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2017-04-01T00:13:22Z rrrrm: hi
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2017-04-01T00:14:05Z antonv: fe[nl]ix: are you going to release the changes accummulated in iolib master to Quicklisp?
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2017-04-01T00:21:05Z rrrrm: which implemantation is most popular?
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2017-04-01T00:26:26Z antonv: rrrrm: SBCL I guess. I personally use CCL mostly
2017-04-01T00:27:24Z rrrrm: no one use still clisp?
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2017-04-01T00:44:01Z pjb: everybody use clisp for their scripts!
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2017-04-01T00:49:31Z akkad: clisp is too fast for me. it throws the curve for the rest on cl-bench
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2017-04-01T00:59:17Z drmeister: Does anyone use pzmq?   Yesterday clasp used ASDF3.1 and was able to quickload pzmq.   Today clasp uses ASDF3.2 and it fails with...    fatal error: zmq.h: No such file or directory
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2017-04-01T01:15:51Z theseb: Can macros be understood as just expressions with a "special" type of evaluation?...And the ONLY thing special is that you don't evaluate the function parameters before invoking the associated function?...one more thing...is there a SCOPE with macro expression evaluations like there is for "normal" expressions?
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2017-04-01T01:21:06Z |3b|: return value being evaluated is also different
2017-04-01T01:21:09Z BusFactor1: yes, macros are functions that have abnormal evaluation rules
2017-04-01T01:22:27Z |3b|: also that they might be evaluated multiple times for a single 'evaluation' (or even without an evaluation/compilation)
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2017-04-01T01:23:45Z |3b|: body of a macro function works same as a normal function as far as scope is concerned
2017-04-01T01:24:23Z |3b|: (and generally it actually is a normal function)
2017-04-01T01:26:07Z |3b| isn't sure if anything requires it to be a 'normal function' for some definitions of that, but it at least has to act like one
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2017-04-01T02:03:29Z drmeister: Does a quicklisp system like pzmq that uses CFFI install the C library zmq or do I need to install that separately?
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2017-04-01T02:08:48Z jasom: drmeister: you need to install it separately; the exception is shinmera's qt bindings
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2017-04-01T03:22:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-01T03:22:43Z akkad: clisp never finds stuff in ql/local-projects
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2017-04-01T03:47:57Z krwq: is there any library for database you could recommend? does cl-dbi sound reasonable?
2017-04-01T03:48:38Z fortitude: krwq: I've heard people say that postmodern is nice (if you're using Postgres)
2017-04-01T03:49:21Z fortitude: krwq: cl-dbi is a nice idea, but it's only got drivers for mysql, postgres, and sqlite
2017-04-01T03:49:44Z fortitude: krwq: there are some design issues I don't fully like about it, but it's certainly usable
2017-04-01T03:49:57Z krwq: is postgress the best open source option? i haven't used anything else than mysql yet, i usually dont work with databases
2017-04-01T03:49:59Z fortitude: krwq: I use plain-odbc for most of my projects, but my needs are limited
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2017-04-01T03:50:34Z fortitude: krwq: "best" depends on your needs (and preferences)
2017-04-01T03:50:45Z drmeister: jasom: Thanks
2017-04-01T03:51:12Z fortitude: krwq: I once heard somebody say that mysql is a good fit as an application backend (highly configurable), and postgres is better suited as the single source of truth for multiple applications
2017-04-01T03:51:31Z krwq: fortitude: i do not have any preferences currently but i'd like to achieve is to create some kind of storage which would transfer nicely between machines
2017-04-01T03:52:06Z fortitude: krwq: sqlite might be better then, since you can just move the database wholesale (and there are lisp libs for it)
2017-04-01T03:52:27Z krwq: is it easy to switch later?
2017-04-01T03:52:42Z krwq: id assume just extract all and insert into other db
2017-04-01T03:52:52Z krwq: but i dont have much experience
2017-04-01T03:53:28Z krwq: fortitude: why do you use plain-odbc?
2017-04-01T03:53:35Z krwq: and you recommend sqllite
2017-04-01T03:53:40Z krwq: and postgres
2017-04-01T03:53:52Z krwq: that's what i'm wondering
2017-04-01T03:54:32Z fortitude: krwq: switching will probably involve work down the road
2017-04-01T03:55:09Z fortitude: krwq: I use plain-odbc mostly because it works for my case, and the db I have to deal with most has no other client I can use
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2017-04-01T03:55:29Z krwq: fortitude: do you usually buy db on a remote server or create your own locallt
2017-04-01T03:56:21Z fortitude: krwq: I don't actually work with them that much, but I probably wouldn't get a server unless I had a specific reason for it
2017-04-01T03:57:00Z fortitude: even my tiny little VM at work can run a 30Gb Postgres db plus emacs, sbcl, Eclipse, and assorted other things without too much issue
2017-04-01T03:57:16Z krwq: will it work on windows too?
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2017-04-01T03:58:21Z fortitude: krwq: I believe all three dbs do, yes
2017-04-01T03:58:26Z fortitude: krwq: most lisps do as well :)
2017-04-01T03:59:06Z krwq: fortitude: thanks fortitude, i'll start with postmodern+postgres then
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2017-04-01T04:09:59Z fortitude: how do people here organize their lisp code in a large-ish project? (either externally, i.e. files, or internally)
2017-04-01T04:10:38Z fortitude: I seem to have a hard time finding things in my projects if I don't remember the names, or else I wind up needing three functions with the same name
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2017-04-01T04:14:12Z sukaeto: krwq: I've used Postgres+cl-dbi in production.  cl-dbi uses postmodern under the covers for Postgres.
2017-04-01T04:14:26Z sukaeto: datafly + sxql are pretty handy
2017-04-01T04:14:49Z fortitude: I'll second the recommendation for sxql, I use that a lot
2017-04-01T04:14:58Z sukaeto: (though sxql doesn't implement the more advanced features of Postgres like CTEs and "on conflict update")
2017-04-01T04:15:00Z fortitude: it's also extensible, which is a huge win for me
2017-04-01T04:15:04Z beach: fortitude: I organize my projects into several "modules", where a module has an ASDF system definition and a package.  That way, I try to get clean protocols for each module.
2017-04-01T04:15:19Z sukaeto: but yeah, like fortitude said, you can add syntax to it relatively easily
2017-04-01T04:15:51Z fortitude: beach: at what sort of granularity do you try to make the split?
2017-04-01T04:19:30Z fortitude: sukaeto: have you worked with crane at all? seems pretty similar to datafly
2017-04-01T04:21:44Z beach: fortitude: I try to make well defined "modules" with a purpose that I can describe.
2017-04-01T04:21:57Z beach: fortitude: It is hard to be more specific than that.
2017-04-01T04:27:27Z fortitude: beach: understandable. taking a slightly different tack, do you tend to lay out the modules first, or code first and reorganize as you go?
2017-04-01T04:28:29Z beach: fortitude: Some of each.
2017-04-01T04:29:06Z beach: fortitude: More and more, I tend to pause and extract one or more modules to separate repositories, with separate documentation and separate test suites.
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2017-04-01T04:31:44Z beach: fortitude: That strategy has several advantages.  It forces me to think about protocols.  It forces me to write documentation and tests.  And if the bigger project fails (which is very possible for lack of time, or overly ambitious goals) then the independent modules are still usable.
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2017-04-01T04:33:47Z fortitude: beach: interesting. I've occasionally done something similar by using qlot, but since you're locking in a specific revision of the repository, it's pretty easy to cheat on the protocol front
2017-04-01T04:35:12Z fortitude: maybe I just need to invest more effort going from "writing down what I know" to "making a independetly usable unit"
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2017-04-01T04:36:31Z beach: fortitude: I am not saying everybody should do that.  But for me, it is a good strategy.
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2017-04-01T04:38:05Z beach: fortitude: Too many times in the past, I have worked on projects that were then abandoned (sometimes by me) and there is nothing to show for it.  This strategy makes the parts independently usable even when a project fails.
2017-04-01T04:39:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyone have any thoughts about why I'm having this issue with cl-async: http://paste.lisp.org/+7CPM
2017-04-01T04:40:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Using cl+ssl directly, I get my IP address back from api.ipify.org but trying to use cl-async doesn't produce any result.
2017-04-01T04:40:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm about to file a bug on cl-async, just trying to see if I'm missing anything obvious
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2017-04-01T04:58:10Z krwq: sukaeto: fortitude: thanks - SxQL and datafly sound promising - since cl-dbi is using postmodern behind and will work with datafly i believe it is a good combination
2017-04-01T05:04:14Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know for sure, but my guess is the data's being written but not flushed
2017-04-01T05:06:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: fortitude: I've tried a couple variations on that. The weird thing is that cl-aysync works for other sites, just not for api.ipify.org
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2017-04-01T05:10:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I wonder if it has something to do with SNI
2017-04-01T05:11:21Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: that could be; it definitely works with a local openssl s_server setup, so it's not a flushing issue
2017-04-01T05:13:34Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: it exhibits the same problem on one of my sites that requires SNI to work, so that's a likely culprit
2017-04-01T05:14:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool, I'll add that to my bug report
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2017-04-01T05:20:15Z krwq: when you are testing macros which uses gensym is there some easy way to compare macroexpansion with an expected sexp?
2017-04-01T05:20:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs *gensym-counter*
2017-04-01T05:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_gensym.htm
2017-04-01T05:21:26Z fortitude: krwq: if we're talking about unit tests, I would also strongly consider not testing the expansion itself
2017-04-01T05:21:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: krwq: I think if you reset this to a known value before macroexpansion and when generating the test data, the gensyms should match
2017-04-01T05:21:57Z fortitude: that will break every time you change it; ideally you just want to test whatever the macro promises to consumers
2017-04-01T05:21:58Z krwq: fortitude: why not test macroexpansion? annoying to maintain?
2017-04-01T05:22:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: although, you'll have to compare symbol names, not equality...
2017-04-01T05:23:13Z fortitude: krwq: my view on unit tests (and I could be an oddball here) is that you only want to test whatever the public contract of the unit is
2017-04-01T05:23:39Z fortitude: krwq: people frequently try to test the internals of a unit, which tends to be fragile
2017-04-01T05:24:14Z krwq: fair enough, thanks fiddlerwoaroof and fortitude, i'll just test public namespace
2017-04-01T05:24:21Z krwq: public surface*
2017-04-01T05:25:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think it's probably better to make sure the expansion evaluates properly rather than expands to what you want.  Although, you need to think about things like double-evaluation and accidental name capture
2017-04-01T05:25:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/name/symbol/
2017-04-01T05:25:37Z krwq: i'm wondering is there any other class (not in lispy sense) of symbol except for #:symbol-name which package is nil? (i.e. (symbol-package '#:foo) => nil)
2017-04-01T05:26:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: #:foo is an uninterned symbol: any interned symbol will be interned in a package
2017-04-01T05:26:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: And so symbol-package will yield non-nil
2017-04-01T05:27:15Z krwq: makes sense, thanks again, no more question :)
2017-04-01T05:33:50Z aeth: Oh, I almost forgot, it's launch day for cl-brainfuck. Good thing I wrote all of it in advance. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-brainfuck/tree/master
2017-04-01T05:39:00Z fortitude: aeth: neat! so now we've got cl readers/compilers for brainfuck, C, and python(ish)
2017-04-01T05:39:15Z fortitude: we'll be giving racket a run for their money any day now
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2017-04-01T05:48:43Z aeth: fortitude: Oh, in case it's unclear, it is a compiler: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-brainfuck/commit/fe1bd3d46f75b589a4e25db392ded6176ef5df92
2017-04-01T05:49:42Z aeth: It's as compiled as CL is.
2017-04-01T05:49:57Z fortitude: aeth: I did see that, in addition to the reader macro
2017-04-01T05:50:18Z aeth: I need to add my string.bf example soon
2017-04-01T05:50:29Z aeth: Once I make sure it works, which could be in 12+ hours, whenever I have the time
2017-04-01T05:50:44Z fortitude: aeth: could you use (part of) the reader macro function to read from the brainfuck file directly, instead of writing out another CL file?
2017-04-01T05:51:03Z krwq: aeth: any plans for supporting simple lisp to bf compilation? :) that would be neat
2017-04-01T05:51:33Z aeth: krwq: That's what string.bf is for. It's not a weak null-terminated string that's as trivial as [. >] to print in BF
2017-04-01T05:51:40Z aeth: krwq: It's a CL-style array string
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2017-04-01T05:52:03Z aeth: I also need to add a cons.bf at some point, to implement cons pairs
2017-04-01T05:53:13Z krwq: aeth: i'm wondering how hard would it be to bootstrap defining functions in bf
2017-04-01T05:53:20Z fortitude: aeth: with a couple extra items you could compile a basic meta-circular interpreter into brainfuck hosted on cl
2017-04-01T05:56:40Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/cl-brainfuck/blob/72d8cf45a14f0e09429a3a20a84a865b95b50f22/string.bf
2017-04-01T05:57:04Z aeth: I have the basic concept down for strings, I just need to work with the length counter to only iterate that far
2017-04-01T05:57:51Z aeth: It's not very efficient. You can't jump around a relative distance on the array, so unless you hardcode the >s and <s you have to literally move the whole world with you
2017-04-01T05:58:16Z aeth: And yes, I use octal.
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2017-04-01T05:59:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: fortitude: I found a fix :) https://github.com/orthecreedence/cl-async/issues/146#issuecomment-290898131
2017-04-01T05:59:50Z aeth: Octal and hex are the most natural ways to express ASCII, and hex just takes too much space in Brainfuck lines.
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2017-04-01T06:01:45Z aeth: I have a few other things planned for cl-brainfuck other than embedding a tiny Lisp in it. (It probably won't be ready today.)
2017-04-01T06:01:53Z aeth: (For some reason, it's harder to write in Brainfuck than in CL.)
2017-04-01T06:02:03Z fortitude: aeth: can't imagine why...
2017-04-01T06:02:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: is your scheme implementation usable?
2017-04-01T06:02:46Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: excellent! kinda too bad it has to use unexported bits of cl+ssl, though... maybe cl+ssl should get a PR for that?
2017-04-01T06:03:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Orthecreedence isn't using cl+ssl at all, he has his own bindings in the repo
2017-04-01T06:03:51Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: It's usable as in I can call Scheme functions with #'identity as the continuation and they'll work as expected, except maybe not have errors that they should.
2017-04-01T06:05:14Z aeth: I've been spending most of my programming time on my game engine, though, so I haven't programmed up my designs (which are written on paper, actually, because the time I could find for it was away from my computer)
2017-04-01T06:05:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: fortitude: If I feel like it, I might extend his openssl wrapper to expose the necessary bits.
2017-04-01T06:05:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I've been interested in your scheme interpreter for a while, so I could embed a safe-ish lisp in some of my programs.
2017-04-01T06:06:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. in a slackbot
2017-04-01T06:06:22Z aeth: Oh, and my string representation in cl-brainfuck isn't final, I'll probably use tag bytes for types once I have more than one. (No need to try to be that efficient, it's a Brainfuck runtime anyway.)
2017-04-01T06:06:40Z aeth: And I'd end it on several (four?) consecutive 0s.
2017-04-01T06:07:23Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Part of the reason why it's taking so long is that I changed my approach (just like with cl-brainfuck) from an interpreter to a transpiler
2017-04-01T06:07:44Z aeth: In a lot of ways, an interpreter is more work because you have to track things that are free in CL.
2017-04-01T06:08:15Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: looks like he's got the right bits already (SSL-CTX-CTL) except for the constants
2017-04-01T06:09:08Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: cl+ssl's version is at https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/239930ac142485c9196374468fedb6f65f979a5a/src/ffi.lisp#L584
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2017-04-01T06:09:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: cl+ssl calls SSL-ctrl not SSL-ctx-ctrl
2017-04-01T06:09:33Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not aware of how cl-scheme could be a security risk, though. (That doesn't mean it's proven to be sandboxed!) Because it's a Lisp-1, any function it can use would have to be a variable first. i.e. it will only be able to funcall.
2017-04-01T06:10:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: yeah, that's probably right.  Although, it seems to me that a transpiler is a bit less trustworthy than an interpreter
2017-04-01T06:10:49Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: whoops, thought that was just a naming detail; this is what I get for eyeballing code at 2am :/
2017-04-01T06:11:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Mostly because, with an interpreter you "just" have to trust that the interpreter's eval doesn't expose any unsafe details
2017-04-01T06:11:29Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I could add back in an interpreter mode to it, but it would lead to a significant slow-down. I guess it wouldn't matter for your use.
2017-04-01T06:11:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: While a transpiler's output is executed in your namespace
2017-04-01T06:11:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/namespace/program's context/
2017-04-01T06:11:58Z aeth: The transpiler almost had no overhead in SBCL, i.e. it would almost be as fast as native SBCL code.
2017-04-01T06:12:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, first-class environments would help here . . .
2017-04-01T06:12:42Z aeth: The main loss in cl-scheme is in lack of inlining and type declarations, but I should be able to implement my own inlining for stuff like + and /
2017-04-01T06:12:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's one of the features of Chez scheme (perhaps the standard itself?) I envy ost
2017-04-01T06:13:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/ost/most
2017-04-01T06:13:31Z aeth: Afaik, cl-scheme should be secure on a CL that's designed around being safe like SICL.
2017-04-01T06:13:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2017-04-01T06:14:03Z aeth: It would just need to add the non-portable parts that cl-scheme relies on (Unicode, certain float things, etc.)
2017-04-01T06:17:49Z Balooga: Xach: Does Quicklisp support including binaries in the installs?
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2017-04-01T06:18:40Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I think I could reuse most of what I have for an interpreter as well. The vast majority of the code is the Scheme standard procedures and the reader.
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2017-04-01T06:23:40Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: quick patch to add the missing bits makes your example work against one of my SNI sites
2017-04-01T06:23:54Z fortitude: fiddlerwoaroof: not sure if cl-async needs a new option to enable SNI or not, though
2017-04-01T06:25:29Z vtomole: Does anyone know any disadvantages of compiling my lisp to LLVM? Compared to, say x86_64? It seems to me like all languages of the future will be compiling to some sort of virtual machine so they can support multiple architectures at the same time..
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2017-04-01T06:29:04Z fortitude: vtomole: drmeister's implementation (clasp) is doing that, I think
2017-04-01T06:29:47Z vtomole: ah yeah, i should tak to him about that then.
2017-04-01T06:30:18Z fortitude: vtomole: if you want to get technical, everything's running on the microcode VM in your CPU :)
2017-04-01T06:30:55Z vtomole: lmao
2017-04-01T06:31:33Z vtomole: It's intepreters all the way down
2017-04-01T06:32:10Z fortitude: vtomole: the Xerox PARC folks were writing microcode to support their smalltalk implementation (maybe also a lisp?) at one point, so yep
2017-04-01T06:34:27Z beach: vtomole: There are several disadvantages.  For one, LLVM is a moving target, so your code may break when LLVM changes.  Furthermore, they only support calling conventions that are practical for C and C++.  And they don't seem to support the possibility for code to be garbage collected, so if you generate LLVM code on the fly, your image keeps growing as you redefine your functions.   All of this information is inferred from complaints
2017-04-01T06:34:27Z beach: by drmeister on #clasp.  I haven't looked myself.
2017-04-01T06:36:02Z vtomole: Is that why a majority of clasp in in c++? Not lisp?
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2017-04-01T06:37:11Z beach: No, I don't think so.  Clasp is written in C++ because drmeister is a C++ programmer and apparently an expert.  Plus, drmeister is using C++ for bootstrapping.
2017-04-01T06:37:43Z beach: He is using the C++ API of LLVM to generate code, so to bootstrap, he uses C++.
2017-04-01T06:38:45Z beach: If he wanted to bootstrap using Common Lisp, he would have to find some FFI-based interface to LLVM, and apparently he did not want that.
2017-04-01T06:40:20Z beach: There is also the argument that consists of saying that, since the purpose of Clasp is to provide integration of C++ code into Common Lisp, then it is "natural" to write the system in C++.  I don't personally buy that argument, but drmeister is not the only one making it.
2017-04-01T06:41:20Z vtomole: I dont buy it either.  But to each his/her own.
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2017-04-01T06:49:20Z vtomole: beach: One more question. "lisp in small pieces" talks about the implementation of continuations. This is a scheme concept right? So i don't need to worry about it for SICL?
2017-04-01T06:50:01Z beach: Correct.  First-class continuations are a feature of Scheme, but not of Common Lisp.
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2017-04-01T06:50:58Z beach: But the word "continuation" is sometimes used as just a first-class function, for instance in "continuation-passing style" (CPS).
2017-04-01T06:51:45Z beach: So for Common Lisp, if CPS is going to be used, it is important that the system can do tail-call optimization so that the stack won't grow indefinitely when CPS is used.
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2017-04-01T06:53:04Z beach: That is one of the problems of LLVM by the way.  As I recall, it only supports tail-call optimization in certain situations (when it would be possible in C or C++).
2017-04-01T06:55:12Z vtomole: x86 and family doesn't run into that type of problem?
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2017-04-01T06:57:57Z beach: Correct.  If you have total control over things like argument passing and where the return address is stored, then you can implement tail-call optimization.  But if you follow the C conventions of argument passing, you will get in trouble.
2017-04-01T07:00:55Z vtomole:  Thanks beach. I'm making progress. It's slow, but progress nonetheless. Goodnight.
2017-04-01T07:01:02Z beach: The basic problem is that a C function (let's say it is named G) has no way of knowing how many arguments it was passed.  It is for the caller (let's say it is named F) to pop its arguments off the stack after the call to G returns.  But for tail-call optimization, if G needs to call another function, say H, if first needs to pop the arguments off the stack before pushing its own and jumping to (as opposed to calling) H.
2017-04-01T07:01:13Z beach: 'night vtomole.
2017-04-01T07:01:40Z beach: s/if first/it first/
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2017-04-01T08:13:53Z p_l: beaky: ... it appears to me that having last argument be always either the return address or "next continuation to call" makes a surprising amount of sense given that
2017-04-01T08:14:04Z p_l: ... *beach
2017-04-01T08:14:09Z p_l: damn, didn't notice he left
2017-04-01T08:14:41Z p_l: minion: message for beach: it appears to me that having last argument be always either the return address or "next continuation to call" makes a surprising amount of sense given that issue with C functions not knowing start of their stack
2017-04-01T08:14:41Z minion: message for beach it appears to me that having last argument be always either the return address or "next continuation to call" makes a surprising amount of sense given that issue with C functions not knowing start of their stack: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/message%20for%20beach%20it%20appears%20to%20me%20that%20having%20last%20argument%20be%20always%20either%20the%20return%20address%20or%20\"next%20continuation%
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2017-04-01T08:14:51Z p_l: ...
2017-04-01T08:15:02Z p_l: minion: memo for beach: it appears to me that having last argument be always either the return address or "next continuation to call" makes a surprising amount of sense given that issue with C functions not knowing start of their stack
2017-04-01T08:15:03Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-04-01T08:15:56Z p_l: minion: memo for beach: Despite having worked in security where I had to write exploits against exactly that issue - and now I get Chicken Scheme more :)
2017-04-01T08:15:56Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-04-01T10:23:25Z axion: Hello all. Pre-registration for the annual Lisp Game Jam is open: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode
2017-04-01T10:25:00Z daemoz: axion: thanks for the reminder!
2017-04-01T10:26:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: thanks
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2017-04-01T12:16:36Z malice: Hi all!
2017-04-01T12:16:58Z phoe: Hey
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2017-04-01T14:17:33Z jfe: hello.
2017-04-01T14:20:49Z jfe: i started writing a mark/sweep garbage collector for educational purposes and ended up with a lisp implementation. the problem i'm having is that if the GC collects while evaluating a functional call, the objects created during evaluation are collected. i'm wondering if anyone here can give me a hint for how to avoid that.
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2017-04-01T14:22:26Z jfe: one idea that i had was to mark all objects created during evaluation so they wouldn't be reclaimed during gc, but then i would have to somehow unmark them all after evaluation was complete.
2017-04-01T14:23:44Z jfe: if there is a better channel for the question, please let me know.
2017-04-01T14:25:24Z mood: jfe: I don't know much about this, but why would objects created during evaluation be collected? Aren't there pointers to them?
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2017-04-01T14:33:17Z jfe: mood: they won't be collected if i have a pointer to the "root" object
2017-04-01T14:33:51Z jfe: but i haven't yet thought of a general way to determine which object is the "root"
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2017-04-01T14:44:38Z beach: jfe: The roots are the registers of your machine.  Anything reachable from the registers should be kept alive.
2017-04-01T14:44:38Z minion: beach, memo from p_l: it appears to me that having last argument be always either the return address or "next continuation to call" makes a surprising amount of sense given that issue with C functions not knowing start of their stack
2017-04-01T14:44:38Z minion: beach, memo from p_l: Despite having worked in security where I had to write exploits against exactly that issue - and now I get Chicken Scheme more :)
2017-04-01T14:44:58Z loke```: jfe: Normally, the root objects are the objects on the stack, as well as the globals.
2017-04-01T14:45:20Z loke```: jfe: You should probably also include any pointers in registers.
2017-04-01T14:46:07Z beach: loke```: The stack pointer is enough to be a root.  It points to the stack.
2017-04-01T14:47:18Z jfe: beach, loke```: my implementation is unsophisticated, and has no notion of registers. because i'm using a plain alist as my environment for now, i "register" its pointer so it isn't collected, but that's about it.
2017-04-01T14:47:50Z jfe: and by unsophisticated, i mean "brain dead" :)
2017-04-01T14:48:05Z beach: jfe: What is your implementation written in?
2017-04-01T14:48:39Z jfe: i wrote it in c. here's the code: https://gitlab.com/ignant/gctest/blob/master/main.c
2017-04-01T14:48:55Z beach: jfe: Any local variables in C must then be included in the root set.
2017-04-01T14:50:48Z jfe: beach: at what are they removed from the set so they can be gc'd? when the function returns?
2017-04-01T14:50:57Z beach: Yes.
2017-04-01T14:51:15Z jfe: ah. so in addition to an environment alist i also need a stack structure.
2017-04-01T14:51:21Z beach: Or, technically, when the variable is no longer live, after the last time it was used.
2017-04-01T14:51:35Z beach: jfe: But you probably won't have the luxury of such precision.
2017-04-01T14:52:04Z beach: jfe: But if you are using the C stack, you don't know its structure.
2017-04-01T14:53:53Z jfe: i've been using my environment alist as a kind of stack. calls to (fact 6) would yield an environment like ((n . 1) (n . 2) (n . 3) (n . 4) (n . 5) (n . 6) (fact lambda (n) ...) (t . t) (nil nil)).
2017-04-01T14:54:18Z beach: Sure, if you are willing to give up local variables in C, then you should be fine.
2017-04-01T14:54:24Z jfe: but only temporarily. the (n . X)'s are removed as the recursive apply() calls return.
2017-04-01T14:54:32Z beach: Don't pass any arguments to your C functions either.
2017-04-01T14:55:50Z beach: ... or if you can be sure that the objects in your local C variables are also reachable from some other root.
2017-04-01T14:56:17Z beach: But the moment you do lispobj result = malloc (...) you are toast.
2017-04-01T14:58:08Z jfe: hmm. that'll be difficult.
2017-04-01T14:58:28Z beach: It is very difficult to write a correct Lisp implementation in C.
2017-04-01T14:58:54Z beach: If you can rely on unspecified behavior that you know that your C compiler has, you are a little bit better off.
2017-04-01T14:58:54Z jfe: right now i implement a lot of the lisp primitives in C. things like map() that take pointers to lisp cells.
2017-04-01T14:59:25Z beach: jfe: Why are you doing it this way?
2017-04-01T15:00:03Z jfe: beach: no reason.
2017-04-01T15:00:16Z beach: jfe: The reason you have so many Lisp implementations using the Boehm GC is that it is very hard to write a GC for Lisp.
2017-04-01T15:00:21Z beach: Er,
2017-04-01T15:00:39Z beach: when you are implementing it in a language like C.
2017-04-01T15:01:32Z beach: I am guessing they come to roughly where you are and then they realize that there is no way they can have a precise GC while using C local variables, and the C stack..
2017-04-01T15:01:43Z beach: So, they give up and go Boehm.
2017-04-01T15:02:02Z beach: But the GC is at the very center of your implementation if I understand you correctly.
2017-04-01T15:02:46Z beach: Even SBCL uses conservative stack scanning.
2017-04-01T15:03:23Z jfe: yes, unintentionally. it started as a test to teach myself how gc works and quickly became a little lisp.
2017-04-01T15:05:08Z loke```: jfe: It's hard to not end up with a Lisp when you do such thing.
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2017-04-01T15:11:01Z beach: jfe: Interestingly, C is too high level to be adapted to writing system code such as a Lisp system.
2017-04-01T15:11:19Z beach: jfe: For that reason, C-- was invented.  But it never took off.
2017-04-01T15:11:19Z beach:  
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2017-04-01T15:14:05Z jackdaniel: ECL is written in C
2017-04-01T15:15:03Z beach: I know.  It can be done, but often it requires some assumptions about what the compiler will be doing, so it is typically not conforming C.
2017-04-01T15:15:04Z jackdaniel: and WCL is written in C++ (it's still raw, but works)
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2017-04-01T15:15:33Z edgar-rft: WC-Lisp?
2017-04-01T15:16:05Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/wadehennessey/wcl
2017-04-01T15:16:11Z phoe: jackdaniel: WCL is C
2017-04-01T15:16:24Z beach: jackdaniel: What GC technique does ECL use?
2017-04-01T15:16:39Z jackdaniel: huh, it is? then maybe some other was c++
2017-04-01T15:16:55Z jackdaniel: beach: it had its own gc, but it got bit-rotten (I want to review it). Now it uses boehm
2017-04-01T15:17:24Z jackdaniel: non-moving conservative gc
2017-04-01T15:19:36Z jfe: and i thought the solution would be easy :) you've all given me a lot to think about.
2017-04-01T15:20:25Z jackdaniel: jfe: you may want to take a look at old ecolisp sources, it was way simplier back then
2017-04-01T15:20:38Z jackdaniel: so analyzing it's gc (written in C) may be a fruitful excercise
2017-04-01T15:21:04Z beach: its
2017-04-01T15:21:05Z jackdaniel: jfe: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/release/ (see files starting with "history-")
2017-04-01T15:21:11Z jackdaniel: yes, its, thanks
2017-04-01T15:21:12Z jackdaniel: :)
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2017-04-01T15:21:42Z beach: Does minion still do thwaps?
2017-04-01T15:21:53Z beach: minion: Thwap to jackdaniel.
2017-04-01T15:21:53Z minion: jackdaniel: look at Thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 )
2017-04-01T15:21:57Z beach: Yes!
2017-04-01T15:22:56Z jackdaniel: heh
2017-04-01T15:24:12Z jfe: jackdaniel: thanks ^_^
2017-04-01T15:25:14Z jackdaniel: its src/c/gbc.c I think
2017-04-01T15:26:25Z jackdaniel: ufasoft was written in c++ (windows fork of clisp with core rewritten in c++)
2017-04-01T15:26:55Z jackdaniel: also xcl had kernel in c++
2017-04-01T15:27:22Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/gnooth/xcl
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2017-04-01T15:40:05Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't think anybody doubts that a Lisp system can be written in C or C++, or any other Turing-complete language for that matter.
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2017-04-01T15:41:09Z beach: It is just a matter of which compromises you are willing to accept.
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2017-04-01T15:57:46Z gigamonkey: Okay, so what's the prostyle way these days to manage my libraries (ones I wrote, not loaded via quicklisp) so ASDF can find them?
2017-04-01T15:58:17Z gigamonkey: I've got a bunch of different github repos I can clone. Do I just push the resulting directory on asdf:*central-registry* in my .sbclrc or something?
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2017-04-01T15:59:51Z jackdaniel: gigamonkey: you link them in ~/quicklisp/local-projects
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2017-04-01T16:00:11Z jackdaniel: sometimes you need to issue (once) "(ql:register-local-projects)", or restart image
2017-04-01T16:00:40Z jackdaniel: your local projects take precedence over ql distributions one in quickload
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2017-04-01T16:01:42Z gigamonkey: link as in symlink?
2017-04-01T16:02:02Z jackdaniel: yes, or you may clone them directly to local-projects
2017-04-01T16:02:08Z jackdaniel: I symlink them
2017-04-01T16:02:19Z gigamonkey: Do I need to do anythig with the system-index.txt file which is currently the only thing in that dir?
2017-04-01T16:02:30Z jackdaniel: no
2017-04-01T16:03:02Z jackdaniel: you may need to issue register-local-projects or restart image, but it's not always obligatory
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2017-04-01T16:03:40Z jackdaniel: gigamonkey: as a bonus, you can do (ql:bundle-systems '(my-local-system) :to "/tmp/dir") and you have your software *with* its dependencies exported to /tmp/dir without any dependency on quicklisp
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2017-04-01T16:06:56Z jackdaniel: handy for deployment
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2017-04-01T16:10:53Z gigamonkey: Nice.
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2017-04-01T16:11:39Z gigamonkey: I feel like SLIME used to be able to tab-complete pathnames at the REPL. Am I dreaming? Doesn't seem to now. Do I need to do something to enable it or did it go away?
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2017-04-01T16:12:38Z jackdaniel: it does complete them in repl here
2017-04-01T16:12:53Z jackdaniel: maybe you forgot #\" ?
2017-04-01T16:13:05Z jackdaniel: also maybe try with M-TAB
2017-04-01T16:13:21Z Baggers: only completes paths inside strings for me
2017-04-01T16:13:48Z jackdaniel: same
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2017-04-01T16:23:31Z gigamonkey: Ah. My old slime config had slime-complete-symbol-function set which is now obsolete.
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2017-04-01T16:30:38Z loke```: Hello gigamonkey
2017-04-01T16:30:45Z loke```: I haven't seen you here in quiet a while.
2017-04-01T16:32:50Z gigamonkey: Indeed.
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2017-04-01T16:38:22Z loke```: Bye for now guys. It's getting late here.
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2017-04-01T17:51:14Z learning: hi. is it possible to pass a macro to a function?
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2017-04-01T17:52:40Z learning: I can do:   (dolist (x '(fn1 fn2 fn3)) (funcall x)) but i cant figure out how to do the same thing with macros. im assuming its not possible because macros happen before compilation?
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2017-04-01T17:53:25Z Baggers: Nope. You can pass a macro-function to a function at runtime [0]. But macros are expanded before runtime [0]file:///home/baggers/quicklisp/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm
2017-04-01T17:53:51Z Baggers: (this answer has very rough use of terms)
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2017-04-01T17:54:51Z phoe: Baggers: don't give me local links
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2017-04-01T17:55:00Z Baggers: woops!
2017-04-01T17:55:04Z Baggers: sorry about that
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2017-04-01T17:55:09Z phoe: unless you allow me to access file:///home/baggers/ you know
2017-04-01T17:55:11Z phoe: :3
2017-04-01T17:55:15Z Baggers: Just come over
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2017-04-01T17:55:30Z learning: lel. i just typed f_macro in firefox and the page came up
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2017-04-01T17:56:54Z aeth: I thought we all already had access?
2017-04-01T17:57:04Z gigamonkey: though you also need to ask youself *why* you want to pass a macro to a function.
2017-04-01T17:57:56Z learning: pretty simple
2017-04-01T17:58:23Z learning: want to be able to use dolist to test several macros using the same code
2017-04-01T17:58:50Z learning: if theres an easier way, im all ears
2017-04-01T17:58:59Z gigamonkey: How are you going to test the macros?
2017-04-01T17:59:02Z gigamonkey: Check their expansion?
2017-04-01T18:00:39Z learning: no i just want to be able to see their outputs
2017-04-01T18:01:11Z gigamonkey: Seems like macroexpand or macroexpand-1 might be what you're looking for.
2017-04-01T18:01:21Z learning: im doing a read-through of the lisp spec and a lot of times i will compare the output of different functions. works great. then i tried using it on a macro and it failed.
2017-04-01T18:01:23Z gigamonkey: If by 'outputs' you mean what they expand to.
2017-04-01T18:02:00Z gigamonkey: If you want to understand what a macro does, you want to see what code it generates, i.e. how it expands different forms.
2017-04-01T18:02:08Z gigamonkey: For which macroexpand is the thing.
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2017-04-01T18:04:07Z learning: i dont care about that. just the final result.
2017-04-01T18:05:37Z learning: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343140
2017-04-01T18:06:12Z learning: Error: Too few arguments in call to #<Compiled-function me Macroexpander #xC298396>:
2017-04-01T18:06:12Z learning: >        0 arguments provided, at least 2 required.
2017-04-01T18:06:25Z learning: im assuming i need to call macroexpand or something?
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2017-04-01T18:06:58Z gigamonkey: You could wrap it in a lambda (lambda () (me))
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2017-04-01T18:07:08Z gigamonkey: Or pass it as data '(me) and then eval it.
2017-04-01T18:08:07Z gigamonkey: But I feel like you may be thinking about this a bit the wrong way.
2017-04-01T18:08:42Z gigamonkey: The macro expander function is a fuction from sexps -> sexps.
2017-04-01T18:09:00Z gigamonkey: I.e. it computes the expansion of the macro. Which you say you don't care about.
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2017-04-01T18:09:13Z phoe: learning: not really.
2017-04-01T18:09:30Z phoe: (funcall (macro-function foo) '(foo 1 2 3) nil) <- this is how you call it.
2017-04-01T18:09:33Z phoe: clhs macro-function
2017-04-01T18:09:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm
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2017-04-01T18:09:38Z phoe: the first argument is the full macro call
2017-04-01T18:09:49Z phoe: the second is the environment, but you most likely want to provide NIL there.
2017-04-01T18:09:50Z gigamonkey: minion: logs
2017-04-01T18:09:50Z minion: logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2017-04-01T18:10:55Z aeth: since 2000? :o
2017-04-01T18:11:29Z mood: If you want them a little nicer to read/navigate, there's also http://irclog.tymoon.eu/
2017-04-01T18:11:34Z learning: ok so (macro-function foo) creates something that has to be called on a lisp form.
2017-04-01T18:11:42Z varjag: aeth: it's an old channel
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2017-04-01T18:13:34Z learning: does a nil environment argument default to the current environment or something, or is it literally nil?
2017-04-01T18:13:40Z aeth: 2000 isn't old, I was on IRC since 2002 or so, and I was late to IRC.
2017-04-01T18:13:47Z aeth: I'm just impressed that the logs are still arond
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2017-04-01T18:13:51Z aeth: *around
2017-04-01T18:14:38Z Josh_2: In 2000 I was sticking crayons up my nose and eating bugs
2017-04-01T18:15:13Z edgar-rft: aeth still does that today
2017-04-01T18:15:22Z aeth: never too old for that
2017-04-01T18:15:29Z gigamonkey: learning: the macro env is an implementation defined thingamabob that you can only access via an &env argument to a macro.
2017-04-01T18:15:31Z learning: gigamonkey: the lambda wrap seems to be my best bet. im not using this in any real application, im just using it to make 5 minute code exercises around while i go through the lisp docs.
2017-04-01T18:16:11Z gigamonkey: I mean you're going to want to wrap other functions in a lambda to make them into thunks anyway, it seems.
2017-04-01T18:16:25Z gigamonkey: (i.e. functions that take no arguments)
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2017-04-01T18:18:31Z learning: its not a huge deal, usually there's only 2-3 functions/macros that im using where i just dont want to write the same code twice and risk a stupid copy/paste error
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2017-04-01T18:21:36Z phoe: learning: it defaults to a null lexical environment.
2017-04-01T18:21:41Z phoe: clhs null lexical environment
2017-04-01T18:21:47Z phoe: ...oh well, it's in the glossary though
2017-04-01T18:23:14Z learning: do environments (ie this section http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm)   apply to just the &env argument to macros?
2017-04-01T18:23:35Z learning: when i was trying to read through that section i assumed it was something that applied all over the place
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2017-04-01T18:24:25Z phoe: yes, it's applied all over the place.
2017-04-01T18:24:37Z gigamonkey: The tricky thing about environments is that they aren't really first class.
2017-04-01T18:24:56Z gigamonkey: It as a thing that got dropped in the attempt to get the language spec done.
2017-04-01T18:25:30Z gigamonkey: There's a proposal in, I think, CLTL2, about how first class environments might look but they couldn't get it settled in time to include in the spec.
2017-04-01T18:25:32Z learning: thanks phoe, i found my answer "The null lexical environment is equivalent to the global environment. " right on that null lexical environment page
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2017-04-01T18:27:25Z gigamonkey: Is there an easy way to tell SLIME to fontify (i.e. colorize) certain macro forms in a particular way?
2017-04-01T18:27:37Z learning: by "first class" you mean that it's lacking better support (more functions, macros, globals, etc) that help you work with them?
2017-04-01T18:27:39Z jackdaniel: gigamonkey: beach made proposal for first class global environments
2017-04-01T18:27:49Z gigamonkey: E.g. if I define (defparser ...) and I want it colored like DEFUNs
2017-04-01T18:28:00Z jackdaniel: here: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2017-04-01T18:28:56Z gigamonkey: learning: meaning you can't get ahold of an environment object (well, except a little bit via the &env parameter of a macro) and once you've got it, it's pretty opaque (you can pass it in to a macroexpansion function and that's about it.)
2017-04-01T18:29:22Z Bicyclidine: environment objects only have dynamic extent, too. you can't return them from where you get them
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2017-04-01T18:29:59Z Bicyclidine: (though i don't know any implementations that actually do that)
2017-04-01T18:30:10Z learning: ok. so if environements had a class specification for example, that would be a step toward being a first class object?
2017-04-01T18:30:35Z learning: sorry for n00b questions. trying to learn the jargon
2017-04-01T18:30:56Z Bicyclidine: yeah, something like that. accessors, operations to do. a type to discriminate on would be nice too
2017-04-01T18:31:03Z Bicyclidine: "first-class" is a little vague as a concept, truly
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2017-04-01T18:31:37Z learning: ok cool
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2017-04-01T18:33:07Z phoe: basically a protocol for how to use them.
2017-04-01T18:33:24Z phoe: protocol - that's what they call API, or interface, in other languages.
2017-04-01T18:33:42Z Bicyclidine: or they call it protocol too
2017-04-01T18:33:47Z jackdaniel: protocol doesn't render something first-class. for instance cl-cont has a well defined protocol, but it's more emulation than native support
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2017-04-01T18:36:23Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, but a well-defined protocol is a requirement nonetheless.
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2017-04-01T18:39:02Z jackdaniel: well, not really. being first class means, that something is supported natively. api may change frequently (that's a bad thing, but still) and be internal for instance
2017-04-01T18:42:27Z jackdaniel: (or differ between implementations)
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2017-04-01T20:10:15Z mm_: hi all
2017-04-01T20:10:20Z Josh_2: Evening
2017-04-01T20:11:16Z mm_: can someone tell me why clisp and ecl are named by some 'antiviruses' malware program?
2017-04-01T20:11:57Z White_Flame: probably because being custom language environments, they don't do "standard" things?
2017-04-01T20:12:01Z Bicyclidine: those programs are dumb?
2017-04-01T20:12:23Z Bicyclidine: and clisp and ecl are compilers and interpreters, which are things malware do sometimes on a base level
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2017-04-01T20:14:31Z mm_: but for example sbcl are clear in opinion of some antiviruses
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2017-04-01T20:15:15Z mm_: same thing was happend with emacs
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2017-04-01T20:16:14Z Josh_2: Maybe you get a better av or a better OS
2017-04-01T20:16:24Z mm_: source are clear in opinion of some antiviruses, but windows .exe was 'malware' in their opinion
2017-04-01T20:16:40Z Josh_2: windows.exe is malware
2017-04-01T20:17:16Z mm_: i don't use windows (and any non-free os) and i just scan those files under virustotal
2017-04-01T20:18:28Z mm_: just out of curiosity
2017-04-01T20:19:20Z Josh_2: Email virustotal and ask?
2017-04-01T20:19:29Z White_Flame: so it's just doing some form of pattern matching on the binary? yeah, that'll be rife for false positives
2017-04-01T20:20:56Z mm_: not all 'antiviruses' says emacs, ecl and clisp are malware
2017-04-01T20:21:28Z White_Flame: of course, the more of them you use, the more false positives you'll get overall
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2017-04-01T20:23:00Z mm_: i think 'baidu av' are not very reliable
2017-04-01T20:24:18Z mm_: i just ask is it possible in your opinion to one of those programs are malicious
2017-04-01T20:24:31Z White_Flame: if you get it from a shady source, maybe
2017-04-01T20:24:42Z White_Flame: if your computer is infected somehow and mutating .exe's on your filesystem, maybe
2017-04-01T20:24:49Z White_Flame: but generally, no
2017-04-01T20:25:12Z _death: companies like baidu, which employ malware, sometimes tend to produce antivirus software to play politics with the other companies.. don't kill my malware and I won't kill yours
2017-04-01T20:26:25Z mm_: white_flame, i say few post ago, i don't use any non-free software, so i don't use .exe files
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2017-04-01T20:26:39Z White_Flame: right, and I said "somehow"
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2017-04-01T20:26:54Z Bicyclidine: well, you mentioned windows pexes before, so
2017-04-01T20:26:58Z White_Flame: just because you're on linux or BSD or whatever, doesn't mean there isn't malicious code afoot
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2017-04-01T20:30:11Z mm_: white_flame, if i trust developer of gnu+linux distribution, and use programs only from repo or source (check sha1 and gpg first), use only programs which is free software/opensource, it's very hard to get some malicious code
2017-04-01T20:30:29Z White_Flame: web browsing?
2017-04-01T20:30:58Z mm_: in lynx?
2017-04-01T20:31:13Z mm_: without javascript?
2017-04-01T20:31:20Z White_Flame: if you go that far, then ok
2017-04-01T20:31:26Z mm_: :)
2017-04-01T20:31:27Z White_Flame: but there's still SSH vulnerabilities etc
2017-04-01T20:31:38Z White_Flame: so unless you're airgapped, you're not 100% sure you're secure
2017-04-01T20:32:13Z White_Flame: and then there's the Intel cellular chips on the support chipsets now, that nobody knows the capabilities
2017-04-01T20:32:16Z mm_: i know, i say "it's very hard to get some malicious code" not "it's impossible"
2017-04-01T20:32:33Z Bicyclidine: if you built clisp yourself, and verified the hashes, and verified that your hasher is ok, and that your computer hasn't been secretly replaced with an evil robot, and are sure that reality exists rather than being an illusion set in place by a demon, and your AV says it's a worm, your AV is fulla shit
2017-04-01T20:32:33Z White_Flame: if you were a normal web user, it wouldn't be very hard
2017-04-01T20:32:43Z White_Flame: if you solely use lynx, then that makes a huge difference
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2017-04-01T20:34:34Z mm_: white_flame, im use lynx becouse im don't like gui
2017-04-01T20:36:00Z varjag: it's not like lynx is invulnerable in principle
2017-04-01T20:36:26Z varjag: just that it's so marginal few would research that attack vector
2017-04-01T20:36:38Z varjag: that said, https://www2.thaiadmin.org/board/index.php?topic=12662.0;imode
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2017-04-01T20:38:00Z mm_: i compiled it my self, with making some modifications in code
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2017-04-01T20:38:30Z akkad: install some Bastille devices to spot when the wireless chips kick in
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2017-04-01T20:39:29Z jackdaniel: mm_: I'm currently developing ecl, don't remember putting any backdoors in it lately :)
2017-04-01T20:39:53Z akkad: jackdaniel: you use gcc?
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2017-04-01T20:40:08Z jackdaniel: ecl works with both clang and gcc
2017-04-01T20:40:11Z varjag: jackdaniel: or that's what you want us to think!
2017-04-01T20:40:14Z jackdaniel: but yes, my host default compiler is gcc
2017-04-01T20:40:29Z mm_: jackdaniel, ok, i trust you
2017-04-01T20:40:42Z jackdaniel: varjag: hah! but my name is unfortunately known, so I wouldn't avoid punishment in case of proven malice ;)
2017-04-01T20:41:09Z jackdaniel: cool, it's good to be trusted
2017-04-01T20:41:37Z mm_: jackdaniel, you are from poland right?
2017-04-01T20:41:44Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-04-01T20:41:47Z jackdaniel: why?
2017-04-01T20:41:52Z mm_: me too
2017-04-01T20:42:07Z jackdaniel: you may be interested in hanging on #lisp-pl sometimes
2017-04-01T20:42:13Z varjag: jackdaniel: how do we know your name is real?!
2017-04-01T20:42:23Z varjag: could well be a brand of whiskey or something
2017-04-01T20:42:35Z White_Flame: it's not about the lack of intentional back doors, or compiling it yourself, it's all abotu hidden lurking bugs that might be exploited
2017-04-01T20:42:58Z jackdaniel: yes, I can't deny that ECL might have exploitable bugs (and probably has!)
2017-04-01T20:43:29Z Bicyclidine: that wouldn't be malware, it would be irresponsibleware. (and if you had a program that could detect that, well, might be worth more than the AV)
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2017-04-01T20:45:36Z varjag: i just assume everything written in c is exploitable
2017-04-01T20:45:43Z aeth: I think almost all C code almost certainly has undiscovered serious security bugs, but it's hard to avoid C entirely. e.g. SBCL's GC is in C.
2017-04-01T20:46:19Z aeth: It looks like CCL has some C, too. (Maybe the GC again?)
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2017-04-01T20:47:05Z Bicyclidine: probably going to be difficult to write memory management without using memory and bare pointers and things
2017-04-01T20:47:07Z jackdaniel: maybe CL has less undiscovered serious security bugs, because there is less software written in CL? :)
2017-04-01T20:47:36Z varjag: cl has fewer classes of security bugs possible
2017-04-01T20:47:42Z aeth: jackdaniel: Unless you're using (speed 3) (safety 0) in an implementation where those settings are dangerous, you're not going to run into the same class of issues.
2017-04-01T20:47:53Z Bicyclidine: i found an arbitrary code execution!
2017-04-01T20:48:04Z jackdaniel: putting aside overflows, security bugs may arise from higher level logic
2017-04-01T20:48:10Z varjag: Bicyclidine: eval?
2017-04-01T20:48:11Z jackdaniel: handled by a programmer, not language itself
2017-04-01T20:48:39Z varjag: yes
2017-04-01T20:48:45Z Josh_2: Don't use Read :P
2017-04-01T20:48:46Z aeth: jackdaniel: Yes, bug most bugs are bugs that are basically only present in languages like C and C++.
2017-04-01T20:48:48Z varjag: they account for about 0.5% of CVEs
2017-04-01T20:48:55Z jackdaniel: so the bug is introduced by a correct (technically) programming construct, but having a bug when taken with high level logic perspectrive
2017-04-01T20:49:02Z varjag: (made it up, but can't be that far)
2017-04-01T20:49:23Z aeth: jackdaniel: Afaik, if you wanted to find something similar to a typical C-style bug in a GCed language (even if it used no C) you'd probably have to look in the GC's code itself.
2017-04-01T20:49:24Z jackdaniel: aeth: very brave statement which is hard to prove I think
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2017-04-01T20:50:16Z aeth: jackdaniel: Most bugs in C and C++ are because of dangerous things like goto (well, CL isn't going to help you there), no bounds checking, etc., iirc. You can probably find sources that disagree and agree, though.
2017-04-01T20:50:22Z jackdaniel: (regarding stating, that "most bugs … C / C++")
2017-04-01T20:50:29Z varjag: eh.. goto is innocent here
2017-04-01T20:50:35Z jurov: aeth: most languages use standard C library, which was shown to be rich source of vulns
2017-04-01T20:51:02Z TMA: I have read a study somewhere, that bug density is about the same in every language (one bug per ten lines)
2017-04-01T20:51:26Z aeth: TMA: So I guess switching to a higher level high level language just switches more bugs to logic errors :-p
2017-04-01T20:51:27Z varjag: we are talking some specific class of bugs
2017-04-01T20:51:46Z varjag: which is exploitable to security vulnerability
2017-04-01T20:51:49Z aeth: TMA: Maybe because it's safer, but people are less skilled and/or less alert for bugs?
2017-04-01T20:52:04Z jackdaniel: yeah, but my point is that trivial bugs (like overflow, no bound check etc), are easy to spot even automatically, hence not frequent in comparison with other bugs in "secure" software
2017-04-01T20:52:24Z varjag: jackdaniel: they are not easy to spot automatically
2017-04-01T20:52:31Z aeth: oh, null's another one
2017-04-01T20:52:37Z aeth: but you get null problems even in e.g. Java
2017-04-01T20:52:43Z aeth: Especially in Java.
2017-04-01T20:52:56Z aeth: Java should be called NullPointerException, as that is what that esolang is designed for.
2017-04-01T20:52:58Z Josh_2: aeth: the problem is Java hue hue
2017-04-01T20:53:12Z varjag: null pointer exception in java does not lead to remote code execution
2017-04-01T20:53:53Z aeth: Right, but null pointer exceptions are usually how I find out that the program is written in Java! Very helpful way to know how the program died, usually passed on to the user that way, instead of just a "Segmentation fault" in the terminal
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2017-04-01T20:54:13Z varjag: jackdaniel: the bulk of vulnerabilities in modern software are integer overflows and blown buffers in c and c++
2017-04-01T20:54:53Z jurov: eh, jvm too goes down with segfault every now and then
2017-04-01T20:54:58Z TMA: aeth: the "bug" in this study was anything that "should not have been" - logic error, off by one, omitted bound check, ...
2017-04-01T20:55:05Z varjag: jurov: of course
2017-04-01T20:55:11Z varjag: jvm is written in c after all
2017-04-01T20:55:49Z jurov: we should switch to ada...but all the safety causes it to be boring
2017-04-01T20:56:07Z jurov: nfi about rust
2017-04-01T20:58:05Z jackdaniel: varjag: according to quick search on ddg, these causes aren't making into top 5
2017-04-01T20:58:21Z jackdaniel: but I'm not security expert, so I may be wrong
2017-04-01T20:58:53Z varjag: i'm subscribed to lwn, nad they have cve section every issue
2017-04-01T20:59:24Z varjag: if you click on any escalation bug, it turns out something c-related
2017-04-01T20:59:30Z varjag: more often than not
2017-04-01T20:59:52Z TMA: the higher level languages can pack more features with less bugs (because feature in high level language takes less code to implement)
2017-04-01T20:59:53Z jackdaniel: varjag: lwn is C-world oriented, isn't it?
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2017-04-01T21:00:28Z aeth: I think the way of putting it is: The majority of bugs in C-related programs have to do with the (mis)features of C.
2017-04-01T21:00:29Z jackdaniel: also, it's understandable, that more bugs is discovered in more widely used software
2017-04-01T21:01:05Z jackdaniel: (and in larger codebase)
2017-04-01T21:01:09Z varjag: jackdaniel: they report all bugs related to linux distros
2017-04-01T21:01:15Z varjag: in any way
2017-04-01T21:01:25Z varjag: well secuirty bugs
2017-04-01T21:01:35Z aeth: Oh, Linux distros also use a ton of Python
2017-04-01T21:01:37Z jackdaniel: yes, but security expert, given he runs (random), will pick C/C++ based application on Linux ecosystem
2017-04-01T21:01:38Z aeth: Tons of it.
2017-04-01T21:01:44Z varjag: yes
2017-04-01T21:01:49Z aeth: Everything slow your distro is running is probably in Python, unless it's really old, then it's in Perl
2017-04-01T21:02:15Z varjag: aeth: python secuirty issues are few and between
2017-04-01T21:02:19Z jackdaniel: either way, I have a long travel tomorrow, so I probably need to go sleep
2017-04-01T21:02:21Z jackdaniel: good night o/
2017-04-01T21:02:25Z aeth: The C world isn't just C. Lots of people use scripting languages like Python, Lua, ECL, etc.
2017-04-01T21:02:38Z aeth: And the more that's in the scripting language the better, imo
2017-04-01T21:03:02Z aeth: The scripting language implementation can be hardened much easier than literally every application everywhere because it's centralized.
2017-04-01T21:03:35Z aeth: I trust indirect use of C a lot more than direct use, given a random application.
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2017-04-01T21:04:06Z varjag: remember any major vulnerability in the wild, it's typically c-related
2017-04-01T21:04:08Z varjag: heartbleed
2017-04-01T21:04:11Z varjag: cloudbleed
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2017-04-01T21:05:40Z mm_: is it available some lisp implementaton which is written in lisp
2017-04-01T21:05:42Z mm_: ?
2017-04-01T21:06:08Z aeth: SBCL and CCL are mostly written in Lisp, but they have some parts written in C. From the looks of it, it's primarily their GCs.
2017-04-01T21:06:48Z aeth: SICL atm is 100% CL but (1) it's incomplete and (2) I'm not sure how they'll solve the GC problem. https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2017-04-01T21:06:48Z varjag: mezzano is written in lisp
2017-04-01T21:07:21Z aeth: varjag: Mezzano requires SBCL to bootstrap itself.
2017-04-01T21:07:46Z varjag: aeth: mezzano does not use c compiler output
2017-04-01T21:07:48Z varjag: in any form
2017-04-01T21:08:02Z aeth: Yes, but you have to trust the bootstrap process, and you have to trust the probably-in-C-or-C++ VM you run it in.
2017-04-01T21:08:32Z varjag: you don't have to run it in vm
2017-04-01T21:08:43Z varjag: that's on you
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2017-04-01T21:09:29Z varjag: as to bootstrap process, we can equate all linux software to a small set of hand-written assembly on pdp-11
2017-04-01T21:09:38Z varjag: this is hardly a sound argument
2017-04-01T21:09:40Z aeth: Writing an OS is easy. Writing drivers for literally every piece of hardware out there is hard.
2017-04-01T21:09:49Z aeth: So most OSes are run in VMs.
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2017-04-01T21:10:33Z varjag: well mezzano can run on real hardware in the same configuration as your vm
2017-04-01T21:10:38Z varjag: so i don't get that point
2017-04-01T21:11:05Z varjag: of course it won't make use of your gtx 1080 but so what
2017-04-01T21:11:21Z aeth: varjag: You don't just have to trust the hand-written assembly, you also need to trust the chain of intermediate compilers since then. https://www.win.tue.nl/~aeb/linux/hh/thompson/trust.html
2017-04-01T21:11:38Z varjag: we are talking about inadverently introduced bugs
2017-04-01T21:11:41Z aeth: Sorry for the poorly formatted link. The original that I had in my history is now gone
2017-04-01T21:11:47Z varjag: leading to security exploits
2017-04-01T21:11:53Z varjag: not backdooring
2017-04-01T21:12:11Z krwq: is it possible to escape null character in the middle of the string without using format or putting null character in the middle of the file?
2017-04-01T21:12:13Z aeth: varjag: an exploit can lead to a backdoor
2017-04-01T21:12:38Z aeth: varjag: imagine if the NSA or the CIA exploited the machines used to build gcc for Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora, etc.
2017-04-01T21:12:51Z varjag: you confuse two very different things
2017-04-01T21:13:11Z varjag: backdoor is a specified-in piece of code left on purpose
2017-04-01T21:13:15Z varjag: it's not a bug
2017-04-01T21:13:21Z varjag: it's an intended behaviour
2017-04-01T21:13:24Z aeth: Well, I'm saying you really can't avoid the security flaws in C.
2017-04-01T21:13:38Z varjag: you can get as cerative as human can with it, and it's not limited to c in any way
2017-04-01T21:14:00Z aeth: An unreported security bug could backdoor gcc, and then backdoor SBCL and then backdoor Mezzano.
2017-04-01T21:14:12Z aeth: If a well-funded malicious entity chose to do so and could find the bug.
2017-04-01T21:14:13Z varjag: but integer overflows and buffer overrun hazards won't magically hop over in compiled lisp code
2017-04-01T21:14:20Z Bicyclidine: that would be a pretty incredible buffer overflow hot damn
2017-04-01T21:14:55Z aeth: varjag: no, I'm saying that you could backdoor the C compiler that builds the GC of a Lisp implementation and then build the backdoor into the GC. And now there's a backdoored CL.
2017-04-01T21:15:10Z varjag: aeth: C step is redundant here
2017-04-01T21:15:15Z varjag: you can backdoor in lisp too
2017-04-01T21:15:32Z aeth: But it's much easier to do that to C.
2017-04-01T21:15:48Z varjag: that's not related to the point that most red-blooded, exploitable security bugs are c specific bugs
2017-04-01T21:16:03Z varjag: introduced without any malice
2017-04-01T21:16:22Z mm_: if you want to make backdoor, that doesn't make difference in what language you will make it
2017-04-01T21:16:25Z aeth: If someone were to attack a CL, they would probably be looking into the C or C++ part, not the CL part. (Although, yes, part of that would be due to security by obscurity in terms of language knowledge.)
2017-04-01T21:16:27Z varjag: aeth: i don't see how it's easier or harder in c
2017-04-01T21:16:59Z varjag: aeth: if there is a backdoor, they don't need to look for anything
2017-04-01T21:17:02Z varjag: they go through backdoor
2017-04-01T21:17:14Z aeth: varjag: The bugs are introduced without malice, but they can be used to introduce something else.
2017-04-01T21:17:30Z aeth: varjag: Okay, let me rephrase.
2017-04-01T21:17:52Z aeth: You'd abuse a C vulnerability to get the ability to plant a backdoor.
2017-04-01T21:18:11Z aeth: And if you really wanted to hide it well, you could hide it in the compilation process rather than in the CL itself.
2017-04-01T21:18:38Z aeth: And you'd probably hide it in the C part of an implementation, not the CL part.
2017-04-01T21:18:42Z varjag: aeth: we discuss what is remotely theoretically possible vs what happens in practice
2017-04-01T21:18:45Z Bicyclidine: jesus christ, no wonder people stick with 419s and phishing
2017-04-01T21:19:02Z Bicyclidine: no need for threat modeling
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2017-04-01T21:20:26Z aeth: varjag: It would be much harder to hide a backdoor in CL code via the compilation process because you can disassemble everything and read the assembly at runtime. Unless you were to backdoor disassemble itself.
2017-04-01T21:20:47Z Bicyclidine: nobody actually does that
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2017-04-01T21:21:27Z Bicyclidine: you need to seriously consider who you are and who your attacker is before you can undertake much of any analysis, or you'll end up wearing tinfoil
2017-04-01T21:21:37Z varjag: exactly
2017-04-01T21:21:54Z Bicyclidine: and it's pretty hard to make a tinfoil cap that actually functions as a faraday cage!
2017-04-01T21:23:10Z aeth: I read disassemble all the time. Not for security reasons, though.
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2017-04-01T21:23:37Z Bicyclidine: do you read the entire disassembly of everything in the image
2017-04-01T21:23:59Z varjag: (every time)
2017-04-01T21:24:18Z Bicyclidine: and do you need to do this at runtime rather than in compiled binaries because obviously you can read C compiled assembly too
2017-04-01T21:24:34Z Bicyclidine: and if you're using SBCL several assembly routines etc. are not accessible to the runtime disassembler
2017-04-01T21:24:43Z aeth: Of course not. But the main problem would be e.g. macros or functions like + or map that can have different disassemblies depending on the type that that compiler detects, if it knows the type.
2017-04-01T21:25:08Z aeth: So you'd also have to create trivial functions for each type, and disassemble those trivial functions, instead of just disassembling +
2017-04-01T21:25:20Z Bicyclidine: no, the main problem is doing this in the first place
2017-04-01T21:25:20Z aeth: Which quickly becomes humanly impossible
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2017-04-01T21:27:17Z Bicyclidine: seriously, it's ok to just say you don't like implicit int conversions or something, you don't have to come up with these nutty convoluted reasons to dislike C
2017-04-01T21:28:20Z mm_: think about C++ ! it's much worst than C
2017-04-01T21:28:38Z jackdaniel: aeth: I have the impression, that you argue for the sole purpose of proving your point, no matter where the reason is (judging from backlog)
2017-04-01T21:30:05Z aeth: Bicyclidine: oh, C? the reasons are simple: null, poorly thought-out "strings", no bounds-checking, no GC, etc., the usual stuff.
2017-04-01T21:30:28Z Bicyclidine: great, so you can stop this weird thing about triple backdoors and disassemblers
2017-04-01T21:30:29Z aeth: Although *some* of those can also be advantages in niche situations (like no GC and no bounds checking)
2017-04-01T21:30:59Z aeth: I should've just given up on the side point a long time ago because it's irrelevant.
2017-04-01T21:32:18Z Bicyclidine: right
2017-04-01T21:33:38Z aeth: mm_: C++, the language you literally can't even parse.
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2017-04-01T21:34:09Z aeth: Although, like with goto, I can't really judge it for that in a CL channel. I guess reader macros without a # are very rare, though.
2017-04-01T21:35:41Z TMA: aeth: you can parse C++. it isn't an easy endeavor, though
2017-04-01T21:36:52Z mm_: in C++ it's very hard to understand code that you don't wrote
2017-04-01T21:37:00Z aeth: jackdaniel: I used to love to argue online constantly when I was a teenager. Every now and then, I guess I can be drawn back into it. Old habits, I guess.
2017-04-01T21:37:33Z aeth: If I see it coming, I usually delete the message (in an IRC with readline, it's as simple as Ctrl+U)
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2017-04-01T22:03:45Z shrdlu68: I see there's a new Ironclad release. Do we now have ecdsa support?
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2017-04-01T22:05:58Z shrdlu68: Ah, there's eddsa support now :)
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2017-04-01T22:13:35Z libreman: Is it possible to do something like @property from python in lisp? So call a method for slot access? So call a function/method/lambda when using SLOT-VALUE.
2017-04-01T22:14:24Z _death: slot-value-using-class
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2017-04-01T22:24:38Z aeth: If I introduced a bug in my program where it basically never finishes compiling the file in SLIME, how would I know where to look besides just going through the large git diff and piece by piece reverting things until the file compiles?
2017-04-01T22:24:54Z aeth: I suppose I could try to use another CL and see if it gives any warnings that I'm not getting from SBCL...
2017-04-01T22:25:16Z _death: bisecting the diff shouldn't take long
2017-04-01T22:25:25Z aeth: It's a large diff.
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2017-04-01T22:25:45Z _death: bisection is lg N
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2017-04-01T22:33:02Z aeth: What I wound up doing is running CCL and fixing all the warnings there because it doesn't hang up in CCL.
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2017-04-01T22:44:47Z pjb: of bisecting the source file.
2017-04-01T22:45:23Z dxtr: _death: bisect doesn't help if it's one large commit :p
2017-04-01T22:46:20Z dxtr: Or does it? Hmm
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2017-04-01T22:53:28Z libreman: _death: doe slot-value-using-class work even when the user calls slot-value?
2017-04-01T22:53:33Z libreman: s/doe/does
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2017-04-01T23:02:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: dxtr: you could reset the commit and then split it into smaller commits before bisecting
2017-04-01T23:03:02Z dxtr: true
2017-04-01T23:03:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could even commit the changes to a single file piecemeal by using line ranges
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2017-04-01T23:19:29Z aeth: The problem is that this commit can't really be broken up
2017-04-01T23:19:45Z aeth: Well, besides the way I already have, which is doing each struct one by one.
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2017-04-01T23:24:46Z jasom: aeth: sbcl prints out each top-level form as it compiles it, so you should be able to narrow down where the problem is
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2017-04-01T23:48:03Z aeth: jasom: All I get is a ......... from ASDF (or is it Quicklisp?)
2017-04-01T23:48:19Z jasom: aeth: :verbose t
2017-04-01T23:48:34Z jasom: aeth: or just manually compile each file in turn
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2017-04-01T23:49:27Z aeth: I can't manually compile the files because it's a huge mess of files. I could wait for it to compile, and then recompile it, though, maybe
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2017-04-01T23:49:42Z aeth: That is, assuming it terminates. Last time I encountered this it did, eventually
2017-04-01T23:50:13Z jasom: also using asdf:load-system instead of ql:quickload shows somewhat more information by default
2017-04-01T23:50:55Z jasom: sbcl is very slow with large toplevel forms; I had a 60MB toplevel form and it took about a day to compile.  I split it up into multiple toplevel forms and it compiled in about 5 minutes
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2017-04-01T23:53:01Z drmeister: Are there any ASDF developers online at the moment?
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2017-04-01T23:53:22Z drmeister: I'm having an issue porting ASDF 3.2 to Clasp
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2017-04-01T23:56:39Z aeth: or maybe not this time...
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2017-04-01T23:58:28Z aeth: Last time I had a long compile, it was due to a declare dynamic-extent within a loop within a loop. It lasted about a minute iirc, and I fixed it by just having that loop replace each time rather than having the dynamic-extent in each iteration of the loop
2017-04-02T00:01:02Z aeth: jasom: good call, asdf:load-system showed me exactly what function was doing it
2017-04-02T00:01:44Z |3b| would probably just interrupt it and see if i could tell from backtrack
2017-04-02T00:01:44Z aeth: One that I literally commented ";;; todo: is there a better way?"
2017-04-02T00:02:25Z jasom needs to add a post-commit hook that greps for "todo" in the source code
2017-04-02T00:03:38Z _death: jasom: what would it do with http://paste.lisp.org/display/329795
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2017-04-02T00:06:35Z pjb: I find it rather silly.
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2017-04-02T00:07:12Z _death: pjb: of course it is.. (setf (fdefinition 'sum) #'smart-sum)
2017-04-02T00:07:44Z pjb: TODO are program-writing-time stuff.  They shouldn't be processed at run-time.
2017-04-02T00:08:04Z pjb: You can still put todo declarations, but they need to be processed by special tools in the editor, before compilation-time.
2017-04-02T00:08:15Z pjb: In the editor or in git, etc.
2017-04-02T00:08:25Z _death: pjb: I just had to write it after reading that paragraph
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2017-04-02T00:09:59Z pjb: Yes, but instead of defmacro defun, you should write a git hook and an emacs hook. Or in CL some tool to extract the todo declarations and do something with them.
2017-04-02T00:11:24Z _death: could be a property on a symbol.. (setf (get 'sum 'todo) '(list of things to be done))
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2017-04-02T00:11:50Z pjb: This would be useful if you had an in-the-image IDE.
2017-04-02T00:12:04Z pjb: But if you work with slime, you need this stulff in emacs.
2017-04-02T00:12:07Z drmeister: I wonder if I could get some advice on this.   When Cando (Clasp + Chemistry code) starts up it loads quicklisp and asdf 3.2.
2017-04-02T00:12:08Z _death: or automatic reference generator
2017-04-02T00:12:28Z drmeister: When it starts at the REPL the symbol OS-COND is exported from UIOP/OS
2017-04-02T00:13:00Z _death: pjb: swank can always help
2017-04-02T00:13:20Z drmeister: When I (ql:quickload :pzmq) the compiler signals an error because OS-COND wasn't recognized.   When I check it - it is now an internal symbol is UIOP/OS!
2017-04-02T00:13:22Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5FFn90rw/
2017-04-02T00:13:29Z pjb: The point is that you can edit lisp progframs in emacs, without having them loaded in a CL implementation!
2017-04-02T00:13:38Z Guest36204: Hi, is there some kind of `else` to `loop`'s `when`?
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2017-04-02T00:15:10Z pjb: Guest36204: yes. But then you write it IF, not WHEN: (loop :repeat 1 :if condition :then :do (then) :else :do (else))
2017-04-02T00:15:38Z Guest36204: pjb: that makes sense, thanks. Now I just wonder if it works nested in another WHEN :)
2017-04-02T00:15:40Z pjb: clhs loop
2017-04-02T00:15:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-04-02T00:15:46Z drmeister: This can only happen if the symbol is unexported - correct?
2017-04-02T00:16:01Z pjb: Yes, since there's an optional :end
2017-04-02T00:16:35Z Guest36204: pjb: I just wonder what the end will bind to -- the if or the when :)
2017-04-02T00:16:49Z pjb:  (loop :repeat 1 :if (cond1) :then :if (cond2) :then :do (then-then) :else :do (then-else) :end :else :if (cond2) :then :do (else-then) :else :do (else-else) :end :end)
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2017-04-02T00:17:20Z drmeister: Sure enough - (trace unexport)  shows that it's unexported
2017-04-02T00:17:22Z pjb:  Guest36204: both.  IF and WHEN are identical. Just you would use IF instead of WHEN if you have ELSE clauses.
2017-04-02T00:17:29Z Guest36204: I don't see `then` usable for IF/WHEN, pjb, in the clhs
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2017-04-02T00:18:23Z pjb: Look at the grammar rule for conditional.
2017-04-02T00:18:52Z pjb: Err, you're right s/:THEN//g
2017-04-02T00:18:54Z Guest36204: I don't see a then there
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2017-04-02T00:20:03Z pjb: Yes, remove them.
2017-04-02T00:20:39Z pjb: (loop :repeat 1 :if (cond1) :if (cond2) :do (then-then) :else :do (then-else) :end :else :if (cond2) :do (else-then) :else :do (else-else) :end :end)
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2017-04-02T00:26:57Z Ven`: looks like I don't even need the end, it just Does The Right Thing™
2017-04-02T00:27:45Z pjb: Ven`: the :end is only needed for the dangling else problem.
2017-04-02T00:28:07Z Ven`: dangling else
2017-04-02T00:29:07Z Ven`: not sure what case this happens in? multiple nested ifs?
2017-04-02T00:30:51Z pjb: if a then if b then foo else bar ; when do you do bar?
2017-04-02T00:31:10Z pjb: It can be either (not a) or (and a (not b)).  We don't know.
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2017-04-02T00:33:05Z Ven`: alright, that case.
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2017-04-02T01:53:27Z drmeister: I solved my problem above.   I added support for asdf 3.2 but kept the old asdf and for some reason it was still using the old asdf.
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2017-04-02T04:26:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-02T04:33:54Z krwq: morning beach
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2017-04-02T04:50:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: morning beach
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2017-04-02T05:17:03Z aeth: Hmm, before I start accidentally reinventing the wheel, I probably should ask in here. Is there anything in CL that sets a row of a 2D array, like (setf (subseq foo 0 10)) ...) except for a row?
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2017-04-02T05:18:18Z aeth: e.g. (psetf (aref foo 32 0) 1 (aref foo 32 1) 2 (aref foo 32 2) 3)
2017-04-02T05:23:11Z aeth: (I've already written the macro, but I've written things that already exist in CL plenty of times before.)
2017-04-02T05:23:48Z pjb: (map-into (make-array 3 :displaced-to foo :displacement-offset (array-row-major-index foo 32 0)) 'identity '(1 2 3))
2017-04-02T05:24:19Z pjb: Well, I mean: :displaced-to foo :displaced-index-offset …
2017-04-02T05:24:26Z aeth: I did this: (defmacro set-array-row (array row variable-list) `(psetf ,@(loop for i in variable-list with counter = -1 do (incf counter) collect `(aref ,array ,row ,counter) collect i)))
2017-04-02T05:24:41Z aeth: which at least works when the variables are defined before using the form
2017-04-02T05:24:50Z aeth: It will, I think, copy anything that someone puts directly in there new
2017-04-02T05:25:12Z aeth: e.g. if they did (make-array) within the macro
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2017-04-02T05:27:49Z pjb: aeth: you may want to define a row (and column) abstraction.
2017-04-02T05:29:58Z aeth: There's two main things I'd want to do a row at a time, and that's set into (I just wrote that) and copy into (not that different, except length would be unknown at macro expansion time unless given)
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2017-04-02T05:30:37Z aeth: Copying, I suppose, is a bit complicated because the copying could be coming from a 1D sequence or a 2D array
2017-04-02T05:30:46Z pjb: Use displaced arrays, for rows, it's the best way IMO.
2017-04-02T05:31:09Z aeth: I cannot use displaced arrays because #sbcl explicitly told me not to, for performance reasons.
2017-04-02T05:31:23Z pjb: They're dumb.
2017-04-02T05:31:31Z aeth: This part of the program needs to be fast more than anything else because it's going to be used by the renderer and the physics engine
2017-04-02T05:31:48Z aeth: The faster this is, the more the whole program can do and the lazier people can be when it comes time for e.g. AI and scripting
2017-04-02T05:32:07Z pjb: Then re-implement the equivalent of displaced arrays, and make it faster than sbcl implementors.
2017-04-02T05:32:15Z aeth: Basically.
2017-04-02T05:33:06Z aeth: What I'm writing can only currently (afaik) run on SBCL and CCL, and it uses half as much CPU on SBCL, so any applications would probably be packaged using SBCL.
2017-04-02T05:33:38Z aeth: So I have to pay close attention to what features to avoid in SBCL.
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2017-04-02T05:34:20Z pjb: I wonder why you ask in #lisp then. THis is for Common Lisp,  not for sbcl specific code.
2017-04-02T05:35:35Z aeth: It is portable CL, between SBCL and CCL. Today, I did most of my development in CCL, actually. I'm not going to test it on a commercial Lisp, and I can't figure out what is hogging the CPU in ECL, and CLISP is insufficient in terms of performance, even if I got it running there.
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2017-04-02T05:35:55Z aeth: I'm looking forward to testing it on Clasp and SICL when they're ready.
2017-04-02T05:36:34Z pjb: Well, I can imagine writing multiple versions of the same code, then benchmarking the current implementation to select at run-time the best version for it.
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2017-04-02T05:39:06Z aeth: Oh... I didn't mention ABCL and CMUCL. I could possibly get it to work in CMUCL. Maybe it already works there. Optimizing it for the JVM and ABCL could require a lot of work, so I'm probably not going to ever bother, but the source is out there.
2017-04-02T05:39:43Z pjb: I pity you, for having to care so much about the speed of your code.
2017-04-02T05:40:28Z aeth: I am caring about the speed of this particular section because it is a pain to rewrite if I get it wrong. It has taken me days to do this rewrite.
2017-04-02T05:41:25Z aeth: I don't care at all about the performance of e.g. the part that generates GLSL strings because it's not central, and it's not run in the game loop.
2017-04-02T05:42:29Z aeth: The part that's tricky here is essentially the central state store for the game, which isn't really a problem most people have. Most applications revolving around such a thing would probably use a database.
2017-04-02T05:43:26Z pjb: Why do you user arrays? Assigning lexical variables should be the fastest way to change state.
2017-04-02T05:43:29Z aeth: This part is pretty close to an in-memory database. If I used db terms, there's a schema and tables, etc.
2017-04-02T05:45:35Z aeth: I am very close to abandoning the language of an entity component system and adopting instead the language of a relational database. I might do this.
2017-04-02T05:48:20Z aeth: As I have written it, the array rows are basically columns of a database table and the structs that contain those are basically tables. 2D arrays are used when the database table columns contain a 1D data structure, e.g. a vector of size 3.
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2017-04-02T06:25:00Z beach: I am making progress on Second Climacs.  Please don't attempt to build it at this point.  I don't have time to guide people through the dependencies.  I just wanted to show how non-existing symbols and non-existing packages are displayed: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.png
2017-04-02T06:26:06Z beach: And, yes, I know, some people will "never use an editor that runs in the same process as the underlying Common Lisp system", and I probably know all the other objections as well, so spare me.
2017-04-02T06:31:09Z H4ns: do you want indentation critique?  :)
2017-04-02T06:31:16Z H4ns: just kidding.  nice work!
2017-04-02T06:31:36Z beach: Thanks~!
2017-04-02T06:31:41Z beach: It can't indent yet.
2017-04-02T06:31:45Z beach: I did that manually.
2017-04-02T06:32:11Z aeth: Is Cluffer usable yet? It could be useful paired with a text renderer for text embedded in a cl-opengl program.
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2017-04-02T06:42:06Z aeth: Sorry, that was poorly worded. Does the "do not attempt to build it" apply to Cluffer, too?
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2017-04-02T10:50:19Z shka_: hey folks
2017-04-02T10:50:28Z shka_: anybody using eql5 here?
2017-04-02T10:50:39Z shka_: how can i subclass qt class in there?
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2017-04-02T10:55:44Z shka_: i think it is not even possible
2017-04-02T10:56:11Z shka_: but there is qoverride for overriding virtual functions
2017-04-02T10:56:13Z shka_: hmmm
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2017-04-02T10:57:40Z beach: Bicyclidine: Around?
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2017-04-02T11:02:48Z shka_: i have no idea how can i define new slot here
2017-04-02T11:02:54Z shka_: or can i
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2017-04-02T11:09:10Z jackdaniel: shka: ask Polos on mailing list
2017-04-02T11:09:24Z jackdaniel: eql has one
2017-04-02T11:09:37Z shka_: good idea
2017-04-02T11:09:56Z shka_: at this point i'm wondering how the heck common qt does it
2017-04-02T11:09:58Z jackdaniel: orcheck examples, probably its there
2017-04-02T11:10:57Z shka_: i couldn't find it
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2017-04-02T11:13:39Z afidegnum: hello, i understand a bit of macros but can anyone explain (in layman term) when should i use macros or functions?
2017-04-02T11:15:07Z shka_: afidegnum: use macros when you need to introduce syntax abstraction that cannot be added with functions
2017-04-02T11:15:43Z shka_: that rule works rather well
2017-04-02T11:16:17Z jackdaniel: afidegnum: macros help you to build up syntax. always use functions, and if you find the boilerplate repeating, consider abstracting it with macro
2017-04-02T11:16:20Z afidegnum: explain a bit further pls :)
2017-04-02T11:16:37Z afidegnum: jackdaniel: ok, it's getting clearer
2017-04-02T11:17:11Z afidegnum: but apparently, functions help avoid repetitions right ?
2017-04-02T11:17:42Z jackdaniel: take macro with-open-file
2017-04-02T11:17:44Z afidegnum: could it be an example of a class/functions in other languages ? (Java, Python, C++ etc? )
2017-04-02T11:18:12Z jackdaniel: it opens your file, executesbody in it, and closes it
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2017-04-02T11:19:13Z jackdaniel: you can make it a macro or higher order function accepting thunk with code, which is body
2017-04-02T11:19:31Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-04-02T11:19:57Z jackdaniel: thunk is used only once, and this is frequent pattern, so having macro pays off
2017-04-02T11:20:45Z jackdaniel: langs you mentioned doesnt have macro counterparts
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2017-04-02T11:21:27Z jackdaniel: sorry, im writing from phone, so no good examples to follow :)
2017-04-02T11:22:07Z jackdaniel: you may read "on lisp", it goes into clever macrology in lisp
2017-04-02T11:22:22Z afidegnum: ok, i will be reading it soon,
2017-04-02T11:22:36Z jackdaniel: it's a free book written by Paul Graham
2017-04-02T11:23:10Z shka_: afidegnum: well, i would say that you shouldn't even bother with macros for now
2017-04-02T11:23:22Z jackdaniel: Practical Common Lisp has some good advices too, but macros are just one of many topics there
2017-04-02T11:23:33Z afidegnum: in fact Paul Graham is an Evangelist :) after reading most of his articles, i m motivated to learn lisp :)
2017-04-02T11:23:55Z jackdaniel: you may want to start from pcl chapter for introduction
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2017-04-02T11:24:26Z jackdaniel: he is not interested in lisp anymore I think
2017-04-02T11:24:27Z shka_: ok, i wrote to the mailing list
2017-04-02T11:24:32Z shka_: hopefully they can help me
2017-04-02T11:24:58Z shka_: he is interested in making money :D
2017-04-02T11:25:09Z jackdaniel: shka_: cc me and the answer please
2017-04-02T11:25:47Z afidegnum: i believe lips can provide quick money ;P
2017-04-02T11:25:54Z afidegnum: **Lisp
2017-04-02T11:25:59Z shka_: not really
2017-04-02T11:26:07Z afidegnum: ok>
2017-04-02T11:26:08Z afidegnum: ?
2017-04-02T11:26:34Z afidegnum: shka_: ?
2017-04-02T11:27:05Z jackdaniel: if you have a product, lisp may hrlp you to write it, yes
2017-04-02T11:27:30Z jackdaniel: and its very good language for writing software
2017-04-02T11:27:33Z shka_: either you are working for someone and you do that how they want you to do it, so you are using java/python whatever
2017-04-02T11:27:36Z jackdaniel: it is
2017-04-02T11:27:46Z shka_: or you have a product
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2017-04-02T11:28:31Z shka_: and although list is awesome application language, it is just a tool and in the end does not guarantee success of your product
2017-04-02T11:28:35Z shka_: *lisp
2017-04-02T11:28:50Z afidegnum: yes, i understand,
2017-04-02T11:28:54Z shka_: especially, not a market success
2017-04-02T11:29:03Z afidegnum: i would say it's a good tool for a solo-developer,
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2017-04-02T11:29:22Z afidegnum: or a team who undestands lisp,
2017-04-02T11:29:39Z jackdaniel: there are lisp companies
2017-04-02T11:30:21Z jackdaniel: and trends tend to change, ten years ago python was used by enthusiasts
2017-04-02T11:30:32Z shka_: in the end you often need libs to make your application with limited budget, and CL community is still catching up with Python and Rubyt
2017-04-02T11:30:47Z shka_: but worry not, we are closing distance
2017-04-02T11:31:27Z shka_: in few areas CL tooling is already superior to any other dynamic language
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2017-04-02T11:32:21Z shka_: so i'm staying optimistic :-)
2017-04-02T11:32:26Z jackdaniel: shka_: libs argument isnt very good, cl may use foreign libs
2017-04-02T11:32:40Z jackdaniel: and even integrate with python
2017-04-02T11:33:13Z shka_: sure, but quality bindings still helps
2017-04-02T11:33:19Z jackdaniel: im loosing connection frequently, so see you later
2017-04-02T11:33:26Z shka_: take care!
2017-04-02T11:33:58Z afidegnum: this leads me to a second question, i forgot the link again, but it was about writing a database engine which seems kind of difficult
2017-04-02T11:34:22Z afidegnum: because CL and Scheme reads data through out which is very slow,
2017-04-02T11:34:28Z afidegnum: is there any implementation of this?
2017-04-02T11:34:43Z jackdaniel: see postmodern lib
2017-04-02T11:34:53Z jackdaniel: for postgres
2017-04-02T11:35:26Z jackdaniel: not much gain for reinventing the wheel with limited resources
2017-04-02T11:37:08Z afidegnum: supposed i want my own db engine, i.e nosql db,
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2017-04-02T11:40:11Z afidegnum: and secondly, when do we use hash-tables, vectors, arrays and lists ?
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2017-04-02T11:48:15Z shka_: afidegnum: you don't want to implement db engine
2017-04-02T11:48:23Z shka_: it is very, very hard
2017-04-02T11:49:19Z afidegnum: :) i m not thinking about it yet,
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2017-04-02T11:50:22Z shka_: afidegnum: hash-table = dictionary, vector = mutable sequence, array = like vector but perhaps more dimensions, list = non mutable sequence or tree (you can mutate it, just please don't do it)
2017-04-02T11:51:01Z shka_: in nutshell
2017-04-02T11:51:16Z shka_: ok guys, gonna read some book and enjoy sun
2017-04-02T11:51:19Z shka_: take care!
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2017-04-02T11:56:19Z afidegnum: :)
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2017-04-02T12:55:42Z phoe: On my way to the ELS.
2017-04-02T12:56:29Z pjb: Have fun!
2017-04-02T12:57:00Z pjb: Cats are gone, let's us remaining rats have fun! :-)
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2017-04-02T12:57:49Z phoe: :P
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2017-04-02T15:11:03Z drmeister: Hey lispers - I'm using quicklisp to load cl-jupyter and it's compiling a bunch of uiop packages...
2017-04-02T15:11:06Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lzUGuOG3/
2017-04-02T15:11:20Z drmeister: Why?   ASDF3.2 is loaded and it provides uiop - doesn't it?
2017-04-02T15:12:38Z drmeister: Is there another, more comprehensive uiop system available through quicklisp?   Are the package names distinct somehow?   I'll dig around in a bit when it's finished compiling.
2017-04-02T15:12:47Z drmeister: Gotta speed up the Clasp/Cleavir compiler (sigh)
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2017-04-02T15:58:45Z shrdlu68: Good evening!
2017-04-02T16:02:56Z shaftoe: evening
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2017-04-02T16:20:43Z shrdlu68: shaftoe: Bobby Shaftoe from Cryptonomicon?
2017-04-02T16:21:36Z jackdaniel: aadf has uiop bundled, but the latter is a standalone library
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2017-04-02T16:22:04Z jackdaniel: bundled asdf may have older version for instance
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2017-04-02T16:45:56Z nyef: ... I'm unpacking a USB-to-hard-drive adaptor, and it includes a fairly short cable, one end of which is labeled "SATA", and the other end of which is labeled "Serial ATA". WTF?
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2017-04-02T16:54:31Z beach: Hello nyef.
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2017-04-02T17:10:28Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2017-04-02T17:49:36Z flip214: nyef: no other black box that has an USB and a SATA connector in there?
2017-04-02T17:49:51Z flip214: nyef: have an EAN or product name?
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2017-04-02T17:54:16Z flip214: I sometimes need a way to pause an lparallel thread, and to wake it up later again. the easiest way is an lparallel queue - the waiting thread registers a queue somewhere, and pops a value.
2017-04-02T17:54:24Z flip214: to wake up, another thread can push onto the queue.
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2017-04-02T17:54:52Z flip214: is there something more basic in lparallel? a simple semaphore? I didn't find anything that's exported.
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2017-04-02T18:03:24Z nyef: flip214: Oh, the overall setup makes sense and even works, but why on earth is it a "SATA to Serial ATA cable"? The Serial ATA end has a little metal clip to keep it in place, while the SATA end does not, but still... Why are they marked differently?
2017-04-02T18:03:37Z drmeister: Hi beach - are you in Brussels yet?
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2017-04-02T18:10:58Z flip214: nyef: one end has a grounded shield?  Don't know.
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2017-04-02T18:37:25Z drmeister: I'm running into a nasty asdf version problem.
2017-04-02T18:37:51Z drmeister: Can I verify that I have ASDF3.2 using:     grep "3.2" asdf/upgrade.lisp  --> upgrade.lisp:         (asdf-version "3.2.0.1")
2017-04-02T18:38:24Z drmeister: Because somehow after spending two hours building clasp in a docker container, the zombie asdf3.1 came back to life.
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2017-04-02T20:25:14Z pillton: Are there any (non portable) hooks to COMPILE which you to insert top level forms?
2017-04-02T20:25:42Z pillton: I have a compiler macro which modifies the global environment and I'd like these changes to be remade when reading a FASL.
2017-04-02T20:26:42Z nyef: pillton: Compiler macros are not required to be expanded at all, and macros generally should not have side-effects. You are probably doing something wrong.
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2017-04-02T20:27:19Z pillton: It certainly feels like it, but the alternatives suck.
2017-04-02T20:28:32Z nyef: The problem being, what you've already come up with also seems to suck.
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2017-04-02T20:33:19Z pillton: I'm trying to avoid having to do stuff like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343288
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2017-04-02T20:35:18Z nyef: I can see where that would be painful as a repeated pattern.
2017-04-02T20:36:41Z nyef: So, your compiler-macro is... somehow doing a function definition by calling COMPILE or EVAL within itself?
2017-04-02T20:37:19Z pillton: Yeah.
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2017-04-02T20:38:16Z pillton: The only other option I can think of is (require-specialization something-that-uses-axpby) and it can do all of the instantiations.
2017-04-02T20:38:27Z nyef: Can you use LOAD-TIME-VALUE in the expansion to intern a suitable function in a registry of such functions at load-time?
2017-04-02T20:40:04Z nyef: And, optionally, have a way to read out the contents of that registry in order to pre-generate its contents so that you don't have to do the compilation at load-time, merely the lookup?
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2017-04-02T20:42:43Z pillton: I had thought of that too.
2017-04-02T20:43:00Z pillton: I hadn't thought of LOAD-TIME-VALUE though. I will investigate that.
2017-04-02T20:44:01Z pillton: Cheers.
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2017-04-02T20:46:14Z nyef: Good luck. (-:
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2017-04-02T21:59:38Z varjag: slyrus: i have a couple test cases for cached-source-p
2017-04-02T21:59:55Z varjag: but can't push the repo
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2017-04-03T00:40:26Z aeth: How many bits added to 64-bit would be useful for type information on a CPU with 64-bit fixnums? 4? 8?
2017-04-03T00:44:19Z pjb: Any number.
2017-04-03T00:44:40Z Josh_2: 7
2017-04-03T00:44:47Z pjb: The choice is more a hardware question.
2017-04-03T00:46:51Z pjb: You could count the predefined standard CL types, but you may want to encode also user defined classes (and structures). cf. eg. http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2017-04-03T00:47:21Z pjb: So if you added a 16-bit type tag, it could be used profitably.
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2017-04-03T00:53:26Z p_l: aeth: well... how do you define "64bit fixnum"? what is the wordsize of the cpu? address size? etc.
2017-04-03T00:54:05Z p_l: will the cpu arch override tagging assumptions of today? (aka "beware MacOS classic 24bit addressing")
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2017-04-03T00:57:04Z aeth: p_l: I suppose one way to do it is to take a 128-bit CPU. Then you have a whole 64-bits for types.
2017-04-03T00:57:28Z p_l: aeth: only if for some insane reason you need all 64bit for untagged part
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2017-04-03T00:59:56Z aeth: p_l: Actually... would this work? http://www.lowrisc.org/docs/tagged-memory-v0.1/
2017-04-03T01:00:17Z aeth: 4-bit tags with every 64-bits...
2017-04-03T01:00:25Z aeth: And that's hardware that should be shipping "soon"
2017-04-03T01:00:54Z p_l: aeth: if you define "soon" as "decade"
2017-04-03T01:01:08Z aeth: It's supposed to come out this year as of last year, but I think it got delayed
2017-04-03T01:01:09Z p_l: also, it's essentially a flexibler version of the BIBOP scheme
2017-04-03T01:01:27Z p_l: aeth: there's "samples available" and "can actually be considered competetive"
2017-04-03T01:03:21Z p_l: also, the site talks about what is barely above having a "GDB simulator target". Good for verifying assumptions in actual silicon, but I don't think it would work for much else
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2017-04-03T01:57:24Z nyef: aeth: The minimum number of "extra" bits required for type information for any given data type is ONE. But that low an overhead means that the remaining type tags have to be longer.
2017-04-03T02:00:07Z nyef: aeth: And this is demonstrated with SBCL, as it has 63-bit fixnums (one tag bit) on 64-bit systems, and has a two-bit "other immediate" tag and three pointer tags, whereas on 32-bit systems it has 30-bit fixnums (two tag bits), a two-bit "other immediate" tag, and three pointer tags.
2017-04-03T02:02:07Z nyef: Now, it tends to be wasteful to have a pointer tag that is narrower than the log_2 of your allocation granularity, except on word-addressed systems (where you tend to high-tag anyway).
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2017-04-03T02:15:47Z aeth: nyef: yes, I am aware of SBCL's 63-bit fixnums
2017-04-03T02:16:54Z aeth: nyef: I was asking about the more general case, since obviously that only works for one (fixnums)
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2017-04-03T02:18:35Z aeth: nyef: I am still planning on attempting to port SBCL to RISC-V whenever lowrisc is out if no one else is porting it. I want to use it as my new IRC-persisting home server (currently I'm on a first gen Raspberry Pi).
2017-04-03T02:19:07Z aeth: And I will take that opportunity to also write a minimal IRC client, perferably on top of an existing IRC library (last time I checked, I think there were two in Quicklisp).
2017-04-03T02:21:16Z aeth: (If SBCL is too hard to port, I'll find *something* to port so I can have an IRC client.)
2017-04-03T02:23:13Z vtomole: Scheme?
2017-04-03T02:23:36Z nyef: aeth: If you need help porting SBCL, you know where to find me.
2017-04-03T02:23:54Z nyef: Failing that, stassats did the Aarch64 port, and he should be easy enough to find.
2017-04-03T02:25:24Z nyef: (Also note that, while the code may have bitrotted, the 63-bit fixnum support was actually set up to allow building with 61-bit and 62-bit fixnums.)
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2017-04-03T02:46:16Z aeth: nyef: I try not to write code that assumes a fixnum is larger than 60-bit.
2017-04-03T02:47:11Z nyef: aeth: I'm trying a 62-bit fixnum build of SBCL right now, after my 61-bit fixnum version failed to build.
2017-04-03T02:47:23Z aeth: Also, I was told about a year ago to not even attempt to start until I have actual RISC-V hardware.
2017-04-03T02:47:31Z aeth: In #sbcl
2017-04-03T02:47:50Z nyef: Yeah, not much point in doing a port where there's no real hardware to test with.
2017-04-03T02:47:53Z aeth: Apparently the QEMU overhead makes things frustratingly slow? I don't know, last time I tried to build it it didn't work.
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2017-04-03T02:49:01Z aeth: (RISC V isn't (or at least wasn't) in core QEMU, it was/is in a custom QEMU.)
2017-04-03T02:49:30Z nyef: ... Does QEMU support hetrogenous multi-CPU systems yet?
2017-04-03T02:50:11Z aeth: I'm not sure what you mean.
2017-04-03T02:51:22Z aeth: This is the QEMU with RISC-V emulation, which is probably the best anyone is going to have unless they have an FPGA. https://github.com/riscv/riscv-qemu/
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2017-04-03T02:52:03Z nyef: Suppose I have a system with multiple CPUs that are not all of the same type, say a 68030 and an Am29000. Could QEMU, in principle, emulate this?
2017-04-03T02:52:09Z Bicyclidine: does risc-v have bitcode available? can you just get an fpga
2017-04-03T02:52:18Z aeth: Bicyclidine: Porting options would be: (1) via QEMU emulation, (2) via FPGA, or (3) waiting for something like lowRISC
2017-04-03T02:52:38Z nyef: (Said concrete example may not be supported, but feel free to substitute other CPU types.)
2017-04-03T02:52:42Z aeth: Bicyclidine: There are several RISC-V CPUs available in FPGA form already.
2017-04-03T02:52:57Z Bicyclidine: so why not get one? they're not that expensive if it's nothing extreme
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2017-04-03T02:53:27Z aeth: I think there are some 32-bit embedded CPUs out already that presumably don't have floating point and probably wouldn't be a good target for CL.
2017-04-03T02:53:46Z Bicyclidine: didn't arm sbcl have soft floats for a while?
2017-04-03T02:53:49Z Bicyclidine: maybe it was ccl
2017-04-03T02:53:55Z nyef points out that the MacIvory is a 32-bit embedded CPU that doesn't have floating point.
2017-04-03T02:54:15Z Bicyclidine: lol
2017-04-03T02:54:16Z nyef: (Okay, there's typically a separate FPU chip on the board, but it's *optional*.)
2017-04-03T02:54:32Z aeth: Iirc, there are three RISC-Vs: 32-bit, 64-bit, and 128-bit. And everything like e.g. floating point is optional, but would probably be in the 64-bit consumer boards.
2017-04-03T02:54:55Z nyef: Now, a 128-bit SBCL port would be amusing for a couple of reasons.
2017-04-03T02:55:06Z aeth: quadruple-float as long-float!
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2017-04-03T02:55:55Z aeth: A port has several issues like e.g. how do you deal with the optional features? (e.g. should you require CPUs with FPUs?) Also, how do you do the 128-bit port if probably only 32-bit and 64-bit will be sold this decade?
2017-04-03T02:56:12Z aeth: I guess a lot of code could be shared between the three, though?
2017-04-03T02:56:49Z Bicyclidine: srsly, if you want to do it and all you have to do is load it onto an fpga that seems quite reasonable to me
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2017-04-03T02:57:04Z Bicyclidine: hopefully someone else has written hardware for drawing on screen and such, of course
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2017-04-03T02:57:37Z aeth: Bicyclidine: lowRISC afaik isn't shipping with a GPU for gen 1 because there's no FOSH (the hardware equivalent of FOSS?) GPU that's good enough.
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2017-04-03T02:58:00Z nyef: So, SBCL on x86-64 still builds for 62-bit fixnums, but not 61-bit fixnums. /-:
2017-04-03T02:58:18Z Bicyclidine: not a GPU, just something for text at least
2017-04-03T02:58:48Z Bicyclidine: i've done a VGA draw-er thing myself, it's not too bad, and then you hook that into some virtual memory region or whatever the fuck
2017-04-03T02:58:51Z Bicyclidine: maybe it's worse for DVI
2017-04-03T02:59:07Z nyef: Eh, a framebuffer is a framebuffer is a framebuffer, surely?
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2017-04-03T02:59:15Z Bicyclidine: pretty much
2017-04-03T02:59:22Z nyef: Modulo crazy stuff like tiled memory, but still...
2017-04-03T02:59:42Z Bicyclidine: maybe dvi is easier in not having to do weird clock things as much
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2017-04-03T03:00:58Z krwq: is it possible (easily) to create a symbol macrolet in such a way that setf will write to one place but reading will be from another place?
2017-04-03T03:01:21Z Bicyclidine: doubt it. what do you have in mind?
2017-04-03T03:01:47Z nyef: Yes.
2017-04-03T03:01:53Z nyef: Sortof.
2017-04-03T03:01:57Z aeth: nyef: what are your reasons for an amusing 128-bit port?
2017-04-03T03:02:53Z krwq: Bicyclidine: actually when i think of it right now that is a bad idea
2017-04-03T03:03:16Z Bicyclidine: problems, being solved
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2017-04-03T03:04:00Z nyef: aeth: src/compiler/generic/genesis, line 165: ";; hopefully nobody ever wants a 128-bit SBCL..."
2017-04-03T03:05:14Z aeth: https://riscv.org/specifications/
2017-04-03T03:08:02Z aeth: It doesn't look like the 128-bit version is final, yet
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2017-04-03T03:08:43Z aeth: "We have not frozen the RV128 spec at this time, as there might be need to evolve the design based on an actual usage of 128-bit address spaces." - page 105
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2017-04-03T03:13:47Z aeth: It doesn't look like that's required for quadruple-float, though.
2017-04-03T03:15:03Z nyef: Oh, neat. Someone cleaned up my mess with debugging indirect lambda vars. I wonder who and when?
2017-04-03T03:17:04Z nyef: ... And I think I just found the reason why my 61-bit-fixnum build didn't work.
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2017-04-03T03:19:00Z krwq: does anyone know if adjust-array allocates on sbcl when you set it to the same size and element-type and change only fill pointer?
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2017-04-03T03:41:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-03T03:42:10Z aeth: krwq: It shouldn't afaik, because that's the difference between e.g. vector-push and vector-push-extend.
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2017-04-03T03:43:59Z aeth: krwq: oh no wait, nevermind
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2017-04-03T03:45:59Z aeth: krwq: just setf fill-pointer
2017-04-03T03:46:08Z aeth: krwq: e.g. (let ((foo (make-array 42 :fill-pointer 0))) (setf (fill-pointer foo) 32) foo)
2017-04-03T03:46:10Z nyef: krwq: Are you *adding* a fill-pointer, or are you merely going the long way around to avoid (setf fill-pointer)?
2017-04-03T03:47:06Z krwq: aeth: nyef: thanks! setf fill-pointer was what i wanted
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2017-04-03T03:51:29Z krwq: btw how do you properly declare type for array declared like: (make-array +arr-size+ :element-type 'character :fill-pointer 0 :adjustable t) - currently i get compile error that type is ambigious when calling length - i tried doing (declare (type (arr vector)))
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2017-04-03T03:52:02Z krwq: wait
2017-04-03T03:52:06Z krwq: that's not the error
2017-04-03T03:52:33Z krwq: ; due to type uncertainty:
2017-04-03T03:52:33Z krwq: ;   The first argument is a sequence, not a vector.
2017-04-03T03:54:18Z nyef: clhs type
2017-04-03T03:54:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_type.htm
2017-04-03T03:54:37Z nyef: krwq: I'm fairly sure that that will explain where you went wrong.
2017-04-03T03:54:47Z aeth: Is there a way to turn this into a setf? https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/c6a4830f36894c21fc507f14299ae326230ee8cd/util/util.lisp#L55-63
2017-04-03T03:55:49Z aeth: e.g. (set-array-row some-array some-row-number (0 1 2 3 4 5)) changed to (setf (array-row some-array some-row-number) (values 0 1 2 3 4 5)) or something similar
2017-04-03T03:56:09Z nyef: aeth: Yes!
2017-04-03T03:56:15Z nyef: clhs define-setf-expansion
2017-04-03T03:56:15Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for define-setf-expansion.
2017-04-03T03:56:17Z nyef: Hrm.
2017-04-03T03:56:21Z aeth: I only know how to do defun (setf) but it seems more advanced than that
2017-04-03T03:56:22Z nyef: clhs define-setf-expander
2017-04-03T03:56:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm
2017-04-03T03:58:34Z aeth: I guess I'd also have to define an array-row, which is possibly harder because I wouldn't be able to rely on the length of the inputs
2017-04-03T03:58:44Z aeth: (I wouldn't have to, but it would help for symmetry)
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2017-04-03T03:59:16Z aeth: i.e. I don't care if the row is 10 long and you only feed in 4 because it'll just set the first four... and if you feed in 20, the CL can bounds check for me
2017-04-03T03:59:48Z nyef: Aww... not going to set the last six to NIL?
2017-04-03T04:00:31Z aeth: The arrays will probably be numbers or characters
2017-04-03T04:01:57Z aeth: Hmm... Is printing of arrays implementation-specific? I'm a bit disappointed that SBCL doesn't print it like #2A("^@^@^@^@^@^@^@..." ...) when it's character
2017-04-03T04:02:07Z aeth: e.g. (type-of (make-array '(4 100) :element-type 'character))
2017-04-03T04:02:32Z White_Flame: #A formatting is part of the spec, so it'd be a bit breaky to extend that syntax
2017-04-03T04:02:38Z aeth: ah, that's unfortunate
2017-04-03T04:03:01Z White_Flame: of course, print-object is extensible
2017-04-03T04:03:02Z aeth: I'm using 2D array rows like database table columns.
2017-04-03T04:03:26Z aeth: It's funny/sad when I get a type error, and it spams 1500 or so lines, whatever the limit is.
2017-04-03T04:03:35Z aeth: And I never find out what type it was expecting!
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2017-04-03T05:19:01Z krwq: could someone help me improve/optimize http://ideone.com/0i68bt ? Currently this can be at least 20 times faster comparing to the best solution (problem defined here: http://www.spoj.com/problems/PALIN/)
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2017-04-03T05:26:14Z phoe: clhs adjoin
2017-04-03T05:26:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjoin.htm
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2017-04-03T05:26:28Z loorke: Guys, which one should I learn first -- Haskell or Scheme  (Racket)?
2017-04-03T05:27:06Z pillton: This channel is for users of common lisp so we would say neither.
2017-04-03T05:27:47Z loke: (let ((x (princ-to-string N))) (equal x (reverse x)))
2017-04-03T05:28:02Z antoszka: loorke: But given the two, I'd say do both in parallel.
2017-04-03T05:28:10Z antoszka: loke: And learn Common Lisp first.
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2017-04-03T05:28:34Z loke: antoszka: Sorry
2017-04-03T05:28:43Z antoszka: erm, loorke ↑
2017-04-03T05:28:44Z loke: I didn't read the question properly :-)
2017-04-03T05:28:45Z antoszka: :)
2017-04-03T05:28:58Z antoszka: Morning tabfail.
2017-04-03T05:29:02Z antoszka: Pre-coffee.
2017-04-03T05:29:58Z loke: Anyway, now that I read the question, the solution is obvious.
2017-04-03T05:30:08Z krwq: loke + antoszka's combo made me quite laugh
2017-04-03T05:30:22Z krwq: loke: is there an easier solution?
2017-04-03T05:30:37Z loke: krwq: I haven't seen any solution. I just thought of my own
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2017-04-03T05:30:50Z krwq: loke: try it first, i can send you test cases
2017-04-03T05:31:00Z loke: krwq: Sure.
2017-04-03T05:32:25Z krwq: window with rcirc before someone responds (lol)
2017-04-03T05:32:38Z krwq: nvm
2017-04-03T05:32:41Z krwq: wrong window
2017-04-03T05:32:46Z antoszka: krwq: :))
2017-04-03T05:33:08Z antoszka: I think we should all have coffee urgently.
2017-04-03T05:33:15Z krwq: lol
2017-04-03T05:33:48Z antoszka: Wonder if my Brussells hotel stay includes breakfast. Don't even know what I actually booked.
2017-04-03T05:34:03Z krwq: anyways loke, try cases like: 0, 1, 4443, 4444, 4445,
2017-04-03T05:34:20Z krwq: i meant 9 not 1
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2017-04-03T05:35:14Z krwq: brussel's cheap so whatever :P
2017-04-03T05:36:18Z antoszka: I suppose it's reasonable.
2017-04-03T05:36:58Z krwq: are you gonna be there for the first time? you should try chocale if so
2017-04-03T05:37:03Z krwq: and beer
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2017-04-03T05:37:51Z antoszka: ack
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2017-04-03T05:48:43Z loke: krwq: OK, I have a solution.
2017-04-03T05:49:13Z krwq: loke: what's your time?
2017-04-03T05:49:28Z loke: Don't know. Never tested it
2017-04-03T05:49:32Z loke: How do you want me to test it?
2017-04-03T05:49:40Z krwq: loke: submit it on spoj and it will tell you
2017-04-03T05:49:45Z loke: ok
2017-04-03T05:49:46Z loke: Ok then
2017-04-03T05:49:48Z loke: let me see
2017-04-03T05:50:02Z loke: Do I read from stdin and write to stdout?
2017-04-03T05:50:07Z krwq: loke: and it will check it so that i can tell you're not cheating :D
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2017-04-03T05:54:48Z loke: OK, time is 0.0
2017-04-03T05:55:09Z loke: So yeah, not that hard
2017-04-03T05:55:16Z loke: Oh wait
2017-04-03T05:55:17Z krwq: loke: you forgot about eof
2017-04-03T05:55:19Z loke: Ooopssssss
2017-04-03T05:55:24Z krwq: im guessing
2017-04-03T05:55:29Z loke: EOF?
2017-04-03T05:55:44Z krwq: there might not be \n after last number
2017-04-03T05:55:52Z krwq: not sure how you're reading
2017-04-03T05:56:00Z loke: This is my main loop, I do have EOF
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2017-04-03T05:56:00Z loke: (loop repeat (read) do (format t "~a~%" (solve (read))))
2017-04-03T05:56:21Z krwq: loke: you got 0.0 because you got non zero exit code
2017-04-03T05:56:31Z krwq: meaning it likely crashed
2017-04-03T05:57:17Z loke: Hah. yes
2017-04-03T05:57:20Z loke: Silly me
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2017-04-03T05:59:21Z krwq: the best time so far on sbcl is 0.11 http://www.spoj.com/ranks/PALIN/lang=LISP%20sbcl
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2017-04-03T06:11:20Z biax: i have a client who wants some certain ?scripts? or addon written for autocad, which i believe uses lisp, anybody interested in doing it?
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2017-04-03T06:13:33Z Bicyclidine: this channel is for common lisp. i think autocad uses some different, proprietary thing
2017-04-03T06:14:20Z loke: Hmm
2017-04-03T06:14:23Z loke: My solution is 0.10
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2017-04-03T06:15:01Z krwq: NZEC doesn't count
2017-04-03T06:17:03Z loke: what is that?
2017-04-03T06:17:23Z krwq: Non-Zero Exit Code
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2017-04-03T06:17:40Z krwq: click ideone button under your status
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2017-04-03T06:17:48Z loke: oh
2017-04-03T06:17:50Z krwq: and then submit with some test data
2017-04-03T06:17:55Z loke: I see
2017-04-03T06:18:17Z krwq: that should catch find most of the common errors
2017-04-03T06:19:20Z loke: that button doesn't do anything for me
2017-04-03T06:19:23Z loke: screw this site
2017-04-03T06:20:37Z krwq: ok :P check my code for reading input
2017-04-03T06:21:01Z loke: I optimised my function to add 1 to a number represented as a string.
2017-04-03T06:21:10Z loke: That was a lot of code to gain a little speed
2017-04-03T06:21:21Z loke: Now I realise that I do several other useless sting copying
2017-04-03T06:22:15Z loke: So even if I manage to convince this site to accept my code, I'd need to spend more time minimising copying
2017-04-03T06:22:27Z loke: anyway, where can I see your code?
2017-04-03T06:22:37Z krwq: http://ideone.com/0i68bt
2017-04-03T06:22:56Z krwq: you can likely optimize that - i got 1 copy of the string though
2017-04-03T06:23:09Z krwq: (i think so at least)
2017-04-03T06:25:39Z loke: Yeah. That's the best way to do it.
2017-04-03T06:25:48Z loke: I just created a simple solution, it works for my own test data
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2017-04-03T06:26:06Z loke: But if I don't get to see the error messages, how can I debug?
2017-04-03T06:26:13Z krwq: loke: i used to do spoj a lot in the past
2017-04-03T06:26:19Z krwq: you can't :P
2017-04-03T06:26:37Z loke: Well, that sucks and I have no intention of wasting more time on that then
2017-04-03T06:26:40Z krwq: that website has the rule the same way most of the competition does
2017-04-03T06:27:00Z krwq: so usually people paste tricky cases in the comments
2017-04-03T06:27:36Z krwq: i can give you ~20 test cases which should catch all the bugs
2017-04-03T06:27:45Z loke: Nah. I got bored already.
2017-04-03T06:27:48Z loke: Deleted my code.
2017-04-03T06:28:07Z krwq: :D i wonder if i can optimize that code to get less than 0.21
2017-04-03T06:28:07Z loke: I just wanted to test this before lunch.
2017-04-03T06:28:14Z loke: Now I'm way past lunch already. :-)
2017-04-03T06:28:38Z loke: Probbaly. You could always write it in assembler and use SBCL inline assmebly :-)
2017-04-03T06:28:42Z krwq: fair enough :) this website is pretty frustrating and addictive though
2017-04-03T06:29:06Z loke: Anyway off for lunch now. see yoy later
2017-04-03T06:29:08Z krwq: loke: i'm pretty sure some declare's would give it some boost
2017-04-03T06:29:14Z krwq: ok, im going sleep soon
2017-04-03T06:29:39Z krwq: if you you'll be taking a look later let me know if you were able to improve - thanks for taking a look!
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2017-04-03T07:57:08Z splittist: Where's all the ELS chatter?
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2017-04-03T08:23:26Z flip214: splittist: I guess it's audible chatter, but too far away for us to hear
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2017-04-03T09:15:15Z easye: flip214: In Brussels?
2017-04-03T09:18:15Z flip214: no. Still in Austria, if the question is about me ;)
2017-04-03T09:18:17Z flip214: easye: ^^
2017-04-03T09:18:55Z easye: No, I was answering your question as to where the ELS chatter is.
2017-04-03T09:19:14Z easye: (I formed #els2017, but no one seems to be using that)
2017-04-03T09:22:05Z pjb: easye: advertisment!
2017-04-03T09:22:54Z flip214: easye: splittist asked about "where" ;)
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2017-04-03T09:28:59Z Xof: twitter is surprisingly quiet too
2017-04-03T09:29:10Z Xof: clearly the els crowd is too old for social media
2017-04-03T09:29:34Z Xof: in fact surprisingly many people are paying attention to the talk!
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2017-04-03T09:39:29Z flip214: well, H4ns is talking.... what else would you expect?
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2017-04-03T10:40:36Z Xach wish he was there
2017-04-03T10:40:50Z shrdlu68 too
2017-04-03T10:42:15Z loke too
2017-04-03T10:42:26Z loke: Xach: I'm surprised you didn't go.
2017-04-03T10:42:31Z loke: You're not too far away
2017-04-03T10:42:38Z Xach: $ and time this year
2017-04-03T10:42:54Z loke: I have the moneys, but not the time.
2017-04-03T10:43:03Z loke: or rather, I could fine the money
2017-04-03T10:43:07Z loke: find the moneys
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2017-04-03T10:49:46Z Xach: there's money in the banana stand.
2017-04-03T10:50:08Z loke: Hmm... I recall that skit.
2017-04-03T10:50:15Z loke: It was some tv series or something?
2017-04-03T10:50:22Z loke: Or a movie?
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2017-04-03T11:00:31Z luis: Arrested Development, probably.
2017-04-03T11:06:14Z Xach: @snmsts is tweeting a lot about els (i presume)
2017-04-03T11:06:23Z Xach: it is in japanese
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2017-04-03T11:50:17Z afidegnum: tutorial??
2017-04-03T11:50:42Z afidegnum: anyone used ECL to develop android app?
2017-04-03T11:51:54Z antoszka: jackdaniel: ↑
2017-04-03T11:53:56Z afidegnum: hi jackdaniel !
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2017-04-03T12:01:34Z afidegnum: any core documentation or tutorial for simple android app building on ECL ?
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2017-04-03T12:16:12Z pjb: afidegnum: I tried it 18 months ago.  I did compile and install some code on Android.  It should be easier nowadays.  Several applications including Maxima run on ECL/Android.
2017-04-03T12:16:42Z pjb: ie. IIRC, it's now in the main branch.
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2017-04-03T12:22:54Z afidegnum: pjb: i came accross lambdanative too but it has some restrictred documentation, the same as ECL, if i can get hold on how to create windows, buttons, link them to functions, swing in/out windows, i will be very grateful
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2017-04-03T12:41:05Z pjb: afidegnum: all the UI has still to be implemented in Java!
2017-04-03T12:41:26Z pjb: afidegnum: ecl is available thru JNI to Java applications.
2017-04-03T12:42:21Z pjb: afidegnum: if you want to do UI from Lisp, then you will have to implement some kind of RPC (also, UI stuff needs to be done on the main thread, mostly).
2017-04-03T12:42:51Z pjb: (It's the same on iOS with Cocoa, the UI needs to be done on the main thread in Objective-C or Swift).
2017-04-03T12:46:13Z afidegnum: pjb: have you gave a tried to lambdanative ?
2017-04-03T12:46:30Z pjb: Nope.
2017-04-03T12:46:52Z pjb: Ah, but it's not Common Lisp.  This is why.
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2017-04-03T12:47:45Z pjb: If you're serious about mobile app development in CL, have a look at MoCL from wukix.com
2017-04-03T12:47:54Z pjb: It's not perfect, but it's better than clicc.
2017-04-03T12:48:59Z pjb: If you're cheap, you can contribute to clicc.  I've started a project to improve clicc to work on iOS. https://gitlab.com/informatimago/clicc
2017-04-03T12:50:09Z afidegnum: lambdanative is scheme derived,
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2017-04-03T12:55:56Z phoe: Woah
2017-04-03T12:56:04Z phoe: Just minor screwups during my talk
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2017-04-03T12:56:59Z phoe: I'm satisfied.
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2017-04-03T12:59:02Z jackdaniel: afidegnum: ecl works fine with android with ndk
2017-04-03T12:59:18Z jackdaniel: there is no official jni integration yet, you may try with cl+j though
2017-04-03T12:59:28Z jackdaniel: (haven't tried it so far)
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2017-04-03T13:03:14Z afidegnum: jackdaniel: i m looking for a way to code everything in CL
2017-04-03T13:03:34Z afidegnum: typical use-case is python-kivy
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2017-04-03T13:20:54Z pjb: afidegnum: to code the UI in CL, you will have to use a "framework" or library providing you with UI primitives from lisp.
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2017-04-03T13:23:29Z afidegnum: pjb: yes, i believe that's what's lacking
2017-04-03T13:23:54Z pjb: I have an internal project: Listeria is a lisp and java library implementing a RPC, allowing a lisp process to send messages to java objects.
2017-04-03T13:23:54Z pjb: The communication is implemented thru streams on both sides, which can be backed by sockets or pipes.
2017-04-03T13:23:54Z pjb: Requests are sent as s-expressions, representing embedded compound java experssions (restricted to instance construction, and message sending), which are interpreted by the java process.
2017-04-03T13:23:54Z pjb:  
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2017-04-03T13:25:14Z pjb: For iOS it's easier since you can easily define a FFI to Objective-C run-time, and from there, add a layer such as Objective-CL.
2017-04-03T13:25:34Z pjb: The only difficulty, is to run UI things on the main thread when you use FFI.
2017-04-03T13:25:48Z pjb: This part is easier with a RPC using a server loop on the main thread.
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2017-04-03T13:29:18Z afidegnum: what if we all contribute to build something standard like that?
2017-04-03T13:29:28Z afidegnum: that could also be a part of my learning project :)
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2017-04-03T13:33:47Z flip214: phoe: in case you've got a TODO for CLUS, please consider adding these data points later on (like the CDRs?)
2017-04-03T13:33:50Z flip214: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3092246632585768@naggum.no.html
2017-04-03T13:33:55Z flip214:  (defun stream ...
2017-04-03T13:34:04Z flip214: and http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3092246640739854@naggum.no.html
2017-04-03T13:34:08Z flip214: (defun boolean ...
2017-04-03T13:36:57Z Bicyclidine: conditions could use that too. probably any designator really.
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2017-04-03T13:44:43Z pjb: afidegnum: do you target only Android or both Android and iOS?
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2017-04-03T13:45:56Z pjb: afidegnum: also, have a look at pgl.  http://cliki.net/pgl
2017-04-03T13:46:35Z pjb: This doesn't run on Android, but it could be ported perhaps easily since the pgl backend is written in Java?
2017-04-03T13:48:14Z pjb: In any case it's a design choice: either provide a native API with a way to send native messages to native UI objects (therefore you still have to implement 2 different UI in lisps, for Android and for iOS), or define a generic UI toolkit, and implement two different backend on the two target platforms.  If you used pgl, then you could even run the same lisp program on desktop and mobile.
2017-04-03T13:48:46Z pjb: The later has the inconvenient of not providing a very good native look-and-feel. But for some class of applications it's not a problem.
2017-04-03T13:50:05Z pjb: afidegnum: this is a difficult problem actually, that existed since the advent of GUIs, and that nobody really solved satisfactorily.
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2017-04-03T13:50:36Z pjb: A more serious CL solution would use CLIM (instead of PGL).  Then you'd implement McCLIM backends on Android and on iOS.
2017-04-03T13:51:41Z pjb: There are a lot of possible design. So the question is what are the use cases?
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2017-04-03T13:59:53Z afidegnum: pjb: well, i m targeting all mobile devices,
2017-04-03T14:00:08Z afidegnum: as well as related IoT devices
2017-04-03T14:01:31Z afidegnum: for the case of kivy, the UI is build and compiled to android or IOS
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2017-04-03T14:03:50Z afidegnum: and since android support OpengL,it's compilation is easier and portable,
2017-04-03T14:05:27Z pjb: And of course, there's also OpenGL, of which I know very little.
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2017-04-03T14:09:35Z afidegnum: well, i will need to read more about it, for android, we have Dalvik VM, which interface with JNI or NDK,
2017-04-03T14:09:57Z afidegnum: if we can have related API for them, i think it will help go a long way
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2017-04-03T14:14:26Z pjb: You could try, as an exercise, to port https://github.com/cs50/spl to Android. Basically, you write in Java an Android application with a single frame and view where you implement those graphic objects, and then open a double-pipe to communicate with the embedded ecl (or a socket to test it with lisp on a different computer), using my pgl.
2017-04-03T14:16:23Z pjb: I guess you could do that in one week.  There are a few delicate parts, (that's the point of the exercise), but otherwise it should be rather easy.
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2017-04-03T14:17:35Z phoe: flip214: file issues at GitHub, as usual
2017-04-03T14:17:45Z phoe: flip214: are you at the ELS?
2017-04-03T14:18:43Z flip214: phoe: no, sadly not... perhaps next year, depending on location and time.
2017-04-03T14:19:20Z flip214: phoe: oh, you already did. #17. thanks a lot
2017-04-03T14:19:26Z flip214: !!
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2017-04-03T14:27:27Z phoe: No problem!
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2017-04-03T14:32:33Z flip214: does somebody what next year's location will be?
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2017-04-03T14:35:59Z phoe: flip214: we'll most likely know tomorrow
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2017-04-03T14:36:09Z phoe: but I may try to spy this information today
2017-04-03T14:36:10Z pjb: Do they do that with dice?
2017-04-03T14:36:13Z malice``: How to muffle warnings at compile time?
2017-04-03T14:36:21Z phoe: malice``: depends on how you compile
2017-04-03T14:36:27Z phoe: how do you do it?
2017-04-03T14:36:27Z malice``: I am writing tests in fiveam
2017-04-03T14:36:31Z pjb: or with darts?
2017-04-03T14:36:40Z malice``: and one of tests ensures that function does not exist(lol)
2017-04-03T14:36:42Z phoe: pjb: they do it with monte carlo
2017-04-03T14:36:47Z malice``: and fiveam compiles tests afaik
2017-04-03T14:36:53Z phoe: they throw sticks until they're sure that the next location will be e.g. Brussels
2017-04-03T14:37:18Z Bicyclidine: you malign the institution. those "sticks" are ritually harvested bones
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2017-04-03T14:38:26Z pjb: phoe: is that a hint? :-)
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2017-04-03T14:39:44Z flip214: pjb: sorry about my german, but also see http://www.kraftfuttermischwerk.de/blogg/motion-tracking-dartscheibe-die-pfeile-immer-im-bullseye-landen-laesst/
2017-04-03T14:40:09Z pjb: Yes, I've heard about it :-)
2017-04-03T14:40:33Z flip214: so it's just a matter of aligning the map correctly before throwing...
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2017-04-03T14:41:31Z easye: ~.
2017-04-03T14:41:40Z phoe: pjb: no, that's the monte carlo method
2017-04-03T14:42:02Z Bicyclidine: the hint is that the next ELS is, in fact, in monte carlo
2017-04-03T14:42:26Z pjb: It's particularly pertinent to a NASA engineer, ensuring that two spaceships meet at the right point. But it may become a great commerical product for pubs and other place where there are drunk players. :-)
2017-04-03T14:42:54Z pjb: phoe: perhaps they'll decide for Monte Carlo? https://www.monaco.edu/
2017-04-03T14:45:08Z phoe: pjb: I don't know
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2017-04-03T16:08:59Z drmeister: How is ELS going - if anyone has a moment could you shoot me a one liner on how did Bicyclidine's talk went?
2017-04-03T16:09:21Z drmeister: I'm dying to learn all about type inference in this Cleavir compiler thingy.
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2017-04-03T17:02:12Z afidegnum: i can't read the previous chat logs
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2017-04-03T17:08:46Z pjb: minion: tell afidegnum about logs
2017-04-03T17:08:46Z minion: afidegnum: please look at logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
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2017-04-03T17:23:44Z learning: is it possible to write a reader macro that splices a list in place (let ((x '(1 2 3)))  (my_func #@x)) where #@ says to splice the list, or is this not possible because x is not defined during "read time"
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2017-04-03T17:25:29Z learning: im learning about reader macros right now solely because i couldnt figure out how to do it with a regular macro
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2017-04-03T17:25:53Z learning: but now im realizing that x might not even be defined, so im learning reader macros and then wont actually be able to do this anyway
2017-04-03T17:26:32Z _death: it's correct that the value of X won't be available during read-time
2017-04-03T17:26:45Z learning: thank you
2017-04-03T17:27:00Z _death: also, a reader macro returns an expansion and can't affect an outer form
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2017-04-03T17:27:24Z _death: are you aware of APPLY?
2017-04-03T17:27:47Z learning: yes but thats counter productive to what im trying to accomplish here
2017-04-03T17:28:10Z learning: because with apply i have to change the function call, whereas i want to change the thing im passing to the function call
2017-04-03T17:28:31Z pjb: learning: it's not possible.
2017-04-03T17:28:42Z pjb: learning: you need to wrap it with an outer reader macro.
2017-04-03T17:29:11Z pjb: (let ((x '(1 2 3)))  `(my_func ,@x)) #| --> (my_func 1 2 3) |#
2017-04-03T17:29:28Z learning: yeah
2017-04-03T17:29:35Z learning: its a shame i cant just type @x
2017-04-03T17:29:56Z pjb: (let ((x '(1 2 3)))  (apply (function my_func) x))
2017-04-03T17:30:40Z learning: but its possible to write something that finds the @ symbol and changes the form that its currently in right?
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2017-04-03T17:31:12Z _death: a code walker
2017-04-03T17:31:17Z learning: right
2017-04-03T17:31:27Z learning: is that easier to do in lisp at least?
2017-04-03T17:31:33Z _death: easier than what
2017-04-03T17:31:44Z learning: then another language
2017-04-03T17:31:47Z learning: the idea sounds hard
2017-04-03T17:31:54Z learning: but i should be able to wrap the whole code in a macro
2017-04-03T17:31:59Z _death: there are portable code walkers already written
2017-04-03T17:32:10Z learning: that walks through the code, finds any #@x and does what i want right
2017-04-03T17:32:11Z _death: but it's a pretty big hammer
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2017-04-03T17:32:20Z pjb: You can put your wrapping reader macro on #\(
2017-04-03T17:32:29Z pjb: Assuming #@x alone is meaningless.
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2017-04-03T17:32:52Z pjb: That would make it mysterious, but it would work.
2017-04-03T17:32:53Z learning: from waht i remember from the docs #@ is reserved
2017-04-03T17:33:00Z learning: or undefined
2017-04-03T17:33:19Z pjb: It's used for Objective-C.
2017-04-03T17:33:28Z pjb: (eg. in ccl, or in Objective-CL).
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2017-04-03T17:33:55Z learning: im using ccl
2017-04-03T17:34:00Z learning: are you saying ccl already defines it?
2017-04-03T17:34:27Z learning: i guess i should stick with: " However, the constructs #!, #?, #[, #], #{, and #} are explicitly reserved for the user and will never be defined by the Common Lisp standard. "
2017-04-03T17:34:41Z learning: is that pretty safe?
2017-04-03T17:35:08Z _death: you can check out named-readtables
2017-04-03T17:36:18Z learning: does that help with the "reader macros have no namespaces" problem?
2017-04-03T17:37:38Z learning: i was reading something about clojure and thats one of the reasons they give for not putting reader macros in clojure
2017-04-03T17:37:54Z pjb: Yes.  Use: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-reader.reader:list-all-macro-characters)
2017-04-03T17:39:23Z pjb: learning: well, with implementations we have nowadays, you can use any unicode characters as reader macro.
2017-04-03T17:39:55Z learning: smile face reader macros!
2017-04-03T17:40:11Z learning: alright, bookmarked this stuff. gonna work on my newb reader macro when i get back from work.  thank you for your help pjb and _death
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2017-04-03T17:41:00Z pjb: '( 》foo  ⦖bar )
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2017-04-03T17:42:56Z borei: hi all
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2017-04-03T17:44:04Z borei: i have question about slot accessors and package.
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2017-04-03T17:44:20Z borei: i defined package and class in it
2017-04-03T17:44:44Z borei: package is exporting class
2017-04-03T17:45:08Z borei: should i export slot accessors for my particular class ?
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2017-04-03T17:49:45Z _death: packages don't export anything but symbols.. if the accessors are meant to serve as a public interface, you should export their names
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2017-04-03T18:00:12Z borei: ok, if for example i have package "linear-algebra" and i have defined class "vector-3d" with slot acceesors x,y,z, then i shoul export "vector-3d" symbol and "x", "y", "z" ?
2017-04-03T18:00:33Z _death: yes
2017-04-03T18:00:38Z borei: ok
2017-04-03T18:02:31Z borei: will it be like ":export :vector-3d :x :y :z" or there is magic short-cut ?
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2017-04-03T18:02:51Z _death: that is the acceptable way
2017-04-03T18:03:08Z borei: what would be true lisp way ?
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2017-04-03T18:03:40Z borei: sorry, probably asking stupid question, im in the begining of the path
2017-04-03T18:04:31Z _death: that is the way that is generally acceptable within the common lisp community
2017-04-03T18:04:57Z borei: perfect
2017-04-03T18:05:09Z borei: thanks for help with understanding :-)
2017-04-03T18:05:39Z _death: there is the export function, and some attempts to bring into lisp something from other languages..
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2017-04-03T18:09:13Z _death: there are also ways to tell emacs do add a name to the export list in the defpackage form
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2017-04-03T18:13:00Z borei: im trying to get basic lisp concepts, well lisp, asdf and cffi. brining emacs to the page right now will explode my brain.
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2017-04-03T18:14:10Z _death: well, I started learning emacs when I started learning Common Lisp.. picking up the brain splatter ain't so bad, just hope I didn't forget some pieces
2017-04-03T18:14:41Z borei: :-)
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2017-04-03T18:27:39Z afidegnum: the log url is not working, what's the correct address?
