 3 5)
2018-06-15T13:33:09Z jmercouris: it is showing (equal 3 5)
2018-06-15T13:33:10Z jmercouris: yes
2018-06-15T13:33:22Z beach: jmercouris: It is one possible implementation of a symbol.
2018-06-15T13:33:22Z jmercouris: and it is saying that the car of the first element is the symbol equal which has 5 slots
2018-06-15T13:33:28Z jmercouris: and it doesn't have to be so
2018-06-15T13:33:31Z jmercouris: it could be literally anything
2018-06-15T13:33:33Z phoe: jmercouris: yep
2018-06-15T13:33:41Z phoe: how a symbol is implemented is an implementation detail
2018-06-15T13:33:41Z jmercouris: it needn't have a function pointer pointing to the function etc etc
2018-06-15T13:34:03Z Bike: i mean, it kind of depends. there's no technical guarantee that a cons has to have any slots either, it just needs to have an accessible car and cdr. but it's convenient to graph it like that.
2018-06-15T13:34:11Z beach: jmercouris: Correct.  And in SICL, symbol-plist is not in the symbol either.  That too is in the environment.
2018-06-15T13:34:28Z jmercouris: beach: interesting, this is a change to enable multiple environments?
2018-06-15T13:34:32Z jackdaniel: I like to think about symbols as of strings with strings attached (pardon the pun)
2018-06-15T13:34:35Z Bike: The basic thing to understand is that Lisp doesn't make any guarantees about pointers or whatever. It's just not part of the semantics
2018-06-15T13:34:36Z jmercouris: s/change/design decision
2018-06-15T13:35:17Z phoe: it's hard to learn Lisp if you can't ever reliably get any pointers
2018-06-15T13:35:18Z beach: jmercouris: Putting symbol-plist in the environment was natural once I decided to use first-class global environments.
2018-06-15T13:35:25Z phoe mic drop, goes to #lispcafe
2018-06-15T13:35:53Z beach: jmercouris: So in SICL, a symbol only stores its name and its package.
2018-06-15T13:36:06Z jmercouris: I see, that makes sense
2018-06-15T13:38:13Z beach: jmercouris: In fact, the definition is (defclass symbol (t) ((%name :initarg :name :accessor name) (%package :initarg :package :accessor package)) (:metaclass built-in-class))
2018-06-15T13:38:44Z jmercouris: ah so you are actually using a real class
2018-06-15T13:38:55Z jmercouris: so it needn't NOT be a real class
2018-06-15T13:38:56Z beach: The symbol class must exist.
2018-06-15T13:39:13Z beach: There is no such thing as a "real" or an "unreal" class.
2018-06-15T13:39:15Z jmercouris: well, earlier jackdaniel said that it may be whatever the implementation wants
2018-06-15T13:39:20Z jmercouris: let me find the quote
2018-06-15T13:39:54Z beach: It is not a standard class, because I use the metaclass built-in-class.
2018-06-15T13:40:05Z beach: But the class is very real, just like any other classes in Common Lisp.
2018-06-15T13:40:06Z jmercouris: "<jackdaniel> symbol is a built-in class
2018-06-15T13:40:06Z jmercouris: <jackdaniel> it means that it doesn't have to be a standard-class
2018-06-15T13:40:06Z jmercouris: "
2018-06-15T13:40:15Z jmercouris: sorry for the messed up quotes
2018-06-15T13:40:18Z Bike: what jackdaniel meant is that you can't do things with a built-in-class that you can do with a standard-class. for example you can't subclass it.
2018-06-15T13:40:33Z Bike: it's still a "real" class in the sense that there is an accessible class object.
2018-06-15T13:40:52Z beach: jmercouris: Try (class-of 'hello)
2018-06-15T13:41:06Z jmercouris: #<BUILT-IN-CLASS COMMON-LISP:SYMBOL>
2018-06-15T13:41:17Z beach: So it's very real.
2018-06-15T13:41:37Z jmercouris: maybe it is too soon to be thinking about this
2018-06-15T13:41:41Z jmercouris: I am only on chapter 3 :D
2018-06-15T13:41:53Z beach: jmercouris: Every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class.
2018-06-15T13:41:57Z jmercouris: page 119/587, a lot more to go
2018-06-15T13:42:00Z beach: ... including symbols.
2018-06-15T13:42:16Z jmercouris: that I remember hearing people say
2018-06-15T13:42:20Z jmercouris: the meaning still isn't clear to me though
2018-06-15T13:42:25Z jmercouris: what is and is not an object
2018-06-15T13:42:35Z jmercouris: for example is 3 an object?
2018-06-15T13:42:37Z jackdaniel: I think you meant this quote: "< jackdaniel> built-in class means: we pretened it is a class, but in fact it is internal datatype with shoehoerned aspects allowing dispatch on it"
2018-06-15T13:42:41Z beach: jmercouris: Yes, of course.
2018-06-15T13:42:48Z beach: jmercouris: Try (class-of 3).
2018-06-15T13:42:50Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: that is the quote I was thinking of
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2018-06-15T13:43:33Z Bike: you don't need to think too hard about it.
2018-06-15T13:43:37Z jmercouris: even functions are objects, interesting
2018-06-15T13:43:41Z jmercouris: (class-of #'class-of)
2018-06-15T13:43:47Z jmercouris: that I did not expect
2018-06-15T13:44:40Z jackdaniel: my point was to emphasize that some parts of "everything is a class" is very artificial to keep the model consistent (especially when we talk about built-in classes). but now I regret I've shared that opinion (because it seems to bring a lot of confusion)
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2018-06-15T13:44:50Z beach: jmercouris: What did you expect instead?
2018-06-15T13:45:00Z jmercouris: I expected some internal data structure, something else
2018-06-15T13:45:21Z jmercouris: I should stop thinking about other programming languages
2018-06-15T13:45:23Z beach: jmercouris: You really really need to start thinking in terms of protocols (or APIs if you want).
2018-06-15T13:45:26Z jmercouris: well, not in general, but in this context
2018-06-15T13:45:35Z beach: jmercouris: There is a Common Lisp function called CLASS-OF.
2018-06-15T13:45:57Z beach: jmercouris: Its purpose in life is to return a class, which is a Common Lisp object.
2018-06-15T13:46:01Z jmercouris: which is an instance of #<SB-PCL:SYSTEM-CLASS COMMON-LISP:FUNCTION> on my implementation
2018-06-15T13:46:03Z beach: jmercouris: That can't be altered.
2018-06-15T13:46:15Z phoe: jmercouris: correct
2018-06-15T13:46:29Z jmercouris: who is the one who instantiates this object?
2018-06-15T13:46:30Z phoe: the symbol CL:FUNCTION names a class in Lisp
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2018-06-15T13:46:36Z phoe: jmercouris: the implementation
2018-06-15T13:46:40Z beach: jmercouris: So you should not expect any other kind of object to be returned.
2018-06-15T13:47:00Z jmercouris: I see
2018-06-15T13:47:15Z xificurC: I think he has a chicken-egg problem
2018-06-15T13:47:22Z phoe: jmercouris: the implementation creates instances of that class for you when you, for instance, (lambda () 42)
2018-06-15T13:47:31Z phoe: this form evaluates to an instance of class FUNCTION
2018-06-15T13:47:41Z xificurC: I'm reading AMOP and haven't got a clue yet how are the metaobjects bootstrapped
2018-06-15T13:47:43Z jmercouris: is lambda itself not a function which returns a function?
2018-06-15T13:47:48Z phoe: jmercouris: no
2018-06-15T13:47:53Z beach: xificurC: That depends on the implementation.
2018-06-15T13:48:01Z phoe: clhs lambda
2018-06-15T13:48:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
2018-06-15T13:48:13Z jmercouris: how can lambda not be a function?
2018-06-15T13:48:13Z phoe: LAMBDA names a very simple macro
2018-06-15T13:48:18Z jmercouris: it is the first argument to a list
2018-06-15T13:48:21Z jmercouris: oh, it is a macro
2018-06-15T13:48:26Z phoe: (lambda () 42) expands into #'(lambda () 42)
2018-06-15T13:48:35Z phoe: and #'(lambda () 42) is (function (lambda () 42))
2018-06-15T13:48:40Z phoe: and FUNCTION is a special operator
2018-06-15T13:48:44Z phoe: that does the heavy lifting here
2018-06-15T13:48:58Z jmercouris: function is a function which creates an instance of the function class?
2018-06-15T13:49:01Z phoe: it grabs the LAMBDA *form* and returns an instance of a function based on the contents of that form
2018-06-15T13:49:04Z phoe: NO
2018-06-15T13:49:10Z phoe: FUNCTION is a special operator.
2018-06-15T13:49:14Z phoe: it is NOT a function.
2018-06-15T13:49:20Z beach: xificurC: In most implementations, that bootstrapping process is very messy, either for historical reasons or because the system is built in a different programming language.
2018-06-15T13:49:27Z jmercouris: phoe: what is a special operator?
2018-06-15T13:49:31Z xificurC: think built-in, or axiom, given by god
2018-06-15T13:49:44Z phoe: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.1
2018-06-15T13:49:44Z specbot: Special Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababa.htm
2018-06-15T13:49:46Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: it lambda essentially creates a function. since "everyting has a class" in common lisp, such function is an object of a certain built-in class
2018-06-15T13:49:46Z dlowe: jmercouris: it doesn't follow function or macro application rules
2018-06-15T13:50:01Z phoe: dlowe: actually it follows macro application rules
2018-06-15T13:50:13Z phoe: since every specop is permitted to be implemented as a macro
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2018-06-15T13:50:35Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: so, lambda makes an instance of the function class? or did I misread?
2018-06-15T13:50:40Z jackdaniel: there is not much more into it, the only practical aspect is that you may specialize method on its class
2018-06-15T13:50:47Z phoe: jmercouris: it's a bit more complicated
2018-06-15T13:51:00Z phoe: the special operator FUNCTION grabs things and returns functions based on these things
2018-06-15T13:51:05Z jmercouris: maybe I should finish this book before going deeper into this
2018-06-15T13:51:16Z phoe: these things may be symbols or Lisp data
2018-06-15T13:51:20Z jmercouris: my head is already full of too many things to remember at once
2018-06-15T13:51:25Z phoe: and this Lisp data must be a list whose first element is the symbol LAMBDA
2018-06-15T13:51:29Z xificurC: jmercouris: what are you reading
2018-06-15T13:51:32Z phoe: so (function (lambda () 42)) is an example
2018-06-15T13:51:35Z beach: xificurC: In SICL, on the other hand, I use ordinary forms like DEFCLASS, DEFGENERIC, and DEFMETHOD to create this entire hierarchy: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
2018-06-15T13:51:39Z jackdaniel: as I said, some "closiphology" is artificial. function is a function. to keep model consistent each function has a class associated with it
2018-06-15T13:51:55Z jmercouris: xificurC: I'm read Common LISP: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation, already read PCL, did a bunch of lisp programming
2018-06-15T13:51:58Z beach: xificurC: I can do that because I bootstrap using a full Common Lisp implementation, and I use first-class global environments.
2018-06-15T13:52:03Z jmercouris: now I'm hoping to start understanding more
2018-06-15T13:52:14Z phoe: beach: I want to see the place where you go (defclass t ...)
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2018-06-15T13:52:31Z shka: jackdaniel: well, or a funcallable object
2018-06-15T13:52:34Z jmercouris: phoe: you could just rgrep sicl, it is on github after all :D
2018-06-15T13:52:46Z phoe: jmercouris: oh right
2018-06-15T13:52:47Z jackdaniel: shka: sure, confuse him more. in the meantime I'll grab some tea
2018-06-15T13:52:53Z phoe: shka: don't confuse him
2018-06-15T13:53:06Z beach: phoe: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/blob/master/Code/CLOS/t-defclass.lisp
2018-06-15T13:53:07Z phoe: you don't feed method combinations to learners
2018-06-15T13:53:09Z shka: i have angel and devil on my sides
2018-06-15T13:53:20Z shka: :D
2018-06-15T13:53:24Z phoe: beach: ...you actually have a whole file dedicated for that?
2018-06-15T13:53:32Z beach: Heh, yes, I do.
2018-06-15T13:53:48Z beach: Beautiful, isn't it?
2018-06-15T13:53:49Z phoe: .................why did I totally expect you to have a whole file dedicated just for that
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2018-06-15T13:54:36Z phoe: beach: I can't find "defclass null" though
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2018-06-15T13:55:23Z beach: phoe: Yeah, not all of the built-in classes are defined yet.
2018-06-15T13:55:33Z phoe: beach: yep, got it.
2018-06-15T14:00:33Z phoe: ooh, a fully object-oriented #'NULL
2018-06-15T14:00:57Z phoe: (defun null (thing) (eq (class-of thing) (find-class 'cl:null)))
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2018-06-15T14:02:00Z beach: That looks very inefficient.
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2018-06-15T14:02:40Z shka: phoe: retard-oriented
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2018-06-15T14:06:16Z makomo: xificurC: you're reading AMOP? that's the next one on my lisp reading list :-D
2018-06-15T14:06:35Z makomo: you've probably seen it already, but appendix c deals with some of the circularities/bootstrapping problems
2018-06-15T14:06:53Z phoe: shka: beach: you both are right, I just wanted to write it for the sake of writing it. :D
2018-06-15T14:07:07Z makomo: the circularities that arise in reflective systems are really interesting
2018-06-15T14:07:29Z beach: phoe: Fair enough.
2018-06-15T14:08:05Z xificurC: makomo: yeah, not sure if I'm gonna finish the book though as I haven't done much CLOS in order to fully understand and appreciate what lies underneath it
2018-06-15T14:08:57Z makomo: also, i realized yesterday that 3-lisp was the author's phd thesis and the first formalization of the concept of reflection
2018-06-15T14:09:01Z makomo: and it's 700+ pages long
2018-06-15T14:09:04Z makomo: beautiful
2018-06-15T14:09:58Z makomo: xificurC: i see
2018-06-15T14:10:12Z makomo: i've heard that sonya keene's clos book is a good introduction to clos itself. what do others think of it?
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2018-06-15T14:19:51Z beach: makomo: I didn't like it much.
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2018-06-15T14:20:23Z beach: makomo: Probably because it used examples that I either could not appreciate, or that required non-standard functionality.
2018-06-15T14:20:39Z beach: makomo: One example was software distribution for different platforms.
2018-06-15T14:20:48Z beach: makomo: The other one required threads.
2018-06-15T14:21:00Z beach: makomo: Maybe I would like it better if I were to re-read it today.
2018-06-15T14:22:49Z phoe: Xach: I'd like to ping you for any news regarding Quicklisp
2018-06-15T14:22:56Z beach: makomo: If I were to write a book like that, I would probably use more mundane examples like people, companies, employees, countries, etc.
2018-06-15T14:23:50Z makomo: beach: that's something that i wanted to comment on. aren't such examples better than the washed-out examples of animals, shapes, etc.?
2018-06-15T14:24:20Z makomo: i've seen one review where someone says that the book does actually go over the canonical animal/shape example, but that there are actual "industrial" examples afterwards
2018-06-15T14:24:21Z beach: Maybe.  I just didn't appreciate those particular choices.
2018-06-15T14:24:42Z makomo: to me that seems like something that's always missing from these OO introductions
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2018-06-15T14:24:57Z makomo: it's always just simple and "dumb" stuff. i don't know how i feel about it.
2018-06-15T14:25:06Z beach: I was thinking of using an information system as an example.
2018-06-15T14:25:21Z beach: I don't consider that "dumb".  It's a real application.
2018-06-15T14:26:14Z makomo: yeah, i don't think i do either, but i also don't recall ever seeing such a thing used in an OO introduction
2018-06-15T14:26:23Z makomo: but i guess that would also depend on have elaborate the system is
2018-06-15T14:26:26Z makomo: how*
2018-06-15T14:26:47Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-15T14:26:56Z beach: But yeah, one has to avoid silly stuff such as (defclass student (person) ...).
2018-06-15T14:27:25Z beach: [as if a person is always going to be a student]
2018-06-15T14:27:39Z phoe: beach: actually a student is always going to be a person
2018-06-15T14:27:50Z phoe: I've yet to see a nonhuman student
2018-06-15T14:27:59Z beach: I mean, as if a person who happens to be a student is always going to remain a student and has always been one.
2018-06-15T14:28:16Z phoe: beach: oooh, right.
2018-06-15T14:28:29Z makomo: hmm good example
2018-06-15T14:28:50Z makomo: sometimes it just seems to me that more elaborate examples would be much better than the usual "we'll skip this, because it would take too much time" or w/e the usual "excuse" is
2018-06-15T14:28:57Z beach: I think that's the error in most books.  They make class hierarchies that would absolutely not work in a real application.
2018-06-15T14:29:01Z makomo: actually working through a complicated example would help a lot
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2018-06-15T14:30:07Z beach: I guess that *is* an advantage of Keene's book.  The examples are real, from real situations.
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2018-06-15T14:33:00Z makomo: mhm. i guess i'll give it a go
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2018-06-15T14:36:17Z makomo: beach: do you plan on SICL supporting stuff like threads and other usual extensions? even if you don't, how would you go about implementing these since SICL is implemented in CL?
2018-06-15T14:36:55Z Bike: how can i make asdf use a given registry configuration file?
2018-06-15T14:38:01Z makomo: it might not matter that it is implemented in CL, as you said before (and the same thing goes for the LOOP macro that you implemented in CL), but if you for example relied on SBCL's threads or FFI how would you ever get rid of that dependency once you've bootstrapped
2018-06-15T14:38:23Z makomo: maybe i'm thinking about it in the wrong way, i don't know
2018-06-15T14:38:42Z beach: makomo: I definitely want to support threads and such.
2018-06-15T14:39:21Z beach: makomo: I would just make sure there is a bunch of functions that interface to the system calls of the operating system.
2018-06-15T14:39:24Z makomo: or would there have to be a part written in C for example to interface with the platform you're running on?
2018-06-15T14:39:37Z Bike: guess i have to like, throw it in a config directory. ok
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2018-06-15T14:40:03Z beach: makomo: Each system call would likely require a few lines of assembler.
2018-06-15T14:40:09Z makomo: beach: that can't be done with pure CL though, right?
2018-06-15T14:40:16Z makomo: oh, you'd directly invoke syscalls? hmm
2018-06-15T14:40:24Z beach: Yes, that's the plan.
2018-06-15T14:40:30Z makomo: so you wouldn't use stuff like pthreads, etc.?
2018-06-15T14:40:38Z beach: I don't think so, no.
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2018-06-15T14:40:56Z makomo: huh, interesting. is there a short answer as to why you would do it like that?
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2018-06-15T14:41:23Z beach: makomo: As opposed to going through libc, you mean?
2018-06-15T14:41:27Z makomo: yeah
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2018-06-15T14:41:48Z beach: makomo: Because SICL is the basis of a planned Lisp operating system, and that operating system will not have any libc.
2018-06-15T14:42:03Z beach: ... nor a C compiler for that matter.
2018-06-15T14:42:11Z makomo: *gasp*
2018-06-15T14:42:27Z makomo: hmm
2018-06-15T14:42:45Z makomo: so you would basically roll your own implementation of threads? i guess that makes sense if you're writing your own OS
2018-06-15T14:42:56Z phoe: yep
2018-06-15T14:43:32Z beach: makomo: Well, for existing systems like Linux, I would obviously use the OS threads.
2018-06-15T14:43:56Z beach: makomo: But, yeah, I don't see any shortcut for the Lisp operating system.
2018-06-15T14:44:23Z makomo: aha, right. the lisp OS would be a separate project, but it would rely on SICL for most stuff i guess?
2018-06-15T14:44:42Z phoe: depends
2018-06-15T14:44:47Z phoe: a lot of stuff is already surprisingly similar
2018-06-15T14:44:51Z beach: SICL with first-class global environments would be the basis, since it would already be a multi-user Common Lisp system.
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2018-06-15T14:45:07Z random-nick: why not have a macro for syscalls? glibc has a function that lets you call any linux syscall
2018-06-15T14:45:15Z warweasle: makomo: If someone makes a lisp os, they really should use the linux kernel for drivers. Even if they have to convert them to lisp.
2018-06-15T14:45:37Z warweasle: Otherwise, it won't run on much.
2018-06-15T14:45:40Z Ukari: how to difference betwwen (values) and nil?
2018-06-15T14:45:51Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-06-15T14:45:52Z Ukari: (values) returns no value
2018-06-15T14:45:58Z beach: random-nick: It is not as simple as that for Common Lisp.  You have to define what kind of Common Lisp data structure will be used for the call that normally accepts C structures, and then translate.
2018-06-15T14:46:34Z Bike: Ukari: "no values" is implicitly turned into NIL anywhere expecting one value,which is basically everywhere
2018-06-15T14:47:00Z beach: Ukari: You can distinguish them by using MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST.
2018-06-15T14:47:08Z beach: clhs m-v-l
2018-06-15T14:47:09Z specbot: Matches: multiple-value-list, multiple-values-limit.
2018-06-15T14:47:09Z phoe: Ukari: (= 0 (length (multiple-value-list x)))
2018-06-15T14:47:14Z Bike: Ukari: one exception is you can do (multiple-value-list (values)) => NIL versus (multiple-value-list nil) => (nil)
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2018-06-15T14:47:42Z Bike: okay, asdf config files don't follow links for the case of :here i guess
2018-06-15T14:47:47Z makomo: beach: and the point that warweasle makes about portability? is writing a whole kernel and all the different device drivers something that's part of the plan for the lisp os or?
2018-06-15T14:47:48Z Ukari: use length is a good idea, thank you
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2018-06-15T14:48:15Z random-nick: beach: well, wouldn't that be handled using the FFI?
2018-06-15T14:48:16Z phoe: makomo: the device layer is actually separable from the actual Lisp implementation
2018-06-15T14:48:22Z phoe: random-nick: what FFI?
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2018-06-15T14:48:47Z phoe: there's no C libraries to speak of if there is no OS underneath
2018-06-15T14:48:58Z random-nick: there's the kernel to speak to
2018-06-15T14:49:12Z phoe: random-nick: there's no kernel underneath to speak of if there's no OS underneath
2018-06-15T14:49:19Z warweasle: I could see using lisp as the root process. ( init.d )
2018-06-15T14:49:33Z Bike: it's really incredible how annoying it is to tell asdf where to get files. no wonder central registry is still around
2018-06-15T14:49:39Z makomo: that's what my question is. is the planned lisp os going to reuse the linux kernel or create its own
2018-06-15T14:50:07Z beach: makomo: Contrary to other people, I consider the "running on bare metal" to be less important, but a cute thing, of course.  I would be happy to run it in a Linux process to start with.
2018-06-15T14:50:09Z makomo: and if the answer is the latter, isn't that a huge undertaking and something one wouldn't really want to do
2018-06-15T14:50:10Z random-nick: phoe: I'm talking about running on existing systems
2018-06-15T14:50:16Z beach: makomo: Also, people assume that I want this thing to be widely used.  That would be great but I doubt it will happen.
2018-06-15T14:50:18Z beach: makomo: I am a researcher.  I just want to show that we can do better than what we are currently doing, and what we have been doing in the past.  But I don't have great hopes that many people will be bother.
2018-06-15T14:50:22Z phoe: random-nick: yep, I see
2018-06-15T14:51:01Z random-nick: and talking to a kernel like Linux requires most of the difficult parts of a FFI
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2018-06-15T14:51:18Z random-nick: since some syscalls take pointers to structures
2018-06-15T14:51:39Z random-nick: and character arrays too
2018-06-15T14:51:45Z beach: random-nick: I am not terribly interested in FFI.
2018-06-15T14:51:47Z makomo: beach: i see. you never know :-)
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2018-06-15T14:55:20Z warweasle: I posted this to the other channel but I will here too: http://wiki.c2.com/?SynthesisOs
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2018-06-15T14:55:41Z warweasle: Although, after learning forth, it sort of reminds me of forth.
2018-06-15T14:55:41Z beach: I think it would be a great exercise to see whether CLOS could be used to create a better hierarchy of device drivers than what C would allow.
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2018-06-15T14:56:35Z warweasle: beach: I don't think we can optimize much further without sacrificing security.
2018-06-15T14:56:36Z beach: Such a hierarchy *might* take some inspiration from I/O Kit, but not too much, of course.
2018-06-15T14:56:46Z makomo: beach: so in the context of SICL running as a linux process, supporting threads within such an implementation would require calling into libc right? how would that be done if SICL is written using CL?
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2018-06-15T14:56:58Z beach: warweasle: Oh, I am not talking about speed.  I am talking about maintainability and, yes, security.
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2018-06-15T14:57:25Z warweasle: Ah...I assumed you wanted to compile and optimize the entire driver stack.
2018-06-15T14:57:30Z makomo: warweasle: interesting. i heard something similar a while ago, something about recompiling the code of the filesystem i think?
2018-06-15T14:57:31Z beach: makomo: No, it would be done by doing system calls directly.
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2018-06-15T14:58:10Z beach: warweasle: I would like to see whether it could be advantageous to use CLOS to write such a collection of drivers.
2018-06-15T14:58:45Z warweasle: beach: Object Oriented doesn't seem to make good kernels or drivers.
2018-06-15T14:58:52Z makomo: beach: ok, but i think the question of "how would it be done within CL?" still stands. how would you connect assembler and CL?
2018-06-15T14:59:00Z beach: warweasle: I think you are totally wrong about that.
2018-06-15T14:59:02Z warweasle: Have you heard of Herd?
2018-06-15T14:59:28Z random-nick: you mean Hurd?
2018-06-15T14:59:36Z Bike: the first research paper i ever read was an operating system based on having objects with jit compiled methods for syscalls. that was neat
2018-06-15T14:59:43Z beach: makomo: There is always a little machine code or "assembler" in a complex system like Common Lisp.  The code generator of a compiler for instance.  And there would have to be a few lines of such assembler to implement a Common Lisp function such as POSIX:OPEN.
2018-06-15T14:59:50Z Bike: it was in the 90s though and didn't exactly catch on, so
2018-06-15T15:00:14Z warweasle: beach: The problem is OO requires the language or runtime to do things for you. In kernel space you don't have that luxury. If you take the runtime away, you just have structures.
2018-06-15T15:00:52Z warweasle: Bike: Is that the same one I posted?
2018-06-15T15:01:08Z beach: warweasle: Are you talking about a typical Linux-like kernel or about a new LispOS kernel?
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2018-06-15T15:01:33Z warweasle: Kernels in general.
2018-06-15T15:01:36Z on_ion: the cpu and i/o controllers and all the devices need software help
2018-06-15T15:01:37Z beach: warweasle: Because the Lisp OS I am planning won't even HAVE a kernel.
2018-06-15T15:01:52Z warweasle: beach: Have you heard of OSKit?
2018-06-15T15:01:53Z beach: warweasle: So I can use full object-orientation in system code.
2018-06-15T15:02:05Z beach: warweasle: I have, but it was some time ago.
2018-06-15T15:02:24Z beach: warweasle: Most projects like that assume that you are writing a Unix-like kernel.
2018-06-15T15:02:38Z on_ion: we are running countless OSs in virtual machines, virtualbox or qemu etc, why not just accept SBCL or emacs et.al for another VM? why a bare metal machine OS?
2018-06-15T15:02:56Z warweasle: on_ion: Good point.
2018-06-15T15:02:59Z beach: warweasle: HURD is the exact opposite of what I want.
2018-06-15T15:04:17Z warweasle: It's a microkernel. That didn't seem to work out. I don't believe smaller will make it work any better. There has to be communication between pieces. And then you have a kernel again.
2018-06-15T15:04:46Z random-nick: beach: so would your LispOS look something like TempleOS?
2018-06-15T15:04:55Z random-nick: I mean architecturally, not the religious elements
2018-06-15T15:04:59Z warweasle: You *could* implement lisp on top of forth and get something like you are thinking, but it's a very bare os.
2018-06-15T15:05:00Z on_ion: like they designed an implementation where the pieces cannot talk, warweasle ? =) there was just not that many people working on HURD
2018-06-15T15:05:30Z phoe: random-nick: AFAIK yes, except the user normally does not have raw access to memory like in TempleOS
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2018-06-15T15:05:49Z beach: warweasle: You seem to be assuming a traditional OS with separate processes for each running program, requiring address remappings and hence communication by copying bytes between kernel and applications.
2018-06-15T15:05:58Z on_ion: people have been writing some interesting software for TempleOS. build it and they will come
2018-06-15T15:06:17Z warweasle: beach: How can I not? Unless it's a single application in a single thread.
2018-06-15T15:06:23Z beach: warweasle: Instead think Genera, but with safety and multi-user environment.
2018-06-15T15:06:26Z on_ion: the channel topic is getting more out of date by the second
2018-06-15T15:06:30Z random-nick: phoe: well, I guess that's a consequence of HolyC's design
2018-06-15T15:06:54Z warweasle: beach: What enforces the safety?
2018-06-15T15:07:12Z phoe: warweasle: lack of API (:
2018-06-15T15:07:14Z random-nick: but user code would still be able to access all of the system's objects, right?
2018-06-15T15:07:23Z on_ion: we can run genera in a VM too, warweasle do you know much about it ?
2018-06-15T15:07:30Z phoe: random-nick: depends if these are objects are present in that code's global environment
2018-06-15T15:07:41Z warweasle: on_ion: No. I only know old school bare metal.
2018-06-15T15:07:48Z warweasle: Much else and my head hurts.
2018-06-15T15:08:02Z beach: warweasle: I think you need to read the design document.  Otherwise, I am afraid I am going to end up re-typing it here in its entirety.
2018-06-15T15:08:02Z phoe: on_ion: https://github.com/ynniv/opengenera
2018-06-15T15:08:14Z makomo: beach: i still don't understand how that would be done for a CL implementation written in CL. i'm ignoring the lisp OS thing for a now and focusing just on SICL being a CL implementation that i can run for example on linux. how would it implement these syscalls if it only has CL to work with? would you use some non-standard stuff from SBCL? would part of it be implemented in C or assembler? how would it work?
2018-06-15T15:08:39Z beach: warweasle: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2018-06-15T15:09:07Z on_ion: phoe: right. thanks for sharing it
2018-06-15T15:09:39Z phoe: makomo: if you have a Linux beneath, you need to communicate with it
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2018-06-15T15:09:55Z on_ion: warweasle: beach mentioned it is like Genera, but with safety and multi-user environment. if you dont know genera, how to continue the conversation ? i point this out because edging close to misunderstandings or misinterpreted idea[l]s
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2018-06-15T15:10:09Z phoe: the basic means of communicating with it is executing the interrupt 0x80 CPU instruction
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2018-06-15T15:10:24Z beach: makomo: SICL is (going to be) bootstrapped on a Common Lisp implementation.  An executable file will be created.  That file contains machine code.  Some of that machine code will be the implementation of the function POSIX:OPEN.  During bootstrapping, that function will be defined to execute the machine instruction for making a system call.  That's all it takes.
2018-06-15T15:10:27Z phoe: which is the part of the libc syscall() instruction that actually passes control out of the process and into Linux.
2018-06-15T15:11:00Z phoe: either you link against linux's libc that contains syscall() and you call it, or you reimplement its functionality in whatever you want and then interrupt the OS manually.
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2018-06-15T15:11:17Z phoe: if you want no LIBC linkage, that is possible.
2018-06-15T15:11:24Z warweasle: on_ion: Basic OS theory shouldn't change. What I hear is "DOS running lisp"
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2018-06-15T15:11:38Z makomo: beach: oh hmm. so the creation of this executable will be part of the bootstrapping process?
2018-06-15T15:11:54Z random-nick: warweasle: what's wrong with that?
2018-06-15T15:12:13Z phoe: warweasle: there's no DOS in there
2018-06-15T15:12:16Z beach: warweasle: Unfortunately, most of the OS literature also assumes a Unix-like kernel.  A better thing to look at would be Multics.  And of course, Genera.
2018-06-15T15:12:16Z random-nick: lisp is far more suitable to be the only language compared to machine code
2018-06-15T15:12:22Z beach: makomo: Yes.
2018-06-15T15:12:35Z phoe: DOS is actually nice enough to allow you to erase it from memory and replace with anything else you'd like
2018-06-15T15:12:54Z beach: warweasle: So it is very likely that, despite your having read most of the existing OS literature, they haven't told you everything.
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2018-06-15T15:12:57Z phoe: so there's no DOS in "DOS running Lisp"
2018-06-15T15:15:11Z warweasle: Ok, I don't get it.
2018-06-15T15:15:20Z beach: Sorry to hear that.
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2018-06-15T15:15:57Z flip214: phoe: so is windows, if you have a way to run code in kernel space....  ;)
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2018-06-15T15:16:47Z warweasle: It seems a lot like running lisp as your shell.
2018-06-15T15:17:28Z phoe: flip214: you know how the saying goes: if all you have is a DOS, everything looks like kernel space (:
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2018-06-15T15:17:52Z warweasle: If all you have is DOS, you are still better off than Window 95.
2018-06-15T15:18:16Z warweasle: Windows 3.1 was ok.
2018-06-15T15:18:29Z random-nick: are you sure? 95 added long filename support
2018-06-15T15:18:41Z loke: warweasle: Windows 3.1 was _not_ OK. I firmly believe you are wearing rose-coloured hindsight glasses.
2018-06-15T15:19:06Z random-nick: also, 95 was a 32-bit OS
2018-06-15T15:19:07Z warweasle: Maybe, it was my first graphical shell.
2018-06-15T15:19:14Z shka_: so much of topic
2018-06-15T15:19:17Z dlowe: yes, the long filename SUPPO~1
2018-06-15T15:19:18Z phoe: welp
2018-06-15T15:19:31Z warweasle: DOS could be 32 bit! You just had to make a few BIOS calls.
2018-06-15T15:19:31Z loke: random-nick: W95 still had 16-bit DOS drivers (in many cases)
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2018-06-15T15:19:51Z warweasle: Then get into a flat memory mode.
2018-06-15T15:20:13Z warweasle: And tell MASM which parts of the code were which.
2018-06-15T15:20:56Z warweasle: Maybe I just have Stockholm syndrome.
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2018-06-15T15:22:29Z beach: warweasle: Anyway, I am sorry that I am unable to communicate the essence of my ideas to you.  Maybe in the future, I can improve my communication skills, probably in the form of more written documentation.
2018-06-15T15:22:55Z warweasle: I'm on wikipedia now.
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2018-06-15T15:29:27Z warweasle: So classes are really just metadata for a compiled procedural code?
2018-06-15T15:29:38Z warweasle: for = on top of
2018-06-15T15:30:39Z on_ion: what classes?
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2018-06-15T15:30:51Z warweasle: In genera.
2018-06-15T15:31:29Z on_ion: ah oops sry
2018-06-15T15:31:44Z phoe: warweasle: classes are objects describing other objects
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2018-06-15T15:32:02Z on_ion: lisp interpreted is like a genera, really; we just have more stuff on the "outside" of it, like device drivers, network management, etc.,
2018-06-15T15:32:12Z phoe: in particular, instances of classes have slots, which contain data
2018-06-15T15:32:14Z on_ion: interpreter** like SBCL, emacs, etc
2018-06-15T15:32:39Z phoe: if anything, generic functions are metadata for compiled procedural code
2018-06-15T15:32:58Z phoe: metadata in the broad meaning of the word
2018-06-15T15:33:32Z warweasle: I'm curious about vtables. Vtables in low level drivers are difficult. Especially when you can't control their lifetime and memory management directly.
2018-06-15T15:34:31Z random-nick: aren't vtables a C++ thing?
2018-06-15T15:34:48Z phoe: warweasle: depends on whether your low level driver needs a vtable
2018-06-15T15:34:52Z beach: on_ion: Whether it is an interpreter or a compiler is not important.
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2018-06-15T15:35:23Z phoe: your driver can be a Lisp function that grabs (fdefinition 'network-driver:do-some-stuff) and calls the resulting function object
2018-06-15T15:35:36Z phoe: there, no vtable, there's just a global environment that you query
2018-06-15T15:36:42Z beach: warweasle: CLOS typically does not use vtables for its implementation, in case you are referring to the kind of vtables often used to implement C++.
2018-06-15T15:36:51Z warweasle: So it would be like running lisp from DOS. It does everything including overwriting the interupt calls.
2018-06-15T15:37:34Z phoe: warweasle: again, running Lisp from DOS isn't very different from running Lisp without any underlying OS
2018-06-15T15:37:38Z Bike: warweasle: oh, synthesis, yes.i didn't see your link.
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2018-06-15T15:38:21Z phoe: the way you do low-level stuff doesn't really differ from the way you do high-level stuff in Lisp
2018-06-15T15:38:32Z warweasle: beach: How does it manually manage memory and resources in a garbage collected environment? Is it a separate interface?
2018-06-15T15:38:40Z random-nick: I still think that a lispos shares more similarities with TempleOS' architecture than with DOS'
2018-06-15T15:39:21Z loke: random-nick: Or you could argue that templeos borrows from Lispos :-)
2018-06-15T15:39:30Z loke: I'm pretty sure Genera is older :-)
2018-06-15T15:39:39Z warweasle: Don't get me wrong, I love lisp. I just don't see how it can be used at the embedded level.
2018-06-15T15:39:45Z beach: warweasle: What is "it" and why would it need to manually manage memory?
2018-06-15T15:40:06Z warweasle: Something has to assign memory and then free it.
2018-06-15T15:40:28Z phoe: warweasle: if you need some memory never to be released then you simply tell the GC that it should never free that thing
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2018-06-15T15:41:04Z phoe: for example pin in it the active global environment: (defvar *very-important-device-something* ...)
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2018-06-15T15:41:16Z phoe: as long as the environment lives, the value of that variable lives
2018-06-15T15:41:20Z beach: random-nick: Yes, TempleOS has some of the features of the LispOS I am planning.
2018-06-15T15:41:48Z beach: warweasle: Yes, it is called the memory manager, of which the garbage collector is an essential part.
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2018-06-15T15:42:17Z warweasle: So you have something simlar to (make-interupt-handler irq 0x8080 code...)
2018-06-15T15:42:39Z beach: Looks about right.
2018-06-15T15:43:37Z warweasle: And the "class information" is not kept inside the code but rather outside it as "metadata".
2018-06-15T15:43:54Z beach: ?
2018-06-15T15:44:17Z phoe: warweasle: what do you mean by class information?
2018-06-15T15:44:24Z warweasle: You don't have the interupt looking up the code to call. It just calls the compiled code directly.
2018-06-15T15:44:31Z phoe: oh right
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2018-06-15T15:45:14Z beach: warweasle: You would very likely need a few lines of machine code to trampoline to a Common Lisp function.
2018-06-15T15:45:15Z warweasle: And you just have to be careful to make short, fast interupt routines.
2018-06-15T15:45:31Z phoe: there's no problem with creating a Lisp instance INTERRUPT-HANDLER, putting a reference to it inside some INTERRUPT-HANDLER-TABLE instance, and then call some function #'INSTALL-INTERRUPT-HANDLER-TABLE on that instance
2018-06-15T15:46:12Z warweasle: beach: About that...Even in C you don't have time to do any processing. You just post a message to act on later.
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2018-06-15T15:46:48Z warweasle: I would seem like you could easily take too much time doing that many lookups.
2018-06-15T15:47:12Z beach: That could easily happen.  In which case it would have to be fixed.
2018-06-15T15:47:24Z phoe: warweasle: well
2018-06-15T15:47:55Z phoe: #'INSTALL-INTERRUPT-HANDLER-TABLE could just as well compile that instance into an actual fixed jump table, so a bunch of JMPs in memory
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2018-06-15T15:48:14Z warweasle: But it's all lisp all the way down but without the typical protection lisp give you.
2018-06-15T15:48:24Z phoe: warweasle: define "without the typical protection"
2018-06-15T15:48:43Z random-nick: what do you mean by "the typical protection"?
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2018-06-15T15:48:51Z warweasle: Memory management, garbage collection, thread protection, etc. At least at the low level.
2018-06-15T15:49:09Z phoe: warweasle: there's never any protection on the low level
2018-06-15T15:49:10Z warweasle: Swapping out function calls as you change the functions...
2018-06-15T15:49:28Z phoe: if there was, *nix kernel panics wouldn't be so fatal
2018-06-15T15:49:31Z on_ion: beach: i meant implementation, sorry.
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2018-06-15T15:49:55Z phoe: except Lisp gives you some more things like a sane type system that helps you actually not commit a crashing mistake
2018-06-15T15:50:05Z on_ion: i was not referring to compiler v. interpreter, not part of current context of topic, but implementation v. implmntation
2018-06-15T15:50:23Z on_ion: whether it be LispOS or genera or this VM or that VM
2018-06-15T15:50:35Z phoe: warweasle: also "Swapping out function calls as you change the functions" is already being done in implementations
2018-06-15T15:50:56Z warweasle: phoe: At the interupt level?
2018-06-15T15:51:17Z phoe: warweasle: nope :P we have no such low-level Lisps
2018-06-15T15:51:27Z phoe: but redefining functions at runtime already happens well enough in multithreaded implementations
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2018-06-15T15:51:52Z warweasle: OK...now I'm tracking. It's almost like having two lisps, a high level and low level.
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2018-06-15T15:52:06Z phoe: except they're actually one lisp
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2018-06-15T15:52:38Z warweasle: One compiler. Different levels of protection/access/etc
2018-06-15T15:52:44Z phoe: warweasle: oh yes, that's correct
2018-06-15T15:52:59Z phoe: the standard user should not have direct access to memory
2018-06-15T15:52:59Z warweasle: So there *is* a kernel of sorts.
2018-06-15T15:53:13Z warweasle: Now it fits in my mental model.
2018-06-15T15:53:17Z phoe: warweasle: for protection/access? doesn't have to be
2018-06-15T15:53:32Z phoe: the best way of not having direct acccess to memory is not having direct access to memory
2018-06-15T15:53:37Z random-nick: no, it's more like everything is the kernel
2018-06-15T15:53:44Z beach: warweasle: Just as in Common Lisp, you can't access an arbitrary byte of memory, you couldn't do it in the LispOS I am planning either.
2018-06-15T15:54:10Z beach: warweasle: But it is not because there is a kernel.  It is because you are simply not allowed to write code that accesses memory directly.
2018-06-15T15:54:16Z phoe: if your Lisp REPL does not give you access to any stuff like dereference-pointer or such, you simply can't do it
2018-06-15T15:54:31Z phoe: it's hard to dereference a pointer if there's no pointer and there's no dereferencing API
2018-06-15T15:54:46Z phoe: ...this sounds like some hardcore zen stuff
2018-06-15T15:54:49Z warweasle: What about hardware memory mapping?
2018-06-15T15:55:21Z phoe: ha, actually beach got that one covered in his paper
2018-06-15T15:55:37Z warweasle: I can't find the paper, just code.
2018-06-15T15:55:39Z phoe: AFAIR he wants to use RAM as a cache for hard drive space
2018-06-15T15:55:40Z beach: warweasle: What about it?
2018-06-15T15:55:50Z beach: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2018-06-15T15:58:09Z Bike: does anyone actually understand asdf congiruations
2018-06-15T15:58:18Z beach: Maybe Fare.
2018-06-15T15:58:23Z phoe: Bike: anyone as in anyone in the world?
2018-06-15T15:58:33Z phoe: Bike: that might not be a trivial question to answer
2018-06-15T15:58:50Z Bike: central registry it is
2018-06-15T15:59:12Z nirved: beach: what about LispOS and different accelerators, i.e. GPUs?
2018-06-15T15:59:28Z beach: nirved: I haven't thought about that at all.  Sorry.
2018-06-15T15:59:42Z beach: nirved: But maybe you have a more specific question?
2018-06-15T16:01:29Z beach: nirved: Again, I seriously doubt that it would be widely adopted.  I am a researcher, and I want to show that we can do better than we have been doing for the past half a century or so.  If Nvidia does not buy that, then there is nothing I can do about it.  As long as I can show that IF NVIDIA HAD ACCEPTED IT, then we would be better off, I am satisfied.
2018-06-15T16:01:36Z beach: nirved: Does that answer your question?
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2018-06-15T16:03:59Z beach: nirved: I am one single person, and I can't possibly rewrite all the applications I use on a daily basis in Common Lisp so that I can ditch my GNU/Linux system.  So for the foreseeable future, I would have to use both systems simultaneously.  One way to do that is to run the LispOS as a Linux process.  Another possibility would be to run it in some virtualizer.
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2018-06-15T16:04:55Z nirved: beach: i mean, will there be a way to extend it, supporting different kind of devices
2018-06-15T16:05:04Z nirved: since you mentioned no raw memory access
2018-06-15T16:05:14Z phoe: nirved: as the user? will be hard
2018-06-15T16:05:15Z warweasle: beach: I might have to write embedded code in the future. So that's why I'm asking so many questions.
2018-06-15T16:05:24Z phoe: as the implementer? should be possible
2018-06-15T16:05:25Z beach: Because of first-class global environments, there could very well be one environment, inaccessible to the ordinary user (would require "system" privileges) that would be able to access memory directly.
2018-06-15T16:05:26Z beach: But that functionality would not be accessible to ordinary users in "user" mode.  All of that is totally unimportant for the overall safety of the system.  It still has nothing to do with a kernel.  Such a privileged environment might also be
2018-06-15T16:05:48Z beach: warweasle: I don't think you would want this system for embedded code.
2018-06-15T16:06:26Z warweasle: But parts of it might be useful. You never know what might give you an idea that simplifies a project immensely.
2018-06-15T16:06:42Z beach: ... might also be used for compiler-backend stuff that should not be accessible to the application programmer.
2018-06-15T16:06:49Z on_ion: hey guys this doesnt look like common lisp
2018-06-15T16:06:58Z beach: warweasle: That's true of course.
2018-06-15T16:07:23Z nirved: beach: i looked a bit at the GC, there's Staccato, don't know if it's relevant to lisp: https://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-groved/rc24504.pdf
2018-06-15T16:07:58Z beach: nirved: It could very well be.
2018-06-15T16:08:04Z warweasle: *IF* I could bootstrap an implementation of lisp onto the machine, then I might have a lot of fun poking the device.
2018-06-15T16:08:12Z beach: nirved: But that's not what I am planning for SICL, etc.
2018-06-15T16:08:44Z beach: nirved: But GC is very complicated in terms of predicting performance, so it's too early to determine whether my plan will work out.
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2018-06-15T16:09:09Z beach: warweasle: And it would be safer and easier than if you do it with (invalid) C.
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2018-06-15T16:13:26Z beach: on_ion: Are you saying this discussion is off topic?
2018-06-15T16:16:09Z on_ion: beach: nope sorry, just wondering if this was all common lisp, which would need a lot more than bare metal core runtime
2018-06-15T16:16:12Z jackdaniel: if we insist it is CL-only channel (not lisp-in-general-related-channel), then it might be a case
2018-06-15T16:16:16Z on_ion: ie. if the hardware was lisp
2018-06-15T16:16:37Z on_ion: idk if its #lisp or ##lisp that is CL-only, to me it doesnt matter
2018-06-15T16:16:40Z beach: jackdaniel: Well, we do talk a lot about FFI here.
2018-06-15T16:16:41Z dlowe: my take was that beach was talking about common lisp
2018-06-15T16:16:47Z beach: I was, yes.
2018-06-15T16:16:51Z random-nick: well, it's common lisp if it implements the standard...
2018-06-15T16:16:53Z on_ion: i mean it matters but i go with the flow of whatever people are talking about
2018-06-15T16:17:03Z dlowe: it's in the topic
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2018-06-15T16:17:08Z dlowe: on both #lisp and ##lisp
2018-06-15T16:17:16Z jackdaniel: beach: ffi is part of *existing* implementations, but whatever. if people around are happy I have nothing against. just dropped my 2 cents
2018-06-15T16:17:21Z on_ion: a lisp OS would have a lot of boilerplate to hoist the CL system then
2018-06-15T16:17:28Z beach: jackdaniel: Got it.
2018-06-15T16:17:35Z dlowe: on_ion: why?
2018-06-15T16:18:08Z beach: on_ion: Bootstrapping a Common Lisp system is an interesting topic.
2018-06-15T16:18:12Z on_ion: dlowe: well, wait are you really asking? how could someone run CL without a CL implementation ?
2018-06-15T16:18:25Z on_ion: dlowe: like said, unless the hardware is lisp
2018-06-15T16:18:36Z dlowe: on_ion: we have CL compilers that produce machine code.
2018-06-15T16:18:40Z beach: on_ion: You would build an executable on a different system with an existing Common Lisp implementation.
2018-06-15T16:18:57Z on_ion: yes but, you still need that CL implementation alive and kicking to have a lisp system, no?
2018-06-15T16:19:08Z beach: Only to create the executable.
2018-06-15T16:19:19Z beach: Then you would have your own Common Lisp system.
2018-06-15T16:19:36Z on_ion: oh, so its just an OS written in lisp, but not providing a CL system ?
2018-06-15T16:19:53Z random-nick: why not?
2018-06-15T16:19:57Z beach: No, no, it *IS* a Common Lisp implementation.
2018-06-15T16:19:59Z on_ion: if you bootstrap another CL system its still a requirement of having a CL system
2018-06-15T16:20:06Z on_ion: beach: right =)
2018-06-15T16:20:11Z jackdaniel: on_ion: same comes to any program (except ones writtenn in hand machine code) – you need kicking C compiler to build C compiler (or Linux kernel)
2018-06-15T16:20:34Z random-nick: there are already CL implementations like SBCL and CMUCL that bootstrap from an existing implementation
2018-06-15T16:20:36Z White_Flame: if you need an x86-hosted C compiler to generate an ARM program, does that mean the program has a requirement of x86?  not really
2018-06-15T16:20:38Z on_ion: jackdaniel: a CL system requires the full CL system to be a CL system, no? C executables dont need C compilers
2018-06-15T16:20:41Z on_ion: ie. runtime
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2018-06-15T16:20:47Z warweasle: beach: Your "file system" looks alot like my QIX system.
2018-06-15T16:21:08Z beach: warweasle: That's good I guess.
2018-06-15T16:21:13Z on_ion: a running lisp system needs a living lisp VM and all the things, no? am i missing something?
2018-06-15T16:21:25Z on_ion: otherwise what is the point of a lisp os?
2018-06-15T16:21:30Z Bike: C executables usually need a C runtime
2018-06-15T16:21:31Z White_Flame: and C needs a runtime, and Forth needs its software stacks, etc etc
2018-06-15T16:21:33Z Bike: that is, libc
2018-06-15T16:21:34Z on_ion: yes Bike
2018-06-15T16:21:37Z warweasle: No monolithic files but you can link to s-exps from other s-exps.
2018-06-15T16:21:46Z jackdaniel: on_ion: I said that you need C compiler to build C compiler for a new platform for that instance. I think you are a bit confused with a few different (though slightly related) topics
2018-06-15T16:21:53Z Bike: beach is certainly not planning on anything that could be called "minimal" :)
2018-06-15T16:21:58Z on_ion: i am saying that a CL os/kernel needs at bare minimum, a CL implementation.
2018-06-15T16:22:14Z Bike: probably
2018-06-15T16:22:14Z beach: on_ion: Of course, yes.
2018-06-15T16:22:23Z warweasle: beach: But I used them to keep change logs and to remotely access them using UUIDs.
2018-06-15T16:22:32Z on_ion: whereas a C os just needs the C runtime (except the loewr level parts ofc)
2018-06-15T16:22:33Z beach: warweasle: I see.
2018-06-15T16:22:44Z on_ion: beach: ok, ty
2018-06-15T16:22:50Z White_Flame: it all depends on what you mean by "implementation"
2018-06-15T16:22:58Z White_Flame: a deployed CL kernel might not have a compiler, or whatever
2018-06-15T16:22:59Z Bike: i mean you could have a lisp runtime, like how ECL has libecl
2018-06-15T16:23:06Z random-nick: no, a CL implementation only need the things specified in the CL standard
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2018-06-15T16:23:29Z random-nick: it's can still be a CL implementation if it runs on bare metal
2018-06-15T16:23:38Z warweasle: beach: Sort of a "self describing" data, but with a few basic interfaces for text, rich text, image, vector, sound, etc.
2018-06-15T16:24:22Z beach: Interesting.
2018-06-15T16:24:27Z on_ion: so if one gets CL running on the bare, that is a good start
2018-06-15T16:24:43Z beach: on_ion: Oh, that one is easy and has been done twice.
2018-06-15T16:24:46Z jackdaniel: on_ion: #mezzano runs on bare metal, movitz did (does?) too
2018-06-15T16:24:50Z beach: Movitz and Mezzano.
2018-06-15T16:25:03Z on_ion: ok =) what is wrong with those ?
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2018-06-15T16:25:29Z beach: on_ion: They have no protection to speak of, and they are not multi-user.
2018-06-15T16:25:36Z on_ion: even if one could gut out the things one does not want/need, to get CL running on bare, and work on one's own OS ideas from there
2018-06-15T16:25:45Z beach: on_ion: And I believe they plan to use an ordinary file system for Mezzano.
2018-06-15T16:25:45Z jackdaniel: different goals and everybody likes to tinker with his own thing
2018-06-15T16:25:48Z on_ion: beach: but we can code that stuff?
2018-06-15T16:26:12Z on_ion: is there a plain/vanilla bare-metal CL implementation that all the OS experiments could use ?
2018-06-15T16:26:14Z beach: on_ion: I don't think it can be added on top.
2018-06-15T16:26:33Z bugrum: on_ion: I was under the impression that was what Movitz attempted to do
2018-06-15T16:26:36Z on_ion: beach: if one strips out everything but the CL implementation bits
2018-06-15T16:27:01Z jackdaniel: fun fact: froggey created llvm->CL transpiler
2018-06-15T16:27:01Z beach: on_ion: I would much rather start with a Common Lisp system NOT running on bare metal but that I can run with proper debugging support, etc.
2018-06-15T16:27:07Z White_Flame: implementation bits == implementation specifics
2018-06-15T16:27:15Z jackdaniel: so it is possible to run LLVM targetting applications on Mezzano
2018-06-15T16:27:38Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/froggey/Iota (←)
2018-06-15T16:27:51Z on_ion: beach: true, im not knowledgeable in their abilities. i know that NASA had some lisp thing going on with a rocket which definately was bare metal
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2018-06-15T16:28:39Z on_ion: will the OS only accept CL code? ie. fasl?
2018-06-15T16:29:08Z on_ion: (asking because of jackdaniel 's link)
2018-06-15T16:29:38Z White_Flame: what does does Windows accept?
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2018-06-15T16:30:04Z White_Flame: OSes generally "accept" a binary footprint of machine code & data with start address & links to system stuff
2018-06-15T16:30:10Z random-nick: on_ion: why would that matter? lisp is turing complete
2018-06-15T16:30:11Z on_ion: native code wrapped in a PZ thing basically
2018-06-15T16:30:12Z White_Flame: no matter the language
2018-06-15T16:30:35Z White_Flame: or, no mattter the high level language, to be specific
2018-06-15T16:30:41Z on_ion: White_Flame: yeah. so im just wondering why there is a llvm->CL transpiler if one cannot simply execute the llvm like on a regular OS
2018-06-15T16:31:22Z White_Flame: because lisp environments don't have a notion of "program" as a base concept
2018-06-15T16:31:23Z on_ion: im curious because beach mentioned security also , which i am interpreting a bit like a CL sandbox
2018-06-15T16:32:06Z on_ion: so on a lispOS we would have to write everything as CL? (this is what i am asking.)
2018-06-15T16:32:29Z White_Flame: everything would have to compile down to whatever its base execution model is
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2018-06-15T16:32:42Z jackdaniel: nothing prevents you from writing C compiler in CL
2018-06-15T16:32:44Z White_Flame: which is whatever it uses to generate machine code to its ABI
2018-06-15T16:32:51Z jackdaniel: I think there even was one, called vacietis
2018-06-15T16:33:04Z White_Flame: old lisp machines ran on stack machine hardware, iirc
2018-06-15T16:33:11Z jackdaniel: which compiled into an object on whom you could call main function
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2018-06-15T16:33:32Z on_ion: White_Flame: so kinda like fasl? a CL bytecode?
2018-06-15T16:33:47Z White_Flame: and there's nothing stopping webasm-style C execution footprints
2018-06-15T16:33:56Z Bike: I think beach's particular design doesn't really allow arbitrary binaries in the same way.
2018-06-15T16:33:59Z White_Flame: fasl is a file format, it's not the runtime ABI
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2018-06-15T16:35:59Z on_ion: fasl is what is emitted and loaded after sbcl compiles lisp, right ? same practical purpose as if it were a "CL bytecode" ?
2018-06-15T16:36:23Z on_ion: i dont know the tech details. just asking if a lisp OS would only execute lisp
2018-06-15T16:36:28Z White_Flame: it's roughly equivalent to loading source code
2018-06-15T16:36:47Z White_Flame: basically, what you're asking is the equivalent of running in random patterns in a vocabulary minefield ;)
2018-06-15T16:36:52Z Bike: sbcl fasl files contain machine code, not bytecode. but yes, it's the output when you compile a file.
2018-06-15T16:36:57Z on_ion: can it be "decompiled" back into source code ?
2018-06-15T16:36:59Z White_Flame: many many terms are used really out of their useful context
2018-06-15T16:37:19Z on_ion: ah hmm.
2018-06-15T16:37:23Z akkad: a fasl parser would be nice
2018-06-15T16:37:24Z on_ion: didnt know they were system-specific
2018-06-15T16:37:58Z White_Flame: fasls are very specific to implementation versions
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2018-06-15T16:38:08Z jackdaniel: for instance ECL's "FASL" files are in fact shared objects (as *.so libraries) on Linux
2018-06-15T16:38:09Z akkad: and os, and isa
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2018-06-15T16:38:17Z on_ion: aha, i see =)
2018-06-15T16:38:41Z akkad: but you can run fasls directly
2018-06-15T16:38:55Z beach: on_ion: Traditional code that uses the full address space would have to be run in a separate process, presenting itself as a single Common Lisp function.
2018-06-15T16:38:56Z beach: Such code could not directly access Common Lisp objects in the system, but they would have to use something similar to file descriptors.  That would be just as inconvenient as it is on Unix systems now, so it would probably be uncommon.
2018-06-15T16:39:06Z on_ion: i really like the idea of the filesystem being "live objects" in the "image"
2018-06-15T16:39:20Z froggey: beach: no, I intend to use an in-image filesystem as the primary fs. there's a basic proof of concept already (the local filesystem), but I haven't really nailed down any details
2018-06-15T16:39:37Z on_ion: beach: ahh i see, cool =)
2018-06-15T16:39:39Z beach: froggey: Great!
2018-06-15T16:39:58Z beach: froggey: I just think I saw some work on vfat or something similar.
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2018-06-15T16:40:27Z White_Flame: froggey: in-image as in full single address space? :)
2018-06-15T16:40:29Z beach: froggey: I guess that could be useful for things like USB sticks.
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2018-06-15T16:40:57Z froggey: White_Flame: right
2018-06-15T16:41:06Z White_Flame: ooh nice
2018-06-15T16:41:23Z beach: froggey: So are you making good progress?
2018-06-15T16:41:46Z White_Flame: I haven't had the chance to use any true single addresses OSes yet
2018-06-15T16:41:47Z froggey: beach: yes, I think vfat was implemented to help the developer learn the system
2018-06-15T16:41:51Z White_Flame: *space
2018-06-15T16:41:54Z beach: Oh, I see.
2018-06-15T16:42:13Z beach: froggey: It would be great if you could plan to come to ELS in Genoa.  We could chat about things like this.
2018-06-15T16:42:14Z on_ion: hmm Mezzano github page describes much emacs-style things...
2018-06-15T16:43:18Z on_ion: could it [theoretically or in future] run CLIM and second climacs ?
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2018-06-15T16:43:39Z beach: I think McCLIM already runs on Mezzano.
2018-06-15T16:43:53Z on_ion: ohhh =)
2018-06-15T16:44:00Z froggey: my current focus is getting the mezzano backend for mcclim into an acceptable state for demo 4
2018-06-15T16:44:09Z skidd0: Hey guys. I'm attempting to build a small command line program on Linux in Common Lisp. Does anyone have experience with distributing small lisp programs? And, any favorite libraries for handling command line args? There seems to be a lot of options out there for both questions, so, I'm looking for community input
2018-06-15T16:44:12Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid backend is not merged yet, but fittestbits did a great work with it
2018-06-15T16:44:24Z beach: Oh, OK.
2018-06-15T16:44:41Z rpg: skidd0: I have used buildapp successfully, which automates a lot of the hard parts.
2018-06-15T16:44:48Z jackdaniel: skidd0: check out clon (dider verna wrote it)
2018-06-15T16:44:50Z on_ion: how does it run Nethack? arbitrary binaries support?
2018-06-15T16:44:58Z jackdaniel: it provides great handling of the command line arguments
2018-06-15T16:45:05Z jackdaniel: and works on *many* implementations
2018-06-15T16:45:06Z skidd0: yeah i have CLON (and a few others) pulled up in Chrome atm
2018-06-15T16:45:09Z White_Flame: skidd0: I've deployed really small initialization utilities as standalone executables.  They're obviously still laughably large in filesize for what they do, but it's nice to include all the libraries & lisp knowledge that the main application uses
2018-06-15T16:45:14Z skidd0: CLON looks the most straightforward
2018-06-15T16:45:28Z froggey: and yes, I'd like to attend ELS, but it's a bit too expensive for me
2018-06-15T16:45:36Z beach: froggey: That can be fixed.
2018-06-15T16:45:41Z jackdaniel: I've used clon in a few things and it worked great
2018-06-15T16:45:47Z rpg: skidd0: I have heard different things about how easy it is to move buildapp apps around.  I believe that there can be issues with shared libraries when you move them, but I'm afraid I do not understand these issues myself\
2018-06-15T16:46:01Z froggey: on_ion: that's a bit of a cheat, it's telnetting to the nethack server on nethack.alt.org
2018-06-15T16:46:28Z skidd0: well so has anyone build 'apps' that are easy for other (non-lispers) to download and then execute/use?
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2018-06-15T16:46:45Z jackdaniel: rpg: basically when you dump sbcl image with foreign libraries loaded, it tries to load them from the very same location when you start the application
2018-06-15T16:46:56Z jackdaniel: so in order to avoid that you need to close all shared libraries before dumping image
2018-06-15T16:46:57Z on_ion: froggey: oh! nope thats cool =) most players play through telnet afaik ^_^
2018-06-15T16:47:10Z jackdaniel: and load them in main function at the beginning
2018-06-15T16:47:29Z froggey: I did write Iota to support some C programs (doom & quake run)
2018-06-15T16:47:45Z rpg: jackdaniel: I have never built anything with FFI that uses buildapp, so that shouldn't be a problem for me. I was wondering if there were any shared libraries that SBCL itself would load.
2018-06-15T16:47:55Z beach leaves to have dinner with his (admittedly small) family.
2018-06-15T16:47:57Z froggey: there's no support for running arbitrary native code though, everything must conform to the mezzano abi for the GC
2018-06-15T16:48:02Z on_ion: froggey: ah wonderful =) framebuffer?
2018-06-15T16:48:10Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2018-06-15T16:48:28Z jackdaniel: only those which you load yourself. the trick is that it assumes that libraries loaded when you dump image will be at the exactly same location
2018-06-15T16:48:28Z froggey: beach: fixed how? (when you get back)
2018-06-15T16:48:50Z rpg: jackdaniel: Thanks!  That makes me feel better, because I haven't done that!
2018-06-15T16:48:59Z froggey: on_ion: yes, just basic framebuffer support right now. the video mode is set by the bootloader & not changed after that
2018-06-15T16:49:10Z on_ion: cool cool
2018-06-15T16:49:51Z jackdaniel: rpg: (of course that applies to the libraries your dependencies load). also there is a trick with cl+ssl – you need to call also "reload" function, because some structures must be initialized in the foreign library
2018-06-15T16:50:10Z rpg: jackdaniel: Ah.  Thanks for the pointer!
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2018-06-15T17:00:36Z jackdaniel: sure
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2018-06-15T17:09:49Z White_Flame: skidd0: executables are executables
2018-06-15T17:09:55Z White_Flame: lisp really doesn't change much there
2018-06-15T17:10:18Z White_Flame: you need to figure out what sort of file structure it wants around it, or if it's purely self contained
2018-06-15T17:10:46Z White_Flame: and use the commonly expected installation procedures specific to your OS
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2018-06-15T17:18:20Z skidd0: well so a sbcl save-and-die produces an executable
2018-06-15T17:18:35Z skidd0: and if i do that sbcl dave-lisp-and-die on my linux box
2018-06-15T17:18:44Z skidd0: can i share that produced executable?
2018-06-15T17:18:48Z skidd0: with other linux users?
2018-06-15T17:19:20Z White_Flame: um yeah, that's what an executable is ;)
2018-06-15T17:19:30Z skidd0: well sure
2018-06-15T17:19:37Z White_Flame: there's no system-intsalled runtime like java or C#
2018-06-15T17:19:40Z dlowe: there may be some oddities with shared libraries if you use some
2018-06-15T17:19:41Z skidd0: but do they need my distro?
2018-06-15T17:19:56Z White_Flame: that's not a lisp-specific issue
2018-06-15T17:20:00Z skidd0: the exe has the sbcl image in it's core, right?
2018-06-15T17:20:08Z White_Flame: yes
2018-06-15T17:20:10Z skidd0: okay
2018-06-15T17:20:13Z White_Flame: plus your changes
2018-06-15T17:20:23Z White_Flame: as the sbcl executable itself is a runtime core + image
2018-06-15T17:20:27Z dlowe: White_Flame: it kind of is, because our lisp systems don't use libdl to automatically link all the shared library code back up
2018-06-15T17:20:31Z skidd0: sorry, guys, i'm thrying to grok all this CS stuff my "higher-ed" never taught me
2018-06-15T17:20:49Z White_Flame: well it's mostly about Linux pragmatics, not really CS stuff
2018-06-15T17:20:53Z dlowe: no need to apologize. That's what we're here for.
2018-06-15T17:21:03Z White_Flame: and yeah, it's a more complex space than windows or osx might be for these particular points
2018-06-15T17:21:06Z skidd0: my understanding of executables is basically that they are black boxes
2018-06-15T17:21:18Z dlowe: they're just files.
2018-06-15T17:21:25Z dlowe: they have bytes in them.
2018-06-15T17:21:26Z skidd0: that are machine code?
2018-06-15T17:21:29Z skidd0: right?
2018-06-15T17:21:32Z dlowe: well, there's machine code in them
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2018-06-15T17:21:40Z dlowe: but generally it's more structured than that
2018-06-15T17:21:43Z White_Flame: headers + machine code chunks + data chunks + import/export tables
2018-06-15T17:22:13Z skidd0: man the more i dig into programming, the more i realize how pointless paying tuition is
2018-06-15T17:22:17Z dlowe: there's some good resources on understanding the ELF format
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2018-06-15T17:22:27Z dlowe: it's not... entirely pointless
2018-06-15T17:22:29Z skidd0: do you have any?
2018-06-15T17:22:54Z skidd0: it gets you a nice peice of paper that tells the world you "know" things
2018-06-15T17:23:00Z skidd0: that they never taught you
2018-06-15T17:23:07Z dlowe: no, it lays intellectual foundations for later
2018-06-15T17:23:20Z skidd0: i thought that was High School
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2018-06-15T17:23:50Z White_Flame: programming is still a craft.  there's no major thread of academics that teaches it
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2018-06-15T17:24:06Z dlowe: I dropped out of college and when I compare my career with my programming peers that stuck with it, it was *much* harder for me.  Those fundamentals are great to learn up front.
2018-06-15T17:24:07Z White_Flame: cs = the "science" of computation.  ce = building hardware.  software engineering = project management
2018-06-15T17:24:24Z White_Flame: nowhere in there are the actual good practices of effective programming
2018-06-15T17:24:29Z skidd0: i'm somputer security
2018-06-15T17:24:39Z skidd0: which means even less of the fundamentals
2018-06-15T17:24:41Z dlowe: oh, I don't have any experience with those.
2018-06-15T17:24:55Z dlowe: I was assuming CS
2018-06-15T17:25:08Z skidd0: well my interests are evenly split between CS and security
2018-06-15T17:25:09Z White_Flame: dlowe: yeah, I'm in the same boat (though I didn't willingly drop out; I got "financial aid"ed out of school :-P)
2018-06-15T17:25:20Z skidd0: but, i'm interested in your experience as a drop out vs your peers
2018-06-15T17:25:32Z skidd0: both of you, if you're willing to share
2018-06-15T17:25:35Z dlowe: White_Flame: fortunately, I'm old enough to precede the financial aid fiasco
2018-06-15T17:25:44Z skidd0: i'm looking at my last year of undergrad and i just can't bear the thought of it
2018-06-15T17:25:55Z White_Flame: dlowe: my university experience was in the mid 90s
2018-06-15T17:25:59Z skidd0: it makes me physically ill to think about, honestly
2018-06-15T17:26:42Z dlowe: skidd0: you should be talking to a dept advisor for advice, not IRC randos
2018-06-15T17:26:46Z White_Flame: the school didn't file my financial forms, and it went downhill from there :)
2018-06-15T17:26:52Z dlowe: they should give you resources
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2018-06-15T17:26:58Z skidd0: my dept advisors want me to go to school
2018-06-15T17:27:05Z skidd0: because i pay them if i go to school
2018-06-15T17:27:17Z White_Flame: skidd0: if you want to get out of school, then push hard on actually getting industry contacts and job offers
2018-06-15T17:27:22Z skidd0: they are also the same idiots that fuck up my schedule every years
2018-06-15T17:27:22Z dlowe: no need to be cynical before checking it out
2018-06-15T17:27:28Z skidd0: i have two jobs
2018-06-15T17:27:38Z dlowe: also, you may be able to transfer to a course of study you like more
2018-06-15T17:27:41Z skidd0: one is doing IT Transition work for a company that wants to be sold
2018-06-15T17:28:04Z White_Flame: but when it comes to security, I think the uni papers are still a barrier to entry
2018-06-15T17:28:11Z skidd0: yeah...
2018-06-15T17:28:14Z skidd0: man fuck
2018-06-15T17:28:23Z skidd0: guess i gotta 'man up'
2018-06-15T17:28:38Z warweasle: skidd0: *Person* up.  :P
2018-06-15T17:28:55Z White_Flame: automaton up
2018-06-15T17:28:57Z dlowe: embolden thyself
2018-06-15T17:29:02Z skidd0: i am
2018-06-15T17:29:05Z skidd0: that's why im here
2018-06-15T17:29:18Z warweasle: Embolden an italicize yourself!
2018-06-15T17:29:19Z skidd0: you know what they taught me in an OOP class?
2018-06-15T17:29:27Z White_Flame: static?
2018-06-15T17:29:28Z skidd0: that inheritance is a thing
2018-06-15T17:29:31Z warweasle: skidd0: Do I want to know?
2018-06-15T17:29:36Z skidd0: not why its a thing
2018-06-15T17:29:41Z skidd0: not why it's good or usefull
2018-06-15T17:29:50Z jackdaniel thinks this discussion steadily moves offtopic (that is in #lispcafe direction;)
2018-06-15T17:29:53Z dlowe: we're pretty far from talking about lisp now
2018-06-15T17:30:02Z skidd0: oh
2018-06-15T17:30:06Z warweasle: CLOS is good.
2018-06-15T17:30:10Z skidd0: fair enough
2018-06-15T17:30:17Z dlowe: but I like chatting about programming if you want to talk about oop in #lispcafe
2018-06-15T17:30:35Z skidd0: i would feel od going to another channel just to complain
2018-06-15T17:30:40Z skidd0: i'll stay on topic
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2018-06-15T17:40:31Z skidd0: oh hey anyone with experience using UIOP?
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2018-06-15T17:47:30Z Xach: phoe: no news
2018-06-15T17:47:32Z Xach: skidd0: yes
2018-06-15T17:48:36Z phoe: Xach: aw! do you need any help getting your hard drive?
2018-06-15T17:49:33Z skidd0: xach, on a high level, when might one use your buildapp vs uiop
2018-06-15T17:50:51Z Xach: skidd0: for building binaries? not sure. i don't know what uiop offers.
2018-06-15T17:51:06Z Xach: It is probably more ported so that would be useful on not-SBCL and not-Clozure CL
2018-06-15T17:51:22Z White_Flame: it's always best to just use the default facilities first and get a hang of what's going on and what needs to be done
2018-06-15T17:51:34Z White_Flame: then you can make better decisions on what features you need if you actually do need something more complex/bundled
2018-06-15T17:51:41Z skidd0: yeah i think i'm getting to far into the bushes
2018-06-15T17:52:05Z Xach: phoe: i have two hard drives and a fast computer running them but i have been away from home for a week so there has been no progress. i am optimistic i can build something soon. i really would like to get my old hard drive recovered though. that might involve shipping it somewhere.
2018-06-15T17:53:55Z Xach: I was once very disciplined about backups. I have been punished for backsliding into laxity.
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2018-06-15T18:21:27Z on_ion: i sometimes wish that we had something like ChangeSets for lisp images, like squeak has for its smalltalk images
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2018-06-15T18:21:59Z on_ion: CL ofc
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2018-06-15T19:04:55Z phoe: Xach: I see. Good luck with it!
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2018-06-15T19:12:15Z pjb: on_ion: don't dream, implement!
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2018-06-15T19:33:15Z phoe: on_ion: they already exist
2018-06-15T19:33:19Z phoe: they are called FASLs
2018-06-15T19:33:22Z phoe: (:
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2018-06-15T19:42:02Z on_ion: phoe: er, already mentioned those earlier. intent of comparison to squeak smalltalk ChangeSets, those are portable across implementations and machines. they are essentially source code diffs.
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2018-06-15T19:43:48Z phoe: ooh. I see.
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2018-06-15T20:01:55Z pjb: source code diffs are relatively portable…
2018-06-15T20:02:29Z pjb: Most often you cannot apply such patch, even on the same implementation and machine, when you try to apply them on a different version.
2018-06-15T20:02:40Z pjb: not without conflicts and a lot of rejected patches…
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2018-06-15T20:21:38Z jmercouris: I'm reading this article here: http://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#A-SLY-tour-for-SLIME-users about SLY
2018-06-15T20:21:49Z jmercouris: and I'm wondering, any SLY users in here? can you tell me why you prefer it to Slime?
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2018-06-15T20:25:38Z jmercouris: I don't see anything that can't also be done in slime, but maybe I'm just missing some things
2018-06-15T20:26:59Z Bike: does slime-mrepl work? i remember it being busted
2018-06-15T20:27:39Z rpg: jmercouris: I believe psilord who you may find in #lispgames, uses it.
2018-06-15T20:27:44Z Bike: this intro is starting with a bunch of stuff slime doesn't have, so maybe i'm misunderstanding you
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2018-06-15T20:28:14Z jmercouris: Well, there are a few distinct things
2018-06-15T20:28:16Z jmercouris: like tags
2018-06-15T20:28:30Z jmercouris: I mean stickers
2018-06-15T20:28:44Z jmercouris: but I don't see how those would be absolutely dealbreakers
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2018-06-15T20:29:24Z Bike: i doubt sly is going for some kind of amazing transcendental experience, just better than slime
2018-06-15T20:30:14Z jmercouris: I figured, just wanted to make sure
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2018-06-15T20:44:12Z Xach: I remember I didn't want to try slime because i liked ILISP. But actually using it showed me how wrong I was. Even though at a high level they do the same things.
2018-06-15T20:44:19Z Xach: Sly is pretty nice and I wish I had more time to try it.
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2018-06-15T20:49:41Z Xach: The slime video helped a ton in persuading me to try it. Reading static pages and screenshots, and using your imagination, is not always persuasive
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2018-06-15T21:02:34Z dim: the cost of changing one's habit is very high, and slime is pretty good at what it does already
2018-06-15T21:02:47Z Xach: I really want stickers and multiple repls!!
2018-06-15T21:03:00Z Xach: The friction for me was down to keystrokes
2018-06-15T21:03:10Z dim: multiple repls? I think we have that already in slime, don't we?
2018-06-15T21:03:25Z Bike: it's a contrib
2018-06-15T21:03:30Z Bike: which might be broken
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2018-06-15T21:14:22Z Xach: do we? ni
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2018-06-15T21:19:22Z attila_lendvai: slime has most of the cool stuff stuffed away in contribs, e.g. the fuzzy completion
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2018-06-16T00:42:40Z mfiano: The benefit of Sly is builtin mrepl, stickers, everything being a button to inspect, amoung many improvements and bug fixes.
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2018-06-16T00:44:01Z on_ion: >stickers
2018-06-16T00:44:11Z mfiano: as of a few days ago, even builtin company completion with zero configuration that is much snappier than the old sly-company, or slime-company
2018-06-16T00:45:01Z mfiano: I switched from SLIME to Sly about 3 years ago and I'm still happy with that choice whenever I am reminded by using SLIME
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2018-06-16T02:00:13Z kuwze: Xach: does this still work for you? http://lispblog.xach.com/post/112939066338/using-paredit-within-screen
2018-06-16T02:00:22Z kuwze: I heard that it quit working in Emacs 24+ and I am trying to find a solution
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2018-06-16T02:10:01Z kuwze: Xach: I got it to work, sorry to bug you
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2018-06-16T05:38:16Z asarch: I did: (ql:quickload "clim-examples") in "This is SBCL 1.3.14.debian, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp." and everything is fine, however when I do: (clim-demo:demodemo) I get: https://pastebin.com/0adz1s7D
2018-06-16T05:38:19Z asarch: Why?
2018-06-16T05:39:09Z asarch: In sbcl-1.4.3 for Slackware64 I can evaluate that expression with no problem
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2018-06-16T06:06:37Z jackdaniel: try (clim-demo::demodemo)
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2018-06-16T06:06:57Z jackdaniel: maybe you have outdated quicklisp repositories?
2018-06-16T06:07:13Z jackdaniel: so maybe it is not sbcl version problem but mcclim is not the same?
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2018-06-16T06:09:02Z asarch: no non-whitespace characters in string "".
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2018-06-16T06:16:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-16T06:21:14Z asarch: Guten Morgen beach :-)
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2018-06-16T06:37:00Z asarch: From Debian (the full log): http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577683
2018-06-16T06:37:14Z asarch: From Slackware64: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577682
2018-06-16T06:38:24Z jackdaniel: as suspected, you load two different versions of McCLIM
2018-06-16T06:38:35Z jackdaniel: one is more recent than the other
2018-06-16T06:39:14Z jackdaniel: since quicklisp distribution seems to be the same, you probably have another mcclim copy somewhere in local-projects or common-lisp directory
2018-06-16T06:39:42Z jackdaniel: notice difference in instructions: ";; try (CLIM-DEMO:DEMODEMO)" vs ";; try (CLIM-DEMO::DEMODEMO)"
2018-06-16T06:40:04Z jackdaniel: needless to say, that's what I've suggested before you pasted logs
2018-06-16T06:40:14Z asarch: Thank you jackdaniel
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2018-06-16T06:40:19Z jackdaniel: sure
2018-06-16T06:40:19Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-06-16T06:41:57Z asarch: I didn't see this: ./.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-1.3.14.debian-linux-x64/usr/share/common-lisp/source/mcclim
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2018-06-16T07:44:15Z jackdaniel: so you have mcclim installed in /usr/share/common-lisp/source/ for some reason
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2018-06-16T08:29:54Z makomo: does cl-who only recognize the "htm", "str", etc. symbols if they're interned in its own package?
2018-06-16T08:31:25Z makomo: hmm i guess that makes sense, since how would you otherwise call your own functions with those names
2018-06-16T08:31:44Z makomo: and i just remembered it uses a macrolet to do its code-walking
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2018-06-16T09:57:33Z kuribas: what's character syntax in lisp?  I tried #\c in sbcl but it doesn't work ...
2018-06-16T09:59:31Z phoe: kuribas: #\c
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2018-06-16T09:59:55Z phoe: (coerce (list #\a #\b #\c) 'string) ;=> "abc"
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2018-06-16T10:01:44Z kuribas: when I type #\c it just hangs...
2018-06-16T10:02:13Z phoe: kuribas: can you give me a screenshot?
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2018-06-16T10:03:08Z shangul: I've ran into a problem. I decided to spend 1-2 year on Lisp and do my stuff in this language. but now I see I may not have my projects done in Lisp because I'll program them in my previous language's way. on the other hand I can't wait 1-2 year or even months to have enough experience.
2018-06-16T10:03:10Z kuribas: erm, now it works... strange
2018-06-16T10:03:27Z phoe: shangul: I know the pain
2018-06-16T10:03:40Z shangul: So what should I do?
2018-06-16T10:03:59Z phoe: the thing I've employed is write snippets or pages of code and then post it here and on #clnoobs to get reviews
2018-06-16T10:04:14Z phoe: that way I got a lot of information about how to write the same thing in more idiomatic Lisp.
2018-06-16T10:04:38Z phoe: there's a lot of lispers around here who are willing to freely share that information and do small reviews. you can leverage that fact.
2018-06-16T10:04:53Z shangul: "small reviews"
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2018-06-16T10:05:14Z phoe: yep - single functions, single files, perhaps small projects
2018-06-16T10:05:26Z phoe: make sure that you get these right, then use that information to construct larger stuff.
2018-06-16T10:05:35Z shangul: I know I'll be able to learn and program my project in Lisp even through I'm a beginner. but I'll do them not in Lisp's way
2018-06-16T10:05:43Z phoe: shangul: of course
2018-06-16T10:05:45Z phoe: that is to be expected
2018-06-16T10:05:54Z phoe: no one is born a lisper
2018-06-16T10:06:30Z phoe: just write your code and then post it here
2018-06-16T10:06:30Z shangul: So I shouldn't program my projects till I get enough experience. but I can't wait till then.
2018-06-16T10:06:36Z phoe: shangul: of course not
2018-06-16T10:06:39Z shangul: "small reviews"
2018-06-16T10:06:41Z phoe: start writing now
2018-06-16T10:06:46Z phoe: then post what you have written
2018-06-16T10:06:57Z phoe: then be ready to accept remarks
2018-06-16T10:07:01Z shangul: okay then...
2018-06-16T10:07:03Z phoe: then accept them
2018-06-16T10:07:08Z phoe: then apply them
2018-06-16T10:07:11Z phoe: then go back to step 1
2018-06-16T10:07:26Z shangul: resolve the same problem?
2018-06-16T10:07:32Z phoe: no - start writing more code
2018-06-16T10:07:45Z phoe: then post what you have written, etc..
2018-06-16T10:08:05Z shangul: then you review and then I should change or rewrite it
2018-06-16T10:08:10Z Guest9683: shangul: there's no lisp way: the lisp way is to adapt to YOUR way.
2018-06-16T10:08:18Z shangul: (plural you)
2018-06-16T10:08:24Z phoe: shangul: more or less that
2018-06-16T10:08:29Z phoe: Guest9683: actually not
2018-06-16T10:08:39Z phoe: there's coding conventions even in the Lisp land
2018-06-16T10:09:14Z phoe: you are free to customize the language to your own liking, but don't expect other people to abide to that liking
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2018-06-16T10:10:21Z phoe: shangul: also this applies to many programming languages, not just Lisp
2018-06-16T10:10:33Z pjb: Coding conventions aren't universal.  If your problem calls for other conventions, then your project can apply entirely different coding conventions.
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2018-06-16T10:10:49Z shangul: phoe, yes
2018-06-16T10:11:03Z phoe: pjb: in the general case you need to learn the rules before breaking them
2018-06-16T10:11:13Z pjb: As long as you a good domain related reason.
2018-06-16T10:11:16Z pjb: Sure.
2018-06-16T10:11:33Z phoe: it's hard to learn how to properly use macros to customize Lisp if you don't learn the basics of them first. which is where the basic conventions come in.
2018-06-16T10:11:34Z shangul: for example someone who comes to Python from C, writes something like "for i in range(len(L))"
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2018-06-16T10:11:58Z phoe: shangul: yep, and the python folk will teach that person their way
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2018-06-16T10:12:23Z phoe: where in Lisp that would be (loop for i below (length list) ...) if I understand that snippet correctly
2018-06-16T10:12:36Z shangul: Now I'm switching from Python to Lisp and I'm afraid the same thing will happen
2018-06-16T10:12:44Z phoe: shangul: no need to be afraid
2018-06-16T10:12:48Z phoe: it will happen almost surely
2018-06-16T10:12:53Z phoe: (:
2018-06-16T10:13:10Z phoe: that's the joys of learning new languages
2018-06-16T10:13:11Z pjb: shangul: this example is low-level in the global program architecture. It doesn't matter.  The higher levels matter more.
2018-06-16T10:13:16Z phoe: or new stuffs
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2018-06-16T10:16:33Z shangul: Problem: Write a program which asks user's name, greets him. Then asks 2 numbers(3 digits max), connects those 2 together(23,54 => 2354), multiplies this number at reversed version of itself(e.g. 543 and 345). Solution: https://apaste.info/7HeB
2018-06-16T10:16:49Z shangul: 3 digits max, each
2018-06-16T10:17:24Z Bike: and not 23054, huh
2018-06-16T10:17:46Z phoe: I assume this is more like string concatenation
2018-06-16T10:17:55Z pjb: shangul: see, you wrote low level expressions. They may be correct and nice and all. But your program architecture is bull shit. Literally. A huge pile of nothing.
2018-06-16T10:17:55Z phoe: "23" + "54" = "2354"
2018-06-16T10:18:28Z phoe: shangul: okay, let's work through this.
2018-06-16T10:18:45Z shangul: pjb, that's my problem
2018-06-16T10:19:21Z pjb: You should have written: (defun program () (great-user (ask-user-name)) (let ((n  (connect (ask-number) (ask-number)))) (* n (reverse-number n))))
2018-06-16T10:19:45Z pjb: Then  you could see and prove that this program does exactly what the problem statement says.
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2018-06-16T10:20:58Z phoe: shangul: pjb just put some structure in your code.
2018-06-16T10:21:03Z phoe: properly indented, this would be https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/816#816
2018-06-16T10:21:03Z pjb: Then, you can learn about nice lisp types and operators, to benefit from what CL provides.  But this is less important than having a good program structure.
2018-06-16T10:21:24Z pjb: s/great/greet/ above, sorry.
2018-06-16T10:21:35Z phoe: if you try to compile this, Lisp will complain about undefined functions GREET-USER, ASK-USER-NAME, ASK-NUMBER, REVERSE-NUMBER.
2018-06-16T10:21:48Z phoe: ...which is pretty sane, because we did not define these functions yet.
2018-06-16T10:21:56Z pjb: Then you recursively apply the same process to those undefined functions.
2018-06-16T10:22:13Z pjb: Notice program = routine = procedure = function. It's all the same concept.
2018-06-16T10:22:50Z phoe: Oh, and CONNECT.
2018-06-16T10:23:00Z phoe: The thing is, these smaller functions have much smaller responsibilities. One of them is for greeting the user, the other is for asking a number, the other is for connecting them, and so on, and so on.
2018-06-16T10:23:24Z phoe: Smaller, well-defined functions make it much easier to find erroneous program behavior.
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2018-06-16T10:24:19Z pjb: You can test more easily small functions.  Or prove them.
2018-06-16T10:24:37Z shangul: why defining a function for these small stuff?
2018-06-16T10:24:56Z pjb: We just explained.
2018-06-16T10:25:07Z pjb: Also, even small functions can be reused.
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2018-06-16T10:25:42Z shangul: yes but in this program, these functions are not going to be used, I'm not greeting the user anymore
2018-06-16T10:25:44Z pjb: shangul: using functions, small or big (actually they should not be big), is raising the abstraction level of your code.  This is good, because it makes it easier to understand.
2018-06-16T10:25:50Z phoe: shangul: providing information for the programmer
2018-06-16T10:26:03Z phoe: you no longer have a stream of FORMATs
2018-06-16T10:26:10Z phoe: you have functions with defined names
2018-06-16T10:26:11Z pjb: It makes it closer to the domain of your problem. So you can see more directly the link between your problem statement and your solution program.
2018-06-16T10:26:23Z phoe: and you separate the control flow of your program from what the program is actually doing
2018-06-16T10:26:43Z phoe: you separate what the program is meant to do from how it achieves it.
2018-06-16T10:28:06Z phoe: I need to run and do a thing now - I will refactor your code to more idiomatic Lisp in about an hour if no one does it before me.
2018-06-16T10:28:23Z shangul: no don't
2018-06-16T10:28:28Z shangul: I want to do it myself
2018-06-16T10:28:38Z phoe: shangul: no problem
2018-06-16T10:28:41Z pjb: Do it. we'll compare our solutiosn.
2018-06-16T10:29:09Z phoe: shangul: use the skeleton that pjb provided and implement the rest of the functions.
2018-06-16T10:29:17Z phoe: then we can compare, no problem.
2018-06-16T10:29:43Z shangul: I don't have a good feeling toward this, you shouldn't do my job...
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2018-06-16T10:30:18Z phoe: shangul: oh we are not doing your job
2018-06-16T10:30:32Z phoe: we're giving you a basic idea of what Lisp looks like
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2018-06-16T10:30:50Z phoe: you'll likely need some examples to mimic in the beginning so you can bootstrap your Lisp knowledge.
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2018-06-16T10:31:14Z phoe: doing a single assignment ourselves to give you an example isn't going to do all of your Lisp job. (:
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2018-06-16T10:33:00Z sadsagfjg: :/
2018-06-16T10:33:02Z kuribas: phoe: doesn't a lisp programmer use dotimes?
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2018-06-16T10:34:23Z phoe: kuribas: that's also good
2018-06-16T10:34:32Z kuribas: loop looks very complicated
2018-06-16T10:34:32Z LdBeth: phoe: I think it’s more sane to complain about it after loaded the entire project or file
2018-06-16T10:34:33Z phoe: (dotimes (i 10) ...) === (loop for i below 10 do ...)
2018-06-16T10:34:41Z phoe: LdBeth: complain about what?
2018-06-16T10:35:13Z phoe: kuribas: LOOP is liked by some and disliked by some people
2018-06-16T10:35:26Z phoe: you are correct, DOTIMES is usable in that case, too.
2018-06-16T10:35:35Z kuribas: I come from haskell, where functions do usually just one thing
2018-06-16T10:35:41Z LdBeth: kuribas: in that particular case, a do block is enough
2018-06-16T10:36:16Z kuribas: I suppose I should write idiomatic lisp, if that exists
2018-06-16T10:36:49Z LdBeth: phoe: undefined function
2018-06-16T10:38:51Z beach: kuribas: Of course it exists.
2018-06-16T10:39:37Z LdBeth: kuribas: Traditionally Lisp functions only accept fixed number arguments, and people used something like pattern match to do complicated work.
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2018-06-16T10:41:27Z LdBeth: So Lisp functions can only do one thing if you want
2018-06-16T10:42:12Z White_Flame: Lisp can adopt pretty much whatever style you want
2018-06-16T10:42:30Z kuribas: I'll be writing haskell like combinators in lisp then :)
2018-06-16T10:42:46Z kuribas: monad macros
2018-06-16T10:43:08Z White_Flame: and I'm sure you can grab libraries for those, too
2018-06-16T10:43:22Z White_Flame: although monads & macros do cover a lot of similar space
2018-06-16T10:43:31Z White_Flame: depending on what you want out of them
2018-06-16T10:44:41Z kuribas: yeah, I doubt it'll work as well...
2018-06-16T10:44:57Z White_Flame: you'd be surprised
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2018-06-16T10:45:08Z White_Flame: but then again, purpose built vs general purpose always has its tradeoffs
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2018-06-16T10:45:32Z White_Flame: Lisp tends to be a verbose language, with its literal AST formatting, compared to languages whose syntax is specialized to do very specific things
2018-06-16T10:46:13Z White_Flame: but that also means Lisp can pretty easily express the AST transform of basically any language
2018-06-16T10:46:18Z MichaelRaskin: Monads is a more restricted/structured notion
2018-06-16T10:46:34Z kuribas: I know in scheme people like to spell everything out.
2018-06-16T10:46:39Z kuribas: why haskell poeple abbreviate it.
2018-06-16T10:46:41Z MichaelRaskin: So yes, it makes sense to implement them via macros, which is done a few times
2018-06-16T10:46:48Z White_Flame: and that's not even getting into reader macros, were you _can_ define your own syntactic punctuation if you desire
2018-06-16T10:47:39Z kuribas: However monads without type inference are less handy
2018-06-16T10:48:14Z White_Flame: CLOS can dispatch functions based on parameter class (not as strong as type)
2018-06-16T10:48:30Z White_Flame: so that covers many cases with just the built-in functionality
2018-06-16T10:48:39Z kuribas: ah, so you can make a monad class
2018-06-16T10:48:42Z White_Flame: beyond that, macros
2018-06-16T10:49:45Z kuribas: is a vector just a one dimensional array?
2018-06-16T10:49:51Z White_Flame: yes
2018-06-16T10:49:58Z White_Flame: it's a subclass of array
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2018-06-16T10:51:09Z pjb: shangul: have a look at my solution: https://apaste.info/ynMI
2018-06-16T10:51:37Z phoe: hah, that's already with tests
2018-06-16T10:52:34Z shangul: that's ~100 lines...
2018-06-16T10:52:39Z pjb: programming at the repl naturally produces tests.
2018-06-16T10:52:59Z pjb: shangul: that's a correct program.
2018-06-16T10:53:08Z phoe: shangul: 60% of that are tests
2018-06-16T10:53:13Z pjb: And readable, and you can easily check if it matches the specifications.
2018-06-16T10:54:17Z pjb: Normally, you would put tests in a separate file, but here I left them in the order it was programmed: as soon as you write a function you should test it.  you do it normally at the repl, but if you copy your test cases from the repl to a test function you keep it for posterity.
2018-06-16T10:54:21Z phoe: without tests: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/817#817
2018-06-16T10:54:49Z phoe: also it bugfixes one thing in your code - your code will not work correctly if you give it numbers 1234 and 4321
2018-06-16T10:54:50Z shangul: phoe, that's a lot, yet
2018-06-16T10:55:23Z phoe: much more readable than https://apaste.info/7HeB though
2018-06-16T10:55:41Z shangul: phoe, they are 4 digits, 1234 and 4321
2018-06-16T10:57:06Z pjb: Well, users tend to come later and ask for bigger limits.  So you shouldn't put artificial limits in your code, if you want to avoid irritation.
2018-06-16T10:57:33Z shangul: pjb, the problem said they should be 3 digits max
2018-06-16T10:57:45Z pjb: shangul: this is ensure by ask-number.
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2018-06-16T10:57:47Z pjb: ensured
2018-06-16T10:59:17Z pjb: Sorry, there's a typo in reverse-number, it should be: https://apaste.info/Ecli  was missing the argument to decimal-representation-length
2018-06-16T11:00:20Z shangul: my solution is much shorter...
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2018-06-16T11:01:36Z White_Flame: and less readable, less architected, and thus less maintainable/refactorable
2018-06-16T11:01:49Z pjb: and perhaps buggy.
2018-06-16T11:01:53Z pjb: so less reliable.
2018-06-16T11:01:57Z White_Flame: that sort of style is fine for banging out quick & dirty utilities for one-off use or prototypes
2018-06-16T11:02:01Z pjb: (you didn't write tests, or proofs).
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2018-06-16T11:02:31Z White_Flame: but as far as code that you're going to keep goes, that's going to be an opaque blob if you come back a month or two later and need to rework something
2018-06-16T11:02:49Z pjb: Now, the funny thing with that exercise, is that it cannot be so easily implemented in C on a 32-bit machine :-)
2018-06-16T11:03:00Z pjb: (integer-length (expt 999999 2)) #| --> 40 |#  ;-)
2018-06-16T11:03:15Z shangul: what was my last message?
2018-06-16T11:03:27Z pjb: <shangul> my solution is much shorter...
2018-06-16T11:03:46Z pjb: shangul: have a look at: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/
2018-06-16T11:03:47Z White_Flame: and less readable, less architected, and thus less maintainable/refactorable
2018-06-16T11:03:51Z White_Flame: that sort of style is fine for banging out quick & dirty utilities for one-off use or prototypes
2018-06-16T11:03:52Z White_Flame: but as far as code that you're going to keep goes, that's going to be an opaque blob if you come back a month or two later and need to rework something
2018-06-16T11:04:00Z White_Flame: </my responses>
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2018-06-16T11:07:55Z shangul: perhaps you are right. But I've red a part of PCL and wrote that code and another one a little longer than that. I'll get frustrated if I go like this.
2018-06-16T11:07:58Z shangul: pjb, ^
2018-06-16T11:08:41Z pjb: shangul: it's not slower to implement.
2018-06-16T11:08:48Z White_Flame: it's the difference between learning lisp, and learning idiomatic lisp
2018-06-16T11:09:00Z White_Flame: and the difference between writing software and playing code golf
2018-06-16T11:09:20Z White_Flame: code golf is fine when you're learning and fiddling with how to call certain standard functions
2018-06-16T11:09:24Z shangul: well I can't play code golf before I write software
2018-06-16T11:09:37Z pjb: shangul: for example, you use read-line to read the numbers.  Fine.  But users are know to add spaces before or after their inputs! So at least you should use string-trim to remove those spaces.
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2018-06-16T11:09:52Z kuribas: does CL have let-rec?
2018-06-16T11:09:57Z White_Flame: but as I was talking above in comparison to haskell, Lisp tends to be a bit verbose in the micro-issues, but becomes much more compact for larger projects
2018-06-16T11:10:03Z pjb: kuribas: it's called labels
2018-06-16T11:10:10Z kuribas: pjb: ah, cool
2018-06-16T11:10:28Z White_Flame: it doesn't hyper-optimize on the line-by-line syntactic issues, but rather allows you to build abstractions well, which makes difficult problems much easier to tackle
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2018-06-16T11:11:27Z shangul: perhaps I'm in the wrong position and I should first study all the PCL?
2018-06-16T11:12:31Z White_Flame: just keep learning
2018-06-16T11:12:48Z kuribas: White_Flame: eh, I find haskell pretty compact for large projects.
2018-06-16T11:12:54Z White_Flame: if something doesn't make sense to you yet (like why people whould make all thse named defuns for everything), then just keep going with other things first
2018-06-16T11:12:56Z shangul: in pjb's way? I'll get frustrated. I should work in smaller pieces I think
2018-06-16T11:13:00Z kuribas: White_Flame: it's not so great for golfing because you need all the imports.
2018-06-16T11:13:09Z kuribas: And type signatures
2018-06-16T11:13:59Z shangul: pjb, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just saying 100 lines for a one week beginner is too much
2018-06-16T11:15:18Z White_Flame: well, you did ask about idiomatic style, after all ;)
2018-06-16T11:16:03Z White_Flame: the thing is, the complexity is not high there.  You just have to get more comfortable with the language (like any language) to be able to skim & read it well, instead of seeing it as a big impenetrable wall
2018-06-16T11:19:20Z shangul: what should I do now?
2018-06-16T11:19:47Z shangul: pjb, phoe, I was afraid of this. that you write 100 lines for me and I waste your time by not using it
2018-06-16T11:19:50Z White_Flame: just keep learning, keep going through PCL or whateve you're using
2018-06-16T11:20:22Z White_Flame: at some point in the near future you'll look back to this problem and say "oh, duh"
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2018-06-16T11:21:47Z shangul: okay...
2018-06-16T11:21:58Z shangul: pjb, I'm again sorry for wasting your time
2018-06-16T11:22:34Z pjb: shangul: granted, there are two different phases. When you're just learning the language, you write small expressions just to exercise the operators you're learning. In that case, you're essentially writting tests for the language operators :-)
2018-06-16T11:23:27Z pjb: shangul: but if you present a small problem statement, like a school exercise, I would grade differently the two kinds of solution.
2018-06-16T11:24:23Z kuribas: there is nothing in Python that CL hasn't done many years before, right?
2018-06-16T11:24:30Z kuribas: I don't get the appeal of Python.
2018-06-16T11:25:03Z beach: kuribas: There is still a lot of stuff missing in free Common Lisp software.
2018-06-16T11:25:07Z pjb: In the first phase, you are analysing and studying the  details of each operators. In the second phase, you are synthesizing small programs, demonstrating your understanding on how the individual language elements can be combined to implement a solution.  This is more like real programming.
2018-06-16T11:25:19Z pjb: kuribas: indeed.
2018-06-16T11:25:21Z kuribas: beach: yeah sure.  Python has great libraries.
2018-06-16T11:25:52Z beach: kuribas: Here are some ideas for you: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2018-06-16T11:25:54Z pjb: kuribas: this is wrong; those great libraries are usually implemented in C or C++ and they are just used from python. you can use them as well fromCL.
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2018-06-16T11:26:07Z kuribas: pjb: true
2018-06-16T11:26:26Z kuribas: pjb: but it's convenient not to have to deal with the FFI
2018-06-16T11:26:45Z pjb: we also have a lot of libraries in CL using FFI to interface with external libraries.
2018-06-16T11:26:54Z shangul: pjb, I think I'm in the first phase, yet.
2018-06-16T11:26:59Z pjb: shangul: ok.
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2018-06-16T11:40:56Z kuribas: beach: funny I was already starting a project for improving printed music scores.
2018-06-16T11:41:09Z kuribas: beach: in haskell and C
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2018-06-16T11:41:47Z White_Flame: kuribas: the appeal of Python is that it makes the easy easy.  There's a lot of simple tools at hand, and low barrier to entry for the syntax
2018-06-16T11:42:33Z kuribas: White_Flame: I suppose also that it has easy answers to most problems.  Unfortunately those aren't always the best.
2018-06-16T11:42:38Z kuribas: sometimes even the worst.
2018-06-16T11:43:03Z White_Flame: sure, but it keeps a lot of newbies, which then take the language beyond where it really is comfortable going
2018-06-16T11:43:42Z beach: kuribas: Interesting.
2018-06-16T11:43:56Z kuribas: And then they get into problems because of the backwards way of doing things in Python.
2018-06-16T11:44:13Z beach: kuribas: Why the mixture between Haskell and C?
2018-06-16T11:44:41Z kuribas: beach: I used C libraries for triangulation.
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2018-06-16T11:45:56Z kuribas: beach: my idea was to use triangulation to find an optimal segmentation.
2018-06-16T11:46:17Z beach: OK.
2018-06-16T11:46:18Z kuribas: beach: it is a lot of work to find good heuristics.
2018-06-16T11:47:07Z beach: I can imagine.
2018-06-16T11:47:45Z kuribas: I didn't want to use a training set.
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2018-06-16T14:20:13Z jmercouris: So I was reading a bunch of the response to my article on reddit about eco-programming
2018-06-16T14:20:25Z jmercouris: and one of the users claimed that lists in lisp HAVE to be inefficient
2018-06-16T14:20:30Z jmercouris: let me copy and paste what they wrote
2018-06-16T14:20:46Z jmercouris: "An interesting example of an inefficient part of a language would be LISP's 'list' structure - compared to say C++'s vector. Vector is specified to be a single contiguous block of memory - allowing for efficient pointer arithmetic lookup."
2018-06-16T14:20:54Z jmercouris: "Although theoretically you can store your cons-list thing in a contiguous memory block; you can't do the same pointer arithmetic to give you the nth cell (unless you make a non conforming LISP with the guarantee attached)."
2018-06-16T14:21:24Z jmercouris: Now, I am thinking I am pretty sure it is possible to make the pointer arithmetic hold true AND have a conforming lisp by layering some abstraction on top
2018-06-16T14:21:39Z jmercouris: as an implementation specific extension of sorts
2018-06-16T14:21:41Z beach: jmercouris: Common Lisp has vectors as well.
2018-06-16T14:22:06Z jmercouris: beach: to put things into context, the discussion was, can one design a language such that the implementation HAS to be inefficient
2018-06-16T14:22:29Z jmercouris: my answer was, I don't believe so, the implementation can always make something implementation as long as it fulfills the grammar syntax, and built-inrequirements of the language
2018-06-16T14:22:33Z beach: jmercouris: That is so not the right way to think about it.
2018-06-16T14:23:04Z jmercouris: beach: here's the sub-thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8r9ngc/the_ecoprogrammers_dilemma_use_electron_or_save/e0rn7kq/?context=3
2018-06-16T14:23:17Z beach: jmercouris: Vectors are faster for random access, but list are more flexible in that they can grow and shrink easily.  They can also share elements between several lists.
2018-06-16T14:23:30Z jmercouris: I would use a vector if I had this idea
2018-06-16T14:23:39Z jmercouris: but the question is rather, can one design a language such that the implementation *MUST* be slow
2018-06-16T14:23:47Z jmercouris: slow/inefficient in terms of O(n) time
2018-06-16T14:24:28Z beach: What is n here, and what part of the language does it?
2018-06-16T14:24:42Z beach: Is it specifically for lookups in sequences?
2018-06-16T14:24:43Z jmercouris: n here being all of the operations for a given program
2018-06-16T14:24:50Z jmercouris: e.g. if we have a program that counts 10 numbers
2018-06-16T14:24:54Z beach: That makes absolutely no sense.
2018-06-16T14:24:55Z Bike: that's kind of nonsensical
2018-06-16T14:25:06Z Bike: but if you want a language that can't be fast maybe try malbolge
2018-06-16T14:25:09Z jmercouris: is it possible to design a language specification such that the counting of the numbers would take longer in language A then language B
2018-06-16T14:25:11Z Bike: off topic though
2018-06-16T14:25:33Z jmercouris: given that the implementation is free to implement the language however they so choose
2018-06-16T14:26:19Z jmercouris: I don't have the vocabulary to express what I'm trying to ask
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2018-06-16T14:26:31Z beach: I suppose you can specify in your language definition that numbers have to use Church encoding.
2018-06-16T14:27:09Z beach: But yeah, nonsensical and off topic.
2018-06-16T14:27:26Z jmercouris: who is nonsenical? I or they? or both?
2018-06-16T14:27:29Z Bike: you
2018-06-16T14:27:40Z Bike: "n here being all of the operations for a given program", specifically
2018-06-16T14:27:50Z beach: I totally agree with Bike.
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2018-06-16T14:27:58Z jmercouris: I was trying to say something else, but anyways
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2018-06-16T14:29:12Z beach: jmercouris: What *is* true is that Common Lisp lists pretty much have to have O(n) lookup complexity.  But comparing them to vectors is really dumb too, because vectors are bad with other things.
2018-06-16T14:29:43Z Bike: old lisp implementations did cdr coding so there were O(1) lists, but it's kind of silly
2018-06-16T14:29:46Z beach: jmercouris: Try adding a new element to the front of a vector.  That's an O(n) operation, where n is the length of the vector.
2018-06-16T14:30:05Z Bike: and on the flipside, just being able to get pointers into a vector doesn't actually mean they're contiguous, or that access is O(1)
2018-06-16T14:30:17Z beach: jmercouris: So vectors and lists are two different data structures that are good for different use cases.
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2018-06-16T14:30:30Z Bike: c.f. whatever latest article about how turing is wrong because cpu caches exist, or whatever
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2018-06-16T14:31:57Z jmercouris: beach: yes, but couldn't one had a vector with the addresses to each element in the list?
2018-06-16T14:32:02Z jmercouris: as a sort of "look up table"
2018-06-16T14:32:08Z jmercouris: I believe java has arraylist which is something like that
2018-06-16T14:32:20Z jmercouris: s/had/have
2018-06-16T14:32:29Z Bike: i am... pretty sure that's not how an arraylist works.
2018-06-16T14:32:39Z beach: jmercouris: So how do you implement CONS with that representation?
2018-06-16T14:32:43Z Bike: that just sounds very complicated.
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2018-06-16T14:33:00Z jmercouris: Here's what you'd have to do, you'd have to shuffle all sorts of elements around whenever you cons something
2018-06-16T14:33:11Z jmercouris: depending on whether you need to allocate a new array to grow it, or insert something in the middle etc
2018-06-16T14:33:19Z beach: jmercouris: You would have to re-allocate a new vector which is O(n).
2018-06-16T14:33:32Z jmercouris: you'd lose a lot of those characteristics, BUT, you would have the very fast look up time
2018-06-16T14:33:34Z Bike: well, that's what beach said earlier- you're losing the "can grow and shrink easily" property
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2018-06-16T14:33:37Z jmercouris: and, you would have this on a list
2018-06-16T14:33:47Z Bike: so there's not much point
2018-06-16T14:33:50Z beach: jmercouris: If you want fast lookup time, use a vector.
2018-06-16T14:33:57Z jmercouris: there is a point to this data structure
2018-06-16T14:34:06Z jmercouris: as long as you are adding and removing from the end of the list, it should be fine
2018-06-16T14:34:16Z beach: Oh yeah?  How so?
2018-06-16T14:34:16Z jmercouris: and as long as you have enough padding before and after in your array
2018-06-16T14:34:27Z jmercouris: what is the point to the data structure, or what exactly?
2018-06-16T14:34:32Z beach: jmercouris: At some point, you run out of space, and you must reallocate.
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2018-06-16T14:34:51Z beach: ... which is O(n) like I said.
2018-06-16T14:34:54Z jmercouris: yes, of course, but if you pad enough, it could result in very fast look up times, and some other interesting properties
2018-06-16T14:34:57Z Bike: it's just a resizable vector, which is a nice structure, but has different characteristics from a list
2018-06-16T14:35:16Z beach: This discussion is really silly.  I'll stop now.
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2018-06-16T14:38:00Z Bike: i mean, lisp has this already, you make an adjustable vector and vector-push-extend it
2018-06-16T14:38:04Z Bike: but it's not a replacement for linked lists
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2018-06-16T14:54:15Z pjb: jmercouris: Of course there are comparisons of lists vs. vectors, eg. by Stroustrup in C++, but: 1- the author is obviously biazed, 2- it depends on the hardware (notably caching), 3- it's rather unrelated to global performance, which depends more on other language design factors.  For example, C const is used so inconsistently, that you often have to copy a const char* string to pass it to a char* parameter, even if most of the t
2018-06-16T14:54:15Z pjb: it won't be mutated.  It's even worse in C++, where a lot of copying is done or has to be done when in lisp you would just pass a reference.
2018-06-16T14:56:25Z pjb: jmercouris: notice notably how passing a reference to a mutable or an immutable object in lisp doesn't depend on compilation time declarations, but on run-time check.  Therefore if the actual processing doesn't try to mutate the object, when an immutable one is passed, it will work perfectly good. It's all win, programmer time, compiler time, run-time.  At the minimal cost of a small dispatch or check at run-time.  On the other ha
2018-06-16T14:56:25Z pjb: equivalent would require a big cost in programmer time, compiler time (compiling lots of generics variants or templates), AND still at run-time in copying things everywhere.
2018-06-16T14:56:40Z pjb: So you can always set up micro-benchmark.
2018-06-16T14:59:37Z jmercouris: I guess there are indeed many assumptions, and lots of external factors not considered within this argumentation
2018-06-16T15:00:06Z jmercouris: a complete analysis would probably be too much work and effort for the sake of replying to a comment on reddit
2018-06-16T15:00:10Z pjb: For example, there's the famous argv thing.  In programs, usually it's treated as an immutable vector of immutable strings.  However, some programs want to overwrite some of the argument strings (eg. passwords).  The actual effect is implementation dependent (eg. whether this has consequences on how ps(1) reports the command). Nonetheless, in programming languages as C or C++, there's no easy way to denote that you won't mutate an
2018-06-16T15:00:10Z pjb: in general, but sometimes you will stil mutate it.  In lisp, if the string are mutable then they're mutable, and if not, then they're not, and it's a run-time check.
2018-06-16T15:01:04Z pjb: Basically, what I mean is that C and C++ programmers and language designers don't have the means of what they aim at.
2018-06-16T15:01:27Z pjb: (and that's the reason why people like Linus use C, and hate C++).
2018-06-16T15:02:23Z pjb: If you understand lists in lisp, then all your accesses to list elements will always be O(1).
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2018-06-16T15:54:46Z loke: Hello #Lisp
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2018-06-16T15:55:07Z loke: For anyone who hasn't followed by work on #clim, here's a demo:
2018-06-16T15:55:11Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvC82EjoPYU
2018-06-16T15:55:16Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VIT_Ml2v-Q
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2018-06-16T16:00:29Z beach: loke: Beautiful!
2018-06-16T16:01:05Z loke: I've just added rendering of subscripts as well :-)
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2018-06-16T16:02:48Z loke: beach: I really need solve the problem of scrolling with double buffering
2018-06-16T16:03:10Z beach: Did you try the macro?
2018-06-16T16:03:13Z loke: Scrolling in the climaxima windows looks horrible, and in the videos you get a taste of that
2018-06-16T16:03:21Z beach: I see, yes.
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2018-06-16T16:10:54Z loke: beach: I was looking at the WITH-DOUBLE-BUFFERING macro, and tried to use it in the simplest possible way when scrolling.
2018-06-16T16:11:09Z loke: Something did happen (I got lots of garbage on the screen, and _some_ of the content moved)
2018-06-16T16:11:27Z beach: Hmm, not good.
2018-06-16T16:11:40Z loke: beach: Do you know how that thing works? It clearly wors in some cases (like the cube game in demodemo)
2018-06-16T16:11:54Z beach: Not by heart, no.
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2018-06-16T16:24:09Z loke: beach: My other conundrum is related to keyboard control
2018-06-16T16:24:29Z phoe: loke: to Reddit with this!
2018-06-16T16:24:34Z loke: beach: I really want to add keybaord control to MENU-CHOOSE
2018-06-16T16:24:44Z loke: phoe: You're welcome to share.
2018-06-16T16:24:58Z loke: phoe: I was going to make a more thorough video about it when it's more ready
2018-06-16T16:25:18Z loke: But I have no idea when I have time to do that
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2018-06-16T16:28:07Z phoe: loke: done
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2018-06-16T16:32:41Z loke: There. I created a playlist
2018-06-16T16:32:41Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6AQVVynH5Dg3Wwpk3zNT962GntKfssje
2018-06-16T16:32:48Z loke: I'll add future videos to the same playlist.
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2018-06-16T17:26:43Z White_Flame: hmm, there's no way to setf array-displacement to slide a window over another array?
2018-06-16T17:27:01Z White_Flame: specifically, to get a sliding substring
2018-06-16T17:27:57Z White_Flame: just figuring out a nice fast clean way of doing hex string -> unsigned-byte 8 vector conversion
2018-06-16T17:30:34Z Bike: you'd have to adjust-array
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2018-06-16T17:31:56Z White_Flame: ah, there it is.  I rarely use these
2018-06-16T17:32:15Z White_Flame: might be a good non-consing-in-the-loop way of doing this
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2018-06-16T17:33:52Z asarch: I already have this: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577685
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2018-06-16T17:35:54Z aeth: White_Flame: Depending on how long the range is, you might also just want to return multiple values and write a simple macro on top of that to (values (aref ,a ,i) (aref ,a ,(1+ i)) (aref ,a ,(+ 2 i)) ...)
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2018-06-16T17:36:31Z aeth: For a low number (3-5 maybe?) you'd probably produce faster code, at the cost of not having sequence functions available for your range.
2018-06-16T17:36:43Z White_Flame: no, these are large dumps
2018-06-16T17:36:48Z aeth: ah, okay
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2018-06-16T17:39:21Z beach: asarch: Why are you installing McCLIM using apt?
2018-06-16T17:39:34Z beach: asarch: You should be using Quicklisp.
2018-06-16T17:40:59Z aeth: Lisp libraries in your distribution's package manager are for full applications using Lisp that your distribution happens to ship, such as Maxima.
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2018-06-16T17:43:36Z White_Flame: ...and a 2-character displaced string window sliding across a long input string works.  Nifty
2018-06-16T17:46:18Z aeth: White_Flame: Oh, 2 characters? I meant something like this (and only the setter needs to be a macro, actually): (declaim (inline two-aref)) (defun two-aref (a i) (values (aref a i) (aref a (1+ i))))
2018-06-16T17:46:24Z aeth: (two-aref "Hello, world!" 7) => (values #\w #\o)
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2018-06-16T17:46:59Z aeth: Depending on how you're parsing it, that may be better or worse
2018-06-16T17:47:11Z White_Flame: well, I'm a complete idiot.  PARSE-INTEGER takes a start & end :-P
2018-06-16T17:47:29Z aeth: oh
2018-06-16T17:48:00Z aeth: Yeah, :start and :end should be on every sequence operation, built-in and library-added, exactly so you don't need this sort of thing.
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2018-06-16T17:53:27Z asarch: If I do: (clim-demo:demodemo) I get: no non-whitespace characters in string "".
2018-06-16T17:53:39Z asarch: What is that? Full log: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577686
2018-06-16T17:53:42Z phoe: asarch: where do you have your clim from?
2018-06-16T17:53:49Z asarch: From quicklisp
2018-06-16T17:53:59Z phoe: hm
2018-06-16T17:54:09Z asarch: I used to have Debian native packages installed but I remove them
2018-06-16T17:54:27Z asarch: beach, my mistake :-(
2018-06-16T17:54:43Z asarch: This was the installed package: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577685
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2018-06-16T17:57:31Z White_Flame: hmm, my ffi union between a double-float and a long doesn't match the byte-endianness of doing the same in Javascript's byte buffers.  fun
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2018-06-16T18:15:07Z asarch: Where could I find this function? "The function ASDF/INTERFACE::OPERATION-FORCED is undefined."
2018-06-16T18:15:30Z asarch: I mean, what is the name of the package for it?
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2018-06-16T18:21:50Z Bike: asdf/interface
2018-06-16T18:22:12Z Bike: which is part of asdf, of c ourse
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2018-06-16T18:26:11Z asarch: Thank you :-)
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2018-06-16T18:27:59Z asarch: Ok, doing a (ql:system-apropos "asdf") there is no asdf/interface package
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2018-06-16T18:28:22Z asarch: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577687
2018-06-16T18:28:29Z asarch: There are only those
2018-06-16T18:29:00Z Bike: maybe you have a version problem
2018-06-16T18:30:31Z asarch: Since Debian's native SBCL cannot use McCLIM from QuickLisp, I downloaded this sbcl-1.4.8-x86-64-linux to use
2018-06-16T18:31:53Z Bike: that's quite recent
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2018-06-16T18:32:35Z Bike: current asdf has asdf/interface though https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/b6d2f9b44c047a5e65520692159cab7d3e9e072e/interface.lisp
2018-06-16T18:32:53Z Bike: er... yeah it's in master too. dunno why it went with some random commit
2018-06-16T18:33:29Z asarch: It seem that I have to uninstall everything: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577688
2018-06-16T18:34:18Z Bike: oh, yeah. debian's asdf is old
2018-06-16T18:34:20Z Bike: or something
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2018-06-16T18:43:34Z pjb: White_Flame: have a look at com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.array:nudge-displaced-vector
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2018-06-16T18:47:26Z shka_: how can i wait for all tasks submitted with submit-task to finish?