2017-04-03T18:27:39Z minion: afidegnum, memo from pjb: logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000)
2017-04-03T18:27:54Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-04-03T18:28:13Z afidegnum: minion: were you timing me? :D
2017-04-03T18:28:13Z minion: were you timing me? D: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/were%20you%20timing%20me?%20D?source" contains illegal character #\? at position 50..
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2017-04-03T18:28:54Z _death: heh, nice bug
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2017-04-03T18:29:52Z Guest35897: afidegnum: the url in the topic should work if you check the file rather than the directories
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2017-04-03T18:30:17Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-04-03T18:32:57Z gingerale-: Hey, is there a sensible way to search the logs?
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2017-04-03T18:34:46Z BIcyclidine: download them, grep?
2017-04-03T18:35:05Z gingerale: Was afraid of that.
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2017-04-03T18:35:42Z gingerale: Maybe I can put something together with montezuma. Hmm..
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2017-04-03T19:41:13Z pjb: gingerale: I've tried montezuma on logs.  It seems that a naive use doesn't give good results.
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2017-04-03T20:31:53Z bhyde: you can search the archives at clozure.com with sufficent GoFoo:   https://www.google.com/webhp#q=site:ccl.clozure.com+AND+ccl-logbot+AND+montezuma
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2017-04-03T20:46:40Z gingerale: Oh, good idea. Thanks, bhyde
2017-04-03T20:47:00Z gingerale: I just finished writing a simple web crawler to download all the text log files for me, heh.
2017-04-03T20:47:39Z gingerale: The problem is that I can't remember what I originally needed the logs for.
2017-04-03T20:49:06Z gingerale: Wait, nevermind, remembered. And seems my suspicions were correct, cl-gd uses a badly outdated API.
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2017-04-03T21:16:55Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/638olj/common_lisp_an_elusive_language_the_logotypes/
2017-04-03T21:17:02Z phoe: a tiny bit of shameless self promotion™
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2017-04-03T21:32:31Z shrdlu68: Utter exhaustion. Good night guys, hot night here in Nairobi.
2017-04-03T21:33:59Z gingerale: phoe: These are really cute designs
2017-04-03T21:34:10Z gingerale: Goodnight, shrdlu
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2017-04-03T21:53:10Z phoe: gingerale: thanks
2017-04-03T21:53:37Z phoe: I wonder if I should be putting this on HN as a part of celebrating 60 years of Lisp.
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2017-04-03T22:09:26Z mrottenkolber: woop woop
2017-04-03T22:09:36Z phoe: mrottenkolber: hello
2017-04-03T22:09:49Z phoe: mrottenkolber: I not only just realized that you're sitting next to me
2017-04-03T22:10:00Z phoe: but I also just realized that the IRC you is the real life you
2017-04-03T22:12:15Z mrottenkolber: there can only be one
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2017-04-03T22:31:29Z dxtr: Is there a consensus on if it's better to have (defpackage) in a 'package.lisp' file or the file that contains the code?
2017-04-03T22:31:44Z phoe: dxtr: package.lisp is something I can consider a standard.
2017-04-03T22:31:50Z dxtr: alright
2017-04-03T22:32:05Z White_Flame: you really want to ensure the package is defined before you even start reading a file that uses it
2017-04-03T22:32:06Z mrottenkolber: dxtr: it simplifies some things if you use a central packages.lisp
2017-04-03T22:32:15Z phoe: But then again, for tiny projects, there's little sense in artificially splitting the file.
2017-04-03T22:32:21Z mrottenkolber: +1
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2017-04-03T22:32:26Z dxtr: Alright
2017-04-03T22:32:43Z phoe: but then again and again, Quickproject automatically creates a package.lisp file
2017-04-03T22:32:58Z phoe: and I am so lazy that I leave it like that.
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2017-04-03T22:40:19Z pjb: There even would be argument to asvoid the in-package form in each file, so you may load the same source file in different packages ie. environments.
2017-04-03T22:41:19Z pjb: But in practice, unless you do load the same file in different packages, it's practical to have the in-package form at the beginning of the file, since slime takes it into account.
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2017-04-03T22:52:50Z nyef: dxtr: And the other major approach to packages that hasn't been mentioned yet is "one package per file", where each file starts off with a defpackage and an in-package.
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2017-04-03T23:04:00Z dxtr: nyef: That's what I'm currently doing
2017-04-03T23:04:43Z jasom: dxtr: there is more to "one package per file" than just this though; https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/The-package_002dinferred_002dsystem-extension.html
2017-04-03T23:04:44Z nyef: dxtr: It's what I do. If you're not already using asdf:package-inferred-system, you might have a look at it.
2017-04-03T23:04:58Z nyef: Yeah, that thing, presuming the link is good.
2017-04-03T23:05:13Z jasom: nyef: not really "good", but the one I knew about
2017-04-03T23:06:30Z nyef: Hrm. It should work with a straight-up CL:DEFPACKAGE, not just UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE, but this otherwise seems reasonable.
2017-04-03T23:08:51Z jasom: nyef: uiop:define-package has additional features that can be useful with one-package-per-file e.g. :recycle
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2017-04-03T23:10:59Z nyef: I would presume that there are reasons to use it, just as there were reasons for writing it, but I have yet to explore them: I still just use CL:DEFPACKAGE, as I did when first I started using one-package-per-file style...  Good grief, five years or so ago?
2017-04-03T23:11:08Z jasom: dxtr: to see why you might want package.lisp, consider the case where you have two packages "foo" and "bar".  No module that references symbols in "foo" can be read before the package "foo" is defined.  No module that references symbols in "bar" can be read before "bar" is defined.  This can be problematic in some cases.  The counterargument is that the majority of cases in which it is problematic is bad style.
2017-04-03T23:11:34Z nyef: Seven years ago, almost precisely. Wow.
2017-04-03T23:12:04Z nyef: Late March through early May, 2010.
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2017-04-03T23:16:47Z dxtr: jasom: Right
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2017-04-03T23:17:42Z dxtr: Yeah, I would also consider circular dependencies bad style :)
2017-04-03T23:19:33Z nyef: It's a lot harder to have circular dependencies on a file or package level when your build system disallows them by construction. (-:
2017-04-03T23:23:20Z borei: more questions :-), about generic functions now. I've defined "liner-algebra" package and i defined "vector-3d" class in it. my "linear-algebra" package use "common-lisp" package. now im about to define "+", "-" operation for "vector-3d" objects. i was trying to define generic function "+" in "linear-algebra" package but compiler (sbcl) is saying that there is such in "common-lisp", im trying to define method "+" without generic func
2017-04-03T23:23:21Z borei: but compiler is saying that there will be implicit gen function, and it again conflicts with one from "common-lisp" package.
2017-04-03T23:24:16Z borei: my problem is - how to define "+" (and "-") functions for objects of my class
2017-04-03T23:24:25Z borei: vector-3d in my case
2017-04-03T23:26:00Z nyef: borei: Well, you're either looking for "shadowed" symbols, or to use different names for your functions.
2017-04-03T23:26:02Z pillton: You have to declare the linear-algebra package such that the symbols cl:+ and cl:- aren't imported in to it.
2017-04-03T23:26:36Z nyef: Also, you can avoid SBCL's complaint about an "implicit generic function" by using DEFGENERIC before DEFMETHOD.
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2017-04-03T23:29:54Z borei: nyef, pillton: shadowing "+" and "-" does it mean that for internal linear-algebra math i have to use "cl:+" instead of just "+" - i mean i need to use fully-qualified symbols
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2017-04-03T23:30:42Z pillton: Yes.
2017-04-03T23:31:12Z pillton: I'm not a big fan of people who shadow symbols in the common lisp package.
2017-04-03T23:31:20Z pillton: They get added to a .org file. :)
2017-04-03T23:32:01Z borei: is there another option ?
2017-04-03T23:32:26Z schoppenhauer: hi. does anybody know what happened to https://www.common-lisp.net/project/movitz/ ?
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2017-04-03T23:32:50Z nyef: schoppenhauer: "happened to" in what sense?
2017-04-03T23:32:57Z schoppenhauer: nyef: all the links are dead
2017-04-03T23:33:03Z borei: instead of shadowing "+" from common-lisp ?
2017-04-03T23:33:49Z nyef: schoppenhauer: Not all of them, but I'd imagine that they got killed by a complete rebuild of the common-lisp.net infrastructure or two in the past nine years.
2017-04-03T23:34:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/movitz
2017-04-03T23:34:12Z schoppenhauer: nyef: anyway, I cannot find any file of this project anymore
2017-04-03T23:34:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: schoppenhauer: you should find the source there
2017-04-03T23:34:34Z schoppenhauer: fiddlerwoaroof: thx
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2017-04-03T23:35:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think there's also a way to find the mailing lists, but I'm not sure
2017-04-03T23:35:09Z nyef: schoppenhauer: You might also be interested in Mezzano, if you haven't found it already.
2017-04-03T23:35:23Z pillton: borei: Well, I personally use m+ and m- and provide destructive versions too.
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2017-04-03T23:36:11Z borei: what is "destructive" version ?
2017-04-03T23:36:22Z schoppenhauer: nyef: I know of mezzano
2017-04-03T23:36:23Z schoppenhauer: thx
2017-04-03T23:36:58Z pillton: borei: Instead of returning a new vector containing the result, one of the input vectors is overwritten with the result.
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2017-04-03T23:37:55Z borei: sort of "+=" ?
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2017-04-03T23:41:19Z pillton: Depending on its definition, I guess so.
2017-04-03T23:44:34Z borei: hmm, there is one more related question, let say i shadowed "cl:+" in my linear-algebra package, and about to use linear-algebra in top level package - "top-package", which is using "common-lisp" as well. Now in "top-package" i have "+" from "linear-algebra" and from "common-lisp" - how that situation will be resolved ?
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2017-04-03T23:45:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: borei: you'll get an error and, sometimes, an option to pick which symbol to use
2017-04-03T23:45:07Z _death: :shadowing-import-from
2017-04-03T23:45:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: unless you do that
2017-04-03T23:45:45Z borei: ok.
2017-04-03T23:46:22Z borei: is it correct approach to solve such problem or i have issue with programm design ?
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2017-04-03T23:46:57Z jasom: borei: that's a complicated question.  Do you expect consumers of your library to ever want to add scalar values via the builtin cl functions?
2017-04-03T23:47:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's generally preferable just to difine something like matrix+ matrix-
2017-04-03T23:47:30Z jasom: borei: if you're writing a complete replacement for the cl math stack, then shadowing + and - make sense.
2017-04-03T23:48:17Z _death: in the particular case of + and -, I'd advise against
2017-04-03T23:48:18Z borei: jasom: im not looking to re-write math stack, but i need to extend it with vector opration
2017-04-03T23:48:46Z borei: ... and matric in future
2017-04-03T23:48:49Z borei: matrix
2017-04-03T23:49:24Z jasom: borei: for the particular case of + and - it is probably a bad idea, because the overhad of a generic function call is much greater than the time it takes to do addition and subtraction (particularly when the compiler can determine useful things about the types of the parameters)
2017-04-03T23:49:44Z _death: first, you can't make them generic in a form that makes sense given CL-like expectations.. secondly, the REPL binds them too
2017-04-03T23:50:23Z _death: and symbols like * are used in type specifiers, for example
2017-04-03T23:50:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: borei: you might look at how other libraries do this.
2017-04-03T23:50:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. http://melisgl.github.io/mgl-pax-world/mat-manual.html#toc-12-non-destructive-api
2017-04-03T23:51:14Z _death: (meant to say, * is used in type specifiers, other symbols may be used in other contexts)
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2017-04-03T23:54:15Z jasom: the computable reals library appends a suffix e.g. +r -r sqrt-r
2017-04-03T23:54:23Z jasom: I think a prefix is more common though.
2017-04-03T23:55:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I think a prefix fits better with things like string< char< local-time:timestamp<, etc.
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2017-04-03T23:58:55Z jasom: using a single-letter prefix is fine IMO though, since you still have packages for namespacing, and it's often nice to have more than one operation on a line for mathematical formulae
2017-04-03T23:58:56Z _death: SICP has add/sub/div/mul.. though it may be too verbose
2017-04-03T23:59:45Z jasom: I think e.g. (m+ (m* x 2) y) is better than (matrix+ (matrix* x 2) y)
2017-04-03T23:59:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: jasom: yeah.  Also, since it's generally a bad idea to :use packages, you might just use a package name or nickname for the prefix
2017-04-03T23:59:55Z jasom: but that point is definitely arguable
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2017-04-04T00:00:11Z _death: and maybe sum/difference/... would be preferred if you really want to annoy people
2017-04-04T00:00:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: At least, I have a general rule of only :USE-ing alexandria, serapeum and my utility library
2017-04-04T00:00:37Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: Short package names are problematic though because it's a global namespace
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2017-04-04T00:01:46Z pillton: And this is the problem with packages.
2017-04-04T00:01:50Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm a bit more conservative.. :use :cl and my own libraries, rest is imported or qualified
2017-04-04T00:02:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: _death: yeah, I sort of think of alexandria and serapeum as part of the standard library
2017-04-04T00:02:37Z borei: seems like i need to do more programming and come-up with common sense. it was much easier in C++ - just redefine operator.
2017-04-04T00:03:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Mostly because those packages fill in the gaps in the standard pretty nicely
2017-04-04T00:04:20Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: well, I think I started doing that when some library I was using :used alexandria, and alexandria added a name it was already defining.. this led to a bus that's annoying to find.. now, my habit won't solve that, but it will spare users of my library
2017-04-04T00:04:26Z jasom: borei: well addition in C++ is always 2-ary.  That is very much not the case in common lisp.
2017-04-04T00:04:48Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: *bug
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2017-04-04T00:05:26Z jasom: borei: also (IIRC) overloading in C++ is always static dispatch?
2017-04-04T00:05:36Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: or rather, divert the angry mobs to a different library author ;)
2017-04-04T00:05:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-04-04T00:08:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be sort of interesting to have a reader macro for local package nicknames
2017-04-04T00:08:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: (define-package-alias json yason) (json!parse "{\"a\": 2}")
2017-04-04T00:09:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: soemthing like that
2017-04-04T00:09:56Z _death: borei: in Common Lisp, (+) and (*) make sense given the types they can operate on.. are you certain, whatever you'll be returning, that they'll make sense with all your types
2017-04-04T00:11:10Z jasom: _death: for matricies, the unity matrix is dependent on the dimensionality, right?  So there is no good value for (*) to return.
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2017-04-04T00:13:05Z _death: jasom: I suppose if you limit the types you're handling, it may be possible to return a value that can serve as a universal identity value
2017-04-04T00:13:22Z _death: like currently done in CL :)
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2017-04-04T00:15:04Z _death: jasom: but not for matrices, right
2017-04-04T00:15:08Z borei: rereading docs about packages now, seems like it will be ongoing process for next 6 months :-)
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2017-04-04T00:20:37Z jasom: borei: packages in lisp are quite simple; they just define a mapping from strings to symbols.  Most things in lisp (functions, variables &c.) are named by symbols.
2017-04-04T00:21:41Z jasom: borei: when the reader encounters a token that is not a number, it UPCASES it and then looks up the symbol with that name in the current package.
2017-04-04T00:22:27Z jasom: borei: a specific package can be specified with a colon separating the package name and the symbol name; foo:bar is the symbol "BAR" in the package "FOO"
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2017-04-04T00:30:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a good way to distinguish errors raised by string rather than through a particular condition class?
2017-04-04T00:30:28Z nicdev: could someone here help me understand why the code below does not work while if the URL is accessed in the browser with space in the stop value, it works perfectly? http://paste.lisp.org/display/343382#1
2017-04-04T00:31:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: nicdev: you might use ACONS to rebind *text-content-types*
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2017-04-04T00:36:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: That won't solve your problem, it's just cleaner (imo)
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2017-04-04T00:38:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: nicdev: I think there's a double escape problem
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2017-04-04T00:40:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: the space gets encoded as + and then that gets re-encoded as %2b, see the 4th return value of http-request
2017-04-04T00:42:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: nicdev: I would just put the url up to the question mark as the first argument to http-request and then pass the query string elements to the :parameters argument
2017-04-04T00:44:26Z nicdev: fiddlerwoaroof: i have not used :parameters keyword before, let me give it a try
2017-04-04T00:44:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: it just takes an alist of unquoted strings
2017-04-04T00:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: un url-quoted strings, that is.  Seems to work for me
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2017-04-04T01:02:55Z nicdev: fiddlerwoaroof: it worked here also! thank you for the help and i updated to use ACONS on *text-content-types*
2017-04-04T01:05:30Z dxtr: Hmm, how do I use Postmoderns :in?
2017-04-04T01:05:44Z dxtr: I've tried (:in 'foo '(1 2 3)) but that results in an error
2017-04-04T01:06:26Z dxtr: "Value (1 2 3) can not be converted to an SQL literal."
2017-04-04T01:08:26Z dxtr: The documentation doesn't really give any examples
2017-04-04T01:08:27Z _death: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-i#in
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2017-04-04T01:08:58Z dxtr: Oh, awesome
2017-04-04T01:09:10Z dxtr: I saw that site earlier but then I forgot about it :p
2017-04-04T01:09:11Z dxtr: Thanks
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2017-04-04T01:14:40Z _death: it's a bit strange in that if you want a list at runtime you need to put it into a variable or return it from a function
2017-04-04T01:16:55Z _death: (identity '(1 2 3)) or ((lambda () '(1 2 3))) is closest to in-line
2017-04-04T01:18:47Z _death: though that's unlikely to be useful anyway, as you can just use (:set 1 2 3)
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2017-04-04T01:20:18Z daemoz: _death: What is "(:set)"?
2017-04-04T01:21:05Z _death: daemoz: it's part of the s-sql syntax
2017-04-04T01:21:23Z daemoz: Thank you.
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2017-04-04T01:26:02Z dxtr: _death: "Value (:SET 1 2 3) can not be converted to an SQL literal" is that what you mean? :p
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2017-04-04T01:30:01Z _death: dxtr: what is the form you're evaluating
2017-04-04T01:31:56Z dxtr: _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343388
2017-04-04T01:32:32Z _death: should be (:in 'id (:set token-ids))
2017-04-04T01:33:02Z dxtr: hmm,o kay
2017-04-04T01:33:07Z dxtr: Why didn't I try that?
2017-04-04T01:33:17Z _death: see :set sql-op in https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/s-sql.html#syntax
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2017-04-04T01:37:30Z dxtr: Right
2017-04-04T01:37:32Z _death: btw one could also define (defmacro my-quote (object) `(quote ,object)) and use (:set (my-quote (1 2 3))) .. s-sql simply special-cases quote.. another weirdness
2017-04-04T01:37:32Z dxtr: Thanks!
2017-04-04T01:37:59Z dxtr: Would i be better off with something like cxsql?
2017-04-04T01:38:13Z _death: dxtr: I've no experience with that one
2017-04-04T01:38:20Z dxtr: right
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2017-04-04T01:38:47Z dxtr: Well, thanks again! Better get to bed now
2017-04-04T01:38:49Z dxtr: It's 3:40 am
2017-04-04T01:38:56Z dxtr: Gotta get up at six or so :p
2017-04-04T01:39:02Z _death: dxtr: s-sql has been used for a while by now, so has the advantage of being familiar
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2017-04-04T02:11:38Z emaczen: Whenever I try to evaluate something with SBCL through slime it tells me "piplined request" in the minibuffer -- it never used to do this
2017-04-04T02:12:34Z emaczen: I also see in the *inferior-lisp* buffer when I start SBCL: redefining THREAD-FOR-EVALUATION (#<STRUCTURE-CLASS SWANK::MULTITHREADED-CONNECTION> #<SB-MOP:EQL-SPECIALIZER :FIND-EXISTING>)
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2017-04-04T03:14:24Z borei: hmm, bit confused about nicknames usage. i defined package, and created nicknames for it. trying to access symbols using nickname - getting error that package doesn't exist
2017-04-04T03:16:55Z nyef: ... Isn't there some simple guide to packages out there or something?
2017-04-04T03:17:55Z nyef: Urgh. At least four.
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2017-04-04T03:39:11Z pillton: borei: Perhaps you can get some information from this: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
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2017-04-04T03:39:38Z pillton: It doesn't specifically cover nicknames from what I skim read.
2017-04-04T03:40:14Z nyef: I've skimmed two other tutorials on the first page of google results, to no avail for package nicknames.
2017-04-04T03:40:31Z nyef: I could have _sworn_ there was a better guide out there, but I'm just not finding it.
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2017-04-04T03:40:54Z pillton: borei: If it isn't working with the full package name, then it isn't going to work with the nickname.
2017-04-04T03:41:12Z pillton doesn't know the noun for the full package name.
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2017-04-04T03:45:58Z drmeister: I have created the docker container of my dreams:     drmeister/cando     https://hub.docker.com/r/drmeister/cando/
2017-04-04T03:46:20Z drmeister: It's a containerized Cando that runs within a jupyter notebook.
2017-04-04T03:46:36Z drmeister: All you need is docker and a browser and you can start building molecules.
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2017-04-04T03:50:01Z drmeister: I used high level docker wizardry to build everything in a docker container, pull the install out and the put it back into a leaner container.  It still weighs in 3.4 GB.   Chemistry isn't cheap or easy.
2017-04-04T03:50:59Z drmeister: Next up - jupyter widgets.
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2017-04-04T04:30:03Z pillton: drmeister: Have you used it before?
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2017-04-04T04:32:56Z beach: drmeister: Bike's talk went very well!
2017-04-04T04:33:50Z beach: ... and Good morning everyone!
2017-04-04T04:35:22Z loke: Hello beach!
2017-04-04T04:35:29Z loke: Are the talk recorded?
2017-04-04T04:35:34Z loke: talks
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2017-04-04T04:36:57Z PuercoPop: someone should consider live-tweet-reporting ELS :D
2017-04-04T04:38:07Z beach: Yes, they are recorded.
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2017-04-04T04:40:04Z loke: beach: Cool
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2017-04-04T04:42:10Z beach: loke: You made a mistake by not coming. :)
2017-04-04T04:43:44Z loke: beach: "mistake" assumes that I had a choice.
2017-04-04T04:43:59Z beach: It's all a matter of priorities. :)
2017-04-04T04:44:03Z beach: loke: Or maybe you should create ALS to be held closer to you.
2017-04-04T04:44:56Z beach: Given the record number of paper submissions to ELS, there is room for more Lisp venues.
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2017-04-04T04:47:10Z loke: I fully intend to attend the next one :-)
2017-04-04T04:47:19Z beach: OK.  Good!
2017-04-04T04:47:33Z loke: I fear that most of you guys wouldn't attend anything near me :-(
2017-04-04T04:47:46Z pillton: Loke is going to pay for me to go too.
2017-04-04T04:47:52Z pillton: :)
2017-04-04T04:48:21Z beach: Why not.  There are a significant number of participants that are closer to where you are than to Belgium.
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2017-04-04T04:49:10Z pillton: You have done well beach. A talk on Cleavir and two papers.
2017-04-04T04:49:13Z beach: And, yes, there are people who don't come to ELS and who would be closer to ALS.
2017-04-04T04:49:24Z beach: pillton: Three. :)
2017-04-04T04:49:39Z beach: Well, two + one on SICL.
2017-04-04T04:50:28Z beach: pillton: But yeah, thanks!
2017-04-04T04:50:31Z pillton: Oh. Your name is only mentioned twice on the Programme.
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2017-04-04T04:50:50Z beach: Yes, but Bike has a paper on Cleavir type inference.
2017-04-04T04:55:15Z beach: pillton: Do you see it?
2017-04-04T04:55:30Z pillton: Yeah, but you weren't mentioned as an author.
2017-04-04T04:55:53Z beach: Right.
2017-04-04T04:56:19Z beach: I misunderstood what you said.  You were talking about me as opposed to Cleavir.  Sorry, it's still early in the morning.
2017-04-04T04:56:21Z pillton: A talk on your work is good though which is why I said "A talk on Cleavir and two papers."
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2017-04-04T04:56:37Z beach: Yes, thanks.
2017-04-04T04:59:24Z beach: My paper on incremental parsing was rejected, though.  I think the referees made a big mistake. :)
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2017-04-04T05:00:04Z beach: I am joking, of course.  It was clear from their reports that I was unable to get the message across to the reader.
2017-04-04T05:03:20Z flip214: loke: what's your (approximate) location? Americas?
2017-04-04T05:03:50Z loke: flip214: Singapore
2017-04-04T05:04:35Z loke: N1°2797883E103°8533738
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2017-04-04T05:05:25Z beach: This is for the room where your computer is located?
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2017-04-04T05:06:21Z loke: beach: It's the area where I work :-)
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2017-04-04T05:11:28Z flip214: oh, so asia. thanks. yeah, that's a bit of a distance...
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2017-04-04T05:13:41Z beach: It's a 12 hour flight from Paris.
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2017-04-04T05:14:39Z beach: When I lived in The Land of the Long White Cloud, Singapore was where one had to change flights.  Halfway to Auckland from Paris.
2017-04-04T05:15:04Z pillton: You lived in New Zealand? Cool.
2017-04-04T05:15:10Z beach: A year, yes.
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2017-04-04T05:15:16Z pillton: I like NZ. Great food.
2017-04-04T05:15:45Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-04-04T05:17:00Z pillton: What were you doing there?
2017-04-04T05:17:19Z beach: Sabbatical.
2017-04-04T05:17:48Z beach: One of the great privileges of my job.
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2017-04-04T05:17:54Z loke: flip214: The flight from Singapore to Europe isn't too bad. But if I wanted to go to Canada (which I do, because Whistler), the flight is unbearably long.
2017-04-04T05:18:59Z pillton: One leg or the entire journey?
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2017-04-04T05:19:35Z pillton: Brisbane to Pittsburgh was 30 hours.
2017-04-04T05:19:41Z loke: pillton: There are no direct flights from Singapore to Canada. The entire trip is over 24 hours.
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2017-04-04T05:20:08Z beach: pillton: That's just insane.
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2017-04-04T05:21:19Z loke: Hmm... 17:50 to Vancouver via Hong Kong. Not too bad actually.
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2017-04-04T05:22:03Z pillton: I thought the upper bound on flight time was 15 hours.
2017-04-04T05:22:30Z loke: pillton: It's not direct. That's the entire flight.
2017-04-04T05:22:44Z pillton: Ah ok.
2017-04-04T05:22:49Z loke: But no, there are longer flights. There used to be a Singapore to New York direct flight. That one was 20 hours I think.
2017-04-04T05:24:30Z loke: There is a direct flight Singapore/San Francisco. That one is 14:35 outbound and 17:15 return.
2017-04-04T05:25:10Z flip214: looking at the keyword package I can't help but wonder whether all of the entries are meant to be keywords...
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2017-04-04T05:25:57Z pillton: Some people care and some don't.
2017-04-04T05:25:58Z flip214: :+CODE-POINT-LIMIT+, :<NOT-AVAILABLE>, :*.*.*, :**/, :*OUTER-DELIMITERS*, :=
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2017-04-04T05:27:30Z loke: flip214: the code-point-limit one seems quite weird
2017-04-04T05:27:41Z flip214: pillton: well, my point is that some are likely to be mean in CL or so, so thiese would be bufgs!
2017-04-04T05:28:03Z loke: But it does seem like someone was doing (IN-PACKAGE :KEYWORD) and then started typing stuff.
2017-04-04T05:28:36Z pillton: I use strings for package and symbols inside defpackage.
2017-04-04T05:28:48Z flip214: well, I believe *OUTER-DELIMITERS* to originate from CL-WHO, for example...
2017-04-04T05:29:08Z pillton: I concluded that there was no point to using symbols to accommodate the read-case property.
2017-04-04T05:29:40Z flip214: ah yeah... that might be a possible origin.
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2017-04-04T05:30:15Z loke: When doing that, it's better practice to use #:
2017-04-04T05:30:37Z flip214: :646
2017-04-04T05:31:03Z pillton: I'd say that is short for #o646.
2017-04-04T05:31:29Z pillton: It is a weird mask.
2017-04-04T05:33:03Z flip214: sadly there's no way to find out who's using them...  swank:xref says "NIL" ;/
2017-04-04T05:33:51Z loke: Oh. New QL update
2017-04-04T05:34:14Z flip214: ./cl-unicode-0.1.5/packages.lisp   (:export :+code-point-limit+
2017-04-04T05:35:19Z flip214: yeah, the few things I checked are :export clauses.
2017-04-04T05:35:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: Whistler?
2017-04-04T05:35:36Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Best mountain biking in the world :-)
2017-04-04T05:35:37Z flip214: "so much time^Wspace wasted!"   ;/
2017-04-04T05:36:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Sounds fun.
2017-04-04T05:36:22Z flip214: only on this world, or including Olympus Mons?
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2017-04-04T05:36:31Z flip214: and other locations...
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2017-04-04T05:36:39Z loke: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2BiP1xHblA
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2017-04-04T05:37:52Z learning: i can't believe (defvar  "apple") works lol. might have to start including these in my scratch code.
2017-04-04T05:38:21Z learning: make coding learning examples more fun
2017-04-04T05:39:04Z loke: learning: That symbol is in private-use area, and not defined. I wouldn't recommend that.
2017-04-04T05:39:13Z loke: learning: Real unicode symbols are fine though.
2017-04-04T05:41:34Z learning: what would i need to google to check that in the future
2017-04-04T05:41:57Z loke: learning: Check what?
2017-04-04T05:42:08Z learning: if a symbol is proper unicode
2017-04-04T05:42:14Z White_Flame: how did you enter that symbol?
2017-04-04T05:42:29Z loke: learning: You use your favourite Unicode tool.
2017-04-04T05:42:34Z White_Flame: (I just see a box btw, so I have no idea what the symbol's intent is)
2017-04-04T05:42:39Z learning: im on a mac i typed option+shift+k
2017-04-04T05:42:41Z loke: Emacs has C-u C-x =
2017-04-04T05:42:43Z learning: and assumed it was unicode
2017-04-04T05:43:02Z learning: its just mac's apple icon
2017-04-04T05:43:23Z loke: learning: It's in Unicode, but it's in the private use area. That means that there is no gunaratees what will be displayed (if anything), or how the symbol will be treated.
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2017-04-04T05:43:32Z learning: this is the character white_flame http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kvgbX6oiDyc/TYaljT5PUFI/AAAAAAAAAp8/EzWdEQa2d_k/s1600/SpecialChar.png
2017-04-04T05:44:46Z loke: That symbol displays as a Klingon Empire symbol on most Linux fonts.
2017-04-04T05:44:47Z loke: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/f8ff/index.htm
2017-04-04T05:44:52Z loke: There's the information about it.
2017-04-04T05:44:56Z learning: that's funny
2017-04-04T05:45:15Z White_Flame: learning: what you linked claims it's 0061, but your defvar has character f8ff
2017-04-04T05:45:18Z loke: learning: It's in the primate use area. Fonts and applications can do whatever it wants with it.
2017-04-04T05:45:19Z White_Flame: so those aren't the same thing
2017-04-04T05:45:45Z White_Flame: erm, what loke linked is 0061
2017-04-04T05:45:47Z learning: the screenshot might be out of date or for a different system or something
2017-04-04T05:46:06Z White_Flame: erm, disregard... too many tabs going on ;)
2017-04-04T05:46:30Z learning: lol
2017-04-04T05:46:31Z White_Flame: however, that's a separate font, it's not unicode
2017-04-04T05:47:07Z loke: learning: I think OSX fonts puts the apple logo at U+F8FF. They do it so that they can use it in menus and stuff. You really shouldn't rely ot in for anything unless you are 100% sure it will only be used on OSX, and using default OSX fonts.
2017-04-04T05:47:28Z learning: ye im glad you said something
2017-04-04T05:47:44Z learning: in my head i was thinking "i can't believe apple convinced unicode to include their symbol"
2017-04-04T05:47:49Z loke: However, feel free to use ☃ for example. It's part of standardised Unicode.
2017-04-04T05:48:06Z beach: Nice!
2017-04-04T05:48:17Z loke: Yeah, Unicode never puts corporate symbols in there.
2017-04-04T05:48:39Z learning: definitely not planning on using these in anything besides personal code for fun, BUT if i shared a program with one of my casual friends and it didnt run because of something stupid like this, i would be really confused
2017-04-04T05:48:45Z learning: so im glad you pointed this out to me. thank you.
2017-04-04T05:49:06Z loke: Or you can use ⌘. It's quite associated with the Mac for most people outside of Scandinavia (which is the only area where the symbol is actually used, as far as I know)
2017-04-04T05:49:30Z White_Flame: of course, you could use f8ff as much as you want; it'll be f8ff everywhere, but will print some arbitrary character depending on the current platform
2017-04-04T05:49:46Z learning: it wont break code?
2017-04-04T05:50:15Z White_Flame: why would it?
2017-04-04T05:50:22Z loke: White_Flame: The biggest issue is that the private use characters have character category "other". They might be treated differently depending on implementation.
2017-04-04T05:50:27Z learning: idk because its not assigned
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2017-04-04T05:50:39Z learning: null errors and all that
2017-04-04T05:50:46Z White_Flame: loke: true, I guess it's not 100% guaranteed to be a constituent character
2017-04-04T05:50:49Z loke: learning: It's technically "assigned", in that they are guaranteed to never be assigned by Unicode. :-)
2017-04-04T05:50:51Z learning: but obviously i dont have an understanding of unicode
2017-04-04T05:50:59Z loke: That's why it's part of "private use"
2017-04-04T05:51:13Z learning: hahaha
2017-04-04T05:51:20Z learning: i get exactly what you mean
2017-04-04T05:51:56Z learning: that was funny though, it's assigned in that its guaranteed to not be assigned
2017-04-04T05:52:23Z loke: learning: If you want to learn about private use areas in Unicode: http://www.unicode.org/faq/private_use.html
2017-04-04T05:54:26Z learning: i saw some post where this guy created a visual mapping of how unicode is allocated
2017-04-04T05:54:46Z learning: its crazy how much is allocated just to future proof the thing
2017-04-04T05:55:01Z learning: bunch of unused space
2017-04-04T05:55:36Z learning: " There are three ranges of private-use characters in the standard.... containing 6,400 private-use characters."
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2017-04-04T05:56:24Z loke: Read further... “Altogether, then, there are 137,468 private-use characters in Unicode.”
2017-04-04T05:57:13Z learning: hahaahah
2017-04-04T05:57:21Z learning: as if 6400 was a lot
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2017-04-04T05:59:33Z White_Flame: hmm, this does make a strong case for them being constituents: "In terms of line breaking, case conversions, and other textual processes, private-use characters will typically be treated by the operating system as otherwise undistinguished letters (or ideographs) with no uppercase/lowercase distinctions."
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2017-04-04T05:59:45Z White_Flame: although still, "typically"
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2017-04-04T06:00:30Z loke: White_Flame: I think a person would have to be a huge apple-fan to justify using that character in their symbols :-)
2017-04-04T06:01:10Z loke: White_Flame: But sure, I think it could be reasonably argued that it will work, based on that quite.
2017-04-04T06:01:13Z loke: quote.
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2017-04-04T06:01:46Z loke: Unicode is kinda awesome. It's kinda sucks, but still, awesome.
2017-04-04T06:02:32Z learning: or their on OSX and its the only remotely cool symbol i can type easily!!!
2017-04-04T06:02:43Z learning: how dare you acuse me of being an apple fan!
2017-04-04T06:02:51Z learning: just because i gave them my money!
2017-04-04T06:02:55Z loke: learning: I didn't accuse anyone. :-)
2017-04-04T06:03:17Z learning: you implied loke
2017-04-04T06:03:20Z loke: You were the one reading a negative conotation into it. :-)
2017-04-04T06:03:24Z learning: is this what you do, help people out
2017-04-04T06:03:32Z learning: then accuse them of being corporate shills
2017-04-04T06:03:34Z White_Flame: unicode sucks because it still doesn't have full coverage of PETSCII
2017-04-04T06:03:35Z loke: learning: Yes. That's exactly what I do.
2017-04-04T06:03:39Z learning: this is the last time i ever come to this channel!
2017-04-04T06:03:46Z learning: lel
2017-04-04T06:03:57Z loke: White_Flame: Wait what? Really?
2017-04-04T06:04:02Z loke: You sure?
2017-04-04T06:04:05Z White_Flame: yep
2017-04-04T06:04:25Z loke: PETSCII is very close to the C64 charset, which is the most popular computer ever made. Surely they have a proper mapping?
2017-04-04T06:04:32Z White_Flame: nope
2017-04-04T06:04:41Z White_Flame: (PETSCII _is_ the C64 charset...)
2017-04-04T06:05:07Z White_Flame: (although it's had some revisions over the years, notably adding color codes)
2017-04-04T06:05:23Z learning: petscii has tetris blocks. thats cool
2017-04-04T06:06:20Z loke: OK, what is the justification for Unicode not including it? They can add a frigging aubergine, but not PETSCII?
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2017-04-04T06:07:32Z White_Flame: I don't know.  The fact that they don't include Klingon either is very questionable, as people actually speak it and write literature in it
2017-04-04T06:07:33Z learning: today, an eggplant taught me that unicode has color
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2017-04-04T06:07:42Z White_Flame: (and I say that as very much not a trekkie)
2017-04-04T06:09:09Z White_Flame: but in my 6502 disassembler, I use a rough unicode translation for petscii filenames & basic listings, and full canvas bitmaps for other stuff.  It's really annoying that there isn't coverage
2017-04-04T06:09:20Z learning: do unicode symbols have to appear a particular way
2017-04-04T06:09:24Z White_Flame: no
2017-04-04T06:09:30Z loke: White_Flame: I follow the Unicode mailing list, and Klingon was recently brought up again. It might actually come, eventually. The main issue right now is that the rights owners (CBS?) haven't said anything about copyright
2017-04-04T06:09:51Z White_Flame: learning: they just represent the concept of a character, which a font is free to represent in whatever stylistic graphical presentation it wants
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2017-04-04T06:10:05Z learning: oh
2017-04-04T06:10:08Z learning: right its not a font
2017-04-04T06:10:17Z loke: White_Flame: Now, that's probably a bogus argument since, as you say, there is nothing that sayd exactly how the characters are to be rendererd.
2017-04-04T06:11:25Z White_Flame: yeah, I have no idea what the actual thing is that's feared to be copyrighted.  Probably just the term "Klingon" itself
2017-04-04T06:12:14Z learning: maybe you can get away with it in books because of artistic expression but not with something like unicode
2017-04-04T06:12:17Z loke: White_Flame: There A few months ago, one person from the KLI were arguing about this. He said that he intended to contact CBS about this and then come back.
2017-04-04T06:12:28Z loke: I haven't see anything from him since then, so we'll see I guess.
2017-04-04T06:14:09Z loke: I think I'll post a question to the mailing list about petscii. I just searched the archives and there are exactly two references to it. Once from 2000 and another from 2009.
2017-04-04T06:14:10Z loke: https://www.google.com.sg/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=petscii&btnG=Google+Search&domains=unicode.org&sitesearch=unicode.org&gws_rd=cr&ei=BjnjWNrrF4jXvgSHm7yACQ
2017-04-04T06:14:23Z learning: is there any precedence for including klingon?
2017-04-04T06:14:36Z learning: like another fantasy language
2017-04-04T06:15:14Z loke: learning: Tengwar.
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2017-04-04T06:19:05Z learning: wiki says its just been proposed, but not accepted, and the characters dont display in firefox or chrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengwar#Unicode
2017-04-04T06:19:16Z loke: learning: It's been accepted on the roadmap
2017-04-04T06:19:16Z learning: is that what you meant though, that it had at least been proposed?
2017-04-04T06:19:21Z learning: oh ok
2017-04-04T06:19:25Z learning: right you follow the mailing list
2017-04-04T06:19:38Z loke: There are also Shavian and Deseret.
2017-04-04T06:20:19Z loke: They're constructed, but not fictional.
2017-04-04T06:20:30Z lieven: Linux has put Klingon in its corporate zone
2017-04-04T06:21:10Z loke: Yes, and the Klingon Empire symbol coinsides with the Apple symbol in the OSX fonts. Ironic indeed.
2017-04-04T06:21:19Z learning: mormons have their own script
2017-04-04T06:21:26Z loke: learning: Yes. Deseret.
2017-04-04T06:21:45Z lieven: did they add the Voynich manuscript symbols? I could see some scholarly use for these.
2017-04-04T06:21:46Z learning: ive learned a lot just from this short convo about unicode
2017-04-04T06:22:30Z loke: lieven: Not as far as I know. But they did add the Phaistos Disc ones... That one is pretty ridiculous. It could be a child's scribblings for all we know.
2017-04-04T06:25:32Z loke: All right. I need to have some food now.
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2017-04-04T06:30:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: How do you suppose you read that? Rotate it as you read?
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2017-04-04T06:31:46Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: The Phaistos Disc?
2017-04-04T06:33:50Z loke: No one knows. It's just a single disc, filled with symbols. No one knows anything about it. Yet they decided it was a good candidate for encoding to Unicode. More so that PETSCII and Klingon. I love Unicode, but man they are insane sometimes.
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2017-04-04T06:44:26Z lieven: once they got in the emoji business, they've taken collectively leave of their senses
2017-04-04T06:44:31Z p_l: loke: the official purpose of Unicode definitely makes it more important to encode Phaistos Disc than PETSCII
2017-04-04T06:45:04Z p_l: arguably klingon, by virtue of being built-up to complete language usable by humans, deserves a place as well
2017-04-04T06:46:05Z aeth: Well, you have to draw the line somewhere.
2017-04-04T06:46:15Z aeth: Conlangs have probably never been more popular thanks to the Internet.
2017-04-04T06:46:26Z aeth: And some probably have some elaborate non-Unicode scripts.
2017-04-04T06:46:54Z aeth: What makes a conlang major enough for Unicode?
2017-04-04T06:47:07Z p_l: aeth: and emoji have become ubiquitous part of the daily language, which makes them more major than phaistos disk, arguably
2017-04-04T06:47:17Z aeth: Esperanto is a very serious conlang, it even has some native speakers.
2017-04-04T06:47:37Z p_l: aeth: so far conlangs didn't get a place, those like esperanto are useful without extensions to unicode
2017-04-04T06:47:41Z aeth: Is Klingon used seriously?
2017-04-04T06:48:23Z p_l: aeth: probably not enough, which is why it has no representation in unicode due to lack of texts important enough to record specifically in klingon script (rather than latin alphabet transcript)
2017-04-04T06:48:40Z bkst: native esperanto speakers are some of the most influential people in the world
2017-04-04T06:48:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: bkst: ?
2017-04-04T06:48:52Z aeth: p_l: Esperanto might have some characters only in Esperanto.
2017-04-04T06:49:23Z p_l: aeth: "might" or "has"
2017-04-04T06:49:43Z aeth: It looks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%88 might be
2017-04-04T06:49:53Z aeth: i.e. ĉ
2017-04-04T06:50:06Z p_l: aeth: those are encode-able in unicode already
2017-04-04T06:50:17Z p_l: generic accent marks from other european languages
2017-04-04T06:50:19Z aeth: yes, but they have their own letters, too.
2017-04-04T06:50:47Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%A4 i.e. ĥ also seems to be only in Esperanto
2017-04-04T06:50:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: bkst: I think this says more about the hobbies succesful people enjoy and make their kids enjoy than about the effects of esperanto.
2017-04-04T06:50:56Z aeth: My terminal doesn't even render the h with circumflex properly
2017-04-04T06:51:55Z p_l: aeth: and is a generic letter with generic accent, which are all covered by unicode (that's how "zalgotext" is produced after all, by mashing together combining accents)
2017-04-04T06:52:02Z aeth: p_l: you can combine the accent mark, but these have actual letters.
2017-04-04T06:52:13Z aeth: The articles I linked to show their unicode name and encoding number
2017-04-04T06:52:33Z aeth: Even though these two are only used in a conlang, and even though they *can* be formed in other ways, there they are, in Unicode.
2017-04-04T06:52:54Z p_l: aeth: combining characters arrived later
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2017-04-04T06:53:11Z aeth: My point is, the question isn't conlang support in Unicode, it's which conlangs.
2017-04-04T06:53:21Z bkst: Petit_Dejeuner: conlangs and lisp have a lot in common. They're both seen as a joke by outsiders. Insiders take them very seriously
2017-04-04T06:54:28Z p_l: „It encodes Latin letters from the Latin ISO character sets other than Latin-1 (which is already encoded in the Latin-1 Supplement  block) and also legacy characters from the ISO 6937 standard.”
2017-04-04T06:54:32Z p_l: „The Latin Extended-A block has been in the Unicode Standard since version 1.0, with its entire character repertoire, except for the Latin Small Letter Long S, which was added during unification with ISO 10646 in version 1.1.[3]”
2017-04-04T06:54:51Z p_l: tl;dr - H with circumflex is a legacy character from non-esperanto/non-unicode encoding
2017-04-04T06:55:19Z p_l: aeth: same block covers polish characters
2017-04-04T06:55:27Z aeth: bkst: You can flip that, though. Conlangs and Lisp have a lot in common. Whether or not they're better than the more popular alternatives is frequently debated on some corners of the Internet, but most people just use whatever's popular at the moment because that's practical.
2017-04-04T06:55:34Z isoraqathedh: Oh, huh.
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2017-04-04T06:56:28Z isoraqathedh: There's such a thing as the ConScript Unicode Registry that slaps in the fictional scripts inside the PUA.
2017-04-04T06:56:40Z isoraqathedh: It's of course unofficial, but it's a convention.
2017-04-04T06:56:55Z aeth: I love Lisp, but I have lost a lot of time to Lisp because in a lot of other languages, there would have been a library to use for things that I'm doing.
2017-04-04T06:56:55Z p_l: aeth: apparently Latin-3 (south europe) covered turkish, maltese and esperanto since 1988
2017-04-04T06:57:21Z isoraqathedh: Stuff like Ĥ at any rate is very useful for discussing hamiltonians.
2017-04-04T06:57:22Z bkst: aeth: Both lisp and esperanto have been counted out by popular opinion, but I think this really just means they are underestimated
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2017-04-04T06:58:35Z aeth: bkst: I think the main difference with programming is that no one needs to know I am using Lisp.
2017-04-04T06:59:00Z aeth: If you can serve a web site or write a desktop application in a language, and it works, few people will notice.
2017-04-04T06:59:29Z aeth: Lisp has it easier than conlangs.
2017-04-04T06:59:41Z bkst: programming proves that communication is not the only use of a language. But actually normal languages serve many uses aside from communication too
2017-04-04T07:00:32Z bkst: the value of communicating with your future self in natural language is underappreciated, for example. When programmers talk about writing good code they usually mean communicating with their future self
2017-04-04T07:00:32Z aeth: Imo, treating programming languages like languages is a mistake, a mistake that Perl embraces.
2017-04-04T07:01:10Z bkst: 'good code' is also usually a euphemism for clear thinking expressed in code
2017-04-04T07:01:38Z bkst: so these parts of PLs are not that different from natural languages
2017-04-04T07:02:34Z aeth: Well, programming langauges *use* natural language, e.g. comments or variable names or function names or macro names or type names or package names or (wow CL has a lot of different kinds of names)
2017-04-04T07:02:43Z White_Flame: source code needs to speak to 3 audiences, the machine, the original author, and other human readers
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2017-04-04T07:05:02Z aeth: But programming is sort of one-half natural language and one half mathematics...
2017-04-04T07:05:39Z bkst: I would say it's one half english and one half conlang
2017-04-04T07:05:55Z aeth: Well, if that conlang is Lojban.
2017-04-04T07:05:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's a subset of English.
2017-04-04T07:06:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: With very particular syntax.
2017-04-04T07:06:32Z bkst: i wonder if lojban is better specified than C
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2017-04-04T07:06:42Z aeth: The closest thing programming is to is probably mathematical proofs.
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2017-04-04T07:08:12Z learning: "aeth: I love Lisp, but...[libraries]"  I'd rather do things the hard way then put up with blatant stupidity, like being forced to store every operation into a variable just to be able to print them out if i need to.
2017-04-04T07:08:13Z aeth: It's a language where you remove all ambiguity, and everything has to be precisely defined.
2017-04-04T07:08:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: Perl is the exception.
2017-04-04T07:08:58Z learning: and then not even be able to explicitly define the scope of the variable that im only using for 1 more line
2017-04-04T07:09:03Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: < aeth> Imo, treating programming languages like languages is a mistake, a mistake that Perl embraces.
2017-04-04T07:09:14Z aeth: Some languages take programming and reintroduce ambiguities!
2017-04-04T07:09:25Z bkst: and C has formally ambiguous semantics so if Lojban is formally unambiguous then the mode widely used programming language on earth is less precise than it
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2017-04-04T07:09:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Of course programming language are more ambiguous than human languages.
2017-04-04T07:10:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: *I* always know what *I* mean.
2017-04-04T07:10:16Z aeth: bkst: JavaScript and Java and C++ could all plausibly compete for that "most widely used" claim (and the popularity measurements are too inexact to know)
2017-04-04T07:10:24Z aeth: Although C++ has probably declined relatively speaking.
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2017-04-04T07:10:36Z aeth: JavaScript is probably on top, or will be soon.
2017-04-04T07:10:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've heard C++ is starting to be more common in Robotics.
2017-04-04T07:10:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: robotics*
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2017-04-04T07:11:09Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: right, but you can still decline relatively if you're becoming increasingly popular in fields that are growing more slowly
2017-04-04T07:11:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: Even if it's less popular globally, it's still gaining in certain areas.
2017-04-04T07:11:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: You're probably right about js too.
2017-04-04T07:11:30Z bkst: C++ is on the upswing since 2010. python and javascript have lost marketshare when so much programming is 'native'
2017-04-04T07:11:31Z aeth: C++ doesn't need to lose any users at all in order to decline in relative popularity
2017-04-04T07:11:56Z aeth: bkst: mobile apps are pretty much the only thing saving the world from being overrun by JS, but I bet a lot of them embed JS
2017-04-04T07:12:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: They do.
2017-04-04T07:12:24Z bkst: all the important code is still written in C++
2017-04-04T07:12:25Z aeth: bkst: a lot of 'native' desktop apps are really just Electron.
2017-04-04T07:12:53Z aeth: You can spot them by the RAM usage and poor performance.
2017-04-04T07:12:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: bkst: I thought all the important code was in C, Java, ML, and Lisp.
2017-04-04T07:13:27Z bkst: everytime some new killer hardware platform comes out C/C++ move quicker than js/python/ruby
2017-04-04T07:13:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: It shouldn't really matter if the program is bottlenecked by IO.
2017-04-04T07:14:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...unless they stay on the UI thread.
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2017-04-04T07:14:10Z aeth: bkst: Yes, but most people are stuck on x86-64, except on mobile, where they're stuck on ARM.
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2017-04-04T07:14:35Z bkst: i agree with that but it seems the issue is getting the high level language ecosystems on to the new platforms
2017-04-04T07:14:48Z bkst: C seems to continually win because it gets implemented first
2017-04-04T07:14:54Z bkst: and then gets first mover advantage
2017-04-04T07:15:16Z aeth: Yes.
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2017-04-04T07:15:33Z aeth: essentially http://web.mit.edu/~simsong/www/ugh.pdf or https://www.dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html
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2017-04-04T07:15:48Z aeth: Unix and C focus on being easy to implement above everything else.
2017-04-04T07:15:50Z bkst: yeah simplicity of implementation counts for a lot
2017-04-04T07:16:02Z bkst: and this thesis has been reproven with mobile and IoT
2017-04-04T07:16:17Z aeth: Android is mostly Java except for games.
2017-04-04T07:16:17Z learning: is it really that big of a difference in the time it takes to implement C vs CL
2017-04-04T07:16:41Z bkst: learning I think it's a question of who is going to pay for it
2017-04-04T07:17:07Z learning: well is the argument that C is easier to implement, or easier to get paid to implement
2017-04-04T07:17:12Z aeth: learning: numeric tower, bounds checking, garbage collection, type checking, actual errors instead of numbers...
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2017-04-04T07:17:25Z learning: right
2017-04-04T07:17:26Z aeth: learning: and those are just the first things that came to mind
2017-04-04T07:17:29Z bkst: i think the argument is that C is cheaper to implement
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2017-04-04T07:18:01Z aeth: C can be hard to implement efficiently, but a lot of people put a lot of work into optimizing compilers. And I bet it's easier than standard CL
2017-04-04T07:18:10Z aeth: At least on normal hardware.
2017-04-04T07:18:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: If WorseIsBetter, than why aren't we all writing Forth?\
2017-04-04T07:18:15Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: or Brainfuck
2017-04-04T07:18:24Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: Brainfuck is one of the easiest languages to implement
2017-04-04T07:18:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^
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2017-04-04T07:18:30Z bkst: worse is better is a bad way to put it
2017-04-04T07:18:31Z learning: lol
2017-04-04T07:18:41Z bkst: he called it WorseIsBetter to get revenge i think
2017-04-04T07:18:54Z aeth: Someone should write a Lisp bootstrapping compiler on top of Brainfuck. You can easily write a Brainfuck in the assembly language of whatever target platform you want.
2017-04-04T07:19:05Z learning: hahahaha
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2017-04-04T07:20:12Z bkst: I mean the competition to C is not lisp. it is python/js/ruby/C#/Java. and the people writing those need IDEs and large ecosystems to be comfortable
2017-04-04T07:20:13Z learning: might as well just invent an easier intermediary language in lisp
2017-04-04T07:20:27Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: More seriously, I suppose (1) C had a minimum usefulness that Brainfuck doesn't have and (2) C was very cheap to obtain. Niche language compilers could be expensive (I mean, they still are, look at the commercial Common Lisps!)
2017-04-04T07:20:28Z bkst: those huge ecosystems will never get implemented before C tooling
2017-04-04T07:20:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: true
2017-04-04T07:20:59Z bkst: if any language could beat C at it's own game it would be lisp. But nobody pays for that
2017-04-04T07:21:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Even Ada is a pain to use with GNAT.
2017-04-04T07:21:32Z learning: "bkst: those huge ecosystems..." yeah thats a good point
2017-04-04T07:21:35Z bkst: WorseIsBetter is the wrong formula. C is a nice balance between ease of implementation, ease of use, power, and low level access
2017-04-04T07:21:47Z loke: bkst: You also have the Rust-mafia. They're very good at talking up their favourite things every time programming languages are discussed on hacker news.
2017-04-04T07:21:54Z aeth: bkst: And performance. Especially performance.
2017-04-04T07:22:02Z bkst: Lisp also has a nice balance but the world is alreayd written in C
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2017-04-04T07:22:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: compile C to Lisp
2017-04-04T07:22:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: problem solved
2017-04-04T07:22:25Z learning: ez pz
2017-04-04T07:22:40Z aeth: As far as performance goes, SBCL didn't exist in the 1980s. (CMUCL did, but it probably wasn't as good.)
2017-04-04T07:22:55Z loke: C is from the 70's though
2017-04-04T07:23:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: SBCL is ridiculously fast
2017-04-04T07:23:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: Compared to CPython
2017-04-04T07:23:24Z aeth: loke: Our current ecosystem is derived from the IBM PC, though. Not 1970s hardware.
2017-04-04T07:23:36Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Evetrything is fast compared to Python.
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2017-04-04T07:23:42Z aeth: So the stuff implemented on and popular with the IBM PC won.
2017-04-04T07:23:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: Ruby
2017-04-04T07:23:59Z loke: aeth: Why didn't Pascal win then?
2017-04-04T07:23:59Z learning: true vs java as well
2017-04-04T07:24:05Z aeth: loke: strings
2017-04-04T07:24:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: lol
2017-04-04T07:24:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: that's probably why
2017-04-04T07:24:12Z aeth: loke: Pascal strings are almost the right idea, but they're too short
2017-04-04T07:24:28Z aeth: C strings are ugly, but they're long
2017-04-04T07:24:35Z loke: Hmm... right. The length of the string is part of its type in Pascal, isn't it?
2017-04-04T07:24:49Z aeth: Iirc.
2017-04-04T07:24:51Z loke: so you can't compare two strins of different length, or someting like that.
2017-04-04T07:24:53Z X-Scale: I like this short text on this topic: "Alex Stepanov explains why C is so good" -> http://www.iq0.com/notes/stepanov.c.html
2017-04-04T07:26:01Z aeth: loke: you're right, it's mostly that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal_(programming_language)#Early_criticism
2017-04-04T07:26:16Z bkst: Pascal lost due to pure fashion/marketing though
2017-04-04T07:26:25Z iago: Delphi was quite popular back in time
2017-04-04T07:26:27Z bkst: why Java over Pascal? I can't see any real reason
2017-04-04T07:26:45Z bkst: everytime i have to make a UI i remember how nice Delphi was comparatively and how terrible stuff is now
2017-04-04T07:26:57Z aeth: bkst: Java was the embodiment of all of the fashonable C++ OOP overuse and misuse of the time.
2017-04-04T07:26:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: bkst: What was so nice about Delphi UI code?
2017-04-04T07:27:18Z Petit_Dejeuner enjoys Java a little bit.
2017-04-04T07:27:29Z bkst: Petit_Dejeuner: at the time I thought it was lame. But I have discovered new forms of badness
2017-04-04T07:27:52Z White_Flame: X-Scale: that's a bit of a survivorship bias, though.  C influenced the design of processors
2017-04-04T07:27:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's the oatmeal of languages. It's bland and has lumps, but it's simple enough it's hard to be dissapointed with it.
2017-04-04T07:28:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: @Java
2017-04-04T07:28:26Z bkst: i would say that described Delphi at the time... so why replace Delphi with Java? Seems to be a combination of fashion and corporate politics
2017-04-04T07:28:44Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: I think you mean /**\n * @java
2017-04-04T07:29:38Z iago: Java have the best big fat Frameworks around. It's not the language what is good, but the sheer numbers of enterprise moneys poured into its Frameworks, servers and tooling
2017-04-04T07:29:47Z aeth: bkst: Java is write once run everywhere, and also Java has applets that you can embed into web browsers, which are the future.
2017-04-04T07:30:02Z White_Flame: lol
2017-04-04T07:30:26Z learning: haahahah god damn it
2017-04-04T07:30:30Z learning: i read that seriously
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2017-04-04T07:30:40Z bkst: Delphi was nice to use compared to the OOP astronauting of Java. Delphi was logical, predictable, well documented, straight forward if not beautiful
2017-04-04T07:30:44Z aeth: learning: It was serious in the 1990s
2017-04-04T07:30:58Z aeth: Java in your toaster, Java in your microwave, Java on your phone (okay, that one worked out)
2017-04-04T07:31:11Z bkst: Java has so many pain points it makes Visual Basic seem nice to me
2017-04-04T07:31:12Z loke: Java on your credit card. That one also worked out.
2017-04-04T07:31:57Z loke: Actually, a lot of the Java everywhere stuff worked out. However, the benefit of having the same byte code everywhere turned out to not be the main draw.
2017-04-04T07:32:00Z White_Flame: Java's pain comes from it picking one thing to focus on, and subsequently being the worse single-focus language out there, having chosen Object-Obsessed Programming
2017-04-04T07:32:06Z loke: Remember Jini?
2017-04-04T07:32:24Z White_Flame: Forth is a single-focus language, with stacks.  Lisp is somewhat a single-focus language, with sexprs
2017-04-04T07:32:29Z White_Flame: both are better for it than Java
2017-04-04T07:32:53Z bkst: yep i think that's dead on. Java is the OOP language and OOP is not very nice
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2017-04-04T07:33:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: type hierarchies are a pain
2017-04-04T07:33:08Z bkst: and everyone was made to do OOP for some reason
2017-04-04T07:33:18Z learning: does java consider it's code to be an object, i think it does through reflection right?
2017-04-04T07:33:27Z aeth: White_Flame: Even minimalist Scheme isn't single-focus
2017-04-04T07:33:29Z bkst: when people talk about preferring C to C++ i think they are just saying that OOP hurts more than it helps
2017-04-04T07:33:39Z White_Flame: they bolted on reflection at some capacity.  And that reflection allows breaking the sandbox and injecting malware
2017-04-04T07:33:42Z Petit_Dejeuner is still waiting for the day he designs an abstract virtual class where all the concrete methods are implemented in terms of the virtual method and he'll be able to generate huge swaths of perfect code.
2017-04-04T07:34:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: bkst: I thought that had more to do with C++ having lots of hidden behavior.
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2017-04-04T07:34:41Z bkst: thats what people say
2017-04-04T07:34:55Z iago: Java is quite good for code monkeys, dependency injection, inversion of control, Interfaces, Aspects ... everything is there to get 1 good programmer to guide a bunch of 100 monkeys to achieve a working application
2017-04-04T07:35:03Z White_Flame: C++'s pain comes from template expansion insanity and that crappy legacy preprocessor being used too much
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2017-04-04T07:35:12Z learning: i think its interesting that the same way Lisp sees itself as a list, java has learned to see itself as an object
2017-04-04T07:35:20Z bkst: i think it is OOP that encourages people to write stuff with hidden behaviour. The style of the community
2017-04-04T07:35:34Z learning: so at least its consistent with the OOP religion
2017-04-04T07:36:01Z White_Flame: right, JS's object model, Lisp's sexprs, Forth's stacks... all are more flexible and lower level than Java's Objects
2017-04-04T07:36:13Z bkst: schools train people to write OOP astronaut code and then if they write C++ like that everything sucks
2017-04-04T07:37:09Z learning: havent used java, but it seems really similar to C#, and the amount of mindbending that has to be done upfront to get all your types to work together properly is insanity
2017-04-04T07:37:23Z bkst: programming classes imply that indirection and implicit behaviour is a virtue
2017-04-04T07:37:36Z White_Flame: if you didn't know, C# was microsoft's ripoff of Java after they violated the original trademarks
2017-04-04T07:37:44Z learning: thats was my assumption
2017-04-04T07:37:46Z aeth: They have diverged a bit, though.
2017-04-04T07:38:08Z loke has done lots of Java, and if you try to avoid falling into the abstraction trap, it's not too bad.
2017-04-04T07:38:15Z White_Flame: but yeah, C# seems to have upheaved & redesigned things better, while Java patches on weirdnesses
2017-04-04T07:38:21Z loke: The lack of function objects is annoying, but workable.
2017-04-04T07:38:27Z iago: i don't think the industry looks for the best language to be used by the best programmers, the look for the best language to get worse programmers productive, so they can lower the weekly paychecks
2017-04-04T07:38:42Z White_Flame: industry looks for the easiest language to hire for
2017-04-04T07:38:48Z bkst: loke: if you write code like that at university the profs penalize you for insufficient OOP style
2017-04-04T07:38:57Z learning: well iago: the point is to build tools that dont take geniuses to use
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2017-04-04T07:39:10Z learning: doesnt take a fighter jet pilot to drive a car
2017-04-04T07:39:17Z learning: is my opinion
2017-04-04T07:39:52Z learning: shouldnt you be able to build tools that are good enough for anyone to program with
2017-04-04T07:39:53Z loke: bkst: In my experience, programming teachers are the absolute worst programmers.
2017-04-04T07:40:10Z learning: idk, video game programmers are pretty bad
2017-04-04T07:40:16Z loke: bkst: So excuse me for not paying any attention to what universtiies have to say on the matter. :-)
2017-04-04T07:40:20Z iago: learning: I agree with you, but is something to be taken into account when looking why X language is so widely used if Y language is much better for a technical point of view
2017-04-04T07:40:27Z bkst: loke: the natural instinct is to reduce abstraction, but this leads to imperative code, and the programming teachers penalize that. its horrific how they teach
2017-04-04T07:41:30Z bkst: loke: i've seen so many students try to write straightforward imperative code to solve problems in a "routine" like style... in java just using a lot of methods instead of classes for example. The students get red inked until they become OOP astronauts
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2017-04-04T07:42:49Z bkst: then those OOP astronauts end up writing python/C++/C#/Java messes. people blame the languages but the style is just as much the problem
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2017-04-04T07:45:15Z learning: iago: completely agree with you honestly, just like to argue. for example, this huge push to get "diversity" into programming and all of these coding camps could be (and I think are) just efforts by industries to get cheaper, better employees
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2017-04-04T07:45:58Z learning: corporations have been getting away with paying women less for years
2017-04-04T07:46:11Z learning: and im sure microsoft is jealous of all that cheap labor trololol
2017-04-04T07:46:40Z bkst: execs want to reduce labor expenses to pad their resumes but this isn't because they are acting in the interest of the corporation
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2017-04-04T07:46:59Z White_Flame: pad their resumes?  more like pad their bonuses
2017-04-04T07:47:13Z bkst: pad their accomplishments
2017-04-04T07:47:38Z bkst: nickle and diming your employees is far less prdocutive than opening new revenue sources
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2017-04-04T07:47:50Z bkst: but discovering revenue sources requires talent
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2017-04-04T09:33:20Z Spatial: Last.net/354265 Is that a condition ?
2017-04-04T09:33:52Z Bicyclidine: link is broken.
2017-04-04T09:34:08Z Spatial: lpaste.net/354265
2017-04-04T09:35:01Z Bicyclidine: this doesn't seem condition-related at a glance
2017-04-04T09:35:49Z Spatial: It seems to just initialize.
2017-04-04T09:36:14Z Bicyclidine: that is presumably part of a loop form
2017-04-04T09:37:02Z Bicyclidine: the random form is evaluated for each loop
2017-04-04T09:37:22Z Bicyclidine: ie this is like (loop (setf exploratory-move? ...) (when ...))
2017-04-04T09:41:08Z Spatial: incompleteideas.net/sutton/book/code/TTT.lisp game function
2017-04-04T09:41:50Z Bicyclidine: yep, part of a loop.
2017-04-04T09:42:24Z Spatial: Meaning of that ?
2017-04-04T09:42:42Z Bicyclidine: Meaning your paste cannot be interpreted except in terms of the syntax of cl:loop
2017-04-04T09:42:43Z Bicyclidine: clhs loop
2017-04-04T09:42:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-04-04T09:42:45Z Spatial: The for
2017-04-04T09:42:48Z Bicyclidine: That has a grammar and so on
2017-04-04T09:43:23Z Bicyclidine: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html or
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2017-04-04T09:45:33Z Spatial: Yes. Not sure what for means in the loop's context
2017-04-04T09:46:07Z Bicyclidine: i tried to explain that with my form with setf in it, but if that's not enough both of these links include detailed information on that.
2017-04-04T09:46:08Z Spatial: Equivalent to setf ?
2017-04-04T09:46:31Z Bicyclidine: it updates the value for each loop iteration, is the point.
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2017-04-04T09:53:29Z ogamita: Spatial: could you please add the scheme? Without the scheme, erc cannot identify them as url, and clickin on them doesn't do anything.
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2017-04-04T10:01:32Z mrottenkolber: I just realzed the ELS venue’s wifi firewalls most ports (like IRC)... grrr
2017-04-04T10:01:51Z Bicyclidine: yeah. the wi fi wasn't even working yesterday morning, too
2017-04-04T10:02:48Z mrottenkolber: it worked for me, but yeah lots of people complained
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2017-04-04T10:26:43Z KZiemina: Hello World
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2017-04-04T10:27:56Z KZiemina: I am looking for usefull simple macros to show it in short introdution to lisp
2017-04-04T10:28:39Z KZiemina: It is side effect of workshop when in one place we need some lisp
2017-04-04T10:29:01Z KZiemina: Have anyone have idea what macros can I shown?
2017-04-04T10:31:10Z _death: here's an old one http://paste.lisp.org/display/134220
2017-04-04T10:31:42Z _death: the implementation uses another interesting macro, yacc:define-parser
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2017-04-04T10:32:48Z _death: and constanta:out, which is yet another one
2017-04-04T10:33:46Z KZiemina: thank you
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2017-04-04T10:39:29Z _death: it may be considered to complex.. then I'd suggest http://weitz.de/macros.lisp
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2017-04-04T10:41:54Z KZiemina: thanks everybody for Lisp macros examples
2017-04-04T10:42:11Z KZiemina: to the next time:)
2017-04-04T10:43:13Z attila_lendvai: KZiemina: and you can also mention that macros are only needed for a thin layer of syntax on top of closures and other primitives. often people write large macros while they could implement 99% of the functionality without macros, and wrap a small syntax around them
2017-04-04T10:44:56Z _death: that is good advice for beginners
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2017-04-04T10:49:35Z flip214: so, any news about next year's ELS location?
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2017-04-04T10:51:11Z loke: flip214: Singapore!
2017-04-04T10:51:13Z Xach: Portland, Maine would be nice
2017-04-04T10:51:37Z Xach: wait, no it wouldn't
2017-04-04T10:51:42Z Xach forgot he does not live there anymore
2017-04-04T10:51:43Z loke: Xach: No. I hear it's very cold there. And rainy. Definitly rainy. And there are wild animals.
2017-04-04T10:51:57Z loke: Singapore is much better.
2017-04-04T10:53:29Z _death: they also require fingerprints to visit
2017-04-04T10:53:35Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: what standard of work you recomended?
2017-04-04T10:54:07Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: most works that I know use macros pretty much
2017-04-04T10:54:09Z loke: _death: Do they?
2017-04-04T10:54:32Z shrdlu68: Nairobi?
2017-04-04T10:55:05Z _death: loke: well, I had a "lifelong" US visa.. apparently "lifelong" ended on 9/11 and now if I wanted to go to the US I'd have to give my fingerprints.. in effect it's dead to me from touristic standpoint
2017-04-04T10:55:07Z attila_lendvai: KZiemina: don't misunderstand me, it's ok to use macros. but it's a warning sign if your macros are large, especially if you're a beginner.
2017-04-04T10:55:53Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: thank for you advice, I still beginner in too many ways
2017-04-04T10:56:15Z shrdlu68: Year-round summer, and the animals are locked in the parks ;)
2017-04-04T10:56:26Z loke: shrdlu68: Sounds like Singapore.
2017-04-04T10:56:30Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: as I previous say, I will speak about Lisp because we need it
2017-04-04T10:56:31Z attila_lendvai: KZiemina: sorry, I'm not too good in the education of lisp. it's hard for me to think in a non-lisp way, therefore I'm not a good teacher
2017-04-04T10:56:50Z loke: Our montly tempoerature average changes 2° over the year.
2017-04-04T10:57:15Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: I think I can handled that much of laguage
2017-04-04T10:57:21Z Jonsky: is there a way to list all the installed systems in quicklisp?
2017-04-04T10:57:23Z attila_lendvai: KZiemina: I heard this is a good intro book, but it's for a different lisp dialect: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/little-schemer
2017-04-04T10:57:46Z loke: Jonsky: (ql:list-local-systems)
2017-04-04T10:58:04Z Jonsky: loke: weird, I got nil.
2017-04-04T10:58:11Z Xach: Jonsky: (ql-dist:installed-systmes (ql-dist:dist "quicklisp"))
2017-04-04T10:58:15Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: No problem, right now I don't need a teacher, just much more work in Lisp
2017-04-04T10:58:25Z loke: Oh wait... That's the list of systems in your quicklisp/local-projects basicallly.
2017-04-04T10:58:35Z JuanDaugherty: or just look in the directory
2017-04-04T10:58:35Z loke: I have so many there I didn't notice the difference. :-)
2017-04-04T10:58:41Z attila_lendvai: KZiemina: you can download it if you cannot afford it: http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?req=The+Little+Schemer
2017-04-04T10:58:50Z Xach: ql-dist:name and other accessors will pluck info out of a ql-dist:system object.
2017-04-04T10:58:57Z loke: Jonsky: try (ql-dist:installed-systems t)
2017-04-04T10:59:11Z flip214: I thought "ELS" means _E_uropean LS, but it seems that _E_arth LS is meant really.
2017-04-04T10:59:12Z KZiemina: attila_lendvai: and words from profesional like: you do it wrong way, are very valubael befor someone is spolited by bad habbits
2017-04-04T10:59:38Z attila_lendvai: KZiemina: and this may be still worth your time in this phase of knowledge: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2017-04-04T10:59:47Z JuanDaugherty: spolita festiva!
2017-04-04T11:00:04Z shrdlu68: flip214: I thought so too, but since people are vouching for Siberia and the Sahara...
2017-04-04T11:00:12Z KZiemina: thank everone I must go
2017-04-04T11:00:23Z Jonsky: ah right, thanks a lot. Now I got the list.
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2017-04-04T11:00:33Z JuanDaugherty: shrdlu68, do you have an interest in The shrdlu?
2017-04-04T11:00:54Z JuanDaugherty: or just like the name?
2017-04-04T11:00:57Z shrdlu68: Jonsky: Which one, the early AI project?
2017-04-04T11:01:05Z JuanDaugherty: yes
2017-04-04T11:01:13Z JuanDaugherty: winograd's
2017-04-04T11:01:14Z shrdlu68: Oops.
2017-04-04T11:01:36Z shrdlu68: Yes I do, GOFAI is an interest of mine.
2017-04-04T11:01:46Z JuanDaugherty: discounting that it could be an african word
2017-04-04T11:02:11Z JuanDaugherty: sfaict, there is no version ported to modern lisp(s)
2017-04-04T11:02:21Z shrdlu68: The works of Newell, Simon, Quillian...
2017-04-04T11:02:31Z shrdlu68: Fascinating stuff.
2017-04-04T11:02:32Z JuanDaugherty: all run under emulators of the ITL system or whosits
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2017-04-04T11:03:14Z shrdlu68: I like the idea of "Earth Lisp Symposium".
2017-04-04T11:03:39Z loke: Wasn't there an ILS?
2017-04-04T11:03:51Z loke: But it seemed to be less I and more A.
2017-04-04T11:03:55Z loke: Or even U
2017-04-04T11:03:56Z _death: ILC
2017-04-04T11:03:57Z Xach: A?
2017-04-04T11:04:10Z Xach: loke: it bounced between europe, north america, and asia...
2017-04-04T11:04:12Z shrdlu68: American, I presume.
2017-04-04T11:04:26Z loke: Xach: it did? Didn't know that. Must be before my time.
2017-04-04T11:05:51Z JuanDaugherty: inconsistent something, having trouble finding but ILS sounds right
2017-04-04T11:06:05Z loke: ILC apparently
2017-04-04T11:06:13Z shrdlu68: There is a very real possibility that I'm the only one that codes in CL in my country.
2017-04-04T11:06:22Z loke: shrdlu68: What country is that?
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2017-04-04T11:06:37Z shrdlu68: Kenya, East Africa.
2017-04-04T11:07:11Z loke: shrdlu68: I wouldn't be too sure. I knew a guy who were working there for Google, and if I recall correctly, he said he had at least used Lisp previously.
2017-04-04T11:07:18Z TCZ: xD
2017-04-04T11:07:21Z loke: (he went back to the US though :-) )
2017-04-04T11:08:07Z shrdlu68: ...so...lonely...
2017-04-04T11:08:26Z loke: shrdlu68: Here's an Upwork profile of someone in Kenya with CL expertise :-)
2017-04-04T11:08:26Z loke: https://www.upwork.com/o/profiles/users/_~0163242c49f577bf9e/
2017-04-04T11:09:20Z shrdlu68: Yay!
2017-04-04T11:09:36Z loke: And here's a Github profile for someone in Nairobi that has at least one Common Lisp project: https://github.com/fifinonz
2017-04-04T11:09:49Z JuanDaugherty: ITS
2017-04-04T11:09:51Z loke: Seems to be school assignments though
2017-04-04T11:10:00Z JuanDaugherty: incompatible timesharing system
2017-04-04T11:10:14Z loke: JuanDaugherty: I use that sometimes, for fun. It comes with MacLisp
2017-04-04T11:10:27Z loke: JuanDaugherty: There is one you can connect to and use.
2017-04-04T11:10:30Z _death: there should be a One Lisper per Country project
2017-04-04T11:10:39Z shrdlu68: Hehe.
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2017-04-04T11:11:22Z JuanDaugherty: there's a largely working version with a web i/f but I believe it uses an emulator for the original lisp
2017-04-04T11:11:38Z loke: JuanDaugherty: You can use supdup to connect to its.pdp10.se
2017-04-04T11:12:18Z loke: It has the real thing.
2017-04-04T11:12:29Z JuanDaugherty: i'd rather have a modern version and actually recall the thing I was referring to uses clisp
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2017-04-04T11:13:44Z JuanDaugherty: noteworthy that something that influential not forward ported more
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2017-04-04T11:41:15Z pillton: Is this a bug? http://paste.lisp.org/display/343434
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2017-04-04T11:42:37Z Bicyclidine: do you use complex part times for something?
2017-04-04T11:42:42Z Bicyclidine: part types*
2017-04-04T11:42:49Z Bicyclidine: (i don't know if it's a bug)O
2017-04-04T11:43:12Z pillton: I am implementing name mangling for implementation specific types.
2017-04-04T11:43:22Z Bicyclidine: oh dear
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2017-04-04T11:43:58Z pillton: I think this is a bug.
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2017-04-04T11:47:03Z _death: why do you think it's a bug
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2017-04-04T11:47:25Z Xof: It's complicated
2017-04-04T11:48:30Z Xof: the complex compound type is underspecified, or possibly more constrained than just the upgraded-complex-part-type thing
2017-04-04T11:48:50Z Xof: (complex float) is actually all complex kinds that you get when you feed floats to the COMPLEX function
2017-04-04T11:49:10Z Xof: that in sbcl boils down to (or (complex single-float) (complex double-float))
2017-04-04T11:49:37Z Xof: there isn't a single upgraded-complex-part-type more specific than REAL, but (complex float) excludes (complex rational) which is included in (complex real)
2017-04-04T11:50:42Z Xof: for yet more fun, consider the type (complex (eql 0))
2017-04-04T11:51:21Z Bicyclidine: i think that bit me briefly because it's sort of bottom
2017-04-04T11:51:29Z Xof: yes it is
2017-04-04T11:51:56Z Xof: so upgrading it /should/ downgrade it
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2017-04-04T11:55:12Z Spatial: incompleteideas.net/sutton/book/code/TTT.lisp have doubt still in game function
2017-04-04T11:55:48Z Bicyclidine: what doubt
2017-04-04T11:57:06Z Spatial: for is equivalent to setf. Understood.where does do end ?
2017-04-04T11:57:12Z pillton: Xof: I don't understand the problem with (complex (eql 0)).
2017-04-04T11:57:26Z Bicyclidine: pillton: (complex 0) returns 0, or something like that
2017-04-04T11:57:38Z Bicyclidine: because of how zero works with complexes
2017-04-04T11:57:46Z Xof: the complex specialising type says (complex X) means all the complexes that you get from feeding kinds of X to the COMPLEX function
2017-04-04T11:57:52Z Xof: (complex 0 0) returns the integer 0
2017-04-04T11:58:02Z pillton: Ah ok.
2017-04-04T11:58:06Z Xof: so there are no complexes that you get from feeding objects of type (EQL 0) to COMPLEX
2017-04-04T11:58:07Z Bicyclidine: Spatial: the remaining forms in that loop are all part of the DO clause. it's an implicit progn
2017-04-04T11:58:33Z Bicyclidine: Spatial: i recommend reading that PCL chapter i linked you
2017-04-04T11:58:37Z Spatial: At the end of when ?
2017-04-04T11:59:22Z Spatial: Okay.
2017-04-04T11:59:22Z Spatial: Inner and outer loop.
2017-04-04T11:59:25Z Spatial: Inner and outer loop.
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2017-04-04T11:59:26Z Spatial: Okay.
2017-04-04T11:59:26Z Bicyclidine: as in, you could just as well have "do (progn (when (terminal-state-p ...) ...) (setf new-state ...) ...))"
2017-04-04T11:59:41Z phoe: Spatial: you seem to be looping as well
2017-04-04T11:59:45Z pillton: Xof Bicyclidine: So the fact that the spec says "The real part and imaginary part are ... both of the same float type" doesn't exclude the possibility of having the implementation specific system class (complex float) does it?
2017-04-04T12:00:09Z Bicyclidine: no idea
2017-04-04T12:00:17Z phoe: Spatial: https://i.imgtc.com/FFZUrmX.png
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2017-04-04T12:00:58Z _death: would it be fair to characterize it as declaration types vs. representational types issue
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2017-04-04T12:01:24Z Bicyclidine: whenever i run into a weird type thing i always assume it's that issue
2017-04-04T12:01:26Z Xof: pillton: in principle an implementation could provide (complex float) as a specialized implementation yes
2017-04-04T12:01:45Z Bicyclidine: 90% of the time it's arrays, anyway
2017-04-04T12:02:34Z Xof: for Jim Newton at ELS it was FUNCTION types
2017-04-04T12:02:58Z Bicyclidine: i was going to talk to him about that
2017-04-04T12:03:17Z Bicyclidine: but maybe he's already had it explained
2017-04-04T12:03:37Z pillton: Xof: Ok. Thank you for the explanation.
2017-04-04T12:03:44Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Thanks.
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2017-04-04T12:04:27Z Xof: Bicyclidine: I mentioned it to him at lunch :)
2017-04-04T12:04:47Z Bicyclidine: ah. i was going to sit down with you but the table was full, so i just ate my kebab behind you
2017-04-04T12:04:59Z Bicyclidine: but it's ok, because it was a good kebab
2017-04-04T12:05:51Z _death: list form of FUNCTION type specifiers :(
2017-04-04T12:06:11Z pillton: What was the issue with function types?
2017-04-04T12:06:32Z phoe: they are required to error when checked at runtime
2017-04-04T12:06:33Z _death: the list form can only be used for declaration, not discrimination
2017-04-04T12:06:36Z Bicyclidine: yeah what xof was referring to is that jim newton expected to be able to do e.g. (typep thing '(function (x))) to determine whether thing is a function that accepts one argument
2017-04-04T12:06:57Z phoe: clhs typep
2017-04-04T12:06:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm
2017-04-04T12:07:00Z phoe: "An error of type error is signaled if type-specifier is values, or a type specifier list whose first element is either function or values."
2017-04-04T12:07:11Z Bicyclidine: which is not unreasonable, but indeed, an error
2017-04-04T12:07:16Z pillton: Oh right.
2017-04-04T12:07:24Z Bicyclidine: (typep thing '(function * nil)) would be more problematic :D
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2017-04-04T12:08:12Z _death: some notes https://github.com/death/sbcl/blob/4341538e3e4f62ae111fee2e657d5969322f6b02/src/pcl/init.lisp#L65
2017-04-04T12:08:24Z pillton: It would be O(lambda-parameters-limit). :)
2017-04-04T12:08:41Z Bicyclidine: _death: i had that exact problem in sicl and i kind of hate my solution
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2017-04-04T12:09:35Z phoe: Bicyclidine: I solved that problem once by parsing the lambda list of a function
2017-04-04T12:09:53Z _death: Bicyclidine: my "solution" was also inefficient.. that's why I abandoned that branch
2017-04-04T12:09:53Z phoe: that's where I can get function arity from.
2017-04-04T12:10:00Z Bicyclidine: jim's problem? yeah you can do stuff like that
2017-04-04T12:10:40Z Bicyclidine: obviously in principle a function could always know its lambda list, but implementations are allowed to drop that
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2017-04-04T12:14:40Z Bicyclidine: _death: did you have a case where someone actually used the list form of function in a slot type specifier?
2017-04-04T12:15:12Z Bicyclidine: as far as i can tell nobody uses complex function types for variables/THE anyway, making me especially annoyed by having to fix things
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2017-04-04T12:15:31Z _death: Bicyclidine: no, but for a correct implementation I need to support those
2017-04-04T12:15:36Z Bicyclidine: right
2017-04-04T12:17:12Z _death: Bicyclidine: the case was actually pretty tame bug that led to a surprisingly inscurtable error and backtrace.. this patch would make it very clear, if it could be made to work well
2017-04-04T12:17:36Z Bicyclidine: i guess i wouldn't mind too much if complex function types silently became normal FUNCTION for typep, like what happens with array upgrading, but that would confuse the hell out of people
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2017-04-04T12:20:53Z _death: btw the bugs I mentioned in the comments are still there, methinks
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2017-04-04T12:21:28Z Jonsky: what is the use of (the ...) form?
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2017-04-04T12:22:06Z Bicyclidine: when you want to declare the type of a value not bound to a name
2017-04-04T12:22:25Z Bicyclidine: multiple values, rather. it's a little marginal
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2017-04-04T12:23:42Z pillton: It is sometimes used to pass type information to compiler macros too.
2017-04-04T12:24:02Z Jonsky: I was expecting something would happend if the type returned by the form is not the same as that declared in (the ... ) form. but then hs says the result in unspecified.
2017-04-04T12:24:26Z pillton: It is like that for all operators in the common-lisp package.
2017-04-04T12:24:28Z Bicyclidine: it's information for the compiler
2017-04-04T12:24:33Z Bicyclidine: not a type check
2017-04-04T12:25:10Z _death: Jonsky: it is unspecified by the CLHS.. but SBCL does typecheck with safety 3, I believe
2017-04-04T12:25:15Z Bicyclidine: so, for example, if you had (the fixnum (+ a b)) where a and b are declared fixnum the compiler can go oh, i don't need to generate code to check for overflow
2017-04-04T12:26:19Z phoe: Bicyclidine: uh? why doesn't it need to generate code to check for overflow?
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2017-04-04T12:26:46Z Bicyclidine: because if it overflowed the result wouldn't be a fixnum?
2017-04-04T12:27:07Z phoe: oh wait, yes I got it
2017-04-04T12:27:19Z Jonsky: pillton: yeah, I came across this form when I was reading some examples of compiler macros
2017-04-04T12:27:23Z phoe: I mixed it up - thought A and B were fixnums, but here the result is a fixnum
2017-04-04T12:28:08Z Bicyclidine: well they all are
2017-04-04T12:28:08Z pillton: Night. Enjoy the second day of the conference.
2017-04-04T12:28:33Z Bicyclidine: if you just had (+ a b) with a and b fixnum, you have to worry about overflow. if you had (the (+ a b)) with no declarations on a and b, they could be rationals or something
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2017-04-04T12:28:56Z phoe: night, pillton!
2017-04-04T12:28:58Z Jonsky: Bicyclidine: so if the (the ...) form was there.  the value of (+ a b) would be seemed as a fixnum? (so if accident happens we wouldn't know)
2017-04-04T12:29:16Z Jonsky: pillton: night
2017-04-04T12:29:30Z Bicyclidine: is "seemed" supposed to be "assumed"? if so, yes, but as mentioned implementations will often put in a check on high safety
2017-04-04T12:29:59Z Bicyclidine: (but they aren't required to)
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2017-04-04T12:30:46Z Jonsky: ah ha now I got it.
2017-04-04T12:31:16Z Jonsky: it is like a way to tell the compiler to skip some type checking so it can run faster.
2017-04-04T12:31:37Z Bicyclidine: more or less
2017-04-04T12:32:37Z Jonsky: thanks a lot
2017-04-04T12:33:24Z _death: it may also help some humans when they need to make assumptions about code
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2017-04-04T12:34:21Z _death: but don't tell the type fanatics I said that, they may think I'm one of them ;)
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2017-04-04T12:37:42Z Jonsky: LOL
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2017-04-04T13:36:41Z Jonsky: I am using sbcl and just found something weird
2017-04-04T13:36:59Z Jonsky:  (constantp 'hello) ==> NIL
2017-04-04T13:37:28Z Xof: constantp is a function
2017-04-04T13:37:37Z Xof: so its arguments are evaluated
2017-04-04T13:37:55Z Jonsky: I thought quote forms are always considered constant
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2017-04-04T13:38:39Z Xof: yes, but the argument to the FUNCTION constantp doesn't evaluate to a quote form
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2017-04-04T13:39:34Z Xof: if you call (identity 'hello), the return value is the symbol hello, not the list (quote hello)
2017-04-04T13:39:46Z Jonsky: ah ha
2017-04-04T13:39:58Z antoszka: Xof: see the clhs: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/f_consta.htm
2017-04-04T13:40:03Z antoszka: Xof: With examples.
2017-04-04T13:40:26Z Jonsky: Thanks a lot. I was a bit confused.
2017-04-04T13:40:42Z antoszka: Sorry, Jonsky, not Xof, obviously ↑ :)
2017-04-04T13:41:35Z ogamita: Jonsky: also, constantp doesn't do what you probably think.  cf. https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/C0xd745d3Xc
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2017-04-04T13:45:51Z Jonsky: hm ... I am not the only one that feel uneasy with this form
2017-04-04T13:46:35Z Bicyclidine: clhs is right, constantp is for forms, not values, conceptually, so arrays being constant makes perfect sense
2017-04-04T13:47:26Z ogamita: It's not intended for normal functions to determine if an object is a literal object, but for macros to determine if a form will evaluate always to the same object.
2017-04-04T13:47:26Z Bicyclidine: wow every single person in that thread disagrees with you
2017-04-04T13:47:33Z Bicyclidine: yes
2017-04-04T13:49:04Z Bicyclidine: well, for anything dealing with forms, which is usually macro expanders and functions called by macro expanders
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2017-04-04T13:52:55Z ogamita: Bicyclidine: of course, I was young then :-)
2017-04-04T13:53:50Z Bicyclidine: i guess you couldn't have a modifiable-object-p since an array or whatever might in fact be constant
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2017-04-04T14:20:48Z axion: Aparently Github does not like Common Lisp
2017-04-04T14:21:51Z antoszka: In what way does it not like it?
2017-04-04T14:21:56Z drmeister: What about Common Lisp does github not like?
2017-04-04T14:22:09Z axion: https://github.com/trending - Try clicking 'Common Lisp' on the right. Now, try any other language.
2017-04-04T14:22:15Z antoszka: Oh, there was something about the common lisp *tag* not working.
2017-04-04T14:22:16Z drmeister: Ah
2017-04-04T14:22:25Z antoszka: I've come across that a while ago.
2017-04-04T14:23:29Z dlowe: it works if you expand the time from "Today"
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2017-04-04T14:23:39Z dlowe: "this week" works, for instance
2017-04-04T14:24:55Z axion: Aha
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2017-04-04T15:03:52Z warweasle: Question about two-way-streams and echo-streams. I want to create a simple in/out stream (for the same program). Two-way-streams seem the way to go, but do I *need* to use string-input/output streams? (with-input-from-string ..) requires a string. I don't want to input a string. Seems hackish to just pull it out immediately.
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2017-04-04T15:09:04Z Zhivago: What problem are you trying to solve with these streams?
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2017-04-04T15:10:41Z warweasle: Zhivago: I'm writing a remote repl, but my front end is event based. Output works fine, but I need to accept input as well. So (yes-or-no ..) wouldn't work correctly.
2017-04-04T15:11:07Z Zhivago: Have you considered gray streams?
2017-04-04T15:11:53Z warweasle: Zhivago: I looked at them long ago, but never made any progress. Can they make a bidirectional stream? That would be ideal.
2017-04-04T15:12:15Z warweasle: Swank uses sockets, but that seems hackish.
2017-04-04T15:12:18Z Zhivago: They can do whatever you tell them to do, given their interface.
2017-04-04T15:12:40Z Zhivago: I'm not sure if they're the best solution, but at least worth ruling out.
2017-04-04T15:14:42Z warweasle: Zhivago: Ok. I'll look them up. I might be a better programmer than 6 years ago.
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2017-04-04T15:17:14Z warweasle: Still, I'm surprised lisp doesn't have internal pipes. It has everything else. Except for what emacs has. Then swank has almost everything and slime has everything else.
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2017-04-04T18:31:17Z newdan: Is it okay to (require 'some-system) in my package if I only want to use fully-qualified names?
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2017-04-04T18:33:21Z nyef: newdan: Yes, though you may wish to use ASDF or quicklisp:quickload instead of REQUIRE.
2017-04-04T18:34:13Z nyef: (REQUIRE is for bringing software into your current process, not for affecting the package system beyond that.)
2017-04-04T18:34:14Z newdan: nyef: so instead of require, asdf:load-system?
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2017-04-04T18:35:30Z newdan: I have a defsystem in place, just don't want to :use the package (or pick the names individually for :import-from)
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2017-04-04T18:38:41Z nyef: newdan: If you already have a system definition in place, that's where you should be declaring your dependencies anyway, rather than using REQUIRE or any other method for explicitly loading them.
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2017-04-04T18:41:14Z newdan: nyef: so if I have a defsystem in place I can just reference the package directly in each file?  I guess that makes sense, just a CL newbie and so used to having to import explicitly in Java and Python, the thought never occurred to me
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2017-04-04T18:44:35Z nyef: newdan: Right. Module (or system) dependencies are typically orthogonal to namespace issues.
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2017-04-04T18:45:16Z nyef: newdan: There's an additional wrinkle for package-inferred-system, if you're using that, which is the "empty" :import-from, but unless you're using package-inferred-system then you don't need to worry about it.
2017-04-04T18:48:46Z phoe: pjb: Spain!
2017-04-04T18:49:08Z phoe: That's where ELS '18 is at.
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2017-04-04T18:53:32Z pjb: phoe: Great!  Now that I'm in France…
2017-04-04T18:54:47Z pjb: warweasle: CL has pipes!  cf. com.informatimago.clext.pipe
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2017-04-04T18:55:01Z phoe: pjb: well, not too far away.
2017-04-04T18:55:12Z phoe: If I made it from Cracow to Brussels, then it's possible that you can make it as well.
2017-04-04T18:55:43Z pjb: warweasle: notice, for pipes, you need threads (if you're blocked reading the pipe, you cannot write, if you're blocked writing, you cannot read).  This is why they're not provided in a threadless standard.
2017-04-04T18:55:51Z pjb: phoe: of course, jj.
2017-04-04T18:55:57Z phoe: jj?
2017-04-04T18:56:21Z pjb: just joking
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2017-04-04T18:58:28Z pjb: newdan: you only need to load the package definition first, (and possibly the files defining the macros you).
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2017-04-04T19:22:11Z warweasle: pjb: Thanks. I just now saw this. I guess that makes sense. I'm using it as IPC...well, not different processes but still...
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2017-04-04T19:23:21Z shrdlu68: Are there any particular reasons against using tagbody and go instead of looping with costructs like loop and do?
2017-04-04T19:23:38Z Bicyclidine: not any more than for using go in the first place
2017-04-04T19:24:08Z phoe: shrdlu68: not really, iteration macros compile into tagbody/go anyway
2017-04-04T19:25:27Z shrdlu68: Ah, okay.
2017-04-04T19:25:51Z pjb: ITC: Inter-Thread Communications ;-)
2017-04-04T19:26:46Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: According to XKCD, there are velcioraptors.
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2017-04-04T19:27:42Z jasom: shrdlu68: mainly readability.  (loop for i = (foo) then (bar) collect (baz i)) is going to be more clear than whatever tagbody it expands to
2017-04-04T19:28:40Z shrdlu68: jasom: It's just that section 2.2.1.1 of https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2631.txt seems to resist any form of elegance.
2017-04-04T19:28:44Z Bicyclidine: according to xkcd, there are always velociraptors
2017-04-04T19:29:08Z Bicyclidine: state machine? yeah don't sweat it
2017-04-04T19:29:08Z shrdlu68: I've resorted to nesting let* and using tagbody/go.
2017-04-04T19:29:15Z jasom: shrdlu68: oh state-machines just beg for tagbody/go
2017-04-04T19:29:50Z Bicyclidine: when i see something like that i just write it with prog and if i see any obvious way to make it better i do that
2017-04-04T19:29:52Z Bicyclidine: and if not, fuck it
2017-04-04T19:29:52Z Xach: things like dolist and dotimes already have implicit tagbodies, too.
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2017-04-04T19:31:32Z jasom: shrdlu68: prog* ftw (basically a let* plus tagbody plus block)
2017-04-04T19:33:13Z nyef: Ah, yes. The "program feature".
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2017-04-04T20:06:27Z felideon: Xach: hey, does this error look familiar to you? getting an error when trying to make buildapp. sbcl 1.2.7
2017-04-04T20:06:40Z felideon: do I need to install latest sbcl?
2017-04-04T20:06:48Z felideon: oops: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343488
2017-04-04T20:07:53Z XachX: Hmm. I don't remember that error. What version of asdf?
2017-04-04T20:08:10Z felideon: 3.1.3
2017-04-04T20:09:56Z Xach: I'm not sure, sorry. I don't remember seeing anything like that.
2017-04-04T20:10:33Z felideon: bummer. thanks.
2017-04-04T20:15:36Z Xach: felideon: please let me know if the problem persists with a newer sbcl
2017-04-04T20:19:53Z felideon: sure
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2017-04-04T21:31:36Z felideon: Xach: seems like although my coworker was downloading the latest version of buildapp, he was doing a make install on an old copy of buildapp in his ~/Downloads folder. :/
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2017-04-04T22:26:30Z pillton: pjb: You don't need threads for pipes. You need a multiplexing operator like poll.
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2017-04-04T23:44:26Z pmc: Anyone know of a profiler for GNU CLISP?  I was going to install slime for vim but their metering module does not support GNU CLISP (it doesn't load properly).
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2017-04-05T00:09:09Z warweasle: What's the best way to insert a character into a string?
2017-04-05T00:09:29Z warweasle: It can be at any position.
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2017-04-05T00:16:47Z rpav: warweasle: for an editor, or just like one-off?
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2017-04-05T00:16:53Z edgar-rft: warweasel: (setf (char <string> <index>) <char>)
2017-04-05T00:16:53Z rpav: or few-off
2017-04-05T00:17:09Z rpav: that's "replace" not "insert"?
2017-04-05T00:17:16Z warweasle: rpav: If I said an editor would you think I'm crazy?
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2017-04-05T00:17:44Z rpav: warweasle: no but if it's more than a line editor, use something better than string inserts
2017-04-05T00:17:53Z warweasle: rpav: Oh, sorry about that. Yes, I want to insert characters into text at any position. I'm using concatenate and (princ-to-string) for the character
2017-04-05T00:19:32Z rpav: warweasle: if that's for a line editor, you probably want to do a bit more management but i dunno
2017-04-05T00:20:00Z rpav: you shouldn't need to princ-to-string though .. shift all the characters one direction, then setf the element you care about
2017-04-05T00:20:16Z rpav: otherwise you create a bunch of string garbage every insert which kinda sucks
2017-04-05T00:20:54Z rpav: if you're doing a line editor, possibly manage an adjustable vector with fill-pointer
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2017-04-05T00:21:29Z rpav: looks like SBCL lets you do adjustable/fill-pointer'd strings at least
2017-04-05T00:22:17Z warweasle: rpav: I'm only holding a paragraph at a time right now. It should be fast enough for a demo project.
2017-04-05T00:22:37Z warweasle: rpav: But whenever I think lisp has missed something, I found out it had it all along.
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2017-04-05T00:33:46Z rpav: warweasle: dunno, lisp string stuff kinda sucks, but there might be a good lib
2017-04-05T00:34:14Z rpav: there _is_ the one gap buffer system .. not great but probably better than not
2017-04-05T00:34:44Z rpav: https://common-lisp.net/project/flexichain/
2017-04-05T00:35:03Z rpav: also apparently cl-gap-buffer which looks a lot less overengineered ;)
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2017-04-05T00:37:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also https://github.com/robert-strandh/Cluffer
2017-04-05T00:39:23Z rpav: what a name ;)
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2017-04-05T00:46:51Z warweasle: rpav: Well, it looks like flexichain does what I've been coding the last hour.
2017-04-05T00:47:39Z rpav: warweasle: doh, well, save the next few i guess
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2017-04-05T00:50:50Z oystewh: is there a great/working/proven/standard/amazing free object store solution for cl that everybody uses?
2017-04-05T00:53:16Z pjb: oystewh: does / mean AND or OR?
2017-04-05T00:54:34Z oystewh: both: the more the merrier
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2017-04-05T00:56:07Z warweasle: oystewh: Conspack?
2017-04-05T00:56:57Z oystewh: i was thinking more like one of these: http://cliki.net/ObjectStore
2017-04-05T00:57:02Z pjb: pillton: Well, POLL, and the discipline to use it.
2017-04-05T00:57:15Z oystewh: there's always some that are outdated etc
2017-04-05T00:57:19Z pjb: pillton: but it's a good idea, I will consider adding something like this.
2017-04-05T00:59:43Z pjb: warweasle: the best way to insert into sequences is replace-subseq
2017-04-05T01:00:30Z warweasle: rpav: I'm not seeing that function
2017-04-05T01:00:49Z warweasle: Oh, it's two function
2017-04-05T01:00:50Z warweasle: s
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2017-04-05T01:01:13Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq '(#\l) "Helo"  2 2) #| --> "Hello" |#
2017-04-05T01:01:24Z pjb: It's a single function.
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2017-04-05T01:03:35Z pjb: Of course, if you need to do that a lot on the same string, flexichain is a better data structure.
2017-04-05T01:05:08Z warweasle: pjb: Well...I need to pass the string to cffi. So I'm just going to stick with strings for now. All I need is an insert and delete for string and a vector of strings.
2017-04-05T01:05:56Z warweasle: It's for a clinch demo so it's not mission critical.
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2017-04-05T01:07:06Z pjb: replace-subseq is versatile.
2017-04-05T01:07:47Z pjb: You can use it to easily replace/delete/insert subsequences in lists and vectors (including strings and bit-vectors).
2017-04-05T01:08:14Z pjb: It is destructive if possible, otherwise it produces a fresh vector.
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2017-04-05T02:00:11Z BusFactor1: I've updated my BusFactor1 Inc. website, my lisp based company: http://busfactor1.ca
2017-04-05T02:01:12Z BusFactor1: I also started this really cool S-expression editor last night.
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2017-04-05T02:01:24Z BusFactor1: An old school one, like from the command line.
2017-04-05T02:01:56Z BusFactor1: With a totally different development practice. It's been interesting.
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2017-04-05T02:12:11Z pjb: BusFactor1: like sedit? http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/sedit/index.html
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2017-04-05T02:41:43Z BusFactor1: pjb: yes, something like that but with a different interface
2017-04-05T02:41:59Z BusFactor1: structurally the same though...something i could use as a base to work from
2017-04-05T02:42:16Z BusFactor1: would you mind if i took a look at it for that purose and possibly incorporated it?
2017-04-05T02:43:14Z BusFactor1: my editor is really about the interface
2017-04-05T02:43:19Z BusFactor1: the command language
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2017-04-05T02:51:41Z BusFactor1: AGPL nice.  I was considering using that for this project.
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2017-04-05T02:56:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: AGPL is wonderful.
2017-04-05T02:57:18Z BusFactor1: I like the idea of it for this project.
2017-04-05T02:58:38Z BusFactor1: I think I'm only going to put it on one of my machines though, so it doesn't infect my other work haha
2017-04-05T02:58:57Z BusFactor1: My Solaris machine.
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2017-04-05T03:02:33Z BusFactor1: Lispworks has a suprisingly good interface on it.
2017-04-05T03:04:56Z whoman: what OS? i tried allegro recently. i didnt look past the UI
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2017-04-05T03:06:24Z BusFactor1: Solaris
2017-04-05T03:06:33Z BusFactor1: Or proably any other unix
2017-04-05T03:06:37Z BusFactor1: I think it's GTK
2017-04-05T03:06:48Z BusFactor1: but it's got a good 'emacs' feel to it
2017-04-05T03:06:57Z BusFactor1: and not as interrupting as the macOS version
2017-04-05T03:07:30Z whoman: hmmmm
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2017-04-05T03:08:50Z BusFactor1: I didn't like Allegro either for the same reason.
2017-04-05T03:08:52Z whoman: it is gtk. i am using emacs on windows
2017-04-05T03:08:58Z whoman: lispworks is indeed gtk*
2017-04-05T03:09:13Z BusFactor1: on macos i use lispworks as a backend for slime
2017-04-05T03:11:24Z whoman: ah, i am seeing here the personal edition available for download. you rather like to use emacs than lispworks gui? or sbcl or other impl? ^_^
2017-04-05T03:12:33Z BusFactor1: i tried the lw gui for a while on macos but it's too 'interrupty' with non-escapable dialogs
2017-04-05T03:12:41Z BusFactor1: so you always have to go over to the mouse
2017-04-05T03:12:52Z BusFactor1: doesn't have that problem on unices
2017-04-05T03:13:24Z BusFactor1: as for using sbcl or some other os implememtaion, i have for years but i thought i'd try out a commercial one to see what they're like
2017-04-05T03:13:29Z BusFactor1: and for macos development
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2017-04-05T03:13:51Z BusFactor1: so far i've gotten 3 apps in the macOS App Store with LW
2017-04-05T03:13:55Z whoman: ahh cool =) altho uncool for the macOS thing
2017-04-05T03:13:59Z BusFactor1: i know
2017-04-05T03:14:06Z BusFactor1: i'm a recent convert haha
2017-04-05T03:14:08Z whoman: oh. thats quite a bit of appage =)
2017-04-05T03:14:31Z BusFactor1: you can check them on my page: http://busfactor1.ca/
2017-04-05T03:14:47Z BusFactor1: they're small, experiements just to see *how* to get into the app store
2017-04-05T03:14:53Z whoman misses macOS, havent used since the start of 2012. 
2017-04-05T03:15:03Z BusFactor1: i like it...it's just unix
2017-04-05T03:15:10Z BusFactor1: with a bit of structure
2017-04-05T03:16:20Z whoman: ELPE - interesting
2017-04-05T03:16:35Z whoman: yes. i love macOS, its a great unix
2017-04-05T03:17:00Z BusFactor1: re: ELPE that's another experiment
2017-04-05T03:17:03Z whoman: i am still back and forth between emacs lisp and common lisp, it is becoming an existential issue
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2017-04-05T03:17:39Z BusFactor1: i prefer CL, but learning emacs lisp really let's you know emacs
2017-04-05T03:17:59Z jasom: isn't there an implementtion of CL in elisp?
2017-04-05T03:18:11Z BusFactor1: yes
2017-04-05T03:18:24Z BusFactor1: it's a bit differnt, but a lot of the functionality is there
2017-04-05T03:18:43Z whoman: me as well, but emacs is so juicy for prottyping. anything from customize UI to tree views to lisp inspect and elnode/org and other integrations, i would really love it as a home. just missing parenscript
2017-04-05T03:19:19Z BusFactor1: whoman: I know, parenscript in EL would be super useful.
2017-04-05T03:19:44Z newdan: whoman: what makes Elisp better for prototyping than CL?
2017-04-05T03:19:47Z BusFactor1: i've thought of trying to port CL code to EL
2017-04-05T03:19:52Z BusFactor1: but haven't attempted it so far
2017-04-05T03:19:58Z BusFactor1: newdan: the maleability of the interface
2017-04-05T03:20:02Z whoman: i would sacrifice many CL tasties for the emacs 'platform' but i cant still seem to find a suitable solution for parenscript
2017-04-05T03:20:44Z BusFactor1: but one of the first targets would be parenscript for EL
2017-04-05T03:20:57Z BusFactor1 wanders off
2017-04-05T03:20:58Z whoman: newdan, especially how its the default lisp interaction for emacs. and emacs comes with many user interface elements and buffer programmability, for eg. writing little tests and generate images or linking through docs...
2017-04-05T03:22:02Z BusFactor1 see's how difficult that prospect would be for now and comes back
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2017-04-05T03:22:37Z whoman: hmm, well someone has to do it ~_~ i would call it emacscript just saying.
2017-04-05T03:22:42Z whoman looks at parenscript code.. ~_~
2017-04-05T03:22:58Z pillton: pjb: Poll doesn't get the attention it deserves in my opinion. It scales (kqueue, epoll, etc), it can be used to implement synchronous and asynchronous I/O and most importantly, composition is easy.
2017-04-05T03:23:01Z BusFactor1: just not sure if my skills are up to, or time right now
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2017-04-05T03:24:02Z whoman: BusFactor1, me too, i will probably end up that as my main project rather than the one i am trying to work on
2017-04-05T03:24:35Z BusFactor1: good to hear and good luck
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2017-04-05T03:29:43Z nyef: whoman: Ah, "emacscript", just one typo away from "ecmascript". Good naming choice!
2017-04-05T03:30:31Z BusFactor1: :)
2017-04-05T03:32:09Z whoman: hehe yep! =)
2017-04-05T03:32:25Z whoman checks to see if it was pluralised earlier. .
2017-04-05T03:32:45Z whoman: excellent. it was totally intended that way =)
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2017-04-05T03:50:09Z spatial: How does integerp handle nil ?
2017-04-05T03:51:02Z spatial: Returns true if object is of type integer; otherwise, returns false ?
2017-04-05T03:51:43Z nyef: spatial: "handle" in what sense?
2017-04-05T03:52:05Z nyef: NIL is not of type integer, and is the "false" value.
2017-04-05T03:52:36Z whoman: (integerp nil) => nil ...?
2017-04-05T03:53:07Z nyef: Basically, yes. NIL is the one value for which INTEGERP is guaranteed to return its input.
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2017-04-05T03:53:54Z whoman wakes up, that is for most '#<type>p funs
2017-04-05T03:54:11Z nyef: Heh.
2017-04-05T03:54:17Z nyef: Mind DIGIT-CHAR-P.
2017-04-05T03:55:12Z spatial: nyef: Understand it returns nil
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2017-04-05T04:49:43Z pillton: fare: Are you around?
2017-04-05T04:50:08Z pillton: Or rpg?
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2017-04-05T05:21:22Z flip214: so, what's next year's ELS location now?
2017-04-05T05:22:12Z Guest8169: somewhere in spain... marbella?
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2017-04-05T05:22:33Z flip214: ack, thanks
2017-04-05T05:23:02Z Bicyclidine: not a fan?
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2017-04-05T05:29:37Z nyef: At least it's not going to be in orbit around Jupiter. d-:
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2017-04-05T05:30:39Z flip214: Bicyclidine: can't say, never been there yet. but yes, I hoped for a more central location...  but never mind,.
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2017-04-05T05:32:15Z pillton: nyef: That would be fun. I'd like to see the Great Red Spot.
2017-04-05T05:33:09Z pillton: nyef: Or Saturn with the hexagonal clouds.
2017-04-05T05:33:18Z loke: Clearly the proposal of Singapore has not been given nearly the amount of attention it deserves :-)
2017-04-05T05:34:00Z flip214: loke: well, not even hong kong is part of (an extended version of) "Europe" any more, too...
2017-04-05T05:34:50Z nyef: pillton: The problem with attending the Europan Lisp Symposium is getting there in the first place.
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2017-04-05T05:38:40Z Bicyclidine: i think "central location" was the main idea behind brussels
2017-04-05T05:38:59Z Bicyclidine: not that it matters to me, since i had ato cross a damn ocean to get here at all
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2017-04-05T05:43:41Z edgar-rft: a list of several "central locations" to choose from: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_midpoint_of_Europe>
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2017-04-05T05:45:02Z Bicyclidine: monnuste, estonia looking good
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2017-04-05T05:46:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-05T05:50:45Z iago: morning
2017-04-05T05:52:14Z nyef: Hello beach.
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2017-04-05T05:53:39Z beach: nyef: I will still be on my dinky laptop for another few days, so I won't get much done, nor discussed.
2017-04-05T05:54:28Z nyef: beach: That's fine. I have some things to work out on my side anyway.
2017-04-05T05:54:36Z beach: OK.
2017-04-05T05:55:20Z beach: So the message from the organizers of ELS2018 was that people who would like to be hired by Ravenpack could show up early. :)
2017-04-05T05:56:57Z beach: pjb: Didn't you use to live around there for some time?
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2017-04-05T06:15:14Z pjb: beach: I did, almost 10 years ago already.
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2017-04-05T06:16:39Z beach: Wow, time flies.
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2017-04-05T06:18:22Z pjb: Then I went back a few years in Paris, then back a few years in Valencia, then back in Paris again, since a few years :-)
2017-04-05T06:18:40Z beach: I guess you follow the gigs.
2017-04-05T06:18:47Z pjb: Basically, yes :-)
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2017-04-05T07:22:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: linedit and lem, along with a couple little tweaks to .sbclrc makes for an interesting development environment
2017-04-05T07:22:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've set it up so I can put :ef function-designator and open the function's definition in lem
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2017-04-05T10:03:03Z python476: hello sexpers
2017-04-05T10:03:12Z python476: sexperts²
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2017-04-05T10:03:52Z loke: python476: Hello.
2017-04-05T10:04:02Z loke: ExpertSexChange.com
2017-04-05T10:05:29Z python476: loke: thanks, that's what I had on my mind
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2017-04-05T10:07:05Z beach: Hello python476.
2017-04-05T10:07:27Z python476: hi
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2017-04-05T10:11:03Z beach: So, I was very pleased with the reaction by the ELS audience to my talk about the sequence functions.
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2017-04-05T10:12:34Z python476: oh ELs is in progress right
2017-04-05T10:12:34Z python476: what's up there
2017-04-05T10:12:34Z beach: No, it finished last night UTC+1.
2017-04-05T10:12:34Z Bicyclidine: 's motivation to get constant propagation and more branches eliminated and such
2017-04-05T10:12:34Z beach: It was very good.
2017-04-05T10:12:34Z beach: Bicyclidine: I totally agree.
2017-04-05T10:13:15Z beach: Bicyclidine: In fact I was glancing your way when I showed the slide on "future work", but I don't think you noticed. :)
2017-04-05T10:13:20Z Bicyclidine: one of the questions i got forced me to rethink the type descriptors, again, so there's more stuff to consider
2017-04-05T10:13:23Z Bicyclidine: oh sorry
2017-04-05T10:13:33Z beach: No problem.  I'm joking.
2017-04-05T10:14:07Z Bicyclidine: in any case having seen the old sequence function definitions in sicl the use of those macros seems much more fortunate
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2017-04-05T10:14:55Z beach: Bicyclidine: I am very please that there is a competent person taking charge of the entire type aspect.  It is a very important one, so can't be left to your average hacker.
2017-04-05T10:15:13Z beach: Bicyclidine: Yes, definitely.'
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2017-04-05T10:16:29Z beach: As usual, I started off with the ambition to make this stuff faster than anything else, and that strategy backfired.  It took several years to do it in a much better way.
2017-04-05T10:17:08Z beach: The same thing happened with the reader.  There is an incomplete reader that was meant to be ultra fast, but it turned out that the planned approach made it unmaintainable.
2017-04-05T10:17:53Z beach: Now, I think I can use a similar technique that I use with the sequence functions to transform a general, maintainable, and simple reader to a fast one.
2017-04-05T10:20:11Z beach: The ideas for specializing the reader have to do with the read base almost always being 10, the case conversion almost always being to convert to upper case, etc.  The specializer will make that case very fast, or that's the plan.
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2017-04-05T10:20:48Z beach: Hmm, I see an idea for a paper for ELS2018.
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2017-04-05T10:33:51Z beach: Bicyclidine: Do you have any ideas for the item on "future work" that mentioned the possibility of generating a small "main" sequence function that could be inlined, and that would be susceptible to simplification due to type inference, and (automatically) generating named specialized functions for handling each case?
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2017-04-05T10:34:33Z beach: It is entirely possible that some combination with a compiler macro would be needed, but maybe not.
2017-04-05T10:36:02Z beach: The idea is that most call sites will have specific values for the keyword arguments, known at compile time, and that some call sites will have more information about the type of the sequence.
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2017-04-05T10:55:52Z phoe: beach: your papers were very good this year, I enjoyed both of them, especially the one containing the amusing macro
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2017-04-05T11:04:01Z beach: phoe: Thank you!
2017-04-05T11:04:32Z phoe: beach: do you have the third one somewhere?
2017-04-05T11:04:39Z phoe: The one about syntax highlighting IIRC?
2017-04-05T11:04:57Z beach: Incremental-parsing.  Yes, I think I do.  Hold on...
2017-04-05T11:05:22Z phoe: I'll advise you the same thing that I advised jackdaniel - record a video about it and put it on some kind of YouTube.
2017-04-05T11:06:07Z beach: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2017-04-05T11:06:07Z phoe: Basically do the same kind of thing that I do when recording my kraklisp videos - except you will be showing highlighting in Climacs.
2017-04-05T11:06:25Z beach: I might rework it and resubmit nest year.
2017-04-05T11:06:30Z phoe nodnods.
2017-04-05T11:06:36Z beach: ... taking referee reports into account.
2017-04-05T11:06:52Z phoe: I'm curious what the reports were, too.
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2017-04-05T11:07:03Z beach: I was too busy to look in detail.
2017-04-05T11:07:13Z beach: But I will look later when things calm down.
2017-04-05T11:07:32Z beach: I am not very strong on the communication aspect of things.
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2017-04-05T11:07:57Z phoe: I see.
2017-04-05T11:08:03Z Bicyclidine: beach: it sounded interesting but i don't think i really understand it
2017-04-05T11:08:10Z beach: This is particularly true because there are so many naysayers around that I don't feel that I have time to argue with them.
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2017-04-05T11:08:18Z Bicyclidine: re: small main function
2017-04-05T11:08:23Z phoe: But - I can imagine a video that explains your work on incremental parsing.
2017-04-05T11:08:39Z beach: Bicyclidine: Right now, we generate one or two huge functions.
2017-04-05T11:08:42Z phoe: And if I can imagine it, then one can be created.
2017-04-05T11:09:16Z beach: Bicyclidine: They can't reasonably be inlined, because client code will explode in size.
2017-04-05T11:09:18Z Bicyclidine: right, where the (macroexpanded) body is like (if from-end (cond ((eql test #'eql) ... (loop ...)))) right
2017-04-05T11:09:43Z beach: Yes, it is pretty bad wrt size.
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2017-04-05T11:11:19Z beach: So if we could find a way to preserve the approximate way of expressing the functions, but the result would be a small-ish function that could be inlined and that would simplify things at compile time, then we could have faster sequence functions when the sequence is short as well.
2017-04-05T11:12:14Z beach: phoe: The naysayers I am referring to would not change their minds, no matter how much pedagogy I would put into some videos etc.
2017-04-05T11:12:40Z beach: phoe: My time is better spent improving my technique until the naysayers have no arguments left.
2017-04-05T11:13:27Z Bicyclidine: could you give an example?
2017-04-05T11:13:40Z beach: They will continue saying the same things, but their arguments will then sound like faint disagreement heard from a distance.
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2017-04-05T11:13:51Z beach: Bicyclidine: Let's see...
2017-04-05T11:14:08Z beach: Bicyclidine: Do you agree that we can't reasonably inline what we now have?
2017-04-05T11:15:01Z phoe: beach: I don't care about the naysayers, I care about giving your work the recognition it deserves.
2017-04-05T11:15:20Z phoe: And making a video to publish it on places like /r/lisp or Hacker News is going to give you the recognition.
2017-04-05T11:15:24Z Bicyclidine: beach: i mean, i haven't checked, but it seems like it would be a problem yeah.
2017-04-05T11:15:32Z beach: Bicyclidine: Good.
2017-04-05T11:15:56Z beach: Since that's the case, we must test everything at each call.
2017-04-05T11:16:11Z beach: When the sequence is short, those tests will dominate execution time.
2017-04-05T11:16:11Z pillton: beach: This is what specialization store does.
2017-04-05T11:16:34Z beach: pillton: Great!  What part?
2017-04-05T11:17:04Z pillton: The part about specializing based on type information about the sequence.
2017-04-05T11:17:33Z beach: pillton: We do that already.  The current problem is one of maintainability.
2017-04-05T11:17:53Z pillton: Not at compile time.
2017-04-05T11:19:31Z beach: pillton: We need to preserve the structure: (defun find (...) (with-sequence-type (with-vector-type (with-end (with-from-end (with-key (with-test-and-test-not (with-relevant-elements (if (test-passes...) (return element))))))))))
2017-04-05T11:20:16Z beach: pillton: But we need to inline some things when the call site provides compile-time values.
2017-04-05T11:20:33Z pillton: Yep. I am working on something similar at the moment.
2017-04-05T11:20:39Z beach: OK.
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2017-04-05T11:21:48Z beach: phoe: It is wasted energy.  Since the work is not finished, or not even nearly so, and the work to finish it will have to be done either way, the best strategy is to wait until it speaks for itself.
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2017-04-05T11:22:14Z phoe: beach: okay.
2017-04-05T11:23:11Z beach: Bicyclidine: So, if a call site has (find .. :end 234), we would like to inline something that makes half the code disappear.
2017-04-05T11:23:17Z pillton: Specialization store handles the compile time dispatch, naming of specializations and/or inlining and composition part.
2017-04-05T11:24:07Z beach: Bicyclidine: And if the call site has values for :test (could be the default) :key (could be the default) :from-end (could be the default) we might reasonably be able to inline the entire thing without having client code size explode.
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2017-04-05T11:24:55Z beach: pillton: I should definitely look into it to see whether it provides a solution to our problem.
2017-04-05T11:25:03Z Bicyclidine: okay so the end result is... if you have (find ... :end 234) in code, does the object code have just a call to a specialized find function, or is the specialization itself inlined?
2017-04-05T11:25:38Z pillton: I'd argue that a specialized find should be called. Then it can be reused by all.
2017-04-05T11:25:59Z beach: Bicyclidine: It would be reasonable to have a call to a specialized function, provided that function does not again test the END.
2017-04-05T11:26:26Z Bicyclidine: right, by "specialized" i mean the find where it definitely has an end argument
2017-04-05T11:26:37Z beach: Then again, the call might require more code than the inlined loop.
2017-04-05T11:26:48Z beach: Bicyclidine: Right.
2017-04-05T11:27:52Z Bicyclidine: so like (find foo bar) would end up as (|FIND FROM-END=NIL TEST=EQL KEY=IDENTITY NO-END| foo bar 0) or something
2017-04-05T11:28:18Z beach: I don't have a precise idea of the exact result.  But it seems like we always test things that are very likely known at the call site.  And that makes processing short sequences slower.
2017-04-05T11:28:29Z beach: Bicyclidine: Exactly.
2017-04-05T11:28:55Z beach: But without us having to type those strange names ourselves.
2017-04-05T11:29:02Z pillton: The problem with that is that you end up having to do something like this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343288.
2017-04-05T11:29:29Z pillton: I have been working on the automatic name generation this week.
2017-04-05T11:29:51Z Bicyclidine: well, in this particular case we are the compiler, so we can do trickier bullshit than you
2017-04-05T11:30:08Z pillton: But you have the same pattern.
2017-04-05T11:30:10Z Bicyclidine: but yes there's probably some enumeration of cases
2017-04-05T11:30:24Z pillton: The only advantage is that you have a finite number of functions. Users don't.
2017-04-05T11:35:58Z beach: pillton: I see.  I would have to look at an implementation of one of the sequence functions using your approach to determine whether it is more readable than what we currently have.
2017-04-05T11:37:34Z pillton: I haven't read the paper, but I am guessing you wouldn't have to change much.
2017-04-05T11:38:23Z beach: That would be great.
2017-04-05T11:38:33Z pillton: I am currently working on the idea that FIND would be defined as (define-template-function find (...) ..body) which is instantiated according to the types of arguments given to the function.
2017-04-05T11:38:49Z pillton: The instantiations are cached inside a "store" which is provided by specialization store.
2017-04-05T11:39:22Z pillton: So all of your macros would expand to code which invokes other store functions.
2017-04-05T11:39:40Z pillton: Each store function contains a set of specializations specific to the type in question.
2017-04-05T11:39:52Z beach: But would we still have to provide all possible template functions?
2017-04-05T11:40:20Z pillton: You would provide one big template function and then implement the small bits for each sequence type.
2017-04-05T11:40:56Z beach: Define "implement"!
2017-04-05T11:41:09Z beach: It is not only for the sequence type.
2017-04-05T11:41:24Z beach: We have thousands of combinations of special versions.
2017-04-05T11:41:59Z beach: The sequence type, the END value, the FROM-END value, the KEY value, the TEST value, the TEST-NOT value,.
2017-04-05T11:42:37Z pillton: I'd have to look into it in more detail, but specialization store supports dispatching on keyword arguments.
2017-04-05T11:43:04Z beach: Sure, but if we have to type a define-whatever form for each combination, we are back to square one.
2017-04-05T11:43:32Z beach: The point of the paper is that we have a single, maintainable version of a function such as FIND, and the compiler does the rest.
2017-04-05T11:45:04Z beach: So, before we had perhaps 5000 lines of code for all special versions, and now we have 20 lines of code for a single sequence function, and a handful of trivial macros that can be reused in several sequence functions.
2017-04-05T11:47:06Z pillton: All you would have to write is something like what I pasted before.
2017-04-05T11:48:18Z beach: Yeah, well, I didn't understand it.  I would have to look into it some more.
2017-04-05T11:48:42Z beach: But not while I am still on this dinky laptop.
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2017-04-05T11:52:35Z beach: pillton: Maybe the best strategy here would be for you to show that you can do better than we did in the paper.  Then we can turn your result into a new paper for ELS2018 perhaps.
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2017-04-05T11:55:05Z beach: By "we" I meant you yourself as a sole author or you with one or more coauthors of your choice.
2017-04-05T11:55:29Z Bicyclidine: what was the situation again in which the paper technique didn't do better than sbcl (other than bit vectors)
2017-04-05T11:55:33Z Bicyclidine: when stuff is declared, or something?
2017-04-05T11:55:56Z pillton: beach: Something like this http://paste.lisp.org/display/343288#1
2017-04-05T11:55:59Z beach: We don't know of other situations, but I am betting for short sequences.
2017-04-05T11:56:54Z beach: pillton: And I think you are right.  When there is type information available at the call site is also a situation.
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2017-04-05T11:58:49Z beach: pillton: That looks pretty good.  You will get to go to Marbella in 2018.
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2017-04-05T12:00:10Z mm_: hi
2017-04-05T12:00:12Z Bicyclidine: the paper technique basically allows good dispatch without hooks into a code generator, but if the cases can't be specified beforehand it doesn't work, and there's exponential blowup
2017-04-05T12:00:12Z Bicyclidine: so you might end up going back to a code generator
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2017-04-05T12:00:52Z beach: Bicyclidine: Your analysis is correct.  I don't know a good solution.
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2017-04-05T12:01:00Z beach: mm_: Hello.
2017-04-05T12:01:09Z mm_: hello beach
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2017-04-05T12:01:40Z beach: Bicyclidine: I don't think we need all possible combinations.
2017-04-05T12:02:00Z Bicyclidine: don't need, but it would be nice to generate them on the fly
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2017-04-05T12:02:07Z pillton: I'm going to try generating them on the fly.
2017-04-05T12:02:15Z beach: Bicyclidine: Sure, if possible.
2017-04-05T12:02:23Z beach: Bicyclidine: On a typical call site, all the keyword arguments are known.
2017-04-05T12:03:16Z beach: It would be good enough to generate a special case when each keyword argument is known and a different case for the rest, like (apply #'find arguments).
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2017-04-05T12:04:52Z Bicyclidine: yeah, but i mean stuff like having different constant arguments, like a constant :key. having #'car is nice but there's no particular reason to exclude #'cdr and so on; it may be rarer but it would get a boost too
2017-04-05T12:05:35Z Bicyclidine: and there are some more involved examples like converting integer division to shifts and adds that rely on knowing the constant divisor, but obviously you don't want a case for all possible fixnums
2017-04-05T12:05:38Z beach: If you can do it on the fly, it would be great, but I think we can handle almost all cases without such fancy mechanisms.
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2017-04-05T12:06:08Z Bicyclidine: or, what was it. division into multiplication? doesn't matter, i'm sure there's infinite examples of tricky arithmetic like that
2017-04-05T12:06:23Z beach: I am sure you are right.
2017-04-05T12:06:45Z beach: Anyway, I see lots of interesting submissions for Marbella.
2017-04-05T12:06:55Z beach: pillton: I forget, are you a student?
2017-04-05T12:07:03Z pillton: No.
2017-04-05T12:07:09Z beach: Oh, well.
2017-04-05T12:07:21Z pillton: Why?
2017-04-05T12:07:29Z Bicyclidine: cos ELS is cheaper if you are
2017-04-05T12:07:34Z beach: I was thinking, phoe got his trip paid by his university just to present his paper.
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2017-04-05T12:07:45Z Bicyclidine: and that
2017-04-05T12:07:54Z beach: Bicyclidine: I think the flight cost would dominate in the case of pillton.
2017-04-05T12:08:04Z Bicyclidine: well it dominated mine
2017-04-05T12:08:09Z Bicyclidine: dunno where pillton is at all though
2017-04-05T12:08:18Z pillton: Brisbane, Australia
2017-04-05T12:08:23Z beach: Bicyclidine: But you didn't pay it did you?
2017-04-05T12:08:30Z Bicyclidine: Thankfully not
2017-04-05T12:08:37Z pillton: I'd have to talk to my boss.
2017-04-05T12:08:43Z phoe: I also got my flight for real cheap.
2017-04-05T12:08:58Z phoe: Like €90 Poland <=> Brussels.
2017-04-05T12:09:01Z beach: phoe: You are significantly closer than pillton is.
2017-04-05T12:09:09Z phoe: Yes, correc.
2017-04-05T12:09:10Z phoe: t.
2017-04-05T12:09:35Z Bicyclidine: back in undergrad i contributed to a poster that went to a society for neuroscience meeting, and i asked my school advisor about taking a trip and she said the school didn't have enough for any undergrad trips
2017-04-05T12:09:35Z phoe: Brussels <=> Australia is a damn long transoceanic flight.
2017-04-05T12:09:37Z Bicyclidine: very sad
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2017-04-05T12:11:26Z beach: Indeed.  I was very impressed by what phoe managed to do.
2017-04-05T12:11:38Z Bicyclidine: tripadvisor's cheapest from paris to sydney seems to be 1400 euro. nice (not)
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2017-04-05T12:12:13Z beach: Yeah, that's the way it is.
2017-04-05T12:12:33Z pillton: It is a great island (in the middle of nowhere).
2017-04-05T12:13:32Z pillton: I'll let you know how I go with the on the fly stuff for my purposes. Maybe implementing it will generate other ideas.
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2017-04-05T12:14:32Z beach: pillton: Sounds good.  And please start thinking of ELS2018.  With this much time, I am sure you can get a paper in there.  Several people here can help you out.
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2017-04-05T12:15:26Z phoe: Well, there's about ten months left.
2017-04-05T12:15:30Z phoe: A lot of time.
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2017-04-05T12:17:33Z pillton: I have always wanted to submit it (and my other system: chains). I have been working on specialization store for nearly two years.
2017-04-05T12:17:52Z pillton: This is the problem with spare time.
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2017-04-05T12:18:29Z knobo: cl-who is not updated in quicklisp. But it's not a big deal.
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2017-04-05T12:19:17Z knobo: Would have to wait for the next cl-who release, maybe.
2017-04-05T12:19:42Z knobo: Last release was two years ago.
2017-04-05T12:20:28Z pillton: knobo: Have you checked the issues section of quicklisp? Maybe there was something amiss.
2017-04-05T12:20:46Z knobo: I did not check.
2017-04-05T12:22:05Z knobo: I'm anyway using a clone in local-projects
2017-04-05T12:23:33Z beach: pillton: I think if you start working on it early, we could make sure the paper looks like one that might be accepted.  I am thinking you may not have significant experience with stuff like that.
2017-04-05T12:23:59Z beach: pillton: Whereas if you wait until I have deadlines myself, I may be too busy to help much.
2017-04-05T12:24:21Z pillton: beach: I have written scientific papers before, just not for this audience.
2017-04-05T12:24:31Z beach: Ah, that's good.
2017-04-05T12:25:17Z Bicyclidine: it's not much different. assume people know what a cons is instead of assuming they know what a cone snail is, kind of thing
2017-04-05T12:25:49Z beach: True dat.
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2017-04-05T12:29:09Z pillton: Night. Thanks for the chat.
2017-04-05T12:29:19Z beach: 'night pillton.
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2017-04-05T12:30:54Z Xach: knobo: i use the latest release for cl-who. i can switch
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2017-04-05T12:33:04Z ogamita: Well, for each set of reader parameters, we can generate a state machine that will make the reader fast.  We can cache a few of those state machines (or perhaps even all we encounter, usually not all the combinations are used during the life of a lisp image.
2017-04-05T12:33:10Z ogamita: beach: ^
2017-04-05T12:36:23Z beach: ogamita: Yes, of course.  I know how to do that.  I just don't know how to make the source code maintainable.
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2017-04-05T12:37:02Z ogamita: It's something to think about, indeed.