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2018-06-16T18:52:26Z pjb: (apropos "submit-task") -> ; No value
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2018-06-16T18:53:31Z shka_: lparallel
2018-06-16T18:53:37Z shka_: anyway, does not matter
2018-06-16T18:53:46Z shka_: this simply cannot be done by design
2018-06-16T18:55:42Z pjb: How do you get the results?
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2018-06-16T19:06:50Z asarch: http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
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2018-06-16T19:19:10Z White_Flame: shka_: smells like its notion of channels would have something to do with it
2018-06-16T19:19:24Z shka_: White_Flame: exactly
2018-06-16T19:20:21Z White_Flame: the notion tends to be called a barrier, when you're waiting on N things to complete
2018-06-16T19:20:27Z asarch: One stupid question: what's the problem with CLisp (the implementation)? What's wrong with it? Why SBCL over it?
2018-06-16T19:21:15Z pjb: nothing wrong with clisp.
2018-06-16T19:21:21Z pjb: This is the implement I use for my scripts.
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2018-06-16T19:21:38Z aeth: asarch: CLISP is an interpreted Lisp that isn't dead (it's still under development) but is a zombie (it hasn't had a new release in 5-7 years, not sure when)
2018-06-16T19:22:01Z aeth: asarch: SBCL is the fastest ahead-of-time compiled Lisp, with very frequent releases, and the most helpful warnings/errors (most of the time).
2018-06-16T19:22:04Z pjb: It's not a zombie: it's a stable implementation, that doesn't break your programs every month!
2018-06-16T19:22:15Z White_Flame: because it's a byte-coded interpreter, clisp is very compatible to run on new platforms
2018-06-16T19:22:32Z pjb: But if you want changes, you can always get the HEAD of the git repo, and have fun, eg. with clearvir being integrated into clisp.
2018-06-16T19:23:11Z asarch takes notes...
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2018-06-16T19:23:25Z aeth: Does CLISP have a larger fixnum and specialized arrays for :element-type single-float and double-float, yet?
2018-06-16T19:23:27Z asarch: Oh, I thought it was a sin to use CLisp here
2018-06-16T19:23:35Z aeth: CLISP is the odd implementation out in a lot of waves.
2018-06-16T19:23:37Z aeth: *ways
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2018-06-16T19:25:12Z edgar-rft: clisp is newbie-friendly because it has a good command-line REPL. Newbies don't need to learn Emacs first. In the long run of course it pays off to learn Emacs, too.
2018-06-16T19:25:33Z aeth: If you even have to think about performance at all, you can support SBCL and CCL, and basically cannot support CLISP. If performance is not an issue, use whatever.
2018-06-16T19:25:46Z aeth: If you want to use SBCL from the command line, use rlwrap
2018-06-16T19:26:05Z pjb: Well again about performance, it depends on what and how.  For scripts, clisp is faster.
2018-06-16T19:26:29Z pjb: it loads faster (begin much smaller), and it starts to run the script earlier, so for short-running scripts, it will also end earlier.
2018-06-16T19:26:31Z White_Flame: where does ECL fit in the performance spectrum?
2018-06-16T19:26:46Z aeth: ECL is hard
2018-06-16T19:27:01Z pjb: Not really.
2018-06-16T19:27:19Z pjb: ecl is the most integrated into unix, since it compiles by generating C code compiled with an external compiler (gcc).
2018-06-16T19:27:28Z pjb: Notably, ecl is not "image based", but elf files based.
2018-06-16T19:27:32Z aeth: I mean it's hard to figure out the performance of ECL
2018-06-16T19:27:42Z pjb: Load time doesn't occur at the same time in ecl. for this reason.
2018-06-16T19:27:52Z aeth: You'd probably have to use C profiling tools on ECL
2018-06-16T19:28:13Z edgar-rft: compiler-based CL implementations tend to choke with every little typo. Using CLisp turned out to be much friendlier with my idiotic mistakes.
2018-06-16T19:28:16Z pjb: Also, ecl is delivered as libecl.so, so you can use it in your other (C) programs.
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2018-06-16T19:30:19Z Xof: pjb: I don't believe that clisp's startup is faster than sbcl's.  It wasn't the last time I measured
2018-06-16T19:30:35Z Xof: (at least not once sbcl's image is in the disk cache)
2018-06-16T19:30:48Z pjb: Perhaps it has changed. New benchmarks would be in order… mine were a long time ago too.
2018-06-16T19:30:51Z White_Flame: with "startup" including loading the target source code/script?
2018-06-16T19:31:10Z pjb: just: time sbcl --eval '(quit)'
2018-06-16T19:31:17Z pjb: just: time sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(quit)'
2018-06-16T19:32:25Z aeth: If you really want to cheat, just have your script use the SBCL image that's already running to power your stumpwm. Via swank or something.
2018-06-16T19:32:40Z edgar-rft: how long will be the startup time from a datasette?
2018-06-16T19:32:44Z random-nick: is there a way to tell slime to abort evaluation?
2018-06-16T19:32:50Z pjb: On mac, clisp uses half the time than sbcl.
2018-06-16T19:33:17Z edgar-rft: random-nick: I usually try C-c C-c
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2018-06-16T19:33:47Z edgar-rft: or C-c C-c C-c C-c .... if two aren't enough
2018-06-16T19:33:56Z Xof: pjb: on my laptop, sbcl executes hello world in 0.015s ± 0.003s
2018-06-16T19:34:18Z random-nick: edgar-rft: this wasn't in a repl buffer, it was a C-x C-e
2018-06-16T19:34:19Z Xof: clisp in 0.023 ± 0.007s
2018-06-16T19:34:21Z Xof: ymmv
2018-06-16T19:34:37Z asarch: Thank you guys
2018-06-16T19:34:42Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2018-06-16T19:34:48Z asarch: See you later :-)
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2018-06-16T19:34:55Z aeth: pjb: What's the CLISP equivalent of your command? Because I get sbcl --no-userinit --eval '(quit)'  0.00s user 0.00s system 87% cpu 0.008 total
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2018-06-16T19:35:23Z aeth: Xof: You're using the standard deviation of the mean there, right?
2018-06-16T19:36:52Z aeth: pjb: SBCL might run fast for me because it's always running, assuming a different SBCL in memory would have an impact on a new one spawning
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2018-06-16T19:37:17Z aeth: In fact, more often than not, there are two SBCLs running, one for stumpwm and one in emacs+slime.
2018-06-16T19:37:41Z aeth: I basically only close Emacs when I'm gaming.
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2018-06-16T19:38:46Z shka_: White_Flame: yes, i really wanted a barrier here
2018-06-16T19:38:50Z White_Flame: Xof: it would be interesting to do that with a script of some dozens of lines of defuns, with a (quit) at the end
2018-06-16T19:39:24Z shka_: but nothing like that in lparallel
2018-06-16T19:39:42Z shka_: ended up by making queue and spamming futures into it
2018-06-16T19:40:01Z White_Flame: well, there are the plain parallel funcalls and such, which I presume would block until all finish.  But if you're launching things at arbitrary times, not all at once, then yeah it's more management
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2018-06-16T19:41:08Z shka_: it is kinda annoying, because i write this kind of stuff quite a lot
2018-06-16T19:41:27Z shka_: essentially tree expansion in parallel
2018-06-16T19:41:51Z shka_: i should write macro akin do defpun for that
2018-06-16T19:42:04Z Xof: aeth: yes, though I didn't really run it enough times and I did the stats in my head
2018-06-16T19:42:13Z aeth: Xof: We can't conclude anything then
2018-06-16T19:42:21Z aeth: Do the error propagation of the ratio of CLISP/SBCL
2018-06-16T19:42:38Z Xof: we can conclude all sorts of things, depending on our priors
2018-06-16T19:43:08Z pjb: The point is that all implementations have their strong points and their weakness. Use all of them!
2018-06-16T19:43:18Z pjb: Write strictly conforming code!
2018-06-16T19:43:25Z shka_: maybe not… all
2018-06-16T19:43:26Z aeth: Xof: I'm getting $1.5 \pm 0.6$ for the ratio of CLISP over SBCL
2018-06-16T19:43:28Z shka_: :P
2018-06-16T19:43:30Z aeth: The error seems pretty high
2018-06-16T19:43:36Z aeth: More samples, I guess?
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2018-06-16T19:44:38Z Xof: told you
2018-06-16T19:45:00Z Xof: but in any case, that evidence is consistent with my prior that clisp startup is twice as slow as sbcl
2018-06-16T19:45:03Z Xof: vindication!
2018-06-16T19:45:25Z Xof: max likelihood is now around 1.75
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2018-06-16T19:48:26Z aeth: 1.75x as slow? Sounds about right.
2018-06-16T19:48:38Z aeth: s/as slow/as fast/
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2018-06-16T19:49:09Z aeth: pjb: Are you using the git version or the release version of CLISP?
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2018-06-16T19:56:45Z pjb: git; I compile it myself.
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2018-06-16T20:00:11Z Ukari: multiple value and defstruct, which is better for return result in the form of {a, [...b]}?
2018-06-16T20:01:40Z Bike: multiple values are good when you're doing nothing with the results but getting them
2018-06-16T20:01:44Z Bike: not storing them or anything
2018-06-16T20:01:46Z phoe: Ukari: oh gods
2018-06-16T20:01:54Z phoe: for a moment I read "multiple-value-defstruct"
2018-06-16T20:02:00Z phoe: and I was like "what in the holy hell"
2018-06-16T20:02:43Z White_Flame: you have 2 return values, one always given and the 2nd one being a list?
2018-06-16T20:04:27Z White_Flame: I don't quite know what the braces & brackets are supposed to imply
2018-06-16T20:04:33Z Ukari: White_Flame, yes
2018-06-16T20:04:42Z Ukari: treat is as a json
2018-06-16T20:04:46Z Ukari: treat it
2018-06-16T20:04:58Z White_Flame: json braces denote an object with "key":val
2018-06-16T20:05:14Z Ukari: a json object in javascript es6
2018-06-16T20:05:49Z White_Flame: well, in taht case, the 2 values are unordered in that representation ;)
2018-06-16T20:06:25Z White_Flame: the tradeoff with just 2 values is a small allocation + having to use slot accessors in the caller; vs the verbosity of multiple-value-bind
2018-06-16T20:06:32Z White_Flame: using m-v-b makes a lot of sense
2018-06-16T20:07:55Z Ukari: the 2nd list is actually play the same role as a multiple return values
2018-06-16T20:08:16Z White_Flame: not in this form it doesn't
2018-06-16T20:08:20Z White_Flame: it's a composite
2018-06-16T20:08:33Z White_Flame: unless you actually meant returning [....]
2018-06-16T20:08:47Z White_Flame: because what's the difference with 'a' being b[0] or its own value?
2018-06-16T20:09:56Z White_Flame: btw, fiddling around with SBCL disassemblies, it looks like it fits up to 3 return values in registers before spilling to the stack
2018-06-16T20:10:06Z White_Flame: (x86-64)
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2018-06-16T20:55:40Z drmeister: Does anyone know what this means?
2018-06-16T20:55:41Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/xBIN5gPg/
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2018-06-16T20:56:21Z drmeister: The ASDF version that ships with Clasp is 3.3.1.2 - is quicklisp getting some other version of ASDF?
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2018-06-16T20:56:43Z drmeister: I feel like I've seen this before and fixed it and now it's back again - but it's been at least a year.
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2018-06-16T21:02:08Z nirved: maybe the older version is loaded from the initfile
2018-06-16T21:03:49Z drmeister: It happens when I build cando within a docker image - maybe I'm cloning another ASDF in the Dockerfile.
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2018-06-16T21:08:56Z k-stz: I just updated to emacs26.1+slime2.0 and it freezes for a short time everytime I type in an argument to a function at the repl. It does so for every character
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2018-06-16T21:16:26Z attila_lendvai: k-stz: IIRC you may need to run with slime HEAD
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2018-06-16T21:17:42Z k-stz: just found a thread on reddit with exactly the same problem: https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/8nyl9w/errors_in_sbcl_slime_repl/
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2018-06-16T21:17:47Z k-stz: attila_lendvai: ok, thanks
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2018-06-16T21:41:00Z msmith: so I'm trying to read utf-8 bytes from a file for testing purposes. For some reason, when I read-byte I'm not getting what I expect.  here is the paste https://pastebin.com/9rySSXTK
2018-06-16T21:41:15Z msmith: anyone have an idea why?
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2018-06-16T21:47:11Z Bike: maybe that's what's in the file. i mean, how would we know
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2018-06-16T21:48:06Z msmith: Bike: well the file is large so I posted the first six bytes in the paste
2018-06-16T21:48:18Z msmith: but its just the bytes
2018-06-16T21:48:28Z pjb: msmith: od -t x1 test/inputs.txt
2018-06-16T21:48:46Z pjb: msmith: now, bytes are bytes. There's no such thing as utf-8 bytes.
2018-06-16T21:49:00Z pjb: Using an :external-format on a binary file is basically meaningless.
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2018-06-16T21:49:07Z Bike: oh. yeah there's that.
2018-06-16T21:49:21Z pjb: Theorically, an implementation could have different binary file formats, but in practice, not on posix systems.
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2018-06-16T21:49:37Z Bike: the external format tells lisp how to convert bytes into characters. you're not having it do that, so, pointless.
2018-06-16T21:50:23Z pjb: msmith: a file containing text encoded in utf-8 won't contain any null byte.  Your file, starting with 129 0 0 0 126, assuming those are the values of the 6 first bytes, is not an utf-8 encoded file.
2018-06-16T21:51:09Z pjb: msmith: on the other hand, if your file starts with the string "129 0 0 0 126", then the bytes are actually: (map 'list 'char-code "129 0 0 0 126") #| --> (49 50 57 32 48 32 48 32 48 32 49 50 54) |#  and this INDEED starts with the byte 49 which is the ASCII or utf-8 code for #\1 !!!
2018-06-16T21:51:36Z Bike: wow, i... hope that's not the problem.
2018-06-16T21:51:56Z pjb: So if your file is a TEXT file containing integers representing the values of octets, you must read it as a text file, and use READ to parse those integers.
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2018-06-16T21:52:04Z pjb: Bike: it looks obvious that is the problem :-)
2018-06-16T21:52:22Z msmith: yeah, that is the problem thanks
2018-06-16T21:52:27Z Bike: aghj
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2018-06-16T21:52:52Z msmith: not shame here. that's what this  community is for. I would think
2018-06-16T21:52:59Z msmith: no shame
2018-06-16T21:53:07Z pjb: (with-open-file (s p :direction :input :element-type 'character :external-format #+sbcl '(:utf-8 :replacement #\?) #-sbcl :default) (loop for byte = (read s nil nil) while byte collect byte))
2018-06-16T21:53:18Z msmith: anyway thanks that helps
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2018-06-16T21:53:59Z pjb: msmith: you may want to have a look at: https://www.cliki.net/CloserLookAtCharacters  and I might write someday a similar page about binary files…
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2018-06-16T21:54:28Z pjb: msmith: of course, you may want to convert your file to an actual utf-8 encoded file.
2018-06-16T21:55:34Z msmith: yeah, I was under the impression that the external format option would cause the with-open-file to read the integers as bytes
2018-06-16T21:55:52Z pjb: And yes, don't laugh, but we find this kind of representation/encoding problem a lot of times, in places it shouldn't appear.  People (well, "C programmers") don't understand the difference between binary and text, and that hexadecimal is a textual representation for binary, etc.
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2018-06-16T21:56:16Z msmith: that's where the confusion came in
2018-06-16T21:56:30Z Bike: i wasn't laughing, i was just like, agh
2018-06-16T21:56:34Z pjb: And worse, those idiots write data as hexadecimal textual representation and are not able to parse it back in a case insensitive manner, so you find broken middle ware in places you wouldn't believe…
2018-06-16T21:56:48Z pjb: middleware and firmware, so it's not even easy to update.
2018-06-16T21:57:03Z Bike: if you deliberately wrote in the integers that's a more normal mistake than i was imagining, anyway
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2018-06-16T21:58:01Z pjb: In lisp you have to be careful indeed, because you can write a textual representation of a sequence of bytes easily with PRINT in a text file.  But it is as easy to write it in binary form with WRITE-SEQUENCE in a binary file.
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2018-06-16T22:06:57Z karlosz: is there any way to check if a symbol is external in a package without do-external-symbols?
2018-06-16T22:07:28Z pjb: (eql :external (nth-value 1 (find-symbol (symbol-name s) (symbol-package s))))
2018-06-16T22:08:30Z karlosz: oh, thanks
2018-06-16T22:08:51Z pjb: well, use the package you're interested in instead of (symbol-package s) !
2018-06-16T22:09:08Z pjb: But then you have to check that find-symbol returns the same symbol.
2018-06-16T22:09:57Z pjb: (multiple-value-bind (ps sk) (find-symbol (symbol-name s) p)  (and (eq ps s) (eq :external sk)))
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2018-06-17T03:06:47Z DataLinkDroid: Good morning.
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2018-06-17T03:08:48Z DataLinkDroid wonders if there is anyone here who has any experience with using CFFI to load and call functions from an Ada 2012 standalone shared library.
2018-06-17T03:09:49Z DataLinkDroid: I'm not having much luck with my first attempt at this, even though I have tinkered with CFFI before with C libraries, successfully.
2018-06-17T03:13:41Z aeth: Ada, interesting.
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2018-06-17T03:21:45Z DataLinkDroid created the Ada 2012 library (with exported functions according to C standard), so the issue could lie on either side.
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2018-06-17T03:23:43Z DataLinkDroid can call the Ada functions fine from C code, but Ada library initialisation seems to case the lisp to crash with a stack or memory error, which appears to be raised from within Ada land.
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2018-06-17T03:26:46Z DataLinkDroid: *cause the lisp to crash
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2018-06-17T03:32:30Z DataLinkDroid: The exception raised after library init is: raised STORAGE_ERROR : stack overflow or erroneous memory access
2018-06-17T03:33:09Z DataLinkDroid: This looks like an Ada message. So it appears to be getting itself into some kind of trouble while initialising itself.
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2018-06-17T03:40:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-17T03:47:44Z shangul: good morning!
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2018-06-17T03:49:08Z beach: Hello shangul.
2018-06-17T03:49:27Z shangul: Hi beach
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2018-06-17T04:00:46Z DataLinkDroid must away for a little while.
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2018-06-17T05:21:00Z easye: ~    ~.
2018-06-17T05:28:10Z LdBeth: Good afternoon
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2018-06-17T10:24:13Z Inline: sup sup
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2018-06-17T10:35:18Z phoe: loke: I need support
2018-06-17T10:35:25Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/8rkg5q/mcclim_maxima_vector_demo/
2018-06-17T10:35:26Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/8rkger/mcclim_maxima_plot_manipulation/
2018-06-17T10:35:32Z phoe: people ask for more information in the comments
2018-06-17T10:37:28Z shka_: oooh
2018-06-17T10:37:34Z shka_: this is quite useful
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2018-06-17T10:44:25Z shangul: hey! Geeks are not social so don't use social media!
2018-06-17T10:44:49Z shangul: (Except IRC, Blog/Site/*, Email)
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2018-06-17T11:42:15Z jackdaniel: is being a "Geek" a goal in this scenario?
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2018-06-17T11:45:07Z MichaelRaskin: I think Reddit should be borderline acceptable for Lisp talk: either Reddit the company still has people capable to understand Lisp (then they are not strictly enemies), or not and then they consider that subreddit safe gibberish (it's not like you can _comprehensibly_ substantiate any political ideas by Lisp references)
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2018-06-17T12:58:09Z drmeister: What's up with a language-server-protocol server for Common Lisp?   Does anyone use one?
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2018-06-17T13:03:00Z drmeister: jupyterlab appears to be going in that direction - to use language server protocol.   I'd like to improve our Common Lisp based jupyterlab experience.
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2018-06-17T13:47:51Z jackdaniel: language-server-protocol? like swank protocol?
2018-06-17T13:49:37Z beach: https://langserver.org/ apparently.
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2018-06-17T13:54:39Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks
2018-06-17T13:55:14Z beach: Is this going to be another standard that we do not have the manpower to keep up with?
2018-06-17T13:55:56Z beach: Along with X11, Unicode, OpenType, PDF, HTML, etc...
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2018-06-17T13:59:15Z jackdaniel: if it is well organized then it is a fine protocol for pairing CL with any IDE implementing it (the protocol)
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2018-06-17T13:59:30Z jackdaniel: interesting
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2018-06-17T14:23:09Z beach: I hope you are right.
2018-06-17T14:23:48Z beach: Someone needs to check whether it can handle everything that SLIME needs, like presentations, inspector, backtraces, etc.
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2018-06-17T14:24:20Z beach: And I still worry that it will evolve and that we won't have the resources to keep up.
2018-06-17T14:25:37Z Bike: doesn't look like it has evaluation stuff, at a glance
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2018-06-17T14:26:34Z beach: I didn't look myself.  It makes me tired just to think about tracking another standard.
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2018-06-17T15:45:13Z kuribas: If defvar defines a dynamic variable, how do you define a lexical one?
2018-06-17T15:49:27Z drmeister: It irks me that LOOP doesn't have a for-multiple-values (a b c) = (a-multiple-value-call ...)  clause
2018-06-17T15:49:38Z pjb: kuribas: lexically, with LET or LET*.
2018-06-17T15:50:17Z kuribas: hmm, apparently you use asterisks by convention, to avoid clashes.
2018-06-17T15:50:24Z pjb: kuribas: also PROG, LAMBDA, DEFUN, DEFMACRO, DEFMETHOD.
2018-06-17T15:50:44Z pjb: Yes, asterisks are only a convention. But you should stick to it to avoid hours of debugging.
2018-06-17T15:50:45Z kuribas: pjb: those are just local bindings.
2018-06-17T15:51:03Z pjb: There's no standard operator to define global lexical variables.
2018-06-17T15:51:46Z pjb: There's define-symbol-macro allowing you to define a global lexical binding. You can use it to define a macro to define global lexical variables. There are such macros in librairies, under various names such as defglobal, deflex, etc.
2018-06-17T15:52:13Z pjb: cf. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/4VyopdWcFI4/1sDQU-3H8VgJ
2018-06-17T15:53:05Z drmeister: Re: language server protocol - does anyone know who cxxxr is?    https://github.com/cxxxr/cl-lsp
2018-06-17T15:53:35Z pjb: It's usually a function that takes usually a list of a and d and apply car or cdr accordingly.
2018-06-17T15:54:01Z pjb: It's somebody from Japan.
2018-06-17T15:54:35Z pjb: Japanese programmers are discreet.
2018-06-17T15:55:36Z pjb: drmeister: notice also that it's unlicensed, so it's not free software.
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2018-06-17T16:01:28Z drmeister: pjb:  Understood - thank you.   I just emailed the developer and posted an issue about it.   Let's see what happens.
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2018-06-17T16:11:16Z makomo: if i have a generic function (defgeneric test (a b &optional c &rest d))
2018-06-17T16:11:34Z makomo: and then a method (defmethod test (a b &optional c &key d))
2018-06-17T16:11:57Z makomo: by the rules in 7.6.4, these should have congruent lambda lists
2018-06-17T16:12:15Z makomo: but if you call (test 1 2 3 :e 10), no error is signaled for the invalid keyword e
2018-06-17T16:12:26Z makomo: is this because the checking is done only for the signature of the generic function?
2018-06-17T16:12:44Z makomo: signalled*
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2018-06-17T16:18:10Z beach: There is a phrase somewhere that methods with &key arguments are called with an implicit :ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS T.  Let me see whether I can find it.
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2018-06-17T16:21:36Z makomo: beach: disconnected for a second, but i saw your answer. ok.
2018-06-17T16:22:30Z beach: clhs 7.6 4
2018-06-17T16:22:31Z makomo: this? "The checking of the validity of keyword names is done in the generic function, not in each method. A method is invoked as if the keyword argument pair whose name is :allow-other-keys and whose value is true were supplied, though no such argument pair will be passed."
2018-06-17T16:22:38Z beach: clhs 7.6.4
2018-06-17T16:22:38Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2018-06-17T16:22:50Z beach: Yes, exactly.
2018-06-17T16:23:11Z makomo: i missed the second sentence the first time
2018-06-17T16:23:14Z makomo: ok, thanks :-)
2018-06-17T16:23:45Z beach: Anytime.
2018-06-17T16:24:16Z makomo: beach: regarding the CLOS book by Sonya Keene, i find the examples ok, even though they use non-standard functionality.
2018-06-17T16:24:33Z makomo: they specify exactly what each of the non-standard hypothetical functions do
2018-06-17T16:24:41Z makomo: so it's not really a problem to follow along
2018-06-17T16:24:48Z beach: Glad you like it.
2018-06-17T16:25:22Z makomo: figured i should read through it quickly just to catch any details before going on with AMOP :-)
2018-06-17T16:25:35Z beach: Yeah, AMOP is non-trivial.
2018-06-17T16:25:54Z beach: I think I tried it three times.  The first two times I was totally lost.
2018-06-17T16:26:02Z makomo: ooh
2018-06-17T16:26:10Z makomo: it's also quite lengthy and dense. the pages themselves are large
2018-06-17T16:26:14Z beach: I think I needed more experience as a USER of CLOS before I could grasp it.
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2018-06-17T16:27:42Z makomo: mhm
2018-06-17T16:27:46Z skidd0: Hello all
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2018-06-17T16:27:55Z beach: Hello skidd0.
2018-06-17T16:27:58Z makomo: hello \o
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2018-06-17T16:29:38Z skidd0: So I have a lisp file in a multi file package. In this file, I have a (defvar *tasks* '()) special variable that I want to have access to. When I (use-package my-package), the special var *tasts* is unbound
2018-06-17T16:30:03Z skidd0: what's the method for instantiating this variable on 'use-package'?
2018-06-17T16:30:14Z skidd0: am I missing something obvious?
2018-06-17T16:31:17Z beach: Exporting *tasks* from its package, I would think.
2018-06-17T16:31:31Z beach: Or rather, exporting the symbol whose name is "*TASKS*".
2018-06-17T16:31:37Z skidd0: oh i thought you just had to export methods/functions/classes
2018-06-17T16:31:44Z skidd0: that makes sense
2018-06-17T16:31:49Z skidd0: I'll try it out
2018-06-17T16:31:49Z beach: skidd0: Packages are about symbols.
2018-06-17T16:32:07Z beach: skidd0: You don't export functions or classes, you export their names.
2018-06-17T16:32:09Z skidd0: and namespaces, right?
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2018-06-17T16:32:31Z skidd0: oh right, because the name (symbol) gets evaluated to those functions or class objects
2018-06-17T16:32:46Z beach: Not quite, no.
2018-06-17T16:33:06Z skidd0: exporting isn't exporting the class itself, just the symbol that points to the compiled class?
2018-06-17T16:33:21Z beach: That's a reasonable model.
2018-06-17T16:33:35Z skidd0: what's the proper name for 'compiled class'
2018-06-17T16:34:00Z beach: There is no such thing.  A class is an object and can not be compiled.
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2018-06-17T16:34:11Z beach: Only functions can be compiled or not compiled.
2018-06-17T16:34:28Z skidd0: perhaps i should reread that section of PCL
2018-06-17T16:35:01Z beach: A class can be "created" or "defined" if you like.
2018-06-17T16:35:04Z skidd0: so when i make an instance of a class, what's going on there internally?
2018-06-17T16:35:17Z skidd0: lisp pulls that class's object
2018-06-17T16:35:37Z beach: The class IS the object.
2018-06-17T16:35:47Z skidd0: right the class i define in my file
2018-06-17T16:35:55Z beach: It inspects the class metaobject to see how to create the instance and how to initialize it.
2018-06-17T16:35:58Z skidd0: but then, the instance is it's own object right?
2018-06-17T16:36:23Z beach: Yes, the instance of a class and the class metaobjects are distinct objects.
2018-06-17T16:37:05Z skidd0: and that metaobject holds all the things i defined in my code, how to initialize, what member variables are, etc
2018-06-17T16:37:08Z beach: MAKE-INSTANCE looks at the class metaobject of which it is about to create an instance in order to determine how big a chunk of memory to allocate and how to fill it in.
2018-06-17T16:37:19Z skidd0: i see
2018-06-17T16:37:27Z skidd0: thanks, beach
2018-06-17T16:37:29Z beach: Correct, except that they are not called member variables, but "slots".
2018-06-17T16:37:47Z skidd0: are these questions alright here? or should i point them to #lisp-noobs
2018-06-17T16:37:51Z skidd0: oh right, slots
2018-06-17T16:37:54Z skidd0: nomenclature
2018-06-17T16:37:59Z beach: Very important.
2018-06-17T16:38:10Z makomo: indeed :-)
2018-06-17T16:38:39Z beach: skidd0: I think this question is fine.  If your questions become too basic, someone might point to too the noobs channel.
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2018-06-17T16:39:23Z skidd0: alright thanks
2018-06-17T16:39:30Z skidd0: lemme know if i wander in that direction
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2018-06-17T16:39:38Z beach: Sure.
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2018-06-17T16:41:37Z beach: And it is not quite right to say that the symbol gets evaluated to a class, because something like (eval 'person) does not return the class metaobject even if you have (defclass person ...).
2018-06-17T16:41:46Z beach: (find-class 'person) does, however.
2018-06-17T16:42:58Z makomo: the proper thing to say would be that "PERSON names a class", right?
2018-06-17T16:43:11Z beach: Correct.
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2018-06-17T16:44:20Z makomo: bon appetit!
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2018-06-17T16:47:59Z makomo: beach: for when you're around again: regarding the keyword issue, the reason why i didn't think that that second sentence applies to that situation is because it's listen for the case when "If the generic function lambda list mentions &key ..."
2018-06-17T16:48:08Z makomo: listed*
2018-06-17T16:48:33Z makomo: but in my case, the generic function only has &rest and no &key
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2018-06-17T16:49:18Z makomo: so is that really the sentence which describes this observed behavior (the fact that method keyword arguments aren't checked)?
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2018-06-17T17:05:39Z asarch: In this issue of the BYTE magazine, they said there was an issue dedicated to Lisp. Do you know where could I find it? https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1981-08
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2018-06-17T17:06:21Z pjb: https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1979-08
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2018-06-17T17:07:06Z asarch: Thank you!
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2018-06-17T17:07:13Z asarch: Thank you very much pjb :-)
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2018-06-17T17:08:39Z pjb: minion: memo for makomo: notice that defgeneric &rest with defmethod &key doesn't respect the Lyskoff substittution principle.  Avoid it!
2018-06-17T17:08:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell makomo when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-06-17T18:23:23Z makomo: pjb: i assume you meant the Liskov substitution principle? i've never seen that spelling. anyway, how is that related to LSP?
2018-06-17T18:23:23Z minion: makomo, memo from pjb: notice that defgeneric &rest with defmethod &key doesn't respect the Lyskoff substittution principle.  Avoid it!
2018-06-17T18:27:08Z makomo: pjb: hm i think i see what you mean but in this case it doesn't have to do with types, which is the original setting for LSP, right? the problem is that the methods don't align with the interface specified by the generic function
2018-06-17T18:27:19Z phoe: makomo: (defgeneric foo (&rest bar))
2018-06-17T18:27:26Z makomo: i.e. S doesn't act like a T, even though it's a particular implementation of T. S being the method, T being the generic function.
2018-06-17T18:27:27Z phoe: this means that you can pass three arguments to FOO
2018-06-17T18:27:57Z phoe: if you use KEY in there, you will only be able to pass an even number of arguments
2018-06-17T18:28:05Z phoe: which means that you break the protocol
2018-06-17T18:28:20Z makomo: "there" being a method?
2018-06-17T18:28:26Z phoe: yes yes
2018-06-17T18:28:31Z phoe: inside a method there
2018-06-17T18:28:44Z makomo: yup, i agree that it's a bad idea
2018-06-17T18:28:58Z makomo: but still, why aren't you warned about invalid keywords?
2018-06-17T18:29:25Z makomo: i.e. if the method then specifies &key in its lambda list and you pass an unspecified keyword argument, why isn't that an error?
2018-06-17T18:29:32Z makomo: clhs 7.6.4
2018-06-17T18:29:32Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2018-06-17T18:29:45Z makomo: the last sentence of case 4 talks about it, but wouldn't that apply only when case 4 is in effect?
2018-06-17T18:30:16Z phoe: hm
2018-06-17T18:30:40Z makomo: in this case the generic function doesn't specify &key anywhere, so :allow-other-keys shouldn't be implicitly true
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2018-06-17T19:06:15Z pjb: makomo: it is related to the type of the &rest arguments. &key imposes that the &rest argument have an even length, and that each even-nubered element be a symbol.
2018-06-17T19:06:22Z pjb: makomo: this specifies a very precise subtype of list.
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2018-06-17T19:23:42Z ealfonso: anyone familiar with hunchentoot know how to redirect an http request to https on the same port when using ssl-acceptor?
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2018-06-17T19:38:08Z makomo: pjb: mhm, i see. but do you know why no warning is issued for invalid keyword arguments then?
2018-06-17T19:39:06Z pjb: Because it's essentially a run-time check, I'd say.
2018-06-17T19:39:38Z pjb: In anycase, giving a meaningfull warning would require global analysis, after all the defgeneric and defmethod forms for this method have been compiled.
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2018-06-17T19:52:17Z makomo: pjb: by warning i meant error. for example, passing unspecified keyword arguments to a normal function is an error
2018-06-17T19:52:30Z makomo: so yes, i expect an error at run-time
2018-06-17T19:54:11Z aeth: You can actually afaik get some degree of global analysis in SBCL with (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t)
2018-06-17T19:54:31Z aeth: It's behind a flag and defaulted to NIL because (1) it violates parts of the ANSI standard and (2) it will break the interactive flow of CL
2018-06-17T19:55:02Z aeth: It assumes function types will never change. I'm not sure if it also applies to generic functions.
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2018-06-17T20:02:59Z aeth: I think you could have a conforming implementation with global analysis always on if you're willing to have the extra bookkeeping overhead of tracking when things are redefined and knowing what else to redefine in that case. That would also improve the experience with macros and inline functions.
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2018-06-17T21:50:53Z Ukari: is there a lexical version defconstant ?
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2018-06-17T21:52:20Z Bike: nope
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2018-06-17T21:53:30Z pfdietz: You can use symbol-macrolet to define something that looks a lot like a constant.
2018-06-17T21:54:14Z pfdietz: In that if you try to use it as a place for assignment it won't work.
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2018-06-17T21:54:46Z cgay_: Go has that but I have to say I haven't seen it used much. I think in a local scope it's not that useful, though it provides a little more indication of intention.
2018-06-17T21:56:12Z Ukari: i wanna use lexical defconstant or a lexical let which can't assign twice, because it might make code more clear when a variable couldn't be changed
2018-06-17T21:57:45Z Ukari: after i rewrite one piece of code into unchange style, i realized that benefit
2018-06-17T22:01:03Z pfdietz: (let-const ((x e)) . body) ==> (let ((#:G0001 e)) (symbol-macrolet ((x (identity #:G0001))) . body))
2018-06-17T22:01:09Z pfdietz: Write yourself a macro.
2018-06-17T22:02:30Z cgay_: bike-shedding: would be nice to be able to indicate const-ness for a particular variable in a LET, rather than introducing a new level of indentation.
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2018-06-17T22:29:55Z refrijerator: (let ((line "set a 1")) (read-from-string (format nil "(~a)" line)))
2018-06-17T22:30:18Z refrijerator: is there a better way to read the line as a list of atoms?
2018-06-17T22:30:44Z refrijerator: than using (format nil "(~a)" line)
2018-06-17T22:33:24Z Bike: you could loop and read a string stream, but it's not much better
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2018-06-17T22:35:20Z refrijerator: maybe this is a use for a read macro?
2018-06-17T22:35:48Z Bike: yeah, (
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2018-06-17T23:23:36Z pillton: You could also use the position return value of read-from-string and its start argument.
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2018-06-18T03:03:06Z on_ion: froggey: seen this? https://github.com/grz0zrg/fbg
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2018-06-18T03:58:46Z aeth: What do people use for Lisp testing? I've seen two. Roswell. And now this lisp-devel Docker. https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook/testing.html#gitlab-ci https://hub.docker.com/r/daewok/lisp-devel/
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2018-06-18T04:09:40Z edgar-rft: aeth: there's an ANSI test suite for testing Lisp, but I assume that you're not looking what you're asking for.
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2018-06-18T04:29:40Z aeth: edgar-rft: No, I mean testing Lisp code in the cloud
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2018-06-18T04:59:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-18T05:01:33Z low_brain_cache: good morning
2018-06-18T05:02:45Z beach: low_brain_cache: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-06-18T05:03:34Z low_brain_cache: I haven't registered a nick but I've been on here as beginner_supreme, cl0s, Common_Lisp (I think), etc.
2018-06-18T05:03:53Z beach: I see.
2018-06-18T05:04:13Z low_brain_cache: I like to read the conversations on here and learn.
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2018-06-18T05:04:56Z beach: I understand.
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2018-06-18T05:06:37Z low_brain_cache: I figure that since nicks are temporary assuming low activity, and registering a nick doesn't necessarily disallow others from using it, there's no reason to register
2018-06-18T05:06:57Z low_brain_cache: But I'm not knowledgable about IRC per say so..
2018-06-18T05:07:48Z beach: You do get a password when you register.  I don't know how secure it is of course.
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2018-06-18T05:12:05Z LdBeth: Good afternoon
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2018-06-18T05:13:33Z LdBeth: I believe freenode also allow to register several different nick under one mail address for bot or something
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2018-06-18T05:14:47Z low_brain_cache: Is there a freenode manual of commands? /help lists a table but /help <command> doesn't do anything. <- Sorry for the non-lisp question but since we're on the topic of IRC... ;)
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2018-06-18T05:19:47Z LdBeth: low_brain_cache: many commands are IRC client specific, so you should find your own manual
2018-06-18T05:20:08Z low_brain_cache: Oh I see
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2018-06-18T05:29:14Z low_brain_cache: Have a good night everyone! Can't stay awake any longer
2018-06-18T05:30:00Z beach: 'night low_brain_cache.
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2018-06-18T07:39:38Z hajovonta: hi
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2018-06-18T07:40:07Z kuribas: Hi, I've set inferior-lisp-program with customize to sbcl, however everytime I restart emacs, it gets reset to lisp.  Any idea why?
2018-06-18T07:40:52Z varjag: anyone here closely familiar with cl-async?
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2018-06-18T07:42:59Z hajovonta: kuribas: I think this is an #emacs question, but I think you should set the state to "Save for future sessions"
2018-06-18T07:43:27Z kuribas: hajovonta: yes, I did that.
2018-06-18T07:44:03Z varjag: open your .emacs and see if it saved
2018-06-18T07:44:18Z kuribas: it did
2018-06-18T07:44:27Z kuribas: it's just not using it at startup
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2018-06-18T07:45:46Z varjag: check with C-h-v what the variable is set to in the running instance
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2018-06-18T07:59:53Z kuribas: lisp
2018-06-18T08:00:06Z kuribas: well it was before, I set it to sbcl manually now.
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2018-06-18T08:15:36Z kuribas: what's the equivalent of take-while (haskell) in common lisp?
2018-06-18T08:15:59Z kuribas: takeWhile :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
2018-06-18T08:20:48Z jdz: DOLIST?
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2018-06-18T08:21:29Z kuribas: but without mutation?
2018-06-18T08:21:36Z jdz: What mutation?
2018-06-18T08:22:16Z jdz: Is this what takeWhile does? (loop for x in list while x collect x)?
2018-06-18T08:22:37Z kuribas: while (test x)
2018-06-18T08:22:43Z loke: jdz: I thought it was more like remove-if-not?
2018-06-18T08:22:56Z loke: But I may be wrong
2018-06-18T08:23:23Z kuribas: takeWhile isDigit "134abc" => "134"
2018-06-18T08:23:33Z jdz: I have no idea.  Defining questions in terms of what Haskell does in #lisp seems... wrong.
2018-06-18T08:23:51Z kuribas: takeWhile isDigit "134abc523" => "134"
2018-06-18T08:24:36Z jdz: (loop for x in list while (digit-char-p x) collect x)
2018-06-18T08:24:58Z jdz: Works for lists.
2018-06-18T08:24:58Z kuribas: and with dolist?
2018-06-18T08:25:14Z jdz: Why do you want to do that with DOLIST?
2018-06-18T08:25:21Z kuribas: jdz: you suggested it?
2018-06-18T08:25:29Z jdz: Because I have no idea what you want.
2018-06-18T08:25:43Z kuribas: yeah, that loop looks right
2018-06-18T08:26:46Z jdz: (subseq sequence 0 (position-if-not #'digit-char-p sequence))
2018-06-18T08:29:16Z kuribas: okay, thanks
2018-06-18T08:30:34Z jdz: Lisp is not Haskell, so this most likely is not the best way to solve whatever problem it is you're solving.
2018-06-18T08:31:13Z jdz: (parse-integer "134abc523" :junk-allowed t)
2018-06-18T08:33:01Z kuribas: jdz: trimming whitespace
2018-06-18T08:33:28Z jdz: STRING-TRIM
2018-06-18T08:33:52Z jdz: clhs string-trim
2018-06-18T08:33:52Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_tr.htm
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2018-06-18T08:34:41Z jdz wonders what's the Haskell for STRING-RIGHT-TRIM is...
2018-06-18T08:35:17Z kuribas: jdz: reverse . takeWhile isSpace . reverse
2018-06-18T08:36:00Z loke: kuribas: Wouldn't that swimplyimply return the last spaces?
2018-06-18T08:36:24Z kuribas: loke: ah right: reverse . dropWhile isSpace . reverse
2018-06-18T08:37:11Z jdz: Simple, beautiful, efficient.  Choose 2.
2018-06-18T08:37:27Z loke: jdz: I think the haskell example is more like choose 0
2018-06-18T08:37:37Z jdz: Heh.
2018-06-18T08:37:52Z jdz: This is #lisp, we can bash Haskell to our heart's content.
2018-06-18T08:38:09Z loke: No one will every convince me that reverse drop reverse is simple or beautiful. With a magic compiler is may be efficient. Maybe.
2018-06-18T08:38:10Z jdz: Except too much of it is off-topic.
2018-06-18T08:38:26Z jdz: Strings being lists does not help, eh?
2018-06-18T08:38:39Z loke: jdz: Are they?
2018-06-18T08:38:48Z jdz: Pretty sure they are in Haskell.
2018-06-18T08:38:50Z loke: I don't know more than the absolute basics of Haskell
2018-06-18T08:39:04Z loke: But... CATEGORY THEORY!
2018-06-18T08:39:50Z lieven: the standard prelude has some awkward stuff in it. for real work, you should use Text for strings
2018-06-18T08:40:22Z jdz: Right.  And pattern matching works the same on Text?
2018-06-18T08:40:37Z lieven: kinda sorta not really :)
2018-06-18T08:40:56Z kuribas: jdz, loke for efficiency you'd use stripEnd on Text.
2018-06-18T08:41:19Z jdz: Looks like cheating to me.
2018-06-18T08:41:45Z jdz: Might as well write the whole thing in CL.
2018-06-18T08:42:08Z kuribas: jdz: the same amount of cheating as string-trim
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2018-06-18T08:42:49Z jdz: Then why all the talk about takeWhile when what you should have asked is stripStart?
2018-06-18T08:42:55Z varjag: but in cl you are meant to cheat
2018-06-18T08:43:04Z varjag: all purists are over in #scheme
2018-06-18T08:43:43Z kuribas: I was reading this, and I found the lisp code quite ugly: https://markkarpov.com/post/lisp-and-haskell.html
2018-06-18T08:43:58Z kuribas: might not be the best implementation though...
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2018-06-18T08:45:14Z kuribas: varjag: yeah scheme is great
2018-06-18T08:45:30Z varjag: some people should blog less and code more
2018-06-18T08:45:49Z jdz: Right, first example, the MAP 'string should be plain DOLIST.
2018-06-18T08:46:19Z jdz: Well, not DOLIST, LOOP.  Or MAP nil.
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2018-06-18T08:47:38Z kuribas: in haskell: addPadding str pad newline = intercalate ('\n' : replicate pad ' ') $ lines $ if newline then "\n" ++ str else str
2018-06-18T08:48:11Z kuribas: there's a CL version of lines here: https://github.com/vindarel/cl-str
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2018-06-18T08:49:08Z hajovonta: Common Lisp is not a functional language, but it supports functional style programming.
2018-06-18T08:49:08Z varjag: i'm sure it's even more elegant in perl
2018-06-18T08:50:32Z loke: kuribas: Thtat link you sent
2018-06-18T08:50:43Z loke: not only is it ugly Lisp. It's wrong and broken.
2018-06-18T08:50:52Z jdz: I wonder why people who have no real experience with a programming language immediately have an urge to write articles titled "Why XXX is not my favourite programming language and why you should use YYY."?
2018-06-18T08:51:54Z varjag: jdz: noone knows programming better than a fresh graduate
2018-06-18T08:52:22Z kuribas: how would you write add-text-padding?
2018-06-18T08:52:54Z hajovonta: "if your code compiles, it probably works" lol
2018-06-18T08:52:56Z loke: kuribas: I'm not entirely sure what that function is supposed to do
2018-06-18T08:53:09Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Are you the author of that blof post?
2018-06-18T08:53:11Z loke: kuribas: Tell me what you want it to do and I'll tell you how to write it
2018-06-18T08:53:15Z kuribas: shrdlu68: no
2018-06-18T08:53:37Z shrdlu68: It's fizzbuzz time!
2018-06-18T08:53:38Z kuribas: loke: prepend pad amount of spaces to each line except the first.
2018-06-18T08:53:42Z hajovonta: loke I think (judging by the name) it takes a string and extends it with dummy characters or something like that
2018-06-18T08:53:46Z loke: shrdlu68: Did you see the add-text-padding fuction? Wtf... w-o-t-s with a map 'string inside followed by a return that is never used?
2018-06-18T08:54:35Z kuribas: loke: I don't care about the newline argument
2018-06-18T08:54:41Z loke: Oh wait. he maps over the characters. And he seems to believe that 'string refers to the type of the thing he's mapping over
2018-06-18T08:54:48Z jdz: kuribas: what is the ADD-TEXT-PADDING supposed to do?
2018-06-18T08:55:09Z kuribas: jdz: see my comment for loke
2018-06-18T08:55:09Z jdz: Add padding at the start of a line?
2018-06-18T08:55:17Z loke: kuribas: so you want to add spaces to make every line the same length?
2018-06-18T08:55:32Z loke: jdz: it seems to add it to the end
2018-06-18T08:55:32Z jdz: Why is the first line special?
2018-06-18T08:55:32Z kuribas: loke: no
2018-06-18T08:56:06Z loke: Oh wait. you're right
2018-06-18T08:56:09Z kuribas: jdz: I don't know
2018-06-18T08:56:20Z kuribas: jdz: it's not my blog
2018-06-18T08:56:29Z loke: So it just adds PADDING number of chars to the beginnign of each line
2018-06-18T08:56:39Z jdz: Except the first one.
2018-06-18T08:57:03Z loke: So he's just replacing #\Newline with <space...>#\Newline
2018-06-18T08:57:15Z varjag: replace newline with newline + padding
2018-06-18T08:57:24Z loke: yeah
2018-06-18T08:57:25Z shrdlu68: So if new-line is nil it will return one line?
2018-06-18T08:58:21Z loke would probably just use CL-PPCRE:REGEX-REPLACE-ALL
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2018-06-18T09:01:23Z loke: He claims he wrote unix-opts
2018-06-18T09:01:27Z loke: I actually use that one
2018-06-18T09:01:35Z jdz: Never mind that the original code has parameter named STR that is shadowed by LET binding.
2018-06-18T09:02:54Z kuribas: how do you prepend newline in a string?
2018-06-18T09:03:09Z jdz: OK, that's intended.  Making a copy of input for no apparent reason.  I wonder if the guy has tested his code?
2018-06-18T09:03:11Z loke: I like his argument that QL doesn't use tests. But tests are required. Therefore QL is broken.
2018-06-18T09:03:27Z loke: Instead of: QL doesn't need tests, and still works. Perhaps I'm wrong and tests are not the end-all-be-all?
2018-06-18T09:03:54Z jdz: This function seems so convoluted it triggers all the possible wrong signals in my brain.
2018-06-18T09:04:19Z loke: jdz: It probably _has_ tests, and therefore it's perfect. No matter hopw convoluted. The tests pass!
2018-06-18T09:04:55Z kuribas: ok, so I have this, with the cl-string library: (join ((concat (string #\Newline) (repeat padding " "))) (lines str))
2018-06-18T09:05:03Z kuribas: That actually looks like the haskell.
2018-06-18T09:05:55Z kuribas: loke: regular expressions are messy.
2018-06-18T09:06:05Z jdz: So many functions...
2018-06-18T09:07:29Z jdz: If I had to work with lines I'd probably have a function MAP-LINES or something.
2018-06-18T09:07:54Z kuribas: jdz: mapcar lines?
2018-06-18T09:08:03Z jdz: No, MAP-LINES.
2018-06-18T09:08:27Z jdz: Which would call a supplied function with 3 arguments: STRING, START and END.
2018-06-18T09:10:21Z kuribas: that's less general
2018-06-18T09:11:13Z jdz: It would also not be dog slow.
2018-06-18T09:11:31Z kuribas: jdz: so show your version?
2018-06-18T09:11:37Z jdz: Version of what?
2018-06-18T09:11:49Z kuribas: add-text-padding
2018-06-18T09:12:04Z jdz: It's a stupid function with convoluted requirements.
2018-06-18T09:12:40Z jdz: I have real trouble wrapping my head around what it's supposed to do and in what circumstances one would use such a function.
2018-06-18T09:12:53Z jdz: If only the author of the blog post had some test cases...
2018-06-18T09:13:05Z kuribas: jdz: as I said before "prepend pad amount of spaces to each line except the first."
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2018-06-18T09:13:32Z kuribas: jdz: ok fine, you just want to criticise...
2018-06-18T09:13:54Z varjag: https://pastebin.com/rDG3QEq2
2018-06-18T09:13:57Z varjag: something like that?
2018-06-18T09:14:16Z varjag: would still rather use a library function
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2018-06-18T09:16:04Z kuribas: varjag: what do those parenthesis across the newline do?
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2018-06-18T09:16:42Z jdz: kuribas: https://lpaste.net/6235782593799782400
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2018-06-18T09:18:41Z kuribas: jdz: ok thanks.  I don't find it more elegant, but "de gustibus..."
2018-06-18T09:19:02Z varjag: mine is elegant and inefficient
2018-06-18T09:19:12Z varjag: which i believe is closest to haskell spirit
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2018-06-18T09:19:25Z kuribas: varjag: haskell is pretty efficient, after inlining etc...
2018-06-18T09:19:35Z kuribas: varjag: if you use Text, not String
2018-06-18T09:20:11Z jdz: Elegance is subjective.  I personally find my version straight-forward and directly matching the problem statement, and also not particularly inefficient.
2018-06-18T09:21:20Z jdz: It is also very easy to change.
2018-06-18T09:21:51Z kuribas: also about 4 times the size...
2018-06-18T09:22:17Z jdz: The size of what?
2018-06-18T09:22:22Z kuribas: the code
2018-06-18T09:22:38Z kuribas: anyway, no point in discussing taste...
2018-06-18T09:22:52Z kuribas: I just wanted to know what is the idiomatic lisp solution.
2018-06-18T09:23:42Z jdz: Definitely not what's in the mentioned blog post.
2018-06-18T09:24:10Z kuribas: yeah, I figured :)
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2018-06-18T09:25:37Z varjag: kuribas: idiomatic lisp solution is to use an existing library, implementing this efficiently
2018-06-18T09:25:55Z varjag: cl-ppcre is a good start
2018-06-18T09:26:53Z loke: varjag: What is the purpose of the MAKE-STRING?
2018-06-18T09:27:04Z loke: Instead of that, couldn't you just do (STRING E)
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2018-06-18T09:29:49Z varjag: loke: you are right
2018-06-18T09:30:59Z jdz: I don't think deliberately inefficient code is elegant, either.
2018-06-18T09:31:22Z jdz: http://prog21.dadgum.com/116.html
2018-06-18T09:31:57Z shrdlu68: kuribas: https://gist.github.com/shrdlu68/beeed6385d9a323eebfdee5437c41dd8
2018-06-18T09:31:59Z varjag: it's not deliverately inefficient, i could do it a lot worse if i wanted
2018-06-18T09:32:05Z varjag: s/v/b
2018-06-18T09:34:36Z shrdlu68: A fiendishly clever person could probably do all this in one format string.
2018-06-18T09:35:25Z varjag: not entirely unlikely..
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2018-06-18T09:41:41Z kuribas: shrdlu68: ok, so lisp programmers favour mutable solutions.
2018-06-18T09:42:03Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Mutable?
2018-06-18T09:42:04Z jdz: kuribas: my version was not mutable at all.
2018-06-18T09:42:25Z jdz: For any definition of "mutable".
2018-06-18T09:42:30Z shrdlu68: Neither is mine.
2018-06-18T09:42:38Z kuribas: jdz: yes write-string and write-char mutate a stream.
2018-06-18T09:42:58Z jdz: kuribas: what stream?  how can you observe that?
2018-06-18T09:43:13Z kuribas: jdz: out
2018-06-18T09:43:31Z shrdlu68: jdz: He's referring to with-output-to-string.
2018-06-18T09:43:43Z jdz: Also, my version is easy to change so that it writes straight to a stream, without accumulating all the strings which most likely go to a stream afterwards, anyway.
2018-06-18T09:44:08Z jdz: kuribas: I recently heard that in Haskell it's also OK to mutate things if they don't escape a function?
2018-06-18T09:44:21Z kuribas: jdz: yes
2018-06-18T09:44:33Z kuribas: jdz: the type system makes sure it's still pure.
2018-06-18T09:44:42Z jdz: Same as with my code.
2018-06-18T09:44:45Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Well, then by that definition...
2018-06-18T09:44:45Z varjag: my version doesn't mutate anything either
2018-06-18T09:44:47Z jdz: I assert that it's pure.
2018-06-18T09:44:56Z shrdlu68: I too.
2018-06-18T09:45:02Z kuribas: ok then :)
2018-06-18T09:45:25Z kuribas: jdz: or you can use unsafe... functions, and assert it yourself.
2018-06-18T09:45:31Z jdz: Simple, pure and efficient!  All 3.
2018-06-18T09:45:31Z shrdlu68: Called with exactly the same set of arguments, the result with always be the same, regardless of any changes outside the function.
2018-06-18T09:45:57Z shrdlu68: That, I thought, was the whole point of immutability.
2018-06-18T09:46:26Z shrdlu68: There is no way to alter the function's behavior outside of it.
2018-06-18T09:46:50Z jdz: shrdlu68: No, bragging about one's favourite compiler is the whole point of immutability.
2018-06-18T09:47:21Z varjag: just call your stream monad-stream and you're good
2018-06-18T09:47:45Z shka: why you are discussing haskell
2018-06-18T09:47:50Z shka: this is common lisp channel
2018-06-18T09:48:12Z jdz guilty as charged
2018-06-18T09:49:34Z jdz: I was just hoping that making fun of Haskell would be a bit less off-topic.
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2018-06-18T09:50:01Z hajovonta: safe functions are for pussies
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2018-06-18T09:50:32Z jdz: Right, I also take scissors with me when I go jogging.
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2018-06-18T09:53:37Z kuribas: real programmers directly write machine code
2018-06-18T09:55:37Z kuribas: is mapcar the same as map 'list ?
2018-06-18T09:55:52Z kuribas: just a specialised version of map?
2018-06-18T09:56:29Z jdz: kuribas: MAP works on sequences, not just lists.
2018-06-18T10:02:19Z LdBeth: shka: monads are not Haskell specific thing. Any languages with proper lambda support can have that
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2018-06-18T10:02:48Z shka: LdBeth: i know that
2018-06-18T10:05:23Z LdBeth sorry I didn’t read log longer
2018-06-18T10:08:04Z LdBeth: A CLOS question, now I have a class which has slots shared across all instances by :allocation :class, but how can I access these slots given I only have name of that class with no instance
2018-06-18T10:08:39Z shka: LdBeth: find-class will return instance of class
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2018-06-18T10:09:29Z shka: not sure where exactly value is, but i would start by checking slot definitions
2018-06-18T10:09:37Z shka: that are in the class object
2018-06-18T10:09:46Z shka: that you can inspect with slime inspector
2018-06-18T10:10:01Z shka: does this helps?
2018-06-18T10:11:00Z LdBeth: Thanks, now I have some idea to start work with
2018-06-18T10:11:54Z _death: class-prototype
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2018-06-18T10:19:28Z shka: makes sense
2018-06-18T10:20:24Z flip214: Can anybody remember seeing a high-level interface to the Ethereum Blockchain RPC in CL?
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2018-06-18T10:37:18Z Ukari: i found that in some project's file structure, test module are put into /t instead of /test, is it a tradition? for example, https://tinyurl.com/ya7f5w95
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2018-06-18T10:47:31Z LdBeth: _death: that’s very helpful, thanks
2018-06-18T10:47:32Z LdBeth: Although I believe its not in the standard
2018-06-18T10:48:54Z _death: Ukari: think it was a ruby convention
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2018-06-18T10:52:01Z _death: LdBeth: it's part of the metaobject protocol
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2018-06-18T10:55:58Z kuribas: since we were talking about efficiency... I am disassembling a simple function: (defun f (x y) (+ x (* y 2))) in sbcl.  The resulting code doesn't have any add instruction...
2018-06-18T10:56:25Z kuribas: I tried adding a declaration: (defun f (x y) (declare (type fixnum x y)) (+ x (* y 2)))
2018-06-18T10:56:34Z kuribas: That doesn't seem to improve the code either.
2018-06-18T11:00:58Z kuribas: I would think it does a check first on the type, then generates efficient assembly to add the two numbers.
2018-06-18T11:01:17Z kuribas: instead it seems to call a generic function +
2018-06-18T11:02:24Z scymtym_: kuribas: (* <fixnum> 2) is not a fixnum. try e.g. (declare (type (unsigned-byte 32) x y))
2018-06-18T11:03:39Z kuribas: what's 2 then?
2018-06-18T11:04:10Z kuribas: scymtym_: right, that gives pretty efficient disassembly.
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2018-06-18T11:08:11Z scymtym_: if you want modular arithmetic instead of restricting the argument types, you can do (defun f (x y) (declare (type fixnum x y)) (ldb (byte 32 0) (+ x (* y 2)))) (in SBCL)
2018-06-18T11:10:26Z TMA: scymtym_: would that work on 32-bit sbcl, where the fixnums are 31 bit only?
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2018-06-18T11:12:12Z kuribas: what's the difference between fixnum and unsigned-byte?
2018-06-18T11:12:47Z scymtym_: TMA: it would produce the correct result. efficiency would depend on whether the untagged representation was used for the arithmetic, i think
2018-06-18T11:13:08Z lieven: fixnums will become bignums on overflow, unsigned-byte will wrap around
2018-06-18T11:14:08Z lieven: if you want to assure the compiler that that wont happen you can do (the fixnum (* <fixnum> 2))
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2018-06-18T11:16:39Z kuribas: lieven: I see, thanks
2018-06-18T11:17:51Z lieven: kuribas: in optimising settings, a CL compiler will not check your type declarations but will take your word for it. If you lie to the compiler, it will have its revenge.
2018-06-18T11:18:28Z kuribas: lieven: so set safety to 1 always?
2018-06-18T11:19:07Z jdz: Yes.
2018-06-18T11:19:14Z jdz: At least 1.
2018-06-18T11:19:16Z lieven: debug 3 speed 0 safety 3 unless locally and you know what you're doing
2018-06-18T11:19:37Z _death: my advice is to avoid "fixnum" and explicitly specify the size
2018-06-18T11:19:39Z lieven: CPU cycles are cheap, programmer time is expensive
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2018-06-18T11:19:53Z kuribas: is speed 3 also unsafe?
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2018-06-18T11:20:10Z jmercouris: lieven: CPU cycles are NOT cheap
2018-06-18T11:20:11Z kuribas: sbcl seems to give a type error with speed 3 as well
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2018-06-18T11:20:39Z kuribas: and cheap depends on the problem.
2018-06-18T11:21:12Z kuribas: if you need 10 instances to do number crunching, then optimizing makes sense.
2018-06-18T11:23:00Z jmercouris: kuribas: Agreed!
2018-06-18T11:23:25Z jmercouris: I'm just trying to dispel the myth ath CPU cycles are ALWAYS cheap, there is of course times when they are cheap, like during one-off tasks
2018-06-18T11:25:11Z kuribas: you can count the cost of requiring more computers - the cost of the programmer optimizing it.
2018-06-18T11:25:28Z jackdaniel is ordering 20 CPU cycles (since they have a reasonable price)
2018-06-18T11:25:42Z kuribas: jackdaniel: aws works like that
2018-06-18T11:26:36Z jdz: Writing generic inefficient code and calling it "programmer efficiency" is snake oil.
2018-06-18T11:26:54Z jackdaniel: can I buy 20 CPU cycles from aws? that's really fine-grained :) what if I have a program which is composed only of operations where each takes 3 cycles?
2018-06-18T11:27:23Z kuribas: having to choose between safety and efficiency is also something you get when you bargain for using a dynamic language
2018-06-18T11:27:44Z jdz: Except when the language in question is CL: we get both.
2018-06-18T11:28:03Z jdz: The pinnacle of practicality in programming language design.
2018-06-18T11:28:13Z kuribas: jdz: you don't?
2018-06-18T11:28:32Z jdz: I don't.  I write my code, and it is efficient by design!
2018-06-18T11:28:48Z jackdaniel: I don't think the major efficiency and safety gain comes from the language you write in – you can create unsafe and inefficient algorithms in a safe and efficient language
2018-06-18T11:29:11Z jdz: jackdaniel: yes, we already discussed Haskell.
2018-06-18T11:29:15Z jackdaniel: and I'm inclined to believe, that the reverse is also possible
2018-06-18T11:29:34Z kuribas: jdz: so tell me how I get safe and efficient lisp
2018-06-18T11:29:35Z jackdaniel: (that is: write safe and efficient programs in unsafe and inefficient language)
2018-06-18T11:29:48Z jdz: kuribas: I already gave you an example.
2018-06-18T11:30:08Z jackdaniel: kuribas: you simply write safe and efficient code ;-) what lisp gives you is a decent optimizing compiler and runtime safety guarantees
2018-06-18T11:30:13Z jdz: kuribas: care to do some benchmarks with your Haskell version?
2018-06-18T11:30:23Z kuribas: jdz: sure
2018-06-18T11:30:31Z kuribas: jdz: the first problem?
2018-06-18T11:30:51Z jdz: Whichever.
2018-06-18T11:31:49Z kuribas: I don't know how benchmarks are done in CL though...
2018-06-18T11:31:51Z jdz: kuribas: make sure you use the takeWhile, etc. version (i.e., tho generic programmer-cycles saving one).
2018-06-18T11:32:14Z jdz: kuribas: easy, you wrap a call in TIME.
2018-06-18T11:32:29Z kuribas: jdz: I didn't write that with efficiency in mind.  It should be ok anyway.
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2018-06-18T11:33:39Z jackdaniel: are we doing "my language is better" mockup battle? ,p
2018-06-18T11:33:54Z jackdaniel: mockup, because it never leads to anything
2018-06-18T11:34:17Z jdz: It will definitely lead to strengthen our respective beliefs, no matter the numbers.
2018-06-18T11:34:26Z jdz: Because the other party will surely have cheated.
2018-06-18T11:34:39Z _death: 1/3 in Haskell...
2018-06-18T11:35:16Z jdz: _death: c'mon bruh, we only care about toy examples, not practical real world scenarios.
2018-06-18T11:35:33Z jdz: But we still want to see numbers.
2018-06-18T11:35:42Z jdz: I'm holding my breath.
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2018-06-18T11:40:26Z kuribas: does sbcl do type inference?
2018-06-18T11:40:33Z jdz: Yes.
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2018-06-18T11:41:41Z kuribas: so will that omit type checks?
2018-06-18T11:41:57Z jdz: If you ask it to.
2018-06-18T11:42:09Z jdz: But we already told you not to do SAFETY 0.
2018-06-18T11:42:28Z kuribas: no, I mean in safe code
2018-06-18T11:42:35Z jdz: Show me safe code, first.
2018-06-18T11:42:56Z kuribas: omit type checks by type inference, not by forcing it.
2018-06-18T11:43:46Z jdz: I don't want to omit type checks, just the opposite -- I want more type checks!
2018-06-18T11:44:25Z jdz: Because my programs change as I develop them.
2018-06-18T11:44:28Z jackdaniel: if the type is inferred, then redundant type checks may be safely removed (unless there is a bug in type inference algorithm)
2018-06-18T11:44:31Z jdz: And they're running all the time.
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2018-06-18T11:45:26Z White_Flame: in other words, type checks internal to a function body migh tbe elided.  Those at the interface should remain intact
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2018-06-18T11:48:29Z kuribas: what I mean, is that if you have a function using fixnum, calling another function with fixnum, the typecheck is redundant
2018-06-18T11:48:50Z jdz: kuribas: not if one of the functions is changed.
2018-06-18T11:51:49Z jdz: It looks like you're wasting programmer-cycles with unimportant details instead of concentrating on a task at hand.
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2018-06-18T11:52:27Z jmercouris: jdz: There are nicer ways to speak
2018-06-18T11:52:57Z jdz: I'm sorry if that sounds not-nice, that's my actual observation.
2018-06-18T11:53:10Z jdz: I trust my programs to be efficient enough if I don't write intentionally inefficient code.
2018-06-18T11:53:21Z jdz: Most of the time I really don't bother.
2018-06-18T11:53:22Z _death: think about program evolution.. starting a lisp brings up a world at a particular stage of evolution, and you further evolve it by evaluating code.. static languages result in a dead world that's incapable of evolution
2018-06-18T11:53:39Z jdz: If there's a tight inner loop I pull out a profiler and see what can be done.
2018-06-18T11:54:06Z jmercouris: _death: I've never thought about that
2018-06-18T11:54:25Z jmercouris: _death: what are "static" languages? ones without macros?
2018-06-18T11:55:03Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: read up on dynamic vs static languages
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2018-06-18T11:55:20Z jdz: I'd bet introspection and support for re-definition is pre-requisites.
2018-06-18T11:55:23Z kuribas: so the lisp code took 0.069 (with no optimizations as recommended), the haskell code 0.009sec
2018-06-18T11:55:33Z _death: jmercouris: perhaps a better way to distinguish is system thinking vs. language thinking
2018-06-18T11:55:35Z kuribas: haskell code with -O2
2018-06-18T11:55:59Z jdz: kuribas: you sure you're comparing apples to apples?
2018-06-18T11:56:06Z kuribas: jdz: the same algorithm
2018-06-18T11:56:14Z jdz: *sigh*
2018-06-18T11:56:19Z jackdaniel: kuribas: then stick to haskell if you plan to write these kind of programs and you really care about efficiency on such level, lisp clearly fails to meet your standards
2018-06-18T11:56:25Z jdz: kuribas: care to paste the code (both versions)?
2018-06-18T11:56:26Z jackdaniel: discussion -- solved :-)
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2018-06-18T11:58:53Z _death: jmercouris: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/Incommensurability.pdf contains some good discussion about systems vs. languages.. it takes a while to get there though, because the author wrote one essay where he should've written two
2018-06-18T11:59:07Z jdz: Right, and write another article titled "Why Common Lisp is not my favourite programming language and why I'm sticking with Haskell".
2018-06-18T12:00:20Z kuribas: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/c482217b48b8012dc67cb036f7805a60
2018-06-18T12:00:24Z jackdaniel: well, these articles kept CL closeish to mainstream for years :p
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2018-06-18T12:00:41Z jackdaniel: if not by practice at least /some/ people heard about it
2018-06-18T12:01:27Z jackdaniel: protip: you may put x as a third argument in dotimes, it will be returned by that block
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2018-06-18T12:01:33Z jmercouris: _death: I've added to my reading list, thanks
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2018-06-18T12:02:12Z kuribas: feel free to improve the lisp code
2018-06-18T12:02:19Z jdz: kuribas: at least add (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 1))) to the functions...
2018-06-18T12:02:31Z kuribas: jdz: I was just told not to do that
2018-06-18T12:02:38Z jdz: Not to do what?
2018-06-18T12:02:48Z kuribas: set speed to anything other than 0
2018-06-18T12:02:51Z jdz: You were told not to do SAFETY 0, but SAFETY 1.
2018-06-18T12:03:06Z jdz: There's a difference between SPEED and SAFETY.
2018-06-18T12:03:23Z jdz: And you were told to never set SAFETY to 0, not SPEED.
2018-06-18T12:03:54Z jackdaniel: kuribas: may I ask a question: do you plan to learn lisp, or your goal is to compare it to haskell?
2018-06-18T12:04:16Z kuribas:  <lieven> debug 3 speed 0 safety 3 unless locally and you know what you're doing
2018-06-18T12:04:16Z kuribas:  
2018-06-18T12:04:31Z kuribas: jackdaniel: both
2018-06-18T12:04:42Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: may I ask a question: why do people preface questions with questions in this manner?
2018-06-18T12:04:55Z kuribas: but I'll stop annoying you guys with it
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2018-06-18T12:05:13Z jackdaniel: imo you can't do both *at the same time*, because these are two different languages with different promises
2018-06-18T12:05:38Z jdz: kuribas: you might as well think what you're doing.  Why not set -O0 -g for haskell version?
2018-06-18T12:05:38Z jackdaniel: for instance (I don't know haskell, so I may be wrong here) – if haskell is functional, then it can memoize function call results
2018-06-18T12:05:41Z kuribas: the thing is, I don't find giving up safety for performance a good option.
2018-06-18T12:05:49Z jdz: Not that it would change anything, but still... comparing apples to apples...
2018-06-18T12:05:55Z jackdaniel: in Common Lisp you'd have to create your own defmemo macro for that to achieve similar result
2018-06-18T12:06:39Z jdz: kuribas: that's why we tell you to never declare SAFETY 0.
2018-06-18T12:06:40Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: how can I answer? that's how I speak sometimes? should I really explain myself on this matter?
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2018-06-18T12:07:14Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I was making an observation that I thought you might be interested in reflecting on
2018-06-18T12:07:29Z jackdaniel: I've noticed only a question, not an observation
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2018-06-18T12:07:46Z jmercouris: It was a socratic observation ;)
2018-06-18T12:08:18Z jackdaniel: sorry socrates, I don't get you
2018-06-18T12:08:24Z kuribas: jdz: I am getting the same performance with speed 3, but maybe i am doing something wrong.
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2018-06-18T12:09:04Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning - last post on the matter, as it is off,topic
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2018-06-18T12:10:10Z jackdaniel: I know what is a socratic question, I just fail to recognize it in yours :)
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2018-06-18T12:10:24Z varjag: kuribas: lisp optimization declaration is a vector
2018-06-18T12:10:42Z varjag: speed 3 alone isn't very precise
2018-06-18T12:10:49Z varjag: depends on other settings too
2018-06-18T12:11:10Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Could you paste the code you're comparing?
2018-06-18T12:11:58Z kuribas: shrdlu68: I did
2018-06-18T12:12:00Z shrdlu68: kuribas: The biggest optimization, in my experience, is usually in type declarations.
2018-06-18T12:12:07Z kuribas: shrdlu68: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/c482217b48b8012dc67cb036f7805a60
2018-06-18T12:13:37Z jdz: kuribas: also, you don't have a declaration for the X variable in G.
2018-06-18T12:13:49Z jdz: But you have one in the Haskell version.
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2018-06-18T12:14:37Z kuribas: ah right
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2018-06-18T12:15:18Z jdz: Also, this exercise is really silly, nothing to do with the ADD-TEXT-PADDING we discussed earlier.
2018-06-18T12:15:36Z jdz: About writing intentionally inefficient code in the name of saving programmer-cycles.
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2018-06-18T12:16:21Z kuribas: jdz: doesn't significantly reduce the runtime performance
2018-06-18T12:17:38Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Inline #'f
2018-06-18T12:17:51Z kuribas: shrdlu68: in the declare?
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2018-06-18T12:18:22Z shrdlu68: (declare (inline f)) just before the defun
2018-06-18T12:19:18Z varjag: 0.014 sec for me
2018-06-18T12:19:23Z varjag: don't have haskell here tho
2018-06-18T12:19:38Z jdz: I thought the point of the exercise was not to try and optimize a trivial piece of code, but to compare the speed of idiomatically written code...
2018-06-18T12:20:03Z jdz: Still don't see any sign of takeWhile here...
2018-06-18T12:20:25Z shrdlu68: kuribas: You haven't declared the types of x, y, n in #'g
2018-06-18T12:21:29Z jdz: kuribas: also, what's the result of g 1000000 in your Haskell version?
2018-06-18T12:21:43Z kuribas: jdz: about 2ms
2018-06-18T12:21:56Z jdz: No, not the time, the result.
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2018-06-18T12:23:00Z jdz: And then tell me more about safety.
2018-06-18T12:23:34Z jackdaniel: surely result is 42
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2018-06-18T12:23:39Z varjag: shrdlu68: declaring #'f inline takes it to 0.003 seconds
2018-06-18T12:23:39Z jackdaniel: because it is the answer
2018-06-18T12:23:50Z kuribas: jdz: 1500000500000
2018-06-18T12:23:52Z jdz: Considering you've translated the code correctly, and Int in Haskell is 32-bit signed integer.
2018-06-18T12:24:16Z kuribas: varjag: can I see the code please?
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2018-06-18T12:25:31Z varjag: kuribas: just (declaim (inline f)) globally
2018-06-18T12:25:47Z varjag: the other optimizations don't do much
2018-06-18T12:26:02Z varjag: well declaring speed/safety will shave you a millisecond or two
2018-06-18T12:29:12Z jdz: Next step of the exercise is to measure the time it takes to compute a value that exceeds Haskells Int type.
2018-06-18T12:29:33Z jdz: Common Lisp will happily and safely oblige, what will Haskell do?
2018-06-18T12:29:39Z kuribas: with 100000000 I get about 0.200s for sbcl, 0.70s for ghc.
2018-06-18T12:32:50Z kuribas: jdz: what do you mean?
2018-06-18T12:33:08Z kuribas: jdz: I understood that (unsigned-int 32) will just wrap around.
2018-06-18T12:33:27Z jdz: kuribas: change the result of F to be (+ x (* y 1024 1024 1024)).
2018-06-18T12:33:47Z jdz: I.e., instead of multiplying by 2, multiply by 1024^3.
2018-06-18T12:36:31Z varjag: if you change the u32 typedecl to NUMBER in #'f, it'll likely speed up
2018-06-18T12:36:53Z shrdlu68: Or to fixnum.
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2018-06-18T12:36:55Z jdz: What's the point?
2018-06-18T12:37:19Z kuribas: anyway, thanks for the help everyone
2018-06-18T12:37:24Z jdz: Haha.
2018-06-18T12:37:33Z shrdlu68: kuribas: What have you learnt?
2018-06-18T12:37:50Z jdz: kuribas: I'd still like to know what the result with my proposed change for the Haskell version is.
2018-06-18T12:37:51Z kuribas: shrdlu68: that you can use declaration to improve the performance of lisp code
2018-06-18T12:37:59Z jdz: In CL it is 536871449370911500000.
2018-06-18T12:38:00Z kuribas: jdz: feel free to try it out :)
2018-06-18T12:38:15Z jdz: Calculated in sub-second.
2018-06-18T12:38:24Z jdz: I don't have Haskell around.
2018-06-18T12:38:42Z jdz: Why would I want if it can't compute such simple functions?
2018-06-18T12:38:52Z jdz: Safely.
2018-06-18T12:39:19Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Indeed. But you don't have to, until speed really matters. It won't get in your way screaming for declarations and types.
2018-06-18T12:39:59Z kuribas: shrdlu68: I am going to work on a codebase involving lots of data, were performance does matter.
2018-06-18T12:40:12Z jdz: kuribas: do correct results also matter?
2018-06-18T12:40:21Z kuribas: jdz: absolutely
2018-06-18T12:40:29Z jdz: If yes, may I suggest using Common Lisp instead of Haskell?
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2018-06-18T12:40:40Z kuribas: jdz: you may
2018-06-18T12:40:48Z jdz: Because as we just witnessed, Haskell clearly comes short in this departament.
2018-06-18T12:40:49Z shrdlu68: kuribas: Good, write the code as you would naturally, with optimal data structures and algorithms, _then_ add declarations.
2018-06-18T12:41:16Z kuribas: shrdlu68: the code is already written...
2018-06-18T12:41:28Z jmercouris: kuribas: rewrite it in rust
2018-06-18T12:41:39Z White_Flame: rewrite in assembly
2018-06-18T12:41:40Z jmercouris: I'm joking of course
2018-06-18T12:41:58Z varjag: swift
2018-06-18T12:42:05Z jdz: I've heard Rust is faster than C.
2018-06-18T12:42:07Z White_Flame: or heck, if it's heavily math-oriented, go all GPU on it
2018-06-18T12:42:09Z varjag: it's like haskell but with better syntax
2018-06-18T12:42:15Z kuribas: White_Flame: yeah, that would be cool
2018-06-18T12:42:29Z kuribas: White_Flame: but not all problems map well to the GPU
2018-06-18T12:42:40Z jdz: Change the problem.
2018-06-18T12:43:05Z jmercouris: jdz: If you reframe any problem enough times, I belive you'll always end up where you started: rewrite it in rust
2018-06-18T12:43:38Z kuribas: White_Flame: for example, simple averaging numbers is faster on the CPU, because you don't have the latency of transferring to the GPU.
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2018-06-18T12:43:52Z jdz: I bet Haskell is good enough, 64-bits should be enough for everyone.
2018-06-18T12:43:55Z xificurC: is this still #lisp?
2018-06-18T12:44:18Z jdz: xificurC: no, this is #haskel-bashing
2018-06-18T12:44:24Z jackdaniel: xificurC: I have my doubts, but not sure who should take a kick, it seems like a rebellion ;-)
2018-06-18T12:44:54Z jackdaniel: I guess I'll pretend I'm not around ;p
2018-06-18T12:44:57Z jdz: We just proved the superiority of Common Lisp over Haskell, surely we can have a little afterparty, right?
2018-06-18T12:45:18Z varjag: jdz: i tried running his haskell code in online repl, it dies with out-of-memory
2018-06-18T12:45:18Z jackdaniel: I wasn't convinced by these "proofs" to be honest
2018-06-18T12:45:23Z xificurC: sure, in #lispafterparty
2018-06-18T12:45:25Z jackdaniel: especially that the metodology was flawed
2018-06-18T12:45:38Z xificurC: there was methodology?
2018-06-18T12:45:41Z jmercouris: we cannot compare the "speed" of two languages
2018-06-18T12:45:48Z shrdlu68: There has been a renewed interest in comparing languages recently, what with all the new languages being invented, and all the propaganda being thrown around.
2018-06-18T12:45:57Z jmercouris: we can only compare the specific implementation of a problem in language A and language B
2018-06-18T12:46:02Z jdz: It never was a bout speed, guys, but about safety.
2018-06-18T12:46:04Z jmercouris: sometimes A may be faster than B, and vice versa
2018-06-18T12:46:07Z White_Flame: shrdlu68: and greenspun's rule still reigns
2018-06-18T12:46:29Z jackdaniel: there is no such thing as language speed. quality of produced code may be measured, or at the very last – language "optimization"-friendliness
2018-06-18T12:46:42Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: YES! Thank you! this is what I was trying to get at the other day
2018-06-18T12:46:53Z jmercouris: Nobody could understand what I was trying to say though
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2018-06-18T12:47:13Z shrdlu68: beach has been saying that for a long time.
2018-06-18T12:47:25Z jmercouris: Yes
2018-06-18T12:47:39Z jmercouris: I was even having a conversation with beach at the time where I could not explain it to him
2018-06-18T12:47:50Z jmercouris: even though he is the one who introduced this idea to me
2018-06-18T12:47:55Z jdz: This what it was all about: <kuribas> the thing is, I don't find giving up safety for performance a good option.
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2018-06-18T12:48:21Z jdz: He was having Haskell in mind, but it turned out to be the other way around.
2018-06-18T12:48:36Z jmercouris: it wasn't for a lack of his comprehension or anything, I just couldn't put the thoughts into words, in that context
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2018-06-18T12:53:29Z _death: typical development in lisp is working with a living system.. you define stuff, test in the repl, redefine, inspect objects, etc.  typical development in haskell is write, compile, rinse, repeat.. each time setup the whole thing from scratch
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2018-06-18T12:54:24Z _death: or is there someone using ghci for actual development?..
2018-06-18T12:56:06Z White_Flame: and lisp refactoring teaches you to keep your abstractions well-defined so you can adjust things later.  I wonder how difficult it is to refactor the types in a haskell program
2018-06-18T12:56:40Z jdz: It's easy: just fix all the places where compiler complains.
2018-06-18T12:56:40Z White_Flame: though likely a similar style exists, to keep it more adjustable
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2018-06-18T13:08:59Z runixy: Can I specify some constraints on the type of the parameters for a function, such as informing the compiler that the parameters are NUMBER? See lines 75 to 113 (including error message) on https://paste.ofcode.org/yzZkqCsTshQZtJ5gKwKddM as I would like to avoid having to use the macro for defining the function.
2018-06-18T13:09:37Z beach: runixy: Yes.
2018-06-18T13:09:43Z beach: clhs declare
2018-06-18T13:09:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm
2018-06-18T13:14:43Z beach: runixy: I am not sure I understand what you are trying to do and I am not sure I understand why wall-builder-not-working is not working.
2018-06-18T13:18:25Z beach: runixy: Let's see...
2018-06-18T13:19:11Z beach: runixy: You are calling the macro BUILD-CONSTRAINTS, passing it four symbols.
2018-06-18T13:19:16Z xificurC: I'm pretty sure runixy is going through this https://chriskohlhepp.wordpress.com/reasoning-systems/specification-driven-programming-in-common-lisp/
2018-06-18T13:20:29Z xificurC: also pretty sure the paste doesn't include the actual call that errored out
2018-06-18T13:20:43Z xificurC: i.e. what was typed into sly
2018-06-18T13:20:44Z runixy: yes, and then I don't understand why I/we would have to make a macro to build the wall-builder function
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2018-06-18T13:20:50Z beach: runixy: Then in BUILD-CONSTRAINTS you try to subtract 1 from wall-height.
2018-06-18T13:21:03Z beach: I.e., you are trying to subtract 1 from a symbol.
2018-06-18T13:21:07Z runixy: ye
2018-06-18T13:21:45Z xificurC: runixy: please show what did you type into the REPL (sly)
2018-06-18T13:22:03Z runixy: I'm not sure how to properly declare rows a number
2018-06-18T13:22:30Z xificurC: or did the function not compile
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2018-06-18T13:22:47Z xificurC: you don't have to declare anything
2018-06-18T13:22:48Z beach: runixy: Declaring it won't work.
2018-06-18T13:23:02Z xificurC: you just passed it something else than a number at some spot
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2018-06-18T13:23:23Z beach: runixy: If you declared it to be a number you would lie to the compiler, because you are passing a symbol, not a number.
2018-06-18T13:23:33Z runixy: I'm just loading the file with c-k c-l
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2018-06-18T13:24:10Z beach: runixy: What is build-constraints supposed to do?
2018-06-18T13:24:15Z beach: Does it have side effects?
2018-06-18T13:24:19Z runixy: and my file is what I pasted.
2018-06-18T13:24:43Z beach: runixy: There seem to be many problems with your code.
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2018-06-18T13:26:13Z beach: runixy: Can you please tell us whether build-constraints is supposed to have any side effects.  It looks to me like it is just supposed to return some code.  Right?
2018-06-18T13:26:26Z runixy: ye, just returning code
2018-06-18T13:26:42Z beach: runixy: So in (progn (build-constraints ...) ...)
2018-06-18T13:26:46Z runixy: because the code has to be executed in a proper screamer context
2018-06-18T13:26:51Z beach: You thow that code away.
2018-06-18T13:26:54Z beach: throw.
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2018-06-18T13:27:21Z beach: runixy: Do you know how PROGN works?
2018-06-18T13:27:27Z beach: clhs progn
2018-06-18T13:27:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm
2018-06-18T13:28:17Z runixy: ye, evaluates the form one by one
2018-06-18T13:28:29Z beach: And then returns the value of the last one.
2018-06-18T13:28:36Z beach: Discarding the values of the others.
2018-06-18T13:29:19Z beach: So if BUILD-CONSTRAINTS returns something useful without having any side effects, in this context, the useful thing is thrown away.
2018-06-18T13:29:35Z xificurC: beach: build-constraints returns (progn (setf ...) (setf ...)) as seen from his paste
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2018-06-18T13:29:53Z xificurC: beach: so actually all it does is side effects
2018-06-18T13:30:12Z xificurC: he is going through the blog post I linked and trying out the pieces
2018-06-18T13:30:16Z beach: xificurC: If the returned code where to be evaluated, yes.
2018-06-18T13:30:17Z runixy: it is collecting the terms/forms, so it should return them all
2018-06-18T13:30:57Z xificurC: beach: well it's a macro that returns code, why would it not get evaluated?
2018-06-18T13:31:02Z runixy: ye, and then I don't understand why he had to wrap the wall-builder function in a macro
2018-06-18T13:31:43Z beach: xificurC: Right, my bad.  I misunderstood the code.
2018-06-18T13:31:48Z runixy: the macros are used to provide forms that are being evaluated in wall-builder-builder
2018-06-18T13:33:18Z xificurC: runixy: this is explained in the blog post. The guy writes out a function for 2x2 and one for 3x3. Then he proceeds to write a macro which takes the dimensions as parameters and produces the boilerplate code automatically
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2018-06-18T13:34:50Z xificurC: runixy: what might be tripping you is that the macro always generates (defun wall-builder ...) which isn't really correct. It should generate a different function for each input, e.g. wall-builder-2x2, wall-builder-4x20, ... The author just didn't bother to write this out explicitly
2018-06-18T13:34:53Z runixy: ye, but couldn't wall-builder be a function taking in the parameters directly (if I could specify types)
2018-06-18T13:35:31Z beach: runixy: I think you will understand if you macroexpand the call to wall-builder-builder.
2018-06-18T13:35:32Z xificurC: runixy: it's not about types, forget types. It's about having a solver for a 2x2 grid, a solver for a 20x20 grid, whatever one wants
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2018-06-18T13:36:34Z xificurC: runixy: he wrote out the 3x3 case, did you see how much more boilerplate code that was? Now he wrote a macro so if he needs a 4x4 solver the macro will generate a solver for it. It should be named wall-builder-4x4 though, not overwriting any previous wall-builder
2018-06-18T13:37:14Z runixy: I have to redefine wall-builder (by using wall-builder-builder) for different parameters, but I was curious if that can be circumvented and just define a function that then evaluates the other macros at run-time.
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2018-06-18T13:37:49Z makomo: i'm gonna guess, is this chris kohlhepp's blog?
2018-06-18T13:38:07Z xificurC: makomo: yes, I linked it a while ago
2018-06-18T13:38:10Z makomo: awww yeah
2018-06-18T13:38:16Z beach: runixy: If you did that, you would see that the BUILD-CONSTRAINTS form has numbers in it.
2018-06-18T13:38:17Z makomo: those posts are awesome :-D
2018-06-18T13:38:40Z makomo: i've read them awhile back. i really like his stuff
2018-06-18T13:38:55Z beach: runixy: It can't be done because the function would work at run time.
2018-06-18T13:39:00Z xificurC: runixy: macros like build-constraints are *not* evaluated at runtime in your case
2018-06-18T13:39:05Z beach: runixy: Whereas the macro works at compile time.
2018-06-18T13:39:05Z runixy: I don't get why doing a macro to define a function is able to look past type issues, when just defining the function is not? I guess that is my real question
2018-06-18T13:39:21Z beach: runixy: Did you macroexpand?
2018-06-18T13:39:40Z beach: runixy: (macroexpand-1 '(wall-builder-builder :wall-height ....))
2018-06-18T13:39:57Z runixy: no, I will look into that - went the type declaration way instead
2018-06-18T13:39:57Z beach: runixy: If you do that, what do you see in the call to build-constraints?
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2018-06-18T13:40:34Z beach: If you declare the type to be number, then you will like to the compiler because you are passing it symbols, not numbers.
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2018-06-18T13:40:43Z beach: lie to the compiler.
2018-06-18T13:40:46Z beach: Not like
2018-06-18T13:41:38Z beach: runixy: Could you please do the macro expansion?  I think then you would understand.
2018-06-18T13:42:16Z xificurC: runixy: I think you need to look into how macros work and when they are expanded
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2018-06-18T13:42:42Z xificurC: how does one evaluate code here in IRC?
2018-06-18T13:42:55Z beach: One doesn't.
2018-06-18T13:43:03Z xificurC: :(
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2018-06-18T13:44:39Z xificurC: (defmacro add-one (x) `(+ ,x 1))  (let ((n 1)) (add-one n))    . this is a simplified version of his issue, correct beach?
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2018-06-18T13:45:31Z beach: That one works.
2018-06-18T13:45:53Z makomo: how did he call wall-builder-not-working?
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2018-06-18T13:46:13Z beach: makomo: It won't matter because it won't compile.
2018-06-18T13:46:38Z beach: makomo: When the compiler sees the call to build-constraints, it will macroexpand it.
2018-06-18T13:46:52Z makomo: oh mhm, i have to read the whole thing
2018-06-18T13:46:54Z beach: makomo: And the arguments to that call are symbols.
2018-06-18T13:47:09Z beach: Whereas the macro build-constraints expects numbers.
2018-06-18T13:47:23Z makomo: yup, so the numbers have to be constants right?
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2018-06-18T13:47:54Z xificurC: beach: my bad
2018-06-18T13:48:14Z beach: makomo: Macros don't evaluate their parameters, so you can't pass it a symbol expecting its value to be used.
2018-06-18T13:48:45Z makomo: beach: yes, of course. which means that the macro expects to work with constants, correct?
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2018-06-18T13:49:05Z makomo: since its using the numbers at macroexpansion-time
2018-06-18T13:49:12Z makomo: it's*
2018-06-18T13:49:20Z beach: makomo: That's not the right terminology.  It expects its parameters to be numbers.
2018-06-18T13:49:42Z makomo: i mean, constant numbers :-D
2018-06-18T13:49:47Z makomo: the two properties are orthogonal, right?
2018-06-18T13:50:23Z beach: Literal numbers would be right, I think.
2018-06-18T13:50:35Z makomo: ah
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2018-06-18T13:51:28Z makomo: beach: remember our talk yesterday about &rest in defgeneric and &key in defmethod?
2018-06-18T13:51:31Z makomo: clhs 7.6.4
2018-06-18T13:51:31Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2018-06-18T13:51:57Z beach: xificurC: More like (defmacro add-one (x) (1+ x)) and then the difference between (add-one 234) and (let ((n 234)) (add-one n))
2018-06-18T13:52:05Z beach: makomo: Yes.
2018-06-18T13:52:06Z makomo: the sentence we found, isn't it only applicable when case 4 is active?
2018-06-18T13:52:15Z makomo: specifically the last sentence of case 4
2018-06-18T13:52:37Z makomo: since my defgeneric has no &key parameters, why would case 4 be applicable at all
2018-06-18T13:52:39Z xificurC: beach: yes, using the value at compile time
2018-06-18T13:52:55Z beach: makomo: I guess I missed that.
2018-06-18T13:53:24Z makomo: yup, same. so then what would be the reason for the method accept invalid keyword arguments?
2018-06-18T13:53:30Z makomo: accepting*
2018-06-18T13:53:35Z beach: makomo: No wait...
2018-06-18T13:53:50Z beach: makomo: Your defgeneric had &rest but not &key?
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2018-06-18T13:54:02Z makomo: yes, it's weird, but i'm only testing corner cases
2018-06-18T13:54:24Z makomo: i mean, i don't know whether to interpret that last sentence in case 4 as something that's applicable only when case 4 applies, or as a general fact (with or without case 4)
2018-06-18T13:54:26Z beach: Oh, yes, I see.
2018-06-18T13:55:04Z makomo: so i have (defgeneric hello (a b &rest c)) and (defmethod hello (a b &key c)). then i call (hello 1 2 :d 100)
2018-06-18T13:55:08Z beach: I think case 4 is all about &key being mentioned in the generic function lambda list.
2018-06-18T13:55:13Z makomo: no error is signalled for the invalid keyword "d"
2018-06-18T13:55:19Z beach: Right.
2018-06-18T13:55:29Z makomo: mhm, that's what i would think too
2018-06-18T13:55:47Z xificurC: runixy: try (defmacro what-am-i-at-compile-time (x) (format t "type ~a with value ~a~%" (type-of x) x))  and then (what-am-i-at-compile-time 100) and (let ((x 100)) (what-am-i-at-compile-time x))
2018-06-18T13:56:17Z xificurC: and finally (what-am-i-at-compile-time x)
2018-06-18T13:56:38Z beach: makomo: Do we know that an implementation is obliged to signal an error in such a situation?
2018-06-18T13:56:55Z makomo: beach: not quite :-)
2018-06-18T13:57:00Z makomo: haven't found it anywhere
2018-06-18T13:57:12Z makomo: but i also haven't found anything saying that it's legal either
2018-06-18T13:57:34Z makomo: and besides, a normal function would signal an error for that
2018-06-18T13:57:40Z beach: clhs 3.5.1.4
2018-06-18T13:57:40Z specbot: Unrecognized Keyword Arguments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ead.htm
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2018-06-18T13:58:34Z makomo: hmm, i don't see anything new
2018-06-18T13:59:12Z beach: Yeah and I think that section is wrong actually.
2018-06-18T13:59:19Z makomo: oh?
2018-06-18T14:00:10Z beach: (defun f (&rest x) x)
2018-06-18T14:00:15Z beach: (f :hello 234)
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2018-06-18T14:00:45Z beach: According to 3.5.1.4, it should signal an error.
2018-06-18T14:02:59Z beach: makomo: Anyway, are you using SBCL?
2018-06-18T14:03:01Z makomo: beach: hmm, but are those even treated as keyword arguments in that case?
2018-06-18T14:03:12Z makomo: since you didn't specify &key
2018-06-18T14:03:30Z beach: Yeah, OK.  Good point.
2018-06-18T14:03:49Z makomo: beach: i'm using sbcl, but i'm trying to figure out the standard behavior
2018-06-18T14:04:06Z beach: I was going to suggest asking the maintainers of SBCL.
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2018-06-18T14:04:25Z beach: They are usually very knowledgeable when it comes to the standard.
2018-06-18T14:04:33Z makomo: ah, i guess that's not a bad idea
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2018-06-18T14:25:41Z _death: makomo: the generic function takes any arguments (&rest), so there's no mismatch..
2018-06-18T14:26:31Z beach: _death: Can you point to the relevant Common Lisp HyperSpec section that supports that claim?
2018-06-18T14:27:51Z makomo: _death: ^ :-)
2018-06-18T14:28:06Z _death: what claim exactly
2018-06-18T14:28:41Z makomo: _death: the fact that the method isn't required to do any checking of its own
2018-06-18T14:28:48Z makomo: i.e. that the checking from the generic function is enough for the call
2018-06-18T14:28:57Z beach: That if the generic function lambda list mentions &rest but not &key, then there is never any argument mismatch, even when a key is passed to a method that does not accept it.
2018-06-18T14:29:08Z _death: the gf's and method's lambda list are congruent (rule 3)
2018-06-18T14:29:18Z _death: the method is applicable given the call shown
2018-06-18T14:29:28Z _death: the gf doesn't specify &key, but &rest
2018-06-18T14:30:37Z makomo: and why doesn't the method signal an error for passing an invalid keyword?
2018-06-18T14:31:00Z makomo: if the answer is "because only the generic function checks the argument list, not the methods", then where is this said in the standard?
2018-06-18T14:31:07Z _death: who says there is an invalid keyword passed to it?
2018-06-18T14:31:20Z makomo: well that was my original question :-)
2018-06-18T14:31:29Z _death: the generic function takes &rest, so there are no keywords
2018-06-18T14:31:42Z makomo: (defgeneric test (a b &rest c)) (defmethod test (a b &key c)) (test 1 2 :d 100)
2018-06-18T14:31:59Z makomo: this is valid, why? the method clearly takes only the keyword argument :c. why is :d allowed?
2018-06-18T14:33:21Z _death: :d is allowed because you're not calling a method
2018-06-18T14:33:46Z _death: you are calling a generic function.. which takes a &rest parameter
2018-06-18T14:33:55Z makomo: i.e. you're calling the generic function, and only it does the validation of the arguments
2018-06-18T14:34:10Z makomo: right, but where is this specified in the standard?
2018-06-18T14:34:32Z makomo: the fact that only the generic function does validation
2018-06-18T14:34:32Z warweasle: Is there a library for persistent amortizing?
2018-06-18T14:34:37Z _death: there is no validation (of keyword arguments) here
2018-06-18T14:35:00Z _death: if it took &key, then there'd be validation.. perhaps also when the method is called
2018-06-18T14:35:15Z beach: No.
2018-06-18T14:35:18Z Inline: c = :c = (:d 100) ?
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2018-06-18T14:35:28Z beach: _death: That case is clearly specified not to signal an error.
2018-06-18T14:35:42Z makomo: afk, i'll be back later in the day and i'll read the logs
2018-06-18T14:35:50Z beach: _death: Like makomo, I don't buy your argument.  You may be right, of course, but I don't see it.
2018-06-18T14:36:08Z beach: Inline: Is there a question there?
2018-06-18T14:36:43Z Inline: no
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2018-06-18T14:37:45Z Inline: beach: i have an offline question related to wxmaxima, maxima therein is loosing it's socket somehow, when i start maxima from the console everything works as expected....
2018-06-18T14:39:27Z beach: Maybe you should try Climaxima instead.
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2018-06-18T14:54:38Z Inline: welp, i suppose i have to git pull it all again....
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2018-06-18T15:04:42Z jackdaniel: I don't remember details, but we were troubleshooting this problem with someone using maxima
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2018-06-18T15:05:03Z jackdaniel: let me see in the ecl's closed issues (it wasn't ecl's issue after all I think)
2018-06-18T15:05:46Z jackdaniel: Inline: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/326
2018-06-18T15:06:05Z jackdaniel: and this: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/407
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2018-06-18T15:06:38Z jackdaniel: see last comment of the second one, maybe it will be helpful
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2018-06-18T15:51:09Z puchacz: hi, how to correctly read an unknown XML from file pls? the first problem is that it can have unknown encoding, and I think usually the header says something like: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no"?>
2018-06-18T15:51:16Z puchacz: in which case I should use :utf-8
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2018-06-18T15:52:29Z puchacz: maybe this one handles nuances like this: (cxml:parse-file "example.xml" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))
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2018-06-18T16:40:20Z pjb: Ukari: actually, the way to write local constants, is to write literals.  Ie. anything that's quoted or self-evaluating is for all intents and purposes the same as a constant variable defined with defconstant.
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2018-06-18T16:41:24Z pjb: Ukari: the only meaning of defconstant is that the compiler is allowed to inline (possibly multiple copies) of the value.  It doesn't mean that the object is immutable per se (but it should be considered immutable, because if you try to mutate it, you can get starnge results, such as crashes, nasal daemons, or only one copy being mutated!
2018-06-18T16:41:49Z pjb: Which is exactly the same with quoted literals and other self-evaluating literals!
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2018-06-18T16:47:16Z Ukari: how to use literals as a immutable let ?
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2018-06-18T16:48:27Z pjb: Ukari: (+ 48 4)   instead of  (let ((zero 48)) (+ zero 4))
2018-06-18T16:49:36Z pjb: Ukari: also, notice how in  (let ((zero 48)) (+ zero 4)) it doesn't matter whether zero is a constant variable or not: we can see it LEXICALLY that we are not mutating the bingin, and the compiler knows it too, so it can eliminate the variable and inline the value.
2018-06-18T16:49:41Z pjb: and they do this!
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2018-06-18T16:50:45Z pjb: Try it: (declaim (optimize (space 3) (speed 3))) (disassemble (compile nil (lambda (d)  (let ((zero 48)) (+ zero d)))))
2018-06-18T16:50:46Z Ukari: if use a (funcall return-48) instead of 48, literals way can't use (funcall return-48)'s value twice if I don't wan't funcall return-48 twice
2018-06-18T16:51:32Z pjb: Then it's not a literal.
2018-06-18T16:51:39Z Ukari: well..
2018-06-18T16:51:44Z pjb: I mean, it cannot be bound to a constant variables.
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2018-06-18T16:52:01Z pjb: Constant variable values must be known at compilation time, so they may be inlined by the compiler.
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2018-06-18T16:52:30Z pjb: Ukari: Look, the point is that defconstant is a very strange and very specific operator that just doesn't do what you think it does.
2018-06-18T16:52:55Z pjb: Already, the name "constant VARIABLES" should give you a hint you're in Alice Wonderland territory.
2018-06-18T16:53:38Z Bike: i think ukari was using amore lay meaning of constant as "not modifiable"
2018-06-18T16:53:48Z pjb: Ukari: so lexically, things are know at compilation time, or they don't qualify for "lexical".
2018-06-18T16:53:49Z Bike: including for example values that don't exist at compile time
2018-06-18T16:54:01Z Bike: so the annotation as "constant" would just forbid setf and such.
2018-06-18T16:54:06Z pjb: the value returned by (function return-42)  is not a lexical value, because it cannot be known by the compiler.
2018-06-18T16:54:49Z pjb: (unless some very specific cases, but few CL compilers implement the global analysis that would allow them to know).
2018-06-18T16:55:42Z pjb: Ukari: perhaps you would want to consider a macro or a compiler-macro to deal with those forms, instead of just a binding?
2018-06-18T16:57:34Z Ukari: maybe it is a mistake for me to use defconstant as a compare target to what i need, what i need is not literal constant because it can't assign to some stuff in runtime
2018-06-18T16:58:30Z Ukari: what i need is a immutable let, it could assign once, assign to some stuff in the runtime, then it couldn't change anymore
2018-06-18T16:59:50Z pjb: Ukari: you're wrong.
2018-06-18T17:00:02Z pjb: LET is a lexical binding operator.  It doesn't work in time.  It works in space.
2018-06-18T17:00:11Z pjb: Haven't you studied relativity in school?
2018-06-18T17:00:22Z pjb: What do people learn nowadays?
2018-06-18T17:00:45Z pjb: There no "anymore" in the lexical scope.
2018-06-18T17:00:54Z pjb: There are inside or outside of the scope.
2018-06-18T17:01:09Z Bike: i don't think it's hard to imagine a let binding that would have setqs of the variable to be a compiler warning or error, regardless of one's understanding of physics.
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2018-06-18T17:01:45Z pjb: Either you write a assignment inside the scope, or you don't.  And this is written textually, in space, so it is known of all eternity whether you did it or not.
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2018-06-18T17:02:30Z pjb: Bike: sure, but then you want to change the compiler. As a user, you can do that with writing your own IMMUTABLE-LET macro and do the code walking to check.
2018-06-18T17:02:40Z pjb: As I said above, you should consider a macro.
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2018-06-18T17:04:50Z Ukari: though let is analysis by compile in space, but the assignment between stuff to it is actually happens in runtime
2018-06-18T17:05:12Z pierpal: or just use a symbol-macrolet
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2018-06-18T17:07:56Z pierpal: ukary: no. it happens in space. that's the point of lexical vs dynamic
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2018-06-18T17:09:30Z Ukari: no, (let ((x 3))), you won't know the value 3 what x assigns to in compile time
2018-06-18T17:10:04Z Ukari: how could you know that, impossible
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2018-06-18T17:12:27Z Bike: well, in that particular case 3 is a literal, so it's actually pretty obvious.
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2018-06-18T17:14:51Z phoe: you won't know, but the compiler knows
2018-06-18T17:15:01Z mfiano: I think you'll be fascinated by how compilers work when you understand the basics.
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2018-06-18T17:15:14Z phoe: it's the compiler's duty to turn that information into something useful, not yours
2018-06-18T17:16:15Z pjb: Ukari: You can do something like: https://pastebin.com/RALN9tye
2018-06-18T17:16:40Z Ukari: the compiler knows the reference or address or pointer, but not know the value store in address
2018-06-18T17:16:41Z pjb: This gives you a run-time check.  Perhaps sbcl could also validate it at compilation time.
2018-06-18T17:17:18Z Bike: yeah it does. it's 3
2018-06-18T17:17:28Z beach: Ukari: In this case, the compiler "knows" that the value of the variable is 3.
2018-06-18T17:17:34Z pierpal: uh?
2018-06-18T17:17:48Z beach: Ukari: What makes you think that the compiler does not keep this information?
2018-06-18T17:18:19Z Ukari: because it is not a compiler's duty
2018-06-18T17:18:48Z _death: there may not even be an address..
2018-06-18T17:19:25Z beach: Ukari: I suggest you read the book by Steven Muchnick.
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2018-06-18T17:20:23Z beach: Ukari: There is, for example, a compiler optimization technique called "constant propagation" that takes this information and replaces all references to the variable by the literal.
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2018-06-18T17:21:23Z beach: Speaking of which, I have always claimed that even application programmers should know about compiler design.  I have seen so many application programmers write silly code because they have an incorrect model of what the compiler does.
2018-06-18T17:21:45Z Bike: memories of C...
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2018-06-18T17:22:30Z Bike: at least some basics.
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2018-06-18T17:22:43Z Bike: though "the compiler never knows about or does any optimizations ever" is a new attitude for me
2018-06-18T17:22:55Z Bike: i think forth is like that sometimes...?
2018-06-18T17:25:07Z beach: Ukari: So what is the duty of the compiler according to you?
2018-06-18T17:25:19Z Ukari: If i remember correctly, in python, if there is a array a = [1, 2, 3, 3]. use id(a[2]) and id(a[3]), you could find it returns a same address where stores the only one 3
2018-06-18T17:25:45Z makomo: beach: i agree. in general, regarding usage of any interface, i think that programmers should be aware of how the underlying implementation works, or at least have an idea how it works
2018-06-18T17:26:39Z mfiano: arrays in python are linked lists, for starters
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2018-06-18T17:27:01Z makomo: beach: for me, using an abstraction shouldn't mean that you're ignorant about the details. it should mean that you half-know how it works, but don't assume anything, i.e. you're intentionally avoiding relying on anything that's implementation-defined
2018-06-18T17:27:06Z mfiano: and now we're back to constant folding literals in lisp
2018-06-18T17:27:06Z beach: mfiano: Not even trees?  Wow!
2018-06-18T17:27:24Z Ukari: mfiano, you didn't understand what i want to say in my example
2018-06-18T17:27:26Z makomo: i don't know if that makes sense, but there's a subtle difference in there for me
2018-06-18T17:27:35Z Bike: You want to say that the two array elements are aliased?
2018-06-18T17:27:37Z makomo: which i think is essential
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2018-06-18T17:27:54Z makomo: and makes you a better programmer in the end
2018-06-18T17:28:10Z Bike: fuck, id is an address-of function. that's a weird builtin for a language like python to have
2018-06-18T17:28:21Z beach: makomo: I think I understand. The "silly code" I was referring to typically avoided abstractions because of some idea that the compiler would generate slower code then.
2018-06-18T17:28:23Z Ukari: 3 could be a reference which actually reffer to a address where stores 3
2018-06-18T17:28:40Z Bike: Sure?
2018-06-18T17:28:45Z Bike: The value's still going to be 3 though.
2018-06-18T17:28:53Z Ukari: if you change the value in the address in runtime, it won't be 3 in runtime
2018-06-18T17:28:57Z beach: Ukari: I am still interested in what the duty of the compiler is according to you?
2018-06-18T17:28:58Z makomo: beach: ah i see. i guess it's not directly related, but i think it's an interesting thought/approach anyway
2018-06-18T17:28:58Z Bike: whether it's a reference or whatever doesn't matter to the basic semantics.
2018-06-18T17:29:05Z drdo: You don't understand what's going on, so don't even bother
2018-06-18T17:29:12Z drdo: Write the nice code and profile if needed
2018-06-18T17:29:53Z drdo: It's not only the compiler you have to worry about, there's a whole tower of stuff
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2018-06-18T17:29:58Z makomo: mfiano: are they really linked lists? i don't think so
2018-06-18T17:30:13Z makomo: aren't python's arrays just "dynamic arrays", i.e. like C++'s std::vector
2018-06-18T17:30:22Z Bike: is it relevant?
2018-06-18T17:30:24Z makomo: or CL's adjustable arrays/vectors
2018-06-18T17:30:24Z Ukari: in let example, complier gives address and no need to know what stores in address because what stores in address is not sure in runtime
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2018-06-18T17:30:57Z Bike: Ukari: Lisp doesn't have some weird semantics where you can redefine what 3 is at runtime. if you write (let ((x 3)) ...) x will be 3, as is intuitively obvious.
2018-06-18T17:30:57Z beach: Ukari: You definitely need to read up on compiler technology.
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2018-06-18T17:31:59Z pierpal: even just using common sense would work too
2018-06-18T17:33:09Z mfiano: I'm sorry for spreading misinformation...I was completely wrong. It's lists that are implemented as arrays, rather than linked lists.
2018-06-18T17:33:11Z beach: I am intrigued by this idea that the compiler should not optimize code even if it can because it is not its "duty".
2018-06-18T17:33:21Z Ukari: well, Bike, but the optimization technique trick only happens in some case can't prove that all stuff's value which assign by let are certein in compile time
2018-06-18T17:33:38Z Ukari: are known in compile time
2018-06-18T17:33:59Z drdo: beach: Why is that even a reasonable idea?
2018-06-18T17:34:20Z beach: drdo: It isn't, according to me.  But Ukari seems to think it is.
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2018-06-18T17:36:05Z jackdaniel: it could be certainly useful for testing (being able to disable certain optimizations, so you can for instance examine output with only one optimization being active), but it is a different story
2018-06-18T17:36:27Z beach: Very different, yes.
2018-06-18T17:37:26Z makomo: mfiano: yup, and i hate the terminology
2018-06-18T17:37:46Z makomo: half of everything in this world would be much easier if people just used consistent and proper terminology
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2018-06-18T17:39:04Z jackdaniel: new ideas emerge from chaos, made-up terminology may spawn new ideas (by triggering metaphores) etc, don't discard the brilliance of mistakes
2018-06-18T17:39:25Z makomo: jackdaniel: good point i guess
2018-06-18T17:40:54Z pierpal: ok. I'm convinced. Let's start calling vectors lists! :)
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2018-06-18T17:42:00Z jackdaniel: I'm afraid you mistake mistakes with jokes ;-)
2018-06-18T17:42:07Z makomo: noooo :D
2018-06-18T17:42:22Z jackdaniel: and not knowing terminology with purposefuly skewing it ;p
2018-06-18T17:42:29Z makomo: in fact, alex stepanov, the designer of C++'s STL, named std::vector after CL's vector
2018-06-18T17:42:39Z makomo: he said that's one of the decisions he regrets
2018-06-18T17:42:51Z makomo: because it clashes with the notion of "vector" from mathematics
2018-06-18T17:43:05Z pjb: Bike: (setf *read-base* 2.) (defvar 3 101010)  (* 3 10) --> 84
2018-06-18T17:43:11Z Bike: Ukari: the compiler can often prove a lot.
2018-06-18T17:43:34Z Bike: pjb there is no point in telling me this and you know it.
2018-06-18T17:44:02Z Bike: it's obviously completely irrelevant to the actual point being discussed.
2018-06-18T17:44:03Z pjb: oh, at run-time. I skipped that.
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2018-06-18T17:45:04Z jackdaniel: non-optimizing compilers may be also useful for producing result code which is meant to be read by a human - as a first draft (and tweaked after that manually), but that's very rare I suppose
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2018-06-18T17:46:43Z pjb: Or also to get correct compilers that are easily provable or verifiable.
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2018-06-18T17:51:01Z makomo: beach: "When a generic function or any of its methods mentions &key in a lambda list, the specific set of keyword arguments accepted by the generic function varies according to the applicable methods."
2018-06-18T17:51:04Z makomo: clhs 7.6.5
2018-06-18T17:51:04Z specbot: Keyword Arguments in Generic Functions and Methods: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fe.htm
2018-06-18T17:51:19Z makomo: "When a generic function *OR* any of its methods ..."
2018-06-18T17:51:35Z makomo: "The set of keyword arguments accepted by the generic function for a particular call is the union of the keyword arguments accepted by all applicable methods and the keyword arguments mentioned after &key in the generic function definition"
2018-06-18T17:51:51Z makomo: wouldn't this imply that an error should be raised?
2018-06-18T17:52:01Z makomo: for my earlier example
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2018-06-18T17:52:42Z makomo: i had only one method and it was applicable.
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2018-06-18T17:54:41Z makomo: or would that whole section of the standard only apply in the case when we have a &key in our GF
2018-06-18T17:54:55Z makomo: but the first sentence does us "or" so...
2018-06-18T17:54:59Z makomo: use*
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2018-06-18T18:10:35Z littlelisper: i want to get the modification time of a file. is there any library for it? i googled but no help
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2018-06-18T18:13:27Z Xach: littlelisper: it is built-in to sbcl if that is what you use
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2018-06-18T18:13:55Z Xach: littlelisper: also, file-write-date might get you what you want, but also might not
2018-06-18T18:13:57Z littlelisper: Xach: how to? yes i use sbcl
2018-06-18T18:14:27Z Xach: littlelisper: sb-posix:stat plus sb-posix:stat-mtime
2018-06-18T18:15:14Z littlelisper: thanks Xach. and btw i just installed slime. its AWESOME
2018-06-18T18:15:46Z Xach: slime is pretty handy
2018-06-18T18:15:52Z Xach: i miss it whenever i can't use it
2018-06-18T18:16:22Z littlelisper: its the best env i have used till date
2018-06-18T18:16:29Z littlelisper: have you used smalltalk?
2018-06-18T18:16:33Z Xach: No
2018-06-18T18:17:10Z littlelisper: ah
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2018-06-18T18:21:28Z makomo: if i'm writing a DSL and want my macros to be indented nicely, what are some general tricks or ways to structure these macros to make this happen
2018-06-18T18:21:32Z makomo: for example, https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/818#818
2018-06-18T18:22:15Z makomo: "here" is where is how i want the process code to be aligned, "not-here" is what i don't want
2018-06-18T18:22:22Z makomo: s/is where//
2018-06-18T18:22:54Z makomo: defcomponent is my macro
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2018-06-18T18:24:47Z _death: I assume you're asking about the editor (emacs+slime) indenting it.. there's trivial-indent, but for more complicated macros you could patch cl-indent or otherwise write elisp code to do it
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2018-06-18T18:25:43Z _death: I think lisp machine environments had more elaborate support for indentation
2018-06-18T18:26:03Z makomo: _death: yeah, i'm assuming a conventional SLIME environment
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2018-06-18T18:34:38Z Xach: I add properties to common-lisp-indent-function sometimes.
2018-06-18T18:34:42Z Xach: e.g. (put 'common-lisp-indent-function ':implementation '(&lambda &body))
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2018-06-18T18:41:05Z littlelisper: can i do specific imports, i mean only the functions i want from a library?
2018-06-18T18:42:12Z _death: you can import specific _symbols_ from a _package_ using :import-from in your defpackage form
2018-06-18T18:42:15Z pjb: littlelisper: nope.
2018-06-18T18:42:26Z pjb: littlelisper: package manage symbols. Not functions.
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2018-06-18T18:42:51Z littlelisper: ok _death , pjb
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2018-06-18T18:44:22Z pjb: Notice that import-from let you import non-exported symbols.
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2018-06-18T18:45:15Z littlelisper: pjb:i needed functions
2018-06-18T18:45:28Z pjb: littlelisper: you will have to define your own function collection.
2018-06-18T18:45:42Z pjb: littlelisper: but you have to decide how you will reference functions.
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2018-06-18T18:46:03Z pjb: (defparameter *my-fun-package-foo* (list (function sin) (function car) (function cos)))
2018-06-18T18:46:29Z littlelisper: that means i can make my own package
2018-06-18T18:46:30Z pjb: (defparameter *my-fun-package-bar* (list (elt *my-fun-package-foo* 0) (elt *my-fun-package-foo* 2)))
2018-06-18T18:46:30Z littlelisper: ?
2018-06-18T18:46:48Z pjb: So you have "imported" the first and third function from *my-fun-package-foo* into  *my-fun-package-bar*.
2018-06-18T18:46:58Z pjb: No, your own kind of "package".
2018-06-18T18:47:15Z pjb: CL packages only deal with symbols, not with functions or variables or types or whatever the symbol is used to name.
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2018-06-18T18:48:13Z littlelisper: ah, i get it. so i can make my own collection
2018-06-18T18:48:25Z littlelisper: thats good
2018-06-18T18:48:28Z pjb: Yes. Notably this will allow you to collect anonymous functions.
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2018-06-18T18:49:09Z pjb: littlelisper: on the other hand, you may not care if the symbols used to name your function also name types or slots or variables or whatever.
2018-06-18T18:49:19Z pjb: When we use the CL package system, we just don't care.
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2018-06-18T18:49:56Z pjb: It also helps that global variables are special, therefore they are named with *stars-around*, and functions usually no. (even if some functions may be named with one or two postfix stars, like, f, f* and f**).
2018-06-18T18:50:12Z pjb: So in general when you export a function FOO, there's no variable bound to FOO.
2018-06-18T18:50:44Z pjb: On the other hand, it occurs often that you have both a type and a function using the same name: (typep (vector 1 2) 'vector) (typep (list 1 2) 'list) etc.
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2018-06-18T18:56:13Z _death: (defpackage "AI" (:use "COMMON-LISP") (:export "THINK")) (defpackage "PERSONALITIES" (:use "COMMON-LISP") (:import-from "AI" "THINK") (:export "THINKER")) (in-package "PERSONALITIES") (defun thinker () (loop (think)))
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2018-06-18T19:00:25Z warweasle: _death: I was hoping the singularity would hit today. I don't trust people to run things anymore.
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2018-06-18T19:03:10Z _death: warweasle: the last time I hoped for a singularity event was when I waited at some hospital queue (for a routine check) while the secretaries went superslow
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2018-06-18T19:04:08Z MichaelRaskin: _death: let me assure you that it is in fact possible to intentionally program AI to maintain unacceptably slow speed of the queue
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2018-06-18T19:06:46Z _death: I compile C++ code daily so have no doubts there ;)
2018-06-18T19:08:14Z aeth: If I compile a random program, I can tell you without looking at anything but htop if it's C++ or not.
2018-06-18T19:08:35Z aeth: just the CPU usage bars of htop at the top
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2018-06-18T19:13:42Z MichaelRaskin: A properly written makefile allows C compilation at 100% CPU load!
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2018-06-18T19:15:03Z aeth: The difference, then, is how long it takes.
2018-06-18T19:15:11Z _death: you need to use make -hal9000 though
2018-06-18T19:15:27Z MichaelRaskin: aeth: Linux kernel will supply enough C files
2018-06-18T19:16:09Z aeth: I'm not sure why people say SBCL takes a long time to compile or otherwise list its compile time as a disadvantage. (1) you only ever see that when you update QL and (2) it doesn't take very long, and this is even with only one core being used
2018-06-18T19:16:31Z _death: it can take arbitrarily long
2018-06-18T19:16:45Z Bike: it's not just when you update ql
2018-06-18T19:16:50Z aeth: Well it's generally either very quick or an infinite loop bug, but, yes, you can put anything in compile-time
2018-06-18T19:16:52Z Bike: what kind of weird attitude is that
2018-06-18T19:18:09Z aeth: Bike: you generally only see everything being compiled when you ql:update-all-dists afaik.
2018-06-18T19:19:12Z Bike: do you never rebuild your own software
2018-06-18T19:20:09Z _death: interpreters etc. may use COMPILE/EVAL (hence there's FASTEVAL and such)
2018-06-18T19:20:48Z aeth: Bike: The only thing that seems to be noticably slow in the entire compilation process is cl-sdl2 and that's probably because it uses autowrap
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2018-06-18T19:22:04Z Bike: the level of confidence you put into your assertions really doesn't match the evidence behind them
2018-06-18T19:22:14Z aeth: everything I've written has had negligible compile times
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2018-06-18T19:27:08Z aeth: Just under 3 seconds to build the largest thing that I've written in CL, which is about 7k lines of code, and it has one slow file because of an elaborate data structure.
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2018-06-18T19:28:39Z MichaelRaskin: I think full recompile of 60k lines of code took me way more than a minute.
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2018-06-18T19:30:59Z aeth: Let's say 2.8 and let's say it's directly related to LoC. 7k in 2.8 seconds is 2.5k a second. (/ 60d3 2.5d3) would then be 24 seconds. Actually sounds fairly plausible.
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2018-06-18T19:31:48Z aeth: My computer could be twice as fast as yours and/or your files could be more elaborate at compile time.
2018-06-18T19:32:14Z aeth: This is assuming it's roughly linearly based on LoC, which is oversimplifying.
2018-06-18T19:32:25Z sjl: ironclad takes 20s to compile/load for me, 25k loc according to cloc
2018-06-18T19:32:33Z aeth: Of course, my 7k LoC CL would probably be at least 30k LoC C++
2018-06-18T19:32:44Z sjl: that's the one I always notice taking a long time whenever I update my quicklisp dist
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2018-06-18T19:36:49Z scymtym_: i halved SBCL's ironclad compile time some time ago. and this weekend, stassats halved it again
2018-06-18T19:38:20Z aeth: 25kloc in 20 seconds would be 1.25 kloc/s.
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2018-06-18T19:38:39Z aeth: So... definitely possible to halve if your computer was of comparable speed to mine.
2018-06-18T19:38:53Z aeth: (And I have an outlier file that probably could compile faster)
2018-06-18T19:39:19Z aeth: Of course, kloc/s probably isn't the best measurement when you can do so much at compile time.
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2018-06-18T21:00:01Z varjagg: say you'd want to persistently store user/token pairs
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2018-06-18T21:00:10Z varjagg: what would you people use, in 2018
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2018-06-18T21:38:47Z pjb: varjagg: (setf (sexp-file-contents "user-token.db") '(("pjb" . "DEADFACE") ("varjagg" . "12345678")))
2018-06-18T21:38:59Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.file:sexp-file-contents
2018-06-18T21:42:04Z varjagg: pjb: thanks
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2018-06-18T21:42:27Z pjb: varjagg: the point is that it depends on what your operationnal constraints are.
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2018-06-18T21:42:35Z varjagg: i do something similar with cl-store now, but integrity is getting problematic
2018-06-18T21:42:37Z pjb: If you have half a billion users, this won't do.
2018-06-18T21:42:51Z varjagg: guess something transactional would be better
2018-06-18T21:43:13Z pjb: Perhaps using a postgres database?
2018-06-18T21:43:35Z varjagg: was thinking that, or sqlite
2018-06-18T21:43:43Z varjagg: but not sure which cl glue is up to date now
2018-06-18T21:43:52Z pjb: Again, depending on the number of processing acessing the data, the size of the data etc.
2018-06-18T21:43:57Z pjb: You are not telling us anything…
2018-06-18T21:44:12Z pjb: clsql, pg, etc.
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2018-06-18T21:45:05Z aeth: If you want reliability at scale, you should probably use postgresql.
2018-06-18T21:45:44Z aeth: When CL is popular enough, it might even add s-expressions to its storage next to JSON and XML and whatever else.
2018-06-18T21:46:19Z varjagg: har.
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2018-06-18T21:48:58Z aeth: PostgreSQL is definitely the way to go, though. Perhaps via postmodern. https://github.com/marijnh/Postmodern
2018-06-18T21:49:49Z akkad: there are pure lisp postgresql drivers out there
2018-06-18T21:49:55Z akkad: without falling back to cffi
2018-06-18T21:50:28Z aeth: mySQL is for performance or ubiquity, SQLite is if you want to embed a SQL database, and noSQLs (including random CL-based storage systems) aren't a good fit for the problem.
2018-06-18T21:50:42Z aeth: (And everything else costs money.)
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2018-06-18T21:51:39Z varjagg: it's really simple: add, delete, fetch all
2018-06-18T21:51:41Z varjagg: never update
2018-06-18T21:52:30Z varjagg: ok, i'll try postgres as it seems to be the consensus
2018-06-18T21:52:38Z varjagg: thanks for advice folks
2018-06-18T21:52:47Z varjagg: just need to figure out which db glue to go
2018-06-18T21:53:51Z varjagg: postmodern looks nice
2018-06-18T21:53:58Z varjagg: and not abandoned
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2018-06-18T22:14:32Z noobly: is anyone else having trouble accessing #emacs?
2018-06-18T22:16:16Z aeth: It's possible that they make it require nickname registration to prevent being hit by the spambot that floods freenode from time to time
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2018-06-18T22:34:18Z edgar-rft: noobly: #emacs was locked for users with non-registered nicks a while ago because too much spam.
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2018-06-18T23:11:04Z MoziM: is there an elisp function that can change all the values of a property in a nested plist? this is an example of what i'm trying to navigate through, i want to set all :background properties to "black" http://termbin.com/9j5o
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2018-06-18T23:13:23Z pjb: MoziM: like in CL, there's subst
2018-06-18T23:14:39Z pjb: But you need something more sophisticated.
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2018-06-18T23:41:11Z karlosz: i forgot slime has a handy profiler
2018-06-18T23:41:36Z karlosz: profiling the stuff i wrote yields
2018-06-18T23:41:42Z karlosz: https://paste.gnome.org/p5ukmikk7
2018-06-18T23:42:02Z karlosz: converting to SSA takes the most oamount of time, no surprise there
2018-06-18T23:42:33Z karlosz: the passes after that dont seem to contribute too much
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2018-06-18T23:44:59Z karlosz: it seems that converting to hir takes 2 out of the 10 seconds it takes to compile alexandria
2018-06-18T23:45:10Z karlosz: so source->hir conversion is 20%
2018-06-18T23:45:42Z karlosz: (that's what compile-cleavir is in the report above)
2018-06-18T23:46:03Z karlosz: errr wrong channel
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2018-06-19T03:52:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-19T05:09:20Z asarch: Are there virtual functions in CLOS?
2018-06-19T05:09:36Z mathZ: No
2018-06-19T05:09:44Z beach: asarch: What is a "virtual function"?
2018-06-19T05:10:46Z beach: asarch: And don't say "oh, like in C++" or something similar.
2018-06-19T05:11:05Z beach: asarch: I would like to know the specific feature you are looking for that you can't already do in CLOS.
2018-06-19T05:11:43Z asarch: I know, I know
2018-06-19T05:12:28Z asarch: For example: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577708
2018-06-19T05:12:43Z asarch: The way 'show()' does things
2018-06-19T05:13:10Z asarch: Line #23: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577708?ln=on&submit=Format+it%21
2018-06-19T05:13:42Z asarch: Just for my notes...
2018-06-19T05:13:46Z asarch hides
2018-06-19T05:16:24Z MoziM: pjb: :(
2018-06-19T05:17:52Z beach: asarch: Precisely that kind of precision I did not want.
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2018-06-19T05:20:21Z beach: asarch: Can you tell me what SHOW does that you think is not possible with CLOS?
2018-06-19T05:21:50Z beach: asarch: (defgeneric show (water)) (defmethod show ((water chocolate)) (format ...)) (defmethod show ((water coffee)) (format ...))
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2018-06-19T05:22:36Z beach: asarch: And can you tell me what a "virtual function" allows that a generic function does not allow?
2018-06-19T05:23:20Z mathZ: CLOS is much flexible
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2018-06-19T05:27:56Z asarch: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577709
2018-06-19T05:28:37Z asarch: As you already know, virtual functions actually helps C++ to do the polymorphism stuff
2018-06-19T05:28:51Z asarch: I just was wondering if this also was possible with CLOS
2018-06-19T05:29:13Z beach: That's a very different question.
2018-06-19T05:29:46Z beach: asarch: So the simple answer to your question is "no".  But that doesn't mean that you can't do the things you can do in C++.  It might mean that you don't need a special mechanism in CLOS whereas you do in C++.
2018-06-19T05:30:10Z beach: asarch: Which is why I wanted to know what particular characteristic of virtual functions you were looking for.
2018-06-19T05:30:26Z beach: asarch: I am guessing that no such special mechanism is required in CLOS.
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2018-06-19T05:31:50Z beach: For the record, I really dislike questions asked that way, i.e. "Does Common Lisp have the equivalent of the <mumble> feature in the <foo> language"?  It presumes that 1) everyone knows the <foo> language.  2) that if <mumble> does not exist in Common Lisp, then Common Lisp is somehow inferior.
2018-06-19T05:32:48Z beach: I much prefer "What mechanism in Common Lisp would you use to solve the following problem...".
2018-06-19T05:34:29Z asarch: Thank you
2018-06-19T05:34:32Z asarch: Thank you very much guys
2018-06-19T05:35:00Z beach: asarch: Your parameter name and documentation for the generic function SHOW is wrong.
2018-06-19T05:35:14Z asarch: I guess that is the easiest way to ask things: "Can you do overload functions in Lisp?"
2018-06-19T05:35:20Z beach: The second one, I mean.
2018-06-19T05:35:28Z beach: You should not have two defgeneric with the same name.
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2018-06-19T05:35:47Z beach: asarch: It is not called overloading.  It is called generic dispatch.
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2018-06-19T05:36:17Z beach: "overloading" is typically a compile-time mechanism, whereas "generic dispatch" is a run time mechanism, so much more powerful.
2018-06-19T05:37:53Z loke: asarch: I'm not sure you are using the C++ terminology correctly.
2018-06-19T05:38:04Z asarch: ?
2018-06-19T05:38:19Z beach: Yeah, that's not overloading.
2018-06-19T05:38:27Z loke: asarch: “overload” menas that you can have several functions with the same name. It does not imply that the choice of which implementation to call is actually chosen at runtime.
2018-06-19T05:39:08Z loke: asarch: In C++, if you have two functions: void foo(int) and void foo(char), that's overloading.
2018-06-19T05:39:31Z loke: asarch: But for the compiler to be able to choose which function to call, you have to know the type at runtime.
2018-06-19T05:39:33Z beach: asarch: Consider a method FOO in some language like Java or C++.  It has two signatures, each with one argument.  One signature has a DRINK argument and another has a COFFEE argument (COFFEE is a subclass of DRINK).  Now do a DRINK d = new(COFFEE) and then x.FOO(d).
2018-06-19T05:39:34Z loke: I mean at compile time.
2018-06-19T05:39:43Z beach: asarch: What method is called?
2018-06-19T05:39:49Z asarch: I thought: (defgeneric show (caffee) ()) and (defgeneric show (chocolate) ()) was actually the same :-(
2018-06-19T05:40:17Z beach: asarch: You should have a single defgeneric with a particular name.
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2018-06-19T05:41:04Z asarch: Ok
2018-06-19T05:41:06Z loke: asarch: Here's another terminology tip for you: In C++ a “method” is a function that is attached to a class. In CLOS, a “method” is some actual code that _may_ be run when a generic function is called. The method is attached to the generif cfunction,. not to a class.
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2018-06-19T05:41:50Z loke: asarch: Once you learn that single fact, the rest becomes much more clear.
2018-06-19T05:42:01Z beach: asarch: So which method would be called in my example?  The one with a DRINK argument, or the one with a COFFEE argument?
2018-06-19T05:42:38Z asarch: Warte bitte
2018-06-19T05:42:54Z beach: asarch: Oh, you are cheating by writing the code?
2018-06-19T05:43:02Z asarch: No, I'm not
2018-06-19T05:43:07Z beach: OK.
2018-06-19T05:43:18Z loke: Beach's statement sounded weird, until I replaced the word Drink with Beverage in my mind. :-)  (drink being both a noun and a verb made me confused. I'm stupid :-) )
2018-06-19T05:43:34Z beach: Oh, sorry.
2018-06-19T05:43:42Z beach: Yes, BEVERAGE would have been better.
2018-06-19T05:44:58Z loke: Tacka vet jag Svenska :-)
2018-06-19T05:45:02Z asarch: I was actually reading the pages of the CLOS book from the "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp" book from Sonja E. Keene
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2018-06-19T05:45:51Z beach: loke: The Swedish language is a mess (like most others), but in this case it would have allowed us to distinguish between the verb and the noun, yes.
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2018-06-19T05:50:02Z beach: asarch: You never answered my question.
2018-06-19T05:51:22Z asarch: Easy! It would call FOO(COFFEE), right?
2018-06-19T05:51:47Z asarch: I had another question for you but I cannot find it...
2018-06-19T05:52:00Z asarch: ...from that book
2018-06-19T05:53:34Z pillton: Oh, we might get to debate dot notation.
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2018-06-19T05:56:21Z beach: asarch: No, that's wrong.
2018-06-19T05:56:23Z beach: asarch: Most object-oriented language do a run-time dispatch only on X and not on the argument of the method.  Which method will be called in such a situation is resolved at compile time, so the answer is "wrong" in this case.  CLOS has multiple dispatch, so it does not have that problem.
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2018-06-19T05:58:50Z beach: It is interesting to me that there are lots and lots of programmers out there, using one of these languages professionally, to produce code that runs in applications that I might have to use, and who do not know this fact.
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2018-06-19T06:05:35Z asarch: I didn't know
2018-06-19T06:06:01Z asarch: All my OOP knowledge is class from C++ and Moose from Perl (the reason I am here)
2018-06-19T06:06:18Z beach: asarch: Are you still a student?
2018-06-19T06:06:39Z asarch: I even bought the "The Art of the Meta Object Protocol" book when I was learning to use the web development framework from Perl: Catalyst
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2018-06-19T06:07:39Z asarch: When I was working as an English teacher, all I wanted was a web application to keep all the related stuff for my students
2018-06-19T06:08:22Z asarch: That's why I learned Catalyst
2018-06-19T06:11:03Z beach: What is taught by a typical 5-year masters program (according to the Bologna system) is simply not enough to program professionally.  But industry does not know that.  So either we need to train industry to continue educating the programmers after they start working, or we need to define some kind of doctoral-level teaching program that should then be a requirement for working in industry.
2018-06-19T06:11:49Z beach: Stuff like this (overloading, single/multiple dispatch, etc) should be part of such a training program.
2018-06-19T06:12:59Z aeth: people have strong opinions about paradigms, and those strong opinions change with fashion, and the fashions change too quickly for programs to keep up
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2018-06-19T06:13:15Z mange: beach: Maybe I misunderstand you. Are you saying that people should get a PhD before programming in industry?
2018-06-19T06:14:23Z aeth: mange: I think what beach is saying is that masters degree programs teach the wrong thing
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2018-06-19T06:15:21Z beach: mange: It would not be a PhD, but some other doctoral-level program.  A PhD is a research-oriented program, so that might  not be well adapted to this situation.
2018-06-19T06:15:37Z pillton: A post-graduate course.
2018-06-19T06:16:11Z beach: Yeah, but my estimate is that it would take at least 2 years after a masters degree, so a doctoral-level program would be possible.
2018-06-19T06:17:35Z beach: And, of course, as a Lisper, I consider it totally unacceptable for anyone who will program professionally not to have knowledge about Common Lisp, CLOS, MOP, etc.  If for no other reason, to avoid re-inventing the wheel and being able to compare to what they are forced to use.
2018-06-19T06:17:36Z MichaelRaskin: I think the industry has recently discovered that what they want is trainable in one year (_instead_ of 5-year program). They don't care much for anything to work when they cannot define «working» code even postfactum
2018-06-19T06:18:06Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Yes, I am talking about what industry NEEDS, not what it WANTS.
2018-06-19T06:19:24Z beach: The big mistake in academia is to think that industry NEEDS what it WANTS, which results in our teaching programs being a disaster.
2018-06-19T06:19:52Z MichaelRaskin: I think no amount of training programmers will help industry that doesn't care about correctness in specs _and_ defaults to not letting programmers talk to users directly and regularly
2018-06-19T06:20:09Z beach: You might be right.
2018-06-19T06:20:17Z mange: Yeah, I think the bigger problems are in the the industry's priorities, rather than training.
2018-06-19T06:20:36Z asarch: In your example beach, what is x? An instance of FOO oder COFFEEE?
2018-06-19T06:21:06Z beach: asarch: Possibly neither.  x.foo(d)
2018-06-19T06:21:10Z beach: asarch: Not important here.
2018-06-19T06:21:32Z beach: asarch: x is an instance of the class that has two foo methods.
2018-06-19T06:22:44Z beach: asarch: x WOULD be used for dispatch (that's what single dispatch means).  But the point of the example is that the run-time value of d is NOT used for dispatch.
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2018-06-19T06:25:30Z aeth: I don't think formal education is what you would want for programming training. perhaps my experience is skewed, but that tends to be research-oriented.
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2018-06-19T06:27:53Z aeth: (at least at the higher levels)
2018-06-19T06:28:21Z shrdlu68: Programming is, at best, a craft.
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2018-06-19T06:30:42Z aeth: programming is like writing
2018-06-19T06:31:13Z shrdlu68: beach: The behavioral sciences call that the "scientist-practitioner" model.
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2018-06-19T06:31:43Z asarch: My formal education for C++ was: "Learning C++ in 21 days!" :'-(
2018-06-19T06:31:51Z jdz: Moloch does not care about people's feelings.
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2018-06-19T06:41:46Z xificurC: I have a masters from something called maths & management, does that disqualify me from being a good programmer? :(
2018-06-19T06:41:47Z beach: What current post-graduate programs teach is beside the point.  All I am saying is that people who program professionally often need way more knowledge than they get from a typical masters program.  And since people working in industry are largely ignorant about such knowledge (which is why the don't WANT what they NEED), academia would have to be the place to define such a doctoral-level teaching program.  Not that it would be easy,
2018-06-19T06:41:47Z beach: given that most university professors are ignorant too when it comes to that kind of knowledge.
2018-06-19T06:42:20Z beach: xificurC: I am not expressing myself very clearly, I can tell.
2018-06-19T06:42:35Z beach: xificurC: There are excellent programmers out there with absolutely no formal training.
2018-06-19T06:42:52Z beach: xificurC: So if you are one of them, you are definitely not disqualified.
2018-06-19T06:43:27Z asarch: Wow! What a very illustrative chat! Thank you guys!
2018-06-19T06:43:33Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
2018-06-19T06:43:39Z asarch: Everything is in my notes now
2018-06-19T06:43:48Z beach: But, and this is the point, most programmers receive their only training in some university program (at most 5 years, more often shorter).  For them to be excellent, they need more training.
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2018-06-19T06:44:24Z beach: They are not going to do enough self study to become good, and the company they are working for is not going to train them either.
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2018-06-19T06:44:41Z asarch: So viele Fragen und so kurz dieses Leben :'-(
2018-06-19T06:44:50Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-19T06:45:22Z beach: asarch: So did I manage to communicate the issue with x.foo(d)?
2018-06-19T06:46:37Z shrdlu68: Perhaps an economic model can explain this? The programmers in company X only need to be as good as they ought to be to have some advatage over company Y.
2018-06-19T06:47:12Z xificurC: beach: my note was only written to let you further drive your point. Not that it wasn't true
2018-06-19T06:47:28Z xificurC: I'm no *excellent* though
2018-06-19T06:47:39Z shrdlu68: i.e "good" here is relative, and the "evolutionary pressures" are not very harsh.
2018-06-19T06:48:02Z White_Flame: beach: wait, you would consider understanding C++-family OO dispatch to be doctoral level?
2018-06-19T06:48:28Z xificurC: imho studying n years has no point when one doesn't enjoy the field and does self training
2018-06-19T06:48:32Z beach: White_Flame: It currently is, as in, it is not communicated at the masters level.
2018-06-19T06:48:42Z White_Flame: wow
2018-06-19T06:48:53Z asarch: Yes, you did beach. I thought 'x' was everything in this case
2018-06-19T06:48:58Z White_Flame: and yeah, that's why programming remains a craft
2018-06-19T06:49:13Z White_Flame: because you hit this stuff in practice
2018-06-19T06:49:17Z beach: White_Flame: I asked the same question to several masters-level students about to graduate, and they had no clue.
2018-06-19T06:49:54Z loke: beach: When I interview candidates for jobs that require programming experience, I make a point of trying to figure out how they learned it, and what drives them.
2018-06-19T06:50:04Z beach: White_Flame: There is just not enough about programming-language implementation taught in these programs.
2018-06-19T06:50:19Z loke: If the only practical programming projects they worked on was school projects, it's usually a red flag.
2018-06-19T06:50:21Z beach: White_Flame: "What's the point, nobody is ever going to write a compiler".
2018-06-19T06:50:28Z beach: loke: Yeah.
2018-06-19T06:51:13Z White_Flame: loke: of course, they do have to learn somewhere
2018-06-19T06:51:42Z White_Flame: it's not the end of the world to expect them to learn on the job, if they seem like good learners otherwise
2018-06-19T06:51:45Z loke: White_Flame: Right, but if you're interestd in the topic, there is no reason why you wouldn't be working on personal projects.
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2018-06-19T06:54:13Z asarch: I remember my next question: reflection and type introspection. Does Common Lisp support those features?
2018-06-19T06:54:40Z loke: asarch: Common Lisp is a dynamically typed language.
2018-06-19T06:54:43Z asarch: I found the link while I reading the Smalltalk entry at Wikipedia
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2018-06-19T06:55:08Z White_Flame: the only weakness with introspection is structures; everything else is fine with reflection & introspection
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2018-06-19T06:55:41Z loke: asarch: You can't have a dynamically typed language without it
2018-06-19T06:55:54Z White_Flame: but there are usually non-standard ways included to fully introspect structs if you want to; normal class-based objects are fully introspectable
2018-06-19T06:56:19Z asarch: So, in short, Common Lisp actually does support them, right?
2018-06-19T06:56:30Z White_Flame: however, you generally don't need to introspect much because macros can create whatever metadata you need directly
2018-06-19T06:56:40Z White_Flame: so in practice it's used far less than other languages
2018-06-19T06:56:42Z loke: asarch: Yes. To a more comprehensive degree than any other language I know of
2018-06-19T06:57:04Z pillton: asarch: There is also a difference between a type and a class. Types denote sets in common lisp and classes denote representation.
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2018-06-19T07:03:00Z asarch: Thank you guys
2018-06-19T07:03:07Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-06-19T08:37:41Z xificurC: uiop:run-program says :interactive makes the subprocess inherit the current output and that it can be different from *standard-output*. Why and how?
2018-06-19T08:39:16Z jackdaniel: as of why and how (regarding uiop interfaces), sometimes answer is: because it could; in a very hacky way involving internal implementation interfaces. just a general observation of a regular user who tries to make sense of some of these
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2018-06-19T08:40:57Z xificurC: jackdaniel: it says e.g. in SLIME it would behave differently if it just used *standard-output*. Are you saying SLIME is using one of those hacky ways?
2018-06-19T08:41:15Z xificurC: jackdaniel: not "are you saying", rather "is"
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2018-06-19T08:43:36Z jackdaniel: I don't know what is this "current output" in your description, but if it is the lisp implementation process stdio, then SLIME has nothing to do with it (slime binds *standard-output* to a gray stream; uiop may want something with a descriptor, that is stdout)
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2018-06-19T08:44:40Z jackdaniel: for instance ECL allows accessing these things with exported symbols in EXT package (like ext:+process-standard-output+)
2018-06-19T08:45:41Z xificurC: jackdaniel: I'm just reading the docstring: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/blob/master/uiop/run-program.lisp#L507
2018-06-19T08:46:44Z jackdaniel: yes, I saw these monster docstring once or twice. that probably means, that it does what I have mentioned - tries to access process stdio
2018-06-19T08:47:35Z xificurC: jackdaniel: you don't seem to be a big fan of uiop
2018-06-19T08:48:12Z xificurC: jackdaniel: I started using it thinking it's one of those libraries that helps to write portable code
2018-06-19T08:48:30Z jackdaniel: I'm not an enthusiast of it, you are right
2018-06-19T08:48:47Z jdz: Monster docstrings you say?  Have you seen the docstring of drakma:http-request?
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2018-06-19T08:49:42Z jackdaniel: I won't start rant on it, because there is a lot of work and testing put to it, I just happen disagree with a lot of things in this library (and some of decisions which stand behind these things)
2018-06-19T08:49:58Z jackdaniel: happen to disagree*
2018-06-19T08:50:32Z shrdlu68: I wish docstrings aligned horizontally, starting at the same point on each line.
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2018-06-19T08:51:30Z jackdaniel: imho docstrings should provide short contextual reminder (for a person who has read the documentation having lengthier discussion of the interfaces)
2018-06-19T08:51:35Z beach: shrdlu68: Easy to obtain.  Use #.(format nil "...")
2018-06-19T08:51:51Z beach: shrdlu68: Then you can use the ~@ format directive and indent following lines.
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2018-06-19T08:54:27Z beach: shrdlu68: But maybe you meant that you wish that the author had done just that.
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2018-06-19T08:55:30Z shrdlu68: Wouldn't it be better to fix this in the text editors?
2018-06-19T08:56:21Z shrdlu68: Could you link to the docs for the ~@ directive? I only know of @ as a modifier to other directives...
2018-06-19T08:56:33Z beach: clhs ~@
2018-06-19T08:56:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm
2018-06-19T08:56:43Z beach: shrdlu68: Text editor support would not be enough.
2018-06-19T08:57:04Z beach: shrdlu68: If you indent lines, then the docstring will contain whitespace.
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2018-06-19T08:59:38Z LdBeth: Haskell provides some escape chat in string which ignores leading indent
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2018-06-19T09:00:51Z shrdlu68: beach: I see. But how does using #.(format.. make a difference?
2018-06-19T09:01:47Z beach: shrdlu68: ~@ at the end of a line means skip the whitespace on the following line."
2018-06-19T09:04:04Z shrdlu68: I see, never knew about that.
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2018-06-19T09:04:41Z beach: Oh, sorry, it's not ~@
2018-06-19T09:04:47Z beach: its ~newline
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2018-06-19T09:05:01Z beach: clhs 22.3.9.3
2018-06-19T09:05:01Z specbot: Tilde Newline: Ignored Newline: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm
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2018-06-19T09:05:13Z beach: @ is a modifier.
2018-06-19T09:05:39Z beach: "Tilde immediately followed by a newline ignores the newline and any following non-newline whitespace[1] characters. With a :, the newline is ignored, but any following whitespace[1] is left in place. With an @, the newline is left in place, but any following whitespace[1] is ignored."
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2018-06-19T09:05:55Z shrdlu68: Heh, that makes much more sense, and is visually much more appealing.
2018-06-19T09:07:53Z beach: Yeah, using it means you don't have to ruin the overall layout of your code.  Plus, Emacs is not always happy when there is text in column 0 that is not the beginning of a top-level form.
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2018-06-19T09:33:54Z shka: hello
2018-06-19T09:34:09Z shka: i need to stream large file via http into lisp client
2018-06-19T09:34:46Z shka: stream, because i can't afford reading/writing it at once
2018-06-19T09:35:02Z shka: can drakma do that?
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2018-06-19T09:35:42Z shka: oh, sorry, it is in the manual!
2018-06-19T09:36:50Z shrdlu68: ediware has good documentation.
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2018-06-19T09:42:53Z loke: shka: you can ask drakma to return a stream that you can read from
2018-06-19T09:43:28Z loke: use :WANT-STREAM T
2018-06-19T09:49:28Z shka: loke: thank you, although i already found it in manual
2018-06-19T09:49:33Z shka: shrdlu68: true that
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2018-06-19T09:50:29Z loke: shka: Remember to check the needs-close return value and close the stream if it's true
2018-06-19T09:51:06Z shka: good point
2018-06-19T09:52:07Z shka: loke: why can't i simply close stream blindly though?
2018-06-19T09:52:32Z loke: shka: I don't know what happens if you close an already closed chunked-stream.
2018-06-19T09:52:33Z shrdlu68: shka: You'll leak file descriptors?
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2018-06-19T09:53:01Z shrdlu68: Ah sorry, that makes no sense.
2018-06-19T09:53:01Z shka: shrdlu68: not if closed
2018-06-19T09:53:21Z shka: loke: ok, good point
2018-06-19T09:54:27Z jackdaniel: shka: closing already closed descriptor may lead to the segfault
2018-06-19T09:54:33Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: *
2018-06-19T09:55:25Z jackdaniel: I remember debugging this kind of issue in usocket (someone put there indifferent closing of the descriptor what caused problems, you may check closed issues for details)
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2018-06-19T09:56:47Z jackdaniel: (also, if the descriptor is valid again - because someone in the meantime opened something else - you kill randomly in your process)
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2018-06-19T10:21:32Z theemacsshibe[m]: Sometimes drakma doesn't pick up on text files (such as those put out by matrix servers). Is there a way to force it to put out a utf8 string? :external-format-in didn't work.
2018-06-19T10:29:57Z shka: shrdlu68: i can't seem to find needs-close function
2018-06-19T10:30:10Z shka: did you ment open-stream-p?
2018-06-19T10:31:31Z jackdaniel: sixth value of http-request
2018-06-19T10:31:52Z loke: theemacsshibe[m]: yes.
2018-06-19T10:31:59Z loke: force binary and then decode yourself
2018-06-19T10:32:06Z jackdaniel: read into want-stream parameter description
2018-06-19T10:32:41Z theemacsshibe[m]: How should I go about decoding it?
2018-06-19T10:33:21Z theemacsshibe[m]: Wait actually I think the docs said DRAKMA:DECODE-something does it, I'll have to check.
2018-06-19T10:34:46Z theemacsshibe[m]: DECODE-STREAM might take some work to process a vector, but flexi-streams has vector to stream conversion.
2018-06-19T10:36:32Z shka: jackdaniel: oh, ok
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2018-06-19T10:37:57Z loke: theemacsshibe[m]: You can decode binary using BABEL
2018-06-19T10:38:03Z shka: jackdaniel: sixth value returned from http-request?
2018-06-19T10:38:16Z jackdaniel: welcome you are
2018-06-19T10:38:27Z jackdaniel: I'd stick to the second remark, to read into want-stream parameter description
2018-06-19T10:38:31Z theemacsshibe[m]: That sounds much more sane, loke
2018-06-19T10:38:41Z jackdaniel: and experiment myself (eventually look in the source code)
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2018-06-19T10:49:36Z shangul: It says I have undefined variables(nm and mn) in the function main: https://apaste.info/aHXq
2018-06-19T10:50:29Z shangul: and also in ask-max-3
2018-06-19T10:52:38Z jackdaniel: shangul: defvar creates a special binding globally, if you put it in runtime mn and nm are not available when function is compiled
2018-06-19T10:52:42Z jackdaniel: you shouldn't use defvar this way
2018-06-19T10:52:55Z jackdaniel: if you want to introduce variables in the "main" function scope, you should use let operator
2018-06-19T10:53:02Z shangul: aha
2018-06-19T10:53:13Z jackdaniel: (defun main () (let ((mn (list 1 2 3))) (print mn))
2018-06-19T10:53:18Z jackdaniel: like this
2018-06-19T10:53:35Z jackdaniel: minion: tell shangul about pcl
2018-06-19T10:53:35Z minion: shangul: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-06-19T10:53:48Z shangul: jackdaniel, that's what I'm reading
2018-06-19T10:53:51Z beach: shangul: Or, in case you really want to share the variable globally, use DEFVAR at the top-level and SETF to assign to it.
2018-06-19T10:53:54Z jackdaniel: oh, cool
2018-06-19T10:54:17Z beach: shangul: But in this case, you don't so use LET as jackdaniel suggests.
2018-06-19T10:54:30Z shangul: beach, why setf?defvar already does the initial assignment?
2018-06-19T10:54:40Z shangul: it doesn't?
2018-06-19T10:55:32Z beach: shangul: Yes, but the way you programmed it, it re-creates the variable each time you execute the function.  That's not good style.  The good style is to create the variable at compile time as a top-level form, and to assign to it inside the function.
2018-06-19T10:56:11Z jackdaniel: shangul: one of defvar characteristics is that it doesn't alter already existing bindings. so if you evaluate (defvar *nm* 3) and after that (defvar *nm* 4) *nm*'s value will be still 3
2018-06-19T10:56:31Z jackdaniel: also it is worth remembering, that global bindings should be put in earmuffs, like that: *variale*
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2018-06-19T10:56:38Z beach: shangul: Worse, in this case, the variable is actually not created until the function is executed the first time, so the use of an un-created variable is what gives you the warning.
2018-06-19T10:56:40Z jackdaniel: it is a convention followed by all CL programmers
2018-06-19T10:56:59Z shangul: okay, thanks jackdaniel and beach
2018-06-19T10:57:08Z shangul: good pjb is not around to see this mess
2018-06-19T10:57:15Z shangul: which I've made
2018-06-19T10:57:43Z shangul: jackdaniel, but shouldn't I define the variable when using let?
2018-06-19T10:57:55Z jackdaniel: yes, you should
2018-06-19T10:57:56Z beach: shangul: LET creates a lexical variable.
2018-06-19T10:58:07Z beach: clhs let
2018-06-19T10:58:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm
2018-06-19T10:58:23Z shangul: clhs setf
2018-06-19T10:58:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
2018-06-19T10:58:27Z jackdaniel: (defun main () (let* ((mn (list 1 2 3)) (nm (reverse mn)) (format t "~a ~a~%" mn nm))
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2018-06-19T11:09:50Z shangul: again warnings: https://apaste.info/b64w
2018-06-19T11:10:25Z beach: shangul: LET defines the scope.  You have to use the variable within that scope.
2018-06-19T11:10:28Z beach: Not outside it.
2018-06-19T11:10:39Z beach: Look at jackdaniel's example.
2018-06-19T11:10:59Z beach: As you can see, the FORMAT that refers to nm and mn is inside the LET* form.
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2018-06-19T11:14:39Z shangul: done
2018-06-19T11:15:34Z shangul: review request for idiomatic Lisp: https://apaste.info/Ew5i
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2018-06-19T11:16:39Z jackdaniel: shangul: if (inside LET in function ask-max-3) is not indented properly
2018-06-19T11:16:46Z jackdaniel: same goes for (nm (reverse mn))
2018-06-19T11:16:54Z beach: shangul: I think you have the old link.
2018-06-19T11:16:55Z jackdaniel: and format below it
2018-06-19T11:17:02Z beach: Oh, maybe not.
2018-06-19T11:17:28Z jackdaniel: shangul: except that it is fairly idiomatic. mind that indentation is very important
2018-06-19T11:17:54Z jackdaniel: nobody counts parenthesis - we recognize scope by indentation in fact
2018-06-19T11:18:26Z shangul: jackdaniel, humans do that. machines count parens.
2018-06-19T11:18:42Z shangul: https://apaste.info/hPxG
2018-06-19T11:19:12Z jackdaniel: I don't count machine as "somebody"
2018-06-19T11:19:20Z beach: shangul: Still a problem in main.
2018-06-19T11:19:39Z shangul: jackdaniel, you don't count your computer as a friend?
2018-06-19T11:20:04Z shangul: beach, again indentation?
2018-06-19T11:20:09Z xificurC: This is correct, please look at it https://apaste.info/5SEh
2018-06-19T11:20:17Z beach: shangul: Line 19 is not indented properly, and the format is not inside the LET* as far as I can see.
2018-06-19T11:20:26Z xificurC: shangul: this was formatted with emacs' common-lisp-mode
2018-06-19T11:20:41Z shangul: xificurC, which?
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2018-06-19T11:21:11Z xificurC: shangul: another thing I would hope is idiomatic is to either have the if on one line or have the then and else part on separate lines, as I have done
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2018-06-19T11:21:29Z beach: shangul: I agree with xificurC.
2018-06-19T11:22:00Z xificurC: you had (if test #\newline then else), that's hard to read. Either (it test then else) or (if test #\newline then #\newline else)
2018-06-19T11:23:20Z xificurC: shangul: machines don't care, you can write everything in 1 line and will read the source code fine. You and people reading your code however will need to reason about your code. Indenting correctly makes reasoning simpler.
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2018-06-19T11:24:38Z shangul: xificurC, that's what I have in ask-max-3: if test <newline> then test
2018-06-19T11:25:15Z shangul: ah sorry
2018-06-19T11:25:21Z shangul: you said that's hard to read
2018-06-19T11:26:35Z shangul: https://apaste.info/XzPW
2018-06-19T11:26:52Z shangul: How should I enable emacs' common lisp mode?
2018-06-19T11:27:09Z shangul: forget it I'm searching
2018-06-19T11:27:51Z xificurC: shangul: you had "(ask-max-3 prompt) input-string)))". That's tricky to me :) I can read (if ... (ask-max-3 prompt) input-string) because I see the if will be a one-liner. But when the then gets its own line I expect the else to get its own too. Remember that an if's else is optional
2018-06-19T11:28:25Z shangul: xificurC, check the new version
2018-06-19T11:29:05Z xificurC: shangul: your format in main got into the bindings part of let*. I don't think that even compiles, does it? :)
2018-06-19T11:29:38Z shangul: no
2018-06-19T11:29:47Z shangul: <beach> shangul: Line 19 is not indented properly, and the format is not inside the LET* as far as I can see.
2018-06-19T11:30:40Z xificurC: shangul: yes but let is (let ((var1 val1) (var2 val2) ...) code-here-that-sees-var1-var2-...)
2018-06-19T11:31:17Z xificurC: shangul: you wrote (let ((var1 val1) (var2 val2) code-here-that-sees-var1-var2) nothing-here)
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2018-06-19T11:31:38Z shangul: well it's hard to see where anything is
2018-06-19T11:32:38Z xificurC: shangul: that's only the initial feeling :)  Once you and your brain get used to it it's easier to read than put-your-language-here
2018-06-19T11:33:30Z xificurC: shangul: what languages do you know?
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2018-06-19T11:34:01Z shangul: xificurC, human or programming?
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2018-06-19T11:34:18Z xificurC: shangul: it's much easier to write lisp in emacs with paredit/smartparens/lispy, or some other editor with equivalent tooling
2018-06-19T11:34:21Z xificurC: shangul: programming
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2018-06-19T11:35:00Z shangul: xificurC, I'm using emacs and I used to work with C_children_languages + a little 8086 assembly
2018-06-19T11:36:00Z xificurC: shangul: C_children_languages is a very loose term, would you include java there? How about javascript? I'm not sure what makes a language C's child
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2018-06-19T11:37:11Z shangul: xificurC, mostly C#(it's Java's clone), Python, C and less than these: Lua, C++ and Perl
2018-06-19T11:37:46Z shangul: I thought I should come out of this family, so I'm learning Lisp
2018-06-19T11:37:49Z xificurC: shangul: anyway, foo(1, 2); becomes (foo 1 2) in CL. 1 + 2 becomes (+ 1 2). if (...) {...} {...} becomes (if test then else). It's less effort
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2018-06-19T11:38:12Z shangul: right
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2018-06-19T11:38:27Z shangul: except that it's if (...) {...} else {...}
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2018-06-19T11:39:38Z xificurC: shangul: you just need to get a well tweaked editor and parens won't be a problem. If you're using stock emacs have a look at paredit (or lispy if you feel more brave0
2018-06-19T11:39:56Z xificurC: shangul: right, typo
2018-06-19T11:40:15Z shangul: what are those? lispy and paredit. emacs' plugins?
2018-06-19T11:40:42Z beach quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2018-06-19T11:40:49Z xificurC: shangul: yes. Paredit is for PAREntheses EDITing. Lispy is a bit more than just that
2018-06-19T11:40:55Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't concern myself with editor enchancements for now, just try indent lines by myself. but that's just my opinion
2018-06-19T11:41:17Z jackdaniel: otherwise a lot of power will go into learning the tools (not the language)
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2018-06-19T11:42:45Z xificurC: while I agree there's also a cost involved when one has to manually match the closing braces and see compilation errors when one misses one. Not sure which option takes more effort
2018-06-19T11:44:31Z jackdaniel: compilator errors require correction which improves language understanding, but as I said, it is just an opinion of mine
2018-06-19T11:44:40Z xificurC: jackdaniel:  "global bindings should be put in earmuffs, like that: *variale* ... it is a convention followed by all CL programmers"   <- I was stunned when reading Let Over Lambda :)
2018-06-19T11:44:50Z shangul: new version again: https://apaste.info/fs40
2018-06-19T11:45:38Z jackdaniel: xificurC: I haven't read it, does the author violate this convention?
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2018-06-19T11:46:05Z shangul: jackdaniel, about that convention, is that just a convention followed by programmers or those "earmuffs" make a variable global?
2018-06-19T11:46:39Z jackdaniel: shangul: it is just a convention, but very important one
2018-06-19T11:46:46Z jackdaniel: it helps you to understand context better
2018-06-19T11:47:15Z jackdaniel: *earmuffed-variables* stand out, and it is good, because global bindings are (usually, I'm ignoring sb-ext:defglobal for now) dynamic
2018-06-19T11:47:41Z jackdaniel: dynamic bindings are very useful, but may be quite fishy when it comes to understanding the code
2018-06-19T11:47:49Z jackdaniel: earmuffs are a warning: fish ahead
2018-06-19T11:48:15Z shangul: aha
2018-06-19T11:48:26Z xificurC: jackdaniel: "Since this convention is almost like having another namespace for dynamic variables, diminishing their duality with lexical variables, this book does not follow it exactly."
2018-06-19T11:49:08Z shangul: should I change anything else in the last version?
2018-06-19T11:49:36Z jackdaniel: shangul: looks good. I think xificurC had also remark about if (which was valid), except that nothing wrong with the code as far as I can see
2018-06-19T11:50:00Z jackdaniel: xificurC: interesting. I find having them in the same namespace being one of CL's flaws on the other hand
2018-06-19T11:50:07Z xificurC: I said 1 line or separate then and else on new lines. He went with 1 line
2018-06-19T11:51:11Z shangul: oh sorry
2018-06-19T11:51:15Z shangul: I should fix that
2018-06-19T11:52:13Z xificurC: you made the whole if stand on 1 line, which is fine by me
2018-06-19T11:52:20Z shangul: https://apaste.info/nPQW
2018-06-19T11:52:57Z shangul: a problem: emacs doesn't know how to indent input-string when I want to put in on another line
2018-06-19T11:52:58Z xificurC: as far as tips go, listen more closely to what jackdaniel says than me
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2018-06-19T12:05:49Z Myon: svillemot: is there anything I can do to help with cl-plus-ssl in Debian?
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2018-06-19T12:09:28Z svillemot: Myon: by chance I happen to be working on it right now
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2018-06-19T12:09:49Z Myon: :)
2018-06-19T12:10:02Z svillemot: I shall upload it soon, probably today
2018-06-19T12:10:10Z Myon: does it support 1.1 now?
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2018-06-19T12:11:27Z svillemot: I think so, but I still have to verify
2018-06-19T12:11:40Z Myon: that would be excellent news
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2018-06-19T12:12:17Z Myon: I got stuck trying to add a testsuite run in the pgloader build because it has too many tests with different requirements
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2018-06-19T12:12:51Z Myon: I think I'll go with some minimal solution, plus some tests that use ssl
2018-06-19T12:13:22Z svillemot: ok, I'll keep you updated about the status of cl+ssl
2018-06-19T12:13:44Z shrdlu68: Oooh, are we talking about ssl?
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2018-06-19T12:14:14Z svillemot: shrdlu68: indeed :)
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2018-06-19T12:16:09Z svillemot: CL+SSL+Debian actually
2018-06-19T12:16:39Z svillemot: and the OpenSSL 1.0 → 1.1 mess
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2018-06-19T12:24:08Z flip214: Last call: does anyone know about a high-level interface to Ethereum (smart contracts) before I write my own?
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2018-06-19T12:26:02Z shrdlu68: flip214: What'll you use for elliptic curve crypto?
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2018-06-19T12:31:32Z flip214: shrdlu68: I don't plan to - just want to use the Ethereum rest API (via the :ethi library) to call smart contracts.
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2018-06-19T12:31:37Z flip214: Do I need ECDSA for that?
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2018-06-19T12:37:11Z shrdlu68: I don't know.
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2018-06-19T13:25:55Z Fare: flip214, I'm developing a very high level interface to Ethereum smart contracts... in OCaml and Coq :-(
2018-06-19T13:27:00Z shka: but... why?
2018-06-19T13:27:21Z shrdlu68: Moloch.
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2018-06-19T14:11:12Z splittist admits he doesn't get smart contracts.
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2018-06-19T14:20:59Z Bike: On sbcl, (let ((closures (loop for x below 2 collect (let ((y x)) (lambda () y))))) (setf (documentation (first closures) t) "test") (values (eq (first closures) (second closures)) (documentation (second closures) t))) => NIL, "test"
2018-06-19T14:21:17Z Bike: in other words the docstring is shared betwen distinct closures with the same underlying function
2018-06-19T14:21:28Z Bike: does that seem at all problematic to anybody?
2018-06-19T14:21:53Z Ukari: is there been exist a function lexical scope stuff which looks like let or defvar?
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2018-06-19T14:23:04Z Bike: flet?
2018-06-19T14:23:07Z Ukari: I found that use let makes code nesting, and (let ((x)) (setf x)) would change x again and again
2018-06-19T14:24:54Z beach: Bike: I think it is entirely reasonable to share the documentation.
2018-06-19T14:25:35Z Bike: Me too, but spooky action at a distance is spooky enough that I'm wondering if anyone disagrees
2018-06-19T14:25:48Z beach: Fair enough.
2018-06-19T14:26:29Z Ukari: not the flet, it seems that no exist
2018-06-19T14:26:46Z beach: Ukari: That code snippet does not make much sense.
2018-06-19T14:27:08Z beach: Ukari: In fact, what you say does not make any sense to me.
2018-06-19T14:27:30Z beach: Ukari: FLET does exist.  You can be sure of that.
2018-06-19T14:27:45Z beach: Ukari: And it creates lexical functions.
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2018-06-19T14:28:05Z Ukari: "not the flet, (the stuff i want ) it seems that no exist"
2018-06-19T14:28:26Z beach: Ukari: That might be possible.  But I for one do not understand what it is that you want.
2018-06-19T14:28:35Z Ukari: flet exist, i know it defines named function
2018-06-19T14:29:21Z beach: Ukari: Yes, but "is there been exist a function lexical scope stuff which looks like let or defvar?"  makes no sense to me.
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2018-06-19T14:29:43Z beach: ... even if I let the grammar problems pass.
2018-06-19T14:30:08Z beach: I don't know what a "function lexical scope stuff" is.
2018-06-19T14:30:21Z xificurC: try siri
2018-06-19T14:30:23Z beach: And LET and DEFVAR don't look anything alike, so I don't know what they have in common.
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2018-06-19T14:32:10Z Ukari: pastebin.com/qrn0Edsx
2018-06-19T14:32:52Z schweers: Are named function (e.g. created with defun) scoped in the same way as special variables?  I’ve always been a little confused about this issue.  background: I want to rebind a function for a dynamic extent, and am not sure how to do this in a safe and portable way.
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2018-06-19T14:33:17Z Ukari: defun seems to be package scoped
2018-06-19T14:33:40Z beach: Ukari: Perhaps LET* is what you want?
2018-06-19T14:33:55Z Bike: schweers: defun makes global functions thathaveglobalscope.
2018-06-19T14:33:56Z Ukari: beach, LET* would make code nested
2018-06-19T14:34:19Z Bike: schweers: flet and labels have lexical scope. there is no operator for dynamic function binding.
2018-06-19T14:34:37Z beach: Ukari: How would it make the code nested?
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2018-06-19T14:35:02Z xificurC: Ukari: are you looking for scheme-like define-in-define behavior?
2018-06-19T14:35:14Z asarch: What is the name of the factorial function from "the standard library"?
2018-06-19T14:35:23Z Bike: there isn't a standard factorial function.
2018-06-19T14:35:27Z beach: Ukari: (let* ((target (lambda*...)) (target1 (funcall target)) (target2 (funcall (iter-next target1)))) (assert...))
2018-06-19T14:35:31Z xificurC: beach: parens are nesting, big issue :D
2018-06-19T14:35:35Z asarch: (! 5) doesn't work :-(
2018-06-19T14:35:51Z asarch: D'oh!
2018-06-19T14:35:58Z asarch: Thank you Bike
2018-06-19T14:36:03Z Bike: alexandria has one, named "factorial".
2018-06-19T14:36:21Z asarch: Who's she?
2018-06-19T14:36:40Z Bike: The library. Alexandria.
2018-06-19T14:36:43Z Bike: It's a pun, see.
2018-06-19T14:36:45Z antoszka: asarch: https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/
2018-06-19T14:36:59Z asarch: Bingo! cl-alexandria - Collection of portable Common Lisp utilities
2018-06-19T14:37:03Z antoszka: asarch: available in QuickLisp
2018-06-19T14:37:07Z beach: asarch: I am a little troubled by your recent questions.  It seems like you are collecting random keywords from the specifications of other programming languages, and asking whether those features exist in Common Lisp?  What is the point of this exercise?
2018-06-19T14:37:38Z xificurC: Ukari: there's no such thing. If you really, really want it you can write a macro. You should get used to the nesting though. And if you feel like code is nesting too much then you are already in trouble
2018-06-19T14:38:09Z beach: Ukari: Can you tell me what it is that you dislike about my solution to your problem?
2018-06-19T14:38:19Z asarch: Well, the next programming language I would like to learn is Smalltalk. And while I am reading its entry in Wikipedia, I found that in ST "42 factorial" is the way to send messages to the objects
2018-06-19T14:38:29Z beach: Ukari: Is it the fact that My lines would have 4 more positions of indentation?
2018-06-19T14:38:48Z asarch: "42" would be the message receiver while "factorial" is the "message selector"
2018-06-19T14:38:50Z xificurC: yes
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2018-06-19T14:39:00Z asarch: While reading this, I was wondering how much would !42 be
2018-06-19T14:39:08Z Bike: It's pretty big.
2018-06-19T14:39:14Z Ukari: pastebin.com/LTvswbPH, different between nested and not-nested
2018-06-19T14:39:18Z asarch: So I started sbcl and typed: (! 42) and bum! There is no one :-(
2018-06-19T14:39:51Z Ukari: you way is accepectable, beach
2018-06-19T14:39:53Z Bike: Programming at random won't get you far, it's true.
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2018-06-19T14:40:49Z asarch: Common Lisp is a beautiful programming language, sadly I'm infected with C++ "techniques" which I need to forget in order to get the most of Common Lisp
2018-06-19T14:41:05Z beach: Ukari: If you really care about such things, I recommend you use a different programming language, because that is totally not how Common Lisp works.  A form that introduces bindings also introduces scope.
2018-06-19T14:41:09Z xificurC: Ukari: scheme has this, CL doesn't. I don't think people miss this
2018-06-19T14:41:22Z asarch: While doing this, hundreds of questions plague my mind
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2018-06-19T14:42:34Z shka: asarch: it is one of reasons to learn CL
2018-06-19T14:42:40Z beach: asarch: I totally understand.  But the way to go about your quest is to figure out what you want done and ask how it is done in Common Lisp.  Not taking some random keyword (virtual functions, for example) and asking whether Common Lisp has the same feature, which may or may not make sense in Common Lisp.
2018-06-19T14:43:52Z asarch: I know, I know. I really sorry about that
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2018-06-19T14:44:27Z xificurC: beach: and that's totally not how the human mind works. One always tries to compare things to something else they know to be similar. The problem is CL only *seems* similar
2018-06-19T14:45:10Z beach: Possibly.
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2018-06-19T14:46:51Z edgar-rft: In Common Lisp all functions have some virtue, therefore they're all virtual.
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2018-06-19T14:47:21Z shrdlu68: I read that expecting "virtuous"
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2018-06-19T14:48:22Z Ukari: xificurC, forget unknown cl syntax and use the lambda way, for example use (funcall (lambda (x) (print x)) 1) instead of (let ((x 1)) (print x))
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2018-06-19T14:49:21Z xificurC: Ukari: that's even more nested, and more importantly, less readable
2018-06-19T14:50:10Z asarch: Conrad Barski in his book says that "The power at your fingertips when writing Lisp code is what makes it so different. Once you “get” Lisp, you’ll be forever changed as a programmer. Even if you end up never writing Lisp code again for the rest of your life, learning Lisp will fundamentally change you as a coder."
2018-06-19T14:50:21Z edgar-rft: shrdlu68, sorry for disappointing your expectations.
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2018-06-19T14:55:04Z edgar-rft: asarch: Many ideas and concepts in lisp are pretty much different than in other programming languages. So even if you later never write lisp code, learning lisp teaches you to see more different perspectives to solve problems, raising chances to get things done. I think that's what C. Barsky means.
2018-06-19T14:56:19Z schweers: Bike: thanks for the clarification
2018-06-19T14:57:18Z schweers: so if I want something like dynamic extent, I’ll have to do it myself?  I’ve seen examples which use SETF on SYMBOL-FUNCTION in conjuction with UNWIND-PROTECT.  Seemed reasonable, but wasn’t sure if was safe, especially in the presence of threads.
2018-06-19T14:57:22Z Bike: If you need to have a dynamically bound function you could do like (defun foo (&rest args) (apply *foo* args)), and then do whatever with *foo*
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2018-06-19T14:58:15Z shrdlu68: asarch: It would probably still be my favourite language even without macros.
2018-06-19T14:58:21Z schweers: I guess such a function should be safe to declare inline
2018-06-19T14:58:44Z schweers: but it bothers me a little to do it like that, as it means I can’t do it for existing functions without editing every caller
2018-06-19T14:58:57Z shrdlu68: Well, maybe not - but there'd still be so many cool things about it.
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2018-06-19T14:59:21Z Bike: schweers: why would you have to edit every caller?
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2018-06-19T14:59:44Z schweers: Bike: forget it, you’re right, I don’t have to do that.  My bad.
2018-06-19T14:59:49Z shrdlu68: Think he meant "recompiling"
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2018-06-19T15:01:07Z Bike: dynamically binding functions is pretty unusual, by the way. think hard before you do it.
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2018-06-19T15:03:46Z jackdaniel: interesting idea though
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2018-06-19T15:04:08Z schweers: asarch: learning and “getting” lisp not only changes you as a programmer, it spoils your character.
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2018-06-19T15:06:57Z Bike: contextl does stuff like that and it's kind of neat, but i don't entirely get it either.
2018-06-19T15:06:58Z Ukari: oh what happend, I use the sbcl context exist since yesterday, (lambda* (x) (print x) (yield (+ x 1))) (funcall * 5) (funcall *), then it prints 2. after i restart sbcl, the same code prints 5
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2018-06-19T15:12:12Z schweers: Bike: I know it is, and I guess it’s normally unusual for good reason.  I’m thinking about a testing context.
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2018-06-19T15:13:07Z schweers: I’m not going to run around doing this immediately, but my idea was to find out whether this is useful in order to mock/stub/fake/whatever a function during testing.
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2018-06-19T15:13:38Z schweers: but the more I think of it, the less happy I am as I see more problems with the approach
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2018-06-19T15:17:16Z flip214: Fare: please send me the link to that -- it's one more template to copy off of ;)
2018-06-19T15:17:47Z Ukari: oh i know what happend now, i excuted '(defvar x 2)' before
2018-06-19T15:18:05Z phoe: Ukari: DEFVAR does not always assign the value you pass to it
2018-06-19T15:18:12Z phoe: (defvar *foo* 3) (defvar *foo* 5)
2018-06-19T15:18:17Z phoe: *foo* ;=> 3
2018-06-19T15:18:39Z phoe: if *foo* is already bound, then DEFVAR does not change that binding.
2018-06-19T15:19:13Z phoe: use SETF for altering already existing bindings, or, if you are not sure if the binding has been created before, DEFPARAMETER will *always* set the new value.
2018-06-19T15:19:26Z phoe: (defparameter *bar* 42) (defparameter *bar* 35)
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2018-06-19T15:19:30Z phoe: *bar* ;=> 35
2018-06-19T15:19:48Z Ukari: thanks you, phoe
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2018-06-19T15:23:06Z Ukari: (defvar x 2) (lambda (x) (lambda () (print x))) , and then (funcall * 5) (funcall *). why it print 2 ?
2018-06-19T15:23:25Z phoe: Ukari: the variable X is now globally special
2018-06-19T15:23:34Z Ukari: is x in (lambda (x)) lexcial?
2018-06-19T15:23:37Z phoe: no
2018-06-19T15:23:44Z phoe: DEFVAR proclaimed X globally special.
2018-06-19T15:23:54Z Ukari: it is not safe
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2018-06-19T15:24:19Z phoe: This is why global dynamic variables are always expected to be named with *earmuffs*.
2018-06-19T15:24:27Z phoe: this is to avoid such confusion.
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2018-06-19T15:24:31Z Ukari: if i want to write lambda, it is not safe to naming the lambda argument
2018-06-19T15:24:50Z phoe: no, it is not safe to pass any non-earmuffed symbol to DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER.
2018-06-19T15:24:50Z Ukari: well
2018-06-19T15:25:11Z phoe: you should be able to name your lambda parameters in any way you'd like. (except for constants, that's an error.)
2018-06-19T15:25:15Z phoe: BUT
2018-06-19T15:25:26Z phoe: anything that is in *earmuffs* is presumed to be a global dynamic variable.
2018-06-19T15:25:26Z Ukari: but without earmuffed?
2018-06-19T15:25:37Z Fare: flip214, see https://bbt.legi.cash/ for my slides at LambdaConf 2018 (videos to come in the next few months).
2018-06-19T15:25:40Z phoe: anything that's not - it's presumed to be a lexical variable.
2018-06-19T15:25:51Z phoe: or, in some special cases, constants, such as PI.
2018-06-19T15:26:22Z Ukari: so PI is not recommand to be used for name a lambda parameter?
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2018-06-19T15:26:34Z Fare: flip214, our code is using a lot of modules and functors, so in CL you might want to translate that to Interface passing style.
2018-06-19T15:26:48Z phoe: Ukari: well, you can try to use it.
2018-06-19T15:26:54Z phoe: Lisp will signal an error if you do. (:
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2018-06-19T15:27:15Z phoe: constant names are not allowed as variable names in Lisp.
2018-06-19T15:27:33Z flip214: Fare: thanks a lot, will take a look!
2018-06-19T15:27:44Z Ukari: i get it, thanks you, phoe
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2018-06-19T15:29:41Z Ukari: would it be a good idea to make lamdba and defvar check their parameter's name to enforce name style?
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2018-06-19T15:32:42Z beach: No.
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2018-06-19T15:36:08Z buffergn0me: That would be really annoying. Especially when porting code from other languages
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2018-06-19T15:43:28Z beach: Ukari: Lambda is perfectly able to use special variables as parameters.  What that means is that the special variable gets bound upon entry to the function and unbound upon exit.  For example ((lambda (*print-base*) (print 234)) 2)
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2018-06-19T15:44:52Z beach: buffergn0me: It would be especially annoying because a conventionally named special variable could then not be used in a lambda expression.
2018-06-19T15:45:00Z Ukari: is that a lambda bug? pastebin.com/4D8X4rBg
2018-06-19T15:45:15Z asarch: schweers, D'oh! :-(
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2018-06-19T15:46:23Z Bike: It's not a bug. x is a special variable, and once the outer function has returned its binding of x is extinguished, so the inner function uses the global value.
2018-06-19T15:47:55Z phoe: Ukari: your compiler already does it
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2018-06-19T15:48:37Z phoe: in SBCL at least, (let ((*foo* 42)) ...) will emit a warning if *foo* is not declared special
2018-06-19T15:49:37Z beach: phoe: I think Ukari is suggesting that LAMBDA check that there are no earmuffs in the parameters.
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2018-06-19T15:50:53Z phoe: beach: (lambda (*foo*) *foo*) emits the same warning.
2018-06-19T15:51:14Z phoe: ; caught STYLE-WARNING: using the lexical binding of the symbol (COMMON-LISP-USER::*FOO*), not the dynamic binding, even though the name follows the usual naming convention (names like *FOO*) for special variables
2018-06-19T15:51:26Z Ukari: I know why
2018-06-19T15:51:57Z beach: phoe: Sure.
2018-06-19T15:52:12Z beach: I guess I must have misunderstood the suggestion.
2018-06-19T15:53:36Z Ukari: pastebin.com/RieZHa8C
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2018-06-19T15:55:04Z Ukari: in (lambda (x) (lambda () (print x))) or (let ((x 5)) (lambda () (print x))), when you funcall the outside lambda or get the let result, it returns you a FUNCTION
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2018-06-19T15:55:22Z phoe: yes
2018-06-19T15:55:47Z phoe: except X is special, so its value is taken from the dynamic environment and not the lexical one.
2018-06-19T15:55:51Z Ukari: but in (defun test (x) (lambda () (print x)))) , (test 5) returns a CLOSURE
2018-06-19T15:56:46Z Ukari: In a CLOSURE, a free variable in bind to its lexcial context, so use (defvar) won't change it.
2018-06-19T15:56:49Z phoe: Ukari: no
2018-06-19T15:56:59Z Ukari: in bind -> is bind
2018-06-19T15:57:09Z phoe: it returns a function in my case, and it won't matter anyway if a FUNCTION or a CLOSURE is returned
2018-06-19T15:57:17Z phoe: the only thing that matters is if X is proclaimed special
2018-06-19T15:57:30Z phoe: if it is, then the value of X will be taken from the dynamic environment
2018-06-19T15:57:33Z Ukari: it matters, look at examples in pastebin.com/RieZHa8C
2018-06-19T15:57:38Z phoe: if it is not, then the value of X will be taken from the lexical environment
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2018-06-19T15:58:23Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/820#820
2018-06-19T15:58:52Z Ukari: In a FUNCTION, a free variable is determined in the context where the FUNCTION runs
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2018-06-19T15:59:07Z phoe: Ukari: you have DEFVARed Y after the DEFUN.
2018-06-19T15:59:23Z phoe: when you evaluate the DEFUN, Y is a lexical variable.
2018-06-19T15:59:31Z phoe: Only afterwards you proclaim Y special.
2018-06-19T15:59:39Z phoe: But that does not change already compiled code.
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2018-06-19T16:00:05Z Ukari: FUNCTION and CLOSURE were both been compiled
2018-06-19T16:00:05Z phoe: TEST still works as it did, the variable used inside it was lexical and does not suddenly become dynamic because of a later DEFVAR.
2018-06-19T16:00:23Z phoe: Ukari: in line 8 of your example, you do a DEFUN.
2018-06-19T16:00:32Z phoe: Ukari: in line 11 of your example, you do a DEFVAR.
2018-06-19T16:00:46Z phoe: Because DEFUN is before DEFVAR, the variable Y is lexical.
2018-06-19T16:00:59Z Ukari: yes, what the defun returns is a CLOSURE so it's free variable has already been bind
2018-06-19T16:01:27Z Ukari: the CLOSURE's free variable
2018-06-19T16:02:24Z Ukari: in your typemoon 820 example, it does't confit with what i say
2018-06-19T16:02:45Z phoe: hm.
2018-06-19T16:02:47Z phoe: one second.
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2018-06-19T16:04:27Z pierpal: Life must be very exciting for people learning programming languages by experiments
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2018-06-19T16:04:35Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/821#821
2018-06-19T16:05:16Z phoe: here - by reversing the order of DEFVAR and DEFUN, we get different results.
2018-06-19T16:05:30Z phoe: I use different symbols in both cases to make sure my environment is not polluted.
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2018-06-19T16:06:28Z makomo: i forgot, is it possible to un-special a symbol?
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2018-06-19T16:06:37Z Ukari: your (funcall (foo 35)) didn't save a closure before defvar
2018-06-19T16:06:38Z makomo: makunbound just unbinds it, but to make it non-special
2018-06-19T16:06:49Z phoe: Ukari: save the closure? what do you mean?
2018-06-19T16:06:59Z phoe: makomo: I don't think so; you have to unintern the symbol.
2018-06-19T16:07:08Z Ukari: (defparameter tmp-save (foo 35))
2018-06-19T16:07:42Z makomo: phoe: mhm
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2018-06-19T16:08:32Z makomo: Ukari: your first example on pastebin is wrong, is it not?
2018-06-19T16:08:35Z Ukari: why (funcall (lambda () (lambda () (print "foo")))) returns a FUNCTION, it seems should return a CLOSURE
2018-06-19T16:08:48Z makomo: i think you accidentally had X proclaimed special when you were evaluating that lambda
2018-06-19T16:08:49Z phoe: Ukari: no problem
2018-06-19T16:08:50Z phoe: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/822#822
2018-06-19T16:09:00Z phoe: still same thing
2018-06-19T16:09:04Z phoe: Ukari: a closure? why?
2018-06-19T16:09:11Z phoe: if it's supposed to be a closure, then what variable is closed over?
2018-06-19T16:09:51Z Ukari: a closure means a function with its context
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2018-06-19T16:10:12Z phoe: Ukari: yep
2018-06-19T16:10:26Z phoe: what context is being stored over here? I can't see any
2018-06-19T16:10:58Z Ukari: (funcall (lambda (x) (lambda () (print x)))), in this example, its context is [x]
2018-06-19T16:11:07Z phoe: yes
2018-06-19T16:11:12Z phoe: it closes over the variable X
2018-06-19T16:11:23Z phoe: to be precise, it closes over the *lexical* variable X
2018-06-19T16:11:49Z Ukari: but (funcall (lambda (x) (lambda () (print x)))) returns a FUNCTION
2018-06-19T16:12:26Z phoe: Ukari: nope, it signals an error
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2018-06-19T16:13:42Z makomo: Ukari: you forgot the argument X, but no, it returns a closure
2018-06-19T16:13:49Z makomo: are you sure X is not proclaimed special in your image?
2018-06-19T16:13:55Z makomo: (unintern 'x) and retry your example
2018-06-19T16:14:27Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-06-19T16:14:34Z Ukari: plaster.tymoon.eu/view/823#823
2018-06-19T16:14:50Z makomo: links should be posted with "http://", they're easier to click
2018-06-19T16:14:59Z makomo: and notice
2018-06-19T16:15:10Z phoe: Ukari: yes, exactly.
2018-06-19T16:15:21Z makomo: Ukari: right, as expected
2018-06-19T16:15:21Z phoe: in the first FUNCALL, X1 is lexical, in the second funcall, X1 is dynamic.
2018-06-19T16:15:25Z makomo: and that's what phoe is saying
2018-06-19T16:15:34Z Ukari: my mistake, what (funcall (lambda (x) (lambda () (print x)))) returns might be a CLOSURE or FUNCTION, it determines by the context
2018-06-19T16:16:03Z phoe: no, it will always signal an error.
2018-06-19T16:16:11Z phoe: because you attempt to FUNCALL an one-argument function with zero arguments.
2018-06-19T16:16:14Z makomo: Ukari: you forgot an argument again
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2018-06-19T16:16:19Z Ukari: yes
2018-06-19T16:16:26Z makomo: but his point is valid
2018-06-19T16:16:41Z makomo: so yes, it depends on the state of the lisp image, i.e. the specialness of the symbols involved
2018-06-19T16:16:47Z phoe: but not to be nitpicking: yes
2018-06-19T16:17:03Z phoe: depending on whether your symbols are proclaimed special, your variables may be lexical or dynamic
2018-06-19T16:17:13Z phoe: which is why dynamic variables are earmuffed in Lisp, to avoid confusion.
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2018-06-19T16:18:45Z Ukari: thanks you
2018-06-19T16:18:49Z nirved: seems that in clisp defvar affects the previous lambda
2018-06-19T16:19:03Z devon: (funcall (lambda () ##)) is identical to plain unadorned ##
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2018-06-19T16:25:54Z makomo: nirved: huh, it really does
2018-06-19T16:26:06Z makomo: phoe: did you see this?
2018-06-19T16:26:12Z phoe: makomo: yes
2018-06-19T16:26:24Z phoe: very similar transformations are done by compilers
2018-06-19T16:26:43Z phoe: (let ((x 42)) ...) == (funcall (lambda (x) ...) 42)
2018-06-19T16:27:05Z phoe: therefore:     ... == (funcall (lambda () ...) #| nothing |#)
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2018-06-19T16:27:54Z makomo: so the behavior of clisp is ok?
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2018-06-19T16:28:04Z phoe: makomo: what is clisp's behavior exactly?
2018-06-19T16:28:13Z phoe: oh wait
2018-06-19T16:28:18Z phoe: it changes the output of the previous lambda?
2018-06-19T16:28:24Z makomo: yeah lol
2018-06-19T16:28:41Z makomo: http://rextester.com/CQFO22548
2018-06-19T16:28:44Z makomo: phoe:  ^
2018-06-19T16:28:50Z nirved: clisp returns function in both cases as well, -ansi doesn't change it
2018-06-19T16:29:00Z phoe: nirved: it doesn't have to return anything that's called a CLOSURE
2018-06-19T16:29:09Z phoe: calling it it's merely an SBCL extension
2018-06-19T16:29:20Z phoe: makomo: this sounds like a nasty bug
2018-06-19T16:29:25Z makomo: yeah what the hell
2018-06-19T16:29:34Z makomo: but i would think that stuff like this would be well tested
2018-06-19T16:29:40Z makomo: is it really a bug?
2018-06-19T16:30:03Z phoe: makomo: I can bet $10 that it is
2018-06-19T16:30:27Z phoe: previously compiled code should not be affected by a symbol becoming special later
2018-06-19T16:30:36Z makomo: yeah
2018-06-19T16:31:33Z devon: Please report the bug to the CLISP implementers!
2018-06-19T16:31:48Z nirved: interpret-time vs compilate-time?
2018-06-19T16:31:56Z nirved: *compile-time
2018-06-19T16:32:14Z phoe: nirved: I assume so; sounds like a bug in its interpreter
2018-06-19T16:32:51Z phoe: I don't have the time or patience to register at https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/bugs/ now
2018-06-19T16:33:09Z phoe: if anyone has a sourceforge account, I'd gladly delegate this task to them
2018-06-19T16:33:49Z makomo: i was about to do the same, but i don't have one either
2018-06-19T16:34:29Z makomo: do the clisp guys hang out on freenode somewhere?
2018-06-19T16:36:44Z beach: karlosz is one such guy.
2018-06-19T16:36:49Z dlowe: I believe they're mostly on mailing lists.
2018-06-19T16:37:08Z phoe: dlowe: CLISP official page linked me to the SF bugtracker.
2018-06-19T16:37:26Z karlosz: its been very hard to contact the clisp people
2018-06-19T16:37:29Z karlosz: they moved to gitlab
2018-06-19T16:37:35Z phoe: welp
2018-06-19T16:37:40Z makomo: bleh
2018-06-19T16:37:52Z karlosz: is there a problem?
2018-06-19T16:37:56Z makomo: we have a bug to report
2018-06-19T16:38:00Z makomo: http://rextester.com/CQFO22548
2018-06-19T16:38:31Z makomo: DEFVAR-ing X after creating the lambda *lambda1* changes its behavior
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2018-06-19T16:39:04Z karlosz: thats not a bug
2018-06-19T16:39:07Z karlosz: thats how special vars work
2018-06-19T16:39:17Z phoe: karlosz: that variable is not special before.
2018-06-19T16:39:28Z makomo: karlosz: SBCL gives different results for example
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2018-06-19T16:39:41Z karlosz: oh, i see
2018-06-19T16:39:42Z nirved: makomo: your code is wrong
2018-06-19T16:39:42Z phoe: the symbol is not proclaimed special when the first function is defined.
2018-06-19T16:39:48Z karlosz: the compiler works though, right?
2018-06-19T16:39:58Z makomo: nirved: it is?
2018-06-19T16:40:03Z phoe: hm, wait a second
2018-06-19T16:40:11Z phoe: the builder is only compiled once
2018-06-19T16:40:14Z makomo: hm right
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2018-06-19T16:40:35Z karlosz: i think the consequences are undefined in such a case
2018-06-19T16:40:40Z karlosz: to cater to interpreted vs compiled code
2018-06-19T16:40:51Z karlosz: since the interpreter interpretes the lambda each time
2018-06-19T16:41:15Z phoe: hmmm, I'd assume it would remember if each variable inside it was lexical or dynamic
2018-06-19T16:41:24Z phoe: but we need to check in the standard
2018-06-19T16:41:24Z dlowe: X in builder refers to the argument, but now the argument is special
2018-06-19T16:41:28Z phoe: clhs special
2018-06-19T16:41:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_specia.htm
2018-06-19T16:41:44Z dlowe: and as such will have dynamic scope instead of lexical when builder calls functions
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2018-06-19T16:43:56Z Bike: clhs 3.2.2.3
2018-06-19T16:43:56Z specbot: Semantic Constraints: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2018-06-19T16:43:58Z Bike: point two, i guess.
2018-06-19T16:44:30Z phoe: Bike: yes, exactly
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2018-06-19T16:44:41Z Ukari: makomo, when (funcall *builder* 10) runs, the (funcall *builder* 10)'s result might be a CLOSURE or a FUNCTION, that determined by the context. Since you use (defvar x), x was treated as a global dynamic scope variable so (funcall *builder* 10) returns FUNCTION
2018-06-19T16:44:50Z beach: But it might be allowed to "compile" the function each time.
2018-06-19T16:45:10Z karlosz: especially if its using a bona fide interpreter
2018-06-19T16:45:12Z dlowe: also, in defvar, it mentions that its effects happen at compile-time.
2018-06-19T16:45:20Z phoe: beach: would treating that function with COMPILE NIL fix that?
2018-06-19T16:45:24Z karlosz: i dont think lcisps behavior is non conforming
2018-06-19T16:45:35Z karlosz: try compiling it
2018-06-19T16:45:41Z karlosz: itll probably give different results
2018-06-19T16:46:00Z karlosz: since then the compiler has to decide whether to treat x as special or not upfront
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2018-06-19T16:46:09Z dlowe: regardless, it's poor practice to rely on such inconsistent effects.
2018-06-19T16:46:17Z karlosz: whereas the interpreter always uses the runtime environment
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2018-06-19T16:48:17Z karlosz: the new page for clisp is here: https://gitlab.com/gnu-clisp/clisp
2018-06-19T16:48:32Z phoe: karlosz: why was clisp.org not updated to point to it?
2018-06-19T16:48:37Z karlosz: idk
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2018-06-19T16:48:43Z phoe: welp
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2018-06-19T16:49:05Z karlosz: the maintainers only recently made the switch
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2018-06-19T16:49:41Z phoe: yes, I see
2018-06-19T16:49:44Z makomo: sure enough the results are different
2018-06-19T16:50:04Z makomo: (load "ex1.lisp") != (load "ex1.fas") (after (compile-file "ex1.lisp"))
2018-06-19T16:50:20Z pjb: eval-when
2018-06-19T16:50:55Z makomo: so what have we concluded? is this acceptable behavior?
2018-06-19T16:51:21Z karlosz: the spec doesn't seem to forbid it
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2018-06-19T16:55:09Z jackdaniel: do (load "ex1")
2018-06-19T16:55:42Z jackdaniel: scratch that, my remark is irrevelant
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2018-06-19T17:03:08Z devon wonders if any implementations support coroutines
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2018-06-19T17:04:41Z jackdaniel: ECL has them planned for 16.2.0 (upcoming release)
2018-06-19T17:04:55Z makomo: neat
2018-06-19T17:04:57Z jackdaniel: I think that CMU CL has green threads, but you need to confirm that
2018-06-19T17:06:42Z Ukari: devon, try cl-generator, github.com/ukari/cl-generator, i am working on it
2018-06-19T17:07:42Z jackdaniel: I am wrong, CMUCL has native threads (Linux, x86)
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2018-06-19T17:12:40Z dlowe: CMUCL *also* has green threads, iirc
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2018-06-19T17:13:07Z dlowe: Look up the SERVE-EVENT stuff
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2018-06-19T17:14:59Z makomo: hm, what am i missing here? http://rextester.com/KWF52785
2018-06-19T17:15:07Z makomo: ignore the output for a second, i'm using SBCL
2018-06-19T17:15:37Z makomo: LOAD-ing this lisp file gives 10 10 200, but compiling it and then loading the FASL gives an error: "X is unbound"
2018-06-19T17:15:49Z makomo: for the (print x) in the first defparameter for *builder*
2018-06-19T17:16:34Z jackdaniel: dlowe: you mean in documentation? how is this relevant to green threads? you may implement serve-event without gt (but I wouldn't be suprised if cmucl has them anyway)
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2018-06-19T17:19:09Z jackdaniel: makomo: when you load a file, it is processed sequentially, toplevel form after toplevel form
2018-06-19T17:19:15Z jackdaniel: when you compile it things are quite different
2018-06-19T17:19:24Z jackdaniel: if you want to change that behavior you need to use eval-when
2018-06-19T17:20:06Z jackdaniel: but don't think too much about how it (eval-when) works in detail unless you have some time and want a good puzzle
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2018-06-19T17:47:55Z makomo: jackdaniel: i think i understand how EVAL-WHEN works because i've studied it a couple of times
2018-06-19T17:48:06Z makomo: jackdaniel: what i don't understand is what exactly is different between these two examples
2018-06-19T17:48:23Z makomo: DEFPARAMETER and DEFVAR both proclaim the symbol special at compile-time right
2018-06-19T17:48:48Z Bike: yes.
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2018-06-19T17:50:30Z makomo: hmm, does this have to do with the fact that the different stages of processing can be interleaved?
2018-06-19T17:50:39Z makomo: while with LOAD they're all sequential?
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2018-06-19T17:53:40Z Bike: Sanity check here: You restarted the image between loading and compile-file, right?
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2018-06-19T17:54:47Z Bike: Because when I compile-file and load in a fresh image I don't getan error.
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2018-06-19T17:57:59Z gendl: Hi, is anyone experienced with cl-json? I'm trying to encode a nested plist:  (json:encode-json-plist  (list :xaxis (list :visible nil)))
2018-06-19T17:58:28Z gendl: -->{"xaxis":["visible",null]}
2018-06-19T17:59:02Z gendl: so it looks like it only converts the outer plist into a JSON plist-type thingie. The inner one just becomes a JSON sequence or whatever TF they call it
2018-06-19T18:00:06Z gendl: I have a feeling I have to call json:encode-json-plist recursively somehow on the inner plists, but I'm not sure how I would make the result come out properly nested..
2018-06-19T18:00:40Z Bike: encode-json-plist presumably just calls encode-json for the values
2018-06-19T18:00:55Z Bike: and encode-json is documented to make an array for a list, unless you do the explicit encoder
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2018-06-19T18:01:23Z pjb: use a DOM.
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2018-06-19T18:02:09Z gendl: Oh yes, I see some hints about the explicit encoder here: https://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/web-tips.php
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2018-06-19T18:02:39Z gendl: pjb: I'm not sure how I would go about using a DOM...
2018-06-19T18:03:42Z Bike: hints? use the documentation http://quickdocs.org/cl-json/api
2018-06-19T18:06:02Z gendl: Bike: with-explicit-encoder is exported but undocumented.
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2018-06-19T18:06:31Z Bike: i don't know about that, but encode-json explains the layout
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2018-06-19T18:13:09Z gendl: Indeed - the docs for method encode-json talk about the guessing-encoder and explicit-encoder.  And it looks like using :object as (car S) is the same as using :plist.  Anyway thanks for the pointers, this will let me do what I need.
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2018-06-19T18:52:57Z makomo: Bike: yup, i did
2018-06-19T18:53:10Z makomo: ran it from the command line using "sbcl --load"
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2018-06-19T18:53:57Z makomo: oh hmm
2018-06-19T18:54:55Z makomo: Bike: i compiled using COMPILE-FILE and then used a separate image to load the FASL
2018-06-19T18:55:05Z makomo: that might be the problem
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2018-06-19T19:00:47Z makomo: Bike: am i not supposed to COMPILE-FILE some file and then load it later on within a fresh image?
2018-06-19T19:00:58Z Bike: no, that should be okay.
2018-06-19T19:01:02Z makomo: right.
2018-06-19T19:01:42Z Bike: i don't get an error doing that either, though.
2018-06-19T19:02:19Z makomo: Bike: must have been an error on my side. i've recompiled it and now it's ok. bleh
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2018-06-19T19:30:25Z jkordani: someone talk lispy to me.  I've been staring at microsoft word all day
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2018-06-19T19:35:36Z Bike: (omelette du fromage)
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2018-06-19T19:37:17Z White_Flame: (conth eth-exprethion)
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2018-06-19T19:37:39Z akkad put all the slack/confluence/jira/github interface commands into a CL cli. no longer have to use a browser.</lispy>
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2018-06-19T19:44:44Z devon: (loop for i below 26
2018-06-19T19:44:44Z devon:         collect (map 'string
2018-06-19T19:44:44Z devon:                       (lambda (c)
2018-06-19T19:44:44Z devon:                         (code-char (+ (char-code #\a) (mod (- (char-code c) (char-code #\a) i) 26))))
2018-06-19T19:44:44Z devon:                       "word"))
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2018-06-19T19:46:51Z Bike: please use a paste site for anything that takes more than a line
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2018-06-19T19:48:00Z devon: lol, that didn't come out as I expected.
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2018-06-19T19:56:11Z makomo: phoe: to conclude the whole discussion from today, the "error" with http://rextester.com/CQFO22548 was to assume that *builder* will refer to a compiled-function, right?
2018-06-19T19:56:16Z knobo: Is (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (lambda (..) (..))) == (defun foo (..) (..))?
2018-06-19T19:57:02Z makomo: adding a (compile nil (lambda ...)) does fix the "issue", i.e. the difference in results when the file is loaded vs. when it's compiled and then loaded (using clisp of course, sbcl gives the same results in both cases)
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2018-06-19T19:57:31Z knobo: or even (setf (symbol-function 'foo) (flet ((something (..) ..)) #'something))
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2018-06-19T20:00:15Z knobo: I can't think of anything but when evaluation occurs
2018-06-19T20:00:24Z knobo: Other then that, it's identical.
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2018-06-19T20:06:13Z Bike: knobo: defun could do a few other effects, but that's the core semantic.
2018-06-19T20:06:14Z knobo: But (setf (symbol-fucntion 'foo) (labels ((foo (..) (..))) #'foo)) is different.
2018-06-19T20:07:56Z knobo: no... it
2018-06-19T20:08:02Z knobo: it's not.
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2018-06-19T20:08:26Z knobo: return-from would not work.
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2018-06-19T20:09:30Z Bike: oh. yeah ok. throw in a block.
2018-06-19T20:09:49Z Bike: by other stuff i meant like, keeping an inline definition around, informing the compiler to avoid warnings, blabla
2018-06-19T20:10:17Z cgay: I'm finding that slime-edit-definition doesn't always work when I already have the target file open in my buffer. i.e., it works the first time, when it has to open the file, but then later if I M-. the same symbol it jumps to the wrong place in the buffer.
2018-06-19T20:10:39Z cgay: Am I holding it wrong?
2018-06-19T20:11:06Z cgay: I think, but am not sure, that it just opens the buffer and leaves POINT alone.
2018-06-19T20:12:23Z knobo: The flet would be able to do return from.
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2018-06-19T20:12:47Z Bike: knobo: yeah cos it has an implicit block.
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2018-06-19T20:16:33Z cgay: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/391
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2018-06-19T20:16:50Z knobo: cgay: I think you have to recompile the whole file if you edit parts of it (adding or removing lines).
2018-06-19T20:17:36Z knobo: or, maybe it's not that...
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2018-06-19T20:20:14Z makomo: phoe: i still don't understand why the value returned by *lambda1* is changed after defvar-ing x though
2018-06-19T20:20:57Z Bike: i haven't been able to reproduce that in sbcl
2018-06-19T20:21:00Z makomo: phoe: it makes sense that, since *builder* is an interpreted function, it might inspect x every time to check whether it's special or not and either return a closure or a function
2018-06-19T20:21:04Z Bike: do you mean in clisp?
2018-06-19T20:21:07Z makomo: Bike: yup, clisp
2018-06-19T20:21:31Z Bike: oh, well, yes. the interpreter presumably looks up whether the symbol is special at runtime.
2018-06-19T20:21:58Z makomo: Bike: this is the original example, not the one i linked to you (when i forgot to recompile the file)
2018-06-19T20:22:05Z makomo: just to make sure we're looking at the same thing
2018-06-19T20:22:18Z Bike: same principle
2018-06-19T20:22:21Z makomo: Bike: right, but why is the result of invoking *lambda1* changed as well?
2018-06-19T20:22:43Z makomo: it makes sense that the result of *builder* might be different depending on the specialness of x
2018-06-19T20:22:45Z dlowe: makomo: Have you literally spent all day on this?
2018-06-19T20:22:47Z makomo: but why is *lambda1* itself changed?
2018-06-19T20:23:07Z makomo: dlowe: well not really, but i have spent some time on it, yes :-)
2018-06-19T20:23:33Z makomo: dlowe: when learning something, one of the worst things you can do is say "meh whatever" and drop it, imo
2018-06-19T20:23:37Z Bike: The interpreter looks up whether a symbol is special before anything else, apparently
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2018-06-19T20:24:02Z dlowe: makomo: sometimes the experts will say "you're wasting your time on this trivial detail," and sometimes they're right.
2018-06-19T20:24:24Z makomo: i don't think that it's trivial though
2018-06-19T20:24:27Z makomo: maybe to someone else it is
2018-06-19T20:24:29Z dlowe: makomo: the code is open source and no one here knows the answers to the exacting detail you require
2018-06-19T20:24:33Z makomo: i like to understand the details
2018-06-19T20:24:41Z White_Flame: the compiler has to output machine code for the lambda, based on what it knows
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2018-06-19T20:24:54Z White_Flame: you're compiling 2 different circumstances
2018-06-19T20:25:00Z dlowe: so I think your best bet (without any irony) is to actually dive into the compiler code for each to see why there's a difference
2018-06-19T20:25:04Z makomo: Bike: i guess. so even the lambdas that are returned inspect x over and over again
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2018-06-19T20:25:17Z Bike: yeah, i mean, that's what an interpreted function is like.
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2018-06-19T20:25:51Z Bike: evaluating a (lambda ...) might literally consist of just copying the body into an interpreted function object, and not examining it in any way.
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2018-06-19T20:25:58Z makomo: i guess it makes sense, but i thought that since in the first case a closure is returned, that it would just be "hardcoded" within the function
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2018-06-19T20:26:11Z makomo: but i guess a better model would be that it would evaluate X in its captured lexical environment
2018-06-19T20:26:21Z makomo: which is the proper model anyway i guess
2018-06-19T20:26:35Z makomo: but then when doing the evaluation it finds that x is special and bla bla
2018-06-19T20:27:55Z Bike: it is sort of an ambiguous case though. i can imagine interpreters that would treat it like a lexical binding.
2018-06-19T20:28:46Z makomo: mhm. so in the end it's implementation defined? and with compiled functions it is guaranteed that X will be considered either a lexical or a dynamic binding, depending on the specialness of the symbol X, as per the clause you linked, right?
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2018-06-19T20:29:31Z Bike: it is for compile-file. with compile i'm not sure, but probably the same
2018-06-19T20:31:21Z White_Flame: SBCL does at least give warnings when you redefine some assumption that it baked in previously
2018-06-19T20:31:29Z makomo: Bike: any reason for the uncertainty or?
2018-06-19T20:31:56Z Bike: i just don't remember all the details of teh semantic constraints
2018-06-19T20:32:12Z makomo: ah, ok
2018-06-19T20:32:16Z Bike: whether a compiler could hypothetically be really dumb
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2018-06-19T20:36:07Z White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbb.htm
2018-06-19T20:36:21Z White_Flame: the compiler does not appear to be mandated to bake in compile-time knowledge of specialness
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2018-06-19T20:37:48Z White_Flame: ah, but in 3.2.2.3: "Special proclamations for dynamic variables must be made in the compilation environment. Any binding for which there is no special declaration or proclamation in the compilation environment is treated by the compiler as a lexical binding."
2018-06-19T20:37:51Z makomo: White_Flame: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bbc.htm
2018-06-19T20:37:54Z makomo: yes, indeed
2018-06-19T20:37:56Z makomo: that's what Bike linked
2018-06-19T20:38:25Z makomo: so with compiled functions it's perfectly specified what happens
2018-06-19T20:38:25Z White_Flame: ok, that was a ways back in the log
2018-06-19T20:38:35Z makomo: with interpreted functions, a variety of behaviors might be observed
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2018-06-19T20:40:16Z White_Flame: Bike's last comment was about a compiler, so I thought that was the target
2018-06-19T20:44:19Z makomo: does (compile nil (lambda (x) (lambda () x))) ensure that the functions returned by the inner lambda will be compiled too?
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2018-06-19T20:47:15Z Bike: yes.
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2018-06-19T20:49:07Z makomo: and (lambda (x) (compile nil (lambda () x))) is undefined behavior?
2018-06-19T20:49:23Z makomo: "The consequences are undefined if the lexical environment surrounding the function to be compiled contains any bindings other than those for macros, symbol macros, or declarations."
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2018-06-19T21:52:11Z knobo: Would a function created by def be garbage collected (defmacro def () (let ((n (gensym))) `(defun ,n () (format nil "t"))))
2018-06-19T21:52:29Z knobo: Or would calling (def) eat memory
2018-06-19T21:52:46Z knobo: every time it's called
2018-06-19T21:53:03Z phoe: knobo: wait a second
2018-06-19T21:53:07Z knobo: Since ,n is not interned.
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2018-06-19T21:53:31Z phoe: I think the global environment will contain a reference to that function
2018-06-19T21:53:55Z phoe: so it will stay around, even if you have no real means of accessing that function after it's defined.
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2018-06-19T21:56:54Z knobo: Can I look at the global environment?
2018-06-19T21:57:01Z aeth: If it's in the global environment it has to still be there.
2018-06-19T21:57:06Z aeth: The global environment never goes away.
2018-06-19T21:57:26Z phoe: knobo: only via implementation-defined APIs, if any.
2018-06-19T21:57:32Z phoe: The standard does not specify anything like that.
2018-06-19T21:57:55Z phoe: Theoretically, the environment object could contain a weak hash table or something.
2018-06-19T21:58:16Z phoe: Like, if a symbol is no longer accessible, then all functions and variables named after that symbol may be collected.
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2018-06-19T21:58:47Z phoe: But I have no idea if such a thing happens. You could try checking it out yourself by defining a finalizer on the created function object and see if it ever gets triggered.
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2018-06-19T22:03:05Z knobo: Interesting to think about these things.
2018-06-19T22:03:11Z knobo: an dlearn
2018-06-19T22:03:17Z knobo: and learn
2018-06-19T22:03:44Z knobo: But not so useful right now.
2018-06-19T22:05:12Z White_Flame: I would put a small wager on it getting collected
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2018-06-19T22:13:18Z pierpa: you could call def repeatedly and observe the amount of free memory
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2018-06-19T22:13:33Z pierpa: not a proof, but a good hint
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2018-06-19T22:17:43Z pierpa: in the implementation I'm using, they get collected.
2018-06-19T22:18:37Z pierpa: or maybe they aren't. wait a minute...
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2018-06-19T22:20:17Z knobo: (sb-ext:finalize (symbol-function (def)) (lambda (&rest a) (format t "yes~a~%" a)))
2018-06-19T22:20:41Z knobo: and then run gc
2018-06-19T22:20:46Z knobo: prints yes
2018-06-19T22:20:49Z pjb: There's no reason to keep those gensym'ed functions.
2018-06-19T22:20:59Z White_Flame cashes in his small wager
2018-06-19T22:21:20Z pierpa: I meant, in the implementation I'm using, they don't get collected.
2018-06-19T22:21:44Z knobo: (gc :full t)
2018-06-19T22:21:52Z knobo: pierpa: which one?
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2018-06-19T22:22:19Z White_Flame: also, check *inferior-lisp* in case the output is threaded outside of slime
2018-06-19T22:22:44Z pierpa: knobo: I can't talk about it, as it is off topic here.
2018-06-19T22:23:22Z knobo: no it's not.
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2018-06-20T00:34:09Z pillton: Bike: That spooky action thing is weird.
2018-06-20T00:34:19Z Bike: it is a little weird.
2018-06-20T00:34:41Z Bike: the reason it happens is that docstrings are associated with underlying functions rather than closures, of course.
2018-06-20T00:34:58Z Bike: which i think is obviously reasonable except for this where it's a little weird.
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2018-06-20T00:41:16Z pillton: I am not sure I understand the difference between your example and https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/824#824.
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2018-06-20T00:43:50Z Bike: In my example the two functions almost certainly have the same underlying, eh, code object.
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2018-06-20T00:47:48Z Bike: they could in yours too i guess, but i doubt anyone would bother
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2018-06-20T00:49:22Z ealfonso: perhaps not a good idea, but in defstruct is it possible to spcify a default init form that uses a previously defined slot? is there a way to access "this"?
2018-06-20T00:50:00Z Bike: there isn't, but you could define a constructor that uses another parameter as a default
2018-06-20T00:50:20Z aeth: Whenever I do anything fancy with struct initialization, I tell it to make the constructor a %make-foo and I write my own make-foo constructor using %make-foo
2018-06-20T00:50:29Z Bike: or that.
2018-06-20T00:51:34Z devon: (format nil "~,6F" 3738064606071093/1000000) => "3738064600.000000" ; I'd prefer "3738064606.071093"
2018-06-20T00:52:23Z Bike: don't use floats?
2018-06-20T00:52:25Z aeth: it's probably doing (float 3738064606071093/1000000) under the hood
2018-06-20T00:52:34Z aeth: that gives me 3.7380646e9
2018-06-20T00:52:37Z aeth: You want a double float
2018-06-20T00:52:46Z aeth: Manually do (float 3738064606071093/1000000 1d0)
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2018-06-20T00:53:24Z aeth: (format nil "~,6F" (float 3738064606071093/1000000 1d0)) => "3738064606.071093"
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2018-06-20T00:54:27Z aeth: #'float is a bit awkward. It defaults to your default float format (in your case, and in most cases, that's single-float), but if you want to use another float format you have to provide some number of that format, in this case 1d0 (the "d0" instead of "e0" forces it to be a double)
2018-06-20T00:55:30Z aeth: You can also do (coerce foo 'double-float) instead
2018-06-20T00:56:14Z ealfonso: ok thanks Bike aeth
2018-06-20T00:57:09Z aeth: Actually, apparently the default is always single-float. The difference between #'float and #'coerce is that #'float won't coerce something that is already a float.
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2018-06-20T00:59:39Z Bike: you might want to consider laying out the decimal yourself. it's kind of a pain, but it beats weird rounding unintuitiveness.
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2018-06-20T01:00:34Z Bike: like (multiple-value-call #'format nil "~d.~d" (floor 3738064606071093 1000000)) i mean.
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2018-06-20T01:01:00Z Bike: ~d.~6,'0d
2018-06-20T01:01:59Z aeth: I was about to say that that would eat the leading 0s
2018-06-20T01:02:59Z aeth: If you do something like this you should probably write a unit test that compares it to the float version. They could differ, but if the decimal part differs by an order of magnitude or more, that's probably the leading 0s bug popping up or something similar
2018-06-20T01:03:18Z devon: Thanks, (format nil "~,6F" (coerce 3738064606000000/1000000 'double-float)) sure beats (let* ((n 3738064606071093/1000000) (s 1000000) (sn (* s n))) (multiple-value-bind (q r) (floor sn s) (format nil "~D.~6,'0D" q r)))
2018-06-20T01:03:33Z Bike: not fair, i made it a oneliner!
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2018-06-20T01:03:46Z Bike: if you already have a ratio you can just do (numerator ...) and (denominator ...)
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2018-06-20T01:04:45Z aeth: yeah, most of the time you use multiple-value-bind, you probably actually want multiple-value-call
2018-06-20T01:04:58Z Bike: i wouldn't go that far.
2018-06-20T01:05:13Z aeth: Seemed to be > 50% for me
2018-06-20T01:05:14Z Bike: or rather i'd say that's actually false. i just didn't want to write too much.
2018-06-20T01:05:29Z aeth: If you know about m-v-c obviously it'll be different percentage
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2018-06-20T01:15:03Z pillton: Bike: Well, I think that documentation sharing thing is wrong. Imagine the surprises someone would have when using the programmatic interface to construct an environment. Secondly, an implementation may consider "compressing" code in fasls by sharing code objects.
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2018-06-20T01:16:27Z pillton: Having said that, I am going to file it under apathy.
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2018-06-20T01:18:43Z Bike: mhm
2018-06-20T01:20:24Z devon: THX² Bike, aeth: (let ((n 3738064606071093/1000000)) (string= (format nil "~,6F" (coerce n 'double-float)) (let ((s 1000000)) (multiple-value-call #'format nil "~D.~6,'0D" (floor (* s n) s))))) => T
2018-06-20T01:22:53Z Bike: if you have a fraction already just do (format nil "~d~6,'0d" (numerator n) (denominator n))
2018-06-20T01:23:04Z Bike: no, wait. that makes no sense.
2018-06-20T01:23:06Z Bike: nevermind.
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2018-06-20T01:25:33Z aeth: devon: you wouldn't want string=, though, you'd want to find where the . is and then parse-integer and then divide the larger one by 10 until they're of the same base-10 length (but not quite beacuse you also have to take into account leading 0s) and then compare them.
2018-06-20T01:25:41Z aeth: Because they could be subtly different due to floating point
2018-06-20T01:25:57Z aeth: This is a case where the test is harder than writing the thing
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2018-06-20T01:27:30Z aeth: Bike's version will prefix 0 for leading 0's to get it up to 6, but if the part after the decimal point is longer than 6, it will display them all. Afaik, the double float version will always cut it off after 6 decimal places after the decimal point. So the lengths could differ.
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2018-06-20T01:42:38Z devon: Printing present-day universal times to µs, DOUBLE-FLOAT-EPSILON seems perilously close to dropping a low order bit.  Perhaps it's time to define ~:F
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2018-06-20T01:52:33Z devon: (format nil "~,,-6F, ~:*~,6,-6F" 1) => "1.0, 0.000001" ; is this a bug in CCL or a bug in the spec?
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2018-06-20T02:03:21Z beginner_supreme: Not sure I understand destructuring-bind vs multiple-value-bind.
2018-06-20T02:04:54Z Bike: destructuring bind takes lists apart. multiple value bind takes multiple values apart
2018-06-20T02:07:36Z aeth: destructuring bind is most useful in macros. In fact, the lambda list of macros kind of builds it in to save a few levels of destructuring-binds.
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2018-06-20T02:08:36Z aeth: a macro's lambda list might be (name (x y) &body body) and that's equivalent to it being (name parameters &body body) with a destructuring-bind in the macro of (destructuring-bind (x y) parameters ...)
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2018-06-20T02:11:20Z aeth: So you're ensuring that a list matches some pattern, and binding the elements to that pattern. in (destructuring-bind (x y) (list 1 2) ...) x will be 1 and y will be 2. And (list) will be an error and (list 1 2 3) will be an error
2018-06-20T02:12:43Z aeth: The structure in destructuring-bind can be complicated like (x (y &optional z) (u (v &rest w)) &key a b c)
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2018-06-20T02:13:37Z aeth: With multiple-value-bind you're just dealing with a bunch of values. so (multiple-value-bind (a b c) (values 1 2 3) (+ a b c)) => 6
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2018-06-20T02:19:53Z beginner_supreme: Thank you guys
2018-06-20T02:21:38Z beginner_supreme: ->aeth
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2018-06-20T03:56:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-20T04:19:52Z beginner_supreme: good morning beach
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2018-06-20T04:25:25Z beach: beginner_supreme: So how is learning Common Lisp going?
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2018-06-20T04:30:29Z beginner_supreme: It's going well. Getting more used to it
2018-06-20T04:30:46Z beach: Excellent!
2018-06-20T04:31:04Z beginner_supreme: Other high level languages are beginning to feel lacking tbh
2018-06-20T04:31:21Z beginner_supreme: Idk
2018-06-20T04:31:24Z beach: Yeah, that's a phenomenon that many of us have observed.
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2018-06-20T04:34:36Z beginner_supreme: Started learning emacs as well.
2018-06-20T04:35:30Z beach: Good.  Then, if you use ERC for IRC discussions, you can use Emacs abbrevs, so that when you type "tbh" or "idk", they will be automatically expanded.
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2018-06-20T04:36:21Z beach: For instance, I have abbrevs for "Common Lisp", "Common Lisp HyperSpec", "Good morning everyone!", "(first) Climacs", "Second Climacs", "first-class global environments", "(admittedly small) family", etc. etc.
2018-06-20T04:37:13Z beach: Saves A LOT of typing, and makes it less necessary to explain to others what you are trying to say.
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2018-06-20T04:40:26Z beginner_supreme: That sounds interesting
2018-06-20T04:41:10Z beginner_supreme: Excited to try out slime soon.
2018-06-20T04:41:29Z beach: I once calculated how many hours per month my abbrevs for writing email saved me.  It was considerable.  For some reason, I am one of the few people I know who use Emacs abbrevs.  Strange to me.
2018-06-20T04:41:38Z beach: Oh, yes, SLIME is a must.
2018-06-20T04:41:52Z beach: It is not fantastic, but it's the best we have.
2018-06-20T04:42:15Z White_Flame: mentioning "abbrevs" multiple times in your literal text here is ironic
2018-06-20T04:42:42Z pillton didn't know Emacs had support for abbreviations.
2018-06-20T04:43:02Z beach: pillton: Wow!
2018-06-20T04:43:07Z beach: White_Flame: Why is that?
2018-06-20T04:43:49Z White_Flame: because you're talking about full non-abbreviated text appearing in what you communicate
2018-06-20T04:44:14Z White_Flame: as you talk about abbrevs :0
2018-06-20T04:44:15Z White_Flame: :)
2018-06-20T04:44:19Z beach: White_Flame: It's a technical term.  I guess you didn't know about them either. http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Abbrevs.html
2018-06-20T04:44:40Z White_Flame: yes, I gathered that.  It just comes across as unintentionally humorous
2018-06-20T04:45:28Z beginner_supreme: Is there a document anywhere describing the swank protocol that slime uses? Can't seem to find an official doc
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2018-06-20T04:46:52Z beach: I also use Emacs abbrevs to fix some of my common typos.  Like, my fingers seem unable to type "the", and they type "teh" instead.  So I have an abbrev that "expands", the latter into the former.  Same thing for "language" and "language".
2018-06-20T04:47:14Z White_Flame: seems to be working well
2018-06-20T04:47:22Z beach: It saves me several minutes per day to avoid having to backspace and fix.
2018-06-20T04:48:37Z beach: Er, "language" and "langauge".  It is hard to prevent Emacs from fixing. :)
2018-06-20T04:49:01Z White_Flame: I really need pythong => python at my shell
2018-06-20T04:49:37Z beach: I can see that.
2018-06-20T04:49:46Z beach: You would have to define a shell alias for that.
2018-06-20T04:49:56Z jach[m]: Have you been hypnotized by the Hasselhoff as well?
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2018-06-20T04:55:52Z devon: beginner_supreme: The swank protocol is so deficient, I'd not even look unless you plan to replace it.
2018-06-20T04:56:20Z pillton: devon: How is it deficient?
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2018-06-20T05:01:10Z beginner_supreme: I'm curious to know too now lol
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2018-06-20T05:02:27Z White_Flame: I'm offering money to anybody who will refactor SLIME such that the elisp portion is hosted by swank, allowing multiple connections to different deployed versions simultaneously
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2018-06-20T05:03:51Z White_Flame: with the initially emacs-side code simply being a bootstrap to connect & download elisp
2018-06-20T05:04:06Z White_Flame: local to the connection
2018-06-20T05:05:05Z shangul: White_Flame, you should offer something more attractive than money
2018-06-20T05:05:08Z shangul: like ice-cream!
2018-06-20T05:05:35Z White_Flame: the ice cream is money flavor
2018-06-20T05:05:59Z White_Flame: (tastes like a million hands have rubbed it)
2018-06-20T05:06:07Z pillton: White_Flame: That would be fun considering emacs only has a single namespace.
2018-06-20T05:06:23Z White_Flame: right, it'd all have to be lambdas stored in a lookup list or something
2018-06-20T05:06:29Z shangul: but younger people don't understand what money is. they understand what ice cream and chocolate is
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2018-06-20T05:07:37Z White_Flame: shangul: you show your age.  This is the place to reference avocado toast
2018-06-20T05:07:50Z shangul: my age?
2018-06-20T05:07:56Z beginner_supreme: Avocado is to be toasted?
2018-06-20T05:07:59Z shangul: I'm 8 years old
2018-06-20T05:08:15Z shangul: and I'll never go upper than 8
2018-06-20T05:08:26Z White_Flame: but seriously, if anybody wants to tackle SLIME like that, PM me
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2018-06-20T05:09:17Z beginner_supreme: One must first learn to PM.
2018-06-20T05:09:18Z beginner_supreme: <-
2018-06-20T05:10:00Z jackdaniel: beginner_supreme: you type /query White_Flame
2018-06-20T05:11:08Z beginner_supreme: Oh, thanks
2018-06-20T05:11:17Z shangul: jackdaniel, isn't that "/msg"?
2018-06-20T05:11:42Z beginner_supreme: It seems the difference is that /msg cannot be seen by anyone else, but query is visible.
2018-06-20T05:12:03Z shangul: beginner_supreme, visible to whom?
2018-06-20T05:12:12Z beginner_supreme: The channel I presume
2018-06-20T05:12:19Z shangul: beginner_supreme, no it isn't
2018-06-20T05:12:45Z shangul: beginner_supreme, query in my client opens a new private window and optionally sends a message
2018-06-20T05:12:51Z shangul:  /msg just sends a message
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2018-06-20T05:13:56Z jackdaniel: msg sends a message, query opens a new window (like a channel)
2018-06-20T05:14:06Z beginner_supreme: I see, you're right
2018-06-20T05:14:32Z shangul: however I don't remember if query was a standard IRC command
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2018-06-20T05:15:04Z jackdaniel: I don't know, but unless it doesn't work for him it is a valid answer ;-) /me moves along
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2018-06-20T05:19:23Z shangul: How to tell dotimes to count from 1 instead of 0?
2018-06-20T05:19:38Z beach: shangul: Use LOOP instead.
2018-06-20T05:19:50Z beach: shangul: (loop for i from 1 to ... do ...)
2018-06-20T05:20:02Z shangul: okay so no way to tell it. I'll use if to not do anything if it was 0
2018-06-20T05:20:19Z beach: No, don't do that.
2018-06-20T05:20:22Z shangul: ?
2018-06-20T05:20:22Z beach: Use LOOP instead.
2018-06-20T05:20:38Z beach: shangul: Why do you want to start at 1?
2018-06-20T05:21:07Z shangul: because I should loop from 1 to n not from 0 to n
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2018-06-20T05:21:28Z beach: Fine.
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2018-06-20T05:21:40Z shangul: I each time do (/ n i) so what will happen if it was zero?
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2018-06-20T05:22:13Z shangul: beach, Yet I don't know why should I use "loop" instead of "if" and "dotimes"
2018-06-20T05:22:29Z jackdaniel: shangul: loop provides you mechanism to do what you want
2018-06-20T05:22:31Z beach: shangul: Because LOOP would be more idiomatic.
2018-06-20T05:22:36Z jackdaniel: dotimes doesn't do that
2018-06-20T05:22:45Z shangul: okay...
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2018-06-20T05:23:24Z jackdaniel: on the other hand, if you are interested in your own looping construct, I'd argue that building your macro upon DO is more readable
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2018-06-20T05:23:48Z jackdaniel: s/looping/iteration/
2018-06-20T05:23:56Z beach: jackdaniel: I think that would be premature in shangul's case.
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2018-06-20T05:24:14Z shangul: I'm going with loop
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2018-06-20T05:24:53Z shangul: I'm leave and I'm not gonna lock the screen. because I know no one here would be able to work with i3 :D
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2018-06-20T05:25:52Z flip214: minion: memo for Fare: https://bbt.legi.cash/ has a typo: "Solution: Extract Everything from a Same Spec" => "*the* Same Spec"
2018-06-20T05:25:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
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2018-06-20T05:26:35Z beginner_supreme: Loop is a dsl for looping/iterating. Quite useful, I haven't learned all the t
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2018-06-20T05:28:29Z beginner_supreme: Good night all!
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2018-06-20T05:29:11Z flip214: too late to point to ITERATE
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2018-06-20T07:42:32Z shangul: flip214, why not using memoserv?
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2018-06-20T07:52:37Z beach: shangul: Because minion is written in Common Lisp?  What is memoserv written in?
2018-06-20T07:53:02Z shangul: no idea. but it does your job anyway
2018-06-20T07:53:24Z shangul: Could I leave message for non registered users with minion?
2018-06-20T07:54:23Z beach: I think so.
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2018-06-20T07:56:26Z beach: minion: memo for unregistereduser: Hello
2018-06-20T07:56:26Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell unregistereduser when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-06-20T07:56:37Z unregistereduser: Hello minion.
2018-06-20T07:56:37Z minion: unregistereduser, memo from beach: Hello
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2018-06-20T07:57:11Z beach: shangul: Seems to have worked.
2018-06-20T07:58:00Z shangul: MemoServ sends just to registered users
2018-06-20T07:58:20Z beach: Good for it.
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2018-06-20T08:11:05Z xificurC: aeth: why only defmacro supports this destructuring? Is there a particular reason (defun foo ((x y) &rest z) ...) isn't implemented in the standard but it is for defmacro?
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2018-06-20T08:16:35Z shrdlu68: xificurC: You can use destructuring-bind.
2018-06-20T08:17:08Z xificurC: shrdlu68: of course you can. How does that relate to my question?
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2018-06-20T08:22:12Z jackdaniel: xificurC: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/J9SXofadB2c for a discussion about this
2018-06-20T08:26:28Z shrdlu68: xificurC: I suppose what I meant was "because you could always use destructuring-bind", but I really have no concrete rationale.
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2018-06-20T08:29:43Z xificurC: jackdaniel: thanks
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2018-06-20T08:30:36Z shrdlu68: Could it be because of #'apply? That's my best guess.
2018-06-20T08:32:02Z shka: shrdlu68: i don't think that destructuring in function lambda list is a good idea to be honest
2018-06-20T08:32:29Z shrdlu68: If function took destructuring lambda lists rather than ordinary lambda lists, there would be no way to pass lists to functions, would there?
2018-06-20T08:33:02Z shrdlu68: I mean through #'apply.
2018-06-20T08:33:03Z jackdaniel: so you say it is impossible to pass lists to macros? I highly recommend reading thread linked above
2018-06-20T08:36:40Z shrdlu68: Hmm I've confused myself.
2018-06-20T08:39:35Z _death: maybe because it promotes inefficient interfaces
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2018-06-20T08:41:22Z jackdaniel: that's true that adding destructuring step to functions could hurt runtime performance
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2018-06-20T08:44:46Z shangul: code review request for idiomatic Lisp: https://apaste.info/Trw2
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2018-06-20T08:45:17Z jackdaniel: let* at the beginning is bad indented, you put first variable in the same line as the operator
2018-06-20T08:45:52Z shangul: https://apaste.info/yTAu
2018-06-20T08:45:54Z jackdaniel: there is no need for (n-divisors ()) , you can replace it with simply n-divisors (it defaults to ()), also if you insist, NIL is more readable than ()  [IMHO]
2018-06-20T08:46:00Z _death: an extensible pattern matcher would let you extract just what you need from whatever kind of object so may be a better choice, but then there are various possible solutions and it's not something that was available to everyone historically
2018-06-20T08:46:25Z jackdaniel: instead of (if test (progn …)) [it is one-branch if] use when which has implicit progn
2018-06-20T08:46:28Z jackdaniel: (when test …)
2018-06-20T08:46:57Z jackdaniel: other things seem fine at a glance
2018-06-20T08:47:29Z jackdaniel: regarding this mod, you may also check it with (zerop (mod …)), but that's opinionated remark, nothing wrong with =
2018-06-20T08:48:11Z shangul: NIL and empty list are the same?
2018-06-20T08:48:25Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-06-20T08:48:33Z shangul: and what do you mean by "one branch if"? if without else part?
2018-06-20T08:48:41Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-06-20T08:49:55Z jackdaniel: also seeing how you do two consecutive pushes, you could replace them with (setf n-divisors (list* (/ n i) i n-divisors)), but that's also a nitpick which is opinionated
2018-06-20T08:50:36Z jackdaniel: list* creates a list with all elements, where last function argument is treated as list's tail
2018-06-20T08:50:44Z jackdaniel: just like in (cons a foo) foo is treated as list's tail
2018-06-20T08:51:31Z beach: jackdaniel: The advice about replacing (n-divisors ()) is not good.  It should be replaced by (n-divisors '()) instead.
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2018-06-20T08:51:42Z beach: shangul: The advice about replacing (n-divisors ()) is not good.  It should be replaced by (n-divisors '()) instead.
2018-06-20T08:51:59Z shangul: https://apaste.info/Pnuo
2018-06-20T08:52:02Z shangul: beach, why?
2018-06-20T08:52:08Z beach: shangul: Using just n-divisors tells the person reading your code that you are going to assign to it before using it.
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2018-06-20T08:52:27Z beach: shangul: Using () is not idiomatic because it is only used in code to indicate empty parameter lists.
2018-06-20T08:52:49Z beach: shangul: Similarly, using NIL means that you are initializing it to the false Boolean value or to a default value.
2018-06-20T08:53:06Z beach: shangul: And 'NIL means you are initializing it to the symbol NIL.
2018-06-20T08:53:18Z beach: shangul: Only '() means you are initializing it to the empty list.
2018-06-20T08:53:32Z shangul: what is difference between '() and ()?
2018-06-20T08:53:43Z jackdaniel: '() may be considered as artificial as using eq instead of eql, so it is a matter of opinion
2018-06-20T08:54:11Z beach: shangul: () is replaced by the symbol NIL by the reader, so () and NIL mean the same to the compiler.
2018-06-20T08:54:28Z shangul: what about '() and ()?
2018-06-20T08:54:30Z beach: shangul: When evaluated, both () and '() evaluate to NIL.
2018-06-20T08:54:45Z beach: shangul: But the message to the person reading your code is different.
2018-06-20T08:55:01Z beach: shangul: () means an empty parameter list as in (defun f () ...)
2018-06-20T08:55:08Z beach: shangul: '() means an empty list.
2018-06-20T08:55:18Z _death: shangul: ' is just a shorthand for (quote ...), so the first reads as (quote ()) and the second ().. they both evaluate to the same thing, but the first indicates to the programmer that you expect the thing to be evaluated to the empty list
2018-06-20T08:55:36Z jdz: Also, it is inconsistent if for whatever reason one wants to pre-populate the list, in which case it would have to be quoted.
2018-06-20T08:55:40Z beach: jackdaniel: I totally disagree.
2018-06-20T08:55:52Z jackdaniel: I guessed so much
2018-06-20T08:56:19Z beach: There is a very different message to the person reading the code, and that person should know as soon as possible what is going on.
2018-06-20T08:56:59Z jackdaniel: I would hardly confuse () with parameter list when being initial value in let
2018-06-20T08:57:20Z beach: shangul: You should use the contribution slime-indentation and put the DO LOOP keyword first on the line where the (IF is.  Or rather where the (WHEN will be.
2018-06-20T08:57:31Z beach: jackdaniel: Good for you.  Others would.
2018-06-20T08:57:47Z shangul: <jackdaniel> also seeing how you do two consecutive pushes, you could replace them with (setf n-divisors (list* (/ n i) i n-divisors)), but that's also a nitpick which is opinionated
2018-06-20T08:57:50Z shangul: What about this?
2018-06-20T08:58:02Z beach: shangul: Also use (zerop (mod n i)) instead of (= (mod n i) 0).
2018-06-20T08:58:17Z beach: shangul: That's a very general rule: use the most specific construct that will do the trick.
2018-06-20T08:58:42Z shangul: okay
2018-06-20T08:58:56Z shangul: what about pushing to the list?
2018-06-20T08:59:07Z beach: That's fine.
2018-06-20T08:59:19Z _death: there is a name for the pattern (zerop (mod n i)) .. so I'd use a named function for it.. say divisible-by-p
2018-06-20T08:59:20Z beach: ... as long as you initialize it with '(). :)
2018-06-20T08:59:38Z shangul: I'm pushing more than one element in a time
2018-06-20T08:59:44Z shangul: perhaps a better way?