2017-04-05T12:37:05Z beach: ogamita: By the way, how did I manage to miss you at ELS?
2017-04-05T12:37:20Z ogamita: I couldn't come, the current contract was extended to mid May.
2017-04-05T12:37:35Z beach: Oh. :(  That kind of explains it.
2017-04-05T12:38:41Z beach: Well, Marbella then, I hope.
2017-04-05T12:39:26Z ogamita: Yes, more probably.
2017-04-05T12:39:38Z beach: Great!
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2017-04-05T12:51:42Z beach: ogamita: I am glad you have paid gigs, though.
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2017-04-05T13:01:45Z knobo: Xach: It's just a small html5 update for cl-who that I'd like to use.
2017-04-05T13:03:13Z knobo: Xach: Should i do anything to make the switch happen?
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2017-04-05T13:14:48Z beach: Xach: If money is the only thing preventing you from attending ELS, you should let us know.  I am sure a solution could be found.
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2017-04-05T13:18:44Z Xach: knobo: please contact the maintainer about their preferences
2017-04-05T13:19:08Z Xach: beach: It was a combination of things this year. I will keep your offer in mind, thanks.
2017-04-05T13:19:17Z Xach: I always very much enjoy gathering with Lispers.
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2017-04-05T13:24:14Z afidegnum: what's the equivalent of gambitscheme in CL ?
2017-04-05T13:24:25Z phoe: afidegnum: what's gambit scheme?
2017-04-05T13:25:06Z phoe: if it's a compiler that turns Scheme into C and can link with C, then I guess ECL/Embeddable Common Lisp
2017-04-05T13:25:26Z phoe: but you can use CFFI to link with anything from virtually any modern implementation
2017-04-05T13:25:27Z afidegnum: http://gambitscheme.org
2017-04-05T13:25:51Z phoe: afidegnum: okay, but what features does it have that make it outstanding?
2017-04-05T13:26:03Z afidegnum: i m still trying hard to develop android app with ECL but don't know where to start with
2017-04-05T13:26:04Z phoe: because "equivalent on gambitscheme in CL" is a very vague question
2017-04-05T13:26:15Z afidegnum: phoe: yes you are right
2017-04-05T13:26:36Z afidegnum: i m trying to develop an adroid and ios app in CL
2017-04-05T13:26:55Z afidegnum: i came accross ECL
2017-04-05T13:27:03Z afidegnum: but can't find anything hookable
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2017-04-05T13:28:56Z phoe: afidegnum: maybe jackdaniel can help you more
2017-04-05T13:28:58Z phoe: or #ecl
2017-04-05T13:29:12Z ogamita: afidegnum: https://gitlab.com/dto/ecl-android-games-src
2017-04-05T13:30:26Z ogamita: afidegnum: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/  and search for Android.
2017-04-05T13:31:35Z ogamita: afidegnum: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/blob/develop/INSTALL  and search for Android
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2017-04-05T13:32:24Z afidegnum: ok, thanks, let me look into it,
2017-04-05T13:32:37Z afidegnum: does it opengl es as graphic UI ?
2017-04-05T13:32:41Z afidegnum: ogamita: ?
2017-04-05T13:33:27Z warweasle: afidegnum: I just joined but "OpenGL" and "UI" is something I want to have.
2017-04-05T13:33:51Z ogamita: As I explained earlier, no UI for now.  I've got a RPC-thru-pipe based CL->Java FFI ("Listeria");  The simpliest is to implement the UI in java, and the core in Lisp.
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2017-04-05T13:34:31Z ogamita: That said, since OpenGL is used at the C-level (thru JNI from Java), you should be able to do it from Lisp.
2017-04-05T13:34:45Z afidegnum: can we have a conventional platform we can all adapt ?
2017-04-05T13:34:52Z ogamita: For Android UI, it's not possible, you have to do Java since the Android system is implemented in Java.
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2017-04-05T13:35:20Z ogamita: afidegnum: have you had a look at pgl?
2017-04-05T13:35:26Z afidegnum: if we can go straight to c, i believe it can be ok,
2017-04-05T13:35:38Z afidegnum: yes, i was reading about it yesterday but it was hazy
2017-04-05T13:35:44Z ogamita: ok.
2017-04-05T13:35:47Z afidegnum: can you please send the link again ?
2017-04-05T13:36:03Z ogamita: http://cliki.net/pgl and links from there.
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2017-04-05T13:37:11Z afidegnum: well frankly speaking i think there is disparities of libraries, with divergent features where some does not connect,
2017-04-05T13:37:40Z afidegnum: if you look at lambdanative, they did a good job to have definite set,
2017-04-05T13:37:47Z afidegnum: it's the same as kivy in python
2017-04-05T13:37:51Z ogamita: And now Apple is rumoured to be developping its own GPU, it probably won't be OpenGL…
2017-04-05T13:38:01Z afidegnum: we can emulate something like that
2017-04-05T13:38:16Z beach: Xach: OK, good, as long as it's clear to everyone.
2017-04-05T13:38:17Z afidegnum: OpenGL is still supported in IOS 6
2017-04-05T13:38:22Z ogamita: afidegnum: pgl did a good job to have a definite set, and it's the same as SPL in Java.
2017-04-05T13:38:27Z afidegnum: as i read yesterday
2017-04-05T13:39:24Z afidegnum: can we deal with the NDK without passing through the Java's JNI ?
2017-04-05T13:39:26Z ogamita: afidegnum: another definite set is McCLIM, but we don't have any Android backend yet for it.
2017-04-05T13:39:40Z ogamita: http://cliki.net/McCLIM
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2017-04-05T13:41:44Z afidegnum: yes i read of McClim too
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2017-04-05T13:42:52Z afidegnum: if possible, we can define tree of packages, where some implementaton can be ported to multiple platform except those that have their defined structure we can implement custom hook into their APIs
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2017-04-05T13:44:48Z afidegnum: what do you think ?
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2017-04-05T14:10:52Z afidegnum: which opengl packages would you recommend to play with the UI and later can be poted to android?
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2017-04-05T14:16:44Z ogamita: afidegnum: ask in #lispgames ; they know better about opengl.
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2017-04-05T14:19:44Z afidegnum: ok thaks
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2017-04-05T18:25:05Z asdf0987: is there an easy way to see what a package exports? I want to see what I am bringing into scope when I have (:use :blah) in my code
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2017-04-05T18:25:36Z pjb: (package-export-list *p*)
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2017-04-05T18:25:49Z asdf0987: pjb: thank you!
2017-04-05T18:26:29Z pjb: Sorry it's com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:package-exports
2017-04-05T18:26:55Z pjb: SSD is better memory than braincells :-)
2017-04-05T18:27:26Z H4ns: asdf0987: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/m_do_sym.htm
2017-04-05T18:28:16Z jasom: asdf0987: (do-external-symbols (i :some-package) (print i))
2017-04-05T18:29:43Z pjb: asdf0987: oh, if you want interactive: (lspack *p* t)
2017-04-05T18:30:04Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.interactive.interactive:lspack
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2017-04-05T19:39:41Z afidegnum: i read about embeding ECL in c and c++ does it means you need know how to code in C/C++ before you can use ECL ?
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2017-04-05T19:46:26Z varjag: afidegnum: no
2017-04-05T19:46:33Z varjag: if you don't want to embed it of course
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2017-04-05T19:57:55Z prumpilsendaga: I'm trying to use hunchentoot.  If I run code that returns a value inside a 'define-easy-handler', the handler will fail.
2017-04-05T19:59:18Z prumpilsendaga: A non-text value
2017-04-05T20:01:38Z Bicyclidine: are you allowed to do that?
2017-04-05T20:03:30Z pjb: Nope.
2017-04-05T20:04:40Z pjb: You should return some data, in the format specified by (hunchentoot:content-type*) eg. "text/plain" etc.
2017-04-05T20:04:49Z pjb: That is, a string.
2017-04-05T20:05:17Z pjb: I assume a byte vector could be possible if you specify a binary content-type.
2017-04-05T20:05:29Z prumpilsendaga: I was thinking that variable was concerning the request data
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2017-04-05T20:49:41Z presiden: Hello, lisp!
2017-04-05T20:50:08Z White_Flame: Hello, Joe
2017-04-05T20:50:15Z White_Flame: (oh wait, that's Erlang! ;) )
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2017-04-05T21:00:01Z presiden: the movie :)
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2017-04-06T05:29:30Z spatial: http://lpaste.net/354355 Only one of the conditions can be true. Right ?
2017-04-06T05:29:46Z spatial: Default is 0.5
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2017-04-06T05:43:27Z jasom: spatial: yes, COND is an if/else-if construct.  The first condition that evaluates to true is the one that is selected, and the rest are skipped
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2017-04-06T05:44:11Z spatial: jasom: Thanks.
2017-04-06T05:44:40Z jasom: clhs cond
2017-04-06T05:44:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2017-04-06T05:44:43Z spatial: Default is 0.5 ?
2017-04-06T05:45:02Z jasom: spatial: yes, because the condition is "t" which is always true
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2017-04-06T05:50:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-06T05:53:25Z splittist: beach: good morning
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2017-04-06T06:08:24Z Jonsky: The old textbooks would simply use SETF when the authors wanted to define a new variable. But then nowadays sbcl would give me a warning whenever I do this. Is there a reason behind this?
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2017-04-06T06:09:04Z whoman: it must be behind it if we cant see it directly
2017-04-06T06:09:39Z pillton: I remember this being covered in the book Lisp in Small Pieces.
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2017-04-06T06:11:30Z Jonsky: argh, one more book to read...(not enough time for so many good books)
2017-04-06T06:12:26Z pillton: I can't remember the argument supplied in the book, but I'd guess it has something to do with the implementation having to decide which environment the new binding will go in i.e. global, dynamic or lexical.
2017-04-06T06:13:59Z Jonsky: pillton: Thanks. I thought as I wouldn't make another implementation of Lisp I should read that book.
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2017-04-06T06:24:05Z Jonsky: BTW, we have POP for list. Do we have SHIFT like other programming languages? (I know we can do something like (setf list (butlast list)) )
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2017-04-06T06:27:17Z pillton: The Lisp in Small pieces is a good back. I have no interest in writing a CL compiler, but I still learnt a lot. I liked the discussion on eval, macros, denotational semantics, continuation passing style.
2017-04-06T06:27:39Z Bicyclidine: what other languages do you have in mind? "shift" means delimited continuations for me.
2017-04-06T06:27:43Z beach: Jonsky: The Common Lisp HyperSpec requires a variable to be defined before it can be assigned to.  One reason for that is that otherwise, debugging would be made much harder.
2017-04-06T06:27:55Z pillton: good back.. what an idiot. Good book*.
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2017-04-06T06:28:23Z beach: Jonsky: A simple typo would go unnoticed.
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2017-04-06T06:29:30Z Jonsky: beach: aha, now it makes sense. Thanks.
2017-04-06T06:29:46Z Bicyclidine: or rather, what would youe xpect shift to do
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2017-04-06T06:30:10Z Jonsky: pillton: good back is important too. ;)
2017-04-06T06:30:33Z pillton: Bicyclidine: Remove the last element of a list I think.
2017-04-06T06:30:34Z Jonsky: Bicyclidine: Like...(cough) Perl?
2017-04-06T06:30:51Z Jonsky: pillton: yes, and then return that removed element
2017-04-06T06:30:55Z Bicyclidine: i only barely know perl
2017-04-06T06:31:05Z Bicyclidine: well, obviously that operation is hells of inefficient on a linked list
2017-04-06T06:31:15Z Jonsky: I vaguely remember Python has that one too.
2017-04-06T06:31:34Z beach: Jonsky: It used to be the case in languages like Fortran that variables were implicitly declared, so that any identifier starting with I, J, K, L, M, N was assumed to be an integer, and the others were assumed to be floating point, unless an explicit declaration was given.
2017-04-06T06:31:36Z beach: For the same reason as the Common Lisp HyperSpec rule about defining variables, we no longer design programming languages that way.
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2017-04-06T06:32:06Z Bicyclidine: i found a stack overflow question about shift in python, and the first answer is "there's not one built in, and you should use a dedicated deque" which is correct
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2017-04-06T06:32:54Z Jonsky: beach: oh yeah, implicit none.
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2017-04-06T06:33:41Z Bicyclidine: of course, you could make a deque with a resizable array, or with a doubly linked list
2017-04-06T06:34:43Z Jonsky: Just checked. Javascript has that. It's shift is like our POP. And its pop is like our BUTLAST (destructively)
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2017-04-06T06:37:29Z Bicyclidine: also for arrays, if i read correctly
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2017-04-06T08:07:29Z shrdlu68: Sometimes I get errors about constants being redefines while loading an ASDF system for a project I'm working on.
2017-04-06T08:07:50Z loke: shrdlu68: That's caused by incrrect software.
2017-04-06T08:08:05Z loke: You can't redefine a constant unless the new falue is EQL to the old one.
2017-04-06T08:08:07Z loke: value
2017-04-06T08:08:13Z shrdlu68: I know.
2017-04-06T08:08:30Z shrdlu68: The weird thing is, I don't think I'm redefining a constant.
2017-04-06T08:08:42Z shrdlu68: It seems the file is being loaded twice or something.
2017-04-06T08:09:27Z shrdlu68: If I abort the operation, kill the process, and then launch another and load the same system again, all is fine.
2017-04-06T08:09:33Z loke: shrdlu68: Correct. If you defconstant with a value which is a STRING you'll get that
2017-04-06T08:09:45Z loke: that's because two strings with the same content are not EQL
2017-04-06T08:10:03Z loke: so (defconstant +foo+ "some string") is not correct
2017-04-06T08:10:28Z shrdlu68: loke: Same applies for vectors and arrays?
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2017-04-06T08:11:01Z loke: shrdlu68: Yes.
2017-04-06T08:11:20Z shrdlu68: Ah, I see.
2017-04-06T08:11:40Z shrdlu68: I wasn't getting the error while loading everything manually, though.
2017-04-06T08:11:52Z shrdlu68: It started happening when I started using ASDF.
2017-04-06T08:15:30Z loke: The semantics of DEFCONSTANT is a bit difficult to work with.
2017-04-06T08:16:09Z loke: I'd recommend you using DEFPARAMETER instead. Unless of course you need the inlining that DEFCONSTANT gives you.
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2017-04-06T08:21:00Z okflo`: shrdlu68: there is also define-constant in alexandria, where you can supply your own test-function, other than eql
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2017-04-06T08:28:53Z shrdlu68: okflo`: Cool, think I'll use that.
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2017-04-06T08:31:37Z jackdaniel: some refinements to clim-debugger: http://imgur.com/knIHR42l.png , still wip
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2017-04-06T08:49:23Z mazoe: phoe: nice initiative with the ultraspec
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2017-04-06T08:52:52Z otwieracz: Hi!
2017-04-06T08:53:06Z otwieracz: I've got some issue with Drakma. I have no idea how to handle URL escaping here.
2017-04-06T08:53:21Z otwieracz: The issue is that I've got URL with "" inside.
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2017-04-06T08:53:32Z otwieracz: (drakma:http-request "https://foobar.slack.com/api/search.all?query=users&query=\"password\"&token=foobar")
2017-04-06T08:53:50Z otwieracz: this crashes PURI.
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2017-04-06T08:54:01Z otwieracz: Illegal character ". That's fine.
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2017-04-06T08:54:53Z otwieracz: But when I escape it to %22, then PURI is changing % to %25.
2017-04-06T08:55:04Z otwieracz: So I end up with %2522password%2522
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2017-04-06T09:07:22Z otwieracz: I think that's what happend, actually: > (drakma:url-encode (puri:uri-query (puri:parse-uri "https://foobar.slack.com/api/search.all?query=users&query=%22password%22&token=foobar")) :utf-8)
2017-04-06T09:07:34Z otwieracz: "query%3Dusers%26query%3D%2522password%2522%26token%3Dfoobar"
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2017-04-06T09:53:53Z okflo`: otwieracz: drakma provides the &key parameter for a function as url-encoder, perhaps you can intercept there and handle the " with your own function?
2017-04-06T09:54:12Z okflo`: (wild and quick guess)
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2017-04-06T10:27:04Z otwieracz: discussion went in the issue on github already
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2017-04-06T10:29:38Z beach: jackdaniel: Nice work with the CLIM debugger.
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2017-04-06T11:52:24Z shrdlu68: Xach: The new ironclad release (0.34) does not appear to be on quicklisp yet.
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2017-04-06T12:19:12Z Xach: shrdlu68: I think perhaps it was not released in its usual tarball place.
2017-04-06T12:19:26Z Xach: shrdlu68: If you open a github issue on quicklisp-projects, it will help me remember to update the location
2017-04-06T12:19:46Z shrdlu68: Ok.
2017-04-06T12:23:37Z phoe: mazoe: thanks!
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2017-04-06T13:20:45Z drmeister: I'm not happy with my Common Lisp programming style - functions scattered across files and packages.
2017-04-06T13:20:59Z drmeister: Can anyone recommend any good guides?
2017-04-06T13:22:18Z drmeister: With C++ you do one .h file containing one or more class definitions and then a .cc file to contain the methods for that class.
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2017-04-06T13:23:07Z drmeister: In Smalltalk there are no files, methods are associated with classes.
2017-04-06T13:23:09Z spatial: I have a question. Asked many forums
2017-04-06T13:24:31Z spatial: http://lpaste.net/354362 Let's say X-locations is 1 and O-locations is also 1. What is the total output by the code ?
2017-04-06T13:24:34Z drmeister: In CL it feels like things should be organized in packages.
2017-04-06T13:25:00Z spatial: I get 1026 but I coded that in haskell. What is the lisp code actually doing ?
2017-04-06T13:25:07Z dlowe: drmeister: You could do the same in lisp.  Have an interface file with defpackage and the exported functions, special variable declarations and the like
2017-04-06T13:25:25Z dlowe: then have one or more "implementation" files
2017-04-06T13:25:37Z dlowe: maybe one package per subdirectory
2017-04-06T13:25:50Z drmeister: So the interface file is like a header file. Hmm
2017-04-06T13:25:53Z p_l: drmeister: some people promote one package per file, I'm used to traditional "package.lisp" in a directory that handles package definition and exports, and thematic files for various compile units
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2017-04-06T13:26:37Z drmeister: I tried one package per file - it feels messy.
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2017-04-06T13:27:08Z dlowe: there was a build system that used the one package per file to build a dependency graph. That was kind of neat.
2017-04-06T13:27:18Z dlowe: but yeah, I don't like it either.
2017-04-06T13:27:56Z spatial: make-array (* 512 512)  Moreover trying to understand what dimensions  these are. 0 to 512 * 512  ?
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2017-04-06T13:29:15Z phoe: spatial: uh, wait
2017-04-06T13:29:22Z phoe: (make-array (* 512 512))
2017-04-06T13:29:45Z phoe: this makes a single-dimensional array that is 262144 objects long
2017-04-06T13:29:46Z spatial: Yes
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2017-04-06T13:30:05Z phoe: so yes, indexes 0 to 262143
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2017-04-06T13:30:54Z spatial: phoe: Could you take a look at that lpaste code ?
2017-04-06T13:32:51Z spatial: Let's say X-locations is 1 and O-locations is also 1.
2017-04-06T13:35:39Z phoe: spatial: I cannot concentrate enough, I'm afraid
2017-04-06T13:35:44Z phoe: the Symposium and the trip back home wore me out.
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2017-04-06T13:35:59Z spatial: phoe: :-)
2017-04-06T13:36:05Z phoe: spatial: uh, wiat
2017-04-06T13:36:16Z phoe: what is the total output by the code
2017-04-06T13:36:19Z phoe: cannot you, like, uh
2017-04-06T13:36:20Z phoe: run it?
2017-04-06T13:37:27Z spatial: phoe: Don't have spacemacs setup for that ? Can run online ?
2017-04-06T13:38:58Z phoe: spatial: I think you can, there is a place which runs common lisp online
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2017-04-06T13:40:08Z phoe: spatial: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/execute_lisp_online.php
2017-04-06T13:40:32Z spatial: http://rextester.com/l/common_lisp_online_compiler
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2017-04-06T13:41:18Z phoe: spatial: yes, sure
2017-04-06T13:43:34Z jdz: spatial: x-locations and o-locations are expected to be lists;
2017-04-06T13:43:53Z jdz: Also -- why does the powers-of-2 start with a NIL?
2017-04-06T13:44:21Z spatial: jdz: Yes
2017-04-06T13:44:29Z jdz: I'd personally replace all references to (aref powers-of-2 l) to (expt 2 l).
2017-04-06T13:46:48Z spatial: print (state-index (1) (1))       Is that right ?
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2017-04-06T13:47:01Z jdz: No.
2017-04-06T13:48:01Z jdz: spatial: what is the code supposed to do?
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2017-04-06T13:50:26Z ogamita: jdz: aref is faster than expt, unless l is small.
2017-04-06T13:50:42Z lpaste: jdz annotated “No title” with “slight rewrite” at http://lpaste.net/354362#a354363
2017-04-06T13:51:15Z jdz: ogamita: have you tried?
2017-04-06T13:51:34Z ogamita: Here, l is small since it's up to 10, so definitely expt!
2017-04-06T13:51:35Z jdz: ogamita: we're talking about powers of 2 here.
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2017-04-06T13:52:57Z jdz: Haskell was mentioned, so I seriously doubt larger than 64-bit numbers are involved.
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2017-04-06T13:54:54Z spatial: The comment is this. X gets the  ; first (low-order) nine bits, O the second nine.
2017-04-06T13:55:21Z nyef: dlowe: At least three build systems that I'm aware of use one-package-per-file to build the dependency graph.
2017-04-06T13:55:42Z shrdlu68: I don't like this business about all source files containing a license. I find it distracting.
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2017-04-06T13:56:45Z phoe: shrdlu68: welcome to GNU recommended practices for free software
2017-04-06T13:56:55Z nyef: dlowe: Admittedly, one is not publicly distributed, one is ASDF's package-inferred-system, and one was rather older and I forget the name.
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2017-04-06T13:57:30Z dlowe: that last one is probably the one I'm thinking of
2017-04-06T13:57:38Z spatial: print (state-index (1) (1))     How else should I test it ? Using online repl
2017-04-06T13:57:46Z _death: xcvb?
2017-04-06T13:57:55Z nyef: shrdlu68: phoe: Just remember the advice that the Linux kernel coding style guide gives in regards to the GNU coding standards. d-:
2017-04-06T13:58:48Z jdz: spatial: if you have a repl, you just type in (state-index '(1) '(1)) (as I've shown in my annotation).
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2017-04-06T14:00:19Z spatial: jdz: Using http://rextester.com/l/common_lisp_online_compiler
2017-04-06T14:01:02Z drmeister: Does anyone know what is involved in supporting slime-edit-uses?  Is it a huge can of worms?
2017-04-06T14:01:18Z jdz: spatial: use (print (state-index '(1) '(1))) then.
2017-04-06T14:01:40Z nyef: drmeister: I'd expect that it requires xref data, but other than that it's probably fairly straightforward.
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2017-04-06T14:03:10Z drmeister: You need the source locations of every use of a symbol and a classification of how it is used - right?
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2017-04-06T14:04:59Z nyef: Something like that, I'm really not sure.
2017-04-06T14:05:22Z nyef: (Largely because I don't use SLIME these days.)
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2017-04-06T14:08:22Z shrdlu68: nyef: Hehe, nice read.
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2017-04-06T14:14:11Z dlowe: nyef: oh, what are you using?
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2017-04-06T14:14:28Z jdz: spatial: you mean the numbers in argument lists can be from 0 to 512?  And the Haskell code is doing calculations with 2^512?
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2017-04-06T14:16:46Z jdz: spatial: OK, I got confused for a bit, because you said "lower order nine bits"; but then the powers-of-two array was only 10 elements, not 512 :/
2017-04-06T14:17:21Z jdz: Something's definitely off.
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2017-04-06T14:22:58Z nyef: dlowe: Typically, emacs and SBCL, just without any integration between the two.
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2017-04-06T14:55:41Z drmeister: Fair enough - I'm using jupyter notebooks (the new hotness) for users and slime for development.
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2017-04-06T14:56:27Z loke```: drmeister: WHat is that?
2017-04-06T14:56:45Z drmeister: http://jupyter.org
2017-04-06T14:57:03Z drmeister: It's like Mathematica notebooks - but without that annoying guy Wolfram.
2017-04-06T14:58:01Z loke```: I see. That's an advantage, regardless of what you're ctually doing :-)
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2017-04-06T14:58:18Z drmeister: I'm deploying Cando (Clasp Common Lisp + Chemistry code) using Docker    https://hub.docker.com/r/drmeister/cando/
2017-04-06T14:58:20Z loke```: Every time I see anything about him I get this impression that he is an utter arsehole.
2017-04-06T14:58:42Z drmeister: All you need is Docker, that image in the link and a browser.
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2017-04-06T14:59:45Z drmeister: This way I don't have to convince people to swallow emacs.
2017-04-06T15:00:39Z drmeister: Once we add jupyter widgets to cl-jupyter (this summer hopefully) we will be able to do interactive graphics within jupyter notebooks written in Common Lisp.
2017-04-06T15:01:05Z drmeister: I'm hiring an undergraduate to work on it.
2017-04-06T15:02:38Z drmeister: Frederic Peschanski (who wrote cl-jupyter) gave a lightning talk at ELS - I haven't seen it yet but I'm looking forward to it.
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2017-04-06T15:22:23Z warweasle: drmeister: Very cool stuff. I'll have to look at this more later...when I'm doing getting schooled by borodust. ;)
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2017-04-06T18:29:42Z afidegnum: hello, which one is the stable to use? CLIM II or McCLIM ?
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2017-04-06T18:32:13Z gabriel_laddel_p: afidegnum: I have heard via phf that CLIM 2 (when you get it to build on allegro) is actually faster
2017-04-06T18:32:23Z gabriel_laddel_p: afidegnum: but if you want something that works today -- McCLIM
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2017-04-06T18:33:53Z afidegnum: what's the latest stable release of CLIM2 ?
2017-04-06T18:34:00Z afidegnum: can it be used in production?
2017-04-06T18:35:45Z phoe: afidegnum: #clim might help you better, but - the one released by Franz seems to be the oldest one
2017-04-06T18:35:52Z phoe: mayhaps it has some forks, I don't really know.
2017-04-06T18:36:47Z afidegnum: is clim paid or free?
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2017-04-06T18:41:15Z oleo: clim is not free
2017-04-06T18:41:18Z oleo: mcclim is
2017-04-06T18:41:50Z phoe: actually
2017-04-06T18:41:59Z phoe: clim2 was released under a rather liberal license
2017-04-06T18:42:01Z phoe: as of late
2017-04-06T18:42:09Z oleo: it's free as long as you use it personally ?
2017-04-06T18:42:21Z phoe: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2/blob/master/LICENSE
2017-04-06T18:42:21Z oleo: i'd assume at least
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2017-04-06T18:42:48Z phoe: isn't it, uh, MIT license?
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2017-04-06T18:44:28Z afidegnum: so clim2 is free,right?
2017-04-06T18:45:03Z phoe: yes, looks like it.
2017-04-06T18:46:37Z afidegnum: can it be distributed via .exe ?
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2017-04-06T18:48:50Z phoe: afidegnum: it depends more on an implementation than a library like CLIM.
2017-04-06T18:49:05Z phoe: it most likely can when you build a Lisp image using buildapp for example.
2017-04-06T18:49:35Z afidegnum: ok
2017-04-06T18:50:22Z phoe: but then again, I guess any library can be built into an .exe like that
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2017-04-06T18:50:54Z afidegnum: what i need now is a stable opengl /es library which can be ported to android,  up to now, i can't find anything more descriptive i can lay my hand on yet
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2017-04-06T19:01:30Z afidegnum: which GUI tool do you use often?
2017-04-06T19:02:55Z phoe: CommonQT and QTools I think
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2017-04-06T19:06:37Z afidegnum: phoe: what do you think of http://marijnhaverbeke.nl/cl-tk/ ?
2017-04-06T19:09:38Z phoe: afidegnum: I've heard about it, I think it should work
2017-04-06T19:10:13Z afidegnum: we need to have a standard robust library,
2017-04-06T19:10:34Z afidegnum: so much division making work difficult as to the right library to choose
2017-04-06T19:12:17Z afidegnum: phoe: sorry, it was rather this i was referring to LTK
2017-04-06T19:13:29Z phoe: afidegnum: ha, correct.
2017-04-06T19:13:36Z phoe: UI is not the strongest point of Common Lisp.
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2017-04-06T19:14:32Z warweasle: phoe: We have emacs. I think they quit while they were ahead.
2017-04-06T19:15:50Z afidegnum: i believe a UI supposed to have a C binding, right ?
2017-04-06T19:16:02Z phoe: warweasle: emacs? What do you mean?
2017-04-06T19:16:36Z warweasle: phoe: Emacs can be used as a gui.
2017-04-06T19:17:14Z warweasle: phoe: I have a theory that emacs really wants to be a lisp os.
2017-04-06T19:17:52Z afidegnum: warweasle: no
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2017-04-06T19:20:00Z presiden: Hello, Lisp!
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2017-04-06T19:20:56Z phoe: presiden: hey!
2017-04-06T19:21:08Z phoe: warweasle: it is a gui, yes, but meant for the programmers themselves.
2017-04-06T19:21:29Z phoe: I cannot imagine one of my users being exposed to Emacs as the frontend GUI of my application.
2017-04-06T19:23:48Z phoe: And while I think that Genera had many ingenious features for its graphical user interface that I can steal for my own programs, I cannot imagine Emacs as the implementation of these ideas.
2017-04-06T19:27:18Z warweasle: I'm amazed we are using html to build gui's. It seems so hackish.
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2017-04-06T19:28:30Z JuanDaugherty: it's your perception, not an objective reality, desktop and web are diff
2017-04-06T19:29:45Z JuanDaugherty: one is not good and the other evil, one elegant the other a hack
2017-04-06T19:30:56Z phoe: warweasle: hackish, but it's the only language that is commonly understood by all of modern virtual machines
2017-04-06T19:31:00Z phoe: s/virtual machines/browsers/
2017-04-06T19:31:22Z JuanDaugherty: since web works on desktop but the reverse is false, nature takes its course
2017-04-06T19:32:25Z warweasle: phoe: But it was made to be a markup language. It could have just as easily been laTex or elisp.
2017-04-06T19:32:58Z JuanDaugherty: and actually emacs is just a UI, char mode when an actual GUI is missing and more char mode when it's not. more like curses
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2017-04-06T19:34:00Z JuanDaugherty: some actual graphics pkg running under it notwithstanding
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2017-04-06T20:43:20Z p_l: phoe: interestingly enough, Amazon used Emacs as GUI for quite a long time
2017-04-06T20:43:29Z p_l: (for internal, non-programmer tools)
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2017-04-06T20:44:27Z p_l: btw, anyone has a runnable mezzano image?
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2017-04-06T21:05:03Z unbalancedparen: hi
2017-04-06T21:05:13Z unbalancedparen: are you aware of any lisp language on the llvm?
2017-04-06T21:05:37Z mood: unbalancedparen: I know of Clasp: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/
2017-04-06T21:06:36Z unbalancedparen: yeah i have seen it but i am looking for something more scheme or simple
2017-04-06T21:06:44Z unbalancedparen: mood: did you use it?
2017-04-06T21:07:08Z mood: It's in heavy development (on a separate branch) and not particularly stable, though.
2017-04-06T21:07:34Z mood: I've used it to the extent of having built it and having loaded some stuff from Quicklisp
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2017-04-06T21:10:05Z drmeister: The only scheme I've seen implemented in llvm is the one that starts up julia.
2017-04-06T21:10:14Z drmeister: Write your own.
2017-04-06T21:10:30Z drmeister: Scheme implementations can be knocked out in a couple of days.
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2017-04-06T21:35:03Z unbalancedparen: i don't know much about how to implement it using llvm
2017-04-06T21:35:08Z unbalancedparen: but yeah, i will probably do that
2017-04-06T21:35:17Z unbalancedparen: i got a few projects in rust to finish before
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2017-04-06T22:22:31Z jasom: technically, any lisp that uses C as an IL would use llvm when clang is the compiler.
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2017-04-06T22:59:11Z rpg: SLIME question: does anyone else have this completion problem? I complete "foo-", get a pane with "foo-bar" and "foo-baz" and when I select the former, I end up with "foo-foo-bar" instead of "foo-bar"?
2017-04-06T22:59:28Z rpg: I.e., the entire text of the completion is added, instead of just the correct suffix.
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2017-04-06T23:00:40Z |3b| does
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2017-04-06T23:05:27Z rpg: |3b|: Thanks; that means it's (probably) not just me having SLIME misconfigured.
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2017-04-06T23:08:03Z pillton: Hey rpg. Have you got five minutes?
2017-04-06T23:08:16Z rpg: pillton: sure
2017-04-06T23:08:18Z rpg: what about?
2017-04-06T23:08:23Z pillton: ASDF.
2017-04-06T23:08:46Z pillton: I have a configuration system which loads lisp files before and/or after a system is compiled/loaded.
2017-04-06T23:08:51Z rpg: pillton: I'll try -- I haven't been ASDFing that much lately (because sick).
2017-04-06T23:09:21Z rpg: pillton: This is something that ASDF should possibly support out of the box, but doesn't.....
2017-04-06T23:10:16Z pillton: Oh right. I was going to ask how I can do it because http://paste.lisp.org/display/343662 isn't working properly.
2017-04-06T23:10:50Z pillton: There are configuration files that need to be evaluated before a system is compiled.
2017-04-06T23:12:01Z rpg: OK, I think what you need is to specialize PREPARE-OP instead of doing this.
2017-04-06T23:12:34Z rpg: either make a method on PERFORM PREPARE-OP, or add DEPENDS-ON....
2017-04-06T23:13:12Z pillton: Ok thanks. I'll give that a go over the weekend.
2017-04-06T23:13:16Z rpg: The thing that's so hard to remember is that the PERFORM of COMPILE-OP (or any other OP) on a SYSTEM is called *after* PERFORM COMPILE-OP is called on all of the children.
2017-04-06T23:13:45Z pillton: Yeah, that is what I saw when I traced component-depends-on.
2017-04-06T23:13:53Z rpg: That's a kind of odd semantics -- intuitively, you would think about the compile-op of the system as being wrapped around the compile-ops of its components, but in fact that's not the way ASDF works.
2017-04-06T23:14:16Z rpg: Instead, every system op is called in POST-order -- after all the components.
2017-04-06T23:14:59Z rpg: Fare added the PREPARE-OP, I think specifically for this reason... although that doesn't seem quite right.
2017-04-06T23:15:26Z pillton: I think it is a feature that deserves to be included in ASDF.
2017-04-06T23:15:28Z rpg: This is something I constantly re-discover -- how to do something *before* all the operations on a system.
2017-04-06T23:16:01Z rpg: I wish that the ASDF plan was tree-shaped, instead of linear, but it would have broken way too much stuff for us to have changed it.
2017-04-06T23:16:12Z pillton: Such a feature would stop people from inserting (cffi:use-foreign-library) as a top level form.
2017-04-06T23:16:41Z pillton puts up more posters.
2017-04-06T23:16:50Z rpg: I *think* fare also added hooks, but I've never used them -- I wrestled through this before he did that, and I've never gone back and cleaned my systems up.
2017-04-06T23:17:17Z pillton: No worries. How can I make it a todo item? :)
2017-04-06T23:17:30Z pillton: Beer? Wine? Scotch?
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2017-04-06T23:18:16Z rpg: There's an AROUND-COMPILE-HOOK, but it would really be better to have arbitrary hooks around operations on entire systems.
2017-04-06T23:19:02Z pillton: Yeah. Adding around,before,after methods doesn't make sense as that restricts ASDF too.
2017-04-06T23:19:25Z rpg: and it's hard to add an AROUND method that is around, e.g., all of the compiles of a system.
2017-04-06T23:19:51Z rpg: I'm pretty sure Fare added a way to do that, but heck if I can remember how.  Hang on -- I should be able to find a system where I did something like that.
2017-04-06T23:22:26Z pillton: Sorry to hear you are unwell.
2017-04-06T23:25:41Z rpg: I'm much better now, but I was very sick for about 4 months, and am still getting back on my feet.
2017-04-06T23:27:17Z pillton: That is great.
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2017-04-06T23:30:44Z rpg: Another slime oddity -- I have (in-package :shop2) at the head of my file, and SLIME is failing trying to set the package to ":shop2" instead of "SHOP2".  Seems weird; hadn't seen that before.
2017-04-06T23:33:29Z rpg: Looks like the INTERACTIVE form in slime-repl-set-package isn't doing what's expected.....
2017-04-06T23:34:12Z rpg: failing in sync-package-and-default-directory, even though the package in the mode line is correct.
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2017-04-06T23:44:35Z rpg: interesting... seems like having the package in the mode line is somehow messing up SLIME....
2017-04-06T23:44:47Z jasom: rpg: I specialize PERFORM COMPILE-OP when I need something done after all the source is compiled, so you're right that it can't be changed at this point
2017-04-06T23:45:22Z rpg: jasom: you mean you specialize PERFORM COMPILE-OP SYSTEM, right
2017-04-06T23:45:22Z jasom: s/source/source for a system/
2017-04-06T23:45:27Z jasom: rpg: right
2017-04-06T23:46:07Z rpg: You can do an around method for PERFORM COMPILE-OP for the components, but it's not really what you want if you want, e.g., a single, evolving dynamic variable wrapped around the whole mess.
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2017-04-06T23:46:23Z rpg: There is a way to do this, which I've forgotten, and which should be in the FAQ, but isn't
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2017-04-07T01:37:17Z pmc: If I have a declaim statement: (declaim (single-flot xc)) on line 10 and a let* ((xc (x c))) statment on lines 11 and 12; Does the declaim still work (or does the declaim need to follow the definition of xc somehow)?
2017-04-07T01:37:45Z nyef: Hrm...
2017-04-07T01:37:47Z nyef: clhs declaim
2017-04-07T01:37:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm
2017-04-07T01:38:36Z nyef: I note that you must also have done a (declaim (declaration single-flot)), or subjected the actual code to a spell-check at some point.
2017-04-07T01:39:25Z pmc: oh, should be (declaim (single-float xc))
2017-04-07T01:40:08Z nyef: And... the question is, does xc have a global variable binding?
2017-04-07T01:40:27Z pmc: nyef: no. It is bound in the let* that follows the declaim.
2017-04-07T01:40:57Z nyef: I would argue that the declaim should still "work", in a sense, but that it should actually generate a STYLE-WARNING.
2017-04-07T01:41:23Z nyef: And that the LET, introducing a new binding for a non-special (lexical) variable is unaffected by the DECLAIM.
2017-04-07T01:41:53Z nyef: You might try (LET ((XC (X C))) (DECLARE (SINGLE-FLOAT XC)) ...)
2017-04-07T01:42:20Z pmc: is declare the same as declaim in this case?
2017-04-07T01:42:24Z nyef: (And now I want to (DECLAIM (AERO-FLOT some-variable)).)
2017-04-07T01:43:13Z pmc: hmm, I will try that let, thanks
2017-04-07T01:43:22Z nyef: No, DECLAIM is a macro that wraps PROCLAIM, which affects the global environment. DECLARE affects a lexical environment.
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2017-04-07T01:43:33Z pmc: oh, ok.
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2017-04-07T01:44:47Z nyef: Also, DECLARE is only valid in specific places, while DECLAIM and PROCLAIM are valid more generally (being source forms rather than declaration forms), but are less often useful.
2017-04-07T01:45:38Z nyef: ... I probably shouldn't say that they are less often useful, but they are serve a related but different purpose.
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2017-04-07T01:48:09Z pmc: your are right, CLISP complains about the declare being in the wrong spot.
2017-04-07T01:48:37Z pmc: oh, I have it in the wrong spot, porbably :)
2017-04-07T01:49:04Z nyef: Within a LET, the DECLARE must be the first form (or forms) after the bindings.
2017-04-07T01:52:10Z pmc: its tricky because I am using a LET* that looks like this: (let* ((xc (x c)) (n (calculation involving xc)) (body of let*)).  Maybe the declaim is working, perhaps disassemble will tell me if sing-floats are being used.
2017-04-07T01:54:11Z nyef: In this case, the DECLARE should affect XC if it appears after the binding and otherwise before the body.
2017-04-07T01:54:43Z nyef: Alternately, you could use (LET ((XC ...)) (DECLARE ...) (LET ((N ...)) ...))
2017-04-07T01:55:13Z pmc: ok, I will try the latter. thanks
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2017-04-07T01:57:52Z nyef: Using DISASSEMBLE to see at least the first level effects of declarations is a good idea, however, both to familiarize yourself with how things tend to work with your implementation and with Common Lisp in general, and whenever you're doing anything particularly tricky.
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2017-04-07T02:00:55Z nyef: Depending on how whichever implementation you use works, I expect that there is a good chance that the LET and LET* versions of your example could have identical disassembly.
2017-04-07T02:01:54Z nyef: Some implementations have no support for type declarations, and these would show no effect in the disassembly from having declared a type.
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2017-04-07T02:12:34Z pmc: the code runs .10 seconds slower with the declares... go figure :)
2017-04-07T02:13:45Z pmc: alright, thanks for the help nyef
2017-04-07T02:14:13Z nyef: You're welcome. And feel free to try out SBCL instead of CLISP some time. (-:
2017-04-07T02:14:45Z pmc: yeah, I have tried SBCL but it hates my code and always prints out style warnings when I load files... I don't like that. :)
2017-04-07T02:15:15Z pmc: otoh, clisp is rather terse.
2017-04-07T02:15:40Z nyef: Dare I suggest that SBCL might be printing out style warnings for good reason?
2017-04-07T02:18:00Z pmc: hehe, I think it was because I orderd my functions so I had foward references of functions calls.
2017-04-07T02:18:48Z nyef: Shouldn't matter within a file, though...?
2017-04-07T02:19:13Z nyef: Failing that, you might be able to shut it up via FTYPE proclamations.
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2017-04-07T02:26:39Z pmc: clhs ftype
2017-04-07T02:26:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_ftype.htm
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2017-04-07T02:28:08Z pmc: great, they are like C function prototypes.  I will try that the next time I use sbcl.
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2017-04-07T02:30:00Z jsnell: you'll get those warnings with (load "foo.lisp"). you won't get them with (load (compile-file "foo.lisp"))
2017-04-07T02:32:32Z nyef: Ahh... And that could, presumably, also affect clisp runtimes for things.
2017-04-07T02:32:42Z nyef: ... Hello jsnell.
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2017-04-07T02:35:39Z pmc: ah, ok -- yeah sbcl seemed a little picky to me.  It didn't like it when I had a with-open-file form without a :if-exists :supersede keyword.  CLISP doesn't comlain.  Not to say the SBCL is worse than CLISP, but they are different.
2017-04-07T02:39:42Z nyef: Mmm. Persnickety compilers can be a hassle... and a boon.
2017-04-07T02:41:05Z nyef: "This isn't right!" "This isn't right!" "This isn't right!"... And yet, it often *isn't* right, though not necessarily in ways that are important in the moment.
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2017-04-07T02:45:56Z loke: Hello
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2017-04-07T04:16:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-07T04:22:36Z shaftoe: morn
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2017-04-07T04:24:14Z nyef: Hello beach.
2017-04-07T04:26:05Z beach: nyef: I'll be on a strange schedule for another few days.
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2017-04-07T04:28:16Z nyef: beach: That's fine. Right now I'm doing background reading anyway.
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2017-04-07T04:29:39Z nyef: (Ye gods are some of the examples used in oldish papers downright demented. "Let's have the ability to embed top level windows in a spreadsheet cell", "the cells of a spreadsheet are all the same width and all the same height", and so on.)
2017-04-07T04:31:09Z beach: OK, we'll pick up the discussion when we are both ready.
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2017-04-07T04:36:08Z beach: I am currently debugging some quirks of the incremental Common Lisp parser in Second Climacs.  At the same time, I am trying to determine how much information can be given to the user without compiling the top-level forms.
2017-04-07T04:37:46Z beach: Clearly, computing indentation requires knowledge about the kind of form that is being indented, which requires macro expansion and recursive processing, so converting to a Cleavir AST should do the trick.
2017-04-07T04:39:08Z beach: The AST should also be enough to determine the role of each symbol, i.e., whether it is the variable of a binding, a reference to a lexical variable/function, to a global function, etc.
2017-04-07T04:39:40Z nyef: ... bloody insane metalevel idiocy not actually made explicit in the system specification. /-:
2017-04-07T04:40:00Z beach: Heh.
2017-04-07T04:40:16Z beach: For more complex stuff like DU and UD chains, it is best to have the HIR version of the forms.
2017-04-07T04:40:17Z nyef: All the various "is mixed into" bits in the CLIM spec are because Silica classes are *dynamically constructed*?!?
2017-04-07T04:40:35Z beach: Oh, I didn't know that.
2017-04-07T04:40:41Z nyef: Yeah, neither did I.
2017-04-07T04:41:00Z nyef: "Implementation Reflection in Silica", http://extras.springer.com/2000/978-3-540-67660-7/papers/0512/05120251.pdf
2017-04-07T04:41:17Z nyef: Linked from the Wikipedia page on CLIM.
2017-04-07T04:41:35Z nyef: Appendix A, on the last page, is pretty much the smoking gun.
2017-04-07T04:41:41Z nyef: ... Or maybe smoking weed.
2017-04-07T04:42:25Z nyef: No wonder the spec is virtually uninterpretable in places if they were leaving things like this out.
2017-04-07T04:43:43Z beach: Yeah.  Silica itself is not in the spec, so if there are things in the spec that depend on it, that would be weird sounding.
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2017-04-07T04:44:27Z nyef: That's just it: About a third of the spec *is* Silica. Just not nearly enough of Silica to be able to figure out what's going on.
2017-04-07T04:46:14Z loke: What is Silica?
2017-04-07T04:46:37Z beach: nyef: I take your word for it.  I never really looked into Silica as a separate entity.
2017-04-07T04:47:06Z nyef: loke: It's chapters 3 through 14 of the CLIM II spec, plus a whole pile of stuff that's *not* in the spec, but sortof implicitly required.
2017-04-07T04:48:11Z nyef: beach: Have you ever looked at the franzinc clim2 code, btw?
2017-04-07T04:48:21Z beach: Nope, sorry.
2017-04-07T04:48:28Z beach: Can you summarize?
2017-04-07T04:49:06Z nyef: I didn't dig too deeply, but I took a look today.
2017-04-07T04:49:56Z nyef: There's some sort of explicit "protocol" abstraction, probably to do with Silica. There are important seeming condition classes (like "unsupported ink") that aren't publicly exposed from any package, and the like.
2017-04-07T04:50:13Z beach: I see.
2017-04-07T04:50:27Z beach: If I am to believe Scott McKay, McCLIM has a much better implementation of presentation types than the commercial CLIM implementations.
2017-04-07T04:50:36Z nyef: I'm unsurprised.
2017-04-07T04:51:05Z beach: According to him, CLOS wasn't stable enough to do it the way he intended it to be done, but moore33 (again according to Scott) did it right.
2017-04-07T04:51:53Z nyef: Yeah, old-school lisp code seems to be a mix of research prototype and stuff rushed into production for "business" reasons.
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2017-04-07T04:52:39Z beach: Right.  Performance of processors and Common Lisp implementations at the time probably also influenced the way it was written.
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2017-04-07T04:52:58Z nyef: That too.
2017-04-07T04:53:32Z beach: Now we can afford to spend a few more cycles to get maintainable code, which is a must for a system that is free.
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2017-04-07T04:54:21Z nyef: I've sortof come to the conclusion that the thing to do is to pretty much start over, discarding pretty much any metalevel noise, just to make things sane.
2017-04-07T04:55:44Z beach: That would be a great thing to do, but also a huge project.  I tried a similar strategy with CLIM3/CLIMatis, but I had to give up, at least temporarily.  McCLIM is good enough to be used for the application-level projects that I think are important in order to make progress.
2017-04-07T04:56:44Z beach: Having said that, I totally agree that the second version of some system is typically much better than the first.  There are so many lessons to be learned from the first attempt.
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2017-04-07T04:57:06Z beach: Climacs is one example, Gsharp is another.
2017-04-07T04:57:45Z nyef: Mmm. I've also been wondering about starting at the application level, myself. Using McCLIM as an implementation in order to get some functionality going, and then looking to get NQ-CLIM or some other reimplementation into usable shape.
2017-04-07T04:58:15Z nyef: On the other paw, there's also trying to run franzinc's clim2, or Genera...
2017-04-07T04:58:36Z beach: As usual, too much to do and too little time.
2017-04-07T04:59:13Z nyef: Indeed.
2017-04-07T04:59:54Z nyef: And sometimes it's just plain easier to be developing something for the first time, rather than trying to reimplement something that already exists, as paradoxical as it may seem.
2017-04-07T05:00:10Z beach: It would be great to figure out some intermediate-size projects that can simultaneously be used independently in other projects, and also self contained so that they could become Quicklisp material.  I am specifically thinking of a graphics-drawing layer that could be part of lots of stuff.
2017-04-07T05:02:22Z beach: As I recall, there is a significant amount of code in McCLIM for mundane things like computing the bounding box of a line that does not have ordinary rectangular endpoints.
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2017-04-07T05:03:50Z beach: That stuff is independently useful, so could be separated out into an independent library, with independent documentation, independent test suites, and (hopefully) additional maintainers.
2017-04-07T05:03:58Z nyef: There may even be a few things in NQ-CLIM, probably also available in McCLIM, that could be exported as a separate library.
2017-04-07T05:04:28Z beach: Sounds plausible.
2017-04-07T05:05:01Z beach: Over the past few years, I have come to appreciate the value of this independence, in terms of clean protocols, documentation, and test suites.
2017-04-07T05:05:05Z nyef: ... Geometry stuff, almost certainly.
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2017-04-07T05:05:31Z nyef: Clean protocols, documentation, actually exporting the various error conditions...
2017-04-07T05:05:42Z shaftoe: thanks you death
2017-04-07T05:05:52Z shaftoe: i go looking for a dbus library and there it is
2017-04-07T05:06:33Z beach: nyef: Exactly.
2017-04-07T05:11:51Z beach: Here is another one: Input methods.  Converting things like "or" to "ỏ" in the Vietnamese telex input methods.
2017-04-07T05:12:29Z beach: It could be used in tons of applications that require the input of text in different languages.
2017-04-07T05:13:19Z beach: I mean, it is not as simple as just converting.  One should be able to query the state of the system to determine possible completions, etc.
2017-04-07T05:13:23Z nyef: Heh. That's right. The clim2 code includes explicit japanese input method support of some sort.
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2017-04-07T05:14:30Z beach: I see, yes.  As maintainers of free software, we pretty much have to cut down on the maintenance burden by improving modularity and reuse.
2017-04-07T05:14:32Z nyef: Doesn't help that some of the systems that we need to interface with have documentation and stability as bad as anything we deal with on the lisp side. /-:
2017-04-07T05:14:49Z beach: I agree, yes.
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2017-04-07T05:15:14Z nyef: Now, the flipside is that dependencies are pain, and should be eliminated as much as possible.
2017-04-07T05:15:33Z beach: It depends (so to speak).
2017-04-07T05:15:41Z pillton: Clients are also a pain too.
2017-04-07T05:15:48Z nyef: As much as feasible, maybe?
2017-04-07T05:16:12Z beach: pillton: Hard to eliminate though, provided you are referring to humans.
2017-04-07T05:16:23Z pillton: Client software I mean.
2017-04-07T05:16:35Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-04-07T05:16:37Z pillton: Software which uses your "component".
2017-04-07T05:17:40Z beach: I think if the independent module has clean, well documented protocols that do not change too much over time, then dependence is preferable to duplication.
2017-04-07T05:18:06Z beach: For small stuff like MAPPEND, it probably isn't worth it.
2017-04-07T05:18:09Z nyef: Much of the pain of client software is from when it starts going beyond the guaranteed functionality and interfaces of its dependencies.
2017-04-07T05:18:43Z nyef: Or when it turns out that the guaranteed functionality and interfaces need to change for whatever reason.
2017-04-07T05:18:44Z pillton: Design is hard.
2017-04-07T05:19:10Z beach: Hard, but well worth it if you can get it right.
2017-04-07T05:19:33Z pillton: Finding books on the subject is hard too.
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2017-04-07T05:20:25Z beach: I am guessing the reason for that is that design is mainly a creative activity, and it requires lots of experience.  Those things are hard to learn from books.
2017-04-07T05:20:41Z nyef: Also, *writing* decent books on the subject is hard.
2017-04-07T05:21:46Z beach: Indeed.
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2017-04-07T05:23:01Z nyef: Gods. Dynamically created sheet classes, with a cache so that they can be reused if someone needs more than one with the same set of options, though. *shudder*
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2017-04-07T05:23:28Z nyef: They really did go overboard on the whole "metawhatever protocol" stuff back then.
2017-04-07T05:24:01Z nyef: (And I say "back then", but it... Oh. A quarter-century ago, give or take. Eesh.)
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2017-04-07T05:31:24Z beach: nyef: Is that in the Silica specification, or is it "just" an implementation strategy?
2017-04-07T05:35:40Z nyef: I have yet to see anything in the way of a "Silica specification". The impression that I get is that Silica was a piece of software that was developed and then adopted as the base layer for CLIM.
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2017-04-07T05:35:52Z nyef: But I could easily be wrong here.
2017-04-07T05:35:56Z beach: OK.
2017-04-07T05:36:58Z nyef: So the closest that we have for a "silica specificaion" is the relevant bits of the CLIM spec, which happen to be the *weakest* bits of the CLIM spec.
2017-04-07T05:37:19Z beach: :(
2017-04-07T05:37:26Z nyef: Which would probably be because they were written after the software was written, instead of before.
2017-04-07T05:38:13Z beach: I see traces of that "inversion" in many places of the CLIM II specification.
2017-04-07T05:38:32Z nyef: In fact, the paper that I've just been reading is the first time I've encountered a discussion of Silica outside of the context of CLIM.
2017-04-07T05:39:04Z nyef: And even then, it's not entirely outside the context of CLIM.
2017-04-07T05:41:12Z nyef: ... A quick re-scan suggests that there are only two mentions of CLIM, once in the abstract and the other in the references.
2017-04-07T05:41:42Z nyef: Ah, and a third time in the introduction.
2017-04-07T05:42:04Z beach: But, if I understand it correctly, that paper is about only one aspect of Silica; not a full specification.
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2017-04-07T05:42:11Z nyef: Right.
2017-04-07T05:43:27Z nyef: And it's about an aspect of Silica that basically doesn't get a mention in the CLIM II spec, but in retrospect clearly underlies a good chunk of it.
2017-04-07T05:44:03Z beach: I shall have to read it later when my computing environment is again acceptable.
2017-04-07T05:47:27Z nyef: So, early next week, maybe?
2017-04-07T05:47:55Z beach: More like middle of next week.
2017-04-07T05:48:24Z nyef: Fair enough.
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2017-04-07T05:51:24Z beach: Time for me to prepare today's train trip.
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2017-04-07T06:12:58Z p_l: nyef: Symbolics user guide for CLIM mentions that a big improvement from DW in CLIM is static classes instead of dynamic - given the origins of the code in Franz's repo, we could be seeing bits that originated from DW and CLIM1
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2017-04-07T07:28:57Z flip214: When I do this: (defun add-seven (x) (+ x 7))
2017-04-07T07:29:29Z flip214: the type of the function is correctly[1] determined as    Derived type: (FUNCTION (T) (VALUES NUMBER &OPTIONAL))
2017-04-07T07:29:45Z flip214: Ad 1: the argument could have been derived as number, too.
2017-04-07T07:29:56Z flip214: but when I compile   (defun foo (y) (string-upcase (add-seven y)))
2017-04-07T07:30:21Z flip214: I get no warning about incompatible types...  sbcl 1.3.14, amd64
2017-04-07T07:30:43Z flip214: shouldn't that tell me about the mismatch?
2017-04-07T07:34:43Z scymtym: flip214: SBCL doesn't use derived types that way by default. use (setf *derive-function-types* t) to change it
2017-04-07T07:36:27Z flip214: scymtym: great, thanks!
2017-04-07T07:36:53Z flip214: can't find that in the sbcl manual... any downsides?
2017-04-07T07:38:00Z p_l: flip214: I bet the list starts with "it makes the compilation even slower"
2017-04-07T07:38:26Z flip214: p_l: yeah, perhaps.... but much better than manually declaring.
2017-04-07T07:38:40Z p_l: flip214: heh
2017-04-07T07:38:41Z flip214: one downside is that all dependent code might need to be recompiled
2017-04-07T07:39:02Z p_l: still, some companies already switched away from SBCL in some projects due to compilation speed (and ok, also heap size)
2017-04-07T07:39:26Z flip214: is there some script that looks at an ASDF definition and the (with debug information) compiled functions,
2017-04-07T07:39:40Z flip214: and derives the required ASDF dependencies from that?
2017-04-07T07:40:39Z scymtym: flip214: i think there was a talk about something like that at ELS 2016
2017-04-07T07:41:32Z p_l: pfft. There was just a talk about whether E-Mail addresses can have whitespace in them... the quick consensus was "no"
2017-04-07T07:41:45Z p_l: of course when I go to check the standard I find that yes, it's legal
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2017-04-07T07:43:25Z jasom: someone made a perl regex that can match valid e-mails according to the rfc; it was hundreds of characters IIRC
2017-04-07T07:44:21Z flip214: well, email addresses are turing complete already    ;)
2017-04-07T07:45:29Z p_l: jasom: yeah, I started with that tbh :D
2017-04-07T07:50:33Z scymtym: flip214: https://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/static/2016/anderson.pdf
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2017-04-07T07:53:26Z flip214: scymtym: thanks, reading
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2017-04-07T08:17:08Z mood_btf: I must say, reading that old CLIM systems use dynamically created classes to handle options is somewhat comforting. I have a little experiment that does that to combine behaviors and now I know I'm not entirely insane (hopefully)
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2017-04-07T08:30:27Z shrdlu68: What's the "standard" way to specify build options in ASDF. Say I want to select which I/O library to use (cl-async, iolib, cl-event, cl-libevent2, etc.). How do I configure one during build time?
2017-04-07T08:30:55Z flip214: shrdlu68: your ASDF would do (:depends-on :iolib)
2017-04-07T08:31:03Z flip214: and then you use the iolib functions in your sources
2017-04-07T08:31:08Z shrdlu68: *features*, likely. But how does the user get to choose?
2017-04-07T08:31:35Z shrdlu68: flip214: I want to let the user select which library to use.
2017-04-07T08:31:49Z shrdlu68: To build, actually.
2017-04-07T08:33:13Z shrdlu68: Sort of like the steps followed during `configure` and `make`.
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2017-04-07T08:33:49Z shrdlu68: Maybe this is overkill...
2017-04-07T08:34:01Z shrdlu68: Just select one and stick with it.
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2017-04-07T08:36:25Z mood_btf: shrdlu68: You could do it by making the user set a feature and conditionalizing the relevant files on that feature
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2017-04-07T08:38:48Z shrdlu68: mood_btf: That would work
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2017-04-07T09:02:12Z afidegnum: hi, good morning all, how are you doing all today?
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2017-04-07T09:36:00Z shrdlu68: afidegnum: Good morning.
2017-04-07T09:36:56Z afidegnum: shrdlu68: how are you doing
2017-04-07T09:37:24Z afidegnum: i was having a discussion on #lispgames relating having a centralized documentation and libraries
2017-04-07T09:37:37Z afidegnum: since no one was here, i posted there,
2017-04-07T09:37:49Z afidegnum: can you also help with an imput?
2017-04-07T09:38:26Z shrdlu68: afidegnum: I don't have much experience with gaming.
2017-04-07T09:38:45Z shrdlu68: For centralization, there's cliki.net and common-lisp.net
2017-04-07T09:38:46Z afidegnum: no, lisp documentation in general
2017-04-07T09:39:08Z shrdlu68: quickdocs?
2017-04-07T09:39:24Z shka: afidegnum: i support ultra spec idea
2017-04-07T09:39:37Z shka: later it can be extended to libs as well
2017-04-07T09:39:40Z afidegnum: yes
2017-04-07T09:39:51Z shrdlu68: http://quickdocs.org/
2017-04-07T09:39:59Z edgar-rft: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/
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2017-04-07T10:21:18Z afidegnum: i have created a doc repo which can be used to gather all docs elements,
2017-04-07T10:21:27Z afidegnum: https://github.com/afidegnum/cl_docs-consolidate/blob/afidegnum-patch-2/web.md
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2017-04-07T10:34:27Z afidegnum: Weblocks, is it a microframework or all batteries included, what are the compatible usable JS/AJAX tools?
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2017-04-07T10:59:25Z shrdlu68: If one slot is defined after another, can the latter's initform refer to the former's value?
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2017-04-07T11:19:33Z mood_btf: shrdlu68: No, initforms can't refer to the instance, so they also can't refer to its slots
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2017-04-07T12:06:30Z lieven: clos doesn't have boa constructors :)
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2017-04-07T12:07:48Z shrdlu68: Hehe
2017-04-07T12:08:14Z shaftoe: anyone have experience with cl-termbox?
2017-04-07T12:08:26Z shaftoe: or similar terminal-ui libs
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2017-04-07T12:13:33Z sjl: not sure what termbox is, but I've used cl-charms (cl wrapper around ncurses) to make a couple of games
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2017-04-07T12:17:55Z ogamita: you can always write your own boa constructors.
2017-04-07T12:18:12Z ogamita: (defun make-foo (a b c) (make-instance 'foo :a a :b b :c c))
2017-04-07T12:23:11Z shaftoe: sjl: thanks, will check it out
2017-04-07T12:23:41Z shaftoe: sjl: inspired by this article on Go terminal ui libs https://appliedgo.net/tui/
2017-04-07T12:24:50Z sjl: yeah there probably aren't as many options in lisp land, but there's at least a few
2017-04-07T12:25:22Z sjl: there's also the option of wrapping something like libtcod or bearlibterminal with cffi if you're trying to make games
2017-04-07T12:25:40Z sjl: (depending on whether you're looking for "ascii graphics" or "will actually run in a terminal")
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2017-04-07T12:32:15Z Aruro: did lisp machines have gc?
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2017-04-07T12:32:45Z mood_btf: Aruro: Yes
2017-04-07T12:33:09Z Aruro: was it hardware?
2017-04-07T12:33:46Z varjag: it was hardware assisted
2017-04-07T12:33:58Z varjag: as all memory was tagged
2017-04-07T12:34:22Z varjag: but other than that lisp machines were fairly generic computer platforms
2017-04-07T12:34:42Z Aruro: are there any recent attempts to resurrect lisp machines?
2017-04-07T12:35:09Z varjag: if you mean special purpose commerical hardware platform, no
2017-04-07T12:35:15Z varjag: as it makes no sense
2017-04-07T12:35:38Z Aruro: why not?
2017-04-07T12:35:57Z varjag: why would it be?
2017-04-07T12:36:01Z varjag: modern hw is fast
2017-04-07T12:36:10Z Aruro: they can account for some mistakes of modern systems
2017-04-07T12:36:15Z Aruro: like gc for example
2017-04-07T12:36:16Z varjag: good luck matching general purpose mainstream cpu
2017-04-07T12:36:29Z varjag: you can do gc on any modern platform
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2017-04-07T12:36:41Z varjag: lisp machine is a bad example here
2017-04-07T12:36:41Z Aruro: i mean gc-less platforms
2017-04-07T12:36:58Z varjag: for a few years its gc was so buggy people avoided running it
2017-04-07T12:37:29Z varjag: all platforms are "gc-less" platforms
2017-04-07T12:37:32Z varjag: including lisp machine
2017-04-07T12:37:43Z Aruro: they are not :)
2017-04-07T12:37:44Z varjag: there was no hardware "garbage collect magic" instruction
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2017-04-07T12:38:01Z varjag: lispm gc was a program
2017-04-07T12:38:04Z Aruro: u need to gc to write anything what computes
2017-04-07T12:38:05Z varjag: like everywhere else
2017-04-07T12:38:32Z Aruro: so if gc will be solved on hardware level your code will be different
2017-04-07T12:38:59Z varjag: i feel you have really vague understanding of what a gc is
2017-04-07T12:39:19Z Aruro: what can be vague about clearing unused memory?
2017-04-07T12:39:26Z Aruro: am i missing something?
2017-04-07T12:40:00Z varjag: yes you miss a lot
2017-04-07T12:40:09Z varjag: like what the lispm hw was
2017-04-07T12:40:24Z varjag: it was a general purpose computer with tagged memory
2017-04-07T12:40:54Z varjag: anyway there's plenty of symbolics architecture documentation available on the net
2017-04-07T12:40:56Z varjag: i'd start there
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2017-04-07T12:43:18Z Aruro: so tagged memory is good start, poved to be useless u say?
2017-04-07T12:43:22Z Aruro: proved*
2017-04-07T12:43:43Z varjag: ..?
2017-04-07T12:43:48Z varjag: where did i say that
2017-04-07T12:44:18Z varjag: tagged memory can be used both to check value types on runtime and to assist gc
2017-04-07T12:44:24Z varjag: but the code still needs to be written
2017-04-07T12:44:28Z Aruro: well, i infered it from lisp machines being comercially nonsensial
2017-04-07T12:44:29Z varjag: doing all that
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2017-04-07T12:44:36Z varjag: good god
2017-04-07T12:44:51Z Aruro: why nobody works on it now?
2017-04-07T12:45:18Z Aruro: instead of writing ugly gc's isnt it better to rethink architecture?
2017-04-07T12:45:21Z varjag: because it's expensive and the result will be slower than lisp running on x86 emulating your brand new lispm in vm
2017-04-07T12:45:35Z Aruro: so in 80's it was cheap?
2017-04-07T12:45:43Z Aruro: and now its expansive :)
2017-04-07T12:45:59Z varjag: in the 90s
2017-04-07T12:46:05Z varjag: that's how symbolics went bust
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2017-04-07T12:46:21Z varjag: are you here for a sake of argument?
2017-04-07T12:46:31Z Aruro: btw speed is not most important now, if code will be better and more clear
2017-04-07T12:47:14Z Aruro: just trying to understand why everybody got stuck on one architecture
2017-04-07T12:47:15Z Xof: I feel like it's 2002 again here
2017-04-07T12:47:17Z Aruro: thats all
2017-04-07T12:47:29Z Xof: Aruro: then study economics
2017-04-07T12:47:55Z lieven: Aruro: people have worked on it further. there were java implementations in hardware
2017-04-07T12:48:28Z Aruro: Xof: just so u know there are plenty of money in research
2017-04-07T12:48:29Z lieven: they fell prey to the same phenomenon that killed lispms. general purpose hardware just gets more investment and outperforms it in a generation
2017-04-07T12:48:37Z varjag: haha
2017-04-07T12:48:50Z Xof: ...
2017-04-07T12:49:01Z Aruro: Xof: u economist or academic?
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2017-04-07T12:49:38Z Xof: before I act like I would have done in 2002, I should just check: are you one of my students?
2017-04-07T12:49:54Z Aruro: lieven: if u take only hardware yes, but if u take software developments cicles like compiler dev im not sure what is better
2017-04-07T12:50:10Z Aruro: Xof: not.
2017-04-07T12:50:11Z Xof: anyway, how is everyone?
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2017-04-07T12:50:50Z varjag: recovering from a week of really bad travel
2017-04-07T12:50:56Z Aruro: lieven: for example for big companies like google both hardware and software cicles are important
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2017-04-07T12:51:06Z varjag: els was the only positive highlight!
2017-04-07T12:51:50Z Aruro: and looking at raspberri pi, old stories how everything is defined by money seem wrong
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2017-04-07T12:52:04Z varjag: raspberry pi is generic arm hardware
2017-04-07T12:52:14Z varjag: off the shelf as off the shelf it gets
2017-04-07T12:52:16Z p_l: Aruro: and how would hardware "solve" GC? Especially given quite big differences between algorithms depending on use case
2017-04-07T12:52:17Z Aruro: but its new, thats what u missed
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2017-04-07T12:52:22Z p_l: Aruro: no it's not
2017-04-07T12:52:25Z varjag: it's not
2017-04-07T12:52:43Z p_l: Aruro: RPi is made of what are essentially binned scraps
2017-04-07T12:53:11Z p_l: the whole main chip isn't even an ARM chip - the ARM is a coprocessor to the actual CPU
2017-04-07T12:53:43Z Xof: I strongly suspect that this discussion isn't going to end well
2017-04-07T12:53:44Z p_l: but it was already mass-produced, thus easy to make a cheap board
2017-04-07T12:54:07Z Aruro: Xof: its going. but u do not contribute wisdom.
2017-04-07T12:54:09Z p_l: Aruro: if you want, it takes ~week to make a phone from scratch in china, so long as you stick to widely available components and parts
2017-04-07T12:54:32Z p_l: Also, another thing - LispMs, especially Ivory ones, didn't do GC in HW
2017-04-07T12:54:34Z Aruro: p_l: but they do new layout too no?
2017-04-07T12:54:51Z varjag: p_l: think i stressed that point a few times now too
2017-04-07T12:54:59Z varjag: he doesn't seem to listen
2017-04-07T12:55:10Z Aruro: varjag: u got stuck on gc, i said it as example
2017-04-07T12:55:20Z Aruro: new architecture changes the way u program
2017-04-07T12:55:21Z z0d: Aruro: no one creates a new architecture, because it's expensive. we have x86 and it is already supported with software and developers
2017-04-07T12:55:31Z z0d: Aruro: and it's fast, so you can use it to implement your stuff
2017-04-07T12:55:32Z p_l: Aruro: layout? you mean PCB design? The stuff that for low-end hw is done by bored hacker and printed out on laser printer, and for a complete phone is done in a day or two by consultant
2017-04-07T12:55:35Z z0d: even a Lisp machine
2017-04-07T12:55:48Z p_l: new architectures are hard to get made because of process costs
2017-04-07T12:56:04Z p_l: and design costs
2017-04-07T12:56:24Z Aruro: p_l: i bet u can mix and match on already made designs
2017-04-07T12:56:41Z varjag: mix and match wouldn't bring you tagged memory support
2017-04-07T12:56:52Z varjag: let alone the magic gc you dreamt up
2017-04-07T12:57:00Z Aruro: varjag: i am not sure, electronics have gone long way since 90s
2017-04-07T12:57:06Z varjag: i am sure
2017-04-07T12:57:20Z Aruro: varjag: i know that u are sure :) seems in everything
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2017-04-07T12:57:52Z p_l: symbolics 36xx btw was made from off-the-shelf components using microcode
2017-04-07T12:57:52Z varjag: you can think we're all part of anti-lispmachine conspiracy here on #lisp
2017-04-07T12:57:58Z varjag: or that you fundamentally have no clue
2017-04-07T12:58:07Z varjag: whichever seems more likely to you
2017-04-07T12:58:16Z varjag: meanwhile i put you on ignore
2017-04-07T13:00:46Z p_l: anyway, we're slowly killing off IBM PC so we're getting to better place, just software sucks even more than it used to :/
2017-04-07T13:01:29Z Aruro: :)
2017-04-07T13:03:08Z Aruro: so in some sense university labs nowadays are more weak than back then? in terms of ability to create new processors and such things
2017-04-07T13:03:16Z p_l: Aruro: nope
2017-04-07T13:03:19Z Aruro: i read lm was started in MIT
2017-04-07T13:03:52Z p_l: university labs have access to state-of-the-art manufacturing capabilities that MIT didn't have when it was doing CONS & CADR machines
2017-04-07T13:04:42Z p_l: (you just need to know where to ask... looked at it for implementing Knuth's et al MMIX cpu in hardware)
2017-04-07T13:06:05Z p_l: anyway, there's not really much that CONS/CADR/36xx/ivory instruction sets would bring for lisping, hell ivory is quite plain system (K-machine was much more interesting, and guess what, it also looked quite like modern RISC)
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2017-04-07T13:07:04Z p_l: Ivory rev 1-4 used to sniff MMU for GC usage, today Azul's Zing simply programs the page tables to have read and write traps at high-speed that would make Symbolics engineers salivate
2017-04-07T13:08:17Z p_l: (Ivory rev5 didn't have physical MMU and thus used iirc two extra instructions to support necessary operations, and ran on plain RISC - hell, the original paper stressed how it was "microcode to use on modern chip")
2017-04-07T13:08:41Z Aruro: p_l: interesting
2017-04-07T13:09:48Z p_l: Aruro: CPU designs don't go for complex behaviours if they can because those behaviours are, well, complex - and thus considerably harder to implement in hw than in sw.
2017-04-07T13:10:33Z Aruro: but complex design was focused mainly on instructions set or also investigated organization of memory?
2017-04-07T13:10:42Z p_l: And for a comparison, take the fact that some of the fastest non-VLM Lisp Machines used either very, very simple CPUs (CM-1 & CM-2) or plain SPARC (CM-5)
2017-04-07T13:10:45Z p_l: Aruro: everything
2017-04-07T13:11:03Z p_l: Aruro: it is all interconnected
2017-04-07T13:11:26Z Aruro: p_l: are there any profound books on this topic? with good ideas? :)
2017-04-07T13:11:46Z p_l: Aruro: start with plain old books on computer architecture
2017-04-07T13:12:25Z p_l: and then you might want to look at history and how pretty much all complex architectures ended up converging into some sort of microcoded design on top of much plainer hw
2017-04-07T13:12:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-04-07T13:13:02Z p_l: (I think the only real survivor is Burroughs Large Systems mainframes, because AS/400 planned for it from the start, correctly guessing the future)
2017-04-07T13:13:42Z p_l: BLS iirc also show how the complex memory layouts can age in weird ways
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2017-04-07T13:14:32Z p_l: (while AS/400 has been doing since inception things that people from time to time will wank to on internet forums about how disks are irrelevant and flash brings unified memory etc. etc. - AS/400 does that since first machine rolled out)
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2017-04-07T13:17:30Z Aruro: ty, Burroughs is interesting company,from 1880s
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2017-04-07T13:19:04Z p_l: LispMs were quite conservative in organization, BLS (stack, very complex memory model) and AS/400 (128bit address space covering *all data* including all I/O) are probably quite ahead in "memory layout" ;)
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2017-04-07T13:27:43Z mrottenkolber: Hah! after many years of CL hacking I found my first use for method combinations, namely :before. Splendid! I am from now on a converted CLOS acolyte.
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2017-04-07T13:28:30Z p_l: Aruro: there was recently a nice board that could be easily modified into something that would appear like a lisp machine (one would need to write apropriate drivers for some hw of course) but the same people who will complain about "closed NSA blobs" in x86 hardware and salivate over underpowered semi-free ARM crap couldn't get together enough to bring 3.7m
2017-04-07T13:28:30Z p_l: dollars for a production run of entirely blob-free workstation system with full docs for everything and comparable performance to current server hw
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2017-04-07T13:28:41Z p_l: ha!
2017-04-07T13:28:43Z p_l: ;)
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2017-04-07T13:29:35Z mrottenkolber: p_l: you mean Talos? yeah that was a shame
2017-04-07T13:29:54Z warweasle: p_l: I noticed you got my joke yesterday, that Paul Graham used emacs as a gui. And people actually liked it.
2017-04-07T13:30:05Z mrottenkolber: sadly I couldn’t really justify 3-7k for a workstation I’d probably never use
2017-04-07T13:30:29Z p_l: mrottenkolber: I didn't have money on hand (and it would go over my CC limit :/)
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2017-04-07T13:31:09Z p_l: warweasle: Steve Yegge actually made internal CRM for Amazon using Emacs as a GUI
2017-04-07T13:31:20Z p_l: warweasle: supposedly most of the team was lispers
2017-04-07T13:31:48Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2017-04-07T13:31:56Z beach: Oh, warweasle is back on.
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2017-04-07T13:32:15Z beach: warweasle: Do you still need to insert items into a vector?
2017-04-07T13:32:16Z mrottenkolber: Can we have a IRC name to portait picture mapping so I can map from ELS to internet?
2017-04-07T13:32:39Z mood_btf: Hehe, that's a good idea
2017-04-07T13:32:59Z mrottenkolber: Can you insert images into a google spreadsheet?
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2017-04-07T13:33:28Z warweasle: beach: I made my own trivial implementation.
2017-04-07T13:33:31Z p_l: probably quite short hack
2017-04-07T13:33:57Z warweasle: mrottenkolber: ?
2017-04-07T13:34:12Z beach: warweasle: I created Flexichain for exactly that use case.
2017-04-07T13:34:25Z beach: warweasle: It is well tested, well documented, fast, flexible.
2017-04-07T13:35:08Z warweasle: mrottenkolber: https://github.com/BradWBeer/clinch/blob/master/examples/assets/img/weasle.png
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2017-04-07T13:36:49Z warweasle: beach: Can I treat char chains as string with cffi?
2017-04-07T13:37:10Z phoe_: warweasle: most likely you can convert them into strings.
2017-04-07T13:37:52Z beach: warweasle: Sorry, no FFI.  Forget I said anything.
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2017-04-07T13:38:54Z mrottenkolber: help yourselves: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-4B8nzX-cp4_r2Hhe-wNkZWaZM5xDAEtaHbhOxwY3p4/edit?usp=sharing
2017-04-07T13:39:21Z mrottenkolber: can’t really force images into cells, but it would kinda work
2017-04-07T13:40:25Z z0d: are you building a FB in an Excel sheet? ;-)
2017-04-07T13:40:32Z warweasle: beach: Also, I want to add a (dirty? ) method to sequences.
2017-04-07T13:40:46Z mrottenkolber: z0d: it has been done in PHP so...
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2017-04-07T13:41:43Z z0d: mrottenkolber: don't say the P-word!
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2017-04-07T13:42:49Z mrottenkolber: quick poll: would you enjoy a blog post that goes over a complete CL program (300 lines, fairly interesting) in detail?
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2017-04-07T13:43:22Z mrottenkolber: also many diagrams and foundational math
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2017-04-07T13:43:57Z mrottenkolber: yet playful and crazy, and probably mostly wrong (obviously)
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2017-04-07T13:46:11Z mrottenkolber: I mean, I ain’t gonna quit now that I am half way through, just gauging general interest in this sort of prose. For the future, this format might be too much work to justify. (On the upside, it forces you to polish your code really well, and you end up with a literal program of sorts.)
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2017-04-07T13:47:24Z mood_btf: mrottenkolber: I think my interest would depend heavily on what kind of program it is, though reading through the process might be interesting regardless
2017-04-07T13:47:28Z mazoe: mrottenkolber: sure. In principle. I think one of the barriers for people starting out with Lisp is how structure a 'complete' program
2017-04-07T13:47:47Z warweasle: mrottenkolber: dto has been working with literate programming and his project. Combining that with a project's history might be a valuable tool.
2017-04-07T13:48:25Z ogamita: You can draw pictures in excel indeed. http://mashable.com/2014/10/26/microsoft-excel-art/
2017-04-07T13:48:48Z ogamita: mazoe: I don't agree.
2017-04-07T13:48:53Z mazoe: warweasle: ooh, do you have a link to that?
2017-04-07T13:49:06Z ogamita: mazoe: there's absolutely nothing specific to any programming language in structuring complete programs.
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2017-04-07T13:49:15Z mazoe: ogamita: oh? Most people I've talked to imagine lisp as an unpractical 'academic' language
2017-04-07T13:49:21Z ogamita: They're two different skills, even often done by different people.
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2017-04-07T13:49:42Z mazoe: ogamita: sure, absolutely, but most people wnat to know some of both, to get anything useful built
2017-04-07T13:49:48Z ogamita: Of course.
2017-04-07T13:49:48Z _death: mrottenkolber: yes please
2017-04-07T13:50:02Z iago: mazoe: as a lisp noob, 2 months on it, the bigger barrier I found is documentation. Hyperspec is kind of cryptic for a noob.
2017-04-07T13:50:11Z warweasle: mazoe: http://xelf.me/xelf.html#orgfe5c25a
2017-04-07T13:50:22Z mazoe: iago: yep, agreed
2017-04-07T13:50:25Z mazoe: warweasle: thanks!
2017-04-07T13:50:27Z ogamita: mazoe: and I agree that some people are blocked, when learning a new programming language, they seem to forget all they know about software engineering in general.
2017-04-07T13:50:41Z mazoe: ogamita: hah true
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2017-04-07T13:51:14Z mazoe: ogamita: in which case it's a documentation problem - reminding how to do 'software engineering' in lisp
2017-04-07T13:51:57Z warweasle: ogamita: I forget everything I know about engineering every day. I have to look at my notes to remember what I was doing.
2017-04-07T13:52:03Z ogamita: :-)
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2017-04-07T13:52:14Z mazoe: most people I talk to imagine lisp as a toy/academic/methematical language, which would be unsuitable to 'real' development
2017-04-07T13:52:33Z mazoe: heh
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2017-04-07T13:54:16Z mazoe: dto: that xelf documentation is neat!
2017-04-07T13:54:25Z afidegnum: hi
2017-04-07T13:54:47Z afidegnum: my references is gradually growing, can you please add your input as well?
2017-04-07T13:55:54Z dlowe: mazoe: that's the program. It's written in literate style.
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2017-04-07T13:56:26Z mazoe: dlowe: yes, I see :D
2017-04-07T13:56:40Z mazoe: I meant, I like it
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2017-04-07T14:08:16Z mrottenkolber: iago: takes some practice, its a formal document
2017-04-07T14:09:41Z mrottenkolber: ogamita: the structure of a program can depend heavily on the language, and even the framework/paradigms used.
2017-04-07T14:09:57Z mrottenkolber: Case in point: C will have a main()
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2017-04-07T14:11:15Z mrottenkolber: when using a message passing framework, "top level" functions will be event loops, etc
2017-04-07T14:12:06Z mrottenkolber: Oh and take a look at epoll/kqueue if you want to see how APIs can absolutely wreck program structure
2017-04-07T14:12:20Z mrottenkolber: aka any modern high-perf webserver
2017-04-07T14:13:12Z ogamita: mrottenkolber: this is not the structure of the program: the entry points depend on the OS, and all programs, whatever the language, will have the same entry points on the same OS.
2017-04-07T14:13:38Z ogamita: mrottenkolber: you're right that the frameworks used (if any) determine some parts of the structure of the program.
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2017-04-07T14:14:02Z mrottenkolber: the OS is nothing but a framework + maybe a language
2017-04-07T14:14:23Z ogamita: mrottenkolber: but even with frameworks, you can always impose your own structure and interface: the frameworks only impose structure on the modules using their services, not on the core of an application.
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2017-04-07T14:15:14Z ogamita: mrottenkolber: case in point also: here, all the C programs we write don't have any main, they have 5 entry points imposed by the TEE OS.
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2017-04-07T14:15:42Z mrottenkolber: Would equivalent forth have the same structure? :-)
2017-04-07T14:16:03Z ogamita: of course.
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2017-04-07T14:18:14Z mazoe: ignoring the 'software engineering' aspect of it, there are also language-specific idioms that affect the way you write 'complete programs' (newcomer to lisp: what is a 'system'?!)
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2017-04-07T14:20:16Z mrottenkolber: Thanks for the feedback guys, I will drop the article into reddit/irc/... when its done (topic is an implementation of a Kademlia DHT variant using Erlangen btw)
2017-04-07T14:20:27Z ogamita: mazoe: complete programs and program structures are higher layers notions that really are independent on the language.  Even if you coded in a Turing Machine or in Brainfuck, you would structure your program the same way. (You wouldn't be helped by the language, but  this is another question).
2017-04-07T14:21:06Z mazoe: ogamita: I feel like we're arguing different things :)
2017-04-07T14:21:14Z ogamita: mazoe: the thing here is that with lisp, you can define macros to describe the high level and higher layers of the program structure, and those macros may generate makefiles, configuration files, and whatever is needed to deploy the components.
2017-04-07T14:21:27Z ogamita: See for example asdf.
2017-04-07T14:21:28Z mazoe: ogamita: yes, absolutely
2017-04-07T14:22:03Z mazoe: ogamita: yeah, and my point is that people need to learn *about* things like asdf that exist to make this stuff easy
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2017-04-07T14:25:53Z Reinisch: Hi there, I'm a lisp-newbie and feel like I can add slightly to this discussion.
2017-04-07T14:26:04Z mazoe: Reinisch: please do!
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2017-04-07T14:26:18Z Reinisch: I've been trying to learn and write lisp on-and-off for over a year now.
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2017-04-07T14:27:02Z Reinisch: I started with reading Practical Common Lisp, then thumbed through successful lisp, then that other one that's always suggested.
2017-04-07T14:27:17Z Reinisch: Meanwhile reading everything I could google myself
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2017-04-07T14:27:37Z Reinisch: I really liked things.
2017-04-07T14:28:02Z Reinisch: I even started solving Euler Problems in Lisp
2017-04-07T14:28:10Z Reinisch: it was rewarding and fun.
2017-04-07T14:28:56Z Reinisch: when I started trying to write my own (slightly larger) projects in lisp, I quickly realized I wasn't able to figure out how things worked
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2017-04-07T14:29:16Z rpav: too much reading, not enough writing ;)
2017-04-07T14:29:26Z Reinisch: no matter how hard I tried, or where I looked for documentation, the complexities of
2017-04-07T14:29:35Z rpav: though probably not enough reading of code too
2017-04-07T14:29:39Z _death: we were all newbies once
2017-04-07T14:29:41Z Reinisch: quicklisp, asdf, packages
2017-04-07T14:30:00Z Reinisch: all working together was confusing as could be.
2017-04-07T14:30:15Z djh_: My experience has been fairly similar
2017-04-07T14:30:19Z rpav: Reinisch: it's immensely helpful to pick a reasonably small project and look how it does everything, especially the parts you may be confused about
2017-04-07T14:30:27Z Reinisch: I tried really hard to copy Peter Seibel's approach with his practicals code
2017-04-07T14:30:42Z djh_: Worked through SICP, and PCL, and Land of Lisp. Currently reading PAIP. Still find it painful to write even simple useful Lisp programs
2017-04-07T14:31:12Z Reinisch: but the precise way to put everything together still seemed mysterious
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2017-04-07T14:31:17Z rpav: you're reading too much of the wrong stuff and not writing anything
2017-04-07T14:31:53Z Zhivago: Pain is how you can tell that you are learning.
2017-04-07T14:31:55Z mazoe: Reinisch: yeah, that's just what I hear from other people
2017-04-07T14:31:57Z Reinisch: I wrote a functioning game (version of Lights Out)
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2017-04-07T14:32:28Z Reinisch: I swear I have been writing code
2017-04-07T14:32:55Z Zhivago: Which language are you most comfortable in?
2017-04-07T14:32:59Z Reinisch: what I'm trying to get across is that anything involving more than one file would fall apart for reasons I couldn't ever figure out.
2017-04-07T14:33:08Z _death: do you know about quickproject
2017-04-07T14:33:10Z djh_: I've written loads. But they're all "toy" programs and I hit a wall if tryign to do anythign else
2017-04-07T14:33:22Z shrdlu68: I've never worked throught SICP. Seems really fun and informative, but I've never thought that I really needed it to figure things out.
2017-04-07T14:33:30Z Reinisch: a few weeks ago I found this old article by Zach: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
2017-04-07T14:33:42Z djh_: shrdlu68: I enjoyed it, tho I skipped some of the mathy ones at the start
2017-04-07T14:33:53Z Reinisch: it walked me through how to actually set up a small project.
2017-04-07T14:33:54Z _death: djh: do you write nontoy programs in other languages?
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2017-04-07T14:34:03Z djh_: _death: sure, it's my job :)
2017-04-07T14:34:11Z Reinisch: I hadn't found that anywhere else!
2017-04-07T14:34:25Z Reinisch: and it's a seven year old article
2017-04-07T14:34:32Z shrdlu68: djh_: What's different with CL?
2017-04-07T14:34:38Z _death: djh: then you just need more Lisp practice
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2017-04-07T14:35:00Z djh_: shrdlu68: different from what?
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2017-04-07T14:36:02Z shrdlu68: djh_: From the other languages.
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2017-04-07T14:36:48Z Zhivago: Macros, mostly, these days.
2017-04-07T14:36:53Z Reinisch: I'm a user that did JavaScript and C++ in high school; python, matlab, and C++ in college; and I couldn't figure out how to get a lisp project with multiple files working for like a year.
2017-04-07T14:37:09Z Zhivago: What was confusing about multiple files?
2017-04-07T14:37:11Z Reinisch: I don't think I'm stupid and I don't think I haven't tried writing code.
2017-04-07T14:37:15Z djh_: shrdlu68: I dunno.. beginner resources/docs maybe. Things that I take for granted in other languages that I can't even find a good answer to in CL. Just trying to get command-line args was a struggle
2017-04-07T14:37:36Z _death: Reinisch: there are many existing CL projects with multiple files.. did you try to fully understand one?
2017-04-07T14:37:42Z Reinisch: I'm trying to explain there is a gap in resources explaining how to actually begin a project.
2017-04-07T14:37:46Z djh_ nods
2017-04-07T14:37:52Z mazoe: Reinisch: yep
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2017-04-07T14:38:22Z djh_: I've been reading & writing Lisp for over a year. I still can't do anything useful with it. I stick with it out of interest, but most newcomers would just give up long since
2017-04-07T14:38:40Z shrdlu68: Multiple files: As a beginner I just used `load`.
2017-04-07T14:38:54Z djh_: If I had been trying to do anything practical, I'd have given up on it as a bad job
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2017-04-07T14:39:11Z _death: seems like a newbies reinforcing one another isn't very useful
2017-04-07T14:39:17Z Zhivago: djh: So the problem is that you can't do anything practical in it, because you haven't tried to do anything practical in it?
2017-04-07T14:39:22Z dlowe: Well, you start writing your main function, right?
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2017-04-07T14:39:33Z dlowe: and then you need other stuff, so you write functions to support your main function
2017-04-07T14:39:35Z djh_: Zhivago: No, the problem is I can't do anything useful with it despite having tried repeatedly
2017-04-07T14:39:40Z shrdlu68 just doesn't get it.
2017-04-07T14:39:45Z Reinisch: _death: yes. after reading through asdf documentation, reading through the source code provided with PCL, I thought I had a general idea of how it worked.
2017-04-07T14:39:48Z mazoe: _death: true, but if multiple newbies say the same thing, there is clearly an issue
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2017-04-07T14:40:31Z Reinisch: _death: when I tried experimenting or branching out at all, I quickly hit brick walls that I couldn't pass.
2017-04-07T14:40:32Z _death: mazoe: so you can advance the state of things by writing your own tutorial
2017-04-07T14:40:45Z mazoe: _death: indeed. WIP
2017-04-07T14:40:50Z djh_: There's a world of difference (in any language) between "I understand the basic language and can write stuff with it" and "I can now write useful programs"
2017-04-07T14:41:08Z Zhivago: djh: What is an example of a useful program that you need?
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2017-04-07T14:41:51Z Reinisch: Also, on the off chance that Xach sees this, thank you so much. Sincerely.
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2017-04-07T14:42:37Z djh_: ..the one I'm working on atm is a web service that gets data about our infrastructure from a couple of APIs, munges it into a useful form and supplies it for consumption by a command-line app as JSON
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2017-04-07T14:43:31Z Zhivago: djh: Ok, have you tried using your APIs from lisp?
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2017-04-07T14:43:49Z shrdlu68: Is this a challenge of deployment? I feel like this is a deployment challenge.
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2017-04-07T14:44:12Z djh_: Nope, this isn't a project I even considered Lisp for
2017-04-07T14:44:33Z Zhivago: djh: Which brings us back to "I can't do anything useful, because I haven't considered doing anything useful."
2017-04-07T14:44:45Z Reinisch: Thanks for letting me soapbox a bit. I saw the "If only I could learn about asdf/deployment/project-management in Lisp," sentiment and felt I had to jump in.
2017-04-07T14:45:37Z djh_: *shrug* Take it how you like, I've no axe to grind. I've just found CL an insurmountable task to get anything useful done, despite having managed it fine in other languages
2017-04-07T14:45:57Z dlowe: You don't *have* to learn asdf before using it. You can just stick a couple of (require 'foo) statements at the beginning of your beginner lisp file
2017-04-07T14:46:05Z Grue`: there's nothing wrong with putting all your code in a single file, I used to code that way
2017-04-07T14:46:26Z shrdlu68: djh_: If you had considered CL for the project, what would have been the first challenge?
2017-04-07T14:46:26Z Zhivago: djh: Well, I'd suggest that you try to call one of your APIs from it, since that's something that you've said would be useful.
2017-04-07T14:46:40Z ogamita: Well, I would agree that there are some considerations specific to lisp with respect to files, that could be better documented (eg. files can be loaded into the compilation environment, which must be done when those files contain functions used by the macros used in the following files compiled).
2017-04-07T14:47:16Z _death: Reinisch: generally when I hit brick walls and feel like giving up, I just leave it for another time.. after some time has passed and I feel ready to tackle it again, it usually works out
2017-04-07T14:47:20Z Grue`: some of my old projects are single ~200kb .lisp files, just because I hated switching between files in Emacs
2017-04-07T14:47:26Z djh_: shrdlu68: probably talking to a database, then talking to the APIs, then running the webservice, then the data munging
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2017-04-07T14:47:46Z ogamita: In anycase, If there's a book "Software Engineering with Java", there can be a book "Modern Software Engineering with Common Lisp".
2017-04-07T14:48:28Z shrdlu68: Database: I've used Postgres on most of my projects, so I've used the postmodern CL library for talking to the db.
2017-04-07T14:48:32Z _death: Reinisch: also some people ask questions.. e.g., here in #lisp
2017-04-07T14:48:47Z shrdlu68: APIs: http? Drakma
2017-04-07T14:49:09Z varjag: i almost never call asdf directly, just do everything via local projects in quicklisp
2017-04-07T14:49:20Z shrdlu68: Running the webservice: hunchentoot, cgi, etc.
2017-04-07T14:50:02Z shrdlu68: There's loads of libraries for common stuff.
2017-04-07T14:51:10Z shrdlu68: And ASDF/quicklisp makes getting these libraries trivial.
2017-04-07T14:53:38Z Reinisch: _death: both good points
2017-04-07T14:54:28Z Reinisch: _death: when I started working with lisp, I wasn't into IRC at all, so asking for help amounted to googling in the dark for hours. It's nice that these communities exist.
2017-04-07T14:55:39Z ogamita: Reinisch: there's also, news:comp.lang.lisp
2017-04-07T14:56:06Z ogamita: Depending on the kind of problem/question, it may be better. And there are of course, the implementation-specific mailling lists.
2017-04-07T14:56:09Z Grue`: when I started working with lisp, I had no internet connectivity, so a local copy of Hyperspec was my only help
2017-04-07T14:57:22Z ogamita: When I started programming, there was no Internet, so I used whatever programming language that was available on the computer.
2017-04-07T14:57:55Z shrdlu68: When I started I...had no computer.
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2017-04-07T15:04:17Z Reinisch: ogamita: at the risk of looking really out of touch, what do you mean? Is that an IRC server/channel? Web address part? you lost me.
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2017-04-07T15:05:06Z phoe_: ogamita: it's a newsgroup.
2017-04-07T15:05:14Z phoe_: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.lisp
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2017-04-07T15:05:41Z phoe_: the kind of forums that was used before forums were a thing.
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2017-04-07T15:08:01Z dlowe: forums predate that via BBSes :)
2017-04-07T15:08:03Z edgar-rft: Reinisch: you can read comp.lang.lisp via Gogle groups: <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.lisp> but for meaningful communication (read/write access) it's better to use a news-reader like Emacs Gnus or any other news-reader of your choice.
2017-04-07T15:08:30Z Reinisch: ahhh, thanks!
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2017-04-07T15:09:11Z _death: dlowe: http://www.lotgd.net/home.php still exists :D
2017-04-07T15:10:13Z dlowe: heh. cute.
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2017-04-07T15:14:55Z edgar-rft: old computers: The bible says that in the beginning there was the word, but they forgot to write down what word-size god's computer had.
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2017-04-07T15:16:46Z shrdlu68: 40-bit, definitely.
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2017-04-07T15:29:51Z nyef: edgar-rft: I thought that God's computer was a massively-parallel bit-serial system, with a distinctly variable word length depending on the data being processed.
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2017-04-07T15:33:36Z presiden: need lisp version https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBpxF32WEAAFVUm.png:large
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2017-04-07T15:34:49Z edgar-rft: presiden: we're not allowed to make pictures of god
2017-04-07T15:34:58Z edgar-rft: nyef: that would perfectly explain all that chaos on earth
2017-04-07T15:35:37Z _death: earth uses chaosnet?
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2017-04-07T15:37:50Z presiden: :)
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2017-04-07T15:48:22Z nyef: edgar-rft: AIUI, the proscription of "graven images" also prohibits star charts, maps of the moon, pictures of Jupiter, and so on.
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2017-04-07T15:49:41Z beach: Hello nyef.  I am back home, so I should be present a bit more from now on.
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2017-04-07T15:56:55Z nyef: beach: Glad to be back home?
2017-04-07T15:57:03Z beach: You bet.
2017-04-07T15:57:09Z beach: I hate to travel.
2017-04-07T15:57:23Z beach: I like to be in other places but I don't like the travel part.
2017-04-07T15:57:37Z nyef: Heh. Yeah, that I can understand. (-:
2017-04-07T15:58:38Z beach: That's the reason I try to stay for a year at least, whenever I can. :)
2017-04-07T15:59:45Z beach: Anyway, despite the dinky laptop, I actually managed to get some work done on the incremental Common Lisp parser of Second Climacs.
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2017-04-07T16:05:10Z shka: i hope you liked els!
2017-04-07T16:05:19Z beach: It was great!
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2017-04-07T16:07:49Z beach: Looking forward to next year though.  I think the food will be significantly better. :)
2017-04-07T16:08:22Z shka: ok, take care, i'm going home
2017-04-07T16:08:26Z shka: yay, friday
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2017-04-07T16:49:20Z phoe: (
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2017-04-07T16:59:56Z pjb  🦆
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2017-04-07T17:37:11Z asdf1234: how do I tell if an object is a hashtable?
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2017-04-07T17:38:36Z Xach: asdf1234: (typep object 'hash-table) is one option.
2017-04-07T17:38:55Z asdf1234: Xach: thanks!
2017-04-07T17:38:56Z Xach: asdf1234: that is the general function. hash-table-p is more specific.
2017-04-07T17:38:59Z White_Flame: clh shash-table-p
2017-04-07T17:39:02Z White_Flame: clhs hash-table-p
2017-04-07T17:39:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_hash_t.htm
2017-04-07T17:39:10Z Xach:  (hash-table-p object) ==  (typep object 'hash-table)
2017-04-07T17:43:11Z phoe: yes, exactly
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2017-04-07T18:04:05Z aeth: You can't always rely on foo-p (or foop) because foo-p doesn't exist for all foos. e.g. floatp exists, but not single-float-p, and there's a simple-vector-p, but it wouldn't really be possible to have a -p function for all array types.
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2017-04-07T18:06:09Z phoe: that's why there is typep
2017-04-07T18:06:17Z aeth: You might also want to use typecase instead of typep if you're checking for more than one type on the same form.
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2017-04-07T18:07:21Z Xach: so many options
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2017-04-07T18:09:23Z aeth: phoe: An alternative probably could have been to extend arrayp to have optional or keyword arguments to check for different kinds of things you can make in make-array. And maybe make floatp similar to float, where it could compare to the subtype of the optional argument if present like (floatp foo 1d0)
2017-04-07T18:09:42Z aeth: So typep wasn't necessary, it's just the way it is in CL.
2017-04-07T18:10:00Z aeth: Probably for simplicity.
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2017-04-07T19:04:47Z pjb: 🦆
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2017-04-07T19:53:47Z haom: hello, is there a standard function that checks whether any element in list1 is also an element in list2?
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2017-04-07T19:55:01Z Bicyclidine: you could check whether intersection is null, but it wouldn't be the fastest.
2017-04-07T19:55:12Z Bicyclidine: i guess i'd just do (some (lambda (e) (find e list2)) list1)
2017-04-07T19:55:24Z Bicyclidine: though there's probably faster ways.
2017-04-07T19:57:07Z phoe: faster? I don't think so
2017-04-07T19:57:20Z phoe: #'find stops as soon as it finds an element, and so does #'some
2017-04-07T19:57:35Z phoe: so this is going to be as fast as possible unless you write a customized loop that has less function calls
2017-04-07T19:57:35Z Bicyclidine: yeah, but a lot of elements in the second list will be checked multiply.
2017-04-07T19:57:47Z phoe: Bicyclidine: what do you mean?
2017-04-07T19:58:06Z phoe: that's an O^2 operation regardless of everything, he has to check a Cartesian product of both lists
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2017-04-07T20:00:03Z phoe: unless you try calling #'remove-duplicates on both lists beforehand which might only slow down execution in the worst case
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2017-04-07T20:02:16Z |3b|: isn't it O(N+M) if you build a hash table from one of the lists first?
2017-04-07T20:02:43Z |3b|: (limits your choice of equality tests though)
2017-04-07T20:03:00Z phoe: oh, hmm
2017-04-07T20:03:13Z phoe: amortized linear then, correct
2017-04-07T20:03:18Z phoe: with some allocation
2017-04-07T20:03:23Z phoe: sounds nice
2017-04-07T20:03:36Z phoe: haom: ^
2017-04-07T20:03:37Z |3b| would probably just use intersection though, assuming it would do something reasonable
2017-04-07T20:03:46Z phoe: clhs intersection
2017-04-07T20:03:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_isec_.htm
2017-04-07T20:03:49Z |3b|: and if that wasn't good enough, try to arrangeto not need to do that :)
2017-04-07T20:04:18Z |3b|: (storing in some format better suited for the problem for example)
2017-04-07T20:05:27Z haom: yeah, i'M... trying to digest what you all just said.
2017-04-07T20:06:16Z phoe: haom: well, to sum up
2017-04-07T20:06:16Z haom: since i'm dealing with rather small sets, i'll go with the some-find combination.
2017-04-07T20:06:23Z phoe: oh, small sets
2017-04-07T20:06:37Z phoe: the lambda will work decently there then, but keep it in mind that it's quadratic in time
2017-04-07T20:06:53Z phoe: so it will explode pretty quickly for larger sets.
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2017-04-07T20:07:22Z phoe: for a more efficient (time-wise) implementation,
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2017-04-07T20:08:26Z phoe: (let ((hash-table (make-hash-table))) (dolist (i list1) (setf (gethash i hash-table) t)) (some (lambda (x) (gethash x hash-table)) list2))
2017-04-07T20:08:29Z phoe: something like this
2017-04-07T20:08:29Z phoe: more or less
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2017-04-07T20:08:48Z phoe: basically: add all elements of list1 to hash-table and then check if any of list2 is present there
2017-04-07T20:09:01Z phoe: if you need to, modify the equality test of the hash-table
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2017-04-07T20:09:35Z phoe: and if you need another equality test, there's a portable hash-table package that's more efficient but has arbitrary tests.
2017-04-07T20:10:13Z haom: okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind if I have to compare larger sets.
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2017-04-07T20:12:11Z phoe: haom: sure thing. Are you writing it for your own use or a library of sorts?
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2017-04-07T20:19:48Z haom: just parsing logs for my own use.
2017-04-07T20:20:35Z phoe: gotcha.
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2017-04-07T20:26:57Z knobo: Would be nice to have CLAST integrated in slime to give continuous feedback for free variables.
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2017-04-07T20:28:02Z knobo: But, maybe it should be an emacs lisp code walker who does that.
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2017-04-07T20:29:22Z knobo: and maybe arnesi's code walker is a better choice.
2017-04-07T20:31:00Z phoe: knobo: there was an ELS '17 talk about a portable code walker
2017-04-07T20:31:06Z phoe: ...and an ELS '16 one, tooo
2017-04-07T20:31:30Z phoe: Michael Raskin keeps on working on this materia
2017-04-07T20:31:57Z knobo: OK. I'll join in '18 and I'll be enlightened about code walkers too.
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2017-04-07T20:35:12Z phoe: :P
2017-04-07T20:35:23Z phoe: knobo: there is a recording of the ELS '16 talk.
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2017-04-07T20:35:41Z phoe: and the recordings of the '17 talks will be published at some time, too.
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2017-04-07T20:37:06Z easye: Ernst van Waning also is preparing a code walker for release.
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2017-04-07T20:40:42Z phoe: easye: oooh wow
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2017-04-07T20:41:47Z easye: Yep.  Ernst is gonna make a play at being a hipster code walker, which he always was.
2017-04-07T20:42:02Z easye: But he has a lot of good things to say about Michael's work.
2017-04-07T20:42:33Z easye: I think both Michael and Ernst should author a CDR.
2017-04-07T20:42:38Z newdan: Xach you are the QL guy right?  Sorry if you get this a lot but do you collect stats on library downloads?  Any chance you'll allow browsing popular systems on the QL site?
2017-04-07T20:43:38Z phoe: there is such a thing, newdan
2017-04-07T20:44:02Z phoe: ...although it seems that Xach updates it only manually once in a long while through blog posts
2017-04-07T20:45:28Z phoe: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/03/february-2015-download-stats.html seems to be the freshmost one
2017-04-07T20:47:21Z newdan: Thanks phoe!
2017-04-07T20:48:56Z XachX: I will do better
2017-04-07T20:49:48Z phoe: XachX: or set up a website that autopublishes those, if these are something you consider public enough of course
2017-04-07T20:50:05Z phoe: I'd love to see some popularity over time graphs
2017-04-07T20:50:41Z drmeister: DEFPARAMETER feels like a long name for a small thing.   What are other aliases people use for it?    I'm thinking like   ':='
2017-04-07T20:51:31Z newdan: drmeister: I think setf is closer to :=
2017-04-07T20:51:55Z phoe: (setf (macro-function 'defpar) (macro-function 'defparameter))
2017-04-07T20:51:55Z foom: In the olden days you could just use setf and it'd automatically establish a dynamic variable if none existed yet.
2017-04-07T20:51:56Z easye: drmeister: I say "yuck".  That's why we have M-x dabbrev-mumble, but if it's your itch, make it local please.
2017-04-07T20:52:20Z drmeister: M-x dabbrev-mumble?
2017-04-07T20:52:34Z easye: Emacs hippy expand and its ilk.
2017-04-07T20:53:06Z easye: Basically a fuzzy search across symbols.  I ensure that everything in COMMON-LISP is "close" to my current expansion function.
2017-04-07T20:53:29Z easye: My argument here is that we should use the ANSI symbols as such, as much as possible.
2017-04-07T20:54:04Z easye: If it is hard to type, which DEFPARAMETER arguably is, then make it "close" to M-/ and friends for input from Emacs.
2017-04-07T20:54:46Z phoe: I say easye has a point with ANSI compliance - if this is code that some other people are meant to read later, and I guess that Clasp is something that other people will want to read later
2017-04-07T20:54:55Z easye: Less cognitive dissonance for someone browsing your code: you can assume the 1084 ANSI symbols are known, but :- isn't.
2017-04-07T20:55:07Z drmeister: Here's why I'm thinking this.    I'm developing Cando for chemists. I'm balking at having them write (DEFPARAMETER x ...)  all the time.   I'm wondering if I should declare a shorthand for DEFPARAMETER.
2017-04-07T20:55:21Z easye: A DSL for chemist would be a valid use case.
2017-04-07T20:55:33Z phoe: Cando, hmm.
2017-04-07T20:55:35Z easye: But think of it as a DSL, not as "Lisp code"/
2017-04-07T20:56:24Z drmeister: My question - What are they going to type into these jupyter notebooks that I'm having them work in?
2017-04-07T20:56:46Z easye: I guess the question is: can you make enough of a DSL so they don't need to know CL?
2017-04-07T20:57:09Z Grue`: using a lot of global variables is kind of considered a bad practice
2017-04-07T20:57:12Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/fkIhi9rE/
2017-04-07T20:57:24Z easye: When you start bifurcating with ':-', you might as well make the whole thing comfortable in Juptyper parlance.
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2017-04-07T20:57:59Z easye: Since Python is the main Jupyter lang AFAIK, you might want to consider making the DSL congruent to Python.
2017-04-07T20:58:07Z Grue`: (defparameters *molecule1* (chem:make-molecule ...) *molecule2* (...) ...)
2017-04-07T20:58:07Z drmeister: I already have a DSL - but if they start doing anything complicated, it's going to be in Common Lisp.
2017-04-07T20:58:30Z phoe: oh, what Grue` posted sounds fun
2017-04-07T20:58:32Z drmeister: Grue: that is an interesting suggestion.
2017-04-07T20:58:39Z phoe: that expands to PROGN with multiple DEFPARAMETERs
2017-04-07T20:58:55Z phoe: I guess you do not want DEFVARs because you want the values to be SETF'd on each reevaluation of that PROGN.
2017-04-07T20:58:55Z drmeister: Sure - I like that.
2017-04-07T20:59:09Z phoe: so I think this could work.
2017-04-07T20:59:22Z drmeister: I want the values to be SETF'd on each reevaluation.
2017-04-07T20:59:37Z phoe: So DEFPARAMETER it is.
2017-04-07T20:59:46Z drmeister: Actually, there are good reasons to have both available, DEFVARS and DEFPARAMETERS
2017-04-07T20:59:55Z phoe: drmeister: DEFVARS is tricky.
2017-04-07T20:59:57Z easye: My point is that, if you are giving them CL as a possible language, don't overly confuse them with synonyms.  Makes the CL "teaching material"--such as it is--slightly confusing to grok.
2017-04-07T21:00:26Z phoe: DEFVAR has an optional argument. It makes parsing varargs troublesome.
2017-04-07T21:01:05Z drmeister: easye: I was thinking of reviving https://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/
2017-04-07T21:01:22Z Grue`: both of them have optional argumetns
2017-04-07T21:01:36Z Grue`: (namely, documentation)
2017-04-07T21:01:37Z phoe: Grue`: uh I don't mean documentation
2017-04-07T21:01:40Z easye: drmeister: For your domain, if you can get things to look like numpy, you'll be way ahead.
2017-04-07T21:01:41Z phoe: I meant value
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2017-04-07T21:02:21Z drmeister: I dunno - looking like numpy but not being numpy is no good.
2017-04-07T21:02:29Z drmeister: pypy looks like numpy - nobody uses it.
2017-04-07T21:02:29Z newdan: drmeister: Seems like a rather large undertaking... what's the value of using CLPython over just using Python?
2017-04-07T21:03:16Z jasom: Grue`: convincing scientists who are writing code to not use globals is challenging; about 75% of the time the code is written for just one, or a small number of experiments, so they don't care about generality, modularization or maintainability, they just want to get stuff done.
2017-04-07T21:03:17Z easye: But if you can give enough to look like Python, it will give those familar with Python a fighting chance.  It might just look like a "weird but better" numpy.
2017-04-07T21:03:18Z drmeister: newdan: That is a long story.   Python is an interpreted language.   I implemented a new implementation of Common Lisp to get a dynamic language that is faster than Python.
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2017-04-07T21:03:28Z jasom apologizes to drmeister for painting with such a broad brush
2017-04-07T21:04:01Z easye: Again, I am considering the pedagogical support you have here.  If it is CL, just keep CL like CL.
2017-04-07T21:04:22Z drmeister: easye: I agree with you.
2017-04-07T21:04:30Z easye: That way you know that anything about CL as far as a teaching material will be "true"
2017-04-07T21:05:06Z easye: k3wl
2017-04-07T21:06:45Z jasom: speaking of numpy, is there a broad numeric tower that is broadly accepted for CL?  I know macsyma is used for symbolic computation, but don't know if it has numeric tools comparable to numpy.
2017-04-07T21:07:56Z easye: jasom: slightly confused.  Is the CL numeric tower not broad enough, i.e. I don't know its status vis a vis numpy.
2017-04-07T21:08:17Z drmeister: I just want some quick way to put things into global variables.    x=:water  / y = '(:H :O :H) /  z = (chem:make-molecule x y)
2017-04-07T21:08:42Z jasom: easye: well numpy starts with typed N-dimensional arrays, which CL already has, but then it adds pretty much every function you'd ever want to do to those N-dimensional arrays
2017-04-07T21:08:44Z drmeister: When you are tooling around in the top level environment.
2017-04-07T21:08:48Z easye: drmeister: that does like nice and terse.  But I wouldn't consider it CL.
2017-04-07T21:10:06Z easye: jasom: there was a good tip at ELS 2017 about using the MOP to wrap such things as mumble-FUNCALL-STANDARD-INSTNACE
2017-04-07T21:10:07Z jasom: drmeister: if you replace FOO = BAR with (defparameter FOO BAR) it works; if you wanted a shorter alias, perhaps gset?
2017-04-07T21:10:47Z easye: <http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/funcallable-instances.html>
2017-04-07T21:11:02Z drmeister: In ECL and Clasp there are these top level commands:
2017-04-07T21:11:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/MPUVIM8h/
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2017-04-07T21:11:52Z easye: With that, one can construct composition, inverse, etc. for basic wiring.  I was shown code to get array composition working nicely at the REPL.
2017-04-07T21:12:04Z easye: s/array/matric/
2017-04-07T21:12:11Z easye: s/array/matrix/
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2017-04-07T21:12:26Z easye: And of course, it generalizes to Tensors.
2017-04-07T21:12:34Z drmeister: I only use them when I'm in the debugger - I don't even know how they take arguments
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2017-04-07T21:12:56Z drmeister: I'm looking them up now
2017-04-07T21:13:18Z jasom: easy: numpy is pretty broad though: https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/routines.financial.html https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/routines.random.html https://docs.scipy.org/doc/numpy/reference/routines.statistics.html
2017-04-07T21:14:15Z drmeister: You do things like  -->    :cf "a.lsp"    which is equivalent to (compile-file "a.lsp")
2017-04-07T21:14:23Z drmeister: It only works on the top level.
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2017-04-07T21:14:40Z easye: Marco Heisig was the one who whipped up the code.
2017-04-07T21:14:44Z jasom: easye: sadly before I learned about tensors, I forgot too much of my linear algebra to understand them well.  I need to brush up as entire categories of physics are inaccessible without tensors
2017-04-07T21:15:30Z easye: Well, "category" is the operative word.  Learn about Category Theory: it will rock your world.
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2017-04-07T21:16:46Z easye: My undergraduate physics would have been a lot different if I had understood groups, let alone their generalization as categories.
2017-04-07T21:17:33Z jasom: I dropped out of undergrad physics after burning out and went into computers, but I still like to pay some attention.  A few years back I read about a type of laser that I couldn't understand how it worked, so I got a recommendation for a nonlinear optics book; my math was so far gone that I couldn't follow a lot of it, but fortunately it was only second harmonic generation that was involved, and the math for
2017-04-07T21:17:36Z jasom: that is quite simple.
2017-04-07T21:18:05Z easye: Math is a muscle: it needs exercise to stay in shape.
2017-04-07T21:19:03Z easye: Like writing.
2017-04-07T21:19:04Z jasom: And it was a *long* time between my last math class and graduating, because 2 years of undergrad physics math requirements was overkill for a CS degree.
2017-04-07T21:21:32Z easye: Experience is rarely an overkill.  It comes in handy in unexpected places.
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2017-04-07T21:23:37Z jasom: easye: oh, I have used my physics knowledge many times, just not to get the magic piece of paper from the university.
2017-04-07T21:23:49Z easye never got the paper.
2017-04-07T21:24:28Z jasom: easye: much respect; you need to be better to open doors without it, than with it.
2017-04-07T21:25:21Z easye: Eh.  I think actually getting the degree is important.  I still regret not doing it when it was easy to finish.
2017-04-07T21:25:36Z easye: Finishing things is important.
2017-04-07T21:25:47Z easye: That much I have learned.
2017-04-07T21:26:39Z jasom: easye: yes, it is very hard to go back to undergrad; (my dad said that every time it looked like I might quit).
2017-04-07T21:26:59Z easye: I guess I am stronger, not having the credentials to rely on, but it makes certain activites, say teaching, harder to do.
2017-04-07T21:27:55Z easye likes teaching things to people who want to learn them.
2017-04-07T21:28:07Z newdan: easye: Feel you on that.  Dropped out for a job, regret it strongly.  Still hope I can go back and finish it soon but would've been easier to just stick with it.  Now I have car debt and other dumb choices I need to pay down first
2017-04-07T21:29:01Z jasom: newdan: I 100% dodged a bullet; I was weighing a full-time offer when the dot-com crash happened and the company that made the offer went out of business.  If I had decided faster, I would have been in a really bad place.
2017-04-07T21:31:17Z newdan: Wow, glad you avoided that, holy smokes
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2017-04-07T22:12:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: drmeister: I've been interested in reviving clpython myself
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2017-04-07T22:32:44Z drmeister: fiddlerwoaroof: Did you write it?
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2017-04-07T22:43:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: no
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2017-04-07T22:43:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've been interested in it ever since I've discovered it
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2017-04-07T23:14:26Z varjag: how accurate ccl's internal timer is?
2017-04-07T23:14:37Z varjag: the claimed res is microsecond
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2017-04-07T23:16:38Z varjag: ok, it seems to use the os timeval.usec
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2017-04-07T23:25:44Z jack_rabbit: does anybody know how to get a hold of the IO streams for a CLIM application?
2017-04-07T23:26:18Z oleo: ?
2017-04-07T23:26:31Z oleo: *standar-output* *standard-input*
2017-04-07T23:26:38Z oleo: *standard-error*
2017-04-07T23:26:58Z oleo: all are instance relative
2017-04-07T23:27:26Z oleo: *query-io* *terminal-io*
2017-04-07T23:28:16Z oleo: the underlying lisp has them too, but the clim ones are thread specific.....
2017-04-07T23:28:18Z oleo: afaik
2017-04-07T23:29:02Z oleo: stream t is a special case and not always that what you expect afaik.....
2017-04-07T23:29:06Z jack_rabbit: right, I should be more specific.
2017-04-07T23:29:09Z oleo: a shortcut mostly
2017-04-07T23:29:32Z jack_rabbit: I want to get one from a repl into the lisp
2017-04-07T23:29:52Z oleo: ahh
2017-04-07T23:30:25Z jack_rabbit: CLIM seems to be event-based. I've not figured out how to use it as an output place for some non-interactive code
2017-04-07T23:30:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: jack_rabbit: the best thing to do is to save the stream into a variable ahead of time
2017-04-07T23:30:31Z oleo: hmm, i'd bet on *terminal-io* then, but i've not tested it.....
2017-04-07T23:30:35Z jack_rabbit: Or at least minimally-interactive.
2017-04-07T23:30:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, jack_rabbit, every pane in CLIM is a stream
2017-04-07T23:30:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's part of it's design
2017-04-07T23:30:51Z jack_rabbit: hmmm.
2017-04-07T23:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/alimenta/blob/master/alimenta-clim.lisp#L47
2017-04-07T23:31:25Z jack_rabbit: But there isn't an instance of the pane until I run the application, right?
2017-04-07T23:31:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: .
2017-04-07T23:31:37Z oleo: right
2017-04-07T23:32:00Z oleo: but there are methods
2017-04-07T23:32:17Z oleo: since the instance is a class instantiation......
2017-04-07T23:32:36Z oleo: you can alter it's behaviour by adding methods
2017-04-07T23:32:37Z jack_rabbit: So I can grab the panes from the main application frame instance?
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2017-04-07T23:32:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Essentially
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2017-04-07T23:33:30Z jack_rabbit: Okay. Is this how I should be doing it? I haven't found a way to say "run this application and also this function which is hooked up to this pane as an output stream"
2017-04-07T23:35:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think, normally, you use display functions to keep the interface up to date
2017-04-07T23:35:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: And then you define command to modify the state
2017-04-07T23:35:53Z oleo: there are pdfs describing all the parts
2017-04-07T23:36:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, I've only dabbled
2017-04-07T23:36:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/main.html
2017-04-07T23:36:22Z oleo: the spec, an overview and a preliminary non-complete manual....
2017-04-07T23:36:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: The manual draft was pretty helpful, albeit incomplete.
2017-04-07T23:36:39Z oleo: right
2017-04-07T23:36:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's also #clim, but it's mostly active at night, US time
2017-04-07T23:37:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I think)
2017-04-07T23:37:08Z oleo: and i'm not sure why no-one writes a better extended one on the metaphysics of mcclim......
2017-04-07T23:37:13Z oleo: lol
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2017-04-07T23:37:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hm, I haven't seen this before: http://www.kantz.com/clim-primer/index.htm
2017-04-07T23:38:14Z oleo: i have seen it
2017-04-07T23:38:54Z oleo: but it's only a small part it covers....
2017-04-07T23:39:07Z oleo: there are sheets, grafts, mirrors.....
2017-04-07T23:39:36Z oleo: many stuff you necessarily don't get what it is all about right from the start....
2017-04-07T23:39:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: As usual, we could use more documentation :)
2017-04-07T23:39:45Z oleo: ya definetely
2017-04-07T23:40:05Z oleo: incremental-display etc etc....
2017-04-07T23:40:16Z oleo: updating functions and so on....
2017-04-07T23:40:44Z oleo: it gets complex pretty quick
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2017-04-07T23:45:18Z jack_rabbit: Thanks. I'll give all that a look
2017-04-07T23:45:33Z jack_rabbit: It seemed a little complex.
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2017-04-07T23:55:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: At this point, the best thing to do is to look at clim apps
2017-04-07T23:55:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: when you get stuck
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2017-04-08T03:25:01Z gigamonkey: Heh. I needed to do something with JSON so I googled around a bit and ended up at https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries which reminded me that I actually wrote a JSON library.
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2017-04-08T03:37:30Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-08T03:37:45Z gigamonkey: Morning.
2017-04-08T03:39:34Z beach: gigamonkey: Hey.  Welcome back!
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2017-04-08T03:46:20Z gigamonkey: Thanks!
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2017-04-08T03:50:40Z Fade: 'morning, fellas.
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2017-04-08T03:52:01Z beach: Hello Fade.
2017-04-08T03:52:16Z slyrus: and 'evening y'all :)
2017-04-08T03:52:53Z beach hopes that things will calm down now that ELS2017 is done and over.
2017-04-08T03:53:14Z slyrus: calm down? Did they get exciting?
2017-04-08T03:53:59Z beach: I had two papers, and two presentations.  Plus it seemed like an uncountable number of people wanted my opinions on their papers and slides.
2017-04-08T03:54:29Z slyrus: those are all good things :)
2017-04-08T03:54:39Z beach: I agree.  But also exhausting.
2017-04-08T03:54:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: is the SICL spec available in compiled form?
2017-04-08T03:55:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: the Makefile in /Specification doesn't seem to work on my computer
2017-04-08T03:55:08Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know, but I can compile it for you in a matter of seconds.
2017-04-08T03:55:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
2017-04-08T03:56:08Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sicl.pdf
2017-04-08T03:56:15Z beach: Not necessarily totally up to date.
2017-04-08T03:57:10Z beach: I just saw, for instance, that the chapter on the sequence functions needs to be updated to conform to the ELS paper we presented.
2017-04-08T03:57:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: :) I was just interested in what it has to say about environments
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2017-04-08T03:57:47Z beach: There is a paper on that.
2017-04-08T03:58:08Z beach: This one: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf
2017-04-08T03:58:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: thanks, I'll look at that too
2017-04-08T03:58:52Z beach: I have yet to define a CLOS version of the CLtL2 environment functions.
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2017-04-08T03:59:37Z beach: But that needs to be done at some point.
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2017-04-08T04:19:32Z beach: Second Climacs now shows the beginning of a top-level expression that is not complete when end-of-file is reached: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.png
2017-04-08T04:19:49Z beach: Notice the missing right parenthesis at the end of the function FF.
2017-04-08T04:21:19Z beach: I may change the way it is displayed in the future.  Maybe I will have gray vertical bands to the left and right like Emacs does, and use those to display such information.
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2017-04-08T04:35:16Z beach: The blue thing between the definitions of FF and GG is the cursor.
2017-04-08T04:35:47Z beach: It is the orange background of the left parenthesis that shows the end-of-file information.
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2017-04-08T04:46:58Z nyef: beach: Will you be adding paredit-like functionality to the lisp mode?
2017-04-08T04:47:05Z beach: Definitely.
2017-04-08T04:47:20Z beach: Mostly because it will make the entire thing faster.
2017-04-08T04:47:33Z nyef: Heh.
2017-04-08T04:47:41Z beach: It is fast enough anyway, but still.
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2017-04-08T04:52:00Z beach: nyef: What is the reason you are not using SLIME again?
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2017-04-08T04:53:42Z nyef: Got far too badly burned by a period of instability in SLIME/SWANK, on the level of "any time I do anything with a connected instance, the connection crashes".
2017-04-08T04:53:58Z nyef: And debugging it was just too much.
2017-04-08T04:54:08Z beach: Got it.
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2017-04-08T04:56:15Z nyef: Has the protocol been sorted out to the point where it's versioned, there's a proper spec, and it's not changable at what amounts to a whim of the SLIME developers, so that it can be used by other clients without having to play stupid maintenance games for dealing with an ad-hoc piece of junk?
2017-04-08T04:56:40Z beach has no idea.
2017-04-08T04:56:58Z nyef: Yeah, I don't either. But that's one of my conditions for *ever* using SLIME again.
2017-04-08T04:57:10Z beach: I fully understand.
2017-04-08T04:58:52Z nyef: On the other hand, given some of what we've been discussing recently, I may just make my own editor integration protocol, since I firmly believe that ones editor must not up and crash when one's program screws up, and FFI is intrinsically dangerous.
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2017-04-08T05:00:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyef: there was, a while ago, an attempt to implement the nrepl protocol in Common Lisp
2017-04-08T05:00:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forget who was doing it, but they were talking about it back here
2017-04-08T05:00:48Z beach: Right.  And what you just said is related to the quality of our Common Lisp implementations.  They should definitely allow for one thread to "crash" while others continue to run.
2017-04-08T05:01:21Z nyef: Again, the problem is FFI. It is very easy to use FFI to screw up *every* thread in a process.
2017-04-08T05:01:31Z beach: ... and that pretty much rules out FFI, at least when it is used indiscriminately.
2017-04-08T05:01:45Z beach: nyef: Exactly.
2017-04-08T05:02:35Z nyef: But we can't rule out FFI, because we need to interact with the outside world, and a good chunk of the outside world is not written in Lisp.
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2017-04-08T05:03:12Z nyef: So we fall back to the only approach that actually works in such instances: Separate address spaces, and marshalling things across.
2017-04-08T05:04:21Z nyef: On one level, it's an RPC interface, on another, it's a protocol. And it needs to be implemented, documented, and versioned as a protocol, not treated as straight function calls.
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2017-04-08T05:11:12Z beach: As I see it, the problem with FFI is when the application programmer is forced to use it in order to get things done, as opposed to when the Common Lisp implementation uses FFI to provide a safe Common Lisp interface to the external functionality that is required to get things done.
2017-04-08T05:12:47Z beach: But, yeah, given the frequency of FFI questions and FFI-related problems that I see in this channel, I will be one of the few people using Second Climacs.
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2017-04-08T05:21:48Z beach: And, incidentally, I now know what it means when people say "I will NEVER use an editor that runs in the same process as my application".  It means "I intend to use unsafe foreign code as a major part of my application, and it will crash the entire Common Lisp system".
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2017-04-08T05:24:36Z nyef: Or it could mean "I freely acknowledge that I *may* end up running unsafe foreign code as part of my application, either directly or by using a library that may do so".
2017-04-08T05:25:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder if you could use virtualization instructions to run foreign code safely
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2017-04-08T05:26:19Z beach: That would certainly be an interesting approach if feasible.
2017-04-08T05:27:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://stackoverflow.com/a/25787391
2017-04-08T05:27:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: "As they mention, the memory space protection implemented in VT allows software to run only its own code, and access only its own memory spaces. This has a lot of potential in e-security.
2017-04-08T05:29:52Z beach: So here is an interesting question (for me at least): Why do people prefer to run foreign code as part of the Common Lisp system address space, thereby requiring the editor to be in a different process, rather than running the foreign code in a different address space, thereby keeping the Common Lisp system safe so that the editor can be part of it?
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2017-04-08T05:30:47Z nyef: It's cheaper to pay the marshalling costs across the editor-to-program boundary than the lisp-program-to-foreign-library boundary?
2017-04-08T05:31:04Z beach: Sounds plausible.
2017-04-08T05:31:34Z beach: ... where "cost" means execution time.  With programmer time, it becomes the opposite.
2017-04-08T05:31:48Z nyef: (Editor-to-program integration needs to proceed at human interaction speed, program-to-opengl (or other library) may need to proceed considerably faster.)
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2017-04-08T05:35:48Z beach is reminded of an argument that he frequently hears from C++ programmers, namely "we need all the speed we can get", which he has often observed means that the project will be canceled because there is not enough money to finish it.
2017-04-08T05:36:50Z nyef: Overall, it's an economic consideration.  Either you run the risk of the entire system packing it in on certain kinds of error, or you partition things so that at least part of the system stays running if things "go wrong". And once you decide to partition, you have to decide where the partition goes.
2017-04-08T05:37:30Z nyef: Ultimately, the problem is that it's not easy to install such a partition in the first place, or move it once it's installed.
2017-04-08T05:37:48Z beach: I can definitely see that.
2017-04-08T05:38:04Z nyef: So it tends to get put where it won't be part of the "finished system".
2017-04-08T05:38:27Z beach: It is consistent with my observation about C++ programmers.
2017-04-08T05:38:31Z nyef: Because, yes, the partition is expensive in installation, in maintenance, and in operation.
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2017-04-08T05:41:42Z beach: I should write this stuff down.  I may become part of my book on software engineering.
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2017-04-08T05:44:56Z nyef: Another way to look at things is that running an editor in the same process as your application is an assertion that you *will not* perform unsafe FFI operations.
2017-04-08T05:45:20Z nyef: And, unfortunately, *developing* FFI operations is often unsafe.
2017-04-08T05:45:34Z beach: I agree.
2017-04-08T05:45:36Z nyef: And that leaves aside the possibility of bugs in the foreign code.
2017-04-08T05:46:47Z beach: This argument is related to a discussion we had in the past over disagreement about development environments.  I think we saw a distinction between a "system programmer" and an "application programmer" in the different tools they need.
2017-04-08T05:47:37Z nyef: It wouldn't surprise me.
2017-04-08T05:49:49Z nyef sighs.
2017-04-08T05:50:08Z nyef: And I'm not seeing any way to make a "transparent" partition for general FFI work.
2017-04-08T05:51:08Z nyef: Especially if said FFI work involves foreign threads.
2017-04-08T05:52:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder about something like Google's NaCL
2017-04-08T05:53:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: The goal there is to make it safe to run compiled c code delivered over the web
2017-04-08T05:54:00Z nyef: ... As opposed to NaCL the emacs common lisp implementation?
2017-04-08T05:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Native_Client
2017-04-08T05:54:15Z beach: That would certainly be a great thing for Common Lisp and foreign code.
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2017-04-08T05:57:23Z nyef: Hrm. Code verifier, restrictions on branches...
2017-04-08T05:57:40Z nyef: ... custom compiler stack!
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2017-04-08T05:58:06Z nyef: This won't fly for our FFI. /-:
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2017-04-08T07:11:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: you around? spinneret seems to be depending on a non-existent export from serapeum
2017-04-08T07:11:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/ruricolist/spinneret/issues/17
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2017-04-08T07:13:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Nevermind, I guess newer serapeum has it
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2017-04-08T07:42:49Z shrdlu68 is going mad because of fan noise
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2017-04-08T07:54:17Z pjb: shrdlu68: launch the flight simulator!
2017-04-08T07:54:32Z pjb: Drown the noise into the reactors' sound!
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2017-04-08T08:31:03Z haom: if I have a cffi defcstruct that looks like this: (defcstruct struct (a :int) (b :int :count 5) (c :int)), can somebody give me a hint how exactly the slot "b" is supposed to be set?
2017-04-08T08:32:46Z haom: convert-to-foreign expects a plist as input, something like (a 1 b ??? c 2), and then returns a pointer to that struct.
2017-04-08T08:33:38Z haom: but I can not figure out how it expects the C array to be input. (it refuses an lisp array)
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2017-04-08T08:34:06Z haom: and it refuses a pointer to a foreign array.
2017-04-08T08:35:18Z loke___: haom: Allocate a pointer to the stuct using WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT, then set the individual members using SETF FOREIGN-SLOT-VALUE
2017-04-08T08:37:22Z haom: i know that, my question was how to set a foreign array which is a slot in the struct?
2017-04-08T08:38:01Z haom: as a lisp array, as a separately allocated pointer?
2017-04-08T08:38:41Z haom: I've tried several things, but nothing is accepted, so i'm out of ideas.
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2017-04-08T08:39:56Z pjb: haom: using MEM-AREF
2017-04-08T08:40:04Z pjb: I would say.
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2017-04-08T08:41:35Z pjb: probably with: foreign-slot-pointer
2017-04-08T08:42:47Z haom: ok, that sounds promising, let me try that.
2017-04-08T08:42:50Z pjb: (with-foreign-object (s '(:struct struct)) (setf (mem-aref (foreign-slot-pointer s '(:struct struct) 'b) :int index) value))
2017-04-08T08:43:00Z pjb: is what I would try.
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2017-04-08T08:53:25Z spatial: http://lpaste.net/354427 Is the value of num-runs in finally the same as the one passed as parameter ? Is it decremented?
2017-04-08T08:54:19Z spatial: repeat num-runs do doesn't change the value of num-runs. Does it ?
2017-04-08T08:54:42Z shrdlu68: I don't like how emacs indents the slot-entries arguments to with-slots: http://imgur.com/8DYu1wU
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2017-04-08T08:56:52Z shrdlu68: Why does it indent the second row further than the first?
2017-04-08T08:57:22Z Grue`: it thinks it's a function call
2017-04-08T08:57:37Z Grue`: and no, repeat loop clause doesn't change its parameter
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2017-04-08T08:58:45Z Grue`: also what's with that font, how is that even readable?
2017-04-08T08:59:20Z shrdlu68: Grue`: Ubuntu font, I like it.
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2017-04-08T08:59:52Z shrdlu68: No other font seems to work for me.
2017-04-08T09:00:12Z pjb: spatial: how do you modify an integer?
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2017-04-08T09:01:03Z shrdlu68: Grue`: Maybe you didn't expand the image? Looks fine to me.
2017-04-08T09:02:28Z spatial: pjb : Just converting some lisp to haskell. Was recursively decrement it by mistake.
2017-04-08T09:02:38Z pjb: ok.
2017-04-08T09:03:32Z pjb: spatial: there are two classes of values in lisp: immutable values: numbers and character, and (potentially) mutable value (all the rest) which have slots that can be bound to different values over time.
2017-04-08T09:04:14Z pjb: Only a variable (a place) can be decremented, and can have different values at different times.  An integer object is always the same, immutable.
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2017-04-08T09:04:55Z pjb: spatial: now, the trick is when you have a form like (loop repeat x) is to know that x is actually an expression, not a place!
2017-04-08T09:05:09Z pjb: spatial: this means that it will be evaluated to get a value, and no place can be modified.
2017-04-08T09:05:30Z pjb: clhs loop
2017-04-08T09:05:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-04-08T09:05:37Z pjb: says: termination-test::= while form | until form | repeat form | always form | never form | thereis form
2017-04-08T09:05:38Z pjb:  
2017-04-08T09:05:55Z pjb: repeat <form>  <-- this is an expression, not a place or variable.
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2017-04-08T09:17:05Z haom: pjb: again, i had no luck with foreign-slot-pointer and mem-aref. in every case, I get an "no applicable method for translate-into-foreign-memory" error.
2017-04-08T09:19:30Z pjb: haom: wfm: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343787
2017-04-08T09:23:47Z haom: pjb, youre a great help, but i am obviously overlooking something else. I've got your paste working for me too now, but my original code doesnt.
2017-04-08T09:24:17Z pjb: Then you will have to debug.
2017-04-08T09:24:57Z haom: thanks for your help anyway.
2017-04-08T09:25:08Z malice: Hi, how can I find how much memory does some thing take? More specifically, I am making trie and I would like to see how much memory does it take, but it consists of nodes, so I'd need to count them too.
2017-04-08T09:25:09Z pjb: Try it step by step, at the REPL.
2017-04-08T09:25:40Z pjb: malice: you can write functions to count objects, and use (ROOM) and (ROOM T).
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2017-04-08T09:39:46Z easye: gee.  It would be nice to have a "human scale" option from ROOM, i.e. "14.4 Gib" instead of "14400000000 bytes".  Of course that is implementation specific.
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2017-04-08T09:47:29Z kami: Hello #lisp
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2017-04-08T09:48:10Z varjag: hi kami
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2017-04-08T10:04:11Z shaftoe: nice, postmodern ssl connection "just works"
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2017-04-08T10:40:59Z shrdlu68: Interesting. Testing cl-tls against gnutls, and the gnutls-serv program keeps getting internal errors.
2017-04-08T10:42:30Z shrdlu68: Openssl s_server doesn't.
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2017-04-08T10:54:13Z pjb: shrdlu68: you know what they used to test cl-tls while developing it.
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2017-04-08T10:58:41Z shrdlu68: pjb: I'm developing cl-tls. I still haven't released it, but I'm close.
2017-04-08T10:59:40Z shrdlu68: I've mostly been testing using gnutls and openssl locally, and servers on the web.
2017-04-08T11:08:53Z pjb: Great.  I would advise using a fuzzer to test it.
2017-04-08T11:09:08Z pjb: A simple one is radamsa (written in scheme, so it remains in the family).
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2017-04-08T11:10:29Z shrdlu68: pjb: I will. The project itself started as an attempt to create a newtwork-based fuzzer for tls.
2017-04-08T11:10:43Z pjb: Fine.
2017-04-08T11:11:04Z shrdlu68: I will check radamsa out.
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2017-04-08T12:07:47Z shrdlu68: If a slot is shared in class a, would it also be shared in instances of subclasses of a?
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2017-04-08T12:09:55Z _death: yes.. unless you have :allocation :instance in your subclass
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2017-04-08T12:15:20Z shrdlu68: I see. But allocation is not inheritable. i.e slot-value foo in an instance of a is not shared among instances of b, which subclasses a.
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2017-04-08T12:16:17Z shrdlu68: s/subclasses a/superclasses a/
2017-04-08T12:16:34Z _death: not sure what you mean
2017-04-08T12:17:35Z shrdlu68: Class a has a slot foo which is shared.
2017-04-08T12:17:48Z shrdlu68: Class b is a subclass of a.
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2017-04-08T12:18:33Z shrdlu68: b does not change foo's slot, it inherits as it is.
2017-04-08T12:18:46Z shrdlu68: Will instances of b share slot foo?
2017-04-08T12:18:50Z _death: yes
2017-04-08T12:19:08Z _death: clhs defclass
2017-04-08T12:19:08Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
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2017-04-08T12:19:31Z shrdlu68: Ok, thanks.
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2017-04-08T12:34:32Z pjb: clhs defclass If a class C1 defines such a shared slot, any subclass C2 of C1 will share this single slot unless the defclass form for C2 specifies a slot of the same name or there is a superclass of C2 that precedes C1 in the class precedence list of C2 and that defines a slot of the same name.
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2017-04-08T12:46:53Z shrdlu68: My confusion was that the sharing will only be among instances of C2.
2017-04-08T12:47:12Z shrdlu68: Instances of C1 will not share with instances of C2. Silly me.
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2017-04-08T12:48:53Z _death: yes they will
2017-04-08T12:49:44Z _death: write a snippet of code and tell us what you find surprising
2017-04-08T12:49:50Z pjb: C1(a) C1<-C2 C1<-C3    (setf (slot-value o2 'a) 42) (slot-value o3 'a) --> 42
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2017-04-08T12:56:26Z shrdlu68: Indeed they do.
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2017-04-08T13:10:58Z afidegnum: hello good morning,anyone used McClim ? what's its status? is it commercially deployable ?
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2017-04-08T13:17:13Z pjb: afidegnum: check for example gsharp.  IIRC it uses McCLIM.
2017-04-08T13:17:29Z pjb: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/gsharp/gsharp
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2017-04-08T13:17:59Z afidegnum: ok
2017-04-08T13:18:04Z pjb: Or my fork: https://framagit.org/abnotation/gsharp
2017-04-08T13:19:01Z pjb: You should also ask beach about climatics and CLIM 2.
2017-04-08T13:19:14Z afidegnum: but i can't seem to find real-time applications, except those mentioned in tutorials
2017-04-08T13:19:20Z pjb: real-timeA?
2017-04-08T13:19:29Z afidegnum: it seems CLIM 2 is from Fraz, right ?
2017-04-08T13:19:36Z afidegnum: Franz
2017-04-08T13:19:54Z afidegnum: yes,
2017-04-08T13:20:08Z pjb: CLIM is a user interface, it works in real-time for the user: the user types a key, and usually he gets feedback in less than 100 ms.
2017-04-08T13:20:26Z pjb: That kind of real-time?
2017-04-08T13:21:00Z afidegnum: no, what i mean  most application  deployed  are in either Tk, Wx GTK or Qt, not much of CLIM
2017-04-08T13:21:41Z pjb: Well, it's probably more a question of backends, and native-look.
2017-04-08T13:21:45Z shrdlu68: In loop, how does one create muptiple variables in a for clause for a function that returns multiple values?
2017-04-08T13:22:18Z shrdlu68: (loop for (a b) = (foo)...only works for lists
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2017-04-08T13:23:55Z _death: shrdlu68: no support for that.. multiple-value-list may be helpful, although it conses, or you may use multiple-value-bind
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2017-04-08T13:24:50Z pjb: for (p q) = (multiple-value-list (truncate a b))
2017-04-08T13:25:12Z afidegnum: erm....isn't this where gensys or lexical variable coming in?
2017-04-08T13:27:05Z pjb: .-                                                                                                                                             -*/-**-/*-------
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2017-04-08T13:28:33Z pjb: oops, ECOKEY - cat on keyboard error…
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2017-04-08T13:49:56Z Grue`: (loop with a and b for i from 1 to 10 do (setf (values a b) (truncate i 3))  ...)
2017-04-08T13:50:01Z Grue`: no consing ;)
2017-04-08T13:50:55Z Grue`: though why loop for = doesn't support arbitrary setfable places is beyond me
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2017-04-08T14:50:34Z spatial: One more question. (init) in http://lpaste.net/354427 is called repeatedly ? Converting this to haskell.
2017-04-08T14:55:35Z pjb: Yes.
2017-04-08T14:56:23Z spatial: pfb: Thanks. Just learning Reinforcement learning by converting some samples.
2017-04-08T14:57:19Z spatial: Everything works but the RL doesn't seem to be learning much.
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2017-04-08T16:21:30Z aeth: Wow pjb's cat scratched the middle of my IRC logs
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2017-04-08T16:27:54Z dschoepe: Does anyone know if videos of the talks from ELS are (or will be) available online somewhere?
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2017-04-08T16:28:57Z TMA: dschoepe: it was said earlier here, that they will be available. no time frame was given
2017-04-08T16:29:24Z dschoepe: TMA: ah cool, thanks.
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2017-04-08T17:28:21Z lispisfun: If I call json:json-encode-to-string on the alist '((foo 1) (bar 2)), jquery does not recognise the result and won't work with it.  If I surround the alist as follows '#(((foo 1 )(bar 2))), jquery is happy.  Can anyone point out what is going on here?
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2017-04-08T17:30:38Z krrrcks: lispisfun: What do you expect from jquery to "work with"?
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2017-04-08T17:32:58Z krrrcks: lispisfun: If you want {"foo":1, "bar":2} you should build your alist like '((foo . 1) (bar . 2))
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2017-04-08T17:33:29Z krrrcks: otherwise it gets [["foo",1],["bar",2]].
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2017-04-08T17:34:58Z lispisfun: I was sending the string '{foo : 1, bar: 2}', and this wouldn't parse into json.  But '[{foo : 1, bar: 2}]' does.
2017-04-08T17:36:30Z lispisfun: by send I mean the response to a ajax call from client
2017-04-08T17:36:50Z krrrcks: Didn't get your point; (json:decode-json-from-string "{\"foo\":1,\"bar\":2}") is converted to the a-list ((:FOO . 1) (:BAR . 2))
2017-04-08T17:38:02Z lispisfun: I'm encoding the alist, and that doesn't work.  I have to wrap the alist and then encode it.
2017-04-08T17:38:45Z krrrcks: well, the a-list you gave gives for the key 'foo the value '(1).
2017-04-08T17:38:55Z krrrcks: Is that what you want?
2017-04-08T17:39:30Z lispisfun: key 'foo value 1
2017-04-08T17:39:36Z krrrcks: If you want an a-list where the value of 'foo is simply 1 then the a-list has to be: '((foo . 1))
2017-04-08T17:39:49Z krrrcks: lispisfun: no. consider the spec: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_a.htm#association_list
2017-04-08T17:40:03Z krrrcks: for every list of conses the car is the key and the cdr is the value.
2017-04-08T17:42:57Z lispisfun: krrrcks: ah I see thanks
2017-04-08T17:43:11Z krrrcks: lispisfun: You're welcome!
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2017-04-08T19:09:28Z enzuru: So... I am thinking about using fset to program with immutable types. However, I do like CLOS and wanted to use objects immutably... I am afraid of performance issues with copying objects on every change. Does anyone have any suggestions?
2017-04-08T19:09:40Z enzuru: Are there already some libraries for creating new CLOS objects after a change is done to them?
2017-04-08T19:10:32Z enzuru: I am not actually programming a thing that requires high performance, I am just afraid doing a normal copy of a CLOS object every time might just be sloppy, but I am unsure if there is any other ready made solution out there, sorta like what fset does with its immutable types, but for CLOS.
2017-04-08T19:13:42Z varjag: fset uses a balanced tree underneath, you don't copy that much
2017-04-08T19:14:15Z varjag: it's more algorithmically efficient than naive set ops
2017-04-08T19:14:25Z enzuru: But fset has its own types, it doesn't effect CLOS objects right?
2017-04-08T19:14:34Z enzuru: so if I wanted to use CLOS objects like fset deals with its own types... ie, immutable
2017-04-08T19:14:43Z varjag: fset is clos based
2017-04-08T19:15:04Z varjag: you can grab the source and see
2017-04-08T19:16:09Z enzuru: i see. so i should be able to use fset functions on clos entities
2017-04-08T19:16:40Z varjag: it has a brief manual where author explains the approach and limitations
2017-04-08T19:17:02Z varjag: he shadows a bunch of lisp seqence and set functions
2017-04-08T19:17:22Z varjag: typically, when you get to set/bags/maps based algorithms
2017-04-08T19:17:32Z varjag: the constant overhead is your least concern
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2017-04-08T19:18:43Z varjag: do O(n^2) in the wrong place, and puff it goes
2017-04-08T19:19:25Z enzuru: thanks for your direction. reading through fset a bit more carefully this time
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2017-04-08T19:22:04Z varjag: enzuru: there's section 2.7 and 2.8 that are of interest
2017-04-08T19:22:23Z varjag: adding new types and performance considerations
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2017-04-08T19:29:01Z enzuru: ah yes, thank you
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2017-04-08T20:05:05Z enzuru: varjag... something is still not clear to me. if i wanted to modify a slot in an object using fset, and then get a brand new object, is that possible? i see lots of the "integrating your own types" has to do with those types being in collections
2017-04-08T20:05:25Z enzuru: right now if i modify a slot in an object using fset, it just returns a new value of that slot, rather than a new object
2017-04-08T20:05:45Z enzuru: it's very possible i am just thinking about this wrong... should i create a new object every time with the new value, perhaps?
2017-04-08T20:05:53Z enzuru: to preserve immutability
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2017-04-08T20:15:48Z varjag: enzuru: i'm not sure what you mean here
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2017-04-08T20:16:34Z varjag: if you add an element to a fset collection you don't modify anything
2017-04-08T20:17:01Z varjag: you get a new node atop existing tree
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2017-04-08T20:19:23Z enzuru: i'm not interested in modifying a collection though. i'm interested in modifying the value of an object
2017-04-08T20:19:32Z enzuru: and then getting the new versino of that object
2017-04-08T20:20:42Z dschoepe: enzuru: I think you'd actually have to create a new object (via make-instance for example). All fset gives you is immutable collections. If you use that with e.g. setf on slots, you still mutate the old object.
2017-04-08T20:21:07Z enzuru: ah, gotcha. is creating a new object very often expensive? is there a better approach?
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2017-04-08T20:21:21Z enzuru: it just seems if i want to functionally program, i need to use immutable objects
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2017-04-08T20:21:49Z enzuru: at the same time, at times i have to replace those objects with slightly modified versions, especially for function returns
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2017-04-08T20:21:54Z Grue`: you can use structs
2017-04-08T20:22:04Z Grue`: they're probably cheaper to remake
2017-04-08T20:22:31Z enzuru: hmm, yeah, i was considering that. then i lose some of the CLOS inheritance though.
2017-04-08T20:23:03Z enzuru: i feel like i'm thinking about the problem incorrectly. maybe i should *not* be using CLOS at all with an immutable functional approach?
2017-04-08T20:24:03Z Grue`: well, usually peeople who care about pure functional programming hate object oriented programming, so they wouldn't use objects at all
2017-04-08T20:24:51Z enzuru: yeah, it seems that way. i am trying to program a game engine functionally, so objects are still helpful for representing real-world items in the game
2017-04-08T20:25:03Z enzuru: i might need to abandon the purely functional approach idea i guess
2017-04-08T20:25:30Z axion: Are you aware of #lispgames and the upcoming game jam?
2017-04-08T20:25:35Z enzuru: nope.
2017-04-08T20:25:35Z axion: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode
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2017-04-08T20:26:30Z axion: Ah, well stop by. It's a fairly large community of knowledgable people that can probably give you some pointers.
2017-04-08T20:27:42Z Grue`: so you want to have an immutable player object that has its coordinates as properties, and every time the player moves you have to create a new object
2017-04-08T20:29:40Z dschoepe: enzuru: You could probably build something like Clojure's records and protocols on top of FSet and CLOS's methods though. that comes fairly close to having something like objects that are still immutable
2017-04-08T20:30:12Z enzuru: Grue`: exactly
2017-04-08T20:30:23Z enzuru: that seems to me the correct functional approach
2017-04-08T20:30:32Z phoe: it is
2017-04-08T20:30:46Z phoe: replication instead of mutation
2017-04-08T20:30:49Z enzuru: dschoepe: yeah everything points to Clojure doing this the right way. i'll look into how Clojure does it
2017-04-08T20:31:52Z enzuru: My inclination is just to abandon the pure functional approach from within a game though. CLOS adds more to my programming than a pure functional approach will, I think.
2017-04-08T20:31:58Z enzuru: (at least for a game)
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2017-04-08T20:47:09Z doby: Hey folks! I'm having trouble with upgrading asdf (as per https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Replacing-your-implementation_0027s-ASDF) on mac with sbcl. Has anyone had experience with this?
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2017-04-08T20:49:07Z |3b| would suggest describing an actual problem, since even people who haven't experienced it might know how to fix it
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2017-04-08T20:50:57Z doby: The problem is that the upgrade command, sudo tools/asdf-tools install-asdf sbcl, isn't working. It generates the error "ailed to find the TRUENAME of /Users/doby162/Downloads/asdf-3.2.1/build/asdf.lisp"
2017-04-08T20:51:23Z phoe: I think I overdosed the specification for now
2017-04-08T20:51:30Z phoe: and I might need a month or two of a break.
2017-04-08T20:51:38Z phoe: like, I need to write some actual Lisp code for a change.
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2017-04-08T20:51:50Z |3b|: does that file exist?
2017-04-08T20:51:51Z mm_: hi
2017-04-08T20:51:56Z phoe: mm_: hey
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2017-04-08T20:52:24Z doby: No, the build folder only contains more folders
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2017-04-08T20:52:37Z doby: Users/doby162/Downloads/asdf-3.2.1/build/fasls/sbcl-1.1.6.0-3c5581a-macosx-x86/root/Users/doby162/Downloads/asdf-3.2.1/build/
2017-04-08T20:52:52Z doby: I get that if I keep tabbing out
2017-04-08T20:56:09Z |3b|: did you run make first?
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2017-04-08T20:57:12Z |3b|: also, that is a pretty old sbcl, i would probably upgrade that before asdf (particularly since it probably has a newer asdf as well)
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2017-04-08T20:58:42Z doby: I tried running make, trying again to make sure I didn't screw something up. 1.1.6 is up to date on mac, correct? Should I compile from source?
2017-04-08T20:58:54Z |3b|: looks like you would have to build it yourself though, but that is usually pretty easy if you have compiler and related tools
2017-04-08T20:59:12Z |3b|: 1.1.6 is just the most recent binary anyone has built for that combination of os/cpu
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2017-04-08T21:00:06Z doby: Ok. What compiler and tools would you suggest for compiling from source?
2017-04-08T21:00:09Z |3b|: (which tend to be old on unpopular platforms since the devs usually build what they use, and even when building more they can only build for what they have access to)
2017-04-08T21:00:37Z doby: I understand, I am usually on linux, just not today
2017-04-08T21:00:41Z |3b|: you need a CL implementation (the old sbcl binary is usually a good choice) and c compiler
2017-04-08T21:00:58Z |3b|: and things like bash, make, etc
2017-04-08T21:01:28Z |3b| isn't sure exactly, since i usually end up having it by the time i want to build sbcl anyway
2017-04-08T21:01:47Z |3b|: or install as it fails and then promptly forget :)
2017-04-08T21:01:57Z doby: Well I have those. Thanks, I guess I'll go try to build sbcl!
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2017-04-08T21:02:55Z |3b|: also has the advantage that you can change configuration when you build it, for example i usually set the default heap to something close to the amount of ram in the system i'm using it on
2017-04-08T21:04:42Z Grue`: also if you build your own sbcl, M-. in SLIME starts working even for built-in functions
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2017-04-08T21:05:45Z doby: Do I need to uninstall the existing sbcl first?
2017-04-08T21:05:54Z |3b|: no, you need it to build new one
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2017-04-08T21:06:02Z doby: Right
2017-04-08T21:07:06Z |3b|: generally just need to get source, then run make.sh in the dir with source
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2017-04-08T21:09:05Z |3b|: and pass it parameters for any configuration you want to change, i use --fancy, which enables most of the things you would want but that aren't in the default config for whatever reason
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2017-04-08T21:10:44Z |3b|: if it finishes, you can use run-sbcl.sh to try out the newly built sbcl before uninstalling old one, and install.sh to install it
2017-04-08T21:11:20Z doby: Thanks! Just kicked it off with --fancy
2017-04-08T21:11:33Z doby: It certainly does have some terminal output
2017-04-08T21:12:19Z thijso: What exactly does the --fancy do? I usually build with only --with-sb-thread --with-sb-core-compression --with-sb-xref-for-internals
2017-04-08T21:13:18Z |3b|: depends on platform and stability of any new features
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2017-04-08T21:14:14Z thijso: is it documented somewhere?
2017-04-08T21:15:21Z thijso: Hmm... INSTALL says "Enables all supported feature enhancements."
2017-04-08T21:15:39Z thijso: Which I'm not sure I would want.
2017-04-08T21:17:08Z |3b|: yeah, specifying them manually is a reasonable alternative
2017-04-08T21:17:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: I usually build with --fancy and haven't had any problems
2017-04-08T21:17:28Z |3b| thinks you can look in make-config.sh to see what it is
2017-04-08T21:17:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: it's easier than trying to remember which command line options to use every time
2017-04-08T21:17:52Z doby: Nice, that worked. Honestly just as easy as installing that out of date binary
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2017-04-08T21:19:25Z thijso: fiddlerwoaroof: I've started always just creating README files for myself that include the exact command lines I use to install something or customize something...
2017-04-08T21:20:00Z |3b| mostly just uses .bash_history for that, not a very robust solution though :p
2017-04-08T21:20:43Z |3b|: (though i also have a file of random commands that i have to look up every time anyway)
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2017-04-08T21:22:17Z thijso: Yeah, bash_history and file of random commands is familiar (file called zzzzzzzzzzzzz ;))
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2017-04-08T21:23:08Z thijso: I had to wrestle bash into keeping all histories accross terminals and logins and screens first, though...
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2017-04-08T21:25:34Z doby: Lol, can someone past me some of the contents of their system-index.txt from quicklisp's local-projects folder? Mine got nuked and I'm not sure what for format for the data is supposed to be
2017-04-08T21:26:04Z |3b|: ql should rebuild it
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2017-04-08T21:26:23Z |3b|: try (ql:register-local-projects)
2017-04-08T21:27:27Z |3b|: just a list of .asd files with path though, 1 per line
2017-04-08T21:28:35Z doby: Nice, thanks
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2017-04-08T23:12:34Z lispisfun: can I specify what package read interns symbols into
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2017-04-08T23:19:16Z _death: sure.. for example by qualifying the symbol
2017-04-08T23:19:49Z dschoepe: by default it should use *package*, which can be changed using in-package
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2017-04-08T23:57:30Z jasom: lispisfun: if you're calling "read" at runtime, just bind *package* around the call to read
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2017-04-08T23:58:08Z jasom: e.g. (let ((*package* (find-package 'foo))) (read))
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2017-04-08T23:58:32Z jasom: lispisfun: if you want to change the current package in a source file, use in-package
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2017-04-09T04:02:31Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-09T04:03:18Z procluevious: morning beach
2017-04-09T04:04:07Z nyef: G'morning beach.
2017-04-09T04:05:11Z procluevious: morning nyef
2017-04-09T04:05:56Z beach: procluevious: Why the nick change?
2017-04-09T04:06:55Z procluevious: no idea, bad dream or so....
2017-04-09T04:06:57Z procluevious: lol
2017-04-09T04:07:38Z nyef: ... too many trans-fats? (-:
2017-04-09T04:07:40Z procluevious: or an unconscious decision.....
2017-04-09T04:08:06Z procluevious: i don't eat trans-fats....
2017-04-09T04:08:14Z procluevious: not on purpose anyway.....
2017-04-09T04:09:52Z nyef: (That was a joke on "oleomargarine" historically having trans-fats.)
2017-04-09T04:10:18Z beach completely missed that.
2017-04-09T04:10:36Z procluevious: so you are the margarine type
2017-04-09T04:10:38Z procluevious: hmm
2017-04-09T04:11:13Z procluevious: i'm the butter type
2017-04-09T04:11:18Z procluevious: lol
2017-04-09T04:12:14Z nyef: Yeah, I tend to use unsalted sweet cream butter for when I need butter... Typically for frying something or in hot buttered rum.
2017-04-09T04:12:49Z procluevious: fresh butter is the best.....
2017-04-09T04:13:55Z procluevious: my grandma shook milk until butter would built up on the surface.....and then she would spoon it out in small amounts or use a net or so....
2017-04-09T04:14:29Z procluevious: some parts were salted for long-term use....the rest was kept for breakfast purposes.....
2017-04-09T04:14:33Z nyef: I don't go through dairy products anywhere near fast enough for that to make sense.
2017-04-09T04:15:00Z beach: [Back on topic, sorry] Bike wrote a (partial?) implementation of the interface between Cleavir and a host implementation (SBCL).  This would be the first step to using Cleavir in Second Climacs so that I can do things like compute indentation.
2017-04-09T04:15:05Z nyef: Well, not milk or butter, at least. Cheese doesn't tend to last long...
2017-04-09T04:15:16Z beach: ... but I haven't had time to test it yet.
2017-04-09T04:15:37Z procluevious: it was fresh-milk out of the udder of the cows....she did milk them all herself....it was cooked for a short time until it would almost flow out of the container and then let cool down for a while and then shook....
2017-04-09T04:15:53Z procluevious: all awfull
2017-04-09T04:16:09Z procluevious: cheese she made too.....
2017-04-09T04:16:42Z procluevious: tho she had to use some enzymes either from the store or from some older/earlier alliquots.....
2017-04-09T04:17:03Z procluevious: kept in the refrigerator....
2017-04-09T04:17:42Z nyef: Okay, this is probably enough about dairy product production for now.
2017-04-09T04:17:53Z procluevious: jep
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2017-04-09T04:20:00Z beach: And, I am trying to figure out how to organize the logic of the incremental Common Lisp parser in Second Climacs.  The issue here is END-OF-FILE.  I want an END-OF-FILE in the middle of an expression to create a special eof parse result.  But I don't want that when the parser is simply at the end of the buffer.
2017-04-09T04:21:05Z procluevious: erm
2017-04-09T04:21:09Z procluevious: then you have to count
2017-04-09T04:21:31Z nyef: ... Yeah, I don't know enough about how your parser is structured to be able to advise there.
2017-04-09T04:21:34Z procluevious: instances of EOF
2017-04-09T04:21:51Z beach: I tried testing for EOF before calling the top-level parser, but that does not necessarily work, because when READ encounters a reader macro that generates no value, it discards it and starts again, and at that point, I don't know the nesting depth.
2017-04-09T04:22:19Z beach: So, I can very well have a top-level comment at the end of the buffer, for instance.
2017-04-09T04:22:39Z beach: Then, I am in the middle of a read when the EOF is encountered.
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2017-04-09T04:22:51Z beach: So I pretty much have to signal EOF.
2017-04-09T04:23:30Z beach: But that situation is "normal" so I don't want any special parse result to be returned.
2017-04-09T04:24:05Z procluevious: i don't get it
2017-04-09T04:24:17Z procluevious: you mean a literal EOF vs. a true EOF ?
2017-04-09T04:24:37Z beach: By EOF, I mean the end of the editor buffer.  No more characters exist.
2017-04-09T04:24:59Z procluevious: so how can you have more than 1 in a file then ?
2017-04-09T04:25:14Z beach: I can't.
2017-04-09T04:25:28Z beach: But I can have the following situation: (a b (c d
2017-04-09T04:25:44Z beach: Then I encounter EOF in the middle of reading the list (c d
2017-04-09T04:26:20Z beach: It would not be polite to just tell the user there is a problem.
2017-04-09T04:26:26Z procluevious: (a b (c d <- EOF
2017-04-09T04:26:28Z procluevious: ok
2017-04-09T04:26:29Z beach: I want to highlight the two parentheses.
2017-04-09T04:26:58Z beach: So I create a special EOF parse result.  In this case two.  One nested inside the other.
2017-04-09T04:27:00Z procluevious: erm, no semantically you don't know where the end is
2017-04-09T04:27:09Z procluevious: it could be (c d ......)
2017-04-09T04:27:32Z beach: Yes, I just call the normal reader macro for ( and it sees EOF.
2017-04-09T04:27:44Z beach: So I signal end-of-file.
2017-04-09T04:28:04Z procluevious: when you tell it should be (c d) just for the parser not to signal EOF....
2017-04-09T04:28:11Z procluevious: dunno if that makes sense.....
2017-04-09T04:28:26Z beach: This creates the following: [eof a b [eof c d]] which is good.
2017-04-09T04:28:56Z procluevious: ah
2017-04-09T04:29:11Z beach: But that logic also creates an extraneous EOF parse result when the reader is called again at the end of the file.
2017-04-09T04:29:31Z beach: It is not a big deal, but I have to figure out how to get rid of it.
2017-04-09T04:29:36Z nyef: ... but at that point you haven't read anything other than whitespace, right?
2017-04-09T04:29:55Z beach: At what point?
2017-04-09T04:30:04Z procluevious: eof is literal there
2017-04-09T04:30:14Z nyef: At the end of the file when there's no unbalanced parens.
2017-04-09T04:30:19Z procluevious: and it's wrong too
2017-04-09T04:30:47Z procluevious: [a b [c d eof]] <- that should be created.....
2017-04-09T04:31:33Z beach: procluevious: No, by [eof a b [eof c d]] I mean an instance of EOF-PARSE-RESULT that has three children, namely A, B and another EOF-PARSE-RESULT...
2017-04-09T04:32:10Z beach: nyef: Correct.  At that point, I call the reader again, and it signals EOF, which I handle and create an EOF parse result.  And that is wrong.
2017-04-09T04:32:38Z beach: procluevious: The parser always returns a tree of parse results.
2017-04-09T04:32:44Z procluevious: ah
2017-04-09T04:33:02Z procluevious: and why is it backwards ?
2017-04-09T04:33:16Z procluevious: [a b [c d eof] eof] ?
2017-04-09T04:33:44Z beach: If I did it that way, I would not know what opening parenthesis to highlight.
2017-04-09T04:33:46Z nyef: Can you not check to see if the EOF-PARSE-RESULT wouldn't have children, and use that as an indicator to not create the EOF-PARSE-RESULT in the first place?
2017-04-09T04:34:11Z beach: In this picture: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.png The first ( is highlighted to indicate that EOF was reached when this form was read.
2017-04-09T04:34:23Z beach: nyef: I considered that.
2017-04-09T04:34:40Z beach: But then I would miss ([EOF]
2017-04-09T04:34:51Z nyef: Ah.
2017-04-09T04:35:17Z nyef: Dare I ask what happens with #| ?
2017-04-09T04:35:44Z beach: I don't think I know that yet.
2017-04-09T04:36:04Z nyef: ... You're using the host #\( reader-macro, and not your own?
2017-04-09T04:36:10Z beach: Host.
2017-04-09T04:36:13Z beach: That's the point.
2017-04-09T04:36:23Z beach: No changes to the user reader macros.
2017-04-09T04:36:29Z beach: That way I can handle everything.
2017-04-09T04:36:37Z nyef: ... And the host READ?
2017-04-09T04:36:43Z nyef: Hrm.
2017-04-09T04:36:59Z beach: No, not the host READ.
2017-04-09T04:37:13Z nyef: Ahh. So you do the lookup in the readtable yourself?
2017-04-09T04:37:17Z beach: Well, actually, not the host reader macros.  Sorry.
2017-04-09T04:37:23Z beach: But something equivalent.
2017-04-09T04:37:43Z beach: They don't use any modified mechanism.
2017-04-09T04:38:13Z nyef: So, hook the #\( reader macro to bind some state saying "recursive invocation" and then call the original #\( reader macro?
2017-04-09T04:38:14Z beach: Right now I am using the SICL reader.  I just altered the top-level READ.
2017-04-09T04:38:37Z beach: That is already supposed to happen.
2017-04-09T04:38:43Z beach: READ has a recursive-p.
2017-04-09T04:38:56Z beach: Reader macros are supposed to supply true for it.
2017-04-09T04:39:15Z nyef: Do you have access to it as part of your EOF-ERROR, or do you need a more accessible copy?
2017-04-09T04:39:52Z beach: I have access to it.  I didn't consider using it, but that's probably a very good idea.
2017-04-09T04:39:54Z nyef: If you're in a recursive read, you need the special EOF-PARSE-RESULT, and otherwise not, right?
2017-04-09T04:39:56Z procluevious: recursive-p has it's own conditions
2017-04-09T04:40:06Z beach: nyef: Sounds right.
2017-04-09T04:40:25Z beach: procluevious: What are they?
2017-04-09T04:44:33Z beach: nyef: So what I ultimately want to do is to use the host READ function, but it might require some modifications to it.  For example, I might have to turn it into a generic function so that I can specialize on the stream type that I use for Second Climacs buffers.
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2017-04-09T04:44:56Z beach: And of course, it needs to check the cache before actually reading things.
2017-04-09T04:46:30Z beach: Right now, it is more urgent to get the functionality going.  Even if I don't use the native READ, it is still better than what current editors can do.
2017-04-09T04:46:43Z nyef: I seem to recall that CLWEB uses some number of stream games and whatnot for various parsing magic, but I don't remember what the particular games are.
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2017-04-09T04:47:05Z beach: Does it use READ?
2017-04-09T04:47:55Z nyef: I believe so?
2017-04-09T04:48:42Z beach: I will check it out once I am ready to try to use the host READ.
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2017-04-09T04:56:17Z nyef: Yeah, this looks like it's doing a lot of work to get the syntactic data that it needs out of a standard reader.
2017-04-09T04:57:37Z beach: Yes, less trivial than I initially thought.
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2017-04-09T04:58:49Z beach: But, like I said, even with a custom reader, it is still better than what we currently have.
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2017-04-09T08:06:32Z kami: Good morning.
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2017-04-09T09:29:07Z lexicall_: hi, i'm working on some precise calculations. i want to ask that is there a way to alter the precision of numbers in SBCL?
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2017-04-09T09:32:58Z White_Flame: of floating point numbers?  you can define the default read format to doubles
2017-04-09T09:33:13Z White_Flame: or, if you're not talking about floating point, you can use rationals for everything, which will be exact
2017-04-09T09:33:15Z jackdaniel: integers have arbitrary precision (bignums). Floats are short, single, double and long.
2017-04-09T09:33:23Z jackdaniel: clisp has arbitrary precision floats afair
2017-04-09T09:33:28Z jackdaniel: as extension
2017-04-09T09:34:35Z lexicall_: yeah it's float numbers but can be pretty small.
2017-04-09T09:34:43Z jackdaniel: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/num-concepts.html#float-lim
2017-04-09T09:34:51Z White_Flame: do double-floats suffice or no?
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2017-04-09T09:35:21Z White_Flame: (I think long and double floats are equivalent in sbcl x86/x64)
2017-04-09T09:35:39Z lexicall_: White_Flame: i'm not sure. i'm afraid the normal float cannot be so precise.
2017-04-09T09:36:04Z White_Flame: what precision do you need?
2017-04-09T09:36:30Z lexicall_: around 1e^-20 i guess.
2017-04-09T09:37:15Z White_Flame: you need something like 1 + 1e-20 to maintain that small portion?
2017-04-09T09:37:24Z White_Flame: a number isn't a precision
2017-04-09T09:37:49Z lexicall_:  it's NLP problem and I need to maintain the probabilities, which is generally small.
2017-04-09T09:38:06Z White_Flame: how many bits or digits of precision do you need?
2017-04-09T09:38:31Z White_Flame: 1e-20 is perfectly representable in sbcl single floats on x64
2017-04-09T09:39:05Z lexicall_: White_Flame: then I guess I have no problem now . i may just go for it.
2017-04-09T09:39:30Z White_Flame: I think you might need to learn a bit more about the nature of floating point numbers to establish more context for your questions
2017-04-09T09:39:54Z White_Flame: that's not lisp-specific
2017-04-09T09:40:14Z lexicall_: ok, thanks for your anwser.
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2017-04-09T09:41:38Z Mon_Ouie: lexicall_: Have you considered using the logarithms of probabilities instead of the probabilities themselves? That's a common approach to mitigate such precision problems, if you're just multiplying/dividing them
2017-04-09T09:42:36Z lexicall_: Mon_Ouie: that's a good point! i'll try :)
2017-04-09T09:44:20Z White_Flame: btw, here's a basic table of the ranges of floating point numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point#Basic_and_interchange_formats
2017-04-09T09:44:31Z White_Flame: sbcl on x86 will have single & double precision out of that table
2017-04-09T09:47:33Z lexicall_: White_Flame: read the table. I guess Mon_Ouie's approach is better for my problem. it's both cost-saving and efficiency, but thanks for your knowledge.
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2017-04-09T09:48:22Z White_Flame: but again, if your probabilities are all ratios of integers, then rationals will keep them exact
2017-04-09T09:48:53Z White_Flame: depends on how your values are sourced
2017-04-09T09:50:34Z lexicall_: got it :)
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2017-04-09T09:54:54Z pjb: lexicall_: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html   and   What Every Programmer Should Know About Floating-Point Arithmetic http://floating-point-gui.de/
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2017-04-09T09:57:27Z lexicall_: pjb: I prefer the blue pill XD
2017-04-09T09:57:57Z lexicall_: but nice article anyway
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2017-04-09T10:24:12Z Grue`: math saves the day once again. and people say calculus is useless
2017-04-09T10:29:41Z xantoz: 3~
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2017-04-09T10:31:41Z dim: http://floating-point-gui.de/ is very nice, except for the SQL parts where I totally disagree on the storing vs displaying
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2017-04-09T10:32:15Z dim: a database system is not meant to store “things”, we don't need anything fancy for that. anyway.
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2017-04-09T10:39:20Z nufsipsil: so I'm having to call (in-package :package) inside my hunchentoot easy handler in order that read interns into the right package
2017-04-09T10:39:57Z pjb: dim: indeed, the statement misses semantic rounding (eg. rounding of monetary amounts).
2017-04-09T10:40:33Z pjb: nufsipsil: it's better to use (let ((*package* (load-time-value (find-package :package)))) …) for read-time binding of *package*.
2017-04-09T10:40:50Z nufsipsil: pjb: excellent thanks
2017-04-09T10:40:56Z pjb: nufsipsil: you could define a macro named with-package to expand to that. Notice the macro with-standard-io-syntax.
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2017-04-09T12:08:17Z Grue`: the fact that you're interning news symbols inside of a hunchentoot handler is a red flag in and of itself
2017-04-09T12:08:25Z Grue`: *new symbols
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2017-04-09T12:39:45Z malice: Hi! Is calling a generic function slower than calling an ordinary function?
2017-04-09T12:40:08Z malice: I want to define a recursive generic function. Should I use labels instead and call this function there?
2017-04-09T12:45:12Z attila_lendvai: malice: it's slower, but somehow I doubt you should care about that at this point. also note that the two are not the same semantically, because calling a generic dispatches at each recursion
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2017-04-09T12:46:06Z malice: I am also aware of that and was wondering if I should like that or not
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2017-04-09T12:47:06Z Grue`: nobody here but you knows what you actually want it to do
2017-04-09T12:48:54Z malice: I'm not sure if I know what I want it to do yet :)
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2017-04-09T12:54:45Z Jonsky: So I found out that I can put (handler-bind ..) inside (restart-case ...). And I can also wrap it another way: put (restart-case ...) inside (handler-bind ...). Which one is more preferable? Or it doesn't matter anyway?
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2017-04-09T12:58:14Z Bicyclidine: i guess restart-case in handler-bind so that the restarts are associated with conditions (maybe).
2017-04-09T13:03:16Z Jonsky: Thanks.
2017-04-09T13:09:00Z froggey: hello #lisp
2017-04-09T13:09:24Z froggey: Mezzano Demo 3 is out now. Featuring video playback (thanks to varjag), better window management, and more
2017-04-09T13:09:30Z froggey: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/releases/tag/demo3
2017-04-09T13:10:06Z phoe: froggey: !!!
2017-04-09T13:10:30Z phoe: woah,!
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2017-04-09T13:13:05Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/64czzu/mezzano_demo_3_is_out_featuring_video_playback/
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2017-04-09T13:32:48Z phoe: oh, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14072121
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2017-04-09T13:50:41Z shaftoe: anyone had ssl features "not available on this platform" when using drakma?
2017-04-09T13:51:08Z shaftoe: WARNING:
2017-04-09T13:51:11Z shaftoe:    :verify, :max-depth, :ca-file and :ca-directory arguments not available on this platform
2017-04-09T13:51:45Z phoe: shaftoe: https://github.com/edicl/drakma/blob/c81a0f2be99e72c2cf7ae692622b0b6413891ab4/util.lisp#L326
2017-04-09T13:52:05Z shaftoe: ive been looking at the same piece of code
2017-04-09T13:52:09Z shaftoe: on github
2017-04-09T13:52:37Z shaftoe: also at this from documentation page: The certificate, key, certificate-password, verify, max-depth, ca-file and ca-directory parameters are ignored for non-SSL requests. They are also ignored on LispWorks.
2017-04-09T13:52:46Z shaftoe: im not on lispworks
2017-04-09T13:52:53Z shaftoe: and i'm using an ssl request
2017-04-09T13:53:30Z shaftoe: sbcl with all the bells and whistles, linux x64
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2017-04-09T13:54:36Z shaftoe: maybe i'll try using drakma from git clone vs quicklisp
2017-04-09T13:55:54Z phoe: shaftoe: and if that doesn't work, I think you should file a GitHub issue
2017-04-09T13:57:04Z shaftoe: hah
2017-04-09T13:57:06Z shaftoe: hahah
2017-04-09T13:57:10Z shaftoe: the git clone worked
2017-04-09T13:57:25Z shaftoe: something borked with the quicklisp package for drakma
2017-04-09T13:57:30Z phoe: XachX: ^
2017-04-09T13:57:36Z shaftoe likes when troubleshooting results in a fix
2017-04-09T13:58:58Z shaftoe: XachX: i found some issue with drakma http-request with :ca-file keyword using the quicklisp library. The master version from github doesn't have the same problem
2017-04-09T14:03:09Z pjb: malice: the question is whether your recursive calls pass parameters of different classes?
2017-04-09T14:03:40Z pjb: malice: if you keep the dispatching arguments in the same class, then you could do it wiht specialized functions.
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2017-04-09T14:07:59Z procluevious: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343902
2017-04-09T14:08:01Z procluevious: hahahaha
2017-04-09T14:08:19Z phoe: procluevious: wut
2017-04-09T14:08:25Z phoe: this doesn't look like Lisp
2017-04-09T14:08:41Z pjb: procluevious: yes, it's out of topic.  Try it in #lispcafe!
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2017-04-09T14:54:02Z shaftoe: how can i redirect input into my lisp program... ie tail /var/log/syslog | ./lisp-program
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2017-04-09T14:54:21Z shaftoe: or rather, that's how, now how do i detect && read input within my program
2017-04-09T14:57:16Z nyef: shaftoe: Is it not *standard-input*?
2017-04-09T14:57:52Z Bicyclidine: i think they're saying they want to pipe in input and thereafter read input from a terminal?
2017-04-09T14:58:02Z nyef: Can you also not use interactive-stream-p if you need to know if it's a terminal or not?
2017-04-09T14:58:15Z nyef: Oh. So, also using *terminal-io* ?
2017-04-09T14:59:27Z shaftoe: let me try
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2017-04-09T15:01:16Z nyef: And... just checked, these are all common-lisp symbols, not implementation-specific features.
2017-04-09T15:01:45Z phoe: ^
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2017-04-09T15:23:51Z Xach: shaftoe: ok
2017-04-09T15:24:01Z Xach: shaftoe: i only use drakma releases, though.
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2017-04-09T15:32:34Z malice: Hi, is there a way to bind handler to an error that is just a string?
2017-04-09T15:32:38Z malice: e.g. (error "something")
2017-04-09T15:32:46Z malice: do I have to bind to just error?
2017-04-09T15:32:56Z phoe: malice: this is going to be a condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR, IIRC
2017-04-09T15:32:57Z malice: (it seems like binding to just error is kinda bad...)
2017-04-09T15:32:59Z Xach: malice: i have a trick that i sometimes use for that
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2017-04-09T15:33:11Z phoe: and you can check the string inside the handler
2017-04-09T15:33:20Z malice: Xach: I'm curious!
2017-04-09T15:33:25Z phoe: and if the string doesn't match something you want it to match, you can decline to handle the condition
2017-04-09T15:33:31Z phoe: and therefore pass the condition over to the next handler.
2017-04-09T15:33:41Z _death: the best fix is to use an actual condition object
2017-04-09T15:33:41Z Xach: malice: I make a satisfies type that does the hacky, horrible string search. then i handler bind on that type.
2017-04-09T15:33:44Z malice: phoe: yeah, it's not elegant though
2017-04-09T15:33:50Z Xach: I never do a string search in the error handler itself
2017-04-09T15:34:00Z phoe: malice: if you want to be elegant, then make a new condition type like _death said
2017-04-09T15:34:22Z Xach: Then, if it is "fixed" with a proper type I don't have to update in the error handler, just the type definition.
2017-04-09T15:34:39Z malice: yeah, I think I'll do that and define local condition
2017-04-09T15:34:41Z Xach: This is only to be used in emergencies
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2017-04-09T15:40:29Z malice: Okay, turns out I didn't have to use the hack I thought of. However, I'm a bit disappointed that you can't use local conditions with handler-bind/case
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2017-04-09T15:41:51Z Xach: what is a "local condition'?
2017-04-09T15:42:22Z malice: (let ((condition (make-instance 'condition))) (handler-bind (condition #|can't! condition is not evaluated |# (do-something))))
2017-04-09T15:43:32Z Xach: What would you do if you could?
2017-04-09T15:43:45Z Xach: (that code would work fine, since condition is of type condition)
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2017-04-09T15:45:17Z phoe: clhs make-instance
2017-04-09T15:45:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm
2017-04-09T15:45:26Z phoe: conditions are not CLOS objects
2017-04-09T15:45:30Z phoe: I mean
2017-04-09T15:45:35Z phoe: they are not of type standard-object
2017-04-09T15:45:51Z phoe: and therefore cannot be created with make-instance in conforming code
2017-04-09T15:46:27Z Xach: right - you would use make-condition.
2017-04-09T15:46:36Z Bicyclidine: the handler bind clause is supposed to trigger only if that exact condition is signaled?
2017-04-09T15:47:18Z malice: yes
2017-04-09T15:47:26Z malice: I wanted to trigger the condition only on this specific condition
2017-04-09T15:47:42Z malice: didn't know about CLOS objects. Too bad not everything is CLOS object in conforming CL. Works on sbcl, though
2017-04-09T15:47:46Z phoe: doesn't look like you are able to.
2017-04-09T15:47:52Z phoe: malice: yes, because SBCL uses CLOS internally to represent conditions
2017-04-09T15:47:56Z Bicyclidine: that's kind of weird
2017-04-09T15:47:57Z phoe: but no implementation is forced to
2017-04-09T15:48:06Z malice: phoe: make-condition creates condition of type type, not creates new type of condition
2017-04-09T15:48:09Z Bicyclidine: i mean, you'd have to pass the condition down into the function
2017-04-09T15:48:12Z malice: you use define-condition for that
2017-04-09T15:48:16Z malice: Bicyclidine: yes
2017-04-09T15:48:22Z malice: that's what I wanted to do
2017-04-09T15:48:23Z phoe: maleyes, I know.
2017-04-09T15:48:25Z Bicyclidine: in which case you can use throw or something instead
2017-04-09T15:48:41Z Bicyclidine: (let ((tag (gensym))) (catch tag (inner-function tag)))
2017-04-09T15:49:30Z Bicyclidine: make-condition and make-instance don't make new types either
2017-04-09T15:51:11Z malice: Yeah, but making instance of condition would create a new condition, though "locally"
2017-04-09T15:51:24Z malice: where define-condition creates new condition, but globally
2017-04-09T15:51:42Z malice: Maybe I don't understand something, but I think I had pretty clear idea about how it worked
2017-04-09T15:51:58Z _death: define-condition creates a condition type
2017-04-09T15:52:03Z malice: Bicyclidine: also, I didn't know of catch. Never really used it. Thanks.
2017-04-09T15:52:21Z malice: _death: yes, but the condition is then available in the current package, right?
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2017-04-09T15:52:38Z _death: your question doesn't make sense
2017-04-09T15:53:23Z phoe: malice: define-condition creates a condition and binds it globally.
2017-04-09T15:53:36Z phoe: Common Lisp does not offer portable local conditions.
2017-04-09T15:53:46Z _death: a condition object is created by make-condition or by passing the condition type name and initargs to error/signal
2017-04-09T15:54:11Z phoe: the best thing you could do is possibly create a new (temporary?) package and (define-condition temporary-package:some-condition ...)
2017-04-09T15:54:36Z phoe: but then again, why do you want to avoid define-condition?
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2017-04-09T15:55:56Z malice: I didn't want to make condition object. I wanted to make condition object, I wanted to make condition class object
2017-04-09T15:56:00Z malice: what phoe says
2017-04-09T15:56:30Z Bicyclidine: define-condition creates a condition type but not a condition object.
2017-04-09T15:56:36Z malice: phoe: because I wanted to create a condition that would only be used inside one function and not accessible anywhere else(it woul be handled there)
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2017-04-09T15:56:58Z malice: Yes. I wanted to create a condition type (I thought it was class).
2017-04-09T15:57:33Z malice: Kind of the same as with anonymous class. You can create an instance of anonymous class and then make instances of that class, without the class having the name and being visible anywhere else.
2017-04-09T15:57:49Z Bicyclidine: yeah, but it's pretty obscure to do that
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2017-04-09T15:58:35Z Bicyclidine: and since conditions are tied to control flow it's especially weird
2017-04-09T15:58:48Z Bicyclidine: i've never heard of someone wanting to create a condition before it's actually signaled
2017-04-09T15:58:59Z phoe: Bicyclidine: he's talking about two things
2017-04-09T15:59:09Z Bicyclidine: a lot of the advantage of conditions is you can put extra information in the slots about the specific problem, but you're losing that
2017-04-09T15:59:10Z phoe: he wants to create a local condition, not a local condition *object*
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2017-04-09T16:00:03Z phoe: a condition, as in, something he can create condition objects *from*
2017-04-09T16:00:18Z Bicyclidine: a condition type
2017-04-09T16:00:29Z phoe: oh yes
2017-04-09T16:00:33Z phoe: local condition type.
2017-04-09T16:00:42Z Bicyclidine: well, i don't get that either, another point of conditions is that they're dynamic, you signal something wherever and some alien picks it up
2017-04-09T16:00:51Z Bicyclidine: whereas a local condition type would be lexical
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2017-04-09T16:01:22Z Bicyclidine: which leads to the "pass the pre-made condition to the function that signals", which is still weird
2017-04-09T16:02:13Z Bicyclidine: it seems more like some odd control flow construct, which is why i suggested using catch instead
2017-04-09T16:02:29Z malice: It might be strange, but there might be some valid uses.
2017-04-09T16:02:38Z malice: Mine wasn't valid really, and I did that using other techniques
2017-04-09T16:02:44Z malice: And probably using throw and catch would be better.
2017-04-09T16:02:55Z malice: Anyway, I g2g, thanks for conversation!
2017-04-09T16:03:03Z Bicyclidine: good morrow
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2017-04-09T16:08:41Z afidegnum: hi, good evening all,
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2017-04-09T16:12:51Z phoe: hey afidegnum
2017-04-09T16:15:38Z afidegnum: phoe: hi
2017-04-09T16:15:55Z afidegnum: how are you enjoying the sunday ?
2017-04-09T16:18:14Z phoe: afidegnum: cleaning the room, which is a tedious task
2017-04-09T16:18:15Z phoe: you?
2017-04-09T16:19:14Z afidegnum: i finished clearning the room 8 hours ago
2017-04-09T16:19:27Z phoe: lucky you
2017-04-09T16:19:50Z afidegnum: i m just pondering about the documentation initiative started,
2017-04-09T16:20:05Z phoe: when I call (room) then I get a message stating "you should finally do your garbage collection, phoe"
2017-04-09T16:20:29Z afidegnum: :)
2017-04-09T16:23:58Z beach: phoe: Please avoid the term "CLOS object".  It has no formal definition.  Most reasonable definitions would be equivalent to "any object".
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2017-04-09T16:24:33Z phoe: beach: yes, I corrected myself immediately. :P
2017-04-09T16:24:44Z phoe: afidegnum: which documentation initiative?
2017-04-09T16:24:50Z beach: Oh, missed that.  Sorry, then.
2017-04-09T16:25:06Z phoe: 17:45 < phoe> conditions are not CLOS objects
2017-04-09T16:25:06Z phoe: 17:45 < phoe> I mean
2017-04-09T16:25:07Z phoe: 17:45 < phoe> they are not of type standard-object
2017-04-09T16:25:17Z beach: phoe: Yes, indeed.  Good!
2017-04-09T16:25:22Z phoe: well, I should have said it even better
2017-04-09T16:25:32Z phoe: they are not standard-objects
2017-04-09T16:25:33Z phoe: or, uh
2017-04-09T16:25:38Z phoe: proper subtype of standard-object
2017-04-09T16:25:45Z phoe: whatever is the formal term of that
2017-04-09T16:25:47Z beach: yes, either of those will do.
2017-04-09T16:25:53Z phoe: beach: thanks.
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2017-04-09T16:28:18Z afidegnum: phoe: i was trying to work on a consolidated documetation for Cl libraries, and tutorials,
2017-04-09T16:28:49Z phoe: afidegnum: tell me more, I'm curious now
2017-04-09T16:28:58Z afidegnum: even though there are some existing one, i looking to provide updated ones, which will involve a massive participation
2017-04-09T16:29:02Z phoe: since it sounds pretty parallel to that I'm trying to achieve with the UltraSpec
2017-04-09T16:29:21Z afidegnum: oh, really!
2017-04-09T16:30:20Z afidegnum: well i started with some context oriented documentation, i haven't done much yet, i am trying to find out from others how should the documentation platform be presented, and created a git repo
2017-04-09T16:30:37Z afidegnum: which will later be migrated to it's website once there is an opportunity
2017-04-09T16:30:58Z phoe: afidegnum: phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
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2017-04-09T16:34:38Z phoe: woops
2017-04-09T16:34:43Z phoe: afidegnum: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-04-09T16:37:18Z afidegnum: phoe: mine is https://github.com/afidegnum/cl_docs-consolidate
2017-04-09T16:37:46Z afidegnum: with sub trees focusing on various domains
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2017-04-09T16:38:37Z afidegnum: phoe: wow, you've really done a huge work
2017-04-09T16:38:58Z afidegnum: beach: hi
2017-04-09T16:40:52Z afidegnum: it's been a while hearing from you
2017-04-09T16:40:52Z afidegnum: phoe: how long did it take to have all this?
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2017-04-09T16:42:03Z afidegnum: phoe: https://github.com/afidegnum/cl_docs-consolidate/branches
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2017-04-09T16:54:45Z phoe: afidegnum: about two months of really intensive work.
2017-04-09T16:54:50Z phoe: summing it all up.
2017-04-09T16:55:24Z phoe: and it seems that our projects are parallel
2017-04-09T16:55:41Z phoe: mine focuses on editing the specification and docs for important language extensions and libraries
2017-04-09T16:55:55Z phoe: and yours seems much more focused on things like https://github.com/afidegnum/cl_docs-consolidate/blob/afidegnum-patch-2-1/UserInterface.md
2017-04-09T16:56:02Z afidegnum: yes
2017-04-09T16:56:40Z afidegnum: i m trying to bend mine on context related docs possible libraries that can do the job
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2017-04-09T16:56:49Z phoe: very well.
2017-04-09T16:57:59Z afidegnum: but i would like it to be more robust, and recent
2017-04-09T16:58:37Z phoe: afidegnum: I will certainly want to join forces at some point
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2017-04-09T16:59:28Z afidegnum: so i have outlined 4 points, out of the vast categories,
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2017-04-09T16:59:59Z afidegnum: i believe libraries owners and maintainers could also add their input
2017-04-09T17:01:27Z phoe: yes, sure thing
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2017-04-09T17:02:00Z afidegnum: so what do you think of the repo? what do you suggest to be done?
2017-04-09T17:02:17Z afidegnum: how would you want it structured?
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2017-04-09T17:02:55Z phoe: I need to run in a few minutes - I will be able to answer this, just not now
2017-04-09T17:03:02Z phoe: Please post these questions at https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues
2017-04-09T17:03:07Z phoe: I will be able to answer it there when I come back.
2017-04-09T17:03:43Z lispnik: In Java, I can do something like "this(foo, 42)" to initialize the super-class. Is there some analog of that in CLOS?
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2017-04-09T17:06:10Z phoe: lispnik: yes, CALL-NEXT-METHOD inside INITIALIZE-INSTANCE
2017-04-09T17:06:38Z phoe: lispnik: what is your constructor like?
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2017-04-09T17:11:12Z phoe: I need to run now - but I'm sure that PCL has some of that inside its chapter on object reorientation
2017-04-09T17:11:15Z phoe: mindCrime: tell lispnik about pcl
2017-04-09T17:11:22Z phoe: ...uh sorry mindCrime
2017-04-09T17:11:31Z phoe: minion: tell lispnik about pcl
2017-04-09T17:11:31Z minion: lispnik: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-04-09T17:11:47Z lispnik: Thanks phoe
2017-04-09T17:11:55Z nyef: ... Remember when "PCL" stood for "Portable Common LOOPS"?
2017-04-09T17:12:27Z phoe: lispnik: tl;dr version, when you (defmethod initialize-instance :after ...) for class A and for class B which is a subclass of A
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2017-04-09T17:12:47Z phoe: then (call-next-method) inside B's DEFMETHOD should land you inside the DEFMETHOD for class A
2017-04-09T17:13:05Z phoe: you can write some trivial code to make sure I'm not wrong
2017-04-09T17:13:55Z phoe: like (defclass a () ()) (defclass b (a) ()) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj a)) (print "in a")) (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((obj b)) (print "in b") (call-next-method))
2017-04-09T17:14:06Z phoe: this is written by hand but should illustrate it
2017-04-09T17:14:09Z phoe: then (make-instance 'b)
2017-04-09T17:14:35Z phoe: and ignore compiler warnings for unused vars, obviously we don't use OBJ in both methods
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2017-04-09T17:15:38Z phoe afk
2017-04-09T17:17:35Z afidegnum: phoe: i droped an issue on your git,
2017-04-09T17:17:52Z phoe: afidegnum: thank yopu!
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2017-04-09T17:29:35Z afidegnum: what is the current stable web framework one can use for quick applications?
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2017-04-09T17:42:09Z whoman: radiance
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2017-04-09T18:17:23Z shrdlu68: Hello lispers!
2017-04-09T18:17:41Z akkad: meh
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2017-04-09T18:26:38Z whoman: hi!
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2017-04-09T18:36:58Z phoe: hello
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2017-04-09T18:55:17Z gigamonkey:  Hmmm. Are there any implementations anyone knows of where a backquoted expression doesn't always expand into a list start with the same symbol?
2017-04-09T18:55:45Z gigamonkey: E.g. in SBCL (car '`()) => SB-INT:QUASIQUOTE
2017-04-09T18:56:08Z gigamonkey: As does (car '`foo) and (car '`(foo)).
2017-04-09T18:56:49Z gigamonkey: So can I rely (in practice, obviously the spec doesn't say) on a backquoted form always starting with SB-INT:QUASIQUOTE?
2017-04-09T18:56:56Z nyef: gigamonkey: I don't know of any, but at the same time I wouldn't want to presume that there aren't.
2017-04-09T18:57:04Z gigamonkey: Yeah. Story of going outside the spec.
2017-04-09T18:57:34Z nyef: Consider the bug reports that SBCL *still* occasionally gets over using non-cons structure for quasiquote.
2017-04-09T18:58:40Z gigamonkey: That often strikes me as one of the must unfortunate gaps in the spec insofar as it really seems unlikely to have unduly contrained implementors to require the reader macros to expand to canonical symbols.
2017-04-09T19:00:20Z gigamonkey: Though I'm not an implementor so what do I know.
2017-04-09T19:00:55Z nyef: The only way to get that through committee would be to supply a canonical implementation that is fully compatible with every wrinkle of every existing implementation.
2017-04-09T19:01:58Z nyef: Sortof like how the only way the condition system got through committee was that an example implementation was provided, with instructions on how to integrate it into existing systems.
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2017-04-09T19:03:08Z phoe: gigamonkey: SBCL, yes
2017-04-09T19:03:23Z phoe: gigamonkey: (describe (cadr '`,2)) tells me that the unquote is a structure-object
2017-04-09T19:04:18Z nyef: phoe: That wasn't actually the question. The question was "is it always a list form that starts with SB-INT:QUASIQUOTE as a function or macro name?"
2017-04-09T19:04:31Z phoe: oh
2017-04-09T19:04:50Z phoe: I have no idea actually
2017-04-09T19:05:15Z nyef: And "are there any implementations that *don't* use a similar fixed form for quasiquote?"
2017-04-09T19:05:45Z nyef: And, thinking about it, I can easily believe that there *are* implementations that don't use such a fixed form for quasiquote.
2017-04-09T19:05:52Z sjl: gigamonkey: ABCL will be a problem http://paste.stevelosh.com/58ea8605ea6c8300084360fc
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2017-04-09T19:06:28Z sjl: seems to optimize away the backq-list when it's not needed
2017-04-09T19:06:59Z nyef: Case in point, but not nearly as drastic a divergence as what I had in mind.
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2017-04-09T19:19:59Z paroneayea: is any more metadata stored by quicklisp other than the download url?
2017-04-09T19:20:13Z paroneayea: trying to figure out where quicklisp keeps its package definitions
2017-04-09T19:23:25Z paroneayea: oh wait
2017-04-09T19:23:25Z paroneayea: I see
2017-04-09T19:24:32Z whoman: ^_^
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2017-04-09T19:32:26Z gigamonkey: sjl: Thanks. I figured there had to be someone doing such a thing.
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2017-04-09T19:44:49Z nyef: gigamonkey: The other angle is that if an implementation doesn't care to do even the level of read-print consistency that ABCL does for quasiquote, it could "just" expand to the actual LIST / LIST* / whatever operations to implement the quasiquote semantics.
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2017-04-09T20:01:06Z sjl: CCL does that ^
2017-04-09T20:01:08Z sjl: '`(foo ,bar)
2017-04-09T20:01:10Z sjl: (LIST* 'FOO (LIST BAR))
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2017-04-09T20:12:54Z ghost566: hi
2017-04-09T20:14:12Z phoe: ghost566: hello
2017-04-09T20:20:15Z gigamonkey: nyef: right.
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2017-04-09T20:25:48Z flip214: in lparallel:make-kernel :bindings -- can I define to use the value of a special at the time of calling submit-task?
2017-04-09T20:26:05Z flip214: the examples I see are only for values at the make-kernel call time.
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2017-04-09T21:01:49Z ghost566: need
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2017-04-09T21:36:54Z mm_: hi
2017-04-09T21:38:43Z pjb: hi
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2017-04-10T00:37:39Z holycow: froggey: congrats on new release. this is amazing
2017-04-10T00:38:00Z phoe: ^
2017-04-10T00:39:29Z holycow: you have video and game support?
2017-04-10T00:39:30Z holycow: holy f
2017-04-10T00:39:42Z phoe: game?
2017-04-10T00:39:49Z phoe: what kinda game?
2017-04-10T00:39:50Z holycow: he included a copy of doom on it
2017-04-10T00:39:57Z holycow: it works,
2017-04-10T00:40:11Z holycow: he included a few video files.  THAT PLAY.
2017-04-10T00:40:11Z phoe: ...
2017-04-10T00:40:12Z holycow: lol
2017-04-10T00:40:13Z phoe: wat
2017-04-10T00:40:14Z phoe: what
2017-04-10T00:40:16Z phoe: WTF
2017-04-10T00:40:19Z phoe downloads
2017-04-10T00:40:21Z holycow: yeah.
2017-04-10T00:40:25Z phoe: I wanted to check this out another day
2017-04-10T00:40:35Z phoe: but fuck I need to check it out now.
2017-04-10T00:40:44Z phoe: and record it.
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2017-04-10T00:40:47Z phoe: and put it on YouTube.
2017-04-10T00:41:14Z holycow: give it a bunch of ram, give the video a bunch of ram and enable video accelration. i don't believe it uses video accelration but it runs with that enabled.
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2017-04-10T00:43:19Z holycwo-mezzano: and irc works
2017-04-10T00:43:44Z phoe: holycwo-mezzano: yes, this worked with release 2
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2017-04-10T00:47:22Z phoe: O_O
2017-04-10T00:48:36Z phoe: I have lisp, I have IRC, I have doom
2017-04-10T00:48:58Z holycow: life is pretty much complete, i agree
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2017-04-10T00:51:13Z phoe: ...I HAVE QUAKE
2017-04-10T00:51:22Z phoe: froggey: how did you port sdlquake to lisp!?
2017-04-10T00:51:24Z holycow: i saw it.  how do you run it?
2017-04-10T00:57:03Z phoe: holycow: uh
2017-04-10T00:57:06Z phoe: the icon is there
2017-04-10T00:57:12Z phoe: you need to exit the initial windows
2017-04-10T00:57:26Z holycow: oh! heh
2017-04-10T01:00:17Z phoe: this is so totally a hidden feature
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2017-04-10T01:02:57Z phoe: first they go gawking over "holy fuck it's doom"
2017-04-10T01:03:07Z phoe: and then when the initial gawk goes
2017-04-10T01:03:14Z phoe: OMG THERE IS THIS HIDDEN QUAKE
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2017-04-10T01:03:29Z holycow: heh
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2017-04-10T01:04:39Z holycow: froggey: this is amazing
2017-04-10T01:06:00Z phoe: this is amazing
2017-04-10T01:06:17Z holycow: did you find the videos folder?
2017-04-10T01:06:21Z phoe: holycow: yes
2017-04-10T01:06:24Z phoe: in the Filer
2017-04-10T01:06:34Z holycow: filer works great
2017-04-10T01:06:58Z holycow: been browsing some of the source.  i cant tell where his code begins :)
2017-04-10T01:07:52Z holycow: uh, alt-tab works
2017-04-10T01:07:53Z holycow: heh
2017-04-10T01:08:00Z phoe: woah
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2017-04-10T01:17:27Z holycow: phoe: on this release, booting from cd/usb on real hardware is possible
2017-04-10T01:17:28Z holycow: lol!
2017-04-10T01:17:32Z holycow: huh
2017-04-10T01:17:53Z phoe: holy cow
2017-04-10T01:17:56Z phoe: I mean, uh
2017-04-10T01:18:04Z phoe: <exclamation of disbelief>
2017-04-10T01:18:28Z holycow: i know, aparently they added support for intel hda audio as well
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2017-04-10T01:18:58Z holycow: well,this make may accomplishments look like nothing
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2017-04-10T01:20:07Z p_l: ... quick, we need CLIM ported to it
2017-04-10T01:20:18Z p_l: so we can get look'n'feel of dynamic windows back on hw ;D
2017-04-10T01:20:24Z phoe: wait
2017-04-10T01:20:28Z phoe: HDA Audio?
2017-04-10T01:20:34Z holycow: hda audio
2017-04-10T01:20:39Z phoe: it means that we should be able to run it in VirtualBox
2017-04-10T01:21:01Z holycow: apparently, not sure what my chipset is here
2017-04-10T01:21:51Z holycow: mebbe someone can port hemlock to mezzano as well! heh
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2017-04-10T01:35:48Z nyef: Wow. A real GC, a web browser, and the ability to self-host, and it may actually be usable.
2017-04-10T01:37:18Z holycow: web browser?  telnet?
2017-04-10T01:37:44Z holycow: but yeah, as far as the basics go, mezzano has a great chunk out of the box for sure
2017-04-10T01:41:20Z holycow: maybe porting lispkit to mezzano might be fun
2017-04-10T01:43:52Z holycow: wait wait wait
2017-04-10T01:43:58Z holycow: can filer do http?
2017-04-10T01:46:43Z phoe: I don't know
2017-04-10T01:46:47Z phoe: does Mezzano include drakma?
2017-04-10T01:46:51Z phoe: because drakma surely can do
2017-04-10T01:47:03Z holycow: under source mezzano/file
2017-04-10T01:47:06Z holycow: http.lisp
2017-04-10T01:47:13Z phoe: ooh
2017-04-10T01:47:16Z phoe: hm
2017-04-10T01:47:50Z holycow: the lisp repl autocompletes (fs-address
2017-04-10T01:48:01Z holycow: i don't know what the rest of the syntax ought to be
2017-04-10T01:48:08Z holycow: :google.com) did not work
2017-04-10T01:50:52Z holycow: it sure looks like it will try to open up an http address
2017-04-10T01:52:33Z holycow: bbl
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2017-04-10T02:13:01Z nyef: Hrm... Maybe it's time someone tried to resurrect closure?
2017-04-10T02:13:08Z nyef: (Was it "closure"?)
2017-04-10T02:14:58Z phoe: it was
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2017-04-10T02:20:55Z phoe: What are the most important extensions to standard Common Lisp?
2017-04-10T02:21:10Z phoe: MOP is the only one that currently comes to my mind, but I bet there are other ones, too.
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2017-04-10T02:26:16Z nyef: Gray Streams.
2017-04-10T02:26:41Z nyef: I'd rather have Gray Streams than the MOP, TBH.
2017-04-10T02:31:14Z nyef: Oh, and the other version of EXIT-EXTENT. The non-MINIMAL one.
2017-04-10T02:31:19Z p_l wouldn't mind streams that accept objects as well
2017-04-10T02:31:33Z nyef: p_l: That's CLIM, isn't it? d-:
2017-04-10T02:31:35Z p_l: oh, oh, and the environment control
2017-04-10T02:31:48Z p_l: nyef: actually older and separate from CLIM, afaik, but CLIM reimplemneted it as well
2017-04-10T02:32:06Z nyef: Yeah, yeah.
2017-04-10T02:32:19Z p_l: it was used in Genera's network code
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2017-04-10T02:53:33Z p_l: nyef: have you played with latest mezzano demo?
2017-04-10T02:54:54Z nyef: p_l: No, I haven't.
2017-04-10T02:55:00Z nyef: Thinking about giving it a try, though.
2017-04-10T02:55:09Z p_l: ... do so
2017-04-10T02:55:27Z p_l: though, give it a lot of ram
2017-04-10T02:55:44Z p_l: much more than the 512 that is minimum (world file has 512MB unpacked in memory)
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2017-04-10T03:19:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-10T03:20:31Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2017-04-10T03:59:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: Lisp really needs extensible sequences that work with things like cl:map
2017-04-10T04:00:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: There's even a spec for such an extension, implemented by SBCL and perhaps ABCL
2017-04-10T04:00:21Z loke:  fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2017-04-10T04:00:23Z loke: other CL'
2017-04-10T04:00:36Z loke: other CL's has it too, but using a different API, I think. At least LW
2017-04-10T04:00:41Z loke: (i think_
2017-04-10T04:00:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I don't know anything about commercial lisps
2017-04-10T04:01:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: But I'm hoping to buy LW in the near-ish future so I can make crossplatform GUI apps
2017-04-10T04:02:08Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: What API does LW use for graphics?
2017-04-10T04:02:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: They have their CAPI library
2017-04-10T04:02:26Z loke: I see
2017-04-10T04:02:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know how it works under the hood, but I hear it's really nice
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2017-04-10T04:03:07Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: The QT bindings are supposedly not terrible.
2017-04-10T04:03:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've played with qtools a bit
2017-04-10T04:03:22Z loke: common-qt or whatever it's called.
2017-04-10T04:03:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: fiddlerwoaroof: What do you mean by extensible sequences? Lazy sequences?
2017-04-10T04:03:55Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: custom classes that can be used with things such as MAP or SUBSEQ
2017-04-10T04:03:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Also, there's supposed to be a pretty good Qt lisp binding now.
2017-04-10T04:04:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I've used CommonQT/QTools
2017-04-10T04:04:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: ah, okay
2017-04-10T04:04:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's ok, but it wasn't the most pleasant things to use.
2017-04-10T04:04:57Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/ilc2007/sequences-20070301.pdf
2017-04-10T04:05:03Z loke: Graphics programming is rarely pleasant.
2017-04-10T04:05:25Z loke: However, it's remarkable how each new generation of graphics programming is decidedly _worse_ than the previous.
2017-04-10T04:05:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: thanks beach
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2017-04-10T04:05:44Z pillton: I blame MVC.
2017-04-10T04:05:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke: that's really true
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2017-04-10T04:06:04Z loke: Leading us up the the most modern generation: web-based GUI's with frameworks. That's an asbolutely nightmarish experience.
2017-04-10T04:06:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: The _only_ decent GUI programming tool I've ever used was Delphi
2017-04-10T04:06:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: circa Delphi 4
2017-04-10T04:07:21Z loke: I'm trying to think about which one I liked.
2017-04-10T04:07:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: pillton: You don't like the seperation of layout and style sheets with code?
2017-04-10T04:08:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like HTML/CSS for document-like applications
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2017-04-10T04:08:34Z loke: Java/Swing can be OK
2017-04-10T04:08:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: But trying to make a GUI is really painful
2017-04-10T04:08:47Z loke: Motif wasn't bad either.
2017-04-10T04:09:57Z Petit_Dejeuner likes Python's Tk bindings up until the Tk leaks through.
2017-04-10T04:10:07Z pillton: Petit_Dejeuner: Layout and style is the easiest part of the GUI.
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2017-04-10T04:10:48Z loke: A pity TK looks like... well, think of something really ugly. TK looks like that.
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2017-04-10T04:11:56Z pillton: Petit_Dejeuner: Managing state and data flow such that it is completely decoupled from the GUI is what makes it hard.
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2017-04-10T04:28:38Z whoman: whats your motif
2017-04-10T04:30:33Z whoman: openstep/cocoa/gnustep i really liked for (OO) gui. i have a feeling i may like some FRP toolkits but ive not had the chance to explore that
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2017-04-10T04:39:11Z pillton: whoman: Are you talking to me?
2017-04-10T04:40:02Z whoman: sorry i am just contributing to the older conversation. (motif (rather than motive) is a gui toolkit also, playing with words)
2017-04-10T04:41:29Z jasom: loke: tk only looks ugly if you are on linux and use the default skin.  It looks native on windows and mac by default, but on linux they chose "motif" for the native skin, which made sense in the 90s but is ugly now.
2017-04-10T04:41:55Z pillton: Wow. Something made sense in the 90s.
2017-04-10T04:42:59Z beach: Now, now.
2017-04-10T04:44:05Z pillton: I wasn't having a go at jasom. I was making a joke at the 90s.
2017-04-10T04:44:31Z jasom: pillton: what you don't like hypercolor and vanilla ice?
2017-04-10T04:44:44Z whoman: grunge rock and retro games T_T
2017-04-10T04:44:52Z whoman: mid-ret*
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2017-04-10T04:47:04Z pillton: jasom: I was too young to have an opinion worth remembering.
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2017-04-10T06:16:48Z froggey: phoe: I wrote an LLVM to Common Lisp transpiler (similar to emscripten) and built sdl/prboom/sdlquake with it
2017-04-10T06:17:30Z froggey: there is a working HDA audio driver, but making sound work nicely was too much effort for demo3 so I dropped it
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2017-04-10T06:24:36Z phoe_: froggey: woah
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2017-04-10T06:41:41Z jasom: froggey: can you self-host clang with that?
2017-04-10T06:47:10Z froggey: I think it'd be possible, if someone ported libc++
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2017-04-10T07:05:42Z shrdlu68: In a project I'm working on (cl-tls), when a user starts a tls session, they get back three callbacks: a read function, write function, and a close function (closures).
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2017-04-10T07:06:05Z phoe_: shrdlu68: yes, and?
2017-04-10T07:06:18Z shrdlu68: I'm wondering whether I can use the condition system to pass back new callbacks when a tls renegotiation occurs.
2017-04-10T07:06:38Z pillton: What the callbacks for?
2017-04-10T07:06:42Z shrdlu68: Renegotiation is not a necessary feature of tls, but the spec recommends it.
2017-04-10T07:06:44Z pillton: What are.. sorry.
2017-04-10T07:07:17Z phoe_: this depends
2017-04-10T07:07:22Z shrdlu68: The read callback reads from the tls tunnel and returns an octet vector. The write function takes an octet vector and sends it down the tls tunnel.
2017-04-10T07:07:28Z phoe_: how do you handle the renegotiation?
2017-04-10T07:07:36Z shrdlu68: The close function simply closes the tunnel.
2017-04-10T07:07:45Z phoe_: I mean, where and when can it occur?
2017-04-10T07:07:52Z phoe_: during read/write?
2017-04-10T07:08:08Z shrdlu68: Hmm...
2017-04-10T07:08:11Z pillton: Don't use signals for normal operation.
2017-04-10T07:08:31Z phoe_: pillton: from what I see, a renegotiation does not look like normal operation.
2017-04-10T07:08:43Z phoe_: more like an exception to the normal flow of reading/writing octets.
2017-04-10T07:08:48Z shrdlu68: It occurs when a client receives a hello_request record from the server.
2017-04-10T07:09:08Z phoe_: so basically, during read.
2017-04-10T07:09:12Z shrdlu68: Yes.
2017-04-10T07:09:27Z phoe_: so, your read function encounters the hello_request
2017-04-10T07:09:34Z shrdlu68: Yes.
2017-04-10T07:09:37Z phoe_: makes the renegotiation
2017-04-10T07:09:42Z phoe_: grabs the three new callbacks
2017-04-10T07:09:46Z phoe_: stuffs them into a condition
2017-04-10T07:10:03Z phoe_: signals the condition, possibly by #'ERROR to force debugger entry in case it is not handled
2017-04-10T07:10:11Z shrdlu68: Ah...
2017-04-10T07:10:21Z phoe_: and the handler is able to handle this by calling the new functions in their proper place
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2017-04-10T07:10:33Z phoe_: or
2017-04-10T07:10:37Z phoe_: another flow
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2017-04-10T07:10:45Z phoe_: your read function encounters the hello_request
2017-04-10T07:10:57Z phoe_: signals the need for renegotiation
2017-04-10T07:11:09Z phoe_: your handler is called in this spot without a non-local transfer of control
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2017-04-10T07:11:19Z phoe_: called by SIGNAL and not by ERROR
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2017-04-10T07:11:29Z phoe_: it does the renegotiation
2017-04-10T07:11:50Z phoe_: rebinds three dynamic variables that house the callbacks to new values
2017-04-10T07:11:56Z shrdlu68: Both sound good, but I like the latter.
2017-04-10T07:11:59Z phoe_: calls the read callback
2017-04-10T07:12:09Z phoe_: uh, wait, no, doesn't call the read callback
2017-04-10T07:12:17Z phoe_: because the value returned from the handler is discarded
2017-04-10T07:12:40Z phoe_: ...uh, it may call read and set its return value to some sorta fourth dynamic variable
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2017-04-10T07:12:53Z pillton: Or.. you could just write a state machine.
2017-04-10T07:12:55Z phoe_: the handler returns/declines
2017-04-10T07:13:00Z phoe_: the control goes on
2017-04-10T07:13:11Z shrdlu68: Initially, the three callbacks are acquired by calling #'cl-tls:connect (as a client) and #'cl-tls:accept as a server.
2017-04-10T07:13:14Z phoe_: the function normally returns the value of that fourth dynamic variable
2017-04-10T07:13:22Z phoe_: and it should be working.
2017-04-10T07:13:28Z phoe_: hopefully.
2017-04-10T07:13:45Z shrdlu68: So the client could simply choose to call #'connect again when a renegotiation is signalled.
2017-04-10T07:13:57Z phoe_: huh, sure thing
2017-04-10T07:14:16Z phoe_: you can write READ in a way that, when it encounters a new hello, signals a condition
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2017-04-10T07:14:48Z phoe_: ...but binding its return value to a temporary variable is messy
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2017-04-10T07:15:27Z shrdlu68: I don't follow...the entire callback scheme?
2017-04-10T07:15:33Z phoe_: no no
2017-04-10T07:15:38Z phoe_: I'm thinking how to work with this
2017-04-10T07:15:51Z phoe_: basically you have some sort of TLS-READ function that is meant to return an octet stream
2017-04-10T07:16:11Z phoe_: but in case it encounters a renegotiation
2017-04-10T07:16:12Z shrdlu68: Yes, a closure that has a session object.
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2017-04-10T07:16:42Z phoe_: uh, hm
2017-04-10T07:16:47Z phoe_: this is more complicated
2017-04-10T07:17:20Z shrdlu68: I guess it could simply return some other value other than aon octet vector when a hello_request is received.
2017-04-10T07:17:35Z phoe_: I say signal instead of returning
2017-04-10T07:18:15Z phoe_: so a restart might want to call CONNECT and then TLS-READ perhaps
2017-04-10T07:18:52Z pillton: Doesn't the user just want something like read-sequence?
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2017-04-10T07:19:21Z shrdlu68: pillton: #'connect return a read-seqeunce function.
2017-04-10T07:19:37Z shrdlu68: And a write-sequence function, and a close-tunnel function.
2017-04-10T07:19:37Z pillton: Why can't the user just call tls:read-sequence?
2017-04-10T07:19:43Z phoe_: oh yes - a restart, that's what I was missing.
2017-04-10T07:19:58Z phoe_: you can signal a condition, something like RECONNECT-REQUIRED
2017-04-10T07:20:11Z phoe_: and you can handle it by invoking a restart
2017-04-10T07:20:21Z phoe_: which first goes CONNECT and then goes TLS-READ again
2017-04-10T07:20:47Z shrdlu68: Hmm...I need to explain this again.
2017-04-10T07:20:48Z phoe_: at which point the value returned from the TLS-READ inside the restart will be returned from the original TLS-READ in which you invoked the restart.
2017-04-10T07:21:20Z shrdlu68: Initially, a client calls #'connect to open a tls tunnel.
2017-04-10T07:21:23Z jasom: shrdlu68: what's the advantage of returning callbacks over having a tls-connection object with methods for doing the read/write/close
2017-04-10T07:22:06Z shrdlu68: #'connect returns three callback: read-sequence, write-sequence, and close-tunnel.
2017-04-10T07:22:14Z jasom: shrdlu68: but why?
2017-04-10T07:22:39Z shrdlu68: jasom: None, really.
2017-04-10T07:23:04Z shrdlu68: I think it's cleaner that way.
2017-04-10T07:23:06Z jasom: shrdlu68: because if you encounter a renegotiation, and you have an explicit object, then you have more options for how to handle it
2017-04-10T07:24:32Z shrdlu68: I see, but then that would require the user to start messing around with low-level tls stuff.
2017-04-10T07:25:00Z shrdlu68: I think/thought returning the three callbacks makes the entire thing simpler.
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2017-04-10T07:25:34Z shrdlu68: At this point the tunnel has already been open, so the user simply makes read/write/close operations.
2017-04-10T07:25:39Z jasom: shrdlu68: well simple is you just mutate the state of the object when a renegotiation happens, unless they install their own handler
2017-04-10T07:25:52Z mood_btf: shrdlu68: If you don't want the user to care about lower level stuff, is it even necessary for them to know about renegotiation?
2017-04-10T07:26:05Z pillton: shrdlu68: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343964
2017-04-10T07:26:49Z jasom: shrdlu68: I guess the builtin read/write/close all take a stream object, so I'd want a reason to deviate from that.
2017-04-10T07:26:56Z shrdlu68: mood_btf: Touche
2017-04-10T07:27:17Z shrdlu68: Well, cl-tls only deals with streams.
2017-04-10T07:27:47Z shrdlu68: Other libraries can be built on top of it offering sockets/threads/event loop functionality.
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2017-04-10T07:28:25Z shrdlu68: Currently I'm testing using usockets and bordeaux-threads.
2017-04-10T07:29:06Z shrdlu68: As a wrapper on top of cl-tls.
2017-04-10T07:29:09Z ogamita: (incf shrdlu68 )
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2017-04-10T07:33:08Z shrdlu68: ogamita: thanks :)
2017-04-10T07:33:35Z phoe_: shrdlu68: you should change your nick to shrdlu69
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2017-04-10T07:34:25Z jasom: well it could be base 9 in which case it would be shrdlu70
2017-04-10T07:48:50Z loke: shrdlu69: cl-tls?
2017-04-10T07:49:02Z loke: Different from CL+SSL?
2017-04-10T07:51:11Z jackdaniel: afair cl-tls was pure cl
2017-04-10T07:51:20Z jackdaniel: while cl+ssl is a libssl library wrapper
2017-04-10T07:51:36Z shrdlu69: Yes. Will hopefully release it in a few days.
2017-04-10T07:51:49Z jackdaniel: that will be a huge leap towards portability
2017-04-10T07:52:00Z jackdaniel: deploying libssl on windows is a nightmare :)
2017-04-10T07:53:27Z mood_btf: It could perhaps also be awesome for Quicklisp
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2017-04-10T08:03:16Z loke: Doesn't Windows come with openssl?
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2017-04-10T08:05:24Z jackdaniel: you have to build it, or download and install build with installer
2017-04-10T08:05:38Z mood_btf: loke: It doesn't. It has its own TLS stack
2017-04-10T08:05:39Z jackdaniel: and then you have to set up paths or provide full path afair
2017-04-10T08:05:42Z jackdaniel: it was a pain
2017-04-10T08:06:05Z jackdaniel: mood_btf: but it's not openssl library, which cl+ssl works with, right?
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2017-04-10T08:07:01Z shrdlu69: Schannel. Proprietary implementation.
2017-04-10T08:07:10Z loke: mood_btf: Is it API compatible?
2017-04-10T08:07:37Z mood_btf: jackdaniel: Correct. Windows does not come with OpenSSL, but with SChannel
2017-04-10T08:07:40Z mood_btf: loke: No
2017-04-10T08:08:58Z loke: mood_btf: of course it isn't.
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2017-04-10T08:11:37Z mood_btf: To be fair though, OpenSSL isn't exactly a shining example of a sane API
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2017-04-10T08:25:51Z loke: mood_btf: Oh I agree with that. But there definitely is some use to having a standadrised API. Windows wery rarely complies though. I guess things are changing a bit now that Windows isn't the defacto standard anymore.
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2017-04-10T08:31:30Z flip214: in lparallel:make-kernel :bindings -- can I define to use the value of a special at the time of calling submit-task?
2017-04-10T08:31:43Z flip214: the examples I see are only for values at the make-kernel call time.
2017-04-10T08:32:08Z flip214: Ie. I'd like to have the contents of a few specials being relayed into the lparallel worker threads.
2017-04-10T08:32:30Z flip214: IIUC, the :bindings is a once-only setup code per thread...
2017-04-10T08:32:57Z jackdaniel: flip214: you can't, you submit functions to the thread, which exists all the time
2017-04-10T08:33:00Z flip214: so the best thing I can do is to have a wrapper around submit-task that wraps a LAMBDA with LET around the to-be-submitted code?
2017-04-10T08:33:08Z jackdaniel: what you can do, is sending (compose #'set-my-bindings #'my-function)
2017-04-10T08:33:27Z jackdaniel: and set-my-bindings sets bindings declared in make-kernel
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2017-04-10T12:39:42Z flip214: Updating to current quicklisp I get
2017-04-10T12:39:43Z flip214: A function with declared result type NIL returned:
2017-04-10T12:39:43Z flip214:   BORDEAUX-THREADS:CONDITION-WAIT
2017-04-10T12:39:43Z flip214:    [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-CONTROL-ERROR]
2017-04-10T12:39:56Z flip214: Backtrace:
2017-04-10T12:39:56Z flip214:   0: (LPARALLEL.THREAD-UTIL:CONDITION-WAIT #<SB-THREAD:WAITQUEUE Anonymous condition variable {1004D701E3}> #<SB-THREAD:MUTEX "Anonymous lock" owner: #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "lparallel" RUNNING {1004D364F3}>> :.. {{{
2017-04-10T12:40:00Z flip214:       in ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/lparallel-20160825-git/src/thread-util.lisp line 96
2017-04-10T12:41:03Z phoe_: wait, what?
2017-04-10T12:41:21Z phoe_: SBCL checks declared return values?
2017-04-10T12:41:45Z flip214: phoe_: I've got (setf sb-ext:*derive-function-types* t)
2017-04-10T12:41:51Z phoe_: oooh
2017-04-10T12:41:55Z phoe_: what happens when you disable it?
2017-04-10T12:41:59Z flip214: in my ~/.sbclrc, to aid in debugging/developing
2017-04-10T12:42:18Z phoe_: oh.
2017-04-10T12:42:23Z phoe_: is it documented anywhere?
2017-04-10T12:42:53Z _death: ugh, some funky code in lparallel
2017-04-10T12:44:23Z flip214: phoe_: I got that from #lisp, about a week ago
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2017-04-10T12:45:00Z flip214: phoe_: that only helps if purging the fasl cache of b-t, too
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2017-04-10T12:47:11Z phoe_: flip214: I actually made an xD
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2017-04-10T12:47:22Z phoe_: we need to rely more on documentation and less on folk tales and shamanism
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2017-04-10T12:48:05Z flip214: phoe_: well, shouldn't b-t compile with that set as well?
2017-04-10T12:48:12Z phoe_: it should, yes
2017-04-10T12:48:25Z phoe_: except this, uh
2017-04-10T12:48:26Z flip214: I thought that setting this option mostly shows runtime errors at build time, anyway
2017-04-10T12:48:30Z phoe_: it is weird
2017-04-10T12:48:39Z phoe_: and obviously points you towards some badly written code
2017-04-10T12:48:53Z phoe_: I wish this backtrace told you which function that was
2017-04-10T12:49:07Z phoe_: was it condition-wait or something outside it?
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2017-04-10T12:52:37Z flip214: phoe_: paste incoming.
2017-04-10T12:52:53Z phoe_: flip214: preparing to receive paste.
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2017-04-10T12:54:43Z flip214: phoe_: hmmm, just removing the b-t FASLs and QL'ing b-t isn't enough to trigger that again...
2017-04-10T12:55:15Z flip214: yes, it was something around condition-wait...
2017-04-10T12:55:40Z flip214: after purging the whole .cache and rebuilding everything it's now flexi-streams/decode
2017-04-10T12:56:18Z flip214: lparallel works now, though ?!!
2017-04-10T12:56:49Z phoe_: flip214: well
2017-04-10T12:56:57Z phoe_: remove the .fasls and try again
2017-04-10T12:57:03Z flip214: REBUILDING WORLD.
2017-04-10T12:57:11Z phoe_: this should totally be a restart in all loading debugger screens
2017-04-10T12:57:20Z phoe_: Remove *ALL* .fasl files and try again
2017-04-10T12:57:39Z phoe_: a new restart called REBUILD-WORLD.
2017-04-10T12:57:39Z flip214: phoe_: my last command was "rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp".
2017-04-10T12:58:12Z phoe_: flip214: did you restart your Lisp image?
2017-04-10T12:58:16Z phoe_: or just remove the cache?
2017-04-10T12:58:43Z flip214: phoe_: BOTH.
2017-04-10T12:58:52Z flip214: nearly shut down the whole city.
2017-04-10T12:58:55Z flip214: just to make sure.
2017-04-10T12:58:58Z phoe_: well.
2017-04-10T12:59:05Z phoe_: this won't be solvable by a restart then.
2017-04-10T12:59:16Z phoe_: unless you can tell the Lisp image to restart itself from within Lisp itself.
2017-04-10T12:59:20Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343989
2017-04-10T12:59:21Z phoe_: ...which would be a fun function to have
2017-04-10T12:59:22Z flip214: phoe_: ^^
2017-04-10T13:00:37Z flip214: seems like more worm-holes exist, if some libraries were built with that flag set, and others aren't...
2017-04-10T13:00:46Z phoe_: flip214: actually, might be.
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2017-04-10T13:04:43Z flip214: phoe_: so, is using that flag generally a bad idea? I quite like how it shows wrong assumptions or bad recalls...
2017-04-10T13:05:30Z flip214: well, I can't load b-t now.... guess I need to deactivate that flag again. ;(
2017-04-10T13:05:36Z flip214: unless has a quick patch for me...
2017-04-10T13:06:14Z ogamita: flip214: type v to jump to the source expression where the error is found.
2017-04-10T13:06:44Z phoe_: flip214: I have no idea.
2017-04-10T13:07:42Z flip214: ogamita: and then?  (And BTW, my keybindings are different. Slimv, you know ;)
2017-04-10T13:08:06Z flip214: in ~/.quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/lparallel-20160825-git/src/thread-util.lisp line 96
2017-04-10T13:08:20Z flip214: the "else" part of "if timeout"
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2017-04-10T13:09:48Z ogamita: flip214: once you've identified the function that returns something instead of nothing (type NIL has no value, so the function should return (values)), then edit that function to make it return (values).
2017-04-10T13:10:03Z ogamita: or else, edit the type declaration to make it return &rest T
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2017-04-10T13:11:11Z _death: what sbcl version
2017-04-10T13:11:43Z flip214: 1.3.14-2+b1
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2017-04-10T13:11:56Z _death: try with latest
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2017-04-10T13:12:26Z flip214: ogamita: well, LPARALLEL.THREAD-UTIL:CONDITION-WAIT? or the one called in the offending line, bordeaux-threads:condition-wait?
2017-04-10T13:12:41Z flip214: the latter one is
2017-04-10T13:12:41Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T T &KEY (:TIMEOUT T))
2017-04-10T13:12:42Z flip214:                  (VALUES BOOLEAN &OPTIONAL))
2017-04-10T13:12:56Z flip214: the former
2017-04-10T13:12:57Z flip214:   Derived type: (FUNCTION (T T &KEY (:TIMEOUT T)) NIL)
2017-04-10T13:13:08Z flip214: and I'm not sure what the external interface should be.
2017-04-10T13:13:39Z ogamita: flip214: I don't recall any function declaration in BT, so I guess the problem comes from lparallel: they made declarations that worked in one implementation, but not in another. Therefore I think you need to edit the wrappers in lparallel.
2017-04-10T13:13:55Z ogamita: check the documentation of bordeaux-threads.
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2017-04-10T13:16:48Z flip214: no declaration in lparallel that I can find
2017-04-10T13:17:53Z flip214: ;; use special to defeat compiler analysis
2017-04-10T13:17:56Z flip214: https://github.com/lmj/lparallel/blob/master/src/thread-util.lisp#L71
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2017-04-10T13:36:22Z ogamita: flip214: then perhaps the declarations are indeed in bt?
2017-04-10T13:37:06Z ogamita: But: grep --color -nH -e 'proclaim\|declaim' * --> impl-lispworks.lisp:111:(declaim (inline %join-thread))
2017-04-10T13:37:07Z ogamita:  
2017-04-10T13:37:09Z ogamita: in bt.
2017-04-10T13:37:56Z ogamita: flip214: now, reading the error message above more closely, I would say that it is in error.
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2017-04-10T13:40:58Z flip214: ogamita: okay... I'm just standing by, and hope for a fix somewhere.  ;)
2017-04-10T13:41:49Z lexicall: hi :) I met a problem here. I define a parameter using (defparameter x (foo)) and the result x is a closure with some large hash tables. The first definition goes good but when I type that expression in repl again, the repl complains "heap exhausted". I guess the garbage collector did not clean my memory properly so I got a memory exhaustion. is there any method to get over this?
2017-04-10T13:42:40Z _death: try clrhashing them first
2017-04-10T13:43:25Z ogamita: flip214: the thing is that the implementation finds a type of a function returning a boolean, and finds a function that returns (values).  but (values) can be interpreted as a boolean false, so it should be valid!
2017-04-10T13:43:44Z ogamita: (if (values) 'what? 'ok) #| --> ok |#
2017-04-10T13:44:05Z jdz: lexicall: or having more memory (if you're using SBCL see --dynamic-space-size parameter).
2017-04-10T13:44:16Z lexicall: _death: but x is a closure and I lost the reference to the hashtables.
2017-04-10T13:44:37Z _death: lexicall: you'll have to make a way to communicate that you want to do that, then
2017-04-10T13:44:52Z lexicall: okay I will try both, thanks.
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2017-04-10T13:55:17Z flip214: lexicall: perhaps you've still got the closure in *, **, or ***, and therefore memory won't be freed?
2017-04-10T13:56:13Z flip214: ogamita: well, time for an SBCL fix, then, right?
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2017-04-10T13:57:31Z lexicall: flip214: no I think. and I even free that closure using (setf x nil) before re-define it.
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2017-04-10T14:13:56Z p_l: https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1979-08
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2017-04-10T14:36:09Z flip214: "You can do surprising things when you have 64 kilobytes of fast RAM on one card" <<< I did, quite some time ago ;)
2017-04-10T14:36:37Z francogrex: hi, is someone who knows a little bit cffi interested or has patience to try this simple example: http://paste.lisp.org/display/343992
2017-04-10T14:36:42Z flip214: I still have some C64 magazines at home...
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2017-04-10T14:39:24Z francogrex: related to the above it seems that Clisp had a potentially good ffi, better than cffi itself
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2017-04-10T15:06:42Z ogamita: francogrex: indeed, clisp has the best FFI.
2017-04-10T15:07:55Z whoman: i dunno.. emacs ffi is good
2017-04-10T15:08:43Z ogamita: francogrex: I can't look into it now. Ask it on clisp-user maillist.
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2017-04-10T15:15:06Z francogrex: ogamita: it is strange that CLISP such a good lisp implementation is left without further developments since 2010
2017-04-10T15:16:54Z ogamita: francogrex: this is false.
2017-04-10T15:17:09Z ogamita: again, check the mailing lists (clisp-devel)
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2017-04-10T15:19:06Z francogrex: no official relaese since 2010
2017-04-10T15:19:57Z ogamita: Yep. I didn't have to update my scripts since 2010!  How great is that?  Much better than sbcl which changes each month.
2017-04-10T15:20:20Z ogamita: (and the reason why com.informatimago is not in quicklisp anymore, it compiled before, then suddently it doesn't compile anymore).
2017-04-10T15:20:40Z ogamita: I will have to invest some time to port it to the newest sbcl!
2017-04-10T15:20:53Z ogamita: Imagine the cost, multiplied by all the libraries around!
2017-04-10T15:21:47Z francogrex: ok actually if there is no real need to update i can understand
2017-04-10T15:22:25Z whoman: but common lisp hasnt changed for much longer... being an implementation, any CL code should be alright, no?
2017-04-10T15:22:38Z whoman: err *being CL code, any implementation should be alright no ?
2017-04-10T15:22:48Z flip214: p_l: who is that "marcus!" on p57?
2017-04-10T15:23:46Z _death: whoman: if it's limited to the standard facilities, yes
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2017-04-10T15:24:37Z whoman: yeah. i would gather than any code that needs to be portable across implementations wouldnt rely on nonportable stuff anyway, philosophically and technically
2017-04-10T15:26:16Z _death: portable code may rely on portability layers, which in turn rely on implementation-specific code
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2017-04-10T15:32:02Z whoman: uhh
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2017-04-10T15:32:44Z whoman: pure CL code relies on portability layers? that sounds a bit like locking the key beyond the locked door kind of thing...
2017-04-10T15:33:32Z phoe_: whoman: no, not pure CL code
2017-04-10T15:33:56Z phoe_: code that does stuff not specified in the standard but works uniformly between implementations
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2017-04-10T15:34:04Z _death: I don't know what you mean by "pure CL code".. I meant code that can run on multiple implementations without change..
2017-04-10T15:34:10Z phoe_: like networking or threading or Gray streams
2017-04-10T15:34:17Z whoman: okay. ive seen code that conditions based on CL implementation like #sbcl compile if.. i forget the syntax
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2017-04-10T15:34:50Z whoman: _death, me too. by "pure CL code" i also meant code that works on all common lisp implementations
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2017-04-10T15:35:17Z whoman: only depending on CL itself, and possibly whatever else it depends on, also only depends on pure CL, and what they depend on, etc etc
2017-04-10T15:36:07Z _death: whoman: one has to distinguish between code that uses only the standard facilities and code that may run on all current implementations of Common Lisp but uses portability layers
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2017-04-10T15:37:05Z whoman: what is a portability layer? i dont think about such like bordeaux-threads or cl-who
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2017-04-10T15:37:25Z nyef: There's also the difference between code that happens to run on all current implementations and code that actually conforms to the specification such that it is guaranteed to run on all implementations.
2017-04-10T15:37:29Z whoman: i understand how optimizations are probably different depending on implementation
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2017-04-10T15:37:48Z whoman: true, that makes more sense to me nyef
2017-04-10T15:38:04Z _death: whoman: I think of bordeaux-threads as a portability layer.. cffi, trivial-* usually, uiop, etc.
2017-04-10T15:38:19Z whoman: (the first category with or without implementation compilation conditionals)
2017-04-10T15:38:59Z whoman: _death, yeah, okay.. but those are alright if they are also pure-CL? if we mindfully recurse the tree of deps that is. sorry im dragging this too far
2017-04-10T15:39:47Z nyef: closer-mop (?) would also be a portability layer.
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2017-04-10T15:40:23Z _death: whoman: they cannot in general be "pure-CL" according to your definition, because they use operators that are not in the Common Lisp standard
2017-04-10T15:40:47Z _death: whoman: and that usually cannot be defined using only the standard facilities
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2017-04-10T15:41:01Z whoman: oh yeah duh! true =) sorry & thanks for clearing that up. i am awake now
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2017-04-10T15:47:22Z Zhivago: And even if they depend on pure-CL, they might not be portable.
2017-04-10T15:47:42Z Zhivago: So it's not perhaps quite as useful as all that.
2017-04-10T15:48:27Z _death: yes, they also need to abide by the limits set by the standard and such
2017-04-10T15:48:47Z flip214: the messages originates in cast-check-uses
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2017-04-10T15:49:18Z _death: but in practice, it is still quite useful.. and I can run, say, some jwz hacks from the 90s without change
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2017-04-10T15:51:02Z _death: (a lot of the cmu-ai code, actually)
2017-04-10T15:52:30Z Zhivago: Mostly my point is that it's a continuum of portability rather than a discontinuity.
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2017-04-10T15:59:13Z _death: I wonder how much modern stuff work on old systems.. I know some lispm users run software from the last decade
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2017-04-10T16:09:27Z a7f4: hello everybody!
2017-04-10T16:09:29Z a7f4: i wonder if somewhere exist documentation for cl-random, does anybody know?
2017-04-10T16:10:11Z beach: Hello a7f4.
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2017-04-10T16:12:52Z a7f4: hi, beach.
2017-04-10T16:13:29Z a7f4: sorry for my weird english. it's not my native language.
2017-04-10T16:13:47Z beach: Not a problem.  Most people here are not native speakers.
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2017-04-10T16:15:51Z a7f4: i try to find any docs about cl-random, but without any success :(
2017-04-10T16:16:05Z Grue``: "The library is well-tested and functional, but the API is still in flux. Please refer to the unit-tests directory for examples."
2017-04-10T16:16:15Z beach: Yeah, the doc directory is pretty skimpy.
2017-04-10T16:16:44Z Grue``: probably refers to this https://github.com/tpapp/cl-random/tree/master/tests
2017-04-10T16:22:35Z a7f4: i stuck with "cl-random/tests/random-number-generator.lisp"
2017-04-10T16:22:35Z a7f4: can't figure out what is 'cl-rng
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2017-04-10T16:29:55Z jackdaniel: a7f4: is there some reason you don't want to use native function random?
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2017-04-10T16:31:03Z jackdaniel: cl-rng is probably name of a class representing random number generator which is native to CL (while 'gsll-rng is based on some gpu routines) - or something like that
2017-04-10T16:31:42Z beach: jackdaniel: I suspect cl-random is more than just a random-number generator.
2017-04-10T16:31:59Z jackdaniel: ah, OK
2017-04-10T16:32:07Z jackdaniel: sorry for bringing confusion then
2017-04-10T16:32:48Z beach: It takes into account the statistical distribution.
2017-04-10T16:33:57Z beach: The function CL:RANDOM just handles uniform distribution.
2017-04-10T16:35:13Z a7f4: jackdaniel: are you sure that 'cl-rng is native to CL ?
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2017-04-10T16:36:13Z a7f4: i try (make-instance 'cl-rng), and got error: there is no class named ...
2017-04-10T16:36:14Z jackdaniel: a7f4: no, that was my guess, I was judging by a name
2017-04-10T16:36:23Z a7f4: jackdaniel: ah, ok
2017-04-10T16:36:25Z jackdaniel: a7f4: are you doing it in correct package?
2017-04-10T16:38:49Z a7f4: i'm in cl-user
2017-04-10T16:39:16Z jackdaniel: try (apropos "CL-RNG")
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2017-04-10T16:40:00Z jackdaniel: there is no class definition in cl-random for it, weird
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2017-04-10T16:44:54Z jackdaniel: I suspect that tests got bit rotten
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2017-04-10T16:45:07Z jackdaniel: "random-number-generator" is commented in system definition
2017-04-10T16:45:16Z jackdaniel: same as multivariant, regressions and statistics tests
2017-04-10T16:45:34Z jackdaniel: so they were either planned but never implemented, or implemented, but removed afterwards in favor of better api
2017-04-10T16:45:52Z jackdaniel: a7f4: see toplevel file cl-random.asd
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2017-04-10T16:48:14Z a7f4: jackdaniel: yeah... sadly, i thought i found gem
2017-04-10T16:48:55Z a7f4: anyway, thx for help!
2017-04-10T16:49:26Z a7f4: will try to ask author
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2017-04-10T17:39:59Z newbs: jackdaniel: Does ecl support being embedded in a multithreaded c++ program?
2017-04-10T17:41:02Z newbs: Whenever we have various c++ threads interacting with ecl, the program crashes immediately
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2017-04-10T17:58:07Z warweasle: newbs: Is it build with multithreading enabled? Are you communicating through something like trivial-ipc?
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2017-04-10T18:03:11Z jackdaniel: see recently closed issue on gitlab
2017-04-10T18:03:15Z jackdaniel: it can
2017-04-10T18:03:42Z jackdaniel: im on phone. ans later :)
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2017-04-10T18:08:57Z newbs: warweasle: This is the debian package for ubuntu 16.04, I'm hoping threads come enabled by default. At least i'm see :threads in *features*, but maybe this related to the lisp multi-threading?
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2017-04-10T18:12:34Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/373
2017-04-10T18:12:38Z jackdaniel: here
2017-04-10T18:12:48Z jackdaniel: cu later
2017-04-10T18:13:15Z newbs: jackdaniel: this seems to be exactly it, awesome. I'm looking into examples/threads/import/import.c now
2017-04-10T18:13:23Z newbs: thank you so much
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2017-04-11T01:12:21Z lexicall: is it a practical method to INTERN a string to a symbol for future comparison? EQUALing a string takes O(n) while EQing a symbol takes O(1) though.
2017-04-11T01:13:37Z nyef: lexicall: It can be, but INTERNing a string is almost-certainly more expensive than running EQUAL on the string.
2017-04-11T01:13:58Z nyef: Well, INTERNing a symbol.
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2017-04-11T01:15:27Z lexicall: got it, although I'm not so familiar about how CL interns a symbol.
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2017-04-11T01:15:56Z lexicall: I guess CL uses a hash table for symbols lookup, isn't it?
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2017-04-11T01:16:37Z cromachina: sounds implementation dependent
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2017-04-11T01:24:17Z White_Flame: lexicall: in order to perform that future comparison, you're going to have to intern that string, which isn't O(n), and then perform the EQ comparison
2017-04-11T01:24:33Z White_Flame: normal test:  (equal str1 str2)
2017-04-11T01:24:58Z White_Flame: interned test:  (let ((sym1 (intern str1)) (sym2 (intern str2))) (eq sym1 sym2))
2017-04-11T01:25:03Z White_Flame: with only one of the interns amortized away
2017-04-11T01:25:05Z lexicall: White_Flame: yeah I understand that. So my method costs generally more time.
2017-04-11T01:27:00Z lexicall: I know python makes cache for some small strings and I want to make a similar mechanism in CL, without modifying the compiler.
2017-04-11T01:27:16Z edgar-rft: internet test: ping
2017-04-11T01:28:20Z White_Flame: you mean you want strings to be made EQ at source code read time?
2017-04-11T01:28:24Z White_Flame: edgar-rft: pong
2017-04-11T01:29:04Z edgar-rft: internet test succeeded :-)
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2017-04-11T01:48:21Z aeth: Oh wow, now I feel stupid. I was wondering how to turn this into a setf the other day... https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/7a0c6d678610a02fc17f6d7cf585feb95eb32e51/util/util.lisp#L55-63
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2017-04-11T01:49:32Z aeth: It's as simple as "(defsetf array-row (array row) (&rest variable-values)" as the first line instead of "(defmacro set-array-row (array row variable-list)"
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2017-04-11T01:50:25Z aeth: No reason to mess with define-setf-expander
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2017-04-11T01:53:08Z aeth: Identical SBCL disassembly, too, so no performance loss in SBCL.
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2017-04-11T02:10:58Z presiden: Hello, question about SBCL, Let say in hash-table *h* we have key 'foo with value 'quux, why (gethash 'foo *h*) output two line in SBCL, the first line is QUUX and the second line is T?
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2017-04-11T02:13:45Z presiden: example http://paste.lisp.org/+7DG4
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2017-04-11T02:18:10Z presiden: ah, reading it again, gethash use multiple return value
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2017-04-11T02:25:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the second one lets you distinguish a stored nil from a missing value
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2017-04-11T03:10:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-11T03:11:28Z shrdlu69: Hello.
2017-04-11T03:13:14Z PuercoPop: aeth: wow feel stupid when you can feel wiser ^_^
2017-04-11T03:16:09Z aeth: PuercoPop: I feel doubly stupid because it doesn't work
2017-04-11T03:17:04Z aeth: or rather, the values list it takes will always be size 2, with nil for things smaller and ignoring all of the values past the second for things larger
2017-04-11T03:17:11Z aeth: My test case happened to be of size 2.
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2017-04-11T03:20:12Z aeth: &rest won't work, but arbitrarily long values there will. like (variable-0 variable-1 variable-2 variable-3)
2017-04-11T03:20:44Z aeth: I think I'll just define size 2, 3, and 4 versions that will fit my needs.
2017-04-11T03:23:56Z shrdlu69: Why didn't the spec standardize sockets?
2017-04-11T03:24:28Z beach: shrdlu69: Why do you care?
2017-04-11T03:24:41Z beach: shrdlu69: I don't think the C standard has sockets in it.
2017-04-11T03:24:45Z beach: Nor the C++ standard.
2017-04-11T03:25:00Z beach: Plus, most people happily use languages that don't even HAVE a standard.
2017-04-11T03:25:38Z Zhivago: shrudlu: When was posix standardized?
2017-04-11T03:26:02Z shrdlu69: I'd have to look that up.
2017-04-11T03:26:12Z Zhivago: The posix C standard has sockets in it, for what that's worth.
2017-04-11T03:26:31Z beach: I was referring to the ISO standard.
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2017-04-11T03:26:38Z beach: But I get your point.
2017-04-11T03:28:04Z aeth: Zhivago: CL was standardized before the only two remaining OSes were Unixes (or Unix-like) and Windows. What if BeOS won?
2017-04-11T03:28:22Z aeth: (Interesting, BeOS actually came *after* the CL spec!)
2017-04-11T03:30:04Z Zhivago: CL started back in the early 80s.
2017-04-11T03:30:35Z aeth: Yes, but they could have added something as late as the early 1990s.
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2017-04-11T03:31:03Z Zhivago: Sure, but given that they took like 18 years to get the first standard through ...
2017-04-11T03:31:39Z shrdlu69: "Many Common Lisp programmers used to pronounce CLOS as "C lost" in the mid 1980s"
2017-04-11T03:31:57Z beach: shrdlu69: My question remains.  Why do you care?
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2017-04-11T03:32:45Z beach: [about sockets]
2017-04-11T03:33:35Z shrdlu69: beach: I'm implementing a network-based protocol.
2017-04-11T03:34:03Z beach: shrdlu69: No, I was asking "why do you care whether it is in the standard?"
2017-04-11T03:35:08Z shrdlu69: Well, it would be great to have it standardized, for portability. And curiosity as to why it wasn't standardized.
2017-04-11T03:35:11Z aeth: Zhivago: Yeah, but AmigaOS was still going on in the early 1990s (and still is!). Classic (non-Unix) Mac OS as well. OS/2 was still around. I already mentioned that BeOS was coming, one year after the spec. And there was probably a hope that a LispOS like Open Genera would take off.
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2017-04-11T03:36:25Z aeth: So there was a diversity that just doesn't exist in today's world of Windows, Linux, FooBSD, and macOS (based on BSD)
2017-04-11T03:36:54Z shrdlu69: GNU Hurd...
2017-04-11T03:36:58Z pillton: What type of network-based protocol?
2017-04-11T03:37:12Z shrdlu69: tls
2017-04-11T03:37:58Z pillton: There are plenty of socket APIs: usocket, IOLib, basic-binary-ipc.
2017-04-11T03:38:01Z Zhivago: I don't think that lisp programmers cared about the amiga or mac.
2017-04-11T03:38:32Z aeth: There were also about 100 proprietary, incompatible Unixes.
2017-04-11T03:38:39Z aeth: Instead of just BSD vs. Linux.
2017-04-11T03:38:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: shrdlu69: I'm not sure what important difference there is between a standard and a library like usocket
2017-04-11T03:39:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: in this case
2017-04-11T03:39:35Z shrdlu69: fiddlerwoaroof: Does usocket cover all widely used implementations?
2017-04-11T03:39:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as I know
2017-04-11T03:40:05Z shrdlu69: You're right, there's no real difference.
2017-04-11T03:40:22Z pillton: Today there are three different socket multiplexing interfaces: epoll, kqueue and overlapped-IO.
2017-04-11T03:42:02Z shrdlu69: usockets supports "ABCL, ACL, ECL, CLISP, CMUCL, LispWorks, MCL, CCL, SBCL, and SCL"
2017-04-11T03:42:12Z shrdlu69: I think that's everyone.
2017-04-11T03:42:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Theoretically, you could probably implement usocket entirely in CFFI too
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2017-04-11T03:43:18Z nyef: shrdlu69: I'm not seeing Clasp in that list.
2017-04-11T03:43:33Z nyef: I guess it might not fit the description of "widely used".
2017-04-11T03:43:41Z aeth: Clasp doesn't support most things (yet)
2017-04-11T03:44:04Z nyef: It's not a question of Clasp supporting it, it's a question of it supporting Clasp. d-:
2017-04-11T03:44:25Z shrdlu69: I guess as soon as an implementation has support for sockets it will be added to usocket.
2017-04-11T03:44:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I think cl-async uses cffi for all its socket handling
2017-04-11T03:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, it could be used even on implementations without socket support
2017-04-11T03:45:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: As long as CFFI runs on them
2017-04-11T03:45:19Z aeth: CFFI might run on fewer implementations than usocket
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2017-04-11T03:45:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: ABCL, Allegro CL, Corman CL, CLISP, CMUCL, Digitool MCL, ECL, LispWorks, Clozure CL, SBCL, MKCL and the Scieneer CL;
2017-04-11T03:45:59Z aeth: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/3563ccc32caa356dab7d9e47086cda318b887625/cffi.asd#L46-L57
2017-04-11T03:46:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's actually better supported
2017-04-11T03:47:12Z aeth: Yes because (> 12 10)
2017-04-11T03:47:14Z aeth: (barely)
2017-04-11T03:47:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/issues/162
2017-04-11T03:47:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: and clasp support is on the way
2017-04-11T03:48:24Z shrdlu69: So between cl-async ans usocket, there's support for sockets for practically all implentations.
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2017-04-11T04:09:27Z jasom: basic-binary-ipc should work on all *nix with BSD compatible sockets and windows on any lisp with cffi as well
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2017-04-11T05:37:31Z flip214: clhs 12.1.1.1
2017-04-11T05:37:31Z specbot: Associativity and Commutativity in Numeric Operations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aaa.htm
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2017-04-11T07:51:36Z flip214: easye: was that the start of abcl?   http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3114679241611162@naggum.no.html
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2017-04-11T08:22:00Z Jonsky: https://pastebin.com/Q7Un37s1
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2017-04-11T08:22:34Z Jonsky: I played with SB-THREAD a bit and wanted to get the result but I couldn't.
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2017-04-11T08:23:17Z Jonsky: I still cannot get all the threads working after putting in the mutex.
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2017-04-11T08:25:50Z flip214: Jonsky: what's the problem that you see? threads hanging?
2017-04-11T08:26:06Z flip214: wrong *sum*?
2017-04-11T08:26:22Z Jonsky: wrong sum
2017-04-11T08:26:38Z Jonsky: sometimes it works, sometimes doesn't
2017-04-11T08:26:56Z Jonsky: and when it doesn't work, the sum is always 24.
2017-04-11T08:27:03Z Jonsky: so weird
2017-04-11T08:28:00Z flip214: I always get 37
2017-04-11T08:28:45Z flip214: which sbcl version do you use?
2017-04-11T08:28:58Z Jonsky: super weird. I use bordeaux-thread first and got that problem. and then I switched to sb-thread to see it things get better and still I get this weird thing.
2017-04-11T08:29:10Z flip214: what sbcl, what platform?
2017-04-11T08:29:19Z Jonsky: 1.3.13
2017-04-11T08:29:33Z Jonsky: on osx yosemite
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2017-04-11T08:31:02Z flip214: hmmm, SBCL 1.3.14.debian does that fine
2017-04-11T08:31:34Z Jonsky: 5 sec ago something even more weird thing happened.
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2017-04-11T08:32:16Z Jonsky: it gave me 50. so thd2 from the last time was "carried" over to this calculation.
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2017-04-11T08:33:38Z afidegnum: what's the difference between sbcl and asdf  ? can they be used together?
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2017-04-11T08:33:49Z phoe_: afidegnum: yes
2017-04-11T08:33:52Z phoe_: SBCL is an implementation
2017-04-11T08:33:56Z phoe_: ASDF is a Lisp program
2017-04-11T08:34:09Z phoe_: so you can run ASDF on SBCL.
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2017-04-11T08:35:13Z afidegnum: ah, ok
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2017-04-11T08:39:00Z Jonsky: btw, do you people find reading the debugger in slime a bit difficult? it has a lot of swank stuff there and as a n00b I don't know how to read the backtrace.
2017-04-11T08:40:01Z flip214: Jonsky: seems that your join-thread is broken.
2017-04-11T08:41:25Z jdz: Jonsky: ignore the swank stuff -- if you're not working on Swank itself the error most likely is not is Swank.
2017-04-11T08:42:52Z Jonsky: flip214: seems so. And I asked it to print all the threads after the 3 join-thread. Then suddenly everything is fine. I don't understand ...
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2017-04-11T08:44:28Z Jonsky: jdz: thanks. It's just that everyone says the backtrace is so useful and I just hit abort every time I am in the debugger. A bit ashamed of myself.
2017-04-11T08:45:34Z jdz: Jonsky: if you know what the problem is, then it's OK.  But if you don't then you can look at the stack frames and figure it out.
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2017-04-11T08:46:19Z jdz: Jonsky: and if you have compiled your code with high enough debug settings you can even restart some frames.
2017-04-11T08:47:40Z Jonsky: btw, any different between abort and quit in the debugger?
2017-04-11T08:47:52Z jdz: Jonsky: e.g., if you have function that you know is problematic you can compile it with C-u C-c C-c in Slime -- the prefix argument tells Slime to use high debug quality.
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2017-04-11T08:50:59Z Jonsky: jdz: that's really cool!
2017-04-11T08:52:00Z jdz: Jonsky: of course you can (if you want) to compile *everything* using (DEBUG 3) while developing.
2017-04-11T08:52:12Z jdz: At least on SBCL.
2017-04-11T08:52:37Z jdz: Just delete your cached fasls, and do (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 1) after starting SBCL.
2017-04-11T08:52:44Z jdz: I mean 3 instead of 1.
2017-04-11T08:55:01Z Jonsky: does the (proclaim (safety 3)) work? (I vaguely remember the syntax)
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2017-04-11T08:56:29Z jdz: It works until it's overriden, and library authors have a tendency to use (SPEED 3) (SAFETY 0).
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2017-04-11T08:57:41Z Jonsky: so (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 1) has the highest priority?
2017-04-11T08:57:55Z jdz: No, use 3 instead of 1.
2017-04-11T08:58:19Z jdz: I copy/pasted that from my initfile.
2017-04-11T08:58:46Z Jonsky: oh sorry I meant 3 as well.
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2017-04-11T09:07:41Z Jonsky: flip214: I think I know what happened. join-thread wasn't broken. I just assumed the returned value is the value of *sum*. But actually it was the returned value of one of the threads. *sum* is right all the time.
2017-04-11T09:09:38Z flip214: Jonsky: ah, right.
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2017-04-11T09:09:50Z flip214: I thought you're looking at *sum* all the time; sorry about that.
2017-04-11T09:10:06Z Jonsky: And I just removed the mutex. It broke as expected. Really need that mutex to deal with a common resource. lisp-koan was a bit misleading.
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2017-04-11T09:18:17Z flip214: hmmm, too late to tell about atomic-incf.
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2017-04-11T11:27:34Z phoe: wow
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2017-04-11T11:27:44Z phoe: I read the code I wrote a few months ago after a long pause
2017-04-11T11:27:57Z phoe: and I actually understand what's going on inside it after just a few minutes of poking around
2017-04-11T11:28:54Z jdz: phoe: impressive!
2017-04-11T11:31:15Z phoe: jdz: I know, right?
2017-04-11T11:31:26Z phoe: it took me about seven refactors to reach this state of matters
2017-04-11T11:31:38Z phoe: and like, big refactors
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2017-04-11T12:01:46Z phoe: holy cow
2017-04-11T12:01:53Z phoe: I need a testcase management system
2017-04-11T12:03:02Z phoe: because I can no longer grasp the complexity inside my head and I decide that I only have a given piece of functionality if I have written tests for it
2017-04-11T12:04:54Z a7f4: reasonable )
2017-04-11T12:07:37Z phoe: a7f4: I read your response and my brain ended up in a debugger with unmatched close parenthesis
2017-04-11T12:07:45Z phoe: geez, too much lisp
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2017-04-11T12:15:24Z a7f4: phoe: (print "sorry :)")
2017-04-11T12:15:36Z phoe: a7f4: :P
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2017-04-11T12:24:28Z a7f4: phoe: (is-lisp-your-proffessional-lang-? 'phoe)
2017-04-11T12:24:38Z phoe: a7f4: xD
2017-04-11T12:24:44Z phoe: no, I'm writing Java for a living
2017-04-11T12:24:53Z phoe: but I do Lisp because I really enjoy it.
2017-04-11T12:25:23Z phoe: also I think I might be naturally bent towards documentation and specification because of the kind of work I do in the Lisp community, but nonetheless
2017-04-11T12:25:43Z phoe: good docs really make code much more understandable and the overall structure graspable.
2017-04-11T12:25:53Z phoe: good docs and good, well-defined protocols.
2017-04-11T12:25:55Z phoe: and test cases.
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2017-04-11T12:29:42Z a7f4: yep... yesterday i asked about docs for cl-random, no docs, no working tests (
2017-04-11T12:29:59Z phoe: ouch
2017-04-11T12:30:02Z phoe: this sucks
2017-04-11T12:30:18Z phoe: perhaps I'll be able to work on this as a part of CLUS in a few years
2017-04-11T12:30:34Z phoe: or maybe before it if I'm lucky/we're lucky
2017-04-11T12:31:13Z ebrasca: phoe: hi
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2017-04-11T12:31:59Z phoe: ebrasca: hey
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2017-04-11T12:35:32Z ebrasca: phoe: How are you doing?
2017-04-11T12:36:28Z phoe: ebrasca: alive and okay, you?
2017-04-11T12:37:09Z ebrasca: phoe: learning org-mode and alive. :)
2017-04-11T12:37:32Z phoe: ebrasca: good!
2017-04-11T12:38:23Z phoe: everyone: is there any kind of test management system written in Lisp?
2017-04-11T12:38:41Z phoe: like, an actual piece of software that, I guess, has a web browser frontend?
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2017-04-11T12:39:33Z phoe: and allows me to describe use cases/test cases and possibly retrieve them through HTTP or any other kind of (yuck) REST?
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2017-04-11T12:40:20Z ebrasca: phoe: Some meting?
2017-04-11T12:40:53Z phoe: ebrasca: None planned so far. I might plan one, but I'm not usre.
2017-04-11T12:40:54Z phoe: sure.
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2017-04-11T13:05:55Z a7f4: recently completed lisp-koans (https://github.com/google/lisp-koans), it was cool )
2017-04-11T13:06:04Z a7f4: now i'm making my way through Ninety-Nine Lisp Problems (https://github.com/a7f4/l-99)
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2017-04-11T13:09:06Z phoe: a7f4: good luck!
2017-04-11T13:09:13Z phoe: if you have any problems, fire them here or at #clnoobs.
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2017-04-11T13:10:11Z a7f4: phoe: thx for #clnoobs )
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2017-04-11T14:34:24Z phoe: What is the idiomatic (ASDF-idiomatic) way to iterate through directories?
2017-04-11T14:34:47Z phoe: something like (DO-ALL-DIRECTORIES (var base-directory) ...)
2017-04-11T14:35:24Z beach: All directories of your computer?
2017-04-11T14:35:28Z phoe: Nope.
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2017-04-11T14:35:41Z phoe: (do-all-directories (dir "/foo/bar/") ...)
2017-04-11T14:36:13Z phoe: I want DIR to become "/foo/bar/baz/", "/foo/bar/quux/", "/foo/bar/et/", ...
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2017-04-11T14:36:26Z phoe: Assuming that I have directories baz, quux, et, ... inside /foo/bar/.
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2017-04-11T14:37:37Z phoe: In other words.
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2017-04-11T14:37:45Z phoe: How do I get a list of all subdirectories of a directory?
2017-04-11T14:38:37Z phoe: clhs directory
2017-04-11T14:38:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm
2017-04-11T14:38:56Z beach: That one is highly implementation dependent.
2017-04-11T14:39:42Z phoe: (directory "/home/phoe/*/")
2017-04-11T14:39:58Z phoe: Works for me on one implementation, but correct, I'd prefer something that is more compatible.
2017-04-11T14:40:55Z phoe starts diving into UIOP's external symbols
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2017-04-11T14:42:57Z larsen: has
2017-04-11T14:43:09Z larsen: (sorry, wrong window)
2017-04-11T14:43:27Z Grue``: there's also CL-FAD
2017-04-11T14:44:55Z axion: Reminder: Lisp Game Jam is this weekend if you haven't registered yet and would like to participate. #lispgames for more info.
2017-04-11T14:45:48Z phoe: Grue``: sure, there is CL-FAD, but I'd prefer to use UIOP
2017-04-11T14:46:49Z axion: phoe: I have some code. Let me see if I can scrape it
2017-04-11T14:46:52Z phoe: UIOP:SUBDIRECTORIES
2017-04-11T14:46:54Z phoe: axion: no need to
2017-04-11T14:46:56Z phoe: there's a function.
2017-04-11T14:47:01Z Grue``: why not both
2017-04-11T14:47:20Z axion: phoe: True, but that will not work recursively if that's what you want.
2017-04-11T14:47:25Z phoe: axion: I don't want it.
2017-04-11T14:47:28Z axion: Ok :)
2017-04-11T14:47:35Z phoe: for this I have uiop:collect-sub*directories
2017-04-11T14:47:38Z phoe: which is much more general.
2017-04-11T14:47:41Z axion: Perfect
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2017-04-11T14:48:17Z phoe: minion: memo for Fare: thank you for UIOP:SUBDIRECTORIES
2017-04-11T14:48:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-04-11T14:49:19Z Grue``: is there a function to list directories and files?
2017-04-11T14:49:33Z Grue``: like cl-fad:list-directory
2017-04-11T14:50:37Z phoe: Grue``: there is DIRECTORY
2017-04-11T14:50:41Z phoe: which is very implementation-dependent
2017-04-11T14:50:44Z phoe: as for ASDF, let me check...
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2017-04-11T14:52:03Z phoe: I can see nothing better than CL:DIRECTORY
2017-04-11T14:52:45Z phoe: (directory "/foo/bar/*")
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2017-04-11T15:00:31Z phoe: How do I resize a PNG image in Common Lisp?
2017-04-11T15:01:34Z Bicyclidine: resize how?
2017-04-11T15:02:32Z phoe: Bicyclidine: I want to shrink images to 200x200 if they are bigger than that.
2017-04-11T15:02:50Z phoe: Except in CL, not by calling imagemagick.
2017-04-11T15:03:01Z Bicyclidine: well i mean, there's more than one way to do it
2017-04-11T15:03:17Z Bicyclidine: i don't think there are any libraries that do it, for a start, it'd probably be something you write yourself in terms of opticl
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2017-04-11T15:04:18Z phoe: https://github.com/slyrus/opticl/blob/f072cc8583e0a4f9e04f27de5032e08420473fb9/transform.lisp
2017-04-11T15:04:28Z phoe: Thanks for hinting me towards OPTICL.
2017-04-11T15:04:51Z Bicyclidine: happy day
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2017-04-11T15:10:43Z beach: Bicyclidine: Are you in Brussels?
2017-04-11T15:11:44Z axion: phoe: There is imago
2017-04-11T15:12:20Z Bicyclidine: beach: i just got on thalys
2017-04-11T15:12:40Z phoe: axion: oh, I see
2017-04-11T15:12:49Z beach: Bicyclidine: Ah, OK.  Right, they have wifi.