2018-06-20T09:00:12Z beach: shangul: jackdaniel suggested an alternative.
2018-06-20T09:00:25Z shangul: which one's better or more idiomatic?
2018-06-20T09:00:37Z beach: Both solutions are a bit clunky I think.  I have no personal preference.
2018-06-20T09:00:46Z shangul: jackdaniel, any you?
2018-06-20T09:00:51Z shangul: and*
2018-06-20T09:01:19Z jackdaniel: idiomatic has no real meaning to me. for beginners one way is idiomatic, for more advanced programmers other one is. it is very nicely explained in "learn ruby the hard way"
2018-06-20T09:01:31Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't suggest it if I didn't consider it "better"
2018-06-20T09:01:40Z shangul: okay
2018-06-20T09:02:06Z jackdaniel: but I'm sure there is some crowd of 'others' who would find it worse
2018-06-20T09:02:29Z _death: since you are using loop anyway, you could just use loop clauses WHEN and COLLECT
2018-06-20T09:02:47Z shangul: I should read more about this loop thing
2018-06-20T09:02:52Z beach: _death: Very good idea.
2018-06-20T09:03:07Z makomo: what are the guidelines for naming CLOS accessors? i can't help but think that "process-context-instruction-pointer" is too verbose :^/
2018-06-20T09:03:15Z makomo: the class is named process-context
2018-06-20T09:03:19Z jackdaniel: loop is another interesting thing – some consider it being very lispy and others consider it being not lispy at all :)
2018-06-20T09:03:31Z beach: makomo: I think it is a horrible idea to use the class name as a prefix.  So I don't.
2018-06-20T09:03:51Z beach: makomo: It gets silly when there is a lot of inheritance.
2018-06-20T09:03:53Z makomo: beach: so if the accessor has a really short name, like "delayed", you just let it be?
2018-06-20T09:03:57Z makomo: yeah, true
2018-06-20T09:04:00Z jackdaniel: makomo: imagine it is a function having opaque argument, forget about the class thing
2018-06-20T09:04:04Z jackdaniel: and name accessor accordingly
2018-06-20T09:04:07Z beach: makomo: Yes, I just let it be.
2018-06-20T09:04:26Z jackdaniel: in future you may consider replacing it with a method
2018-06-20T09:04:31Z makomo: i have an even shorter one, "spec"
2018-06-20T09:04:50Z makomo: jackdaniel: mhm
2018-06-20T09:04:58Z beach: makomo: Take (sheet-parent stream), for instance.  It seems silly to use an accessor for a sheet on a stream.  But it's valid CLIM code.
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2018-06-20T09:05:07Z _death: shangul: you could also separate the algorithm from the printing of the results.. so you'd do something like (format t "Sum of divisors: ~A~%" (sum (divisors n)))
2018-06-20T09:05:42Z shangul: _death, in this case I don't think it's necessary
2018-06-20T09:05:45Z imjacobclark: could anybody help me understand why when encoding a list with cl-json my variable path ends up encoded as a literal string?  (print (json:encode-json '#( ( ("bar" . path) (baz . #\!)))))
2018-06-20T09:05:55Z makomo: beach: i see. is that because stream inherits from sheet?
2018-06-20T09:06:01Z shangul: _death, because it's a small simple problem with a short code
2018-06-20T09:06:01Z beach: Yes.
2018-06-20T09:06:05Z beach: makomo: Yes.
2018-06-20T09:06:20Z _death: shangul: in this case, it could be a bunch of PROG and SETQ since it's a very small snippet of no consequence.. but you asked for stylistic advice
2018-06-20T09:06:26Z makomo: i guess i'll drop the prefixes then. i found them too verbose anyway.
2018-06-20T09:06:39Z shangul: _death, yes you are right
2018-06-20T09:06:49Z beach: makomo: Most people don't care that the slot and the accessor has the same name.
2018-06-20T09:06:55Z shka: imjacobclark: this looks like bug, but what did you expect?
2018-06-20T09:07:09Z beach: makomo: I personally dislike that, because I don't want client code to use SLOT-VALUE and I want to make that very clear.
2018-06-20T09:07:12Z shka: json has no notion of lisp pair
2018-06-20T09:07:32Z shka: maybe you should take this to the bug tracker
2018-06-20T09:07:54Z beach: makomo: So I prefix the slot name with `%' which traditionally means "internal" or "dangerous".
2018-06-20T09:08:05Z scymtym: makomo: beach's suggestion works best when combined with liberal use of packages (not in the :use sense). so e.g. my-compiler.ast:successor and my-compiler.cfg:successor instead of my-compiler:ast-parent and my-compiler:cfg-parent
2018-06-20T09:08:21Z imjacobclark: shka: so given (print (json:encode-json '#( ((foo . (1 2 3)) (bar . path) (baz . #\!)) "quux" 4/17 4.25 ))) I got an output of [{"foo":[1,2,3],"bar":"path","baz":"!"},"quux",0.23529412,4.25]
2018-06-20T09:08:34Z imjacobclark: where i actually expected the string "path" to be the value of the variable path, e.g "hello world"
2018-06-20T09:08:41Z imjacobclark: and not the literal variable name, which is what I got
2018-06-20T09:08:43Z makomo: beach: i see. and you do that for all of the slots, all the time?
2018-06-20T09:09:09Z beach: makomo: Yes, I do.  I always want to go through the accessor.
2018-06-20T09:09:11Z jdz: This has not been an option? https://lpaste.net/5972552955990114304
2018-06-20T09:09:37Z beach: makomo: That allows me to create internal protocols that can use the CLOS machinery with auxiliary methods.
2018-06-20T09:10:26Z makomo: scymtym: i see. so creating packages that provide additional context. but wouldn't that get verbose quickly as well?
2018-06-20T09:10:45Z makomo: i guess you can always USE the package if you need to cut down on the length temporarily
2018-06-20T09:10:55Z beach: makomo: It's the other way around.  If you don't do it, your code will quickly become a mess of mixed symbols.
2018-06-20T09:10:58Z xificurC: shangul: you don't use n-sqr, so remove it. I would probably write (let* ((n (parse-integer (read-line t))) (divisors (for ... collect i collect (/ i n)...  and then print. No need to push or setf when you are collecting into a fresh list anyway
2018-06-20T09:11:12Z scymtym: makomo: to some extent. that's why many people want package-local nicknames
2018-06-20T09:11:18Z xificurC: not for, but (loop for ... ) of course
2018-06-20T09:11:19Z beach: makomo: I have stopped using :USE for packages other than COMMON-LISP.
2018-06-20T09:11:32Z beach: makomo: Because when you :USE, you commit to future changes to the package.
2018-06-20T09:11:35Z shangul: xificurC, I've done in the latest version
2018-06-20T09:11:53Z shangul: xificurC, well just the sqrt thing
2018-06-20T09:11:56Z jdz: shangul: There's my paste for your consideration, too.
2018-06-20T09:12:02Z beach: makomo: And yes, scymtym is right, using package-local nicknames help a lot.
2018-06-20T09:12:11Z shangul: jdz, which?
2018-06-20T09:12:15Z jdz: https://lpaste.net/5972552955990114304
2018-06-20T09:12:25Z makomo: beach: mhm, good point. so then you import the symbols that you need instead?
2018-06-20T09:12:41Z makomo: or do you just use "cl:..."?
2018-06-20T09:12:49Z beach: I do :USE the CL package.
2018-06-20T09:12:55Z makomo: oh right
2018-06-20T09:12:58Z makomo: woopsie
2018-06-20T09:12:59Z beach: makomo: No, I would choose a short package local nickname and use explicit package prefix for the others.
2018-06-20T09:13:14Z makomo: i see
2018-06-20T09:13:29Z beach: Like CST:LISTIFY instead of concrete-syntax-tree:listify.
2018-06-20T09:13:31Z scymtym: makomo: line 78 in https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/eclector-walk-and-source-tracking-simplified.html shows an example of this style
2018-06-20T09:13:56Z scymtym: well, 78 and following
2018-06-20T09:14:31Z makomo: i'll have to look into package-local nicknames then
2018-06-20T09:14:45Z jdz: shangul: also, nobody seems to have complained about using APPLY instead of REDUCE.
2018-06-20T09:14:46Z scymtym: makomo: note that they are not standard
2018-06-20T09:14:49Z makomo: scymtym: yup
2018-06-20T09:14:57Z jackdaniel: makomo: it has one drawback: it is implemented in ABCL and SBCL so far only
2018-06-20T09:15:04Z makomo: only in those two?
2018-06-20T09:15:04Z beach: makomo: I think they are becoming safe to use even though they are not standard.  Most major implementations have them, and in the same way it seems.
2018-06-20T09:15:07Z makomo: i thought it was more widespread
2018-06-20T09:15:08Z jackdaniel: ECL has it in the develop branch
2018-06-20T09:15:10Z shangul: jdz, I've used apply
2018-06-20T09:15:13Z makomo: ah
2018-06-20T09:15:15Z jackdaniel: CCL doesn't have them afaik at all
2018-06-20T09:15:21Z jdz: shangul: yes, but you should have used REDUCE
2018-06-20T09:15:26Z beach: jackdaniel: Oh, sorry.  I thought it was in distribution of ECL.
2018-06-20T09:15:34Z _death: names like frob-something or something-foo indicate type envy.. sometimes it makes sense to use that style, but you should consider using just frob and foo
2018-06-20T09:15:43Z shangul: jdz, lemme see what this thing is
2018-06-20T09:15:58Z jackdaniel: no, ECL's release cycle is much slower than SBCL (limited time resources ;)
2018-06-20T09:16:04Z jackdaniel: but hopefully not as slow as CLISP
2018-06-20T09:16:43Z scymtym: jackdaniel: will ECL implement the same variant of pln as SBCL or something else?
2018-06-20T09:16:46Z jackdaniel: on the other hand release is the thing which I celebrate with friends (: rare occasion indeed
2018-06-20T09:16:48Z makomo: beach: regarding your internal protocol comment, what exactly did you mean by "auxiliary methods"?
2018-06-20T09:17:01Z beach: :BEFORE :AFTER :AROUND
2018-06-20T09:17:28Z jackdaniel: scymtym: I've used Nikodemus proposal as the interface
2018-06-20T09:17:31Z beach: clhs/g auxiliary-method
2018-06-20T09:17:42Z beach: I can never remember how to do that.
2018-06-20T09:17:45Z makomo: haha
2018-06-20T09:17:52Z makomo: i understand what you mean now
2018-06-20T09:18:00Z makomo: you benefit from the whole of CLOS by using accessors
2018-06-20T09:18:01Z beach: makomo: Look in the clossary.  Last entry in the A section.
2018-06-20T09:18:08Z beach: Exactly.
2018-06-20T09:18:13Z jackdaniel: so it is the same in principle (but package is ext if you want to use functions which work on packages -defpackage is extended accordingly to sbcl)
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2018-06-20T09:22:20Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i see. i asked because i think Xach designed/is designing another variant of pln
2018-06-20T09:23:00Z beach: Oh, right.  He objected to the SBCL way, right?
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2018-06-20T09:25:22Z jackdaniel: is it going to be adapted in other implementations? since it's not released yet, I'm still free to change the interface
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2018-06-20T09:27:08Z shangul: jdz, why should I use reduce instead of apply?
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2018-06-20T09:27:23Z beach: shangul: (reduce #'function list)
2018-06-20T09:27:35Z shangul: I know
2018-06-20T09:27:38Z shangul: but I don't know why
2018-06-20T09:27:41Z beach: Oh, why?
2018-06-20T09:27:55Z jdz: clhs call-arguments-limit
2018-06-20T09:27:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_call_a.htm
2018-06-20T09:28:14Z beach: Because the number of allowed arguments to a function may be limited.
2018-06-20T09:28:21Z scymtym: beach: jackdaniel: i'm not sure. best to ask Xach
2018-06-20T09:28:42Z shangul: aha
2018-06-20T09:28:45Z shangul: thanks
2018-06-20T09:28:49Z shangul: all
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2018-06-20T09:28:59Z beach: shangul: When you do (apply #'+ list) you are subject to that limitation.
2018-06-20T09:29:12Z imjacobclark: still baffled by "(json:encode-json '#( ((foo . (1 2 3)) (bar . path) (baz . #\!)) "quux" 4/17 4.25 ))" in cl-json - its as if it is just evaluating everything to strings and not the values
2018-06-20T09:29:21Z shangul: because it does (+ a b c d...)
2018-06-20T09:29:28Z beach: shangul: Yes.
2018-06-20T09:29:48Z shangul: the final version: https://apaste.info/7X2P
2018-06-20T09:29:53Z beach: shangul: Whereas REDUCE does (+ (+ (+ a b) c) d..)
2018-06-20T09:30:00Z jdz: imjacobclark: Your array is quoted.
2018-06-20T09:30:06Z shangul: beach, isn't reduce slower?
2018-06-20T09:30:19Z beach: I doubt it.
2018-06-20T09:30:24Z jackdaniel: scymtym: my question is rather: are sbcl devs willing to adopt this new interface?
2018-06-20T09:30:27Z jdz: imjacobclark: Evaluate the array in the REPL, you'll see what the contents are.
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2018-06-20T09:31:01Z shangul: beach, ah it shouldn't be slower. because they produce the same machine code
2018-06-20T09:31:16Z shangul: except push and pops to the stack
2018-06-20T09:31:18Z xificurC: shangul: your n-sqr is not used anywhere. The LOOP that jdz posted is more natural then doing a let+push/setf combo
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2018-06-20T09:31:47Z shangul: xificurC, oh yes I've forgotten to remove that
2018-06-20T09:31:56Z jdz: shangul: Also consider providing :initial-value 0 to the REDUCE call.
2018-06-20T09:32:19Z jdz: Unless you can prove that the list is never empty.
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2018-06-20T09:33:10Z shangul: if user enters a positive integer, it would never be empty
2018-06-20T09:33:11Z scymtym: jackdaniel: can't say. firstly, i can't speak for all SBCL devs. secondly, i don't know enough about Xach's proposal
2018-06-20T09:33:38Z jdz: shangul: "IF".
2018-06-20T09:33:40Z shangul: however I updated the code: https://apaste.info/XNpd
2018-06-20T09:34:07Z shangul: jdz, if they enter 0 or negative or non-numberic values. the program will crash
2018-06-20T09:34:17Z jackdaniel: scymtym: thanks, that's understandable. thanks for the headups about Xach's work, I wasn't aware of it
2018-06-20T09:34:43Z shangul: no it doesn't
2018-06-20T09:34:58Z jdz: shangul: User input should always be sanitized.
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2018-06-20T09:35:41Z shangul: jdz, right
2018-06-20T09:37:22Z jdz: Oh, in this case the :initial-value is not needed because + already handles the case of zero arguments.
2018-06-20T09:37:47Z jdz: Still, a thing to keep in mind when using REDUCE.
2018-06-20T09:37:49Z makomo: beach: coming back to the accessor thing, does that mean you rarely use WITH-SLOTS?
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2018-06-20T09:38:54Z imjacobclark: jdz: ah I put it in quotes for IRC, it isn't in my code.
2018-06-20T09:39:33Z jdz: imjacobclark: Array literal reader in Common Lisp does not evaluate the arguments.
2018-06-20T09:39:45Z jdz: I learned that from Rich Hickey.
2018-06-20T09:39:45Z imjacobclark: jdz: is there anything I can do to get around that?
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2018-06-20T09:39:56Z jdz: imjacobclark: Use MAKE-ARRAY.
2018-06-20T09:40:08Z imjacobclark: Thanks!
2018-06-20T09:40:08Z jdz: Or COERCE.
2018-06-20T09:40:32Z imjacobclark: Array literal reader, is that essentially #'?
2018-06-20T09:40:38Z jdz: #(
2018-06-20T09:40:45Z imjacobclark: Ah yes.
2018-06-20T09:40:46Z imjacobclark: Thankyou
2018-06-20T09:41:25Z jdz: Another option is to use backquote.
2018-06-20T09:41:49Z jdz: It has some interesting behaviour when combined with unquote-splicing, though.
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2018-06-20T10:00:50Z xificurC: (funcall 'foo 2 3) generates the same assembly as (funcall #'foo 2 3), seeming the fdefinition of FOO is compiled in as a fixed memory location. I thought 'foo would be compiled as a runtime lookup. If one wanted runtime lookup one would need to use symbol-function?
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2018-06-20T10:07:42Z nirved: shangul: what happens when n is an exact square?
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2018-06-20T10:20:41Z shangul: nirved, we will have 1 2 3 ... sqrt(n)
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2018-06-20T10:21:21Z shangul: oh no
2018-06-20T10:24:35Z _death: xificurC: it is doing runtime lookup
2018-06-20T10:25:55Z _death: xificurC: it is not always the case that the same code will be generated
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2018-06-20T10:27:44Z shangul: nirved, https://apaste.info/k3Fn
2018-06-20T10:27:52Z xificurC: _death: what am I doing wrong then? http://ix.io/1e2e
2018-06-20T10:28:02Z shangul: nirved, forget that
2018-06-20T10:28:49Z loke: xificurC: What do you expect to happen?
2018-06-20T10:29:09Z loke: I think that it's likely you don't understand lexical scope
2018-06-20T10:29:31Z xificurC: maybe we think of something different when saying "runtime lookup"
2018-06-20T10:29:44Z shangul: nirved, https://apaste.info/RO02
2018-06-20T10:30:46Z loke: xificurC: You are wrong
2018-06-20T10:31:03Z xificurC: loke: where does lexical scoping come into play here? FOO is special and flet should rebind it dynamically. The way I see it right now is that BAR is calling the previously defined FOO no matter what
2018-06-20T10:31:19Z xificurC: loke: that is very likely :)
2018-06-20T10:31:30Z loke: xificurC: FOO might be special (as a variable), but the function FOO isn't
2018-06-20T10:31:43Z loke: The following gives an error, as FOO has no global binding:
2018-06-20T10:31:46Z loke: (flet ((foo () (print 1))) (funcall 'foo))
2018-06-20T10:31:57Z loke: Do you understand why that is the case?
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2018-06-20T10:32:49Z loke: However, the following works, because #' looks up the function definition in the lexical scope:
2018-06-20T10:32:52Z loke: (flet ((foo () (print 1))) (funcall #'foo))
2018-06-20T10:33:06Z xificurC: if I redefine foo with defun then it picks up the change
2018-06-20T10:33:19Z xificurC: loke: no I don't
2018-06-20T10:33:27Z loke: Because DEFUN establishes a global binding of the function
2018-06-20T10:34:01Z xificurC: loke: I always imagined I can interchange value and function lookup, i.e. (let ((foo 1)) foo) to work the same way as (flet ((foo () nil)) (funcall 'foo))
2018-06-20T10:34:02Z _death: when a function name is passed to funcall, it uses fdefinition to look it up
2018-06-20T10:34:04Z loke: FLED and LABELS establishes a lexical binding.
2018-06-20T10:34:23Z _death: so the name comes from the global environment
2018-06-20T10:34:25Z loke: xificurC: you can, in  asense... BUT... there is a huge difference:
2018-06-20T10:34:27Z _death: *the function
2018-06-20T10:35:07Z xificurC: clhs flet
2018-06-20T10:35:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2018-06-20T10:35:22Z loke: xificurC: Note that you pass the _symbol_ foo to funcall. It's FUNCALL that looks at the symbol and decides which function to call. Funcall isn't in the same lexical scope, so there is no way it could ever see your local definition.
2018-06-20T10:35:44Z _death: although it's interesting that the funcall entry says "symbol" instead of "function name"
2018-06-20T10:35:57Z loke: xificurC: with #' you pass the actual function to FUNCALL
2018-06-20T10:37:02Z _death: (of course this contradicts my statement, and only symbols are dealt with that way..)
2018-06-20T10:37:31Z xificurC: loke: ok so FLET makes lexical bindings, that was my mistake
2018-06-20T10:37:39Z nirved: sbcl might inline #' and ' never gets inlined
2018-06-20T10:37:46Z xificurC: clhs even states for noobs like me "Within the function definitions, local function names that match those being defined refer to functions or macros defined outside the flet"
2018-06-20T10:38:07Z xificurC: loke: thanks, that cleared it up!
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2018-06-20T11:12:53Z jmercouris: I'm going through gentle introduction to symbolic computation, and I am stuck on this problem: https://imgur.com/a/rTOIRR1
2018-06-20T11:13:19Z jmercouris: I understand why the example given is wrong, but I cannot think of how to solve the second part
2018-06-20T11:13:31Z jmercouris: a generalized way of representing IF using just AND and OR
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2018-06-20T11:18:24Z jmercouris: I can't think about how to do it without using NOT
2018-06-20T11:19:01Z schweers: jmercouris: does the text say you may not use NOT?
2018-06-20T11:19:01Z makomo: the proble is that the true-part might return NIL right?
2018-06-20T11:19:24Z schweers: or use progn, but that would be different from IF
2018-06-20T11:19:38Z jmercouris: schweers: it doesn't say that, but it simply says "as a combination of ANDs and ORs that does not fail"
2018-06-20T11:19:50Z jmercouris: schweers: progn hasn't been introduced in the book yet
2018-06-20T11:19:53Z schweers: yeah, weird
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2018-06-20T11:20:01Z jmercouris: I'm going through the book, imagining that I do not know things not yet introduced
2018-06-20T11:20:09Z jmercouris: makomo: yes that is the problem
2018-06-20T11:20:15Z jmercouris: at which point it would execute the second or clause
2018-06-20T11:20:19Z schweers: okay, then we may assume that both frue-part and false-part are only one form (I hope)
2018-06-20T11:20:29Z jmercouris: yes, this is the assumptino
2018-06-20T11:20:33Z makomo: does this alternative definition of IF have to return the actual value of the true-part, or can it just return t?
2018-06-20T11:20:35Z jmercouris: s/assumptino/assumption
2018-06-20T11:20:43Z makomo: i.e. is it supposed to work with generalized booleans?
2018-06-20T11:20:49Z makomo: or are just T/NIL fine?
2018-06-20T11:20:52Z jmercouris: makomo: I'm not sure, all the information I have is what is listed
2018-06-20T11:21:07Z jmercouris: I think the goal is just conditional execution and returning a correct boolean
2018-06-20T11:21:12Z jmercouris: not necessarily the result of the expression
2018-06-20T11:21:25Z jmercouris: like it needn't return 5 or "fish", just T like you've said
2018-06-20T11:21:25Z makomo: perhaps something like (or (and 'test (or nil t)) 'false)?
2018-06-20T11:21:39Z makomo: "nil" is the true-part
2018-06-20T11:21:53Z jmercouris: makomo: It still has to execute the true branch
2018-06-20T11:21:58Z jmercouris: oh I see
2018-06-20T11:22:02Z jmercouris: you've put nil as a placeholder
2018-06-20T11:22:05Z makomo: but it's wrapped within another OR that forces a T to be returned
2018-06-20T11:22:06Z jmercouris: interesting
2018-06-20T11:22:08Z makomo: yeah
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2018-06-20T11:22:22Z makomo: the second OR is never executed if 'test is something that returns NIL instead
2018-06-20T11:22:23Z jmercouris: I came up with (or (and test true-branch) (and (not test) false-branch))
2018-06-20T11:22:30Z makomo: ah
2018-06-20T11:22:39Z jmercouris: but again, not sure I am allowed to use not
2018-06-20T11:22:46Z jmercouris: it has been mentioned in the book, but the question is vague
2018-06-20T11:22:47Z schweers: jmercouris: that would evaluate test twice, which may be relevant
2018-06-20T11:22:55Z jmercouris: if there are side-effects, yes
2018-06-20T11:22:59Z makomo: right
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2018-06-20T11:25:17Z jmercouris: thanks for the feedback
2018-06-20T11:26:00Z makomo: so it seems like this alternative definition is only good at selecting the right operation
2018-06-20T11:26:05Z makomo: the return values are borked though
2018-06-20T11:26:16Z jmercouris: yes
2018-06-20T11:26:21Z jmercouris: I can't think of another way to do it though
2018-06-20T11:26:25Z makomo: me neither
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2018-06-20T11:32:17Z shrdlu68: (or (and (oddp 5) (and (evenp 7) t)) 'foo)
2018-06-20T11:33:29Z jmercouris: within (and (evenp 7) t) you'll never ever hit the second t block
2018-06-20T11:33:50Z jmercouris: because if the first clause returns t it will jump to the second block and return "t"
2018-06-20T11:34:04Z jmercouris: if the first clause returns nil, it will short circuit and return nil
2018-06-20T11:34:11Z jmercouris: so you are still not getting back the result of the evaluation
2018-06-20T11:34:39Z jmercouris: also in my first message, I did not mean to say "you'll never hit the second t block", I should have said, "you'll never get the evaluation result"
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2018-06-20T11:34:57Z shrdlu68: Oh, I thought the goal was to just return a boolean.
2018-06-20T11:35:07Z jmercouris: I'm not sure, the question is really ambiguous
2018-06-20T11:38:56Z jackdaniel: little late on the party, but: (or (or (oddp 3) 'foo) (and (oddp 3) (evenp 7))) ; if we are willing to evaluate test twice in worst case
2018-06-20T11:39:45Z jmercouris: ah, very clever
2018-06-20T11:40:01Z jackdaniel: so either (or (or TEST FALSE) (and TEST TRUE))    or    (or (or TEST FALSE :nothing) TRUE)
2018-06-20T11:40:07Z jmercouris: right, you flip the order
2018-06-20T11:40:12Z jackdaniel: if we do not care if it returns NIL or :nothing
2018-06-20T11:40:13Z jmercouris: so that you don't need to use a NOT
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2018-06-20T11:44:47Z shrdlu68: Shouldn't we get the result of (evenp 7)?
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2018-06-20T11:46:28Z jmercouris: ah, shit, yes
2018-06-20T11:46:33Z jmercouris: this would return 'foo, right?
2018-06-20T11:46:39Z jmercouris: or rather foo
2018-06-20T11:47:17Z jmercouris: this is getting confusing for me
2018-06-20T11:47:26Z jmercouris: I'm going to start drawing truth tables in a bit lol
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2018-06-20T11:48:17Z nirved: there's no solution when test has side effects
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2018-06-20T11:49:35Z _death: jackdaniel: if (oddp 3) returns true, the outer OR will just return that
2018-06-20T11:50:51Z jackdaniel: you are right
2018-06-20T11:51:25Z jmercouris: what's crazy is that this is only chapter 4 of this book
2018-06-20T11:51:35Z jmercouris: I can't imagine how intimidated a new CS student would feel going through this book
2018-06-20T11:51:42Z jmercouris: they are only 1/6 the way, and they have an unsolvable problem
2018-06-20T11:51:59Z jmercouris: then again, they may not give credence to side-effects and the like
2018-06-20T11:52:03Z _death: I think the naive solution jmercouris found is the one intended
2018-06-20T11:52:14Z _death: that uses NOT and evaluates twice
2018-06-20T11:52:35Z makomo: i would rather say that they didn't define the problem well enough
2018-06-20T11:52:42Z makomo: i mean, they're too vague about what they expect
2018-06-20T11:52:54Z makomo: should we care about side-effects? should we care about return values?
2018-06-20T11:52:58Z makomo: who knows what they want
2018-06-20T11:53:15Z _death: well, maybe they've not introduced side-effects yet
2018-06-20T11:53:21Z jackdaniel: I think that having problems without solution is a very important lesson
2018-06-20T11:53:28Z jackdaniel: they happen often in real-world scenarios
2018-06-20T11:53:40Z jackdaniel: only in education they are rarity (what creates a misleading impression)
2018-06-20T11:53:41Z makomo: meh, i don't like that reasoning at all because it only confuses the reader
2018-06-20T11:54:11Z makomo: there's a certain math textbook with lots of math exercises but *NO* solutions at all
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2018-06-20T11:54:23Z makomo: the rationale is that "a mathematician should get used to the unavailability of solutions"
2018-06-20T11:54:30Z jmercouris: I already took software design classes in my undergraduate, and those were oftentimes ambiguous on purpose. I think the goal is to teach lisp, not generalized software engineering
2018-06-20T11:54:32Z makomo: pretty dumb if you ask me
2018-06-20T11:54:48Z nirved: there's answer in appendix c, it uses not
2018-06-20T11:54:55Z jmercouris: there is a valuable lesson here, I just think this is the wrong book to teach it
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2018-06-20T11:55:11Z jmercouris: nirved: Ah, the answers are in the appendix, good to know ,thanks
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2018-06-20T11:56:21Z makomo: _death: also, i think that the fact that side-effects can be ignored should be mentioned upfront, even if the book didn't get to side effects yet
2018-06-20T11:56:38Z _death: AND and OR are insufficient.. maybe if there was a NAND operator ;)
2018-06-20T11:56:41Z makomo: because many people don't really start with a clean slate when reading such books
2018-06-20T11:57:01Z makomo: i.e. they'll immediatelly think "but what about multiple evaluation"
2018-06-20T11:57:17Z makomo: and then just end up confused since the book says nothing about it
2018-06-20T11:57:32Z _death: makomo: if they're actually reading the book they may notice that it's not yet introduced..
2018-06-20T11:57:54Z makomo: i still think that it should be mentioned explictily
2018-06-20T11:58:39Z _death: that would get in the way of understanding for people who don't know what side-effects are, which forms a big part of that book's target audience, I'd think
2018-06-20T11:58:45Z makomo: instead of the book saying something like "ah remember that example? we didn't handle the problem of multiple evaluation then" later on
2018-06-20T11:59:06Z makomo: hm idk, i guess it depends from person to person
2018-06-20T11:59:11Z makomo: yeah, maybe
2018-06-20T11:59:33Z _death: gentle introduction is gentle ;)
2018-06-20T11:59:55Z makomo: hah, good point :D
2018-06-20T12:00:05Z jmercouris: that would be an interesting title for a fast paced book
2018-06-20T12:00:10Z jmercouris: "violent introduction to symbolic computation"
2018-06-20T12:00:24Z _death: learn X the hard way?
2018-06-20T12:00:35Z _death: learn X in 21 days
2018-06-20T12:00:48Z makomo: X in Y <time-units>
2018-06-20T12:00:51Z makomo: X for dummies
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2018-06-20T12:01:01Z makomo: X for geniuses*
2018-06-20T12:01:02Z shrdlu68: X for masochists.
2018-06-20T12:01:17Z xificurC: how about (or (and test (or then t)) (or else nil))
2018-06-20T12:01:36Z _death: ignores the return value of THEN.. last OR unnecessary
2018-06-20T12:01:43Z shrdlu68: X for Von Neumann.
2018-06-20T12:02:08Z xificurC: _death: I can't open the imgur link (blocked at work)
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2018-06-20T12:03:18Z xificurC: so I'm not sure what the exact question is. But reading the discussions it was said the return value doesn't need to be kept. The last or isn't necessary but it is symmetric to the then part
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2018-06-20T12:13:01Z _death: xificurC: right, if only true or false are needed then your solution works..
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2018-06-20T12:17:24Z shrdlu68: xificurC: (or (and (oddp 5) (or (evenp 7) t)) (or 'foo nil)) => t
2018-06-20T12:18:08Z shrdlu68: The test is (oddp 5), then is (evenp 7), else is 'foo
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2018-06-20T12:18:49Z jackdaniel: if block/return are allowed, then it is possible to return values too, otherwise I think it is not possible without null/not
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2018-06-20T12:19:29Z xificurC: shrdlu68: given that I understood code blocks are only to be run for side effects that looks correct
2018-06-20T12:20:04Z shrdlu68: But the result ought to be the evaluation of (evenp 7), so it's wrong.
2018-06-20T12:20:34Z xificurC: shrdlu68: then it's not run for side effects and yes, in that case it won't work
2018-06-20T12:21:00Z shrdlu68: Unless there's a way to create NOT using AND and OR, I don't think this has a solution.
2018-06-20T12:21:10Z shrdlu68: Proof by frustration.
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2018-06-20T12:24:45Z makomo: exactly :D
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2018-06-20T12:59:12Z beach: makomo: Yes, correct.  I use WITH-ACCESSORS instead.
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2018-06-20T12:59:49Z makomo: beach: and what if some of these before/after methods contain error checking that is not necessary within internal functions
2018-06-20T13:00:15Z beach: makomo: I try to split my protocols into external and internal.
2018-06-20T13:00:17Z makomo: and you want to avoid that extra work, since you know you're providing correct values as the implementor
2018-06-20T13:00:33Z beach: If I am really concerned, I make the external only do the error checking.
2018-06-20T13:01:17Z makomo: i suppose the accessors are part of the external protocol? how do you name these internal accessors then?
2018-06-20T13:01:55Z beach: No, not necessarily.  I use accessors for everything, including internals.
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2018-06-20T13:02:20Z beach: Not all accessor names are exported.  The ones that aren't belong to some internal protocol.
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2018-06-20T13:05:12Z makomo: beach: so in the case when you want to avoid error checking because hypothetically it might be expensive, do you have 2 accessors? a safe one which is part of the external protocol and an unsafe one which is part of the internal protocol?
2018-06-20T13:05:39Z makomo: i suppose the difference isn't that clear though, since you might offer safe and unsafe versions as part of the external protocol?
2018-06-20T13:06:04Z makomo: (instead of the unsafe version being stashed away within the internal protocol)
2018-06-20T13:06:35Z beach: makomo: Two options then.  Either stick two accessors for the same slot and use some auxiliary methods only on the externally visible accessor.  Or make the external generic function not an accessor and have its method(s) call generic functions in the internal protocol.
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2018-06-20T13:08:02Z beach: makomo: I always work under the assumption that my stuff is fast enough, even with error checking.  I design good data structures and algorithms to make that happen.  So far, I have not had to make anything that is part of some external protocol "unsafe".
2018-06-20T13:08:38Z beach: makomo: I usually design the external protocol first, and I decide what I want it to do.
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2018-06-20T13:10:28Z makomo: beach: ah, i see. good point about good data structures and algorithms.
2018-06-20T13:10:41Z makomo: that usually ends up being more important anyway
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2018-06-20T13:12:05Z beach: makomo: Yeah,  I rarely have to micro-optimize, and I always compile with speed 0, debug 3, compilation-speed 0, safety 3, space 0.
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2018-06-20T13:13:10Z beach: makomo: Unless, of course my research is about highly optimized code, as in this one: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf
2018-06-20T13:13:36Z beach: makomo: Or this: http://metamodular.com/sequence-functions.pdf
2018-06-20T13:14:01Z beach: makomo: Or this: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
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2018-06-20T13:16:38Z makomo: beach: very interesting, thanks for the material :-)
2018-06-20T13:16:45Z beach: Anytime.
2018-06-20T13:16:53Z beach: I didn't mean for you to read that.
2018-06-20T13:17:08Z beach: Just to show you examples of exceptions to my rule about OPTIMIZE flags.
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2018-06-20T13:18:31Z kuribas: why does compiling: (defun f (x y) (declare (type fixnum x y)) (+ x (* y 2))) give me: forced to do GENERIC-+ (cost 10) ;       unable to do inline fixnum arithmetic (cost 2) because: ;       The second argument is a (INTEGER -9223372036854775808 ; 9223372036854775806), not a FIXNUM.
2018-06-20T13:18:41Z makomo: beach: yeah, but it certainly serves as a good example for such cases
2018-06-20T13:18:58Z kuribas: since I declared x y as a fixnum, I'd think (* y 2) is also a fixnum
2018-06-20T13:19:06Z beach: kuribas: It is not.
2018-06-20T13:19:14Z kuribas: beach: apparently
2018-06-20T13:19:25Z beach: kuribas: If you take the biggest fixnum and double it, it won't be a fixnum.
2018-06-20T13:19:25Z kuribas: I don't get why.
2018-06-20T13:19:39Z beach: makomo: Sure.
2018-06-20T13:19:41Z kuribas: beach: so can I do an "unsafe" double?
2018-06-20T13:19:55Z beach: kuribas: What does that mean?
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2018-06-20T13:20:21Z kuribas: like addition modulo 2^32
2018-06-20T13:20:30Z makomo: i think you're looking for the "THE" form
2018-06-20T13:20:32Z Xach: kuribas: you can use (mod (* y 2) 2^32)
2018-06-20T13:20:34Z beach: kuribas: You can do that, but I don't see any point of using Common Lisp then.
2018-06-20T13:20:46Z Xach: kuribas: or (logand #xFFFFFFFF (* y 2))
2018-06-20T13:20:51Z kuribas: I just want efficient code.
2018-06-20T13:20:55Z beach: kuribas: You might as well use one of the so many unsafe languages out there.
2018-06-20T13:20:57Z Xach: SBCL can make such operations very efficient.
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2018-06-20T13:21:15Z Xach: And semantically the same on all implementations, unlike fixnum declarations.
2018-06-20T13:21:29Z shka: beach: well, sometimes you want integer to just overflow
2018-06-20T13:21:36Z shka: like in the hashing function for instance
2018-06-20T13:21:45Z Xach: Then you would use MOD or LOGAND or similar.
2018-06-20T13:21:50Z Xach: Instead of implicit overflow.
2018-06-20T13:21:53Z beach: shka: Then do it explicitly as Xach suggests.
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2018-06-20T13:22:16Z Xach: SBCL (and possibly other implementations) will do efficient things with machine-word modular arithmetic.
2018-06-20T13:22:36Z makomo: so what are the guarantees if one used THE to declare the type of the result?
2018-06-20T13:22:56Z makomo: are there any guarantees regarding the behavior of fixnums (such as overflow, etc.)?
2018-06-20T13:23:05Z _death: by using THE you are the one guaranteeing things
2018-06-20T13:23:07Z Xach: makomo: they will be of a certain size.
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2018-06-20T13:23:27Z Xach: if you declare something a fixnum and it is not that size, things are allowed to break.
2018-06-20T13:23:45Z makomo: i see
2018-06-20T13:23:46Z beach: makomo: It is usually a very bad idea to guarantee something that isn't true.
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2018-06-20T13:25:43Z makomo: mhm
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2018-06-20T13:25:48Z shka: makomo: thing is, all those type declarations are geared mostly toward efficiency first, and type safety secondly at best
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2018-06-20T13:26:24Z shka: so until you have program that works and is already debuged, you may prefer to skip manual type declarations
2018-06-20T13:26:31Z shka: unless you know what you are doing
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2018-06-20T13:27:21Z shka: and knowing what you are doing is often not portable
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2018-06-20T13:27:40Z shka: if you want to make your program type safe, check-type is your friend
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2018-06-20T13:27:55Z shka: deftype is cool as well
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2018-06-20T13:30:12Z _death: kuribas: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/825#825
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2018-06-20T13:32:32Z _death: (you can also declare speed 3 if you want)
2018-06-20T13:32:34Z jdz: I declare types and safety, so I get errors when my assumptions turn out to be wrong.
2018-06-20T13:34:28Z beach: jdz: That's not portable though.
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2018-06-20T13:35:11Z jdz: I should read the relevant sections of the spec, then.
2018-06-20T13:36:44Z kuribas: So I understand correctly that there is no type which have the semantics of machine integers?
2018-06-20T13:37:02Z Xach: kuribas: that's right.
2018-06-20T13:37:05Z kuribas: That is, wrapping around on overflow.
2018-06-20T13:37:12Z jdz: kuribas: what machine?
2018-06-20T13:37:21Z Xach: If you want wrapping, you must write it with arithmetic operations.
2018-06-20T13:37:27Z Xach: like MOD or LOGAND
2018-06-20T13:37:28Z kuribas: jdz: almost all CPUs?
2018-06-20T13:37:29Z beach: jdz: Maybe in WSCL, I will be more strict about the meaning of type declarations, especially in safe code.
2018-06-20T13:37:42Z Bike: kuribas: i mean, there's sizes to worry about.
2018-06-20T13:37:56Z jackdaniel: speaking of portability, it still won't be portable (but rather wscl-specific)
2018-06-20T13:38:00Z kuribas: Bike: let's say 29 bits or more.
2018-06-20T13:38:19Z Bike: kuribas: but integers act like integers. semantics aren't determined by type in lisp. if you want arithmetic modulo whatever, you write the modulo yourself, and your compiler can try to lower that to machine arithmetic (sbcl does so)
2018-06-20T13:38:35Z shrdlu68: How I learned to stop worrying and embrace the implementation.
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2018-06-20T13:38:54Z beach: jackdaniel: It would be portable across all WSCL-conforming implementations. :)
2018-06-20T13:38:56Z kuribas: embrace the lack of performance
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2018-06-20T13:39:24Z jackdaniel: so jdz's behavior is portable across all SBCL-conforming implementations? ;-)
2018-06-20T13:39:35Z beach: jackdaniel: Heh!
2018-06-20T13:39:45Z Xach: kuribas: it's a trade-off.
2018-06-20T13:39:49Z beach: kuribas: Embrace safety.  That's part of the beauty of Common Lisp.
2018-06-20T13:40:09Z kuribas: how is wrapping around unsafe?
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2018-06-20T13:40:44Z Bike: it causes problems when programmers don't expect to wrap.
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2018-06-20T13:40:48Z beach: kuribas: Oh, it's safe if you carefully check for it each time.  Now look at how many C programs assume that x + 1 > x.
2018-06-20T13:40:49Z _death: kuribas: what lack of performance? if you have speed 3 it's a shl and an add as it's supposed to be..
2018-06-20T13:40:55Z jackdaniel: beach: that reminds me of this comic: https://xkcd.com/927/
2018-06-20T13:41:02Z Bike: like old video games where you heal a bunch and end up with negative four million health
2018-06-20T13:41:33Z beach: jackdaniel: Good one!
2018-06-20T13:41:36Z kuribas: _death: and a test it doesn't overflow
2018-06-20T13:41:54Z _death: kuribas: nope
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2018-06-20T13:43:27Z xificurC: kuribas: wrapping might be desired in *some* cases. It's not how the world works. Or do you suddenly have 0 apples when you buy 1 more but your basket is full
2018-06-20T13:44:03Z makomo: beach: in the case of signed integers, that is actually always true and could be optimized out by the compiler :-)
2018-06-20T13:44:03Z xificurC: if you want to write assembly or C, write assembly or C. Don't expect a high level language to magically generate the tightest code possible
2018-06-20T13:44:10Z makomo: beach: since signed overflow is undefined
2018-06-20T13:44:37Z beach: makomo: Fair enough.
2018-06-20T13:44:48Z makomo: there was a bug report on GCC's issue tracker where one guy was mad when GCC started making use of that optimization
2018-06-20T13:44:52Z _death: I don't understand why people suggest switching to a different language.. sbcl is sufficient here.. and if you still want more performance, just write your assembly routines in lisp :)
2018-06-20T13:45:08Z makomo: the GCC guys didn't seem to care though -- rely on UB and that's what you get
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2018-06-20T13:45:32Z xificurC: _death: it feels natural when one is trying to get language X's behavior in language Y
2018-06-20T13:45:35Z kuribas: xificurC: depends on the high level language I get.
2018-06-20T13:45:38Z shrdlu68: xificurC: Good luck writing more efficient asm by hand than sbcl.
2018-06-20T13:45:57Z _death: xificurC: Lisp can serve well as both a high level language and a low level one
2018-06-20T13:46:23Z xificurC: _death: many languages can. But if you want to write low level only, why bother?
2018-06-20T13:46:29Z _death: shrdlu68: that wouldn't be so hard..
2018-06-20T13:46:38Z beach: _death: You are right of course.  But it seems kuribas is pouting because Common Lisp is not unsafe by default like other languages are.
2018-06-20T13:47:04Z kuribas: beach: not by default
2018-06-20T13:47:06Z _death: beach: I think kuribas did just that the other day as well.. and the answers were also similar
2018-06-20T13:47:08Z xificurC: shrdlu68: why are people under the impression writing good asm by hand isn't possible anymore? Make a few web searches
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2018-06-20T13:48:01Z beach: _death: It makes me tired.  Especially today when I am in a rotten mood.
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2018-06-20T13:48:22Z shrdlu68: xificurC: Fine, Godspeed.
2018-06-20T13:48:45Z jmercouris: beach: Life can be a beach somtimes eh ;)?
2018-06-20T13:49:00Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-20T13:49:08Z jackdaniel: sunny and sandy?
2018-06-20T13:49:09Z beach: _death: Reading the logs, I see what you mean.
2018-06-20T13:49:10Z makomo: LOL
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2018-06-20T13:50:05Z beach: _death: Oh, this one is a pearl: "<kuribas> I am not expecting anything in common lisp to be new or surprising..."
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2018-06-20T13:51:16Z beach: And this: "<kuribas> you give up a large part of safety when programming in a dynamic language", especially given that kuribas now wants arithmetic to be unsafe by default.
2018-06-20T13:51:35Z _death: surprise tends to come when you least expect it
2018-06-20T13:51:42Z kuribas: beach: we have a different view on what safety means.
2018-06-20T13:51:43Z beach: Seems that way.
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2018-06-20T13:52:17Z shrdlu68: "Infosec" safety vs correctness safety.
2018-06-20T13:52:52Z beach: _death: It seems that way.
2018-06-20T13:52:56Z jackdaniel: I think he means a compilation-time safety wrt types of function arguments. It can't be ignored as non-existent and CL indeed doesn't provide this kind of safety
2018-06-20T13:53:23Z jackdaniel: but it is only a tiny piece of a big cake
2018-06-20T13:54:22Z _death: I don't see how modular arithmetic is unsafe.. it's just something you need to implement because + and * on integers use ordinary kindergarten arithmetic
2018-06-20T13:54:37Z shrdlu68: I thought using type declarations liberally gives you type safety.
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2018-06-20T13:54:53Z beach: _death: It is unsafe if your programs assume things like x + 1 > x.
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2018-06-20T13:55:34Z _death: beach: I think by "unsafe" you mean "wrong"?
2018-06-20T13:55:51Z beach: _death: Sure, I'll change my terminology if you like.
2018-06-20T13:55:57Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: type declarations give you nothing (they may be conformingly ignored), but you may do check-type. that gives you a runtime safety (you will be dropped in a debugger whne program runs and values of incorrect type are passed to the function)
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2018-06-20T13:56:06Z beach: _death: And that is what so many programs in languages that use modular arithmetic seem to do, because I don't typically see any test for that situation each time I see an addition.
2018-06-20T13:56:24Z jackdaniel: so this kind of problem in principle may be found *after* deployment
2018-06-20T13:56:42Z beach: Yes, like in Ariane rockets and such.
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2018-06-20T13:57:34Z jdz: In missiles in general I've heard -- their justification being that the missile hits the target sooner than values get close to overflow values.
2018-06-20T13:58:14Z _death: beach: right.. but here the desideratum was modular arithmetic given ordinary arithmetic, not the other way around
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2018-06-20T13:58:33Z jackdaniel: I've read about a bug found on a racket (namely a memory leak which lead to OOM after some time). racket was after expensive process of QA and other verifications
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2018-06-20T13:58:49Z jdz: I think that's the Ariane rocket beach mentioned.
2018-06-20T13:58:55Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: But your implemention can give guarantees, right? I mean, if an implementation does not ignore type declarations.
2018-06-20T13:59:01Z jackdaniel: so they have figured out what is a maximum memory usage taking into account this memory leak while racket is running (say max 30m) and they've added enough memory to the hardware
2018-06-20T13:59:19Z jdz: Right, might be something eles.
2018-06-20T13:59:24Z jackdaniel: so they didn't have to change code which would require testing everything anwe
2018-06-20T13:59:26Z jackdaniel: anew
2018-06-20T13:59:43Z jdz: It seems we've heard the same story somewhere.
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2018-06-20T13:59:56Z jackdaniel: :)
2018-06-20T14:00:07Z jdz: Exact details don't matter, of course.
2018-06-20T14:00:55Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: sure, that is possible, just as it is possible to have C compiler with some undefined behavior explicitly defined. either way, my point is that it gives you runtime safety, not compilation time, so it is somewhat weaker
2018-06-20T14:01:51Z jackdaniel: I'm not saying that this kind of safety is crucial for good applications or that it improves overall quality
2018-06-20T14:01:58Z White_Flame: kuribas: if your input numbers are declared or inferred to be, say, between 0 and 1000, then the output can be inferred to be between 0 and 3000, keeping it a fixnum
2018-06-20T14:02:06Z jdz: OK, today I've learned that I've been relying on type checking behaviour that's very specific to SBCL.  I guess I'll have to use SBCL exclusively from now on, because I like this behaviour.
2018-06-20T14:02:14Z shrdlu68: I'm just used to SBCL holding my hand when I use type declarations.
2018-06-20T14:02:34Z shrdlu68: jdz: "How I learned to stop worrying and embrace the implementation."
2018-06-20T14:02:52Z White_Flame: kuribas: so don't fixate specifically on making things fixnums in particular
2018-06-20T14:03:05Z jdz: Yeah, I've been keeping my code SBCL/CCL agnostic, but it is getting harder as time passes by.
2018-06-20T14:03:57Z jdz: But I definitely remember CCL giving me errors when SBCL hasn't.  Don't have a record of particular instances, though.
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2018-06-20T14:05:24Z jackdaniel: example are :type declarations for slots, CCL given high enough safety enforced it when you were using accessors. I think SBCL started doing that recently too
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2018-06-20T14:19:37Z jdz: Yeah, that seems to ring some bells.
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2018-06-20T14:20:39Z makomo: what is the meaning of the [[<something>]] syntax in CLHS' description of forms?
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2018-06-20T14:21:02Z makomo: here "<something>" is some other rule within the same description
2018-06-20T14:21:29Z beach: clhs 1.4.1.2.1
2018-06-20T14:21:29Z specbot: Splicing in Modified BNF Syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_daba.htm
2018-06-20T14:21:39Z makomo: thanks!
2018-06-20T14:21:42Z beach: Sure.
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2018-06-20T14:24:52Z makomo: a question regarding CLOS style -- do people differentiate between using :default-initargs and :initform? the difference is subtle and i haven't seen :default-initargs used that often
2018-06-20T14:25:10Z beach: The usage is different.
2018-06-20T14:25:25Z beach: You typically use :default-initargs in a subclass to initialize slots in the superclass.
2018-06-20T14:25:40Z beach: ... rather than repeating the slot and using :initform.
2018-06-20T14:25:55Z makomo: oh, i haven't thought about superclasses, i see
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2018-06-20T14:26:33Z beach: That way, the subclass does not care how the initarg is used.  It could be to initialize a slot, or it could be caught by initialize-instance.
2018-06-20T14:26:46Z makomo: mhm, that's a very good point
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2018-06-20T14:26:53Z makomo: and what about within just the class that's currently being defined?
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2018-06-20T14:27:13Z makomo: i.e. i'm defining a slot within some class for the first time and i have to choose between :default-initargs and :initform
2018-06-20T14:27:27Z beach: I would use :initform there.
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2018-06-20T14:28:28Z makomo: i've seen it discussed in the CLOS book even, but the difference was artificial and served mainly to communicate intent (but i don't know how well it does that)
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2018-06-20T14:28:47Z makomo: the point about superclasses does make sense though
2018-06-20T14:28:56Z beach: Yes, and let me expand on it...
2018-06-20T14:29:09Z beach: It is often the case that you subclass a class from a library.
2018-06-20T14:29:31Z beach: If the library is well written, it only documents initargs and accessors, not the existence or not of slots.
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2018-06-20T14:30:13Z beach: So, you then use :default-initargs in your subclass, simply because it is your only option if you want to use only publicly documented features of the library.
2018-06-20T14:31:11Z makomo: aha, since you have no knowledge of the superclass' slots and cannot duplicate the definition just to change the :initform
2018-06-20T14:31:19Z beach: Exactly.
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2018-06-20T14:31:40Z makomo: beach: thanks :-)
2018-06-20T14:31:45Z beach: Anytime.
2018-06-20T14:32:29Z beach: makomo: Your questions (and your reactions to my answers) make me think that you will make fast progress, so I don't mind answering them.
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2018-06-20T14:33:12Z beach: makomo: By the way, I can't remember whether I told you, the last Common Lisp HyperSpec reference about keyword arguments makes me think that an error should be signaled for you case.
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2018-06-20T14:34:04Z makomo: beach: thanks for the encouragement, i appreciate it very much :-)
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2018-06-20T14:34:11Z makomo: beach: hmm i don't recall
2018-06-20T14:34:35Z beach: The one about the accepted keyword arguments depending on the applicable methods.
2018-06-20T14:35:18Z beach: clhs 7.6.5
2018-06-20T14:35:18Z specbot: Keyword Arguments in Generic Functions and Methods: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fe.htm
2018-06-20T14:35:21Z makomo: oh i think i remember now
2018-06-20T14:35:25Z makomo: right
2018-06-20T14:36:18Z makomo: so i guess it's SBCL that's non-conforming in that case?
2018-06-20T14:36:36Z beach: Until someone convinces me otherwise, that's what I think.
2018-06-20T14:37:14Z Bike: what was the setup again? (defgeneric foo (&rest r)) (defmethod foo (&key c) ...) (foo :d ...)?
2018-06-20T14:37:19Z makomo: yup
2018-06-20T14:38:04Z makomo: clhs 7.6.4
2018-06-20T14:38:04Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2018-06-20T14:38:25Z makomo: and as we said, case 4 shouldn't apply in this case, since the GF doesn't have a &key in its lambda list
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2018-06-20T14:40:13Z Bike: Yeah I think that's a bad keyword.
2018-06-20T14:41:53Z makomo: i haven't checked other implementations though, only SBCL
2018-06-20T14:42:34Z makomo: welp, clisp does signal an error
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2018-06-20T15:22:45Z xificurC: (let ((x '(1 2 3))) (check-type x ?)) to check if x is a list of numbers with unknown length
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2018-06-20T15:24:22Z loke: xificurC: I'd use (assert (alexandria:sequence-of-length-p x 3))
2018-06-20T15:24:50Z pjb: check-type does more than assert!
2018-06-20T15:25:10Z loke: pjb: Agreed, but I never use those things :-)
2018-06-20T15:25:11Z sjl: (defun list-of-numbers-p (list) (and (listp list) (every #'numberp list)))
2018-06-20T15:25:22Z sjl: (check-type x '(satisfies list-of-numbers-p)
2018-06-20T15:25:34Z loke: sjl: that's a good one
2018-06-20T15:25:42Z pjb: xificurC: (defun list-of-number-p (x) (and (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:proper-list-p x) (every (function numberp) x)))
2018-06-20T15:25:59Z pjb: sjl: listp = (or consp null) !!!
2018-06-20T15:26:04Z makomo: pjb: what does it do? i just tried to use it like (check-type (name spec) symbol), where NAME is a reader function, and i'm getting warnings since CHECK-TYPE is expanding into (setf (name spec) ...)
2018-06-20T15:26:06Z pjb: sjl: it doesn't test if the argument is a list.
2018-06-20T15:26:07Z sjl: pjb: I am aware of this
2018-06-20T15:26:24Z pjb: makomo: try it on a simple case: (let ((x 'foo)) (check-type x 'integer) x)
2018-06-20T15:26:25Z sjl: pjb: are you saying NIL should not be considered a list of numbers?
2018-06-20T15:26:53Z _death: makomo: the first argument should be a place
2018-06-20T15:26:58Z pjb: sjl: no, I'm saying '(#C(42 -2) 3/4 . 42) is not a list of numbers.
2018-06-20T15:27:13Z pjb: And neither is #1=( 1 2 . #1# )
2018-06-20T15:27:31Z loke: You could also do
2018-06-20T15:27:31Z sjl: pjb: the second one absolutely is a list of numbers, it's just infinite
2018-06-20T15:27:34Z makomo: _death: oh hmm right
2018-06-20T15:27:37Z pjb: when you say list, you usually mean proper-list.
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2018-06-20T15:27:42Z makomo: _death: which means that it must be SETF-able?
2018-06-20T15:27:47Z loke: (check-type x (cons number (cons number (cons number null))))
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2018-06-20T15:28:35Z _death: makomo: yes.. check-type sets up restarts that may modify place to have a value of the proper type
2018-06-20T15:28:36Z pjb: xificurC: also notice that (every 'numberp '( 2/3 5.5 #c(1 2) )) #| --> t |#
2018-06-20T15:28:56Z makomo: _death: ahh, right, didn't think of that
2018-06-20T15:29:13Z sjl: sure, use (alexandria:proper-list-p list) instead of listp if you want to enforce proper lists
2018-06-20T15:29:37Z pjb: Sometimes you want to implement your own I/O loop validating the type of the inputs (notably if you have to do some parsing or conversions), but in simplier cases, check-type is a great operator!
2018-06-20T15:30:31Z sjl: ctypecase is similarly handy
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2018-06-20T15:57:53Z Xach: I haven't tried ctypecase at all!
2018-06-20T15:58:15Z Xach: I like cerror and try to use it when I can. I didn't really think about it for a long time.
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2018-06-20T16:15:19Z jeosol: morning guys
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2018-06-20T16:16:06Z beach: Hello jeosol.
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2018-06-20T16:20:45Z jeosol: Hi beach.
2018-06-20T16:22:08Z jeosol: I want to thank you and all the other guys who responded and helped with query regarding the Optimization Challenge I was participating in. I recently received notice (recently) that my initial results where accepted and I should send additional info
2018-06-20T16:22:30Z jeosol: this was a late notice because it was sent last month, and due to some mailing issue, i could respond.
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2018-06-20T16:23:19Z jeosol: I'll need to get some AWS machines to run rest of the cases. Currently research how to replicate an initial EC2 because manual install is a pain. Not a cloud expert.
2018-06-20T16:25:06Z beach: Congratulations!  Though I don't think I was of any direct help.  At least, I can't find any trace in the logs that I was.
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2018-06-20T16:31:16Z jeosol: Really. I can't remember all the names of my head. aeth, jackdaniels, Bike, ...
2018-06-20T16:31:34Z Bike: i sorta remember. you're welcome
2018-06-20T16:31:48Z jeosol: it was a lot of questions over several weeks, so I can't remember all the names
2018-06-20T16:32:19Z jeosol: I was getting the system to work in a stable fashion then, working with many threads, etc.
2018-06-20T16:32:52Z jeosol: I did actually get a lot of help initially with the folks at comp.lang.lisp before I got here, but that site got very toxic so I stopped going there, but still read the questions occasionally
2018-06-20T16:35:14Z kuribas: So I found out I can get similar performance as in haskell by using (unsigned-byte 56) instead of fixnum.
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2018-06-20T16:35:58Z kuribas: might have been nice if that was suggested instead of a lecture on safety...
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2018-06-20T16:36:23Z beach: It was suggested.  Not by me, though.
2018-06-20T16:36:51Z kuribas: safety didn't seem to make a real difference.
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2018-06-20T16:39:40Z jeosol: jackdaniel: I am sending you a bottle of your name.
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2018-06-20T16:41:04Z jackdaniel: jeosol: cool :-)
2018-06-20T16:42:04Z jackdaniel: is there a reason for that? also – where did you find my address? unless it is a virtual bottle…
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2018-06-20T17:16:34Z ultimate_beginne: Hello beach, aeth, white_flame!
2018-06-20T17:16:53Z ultimate_beginne: And all
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2018-06-20T17:21:29Z ultimate_beginne: Would it be fair to say that C FFI is a lisp DSL for writing low-level operations? Woke up pondering the question.
2018-06-20T17:22:09Z p_l: ultimate_beginne: depends on the actual implementation, but no
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2018-06-20T17:22:20Z p_l: LAP would be the DSL
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2018-06-20T17:31:47Z ultimate_beginne: I guess I'm thinking along the lines of (defmacro low-level (...) (...dsl similar to loop macro but with keywords for pointers, volatile, restrict, etc...))
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2018-06-20T17:32:19Z ultimate_beginne: Essentially a compiler.. I suppose.
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2018-06-20T17:35:15Z White_Flame: FFI gives you data access to low-level memory, and the ability to call low-level code.  It doesn't let you write low-level operations directly
2018-06-20T17:35:26Z White_Flame: in terms of code
2018-06-20T17:35:54Z White_Flame: however, the native code Lisp compilers are written in Lisp, and can be extended
2018-06-20T17:38:58Z ultimate_beginne: I see
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2018-06-20T17:57:01Z jeosol: jackdaniel: Yes, virtual bottle, don't have your address
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2018-06-20T18:20:57Z jackdaniel: oh, I'm disappointed now
2018-06-20T18:21:10Z jackdaniel: you've put my hopes high
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2018-06-20T19:28:50Z knobo: jackdaniel: does ecl garbage collect functions that is defined with a gensym as name?
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2018-06-20T19:30:08Z knobo: jackdaniel: like this: (defmacro def () (let ((n (gensym))) `(defun ,n () (format nil "t"))))
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2018-06-20T19:35:25Z jackdaniel: knobo: I think it doesn't, but I don't know it as a fact
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2018-06-20T23:20:05Z Ukari: is defmacro has different with eval in efficiency?
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2018-06-20T23:23:55Z Ukari: for example, (defmacro excute (&body expr) `(progn ,@expr)) (excute (print "foo") (print "bar")) and (eval (list 'progn (list 'print "foo") (list 'print "bar")))
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2018-06-20T23:26:58Z Bike: you're comparing apples and oranges
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2018-06-20T23:57:17Z White_Flame: defmacro will give your expr to be compiled at compiled time, and run at runtime
2018-06-20T23:57:34Z White_Flame: eval will compile and run at runtime (for implementations which auto-compile)
2018-06-20T23:58:04Z White_Flame: plus, since macros return source code that art part of a compilation unit, they're better tied to their surroundings than a standalone eval
2018-06-20T23:58:11Z White_Flame: *are
2018-06-20T23:59:03Z White_Flame: especially since macros can be inside lexical scopes
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2018-06-21T00:37:22Z White_Flame: Are there examples of binary websockets served by CL somewhere?
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2018-06-21T01:11:56Z LdBeth: Any recommendations on persistent object store implementations
2018-06-21T01:12:22Z akkad: LdBeth: sure, leveldb, lmdb, and manardb
2018-06-21T01:12:47Z akkad: the first two use cffi and external libs, but manardb only uses osicat
2018-06-21T01:14:01Z akkad: manardb uses clos, and is the more lispy
2018-06-21T01:14:50Z LdBeth: Thanks, I will have a look
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2018-06-21T01:18:25Z LdBeth: akkad: I saw manardb only support Linux
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2018-06-21T01:25:01Z akkad: it works on macos too
2018-06-21T01:25:32Z akkad: https://github.com/danlentz/manardb might work on bsds as well
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2018-06-21T01:28:41Z LdBeth: akkad: Got it.
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2018-06-21T04:50:31Z akkad: manard is a lot faster than the other two, but not very acid complaint.
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2018-06-21T05:13:17Z knobo: In my slime buffer, at the top, I have a line saying "SBCL Port: ... Pid: ...". How can I add (machine-instance) to that line?
2018-06-21T05:14:22Z akkad: M-x customize-group RET slime
2018-06-21T05:14:44Z akkad: should be in there, otherwise might have to check the slime elisp code
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2018-06-21T05:15:13Z knobo: Ah... it's called header-line
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2018-06-21T05:29:07Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-21T05:32:43Z akkad: morning beach
2018-06-21T05:32:52Z akkad: how's the wife and kids?
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2018-06-21T09:22:40Z loke: Is there a reasonably widely-available mechanism to find the arglist of a function?
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2018-06-21T09:23:11Z loke: There is an SBCL-specific call in the CL-CLTL2 package, but is there some library that attempts to expose this?
2018-06-21T09:23:31Z jackdaniel:  there is a portability library trivial-arguments
2018-06-21T09:23:58Z loke: ah
2018-06-21T09:24:02Z loke: Sounds good
2018-06-21T09:24:38Z jackdaniel: however it has this "artistic license", I don't know what that means
2018-06-21T09:24:51Z jackdaniel: (and what are the implications)
2018-06-21T09:25:04Z loke: jackdaniel: Similar to Apache license, if I';m not mistaken
2018-06-21T09:25:14Z loke: Isn't it the license used for Perl?
2018-06-21T09:27:54Z jackdaniel: I don't know and at this moment I'm not particularily interested in examining it
2018-06-21T09:28:12Z loke: jackdaniel: a reasonable stance
2018-06-21T09:28:34Z jackdaniel: according to spdx it is not a libre license, so I'd personally avoid it (https://spdx.org/licenses/)
2018-06-21T09:28:49Z jackdaniel: ftr, apache is different along that axis
2018-06-21T09:29:23Z jackdaniel: sorry, 2.0 is libre, I've read it wrong
2018-06-21T09:31:16Z loke: Yeah, I just read the license
2018-06-21T09:31:19Z loke: Seems reasonable
2018-06-21T09:31:47Z loke: It seems if I change it and distibute the changed version I need to change the package name. I can live with that.
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2018-06-21T11:55:19Z jeosol: morning guys/gals
2018-06-21T11:56:24Z beach: Hello jeosol.
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2018-06-21T11:56:48Z jeosol: I have recently tried to setup an ec2 instance manually CL, it was a pain. Does anyone have an automated setup?
2018-06-21T11:56:52Z jeosol: morning beach
2018-06-21T11:57:36Z jeosol: primary I use SBCL and had to bootstrap it with CCL, I must be doing something wrong, or not aware of betters ways to set this up
2018-06-21T11:57:57Z JuanDaugherty: there's a thing for that (besides quicklisp) roswell or something like that
2018-06-21T11:58:06Z _death: use docker?
2018-06-21T11:58:27Z jeosol: I would need a better way, I want to essentially, push my setup to the bare aws ec2 and have things almost good to go (of course push lisp code, etc)
2018-06-21T11:58:37Z JuanDaugherty: normal thing would be to use the distro's sbcl then build current with that
2018-06-21T11:59:46Z jeosol: I have data, other executables (some to run with wine), files, etc to be able to run. Some dude on aws reddit suggested I set up on instance, take a snapshot, then I can replicate that instance. It has been a pain to set up one
2018-06-21T12:01:30Z jeosol: Besides setting up SBCL, quicklisp etc, I have to copy over some directories (with data), some other executables, and other minor stuff. e.g., have python available for some ML stuff.
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2018-06-21T12:02:05Z jeosol: I would like to have a clean way to do this, even if a bit painful to setup. I will then create other instances of this setup for use later. This is my use case.
2018-06-21T12:02:26Z JuanDaugherty: yeah roswell, on github
2018-06-21T12:02:41Z jeosol: _death: Thanks for the suggestion. at this time, I am not a docker expert, and it is something I am trying to learn, had it recommended a few times.
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2018-06-21T12:02:56Z shrdlu68: jeosol: ansible?
2018-06-21T12:02:59Z jackdaniel: roswell was notriously buggy for me (I had 3 approaches to it)
2018-06-21T12:03:15Z JuanDaugherty: https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki
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2018-06-21T12:03:37Z jackdaniel: putting aside lack of ability to install custom (hand-build lisp) it had problems with installing implementations supplied by itself
2018-06-21T12:04:42Z jackdaniel: jeosol: when you download SBCL release tarball you may extract it and call install.sh; prebuilt x86-64 binaries are supplied
2018-06-21T12:04:46Z JuanDaugherty: i've not actually used it and i only actually use the tarball + ql
2018-06-21T12:04:47Z jackdaniel: s/supplied/included/
2018-06-21T12:04:51Z jeosol: I spent so much time trying to install SBCL on the bare ec2 machine, tried cmucl (different versions, had errors), eventually ccl worked. then quicklisp, ..., I rather spend some time on a easier, less error prone set up now
2018-06-21T12:05:01Z JuanDaugherty: (plus the distros sbcl)
2018-06-21T12:05:29Z jackdaniel: jeosol: I don't know why your instance doesn't work, but I'm succesfully using there extracted sbcl tarball with run_sbcl.sh script (without installing whatsoever)
2018-06-21T12:05:31Z jeosol: jackdaniel: yes, I did that intially, but when I run, I was getting some pid error main() function, and landing in ldb debugger or something
2018-06-21T12:05:38Z JuanDaugherty: it should just be a few command from a new ec2 instance
2018-06-21T12:05:46Z JuanDaugherty: apt-get install sbcl
2018-06-21T12:05:52Z jeosol: jackdaniel: not sure, that setup you described worked on my machine
2018-06-21T12:05:59Z JuanDaugherty: then run the sbcl make.sh from the tarball
2018-06-21T12:06:08Z JuanDaugherty: *commands
2018-06-21T12:06:19Z jackdaniel: jeosol: maybe you assign too little of ram to the instance?
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2018-06-21T12:06:26Z jackdaniel: or something in this spirit
2018-06-21T12:06:32Z JuanDaugherty: maybe recreate the instance and start over?
2018-06-21T12:06:37Z jeosol: jackdaniel: I see
2018-06-21T12:07:01Z jeosol: JuanDua...: haha
2018-06-21T12:07:12Z jeosol: oh men, I spent last few hours running around this
2018-06-21T12:07:20Z jeosol: I have sbcl working on now.
2018-06-21T12:07:23Z JuanDaugherty: don't install slime from the distro, i've never figure out how that's supposed to work
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2018-06-21T12:07:31Z JuanDaugherty: *figured
2018-06-21T12:07:40Z shrdlu68: It oughtn't be painful at all.
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2018-06-21T12:07:59Z jeosol: I copied slime from my local setup, I don't plan to do much remote coding though (hopefully). Just need to move setup, run code there
2018-06-21T12:08:00Z jackdaniel: jeosol: what was the problem then?
2018-06-21T12:08:30Z shrdlu68: jeosol: You could just compile to executable binaries.
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2018-06-21T12:09:58Z jeosol: jackdaniel: SBCL works now, but the sbcl binary option was landing in ldb debugger with some main() functionstuff .
2018-06-21T12:10:02Z jeosol: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/runtime/runtime.c
2018-06-21T12:10:31Z jeosol: I was getting error on line 750 of that link.
2018-06-21T12:11:12Z jeosol: shrdlu68: not sure I mentioned this, I eventually use the source and compiled with ccl
2018-06-21T12:11:21Z JuanDaugherty: *apt-get, yum, whatever
2018-06-21T12:11:56Z jeosol: basically, because of the huge dependencies for my setup, I want to have a way to automate most of the work
2018-06-21T12:12:02Z shrdlu68: jeosol: I meant that you could deploy your app as an executable.
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2018-06-21T12:12:15Z jeosol: shrdlu68: I see what you mean
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2018-06-21T12:13:01Z shrdlu68: jeosol: These days, the fashionable thing is to try and get a single executable if you can, or use tools like ansible or containers.
2018-06-21T12:13:09Z jeosol: better I was thinking of having a copy of code on remote. Not a good idea I suppose
2018-06-21T12:13:31Z jeosol: I am no devops expert. That makes a lot of sense I guess
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2018-06-21T12:15:24Z shrdlu68: jeosol: A bash script will do just fine if you make it error-resilient.
2018-06-21T12:15:55Z jeosol: Has anyone had to replicate cloud machine instances, if so what approach do you use. It may be better to setup one, test that it works, and get more instances from that if needed. Is this approach ok?
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2018-06-21T12:17:27Z JuanDaugherty prefers bash script independent of the hosting vendor, ec2-tools there
2018-06-21T12:17:47Z JuanDaugherty: (i.e. aws-cli)
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2018-06-21T12:18:38Z jeosol: JuanDuag..: ok. Independent setup is nice so I am not tied to provider.
2018-06-21T12:19:46Z jeosol: guess I have to do some more digging around.
2018-06-21T12:21:30Z jeosol: shrdlu68: what approach (ansible, container) would you recommend.
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2018-06-21T12:25:54Z shrdlu68: Ansible might be more straight-forward. Have your code in some revision control, pull it and build it where you want.
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2018-06-21T12:29:11Z jeosol: shrdlu68: It seems that is the option closer to what I was thinking. I have a repo on ec2 and can push the code there.
2018-06-21T12:29:40Z jeosol: shrdlu68: thx
2018-06-21T12:31:46Z jeosol: Thanks. I will look into the suggestions: roswell, ansible, etc. ...
2018-06-21T12:32:31Z jeosol: after relaxing, see a soccer game.
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2018-06-21T12:36:50Z shrdlu68: ool
2018-06-21T12:36:59Z shrdlu68: *Cool
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2018-06-21T12:41:53Z shrdlu68: Format strings look a bit like APL code.
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2018-06-21T12:43:55Z schweers: APL looks like format strings?
2018-06-21T12:45:07Z shrdlu68: A bit. A cryptic series of symbols.
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2018-06-21T12:45:47Z shrdlu68: How do I achieve this: (format t "~{~A,~}" (list 1 2 3 4))
2018-06-21T12:46:12Z schweers: I never used it, so I couldn’t properly comment anyway ;)
2018-06-21T12:46:31Z shrdlu68: => 1,2,3,4,
2018-06-21T12:46:31Z shrdlu68: without the trailing ,
2018-06-21T12:47:20Z schweers: huh, it seems like APL uses the ≠ character.  Must have been weird back then
2018-06-21T12:47:20Z jackdaniel: (format t "~{~A~^,~}" '(1 2 3 4))
2018-06-21T12:47:44Z jackdaniel: format is even less intelligible to me than loop tbh
2018-06-21T12:48:25Z shrdlu68: All we need is a good way to visualize it. Pretty colors, etc.
2018-06-21T12:48:45Z schweers: I guess proper balancing would be a good start
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2018-06-21T12:50:45Z splittist: With cl's read-macros etc. it's quite straightforward to annotate format strings. That it's not idiomatic means something. I'm not sure what.
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2018-06-21T12:52:39Z _death: (out (:s (list 1 2 3 4) :separator ","))
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2018-06-21T12:54:22Z jackdaniel: _death: is it taken from ytools?
2018-06-21T12:54:23Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: Neat, didn't know about ~^
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2018-06-21T12:55:51Z _death: jackdaniel: it kinda started from the ytools one.. https://github.com/death/constantia/blob/master/out.lisp
2018-06-21T12:57:17Z shrdlu68: There's a certain appeal to these cryptic, concise things: regex, format, etc. Maybe it's something I'll get over, like one of those funny stages people go through in life.
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2018-06-21T12:57:49Z _death: to me there's no appeal at all for structure in strings
2018-06-21T12:58:35Z jackdaniel: _death: thanks
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2018-06-21T13:01:49Z jmercouris: how can I write a new line with (write-sequence ...)?
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2018-06-21T13:02:49Z jmercouris: must I do (write-char ...)?
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2018-06-21T13:04:43Z jmercouris: I can't seem to get a newline to write into my file
2018-06-21T13:05:25Z jmercouris: I was writing to the wrong stream...
2018-06-21T13:06:33Z dlowe: if you have a string, write-line is pretty useful.
2018-06-21T13:06:46Z shrdlu68: #'terpri
2018-06-21T13:06:50Z dlowe: you can also use terpri
2018-06-21T13:06:53Z dlowe: hah. beat me to it.
2018-06-21T13:07:34Z dlowe: see, if they had just made the string argument to write-line optional, there wouldn't be a need for terpri
2018-06-21T13:07:54Z dlowe: I guess it'd still be annoying to specify the stream.
2018-06-21T13:08:04Z dlowe: (write-line "" stream)
2018-06-21T13:08:55Z jmercouris: interesting, didn't know about terpri
2018-06-21T13:09:04Z jmercouris: I'll stick with writing #\return
2018-06-21T13:09:11Z jmercouris: it seems more obvious to whoever will look at my code
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2018-06-21T13:10:15Z shrdlu68: #\return? Not #\newline?
2018-06-21T13:10:26Z jmercouris: either way
2018-06-21T13:10:47Z jmercouris: hold habits die hard
2018-06-21T13:10:51Z jmercouris: s/hold/old
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2018-06-21T13:12:14Z shrdlu68: May matter to whoever is parsing the file. #\return is ascii 13 whereas #\newline is ascii 10.
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2018-06-21T13:15:19Z dlowe: MacOS used to use 13 for line breaks. I think they switched to 10 on OS X
2018-06-21T13:16:27Z flip214: any IRONCLAD maintainers here? I'd appreciate to get the Ethereum version of KECCAK256 included, the difference is in the round constants: https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/30369/difference-between-keccak256-and-sha3
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2018-06-21T13:16:55Z Xach: flip214: I think the sharplispers repo is a good place to request that
2018-06-21T13:18:07Z flip214: Xach: thanks, will try. I got https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad as master location, which doesn't allow issues to be filed
2018-06-21T13:18:22Z Xach: flip214: That is not the master location any more.
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2018-06-21T13:22:09Z jkordani: jmercouris: also on ccl the default newline for streams is unix
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2018-06-21T13:25:37Z shrdlu68: #'read-line reads upto #\newline, doesn't consider #\readline a line separator.
2018-06-21T13:25:53Z shrdlu68: s/#\readline/#\return
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2018-06-21T13:28:02Z jmercouris: shrdlu68: Yeah, I changed it
2018-06-21T13:28:16Z jmercouris: I wasn't trying to imply I wasn't going to change it, just that it was out of habit :)
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2018-06-21T13:38:22Z flip214: Xach: ack.
2018-06-21T13:38:42Z flip214: I also pasted a snippet that calculates the round constants... I hope that this will be picked up soon.
2018-06-21T13:38:49Z flip214: [hint, hint ;]
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2018-06-21T13:58:35Z asarch: I was looking for the SlackBuild package of clisp and then I realized that it is part of the base installation of Slackware. SBCL actually uses it to compile itself
2018-06-21T13:59:29Z asarch: What could you do when you don't have a common Lisp compiler at hand to compile another Lisp compiler?
2018-06-21T13:59:48Z asarch: Is there a minimalist version for such as cases?
2018-06-21T14:00:12Z beach: asarch: You install a binary version of some existing system.
2018-06-21T14:02:19Z asarch: Thank you
2018-06-21T14:03:11Z beach: Or you can build CLISP with a C compiler and then SBCL with CLISP.
2018-06-21T14:03:26Z asarch takes notes...
2018-06-21T14:04:00Z shrdlu68: If you don't have a C compiler...
2018-06-21T14:04:39Z shka: some start with abcl instead
2018-06-21T14:05:02Z jackdaniel: sbcl builds with abcl?
2018-06-21T14:05:25Z Xach: I don't think SBCL builds with ABCL.
2018-06-21T14:05:33Z shka: oh
2018-06-21T14:05:43Z shka: i thought it does...
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2018-06-21T14:07:01Z shka: http://abcl-dev.blogspot.com/2011/08/building-sbcl-with-abcl.html it was capable to do so at some point at least
2018-06-21T14:07:09Z shka: don't know what happend in the meantime
2018-06-21T14:07:33Z asarch: "Slackware package /tmp/sbcl-1.4.8-x86_64-1_SBo.tgz created.": real    46m52.800s, user    42m57.057s, sys     2m41.174s
2018-06-21T14:07:40Z asarch: Yeah!
2018-06-21T14:08:10Z asarch: abcl?
2018-06-21T14:08:33Z shka: asarch: common lisp on JVM
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2018-06-21T14:08:47Z asarch: Clojure?
2018-06-21T14:08:51Z shka: not any lisp
2018-06-21T14:08:53Z shka: common lisp
2018-06-21T14:09:02Z asarch: I see
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2018-06-21T14:10:06Z asarch: CLISP is no longer available in Debian's repository
2018-06-21T14:10:06Z _death: 46m?..
2018-06-21T14:10:28Z asarch: I could compile it and then build the newest release of SBCL
2018-06-21T14:11:47Z shka: i think that debian has sbcl in the repo
2018-06-21T14:12:00Z asarch: An older release
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2018-06-21T14:13:01Z shka: i am not sure of anything at this point, but i THINK you can build sbcl with sbcl ;-)
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2018-06-21T14:13:36Z asarch: Interesting!
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2018-06-21T14:26:41Z loke: shka: Yes. of course you can build sbcl with sbcl
2018-06-21T14:27:04Z loke: If you need to bootstrap, the easiest solution is either ABCL or the binary distribution of SBCL
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2018-06-21T14:34:30Z beach: loke: Xach seems to think that SBCL can not be built using ABCL.
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2018-06-21T14:35:15Z Xach: I do think that, but not with strong conviction.
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2018-06-21T14:35:46Z Xach: My recollection was that only Clozure CL and CLISP are tested and work. I will look it up to see if that is accurate.
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2018-06-21T14:43:17Z shrdlu68: Is it the case that SBCL only needs a conforming implementation to build it?
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2018-06-21T14:44:30Z loke: beach: I have built SBCL with ABCL
2018-06-21T14:44:35Z loke: It was over a year abo. More lilely 2
2018-06-21T14:44:41Z beach: loke: OK.
2018-06-21T14:44:44Z loke: ago
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2018-06-21T14:58:44Z Xach: Ok, I think I was wrong about SBCL and ABCL. Sorry about that.
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2018-06-21T15:02:02Z Xach: Well, maybe not. My build process just failed.
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2018-06-21T15:05:34Z Xof: I can't remember what the ABCL problem is.  We don't build under gcl
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2018-06-21T15:05:47Z Xof: for a while, we built under piso's xcl, but now I can't build that any more :-(
2018-06-21T15:06:13Z Xof: I think we build under cmucl too
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2018-06-21T15:28:12Z loke: Xof: : Does it build on ECL?
2018-06-21T15:28:46Z jackdaniel: it does not
2018-06-21T15:29:06Z jackdaniel: I've fixed two build offenders 2 months ago, but it fails later in the process
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2018-06-21T15:32:09Z ebrasca: Hi
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2018-06-21T15:39:38Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTCt3mDZFis
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2018-06-21T15:41:28Z shangul: Hello ebrasca
2018-06-21T15:41:53Z beach: loke: Nice!
2018-06-21T15:43:42Z ebrasca: I remember someone here suggested me to make my fat32 portable between CL implementations.
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2018-06-21T15:43:57Z ebrasca: How I can make it? Some ideas?
2018-06-21T15:44:13Z beach: Why is it not portable now?
2018-06-21T15:44:33Z ebrasca: beach: Now it work with mezzano OS.
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2018-06-21T15:45:53Z shka: ebrasca: not a answer
2018-06-21T15:46:00Z beach: shka: Thanks.
2018-06-21T15:46:07Z beach: Isn't it just about reading and interpreting a sequence of bytes as directories and files?
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2018-06-21T15:46:57Z shka: it sounds like part of it
2018-06-21T15:47:04Z ebrasca: beach: Uses some mezzano only functions like read-sector and write-sector.
2018-06-21T15:47:28Z shka: ebrasca: perhaps you can split it into two parts
2018-06-21T15:47:50Z shka: one that is actually file system, second that handles fat32 format
2018-06-21T15:47:50Z beach: ebrasca: Isolate those parts in a separate module.
2018-06-21T15:48:19Z ebrasca don't undestand.
2018-06-21T15:48:39Z beach: ebrasca: I don't know whether this is feasible of course: ...
2018-06-21T15:49:48Z beach: ebrasca: Define two generic functions READ-SECTION and WRITE-SECTOR.  Let them take an additional argument CLIENT.  Create methods specializing on (CLIENT MEZZANO) that call the Mezzano operations with that name.
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2018-06-21T15:50:19Z beach: ebrasca: Other clients can then add methods for their particular version of those functions.
2018-06-21T15:52:56Z loke: beach: When I create a command table, how do I create a menu divider?
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2018-06-21T15:54:22Z beach: loke: As usual, I don't know.  I am looking in the specification now to see whether I can find something.
2018-06-21T15:55:02Z loke: It's in these menus here I want a divider: https://github.com/lokedhs/maxima-client/blob/master/src/cm
2018-06-21T15:55:17Z beach: 404
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2018-06-21T15:55:36Z loke: The documentation suggests there is a special value called :DIVIDER, but if I stick one of those into the list of entries, it doesn't even compile
2018-06-21T15:55:39Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/maxima-client/blob/master/src/cmdline.lisp#L393
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2018-06-21T15:55:43Z loke: (copy and paste error)
2018-06-21T15:56:27Z beach: ADD-MENU-ITEM-TO-COMMAND-TABLE takes a type :DIVIDER.
2018-06-21T15:57:05Z loke: So when I create it inline using an argument to MAKE-COMMAND-TABLE, it can't be done?
2018-06-21T15:57:19Z beach: Sounds strange.
2018-06-21T15:57:20Z random-nick: hello, is there any way to make a closure of the dynamic environment?
2018-06-21T15:57:30Z beach: random-nick: No.
2018-06-21T16:00:23Z beach: loke: It says that STRING in (string type value &key ...) does not have to be given when TYPE is :divider, but I don't know whether that means that NIL should be given instead.
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2018-06-21T16:03:26Z loke: beach: Thanks! It worked.
2018-06-21T16:03:36Z beach: random-nick: Scheme has call/cc but Common Lisp doesn't.  It could be a very costly thing to implement, plus the semantics can be very strange if, for instance, the same unwind-protect were to be executed more than once.
2018-06-21T16:03:44Z beach: loke: with NiL?
2018-06-21T16:03:48Z loke: Yes
2018-06-21T16:03:48Z beach: NIL?
2018-06-21T16:03:51Z beach: Excellent!
2018-06-21T16:04:18Z loke: Oh, you can also add a string to divider, and then it becomes a neat label. I wonder if that's standard.
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2018-06-21T16:05:26Z loke: beach: Tried the applicaiton yet?
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2018-06-21T16:24:33Z beach: loke: No.  I am not sure what to do with it.
2018-06-21T16:24:50Z beach: loke: Yes, the string divider is standard.
2018-06-21T16:25:08Z beach: "If STRING is supplied, it will be drawn as the divider instead of a line."
2018-06-21T16:25:36Z beach: loke: See ADD-MENU-ITEM-TO-COMMAND-TABLE (unless you are at work of course, but I suspect not at this time).
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2018-06-21T16:33:13Z random-nick: hm, does anybody know the state of GNU Kawa's Common Lisp implementation? the only thing I could find in Kawa's manual is that it is incomplete
2018-06-21T16:34:06Z beach: What are its main characteristics?
2018-06-21T16:34:06Z _death: isn't it a scheme
2018-06-21T16:34:10Z schweers: random-nick: isn’t kawa kinda-sorta a scheme?
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2018-06-21T16:35:11Z random-nick: yes, GNU Kawa is primarily a Scheme implementation for the JVM but it apparently has incomplete support for compiling Common Lisp and Emacs Lisp
2018-06-21T16:35:30Z schweers: I didn’t know that.  Interesting
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2018-06-21T16:38:57Z random-nick: is there some sort of test suite for common lisp implementations?
2018-06-21T16:39:23Z pjb: Tes.
2018-06-21T16:39:26Z schweers: random-nick: what do you want to test?  standard conformance?
2018-06-21T16:39:28Z pjb: Yes ;-)
2018-06-21T16:39:37Z random-nick: schweers: yes
2018-06-21T16:40:02Z jackdaniel: random-nick: there is: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/ansi-test
2018-06-21T16:40:14Z random-nick: thank you
2018-06-21T16:40:46Z jackdaniel: note that it doesn't cover everything, but a fair chunk of the issues may come when you test with it
2018-06-21T16:40:47Z pjb: You should update the cliki page, it contains outdated urls…
2018-06-21T16:41:16Z jackdaniel: it was originally written by Paul Dietz
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2018-06-21T16:43:26Z random-nick: oh, looks like kawa common lisp is really incomplete
2018-06-21T16:43:41Z random-nick: it doesn't even support the #+ reader macro
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2018-06-21T16:46:53Z Xach: random-nick: where can I learn more about kawa common lisp?
2018-06-21T16:47:07Z random-nick: that's what I'm trying to find out
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2018-06-21T16:48:29Z makomo: who maintains the common-lisp.net site?
2018-06-21T16:50:00Z loke: beach: Thanks a lot!
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2018-06-21T16:51:27Z MichaelRaskin: beach: would debug functionality like you have describe as a low-level functionality for clordane be useful if it is implemented as a library on top of SBCL with 10× slowdown for threads under debugging?
2018-06-21T16:51:33Z fe[nl]ix: makomo: see the channel #common-lisp.net
2018-06-21T16:52:11Z makomo: fe[nl]ix: i see :-)
2018-06-21T16:52:22Z fe[nl]ix: you see well
2018-06-21T16:53:05Z random-nick: Xach: looks like kawa common lisp really doesn't implement much of common lisp, it's useless for any real world use case
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2018-06-21T16:53:44Z schweers: random-nick: have you asked in any scheme or even kawa specific channels?
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2018-06-21T16:55:48Z random-nick: schweers: actually, I haven't done that yet
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2018-06-21T17:17:25Z Fade: greetings, fe[nl]ix
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2018-06-21T17:20:26Z fe[nl]ix: hey Fade :)
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2018-06-21T17:26:50Z Xach: random-nick: Is there a website?
2018-06-21T17:27:03Z Xach: random-nick: I have never heard of kawa common lisp and i really like to learn about common lisps.
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2018-06-21T17:28:05Z random-nick: Xach: it doesn't really have a website, it's just mentioned of the features page of Kawa Scheme
2018-06-21T17:28:13Z random-nick: https://www.gnu.org/software/kawa/Features.html
2018-06-21T17:28:32Z Xach: random-nick: Ah, ok, interesting.
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2018-06-21T17:29:13Z Xach: I didn't know it had something like that.
2018-06-21T17:29:26Z Xach: (even if it is incomplete)
2018-06-21T17:29:54Z dlowe: Pushing that towards completion would be a nice project for someone.
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2018-06-21T17:32:06Z jmercouris: has anyone investigated using a distributed package manager for CL? https://github.com/whyrusleeping/gx
2018-06-21T17:33:15Z aeth: There's a lot of things beyond the standard that libraries assume, too. For instance '(unsigned-byte 8) and 'single-float and 'double-float arrays are de facto standard even though the standard only requires bit and character. And there's probably a dozen portability libraries that express parts of the de facto standard, like bordeaux-threads and cffi.
2018-06-21T17:34:26Z aeth: Someone should probably make a complete list for implementors, if it doesn't already exist.
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2018-06-21T17:39:59Z dlowe: aeth: like in a common document repository?
2018-06-21T17:40:24Z Xach: runnable code would work.
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2018-06-21T17:41:51Z aeth: dlowe: CDR isn't up for me (did it move?), but I don't think that ever took off. Just a list of portability libraries and a test suite for some simple things libraries always assume like the array types would probably be better.
2018-06-21T17:44:36Z dlowe: heh. some clever person redirected it to Edi Weitz's homepage
2018-06-21T17:45:00Z aeth: Portability libraries would cover most things. I don't think there's a popular Unicode one, though.
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2018-06-21T17:46:51Z dlowe: cl-unicode?
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2018-06-21T17:48:21Z aeth: dlowe: I don't think that has as much as sb-unicode
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2018-06-21T18:07:25Z makomo: if i have a list bound to x and do something like (mapc (lambda (x) <body>) x), what x does "x" refer to within the body?
2018-06-21T18:07:50Z pjb: makomo: lexical binding. Check the parentheses.
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2018-06-21T18:08:09Z makomo: right, so the inner one?
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2018-06-21T18:09:28Z makomo: err nevermind, i started worrying about my sanity a little too early
2018-06-21T18:09:31Z makomo: found the culprit
2018-06-21T18:09:42Z jmercouris: has anyone investigated using a distributed package manager for CL? https://github.com/whyrusleeping/gx
2018-06-21T18:10:36Z pjb: makomo: https://pastebin.com/Pj7q9b0F
2018-06-21T18:11:00Z makomo: pjb: you shouldn't have, but thanks :-). i was only looking for quick sanity check
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2018-06-21T18:12:27Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I think so yes.  Do you have ideas on how to accomplish that?
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2018-06-21T18:13:49Z MichaelRaskin: beach: Yes, because it is a natural extension of what I did with wrapping local variables
2018-06-21T18:14:12Z beach: I see.
2018-06-21T18:14:22Z Ukari: could same name methods from defmethod have different parameters size?
2018-06-21T18:14:38Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Can it be done automatically or does the programmer have to put the wrapping code in manually?
2018-06-21T18:14:59Z beach: Ukari: The lambda lists must be congruent.
2018-06-21T18:15:32Z MichaelRaskin: You can redefine readtable; for example, one line per file works
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2018-06-21T18:16:00Z beach: Interesting.
2018-06-21T18:16:11Z beach: clhs 7.6.4
2018-06-21T18:16:11Z specbot: Congruent Lambda-lists for all Methods of a Generic Function: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_fd.htm
2018-06-21T18:16:23Z beach: Ukari: ↑
2018-06-21T18:17:28Z beach: MichaelRaskin: So I should start working on the Clordane implementation?
2018-06-21T18:19:27Z Ukari: i could specify parameter's type in defmethod's parameter, is it possible to specify a function with it's accept and return type?
2018-06-21T18:19:46Z beach: clhs ftype
2018-06-21T18:19:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
2018-06-21T18:19:47Z jmercouris: Ukari: one cannot define a return-type
2018-06-21T18:20:00Z beach: jmercouris: Oh?
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2018-06-21T18:20:19Z jmercouris: beach: not like in C they can't
2018-06-21T18:20:38Z jmercouris: last time I recall, the signature of defmethod didn't include "static void"
2018-06-21T18:20:39Z MichaelRaskin: beach: well, you might expect that clordane with Cleavir's first-class support wille be obviously better.
2018-06-21T18:20:40Z beach: Right, no curly parentheses.
2018-06-21T18:20:51Z beach: jmercouris: Did you see the link about FTYPE?
2018-06-21T18:20:56Z jmercouris: Yes I saw that
2018-06-21T18:21:04Z MichaelRaskin: And so Clordane for legacy implementations is just not worth the trouble.
2018-06-21T18:21:04Z beach: That includes the return type.
2018-06-21T18:21:47Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That's what I thought until you told me it was possible with SBCL.
2018-06-21T18:22:01Z jmercouris: Show me a defmethod with a specification of return type, and I'll agree
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2018-06-21T18:22:29Z jmercouris: but I think ftype is something different
2018-06-21T18:22:36Z MichaelRaskin: I could write the form wrapper part, but I prefer navigating traces to hand-stepping, so I am not a likely Clordane user… If you can give me a spec for low-level functionality, I might consider writing it just to show off Agnostic Lizard.
2018-06-21T18:22:48Z Bike: (declaim (ftype (function * integer) my-gf))
2018-06-21T18:22:49Z jmercouris: I am imagining (defmethod name 'string ...)
2018-06-21T18:23:12Z Bike: tells the compiler the generic function returns an integer
2018-06-21T18:23:16Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I'll give it some thought.
2018-06-21T18:23:20Z MichaelRaskin: beach: of course, ther eis a catch
2018-06-21T18:23:21Z jmercouris: I guess you could write a macro to do it
2018-06-21T18:23:36Z jmercouris: Alright, CL has function return types, you are correct :D
2018-06-21T18:23:42Z MichaelRaskin: Namely, this would debug the expansion of the code.
2018-06-21T18:23:54Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I see.
2018-06-21T18:24:29Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I'll think about it.  Right now I am off to spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2018-06-21T18:24:42Z MichaelRaskin: Have a nice evening
2018-06-21T18:24:47Z beach: You too.
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2018-06-21T18:25:12Z MichaelRaskin: Thanks
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2018-06-21T20:33:36Z imjacobclark: Hello - I am  trying to hook cl-json and MAKE-ARRAY up to get a JSON object  printed to  screen, however I keep running into Value #2A((("hello" . "world"))) is not of a type which can be encoded by ENCODE-JSON.
2018-06-21T20:33:43Z imjacobclark: This is the code I am trying...  (print (json:encode-json (make-array '(1 1) :initial-contents '( (("hello" . "world") )))))
2018-06-21T20:33:50Z imjacobclark: Could anybody help me out?
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2018-06-21T20:37:06Z Bike: cl-json doesn't have an encoder for multidimensional arrays by default, apparently
2018-06-21T20:37:24Z Bike: how do you want them to be encoded?
2018-06-21T20:38:06Z imjacobclark: Bike: so my main problem really is when passing encode-json a list that has a variable  in it, the variable isn't evaluated, the variables name ends up in the JSON
2018-06-21T20:38:15Z imjacobclark: For example the following  code...  (json:encode-json '#( ((foo . (1 2 3)) (bar . path) (baz . #\!)) "quux" 4/17 4.25 ))
2018-06-21T20:38:28Z Bike: that's not "a list that has a variable in it"
2018-06-21T20:38:39Z Bike: variables are not things you can pass. do you mean symbols?
2018-06-21T20:38:45Z imjacobclark: yes I believe I do
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2018-06-21T20:38:55Z imjacobclark: Sorry, I'm learning Lisp and this is me trying to solve a real world problem in it
2018-06-21T20:39:02Z Bike: Okay, well, see that '
2018-06-21T20:39:06Z Bike: that means nothing's getting evaluated
2018-06-21T20:39:38Z imjacobclark: Right I see - is there a way to get it to be evaluated? I was thinking make-array could do that
2018-06-21T20:39:38Z Bike: You could do, e.g., (json:encode-json (list foo 14)), and then encode-json will be passed a list with two elements, the first of which is whatever value the variable FOO has
2018-06-21T20:39:47Z imjacobclark: I  see okay
2018-06-21T20:40:00Z Bike: This is a matter of lisp semantics with no direct connection to cl-json
2018-06-21T20:40:34Z imjacobclark: Thanks for that pointer!
2018-06-21T20:40:43Z imjacobclark: Could you explain what the . means in the list ("something" . "something")
2018-06-21T20:40:51Z jmercouris: the dot is cons cell notation
2018-06-21T20:41:02Z Bike: It means that it's a "dotted list" rather than a "proper list".
2018-06-21T20:41:12Z Bike: (cdr '(a b)) => (B), versus (cdr '(a . b)) => B
2018-06-21T20:41:37Z Bike: '(a b) is the constant version of (cons 'a (cons 'b nil)), while '(a . b) is (cons 'a 'b)
2018-06-21T20:41:43Z jmercouris: damnit you type faster than me
2018-06-21T20:41:54Z imjacobclark: Okay I see
2018-06-21T20:42:30Z jmercouris: imjacobclark: this will be a very useful chapter for you: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html
2018-06-21T20:42:47Z imjacobclark: Thanks all I'll give that a read
2018-06-21T20:42:56Z imjacobclark: Still fighting with this example though, can't  settle my mind until I get it working
2018-06-21T20:43:04Z imjacobclark: I've  tried converting it to a list... (print (json:encode-json (list (("test" . (1 2 3))))))
2018-06-21T20:43:11Z imjacobclark: I get illegal function call now though lol
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2018-06-21T20:43:29Z jmercouris: yes you've double nested the list
2018-06-21T20:43:44Z Bike: I'm not sure what you expected that to do.
2018-06-21T20:43:45Z jmercouris: so it is trying to invoke a function ("test" . (1 2 3))
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2018-06-21T20:43:59Z imjacobclark: Hmm, so this example
2018-06-21T20:44:00Z Bike: You realize that "test" is a string, and not a symbol, so it doesn't mean a variable in any context?
2018-06-21T20:44:03Z jmercouris: imjacobclark: describe literally, what you are trying to do
2018-06-21T20:44:06Z imjacobclark: (json:encode-json '#( ((foo . (1 2 3)) (bar . path) (baz . #\!)) "quux" 4/17 4.25 ))
2018-06-21T20:44:14Z imjacobclark: that returns this json object...
2018-06-21T20:44:20Z jmercouris: ignore this example
2018-06-21T20:44:25Z jmercouris: simply describe what it is you are trying to do
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2018-06-21T20:44:31Z Bike: #( ...) is also literal syntax, i.e. no variables will have their values looked up.
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2018-06-21T20:44:41Z imjacobclark: Okay, I'd like a JSON object that looks like this... {"myKey": "myValue"}
2018-06-21T20:44:51Z imjacobclark: Where "myValue" is the value of a symbol
2018-06-21T20:45:10Z Bike: (list (cons "myKey" my-value)) i think?
2018-06-21T20:45:10Z jmercouris: imjacobclark: what do you mean the value of a symbol?
2018-06-21T20:45:20Z Bike: the value of a variable
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2018-06-21T20:45:43Z imjacobclark: yes variable, e.g in javascript I would do... let  myvar = "test"... {"myKey": myvar};
2018-06-21T20:45:46Z Bike: or (list (cons 'my-key my-value)) maybe.
2018-06-21T20:46:16Z imjacobclark: Aha thankyou
2018-06-21T20:46:17Z imjacobclark: that worked
2018-06-21T20:46:22Z imjacobclark: [clarkj84:~/common-lisp]$ ./make-array.ros                                                                                                                                                                                         (master✱)  {"myKey":1}
2018-06-21T20:46:28Z White_Flame: man, sometimes the array types can be annoying.  clack wants a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8)), and flexi-streams output returns a (vector (unsigned-byte 8)).  Simple-vector always uses element type T, so there's no "simple-vector" type that can be specialized to (unsigned-byte 8)
2018-06-21T20:46:28Z imjacobclark: {"myKey":1}
2018-06-21T20:46:41Z jmercouris: (cl-json:encode-json (list (cons "myKey" 10))) -> {"myKey":10}
2018-06-21T20:46:41Z imjacobclark: thanks for your help all
2018-06-21T20:46:54Z imjacobclark: i think it was the cons i needed
2018-06-21T20:47:03Z jmercouris: imjacobclark: it was a dotted pair that you needed
2018-06-21T20:47:17Z imjacobclark: a dotted pair - right... goes to read up on dotted pairs via http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/they-called-it-lisp-for-a-reason-list-processing.html
2018-06-21T20:47:25Z jmercouris: yes, you should read that section
2018-06-21T20:47:34Z imjacobclark: thanks all, this has been bugging me for 2 days
2018-06-21T20:47:35Z jmercouris: it's honestly not very exhaustive, but it should give you a head-start
2018-06-21T20:47:43Z Bike: White_Flame: i think the conversion is just (coerce flexi-streams-output 'simple-array), though.
2018-06-21T20:47:49Z jmercouris: it is as it reads, a practical explanation...
2018-06-21T20:47:59Z Bike: i think it copies the element type? not sure
2018-06-21T20:48:16Z Bike: mm, nope, has to be specified. bleh
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2018-06-21T20:56:47Z White_Flame: Bike: yeah, I have the coerce in there; not sure if it actually performs a data copy.  i would nope not, but the extra type checking is annoying in the inner core of I/O
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2018-06-21T20:59:15Z _death: it does copy.. maybe flexi-streams should be fixed to return a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8))
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2018-06-21T21:00:09Z Bike: yes, i'm surprised it doesn't.
2018-06-21T21:00:13Z Bike: maybe it's displaced?
2018-06-21T21:00:42Z White_Flame: well, which "more defining" of a datatype, the fact that it's simple, or the fact that it's a vector?
2018-06-21T21:00:53Z White_Flame: that's what doesn't combine well in the CLHS types
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2018-06-21T21:01:51Z Bike: maybe flexi streams should be fixed to return a simple array, i mean
2018-06-21T21:02:06Z Bike: a (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))
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2018-06-21T21:33:57Z whartung: while I can dispatch a generic function on a structure type, I can’t “inherit” from a structure, I need to recode them all as classes first in CLOS, right? (I have a bunch of structs and am just lazy enough to not convert them into defclass if I don’t have to)
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2018-06-21T21:51:21Z White_Flame: structs themselves support single inheritance
2018-06-21T21:51:31Z whartung: via include, right?
2018-06-21T21:51:37Z White_Flame: yeah
2018-06-21T21:51:48Z White_Flame: but if you want more than that, yeah you have to CLOSify
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2018-06-21T21:54:45Z whartung: so if I have (defstruct xxx a b c) and (defstruct (yyy (:include xxx)) x y z) and (defmethod m1 (arg1 xxx)) and (defmethod m2 (arg1 xxx)) and (defmethod m2 (arg1 yyy)), will those work as expected? Is there a relationship between xxx and yyy or is it simplty structural?
2018-06-21T21:55:44Z Bike: whartung: yes, yyy is a subclass of xxx
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2018-06-21T21:57:34Z whartung: ah cool! Well, that makes it easy then — I don’t have to class-ify them then…Because I mostly want to specialize behavior, not structure. So I should be able to (defstruct xxx a b c) and then simply (defstruct (yyy (:include xxx))) and method dispatch should Just Work.
2018-06-21T21:59:57Z whartung: ty all.
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2018-06-22T00:19:28Z mfiano: Does anyone know how to use the type pattern in trivia, on arguments of a list, and also bind the arguments for use in the clause body?
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2018-06-22T01:03:22Z jack_rabbit: sbcl 1.4.8
2018-06-22T01:03:34Z jack_rabbit: Can anyone quickload string-case?
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2018-06-22T01:08:00Z jack_rabbit: my SBCL seems to have an issue with the package interning sb-vm::xor
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2018-06-22T01:17:50Z jack_rabbit: hmmmm. I don't seem to be able to unlock the package either.
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2018-06-22T01:24:08Z jack_rabbit: Ahh, I see: https://github.com/pkhuong/string-case/commit/718c761e33749e297cd2809c7ba3ade1985c49f7
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2018-06-22T02:24:47Z LdBeth: Is there any systems still support message passing style OOP?
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2018-06-22T02:32:02Z loke: LdBeth: “message passing” is just a terminology thing
2018-06-22T02:32:12Z loke: It just depends on what you call it
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2018-06-22T02:49:52Z jack_rabbit: LdBeth, You mean like (message object arg) ?
2018-06-22T02:50:28Z jack_rabbit: hmm. actually nevermind. I was confused.
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2018-06-22T02:54:38Z White_Flame: of course, for erlang-style mailbox based asynchronous message passing, there are libs in quicklisp
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2018-06-22T03:04:12Z LdBeth: jack_rabbit: (send 'obj :message)
2018-06-22T03:04:26Z jack_rabbit: That's right.
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2018-06-22T03:04:51Z White_Flame: sending to the symbol OBJ sounds a bit esoteric ;)
2018-06-22T03:06:25Z LdBeth: That’s actually analogous to (funcall 'foo)
2018-06-22T03:06:33Z White_Flame: in the simplest case, (defmacro send (obj message) `(,(first message) obj ,@(rest message))), where the first element of the message is a generic function name
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2018-06-22T03:06:49Z White_Flame: s/obj/,obj
2018-06-22T03:07:17Z White_Flame: rework using APPLY for non-literal messages
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2018-06-22T03:12:35Z LdBeth: (DEFUN send (obj &rest args) (apply (first args) obj . (cdr args)))
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2018-06-22T03:14:35Z LdBeth: https://github.com/Kalimehtar/message-oo
2018-06-22T03:14:47Z LdBeth: This seems to be what I want
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2018-06-22T03:38:36Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-22T03:38:46Z loke: I recall having an extended debate with someone on social media where it was claimed to me that “message passing” was a fundamentally different way to do object orientation. I desperately tried to get this person to explain exactly how it was different, other than a superficial syntactic different (and a difference in the way the actual technical working were explained to the programmer), but I never got any proper answer.
2018-06-22T03:39:13Z beach: Of course you didn't.
2018-06-22T03:39:34Z beach: People like to argue without having the proper knowledge.
2018-06-22T03:40:24Z pillton: I thought there were proposals where each object had its own thread.
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2018-06-22T03:41:20Z loke: pillton: Yes, that would be Erlang style.
2018-06-22T03:41:28Z loke: pillton: But that's not object orientation :-)
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2018-06-22T03:55:21Z pillton: I am not sure about that. Alan Kay said "I thought of objects being like biological cells and/or individual computers on a network, only able to communicate with messages ..." (http://www.purl.org/stefan_ram/pub/doc_kay_oop_en). I am probably misquoting.
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2018-06-22T03:57:48Z pillton: You would think there would be some link between that and the actor model.
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2018-06-22T03:58:42Z pillton: Anyway, I'll shut up because I don't really know and because I have to go to a meeting.
2018-06-22T03:58:50Z beach: Heh.
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2018-06-22T04:01:54Z mfiano: Is anyone really familiar with the trivia library? I cannot seem to figure out how to compose the 'struct/class' and 'place' patterns, such that I can match a struct and define symbol macros for their slots in the process. Thanks.
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2018-06-22T04:09:30Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I don't know how feasible your idea of hooking Clordane up to SBCL is, but you gave me a similar, but different, idea.  I can create a Cleavir-based compiler for SBCL that propagates source information to executable code and that adds the interaction code required by Clordane.  Again, it won't be as fast as native SBCL, but it will me much easier than to wait for a native SICL executable.
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2018-06-22T04:13:55Z jack_rabbit: Morning, beach!
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2018-06-22T04:15:29Z beach: MichaelRaskin: It would still take some time to create Clordane and this Cleavir-based SBCL compiler, of course.  But such a thing would allow me to debug SICL code in a very comfortable environment without having to deal with the additional problems of a native SICL executable.
2018-06-22T04:16:27Z beach: MichaelRaskin: So I will probably move Clordane closer to the top of the list of projects to work on.
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2018-06-22T04:45:28Z LdBeth: Low cost abstraction is useful
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2018-06-22T05:12:55Z asarch: bar and baz both have the foo function. How could I shado baz::foo instead of bar::foo?
2018-06-22T05:13:28Z asarch: (defpackage :asarch (:use :common-lisp :bar :baz) (:shadow :foo))?
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2018-06-22T05:14:03Z beach: asarch: It is a bad idea to :USE packages other than COMMON-LISP.  Use explicit package prefixes instead.
2018-06-22T05:14:39Z beach: asarch: your code will be much clearer, because the person reading it will know from which package the symbols came.
2018-06-22T05:15:00Z asarch: Ok
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2018-06-22T05:15:07Z asarch takes notes...
2018-06-22T05:15:08Z beach: asarch: Plus, if you find yourself needing two ::, then you are doing something wrong.
2018-06-22T05:15:54Z beach: It means you are violating the public protocol of those packages, OR that you didn't design those packages correctly (in case you are the author).
2018-06-22T05:15:56Z asarch: Well, I just used that symbol because the REPL from SBCL uses it
2018-06-22T05:16:17Z beach: Then you are doing something wrong because those symbols are not exported.
2018-06-22T05:17:09Z loke: beach: OR you might be dealing with code designed in the 60's :-)
2018-06-22T05:17:11Z asarch: Ok
2018-06-22T05:17:13Z makomo: morning :-)
2018-06-22T05:17:28Z loke: Interfacing with maxima involves a lot of ::
2018-06-22T05:17:47Z MichaelRaskin: beach: I thought a bit, and as long as you accept limitations about not being able to see return value of top-level eval-when, the rest seems very feasible and not too much work.
2018-06-22T05:17:56Z beach: If a package P is not yours and you do a :USE P, you expose yourself to future modifications of P.  If, in the future, the author of P decides to add new functions to the public protocol(s), then your code could break with a conflicting-symbols error even though you have not changed anything.
2018-06-22T05:18:09Z beach: Hello makomo.
2018-06-22T05:18:36Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Sounds good to me.
2018-06-22T05:19:17Z jack_rabbit: asarch, do you understand the difference between the single : and double ::?
2018-06-22T05:19:35Z asarch: No, I don't
2018-06-22T05:19:37Z MichaelRaskin: Probably the eval-when problem can be solved with a few tons of annoying special-casing.
2018-06-22T05:19:45Z beach: Heh.
2018-06-22T05:19:53Z asarch: My brain has :: from C++
2018-06-22T05:19:54Z beach: asarch: Oh!  Sorry.
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2018-06-22T05:20:02Z beach: asarch: I thought you did.
2018-06-22T05:20:10Z asarch: Don't worry
2018-06-22T05:20:12Z asarch: :-)
2018-06-22T05:20:28Z beach takes a break and will be back in a few hours.
2018-06-22T05:20:32Z jack_rabbit: asarch, So double colon references symbols interned by a package. Single colon can only be used to reference symbols *exported* by the package.
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2018-06-22T05:21:16Z jack_rabbit: asarch, So packages export symbols they intend to be used. A library will export functions it wants library users to call, constants, variables, etc.
2018-06-22T05:21:53Z jack_rabbit: asarch, internal variables, functions, etc. that it doesn't want a user to use, it doesn't export.
2018-06-22T05:22:21Z jack_rabbit: asarch, So when using a package, you should (almost always) only use the exported symbols (single colon)
2018-06-22T05:23:11Z jack_rabbit: asarch, That's why beach said you're either doing something wrong, or the package creator did something wrong, if you're using the double colon to use non-exported symbols.
2018-06-22T05:23:46Z jack_rabbit: asarch, make sense?
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2018-06-22T05:24:58Z asarch: Sure!
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2018-06-22T05:25:53Z jack_rabbit: Oh, minor note. Symbols that can be accessed with a single colon can *also* be accessed with a double colon. It's just best practice to use the single colon.
2018-06-22T05:26:31Z asarch: (defpackage :bar (:use :common-lisp) (:export :foo)), (defpackage :baz (:use :common-lisp) (:export :foo)) <- I don't want to use :foo from baz in :asarch
2018-06-22T05:27:08Z jack_rabbit: asarch, Right, so in asarch, don't :use :bar nor :baz
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2018-06-22T05:27:38Z jack_rabbit: asarch, Then you can explicitly reference either with bar:foo or baz:foo
2018-06-22T05:27:52Z asarch: But what if I would like to use other functions exported by baz
2018-06-22T05:28:06Z jack_rabbit: asarch, packages have access to other loaded packages, even without :use'ing them.
2018-06-22T05:28:21Z jack_rabbit: asarch, same thing. Just baz:whatever-exported-function
2018-06-22T05:29:02Z asarch: If I do: (defpackage :asarch (:use :common-lisp :bar :baz)), I would conflict the REPL at the time when I use (foo), right?
2018-06-22T05:29:22Z jack_rabbit: asarch, You would conflict when you load the package.
2018-06-22T05:29:33Z asarch: How could I avoid it'
2018-06-22T05:29:34Z asarch: ?
2018-06-22T05:29:41Z jack_rabbit: asarch, don't :use either.
2018-06-22T05:29:46Z jack_rabbit: just (:use :common-lisp)
2018-06-22T05:29:55Z jack_rabbit: <jack_rabbit> asarch, packages have access to other loaded packages, even without :use'ing them.
2018-06-22T05:30:29Z jack_rabbit: asarch, It's not like java or python, etc. where you have to import packages to have access to them.
2018-06-22T05:30:30Z asarch: (defpackage :asarch (:use :common-lisp)) <- But any other functions in bar or in baz would not be accessible
2018-06-22T05:30:38Z jack_rabbit: asarch, wrong.
2018-06-22T05:30:50Z asarch: ?
2018-06-22T05:30:58Z jack_rabbit: You just have to preface them with the package name.
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2018-06-22T05:31:13Z jack_rabbit: (bar:whatever-function argument)
2018-06-22T05:31:14Z asarch: How?
2018-06-22T05:31:28Z asarch: Oh
2018-06-22T05:31:30Z asarch: Thank you!
2018-06-22T05:31:30Z jack_rabbit: (baz:some-other-function another-argument)
2018-06-22T05:31:32Z jack_rabbit: np
2018-06-22T05:31:37Z asarch: Thank you very much jack_rabbit :-)
2018-06-22T05:31:50Z jack_rabbit: :)
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2018-06-22T05:36:08Z jack_rabbit: asarch, When you :use a package, it just imports all that package's symbols into the target package, so they can be used as if they were part of the target package.
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2018-06-22T05:37:04Z asarch: Ok
2018-06-22T05:37:04Z jack_rabbit: That's what beach advised against. Using explicit package prefixes makes the code clearer, since you can tell at the call site where functions, etc. reside.
2018-06-22T05:37:29Z asarch: I thought this was more like Pythons import statement
2018-06-22T05:37:49Z jack_rabbit: Yes, I can totally understand the confusion. :)
2018-06-22T05:38:03Z asarch: from gi.repository import Gtk
2018-06-22T05:38:20Z jack_rabbit: right.
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2018-06-22T05:38:32Z asarch: Thank you very much once again jack_rabbit :-)
2018-06-22T05:38:36Z jack_rabbit: np
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2018-06-22T05:38:52Z asarch: Everything is in my notes now
2018-06-22T05:39:46Z jack_rabbit: It makes sense once you get used to it. It's just a little different than a lot of common systems.
2018-06-22T05:39:55Z asarch: Common Lisp is wonderful gentlemen!
2018-06-22T05:40:02Z jack_rabbit: Yes!
2018-06-22T05:40:06Z jack_rabbit hurrahs
2018-06-22T05:40:14Z asarch: Cheers! o/
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2018-06-22T05:43:07Z asarch: Have a nice day
2018-06-22T05:43:12Z asarch: See you later :-)
2018-06-22T05:43:24Z jack_rabbit: o/
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2018-06-22T07:29:41Z verisimilitude: Are you currently here, jackdaniel?
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2018-06-22T07:32:25Z verisimilitude: I wanted to make you aware of an article I've written that is related to yours:
2018-06-22T07:32:25Z verisimilitude: http://verisimilitudes.net/2018-06-22
2018-06-22T07:33:12Z verisimilitude: This is what I've been meaning to do since first reading your ``CL-CHARMS Crash Course''; it's a first draft, but I'll work on improving it later.
2018-06-22T07:33:24Z verisimilitude: Well, that's all.
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2018-06-22T07:54:37Z beach: jackdaniel: Unless you are in a very good mood, my advice is for you to ignore that link.
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2018-06-22T08:16:03Z imjacobclark: Are there any good pieces of literature on how nreverse works?
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2018-06-22T08:21:09Z beach: I can explain it to you if you want.
2018-06-22T08:21:22Z jackdaniel: beach: no worries, I've barely understood 1/10th of it
2018-06-22T08:21:31Z beach: jackdaniel: Heh!
2018-06-22T08:22:40Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: calling people idiots is not the best way of communicating your ideas
2018-06-22T08:22:41Z imjacobclark: beach: that would be awesome if you could
2018-06-22T08:23:38Z beach: imjacobclark: You mean for a list, right?
2018-06-22T08:24:10Z imjacobclark: yeah (nreverse 1  2  3  4)
2018-06-22T08:24:41Z beach: imjacobclark: Do you want code or words?
2018-06-22T08:25:09Z imjacobclark: both, if that's okay?
2018-06-22T08:25:20Z beach: Sure.  I'll start with code.  Hold on...
2018-06-22T08:27:31Z beach: https://pastebin.com/F6M1JrRR
2018-06-22T08:27:45Z beach: I hope that works.  I am not used to pastebin.
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2018-06-22T08:28:04Z beach: Oh, bad indentation because of TABs.
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2018-06-22T08:29:02Z beach: https://pastebin.com/KrpZWeuH
2018-06-22T08:29:30Z beach: imjacobclark: You initialize a variable RESULT to the empty list.