2017-04-11T15:12:52Z Bicyclidine: (free wifi, booyeah)
2017-04-11T15:13:03Z phoe: well, I only need one way to do it - thanks for letting me know though!
2017-04-11T15:14:03Z axion: phoe: If performance matters, png-read is absolutely horrible (which opticl uses)
2017-04-11T15:15:01Z phoe: axion: thanks.
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2017-04-11T15:19:25Z phoe: How can I adjust indentation in Emacs's lisp mode?
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2017-04-11T15:19:46Z phoe: What I get:
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2017-04-11T15:20:18Z jackdaniel: phoe: -> #emacs
2017-04-11T15:20:39Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344066
2017-04-11T15:20:42Z phoe: jackdaniel: okay, thanks.
2017-04-11T15:24:27Z loke___: phoe: what does your macro definition look lilke?
2017-04-11T15:24:54Z phoe: loke___: already answered, thanks.
2017-04-11T15:25:07Z phoe: tl;dr I cannot so what I want here.
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2017-04-11T15:31:27Z beach: What are you working on, phoe?
2017-04-11T15:31:51Z phoe: beach: Common Lisp Test Management System™.
2017-04-11T15:32:05Z beach: And what does such a thing do?
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2017-04-11T15:32:09Z phoe: Because when I have 15 unfinished projects, it means that I need to start another one.
2017-04-11T15:32:21Z beach: Yes, I know that phenomenon. :)
2017-04-11T15:32:32Z phoe: Just a small thing to organize use cases/test cases for other projects.
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2017-04-11T15:32:51Z phoe: Use cases and protocols.
2017-04-11T15:33:00Z phoe: And therefore documentation.
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2017-04-11T15:40:17Z phoe: A question about (generic) functions.
2017-04-11T15:40:28Z phoe: There is DEFVAR which, if the variable is already bound, does not reset its value.
2017-04-11T15:40:37Z phoe: Is there a mechanism present for (generic) functions somewhere?
2017-04-11T15:40:48Z phoe: It's pretty simple to write it myself, but I don't want to give in to that temptation.
2017-04-11T15:41:09Z Bicyclidine: you mean you only want to redefine the generic function if it isn't already fbound?
2017-04-11T15:41:21Z phoe: Yes. In other words, I want to define, but not to redefine.
2017-04-11T15:42:19Z Grue``: you probably don't want this
2017-04-11T15:42:21Z Bicyclidine: i don't think that exists, but it's easy to write with fboundp, depending on how much of defvar you want
2017-04-11T15:42:30Z phoe: Grue``: oh yes I do
2017-04-11T15:43:10Z gargaml: hi
2017-04-11T15:43:31Z phoe: Bicyclidine: yes, I know it's trivial to write that, WHEN both FBOUNDP and TYPEP x GENERIC-FUNCTION.
2017-04-11T15:43:37Z Bicyclidine: defgeneric doesn't have to have any compile time side effects, so that's probably fine
2017-04-11T15:43:48Z gargaml: I'm trying to use cl-lex but the generated code doesn't seem right
2017-04-11T15:43:51Z Bicyclidine: effects that it might have anyway could probably be covered by a declaim...
2017-04-11T15:44:04Z gargaml: some code here, http://paste.lisp.org/display/344067
2017-04-11T15:44:17Z phoe: Bicyclidine: basically, defgeneric has a side effect when you redefine things
2017-04-11T15:44:27Z phoe: (defgeneric foo (bar baz)) (defgeneric foo (quux et))
2017-04-11T15:44:32Z Bicyclidine: compile time
2017-04-11T15:44:34Z phoe: the variable names change.
2017-04-11T15:44:58Z gargaml: the error I get is related to (let ((nil nil)) ...) but I don't know why
2017-04-11T15:45:03Z phoe: I want a version of defgeneric where the variable names stay the way they were.
2017-04-11T15:45:07Z phoe: gargaml: ouch, let me see
2017-04-11T15:46:07Z phoe: ...calling this code works for me
2017-04-11T15:46:10Z phoe: I get NIL as a result
2017-04-11T15:46:39Z phoe: I mean, no error for me
2017-04-11T15:47:52Z gargaml: phoe: this is the exact error I get http://paste.lisp.org/display/344068
2017-04-11T15:48:11Z gargaml: but it may be related to my environment if it works for you
2017-04-11T15:48:25Z gargaml: I'm using sbcl and the version available in quicklisp
2017-04-11T15:49:27Z phoe: gargaml: what is your SBCL version?
2017-04-11T15:49:40Z loke___ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-04-11T15:50:07Z gargaml: 1.3.14 from debian repositories
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2017-04-11T15:56:14Z phoe: weird
2017-04-11T15:56:17Z phoe: there's no error for me
2017-04-11T15:56:23Z phoe: try doing this on a fresh Lisp image
2017-04-11T15:56:31Z phoe: just quickload cl-lex and run this coe
2017-04-11T15:56:41Z phoe: also, weird thing
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2017-04-11T15:57:04Z phoe: DEFGENERIC does not change its variable names if it is not a top-level form
2017-04-11T15:57:24Z Bicyclidine: it's probably a compile time side effect
2017-04-11T15:57:34Z Bicyclidine: (specific to your implementation)
2017-04-11T15:58:04Z Bicyclidine: introspection stuff like that is often underdefined tho
2017-04-11T15:58:24Z phoe: ...no, wait
2017-04-11T15:58:27Z phoe: I screwed my code up
2017-04-11T15:58:31Z phoe: it does it.
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2017-04-11T16:01:33Z gargaml: phoe: I keep getting the error on a fresh image, I'll try to update a few things to check
2017-04-11T16:03:20Z phoe: gargaml: strange and weird
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2017-04-11T16:05:53Z Bicyclidine: are you using that exact code?
2017-04-11T16:06:15Z gargaml: yes, directly in the repl
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2017-04-11T16:18:58Z gargaml: phoe: ok so the problem comes from my environment (don't know yet where exactly)
2017-04-11T16:19:06Z gargaml: in sbcl (without slime) it works
2017-04-11T16:19:20Z gargaml: it returns nil
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2017-04-11T16:20:48Z phoe: haha
2017-04-11T16:20:50Z phoe: weird.
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2017-04-11T16:27:16Z gargaml: and the fact that we need to use return to actually get the token is due to the use of nested block?
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2017-04-11T17:01:55Z phoe: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344073
2017-04-11T17:01:59Z phoe: I ended up with this working so far.
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2017-04-11T17:03:34Z phoe: actually, http://paste.lisp.org/display/344073#1
2017-04-11T17:04:56Z phoe: The upper form automatically defines the class and sets the documentation, and creates all the generic functions with their documentations as well.
2017-04-11T17:05:18Z phoe: So in this case it's class FIST with generics SQUEEZE, UNSQUEEZE, WIGGLEP.
2017-04-11T17:05:40Z phoe: And the two bottom forms don't do anything, they simply push data into a list.
2017-04-11T17:05:50Z phoe: Both of these are smart enough not to do unnecessary redefinitions.
2017-04-11T17:08:40Z phoe: In the future, I plan on making this smarter - if a protocol class has other (mixin) protocol classes as its superclasses, I want to show the respective methods for the superprotocols as well.
2017-04-11T17:09:01Z phoe: So if this KILLABLE protocol has a method (defgeneric kill (object)), it will show up on the list as well.
2017-04-11T17:09:12Z phoe: I mean, when I display all of this information.
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2017-04-11T17:23:26Z ebrasca: phoe: I am practicing with L-99: Ninety-Nine Lisp Problems. It is fun but some probles are hard.
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2017-04-11T18:08:20Z pjb: ebrasca: ask about l-99 in #clnoobs ;-)
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2017-04-11T18:12:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: Anyone here used the 'deeds' library? https://shinmera.github.io/deeds/ I'm trying to run the tutorial examples, but I can't get any of the handlers to run when I make a call to (deeds:do-issue ...). I just get an object returned.
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2017-04-11T18:14:49Z flip214: clhs bitand
2017-04-11T18:14:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for bitand.
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2017-04-11T18:20:38Z ebrasca: pjb: ok
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2017-04-11T18:30:00Z pjb: clhs bit-and
2017-04-11T18:30:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_bt_and.htm
2017-04-11T18:30:02Z pjb: clhs logand
2017-04-11T18:30:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
2017-04-11T18:30:14Z pjb:  CL standard logic…
2017-04-11T18:30:48Z pjb: clhs boole-and
2017-04-11T18:30:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_b_1_b.htm
2017-04-11T18:31:02Z pjb: booles are under-utilised :-(
2017-04-11T18:31:49Z pjb: (boole boole-and #b1100 #b1010) #| --> 8 |#
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2017-04-11T18:49:20Z Josh_2: Why give boole a binary when it treats integers like binary numbers
2017-04-11T18:50:10Z White_Flame: #b is an integer
2017-04-11T18:50:23Z White_Flame: same as in default decimal format
2017-04-11T18:50:44Z White_Flame: #* defines bit vectors, iirc
2017-04-11T18:51:13Z Josh_2: okay, why use boole with bit vectors :P boole takes nice human readable numbers
2017-04-11T18:51:31Z White_Flame: you don't think #b1100 is a nice readable human number? :)
2017-04-11T18:51:35Z Josh_2: (boole boole-and -2 5) =>  4
2017-04-11T18:53:32Z White_Flame: boole doesn't accept bit vectors, that would be a type error
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2017-04-11T18:55:56Z Josh_2: I don't think I can ree autisticly enough.
2017-04-11T18:56:51Z borei: hi all
2017-04-11T18:57:15Z Josh_2: Aftermoorning
2017-04-11T18:57:16Z phoe: borei: hey
2017-04-11T18:57:40Z borei: can somebody help me with understanding of defun in regards to setf
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2017-04-11T18:57:54Z borei: im following http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html
2017-04-11T18:58:07Z borei: sorry - http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-classes.html
2017-04-11T18:58:24Z phoe: DEFUN in regards to SETF?
2017-04-11T18:58:26Z borei: but it's confusing
2017-04-11T18:58:27Z phoe: what do you mean?
2017-04-11T18:58:46Z phoe: oooh.
2017-04-11T18:58:48Z borei: yeah (defun (setf customer-name) (name account) ....
2017-04-11T18:58:52Z phoe: (defun (setf foo) ...)
2017-04-11T18:59:01Z phoe: basically, functions in Lisp can have two kinds of names.
2017-04-11T18:59:04Z borei: (setf customer-name) - this part is cofusing
2017-04-11T18:59:11Z phoe: they can be #'FOO or they can be #'(SETF FOO).
2017-04-11T18:59:20Z phoe: when you (defun (setf foo) (...) ...)
2017-04-11T18:59:33Z phoe: you are defining the function that gets called when you call (setf (foo ...) ...)
2017-04-11T19:00:48Z borei: but there is slot name ???
2017-04-11T19:00:57Z phoe: forget about slot names for now
2017-04-11T19:01:02Z phoe: forget about objects altogether
2017-04-11T19:01:14Z phoe: all that you do is, you define the function that gets called when you call (setf (foo ...) ...)
2017-04-11T19:02:00Z phoe: this is the meaning of (defun (setf foo) (...) ...)
2017-04-11T19:02:14Z phoe: so, basically, a trivial example:
2017-04-11T19:02:24Z phoe: (defvar *variable* nil)
2017-04-11T19:02:41Z phoe: (defun variable-accessor () *variable*)
2017-04-11T19:02:55Z pjb: phoe: the name of the function is either FOO or (SETF FOO); #'FOO is not the name of anything!  It's a special-form that when evaluted, returns the function named FOO (in the current environment).
2017-04-11T19:02:58Z phoe: (defun (setf variable-accessor) (new-value) (setf *variable* new-value))
2017-04-11T19:03:02Z phoe: pjb: skjdhsdf, yes, sorry
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2017-04-11T19:03:43Z phoe: but, these three lines - they are pretty trivial, but should illustrate the idea
2017-04-11T19:04:02Z pjb: borei: More precisely, (setf (foo arguments…) new-value)  is translated to (funcall (function (setf foo)) new-value arguments…)
2017-04-11T19:04:52Z pjb: You can rename the first parameter new-name instead of name, to make it clear: (defun (setf customer-name) (new-name account) ....)
2017-04-11T19:05:29Z pjb: So now, we can write (setf (customer-name account) new-name) to set a new customer name to the account.
2017-04-11T19:06:13Z borei: need to digest, i see logic
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2017-04-11T20:20:14Z adamvh: do any of y'all know of a library that wraps CL hash tables in something like clojure's map syntax?
2017-04-11T20:20:57Z phoe: adamvh: what do you mean, syntax?
2017-04-11T20:21:21Z phoe: you mean a way of printing them like { foo: bar, baz: quux } ?
2017-04-11T20:21:42Z adamvh: yes, although my interest is in initializing them more so than printing them
2017-04-11T20:21:43Z dschoepe: adamvh: You can take a look at FSet for immutable maps. You can also extend packages like let-plus to add support for destructuring them easily
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2017-04-11T20:22:14Z dschoepe: You don't get special syntax but writing (map ('a 5) ('b 6)) instead of {'a 5 'b 6} isn't a big deal, I would say
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2017-04-11T20:23:04Z Bicyclidine: you can do special syntax fairly easily.
2017-04-11T20:23:27Z prxq: adamvh: alexandria has functions to convert to / from alists. It effectively provides a syntax functionally equivalent to what phoe showed.
2017-04-11T20:24:13Z adamvh: hmm, yeah, i guess alexandria mapping from alist to hash table is probably sufficient
2017-04-11T20:24:36Z White_Flame: it does plists too, which are a little easier to type literals
2017-04-11T20:25:01Z Bicyclidine: something like (set-macro-character #\{ (lambda (str char) (loop with result = (make-hash-table) loop for (k v) on (read-delimited-list #\} str) by #'cddr do (setf (gethash k result) v) finally (return result)))) i think
2017-04-11T20:25:21Z Bicyclidine: probably something longer for error checking and all
2017-04-11T20:26:18Z phoe: yes, what Bicyclidine said
2017-04-11T20:26:33Z phoe: also, you can define a print method for hashtables, so they print in the same way
2017-04-11T20:26:51Z phoe: so your hashtables become print-readable
2017-04-11T20:27:09Z phoe: oh!
2017-04-11T20:27:09Z phoe: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2017-04-11T20:27:14Z phoe: this has the code for hashtables
2017-04-11T20:27:27Z phoe: ...actually wait, it's for JSON
2017-04-11T20:29:15Z phoe: might be adaptable though
2017-04-11T20:29:36Z phoe: or you can simply steal the json object syntax and initialize your hashtables like that
2017-04-11T20:29:42Z joga squints after thinking he read ISDN somewhere
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2017-04-11T21:06:42Z phoe: clhs bit-and
2017-04-11T21:06:42Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_bt_and.htm
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2017-04-11T21:19:32Z shrdlu68: Is the information about ECL here up to date? https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/
2017-04-11T21:20:13Z shrdlu68: Is ECL 16.1.3 the latest?
2017-04-11T21:20:55Z phoe: yes, it seems so
2017-04-11T21:21:29Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: yes
2017-04-11T21:21:51Z jackdaniel: develop branch has some major improvements, but not ready for next release yet
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2017-04-11T21:24:30Z shrdlu68: Ok.
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2017-04-11T23:11:08Z pillton: You'd think that a compiler macro would be defined simultaneously with the function to ensure that the form generated by the compiler macro evaluates argument forms in the same order as a function application.
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2017-04-11T23:26:04Z shrdlu68: (type-of (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))
2017-04-11T23:26:29Z shrdlu68: => (SIMPLE-ARRAY EXT:BYTE8 (10))
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2017-04-11T23:26:52Z shrdlu68: What is this? Where's my uint8 vector?
2017-04-11T23:27:02Z shrdlu68: In ECL.
2017-04-11T23:27:10Z pillton: (subtypep 'ext:byte8 '(unsigned-byte 8)) ?
2017-04-11T23:28:30Z shrdlu68: T
2017-04-11T23:28:49Z pillton: Arrays in common lisp are weird.
2017-04-11T23:28:56Z _death: (subtypep '(unsigned-byte 8) 'ext:byte8) ?
2017-04-11T23:29:14Z pillton: The actual element type of the array returned is determined by upgraded-array-element-type.
2017-04-11T23:29:20Z shrdlu68: T
2017-04-11T23:29:41Z shrdlu68: What do I do to prevent getting run-time errors?
2017-04-11T23:30:02Z shrdlu68: My code defined an octet type and an octet vector.
2017-04-11T23:30:07Z pillton: (setf (aref array 0) (ensure-uint8 v)).
2017-04-11T23:30:19Z shrdlu68: And so does fast-io.
2017-04-11T23:30:38Z shrdlu68: It worked perfectly on SBCL.
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2017-04-11T23:31:04Z pillton: The following will run without error on some implementations (let ((v (make-array 10 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)))) (setf (aref v 0) "hello"))
2017-04-11T23:31:37Z shrdlu68: That's...a crime.
2017-04-11T23:31:54Z pillton: Depends on your point of view.
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2017-04-11T23:32:35Z pillton: You just have to remember that there is a difference between declaration and representation.
2017-04-11T23:33:33Z shrdlu68: Shouldn't it be at least smart enough to avoid this kind of situation?
2017-04-11T23:34:20Z pillton: Some compilers are.
2017-04-11T23:34:57Z pillton: otherwise clhs 1.4.4.3
2017-04-11T23:35:00Z pillton: clhs 1.4.4.3
2017-04-11T23:35:01Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2017-04-11T23:35:09Z pillton: "Except as explicitly specified otherwise, the consequences are undefined if these type restrictions are violated."
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2017-04-11T23:36:46Z pillton: Which is rather disappointing.
2017-04-11T23:37:21Z shrdlu68: So writing ANSI CL code is not enough to run on every ANSI CL implementation.
2017-04-11T23:37:51Z shrdlu68: Does this apply to all types? I'm not even sure I understand what's going on.
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2017-04-11T23:38:09Z black_13: and users of ecl and the c api
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2017-04-11T23:39:36Z pillton: Consider this (make-array 10 :element-type '(or integer float standard-object)).
2017-04-11T23:39:51Z pillton: What class/kind of array should the implementation return?
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2017-04-11T23:40:37Z shrdlu68: No idea.
2017-04-11T23:41:22Z pillton: Considering (aref v 0) is a place then the place has to be capable of storing objects of type (or integer float standard-object).
2017-04-11T23:41:55Z shrdlu68: okay...
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2017-04-11T23:43:07Z shrdlu68: But what about :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
2017-04-11T23:43:17Z shrdlu68: That's very specific.
2017-04-11T23:43:43Z White_Flame: '(or (unsigned-byte 8) float) is also specific
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2017-04-11T23:49:10Z adlai: shrdlu68: i may be language lawyering here, but i'd say that "writing ANSY CL code" by definition means that you've tested it on every implementation at your disposal
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2017-04-11T23:49:55Z adlai: otherwise you're writing #+(or :ccl :sbcl :etc), same as you wouldn't say "python" without qualifying the version
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2017-04-11T23:55:21Z pillton: shrdlu68: The point is that the implementation chooses what objects can be stored in an array.
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2017-04-12T00:00:02Z jasom: shrdthe ANSI standard does *not*require any particular behavior for that code.
2017-04-12T00:00:39Z pillton has a meeting now. I'll be back later.
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2017-04-12T03:02:39Z pillton: shrdlu68: Clear now?
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2017-04-12T04:21:25Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-12T04:48:40Z jackdaniel: o/
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2017-04-12T04:50:29Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. :)
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2017-04-12T04:56:14Z jack_rabbit: Is there a way to access a superclass' implementation for a generic method? I just want to *append* some code to an existing method.
2017-04-12T04:56:46Z beach: clhs call-next-method
2017-04-12T04:56:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm
2017-04-12T04:57:12Z beach: jack_rabbit: 1. There is no such thing as a "generic method"
2017-04-12T04:57:19Z jackdaniel: jack_rabbit: you may also add :after method
2017-04-12T04:57:24Z beach: jack_rabbit: 2. You may want to use a different method combination.
2017-04-12T04:57:51Z jack_rabbit: beach, sorry. I was basing that name off of the "defgeneric" macro name.
2017-04-12T04:58:05Z jack_rabbit: Guess it's a generic function instead.
2017-04-12T04:58:08Z beach: jack_rabbit: DEFGENERIC defines a generic function.
2017-04-12T04:58:37Z beach: jack_rabbit: You may want to use the PROGN method combination if you want all applicable methods to be run.
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2017-04-12T04:59:19Z jack_rabbit: I'm not sure exactly what that is. I need to do more reading.
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2017-04-12T05:00:30Z pillton: jack_rabbit: You have to remember that the class hierarchy is not the only variable which determines the order in which methods are executed.
2017-04-12T05:01:05Z jack_rabbit: right. I'm coming back to this after a long time away.
2017-04-12T05:01:08Z pillton: jack_rabbit: The generic function object has properties also. e.g. argument precedence order and method combination.
2017-04-12T05:02:22Z pillton: Welcome back.
2017-04-12T05:03:41Z jack_rabbit: thanks!
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2017-04-12T05:19:52Z PuercoPop: jack_rabbit: progn method combination executes the applicable methods in sequence (similar to wraping the forms in a progn). But it is likely that defining an :after or :around method is what you are looking for
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2017-04-12T05:23:49Z jack_rabbit: I think so. I'm reading about :after etc. now.
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2017-04-12T07:23:54Z shrdlu68: Good morning people. Can't find sources for Clozure CL 1.11 linux ppc. Is it supported?
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2017-04-12T07:24:54Z afidegnum: i thought lquery is the lisp version of jquery!
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2017-04-12T08:01:37Z afidegnum: is there a way to create a drop-down menu using lquery ?
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2017-04-12T08:09:17Z beach: afidegnum: You might have to ask Shinmera.  He hangs out in the #clasp channel.
2017-04-12T08:09:58Z afidegnum: ok,
2017-04-12T08:10:11Z afidegnum: good morning, how are you doing today?
2017-04-12T08:10:28Z beach: Me?  I am fine.  Thanks!
2017-04-12T08:10:50Z afidegnum: :)
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2017-04-12T10:05:49Z phoe: Hello everyone
2017-04-12T10:06:08Z presiden: hi o/
2017-04-12T10:06:25Z a7f4: phoe: hey
2017-04-12T10:07:31Z phoe: a7f4: hey
2017-04-12T10:07:34Z phoe: presiden: hey
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2017-04-12T10:25:06Z phoe: I might actually teach Lisp what protocols are and what it means for a class to participate in a protocol, to provide a bit of a runtime aid for programmers.
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2017-04-12T10:28:50Z phoe: #'DOCUMENTATION question.
2017-04-12T10:29:26Z phoe: If I set documentation of a function *before* defining that function, and if the DEFUN does not contain any docstrings, is the documentation always preserved?
2017-04-12T10:30:06Z phoe: If I (setf (documentation 'foo 'function) "asdfasdf") (defun foo () 3) in SBCL, the documentation I have SETFed before does not get erased.
2017-04-12T10:30:17Z phoe: But I need to know whether this is implementation-INdependent.
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2017-04-12T10:32:54Z loke: phoe: Not entirely clear, I'd say:
2017-04-12T10:32:54Z loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_dk.htm
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2017-04-12T10:34:33Z phoe: loke: it looks like the specification says nothing about this behaviour.
2017-04-12T10:35:33Z loke: I guess you could read it as the SBCL behaviour is correct:
2017-04-12T10:35:35Z loke: “Documentation is attached as a documentation string to name (as kind function) and to the function object.”
2017-04-12T10:35:52Z loke: Above it mentions that the documentation string is optional.
2017-04-12T10:37:28Z phoe: So if there is no docstring, then nothing is attached.
2017-04-12T10:37:42Z phoe: But also, what is important to me, it does not say explicitly that nothing is removed in that way.
2017-04-12T10:38:05Z loke: phoe: Seems like it's undefined.
2017-04-12T10:38:07Z phoe: Nothing is attached, fine, but this could be read as nothing is attached = NIL is attached = (setf (documentation foo bar) nil).
2017-04-12T10:38:19Z phoe: It's undefined, yes.
2017-04-12T10:38:44Z phoe: So I will hope that when no docstring is present, the current state of documentation is unmodified.
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2017-04-12T10:39:13Z loke: But does that mean that SBCL makes a difference with regards to how a docstring is set?
2017-04-12T10:39:27Z loke: I wouldn't expect FOO to have dosctringin this case:
2017-04-12T10:39:51Z loke: (defun FOO (x) "Add 1 to X" (1+ x)) followed by: (defun FOO (x) (+ 2 x))
2017-04-12T10:40:03Z loke: You really want the docstring to be cleared in that case.
2017-04-12T10:41:27Z phoe: loke: in this case, yes, it is cleared.
2017-04-12T10:42:32Z jackdaniel: I wouldn't put any statement which clarifies undefined behavior in any kind of reference except implementation-specific one
2017-04-12T10:42:33Z phoe: But it seems there is a difference.
2017-04-12T10:42:43Z jackdaniel: that could only confuse users what is conforming and what's not
2017-04-12T10:42:45Z loke: I just tested. It seems as though manually set docstrings override any function-supplied doscrtings in SBCL
2017-04-12T10:42:51Z phoe: The docstring gets cleared when REdefining a function but it is not cleared when DEfining a function.
2017-04-12T10:42:57Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/7Ly7KV9.png
2017-04-12T10:43:00Z phoe: loke: what did you test?
2017-04-12T10:43:04Z loke: If I set the dosctring using SETF, it completely ignores any docstring is set in the function header.
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2017-04-12T10:43:26Z loke: So redefining the function will keep the docstring that was set using STF
2017-04-12T10:43:27Z phoe: loke: oh. Interesting.
2017-04-12T10:43:27Z loke: SETF
2017-04-12T10:44:21Z loke: And I can't get rid of it. Even when trying SETF to NIL
2017-04-12T10:44:36Z phoe: wait, what
2017-04-12T10:44:50Z loke: Try it :-)
2017-04-12T10:45:06Z phoe: what the fuck
2017-04-12T10:45:17Z phoe: it is impossible to modify it once it's SETFed
2017-04-12T10:45:30Z loke: Yep
2017-04-12T10:46:29Z phoe: this smells of a friggin bug
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2017-04-12T10:47:17Z phoe flings it at #sbcl
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2017-04-12T11:08:09Z francogrex: hi
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2017-04-12T11:10:54Z presiden: hi o/
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2017-04-12T14:55:20Z phoe: minion: remind me in 4 hours: lisp game jam
2017-04-12T14:55:22Z minion: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together
2017-04-12T14:55:26Z phoe: ...
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2017-04-12T14:56:25Z phoe: I need to run now - can someone make a memo for minion to remind me about lisp game jam? pretty please and thank you in advance
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2017-04-12T14:58:37Z adlai: minion: memo for phoe: lisp game jam
2017-04-12T14:58:37Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell phoe when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-04-12T14:58:55Z adlai: it's not an alarm clock, though. you need to speak for the reminder to activate
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2017-04-12T15:33:02Z malice: Is there a possibility for method to have a different docstring than generic function?
2017-04-12T15:33:56Z _death: yes
2017-04-12T15:34:32Z malice: _death: how do I do that and how do I get the documentation?
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2017-04-12T15:35:41Z beach: clhs defmethod
2017-04-12T15:35:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmet.htm
2017-04-12T15:35:52Z _death: (defmethod foo () "docstring here" 'more-stuff) and use documentation with the result of find-method
2017-04-12T15:36:00Z beach: malice: You can include a docstring in your DEFMETHOD form.
2017-04-12T15:36:20Z malice: Great, thanks!
2017-04-12T15:36:37Z _death: in my example, (documentation (find-method #'foo '() '()) t)
2017-04-12T15:38:35Z Grue``: however when there is no docstring, it is not inherited from generic function
2017-04-12T15:39:29Z malice: I'm asking because I want to create a generic function, but methods can have a bit different ordering depending on the class.
2017-04-12T15:40:25Z _death: in general it's not useful to document methods, or have them do unexpected things given understanding of the generic function
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2017-04-12T15:42:07Z beach: malice: "different ordering"?
2017-04-12T15:43:31Z beach: malice: I agree with _death.  Different methods should not change the description of what the generic function does.
2017-04-12T15:44:05Z Zhivago: You should understand the generic-function to be a single function with coherent semantics.
2017-04-12T15:44:29Z Zhivago: The 'methods' are fragments that are assembled to implement that function.
2017-04-12T15:45:01Z Zhivago: Rather than the generic-function being a dispatch layer to distinct procedures.
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2017-04-12T16:04:39Z malice: Okay. Thanks guys.
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2017-04-12T16:07:28Z beach: In order to test my library for "concrete syntax trees", I want to use my favorite testing technique, namely random tests.  For that, I would like to characterize what a typical macro function does with its arguments.  I came up with this:
2017-04-12T16:07:29Z beach: A macro argument is typically either included somewhere in the expanded form, or (if the argument is a CONS) occasionally, its CAR and CDR are included but not the CONS itself.  The macro function will also add its own expressions to the expansions.  These will most often be atoms.  Does that sound right?
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2017-04-12T16:12:40Z _death: you could attempt to test this conjecture with a program
2017-04-12T16:13:04Z beach: I suppose I could.
2017-04-12T16:13:27Z beach: It is not *that* critical, though.  I just want to do something similar to what macros do.
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2017-04-12T16:26:33Z _death: it sounds plausible that arguments or parts of them will typically appear in expansions.. I guess the majority of other expressions will be atoms, but the amount of conses will also be high
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2017-04-12T16:29:53Z beach: _death: Thanks!
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2017-04-12T17:12:27Z gigamonkey: Hmmm. Building SBCL 1.3.16 on an oldish Mac (10.9.5) with the 1.1.6 binary distro and I get "fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 3079: no size function for object at 0x223c3070 (widetag 0x31)"
2017-04-12T17:13:11Z gigamonkey: Ah, just found this https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1678347
2017-04-12T17:14:01Z gigamonkey: Is that change not in the 1.3.16 source I downloaded?
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2017-04-12T17:31:11Z Xof: no, it'll be in 1.3.17
2017-04-12T17:31:55Z gigamonkey: Thanks. Got a pointer to the proper git repo over in #sbcl.
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2017-04-12T17:47:04Z Jonsky: Tried to follow Land of Lisp to make a simple server but it somehow didnt' work ...
2017-04-12T17:47:30Z Jonsky: I was using usocket's socket-server
2017-04-12T17:47:44Z Jonsky:  (socket-server #(127 0 0 1) 8090 (lambda (stream) (format stream "~A" "<html><body>hello</body></html>")))
2017-04-12T17:48:02Z Jonsky: I thought this is simple enough but it just doesn't work...
2017-04-12T17:49:06Z Grue``: you need more than that to create a http server
2017-04-12T17:50:04Z Jonsky: tried to add (format stream "~A" "HTTP/1.1 200 OK")
2017-04-12T17:50:11Z Jonsky: Still, doesn't work
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2017-04-12T17:51:11Z Walternate: you're gonna need to setup a listener that listens for requests on 8090
2017-04-12T17:51:14Z Grue``: the logic is quite complex actually, you need to accept browser's requests and respond to them appropriately
2017-04-12T17:51:16Z warweasle: Jonsky: You might look at "Land of Lisp". He creates a simple web server halfway through the book.
2017-04-12T17:51:22Z Walternate: then when you get a request, send the stream
2017-04-12T17:51:41Z warweasle: It's very limited, but it works.
2017-04-12T17:52:00Z Jonsky: warweasle: I was exactly following what he did
2017-04-12T17:52:08Z warweasle: Jonsky: DOH!
2017-04-12T17:52:14Z Walternate: what page are you on?
2017-04-12T17:52:15Z warweasle: Jonsky: Sorry.
2017-04-12T17:52:47Z Jonsky: The funny thing is
2017-04-12T17:53:01Z Jonsky: I tried firefox and Chrome.
2017-04-12T17:53:22Z _death: Jonsky: you need to have lines separated using #\Return #\Linefeed
2017-04-12T17:53:26Z Jonsky: Firefox sometimes works and give me exactly <html> ....
2017-04-12T17:53:49Z Jonsky: Chrome just tells me the connection is dropped .
2017-04-12T17:54:01Z Walternate: look at page 263, at the bottom, that shows the listener
2017-04-12T17:54:04Z Jonsky: Safari has no response.
2017-04-12T17:55:47Z Jonsky: _death: but I was just sending oneline of html. How come I still need to print #\return #\linefeed?
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2017-04-12T17:56:36Z Jonsky: Walternate: I looked at the code of usocket:socket-server. It's basically the same. I don't know why it doesn't work...
2017-04-12T17:57:27Z _death: Jonsky: what about the http response header
2017-04-12T17:59:13Z Jonsky: _death: ooops, I thought I could skip that, just like "Land of Lisp"
2017-04-12T18:00:05Z flip214: well, my most basic HTTP server is ( echo "200 HTTP/1.0" ; echo ; cat a_file ) | netcat -l 80
2017-04-12T18:00:40Z flip214: ah sorry, wrong way around. "HTTP/1.0 200 OK", to avoid any further headers...
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2017-04-12T18:01:54Z namosca: Hi all
2017-04-12T18:02:08Z shrdlu68: hello
2017-04-12T18:02:49Z namosca: I am reading the basics of lambda calculus and I wonder if there is a way of playing with it in Lisp, so I can get a hands on feeling with that... do you have anything to recommend for this? A tutorial or book for instance
2017-04-12T18:03:47Z _death: Jonsky: it's also a good idea to read a request before sending a response and terminating the connection
2017-04-12T18:05:57Z Walternate:  #\return #\linefeed is a signal that you are finished sending data
2017-04-12T18:06:16Z Jonsky: ah ha....
2017-04-12T18:06:23Z Jonsky: Lemme try a bit
2017-04-12T18:07:19Z pjb: namosca: yes, you can implement easily the rules of lambda calculus in lisp.
2017-04-12T18:08:57Z namosca: pjb: I actually would like to try something interactive, but what you said could also be something of value... is there any tutorial you recommend?
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2017-04-12T18:09:58Z pjb: namosca: just google for: lambda calculus common lisp
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2017-04-12T18:16:10Z Jonsky: hahahahahhaha, now it works!!!!!
2017-04-12T18:16:19Z Walternate: excellent
2017-04-12T18:16:22Z Jonsky: _death: THANK YOU!! THANK YOU so much!!
2017-04-12T18:16:27Z Jonsky: Walternate: THANK YOU TOO!!!
2017-04-12T18:16:53Z Jonsky: <strong>THANK YOU #LISP!! </strong>
2017-04-12T18:17:40Z Jonsky: (And somehow Safari still cannot understand my simple server...But at least I got Chrome and Firefox covered.)
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2017-04-12T18:19:15Z namosca: pjb: thanks
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2017-04-12T18:21:07Z Jonsky: Oh and I found that (format stream "~%~%") also does the trick somehow. I don't have to explicitly enter #\return #\linefeed
2017-04-12T18:22:34Z namosca: funny... I tried to type in ((lambda(x)(+ x 1))
2017-04-12T18:22:34Z namosca: 	  ((lambda(x)(+ x 2))
2017-04-12T18:22:34Z namosca: 	   2))
2017-04-12T18:22:34Z namosca: and I get what I want, but if i make a defparameter with the first lambda, naming it a, and do the same with the second and name it b, I expected that typing (A (B 2)) would give the same result, but it just crashes saying that b is undefined, but it works if I type (funcall a (funcall b 2))
2017-04-12T18:22:38Z mood: Most HTTP clients will be fairly lenient and accept linefeeds without carriage returns
2017-04-12T18:26:42Z Grue``: namosca: try flet/labels instead of defparameter
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2017-04-12T18:28:18Z Jonsky: mood: hmmm... so good to know and I just found that eww browser in emacs just displayed the html source without rendering it.
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2017-04-12T18:28:48Z namosca: Grue``: If I try with defun, I get: Required argument is not a symbol (x). With flet, I get "Malformed FLET definitions: a. With labels, I get also "Malformed LABELS definitions: a.
2017-04-12T18:29:15Z _death: Jonsky: you can add Content-Type: text/html
2017-04-12T18:29:31Z Grue``: otherwise, you can do something like (setf (symbol-function 'a) (lambda (x) (+ x 1))) ;; not recommended in production code
2017-04-12T18:30:22Z fouric: for the purposes of learning more about Lisp and computer architecture: does anyone in here have particular ideas for hardware acceleration of Lisps?
2017-04-12T18:30:36Z fouric: (the simple, obvious case being hardware support for tagged pointers)
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2017-04-12T18:31:28Z fouric: (or "if you had a wishlist for adding hardware or OS features to make Lisp development easier or implementations faster, what would be on it?")
2017-04-12T18:31:51Z mood: Jonsky: HTTP specifies that, when you don't specify a Content-Type, the client may attempt to guess what the format is. Browsers like Firefox and Chrome are fairly good at that, but eww probably doesn't even try and interprets it as a byte stream
2017-04-12T18:33:17Z namosca: Grue``: It worked with (setf (symbol-function 'a) ...)
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2017-04-12T18:34:40Z mood: Heh, eww is actually not HTTP compliant in that regard: When unspecified it treats the data as text/plain, instead of application/octet-stream
2017-04-12T18:34:48Z Jonsky: aha, I see. I should read a bit about http spec then. Thanks a lot and I feel so good now!
2017-04-12T18:37:29Z Grue``: namosca: sure it did because you copied my syntactically correct code. I'm sure if you write flet correctly it would work as well
2017-04-12T18:37:49Z Grue``: it's not a matter of luck...
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2017-04-12T18:39:25Z namosca: I tried (flet a (lambda(x) (+ x 1))) and what I get is: Malformed FLET definitions: A
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2017-04-12T18:40:38Z _death: clhs flet
2017-04-12T18:40:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2017-04-12T18:40:55Z mood: namosca: That's not how you use FLET. Try (flet ((a (x) (+ x 1))))
2017-04-12T18:41:34Z namosca: mood: oh, I got it... sorry
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2017-04-12T18:45:08Z beach: fouric: Current architectures are not bad at all for implementing Common Lisp.
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2017-04-12T18:48:01Z fouric: beach: it's less that i think that they're *bad*, and more that i'm interested in making them *better*, mostly for learning purposes
2017-04-12T18:48:42Z fouric: also, reading the SBCL man page, it appears that performance improvements could be made with respect to floating-point stuffs
2017-04-12T18:49:24Z fouric: "SBCL, like most (maybe all?) implementations of Common Lisp on stock hardware, has trouble passing floating point numbers  around  efficiently"
2017-04-12T18:49:43Z fouric: ^ implying that this is less a problem with SBCL and more with CL implementations in general
2017-04-12T18:49:48Z fouric: ("stock hardware")
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2017-04-12T18:50:40Z beach: Right, you typically can't pass a raw floating-point number as an argument to or a return value from a function.
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2017-04-12T18:51:25Z fouric: (because IEEE mandates 32-bit/64-bit fp formats...which also happen to be word sizes on 32-bit and 64-bit machines, which means no tag bits)
2017-04-12T18:51:28Z fouric: (right?)
2017-04-12T18:51:34Z beach: Right.
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2017-04-12T18:52:05Z beach: You could pass a 32-bit floating-point number in a tagged 64-bit word.
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2017-04-12T18:52:19Z beach: Store it in the upper half of the word.
2017-04-12T18:52:22Z foom: This is easily solved, by having specialized entry-points for functions that take raw data
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2017-04-12T18:52:31Z foom: Nobody's done that yet, though
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2017-04-12T18:52:56Z beach: Yes, there are a number of things that can be done to get around such restrictions.
2017-04-12T18:52:59Z fouric: forgive my ignorance, but i don't know if i understand precisely what "specialized entry-points" means
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2017-04-12T18:53:41Z foom: fouric: the calling convention currently requires that all arguments are lisp objects. You could imagine a function that's declared to take two doubles instead having a calling convention where both args need to be hardware doubles.
2017-04-12T18:54:45Z fouric: sounds like a sort of psuedo-static-typing
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2017-04-12T18:55:04Z fiveop: foom: compilers generate different entry points for functions in the the machine code they produce
2017-04-12T18:55:45Z fiveop: for example there might be one entry point that does type checking first, another that does not. The latter is used if the compiler can infere for a call  to that function that the types are in fact correct
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2017-04-12T18:56:05Z fiveop: (or it might used because the user declares safety 0 speed 3 (or something like that
2017-04-12T18:56:08Z fiveop: )
2017-04-12T18:56:20Z fiveop: +be
2017-04-12T18:56:24Z fiveop: )
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2017-04-12T18:57:45Z fouric: fiveop: multiple entry points for the same block of object code representing the body of the function?
2017-04-12T18:57:53Z fiveop: yes
2017-04-12T18:58:03Z fouric: that's clever
2017-04-12T18:58:32Z fiveop: if you are running sbcl and disassemble a function one of the first lines usually has a comment "; no-arg-parsing entry point"
2017-04-12T18:58:53Z fouric: ah, i see it!
2017-04-12T18:58:53Z fiveop: e.g. (defun foo (a &key (b 0)) (+ a b)) has a keyword argument
2017-04-12T18:59:23Z fouric: where "no-arg-parsing" means that types are...*not* checked?
2017-04-12T18:59:47Z fiveop: I would guess it has something to do with keyword arguments etc.
2017-04-12T18:59:57Z foom: Well, it'd be cleverer if was actually used for basically anything other than self-calls.
2017-04-12T19:00:18Z lmj: flip214: that problem with sb-ext:*derive-function-types* comes from an SBCL bug affecting bordeaux-threads. https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1289779
2017-04-12T19:00:45Z lmj: flip214: Non-toplevel DEFUN forms are magically processed and given wrong return types.
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2017-04-12T19:01:35Z foom: wow, that's an old bug
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2017-04-12T19:05:16Z lmj: flip214: tell _death it's not my fault :)
2017-04-12T19:07:03Z flip214: lmj: thanks for the information...
2017-04-12T19:07:23Z flip214: and I hoped to see more of my own problems with that setting -- I didn
2017-04-12T19:07:34Z flip214: didn't expect to fall over old bugs. thanks anyway!
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2017-04-12T19:24:44Z shka_: guys, did you seen quake running on mezzano?
2017-04-12T19:24:50Z shka_: this stuff is really awesome
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2017-04-12T19:29:50Z presiden: link?
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2017-04-12T19:35:07Z _death: lmj: I suspected it being an sbcl bug
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2017-04-12T19:39:04Z splittist: presiden: https://webmshare.com/AvNmG
2017-04-12T19:44:06Z presiden: splittist: nice :)
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2017-04-12T19:45:10Z lmj: flip214: I just posted to sbcl-devel about it. Not being able to use sb-ext:*derive-function-types* should suggest a higher priority, I think.
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2017-04-12T19:47:13Z flip214: lmj: thank you very much!
2017-04-12T19:47:37Z flip214: lmj: "someone on irc", ha!   ;)
2017-04-12T19:47:55Z lmj: flip214: I didn't know if you wanted to be mentioned; guess I could've asked
2017-04-12T19:48:01Z flip214: no problem.
2017-04-12T19:48:08Z flip214: but shouldn't the special be set before QL?
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2017-04-12T19:48:50Z lmj: flip214: that was the original test, then putting after worked too
2017-04-12T19:49:10Z flip214: okay.... never mind.
2017-04-12T19:49:39Z flip214: still got 60 pages to review, so not much time to discuss bike sheds right now ;)
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2017-04-12T19:59:38Z shka_: presiden: the way it works though
2017-04-12T19:59:54Z shka_: it is insane
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2017-04-12T20:11:23Z shrdlu68: Very impressive, mezzano.
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2017-04-12T20:20:59Z phoe: mezzano is the stuff I want to smoke from now on
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2017-04-12T20:22:16Z thorondor[m]: does anyone know about mezzano's author background? you really need talent and knowleadge to write something like that
2017-04-12T20:22:26Z phoe: thorondor[m]: you could ask froggey himself
2017-04-12T20:22:28Z Xach: I don't know about that, but determination and enthusiasm sure help.
2017-04-12T20:23:07Z thorondor[m]: it helps, but I don't thinks that's enough. I don't consider myself capable even with lots of enthusiasm
2017-04-12T20:23:26Z Xach: determination helps there. that's where you just chip away at what you don't know how to do.
2017-04-12T20:23:40Z shrdlu68: true
2017-04-12T20:23:43Z phoe: thorondor[m]: look at me
2017-04-12T20:23:49Z phoe: if I'm any sort of example
2017-04-12T20:23:59Z phoe: I just started complaining about how Lisp's documentation sucks
2017-04-12T20:24:12Z phoe: and I'm halfway through parsing the specification, currently taking a much needed break.
2017-04-12T20:24:42Z shrdlu68: phoe: The clhs sucks?
2017-04-12T20:24:57Z phoe: shrdlu68: I mean documentation in a more general manner
2017-04-12T20:25:06Z shrdlu68: Oh.
2017-04-12T20:25:26Z shrdlu68: silly me.
2017-04-12T20:25:26Z phoe: CLHS, and the standard, are amazing, and they have their downsides and errors at the same time
2017-04-12T20:25:54Z _death: maybe "sucks" could be understood in a more general manner.. sucks, adj. can be improved upon; example of use: "everything sucks"
2017-04-12T20:25:59Z phoe: ^
2017-04-12T20:26:09Z shrdlu68: This is amazing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk
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2017-04-12T20:26:41Z thorondor[m]: the thing with mezzano is that it emcompasses so many things, from hardware, low level programming, common lisp mastery (custom compiler), gui
2017-04-12T20:26:42Z thorondor[m]: hats off
2017-04-12T20:26:58Z shrdlu68: indeed.
2017-04-12T20:27:23Z phoe: shrdlu68: it is, except you no longer need ancient Ubuntu to run VLM/Genera
2017-04-12T20:27:34Z phoe: thorondor[m]: right, it's pretty amazing
2017-04-12T20:28:00Z thorondor[m]: one thing would be cool for it: a non-stop-the-world gc
2017-04-12T20:28:09Z thorondor[m]: the gc pauses the whole os
2017-04-12T20:29:05Z thorondor[m]: I've just built mezzano today, with no problems at all, and connect from slime from the outside, very nice
2017-04-12T20:29:50Z shrdlu68: It's possible to install it on bare metal, right?
2017-04-12T20:29:59Z shka_: thorondor[m]: it is possible
2017-04-12T20:30:02Z thorondor[m]: yes, I think so
2017-04-12T20:30:05Z shka_: just hard
2017-04-12T20:30:16Z thorondor[m]: how hard? what would it involve?
2017-04-12T20:30:38Z shka_: well, low level transactional sync barriers
2017-04-12T20:30:49Z shka_: on system page level
2017-04-12T20:31:02Z phoe: thorondor[m]: it is possible, yes.
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2017-04-12T20:31:24Z thorondor[m]: ahap
2017-04-12T20:31:26Z shka_: and good GC on top of that
2017-04-12T20:31:45Z shka_: but in fact i have no clue how mezzano works underneath
2017-04-12T20:31:56Z phoe: 1. Run OS
2017-04-12T20:32:00Z phoe: 2. Lisp and magic
2017-04-12T20:32:01Z phoe: 3. ???
2017-04-12T20:32:03Z phoe: 4. Quake
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2017-04-12T20:32:21Z shka_: phoe: more like: does it uses any memory protection
2017-04-12T20:32:34Z shka_: or just relies on lack of pointers
2017-04-12T20:32:58Z shka_: quake is written c so it does pointer arithmetic and stuff
2017-04-12T20:33:04Z shrdlu68: How close is it to a full-fledged, perfectly usable OS?
2017-04-12T20:33:29Z shrdlu68: I'd ditch GNU+Linux for Mezzano.
2017-04-12T20:33:44Z shka_: so perhaps mezzano has some sort of isolated memory pool for quake
2017-04-12T20:33:50Z shka_: or something
2017-04-12T20:34:07Z thorondor[m]: I think it is a bit far yet. how about multi-users, permissions, full hardware support, etc
2017-04-12T20:34:38Z thorondor[m]: I don't think you would have the luxury of ditching linux
2017-04-12T20:34:41Z thorondor[m]: maybe for something embedded, though
2017-04-12T20:34:46Z shka_: honestly, this stuff is potentially so different from unix that it may very well fill like different world all together
2017-04-12T20:35:17Z thorondor[m]: yes
2017-04-12T20:35:25Z shrdlu68: I'm wondering how much work the author actually does in CL.
2017-04-12T20:35:41Z shka_: shrdlu68: it is written in cl
2017-04-12T20:35:50Z shka_: you need sbcl to bootstrap
2017-04-12T20:36:22Z shrdlu68: So all that stuff: multiusers, permissions, is to be done in cl
2017-04-12T20:36:43Z shka_: well, anyway
2017-04-12T20:36:49Z thorondor[m]: the author wrote absolutly everything in cl I think
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2017-04-12T20:36:57Z shrdlu68: That sounds like a lot of fun.
2017-04-12T20:37:04Z shka_: i need to check mezzano someday
2017-04-12T20:37:19Z shka_: i wonder how network stack works there for instance
2017-04-12T20:37:21Z phoe: thorondor[m]: shrdlu68: beach has an idea of first-class environments that could be used to have a safe multiuser Lisp operating system.
2017-04-12T20:37:22Z thorondor[m]: SBCL for bootstrapping. CUSTOM Mezzano common lisp compiler for the rest
2017-04-12T20:37:29Z phoe: it is not implemented in Mezzano (yet).
2017-04-12T20:37:40Z phoe: thorondor[m]: actually
2017-04-12T20:37:52Z phoe: Mezzano uses SBCL to bootstrap itself and then compiles itself again using its own compiler.
2017-04-12T20:38:09Z thorondor[m]: ah. yes
2017-04-12T20:38:10Z phoe: so I think you could use Mezzano to compile Mezzano since that's already what happens in the second stage.
2017-04-12T20:38:30Z shka_: phoe: enviroments for users? that's odd
2017-04-12T20:38:35Z thorondor[m]: :)
2017-04-12T20:38:36Z shka_: how that would work?
2017-04-12T20:39:17Z phoe: shka_: simple
2017-04-12T20:39:27Z thorondor[m]: and permissions? everything is live and accessible now. I don't think it is clear how you would introduce permissions
2017-04-12T20:39:30Z phoe: it's not unlike jails in BSDs
2017-04-12T20:39:59Z thorondor[m]: there are also capability-based models, like E language
2017-04-12T20:40:01Z phoe: you basically create a new dynamic environment for you through which you can only access objects that are exposed to you
2017-04-12T20:40:09Z phoe: more or less an API between Mezzano and you
2017-04-12T20:40:31Z shka_: what kind of enviroment?
2017-04-12T20:40:37Z phoe: so even if you replace/redefine something that looks like MEZZANO-INT::IMPORTANT-SYSTEM-FUNCTION
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2017-04-12T20:40:41Z shka_: because it sounded like lexenv
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2017-04-12T20:40:43Z thorondor[m]: phoe: Isee
2017-04-12T20:40:47Z phoe: then you only replace it for yourself inside the dynamic environment you are in.
2017-04-12T20:40:53Z phoe: dynamic one
2017-04-12T20:41:17Z phoe: more or less - you're locked inside your environment
2017-04-12T20:41:25Z phoe: Mezzano might have some value for *terminal-io* for example
2017-04-12T20:41:35Z phoe: but you cannot see it and therefore access it.
2017-04-12T20:41:47Z phoe: you have your own *terminal-io* value that you can use
2017-04-12T20:42:03Z shka_: so it is more or less package
2017-04-12T20:42:07Z phoe: nope
2017-04-12T20:42:08Z phoe: not a package.
2017-04-12T20:42:16Z phoe: a package is a collection of symbols.
2017-04-12T20:42:20Z shka_: yes
2017-04-12T20:42:22Z shka_: and env is?
2017-04-12T20:42:40Z phoe: clhs 3.1.1
2017-04-12T20:42:40Z specbot: Introduction to Environments: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_aa.htm
2017-04-12T20:42:44Z phoe: ^
2017-04-12T20:43:04Z phoe: "An environment is a set of bindings and other information used during evaluation (e.g., to associate meanings with names)."
2017-04-12T20:43:08Z shka_: moment
2017-04-12T20:43:16Z shka_: i knew about lexenv
2017-04-12T20:43:24Z shka_: and in fact i was using it
2017-04-12T20:43:29Z phoe: lexical, sure
2017-04-12T20:43:34Z shka_: but dynamic env is new to me
2017-04-12T20:43:35Z phoe: (let ((x 5)) ...)
2017-04-12T20:43:43Z phoe: inside the LET, X is bound to 5 lexically
2017-04-12T20:43:50Z shka_: ok, got it
2017-04-12T20:43:54Z shrdlu68: (declare (special ...
2017-04-12T20:44:01Z shrdlu68: (I think)
2017-04-12T20:44:12Z phoe: but (defvar *foo* 5) (defun bar () *foo*) (defun baz () (let ((*foo* 18)) (bar)))
2017-04-12T20:44:13Z shka_: wow
2017-04-12T20:44:19Z phoe: (baz) ;=> 18
2017-04-12T20:44:24Z phoe: and not 5
2017-04-12T20:44:33Z shka_: so
2017-04-12T20:44:51Z shka_: i can actually introspect env for unwind-protect
2017-04-12T20:45:03Z shka_: that is rather interesting
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2017-04-12T20:48:03Z shka_: i have to check it some day
2017-04-12T20:49:45Z phoe evaluates shka_ for fun
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2017-04-12T20:57:37Z lonjil: shka_: quake is in C, but the version running on mezzano is lisp. froggey made a CL-outputting backend for LLVM, kinda like Emscripten. So he's transpiling C programs to CL
2017-04-12T20:57:47Z shka_: i now
2017-04-12T20:57:51Z shka_: *know
2017-04-12T20:57:55Z lonjil: mm
2017-04-12T20:58:04Z shka_: and this is quite amazing
2017-04-12T20:58:40Z lonjil: I figure just like emscripten, he probably just makes a really big byte array to emulate pointers
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2017-04-12T20:58:57Z shka_: most likely
2017-04-12T20:59:06Z shka_: but he still needs to have allocator for it
2017-04-12T20:59:10Z shka_: and STUFF
2017-04-12T20:59:24Z lonjil: yeah
2017-04-12T20:59:29Z shka_: not easy at all
2017-04-12T20:59:39Z lonjil: voodoo magic in the compiler I guess
2017-04-12T21:00:09Z shka_: also
2017-04-12T21:00:18Z shka_: note that it also uses sdl
2017-04-12T21:00:30Z shka_: so he had to load library along with it
2017-04-12T21:00:33Z lonjil: although I think all of mezzano runs in ring0, so I wonder if a badly written program could actually crash the OS
2017-04-12T21:00:35Z shka_: perhaps it is static
2017-04-12T21:00:37Z shka_: but still
2017-04-12T21:01:07Z shka_: it is managed
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2017-04-12T21:01:23Z shka_: so it can't unless you have bug in lisp itself
2017-04-12T21:01:37Z lonjil: mm
2017-04-12T21:02:23Z _death: what does (loop) do
2017-04-12T21:02:24Z lonjil: once he releases it, I'm going to try some really badly written C programs, see what happens
2017-04-12T21:03:10Z shrdlu68: _death: I'd guess it returns nil immediately.
2017-04-12T21:03:22Z lonjil: _death: nothing forever
2017-04-12T21:03:31Z phoe: int main () { int i = 0; int* j = (int*) i; int k = *j; }
2017-04-12T21:03:34Z _death: I mean on mezzano
2017-04-12T21:03:50Z lonjil: well probably nothing, forever
2017-04-12T21:03:58Z _death: can it be interrupted
2017-04-12T21:04:05Z lonjil: I think so
2017-04-12T21:04:21Z lonjil: there was a kill thread function, for the worst case
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2017-04-12T21:05:49Z _death: what does (loop for thread in (list-all-threads) do (interrupt-thread thread (lambda () (loop)))) do
2017-04-12T21:06:16Z _death: though I suppose it needs to order them first
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2017-04-12T21:07:44Z phoe: _death: oh, I guess it just makes them loop forever, until the thread doing the interrupting gets interrupted as well
2017-04-12T21:07:51Z phoe: at which points the remaining threads will run
2017-04-12T21:09:01Z phoe: ...while being choked to death by all these busy loops from other threads
2017-04-12T21:10:43Z _death: guess mezzano could still function and break, but maybe worth a try
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2017-04-12T21:11:30Z phoe: haha, now we're going to start attempting to deliberately crash mezzano
2017-04-12T21:11:57Z thorondor[m]: looks quite robust to me
2017-04-12T21:12:40Z thorondor[m]: I've come across some cyclic garbage collections, or something similar
2017-04-12T21:12:49Z thorondor[m]: that makes things unresponsive
2017-04-12T21:13:31Z thorondor[m]: also, something odd: gc is triggered whenever you resize windows
2017-04-12T21:13:48Z thorondor[m]: but not when moving them, or doing other things
2017-04-12T21:14:30Z phoe: probably because resizing windows causes Mezzano to cons a lot
2017-04-12T21:14:41Z shka_: not surprised
2017-04-12T21:15:15Z shka_: it probably allocates buffer for new bitmap, composes on that bitmap, throws old buffer away
2017-04-12T21:16:40Z thorondor[m]: I see
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2017-04-12T21:33:45Z gigamonkey: Is there really no CL:COMPOSE? I see there's one in Alexandria but I could have sworn there was one built in?
2017-04-12T21:33:48Z gigamonkey: Weird.
2017-04-12T21:33:58Z shka_: gigamonkey: there is no compose
2017-04-12T21:34:16Z shka_: but since everybody is using alexandria…
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2017-04-12T21:37:50Z phoe: gigamonkey: if it's in Alexandria, then it means it's not in CL, and the fact that it's not in CL is enough to put it in Alexandria.
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2017-04-12T21:43:50Z shka_: static-vectors does not build on sbcl
2017-04-12T21:44:41Z phoe: shka_: more info
2017-04-12T21:44:52Z shka_: one moment
2017-04-12T21:44:54Z phoe: stacktrace, sbcl version, static-vectors version
2017-04-12T21:45:04Z shka_: trying to update stuff on system just in case
2017-04-12T21:46:38Z shka_: ok, static-vectors DOES build on sbcl after updating everything
2017-04-12T21:49:01Z prxq: is there a way to merge readtables?
2017-04-12T21:49:33Z phoe: prxq: https://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/#MERGE-READTABLES-INTO
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2017-04-12T21:50:42Z prxq: phoe: thanks
2017-04-12T21:50:52Z phoe: prxq: don't thank me, thank Google
2017-04-12T21:51:18Z phoe: prxq: https://i.imgtc.com/29C1Hnw.png
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2017-04-12T21:54:21Z shka_: phoe: don't be mean
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2017-04-12T21:54:52Z akkad: yeah this is not #sbcl
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2017-04-12T21:54:58Z phoe: :<
2017-04-12T21:55:00Z phoe: okay, I'm sorry
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2017-04-12T21:57:37Z prxq: heh :-)
2017-04-12T21:58:57Z pjb: That said, alexandria:compose is a function taking functions.  cesarum's compose is a macro taking function names.  (funcall (compose 1+ sin round) pi) --> 1.14112  vs. (funcall (alexandria:compose (function 1+) (function sin) (function round)) pi) --> 1.14112
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2017-04-12T22:00:38Z phoe: pjb: (compose 1+ sin round) versus (compose #'1+ #'sin #'round)
2017-04-12T22:00:43Z pjb: Also, as  a function using reduce, alexandria doesn't let the compiler optimize anything, vs. cesarum macro let the compiler optimize out function calls.
2017-04-12T22:01:10Z phoe: I know that you're advertising your own stuff, but the reader macros aren't there for nothing
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2017-04-12T22:01:28Z pjb: I never use #' too many sharp spikes.
2017-04-12T22:01:45Z pjb: I prefer the round chubbiness of (function x)
2017-04-12T22:03:48Z prxq: a botero vs a giger!
2017-04-12T22:05:25Z shka_: real code has curves
2017-04-12T22:05:28Z shka_: or something
2017-04-12T22:06:11Z phoe: shka_: a real program begins above 120 kLOC
2017-04-12T22:06:29Z shka_: heh
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2017-04-12T22:07:29Z shka_: phoe: iirc genera is around just one million lines of code
2017-04-12T22:07:43Z shka_: so you may reevaluate that or something
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2017-04-12T22:10:22Z phoe: good, genera is a real program then
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2017-04-12T22:19:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does this mean that I can make my programs real by replacing all the space between tokens with newlines?
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2017-04-12T22:20:38Z shka_: nah, you will just add imaginary part
2017-04-12T22:20:46Z shka_: so you will get complex program
2017-04-12T22:20:51Z shka_: gosh
2017-04-12T22:20:57Z shka_: this was so bad
2017-04-12T22:21:00Z shka_: good night all
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2017-04-13T00:13:51Z pillton: Haha. "lexical environment too hairy, can't inline DEFUN example"
2017-04-13T00:14:03Z pillton loves hairy environments.
2017-04-13T00:16:09Z pillton: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344155
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2017-04-13T00:20:40Z drmeister: ::notify phoe - Did I crash your machine?
2017-04-13T00:20:41Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let phoe know as soon as possible.
2017-04-13T00:24:44Z drmeister: ::notify phoe I was building clasp within docker - I've done that on a machine of similar configuration to origin.  I'm not sure what happened but I can't ping the machine at the moment.   Maybe it got knocked offline or something?
2017-04-13T00:24:45Z Colleen: drmeister: Got it. I'll let phoe know as soon as possible.
2017-04-13T00:25:23Z drmeister: Aaaannd I just realized I'm doing this on #lisp
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2017-04-13T00:44:12Z holycow: hi
2017-04-13T00:44:37Z holycow: i'm trying to install cffi-libffi with quicklisp and it is erroring out.  anyone else have the same problem?
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2017-04-13T00:53:42Z Xach: what is the error
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2017-04-13T00:55:29Z holycow: sec
2017-04-13T00:56:21Z holycow: http://pastebin.ca/3794860
2017-04-13T00:56:45Z holycow: same error on debian 8 stable as well as debian unstable (debian 9) just in case
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2017-04-13T00:57:26Z holycow: i tried installing cffi-libffi via debian package manager on debian 9 but no change in error, then thought to try using ql once again to install that way and still same error
2017-04-13T00:57:43Z holycow: looks like a packaging issue on debian, but not sure why ql might error out
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2017-04-13T01:02:24Z holycow: also hi Xach and everyone else
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2017-04-13T03:05:41Z lexicall: is there any macro or package that performs inline transformation from infix expressions to sexps? for instance #[a+b+c*d+e] -> (+ a b (* c d) e)
2017-04-13T03:06:31Z lexicall: it could be a reader macro I think.
2017-04-13T03:07:06Z Bike: if you google "common lisp infix" you'll get a few examples.
2017-04-13T03:07:06Z Colleen: Bike: drmeister said at 2017.04.05 06:41:41: I wrote that utility to attach the line number of each llvm-ir instruction to each llvm-ir instruction.  This should facilitate debugging code generation considerably.
2017-04-13T03:07:19Z drmeister: Hey!  You're back!
2017-04-13T03:07:28Z lexicall: alright. I'm checking that.
2017-04-13T03:07:39Z Bike: i am back.
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2017-04-13T03:08:14Z vtomole: Bike ! Hey.
2017-04-13T03:08:26Z Bike: hey
2017-04-13T03:08:59Z loke: Hello Bike
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2017-04-13T03:29:31Z drmeister: How does one declare class instance variables?
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2017-04-13T03:29:39Z drmeister: I should know this.
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2017-04-13T03:30:22Z drmeister: Is it slots in the metaclass?
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2017-04-13T03:31:09Z drmeister: No - it's the :allocation keyword.
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2017-04-13T03:32:25Z loke: drmeister: but it could be implemented as slots on the metaclass, yes?
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2017-04-13T03:33:43Z drmeister: Well, there is the :allocation (member :class :instance)  option of a slot in defclass
2017-04-13T03:33:45Z drmeister: clhs defclass
2017-04-13T03:33:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
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2017-04-13T03:35:01Z loke: Exactly, but the CLOS implementation could elect to implement :ALLOCATION :CLASS as members on the metaclass?
2017-04-13T03:36:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-13T03:42:42Z drmeister: loke: Perhaps - I don't know the details.
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2017-04-13T03:52:37Z Bike: well, it couldn't be more slots in the metaclass, since the user can specify the metaclass
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2017-04-13T03:54:03Z beach: In SICL CLOS, I allocate space in the effective slot metaobject.
2017-04-13T03:56:05Z pillton: Can you put it in the prototype object?
2017-04-13T03:56:34Z beach: Good question.
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2017-04-13T03:58:24Z beach: That might screw up offsets of the other slots, though.  You would have to put it after the instance-allocated slots.
2017-04-13T03:58:36Z pillton: I was little surprised to read about the prototype object in AMOP.
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2017-04-13T04:16:46Z pillton: Welcome back Bike.
2017-04-13T04:17:10Z pillton: Are you still using your laptop beach?
2017-04-13T04:18:08Z holycow: Xach: pls ignore the error message from earlier.  it had nothing to do with ql it self.  my apologies for the distraction.
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2017-04-13T04:38:55Z beach: pillton: No, I have been back home for a few days.  Back to my comfortable desktop.
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2017-04-13T07:46:45Z mazoe: morning all
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2017-04-13T07:47:05Z beach: Hello mazoe.
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2017-04-13T07:55:39Z phoe: hey hey
2017-04-13T07:56:04Z beach: Hello phoe.
2017-04-13T08:01:08Z a7f4: good morning guys!
2017-04-13T08:01:37Z beach: Hello a7f4.
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2017-04-13T08:29:18Z presiden: o/
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2017-04-13T08:37:31Z beach: Hello presiden.
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2017-04-13T09:17:13Z tetero: What's a good way to use this function for both set and get? http://paste.lisp.org/+7DKS
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2017-04-13T09:21:03Z beach: tetero: It is not clear what that means.  Since you have a list of plists, it is not clear which one should be affected if the :NAME is on none of them.
2017-04-13T09:21:20Z beach: tetero: But, before you start thinking of that, you may want to fix some other problems in this function.
2017-04-13T09:21:40Z beach: tetero: For one thing, there is no point in naming the parameter LST rather than LIST.
2017-04-13T09:22:07Z beach: tetero: Second, it is unusual style to quote keywords.  They are self evaluating anyway.
2017-04-13T09:22:45Z beach: tetero: Third, it is not a good idea to use recursion on linear structures like lists.  It is much better to use iteration.  The depth of the stack may be limited.
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2017-04-13T09:23:06Z tetero: beach: Ah. Yeah, I'm a beginner lisp'er so the code quality is not likely to be high
2017-04-13T09:23:33Z beach: tetero: Fourth, it is unusual to have a newline after the COND operator.
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2017-04-13T09:24:27Z tetero: beach: the lst instead of list is just because it's shorter. I know I can write list. I like using newline after cond, I think it makes each step more readable. Good point on the other suggestions
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2017-04-13T09:25:16Z beach: tetero: If you expose your code in order to get help, it is important that you follow established conventions.  That means that you sometimes have to avoid personal preferences that are contrary to those conventions.
2017-04-13T09:25:31Z beach: tetero: You may want to explain more about what the elements of the list are and what you want to happen when you set the color.
2017-04-13T09:25:52Z beach: tetero: Also, it is unusual to use the GET- prefix in Common Lisp.
2017-04-13T09:26:19Z tetero: beach: How so? re: get-?
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2017-04-13T09:26:53Z beach: In Common Lisp, unlike (say) Java, you would use (name person) rather than (get-name person) etc.
2017-04-13T09:27:13Z beach: So then you will have (setf (name person) "Jim")
2017-04-13T09:27:25Z tetero: beach: Ah. Yeah, I got used to the get/set naming convention in other languages. Ah, yeah that makes sense
2017-04-13T09:27:28Z beach: ... rather than (setf (get-name person) "Jim") which looks ugly.
2017-04-13T09:27:38Z tetero: Yeah you're right, I didn't think that through
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2017-04-13T09:28:22Z beach: Moreover, you would typically create some kind of object to wrap that list in, because it is unusual to want to get the color of a list.
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2017-04-13T09:28:48Z loke: tetero: Lisp tends to be quite rigid in terms of how code should be formatted. Don't take it personally. I think it's because of the syntax of Lisp where everything looks the same (parens, symbols) that it becomes important to have a consustent style so that people can read each others code.
2017-04-13T09:28:49Z beach: No doubt that list represents some application object.
2017-04-13T09:29:15Z loke: consistent even
2017-04-13T09:29:28Z beach kind of liked "consustent".
2017-04-13T09:29:48Z tetero: loke: The anti-newline after cond seemed a bit extreme to me. But I understand where you're coming from.
2017-04-13T09:30:01Z loke: To be fair, tetero's code wasn't that ugly. Compare it to some of the real nightmares some people post here.
2017-04-13T09:30:06Z tetero: Is there a site which goes through the conventions of lisp formatting? Because I don't know the conventions
2017-04-13T09:30:31Z beach: tetero: Mostly, you just have to study existing code.
2017-04-13T09:30:40Z loke: tetero: To be fair, I kinda agree about the COND. beach has a point, but I actually tend to do something similar in certain cases.
2017-04-13T09:30:56Z jackdaniel: tetero: this has some very helpful remarks: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
2017-04-13T09:31:06Z loke: tetero: I think the most important ones are:
2017-04-13T09:31:14Z loke: 1) Don't unncessarily abbreviate names
2017-04-13T09:31:17Z jackdaniel: google published its own style guidelines
2017-04-13T09:31:21Z loke: 2) Don't use recursion when iteration will do
2017-04-13T09:31:32Z jackdaniel: some rules are commonly shared among programmers, others are quite opinionated
2017-04-13T09:31:35Z loke: 3) Don't put closing parens on their own lines.
2017-04-13T09:31:36Z tetero: jackdaniel: Thanks
2017-04-13T09:31:51Z jackdaniel: s/google published/google has also published/
2017-04-13T09:32:26Z tetero: loke: All right. Sometimes I do use recursion mainly to increase my understanding of recursion, I mean I'm not at the level where I'm writing applications seriously but rather to learn
2017-04-13T09:32:55Z jackdaniel: tetero: DO is a great syntactic sugar for writing recursive functions in iterative form
2017-04-13T09:33:04Z loke: tetero: There are languages that are similar to Lisp, specifically Scheme, where recursion is encouraged. That can cause confusion.
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2017-04-13T09:33:15Z beach: tetero: So, what does it mean to set the color of a list?
2017-04-13T09:33:19Z tetero: jackdaniel: Yeah I think iteration in lisp is great
2017-04-13T09:34:03Z loke: tetero: You should take a look at LOOP. That's iteration nirvana, if you come from other languages.
2017-04-13T09:34:37Z loke: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
2017-04-13T09:34:39Z beach: tetero: Oh, one more style issue.  Although '(), (), and NIL mean the same thing to the compiler, they don't to the human reader.  In the first COND clause, you should use '(), which means the empty list.
2017-04-13T09:34:48Z jackdaniel: there is also more extensible (and readable imho) library "iterate"
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2017-04-13T09:35:14Z tetero: beach: Well you're really right about that this should be an object. Basically I got tired of having to set the colours of schemes in different places for different applications in linux and so I decided to write a simple application which can get the hex from a central place. I'm not that familiar with objects, so far, and it was simple so I just made the name and hex color a list that's written/read from a
2017-04-13T09:35:14Z loke: beach: Now there's one recommendation I don't follow myself :-)
2017-04-13T09:35:15Z tetero: file
2017-04-13T09:35:32Z loke never types '()
2017-04-13T09:35:33Z tetero: loke: Yeah I've read that, and I think loop is great. I'm mainly forcing myself to use recursion as that's harder for me to understand coming from other languages
2017-04-13T09:35:36Z beach: loke: I am sorry to hear that.
2017-04-13T09:35:51Z tetero: beach: Oh. I didn't know that
2017-04-13T09:35:57Z tetero: beach: That makes a lot of sense actually
2017-04-13T09:36:04Z loke: It makes a lot of sense.
2017-04-13T09:36:28Z loke: beach: I fully understand the argument for doing it, but it's just that I don't.
2017-04-13T09:36:44Z beach: loke: We all have our defects.
2017-04-13T09:37:04Z loke: beach: I'm super inconsistent, because your argument for '() is the same I used to justify using #'(lambda () ...)
2017-04-13T09:37:10Z beach: loke: Mine is that I still name Unix directories with an initial capital letter.
2017-04-13T09:37:29Z tetero: beach: That'd drive me insane
2017-04-13T09:38:00Z tetero: beach: Are you at least using zsh or something where it'll auto complete if you miss shift?
2017-04-13T09:38:10Z loke: tetero: zsh can do that?
2017-04-13T09:38:19Z loke: (who am I kidding, OF COURSE zsh can do that)
2017-04-13T09:38:22Z tetero: loke: zsh can launch rockets into space
2017-04-13T09:38:25Z jackdaniel: loke: zsh is pretty extensible, it even autocomplete git branches given proper conterxt
2017-04-13T09:38:28Z beach: tetero: No, I don't, sorry.
2017-04-13T09:38:43Z loke uses zsh at work,. but sticks to bash on my laptop and home machine.
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2017-04-13T09:38:59Z loke: I still haven't devided if zsh is worth it.
2017-04-13T09:38:59Z tetero: beach: I suppose one gets used to their own conventions. But still
2017-04-13T09:39:08Z loke: decided, even
2017-04-13T09:39:30Z tetero: loke: Kind of depends.. zsh can easily become bloated if you don't take it easy with the extensibility. I go through periods of using it / not using it
2017-04-13T09:40:26Z Devon: cffi:defctype apparently used to take a keyword :translate-p arg, I suppose I'll just remove it but I wonder what it would have done?
2017-04-13T09:41:38Z tetero: loke: I'd suggest just try it out for a month or two with some of the extensibility turned on. See if you like it
2017-04-13T09:42:09Z beach: tetero: You still haven't told us the significance of each element in LST.
2017-04-13T09:42:24Z tetero: beach: I did, I think you missed it
2017-04-13T09:42:30Z loke: tetero: I'm inside that trying out period right now.
2017-04-13T09:43:27Z beach: tetero: No, you explained the shape of one of those lists, i.e., that it has :NAME and :COLOR in it, but you didn't say what each list means.
2017-04-13T09:43:39Z beach: tetero: Is it one list for each application?
2017-04-13T09:44:18Z tetero: beach: Ah. So far it's one list per name/hex colour, but I was planning on making it one list per application
2017-04-13T09:44:38Z tetero: beach: Which is why it's more than one list
2017-04-13T09:44:54Z beach: tetero: I don't know what a name/hex color is, but it sounds like you should be using a hash table instead of a list.
2017-04-13T09:45:32Z beach: tetero: ... with the name being the key and the color the value.
2017-04-13T09:45:55Z tetero: beach: the name of a certain property, in a scheme, say 'active text' and the color is rrggbb hex (#52581b etc)
2017-04-13T09:46:54Z tetero: beach: Hmm. That's a good point. About using a hash map
2017-04-13T09:49:21Z beach: tetero: I am notoriously incapable of understanding descriptions like yours, so I'll let others help you.  I don't know what a "property", a "scheme", and "active text" is, and I fear that your explanation will introduce more unknown terms.
2017-04-13T09:49:36Z tetero: loke: If you're giving zsh a try I'd suggest using it consistently across the machines where you are allowed to use it, especially at home. You never quite get into it if you're jumping between that and something else
2017-04-13T09:51:36Z tetero: beach: I understand. Thank you for your suggestions anyways, there's a lot of good ones that I'll look into. Property = for example the property name in .Xresources, colour scheme = a set of colours for multiple properties that go together
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2017-04-13T10:38:26Z tetero: beach: Just to be clear, the first cond statement. You mean that I should use something like ((eq list '()) nil) right?
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2017-04-13T10:43:04Z phoe: clhs 3.4.2
2017-04-13T10:43:05Z specbot: Generic Function Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_db.htm
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2017-04-13T10:52:41Z phoe: Weird
2017-04-13T10:52:51Z phoe: In SBCL, MACROEXPAND-1 expands the macro correctly.
2017-04-13T10:53:01Z phoe: But when I try Slime's macrostep-mode, I get an error.
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2017-04-13T11:04:49Z presiden: clhs 3.4.1
2017-04-13T11:04:49Z specbot: Ordinary Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm
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2017-04-13T11:06:36Z phoe: I need help.
2017-04-13T11:06:37Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344199
2017-04-13T11:06:45Z phoe: This seems to be a bug with macrostep, or so I think.
2017-04-13T11:07:05Z phoe: This MACROEXPAND-1s fine, but errors at slime-macrostep.
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2017-04-13T11:12:32Z daemoz: Hey, what would cause a number to be formated like |2|?
2017-04-13T11:12:39Z phoe: daemoz: it's a symbol
2017-04-13T11:12:45Z phoe: a symbol with name "2"
2017-04-13T11:12:47Z phoe: and therefore not a number
2017-04-13T11:13:00Z daemoz: Gotcha.
2017-04-13T11:13:02Z daemoz: Thanks!
2017-04-13T11:14:45Z Spatial: lpaste.net/354550  Is the for loop a condition for the entire function ?
2017-04-13T11:14:49Z phoe: D'OH
2017-04-13T11:14:56Z phoe: don't mind me, I was making a very silly mistake
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2017-04-13T11:16:47Z Spatial: exploratory move should be true ?
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2017-04-13T11:30:26Z phoe: A question about generic functions and their argument types.
2017-04-13T11:30:35Z phoe: (defgeneric foo (bar))
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2017-04-13T11:31:04Z phoe: Must FOO be of ftype (function (t) *)?
2017-04-13T11:31:20Z phoe: Even if I know that I will be only putting arguments of a certain type as arguments to FOO?
2017-04-13T11:32:07Z phoe: I know it's a generic function and can therefore accept "anything" - but can I anyhow tell the compiler that I want to deliberately limit this to a subtype of T?
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2017-04-13T11:42:36Z beach: tetero: No, I meant ((null list) '())
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2017-04-13T11:44:57Z tetero: beach: Doesn't that have the same readability problem as ((null list) nil)?
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2017-04-13T11:46:18Z beach: tetero: No.
2017-04-13T11:47:22Z beach: tetero: If you are worried about NULL, use ENDP instead.
2017-04-13T11:47:53Z beach: tetero: Otherwise, ((null list) '()) means "If the list is empty, then the value is the empty list.
2017-04-13T11:48:46Z beach: tetero: Whereas ((null list) nil) means "If the list is empty, then the value is the Boolean false", or possibly, "If the list is empty, then the value is the default value that I use when I have no better one to supply".
2017-04-13T11:49:00Z tetero: beach: Not worried about it. Just puzzled by the inconsistency. The argument for '() vs nil is due to readability, whereas the exact same readability problem occurs in (null list)
2017-04-13T11:49:23Z beach: Why do you think it does?
2017-04-13T11:49:38Z tetero: beach: Because you can use the same argument for both statements
2017-04-13T11:50:21Z beach: tetero: It has nothing to do with arguments.  It has to do with established conventions, that have come about in chaotic and often unknown ways.
2017-04-13T11:50:48Z tetero: Personally I consider (null list) to mean "If the list is empty" as you say. But then I also consider ((null list) nil) to mean that the default value is an empty list too.
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2017-04-13T11:51:26Z beach: tetero: Again, it has nothing to do with personal preferences.  It has to do with established conventions that developed over a long period of time.
2017-04-13T11:51:34Z beach: tetero: Is English your first language?
2017-04-13T11:51:44Z tetero: beach: Right, but in the style guide that was linked to me that'd be considered 'religious'. It advocates understanding 'why' a certain style is used
2017-04-13T11:53:45Z beach: tetero: NIL means either the Boolean value false, or some default value that would be used to indicate that no reasonable value can be given.  '() means the empty list.  It is a perfectly reasonable value for a list and is not a default value to be used when nothing else is reasonable.
2017-04-13T11:54:27Z tetero: beach: I agree. But by that same logic (null list) doesn't mean "if the list is empty" from the same readability perspective
2017-04-13T11:55:06Z beach: clhs null
2017-04-13T11:55:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_null.htm
2017-04-13T11:55:15Z beach: " Returns t if object is the empty list; otherwise, returns nil."
2017-04-13T11:55:40Z tetero: beach: Right, but the name of the function is null. If we're arguing the return value, then '() and nil are also equal
2017-04-13T11:55:41Z Grue``: personally I dislike using '() because it triggers "this is a literal list, for the love of god don't use destructive functions anywhere near it" response, even though it is not warranted
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2017-04-13T11:56:18Z tetero: beach: From the perspective of logic, that's inconsistent, even if it is convention
2017-04-13T11:56:36Z beach: tetero: I never denied that conventions are not longical.
2017-04-13T11:56:48Z beach: logical.
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2017-04-13T11:57:45Z tetero: beach: No, but in the style guide I was linked this would be categorized as religious style which I think should safely be ignored
2017-04-13T11:58:21Z beach: tetero: I suggest you ignore it then.
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2017-04-13T11:59:13Z beach: Spatial: I don't understand your question.  A loop is not a condition.
2017-04-13T11:59:50Z tetero: Grue``: That's also an interesting perspective. I didn't think of that
2017-04-13T12:01:19Z phoe: Ha! My protocol generator starts working.
2017-04-13T12:01:20Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344208
2017-04-13T12:02:38Z phoe: I can write protocols like the three ones above and, 1) variables and GFs are declared and all docstrings and appliable/supplied types/ftypes are automatically declaimed, 2) I get all of the S-expressions preserved intact for further HTML generation for example
2017-04-13T12:02:51Z beach: phoe: Why is it called define-protocol, rather than (say) define-protocol-class?
2017-04-13T12:03:25Z beach: phoe: Oh, I see.  You have functions in it too.  Maybe.
2017-04-13T12:03:26Z phoe: beach: I define more than just a protocol class.
2017-04-13T12:03:34Z phoe: I can also define parts of that protocol.
2017-04-13T12:03:41Z phoe: A protocol class is an optional part of it.
2017-04-13T12:03:56Z beach: phoe: How do you define several classes in a protocol?
2017-04-13T12:03:59Z phoe: ...I might actually turn it into one more portion, (:class class-name .....)
2017-04-13T12:04:01Z phoe: beach: I cannot.
2017-04-13T12:04:03Z phoe: This is correct.
2017-04-13T12:04:16Z phoe: I need to make that change so I can define multiple classes in a protocol.
2017-04-13T12:04:18Z beach: That is incorrect.  A protocol can have an arbitrary number of classes in it.
2017-04-13T12:04:25Z ogamita: phoe: add support for invariants, pre- and post-conditions!
2017-04-13T12:04:33Z beach: And a class can participate in any number of protocols.
2017-04-13T12:04:49Z phoe: beach: yes, I will fix it in a moment.
2017-04-13T12:05:19Z phoe: ogamita: give me some proper resources on that.
2017-04-13T12:05:22Z beach: phoe: Since a class can participate in any number of protocols, you can't make the DEFINE-PROTOCOL the defining part of the class.
2017-04-13T12:05:32Z phoe: beach: yes, I will fix that in a moment.
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2017-04-13T12:06:29Z beach: OK.
2017-04-13T12:06:43Z phoe_: I will move the class below, which will also solve the problem of a class participating in different protocols.
2017-04-13T12:06:53Z ogamita: phoe: google for contract-based programming
2017-04-13T12:07:03Z phoe_: ogamita: oh, I see.
2017-04-13T12:07:12Z phoe_: maybe in next iteration, I don't want scope creep right now.
2017-04-13T12:07:55Z ogamita: ok
2017-04-13T12:08:39Z phoe_: Besides, defining protocols is easier than defining contracts... although I think I *could* implement pre- and post-conditions by using :before :after :around methods.
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2017-04-13T12:33:43Z phoe: beach: ogamita: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344208#1
2017-04-13T12:34:52Z beach: phoe: It still looks like the DEFINE-PROTOCOL form also defines the classes.
2017-04-13T12:35:03Z beach: But maybe that's just documentation?
2017-04-13T12:36:00Z phoe: beach: you can define classes in DEFINE-PROTOCOL, yes; I'm just thinking how to construct the S-expressions so it's visible that a class to participate in different protocols.
2017-04-13T12:36:06Z phoe: s/class to/class can/
2017-04-13T12:36:46Z beach: I see.  So think for instance about what I would write for a protocol that involve the class STREAM.
2017-04-13T12:37:23Z phoe: I already have DEFGENERIC? that does not redefine the generic function if it is already defined.
2017-04-13T12:37:40Z phoe: It looks like I need a DEFCLASS? as well.
2017-04-13T12:38:27Z phoe: So if you have two protocols in which the same class participates, you can duplicate the (:CLASS ...) entry and still not have the class redefined because of it.
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2017-04-13T12:38:59Z ogamita: phoe: probably you need to split it in two.
2017-04-13T12:39:06Z phoe: ogamita: split what in two?
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2017-04-13T12:39:34Z ogamita: a protocole, like an interface, has two sides: the provider and the consumer,  the client and the server.
2017-04-13T12:40:41Z ogamita: So you would have one macro that would define the protocol, and another that would let you generate the boilerplate and add the implementation to a given "implementer" (perhaps not necessarily a clos class).
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2017-04-13T12:41:56Z phoe: ogamita: I most likely need you to write an example.
2017-04-13T12:42:17Z phoe: I get what you mean in about 70% but I want to avoid any confusion that might stem from these 30% that remain.
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2017-04-13T12:43:38Z ogamita: Something like: (define-protocol stack  (s)   (push e s) (pop s) (emptyp s))     (defstruct mystack elements)   (implement-protocol stack (mystack) (push (e s) (cl:push e (mystack-elements s)))  (pop (s) (if (emptyp s) (error "Empty stack") (cl:pop (mystack-elements s))))  (emptyp (s) (null (mystack-elements s))))
2017-04-13T12:46:47Z ogamita: (deftype adjustable-vector-with-fill-pointer () `(and vector (satisfies adjustable-vector-with-fill-pointer-p)))  (implement-protocol stack (adjustable-vector-with-fill-pointer) (push (e v) (vector-push-extend e v)) (pop (v) (if (emptyp v) (error "empty stack") (prog1 (aref v (1- (fill-pointer v))) (decf (fill-pointer v))))) (emptyp (v) (plusp (length v))))
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2017-04-13T12:47:30Z ogamita: phoe: basically, like a defgeneric with defmethod, but for multiple functions at once.
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2017-04-13T12:47:49Z ogamita: define-protocol would expand to a set of degeneric, and implement-protocol would expand to a set of defmethod.
2017-04-13T12:47:55Z phoe: ogamita: please, paste.lisp.org
2017-04-13T12:48:03Z ogamita: The lambda list (s) could take multiple parameters.
2017-04-13T12:48:10Z phoe: which also allows you to properly indent it
2017-04-13T12:49:36Z shka: ogamita: i don't see why do you need this macro
2017-04-13T12:49:48Z shka: all you really need is some kind of queue
2017-04-13T12:49:57Z shka: and that can be done with simple defclass
2017-04-13T12:50:04Z ogamita: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344212
2017-04-13T12:50:30Z ogamita: shka: the stack just a small example of a simple protocol.
2017-04-13T12:50:35Z shka: uh
2017-04-13T12:50:38Z shka: this is pointless
2017-04-13T12:50:47Z phoe: ogamita: I see.
2017-04-13T12:50:58Z shka: you can simply use MOP and be done with it
2017-04-13T12:51:17Z shka: macro does not add any value at all
2017-04-13T12:51:59Z shka: actually not mop
2017-04-13T12:52:00Z shka: clos
2017-04-13T12:52:02Z ogamita: We may add options. Like invariants to be checked on entry and exit of the protocol. It also ensure that the implementation of a protocol is complete. (We could have optional methods).
2017-04-13T12:52:13Z phoe: shka: the whole point why I began writing this was, I want to have protocols defined in S-expressions.
2017-04-13T12:52:39Z shka: phoe: make function to initialize your object?
2017-04-13T12:52:47Z shka: that accepts property list?
2017-04-13T12:53:08Z phoe: which means that if I define them in S-expressions, 1) I can generate docs for them, and 2) I can autogenerate the required "implementation points".
2017-04-13T12:53:21Z ogamita: phoe: usually we define protocols or interfaces as a set of defgeneric, but it's more like duck typing.
2017-04-13T12:53:40Z phoe: ogamita: sure thing, but DEFGENERIC is not everything.
2017-04-13T12:53:41Z shka: no
2017-04-13T12:53:48Z phoe: I also want to define protocol classes.
2017-04-13T12:53:56Z ogamita: With define-protocol, you could generate meta-information that would let you  introspect whether an instance can be used in a given protocol.
2017-04-13T12:54:08Z phoe: so I could technically make do with DEFINE-PROTOCOL-CLASS and DEFGENERIC, sure thing.
2017-04-13T12:54:11Z shka: meta-information is already there
2017-04-13T12:54:14Z ogamita: phoe: yes, you may need to define a protocol class, to store such meta-information.
2017-04-13T12:54:23Z phoe: But I want exactly the kind of information that you're talking about.
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2017-04-13T12:54:40Z shka: secondly, you can restrict defgeneric by setting type for args
2017-04-13T12:55:15Z phoe: shka: this does not set the proper FTYPE for them.
2017-04-13T12:55:31Z phoe: it seems that a generic function must nonetheless be able to accept any kind of argument in order to be able to call NO-SUCH-METHOD on it.,
2017-04-13T12:55:51Z phoe: so I cannot (declaim (ftype (function (symbol) t) some-generic-function)).
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2017-04-13T12:56:02Z phoe: because I must accept T where I want to accept only the SYMBOL.
2017-04-13T12:56:07Z phoe: type-wise, of course.
2017-04-13T12:58:05Z shka: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344213
2017-04-13T12:58:23Z shka: well, i just did that
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2017-04-13T12:59:12Z shka: so i guess it works at least for sbcl
2017-04-13T12:59:48Z phoe_: weird
2017-04-13T12:59:57Z shka: besides i don't see how this approach helps with docs
2017-04-13T12:59:59Z phoe_: similar things gave me errors
2017-04-13T13:00:09Z phoe_: I must be mistaken then.
2017-04-13T13:00:22Z phoe_: shka: it helps me with docs because I have the whole protocol in one place.
2017-04-13T13:00:30Z phoe_: which is of course achievable in different ways.
2017-04-13T13:00:50Z shka: but just dumping it won't be usefull
2017-04-13T13:01:49Z phoe_: shka: dumping?
2017-04-13T13:02:03Z shka: dumping docs
2017-04-13T13:02:09Z shka: into html or pdf
2017-04-13T13:02:24Z phoe: nah, I find it useful
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2017-04-13T13:04:41Z shka: it does not provide bigger picture imho
2017-04-13T13:05:40Z phoe: I respect your opinion and have a different one myself
2017-04-13T13:06:10Z shka: i could use standarised document preparation tool
2017-04-13T13:06:16Z shka: something like racket
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2017-04-13T13:21:50Z phoe: Whoever is responsible for paste.lisp.org - change your captcha. https://i.imgtc.com/wCHMIBE.png
2017-04-13T13:22:11Z shka: …
2017-04-13T13:22:13Z shka: ok
2017-04-13T13:22:17Z shka: that's bad
2017-04-13T13:22:21Z phoe: This is bad.
2017-04-13T13:23:21Z eudoxia: that's pretty bad lol yeah
2017-04-13T13:23:46Z phoe: easye: ^
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2017-04-13T16:20:24Z phoe_: How can I check if two lists are equal disregarding order of their elements?
2017-04-13T16:20:44Z phoe_: I want some predicate that will return T for (a b c) (c a b), I mean.
2017-04-13T16:21:08Z beach: You can check that they represent the same set.
2017-04-13T16:21:14Z phoe_: beach: yes, essentially.
2017-04-13T16:21:16Z phoe_: There won't be duplicates.
2017-04-13T16:21:20Z phoe_: So they're proper sets.
2017-04-13T16:21:24Z beach: You take set-difference both ways and check that you have ().
2017-04-13T16:21:30Z phoe_: beach: thanks.
2017-04-13T16:21:37Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-04-13T16:24:05Z dim: soon to have a thousands stars on github for pgloader... just saying ;-)
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2017-04-13T16:52:22Z knusbaum: In a lisp file, I define a function, define a macro that uses that function at expansion time, and define another function that uses that macro. I get complaints about the first function being undefined at compile time. Is it normal to wrap (eval-when) around sections of a program, or do you usually just separate out the dependent functions into another file?
2017-04-13T16:52:44Z beach: Both will work.
2017-04-13T16:52:58Z beach: I tend to use different files.
2017-04-13T16:53:40Z beach: It depends on how general the auxiliary function is.
2017-04-13T16:53:52Z beach: If it is used only in that one place, EVAL-WHEN is probably better.
2017-04-13T16:54:12Z knusbaum: cool, thanks.
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2017-04-13T16:56:46Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-04-13T17:07:41Z drmeister: Let's say I have a Common Lisp system 'cl-jupyter' and I want to extend it to add more functionality.    cl-jupyter defines a CLOS class 'kernel' and when (make-instance 'kernel ...) is invoked I'd like cl-jupyter to call a hook so that I can associate the kernel with a data structure of my own.
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2017-04-13T17:08:17Z drmeister: How would people recommend doing that?   Do I add a *make-kernel-hook* to cl-jupyter and then set that from my code?
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2017-04-13T17:09:25Z pjb: You could also do: (defmethod make-instance ((class (eql 'kernel)) &rest rest &key &allow-other-keys) (let ((instance (call-next-method))) (add-stuff-to instance) instance))
2017-04-13T17:09:58Z pjb: On the other hand, this wouldn't work for (make-instance (find-class 'kernel))…
2017-04-13T17:10:06Z knusbaum: Can you not subclass the kernel?
2017-04-13T17:10:35Z pjb: There may be difficulties with co-variance/contra-variance…e
2017-04-13T17:12:03Z shrdlu68: How about specializing initialize-instance?
2017-04-13T17:12:25Z pjb: or shared-initialize.
2017-04-13T17:13:06Z pjb: But the problem is that cl-jupyter may already have defined a method on them!
2017-04-13T17:14:37Z pjb: On the other hand, a method may be defined on (eql 'kernel) too, so…
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2017-04-13T17:15:06Z pjb: It's probably better to patch the library to implement an explicit hook, or to wrap make-instance.
2017-04-13T17:15:50Z pjb: (defun make-associated-kernel (…) (let ((instance (make-instance 'kernel …))) (add-stuff-to instance …) instance))
2017-04-13T17:15:55Z drmeister: It turns out I need a couple of hooks into cl-jupyter.    I'll add special variables for this for now and then once I settle on what I need I'll contact the author and ask if we can make changes to cl-jupyter to support jupyter widgets.
2017-04-13T17:16:21Z drmeister: So hooks for now and patches later.
2017-04-13T17:16:23Z pjb: Or you can use MOP to patch the kernel class after the fact.
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2017-04-13T18:09:38Z shrdlu68: How do I get a backtrace in ecl? It doesn't seem to be documented.
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2017-04-13T18:54:45Z Jonsky: I tried to test my function. At some point it uses (read-byte stream). I would like to test my function with (my-fun (make-string-input-stream "hello")) but then it doesn't work as it is not a binary stream. Is there anyway to make a binary stream from a string?
2017-04-13T18:56:03Z shrdlu68: You'd have to use a library like gray-streams ans something like babel to convert the string to octets.
2017-04-13T18:56:28Z _death: minion: tell Jonsky about flexi-streams
2017-04-13T18:56:29Z minion: flexi-streams: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams
2017-04-13T18:56:41Z _death: great help there bud
2017-04-13T18:57:36Z Jonsky: hahaha
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2017-04-13T18:57:58Z Jonsky: ah ha, so the standard doesn't cover that.
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2017-04-13T18:58:08Z Jonsky: minion: THANKS
2017-04-13T18:58:08Z minion: you're welcome
2017-04-13T18:58:15Z Jonsky: _death: Thank you.
2017-04-13T18:58:28Z shrdlu68: nope, it doesn't
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2017-04-13T19:29:07Z beach: shrdlu68: What did you find most amazing about that Genera demo movie?
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2017-04-13T19:47:12Z akkad: beach: that it runs quake and doom!
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2017-04-13T19:52:48Z phoe: akkad: it's not Genera
2017-04-13T19:52:50Z phoe: it's Mezzano
2017-04-13T19:58:33Z shrdlu68: beach: How well-integrated the entire system was. Also Genera was far more advanced than I thought.
2017-04-13T19:58:59Z beach: shrdlu68: OK.  Thanks!
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2017-04-13T20:07:08Z phoe: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR: no dispatch function defined for #\L
2017-04-13T20:07:15Z phoe: aw damn
2017-04-13T20:07:21Z phoe: I wanted to input #lisp and I did it in the wrong window
2017-04-13T20:07:34Z phoe: anyway - night
2017-04-13T20:07:56Z shrdlu68: good night
2017-04-13T20:09:01Z shrdlu68: Debugger received error of type: BORDEAUX-MP-CONDITION
2017-04-13T20:09:10Z shrdlu68: There is no support for this method on this implementation.
2017-04-13T20:09:54Z shrdlu68: ecl on powerpc.
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2017-04-13T20:10:52Z shrdlu68: Oh wait. Is this processor *that* old?
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2017-04-13T20:13:41Z phoe: I don't think so
2017-04-13T20:13:46Z phoe: it just might be unimplemented
2017-04-13T20:13:51Z phoe: but then again, I'm not sure
2017-04-13T20:13:54Z phoe good night take two
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2017-04-13T20:18:22Z shrdlu68: ccl failed to build completely. Let me try sbcl from the git repo.
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2017-04-13T20:31:43Z drmeister: I recently added multithreading to clasp and I'm running slime in :spawn mode.
2017-04-13T20:32:07Z drmeister: (format t "foo~%") --> *inferior lisp* buffer but not the *slime-repl clasp* buffer
2017-04-13T20:32:08Z flip214: drmeister: sounds like a big step forward!
2017-04-13T20:32:15Z drmeister: Does anyone know what might be wrong?
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2017-04-13T20:39:50Z shrdlu68: sbcl has failed. Let me try clasp.
2017-04-13T20:40:20Z shrdlu68: "Building on most systems will take around 4GB of RAM and ~2 hours with a relatively modern processor..."
2017-04-13T20:40:26Z shrdlu68 whistles
2017-04-13T20:40:55Z burtons: I hope it builds for you, I was unsuccessful last time
2017-04-13T20:41:24Z shrdlu68: burtons: x86?
2017-04-13T20:41:53Z burtons: Yes, but this was about 6 months ago
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2017-04-13T20:49:45Z rpav: shrdlu68: what are you building on that all these common things fail?
2017-04-13T20:52:59Z shrdlu68: powerpc
2017-04-13T20:53:05Z shrdlu68: an iMac G5
2017-04-13T20:54:05Z Xach: Old school
2017-04-13T20:57:59Z shrdlu68: Does anyone here actively use GCL?
2017-04-13T20:58:57Z drmeister: I found the problem - I was redirecting the output.
2017-04-13T20:58:59Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/WUw2Bkov/
2017-04-13T20:59:49Z burtons: shrdlu68: i pull it out every once and a while to see if it builds on my system
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2017-04-13T21:08:11Z nyef`: shrdlu68: Single or multi CPU G5 setup? I'm thinking single because iMac, but it's been long enough that I don't remember if they made a dual-G5 iMac. I know that they made dual- and quad-G5 Macs, though.
2017-04-13T21:09:11Z shrdlu68: nyef`: single.
2017-04-13T21:10:06Z nyef`: shrdlu68: The original SBCL PPC threading work was done on a dual-G5 desktop, FWIW.
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2017-04-13T21:12:52Z shrdlu68: I see. I'll just keep trying all the lisps.
2017-04-13T21:12:54Z adamvh: if i want a function to be available at macro-expansion time
2017-04-13T21:13:01Z adamvh: how do i do that?
2017-04-13T21:13:10Z adamvh: like define functions for my macros to call
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2017-04-13T21:14:54Z burtons: wrap it in (eval-when (compile-toplevel) ...) should work
2017-04-13T21:15:26Z burtons: or just (eval-when (compile) ...)
2017-04-13T21:16:36Z adamvh: so to be clear
2017-04-13T21:16:53Z adamvh: (eval-when (compile) (defun ...)))
2017-04-13T21:16:56Z burtons: yes
2017-04-13T21:17:02Z adamvh: thanks!
2017-04-13T21:17:38Z adamvh: another question: will this pick up package imports?
2017-04-13T21:18:02Z adamvh: or do i need to wrap (use-package ...) also in eval-when
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2017-04-13T21:19:31Z burtons: not sure off the top of my head
2017-04-13T21:19:54Z adamvh: guess we're doing some science then
2017-04-13T21:19:56Z Bike: use-package doesn't have compile time side effects, so yeah
2017-04-13T21:19:59Z burtons: but if you do need to wrap the use-package, you should use (eval-when (compile load eval) (use-package ...))
2017-04-13T21:20:24Z burtons: to make sure it's always evaluated at all times, not just during compile
2017-04-13T21:20:26Z Bike: should be :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute
2017-04-13T21:20:34Z burtons: both work
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2017-04-13T21:30:24Z knusbaum: Anyone know of a good way to add buttons to a clim application during initialization rather than in define-application-frame?
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2017-04-13T21:36:47Z knusbaum: Looking through the docs, I'm not finding much.
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2017-04-13T21:47:53Z nyef`: knusbaum: Are you looking for something like WITH-OUTPUT-AS-GADGET, or something else?
2017-04-13T21:48:32Z knusbaum: that sounds like what I'm looking for. Let me check
2017-04-13T21:49:49Z nyef`: knusbaum: Also note that the :PANE and :PANES options to DEFINE-APPLICATION-FRAME are primarily used to define a GENERATE-PANES method that is called when the frame is adopted by a frame manager, which *is* initialization-time.
2017-04-13T21:50:09Z nyef`: We looked over the situation recently in #clim, and found that there's a way to access slots on the frame instance from within :PANES.
2017-04-13T21:50:40Z knusbaum: interesting
2017-04-13T21:52:00Z nyef`: There are a couple of other ways to alter the frame layout and panes and whatnot post-initialization as well, but they're more off-the-beaten-path and I'm not entirely certain how well they would interact with a given implementation.
2017-04-13T21:54:50Z knusbaum: Sweet, that works.
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2017-04-13T21:59:32Z nyef`: knusbaum: Good to hear. If you have any further CLIM questions, either here or #clim are good places to ask.
2017-04-13T22:01:29Z knusbaum: Great, I wasn't aware of #clim.
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2017-04-13T22:12:05Z aeth: If I have to have fixnum index <-> keyword, what's the best way to do this? Keyword -> index hash-table and index -> keyword array?
2017-04-13T22:12:38Z Bike: that's the basic, yeah.
2017-04-13T22:14:11Z pjb: aeth: (setf (get keyword 'your-package:index) index)   I would bet (get keyword 'your-package:index)  is faster than (gethash keyword *your-hash*)
2017-04-13T22:14:50Z pjb: (as long as the symbol-plist is shorter than 5 or 35 elements, (depending on the implementation).
2017-04-13T22:14:54Z pjb: ).
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2017-04-13T22:22:22Z aeth: pjb: It doesn't need to be fast, though. When it needs to be fast, it will only use the numeric indices.
2017-04-13T22:23:01Z Bike: then what "best" do you want
2017-04-13T22:23:57Z pjb: Even (position keyword #(:a :b :c)) may be faster than (gethash keyword table) !
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2017-04-13T22:24:22Z pjb: or (case keyword (:a 0) (:b 1) (:c 2)).
2017-04-13T22:25:14Z pjb: assume (defun k->i (k) (case k (:a 0) (:b 1) (:c 2))) (declaim (inline k->i))   (k->i :b) could be generated as 1.
2017-04-13T22:25:23Z pjb: Otherwise you could also write a compiler-macro.
2017-04-13T22:25:27Z Xof: you could use a compiler-marco to specialize the lookup at each call site
2017-04-13T22:25:34Z Xof: so many options
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2017-04-13T22:39:19Z trocado: i have some long running functions, and it would be nice to have a progress counter at the repl, but how do I print or "format" consecutively on the same line?
2017-04-13T22:39:42Z trocado: i'm on sbcl/slime
2017-04-13T22:42:20Z Xof: depends on your terminal
2017-04-13T22:42:41Z Xof: you could try issuing #\Return without #\Linefeed
2017-04-13T22:43:00Z Xof: or just not print newlines at any point, just dots
2017-04-13T22:44:44Z trocado: #\Return just prints "#\Return" verbatim...
2017-04-13T22:45:01Z Bike: you have to use the write printer.
2017-04-13T22:45:31Z trocado: how do I do that?
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2017-04-13T22:45:51Z Bike: well, not printing newlines is the main thing.
2017-04-13T22:46:08Z Bike: you can just write out dots and it'll put them on the same line, assuming you don't have something else printing at the same time.
2017-04-13T22:46:49Z trocado: let me try that...
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2017-04-13T22:50:09Z trocado: ok, I can make do with dots! thank you guys
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2017-04-13T22:53:28Z trocado: even though it would be nice to have the dots inside brackets like this [...........           ] 50%
2017-04-13T22:55:18Z aeth: Bike, pjb: What I'm basically doing is making something very similar to a relational database, and the thing that needs both an integer index (internal representation) and keyword (used in some places instead of the index) is basically the key.
2017-04-13T22:55:51Z Bike: trocado: if you want to actually rewrite you need something curses-ish. more complicated.
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2017-04-13T22:58:45Z aeth: Bike, pjb: e.g. :square could be 3, i.e. someone creates something that is :square, but 3 is placed in the struct instead of :square, which refers to position 3 in another array elsewhere. There could be lots of squares. Sort of like a foreign key.
2017-04-13T22:59:21Z Bike: that doesn't sound like you have any specific priorities, so a hash table and array sounds fine
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2017-04-13T23:05:15Z aeth: The integer will be used a *lot*, the keyword will rarely be used.
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2017-04-13T23:09:18Z aeth: In my example, 3 is used every draw call, and :square would only be used on entity creation or if the shape changes.
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2017-04-13T23:13:31Z aeth: (And maybe when printing?)
2017-04-13T23:15:50Z Bike: none of this really speaks to the requirements for the bijection
2017-04-13T23:17:37Z aeth: key -> index is to assign e.g. the shape. index -> key would be printing, error messages, etc.
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2017-04-13T23:19:11Z aeth: e.g. "foo is a ~A~%" (symbol-name :square)
2017-04-13T23:21:14Z pjb: aeth: in general, those keywords won't be used as literals in your program. You will have a user input, a function to validate it and convert it into a code. In your program your variables will hold the numeric code.
2017-04-13T23:22:14Z pjb: aeth: if you're implementing a DSL for a user who is a database programmer, then you can have macros (or compiler-macros) to perform this validation and conversion of literal keywords into numeric codes used at run-time.
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2017-04-13T23:23:13Z aeth: Yes, but e.g. (shape-id-to-name 3) could be needed, especially if I go the relational DB DSL route
2017-04-13T23:24:04Z pjb: Of course, you will generate functions to validate/encode, and to decode. In general I call the later something-label to obtain the label of something.
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2017-04-13T23:24:38Z aeth: ah
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2017-04-13T23:27:28Z pjb: Also, as literal, you can always use defconstant  (or a defenum macro to generate them).
2017-04-13T23:28:01Z pjb: (defconstant +a+ 1) (defconstant +b+ 2)  (do-something-with +a+) … instead of (do-something-with :a)
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2017-04-13T23:35:47Z aeth: yes, I've used constants before for something similar, the indices of the boolean sets (e.g. 2 is the second 1 in #b10100)
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2017-04-14T00:56:33Z afidegnum: how do i locate my local projects?
2017-04-14T00:56:39Z afidegnum: folder
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2017-04-14T03:27:32Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-14T03:47:37Z Josh_2: O snap it's almost morning :O
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2017-04-14T04:31:36Z PuercoPop: afidegnum: (describe 'ql:*local-project-directories*)
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2017-04-14T05:16:29Z spatial: Quick question http://lpaste.net/354550 Here 'for' is a condition for the entire function to execute ?
2017-04-14T05:17:42Z spatial: I took this from a Mschine learning book. Trying to understand the algo.
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2017-04-14T05:18:59Z spatial: for exploratory-move? = (< (random 1.0) epsilon) This one
2017-04-14T05:19:06Z Bike: no, it's an assigment.
2017-04-14T05:19:36Z Josh_2: You are making exploratory-move the value of the evaluated function
2017-04-14T05:20:01Z Bike: each iteration of the loop, (< (random 1.0) epsilon) is evaluated, and the result is stored in the exploratory-move? variable.
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2017-04-14T05:20:34Z spatial: Ok. No other side
2017-04-14T05:20:43Z Bike: you asked this same question last week
2017-04-14T05:20:51Z Bike: did you ever read that stuff i linked?
2017-04-14T05:22:05Z spatial: Bike:Yes. But was converting to haskell and running.
2017-04-14T05:22:26Z Josh_2: Q_Q blasphemy
2017-04-14T05:22:36Z spatial: I will set up a lisp envitionm
2017-04-14T05:22:43Z spatial: Sorry
2017-04-14T05:23:13Z Josh_2: Bike: what's the difference between for and with in the loop macro?
2017-04-14T05:23:14Z Bike: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html#equals-then-iteration this clause is clearly explained here
2017-04-14T05:23:16Z beach: spatial: That code is pretty bad.  Don't follow its example.
2017-04-14T05:23:29Z akkad: but that book is our bible!
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2017-04-14T05:23:38Z Bike: what book even is it
2017-04-14T05:23:40Z Josh_2: Okay I see it :P
2017-04-14T05:23:43Z beach: Josh_2: WITH is executed once.  FOR is executed in each iteration.
2017-04-14T05:23:50Z akkad: PCL
2017-04-14T05:24:03Z Bike: i meant the one from the code example
2017-04-14T05:24:09Z akkad: oh
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2017-04-14T05:24:17Z Bike: i do, actually, know what the book i just linked is
2017-04-14T05:24:21Z beach: spatial: It uses SETQ on undefined variables, or (if they are defined) on variables that do not follow the naming convention.
2017-04-14T05:24:36Z spatial: The code looks odd because it does not seem to be straightforward. Thought lisp is written like that.
2017-04-14T05:25:01Z beach: spatial: The code either violates the standard or disrespects conventions, or both.
2017-04-14T05:25:05Z Josh_2: Lisp is written to not be straightforward? That seems very counter productive.
2017-04-14T05:25:06Z Bike: well, loop is its own sublanguage
2017-04-14T05:25:10Z spatial: Reinforcement Learning by Sutton.
2017-04-14T05:25:10Z jack_rabbit: PCL has some bad code?
2017-04-14T05:25:22Z Bike: no the code isn't from PCL come on
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2017-04-14T05:25:45Z jack_rabbit: Maybe I misread the backlog
2017-04-14T05:25:50Z Bike: you did
2017-04-14T05:27:56Z spatial: Author didn't code it. Someone did it for him.
2017-04-14T05:28:33Z beach: spatial: I am surprised.  The book has a copyright date of 2012.  That means that the person who wrote the code doesn't really know Common Lisp.
2017-04-14T05:28:43Z Josh_2: What's the book?
2017-04-14T05:28:56Z Bike: reinforcement learning by sutton
2017-04-14T05:28:56Z beach: *sigh*
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2017-04-14T05:29:10Z jack_rabbit: what is happening right now?
2017-04-14T05:29:22Z White_Flame: depends on who you ask ;)
2017-04-14T05:29:27Z Bike: your irc client is dropping messages, maybe??
2017-04-14T05:29:34Z jack_rabbit: apparently
2017-04-14T05:29:43Z Bike: anyway the code seems ok other than the dynamic variable thing. i mean, it's kind of messy, but loop is like that
2017-04-14T05:30:06Z spatial: February 1998 https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/reinforcement-learning
2017-04-14T05:30:31Z Bike: 2012 seems to be the second ed
2017-04-14T05:30:38Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-04-14T05:30:42Z beach: That explains it.
2017-04-14T05:31:28Z beach: spatial: It used to be the case that many Common Lisp implementations automatically created a special variable when SETQ was used to assign to an undefined such variable.
2017-04-14T05:31:59Z beach: spatial: But that default behavior is very error prone so we don't do that anymore.  And most good Common Lisp implementation will now complain about an undefined variable.
2017-04-14T05:32:15Z beach: spatial: Furthermore, we use the *earmuff* convention for special variables these days.
2017-04-14T05:32:58Z spatial: beach: Ok
2017-04-14T05:33:08Z beach: But Bike is right, other than that, it is not too bad.
2017-04-14T05:34:40Z spatial: It isn't bad. That is the first lisp program I learnt. And converted completly to haskell. Just some doubts.
2017-04-14T05:35:00Z spatial: Silly doubts
2017-04-14T05:35:26Z Bike: something that side effecty must be a little unnatural in haskell
2017-04-14T05:35:58Z spatial: Uses some mutable arrays.
2017-04-14T05:36:40Z beach: Maybe it will look like someone "speaking" Haskell with a Common Lisp "accent".
2017-04-14T05:37:03Z Bike: the lisp code already looks translated from something else
2017-04-14T05:37:21Z beach: What makes you think that?
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2017-04-14T05:39:03Z beach: spatial: Oh, one more style issue.  The code mixes SETF and SETQ in mysterious ways.  These days the tendency is to use SETF everywhere.
2017-04-14T05:39:29Z gabriel_laddel_p: how would I detect that I've moved the mouse to the bottom of the screen & now want to show the modeline? (in stumpwm)
2017-04-14T05:39:30Z Bike: dunno, really
2017-04-14T05:39:45Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: CLIM modeline yo
2017-04-14T05:40:06Z gabriel_laddel_p: in stumpwm, you just have to use STUMPWM::SET-MODE-LINE-WINDOW
2017-04-14T05:40:15Z beach: spatial: The convention of ending a Boolean variable with ? comes from Scheme, and the QUIET variable follows neither that convention nor that of Common Lisp.
2017-04-14T05:40:30Z beach: Hello gabriel_laddel_p.
2017-04-14T05:40:37Z gabriel_laddel_p: hm, and also place-mode-line-window, and drawable-height, & also window-priority
2017-04-14T05:41:44Z beach: spatial: So the mixture of QUIET, TERMINAL-STATE-P, and EXPLORATORY-MOVE? looks very strange.
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2017-04-14T05:43:03Z spatial: beach: terminal-state-p seems to be checking if it 0 or 1. That's all :-)
2017-04-14T05:43:46Z beach: spatial: Maybe so, but that's not what I am remarking on.  I am remarking on the three different naming styles for Boolean variables and functions.
2017-04-14T05:44:36Z beach: spatial: I am not trying to understand the code.  I usually can't even start to understand some code unless it follows established conventions.
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2017-04-14T05:45:03Z beach: spatial: It's like reading a text with the spacing all wrong, the commas in the wrong place, etc.  It is just too distracting.
2017-04-14T05:46:08Z jack_rabbit quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-04-14T05:48:15Z gabriel_laddel_p: is there a #lisp logs with search?
2017-04-14T05:48:31Z Josh_2: Open in a browser and hit ctrl+f?
2017-04-14T05:48:37Z White_Flame: google?
2017-04-14T05:49:29Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: oh yeah that would work wouldn't it. ty.
2017-04-14T05:49:58Z White_Flame: site: is your friend
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2017-04-14T06:08:19Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I just copy the Tunes log to my local computer and then use grep.
2017-04-14T06:10:54Z beach:  wget -N http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/yy.mm.dd
2017-04-14T06:11:59Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: using climacs everyday yet?
2017-04-14T06:12:06Z gabriel_laddel_p: & approx how old are you?
2017-04-14T06:12:21Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I am developing Second Climacs at the moment.
2017-04-14T06:12:24Z shrdlu68 joined #lisp
2017-04-14T06:12:30Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I am 62.
2017-04-14T06:12:41Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: and how is 2nd climacs coming along?
2017-04-14T06:12:43Z gabriel_laddel_p: is it usable?
2017-04-14T06:12:48Z beach: Not yet.
2017-04-14T06:12:57Z shrdlu68: Beautiful morning.
2017-04-14T06:12:58Z beach: But the incremental Common Lisp parser is turning out quite well.
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2017-04-14T06:13:18Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: It will be able to do things that no existing Common Lisp editor can do.
2017-04-14T06:13:37Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: examples?
2017-04-14T06:13:38Z shrdlu68: I've encountered this in bordeau-threads source; (in-package #:bordeaux-threads)
2017-04-14T06:13:56Z shrdlu68: What's the advantage of using sharpsign-colon
2017-04-14T06:14:15Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: Like distinguish between different roles of symbols, so that a lexical variable that happens to have the name of a COMMON-LISP symbol will not be highlighted.
2017-04-14T06:14:35Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: sounds spiffy.
2017-04-14T06:14:45Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: Thanks.
2017-04-14T06:15:59Z beach: shrdlu68: It is an uninterned symbol used as a string designator.
2017-04-14T06:16:16Z beach: shrdlu68: If you were to use a string, you would have to capitalize it, and that looks ugly.
2017-04-14T06:16:33Z beach: shrdlu68: And if you use a keyword symbol, you "pollute the keyword package".
2017-04-14T06:17:53Z shrdlu68: Is "pollution of the keyword package" in any way consequential?
2017-04-14T06:17:59Z beach: Not really.
2017-04-14T06:18:24Z Bike: uses a bit of memory, gives more results for tab completion
2017-04-14T06:18:28Z Bike: so not much of anything
2017-04-14T06:18:45Z shka_ quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2017-04-14T06:18:50Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: This is an example where it marks the left parenthesis of an expression that, when read, encounters end-of-file: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.png
2017-04-14T06:19:01Z White_Flame: as long as you're not automatedly and boundlessly generating interned symbols, it doesn't matter
2017-04-14T06:19:44Z beach: shrdlu68: But the use of an uninterned symbol is also a message to the maintainer: "The package of this symbol is unimportant".
2017-04-14T06:21:00Z mood_btf: Opinions on the extent to which you should avoid using actual keywords for this stuff differ a lot. Some avoid any kind of keyword in package definitions, some use them for everything, and some use a mixture. Personally I tend to use keywords for package names, but uninterned symbols in :export clauses
2017-04-14T06:22:23Z shrdlu68: I see.
2017-04-14T06:22:40Z safe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-04-14T06:23:29Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: More features: http://metamodular.com/second-climacs.png It marks non-existing packages and non-existing symbols in existing packages.
2017-04-14T06:24:14Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: one of the annoying parts of climacs is the support for languages aside from CL.
2017-04-14T06:24:28Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: having to call (current-syntax) all over the place sucks.
2017-04-14T06:24:38Z beach: I see.
2017-04-14T06:25:15Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: sending you a video. please do not share it to hacknews/reddit/etc
2017-04-14T06:25:17Z gabriel_laddel_p: or with people
2017-04-14T06:25:25Z beach: As you wish.
2017-04-14T06:26:24Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: nothing much there other than letting you know CLIM/masamune/CL is in use here in the USA.
2017-04-14T06:26:49Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: and that I've been knocking off all sorts of rough edges from the CLIM environment.
2017-04-14T06:26:55Z gabriel_laddel_p: IE, my debugger works, does not crash etc
2017-04-14T06:27:03Z gabriel_laddel_p: climacs also never crashes
2017-04-14T06:27:34Z beach: Excellent.  The video is very impressive.
2017-04-14T06:27:54Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: thanks!
2017-04-14T06:27:59Z shrdlu68: Is/Was Corman CL windows-only?
2017-04-14T06:28:07Z gabriel_laddel_p: tbh, not sure how much you could have watched, given that it is ~15 minutes long...
2017-04-14T06:28:51Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: anyways where I was going with this is that if you want your efforts to go towards something with a future, message me.
2017-04-14T06:29:18Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: I'd love to replace climacs with a slimmed-down 2nd climacs that is optimized for lisp development & plain-text editing.
2017-04-14T06:29:55Z beach: I'll keep you updated.  [still watching the video]
2017-04-14T06:29:58Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: the only major problem with climacs now is that it does not keep track of the xy position of output records so I cannot CLICK on presentations.
2017-04-14T06:30:17Z beach: Ah, yes, that I intend to fix.
2017-04-14T06:30:20Z shrdlu68: Yep, to answer my own question.
2017-04-14T06:30:32Z gabriel_laddel_p: if I had an editor that allowed me to click on presentations dropped into it, well, I would be able to sell many more masamune.
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2017-04-14T06:30:45Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I see, yes.
2017-04-14T06:31:14Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: fwiw, no one has ever accused me of being stingy.
2017-04-14T06:31:40Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: The other day, shrdlu68 watched a demo video of Genera an said "this is amazing", so I was thinking of putting together a video of what we can already do with McCLIM.
2017-04-14T06:31:49Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: aha.
2017-04-14T06:31:59Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: where are you located?
2017-04-14T06:32:01Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: But stuff like that is not my strong point, so it will take some time, if I ever have time to do it.
2017-04-14T06:32:18Z shrdlu68: gabriel_laddel_p: Nairobi.
2017-04-14T06:32:19Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: and can I share a video with you without it being leaked to hn/reddit/other people?
2017-04-14T06:32:27Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: really?
2017-04-14T06:32:48Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: I wouldn't worry about it, selling this stuff is my strong point.
2017-04-14T06:33:07Z shrdlu68: Yep, receiving the glorious rays of the equitorial sun as we speak.
2017-04-14T06:33:27Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: well if you can be trusted to not share the video, send me your email and I will give it to you
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2017-04-14T06:33:43Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: we are bringing the lispm back on modern-hardware.
2017-04-14T06:33:51Z gabriel_laddel_p: I personally work in it everyday
2017-04-14T06:34:14Z White_Flame: single-user, no access protection?
2017-04-14T06:34:21Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: you got it
2017-04-14T06:34:44Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I am not worrying.  But if you have videos for general consumption, it might save me some work.
2017-04-14T06:34:44Z White_Flame: yeah, those are the tough nuts to crack, interested if anybody else has any takes on that, besides the usual suspects here
2017-04-14T06:34:59Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: it is already done.
2017-04-14T06:35:02Z beach: White_Flame: I am working on it.
2017-04-14T06:35:05Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: no nuts need to be cracked.
2017-04-14T06:35:22Z White_Flame: gabriel_laddel_p:  I mean multi-user and access protection
2017-04-14T06:35:30Z White_Flame: beach: yeah, you're a usual suspect ;)
2017-04-14T06:35:36Z beach: White_Flame: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2017-04-14T06:35:45Z spatial quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-04-14T06:35:46Z White_Flame: we've have the discussions before
2017-04-14T06:35:59Z beach: White_Flame: I am showing it partly for the benefit of others here.
2017-04-14T06:36:08Z White_Flame: reasonable
2017-04-14T06:36:15Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: you've not seen masamune though
2017-04-14T06:36:23Z gabriel_laddel_p: you don't understand how totally over the hump I am
2017-04-14T06:36:43Z White_Flame: sure, if you're still in stealth mode, few people do
2017-04-14T06:36:58Z gabriel_laddel_p: "stealth mode" lol
2017-04-14T06:37:20Z White_Flame: well, regarding media you'd rather not share yet and such
2017-04-14T06:37:22Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: just send me your email in a PM and don't share the video with anyone else
2017-04-14T06:37:59Z White_Flame: but I found the github.  Yeah, I don't recall seeing this one before
2017-04-14T06:38:03Z White_Flame: sure
2017-04-14T06:38:09Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: the github is years out of date
2017-04-14T06:38:24Z Josh_2: What is going on
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2017-04-14T06:39:11Z White_Flame: so then the intervening years are actually "stealth mode"? ;)
2017-04-14T06:39:23Z shrdlu68: Josh_2: gabriel_laddel_p et al. are bringing back lispm on modern hardware.
2017-04-14T06:39:35Z Josh_2: Huh
2017-04-14T06:40:13Z Josh_2: Will be nice if its compatible with *nix systems
2017-04-14T06:40:24Z beach: No it would not.
2017-04-14T06:40:30Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: it is.
2017-04-14T06:40:34Z Josh_2: Well
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2017-04-14T06:41:06Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: in point of fact, it is a *nix, just only for running lisp. lisp is forwards-compatible, so it will work fine on new hardware
2017-04-14T06:41:09Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: Let me get this straight.  Is this a commercial product of yours?
2017-04-14T06:41:14Z Josh_2: As much as I love Lisp, I can't imagine using a LispOS more than an hour if I can't use Linux software
2017-04-14T06:41:16Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: something like that
2017-04-14T06:41:21Z beach: Got it.
2017-04-14T06:41:37Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: you can use the browser & whatnot alongside lisp, but everything that is exposed to the user is CL.
2017-04-14T06:41:40Z gabriel_laddel_p: (using CLIM)
2017-04-14T06:41:43Z beach: Josh_2: We should work on your imagination.
2017-04-14T06:42:39Z Josh_2: Well I'm open :P
2017-04-14T06:42:49Z shrdlu68: Josh_2: It's all about functionality. If I can get all the functionality I get out of GNU/Linux with a LispOS, by golly I'm in.
2017-04-14T06:43:00Z shrdlu68: Bye bye bash.
2017-04-14T06:43:05Z Josh_2: Exactly shrdlu68
2017-04-14T06:43:07Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: price is 410 + hardware (~200).
2017-04-14T06:43:22Z beach: What currency unit?
2017-04-14T06:43:26Z gabriel_laddel_p: usd
2017-04-14T06:43:32Z shrdlu68: Bitcoin, hehe
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2017-04-14T06:43:56Z gabriel_laddel_p: the only supported hardware (for now) is an x220 thinkpad (tablet version OK).
2017-04-14T06:44:04Z gabriel_laddel_p: anyways, if this is of interest to anyone just email me
2017-04-14T06:44:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Are you actually selling this?
2017-04-14T06:44:20Z White_Flame: (410 bitcoin == half a million USD)
2017-04-14T06:44:22Z gabriel_laddel_p: fiddlerwoaroof: yeah.
2017-04-14T06:44:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or is it still to be released?
2017-04-14T06:44:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: interesting.
2017-04-14T06:44:28Z gabriel_laddel_p: fiddlerwoaroof: I've sold 8 so far
2017-04-14T06:44:28Z shrdlu68: gabriel_laddel_p: Is it free as in fsf?
2017-04-14T06:44:35Z Josh_2: Who uses a tablet for anything other than games and interneting
2017-04-14T06:44:45Z Josh_2: wait that's what people use Windows for :P
2017-04-14T06:44:55Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: it is free as in all the sources are included & you can do whatever
2017-04-14T06:45:06Z Josh_2: I'm gonna be honest
2017-04-14T06:45:13Z shrdlu68: Nice.
2017-04-14T06:45:15Z Josh_2: That sounds reaaal scammy
2017-04-14T06:45:24Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: yeah but you haven't seen the video
2017-04-14T06:45:39Z Josh_2: If it's free as in freedom then someone else can just distribute it...
2017-04-14T06:46:09Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: glad to see you're paying attention. I and all customers have a handshake deal that they won't, outside their own orgs.
2017-04-14T06:46:22Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: if you do - no more updates, and I won't sell anything to you in the future
2017-04-14T06:46:32Z Josh_2: And do you have a list of current customers?
2017-04-14T06:46:39Z Josh_2: People who can actually verify what you are saying?
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2017-04-14T06:46:56Z gabriel_laddel_p: Josh_2: sure
2017-04-14T06:50:40Z shrdlu68: I'm wondering how lisp implementations are modularized. Take Corman CL, for example. It's windows-only x86. I I wanted to port it to, say Linux, would it be as simple as replacing the appropriate syscalls?
2017-04-14T06:50:43Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: Do you mind if I show this to my favorite co-author next time I see her?
2017-04-14T06:51:06Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I have watched the video entirely once.  I am watching it again now.
2017-04-14T06:51:17Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: The Maxima stuff is impressive.
2017-04-14T06:51:18Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: go on ahead
2017-04-14T06:51:22Z beach: Thanks.
2017-04-14T06:51:53Z krwq: shrdlu68: unfortunatelly changing only syscalls is not that straightforward
2017-04-14T06:52:04Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: since you worked on McCLIM for all those years I'm happy to get you one for the price of shipping + hardware (IE no install cost)
2017-04-14T06:52:29Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: and if I make one of the sales I'm hoping to in the next few days, I'll cover the hardware cost & shipping
2017-04-14T06:52:31Z gabriel_laddel_p: but we shall see
2017-04-14T06:52:33Z shrdlu68: krwq: What else would need to change? And is there any lisp where it would be that simple?
2017-04-14T06:52:50Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I'll consider that.  Is the hardware particular, or is it just a PC?
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2017-04-14T06:53:48Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: it is a particular model of PC.
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2017-04-14T06:54:10Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: so that we have the same user experience across all developers
2017-04-14T06:54:21Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I see.  And I would have to buy that separately?
2017-04-14T06:54:26Z krwq: shrdlu68: well, with many lisp you just don't need to do it
2017-04-14T06:54:35Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: separately from what?
2017-04-14T06:54:58Z beach: gabriel_laddel_p: I mean, do you ship the hardware, or do I have to find an independent supplier?
2017-04-14T06:55:09Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: I can ship you the hardware
2017-04-14T06:55:16Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: I am in the middle of something, and will email you the details if you'd like.
2017-04-14T06:55:23Z beach: OK, no rush.
2017-04-14T06:55:24Z gabriel_laddel_p: (look for email tomorrow)
2017-04-14T06:55:28Z beach: OK.  Thanks.
2017-04-14T06:55:39Z White_Flame: shrdlu68: CLISP used to be very portable as a bytecode interpreter.  Might still be, but I think it has native code generation now
2017-04-14T06:55:41Z krwq: shrdlu68: I think you should simply write a simple compiler if you are interested in the subject
2017-04-14T06:56:03Z shrdlu68: Haha, the Unix haters handbook in the video. How appropriate.
2017-04-14T06:56:27Z beach: shrdlu68: What is it that you are trying to do?  Port to some strange hardware?
2017-04-14T06:56:30Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: masamune is the only documented linux!
2017-04-14T06:56:43Z gabriel_laddel_p: shrdlu68: (ships with UHH as part of it)
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2017-04-14T06:57:06Z shrdlu68: krwq: I had began one, then I deviated into other pleasures.
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2017-04-14T06:58:15Z shrdlu68: beach: Yes, partly.
2017-04-14T06:59:40Z White_Flame: Finished the video.  It seems to be a competent remodernization from what I can tell
2017-04-14T07:00:06Z White_Flame: All my notes & designs approach it from a clean-room rethink of the concept, as opposed to trying to bring Genera back alive
2017-04-14T07:00:36Z White_Flame: although there's certainly great value in the latter
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2017-04-14T07:02:06Z beach: shrdlu68: If you know about compilers, there is always the Cleavir compiler framework.  Currently used by SICL and Clasp, and maybe soon by ECL as well.
2017-04-14T07:02:42Z beach: minion: Please tell shrdlu68 about SICL.
2017-04-14T07:02:42Z minion: shrdlu68: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2017-04-14T07:02:46Z beach: minion: Please tell shrdlu68 about Cleavir.
2017-04-14T07:02:46Z minion: shrdlu68: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2017-04-14T07:03:13Z shrdlu68: beach: Interesting.
2017-04-14T07:03:48Z beach: shrdlu68: Clasp uses Cleavir to create LLVM code, so it is pretty flexible.
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2017-04-14T07:07:25Z gabriel_laddel_p: White_Flame: are your notes & designs online?
2017-04-14T07:07:30Z White_Flame: no
2017-04-14T07:08:01Z White_Flame: it's all certainly in the ideas phase, with a few prototyped concepts scattered here & there
2017-04-14T07:08:54Z White_Flame: personally, I choose to use HTML, because the render quality is high
2017-04-14T07:09:31Z White_Flame: antialiased edges, font quality, etc, plus it already implements large swathes of graphics programming in a generally declarative style
2017-04-14T07:10:05Z White_Flame: but at the moment, I pared down my side projects to just my disassembler/reverse engineering stuff
2017-04-14T07:10:31Z White_Flame: which is a frontend/backend system also with the web at front.  I suspect a lot of the tools would help bootstrap my post-CL environment I envision
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2017-04-14T07:13:02Z White_Flame: one of my major thrusts is to get away from "mutate the image" style toplevel programming to more true declarative code editing
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2017-04-14T07:20:36Z beach: So, it seems clear to me that a single person (granted, one with large work capacity) can already use McCLIM and related software (listener, Climacs, etc) to create an environment that is way beyond what Genera could do.  Now, imagine combining that with a Common Lisp system with first-class global environments, and we would have something that is truly unique in its usefulness.