2018-06-22T08:29:54Z beach: imjacobclark: And you initialize a variable REMAINING to the entire list.
2018-06-22T08:30:15Z beach: You then loop until there are no more CONS cells on the list REMAINING.
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2018-06-22T08:30:46Z beach: In each iteration, you remove a CONS cell from the beginning of REMAINING, and you stick it first on the list RESULT.
2018-06-22T08:31:11Z beach: When you are done, all the initial CONS cells are on REMAINING in reverse order.
2018-06-22T08:31:20Z beach: Finally, return REMAINING.
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2018-06-22T08:32:35Z beach: imjacobclark: Clear?  Questions?
2018-06-22T08:32:42Z imjacobclark: beach: just  reading up
2018-06-22T08:33:34Z imjacobclark: Ah, okay I see!
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2018-06-22T08:36:19Z imjacobclark: That makes total sense, thanks beach !
2018-06-22T08:36:27Z beach: Good!
2018-06-22T08:37:39Z beach: Er, when you are done, all the initial CONS cells are on RESULT (not REMAINING) in reverse order.
2018-06-22T08:37:50Z beach: Finally, return RESULT (not REMAINING).
2018-06-22T08:37:53Z beach: Sorry about that.
2018-06-22T08:38:00Z beach: But you got it anyway.
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2018-06-22T08:49:36Z verisimilitude: I suppose you're right; I've changed the wording, jackdaniel.
2018-06-22T08:50:16Z verisimilitude: I suppose xterm is just carrying on the UNIX way of making up stardards and violating real ones, anyway.
2018-06-22T08:50:24Z verisimilitude: So, what else did you think of it?
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2018-06-22T08:53:30Z beach: verisimilitude: Your code has several style issues.
2018-06-22T08:54:15Z verisimilitude: It could be better, yes, but my main intent was showing how easy it is to write this functionality without using Ncurses.
2018-06-22T08:55:49Z verisimilitude: The code in ACUTE-TERMINAL-CONTROL is much better; I've updated it, but not yet published that update; the article is a ``crash course'' for that, in a way.
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2018-06-22T09:04:16Z verisimilitude: Anyway, what would those style issues be, in your opinion, beach?
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2018-06-22T09:05:02Z jmercouris: any way to get slime to open up in the same window?
2018-06-22T09:05:11Z jmercouris: instead of just randomly splitting the window and ending up somewhere in the frame?
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2018-06-22T09:10:12Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: can I use it in my gnome-terminal? because if not, I'm definetely not your target audience
2018-06-22T09:11:01Z verisimilitude: I do extensive testing in gnome-terminal, actually, because I like its looks.
2018-06-22T09:11:05Z jackdaniel: and as I've said, examples weren't complete programs and I hardly understood 10% of it
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2018-06-22T09:11:35Z verisimilitude: I'm only using standard ECMA-48 control functions, so most any terminal should work with it.
2018-06-22T09:12:32Z beach: verisimilitude: It is not just my opinion.  It is also that of Peter Norvig and Kent Pitman.  Can I assume you have read their "LUV slides" on Good Lisp Programming Style?
2018-06-22T09:12:57Z verisimilitude: It looks like the culprit, jmercouris, is the pop-to-buffer in slime-start.
2018-06-22T09:13:05Z verisimilitude: So, start looking there.
2018-06-22T09:13:16Z verisimilitude: I've not, no, beach.
2018-06-22T09:13:27Z beach: Then I suggest you start with that.
2018-06-22T09:13:33Z beach: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
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2018-06-22T09:14:50Z beach: In particular, page 13.
2018-06-22T09:14:54Z jmercouris: verisimilitude: I'll take a look, thanks
2018-06-22T09:15:18Z jmercouris: beach: When should I use a macro instead of a function?
2018-06-22T09:15:36Z jmercouris: I've been thinking about this for months now, and I'm still never sure
2018-06-22T09:15:57Z beach: jmercouris: When you need a different evaluation rule than a function provides, i.e, you don't want all the arguments to be evaluated.
2018-06-22T09:16:48Z jmercouris: Ah
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2018-06-22T09:17:15Z jmercouris: that makes some sense
2018-06-22T09:17:22Z jmercouris: what about implementing a macro that uses a macro?
2018-06-22T09:17:31Z jmercouris: I'm thinking about a macro for a common conditional case
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2018-06-22T09:17:40Z jmercouris: but I'm building up that macro with an if block
2018-06-22T09:18:01Z beach: Sure, you can use a macro both in the expander code and in the expanded code.  That's not a problem.
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2018-06-22T09:18:16Z jmercouris: my macro is something like (with-conditional-execution ...)
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2018-06-22T09:18:26Z jmercouris: and within with-conditional-execution, I'm checking some boolean and branching
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2018-06-22T09:18:33Z francogrex: Hi, I wonder if someone could help me understand why when I load this clsql asdf there is a recompilation every time (!) https://pastebin.com/Ad0aVkuC
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2018-06-22T09:18:36Z jmercouris: its just syntactic sugar, works just fine by nesting the condition in each spot
2018-06-22T09:18:44Z jmercouris: but I wasn't sure whether it demanded a function or a macro
2018-06-22T09:18:44Z verisimilitude: That doesn't really tell me much at the present, beach.
2018-06-22T09:18:51Z shrdlu68: Heh, I like what (reduce #'list '(0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9) :from-end t) does.
2018-06-22T09:18:52Z jmercouris: because of course it could be done with a function as well
2018-06-22T09:18:56Z beach: verisimilitude: Sorry to hear that.
2018-06-22T09:19:11Z shrdlu68: => (0 (1 (2 (3 (4 (5 (6 (7 (8 9)))))))))
2018-06-22T09:19:17Z francogrex: I understand that the first time use this is expected but every new time is weird
2018-06-22T09:19:51Z beach: verisimilitude: For instance, in (OR CURSOR (error ...)), you are violating one of the rules on page 13.
2018-06-22T09:20:01Z jmercouris: francogrex: maybe your machine is wiping out some parts of disk?
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2018-06-22T09:20:13Z makomo: jmercouris: some macros are written just for the purpose of writing macros for example
2018-06-22T09:20:15Z jmercouris: francogrex: some config in some cahched dir?
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2018-06-22T09:20:25Z makomo: jmercouris: see WITH-GENSYMS and ONCE-ONLY :-)
2018-06-22T09:20:31Z makomo: ONCE-ONLY is especially interesting ;-)
2018-06-22T09:20:49Z jmercouris: makomo: I don't see that in the hyperspec
2018-06-22T09:20:59Z makomo: jmercouris: yeah, they're not in there
2018-06-22T09:21:04Z makomo: they're part of alexandria for example
2018-06-22T09:21:13Z makomo: (i say for example, since they're mentioned in a lot of places)
2018-06-22T09:21:15Z verisimilitude: I'd not seen the PDF you'd linked, until now.
2018-06-22T09:21:21Z jmercouris: makomo: Ah ok
2018-06-22T09:21:26Z verisimilitude: I'll give that page thirteen a quick look, beach.
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2018-06-22T09:21:42Z beach: verisimilitude: I think you should read the entire thing.
2018-06-22T09:21:44Z makomo: jmercouris: i think both PCL and PAIP mention ONCE-ONLY
2018-06-22T09:22:11Z francogrex: jmercouris: ok it seems the fasl files compiled by asdg are still were they are (cached)
2018-06-22T09:22:16Z jmercouris: here is my macro for reference: https://gist.github.com/15acdd2b6ef7f6f14e4c8741b748be7a
2018-06-22T09:22:28Z jmercouris: makomo: I don't remember it I guess
2018-06-22T09:22:33Z beach: verisimilitude: So when you said "That doesn't really tell me much at the present", you hadn't really looked at it yet?
2018-06-22T09:22:37Z jmercouris: I am just wondering if my macro is excessive, or I should use a function or idk
2018-06-22T09:22:54Z verisimilitude: My connection issues happened before you'd submitted the PDF.
2018-06-22T09:23:04Z verisimilitude: So, I only saw it in the logs.
2018-06-22T09:24:22Z makomo: jmercouris: using a function in this case would mean that you would still have to use a conditional within the caller
2018-06-22T09:24:39Z jmercouris: otherwise both branches would get evaluated
2018-06-22T09:24:41Z jmercouris: aha!
2018-06-22T09:24:46Z jmercouris: YES!
2018-06-22T09:24:54Z jmercouris: I think I am finally starting to truly understand one of the strenghts
2018-06-22T09:24:59Z jmercouris: s/strenghts/strengths
2018-06-22T09:25:11Z makomo: i think you misunderstood me, but if i correctly see what you're thinking, that's correct i guess
2018-06-22T09:25:21Z makomo: i meant that if with-logged-in was a function instead, not the IF
2018-06-22T09:25:40Z makomo: i.e. if you wanted a "function version" of with-logged-in
2018-06-22T09:25:43Z jmercouris: I'm saying that if "with-logged-in" is a function, the body of whatever you pass to it will get evaluated
2018-06-22T09:25:51Z jmercouris: and that is not something we want
2018-06-22T09:25:52Z makomo: right, that's true
2018-06-22T09:25:56Z makomo: right
2018-06-22T09:26:04Z makomo: i was thinking of something like: say you make something like "logged-in-p"
2018-06-22T09:26:04Z jmercouris: I've been studying Lisp now for like 8 months I think
2018-06-22T09:26:12Z jmercouris: and I feel like there is still so much that hasn't clicked
2018-06-22T09:26:14Z makomo: i.e. replace the functionality of the macro with a function
2018-06-22T09:26:25Z makomo: you would have to do the IF explictily every time
2018-06-22T09:26:29Z jmercouris: ah, I wasn't thinking of a predicate
2018-06-22T09:26:37Z makomo: if that's something that happens so often, then WITH-LOGGED-IN might be a good idea
2018-06-22T09:26:41Z jmercouris: yeah, sorry, it was clear in my head :)
2018-06-22T09:26:44Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-22T09:26:45Z jmercouris: I should have said it out loud!
2018-06-22T09:26:57Z makomo: but if this session check happens only a few times, factoring it out in a macro might be an overkill
2018-06-22T09:27:05Z jmercouris: It happens very frequently
2018-06-22T09:27:09Z jmercouris: and in many routes
2018-06-22T09:27:31Z makomo: then i guess it makes sense to write it
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2018-06-22T09:28:10Z makomo: what i was trying to say is that, without macros, you would be forced to do this conditional in the function that calls LOGGED-IN-P
2018-06-22T09:28:33Z jmercouris: yes, I see
2018-06-22T09:28:34Z makomo: or maybe you would have something like CHECK-LOGGED-IN that would somehow do a non-local transfer of control or something? idk
2018-06-22T09:28:56Z makomo: perhaps throw an error and catch it somewhere else, but then you're using errors for control flow and i don't know how good is that
2018-06-22T09:29:13Z jmercouris: no, I think this way makes sense
2018-06-22T09:29:14Z makomo: maybe CL has different guidelines regarding that since the condition/signal system is more powerful
2018-06-22T09:29:22Z makomo: yeah, i'm also for the macro
2018-06-22T09:29:29Z makomo: this is something you don't get in other languages
2018-06-22T09:29:31Z makomo: which is very nice
2018-06-22T09:29:34Z jmercouris: that it is
2018-06-22T09:29:39Z verisimilitude: The condition system isn't just for errors.
2018-06-22T09:30:06Z verisimilitude: Control flow and message passing are explicit parts of it.
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2018-06-22T09:30:20Z makomo: verisimilitude: yeah i suppose so, but i haven't seen any usages yet where it was used to guide "normal" control flow
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2018-06-22T09:30:36Z jmercouris: You could use any try-catch system for flow control
2018-06-22T09:30:41Z jmercouris: the fact of the matter is that people use it for errors
2018-06-22T09:30:48Z verisimilitude: Using CATCH and THROW is what I prefer.
2018-06-22T09:30:52Z makomo: jmercouris: yes, and that is often regarded as a bad practice
2018-06-22T09:30:56Z verisimilitude: You don't need to define a condition, then.
2018-06-22T09:31:11Z jmercouris: makomo: I was just trying to illustrate a point
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2018-06-22T09:34:52Z verisimilitude: So, I prefer (OR ... ...) rather than (IF (NOT ...) ...), beach.
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2018-06-22T09:35:54Z beach: verisimilitude: Yes, I figured you would say that.  But style issues are not about personal preference but about communication with other people.  If you submit your code for others to read, it would be polite to respect such conventions rather than insisting on your own personal preference.
2018-06-22T09:36:36Z verisimilitude: Well, I like that Common Lisp is a language without kings and other such things.
2018-06-22T09:36:48Z beach: Good for you.
2018-06-22T09:36:51Z verisimilitude: There is no official Common Lisp style.
2018-06-22T09:37:01Z verisimilitude: There never will be, either.
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2018-06-22T09:44:47Z dim: Norvig's guide is very good
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2018-06-22T09:45:07Z dim: and beach has some opinions that makes your code better when you apply them, too
2018-06-22T09:45:48Z verisimilitude: Well, it's just example code.  I'd be interested in other critiques about it, though.
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2018-06-22T09:45:52Z dim: I'm in the middle of rewriting a PR due to code style issues, and I don't like doing it, but I appreciate that the result is worth it
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2018-06-22T09:48:33Z beach: verisimilitude: Style issues are distractions to the people reading your code.  You can't expect people to ignore those issues and concentrate on something else, simply because the distraction is too great.  It is sort of like asking someone to comment on the contents of a novel that is full of typos, typesetting problems, grammar mistakes, etc.
2018-06-22T09:48:41Z jmercouris: I think that verisimilitude was looking for something higher level
2018-06-22T09:48:58Z beach: jmercouris: See my previous remark then.
2018-06-22T09:49:04Z jmercouris: well yeah, I see it
2018-06-22T09:49:12Z verisimilitude: Pretend the OR isn't there, then.
2018-06-22T09:49:12Z jmercouris: maybe you and I are different, but I can read code that is not in my style
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2018-06-22T09:49:33Z jmercouris: I often have to read massive, old codebases that include many different styles as they evolved
2018-06-22T09:49:36Z beach: Conventions are about avoiding distractions so that people can concentrate on the essence.  Programmers who don't understand that have not understood the first rule of programming.
2018-06-22T09:49:51Z dim: code should show the developer's intentions
2018-06-22T09:49:52Z jmercouris: Its not that I do not understand, it is that I have no choice
2018-06-22T09:50:19Z verisimilitude: My intention was to show how simple it is to write terminal manipulation programs without Ncurses.
2018-06-22T09:50:37Z jmercouris: Well, I think your intention might have been a little different
2018-06-22T09:50:45Z jmercouris: I didn't see the original draft before it was changed
2018-06-22T09:50:53Z jmercouris: but I think your first intention was to show how clever you are
2018-06-22T09:51:12Z jmercouris: of course, I am assuming, and we know the old saying...
2018-06-22T09:51:21Z verisimilitude: I only changed a few words, jmercouris, since submitting it here.
2018-06-22T09:52:07Z verisimilitude: I don't quite like the CFFI, jmercouris; ideally, no Common Lisp program should be using a C program for anything.
2018-06-22T09:52:21Z jmercouris: I know a lot of people feel that way
2018-06-22T09:52:43Z jmercouris: personally I do not mind it, if it is correct code, and it works, it could be written in potato
2018-06-22T09:52:46Z verisimilitude: The loading mechanism is also, as I've found, fragile, and you can very easily be prevented from loading a program because it can't find some shared library somewhere.
2018-06-22T09:53:03Z jmercouris: that's a problem for all C programs, not just within the realm of CFFI
2018-06-22T09:53:15Z verisimilitude: I know.
2018-06-22T09:53:31Z jackdaniel: NIH syndrome is strong in Lisp community, that's a well known fact
2018-06-22T09:53:43Z verisimilitude: For something as benign as terminal manipulation, it's surprising Ncurses was ever used like this.
2018-06-22T09:53:49Z jackdaniel: interesting (for me) is the fact, that we can talk about two NIH variants (both popular)
2018-06-22T09:53:58Z verisimilitude: It's less than one thousand lines to replace it with something better.
2018-06-22T09:53:59Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: what are the two variants?
2018-06-22T09:54:01Z jackdaniel: NIH as in "not CL" and NIH as in "not written by me in CL"
2018-06-22T09:54:07Z jmercouris: Oh lol
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2018-06-22T09:54:18Z jmercouris: The second variant is worse I think
2018-06-22T09:54:27Z jmercouris: lots of CL libraries do the same things over and over
2018-06-22T09:54:46Z jmercouris: despite such a small community, one would imagine less duplication of efforts
2018-06-22T09:55:21Z verisimilitude: I prefer this way to the alternative; I wouldn't want Common Lisp to be like, say, Go.
2018-06-22T09:55:48Z jmercouris: CL needn't become useless to avoid duplication
2018-06-22T09:58:04Z LdBeth: >> “lots of CL libraries do the same things over and over” like what
2018-06-22T09:58:20Z verisimilitude: Well, there's several different Ncurses bindings.
2018-06-22T09:58:20Z jmercouris: LdBeth: there's many different web frameworks, for example
2018-06-22T09:58:38Z jmercouris: sure, they do things in different ways
2018-06-22T09:58:39Z LdBeth: Like what?
2018-06-22T09:58:58Z jmercouris: but communities with 10x, 100x as many users have the same amount of web frameworks
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2018-06-22T10:01:05Z verisimilitude: This is a good document so far, beach, sans that note about IF, WHEN, and OR I disagree with.
2018-06-22T10:01:16Z beach: jmercouris: "number".  Amount of stuff, number of things.
2018-06-22T10:02:16Z jmercouris: beach: not sure what you mean, I did isearch-backward and I didn't say number or "amount of stuff"
2018-06-22T10:02:20Z verisimilitude: In section 4.1, I find something else.
2018-06-22T10:02:33Z beach: jmercouris: You said "amount of web frameworks".
2018-06-22T10:02:40Z jmercouris: Oh, I see
2018-06-22T10:02:52Z jmercouris: Right yes, I meant number
2018-06-22T10:02:53Z beach: But web framework is countable, so you should have used "number of web frameworks".
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2018-06-22T10:03:03Z verisimilitude: I'm not always inclined to create a class or struct when I want a record; usually, it's more convenient to use a list and simply control all ways things are modified.
2018-06-22T10:03:32Z jackdaniel: they (frameworks) probably passed this strange point where numbers become amounts, we can't count them anymore ;-)
2018-06-22T10:04:12Z jmercouris: what we need is another standard! ;)
2018-06-22T10:04:12Z jackdaniel: that only proves, that we have so many (much!) of them :)
2018-06-22T10:04:23Z verisimilitude: I'm certainly not going to make types that are simply standard types with a documentation string attached.
2018-06-22T10:04:28Z beach: Does the same thing hold true for "game engines"?
2018-06-22T10:05:08Z LdBeth: I think one of few things been invented a lot of times in CL is markup language
2018-06-22T10:05:20Z beach: verisimilitude: Using a list is fine, as long as you wrap it in a consistent protocol.  I suspect you wouldn't do that, though.
2018-06-22T10:05:29Z verisimilitude: Well, I do.
2018-06-22T10:05:48Z beach: verisimilitude: Then you would have more code than if you did it with a standard class.
2018-06-22T10:06:19Z verisimilitude: I'd rather use standard types if I can, then introduce my own types and then functions that only work on those types.
2018-06-22T10:06:32Z beach: ... :accessor bla, vs (defun bla (thing) (car thing)) (defun (setf bla) (new-value thing) (setf (car bla) new-thing))
2018-06-22T10:07:01Z verisimilitude: One of my favorite type sysetms is APL's; you have arrays or single values of numbers or characters and that's it.
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2018-06-22T10:09:14Z LdBeth: CL can also restrict type in an ARRAY
2018-06-22T10:09:17Z TMA: verisimilitude: try the type system of MUMPS, even simpler... you have string and associative array (each variable is both at once, and each variable value is both at once, although expression values are just strings)
2018-06-22T10:09:47Z schweers: in forth one has the machine word ;P
2018-06-22T10:09:54Z verisimilitude: Yes, LdBeth; that's interesting, TMA.
2018-06-22T10:10:06Z jackdaniel: I like the binary type system, everything is either 1 or 0 ;-) that said I'll check on later \o
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2018-06-22T10:10:45Z verisimilitude: The ``type system'' of a typical machine code is what enables its homoiconicity, so, yes, it's very nice.
2018-06-22T10:11:34Z loke: TMA: What is the string prepresentation of an associative array in MIMS?
2018-06-22T10:11:36Z loke: MUMPS
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2018-06-22T10:15:03Z xificurC: I have a function that is used from a script and is calling exit at the end. Invoking that in the slime REPL exits the session :)
2018-06-22T10:15:24Z jmercouris: xificurC: that makes sense, no?
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2018-06-22T10:15:44Z verisimilitude: Maybe you should use RETURN-FROM, xificurC, right?
2018-06-22T10:15:44Z xificurC: jmercouris: yes, not very convenient though :)
2018-06-22T10:16:26Z xificurC: when writing bash scripts and calling a script from the repl the script is a forked process so it exits with an exit code and you're back in the shell
2018-06-22T10:16:53Z verisimilitude: Bash has many design oddities.
2018-06-22T10:17:39Z loke: verisimilitude: Bash is reasonably sensible. What aspects of it do you feel that is odd? (as opposed to its ancestors)
2018-06-22T10:18:17Z verisimilitude: Well, I can't rightly criticize Bash if I don't get to criticize sh and everything else.
2018-06-22T10:18:38Z loke: verisimilitude: Right. It's not bash's fault that the language it shit
2018-06-22T10:18:45Z TMA: loke: there is no string representation of an array (that is no "builtin" string representation) you can write your own, eg.: a="a" a("a")="a" a("a","a")="a"
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2018-06-22T10:18:46Z verisimilitude: Of course not.
2018-06-22T10:18:51Z loke: I feel Bash did as best as it could.
2018-06-22T10:19:59Z verisimilitude: I mostly use sh for writing programs to launch my real programs.  I'd hate more to do anything else in it.
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2018-06-22T10:25:50Z verisimilitude: Peter Norvig doesn't seem to like PROG at all.
2018-06-22T10:27:48Z loke: verisimilitude: Who does? It's kinda useless.
2018-06-22T10:27:58Z shrdlu68: Hardly ever use it outside macros.
2018-06-22T10:28:05Z verisimilitude: Well, I like it.
2018-06-22T10:28:34Z loke: verisimilitude: For what?
2018-06-22T10:29:19Z verisimilitude: I use it for control flow when the other options are less elegant.
2018-06-22T10:30:14Z verisimilitude: If you want efficiency, it's virtually guaranteed you're going to get a better expansion than LOOP; LOOP implementations are generally quite poor in that respect.
2018-06-22T10:31:13Z verisimilitude: What does SBCL's LOOP MACROEXPAND to, SB-LOOP::LOOP-BODY; that's very informative.
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2018-06-22T10:45:58Z verisimilitude: Well, that was a pleasant read, beach.
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2018-06-22T10:47:27Z beach: Good.
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2018-06-22T10:49:41Z verisimilitude: I didn't disagree with most of it.
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2018-06-22T10:50:11Z verisimilitude: I still don't plan to use more than one semicolon for comments, though.
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2018-06-22T10:50:22Z beach: Of course.
2018-06-22T10:52:59Z verisimilitude: Now, with regards to my article, I can recognize the obvious issues with DRAW-WINDOW-BORDER and how some of the other functions could be cleanly split into more parts, but I was aiming for one direct purpose for each function and doing otherwise would've distracted from the actual points being made, I think.
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2018-06-22T11:18:38Z aeth: verisimilitude: I find that the often-neglected DO is a nice middle ground between LOOP and TAGBODY/PROG, especially for macros instead of direct use.
2018-06-22T11:18:59Z aeth: DO also tends to have a straightforward macroexpand-1, unlike LOOP, and you *can* put GO in it if you need to.
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2018-06-22T11:21:29Z aeth: As for PROG, it's so rare to use it directly that emacs/slime doesn't even correctly format it iirc, unlike tagbody.
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2018-06-22T11:23:41Z aeth: As for sh, imo it's only a good choice for < 20 lines or so, but it's pretty hard to beat for those < 20 lines.
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2018-06-22T11:26:39Z LdBeth: Only reason to use sh is for portability, because Perl is not standardized enough
2018-06-22T11:28:05Z aeth: I've always thought that the optimal length of a scripting language file is about 100 lines.
2018-06-22T11:29:32Z aeth: That's 5x longer than my intuition for sh. And it does seem to match my experience in trying to convert sh to a scripting language, even CL + UIOP.
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2018-06-22T11:31:14Z dim: is there some docs online showing how to compile SBCL with say openssl already linked in the ELF binary (avoiding dlopen)?
2018-06-22T11:32:25Z aeth: Some people were experimenting with packaging libraries with binaries in #lispgames so they might have an answer if no one in here knows. (As for me, I never got to the binary part.)
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2018-06-22T11:34:15Z LdBeth: dim: there’s some technique prepend linked libraries into binary
2018-06-22T11:35:24Z dim: LdBeth: any known howto/document to do that?
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2018-06-22T11:46:16Z beach: dim: Why do you want to avoid dlopen?
2018-06-22T11:46:36Z beach: dim: I don't know the issue, so it's a serious question.
2018-06-22T11:47:34Z dim: because it may dlopen a different ssl lib at build-time and at run-time, and then the lisp image contains symbols that are not found, and then I don't undertand anything other than it fails
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2018-06-22T11:48:26Z beach: Oh, I see.  This is C stuff so you can't just do save-lisp-and-die?
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2018-06-22T11:50:50Z jackdaniel: dim: doesn't (cl+ssl:reload) help with that?
2018-06-22T11:51:00Z dim: ahah, I wish
2018-06-22T11:52:25Z shka: how stable-sort checks of equality?
2018-06-22T11:52:59Z jackdaniel: it takes predicate as an argument
2018-06-22T11:53:06Z jackdaniel: it is up to your function you pass to it
2018-06-22T11:53:57Z beach: shka: It assumes a total ordering, so if neither (funcall less x y) nor (funcall less y x) is true, then it assumes x and y are equal.
2018-06-22T11:54:13Z beach: shka: Same thing for ordinary sort.
2018-06-22T11:54:24Z beach: Not particular to stable-sort.
2018-06-22T11:54:33Z shka: oh
2018-06-22T11:54:36Z shka: makes sense!
2018-06-22T11:54:53Z shka: thanks for answer
2018-06-22T11:54:59Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-22T11:55:00Z jackdaniel: stability only ensures, that if a preceedes b, and neither is lessp then the other, then a will preceede b in the resulting sequence
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2018-06-22T12:00:28Z beach: shka: Right.  STABLE-SORT typically does not have to test for equality.  It just makes sure that the order is not altered unless the second is strictly less than the first.
2018-06-22T12:01:47Z shka: got it, thanks
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2018-06-22T12:20:20Z beach: Speaking of which, there is a related project that could result in an ELS paper.  It is known that merge sort (which is stable) is faster than quicksort (which is not).  But naive merge sort requires O(n) additional memory to sort a vector (but not a list).  There are research papers that turn that into O(1) but at a cost.  The project is to implement merge sort on vectors by checking whether there is available space on the stack.  If
2018-06-22T12:20:20Z beach: so, use it to make merge sort fast.  If not, use one of the published algorithms to make it correct but slower.
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2018-06-22T12:24:32Z beach: No takers?
2018-06-22T12:24:35Z beach: Aww! :(
2018-06-22T12:25:14Z shka: beach: you have patience of 5 years old :]
2018-06-22T12:25:15Z jmercouris: beach: I'm interested
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2018-06-22T12:25:39Z beach: shka: Thanks (I guess)!
2018-06-22T12:25:57Z beach: jmercouris: I'll point you to some papers if you like.
2018-06-22T12:26:03Z jmercouris: sure, email me them
2018-06-22T12:26:11Z beach: Will do.
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2018-06-22T12:27:19Z shka: simply dynamic-excent array if?
2018-06-22T12:27:19Z shka: like a separate branch?
2018-06-22T12:27:20Z shka: beach: can I also get those papers, please?
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2018-06-22T12:29:01Z beach: Oh, sure.  What's your address again?
2018-06-22T12:29:13Z shka: sirherrbatka at gmail please
2018-06-22T12:29:44Z beach: Done.
2018-06-22T12:29:58Z shka: thank you
2018-06-22T12:30:22Z beach: There are only two papers, but there are others in the list of references.
2018-06-22T12:30:24Z shka: i need some kind of sorting for cl-ds anyway...
2018-06-22T12:31:55Z beach: shka, jmercouris: now that I think about it.  Those papers may not be available for free, so be careful what you do with them.
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2018-06-22T12:32:35Z jmercouris: beach: Ok
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2018-06-22T12:33:57Z shka: beach: i am not going to take it to academia, i just need runnable code :P
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2018-06-22T12:34:38Z beach: shka: Sure.  Still, someone needs to write the tests and compare to the SORT implementations of various Common Lisp systems.  There is plenty of non-academic work in a paper like that.
2018-06-22T12:35:45Z shka: sure
2018-06-22T12:36:02Z shka: do you want to get the results?
2018-06-22T12:36:14Z jkordani: beach: that sounds interesting to me too.  but how can it be known how much space is available on the stack?
2018-06-22T12:36:44Z beach: jkordani: I am pretty sure your Common Lisp implementation has a way of telling you.  I know SBCL does.
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2018-06-22T12:37:33Z jkordani: in hindsight I suppose that it is known/enforced by the os so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that there is a way for a program to discover the limit
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2018-06-22T12:38:11Z beach: jkordani: And in the case of SBCL, I believe the default stack size is fixed by SBCL itself.  It is per thread.
2018-06-22T12:38:56Z jkordani: hmm
2018-06-22T12:39:05Z schweers: beach: out of curiosity, how does one get the free stack space?
2018-06-22T12:39:09Z schweers: (on sbcl)
2018-06-22T12:39:39Z beach: Now you are asking me to remember that.  No way.  Let me see whether I can dig it up...
2018-06-22T12:40:20Z schweers: beach: I thought you knew it off the top of your head, don’t go to too much effort just to satisfy my curiosity please.
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2018-06-22T12:40:48Z beach: OK.  I'll see if it is the paper we wrote about processing lists in reverse order.  Hold on...
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2018-06-22T12:43:46Z beach: schweers: sb-vm:*conrol-stack-end* sb-vm:*control-stack-start* sb-kernel:control-stack-usage is what I see in our code.
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2018-06-22T12:43:55Z beach: control, not conrol.
2018-06-22T12:44:00Z schweers: cool, thanks!
2018-06-22T12:45:17Z beach: so you do (- sb-vm:*control-stack-end* sb-vm:*control-stack-start* (sb-kernel::control-stack-usage))
2018-06-22T12:45:56Z beach: We used it for this paper: http://metamodular.com/reverse-order.pdf
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2018-06-22T12:46:38Z schweers: oh, control-stack-usage is not external.  that explains why I couldn’t find it at first
2018-06-22T12:46:58Z beach: Yeah, there is some internal stuff there.  To be expected.
2018-06-22T12:47:26Z schweers: but yeah, cool :)
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2018-06-22T12:49:11Z beach: Time for a break.  I'll be back later.
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2018-06-22T14:28:25Z beach: loke: I have invented a synchronization protocol for the garbage collectors of SICL.  If you feel like reading it, here it is: http://metamodular.com/garbage-collection.pdf
2018-06-22T14:28:42Z beach: loke: I included the entire chapter, because it explains the different techniques as well.
2018-06-22T14:29:17Z beach: loke: I am not a synchronization expert.  There might be simplifications possible, using (say) condition variables rather than semaphores.
2018-06-22T14:30:02Z beach: loke: The chapter is not entirely complete.  I have yet to describe locking in the global collector as a result of promotion requests and as a result of using multiple threads for the global collector.
2018-06-22T14:30:50Z beach: Anyone else who would like to read it is of course welcome to do so.  I take questions and requests for improvements as usual.
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2018-06-22T14:31:52Z Bike: this isn't directly related, but how are conses recognized if they don't have a class pointer?
2018-06-22T14:32:06Z beach: tag bits
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2018-06-22T14:32:32Z Bike: oh, duh.
2018-06-22T14:32:40Z beach: Heh!
2018-06-22T14:34:58Z Bike: and racks don't move. the only time you'd need to resize one is for change-class, but you can just allocate a new rack instead and actually sorta have to, so there's no problem
2018-06-22T14:35:22Z beach: The racks move in the nursery but not in the global heap.
2018-06-22T14:35:34Z beach: Correct.
2018-06-22T14:35:58Z beach: And I want allocate a new one because I want to use CAS to install it.
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2018-06-22T14:36:10Z beach: That way, certain operations can go on in parallel.
2018-06-22T14:36:34Z beach: Like an array access and an adjust-array operation.
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2018-06-22T14:36:47Z beach: I don't know what Clasp does in this case.
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2018-06-22T14:37:28Z beach: Typical situation: thread A wants to set an element, thread B shrinks the array.
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2018-06-22T14:38:00Z beach: A checks the size, then gets blocked.  B shrinks the array.  A wakes up and sets an element outside the array.
2018-06-22T14:38:26Z flip214: what's the easiest way to get an (array (unsigned-byte 8) *) MSB-filled from a bigint? a loop with LDB, or is there a faster way?
2018-06-22T14:39:09Z Bike: probably a loop with ldb
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2018-06-22T14:40:46Z flip214: ah, IRONCLAD:INTEGER-TO-OCTETS sounds promising
2018-06-22T14:41:31Z beach: In SICL, the plan is that A checks the size which is stored in the rack and the rack does not change its size.  B shrinks the array by allocating a new rack.  It then uses the CAS operation to install the new rack.  A needs to access the rack again only after a call to an external function, or in an infinite loop.
2018-06-22T14:42:25Z beach: So does Clasp have a lock for every array access?  Or is it just not thread safe?  Or some other solution that I can't think of?
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2018-06-22T14:43:06Z Bike: I think that it's not thread safe in this area.
2018-06-22T14:43:13Z beach: Hmm.
2018-06-22T14:43:22Z beach: Any plans to make it thread safe?  If so, how?
2018-06-22T14:44:32Z beach: A lock for each array access seems very costly.  But maybe it isn't with SLE.
2018-06-22T14:44:39Z Bike: i don't think it's on the agenda now. other fires to put out and all.
2018-06-22T14:44:48Z beach: Sure, yeah.
2018-06-22T14:45:57Z beach: I should ask scymtym to look at this as well, since he knows about SBCL internals.
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2018-06-22T14:50:44Z jackdaniel: afaik Jose's idea about thread-safety was that programmer is responsible for locking access when appropriate (and since drmeister reimplemented same algorithms in C++ initially, that behavior is inherited)
2018-06-22T14:51:19Z beach: I see, yes.
2018-06-22T14:51:39Z beach: There is also the fact that "thread safety" means different things for different people.
2018-06-22T14:51:47Z beach: ... and in different situations.
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2018-06-22T14:52:13Z beach: What I want for SICL is that it won't crash with a segmentation fault or similar.
2018-06-22T14:52:33Z drmeister: I think we could add thread safety by making the type that points to the rack and the rack slots to atomic.
2018-06-22T14:52:42Z beach: But it can give the wrong answer in some situations unless the programmer take precautions.
2018-06-22T14:53:27Z drmeister: ... by switching the type that points ...
2018-06-22T14:53:38Z beach: ?
2018-06-22T14:54:13Z beach: Can you describe what to do for the use case I indicated?
2018-06-22T14:54:35Z Bike: we store the size separately from the data vector, so it would be more involved.
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2018-06-22T14:59:01Z drmeister: I can't answer at the moment - I'll need to think hard about what you proposed and what I'm thinking.
2018-06-22T14:59:09Z drmeister: I may be wrong.
2018-06-22T14:59:18Z beach: No rush.
2018-06-22T14:59:26Z beach: I am just interested in what others do.
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2018-06-22T15:50:44Z beach: Suppose I wanted to implement Clordane for SBCL, or rather, for SBCL code compiled with a Cleavir-based compiler, so that I can control precisely what that code does.  I translate to HIR, then back to a simpler Common Lisp that I compile with the native SBCL compiler.  But the resulting code is supposed to interrogate a table in the thread structure say before and after each form to evaluate.
2018-06-22T15:50:57Z pjb: loke: message passing was what was envisionned originally by Alan Kay.  Unfortunately, he named it object-oriented, and the first implementations used function calls, so all went awry.  The difference is that function calls are synchronous, while message passing is asynchronous: the sender doesn't wait for the recipient to process th message.  This is not necessarily related to multi-threading or multi-processing, and if you have
2018-06-22T15:50:57Z pjb: threads, a single object may be processing multiple messages in parallel, or not.
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2018-06-22T15:51:34Z beach: Now, SBCL represents threads with structure objects, so I can't change-class if I want to add more stuff to them.  Do I need to modify the source of SBCL to make this work.
2018-06-22T15:51:44Z pjb: loke: when objects are restricted to a single thread, they're called "monitors".  Then they're the focal point of synchronisation, since processing their messages  is mutually-exclusive.
2018-06-22T15:51:46Z beach: I mean, I could do that, I guess, but it's a bit scary.
2018-06-22T15:52:14Z pjb: beach: but it may be the easiest way to do it, if you depend on change-class.
2018-06-22T15:52:35Z beach: I can't do change-class on a structure object, right?
2018-06-22T15:52:35Z pjb: beach: wrapping your own object around things often lead to re-implementing a lot…
2018-06-22T15:52:43Z beach: Yeah.
2018-06-22T15:52:49Z pjb: Theorically not. Perhaps sbcl structure objects allow it?
2018-06-22T15:53:03Z beach: That's possible.  I'll make a small test.
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2018-06-22T15:55:26Z beach: Nah.
2018-06-22T15:56:21Z pjb: So patch.
2018-06-22T15:56:33Z beach: Yeah, shouldn't be too hard.
2018-06-22T15:56:50Z pjb: Let's benefit from freedom software and open source!
2018-06-22T15:56:56Z beach: Absolutely.
2018-06-22T15:57:12Z beach: I need to figure out exactly what I need first.
2018-06-22T15:58:03Z beach: For native SICL code, I imagined having several tables mapping values of the program counter to source locations, for things like stepping.
2018-06-22T15:58:22Z beach: I need to use something to replace program-counter values.
2018-06-22T15:58:34Z beach: Perhaps HIR instructions could play that role.
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2018-06-22T16:05:17Z beach: That might work.  Before and/or after evaluating an expression, the code consults a hash table in the thread object.  If the hash table contains TRUE, then the threads stops, waiting for the debugger to allow it to continue.
2018-06-22T16:05:43Z mfiano: beach: Are there any implementations of your fast generic dispatching paper?
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2018-06-22T16:05:52Z beach: mfiano: Yes, in Clasp.
2018-06-22T16:06:09Z beach: mfiano: Also an experimental implementation in SBCL.
2018-06-22T16:06:20Z mfiano: Ah is there more evidence than in the paper? :-)
2018-06-22T16:06:55Z beach: mfiano: It is inconclusive.  In SBCL it is sometimes faster and sometimes slower than the native technique.
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2018-06-22T16:07:11Z mfiano: I see. Thanks.
2018-06-22T16:07:12Z beach: mfiano: In Clasp, it is hard to tell because there are other performance problems.
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2018-06-22T16:07:28Z beach: I guess it must also indicate where it stopped (the HIR value) so that the debugger can consult a table to figure out the corresponding source location.
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2018-06-22T16:07:45Z beach: This doesn't sound terribly hard unless performance is a problem.
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2018-06-22T16:08:27Z beach: mfiano: For details in Clasp, you can ask drmeister or Bike.
2018-06-22T16:08:39Z Bike: mhm
2018-06-22T16:08:40Z beach: mfiano: For SBCL, scymtym is the one who did the implementation.
2018-06-22T16:09:29Z Bike: it's faster than what we had. the main issue with it is warmup time, which is exacerbated by unrelated factors. and sbcl has warmup time too. such is caching
2018-06-22T16:11:04Z beach: mfiano: The beauty of Common Lisp is that several techniques could coexist.  Some generic functions could use one technique and some others some other technique, so the best one can be chosen on an individual bases.  The same generic function can even use different techniques at different times, depending on the applicable methods.
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2018-06-22T16:12:04Z beach: One might for instance choose one technique for a simple slot reader, and a different technique for (say) PRINT-OBJECT.
2018-06-22T16:12:19Z mfiano: Interesting. The MOP is a beautiful thing.
2018-06-22T16:12:28Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-22T16:13:22Z mfiano: I am toying with Masataro Asai's implemebtation at the moment. No data yet :)
2018-06-22T16:13:31Z beach: I use that fact when I run SICL generic functions inside SBCL.  I use the fast generic dispatch technique to create the discriminating function, and SBCL uses its own technique of course.
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2018-06-22T16:13:52Z beach: mfiano: His implementation of what?
2018-06-22T16:14:09Z mfiano: inlinable GFs
2018-06-22T16:14:18Z beach: Ah, OK.  Nice.
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2018-06-22T16:19:47Z beach: What someone should do some day is to figure out how to recompile call sites when the callee changes, and doing so while still respecting the semantics of Common Lisp.  I am pretty convinced that just recompiling the calling function from scratch would violate the semantics.
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2018-06-22T16:21:14Z Bike: How?
2018-06-22T16:22:00Z beach: How would it violate the semantics?  Well, for one thing, if you start from source code, you will have violated the "minimal compilation" restriction, because some macros might have changed in the meantime.
2018-06-22T16:22:28Z beach: Starting from HIR might be better.
2018-06-22T16:23:07Z Bike: oh, makes sense
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2018-06-22T16:30:52Z beach: We could represent the discriminating function of the callee as HIR, inline it, and then do things like type inference on the result.
2018-06-22T16:31:39Z beach: I obviously haven't thought about the details.
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2018-06-22T16:40:28Z asarch: What's wrong?: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577729
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2018-06-22T16:47:19Z Xach: asarch: what are you trying to do?
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2018-06-22T16:47:42Z phoe: asarch: one second
2018-06-22T16:47:50Z phoe: is this *all* compilation output?
2018-06-22T16:48:04Z phoe: ...it seems to be
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2018-06-22T16:48:25Z phoe: "WARNING: No installation directory specified." seems to be the root cause
2018-06-22T16:48:32Z phoe: later it fails to find the file "foo.mem"
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2018-06-22T16:49:21Z phoe: asarch: unrelated question - any particular reason why clisp?
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2018-06-22T16:49:35Z Xach: Don't clog the question queue!
2018-06-22T16:50:14Z phoe: Your question is first on the queue anyway!
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2018-06-22T16:50:55Z Bike: i hope clisp compilation doesn't result in all those warmings normally. whoof.
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2018-06-22T16:51:57Z Xach: phoe: but clearly it is one that takes a lot of resources to process
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2018-06-22T16:52:05Z Xach: phoe: two questions could take hours
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2018-06-22T16:52:55Z shangul: phoe, oh hello!
2018-06-22T16:53:15Z shangul: pjb, and you
2018-06-22T16:53:27Z phoe: shangul: heyyy
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2018-06-22T16:58:13Z asarch: There is no official Debian package for clisp phoe
2018-06-22T16:58:59Z shangul: are you sure?
2018-06-22T16:59:21Z asarch: Yeah, I'm sure
2018-06-22T16:59:44Z asarch: There is no "foo.mem" at the compilation directory
2018-06-22T16:59:49Z Xach: Oh no :( my question got skipped
2018-06-22T17:00:07Z Xach: thanks a lot, phoe
2018-06-22T17:00:37Z shangul: asarch, however there is in Ubuntu packages
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2018-06-22T17:00:48Z phoe: Xach: ;_; sorry
2018-06-22T17:00:59Z asarch: What was your question Xach?
2018-06-22T17:01:11Z asarch: Yeah, Ubuntu does have it
2018-06-22T17:01:22Z asarch: Even Slackware has it in its base installation
2018-06-22T17:01:22Z Xach: asarch: what are you trying to do?
2018-06-22T17:03:00Z asarch: To have clisp in the stable version of Debian AMD64
2018-06-22T17:03:05Z asarch feels proud
2018-06-22T17:03:18Z Xach: asarch: what commands did you run to try to do that?
2018-06-22T17:04:32Z asarch: The latest release of SBCL went fine: http://paste.scsys.co.uk/577730
2018-06-22T17:05:14Z asarch: asarch@hell:~/Projects/clisp-2.49$ ./configure --cbc built-with-gcc > compilacion.log 2>&1
2018-06-22T17:08:07Z asarch: shka was right. I used an old release of SBCL to build the newest one
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2018-06-22T17:24:50Z akkad: is it possible to alias defn/def to defun?
2018-06-22T17:25:46Z phoe: akkad: sure it is
2018-06-22T17:25:58Z phoe: akkad: but don't show that code to other people who write Common Lisp
2018-06-22T17:26:02Z akkad has to stop thinking in scheme
2018-06-22T17:26:18Z akkad: sure, just make some shims to reduce my porting effortt
2018-06-22T17:26:32Z phoe: (setf (macro-function 'def) (macro-function 'defun))
2018-06-22T17:26:38Z phoe: but you actually want to write a different macro
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2018-06-22T17:26:53Z phoe: because (def foo ...) and (def (foo ...) ...) mean two different things
2018-06-22T17:26:56Z akkad: right. makes sense, especially one with a lambda that dtrt.
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2018-06-22T17:27:27Z phoe: also you're in Lisp-2 now so these two different forms of def start making little sense now
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2018-06-22T17:32:35Z Xach: \
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2018-06-22T17:59:20Z mangul: Xach, :\ you meant?
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2018-06-22T18:35:42Z makomo: is there a way to create a never-before-seen package just like you can do for symbols with GENSYM?
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2018-06-22T18:36:18Z makomo: i can do (make-package (gensym)) but the SYMBOL-NAME is used as the package's identifier right?
2018-06-22T18:36:58Z makomo: so any other symbol with the same name will return the same package when FIND-PACKAGE is used
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2018-06-22T18:45:09Z edgar-rft: makomo, try (progn (make-package 'foo) (make-package 'foo)) ans see what happens.
2018-06-22T18:45:26Z Xach: makomo: there is nothing directly comparable to gensym.
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2018-06-22T18:45:51Z Xach: All packages are registered by name, globally.
2018-06-22T18:48:06Z makomo: what i need is to READ some code, and i want to do so within a new fresh package
2018-06-22T18:49:01Z Inline: then import while reading ?
2018-06-22T18:49:03Z makomo: and i want a fresh package every time i READ to make sure that i get a new environment of sorts
2018-06-22T18:49:25Z makomo: i guess i could reserve a name for myself and then DELETE-PACKAGE when i'm done and ready to READ again
2018-06-22T18:49:42Z makomo: but i could have multiple "simulations" running, which would require multiple fresh packages at the same time
2018-06-22T18:49:52Z Inline: (defpackage (gensym my-packag-)....
2018-06-22T18:50:14Z makomo: won't that fail because defpackage is a macro?
2018-06-22T18:50:27Z MichaelRaskin: Package names are strings, not symbols
2018-06-22T18:50:32Z makomo: right :^(
2018-06-22T18:51:03Z makomo: i see this as the same problem of "well, just come up with a funny name that nobody else will think of"
2018-06-22T18:51:10Z makomo: how come it was handled for macros but not for gensyms?
2018-06-22T18:51:19Z makomo: s/of/as/
2018-06-22T18:51:27Z MichaelRaskin: I would generate a random name (as in (format nil "~36r" (random (expt 36 20))) ) add prefix, check for collisions, hope for the best
2018-06-22T18:51:33Z makomo: not for packages*, jesus...
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2018-06-22T18:51:58Z makomo: MichaelRaskin: yeah lol, pretty much the only way
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2018-06-22T18:52:58Z makomo: but i wonder why strings were chosen as package identifiers? would it really be weird if symbols named packages?
2018-06-22T18:53:05Z makomo: maybe you would have the problem of bootstrapping or something?
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2018-06-22T18:54:08Z MichaelRaskin: I think ABCL moved to using symbols for package names
2018-06-22T18:54:13Z MichaelRaskin: And it works well
2018-06-22T18:54:28Z makomo: i see, that's nice
2018-06-22T18:54:53Z makomo: also, neat way of generating a random string :D
2018-06-22T18:54:58Z MichaelRaskin: By the way, as make-package signals if there is a conflict, you can write a make-random-package function that is guaranteed not to collide with its own things
2018-06-22T18:55:13Z makomo: mhm, true
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2018-06-22T18:55:48Z dlowe: Isn't there a reader implementation with its own symbol objects?
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2018-06-22T18:56:09Z dlowe: That would be better than using the built-in reader and hacking it to do what you want.
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2018-06-22T18:56:24Z jdz: c
2018-06-22T18:56:37Z scymtym: makomo: another option would be https://github.com/robert-strandh/eclector which can be customized to not intern symbols
2018-06-22T18:56:42Z makomo: dlowe: i'm not really hacking it. all i'm doing is READ-ing and that's it
2018-06-22T18:56:49Z makomo: i guess something like eclector then?
2018-06-22T18:56:53Z makomo: scymtym: right! :D
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2018-06-22T18:57:41Z dlowe: makomo: random package names come pretty close to ugly hacks
2018-06-22T18:57:43Z MichaelRaskin: One day beach will release SICL with first-class global environments and there will be much rejoicing
2018-06-22T18:58:03Z makomo: MichaelRaskin: indeed
2018-06-22T18:58:45Z makomo: dlowe: ah, that's what you meant. i guess so
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2018-06-22T19:02:21Z asarch: Two questions: where can I learn more about ASDF and where about the debugger?
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2018-06-22T19:03:53Z sjl: asarch: ASDF has a manual.  It's worth sitting down and reading the whole thing at some point https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html
2018-06-22T19:04:23Z asarch: Thank you sjl
2018-06-22T19:04:29Z asarch: Thank you very much :-)
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2018-06-22T19:42:32Z didi`: So I'm reading CLtL2's section 22.1.1 What the Read Function Accepts, and it contains a description of the reader algorithm. It looks interesting.
2018-06-22T19:44:11Z didi`: Do implementations follow this algorithm?
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2018-06-22T19:45:23Z dlowe: Presumably, the algorithm followed is in the spec
2018-06-22T19:45:31Z didi`: Cool.
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2018-06-22T19:49:54Z butterthebuddha: Are vectors atoms?
2018-06-22T19:50:19Z didi`: butterthebuddha: Yeap.
2018-06-22T19:51:05Z didi`: I am trying to write a reader for JSON, using CLOS, but I stopped at writing various (defmethod read-number (stream (x (eql 0))) ...), (defmethod read-number (stream (x (eql 1))) ...), ... CL's algorithm might be a better one.
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2018-06-22T20:00:43Z dlowe: butterthebuddha: everything not a cons or NIL is an atom.
2018-06-22T20:00:53Z dlowe: butterthebuddha: it's really not that useful of a concept.
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2018-06-22T20:01:37Z butterthebuddha: Yeah I thought so; I am implementing an interpreter and was wondering if there was any functional difference between a vector and an "atom" that I wasn't aware of
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2018-06-22T20:02:16Z dlowe: butterthebuddha: atoms only exist conceptually as an opposition to a "list"
2018-06-22T20:02:29Z didi`: Well, it's a way of differentiating ... Dang, you, dlowe...
2018-06-22T20:04:44Z sjl: dlowe: NIL is an atom
2018-06-22T20:04:47Z sjl: clhs atom
2018-06-22T20:04:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_atom.htm
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2018-06-22T20:16:38Z aeth: atoms were useful... before Lisp added arrays, hash-tables, structs, CLOS objects, streams, ...
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2018-06-22T20:17:43Z MichaelRaskin: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/agnostic-lizard/blob/master/debugger-hooks.lisp — the core of core of portable debugger hooks support. Not as simple as I hoped, not as horrible as I feared (and forced me to add some more useful data in Agnostic Lizard)
2018-06-22T20:17:54Z aeth: It might still be a meaningful distinction in elaborate macros, but you'd generally be testing for lists and then handling the rest differently, not testing for atoms
2018-06-22T20:18:08Z MichaelRaskin: Zero clue how to add anything about file positions
2018-06-22T20:18:23Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: agnostic-lizard? I'm glad someone else uses my naming scheme
2018-06-22T20:18:41Z aeth: adjective-animal
2018-06-22T20:18:41Z MichaelRaskin: Ubuntu isn't enough for you?
2018-06-22T20:18:59Z aeth: well, they go for matching the starting letters, too
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2018-06-22T20:19:51Z MichaelRaskin: For some reason, such names feel good for my attempts at something small that traverses something
2018-06-22T20:20:13Z aeth: small?
2018-06-22T20:20:15Z aeth:  [2~[3~
2018-06-22T20:20:17Z aeth: oops
2018-06-22T20:20:32Z aeth: that's the problem with a terminal. press some keys and some line noise will come out
2018-06-22T20:21:06Z aeth: Anyway, I don't use the naming scheme for small things.
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2018-06-22T20:22:12Z MichaelRaskin: Well, not really really small
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2018-06-22T20:22:26Z dlowe: sjl: it's true. NIL is an atom.
2018-06-22T20:22:33Z dlowe: so useful.
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2018-06-22T20:22:54Z MichaelRaskin: When a minimal extension for adding hooks is over a hundred of lines, obviously the thing itself has to be larger
2018-06-22T20:23:52Z MichaelRaskin: I guess it helps that the choice is either that or «yet another portable code walker, but actually working this time»
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2018-06-22T20:24:26Z aeth: Lines aren't a good measure in Lisp. The problem is that by the time you get to 6k-8k lines, you never have to leave.
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2018-06-22T20:25:07Z MichaelRaskin: True, but I am too lazy to token-count
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2018-06-22T20:26:44Z sjl: I wish cloc would count docstrings as comments, not code
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2018-06-22T20:29:48Z MichaelRaskin: And I guess if my mess of throwing together «escape browser dump web to text editor» is ever worth a release, I keep the package name thoughtful-theridion (theridia is the taxon of cobweb spiders)
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2018-06-22T20:34:35Z dim: can I (open "..." :direction :probe :if-exists :rename) and expect the rename to happen?
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2018-06-22T20:40:31Z dim: it seems not, so I'm using with-open-file and a dummy instruction to avoid the warning about the variable being unused
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2018-06-22T20:53:11Z makomo: dim: you could use an ignore declaration instead of dummy operations
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2018-06-22T22:26:14Z stylewarning: On SBCL, I have a function F which allocates lots of memory, but doesn't maintain the references. (loop (f)) causes a heap exhaustion, while (loop (gc :full t) (f)) does not. Any hints on why this could be?
2018-06-22T22:29:02Z didi`: stylewarning: I usually fight SBCL's GC. If you discover something, please tell me.
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2018-06-22T22:31:52Z didi`: stylewarning: One thing that I observed is that it consumes memory before freeing memory.
2018-06-22T22:32:32Z didi`: I mean, during the freeing, it consumes more memory.
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2018-06-22T22:32:58Z pierpa: didi`: is your program standard CL or are you using sbcl specifics?
2018-06-22T22:33:13Z didi`: pierpa: Standard.
2018-06-22T22:33:23Z pierpa: then, me, I would report this as a bug.
2018-06-22T22:33:54Z didi`: pierpa: Thanks.
2018-06-22T22:34:03Z pierpa: yw ;)
2018-06-22T22:34:18Z stylewarning: I wonder if SBCL tries to do a full GC. It looks like all of my objects are in gen1 or 2, and SBCL is just ignoring those.
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2018-06-22T22:35:22Z pierpa: oops, I meant to ask stylewarning, not didi`!
2018-06-22T22:35:39Z didi`: I feel like it consumes approximately 2 times the allocated memory to free it.
2018-06-22T22:36:09Z didi`: pierpa: oic
2018-06-22T22:40:24Z dim: makomo: the dummy declaration didn't do the trick
2018-06-22T22:40:54Z dim: sorry, the (declare (ignore ...)) did raise another warning
2018-06-22T22:41:38Z dim: Unknown or invalid declaration (IGNORE (DATA))
2018-06-22T22:42:26Z dim: ahah, that's just the syntax being wrong, oops
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2018-06-22T22:44:22Z stylewarning: pierpa: it's standard.
2018-06-22T22:44:38Z pierpa: ok
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2018-06-22T23:11:38Z stylewarning: pierpa: didi`: Here's a minimal test case: http://codepad.org/3rYlei16
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2018-06-22T23:13:14Z didi`: stylewarning: Please keep me inform. :-)
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2018-06-22T23:19:32Z pierpa: it could be an unfortunate effect of sbcl's gc conservativeness
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2018-06-22T23:20:38Z pierpa: OTOH, it could also be something else, so I'd ask the sbcl people for an opinion
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2018-06-22T23:25:45Z pierpa: the hash tables that the function F creates are pretty big, so even a small percentage of them being kept because of false positives could explain the phenomenon.
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2018-06-22T23:26:34Z stylewarning: pierpa: It would have to be holding on to a few of the large tables from a previous call to F
2018-06-22T23:26:46Z pierpa: this theory agrees with the forst two of your starred points, while I don't understand the third one
2018-06-22T23:26:51Z pierpa: *first
2018-06-22T23:27:00Z Bike: if it was conservatism, how would calling gc manually fix it? it's not any less conservative just because it's forced
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2018-06-22T23:27:34Z pierpa: perhaps full gc is less conservative?
2018-06-22T23:27:45Z pierpa: I don't know sbcl at all
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2018-06-22T23:28:27Z stylewarning: I'm trying to figure out in the SBCL source where GC gets called upon a failed allocation
2018-06-22T23:29:02Z Bike: in the runtime, i would guess
2018-06-22T23:29:17Z stylewarning: I've been poking around there.
2018-06-22T23:30:20Z stylewarning: Adding a CLRHASH upon return seems to fix it too.
2018-06-22T23:30:23Z pjb: sbcl has generational GC.
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2018-06-22T23:30:51Z pjb: But in anycase, if the memory is full, GC should be called and dead memory freed.
2018-06-22T23:31:27Z Bike: well, that's the mystery.
2018-06-22T23:32:05Z pjb: Perhaps there's a bug that prevents automatic GC to collect older generations?
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2018-06-22T23:57:23Z stylewarning: Looks like all the interesting stuff about GC triggering on allocation starts here: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/runtime/gencgc.c#L3739
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2018-06-23T00:04:20Z Bike: oh, i thought maybe it was through a fault handler or something
2018-06-23T00:04:35Z Bike: bytes-consed-between-gcs is customizable, i think. maybe you can mess with that?
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2018-06-23T00:05:54Z didi`: In my case, usually I have some percentage of the heap allocated, say 80%, then the GC is triggered and the heap is exhausted.
2018-06-23T00:08:31Z stylewarning: didi`: That variable seems like the wrong one to tune for a bug like this, no? IIUC, the default is 5% of the heap size, and that means when 5% of the heap is used, a GC of some sort will be attempted.
2018-06-23T00:10:16Z didi`: stylewarning: Oh, I don't know how to fix it. My workaround has been trying to use less and less programs during my work and aggressively cut my memory usage inside my program.
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2018-06-23T00:10:48Z stylewarning: I see
2018-06-23T00:11:18Z didi`: So by running fewer programs, I can dedicate more RAM to SBCL's heap.
2018-06-23T00:14:29Z didi`: stylewarning: Another "fix" I employ is calling the GC from time to time inside the REPL.
2018-06-23T00:14:57Z stylewarning: didi`: this bug is unfortunately being trigged in the depths of a complicated compiler pass
2018-06-23T00:15:05Z didi`: stylewarning: Crap.
2018-06-23T00:16:13Z mega_beginner: Page it out to an ssd, but then performance will be down horribly
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2018-06-23T00:16:31Z mega_beginner: < Not a serious suggestion
2018-06-23T00:16:39Z didi`: mega_beginner: Desperate times...
2018-06-23T00:16:43Z stylewarning: I just want the garbage collector to collect garbage. :) It only has one job.
2018-06-23T00:16:51Z didi`: Tho I only have a rusty disc.
2018-06-23T00:17:09Z didi`: One paging starts, game over.
2018-06-23T00:17:17Z didi`: s/One/Once
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2018-06-23T00:39:11Z stylewarning: simplified the test case more: http://codepad.org/LtytNnbG
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2018-06-23T00:42:29Z stylewarning: when I replace the vector with a list that is PUSH'd on to, the bug disappears
2018-06-23T00:42:42Z stylewarning: makes me think there's something awry with collecting large objects, which I know are allocated specially
2018-06-23T00:44:42Z pierpa: any change if you use (make-array 32 :initial-element 42) ?
2018-06-23T00:45:51Z pierpa: and also give an :initial-element to the other make-array
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2018-06-23T00:46:30Z pierpa: if this makes a difference then my suspects would go to conservativeness
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2018-06-23T00:49:29Z pierpa: as, in the previous case you needed a RANDOM integer to trigger it. In this case, uninitialized arrays. So, vectors containing random fixnums would seem to play a part in this.
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2018-06-23T00:50:55Z stylewarning: pierpa: no difference
2018-06-23T00:51:09Z pierpa: you destroyed my theory!
2018-06-23T00:51:16Z stylewarning: pierpa: the random integer bit was because i needed different objects for EQUALP
2018-06-23T00:51:37Z stylewarning: but I changed that to EQ so all objects, even with the same contents, are basically different
2018-06-23T00:51:44Z pierpa: k
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2018-06-23T00:59:12Z aeth: sounds interesting
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2018-06-23T01:00:52Z aeth: Does GC only trigger on allocation or manually calling?
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2018-06-23T01:03:30Z stylewarning: aeth: I think it only triggers on those two events
2018-06-23T01:03:34Z aeth: Is there a way to find out exactly when the GC runs?
2018-06-23T01:04:22Z stylewarning: Yes, you can log it to a file.
2018-06-23T01:04:36Z aeth: I'm guessing that other threads (e.g. SLIME+Swank?) would trigger GC even in a non-allocating workload, but running it in a separate process entirely and seeing if the GC is triggered could be yet another test for consing.
2018-06-23T01:04:45Z aeth: Assuming you can isolate the rest of the program.
2018-06-23T01:05:26Z aeth: Doesn't help with your problem (unless I wasn't reading it carefully), but it would be an interesting test to run on some things
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2018-06-23T01:08:14Z stylewarning: aeth: good call out. Unfortunately it didn't change anything
2018-06-23T01:12:10Z aeth: stylewarning: Does SBCL have built in file logging or is it done as part of the *after-gc-hooks* that's mentioned in the manual?
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2018-06-23T01:13:22Z aeth: oh I see, there's another section
2018-06-23T01:13:38Z Xach: clsql-mysql does not like the mariadb version string
2018-06-23T01:13:51Z aeth: (gc-logfile, in case anyone is wondering)
2018-06-23T01:13:57Z Xach: debian 9 does not have libpng12.so
2018-06-23T01:14:12Z Xach: so many things to fix to push out a new quicklisp dist!
2018-06-23T01:14:35Z stylewarning: Xach: fix the SBCL garbage collector too
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2018-06-23T01:15:14Z Xach: the key there is to catch doug's attention
2018-06-23T01:15:22Z Xach: or stas's?
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2018-06-23T04:54:58Z mfiano: Hello!
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2018-06-23T04:59:58Z mfiano: I have a stupid question perhaps, but I'm toying with compiler macros for the first time in all my years of Lisp use. Anyway, is there anyway to prevent the original function from being called in the REPL? It seems to work in a compiled file, but obviously not in the REPL.
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2018-06-23T06:07:35Z jackdaniel: mfiano: you have to put it in other function and then call it
2018-06-23T06:07:42Z jackdaniel: say FOO has a compiler macro involved
2018-06-23T06:08:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-23T06:08:18Z jackdaniel: ((lambda () (foo 2))) ; ←
2018-06-23T06:08:25Z jackdaniel: hey beach
2018-06-23T06:10:24Z jackdaniel: mfiano: or, if your implementation doesn't compie repl expressions by itself, then: (funcall (compile nil '(lambda () (foo 2))))
2018-06-23T06:10:53Z mfiano: jackdaniel: thank you
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2018-06-23T07:53:27Z MichaelRaskin: beach: I guess the core I have can be trivially wrapped to suppotr file-agnostic code debugger; not sure what is a good way to add location support, maybe a reader that saves a hashtable of «Form object -> storage location»
2018-06-23T07:53:57Z beach: We have a reader that keeps source information.  It is called Eclector.
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2018-06-23T07:54:08Z MichaelRaskin: (I have only tested it to implement a _tracer_, of course)
2018-06-23T07:54:28Z shangul: Error: there is not such function: I
2018-06-23T07:54:56Z MichaelRaskin: I thought Eclector returns a special code object?
2018-06-23T07:55:11Z MichaelRaskin: I.e. not something I can feed directly to macroexpand.
2018-06-23T07:55:45Z MichaelRaskin: But yes, and adapter to Eclector sounds like a good idea.
2018-06-23T07:55:47Z beach: It can return a concrete syntax tree, but one of the protocol functions on that returns the underlying expression.
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2018-06-23T08:15:18Z flip214: beach: mail incoming - in case you don't read the u-b.fr mails regularly. Have a nice weekend!!
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2018-06-23T08:21:03Z beach: Saw it.  Thanks.
2018-06-23T08:23:24Z MichaelRaskin: beach: I guess I should declare that recovery-after-macroexpand in eclector should work well enough with what I do not to think about it right now
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2018-06-23T08:29:15Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I am afraid I don't understand what your plan is in sufficient detail to understand things like that.
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2018-06-23T08:31:37Z MichaelRaskin: Well, as I convinced my SBCL instance that this plan works, I can show the same arguments to you. https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/agnostic-lizard/blob/master/debugger-hooks.lisp
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2018-06-23T08:33:13Z MichaelRaskin: The idea is: I have written a wrapper macro that checks a global variable before and after every form to maybe call some operation
2018-06-23T08:35:23Z MichaelRaskin: Right now to skip all the debug code in the function it just branches on the debugger-active variable in the beginning of every function; maybe the compiler is more thread-safe and won't optimise out the checks, in which case I need to improve that place a bit more.
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2018-06-23T08:36:16Z MichaelRaskin: I want to give every thread a thread-local binding for the relevant global variables, and put callbacks for editing thread-local copies into a global hashtable.
2018-06-23T08:36:59Z MichaelRaskin: When debugger is activated, it sets the callback to do something, for example to talk with the debugger thread (or debugger process) and ask it if it is OK to continue
2018-06-23T08:40:01Z beach: I think I understand.
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2018-06-23T08:51:08Z MichaelRaskin: I hope eclector will not be unhappy about my wrapper trick with character pushback.
2018-06-23T08:52:12Z beach: What is your wrapper trick with character pushback?
2018-06-23T08:53:06Z MichaelRaskin: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/mraskin/agnostic-lizard/blob/master/wrapping-reader.lisp
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2018-06-23T08:53:48Z MichaelRaskin: I set a reader-macro on #\( that unreads that #\( reads with the previous readtable, then wraps the form in a macro
2018-06-23T08:54:11Z beach: I see.
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2018-06-23T08:57:02Z beach: Since you are calling READ, Eclector won't give you a CST.  Just an expression.
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2018-06-23T08:57:50Z beach: Why do you put newlines after LET*?
2018-06-23T08:58:19Z beach: And why are the bindings indented the same as the body?
2018-06-23T08:59:32Z MichaelRaskin: Well, the bindings block is indented the same as the body, the bindings are one character to the right.
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2018-06-23T09:00:06Z MichaelRaskin: Frankly, I would still prefer Pascal-style formatting in every language…
2018-06-23T09:00:08Z beach: Why is the list of bindings indented the same as the body?
2018-06-23T09:00:18Z beach: It shouldn't be.
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2018-06-23T09:01:22Z MichaelRaskin: Yeah, I know, in TRAG code I write for Irène I do start the bindings block on the same line as let*
2018-06-23T09:04:17Z MichaelRaskin: I don't like these deep indents, though
2018-06-23T09:05:28Z beach: Well, it's not about personal preference.  It is about conventions that exist for better communication between people.  But, sure, as long as you keep your code to yourself, you can do what you want.
2018-06-23T09:06:06Z beach: But since you showed it to me, I had to tell you how distracting that style is to someone who is used to the Common Lisp conventions.
2018-06-23T09:08:29Z MichaelRaskin: Can I use something from SICL as external-process autoformat tool?
2018-06-23T09:09:22Z beach: You can use anything from SICL you like.  But I don't know what an external-process autoformat tool is.
2018-06-23T09:10:19Z MichaelRaskin: Something that I can feed a file and get the newlines removed according to the conventions.
2018-06-23T09:11:09Z beach: Hmm, no I don't know of any tool like that.  It would be a good thing to have though.
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2018-06-23T09:14:14Z MichaelRaskin: Does Eclector preserve comments in CSTs? And specific reader macro use?
2018-06-23T09:15:37Z beach: In CST, it doesn't preserve comments, but it has hooks for doing that, and I do it in Second Climacs, though Second Climacs is still not using Eclector.  I am gathering up the courage go switch.
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2018-06-23T09:16:38Z MichaelRaskin: Can I start Second Climacs completely headless and ask it to reformat a file?
2018-06-23T09:16:56Z beach: I am afraid not.   It is not at that point yet.
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2018-06-23T09:19:59Z LdBeth: Hack on the pretty printer?
2018-06-23T09:20:33Z MichaelRaskin: Pretty printer is not enough, I want to keep reader macros and comments
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2018-06-23T09:21:46Z beach: Such a tool would be great also for the purpose of education.  People could submit their code to it and have it comment on the indentation and spacing style.
2018-06-23T09:22:07Z beach: I guess I should try to isolate that code in Second Climacs so that it could be used also as a separate tool.
2018-06-23T09:23:15Z MichaelRaskin: Can I just instantiate something like SC buffer and apply the reformatting command?
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2018-06-23T09:23:59Z beach: I haven't fully implemented the indentation stuff yet, so no, not yet.
2018-06-23T09:24:06Z MichaelRaskin: Ah.
2018-06-23T09:25:00Z LdBeth: MichaelRaskin: if you specify corespondent print method for reader macros, it would work
2018-06-23T09:25:30Z MichaelRaskin: LdBeth: what I would feed the pretty printer so that the comments are even in the data?
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2018-06-23T09:28:56Z LdBeth: I have some primitive ideas, first hack the reader to treat comments as docstrings attached to cons cells
2018-06-23T09:30:39Z LdBeth: There many potential case,
2018-06-23T09:30:40Z LdBeth: ;; this is a comment attaches to (foo ..)
2018-06-23T09:30:40Z LdBeth: (foo 1 2)
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2018-06-23T09:32:47Z LdBeth: (bar 1) ; this comments is attached to (bar 1)
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2018-06-23T09:36:43Z LdBeth: clhs cond
2018-06-23T09:36:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
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2018-06-23T09:45:57Z beach: LdBeth: In Second Climacs, I preserve comments and other material for which a reader macro return no values.  Eclector can do that as well and I will replace the modified reader in Second Climacs with Eclector soon.  You can't arbitrarily insert comments into code, because you would then violate the syntax of many special forms.
2018-06-23T09:46:35Z beach: LdBeth: Take for instance (let #| comment |# ((var val)) body).
2018-06-23T09:46:57Z beach: If the comment turns into a CONS cell, then it will be parsed as if it were the list of bindings.
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2018-06-23T09:48:05Z MichaelRaskin: I think he meant that (let …) is now a cons cell with a comment attached
2018-06-23T09:48:41Z beach: I don't see how such a scheme could work in all situations.
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2018-06-23T09:49:05Z MichaelRaskin: I don't know either
2018-06-23T09:49:34Z MichaelRaskin: There are some free-standing commentaries from time to time
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2018-06-23T09:50:41Z beach: flip214: You can omit the nursery collection, but you must do something essentially equivalent, because you need to inform the global collector what objects are live.  Otherwise, you have to assume that all object in the global heap that were live after the previous collection are still live, and that would kind of defeat the purpose of garbage collection in the first place.
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2018-06-23T09:52:09Z beach: flip214: And I really don't see why you would want to skip the nursery collection.
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2018-06-23T09:53:18Z fm4d: Hi, I am slightly confounded by this behaviour: (funcall #'defparameter (read-from-string "test") 123)
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2018-06-23T09:53:33Z fm4d: It seems like funcall does not work with macros
2018-06-23T09:53:37Z beach: Correct.
2018-06-23T09:53:41Z beach: Macros are not functions.
2018-06-23T09:53:53Z fm4d: Is there some alternative?
2018-06-23T09:53:57Z beach: You can funcall the macro function, but you need to be aware of its signature.
2018-06-23T09:54:40Z fm4d: Basically I need to call a macro with value that is a result of evaluation
2018-06-23T09:54:50Z fm4d: defparameter with result of (read-from-string ...)
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2018-06-23T09:55:48Z fm4d: So I should use macroexpand?
2018-06-23T09:56:17Z beach: You might as well use EVAL in situations like that.
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2018-06-23T09:58:57Z fm4d: Could you provide me with an example please?
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2018-06-23T09:59:57Z beach: (eval `(defparameter ,(read-from-string "hello") 234))
2018-06-23T10:00:17Z fm4d: oh, okay
2018-06-23T10:00:19Z fm4d: Thanks
2018-06-23T10:00:23Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-23T10:00:56Z pjb: but instead, you should use a function to define a global dynamic variable at run time.
2018-06-23T10:00:59Z pjb: and go home and rethink seriously your life.
2018-06-23T10:01:07Z jackdaniel: another way around this is (defparameter #.(read-from-string "hello") 234)
2018-06-23T10:01:15Z pjb: I mean, why do you want to define global dynamic variables at run time? This makes no sense, since your program,being already compiled, cannot make use of it!
2018-06-23T10:01:43Z fm4d: Well, I want to load configuration for entire program from text file
2018-06-23T10:01:54Z pjb: Yes, what jackdaniel does would work at compilation-time, so it'd be ok. A better way to do it would be to write a macro expanding to that defparameter form.
2018-06-23T10:02:06Z pjb: fm4d: then you don't want to do such a thing.
2018-06-23T10:02:20Z fm4d: What do you recommend instead?
2018-06-23T10:02:54Z pjb: I mean, just store the configuration in some object (structure or CLOS instance) and bind it to a variable known to your program, such as (defvar *configuration* (make-default-configuration))
2018-06-23T10:03:09Z pjb: (defun load-configuration () (setf *configuration* (load-configuration-file)))
2018-06-23T10:04:14Z pjb: fm4d: and think about it: it's much better to keep the configuration in objects, since then you can pass it around as a single reference, instead of having a ton of global variables.  It allows you to run easily with different configurations, either at the same time in different threads, or sequentially.
2018-06-23T10:05:42Z fm4d: Sure, to be honest I just wanted to practice some operations with filesystem etc. and this seemed like a reasonable thing to do.
2018-06-23T10:06:08Z pjb: fm4d: now, since you use lisp, there's another way to load configurations.
2018-06-23T10:06:13Z fm4d: :]
2018-06-23T10:06:17Z pjb: fm4d: (load "configuration.lisp")
2018-06-23T10:06:25Z LdBeth: beach: Simply treat #|form|# as normal atom, which is what the text editor normally do. This reader would not be used for eval
2018-06-23T10:06:41Z pjb: You only have to document a "configuration language" for the user to use in his lisp configuration source.
2018-06-23T10:07:03Z fm4d: pjb actually after fierce fight I managed to make asdf work, so no more load :D
2018-06-23T10:07:05Z pjb: fm4d: (let ((*package* (load-time-value (find-package "CONFIGURATION-LANGUAGE")))) (load "configuration.lisp"))
2018-06-23T10:07:39Z pjb: This let the user use CL and algorithms to define his configurations. It can be handy for sophisticated users.  Like emacs users with ~/.emacs
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2018-06-23T10:08:09Z fm4d: Hm
2018-06-23T10:09:13Z LdBeth: beach: although it would be tough if someone wants complex ASCII art in comments
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2018-06-23T10:10:29Z pjb: fm4d: (defun load-configuration () (let ((*package* (load-time-value (find-package "CONFIGURATION-LANGUAGE")))) (load "configuration.lisp"))) you don't do the load while compiling, this has nothing to do with asdf.  This is loading the user's configuration file.
2018-06-23T10:11:03Z pjb: Actually you would look it up in (user-homedir-pathname)  or one of the XDG config directories.
2018-06-23T10:13:31Z fm4d: Well, I've though that I would make the config loading a part of asdf so asdf:load-system also loads the configurations
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2018-06-23T10:13:46Z fm4d: And drops me right into a working environment
2018-06-23T10:13:51Z fm4d: Is that wrong? :X
2018-06-23T10:14:43Z fm4d: Its more of a local configuration for a not very large app
2018-06-23T10:15:10Z fm4d: So what I really want is to do (asdf:load-system ...) (in-package ...) and be ready to go
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2018-06-23T10:16:09Z LdBeth: Usually ASDF is not available at runtime
2018-06-23T10:16:43Z pjb: fm4d: https://lpaste.net/5991094295447207936
2018-06-23T10:16:56Z pjb: fm4d: asdf is compilation-time.
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2018-06-23T10:18:35Z fm4d: I have to return to the books, I didn't really get into the compilation aspect of common lisp yet
2018-06-23T10:18:48Z fm4d: I've came from scheme
2018-06-23T10:19:06Z pjb: It's the same.
2018-06-23T10:19:18Z pjb: There's also the distinction between compilation-time and run-time.
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2018-06-23T10:19:38Z LdBeth: ASDF is like Unix’s make
2018-06-23T10:20:19Z LdBeth: Usually people wouldn’t depend on make to load configs, right
2018-06-23T10:20:22Z fm4d: Yes, but I have always considered only the runtime aspect I guess, books like SICP or Little Schemer don't delve into implementation details
2018-06-23T10:20:28Z pjb: Imagine how starnge it would be to execv("make"…) to load a configuration file!
2018-06-23T10:20:46Z fm4d: Okay, makes sense :D
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2018-06-23T10:22:58Z fm4d: And my workflow with asdf during development is ok, at least? Using asdf:load-system to correctly load dependencies and all files into one package and then in-package?
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2018-06-23T10:24:10Z pjb: If you will.  But nowdays, I just use ql:quickload to load everything. So if it happens that a dependency is not installed, quicklisp will download and install it automatically.
2018-06-23T10:25:55Z fm4d: And how do you deal with packages?
2018-06-23T10:26:02Z MichaelRaskin: beach: by the way, is there a good way to add an entry for the readtable in a way that uses «default read behaviour» for some parts, and would use Eclector if called by Eclector?
2018-06-23T10:26:13Z pjb: fm4d: packages are unrelated to systems.
2018-06-23T10:26:17Z fm4d: I mean, I have the defpackage in package.lisp which is loaded first by asdf in serial manner.
2018-06-23T10:26:28Z pjb: good for you.
2018-06-23T10:26:29Z fm4d: So I can just include (in-package ...) in every file
2018-06-23T10:26:32Z pjb: quicklisp uses asdf.
2018-06-23T10:27:06Z fm4d: Well, Ill get to that.. sometimes.. later..
2018-06-23T10:27:16Z fm4d: *sometime
2018-06-23T10:27:23Z pjb: I avoid :serial in asdf, so that only a minimum set of file need to be recompiled and reloaded when I edit one.
2018-06-23T10:27:47Z LdBeth: MichaelRaskin: there’s a macro WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX
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2018-06-23T10:28:43Z MichaelRaskin: It is in a different direction
2018-06-23T10:28:59Z MichaelRaskin: I already have a reference to the read-table I want to use
2018-06-23T10:29:24Z MichaelRaskin: But if I use read, Eclector will not save position information for the form I read
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2018-06-23T10:34:54Z LdBeth: MichaelRaskin: you can redefine readtable inside the reader function
2018-06-23T10:36:28Z MichaelRaskin: That I know
2018-06-23T10:36:33Z MichaelRaskin: That I do
2018-06-23T10:36:46Z MichaelRaskin: I have working code for the normal reader case
2018-06-23T10:37:17Z MichaelRaskin: The question is if there is a cheap way to support non-default reader
2018-06-23T10:37:24Z LdBeth: You mean pass the entire form to eclector?
2018-06-23T10:38:16Z MichaelRaskin: When I call read with another readtable, can I easily call eclector if I was called by eclector
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2018-06-23T10:43:41Z pjb: MichaelRaskin: in lisp it's always cheap to call another operator.
2018-06-23T10:43:58Z pjb: Instead of calling (cl:read stream), call (eclector:read stream); cannot be cheapest.
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2018-06-23T10:45:05Z MichaelRaskin: pjb: it is _not_ cheap
2018-06-23T10:45:19Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, I don't want to have a hard dependency on eclector
2018-06-23T10:45:27Z pjb: you can make it cheaper: (:shadowing-import-from :eclector :read)
2018-06-23T10:45:40Z MichaelRaskin: And my question was not how to cal eclector, but how to call it only when already called by eclector
2018-06-23T10:45:41Z pjb: You already have a hard dependency on CL.
2018-06-23T10:46:19Z MichaelRaskin: pjb: I don't even need to import it, I can funcall the (find-symbol …) if I really want to, I know
2018-06-23T10:46:26Z pjb: Well, you have to define all the reader macros with the eclector package instead of the cl package, I assume.
2018-06-23T10:46:36Z fm4d: Opinions on relevancy of Lisp In Small Pieces for CL internals?
2018-06-23T10:46:55Z pjb: fm4d: to closely related.
2018-06-23T10:46:59Z pjb: s/to/not/
2018-06-23T10:47:15Z pjb: fm4d: LiSP implement scheme, not CL.
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2018-06-23T10:47:41Z fm4d: Yes, but the techniques and approaches should be at least similar, aren't they?
2018-06-23T10:47:49Z pjb: fm4d: however, the implementation techniques taught in LiSP can of course be used in CL.  It's just a little more comple in CL, (the CL environments are more complex).
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2018-06-23T10:47:54Z pjb: Definitely.
2018-06-23T10:47:56Z fm4d: I mean, for udnerstanding the general concepts etc.
2018-06-23T10:48:00Z pjb: Yep.
2018-06-23T10:48:03Z fm4d: Ok, thx.
2018-06-23T10:48:34Z pjb: And you can read the sources of SICL or some other CL implementation while reading LiSP, to see how it's done for CL.
2018-06-23T10:49:39Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I don't know.  You would have to ask scymtym.
2018-06-23T10:50:17Z fm4d: Hm. Its quite hard to find a line between actually getting hands-on experience with CL without complete knowledge and just reading books like LiSP, PAIP, Let over Lambda without much experience in CL.
2018-06-23T10:51:47Z beach: Are you saying the books are too hard to understand?
2018-06-23T10:52:08Z beach: fm4d: I probably didn't understand what you were trying to say.
2018-06-23T10:53:50Z fm4d: Its not that they are too hard (they are hard, but in the way that you simply have to put a lot fo time and concentration into them), but about finding a good line between reading books without actually writing much code (memory fades fast for things you dont put into action) and writing code without having all the knowledge from the books.
2018-06-23T10:53:55Z random-nick: I think he meant to say that it is hard to know how much of CL you need to know in order to use it
2018-06-23T10:54:08Z fm4d: Yep
2018-06-23T10:54:21Z beach: I see.
2018-06-23T10:54:54Z beach: fm4d: I think it is with Common Lisp as with everything else.  You start off by doing simple things, and over time, you learn more conventions, more tricks, etc.
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2018-06-23T10:54:59Z LdBeth: You can use functional paradigm in CL if you like, that’s not a problem
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2018-06-23T10:57:58Z fm4d: Yeah, but it really feels like this is much more prominent in CL (comparing with the standard languages used in the industry)
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2018-06-23T10:58:25Z beach: fm4d: I think that's normal.  Common Lisp has more features than most languages.
2018-06-23T10:58:43Z fm4d: Thanks to both scarcity of resources and the.. the way CL is alien to everything else and many features and tools are more elaborate and complicated.
2018-06-23T10:59:10Z fm4d: Not that I consider it 'wrong', not at all, it just makes things little harder to get into.
2018-06-23T10:59:49Z beach: fm4d: Sure.  But once you do, it is very gratifying.
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2018-06-23T11:02:56Z makomo: fm4d: i'm not so sure. C++ feels a lot similar to me in that regard
2018-06-23T11:03:33Z makomo: s/a lot/very/
2018-06-23T11:04:00Z fm4d: Maybe its about the order of exposure. I was exposed to C++ when I was about.. 13 or so and then all the stuff like Java, Python, C# etc.
2018-06-23T11:04:05Z pjb: fm4d: in general, learning programming requires writing and reading a lot of programs.  You have to do both: read books, write programs, read programs and loop!
2018-06-23T11:04:12Z makomo: fm4d: same :-)
2018-06-23T11:04:17Z fm4d: And all these languages and envrionments kind of build on the same principles
2018-06-23T11:04:20Z makomo: i learned C++ as my first language pretty much
2018-06-23T11:04:36Z makomo: but learning C++ in detail has the same problems that you described imo
2018-06-23T11:04:38Z pjb: and don't be in a hurry, it takes 10 years to start being proficient in anything.
2018-06-23T11:04:41Z fm4d: And then you come across something totally alien like lisp and not only the language is alien but everything else.
2018-06-23T11:04:43Z makomo: there's *tons* of stuff to learn
2018-06-23T11:04:58Z beach: Forcing someone to use C++ that early in life is extremely cruel.
2018-06-23T11:05:04Z makomo: haha
2018-06-23T11:05:09Z makomo: well i wasn't really forced, it was my own decision
2018-06-23T11:05:15Z makomo: and a decision i'm grateful to myself for
2018-06-23T11:05:19Z beach: Oh!
2018-06-23T11:05:25Z fm4d: :D
2018-06-23T11:05:36Z makomo: i know that C++ is an ugly and warty language, but learning it has a lot of benefits
2018-06-23T11:05:43Z fm4d: I literally have no idea why I bought C++ in 21 days as a teenager ~13 years ago.
2018-06-23T11:05:45Z pjb: fm4d: and console yourself, that's nothing compared to the 4,500+ classes and 350,000+ methods of Android, and similar in iOS or any other framework.
2018-06-23T11:05:51Z fm4d: Such mental torture in such young age.
2018-06-23T11:05:55Z pjb: fm4d: the CL package exports only 678 symbols.
2018-06-23T11:06:20Z LdBeth: If I’m 13, I would definitely not choose CL either
2018-06-23T11:06:36Z pjb: scheme is nice for youngsters.
2018-06-23T11:06:45Z makomo: it's very likely that someone who's 13 has never even heard of lisp
2018-06-23T11:07:04Z makomo: you have to be in the right environment to find it at such a young age
2018-06-23T11:07:10Z pjb: makomo: I heard of lisp when I was 13. And that was in 1977!!!
2018-06-23T11:07:19Z makomo: probably because it was 1977
2018-06-23T11:07:20Z pjb: Unfortunately, it was out of reach…
2018-06-23T11:07:21Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-23T11:07:43Z beach: fm4d: I agree with pjb.  You need to read code, write code, read books, expose your code to others, follow advice, and the loop.
2018-06-23T11:08:15Z makomo: pretty much, there aren't any magical tricks to it
2018-06-23T11:08:15Z pjb: Nowadays, it's easy to read programs, there are a lot of them available on github, etc.
2018-06-23T11:08:21Z fm4d: pjb I cant really comment on android, but for example Python, which I spent some years working in professionally, is really large, sometimes not intuitive, complicated etc., but the difference is that you can have literally 80 IQ and still find all your answers online.
2018-06-23T11:08:54Z pjb: you will also find answers for CL.  news:comp.lang.lisp irc://irc.freenode.org/#lisp http://cliki.net etc.
2018-06-23T11:09:00Z fm4d: Its like.. you don't rely on your own understanding but on the feeling that 'it is somewhere on the net'
2018-06-23T11:09:16Z makomo: also, all of the "popular" books on lisp that you'll find are really good
2018-06-23T11:09:23Z fm4d: Agreed, github is a godsend in this regard.
2018-06-23T11:09:30Z makomo: LoL, PAIP, CLOS, AMOP, On Lisp, ANSI Common Lisp, LiSP, etc.
2018-06-23T11:09:38Z makomo: all of them are very good
2018-06-23T11:09:46Z fm4d: Thats a funny thing about lisp. You can literally put all the good books on one shelf.
2018-06-23T11:10:02Z beach: fm4d: You can find answers here.
2018-06-23T11:10:15Z makomo: i haven't seen a "Lisp for dummies" or "Lisp in X days" yet
2018-06-23T11:10:17Z makomo: must be a good sign
2018-06-23T11:10:17Z beach: fm4d: There are plenty of knowledgeable people hanging out in #lisp.
2018-06-23T11:10:24Z pjb: lisp is not for dummies.
2018-06-23T11:10:29Z beach: makomo: Definitely a good sign, yes.
2018-06-23T11:10:33Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-23T11:10:48Z fm4d: beach yeah, totally, I think it is.. cultural somehow.
2018-06-23T11:10:53Z zhrek: Is PCL not in vouge?
2018-06-23T11:10:56Z pjb: What about: "Lisp in 3650 days"?
2018-06-23T11:10:59Z MichaelRaskin: It is only a question of popularity, though
2018-06-23T11:11:01Z makomo: zhrek: PCL too, how could i forget!
2018-06-23T11:11:09Z fm4d: It feels better to find answers without personal interaction
2018-06-23T11:11:16Z makomo: pjb: let's introduce the constraint, X <= 30
2018-06-23T11:11:23Z MichaelRaskin: I mean, learning Lisp in 21 days as well as the outcome of C++ in 21 days is completely feasible
2018-06-23T11:11:36Z fm4d: makomo what is AMOP?
2018-06-23T11:11:43Z pjb: Of course, you can always teach a subset.
2018-06-23T11:11:43Z makomo: Art of the Meta-Object Protocol
2018-06-23T11:11:46Z pjb: even a useful subset.
2018-06-23T11:12:08Z beach: minion: Please tell fm4d about AMOP.
2018-06-23T11:12:08Z minion: fm4d: direct your attention towards AMOP: AMOP: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See <http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP>
2018-06-23T11:12:12Z fm4d: makomo uff, okay, I thought I miss a book in my collection :D
2018-06-23T11:12:18Z makomo: :-)
2018-06-23T11:12:18Z fm4d: But nope, its there
2018-06-23T11:12:47Z beach: You have it already?
2018-06-23T11:14:31Z beach: fm4d: You might want to put off reading it until you have some significant experience with using CLOS for ordinary applications.
2018-06-23T11:14:33Z fm4d: https://i.imgur.com/zOmjreh.jpg
2018-06-23T11:14:49Z makomo: DAMN! :-D
2018-06-23T11:14:54Z fm4d: I just don't have enough time :D
2018-06-23T11:14:57Z makomo: now that's a beautiful thing to see
2018-06-23T11:15:57Z makomo: i just thought of another book that uses CL as its main language
2018-06-23T11:16:01Z makomo: a quite interesting one actually
2018-06-23T11:16:02Z fm4d: beach: I've decided to just wing it without CLOS, with alists mostly. Its.. maybe dumb but it works for my small projects.
2018-06-23T11:16:06Z makomo: Calendrical Calculations
2018-06-23T11:16:17Z makomo: everything you've ever wanted to know about date, time, timezones, calendars, etc. etc.
2018-06-23T11:16:42Z makomo: it's not about CL, but it uses CL
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2018-06-23T11:16:54Z beach: fm4d: I see.  Using a standard class from time to time is not hard though.  The hard part is designing a reasonable protocol using generic functions.
2018-06-23T11:16:59Z LdBeth: please avoid use lists
2018-06-23T11:17:07Z makomo: fm4d: believe me, you'll want to get familiar with CLOS as soon as possible
2018-06-23T11:17:19Z makomo: not because it'll make your life easier, but because it'll open your eyes
2018-06-23T11:17:30Z makomo: and then maybe make your life easier of course :-)
2018-06-23T11:18:24Z fm4d: I absolutely believe you and I am looking forward to it, I am just trying to mix up theory with practice and exposure to deeply entrench the knowledge.
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2018-06-23T11:18:48Z fm4d: Simply reading about programming language without practicing it is.. wasted time.
2018-06-23T11:19:07Z makomo: well i guess so, but you can always spend some time reading and then go on to programming
2018-06-23T11:19:10Z makomo: like in phases
2018-06-23T11:19:31Z makomo: i think i've spent at least a month or two just reading about lisp :-)
2018-06-23T11:19:45Z makomo: playing in the REPL from time to time, but never writing anything worthwhile
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2018-06-23T11:20:17Z fm4d: Yeah, but if you don't follow with practice and instead you spend next 6 times with other stuff, you realize that you don't really remember much.
2018-06-23T11:20:19Z makomo: i guess the key is actually following up with a programming phase because unless you do, you'll probably forget what you've read
2018-06-23T11:20:28Z makomo: yup
2018-06-23T11:21:28Z fm4d: BTW I am really looking forward to AOMP, that books has a really strange vibe around it, like some ancient grimoire full of knowledge from different times.
2018-06-23T11:21:40Z fm4d: But to be honest most LISP books are like that :D
2018-06-23T11:22:09Z jmercouris: LdBeth: why should one avoid using lists?
2018-06-23T11:22:37Z makomo: fm4d: i know right, it's like the forgotten scrolls of the ancients
2018-06-23T11:23:03Z makomo: btw, did you guys know that AMOP's cover was hand-drawn by des Rivieres' wife?
2018-06-23T11:23:08Z makomo: interesting trivia
2018-06-23T11:23:21Z fm4d: makomo: I have 'scrolls' reserved for actual papers by McCarthy :P
2018-06-23T11:23:28Z LdBeth: jmercouris: it will form a habit which prevents one from thinking at large scale
2018-06-23T11:23:31Z makomo: fm4d: haha
2018-06-23T11:23:53Z jmercouris: LdBeth: Do you have any evidence to support this notion
2018-06-23T11:23:58Z jmercouris: ?
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2018-06-23T11:24:58Z RemoteFox: ola
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2018-06-23T11:25:26Z makomo: \o
2018-06-23T11:26:01Z beach: Hello RemoteFox.
2018-06-23T11:26:17Z jmercouris: LdBeth: I think your claim is unsubstantiated, if you don't know something for certain, its best to stay mum lest you spread misinformation
2018-06-23T11:26:46Z beach: RemoteFox: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2018-06-23T11:27:16Z fm4d: jmercouris I am also curious about that. To me lists feels a lot like dictionaries in Python. You simply use them for nearly everything thats not complicated enough to use OOP.
2018-06-23T11:27:23Z RemoteFox: beach: I am
2018-06-23T11:27:26Z LdBeth: jmercouris: I think at the beginning of J for C Programmer there’s a good example, C people implement a poor file scanner by hand, while in J a more efficient build in parallelized form can be used
2018-06-23T11:27:36Z beach: RemoteFox: What brings you to #lisp?
2018-06-23T11:27:36Z RemoteFox: fm4d just told me about this channel
2018-06-23T11:27:41Z beach: Oh, OK.
2018-06-23T11:28:08Z RemoteFox: I have been recreationally programming in lisp few years back
2018-06-23T11:28:33Z beach: In Common Lisp?
2018-06-23T11:28:47Z fm4d: RemoteFox is a passive lisper :D
2018-06-23T11:28:52Z RemoteFox: common lisp and also in rebol, which is just masked lisp
2018-06-23T11:29:17Z RemoteFox: fm4d: shush
2018-06-23T11:29:35Z jmercouris: fm4d: that or simple structs
2018-06-23T11:30:17Z jmercouris: LdBeth: that might be a good example, but it isn't empirical evidence
2018-06-23T11:30:47Z jmercouris: LdBeth: I suspect there may be truth to what you say, but without evidence, it is not worth saying, or it should be phrased in a way that indicates its uncertainty
2018-06-23T11:30:57Z RemoteFox: right now I do mostly python (job, my own projects), but I am trying to build a self interpreter
2018-06-23T11:31:03Z jmercouris: e.g. "it might be that using lists only stunts your growth as a programmer"
2018-06-23T11:31:24Z fm4d: jmercouris Yes, you can always turn struct/dict/etc into class later, if you need to bind data with behaviour or to inherit it etc.
2018-06-23T11:31:44Z pjb: jmercouris: using anything only stunts your growth as  a programmer (or anything).  When you have a hammer, everything looks like nails!
2018-06-23T11:31:52Z pjb: jmercouris: don't have a hammer. have a toolbox!
2018-06-23T11:31:58Z fm4d: I've always believed that from simple to complicated is a proper pattern of development (at least for rapid prototyping and bottom-up approach)
2018-06-23T11:32:43Z jmercouris: pjb: one must fully understand the hammer before moving onto the screwdriver
2018-06-23T11:32:44Z fm4d: RemoteFox you should mention that 'self' is a language, 'building self interpreter' can be understood in a weird manner.
2018-06-23T11:32:53Z fm4d: RemoteFox: that makes you look crazy
2018-06-23T11:32:57Z fm4d: (:D)
2018-06-23T11:32:58Z RemoteFox: :D
2018-06-23T11:33:21Z pjb: fm4d: yeah but actually all way are good ways: bottom-up, top-down, inside-out, outside-in.  What matters, is iterative and interactive programming.
2018-06-23T11:34:24Z pjb: fm4d: mostly, programming is a discovery process, so you can progress in any direction you like or can, starting from known, and discovering the unknown.  Otherwise you just use libraries.
2018-06-23T11:34:29Z pjb: (using libraries is not programming).
2018-06-23T11:34:33Z fm4d: pjb: That remind me of how wonderful is SLIME, the interactive and reflective capabilities.
2018-06-23T11:35:23Z pjb: jmercouris: not necessarily. You can have an overview of each tool before going deeper and deeper in each.  Since some tools must be used in combination, it's better to do it this way.
2018-06-23T11:37:41Z jmercouris: pjb: I'm not sure what is better or worse, I've done both and it is hard to tell
2018-06-23T11:37:54Z jmercouris: for Lisp I started with a very shallow view of everything, and I forgot so many things
2018-06-23T11:38:06Z jmercouris: it is only now that I am going through a textbook to actually learn the language
2018-06-23T11:38:09Z fm4d: BTW: Is anyone here using some reader macros for hash-table syntax? Like CL21.
2018-06-23T11:38:19Z LdBeth: The most serious problem is, what if, you’re gonna use a language without list?
2018-06-23T11:38:26Z fm4d: It seems really clunky and hard to read in its default form.
2018-06-23T11:38:28Z jmercouris: if I had done this from the beginning I would be "using a hammer" for everything in the start, but I feel like it would be better
2018-06-23T11:38:42Z jmercouris: LdBeth: you can implement a list in any language
2018-06-23T11:38:43Z Lauven: For those of you who have read "Structure and interpretation of computer programs" would you recomend it to someone with just couple of years of javascript experience or should I wait until I get a grasp of scheme and lisp before I dive into it and get more experience in general?
2018-06-23T11:40:06Z jackdaniel: Lauven: SICP is a great book and it is fine to read it without prior scheme / lisp experience
2018-06-23T11:40:09Z jackdaniel: go for it
2018-06-23T11:40:32Z fm4d: Lauven it is actually written for people without prior exposure to lisp, I believe
2018-06-23T11:41:37Z LdBeth only a few chapters before
2018-06-23T11:42:14Z Lauven: Great. Thank you
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2018-06-23T14:31:28Z ted_wroclaw: Hi guys.  Has anyone tried to build cltl2 from the latex source?  I checked github and didn't find anything...
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2018-06-23T14:51:37Z beach: ted_wroclaw: Are you saying that you don't have the source?
2018-06-23T14:51:43Z beach: Why do you want to build it?
2018-06-23T14:52:13Z ted_wroclaw: I have the source, but I got an error when I tried to build it.
2018-06-23T14:52:39Z ted_wroclaw: I want to resize it so that it looks a little better when printed on A4 (or us letter) paper
2018-06-23T14:52:49Z beach: Oh, I see.
2018-06-23T14:53:01Z ted_wroclaw: It's not critical, as I have a printed copy of the book, but it would be nice.
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2018-06-23T15:04:47Z beach: It looks like it is written in an old version of LaTeX and the compatibility mode can not fix it.
2018-06-23T15:05:14Z beach: There is a message saying it is very likely the style file.
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2018-06-23T15:10:45Z ted_wroclaw: Are you using texshop?
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2018-06-23T15:11:24Z beach: ted_wroclaw: No, I was just using pslatex because there seem to be PostScript file for the pictures.
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2018-06-23T15:14:20Z ted_wroclaw: Okay.  I got the same error.  I'm not a latex guru, but I'll see if I can find something on repairing it. I've always regretted not becoming more proficient with latex.
2018-06-23T15:14:51Z beach: I have not been willing to put in the time.
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2018-06-23T15:23:03Z ted_wroclaw: Me neither.  I usually just hack around until I get whatever I'm working on to look nice and leave it at that.  Then I forget how I did it.  My template document header is an enormous collection of commented out packages.  Shameful, really.
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2018-06-23T15:24:34Z beach: I know what you mean.
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2018-06-23T18:07:28Z skidd0: Does anyone have a good resource on print/read from terminal?
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2018-06-23T18:10:40Z jackdaniel: you need to be more specific with your question
2018-06-23T18:10:51Z jackdaniel: standard print and read-line functions work fine in the terminal
2018-06-23T18:11:20Z skidd0: well, I have a program that uses unix-opts library to make an executable with flags
2018-06-23T18:11:41Z skidd0: one of these flags allows the creation of an object by prompting for a name and other info
2018-06-23T18:12:01Z skidd0: but, the program waits for input without displaying the prompt
2018-06-23T18:12:19Z skidd0: and, after i enter info and press return a few times, all the prompts THEN show up
2018-06-23T18:12:35Z skidd0: is this a stream issue?
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2018-06-23T18:13:08Z jackdaniel: normally in the terminal lines are buffered, so you need to end your prompt with a new line (this may be changed, but I don't remember the specifities - it is a terminal emulator setting)
2018-06-23T18:13:29Z jackdaniel: also if you want something to be printed, you may call finish-output on stream
2018-06-23T18:13:29Z skidd0: ah
2018-06-23T18:13:32Z skidd0: that could be it
2018-06-23T18:13:37Z skidd0: they do all appear on the same line
2018-06-23T18:15:01Z skidd0: that seems to do it, thanks man
2018-06-23T18:15:13Z jackdaniel:  sure
2018-06-23T18:17:31Z skidd0: has anyone done any work with object persistence? like cl-prevalance, where the objects are serialized and use transactions for updates. Or, another question, what's a common method for saving objects to disk?
2018-06-23T18:17:56Z phoe: skidd0: I used https://github.com/hanshuebner/bknr-datastore back in the day
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2018-06-23T18:18:10Z skidd0: what do you use now?
2018-06-23T18:18:14Z phoe: skidd0: postgres. (:
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2018-06-23T18:18:32Z phoe: skidd0: what is your data like? what do you want to save?
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2018-06-23T18:18:40Z skidd0: see, i feel like taking my objects and converting them to sql models is unneccessary
2018-06-23T18:18:52Z skidd0: it's TASK-LISTs and TASKs
2018-06-23T18:18:54Z phoe: yep, I understand that one.
2018-06-23T18:19:03Z skidd0: so, easy enough to SQLify I suppose
2018-06-23T18:19:13Z skidd0: but then I have to add IDs for all the relationships
2018-06-23T18:19:24Z skidd0: (tasks can have subtasks)
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2018-06-23T18:19:38Z skidd0: and then I have to deal with SQL joins or an ORM or whatever
2018-06-23T18:20:08Z skidd0: but, my objects already have references to their related parts
2018-06-23T18:20:26Z phoe: yes, I see.
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2018-06-23T18:21:06Z phoe: You should be able to use some kind of simple object store. BKNR.DATASTORE should be a good tool for the job.
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2018-06-23T18:21:38Z jackdaniel: skidd0: cl-store is one of the most popular libraries wrt serialization
2018-06-23T18:22:16Z skidd0: okay awesome
2018-06-23T18:22:17Z skidd0: thanks guys
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2018-06-23T19:25:17Z flip214: is there some special like *print-base* that says how many digits a float number should be printed with?
2018-06-23T19:26:53Z Bike: no. if you're priting with format you can control it though.
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2018-06-23T19:28:04Z flip214: yeah, for debugging I just had a (print (list ......))
2018-06-23T19:28:21Z flip214: but the float and complex numbers are too long for easy reading
2018-06-23T19:28:26Z flip214: thank you very much!
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2018-06-23T19:34:15Z pjb: flip214: for debugging output you want in general the real data dumped.
2018-06-23T19:34:23Z pjb: It's important to print all the digits in this case.
2018-06-23T19:34:32Z pjb: If you want beautiful output, use FORMAT.
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2018-06-23T19:41:53Z flip214: pjb: no, in this case I only care about the first two digits (and the exponent, if not 0)
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2018-06-23T19:51:42Z pjb: 0.120000001e0 and 0.129999999e0 are quite different…
2018-06-23T19:52:24Z pjb: (format nil "~{~,2F ~}" '(0.120000001e0 0.129999999e0)) #| --> "0.12 0.13 " |#
2018-06-23T19:55:41Z _death: if they're printed in a generic way, maybe you can use the pretty printer
2018-06-23T19:58:41Z flip214: pjb: sorry, I'm doing electronic engineering right now... you know, using +-20% capacitors and so on....
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2018-06-23T20:11:02Z pjb: flip214: perhaps it's possible to do something with the pretty printer. Otherwise, wrap your floats in a clos object, and define a print-object method for them.
2018-06-23T20:11:36Z Bike: right want to do that anyway, so you can have components with the same nominal value but different tolerqances
2018-06-23T20:11:49Z pjb: flip214: cf. set-pprint-dispatch
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2018-06-23T20:21:50Z pjb: flip214: (set-pprint-dispatch (quote float) (lambda (stream value) (format stream "~,2F" value))); seems to work, for: (let ((*print-pretty* t)) (print (list pi 0.12000001d0 0.12999999d0)))
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2018-06-23T20:28:33Z didi: We should decide if we want to deprecate structs or not. /me votes for no, but he is not very bright
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2018-06-23T20:29:57Z buffergn0me: Deprecate structs in what context?
2018-06-23T20:30:29Z didi: buffergn0me: In any of them. So we declare CLOS the successor.
2018-06-23T20:33:21Z Bike: defstruct usually defines a class
2018-06-23T20:34:19Z buffergn0me: Structs are really useful apart from generic functions and objects. For example with the :type options to generate accessors for lists/vectors returned by various things
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2018-06-23T20:36:01Z didi: buffergn0me: Can structs define accessors to vectors?
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2018-06-23T20:37:18Z Bike: if you give defstruct :type, it mostly just defines a bunch of functions to do (aref x 0) or whatever.
2018-06-23T20:37:27Z buffergn0me: Yup. See the :type option 2/3rds of the way down the page http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/CLHS/Body/m_defstr.htm
2018-06-23T20:37:58Z buffergn0me: Basically an easy way of getting named tuples
2018-06-23T20:38:04Z didi: Nice. I only knew about list.
2018-06-23T20:38:07Z didi: Thank you.
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2018-06-23T21:37:55Z aeth: :type in defstruct is a lot more widely respected than :type in defclass, and is probably more optimizable where it is respected
2018-06-23T21:38:07Z aeth: So the main use for structs is when you heavily use :type
2018-06-23T21:39:55Z aeth: This is typed slots. Typing the whole struct, of course, is just an array.
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2018-06-23T23:56:20Z epony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71fZhMXlGT4
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2018-06-24T00:12:05Z mfiano: Bike: are you around?
2018-06-24T00:12:11Z Bike: what is up
2018-06-24T00:12:26Z mfiano: I'm looking at your sandalphon.lambda-list library...
2018-06-24T00:13:04Z mfiano: I would like to write a macro that allows specifying types for each argument, so that I can include an ftype declaration in the expansion. Can you give me some pointers on how to use your library to do that? :)
2018-06-24T00:14:59Z Bike: i can't recommend using that library, i think it's better to use an actual parser with a grammar. i don't know if there are other independent parsers though. i know sicl has one
2018-06-24T00:15:12Z mfiano: Oh hmm
2018-06-24T00:15:35Z Bike: to be entirely honest, i don't remember how that library works.
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2018-06-24T00:16:23Z mfiano: Ha fair enough. I really don't want to parse a lambda list myself. My library is in disrepair right now ever since I ripped out the defstar library due to being GPLv3.
2018-06-24T00:16:44Z Bike: yeah, it kind of sucks honestly.
2018-06-24T00:16:52Z mfiano: There doesn't seem to be many choices here to just add typed arguments to a defun wrapper
2018-06-24T00:16:58Z Bike: the one in sicl, or rather concrete-syntax-tree, uses a proper earley grammar
2018-06-24T00:17:03Z Bike: but i don't remember more details
2018-06-24T00:17:58Z mfiano: I guess i'm pretty much screwed...oh well, moving on. Thanks
2018-06-24T00:18:03Z Bike: Sorry
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2018-06-24T03:08:29Z loke: pjb: Right, but in the discussion I had the person was arguing that the object orientation in Objective C was somehow fundamentally different from that of, say, Java because it's “message passing”.
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2018-06-24T03:15:58Z aeth: mfiano: I have a typed define-function
2018-06-24T03:16:08Z mfiano: I just wrote one, thanks
2018-06-24T03:18:27Z aeth: It's harder than it looks in edge cases. I don't currently have typed keyword/optional/rest, for instance. I'll probably copy the syntax from pillton's specialization-store there. Similar syntax already, except I don't provide a return type
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2018-06-24T03:18:37Z mfiano: I do
2018-06-24T03:19:25Z aeth: My return-type will probably be in a keyword argument to the name-and-options instead of its own field after the lambda-list like in specialization-store because I rarely need it
2018-06-24T03:20:25Z mfiano: my signature is (name typed-args (-> result &key inline) &body body)
2018-06-24T03:20:56Z mfiano: and typed-args can be any OLL arguments aside &aux, because I'm lazy and never use them
2018-06-24T03:21:12Z mfiano: THis is for a specialized library anyhow
2018-06-24T03:22:18Z White_Flame: loke: wikipedia says the major difference is that the target method is determined at runtime by the object's code, instead of at compile-time.  So that's a bit more CLOSsy, in the runtime aspect
2018-06-24T03:22:50Z aeth: specialization-store is (name-and-options typed-lambda-list result-type &body body) and mine is (name-and-options typed-lambda-list &body body)
2018-06-24T03:23:15Z aeth: In both, you'd inline like (foo :inline t) in the name arg
2018-06-24T03:23:28Z mfiano: Ok?
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2018-06-24T03:26:21Z aeth: All that's really missing is a defmethod that supports inline and classes for keyword/optional (which iirc are not supported, possibly because of the ambiguity in a straightforward attempt)
2018-06-24T03:27:01Z aeth: Then that part of CL is essentially complete.
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2018-06-24T03:34:15Z proshlo: I'd like to write a Common Lisp interpreter on a graphing calculator so I can use Macsyma on it. Where should I start? I have an almost-finished Scheme interpreter in C++. Do I add special forms to make it a Lisp-2 and add defmacro facilities to bootstrap the rest? Should I go off the Clisp source code instead?
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2018-06-24T03:34:34Z Bike: i recommend not doing it from scratch
2018-06-24T03:35:09Z proshlo: Is there an alternative?
2018-06-24T03:35:15Z loke: proshlo: You can already run Maxima on Android. It's based on ECL.
2018-06-24T03:35:26Z blep-on-external: if you can run C on it, porting ECL could be easier
2018-06-24T03:35:34Z blep-on-external: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/
2018-06-24T03:35:35Z Bike: are graphing calculators android now?
2018-06-24T03:35:42Z proshlo: nope
2018-06-24T03:35:45Z Bike: aw.
2018-06-24T03:35:54Z Bike: still got those weird z80s or whatever i suppose
2018-06-24T03:36:12Z Bike: but yeah try like, retargeting an existing implementation i guess.
2018-06-24T03:36:13Z proshlo: All you have is Z80 assembler or Basic AFAIK.
2018-06-24T03:36:25Z Bike: lisp has a huge standard library and macsyma uses a lot of it.
2018-06-24T03:36:47Z aeth: Graphing calculators are essentially identical to how they were 15+ years ago, stuck in time, afaik
2018-06-24T03:37:03Z proshlo: Bike: That's why everyone and their dog writes Scheme interpreters instead, huh?
2018-06-24T03:37:08Z Bike: was hoping the xkcd comic was inaccurate.
2018-06-24T03:37:39Z blep-on-external: still with z80, https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=802158
2018-06-24T03:37:40Z aeth: Well, you can't have a significantly better one because they're mostly used on standardized tests or in classrooms.
2018-06-24T03:37:43Z proshlo: aeth: I think the most powerful version of the TI-84s has a 15mhz CPU and 24mB of ram.
2018-06-24T03:37:46Z Bike: proshlo: i mean, a lisp interpreter isn't really much harder than a scheme interpreter. having actual library functions is more work than the basic "if you type Z that evaluates to Y" stuff.
2018-06-24T03:37:55Z blep-on-external: i'm not saying get it from arxiv, but get it from arxiv and say if it's any good
2018-06-24T03:37:57Z White_Flame: proshlo: Scheme was intended as a minimalist language.  Continuations can be kinda confusing, but would be a lot easier to implement in an interpreter than in a compiler
2018-06-24T03:38:25Z loke: proshlo: 24 millibyte?
2018-06-24T03:38:28Z Bike: i also thought modern graphing calculators had some basic CAS in them. i know mine does
2018-06-24T03:38:38Z proshlo: loke: 24mb of RAM
2018-06-24T03:38:58Z loke: proshlo: mb means millibits
2018-06-24T03:39:03Z loke: I'm guessing that you mean MB
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2018-06-24T03:40:38Z proshlo: loke: yeah Bike: Mine can do numerical integration, but not symbolic. I'd like to have that because Calc II is hard. :)
2018-06-24T03:40:41Z blep-on-external: http://sci-hub.tw/10.1145/800069.802158
2018-06-24T03:40:58Z Bike: i mean mine could do symbolic too.
2018-06-24T03:41:08Z Bike: at least to some extent. probably not the whole risch algorithm.
2018-06-24T03:41:20Z Bike: (risch algorithm is another thing you shouldn't implement from scratch btw)
2018-06-24T03:41:36Z loke: I had an HP-48 back in the day, it did some symbolc styff
2018-06-24T03:41:42Z loke: that was in the 80's.
2018-06-24T03:41:54Z loke: The programming language was very lisp-like too.
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2018-06-24T03:42:13Z loke: It even had the code-is-data concept
2018-06-24T03:42:25Z Bike: grown out of assembler?
2018-06-24T03:42:50Z loke: Bike: the HP-48 one? No.
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2018-06-24T03:43:45Z loke: the HP-58 language was stack based. So { X DUP MULT }  was a list of three symbols, or a program that squares X
2018-06-24T03:43:53Z loke: s/58/48/
2018-06-24T03:43:58Z Bike: oh, so joy. neat.
2018-06-24T03:44:08Z aeth: loke: The HP-48 is what I use when I need a calculator.
2018-06-24T03:44:11Z aeth: Well, an emulated version of it
2018-06-24T03:44:14Z aeth: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.ab.x48&hl=en
2018-06-24T03:44:50Z aeth: And it's an old enough app that it doesn't have ads or microtransactions or other nonsense! (I don't think I would have found it in today's Android.)
2018-06-24T03:45:09Z loke: Me and a friend implemented LISP-EVAL on the hp48. It wasn't much code, and it gave us Lisp.
2018-06-24T03:45:24Z aeth: loke: Do you still have the program? It would be interesting to see if it runs in Droid 48
2018-06-24T03:45:55Z loke: aeth: LISP-EVAL? No... we wrote it on the actual device, and lost the code before we could save it.
2018-06-24T03:46:16Z loke: We only spent a couple of hours on it, but it was pretty complete.
2018-06-24T03:47:31Z loke: One interesting aspect of the HP-48 language is if A contains the symbol B, and B contains the symbol C, then evaluating A results in C.
2018-06-24T03:50:51Z proshlo: blep-on-external: Thanks for the link. I'll try implementing this.
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2018-06-24T04:28:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-24T05:49:16Z makomo: morning
2018-06-24T05:50:16Z beach: Hello makomo.
2018-06-24T05:50:41Z makomo: beach: where in SICL can i find the lambda-list parser?
2018-06-24T05:51:26Z beach: Hold on...
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2018-06-24T05:52:22Z makomo: i just found parse-macro-lambda-list, but i'm interested in the one using a proper grammar and an early parser
2018-06-24T05:52:38Z beach: The old one (deprecated) is in Code/Cleavir/Code-utilities/lambda-lists.lisp
2018-06-24T05:52:47Z beach: Oh, that one.
2018-06-24T05:52:53Z beach: It is in the CST repository.
2018-06-24T05:53:00Z beach: Concrete-Syntax-Tree
2018-06-24T05:53:02Z makomo: ah
2018-06-24T05:53:05Z beach: Not in SICL.
2018-06-24T05:53:32Z makomo: i see it, thanks :-)
2018-06-24T05:53:37Z beach: Great!
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2018-06-24T07:20:03Z Murii_: Hi, how can I change a "car" ?
2018-06-24T07:20:21Z Murii_: I'm looking for something like: (setcar var val)
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2018-06-24T07:32:30Z littlelisper: any way i can convert a character into a string?
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2018-06-24T07:32:46Z beach: Murii_: (setf (car x) new-value)
2018-06-24T07:32:50Z beach: clhs car
2018-06-24T07:32:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_car_c.htm
2018-06-24T07:33:11Z Murii_: +1
2018-06-24T07:33:24Z beach: Murii_: ↑ Notice how it says that CAR is an "accessor".  That means you can use it with SETF as I showed.
2018-06-24T07:33:37Z beach: littlelisper: (string char)
2018-06-24T07:33:40Z beach: clhs string
2018-06-24T07:33:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_string.htm
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2018-06-24T07:34:04Z littlelisper: beach: thank, now i feel dumb
2018-06-24T07:34:14Z beach: No need.
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2018-06-24T08:46:51Z aeth: car is old enough that there's also another, legacy way. rplaca. yeah, use (setf (car x) 42) instead of (replaca x 42)
2018-06-24T08:47:04Z aeth: accessors are much nicer
2018-06-24T08:47:32Z aeth: (And you can tell that they're nicer because I misspelled rplaca the second time)
2018-06-24T08:51:08Z shka_: (funcall #'(setf car) 42 x)
2018-06-24T08:51:43Z shka_: easy to remember because order is the same as argument list to setf-at-something functions
2018-06-24T08:56:43Z pjb: CAR is even older than LISP itself!
2018-06-24T08:57:01Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
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2018-06-24T09:00:43Z aeth: pjb: looks like it was XCARF there.
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2018-06-24T09:01:10Z pjb: Just because FORTRAN doesn't have namespaces.
2018-06-24T09:01:40Z pjb: But it was even older than flpl, since it is a microinstruction of the 709/7090.
2018-06-24T09:03:38Z aeth: Even older than that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_automobile
2018-06-24T09:03:45Z pjb: :-)
2018-06-24T09:05:02Z aeth: but I guess Lisp is proof that everything in software bloats into something way past its original purpose
2018-06-24T09:06:54Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoW8Tf7hTGA yep, bloated lisp is Sirius A.
2018-06-24T09:08:43Z LdBeth: aeth: so how about FORTRAN?
2018-06-24T09:08:43Z Smokitch: well, you either die pure or live long enough to become something like Java
2018-06-24T09:09:03Z pjb: Funny to use the music of Blade Runner in this clip.  In Blade Runner, space didn't go beyond the solar system!
2018-06-24T09:09:17Z LdBeth: Nowadays no more people use FORTRAN to write text editors
2018-06-24T09:09:38Z pjb: I did that in 1984! I wrote an ed(1) in Fortran IV…
2018-06-24T09:09:48Z pjb: (school project).
2018-06-24T09:11:23Z LdBeth: Real Programmers don’t use PASCAL :D
2018-06-24T09:11:56Z MichaelRaskin: Right. Readable programs are unacceptable.
2018-06-24T09:15:07Z oni-on-ion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKkMKbocjOA
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2018-06-24T09:17:50Z oni-on-ion: seeing tonight, holy cow, shinmera has done a lot of powerful cl libs!
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2018-06-24T09:34:44Z oni-on-ion: https://github.com/whily/yalo  speaking of Mezzano and other lisp OS the other day
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2018-06-24T09:43:49Z shka_: the downfall of pascal is unfortunate imho
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2018-06-24T09:44:22Z beach: Nah.  It wasn't great.
2018-06-24T09:45:22Z shka_: i wasn't, but it was acceptable medium of education
2018-06-24T09:45:27Z shka_: unlike C
2018-06-24T09:45:46Z beach: That might be true.
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2018-06-24T09:47:50Z shka_: decline of didactic languages is worrying trend
2018-06-24T09:48:14Z shka_: at least scheme keeps on living
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2018-06-24T09:50:35Z shka_: besides, at work C++ projects takes over 1 hour to build on modern PC
2018-06-24T09:50:59Z shka_: that makes me think that Turbo Pascal had it's merits :D
2018-06-24T09:51:40Z shka_: gladly, i escaped that trap
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2018-06-24T10:00:56Z Murii_: shka_, that can happen with Java as well and thb I don't see the problem if you know what I mean ;)
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2018-06-24T10:01:56Z shka_: Murii_: corporations will find other language to build pyramids
2018-06-24T10:02:03Z Murii_: I mean, not really 1h but long compile times
2018-06-24T10:02:14Z Murii_: maybe
2018-06-24T10:02:16Z shka_: aaah, about that
2018-06-24T10:02:18Z MichaelRaskin: I think at the same level of implementation effort Pascal is better than C and Object Pascal chimera is better than C++.
2018-06-24T10:02:27Z shka_: no java, builds quite fast
2018-06-24T10:02:36Z Murii_: gwt does not
2018-06-24T10:02:55Z Murii_: java to js
2018-06-24T10:04:12Z shka_: well, but pascal is quite dead
2018-06-24T10:04:24Z shka_: delphi still lives, but barely
2018-06-24T10:05:27Z MichaelRaskin: The scary part that I am not sure there is anything better for quickly mashing together a native GUI app than Lazarus and FPC (Lazarus being a free/libre Delphi look-alike)
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2018-06-24T10:19:10Z MichaelRaskin: beach: how do you expect debugger thread to learn that the debugged thread has reached a breakpoint?
2018-06-24T10:20:33Z LdBeth: I think the breakpoint is injected into code
2018-06-24T10:20:52Z MichaelRaskin: LdBeth: this is what happens in the _debugged_ thread
2018-06-24T10:21:21Z MichaelRaskin: And for this I have something now.
2018-06-24T10:21:34Z MichaelRaskin: But the debugger thread says «step»
2018-06-24T10:21:55Z MichaelRaskin: What happens now with it? It waits on a lock? What if the step-over doesn't complete in any reasonable time?
2018-06-24T10:22:05Z MichaelRaskin: Or is it actively polling?
2018-06-24T10:23:15Z MichaelRaskin: Waiting with one-second timeout?
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2018-06-24T10:32:18Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Good question.
2018-06-24T10:32:39Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I think that before going blocked, they will inform the debugger thread.
2018-06-24T10:33:01Z MichaelRaskin: That is for sure, but via which mechanism?
2018-06-24T10:33:45Z beach: I'm not sure.  I am not so good with threads yet.
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2018-06-24T10:34:37Z MichaelRaskin: OK, I can probably translate the properties of notification mechanism into thread primitives.
2018-06-24T10:35:07Z MichaelRaskin: When debugger says «step over», can it ever continue execution before step-over is complete?
2018-06-24T10:35:15Z beach: Yeah.  I would have to look them up and make a choice.
2018-06-24T10:36:09Z MichaelRaskin: In a way, this is a separate layer so if you answer a few yes-or-no questions I can implement something, and this layer can be swapped out if needed
2018-06-24T10:36:21Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-24T10:36:38Z Athas: b
2018-06-24T10:36:55Z beach: Hello Athas!
2018-06-24T10:37:11Z Athas: Hi!  That was a mere typo, unfortunately.  I have nothing to contribute.
2018-06-24T10:37:19Z MichaelRaskin: Because the lowest layer (inject poll points, inject whole-function-skipping for undebugged threads, control debuggedness) works now.
2018-06-24T10:37:26Z beach: Athas: Still, good to see you back.
2018-06-24T10:37:37Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Oh, nice!
2018-06-24T10:38:02Z MichaelRaskin: Obviously, I use it for silly tracing
2018-06-24T10:38:24Z beach: Right.  Interactive debuggers are not your thing as I recall.
2018-06-24T10:38:46Z MichaelRaskin: Also, it is not yet at the level where it can be even used as interactive.
2018-06-24T10:39:03Z beach: I understand.
2018-06-24T10:39:04Z MichaelRaskin: Which is why I ask about the communication logic.
2018-06-24T10:39:53Z MichaelRaskin: So, yes-or-no: debugger thread invoking setp-over has a chance to change its mind before step-over operation is complete?
2018-06-24T10:40:22Z MichaelRaskin: step-over
2018-06-24T10:40:46Z beach: Sure.  But what do you think will happen if it changes its mind?
2018-06-24T10:41:27Z MichaelRaskin: Well, simple case: it could add more breakpoints.
2018-06-24T10:42:01Z beach: I think what I wrote in the specification is that the debugger creates volatile breakpoints and all those are removed when the debugged thread stops at any kind of breakpoint.  So it's enough for the debugger to remove the volatile breakpoint before the application thread reaches it.
2018-06-24T10:42:15Z beach: Sure, I don't see a problem with that.
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2018-06-24T10:43:50Z MichaelRaskin: My plan is to show you a demo where you will agree that details like breakpoint volatileness can be implemented independently of underlying implementation.
2018-06-24T10:45:10Z beach: OK.  I think whether a breakpoint is volatile or not is just a bit set by the debugger in whatever representation it has for breakpoints.
2018-06-24T10:45:15Z MichaelRaskin: On the other hand, debugger thread constantly doing something (polling a variable) as fast as possible (a state known as spinlock) and maybe deciding to change its mind based on another variable it polls is probably a bad idea (spinlocks are often very efficient at hogging a core fore doing nothing)?
2018-06-24T10:45:42Z MichaelRaskin: Basically, if you reach a breakpoint, it is an expensive event and you can put whatever logic you want.
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2018-06-24T10:45:51Z beach: Sure.
2018-06-24T10:45:58Z MichaelRaskin: It can only happen at typing speed!
2018-06-24T10:46:15Z beach: I don't see why the debugger thread would lock at all.  The user may want to interact with it when the application is running.
2018-06-24T10:47:37Z MichaelRaskin: Does user need to actively request status update to see if the breakpoint has been reached?
2018-06-24T10:47:49Z beach: I hope not.
2018-06-24T10:47:55Z beach: That would be very inconvenient.
2018-06-24T10:49:40Z MichaelRaskin: Unfortunately, if the thread is interacting with a user, there is always a risk it will enter a blocking wait for input.
2018-06-24T10:50:30Z MichaelRaskin: A notification could actually be printed by the debugged thread.
2018-06-24T10:50:48Z MichaelRaskin: (Notification callback is easy to replace at runtime as needed, f course)
2018-06-24T10:50:54Z MichaelRaskin: of course
2018-06-24T10:51:17Z MichaelRaskin: Then there is not even a notion of the debugger thread
2018-06-24T10:51:28Z beach: Or the debugger could have several threads, one waiting for the application to stop and one interacting with the user.
2018-06-24T10:51:57Z MichaelRaskin: Does this description mean that the debugger is another process?
2018-06-24T10:52:14Z MichaelRaskin: Basically, what is cheap for me is: there is no notion of «debugger thread»
2018-06-24T10:52:27Z beach: No, I definitely do not want the debugger to be another process (in the Unix sense of "process").
2018-06-24T10:52:46Z MichaelRaskin: Do you want to forbid it or do you just not care?
2018-06-24T10:53:17Z beach: I have absolutely no interest in designing a communication protocol between a debugger and an application.
2018-06-24T10:53:30Z MichaelRaskin: Fair enough.
2018-06-24T10:53:43Z MichaelRaskin: I think the notion of «debugger thread» might be misleading then
2018-06-24T10:53:52Z MichaelRaskin: There is no special status of «debugger thread»
2018-06-24T10:54:37Z beach: Correct.  It's just the thread(s) that happen to run the code of the debugger.  There is nothing special with it (them).
2018-06-24T10:55:54Z MichaelRaskin: There are instrumented functions. (SICL case: all of the user functions and some of the implementation functions. Portable prototype: the functions from files loaded in «wrapped» mode, the functions from files that declare themselves «wrapped», the functions that were declared wrapped on their own)
2018-06-24T10:56:52Z MichaelRaskin: Each instrumented function checks if it is in the debugger mode, if not — executes uninstrumented copy of its body, otherwise executes the body with polling points.
2018-06-24T10:57:21Z beach: Sounds good.
2018-06-24T10:57:35Z MichaelRaskin: Each polling point calls a hook (settable for each debugged thread separately)
2018-06-24T10:57:59Z MichaelRaskin: (Above this line is a summary of currently working code)
2018-06-24T10:58:11Z beach: Great!
2018-06-24T10:58:23Z MichaelRaskin: So the plan for the hook is: check if anything has to be done at all
2018-06-24T10:59:31Z MichaelRaskin: If a breakpoint (in some sense) is reached, the hook includes notification logic (simplest case: print to *trace-output*)
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2018-06-24T10:59:40Z MichaelRaskin: Then pauses itself
2018-06-24T10:59:49Z beach: Sounds right.
2018-06-24T11:01:00Z MichaelRaskin: After the pause it checks if a variable (tied to the thread) has been set to something it can evaluate. If it is null, it re-pauses itself (it is a loop), otherwise it evaluates the code put into the variable and clears it
2018-06-24T11:01:50Z MichaelRaskin: That code might tell it to set some breakpoints, or to evaluate stuff in context, or to exit the breakpoint and continue running
2018-06-24T11:02:15Z MichaelRaskin: We are same-process, so arbitrary code execution doesn't change anything
2018-06-24T11:02:17Z beach: Now I am a bit confused.
2018-06-24T11:02:32Z beach: Why is it the debugged thread that sets breakpoints?
2018-06-24T11:04:24Z MichaelRaskin: Good question. Examination of thread context (like thread-local values of global variables is still needed, though)
2018-06-24T11:04:49Z beach: Definitely.
2018-06-24T11:04:59Z MichaelRaskin: Where you keep the breakpoints is free choice, so yes, you can set them from debugger thread.
2018-06-24T11:05:21Z MichaelRaskin: Unless you want to have a thread-local global variable with breakpoints, then you need to do it from the debugged thread
2018-06-24T11:05:53Z MichaelRaskin: But anyway, debugger thread is nothing special unless your _notification_ logic is «unfreeze thread X»
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2018-06-24T11:06:34Z beach: Yes, I see, it would be highly implementation specific to examine the special variables of a different thread.
2018-06-24T11:07:01Z beach: Or anything else in the dynamic environment of some other thread.
2018-06-24T11:07:16Z MichaelRaskin: And I want something portable almost for free, so code injection for special-variable examination is my choice
2018-06-24T11:07:25Z beach: Got it.
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2018-06-24T11:10:16Z MichaelRaskin: Anyway, if you want a global breakpoint table keyed on the debug session name — my current code doesn't care yet, and SBCL provides auto-locked hashtables, so it can be done externally.
2018-06-24T11:11:23Z beach: My plan was to keep the breakpoint table in the data structures of the debugger.
2018-06-24T11:12:37Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it needs to be accessible to both debugger and debugged thread
2018-06-24T11:12:51Z beach: Hmm.
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2018-06-24T11:14:11Z MichaelRaskin: Either it is free-for-all, then it is a global hashtable/array.
2018-06-24T11:14:47Z beach: Yes, I see why it is necessary if you want your implementation to be portable the way you have said.
2018-06-24T11:15:03Z MichaelRaskin: There is another portable option that I do use for debug flag
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2018-06-24T11:15:52Z MichaelRaskin: Hm.
2018-06-24T11:16:16Z MichaelRaskin: I have freedom of representation, actually
2018-06-24T11:16:43Z MichaelRaskin: The other option is there is an object that the thread keeps in a thread-local global variable, and the external world accesses via a hashtable.
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2018-06-24T11:18:54Z MichaelRaskin: Which I actually prefer
2018-06-24T11:19:04Z MichaelRaskin: And which I should use in a less crazy way than right now
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2018-06-24T12:46:24Z shka_: should i use print-object or print-unreadable for printing conditions?
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2018-06-24T12:46:51Z beach: FORMAT
2018-06-24T12:48:06Z shka_: sorry, let me rephrase it
2018-06-24T12:48:12Z shka_: i have my own condition
2018-06-24T12:48:22Z shka_: i want it to be printable
2018-06-24T12:48:38Z shka_: should i implement print-object or print-unreadable method?
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2018-06-24T12:55:50Z beach: None of it.  You should use the :report option to define-condition.
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2018-06-24T13:17:24Z shka_: beach: oh, ok
2018-06-24T13:17:32Z shka_: i will read it
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2018-06-24T14:13:26Z phoe: shka_: :report (lambda (stream) ...)
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2018-06-24T14:13:41Z phoe: or (defun my-report (stream) ...) and :report my-report
2018-06-24T14:13:49Z phoe: (AFAIR)
2018-06-24T14:14:00Z shka_: phoe: ok, beach already aided me but thanks
2018-06-24T14:14:09Z phoe: yep
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2018-06-24T14:32:49Z kuribas: does lisp have something like srfi's?
2018-06-24T14:32:56Z kuribas: so lrfi's?
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2018-06-24T14:33:22Z MichaelRaskin: Somewhat… CDR
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2018-06-24T14:33:55Z Xach: kuribas: no
2018-06-24T14:33:59Z Xach: very somewhat cdr
2018-06-24T14:34:31Z kuribas: cdr?
2018-06-24T14:38:05Z phoe: kuribas: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/
2018-06-24T14:38:24Z kuribas: phoe: thanks
2018-06-24T14:39:00Z kuribas: is there a let* form that tests for nil?
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2018-06-24T14:39:56Z phoe: kuribas: alexandria:when-let*
2018-06-24T14:41:35Z kuribas: what's alexandria?
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2018-06-24T14:42:14Z phoe: kuribas: an often-used utility library for Common Lisp.
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2018-06-24T14:42:18Z phoe: (ql:quickload :alexandria)
2018-06-24T14:43:10Z kuribas: ah, I see
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2018-06-24T15:02:31Z kuribas: I got this question on an interview: without using regexps, extract all numbers from a string.  For example "123abc456" => (123 456)
2018-06-24T15:02:49Z kuribas: here is my solution: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/cd0f725b9de6ff909326ad2856441943
2018-06-24T15:03:02Z kuribas: the haskell code is very elegant, but the lisp code is a monstrosity...
2018-06-24T15:03:08Z kuribas: is there a better way to write this?
2018-06-24T15:03:25Z _death: clhs parse-integer
2018-06-24T15:03:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm
2018-06-24T15:04:19Z kuribas: _death: that's not a solution
2018-06-24T15:04:34Z _death: you didn't ask for one
2018-06-24T15:04:57Z kuribas: <kuribas> is there a better way to write this?
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2018-06-24T15:05:10Z kuribas: _death: that sounds pretty much like asking for a solution, doesn't it?
2018-06-24T15:05:14Z _death: the answer is: yes.  read the parse-integer entry, note junk-allowed and the secondary return value
2018-06-24T15:06:44Z _death: note start and end while you're at it..
2018-06-24T15:06:56Z kuribas: hmm, that would help
2018-06-24T15:07:32Z pjb: kuribas: https://pastebin.com/3WgVBjBa
2018-06-24T15:07:36Z _death: if you want something closer to your haskell program, you can define group-by etc.. language is raw material
2018-06-24T15:08:06Z kuribas: yeah, this should be handy: https://github.com/vindarel/cl-str
2018-06-24T15:08:36Z kuribas: I could make it easy and implement the haskell standard library in lisp :-)
2018-06-24T15:09:02Z kuribas: does lisp have lazy lists or streams?
2018-06-24T15:10:00Z phoe: kuribas: streams, yep
2018-06-24T15:10:03Z makomo: pjb: could you make END begin at 0 instead of that :then?
2018-06-24T15:10:03Z _death: there are libraries
2018-06-24T15:10:23Z makomo: pjb: or would it maybe fail for empty strings or something
2018-06-24T15:11:14Z kuribas: phoe: are streams sequences?
2018-06-24T15:11:55Z pjb: you would need an iteration before the first iteration…
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2018-06-24T15:13:21Z makomo: pjb: what is the difference between (position-if ...) and (position-if ... :start 0)?
2018-06-24T15:13:32Z pjb: yes, it would work: https://pastebin.com/ZenheugD
2018-06-24T15:13:45Z makomo: yep, that looks a bit cleaner
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2018-06-24T15:16:05Z pjb: kuribas: closer to your haskell code: https://pastebin.com/QGKDSgGA
2018-06-24T15:17:10Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:nsplit-list-on-indicator is similar to your groupBy
2018-06-24T15:17:45Z pjb: ignore-errors is like mayBe; ignore-errors + parse-integer = readMayBe
2018-06-24T15:17:51Z pjb: and remove nil = mapMaybe
2018-06-24T15:18:06Z pjb: Notice that we don't have to specify any types, lisp is smarter…
2018-06-24T15:18:58Z kuribas: pjb: you don't need any in haskell either
2018-06-24T15:19:24Z kuribas: pjb: top level types are a convention, and readMaybe is ambigous.
2018-06-24T15:19:38Z _death: you can (loop for group in (group-by #'digit-char-p string) when (parse-integer group :junk-allowed t) collect it) .. just need to write group-by
2018-06-24T15:19:49Z kuribas: pjb: cool thanks.
2018-06-24T15:20:35Z kuribas: ah, split from cl-str is useful
2018-06-24T15:23:16Z pjb: kuribas: you should read: https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf
2018-06-24T15:24:10Z kuribas: pjb: why?
2018-06-24T15:24:37Z pjb: It's the roots of functional programming.
2018-06-24T15:25:02Z pjb: You can see that you may easily implement a library of operators in lisp to use this programming style.
2018-06-24T15:25:45Z kuribas: pjb: ah I see.  This video is also great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrNdvWqxBvA&t=47s
2018-06-24T15:25:58Z kuribas: (Why Functional Programming Matters by John Hughes at Functional Conf 2016)
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2018-06-24T15:31:04Z Beep-Lord: Anyone know how to get the address of a foreign function with cffi? I have used defcfun and want to get the pointer using the symbol used for defcfun.
2018-06-24T15:35:15Z pjb: (callback fname) perhaps?
2018-06-24T15:35:42Z Beep-Lord: I believe that only works with defcallback
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2018-06-24T15:38:42Z _death: maybe foreign-symbol-pointer
2018-06-24T15:39:07Z Beep-Lord: Needs a string
2018-06-24T15:39:23Z Beep-Lord: Case-sensitivity is lost with a foreign name translation
2018-06-24T15:39:38Z Beep-Lord: So I would need to brute force the Upper case combinations
2018-06-24T15:40:28Z _death: you've reached the wrong conclusion
2018-06-24T15:41:10Z Beep-Lord: In what way?
2018-06-24T15:43:08Z _death: f-s-p is the primitive you're looking for.. it needs a string indeed.. with defcfun, the lisp name is arbitrary, and there can be multiple lisp names for the same foreign name
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2018-06-24T15:43:52Z _death: so if you want you can maintain a mapping from symbols to foreign names and write something to lookup and call the primitive
2018-06-24T15:47:33Z Beep-Lord: Okay, I see what you're saying. That's what I was hoping to avoid though.
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2018-06-24T15:50:28Z _death: you can patch cffi's %defcfun so that it will attach a foreign-name property to the symbol.. or define your own defcfun of course
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2018-06-24T15:51:17Z Beep-Lord: Yeah, I'll probably just wrap a macro around defcfun.
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2018-06-24T15:54:06Z drmeister: clhs with-compilation-unit
2018-06-24T15:54:06Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_comp.htm
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2018-06-24T15:55:03Z kuribas: version 2: https://gist.github.com/kuribas/cd0f725b9de6ff909326ad2856441943#file-all_nums-lisp
2018-06-24T15:56:34Z Xach: can anyone tell me why I get this error? http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-06-24/failure-report/gsll.html#gsll
2018-06-24T15:58:33Z pjb: kuribas: instead of (lambda (c) (not (digit-char-p c)))  you can write (complement #'digit-char-p)
2018-06-24T15:58:48Z pjb: kuribas: cf. Bachus' paper linked above.
2018-06-24T15:59:00Z pjb: s/h/k/
2018-06-24T15:59:05Z kuribas: pjb: right, thanks
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2018-06-24T16:00:01Z kuribas: is there a composition function?
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2018-06-24T16:00:56Z pjb: there's one in alexandria, and there's a composition macro in  com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.utility:compose : (compose sin cos)
2018-06-24T16:01:15Z pjb: is nicer than (compose (function sin) (function cos))
2018-06-24T16:01:37Z Xach: kuribas: not built-in
2018-06-24T16:01:57Z kuribas: pjb: yeah
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2018-06-24T16:04:12Z _death: Xach: note comment https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/antik/gsll/blob/master/solve-minimize-fit/nonlinear-least-squares.lisp#L149
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2018-06-24T16:05:08Z Xach: what on earth is up with different signatures for #-gsl2 #+gsl2
2018-06-24T16:05:26Z Xach: _death: thanks
2018-06-24T16:05:45Z Xach: And how did I go from one configuration to another...
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2018-06-24T16:34:48Z rtt: hi
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2018-06-24T16:46:51Z LdBeth: Any advice on typesetting lisp code in LaTeX?
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2018-06-24T16:56:32Z Ukari: is there a class or struct for representing nil? for example, (defmethod test ((x nil)) (print "nil"))
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2018-06-24T16:58:29Z _death: yes, it's called NULL
2018-06-24T16:59:09Z Ukari: well
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2018-06-24T17:19:55Z Beep-Lord: LdBeth, doesn't org-mode have a way to export to LaTeX? You could probably examine some of its exported code to see what it does with inline code.
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2018-06-24T17:49:42Z makomo: Ukari: if you want to specialize on nil you can use EQL specializers: (defmethod test ((x (eql nil))))
2018-06-24T17:52:13Z Ukari: makomo, is it possible to write like this ? (defmethod test ((x (or null function))) (print "null or fun"))
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2018-06-24T17:53:18Z makomo: Ukari: nope. a specializer can either by a CLOS class name or the special EQL specializer of the form (eql <something>) where <something> will be evaluated when the method is defined
2018-06-24T17:53:23Z makomo: s/by/be/
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2018-06-24T18:00:12Z pjb: Ukari: (defun test/null-or-function (x) (print "null or fun")) (defgeneric test (x) (:method ((x null)) (test/null-or-function x)) (:method ((x function)) (test/null-or-function x)))
2018-06-24T18:03:16Z Ukari: why defmethod not support different number arguments?
2018-06-24T18:03:41Z pjb: It supports it: (defmethod foo (x y) (list x y)) (defmethd bar (x) (list x))
2018-06-24T18:03:43Z makomo: Ukari: it's not that it doesn't support multiple arguments, it just doesn't support multiple *specializers*
2018-06-24T18:04:00Z makomo: well actually that's the wrong terminology
2018-06-24T18:04:07Z makomo: it doesn't support multiple types for a single specializers*
2018-06-24T18:04:14Z Ukari: i meant (defmethod test(x)) (defmethod test(x y))
2018-06-24T18:04:22Z pjb: it just doens't support TYPES!
2018-06-24T18:04:31Z makomo: pjb: true, CLOS classes/EQL specializers
2018-06-24T18:04:35Z makomo: my bad
2018-06-24T18:04:39Z pjb: methods are defined by CLOS, and CLOS defines CLASSES, not types.
2018-06-24T18:05:49Z pjb: (or x y) is a TYPE designer.  There is no such thing for classes, (but perhaps, mixing subclasses: (defclass foo (a b) ()) but 1- it's not possible with built-in classes, 2- it's more like a AND than an OR.
2018-06-24T18:06:46Z MichaelRaskin: beach: OK, first use of my code to step through a loop in another thread
2018-06-24T18:08:34Z Ukari: which is recommand to use when have multiple types? single defgeneric or multi defmethod?
2018-06-24T18:08:56Z pjb: NONE!
2018-06-24T18:09:03Z pjb: Ukari: I just explained that CLOS doesn't work with types!
2018-06-24T18:09:19Z makomo: Ukari: you need both a defgeneric and a defmethod. the example that pjb wrote showed an "inline" definition of a method using the :method option with defgeneric
2018-06-24T18:09:23Z pjb: If you have multiple types, you have to use TYPECASE (or CTYPECASE or ETYPECASE) explicitely.
2018-06-24T18:09:26Z pjb: with defun.
2018-06-24T18:09:38Z Ukari: well, -> when have different typeclass
2018-06-24T18:09:43Z pjb: Notice that there is no CLASSCASE.
2018-06-24T18:09:45Z Ukari: typecase
2018-06-24T18:09:57Z pjb: defgeneric/defmethod is the classcase of CL.
2018-06-24T18:11:23Z Ukari: i found that it also supports struct and null in defmethod, are null and struct both a kind of classcase?
2018-06-24T18:11:29Z pjb: Class types are just a gateway between CLOS and CL minus CLOS, so that you can use TYPECASE with CLOS instances.  But they're not useful otherwise.  If you have classes, then just consider classes and do OOP.  If you have types, then do usual procedural programming using typecase.
2018-06-24T18:11:50Z pjb: NULL is a System Class!
2018-06-24T18:11:54Z pjb: Read clhs
2018-06-24T18:11:56Z pjb: clhs null
2018-06-24T18:11:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm
2018-06-24T18:13:03Z ebrasca: Can I overwrite one slot wich other name in some object making new subclass?
2018-06-24T18:14:12Z makomo: ebrasca: what do you mean by overwrite?
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2018-06-24T18:15:18Z ebrasca: mmm change some accesor name
2018-06-24T18:16:18Z makomo: ebrasca: accessors are just methods that are defined for you by defclass
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2018-06-24T18:17:18Z makomo: i'm not 100% sure how accessor (:writer, :reader, :accessor) properties are inherited
2018-06-24T18:17:33Z pjb: Ukari: but be careful when reading clhs, because the information is spread all over the place.  For example, clhs defstruct says "defstruct defines a structured type, named structure-type, with named slots as specified by the slot-options." but in the description of the :type option, it also says: "defstruct without a :type option defines a class with the structure name as its name. The metaclass of structure instances is
2018-06-24T18:17:33Z pjb: structure-class."
2018-06-24T18:17:36Z makomo: but if it isn't "by union", then you can just define your own on the side i guess
2018-06-24T18:17:37Z ebrasca: I am thinking how to implement ext2 and later maybe ext3 and ext4.
2018-06-24T18:18:18Z pjb: Ukari: this means that not all "structures" are classes.  (defstruct point x y) -> defines a type and defines a structure class. (defstruct (point :type vector) x y)  -> only defines a type!
2018-06-24T18:19:20Z pjb: Ukari: this is why if you just say that you have a structure, and moreover, if you say that you have a structure TYPE, then you CANNOT use defgeneric/defmethod because you've not affirmed you had a structure CLASS!
2018-06-24T18:20:08Z pjb: ebrasca: you can definitely add accessors to slots. And also change the type (as long as you respect the Lyskov substitution principle).
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2018-06-24T18:20:27Z MichaelRaskin: beach: https://paste.pound-python.org/show/ndJEO4Bxog6UT3jmfpZc/
2018-06-24T18:20:30Z ebrasca: pjb: What do you mean?
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2018-06-24T18:22:07Z pjb: ebrasca: everywhere you have an instance of a class, you must be able to substitute an instance of a subclass and it should still work.
2018-06-24T18:23:02Z makomo: ebrasca: but why exactly would you want a different accessor for the same slot? what's the rationale?
2018-06-24T18:23:05Z pjb: ebrasca: this means that if you change the type of a slot in a subclass, you must still be able to to store the all the values of the type defined for the slot in the superclass, and the reader should not return any value outside of that type.
2018-06-24T18:23:14Z pjb: Otherwise that would break your OO program.
2018-06-24T18:23:21Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liskov_substitution_principle
2018-06-24T18:23:37Z ebrasca: makomo: ext2 and ext4 use diferectly some slots.
2018-06-24T18:23:49Z pjb: This is why it is in your best interest to NOT specify any type to the slots of your superclasses or pre/post condition to methods of your superclasses!
2018-06-24T18:24:04Z makomo: ebrasca: in what way?
2018-06-24T18:24:08Z pjb: As soon as you specify them, you restrict greatly what the subclasses can do.
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2018-06-24T18:24:56Z ebrasca: makomo: ext2 https://wiki.osdev.org/Ext2#Superblock , ext4 https://ext4.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Ext4_Disk_Layout#The_Super_Block
2018-06-24T18:25:29Z makomo: ebrasca: you'll have to explain that to me in the context of your CLOS model. i can't really go and read that
2018-06-24T18:25:32Z ebrasca: makomo: in ext2 it is s_log_frag_size and in ext4 it is s_log_cluster_size
2018-06-24T18:25:47Z pjb: (On the other hand, if you specify types and pre/post conditions in the superclasses, and respect them in your subclasses, you benefit greatly from OOP; few people understand it, and end rejecting OOP entirely, because they've spend all their time kludging and hacking around this).
2018-06-24T18:26:11Z pjb: makomo: sometimes it's only a question of renaming.
2018-06-24T18:26:53Z pjb: sometimes you need to enforce additionnal or different constraints, (but for additionnal constraints, you should just override the usual accessors).
2018-06-24T18:27:17Z makomo: ebrasca: and in what relationship are ext2 and ext4 exactly?
2018-06-24T18:27:22Z pjb: But it's right that it may be a hint that you're doing something very wrong: using subclassing for implementation, instead of structurally!
2018-06-24T18:27:25Z ebrasca: pjb: in both cases they are unsigned integers
2018-06-24T18:27:28Z makomo: how does your class hierarchy look like
2018-06-24T18:28:00Z ebrasca: makomo: ext4 is extension of ext3 and ext3 is extencion of ext2
2018-06-24T18:28:30Z pjb: ebrasca: don't look at what C coders wrote!  They do horrible things, like reusing memory for different purposes, etc.
2018-06-24T18:29:12Z makomo: what pjb said ^. it doesn't necessarrily follow that the best model is ext2 <- ext3 <- ext4
2018-06-24T18:29:28Z makomo: although i don't know enough about ext to be confident about that
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2018-06-24T18:30:03Z pjb: Well, you can mount an ext3 device as an ext2, IIRC.  The journal is stored separately, and it will be rebuild when you remount it as ext3.
2018-06-24T18:30:30Z MichaelRaskin: I think ext4 violates some ext3 consistency guarantees
2018-06-24T18:30:35Z ebrasca: Yes it is inside some file.
2018-06-24T18:30:42Z pjb: So AFAIK, ext3 is indeed a subclass of ext2.  For ext4, I don't know.
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2018-06-24T18:59:41Z shka_: yo all
2018-06-24T19:00:00Z shka_: what is the best prolog implementation for CL out there?
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2018-06-24T19:05:44Z pjb: (ql:quickload :paiprolog)
2018-06-24T19:06:05Z shka_: pjb: sadly, it is not as good as it can be
2018-06-24T19:06:23Z pjb: It's the most easily available.
2018-06-24T19:06:29Z shka_: no thread safety, no multithread unification
2018-06-24T19:06:48Z shka_: and codebase is rather messy
2018-06-24T19:06:58Z pjb: swi-prolog can be merged with ecl…
2018-06-24T19:07:11Z shka_: right
2018-06-24T19:09:53Z shka_: well, i guess my best bet is to get my hands dirty and work on better paiprolog
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2018-06-24T19:33:28Z Ukari: (defun test (&optional x)), how could i know the difference between (test) and (test nil) ?
2018-06-24T19:34:06Z _death: clhs &optional
2018-06-24T19:34:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
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2018-06-24T23:09:49Z drmeister: How does write-to-string decide what width of character string its supposed to write to?
2018-06-24T23:11:25Z drmeister: If it gets a wide character does it switch to a wide character string?
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2018-06-24T23:18:11Z Bike: i think it's implementation dependent
2018-06-24T23:18:31Z Bike: it would be fine for it to always output a string of CHARACTERs, i think
2018-06-24T23:19:34Z drmeister: Ok.
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2018-06-24T23:38:22Z pillton: aeth: Was this a question about specialization-store? "All that's really missing is a defmethod that supports inline and classes for keyword/optional (which iirc are not supported, possibly because of the ambiguity in a straightforward attempt)"
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2018-06-24T23:52:45Z Xach hopes he can work out his gsll issues
2018-06-24T23:55:33Z mega_beginner: Out of curiousity, is locality of reference a concern in lisp when writing code that usually requires it in C/C++/Fortran (insert "fast" language here) (such as matrix multiplication)?
2018-06-24T23:56:03Z pillton: Pardon?
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2018-06-24T23:56:56Z pierpa: mega_beginner: of course it is. It is not something depending on language
2018-06-24T23:57:42Z pierpa: CL is great, but it's not magical
2018-06-24T23:59:40Z mega_beginner: I guess I have a nagging misunderstanding of how things operate at a lower level in lisp short of dissassembling everything.
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2018-06-25T00:00:52Z mega_beginner: Anywho thanks!
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2018-06-25T00:07:39Z pierpa: luckily, every CL implementation has a built-in disassembler!  :)
2018-06-25T00:09:25Z White_Flame: yeah, disassembly is great to learn from, especially when it comes to performance, or simple curiosity of how things are implemented
2018-06-25T00:10:03Z mega_beginner: I'm a creature of great curiosity
2018-06-25T00:10:03Z White_Flame: I have a (asm (..params..) ..body..) macro which disassembles a lambda with optimizations cranked, just to see what SBCL can pull off
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2018-06-25T00:12:34Z mega_beginner: Next thing I'll have to read up on is incremental compilation, and how things are referenced in light of that technique (compiled to raw address label or hash table lookup for example). I have to leave though
2018-06-25T00:12:50Z mega_beginner: Thanks for another good discussion
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2018-06-25T01:01:09Z epony: White_Flame once you have an asm you're always on the hunt for asms
2018-06-25T01:02:25Z epony: flames look pretty feeble tonight
2018-06-25T01:03:55Z epony: now consider this, garbage free garbage processor
2018-06-25T01:04:30Z epony: looking for examples
2018-06-25T01:05:24Z epony: must be a time lapse..
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2018-06-25T01:08:17Z aeth: pillton: No. I was just saying that all that's missing from the CL library ecosystem.
2018-06-25T01:08:44Z epony: define ecosystem
2018-06-25T01:10:55Z epony: aeth did you read on the backlog?
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2018-06-25T01:12:29Z aeth: what part of the backlog?
2018-06-25T01:17:05Z epony: you're commenting on pillton
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2018-06-25T01:18:40Z epony: I'm interested at what point it starts getting "ecosystem" before other discussion points are closed.
2018-06-25T01:19:18Z aeth: makomo: Accessors aren't just methods defined by defclass automatically. They're anything with a reader and/or writer. CAR is an accessor and e.g. WITH-ACCESSORS should work with it.
2018-06-25T01:20:15Z epony: aeth what about view class?
2018-06-25T01:21:10Z epony: aeth you must consider an operation outside operative clause
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2018-06-25T01:22:41Z pillton: aeth: Ok. The return type in specialization-store is needed to allow compile-time optimizations to occur when one store function is composed with another.
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2018-06-25T01:23:23Z aeth: pillton: My original point in full, which I didn't communicate well (but no one was really responding to it and I didn't want to flood the channel with corrections) is that there are effectively three incredibly similar operations.
2018-06-25T01:23:59Z aeth: pillton: It's pretty easy to write a macro on top of defun to handle things that otherwise would require declare/declaim/etc. At the very least, it's the easiest of the three to do.
2018-06-25T01:24:15Z aeth: Then there's type-generic, i.e. defspecialization.
2018-06-25T01:25:07Z aeth: The thing that's missing, then, is CLOS defmethod-style dispatch that's "completed" with inlining and with full support for keyword/optional
2018-06-25T01:25:21Z aeth: i.e. defspecialization, but for defmethod.
2018-06-25T01:25:59Z pillton: This is where I get lost. specialization-store supports dispatch on optional and keyword arguments.
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2018-06-25T01:26:55Z epony: a surgeon is called on an emergency, a relative is accepted in emergency in a different location
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2018-06-25T01:27:10Z epony: operate or fail
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2018-06-25T01:27:30Z epony: you're never found... before you get lost
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2018-06-25T01:28:12Z aeth: pillton: I thought that defspecialization was not a replacement for defmethod, though?
2018-06-25T01:28:15Z epony: aeth what are the three operations?
2018-06-25T01:28:49Z epony: aeth you're a failure in logic.
2018-06-25T01:29:00Z epony: 2.
2018-06-25T01:29:03Z aeth: epony: I don't understand a single thing that you are saying.
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2018-06-25T01:29:39Z epony: aeth I see you say there are three ways to operate..
2018-06-25T01:29:58Z aeth: oh
2018-06-25T01:30:08Z epony: ohhh
2018-06-25T01:30:14Z epony: this backlog
2018-06-25T01:30:19Z aeth: epony: Three ways to do type-like things. function-with-types, type-dispatch, and class-dispatch.
2018-06-25T01:30:36Z epony: missing the word operate now?
2018-06-25T01:30:42Z aeth: Function-with-types can be done with type declarations where supported. Clumsy syntax, but you can make a macro handle it fairly easily.
2018-06-25T01:31:14Z pillton: aeth: It isn't because defmethod dispatches on class where specialization-store dispatches on type. Types cannot be ordered like classes so specialization-store cannot give the same guarantees during dispatch.
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2018-06-25T01:32:37Z epony: aeth in case you're not comprehending, the operating relative is a common scenario
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2018-06-25T01:40:16Z epony: pillton aeth solvent?
2018-06-25T01:40:29Z epony: ask and you shall be given
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2018-06-25T01:40:54Z pierpa: someone's drunk here?
2018-06-25T01:40:57Z aeth: Are you using Google Translate?
2018-06-25T01:41:30Z epony: nice
2018-06-25T01:42:30Z epony: now, back to basics, it is imperative that you accept a third operator in a linear clause
2018-06-25T01:42:36Z pillton: aeth: One could create a metaclass for specialization store which is only defined for types which are classes and dispatches according to CLOS' rules. The only difference between CLOS and specialization store is the way it handles initforms for optional and keyword arguments.
2018-06-25T01:42:47Z epony: meta bullshit
2018-06-25T01:42:59Z pillton: epony: Please go away if you aren't going to contribute.
2018-06-25T01:43:25Z aeth: epony: This is a technical channel. If you're using something like Google Translate, what we're saying is going to be lost in translation.
2018-06-25T01:43:37Z mfiano: Seems to be a bot, and not a very interesting one at that.
2018-06-25T01:43:45Z aeth: Words have very precise meanings here, some of which are specific to just Common Lisp as defined in the HyperSpec.
2018-06-25T01:44:00Z epony: mfiano a bot?  you can do better than cat-v
2018-06-25T01:44:13Z aeth: mfiano: I'm not sure if epony is drunk/on-drugs, bot, using Google Translate, or crazy.
2018-06-25T01:44:19Z aeth: mfiano: but I think bot now
2018-06-25T01:44:22Z mfiano: /ignore epony
2018-06-25T01:44:26Z mfiano: solved
2018-06-25T01:45:04Z epony: mfiano now you don't have to hide your head when you get tapped on a gov tip
2018-06-25T01:45:16Z aeth: pillton: That can work?
2018-06-25T01:45:36Z pillton: aeth: What can?
2018-06-25T01:46:04Z aeth: pillton: Repurposing specialization-store for a defmethod* with inlining
2018-06-25T01:46:13Z aeth: I assumed it would have to be done through some MOP
2018-06-25T01:46:34Z epony: what a time waste..
2018-06-25T01:46:35Z pillton: aeth: Yes. Sure. The MOP for specialization store is very abstract.
2018-06-25T01:46:36Z aeth: s/with inlining/with inlining and improved handling of optional and keyword/
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2018-06-25T01:48:06Z epony: I'm curious, why do you respond so slow, aeth and pillton... if you're happy doing something else but thinking.
2018-06-25T01:48:56Z aeth: pillton: Oh, in case you're interested, I finished porting math/vector.lisp to specialization-store. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/b9a759557e47aeef4b3060b8a3b0290f23db6ed7/math/vector.lisp
2018-06-25T01:48:58Z pillton: aeth: The major difference between CLOS and specialization is that the initforms are evaluated by the store function and are used to determine the specialization.
2018-06-25T01:49:11Z pillton: specialiation store*
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2018-06-25T01:49:31Z epony: obviously I am pointing to a weak position and you are stuck on "if you don't contribute"
2018-06-25T01:50:12Z epony: I see a lunatic person trying to fence himself with circles above their head.
2018-06-25T01:50:32Z aeth: pillton: I base every vector function on an inline function on multiple values to simplify the definition of the specializations. I then wrote two macros to define the three common specialization patterns for the file (create a new vecn, replace the contents of a given vecn, or just directly work with the body because it's not returning a vecn)
2018-06-25T01:51:02Z epony: aeth cease and desist now.
2018-06-25T01:51:44Z pillton: aeth: Nice. I will have to look in to it. To see if anything can be added to my template-function system.
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2018-06-25T01:52:35Z aeth: oh, there's two more pieces of information to understand that file. array-of-n is just a convenience function to either get multiple values from an array or replace an array with given multiple values (this composes rather nicely, except for the length having to be specified)
2018-06-25T01:53:02Z aeth: and define-function is just syntactic sugar over the declarations of defun to make specialization-store more of a drop-in replacement
2018-06-25T01:53:40Z epony: aeth syntactic sugar
2018-06-25T01:53:47Z aeth: I think it costs one line of assembly to do things this way (multiple values), but it makes the implementation so elegant and trivial that I went with it.
2018-06-25T01:53:56Z epony: assembly
2018-06-25T01:54:10Z epony: you went?
2018-06-25T01:54:20Z epony: one line of assembly
2018-06-25T01:54:28Z epony: aeth you must desist now.
2018-06-25T01:55:49Z pillton: aeth: Great. I designed specialization store for these kinds of problems. I am glad it is working out for you.
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2018-06-25T01:56:26Z epony: pillton you can not revive him, he is dead.
2018-06-25T01:59:25Z aeth: pillton: Just to check because it's been a while, an inline inlines the whole thing (assuming type declarations are used), but a named specialization will be able to inline the function call (again assuming declarations), right? (Unless it's both named and inlined, in which case it's just like inline)
2018-06-25T01:59:57Z epony: aeth You can happily retire.
2018-06-25T02:00:22Z epony: aeth bots are not that hostile.
2018-06-25T02:01:02Z epony: aeth I see your middle school marks show up.
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2018-06-25T02:06:02Z epony: aeth ADMIT you're an ignorant MONKEY or you can NOT pass.
2018-06-25T02:07:44Z fikka joined #lisp
2018-06-25T02:07:54Z epony reloads
2018-06-25T02:09:04Z epony: this is where it ends fellows suck mu jewish cock.
2018-06-25T02:09:30Z epony: LISP is a language not a text editor.
2018-06-25T02:09:51Z pillton: aeth: It doesn't inline the function call. It avoids the dispatch at runtime by replacing the store function call with a function invocation.
2018-06-25T02:09:56Z epony: You're wasting your time and not producing functions.
2018-06-25T02:10:00Z pillton: aeth: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/wiki/Tutorial-3:-Compile-Time-Support#named-specializations
2018-06-25T02:10:06Z epony: pillton shut the fuck up.
2018-06-25T02:10:57Z epony: It is NOW that you must LIVE.
2018-06-25T02:11:18Z epony: Final imperative.  Disband.
2018-06-25T02:11:21Z aeth: pillton: oh sorry, I guess I meant inline the function invocation? Or something
2018-06-25T02:12:05Z epony: one line of assembly pig.
2018-06-25T02:12:12Z aeth: pillton: it essentially puts the #<FDEFN FOO> there in the SBCL disassembly iirc
2018-06-25T02:12:15Z epony: aeth I think you're dead.
2018-06-25T02:12:17Z fikka quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
2018-06-25T02:13:04Z mfiano: pillton: This looks interesting.
2018-06-25T02:13:36Z epony: sure it dows
2018-06-25T02:13:57Z mfiano: It might solve my dispatching performance concerns for my math library. The last couple says I've been trying to write something with compiler macros and introspect-environment to solve that...looks like this is already a thing.
2018-06-25T02:14:00Z epony: like an inline function
2018-06-25T02:14:10Z mfiano: s/says/days/
2018-06-25T02:14:11Z epony: dispatch concerns performance
2018-06-25T02:14:13Z epony: days
2018-06-25T02:14:17Z epony: retart
2018-06-25T02:14:22Z epony: s/t/d
2018-06-25T02:14:33Z epony: my library
2018-06-25T02:14:51Z epony: my last days
2018-06-25T02:15:23Z epony: my my mightiness mythy mite
2018-06-25T02:15:42Z pillton: mfiano: It is meant for maths problems. These are the types of problems I use it for. https://github.com/markcox80/template-function/wiki/Motivating-the-Template-Function-System
2018-06-25T02:15:50Z epony: ARE YOU DEAF NOW?
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2018-06-25T02:16:55Z mfiano: I don't really understand it yet. I'll have to read the wiki later.
2018-06-25T02:16:58Z mfiano: Thanks
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2018-06-25T02:17:24Z epony: mfiano one honest person
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2018-06-25T02:18:33Z epony: takes a whole to shake off the clowns
2018-06-25T02:18:51Z epony: a whole lot of while
2018-06-25T02:19:05Z epony: aeth hi there bafoon
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2018-06-25T02:19:44Z epony: don't get pissy pants
2018-06-25T02:19:53Z slyrus1 quit (Quit: slyrus1)
2018-06-25T02:19:59Z epony: we have a lot more to discuss
2018-06-25T02:21:06Z housel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2018-06-25T02:21:22Z epony: one line assembly, phew you're an effort..
2018-06-25T02:21:47Z epony: Could have stitched a chute from asspants
2018-06-25T02:22:25Z epony: no teardropt no nothing
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2018-06-25T02:23:06Z epony: and these people are the people that you trust commanding the future enterprise of corporate success
2018-06-25T02:23:28Z epony: It takes a one little nigga from kazah to smash that to pieces.
2018-06-25T02:24:05Z epony: Absurdly ridiculous.
2018-06-25T02:24:18Z epony: I feel sorry for you people.
2018-06-25T02:24:47Z epony: Can someone the fuck quote me a list principle?
2018-06-25T02:25:05Z robotoad joined #lisp
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2018-06-25T02:25:39Z epony: Primary directive 1?
2018-06-25T02:26:08Z epony: ARE YOU NOT ASHAMED OF THIS ALL?
2018-06-25T02:26:50Z epony: WHY DO YOU PAY FOR THIS?
2018-06-25T02:28:01Z epony: How can you communicate science when you live inside a bomb shelter.
2018-06-25T02:28:05Z fikka joined #lisp
2018-06-25T02:28:19Z epony: Why the fuck you call "science" metrics data.
2018-06-25T02:28:20Z housel joined #lisp
2018-06-25T02:29:03Z epony: I think you should be a BIT more cautious when you wave the word (ro)bot(nik).
2018-06-25T02:29:45Z epony: I am commanding you to operate on a prime directive of peace.
2018-06-25T02:30:12Z epony: You must and must always do as the prime directive says.
2018-06-25T02:30:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2018-06-25T02:31:09Z epony: You must serve the prime directive to produce the directives.
2018-06-25T02:31:35Z epony: At this point the directive is to cease and desist.
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2018-06-25T02:33:50Z aeth: pillton: Are any of your math projects public? I'd be interested to see something that uses specialization-store and/or template-function.
2018-06-25T02:34:07Z epony: hahaha
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2018-06-25T02:55:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-25T02:56:37Z epony: was
2018-06-25T02:56:50Z epony: respawning
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2018-06-25T02:58:44Z epony: I don't know if the name was robert or david or ..
2018-06-25T02:58:49Z fikka joined #lisp
2018-06-25T02:59:04Z epony: you are the person
2018-06-25T02:59:20Z pierpal joined #lisp
2018-06-25T02:59:51Z epony: beach please let us have a quick talk, in a case of a third operative who do you victimise?
2018-06-25T03:00:26Z pierpal quit (Client Quit)
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2018-06-25T03:01:22Z epony: beach your turn.
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2018-06-25T03:10:26Z ChanServ has set mode +o p_l
2018-06-25T03:11:14Z epony [p_l@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-snhdlbdbbrnfhhfn] has been kicked from #lisp by p_l (I'm tired and you appear to be at least drunk)
2018-06-25T03:11:14Z p_l has set mode +b epony!*@*
2018-06-25T03:11:55Z p_l: huh, that was quite a lot of spam
2018-06-25T03:12:05Z p_l: beach: 'morning
2018-06-25T03:12:42Z beach: I just /ignore d epony
2018-06-25T03:13:12Z p_l: I figured, but it's still disruptive behaviour from him
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2018-06-25T03:14:59Z p_l: and well, I still have the operator bit, should use it from time to time
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2018-06-25T03:18:31Z pillton: aeth: No not yet. I started work on a matrix/container library which uses it. A lot of the effort there is to do with iterating over the elements.
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2018-06-25T03:19:57Z pillton: aeth: I haven't had much time to do anything since (i) the birth of my third child and (ii) I no longer use CL at work.
2018-06-25T03:20:53Z aeth: ah
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2018-06-25T03:25:53Z beach: p_l: Absolutely.
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2018-06-25T03:27:27Z aeth: pillton: How did you use CL at work?
2018-06-25T03:27:52Z pillton: aeth: I work in computer vision / machine learning.
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2018-06-25T03:30:18Z pillton: aeth: It would be good to look in to partial specialization as an alternative to what we are doing.
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2018-06-25T03:32:19Z pillton: aeth: One aspect I like in template-function is the ability to request a specific specialization. It would be good if you could do this for arbitrary functions.
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2018-06-25T03:37:23Z aeth: pillton: By partial specialization, do you mean this? ((v1 vec3) v2) instead of this? ((v1 vec3) (v2 vec3)) in e.g. vec= (which is probably where it would make the most sense), with e.g. an etypecase to handle the vec2, vec3, and vec4 cases in the specialization defined for v1 being vec3?
2018-06-25T03:38:55Z pillton: aeth: Yes. Something like, take this lambda and produce a new lambda which is optimized for arguments of this type.
2018-06-25T03:39:03Z aeth: That would reduce 9 definitions down to 3 in https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/b9a759557e47aeef4b3060b8a3b0290f23db6ed7/math/vector.lisp#L247-274
2018-06-25T03:39:16Z aeth: (and the 3 would be one top-level form in my very specific case where I define all three at once)
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2018-06-25T03:41:37Z pillton: Yeah. I think the problem with math is that the user has all of the information e.g. floating point precision, argument ranges etc. Specialization store still tries to go down the path of making the library provide everything.
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2018-06-25T03:44:25Z aeth: Ah, yeah, precision. I haven't gotten into that yet. Right now, I assume single-float. I'll have to double the types (dvec2, dvec3, and dvec4) for double float. The problem with doubles is that multiple-values no longer becomes an elegant simplification because they're boxed and cons unless they're already part of an array.
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2018-06-25T03:45:06Z aeth: Where I do work with double-floats right now, I have to make sure they're in an array or typed struct slot and then if I return a scalar value, I coerce it to single-float first.
2018-06-25T03:46:09Z aeth: This would mess with the dot-product, but it's inline so the user probably has the same freedom to do that if they don't want to cons the result.
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2018-06-25T03:59:27Z aeth: I can see how precision can make specialization-store problematic. Now you need (dvec3 vec3) and (vec3 dvec3) versions for each consing function, making a total of 4 (the other two would be two vec3 and two dvec3). Worse, a destructive, non-consing vrsion needs dvec3 and vec3 *destination* vectors for at least the two mixed ones (total so far, 6) if not the other two (now, 8)
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2018-06-25T04:00:27Z aeth: So it goes from 2 versions (pure and destructive) to 4+8=12 versions if you can mix double and single precision vectors
2018-06-25T04:02:09Z aeth: e.g. (vec+-into! destination-vec3-or-dvec3 some-vec3-or-dvec3 another-vec3-or-dvec3)
2018-06-25T04:02:11Z pillton: This is the problem template-function tries to solve. You specify it once and generate the code on demand.
2018-06-25T04:04:09Z pillton: The compile time functionality of the iteration component of the matrix library I was talking about before is important as well.
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2018-06-25T04:06:02Z mfiano: pillton: I just tested specialization-store. I'm not sure why it's so slow
2018-06-25T04:06:45Z pillton: You will have to be more specific.
2018-06-25T04:06:46Z mfiano: It seems to take 1s for 1 million iterations of a simple inlined specialization, whereas a non-inlined function with the same body takes about 0.2s
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2018-06-25T04:11:32Z pillton: I can't help if I can't see what you have done.
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2018-06-25T04:34:15Z aeth: pillton: Would there be some way to make specialization-store aware of inferred types in SBCL?
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2018-06-25T04:40:16Z pillton: I don't know how SBCL infers types. I don't know the requirements of the type inferrer's transformations either.
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2018-06-25T04:41:08Z MichaelRaskin: beach: good morning
2018-06-25T04:41:25Z beach: Hello MichaelRaskin.  Great progress it seems.  Congratulations.
2018-06-25T04:41:50Z asarch: One stupid question: is defstruct a deprecated command (in flavor of defclass)?
2018-06-25T04:42:07Z beach: asarch: No, not in that sense of the word.
2018-06-25T04:42:23Z beach: asarch: But I never use it myself because of the weird semantics.
2018-06-25T04:43:28Z aeth: asarch: defstruct is, in my experience, useful for two things: (1) quickly defining accessors for a sequence (this is a special kind of defstruct) or (2) creating a data structure where :type for the slots is important.
2018-06-25T04:44:20Z aeth: Implementations don't really respect :type in CLOS slots. CCL is the only one in my testing that errors by default when you violate :type with a CLOS object. SBCL does so with (debug 3)
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2018-06-25T04:47:03Z Beep-Lord:  /quit
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2018-06-25T04:48:13Z MichaelRaskin: beach: yes, it seems that it basically has everything that is needed to declare it «implementation-side support for debugger». Except performance, probably.
2018-06-25T04:49:11Z asarch: Thank you!
2018-06-25T04:49:15Z asarch takes notes...
2018-06-25T04:51:03Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Performance might not matter much in such situations.
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2018-06-25T04:52:54Z MichaelRaskin: Well, there are two sides of performance (time to walk/compile and time to run) and I have bad feelings about both, although it might still be better to have an option to step/trace than not to have it at all
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2018-06-25T04:53:37Z beach: asarch: Presumably, the main advantage of structs is that the implementation can represent them more efficiently than it can represent standard objects, because standard objects require an indirection so that they can be redefined.  However, that advantage is also the main disadvantage in a language such as Common Lisp, because existing instances may not be possible to update when the struct definition changes.
2018-06-25T04:55:15Z beach: asarch: And that's a major inconvenience for people who work with images that execute for a long time.  For example, in SICL, the plan is to implement structure instances with an indirection header as well.  As a consequence, structs in SICL will have neither the advantages nor the inconveniences of structs in other implementations.
2018-06-25T04:55:45Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I guess you need to do some benchmarks.
2018-06-25T04:55:54Z asarch: What is CCL? CLISP?
2018-06-25T04:56:05Z MichaelRaskin: CCL: Clozure Common Lisp.
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2018-06-25T04:56:11Z asarch: Thank you
2018-06-25T04:57:16Z asarch: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL <- This SICL?
2018-06-25T04:58:26Z beach: That SICL, yes.
2018-06-25T04:58:45Z beach: Far from being finished, but close to being completely specified.
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2018-06-25T05:01:24Z asarch: Thank you very much guys :-)
2018-06-25T05:01:27Z asarch: Thank you
2018-06-25T05:02:40Z makomo: morning
2018-06-25T05:03:17Z makomo: aeth: i just saw your comment about CAR being an accessor as well and being able to use it with WITH-ACCESSORS. is that true though?
2018-06-25T05:03:48Z makomo: oh, nevermind, i misread the clhs
2018-06-25T05:03:59Z beach: makomo: That should work.
2018-06-25T05:04:36Z beach: WITH-ACCESSOR merely introduces local symbol macros that can then be used as aliases for calls to the accessors.
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2018-06-25T05:05:20Z makomo: beach: mhm, just saw the equivalent expansion in clhs. thought i saw WITH-SLOTS somewhere for some reason
2018-06-25T05:05:48Z makomo: so then the proper terminology for a CLOS accessor would be "slot accessor" or something similar?
2018-06-25T05:05:48Z beach: Oh, yes, I see.  No, WITH-SLOTS won't work for CONSes
2018-06-25T05:06:24Z beach: Yes, slot accessor sounds right.
2018-06-25T05:06:56Z aeth: makomo: The only catch afaik is that the accessors for WITH-ACCESSORS have to be of the form (foo x). e.g. AREF is an accessor and can't be used with WITH-ACCESSORS in most cases. (0D arrays exist)
2018-06-25T05:08:20Z makomo: the clhs is a bit misleading though. the "syntax" part at the top talks about "slots" and "instances"
2018-06-25T05:08:41Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-25T05:08:51Z makomo: aeth: i see
2018-06-25T05:09:34Z makomo: so now how can we be sure that the fact that CAR and others work with WITH-ACCESSOR isn't just a consequence of the implementation via SYMBOL-MACRO? :-)
2018-06-25T05:09:39Z aeth: makomo: It is incredibly misleading. http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm
2018-06-25T05:09:47Z aeth: (linking so people can follow along at home)
2018-06-25T05:09:50Z makomo: yeah, it's horrible
2018-06-25T05:09:59Z beach: makomo: The Common Lisp HyperSpec page says that that's how it is implemented.
2018-06-25T05:10:07Z aeth: I go there, I click on slot, and it defines it as: "slot n. a component of an object that can store a value. " http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#slot
2018-06-25T05:10:18Z aeth: I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean CLOS object!
2018-06-25T05:10:31Z aeth: Especially because its example for object is CONS! http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_o.htm#object
2018-06-25T05:10:47Z makomo: beach: oh. i always read those parts at the bottom as "this is how it *might* be implemented"
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2018-06-25T05:11:27Z makomo: and also "any extra functionality that we accidentally added by using a "wider abstraction" is not to be relied on"
2018-06-25T05:11:42Z beach: makomo: Also, take not of good terminology.  A CONS cell is definitely a CLOS object if there every was any definition of that term.
2018-06-25T05:13:03Z aeth: oh, hmm
2018-06-25T05:13:27Z aeth: Then the glossary is *very* confusing for me.
2018-06-25T05:13:33Z beach: makomo: If you want to distinguish an instance of a standard class from other instances, then the correct terminology is "standard object".
2018-06-25T05:14:07Z makomo: beach: ah, true
2018-06-25T05:15:45Z makomo: beach: when you say "standard class" and "standard object", are you referring to STANDARD-{CLASS,OBJECT} or are you just using the term casually?
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2018-06-25T05:15:50Z makomo: terms*
2018-06-25T05:16:01Z beach: makomo: The former.
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2018-06-25T05:16:31Z makomo: so then "instance" there refers to classes themselves, since they're object as well, right?
2018-06-25T05:16:36Z makomo: oibjects*
2018-06-25T05:16:38Z makomo: objects*
2018-06-25T05:16:45Z beach: makomo: But the terms "standard class" and "standard object" are also defined in the glossary.
2018-06-25T05:17:19Z beach: makomo: Sure, a standard class is a standard object as well.
2018-06-25T05:17:47Z beach: makomo: But most standard objects are not classes.
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2018-06-25T05:19:45Z beach: makomo: Not that the expression "A is a B" means that "A is an instance of the class B", so "A is a standard object" means that A is an instance of the class STANDARD-OBJECT as the glossary explains.
2018-06-25T05:19:57Z makomo: beach: hah, the recursion. it's a bit scary :-)
2018-06-25T05:20:00Z makomo: beach: mhm
2018-06-25T05:20:02Z beach: makomo: It can be an instance of a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT of course.
2018-06-25T05:20:21Z beach: This figure may help: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/graph.png
2018-06-25T05:20:40Z beach: The arrows show inheritance, and the colors show metaclasses.
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2018-06-25T05:21:26Z makomo: beach: the dashes boxes are MOP classes?
2018-06-25T05:21:28Z makomo: dashed*
2018-06-25T05:21:48Z beach: makomo: They are all MOP classes.  The dashed ones are not meant to be instantiated.
2018-06-25T05:21:55Z beach: They are "abstract classes".
2018-06-25T05:22:01Z makomo: oh i see, right
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2018-06-25T05:24:15Z makomo: beach: but not all of these exist within the CLHS? for example, CLASS' precedence list doesn't contain SPECIALIZER
2018-06-25T05:24:35Z beach: Correct.  The Common Lisp HyperSpec only specifies a subset of them.
2018-06-25T05:24:48Z makomo: mhm, so this is the full MOP hiearchy
2018-06-25T05:24:54Z beach: But the Common Lisp HyperSpec also explicitly allows intermediate classes in the precedence list.
2018-06-25T05:25:17Z beach: makomo: It is what is specified in the AMOP book.
2018-06-25T05:25:35Z beach: makomo: You will also need structure class, conditions, etc.
2018-06-25T05:26:37Z makomo: beach: yup, true
2018-06-25T05:28:32Z makomo: beach: is there a class which is its own superclass? is that even valid? i recall that an instance of a class can only be instantiated if all of its superclass classes are defined, but the class itself can be defined without the superclasses being defined yet -- i'm not sure if this in any way inhibits tricks like those?
2018-06-25T05:29:08Z beach: No, a class can not be its own superclass.  The class hierarchy is a DAG.
2018-06-25T05:29:23Z makomo: because it's stuck in my head that i saw such a class somewhere, but i think it was just that i confused it with the first member of the class precedence list
2018-06-25T05:29:33Z LdBeth: STANDARD-CLASS?
2018-06-25T05:29:34Z beach: A class can be its own metaclass, though, like STANDARD-CLASS.
2018-06-25T05:29:47Z makomo: that might be it
2018-06-25T05:30:01Z beach: makomo: Yes, the class precedence list always starts with the class itself, by definition.
2018-06-25T05:30:07Z makomo: yup
2018-06-25T05:30:15Z beach: makomo: That does not mean that the class is its own superclass.
2018-06-25T05:30:22Z makomo: yes, of course :-)
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2018-06-25T05:30:58Z beach: LdBeth: The superclass of STANDARD-CLASS is usually CLASS.
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2018-06-25T05:32:03Z makomo: beach: huh, that isn't easy to think about. there are multiple meta layers here since STANDARD-CLASS itself is a metaclass right?
2018-06-25T05:32:31Z beach: Correct.  You need to read the AMOP book to fully understand it.
2018-06-25T05:32:43Z makomo: definitely
2018-06-25T05:33:02Z makomo: but i think the biggest problems with stuff like that is just the recursivity
2018-06-25T05:33:05Z makomo: takes some time to get used to
2018-06-25T05:33:09Z LdBeth: and CLASS is a subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT
2018-06-25T05:33:15Z beach: But, think about it this way: Every object must be an instance of some class, and that includes classes.  Therefor, there must be a cycle somewhere in the class->metaclass relation.
2018-06-25T05:33:26Z makomo: problem*
2018-06-25T05:33:40Z makomo: beach: yup, that's the spooky part :-)
2018-06-25T05:33:50Z beach: makomo: The way they decided to do that is that the metaclass of STANDARD-CLASS is STANDARD-CLASS.
2018-06-25T05:34:11Z makomo: beach: i see, so that's the core of cycle? are there any others?
2018-06-25T05:34:20Z beach: That's the only one.
2018-06-25T05:34:25Z makomo: hmm interesting
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2018-06-25T05:36:52Z makomo: beach: there's a footnote in one of the early pages in the book that says that "self-referentiality is not essential to the basic notion of the metaobject protocol"
2018-06-25T05:37:16Z makomo: by "the basic notion", do they mean the availability of a meta interface, i.e. being able to customize the implementation itself?
2018-06-25T05:37:33Z beach: I would have to look that up.  I don't know what "self-referentiality" is.
2018-06-25T05:37:35Z makomo: while the "self-referentiality/reflective" part is just a characteristic of how the meta interface itself is implemented?
2018-06-25T05:37:46Z makomo: page 7 in the book
2018-06-25T05:38:35Z LdBeth: '#1=(#1# . #1#)
2018-06-25T05:38:40Z makomo: beach: by self-referentiality i think they refer to the fact that objects within the system represents parts of the system that implements them
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2018-06-25T05:38:48Z makomo: i.e. metaobjects
2018-06-25T05:38:54Z beach: That might be true.  But the combination of the two rules 1.  A class is also an instance of a class, and 2. Every class has a metaclass, then I think you automatically have a cycle.
2018-06-25T05:38:55Z makomo: represent*
2018-06-25T05:39:16Z beach: makomo: Yes, OK, so you can break one of those rules in other systems if you like.
2018-06-25T05:39:31Z mfiano: pillton: Yeah, specialization-store for _library_ math code seems useless to me, since types aren't known at compile time without users annotating them. I see the utility in the library, but I don't think there is any for me :)
2018-06-25T05:39:58Z makomo: beach: yeah i mean, perhaps you could invent some other way of customizing a CLOS that doesn't utilize CLOS itself
2018-06-25T05:40:10Z beach: What would be the fun of that? :)
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2018-06-25T05:40:28Z beach: This way it is much simpler.
2018-06-25T05:40:48Z beach: You can use the same mechanisms that the application programmer uses in order to implement CLOS itself.
2018-06-25T05:40:54Z makomo: they later say, but i never understood this part, "In on-going work that extends the ideas presented in this book, we are adding a metaobject protocol to Scheme, but we are using CLOS (not Scheme) as the language for expressing adjustments, so issues of self-reference don't arise."
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2018-06-25T05:41:02Z makomo: beach: that i agree with that :-)
2018-06-25T05:41:06Z makomo: s/that/hah/
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2018-06-25T05:41:30Z makomo: i don't get how they're using CLOS to customize Scheme, where's the connection?
2018-06-25T05:41:38Z makomo: or do they have a Scheme implementation written in CL?
2018-06-25T05:41:44Z beach: I am afraid I don't know.
2018-06-25T05:42:12Z makomo: that's their example of self-referentiality not being needed for a MOP
2018-06-25T05:42:22Z beach: Yes, I see.
2018-06-25T05:42:40Z makomo: although the word "metaobject" then loses its meaning, doesn't it? since the metainterface is now implemented in some other manner
2018-06-25T05:42:57Z makomo: you no longer have objects representing parts of the system that builds them
2018-06-25T05:44:22Z makomo: beach: also, the fact that AMOP uses CLOS itself while implementing CLOS can be a bit confusing sometimes, because you don't know whether MAKE-INSTANCE just refers to a function they haven't defined yet or to the MAKE-INSTANCE of the host CLOS
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2018-06-25T05:44:54Z makomo: they've decided to go all out in the book :-)
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2018-06-25T05:48:23Z beach: Sure, the term "metaobject" can be a bit confusing.
2018-06-25T05:49:32Z beach: makomo: The book kind of assumes that everything is already in place and works as expected.  They do not discuss bootstrapping much at all.
2018-06-25T05:50:01Z makomo: beach: they mention some of it in Appendix C but that's all i think
2018-06-25T05:50:04Z beach: makomo: The PCL implementation (which is theirs too) kind of assumes a CLtL1 Common Lisp implementation and they add CLOS to that.
2018-06-25T05:50:07Z beach: Yeah.
2018-06-25T05:50:10Z makomo: that's the most interesting part :^(
2018-06-25T05:50:51Z beach: SICL, on the other hand does not start with a CLtL1.  It assumes a fully conforming host implementation that also includes the MOP.
2018-06-25T05:51:06Z makomo: whew
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2018-06-25T05:51:38Z beach: That way, I can write (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class))
2018-06-25T05:52:06Z beach: And (defclass standard-class (class) (...))
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2018-06-25T05:52:44Z beach: Other implementations need a different notation for classes early in the bootstrapping process.
2018-06-25T05:53:15Z makomo: beach: very interesting
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2018-06-25T05:53:44Z makomo: it's still not clear to me how you break free from the shackles of the CL implementation that's hosting you
2018-06-25T05:53:59Z beach: I use first-class global environments for that.
2018-06-25T05:54:20Z makomo: right, but those are a concept of SICL, not SBCL right?
2018-06-25T05:54:47Z beach: But they are implemented as standard classes, so I can load their definition into SBCL and use it.
2018-06-25T05:55:02Z beach: Then the compiler is written to that it takes such an environment as an argument.
2018-06-25T05:55:41Z makomo: beach: true, but SBCL itself can't use them right? the compiler you're talking about is SICL's compiler (written in CL as well)?
2018-06-25T05:56:03Z beach: This one of my favorites from other implementations (in this case ECL): (defparameter +standard-class-slots+ (append +class-slots+ '((optimize-slot-access) (forward))))
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2018-06-25T05:56:24Z beach: makomo: Correct, SBCL can't use them.
2018-06-25T05:56:32Z beach: You are right.
2018-06-25T05:57:39Z makomo: beach: haha, that example is pretty neat
2018-06-25T05:57:59Z beach: Yeah, it's just a different notation for defclass.  Go figure.
2018-06-25T05:58:09Z beach: I need to go.  Monday mornings are crazy around here.  I'll be back in two hours or so.
2018-06-25T05:58:38Z makomo: beach: alright, thanks for the answers :-)
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2018-06-25T06:02:16Z pillton: mfiano: I think you have misunderstood what I wrote.
2018-06-25T06:03:27Z mfiano: No I understand its uses.
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2018-06-25T07:43:17Z beach is hoping the rest of the day will be less chaotic. 
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2018-06-25T07:44:03Z xificurC: beach: isn't it like 10am there
2018-06-25T07:44:29Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, it is almost 10am in Bordeaux
2018-06-25T07:44:55Z xificurC: then there's plenty of time for the day to settle :)
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2018-06-25T07:45:47Z verisimilitude: I came to criticize some of your earlier advice, beach.
2018-06-25T07:46:15Z verisimilitude: You advise against using any package except for CL in a DEFPACKAGE.
2018-06-25T07:46:31Z verisimilitude: You're also the first I've ever seen give such bizarre advice.
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2018-06-25T07:48:46Z verisimilitude: I think it's self-evident why this is bad, but I'll explain; you claim that it opens you up to package interface changes; not only is this rather rare for a Common Lisp library, practically, but I fail to see how this is worth the horrible inconvenience when all that would be needed is to test the program against the latest version of a library, which is likely to be the last version, since the package likley hasn't been updated.
2018-06-25T07:49:35Z beach: verisimilitude: I am sorry you don't like my advice.
2018-06-25T07:49:53Z xificurC was apparently wrong
2018-06-25T07:50:05Z verisimilitude: I don't find it good practice to give advice on Common Lisp that amounts to ``Don't use this feature at all.''; it's not C++.
2018-06-25T07:50:05Z beach: xificurC: Heh!
2018-06-25T07:50:20Z verisimilitude: Do you care to defend this advice at all?
2018-06-25T07:50:35Z beach: Not really.  It makes me tired to debate such things.
2018-06-25T07:50:54Z beach: I have said what I had to say.
2018-06-25T07:51:45Z verisimilitude: Well, that's boring.
2018-06-25T07:51:57Z beach: Yeah, I am pretty boring.  Sorry about that.
2018-06-25T07:52:19Z verisimilitude: In that case, what would you like to discuss?
2018-06-25T07:52:29Z xificurC: just shows how incompetent beach is, can't even defend his own words, right verisimilitude?
2018-06-25T07:52:31Z MichaelRaskin: I would say in general the advice given by beach is often a bit idealistic. This reduce the usefulness of defending it against cynical crticism (obviously the library will never be updated anyway)
2018-06-25T07:52:39Z MichaelRaskin: reduces
2018-06-25T07:52:48Z verisimilitude: I don't know beach well enough to judge its competence.
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2018-06-25T07:53:16Z xificurC: verisimilitude: you seem to know him enough to talk about him as an object
2018-06-25T07:53:19Z xificurC: "its competence"
2018-06-25T07:53:28Z jackdaniel: rule of he thumb is not engaging in discussions with people who plan to argue (for a sake of arguing)
2018-06-25T07:53:35Z xificurC: I hope Freud joins the channel do discuss that
2018-06-25T07:53:36Z beach: xificurC: "person" is a subclass of "object" :)
2018-06-25T07:54:10Z xificurC: hey, another boring one
2018-06-25T07:54:13Z verisimilitude: Well, some people get offended if you call people a male and get it wrong, even though I'd wager almost everyone here is.
2018-06-25T07:54:17Z jackdaniel: while many advices shared by people may be arguable, calling them plain wrong is, ekhm, wrong ;)
2018-06-25T07:54:33Z xificurC: jackdaniel: you're wrong!
2018-06-25T07:54:36Z verisimilitude: One dumbass here threatened me over a Rust joke, which was amusing, but stupid.
2018-06-25T07:54:50Z jackdaniel: either way, please refrain from offtopic
2018-06-25T07:55:04Z xificurC shuts his mouth and goes to write some code
2018-06-25T07:55:29Z verisimilitude: Anyway, I meant that many Common Lisp libraries are simply finished, MichaelRaskin.
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2018-06-25T07:56:19Z White_Flame: and if the interface changes, the compiler will whine anyway
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2018-06-25T07:56:52Z MichaelRaskin: As the passive post-abandonment maintainer of cl-emb I would say that many libraries are finished enough to use but in the ideal world could see some more development.
2018-06-25T07:56:54Z verisimilitude: Anyway, if you really wanted to protect yourself, you'd simply use IMPORT-FROM or SHADOWING-IMPORT-FROM; either of those are better than using package qualifiers constantly.
2018-06-25T07:57:23Z MichaelRaskin: Not always better but not always worse, in my (cynical) opinion
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2018-06-25T08:05:01Z xificurC: (defstruct image-info name path from tag) now (apply #'make-image-info info) turns a plist into a struct. Is there something prebuilt to do the reverse?
2018-06-25T08:05:29Z verisimilitude: You want to turn a struct into a property list?
2018-06-25T08:05:48Z xificurC: yes.
2018-06-25T08:06:03Z xificurC: or a class, doesn't matter, can change
2018-06-25T08:06:05Z verisimilitude: From memory, no, there's no default functionality for this, unless your struct is already represented as a list or vector, in which case it would be trivial to do.
2018-06-25T08:07:00Z verisimilitude: CLOS has no standard functionality for traversing all slots of an object, so no.
2018-06-25T08:07:18Z xificurC: not even MOP?
2018-06-25T08:07:21Z verisimilitude: YWhat you should do, xificurC, is define a macro that defines this for you, however.
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2018-06-25T08:07:47Z verisimilitude: You can even shadow DEFSTRUCT or DEFCLASS to do this.
2018-06-25T08:08:03Z xificurC: yeah, I'll leap that far when it pays off
2018-06-25T08:08:13Z xificurC: not for 1 struct
2018-06-25T08:08:21Z verisimilitude: Well, just do it manually, then, yes.
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2018-06-25T08:10:43Z flip214: Well, I'm on beach's side here ... on both accounts (CL in DEFPACKAGE, and avoid discussions that feel senseless)
2018-06-25T08:11:10Z verisimilitude: Why, flip214?
2018-06-25T08:11:13Z beach: Thanks flip214.
2018-06-25T08:11:23Z xificurC: don't poke the bear
2018-06-25T08:11:27Z beach: flip214: Can we discuss the GC specification?  Do you have time?
2018-06-25T08:11:48Z verisimilitude: I've pointed out several reasons why I believe the advice is poor; it would be nice to discuss why you disagree with these points.
2018-06-25T08:11:51Z beach: [that is something I would like to discuss]
2018-06-25T08:12:26Z flip214: verisimilitude: xificurC: at least SBCL has SB-PCL:CLASS-SLOTS and CLASS-DIRECT-SLOTS
2018-06-25T08:12:39Z flip214: beach: here, or in PM, or in some other channel?
2018-06-25T08:12:58Z beach: Here is fine if it is OK with you (and other participants).
2018-06-25T08:13:13Z flip214: verisimilitude: xificurC: and CLOSER-MOP has that too
2018-06-25T08:13:18Z flip214: beach: no problem
2018-06-25T08:13:55Z flip214: shoot
2018-06-25T08:14:00Z beach: For the benefit of others: http://metamodular.com/garbage-collection.pdf
2018-06-25T08:14:13Z verisimilitude: Well, ANSI Common Lisp doesn't, flip214.
2018-06-25T08:14:19Z beach: flip214: First question: Why do you think it would be a good idea to avoid nursery collections?
2018-06-25T08:14:26Z verisimilitude: So, you can't rely on it.
2018-06-25T08:14:42Z beach: flip214: They are not expensive and they would give a precise idea of what is live in the global heap.
2018-06-25T08:15:18Z aeth: Only (:use #:cl)? Of course. Everything else is asking for trouble with several possible exceptions: (1) alexandria and (2) stuff you yourself write. But I've been surprised by both from time to time.
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2018-06-25T08:15:48Z kuribas: how are sequence functions defined generically?
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2018-06-25T08:15:58Z verisimilitude: I can't help but find it bothersome when a program uses this ALEXANDRIA for a single macro or so.
2018-06-25T08:16:23Z beach: kuribas: Most implementations would use ordinary functions and dispatch on the type of the sequence.
2018-06-25T08:16:32Z beach: kuribas: With an explicit type test.
2018-06-25T08:16:38Z kuribas: beach: so they are not extensible?
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2018-06-25T08:16:41Z verisimilitude: They can use the more specific functions and a TYPECASE; it's handled by the implementation in any way, though.
2018-06-25T08:16:58Z beach: kuribas: They don't have to be according to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-06-25T08:17:24Z aeth: verisimilitude: I don't mind when libraries use alexandria and uiop because they're literally everywhere (and they have some name conflicts between them!)
2018-06-25T08:17:29Z beach: kuribas: But some implementations have a default case that invokes a generic function for types that are not in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.  SBCL does that for instance.
2018-06-25T08:17:31Z verisimilitude: From memory, you can't define a subclass of a standard class, kuribas.
2018-06-25T08:17:37Z flip214: beach: because performance. everything that can be avoided gives better performance.
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2018-06-25T08:18:00Z beach: verisimilitude: Sure you can.   But not necessarily of a built-in class.
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2018-06-25T08:18:24Z flip214: You'll need to forgive me, when thinking multithreading I'm nearly always thought-bound about the high-performance proxy stuff -- I can't seem to turn that off ;/
2018-06-25T08:18:34Z beach: flip214: I see.  But I suspect performance would be worse if you avoid it, because then you would retain objects in the global heap that aren't really live.
2018-06-25T08:18:36Z verisimilitude: In that case, I'll doublecheck what I wrote, beach.
2018-06-25T08:18:37Z kuribas: beach: so to define your own sequence you have to define a class?
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2018-06-25T08:18:52Z beach: kuribas: Typically, yes.
2018-06-25T08:19:15Z beach: kuribas: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf
2018-06-25T08:19:16Z mingus``` is now known as mingus
2018-06-25T08:19:28Z kuribas: data directed programming in common lisp is done with OO?
2018-06-25T08:19:33Z beach: flip214: Fair enough.
2018-06-25T08:19:58Z beach: flip214: Now some information for you: the header object IS the object, so when the header object does not move, the object does not move.
2018-06-25T08:20:12Z beach: flip214: However, in the global collector neither header nor rack moves.
2018-06-25T08:20:21Z beach: flip214: In the nursery they both do.
2018-06-25T08:20:34Z flip214: beach: I still feel that a purely IO-bound thread that does no allocations (because it's working with a reused buffer) doesn't need to do local GC, and neither needs to hold up the global GC.
2018-06-25T08:20:36Z beach: kuribas: That's typically the best option, yes.
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2018-06-25T08:21:07Z flip214: beach: so in the nursery the objects identity changes?
2018-06-25T08:21:16Z beach: flip214: Yes, I see.  I would have to think about that one.  On the other hand, in that case, the GC will be very fast, because there is no compaction.
2018-06-25T08:21:26Z beach: Yes, they do.
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2018-06-25T08:21:51Z beach: But since those objects are limited to the application thread, the pointers can be updated with no interaction with other threads.
2018-06-25T08:22:36Z verisimilitude: system class n. a class that may be of type built-in-class in a conforming implementation and hence cannot be inherited by classes defined by conforming programs.
2018-06-25T08:22:39Z beach: flip214: The other thing is that I suspect that global collections will be infrequent.
2018-06-25T08:22:54Z verisimilitude: SEQUENCE is a system class, so I was right.
2018-06-25T08:23:06Z beach: flip214: So most of the time, a nursery GC will happen because there is no more space in the nursery.
2018-06-25T08:23:15Z beach: flip214: Therefore GC can not be avoided anyway.
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2018-06-25T08:23:36Z beach: verisimilitude: No, you said "standard class".
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2018-06-25T08:23:51Z verisimilitude: Well, I meant the classes provided by the implementation
2018-06-25T08:23:54Z verisimilitude: .
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2018-06-25T08:24:04Z beach: verisimilitude: But that's not what "standard class" means.
2018-06-25T08:24:37Z beach: verisimilitude: Look in the glossary, "standard class" means an instance of STANDARD-CLASS.
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2018-06-25T08:25:04Z beach: verisimilitude: Is that something you would like to debate?
2018-06-25T08:25:48Z verisimilitude: STANDARD-CLASS is also a system class.
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2018-06-25T08:26:17Z verisimilitude: Don't be a jackass, beach.
2018-06-25T08:26:27Z verisimilitude: We can deebate your own mistaken thoughts, first.
2018-06-25T08:26:38Z jackdaniel: please refrain from calling people names, *especially* when you are wrong
2018-06-25T08:26:43Z jackdaniel: scratch the second part, never call people names
2018-06-25T08:27:21Z verisimilitude: I usually do, jackdaniel, but I don't care for the lack of defending an idea in this case.
2018-06-25T08:27:46Z verisimilitude: Anyway, I should've written ``system'' instead of ``standard''; I was clearly wrong there.
2018-06-25T08:27:51Z jackdaniel: http://sellout.github.io/2012/03/03/common-lisp-type-hierarchy/ plesae refere to this diagram which illustrates hierarchy of classes provided by common lisp
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2018-06-25T08:28:25Z beach: verisimilitude: "you can't define a subclass of a standard class" is just wrong.
2018-06-25T08:28:32Z jackdaniel: it is "just" class, which has a few subclasses (standard-class and built-in-class being that)
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2018-06-25T08:29:07Z verisimilitude: I am wrong; I meant to write ``system''.
2018-06-25T08:29:08Z jackdaniel: beach: assuming we count MOP as part of CL
2018-06-25T08:29:14Z verisimilitude: I don't.
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2018-06-25T08:29:52Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't think we need to assume that.
2018-06-25T08:30:03Z verisimilitude: CLOS is the part of Common Lisp I use the least and have the least familiarity with.
2018-06-25T08:30:21Z verisimilitude: If an implementation isn't forced to provide it, it's not part of CL in a meaningful sense.
2018-06-25T08:30:40Z verisimilitude: It's a popular extension.
2018-06-25T08:31:23Z verisimilitude: So, I was correct then, jackdaniel?
2018-06-25T08:32:20Z jackdaniel: I don't know, I'd have to dig into the spec to confirm my pervious assertion (and honestly I don't have time for that)
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2018-06-25T08:33:00Z beach: jackdaniel: For example, if you couldn't do that, then you could not define your own class hierarchy, because whenever you use DEFCLASS, you create a standard class.
2018-06-25T08:33:49Z beach: jackdaniel: Notice the difference between "a subclass of A standard class" and "a subclass of STANDARD-CLASS".
2018-06-25T08:33:50Z jackdaniel: beach: do you mean an instance of standard class? because there is a difference
2018-06-25T08:33:59Z beach: Yes, big difference.
2018-06-25T08:34:17Z verisimilitude: Since STANDARD-CLASS is a SYSTEM-CLASS, it seems like I'm right.
2018-06-25T08:34:34Z verisimilitude: Still, there's some other material I'm still reading to confirm.
2018-06-25T08:34:39Z beach: verisimilitude: Being right seems very important to you.
2018-06-25T08:34:48Z beach: I gave up on that many decades ago.
2018-06-25T08:35:39Z verisimilitude: Well, you feel free to that.
2018-06-25T08:36:22Z verisimilitude: I came here because I was bored, beach.
2018-06-25T08:36:36Z jackdaniel: so let me clarify: of course you can subclass a class being instance of a standard-class, I have doubts regarding subclassing standard-class itself without mop
2018-06-25T08:36:55Z beach: jackdaniel: That's different, sure.
2018-06-25T08:37:22Z jackdaniel: and while wording was sloppy, I think verisimilitude had the latter in mind
2018-06-25T08:37:24Z beach: jackdaniel: And yes, "a standard class" means "an instance of STANDARD-CLASS" which is what you get when you use DEFCLASS.  That was the assertion, i.e. "you can't define a subclass of a standard class", where "a standard class" means "an instance of STANDARD-CLASS".
2018-06-25T08:37:48Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't think verisimilitude knows CLOS well enough to know the difference.
2018-06-25T08:37:52Z verisimilitude: I meant the class itself.
2018-06-25T08:38:01Z verisimilitude: This was in the context of SEQUENCE.
2018-06-25T08:38:12Z jackdaniel: sequence is a built-in class
2018-06-25T08:38:13Z verisimilitude: You can't subclass SEQUENCE at all.
2018-06-25T08:38:14Z beach: verisimilitude: No you did not, because we were talking about subclassing SEQUENCE.
2018-06-25T08:38:37Z beach: verisimilitude: SEQUENCE and STANDARD-CLASS are two different classes.
2018-06-25T08:38:40Z verisimilitude: SEQUENCE is a class, beach.
2018-06-25T08:38:41Z jackdaniel: and there is a extension (implemented at least in sbcl and abcl) which allows subclassing sequence
2018-06-25T08:38:59Z jackdaniel: verisimilitude: please look at the diagram I've linked
2018-06-25T08:39:02Z xificurC: one leaves for 10 minutes and the troll is winning
2018-06-25T08:39:04Z jackdaniel: sequence is a built-in class
2018-06-25T08:39:16Z jackdaniel: and standard-class is something else
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2018-06-25T08:40:14Z verisimilitude: Being right seems important to you, beach, so I gladly admit that I was mostly wrong here, due to poor wording.
2018-06-25T08:40:23Z jackdaniel: also I believe that by system-class you mean class, there is no class named `system-class' in common lisp: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_class.htm
2018-06-25T08:40:51Z verisimilitude: I'm no troll, xificurC.
2018-06-25T08:41:14Z verisimilitude: Well, more poor writing on my part, then, jackdaniel.
2018-06-25T08:41:55Z xificurC: verisimilitude: you came to "discuss" because you were bored. Sounds like trolling to me
2018-06-25T08:42:27Z verisimilitude: It's so queer to me how different this venue is to those I'm accustomed to.
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2018-06-25T08:43:12Z verisimilitude: Why would you be on IRC if you weren't bored, for one.
2018-06-25T08:43:33Z xificurC: verisimilitude: I hope you're joking
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2018-06-25T08:44:07Z beach: flip214: You are right that I have to be careful about the global GC protocol so that there aren't any racks that can not be reclaimed.  I have not made up my mind yet.  But one thing would be to not allow arbitrary interrupts and restrict them to safe points.  That seems to be a pretty standard solution.
2018-06-25T08:44:15Z verisimilitude: No; most everywhere I typically go people are on IRC out of boredom.
2018-06-25T08:44:23Z beach: verisimilitude: Not here.
2018-06-25T08:44:32Z beach: verisimilitude: We have joint projects to discuss.
2018-06-25T08:44:33Z xificurC: verisimilitude: read the logs of this channel and think again
2018-06-25T08:44:37Z verisimilitude: Well, that's another interesting difference, then.
2018-06-25T08:44:57Z verisimilitude: So do the bored people.
2018-06-25T08:45:14Z xificurC: there's #lispcafe or w/e for pseudo-talks like this
2018-06-25T08:45:24Z makomo: "system class n. a class that may be of type built-in-class in a conforming implementation" and then also "System Class BUILT-IN-CLASS" -- does this mean that BUILT-IN-CLASS itself could be an instance of BUILT-IN-CLASS? :D
2018-06-25T08:45:26Z verisimilitude: I wasn't aware; I'll keep that in mind.
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2018-06-25T08:45:58Z beach: flip214: Regarding race condition in the nursery collector, I don't think there are any.  The bit would be set at the beginning of the GC, or not at all.  But yes, there may be a mostly no-op GC following it if the global collection is then triggeredd.
2018-06-25T08:46:03Z beach: triggered.
2018-06-25T08:46:16Z beach: flip214: Again, I am hoping a global collection will be fairly infrequent.
2018-06-25T08:47:01Z beach: makomo: No, BUILT-IN class is a standard class, i.e. an instance of STANDARD-CLASS.
2018-06-25T08:47:28Z makomo: beach: hmm, did i miss something then? http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_built_.htm
2018-06-25T08:47:32Z makomo: it says "System class"
2018-06-25T08:47:52Z makomo: hmm, but it does have STANDARD-OBJECT as its superclass
2018-06-25T08:48:19Z beach: makomo: OK, fine.  It's a standard class in the MOP.
2018-06-25T08:49:55Z xificurC: why does one need to use return in the finally clause of LOOP?
2018-06-25T08:50:11Z beach: xificurC: Because LOOP returns NIL by default.
2018-06-25T08:50:18Z beach: Why does it do that?  I have no idea.
2018-06-25T08:50:37Z xificurC: beach: haha, ok
2018-06-25T08:50:45Z loke: beach: What else would it return?
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2018-06-25T08:50:54Z xificurC: it's not finally if it's not, ehm, final
2018-06-25T08:50:55Z verisimilitude: It could return a collected value.
2018-06-25T08:51:00Z beach: loke: Yeah, good point.
2018-06-25T08:51:07Z loke: beach: I mean, LOOP returns the “reasonable”“ value, as in the list when you use COLLECT, etc.
2018-06-25T08:51:13Z xificurC: loke: the result of the finally clause?
2018-06-25T08:51:16Z beach: loke: Indeed.
2018-06-25T08:51:18Z makomo: ^^
2018-06-25T08:51:18Z verisimilitude: That is, listing some other things LOOP can return other than NIL.
2018-06-25T08:51:27Z loke: xificurC: Because that would conflict with the use of COLLECT
2018-06-25T08:51:54Z makomo: loke: add a rule that would say that if there are both COLLECT and FINALLY, then the result of COLLECT will be returned :-)
2018-06-25T08:52:20Z verisimilitude: On that topic, I never use keywords when using LOOP; what of you all?
2018-06-25T08:52:30Z beach: flip214: I think I will allow for objects to be directly allocated in the global heap, and FFI buffers could be one such possibility.
2018-06-25T08:52:30Z jackdaniel: makomo: having something "as superclass" and having something "as metaclass" are two different things
2018-06-25T08:52:32Z loke: makomo: Sure. There is certainly a justifable argument for that. However, that's not what they settled on and now the spec is what it is :-)
2018-06-25T08:52:44Z makomo: loke: indeed :D
2018-06-25T08:52:50Z jackdaniel: built-in-class is a subclass of class (same as standard-class), but its metaclass is standard-class
2018-06-25T08:53:10Z xificurC: loke: you mean like (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i finally (1+ i)) you expect the collected value to be returned? (which does happen)
2018-06-25T08:53:20Z verisimilitude: This (LOOP FOR I FROM 0 TO 10 COLLECTING I) looks much better than (LOOP :FOR I :FROM 0 :TO 10 :COLLECTING I), I think.
2018-06-25T08:53:28Z makomo: jackdaniel: right, but i was getting at the fact that instances of STANDARD-CLASS always have STANDARD-OBJECT as their superclasses
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2018-06-25T08:53:49Z makomo: i.e. since it has STANDARD-OBJECT as its superclass, its metaclass must be STANDARD-CLASS
2018-06-25T08:53:53Z beach: jackdaniel: The question, though, would be that, since built-in-class is a system class, could there be some other possibility than for it to be a standard class.
2018-06-25T08:54:04Z makomo: exactly
2018-06-25T08:54:08Z loke: verisimilitude: Agreed
2018-06-25T08:54:26Z loke: verisimilitude: The arguments for using keywords are all stupid
2018-06-25T08:54:37Z verisimilitude: It just complicates LOOP further to permit it, as well.
2018-06-25T08:54:40Z makomo: the glossary says that "system class" is "a class that may be of type built-in-class"
2018-06-25T08:54:43Z xificurC: loke: what about (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect i into one collect i into two finally (1+ i))
2018-06-25T08:54:45Z flip214: beach: sorry about the delay, had to answer the door.
2018-06-25T08:54:55Z makomo: and built-in-class itself is a system class
2018-06-25T08:55:13Z beach: flip214: No problem, I am just submitting stuff for you in the meantime.  If you are busy, that's fine.
2018-06-25T08:55:27Z xificurC: loke: you have to write e.g. finally (return (list one two)) whereas it's kind of obvious what you are about to return
2018-06-25T08:55:41Z flip214: if the object headers are of a fixed size, you might not need to compact them - just create a singly-linked list of free elements during GC, so identity is preserved and no pointers need updating.
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2018-06-25T08:55:58Z makomo: verisimilitude: i always use keywords. it looks much nicer to me
2018-06-25T08:56:24Z makomo: and you can clearly see the distinction between LOOP's special symbols and the user's stuff
2018-06-25T08:56:35Z flip214: with a fixed size (and that being a nice round 2 words!) there'll be no waste anyway
2018-06-25T08:56:38Z verisimilitude: That's one advantage, I suppose.
2018-06-25T08:56:39Z beach: flip214: [this is another one of your remarks] I think by using a single word for the bits, and by using CAS, I get atomic operations.
2018-06-25T08:57:00Z beach: flip214: I do want to compact the nurseary.
2018-06-25T08:57:16Z beach: flip214: That's how I keep track of exact age of objects.  They are sorted by age.
2018-06-25T08:57:36Z jackdaniel: I can't think of any, all metaobjects inherit from standard-object
2018-06-25T08:57:49Z flip214: ah, okay. I forgot. (sorted by age)
2018-06-25T08:57:56Z beach: flip214: That way, I don't run the risk of promoting objects that were just allocated, and then immediately survived a GC, which is a problem with other collectors.
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2018-06-25T08:58:38Z flip214: yeah, I understand the atomic bit-changes here. Just feels a bit complicated, my mind doesn't see the need for anything but a simple "owner-thread" lock yet.
2018-06-25T08:58:46Z beach: flip214: But I take advantage of that in the global collector so that objects won't move there, avoiding communication between threads.
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2018-06-25T08:59:01Z beach: flip214: That remains to be seen, sure.
2018-06-25T08:59:17Z beach: flip214: concurrency is not my strong point.  I am counting on loke to help me out here.
2018-06-25T08:59:28Z makomo: jackdaniel: i'm only asking if it's *possible* for BUILT-IN-CLASS to be an instance of BUILT-IN-CLASS (like STANDARD-CLASS is an instance of STANDARD-CLASS)
2018-06-25T08:59:54Z makomo: jackdaniel: you said that BUILT-IN-CLASS' metaclass is STANDARD-CLASS -- is this stated in the MOP?
2018-06-25T09:00:05Z beach: flip214: I think a semaphore and a lock are still different.  A semaphore can be signaled by a thread that didn't wait on it.
2018-06-25T09:00:31Z beach: makomo: It would be weird, and I haven't thought about such possibilities.
2018-06-25T09:00:34Z jackdaniel: makomo: standard-object is an instance of standard-class by definition
2018-06-25T09:00:37Z makomo: beach: heheh, semaphores and locks :-)
2018-06-25T09:00:48Z beach: Yeah. :)
2018-06-25T09:00:51Z jackdaniel: makomo: so if built-in-class inherits from standard-object, it is also sa standard-class
2018-06-25T09:01:06Z makomo: beach: yeah i guess, but i'm just curious
2018-06-25T09:01:30Z beach: jackdaniel: I am not sure that follows.
2018-06-25T09:01:46Z makomo: jackdaniel: that's what i thought too when beach told me its metaclass is STANDARD-CLASS
2018-06-25T09:02:01Z makomo: i.e. i used the reverse logic "its superclass is STANDARD-OBJECT, so its metaclass must be STANDARD-CLASS"
2018-06-25T09:02:16Z beach: Yeah, I don't think that is correct logic.
2018-06-25T09:02:19Z Xof: that's definitely not true
2018-06-25T09:02:25Z Xof: standard-generic-function is a counterexample
2018-06-25T09:02:26Z jackdaniel: either way, that has no practical implications for my programs, so I'm not interesting in diving deeper into closology
2018-06-25T09:02:29Z makomo: but the CLHS says that it is a "system class" which means its metaclass *might* be BUILT-IN-CLASS
2018-06-25T09:03:17Z makomo: Xof: i don't see that STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION has SYSTEM-OBJECT as its superclass
2018-06-25T09:04:10Z makomo: and it's also listed as a "system class" within clhs
2018-06-25T09:05:42Z jackdaniel: makomo: funcallable-standard-object exists only in MOP, and it inherits from function and standard-object
2018-06-25T09:06:05Z jackdaniel: and it is a transitive superclass for standard-generic-function
2018-06-25T09:06:52Z makomo: jackdaniel: i see, so within the context of MOP, STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION *does* have STANDARD-OBJECT as its superclass then?
2018-06-25T09:07:11Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-06-25T09:07:38Z makomo: and i presume its metaclass is STANDARD-CLASS then?
2018-06-25T09:08:05Z jackdaniel: according to Xof's assertion it is not, but I'd check in MOP if I were you
2018-06-25T09:08:29Z makomo: Xof: ah, so you were talking in the context of MOP as well?
2018-06-25T09:09:22Z jackdaniel: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-funcallable-standard-class.html
2018-06-25T09:09:35Z jackdaniel: it says that metaclass is standard-class
2018-06-25T09:10:07Z LdBeth uploaded an image: ima_b9823ea.png (93KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/XmpoUwSfDGKqEDFgVRHjrKxJ >
2018-06-25T09:10:16Z jackdaniel: but once again, I'm detaching from this MOP discussion
2018-06-25T09:10:42Z makomo: jackdaniel: you've said that 2-3 times already, obviously you're interested :D
2018-06-25T09:10:51Z jackdaniel: no, I'm just a very bad quitter
2018-06-25T09:11:00Z makomo: haha
2018-06-25T09:11:00Z Xof: standard-generic-function has standard-object in its superclass list and has metaclass funcallable-standard-class
2018-06-25T09:13:24Z makomo: Xof: ah i see
2018-06-25T09:14:08Z makomo: but BUILT-IN-CLASS' metaclass is indeed STANDARD-CLASS as beach said, within the context of MOP
2018-06-25T09:14:36Z jackdaniel: yes, but not for the reason I've suggested
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2018-06-25T09:14:46Z makomo: i guess that's why clhs says "might" in the definition of "system class" -- it might be something else, like STANDARD-CLASS as the MOP says
2018-06-25T09:14:50Z makomo: jackdaniel: yup
2018-06-25T09:16:11Z makomo: but if we threw away the MOP, which is "just" an extension anyway, then BUILT-IN-CLASS could perhaps be its own metaclass, like STANDARD-CLASS is
2018-06-25T09:18:07Z makomo: heh, but the fact that STANDARD-CLASS is its own metaclass is due to the MOP. clhs says that STANDARD-CLASS is a system class as well ;-)
2018-06-25T09:20:15Z jackdaniel whispers (because it is a heresy) one could say that clos+mop may be a bit overengineered
2018-06-25T09:20:38Z makomo: trust the natural recursion :^)
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2018-06-25T09:23:59Z flip214: beach: a lock that gets unlocked will restart the thread waiting for the lock as well ;)
2018-06-25T09:24:35Z LdBeth: MOP is an option, not a requirement
2018-06-25T09:25:31Z beach: flip214: I need to think about it.  Anyway, thanks for your thorough comments, as usual.
2018-06-25T09:26:01Z flip214: beach: you're _really_ welcome!
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2018-06-25T09:39:07Z MichaelRaskin: beach: by the way, I have a feeling that compile performance impact of my debugger hooks is worse than runtime. I would say 30x to 70x for compile time (mostly the actual compilation of all the hook calls) and 30x to 40x for runtime with callbacks that do nothing
2018-06-25T09:39:35Z beach: MichaelRaskin: That's interesting.  Though the orders of magnitude are similar.
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2018-06-25T09:44:07Z beach: Xof: You are a smart person.  Would you have time to take a quick look at my GC specification to determine whether it has some obvious flaws?
2018-06-25T09:44:17Z MichaelRaskin: And that's after I stopped wrapping single variable reads
2018-06-25T09:44:20Z beach: Xof: I fully understand if the answer is "no".
2018-06-25T09:45:28Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Wow, that's some overhead.
2018-06-25T09:46:19Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, especially for compilation, as I need a let to be able to have a breakpoint just-after a form with its result known…
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2018-06-25T09:57:01Z MichaelRaskin: beach: maybe that hook for faster rejection of irrelevant callbacks is not worth it when it is overridable (and it costs code size)
2018-06-25T09:58:23Z beach: Hard to tell.
2018-06-25T09:58:40Z MichaelRaskin: Well, I would say that 50x compile time is actually horrible
2018-06-25T09:58:58Z beach: It could become very slow.
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2018-06-25T10:00:21Z MichaelRaskin: Not really: even if it accepts nothing it doesn't save that much compared to callback that always starts (and gets the data) and never does anything.
2018-06-25T10:00:31Z MichaelRaskin: So the main callback can filter just as well
2018-06-25T10:00:43Z beach: OK.
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2018-06-25T10:00:45Z MichaelRaskin: 30x is a lot of slowdown to fit a few calls
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2018-06-25T10:01:37Z Xof: beach: time :-(
2018-06-25T10:01:50Z Xof: Thank you for the vote of confidence, though!
2018-06-25T10:01:54Z beach: Xof: Sure.  No problem.
2018-06-25T10:01:59Z Xof: I might have time mid-July or later
2018-06-25T10:02:07Z beach: I'll take it. :)
2018-06-25T10:02:21Z beach: Seriously, don't worry.
2018-06-25T10:03:26Z beach: Xof: I thought you must be bored, since you are on IRC. :)
2018-06-25T10:03:53Z beach: Though of course, in our job it is not unusual to be simultaneously overworked and bored.
2018-06-25T10:06:51Z Xof: I'm multitasking!
2018-06-25T10:07:04Z Xof: I'm in teaching demos for our new staff recruitment round
2018-06-25T10:07:10Z Xof: therefore, I have to pretend to be a student
2018-06-25T10:07:22Z Xof: so, being on Social Media while someone is trying to teach me something I don't care about very much :-)
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2018-06-25T10:35:42Z beach: Sounds bad.
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2018-06-25T10:55:33Z shka: lparallel:psort keeps exhausting stack space for me
2018-06-25T10:55:45Z shka: am I doing something wrong?
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2018-06-25T10:58:27Z shka: it kinda looks like recursive implementation of merge sort that went wrong
2018-06-25T10:58:49Z beach: shka: Is it your implementation?
2018-06-25T10:59:15Z shka: no, it is from otherwise excelent lparallel
2018-06-25T10:59:31Z beach: Merge sort should only use logarithmic space on the stack.
2018-06-25T11:00:06Z shka: well, it should
2018-06-25T11:00:11Z beach: So even if you sort a very large data set, the stack space should be modest.
2018-06-25T11:00:30Z shka: i will check lparallel source code
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2018-06-25T11:04:26Z shka: beach: odly enough it is not even merge sort to begin with
2018-06-25T11:04:37Z beach: That could very well explain it.
2018-06-25T11:04:47Z shka: it is quicksort
2018-06-25T11:05:06Z shka: but at least i think i know how can i bypass the issue
2018-06-25T11:05:25Z beach: Quicksort has a very bad case where it takes up linear stack space if you do it recursively, and quadratic time.
2018-06-25T11:05:44Z shka: that's exactly what lparallel is doing :/
2018-06-25T11:06:15Z beach: That is why I suggested the merge sort project the other day.
2018-06-25T11:07:34Z shka: well, ok, i see exactly what you meant
2018-06-25T11:07:58Z beach: What are you sorting?  A list or a vector?
2018-06-25T11:08:05Z shka: vector, obviously
2018-06-25T11:08:08Z Xof: ~>
2018-06-25T11:08:21Z Xof: oops
2018-06-25T11:08:26Z shka: Xof: :-)
2018-06-25T11:08:46Z Xof: luckily that wasn't my passwor
2018-06-25T11:08:47Z Xof: d
2018-06-25T11:08:54Z shka: happend to me the other day
2018-06-25T11:09:18Z shka: anyway, i will simply write my own parallel sort
2018-06-25T11:09:49Z shka: ... or not
2018-06-25T11:10:03Z shka: sort does not accept :start and :end arguments
2018-06-25T11:10:11Z shka: what a shame
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2018-06-25T11:10:59Z shka: beach: well, i guess that this project become whole more attractive to me :P
2018-06-25T11:11:09Z beach: Heh!
2018-06-25T11:12:09Z shka: also, sort seriously should accept bounds key arguments
2018-06-25T11:13:38Z MichaelRaskin: Well, for sorting lists it makes less sense
2018-06-25T11:14:19Z shka: sorting large list is not a good idea to begin with!
2018-06-25T11:14:58Z schweers: shka: if my memory serves me correctly, sorting lists is faster than sorting vectors in sbcl.
2018-06-25T11:14:59Z MichaelRaskin: Well, actually merge sort on large lists is pretty OK
2018-06-25T11:15:13Z schweers: s/in/on/
2018-06-25T11:15:32Z MichaelRaskin: I think for large lists sorting pre-sorted list is slower than sorting a reverse-sorted list in SBCL
2018-06-25T11:18:48Z shka: schweers: that would be surprising
2018-06-25T11:19:01Z schweers: I know, I was surprised
2018-06-25T11:19:18Z schweers: best check it, my memory has a hisory of performing badly.
2018-06-25T11:19:48Z shka: not today
2018-06-25T11:20:17Z shka: list size overhead is not acceptable for my dataset
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2018-06-25T11:21:05Z beach: shka: Then you are between a rock and a hard spot.
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2018-06-25T11:21:25Z beach: shka: Either you use quicksort and you have that bad worst case.
2018-06-25T11:21:42Z beach: shka: Or else you use merge sort which requires O(n) extra space, so the same as a list.
2018-06-25T11:21:54Z beach: ... unless, of course, you take on the project I suggested.
2018-06-25T11:22:18Z shka: beach: i can use sort from sbcl, it will work just fine but just takes more time
2018-06-25T11:22:28Z beach: OK.
2018-06-25T11:22:38Z shka: but yes, i see appeal of this project
2018-06-25T11:22:56Z shka: i won't be able to tackle this for two weeks
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2018-06-25T11:23:01Z shka: or 3
2018-06-25T11:23:29Z schweers: beach: did you suggest that quicksort can be implemented without recursion?  Am I missing something really obvious?
2018-06-25T11:23:37Z shka: but if i can put it into lparallel, it would be great
2018-06-25T11:24:45Z beach: schweers: I don't know whether I suggested that.  But I am pretty sure it can.
2018-06-25T11:25:30Z schweers: beach: I mean this quote: “<beach> Quicksort has a very bad case where it takes up linear stack space if
2018-06-25T11:25:30Z schweers:         you do it recursively, and quadratic time.”
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2018-06-25T11:25:43Z MichaelRaskin: Well, you can always replace recursion with a loop with your own fully controlled stack data structure
2018-06-25T11:25:47Z schweers: By without recursion you mean using some alternate stack?
2018-06-25T11:26:02Z beach: schweers: Yes, I see.  I didn't think to hard about it.
2018-06-25T11:26:10Z MichaelRaskin: Well, worst-case quicksort is just quadratic-time in any case.
2018-06-25T11:26:59Z beach: schweers: One easy way would be to recurse on the shorter of the two parts, and iterate on the other.
2018-06-25T11:27:05Z MichaelRaskin: You might be able to keep it logarithmic-stack with tail-call-optimisations (easy if you roll your own stack control)
2018-06-25T11:27:05Z beach: That would keep it logarithmic.
2018-06-25T11:27:44Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Or you can just implement it as iteration.
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2018-06-25T11:32:01Z Xof: worst-case quicksort is n log n time
2018-06-25T11:32:17Z Xof: (fun fact!)
2018-06-25T11:33:10Z beach: Define "quicksort" then. :)
2018-06-25T11:33:36Z Xof: quicksort, choosing the median as pivot
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2018-06-25T11:34:22Z beach: That's now how I have seen it described.  I have always seen it as choosing an arbitrary pivot.
2018-06-25T11:34:54Z MichaelRaskin: Xof: think of the children^W constants!
2018-06-25T11:36:37Z Xof: MichaelRaskin: yeah, "not generally used in practice" :-)
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2018-06-25T11:46:33Z MichaelRaskin: If only you could reuse some of the work for finding later medians…
2018-06-25T11:46:58Z MichaelRaskin: But it is easier to do heap sort. No extra space, no worst case gotchas.
2018-06-25T11:47:01Z beach: No problem.  You can start by sorting the entire vector.
2018-06-25T11:47:10Z Xof: :-)
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2018-06-25T11:47:16Z MichaelRaskin: By heapsort
2018-06-25T11:47:32Z shka: i heared you like sorting
2018-06-25T11:47:42Z shka: so in order to sort you have to first sort
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2018-06-25T11:47:53Z beach: I maintain my suggested project using merge sort with O(1) extra space if there is no stack space available.
2018-06-25T11:48:19Z shka: i makes a lot of sense
2018-06-25T11:48:53Z shka: the only drawback is that you need to have separate code for each implementation
2018-06-25T11:49:02Z MichaelRaskin: Wait, how do you do such a merge?
2018-06-25T11:49:11Z beach: shka: As if we don't already?
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2018-06-25T11:49:20Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Published papers.
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2018-06-25T11:50:31Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Fast Stable Merging and Sorting in Constant Extra Space, by Bing-Chao Huang and Michael A. Langston.
2018-06-25T11:51:02Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, already found it
2018-06-25T11:51:23Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Practical In-place Mergesort by Jyrki Katajainen, tomi Pasanen, Jukka Teuhola.
2018-06-25T11:52:23Z beach: MichaelRaskin: But my suggested project has the same twist as some previous papers of ours.  Namely use the stack if there is space.
2018-06-25T11:52:47Z beach: Because I suspect that those algorithms are not as fast as standard merge sort.
2018-06-25T11:52:54Z MichaelRaskin: That's true.
2018-06-25T11:53:21Z MichaelRaskin: But using stack doesn't buy you _that_ much compared to strategic one-time allocation anyway
2018-06-25T11:53:35Z beach: Wow, the more I think about it, the more preposterous I find the idea of coming to IRC because of boredom.
2018-06-25T11:53:41Z MichaelRaskin: (if you allocate the same amount as you were going to put on stack)
2018-06-25T11:54:06Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Sure, but you would have to know that you have that much memory available in the heap, and you many not have.
2018-06-25T11:54:22Z beach: Especially if you sort big vectors.
2018-06-25T11:54:40Z TMA: beach: that's just O(1) space merge; you still need to keep track what subsequence are you trying to merge, and as there are O(N) subsequences at the tails, you need O(logN) bits of storage to remember which subsequence you are merging
2018-06-25T11:55:16Z beach: TMA: I don't remember the details, but what you are saying seems to contradict the results of both those papers.
2018-06-25T11:55:53Z MichaelRaskin: I think the real answer is we want O(1) cells, and a call is always more than log n bits
2018-06-25T11:56:00Z MichaelRaskin: a cell
2018-06-25T11:56:37Z beach: TMA: But I think O(log n) bits would be quite reasonable in practice.
2018-06-25T11:57:10Z TMA: beach: I think I have read at least one of them. they are not concened with the recursive subdivision and recombination that takes O(logN) space but only with the merge step, which ordinarily takes O(N) space but they brought it down to O(1)
2018-06-25T11:57:36Z beach: TMA: Interesting.
2018-06-25T11:57:58Z beach: TMA: If I ever take up that project, I'll definitely read those papers with what you are saying in mind.
2018-06-25T11:57:59Z MichaelRaskin: That part is actually easy to bring down to O(1) if you are single-threaded
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2018-06-25T11:58:24Z MichaelRaskin: Because for merging you can enumerate the needed merges in advance without any care for data contents
2018-06-25T11:59:21Z beach: Personally, I am less interested in the theoretical result than in an implementation that is fast for most cases and uses little space when it has to.
2018-06-25T11:59:29Z TMA: the other twist might be that they might be using the convention that pointer size is O(1) irrespective of N
2018-06-25T11:59:51Z MichaelRaskin: That is definitely so
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2018-06-25T12:00:10Z beach: I think I would have done that.
2018-06-25T12:00:14Z MichaelRaskin: Because you are about allocating O(1) extra records. And integers are usually pointer-length etc.
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2018-06-25T12:03:24Z TMA: [that is wrong from the theoretical standpoint ... you cannot store the number of elements in less than O(log_2(N)) bits ... although you can do away with O(1) with the additional requirement that N < 2^k (because O(k) = O(1))
2018-06-25T12:03:29Z TMA: ]
2018-06-25T12:04:26Z MichaelRaskin: TMA: there is more than one theoretical model used for complexity definitions, though
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2018-06-25T12:08:07Z MichaelRaskin: I am not sure making a stable heapsort is a worse idea than implementing the constant-space merges
2018-06-25T12:08:26Z TMA: if I can assume N < 2^128, I can keep track of the 'subsequence to merge next' in one pointer of 128 bits and one level indicator of 7 bits ... <2^32 its 32 bits and 5 bits ... for practical purposes (finite universe) those are both O(1), but ... :)
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2018-06-25T12:12:26Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Do you know how to make a stable heapsort?
2018-06-25T12:13:32Z MichaelRaskin: I think I have a few ideas that should work, but I haven't verified I don't miss something
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2018-06-25T12:18:27Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Also, merge sort is chosen because it divides the sequence in two, each with the same number of elements.  So the constant time overhead is minimized.  I don't see how heapsort can be guaranteed to have such good behavior.
2018-06-25T12:19:31Z MichaelRaskin: Well, the constants are of course a bit worse than merge sort, especially merge sort with extra memory available
2018-06-25T12:20:21Z beach: OK.
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2018-06-25T12:27:16Z shka: An mprotect call failed with ENOMEM. This probably means that the maximum amount
2018-06-25T12:27:18Z shka: grrrrr
2018-06-25T12:27:25Z shka: you are making me mad sbcl!
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2018-06-25T13:53:24Z Satou: Does anyone here use Drakma for http requests? I cannot seem to be able to find a way to send a file through POST
2018-06-25T13:56:38Z MichaelRaskin: I think :parameters '(("upload" . #p"/tmp/file.txt")) worked for me last time when I tried.
2018-06-25T13:57:54Z Satou: Right now I use  :parameters `(("file" . ,filepath)) which the filepath gets passed through as a function argument. Thanks MichaelRaskin, I'm going to try that
2018-06-25T13:58:21Z MichaelRaskin: You might want  (truename filepath)
2018-06-25T13:58:40Z MichaelRaskin: Drakma documentation also provides some advanced options
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2018-06-25T14:17:27Z Myon: which component is at fault if I'm getting http://paste.debian.net/1030665/ on Ubuntu bionic?
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2018-06-25T14:18:15Z Myon: (this is already after updating build-app and cl-asdf to what's in Debian unstable, where it works)
2018-06-25T14:21:11Z Myon: svillemot: ^
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2018-06-25T14:26:15Z Satou: MichaelRaskin, Well, it's seems I'm making some progress, but I cannot use yason to parse the output of that (my goal is to make an IPFS API client in CL)
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2018-06-25T14:27:00Z Satou: https://pastebin.com/5u3BAwK9
2018-06-25T14:28:34Z Satou: Here's an example, but I cannot seem to be able to use yason:parse on the flexi-stream it returns afterwards. I get a #\F fell through ECASE exception
2018-06-25T14:30:45Z schweers: I have a package question: I have a package #:FOO which :USEs a package #:BAR.  I want to change this fact [i.e. #:FOO should no longer :USE #:BAR].  Any tips on how to do this without restarting the lisp?