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2017-04-14T07:21:39Z Josh_2: Non-Lispers thing we are weird already, imagine what they will think when we start using our own OS hahaha
2017-04-14T07:22:08Z beach: I personally care more about my own productivity than what other people think of my tools.
2017-04-14T07:22:35Z White_Flame: Josh_2:  ... return to using your own OS again
2017-04-14T07:23:01Z Josh_2 wasn't complaining ::P
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2017-04-14T07:24:45Z White_Flame: I mean your sentence should have read "imagine what they will think when we return to using our own OS again"
2017-04-14T07:25:50Z shrdlu68: Well, one way things could go is that it would develope into a new fad.
2017-04-14T07:26:01Z Josh_2: Well we can blame that on the fact that I never used Genera
2017-04-14T07:26:06Z Josh_2: So it didn't even cross my mind
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2017-04-14T07:27:14Z White_Flame: using CL, it's easy to see that it has a heritage of being in its own little world, without much deference to OS functionality
2017-04-14T07:27:25Z White_Flame: *external OS functionality
2017-04-14T07:27:32Z Josh_2: Yeah I can see that
2017-04-14T07:27:40Z White_Flame: so yeah, take that back to the extreme :)
2017-04-14T07:27:55Z White_Flame: and you get lisp OSes
2017-04-14T07:28:26Z Josh_2: Haha alright :P
2017-04-14T07:33:40Z Josh_2: Should still be able to use Linux programs. I wanna use my linux programs ;P
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2017-04-14T07:34:58Z White_Flame: it looks like masamune _is_ a linux program, and has shell integration both ways
2017-04-14T07:35:19Z beach: Josh_2: Sorry to hear that.
2017-04-14T07:35:38Z White_Flame: mezzano seems to be the only one with traction doing bare-metal OS
2017-04-14T07:35:53Z White_Flame: everything else is userspace
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2017-04-14T07:38:58Z beach: Bare metal is good, but also not particularly hard compared to designing the entire API of the operating system and designing the user experience.
2017-04-14T07:40:02Z White_Flame: yep, and user experiences that serve power users have been waning, unfortunately
2017-04-14T07:40:19Z beach: Yes, I agree.
2017-04-14T07:40:23Z Josh_2: Idk about that
2017-04-14T07:40:45Z beach: Josh_2: That's because you seem attached to Unix.
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2017-04-14T07:41:08Z Josh_2: I'm not attached to Unix, it's better than windoge :P
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2017-04-14T07:41:20Z beach: Josh_2: Same thing to me.
2017-04-14T07:41:29Z Josh_2: Hmm
2017-04-14T07:41:32Z Josh_2: Why's that?
2017-04-14T07:42:01Z Josh_2: I am actually seriously curious
2017-04-14T07:42:54Z beach: Unix and its derivatives are kludges that were designed so that they could run on limited hardware, like a totally stripped-down version of Multics.  But even Multics had its limitations due to a 36-bit address space per process.  Now we have 64-bit so we could avoid all the other kludges that were required because of the process limitation.
2017-04-14T07:43:06Z beach: Josh_2: It is all in the document I cited before.
2017-04-14T07:43:17Z beach: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2017-04-14T07:44:11Z beach: But, like with anything else in this world, once people get used to inferior stuff, they really start liking it.
2017-04-14T07:44:39Z beach: Such as stick-shift automobiles (which is a kludge to get around the limitations of combustion engines).
2017-04-14T07:44:56Z shrdlu68: To be fair, Unix gets the job done quite well.
2017-04-14T07:45:05Z beach: Josh_2: Don't worry.  Strong psychological forces are at work here.  You are not alone.
2017-04-14T07:45:05Z Josh_2: Gears are fun though :P
2017-04-14T07:45:15Z beach: You prove my point.
2017-04-14T07:45:19Z Josh_2: But I understand what you are talking about
2017-04-14T07:45:30Z ecraven: but you get so much control! if you could only command each wheel directly by itself!
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2017-04-14T07:45:41Z beach: shrdlu68: Given the pile of kludges that have been added over time, sure, it is kind of usable.
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2017-04-14T07:47:12Z White_Flame: modern automatics have surpassed stick shift in every way, and with paddle shifters or even just the +/- mode on automatics, you can convey ahead-of-time intent
2017-04-14T07:47:22Z antoszka: Hm. What's masamune? Looks genera-ish on the GitHub screenshots.
2017-04-14T07:47:31Z White_Flame: yeah, basically
2017-04-14T07:47:33Z Josh_2: Auto's are boring.
2017-04-14T07:47:56Z White_Flame: antoszka: there's a commercialization effort to finish it
2017-04-14T07:48:59Z antoszka: White_Flame: but what's the purpose and scope of the project (and the platform)? Hard to say just by the screenshots, and there's no README :)
2017-04-14T07:49:28Z White_Flame: see gabriel_laddel_p in the irc scrollback
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2017-04-14T07:50:19Z beach: antoszka: gabriel_laddel_p is using McCLIM and associated software to produce an environment that is already spiffier than Genera.
2017-04-14T07:51:18Z beach: antoszka: So now I am totally convinced that we (some of us) are on the right way when working on McCLIM, Second Climacs, etc.
2017-04-14T07:51:25Z antoszka: Cool.
2017-04-14T07:51:59Z mood_btf: I wish they'd shared the video publicly
2017-04-14T07:52:38Z antoszka: Any efforts to integrate within mezzano or would there be too much missing components for running mcclim there?
2017-04-14T07:52:48Z antoszka: s/much/many/
2017-04-14T07:52:59Z beach: antoszka: I have heard rumors about McCLIM for Mezzano.
2017-04-14T07:53:33Z antoszka: Curious to see how that unfolds.
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2017-04-14T08:04:04Z akkad: Mezzano needs all the help to replace linux
2017-04-14T08:04:22Z phoe: akkad: it won't replace Linux
2017-04-14T08:04:48Z akkad: and linux won't replace minix.
2017-04-14T08:05:00Z phoe: ...touché.
2017-04-14T08:05:04Z beach: I just wish I knew how to divert some effort from "I would like to use foreign code with my otherwise safe Common Lisp system, thereby making it as vulnerable as my C code to crashes and attacks", to "Let's create a unique Common Lisp-based environment that will make our software safer and us more productive."  But I don't have any great hopes of being able to do that.
2017-04-14T08:05:28Z phoe: beach: feed the proper wolf
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2017-04-14T08:05:43Z beach: Can you be more specific?
2017-04-14T08:06:09Z phoe: beach: http://www.oneyoufeed.net/tale-of-two-wolves/
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2017-04-14T08:06:21Z phoe: a rather popular folk tale of two wolves
2017-04-14T08:06:28Z daemoz: If I was more capable, I'd be damn sure helping out. The idea is valuable, I think people will see that.
2017-04-14T08:06:50Z beach: phoe: Yeah, well, not detailed enough for me to succeed.
2017-04-14T08:07:20Z phoe: beach: just keep on working on the CL environment and keep on talking about it.
2017-04-14T08:07:29Z phoe: Which is more or less what I think you already do.
2017-04-14T08:07:32Z beach: daemoz: Capability can be acquired.  We started working on McCLIM in 2000, so there is no rush.
2017-04-14T08:07:55Z beach: phoe: Yeah, and progress is very slow (but steady).
2017-04-14T08:08:06Z phoe: Such attitude has managed to convince me into doing some higher-level stuff for Lisp community, so I guess it can work for other people as well.
2017-04-14T08:08:20Z beach: phoe: I hope you are right.
2017-04-14T08:08:27Z phoe: beach: steadiness is the most important thing here as I find it. Slowness can be remedied, it's just a matter of luck and statistics.
2017-04-14T08:08:44Z daemoz: beach: Well I study everyday so maybe in a few years I can contribute something useful.
2017-04-14T08:08:54Z beach: daemoz: Sounds great!
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2017-04-14T08:09:03Z beach: daemoz: Looking forward to it!
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2017-04-14T08:10:05Z daemoz: beach: These projects would make more headway if there was more documentation! Perhaps a simple introduction to the environment? I couldn't find one, for instance.
2017-04-14T08:10:21Z phoe: Just keep it running.
2017-04-14T08:10:31Z phoe: daemoz: XD
2017-04-14T08:10:40Z phoe: beach: so, uh, I guess this proves my point.
2017-04-14T08:10:45Z phoe: this thing daemoz just said.
2017-04-14T08:10:48Z beach: Heh, indeed.
2017-04-14T08:10:51Z daemoz: Oops I done an example
2017-04-14T08:10:57Z phoe: Haha, now I'm giggling.
2017-04-14T08:11:06Z shka: i need to check what mcclim has to offer nowdays
2017-04-14T08:11:12Z daemoz: What did I validate? haha
2017-04-14T08:11:27Z jackdaniel: daemoz: here are some resources listed: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/main.html if you are interested in learning mcclim
2017-04-14T08:11:29Z phoe: daemoz: my efforts on working on modernized documentation for CL and its universe.
2017-04-14T08:11:43Z jackdaniel: if you need help, we have estabilished #clim channel for all implementation, so feel free to drop in
2017-04-14T08:11:46Z phoe: daemoz: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-04-14T08:11:49Z daemoz: thanks, jackdaniel
2017-04-14T08:12:24Z daemoz: phoe: what is this? ultraspec?
2017-04-14T08:12:29Z phoe: daemoz: exactly
2017-04-14T08:12:42Z phoe: it's my UltraSpec.
2017-04-14T08:12:51Z daemoz: live web-based lisp environment?? oh like your proposed standard for the project?
2017-04-14T08:12:57Z phoe: neither
2017-04-14T08:13:01Z daemoz: well damn
2017-04-14T08:13:04Z daemoz: clue me in
2017-04-14T08:13:19Z phoe: an edited and modernized version of the CL specification based on the original sources of the X3J13 standardization committee
2017-04-14T08:13:32Z phoe: that aims to include documentation from other sources as well.
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2017-04-14T08:14:40Z phoe: beach: anyway - just keep it alive, that's what I think at least.
2017-04-14T08:14:44Z daemoz: Okay so a modernization attempt for CL?
2017-04-14T08:14:51Z phoe: daemoz: not exactly either.
2017-04-14T08:14:57Z phoe: I don't want to modernize CL, I want to modernize its documentation.
2017-04-14T08:15:25Z phoe: and if people ever want to make a new CL standard, they will be free to use UltraSpec as a basis for that and edit it as they see fit.
2017-04-14T08:15:26Z krwq: phoe: i like the goal - keep going
2017-04-14T08:15:36Z daemoz: roger that. That would be lovely I've found to hyperspec and other sources to be lacking in certain areas.
2017-04-14T08:15:38Z phoe: krwq: thanks! I will, just taking a break now.
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2017-04-14T08:38:06Z a7f4: hello everyone!
2017-04-14T08:38:18Z beach: Hello a7f4.
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2017-04-14T08:38:59Z Josh_2: Morning :P
2017-04-14T08:40:25Z a7f4: it's going to be a nice day :)
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2017-04-14T08:41:38Z presiden: o/
2017-04-14T08:43:18Z Josh_2: It's a overcast here, but not looking bad :P
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2017-04-14T08:44:19Z phoe: hello everyone
2017-04-14T08:44:36Z phoe: I have just updated the README page for https://github.com/phoe/cl-protest .
2017-04-14T08:44:48Z a7f4: phoe: hey
2017-04-14T08:44:50Z phoe: Still need to formalize the grammar, but it's nice to write some actual Lisp for a change.
2017-04-14T08:44:53Z phoe: a7f4: hello
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2017-04-14T08:48:25Z ogamita: phoe: so you still cannot include multi-methods in your protocols?
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2017-04-14T08:54:34Z phoe: ogamita: define a multimethod.
2017-04-14T08:54:39Z phoe: I mean.
2017-04-14T08:54:46Z phoe: What do you mean, multi-method?
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2017-04-14T08:55:43Z ogamita: phoe: a method dispatching on multiple arguments.
2017-04-14T08:56:04Z phoe: (:generic multi-method (arg1 arg2 arg3 arg4))
2017-04-14T08:56:22Z phoe: but then again, it's a generic function, not a method per sa.
2017-04-14T08:56:23Z phoe: se.
2017-04-14T08:56:36Z ogamita: eg. a protocol such as: (sign-and-validate signer notary message) --> signed-message
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2017-04-14T08:57:11Z ogamita: At least in your examples, you have a single class in a protocol.
2017-04-14T08:57:13Z phoe: (:generic sign-and-validate ((signer signer) (notary notary) (message message)) (signed-message signed-message))
2017-04-14T08:57:20Z phoe: ogamita: in my examples, yes.
2017-04-14T08:57:27Z phoe: no one prevents you from declaring multiple classes.
2017-04-14T08:57:47Z ogamita: Oh.
2017-04-14T08:57:49Z ogamita: Ok.
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2017-04-14T08:59:07Z jusss: what is F-expr?
2017-04-14T08:59:31Z jusss: and what's the different between F-expr and macro?
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2017-04-14T09:01:05Z ogamita: jusss: they're close. But F-expr are functions executed at run-time, while macros are functions executed at macro-expansion time, which is usually included in compilation-time.
2017-04-14T09:02:33Z ogamita: jusss:  the difficulty here is that when you compile code with F-expr, the F-expr won't have access to the compilation environment, so it won't have access to lexcial bindings.  It was no problem in lisp with F-expr because they didn't have lexical bindings!
2017-04-14T09:02:41Z ogamita: (cf. the funarg problem).
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2017-04-14T09:04:34Z ogamita: jusss: but since CL has lexical binding, F-expr would be quite problematic.  Notice how macros have an optional &environment argument, which let them have some access to the lexical bindings determined at compilation time (notably for lexical macros bound with symbol-macrolet and macrolet).
2017-04-14T09:06:20Z jusss: ogamita: I saw a website about newlisp, it uses F-expr for macro, I google it, and I found people argued F-expr and macro
2017-04-14T09:06:59Z ogamita: newlisp is an old lisp that hasn't learned the lessons of 40 years.  It's stuck in the 50s.
2017-04-14T09:07:11Z ogamita: Forget about it, and use Common Lisp.
2017-04-14T09:09:02Z jusss: ogamita: which common lisp implement provide good libraries like multi-thread and GUI?
2017-04-14T09:09:20Z jusss: multi-thread, GUI, socket
2017-04-14T09:10:12Z White_Flame: all the major ones do multi-threaded and sockets
2017-04-14T09:10:16Z phoe_: jusss: there are cross-implementation packages for these.
2017-04-14T09:10:18Z White_Flame: the commercial ones have GUI builders built in
2017-04-14T09:10:36Z White_Flame: otherwise, there's plenty of bindings to external GUI libraries
2017-04-14T09:10:46Z phoe_: Bordeaux-Threads does threads, USOCKET does sockets, CommonQT and others do UIs.
2017-04-14T09:10:52Z phoe_: All of these are cross-implementation.
2017-04-14T09:11:14Z phoe_: So it doesn't really matter whether you use SBCL or CCL or ECL or CLISP or whatever else is supported by them.
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2017-04-14T09:11:27Z phoe_: Though, if you're beginning, grab SBCL or CCL.
2017-04-14T09:11:56Z jusss: wow, that sound better than scheme's SRFI!
2017-04-14T09:12:13Z akkad: srfi's are newer
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2017-04-14T09:12:38Z phoe: there's nothing tricky in compatibility libraries
2017-04-14T09:13:01Z phoe: just an API that is implemented by a ton of #+ and #-
2017-04-14T09:13:33Z akkad: and terpri vs newline
2017-04-14T09:14:14Z jusss: does common lisp provide full continuation or delimited continuation?
2017-04-14T09:14:29Z jackdaniel: jusss: none
2017-04-14T09:14:42Z jackdaniel: you may have them emulated with cl-cont
2017-04-14T09:14:47Z jackdaniel: (library)
2017-04-14T09:15:23Z jusss: jackdaniel: what about TCO? SBCL seems do TCO
2017-04-14T09:16:10Z jackdaniel: standard doesn't guarantee tco, many implementations provide tco for high optimization values
2017-04-14T09:16:13Z phoe: jusss: it's not required.
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2017-04-14T09:17:03Z phoe: implementation-dependent, and it might nonetheless be not applied if the implementation doesn't know how to rely on it or if you want high debuggability.
2017-04-14T09:17:10Z phoe: don't rely on it in Common Lisp.
2017-04-14T09:17:21Z jusss: I see
2017-04-14T09:18:06Z phoe: here it's a possible optimization, not a way to build programs.
2017-04-14T09:18:10Z jusss: which implement you guys use?
2017-04-14T09:18:13Z phoe: SBCL
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2017-04-14T09:22:34Z shaftoe: sbcl
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2017-04-14T09:24:46Z jackdaniel: (https://xkcd.com/378/ - for context)
2017-04-14T09:25:34Z Josh_2: ^ noice
2017-04-14T09:30:52Z flip214: noise or nice?
2017-04-14T09:31:11Z phoe: nays
2017-04-14T09:31:16Z Josh_2: The latter
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2017-04-14T09:36:00Z jusss: why it always output upper-case?
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2017-04-14T09:36:32Z White_Flame: symbols by default are upper-cases by the reader, on input
2017-04-14T09:36:39Z White_Flame: *upper-cased
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2017-04-14T09:39:10Z jackdaniel: jusss: legacy kludge, you may change reader behavior though
2017-04-14T09:39:24Z ogamita: jusss: Now I (setf *print-case* :downcase) in my rc file, so when I copy-and-paste REPL output here, I don't get scolded at.
2017-04-14T09:39:45Z White_Flame: ogamita: wat
2017-04-14T09:40:13Z phoe: ogamita: wat
2017-04-14T09:40:16Z ogamita: jusss: youngsters always believe that uppercase is shouting, when it's actually just goold old IBM 1403 line printing.
2017-04-14T09:40:24Z phoe facepalms
2017-04-14T09:40:26Z beach finds it interesting that, after this long discussion about masamune, McCLIM, safety etc, jusss is recommended using FFI to build GUIs.
2017-04-14T09:41:07Z ogamita: jusss: you may consider http://cliki.net/pgl
2017-04-14T09:41:08Z White_Flame: ogamita: stop shouting "IBM" at me!
2017-04-14T09:41:12Z ogamita: :-)
2017-04-14T09:41:14Z phoe: beach: McCLIM is not production-ready yet AFAIK.
2017-04-14T09:41:31Z flip214: perhaps a bad question, or just showing my ignorance... but meta-classes are explained often "used for persistency".
2017-04-14T09:41:48Z beach: phoe: It definitely is.  It has problems, but then so do the GUI-based solutions.
2017-04-14T09:41:59Z flip214: what's the big difference to having a base class doing the persistency things, and deriving the other classes from that one?
2017-04-14T09:42:34Z phoe: flip214: slot access is transparent to you
2017-04-14T09:43:23Z ogamita: flip214: often you want to persist legacy classes (and other lisp objects).
2017-04-14T09:43:40Z beach: phoe: So, you see the difficulty of getting the message across, when not even you believe it.
2017-04-14T09:43:41Z beach: ?
2017-04-14T09:44:04Z flip214: phoe: well, I can just as easily (DEFMETHOD slot-value-using-class), right?
2017-04-14T09:44:05Z ogamita: flip214: if you have to inherit from a peristent superclass, then you have to re-implement a parallel class hierarchy and the mapping between the persistent and the legacy classes. This is what you find in Java.
2017-04-14T09:44:17Z White_Flame: btw, what interface does mcclim use to output its graphics?
2017-04-14T09:44:46Z ogamita: We'd need more backends for McClim too. Cocoa, iOS, Android, etc…
2017-04-14T09:44:51Z beach: White_Flame: The only currently working backend is based on CLX.
2017-04-14T09:45:01Z flip214: ogamita: but to use a meta-class, or to use another superclass, both means changing the class definition.
2017-04-14T09:45:08Z shka: wayland would be usefull
2017-04-14T09:45:15Z phoe: flip214: not really
2017-04-14T09:45:24Z beach: White_Flame: But there is work on some Windows backend, a framebuffer backend, etc.
2017-04-14T09:45:25Z flip214: ogamita: sorry, why would I need the parallel hierarchy?
2017-04-14T09:45:34Z phoe: you cannot get a different SETF-slot behaviour by just superclassing something
2017-04-14T09:45:39Z ogamita: flip214: indeed, and in either case, you can use the MOP to patch the classes at run-time for persistency! :-)
2017-04-14T09:45:58Z flip214: some GF calls would just as well be done by the meta-class OR the superclass...
2017-04-14T09:46:11Z phoe: flip214: if you declare a metaclass, you can decide what happens when you access slots.
2017-04-14T09:46:12Z ogamita: flip214: also, you still want to persist lists, vectors  and hash-table, so it's better to find a solution not needing either meta-classes or superclasses.
2017-04-14T09:46:22Z flip214: guess I'll have to re-read CLOS and MOP.
2017-04-14T09:46:42Z ogamita: weak hash-table are of great help then.
2017-04-14T09:46:50Z flip214: phoe: slot-value-using-class allows that without a meta-class too, right?
2017-04-14T09:47:29Z phoe: flip214: sure, but if you want to use MOP, then you don't really need anything else.
2017-04-14T09:47:36Z phoe: since everything else is implemented by MOP.
2017-04-14T09:47:55Z flip214: ogamita: yeah, standard-class and built-in objects, yeah.
2017-04-14T09:48:16Z flip214: hmmm, will re-read my books. thanks for now!
2017-04-14T09:50:39Z ogamita: flip214: it's also nice if we can get some help from the implementation.
2017-04-14T09:51:48Z ogamita: eg. persistency would be trivial if implemented along with the generational garbage collector, where the persistent objects would just be included in a persistent generation that would be saved automatically by the implementation.
2017-04-14T09:54:40Z shka: not trivial
2017-04-14T09:54:54Z shka: there are corner cases in this approach
2017-04-14T09:56:53Z axion: Mere hours before the annual lisp games competition :)
2017-04-14T09:58:57Z shka: as for MOP approach to persistant storage
2017-04-14T09:59:08Z shka: you may want to check ManaDB
2017-04-14T10:00:31Z phoe_: axion: how many hours again?
2017-04-14T10:01:07Z axion: phoe_: 18 until it begins
2017-04-14T10:03:04Z phoe: axion: 18 hours, correct?
2017-04-14T10:03:18Z axion: phoe: https://itch.io/jam/lisp-game-jam-2017-easy-mode
2017-04-14T10:03:56Z phoe: axion: thanks
2017-04-14T10:04:25Z axion: Big crowd this year. Join in and have some fun :)
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2017-04-14T10:04:56Z phoe: axion: I'm already in
2017-04-14T10:05:05Z phoe: oh, unless you mean #lisp in general
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2017-04-14T10:05:40Z axion: phoe: Oh, I don't see you registered
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2017-04-14T10:07:10Z phoe_: axion: I am flaming-bird there, the username phoe was taken.
2017-04-14T10:07:27Z axion: Ah yes I see. Nice :)
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2017-04-14T10:57:16Z phoe: uh
2017-04-14T10:57:21Z phoe: I just discovered this
2017-04-14T10:57:24Z phoe: (defmethod print-object ((object null) stream) (princ "()" stream))
2017-04-14T10:57:33Z phoe: and, to my surprise, it worked
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2017-04-14T11:00:26Z phoe: I need to find that part of the spec that listed all the things that are undefined
2017-04-14T11:00:57Z phoe: I wonder if I can conformingly define a PRINT-OBJECT method on class NULL
2017-04-14T11:02:36Z phoe: clhs 11.1.2.1.2
2017-04-14T11:02:36Z specbot: Constraints on the COMMON-LISP Package for Conforming Programs: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm
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2017-04-14T11:02:48Z phoe: "19. Defining a method for a standardized generic function which is applicable when all of the arguments are direct instances of standardized classes."
2017-04-14T11:02:56Z phoe: well, shit - I'm invoking the undefined now
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2017-04-14T11:06:37Z akkad: ,clhs undefined
2017-04-14T11:06:57Z Devon: Any advice on a quick ref for an occasional Lisper?
2017-04-14T11:10:12Z phoe: Devon: what do you mean?
2017-04-14T11:10:42Z phoe: "a quick ref" might mean http://clqr.boundp.org/
2017-04-14T11:10:50Z phoe: or it might mean asking minion for help
2017-04-14T11:10:53Z phoe: clhs adjoin
2017-04-14T11:10:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjoin.htm
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2017-04-14T11:23:47Z Devon: phoe: http://clqr.boundp.org looks good to me, thx!
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2017-04-14T14:44:40Z adlai wonders at the venn diagram of people who use coleslaw, and people who lurk in #coleslaw
2017-04-14T14:44:52Z adlai: (the latter currently consists of three people, including me)
2017-04-14T14:45:00Z adlai: and we're all silent lurkers
2017-04-14T14:45:12Z Bike: so #coleslaw is mostly people who don't use coleslaw?
2017-04-14T14:45:24Z adlai: who knows. i barely count as a user.
2017-04-14T14:45:27Z PuercoPop: adlai: there is a #coleslaw channel?
2017-04-14T14:45:31Z adlai: yes
2017-04-14T14:45:37Z Reinisch: I sometimes consider using coleslaw
2017-04-14T14:45:47Z Reinisch: I guess I could lurk there too
2017-04-14T14:46:32Z adlai: please do, once a critical mass is attained, conversation spontaneousy occurs
2017-04-14T14:46:36Z PuercoPop: Is it mentioned in the readme?
2017-04-14T14:47:50Z adlai: https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw#coleslaw
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2017-04-14T14:50:17Z PuercoPop: don't know how I missed it. Guess I should idle there in case there is a bug report
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2017-04-14T15:22:24Z phoe: hah, this is good
2017-04-14T15:23:16Z phoe: It doesn't matter that the tests I wrote aren't looking as well as I would like them to
2017-04-14T15:23:41Z phoe: what matters is the fact that they work - so I can do the refactor I want to do and then just run it again to make sure everything still works,.
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2017-04-14T16:22:43Z Ukari: I could call function with ((lambda () ())), but must use a funcall to call a closure.
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2017-04-14T16:23:04Z oleo: ya
2017-04-14T16:23:06Z Ukari: (funcall ((lambda (arg) (lambda () arg)) 3))
2017-04-14T16:23:20Z Ukari: is there any way to remove the funcall?
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2017-04-14T16:25:43Z Bike: not really, why?
2017-04-14T16:26:26Z Ukari: because it is too long to type funcall
2017-04-14T16:26:45Z beach: Ukari: Use Scheme instead of Common Lisp.
2017-04-14T16:26:46Z Bike: too bad.
2017-04-14T16:26:46Z Xach: you could write a function named F instead.
2017-04-14T16:26:58Z Xach: nobody would like to read your code, but it would be less typing.
2017-04-14T16:27:45Z phoe: Ukari: that's how Common Lisp works. FUNCALL there is mandatory, that's the cost. We have different namespaces for variables, functions and many other things, that's the benefit.
2017-04-14T16:27:58Z phoe: Basically - the Lisp-1 versus Lisp-2 debate.
2017-04-14T16:28:26Z jurov: you can use apply, it's shorter :D
2017-04-14T16:28:34Z phoe: jurov: not really, you need to use a list
2017-04-14T16:28:48Z jurov: aok
2017-04-14T16:28:48Z phoe: (funcall x y z) === (apply x y z ())
2017-04-14T16:29:05Z phoe: or (apply x y `(,z))
2017-04-14T16:29:11Z Ukari: but it is anonymous closure, why that relate to namespace?
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2017-04-14T16:30:27Z phoe: because that anonymous closure is not 1) a symbol, or 2) a lambda form.
2017-04-14T16:30:40Z phoe: these are the only two things that are allowed as the CAR of an evaluated list.
2017-04-14T16:30:49Z phoe: which is, in other words, a function call.
2017-04-14T16:31:26Z phoe: the moment you evaluate a list, its CAR must be a symbol or a list whose CAR is the symbol LAMBDA. otherwise it's an error.
2017-04-14T16:33:27Z phoe: and the closure that you get is a closure object. It is neither a symbol nor a lambda form, so it cannot be accepted as a CAR of a list that is being evaluated.
2017-04-14T16:36:38Z Ukari: phoe, i get it, thanks
2017-04-14T16:37:25Z Ukari: it means i could use a lambda list to wrap the closure, so i could call it without a obvious funcall
2017-04-14T16:41:28Z phoe: Ukari: ((lambda () (lambda (arg) (lambda () arg)) 3))
2017-04-14T16:41:32Z phoe: I guess something like that
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2017-04-14T16:41:37Z phoe: this evaluates to 3
2017-04-14T16:41:52Z Ukari: i try but what i get is still a closure
2017-04-14T16:42:00Z phoe: no no, check the parens.
2017-04-14T16:42:11Z phoe: the thing I posted evaluates to 3.
2017-04-14T16:44:01Z phoe: you have (lambda () arg) which has an unbound variable.
2017-04-14T16:44:18Z phoe: you have (lambda (arg) (lambda () arg)) which binds that variable.
2017-04-14T16:44:48Z phoe: ...oh wait.
2017-04-14T16:44:51Z phoe: maybe I'm simply wrong.
2017-04-14T16:44:54Z phoe: I think I am.
2017-04-14T16:44:56Z phoe: Teehee.
2017-04-14T16:45:01Z phoe goes back to playing with parens
2017-04-14T16:49:25Z phoe: Ukari: it's tricky.
2017-04-14T16:49:36Z phoe: ((lambda (arg) (lambda () arg)) 3) returns a function *object*.
2017-04-14T16:49:59Z phoe: And an anonymous function object - I don't know how we can call it by using just lambda.
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2017-04-14T16:51:36Z phoe: Looks like a funcall is mandatory here.
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2017-04-14T17:03:26Z phoe: Oh damn. I was struck by the static-vectors on SBCL thing.
2017-04-14T17:03:45Z phoe: I'm on 1.3.14.debian and clearing ~/.cache/common-lisp did not help.
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2017-04-14T17:04:15Z phoe: Lock on package SB-IMPL violated when interning %VECTOR-WIDETAG-AND-N-BITS while in package STATIC-VECTORS.
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2017-04-14T17:05:47Z phoe_: I will try updating all dists.
2017-04-14T17:07:09Z phoe: Okay - that fixed it.
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2017-04-14T17:43:43Z shrdlu68: How emacs-like is climacs?
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2017-04-14T17:45:02Z phoe: shrdlu68: #clim might be able to answer you best
2017-04-14T17:46:14Z shrdlu68: I just installed emacs from source and the lisp indetation is a little weird.
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2017-04-14T17:46:23Z phoe: shrdlu68: run slime.
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2017-04-14T17:49:55Z shrdlu68: phoe: Let me try it out.
2017-04-14T17:53:13Z shrdlu68: It works! But I don't like how it starts so many buffers.
2017-04-14T17:53:33Z phoe_: shrdlu68: you can close all REPLs and just leave the inferior lisp buffer.
2017-04-14T17:56:31Z shrdlu68: Huh, everything's back to normal now. Thanks.
2017-04-14T17:56:36Z Grue``: pretty sure you don't need to start slime to have correct lisp indentation
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2017-04-14T17:57:04Z shrdlu68: Grue``: Slime apparently did something there.
2017-04-14T17:57:35Z shrdlu68: Now the indentation has changed, even without launching slime explicitly with M-x slime
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2017-04-14T18:01:24Z shrdlu68: Yep, just commented out slime loading in .emacs and it went back to weird indentation. Turned it back on and behavior changed.
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2017-04-14T18:04:22Z Bike: slime's indentation is done in elisp, i don't think it needs a CL running
2017-04-14T18:06:10Z phoe: Bike: Slime connects to the running CL process to get information about the defined forms.
2017-04-14T18:06:42Z phoe: for example if you (defmacro foo ...) in CL, Slime is able to use this definition to properly indent the &body of the macro.
2017-04-14T18:07:01Z phoe: so yes, slime indentation is done in elisp, but it has a CL counterpart.
2017-04-14T18:07:26Z phoe: you can even see the thread there if you call (bt:all-threads).
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2017-04-14T18:14:09Z phoe: I have a plist, where keys are keywords and values are any objects.
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2017-04-14T18:15:17Z phoe: Is there a macro that will transform something like (with-vars-from-plist (foo bar baz) plist ...) into a LET where foo will be bound to the value associated to :foo in the plist, bar to :bar, baz to :baz?
2017-04-14T18:15:41Z phoe: so basically LET with a bunch of GETFs?
2017-04-14T18:17:42Z dlowe: (destructuring-bind (&key :foo :bar) plist)
2017-04-14T18:18:05Z dlowe: er, without the :
2017-04-14T18:19:04Z shrdlu68: That works great, and here I am thinking about symbol-macrolet.
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2017-04-14T18:20:16Z phoe: dlowe: wait, what?
2017-04-14T18:20:21Z phoe: destructuring-bind accepts &key?
2017-04-14T18:20:27Z phoe: clhs destructuring-bind
2017-04-14T18:20:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm
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2017-04-14T18:21:08Z phoe: WOAH WAIT WHAT
2017-04-14T18:21:11Z phoe is amazed
2017-04-14T18:21:18Z dlowe: :)
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2017-04-14T18:22:51Z phoe is truly having a moment of "how can this ancient dog keep on pulling these tricks on me"
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2017-04-14T18:26:34Z phoe: clhs 3.4.5
2017-04-14T18:26:35Z specbot: Destructuring Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_de.htm
2017-04-14T18:26:41Z phoe: first it says that &environment is not allowed
2017-04-14T18:26:50Z phoe: and then nonetheless puts &environment in the grabbar
2017-04-14T18:26:52Z phoe: grammar
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2017-04-14T18:27:41Z dlowe: it's not in the final term
2017-04-14T18:27:54Z dlowe: so it's still correct, just vacuous
2017-04-14T18:28:30Z dlowe: cut-and-paste strikes again :)
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2017-04-14T18:28:47Z kami: Good evening.
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2017-04-14T18:29:49Z shrdlu68: evening, kami
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2017-04-14T18:31:55Z phoe: xD
2017-04-14T18:31:56Z phoe: haha
2017-04-14T18:31:59Z phoe: kami: helo
2017-04-14T18:40:43Z phoe: I just realized that the name for CL-WHO is an acronym for Common Lisp - WITH-HTML-OUTPUT.
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2017-04-14T19:50:36Z gigamonkey: Dang it. I used to have a strong opinion on whether I prefered #'(lambda ...) or (lambda ...) but now I can't remember what it was.
2017-04-14T19:51:11Z tetero: gigamonkey: From what I've heard it seems #'() has it
2017-04-14T19:51:28Z tetero: But I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to Lisp :)
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2017-04-14T20:12:55Z phoe: gigamonkey: haha, I don't know that
2017-04-14T20:13:01Z phoe: maybe it's in your book
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2017-04-14T20:57:05Z Reinisch: I'm having trouble getting something to work. Let me know if this is the wrong place to ask about it.
2017-04-14T20:57:30Z phoe: Reinisch: show us the code
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2017-04-14T20:57:50Z Reinisch: I've defined a system and included the line :depends-on (#:com.gigamonkeys.test-framework)
2017-04-14T20:58:58Z Reinisch: :shadowing-import-from #:com.gigamonkeys.test #:deftest #:check)
2017-04-14T20:59:09Z phoe: Reinisch: http://paste.lisp.org
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2017-04-14T21:08:51Z Reinisch: thanks for taking a look: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344297
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2017-04-14T21:15:05Z phoe: Reinisch: looking now
2017-04-14T21:15:43Z phoe: Reinisch: are you using emacs?
2017-04-14T21:16:00Z phoe: with slime?
2017-04-14T21:16:00Z Reinisch: no, I'm using SLIMV and VIM
2017-04-14T21:16:23Z phoe: Reinisch: anyway
2017-04-14T21:16:27Z phoe: clhs macroexpand-1
2017-04-14T21:16:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2017-04-14T21:16:30Z phoe: macroexpand that DEFTEST form
2017-04-14T21:16:34Z phoe: and post what it expands into.
2017-04-14T21:16:50Z phoe: (macroexpand-1
2017-04-14T21:16:52Z phoe: uh
2017-04-14T21:17:01Z phoe: (macroexpand-1 '(deftest test-my-last ...))
2017-04-14T21:18:11Z Reinisch: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344297#1
2017-04-14T21:18:24Z phoe: there is no defun there
2017-04-14T21:18:38Z Bike: not like pcl, huh.
2017-04-14T21:18:40Z phoe: this LAMBDA that you see must be invoked differently.
2017-04-14T21:19:01Z phoe: look into the documentation for com.gigamonkeys.test on how to invoke that function.
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2017-04-14T21:19:17Z Bike: seems you do (test test-my-last) instead.
2017-04-14T21:19:25Z phoe: might be.
2017-04-14T21:19:32Z phoe: I don't know this testing framework.
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2017-04-14T21:19:55Z Reinisch: What's the Right Way(tm) to find this documentation?
2017-04-14T21:20:08Z phoe: Reinisch: where did you get this framework from?
2017-04-14T21:20:15Z phoe: is the source code for it documented?
2017-04-14T21:20:26Z Reinisch: I read through most of Practical Common Lisp
2017-04-14T21:20:40Z Reinisch: then I started trying to do 99 problems
2017-04-14T21:21:05Z Reinisch: then I thought... use com.gigamonkeys.test-framework from the book
2017-04-14T21:21:08Z phoe: ooh
2017-04-14T21:21:09Z phoe: http://quickdocs.org/monkeylib-test-framework/api
2017-04-14T21:21:16Z phoe: the protocol is somewhat documented.
2017-04-14T21:21:17Z phoe: this should help you.
2017-04-14T21:21:32Z Reinisch: so I ql:system-apropos "gigamonkeys"
2017-04-14T21:21:36Z Reinisch: and now I'm here
2017-04-14T21:21:39Z Reinisch: thx
2017-04-14T21:22:44Z Reinisch: also, how did you get to that documentation? through a quicklisp function? just googling?
2017-04-14T21:23:17Z Reinisch: I'm willing to RTFM, but in this case, I don't know where to find the manual
2017-04-14T21:23:36Z Reinisch: (or, didn't, before you showed it to me)
2017-04-14T21:24:00Z phoe: Reinisch: I googled "com.gigamonkeys.test"
2017-04-14T21:24:07Z phoe: but basically
2017-04-14T21:24:19Z phoe: SLIMV should let you go to the definition of the form you type
2017-04-14T21:24:42Z phoe: in SLIME it's M-. that jumps to the file the function/macro/variable is defined in
2017-04-14T21:24:50Z phoe: SLIMV should have an equivalent functionality
2017-04-14T21:25:07Z phoe: the documentation on Quickdocs (this service that I found for you) is generated from documentation strings
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2017-04-14T21:25:24Z phoe: and these are most commonly found in variable/function/macro/class/genericfunction definitions
2017-04-14T21:25:34Z phoe: so that's where I would begin searching for documentation.
2017-04-14T21:25:53Z phoe: even if they are not in docstrings, they might be in comments right above or inside definitions
2017-04-14T21:26:00Z phoe: (e.g. bordeaux-threads follows this style, IIRC)
2017-04-14T21:26:05Z Reinisch: okie dokie
2017-04-14T21:26:15Z phoe: and finally, there are external manuals for libraries in form of markdown or HTML files somewhere
2017-04-14T21:26:18Z phoe: tl;dr it's a giant mess
2017-04-14T21:26:23Z phoe: and I want to unify it one day
2017-04-14T21:26:34Z Reinisch: that's a good goal!
2017-04-14T21:28:59Z phoe: Reinisch: the respective project is already ongoing
2017-04-14T21:29:15Z phoe: phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-04-14T21:29:20Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo even
2017-04-14T21:29:25Z phoe: wanna join me the moment I'm ready to accept contributions?
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2017-04-14T21:33:25Z Reinisch: interesting
2017-04-14T21:33:44Z Reinisch: I have a feeling I wouldn't be much use to you
2017-04-14T21:34:04Z phoe: Reinisch: why is that?
2017-04-14T21:34:21Z Reinisch: I'm still wrangling with that silly test thing for one
2017-04-14T21:34:35Z Reinisch: and secondly, I'm quite the novice
2017-04-14T21:34:45Z phoe: Reinisch: both are very good
2017-04-14T21:35:14Z phoe: if I may make a request - please write down your complaints and all things you find confusing, uneasy, hard and badly done about Lisp documentation
2017-04-14T21:35:31Z phoe: if something is confusing, uneasy, ..., etc. for you, then it might be the same for other people who are learning Lisp
2017-04-14T21:35:38Z phoe: and it means these spots will need improvement.
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2017-04-14T21:36:18Z Reinisch: sounds like you and mazoe are working in similar veins
2017-04-14T21:36:52Z phoe: Reinisch: what is mazoe working on?
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2017-04-14T21:41:29Z Reinisch: helping out with people new to lisp
2017-04-14T21:42:08Z phoe: got it
2017-04-14T21:42:14Z phoe: we're not duplicating each other's efforts then
2017-04-14T21:42:22Z phoe: so far, I am parsing and editing the specification.
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2017-04-14T22:04:58Z Reinisch: ok.. I'm still somehow unable to figure this out
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2017-04-14T22:05:43Z Reinisch: maybe I don't understand what I'm reading in the documentation
2017-04-14T22:06:50Z Reinisch: it seems like I should be able to (test test-my-test), but lisp still complains that test-my-last is unbound
2017-04-14T22:08:51Z phoe: Reinisch: I really need to go to sleep now
2017-04-14T22:08:51Z phoe: but
2017-04-14T22:08:59Z phoe: have you imported the macro TEST?
2017-04-14T22:09:05Z phoe: s/macro/symbol/
2017-04-14T22:09:15Z Reinisch: also I can't find an equivalent look up symbol at point
2017-04-14T22:09:16Z phoe: because AFAIK you only imported DEFTEST and CHECK
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2017-04-14T22:09:41Z Reinisch: uh, correct
2017-04-14T22:09:50Z presiden: o/
2017-04-14T22:09:58Z phoe: ha, my eyes still got the juice in them
2017-04-14T22:10:10Z axion: You are going to have a hard time learning Common Lisp with slimv. I did it, but it was painful. I wish I started using Emacs sooner.
2017-04-14T22:10:12Z phoe: despite me being a 24 year old grandpa
2017-04-14T22:10:21Z Reinisch: but should work if I use fully qualified name, yeah? (com.gigamonkeys.test::test test-my-last)
2017-04-14T22:10:25Z phoe: axion: there's always spacemacs, and I like spacemacs.
2017-04-14T22:10:27Z phoe: Reinisch: should work, yes.
2017-04-14T22:10:34Z phoe: except that's one friggin' long name
2017-04-14T22:11:14Z Reinisch: that doesn't work though
2017-04-14T22:11:23Z phoe: Reinisch: what's the error?
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2017-04-14T22:15:34Z Reinisch: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344297#2
2017-04-14T22:18:18Z phoe: Reinisch: please bind *print-circle* to nil
2017-04-14T22:18:24Z phoe: and run the test again
2017-04-14T22:18:37Z phoe: and copy the failure message to paste.lisp.org again
2017-04-14T22:18:50Z phoe: it's pretty damn hard to debug with #1#s all over the place
2017-04-14T22:19:48Z axion: More like use an implementation with nicer errors
2017-04-14T22:19:55Z phoe: no
2017-04-14T22:19:58Z phoe: I know what's wrong
2017-04-14T22:20:00Z phoe: your test.
2017-04-14T22:20:42Z phoe: MY-LAST is expected to return "the last element of a list as a list", which is a bad way of putting, it returns the last cons of a list.
2017-04-14T22:20:56Z phoe: so, for '(a b c), for example, it will return (c).
2017-04-14T22:21:04Z phoe: and then you expect (c) to EQL c.
2017-04-14T22:21:32Z phoe: which obviously fails your test.
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2017-04-14T22:21:53Z phoe: so at least now you know the test framework is correct.
2017-04-14T22:22:03Z phoe: s/correct/working correctly/
2017-04-14T22:22:08Z axion: I suggest using SBCL and that would have been much more obvious
2017-04-14T22:22:23Z phoe: what implementation is this?
2017-04-14T22:23:05Z phoe: axion: ^
2017-04-14T22:23:28Z Reinisch: I'm using sbcl
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2017-04-14T22:23:59Z axion: Ok then, ignore me :)
2017-04-14T22:24:00Z phoe: yes, I actually suspected it's SBCL.
2017-04-14T22:24:31Z phoe: Reinisch: anyway, tl;dr your framework is working, you can keep on learning. :D
2017-04-14T22:25:10Z axion: There are way too many test frameworks for CL.
2017-04-14T22:27:40Z phoe: axion: because it's trivial to write one
2017-04-14T22:27:44Z phoe: look at how big 1am is
2017-04-14T22:28:02Z phoe: a semiexperienced lisper can write an equivalent of that in an hour
2017-04-14T22:28:17Z phoe: and boom, (incf *test-frameworks-count*)
2017-04-14T22:29:24Z axion: Well yeah, but it is quite lacking
2017-04-14T22:29:56Z axion: like no suites, or more advanced tests. it's as minimal as it can get, which is probably not what you want for robust testing
2017-04-14T22:30:00Z Reinisch: holy moly, I think it's working
2017-04-14T22:30:14Z axion: I moreso meant all the other ones :)
2017-04-14T22:30:45Z Reinisch: also, since I assume all that #4# nonsense was supposed to be helpful output, do you know what it means?
2017-04-14T22:30:52Z phoe: Reinisch: yes
2017-04-14T22:30:55Z phoe: clhs ##
2017-04-14T22:30:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhp.htm
2017-04-14T22:31:08Z Reinisch: and doing (setf *print-circle* nil) seemed to do nothing.
2017-04-14T22:31:13Z phoe: well, I was wrong then.
2017-04-14T22:31:17Z phoe: don't mind me.
2017-04-14T22:31:19Z phoe: but:
2017-04-14T22:31:23Z Reinisch: holy moly my brain is fried
2017-04-14T22:31:26Z phoe: Lisp has a thing called reader macros.
2017-04-14T22:31:44Z phoe: that cause the Lisp reader to do different things than execute its normal algorithm.
2017-04-14T22:32:34Z phoe: by calling #1= you can tell the Lisp reader to remember that the next object is reads has "number one".
2017-04-14T22:32:51Z phoe: and you can tell the reader that it should insert the same object again in the spot where you call #1#.
2017-04-14T22:33:09Z phoe: so you can insert the same object in multiple places.
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2017-04-14T22:34:16Z Reinisch: ok
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2017-04-14T22:34:49Z phoe: like, reading "(#1=a b c d #1# e f g #1#)" will give you (A B C D A E F G A).
2017-04-14T22:35:07Z phoe: but, if you are just learning Lisp, don't thinkg about it too much.
2017-04-14T22:35:24Z phoe: reader macros are some higher-level magic and you don't need to know much about them just yet.
2017-04-14T22:35:58Z phoe: for now: just know that they exist and they can do absolutely crazy stuff.
2017-04-14T22:36:55Z phoe: sleep well guys
2017-04-14T22:37:06Z phoe (sleep (* 3600 7))
2017-04-14T22:37:12Z Reinisch: thanks so much for all your help phoe
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2017-04-14T22:37:30Z phoe: Reinisch: feel free to fire other questions here
2017-04-14T22:37:33Z phoe: or at #clnoobs
2017-04-14T22:37:40Z phoe: we'll try to help you.
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2017-04-14T23:21:36Z enzuru: ./quit
2017-04-14T23:21:40Z enzuru: o_O fail
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2017-04-14T23:57:54Z akkad: irc is hard
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2017-04-15T01:11:36Z nyef`: So... how do we make sound work in Mezzano on VirtualBox/
2017-04-15T01:11:37Z nyef`: ?
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2017-04-15T02:41:17Z akkad: like to immitate the sound of a Cadr lisp machine?
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2017-04-15T03:47:28Z gabriel_laddel_p: froggey: around?
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2017-04-15T03:50:32Z gabriel_laddel_p: froggey: I was wondering if there were some more details on how to boot to mezzeno from USB?
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2017-04-15T04:07:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-15T04:11:28Z gabriel_laddel_p: beach: mailed.
2017-04-15T04:11:40Z beach: Thanks.
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2017-04-15T06:54:39Z shaftoe: what does the spec function do... it's difficult to track down documentation searching for "lisp spec"
2017-04-15T06:55:07Z shaftoe: clhs spec
2017-04-15T06:55:08Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for spec.
2017-04-15T06:55:15Z Bike: there is no built in function called that.
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2017-04-15T07:03:41Z shrdlu68: Good morning everyone
2017-04-15T07:05:18Z presiden: o/
2017-04-15T07:07:14Z beach: Hello shrdlu68.
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2017-04-15T08:21:44Z Devon: Know of a Perl interpreter, translator or parser in Lisp?
2017-04-15T08:23:03Z jackdaniel: cl-ppcre implements pcre, I'm not aware of Perl implementation in Lisp
2017-04-15T08:23:59Z python476: hi
2017-04-15T08:24:14Z jackdaniel: hey
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2017-04-15T08:36:49Z beach: Hello python476.
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2017-04-15T08:37:22Z loke`````: Beach
2017-04-15T08:38:09Z beach: loke`````: What's up?
2017-04-15T08:38:26Z loke`````: beach: Nothing much. Been out biking, and now taking a look at mezzano
2017-04-15T08:38:36Z beach: Great!
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2017-04-15T08:40:42Z loke_mezzano: Hello
2017-04-15T08:40:47Z loke_mezzano: It works :-)
2017-04-15T08:40:52Z beach: Seems that way.
2017-04-15T08:41:26Z loke_mezzano: It's really quite impressive, the work he's done.
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2017-04-15T08:42:32Z beach: So I understand.  I haven't had time to check it out yet.
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2017-04-15T08:47:01Z loke`````: There is a full network stack in here too...
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2017-04-15T08:57:23Z akkad: there is cl-python
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2017-04-15T09:24:18Z Devon: Ok, no Perl parser, how about a BNF parser generator?
2017-04-15T09:26:23Z jackdaniel: http://www.cliki.net/parser%20generator
2017-04-15T09:27:19Z jackdaniel: I've used  esrap – not bnf but pacrat – very pleasent to use
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2017-04-15T09:46:51Z Devon: jackdaniel: thanks, instead of a dozen or so choices, it's down to esrap and esrap-liquid… ¿where do they get these names?
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2017-04-15T09:59:44Z Devon: weird, why not consume zero:  esrap-liquid-20161031-git/README.md; (!! <EXPR>) matches, whenever EXPR fails and consumes one character
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2017-04-15T10:01:03Z python476: cl-python being a parser or hooks into the sbcl python compiler ?
2017-04-15T10:05:56Z akkad: cl-python being a full python 2.7 on cl
2017-04-15T10:06:07Z akkad: written for ACL but works on sbcl
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2017-04-15T10:28:56Z python476: akkad: hah, I should have guessed
2017-04-15T10:29:57Z phoe: python476: the Python known in SBCL is not Python the programming language
2017-04-15T10:30:28Z phoe: python476: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~ram/pub/lfp.ps
2017-04-15T10:30:39Z python476: phoe: that's what I said I believe
2017-04-15T10:30:50Z phoe: woah, then don't mind me
2017-04-15T10:30:57Z python476: I've skimmed the python paper a while ago
2017-04-15T10:30:59Z phoe: I'm still waking up and not reading stuff properly
2017-04-15T10:31:05Z python476: phoe: no worries friend
2017-04-15T10:31:17Z python476: Im guilty of this too often
2017-04-15T10:35:15Z akkad: yeah not the cmucl optimizer
2017-04-15T10:37:31Z python476: how hard would it be to extend cl-python to python3 support ?
2017-04-15T10:37:54Z python476: python2 and 3 have some overlap (many things have been ported as normal libraries)
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2017-04-15T12:30:17Z shaftoe: how would i send a keystroke, in this case, ctrl-p
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2017-04-15T12:55:49Z Xach: shaftoe: to whom?
2017-04-15T12:56:54Z shaftoe: i'm looping linedit, and i'm trying to pre-fill the input with previous command (with ctrl-p)
2017-04-15T13:04:11Z akkad: python476: real issue is all those python libs in c
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2017-04-15T13:28:27Z froggey: here is Iota, an LLVM to Common Lisp transpiler: https://github.com/froggey/Iota
2017-04-15T13:28:36Z froggey: now you can run doom or quake in your favourite cl implementation
2017-04-15T13:28:52Z froggey: it needs more work before it's really usable, but can be made to build some software with effort
2017-04-15T13:29:20Z akkad: froggey: nice work
2017-04-15T13:31:17Z froggey: thanks, it's a start
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2017-04-15T13:37:11Z mood: froggey: Awesome!
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2017-04-15T13:38:57Z akkad: so just clang is supported? or could any llvm supported language work?
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2017-04-15T13:41:03Z froggey: I've only tried clang, but it should support anything that generates LLVM IR, as long as it doesn't do anything too unusual
2017-04-15T13:41:21Z akkad: how long did this take to make?
2017-04-15T13:42:18Z beach: froggey: Good work!
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2017-04-15T13:43:16Z froggey: a few weekends
2017-04-15T13:44:01Z froggey: no runtime code generation, no shared libraries, no exceptions (yet, emscripten has a way to convert them into something that can probably be translated)
2017-04-15T13:44:59Z jackdaniel: great job
2017-04-15T13:46:53Z brucem: froggey: You might want to consider musl like emscripten does. (I did the initial conversion of emscripten to using musl a couple of years ago.) ...
2017-04-15T13:50:17Z froggey: isn't musl heavily linux specific? newlib pretty much worked out of the box
2017-04-15T13:50:22Z brucem: froggey: And I think you're defaulting to the debug build there with your build-llvm.sh script ...
2017-04-15T13:51:17Z froggey: I like debug builds, makes things easier to debug :)
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2017-04-15T13:52:03Z brucem: Sure, but it is much bigger and much slower (for your users, who may just want to run it). :)
2017-04-15T13:52:51Z jackdaniel: brucem: it's still demo. If it breaks for them, debug information will help to troubleshot errors not reproducible on froggey machine and fix them
2017-04-15T13:52:55Z pjb: shaftoe: you want to fill the history. check: https://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/history.html#SEC11 (Sorry, I don't know the linedit equivalent page, but I hear it's compatible replacement for readline so the readline doc should do).
2017-04-15T13:53:12Z froggey: ah well. a pile of shell scripts probably isn't the best way to drive this in the first place
2017-04-15T13:53:17Z shaftoe: pjb: cheers
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2017-04-15T14:23:23Z phoe: froggey: woah
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2017-04-15T14:58:26Z varjag: froggey: very cool
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2017-04-15T15:26:54Z burton`: How does one stop hunchentoot from logging to the console?
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2017-04-15T15:31:22Z burton`: got it: set :access-log-destination to nil when creating the acceptor.
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2017-04-15T15:35:05Z phoe: burton`: probably give it a different logging stream
2017-04-15T15:35:32Z phoe: I guess it uses *standard-output*, you could tell it to use (make-broadcast-stream) instead which will effectively redirect everything nowhere
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2017-04-15T16:20:03Z shka: hey folks
2017-04-15T16:20:17Z shka: what do you prefer: open-geneva or codex
2017-04-15T16:20:27Z shka: please, motivate your choice
2017-04-15T16:20:31Z shka: :-)
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2017-04-15T16:48:10Z _user-: Hello, I am trying to make a lisp grammar parser in python: https://pastebin.com/PVr7irPu can someone please tell me where I am wrong?
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2017-04-15T16:48:36Z _user-: The library I am using is https://github.com/erikrose/parsimonious which is a parsing expression grammar
2017-04-15T16:49:33Z Bike: is this not a python question
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2017-04-15T16:49:46Z _user-: no, it's more about the way to represent lisp in a grammar
2017-04-15T16:49:49Z _user-: it just happens to be in python
2017-04-15T16:50:38Z Bike: oh ok. so this says an expression is either a symbol, a list, or "(" expression ")", right?
2017-04-15T16:50:53Z _user-: yeah
2017-04-15T16:51:00Z _user-: from what I understand of the BNF
2017-04-15T16:51:08Z Bike: but then list is just defined as "(" expression ")" again.
2017-04-15T16:51:56Z _user-: yeah, that is problematic
2017-04-15T16:52:08Z Bike: a basic lisp grammar is more like expression := atom | "(" expression* ")"
2017-04-15T16:52:11Z _user-: I somehow need to be able to define expressions as being nestable, the key is to use lists somehow
2017-04-15T16:52:42Z Bike: dunno how you do kleene star in this thing though.
2017-04-15T16:53:08Z _user-: to match one or more, it's just regex, so you would do the +
2017-04-15T16:53:17Z _user-: To match zero or more, it is *
2017-04-15T16:54:04Z Bike: from the github readme it looks like you just write *, but not as a regex.
2017-04-15T16:54:15Z _user-: Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry!
2017-04-15T16:54:32Z _user-: I meant to say it is like regex, not that it is literally a regex
2017-04-15T16:54:41Z Bike: so you'd have EXPRESSION = ATOM / LPAREN EXPRESSION* RPAREN
2017-04-15T16:54:49Z Bike: (and ATOM = SYMBOL / NUMBER probably.)
2017-04-15T16:54:58Z _user-: I have written, that, but the parser has a problem with that for some reason
2017-04-15T16:55:59Z Bike: well, if your example expression is (+ 1 (* a b)), you have the problem that your definition of SYMBOL only includes alphanumeric-only words
2017-04-15T16:56:10Z Bike: so there's nothing to parse + and * as
2017-04-15T16:56:14Z _user-: Yeah, I haven't even got there yet
2017-04-15T16:56:26Z _user-: I'm just trying to parse (func a (func b c))
2017-04-15T16:56:55Z Bike: ok, well... you know nobody's gonna be able to help based on "the parser has a problem with that", i'm sure.
2017-04-15T16:57:04Z _user-: :D
2017-04-15T16:57:17Z _user-: one sec
2017-04-15T16:57:43Z _user-: https://pastebin.com/NcR1iUAg
2017-04-15T16:57:49Z _user-: I can't figure out for the life of me what the error means
2017-04-15T16:57:59Z Bike: and i'm sure the grammar is fine conceptually, given how simple it is, so you're probably getting into python help territory.
2017-04-15T16:58:19Z Bike: That... might be saying you have a stray (
2017-04-15T16:58:36Z _user-: I don't even get to parse, that's as soon as I execute the repl
2017-04-15T16:58:53Z _user-: Maybe this is an x, y problem
2017-04-15T16:58:57Z _user-: here's what I'm ultimately trying to do
2017-04-15T16:58:58Z Bike: it's trying to parse something, clearly.
2017-04-15T16:59:09Z Bike: maybe it's trying to parse your rules and failing.
2017-04-15T16:59:19Z _user-: that is what is going on, I just dont understand why
2017-04-15T16:59:26Z _user-: I emailed the author, maybe he has an idea
2017-04-15T16:59:27Z Bike: maybe / has a higher precedence than sequencing.
2017-04-15T16:59:41Z _user-: hmm, that could be true
2017-04-15T16:59:51Z _user-: so perhaps what I could do is make yet another item?
2017-04-15T16:59:59Z _user-: like some sort of composition?
2017-04-15T17:00:20Z Bike: LIST = "(" EXPRESSION* ")", EXPRESSION = ATOM / LIST
2017-04-15T17:00:33Z shka: uh
2017-04-15T17:00:51Z shka: i thought that parsing lisp is really, really trivial
2017-04-15T17:01:05Z Bike: basic s expressions are, yeah.
2017-04-15T17:01:10Z _user-: Bike: that is a good idea, let me try
2017-04-15T17:01:41Z Bike: the readme also says you can use (unquoted) parentheses for grouping.
2017-04-15T17:01:46Z _user-: Bike: I have been working on this problem for over a week straight
2017-04-15T17:01:56Z _user-: You have just helped me solve it, i think
2017-04-15T17:02:00Z _user-: thank you a billion!!!
2017-04-15T17:02:14Z Bike: i take checks or credit
2017-04-15T17:02:22Z _user-: :D
2017-04-15T17:02:48Z _user-: now I have to make an abstract syntax tree, and hopefully an eval'r
2017-04-15T17:03:10Z _user-: okay before I go any farther though, I should ask you what you think of my project, maybe there is a smarter way for my end goal
2017-04-15T17:03:18Z Bike: i don't know what you're doing.
2017-04-15T17:03:21Z _user-: so basically, I want to recreate the idea of emacs in a browser form
2017-04-15T17:03:41Z _user-: so, I start with QT, and then I will implement a lisp interpreter, and then make some important functions for controlling "buffers" and then build it up from there
2017-04-15T17:03:49Z shka: right
2017-04-15T17:03:52Z _user-: I know about smoke, but it doesn't support QT5
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2017-04-15T17:04:03Z shka: ignore smoke
2017-04-15T17:04:04Z _user-: and I couldn't find any other bindings
2017-04-15T17:04:12Z shka: wanna finish that in 1/5 of time?
2017-04-15T17:04:18Z shka: use ECL
2017-04-15T17:04:34Z _user-: embeddable common lisp?
2017-04-15T17:04:36Z shka: it compiles down to C++ code, has bindings to Qt
2017-04-15T17:04:38Z shka: yup
2017-04-15T17:04:43Z Bike: C code.
2017-04-15T17:04:51Z shka: and you will already have full implementation of cl
2017-04-15T17:04:58Z Bike: i don't know if it can do C++.
2017-04-15T17:05:16Z shka: Bike: nah, it can be compiled with C++ switch and it can talk C++
2017-04-15T17:05:21Z Bike: oh, good.
2017-04-15T17:05:23Z _user-: I see
2017-04-15T17:05:25Z shka: yup
2017-04-15T17:05:32Z shka: it is also quite mature
2017-04-15T17:05:33Z _user-: that is a good idea, thank you
2017-04-15T17:05:55Z Bike: it's very easy to make a basic lisp interpreter, but a good implementation with all the bells and whistles, and a compiler, takes more time
2017-04-15T17:05:57Z shka: damn, it even has quicklisp so you won't have to install it yourself :D
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2017-04-15T17:06:14Z _user-: yeah, I figured I could not make a good implementation of lisp myself
2017-04-15T17:06:19Z _user-: I searched a long time before deciding to try it
2017-04-15T17:06:36Z Bike: educational to whip something up though.
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2017-04-15T17:06:47Z shka: well, I would recommend going with ECL though
2017-04-15T17:07:23Z shka: it has few good things in it
2017-04-15T17:07:39Z _user-: It's an idea, I'll have to learn C, and how to bind it etc, this will not be a short journey :D
2017-04-15T17:08:21Z shka: sure, but Qt is actually good way to start with C++
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2017-04-15T17:09:04Z shka: it is nicely documented, not overly cluttered with templates, has everything you usually need
2017-04-15T17:09:05Z _user-: so let me make sure I understand how this works
2017-04-15T17:09:22Z Bike: i thought Qt used a bunch of macros for introspection to make it C++-but-more. maybe that's just internally though.
2017-04-15T17:09:27Z _user-: I basically use "embeddable lisp" to transform my lisp --> c code
2017-04-15T17:09:34Z _user-: and then from my qt I would call my functions?
2017-04-15T17:09:57Z shka: _user-: try to google EQL5
2017-04-15T17:10:16Z shka: ecl has it's own bindings for qt
2017-04-15T17:11:05Z shka: Bike: it is true, but you actually don't need to use it in lisp code (because lisp is already very dynamic language)
2017-04-15T17:11:07Z _user-: this is way way over my head
2017-04-15T17:11:31Z shka: _user-: actually, it is not that complex
2017-04-15T17:11:34Z Bike: if you wanna do this you gotta learn to swim, i guess.
2017-04-15T17:11:35Z _user-: shka: so what you are saying is that one can directly call qt functions from lisp?
2017-04-15T17:11:50Z shka: almost
2017-04-15T17:11:59Z _user-: Such is programming :D, I've been doing it so many years and I still feel so noob
2017-04-15T17:11:59Z shka: but mostly true
2017-04-15T17:12:55Z shka: anyway, don't make it more complicated than it has to be, i would pick ECL for anything Qt releated nowdays
2017-04-15T17:13:20Z shka: also, i like idea of lispified web browser
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2017-04-15T17:14:05Z _user-: yeah, I want to create the basis for an ecosystem of packages that can interact with the browser
2017-04-15T17:14:11Z _user-: I also have some interesting ideas for features
2017-04-15T17:14:48Z _user-: for example, hooks to split the page stuff like that
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2017-04-15T17:15:01Z _user-: I guess most of this stuff is already done with browser plugins, but I think it would still be cool
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2017-04-15T17:32:33Z Baggers: Under sbcl (format "~a" some-instance-of-a-condition) seems to be an easy way to get the condition's report as a string. Is this portable & is there a better way?
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2017-04-15T17:34:49Z Bike: princ?
2017-04-15T17:35:35Z Baggers: Bike: that will print it, but will return the original condition. I'd like the report as a string
2017-04-15T17:35:43Z Bike: princ-to-string
2017-04-15T17:35:52Z Baggers: ah my bad my example should have been (format nil "~a" condition)
2017-04-15T17:35:59Z Bike: anyway, yes, it should be portable
2017-04-15T17:36:07Z Baggers: Bike: perfect :) thankyou
2017-04-15T17:36:13Z Bike: if you print a condition with *print-escape* nil, more broadly
2017-04-15T17:36:34Z Baggers: and *print-readably* to nil too IRRC
2017-04-15T17:36:38Z Baggers: #IIRC
2017-04-15T17:36:53Z Bike: from princ, yes, but escape is the one controlling condition printing i think.
2017-04-15T17:37:04Z Baggers: nice
2017-04-15T17:38:26Z Baggers: thanks again
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2017-04-15T18:02:35Z _user-: can someone help me understand the requirements here: https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5, what is ECL threads, and how would I install it?
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2017-04-15T18:11:53Z varjag: ECL is a common lisp implementation
2017-04-15T18:12:05Z varjag: ecl threads are threads interface in ecl
2017-04-15T18:12:38Z varjag: i think it is in default configuration unless you disable it during build
2017-04-15T18:13:44Z _user-: so, what would I need to install then?
2017-04-15T18:13:54Z _user-: it says "requirements", so I assume it doesn't come with the source
2017-04-15T18:13:57Z _user-: I have t oinstall ECL?
2017-04-15T18:15:37Z varjag: yes
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2017-04-15T20:58:10Z daemoz: Is there anyone on here than can help me get mezzano up-and-running? When booting the image from either virtualbox or qemu I get put at a SYS.INT prompt.
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2017-04-16T01:13:48Z afidegnum: hello, anyone online?
2017-04-16T01:13:58Z muyinliu: y
2017-04-16T01:14:09Z muyinliu: what's your problem?
2017-04-16T01:14:42Z afidegnum: muyinliu: hi
2017-04-16T01:15:06Z afidegnum: i m looking for a parenscript tutorial which i will use to generate slideshows
2017-04-16T01:15:09Z afidegnum: dynamic lists
2017-04-16T01:15:12Z afidegnum: and possible menus
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2017-04-16T01:16:21Z muyinliu: Sorry, I'm not familiar with parenscript...
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2017-04-16T02:20:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-16T02:24:41Z vtomole: Hey beach how's SICL going?
2017-04-16T02:25:22Z beach: vtomole: Slow but steady progress, mainly on the Cleavir part.  Bike is going to do some significant work on it in the near future.
2017-04-16T02:27:15Z beach: Right now, I am mostly working on the incremental Common Lisp parser of Second Climacs.
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2017-04-16T02:29:31Z vtomole: Why incremental?
2017-04-16T02:29:51Z beach: So that the entire editor buffer does not have to be re-parsed for every keystroke.
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2017-04-16T02:31:33Z vtomole: Are you using any generators?
2017-04-16T02:31:41Z beach: No.
2017-04-16T02:31:53Z beach: This is an unrelated question, right?
2017-04-16T02:33:01Z vtomole: Maybe. I was refering to parser generators.
2017-04-16T02:33:10Z beach: Ah, I see.
2017-04-16T02:33:36Z beach: No, the new thing about the incremental Common Lisp parser in Second Climacs is that it uses the only true way of parsing Common Lisp code, namely the Common Lisp function READ.
2017-04-16T02:35:15Z vtomole: I thought there was only one way, with the consistency of the syntax and all.
2017-04-16T02:35:42Z beach: Yes, basically only one true way, namely using READ.
2017-04-16T02:35:51Z beach: Existing editors all fake it.
2017-04-16T02:36:09Z vtomole: even emacs?
2017-04-16T02:36:18Z beach: Yes, it uses regular expressions.
2017-04-16T02:39:39Z beach: You can easily check that.  If you type `(let ((prog1' and then a newline, you will see that it treats `(prog1' as call to the special operator, both when it comes to highlighting and when it comes to indentation.
2017-04-16T02:40:12Z vtomole: Allright i'll try it. How difficult would it be to parse non-lisp syntax, say ML syntax, without read macros?
2017-04-16T02:40:43Z beach: Other languages are both simpler and harder, but especially different.
2017-04-16T02:41:01Z beach: Since they have a fixed grammar, they are easier.
2017-04-16T02:41:18Z beach: But then, the grammar can be very complicated, as in the case of C++, so that makes it harder.
2017-04-16T02:42:02Z vtomole: It seems like writing parsers is the most compilcated parts of writing non-lisp compilers. Am i wrong?
2017-04-16T02:42:24Z beach: Yes, you are wrong. :)  That used to be the case a few decades ago.
2017-04-16T02:42:45Z vtomole: What changed?
2017-04-16T02:42:52Z beach: Nowadays, compiler optimizations dominate both the human effort and the execution time.
2017-04-16T02:43:13Z beach: At the time, the existing architectures didn't require all these optimizations.
2017-04-16T02:43:31Z beach: A memory access had about the same cost as a register operation then.
2017-04-16T02:43:54Z beach: Plus, we care more about speed these days.
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2017-04-16T02:49:12Z beach: The other thing that has changed is that we have better parsing technology these days, but I don't know to what extent existing compilers use those techniques.  At the time, computers were very limited in terms of performance, so we needed techniques such as LALR(1).
2017-04-16T02:49:35Z beach: But such techniques limit the way a grammar can be written, which complicates writing it.
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2017-04-16T02:50:25Z beach: Now, it is more practical (because the execution time of the parser no longer matters much) to use better techniques such as GLR, combinator parsing, Earley parsing, etc.
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2017-04-16T02:54:30Z vtomole: Could compiler optimization techniques be easier in the near future too?
2017-04-16T02:55:09Z beach: Probably not.  If anything, the problem is getting harder with more complex architectures.
2017-04-16T02:55:58Z beach: Though, some things have been made simpler.  Instruction scheduling is now done by the processor during execution, so there is less need for that.
2017-04-16T02:56:12Z vtomole: I've heard some people considering using machine learning for optimizing.
2017-04-16T02:57:30Z beach: Maybe so.  One of my areas of expertise is algorithms and data structures, so I am not really into AI-related stuff.
2017-04-16T02:57:52Z Bike: how does that work, exactly?
2017-04-16T02:58:48Z beach doesn't know.
2017-04-16T02:59:31Z beach: Bike: Do you remember Marco Heisig from ELS?
2017-04-16T02:59:51Z Bike: mm... don't think so
2017-04-16T03:00:05Z Bike: oh, femlisp. yeah, i talked with him some.
2017-04-16T03:00:18Z beach: Tall, cheerful, German guy.  He was there with his girlfriend.
2017-04-16T03:00:35Z vtomole: I'm not familiar with it either, just heard it in passing, but the way machine learning works is using a lot of data to recongize patterns. So i'm guessing that you feed  a neural network examples of super optimized code so that it can learn how to do them.
2017-04-16T03:01:14Z Bike: was he the presenter of the femlisp talk or was that neuss
2017-04-16T03:01:26Z beach: That was Neuss.
2017-04-16T03:01:26Z Bike: and that's a pretty optimistic idea of how compilers work
2017-04-16T03:01:31Z Bike: oh, ok. then no, i don't.
2017-04-16T03:01:38Z Bike: i talked with neuss then.
2017-04-16T03:02:22Z beach: Bike: He sent me an email about a technique for doing compile-time type checking in sort of an implementation-independent way.  It could be used in compiler macros to avoid putting the burden on later optimization phases when types are known at compile time.
2017-04-16T03:02:42Z Bike: interesting.
2017-04-16T03:03:03Z beach: It is really clever stuff, though somewhat limited usefulness at the moment, due to limited implementation.  I'll ask him if I can forward his message to you.
2017-04-16T03:04:17Z Bike: cool
2017-04-16T03:04:29Z beach: vtomole: To me, that sounds like a project in order to use a maximum number of fad words to use in a grant application.  I might be wrong, but it just isn't what I am into.
2017-04-16T03:05:18Z Bike: i can vaguely imagine using a classifier on code samples to pigeonhole it into classes prone to whatever optimization, but i'd need to see a paper or something, probably
2017-04-16T03:05:57Z Bike: the most i've heard of neural networks for optimization is that some branch predictors use them (and they're simple enough that i want to use scare quotes around "neural" even more than usual)
2017-04-16T03:06:24Z beach: Bike: Marco's main idea is to use CONSTANTP at compile time, like this: (constantp `(if (typep ,EXPR ',TYPE) t (gensym)) env)
2017-04-16T03:06:50Z beach: If the Common Lisp implementation is clever enough, this is a way to determine type at compile time.
2017-04-16T03:07:39Z Bike: has he tried this?
2017-04-16T03:08:27Z beach: It works only in SBCL, and only if EXPR is a constant expression.
2017-04-16T03:08:44Z beach: So he advocates better implementations of CONSTANTP.
2017-04-16T03:08:57Z Bike: and, well, in that case it's more like a hack to get around the lack of environment accessors.
2017-04-16T03:09:09Z Bike: ...i gues snot if expr is more complicated, but i dunno.
2017-04-16T03:09:16Z beach: Oh, definitely a hack, yes.
2017-04-16T03:09:44Z beach: But it makes it portable in a sense.
2017-04-16T03:09:53Z Bike: the problem with doing type stuff in compiler macros is that then you have to do more or less the same thing later, once t ypes are inferred.
2017-04-16T03:10:12Z beach: Indeed.
2017-04-16T03:10:33Z beach: So it might become important to have the code in a single place.  But that might be tricky of course.
2017-04-16T03:10:54Z beach: In the case of that example, the expression would have to be compiled.
2017-04-16T03:11:27Z beach: I mean, imagine there is a COND and not an IF.  It would have to be macroexpanded, etc, etc.
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2017-04-16T04:32:12Z shaftoe: if you were writing a new tcp server today, would you recommend usocket, iolib or cl-async?
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2017-04-16T04:38:25Z aeth: shaftoe: you might not have to choose. https://github.com/usocket/usocket/commit/571ffa15a241c45f7e8bc3602d9fdb658a10fada
2017-04-16T04:39:20Z aeth: That usocket commit is called "Initial support (template code) for IOlib"
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2017-04-16T04:41:34Z shaftoe: ahh
2017-04-16T04:41:55Z shaftoe: i know usocket is the veteran, but iolib and cl-async seem to have better docs/examples
2017-04-16T04:42:03Z aeth: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/usocket.asd
2017-04-16T04:42:21Z shaftoe: interesting
2017-04-16T04:42:31Z aeth: It looks like it can use iolib
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2017-04-16T04:44:28Z aeth: Hmm... I'm not sure if this makes usocket more desirable over iolib or less.
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2017-04-16T04:50:11Z borei: hi all
2017-04-16T04:50:22Z beach: Hello borei.
2017-04-16T04:50:44Z borei: i have quick question about object initialization
2017-04-16T04:50:54Z borei: i have class
2017-04-16T04:51:04Z borei: (defclass vector-r () ((dim :initarg :dim :reader dim)))
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2017-04-16T04:51:13Z borei: "(defclass vector-r () ((dim :initarg :dim :reader dim)))"
2017-04-16T04:51:15Z borei: damn
2017-04-16T04:51:26Z borei: there is :dim initarg
2017-04-16T04:51:32Z borei: \dim
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2017-04-16T04:51:52Z borei: and
2017-04-16T04:51:57Z borei: (defclass vector-3d (vector-r) () (:default-initargs :dim 3))
2017-04-16T04:52:29Z borei: but technically i can create object vector-3d with dim != 3
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2017-04-16T04:52:59Z borei: and i can't find how to avoid that situation
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2017-04-16T04:53:57Z beach: borei: Make a common superclass that does not have that slot.
2017-04-16T04:54:26Z beach: borei: Then make it a slot with :ALLOCATION :CLASS in vector-3d.
2017-04-16T04:54:53Z beach: borei: Alternatively, define a method on DIM, specialized to vector-3d that returns 3.
2017-04-16T04:57:42Z aeth: borei: What is this for? Most code I've seen uses a vector to represent a vector, although you might have a reason for writing a CLOS representation.
2017-04-16T04:57:55Z aeth: One of the big mistakes I made as a beginner in CL was reimplementing things built into the language when I didn't need to.
2017-04-16T04:58:14Z borei: learning CL
2017-04-16T04:59:05Z borei: makeing linear-algebra package (again learning purpose)
2017-04-16T04:59:14Z borei: making ^^^
2017-04-16T04:59:29Z aeth: It looks like you might be reimplementing make-array
2017-04-16T04:59:42Z aeth: If you want to do so to learn, do so, though.
2017-04-16T04:59:48Z beach: borei: Also, it is usually a bad idea to have the same name of a slot and of its accessor, because you would need to export that symbol, and then client code might think it is a good idea to use SLOT-VALUE.
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2017-04-16T05:00:27Z beach: borei: From the lack of reaction on your part, I take it that my recommendation was not good enough that it could be understood.
2017-04-16T05:00:42Z borei: beach: that is good point in regards to "security"
2017-04-16T05:01:18Z borei: honestly im trying to digest "Alternative" option, but ... don't understand it
2017-04-16T05:01:41Z beach: (defclass vector-base () ()) in both cases.
2017-04-16T05:01:57Z beach: (defclass vector-r (vector-base) ((dim ....)))
2017-04-16T05:02:27Z beach: (defclass vector-3d (vector-base) ((dim :initform 3 :allocation :class :reader dim)))
2017-04-16T05:02:43Z beach: Or, as an alternative to the last definition...
2017-04-16T05:02:52Z borei: yes - that is the first one - that one i got
2017-04-16T05:03:04Z beach: (defclass vector-3d (vector-base) ()) and (defmethod dim ((object vector-3d)) 3)
2017-04-16T05:04:38Z borei: hmm, that sounds ... spooky for me  - the value is retrned by method, but what is in slot ??
2017-04-16T05:05:07Z beach: There is no slot in that case.
2017-04-16T05:05:24Z beach: Why would there be?  You always want the dimension to be 3 in that case.
2017-04-16T05:06:04Z borei: true
2017-04-16T05:06:39Z borei: but it looks like not reflecting actual dimension
2017-04-16T05:07:56Z borei: first approach is more logical (id say), but idea to create superclass a bit exessive (i think)
2017-04-16T05:08:15Z beach: borei: Object-oriented design is about the (generic) functions that you can use to manipulate the objects.  The representation in terms of classes and slots is an implementation detail and should be of no concern to client code.
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2017-04-16T05:08:40Z beach: borei: There is nothing expensive about a superclass.
2017-04-16T05:09:36Z beach: borei: If you are worried about cost (space, execution time) you need to make sure you know the details of how CLOS is implemented.  Otherwise, you will make the wrong decisions.  So it is best not to worry about such things initially.
2017-04-16T05:10:24Z borei: that is true
2017-04-16T05:10:48Z beach: borei: History is full of programmers with insufficient (and often incorrect) knowledge, making design decisions based on this "knowledge", thereby increasing the cost of producing the software, and often making it worse than if they had left it alone.
2017-04-16T05:11:23Z borei: im far from that ... yet :-)
2017-04-16T05:12:31Z beach: Er, I think you were just about to reject two solutions to your problem, based on your intuition.
2017-04-16T05:13:18Z borei: im not sure yet
2017-04-16T05:15:25Z borei: both of them will do job, im trying to find more alternatives
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2017-04-16T05:16:06Z borei: it's not simple for me at this moment, because of lack of knowledge in CL.
2017-04-16T05:17:11Z beach: You can look at it this way: If you have the DIM slot in the base class, then this slot will be present in every instance of vector-3d, even though the value in every such instance is 3.  Therefore, you are wasting space.  Just saying, since you are worried about cost.
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2017-04-16T05:19:47Z borei: that is good point
2017-04-16T05:20:39Z borei: oh, one question - is it possible to provide same slot in both parent and child classes ?
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2017-04-16T05:21:41Z borei: in my case vector-r and vector-3d will have dim
2017-04-16T05:22:02Z borei: but allocation will be different
2017-04-16T05:22:22Z borei: for vector-r - instance, vector-3d class
2017-04-16T05:23:06Z borei: actually, i'll try it
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2017-04-16T14:32:03Z rumbler31: is there a way in standard cl or in a library somewhere to create a bidirectional stream object...
2017-04-16T14:32:35Z phoe: rumbler31:
2017-04-16T14:32:37Z phoe: clhs make-two-way-stream
2017-04-16T14:32:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_two.htm
2017-04-16T14:32:40Z phoe: did you want this?
2017-04-16T14:33:25Z rumbler31: Well, maybe, what I want is one stream object that is reading and writing to the same backend.  I don't need to glue two streams together
2017-04-16T14:33:40Z rumbler31: maybe I don't understand that this can be used for that purpose
2017-04-16T14:35:04Z rumbler31: for example, I need to use a function that takes an output stream to store its output, after which I want to read from this stream to get what the output was, instead of needing to go through the get-output-stream-string with-input-from-string handoffs
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2017-04-16T14:42:51Z phoe: clhs echo-stream
2017-04-16T14:42:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_echo_s.htm
2017-04-16T14:43:06Z phoe: something like this perhaps
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2017-04-16T14:47:00Z rumbler31: I don't think that will work either.  I end up with an output stream with data in it.  I don't know what to pass as an input stream... I ostensibly want to read from the ouptut stream, instead of echo into the output stream whatever new input stream I pass to the echo stream instance
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2017-04-16T14:54:05Z phoe: Hmmm
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2017-04-16T14:54:11Z phoe: so you basically want a buffer, correct?
2017-04-16T14:54:44Z phoe: you write "abcdefgh" to the object, then you want to be able to read "abcdefgh" from the object, right?
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2017-04-16T15:04:33Z rumbler31: yes
2017-04-16T15:04:43Z rumbler31: but the library i'm using expects a stream object
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2017-04-16T15:16:36Z phoe: rumbler31: I think you need a Gray stream for that
2017-04-16T15:16:58Z phoe: so you can customize what read/write functionalities do
2017-04-16T15:17:12Z phoe: but no, uh, I really don't know of any such library
2017-04-16T15:17:22Z phoe: maybe the rest of #lisp will know better
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2017-04-16T15:21:45Z shrdlu68: know what?
2017-04-16T15:22:01Z phoe: shrdlu68: rumbler31 needs an object that is a stream that acts as a buffer
2017-04-16T15:22:30Z phoe: so standard Lisp I/O functions for reading/writing streams work on it
2017-04-16T15:23:13Z shrdlu68: What kind? fast-io offers that for vectors.
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2017-04-16T15:32:51Z pjb: rumbler31: have a look at com.informatimago.clext.pipe
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2017-04-16T15:44:50Z rumbler31: well at the moment I just need character streams.  but its essentially like a file stream, except not file backed.  Thanks I'll look at these
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2017-04-16T15:58:52Z shrdlu68: What networking library does quicklisp ship with?
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2017-04-16T16:04:31Z phoe: shrdlu68: none
2017-04-16T16:05:32Z adlai: shrdlu68: see quicklisp/network.lisp, it has its own minimal backends for each implementation
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2017-04-16T16:07:11Z c0mrade: Can anyone help me troubleshoot a problem in an app, I've got it running but getting an exception, it's a web app. Here's some info about the app and how to set it up. https://github.com/ornicar/lila and https://github.com/ornicar/lila/wiki/Lichess-Development-Onboarding
2017-04-16T16:07:12Z shrdlu68: Ah, ok.
2017-04-16T16:08:02Z adlai: c0mrade: ever heard of ibm? they solved this problem already :P
2017-04-16T16:08:35Z c0mrade: adlai: What does IBM have to do with it? :P
2017-04-16T16:08:56Z adlai: same thing google has to do with weiqi
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2017-04-16T16:09:44Z adlai is kidding, these games only became fun once it was known that the only winning move is not to play against a machine
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2017-04-16T16:15:12Z pjb: rumbler31: Have a look at flexi-stream, since it lets you read and write from sequences, it may match your needs.
2017-04-16T16:19:05Z beach: c0mrade: I think you need to show something more specific.
2017-04-16T16:19:30Z c0mrade: I can give access..
2017-04-16T16:19:34Z c0mrade: beach.
2017-04-16T16:19:42Z beach: Access to what?
2017-04-16T16:19:58Z c0mrade: To my box and to the server.
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2017-04-16T16:20:43Z varjag: c0mrade: does that lichless thing have anything to do with lisp?
2017-04-16T16:20:58Z c0mrade: varjag: Nah.
2017-04-16T16:21:04Z varjag: ..
2017-04-16T16:21:09Z beach: c0mrade: Then you are in the wrong channel.
2017-04-16T16:21:26Z c0mrade: Well yeah I am but if anyone is still interested, let me know.
2017-04-16T16:21:33Z presiden: hello, I wanna run this program against the input.txt (included in the gist) https://gist.github.com/matematikaadit/9f1d885c8ae5fd0056eba717b8e5f1ec
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2017-04-16T16:21:49Z presiden: currently, I'm using sbcl
2017-04-16T16:22:12Z phoe: sbcl --script file.lisp
2017-04-16T16:23:19Z phoe: sbcl --script file.lisp < input.txt
2017-04-16T16:23:32Z presiden: phoe: ah, thanks :)
2017-04-16T16:24:08Z phoe: presiden: but then again, it's a mix of Lisp implementation stuff and shell scripting
2017-04-16T16:24:23Z beach: presiden: It would be more idiomatic to write: (loop for a = (read) until (= a 42) do (print a))
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2017-04-16T16:26:01Z presiden: beach: owh, neat, didn't know about that,
2017-04-16T16:26:58Z phoe: presiden: whenever you post code around here, expect that someone will start refactoring it for you.
2017-04-16T16:27:13Z phoe: which is a good thing - I learned countless things about Lisp this way back when I was young and stupid.
2017-04-16T16:27:14Z presiden: phoe: :)
2017-04-16T16:27:18Z phoe: ;; I ain't young anymore
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2017-04-16T16:32:58Z beach: Age is a relative thing.
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2017-04-16T16:47:31Z phoe: beach: I know how I want to solve the problem with classes participating in multiple protocols.
2017-04-16T16:47:48Z phoe: This documentation problem, I mean.
2017-04-16T16:48:03Z phoe: Or, well, not solve - try to solve it.
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2017-04-16T16:50:58Z phoe: beach: In which document the term "protocol" is defined? I need to read it.
2017-04-16T16:52:01Z Jonsky: I DEFMETHODed some methods with simple method combination PROGN and than removed that to use CALL-NEXT-METHOD. But somehowit seems lisp still remember the method used PROGN. Is it that once I used other method-combination I cannod change back?
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2017-04-16T16:53:42Z Bike: did you reevaluate the defgeneric?
2017-04-16T16:56:01Z Jonsky: yup
2017-04-16T16:56:10Z Jonsky: actually the whole file
2017-04-16T16:56:37Z Jonsky: as it didn't work. I tried to restart slime and load the file again. And it worked
2017-04-16T16:57:04Z Jonsky: But it feels wrong if I have to restart lisp just to change the method combination.
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2017-04-16T16:57:54Z Bike: try fmakunbound on the function first, if you need to do this again.
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2017-04-16T17:00:29Z phoe: Can anyone help me try to debug an issue with CL-TIDY?
2017-04-16T17:00:45Z Jonsky: Bike: Thanks. BTW. Is there any difference between uninterning a symbol and makunbound-ing the symbol?
2017-04-16T17:00:57Z phoe: I have this bit of HTML http://paste.lisp.org/display/344403
2017-04-16T17:01:20Z Bike: uninterning a symbol removes it from its package. calling makunbound on a symbol removes any variable binding associated with it, but doesn't affect the symbol.
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2017-04-16T17:01:23Z phoe: and I run it through CL-TIDY:CLEAN-UP-HTML, and I get something that is very much not valid HTML.
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2017-04-16T17:03:09Z Jonsky: Bike: aha, so if I want to completely "erase" a symbol I have to do both.
2017-04-16T17:03:24Z Bike: no, uninterning will do it.
2017-04-16T17:03:42Z Bike: if you unintern, the binding will remain, but it will be associated with an uninterned symbol. so if you lose the symbol it will be garbage collected.
2017-04-16T17:05:44Z Jonsky: cool, thanks a lot
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2017-04-16T17:24:20Z phoe: Is there any macro that's basically WITH-OUTPUT-TO-FILE?
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2017-04-16T17:26:20Z phoe: oooh, alexandria
2017-04-16T17:26:24Z phoe: you're so sweety
2017-04-16T17:29:02Z Bike: you can have with-open-file bind *standard-output*, anyway
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2017-04-16T17:29:53Z Bike: alexandria's macro is just with-open-file with defaults and without direction... weird
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2017-04-16T17:30:34Z Jonsky: uiop is cool too
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2017-04-16T17:38:46Z pjb: presiden: (loop for a = (read) until (= a 42) do (print a)) will fail if no 42 is present in the file.
2017-04-16T17:39:01Z pjb: presiden: use instead: (loop for a = (read) while a until (= a 42) do (print a))
2017-04-16T17:39:08Z beach: phoe: I don't think I have seen a formal definition (other than my own).  But I learned about protocols from reading the CLIM II specification.
2017-04-16T17:40:04Z phoe: beach: if CLIM II specification has the definition of a protocol, then I'll take a look at it.
2017-04-16T17:40:27Z phoe: Because it's a term important enough to have a formal definition, at least to me.
2017-04-16T17:40:29Z beach: I am not sure it really defines it.
2017-04-16T17:40:38Z beach: Let me check Keene's book...
2017-04-16T17:41:16Z pjb: presiden: use instead: (loop for a = (read *standard-input* nil nil) while a until (= a 42) do (print a)) ; sorry, eof-error-p is t by default.
2017-04-16T17:42:07Z phoe: I need a function that can replace parts of a string.
2017-04-16T17:42:34Z phoe: (replace-in-string "foo" "bazooka" "qwerfooasd") ;=> "qwerbazookaasd"
2017-04-16T17:42:45Z phoe: Non-destructive, naturally.
2017-04-16T17:43:13Z Bike: copy seq, then setf subseq
2017-04-16T17:43:20Z Bike: oh, and find i guess
2017-04-16T17:43:39Z Bike: or... search
2017-04-16T17:43:42Z beach: phoe: Keene's book, page 230: Protocol.  A definition of the behavior of a set of objects.  Some protocols are intended for programmers who are developing client programs, whereas other protocols are intended for programmers who wish to extend a program.
2017-04-16T17:43:50Z beach: phoe: Too general for my taste.
2017-04-16T17:43:59Z phoe: beach: yes, it's too general.
2017-04-16T17:44:14Z phoe: Bike: copy seq might not work here. The substrings are of different length.
2017-04-16T17:44:16Z pjb: phoe: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.sequence:replace-subseq
2017-04-16T17:44:31Z Bike: oh. then it's annoying yeah.
2017-04-16T17:44:34Z pjb: use copy-seq since it's destructive on purpose.
2017-04-16T17:45:20Z pjb: and search to find the position of the substrings you want to replace.
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2017-04-16T17:46:23Z phoe: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html
2017-04-16T17:46:26Z phoe grabs replace-all
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2017-04-16T17:47:48Z pjb: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:string-replace "fooqwerfooasd" "foo" "bazooka") #| --> "bazookaqwerbazookaasd" |#
2017-04-16T17:50:02Z beach: phoe: http://metamodular.com/protocol.pdf
2017-04-16T17:50:15Z beach: From my book ↑
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2017-04-16T17:53:03Z beach: phoe: Slightly more specific. :)
2017-04-16T17:54:43Z phoe: beach: now this is something that I can munch on.
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2017-04-16T17:55:58Z phoe: beach: thanks!
2017-04-16T17:56:55Z beach: Anytime! :)
2017-04-16T17:57:23Z beach: I invented it, so if you have comments, I'll gladly take them into consideration.
2017-04-16T17:58:04Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: it doesn't look like the iolib backend is complete
2017-04-16T18:01:02Z phoe: beach: I am doing elsething right now so I cannot focus on the chapter, but as soon as I am able to, I'll read it and most likely will have questions.
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2017-04-16T18:14:23Z beach: phoe: Sure.  I did not tell you to read it.  You asked for it. :)
2017-04-16T18:17:21Z phoe: beach: :D
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2017-04-16T18:26:41Z add^_: beach: is metamodular.com your site? I'm reading through some essays and stuff on it
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2017-04-16T18:28:56Z add^_: In any case, the "wrong" essay makes good points, and is inspiring. Thanks for writing it. :-)
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2017-04-16T18:32:26Z phoe: add^_: it is his website. Also, which "wrong" essay?
2017-04-16T18:34:27Z phoe: How can I easily print something in :LOWER readtable case?
2017-04-16T18:34:42Z add^_: http://metamodular.com/Essays/wrong.html
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2017-04-16T18:36:37Z phoe: ooh, *PRINT-CASE*
2017-04-16T18:37:46Z phoe: add^_: thanks!
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2017-04-16T19:10:39Z dim: if I try to load an already included file from a binary image prepared with SBCL, I get redefining PGLOADER.TRANSFORMS:INTERN-SYMBOL in DEFUN
2017-04-16T19:11:00Z dim: I expected SBCL to just go and redefine the function, as in the REPL
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2017-04-16T19:12:01Z oleo: isn't that the same ?
2017-04-16T19:12:39Z dim: oh but that's a failure condition here
2017-04-16T19:12:50Z dim: so maybe the condition handler I have is a tad too large?
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2017-04-16T19:14:25Z phoe: a failure condition?
2017-04-16T19:14:56Z dim: I have a handler-care on "condition", that might be catching a warning here
2017-04-16T19:15:17Z dim: #<SB-KERNEL:REDEFINITION-WITH-DEFUN {10075CE6E3}> [condition]
2017-04-16T19:15:26Z dim: that's a condition I think I should accept
2017-04-16T19:15:51Z oleo: right
2017-04-16T19:16:26Z phoe: isn't that just a warning from SBCL?
2017-04-16T19:16:30Z phoe: oh wait
2017-04-16T19:16:43Z phoe: you should accept that, correct
2017-04-16T19:16:50Z dim: yeah I've been handling too much, so I guess the handler should be on error rather than condition
2017-04-16T19:17:00Z Bike: you don't usually want to handle condition, no.
2017-04-16T19:17:31Z Bike: and the sbcl repl will warn on that as well.
2017-04-16T19:17:49Z dim: maybe handling simple-condition and serious-condition is what I should do?
2017-04-16T19:18:11Z Bike: why simple condition?
2017-04-16T19:18:19Z dim: Bike: here I'm accepting user code at runtime, so I don't know what to expect really
2017-04-16T19:18:37Z dim: it's the handler-case for the pgloader option --load-lisp-file
2017-04-16T19:18:44Z dim: use defined transformation functions
2017-04-16T19:19:40Z shka: hmmm
2017-04-16T19:19:58Z shka: how can i use scribble syntax on my web page as a markup that user types in?
2017-04-16T19:20:35Z shka: can i somehow isolate reader so it will be impossible to compromise security?
2017-04-16T19:25:55Z dim: thanks for comments guys, https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/526 should be fixed now ;-)
2017-04-16T19:26:15Z phoe: Ha! I can now process protocols into HTML.
2017-04-16T19:26:29Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344414 => https://jsfiddle.net/mocc4s71/
2017-04-16T19:27:19Z Bike: alternate fist
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2017-04-16T19:28:03Z phoe: yes, look at the Lisp code
2017-04-16T19:28:23Z phoe: line 25 of the lisp paste.
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2017-04-16T19:29:22Z Bike: tht is actually where i saw it
2017-04-16T19:30:36Z phoe: oh
2017-04-16T19:30:56Z phoe: yes - the first string is a file name, the second is an optional description.
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2017-04-16T19:48:14Z beach: add^_: Yes, it's mine.  Thanks!
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2017-04-16T22:38:08Z presiden: pjb: ah, thanks, haven't think about the possibilities of no 42 present, :)
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2017-04-17T00:22:01Z presiden: is there a function to query what this macro/function/special do? i.e. something like (help function-name)
2017-04-17T00:22:16Z Bike: (documentation name 'function)
2017-04-17T00:22:28Z Bike: though it's not always great.
2017-04-17T00:24:42Z presiden: clhs documentation
2017-04-17T00:24:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2017-04-17T00:25:53Z presiden: for example, I wanna knows what the #'first function do? so the syntax (documentation #'first 'function) ?
2017-04-17T00:26:12Z Bike: (documentation 'first 'function)
2017-04-17T00:26:27Z Bike: or #'first 'function, or #'first t. should all give you the samet hing.
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2017-04-17T00:28:55Z presiden: Bike: ah, I see, thanks :)
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2017-04-17T03:31:47Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-17T03:32:06Z presiden: morning \[T]/
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2017-04-17T11:49:40Z muyinliu: Hi, could you tell me how to use trivial-bit-streams?
2017-04-17T11:50:19Z phoe: muyinliu: it looks like the interface is documented and available on http://quickdocs.org/trivial-bit-streams/api
2017-04-17T11:50:36Z phoe: ...or at least somewhat documented.
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2017-04-17T11:51:00Z muyinliu: Is there some sort of example?
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2017-04-17T11:51:38Z muyinliu: I read the source code of trivial-bit-streams but still not a clues.
2017-04-17T11:53:10Z phoe: I don't know. All I have is google.
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2017-04-17T12:15:02Z Harag: Quick question, package x has a class called "request" and in package y you are "using" x but y has its own class called "request", how do you stop request in y from butchering request in x, do you have to rename request in y to something else?
2017-04-17T12:15:38Z Harag: or is there some "shadow" mechanism?
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2017-04-17T12:17:30Z Xach: Harag: there is exactly shadowing
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2017-04-17T12:17:48Z Xach: (defpackage y (:use x) (:shadow request))
2017-04-17T12:18:08Z Harag: :Xach thanx
2017-04-17T12:18:15Z Xach: That clause means "When *package* is Y, a bare token REQUEST is interpreted as X::REQUEST"
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2017-04-17T12:20:06Z beach: Harag: Nowadays, I avoid :USE-ing packages other than COMMON-LISP.  I prefer using explicit package prefixes.  The reason is that when you :USE a different package, you are making a huge commitment.  If the author of the :USEd package adds new functionality in the future, it may break your code.
2017-04-17T12:21:27Z Harag: :beach yeah, I think I agree, its so seldom that you use more than a handful of things from another package
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2017-04-17T12:38:10Z jdz: SBCL's package-local nicknames are good for this, too.
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2017-04-17T13:01:53Z beach: jdz: Yes.  We need to have that extension widely accepted.
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2017-04-17T13:36:13Z jdz: In the meantime I'm adding package nicknames globally on other implementations.
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2017-04-17T13:54:35Z phoe: jdz: how?
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2017-04-17T14:13:19Z lpaste: jdz pasted “Package nicknames” at http://lpaste.net/354677
2017-04-17T14:14:10Z jdz: phoe: ^
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2017-04-17T14:19:22Z phoe: jdz: that pushnew
2017-04-17T14:19:33Z phoe: it pushes into the local variable
2017-04-17T14:19:34Z phoe: correct?
2017-04-17T14:19:56Z phoe: yes, I see
2017-04-17T14:19:58Z loke___: phoe: It affects a PLACE yes.
2017-04-17T14:20:03Z jdz: Yes, but the result is passed to RENAME-PACKAGE;
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2017-04-17T14:21:14Z phoe: yes, got it.
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2017-04-17T14:36:29Z benny_: jdz: I was looking for this forever
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2017-04-17T14:47:12Z phoe: uh
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2017-04-17T14:48:04Z phoe: jdz: this is somewhat ingenious, or at least I find it as such
2017-04-17T14:48:40Z phoe: I remember portable package nicknames being a problem for much much longer
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2017-04-17T14:48:56Z phoe: and I really wonder why a solution like that wasn't created X years before
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2017-04-17T14:49:47Z beach: It just adds global nicknames.
2017-04-17T14:50:07Z beach: So there might be conflicts with existing package names or existing package nicknames.
2017-04-17T14:50:19Z phoe: oh right - package-local nicknames
2017-04-17T14:50:22Z phoe: that was the issue.
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2017-04-17T14:52:09Z beach: What is needed is for one package P to define a local prefix for some other package Q, so that when *package* is P, then symbol names such as PRE:X are looked up in package Q when PRE is the local prefix that P has registered for Q.
2017-04-17T14:54:03Z phoe: beach: in other words, we need to define a reader that does this.
2017-04-17T14:54:32Z beach: It might be enough to alter the implementation of packages together with FIND-PACKAGE.
2017-04-17T14:54:50Z phoe nods.
2017-04-17T14:54:54Z phoe: Back soon - real life.
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2017-04-17T15:04:21Z mood: SPM Reader provides it (well, something similar) through reader macros. You don't want to actually use it though
2017-04-17T15:04:23Z mood: https://github.com/jasom/spm-reader
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2017-04-17T15:46:11Z pjb: There are actually multiple features that are wanted with respect to package names, and no implementation so far combine them all.
2017-04-17T15:46:44Z beach: Name two.
2017-04-17T15:47:24Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/relative-package.lisp
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2017-04-17T15:47:47Z pjb: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/relative-package.lisp#L106 exactly.
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2017-04-17T15:52:41Z beach: It seems to refer to hierarchical packages, which have not been discussed.
2017-04-17T15:55:26Z beach: Are you saying that, in addition to package-local nicknames, hierarchical packages are also needed?
2017-04-17T15:55:33Z beach: That's a pretty big step.
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2017-04-17T16:03:23Z pjb: Well, it's implemented in the same place.
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2017-04-17T17:26:23Z jasom: pjb: hierarchical packages are realizable if you reserve a single character for the hierarchy separator
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2017-04-17T17:47:28Z pjb: jasom: yes; we can use the dot in package names.  Or we could also use the semicolon (but it's reserved for implementation specific meaning, we'd have to check whether it's used in any implementation (but our reader macro would override it anyways)).
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2017-04-17T17:55:01Z shrdlu68: Did the Lisp OSes of yore come ship with their source?
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2017-04-17T18:05:56Z nyef: shrdlu68: AFAICT, most of it.
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2017-04-17T18:06:47Z nyef: Doesn't seem to include the build tools for the lisp world, the sources for various ROMs or programmable logic, or the CPU microcode or the build tools for the CPU microcode.
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2017-04-17T18:07:01Z nyef: But pretty much everything else seems to be there.
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2017-04-17T18:19:24Z jasom: pjb: my point is that you don't need to rewrite the package implementation for heirarchal packages in that case; for true heirarchal packages you need to do so because
2017-04-17T18:19:39Z jasom: the current package system requires all packages to have a global name (i.e. there are no anonymous packages)
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2017-04-17T18:20:37Z jasom: so a simple reader hack like spm ann't provide true heirarchal packages without also rewriting the package system
2017-04-17T18:20:51Z jasom: s/ann't/can't/
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2017-04-17T18:41:28Z jasom: quick survey for a good name to use for an operator in parenscript that creates an anonymous function that also binds the value of "this" (lambda is already taken by the old non-this-binding version)
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2017-04-17T18:47:39Z Jonsky: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html
2017-04-17T18:48:26Z Jonsky: I am reading this and I don't understand why the author can wrap (SIGNAL ...) inside (RESTART-CASE...) without handler.
2017-04-17T18:49:15Z Jonsky: It seems that he believes the code will land in a debugger to ask the user to choose a restart but I tried the code and it didn't work like that.
2017-04-17T18:50:28Z Jonsky: I mean the code starts with the line  (defun show-lines (lines) ...). It looks weird.
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2017-04-17T18:52:43Z Xof: Jonsky: no, I don't think he believes that there will be a debugger
2017-04-17T18:52:51Z Bike: signal doesn't enter the debugger
2017-04-17T18:52:51Z Xof: this is explicitly about non-serious conditions
2017-04-17T18:52:59Z Bike: if there's no handler it will just return nil
2017-04-17T18:53:21Z Xof: you can have handlers without the debugger, for example in the code that is calling SHOW-LINES
2017-04-17T18:53:45Z jasom: "...but if the handler declines and the condition goes unhandled, the same result will be achieved. " clearly they know that if there is no handler, it will work as if you didn't define any paging at all
2017-04-17T18:54:54Z Jonsky: ah ha, so he meant the function to be called inside a handler-bind
2017-04-17T18:54:59Z jasom: okay, maybe not *clearly* but if you read it closely that's what they are saying.
2017-04-17T18:55:02Z Jonsky: Thanks!
2017-04-17T18:55:31Z Jonsky: Sorry for my bad reading technique.
2017-04-17T18:55:57Z jasom: no problem; it isn't immediately obvious what they meant
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2017-04-17T18:57:50Z Jonsky: Thank you guys so much. #lisp is always so helpful and friendly.
2017-04-17T18:58:05Z Jonsky: (By guys I meant people.)
2017-04-17T19:01:26Z flip214: For lparallel:premove-if-not et.al., how would I provide some special variable binding in the threads?
2017-04-17T19:01:41Z flip214: doing the binding within the supplied lambda sounds awful, performance-wise.
2017-04-17T19:03:02Z flip214: but doing my own rpc isn't nice, either. (splitting data, pushing bindings, lambda, and data to some threads that wait for things to do)
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2017-04-17T19:05:18Z Chris___: yo
2017-04-17T19:05:18Z flip214: when debugging within an lparallel thread, can I find out which thread is waiting for the result?
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2017-04-17T20:10:17Z phoe: aah
2017-04-17T20:10:37Z phoe: I am trying to refactor the code that I quickly hacked up a few months ago
2017-04-17T20:11:10Z phoe: a mix of passing arguments around functional style and setfing special variables all around in weird places
2017-04-17T20:11:20Z phoe: and control flow that actually depends on the values of these special variables
2017-04-17T20:11:42Z phoe: just understanding what's going on took me a long while
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2017-04-17T20:16:45Z phoe: okay - now I have a single path of code working. time to turn it into a full application.
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2017-04-17T20:49:36Z gigamonkey: Oh lord. I had forgotten about streams in CL. What's the state of the art these days for things like, I want to make a stream that I can READ-CHAR and READ-SEQUENCE from but I want to translate #\Tab characters in an underlying stream into eight #\Space chars.
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2017-04-17T20:51:13Z phoe: gigamonkey: Gray streams
2017-04-17T20:51:36Z phoe: trivial-gray-streams allows you to do that independently of implementation.
2017-04-17T20:52:15Z gigamonkey: Franz's simple-streams never really caught on?
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2017-04-17T20:54:40Z gigamonkey: And computers are fast so we don't care about the alleged inefficiencies of all that generic function dispatching in Gray streams?
2017-04-17T20:56:31Z aeth: Does anyone want to see a magic trick? It requires SBCL. If you're already in slime restart it with M-x sl-r-i-l and if you're not, start it up. Now type (random 10)
2017-04-17T20:56:34Z aeth: The answer is 6
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2017-04-17T20:57:32Z pillton: gigamonkey: Invoking a non generic function per character doesn't sound fast either.
2017-04-17T20:57:41Z Bike: wouldn't want to be inconsistent.
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2017-04-17T20:59:13Z White_Flame: aeth: that's not too uncommon of a decision to make wrt random states
2017-04-17T20:59:27Z phoe: aeth: https://i.imgtc.com/Vs0lpyP.png
2017-04-17T20:59:37Z gigamonkey: pillton: well, simple streams had buffering and what not. I mean, ultimately if you're going to read a stream character by character there's no getting around a function call per character.
2017-04-17T20:59:42Z phoe: I know, I haven't made a fresh random state
2017-04-17T20:59:59Z phoe: so my SBCL is started with the same random state as everyone else's
2017-04-17T21:00:05Z aeth: phoe: yes, it won't work on people who make a fresh random state in their startup file, but it should work on the rest
2017-04-17T21:00:15Z aeth: well, actually, it will still work on the former 10% of the time
2017-04-17T21:00:24Z White_Flame: obligatory https://www.xkcd.com/221/
2017-04-17T21:00:38Z pillton: gigamonkey: You could initialise a stream with a lambda form.
2017-04-17T21:00:44Z phoe: aeth: well, fine, 3/10 because the uninitiated will fall for it
2017-04-17T21:00:55Z phoe: but we're not uninitiated, aren't we, Bruce
2017-04-17T21:00:58Z aeth: White_Flame: The (random 6) we all get is 4, so maybe SBCL authors read that XKCD
2017-04-17T21:01:01Z phoe: members of the League of Shadows!
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2017-04-17T21:15:22Z pjb: White_Flame: and the worst, is that we don't even need to look at 221 to know what it is…
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2017-04-17T21:34:00Z pillton: gigamonkey: You could generate something like this. http://paste.lisp.org/display/344494
2017-04-17T21:35:49Z pillton: I'm not sure why I had to use flet to get SBCL to inline it.
2017-04-17T21:36:25Z pillton: It is trivial to rewrite a lambda form as an flet so it doesn't matter.
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2017-04-17T21:43:46Z ersatz_haderach: does anyone know of any libraries (probably using CFFI) for wiring up to COM automation on windows?
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2017-04-17T21:49:14Z pillton: I think LispWorks provides COM support.
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2017-04-17T22:02:49Z ersatz_haderach: ah so it does... thanks.
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2017-04-17T23:48:06Z Reinisch: is there a best practice when trying to interact with a user in CL? is there a "prompt" system I should take a look at? or should I be doing things like printing to and read-lining from the *query-io* stream?
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2017-04-17T23:50:31Z Xach: Reinisch: there isn't any particular library people use
2017-04-17T23:50:37Z Xach: Reinisch: *query-io* is a good thing to work with
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2017-04-17T23:52:41Z Reinisch: ok, thanks Xach!
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2017-04-18T02:23:51Z shaftoe: what's a good way to keep a lisp program from exiting, other than (loop) ?
2017-04-18T02:24:03Z phoe: shaftoe: wait, what do you mean, keep it from exiting?
2017-04-18T02:24:11Z phoe: (read-line) might work
2017-04-18T02:24:15Z shaftoe: as in a long-running process
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2017-04-18T02:24:26Z phoe: it will wait until you press enter
2017-04-18T02:24:32Z phoe: shaftoe: I don't get your problem
2017-04-18T02:24:45Z phoe: why do you want it not to exit?
2017-04-18T02:24:59Z shaftoe: because it's a server process
2017-04-18T02:25:17Z shaftoe: (loop) causes the program to run at 100%
2017-04-18T02:25:28Z phoe: and you're running it multithreaded, correct?
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2017-04-18T02:25:34Z shaftoe: yes
2017-04-18T02:25:37Z phoe: (loop (sleep 1000)) will not be a busy loop
2017-04-18T02:25:53Z shaftoe: ahh
2017-04-18T02:25:57Z shaftoe: of course
2017-04-18T02:26:36Z White_Flame: it really should block on some signal that can be triggered to exit cleanly
2017-04-18T02:26:39Z phoe: ^
2017-04-18T02:27:02Z shaftoe: any example?
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2017-04-18T02:27:17Z phoe: either that or expose a swank server that you can connect to in order to maintain/quit it
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2017-04-18T02:28:25Z White_Flame: shaftoe: bordeaux-threads:condition-wait?
2017-04-18T02:28:43Z shaftoe: i'll check it out
2017-04-18T02:28:45Z shaftoe: thanks
2017-04-18T02:28:59Z White_Flame: it's generic threading utils
2017-04-18T02:29:09Z shaftoe: i havent dug into bt that much
2017-04-18T02:29:49Z White_Flame: so you'll need to have both a lock and a condition variable for that particular usage
2017-04-18T02:30:13Z phoe: or swank:install-sigint-handler
2017-04-18T02:30:16Z White_Flame: at least, if you go it raw as we did
2017-04-18T02:30:32Z White_Flame: well, I don't mean an OS signal, I mean some internal trigger.  But catching sigint might be reasonable, too
2017-04-18T02:30:34Z phoe: this way you can send a unix SIGINT to the process and it will do something funny, depending on the lambda
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2017-04-18T02:30:57Z phoe: also, depending on your implementation, you might be able to trap SIGTERM
2017-04-18T02:30:58Z phoe: https://github.com/mishoo/cl-daemonize
2017-04-18T02:31:24Z phoe: or even https://github.com/guicho271828/trivial-signal
2017-04-18T02:31:26Z phoe: which seems more general
2017-04-18T02:32:19Z White_Flame: but even so, the OS signal handler should call your internal cleanup, and there should also be internal paths to call that as well, which should be used.  OS signals should be a last resort, IMO
2017-04-18T02:33:08Z phoe: I still say you should expose a swank server to localhost if it's meant to be a server daemon.
2017-04-18T02:33:23Z White_Flame: or some other form of admin interface
2017-04-18T02:33:32Z phoe: ^
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2017-04-18T02:33:44Z phoe: with swank being the most natural and simplest Lisp interface.
2017-04-18T02:33:52Z White_Flame: even touching magic-named files, or a telnet server, or webserver, or something
2017-04-18T02:34:00Z White_Flame: yep
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2017-04-18T02:38:17Z emaczen: mapcan uses nconc, is there a non-destructive version? What about loop with append?
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2017-04-18T02:41:27Z Bike: there's not one built in, but that's about what it would be yeah.
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2017-04-18T02:42:35Z phoe: emaczen: basically insert copy-list into the mapcan
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2017-04-18T02:43:23Z phoe: (mapcan #'foo list1 list2 list3) ;; (mapcan (compose #'copy-list #'foo) list1 list2 list3)
2017-04-18T02:43:27Z phoe: using alexandria:compose
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2017-04-18T02:45:31Z phoe: the downside to this method is, the last result will also be copied, but this might be an upside depending on what you later want to do with the result
2017-04-18T02:47:59Z emaczen: phoe: which function is called first #'foo #'copy-list?
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2017-04-18T02:51:16Z phoe: emaczen: the rightmost one
2017-04-18T02:51:32Z phoe: at least that's what the alexandria manual tells me.
2017-04-18T02:51:51Z phoe: so I think that you will want to put copy-list leftmost to get the behaviour you want
2017-04-18T02:52:11Z phoe: you get some results that are immutable, then you copy-list them, and then you nconc the copied lists
2017-04-18T02:52:20Z phoe: the original stays safe
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2017-04-18T02:53:59Z pillton: emaczen: alexandria:mappend
2017-04-18T02:54:17Z emaczen: phoe: Thanks, I finally found my bug... I didn't know realize that mapcan used nconc... lol
2017-04-18T02:54:21Z emaczen: fixed*
2017-04-18T02:54:55Z phoe: emaczen: or what pillton said
2017-04-18T02:55:03Z phoe: emaczen: no problem
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2017-04-18T04:06:34Z emaczen: where can I get the SBCL texinfo? I just want to read this in emacs -- I've looked briefly several times, but I've never had any success...
2017-04-18T04:08:26Z pillton: Is it not under doc/manual?
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2017-04-18T04:10:37Z emaczen: pillton: I installed it via homebrwe
2017-04-18T04:11:06Z nyef: emaczen: IIRC, it's a mix of bits, some under doc/manual, some auto-generated. And there's also doc/internals, which is another texinfo document.
2017-04-18T04:14:58Z emaczen: nyef: I have not found a doc/manual or doc/internals -- I'll try downloading it via git
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2017-04-18T04:22:25Z luser1: emaczen: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/doc/manual
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2017-04-18T04:23:46Z emaczen: luser1: I see it after I downloaded the source files from git, but homebrew installs it for you.
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2017-04-18T04:24:05Z emaczen: I've installed it manually before, and many of the slime commands didn't work
2017-04-18T04:24:59Z emaczen: I really can't just download the .textinfo file, I have to build it first right?
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2017-04-18T04:30:22Z nyef: I have no idea, really.
2017-04-18T04:30:42Z nyef: It's been a long time since I've messed with the documentation, and ISTR that I basically only worked on the internals side.
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2017-04-18T05:11:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-18T05:36:58Z dim: hi!
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2017-04-18T05:43:19Z John[Lisbeth]: I can not understand the difference between compile time and runtime behaviors
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2017-04-18T05:44:04Z John[Lisbeth]: I understand that when things do not operate with parentheses it is often because the compile time behavior is different from the runtime behavior this causing a macro.
2017-04-18T05:44:16Z John[Lisbeth]: Yet I can not weild it
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2017-04-18T05:44:43Z pillton: Pardon?
2017-04-18T05:44:56Z pillton: Can you show an example?
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2017-04-18T05:45:07Z John[Lisbeth]: '(1 2 3)
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2017-04-18T05:45:30Z John[Lisbeth]: (quote 1 2 3) I beleive it is
2017-04-18T05:45:34Z pillton: It is the same as (quote (1 2 3)).
2017-04-18T05:45:38Z John[Lisbeth]: ' is syntactic sugar. a macro
2017-04-18T05:45:51Z John[Lisbeth]: yes (quote (1 2 3)) indeed
2017-04-18T05:46:09Z John[Lisbeth]: ' is a macro for (quote x)
2017-04-18T05:46:14Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: It is not a macro.  It is a reader macro.
2017-04-18T05:46:18Z beach: They are very different.
2017-04-18T05:47:58Z John[Lisbeth]: I have to learn to write macros and there are very few languages I have to choose from to learn macros in
2017-04-18T05:48:06Z John[Lisbeth]: and I suspect lisp will be the easier one to do it in
2017-04-18T05:48:30Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: ' is a reader macro, not a macro.  So if you want to learn about writing macros, don't follow the example of '.
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2017-04-18T05:50:51Z pillton: It is also better to use macro function instead of macro in the beginning. The addition helps emphasise the kind of operation that is being performed and when (in my opinion).
2017-04-18T05:51:13Z beach: pillton: ?
2017-04-18T05:51:22Z beach: A macro function instead of a macro?
2017-04-18T05:51:28Z pillton: The term.
2017-04-18T05:51:36Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-04-18T05:51:38Z pillton: I know they are equivalent, but the term macro exists in other languages.
2017-04-18T05:51:50Z beach: I see what you mean.
2017-04-18T05:52:40Z pillton: It also naturally leads to questions like "what is the difference between a 'standard' function and a 'macro' function?"
2017-04-18T05:54:43Z pillton: The other problem term is "syntax".
2017-04-18T05:55:20Z beach: In Common Lisp, definitely.
2017-04-18T05:55:58Z pillton: Unfortunately there is syntax and character syntax. I wish the former had an adjective.
2017-04-18T05:56:18Z pillton: Perhaps it does.
2017-04-18T05:56:41Z beach: Paul Wilson (whom I visited for a year in Austin) put it very nicely.  He said Lisp has a two-level syntax.  The lower level is about turning sequences of characters into expressions.  The other one has to do with what expressions are valid.
2017-04-18T05:57:01Z pillton: There we go. Expression syntax.
2017-04-18T05:57:15Z pillton: Lets change the hyperspec and rename chapter 2.
2017-04-18T05:57:29Z beach: Heh.  Good luck!
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2017-04-18T05:59:55Z dim: or just say "not all forms are valid CL code"?
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2017-04-18T06:05:39Z pillton: Qualifying the difference between (expression) syntax and character syntax helps highlight the fact that text and code are not the same thing.
2017-04-18T06:06:12Z beach: Yes, I like it.
2017-04-18T06:06:22Z pillton: My favourite example being (let (#'1) function).
2017-04-18T06:06:37Z beach: Nice one.
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2017-04-18T06:20:47Z flip214: ouch, that hurts a bit ;)
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2017-04-18T06:29:39Z pillton loves the smell of burnt premises in the morning.
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2017-04-18T06:32:07Z flip214: Like "I repeat, it's burn the *houses* and rape the *women*."
2017-04-18T06:33:53Z pillton: Hmm.. is there no plural of the term premise used in logic?
2017-04-18T06:33:59Z pillton: That is what I meant.
2017-04-18T06:34:12Z pillton: Not the house thing.
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2017-04-18T06:43:04Z flip214: pillton: no worries, mate. Just citing from 'the book   ;)
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2017-04-18T06:52:19Z flip214: hmmm... when doing swank's FIND-DEFINITION-FOR-EMACS on PRINT-OBJECT, I get (:errors) interspersed: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344520
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2017-04-18T06:56:09Z phoe: Once again - how can I install the newest ASDF?
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2017-04-18T07:11:48Z phoe: There was a folder where I was supposed to put it...
2017-04-18T07:11:57Z phoe: ... ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source/asdf/ - found it.
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2017-04-18T08:21:04Z loke`: Does anyone know who is the maintainer of CLOSURE-HTML?
2017-04-18T08:23:17Z phoe: loke`: a part of the old Closure web browser?
2017-04-18T08:23:41Z phoe: I really think it is unmaintained.
2017-04-18T08:24:07Z loke`: phoe: If so, would anyone mind if I took over maintainership?
2017-04-18T08:24:21Z loke`: I have several pathches I'd like to push upstream, and I've tried for years to get someone to look at it.
2017-04-18T08:26:12Z phoe: loke`: (proclaim '(maintainer (loke :closure-html)))
2017-04-18T08:26:16Z phoe: there, it's official now
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2017-04-18T08:29:39Z loke`: phoe: So will Xach be willing to move the QL source to my fork?
2017-04-18T08:30:08Z easye: loke: I can give you access to the resources under <https://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/>.  It would probably be polite to email David Lichteblau regarding your intentions.
2017-04-18T08:30:14Z loke`: I'm using it in two projects right now, and it's my go-to HTML parser.
2017-04-18T08:30:26Z loke`: easye: OK, no problems.
2017-04-18T08:30:32Z loke`: Do you have his email address?
2017-04-18T08:30:49Z easye: loke`: no, I don't.
2017-04-18T08:31:22Z phoe: easye: have you seen my message about paste.lisp.org?
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2017-04-18T08:31:55Z easye: but <dlichteblau@common-lisp.net> is currently an alias to a gmail account, so I would try that.
2017-04-18T08:32:06Z easye: phoe: No, was that in #lisp?
2017-04-18T08:32:31Z phoe: easye: basically, we need a better captcha, because http://paste.lisp.org/display/344210
2017-04-18T08:32:53Z phoe: Messages like these are plentiful.
2017-04-18T08:33:12Z easye: phoe: I see.  Are there any canidates?
2017-04-18T08:33:27Z easye: Unfortunatelhy, I have to check out of my hotel right now to catch a train.
2017-04-18T08:33:46Z phoe: easye: I don't know. I think even Google's basic recaptcha could work.
2017-04-18T08:33:49Z easye: phoe and loke:  let's follow up.
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2017-04-18T08:33:55Z easye: Cya in a bit.
2017-04-18T08:33:58Z phoe: But then, do we want to depend on google?
2017-04-18T08:33:59Z phoe: easye: cya.
2017-04-18T08:34:13Z Zhivago: Well, everyone else does. :)
2017-04-18T08:34:24Z phoe: Hah, that's a point.
2017-04-18T08:34:24Z easye: phoe: Non GOOG dependency would be good, but maybe not practical.
2017-04-18T08:34:32Z easye: We can at least make the choice switchable.
2017-04-18T08:34:37Z easye really leaves now.
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2017-04-18T08:34:58Z loke`: easye: OK, I emailed.
2017-04-18T08:34:58Z phoe: easye: evaluate this Lisp expression to switch to non-Google captcha...
2017-04-18T08:36:21Z loke`: easye: which is the current official repository for closure-html? Is it the repo.or.cz one?
2017-04-18T08:36:23Z jackdaniel: it's not valid argument that 'everyone does' (not saying, that it's a bad idea to depend on some 3rd party entity)
2017-04-18T08:37:36Z phoe: jackdaniel: but everyone uses nodejs!
2017-04-18T08:37:41Z phoe ducks
2017-04-18T08:37:58Z shka: and mongodb
2017-04-18T08:38:05Z shka: on default security settings
2017-04-18T08:38:09Z shka: ;]
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2017-04-18T08:51:27Z phoe: I have N tasks to do. What is the simplest way to spawn N threads that compute the tasks and, when they all return, get a list containing all the resulting return values?
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2017-04-18T08:54:14Z Zhivago: Using what threading system?
2017-04-18T08:54:26Z shka: phoe: use lparallel
2017-04-18T08:54:32Z shka: pmapcar
2017-04-18T08:54:48Z shka: does more or less what you want i think
2017-04-18T08:55:18Z phoe: These are HTTP request threads that poke a particularly slow server, so I do not worry about spawning 20+ threads at once on my quad-core CPU.
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2017-04-18T08:55:43Z shka: ah, HTTP request
2017-04-18T08:56:02Z flip214: phoe: lparallel is a good choice.
2017-04-18T08:56:04Z Zhivago: phoe: The other question is -- are you sure you want threads -- would a future or promise do?
2017-04-18T08:56:14Z shka: well, truth be told spawning threads on linux is rather cheap
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2017-04-18T08:56:24Z phoe: Zhivago: I don't care how it works, I want a list of 20 values.
2017-04-18T08:56:30Z phoe: And I want these 20 values to be fetched in parallel.
2017-04-18T08:56:31Z shka: but it does not change the fact that i don't like to do that
2017-04-18T08:56:47Z shka: because rule 0,1,n is very very true
2017-04-18T08:57:33Z shka: phoe: anyway, lparalllel will be easiest way to do that
2017-04-18T08:57:43Z phoe: Zhivago: give me anything that will concurrently fetch me these 20 values and, once everything is done, return me a nice list of these 20 values.
2017-04-18T08:57:49Z shka: it MAY also be the best, but that depends on your use case
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2017-04-18T08:58:31Z Zhivago: phoe: Sounds like futures would be the closest to your description.
2017-04-18T08:58:43Z phoe: Zhivago: how do I use these?
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2017-04-18T08:59:37Z Zhivago: I'd take five minutes to read up on futures.
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2017-04-18T08:59:51Z mazoe: morning all
2017-04-18T08:59:52Z phoe: http://orthecreedence.github.io/blackbird/
2017-04-18T08:59:55Z phoe: hey mazoe
2017-04-18T09:00:00Z phoe: Zhivago: is this the package I should be using?
2017-04-18T09:00:33Z Zhivago: Does it do what you want to do?
2017-04-18T09:01:20Z phoe: I don't know yet. Reading its documentation.
2017-04-18T09:01:27Z Zhivago: An inspired notion. :)
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2017-04-18T09:03:05Z phoe: I think it does.
2017-04-18T09:03:06Z phoe: Thanks!
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2017-04-18T09:03:24Z Zhivago: Good luck. :)
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2017-04-18T09:21:05Z phoe: Zhivago: I still wonder.
2017-04-18T09:21:31Z phoe: I now have some capabilities for asynchronous programming, if I understand correctly, but I still have no idea how to put a task in "background".
2017-04-18T09:22:30Z phoe: Like, I want to create a task that will wait three seconds, print "foo" to *standard-output* and return 42.
2017-04-18T09:22:47Z phoe: And I will want to attach a callback to it, so that 42 is pushed somewhere.
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2017-04-18T09:29:21Z phoe: ooh, I think I need CL-ASYNC for that.
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2017-04-18T09:47:47Z shka: phoe: google common lisp blackbird
2017-04-18T09:48:00Z shka: or just use lparallel
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2017-04-18T09:50:13Z phoe: shka: no
2017-04-18T09:50:16Z phoe: I used blackbird
2017-04-18T09:50:23Z phoe: and all it does is implement futures.
2017-04-18T09:50:33Z shka: well, yes?
2017-04-18T09:50:34Z phoe: I still need a way to execute tasks "in background".
2017-04-18T09:50:45Z phoe: I cannot call 20 futures at once using just blackbird.
2017-04-18T09:50:48Z phoe: or so it seems.
2017-04-18T09:50:52Z shka: moment
2017-04-18T09:50:59Z shka: you make it needlessly complicated
2017-04-18T09:51:10Z shka: if you REALLY want to spawn 20 threads just do it
2017-04-18T09:52:08Z shka: write function that will create thread using BT and bind your callback into it, return promise, done
2017-04-18T09:52:16Z shka: it is not that complicated
2017-04-18T09:52:25Z shka: basicly pthreads
2017-04-18T09:52:39Z flip214: and lparallel really does provide a pmap* function set for exactly these things.
2017-04-18T09:52:49Z shka: yes, this as well
2017-04-18T09:53:18Z shka: but i'm under impression that phoe already considered using lparallel
2017-04-18T09:53:25Z shka: and rejected that idea
2017-04-18T09:53:29Z phoe: not really rejected
2017-04-18T09:53:35Z phoe: just thought that promises would be easier
2017-04-18T09:53:43Z shka: i'm not the one to doubt that judgment
2017-04-18T09:54:00Z shka: it is not really about promises
2017-04-18T09:54:08Z shka: it is about: do i want to spawn threads or not
2017-04-18T09:54:28Z phoe: how can I do 20 concurrent requests without threads?
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2017-04-18T09:55:00Z shka: well, poll?
2017-04-18T09:55:09Z phoe: easily?
2017-04-18T09:55:11Z flip214: phoe: some kind of state machine, select/poll/epoll etc.
2017-04-18T09:55:12Z flip214: no.
2017-04-18T09:55:21Z phoe: so lparallel it is.
2017-04-18T09:55:49Z shka: well, there is one issue with lparallel here
2017-04-18T09:55:57Z flip214: the easiest way forward is (quickload :lparallel) (setf lp:*kernel* (lp:make-kernel 20)) (print (lp:pmapcar #'http-get '("http://..."))
2017-04-18T09:55:59Z shka: you can actually saturate your workers
2017-04-18T09:56:00Z flip214: )
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2017-04-18T09:56:38Z shka: anyway, what i would really like to see are fibers/green threads
2017-04-18T09:56:58Z phoe: shka: the server is pretty damn slow. I expect these 20 threads to sleep most of the time and receive their responses at different times.
2017-04-18T09:56:59Z shka: but i was told it is hard to support both native and userland threads
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2017-04-18T09:57:56Z shka: phoe: give me a second, i will write you code that just spawns those threads and you will figure out if thats what you want
2017-04-18T10:00:01Z phoe: shka: I already got it with lparallel, I think
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2017-04-18T10:10:51Z phoe: yes, pmap is wonderful.
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2017-04-18T10:14:13Z shka: indeed
2017-04-18T10:14:29Z shka: phoe: it is not easy to write pmap yourself
2017-04-18T10:14:40Z shka: i'm really glad it is avaible
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2017-04-18T10:15:25Z shka: anyway
2017-04-18T10:15:32Z shka: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344553
2017-04-18T10:16:20Z shka: if you really want to spawn threads yourself, that's how you can do it
2017-04-18T10:16:40Z shka: luckly your use case is very simple
2017-04-18T10:16:58Z shka: no streams from/to threads or anything like that
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2017-04-18T12:18:12Z mazoe: blackbird's nicer syntax looks sweeet
2017-04-18T12:18:31Z mazoe: Extra fun when paired with anaphora
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2017-04-18T12:24:15Z shka: yeah, it is very nice implementation
2017-04-18T12:24:25Z shka: but it is more complicated
2017-04-18T12:24:56Z shka: and besides i am always using lparallel if i can, so why add extra library?
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2017-04-18T12:54:37Z evil`: hi,
2017-04-18T12:54:56Z shka: evil`: good day!
2017-04-18T12:55:02Z evil`: yeah!
2017-04-18T12:55:51Z evil`: well,
2017-04-18T12:56:04Z evil`: let's talk about scheme.