2018-06-25T14:31:43Z lieven: UNUSE-PACKAGE
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2018-06-25T14:33:10Z schweers: lieven: thank you very much, that was exactly what I was looking for!
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2018-06-25T14:37:32Z Xach: such an obscure name!!!
2018-06-25T14:38:20Z Bike: eternally-disuse-package
2018-06-25T14:39:03Z lieven: yeah it should have been something like ROBSTCK in the old Lisp naming tradition
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2018-06-25T14:41:18Z jackdaniel: I like the ROBSTCK name, thanks for the idea ;)
2018-06-25T14:41:36Z svillemot: Myon: it's not obvious at first glance, and I don't have the time to investigate now, sorry
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2018-06-25T15:15:06Z MichaelRaskin: Satou: I think it formats the flexi-stream object and tries to parse that
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2018-06-25T15:17:06Z Satou: any way to work around that?
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2018-06-25T15:18:51Z MichaelRaskin: Try reading data yourself, outputting it and also feeding it to yason as a string
2018-06-25T15:19:54Z Satou: so, no flexi streams for that (sorry, I'm pretty new to CL)
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2018-06-25T15:21:51Z Satou: I've set drakma's header-stream to *standard-output*. What it returns is a bad request (400)
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2018-06-25T15:26:42Z oni-on-ion: check with curl  ?
2018-06-25T15:28:14Z Satou: cl-curl oni-on-ion ?
2018-06-25T15:31:01Z oni-on-ion: command line curl; bad request (400) is from the server.
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2018-06-25T15:32:44Z Satou: command line curl works, I belive I'm not querying the API properly with drakma.
2018-06-25T15:32:56Z oni-on-ion: hmm
2018-06-25T15:33:33Z Satou: I have a PHP version of what I want to do
2018-06-25T15:34:03Z MichaelRaskin: Satou: no, no headers-stream
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2018-06-25T15:34:50Z Satou: why not? that's just for me to know if the request was successfull
2018-06-25T15:34:53Z MichaelRaskin: I would start with force-binary instead of want-stream.
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2018-06-25T15:35:07Z Satou: thanks, I'm gonna take a look at it
2018-06-25T15:35:33Z MichaelRaskin: Then Just parse the octet array with babel or trivial-utf8
2018-06-25T15:35:59Z MichaelRaskin: Also, print _all_ the return values from http-request to see server headers
2018-06-25T15:36:29Z Satou: I have to go for now, but I'll be back in a few hours. Thank you MichaelRaskin, oni-on-ion
2018-06-25T15:36:30Z MichaelRaskin: multiple-value-bind and drakma documentation should help with that
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2018-06-25T15:39:30Z oni-on-ion: i think the URL request is different for both of his scenarios. just read about drakma myself yesterday
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2018-06-25T15:59:23Z gendl: Hi, does anyone know about the Slime error with "error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments" which started happening in Emacs 26.1? Apparently it is fixed in the latest slime, but not the one available through Quicklisp yet. How would I go about getting the latest Slime ahead of next QL release?
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2018-06-25T16:01:42Z gendl: edit: I see Version 21 released here:  https://github.com/slime/slime/releases,  while Version 20 came with latest quicklisp. I'll go ahead and try installing version 21 (although I'm very spoiled on Slime installation with quicklisp-slime-helper).
2018-06-25T16:02:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has anyone had issues with cl+ssl after saving an image?
2018-06-25T16:03:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: gendl: yes, that error happens because an API changedi in emacs 26
2018-06-25T16:03:12Z Fade: gendl: set an explicit load path in your emacs' slime configuration.
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2018-06-25T16:03:26Z MichaelRaskin: Well, there might be problems if your pre- and post- environment is different and it cannot just reload the library by name
2018-06-25T16:03:29Z Fade: check out the slime repo and point emacs at it.
2018-06-25T16:03:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know if the latest release has the fix, but the git HEAD version did when I encountered this problem
2018-06-25T16:03:52Z MichaelRaskin: fiddlerwoaroof: I just hack the library paths before saving
2018-06-25T16:03:54Z gendl: Fade: all I do now is load quicklisp/slime-helper.el
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2018-06-25T16:04:07Z gendl: I don't have anything else regarding slime in my emacs configuration
2018-06-25T16:04:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: MichaelRaskin: this is on the same machine
2018-06-25T16:04:24Z MichaelRaskin: Environment variables?
2018-06-25T16:04:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: The error I'm getting when I run the image is [2018-06-25 08:56:24 [ERROR]] SSL initialization error: Can't create new SSL CTX
2018-06-25T16:05:11Z Fade: gendl: well, my emacs config is a bit eccentric, but there's a commented example in it setting an explicit load path: https://github.com/fade/dot-emacs
2018-06-25T16:05:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm running the binary from the same shell as the one I used to dump it
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2018-06-25T16:06:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's a minimal reproduction: https://lpaste.net/4412450981011259392
2018-06-25T16:08:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's a reproduction with backtrace: https://lpaste.net/4197350252799328256
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2018-06-25T16:18:22Z beach: flip214: Am I understanding you right that you don't feel confident telling me whether or not the GC specification you checked for me seems reasonable?
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2018-06-25T16:53:40Z littlelisper: can anyone please explain me what set-macro-character and get-macro-character do, in a simple language?
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2018-06-25T16:54:10Z flip214: beach: well, you wrote that you'll make the paper more explicit -- that's what I'm waiting for before giving an (a final) opinion.
2018-06-25T16:54:44Z Beep-Lord: clhs set-macro-character
2018-06-25T16:54:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_ma.htm
2018-06-25T16:55:29Z flip214: I hope that I can clean up all the things on my mind currently (do a brain-GC, more or less ;) to then be able to think about your paper in honest.
2018-06-25T16:56:16Z littlelisper: Beep-Lord: i get that they are used to make custom reader. but just tell me what it does on a high level
2018-06-25T16:56:27Z flip214: right now, I'm feeling out-of-memory and can't process any deep thoughts... I hope to change that later this week (Friday)
2018-06-25T16:57:02Z Beep-Lord: littlelisper, I have no idea; I've never used reader macros.
2018-06-25T16:58:01Z littlelisper: Beep-Lord: ok, i ll try to make sense of clhs
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2018-06-25T16:58:44Z Beep-Lord: try this:
2018-06-25T16:58:46Z Beep-Lord: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2018-06-25T16:58:58Z flip214: littlelisper: the macro character "#" dispatches to various reader function based (loosely) on the next character; this dispatch table can be read and set with this functions
2018-06-25T16:59:20Z Beep-Lord: littlelisper, it probably makes more sense than clhs
2018-06-25T17:01:26Z pjb: littlelisper:  to udnerstand them you have to read chapter 2. notably 2.2 Reader Algorithm.
2018-06-25T17:01:43Z Bike: littlelisper: when you set the reader macro function on some character, it means that when the reader hits that character at the start of something, it calls that function to get the read object.
2018-06-25T17:02:21Z pjb: littlelisper: basically, READ knows how to parse and read only 1- symbols, 2- integers, 3- floating-point numbers.  That's all.
2018-06-25T17:02:36Z pjb: littlelisper: all the rest is actually parsed by reader macros.
2018-06-25T17:03:14Z pjb: so the syntax of lisp is actually very simple, since it is almost entirely customizable.
2018-06-25T17:04:09Z pjb: err, also ratios, like  1/2.
2018-06-25T17:04:15Z mfiano: interesting, so #\/ knows how to read an integer before and after itself?
2018-06-25T17:04:18Z mfiano: ah :)
2018-06-25T17:04:52Z littlelisper: ah, thats alot
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2018-06-25T17:10:42Z littlelisper: (set-macro-character #\] (get-macro-character #\))). does this mean that the reader replaces ']' by ')'?
2018-06-25T17:11:17Z pjb: littlelisper: if reading something starting with ) makes any sense!  The reader macro on #\) just signals an error.
2018-06-25T17:11:52Z littlelisper: https://pastebin.com/39W0szN0
2018-06-25T17:12:18Z littlelisper: i was trying to make sense of this
2018-06-25T17:12:28Z pjb: littlelisper: notice that to read lists, READ uses a function similar to READ-DELIMITED-LIST (but not this function, since it is not able to read dotted-list).  This function can be used in a reader macro for #\[ to read lists terminated by #\].
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2018-06-25T17:13:26Z pjb: Now, the reader macro for #\) will probably mention #\( in its error message. This may not be the best choice for #\], since it would be confusing to the user.  It would be better to implement your own reader macro for #\] with a specific error message.
2018-06-25T17:14:07Z littlelisper: ok, i understand abit about reader macros now
2018-06-25T17:14:08Z pjb: Notice that you also want to make #\] a terminating reader macro, so you can write [a b c]  and not have to write [ a b c ] ; <- notice the space.
2018-06-25T17:14:42Z pjb: Happily, this is what happens by default (the optional non-terminating-p parameter is nil by default).
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2018-06-25T17:15:07Z littlelisper: would the space be an issue?
2018-06-25T17:15:46Z pjb: If the macro was non-terminating, it would be that if there was no space before, it wouldn't be interpreted as a reader macro, but as a consituent character of the previous token.
2018-06-25T17:16:22Z pjb: Just try it: (set-macro-character #\[ #'open-bracket-macro-character t)
2018-06-25T17:16:32Z pjb: then: '[a b c] d] ]
2018-06-25T17:16:49Z pjb: '[ foo[bar]baz foo [bar] baz ]
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2018-06-25T17:17:13Z pjb: Sometimes it's useful.
2018-06-25T17:17:45Z pjb: For example, # is a non-terminating reader macro: (quote (a#b c##d)) #| --> (|A#B| |C##D|) |#
2018-06-25T17:18:17Z pjb: See: (quote ((a #b100101) (a#b100101))) #| --> ((a 37) (|A#B100101|)) |#
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2018-06-25T17:29:17Z gendl: Fade: I just upgraded Slime the quick & easy (and probably dangerous) way -- manually copied the slime-2.21 into quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.21, then edited quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/installed/systems/swank.txt to point to that one.
2018-06-25T17:29:40Z gendl: It works, but I don't know what's going to happen when I next update quicklisp.
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2018-06-25T17:31:04Z gendl: Anyway, I usually install quicklisp clean each time anyway rather than trying to update in-place. That's probably overkill, but another reason I do it is to keep down the size of the quicklisp directories that we distribute ourselves with Gendl and Genworks GDL releases.
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2018-06-25T17:34:34Z beach: flip214: Got it, thanks.
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2018-06-25T17:50:27Z MichaelRaskin: beach: some cleanups help, but I am not sure how to break 30x slowdown in compilation speed. Or 30x runtime slowdown, but runtime doesn't feel completely absurd, at least.
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2018-06-25T18:16:01Z Fade: well, that's a way forward, I guess.
2018-06-25T18:16:17Z Fade: it seems more complicated to me, but as they say, mileage varies. :)
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2018-06-25T18:30:08Z makomo: gendl: your software is interesting stuff and a good showcase of what CL software looks like
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2018-06-25T18:30:51Z makomo: gendl: i think that you should make your videos' titles more descriptive though
2018-06-25T18:31:31Z makomo: gendl: for example "G102 Video 3" isn't very informative (and has no description either), and i think that's it's very interesting to see
2018-06-25T18:31:46Z makomo: including "common lisp" somewhere in the description as well would allow people to find common lisp stuff more easily as well :-)
2018-06-25T18:31:58Z makomo: gendl: just a few suggestions from me
2018-06-25T18:32:23Z makomo: (i'm watching the video because i'm interested in what the software does and how it's used btw)
2018-06-25T18:32:38Z makomo: i doubt i would ever find it if you hadn't showed up here and mentioned Gendl :-)
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2018-06-25T18:51:19Z Smokitch: What is the difference between generic dispatch and multiple dispatch? And is generic dispatch just called generic because of generic functions?
2018-06-25T18:51:52Z Bike: they're not different things
2018-06-25T18:53:21Z dlowe: "generic dispatch" is the process of calling the correct method given a generic function.
2018-06-25T18:53:42Z dlowe: "multiple dispatch" is the process of deciding which method is correct by using the types of multiple arguments.
2018-06-25T18:54:26Z dlowe: In other languages with "objects," typically generic dispatch is only based on the type of one of the parameters.
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2018-06-25T18:56:37Z makomo: and where does the adjective "generic" come from? i suppose it's just from the name "generic function", i.e. "the dispatch within a generic function"
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2018-06-25T18:56:54Z makomo: in that sense, "dispatch" == "generic dispatch"
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2018-06-25T19:02:07Z dlowe: I speculate that it's generic with respect to applying the function. The normal function call is a specific case of a generic function.
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2018-06-25T20:13:20Z Myon: svillemot: thanks for looking anyway
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2018-06-25T20:48:49Z MichaelRaskin: beach: and of course it is a completely different story what to do when a condition is signalled in the debugged thread…
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2018-06-25T21:03:54Z varjag: is there a simple way to convince hunchentoot to not treat + as whitespace in request parameters?
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2018-06-25T21:17:55Z TMA: varjag: it's defined so in the URL encoding scheme, that you can use + instead of %20
2018-06-25T21:19:15Z TMA: varjag: nothing hunchentoot specific
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2018-06-25T21:21:30Z White_Flame: %2B should be a literal plus sign
2018-06-25T21:22:02Z White_Flame: but you should probably be using a function to safely encode your parameters instead of special casing it
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2018-06-25T21:25:27Z varjag: + is permissible in post parameters
2018-06-25T21:25:29Z varjag: iirc
2018-06-25T21:25:43Z varjag: and it happens in base64 encoded argument
2018-06-25T21:26:14Z varjag: yes am replacing with %2B in the client for now, was just wondering
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2018-06-25T21:28:06Z White_Flame: oh, you're using POST?  what's the content-type of the header?
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2018-06-25T21:34:01Z varjag: good Q. it's whatever swift's URLRequest has on default
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2018-06-25T21:34:41Z varjag: can't see it documented anywhere
2018-06-25T21:35:04Z varjag: any way to check it in 'toot easy handler?
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2018-06-25T21:36:38Z White_Flame: the default is probably application/x-www-form-urlencoded
2018-06-25T21:37:24Z White_Flame: and yeah, that assumes + are spaces
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2018-06-25T21:38:41Z White_Flame: you can alteratively use multipart/form-data, which is used for file uploads
2018-06-25T21:39:32Z varjag: i see.. thanks!
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2018-06-25T21:45:10Z MichaelRaskin: beach: also an interesting question what exactly should happen for step-over for a form that contains a go or throw that might land inside or outside that form.
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2018-06-25T21:47:11Z White_Flame: in my experience in other languages with thrown exceptions, that tends to just continue running, unless you have "pause on exceptions" set
2018-06-25T21:47:32Z MichaelRaskin: We-ell
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2018-06-25T21:48:13Z MichaelRaskin: If I already take 30x hit for both compilation and runtime, adding actual logic for handling that might be a good idea…
2018-06-25T21:49:20Z MichaelRaskin: Not sure I can do portable signal handling right…
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2018-06-25T21:49:40Z MichaelRaskin: But at least go could be nice. For LOOP, for example.
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2018-06-25T22:16:47Z White_Flame: is there a moderator for #lispcafe?  kinda needs it as epony went there from here
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2018-06-25T22:21:54Z pjb: White_Flame: AFAIK, anybody can become operator.  See with freenode…
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2018-06-25T22:28:15Z White_Flame: #lispcafe is a single-octothorpe channel, not a double- one
2018-06-25T22:28:26Z White_Flame: so somebody owns the chanserv permissions
2018-06-25T22:28:40Z White_Flame: (to my understanding)
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2018-06-25T22:34:17Z mfiano: That would be rindolf
2018-06-25T22:34:43Z mfiano: And I have already emailed them, because Freenode staff doesn't care about it.
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2018-06-25T22:37:59Z White_Flame: phoe and zaquest also have ops, so ping for #lispcafe problems
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2018-06-25T22:59:19Z MichaelRaskin: beach: I am not sure throw between the instances of a recursive function can be distinguished in a portable way.
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2018-06-25T23:03:24Z White_Flame: why not?  if there's a potential throw destination in a stack frame, you can't tail recurse
2018-06-25T23:03:57Z White_Flame: erm, you can't perform tail recursion optimization
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2018-06-25T23:05:33Z MichaelRaskin: Hm right, in the function-wrapper I can also set a global frame counter
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2018-06-25T23:06:30Z White_Flame: sure, manually externalize your own stack of active handlers so you can let TCO do its thing unfettered
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2018-06-26T00:13:52Z mfiano: Xach: Will there be a June dist, or any subsequent months?
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2018-06-26T00:39:22Z Xach: mfiano: things look iffy for june. but i feel like things will start working soon.
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2018-06-26T00:41:58Z Beep-Lord: Is there a way to expand symbol macros?
2018-06-26T00:46:31Z MichaelRaskin: MACROEXPAND-1 works on them
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2018-06-26T01:12:05Z Xach: mfiano: i have to work through http://report.quicklisp.org/2018-06-25/failure-report.html and fix everything. some of it is my new debian 9 test environment, some of it is not.
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2018-06-26T01:16:38Z mfiano: Xach: Ah, that is a bit. Let me know if there is anything to help with.
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2018-06-26T01:20:45Z aeth: MichaelRaskin: How? I tried macroexpanding outside of the symbol-macrolet and inside and I couldn't get either. e.g. this just gives me (+ foo foo): (let ((bar 42)) (macroexpand-1 `(symbol-macrolet ((foo (expt bar 2))) (+ foo foo))))
2018-06-26T01:20:58Z aeth: I expect (+ (expt bar 2) (expt bar 2)) in the body of that
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2018-06-26T01:21:31Z aeth: I've tried moving the macroexpand-1 around in different places, and quoting and unquoting different things.
2018-06-26T01:21:33Z MichaelRaskin: When you macroexpand-1 with 1 argument, you are macroexpanding in the global environment
2018-06-26T01:21:51Z aeth: ah
2018-06-26T01:22:04Z MichaelRaskin: To notice a local symbol-macrolet — as well as for macrolet — you need to expand in the local lexical environment
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2018-06-26T01:22:23Z MichaelRaskin: The only method to obtain it is to be inside a macro-function
2018-06-26T01:22:36Z MichaelRaskin: Well, the only standard-described method
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2018-06-26T01:22:40Z Bike: functions are not implicitly aware of their caller's lexical environment
2018-06-26T01:22:42Z Bike: please rember
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2018-06-26T01:23:47Z MichaelRaskin: macro-function can be, though
2018-06-26T01:24:06Z MichaelRaskin: In defmacro you need to declare &environment parameter
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2018-06-26T01:24:42Z MichaelRaskin: (Also, macros + scope = fun effects that we don't talk about because we lack proper words for them)
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2018-06-26T01:35:40Z Bike: macro-function can be what
2018-06-26T01:37:50Z MichaelRaskin: A macroexpand-1 call cannot know the calling lexical environment, a macro expansion function defined with defmacro and used because of a macro invocation is allowed to be aware of lexical environment at the call site.
2018-06-26T01:38:01Z MichaelRaskin: (if declared with &environment)
2018-06-26T01:39:01Z Bike: i said "functions" not macros
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2018-06-26T01:57:10Z stacksmith: Good morning... Could someone confirm that in (defun foo(a) (macrolet ((bar (b) `(list ,b a)))...) bar's a is not foo's parameter a?  I am confused by CLHS example - it seems to imply that lexicals above the macrolet are not accessible, but later states the opposite...
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2018-06-26T02:04:37Z LdBeth: stacksmith: function body is macroexpand
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2018-06-26T02:06:22Z stacksmith: So the comment "The parameters x and flag are not accessible at this point" is referring to the macro-expansion function itself (as opposed to the expansion)   But then there is a really ominous "but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment", referring to the lexical environment of the macrolet definition.  That is sti
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2018-06-26T02:10:25Z stacksmith: In my book quasiquoting/splicing lexicals in the scope of the macro definition is a kind of a reference to a local variable binding (that seems to be prohibited).
2018-06-26T02:11:34Z LdBeth: but macrolet is not macro
2018-06-26T02:12:00Z LdBeth: So a is in the lexical scope
2018-06-26T02:12:49Z LdBeth: Or not, depending on the actual implementation of macrolet
2018-06-26T02:13:06Z stacksmith: LdBeth: could you clarify  - I've been thinking of macrolet as a local defmacro...
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2018-06-26T02:15:14Z Bike: the parameter a of foo shadows the outer parameter a.
2018-06-26T02:15:22Z Bike: er. wait. misread. durr.
2018-06-26T02:15:33Z Bike: the bar macro function the variable A is not even referred to
2018-06-26T02:15:35Z Bike: so there's no problem
2018-06-26T02:15:42Z Bike: in the bar macro function*
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2018-06-26T02:19:53Z stacksmith: Bike, SBCL happily expands foo's a right into the list.  I was assuming CLHS means to say that values of lexicals are not accessible to the expander (because it runs at compile time and only symbols are availble) but the macro is free to expand lexicals like in my example.  But it really says something else - and what it is I cannot figure out.
2018-06-26T02:20:27Z Bike: it does not expand foo's a into the list.
2018-06-26T02:21:27Z Bike: (defun foo (a) (macrolet ((bar (b) `(list ,b a))) (bar 'c))) is identical to (defun foo (a) (list 'c a))
2018-06-26T02:21:46Z Bike: the macro function doesn't know anything about A at all.
2018-06-26T02:22:08Z Bike: as you say, what CLHS means is that outer lexicals are not available to the expander.
2018-06-26T02:25:13Z stacksmith: Bike, please explain - if the macro function knows nothing about A... Does it not expand to (list  'c a)?  It has to know about the binding...
2018-06-26T02:25:34Z Bike: it does expand to (list 'c a), but doesn't know about the binding.
2018-06-26T02:25:43Z Bike: you could just as well write `(list ,b zweihander)
2018-06-26T02:26:00Z Bike: and get (defun foo (a) (list 'c zweihander)) and get an unbound variable error
2018-06-26T02:26:42Z LdBeth: I think CLHS means an proper implementation can let MACROLET use dynamic binding
2018-06-26T02:27:33Z Bike: No.
2018-06-26T02:28:44Z stacksmith: OK, I was considering the act of expander copying a name as knowing something about the binding, but I see that it's better to say it does not.  So all the warnings really have to do with the expander's environment, right?
2018-06-26T02:29:08Z Bike: Warnings?
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2018-06-26T02:30:18Z stacksmith: CLHS stating things like "but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment.".
2018-06-26T02:30:29Z Bike: you had the right idea with the compile time stuff.
2018-06-26T02:30:48Z Bike: if you have (let ((a (some-long-computation))) (macrolet ((foo () a)) ...)) it's a problem because obviously the long computation only happens at runtime
2018-06-26T02:31:13Z Bike: but ((foo () 'a)) is fine because it's not using the value, it's just returning a symbol that happens to name a variable sometimes.
2018-06-26T02:31:52Z White_Flame: stacksmith: issues like this is why many macros ask you to provide variables for them to use in bodies
2018-06-26T02:32:47Z White_Flame: ie, in  (with-open-file (stream "foo.txt") ...) you give it the variable named 'stream, instead of using a variable that it expands to and hope everything matches
2018-06-26T02:33:26Z White_Flame: but macrolet is always within a lexical scope, so if it expands references to lexical variables in its outer scope, that's a generally safe expansion
2018-06-26T02:33:35Z stacksmith: Yeah, that makes sense with macros that provide a lexical environment to the body... I was concerned with the opposite - a macro consuming the existing lexicals...
2018-06-26T02:33:54Z Bike: it can't use them at macro expansion time, but in the expansion it doesn't matter
2018-06-26T02:34:01Z White_Flame: the macro expansion code... yeah what Bike said
2018-06-26T02:34:42Z White_Flame: in the macrolet examples above, the value of lexical variable A is never accessed during the expansion.  It's simply a literal symbol in a source code expression that is being generated
2018-06-26T02:35:14Z White_Flame: so it's safe
2018-06-26T02:36:17Z stacksmith: I've always assumed that, but reading CLHS confused me a bit.  Probably because I was not thinking of bindings incorrectly and wrongly thought of symbols in a macro as bindings.  Obviously, they are just symbols at that point.
2018-06-26T02:36:45Z Bike: yes, exactly.
2018-06-26T02:36:56Z stacksmith: Many thanks.
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2018-06-26T02:42:15Z White_Flame: however, in classic LISPs there were f-expressions, which are sort of like macros, but take source code and execute it
2018-06-26T02:42:39Z White_Flame: there are libraries that emulate that behavior in CL
2018-06-26T02:43:04Z White_Flame: those things do have the full runtime per-invocation environment available to them
2018-06-26T02:43:06Z aeth: Afaik it's like using EVAL at runtime, and isn't very efficient, and that's why it got dropped
2018-06-26T02:43:11Z White_Flame: right
2018-06-26T02:43:38Z Bike: you can't really compile them and their existence further implies that the lexical environment has to be available at runtime
2018-06-26T02:43:51Z Bike: thus making almost every optimization a compiler does impossible
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2018-06-26T02:47:35Z stacksmith: Works well on a Lisp machine...
2018-06-26T02:48:27Z Bike: apparently not, according to pitman
2018-06-26T02:49:14Z stacksmith: I suppose having a Lisp machine does not alleviate the itch to optimize...
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2018-06-26T03:49:53Z asarch: Reading about CLOS and the way it does OOP, I've come to realize that is also possible (more or less) the same with the C programming language
2018-06-26T03:50:22Z asarch: You'll see, there is a widget toolkit to develop GUI-based apps
2018-06-26T03:50:28Z asarch: Its name is GTK+
2018-06-26T03:51:14Z asarch: It seems that the main developers of this widget toolkit knew about the CLOS techniques and they implemented across this toolkit
2018-06-26T03:52:04Z asarch: In C++ using GTK+, you could create a window with: Window my_window; and the change the properties with: window.set_tite("Hello GTK+ world!");
2018-06-26T03:52:25Z Bike: that's just normal C++ so far
2018-06-26T03:52:55Z Bike: window.set_title is a very single dispatch way to write it
2018-06-26T03:53:01Z asarch: On the other hand, with C you must: GtkWidget *my_window = gtk_window_new(); gtk_window_set_title(GTK_WINDOW(my_window), "Hello, GTK+ world!");
2018-06-26T03:53:15Z Bike: oh, that's how you meant
2018-06-26T03:53:24Z asarch: Which it resembles the general dispatch from CLOS
2018-06-26T03:53:32Z asarch: Yeah
2018-06-26T03:53:51Z Bike: how do you define methods on it
2018-06-26T03:54:32Z asarch: For every action to the window (resize it, clicked it, close it, etc), you must declare a callback function
2018-06-26T03:55:14Z Bike: are there actual multimethods
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2018-06-26T03:56:23Z asarch: This is, however, made it with the C style: void my_callback_for_a_click(); g_signal_connect(my_window, "clicked", my_callback_for_a_click, "somedata");
2018-06-26T03:56:40Z asarch: What do you mean with "multimethods"?
2018-06-26T03:57:07Z Bike: a function that can be specialized on any parameter or more than one parameter, instead of just one as in C++ dispatch.
2018-06-26T03:57:52Z p_l: asarch: creators of GTK+ wrote GIMP sometime after going crazy from writing a compiler in Common Lisp for assignment
2018-06-26T03:57:56Z asarch: Yeah, actually there is a function to "refresh" a widget on the screen: gtk_show(my_window); or gtk_show(my_button); or gtk_show(my_some_other_widget);
2018-06-26T03:58:00Z vtomole: Is there any situation where it is acceptable to write Lisp source in all caps?
2018-06-26T03:58:11Z asarch: YEAH! I WAS RIGHT!!!
2018-06-26T03:58:12Z Bike: to express your rage against the machine
2018-06-26T03:58:33Z Bike: it's called primal scream therapy
2018-06-26T03:58:41Z p_l: asarch: that said, it's far from CLOS
2018-06-26T03:58:50Z asarch: ?
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2018-06-26T03:59:09Z p_l: asarch: you might want to lookup "COS", "C Object System", which is as direct port of CLOS as possible :)
2018-06-26T03:59:29Z asarch digs...
2018-06-26T03:59:30Z p_l: GTK+'s object model is afaik pretty common for GUI toolkit in C
2018-06-26T04:00:36Z asarch: ...is it bad or is it good?
2018-06-26T04:00:56Z Bike: i think it's mainly just far from clos
2018-06-26T04:01:17Z asarch: Oh :-(
2018-06-26T04:01:19Z asarch: D'oh!
2018-06-26T04:02:39Z p_l: core WinAPI is quite similar, IIRC
2018-06-26T04:03:02Z asarch: Anyway, I just wanted to share this with you
2018-06-26T04:04:19Z asarch: I'll better keep reading the Sonja's book about CLOS....
2018-06-26T04:04:28Z asarch goes to read...
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2018-06-26T04:23:18Z aeth: How do you get the ftype of a function?
2018-06-26T04:23:29Z aeth: Someone asked in #lispcafe and I can't find it
2018-06-26T04:24:03Z Bike: no standard way
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2018-06-26T04:24:33Z pillton: p_l: Is what you said about the creators of GTK+ true?
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2018-06-26T04:25:33Z pillton: aeth: You need cltl2 support and it will only give you the declaration.
2018-06-26T04:26:34Z pillton: aeth: The function function-information in chapter 8.5 of CLtL2.
2018-06-26T04:27:13Z p_l: pillton: "A couple of students at Berkeley, Spencer Kimball and Peter Mattis, decided they wanted to write an image manipulation program rather than write a compiler in scheme/lisp for professor Fateman (CS164). "
2018-06-26T04:27:53Z p_l: GTK arrived after they got fed up with Motif
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2018-06-26T04:28:33Z pillton: p_l: Oh ok. Thanks.
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2018-06-26T04:34:01Z aeth: pillton: thanks
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2018-06-26T05:04:51Z aeth: I guess that's (introspect-environment:function-type 'car)
2018-06-26T05:04:59Z aeth: (or function-information)
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2018-06-26T05:06:51Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-26T05:08:49Z MichaelRaskin: Good morning
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2018-06-26T05:09:23Z beach: MichaelRaskin: In my specification, I wrote that the application may not stop if there is a non-local control transfer.
2018-06-26T05:10:49Z MichaelRaskin: Is GO non-local?
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2018-06-26T05:11:06Z beach: Not always.
2018-06-26T05:11:48Z MichaelRaskin: For step-over of (go 1)
2018-06-26T05:13:09Z beach: Actually, I don't think I specified non-local in the specification.  But to answer your question, you can't tell from the form itself whether it is non-local or not.
2018-06-26T05:13:56Z beach: It is local in (tagbody 1 ... (go 1)) but not in (tagbody 1 ... (f (lambda () (go 1))))
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2018-06-26T05:14:39Z beach: And I don't know that the Common Lisp HyperSpec actually specifies any difference.
2018-06-26T05:14:54Z beach: I think it mentions transfer to an exit point.
2018-06-26T05:15:47Z beach: clhs 5.2
2018-06-26T05:15:47Z specbot: Transfer of Control to an Exit Point: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_b.htm
2018-06-26T05:16:44Z beach: So, if the transfer is lexical, you can probably have the application stop, but if it is dynamic, then you might have to solve the halting problem.
2018-06-26T05:17:48Z MichaelRaskin: Well, for go unlike throw you still have to find yourself in instrumented area
2018-06-26T05:18:47Z beach: I don't know what that means.
2018-06-26T05:19:23Z beach: I guess "instrumented area" is specific to the way you do things.
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2018-06-26T05:22:49Z beach: But GO and RETURN-FROM are lexical, so you know statically where they end up.  Therefore, you can decide to stop at that exit point when you are about to evaluate a form like that.
2018-06-26T05:23:56Z MichaelRaskin: Yes
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2018-06-26T05:27:48Z pillton: aeth: Oh I forgot about introspect-environment. Sorry Bike.
2018-06-26T05:28:55Z MichaelRaskin: Actually, supporting GO and RETURN-FROM at the level of LOOP is already a bit annoying
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2018-06-26T05:31:19Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Why is that?
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2018-06-26T05:33:45Z MichaelRaskin: Getting special-casing right
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2018-06-26T05:41:28Z beach: MichaelRaskin: You speak in riddles as far as I am concerned.  But then, I am notorious for having a hard time understanding what people want to say here.
2018-06-26T05:42:03Z MichaelRaskin: Well, step-over is a nice and simple operation when there is no go/throw/return-from inside
2018-06-26T05:42:37Z beach: And I still don't know why LOOP is annoying.
2018-06-26T05:42:49Z beach: And I don't know why it is a special case.
2018-06-26T05:43:17Z MichaelRaskin: To support LOOP I need to support code has a lot of GO inside WHEN
2018-06-26T05:43:42Z beach: Not that it matters much that I don't understand.  I just wanted to let you know that I am not following.
2018-06-26T05:43:52Z MichaelRaskin: And to support that in STEP-OVER I need to implement some special cases carefully.
2018-06-26T05:44:35Z MichaelRaskin: I haven't yet, and debugging that code turns out to be a bit annoying.
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2018-06-26T10:02:33Z LdBeth uploaded an image: ima_0bf4f93.jpeg (556KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/UiBpynCyqVhBNvKlbIJnRXZo >
2018-06-26T10:02:34Z LdBeth: This year is a good year
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2018-06-26T11:06:06Z arkaros: Hello all lispers just curious what are you guys working with currently?
2018-06-26T11:06:25Z beach: minion: Please tell arkaros about SICL.
2018-06-26T11:06:25Z minion: arkaros: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2018-06-26T11:06:37Z beach: minion: Please tell arkaros about Cleavir.
2018-06-26T11:06:37Z minion: arkaros: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2018-06-26T11:08:11Z beach: arkaros: I am also working on Second Climacs: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2018-06-26T11:09:54Z beach: arkaros: Are you looking for things to work on?
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2018-06-26T11:10:53Z beach: arkaros: If so, here is a list of suggested projects (suggested by me): http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
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2018-06-26T11:12:41Z arkaros: Cool i will make sure to look in to it. I'm mostly looking for some lisp code to read and play around with. Im just getting in to lisp. Have some clojure experience but not much
2018-06-26T11:13:25Z beach: What kind of code are interested in looking at?
2018-06-26T11:13:39Z arkaros: Not sure hehe
2018-06-26T11:13:40Z jackdaniel: arkaros: there is a good book about Common Lisp: Practical Common Lisp
2018-06-26T11:13:45Z jackdaniel: minion: please tell arkaros about pcl
2018-06-26T11:13:45Z minion: arkaros: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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2018-06-26T11:14:06Z jackdaniel: it shows many important aspects of the language (it is a bit clos-centric though)
2018-06-26T11:14:37Z jackdaniel: for a different perspective you may take a look at ANSI Common Lisp by Paul Graham (you need to pay for this one though)
2018-06-26T11:14:37Z beach: arkaros: This project is fairly complete and uses CLOS a lot: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2018-06-26T11:14:37Z arkaros: Yeah i looked at that a bit. Do you know if it is possible to get that one in a mobi format. Would love to read it on my kindle
2018-06-26T11:15:04Z jackdaniel: arkaros: I think it is not possible, but who knows
2018-06-26T11:15:33Z jackdaniel: recently PAIP was released in a dead tree form, that should be possible to compile to mobi I think
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2018-06-26T11:15:45Z jackdaniel: another excellent book which studies various programs bit by bit
2018-06-26T11:15:58Z jackdaniel: I highly recommend this one too if you are interested in case studies
2018-06-26T11:16:21Z arkaros: Could you link it?
2018-06-26T11:16:43Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
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2018-06-26T11:19:37Z arkaros: Thanks you guys have been really nice. I would love to get in to lisp a bit more since I really like the simplicity (but at the same time complexity) of the language
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2018-06-26T11:20:36Z beach: arkaros: You can come here for advice when you start producing code.  Also, before deciding on what to install and how, you should ask advice.
2018-06-26T11:20:41Z beach: It is easy to get it wrong.
2018-06-26T11:21:53Z LdBeth: Where can I learn about funcallable instance?
2018-06-26T11:21:56Z arkaros: What i have installed now is SBCL and also set up quicklisp for it
2018-06-26T11:22:14Z beach: arkaros: You should also install SLIME for Emacs.
2018-06-26T11:22:18Z jackdaniel: that's the most common setup (+ emacs and slime)
2018-06-26T11:22:40Z beach: LdBeth: In the MOP book.
2018-06-26T11:22:40Z jackdaniel: also shinmera has prepackaged all these things in "Portacle"
2018-06-26T11:22:51Z jackdaniel: arkaros: https://portacle.github.io/ ←
2018-06-26T11:23:28Z LdBeth: Thanks. Haven’t checked that yet
2018-06-26T11:23:48Z beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-funcallable-standard-object.html
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2018-06-26T11:26:16Z arkaros: beach: I am actually a vim user
2018-06-26T11:26:38Z beach: Too bad.
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2018-06-26T11:27:15Z arkaros: I used to use emacs actually but i prefer vim since i think that it integrates better in my current work flow
2018-06-26T11:27:20Z LdBeth: Too bad
2018-06-26T11:28:19Z beach: arkaros: Then you should try to find something SLIME-like for vim.
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2018-06-26T11:28:55Z beach: arkaros: Otherwise your Common Lisp work flow will be seriously slowed down.
2018-06-26T11:29:40Z arkaros: I always have the option to jump back in to emacs too.
2018-06-26T11:30:06Z beach: Sure, if you can do that.  Some people seem unable to switch between editors.
2018-06-26T11:30:46Z arkaros: But at the moment I work as an android developer so i spend most of the time in android studio and use vim mostly for quick edits for git commits and README files
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2018-06-26T11:33:03Z jackdaniel: it is a shame that the only way to be productive in CL is to use emacs, which is pretty awkward editor if you ask me
2018-06-26T11:33:18Z jackdaniel: there is slimv for vim, but I don't know how well it works
2018-06-26T11:34:02Z arkaros: I quite liked emacs. Especially since i used spacemacs that had most of the config premade for me
2018-06-26T11:34:17Z arkaros: And with evil mode it was not that differnt from using vim any how
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2018-06-26T11:35:34Z beach: jackdaniel: What do you find awkward about it?
2018-06-26T11:35:39Z arkaros: The main issue for me is that I use the reminal quite heavily and the terminal emulator in emacs just wasn't that good imo and tmux+vim just made more sense to me
2018-06-26T11:35:54Z arkaros: terminal*;2~
2018-06-26T11:35:55Z LdBeth: There are several different IDE’s, although they are all Emacs like
2018-06-26T11:37:35Z LdBeth: That’s to say, they just happen to share a fair amount of keybindings, and they all use a dialect of lisp as config language.
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2018-06-26T11:43:19Z dim: jackdaniel: I prefer M-x shell over M-x term, and I've reduced my use of a terminal to almost nil these days
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2018-06-26T11:43:38Z dim: oh sorry I think that was directed at arkaros
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2018-06-26T11:47:38Z arkaros: But i actually prefer the terminal to almost any tool i have used so far. For instance git integration is mostly just a wrapper around the command line git client. Quite often i find my self needing to to something custom and need to jump back in to the terminal and run git from there so I though why no use it directly
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2018-06-26T11:51:52Z dim: the terminal is not the same thing as the shell, what you're talking about seems to be a shell, and M-x shell provides a very nice environment wherein to run shell commands
2018-06-26T11:52:09Z dim: then there's M-x eshell too, but I'm yet to play with that, even though I hear it's pretty awesome
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2018-06-26T12:00:05Z devon: (loop with a = (list 1 2 3) for b on a when (evenp (car b)) do (push -1 (cdr b)) finally (return a)) ; result specified or unspecified?
2018-06-26T12:01:12Z beach: devon: Unspecified I believe.
2018-06-26T12:01:38Z devon: Trying to find the relevant section in the spec.
2018-06-26T12:01:51Z beach: devon: But, instead of using the ON loop keyword, you can use FOR B = A then (CDR B)
2018-06-26T12:01:53Z arkaros: -1
2018-06-26T12:02:20Z beach: devon: Let me see if I can find it for you...
2018-06-26T12:03:03Z beach: clhs 3.6
2018-06-26T12:03:03Z specbot: Traversal Rules and Side Effects: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm
2018-06-26T12:03:29Z devon: Thanks, "traversal" of course...
2018-06-26T12:03:50Z beach: devon: But you can easily get around the problem like I suggested.
2018-06-26T12:04:00Z LdBeth: devon: (1 2 3)
2018-06-26T12:04:09Z beach: LdBeth: What?
2018-06-26T12:04:39Z devon: LdBeth: Lol, in which implementation?
2018-06-26T12:05:09Z beach: LdBeth: What happens in a particular implementation does not determine what is specified or unspecified by the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2018-06-26T12:05:15Z LdBeth: Xdevon: both CCL and Emacs’s cl-loop
2018-06-26T12:05:27Z devon: Definitely not in CCL
2018-06-26T12:06:04Z devon: Nor in emacs
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2018-06-26T12:07:11Z beach: devon: (loop with a = (list 1 2 3) for b = a then (cdr b) until (null b) when (evenp (car b)) do (push -1 (cdr b)) finally (return a))
2018-06-26T12:07:25Z LdBeth: How does FOR keyword different from WITH?
2018-06-26T12:07:41Z devon: with is once, for is every time
2018-06-26T12:08:35Z beach: devon: Oh, sorry, perhaps you weren't interested in doing this at all, just in knowing the relevant section in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2018-06-26T12:11:03Z devon: Perhaps I should not hack before breakfast, I forget essential things like where to look in the spec - but I did want to know whether to use ON vs. = a then (cdr b)
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2018-06-26T12:11:27Z devon: beach: Thanks again.
2018-06-26T12:11:34Z beach: Sure.
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2018-06-26T12:17:15Z jackdaniel: beach: sorry, didn't have this terminal open. for once, the way buffers jump into each other is incomprehensible - it is impossible to have a static frame layout for me. other than that, it is a tool impossible to master for me – I know less than 5% of it despite exclusive use for around 8 years (and getting it to usable state as a text editor took me > month, so the learning curve is not quite steep)
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2018-06-26T12:18:36Z jackdaniel: I could think of many other things, but the first one is the most annoying (and I'm sure there is some magic combo of settings and elisp scripts which solves that); second one is a dreadful blocker for many people I try to convince to use CL (and I really don't like emacs myself, despite said exclusive use)
2018-06-26T12:19:33Z beach: I understand.
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2018-06-26T12:36:20Z dim: jackdaniel: I'm using several packages to tame the layout problems
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2018-06-26T12:37:40Z dim: jackdaniel: escreen and popwin
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2018-06-26T12:38:25Z dim: popwin is pretty good at maintaining your layout, and worst case, C-g gets you back to the one you like in many situations
2018-06-26T12:38:32Z dim: I also have: C-c <left> runs the command winner-undo
2018-06-26T12:39:05Z dim: but we're shifting to Emacs topic rather than CL here, sorry about that, I guess it's still relevant as it helps with using SLIME…
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2018-06-26T12:57:35Z jmercouris: I'm trying to make a sort of "lazy list" type object that you can iterate for
2018-06-26T12:57:49Z jmercouris: so for example (loop for element in lazy_list do ...)
2018-06-26T12:57:59Z jmercouris: I want it to only generate or get element when it gets to that item
2018-06-26T12:58:04Z jmercouris: how can I do this?
2018-06-26T12:59:14Z jmercouris: is there a generator paradigm equivalent in lisp?
2018-06-26T12:59:59Z jmercouris: this seems to be what I'm looking for: https://github.com/BnMcGn/snakes
2018-06-26T13:00:11Z Bike: usually you just use thunks, like in sicp
2018-06-26T13:00:34Z jmercouris: thunks?
2018-06-26T13:00:40Z dlowe: functions with no arguments
2018-06-26T13:00:49Z Bike: which is whatthis library seems to be doing too.
2018-06-26T13:00:51Z dim: there's also the SERIES system I think
2018-06-26T13:01:06Z jmercouris: dlowe: Oh, I see
2018-06-26T13:01:07Z nirved: jmercouris: http://cl-heresy.sourceforge.net/Heresy.htm
2018-06-26T13:01:10Z dim: jmercouris: have a look at https://www.cliki.net/Series
2018-06-26T13:01:14Z dlowe: (loop for x = (funcall (lambda () (get-next))) ...)
2018-06-26T13:01:34Z dlowe: Series would be a lot better if it were built into the implementation
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2018-06-26T13:01:38Z jmercouris: dlowe: aha, that is very simple indeed
2018-06-26T13:02:08Z jmercouris: dim: also interesting, but I prefer no external dependencies when possible
2018-06-26T13:02:15Z jmercouris: I like dlowe's solution simpley enough
2018-06-26T13:02:17Z dlowe: The current implementation is non-composable.
2018-06-26T13:02:18Z dim: oh you're a NOH person, ok
2018-06-26T13:02:26Z dim: I meant to write NIH, oops
2018-06-26T13:02:35Z jmercouris: dim: No, I'm a carefully select dependencies here type person
2018-06-26T13:02:55Z jmercouris: I do use dependencies in my projects, but sparingly
2018-06-26T13:03:37Z dim: and that's not the same thing?
2018-06-26T13:03:47Z jmercouris: no, it isn't
2018-06-26T13:04:03Z jmercouris: I don't think using a thunk is reinventing the wheel
2018-06-26T13:04:11Z jmercouris: if several people in the channel know about it, it must be a pretty consistent pattern
2018-06-26T13:04:20Z jmercouris: s/consistent/common
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2018-06-26T13:05:13Z dim: well it's always the same thing, it begins with a single simple enough use case than reusing known tricks is good, and then you take it to the next level, with a couple of API calls abstracted over the technique, and... soon enough you reinvented the lib you didn't want to import
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2018-06-26T13:05:31Z dim: hindsight is 20/20 as they say
2018-06-26T13:05:53Z dim: so it's not easy to differienciate NIH from reusing known techniques on your own code, in my opinion
2018-06-26T13:06:11Z warweasle: dim:  For warned is for armed.
2018-06-26T13:06:19Z dim: I prefer to say that it's the same thing, and not call NIH bad per-se, but only most occurences of it
2018-06-26T13:07:00Z warweasle: Also, anyone who has four arms is psychic because four armed is forewarned.
2018-06-26T13:07:20Z jmercouris: I'm weary, lisp may be a new language to me, but I've been a developer for many years
2018-06-26T13:08:12Z jmercouris: I therefore understand and appreciate your advice, but given my context, and my application this problem, I think dlowes approach is sufficient
2018-06-26T13:08:14Z dim: lisp is very different than most other languages in that a lib that has received no commit in the last 5 years is pretty good news, usually means it just works
2018-06-26T13:08:44Z jmercouris: definitely, I've used plenty of very old libs, like s-xml-rpc
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2018-06-26T13:13:16Z random-nick: jmercouris: what do you need the lazy list for?
2018-06-26T13:13:45Z jmercouris: random-nick: an expensive operation
2018-06-26T13:14:04Z random-nick: if you're only going to use it for writing iteration in functional style then you should use something like SERIES
2018-06-26T13:14:10Z jmercouris: No need to do all of the expensive operations at once, since the expensive operation is also I/O blocked
2018-06-26T13:14:16Z jackdaniel: dim: thanks, I'll look into these packages
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2018-06-26T13:34:28Z dlowe: series strikes me as a thing you either want to use everywhere or not at all
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2018-06-26T13:49:52Z kuribas: if I make an array with (make-array 8 :element-type '(signed-byte 8)), does it use efficient storage?
2018-06-26T13:50:04Z kuribas: (8 bytes)
2018-06-26T13:50:13Z kuribas: + some header stuff
2018-06-26T13:50:32Z beach: kuribas: Depends on the implementation.
2018-06-26T13:50:44Z kuribas: beach: sbcl
2018-06-26T13:51:25Z trittweiler: kuribas: (upgraded-array-element-type '(signed-byte 8)) will tell you the actual element-type that your implementation uses
2018-06-26T13:51:50Z beach: kuribas: I am not sure.
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2018-06-26T13:52:32Z kuribas: trittweiler: it returns (SIGNED-BYTE 8)
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2018-06-26T13:53:41Z trittweiler: kuribas: So that should mean that it will use a byte to store the elements. You can play with upgraded-array-element-type, e.g. try '(signed-byte 11) or '(signed-byte 65)
2018-06-26T13:54:35Z kuribas: trittweiler: interestingly, 52 returns FIXNUM, 65 returns T
2018-06-26T13:55:26Z trittweiler: That sounds quite reasonable to me :)
2018-06-26T13:55:48Z trittweiler: T means here that it will be an array of pointers.
2018-06-26T13:56:07Z kuribas: trittweiler: what about fixnum?
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2018-06-26T13:58:25Z beach: kuribas: Fixnum means a number that will fit in a pointer.  As I recall, SBCL has a single tag bit for fixnums, so a fixnum contains 63 significant bits.
2018-06-26T13:58:28Z trittweiler: kuribas: Lisps usually uses tagged pointers. This means that some bits of each pointer are used to represent types (the "tag"). A fixnum is a pointer where non-tag bits represent a number
2018-06-26T13:58:44Z Xach: re tcr
2018-06-26T13:59:26Z kuribas: I see.  Haskell does that as well.
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2018-06-26T14:00:22Z beach: kuribas: But it probably doesn't have to.  In a dynamically typed language like Common Lisp, objects must be tagged so that the type can be determined at run time.
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2018-06-26T14:02:19Z scymtym: tags can be omitted within specialized arrays, though
2018-06-26T14:02:28Z xificurC: I would be surprised if haskell did that
2018-06-26T14:02:44Z xificurC: in the final compiled representation
2018-06-26T14:02:44Z beach: xificurC: What, tagging objects?
2018-06-26T14:02:51Z xificurC: beach: yes
2018-06-26T14:03:07Z beach: xificurC: It is sometimes used in order to simplify the garbage collector.
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2018-06-26T14:03:38Z xificurC: beach: true, forgot about that. Will have to check
2018-06-26T14:03:58Z kuribas: beach: I presume it's because of thunks
2018-06-26T14:04:53Z kuribas: beach: to enable integers to be lazy
2018-06-26T14:05:12Z beach: kuribas: I don't understand.
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2018-06-26T14:06:06Z kuribas: beach: values in haskell can be unevaluated, and the compiler must be able to check for that.
2018-06-26T14:06:49Z beach: Sure, but I don't see why tag bits would be required for that.
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2018-06-26T14:07:37Z xificurC: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/A_Miscellany_of_Types  -  "Int" is the more common 32 or 64 bit integer. Implementations vary, although it is guaranteed to be at least 30 bits.
2018-06-26T14:07:40Z kuribas: to differentiate between evaluated numbers and thunks
2018-06-26T14:08:03Z xificurC: so some space is left for the implementations to use as desired I guess
2018-06-26T14:08:58Z beach: Anyway, tagging in GHC is explained here: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Rts/HaskellExecution/PointerTagging
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2018-06-26T14:14:28Z kuribas: xificurC: ghc is de de-facto standard implementation.
2018-06-26T14:15:22Z xificurC: kuribas: you mean the only implementation that survived and has so many non-standardized but useful extensions that noone is considering any other options?
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2018-06-26T14:15:33Z kuribas: xificurC: basically yes
2018-06-26T14:16:22Z kuribas: xificurC: also the most advanced in terms of optimizations and code generation.
2018-06-26T14:17:16Z xificurC: kuribas: I think jhc was very good too, not sure what happened to it. But we're getting off topic now
2018-06-26T14:17:53Z beach: Indeed.
2018-06-26T14:18:41Z beach: Lucky for us, we have several good implementations that all seem to survive.
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2018-06-26T14:19:33Z kuribas: beach: it seems that Int and Int64 are the same.  So I suppose the two reserved bits are intended for tagging, but not used in ghc...
2018-06-26T14:19:42Z xificurC: beach: I think the CL standard is a bit more feature complete :)
2018-06-26T14:20:14Z beach: kuribas: As xificurC pointed out, we should get back to the topic.
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2018-06-26T17:41:38Z makomo: what would be the difference between: (1) an accessor, (2) a place and (3) a generalized reference? i suppose (2) == (3) but (1) is the name of the operator within *some* of the places (some places might not use an accessor). is this right?
2018-06-26T17:43:27Z Inline: an acessor, is an acessor, they can be either read or both (read-write)
2018-06-26T17:43:36Z Bike: according to the glossary, an accessor is an operator that performs an access, and an access is to read or write a place.
2018-06-26T17:43:50Z Inline: a place as a storage, can be both read and writ
2018-06-26T17:44:01Z Inline: unless prohibited
2018-06-26T17:45:04Z makomo: Bike: yes, i've checked out the glossary first, but for example, (setf a 10)
2018-06-26T17:45:11Z makomo: supposing a is not a symbol-macro, is a an accessor?
2018-06-26T17:45:25Z Bike: it's not an operator,so i guessnot.
2018-06-26T17:45:27Z makomo: i don't think so, it's only a place/generalized reference
2018-06-26T17:45:31Z makomo: right
2018-06-26T17:45:49Z makomo: so not all places/generalized references have operators/accessors within them
2018-06-26T17:46:14Z makomo: but can every accessor be used as a place?
2018-06-26T17:46:27Z Inline: when it can be writ to yes
2018-06-26T17:46:40Z makomo: ah, true
2018-06-26T17:46:55Z makomo: right, one might provide F but not (SETF F)
2018-06-26T17:47:01Z Inline: otherwise there are read-only acessors, in which case you don't call them acessors or so
2018-06-26T17:47:14Z Inline: just a read-only slot
2018-06-26T17:47:20Z makomo: well, you'd still call them accessors, as per the glossary
2018-06-26T17:47:24Z Inline: ah ok then
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2018-06-26T17:47:39Z makomo: also, they don't have to read/write slots do they
2018-06-26T17:47:53Z makomo: you can write an """accessor""" that does something completely different
2018-06-26T17:48:06Z makomo: well, doing something dumb would be an extreme example
2018-06-26T17:48:10Z Inline: sorry, i mean an acessor is a slot
2018-06-26T17:48:11Z makomo: but it could set a global variable for example
2018-06-26T17:48:15Z Inline: rather than has a slot
2018-06-26T17:48:20Z makomo: that's not right though
2018-06-26T17:48:24Z makomo: an accessor is an *operator*
2018-06-26T17:48:28Z makomo: the glossary says so
2018-06-26T17:48:35Z Inline: well yes ofc
2018-06-26T17:48:50Z makomo: right, so it can't be a slot, but it *might* fiddle around with a slot
2018-06-26T17:48:53Z makomo: although it doesn't have to
2018-06-26T17:48:59Z makomo: so the two aren't directly related
2018-06-26T17:50:29Z makomo: so places == generalized references, but accessors are a thing of their own and could be used within places
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2018-06-26T17:51:30Z Inline: maybe i should have said, it's an operator, defined in the context of a slot (but the slot can name it's acessors name, so it's independent of it) and it can fiddle with anything it's designed to
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2018-06-26T17:53:26Z Inline: if the accessors name happens to be referencing a function (i.e. pointing to it) then it will be a function, otherwise it can be anything
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2018-06-26T17:54:23Z Inline: function, macro.....
2018-06-26T17:55:21Z Inline: or am i wrong ?
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2018-06-26T17:59:26Z makomo: Inline: an accessor doesn't necessarily have anything to do with slots. DEFCLASS has the option of defining accessor for your slots for you, but all it does is define a function of the same name that sets the object's slot
2018-06-26T17:59:30Z makomo: the two aren't directly related
2018-06-26T17:59:40Z makomo: i could also have an accessor with the name FOO that sets a slot named BAR
2018-06-26T17:59:58Z makomo: i could also have an accessor FOO that sets a global variable called *HELLO*
2018-06-26T18:00:51Z makomo: and/or reads it as well
2018-06-26T18:01:11Z makomo: of defining accessors*
2018-06-26T18:01:38Z makomo: also, in the context of DEFCLASS, they're not plain functions but generic functions/methods
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2018-06-26T18:10:52Z Inline: ya ok
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2018-06-26T21:00:55Z edgar-rft: dtornabene, maybe because nobody can tell what time it is in outer space right now
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2018-06-26T22:05:26Z dxtr: So is there a complete list of all the quicklisp packages with the description of each package?
2018-06-26T22:06:25Z dxtr: The reason I'm asking is because I want to code something but I can't really come up with anything fun to do so I was hoping to get some inspiration from that list :)
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2018-06-26T22:29:42Z Beep-Lord: dxtr, port Perl 6's grammars to lisp. I would be eternally grateful.
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2018-06-26T22:37:25Z pillton: dxtr: I got as far as (map nil (lambda (s) (print (ql-dist:short-description s))) (ql:provided-systems (ql-dist:find-dist "quicklisp"))).
2018-06-26T22:37:45Z mfiano: beach has a list here http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html
2018-06-26T22:38:22Z pillton: dxtr: I don't think long descriptions are part of the quicklisp distribution metadata.
2018-06-26T22:41:18Z mfiano: I would urge you to a) work on something in Lisp, rather than some foreign bindings, and b) work on something that would benefit the Lisp ecosystem -- if it's duplicated work, it should be for good reason, but there are lots of areas untouched still that would benefit all.
2018-06-26T22:42:36Z mfiano: So looking at a list of existing Lisp software may or may not be a good idea. It'd be a good idea if it's to check what is not already available.
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2018-06-26T22:52:56Z pillton: I don't understand people's aversion to foreign bindings.
2018-06-26T22:54:28Z Beep-Lord: pillton, it's pretty much all I do. I wrote a library to help me change functionality of foreign libraries on the fly because I do it a lot it seems.
2018-06-26T22:54:32Z akkad: ,clhs foreign binding
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2018-06-26T22:56:43Z aeth: pillton: It turns debugging and packaging binaries into a nightmare.
2018-06-26T22:57:51Z aeth: And you lose all safety.
2018-06-26T22:58:46Z mfiano: and it's not Lisp and cannot conform to a standard that enables less bitrot.
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2018-06-26T22:59:58Z pillton: I understand the issues surrounding debugging. The binary packaging can be fixed. People don't complain about having to ship resources like images, video, 3D meshes and the like.
2018-06-26T23:00:39Z aeth: Resources are ideally the same thing on every platform. Compiled C libraries are not.
2018-06-26T23:01:13Z pillton: You can't ship platform independent lisp applications.
2018-06-26T23:02:27Z aeth: Compiling CL that works on both Linux and Windows is a completely different thing than compiling C than works on both Linux and Windows.
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2018-06-26T23:03:14Z aeth: For one, you can use SBCL on both Linux and Windows. You'd generally use an entirely different C compiler on Linux than on Windows afaik.
2018-06-26T23:03:28Z aeth: So now you have cross-implementation issues as well as cross-OS issues.
2018-06-26T23:03:43Z pillton: You have cross platform issues anyway with pathnames.
2018-06-26T23:04:22Z Beep-Lord: clhs pathname
2018-06-26T23:04:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_pn.htm
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2018-06-26T23:11:57Z aeth: pillton: UIOP
2018-06-26T23:12:30Z mfiano: Side topic: If I were to develop a large project with many tens or even hundreds of files offering a wide variety of functionality, that has already been decided not to be split up into several systems for internal reasons, my first instinct would be to split it up logically into multiple packages. I've never developed such monolithic applications apart a few game engines where package exports and the like soon
2018-06-26T23:12:32Z mfiano: became a problem. I'm wondering if anyone has developed very large systems using a different packaging scheme. My primary concern is preventing myself and other the other developers from maintaining an internal use API with exports, and a user API in parallel, because I dislike accessing un-exported symbols cross-package with ::. Thoughts?
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2018-06-26T23:13:46Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2018-06-26T23:16:13Z Beep-Lord: Does anyone know how big the binary for ECL is?
2018-06-26T23:16:31Z pillton: aeth: UIOP is a common lisp system designed to address incompatibilities across common lisp implementations. The same approach could be used to solve the C issues you mentioned.
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2018-06-26T23:17:18Z White_Flame: just get cracking on a C&C++->Lisp "transpiler"
2018-06-26T23:18:16Z White_Flame: it's not like it's without precedent
2018-06-26T23:19:22Z White_Flame: and for binaries, just do like console emulators and dynarec x86/64 to CL :)
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2018-06-26T23:20:46Z Beep-Lord: Has there been any work started on dynarec for CL?
2018-06-26T23:20:59Z pillton: What is the likelihood of finding people willing and capable of implementing things like eigen decomposition, singular value decomposition, image codecs and video codecs in CL?
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2018-06-26T23:21:11Z ebrasca: Is there some cache system in common lisp for file systems?
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2018-06-26T23:22:23Z pfdietz: mfiano:  use of :: is a code smell.
2018-06-26T23:22:49Z slyrus_: pillton, i'm guessing there are many svd implementations in CL
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2018-06-26T23:23:21Z ebrasca: pfdietz: What is bad with :: ?
2018-06-26T23:23:31Z pillton: slyrus_: Sure, but I bet most of them are the power method.
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2018-06-26T23:26:50Z pfdietz: If you use ::, you are exposing the entire inside of a package to your use.  The maintainer of that package either can't change anything, or can break what you're depending on.   Exported symbols, on the other hand, are the public interface that can be held steady.
2018-06-26T23:29:04Z ebrasca: pfdietz: I am using some functions with :: .
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2018-06-26T23:34:27Z White_Flame: I use in on rare occasion where 1 package that I control needs to do some deep-dive into another packaget that I also control, for some lower level stuff that I really don't want public
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2018-06-26T23:36:03Z White_Flame: and of course, it's always encapsulated in a small utility function
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2018-06-26T23:42:17Z aeth: White_Flame: I have an idea to use a C->CL that uses CFFI data structures
2018-06-26T23:43:02Z aeth: So in some sense, it would be 'real' C.
2018-06-26T23:43:34Z aeth: Perhaps LLVM IR would be better, if it's high level enough (never looked at it)
2018-06-26T23:44:34Z pillton: aeth: The fundamental principles of Microsoft's Component Object Model are sufficient.
2018-06-26T23:45:18Z pillton apologises for the tautology.
2018-06-26T23:45:36Z pillton: aeth: Which can be implemented using CFFI alone.
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2018-06-26T23:46:45Z aeth: Let's say that there's a function and the function is defun'd under a top-level let to get variables that persist across calls to that function. How would this interact with threads?
2018-06-26T23:47:09Z aeth: The function would always be called in the same thread, but not the thread where it was defined.
2018-06-26T23:48:27Z Bike: are you asking how threads and closures go together?
2018-06-26T23:48:35Z pillton: I doubt there would be a lexical environment per thread if that is what you are asking.
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2018-06-26T23:49:22Z aeth: Would there be a performance issue with such a closure being accessible to all threads? The potential to be out of sync?
2018-06-26T23:49:40Z aeth: Would it need locks/etc.?
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2018-06-26T23:50:07Z Bike: i would expect access to closure variables to be atomic
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2018-06-26T23:59:06Z pillton: There was a blog post about this subject years and years ago. Something about lock free communication between threads. I think it was by Christophe Rhodes or Paul Khuong but I cannot find it.
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2018-06-27T00:00:05Z pillton: It would have to be before 2013 because that is when I used it in a project.
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2018-06-27T01:58:39Z didi: How would you compare the memory usage of different data structures? For example, between a list, a vector, and a hash-table, all of them with 10 k elements.
2018-06-27T02:02:26Z mfiano: That is implementation-specific. Also, lists may share structure.
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2018-06-27T02:03:16Z akkad: like shared hashes vs non-shared
2018-06-27T02:03:18Z didi: mfiano: Indeed. I want to compare them using my implementation.
2018-06-27T02:05:01Z didi: I don't want to make a general statement. Just compare these things inside my own program.
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2018-06-27T02:06:58Z mfiano: Youre going to have a hard time. At best you can use ROOM to get an approximation at any point in time, garbage collection aside.
2018-06-27T02:07:17Z Jachy: A portable hack might be to load up the data in one data structure and call (room), exit, rerun with the other data structure...
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2018-06-27T02:08:28Z didi: Thank you.
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2018-06-27T02:19:50Z LdBeth: Can someone explain what’s the precedence list of class
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2018-06-27T02:22:40Z mfiano: it's a flattened view from that class to T, with every super-class in between.
2018-06-27T02:23:19Z mfiano: it's literally a list of ordered class objects
2018-06-27T02:25:05Z LdBeth: Does it regenerated after any super-class is updated?
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2018-06-27T02:25:26Z montxero: Hey guys
2018-06-27T02:25:37Z pfdietz: Yes it is.
2018-06-27T02:26:05Z LdBeth: Thank you guys
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2018-06-27T02:26:39Z montxero: Quick question... I have some functions in funcs.lisp and I want to use them in a differnt file other_funcs.lisp. How do I achieve that
2018-06-27T02:26:47Z montxero: On common lisp sbcl
2018-06-27T02:27:03Z Bike: just do it
2018-06-27T02:27:05Z mfiano: You need to learn about ASDF
2018-06-27T02:27:22Z mfiano: You typically don't manually load files, but systems.
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2018-06-27T02:27:33Z LdBeth: If you don’t want write asdf, just (LOAD file)
2018-06-27T02:27:43Z montxero: Thanks <mfiano>, I am just starting out with lisp
2018-06-27T02:28:06Z mfiano: I would suggest reading PCL. It's free online
2018-06-27T02:28:27Z montxero: Is it possible to achieve this before having to learn about packaging and all that
2018-06-27T02:29:26Z montxero: for something as simple as importing a couple of sorting functions, surely one doesnt have to worry about asdf, quicklisp and the like
2018-06-27T02:30:00Z montxero: Thanks LsBeth
2018-06-27T02:30:08Z montxero: Ldbeth**
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2018-06-27T02:32:48Z Bike: yeah. just load one file then load the other file.
2018-06-27T02:32:49Z Jachy: didi:  Your Q also reminded me of this blog post that I read not too long ago, SBCL's memory profiler is pretty cool.. http://unthought.net/2016/12/22-lisp-memory-woes-but-not/
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2018-06-27T02:35:26Z didi: Jachy: Cool, thank you.
2018-06-27T02:35:39Z didi: Incidentally, I'm using SBCL.
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2018-06-27T02:37:49Z aeth: didi: It also depends on what you're storing. If you're storing (unsigned-byte 8)s or single-floats or bits, etc., you could use :element-type in make-array
2018-06-27T02:38:31Z aeth: 10k bits in a bit-vector are probably going to be better than 10k conses storing bits
2018-06-27T02:38:38Z didi: aeth: Thank you.
2018-06-27T02:39:22Z didi: Like I said, I don't want to make any general statement. Just compare my program memory usage by using different data structures.
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2018-06-27T02:44:03Z mfiano: That seems a strange request
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2018-06-27T02:45:12Z didi: Yeah? Oh well.
2018-06-27T02:46:19Z slyrus_: Hmm... tried to say this before, but I guess the network died.
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2018-06-27T02:46:27Z slyrus_: I see TBRSS has shut down. What was TBRSS?
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2018-06-27T02:48:00Z slyrus_: hey pjb is the com.informatigo stuff no longer in quicklisp?
2018-06-27T02:48:07Z slyrus_: informatimago
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2018-06-27T02:48:51Z Jachy: Looks like all the TBRSS stuff got moved to ruricolist: https://github.com/ruricolist
2018-06-27T02:49:35Z mfiano: pjb's informatigo has been missing from Quicklisp for quite a while.
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2018-06-27T02:50:17Z Jachy: (TBRSS was an rss reader and I think you could sign up to have it archive things for you similar to Pinboard, but there's a lot of open source lisp code the author released around it.)
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2018-06-27T02:52:40Z mfiano: slyrus_: Do note that com.informatigo is released under the terms of the GNU AGPL, and may not be compatible with a great deal of other Lisp software.
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2018-06-27T02:53:38Z slyrus_: ok, thanks mfiano and Jachy. looking to replace pjb's html generator with something else.
2018-06-27T02:53:56Z mfiano: Speaking of TBRSS, may I recommend his html generator?
2018-06-27T02:54:40Z mfiano: It was by far the most pleasant to work with to me after trying more than a handful over the last few years
2018-06-27T02:54:49Z mfiano: It's called spinneret
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2018-06-27T02:56:06Z slyrus_: hah! I tried that but it doesn't build on ABCL :(
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2018-06-27T02:58:56Z didi: Uh, I didn't know SBCL could profile memory allocation. This is great. Thank you, Jachy, for the article.
2018-06-27T03:00:42Z uncommon_lisp: sbcl can do anything! :}
2018-06-27T03:01:03Z slyrus_: except play nice with the JVM
2018-06-27T03:01:11Z uncommon_lisp: But who needs that?
2018-06-27T03:02:54Z Jachy: Has anyone tried making a Clojure <-> ABCL bridge? They're just two jars.. :) But then you could use Hiccup.
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2018-06-27T03:46:22Z akkad: oddly some distros have better java interropt :P
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2018-06-27T03:59:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-27T04:00:03Z beach: mfiano: I developed Cluffer that way, i.e. using several packages and an internal protocol.
2018-06-27T04:00:46Z montxero: Thanks <mfiano> and others. It turns out I what I needed to do was to compile the functions in my current instance of slime/sbcl.
2018-06-27T04:01:01Z pillton: Compile and load.
2018-06-27T04:01:23Z montxero: mfiano: following your advise, I will not use load for individual functions. Thanks
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2018-06-27T04:04:28Z mfiano: beach: Yeah it does seem the way to go, and what has worked well for very large projects of mine in the past. I guess what I was getting at is it's going to be a considerable amount of time before I have a protocol which is stable enough, even for internal use, and it's easier to develop with a single package during early development, where early at this scale is several months at least.
2018-06-27T04:04:50Z mfiano: It's just too much meta-programming (and not the fun kind!) and too early when I should be sketching out a PoC
2018-06-27T04:05:25Z beach: mfiano: Sure.  All that depends on experience and your personal preference.
2018-06-27T04:05:58Z beach: In my case, it was not the first time I thought about this kind of software (I have been thinking about it for some 30 years and produced various versions), so I pretty much knew the issues.
2018-06-27T04:06:32Z beach: Where "this kind of software" is an "editable sequences", specifically for use as a text buffer in a text editor.
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2018-06-27T04:07:19Z mfiano: I see.
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2018-06-27T04:08:52Z mfiano: After all, I did move to CL over a decade ago for the reason that it was better at prototypical code than what I was using at the time.
2018-06-27T04:09:35Z mfiano: It is important to spend more time on ideas during early development than protocols and nomenclature in my honest opinion.
2018-06-27T04:10:01Z beach: You may be right.  And that's what I did for 25 years.  :)
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2018-06-27T04:11:54Z mfiano: Speaking of Cluffer, how is SecondClimacs coming along these days? I admit it's been a year or two since I checked on it.
2018-06-27T04:12:31Z beach: It is stalled at the moment.  I am working on the specification of the garbage collector for SICL right now.
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2018-06-27T04:13:56Z mfiano: THat is respectable
2018-06-27T04:14:36Z beach: And I have been distracted by the work of MichaelRaskin on debugging.  It gave me the idea that I could give support for something like Clordane without having a native SICL version.  Instead, I could use it for debugging cross-compiled SICL code inside SBCL, which would be a huge advantage over debugging core dumps.
2018-06-27T04:15:33Z beach: I am not much into masochistic programming practices, so I try to minimize my own pain when it comes to software development.
2018-06-27T04:17:07Z beach: I am worried about this GC thing though.  I fear that nobody I know has both the time and the competence to read and understand my specification.  If so, I would have to implement it myself to verify that it works, and that would certainly be very painful.
2018-06-27T04:21:45Z uncommon_lisp: I could try reading your spec - but I can only offer a nod of approval and a thumbs up afterwards because I probably wouldn't understand it.
2018-06-27T04:22:37Z beach: uncommon_lisp: That's very kind of you.  I'll work on it a bit more and then I'll submit it for remarks here.  I know flip214 is expecting more material from me before he is able to comment any further.
2018-06-27T04:23:25Z beach: He is right that it was very sketchy, and I need to work out the details.  And there turn out to be many such details to work out.
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2018-06-27T04:28:37Z Jachy: Is the spec for a particular GC implementation or for being able to integrate/swap different GCs?
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2018-06-27T04:29:12Z beach: Jachy: That would be very hard to do.  The GC is intimately tied to other implementation aspects of the system.
2018-06-27T04:29:37Z beach: Jachy: But there is an entire book on different types of GC and how they work.
2018-06-27T04:30:18Z beach: Jachy: The book is absolutely horrible when it comes to the writing itself, but it does contain a fairly complete description of must existing techniques.
2018-06-27T04:31:03Z Jachy: I've got a digital copy of the garbage collection handbook if that's the one you're referring to though I have barely scratched the surface in the past.
2018-06-27T04:31:25Z Jachy: I'm just thinking of the JVM with its several GC implementations (and a few proprietary ones like Azul's) has been an advantage.
2018-06-27T04:31:41Z beach: Yes, that's the one.
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2018-06-27T04:31:57Z pillton: When is the 2016 edition coming out in dead tree form? The website has been saying soon for ages. I emailed the publisher and I got no reply.
2018-06-27T04:32:29Z beach: Jachy: Just keep in mind that, if you read a section and do not understand it, it may not be your fault.  It could very well be the bad writing.
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2018-06-27T04:32:56Z beach: I am sorry to say this.  Jones is a great thinker, but his writing stinks.
2018-06-27T04:33:04Z beach: He could use some advice from Steven Pinker.
2018-06-27T04:33:05Z uncommon_lisp: I was going to buy that book but now I'm not so sure I want to waste money on bad writing
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2018-06-27T04:33:29Z beach: You have no alternative, I am afraid.
2018-06-27T04:33:47Z beach: Or, you can start with Paul Wilson's survey paper.
2018-06-27T04:33:59Z beach: It is a bit old now, but Paul is a much better writer.
2018-06-27T04:34:12Z uncommon_lisp: I could request that you write several essays and compile them into a book for me, and then post it here.
2018-06-27T04:34:15Z uncommon_lisp: I only joke of course.
2018-06-27T04:35:06Z uncommon_lisp: :]
2018-06-27T04:35:09Z beach: Heh.   On GC, specifically?  Sure, but I would manly just rehash what the others have already written.
2018-06-27T04:36:11Z beach: There might be some value to that, because I think of myself as a better writer than Jones.  Maybe not better than Paul Wilson, though.
2018-06-27T04:37:18Z uncommon_lisp: If you do write a comprehensive paper on it (not in a scholarly, verbose fashion, but in the style of K&R or Maurice J. Bach's design of unix), I'd read it for sure
2018-06-27T04:37:50Z beach: I'll put it on my list of books to write.  It is now in position 12.
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2018-06-27T04:40:42Z uncommon_lisp: Btw, I missed the conversation regarding the gc (what it's for (the software package I mean)) - are you writing the gc and everything in CL?
2018-06-27T04:40:44Z Jachy: Wilson's paper seems very familiar, I suspect I read it before sometime in the last 4-6 years but it's not in my finished folder..
2018-06-27T04:42:29Z beach: uncommon_lisp: I am planning to write as much as possible in Common Lisp.  For now, I am just writing a detailed specification of the GC I am planning for SICL.
2018-06-27T04:43:06Z Jachy: It is dated in that no mention of real time GC, but the Handbook only goes over that in the final chapter. Doesn't seem like there's that much interest in real time systems in the broader environment anyway.
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2018-06-27T04:43:34Z beach: Jachy: It's just very hard stuff.
2018-06-27T04:44:02Z beach: Jachy: Also, some of the standard techniques can be adapted to be real-time.
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2018-06-27T04:48:33Z uncommon_lisp: I've just glanced at some of your projects, very nice stuff
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2018-06-27T04:51:16Z uncommon_lisp: The climacs editor in particular was something I was really interested in back when I was trying my best to avoid emacs.
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2018-06-27T04:52:01Z beach: uncommon_lisp: Thanks.
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2018-06-27T07:02:58Z flip214: beach: just prove that your GC is correct, no need for debugging or even writing it then ;P
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2018-06-27T07:03:28Z beach: Good plan.
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2018-06-27T09:22:00Z LdBeth: Spend whole afternoon figuring out what does STACK-LET do.
2018-06-27T09:22:56Z dim: stack-let?
2018-06-27T09:23:01Z LdBeth: And finally I found it just do type declarations and declare dynamic extend
2018-06-27T09:34:08Z beach: Is that an Alexandria thing?
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2018-06-27T09:40:39Z edgar-rft: LdBeth, I've heard a stacklet is a little child of a stack
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2018-06-27T09:55:35Z beach: edgar-rft: heh.
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2018-06-27T10:17:17Z LdBeth: beach: It Lisp Machine thing.
2018-06-27T10:18:41Z LdBeth: Symbolics Common Lisp
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2018-06-27T11:02:49Z jmercouris: anyone have experience with http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/?
2018-06-27T11:02:55Z jmercouris: using TK in CL?
2018-06-27T11:03:28Z jackdaniel: I've used it
2018-06-27T11:03:37Z jackdaniel: works fine for creating an interface
2018-06-27T11:03:39Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: does it work on a modern implementation of sbcl?
2018-06-27T11:03:40Z jmercouris: ok
2018-06-27T11:03:44Z jackdaniel: it's hard to recover from errors though
2018-06-27T11:03:47Z jmercouris: that's fine
2018-06-27T11:03:52Z jmercouris: and did you use it on Linux?
2018-06-27T11:03:57Z jackdaniel: yes
2018-06-27T11:04:16Z jackdaniel: keep in mind, that documentation is useful but incomplete
2018-06-27T11:04:19Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: outside of mcclim, what is, in your opinion the best cross-platform GUI?
2018-06-27T11:04:32Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: I've not yet encountered complete documentation for a CL GUI :D
2018-06-27T11:04:36Z jackdaniel: there is a separate system (in the same tar shipped by quicklisp) which gives you many useful widgets
2018-06-27T11:05:04Z jmercouris: I'll have to check it out, thanks
2018-06-27T11:05:22Z jackdaniel: I have no opinion on that
2018-06-27T11:05:28Z jmercouris: Ok
2018-06-27T11:05:32Z jackdaniel: all are terrible one way or another
2018-06-27T11:05:35Z jackdaniel: (mcclim included)
2018-06-27T11:05:37Z jmercouris: too real
2018-06-27T11:06:00Z jmercouris: I haven't tried any of the offerings by allegro or lispworks though
2018-06-27T11:06:24Z jackdaniel: capi is suposedly good
2018-06-27T11:06:26Z jmercouris: like :http://www.lispworks.com/products/capi.html
2018-06-27T11:06:30Z jmercouris: yeah I was about to say, it looks really good
2018-06-27T11:06:43Z jackdaniel: EQL (ECL embedded with QT) is a good solution and it works with QML
2018-06-27T11:06:50Z jmercouris: Yeah, I did a lot of work on EQL
2018-06-27T11:07:13Z jmercouris: I must say it is quite good, but getting a compilable, and distributable binary
2018-06-27T11:07:21Z jmercouris: is a huge challenge
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2018-06-27T11:09:07Z jackdaniel: everything is a huge challenge given person in question needs to learn the basics of the tool in question
2018-06-27T11:09:16Z jackdaniel: so many "in question"'s
2018-06-27T11:10:00Z jmercouris: It's not just about learning the tools
2018-06-27T11:10:08Z jmercouris: the distributions of QT are very different from each other
2018-06-27T11:10:22Z jmercouris: I had to make modifications to the actual source of EQL to get it to work with different versions of QT
2018-06-27T11:10:33Z jmercouris: and platform specific differences for how one distributes a binary are also a huge challenge
2018-06-27T11:10:45Z jmercouris: normally when working in the QT environment, QT provides all of that tooling for you
2018-06-27T11:11:00Z jmercouris: but when you have to use unupdated insufficient command line tools, it isn't a good time
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2018-06-27T11:11:16Z jmercouris: it would be like trying to compile and distribute an xcode project entirely on the command line, its totally possible, but its totally not made easy for you
2018-06-27T11:11:37Z jackdaniel: I don't understand what you are saying, but that's most likely lack of knowledge on my site. I'll be back later
2018-06-27T11:11:51Z jmercouris: its fine, it doesn't matter, but suffice to say, distribution with EQL is hard
2018-06-27T11:12:04Z jmercouris: getting a suitable build environment involved something like 20 steps
2018-06-27T11:12:05Z jackdaniel had different experience
2018-06-27T11:12:20Z jmercouris: you are on Linux, as is the developer of EQL
2018-06-27T11:12:22Z jmercouris: I had to work with OSX
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2018-06-27T11:24:44Z jmercouris: jackdaniel: https://github.com/next-browser/next/tree/07778d29925be3c936d9b1df5060abda7d68abef/next
2018-06-27T11:24:49Z jmercouris: as you can see, the instructions are non-trivial
2018-06-27T11:25:09Z jmercouris: for the record, it would not even install on OSX when I started, that is far later on, the earlier instructions are even worse
2018-06-27T11:25:15Z jackdaniel: I think you've already lost when you said xcode
2018-06-27T11:25:34Z jackdaniel: but what do I know ,) either way, OSX isn't very appealing platform, I believe you
2018-06-27T11:26:14Z jmercouris: what do you mean "lost"? I didn't realize we were competing
2018-06-27T11:26:18Z jmercouris: I'm pretty sure we are on the same team
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2018-06-27T11:26:59Z LdBeth: Compiling CCL applications does not require Xcode
2018-06-27T11:27:24Z jmercouris: LdBeth: well, kind of
2018-06-27T11:27:28Z LdBeth: Even with Cocoa Interface
2018-06-27T11:27:30Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: I mean: you've lost against the computer and sanity
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2018-06-27T11:27:37Z jmercouris: Oh, I see
2018-06-27T11:27:44Z jmercouris: I've certainly lost my sanity a few times dealing with building
2018-06-27T11:28:06Z jackdaniel: not against me, I have no interest (sorry about that), how deep into craziness you've digged on OSC ;p
2018-06-27T11:28:09Z jackdaniel: osx
2018-06-27T11:28:17Z jackdaniel: in knowing how deep*
2018-06-27T11:28:27Z flip214: DEFTYPE allows to do parametric types, like (DEFTYPE UINT (size) `(INTEGER 0 ,(1- (expt 2 size)))). but such types can't be used in DEFMETHOD, right?
2018-06-27T11:28:54Z jackdaniel: flip214: they can't, because types and class system are not the same in CL
2018-06-27T11:28:55Z flip214: as these are just subsets of already existing types.
2018-06-27T11:29:00Z flip214: jackdaniel: ack, thanks
2018-06-27T11:29:03Z jackdaniel: for instance you may associate an arbitrary predicate with a type
2018-06-27T11:29:38Z jackdaniel: what you could do is to detect type during dispatch and construct object of a specific class (to dispatch on it) – look at filtered-functions for such possibility
2018-06-27T11:29:45Z jackdaniel: filtered-functions is closer-mop based
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2018-06-27T11:40:23Z carmack: I'm home ^_^
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2018-06-27T11:59:44Z jmercouris: there's some sort of slime configuration for how the process is spawned
2018-06-27T11:59:49Z jmercouris: I can't remember what it is called
2018-06-27T11:59:52Z jmercouris: can someone please remind me?
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2018-06-27T11:59:59Z shka_: jmercouris: yes
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2018-06-27T12:00:08Z jmercouris: shka_: will someone please remind me?
2018-06-27T12:00:17Z shka_: setq slime-lisp-implementations
2018-06-27T12:00:32Z shka_: '((sbcl ("/usr/bin/sbcl" "--dynamic-space-size" "16000") :coding-system utf-8-unix))
2018-06-27T12:00:46Z jmercouris: I meant whether it is a separate thread or something
2018-06-27T12:00:52Z jmercouris: spawn-style I think is what it is called
2018-06-27T12:00:53Z shka_: oh, i see
2018-06-27T12:00:55Z jmercouris: but I can't remember what else
2018-06-27T12:00:59Z shka_: i don't know
2018-06-27T12:01:29Z jmercouris: aha, here it is: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html
2018-06-27T12:01:31Z shka_: inferior process vs separate process?
2018-06-27T12:01:57Z shka_: oh, this is not releated :-)
2018-06-27T12:02:14Z shka_: it is not about starting process
2018-06-27T12:02:22Z jmercouris: well, threads
2018-06-27T12:02:27Z jmercouris: I meant threads, not processes, my bad
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2018-06-27T12:07:07Z jmercouris: specifically communication threads
2018-06-27T12:07:15Z jmercouris: because sometimes you get blocked IO in the slime repl depending on the system
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2018-06-27T12:35:55Z varjag: is there a way to get raw request body in easy handler of hunchentoot?
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2018-06-27T12:48:21Z varjag: mm.. *request*  + raw-post-data i guess..
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2018-06-27T13:47:02Z shrdlu68: Who goes by the nick "lispm" on HN?
2018-06-27T13:48:03Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: Rainer Joswig
2018-06-27T13:48:06Z jackdaniel: why?
2018-06-27T13:48:12Z jdz: My guess is Rainer Joswig.
2018-06-27T13:48:59Z shrdlu68: Just curious. Does he ever hang out here?
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2018-06-27T13:49:52Z Xach: shrdlu68: no
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2018-06-27T14:58:49Z beach: GAH, working out the details of how the SICL garbage collectors will work is both painful and totally necessary.  I am grateful to flip214 for not being content with my sketchy description of it.  It turns out there are tons of little details to hash out.  A few bitmaps here and there, the order between promotion and compaction in the nursery, how promotion works exactly, etc. etc.
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2018-06-27T15:01:00Z beach: Xof: You are off the hook (for now).  I need to determine a lot more details before I will ask you again to review it.
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2018-06-27T15:20:26Z LdBeth: lispm... sounds like someone logins to IRC as root : D
2018-06-27T15:21:16Z Xof: *phew*
2018-06-27T15:25:35Z beach: Xof: And you can of course still decline next time I ask.
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2018-06-27T16:03:24Z hjudt: i have a slime usability question. when i have a macro like (with-stuff (bindings) object) and object is in the same line as the last binding, emacs highlights object in red color. why does it do that? if i put it in the next line, it doesn't get highlighted in red.
2018-06-27T16:04:22Z hjudt: it looks like when you use (error ...)
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2018-06-27T16:05:02Z hjudt: is this intentional?
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2018-06-27T16:07:13Z beach: hjudt: It doesn't happen to me.  At least not in every situation similar to what you describe.
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2018-06-27T16:10:55Z Xof: I think it's intentional
2018-06-27T16:11:17Z Xof: if you are closing something that was opened on a previous line, it's unconventional to have more stuff on the line that closes
2018-06-27T16:11:27Z Xof: (with-stuff ((a x)
2018-06-27T16:11:33Z Xof:         (b y)) object)
2018-06-27T16:11:46Z Xof: would be more naturally
2018-06-27T16:11:51Z Xof: (with-stuff ((a x)
2018-06-27T16:12:04Z Xof:            (b y))
2018-06-27T16:12:06Z beach: Oh, I misunderstood the situation.
2018-06-27T16:12:12Z Xof:       object)
2018-06-27T16:12:21Z Xof: [ I can't count spaces at all, clearly ]
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2018-06-27T16:15:48Z beach: I still can't reproduce it.
2018-06-27T16:16:30Z beach: Maybe I have an old version of Emacs and/or SLIME.
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2018-06-27T16:17:47Z jackdaniel: beach: try (let (a {newline} b) foo)
2018-06-27T16:18:01Z jackdaniel: where {newline} is to be replaced with a new line
2018-06-27T16:18:16Z jackdaniel: not that it won't show in REPL
2018-06-27T16:18:20Z jackdaniel: you need to type it in file
2018-06-27T16:18:56Z Beep-Lord: I can't reproduce it either
2018-06-27T16:20:37Z beach: jackdaniel: I tried that.
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2018-06-27T16:21:32Z beach: Must be old versions.  I am not going to work on it further.
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2018-06-27T16:35:26Z akkad: jackdaniel: ltns! how is the Mcclim stuff going?
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2018-06-27T16:37:33Z beach: Hmm.  Finding GC roots when stack traversal is precise, and in the presence of callee-saves registers is, let's say, interesting.  A datum in a register or in a stack location close to the top of the stack may or may not be a Common Lisp object, depending on the value of the program counter in a stack frame much further down the stack.
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2018-06-27T17:29:18Z Ukari: is it possible to expand a list as a funcall's arguments without macro? for example, (defun test (&rest rest)) (defun expand (list) ...) (test (expand list))
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2018-06-27T17:30:02Z dlowe: clhs apply
2018-06-27T17:30:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
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2018-06-27T17:34:11Z Bike: as in, you want (apply #'test list).
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2018-06-27T17:44:02Z hjudt: beach: my slime and emacs are up-to-date for sure.
2018-06-27T17:44:33Z beach: hjudt: OK, mine must be old then.
2018-06-27T17:44:53Z hjudt: i have require 'slime-autoloads, slime-contribs fancy and indentation and ac-slime loaded
2018-06-27T17:46:12Z hjudt: it also happens with-slots. xof's description is more accurate than mine and makes sense.
2018-06-27T17:46:42Z hjudt: maybe i just need to get over the fact that is is highlighted and accept that it is good the way it is.
2018-06-27T17:47:18Z hjudt: this way, one cannot miss stuff and sees it immediately. i just wondered whether it is normal.
2018-06-27T17:47:25Z jackdaniel: this highlight is a good hint, that you should break the line before the red elements
2018-06-27T17:48:20Z jackdaniel: akkad: good, right now I'm focused on dragging ECL through 16.2.0 release finish line
2018-06-27T17:48:39Z jackdaniel: loke did some nice work with rendering and wrote a maxima client in McCLIM
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2018-06-27T17:49:12Z jackdaniel: also froggey and fittestbits works on Mezzano port, I hope it will be ready to be a pull request soon
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2018-06-27T17:56:17Z beach: So I guess for each safe point, we must keep a table that, for every callee-saves register contains the stack location where it was saved, if at all.  Then traversing the stack, it suffices to swap the contents of the register (or the representation of it in the GC) with the corresponding location, to get a valid next stack frame.  Then on the way up, do the operation in reverse.
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2018-06-27T19:16:53Z Beep-Lord: Is there a way to tell SBCL not to use the cache'd temp .fasl? It's loading an earlier version of my file and not recompiling it.
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2018-06-27T19:17:37Z dlowe: Beep-Lord: specify the .lisp extension when using LOAD
2018-06-27T19:18:36Z dlowe: if you're using asdf, specify :force t when using asdf:load-system
2018-06-27T19:19:06Z Beep-Lord: That's what I'm looking for asdf. Thanks.
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2018-06-27T19:37:31Z eMBee: alvinstarr: interesting, i have been considering this approach too, but i have not looked at it. overlayfs not handling gluster at the top would be a real bummer :-(
2018-06-27T19:37:43Z eMBee: ooops
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2018-06-27T20:05:03Z serichsen: good evening
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2018-06-27T20:09:08Z serichsen: Xach: are you there/may I disturb?
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2018-06-27T22:24:08Z aeth: Does anyone have an example of something that can only be (easily) done with multiple dispatch?
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2018-06-27T22:42:35Z mfiano: There isn't really anything that can _only_ be done with multiple dispatch. It's just another tool to solve the same old problems. However it is much more widespread in languages such as Clojure, where you are allowed to specify the function for how dispatching is performed, which you simply cannot do in portable CL
2018-06-27T22:45:29Z mfiano: An obvious example of when multiple dispatch would be useful is collision detection. Does object A always collide with object B? Does object B always collide with object A? No, we don't have to tie that behavior to a single object -- they both collide with each other.
2018-06-27T22:46:45Z aeth: Collision detection's always the example that comes up and I don't think it's a good example because it's a toy example. It's rarely how collision detection *actually* works.
2018-06-27T22:47:07Z aeth: At least, afaik. It's certainly not how I'd approach the problem.
2018-06-27T22:47:31Z Bike: could be a collision in something other than a physics engine.
2018-06-27T22:47:39Z Beep-Lord: Like a GUI
2018-06-27T22:47:40Z Bike: for example a spatial agent simulation of some kind.
2018-06-27T22:47:43Z aeth: Bike: That's true.
2018-06-27T22:48:19Z aeth: Bike: I'm just wondering if there's a better go-to example than collide?(A, B)
2018-06-27T22:48:38Z Bike: i mean how often do binary relations come up, really
2018-06-27T22:49:39Z Bike: though those are actually kind of annoying with multiple dispatch if they're commutative
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2018-06-27T22:50:39Z mfiano: What about set theory?
2018-06-27T22:51:41Z Bike: yeah, i worked with a generic subsetp once.
2018-06-27T22:51:45Z Bike: was'nt bad
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2018-06-27T22:52:19Z mfiano: I mean shape intersections can be quite reptitious. I think multiple dispatch would help here.
2018-06-27T22:52:32Z mfiano: I could be wrong..I didn't explore this before.
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2018-06-27T23:00:28Z aeth: There has to be something better than the collidep that always comes up. I didn't think about the commuative issue before, though.
2018-06-27T23:01:34Z _death: https://github.com/death/towers/blob/master/towers.lisp#L218
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2018-06-27T23:06:13Z aeth: I use multiple-dispatch for vec= (via specialization-store instead of defmethod, though)
2018-06-27T23:06:28Z aeth: Equality seems like... a bit of a weak example, but that's the best one I can think of.
2018-06-27T23:07:18Z aeth: It's particularly weak because most of the results are NIL, although I guess I could have a vec3 compare to only the first three elements of a vec4 or something. Probably not very intuitive, though.
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2018-06-27T23:07:56Z aeth: (Or maybe implicitly upgrade a vec3 to a vec4 with 1f0 as the 4th elt)
2018-06-27T23:08:07Z mfiano: That's very stupid
2018-06-27T23:08:58Z aeth: It's a stupid example or it's stupid to have them return NIL or it's stupid to have a vec3 ever be vec= to a vec4? Because I think having them return NIL is the right answer.
2018-06-27T23:09:07Z mfiano: Then you lose meaning of whether the vec4 is in homogenous coordinate space, and the types of operations you do on it need to know this.
2018-06-27T23:10:11Z _death: I use multiple dispatch every now and then.. it's just natural
2018-06-27T23:10:40Z aeth: mfiano: Absolutely. Upgrading a vec3 implicitly to a vec4 is a very PHP thing to do.
2018-06-27T23:11:03Z aeth: strong vs. weak typing and all.
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2018-06-27T23:12:09Z aeth: It seems simplier, but it makes things less reliable
2018-06-27T23:16:07Z aeth: (It especially becomes problematic when there's ambiguity, like with + being used for addition and string concatenation.)
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2018-06-27T23:22:28Z aeth: _death: can you think of something other than collide that's a nice example?
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2018-06-27T23:22:42Z mfiano: I just gave one
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2018-06-27T23:25:34Z aeth: mfiano: shape intersections?
2018-06-27T23:25:46Z mfiano: Or really any set-theoretic operations
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2018-06-27T23:29:10Z _death: e.g., 98:(defmethod evaluate ((problem (eql 'line-fitting)) model (point point)) 104:(defmethod evaluate ((problem (eql 'line-fitting)) model (points sequence))
2018-06-27T23:29:30Z aeth: mfiano: can you give a quick example of a good set-theoretic multiple-dispatch?
2018-06-27T23:29:31Z _death: there are other cases with eql specializers
2018-06-27T23:29:37Z aeth: mfiano: I mean, source example
2018-06-27T23:30:42Z _death: e.g., 680:(defmethod mouse-down ((palette palette) (button (eql sdl:mouse-left)) x y)
2018-06-27T23:31:26Z _death: sometimes not, like 228:(defmethod pour ((source tap) (target jug)) 231:(defmethod pour ((source jug) (target jug)) 236:(defmethod pour ((source jug) (target sink))
2018-06-27T23:32:41Z aeth: _death: The last one is interesting because those clearly have a source and destination
2018-06-27T23:32:44Z mfiano: I cannot, but consider the application of image processing, where you need to define a kernel whose size and shape are compositions of multiple primitives shapes You could simply have a multiple-dispatch method return a function that would loop over the required cells, and then the kernel could use this function as it rolls over the image.
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2018-06-27T23:33:43Z aeth: _death: and a tap is clearly invalid in the second argument
2018-06-27T23:33:52Z johnnymacs: Is there a function that takes a function and a list and calls the function on the list
2018-06-27T23:34:01Z mfiano: Like return a function that will map over all cells where a ellipse is cut out from a square
2018-06-27T23:34:02Z johnnymacs: Rather passes the list as the arguments of the function
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2018-06-27T23:34:09Z aeth: apply?
2018-06-27T23:34:14Z johnnymacs: thanks
2018-06-27T23:35:18Z _death: aeth: not sure what you mean
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2018-06-27T23:37:08Z aeth: _death: (pour source target) avoids the commutative problem Bike mentioned earlier, and your example gives something (the tap) that wouldn't be a valid target but is a valid source (assuming you're only refering to the faucet and not the drain)
2018-06-27T23:37:30Z _death: aeth: sure, but that is still an example of multiple dispatch?
2018-06-27T23:38:02Z _death: there's the familiar 17:(defmethod asdf:perform :around ((o asdf:load-op) (c asdf:component))
2018-06-27T23:38:12Z aeth: _death: Yes. What I'm saying is that it's a good example.
2018-06-27T23:42:54Z mfiano: aeth: Does what I say make any sense?
2018-06-27T23:45:00Z aeth: mfiano: It's advanced, I'll have to think about it.
2018-06-27T23:45:26Z mfiano: Well, are you familiar with image processing; particularly what a kernel-based convolution is?
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2018-06-27T23:48:32Z aeth: mfiano: I'm reading about it right now
2018-06-27T23:49:05Z mfiano: Ok, so I'll keep this close to home for you. Consider you were using CL to design a very simple procedurally generated map for your game.
2018-06-27T23:50:40Z aeth: I guess the key point is that you want to use multiple-dispatch to return (non-generic?) functions that iterate?
2018-06-27T23:50:45Z mfiano: You start with a bunch of "pixels" that are solid walls, and you want to "carve" out space where players can roam around. Your simple algorithm decided that it wants to carve out rooms first, and rooms are compositions of ellipses and rectangles. That is a room could be the union of an ellipse and a rectangle, or even the difference.
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2018-06-27T23:52:45Z aeth: So the multiple dispatch is used as a way to select which iteration to run, essentially? In this example, what rooms to carve.
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2018-06-27T23:52:55Z mfiano: So you can start writing functions for circles, which would just be the parametric equation of a circle with different axis values. So given a size, it would return the pixels to flip. You also have one for rectangles. Each iteration, you could use multiple dispatch to compose a new shape from these functions, and place it somewhere on your map.
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2018-06-27T23:54:23Z mfiano: I skipped over a lot, but the point is you can compose functions from existing functions using multiple dispatch, and it can save a lot of reptition in theory. I did similary when I wrote crawler, which I'm sure I've showed you before.
2018-06-27T23:54:25Z aeth: s/what rooms to carve/how to carve the rooms/
2018-06-27T23:54:27Z aeth: I was... sloppy
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2018-06-27T23:56:09Z mfiano: I probably didn't explain very well, but point being, you can dispatch on multiple shapes, and have it do set-theoretic operation(s) on them to return a new shape
2018-06-27T23:56:13Z aeth: mfiano: how are you composing the functions in this hypothetical (or practical)?
2018-06-27T23:57:09Z aeth: (I guess it's not a hypothetical if you've done it)
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2018-06-27T23:58:26Z mfiano: Well for something simple, like a vertical strip of pixels composed with a horizontal strip, You could just do: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/d1793462a13a5944a7fbb3bad3afb3c4, and then your multimethod would just merge the lists. Sorry a lot of context is left out of this code, but it should be fairly straight forward what is going on
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2018-06-28T00:00:49Z aeth: hmm
2018-06-28T00:01:38Z mfiano: Basically you would compose those 2 functions instead of doing what I did here: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/4565f6b99cbfaf7a6abc694c10e2c834
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2018-06-28T00:02:33Z mfiano: and you can extend this to other shapes as long as you know the math for selecting pixels, and for any arity.
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2018-06-28T00:03:42Z aeth: mfiano: So these lists, are they being built at compile time via a macro?
2018-06-28T00:03:57Z mfiano: That's an implementation detail.
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2018-06-28T00:07:34Z _death: if a generic function takes more than one required argument, one could likely figure out some case where multiple specializers make sense
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2018-06-28T00:09:30Z _death: that you use generic functions means you're not screwed when that actually happens
2018-06-28T00:09:55Z mfiano: aeth: Anyway, my point is not that they're lists...they could be functions which return arrays, and your multimethod could in theory return multiple values for selecting the interesting cells.
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2018-06-28T00:10:33Z mfiano: The point was that you can compose selections of cells from previously defined functions, by specializing on multiple required arguments.
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2018-06-28T00:11:35Z aeth: mfiano: Maybe I'm not quite understanding you or maybe your examples are oversimplified or something else, but it seems like you're close to something but not quite there.
2018-06-28T00:11:53Z mfiano: Ha fair enough.
2018-06-28T00:12:17Z aeth: You should try to develop something.
2018-06-28T00:13:07Z aeth: I think you might be on the right track to see something cool at the end.
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2018-06-28T00:13:30Z mfiano: To be perfectly honest, I didn't realize that my CL implementation of this was incomplete part way through this example, though I did do it with Clojure.
2018-06-28T00:14:29Z mfiano: Particularly the multiple dispatch part :)
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2018-06-28T00:19:23Z mfiano: aeth: If I ever complete it with the 37 other active projects I'm working on, real life excluded, I'll keep you informed :)
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2018-06-28T00:20:11Z aeth: mfiano: just borrow some of Shinmera's productivity.
2018-06-28T00:20:52Z aeth: Shinmera laughs at 37
2018-06-28T00:20:57Z mfiano: Ha yeah, he's like fukamachi, except with code that doesn't leave a bad taste, complete with documentation and all
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2018-06-28T01:12:17Z slyrus: hmm... one day I should consider using radiance instead of caveman/clack/lack/etc...
2018-06-28T01:12:36Z theemacsshibe[m]: hi there
2018-06-28T01:16:48Z PuercoPop: What's wrong with hunchentoot?
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2018-06-28T01:19:36Z akkad: heh
2018-06-28T01:20:13Z akkad: does it support ssl yet?
2018-06-28T01:21:51Z Ober: ssl is not available from lw/franz/sbcl, and two of those take money from you
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2018-06-28T01:25:40Z PuercoPop: akkad: I don't remember ever being a time where there wasn't an ssl-acceptor. And even if that weren't the case, one could always nginx in front to take care of it
2018-06-28T01:26:43Z akkad: nice.
2018-06-28T01:27:05Z Ober: is nginx in quicklisp?
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2018-06-28T01:29:50Z akkad: adding another webserver seems to sort of defeat the point.
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2018-06-28T01:31:25Z PuercoPop: Not really, you don't want to serve static files from your application server most of the time.
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2018-06-28T01:33:29Z akkad: that's what cdns are for
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2018-06-28T01:37:59Z akkad wonders why they thought ssl was not supported in it
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2018-06-28T02:09:52Z akkad: ahh, was not a lack of support, was the lack of reported quality
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2018-06-28T02:23:05Z akkad: PuercoPop: thanks for the info. will have to check tha tout
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2018-06-28T02:45:16Z beginner_supreme: Does anyone feel as though there is a built-in function for every little thing? Every time I write some code I wonder if I should be using some sort of built-in instead...
2018-06-28T02:46:04Z beginner_supreme: But the standard does not fit in my mind's cache
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2018-06-28T02:54:28Z pierpa: requires some time
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2018-06-28T03:25:28Z Beep-Lord: beginner_supreme: You could always run a quick apropos in your repl.
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2018-06-28T03:33:19Z asarch: What is a lambda-list?
2018-06-28T03:33:35Z asarch: The arguments of a lambda function?
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2018-06-28T03:36:21Z Beep-Lord: clhs 3.4.1
2018-06-28T03:36:21Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
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2018-06-28T03:42:34Z asarch: (remove-if-not #'(lambda (x) (= 0 (mod x 2))) '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))
2018-06-28T03:42:35Z asarch: ?
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2018-06-28T04:23:43Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-28T04:23:53Z montxero: :beach hey
2018-06-28T04:24:03Z beach: asarch: It would be called "parameter list" in other languages.
2018-06-28T04:24:32Z montxero: Does anyone know of lisp meetups and events in Australia?
2018-06-28T04:24:43Z beach: Check with pillton.
2018-06-28T04:24:45Z montxero: kinda hard finding any
2018-06-28T04:24:54Z beach: You two can get together.
2018-06-28T04:25:03Z beach: Though you may not be close of course.
2018-06-28T04:25:10Z beach: asarch: And, there is no such thing as a "lambda function" in Common Lisp.  There are functions, and that's it.
2018-06-28T04:25:27Z montxero: :beach thanks
2018-06-28T04:25:40Z beach: montxero: Where are you located?
2018-06-28T04:25:45Z charh quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2018-06-28T04:25:46Z montxero: Melbourne
2018-06-28T04:26:27Z smasta quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2018-06-28T04:27:26Z beach: The situation is not ideal in Austalasia.  When I lived in Auckland for a year, I found that there was only a handful of Lispers within a 3 hour flight.  Here in Europe there are hundreds within such a radius.
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2018-06-28T04:28:45Z montxero: :beach that sucks
2018-06-28T04:28:52Z beach: Yeah.
2018-06-28T04:29:57Z montxero: Starting out with the SCIP videos but doing the exercises in common lisp. Fun so far...
2018-06-28T04:30:07Z beach: SICP?
2018-06-28T04:30:25Z montxero: yeah SICP
2018-06-28T04:31:28Z montxero: every now and then, I have to do some mental gymnastics to get over the single/dual namespace difference
2018-06-28T04:31:37Z beach: I can see that.
2018-06-28T04:31:56Z beach: So you are just now starting to learn Common Lisp?
2018-06-28T04:32:02Z montxero: Yeah
2018-06-28T04:32:09Z montxero: 2 weeks now
2018-06-28T04:32:17Z beach: Congratulations.
2018-06-28T04:32:25Z montxero: Thanks
2018-06-28T04:32:41Z beach: What implementation did you install?
2018-06-28T04:33:00Z montxero: sbcl + emacs + slime + asdf + quicklisp
2018-06-28T04:33:05Z beach: Sounds good.
2018-06-28T04:33:24Z montxero: went through a couple of tutorials to get that working
2018-06-28T04:33:56Z beach: Yeah, it can be tricky.  Nowadays there is Portacle that packages those things conveniently.
2018-06-28T04:34:31Z beach: Make sure you use the slime-indentation contribution for SLIME.  At least I *think* that is still only a contribution and not the default.
2018-06-28T04:34:58Z beach: Otherwise it gets the indentation of some forms wrong.
2018-06-28T04:35:35Z montxero: Okay... will look into that.
2018-06-28T04:37:04Z montxero: Does this look right? https://pastebin.com/djPzHAqX
2018-06-28T04:37:42Z beach: Nope.
2018-06-28T04:37:47Z beach: You don't nest DEFUNs in Common Lisp.
2018-06-28T04:38:00Z montxero: A function I wrote to emulate a list comprehension from python
2018-06-28T04:38:00Z beach: That's a Scheme thing.
2018-06-28T04:38:04Z montxero: Oh...
2018-06-28T04:38:05Z montxero: lol
2018-06-28T04:38:15Z montxero: SICP then
2018-06-28T04:38:23Z montxero: hahahahahaha
2018-06-28T04:38:33Z beach: Also, your indentation is wrong.
2018-06-28T04:38:46Z beginner_supreme: In CL you would use flet or labels to make a local function.
2018-06-28T04:39:01Z beginner_supreme: *named function I mean
2018-06-28T04:40:12Z montxero: Thanks for the heads up... searching for the slime-indentation package now
2018-06-28T04:40:59Z beach: montxero: Also, the function that you thought would be local seems to be using tail recursion with an accumulator.  That is also a Scheme-ism because in Scheme, iteration is really tail recursion under the hood.  In Common Lisp, you would use iteration instead, especially since Common Lisp does not guarantee tail-call merging.
2018-06-28T04:41:17Z beach: montxero: That indentation should have been fixed without that contribution.
2018-06-28T04:41:28Z beach: montxero: You must not have hit TAB on those lines.
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2018-06-28T04:44:35Z montxero: I just noticed... not sure why that happened. https://pastebin.com/EG2FGJby just repasted the original
2018-06-28T04:45:43Z beach: It may have to do with TAB characters in your source.  Pastebin may not handle them right.  I suggest you make Emacs use spaces all the time.   Other tools don't do TAB characters very well either.
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2018-06-28T04:46:02Z beach: Yes, now the indentation is right it seems.
2018-06-28T04:46:20Z beach: Step one would be to replace the nested DEFUN with LABELS.
2018-06-28T04:46:24Z beach: clhs labels.
2018-06-28T04:46:24Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for labels..
2018-06-28T04:46:27Z beach: clhs labels
2018-06-28T04:46:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2018-06-28T04:47:51Z montxero: So, labels / flets rather than nestd defuns.. Is there a particular reason for that? like the functions leaking out to global scope?
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2018-06-28T04:48:56Z Beep-Lord: Yeah, defun defines in the global environment.
2018-06-28T04:48:59Z beach: Sort of, yes.  DEFUN always creates a globally defined function.
2018-06-28T04:49:25Z montxero: OOOOOOoooooooohhhh
2018-06-28T04:49:26Z beginner_supreme: Example reference: (defun add (a b) (+ a b)) --> (add 1 2) => 3 is the usual way. (labels ((add (a b) (+ a b))) (add 1 2)) => 3 is the labels way.
2018-06-28T04:50:23Z beginner_supreme: It's like a let* but for functions
2018-06-28T04:50:37Z beginner_supreme: Since the namespaces are separate
2018-06-28T04:56:41Z montxero: Okay cool... I'm reading clhs for flet  and labels. This portion: "labels is equivalent to flet except that the scope of the defined function names for labels encompasses the function definitions themselves as well as the body." seems a bit opaque to me; almost like it is hiding a very subtle warining
2018-06-28T04:56:56Z beach: Not at all.
2018-06-28T04:57:21Z beach: It means that functions defined with LABELS can call each other recursively.
2018-06-28T04:57:24Z beach: Not so with FLET.
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2018-06-28T05:01:16Z montxero: Oh!!!!!, so if I want to define a recursive function inside the scope of another function, I would be better off using labels (rather than defun). If I were to define said recursive inner function with FLET, on calling the function, I will get a symbol (unbounded / undefined) error or someting to that effect. Is that it or am I missing something else?
2018-06-28T05:01:35Z beach: Sounds right.
2018-06-28T05:02:29Z montxero: You, Sensie Beach  are a legend.
2018-06-28T05:02:38Z beach: ?
2018-06-28T05:03:05Z montxero: **extravagant thanks**
2018-06-28T05:03:16Z beach: Oh, sure.  Anytime.
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2018-06-28T05:03:42Z beach: Right now I am having my coffee in order to wake up, so any more taxing intellectual activity shall have to wait anyway.
2018-06-28T05:03:58Z montxero: No worries
2018-06-28T05:04:25Z beginner_supreme: I've written up an explanation on pastebin. https://pastebin.com/mwHHPHtv
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2018-06-28T05:09:24Z montxero: beginner_supreme: Thanks for that. The namespace demo captures a lot of the problems I've encountered
2018-06-28T05:09:32Z beginner_supreme: No problem
2018-06-28T05:09:34Z beach: beginner_supreme: It is not common to use #'(lambda...) anymore.  You can just use (lambda ...) instead.
2018-06-28T05:09:47Z beginner_supreme: I was just demonstrating the namespace quirk
2018-06-28T05:09:56Z beginner_supreme: Oh right, yeah that macro
2018-06-28T05:10:05Z beginner_supreme: I forgot about that
2018-06-28T05:10:09Z beach: beginner_supreme: Otherwise, good explanation.
2018-06-28T05:10:16Z beginner_supreme: Thanks :]
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2018-06-28T05:11:46Z beginner_supreme: That took a while to write up because I still haven't learned enough emacs.
2018-06-28T05:12:02Z beach: Good exercise then.
2018-06-28T05:12:03Z beginner_supreme: So I'm using my brain's paredit and a steady hand
2018-06-28T05:12:21Z beach: Oh, wow.
2018-06-28T05:12:27Z beginner_supreme: Damn it one day I will know emacs
2018-06-28T05:12:31Z beginner_supreme: And this can end
2018-06-28T05:12:42Z beach: Yeah.  I recommend it.
2018-06-28T05:14:11Z beginner_supreme: I'm off for tonight, good night all!
2018-06-28T05:14:22Z beach: Good night beginner_supreme.
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2018-06-28T05:14:46Z montxero: Good noght beginer_supreme
2018-06-28T05:16:25Z beach: montxero: If you know how to program in other languages already, PCL may be a better alternative to SICP.
2018-06-28T05:16:34Z beach: minion: Please tell montxero about PCL.
2018-06-28T05:16:34Z minion: montxero: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2018-06-28T05:16:58Z beach: montxero: It is way more idiomatic for Common Lisp than SICP is.
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2018-06-28T05:17:21Z montxero: Okay... thanks... and thanks minion
2018-06-28T05:17:35Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2018-06-28T05:17:36Z minion: np
2018-06-28T05:18:08Z beach: minion: Are you a bot?
2018-06-28T05:18:10Z minion: Are you a bot: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "https://www.cliki.net/Are you a bot?source" contains illegal character #\  at position 25..
2018-06-28T05:18:20Z beach: Heh.
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2018-06-28T05:47:14Z oni-on-ion: =)
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2018-06-28T06:10:22Z paule32: hello
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2018-06-28T06:10:53Z paule32: how can i code a event - message?
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2018-06-28T06:26:46Z pillton: Use a class since an event is the state of something at a specific time instant.
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2018-06-28T06:58:41Z littlelisper: https://pastebin.com/MVuLh9wn
2018-06-28T06:58:55Z littlelisper: i have just started with macros, it says illegal function calls
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2018-06-28T07:00:32Z jdz: littlelisper: That looks like a function, not a macro.
2018-06-28T07:00:33Z pillton: The arguments to coerce are the wrong way around.
2018-06-28T07:01:08Z littlelisper: do i make a function. is it wrong?
2018-06-28T07:01:50Z pillton: You should make a function.
2018-06-28T07:02:04Z jdz: It depends on what you want to achieve.  But (defun coerce-all (type &rest args) (loop while args collect (coerce (pop args) type))) should work.
2018-06-28T07:02:43Z littlelisper: ok pillton. thanks jdz and pillton
2018-06-28T07:02:52Z jdz: Also (loop for arg in args collect (coerce arg type)) would be more idiomatic.
2018-06-28T07:04:16Z pillton: You are probably drawn to common lisp because of the power of macro functions. The irony is that macro functions should be the last thing you use.
2018-06-28T07:05:11Z littlelisper: ok, jdz . i ll use that. yeah pillton, i want to get started with macros
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2018-06-28T07:12:54Z beach: littlelisper: Make sure you practice cases that actually need macros.  Otherwise, you will get into all kinds of strange coding practices.
2018-06-28T07:14:06Z littlelisper: i am reading and watching sicp, so yeah things will be better
2018-06-28T07:14:42Z littlelisper: i havent got to macros yet. i was just trying
2018-06-28T07:15:03Z beach: Interestingly, since SICP is Scheme and Scheme does not have macros, that might be the wrong source for practicing macros.
2018-06-28T07:15:25Z oni-on-ion: =)
2018-06-28T07:16:04Z littlelisper: oh, i dint know that. but then too i ll read sicp
2018-06-28T07:18:04Z littlelisper: i ll get on to macros later
2018-06-28T07:18:25Z beach: littlelisper: Macros are used only when the evaluation rule for functions will not work.
2018-06-28T07:19:11Z littlelisper: ah, i ll keep that in mind beach
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2018-06-28T07:23:44Z pillton: littlelisper: I find the best explanation of the difference between functions and macro functions is in section 3.1.2 of the hyperspec. It also helps highlight the difference between form syntax and character syntax.
2018-06-28T07:24:06Z beach: clhs 3.1.2
2018-06-28T07:24:07Z specbot: The Evaluation Model: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ab.htm
2018-06-28T07:25:37Z littlelisper: beach: pillton : i ll check it out
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2018-06-28T07:30:33Z oni-on-ion: ew nice ToC =) 3.1.2.1
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2018-06-28T07:44:51Z JuanDaugherty: "ew" is an expression of disgust
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2018-06-28T07:45:23Z JuanDaugherty: combined with nice could be taken as snide sarcasm
2018-06-28T07:45:46Z JuanDaugherty: which I don't think you meant
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2018-06-28T07:48:35Z JuanDaugherty: much of irc is flamewars waiting to happen so doing my bit to lessen that
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2018-06-28T09:09:20Z shrdlu68: In Hunchentoot, within the body of an easy handler, when I log to *standard-output*, *terminal-io*, or *error-output*, the output appears in the *inferior-lisp* window rather than, as I expect, the slime repl.
2018-06-28T09:10:24Z shrdlu68: I guess hunchentoot is binding these vars locally to something else. How can I get the usual output to the slime repl despite that?
2018-06-28T09:10:25Z _death: it runs in a different thread where these variables aren't bound to slime output streams.. you can use a proper logging library, like log4cl
2018-06-28T09:11:04Z shrdlu68: ...but the hunchentoot access logs _do_ appear in the repl.
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2018-06-28T09:12:07Z _death: there's hunchentoot:log-message* .. if you think hunchentoot support for logging is sufficient
2018-06-28T09:12:20Z shrdlu68: Ah, just figured that out, thanks.
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2018-06-28T10:17:21Z jmercouris: I'm working on an interactive command prompt.  I can complete/tab complete command names. I'm now working on completing command
2018-06-28T10:17:21Z jmercouris: arguments.
2018-06-28T10:17:33Z jmercouris:  I would like each argument to be able to provide its own set of completions to guide the user.
2018-06-28T10:17:47Z jmercouris: I've been thinking about how to represent that as an unexpanded macro
2018-06-28T10:17:51Z jmercouris: and I can't think of a good design
2018-06-28T10:18:28Z jmercouris: the only thing I've thought of so far is defining separate functions for each argument completino
2018-06-28T10:18:33Z jmercouris: s/completino/completion
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2018-06-28T10:19:11Z jmercouris: so something like (define-command command-x (arglist)) followed by (command-x-arg1 () ...completion logic..) (command-x-arg2 () ... completion logic...)
2018-06-28T10:19:33Z dim: jmercouris: did you manage to write the README first? (RDD method, I like it), that is, how are you going to use it, what do you expect to see as completion choices in several situations?
2018-06-28T10:19:50Z jmercouris: dim: I've written down a high level description, yes
2018-06-28T10:20:05Z dim: does it cover completion of the arguments?
2018-06-28T10:20:11Z jmercouris: yes
2018-06-28T10:20:16Z jmercouris: It is basically a flow chart
2018-06-28T10:20:34Z dim: is there a chance that you didn't think it through yet?
2018-06-28T10:20:47Z jmercouris: there is always a chance, yes
2018-06-28T10:20:47Z dim: usually that's what prevent having an opinion on some design
2018-06-28T10:21:00Z dim: it's that you're not clear on the use-cases for it
2018-06-28T10:21:00Z jmercouris: I've been thinking about this for about 48 hours now
2018-06-28T10:21:08Z jmercouris: that's the problem, the product is too ambiguous
2018-06-28T10:21:09Z dim: how many breaks and walks did you take?
2018-06-28T10:21:18Z jmercouris: I have one concrete application in mind, but I don't know how the application will evolve
2018-06-28T10:21:24Z jackdaniel: 48h is not a big amount of time
2018-06-28T10:21:40Z dim: if that's spent in front of the computer, it's not worth much
2018-06-28T10:22:00Z jmercouris: I guess I will spend some more time thinking about how the product will actually be used
2018-06-28T10:22:12Z jmercouris: and that will guide how the arguments and commands will be defined
2018-06-28T10:22:16Z dim: my usual technique for that kind of question is a 1h walk at good pace (walk fast enough that you could not sustain a chat at the same time, that's how the brain is best oxygened)
2018-06-28T10:22:32Z jmercouris: Ok, I'll go for a walk, that is a good idea
2018-06-28T10:22:33Z jmercouris: thank you
2018-06-28T10:22:54Z dim: hope it helps, it usually helps me a lot
2018-06-28T10:23:06Z jmercouris: fingers crossed :D
2018-06-28T10:23:16Z xificurC: A: can anyone help me solve X? B: go for a walk
2018-06-28T10:23:41Z jackdaniel: you may study how McCLIMdd
2018-06-28T10:23:51Z beach: jackdaniel: I was just going to mention that.
2018-06-28T10:23:52Z dim: going for a walk only gives good results when you understand the problem clearly enough, which looks like it's the case here
2018-06-28T10:23:53Z xificurC: A: how can I do Y? B: what is the real problem X? A: it is ... B: Ah ok, I suggest you go for a walk then
2018-06-28T10:24:01Z jackdaniel: soryr, my connection broke
2018-06-28T10:24:02Z dim: also doesn't work well with juniors
2018-06-28T10:24:03Z jackdaniel: since "dd"
2018-06-28T10:24:11Z jackdaniel: I was about to finish the sentence :-)
2018-06-28T10:24:23Z beach: jackdaniel: Go right ahead!
2018-06-28T10:24:54Z jackdaniel: jmercouris: McCLIM has commands which have types and interactor provides completions of various type (list, string, number etc)
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2018-06-28T10:25:39Z jackdaniel: putting aside presentations and how buggy the whole mechanism is in McCLIM, design may be at least worth studying (CLIM II specification is fine if not too engineered)
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2018-06-28T10:33:45Z _death: sounds like a tree to me
2018-06-28T10:33:59Z _death: so make sure you walk in the woods ;)
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2018-06-28T10:48:45Z shka: jackdaniel: is there a hope for McCLIM anyway?
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2018-06-28T10:49:04Z loke: shka: Well, it can be convinced to do things :-)
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2018-06-28T10:49:16Z shka: or tricked? :D
2018-06-28T10:49:17Z loke: shka: I'm trying to build a real application with it :-)
2018-06-28T10:49:26Z shka: how it is going?
2018-06-28T10:49:37Z shka: let's assume i care only about X11 at this point
2018-06-28T10:50:02Z jackdaniel: I don't understand the question (regarding hope)
2018-06-28T10:50:06Z jackdaniel: could you rephrase?
2018-06-28T10:50:20Z loke: shka: Well, some things that should be simple is very hard. Other things are almost magically automatic. :-)
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2018-06-28T10:50:39Z jackdaniel: it is a working software with bugs (as we know, none of Lisp software has bugs, so it must be an accident) and plans for the future
2018-06-28T10:51:04Z jackdaniel: as well as steady stream of contributions, corrections, issue reports etc
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2018-06-28T10:51:32Z jackdaniel: if the question is: is there a hope you'll use it, then you must answer itself. if the question is: is there a hope it will work? then it works, like right now
2018-06-28T10:51:41Z loke: shka: I make a playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvC82EjoPYU&list=PL6AQVVynH5Dg3Wwpk3zNT962GntKfssje
2018-06-28T10:51:42Z jackdaniel: otherwise I don't understand it (the question in question ;_)
2018-06-28T10:53:00Z loke: shka: Things like subexpression selection in the equations are automatic in CLIM, which is cool.
2018-06-28T10:53:09Z shka: jackdaniel: well, ideally, i think that McCLIM should work on major platforms (that would be osx, windows, x11 and wayland), require modest ammount of time to build usefull applications and don't be very buggy, given the scope, this task list appears to daunting
2018-06-28T10:53:34Z shka: i am wondering if this scary impression i have is justified
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2018-06-28T10:54:09Z shka: loke: oh, i will take a look at it!
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2018-06-28T10:55:55Z loke: shka: My goal is to build something that is better than Wxmaxima.
2018-06-28T10:56:03Z shka:  vector demo looks neat
2018-06-28T10:58:13Z shka: loke: i like how it looks
2018-06-28T10:58:38Z jackdaniel: shka: you basically present a wishlist, not something to justify queationing for any hope for the software, so I still don't understand
2018-06-28T10:58:48Z loke: shka: Thanks. I'm trying to make the rendering of the equations as nice as possible.
2018-06-28T10:58:52Z shka: jackdaniel: that's ok
2018-06-28T10:59:01Z shka: loke: so, what things are
2018-06-28T10:59:06Z shka: "hard" here?
2018-06-28T10:59:14Z loke: shka: I think that's my biggest advantage to Wxmaxima, which, while doing proper maths rendering, looks quite bad.
2018-06-28T10:59:24Z jackdaniel: it is like if I had asked: is there any hope for lisp? I think it should be faster, work on more platforms and have first-class global environments implemented
2018-06-28T10:59:38Z loke: shka: Well, believe it or not, it's sthings like the completions popup, where I had to build everything from scratch.
2018-06-28T11:00:05Z loke: Also, being able to manpilate the graph (using the buttons) also took quite a bit of convincing CLIM ;_)
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2018-06-28T11:00:13Z shka: so, generally lack of built in features?
2018-06-28T11:00:29Z shka: ok, second points sounds different
2018-06-28T11:00:46Z loke: shka: It's more that CLIM was designed for a single-threaded Lisp-oriented workflow.
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2018-06-28T11:01:10Z loke: shka: Just getting the commandline (“interactor”) to accept plain text was tricky to say the least.
2018-06-28T11:01:12Z shka: almost all GUI frameworks are like that
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2018-06-28T11:01:35Z loke: shka: The entire thing is deeply tied to the idea that your application is driven by a commandline which is a Lisp REPL.
2018-06-28T11:01:42Z shka: hmmm
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2018-06-28T11:02:13Z loke: shka: In Maxima, input is onbviously the Maxima language, which meant that I had to reimplement the entire input loop.
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2018-06-28T11:02:56Z loke: shka: For reference, here is the code to simply read the Maxima expressions on the commandline: https://github.com/lokedhs/maxima-client/blob/master/src/cmdline.lisp#L174
2018-06-28T11:03:32Z loke: shka: Of course, it's more clever than your regular text-input-box, but still.
2018-06-28T11:03:40Z shka: looks painful
2018-06-28T11:04:13Z loke: shka: Another issue is that since it's inherently single-threaded, and the inptu loop is imperative, managing more than one input loop is incredibly hard
2018-06-28T11:04:46Z shka: and what if want to make application that is basicly button driven?
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2018-06-28T11:05:18Z loke: shka: You can open a second window by running a separate thread, but there is zero support for interacting between them, so you have to build everything yourself. I don't even want to think about what it would take to implement drag-and-drop between windows.
2018-06-28T11:05:44Z loke: shka: That depends on what you want to do.
2018-06-28T11:06:10Z loke: shka: Generally you should attempt to build you application absed on CLIM concepts, not try to convince it to behave like a “normal” GUI application.
2018-06-28T11:07:11Z shka: does not sound all that hot
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2018-06-28T11:07:41Z loke: shka: Well, I'm giving you all the negatives.
2018-06-28T11:07:56Z shka: loke: my impression is that McCLIM is more a canvas for displaying result
2018-06-28T11:07:57Z loke: shka: THere are aspects of it that are really cool too, but I never mentioned any of those.
2018-06-28T11:08:04Z loke: shka: Oh not at all
2018-06-28T11:08:11Z shka: while interactions are driven mostly with REPL
2018-06-28T11:08:27Z shka: well, go one then, i am listening
2018-06-28T11:08:41Z loke: shka: well, that was how the Lisp machine worked, and CLIM is basically a lisp machine interface :-)
2018-06-28T11:08:46Z loke: Specifically, Genera.
2018-06-28T11:09:14Z loke: shka: You should probably watch the video(s) jackdaniel made.
2018-06-28T11:09:18Z shka: yeah, ok, i get that, still i don't think it is the right way of doing GUI
2018-06-28T11:09:25Z loke: shka: He demonstrates the concepts better than I can explain them on IRC
2018-06-28T11:09:33Z shka: right, i think i will
2018-06-28T11:09:40Z random-nick: it's not really a REPL, it accepts program-defined commands too that are not lisp code
2018-06-28T11:09:45Z shka: actually i wanted to do it long ago, but i simply forgot
2018-06-28T11:09:49Z loke: random-nick: Right
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2018-06-28T11:10:24Z shka: anyway: more type-type then click-click
2018-06-28T11:10:26Z loke: and commands can be invoked not jst by typing them, but also by clicking buttons, or clicking on objects on the screen, where each object is an actual Lisp object
2018-06-28T11:10:26Z shka: right?
2018-06-28T11:10:38Z LdBeth: When will CLIM3 Spec come out?
2018-06-28T11:10:39Z shka: ok, that sounds better
2018-06-28T11:10:53Z loke: shka: You don't have to type at all. You can expose all your commands as buttons or clickable “things”
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2018-06-28T11:12:44Z loke: So in the maths renderer I built, each equation is a “thing” that renders as an expression. They consist of other “things” which are the subexpressions. There is also a translator that converts these things into text (which happens to be the maxima language form of the same equation.
2018-06-28T11:12:45Z shka: ok, got the video
2018-06-28T11:13:30Z LdBeth I know it’s probably like asking “when will the next version of Common Lisp spec come out” （＾Ｏ＾）
2018-06-28T11:13:34Z shka: loke: do you happen to know how this whole thing compares to smalltalk style of gui?
2018-06-28T11:13:46Z loke: That's why you can click on a subexpression while typing a maxima command, and the nexessary code is autoamtically pasted. It's because there is a command translator that is applied when clicking which in that context.
2018-06-28T11:14:01Z loke: shka: There are similartities.
2018-06-28T11:14:11Z loke: Anyway, I have to levae now.
2018-06-28T11:14:28Z loke: Watch the video, and if you have more questions I'll be happy to answer later.
2018-06-28T11:14:33Z shka: loke: take care and thanks for answers!
2018-06-28T11:14:34Z loke: Or JD might also answer.
2018-06-28T11:14:45Z loke: Join #clim if you want details.
2018-06-28T11:15:00Z shka: loke: i probabbly should get my hands dirty and actually build something with it
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2018-06-28T11:15:09Z shka: but i am busy with other crap
2018-06-28T11:15:10Z shka: sadly
2018-06-28T11:15:12Z loke: shka: Probably, yes.
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2018-06-28T13:01:22Z Xach: serichse`: sure
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2018-06-28T13:39:33Z p_l: PAIP for free online :3
2018-06-28T13:39:39Z p_l: as epub
2018-06-28T13:39:44Z beach: Old news.
2018-06-28T13:39:59Z p_l: I unfortunately only heard it recently
2018-06-28T13:40:09Z beach: I am joking.  Not that old.
2018-06-28T13:40:09Z p_l: Though if I get the chance, I'd love to get my own copy signed ;D
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2018-06-28T13:51:11Z flip214: p
2018-06-28T13:51:52Z flip214: p_l: digitally signed? via PGP or GPG? that's easy, just create your own key for "Peter Norvig" ;)
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2018-06-28T13:52:13Z p_l: flip214: I have a physical copy ;)
2018-06-28T13:52:35Z shka: p_l: oddly enough i bought paperback just a year ago
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2018-06-28T13:58:33Z flip214: p_l: me too.... would you sign it at next years' ELS?
2018-06-28T13:59:00Z p_l: only if Norvig shows up, I mean, I can try sending my copy there
2018-06-28T13:59:05Z p_l: s/there/to him/
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2018-06-28T14:05:36Z beach: We could invite Norvig as a keynote speaker.
2018-06-28T14:05:49Z beach: Though, I guess he might talk about Python then instead.
2018-06-28T14:06:22Z shka: i don't have impression that norvig is intersted in python as a language
2018-06-28T14:06:31Z beach: I hope you are right.
2018-06-28T14:07:19Z shka: from what i read Norvig just considers python to be efficient teaching medium
2018-06-28T14:07:21Z jackdaniel: certainly he is convinced, that python is a better choice for teaching as a language
2018-06-28T14:08:16Z shka: i disagree with Norvig in that matter, but well, he may be right
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2018-06-28T14:10:46Z p_l: I think he mentioned a bit of external reasons to deal with Python, and tbqh, Common Lisp did have a bit of problem with easily available implementations and their *distribution* among people
2018-06-28T14:11:04Z p_l: (at least from perspective of someone who didn't know anything about lisp at the time)(
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2018-06-28T14:12:21Z shka: p_l: i think that this is not longer relevant
2018-06-28T14:12:42Z p_l: yes, but Norvig's writing about it was when it was relevant
2018-06-28T14:12:52Z shka: ok
2018-06-28T14:12:55Z p_l: also, we might have by now different view than people completely new to it :)
2018-06-28T14:13:01Z dim: I've read that scheme is pretty good at teaching (syntax as in CL, also not so many batteries included, meaning students can try coding merge and other advanced stuff themselves rather than just calling the already provided feature)
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2018-06-28T14:15:51Z shka: dim: scheme is excelent for learning fundamental programming concepts
2018-06-28T14:16:13Z shka: not so for specific stuff like machine learning
2018-06-28T14:16:17Z LdBeth: Programming with lambda and lists
2018-06-28T14:17:05Z LdBeth: Which prevents people from thinking outside the world
2018-06-28T14:17:21Z jackdaniel: I do not understand what could be a reason, why scheme wouldn't be a good pick for (say) machine learning, but this is offtopic anyway
2018-06-28T14:17:47Z jackdaniel: (so please do not prove me wrong here)
2018-06-28T14:18:04Z shrdlu68 screeches to a halt.
2018-06-28T14:18:56Z p_l: there's no such reason, at best it's a matter of library availability
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2018-06-28T14:19:05Z shka: anyway, it would be cool to hear Norving talk on ELS
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2018-06-28T14:30:20Z Satou: Hello! I have a question regarding user-defined packages. I've defined a package that I want to use in another file. http://termbin.com/tdeb
2018-06-28T14:30:44Z Xach: Satou: ok!
2018-06-28T14:31:22Z Satou: I compiled it and loaded it in another file using (load "ipfs"), but doing anything like (print (cl-ipfs:version)) doesn't really work. It tells me the package doesn't exist.
2018-06-28T14:31:56Z shka: Satou: you are doing it wrong
2018-06-28T14:32:14Z Satou: shka, could you please explain?
2018-06-28T14:32:20Z Xach: Satou: there are a lot of problems going on in your example
2018-06-28T14:32:22Z shka: essentially, CL applications are not a bunch of files loading other files
2018-06-28T14:32:39Z shka: what you want to do is to define system
2018-06-28T14:32:53Z Xach: One immediate problem is the package name is "cl-ipfs" but for normal interoperation you would want it named "CL-IPFS".
2018-06-28T14:32:54Z shka: and package is basicly just a namespace
2018-06-28T14:33:19Z Xach: Another problem is that you need (in-package "CL-IPFS") right afterwards if you want the subsequent symbols to be read in that package
2018-06-28T14:33:44Z Xach: Another issue is that you can't refer to "cl-ipfs:foo" unless foo is external in cl-ipfs, usually via an :export clause in defpackage.
2018-06-28T14:33:56Z Xach: you can refer to cl-ipfs::foo without exporting though.
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2018-06-28T14:34:31Z Xach: but also, what shka says is right - it would be even more virtuous to make a system definition and go from there
2018-06-28T14:34:36Z beach: Yet another issue is that the indentation of the forms following DEFPACKAGE suggests that they are somehow in the scope of that package definition.
2018-06-28T14:34:39Z Satou: oh no shka, I just want to create the package and test it from the other file, my intention is not to glue toghether a lot of files
2018-06-28T14:35:11Z beach: Satou: But you do want to create an ASDF system anyway.
2018-06-28T14:35:38Z shka: Satou: good!
2018-06-28T14:36:05Z shka: everything that Xach wrote is true
2018-06-28T14:36:18Z beach: Satou: The indentation of :method :post, etc looks like they are in the body of the LET.
2018-06-28T14:36:40Z shka: there is a decent tutorial on lisp packages that explains different issues people run into
2018-06-28T14:36:45Z Satou: sorry beach, that's how emacs indented it
2018-06-28T14:36:46Z shka: i can link it if you want to
2018-06-28T14:36:50Z Satou: please do shka
2018-06-28T14:36:57Z Xach: Satou: i find it helpful to change my mindset and think that my project is the CL development system, and I am extending it by adding new definitions, with some organization of those new definition names by packages. the definitions are for functions, bits of data, classes, etc. and then i interact with it by calling functions while the whole environment is running, without stopping and starting much.
2018-06-28T14:37:03Z beach: Satou: I don't believe that.
2018-06-28T14:37:10Z Satou: would a system be better ?
2018-06-28T14:37:23Z Xach: i have been in the land of "write a script in a file, run it, repeat" a little lately and it is a different mindset.
2018-06-28T14:37:30Z shka: Satou: http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf don't be offended by the title
2018-06-28T14:37:46Z shka: it is must read for every fresh lisper
2018-06-28T14:37:48Z Xach: or "write a dockerfile, build it for 15 minutes, run, repeat" which i find painful
2018-06-28T14:37:56Z Satou: thanks shka.
2018-06-28T14:38:09Z Xach: that is not only a stupid title, it includes stupid and sarcastic advice mixed in with the useful info. alas.
2018-06-28T14:39:16Z beach: Satou: For what it's worth, I totally agree with Xach, that the best way to think of your code is to imagine it extending an existing, executing Common Lisp system.  Not that you start that Common Lisp system every time you want to run your code.
2018-06-28T14:39:48Z shka: interactivity is good
2018-06-28T14:39:53Z shka: interactivity is fun
2018-06-28T14:39:59Z shka: interactivity saves time!
2018-06-28T14:40:10Z beach: Satou: Such an organization will help with lots of things like debugging, interactive incremental modifications, etc.
2018-06-28T14:40:10Z shka: :-)
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2018-06-28T14:41:09Z Satou: I see. However someone pointed out that I shouldn't use quicklisp and just define a package that relies on drakma and yason.
2018-06-28T14:41:32Z beach: Satou: Those are orthogonal issues.
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2018-06-28T14:42:11Z shka: Satou: you (ql:quickload :drakma) in the lisp file didn't you?
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2018-06-28T14:42:21Z Satou: I would like to encapsulate it somehow, and access the functions I've defined through an entity.
2018-06-28T14:42:32Z Satou: yes I did shka.
2018-06-28T14:42:33Z Beep-Lord: He probably meant as a quicklisp local project.
2018-06-28T14:42:34Z beach: Satou: If I were you, I would write an ASDF system definition called, say cl-ipfs.asdf.  I would have one file called packages.lisp and one file called cl-ipfs.lisp.
2018-06-28T14:42:49Z shka: Satou: let me show example
2018-06-28T14:43:01Z beach: Satou: The packages.lisp file would contain (defpackage #:cl-opfs ....).
2018-06-28T14:43:24Z beach: Satou: The cl-opfs.lisp file would start with (in-package #:cl-ipfs)
2018-06-28T14:43:26Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/documentation-utils-extensions/blob/master/documentation-utils-extensions.asd
2018-06-28T14:43:28Z shka: here
2018-06-28T14:43:34Z beach: s/opfs/ipfs/
2018-06-28T14:43:38Z shka: notice :depends-on
2018-06-28T14:44:18Z shka: if you have quicklisp configured according to the manual, loading documentation-utils-extensions will automaticly load :documentation-utils
2018-06-28T14:44:31Z shka: even though, i don't load it explicitly
2018-06-28T14:45:10Z shka: that's what person who said to you "don't use quicklisp" meant
2018-06-28T14:45:29Z shka: simply don't do it explicitly and use system definition tools
2018-06-28T14:45:37Z Satou: oh I see now.
2018-06-28T14:47:14Z Satou: thanks for telling me how I should do the layout of the files beach. You mentioned something about my code being indented badly, the forms after defpackage, does the packages.lisp just contain the defpackage and the other file starting with (in-package #:cl-ipfs) contain the functions?
2018-06-28T14:50:17Z shka: that's a good way to do it, yes
2018-06-28T14:50:23Z Beep-Lord: shka: How do you get quicklisp to load the library without loading it first?
2018-06-28T14:50:42Z shka: without loading quicklisp?
2018-06-28T14:51:08Z Beep-Lord: I mean with a ql:quick-load of all my dependencies
2018-06-28T14:51:54Z shka: oh, well i simply do (ql:quickload :documentation-utils-extensions) and quicklisp will also load everything that i depend-on (that would be documentation-utils itself)
2018-06-28T14:52:01Z shka: it is automatic
2018-06-28T14:52:20Z shka: but you must provide depend-on in defsystem
2018-06-28T14:52:23Z Beep-Lord: Oh, I thought you meant that it would load it straight from the asd definition without having to call ql:quickload.
2018-06-28T14:53:15Z shka: well, i think it is possible somehow to do so by setting right paths and using require instead
2018-06-28T14:53:19Z shka: but i never bothered
2018-06-28T14:53:27Z shka: quicklisp works just fine for me
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2018-06-28T14:53:48Z shka: i think it is great
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2018-06-28T15:01:11Z oni-on-ion: https://github.com/slyrus/opticl  -- whoa, surprised at the timing of the benchmark there. for somie reason i had this subconscious idea that inner loops are bulky or slow for CL. but this seems just like C
2018-06-28T15:01:15Z Satou: It is still hard for me to understand how to do that. I've created an the files as pointed by beach, but I have a hard time of using them tho
2018-06-28T15:01:42Z loke: oni-on-ion: why would they be slow?
2018-06-28T15:01:51Z oni-on-ion: Satou: copy from a similar project's package setup ?
2018-06-28T15:02:25Z oni-on-ion: loke: why would there be a monster in the dark ? the subconscious is ignorant exactly because of the lack of logical reasoning and quantized details =)
2018-06-28T15:02:45Z oni-on-ion: ie "never really thought about it" or consciously realised that i felt that way
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2018-06-28T15:03:51Z schweers: Satou: it might be a little advanced for you, but might also be exactly what you need: there is a project called "quickproject", which sets up a skeleton.  I use it every time I create a new system, as I can’t be bothered to create all those files manually.
2018-06-28T15:03:51Z oni-on-ion: i had this ancient wierd unfounded idea that lisp is generally "on top" of C. im just breaking old [thinking] habits =)
2018-06-28T15:04:12Z loke: oni-on-ion: There are several reasons one might have that impression. The two main ones would be 1) Belief that Lisp is interpreted and 2) That dynamic typing makes it slow
2018-06-28T15:04:37Z loke: 2) is actually valid, but Common Lisp allows for statically declared types, which is how you get it to get close to C speed (or even faster)
2018-06-28T15:04:43Z Satou: I'm going to take a look schweers, what I haven't figured out is how to actually "run" the project
2018-06-28T15:04:45Z Xach: I like the "vague unease and unfamiliarity" explanation too
2018-06-28T15:04:51Z beach: Satou: You enter Emacs and SLIME and then you say (asdf:load-system #:name-of-my-system).
2018-06-28T15:04:52Z Satou: like "what file do I load or how"
2018-06-28T15:04:56Z schweers: Satou: it took me the longest time too when I was beginning
2018-06-28T15:05:17Z Satou: ok beach, I'm going to try that in a bit. Thanks!
2018-06-28T15:05:55Z beach: Satou: You have to make sure ASDF can find your system definition.  I am not going to say what I do because most people use the local-projects directory of Quicklisp I think.
2018-06-28T15:06:08Z oni-on-ion: i also understand that Opticl was a second run at an image library, the first being ch-image, which used full on CLOS and the CLEM matrix processing lib. Opticl is optimized for arrays specialised on types (yay)
2018-06-28T15:06:10Z schweers: Satou: the gist is: create a system by invoking quickproject from a running lisp, edit the files and load it with either ql:quickload or asdf:load-system.  In either case, watch where you put your code.  You can configure asdf (and thus quicklisp), but the easiest route is to just put your code under ~/common-lisp
2018-06-28T15:07:14Z oni-on-ion: loke: it was built up from several years of urban myths while i grew up on C, theres no real architecture left but ruins of the ancient city that fall away as i learn reality more actually [of lisp and of compiler optimization]
2018-06-28T15:07:52Z loke: oni-on-ion: I found that liberally using DISASSEMBLE in SBCL is very informative
2018-06-28T15:07:55Z oni-on-ion: loke: and yea about types =) does CLOS have to be avoided to get the max optimizations here, though i wonder?
2018-06-28T15:08:15Z loke: It's very interesting to compile with different optimisation levels and type declarations to see how the generated assembly changes
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2018-06-28T15:08:25Z loke: oni-on-ion: In theory or in practice? :-)
2018-06-28T15:08:35Z schweers: oni-on-ion: I think o, but only do it if you can prove that you really need this kind of performance.
2018-06-28T15:08:42Z oni-on-ion: interesting =) loke , in practice, with sbcl =)
2018-06-28T15:09:07Z oni-on-ion: schweers: i see. wondering why the Opticl author decided against using CLOS for that time around, and "non-generic" functions
2018-06-28T15:09:21Z schweers: oni-on-ion: or as a learning excercise.  But beware that the performance differences vary from implementation to implementation (for obvious reasons)
2018-06-28T15:09:35Z loke: oni-on-ion: I mean, sure, in theory you can build a generic function call that is as fast as native, but I doubt it's actually been done. In practice, however, the difference is minimal, since you don't usually have generic calls in the deepest highly-optimised loops.
2018-06-28T15:09:43Z oni-on-ion: will reference sbcl until its not the main one
2018-06-28T15:10:03Z schweers: oni-on-ion: “until its not the main one”?
2018-06-28T15:10:05Z oni-on-ion: loke: hmm i see. but in theory, one could ?
2018-06-28T15:10:20Z oni-on-ion: schweers: until sbcl is not the main choice for all the reasons why it currently is
2018-06-28T15:10:35Z oni-on-ion: ie. disassemble and all its notes
2018-06-28T15:10:43Z loke: oni-on-ion: In my red-black-tree implementation, the nodes are actually CLOS instances, and generic accessor functions are used to read/write to its members. It's pretty damn fast, but as a test I changed it all to structs (which are direct-call) and the speed difference was barely noticeable (a couple of %)
2018-06-28T15:10:51Z loke: oni-on-ion: And that's highly optimised code
2018-06-28T15:10:57Z beach: oni-on-ion: That's a bit unfortunate, since avoiding CLOS often makes your code less modular.  And SBCL's CLOS implementation is based on code that was written before the processors looked the way they do now.
2018-06-28T15:11:18Z oni-on-ion: loke: ah, okay thats cool then, thats enough for me not to worry about the difference =)
2018-06-28T15:11:33Z oni-on-ion: ah whoa
2018-06-28T15:11:57Z oni-on-ion: is SICL doing CLOS ?
2018-06-28T15:12:11Z beach: Yes, but SICL doesn't really exist yet.
2018-06-28T15:12:37Z beach: But I designed a better generic dispatch algorithm that SICL is using and also Clasp now.
2018-06-28T15:12:47Z oni-on-ion: still, awesome =+)
2018-06-28T15:13:09Z schweers: I make heavy use of structs instead of “regular” CLOS classes (beach: can you help me out on proper terminology?) in my main project, because I need a lot of speed (it runs for at least 48h on modern hardware).  I’m seriously considering changing to CLOS, as I don’t think the performance difference is worth the hassle.
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2018-06-28T15:13:27Z beach: struct classes vs standard classes I would think.
2018-06-28T15:13:45Z schweers: k, thanks
2018-06-28T15:14:30Z beach: The sad thing would be if modern code were written with old implementation techniques in mind, and that when current implementations improve, that modern code would be sub-optimal, and just obsolete instead.
2018-06-28T15:15:11Z schweers: beach: you’re referring to my case? ;)
2018-06-28T15:15:17Z beach: No, not particularly.
2018-06-28T15:15:39Z oni-on-ion: i heard with CLOS we can defmethod on structs
2018-06-28T15:15:52Z schweers: oni-on-ion: you can, I do it
2018-06-28T15:15:58Z beach: Yes, any class can be dispatched on.
2018-06-28T15:16:31Z oni-on-ion: cool, so one could switch up to defclass when needed ?
2018-06-28T15:16:35Z beach: schweers: Er, so what performance gain do you think you will get from structs if you are using generic functions?
2018-06-28T15:16:44Z oni-on-ion: and/or that builtin CL types are also classes or have classes
2018-06-28T15:17:19Z schweers: beach: I only use generic function on structs for a few cases.  But I see your point.  This is one of the reasons I’m thinking about using standard classes instead
2018-06-28T15:17:26Z beach: got it.
2018-06-28T15:17:38Z beach: I guess accessors may still be somewhat faster with structs in SBCL.
2018-06-28T15:18:34Z loke: beach: Yes. But in practice the difference is so small I've never seen the need for it.
2018-06-28T15:18:43Z beach: I believe you.
2018-06-28T15:20:07Z oni-on-ion: i believe in miracles
2018-06-28T15:21:13Z beach: schweers: As you might have seen before in my musings, the argument (similar to yours) "we need all the speed we can get", really translates to "we are willing to spend any amount of additional effort to produce and maintain this thing, even if the speed improvement is infinitesimal".  Still I hear it over and over again in industry.
2018-06-28T15:21:55Z beach: But I won't get started with that discussion again.
2018-06-28T15:21:57Z oni-on-ion: (hmm, nothing for CL called miraCL eh? heres my opportunity.)
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2018-06-28T15:22:05Z schweers: well, I don’t need /all/ the speed I can get.  But yes, I see the fallacy of this reasoning in other people, but seem to have fallen victim of it myself.
2018-06-28T15:22:26Z beach: I understand the difference.
2018-06-28T15:22:27Z schweers: beach: do you see a lot of disagreement of that sentiment in here?
2018-06-28T15:22:35Z beach: Nope. :)
2018-06-28T15:22:47Z beach: Just worth repeating to those who haven't seen it yet. :)
2018-06-28T15:23:10Z beach: We can't know whether you have fallen victim until you attempt that change. :)
2018-06-28T15:23:51Z schweers: I guess so!
2018-06-28T15:24:00Z oni-on-ion: its the caffeine junkies, honestly i think; the more caff i got in veins, the faster i want things to go
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2018-06-28T15:25:10Z beach: schweers: Oh, and by the way, if you do attempt it, I am very interested in the outcome.
2018-06-28T15:25:39Z schweers: I guess it really would be best to attempt to carefully measure the runtime before and after the change
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2018-06-28T15:25:49Z beach: Definitely.
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2018-06-28T15:26:30Z schweers: Ah, I remember what one of my reasons was: as far as I know sbcl does not use the types given in the slots of a standard-class, but does so in structs.
2018-06-28T15:26:49Z beach: It does when you use DEBUG 3.
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2018-06-28T15:27:08Z schweers: I mean the type inferencer, in order to do performance optimizations
2018-06-28T15:27:16Z beach: Oh, that I don't know.
2018-06-28T15:27:28Z beach: Entirely possible.
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2018-06-28T15:27:52Z schweers: what exactly do you mean?  what does sbcl do with the slot types when debug is 3?  check on every access (write?), whether the type still holds?
2018-06-28T15:28:01Z beach: Yes.
2018-06-28T15:28:08Z oni-on-ion: sounds like an important thing to know
2018-06-28T15:28:26Z schweers: ah, I would have thought this was part of the safety optimizations
2018-06-28T15:29:14Z beach: I almost never need all the speed that I could get, so I run everything with (DEBUG 3) (SPEED 0) (SAFETY 3).
2018-06-28T15:29:18Z dim: you can't change your mind on struct slots types, I guess that comes with benefits
2018-06-28T15:29:25Z beach: I prefer working on my algorithms and data structures.
2018-06-28T15:29:41Z dlowe: I hear that = programs
2018-06-28T15:30:01Z beach: Indeed.
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2018-06-28T15:31:02Z dim: data structures come first, but well you need to have an idea of the algorithm you want to implement I guess
2018-06-28T15:31:39Z oni-on-ion: beach: just wondering, do you set that in slime or .sbclrc ?
2018-06-28T15:32:10Z beach: The latter.
2018-06-28T15:32:51Z Xach: I like restrict-compiler-policy for that
2018-06-28T15:32:52Z beach: Occasionally, for benchmarking code related to performance claims in a paper, I use local declarations that override this default.
2018-06-28T15:36:33Z beach: Today I have been working on specifying precise stack traversal for the SICL GC.  I think I need three tables for each possible frame: One table indicating what stack locations contain local variables with Common Lisp objects.  One table indicating what callee-saves registers contain variables with Common Lisp objects.  And one table mapping callee-saves register so stack locations in which caller data was saved.
2018-06-28T15:36:57Z oni-on-ion: hmm "Bear in mind, though, you may get some nasty surprises by meddling with global defaults. Just for example, with those development settings, libraries that make use of tail recursion may not work properly."
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2018-06-28T15:37:37Z beach: oni-on-ion: You mean libraries that count on implementation-specific handling of tail recursion?
2018-06-28T15:38:49Z beach: So, for the GC, I need to traverse the stack with a table holding frame-related values of callee-saves registers, swapping them with real stack locations as I go down the stack and swapping back when I back up the stack.
2018-06-28T15:39:20Z oni-on-ion: beach: sry not sure, its from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/39i6lx/is_there_a_way_to_have_a_global_declaim/  -- i might just put :optimize in defsystem for my own stuff
2018-06-28T15:39:56Z beach: oni-on-ion: Common Lisp does not require implementations to optimize tail recursion, so a library that relies on that is not portable.
2018-06-28T15:40:54Z oni-on-ion: beach: ah makes sense, i was wondering, the guy is just extra-defensive. i won't worry.
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2018-06-28T15:42:42Z beach: I have no opinion.  Like I said, the things I do run fine with my default settings, except for the occasional local declaration.  I have no desire to make my "production" code more optimized and less safe.
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2018-06-28T15:46:16Z oni-on-ion: i understand
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2018-06-28T16:04:46Z beach: I guess I should create an example and draw a figure of my stack traversal.
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2018-06-28T16:14:06Z didi: Tell me if this is reasonable: I have a macro like `dolist', that iterates over a data structure, offering an element at each loop pass. To avoid allocating a new element for every loop pass, I'm thinking of allocating only one element and filling it with data at the beginning of the loop. This means that any program using this macro can't just take the element and run with it. Is this OK?
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2018-06-28T16:15:19Z beach: didi: I don't understand.  Are you elements just Common Lisp objects or are they structured in some way?
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2018-06-28T16:17:30Z didi: beach: They are structured in a particular way. I interact with this data structure using an `element', but there is not `element' inside of it. When I add and `element' to it, it is broken down inside it. When I retrieve and `element' from it, it is constructed.
2018-06-28T16:18:05Z didi: s/and/an
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2018-06-28T16:18:25Z beach: I guess it's OK, if you tell your client what is going on.
2018-06-28T16:18:34Z didi: Cool, thank you.
2018-06-28T16:18:45Z beach: I am not sure why you would do it that way though.  It is a bit strange.
2018-06-28T16:19:08Z didi: Because I'm bashing my head against memory usage.
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2018-06-28T16:19:14Z beach: It means that client code can not add its own data to these elements, for instance.
2018-06-28T16:19:21Z didi: I'm desperately trying to reduce my memory footprint.
2018-06-28T16:19:29Z beach: OK.
2018-06-28T16:19:39Z beach: Do you care to explain your use case in more detail?
2018-06-28T16:21:18Z didi: beach: Sure. I have a big graph. This graph has something called a CONTACT. Whenever I want to iterate over all the contacts of this graph, I don't want to alloc each and every contact. Sometimes I just want to know if the contact I have in hand is inside this big graph.
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2018-06-28T16:22:57Z beach: didi: So are there contacts associated with the nodes of the graph scattered around the graph already, and you want to search for a particular one?
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2018-06-28T16:23:07Z didi: beach: Yeap.
2018-06-28T16:23:20Z beach: didi: I don't understand why searching for a contact would involve allocation.
2018-06-28T16:24:05Z didi: beach: Because there isn't an object contact inside it. When I ask for the contacts, it's produced using the relationships of the graph.
2018-06-28T16:24:59Z beach: Oh, so what I said was false.  There are not already contacts associated with nodes in the graph.  They are somehow generated during traversal?
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2018-06-28T16:26:10Z didi: beach: Oh, yes. But they are local, so there's no need for a search. They are almost like labels. So a contact is a triple (vertex1, vertex2, label).
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2018-06-28T16:26:35Z didi: But there is not triple (vertex1, vertex2, label) inside the graph. I have to produce it.
2018-06-28T16:26:40Z didi: s/not/no
2018-06-28T16:26:46Z beach: I see.
2018-06-28T16:26:49Z flip214: didi: DOLIST is already taken by CL.
2018-06-28T16:26:58Z beach: flip214: I misread it too.
2018-06-28T16:27:02Z didi: flip214: I know, silly. Mine is called DOCONTACTS.
2018-06-28T16:27:02Z beach: flip214: "like".
2018-06-28T16:27:07Z flip214: ah, okay.
2018-06-28T16:27:10Z flip214: regarding memory usage:
2018-06-28T16:27:14Z beach: And vertex1 and vertex2 are adjacent?
2018-06-28T16:27:21Z didi: beach: Yeap. You get it.
2018-06-28T16:27:29Z beach: And where is the label stored?
2018-06-28T16:27:31Z flip214: as long as it's documented that this MUST not be used outside (or in different threads!), you should be okay.
2018-06-28T16:27:56Z flip214: do you really need the object?
2018-06-28T16:28:16Z didi: beach: The graph is a hash table. Each hash key is a vertex, and each hash value is an associate list, where the assoc key is another vertex and the assoc value the label.
2018-06-28T16:28:35Z flip214: how about a local function that checks whether the current "element" is equal to some other one instead?
2018-06-28T16:28:43Z didi: flip214: It might work.
2018-06-28T16:28:45Z beach: didi: I see.
2018-06-28T16:29:09Z flip214: didi: so you have the vertexes stored twice, as V1 => V2 => label and V2 => V1 => label?
2018-06-28T16:29:30Z flip214: how many vertices are there?
2018-06-28T16:29:33Z didi: flip214: Yes. The assoc list is the adjacent list of each vertex.
2018-06-28T16:29:41Z didi: flip214: Millions.
2018-06-28T16:29:46Z flip214: ah, an alist, not anothe hash table. got it.
2018-06-28T16:29:58Z didi: flip214: I tried using another hash table, but the memory exploded.
2018-06-28T16:29:58Z flip214: sorry, have to get out of the train. will try to think of something.
2018-06-28T16:30:05Z didi: flip214: Thank you.
2018-06-28T16:30:56Z beach: didi: Presumably, since you are writing a macro, you might want to do other things with these contacts.  Not only search for an occurrence.  Right?
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2018-06-28T16:31:29Z didi: beach: Right. I used to return a list with all the contacts, when asked, but the memory exploded with these, so I came up with the macro idea.
2018-06-28T16:31:43Z beach: I understand.
2018-06-28T16:31:55Z beach: Can you just keep the components?
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2018-06-28T16:32:17Z beach: Like (do-all-contacts (vertex1 vertex2 label) ...)
2018-06-28T16:33:22Z didi: beach: Ah! You really get it. That's how I' doing right now. BUT, some functions ask for the CONTACT, so I sometimes have to alloc the contact anyway. What I'm in the middle of, is deciding if I go full CONTACT or not.
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2018-06-28T16:33:43Z beach: I am beginning to understand. :)
2018-06-28T16:35:23Z beach vanishes in order to have dinner, and lets flip214 come up with further ideas. 
2018-06-28T16:35:32Z didi: Thank you all. :-)
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2018-06-28T16:36:52Z flip214: didi: can you replace the ALISTs with two arrays, with the same index pointing to the vertex and the label?
2018-06-28T16:37:18Z flip214: should save you 2 words per vertex.
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2018-06-28T16:37:28Z flip214: *per edge
2018-06-28T16:37:57Z flip214: also, how sparse is the list of edges? 1:100, 1:1M?
2018-06-28T16:37:58Z didi: flip214: Hum. Not a bad idea. I'm always trying to reduce the memory usage of this beast. Thank you.
2018-06-28T16:38:14Z didi: flip214: I dunno, but pretty sparce.
2018-06-28T16:38:20Z didi: sparse*
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2018-06-28T16:39:34Z flip214: well, then have the vertices and labels in a global array, use the indizes to address them, and then you end up with two (say) 32bit numbers that you can pack into one 64bit value
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2018-06-28T16:41:07Z didi: Hum... nice.
2018-06-28T16:41:34Z didi &
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2018-06-28T17:09:08Z flip214: didi: so you'd have an array indexed by vertex# with arrays of 64bit fixnum values as elements...
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2018-06-28T17:18:09Z _death: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/829#829
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2018-06-28T17:31:23Z aeth: loke, oni-on-ion: Pretty much every advantage of interpreted languages that people list can be done by Common Lisp AOT implementations, better. That's probably why people think Lisp will be slow. (I'll concede the lack of sandboxing, but on the other hand only JS and Lua do sandboxing.)
2018-06-28T17:32:21Z aeth: oni-on-ion: I think you'll find that most of the very fast CL libraries work on specialized arrays. It's something that (SB)CL is good at (technically, some implementations like CLISP don't do this well).
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2018-06-28T17:35:26Z slyrus_: oni-on-ion, are you using opticl?
2018-06-28T17:36:29Z akkad ponders how CLISP still comes up as an option given the alternatives
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2018-06-28T17:37:05Z akkad: so on long running images, via slime/swank is there any sort of job control?
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2018-06-28T17:38:44Z sjl: Is there a way to reduce over a numeric range in lparallel without instantiating a sequence of the numbers, or will I need to roll it myself?
2018-06-28T17:39:31Z sjl: e.g. (lparallel:preduce (lambda (n x) (+ n (if (evenp x) x 0))) (alexandria:iota 101) :initial-value 0) but without allocating a sequence of consecutive integers
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2018-06-28T17:42:42Z Xach: akkad: what kind of job control did you have in mind?
2018-06-28T17:43:12Z akkad: well such as in posix shell. where you have background tasks you spawn, but can bring them to the foreground.
2018-06-28T17:43:38Z akkad: e.g. jobs/fg %1
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2018-06-28T17:45:19Z akkad: keeping track of background tasks you might have running in a loop, and say, updating the code, then stopping/restarting that given task
2018-06-28T17:45:54Z akkad: or is this just a bad pattern to apply to lisp?
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2018-06-28T17:48:34Z trittweiler: akkad: Assuming you're talking of threads (and not of child processes), do you know about `M-x slime-list-threads'?
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2018-06-28T17:49:37Z akkad: nope, I did not. ty
2018-06-28T17:49:48Z trittweiler: that will give you a list of all the threads and you can invoke the debugger on any of them, then possibly redefine a function and invoke the CONTINUE restart
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2018-06-28T17:50:20Z akkad: perfect.
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2018-06-28T18:06:21Z flip214: dim: also, are your labels BASE-STRINGS instead of STRINGS already?
2018-06-28T18:06:35Z flip214: dim: sorry, meant didi ... but autocomplete failed.
2018-06-28T18:06:47Z flip214: minion: memo for didi: are your labels BASE-STRINGS instead of STRINGS already?
2018-06-28T18:06:47Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell didi when he/she/it next speaks.
2018-06-28T18:07:31Z flip214: _death: "apt-get moo"
2018-06-28T18:08:24Z _death: yeah
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2018-06-28T21:17:57Z serichse` is now known as serichsen
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2018-06-28T21:37:48Z serichsen: Xach: I'm thinking about hard forking `cl-arrows' (https://github.com/nightfly19/cl-arrows).  nightfly19 does not respond to any contact attempt.  Its current state comes (entirely) from a fork/pull request by me, and another pull request where I rounded it out later is ignored.  My problem is that no one ever talked nor thought about a license.  Do you think that it would be right ethically if I renamed or copied my fork
2018-06-28T21:37:48Z serichsen: (https://github.com/Harleqin/cl-arrows) to `arrows', put my name in it and made it public domain?
2018-06-28T21:38:21Z theemacsshibe[m]: Is there a way to create a Hunchentoot handler for any URL? I need to create a proxy server for a specific application.
2018-06-28T21:38:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: serichsen: I don't think you have the right to the code, unless it's licensed under an OSS license
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2018-06-28T21:41:06Z Beep-Lord: Code without a license is considered proprietary.
2018-06-28T21:41:11Z aeth: serichsen: If there's no license then legally no one has rights to it
2018-06-28T21:41:36Z aeth: I suppose there's an implicit right to use it and to submit improvements to it if it's on Github, but not much beyond that.
2018-06-28T21:42:13Z aeth: s/no one has rights to it/no one but the author has rights to it/
2018-06-28T21:42:51Z aeth: (github probably has terms of service letting you do the whole pull request thing no matter the license)
2018-06-28T21:44:10Z Bike: "If there's no license then legally no one has rights to it" is incorrect. you don't need explicit copyright notices nowadays, it's the base assumption.
2018-06-28T21:44:45Z serichsen: Ah.  I read a bit about copyright in the USA, and as far as I was able to tell, if something is done in a collaboration, all authors have the right to the entirety (unless they have a contract or license saying otherwise).  But that doesn't answer how it is internationally anyway, and I asked about ethics.
2018-06-28T21:45:09Z Bike: ethically i see no problem with doing whatever with abandonware.
2018-06-28T21:45:11Z aeth: Bike: No one except the author, I corrected myself
2018-06-28T21:45:22Z Bike: oh, missed that, sorry.
2018-06-28T21:46:10Z Beep-Lord: serichsen: I'd rewrite the software. There could be legal issues for anyone that would use your software otherwise. It doesn't look like it would be too hard to do.
2018-06-28T21:46:53Z Beep-Lord: When in doubt, you could e-mail Stallman. He'd have a pretty concise answer.
2018-06-28T21:47:10Z aeth: https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#5-license-grant-to-other-users
2018-06-28T21:48:13Z aeth: Even with no license the user has the right to view and fork it if it's on Github. The right only applies to use on Github.
2018-06-28T21:48:15Z Bike: lol "perform", what
2018-06-28T21:48:27Z pjb: aeth: there's definitely no implicit right on github or other!
2018-06-28T21:48:41Z aeth: You cannot use it. You can fork it, submit pull requests, etc., but not use it.
2018-06-28T21:48:49Z aeth: If it's posted to GH without a license, you're in violation even using it.
2018-06-28T21:49:05Z aeth: The ToS only covers use directly through GH.
2018-06-28T21:49:19Z Beep-Lord: ToS generally don't hold up in court very well anyways.
2018-06-28T21:49:21Z aeth: Arguably, you can download it since that's through a github service.
2018-06-28T21:49:34Z pjb: aeth: well, you can always use it, patch it, but you're cannot distribute it. Ie. forking of repos without a license should be forbidden in the first place!
2018-06-28T21:50:03Z Xach: serichsen: i think that is cool
2018-06-28T21:50:31Z aeth: pjb: The ToS requires any public repos to be usable through GitHub services. So you can fork it (on Github) and you can do all the other Github stuff. But I don't think you'd have the right to run it
2018-06-28T21:50:51Z pjb: aeth: I would argue that forking constitute redistribution. Which is not allowed by copyright when no specific license is provided.
2018-06-28T21:51:16Z aeth: pjb: The license, when none is given, on Github is https://help.github.com/articles/github-terms-of-service/#5-license-grant-to-other-users
2018-06-28T21:52:07Z aeth: So it's not a true "no license"
2018-06-28T21:52:30Z Beep-Lord: I highly doubt their ToS would supersede the author's copyright in court.
2018-06-28T21:52:31Z pjb: ok.
2018-06-28T21:52:56Z pjb: we'll have to check gitlab, etc.
2018-06-28T21:53:01Z aeth: Beep-Lord: Either way, its presence on Quicklisp is apparently violating the license.
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2018-06-28T21:53:22Z aeth: s/license/copyright/
2018-06-28T21:54:52Z pjb: one problem anyways with the default github licensing, is that once you take a copy out of github, arguably the github terms don't apply anymore.
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2018-06-28T21:57:55Z aeth: I read through the Gitlab ToS and I can't find anything similar.
2018-06-28T21:58:02Z serichsen: OK, so `arrows' it is.  I guess it clears up authorship, too.
2018-06-28T21:58:49Z Beep-Lord: serichsen: Make sure you base your work off of your own ideas or another project that has an open license, such as swiss-arrows.
2018-06-28T21:59:12Z serichsen: Beep-Lord: I have demonstrably written it entirely.
2018-06-28T21:59:48Z serichsen: swiss-arrows is a Clojure library
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2018-06-28T22:07:27Z serichsen: Thanks Xach
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2018-06-28T22:59:39Z kenster: Does anyone have some time to help me fix a macro I wrote?
2018-06-28T22:59:54Z kenster: https://hastebin.com/qajabegipo.lisp
2018-06-28T23:00:06Z kenster: I'm trying to get (defcmethod upload-session "new" new :pointer) to define a method on the class with the name new that calls a C function called "FileUploadingSession_new" that returns a pointer.
2018-06-28T23:00:15Z kenster: so I could simply do (new upload-session)
2018-06-28T23:00:24Z kenster:  and even have a &body in defcmethod that acts as a callback inside of the method
2018-06-28T23:00:43Z kenster: the issue is the arguments list that I'm passing up, I want ((test :int) (blah :int)) to turn into (test :int) (blah :int) when it gets passed into defcfun
2018-06-28T23:01:00Z kenster: but I also want to properly handle the empty arguments list case, which is to not pass anything into defcfun — besides of course ,cfun-name and ,creturn-type
2018-06-28T23:04:58Z serichsen: kenster: what happens if you use ,@arguments?
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2018-06-28T23:10:46Z kenster: same kind of error really serichsen
2018-06-28T23:10:53Z kenster: not sure what you're referring to
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2018-06-28T23:13:25Z kenster: actually I get
2018-06-28T23:13:27Z kenster:      The value
2018-06-28T23:13:28Z kenster:        #:ARGUMENTS314
2018-06-28T23:13:30Z kenster:      is not of type
2018-06-28T23:13:31Z kenster:        LIST
2018-06-28T23:13:41Z kenster: well, that's the same thing
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2018-06-28T23:15:06Z serichsen: sorry, had not scrolled down to the error
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2018-06-28T23:15:37Z serichsen: kenster: the value #:arguments314 is an uninterned symbol.
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2018-06-28T23:17:57Z serichsen: kenster: you should not put the macro arguments into a once-only
2018-06-28T23:19:44Z kenster: you mean just arguments? or all of the arguments I passinto cffi-defun?
2018-06-28T23:20:23Z kenster: oh nevermind
2018-06-28T23:20:57Z kenster: for some reason though, cfun-name isn't being outputted the way I expect
2018-06-28T23:21:11Z kenster: (FILEBUCKET::CFFI-DEFUN # #:RETURN-TYPE309 #:C-STRUCT-NAME310 NIL)
2018-06-28T23:23:01Z kenster: is there a name collision problem with nesting once-only like this serichsen
2018-06-28T23:23:11Z kenster: I think that's what you're talking about, right?
2018-06-28T23:26:01Z pillton: Sometimes when writing complicated macros it is better to use a function to generate the code.
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2018-06-28T23:26:53Z pillton: You can use the REPL to help debug the generator.
2018-06-28T23:27:05Z kenster: the problem is I cannot use apply on defcfun because defcfun is a macro :p
2018-06-28T23:29:21Z pillton: Lets assume %defcmethod is a function. What code do you want it to generate from its arguments?
2018-06-28T23:32:24Z kenster: a defcfun with the bound method signature and a defined method that applies a list of arguments to that method
2018-06-28T23:32:37Z kenster: i.e.
2018-06-28T23:33:24Z kenster: (defcfun "FileBucketUploadSession_new" :pointer
2018-06-28T23:33:26Z kenster:                  (pointer :pointer))
2018-06-28T23:33:41Z kenster: and also a defmethod that wraps that, with an optional callback
2018-06-28T23:34:09Z kenster: I want to safely use C functions in a lispy manner, I can't use SWIG because I am using C++17
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2018-06-28T23:38:18Z pjb: kenster: don't use let, use progn. let doesn't preserve toplevelness!
2018-06-28T23:39:32Z pillton: kenster: You don't apply-list-as-rest. It should just be (apply #',ffi-method-name method-args).
2018-06-28T23:39:39Z pillton: You don't need apply-list-as-rest.
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2018-06-28T23:44:14Z kenster: okay
2018-06-28T23:44:31Z pjb: kenster: when you test if arguments is a list, this is something that is known at macroexpansion time.  Therefore there is no reason to test it at run-time!  You can select the defcfun form at macroexpansion time.
2018-06-28T23:44:41Z kenster: the empyt let there is because I moved some arguments around pjb
2018-06-28T23:44:43Z pjb: cffi-defun I mean.
2018-06-28T23:45:04Z pjb: same thing for if ,ptr.
2018-06-28T23:45:08Z pjb: You do it all wrong.
2018-06-28T23:45:28Z pjb: kenster: have you ever tried macroexpand on your macros?
2018-06-28T23:45:34Z kenster: yes
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2018-06-28T23:47:54Z kenster: can you tell me how that translates into the lisp code
2018-06-28T23:47:58Z kenster: sorry kind of new to writing macros
2018-06-28T23:49:13Z kenster: okay I think I did it, but I'm still erroring
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2018-06-28T23:49:21Z kenster: though I don't check the if ptr at runtime
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2018-06-28T23:49:27Z kenster: so that's good.
2018-06-28T23:49:45Z kenster: but I still have (FILEBUCKET::CFFI-DEFUN # #:RETURN-TYPE301 #:C-STRUCT-NAME302 NIL)
2018-06-28T23:50:03Z kenster: # there should be that cfun-name value
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2018-06-28T23:57:34Z serichsen: That might be a problem of the class you use there.  By the way, you should not use slot-value to interact with your objects (unless it is inside of something like initialize-instance) but define readers or accessors.  Usually # is a placeholder of the printer for things it doesn't show completely.
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2018-06-29T00:04:07Z pjb: kenster: https://hastebin.com/sayudexede.lisp
2018-06-29T00:04:46Z pjb: serichsen: the problem is worse: you cannot access slots (even :allocation :class slots) without an instance!
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2018-06-29T00:07:00Z kenster: pjb: ah okay
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2018-06-29T00:09:37Z pjb: kenster: now, notice that I used make-symbol. This doesn't intern the symbol. This show that you could just use gensym there, without concatenate etc.
2018-06-29T00:09:44Z kenster: oddly I still get
2018-06-29T00:09:48Z kenster:   error:
2018-06-29T00:09:49Z kenster:     (during macroexpansion of (DEFCMETHOD UPLOAD-SESSION
2018-06-29T00:09:51Z kenster:         ...))
2018-06-29T00:09:52Z kenster:     There is no class named FILEBUCKET::UPLOAD-SESSION.
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2018-06-29T00:10:14Z kenster: right, that makes sense
2018-06-29T00:10:23Z pjb: Right. Wrap the defclass in an (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) …)
2018-06-29T00:10:36Z pjb: I only tested it without compiling.
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2018-06-29T00:13:56Z pjb: kenster: also, since as you can see you cannot access the struct-name slot without making an instance, usually class attributes are just kept in global variables.  In this case, you need a map between class name and structure name in the compilation environment for use at macroexpansion time.  You could keep this map in a global variable (a hash-table), and fill it with a specific macro.  Or you could write your own class definini
2018-06-29T00:13:56Z pjb: macro that could expand into this at compiliation time, and the defclass form for run-time.
2018-06-29T00:14:00Z kenster: okay well I also had to remove read-only, that's only for structs
2018-06-29T00:14:18Z kenster: right
2018-06-29T00:14:32Z pjb: Didn't you read my source? I corrected your defclass form too!
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2018-06-29T00:15:00Z kenster: I saw, yeah
2018-06-29T00:15:06Z kenster: I didn't copy that part :p
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2018-06-29T00:15:35Z kenster:  style-warning:
2018-06-29T00:15:37Z kenster:     undefined function: #:G228
2018-06-29T00:15:38Z kenster: I wonder what this could be
2018-06-29T00:17:13Z serichsen: Xach: https://gitlab.com/Harleqin/arrows
2018-06-29T00:17:41Z pjb: kenster: this is because you compute the names instead of taking them as parameter to your macros.
2018-06-29T00:18:05Z pjb: kenster: cffi-method-name is not the name of the function defined with defcfun in cffi-defun, therefore no such function exist.
2018-06-29T00:18:33Z kenster: how do lightning fast spot this pjb, experience? lol
2018-06-29T00:18:39Z pjb: Yes.
2018-06-29T00:19:12Z pjb: Have fun! Good night!
2018-06-29T00:19:22Z kenster: thanks for the help, night
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2018-06-29T02:56:51Z mathZ: `pkg info maxima` => maxima-5.41.0, why doesnot maxima run ~/maxima-init.mac automatically after started ?
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2018-06-29T04:09:07Z LdBeth: Good afternoon
2018-06-29T04:09:40Z oni-on-ion: welcome
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2018-06-29T04:11:28Z LdBeth: mathZ: it is described in man page
2018-06-29T04:12:17Z LdBeth: mathZ: see env $MAXIMA_USERDIR
2018-06-29T04:17:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2018-06-29T04:18:36Z MichaelRaskin: Good morning
2018-06-29T04:19:13Z MichaelRaskin: Sorry, I was being too optimistic about stabilising a non-merge sort.
2018-06-29T04:19:25Z beach: Oh! :(
2018-06-29T04:21:09Z beach: I guess lots of smart people with lots of time have already tried that.  Not that this fact guarantees that it can't be done.  Just that it might take some time. :)
2018-06-29T04:21:48Z beach: I mean, I make my living questioning what lots of smart people have agreed upon for decades, but that happens to no longer be true.
2018-06-29T04:23:52Z beach: MichaelRaskin: Have you found work for next year?
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2018-06-29T04:29:51Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it is not definitive enough that I publically say yes without any qualifications on such a statement, but omst likely yes.
2018-06-29T04:30:29Z beach: Good.  Congratulations.
2018-06-29T04:30:57Z MichaelRaskin: I don't accept congratulations until it becomes definitive enough…
2018-06-29T04:31:05Z beach: Right, sorry.
2018-06-29T04:33:13Z MichaelRaskin: As for smart people agreeing — well, my ICALP talk this year will be a set of ideas I had in around a week or two, together they (with something in the paper but not in the talk because technical details) disprove the conjecture most people in the field were inclined to believe… You never know.
2018-06-29T04:33:38Z MichaelRaskin: But as for the sort, I should have seen my idea were a bit too optimistic.
2018-06-29T04:37:41Z beach: Our colleague idurand worked with Aart Middledorp for some time.  His standard format for a talk started with "In <year>, <person> wrote a paper in which it was proved that <theorem>.  Here is a counterexample to that theorem."  Very impressive.
2018-06-29T04:39:14Z MichaelRaskin: Heh. Yeah, that is impressive, but this is what I definitely cannot do — it needs studying something deeply.
2018-06-29T04:39:37Z beach: Oh?
2018-06-29T04:39:40Z beach: I am surprised.
2018-06-29T04:42:00Z MichaelRaskin: Well, in the sense that you need to actually look at a field, have a good grasp of what is known and what is not over a large area of related things, and read a lot of papers with this in mind. It is too much specialisation for me, I am more of «wait, you are applying this from adjacent field Y instead of a better fit in an almost-adjacent field Z» person.
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2018-06-29T04:42:25Z beach: Yes, I see.
2018-06-29T04:43:25Z beach: That is definitely also a winning strategy in CS.  Few people have the broad knowledge to do that, so there are lots of good results to be found.
2018-06-29T04:43:57Z MichaelRaskin: Well, it makes it harder to write «research interests» part of applications…
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2018-06-29T04:44:23Z beach: Heh!  Yeah, there is that.  "Um, EVERYTHING".
2018-06-29T04:45:08Z MichaelRaskin: But few people know basic discrete probability well, or remember their second-year algebra — at all. Which is the reason for my ICALP papers in 2017 and in 2018.
2018-06-29T04:45:46Z beach: Nice!
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2018-06-29T04:49:32Z MichaelRaskin: Then again, I am grateful to the people more immersed into the fields in question for telling me how to actually write that down (oh I did write it down on my own, but the target audience for that specific order of explanation turned out to be empty…)
2018-06-29T04:51:18Z beach: I know precisely what you mean.
2018-06-29T04:52:23Z beach: When I did my PhD and wrote an early paper, I wrote it so that people could understand what I was doing, and I was told that this is not how it is done.  You reverse the order of your explanations in the paper.
2018-06-29T04:52:51Z MichaelRaskin: Not _just_ that.
2018-06-29T04:53:22Z MichaelRaskin: Reversing is enough for linear enough things, flattening a DAG is even more fun
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2018-06-29T04:54:19Z MichaelRaskin: (Can we please actually learn how to use hypertext, pretty please? I am not saying I know what exactly to do, I am saying there is not enough diversity of attempts)
2018-06-29T04:55:34Z beach: Sure.  All I meant was that conventions are different in different domains, just like conventions are different for different programming languages.  And one just has to learn and adapt.
2018-06-29T04:56:22Z MichaelRaskin: Yes, and when I am not insider in any specific field, that learning often needs direct explanations from insiders — every time.
2018-06-29T04:57:06Z beach: I can see that.
2018-06-29T04:57:37Z MichaelRaskin: But still, acceptance of learning to use hypertext would help…
2018-06-29T04:58:05Z beach: I suppose so.
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2018-06-29T04:59:13Z MichaelRaskin: It is definitely not a common knowledge in the I know they know I know sense; I wonder if it is universally obvious knowledge that just doesn't become common knowledge because pf coordination problems.
2018-06-29T05:00:15Z beach: Are you referring to hypertext again?
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2018-06-29T05:00:35Z MichaelRaskin: Yes
2018-06-29T05:02:16Z beach: I am convinced that not many colleagues even give it a thought.  I mean, they don't even give any thought to the basic quality of their writing, as Steven Pinker so amusingly points out in his book and in his talks.
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2018-06-29T05:05:39Z MichaelRaskin: Well, then there is a clear incentive problem around basic quality of explanation.
2018-06-29T05:05:52Z beach: Indeed.
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2018-06-29T05:06:49Z MichaelRaskin: Not in the sense of lack of incentive — this can be overcome with appeals to morality, in the sense of visible negative incentives.
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2018-06-29T05:09:26Z MichaelRaskin: (then again, the problem of negative results is easier to define and it is still not going anywhere)
2018-06-29T05:09:29Z beach: I am not sure that's enough.  As pinker explains, most colleagues just don't know how to write, and learning that is not obvious.
2018-06-29T05:10:07Z MichaelRaskin: I can explicitly declare that the style I prefer to read is generally considered bad writing.
2018-06-29T05:11:55Z MichaelRaskin: And I have my doubts whether «good writing» is good for 80%-of-the-people-in-the-field, and not something like 45%-good with some alternatives having 15% and 20% target audience.
2018-06-29T05:12:26Z beach: Learning new things is hard.  Most people, even scientists, mathematicians, and computer scientist, are "performance oriented" (have a "fixed mindset" as Carol Dweck puts it) in most domains, and they have trained themselves to overcome it in their own narrow domain.
2018-06-29T05:13:41Z beach: MichaelRaskin: I think there are different kinds of bad writing.  I think you are referring to the bad writing that just does not follow conventions in the field.  But what Pinker refers to is a much broader concept of bad writing, that I am very sure you would not appreciate either.
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2018-06-29T05:15:03Z beach: Anyway, I finished my coffee, and I should get to work on the specification of the SICL garbage collector(s).
2018-06-29T05:15:41Z MichaelRaskin: It is not about locla conventions, it goes across the fields. The question is what is entangled mess and what is a good explanation that attaches all the associations where they are needed (yes, this is the same thing)
2018-06-29T05:16:20Z MichaelRaskin: Have a nice and productive day!
2018-06-29T05:16:24Z beach: You too.
2018-06-29T05:16:30Z MichaelRaskin: Thanks
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2018-06-29T05:46:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Was there a common lisp written in prolog released recently?
2018-06-29T05:47:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I thought I remember announcements to this effect, but I can’t find any trace of it.
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2018-06-29T05:47:42Z MichaelRaskin: In that direction, not the other way round? Probably not a Common Lisp, just some kind of Lisp, Common Lisp is just too large.
2018-06-29T05:48:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I remember talk of a subset of Common Lisp.
2018-06-29T05:48:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the last couple months.
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2018-06-29T05:55:31Z aeth: dmiles iirc
2018-06-29T05:56:28Z aeth: https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp?from=2017-12-01T01%3A53%3A36&to=2018-06-29T13%3A53%3A36&search=prolog
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2018-06-29T06:05:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, here it is, I think: https://github.com/TeamSPoon/wam_common_lisp
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2018-06-29T06:10:03Z LdBeth: Does Climacs has a REPL?
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2018-06-29T06:17:00Z pillton: LdBeth: You should be able to run the inspector which is bundled with your CLIM implementation.
2018-06-29T06:17:14Z pillton: LdBeth: I am not an expert on CLIM (but nobody is answering you).
2018-06-29T06:17:38Z pillton: Sorry, the listener.
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2018-06-29T06:19:47Z pillton: LdBeth: It is probably best to ask in #clim.
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2018-06-29T06:38:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: Ah, my mobile client missed your message for some reason...
2018-06-29T06:38:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2018-06-29T06:56:08Z beach: LdBeth: Climacs has M-: as I recall, bit since it's a CLIM application, you would be much better off to start the CLIM listener instead.
2018-06-29T06:56:34Z beach: LdBeth: Oops, pillton already said that.  Sorry.
2018-06-29T06:56:55Z beach: LdBeth: What is it that you are trying to do?
2018-06-29T06:57:28Z LdBeth: Thanks
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2018-06-29T06:58:58Z LdBeth: beach: just make a attempt to switch my workflow from GNU/Emacs
2018-06-29T06:59:19Z beach: OK, I see.
2018-06-29T06:59:40Z beach: Well, the first thing to do then is to get rid of the idea that everything goes through the editor.
2018-06-29T06:59:52Z beach: It was done that way with Emacs, because there was nothing below it then.
2018-06-29T07:00:23Z beach: With CLIM/McCLIM, you have the listener, so that Climacs can be used only for editing and not for the other tasks.
2018-06-29T07:00:58Z beach: So there is the listener for REPL interaction, Clouseau for inspecting objects, a "debugger" for inspecting backtraces, etc.
2018-06-29T07:01:24Z beach: You can run them separately or from the listener, but it would be unusual to run them from Climacs.
2018-06-29T07:05:06Z LdBeth: Yah, I see
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2018-06-29T07:14:23Z LdBeth: It’s a shame that I haven’t noticed there’s a graphic listener.
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2018-06-29T07:16:47Z beach: Yeah.  It's not perfect, but it works for most things.
2018-06-29T07:17:03Z beach: And it allows the user to experiment with CLIM very easily.
2018-06-29T07:17:23Z beach: You can call drawing primitives directly, for instance, and see the result immediately.
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2018-06-29T07:24:25Z beach: Like this: http://metamodular.com/clim-listener.png
2018-06-29T07:25:40Z beach: The call to LOOP is in capital letters, because I used M-p on a previous interaction.
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2018-06-29T07:31:05Z LdBeth: It seems a problem to save the graphic listener into a excitable
2018-06-29T07:31:16Z LdBeth: *excutable
2018-06-29T07:31:53Z beach: Sorry, I have never tried it, so I don't know what the problem might be.
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2018-06-29T07:39:59Z LdBeth: Anyway, I can still create a Command wrapper
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2018-06-29T09:29:15Z beach: I need some advice.  In SICL, a heap-allocated object is either a CONS cell or a GENERAL INSTANCE.  A CONS cell is represented as two consecutive words.  A general instance is represented as a two-word header where the first word points to the class and the second one to a RACK.  The rack contains all other information like the slots of a standard object, the elements of an array, etc. etc.
2018-06-29T09:29:21Z beach: I was thinking of representing the rack pointer as an untagged value, but this is problematic for the garbage collector in that I would have to have information in each stack frame concerning what stack location and register contain rack pointers.  Plus, after various optimization tricks, there might be raw pointers to an ELEMENT of a rack and not only to the beginning of it.
2018-06-29T09:29:22Z beach: However, I currently have one unused tag.  I could use it for all rack pointers (to the beginning or to an element).  This way of doing it would also make it possible to recognize whether a particular 2-word item is a CONS cell or a general instance because only general instances contain a rack pointer in the second word.  Is this a good idea or am I missing something?
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2018-06-29T09:33:15Z beach: This recent conundrum, by the way, shows the intimate relationship between data representation and the constraints on the garbage collector.
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2018-06-29T09:35:06Z flip214: yeah, lots of interactions there
2018-06-29T09:35:26Z flip214: beach: do you anticipate that you'll need another tag in the future?
2018-06-29T09:35:42Z beach: No.
2018-06-29T09:35:43Z flip214: can you get more tags by changing some constant easily?
2018-06-29T09:35:55Z flip214: so, what's the downside to using that additional tag?
2018-06-29T09:36:07Z beach: One tag is for all immediate objects and they don't take up the entire word anyway.
2018-06-29T09:36:29Z beach: The downside is that I need an offset to access a rack element.
2018-06-29T09:36:38Z beach: For x86-64 that's not a problem.
2018-06-29T09:36:50Z beach: But RISC machines might require an addition.
2018-06-29T09:36:59Z beach: Probably not many.
2018-06-29T09:37:11Z flip214: and that'll be so often that it might become a performance problem?
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2018-06-29T09:37:45Z beach: Yes, that's a frequent operation.  But I think all RISC processor that don't have an offset in the instruction optimize this case.
2018-06-29T09:37:55Z flip214: my first reaction is "that is so low-level optimization that a special case in the compiler or a bit of assembly might fix that"
2018-06-29T09:38:18Z flip214: but I'm not that proficient about RISC -- not even sure whether eg. ARM would fall into that category
2018-06-29T09:38:37Z beach: I think ARM has a small offset in the instruction.
2018-06-29T09:38:47Z flip214: yeah, so that problem wouldn't even exist
2018-06-29T09:39:10Z beach: Well, it is not "fixable".  What I could do is to make sure all rack pointers have to be recomputed after a function call.
2018-06-29T09:39:19Z flip214: I guess that main memory access has such a big penalty already (on cold caches at least) that the one ADD wouldn't be a problem
2018-06-29T09:39:21Z beach: Then the stack frame would contain no rack pointers.
2018-06-29T09:39:48Z beach: flip214: Yes, exactly.  The addition would be a very fast operation compared to the memory access.
2018-06-29T09:40:20Z beach: And I presume such RISC machines are superscalar, so that they can do the addition in parallel with other stuff.
2018-06-29T09:40:23Z flip214: a stack frame _can_ contain rack pointers - as long as there's a visible reference to the _base_ of the rack too. then the other pointers could just be hidden
2018-06-29T09:41:01Z flip214: ie. as long as a _visible_ reference to the rack is on the stack, you can have any number of (GC-) _invisible_ pointers to the same rack as well
2018-06-29T09:41:31Z beach: That's true.
2018-06-29T09:41:32Z flip214: that would mean you have a bit more stack usage, but no register addressing or GC issues
2018-06-29T09:41:39Z beach: But that's a lot of information to keep around.
2018-06-29T09:42:00Z jmercouris: hello everyone
2018-06-29T09:42:10Z flip214: well, how many racks will a tight loop access simultaneously? at most 3 or 4, else it wouldn't be a tight loop anymore, right?
2018-06-29T09:42:14Z beach: Hello jmercouris.
2018-06-29T09:42:30Z beach: flip214: Yes, max 2 I would think.
2018-06-29T09:42:31Z flip214: or do you mean "a lot of information the compiler has to keep around"?
2018-06-29T09:42:37Z beach: Yes, that.
2018-06-29T09:42:41Z jmercouris: beach: I haven't gotten around to reading the papers yet, they are on my queue
2018-06-29T09:42:41Z beach: And for the GC to access.
2018-06-29T09:42:52Z beach: jmercouris: Don't worry about it.
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2018-06-29T09:43:29Z flip214: well, the compiler needs to have a few local variables (or make them thread-local?!), where references to things addressed opaquely by registers are referenced
2018-06-29T09:44:05Z flip214: so you'd only need a few pointers in the TLA, and a store to them every now and then
2018-06-29T09:44:14Z flip214: and the GC has a few more roots to look at
2018-06-29T09:44:51Z flip214: for the easiest (and perhaps worst) case, have one pointer in the TLA for each addressing register
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2018-06-29T09:45:12Z flip214: when a rack address is loaded into the register, emit a store of the rack base address to the corresponding TLA pointer
2018-06-29T09:45:14Z beach: I am not sure I follow.
2018-06-29T09:45:19Z flip214: then the register itself can be used at will
2018-06-29T09:45:42Z beach: Oh, additional stores would be prohibitive.
2018-06-29T09:45:53Z flip214: beach: no, not necessarily.
2018-06-29T09:46:20Z flip214: first of all, they'd only be _concurrently_ read on the start of a GC (fetch all roots), and never concurrently _written_ by another thread.
2018-06-29T09:46:35Z flip214: so there's no bus contention or so.
2018-06-29T09:46:36Z beach: OK, let's do this from the start.  I'm lost (as usual).
2018-06-29T09:46:47Z flip214: okay.
2018-06-29T09:46:48Z flip214: ----------------
2018-06-29T09:47:10Z flip214: you've got space for a pointer for each CPU register in the thread-local-area.
2018-06-29T09:47:21Z beach: Hold on please.
2018-06-29T09:47:31Z beach: I was lost in your first phrase.
2018-06-29T09:47:36Z beach: We need to back up.
2018-06-29T09:47:46Z beach: Or you will emit more phrases that make me even more lost.
2018-06-29T09:48:06Z beach: You said "the compiler needs to have a few local variables... where references to things addressed opaquely by registers are referenced".
2018-06-29T09:48:19Z beach: There are at least 3 pieces of information in there that I don't understand.
2018-06-29T09:48:26Z beach: First "the compiler".
2018-06-29T09:49:05Z beach: Can I assume that you mean that those variables are not used during compilation, but that are needed so that the compiler can emit code using them?
2018-06-29T09:49:43Z beach: Next what is a "thing addressed opaquely"?
2018-06-29T09:49:51Z beach: More generally, what is "opaque addressing"?
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2018-06-29T09:50:37Z flip214: one sec, I'll catch my thoughts and try to compose an email that's better worded.
2018-06-29T09:50:50Z beach: flip214: Sorry about all this.  It's an occupational hazard.  I was trained as an engineer and a scientist and I must understand every word.
2018-06-29T09:51:16Z beach: OK, that's better.  No rush.  When things are written down, we can make iterations.
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2018-06-29T09:52:14Z beach: This happens to me so often that I wonder why I seem to be one of the few people who can't understand quick exchanges like this.
2018-06-29T09:52:43Z beach: I mean, I don't think of myself as more stupid than most.
2018-06-29T09:53:10Z beach: Oh, well.  Lunch time anyway.  Time for a break.
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2018-06-29T09:53:30Z flip214: beach: the problem might as well be me, as I don't have formal training and so might have differences in my vocabulary.
2018-06-29T09:58:14Z jmercouris: anyone know of an implementation of DB Scan in common lisp?
2018-06-29T09:58:26Z jmercouris: context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBSCAN
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2018-06-29T10:21:26Z beach: flip214: I guess we'll find out.
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2018-06-29T11:11:57Z shrdlu68: How do I get the exact point where a condition was raised?
2018-06-29T11:12:39Z shrdlu68: The backtrace isn't very meaningful.
2018-06-29T11:14:32Z jackdaniel:  if you press `v` on the frame (given you use sldb) it should open a buffer with the source location in question
2018-06-29T11:14:42Z shka: you may need optimize for debug
2018-06-29T11:15:51Z loke: And some lisps are better than others when it comes to debugging information
2018-06-29T11:16:17Z loke: I sometimes get expresment positively surprised when it comes to SBCL's ability to find the correct source line... Sometimes I get very disappointed too.
2018-06-29T11:16:50Z loke: I meant to say “extremely”. I have no idea how I managed to make such a typo.
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2018-06-29T11:30:04Z jmercouris: loke: sometimes when you are typing expresment fast it happens
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2018-06-29T11:40:41Z jkordani: I like it, expresment
2018-06-29T11:41:19Z jmercouris: it sounds like a french way of saying extremely
2018-06-29T11:41:40Z jmercouris: like "ex-pre-se-mon!" or something
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2018-06-29T11:42:41Z jkordani: I go from refreshment to excrement to expression
2018-06-29T11:43:02Z jkordani: expresment: the thing you express.
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2018-06-29T11:51:14Z jackdaniel: loke: amusingly enough, in this lecture the speaker mentions how vovels and slips of a tongue are related to subconcious clash of words you could use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8m7lFQ3njk
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2018-06-29T11:58:44Z dim: expressément is indeed a French word that means “explicitely”
2018-06-29T11:59:00Z jmercouris: I knew it
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2018-06-29T11:59:47Z dim: it doesn't mean extremely thou, like “actuellement” in French means “currently” in English, and other traps like that ;-)
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2018-06-29T12:00:56Z jkordani: a synonym for explicitely would be expressley
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2018-06-29T12:24:00Z beach: jackdaniel: I will definitely watch it at some point.  I have read a few books by Douglas Hofstadter and I like his writing very much.
2018-06-29T12:24:15Z beach: ... but right now I am preoccupied by other stuff.
2018-06-29T12:27:27Z schweers: is tracing in sbcl known to be broken?
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2018-06-29T12:29:02Z JuanDaugherty: tracing (anyplace) is known to be used in situations of brokenness
2018-06-29T12:29:14Z schweers: anyplace?
2018-06-29T12:29:32Z JuanDaugherty: irgendwo
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2018-06-29T12:36:32Z beach: Different question, but related to my previous one: Suppose I want to implement the SICL garbage collector in Common Lisp.  Such a thing must obviously be able to handle arbitrary addresses and arbitrary machine data, let's say in the form of unsigned 64-bit integers.  I can see two ways to do it.
2018-06-29T12:36:41Z beach: Way number 1 is to pretend that memory is a Common Lisp array with element type (unsigned-byte 64).  Way number 2 is to provide two functions for accessing memory like MEMORY and (SETF MEMORY).
2018-06-29T12:36:47Z beach: Way number 1 has the inconvenience that any element of the array that represents an address would have to be shifted right by 8 positions before it can be used as an index.  But then, the compiler would generate code to shift it left again to get an address.  I would then have to make sure that the compiler is able to cancel the two.
2018-06-29T12:36:53Z beach: For way number 2, the two functions must be declared to use arguments and values of type (unsigned-byte 64), they would have to be written in machine code (easy), but they still would need to be inlined, so that the compiler does not have to emit code to tag and untag them or (worse) convert them to bignums and back.
2018-06-29T12:36:54Z beach: Any thoughts about advantages and disadvantages of the two?
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2018-06-29T12:40:25Z heisig: beach: I have a better feeling about way number 2.  The raw memory is semantically a different thing than a Lisp vector, and blurring this distinction might lead to confusion.
2018-06-29T12:40:48Z jmercouris: I like number 2 as it is an abstraction
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2018-06-29T12:41:42Z beach: heisig: I see, yes.  The other thing with 2 is that one could add functions for accessing individual bytes if required.
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2018-06-29T12:42:40Z beach: jmercouris: A tiny tiny one.
2018-06-29T12:44:19Z jmercouris: yeah, but still
2018-06-29T12:45:25Z flip214: beach: for an 8-byte type, only shift the index 3 bits.
2018-06-29T12:45:49Z flip214: and I guess that at some point you might need byte-addressing too - which would go against point 1
2018-06-29T12:45:53Z beach: Oh, sorry, yes.
2018-06-29T12:45:58Z beach: Other than the potential problems I listed, can anyone think of other ways in which I could get into trouble, i.e., what would I have to make sure I can convince the compiler to do?
2018-06-29T12:46:15Z flip214: beach: how many tag bits does SICL reserve?
2018-06-29T12:46:20Z beach: 3
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2018-06-29T12:47:01Z beach: But fixnums are the ones with the last bit 0.
2018-06-29T12:47:13Z flip214: so a 64-bit-word "memory layout" means that even addresses as tagged integers go into a single register... that sounds like #1 would be much easier.
2018-06-29T12:47:40Z beach: Yes, that makes it easier.
2018-06-29T12:47:58Z flip214: and for byte-addressing needs you might have a second "special" array -- which would be used very infrequently, so a few bignum operations won't matter.
2018-06-29T12:48:26Z flip214: (which are very unlikely, as the top half of 64bit memory is reserved for the kernel anyway (typically), so userspace wouldn't have such adresses)
2018-06-29T12:48:42Z beach: Yeah, bignums are very unlikely.
2018-06-29T12:48:59Z flip214: the two functions sound much more better from an abstraction level...  but does that really matter for such a low-level use?
2018-06-29T12:49:00Z beach: Though, SICL will be the basis for LispOS, so there is no "kernel space" then.
2018-06-29T12:49:27Z flip214: does that run in a virtual address space, or in physical address space then?
2018-06-29T12:49:27Z beach: I don't think so.  I am more concerned about the clarity of the algorithms.
2018-06-29T12:49:36Z beach: What does?
2018-06-29T12:49:41Z flip214: the LispOS
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2018-06-29T12:50:00Z beach: Virtual still, but with a fixed mapping.
2018-06-29T12:50:05Z flip214: will that have to deal with addresses of #x8000...000 and higher, or only smaller ones?
2018-06-29T12:50:09Z flip214: ah, okay
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2018-06-29T12:50:23Z beach: It will have to deal with every possible address.
2018-06-29T12:50:47Z flip214: well, (AREF *MAIN-MEMORY* address) vs. (MEMORY address) sounds like a trivial difference
2018-06-29T12:50:51Z beach: So that speaks in favor of 2.
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2018-06-29T12:51:14Z flip214: so I'd say go with the second, and if you find out you want the first make (DEFMACRO MEMORY (a) `(AREF *MAIN-MEMORY ,a))
2018-06-29T12:51:15Z beach: flip214: yes, I kind of think that algorithm clarity will not be affected.
2018-06-29T12:51:54Z beach: So that's 3 votes for option 2 and 0 votes for option 1.
2018-06-29T12:52:51Z flip214: sounds like it
2018-06-29T12:53:10Z flip214: and after all option 2 can be changed into option 1 with a simple macro
2018-06-29T12:53:22Z beach: Yes, good point.
2018-06-29T12:55:44Z beach: Great!  Thanks everyone as usual for all the help.
2018-06-29T12:55:54Z froggey: I use option 2 in mezzano, with accessors for different element types. memref-t, memref-(un)signed-byte-{8,16,32,64}
2018-06-29T12:56:15Z beach: 4-0 then.  Great, thanks froggey.
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2018-06-29T13:01:21Z flip214: beach: > Sometimes a majority simply means that all the fools are on the same side.
2018-06-29T13:01:37Z beach: I never said I would follow the outcome of the vote. :)
2018-06-29T13:01:51Z flip214: and of course
2018-06-29T13:01:52Z flip214: https://www.just-one-liners.com/whenever-you-find-yourself-on-the-side-of-the-majority-it-is-time-to-pause-and-reflect/
2018-06-29T13:02:08Z beach: Heh.
2018-06-29T13:02:42Z beach: flip214: That doesn't happen to me often, though. :)
2018-06-29T13:05:19Z jackdaniel: it might be, that finding yourself on the side of minority is also a good time to pause and reflect
2018-06-29T13:05:28Z jackdaniel: I don't think that confirmation bias is one-sided
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2018-06-29T13:06:54Z jackdaniel: I mean – strong convictions are suspicious whenever found in a majority crowd or in a minority group
2018-06-29T13:09:05Z beach: http://www.prosebeforehos.com/quote-of-the-day/12/28/bertrand-russell-quote-fools-fanatics-wise-men/
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2018-06-29T13:13:42Z beach: flip214: Anyway, the more I think about tagged rack pointers, the more goodness I see.
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2018-06-29T14:09:59Z shka: hello guys
2018-06-29T14:10:40Z shka: is there some library that can simply draw progress bars in the REPL?
2018-06-29T14:12:07Z Xach: shka: ql-progress! but it is not really a library, but part of quicklisp. you could rip it out though.
2018-06-29T14:13:35Z shka: Xach: and then submit to quicklisp
2018-06-29T14:13:39Z shka: thug lif
2018-06-29T14:13:43Z shka: *life
2018-06-29T14:13:45Z shka: ;-)
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2018-06-29T14:17:35Z shka: Xach: this looks quite good!
2018-06-29T14:17:40Z shka: Xach: thanks
2018-06-29T14:20:35Z shka: Xach: i seriously would rip this code out and submit it quicklisp as library :]
2018-06-29T14:23:46Z beach: flip214: I changed the SICL specification so that racks are tagged, using a single commit so that it can be easily undone if necessary.  Let me know if you see any problems with it.
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2018-06-29T14:25:08Z Xach: shka: thanks. i wrote a HTTP client that predated curl and wget, and put up a semi-joking comparison table when the others came around, and one of my plus features was "cool progress bar". but then curl and wget got really cool progress bars, too.
2018-06-29T14:25:23Z Xach: the quicklisp progress bar derives a bit from that experience.
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2018-06-29T16:35:21Z jmercouris: so, I have a lisp system that I can (asdf:make :system) to compile
2018-06-29T16:35:26Z jmercouris: how can I put this in a makefile or something?
2018-06-29T16:35:35Z jmercouris: or how can I issue a single command in the CL to compile?
2018-06-29T16:35:49Z jmercouris: what I'm doing now is typing in "sbcl" and then within the repl typing the command to compile
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2018-06-29T16:36:35Z jmercouris: I was thinking something like sbcl --eval "some expression"
2018-06-29T16:36:39Z jmercouris: but i'm not sure how that works exactly
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2018-06-29T16:37:20Z jmercouris: well, I guess it works the way someone would imagine, I should have tried it before posting here
2018-06-29T16:37:23Z jmercouris: nvm then
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2018-06-29T16:38:57Z rpg: jmercouris: Yeah, none of us have ever done that before! ;-)
2018-06-29T16:39:23Z jmercouris: rpg: :D
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2018-06-29T16:57:29Z dlowe: I have, but he's gone now :p
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2018-06-29T17:06:07Z kenster: Hey, for anyone interested, I am streaming some Common Lisp/C++17 programming: https://youtu.be/-JWVx-W0rmA or https://www.twitch.tv/kingherring
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2018-06-29T17:17:01Z jackdaniel: How does it work? do you use clasp for C++ FFI?
2018-06-29T17:20:21Z kenster: I'm using the CFFI library
2018-06-29T17:20:27Z kenster: and then I have a few macros
2018-06-29T17:20:47Z kenster: I manually write the extern C stuff
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2018-06-29T17:21:03Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks for the explanation
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2018-06-29T17:24:16Z ebrasca: kenster: Why is this stream with music?
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2018-06-29T17:25:48Z pjb: We want to hear the keyboards!
2018-06-29T17:25:53Z kenster: lol
2018-06-29T17:26:05Z kenster: I listen to music while I program, sorry
2018-06-29T17:26:16Z kenster: gets a bit awkward with just me talking if people watch for more then 10 minutes
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2018-06-29T17:37:40Z makomo: kenster: good song
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2018-06-29T17:39:51Z kenster: does anyone know how I can associate the class with the struct value in that hash table
2018-06-29T17:39:53Z kenster: lol
2018-06-29T17:40:06Z kenster: this is like basic stuff I'm stumbling on, jeez
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2018-06-29T17:40:36Z ebrasca: setf ?
2018-06-29T17:40:48Z kenster: (setf (gethash 'upload-session *c-class-structs*) "FileUploadingSession")
2018-06-29T17:41:09Z kenster: I want to pass in the upload-session class symbol and get 'upload-session
2018-06-29T17:42:35Z Xach: kenster: could be a use of symbol plists!
2018-06-29T17:42:40Z pjb: kenster: (identity 'upload-session) #| --> upload-session |#
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2018-06-29T17:43:57Z pjb: don't quote your macro arguments!
2018-06-29T17:44:04Z pjb: kenster: ^
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2018-06-29T17:44:50Z pjb: in the expansion use , to expand the class parameter.
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2018-06-29T17:45:15Z pjb: But the point is probably that "I want to pass in the upload-session class symbol and get 'upload-session" is not what you want.
2018-06-29T17:45:35Z kenster: oh okay
2018-06-29T17:45:50Z pjb: Your c-struct-name expression is ok.
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2018-06-29T17:46:02Z pjb: class is the bound to the class name (symbol).
2018-06-29T17:46:10Z pjb: So you don'tneed a new variable here.
2018-06-29T17:46:28Z pjb: (identity class) == class
2018-06-29T17:47:28Z kenster: yaaay
2018-06-29T17:47:36Z kenster: but you're saying I shouldn't be passing in the class symbol anyways?
2018-06-29T17:47:46Z pjb: Now, you need the *c-class-structs* table set up at macroexpansion time, in the compilation environment.  The simpliest to fill it is to define a macro that expands to an eval-when setf gethash.
2018-06-29T17:48:05Z pjb: I'm saying you already have it passed in the class parameter.
2018-06-29T17:48:41Z pjb: Where is the definition of *c-class-structs*?
2018-06-29T17:49:12Z pjb: ok.
2018-06-29T17:51:45Z pjb: kenster: https://pastebin.com/afCGKsF6
2018-06-29T17:52:51Z pjb: yeah, C compiler don't provide controled environments, which means that you must absolutely not have any crash. (sigsegv, or other).
2018-06-29T17:53:37Z pjb: ah, for C++, just catch all the exceptions in your ffi wrappers.
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2018-06-29T17:53:53Z pjb: You can translate the exceptions to lisp conditions and signal them.
2018-06-29T17:54:26Z pjb: You just have to catch all the C++ exceptions in your wrappers.
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2018-06-29T17:55:40Z pjb: Have you considered clasp?
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2018-06-29T18:01:05Z pjb: A friend of mine is working on something similar: http://peerstorage.org https://www.linkedin.com/company/peerstorage/
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2018-06-29T18:01:38Z ebrasca: kenster: Have you read about mediagoblin ?
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2018-06-29T18:02:45Z pjb: And of course these days there's also peertube getting out.
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2018-06-29T18:04:14Z Demosthenex: anyone seen a lib that helps make TUI apps for cl? yes, ncurses exists, but the forms portion never seems to be included in the libs. widgets/forms aren't the same as screenhandling.
2018-06-29T18:04:24Z pjb: kenster: On unix, checking permissions is done by open.
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2018-06-29T18:04:28Z ebrasca: kenster: Yea I like decentralization.
2018-06-29T18:04:30Z pjb: Don't check before opening!
2018-06-29T18:04:36Z Demosthenex: i'm working on a trading database, and need a fast and simple frontend.
2018-06-29T18:05:04Z pjb: bbl
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2018-06-29T18:06:45Z ebrasca: kenster: I like to ask , Why C++ ?
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2018-06-29T18:07:21Z kenster: maybe this Demosthenex http://verisimilitudes.net/2018-04-04
2018-06-29T18:07:33Z kenster: it's strictly licensed tho
2018-06-29T18:07:38Z kenster: I know the creator of the library
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2018-06-29T18:08:01Z kenster: ebrasca: it's fast
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2018-06-29T18:08:35Z kenster: also it's what I "know" out of all of the manual memory management languages
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2018-06-29T18:10:40Z ebrasca: haaaaaaaa I need to continue writing my ext2/3/4 suport for Mezzano...
2018-06-29T18:10:46Z Demosthenex: kenster: that's basically ncurses simple functions (ie: screen control). i'd really like to find Turbovision :P
2018-06-29T18:10:52Z kenster: oh shit you wrote Mezzano ebrasca?
2018-06-29T18:10:59Z ebrasca: kenster: No
2018-06-29T18:11:05Z kenster: oh, you're contributing
2018-06-29T18:11:10Z kenster: niiice
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2018-06-29T18:12:38Z ebrasca: kenster: I have make suport for fat32 ( Need optimization ). Now starting ext2/3/4 suport.
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2018-06-29T18:17:19Z ebrasca: (close stream)
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2018-06-29T18:21:09Z kenster: lol yeah as soon as I switch to C++... haha
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2018-06-29T18:28:28Z paule32: hello
2018-06-29T18:28:41Z paule32: how can i compile clisp with xlib support?
2018-06-29T18:33:35Z pjb: reading the doc.  Using those commands: https://pastebin.com/3iMPdbp9
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2018-06-29T19:51:26Z fortitude: do any lisps provide a way to have global variable that /aren't/ dumped as part of an image?
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2018-06-29T19:54:11Z Xach: fortitude: you can use save-hooks to clean up what you like in sbcl
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2018-06-29T20:36:51Z charh: Hello! lispers, I have a beginner question. I am a systems administrator (Unix) and a beginner and autodidact.
2018-06-29T20:37:01Z charh: I write code in shell mainly. All my developments are related to operating systems. it's okay. but ... I want to be a true developer ... and I love Common Lisp as a language.
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2018-06-29T20:37:14Z charh: I am reading practical common lisp, but finally I do not "click" with the development outside of an operating system
2018-06-29T20:37:28Z charh: My friends, my boss and any other people tell me "Do not learn lisp... is old and deprecated..., learn Java, Python, C, C ++, Rust ..." but I want Common Lisp, for me lisp is magic... I have a small code (in my git) and i love.
2018-06-29T20:37:39Z charh: Any suggestion for my way? follow? or I need learn first other language?
2018-06-29T20:37:50Z charh: I want follow, but i don't know if a good decision
2018-06-29T20:38:02Z charh: yes, the question is more a suggestion from your experience, but i don't know any friend for talk o read about that.
2018-06-29T20:38:11Z charh: please and thanks lispers :)
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2018-06-29T20:39:01Z trittweiler: I think you need to familarize yourself with a Common Lisp development environment. For example Emacs, and Slime (the Common Lisp editing mode)
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2018-06-29T20:40:21Z trittweiler: The application design of Emacs can be quite illuminating by itself.  (There definitely are other development environments, though, in case Emacs is just not your cup of tea)
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2018-06-29T20:41:18Z charh: thanks trittweiler :), i have installed and configured (emacs + slime), I go to learnd (and read) more about that
2018-06-29T20:41:27Z Demosthenex: charh: i'm a systems guy too. CL is great for all kinds of backend tasks. python and java etc are for frontend stuff
2018-06-29T20:42:24Z charh: s/learnd/learn
2018-06-29T20:42:35Z Demosthenex: emacs is life.
2018-06-29T20:42:41Z charh: oh, fine Demosthenex :) thanks
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2018-06-29T20:42:50Z Demosthenex: charh: did you ever learn latin?
2018-06-29T20:43:19Z charh: a little Demosthenex
2018-06-29T20:43:34Z Demosthenex: there's an analogy between learning lisp and latin. learning latin made you understand more about many different languages, it gave you depth, insight. lisp is the same
2018-06-29T20:43:38Z trittweiler: SICP (Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs) is a very good book on learning the foundations of programming. It uses Scheme, a cousin of Common Lisp.
2018-06-29T20:44:01Z Demosthenex: with the exception where latin died off in usage, lisp is still used. all other languages are graduallying adding features lisp had many decades ago
2018-06-29T20:44:26Z trittweiler: there are also video lectures available from the 80s, which I found very enjoyable.
2018-06-29T20:44:33Z Demosthenex: common lisp and modern schemes are both quite good
2018-06-29T20:44:42Z Demosthenex: trittweiler: omg! the green chaulkboards!
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2018-06-29T20:45:14Z charh: oh fine Demosthenex! thanks! and you too trittweiler
2018-06-29T20:46:00Z Demosthenex: i'm chafing over the gui and web frontends to everything. i'm tinkering with some personal apps that are often simple CRUD interfaces to a sql database. i don't want a gui, i want a curses based forms frontend
2018-06-29T20:46:09Z Demosthenex: i despair that all the libs are no longer available
2018-06-29T20:48:49Z charh: oh ok, Demosthenex, fine! and thanks again :), any library for read and alternate between code and books?
2018-06-29T20:49:17Z trittweiler: If it's a good use of your time to learn Common Lisp is arguable. People in this channel would of course say yes. :)  Python and Go would probably be more easily marketable skills (I think those are quite common in the devops world.) If your aim is to learn programming as a craft, Lisp will be a very good foundation like Demosthenex said
2018-06-29T20:50:32Z Demosthenex: i wish i learned lisp a decade earlier.
2018-06-29T20:51:02Z Demosthenex: ESR and other great programmers talk about a moment of enlightenment, where it just goes *SNAP* in your head and you gain insight. i was skeptical, but it's true
2018-06-29T20:51:16Z charh: Perfect trittweiler, thanks for your answer, i want to learn programming as a craft.
2018-06-29T20:51:25Z Demosthenex: absolutely changes your perspective when dealing with programming problems and other languages.
2018-06-29T20:52:00Z Demosthenex: i did a self study through "Practical Common Lisp" several years ago, it was time well spent.
2018-06-29T20:52:32Z charh: thank you very much, then I will follow this path
2018-06-29T20:53:55Z charh: i will read more about your suggestions, thanks Demosthenex and trittweiler
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2018-06-29T21:00:02Z Demosthenex: charh: even if  you don't learn lisp
2018-06-29T21:00:19Z Demosthenex: charh: use emacs. it'll open your eyes. plus it runs on lisp, so you can tinker anytime without needing a dev environment for little hings
2018-06-29T21:00:23Z Demosthenex: s/hings/things/
2018-06-29T21:00:40Z Demosthenex: and as a system's guy, org-mode will change your life
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2018-06-29T21:03:58Z charh: thanks Demosthenex :), I will search very information about emacs, your suggetions is goooood/great for me
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2018-06-29T21:05:58Z Demosthenex: i have found Structured Terminal Forms Library (STFL), s-lang, ncurses forms, and others... but few bindings for cl.
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2018-06-29T21:26:04Z whartung: emacs is all fine and good, but it doesn’t need to be the first step. You certainly don’t need Slime or anything fancy out of the box either. What you need, at a minumum is an editor that helps you with parentheses matching. Emacs will do that, but so will vi. emacs is nice because it’s got “lisp aware” indenting, which helps.
2018-06-29T21:26:23Z whartung: You ceratinly don’t need to “understand” emacs to learn CL
2018-06-29T21:26:45Z whartung: what kidn of problems do you want to solve charh ?
2018-06-29T21:27:18Z whartung: learning in a vacuum is all well and good, but it’s better if you’re trying to solve some problem. Computers without problems to solve are also known as “room heaters”
2018-06-29T21:28:29Z whartung: unless you’re a vintage computer collector, then they become sclupture.
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2018-06-29T21:29:38Z pjb: Yes, emacs is not necessarily the first step. But once you start using it, you'll always regret not having used it sooner.
2018-06-29T21:30:21Z pjb: I started using emacs in 1992, and I would have hit myself for not having started using it much earlier.
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2018-06-29T21:32:58Z charh: whartung: my first step is a mix unix/CL and resolve problems outside shell scripting, I will rewrite my shell scripts in CL or the functionality
2018-06-29T21:34:56Z whartung: ok. That’s good. You might consider scsh — it’s a “Scheme Shell”, so, it’s a Scheme, not a Common Lisp, but it is designed to be a shell and has artifacts in place to handle things like sub processes and pipes and such.
2018-06-29T21:35:37Z whartung: that’s always been the problem I could never surmount in my “Lisp as shell” dabbling — finding a suitable usable pipe replacement, as it’s so engrained in the shell experience.
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2018-06-29T21:37:10Z whartung: I edit with emacs, but that’s it. I leverage it’s autoformatting the most. I run Lisp in a separate window, and just continually reload my work. (defun l () (load “file.lisp”), and then just type (l) over and over (typiecally with REPL history ala readline)
2018-06-29T21:37:37Z whartung: it suits me with my projects.
2018-06-29T21:38:15Z whartung: I only say this as it’s one thing to want to learn from forms and the language, another to have to tool up an entire environemtn just to learn those forms and language — it’s not the same
2018-06-29T21:38:49Z charh: thanks whartung i was don't sure about scsh, but i will prove it! and read mooooore about emacs and CL :D
2018-06-29T21:39:02Z whartung: okies
2018-06-29T21:39:08Z charh: :)
2018-06-29T21:39:40Z charh: thanks!
2018-06-29T21:39:45Z whartung: yw
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2018-06-29T21:53:29Z _death: there's also a recent project, shcl
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2018-06-29T21:58:26Z whartung: at a glance, it looks kind of a mess.
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2018-06-29T22:30:27Z kenster: streaming part 2 https://youtu.be/yKDBz3L_0bE
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2018-06-29T22:32:25Z ebrasca: kenster: yea lisp againg
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2018-06-29T23:04:37Z ebrasca: kenster: Can your server work with tor?
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2018-06-29T23:12:41Z ebrasca: kenster: Are you ok?
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2018-06-29T23:32:16Z ebrasca: kenster: what about privacy?
2018-06-29T23:32:26Z kenster: ebrasca: what do you mean am I okay? lol
2018-06-29T23:32:27Z kenster: haha
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2018-06-29T23:38:30Z ebrasca: kenster: Do you mean someting like in serial experiments lain ?
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2018-06-29T23:45:20Z ebrasca: kenster: In serial experiments lain there where this virtual space with representations.
2018-06-29T23:45:40Z ebrasca: kenster: Sori with my english.
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2018-06-29T23:56:17Z ebrasca: kenster: mmm do you think it can handle streaming?
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2018-06-30T00:06:16Z ebrasca: kenster: But if you decentralize the live streaming ? ( Using more than 1 server )
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2018-06-30T00:09:54Z ebrasca: kenster: what time and time zone?
2018-06-30T00:14:05Z kenster: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/8uxyg7/comfy_lisp_programming_project_wikify_episode_2/
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2018-06-30T00:20:18Z Misha_B: is there a method to determine if two lists are equal with no regard to order
2018-06-30T00:20:56Z Bike: (not (set-exclusive-or ...)) i think
2018-06-30T00:21:03Z Bike: er (null ...)
2018-06-30T00:22:06Z Misha_B: thanks
2018-06-30T00:23:12Z zachk: Misha_B, you could try sorting both lists and seeing if they are equal, if they are sortable
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2018-06-30T00:40:29Z ebrasca: kenster: Have you defined setf for bucket?
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2018-06-30T01:00:28Z kenster: ebrasca: I didn't see what you said but yeah I had to add that field to upload-session haha
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2018-06-30T01:18:24Z ebzzry: Does any know why I get `Condition QL-HTTP::END-OF-DATA was signalled.` in Quicklisp?
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2018-06-30T01:21:56Z ebrasca: kenster: I need to sleep. Bye and have fun.
2018-06-30T01:22:06Z kenster: thanks, good night
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2018-06-30T01:49:00Z Xach: ebzzry: it can happen if a request is fubar
2018-06-30T01:49:06Z Xach: ebzzry: does it happen a lot for you?
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2018-06-30T01:55:57Z Beep-Lord: Anyone have a resource on wrapping a demacro form with nested back quotes?
2018-06-30T01:56:05Z Beep-Lord: s/demacro/defmacro
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2018-06-30T02:03:04Z Xach: my policy thus far has been to avoid it
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2018-06-30T02:12:11Z ebzzry: Xach: it happens consistently on a particular task that I’m doing.
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2018-06-30T02:18:08Z Xach: ebzzry: which one?
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2018-06-30T02:19:24Z ebzzry: Xach: let me send you the Dockerfile
2018-06-30T02:19:46Z ebzzry: https://gist.github.com/ebzzry/617e28950b932aa98dece282767bd2bc
2018-06-30T02:20:00Z ebzzry: It stops on the last `make` step.
2018-06-30T02:24:57Z Xach: ebzzry: not for me.
2018-06-30T02:25:20Z ebzzry: Xach: that’s what I would expect, too.
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2018-06-30T02:25:52Z Xach: why?
2018-06-30T02:26:38Z ebzzry: Xach: it should work. :(
2018-06-30T02:26:43Z ebzzry: Xach: let me check again.
2018-06-30T02:26:52Z Xach: ebzzry: do you have a proxy or anything fun like that?
2018-06-30T02:27:02Z Xach: transparent something or other?
2018-06-30T02:28:13Z ebzzry: Xach: my ISP may be doing something
2018-06-30T02:28:44Z Xach: boo to them
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2018-06-30T04:40:35Z ebzzry: Xach: let me try that, again.
2018-06-30T04:41:19Z ebzzry: Xach: Wait, so you mean to say the Docker image build fine?
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2018-06-30T05:38:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2018-06-30T05:45:28Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
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2018-06-30T07:36:41Z joh11: Hi guys ! I just had a small question
2018-06-30T07:37:32Z pjb: Apparently, not small enough for this margin.
2018-06-30T07:38:30Z joh11: if I called a function foo from the repl that calls another function bar, is there a way, when I recompile bar that foo automatically use the new version ?
2018-06-30T07:38:51Z joh11: ok I lied ti wasn't that small xD
2018-06-30T07:38:59Z pjb: This is not specified by the standard, but of course, one can design an algorithm to include in an implementation to do that.
2018-06-30T07:39:21Z pjb: Also, have a look at ibcl, you could implement it in an implementation independent way, as an add-on library.
2018-06-30T07:39:34Z pjb: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/index.html
2018-06-30T07:39:43Z joh11: ok thanks !
2018-06-30T07:39:54Z pjb: joh11: err, let me correct that.
2018-06-30T07:40:18Z MichaelRaskin: Also, check if the desired behaviour is already what your implementation does
2018-06-30T07:40:28Z pjb: For functions defined in the REPL, this is already the case, it's automatic.  Also, functions defined in different compilation units when compiled (usually different files).
2018-06-30T07:40:55Z joh11: Im just messing with sdl2 and wanted to leave my window opened while coding other stuff, this works with variables but not with functions apparently
2018-06-30T07:40:57Z MichaelRaskin: Also often true if you load files by LOAD
2018-06-30T07:41:29Z pjb: joh11: said otherwise, the called functions are "hardwired" in the caller only when the called function is declared INLINE and not NOTINLINE, or when they're in the same compilation unit.
2018-06-30T07:42:02Z pjb: joh11: in the other cases, the calls go (semantically) thru the symbol-function, so if you redefine a function, it's taken into account next.
2018-06-30T07:42:32Z joh11: ok so if I mark foo as NOTINLINE, or place it in another file than bar it should work ?
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2018-06-30T07:42:45Z pjb: Yes.
2018-06-30T07:43:21Z pjb: If your program design depends on changing the function definition at run-time, do declare it NOTINLINE.
2018-06-30T07:44:15Z joh11: ok
2018-06-30T07:44:24Z joh11: man lisp is just so cool
2018-06-30T07:44:57Z pjb: so about FUNCTION, FDEFINITION, SYMBOL-FUNCTION, the thing is that they return the function object.  If you store it somewhere, and redefine the function, then those old function objects are still used.
2018-06-30T07:45:22Z pjb: This is one important difference between (apply (function foo) args) and (apply (quote foo) args).
2018-06-30T07:46:29Z pjb: In the first case, the function object is passed, in the second case, the symbol FOO is passed.  In the later case the APPLY function will call SYMBOL-FUNCTION itself, so if the definition of FOO has changed, APPLY will use the last fbinding, ie. the redefinition.
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2018-06-30T07:47:01Z pjb: Assume the function or object are not passed directly, but stored somewhere before the call.
2018-06-30T07:47:01Z joh11: wow didn't thought about it
2018-06-30T07:47:28Z joh11: so to be sure I should use ' instead of #' in my apply calls ?
2018-06-30T07:48:20Z pjb: For example, if you play with reader macros: (set-macro-character #\^ 'reader-macro-for-^) is better while developping it and testing it, because just redefining the function is enough for the reader macro to take it into account. With (set-macro-character #\^ #'reader-macro-for-^) you will have to re-evaluate this form each time you modify the function.
2018-06-30T07:48:38Z pjb: joh11: you should use ' or #' depending on your meaning!
2018-06-30T07:49:50Z pjb: Ie. if you write a HOF (high order function, a function that takes functions as arguments), instead of restricting it to functions (checktype fun function), you should allow function designators (deftype function-designator () `(or function symbol)) (checktype fun function-designator)
2018-06-30T07:50:45Z joh11: ok thanks !
2018-06-30T07:50:47Z pjb: So the user of your function can choose.
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2018-06-30T07:56:48Z joh11: ok so I moved bar to another file but now I have another problem : my (format t "test") are not displayed
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2018-06-30T07:57:06Z joh11: but I am sure it is called
2018-06-30T07:57:18Z joh11: and I used (force-output) after
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2018-06-30T08:28:12Z pjb: joh11: err, moving to a different file is not necessarily the best option. It makes it implicit. And usually files are used to organize things by module (or by package), rather than on such technicality.  It would be better to just (declaim (notinline bar)).
2018-06-30T08:28:55Z pjb: format t outputs to *standard-output* which may be bound to different streams at different times, and streams can be redirected to various places.
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2018-06-30T08:31:17Z joh11: pbj: yeah but in my case it makes more sense because it is a collision handling function so it is ok to place it elsewhere
2018-06-30T08:31:22Z pjb: joh11: you may also use STEP to see what functions are called, step by step.  In ccl, cl:step is not implemented, so you may use cl-stepper instead.  https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/cl-stepper$20lisp$20informatimago/comp.lang.lisp/nj3jFxcJYM0/QbzGkAbyAtMJ  (cd ~/quicklisp/local-projects ; git clone http://github.com/informatimago/lisp informatimago) before quickload.
2018-06-30T08:31:42Z joh11: thanks, anyway im using sbcl
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2018-06-30T08:33:08Z pjb: good. still consider cl-stepper, it has nice features. (eg. (step (foo) :trace) will prints a trace of all steps. (big output).  Happily (or not), cl-stepper works by instrumenting the code, so it only steps the code that has been compiled with cl-stepper instead of cl.
2018-06-30T08:33:20Z pjb: )
2018-06-30T08:33:55Z joh11: the dreaded unclosed parenthesis xD
2018-06-30T08:34:18Z pjb: :-)
2018-06-30T08:34:48Z jackdaniel: you may be a meanie and cause a serious distress to most channel participants by ending your sentence with opening parenthesis (
2018-06-30T08:34:49Z joh11: so I will have to store a variable to the *standard-output* so that it is not shadowed by the sdl stuff ?
2018-06-30T08:35:07Z joh11: or there is a cleaner way to do it
2018-06-30T08:35:28Z jackdaniel: it may be not enough, *standard-output* may be a synonym stream!
2018-06-30T08:35:30Z pjb: You may use *trace-output*
2018-06-30T08:35:55Z pjb: (format *trace-output* "trace level output~%")
2018-06-30T08:36:50Z pjb: also, say, debugging "traces".  There's a *debug-io* but it's for interactive debugging, it may be connected to GUI instead of logs…
2018-06-30T08:37:51Z pjb: or of course you can (defvar *my-trace-output* *standard-output*) but this would duplicate *trace-output* for no good reason apparently.
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2018-06-30T08:45:23Z makomo: if i have a class and i have functions (instead of methods, because i don't need the genericity) that perform operations on objects of this class
2018-06-30T08:45:27Z makomo: how should i name the functions?
2018-06-30T08:46:22Z joh11: pbj: ok it works now with a (defvar *my-stream* *trace-output*) but only when I press enter on the repl so not that great. Anyway it was only for debug purposes, I'll use step instead
2018-06-30T08:56:52Z pjb: makomo: name the function after the result produced.
2018-06-30T08:57:02Z pjb: Eg. SIN is named because it returns the SINUS of the argument.
2018-06-30T08:57:26Z pjb: STRING-UPCASE is named like that, because it returns an upcased string from the string designator argument.
2018-06-30T08:57:29Z pjb: etc.
2018-06-30T08:57:58Z pjb: For procedures (operators that don't return anything specific, but that have specific side effects), name them after the main side effect.
2018-06-30T08:58:28Z pjb: Eg. PRINT is called PRINT because it prints stuff.  FORMAT is called FORMAT because it formats stuff.  READ is called READ because it reads stuff.
2018-06-30T08:58:31Z makomo: pjb: it's not always that easy :/. this function returns the clock's state (computed as a function of the clock's current cycle)
2018-06-30T08:58:37Z makomo: just naming it STATE would be dumb
2018-06-30T08:58:42Z pjb: makomo: clock-state
2018-06-30T08:58:48Z makomo: naming it clock-state is better
2018-06-30T08:59:05Z makomo: yes. what i was aiming for is, whether or not i should use CLOCK- as a prefix all the time for such functions
2018-06-30T08:59:28Z makomo: but i'm also not sure if i should make them be methods instead
2018-06-30T08:59:40Z pjb: joh11: for debugging purposes you can go ahead and use directly *trace-output*.  What do you mean only on the REPL? Do you run it otherwise?
2018-06-30T08:59:53Z pjb: makomo: perhaps not systematically.
2018-06-30T09:00:16Z pjb: For example, if you have a function that returns the hour from your clock, just call it HOUR.  No need for a CLOCK-HOUR with the prefix.
2018-06-30T09:00:40Z makomo: yeah, and if there's also SECONDS for example
2018-06-30T09:00:49Z makomo: SECONDS is too vague imo
2018-06-30T09:01:09Z makomo: it really depends on the word
2018-06-30T09:01:29Z pjb: makomo: but also, it's a question of style and of API.  If you define functions for an API (if they're exported from your package) you should think ahead to keey it stable on long term. So if now it's a mere function, it could become a generic function later.
2018-06-30T09:01:31Z makomo: and if later on you end up with a word that's too vague, you'll have to rename everything else to be consistent
2018-06-30T09:02:05Z pjb: Using the prefix is often seen. It's the default for defstruct accessors.
2018-06-30T09:02:12Z makomo: pjb: yup true. although, for generic functions there's usually no problem, since you have specialization going on
2018-06-30T09:02:41Z pjb: You can also use unicode: ⌛hour ⌛minute ⌛seconds ;-)
2018-06-30T09:02:47Z makomo: hah :D
2018-06-30T09:02:51Z pjb: (nope, don't do that in a public library).
2018-06-30T09:03:33Z pjb: (defconstant ½ 1/2)  (* ½ 3) #| --> 3/2 |#
2018-06-30T09:03:44Z makomo: damn, sometimes i miss static typing and overloading
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2018-06-30T09:04:04Z pjb: makomo: generic functions can be overloaded with various methods.
2018-06-30T09:04:40Z joh11: pjb: nevermind I found the problem. I forgot to specify the stream in (force-output) it was *standard-output* that was flushed, and I had to press enter (or any expr) in the REPL to show it
2018-06-30T09:04:55Z makomo: pjb: i guess, but that requires using generic functions instead of normal functions
2018-06-30T09:05:06Z makomo: which isn't a downside by itself, but eh, still
2018-06-30T09:06:13Z pjb: joh11: ok.
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2018-06-30T09:46:28Z ebzzry: Xach: thanks for verifying. it builds well now. it was my connection, indeed.
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2018-06-30T11:57:13Z aeth: A prefix is a good way to handle things (I see it sometimes even for defclass accessors)
2018-06-30T11:57:21Z aeth: You can always hide the prefix with a macro
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2018-06-30T12:04:31Z Xach: ebrasca: phew
2018-06-30T12:06:33Z Xach: sorry
2018-06-30T12:06:37Z Xach: meant for ebzzry
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2018-06-30T13:50:39Z shka_: heh, i just opened request to add to the quicklisp code that was stolen from the quicklisp client
2018-06-30T13:50:46Z shka_: i feel so dirty :P
2018-06-30T13:52:50Z Xach: it's all good
2018-06-30T13:55:17Z Xach: shka_: would you consider adding some example usage to the README?
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2018-06-30T13:55:29Z shka_: I am doing it right now
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2018-06-30T14:06:26Z shka_: Xach: done
2018-06-30T14:14:16Z Xach:   yay
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2018-06-30T14:24:40Z beach: I think I have a FAIRLY complete description of my planned nursery garbage collector.  More examples and more figures will be added, but I think it is complete enough to be presented to a wider audience: http://metamodular.com/garbage-collection.pdf
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2018-06-30T14:24:56Z beach: It is a bit long, but there are lots of figures, so it is not as bad as it looks.
2018-06-30T14:25:04Z beach: Remarks are welcome, as usual.
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2018-06-30T14:25:38Z beach: Next, I'll be doing more work on the description of the synchronization between nursery collectors and the global collector.
2018-06-30T14:25:39Z shka_: cool
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2018-06-30T16:30:30Z kenster: Hey everybody, I'm doing a Comfy Lisp Programming stream in 30 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbfHpLUPL7E
2018-06-30T16:31:03Z kenster: alternatively, I'm also on twitch. Here's the event: https://www.twitch.tv/events/Yh7I84GuTSKRNZ6oKg1g3Q
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