2017-04-18T12:56:27Z shka: heh, this channel is actually about common lisp
2017-04-18T12:56:39Z evil`: aha?
2017-04-18T12:56:45Z phoe: evil`: #scheme is a better place for that
2017-04-18T12:56:55Z phoe: #lisp is about Common Lisp
2017-04-18T12:56:56Z shka: personally i will not flame you for scheme, but others may
2017-04-18T12:57:08Z shka: this name is very unfortunate
2017-04-18T12:57:14Z phoe: ^
2017-04-18T12:57:23Z shka: sorry :(
2017-04-18T12:57:23Z evil`: ok
2017-04-18T12:57:34Z evil`: let's talk about cl.
2017-04-18T12:57:40Z phoe: haha
2017-04-18T12:57:44Z shka: sure, we can
2017-04-18T12:57:48Z phoe: I just became an owner of #common-lisp
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2017-04-18T12:57:59Z evil`: Did somebody made a game of common-lisp?
2017-04-18T12:58:09Z shka: sure
2017-04-18T12:58:11Z phoe: evil`: #lispgames
2017-04-18T12:58:15Z shka: many did
2017-04-18T12:58:16Z evil`: oh?
2017-04-18T12:58:22Z phoe: I feel so sorry for throwing channel names around
2017-04-18T12:58:34Z shka: evil`: wanna see cool video?
2017-04-18T12:58:42Z evil`: yeah
2017-04-18T12:58:47Z evil`: that's right.
2017-04-18T12:58:48Z shka: gimme a second
2017-04-18T12:58:58Z evil`: ok.
2017-04-18T12:59:50Z shka: oh, actually it is a series of videos
2017-04-18T12:59:59Z shka: and little outdated
2017-04-18T13:00:06Z shka: will find something better
2017-04-18T13:00:23Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEtlxJsPR40
2017-04-18T13:00:26Z evil`: haha,
2017-04-18T13:00:38Z shka: this video presents CEPL and Verjo
2017-04-18T13:00:48Z shka: it is quite awesome stuff
2017-04-18T13:01:18Z shka: very interactive approach to 3D programming
2017-04-18T13:01:45Z evil`: oh,it cannot be open.
2017-04-18T13:02:06Z shka: works for me :/
2017-04-18T13:02:11Z shka: anyway, back to work
2017-04-18T13:02:14Z evil`: :(
2017-04-18T13:02:19Z phoe: evil`: why cannot be open?
2017-04-18T13:02:25Z evil`: work time?
2017-04-18T13:02:29Z shka: have fun with LISP
2017-04-18T13:02:33Z shka: i am at the office
2017-04-18T13:02:38Z shka: and i'm slacking
2017-04-18T13:02:43Z shka: not a good thing! :D
2017-04-18T13:03:00Z phoe: evil`: oh, soon then
2017-04-18T13:03:03Z phoe: watch it later
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2017-04-18T13:03:35Z shka: it is worth it
2017-04-18T13:03:54Z shka: CEPL looks very promising
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2017-04-18T13:48:42Z evil`: haha,
2017-04-18T13:48:47Z evil`: see this video.
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2017-04-18T13:54:05Z beach: evil`: What about it?
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2017-04-18T13:57:41Z shka: beach: it is just that cool :-)
2017-04-18T13:58:43Z evil`: cool
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2017-04-18T13:59:50Z evil`: wat about this https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl ?
2017-04-18T14:00:42Z ogamita: evil`: there's currently some kind of hacking contest to do a CL game  IIRC. Ask them in #lispgames.
2017-04-18T14:01:43Z evil`: thanks.
2017-04-18T14:02:06Z ogamita: yep using cepl seems to be a good choice.
2017-04-18T14:02:36Z evil`: https://github.com/evilbinary/scheme-lib
2017-04-18T14:02:52Z evil`: This guys just use opengl?
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2017-04-18T14:04:57Z ogamita: as mentionned above, we don't know much about scheme here. Ask that again in #scheme?
2017-04-18T14:06:16Z shka: evil`: i don't speak nintendo but freeglut3 seems to be selfexplanatory
2017-04-18T14:06:20Z evil`: ogamita: scheme is not dialect of lisp?
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2017-04-18T14:07:30Z shka: evil`: lisp has many dialects, sharing common characteristics, but this has nothing to do with library ecosystems
2017-04-18T14:07:47Z shka: which are almost entierly separated
2017-04-18T14:07:47Z beach: evil`: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp".  That is why this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is perfectly well defined in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
2017-04-18T14:07:52Z pebblexe: how do I check if a variable is a hashtable?
2017-04-18T14:08:01Z shka: pebblexe: typep
2017-04-18T14:08:25Z ogamita: evil`: if you want lisp in general, use ##lisp, not #lisp.
2017-04-18T14:08:30Z shka: or hash-table-p
2017-04-18T14:08:42Z shka: pebblexe: choice is yours
2017-04-18T14:09:28Z evil`: right.
2017-04-18T14:09:33Z ogamita: (handler-case (gethash key table) (type-error () (princ "it wasn't a hashtable")))
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2017-04-18T14:10:18Z pebblexe: shka: thank you!
2017-04-18T14:10:25Z shka: pebblexe: there is also typecase
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2017-04-18T14:11:49Z beach: pebblexe: There is a very general rule in programming that you should use the construct that is the most specific one of all the ones that will do the trick.  In this case, it means that you should use HASH-TABLE-P rather than anything else.
2017-04-18T14:11:51Z ogamita: or again, not to test it: (defgeneric foo (x) (:method ((x hash-table)) (princ "it is")) (:method ((x t)) (princ "it is not")))
2017-04-18T14:12:17Z ogamita: I would say you should not have to test whether it is a hash-table normally!
2017-04-18T14:12:29Z beach: That's true too.
2017-04-18T14:13:08Z newdan: Does anyone know how to check what directories are scanned by Quicklisp/ASDF when loading systems?  On Linux I was able to make e.g. ~/common-lisp/foo/foo.asd and then (ql:quickload :foo), but I'm on OSX now and the same pattern doesn't seem to be working.  It just says 'system not found'
2017-04-18T14:13:13Z ogamita: This questions makes me remember of Delicatessen. Probably not a good sign.
2017-04-18T14:13:40Z ogamita: (the hash-table one).
2017-04-18T14:13:44Z pebblexe: newdan: the config file Xach mentions here helped me: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
2017-04-18T14:14:38Z pebblexe: ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/projects.conf -> (:tree (:home "src/lisp/")) or in your case  (:tree (:home "common-lisp/"))
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2017-04-18T14:15:07Z pebblexe: I'm not sure if it works on osx the same way though
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2017-04-18T14:16:02Z newdan: On Linux you don't even need a config, it just scans ~/common-lisp because I think it's a default in ASDF
2017-04-18T14:16:22Z newdan: That config file doesn't seem to be working although it might need to go in a different directory on OSX or something
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2017-04-18T14:17:35Z newdan: Oh wait a minute
2017-04-18T14:17:45Z newdan: My defsystem as ":foo"
2017-04-18T14:18:39Z newdan: Yup. (defsystem ":foo") is not good.  Removed the colon and now it loads.  Apologies for the noise...
2017-04-18T14:20:54Z phoe: newdan: (defsystem #:foo ...)
2017-04-18T14:21:02Z phoe: that's a convention around here IIRC
2017-04-18T14:21:12Z phoe: to put an uninterned symbol as the name
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2017-04-18T14:35:22Z rpg: pebblexe: it should work exactly the same on Mac OS.
2017-04-18T14:35:41Z rpg: pebblexe: but note that the configuration isn't re-explored, it is eagerly explored when first set.
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2017-04-18T14:36:26Z pebblexe: rpg: what do you mean by that second statement? that if I change my projects.conf it won't check it?
2017-04-18T14:36:37Z rpg: Not unless you tell it to.
2017-04-18T14:37:22Z pebblexe: huh, didn't know that
2017-04-18T14:37:37Z rpg: Fare changed the search code to do a pre-search and build a table of systems, rather than re-searching the set of directories on demand.
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2017-04-18T14:40:07Z rpg: pebblexe: actually, I don't know about projects.conf -- that's a quicklisp thing, not an ASDF thing.
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2017-04-18T16:47:00Z phoe: DRAKMA question.
2017-04-18T16:47:09Z phoe: Is there any way to copy cookie jars?
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2017-04-18T16:47:34Z burtons: just wondering, but wouldn't copy-tree work?
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2017-04-18T16:47:46Z phoe: burtons: I'd also need to copy objects which are seemingly mutable.
2017-04-18T16:48:31Z phoe: I wonder if I should actually care enough to copy the whole cookie jar for each request.
2017-04-18T16:48:45Z phoe: Or treat it as "immutable enough", even when making multiple threads sharing the same jar.
2017-04-18T16:48:54Z phoe: Depends on what the server sends me, heh.
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2017-04-18T17:48:15Z jasom: are object typically thread-safe (i.e. can you set two different slots concurrently in the same object)?
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2017-04-18T17:52:38Z phoe: jasom: I think yes, you should be able to concurrently set two different slots in the same object
2017-04-18T17:53:14Z phoe: but then again, it's concurrency
2017-04-18T17:53:31Z phoe: you're never sure until you look at the bottom of the implementation details
2017-04-18T17:53:58Z phoe: so I guess, take a look at how your implementation's CLOS implements slots for standard-objects
2017-04-18T17:54:05Z phoe: because different metaclasses will have it differently
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2017-04-18T18:19:26Z shka_: nah
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2017-04-18T18:19:53Z shka_: no SANE implementation would enforce thread synchronization when setting slot
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2017-04-18T18:20:02Z shka_: first of: it may be not enough
2017-04-18T18:20:10Z shka_: secondly: it is costly
2017-04-18T18:20:50Z shka_: the only reasonable approach i can see is: safe concurrent read, take care of concurrent write yourself
2017-04-18T18:21:42Z shka_: besides, synchronized methods akin to java approach are just stupid
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2017-04-18T18:29:35Z jasom: shka_: well no thread synchronization is required for most non-insertion operations on typical ways of implementing an associative structure, so writing is probably safe, and you can't add new slots to objects without changing its class
2017-04-18T18:32:15Z shka_: exactly
2017-04-18T18:32:52Z shka_: and that's the point where reasonable assumptions about anything in the context of threads ends
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2017-04-18T18:37:52Z shka_: you may have specialized library that implements more defined behavior
2017-04-18T18:38:07Z shka_: but key word is *specialized*
2017-04-18T18:38:36Z shka_: usually you don't need to (or want to) synchronize everything with everything
2017-04-18T18:39:39Z shka_: you can spend so much CPU time on that it is not even funny
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2017-04-18T18:55:00Z shka_: and amazingly this still won't make you program 100% thread safe
2017-04-18T18:55:41Z AeroNotix: Is the ulubis developer here?
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2017-04-18T20:55:27Z PSEUDO_SUE: hey, what's the best way to work with raw sockets in lisp (sbcl, specifically)? I want to have complete control over the transport and network layer headers.
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2017-04-18T20:59:56Z knobo: Took me a while to find out about the cl-postgres+local-time package and local-time:set-local-time-cl-postgres-readers
2017-04-18T21:00:14Z knobo: Better documentation would be greate help.
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2017-04-18T21:13:08Z Xach: PSEUDO_SUE: I don't know the best way, but I think if I were doing it, I'd write some sb-alien stuff.
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2017-04-18T21:16:25Z PSEUDO_SUE: looking into that now. thanks, Xach
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2017-04-18T21:31:07Z PSEUDO_SUE: hm, looks like sb-bsd-sockets might have what i need...
2017-04-18T21:32:39Z JuanDaugherty: that or something like iolib i should think
2017-04-18T21:33:03Z PSEUDO_SUE: oh, iolib is nice. does it have a raw socket interface?
2017-04-18T21:33:04Z JuanDaugherty: i'd use boost and ffi
2017-04-18T21:33:16Z PSEUDO_SUE: yeah, that's always an option
2017-04-18T21:33:36Z JuanDaugherty: for anything serious
2017-04-18T21:33:39Z prxq: JuanDaugherty: boost and ffi?
2017-04-18T21:33:49Z JuanDaugherty: otherwise convenience lib ftw
2017-04-18T21:34:05Z JuanDaugherty: prxq, y like asio oder
2017-04-18T21:34:22Z prxq: JuanDaugherty: what??
2017-04-18T21:34:54Z JuanDaugherty: you don't know what boost c++ libs are?
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2017-04-18T21:35:30Z prxq: JuanDaugherty: I know what boost c++ libs are, but "y like asio oder" reads like glibberish
2017-04-18T21:35:51Z prxq: and last time i checked, ffi to c++ was rather unstable
2017-04-18T21:36:12Z JuanDaugherty: in what sbcl?
2017-04-18T21:36:32Z JuanDaugherty: your opinion seems gibberishy to me
2017-04-18T21:36:34Z JuanDaugherty: so there
2017-04-18T21:36:56Z prxq: JuanDaugherty: what does "y like asio oder" mean?
2017-04-18T21:38:55Z JuanDaugherty: iolib does have sockets and ht uses usocket
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2017-04-18T21:57:10Z aeth: 5μμ
2017-04-18T21:57:15Z aeth: oops
2017-04-18T21:59:01Z fe[nl]ix: PSEUDO_SUE: yes. there's a small example of using raw sockets: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/extras/ping.lisp
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2017-04-18T22:03:38Z PSEUDO_SUE: thanks, fe[nl]ix!
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2017-04-19T02:53:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-19T03:08:11Z borei: hi all
2017-04-19T03:08:19Z beach: Hello borei.
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2017-04-19T03:09:39Z borei: beach: i did brain-storming - fianly removed "dim" from vector-3d, it doesn't fit well there :-)
2017-04-19T03:09:51Z beach: OK.
2017-04-19T03:10:08Z borei: question about good-bad style programming in lisp
2017-04-19T03:11:16Z borei: is it "good" to provide "constructor" for objects, or just provide initialize-instance and rely on "make-instance"
2017-04-19T03:11:18Z borei: ?
2017-04-19T03:11:43Z beach: I go back and forth about it.
2017-04-19T03:11:52Z borei: ha, interesting
2017-04-19T03:11:53Z beach: Sonja Keene favors constructors.
2017-04-19T03:12:12Z borei: yes, im following that book
2017-04-19T03:12:31Z borei: but final path is not clear for now
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2017-04-19T03:12:56Z nyef: It may be situational.
2017-04-19T03:12:57Z beach: She has a point, but it is tricky because sometimes the class to be instantiated must be determined dynamically.
2017-04-19T03:13:12Z nyef notes the use of MAKE-PANE in CLIM.
2017-04-19T03:13:42Z beach: Ah, yes, interesting.  A constructor that takes a class argument.
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2017-04-19T03:22:19Z knusbaum: Anyone have good info about idiomatic code documentation practice?
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2017-04-19T03:24:55Z knusbaum: s/info/documents/
2017-04-19T03:29:32Z nyef: "Document your code: The sanity you save may be your own."
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2017-04-19T03:36:37Z aeth: knusbaum: one style guide is https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml#Documentation
2017-04-19T03:37:17Z aeth: knusbaum: Personally, I try to use docstrings for everything that are exported, comments for non-obvious internal functions/macros/etc... but if it's non-obvious I first try to create smaller functions out of it with obvious names to try to make it self-documenting.
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2017-04-19T03:38:06Z aeth: Group things together logically and use ";;; Some heading" or ";;;; Some heading" for the groups
2017-04-19T03:39:13Z pillton: I use that in conjunction with a "pretty control L" mode for emacs.
2017-04-19T03:39:42Z aeth: ;;;; is for top of file, ;;; is for top-level that's not top of file, ;; is line comments inside a form, and ; is for end of line comments. I do not think there's a consensus as to whether to use ;;;; or ;;; for in-file headers that are not at the top like ";;;; Some things" or ";;; Some things"
2017-04-19T03:39:47Z aeth: At the top it's always ;;;;
2017-04-19T03:42:10Z aeth: s/headers/headings/
2017-04-19T03:44:12Z aeth: Docstrings are unfortunately inconsistent depending on what you're documenting. They could be an optional argument (like with constants), :documentation keyword (like with class slots), or the first line of the form (like with functions).
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2017-04-19T03:49:15Z knusbaum: right
2017-04-19T03:49:53Z shaftoe: there's still so much material in Practical Common Lisp that I glossed over in previous reads
2017-04-19T03:50:13Z knusbaum: I wasn't sure if anyone had published a guide or somesuch that people consider good.
2017-04-19T03:50:21Z aeth: There are several style guides.
2017-04-19T03:51:27Z aeth: This is another one: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps
2017-04-19T03:51:59Z aeth: It's afaik much older
2017-04-19T03:52:21Z aeth: It also has a section on documentation
2017-04-19T03:52:33Z aeth: starting on page 90
2017-04-19T03:52:49Z knusbaum: thanks
2017-04-19T03:53:33Z aeth: The Google Common Lisp Style Guide is more detailed
2017-04-19T03:55:12Z aeth: Commenting conventions in general from other languages will probably also work in Lisp, besides the always-standard semicolon rules (in CL, at least... other Lisps/Schemes can vary but this is a CL channel)
2017-04-19T03:55:24Z knusbaum: Just what I was looking for
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2017-04-19T04:00:42Z beach: Bike: I am thinking about CST code utilities.  For parsing lambda lists, I am now thinking that an Earley parser is the best solution.  It can be made so that it has good error reporting and error recovery.  It can also report ambiguous parse results, which might result from a client being too optimistic about additional lambda-list keywords.
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2017-04-19T04:01:23Z beach: Bike: The problem is that, whenever I think about Earley parsing, I want to make it general, and then I get distracted from other things.
2017-04-19T04:02:05Z beach: Perhaps this time, I'll just create a very simple Earley parser, include it in the CST code utilities, and maybe generalize it later.
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2017-04-19T04:03:35Z beach: In fact, Earley parsing is probably the best alternative for parsing LOOP syntax as well, but I'll think about changing SICL loop at some later time.
2017-04-19T04:07:20Z Bike: that sounds good to me, i have the same problem.
2017-04-19T04:07:40Z beach: The "generalization" problem?
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2017-04-19T04:09:32Z knusbaum: How do you all indent multi-line docstrings? Indenting puts weird whitespace in the actual docstring.
2017-04-19T04:10:01Z pillton: Are you using two ';' characters?
2017-04-19T04:10:14Z beach: knusbaum: I use #.(format nil "...") and then I use the ~@ directive to break lines.
2017-04-19T04:10:31Z knusbaum: ahh, perfect
2017-04-19T04:10:32Z beach: pillton: Docstrings.  Not comments.
2017-04-19T04:11:51Z pillton: knusbaum: Oh sorry. Your earlier questions regarding documentation confused me.
2017-04-19T04:12:17Z knusbaum: no problem. :)
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2017-04-19T04:13:59Z beach: knusbaum: Here is an example https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump/blob/master/Binary-tree/docstrings-english.lisp
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2017-04-19T04:19:53Z pillton: It would be good if there was a way for M-q to do the right thing on docstrings.
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2017-04-19T04:21:54Z White_Flame: (hence we need structure editors, not text editors)
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2017-04-19T04:41:28Z beach: White_Flame: Or some intermediate, like Second Climacs that has a very precise incremental parser for Common Lisp code.
2017-04-19T04:44:25Z pillton: You have the same problem when you write --help strings too.
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2017-04-19T05:17:42Z drmeister: beach: If I have a code walker that calls a function passing each form and environment - is it straightforward to convert that into a macroexpand-all function?
2017-04-19T05:18:02Z drmeister: I'm looking at the sbcl code and it looks considerably more involved than that.
2017-04-19T05:18:35Z beach: That's a very good question.  I have failed to come up with a specification of a general-purpose code walker.  There are just too many parameters for my little brain to deal with.
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2017-04-19T05:20:56Z drmeister: I've hijacked the two compilers to turn them into code walkers. But it doesn't seem good enough to implement macroexpand-all
2017-04-19T05:21:00Z Bike: maybe ask raskin.
2017-04-19T05:21:09Z beach: Very good plan.
2017-04-19T05:21:21Z drmeister: raskin?
2017-04-19T05:21:51Z Bike: michael raskin... though i haven't seen him on irc lately
2017-04-19T05:22:04Z drmeister: Wait - there was a code walker talk at ELS
2017-04-19T05:22:39Z beach: drmeister: Yes, that was him.  But you missed it didn't you?
2017-04-19T05:22:45Z nyef: My thought is, and has been for some time, that if you're using a code-walker, you're probably doing something wrong.
2017-04-19T05:23:20Z drmeister: I'm trying to implement macroexpand-all for slime.
2017-04-19T05:23:30Z drmeister: C-c M-e
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2017-04-19T05:23:46Z drmeister: One of the good reasons to have a code walker.
2017-04-19T05:25:35Z beach: Not to put words in nyef's mouth, but that probably means that "if you feel you need macroexpand-all, then you're probably doing something wrong". :)
2017-04-19T05:25:57Z nyef: Heh.
2017-04-19T05:26:08Z pillton: There are cases where you need it.
2017-04-19T05:26:30Z nyef: pillton: Do these cases involve macrolet?
2017-04-19T05:26:39Z nyef: Or symbol-macrolet?
2017-04-19T05:27:23Z Bike: it's nice to be able to expand lexical macros in slime though.
2017-04-19T05:28:24Z pillton: Some of the use cases of symbol-macrolet would be better done if you had macroexpand-all.
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2017-04-19T05:29:42Z beach: I know a good case for a code walker: The compiler.
2017-04-19T05:30:01Z pillton: That isn't portable though.
2017-04-19T05:30:05Z nyef: The compiler, and the evaluator, are the two good uses for a code walker that I'm aware of.
2017-04-19T05:30:34Z beach: Most compilers aren't portable.  And Raskin made a good point that a code walker can not be completely portable.
2017-04-19T05:30:55Z nyef: I'm not coming up with any uses for macroexpand-all that don't involve something having gone horribly, horribly wrong.
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2017-04-19T05:34:07Z nyef: ... And even then, it's not a tool that I am likely to employ. Ever.
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2017-04-19T05:35:04Z drmeister: I sent Michael Raskin an email
2017-04-19T05:35:51Z drmeister: The macro-step capabilities of slime use it to stepwise expand macros to help understand them.
2017-04-19T05:35:52Z pillton: Macro expansion imposes a breadth first search order on the tree of code to be processed. It is thus impossible for the presence of a nested form to alter the expansion of its parent.
2017-04-19T05:36:25Z drmeister: From reading Raskin's talk - the idea is you replace forms with macroexpanded forms as you walk the code?
2017-04-19T05:39:59Z nyef: pillton: So, effectively compiling some semantic superset of CL into CL, with some amount of spooky action at a distance?
2017-04-19T05:42:14Z pillton: I'm not sure what that means.
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2017-04-19T05:52:48Z pillton: An example is automatically generating a compiler macro function "wrapper" which ensures that the order of evaluation of arguments is consistent with its counterpart standard function.
2017-04-19T05:55:53Z beach: Interesting.
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2017-04-19T05:56:40Z pillton: I am doing this problem right now and I can't do it properly.
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2017-04-19T07:19:40Z ym: PilMCU is closed-source, right?
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2017-04-19T07:20:53Z ym: And there is no alive project like, but open-source.
2017-04-19T07:21:18Z ym: Is it so hard to program lisp machine in bare metal?
2017-04-19T07:21:27Z ym: I heard it's fun.
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2017-04-19T07:24:00Z ogamita: ym: no, it's not hard. If you want the experience, have a look at the clisp VM.  Write a clisp VM assembler! (check the sources of the clisp compiler (it's a single CL source file).
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2017-04-19T07:24:54Z p_l: or just look at how Movitz, SBCL-OS, or Mezzano do it
2017-04-19T07:25:59Z ym: Hrm. So the task is to translate one of them to Verilog.
2017-04-19T07:26:27Z p_l: umm... no. That would be a rather different thing (all of the above target x86 or amd64)
2017-04-19T07:27:07Z ym: Then I need to do this different thing.
2017-04-19T07:27:10Z p_l: if you want to make a physical design, you might be more interested in digging into old CADR documentation and sources (MIT's Lisp Machine, precursor to Symbolics, LMI, Explorer etc.)
2017-04-19T07:27:11Z ym: I must.
2017-04-19T07:27:54Z ym: Yep, I took a glance on MIT's machine.
2017-04-19T07:28:19Z ym: But I have no experience in Verilog or even more high-level hardware design.
2017-04-19T07:28:37Z ym: So I wonder if it hard enough to handle by one person.
2017-04-19T07:30:48Z p_l: building from scratch? Might be very hard if you don't have experience. Using a bunch of known IP cores might be easier
2017-04-19T07:31:06Z p_l: a lot depends on what kind of design you want (replicating classic CADR-derived systems or what)
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2017-04-19T07:32:07Z ym: I just want to be able to see how the whole thing works. Without black boxes.
2017-04-19T07:32:39Z ym: And have an ability to tweak it, of course.
2017-04-19T07:32:45Z p_l: ym: well, there are no black boxes in CADR (it was implemented with individual circuits, no chips)
2017-04-19T07:33:31Z ym: Yes, but I still not sure if I should even try to think about starting the work.
2017-04-19T07:34:17Z Bike: nothing wrong with learning (more about) how a computer works.
2017-04-19T07:37:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: ym: read this if you want to understand a computer down to the transistors, https://www.amazon.com/Code-Language-Computer-Hardware-Software/dp/0735611319
2017-04-19T07:38:18Z Bike: verilog (and vhdl) suck though. just not pleasant.
2017-04-19T07:38:36Z ym: Petit_Dejeuner, thanks.
2017-04-19T07:38:40Z ym: Bike, alternative?
2017-04-19T07:38:47Z p_l: not many
2017-04-19T07:38:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: verilisp?
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2017-04-19T07:39:03Z p_l: but you might start with something basic, dunno... like SICP which contains circuit simulator at the end?
2017-04-19T07:39:06Z Bike: migen seems cool, but i haven't used it
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2017-04-19T07:40:41Z shka: actually those HDLs are quite inspired by lisp
2017-04-19T07:40:52Z X-Scale: hardware description and simulation in Lisp/Scheme is something that appeals me
2017-04-19T07:43:18Z White_Flame: ym:  hardware design is kind of orthogonal to Lisp, though.  There's a ton of fundamentals to learn well before you get into adding lisp-isms into the hardware
2017-04-19T07:43:42Z White_Flame: you should absolutely first look into the disassemblies of common (x86 etc) lisps to see what sort of low level stuff they need to implement
2017-04-19T07:43:57Z p_l: and modern architectures don't really lack anything with regards to lisp
2017-04-19T07:43:57Z larsen: ym: re books: Code by Petzold is excellent. Another you might consider is "The Elements of Computing Systems"  https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/026214087X/ref=nosim/librarythin08-20
2017-04-19T07:44:30Z holycow: oo, what is the topic of todays weird conversation?  whos building a lisp machien?
2017-04-19T07:44:31Z holycow: :)
2017-04-19T07:44:32Z White_Flame: p_l: there could be a lot more assistance with garbage collection and basic math fast-pathing
2017-04-19T07:44:50Z p_l: one thing to keep in mind is that when CONS and CADR were made, there weren't "personal" computers with paging hw, and even superminis often had custom paging hw for specific OSes
2017-04-19T07:45:04Z holycow: larsen: that looks like an amazing book.  thank you.  added to list.
2017-04-19T07:45:04Z p_l: White_Flame: SBCL already fast-paths basic math by using lowtags
2017-04-19T07:45:21Z White_Flame: I wouldn't necessarily call that a fast-path
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2017-04-19T07:45:29Z White_Flame: especially compared to a hardware one
2017-04-19T07:45:42Z ym: Thanks for suggestions.
2017-04-19T07:46:00Z larsen: holycow: :)
2017-04-19T07:46:07Z p_l: White_Flame: considering it is a hardware one (i.e. using lowtag of 0 you can use plain math instructions) ...
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2017-04-19T07:46:27Z White_Flame: p_l: yeah, but first you have to test those bits,a nd that test is normally behind a GENERIC-+ style function call
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2017-04-19T07:47:12Z White_Flame: as opposed to a hardware add instruction that will immediately deal with fixnums & floats, and call a handler if it's bignum or rational or whatever else
2017-04-19T07:47:50Z p_l: White_Flame: general experience of last few decades still suggests that doing it in compiler is better than getting locked into hw implementation
2017-04-19T07:48:08Z p_l: (which wasn't actually hw on pretty much any LispM, except maybe the unreleased K-machine)
2017-04-19T07:48:13Z White_Flame: yeah, if we had JIT recompilers, which we don't :)
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2017-04-19T07:48:28Z White_Flame: that's how JS and Java get their speed, after all
2017-04-19T07:49:09Z White_Flame: whereas the only way to get that same fast-path for something like math, or avoiding other type checks, requires manual programmer intervention in CL
2017-04-19T07:49:15Z p_l: White_Flame: I meant that it is easier to make an efficient type-inferring compiler or profiling recompiler than to bring more speed to locked hardware
2017-04-19T07:49:38Z White_Flame: yeah, I'd put stock in the latter
2017-04-19T07:49:43Z White_Flame: (profiling recompiler)
2017-04-19T07:50:09Z White_Flame: but if you're going to do custom hardware design for lisp, that stuff I think should absolutely go into the instruction level nowadays
2017-04-19T07:50:10Z p_l: Anyway, On lispm's it was still in software, just microcoded
2017-04-19T07:50:26Z White_Flame: yep
2017-04-19T07:51:39Z p_l: White_Flame: in hw only if you want to lock yourself out of changing it in the future. Better investment would be in good TLB and cache control instructions and possibly tagged data support (without assigning any importance to the tags)
2017-04-19T07:51:55Z White_Flame: I'm talking about a type of project ym brought up
2017-04-19T07:52:08Z White_Flame: besides, the compiler would change with the hardware
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2017-04-19T07:52:38Z White_Flame: packaged "native code" as a primary executable distrubition is dumb
2017-04-19T07:52:47Z holycow: p_l: yeah, i also thought about the whole lisp operating system as well. your position kind of applies there as well.  it would make more sense to generalize the lis os out into userland and then write native interfaces into whatever kernel you want to target freeing your self from the need to write all of those drivers.
2017-04-19T07:53:27Z p_l: White_Flame: you should look into how OS/400 does it, where the package (and compiler output) format is a bytecode for an abstract machine which is then specifically compiled for used CPU at install time
2017-04-19T07:53:35Z holycow: i love the idea of lisp all the way down, not sure if it is worth it.  it's worth it to play around with the ideas of course
2017-04-19T07:53:41Z White_Flame: p_l:  yeah, there's plenty of examples
2017-04-19T07:53:55Z White_Flame: even .class files and minfied .js qualify
2017-04-19T07:54:18Z holycow: i didn't know that about os/400.
2017-04-19T07:54:22Z p_l: wouldn't say .js qualifies
2017-04-19T07:54:33Z White_Flame: holycow: it very very likely won't match the speed of lisp on x64
2017-04-19T07:54:48Z p_l: in case of OS/400, nearly everything (including device drivers) targets the VM and is unaware of underlying CPU
2017-04-19T07:54:51Z White_Flame: (if you mean a custom lisp-oriented CPU at the bottom)
2017-04-19T07:55:21Z holycow: p_l: that is kind of how i imagined a modern version of genera would need to be built
2017-04-19T07:55:40Z p_l: a modern version of genera might fit more likely with Inferno model
2017-04-19T07:55:47Z White_Flame: (it's how _everything_ should be built :-P )
2017-04-19T07:55:47Z holycow: White_Flame: *nod*
2017-04-19T07:55:48Z p_l: though Inferno used drivers written in C
2017-04-19T07:56:25Z White_Flame: native binaries are security issues and incompatibility issues rolled into 1 convenient package
2017-04-19T07:56:48Z p_l: but generally, Inferno was "kernel in C exposing standard set of interfaces, everything else in JIT-compiled or interpreted Dis bytecode"
2017-04-19T07:56:55Z p_l: White_Flame: s/security issues//g
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2017-04-19T07:57:19Z p_l: native or not has not as much impact on security as some people think, except for assumption "native == C"
2017-04-19T07:57:49Z White_Flame: assumption is "native == machine code"
2017-04-19T07:58:02Z holycow: p_l: are you referring to inferno as in the successor to plan 9?
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2017-04-19T07:58:26Z p_l: holycow: not so much successor, as they went into slightly different niches, but they are very strongly related
2017-04-19T07:58:41Z holycow: oh ok.  just making sure i'm googling the right things
2017-04-19T07:59:41Z p_l: holycow: but the general idea was that you could port the C core onto any machine you could fit it in, even without MMU, and get a multitasking system with protected memory out
2017-04-19T07:59:52Z holycow: huh
2017-04-19T08:00:57Z White_Flame: and if you could just load & run native binary code, that would break the protection assumptions, hence be a security hole
2017-04-19T08:01:08Z White_Flame: (mostly on MMU-less CPUs)
2017-04-19T08:01:32Z shka don't like Limbo language
2017-04-19T08:01:52Z shka: but design of inferno seems to be very sound
2017-04-19T08:01:53Z p_l: shka: technically you aren't limited to Limbo, just nobody bothered
2017-04-19T08:02:31Z shka: right
2017-04-19T08:03:11Z shka: anyway, i am a little bit dissapointed that concept of distributed OS regressed
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2017-04-19T08:03:43Z White_Flame: it's hard to make distributed systems completely transparent
2017-04-19T08:03:50Z White_Flame: at least with usable performance expectations
2017-04-19T08:04:05Z shka: yes
2017-04-19T08:04:09Z White_Flame: hence distribution tends to be specifically configure per application
2017-04-19T08:04:13Z White_Flame: *configured
2017-04-19T08:04:24Z shka: it is true, but at the same time
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2017-04-19T08:04:48Z shka: building distributed app is not any easy task as well
2017-04-19T08:05:05Z shka: i would prefer to have system that can aid me with that
2017-04-19T08:05:17Z holycow: shka: one might say the time is not right yet.  certainly economies of scale keeps distributed systems more local than one might like to see
2017-04-19T08:05:25Z White_Flame: any messaging layer tends to bring you up to speed very quickly
2017-04-19T08:06:08Z shka: sure, but it tends to go into myriad of ad hock hacks
2017-04-19T08:06:36Z holycow: it might be just that we don't have enough distributed archictecture to fully get a fully distributed system a la plan9.  however, now with lots of neat distribute file systems, storage nodes in one place and process nodes in another, we might actually see the distributed system.
2017-04-19T08:07:08Z holycow: and the distributed system may and up being some sort of bizarro frankenstein no one imagined before.
2017-04-19T08:07:24Z White_Flame: does any existing distributed filesystem not suck though? :-P  In terms of scalability and ease of dropping in new nodes transparently?
2017-04-19T08:07:35Z shka: actually, if you look at what big data stack tries to do, it is basicly some kind of distributed OS
2017-04-19T08:07:53Z holycow: shka: agreed
2017-04-19T08:08:12Z holycow: a bunch of distributed processing 'servers' + remote interfaces
2017-04-19T08:08:35Z shka: White_Flame: why do we even need distributed file system? Just go toward distributed database.
2017-04-19T08:08:51Z White_Flame: I'm not a big fan of schemas
2017-04-19T08:09:07Z White_Flame: (at least for the traditional sense of "database")
2017-04-19T08:09:14Z shka: well, we can work on that
2017-04-19T08:09:15Z holycow: just to give you an example, i'm building a workstation running kvm virtualiazation software with native gpu passthrough.  two guest oses running effectively at native speed all sitting on top of another host os.  it's the matrix all the way down.
2017-04-19T08:09:26Z shka: but i don't consider filesystem to be essential
2017-04-19T08:09:41Z White_Flame: sure, just persistence is
2017-04-19T08:09:50Z shka: agreed
2017-04-19T08:10:03Z holycow: it's not super mind bending but once can see a lisp based image that you can run on any process node that has access to distribute storage that you can access from anywhere in the world.
2017-04-19T08:10:18Z holycow: on your phone and remote desktops you can have rdp clients into the system
2017-04-19T08:10:32Z shka: i don't really know what is the core reason of unstability of FS, but on the other hand DBs somehow manage to work quite well
2017-04-19T08:10:39Z holycow: the image you can move wherever you want and still retain access to storage and vice versa
2017-04-19T08:10:43Z holycow: we are kind of there right now
2017-04-19T08:11:04Z shka: yes\
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2017-04-19T08:11:34Z shka: hopefully someday
2017-04-19T08:11:44Z White_Flame: yeah, docker is basically the "image that you can run on any process node", the rest is connectivity
2017-04-19T08:11:55Z holycow: yeah
2017-04-19T08:12:31Z White_Flame: shka: FS vs DB, filesystems are much more fine-grained in their operations
2017-04-19T08:12:47Z shka: i guess…
2017-04-19T08:12:55Z White_Flame: and the speed expectations are vastly different
2017-04-19T08:14:04Z holycow: i have thought for a while now that someone could get a lisp os built and then use the linux kernel as an interface between it self and whatever hardware it wanted to talk to
2017-04-19T08:14:19Z holycow: i'm talking out of my arse though, i have no idea about kernel programming
2017-04-19T08:14:34Z White_Flame: I'd be perfectly happy with a fully user-space Lisp "OS" environment
2017-04-19T08:14:46Z shka: yes
2017-04-19T08:14:51Z holycow: well, mezzano is sort of on its way there
2017-04-19T08:15:06Z White_Flame: given that you're not on highly constrained resources, the OS doesn't add a lot of practical overhead
2017-04-19T08:15:11Z White_Flame: and gains you a lot of advantages
2017-04-19T08:15:11Z holycow: proof of concept is kind of done .. well several times now i guess
2017-04-19T08:15:18Z holycow: that was my thinking
2017-04-19T08:15:29Z holycow: instead of writing the kernel in lisp, leave that to linux or whatever kernel team you want
2017-04-19T08:15:34Z shka: mezzano does use separate kernel?
2017-04-19T08:15:36Z holycow: and start consuming the userland
2017-04-19T08:15:46Z holycow: shka: no, it does its own thing
2017-04-19T08:15:53Z shka: rigth
2017-04-19T08:15:59Z holycow: but in it's case it looks like a difference without a difference
2017-04-19T08:16:19Z holycow: if you wrote your own userland in lisp, your 'kernel' would be interface between the userland and whatever kernel you used
2017-04-19T08:16:38Z holycow: and if you used native linux virtualization, each users would be fully virtualized natively
2017-04-19T08:17:21Z holycow: within the image you would still need to develop a security model so you would still need to have a kind of local kernel handling that
2017-04-19T08:17:43Z holycow: you would want to give users the option to run a fully set of security contexts or none ... as they see fit.
2017-04-19T08:18:21Z attila_lendvai is very surprised by the Mezzano readme that claims to be an OS, but begins with a description of keyboard shortcuts...
2017-04-19T08:18:30Z shka: let me wrap my mind around it
2017-04-19T08:18:48Z White_Flame: why?  its display manager is effectively part of the OS
2017-04-19T08:18:53Z holycow: attila_lendvai: at the level of mezanno there is no difference between userland, kernel and the text editor really
2017-04-19T08:19:43Z shka: holycow: i did not consider native virtualization, suddenly Lisp OS sounds a lot more reasonable
2017-04-19T08:19:48Z holycow: only if the project grows will encapsulation be required
2017-04-19T08:20:05Z holycow: shka: linux makes it totally doable.  it is really an amazing kernel
2017-04-19T08:21:02Z holycow: shka: i have sbcl running on this: https://nextthing.co/pages/pocketchip
2017-04-19T08:21:08Z shka: so what we need is essentially kernel that has driver for linux
2017-04-19T08:21:12Z shka: woooooooooaha
2017-04-19T08:21:16Z shka: NICE!
2017-04-19T08:21:53Z shka: anyway
2017-04-19T08:21:59Z holycow: if i were to remove everything but the kernel and userland and throw mezanno on there as a virtual machine (someone far smarter than me would have to write that mezanno feature) you basically have that
2017-04-19T08:22:37Z holycow: shka: that is how i see it.  someone would write the linux kernel <--> sbcl interface and voila
2017-04-19T08:22:38Z shka: you would not even need so much out of mezzano anyway
2017-04-19T08:22:49Z holycow: i mean without using cffi ... maybe cffi is enough
2017-04-19T08:23:22Z holycow: shka: mezanno is pefectly usable now.  windows 3.1 doesn't work as well as mezanno and that had hundreds of paid programmers working on it
2017-04-19T08:23:51Z shka: ok, this is probabbly by far easiest way to get Lisp OS for real world
2017-04-19T08:24:08Z shka: damn, this can be so neat
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2017-04-19T08:24:14Z holycow: now we just gotta find some white knight with 100mil to throw around and pay some people to write this niche userland tha tno one will use
2017-04-19T08:24:17Z holycow: heh
2017-04-19T08:24:55Z shka: well, i think that lisp can be very well suited for building distributed system
2017-04-19T08:25:05Z shka: you would have something that can work on almost anything
2017-04-19T08:25:22Z holycow: well, there is a problem there
2017-04-19T08:25:26Z holycow: if you think about the linux desktop
2017-04-19T08:25:37Z holycow: gnome and kde are essentially what we are talking about
2017-04-19T08:25:47Z holycow: they are a kind of runtime on top of linux kernel
2017-04-19T08:26:19Z holycow: they simply assume they will be running on native hardware and have not really been "virtualized" ... and yet no one really uses linux out there
2017-04-19T08:26:19Z shka: well, i was thinking more about remote controling of industrial stuff and things like that
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2017-04-19T08:26:52Z holycow: ah, right.  that is probably the best case scenario as everything splinters.  we end up in a niche of a niche somewhere
2017-04-19T08:26:52Z shrdlu68: I feel like something is brewing here. So much talk of Lisp OSes lately.
2017-04-19T08:27:15Z shka: that is actually very important niche
2017-04-19T08:27:40Z shka: relabile distributed stuff is really needed
2017-04-19T08:27:44Z holycow: the iot stuff will probably take that over and create their own interfaces
2017-04-19T08:27:50Z holycow: and do it poorly, as always
2017-04-19T08:28:01Z shka: IoT stack is garbage
2017-04-19T08:28:15Z shka: especially consumer IoT
2017-04-19T08:28:18Z holycow: if they are cheap and and to the market first, they win, although i'm not a pessimist
2017-04-19T08:28:23Z holycow: oh totally
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2017-04-19T08:30:10Z shka: anyway, my point is that it can be useful for many use cases
2017-04-19T08:30:29Z holycow: possibly, i don't know enough to be honest
2017-04-19T08:30:57Z shka: you could totally build cluster stuff as well but this crowd is all about java and python nowdays
2017-04-19T08:31:07Z holycow: as long as we are thinking about deconstructing things, if you think about the pc, i was looking at my motherboard the other day and wondered why is everything soldered on to the mobo
2017-04-19T08:31:19Z holycow: why is the sound chip, usb, cpu and all that on th emotherboard?
2017-04-19T08:31:35Z shka: because why not?
2017-04-19T08:31:39Z holycow: why isn't the mobo just a giant set of pcie16x ports
2017-04-19T08:31:45Z holycow: and everthing is on an expansion riser
2017-04-19T08:31:53Z holycow: yeah exactly, why not, it's always been that way
2017-04-19T08:31:55Z White_Flame: cost
2017-04-19T08:32:00Z holycow: and that right
2017-04-19T08:32:05Z shrdlu68: And why can't I hotplug a cpu like I can a gpu?
2017-04-19T08:32:25Z White_Flame: you can hotplug your gpu?
2017-04-19T08:32:29Z holycow: but then it occured to me, that i almost NEVER use the full power of my intel cpu. like ever, except gaming and some occasional 3d or graphics editing
2017-04-19T08:32:33Z holycow: and there it is offloaded to the gpu
2017-04-19T08:32:57Z holycow: what if the motherboard was just a set of expansion slots and your northbridge / southbridge was one card
2017-04-19T08:33:18Z White_Flame: you'd probably get higher latency, higher power consumption, and lower speed as well
2017-04-19T08:33:30Z holycow: and your processing cards were giant cards packed with arm cpus
2017-04-19T08:33:34Z holycow: another for ram
2017-04-19T08:33:40Z holycow: another for gfx and so forth
2017-04-19T08:33:51Z holycow: hell the bootloader would be on a card
2017-04-19T08:34:38Z shka: heh, i'm not so interested in hardware, really
2017-04-19T08:35:23Z Ukari quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-04-19T08:35:24Z shrdlu68: I like the idea. How practica is it?
2017-04-19T08:35:59Z holycow: understood.  just pointing out that we currently are living with some old designs because they work and as you guys said they are cheap. BUT! we also live at a time when a whole bunch of new things are already possible
2017-04-19T08:36:10Z holycow: this is why people say things like above "i feel like something is brewing"
2017-04-19T08:36:21Z holycow: amazing things are possible, we just don't have the money to play with any of it
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2017-04-19T08:37:14Z holycow: shrdlu68: no idea.  but there is a 64 core arm based soc you can buy for 100 $ or so out there.  i forgot the name
2017-04-19T08:37:40Z shrdlu68: Yeah I heard about it.
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2017-04-19T08:37:51Z shrdlu68: I'll buy it one of these days.
2017-04-19T08:38:00Z holycow: i cannot find the link but yeah, i think you know
2017-04-19T08:38:21Z White_Flame: do you mean tilera or one of those?
2017-04-19T08:38:21Z holycow: i have a pocket chip already, i pre-ordered one of these: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/
2017-04-19T08:38:44Z White_Flame: the many-core streaming oriented chips aren't very general purpose
2017-04-19T08:38:45Z holycow: here is the intersting part of the pyra, one sec:
2017-04-19T08:38:59Z holycow: White_Flame: it had a different name, sec
2017-04-19T08:39:11Z White_Flame: ah, the good ol' OpenPandora, which I never received
2017-04-19T08:39:16Z holycow: here are the dev costs for pyra: https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/money-makes-the-world-go-round.80207/
2017-04-19T08:39:26Z holycow: that whole thing is built by one guy
2017-04-19T08:39:36Z holycow: White_Flame: oh, you got hosed for your order? really?
2017-04-19T08:39:45Z White_Flame: yep, many many years ago
2017-04-19T08:39:52Z holycow: huh.  did you get your money back?
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2017-04-19T08:39:55Z White_Flame: nope
2017-04-19T08:40:00Z holycow: wow. why not?
2017-04-19T08:40:26Z White_Flame: why would I?  they ran out of money and pulled out of their obligations
2017-04-19T08:40:35Z holycow: huh
2017-04-19T08:40:38Z holycow: i did not hear about that
2017-04-19T08:40:44Z White_Flame: tons of people got screwed over
2017-04-19T08:41:06Z holycow: i will google that
2017-04-19T08:41:21Z White_Flame: although some decided to pay hundreds of euros more to "upgrade" to buying one of the newer models when it transfered to the new dragonwhatever guy
2017-04-19T08:41:25Z holycow: there are a ton of these kinds of things: https://www.pine64.org/?page_id=1194
2017-04-19T08:41:48Z holycow: White_Flame: ohhhhhh ... really?  huh.
2017-04-19T08:42:37Z White_Flame: imagine a kickstarter failure except without kickstarter.  same thing
2017-04-19T08:42:39Z holycow: anyway, shrdlu68 i imagine it is doable but requires millions in dev costs to even contemplate.
2017-04-19T08:42:50Z holycow: White_Flame: that is too bad.
2017-04-19T08:43:11Z White_Flame: and the original guy ("greg"?) started playing ponzi schemes with orders before it collapsed
2017-04-19T08:43:53Z White_Flame: ie, get new payments, use the money to get fewer older paid customers' item shipped
2017-04-19T08:44:16Z holycow: if you look at the videos on youtube for the pyra, the design is really neat.  the main module with keyboard is separate from the cpu.  either could be upgraded independently.  i can imagine the idea of 'modular' computing starting to actualy bubble up even though google gave up on the modular phone
2017-04-19T08:44:33Z holycow: White_Flame: oh, aha. got in too deep and could not get out.
2017-04-19T08:44:42Z holycow: sorry to hear about that.
2017-04-19T08:44:45Z White_Flame: yeah, I think the design really hasn't changed since the openpandora days, except for parts that are no longer available
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2017-04-19T08:45:54Z holycow: White_Flame: yeah, so i'm looking to see how much of my desktop i can recreate on the pyra and the pocket chip
2017-04-19T08:46:05Z holycow: i know i can run any linux login manager so we are good there
2017-04-19T08:46:22Z holycow: my window manager is stumpwm and now that sbcl runs on arm i can run that on all of those devices
2017-04-19T08:46:30Z holycow: the rest of the software seems to be there
2017-04-19T08:46:40Z holycow: so they are all now keyboard driven interfaces so that should work
2017-04-19T08:47:13Z holycow: i'm learning some more lisp so i can write a small display helper (chooser i guess) so it is easier to start apps on touch screens and small screens
2017-04-19T08:47:47Z holycow: so kind of like that scene in terminator 2 where the chrome robot re-assembles it self, something is pulling it self together
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2017-04-19T08:49:14Z holycow: the biggest issue is lack of 3d acceleration, the graphics chipsets are proprietary so that is a bummer.
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2017-04-19T08:50:44Z White_Flame: so if I'm reading this correctly, the pyra still isn't released yet?
2017-04-19T08:50:53Z holycow: correct, not yet
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2017-04-19T08:51:10Z White_Flame: wow, that's a loooong time
2017-04-19T08:51:26Z holycow: it is.  its one dude working on it.  that dragon dude
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2017-04-19T08:52:07Z holycow: https://www.youtube.com/user/EvilDragon1717/videos  <-- a few of the last videos show you the statuts of the device
2017-04-19T08:52:14Z White_Flame: um, according to that costs page, it seems like he's farmed out a lot of work
2017-04-19T08:52:59Z holycow: yeah.  i've never built anything of that sort, i have no idea what is involved.
2017-04-19T08:53:56Z holycow: i think the more he farms out the better.  one person can only really do so much.
2017-04-19T08:54:21Z holycow: apparently he found a company in the eu that specializes in keyboard materials so he could get that keyboard pad built
2017-04-19T08:54:32Z White_Flame: but in any case, I think that phones/tablets have subsumed that fully portable form factor;  keyboard is in theory nice, but I've worked on N900s and small bluetooth keyboards and such, and it's simply not really workable.
2017-04-19T08:54:33Z holycow: i would have tried to do that my self and created some abomination
2017-04-19T08:54:51Z holycow: White_Flame: i disagree for two reasons:
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2017-04-19T08:55:08Z holycow: a) i run blackberry devices.  keyboard is a must, i can type faster than anyone on any keboard. seriously.
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2017-04-19T08:55:18Z White_Flame: um, no ;)
2017-04-19T08:55:38Z holycow: :) i've not met anyone that can type faster, you may be the first
2017-04-19T08:55:49Z White_Flame: you can do 100+ wpm on handhelds?
2017-04-19T08:56:04Z White_Flame: that's not unreasonably fast
2017-04-19T08:56:08Z White_Flame: for real keyboards
2017-04-19T08:56:17Z holycow: no one can doo 100wpm on mobile
2017-04-19T08:56:28Z White_Flame: right, so it's inferior in that form factor
2017-04-19T08:56:31Z holycow: i can type faster than any ios or android user is all i claom
2017-04-19T08:56:35Z holycow: claim even! hehe
2017-04-19T08:56:55Z White_Flame: well, I'd say that's irrelevant, because "top of the poor usability pile" is still in the poor usability pile
2017-04-19T08:57:03Z joga: I think I can sometimes do close to 100wpm on n900...
2017-04-19T08:57:10Z holycow: b) i have one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rii-Mini-2-4GHz-i8-Wireless-Keyboard-Mouse-for-PC-XBox-360-PS4-Android-TV-Box-/151686600304
2017-04-19T08:57:15Z joga: for short periods with simple irc babble
2017-04-19T08:57:16Z joga: :)
2017-04-19T08:57:22Z holycow: the one in that picture has a terible kb layout, i have one with a better faster layout
2017-04-19T08:57:48Z joga: still waiting for replacement for it but using it for now since 8 years at least..
2017-04-19T08:57:52Z holycow: White_Flame: not sure what the point is.  for a mobile device you still need character input.  you either do it with a physical kb or virtual
2017-04-19T08:58:00Z holycow: phystical keyboard are actually amazing
2017-04-19T08:58:10Z holycow: joga: that is impressive :)
2017-04-19T08:58:19Z joga: using a virtual keyboard on a bus or something is pretty hopeless
2017-04-19T08:58:27Z White_Flame: I've used tons of variations of touch keyboards and physical keyboards for many years
2017-04-19T08:58:36Z joga: even on a big tablet it's unbearably slow and terrible
2017-04-19T08:59:06Z holycow: joga: i agree.  i workde hard to get virtual keyboards to work well.  the only one that comes close to usable is on the iphone for me.
2017-04-19T08:59:10Z White_Flame: the fact of the matter is that typing sucks in mobile/pocketable uses, so it's fine with the bare minimum anyway
2017-04-19T08:59:20Z holycow: i just gave up and went to blackberry physical keyboards.  there is no point in wasting time.
2017-04-19T08:59:22Z joga: I use my phone 99.99% for ssh
2017-04-19T09:00:13Z holycow: White_Flame: totally understand what you mean.  however, that mini wireless kb is what i use at home on my pc sitting in my chair to ssh and do sysadmin things. i have one with fast key travel so its pretty good.
2017-04-19T09:00:16Z joga: intarnet has become so bloated anyway the poor old maemo browser is struggling with even the simplest of pages because of all the javascript
2017-04-19T09:00:27Z holycow: when i'm not able to type fast enough i switch to a regular keyboard
2017-04-19T09:01:15Z White_Flame: holycow: yeah, I've been looking for a nice floating keyboard/mouse combo for the living room, where occasional use is fine for the RPi.  However, that's not mobile use, where you're schlepping around both your screen-based device and external keyboard like that
2017-04-19T09:01:18Z holycow: so it is doable, the keyboard on mobile has not gone away imho.  it works great.  for users that just do simple texting android virtual kb is fine or whatever.
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2017-04-19T09:01:47Z holycow: White_Flame: well no, i think we are miscommunicating.  we are talkinga bout different things.
2017-04-19T09:02:00Z joga: something like this might be usable for my purposes though it's "bulky" https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gpd-pocket-7-0-umpc-laptop-ubuntu-or-win-10-os-laptop--2#/
2017-04-19T09:02:03Z holycow: my blackberry has a keyboard. so its a physical keyboard on a mobile device
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2017-04-19T09:02:35Z White_Flame: right, I was referring to stuff like the wireless keyboard you linked
2017-04-19T09:02:35Z holycow: the pyra has 3g/4g built in ... so the moment that becomes viable, the pyra will take over my sysadmin stuff from a mobile device.
2017-04-19T09:02:53Z holycow: the phoen will just become for phone calls, i will no longer care about if my phone has a keyboard.
2017-04-19T09:03:03Z holycow: White_Flame: oh no! hehe!
2017-04-19T09:03:17Z joga: this was also interesting but seems the people behind it may not deliver and linux support is questionable... https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gemini-pda-android-linux-keyboard-mobile-device-phone#/
2017-04-19T09:03:21Z holycow: no that is useless for that, that is for home.  i'm too lazy to use a proper keyboard when sitting on the couch.
2017-04-19T09:03:32Z joga: but at least they recognize the need for such a device
2017-04-19T09:03:32Z holycow: that mobile keyboard controls the tv, computer, everything for me.
2017-04-19T09:03:52Z holycow: joga: looking
2017-04-19T09:04:27Z holycow: joga: yeah its great they are doing that BUT ... i can tell you why that will fail
2017-04-19T09:04:33Z holycow: the keyboard is NOT thumb oriented
2017-04-19T09:04:37Z holycow: it is a mini kb
2017-04-19T09:04:39Z White_Flame: which is a good thing
2017-04-19T09:04:40Z holycow: that is going to be hard to use
2017-04-19T09:04:47Z holycow: i know, i had something like that 10 years ago
2017-04-19T09:04:50Z White_Flame: I had a Jornada 720 back in the day, probably the best keyboard on such a device I've used
2017-04-19T09:04:53Z holycow: i still have the device
2017-04-19T09:05:08Z holycow: with that exact size of keybaord keys
2017-04-19T09:05:39Z holycow: is separate keyboard use into two distinct categories:  thumb oriented + palm oriented
2017-04-19T09:05:52Z holycow: both are compeletely different types of use cases imho
2017-04-19T09:06:11Z holycow: if you cant use the gemeni with a thumb you are not going to really get much out of it
2017-04-19T09:06:20Z White_Flame: thumb is dumb ;)
2017-04-19T09:06:34Z holycow: heh it works fine for certain things.
2017-04-19T09:07:10Z holycow: the gemeni looks awesome tho, thx for the linkage joga
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2017-04-19T09:09:38Z holycow: joga: i cannot find the link, but i have an old asus laptop almost exactly the same size as the gemeni
2017-04-19T09:09:58Z holycow: it was hard to use because it was just big enough that you could not thumb it, just small enough that typing was super cramped.
2017-04-19T09:10:00Z argoneus: hello
2017-04-19T09:10:24Z Ukari joined #lisp
2017-04-19T09:10:24Z argoneus: can I discuss lisp IDEs here?
2017-04-19T09:10:28Z argoneus: or just the language
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2017-04-19T09:10:53Z beach: argoneus: You can discuss IDEs.
2017-04-19T09:10:56Z White_Flame: this channel is Common Lisp oriented, so if you're talking about Scheme or something it's better off in #scheme, etc
2017-04-19T09:11:05Z White_Flame: *Scheme IDE
2017-04-19T09:11:08Z joga: holycow, check this also for cons... https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=99022
2017-04-19T09:11:11Z argoneus: I was wondering which Common Lisp IDE was recommended for a beginner on windows
2017-04-19T09:11:17Z joga stops off-topic conv :)
2017-04-19T09:11:18Z argoneus: I found multiple, lispworks looking the best, but it's paid
2017-04-19T09:11:25Z White_Flame: Emacs is the best supported environment for Windows
2017-04-19T09:11:34Z argoneus: oh, huh
2017-04-19T09:11:35Z White_Flame: it's ... different, but it's worth learning for the Lisp support
2017-04-19T09:11:45Z argoneus: oki
2017-04-19T09:11:49Z White_Flame: actually, remove "for Windows" from the previous statement :-P
2017-04-19T09:11:58Z argoneus: can I use the same environment for other dialects too?
2017-04-19T09:12:02Z argoneus: like if I decided to learn clojure or such
2017-04-19T09:12:15Z argoneus: or is it specific to common lisp
2017-04-19T09:12:21Z White_Flame: I think Clojure might have good support under Eclipse, not sure
2017-04-19T09:12:33Z argoneus: alright, I'll give it a shot, thank you!
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2017-04-19T09:12:49Z White_Flame: in any case, it's a good thing to be able to hop between environments and do the idiomatic thing that the language expects, instead of trying to lock into 1 thing and doing everything through that
2017-04-19T09:13:21Z argoneus: "SLIME" is what I want, right
2017-04-19T09:13:25Z White_Flame: if you want to get started with Common Lisp, you should have Emacs, SLIME (which interfaces between Emacs and the running Lisp), and Quicklisp to download libraries
2017-04-19T09:13:33Z White_Flame: yep
2017-04-19T09:13:41Z argoneus: thanks!
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2017-04-19T09:19:52Z holycow: White_Flame: the thing about the thumb keyboards is this: no two people can agree on the optimal keyboard layout
2017-04-19T09:20:15Z holycow: once you shrink a keyboard down, you split usability down to a single usecase per person.
2017-04-19T09:20:30Z holycow: that is probably the real problem with thumb keyboards
2017-04-19T09:21:21Z White_Flame: that's an argument for screen keyboards, that they can be reconfigured
2017-04-19T09:21:32Z holycow: that is the thing i'm really looking forward to with the pyra.  theoretically, one ought to be able to get thumb keyboards built for their own needs ... although still stupidly expensive to do
2017-04-19T09:21:43Z holycow: White_Flame: i agree with that, absolutely
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2017-04-19T09:25:15Z holycow: joga: great read
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2017-04-19T09:29:28Z argoneus: hm
2017-04-19T09:29:51Z argoneus: when I write sbcl, it only prints that it's free software but there's no interactive console
2017-04-19T09:29:55Z argoneus: to actually install quicklisp
2017-04-19T09:30:39Z White_Flame: ideally, you'd be launching sbcl from inside emacs
2017-04-19T09:30:54Z White_Flame: but you're at an interactive prompt where you can run the quicklisp installation stuff anyway
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2017-04-19T09:31:08Z argoneus: thing is, it's not interactive
2017-04-19T09:31:09Z White_Flame: the "* " is the default prompt here.  Type (+ 1 1)
2017-04-19T09:31:12Z argoneus: no matter what I write, nothing happens
2017-04-19T09:31:14Z argoneus: there's no *
2017-04-19T09:31:22Z argoneus: just the license stuff
2017-04-19T09:31:35Z White_Flame: maybe you typed some weird control characters first?  kill it and try again
2017-04-19T09:31:42Z argoneus: been trying for 15 minutes
2017-04-19T09:31:49Z White_Flame: what platform are you on?
2017-04-19T09:31:54Z argoneus: ubuntu
2017-04-19T09:32:01Z argoneus: decided to use the ubuntu thing in win10
2017-04-19T09:32:02Z White_Flame: how did you install sbcl?
2017-04-19T09:32:06Z argoneus: apt-get install sbcl
2017-04-19T09:32:11Z White_Flame: ah, I have no idea how its linux-in-windows stuff works
2017-04-19T09:32:21Z White_Flame: get ye to emacs
2017-04-19T09:32:23Z argoneus: it's not emulation or such
2017-04-19T09:32:26Z argoneus: it's a proper ubuntu
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2017-04-19T09:32:39Z argoneus: can run a webserver on it if I decide to
2017-04-19T09:32:45Z argoneus: I'll try through emacs (never used emacs before)
2017-04-19T09:34:37Z White_Flame: emacs+SLIME in particular
2017-04-19T09:34:51Z argoneus: don't I need to install quicklisp first to get SLIME working?
2017-04-19T09:35:23Z White_Flame: I honestly don't know which is the best to install nowadays
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2017-04-19T09:35:29Z holycow: thanks for the inferno heads up earlier.  this is a great watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3d1SHOCCDn0
2017-04-19T09:35:32Z White_Flame: rem, which order to go
2017-04-19T09:36:05Z White_Flame: but it could be that if sbcl doesn't even start up properly, that it won't start under SLIME either
2017-04-19T09:36:30Z White_Flame: my suspicion is that the terminal IO is funky and causes it not to work; shelling to it directly from emacs might alleviate that
2017-04-19T09:37:36Z White_Flame: you can do sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp --eval '(quicklisp-quickstart:install)' and see if it will run scripted like that
2017-04-19T09:37:41Z White_Flame: for the bootstrap of quickly
2017-04-19T09:37:48Z White_Flame: *quicklisp
2017-04-19T09:40:27Z argoneus: that just prints the copyright info again
2017-04-19T09:40:27Z argoneus: hmm
2017-04-19T09:41:27Z holycow: argoneus: i cannot help you on this. i have no idea about windows 10, especially the ubuntu thing they have
2017-04-19T09:41:46Z argoneus: it's an actual regular ubuntu inside it
2017-04-19T09:41:56Z White_Flame: at least, that's the marketing spiel :-P
2017-04-19T09:42:11Z argoneus: I can run llvm and all I want on it easily
2017-04-19T09:42:11Z argoneus: :(
2017-04-19T09:42:22Z argoneus: llvm is normally a pain on windows
2017-04-19T09:42:25Z holycow: k.  so what is the problem then?
2017-04-19T09:42:31Z argoneus: the repl just, doesn't work
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2017-04-19T09:42:46Z White_Flame: I'd say rebuild sbcl from source locally and see if it's any different
2017-04-19T09:42:48Z argoneus: thing is, if I press ctrl+c in the REPL, I get a debug thingy
2017-04-19T09:42:53Z holycow: apt-get install sbcl emacs24-nox slime should give you everything
2017-04-19T09:43:03Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2017-04-19T09:43:36Z holycow: you want to use emacs nox and work out of a terminal instead of emacsx.  emacsx seems to frustrate users of normal graphical interfaces
2017-04-19T09:44:06Z holycow: once you have those 3 packages, run emacs then m-x slime and you will get a connection to sbcl
2017-04-19T09:44:10Z White_Flame: (graphical emacs should be more responsive. on a local box...)
2017-04-19T09:44:43Z holycow: then in emacs you can do c-x 1 or c-x 2 or c-x 3 to split up your shell window so you can code in emacs and see the slime at the same time
2017-04-19T09:44:53Z holycow: c-x 0 collapses all emacs windows
2017-04-19T09:44:58Z holycow: emacs frames i mean
2017-04-19T09:45:08Z holycow: that is your short 10 second intro to get it up and running argoneus
2017-04-19T09:46:28Z argoneus: the repl is just dead even inside emacs
2017-04-19T09:46:41Z White_Flame: rebuild sbcl from source
2017-04-19T09:46:44Z argoneus: unless I'm missing something
2017-04-19T09:46:54Z holycow: what do you mean dead?
2017-04-19T09:46:58Z holycow: post a screenshot online
2017-04-19T09:47:03Z argoneus: http://i.imgur.com/71cI5FJ.png
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2017-04-19T09:48:12Z holycow: aha
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2017-04-19T09:48:17Z holycow: its stuck at the compile part
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2017-04-19T09:49:02Z argoneus: try building from source, then..?
2017-04-19T09:49:14Z holycow: argoneus: my apologies i am not going to be of any use beyond this.  i would just run ubuntu in virtual box instead
2017-04-19T09:49:18Z holycow: i know that it works on there for sure
2017-04-19T09:49:28Z holycow: i bet ubuntu in windows 10 is not bone stock at all.
2017-04-19T09:50:00Z holycow: i would say it is quicker to download ubuntu iso and run it in a virtual box vm than building from scratch
2017-04-19T09:50:09Z argoneus: hmm
2017-04-19T09:50:18Z holycow: building from scratch means  you are still in a microsoft bastardized version of ubuntu
2017-04-19T09:50:20Z White_Flame: my laptop died, so I'm faced again with having to pay the microsoft tax on hardware before reinstalling linux over it.  I hate that fact.
2017-04-19T09:50:26Z holycow: there is no way microsoft did not fuck with that
2017-04-19T09:50:26Z White_Flame: but nobody should be using Win10
2017-04-19T09:50:33Z White_Flame: especially as a developer or power user
2017-04-19T09:51:01Z holycow: White_Flame: easy fix.  only buy used hardware.  someone else paid the tax and you get a know working unit, no new components to worry about :)
2017-04-19T09:51:26Z White_Flame: I need some oomph, though, so not looking at older models
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2017-04-19T09:51:30Z holycow: argoneus: yeah, i think you are trusting microsoft too much.  get a plain ubuntu image run it in a vm and ssh with putty into it.
2017-04-19T09:51:34Z holycow: it works fine, i've done it lots
2017-04-19T09:51:45Z argoneus: for some reason whenever I try to ctrl+c out of the prompt
2017-04-19T09:51:49Z argoneus: I get a debugger thing
2017-04-19T09:51:53Z argoneus: that seems to work and run commands
2017-04-19T09:51:56Z argoneus: hm
2017-04-19T09:52:16Z White_Flame: that's normal
2017-04-19T09:52:21Z White_Flame: use ^D if you want to exit
2017-04-19T09:52:46Z argoneus: "debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR in thread..."
2017-04-19T09:52:48Z argoneus: eh
2017-04-19T09:53:23Z White_Flame: the thing is, environments like CL are generating their own machine code on the fly, and run their own ABI internally
2017-04-19T09:53:34Z White_Flame: I could very easily see the lin-on-win stuff meddling in that heavily
2017-04-19T09:53:58Z White_Flame: especially when it comes to signals, terminal IO, memory management, etc
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2017-04-19T09:54:19Z argoneus: mm
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2017-04-19T09:55:16Z argoneus: ha ha ha
2017-04-19T09:55:22Z argoneus: I downloaded the sbcl binaries from the website
2017-04-19T09:55:24Z argoneus: and those work just fine
2017-04-19T09:55:29Z argoneus: I don't understand anything anymore
2017-04-19T09:55:57Z argoneus: seems like the ubuntu repo version is somehow borked
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2017-04-19T09:56:46Z argoneus: though I guess now I need to install quicklisp and slime manually
2017-04-19T09:57:39Z White_Flame: get quicklisp to install slime, via quicklis-slime-helper or somesuch, should be on the quicklisp page
2017-04-19T09:57:52Z White_Flame: from there, you can launch from emacs
2017-04-19T09:58:09Z White_Flame: (assuming that all the paths aren't confused from being inside windows)
2017-04-19T09:59:44Z holycow: argoneus: i just download ubuntu desktop 14.04, installed the vm, installed emacs23-nox sbcl and slime and got slime up and running
2017-04-19T10:00:05Z holycow: you are wasting your time with that microsoft nonsense.
2017-04-19T10:00:18Z argoneus: I think it's some bug in ubuntu itself
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2017-04-19T10:00:22Z argoneus: or rather the packages in the repositories
2017-04-19T10:00:24Z holycow: argoneus:
2017-04-19T10:00:35Z argoneus: I don't see a reason why a binary from apt should be different from the one I downloaded
2017-04-19T10:00:44Z holycow: i just download 14.04, installed it in virtual box and got emacs and sbcl running in less time than you complaining here
2017-04-19T10:00:49Z argoneus: ;;
2017-04-19T10:00:51Z holycow: please get a fucking clue and stop wasting your and our time
2017-04-19T10:00:58Z argoneus: b-but I just got it working
2017-04-19T10:01:05Z argoneus: just trying to understand why
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2017-04-19T10:03:14Z holycow: because one is probably compiled to be multithreaded and the other singlethreaded
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2017-04-19T10:05:36Z argoneus: http://i.imgur.com/PMr7izX.png this is correct, right
2017-04-19T10:05:57Z holycow: yup
2017-04-19T10:06:00Z argoneus: thank god
2017-04-19T10:06:02Z argoneus: thanks for the help!
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2017-04-19T10:10:03Z argoneus: now to just figure out how emacs works, heh
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2017-04-19T10:15:07Z argoneus: oh, emacs seems a lot more intuitive than vim
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2017-04-19T10:15:35Z holycow: welcome to the dark side
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2017-04-19T10:17:23Z holycow: thanks to all for the mention of k-machines
2017-04-19T10:17:29Z holycow: i've never heard of the project
2017-04-19T10:17:34Z holycow: here is a great articlet on it: http://fare.tunes.org/tmp/emergent/kmachine.htm
2017-04-19T10:18:08Z holycow: apparently the author managed to get a hold of the k-machine hardware after the ownership collapsed into bankruptsy
2017-04-19T10:20:19Z shka: sooo
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2017-04-19T10:21:03Z shka: i kinda want to figure out how to develop kernel image that can be loaded directly with KVM
2017-04-19T10:27:44Z p_l: holycow: the author is one of the designers of K-machine
2017-04-19T10:28:00Z flip214: shka: your best bet might be "-kernel bzImage", else you'll need a bootloader too
2017-04-19T10:28:14Z shka: yes
2017-04-19T10:28:21Z p_l: so long as early bootstrap is compatible with bzimage format it will work
2017-04-19T10:28:22Z shka: i am knew at that
2017-04-19T10:28:27Z shka: *new
2017-04-19T10:28:43Z shka: never even considered doing something like that before
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2017-04-19T10:28:56Z p_l: you might need to write some assembly that gives you the bootstrap necessary to start whatever lisp image you need
2017-04-19T10:29:10Z holycow: p_l: neat!
2017-04-19T10:29:25Z shka: oh, god, please just no x86 assembly
2017-04-19T10:29:32Z shka: -_-'
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2017-04-19T10:30:05Z shka: anyway, i need to first figure out how to write the simplest kernel
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2017-04-19T10:30:43Z shka: but anyway, this can be really usefull tool
2017-04-19T10:31:34Z shka: if only just for ultra light sandbox deployment
2017-04-19T10:31:56Z argoneus: aaa this buffer thing in emacs is great
2017-04-19T10:32:06Z argoneus: thanks so much for helping me earlier
2017-04-19T10:32:24Z p_l: shka: generate the assembly from Lisp
2017-04-19T10:32:39Z p_l: or you might find out that loading raw kernels in KVM is maybe not the best idea ;)
2017-04-19T10:33:02Z shka: can you be more informative?
2017-04-19T10:33:20Z shka: i have no idea what i am doing right now so any hints are welcome
2017-04-19T10:33:32Z p_l: loading bare kernel you lack all kinds of services that might be provided by the environment you start in
2017-04-19T10:33:54Z shka: yes
2017-04-19T10:34:02Z shka: that's obvious
2017-04-19T10:34:07Z flip214: shka: TBH, I'd go for a (docker-like) jail (using chroot and namespace support, virtual networking, etc.) and an lisp running therein as sandbox...
2017-04-19T10:34:31Z flip214: else you'll need to reimplement device drivers, filesystems, memory allocation (no mmap for you!), etc.
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2017-04-19T10:34:42Z p_l: with let's say UEFI system you instead get a boot environment programmable in high level language (pretty much any language can be used) which can limit the need to interface with assembly even less
2017-04-19T10:34:51Z flip214: but if you really want to go that route, there's Mezzano
2017-04-19T10:34:52Z shka: can't i just use host stuff?
2017-04-19T10:35:00Z flip214: which host?
2017-04-19T10:35:02Z shka: iirc that's the point of KVM
2017-04-19T10:35:05Z flip214: the kernel has no host.
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2017-04-19T10:35:08Z p_l: shka: you still need drivers
2017-04-19T10:35:15Z shka: i don't want to write bare metal kernel
2017-04-19T10:35:17Z flip214: yeah, you can write drivers for the virtual hardware...
2017-04-19T10:35:35Z shka: just something that sits on top of KVM
2017-04-19T10:35:42Z p_l: KVM emulates a bare metal environment with possibly some esoteric virtual hardware (like virtio-pci devices)
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2017-04-19T10:36:27Z p_l: it would be much easier to make a driver for virtio 9fs than a full block device stack + filesystem, though
2017-04-19T10:36:42Z shka: i see
2017-04-19T10:37:10Z shka: can we talk about that later?
2017-04-19T10:37:23Z shka: i think we are getting somewhere
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2017-04-19T10:40:35Z holycow: p_l: did you just suggest that shka write a driver for 9fs over virtio?
2017-04-19T10:40:52Z p_l: simpler than many other options
2017-04-19T10:41:00Z holycow: if i'm getting what you are suggesting that is a diabolically genious suggestion
2017-04-19T10:41:01Z holycow: jesus
2017-04-19T10:41:25Z shka: *buahahahaha*
2017-04-19T10:41:34Z holycow: no seriously, i never thought of that, that is amazing
2017-04-19T10:41:57Z p_l: virtio bus is simplified, and for 9fs you only need essentially a simple message passing buffers
2017-04-19T10:41:58Z shka: anyway, this is really exciting but i have bug at office and boss is not amused ;-)
2017-04-19T10:42:01Z shka: back to work
2017-04-19T10:42:16Z holycow: p_l: i emailed joe marshall, i'm curious to learn more about that project.  that is so fascinating.  thank you for the tip.
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2017-04-19T10:43:23Z holycow: this channel blows my mind.  unfortunately it is always on bloody european time.  i'm not supposed to be awake right now.
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2017-04-19T10:48:40Z p_l: heh, I opened the old CONS memo and found similar arguments for "simple unspecialized architecture" as I made :D
2017-04-19T10:49:52Z p_l: "Using a very unspecialized processor was found to be a Good idea for several reasons."
2017-04-19T10:50:01Z holycow: heh
2017-04-19T10:50:02Z p_l: ym: ^
2017-04-19T10:50:16Z holycow: broke your mojo there, sorry
2017-04-19T10:50:27Z p_l: AI MEMO 448, LispM group report from MIT
2017-04-19T10:50:33Z holycow: just reading joe marshalls blog. very very smart dude.
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2017-04-19T10:54:24Z holycow: p_l: it totally makes sense.  we are always slaves to the resources available in our curent time.
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2017-04-19T10:54:51Z holycow: in the 70's and 80's specialized cpus seemed like the way forward as generalized processing was not established as it is today
2017-04-19T10:55:04Z p_l: you'd be surprised
2017-04-19T10:55:14Z holycow: tell me more
2017-04-19T10:55:33Z p_l: it's more that there was a *lot* of ISAs, and a lot of assembly-level programming (and less proliferation or standardization between them)
2017-04-19T10:56:06Z holycow: oh, so nothing has changed then
2017-04-19T10:56:07Z holycow: heh
2017-04-19T10:56:11Z p_l: also, I guess some of it was just like the use of extra dedicated languages, something often frowned about today but which was common then
2017-04-19T10:56:37Z p_l: so using a bunch of the same chip in different parts of the system running specialized software was not that uncommon
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2017-04-19T10:56:57Z p_l: I think some of the IBM peripheral processors were essentially the previous generation mainframes running dedicated software
2017-04-19T10:57:37Z p_l: today, each IBM z "processor book" has one more CPU which runs special microcode instead of normal software and essentially implements some of the "hardware" that everything else uses
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2017-04-19T10:59:24Z p_l: when main cpus weren't powerful enough, a lot was done through dedicated hw, then main cpus got faster, then some dedicated hw leapfrogged them, and so on and so on
2017-04-19T10:59:32Z holycow: right right
2017-04-19T10:59:56Z p_l: Take for example audio - today, most people have audio hw that is less powerful in terms of computation than what I had in my first PC
2017-04-19T11:00:14Z holycow: yeah its all in the driver now
2017-04-19T11:00:16Z shka: yes
2017-04-19T11:00:27Z shka: almost no hardware mixing
2017-04-19T11:01:00Z p_l: holycow: because in the past, having a 16 channel hw mixer was necessary to actually have 16 sounds mixed together - or for example to have music through MIDI
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2017-04-19T11:01:29Z shka: p_l: what is 9fs?
2017-04-19T11:01:35Z shka: and what is virtio?
2017-04-19T11:01:41Z holycow: p_l: i watch the 8bit guy on youtube.  he actually explaine that (but for like 8 channels i think) on some popular chip in 80's consumer hardware
2017-04-19T11:01:42Z p_l: and the systems that didn't have dedicated processing hw but had present-day style audio, tended to have it single-user only
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2017-04-19T11:02:36Z p_l: shka: virtio is a set of buses and devices, implemented among other things in KVM (by linux kernel) or QEMU (for emulated devices) and others. They are simplified because they don't have all the trappings of physical device
2017-04-19T11:02:47Z p_l: so you have much easier time writing drivers
2017-04-19T11:02:58Z shka: i see
2017-04-19T11:03:04Z shka: what about 9fs?
2017-04-19T11:03:08Z p_l: 9fs, or rather 9P, is the Plan9/Inferno filesystem, based on messaging
2017-04-19T11:03:17Z shka: i see
2017-04-19T11:03:22Z p_l: well, RPC, sort of
2017-04-19T11:03:24Z holycow: read about plan9 and watch youtube videos
2017-04-19T11:03:26Z holycow: it will blow your mind
2017-04-19T11:03:32Z shka: CSP style?
2017-04-19T11:03:45Z p_l: it's a network filesystem
2017-04-19T11:04:01Z p_l: but it's messages map 1:1 to Plan9 i/o syscalls
2017-04-19T11:04:16Z shka: ok, that's enough for now
2017-04-19T11:04:27Z p_l: anyway, there exists a specification for transporting a 9P connection over virtual PCI device
2017-04-19T11:04:38Z holycow: the other crazy thing you might want to consider is looking at porting sbcl to plan9 / inferno
2017-04-19T11:04:58Z p_l: and QEMU provides a way to export a directory as filesystem accessible over that virtual PCI device
2017-04-19T11:05:00Z holycow: and host that in a kvm vm
2017-04-19T11:05:16Z p_l: so instead of writing a FS, block drivers, etc, you can use files directly :)
2017-04-19T11:05:36Z shka: that's what i want
2017-04-19T11:05:48Z shka: if it is networked, it is even better
2017-04-19T11:08:18Z shka: holycow: actually i am under impression that in ideal world i would get plan9, smalltalk enviorment, make it one and lisp and be blown away by the awesomness
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2017-04-19T11:09:03Z holycow: shka: if we are allowed to imagine such things without people telling us why it is a bad idea, it sure is sounding intersting.
2017-04-19T11:09:04Z p_l: technically you could export Plan9's network API over 9P to provide quick'n'dirty network support till you write a network stack in lisp
2017-04-19T11:09:22Z p_l: (an old trick for Plan9)
2017-04-19T11:09:27Z holycow: plan9 theoretically doesn't care about the underlying hardware, its purely a namespace + utilities
2017-04-19T11:09:55Z holycow: if you can let linux care about hardware ... hmmm.  i have never thought about this before
2017-04-19T11:10:03Z shka: neither did i
2017-04-19T11:10:37Z holycow: p_l: what have you started
2017-04-19T11:10:40Z wheelsucker quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-04-19T11:10:52Z holycow: i mean, LOOK at what you have started
2017-04-19T11:10:53Z holycow: heh
2017-04-19T11:10:57Z p_l: holycow: If I wanted Linux to take care of hardware completely, I'd go even weirder way ;)
2017-04-19T11:11:10Z holycow: okay, blow us away once more
2017-04-19T11:11:14Z holycow: i've got the popcorn
2017-04-19T11:11:29Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pitwR8jPd_M
2017-04-19T11:11:30Z holycow: and a lisp programming video explaining object oriented features
2017-04-19T11:11:30Z holycow: heh
2017-04-19T11:11:33Z mingus quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-04-19T11:11:34Z phoe: where the hell am I
2017-04-19T11:11:37Z phoe: I just logged back on
2017-04-19T11:11:57Z holycow: phoe: i have no clue my self.  this channel is amazing.
2017-04-19T11:11:58Z shka: phoe: hey, we are just building lisp os on top of linux thanks to plan9
2017-04-19T11:11:59Z phoe: and landed in #plan9 or #alternative-os
2017-04-19T11:12:10Z shka: full hipster mode engaged
2017-04-19T11:12:35Z p_l: L4/Linux, with some kind of LispOs working as one process, and linux kernel running as another process, with servers providing use of the linux drivers to Lisp process over L4 IPC calls - which means that as your system matures, it can bring over more and more code inside
2017-04-19T11:12:47Z holycow: huh
2017-04-19T11:12:50Z holycow: wow
2017-04-19T11:12:58Z p_l: including possibly implementing the L4 API in lisp at one point and replacing the previous L4 implementation with your Lisp-based one
2017-04-19T11:13:02Z holycow: p_l: well then, how about we mate that with my pc architecture idea:
2017-04-19T11:13:34Z holycow: * the motherboard is just a set of pice16 slots (or something like that).  first slot contains a card with the bios, north bridge, southbridge
2017-04-19T11:13:52Z holycow: all the other cards are either full of arm chips, sound cards or whatever
2017-04-19T11:13:59Z holycow: and throw your idea on that and holy crap.
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2017-04-19T11:14:36Z p_l: holycow: wouldn't work, as PCI-E is not a backplane parallel bus
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2017-04-19T11:14:47Z holycow: okay, i knew there was a problem
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2017-04-19T11:14:56Z holycow: your approach is much more elegant though, i like it.
2017-04-19T11:15:00Z p_l: holycow: what you described is however how one would build a computer back in time of ISA, UNIBUS, VME etc.
2017-04-19T11:15:13Z p_l: with passive backplanes
2017-04-19T11:15:31Z holycow: but, of course it was already done.  why would anyone actually think this wasn't done 40 years ago.
2017-04-19T11:15:38Z holycow: heh
2017-04-19T11:15:48Z p_l: I think there was even a frankenstein monster of two TI Explorer machines stuck in one card cage
2017-04-19T11:15:59Z holycow: huh
2017-04-19T11:16:34Z p_l: holycow: by carefully specifying who had access to what addresses on the bus, they could share one card cage and even communicate over shared memory
2017-04-19T11:16:42Z holycow: huh
2017-04-19T11:17:31Z p_l: (DEC did similar thing in software with their partitioning support in Alpha, which could run multiple VMS and Digital Unix systems simultaneously by simply not telling them of hardware that was allocated to others)
2017-04-19T11:17:33Z holycow: i have been looking at our servers for years now and thinking that instead of inserting hard drive trays into the backplanes, could that be generalized so that you can input cards for various functionality.
2017-04-19T11:17:44Z holycow: obviously, no one needs this otherwise it would exist.
2017-04-19T11:17:54Z p_l: this of course works only if the software is well behaved
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2017-04-19T11:18:15Z p_l: holycow: passive backplane systems are lousy in terms of performance, which is why we no longer use them even for disks
2017-04-19T11:18:26Z holycow: but then, you could have backplanes on either side of the case.  one the back you insert backplanes for whatever connector type you need (hide the cables) on the front you can have cards that add am/fm radio and whatever.
2017-04-19T11:18:33Z p_l: (instead using point-to-point links, even if located on a "backplane")
2017-04-19T11:18:33Z holycow: aha.
2017-04-19T11:18:59Z holycow: *nod* of course this was all done before.  it is so frickin weird.
2017-04-19T11:19:00Z p_l: SATA, SAS, PCI-E are all network buses (SATA sucks, though)
2017-04-19T11:19:06Z holycow: IT even
2017-04-19T11:19:23Z p_l: SAS, PCI-E (and DisplayPort, too) are all based on network passing messages, with routers etc.
2017-04-19T11:19:29Z holycow: oh!
2017-04-19T11:19:42Z holycow: no kidding? i had no idea.
2017-04-19T11:20:05Z p_l: holycow: at low enough level, all three of them sent around small packets of data with addresses ;)
2017-04-19T11:20:33Z p_l: (PCI-E and DisplayPort even share the same physical layer stuff, differing only in higher level protocols)
2017-04-19T11:20:40Z holycow: it makes sense the way you type it, i had no idea the packets had an address space. i thought it was all direct.
2017-04-19T11:20:55Z holycow: but if you think about it, of course it can't be direct.  there is too much going on.
2017-04-19T11:21:22Z p_l: depends on how you build it, but without addresses, you can't have switches, so you'd be limited by amount of links a single chip can have
2017-04-19T11:21:35Z holycow: right.  that makes sense.
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2017-04-19T11:23:39Z p_l: holycow: most modern CPUs are also networked between themselves to support multi-cpu, instead of using common shared bus
2017-04-19T11:23:48Z holycow: that makes sense
2017-04-19T11:24:08Z holycow: a couple of years ago, a programmer blew my mind when he explain that x86 is no longer x86 underneath either
2017-04-19T11:24:11Z p_l: holycow: on PCs, this stuff arrived with AMD K8, then showed up with Nehalem for intel
2017-04-19T11:24:25Z holycow: x86 is just the api to a different architecture underneath
2017-04-19T11:25:04Z p_l: holycow: well, depends on how you describe it, but in general all x86 cpus (I think ever) were microprogrammed even if it was 1:1 from x86 instructions to internal component states
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2017-04-19T11:26:01Z p_l: holycow: most of the "big" CPUs in the older times were microprogrammed, some quite extensively
2017-04-19T11:26:13Z fiveop: `sbcl --non-interactive --eval "(dotimes (i 2) (print i))" | head -n 1` results in a broken pipe error in sbcl. That makes sense to me. How would I go about getting a common lisp (or probably any) application to handle that gracefully?
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2017-04-19T11:28:16Z fiveop: Having asked the question, I get an idea. A HANDLER-CASE for STREAM-ERROR might be a good starting point.
2017-04-19T11:28:25Z p_l: holycow: that was often because they were made from much different components - for example, KS10 cpu (on which a lot of lisping was done) was made from 4-bit chips from AMD (for 36bit system)
2017-04-19T11:28:52Z holycow: thats so weird
2017-04-19T11:29:07Z holycow: maybe not trully weird, it just sounds odd today
2017-04-19T11:29:27Z flip214: well, every ALU starts with half-adders....
2017-04-19T11:31:27Z p_l: holycow: you could chain ALUs to provide longer word, and you'd have a control store and some circuitry that would take an instruction from main memory, locate its definition in microcode memory, and execute said microcode (often by simply pushing the microcode memory outputs onto "operation" inputs of the ALUs etc.
2017-04-19T11:31:52Z holycow: yeah, i just realized how stupid my statement is
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2017-04-19T11:35:51Z holycow: okay so, we have p_l's super weird os.  step #2, get $100 mil and fund the development
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2017-04-19T11:36:16Z holycow: bill gates is wasting his time trying to save billions of people from tuberculosis.  he should be funding this.
2017-04-19T11:36:19Z holycow: heh!
2017-04-19T11:36:41Z holycow: p_l: thank you for the great tutorial.  i owe you a beer or two.
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2017-04-19T11:43:49Z holycow: and figured out how to save this conversation.  thanks all.
2017-04-19T11:48:24Z shka: beach: do you have any video explaining step by step what is SICL?
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2017-04-19T12:03:12Z beach: shka: Sorry, I don't.
2017-04-19T12:03:24Z beach: shka: But I'll be happy to explain it to you here if you want.
2017-04-19T12:03:42Z shka: i think i will just read docs back at home
2017-04-19T12:03:47Z phoe: beach: Need any help making one?
2017-04-19T12:04:03Z shka: but thanks for offer :-)
2017-04-19T12:04:10Z beach: phoe: I think the demand is very limited at the moment.  But thanks for the help.
2017-04-19T12:04:13Z phoe: Since I think that SICL is advanced enough for such a video/presentation to be created.
2017-04-19T12:04:18Z phoe: Okay.
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2017-04-19T12:04:42Z phoe: So, since shka passed on the offer, I'll gladly accept the explanation from you, beach :)
2017-04-19T12:05:02Z shka: beach: we had discussion about smalltalk style version control software in lisp, and SICL just poped up
2017-04-19T12:05:08Z shka: because of envs
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2017-04-19T12:05:19Z p_l: and first class environments
2017-04-19T12:05:26Z shka: yeah
2017-04-19T12:05:35Z beach: phoe: Here and now?
2017-04-19T12:05:36Z shka: at #lisp-pl that is
2017-04-19T12:05:48Z shka: (join us, we have cookies)
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2017-04-19T12:07:09Z presiden: (sponsored comment)
2017-04-19T12:07:44Z shka: sadly not
2017-04-19T12:08:01Z shka: i am not getting any money from promoting lisp
2017-04-19T12:08:07Z Josh_2: Did someone say cookies?
2017-04-19T12:08:18Z phoe: beach: here and now, hm.
2017-04-19T12:08:21Z phoe: Depends.
2017-04-19T12:08:28Z phoe: Would you do it through IRC?
2017-04-19T12:08:36Z beach: I could try.
2017-04-19T12:08:43Z beach: But we might bore people to tears.
2017-04-19T12:08:45Z phoe: Or would we need to get some kind of audio (and video?) chat?
2017-04-19T12:08:58Z phoe: beach: haha, well, we might do it in query in this case.
2017-04-19T12:09:10Z beach: What kind of query?
2017-04-19T12:09:17Z phoe:  /query beach
2017-04-19T12:12:34Z beach: phoe: Basically, I think of SICL as a collection of modules, implementing various parts of the Common Lisp standard.  The difference between those modules and existing modules in other implementations has to do with modern programming practice, test, documentation, and especially implementation-independence.
2017-04-19T12:13:44Z beach: phoe: Now, some people have interpreted this collection of "modules" to mean that they can write a primitive Common Lisp in (say) C, and then start loading SICL modules to obtain a complete implementation.  That is not the case.
2017-04-19T12:13:51Z holycow: are there any changes to the spec at all? or is it just a re-organization with addong tools?
2017-04-19T12:14:00Z holycow: addon even
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2017-04-19T12:14:37Z beach: phoe: The `modern programming practice' part involves using the full Second Climacs language, and especially more generic functions that most equivalent existing modules do.
2017-04-19T12:14:44Z beach: holycow: For me?
2017-04-19T12:14:57Z beach: holycow: No changes to the spec, no.
2017-04-19T12:15:06Z holycow: yes sir.  may apologies for interrupting, i did not realize you are in a stream of thought
2017-04-19T12:15:14Z beach: No, it's fine.
2017-04-19T12:15:20Z beach: Interrupt as much as you like.
2017-04-19T12:15:33Z phoe: holycow: it's IRC, we interrupt each other all the time and most of us don't really care and just keep typing
2017-04-19T12:15:48Z beach: phoe: A large part of SICL is Cleavir, an implementation-independent framework for writing Common Lisp compilers.
2017-04-19T12:16:02Z phoe: beach: what do you mean by the "full Second Climacs language"?
2017-04-19T12:16:09Z beach: OOPS
2017-04-19T12:16:18Z beach: the full Common Lisp language
2017-04-19T12:16:22Z beach: my abbrevs. :)
2017-04-19T12:16:52Z p_l: beach: one kinda needs full CL first to load the stuff and probably use Cleavir to write a code-generating compiler, right?
2017-04-19T12:16:53Z phoe: Got it. So, standard Common Lisp with a lot of pressure on generic functions, correct?
2017-04-19T12:17:00Z beach: phoe: Yes.
2017-04-19T12:17:23Z holycow: someone please log this, then update the wiki for the git repo for SICL pls
2017-04-19T12:17:25Z beach: phoe: I don't think it has ever been attempted before to write an implementation-independent compiler for Common Lisp.
2017-04-19T12:17:35Z phoe: holycow: #lisp is automatically logged.
2017-04-19T12:17:46Z holycow: oh! perfect.
2017-04-19T12:18:04Z phoe: holycow: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/
2017-04-19T12:18:15Z beach: p_l: Yes, I am working on the bootstrapping part.  I am using SBCL for that.
2017-04-19T12:18:50Z beach: So, one example that appears to baffle people is that SICL LOOP uses LOOP for its implementation.
2017-04-19T12:19:34Z beach: But there is no contradiction here, because the LOOP macroexpander runs at, well, macroexpansion time, which will happen in the host Common Lisp system during bootstrapping.
2017-04-19T12:19:46Z beach: After that, there is no trace of the LOOP macro.
2017-04-19T12:21:01Z p_l: beach: I proposed, in discussion with shka and phoe, that SICL could be used as base to implement extensions to existing CL implementations, maybe providing impetus for CDR process by making it easier to implement proposals
2017-04-19T12:21:03Z phoe: beach: haha, I asked that question to you at ELS16. I'm still amazed by the explanation I got from you back then.
2017-04-19T12:21:07Z beach: One of the first modules I started was the "sequence functions" module.  It has taken me three attempts to finally have an acceptable strategy for how to do it.  And I haven't even finished implementing the module according to that strategy (which is in the ELS paper this year).
2017-04-19T12:21:40Z beach: p_l: That sounds possible, yes.
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2017-04-19T12:22:12Z p_l: huh, I see much more CDRs published than I have seen last time
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2017-04-19T12:22:39Z beach: My secret hope is that the SICL modules will be better than the native ones in many respects, so that implementations would prefer the SICL ones.  The net result would be that we can cut down on total maintenance of all Common Lisp implementations.
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2017-04-19T12:23:02Z beach: p_l: "many".  Many things, much stuff.
2017-04-19T12:23:09Z holycow: what an interesting idea
2017-04-19T12:23:16Z p_l: heh, right
2017-04-19T12:24:11Z p_l: beach: I wonder how amenable to community extensions the commercial lisps would be. While some consider it "not a problem", I would prefer to not have a split between commercial lisps with their proprietary libraries and open source world
2017-04-19T12:24:12Z beach: p_l: I think that's the essence of the idea.  The only remaining part is that, once I have all the modules (I pretty much do), there would be no reason to refrain from creating a complete Common Lisp implementation out of them.
2017-04-19T12:24:35Z beach: Er, make that phoe.
2017-04-19T12:24:52Z p_l: beach: arguably it could be even a hosted implementation, kinda like "future-common-lisp" on Symbolics etc.
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2017-04-19T12:25:44Z beach: p_l: I haven't really given any thought to extensions.  I have given some thought to an updated standard, but it would only fix obvious bugs and especially define many things where the current standard leaves them undefined.
2017-04-19T12:26:51Z beach: phoe: Does that give you the information you wanted?
2017-04-19T12:27:23Z p_l: I was thinking mostly of extensions that would "open up" hackability of the implementation - like user-extensible hashtables from CDR#2, extensible sequences, etc.
2017-04-19T12:27:38Z beach: Yes, I understand.
2017-04-19T12:27:53Z phoe: beach: yes, that's a good explanation.
2017-04-19T12:28:38Z beach: p_l: One thing might interest you then.  I think in SICL, because I have faster generic dispatch, fewer things would be made out of ordinary functions and built-in classes, and more things out of generic functions and standard classes.
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2017-04-19T12:29:25Z beach: p_l: That way, it would be easier to create subclasses, or entirely different classes participating in the same protocol.
2017-04-19T12:30:15Z p_l: I was thinking of something like that for other implementations, possibly with some extra-fast-path for normal calls and extension mechanism for others
2017-04-19T12:30:47Z beach: That might be necessary in implementation that insist on keeping the slow, native, generic dispatch. :)
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2017-04-19T12:33:57Z shka: beach: so basicly, i need full lisp implementation (let it be ecl since it seems to be very portable) to bootstrap actual implementation, right?
2017-04-19T12:34:42Z loke___: shka: Which actual implementation do you want to ootstrap? SBCL?
2017-04-19T12:34:55Z beach: shka: Yes.  Though right now, the bootstrapping is not complete, so there is no point in trying.
2017-04-19T12:35:07Z shka: some kind of SICL based implementation ofc
2017-04-19T12:35:17Z loke___: I've always turned to ABCL when boostrapping SBCL.
2017-04-19T12:35:18Z beach: loke___: You came in late.  We are talking about SICL.
2017-04-19T12:35:27Z loke___: Oh. sorry.
2017-04-19T12:36:00Z shka: so SICL will implements language syntax, semantics and even most of the compiler
2017-04-19T12:36:12Z shka: as modules
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2017-04-19T12:36:55Z shka: ok
2017-04-19T12:36:55Z beach: shka: That's the plan.  The compiler is a big, customizable module though.  The word "framework" is more appropriate.  And it exists.  Clasp is using it for its good compiler.
2017-04-19T12:37:08Z shka: right
2017-04-19T12:37:10Z shka: great
2017-04-19T12:37:28Z shka: now i understand what you are trying to do
2017-04-19T12:37:41Z shka: that is very good plan
2017-04-19T12:37:45Z beach: Thanks!
2017-04-19T12:38:23Z shka: and even more
2017-04-19T12:39:12Z shka: once this will be adopted (and it should get adopted) we will be able to actually extend language by providing additional modules
2017-04-19T12:39:12Z beach: Cleavir, the compiler framework, is particularly interesting I think.  It uses CLOS to allow implementations to customize it for their needs.  And I plan to implement a bunch of standard compiler-optimization techniques on intermediate code, plus some of my own.
2017-04-19T12:39:16Z phoe: loke___: the logs are available, you can read up
2017-04-19T12:39:29Z shka: and implementations will be free to either include those or not
2017-04-19T12:40:03Z beach: shka: That should be possible, yes.
2017-04-19T12:40:10Z holycow: this is so meta
2017-04-19T12:40:32Z shka: well, we need some central point
2017-04-19T12:40:46Z phoe: beach: holycow: http://cliki.net/SICL
2017-04-19T12:40:52Z shka: we got one, it is called quicklisp and it had awesome effect on lisp popularity
2017-04-19T12:41:14Z phoe: shka: we will have CLUS that I expect to be another central point when it comes to docs.
2017-04-19T12:41:32Z shka: yeah, this is also needed
2017-04-19T12:41:34Z phoe: beach: I allowed myself to become an editor and edit the IRC logs into a description of SICL.
2017-04-19T12:41:54Z beach: phoe: That would be fine with me.
2017-04-19T12:42:11Z phoe: beach: Good - then the CLiki SICL page is up and running.
2017-04-19T12:42:21Z shka: and once we will have SICL running everywhere we will be in very healthy place
2017-04-19T12:42:44Z holycow: phoe: read great.  thx!
2017-04-19T12:42:50Z shka: this is quite exciting
2017-04-19T12:42:57Z phoe: the implementation that can bootstrap itself off everything.
2017-04-19T12:42:57Z shka: :-)
2017-04-19T12:43:00Z beach: Now, I don't have any great hopes that existing implementation will actually ditch a single line of code in favor of the SICL equivalent.  But then, a lot of what I have done so far has been publishable (because it is original work) and I intend to continue with new such things.  So either way, I can justify my salary.
2017-04-19T12:43:21Z phoe: "No matter what lisp you're running, you can be running SICL."
2017-04-19T12:44:13Z shka: beach: well, it is reasonable thing to do
2017-04-19T12:44:16Z shka: imho
2017-04-19T12:44:30Z shka: for instance ecl is running thanks to jackdaniel
2017-04-19T12:44:47Z phoe: beach: but I can see a possibility where implementations can simply make a tiny abstraction layer over their own modules, so they're "pluggable" and allow the user to choose e.g. what implementation of LOOP or the Lisp reader to use.
2017-04-19T12:44:51Z shka: but he is just a single person, with other stuff to do
2017-04-19T12:45:16Z beach: phoe: Maybe so.
2017-04-19T12:46:06Z shka: if he could have less code to maintain, he may very well use SICL
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2017-04-19T12:46:51Z beach: Yes, jackdaniel has some plans to write a Cleavir-based compiler for ECL.
2017-04-19T12:46:58Z holycow: oh, clus is common lisp ultra spec.  neat!
2017-04-19T12:47:45Z shka: phoe: btw, did you already have full standard in there?
2017-04-19T12:47:49Z shka: *do you
2017-04-19T12:47:53Z beach: Oh, another SICL invention is that of first-class global environments.  I firmly believe that they are a requirement for a safe Common Lisp environment, and I believe such an environment is a requirement for a LispOS.  But the recent discussion I read seems to go a completely different direction.
2017-04-19T12:48:33Z phoe: shka: not yet.
2017-04-19T12:48:42Z shka: right
2017-04-19T12:49:33Z beach: When I hear the word "kernel" I space out, because (at least the way the word is typically used) I think the concept of a kernel is (or should be) a historical parenthesis.
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2017-04-19T12:50:23Z presiden: isn't kernel a mathematical term
2017-04-19T12:50:48Z beach: Right, and "lisp" is a speech defect.
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2017-04-19T12:53:41Z beach: For my opinion on "kernels" see section 1.2.5 (PDF page 10, document page 6) of this document: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2017-04-19T12:55:03Z holycow: holy crap.  what?  a lisp os spec?
2017-04-19T12:55:22Z holycow: beach: amazing.
2017-04-19T12:55:33Z beach: holycow: Where have you been?  It's been around for a long time.
2017-04-19T12:55:36Z phoe: holycow: beach is a very productive Lisper.
2017-04-19T12:55:42Z holycow: clear with my head stuck up my arse
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2017-04-19T12:57:29Z shka: beach: we were discusing lispos on top of KVM today
2017-04-19T12:57:43Z beach: I kind of read it, yes.
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2017-04-19T13:08:34Z beach: holycow: so when you wrote: "it would make more sense to generalize the [lisp] os out into userland and then write native interfaces into whatever kernel you want to target ...", I didn't quite understand what you meant.
2017-04-19T13:09:14Z holycow: beach: i'm reading page 10 right now to understand your perspective on kernels
2017-04-19T13:09:25Z holycow: i know that kernels do a lot more than 'just manage access to hardware'
2017-04-19T13:10:12Z holycow: what i meant by that statement is that the most challengin part for any os is accessing hardware.
2017-04-19T13:11:22Z holycow: why not let the linux kernel handle interacting with the hardware and let the lisp os handle the userland and beyond.
2017-04-19T13:11:57Z beach: Sure.
2017-04-19T13:11:58Z holycow: the naiive assumption being that you can either do this via cffi interfaces or perhaps by writing a kernel 'driver' that lisp can talk directly to
2017-04-19T13:12:01Z holycow: however
2017-04-19T13:12:11Z holycow: as i'm reading your kernel specs and history of why things are the way they are
2017-04-19T13:12:25Z holycow: there are downsides as the linux kernel is a very special beast.  as would ever kernel be.
2017-04-19T13:12:36Z p_l: beach: what kind of technique did you use to speed up generic dispatch?
2017-04-19T13:13:11Z holycow: ever = every
2017-04-19T13:13:23Z p_l: well, kernel is technically a quite modern way of defining the OS, partially because of certain common characteristics which led to certain.... layout of code
2017-04-19T13:13:23Z phoe: p_l: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2017-04-19T13:13:34Z p_l: phoe: thx
2017-04-19T13:13:38Z beach: p_l: Basically, avoid hashing and memory accesses.  Number the classes, and compare small integers, some of which are constants: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf
2017-04-19T13:14:28Z p_l: mhm
2017-04-19T13:14:37Z beach: holycow: I can very well imagine using the Linux kernel to access the machine, which is why I think "bare metal" is a low priority.  But I also don't want to use the abstractions proposed by the Linux kernel (everything is a byte stream, etc).
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2017-04-19T13:15:24Z p_l: beach: (un)fortunately "everything is a byte stream" is not that much common as one would think on linux...
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2017-04-19T13:15:56Z p_l: that said, doing it using L4 as core and having "hw servers" on linux might be much easier
2017-04-19T13:15:59Z p_l: (and more lispier)
2017-04-19T13:16:35Z beach: I also don't want a "file system" of course.
2017-04-19T13:16:44Z shka: L4 is running on top KVM?
2017-04-19T13:16:54Z shka: p_l: how that is supposed to work?
2017-04-19T13:17:12Z p_l: shka: no, Linux running as userland process on L4
2017-04-19T13:17:26Z shka: …i have no idea
2017-04-19T13:17:31Z holycow: l4 is a microkernel
2017-04-19T13:17:46Z holycow: or ... microkernel family?  i don't know enough abou tit
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2017-04-19T13:17:58Z shka: and what linux is for in here?
2017-04-19T13:18:00Z p_l: shka: there exists L4/Linux, which is Linux running on top of L4-family microkernel as userland process
2017-04-19T13:18:09Z shka: but… why?
2017-04-19T13:19:16Z shka: p_l: so L4 delegates hardware handling to linux?
2017-04-19T13:19:21Z p_l: shka: usually it's done so that the Linux provides hw drivers but can be pre-empted by another process on same-level in hierarchy
2017-04-19T13:19:21Z holycow: probably because microkernels have a security model built into them ... they are a bunch of servers talking to each other from what i understand
2017-04-19T13:20:07Z holycow: and be isolated securely as well so if the driver krashes the microkernel does not.  not sure how it applies to linux tho
2017-04-19T13:20:36Z p_l: the linux kernel in systems based on L4/Linux runs at lower priority compared to "main" application
2017-04-19T13:20:58Z phoe: it's no longer the core kernel, yo
2017-04-19T13:21:31Z phoe: so basically L4 is a hypervisor
2017-04-19T13:21:49Z holycow: ah, best desprition yet. right
2017-04-19T13:21:54Z phoe: and can execute other servers next to Linux.
2017-04-19T13:21:59Z phoe: AFAIU
2017-04-19T13:22:53Z p_l: well, L4 delegates pretty much *everything* outside of scheduling and IPC to userland processes, including any kind of device access. Linux just runs as a process there and gets device-related resources delegated to itself
2017-04-19T13:24:32Z p_l: beach: I strongly suspect that anything that is workable would, in the end, remind in implementation details a file system, even if not from top-level developer view. But I think this requires a nice whiteboard with colored markers and hour or two for discussion somewhere quiet :D (next ECLM/ELS?)
2017-04-19T13:26:28Z beach: Deal!
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2017-04-19T13:28:06Z p_l: beach: an interesting quote from a filesystem developer: "Database people sometime get really surprised when it shows up that we talk same language and ask what database I'm working on." ;)
2017-04-19T13:28:10Z beach: I personally just see RAM as a cache for disk (and other permanent storage).
2017-04-19T13:28:34Z shka: well, yes
2017-04-19T13:28:54Z beach: So I see the disk as being "the" Lisp heap.
2017-04-19T13:29:01Z p_l: beach: There are many practical considerations to have a wildly different view of disk vs. ram, though - though it doesn't mean software and end user can't see it as one
2017-04-19T13:29:35Z beach: As devices, they are of course very different.
2017-04-19T13:29:43Z p_l: (including many chances for fun stuff to happen in the transforms involved between what's on-disk and what's in-memory)
2017-04-19T13:30:47Z beach: That can be handled with check sums.
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2017-04-19T13:30:59Z beach: ... and probably should.
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2017-04-19T13:31:45Z phoe: beach: I wonder about garbage collection.
2017-04-19T13:32:25Z phoe: If I simply get 4 GB of RAM and 40 GB of HDD swap space and call SBCL with 44G of heap, then it theoretically should work, right?
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2017-04-19T13:33:20Z phoe: Then it stores some of its data on hard drive, and then a full garbage collection is initiated.
2017-04-19T13:33:54Z phoe: Won't the system slow to a halt because of all the swapping required by GC and happening because of a huge swap space?
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2017-04-19T13:36:15Z holycow: shka: beaches lisos specification of a lis operating system covers everything we chatted about this morning really
2017-04-19T13:36:24Z holycow: if you haven't read it take a peak.
2017-04-19T13:36:40Z shka: i already read it
2017-04-19T13:36:43Z beach: p_l: How do existing systems handle this problem?  Like what does Linux do to verify the transfer from "swap space" to RAM?
2017-04-19T13:36:46Z holycow: thought so :)
2017-04-19T13:37:09Z TMA: phoe: GC would need to be made aware of that
2017-04-19T13:37:22Z beach: phoe: No, you would be able to use at most 40GB, the space of the disk.
2017-04-19T13:37:47Z shka: this is not that complex, really
2017-04-19T13:38:17Z beach: phoe: My estimation is that the vast majority of all data on a computer consists of videos and photos, i.e. data that is not required to be scanned by the GC.
2017-04-19T13:38:20Z shka: basicly your ram is pool of fresh objects, HDD is pool of older objects that were swapped out
2017-04-19T13:39:00Z beach: phoe: Such data would never be paged in, unless it is required by an application for viewing or listening.
2017-04-19T13:40:10Z shka: anyway
2017-04-19T13:40:31Z beach: The correct term is "paged out".  The term "swapping" refers to moving entire processes between RAM and disk.  But I know, it has been abused by Unix derivatives.
2017-04-19T13:40:52Z beach: p_l: Did you see my question?
2017-04-19T13:40:52Z shka: you can GC your persistant memory just once in a while
2017-04-19T13:41:04Z shka: that would be the other p
2017-04-19T13:41:09Z shka: phoe: ;-)
2017-04-19T13:41:46Z shka: and further more, you can even GC persitant stuff in the background
2017-04-19T13:42:29Z shka: not even that complex to implement
2017-04-19T13:45:16Z beach: p_l: I frequently find myself in situations like this.  I.e., I have some improvement to suggest.  But then, suddenly, I am not only asked how that improvement works, but it is demanded that I improve on EVERYTHING.
2017-04-19T13:45:19Z beach: And if I can't, I feel like my initial improvement is rejected.  For example, recently, I talked about Second Climacs and its improved incremental parser.  Suddenly, I was asked how it would handle a user-defined reader macro that forks the input stream and reads it later.  I mean, I can't do that, but neither can Emacs or any other editor.
2017-04-19T13:45:46Z p_l: beach: sorry, I had to unlock my account -_-
2017-04-19T13:46:49Z p_l: beach: most operating systems don't checksum swap space at the moment directly in swapping code. Some systems do verification at lower layer in the stack, essentially guaranteeing that "this page I just copied from disk was not corrupted by outside influence"
2017-04-19T13:46:57Z beach: phoe: There are some great new GC techniques around.  For one thing, most GC invocations would be thread-local.  Others would be incremental and concurrent.
2017-04-19T13:48:04Z beach: p_l: Thanks.
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2017-04-19T13:48:43Z p_l: beach: I think a little bit of that is that us Lispers are just used to this crazy powerful thing, and when someone speaks of something novel we go "aha! now I could do something like this... could I actually do something like this?"
2017-04-19T13:48:45Z p_l: ;)
2017-04-19T13:49:04Z holycow: its also that all users suck
2017-04-19T13:49:39Z beach: p_l: Possibly, but it gets very tiring and boring, at least to me.  It makes me not want to discuss much of what I do.  Which is why I most often don't.
2017-04-19T13:49:47Z p_l: holycow: some users are just used to software sucking so much and being impossible to modify that they accept things and go on shoveling dirt chained :)
2017-04-19T13:49:56Z holycow: i was once at a lug and some nice people were in there showing off some programming tricks they used to do some spam blocking and all the users started talking about this antivirus vs that solution
2017-04-19T13:50:23Z p_l: beach: yeah. I try to not give out that vibe, but I am unfortunately a bit of "well-actually know-it-all" ^^;
2017-04-19T13:50:31Z holycow: p_l: that too
2017-04-19T13:50:51Z beach: p_l: This is not your problem of course.  I am just explaining my reaction.
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2017-04-19T13:53:23Z argoneus: is there a clean way to write a function that returns whether a given list has an even amount of items?
2017-04-19T13:53:33Z argoneus: I can't think of any way without using helper functions or variables
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2017-04-19T13:55:23Z beach: That would be clean.
2017-04-19T13:55:47Z p_l: beach: I was generally imagining a much more complex system than just swapping to disk and back (even with checksums), because of practical reasons, distribution of code, etc.
2017-04-19T13:56:20Z p_l: Using something like ZFS, but instead of emulating POSIX semantics on top use the underlying object graph more directly, with first-class *images* even
2017-04-19T13:56:27Z beach: p_l: See, that's one of the problems I have not yet solved.  Others would be eliminating wars and famine.
2017-04-19T13:56:36Z p_l: haha
2017-04-19T13:57:05Z phoe: argoneus: (defun oddp (x) (cond ((null x) t) (null (cdr x)) nil) (t (oddp (cddr x))))
2017-04-19T13:57:10Z phoe: not really lispy because of TCO
2017-04-19T13:57:20Z holycow votes for zfs
2017-04-19T13:57:30Z p_l: beach: I was more worried about getting an end result similar to how you install ITS from scratch on real hw, or avoiding cases like "how do you bootstrap CMUCL?????"
2017-04-19T13:57:38Z argoneus: TCO?
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2017-04-19T13:58:14Z beach: p_l: Would it be OK if I let *you* worry about that?
2017-04-19T13:58:47Z p_l: beach: oh, sure! It's fascinating thing, and in no way I'm arguing you should be the one to fix it
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2017-04-19T13:58:56Z phoe: s/TCO/TR/
2017-04-19T13:58:58Z phoe: tail recursion
2017-04-19T13:59:01Z beach: p_l: Thanks!
2017-04-19T13:59:06Z argoneus: ah
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2017-04-19T13:59:11Z beach: argoneus: Do you just want to know whether the total length of the list is even or odd?  Or are you counting a particular item?
2017-04-19T13:59:12Z p_l: but if we had something generally hackable to start with, I'd be very tempted to spend some time hacking on it
2017-04-19T13:59:19Z argoneus: beach: just true/false
2017-04-19T13:59:20Z p_l: just that constant lack of time... -_-
2017-04-19T13:59:44Z beach: argoneus: Are you counting ALL items in the list, or the occurrences of a particular item, like 234?
2017-04-19T14:00:33Z beach: argoneus: First one: (oddp (length list))
2017-04-19T14:00:49Z beach: argoneus: Second one: (oddp (count 234 list))
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2017-04-19T14:01:34Z phoe: argoneus: but I'd use a helper variable in this case if I was implementing such a function
2017-04-19T14:02:52Z beach: p_l: I know that problem, alright.
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2017-04-19T14:04:05Z beach: p_l: Plus, I have come to realize that, even if we had money to throw at the problem, it would not help.  All Lispers that are qualified enough to help out are already fully employed.
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2017-04-19T14:04:54Z phoe: beach: it might help them change their employment though
2017-04-19T14:05:24Z beach: phoe: Yes, with enough money, that might work.
2017-04-19T14:05:53Z phoe: if I had a stable job that would mean that I write Lisp, I wouldn't think thrice
2017-04-19T14:06:05Z p_l: beach: I know lispers who would love a lisp-related job... just saying
2017-04-19T14:06:09Z phoe: ^
2017-04-19T14:06:10Z beach: phoe: I was thinking more of the type of money I could afford myself and that might be possible to get from crowdfunding.
2017-04-19T14:06:12Z shka: well, i would also switch
2017-04-19T14:06:19Z p_l: especially if we're talking CL, not Clojure
2017-04-19T14:06:23Z shka: but i am not qualified for this
2017-04-19T14:06:35Z phoe: beach: yes, I know. Crowdfunding is hard to call stable.
2017-04-19T14:06:43Z beach: p_l: Oh, I do too.  But the ones I know would not be able to do the job I would ask from them.
2017-04-19T14:06:46Z phoe: Maybe soon, when I manage to get some financial buffer for myself.
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2017-04-19T14:07:25Z p_l is on a consulting spree that unfortunately has very little lisp
2017-04-19T14:07:32Z p_l: maybe I'll manage to put in some clojure
2017-04-19T14:08:21Z p_l: most of what I do these days is system operations, not software dev
2017-04-19T14:08:25Z holycow: beach: lots of patreon accounts make decent money
2017-04-19T14:08:32Z p_l: holycow: not enough
2017-04-19T14:09:05Z holycow: actually its probably on that end of the scale isn't it?
2017-04-19T14:09:09Z p_l: that said, I should ask trinitr0n if he has one... man is doing Good Work by preserving Lisp Machines
2017-04-19T14:09:36Z holycow: however, a set of subscription services might be some options
2017-04-19T14:15:33Z shka: well, the problem here is that you need experts, but current experts are busy and future potential experts are getting expertise in other areas
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2017-04-19T14:15:47Z shka: because there is no room for non-experts in here
2017-04-19T14:15:56Z shka: tadam!
2017-04-19T14:15:58Z shka: ;-)
2017-04-19T14:16:19Z beach: shka: so we need to come up with a way of turning non-experts into experts.
2017-04-19T14:16:34Z phoe: boom, we're back at the topic of documentation.
2017-04-19T14:16:46Z beach: That's part of it, yes.
2017-04-19T14:17:19Z phoe: What are the other parts?
2017-04-19T14:17:24Z beach: shka: Alternatively, we need an expert project planner who can extract individual tasks and suggest them to non-experts.
2017-04-19T14:17:40Z phoe: Books? Tutorials? Videos?
2017-04-19T14:19:17Z beach: phoe: Give me a few minutes to think of an answer to to that.
2017-04-19T14:19:18Z shka: well, issue is that people need time and energy to learn
2017-04-19T14:19:33Z shka: both are limited
2017-04-19T14:19:46Z shka: especially if you need actual job to earn for a living
2017-04-19T14:19:47Z phoe: beach: it's an important question. I value your input on it..
2017-04-19T14:20:11Z beach: phoe: Good documentation makes it faster for someone who has already decided to become an expert to do so faster, and for someone who is already an expert to become even more productive.
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2017-04-19T14:20:37Z shka: phoe: documentation is like sex, you know…
2017-04-19T14:20:39Z phoe: beach: So we know how documentation is important. What about other factors?
2017-04-19T14:20:52Z beach: phoe: I think we need to find a way of turning people who don't know how to become experts into experts.
2017-04-19T14:20:57Z shka: if it is good, it is really GOOOOOOOOOOD, and if not, it is better than nothing
2017-04-19T14:21:05Z phoe: beach: Exactly.
2017-04-19T14:21:26Z beach: phoe: That is a much harder problem.  I don't know how to do it.
2017-04-19T14:21:33Z phoe: I suspect it is going to a social process as much as a technical one.
2017-04-19T14:21:40Z beach: phoe: ... and this is despite the fact that it is part of my job.
2017-04-19T14:21:54Z phoe: beach: don't worry, we're all learning here.
2017-04-19T14:22:05Z p_l: beach: I think you're better at that than me
2017-04-19T14:22:12Z phoe: ^
2017-04-19T14:22:18Z beach: p_l: You have very low standards. :)
2017-04-19T14:22:22Z p_l is stuck trying to teach his gf, and not because of her having problems learning...
2017-04-19T14:22:28Z p_l: starting from basics is just *hard*
2017-04-19T14:23:23Z p_l: especially when, like me, you want to do it right and thus you start looking towards at least skimming CS proper
2017-04-19T14:24:30Z beach: There is also the problem of transmitting things that are not just knowledge, but also inspiration, desire to learn, estimating things (engineers acquire that over many years), etc.
2017-04-19T14:25:27Z beach: phoe: Example: How much data is there on a typical desktop computer that is NOT just videos, sound, and text?
2017-04-19T14:26:01Z phoe: beach: Such things would need to be transmitted through text, or so I expect.
2017-04-19T14:26:03Z beach: ... and binary code.
2017-04-19T14:26:13Z phoe: This is a thing I would like to read an article about.
2017-04-19T14:26:28Z p_l: beach: surprising amount of databases, for one
2017-04-19T14:26:29Z phoe: With some exercises later.
2017-04-19T14:26:45Z beach: phoe: See, you are already determined to become an expert.  So it is easy to generalize and think that everyone else is just like you.  It just aint so.
2017-04-19T14:26:53Z p_l: ^ exactly
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2017-04-19T14:27:38Z beach: phoe: And that's the mistake that nearly all professors make as well.  They assume that the students are young versions of themselves.  It just aint so.
2017-04-19T14:28:08Z shrdlu68 is almost done with cl-tls
2017-04-19T14:28:55Z p_l: beach: another common problem especially *outside* academia is getting the basics of basics so you can go on to "interesting stuff"
2017-04-19T14:28:56Z phoe: beach: I'll turn your question the other way - how possible it is for other people to become determined to become an expert?
2017-04-19T14:29:32Z phoe: Because, okay, I am determined. Why? What are the causes? Can one influence that choice or the causes?
2017-04-19T14:29:34Z beach: p_l: I am willing to believe you.
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2017-04-19T14:29:59Z beach: phoe: All good questions.  I don't know.
2017-04-19T14:30:18Z beach: phoe: The book I just read named "Peak" has some answers.
2017-04-19T14:30:29Z phoe: beach: Link me please?
2017-04-19T14:30:37Z Reinisch: I have a mental framework that might help in this line of inquiry.
2017-04-19T14:30:38Z beach: p_l: Do you have a more concrete example?
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2017-04-19T14:30:48Z beach: phoe: Hold on...
2017-04-19T14:30:52Z phoe: Reinisch: Link me please?
2017-04-19T14:31:03Z Reinisch: Usually people want to solve a problem.
2017-04-19T14:31:15Z Reinisch: phoe: no link, just an idea
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2017-04-19T14:31:33Z phoe: Reinisch: We have a problem - not enough experts. Can this problem count?
2017-04-19T14:31:40Z phoe: s/Can/Does/
2017-04-19T14:31:41Z p_l: beach: imagine you're trying to teach someone programming, from start. It's not academic environment, they are not students who are "by default" going to try to get the assignments done
2017-04-19T14:31:48Z shrdlu68: Not enough lisp experts?
2017-04-19T14:32:01Z Reinisch: if you find someone that doesn't know how to add, and you try to teach them addition,
2017-04-19T14:32:19Z p_l: beach: my issues were - how do I make it not entirely abstract at start? How do I prevent discouragement due to lack of visible progress?
2017-04-19T14:32:28Z Reinisch: you may run into the problem of them not really being interested or invested in learning addition
2017-04-19T14:32:52Z beach: phoe: https://www.amazon.ca/Peak-How-Master-Almost-Anything/dp/0670068764
2017-04-19T14:32:57Z Reinisch: but if you take that same uninterested person and make them have a problem that addition will solve...
2017-04-19T14:33:11Z Reinisch: like force them to be a grain counter for the village or what have you
2017-04-19T14:33:29Z Reinisch: then when they have a hard time doing the thing they do every day (count)
2017-04-19T14:33:37Z p_l: How do I balance my desire to give "proper" tools and education vs. what is readily applicable in workplace? Especially when the latter often involve byzantine smoke-and-mirrors boilerplate that isn't easy to explain to someone who just wants to program the computer to get something to happen
2017-04-19T14:33:53Z Reinisch: suddenly you teaching them addition is amazing and helpful and they care and are invested.
2017-04-19T14:34:31Z beach: p_l: Yes, I see.  But you overestimate typical university students.  They want to get a degree with as little effort as possible.  They are not particularly interested in learning the material.
2017-04-19T14:34:49Z p_l: beach: in a way, had we had a more programmable and inspectable computers, I'd have less of a problem - I'd show them how to play around in a REPL to bend the programs to do what they want
2017-04-19T14:34:52Z Reinisch: so, to round-about answer phoe's question to beach: how possible it is for other people to become determined to become an expert?
2017-04-19T14:35:16Z Reinisch: you have to first make it a problem that they aren't an expert
2017-04-19T14:35:22Z phoe: Reinisch: so it's about motivation and leveraging peoples' frustration
2017-04-19T14:35:24Z shrdlu68: Reinisch: Not necessarily.
2017-04-19T14:35:30Z p_l: beach: oh, I'm not overestimating them... with university students I just have the stick as available device, not just carrot
2017-04-19T14:35:34Z shrdlu68: People turn away from problems.
2017-04-19T14:35:47Z Reinisch: well, a less antagonistic phrasing may help
2017-04-19T14:35:49Z phoe: to have experts, you first need frustrated people
2017-04-19T14:35:50Z beach: Reinisch: Well, professors who fail over and over again typically declare that "It is not possible to teach people who don't want to learn".  It is a very comfortable opinion to have.
2017-04-19T14:36:14Z p_l: beach: a student, if they want a degree, even as fast and easy as possible, gets to deal with exams and assignments etc. - if they don't do them, well, bye bye diploma
2017-04-19T14:36:14Z phoe: ...which isn't as insane as it might first sound
2017-04-19T14:36:24Z shrdlu68: They go look for something else to do with their time.
2017-04-19T14:36:37Z beach: p_l: Bah, cheating is much faster and requires less energy.
2017-04-19T14:36:42Z Reinisch: usually people that want to learn magic tricks have the problem of not being able to confuse/surprise their friends
2017-04-19T14:37:07Z p_l: (I'm probably a bit of outlier, as I entered university with huge desire to learn only to face non-academic problems breaking me down)
2017-04-19T14:37:13Z Reinisch: in that scenario, there's less "frustration" and "having *problems*"
2017-04-19T14:37:16Z Reinisch: but it'
2017-04-19T14:37:21Z beach: p_l: That's exactly what I said to phoe.
2017-04-19T14:37:28Z Reinisch: s still, I want to do a thing, so I must learn
2017-04-19T14:37:43Z p_l: beach: Sometimes cheating works, but I don't think cheating on my university exams would have been easy or applicable
2017-04-19T14:37:52Z Reinisch: beach: fair enough.
2017-04-19T14:38:21Z p_l: you might cheat on assignments, maybe even on dissertation, but exams tended to be harder
2017-04-19T14:38:23Z beach: p_l: You would be surprised.  One time, I caught one student using his cellphone to take a photo of his exam and sent it to another student in the same room.
2017-04-19T14:38:46Z p_l: beach: ah, that would be caught... quickly at my uni
2017-04-19T14:38:59Z p_l: (by the very fact of how visible it would be)
2017-04-19T14:39:25Z Reinisch: but the overall point I'm making is that all the questions I'm seeing about how to engage a potential student, or how to get through basics toward fun stuff...
2017-04-19T14:40:02Z Reinisch: a lot of those questions seem more approachable (to me) through a framework of not trying to solve a problem that someone doesn't yet have
2017-04-19T14:40:07Z p_l: and anyway, if I were a lecturer or worse at university, I wouldn't care about cheaters - I would care to find those who want to teach and let cheaters fall on their own cheats
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2017-04-19T14:41:12Z Reinisch: Good discussion/thoughts all around! cheers all
2017-04-19T14:41:18Z p_l: I would not be invested in a cheating student out of 100 who fails exam where they suddenly have to think by themselves
2017-04-19T14:42:11Z p_l: I would be invested when teaching someone 1:1 something they do want to learn, but they asked me precisely because just forcing through books and trial and error isn't appreciable use of time, anymore
2017-04-19T14:42:17Z beach: Sure.  Anyway, there seems to be a need, either to turn non-expert Lispers into expert Lispers, or to organize projects so that non-experts can contribute.
2017-04-19T14:43:04Z p_l: and given that I personally learnt nearly everything through tinkering and trial and error and ancient dusty tomes speaking of FORTRAN77 as new language...
2017-04-19T14:43:33Z beach: p_l: Yes, introspection.  I know it well.  It has very limited success when applied to others.
2017-04-19T14:43:39Z p_l: (or of Common Lisp as recent standardization effort for an enterprise-class Lisp language)
2017-04-19T14:44:25Z beach: In what context did you speak about Common Lisp that way?
2017-04-19T14:44:56Z beach: Oh, this is again about extending the standard?
2017-04-19T14:45:01Z p_l: beach: not myself, but a book I found as a small kid
2017-04-19T14:45:08Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-04-19T14:45:20Z beach: Now I understand.  Sorry.
2017-04-19T14:45:35Z p_l: my first two contacts with Lisp involved a book about AutoLISP and another about Scheme (titled, actually, "The Programming Language LISP")
2017-04-19T14:45:57Z shka: heh
2017-04-19T14:46:07Z discardedes: book any good?
2017-04-19T14:46:16Z shka: computer archeology :-)
2017-04-19T14:46:16Z discardedes: i like to keey an eye out for good classics
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2017-04-19T14:47:16Z discardedes: i recently read Object Oriented Programming in CL by Sonya Keene, and I feel like I finally get OOP in a much better way
2017-04-19T14:47:30Z discardedes: it was written in the 80s
2017-04-19T14:47:43Z discardedes: learned more about OOP than years of using Java
2017-04-19T14:47:50Z beach: discardedes: If you feel that way, I highly recommend you read the CLIM II spec.  That's how I REALLY got it.
2017-04-19T14:48:09Z discardedes: thanks for the recommendation!
2017-04-19T14:48:16Z beach: Anytime.
2017-04-19T14:48:25Z discardedes: :-)
2017-04-19T14:48:37Z beach: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html
2017-04-19T14:48:46Z nyef: Mmm. The CLIM II spec is dreadful in several respects, but in terms of its use of object oriented techniques it is very good.
2017-04-19T14:48:58Z discardedes: ohhhh.... awsome!
2017-04-19T14:49:00Z beach: I completely agree.
2017-04-19T14:49:15Z discardedes: Im trying to figure out what to use OOP on
2017-04-19T14:49:20Z shka: not really about lisp but Transaction Processing: Concepts and Techniques is surprisingly worth reading
2017-04-19T14:49:24Z discardedes: i finally see it as something awsome and beautiful
2017-04-19T14:49:29Z discardedes: something i could never see before
2017-04-19T14:49:38Z discardedes: but its tricky to figure out how to apply it
2017-04-19T14:49:52Z discardedes: i kinda feel you need a good grasp of the domain in order to apply it
2017-04-19T14:49:57Z discardedes: and some good insights
2017-04-19T14:50:42Z discardedes: thanks shka!
2017-04-19T14:51:01Z p_l: discardedes: I think the book was pretty good, it was I think even a book written purely in polish, but I can't find it
2017-04-19T14:51:24Z discardedes: oh.....
2017-04-19T14:52:33Z p_l goes to extreme and starts digging out national archives
2017-04-19T14:52:56Z p_l: the book actually talked about Scheme, specifically T, but wasn't dogmatic about what is what in lisp ;)
2017-04-19T14:53:05Z discardedes: Ive been working on modifying emacs in a way to suite how I want to work on it, and ive been thinking about how an interface design might be designed with oo technique
2017-04-19T14:53:31Z p_l: huh, found some more polish books in archives
2017-04-19T14:53:46Z discardedes: ha.... how hard to learn polish?
2017-04-19T14:53:46Z p_l: for example "LISP: Programming for humanities"
2017-04-19T14:53:51Z discardedes: :-)
2017-04-19T14:53:56Z discardedes: really?
2017-04-19T14:54:04Z phoe: p_l: I saw that book
2017-04-19T14:54:08Z phoe: tiny and not really doog
2017-04-19T14:54:13Z discardedes: even the title doesnt sound ... englih
2017-04-19T14:54:14Z p_l: 1987
2017-04-19T14:54:17Z phoe: discardedes: actually really hard.
2017-04-19T14:54:30Z p_l: another is "Compiler for LISP 1.5 language"
2017-04-19T14:54:34Z phoe: discardedes: "humanities" isn't a good translation I think
2017-04-19T14:54:42Z phoe: more like, "LISP: programming for people studying humane arts"
2017-04-19T14:54:51Z discardedes: ahhh....
2017-04-19T14:54:54Z phoe: beach: so we have two paths we can take now.
2017-04-19T14:55:01Z phoe: 1) how to turn people into experts
2017-04-19T14:55:01Z discardedes: that sounds like an interesting angle
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2017-04-19T14:55:05Z discardedes: i love quirky stuff like that
2017-04-19T14:55:07Z discardedes: :-?
2017-04-19T14:55:10Z discardedes: :-D
2017-04-19T14:55:11Z phoe: 2) how to make it possible for non-experts to contribute
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2017-04-19T14:55:39Z p_l: the LISP1.5 book is a report, 42 pages, from 1974
2017-04-19T14:56:03Z discardedes: i think one way to create a culture would be to have some very user freindly social networking software developed for the culture
2017-04-19T14:57:19Z discardedes: this might address non-expert contributions
2017-04-19T14:57:56Z p_l: well, there are two big lisp communities outside of Scheme and CL or Clojure - Emacs Lisp and *AutoLISP*
2017-04-19T14:58:25Z p_l: pretty sure most people who had contact with lisp in poland had because of AutoLISP
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2017-04-19T14:58:51Z phoe: and LISP 1.5
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2017-04-19T15:00:21Z p_l: phoe: I try to ignore the "shitty intro lecture at CS dept that everyone ignores because it talks about weird ancient languages that we won't ever use"
2017-04-19T15:00:40Z p_l: where the lecturer uses a script that might be from 1970
2017-04-19T15:01:42Z p_l: which leaves with people who remember few things like "lisp is old, slow, and written in all caps"
2017-04-19T15:01:51Z p_l: (sorry for the rant)
2017-04-19T15:02:07Z p_l: afk - "team building" thing at work -_-
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2017-04-19T15:06:40Z beach: phoe: Yes.  I think number 2 is a possible one.
2017-04-19T15:07:00Z beach: phoe: It might actually be a way to accomplish number 1.
2017-04-19T15:07:24Z phoe: beach: I will want to have an audio talk with you, perhaps this evening.
2017-04-19T15:07:27Z discardedes: beach: haha! The CLIM II spec is exactly the kind of stuff Ive been thinking about!
2017-04-19T15:07:52Z discardedes: maybe its more in depth, but user interface type stuff
2017-04-19T15:08:04Z phoe: I want to discuss a few things regarding both of these options in the context of what Reinisch said above.
2017-04-19T15:08:45Z beach: phoe: Out of the question.  In the evening I spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2017-04-19T15:08:56Z beach: discardedes: Glad you like it.
2017-04-19T15:09:07Z discardedes: beach: thanks a million!
2017-04-19T15:09:08Z discardedes: :-D
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2017-04-19T15:09:54Z phoe: beach: Okay! I will need to find some time during my work hours, then.
2017-04-19T15:10:05Z phoe: Tomorrow morning perhaps?
2017-04-19T15:11:06Z beach: Maybe so.
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2017-04-19T15:12:44Z discardedes: i was taking wheelbarrows of dirt to really long rows of garden beds. it's a really big job and each wheelbarrow load feels as if a speck o dirt. at one point, after dumping enough wheelbarrow loads, and you step back, and you can see progress.
2017-04-19T15:12:53Z discardedes: i think programming is like that too
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2017-04-19T15:15:30Z discardedes: it struck me how it was as if there was no progress for x wheelbarrow loads, and suddenly i noticed alot of progress x+1 wheelbarrow loads
2017-04-19T15:16:51Z discardedes: like, you only notice a continuum or gradient in chunks or whatever
2017-04-19T15:17:10Z discardedes: (or maybe not you, but me)
2017-04-19T15:17:12Z discardedes: :P
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2017-04-19T15:19:11Z discardedes: phoe: maybe a suprisingly good book to get people interested in lisp is Common Lispcraft
2017-04-19T15:19:26Z nyef: Heh. "Only notice a continuum or gradient in chunks", sounds like quantum physics! (-:
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2017-04-19T15:20:15Z discardedes: nyef: :-)
2017-04-19T15:20:43Z discardedes: phoe: so.... what if you get people interested, using a good vector, but you are prepared with the next step?
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2017-04-19T15:20:53Z phoe: discardedes: I don't know.
2017-04-19T15:20:54Z phoe: That's the thing.
2017-04-19T15:21:00Z phoe: I don't yet know what the next step is.
2017-04-19T15:21:17Z discardedes: yeah...... thats quite the interesting thing to be talking about
2017-04-19T15:21:18Z discardedes: :-D
2017-04-19T15:21:19Z phoe: Me, beach and probably some other people need to put some thoughtwork in this.
2017-04-19T15:21:27Z phoe: I get people interested. What then?
2017-04-19T15:21:48Z larsen: discardedes: many of the things you point out about learning resonate with another book I like and I recommend. it's rather old so perhaps you already know it, but just in case: "Mindstorms" by Seymour Papert.
2017-04-19T15:21:48Z phoe: This interest is a natural resource that can be cultivated, that's a fact.
2017-04-19T15:22:13Z discardedes: larsen: I dont... thank you VERY much for the recommendation!
2017-04-19T15:22:24Z discardedes: larsen: imo, good books are timeless.
2017-04-19T15:22:26Z discardedes: :-D
2017-04-19T15:22:53Z larsen: discardedes: it has been made available for free recently http://mindstorms.media.mit.edu/
2017-04-19T15:23:02Z discardedes: ahhhh... thank you very much!
2017-04-19T15:23:18Z phoe: larsen: hahahaha
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2017-04-19T15:23:22Z phoe: the first page of the book got me
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2017-04-19T15:23:49Z beach: phoe: Perhaps it would be interesting to try number 2 a bit.  Take a particular project, figure out what needs to be done.  Break the task down into manageable pieces with detailed instructions.  Then submit it to see whether anyone would be interested.  Also offer to review the solution before merging it into the project.
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2017-04-19T15:24:22Z phoe: larsen: https://i.imgtc.com/Nm9JAUI.png
2017-04-19T15:24:25Z phoe: beach: Sure.
2017-04-19T15:24:43Z phoe: Hmmm.
2017-04-19T15:24:48Z nyef: beach: The checkpointing bits in your LispOS document look an awful lot like a GC flip. Can they / should they be unififed at some level?
2017-04-19T15:25:08Z larsen: phoe: maybe an unfortunate choice for the cover, yes
2017-04-19T15:25:23Z beach: nyef: I am pretty sure you are right about that.
2017-04-19T15:25:56Z discardedes: something that caught my eye recently is these books on a language (i think called "sketch") which are focused on getting children to write programs.
2017-04-19T15:26:03Z Reinisch: beach: phoe: As someone that sought out problems like EulerProblems and 99-Lisp problems, I could definitely see myself as willing to try cracking a defined problem as part of a project as you indicated.
2017-04-19T15:26:24Z larsen: discardedes: was it Scratch, perhaps ?
2017-04-19T15:26:37Z discardedes: yeah!
2017-04-19T15:26:51Z discardedes: in python i think?
2017-04-19T15:27:03Z larsen: Scratch stems from the work of Papert. same lab actually, IIRC
2017-04-19T15:27:04Z discardedes: anywho.... i am intrigued
2017-04-19T15:27:08Z beach: Reinisch: Good to know.  Thanks!
2017-04-19T15:27:48Z discardedes: beach, Reinisch: I cant view it on the terminal. What is the gist?
2017-04-19T15:28:13Z beach: discardedes: I said: Perhaps it would be interesting to try number 2 a bit.  Take a particular project, figure out what needs to be done.  Break the task down into manageable pieces with detailed instructions.  Then submit it to see whether anyone would be interested.  Also offer to review the solution before merging it into the project.
2017-04-19T15:28:37Z discardedes: "<phoe> 2) how to make it possible for non-experts to contribute" ?
2017-04-19T15:28:50Z discardedes: ic
2017-04-19T15:28:53Z beach: Right.
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2017-04-19T15:29:08Z discardedes: so try to break a big project into mini jobs
2017-04-19T15:29:18Z beach: Right.
2017-04-19T15:29:34Z discardedes: that dont..... overlap with a bunch of inter-related dependencies
2017-04-19T15:29:55Z beach: I think there is a psychological problem here.  As a person running a project, I feel it is easier to just do the thing myself, but I do think I am under-estimating the tasks at hand.
2017-04-19T15:29:56Z discardedes: i love the idea
2017-04-19T15:30:03Z discardedes: im interested in this too
2017-04-19T15:30:15Z discardedes: id even say, this speaks to a passion of mine
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2017-04-19T15:30:49Z beach: What passion is that?
2017-04-19T15:30:58Z phoe: beach: Is SICL, for example, a feasible source of this technique from number 2)?
2017-04-19T15:31:07Z discardedes: beach: getting people to coordinate their actions productively
2017-04-19T15:31:17Z beach: phoe: It could very well be.
2017-04-19T15:31:21Z phoe: Describe what needs to be done, then describe how it should be done, then offer it to be done?
2017-04-19T15:31:24Z beach: discardedes: I see, yes.
2017-04-19T15:32:20Z discardedes: this is a very interesting thread
2017-04-19T15:32:25Z discardedes: we seem to all be on the same page
2017-04-19T15:34:14Z discardedes: "Describe what needs to be done, then describe how it should be done, then offer it to be done?" might be considered a concept for which many mechanisms might apply.
2017-04-19T15:35:02Z phoe: this is basically bounty posting
2017-04-19T15:35:03Z beach: The problem is the balance between the energy it takes to describe what needs to be done and the time it would take for the same person to do it instead.
2017-04-19T15:35:05Z discardedes: but also..... what if it could be made more dynamic than purely to dow.....
2017-04-19T15:35:16Z discardedes: top down....
2017-04-19T15:35:30Z phoe: beach: obviously it doesn't make sense if it's counterproductive
2017-04-19T15:35:35Z discardedes: what about also focusing on getting people to generate good ideas
2017-04-19T15:35:56Z beach: phoe: Well, it could.  If it is an investment in turning non-experts into experts.
2017-04-19T15:36:10Z phoe: beach: then it's not counterproductive.
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2017-04-19T15:36:22Z beach: Right.
2017-04-19T15:36:25Z phoe: I mean for you for example, since you're already an expert I think.
2017-04-19T15:36:34Z beach: But that's hard to know a priori.
2017-04-19T15:36:49Z phoe: I think that it might be worth to simply try with a few cases and investigate the results.
2017-04-19T15:37:00Z beach: I agree.
2017-04-19T15:37:08Z phoe: Like - post a few smaller bounties for SICL tasks, possibly varying them in how much energy you spend describing the tasks.
2017-04-19T15:37:24Z phoe: Like, one gets very little energy, other more, other is really detailed.
2017-04-19T15:37:25Z Reinisch: beach: yeah! hopefully after a couple of contributions are hand-holding exercises, the newbie (me) can take a more independent stab
2017-04-19T15:37:32Z discardedes: for example, what if people generated interfacing concepts? and some mechanism was put in place to rank these?
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2017-04-19T15:38:41Z Reinisch: (reinforcing the investment in future-experts idea)
2017-04-19T15:38:56Z discardedes: this might give a "downstream" (in the direction of what people want) push
2017-04-19T15:39:09Z discardedes: wrt interfaces
2017-04-19T15:39:14Z beach: All good points.
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2017-04-19T15:40:33Z phoe: beach: and once you do these, I think I can join in the effort.
2017-04-19T15:41:05Z phoe: Both as someone who can try doing some of these tasks and as someone who can try coordinating the efforts and helping others with some basicmost Lisp stuff.
2017-04-19T15:41:39Z phoe: Obviously - we will need a centralized place for storing the tasks and managing their state. GitHub issues might be such a place.
2017-04-19T15:43:09Z beach: Definitely the best place.
2017-04-19T15:43:10Z discardedes: phoe, beach: i think we attacking the exact same problem from oppossite directions.
2017-04-19T15:43:29Z phoe: discardedes: good.
2017-04-19T15:45:26Z discardedes: phoe, beach: you are talking about getting people to implement what you know can be implemented. I am talking about generating interfaces that people find desirable (independent of if they can actually be made).
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2017-04-19T15:45:44Z phoe: discardedes: yes, I can see it.
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2017-04-19T15:48:19Z discardedes: something i think that is key to this, some kind of client/server technologies
2017-04-19T15:49:04Z discardedes: something to glue this together, to make things efficient as it becomes clear what needs to be made efficient
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2017-04-19T15:52:19Z discardedes: one thing ive been thinking about is getting AWAY from developing for the browser.
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2017-04-19T15:54:10Z discardedes: among the ideas ive been thinking about, developing client/server technologies for other platforms, such as emacs, small-talk, and anything else that I might not know about which has interesting potential.
2017-04-19T15:54:41Z beach: phoe: How about something like this: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/issues/81
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2017-04-19T15:55:40Z discardedes: leveraging oop, we MIGHT be able to make some kind of inter-platform platform
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2017-04-19T15:55:55Z beach does not know what that means.
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2017-04-19T15:56:11Z discardedes: ill build from a simple example
2017-04-19T15:56:29Z discardedes: i was thinking about how i might manipulate interfaces on my computer screen
2017-04-19T15:56:51Z discardedes: and since im an Emacs user, i am influenced by that style of manipulation
2017-04-19T15:57:21Z discardedes: so in emacs, i might have say, a list of buffers, and have a key-command cycle through them
2017-04-19T15:57:50Z discardedes: then imagine that instead of a list of buffers, i had a list of class "viewable-elements" or something
2017-04-19T15:58:09Z discardedes: where (view-it viewable-element) was specialized to different classes
2017-04-19T15:58:30Z discardedes: so i imagined that i might be able it integrate emacs and stumpwm elements seamlessly
2017-04-19T15:59:06Z discardedes: although im not quite sure about how to design it yet, the idea is that there might be lists of emacs and X windows cycled through seamlessly
2017-04-19T15:59:25Z phoe: beach: I think it's good enough, except I would add a few line breaks in the text at the bottom to separate the logical sub-tasks.
2017-04-19T15:59:26Z discardedes: any maybe other stuff too, if i can figure out good abstractions
2017-04-19T15:59:50Z phoe: I can see two such subtasks there.
2017-04-19T16:00:02Z phoe: One for editing conditions.lisp and the other for editing condition-reporters-english.lisp
2017-04-19T16:00:28Z phoe: And the "zeroth", main task, being editing remf-defmacro.lisp.
2017-04-19T16:00:36Z discardedes: so in the above example, there are two platforms, emacs and stumpwm
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2017-04-19T16:01:06Z discardedes: and they are integrated by the class system
2017-04-19T16:02:35Z discardedes: now imagine that you had, for example, some kind of inter-platform client/server stuff....
2017-04-19T16:03:04Z beach: phoe: Better: https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL/issues/81 ?
2017-04-19T16:03:12Z discardedes: so it might be that im on emacs, your on smalltalk, and someone else is using browser JS or something, but these are all communicating with one another...
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2017-04-19T16:03:55Z discardedes: it is a platform, but it is also inter-platform (across platforms)
2017-04-19T16:04:10Z discardedes: like international (across nations)
2017-04-19T16:04:43Z beach: discardedes: I am having a hard time following what you are saying, probably because I don't quite get what the problem is.  But that's probably just me.  I am notorious for having a hard time understanding. :(
2017-04-19T16:04:44Z presiden: multinational
2017-04-19T16:05:05Z discardedes: beach: im notorious for being incomprehensible!  :-P
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2017-04-19T16:10:38Z discardedes: presiden: i guess you could say "a multi-platform platform".
2017-04-19T16:11:41Z Reinisch: beach: I like the look of it.  There are some words/concepts I'm not familiar with, so it would take me a few minutes of looking around to see if I could actually try to do it.  But that said, what you wrote gives me a clear indication of what is wrong, what needs to happen, and what I can look to as an example.  Seems like a good start to me.
2017-04-19T16:12:05Z phoe: Reinisch: there's also the fact of beach's code being quite a work of art when it comes to cleanliness and order.
2017-04-19T16:13:00Z beach: Reinisch: Thanks.
2017-04-19T16:13:18Z beach: Reinisch: It is not that hard actually.  I deliberately started with something very doable.
2017-04-19T16:14:01Z phoe: Reinisch: feel free to try doing that one
2017-04-19T16:14:02Z discardedes: beach: /wrt link: a specific condition for *each* error?
2017-04-19T16:14:15Z phoe: if you need any help, feel free to fire it here
2017-04-19T16:14:21Z beach: discardedes: Not for each call to error, no.
2017-04-19T16:14:28Z Reinisch: beach: Okie dokie, I'll dig into it after lunch.
2017-04-19T16:14:39Z beach: discardedes: A specific condition for each, well, condition.
2017-04-19T16:14:45Z Reinisch: phoe: thx, will do
2017-04-19T16:15:18Z phoe: we need a God damn #lisp-bounties channel
2017-04-19T16:15:22Z discardedes: can you guys come up with a repository for your requests?
2017-04-19T16:15:23Z beach: discardedes: So in this case, the task is to create a single additional condition.
2017-04-19T16:15:24Z phoe: or just a generalized list of everything that should be done that we can search and filter
2017-04-19T16:15:36Z phoe: discardedes: haha, exactly
2017-04-19T16:15:56Z discardedes: coordinate somehow? i would love to check in now and then!
2017-04-19T16:16:00Z phoe: something like one giant trello board.
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2017-04-19T16:17:05Z discardedes: "trello board" haha! cool! th
2017-04-19T16:17:10Z discardedes: ats a new one on me!
2017-04-19T16:17:14Z discardedes: :-D
2017-04-19T16:17:17Z Reinisch: I have used Trello before
2017-04-19T16:17:25Z Reinisch: I would be on board with that scheme
2017-04-19T16:18:08Z beach: I don't think I can be part of creating infrastructures like that.  But I can certainly use one if that should be called for.
2017-04-19T16:20:55Z phoe: gah, we need one more kanban board
2017-04-19T16:21:31Z discardedes: what about an old fashioned forum?
2017-04-19T16:21:54Z Reinisch: I also like the idea of starting off without much overhead (like the Trello board, etc.), and just adding it as needed
2017-04-19T16:22:04Z phoe: ^
2017-04-19T16:23:02Z discardedes: post-mini-project then interact with users
2017-04-19T16:23:25Z discardedes: link it up to github
2017-04-19T16:23:38Z discardedes: project links to github, forum centralizes it
2017-04-19T16:23:49Z discardedes: each project links to github, forum centralizes the projects
2017-04-19T16:24:04Z phoe: Oooh
2017-04-19T16:24:10Z phoe: I think I got it
2017-04-19T16:25:04Z discardedes: through the forum, you can also help people use github, so it makes learning more interactive and one on one (or community oriented).
2017-04-19T16:25:11Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/lisp-todo/projects/1
2017-04-19T16:25:13Z phoe: Reinisch: ^
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2017-04-19T16:25:54Z phoe: I've created a simple task there, and added you as the person doing it
2017-04-19T16:26:07Z phoe: Now - I need to somehow add you so you can modify that list
2017-04-19T16:26:21Z phoe: add new cards, move and edit existing ones, and so on.
2017-04-19T16:28:31Z phoe: beach: I added you there. I guess everyone else is invited, too - https://github.com/phoe/lisp-todo/issues/1
2017-04-19T16:28:40Z discardedes: what if..... a group of people ran a forum (or somesuch) from their home? is there a way to run a forum in a distributed way?
2017-04-19T16:28:47Z beach: phoe: Yes, I saw it.  Thanks.
2017-04-19T16:28:59Z phoe: beach: should be centralized.
2017-04-19T16:29:02Z phoe: uh I mean
2017-04-19T16:29:02Z discardedes: then you can customize how you operate
2017-04-19T16:29:09Z phoe: discardedes: should be centralized.
2017-04-19T16:29:23Z phoe: beach: You need to accept the invitation and then you can add notes on that board and move them around.
2017-04-19T16:29:51Z beach: I don't see an invitation.
2017-04-19T16:30:22Z discardedes: phoe: what if it was centralized in some kind of distributed way? For example, if you are writting the software, then that is a form of centralization.
2017-04-19T16:30:45Z discardedes: or if you are running the repository or whatever
2017-04-19T16:30:50Z phoe: discardedes: I see. I think I'm too sleepy to be able to think on it right now.
2017-04-19T16:31:24Z discardedes: phoe: np..... i love discussing and working on stuff like this
2017-04-19T16:31:32Z beach: OK, time for me to call it a day and go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
2017-04-19T16:31:34Z discardedes: i am wondering a best first step
2017-04-19T16:31:45Z discardedes: cya beach
2017-04-19T16:31:48Z phoe: beach: See you!
2017-04-19T16:31:48Z discardedes: :-)
2017-04-19T16:32:01Z phoe: beach: I sent you the link on query.
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2017-04-19T16:32:18Z discardedes: what about a mailing list?
2017-04-19T16:32:24Z discardedes: thats fricken dead simple!
2017-04-19T16:32:46Z Reinisch: o/ beach
2017-04-19T16:32:50Z phoe: discardedes: we got a mailing list server, it died some time ago methinks.
2017-04-19T16:33:22Z discardedes: well..... the idea is that, when you want to discuss this stuff, you can discuss it on the mailing list to keep the ball rolling.
2017-04-19T16:33:56Z phoe nods.
2017-04-19T16:34:01Z phoe: I will need to run off in a few moments, too.
2017-04-19T16:34:05Z discardedes: so even if you only have something to say once a week or whatever or the subject.... the fire is still kept alight
2017-04-19T16:34:35Z nyef: I know that with SBCL, every so often I have time and energy, so I look over the bug tracker for the intersection of "interesting" and "doable".
2017-04-19T16:34:56Z nyef: Simply having a task list of loose ends to tie off that people know about can be a help.
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2017-04-19T16:35:44Z discardedes: hmmm....
2017-04-19T16:36:09Z phoe: nyef: that's what I've done right now.
2017-04-19T16:36:18Z phoe: A task list of low hanging fruit.
2017-04-19T16:36:58Z discardedes: ive been working on emacs interface stuff.
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2017-04-19T16:37:29Z discardedes: my new thing to play with is simultaneous keypresses
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2017-04-19T16:37:40Z nyef: Not necessarily low-hanging fruit, but a full tree, so that people can pick low-hanging fruit... or break out one of those bucket-lift things if they have one.
2017-04-19T16:37:59Z discardedes: which i can now detect that if keys are pressed within a tolerace, i consider them simultaneous
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2017-04-19T16:38:31Z discardedes: then simultaneous key presses can run different actions
2017-04-19T16:38:47Z discardedes: for example, the arrow keys navigate in 2 dimentions
2017-04-19T16:38:55Z phoe: nyef: sure thing.
2017-04-19T16:39:10Z discardedes: now imagine if you press two arrow keys at once, that you navigate among navigation schemes
2017-04-19T16:39:20Z discardedes: all without moving your hand away from the arrow keys
2017-04-19T16:39:24Z discardedes: and all with uing only one hand
2017-04-19T16:40:01Z phoe afk
2017-04-19T16:40:14Z discardedes: to give an idea, maybe you are traversing a 2d space with the arrowkeys, but combinations change the plane.
2017-04-19T16:40:55Z discardedes: ([up][down]) at the same time might modify the plane of navigation in some way.
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2017-04-19T16:44:14Z discardedes: thanks for the conversation all! love the ideas!
2017-04-19T16:44:19Z discardedes: keep em comming!
2017-04-19T16:44:20Z discardedes: :-D
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2017-04-19T20:11:30Z jasom: anybody know who has channel operator privileges for #lispweb?  The topic has been pointing to a broken link for over a year now.
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2017-04-19T20:14:47Z nyef: jasom: I think that chanserv might know?
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2017-04-19T20:21:36Z jasom: nyef: thanks, I was able to find the magic command; madnificent is the only one with any special privileges there
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2017-04-20T02:51:05Z loke`: hello
2017-04-20T02:51:34Z loke`: I expect Beach to say “good morning” in about 10 minutes from now.
2017-04-20T02:51:40Z loke`: maybe 15.
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2017-04-20T02:58:51Z vtomole: Hey loke
2017-04-20T02:59:44Z loke`: Hello vtomole
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2017-04-20T03:22:54Z drmeister: Simultaneous jupyter notebook REPL and Slime REPL - both running in a docker container.
2017-04-20T03:22:55Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/CSNaEXy.png
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2017-04-20T03:23:57Z drmeister: So that I can develop code with slime and test them in a jupyter notebook interface  to provide to users.
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2017-04-20T03:26:13Z drmeister: Hey froggey - did you write code to convert llvm-ir to Common Lisp?
2017-04-20T03:26:31Z loke`: drmeister: He did.
2017-04-20T03:26:36Z loke`: it's awesome :-)
2017-04-20T03:26:48Z vtomole: drmeister:https://github.com/froggey/Iot
2017-04-20T03:26:58Z vtomole: opps https://github.com/froggey/Iota
2017-04-20T03:27:06Z loke`: It's a code generator backend that spits out Common Lisp code.
2017-04-20T03:28:47Z drmeister: That is really impressive.
2017-04-20T03:28:59Z drmeister: Does it handle exception handling code?
2017-04-20T03:29:20Z drmeister: Not to diminish the achievement.
2017-04-20T03:29:37Z drmeister: Exception handling code is tricky stuff.
2017-04-20T03:32:24Z akkad: it's impressive stuff
2017-04-20T03:33:11Z Bike: the TODO says it lacks C++ support and mentions exceptions
2017-04-20T03:34:59Z holycow: drmeister: how are you using jupyter? i've seen that before but never really understood what it is for
2017-04-20T03:35:32Z drmeister: holycow: It's a REPL geared more towards users than programmers.
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2017-04-20T03:35:45Z drmeister: It's like Mathematica notebooks
2017-04-20T03:36:12Z holycow: aha. and ... it integrates with slime according to your screenshot? that is an extension you built for it?
2017-04-20T03:37:25Z drmeister: I added threads to Clasp - that lets me start up swank in a separate thread from the jupyter notebook.  Both servers then run in the same Common Lisp environment.
2017-04-20T03:37:48Z drmeister: So I can write code with Slime and test it in the jupyter notebook.
2017-04-20T03:37:58Z holycow: no kidding.
2017-04-20T03:38:01Z holycow: holy cow
2017-04-20T03:38:19Z drmeister: We are adding jupyter widgets - buttons, sliders, and interactive 3d graphics viewers to the jupyter notebook.
2017-04-20T03:38:38Z holycow: umm, that is very cool indeed. i had no clue.
2017-04-20T03:38:46Z drmeister: It will be easier to develop them interactively with Slime while testing them live.
2017-04-20T03:39:05Z drmeister: I didn't either until about a month ago.
2017-04-20T03:39:11Z holycow: huh.
2017-04-20T03:39:27Z drmeister: Docker is also cool - I build the entire thing in a Docker container and then it runs on linux, windows and OS X.
2017-04-20T03:39:30Z drmeister: Do you use Docker?
2017-04-20T03:39:46Z akkad: docker all day
2017-04-20T03:39:57Z drmeister: Check it out.    drmeister/cando
2017-04-20T03:39:59Z holycow: not yet.  i'm a bit skeptical, i like my package manager.  will be looking into it a little bit.
2017-04-20T03:40:05Z drmeister: It's on dockerhub
2017-04-20T03:40:14Z akkad: think of it as a shippable chroot
2017-04-20T03:40:15Z holycow: aha. k.
2017-04-20T03:40:30Z drmeister: Docker lets you run a linux operating system in a thin virtual machine.
2017-04-20T03:40:33Z holycow: akkad: *nod* k.
2017-04-20T03:41:17Z drmeister: It is really nice if you run servers.   That's what this is.   When you run the docker container it gives you a URL that you type into your browser and away you go.
2017-04-20T03:43:52Z holycow: i'll look into it, thanks.
2017-04-20T03:44:07Z holycow: however, nice job on the jupyter integration.  that is really nifty.
2017-04-20T03:44:31Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/hCUHsfF.png
2017-04-20T03:45:33Z vtomole: unrelated: What is the molecule rendered in that picture?
2017-04-20T03:45:52Z holycow: excellent question
2017-04-20T03:45:58Z drmeister: That is two jupyter notebooks side-by-side running from the same docker container.   The one on the left is Cando/Common Lisp - it built a molecule.  The one on the right is Python - I'm using it to visualize the molecule.   This summer I'm hiring some undergraduates to add jupyter widgets to cl-jupyter.
2017-04-20T03:46:17Z drmeister: That molecule is one that my student synthesized a couple of weeks ago.
2017-04-20T03:46:27Z holycow: i was thinking that one day climacs could do what jupyter does, but this is great.
2017-04-20T03:46:31Z drmeister: It's a prototype for a new class of compounds.
2017-04-20T03:46:52Z drmeister: I'm using cl-jupyter - it works out wonderfully.
2017-04-20T03:47:27Z drmeister: https://github.com/fredokun/cl-jupyter
2017-04-20T03:47:42Z drmeister: Frederic Peschanski did a great job
2017-04-20T03:47:43Z holycow: akkad: so what you are saying is that docker makes LINUX the deployment virtual machine, not the language or framework like java, kde or gnome
2017-04-20T03:47:46Z holycow: hmmm
2017-04-20T03:48:00Z drmeister: holycow: Right.
2017-04-20T03:48:33Z holycow: well that is just ... fricking dandy.  who then care if we ever win the desktop when all devs can deploy linux docker components?
2017-04-20T03:48:36Z holycow: huh
2017-04-20T03:48:41Z drmeister: You start with a small linux image and then run it and install libraries and stuff into it.
2017-04-20T03:49:09Z drmeister: You don't get direct access to the hardware at this point.  No graphics.
2017-04-20T03:49:28Z drmeister: I'm using a server/client approach and the graphics is handled with Javascript in a browser.
2017-04-20T03:49:55Z vtomole: drmeister: Hmm when i try to install, i get "Error: IPython not available" I have anaconda installed.
2017-04-20T03:49:59Z drmeister: That's what jupyter widgets takes care of.
2017-04-20T03:50:16Z holycow: nice
2017-04-20T03:50:21Z drmeister: vtomole: Are you running the drmeister/cando image?
2017-04-20T03:50:51Z vtomole: No, just the cl-jupyter link you posted
2017-04-20T03:51:25Z drmeister: Oh - you have to set things up properly - that's Python version hell for you.
2017-04-20T03:51:43Z drmeister: I have all of the dependencies sorted out in the Dockerfiles in cando.
2017-04-20T03:51:46Z drmeister: Hang on...
2017-04-20T03:51:49Z vtomole: dang. Yeah i have 2 and 3 installed at the same time
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2017-04-20T03:52:48Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/QfstOWXq/
2017-04-20T03:53:11Z drmeister: The first half of it sets up the dependencies for cl-jupyter and jupyter notebooks.
2017-04-20T03:53:58Z drmeister: I've been banging my head against the wall for weeks getting this stuff sorted out.   cl-jupyter is great.   The python dependencies that support it - yikes.
2017-04-20T03:55:01Z drmeister: That's another thing that's great about docker - I can sort out the dependencies, bundle them up in an image - and they will run anywhere.    No more headaches trying to debug other peoples package configuration.
2017-04-20T03:55:31Z holycow: drmeister: can you bundle in apt and point it to your repo and keep everything updated in the image?
2017-04-20T03:55:57Z drmeister: You can mount host directories within the Docker container - so it can operate on files on your computer and save things between sessions.
2017-04-20T03:56:46Z drmeister: holycow: Yes - there are several approaches.
2017-04-20T03:57:09Z drmeister: I install my code on the host machine and then copy it into the docker container that I'm building.
2017-04-20T03:58:28Z drmeister: I'm really excited about it.   I put a lot of work into Clasp/Cando's build system and I was really sweating the anticipated problems of helping people build it on their systems.
2017-04-20T03:58:46Z holycow: neat.  i'll google more later. i have absorbed too much new info in the last two days here.
2017-04-20T03:58:49Z drmeister: Not to mention, it still takes 2 hours to build Cando.
2017-04-20T03:59:08Z drmeister: This way you can be up and running Cando in the 10 min it takes to download drmeister/cando
2017-04-20T03:59:40Z drmeister: It's really amazing.
2017-04-20T03:59:51Z holycow: 2 hours? ouch. k.
2017-04-20T04:00:07Z drmeister: We have a slow compiler - we are working on it.
2017-04-20T04:00:57Z akkad: drmeister: nice. much from ql work well now?
2017-04-20T04:01:01Z drmeister: Rather, we have a compiler that makes heavy use of generic functions and inefficient generic function dispatch among other things.    We are working on it.
2017-04-20T04:01:06Z drmeister: ql?
2017-04-20T04:01:09Z akkad: quicklisp
2017-04-20T04:01:19Z drmeister: Oh yeah - quicklisp is awesome.
2017-04-20T04:01:34Z akkad: wondered how well packages ran on a new implementation
2017-04-20T04:02:11Z drmeister: Things that don't work are now usually due to implementation dependencies.  I fork the projects, fix up the dependencies and install it in quicklisp/local-projects.   It works like a charm.
2017-04-20T04:02:28Z akkad: nice
2017-04-20T04:02:39Z drmeister: I'll make pull requests to the authors once I catch my breath.
2017-04-20T04:02:55Z drmeister: Lots of things just work.
2017-04-20T04:03:22Z drmeister: babel, ironclad, pzmq are just a few that I didn't have to make any changes to.
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2017-04-20T04:03:59Z drmeister: Here are the ones that I've made Clasp specific implementation changes:
2017-04-20T04:04:00Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/h3x2t3sA/
2017-04-20T04:04:57Z drmeister: Here are the ones that I use that I haven't.
2017-04-20T04:04:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Psd12V3p/
2017-04-20T04:05:10Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-20T04:05:16Z drmeister: Clasp is working pretty well.
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2017-04-20T04:05:51Z drmeister: It's everything I wanted.   Faster would be better - but other than building it - it's fast enough to get things done.
2017-04-20T04:06:05Z drmeister: Hi beach.
2017-04-20T04:06:29Z beach: drmeister: Congratulations to getting what you wanted.
2017-04-20T04:07:00Z drmeister: I try sometimes and I get what I need.
2017-04-20T04:07:20Z beach: Heh!
2017-04-20T04:08:04Z beach: That reference may be lost on most #lisp participants.
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2017-04-20T04:13:11Z drmeister: Well, I'm off to bed. Good night everyone
2017-04-20T04:13:20Z beach: 'night drmeister.
2017-04-20T04:16:54Z loke`: Good night drmeister
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2017-04-20T07:27:54Z beach: phoe: New issue on the concrete-syntax-tree library: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree/issues/1 that can be worked on by a non-expert, but might need a some help from me.  Is there anything I should do with it with respect to your new site?
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2017-04-20T07:30:25Z beach: Bike: At some point, could you take a look at this proposed enhancement:  https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree/issues/1 to see whether the specification is complete enough, and appropriate?
2017-04-20T07:30:31Z beach: Aww.
2017-04-20T07:30:51Z beach: minion: memo for Bike: At some point, could you take a look at this proposed enhancement:  https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree/issues/1 to see whether the specification is complete enough, and appropriate?
2017-04-20T07:30:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Bike when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-04-20T07:31:47Z phoe: beach: you can post it on that board, yes.
2017-04-20T07:32:21Z beach: OK, so it is up to each person wanting this done to do the post?
2017-04-20T07:32:40Z shka: beach: No description, website, or topics provided.
2017-04-20T07:32:55Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/lisp-todo/projects/1 <- this is the link.
2017-04-20T07:33:00Z beach: I will never remember that.  And even if I remember it, I won't remember where the site is located or how to do it.
2017-04-20T07:33:02Z phoe: beach: yes, more or less.
2017-04-20T07:33:27Z phoe: beach: I can make it possible for you and others to remember it.
2017-04-20T07:33:36Z beach: And the fact that I need to figure that out by browsing #lisp logs, means I'll probably drop it altogether.
2017-04-20T07:33:55Z beach: phoe: Wow, you can improve my memory?  Excellent!
2017-04-20T07:34:12Z phoe: beach: I cannot improve your memory, but I can use some simple memoization tricks to help you remember it better.
2017-04-20T07:34:33Z beach: In fact, posting the link on your site is a TYPICAL task that can be done by a non-expert.
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2017-04-20T07:35:39Z phoe: beach: Does it mean that non-experts can post links on my site but experts cannot!?
2017-04-20T07:35:42Z shka: phoe: i thought you were working on some kind of neural chip to improve human memory and you are like "I can IMPROVE you"
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2017-04-20T07:37:12Z shrdlu68: I want to create a wild pathname with :type '("crt" "pem" "der")
2017-04-20T07:37:22Z shrdlu68: Any way to do it at a go?
2017-04-20T07:37:44Z shrdlu68: Or do I have to do it for all three separately?
2017-04-20T07:37:56Z beach: phoe: Not quite.  Here is what I am saying: I am trying very hard to implicate non-experts in the work that I am doing.
2017-04-20T07:38:01Z beach: phoe: Already, by providing very detailed descriptions of what needs to be done, it is borderline that it is not cost effective, because writing the specification that can be understood by a non-expert is significantly difficult that it is tempting for me to drop it and just do the task myself
2017-04-20T07:38:30Z beach: phoe: The more stuff I have to do, the more advantageous it becomes to just do the task myself.
2017-04-20T07:39:00Z shrdlu68: beach: What are you up to?
2017-04-20T07:39:26Z beach: phoe: Otherwise, the entire thing turns into a gigantic teaching experience, which I am not convinced will pay off.  In fact, even writing the detailed specification is probably very unlikely to give any concrete result.
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2017-04-20T07:40:11Z beach: shrdlu68: Trying to save the world from bad computing environments.  But it is going to take some time.
2017-04-20T07:40:22Z shka: beach: you could at least provid readme for this lib
2017-04-20T07:40:42Z beach: Yes, of course.
2017-04-20T07:41:46Z shrdlu68: Ah, 'tis your hands that authored "lispos.pdf"?
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2017-04-20T07:41:54Z beach: shrdlu68: Yes.
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2017-04-20T07:44:44Z phoe: easye: I request the domain guild.lisp.org or any similar one that will serve a single static HTML page, pointing to https://github.com/Lisp-Guild and most importantly to https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1 as a place where one can post tasks to be done.
2017-04-20T07:44:48Z phoe: minion: memo for easye: I request the domain guild.lisp.org or any similar one that will serve a single static HTML page, pointing to https://github.com/Lisp-Guild and most importantly to https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1 as a place where one can post tasks to be done.
2017-04-20T07:44:49Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell easye when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-04-20T07:45:10Z phoe: beach: I bet that you can remember the name of a Guild of Lispers.
2017-04-20T07:54:36Z phoe: beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree/issues/1 - "It should take three parameters", but the list has four elements.
2017-04-20T07:58:27Z beach: shka: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Concrete-Syntax-Tree
2017-04-20T07:58:41Z beach: phoe: Thanks.
2017-04-20T07:59:27Z beach: phoe: Fixed.
2017-04-20T08:00:23Z beach: I guess I should be more positive.  By being forced to provide more information, I also expose more of what it is that I want to do.
2017-04-20T08:00:26Z phoe: beach: Thanks as well. Nonetheless - Guild of Lispers. Is that rememberable?
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2017-04-20T08:01:00Z shka: beach: thank you!
2017-04-20T08:01:04Z beach: phoe: Yes, very much so.  But not to me.  I can't remember anything.  But don't worry.  I'll just ask and ask again.
2017-04-20T08:01:07Z phoe: Lisp Guild, Guild of Lispers, a place where you post Lisp tasks and where you can find Lisp tasks, guild.lisp.org.
2017-04-20T08:01:16Z phoe: beach: don't worry. I'll be happy to remind you.
2017-04-20T08:01:50Z beach: shka: Sure.  Let me know what you think.  It is important to me that what I write is understandable.
2017-04-20T08:02:35Z beach: shka: If you have questions, I'll be happy to answer them.
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2017-04-20T08:06:02Z phoe: beach: the task you've posted is understandable, but it's unclear to me what a CST is. I know that it's an abbreviation for a Concrete Syntax Tree, but I need more information on what it is.
2017-04-20T08:06:16Z phoe: Structure, purpose, how to manipulate it.
2017-04-20T08:06:17Z phoe ask
2017-04-20T08:06:20Z phoe afk*
2017-04-20T08:07:30Z shka: beach: i think i understand what it says
2017-04-20T08:07:42Z shka: and i think that i know what it is for
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2017-04-20T08:13:57Z shka: in fact, i think i will need this in future
2017-04-20T08:14:02Z beach: phoe: Yes, of course.
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2017-04-20T08:23:20Z shka: beach: can CST depend on optima?
2017-04-20T08:31:09Z beach: phoe: Here is an introduction http://metamodular.com/concrete-syntax-tree.pdf
2017-04-20T08:31:18Z beach: shka: That depends on what optima is.
2017-04-20T08:31:32Z shka: pattern matching library
2017-04-20T08:31:49Z shka: https://github.com/m2ym/optima
2017-04-20T08:32:09Z beach: What would I use it for?
2017-04-20T08:34:53Z shka: after looking at your source code i am taking it back
2017-04-20T08:35:33Z beach: Oh, OK.
2017-04-20T08:41:06Z shka: beach: do you mind if I add unit tests based on prove to this system?
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2017-04-20T08:52:18Z beach: shka: Please go ahead.
2017-04-20T08:52:53Z shka: ok, cool, i will do that
2017-04-20T08:53:08Z beach: There is already a Test subdirectory.  You can put things there.
2017-04-20T08:53:24Z shka: yes, i was expecting to see unit tests in there
2017-04-20T08:53:36Z beach: I don't use unit tests much.
2017-04-20T08:53:42Z beach: I much prefer random tests.
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2017-04-20T08:53:52Z beach: Then I don't have to enumerate all test cases manually.
2017-04-20T08:54:14Z shka: same here, but i still prefer to launch those from unit test framework
2017-04-20T08:55:00Z shka: and besides, it is usefull when bug pops up on some corner case and you want to make sure that it won't pop up again
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2017-04-20T09:14:42Z beach: phoe: New chapter on basic use as you requested: http://metamodular.com/concrete-syntax-tree.pdf
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2017-04-20T09:43:42Z phoe: beach: Thanks. I made a comment on your issue with this link - the person doing it will IMO need to read it.
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2017-04-20T09:51:14Z phoe: Also, the task was added to the page.
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2017-04-20T09:57:22Z beach: Great, thanks.
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2017-04-20T11:23:20Z shaftoe <3 lisp
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2017-04-20T11:25:53Z beach: phoe: I have no idea how to add a new thing to the first column of your new site.
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2017-04-20T11:28:17Z phoe: beach: https://i.imgtc.com/A7VYfmh.png
2017-04-20T11:28:22Z phoe: Do you see this plus button?
2017-04-20T11:28:54Z beach: Got it, thanks.
2017-04-20T11:29:38Z phoe: The syntax I've used so far is, three lines, separated by double line breaks. First line - assigned user in brackets, empty if no one is. Second - the title of the related issue. Third - link to the GitHub issue.
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2017-04-20T11:29:54Z phoe: But then again, it's just my idea. Post anything that's readable.
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2017-04-20T11:31:25Z beach: How do I create that abbreviated link?
2017-04-20T11:31:34Z beach: ... as opposed to the full URL.
2017-04-20T11:31:36Z phoe: Just post a full GitHub link.
2017-04-20T11:31:42Z phoe: The shortcut will be created automatically.
2017-04-20T11:31:47Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-04-20T11:32:00Z phoe: The system is smart enough to recognize GitHub links and shorten them.
2017-04-20T11:33:47Z beach: Yes, but I am not smart enough to realize that, apparently.
2017-04-20T11:34:05Z beach: I suck when it comes to web stuff.
2017-04-20T11:34:29Z phoe: Don't worry.
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2017-04-20T11:34:51Z phoe: I'm here when it comes to web stuff, plus many other people are also Github-capable.
2017-04-20T11:36:47Z beach: Yeah, thanks.
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2017-04-20T11:37:46Z beach: I think the whole purpose of this exercise is for me to do what I am good at, and to let others do what *they* are good at, and I suck at.
2017-04-20T11:38:03Z beach: We'll see whether this exercise will actually work.
2017-04-20T11:38:08Z phoe: Makes sense.
2017-04-20T11:38:20Z phoe: And yes, we'll see.
2017-04-20T11:38:46Z beach: So for the CST library, I am planning to concentrate on writing an Earley parser for lambda lists.  It could be pretty cute, with error recovery and good error reporting.
2017-04-20T11:39:50Z beach: And since I don't know how to describe what to do in detail (it involves some trial-and error, and some design work), it is best that I do it myself to start with.
2017-04-20T11:40:21Z phoe: I see. It might be the best, too.
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2017-04-20T11:40:59Z phoe: So when you end up with some better-defined smaller tasks that can be done externally, you can wrap them up in a few English sentences and post to GitHub.
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2017-04-20T11:41:53Z beach: I will try my best to do that.
2017-04-20T11:42:46Z beach: phoe: Speaking of which, the CLIM II documentation distinguishes between "protocol" and "API".
2017-04-20T11:43:01Z beach: ... without defining the difference.  However, ...
2017-04-20T11:43:37Z beach: it is clear that the protocol is intended to be minimal and complete (as I wrote in that chapter) whereas the API contains convenience functions that can be implemented in terms of the protocol.
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2017-04-20T11:44:42Z p_l: beach: Protocol for extending, API for using?
2017-04-20T11:44:46Z beach: The CLIM II specification is the only document I can recall in which this distinction is made very clear.  I wonder where he (Scott) got that from.  Either way, I think the distinction is very appropriate.
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2017-04-20T11:45:14Z beach: p_l: No, protocol is for using as well, but a protocol function is different in that it can not be defined in terms of other protocol functions.
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2017-04-20T11:45:26Z beach: So CAR is a protocol function, but CADR is not.
2017-04-20T11:46:03Z phoe: beach: I see.
2017-04-20T11:46:14Z phoe: You could actually note this in your chapter about protocols.
2017-04-20T11:46:19Z beach: But CADR would typically be included in the "library" as well, but labeled as an API function.
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2017-04-20T11:46:32Z beach: I think I did.  I hope I did.
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2017-04-20T11:47:34Z beach: I guess I didn't.  :(
2017-04-20T11:47:40Z beach: Oh, well, more work.
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2017-04-20T11:49:09Z beach: phoe: In just a few minutes, I must go away for 2 hours or so.  I'll be back later.
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2017-04-20T11:51:54Z phoe: beach: Okay! Me too.
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2017-04-20T12:19:06Z Ukari: i use sb-thread:join-thread, and can't speak to repl when thread running
2017-04-20T12:19:23Z Ukari: could it start a thread in a non-block way?
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2017-04-20T12:20:39Z varjag: join-thread is waiting for the thread to finish, blocking is the whole point?
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2017-04-20T12:21:07Z varjag: you start a thread with make-thread and it spawns right away without any blocking
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2017-04-20T12:23:11Z Ukari: thank you
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2017-04-20T12:58:00Z varjag: Ukari: i suggest you use bordeaux-threads package to do things in portable way
2017-04-20T12:58:17Z varjag: all implementations nowadays build atop of POSIX threads with relatively minor differences
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2017-04-20T12:58:26Z _death: beach: I don't think I ever encountered this criterion for functions participating in a protocol
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2017-04-20T13:05:43Z _death: I liked this naggum post http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3217374073660749@naggum.net.html
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2017-04-20T13:08:07Z warweasle: Is Arc used in production?
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2017-04-20T13:08:26Z _death: warweasle: it is used for the hackernews site
2017-04-20T13:10:05Z phoe: is it used anywhere other than the hackernews site?
2017-04-20T13:11:05Z _death: there is (used to be?) and arc language forum.. maybe you can find more info there
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2017-04-20T13:12:31Z warweasle: _death: I had a few issues with the syntax. Namely things like "defop" and "prn".
2017-04-20T13:13:23Z warweasle: It they are going to change lisp, at least make it use "modern" conventions like "function" or "print/printf".
2017-04-20T13:13:47Z warweasle: I would really prefer "fun". Because lisp is fun.
2017-04-20T13:14:36Z phoe: but then everything that isn't a function would be of type (not fun)
2017-04-20T13:15:09Z warweasle: phoe: Doh! Yes. If you fun-ify functions, you must also functionalize fun.
2017-04-20T13:15:41Z warweasle: That sounded funny in my head.
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2017-04-20T13:18:08Z warweasle: phoe: I wrote a mini-lisp interpreter a while back and I used "fun" and "mac". Also, it was a lisp-1. I like scheme but I'm more familiar with lisp. Also, I hate "hygienic" macros. It's not the language's job to protect the programmer from themselves.
2017-04-20T13:19:15Z warweasle: </rant>
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2017-04-20T13:20:09Z _death: warweasle: I think that horse has been thoroughly beaten when arc was released.. I think the best thing about arc is that it prompted arcsug.txt
2017-04-20T13:20:50Z warweasle: _death: Well, you can bring a horse to water but you can't drown that son-of-a-bitch.
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2017-04-20T13:20:59Z phoe: _death: arcsug.txt?
2017-04-20T13:21:05Z phoe: ah, I see.
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2017-04-20T13:29:12Z _death: I'm re-reading On Lisp nowadays for the bignumth time.. PG jokes make it worth it
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2017-04-20T13:30:36Z _death: e.g., he's quite the existentialist.. (get 'life 'meaning (gensym)) => #:G618
2017-04-20T13:33:09Z Ukari: will, i use (print "go") (funcall task)
2017-04-20T13:33:16Z Ukari: in my thread
2017-04-20T13:34:12Z Ukari: but, it print go and then wait a second before excute task
2017-04-20T13:36:47Z Ukari: paste.lisp.org/+7DZF
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2017-04-20T13:41:34Z Ukari: i looks my Illusion
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2017-04-20T13:50:07Z filwisher: Has someone got a simple example of cffi-grovel?
2017-04-20T13:54:00Z _death: filwisher: https://github.com/death/monotonic-clock
2017-04-20T13:56:06Z filwisher: Thank you _death
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2017-04-20T14:21:22Z mazoe: I've never made it through all of On Lisp. Last time I tried I got too excited and ended up writing some Lisp instead
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2017-04-20T14:37:45Z beach: _death: It makes sense to me to make a distinction between functions that can be implemented using others, and functions that are fundamental.  Whether you use the terms API vs protocol to characterize them is another thing.  But I am willing to go with the CLIM II terminology since I haven't seen anything better.
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2017-04-20T14:49:29Z shrdlu68: mazoe: I know the feeling.
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2017-04-20T15:12:05Z Reinisch: beach: I think I did the thing from yesterday
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2017-04-20T15:26:48Z beach: Reinisch: I am mostly used to getting pull requests if you know how to do one of those.
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2017-04-20T15:31:16Z Reinisch: beach: I have never contributed to a project before, never submitted a pull request before, and made a few guesses in my attempt to solve the issue you presented
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2017-04-20T15:31:41Z Reinisch: beach: please let me know if I've done anything wrong
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2017-04-20T15:31:55Z beach: I will.
2017-04-20T15:34:17Z beach: Looks pretty good to me.  I merged it.  Thank you very much!
2017-04-20T15:35:09Z beach: There seemed to be some issues with indentation, but it could have been an anomaly related to how GitHub displays things.   I'll look at it and fix it up if necessary.
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2017-04-20T15:39:09Z Reinisch: Oh sorry, I bet it's actually my fault.  I edited things in vim with slimv and I kept seeing warnings about mixed-indentation, but I didn't know what to do about that.
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2017-04-20T15:39:54Z beach: Yes, it was a minor problem.  I fixed it.  Nothing to worry about.
2017-04-20T15:39:57Z beach: Thanks again!
2017-04-20T15:40:27Z Reinisch: no, thank you! I've now contributed something. Feels good.
2017-04-20T15:42:44Z beach: I might give you some more then. :)
2017-04-20T15:42:56Z beach: But not today.  I am exhausted.
2017-04-20T15:44:42Z Reinisch: fair enough.  At some point if you figure out what the indentation problem is all about, I'd like to fix it on my end so I can hand the code over with proper formatting.  I'm guessing it has to do with using spaces instead of tabs or something like that.
2017-04-20T15:46:15Z beach: Very likely.  I have now set up my Emacs to always use spaces.  But all of my old code still contains TABs.  I am slowly converting old code as I edit it.
2017-04-20T15:47:16Z Reinisch: ahh, okie dokie
2017-04-20T15:47:26Z beach: phoe: How do I move (or whatever should be done) an issue from the "To Do" column to the "Done" column?
2017-04-20T15:47:59Z nyef: beach: There's a good chance that it's drag-and-drop.
2017-04-20T15:48:23Z beach: nyef: Right you are.  Thanks.
2017-04-20T15:51:22Z barton_: Hey I want to learn Common Lisp. I know the basics like recursivity (learned from The Little Schemer) and syntax (learned from several books exercises about CL) Do you think that the following methods would work ?
2017-04-20T15:51:35Z barton_: First, I choose a project (ex: making a web scraper to retrieve every pictures on a website and then add a piece of text on them)
2017-04-20T15:51:41Z barton_: Second, I list the librairies that I'll need to use
2017-04-20T15:51:48Z barton_: For each library I learn how it works and how its maintainer maintains it
2017-04-20T15:51:55Z barton_: Then I realize the code with what I learned, internet and books
2017-04-20T15:52:00Z barton_: EOF
2017-04-20T15:53:30Z aeth: barton_: As far as activity and library ecosystem goes, the most active parts of CL at the moment seem to be web and games.
2017-04-20T15:54:34Z aeth: So if you want to pick a project you should probably pick one of the two.
2017-04-20T15:54:35Z beach: barton_: That would very much depend on the kind of learning you like to do.  It looks like too much of "delayed gratification" for my personal taste.  I would have chosen to do autonomous little projects (possibly useless) first.  But we are all different.
2017-04-20T15:55:30Z aeth: barton_: If you want to do client side stuff, the most enjoyable project would probably be to build something (a game or at least something graphical) with one of many high-level graphics libraries and/or game engines that exist at the moment (Sketch, Xelf, Clinch, CEPL, etc.).
2017-04-20T15:55:32Z beach: barton_: Furthermore, Common Lisp uses very little recursion.  In fact, recursion is only used on naturally recursive but non-linear data structures such as tree.  For lists, iteration is the good choice.
2017-04-20T15:56:01Z loke___: When I really got into doing real things with CL (after years, and _years_ of doing nothing but causally run a repl once in a while), I started by doing my practice challenges for Google Code Jam in is.
2017-04-20T15:56:03Z loke___: it
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2017-04-20T15:57:21Z barton_: you don't get it: I know the basics; I'm asking if this could be a good way to learn advanced stuff
2017-04-20T15:57:55Z beach: barton_: Your idea sounds great!
2017-04-20T15:59:11Z barton_ hit by sarcasm
2017-04-20T16:00:36Z loke___: barton_: You mean, specifically writing a web scraper?
2017-04-20T16:01:32Z barton_: loke___, It is an example
2017-04-20T16:01:53Z loke___: barton_: Well, you are absolutely right tht having some kind of goal is essential to properly learn a language.
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2017-04-20T16:02:17Z loke___: barton_: A project that requires you to use a multitude of libraries is good too, as it helps you understand how Lisp programs are usually designed.
2017-04-20T16:02:32Z larsen: one thing I like about CL is that, with appropriate tools, in-depth exploration of others' code can also be incidental. I'm referring to M-. and stuff like that. In other words, it's a great way to explore a system while pursuing a specific goal
2017-04-20T16:03:25Z loke___: larsen: Indeed.
2017-04-20T16:03:41Z loke___: The fact that the librarie's source code is always there at the touch of a button is incredibly helpful
2017-04-20T16:04:58Z larsen: I can't recall who said in a talk that his personal record of OS contributions in CL was above average, because it was so easy to access code and fiddle with it in case of problems
2017-04-20T16:05:18Z loke___: larsen: That could have been me
2017-04-20T16:05:29Z loke___: larsen: I did say that in a talk that was recorded and out online
2017-04-20T16:05:51Z loke___: But it's such a fundamental truth that I cannot possibly be the first one who said it.
2017-04-20T16:06:12Z larsen: loke___: perhaps about a project done partly in CL (backend) and partly in Clojure (frontend) ?
2017-04-20T16:06:17Z loke___: Yes
2017-04-20T16:06:17Z aeth: barton_: You can do something web-related or you can do something graphical. If you do something graphical, you can either make a traditional app in Qt or use SDL/OpenGL directly or indirectly. At least, that's given my impression of very active libraries.
2017-04-20T16:06:53Z larsen: loke___: :) ok, I'm very bad at remembering nicknames
2017-04-20T16:06:56Z loke___: Hah
2017-04-20T16:07:08Z barton_: aeth, I already know what I'll do (I have some challenges that were set with friends)
2017-04-20T16:07:24Z aeth: okay
2017-04-20T16:07:36Z loke___: aeth: Web would be easier I think. The state of GUI libs on Lisp is a bit of a mess, and the most lispy of them all, CLIM, is not something I'd recommend someone new to Lisp to start out with
2017-04-20T16:07:59Z aeth: loke___: But the client-side of the web is a bit of a mess, too.
2017-04-20T16:08:06Z burtons: Lispworks has a decent cross platform GUI library
2017-04-20T16:08:06Z loke___: aeth: Oh for sure.
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2017-04-20T16:08:26Z loke___: aeth: But one can just do whatever in Javascript and focus on Lisp on the backend.
2017-04-20T16:08:27Z burtons: Called CAPI
2017-04-20T16:08:46Z loke___: burtons: Did anyone create a compatibility CAPI for other platforms?
2017-04-20T16:08:48Z burtons: But I've given up on it for games and am just using a browser shell with a CL backend
2017-04-20T16:08:56Z loke___: Being wedded to LW isn't something that I'd recommend.
2017-04-20T16:09:00Z burtons: loke___: other lisps you mean?
2017-04-20T16:09:08Z loke___: burtons: Yes.
2017-04-20T16:09:13Z burtons: not that i know of
2017-04-20T16:09:18Z loke___: (Lisp is a platform, woudln't you agree?)
2017-04-20T16:09:23Z burtons: some people don't mind paying for working software
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2017-04-20T16:09:59Z burtons: Lisp is an idea ;-)
2017-04-20T16:10:30Z loke___: burtons: I don't mind paying either. But I'd like the freedom to move platforms. Perhaps to Allegro if I end up being very rich (pfft, like that'll ever happen)
2017-04-20T16:10:46Z loke___: Lispers are happy. Not rich.
2017-04-20T16:11:07Z burtons: I'd like the freedom to have a single working platform
2017-04-20T16:11:20Z burtons: I've jumped around lisps long enough without getting anything completed
2017-04-20T16:11:36Z loke___: burtons: There are several working Lisps... Arguably SBCL is the workingest of them all :-)
2017-04-20T16:11:55Z burtons: not for production, from what i've heard
2017-04-20T16:12:17Z burtons: can't say i've experienced it yet, but i have had issues with long running SBCL apps
2017-04-20T16:12:25Z burtons: LW, not so much
2017-04-20T16:12:32Z loke___: burtons: Hmm... Interesting
2017-04-20T16:12:35Z loke___: In what way?
2017-04-20T16:12:35Z mazoe: burtons: oh? Any idea what kind of issues?
2017-04-20T16:12:47Z loke___: I've had SBCL applications running for very long time
2017-04-20T16:12:50Z burtons: low level memory problems
2017-04-20T16:12:54Z loke___: I see
2017-04-20T16:12:59Z burtons: dropping into lldb
2017-04-20T16:13:13Z burtons: at least i've seen that with some of mine
2017-04-20T16:13:18Z mazoe: hmm
2017-04-20T16:13:20Z loke___: I guess it depends very much on the consing patters of a particular application, so very much YMMV
2017-04-20T16:13:32Z shrdlu68: Never seen it, running sbcl on a production server.
2017-04-20T16:13:49Z shrdlu68: But I guess it could depend on a lot of things
2017-04-20T16:13:52Z burtons: i don't want to spread FUD, just what i've heard
2017-04-20T16:13:52Z burtons: and expereienced
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2017-04-20T16:14:26Z loke___: If you link CFFI memory leaks can come from native code as well.
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2017-04-20T16:14:44Z loke___: I've had instabilities triggered by CFFI. Probably a memory overrun in a library or something. Not fun to debug.
2017-04-20T16:17:16Z loke___: Anyway. Time to leave.
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2017-04-20T16:30:23Z Ukari: is there any way to pass exception from a loop thread to the main-thread?
2017-04-20T16:30:35Z Ukari: the loop thread won't end
2017-04-20T16:30:59Z Bike: pass exception...?
2017-04-20T16:31:03Z Ukari: yes
2017-04-20T16:31:13Z burtons: catch the exception in the loop thread and send a mailbox message to the main thread
2017-04-20T16:32:13Z Ukari: so there need another thread to read mailbox in main thread and recover the exception?
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2017-04-20T16:32:28Z Bike: presumably the main thread is checking its mailbox.
2017-04-20T16:33:04Z Ukari: if main thread check mailbox, it counldn't do other things
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2017-04-20T16:33:24Z burtons: non blockingly check the mailbox for messages
2017-04-20T16:34:02Z Ukari: how? use sth like a fiber library?
2017-04-20T16:34:10Z Ukari: non blocking
2017-04-20T16:34:34Z burtons: mailboxes generally have a call to see if they have waiting messages
2017-04-20T16:34:38Z Ukari: but what i make is sth like a fiber library
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2017-04-20T16:36:52Z Ukari: ok, i will try to use restart new thread to read mailbox and then die and restart again
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2017-04-20T17:02:49Z shrdlu68: The openssl channel is surprisingly low-volume.
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2017-04-20T17:11:57Z shka_: Ukari: what exactly you are doing?
2017-04-20T17:14:18Z Ukari: i want to make a key value database, so i need a parallel async log module to help me solve data changing conflicts
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2017-04-20T17:20:40Z shka_: right
2017-04-20T17:21:26Z shka_: Ukari: perhaps you simply should use futures
2017-04-20T17:21:44Z shka_: it probably makes the most sense
2017-04-20T17:24:45Z Ukari: i maybe try it if somewhere would use it
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2017-04-20T17:58:32Z nyingen: hi, I ran into some trouble when installing clws (websockets library) via quicklisp. It depends on 'ironclad', and the auto-install of ironclad fails because of this: https://github.com/froydnj/ironclad/pull/72
2017-04-20T17:59:12Z nyingen: What is the easiest way to fix it? The git repo has the problem fixed, but I don't know how to make quicklisp use it. do I need to manually install it?
2017-04-20T17:59:51Z shka_: nyingen: clone repo, put it into local-projects
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2017-04-20T18:00:24Z shka_: IIRC local-projects take priority over network so this way it should build fine
2017-04-20T18:00:39Z nyingen: oh, I see
2017-04-20T18:00:41Z nyingen: i'll try that
2017-04-20T18:01:02Z nyingen: do I need to do anything to 'reset' the install? like remove what it already downloaded? or will it just work
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2017-04-20T18:01:44Z shka_: it should work, but you will have to ask quicklisp to refresh local-projects
2017-04-20T18:01:53Z shka_: thats one function
2017-04-20T18:02:09Z shka_: don't remember the name but you should figure it out with slime
2017-04-20T18:03:14Z Younder: Someone should write a book 'A life with EMACS'..
2017-04-20T18:03:32Z nyingen: shka_: thanks
2017-04-20T18:03:50Z shka_: you are welcome
2017-04-20T18:04:21Z Younder: GUI never took off with Lispers.
2017-04-20T18:05:21Z shka_: Younder: not true
2017-04-20T18:05:30Z Younder: Kinda gives an impression of old gentlemen with hats and mustaches.
2017-04-20T18:06:25Z Younder: shka_, I know of allegro and lispworks
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2017-04-20T18:07:11Z shka_: Younder: i meant, lisp machines were among first machines with extensive GUI support
2017-04-20T18:07:27Z shka_: CLIM is one of the most serious attempts to redesign GUI stuff
2017-04-20T18:07:38Z Younder: Yes symbolics lisp machines were really cool
2017-04-20T18:08:12Z shka_: there was a lot going on, but then 90s came, lisp was marginalized and we are just in the process of fixing our toys
2017-04-20T18:08:31Z Younder: shka_, CLIM is altso one of Lisp's great failures. I mean it never took off.
2017-04-20T18:08:46Z beach: Younder: I am using it all the time.
2017-04-20T18:08:53Z oleo: me too
2017-04-20T18:08:56Z oleo: eheh :)
2017-04-20T18:09:01Z beach: And gabriel_laddel
2017-04-20T18:09:06Z beach: And, ....
2017-04-20T18:09:10Z shrdlu68: I should take a look at it once I'm done with my current project.
2017-04-20T18:09:21Z shka_: beach: good evening
2017-04-20T18:09:22Z oleo: well it kinda hard but not impossible to use.....
2017-04-20T18:10:13Z oleo: got my book too :)
2017-04-20T18:10:24Z oleo: i ordered 3 books on amazon
2017-04-20T18:10:40Z beach: Hello shka_.  Sorry , can't stay.  I shall go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.  I just wanted to make sure Younder does not spread anymore incorrect information.
2017-04-20T18:10:51Z oleo: winstons 3rd edition
2017-04-20T18:10:58Z oleo: arrived today
2017-04-20T18:11:06Z beach: oleo: Congratulations.
2017-04-20T18:11:11Z shka_: beach: have a nice evening then, and enjoy your beloved ones
2017-04-20T18:11:15Z oleo: will give it a read at weekend
2017-04-20T18:11:26Z beach: shka_: Thanks!
2017-04-20T18:11:49Z Younder: God help I spread incorrect information. After all CLIM is world spread. As popular as windows.
2017-04-20T18:12:31Z shka_: Younder: i think CLIM felt into obscurity not because of it's own flaws
2017-04-20T18:12:41Z Younder: finally
2017-04-20T18:13:03Z Younder: CLIM was to complex.
2017-04-20T18:13:08Z oleo: yep
2017-04-20T18:13:11Z oleo: still is
2017-04-20T18:13:21Z oleo: but anyway....
2017-04-20T18:13:29Z shka_: well, did you programmed with windows API?
2017-04-20T18:13:32Z oleo: if you are into it you'll figure some stuff out
2017-04-20T18:13:33Z shka_: this 90s stuff?
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2017-04-20T18:14:47Z oleo: just wished movitz would be real and all this fishy linux stuf would be left behind......
2017-04-20T18:14:53Z oleo: lol
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2017-04-20T18:19:43Z nyingen: is movitz still being developed?
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2017-04-20T18:20:16Z oleo: afaik not
2017-04-20T18:20:20Z burtons: haven't heard much about it for a while
2017-04-20T18:20:34Z burtons: it's all froggey's mezzano now
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2017-04-20T18:44:11Z phoe: barton_: hey, are you still around?
2017-04-20T18:44:17Z phoe: beach: likewise, are you still around?
2017-04-20T18:44:22Z barton_: phoe, yes
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2017-04-20T18:45:13Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: I'll poke you tomorrow morning, I have a remark about your LispOS paper
2017-04-20T18:45:13Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-04-20T18:46:02Z phoe: barton_: I've noticed you wanted to learn some Lisp; I'll read the logs in a few moments. Do you have any questions about learning Lisp right now, or were they all answered up there?
2017-04-20T18:46:39Z Younder: beach is a brilliant French Lisp developer
2017-04-20T18:47:41Z Younder: thoug he said and i quote: I just wanted to make sure Younder does not spread anymore incorrect information.
2017-04-20T18:47:58Z barton_: phoe, I think I'm on the right path: I learned the basics of the syntax but I want to get into advanced things by decomposing my projects ("building a web scraper" -> understanding drakma and cl-html5-user and lists)
2017-04-20T18:48:35Z phoe: barton_: sure thing. Do you know which books you can consult on your way?
2017-04-20T18:48:35Z Younder: barton_, What is a web scraper?
2017-04-20T18:48:55Z phoe: Younder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_scraping
2017-04-20T18:49:17Z barton_: Younder, a program that parse web pages (that's my definition but I think everyone call it that way)
2017-04-20T18:49:23Z barton_: s/call/define
2017-04-20T18:49:51Z Younder: Sounds like data mining to me..
2017-04-20T18:50:25Z varjag: well it's not
2017-04-20T18:50:37Z barton_: You might want to web scrap to download a picture
2017-04-20T18:50:47Z barton_: for example
2017-04-20T18:50:55Z barton_: that wouldn't be data mining
2017-04-20T18:50:58Z Younder: Well it's a robot scanning web pages for content.
2017-04-20T18:51:07Z varjag: that's not what people usually mean with that
2017-04-20T18:51:12Z Younder: Or so it sounded to me.
2017-04-20T18:51:44Z varjag: a scraper follows the links within a site in a systematic and acyclic fashion
2017-04-20T18:51:54Z varjag: often just downloading the whole thing
2017-04-20T18:51:54Z burtons: web scraping comes from screen scraping
2017-04-20T18:51:58Z Younder: Like google?
2017-04-20T18:52:11Z burtons: google has a web scraper
2017-04-20T18:52:25Z burtons: or a 'page crawler' as it's sometimes called
2017-04-20T18:52:54Z burtons: scraping is generally with just one site...crawling is examining the page to find other links to follow
2017-04-20T18:53:00Z Younder: page crawler goes dow god with this old timer
2017-04-20T18:53:17Z Younder: sorry about the spelling
2017-04-20T18:53:51Z burtons: no worries :)
2017-04-20T18:54:02Z phoe: barton_: anyway - do you know which books you can consult on your way?
2017-04-20T18:54:51Z mazoe quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-04-20T18:57:54Z barton_: I have Basic Lisp Techniques, Lisp For The Web, another general-Lisp book, a Scheme book... But I lack theory (for example I'm learning about parsing right now)
2017-04-20T18:58:27Z barton_: So if you have books that you think will fill this lack...
2017-04-20T18:58:50Z Younder: barton_, What scheme do yo prefer?
2017-04-20T18:58:57Z p_l: beach: how applicable would cleavir et al be to implementing non-CL language? Essentially CL generating specialised low level code
2017-04-20T18:59:07Z jasom: barton_: SICP does cover a lot of theory
2017-04-20T18:59:16Z jasom: minion: tell barton_ about sicp
2017-04-20T18:59:16Z minion: barton_: please see sicp: The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available under the CC-BY-NC Licence at <http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/> (HTML), <http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-texi/> (Texinfo), and <http://twb.ath.cx/ebooks/sicp.pdf> (PDF). Video lectures are available under the CC-BY-SA licence at <http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/>
2017-04-20T18:59:48Z barton_: I know SICP I've seen a big part of the videos but I'll buy the books asap
2017-04-20T19:00:31Z phoe: barton_: there's Practical Common Lisp, a general book for learning CL.
2017-04-20T19:00:34Z Younder: Seen that SICP seies. Good lisp there. As you would expect from MIT.
2017-04-20T19:00:41Z phoe: minion: tell barton_ about pcl
2017-04-20T19:00:41Z minion: barton_: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-04-20T19:01:18Z barton_: I know it too read a part of it (those books are incredibly expensive ;-()
2017-04-20T19:01:36Z mood: barton_: Both of those books can be read online for free
2017-04-20T19:01:41Z jasom: barton_: both are free
2017-04-20T19:02:11Z phoe: barton_: there's links in these messages from minion
2017-04-20T19:02:14Z Younder: That s probably a classic by now. I remember when Seibel had us read and correct chapters.
2017-04-20T19:02:24Z barton_: I know but I don't like reading books online
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2017-04-20T19:04:12Z phoe: barton_: haha, same with me.
2017-04-20T19:04:25Z Younder: The new classice is that Lisp book by Edi Weitz. Common recepies in common lisp
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2017-04-20T19:04:35Z phoe: I actually print the book parts I want to read.
2017-04-20T19:04:42Z Younder: quite good i might add
2017-04-20T19:07:47Z Younder: A good second book.
2017-04-20T19:08:27Z phoe: ^
2017-04-20T19:08:45Z phoe: with the stress that it's second. It's a very good read for someone who is already somewhat competent with CL.
2017-04-20T19:09:24Z Younder: I took over his online version 'The Lisp cookbook' a while back.
2017-04-20T19:09:30Z akkad: yeah. little lisper series is very good
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2017-04-20T19:25:47Z X-Scale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_in_Small_Pieces
2017-04-20T19:26:50Z Younder: Quinnec?
2017-04-20T19:27:10Z Younder: Love that book
2017-04-20T19:28:02Z Younder: Do suggest you get a hard copy though.
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2017-04-20T20:25:45Z rumbler31: On Lisp is good too, if you feel comfortable enough with lisp syntax to read about meaty topics
2017-04-20T20:26:27Z rumbler31: it is also available mostly online but someone has a short tutorial how you can take the files and upload them to that bookbinding service to make your own paperback
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2017-04-20T20:28:28Z Josh_2: You can find it using google open directories if you can't get a copy just googling it
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2017-04-20T20:42:44Z burtons: i made hardcopies of both using lulu.com
2017-04-20T20:43:21Z burtons: pretty easy to just upload a pdf and make a cover, but On Lisp has really big margins
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2017-04-20T20:55:57Z discardedes: Ive used tile glue for book binding in the past.
2017-04-20T20:56:07Z discardedes: Like the kind of glue for ceramic tiles
2017-04-20T20:56:23Z discardedes: inspired by a tutorial i read some time ago
2017-04-20T20:57:34Z discardedes: basically, you can get two little peices of oak, drill holes, and a threaded wingnut to clamp stacks of paper togeter
2017-04-20T20:58:06Z discardedes: the paint the tile glue at the end with a disposable throw away brush.
2017-04-20T20:58:33Z discardedes: all stuff you can get from like home depot, lowes, or any other hardware store....
2017-04-20T20:58:56Z discardedes: sorry, the kind of glue for PVC tiles.
2017-04-20T20:58:59Z discardedes: not ceramic
2017-04-20T20:59:00Z discardedes: :-O
2017-04-20T20:59:29Z Reinisch: instructions unclear, parens stuck in glue
2017-04-20T20:59:47Z discardedes: (unglue-parens)
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2017-04-20T21:00:48Z discardedes: i used milk crates to let the bindings dry
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2017-04-20T21:03:12Z discardedes: stacks of pages (the books) in clamps atop the the long edges of a milkcrate
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2017-04-20T21:03:57Z discardedes: the clamp was longer than the width of the milk crate, if that gives any clue.
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2017-04-20T21:04:59Z discardedes: i still have those books and rarely had any binding problems (usually just a loose page that i glued in after the fact). But the bindings never fell apart or any such.
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2017-04-20T21:05:30Z presiden: I love milk crates :)
2017-04-20T21:05:35Z discardedes: and they are very flexible, as in, books stay open without need to hold them open.
2017-04-20T21:05:48Z discardedes: milk crates are very useful
2017-04-20T21:05:53Z discardedes: :)
2017-04-20T21:06:07Z burtons_: i've never figure out how they hold milk though with all the holes
2017-04-20T21:06:54Z discardedes: why are some sorts of table tops called counters?
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2017-04-20T21:07:10Z discardedes: what do they count?
2017-04-20T21:07:13Z varjag: money
2017-04-20T21:07:35Z discardedes: like what about the "kitchen counter"?
2017-04-20T21:08:48Z varjag: you serve food to people over the counter
2017-04-20T21:10:12Z varjag: if you use the surface just for cooking process it's not really a counter
2017-04-20T21:10:41Z varjag: but as with all natural language the definition is blurry i guess
2017-04-20T21:10:51Z nosefouratyou: hello, I am working on a lisp game and I am stuck trying to figure out how defcallback works. This is what I am doing basically: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/0aaaa9fa112d9857cfefe22aa57e31f5
2017-04-20T21:10:53Z discardedes: i imagine its some transfer of the metaphor for "a place where counting occures".
2017-04-20T21:11:26Z discardedes: like, maybe things where put on the counter in order to take inventory or some such....
2017-04-20T21:12:02Z discardedes: or you pay at the counter, where they see how many (and what kind) you bought.
2017-04-20T21:12:10Z nosefouratyou: in this https://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user-letter.pdf they mention calling it through alien:defcallback but that doesn't seem to work either.
2017-04-20T21:12:16Z nosefouratyou: I am using sbcl by the way
2017-04-20T21:12:44Z discardedes: which makes it seem like counter would have been the name for cashier, but also, why not call the table that too
2017-04-20T21:12:52Z varjag: "In Australian English, the term counter is generally reserved for a surface of this type that forms a boundary between a space for public use and a space for workers to carry out service tasks. "
2017-04-20T21:12:57Z varjag: wikipedia wises up
2017-04-20T21:13:06Z varjag: not sure how in non-aussie englishes
2017-04-20T21:13:14Z discardedes: because if you "pay at the counter" it might be ambiguous if you are talking about the worker or the table.
2017-04-20T21:13:51Z discardedes: varjag: thats an interesting definition...
2017-04-20T21:13:52Z varjag: i don't think it refers to counting
2017-04-20T21:14:11Z discardedes: like.... things that pass that boundary are all inventoried
2017-04-20T21:14:12Z varjag: more like contra another person at the other side of the table
2017-04-20T21:14:22Z discardedes: hmmm.....
2017-04-20T21:14:29Z varjag: same as in 'countersink'
2017-04-20T21:14:49Z discardedes: seem like both applied..... not sure why i fancy the "counting" version....
2017-04-20T21:14:52Z varjag: against something else
2017-04-20T21:15:04Z discardedes: why it feels more .... insightful about something for me
2017-04-20T21:15:29Z discardedes: but i guess yeahh... that makes sense
2017-04-20T21:15:52Z discardedes: like, you face the counter (the other side)
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2017-04-20T21:16:25Z discardedes: its interesting to me that both definitions seem to apply
2017-04-20T21:16:44Z discardedes: because there is some relation between inventory crossing from one side to another
2017-04-20T21:16:54Z discardedes: but idk
2017-04-20T21:17:02Z discardedes: maybe im just being playful with metaphors
2017-04-20T21:17:04Z discardedes: :P
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2017-04-20T21:19:42Z discardedes: sooo... i was thinking about appling OOP to lisp programs, and i think i came up with a simple rule of thumb....
2017-04-20T21:20:43Z discardedes: basically, just program how you normally would, and when you want to have two things behave uniformly within your program, like, you want to add something else that wasnt there but treat it uniformly with the other thing already there, you can introduce OO technique.
2017-04-20T21:20:56Z nosefouratyou: borodust: do you have any experience with defcallback? this is what I am running into https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/0aaaa9fa112d9857cfefe22aa57e31f5
2017-04-20T21:21:47Z discardedes: i think of this as method oriented, because in essense, you have a function (or functions), and you later decide you want to make them methods.
2017-04-20T21:22:06Z discardedes: and then make some kind of class structure with this in mind
2017-04-20T21:22:37Z discardedes: it seems WAY more productive than trying to beat your head against the wall trying to create a class system from scratch that is supposed to be useful.
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2017-04-20T21:23:20Z Reinisch: nosefouratyou: sorry no one is helping you.  I personally don't know a thing about defcallback.  Best of luck. I'm sure sooner or later someone on here will know enough to help you!
2017-04-20T21:24:25Z nosefouratyou: Reinisch: it's okay, all part of the learning process
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2017-04-20T21:31:21Z varjag: nosefouratyou: are you sure cffi is loaded
2017-04-20T21:31:44Z nosefouratyou: varjag: no, I am not. how would I go about that?
2017-04-20T21:31:57Z varjag: (ql:quickload :cffi)
2017-04-20T21:32:40Z varjag: assuming you have quicklisp installed
2017-04-20T21:32:49Z varjag: if not, install that first
2017-04-20T21:33:03Z nosefouratyou: varjag: thank you!
2017-04-20T21:33:09Z varjag: np
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2017-04-20T21:34:22Z varjag: if you go further than just playing in repl, you typically put a dependency for cffi (or whatever system you use) in your project's system definition
2017-04-20T21:34:33Z varjag: .asd file
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2017-04-20T21:42:12Z discardedes: I came across an interesting looking title today, "Programming Paradigms in Lisp", but there is no online version and the book is astronomically priced.
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2017-04-20T21:50:54Z discardedes: yeah... gave it a shot again just now.... still not seeing it
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2017-04-20T21:55:18Z nosefouratyou: I am currently working on this: https://github.com/nosefouratyou/solsim/blob/master/solsim.lisp and instead of an error I get "Lisp connection closed unexpectedly". What am I doing wrong?
2017-04-20T21:56:50Z phoe: nosefouratyou: woah
2017-04-20T21:56:58Z varjag: that's pretty broad question
2017-04-20T21:57:04Z phoe: nosefouratyou: switch to your *inferior-lisp* buffer
2017-04-20T21:57:05Z varjag: but your lisp process aborted
2017-04-20T21:57:10Z phoe: tell me what you find there
2017-04-20T21:57:24Z varjag: probably because you use a foreign interface into C library
2017-04-20T21:57:29Z varjag: and passed a wrong value somewhere
2017-04-20T21:57:47Z _death: nosefouratyou: there's no need to use defcallback here.. you can add a method to glut:motion
2017-04-20T21:58:57Z nosefouratyou: I get this from my messages buffer: https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/5e8ae8ef6b61db56e9f5e4d3757d1e49
2017-04-20T21:59:13Z nosefouratyou: _death: I tried passing a function to it and it didn't work
2017-04-20T21:59:38Z phoe: nosefouratyou: *inferior-lisp* buffer
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2017-04-20T21:59:42Z phoe: tell me what's there
2017-04-20T22:00:21Z nosefouratyou: sorry, here is the inferior-lisp https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/6de1edabce2fa57f8f9377e4ceb65834
2017-04-20T22:01:27Z varjag: sort of self-explanatory
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2017-04-20T22:01:41Z varjag: you should call glutInit first
2017-04-20T22:01:43Z phoe: ^
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2017-04-20T22:02:29Z phoe: and this is being called from C code
2017-04-20T22:02:32Z nosefouratyou: yup, I'm an idiot
2017-04-20T22:02:34Z nosefouratyou: thank you guys!
2017-04-20T22:02:35Z phoe: so no doubt that it kills SBCL
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2017-04-20T22:02:46Z phoe: it gains the power to do so the moment you embrace the world of C
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2017-04-20T22:02:53Z varjag: yeah prolly an assert in c land
2017-04-20T22:03:23Z phoe: for when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you
2017-04-20T22:03:41Z varjag: or it blinks
2017-04-20T22:04:03Z nosefouratyou: man is but a rope between animal and the ubermensch over the abyss
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2017-04-20T22:09:14Z _death: nosefouratyou: here's some old code you may find interesting as an example https://github.com/death/consix/blob/master/gob.lisp
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2017-04-20T22:21:19Z nosefouratyou: _death: thank you! that's a really cool game
2017-04-20T22:23:30Z _death: I thought about writing a new (small) one sometime soon.. but idea begets idea and soon there's a flood of project ideas, so we'll see how it goes
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2017-04-20T22:49:37Z phoe: nightly reminder: there are three tasks posted on the lisp guild page, available for anyone who'd like to grab some experience with a relatively simple task on real world code. https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1
2017-04-20T22:50:12Z phoe: good night, #parens
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2017-04-20T22:54:48Z Reinisch: night phoe o/
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2017-04-21T03:44:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-21T03:45:31Z beach: p_l: I think Cleavir cold be used for other dynamic languages if that is what you mean.
2017-04-21T03:45:31Z presiden: \[T]/ beach
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2017-04-21T05:34:27Z BusFactor1: does anyone know how to tell woo where to find libuv.so on macOS?
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2017-04-21T05:45:13Z p_l: BusFactor1: you need to compile it yourself from source, or whatever third party packaging Mac users use
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2017-04-21T05:53:59Z BusFactor1: i've got it installed through macports
2017-04-21T05:54:21Z BusFactor1: it just doesn't seem to recognize how to find it using DYLD_LIBRARY_PATH so I thought there might be some trick
2017-04-21T05:54:32Z BusFactor1: using cffi or something
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2017-04-21T06:32:09Z shrdlu68: Good morning, people.
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2017-04-21T06:36:48Z beach: Hello shrdlu68.
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2017-04-21T07:33:12Z p_l: BusFactor1: I think there are ways to specify it explicitly in CFFI.. But also check if it is properly looking for .dyld file first
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2017-04-21T07:35:44Z phoe: Hey everyone.
2017-04-21T07:35:56Z ogamita: shrdlu68: because the openssl now is financed and has hired tens of programmers and testers?  I've not heard anything about it…
2017-04-21T07:36:13Z ogamita: Hi!
2017-04-21T07:41:48Z beach: Hello phoe.  I need to go away for an hour or so.  I'll let you know when I get back.
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2017-04-21T07:46:04Z phoe: beach: no problem.
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2017-04-21T07:54:06Z shrdlu68: ogamita: The mailing list is busy, and the list of online users is large. But I've rarely seen any activity there.
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2017-04-21T07:56:10Z ogamita: ah right, some projects work with mail-lists more than with irc…
2017-04-21T07:56:42Z ogamita: irc may be too distracting.
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2017-04-21T08:59:33Z beach: phoe: I am back.
2017-04-21T08:59:41Z phoe: beach: welcome back.
2017-04-21T08:59:58Z beach: Thanks.  So what about the LispOS specification?
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2017-04-21T09:15:36Z beach: phoe: OK, I'll ask here, since you seem to ignore your PMs.  Why is it hard to imagine techniques that will guarantee the integrity of an operating system in the presence of concurrency?  Every desktop and mainframe operating system does it.
2017-04-21T09:15:45Z phoe: beach: No no
2017-04-21T09:15:48Z phoe: I got the PMs.
2017-04-21T09:15:51Z phoe: Sorry, was doing a work thing.
2017-04-21T09:15:57Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2017-04-21T09:24:00Z shka: well, i am not in the topic
2017-04-21T09:24:22Z shka: but what i would want to see are CSP style processes
2017-04-21T09:25:38Z beach: shka: Why and where would you want to see that?
2017-04-21T09:27:35Z shka: i want to have same style of api for calling remote processeses and ones on the local machine because it would greatly simplify construction of distributed systems
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2017-04-21T09:27:41Z shka: beach: ^
2017-04-21T09:29:32Z shrdlu68: This is strange. A function returns 3 closures, I bind the first two using multiple-value-bind, dicarding the third. Someone is calling the third one.
2017-04-21T09:29:49Z beach: shrdlu68: Paste the code.
2017-04-21T09:30:14Z loke`: shrdlu68: Just show the stack trace when the call happens.
2017-04-21T09:31:09Z shrdlu68: beach: A moment.
2017-04-21T09:31:17Z shrdlu68: loke`: How do I do that?
2017-04-21T09:31:39Z beach: shrdlu68: You can put a (break) in the function being called.
2017-04-21T09:31:40Z shrdlu68: backtracing isn't giving much helpful info.
2017-04-21T09:31:43Z loke`: But a (BREAK) call in it?
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2017-04-21T09:32:14Z beach: shrdlu68: Normally, if you are in SLIME, you can then get the source code of the point of the call.
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2017-04-21T09:32:38Z beach: shrdlu68: Oh, but you need to use high DEBUG values by default.
2017-04-21T09:32:54Z beach: shrdlu68: I put this in my .sbclrc: (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (debug 3) (safety 3)))
2017-04-21T09:33:43Z mood_btf: Note that that doesn't guarantee permanent high debug values. For that, add (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3)
2017-04-21T09:34:11Z beach: I didn't know that.
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2017-04-21T09:34:20Z shrdlu68: Here: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E1H
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2017-04-21T09:35:24Z shrdlu68: It only happens in some situations, but that it happens at all is puzzling.
2017-04-21T09:35:25Z beach: shrdlu68: I think you have misunderstood something...
2017-04-21T09:35:29Z mood_btf: shrdlu68: The only form in the (values) is the single (with-slots ...), which returns the third lambda
2017-04-21T09:35:48Z beach: shrdlu68: WITH-SLOTS does not preserve multiple values.
2017-04-21T09:36:04Z beach: shrdlu68: It only returns the value of the last form in the body.
2017-04-21T09:36:06Z mood_btf: So the only lambda ever returned is the third one, and the first and second are ignored
2017-04-21T09:36:18Z shrdlu68: Gah! I see it!
2017-04-21T09:36:18Z beach: shrdlu68: So your VALUES will be given a single value.
2017-04-21T09:36:44Z shrdlu68: The third one. Someone hold me 'afore I punch myself.
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2017-04-21T09:37:46Z beach: shrdlu68: Unrelated, but still: you might want to use accessors instead of slot values directly, and use WITH-ACCESSORS instead of WITH-SLOTS.
2017-04-21T09:38:02Z shrdlu68: Why's that?
2017-04-21T09:38:28Z beach: shrdlu68: Because slot-value doesn't allow you to build a proper protocol.
2017-04-21T09:38:34Z beach: It goes directly to the slot.
2017-04-21T09:39:31Z beach: shrdlu68: If you use SLIME-INDENTATION, there is no need to put a newline after the LOOP keyword.  Your LOOP body will be indented properly then.
2017-04-21T09:39:32Z shrdlu68: I see. I'll do that, right now I'm trying to get this thing off the ground.
2017-04-21T09:40:01Z beach: Good luck.
2017-04-21T09:40:33Z beach: Also, no whitespace before ) or after (.
2017-04-21T09:40:41Z beach: (funcall handler))))
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2017-04-21T09:41:43Z shrdlu68: Yeah, I tend to do that while I'm creating the form and then clean it up after.
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2017-04-21T09:43:24Z shrdlu68: How exactly do I go about getting slime indentation? Do I need to have slime running?
2017-04-21T09:44:02Z beach: In your .emacs, you put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-tramp slime-asdf slime-indentation))
2017-04-21T09:44:21Z beach: Assuming you are using Emacs and SLIME.
2017-04-21T09:45:05Z shrdlu68: I am, I just don't like slime running, it opens too many buffers and I tend to be editing multiple files.
2017-04-21T09:47:08Z shrdlu68: Thanks, emac's indentation has forced me to adopt a few work-arounds, like putting a new-line immediately after the loop keyword.
2017-04-21T09:47:14Z beach: This is the first time I hear that "too many buffers" would be problematic.
2017-04-21T09:47:54Z shrdlu68: When I need a repl, I just M-x run-lisp.
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2017-04-21T09:48:40Z shrdlu68: It distrupts my work flow when there are open buffers I'm not actively using.
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2017-04-21T10:46:45Z filwisher: How do you include .a files when writing cffi bindings using cffi-grovel?
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2017-04-21T11:18:37Z shka: filwisher: not user about cffi-grovel, but .a is a static library
2017-04-21T11:18:43Z shka: you need dynamic library
2017-04-21T11:19:38Z shka: so first, you will need to make dynamic library
2017-04-21T11:19:52Z shka: if it is your own code, that shouldn't be a problem
2017-04-21T11:20:23Z shka: if not, not a problem as well, you will need to relink it
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2017-04-21T11:25:55Z filwisher: i.e once recompiled, with `cffi:define-foreign-library`
2017-04-21T11:26:01Z filwisher: ?
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2017-04-21T11:29:57Z shka: sorry, i don't use cffi that much
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2017-04-21T11:30:24Z shka: filwisher: and when i'm using, i'm kinda doing it manually, without extra tools like grovel
2017-04-21T11:31:17Z shka: anyway
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2017-04-21T11:31:32Z shka: filwisher: so you want to repack your .a to .so
2017-04-21T11:31:35Z shka: basicly
2017-04-21T11:32:02Z shka: you can find information about that with google
2017-04-21T11:32:45Z shka: then cffi:load-foreign-library (or something like that, i can't remember function name) should work
2017-04-21T11:32:53Z filwisher: I can recompile to .so but I'm unclear about integrating shared libraries with common lisp
2017-04-21T11:33:06Z shka: ah, that is actually quite easy
2017-04-21T11:33:12Z shka: gimme second
2017-04-21T11:33:20Z filwisher: Thank you shka
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2017-04-21T11:33:47Z shka: i'm not sure if asd is handling this, but what i do is to use this: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/load_002dforeign_002dlibrary.html
2017-04-21T11:34:07Z shka: second, i will show you my code
2017-04-21T11:34:39Z filwisher: OK great, this is really helpful
2017-04-21T11:35:45Z shka: (cffi:load-foreign-library (asdf:system-relative-pathname :overmind "lib/libqmlisp.so"))
2017-04-21T11:36:10Z shka: anyway, this is what i am doing in my lisp file
2017-04-21T11:36:13Z filwisher: Amazing, thanks!
2017-04-21T11:36:16Z shka: in package.lisp
2017-04-21T11:37:20Z shrdlu68: It seems to me ironclad's sha512 isn't right. Could someone try hashing something and compare it to sha512sum's output?
2017-04-21T11:38:29Z phoe: shrdlu68: checking
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2017-04-21T11:43:40Z shrdlu68: I just checked on a different machine with a different file and it matched.
2017-04-21T11:44:16Z shrdlu68: Let me get this file over to that machine.
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2017-04-21T11:48:37Z phoe: shrdlu68: matched
2017-04-21T11:49:08Z phoe: so, works on my machine
2017-04-21T11:49:19Z shrdlu68: Okay, let me experiment some more.
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2017-04-21T11:50:05Z phoe: Is there any kind of a library that portably provides thread-safe hashtables?
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2017-04-21T11:52:07Z shrdlu68: Matched on the other machine, same file that's troublesome on this ppc.
2017-04-21T11:52:26Z phoe: Troublesome on this ppc?
2017-04-21T11:52:30Z phoe: You mean PowerPC arch?
2017-04-21T11:52:35Z shrdlu68: I think I've had enough trouble with it, I'll stop using it.
2017-04-21T11:52:37Z shrdlu68: Yes.
2017-04-21T11:52:55Z phoe: what is PPC's endianness?
2017-04-21T11:53:02Z shrdlu68: Big
2017-04-21T11:53:18Z phoe: That's my first suspicion
2017-04-21T11:53:44Z shrdlu68: Should I report this to ironclad?
2017-04-21T11:53:49Z phoe: YES.
2017-04-21T11:53:51Z phoe: Absolutely yes.
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2017-04-21T11:54:15Z phoe: This is portable ANSI Common Lisp.
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2017-04-21T11:54:24Z shrdlu68: Ok. Let me check the other hashes.
2017-04-21T11:54:25Z phoe: This should not differ between implementations between architectures.
2017-04-21T11:54:37Z phoe: shrdlu68: what is your implementation?
2017-04-21T11:54:52Z phoe: Are there any other CL implementations for PowerPC?
2017-04-21T11:54:56Z phoe: Can you check on them?
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2017-04-21T11:55:23Z phoe: Also - give me the octet vector that you are working on, I will check it locally.
2017-04-21T11:55:27Z phoe: We need to pinpoint this.
2017-04-21T11:56:10Z phoe: I suggest #(113 119 101 114 116 121 117 105 111 112) which is "qwertyuiop".
2017-04-21T11:56:37Z phoe: On my machine, it sha512s to "6308d8f6a7ccc9f77e41be5331a52c71c0bb28ecbd4669b960d60dd505dfde9ddd7a30cd26bb308010b3819699daba7caeb791bf6a4153605fe56d1fd3d5df41"
2017-04-21T11:57:01Z shrdlu68: Curiosly, md5, sha1,sha224,sha256 all work.
2017-04-21T11:57:08Z shrdlu68: Let me check that.
2017-04-21T12:00:01Z shrdlu68: Matches yours using sha512sum, but ironclad's doesn't.
2017-04-21T12:00:51Z shrdlu68: It hashes to #(24 EA A7 FE 3F D0 53 80 93 E7 39 7E 92 42...AA C0 5C 3B)
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2017-04-21T12:01:15Z shaftoe: isn't ironclad "unsupported" now? there was a post on planet.lisp.org not long ago
2017-04-21T12:01:36Z shrdlu68: That's bad news.
2017-04-21T12:01:38Z shaftoe: which sucks because there's not much by way of alternative...
2017-04-21T12:02:02Z shaftoe: i dont think there's a maintained libsodium package
2017-04-21T12:02:07Z phoe: shaftoe: wait, where?
2017-04-21T12:02:08Z shaftoe: and no way i'm using openssl :P
2017-04-21T12:02:15Z shaftoe: uno momento
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2017-04-21T12:03:01Z shaftoe: http://www.method-combination.net/blog/archives/2017/03/07/nibbles-and-ironclad-releases.html
2017-04-21T12:03:06Z shrdlu68: Wait, they released a new version recently, and last time I opened an issue on github (hardly two weeks ago), I got a response.
2017-04-21T12:03:09Z shaftoe: This is also an appropriate time to announce that I will no longer be maintaining nibbles, ironclad, nor any of my other Common Lisp packages.
2017-04-21T12:03:14Z shaftoe: from above link
2017-04-21T12:03:22Z phoe: shaftoe: unmaintained, not unsupported
2017-04-21T12:03:29Z shaftoe: non comprende senor
2017-04-21T12:03:36Z shaftoe: what's the difference?
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2017-04-21T12:04:18Z phoe: that it currently lacks a maintainer
2017-04-21T12:04:21Z edgar-rft: shaftoe: it waits for *you* to become the new maintainer
2017-04-21T12:04:29Z shrdlu68: Well, who's the new maintainer?
2017-04-21T12:05:27Z phoe: https://github.com/glv2/ironclad shrdlu68
2017-04-21T12:05:40Z phoe: or so it seems from the fork graph
2017-04-21T12:05:52Z shrdlu68: The releases have been sparse over the years.
2017-04-21T12:06:09Z phoe: the last commit is 12 days ago, which is recently.
2017-04-21T12:06:17Z phoe: shrdlu68: file an issue there.
2017-04-21T12:06:27Z phoe: shrdlu68: also, what implementation are you using?
2017-04-21T12:06:30Z phoe: can you check on any other one?
2017-04-21T12:06:30Z shrdlu68: I am about to.
2017-04-21T12:06:36Z shrdlu68: SBCL
2017-04-21T12:06:49Z shrdlu68: I can check on ECL. Uno momento.
2017-04-21T12:06:57Z phoe: Yes please.
2017-04-21T12:07:28Z phoe: CCL is also powerpc capable.
2017-04-21T12:07:28Z phoe: http://ccl.clozure.com/
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2017-04-21T12:12:34Z shrdlu68: It matches on ECL.
2017-04-21T12:12:44Z shrdlu68: Hell, let me start a fresh sbcl repl.
2017-04-21T12:13:12Z shrdlu68: I tried to compile CCL on this machine, wasn't successful.
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2017-04-21T12:13:32Z phoe: Because this smells of SBCL/ppc bug now.
2017-04-21T12:15:54Z shrdlu68: Same result, so it can't have been a corrupted image or anything like that.
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2017-04-21T12:18:35Z phoe: shrdlu68: #sbcl
2017-04-21T12:18:59Z phoe: also, one more thing
2017-04-21T12:19:09Z phoe: try restricting the SBCL compiler policy
2017-04-21T12:19:42Z phoe: debug 3 and safety 3
2017-04-21T12:19:50Z phoe: and then recompile ironclad.
2017-04-21T12:19:57Z phoe: and try running sha512 again.
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2017-04-21T12:50:33Z chrnybo: An around-method modifies an argument, stores the rest of the arglist in REST.  How to splice the arguments stored in REST into call-next-method?
2017-04-21T12:52:03Z phoe: clhs call-next-method
2017-04-21T12:52:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm
2017-04-21T12:52:25Z phoe: (apply #'call-next-method rest)
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2017-04-21T12:52:33Z phoe: chrnybo: I think something like that
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2017-04-21T12:54:28Z chrnybo: Thanks!  I got confused by only quoting the call-next-method, which gave the runtime error "UNDEFINED-FUNCTION: CALL-NEXT-METHOD is called outside the body of a method.".
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2017-04-21T12:54:56Z chrnybo: Sharpsign-quoting made lispworks understand what I meant to do.
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2017-04-21T15:44:29Z Ukari: (funcall ((lambda (f) (lambda (&rest x) (apply f x))) (lambda (a &key x y z) (+ a x y z))) 5 :x 1 :y 2 :z 3)
2017-04-21T15:44:45Z Ukari: it seems that &rest can passing all the arguments ?
2017-04-21T15:45:28Z Bike: "can passing"?
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2017-04-21T15:46:51Z shka: Ukari: yes?
2017-04-21T15:47:24Z Ukari: i mean use a funtion to wrap another, so it need passing all arguments
2017-04-21T15:47:36Z shka: Ukari: well, i guess you just figured this out
2017-04-21T15:47:58Z shka: any specific question?
2017-04-21T15:48:17Z Ukari: no, just ensure
2017-04-21T15:48:34Z shka: well, it works exactly as you think it does
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2017-04-21T15:53:26Z jusss: (a b) is (a b . nil)    ((lambda (x) x) 3) how turn to dot-pair?
2017-04-21T15:53:49Z Bike: ((lambda (x) x) 3 . nil)?
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2017-04-21T15:55:12Z jusss: Bike: wow, ((lambda (x) x) 3 . nil) can run
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2017-04-21T15:56:44Z TMA: jusss: ((lambda . ((x . nil) . (x . nil))) . (3 . nil))
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2017-04-21T15:57:35Z jusss: TMA: wow, this can run too
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2017-04-21T15:57:49Z beach: Amazing!
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2017-04-21T15:58:29Z Ukari: (list 1 2) eql  (cons 1 (cons 2 nil))
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2017-04-21T16:00:01Z beach: Ukari: Not in general, no.  EQL can not be used to compare lists, other than for identity.
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2017-04-21T16:00:54Z jusss: ((lambda (x . nil) x . nil) 3 . nil)
2017-04-21T16:01:14Z Ukari: you are right, it seems should use equal
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2017-04-21T16:03:40Z jusss: and why this can't run in lisp-1?
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2017-04-21T16:04:04Z beach: jusss: What makes you think it can't?
2017-04-21T16:04:28Z jusss: beach: ((lambda (x) x) 3 . '())
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2017-04-21T16:04:46Z shka: jusss: lisp-1 == single namespace for variables and functions
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2017-04-21T16:05:09Z jusss: shka: beach , fine, I mean scheme
2017-04-21T16:05:41Z beach: jusss: What makes you think it won't run in Scheme?
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2017-04-21T16:05:59Z beach: jusss: Your last example is not equivalent to the previous one.
2017-04-21T16:06:15Z shka: so stuff like (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) (flet ((l (a) (elt l a))) (call-me-maybe l) (l 1)) is complete crap in lisp-1
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2017-04-21T16:06:31Z jusss: beach: what?
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2017-04-21T16:07:14Z beach: jusss: ((lambda (x) x) 3 . nil) is not the same as ((lambda (x) x) 3 . '())
2017-04-21T16:07:33Z phoe: ((lambda (x) x) 3 . nil) vs ((lambda (x) x) 3 . (quote nil))
2017-04-21T16:07:35Z shka: jusss: 3 . nil -> cons cell wirth first set to 3 and rest to nil
2017-04-21T16:07:45Z beach: jusss: But (lambda (x) x) 3 . nil) should work fine.
2017-04-21T16:07:59Z jusss: beach: but scheme don't have nil
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2017-04-21T16:08:37Z phoe: jusss: replace all nil with ()
2017-04-21T16:09:01Z jusss: phoe: aha, you're right
2017-04-21T16:09:15Z beach: jusss: Fine, () then.
2017-04-21T16:09:23Z beach: jusss: But not '()
2017-04-21T16:10:20Z jusss: ((lambda (x . ()) x . ()) 3 . ())  works!
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2017-04-21T16:17:15Z jusss: can we turn ((lambda ...) 3) into (lambda ...) form?
2017-04-21T16:17:34Z jusss: turn to
2017-04-21T16:17:57Z beach: jusss: Can you be more specific about what you want to do?
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2017-04-21T16:18:17Z beach: jusss: Is the "turning into" supposed to be done by a computer or by a human?
2017-04-21T16:18:35Z presiden: human compiler ftw!
2017-04-21T16:19:02Z beach: jusss: Furthermore, a "lambda form" is just data.  Perhaps you mean "a function"?  They are not the same.
2017-04-21T16:19:31Z jusss: beach: ((lambda (x) x) 3) turn to (lambda .. 3 . nil) just one brace
2017-04-21T16:19:49Z shka: jusss: sure, but why?
2017-04-21T16:19:56Z beach: jusss: Sure, remove the first parenthesis.
2017-04-21T16:20:09Z beach: It won't be the same thing of course.
2017-04-21T16:20:23Z shka: jusss: what exactly do you want to write?
2017-04-21T16:20:28Z jusss: shka: just do it for fun
2017-04-21T16:20:33Z beach: jusss: Oh, you want them to mean the same to READ?  No that can't be done.
2017-04-21T16:21:23Z beach: jusss: When READ has processed the first one, it is a list with the CAR being another list.  But when READ has processed the second one, it is a list with the CAR being the symbol LAMBDA.
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2017-04-21T16:22:20Z jusss: beach: yes, you're right
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2017-04-21T17:10:21Z shrdlu68: phoe: Your fix seems to have worked.
2017-04-21T17:10:31Z shrdlu68: Is there a split-string primitve in CL?
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2017-04-21T17:19:49Z jdz: shrdlu68: there is split-sequence in quicklisp, and cl-ppcre can also split strings (using regular expressions).
2017-04-21T17:20:13Z shrdlu68: So, no primitive.
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2017-04-21T17:21:27Z jdz: Not in standard library, yes.
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2017-04-21T17:21:56Z jdz: Also, there are "special forms" in CL, not primitives.
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2017-04-21T17:22:54Z shrdlu68: Picked it up somewhere.
2017-04-21T17:24:56Z pjb: also special forms can be implemented as macros… So not so primitive even.
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2017-04-21T17:30:12Z jdz: Not all special forms.
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2017-04-21T17:32:50Z jdz: And what I meant is that if there's anything "primitive" in CL, it's "special forms".
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2017-04-21T17:38:22Z presiden: question, what does the code snippet in this channel topic means. #1=(programmable . #1#)
2017-04-21T17:39:41Z whiteline: it's circular list notation
2017-04-21T17:40:54Z whiteline: it is the description of a circular list containing only the symbol PROGRAMMABLE, this list being a single cons cell where CAR points to PROGRAMMABLE and CDR points to the cons cell itself
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2017-04-21T17:44:17Z presiden: ah, I see.
2017-04-21T17:44:45Z presiden: also, what's the difference between #1 and #1# in the notation above?
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2017-04-21T17:46:29Z phoe: shrdlu68: good
2017-04-21T17:46:31Z phoe: let #sbcl now
2017-04-21T17:46:33Z phoe: know*
2017-04-21T17:49:43Z Bike: #1= means "define backreference 1 as". #1# means "insert backreference 1"
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2017-04-21T17:51:48Z presiden: owh, :D
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2017-04-21T17:54:12Z gingerale: It's terrible because it makes my brain go in loops.
2017-04-21T17:55:41Z phoe: gingerale: #1=(#1#.#1#)
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2017-04-21T17:56:22Z gingerale: Mean
2017-04-21T17:56:34Z gingerale: You're giving me a headache
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2017-04-21T17:59:03Z shka_: phoe: you are cruel person
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2017-04-21T18:06:35Z KZiemian: Hello World
2017-04-21T18:06:43Z KZiemian: I have a question
2017-04-21T18:07:03Z KZiemian: I try finaly to read whole PCL book
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2017-04-21T18:07:31Z phoe: KZiemian: hello
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2017-04-21T18:08:20Z KZiemian: and is one thing I can't get around in chapter 5
2017-04-21T18:08:32Z KZiemian: this is the chapter about functions
2017-04-21T18:08:40Z phoe: which part exactly?
2017-04-21T18:08:50Z KZiemian: phoe
2017-04-21T18:08:52Z KZiemian: :
2017-04-21T18:09:06Z KZiemian: when he introduce FUNCTION #'
2017-04-21T18:09:19Z phoe: the special operator FUNCTION
2017-04-21T18:09:24Z phoe: yes, what about it?
2017-04-21T18:09:57Z KZiemian: he wrote that this give you function object
2017-04-21T18:10:07Z phoe: yes, it does
2017-04-21T18:10:16Z KZiemian: and to ilustrat this he defined funtion polot
2017-04-21T18:10:21Z KZiemian: plot
2017-04-21T18:10:31Z KZiemian: (defun plot (fn min max step)   (loop for i from min to max by step do         (loop repeat (funcall fn i) do (format t "*"))         (format t "~%")))
2017-04-21T18:11:30Z KZiemian: this funtion run like this
2017-04-21T18:11:32Z KZiemian: (plot #'exp 0 4 1/2)
2017-04-21T18:11:40Z KZiemian: and ploting
2017-04-21T18:11:40Z phoe: KZiemian: yes, I can see it in http://gigamonkeys.com/book/functions.html
2017-04-21T18:11:54Z KZiemian: ploting "*"
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2017-04-21T18:12:55Z KZiemian: I understand that plot bind function object #'exp to pramameter fn and run it
2017-04-21T18:13:09Z KZiemian: but I try send only symbol
2017-04-21T18:13:16Z KZiemian: symbol 'exp
2017-04-21T18:13:27Z jdz: clhs funcall
2017-04-21T18:13:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_funcal.htm
2017-04-21T18:13:28Z KZiemian: (plot 'exp 0 4 1/2) this work to
2017-04-21T18:13:50Z jdz: KZiemian: check the link above: FUNCALL accepts a "function designator".
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2017-04-21T18:14:14Z KZiemian: jdz
2017-04-21T18:14:26Z KZiemian: jdz: thank now I start to understand
2017-04-21T18:14:44Z KZiemian: what is a good programing style in this situation
2017-04-21T18:14:57Z KZiemian: I presume that use #'exp
2017-04-21T18:14:58Z KZiemian: ?
2017-04-21T18:15:01Z phoe: in other words, you can put function objects in a FUNCALL call, and this function will be called. You can also put symbols in a FUNCALL call, and whatever function is bound to that symbol will be called then.
2017-04-21T18:15:09Z phoe: KZiemian: depends.
2017-04-21T18:15:25Z phoe: there is a subtle difference.
2017-04-21T18:15:36Z phoe: for standard functions you can use the #' notation, because you expect that the function will never change.
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2017-04-21T18:16:04Z phoe: but for functions that you actually expect to change as the program runs, such as some callbacks that you might modify, you might want to put a symbol there instead of a function object.
2017-04-21T18:16:30Z phoe: this way, the symbol will be resolved to a function each time the FUNCALL is executed, and it will take into account changes of the symbol's function definition.
2017-04-21T18:17:09Z phoe: so (defun foo () 3) (defun bar () (funcall 'foo)) (defun foo () 42) (bar)
2017-04-21T18:17:13Z phoe: will give you 42
2017-04-21T18:18:12Z phoe: ...wait, did I just mix it up
2017-04-21T18:18:28Z KZiemian: what mix up?
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2017-04-21T18:20:07Z phoe: I screwed up my explanation - using a #'foo instead of 'foo will give you 42 as well
2017-04-21T18:21:27Z KZiemian: phoe: I don't undestend why, but I think that I catch a distinction
2017-04-21T18:21:42Z jdz: The problems arise when the function objects are stored.
2017-04-21T18:21:55Z jdz: For caching or other purposes.
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2017-04-21T18:24:02Z shka_: beach: when SICL will be complete and ready for wide usage?
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2017-04-21T18:25:20Z beach: shka_: Not any time soon.
2017-04-21T18:25:31Z shka_: define soon
2017-04-21T18:25:46Z beach: Definitely not in the next year.
2017-04-21T18:26:17Z shka_: is that concrete syntax stuff required for SICL?
2017-04-21T18:26:53Z beach: "required" is a strong word.  It is something I want to do so as to make source tracking available and precise.
2017-04-21T18:27:00Z shka_: ok
2017-04-21T18:27:03Z beach: I am not in a rush to release this thing.
2017-04-21T18:27:20Z beach: I prefer to do things right, and to re-do things that I have done wrong.
2017-04-21T18:27:52Z beach: Since it is the first time something like this has been done, I am bound to make several design mistakes on the way.
2017-04-21T18:28:01Z shka_: yeah, sure, i was just wondering when first class envs will be common
2017-04-21T18:28:06Z beach: For instance, this is my third attempt at the sequence functions.
2017-04-21T18:28:26Z beach: Oh, I use those already in my bootstrapping procedure.
2017-04-21T18:28:45Z beach: But "common", I don't know.
2017-04-21T18:28:53Z beach: I don't see any other implementations going that way.
2017-04-21T18:29:08Z beach: Not that I care much.
2017-04-21T18:31:10Z shka_: anyway, idea is that i will be able to bootstrap and use SICL with sbcl even on my own?
2017-04-21T18:31:48Z beach: Oh, you want to use parts of SICL from SBCL?  That might be quicker.
2017-04-21T18:32:05Z shka_: large parts
2017-04-21T18:32:14Z shka_: for instance consyntax
2017-04-21T18:32:25Z beach: First-class global environments are tricky though.  For performance reasons, they must be part of the core system.  The compiler needs to know what to do.
2017-04-21T18:32:34Z shka_: i see
2017-04-21T18:32:49Z shka_: ok, no rush on my side anyway
2017-04-21T18:33:00Z beach: Maybe I'll try to set up a SICL environment inside SBCL.
2017-04-21T18:33:06Z shka_: no rush
2017-04-21T18:33:09Z beach: I mean, I already know how to do that.
2017-04-21T18:33:26Z shka_: i have more plans then time to realize it :D
2017-04-21T18:33:44Z shka_: i just wanted to figure out when i will be able to implement smalltalk style version control
2017-04-21T18:33:54Z beach: I see.
2017-04-21T18:34:01Z shka_: in semi-portable manner at least
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2017-04-21T18:34:41Z beach: I might make it easier to set up this SICL-inside-SBCL environment so that people can try it out.  But I have other things I need to work on too.
2017-04-21T18:34:54Z beach: shka_: I am off for tonight... joining my (admittedly small) family.
2017-04-21T18:35:02Z shka_: good night
2017-04-21T18:35:07Z shka_: thanks for answers
2017-04-21T18:35:13Z phoe: see you, beach
2017-04-21T18:35:21Z phoe: KZiemian: I screwed up - ignore me for now
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2017-04-21T18:35:32Z phoe: FUNCALL accepts both symbols and function objects.
2017-04-21T18:37:11Z phoe: ...I really dislike how CL:ASSOC and ALEXANDRIA:ASSOC-VALUE have their arguments swapped around
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2017-04-21T18:41:19Z shrdlu68: Has any attempt been made to fix the quirks in emacs indentation?
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2017-04-21T18:42:02Z shrdlu68: I mean by updating emacs code, for example to adopt the same indentation as slime does.
2017-04-21T18:42:55Z Ukari: my accx is a global fixnum
2017-04-21T18:43:06Z Ukari: but why i can't use (atomic-incf accx)
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2017-04-21T18:47:12Z shka_: Ukari: first of, there is no such thing as global variable in cl
2017-04-21T18:47:18Z shka_: secondly show us your code
2017-04-21T18:48:54Z Josh_2: There's no such thing as a global variable?
2017-04-21T18:48:56Z Ukari: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E2B
2017-04-21T18:49:08Z Josh_2: What's this all about then *Im-a-global-fish*
2017-04-21T18:49:29Z Ukari: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Atomic-Operations
2017-04-21T18:49:37Z shka_: Josh_2: it is dynamic scope variable
2017-04-21T18:49:48Z Josh_2: Ahh
2017-04-21T18:49:50Z Ukari: i see "a variable defined using defglobal with a proclaimed type of fixnum" in this document
2017-04-21T18:49:51Z shka_: most of the time
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2017-04-21T18:50:22Z shka_: right
2017-04-21T18:50:30Z shka_: sbcl has defglobal
2017-04-21T18:51:28Z phoe: I have realized that I can fix so many issues with SETF by simply replacing LET with SYMBOL-MACROLET
2017-04-21T18:52:46Z shka_: phoe: uh, why?
2017-04-21T18:53:50Z phoe: shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/344820
2017-04-21T18:53:54Z phoe: only the second one works as intended
2017-04-21T18:54:12Z shka_: Ukari: ok, you are doing it all work
2017-04-21T18:54:13Z pjb: phoe: (mapcar (function funcall) (list #'elt #'alexandria:assoc-value) '(#(a b c) ((a . "a") (b . "b") (c . "c"))) '(1 b)) #| --> (b "b") |#
2017-04-21T18:54:32Z pjb: phoe: you couldn't do that with elt and assoc, you'd need nth and assoc…
2017-04-21T18:55:09Z pjb: but nth doesn't work on vectors!
2017-04-21T18:55:10Z phoe: pjb: I completely don't get what your example is meant to mean
2017-04-21T18:55:50Z shka_: Ukari:
2017-04-21T18:55:51Z shka_: (defglobal acxx 5)
2017-04-21T18:55:53Z shka_: (declaim (type fixnum acxx))
2017-04-21T18:55:54Z shka_: (atomic-incf acxx)
2017-04-21T18:56:02Z shka_: no need for that function for instance
2017-04-21T18:56:05Z pjb: phoe: the point is that you have functions to find elements in collections, and some of them have the element as first argument, others have the collection as first argument.  If you want to use those function in an homogeneous way, it's bad, you need the arguments in the same order.
2017-04-21T18:57:34Z phoe: pjb: I see.
2017-04-21T18:57:41Z shka_: phoe: lenses
2017-04-21T18:57:45Z shka_: from racket
2017-04-21T18:57:48Z shka_: that's the way
2017-04-21T18:58:08Z Ukari: shka_, thank you, it looks like that i don't know things about declare and declaim so i went wrong
2017-04-21T18:58:12Z shka_: i even have half broken implementation that i really should fix finally
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2017-04-21T19:01:16Z shka_: phoe: what those assoc-value do?
2017-04-21T19:01:43Z pjb: Also, assoc returns an entry while assoc-value returns the value of the key-value pair in the a-list.
2017-04-21T19:01:58Z shka_: this is a function, right?
2017-04-21T19:02:11Z pjb: Of course, you also need a (hashtable-get table key) --> value function :-)
2017-04-21T19:02:14Z pjb: Yes.
2017-04-21T19:02:26Z pjb: There may also be a (setf assoc-value).
2017-04-21T19:02:35Z shka_: is better be
2017-04-21T19:02:41Z shka_: *it better be
2017-04-21T19:02:48Z phoe: there is
2017-04-21T19:02:52Z phoe: that's why I'm using it
2017-04-21T19:03:06Z pjb: at least, that's what com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.list:aget has.
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2017-04-21T19:04:00Z shka_: well, i like to think that your problem is using list to represent mutable state
2017-04-21T19:04:31Z phoe: no, it is not
2017-04-21T19:04:39Z shka_: it is
2017-04-21T19:04:43Z phoe: my problem is that in one case SETF alters the binding of the local variable
2017-04-21T19:05:05Z phoe: and in the other case SETF alters the binding inside the hashtable
2017-04-21T19:05:05Z shka_: thats what it is supposed to do
2017-04-21T19:05:21Z shka_: thats what it is supposed to do :-)
2017-04-21T19:05:30Z phoe: yes, exactly
2017-04-21T19:05:34Z phoe: but not what I want it to do.
2017-04-21T19:05:35Z phoe: :P
2017-04-21T19:06:50Z shka_: phoe: because there is no list
2017-04-21T19:07:07Z shka_: that's your issue here :P
2017-04-21T19:07:48Z shka_: your binding is not to list, it is to the cons cell
2017-04-21T19:08:21Z shka_: if you change your binding to the new cons cell, it will not change other bindings
2017-04-21T19:08:35Z phoe: yes, I got it.
2017-04-21T19:08:48Z shka_: you need to either box it or just use different data structure
2017-04-21T19:08:55Z shka_: what i like is that
2017-04-21T19:09:05Z shka_: https://github.com/TBRSS/serapeum/blob/master/hash-tables.lisp
2017-04-21T19:09:12Z shka_: check line 116
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2017-04-21T19:11:55Z shka_: or you can use my cl-lenses when i won't be ashamed to publish it :D
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2017-04-21T19:15:10Z KZiemian: thank you for help
2017-04-21T19:15:12Z KZiemian: I must go
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2017-04-21T19:15:26Z shka_: my planet neeeeeeeeds meeeeeeee
2017-04-21T19:15:28Z shka_: :D
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2017-04-21T19:40:12Z phoe: What is the easiest way to fetch the return value from a BT thread that I spawn?
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2017-04-21T19:42:45Z pjb: bt:join
2017-04-21T19:43:10Z pjb: bt:join-thread actually
2017-04-21T19:43:37Z pjb: It will block if the thread is not terminated.
2017-04-21T19:43:47Z phoe: pjb: the docstring does not say anything about return values.
2017-04-21T19:44:05Z pjb: Perhaps it doesn't work in all implementations?
2017-04-21T19:44:12Z pjb: This is how pthreads work.
2017-04-21T19:44:15Z phoe: All it says is, "Wait until THREAD terminates. If THREAD has already terminated, return immediately."
2017-04-21T19:44:36Z pjb: In general, I prefer to post the result to a mailbox.
2017-04-21T19:44:55Z pjb: threads can only return a status code…
2017-04-21T19:47:54Z shka_: phoe: threads don't return anything
2017-04-21T19:48:16Z shka_: that's sync queues, mailboxes, futures are for
2017-04-21T19:48:32Z shka_: and on lower level: side effect guarded by CV
2017-04-21T19:48:53Z shka_: that's about posix
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2017-04-21T19:51:03Z shka_: i had code for you that essentially spawns thread, executes function on it and returns value (blocks if it is not ready yet)
2017-04-21T19:51:16Z shka_: you can just use it
2017-04-21T19:51:37Z shka_: phoe: ^
2017-04-21T19:51:49Z phoe: shka_: do you still have it? I lost the paste
2017-04-21T19:52:01Z shka_: eeeh, let me write it again
2017-04-21T19:52:09Z shka_: 5 minutes please
2017-04-21T19:52:09Z phoe: is it about wrapping the make-thread call in a single LET?
2017-04-21T19:52:17Z shka_: pretty much yes
2017-04-21T19:52:20Z phoe: and then making SETF on that local variable inside the thread?
2017-04-21T19:52:44Z shka_: yes, but you still need synchronization
2017-04-21T19:52:49Z phoe: join-thread
2017-04-21T19:52:51Z shka_: promise makes the most sense
2017-04-21T19:52:52Z phoe: and return the value
2017-04-21T19:52:58Z shka_: no? why
2017-04-21T19:53:11Z shka_: why would you spawn thread just to wait for it to finish?!
2017-04-21T19:53:11Z phoe: oh wait, correct
2017-04-21T19:53:15Z phoe: this is silly
2017-04-21T19:53:23Z shka_: you need CV
2017-04-21T19:53:28Z shka_: or higher level stuff
2017-04-21T19:53:32Z shka_: like promise
2017-04-21T19:53:46Z shka_: give me a second i write code and explain everything
2017-04-21T19:53:48Z phoe: this is silly and should be abstracted away in join-thread
2017-04-21T19:53:53Z phoe: shka_: no no, it's okay
2017-04-21T19:54:25Z phoe: this should actually be abstracted away by the implementation
2017-04-21T19:54:38Z phoe: that all values returned by the function inside the thread are preserved
2017-04-21T19:54:44Z phoe: and can be retrieved
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2017-04-21T19:56:59Z shka_: phoe: nah, join-thread is just system call
2017-04-21T19:57:48Z shka_: phoe: https://pastebin.com/PLVWwLVw
2017-04-21T19:57:50Z shka_: here it is
2017-04-21T19:58:35Z shka_: phoe: join-thread follows posix semantics and posix join-thread will just return status
2017-04-21T19:58:44Z shka_: that's one thing
2017-04-21T19:58:58Z shka_: another thing is that abstracting this away is trivial
2017-04-21T19:59:15Z phoe: and from what I see, SBCL, CCL, ECL and ABCL all return the return values of the function
2017-04-21T19:59:30Z phoe: when BT:JOIN-THREAD is invoked
2017-04-21T19:59:39Z phoe: so join-thread is *not* just a system call in this case.
2017-04-21T19:59:48Z shka_: well, let's check what bt doc say
2017-04-21T19:59:53Z phoe: I've checked
2017-04-21T19:59:59Z phoe: it says nothing about the return values
2017-04-21T20:00:06Z shka_: so it is undefined…
2017-04-21T20:00:16Z pjb: (bt:join-thread (bt:make-thread (lambda () (sleep 4) 42))) #| --> 42 |#
2017-04-21T20:00:22Z phoe: but perhaps it should.
2017-04-21T20:00:28Z shka_: not really
2017-04-21T20:00:42Z phoe: not in join-thread, but some new function like thread-value perhaps.
2017-04-21T20:00:48Z pjb: (bt:join-thread (bt:make-thread (lambda () (sleep 4) 'foo))) #| --> foo |# Thanks ccl.
2017-04-21T20:00:55Z shka_: but what for?
2017-04-21T20:01:05Z phoe: shka_: because it's God damn simple and obvious
2017-04-21T20:01:05Z pjb:  normally, it's the status code.
2017-04-21T20:01:08Z phoe: I have some thread objects
2017-04-21T20:01:12Z phoe: that are natural promises
2017-04-21T20:01:18Z shka_: phoe: no!
2017-04-21T20:01:19Z phoe: when they finish, I can poke them for their return values
2017-04-21T20:01:25Z shka_: thread is not promise
2017-04-21T20:01:27Z shka_: not at all
2017-04-21T20:01:41Z shka_: that's one thing
2017-04-21T20:01:44Z phoe: shka_: well, the most popular CL implementations treat it that way.
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2017-04-21T20:02:02Z Bike: it's not totally simple, it means thread objects have a slot for them to store values in. which i guess is like a promise.
2017-04-21T20:02:14Z shka_: 1+
2017-04-21T20:02:27Z shka_: phoe: this is not documented and can change
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2017-04-21T20:02:41Z phoe: and the Lisp thread objects in implementations I've checked have this behaviour.
2017-04-21T20:02:49Z shka_: as Bike pointed out, there is any extra work to make it behave this way
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2017-04-21T20:04:11Z phoe: it's time to update bordeaux-threads.
2017-04-21T20:04:24Z shka_: …
2017-04-21T20:04:39Z shka_: phoe: this should not be part of BT
2017-04-21T20:04:44Z phoe: shka_: yes, it should.
2017-04-21T20:04:48Z shka_: argument
2017-04-21T20:05:13Z phoe: if implementations provide a way to fetch return values from threads, then this should be leveraged in a compatibility library.
2017-04-21T20:05:29Z phoe: and so far, four commonly used CL implementations behave exactly as I outlined.
2017-04-21T20:05:50Z shka_: there is no point in expecting it to behave this way
2017-04-21T20:05:52Z shka_: really
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2017-04-21T20:06:12Z phoe: yes, there is - programmer convenience.
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2017-04-21T20:06:54Z phoe: the moment a thread becomes a promise, the programmer has one abstraction less to think of.
2017-04-21T20:07:06Z shka_: this is fundamental, low level library for interacting with OS, not abstraction layer
2017-04-21T20:07:23Z phoe: no, it is not a fundamental, low level library for interacting with OS
2017-04-21T20:07:24Z shka_: that's the difference here
2017-04-21T20:07:53Z shka_: strace disagrees :P
2017-04-21T20:07:54Z phoe: because what you say is, BT is a fundamental, *low-level* library for interacting with OS that accidentally makes use of *high-level* functionality offered by implementations
2017-04-21T20:08:24Z shka_: implementations are not prohibited to do so
2017-04-21T20:08:40Z phoe: good, then BT on some implementations is high-level and I am free to leverage that fact.
2017-04-21T20:09:05Z phoe: and perhaps state that the implementation was able to fetch a return value through returning a secondary T/NIL value.
2017-04-21T20:09:28Z phoe: T if the value was returned from the thread, NIL if it's not sure.
2017-04-21T20:09:48Z shka_: well
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2017-04-21T20:10:08Z shka_: phoe: you won't even be sure what actually was returned by the thread
2017-04-21T20:10:13Z shka_: but go on :P
2017-04-21T20:10:21Z phoe: shka_: I will, the moment I actually read what a given implementation does
2017-04-21T20:10:46Z phoe: if an implementation's join-thread actually makes sure to return the thread's value, then I'm free to use that fact
2017-04-21T20:10:48Z shka_: well, if you are using sbcl, there is return-from-thread
2017-04-21T20:10:54Z phoe: so it's a contract.
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2017-04-21T20:12:22Z shka_: phoe: but there is no return-from-thread in ccl
2017-04-21T20:12:32Z phoe: shka_: but CCL returns the correct value.
2017-04-21T20:12:45Z shka_: heh
2017-04-21T20:12:50Z shka_: whatever
2017-04-21T20:13:44Z phoe: https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/blob/003917cbbce90b7a7b5fa4bf90e9fe424e5637e9/level-1/l1-processes.lisp#L739
2017-04-21T20:14:10Z aeth: Oh, wait, it doesn't have to work that way?
2017-04-21T20:14:11Z aeth: Oops.
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2017-04-21T20:14:15Z phoe: aeth: haha
2017-04-21T20:14:24Z shka_: it does not have to
2017-04-21T20:14:37Z aeth: I rely on this in one of my unpublished libraries that I wrote to help me with Project Euler code, with something that could only go under 1 sec when parallelized
2017-04-21T20:14:53Z aeth: (It really is painful to do anything in more than a second)
2017-04-21T20:15:14Z aeth: iirc
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2017-04-21T20:16:08Z phoe: minion: memo for sionescu: I need to work on a JOIN-THREAD-VALUE function that returns two values: the value of JOIN-THREAD and T/NIL depending on whether BT determines that the value of JOIN-THREAD is guaranteed by the implementation to be the return value of the function the thread was called with.
2017-04-21T20:16:08Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell sionescu when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-04-21T20:17:19Z francogrex: hi, is anyone here using Linj (either for serious work or for fun)?
2017-04-21T20:17:32Z phoe: aeth: so far it seems that SBCL, CCL, ECL and ABCL all do The Right Thing™.
2017-04-21T20:17:39Z aeth: Hmm... Run something in one second. Oh the good old days. What's funny is that I then went on lowered my impatience standards. Now I have to do *everything* in under 1/60 seconds or precompute it ahead of time.
2017-04-21T20:17:52Z aeth: s/went on lowered/went on and lowered/
2017-04-21T20:19:43Z aeth: Both SBCL and CCL have impressed me with their performance. (I mostly used scripting languages before CL, though.)
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2017-04-21T20:23:55Z phoe: I want to iterate over a list using LOOP and do something extra on every 5th element. What is the simplest way of achieving that?
2017-04-21T20:24:27Z phoe: (loop for elt in list for x from 0 do (...) if (= x 5) do (extra) (setf x 0))?
2017-04-21T20:24:38Z pjb: (loop for item in list for i from 0 do (something item) when (zerop (mod i 5)) do (something-extra item))
2017-04-21T20:24:51Z aeth: interesting, I didn't know you could do that
2017-04-21T20:25:20Z phoe: thanks
2017-04-21T20:25:28Z aeth: I do something similar and I have with counter = -1 do (incf counter) instead of for i from -1
2017-04-21T20:25:32Z pjb: Now add the test for multiples of 3 in the loop, and you have fizzbuzz :-)
2017-04-21T20:26:04Z pjb: Yes, depends on whether you want to do the extra on the 0th 5th 10th, … or on the   4th 9th 14th …
2017-04-21T20:26:22Z aeth: Idk why but I assumed two fors would have an inner loop
2017-04-21T20:26:59Z pjb: you can write for … as …  instead of for … for … to make it cleare.
2017-04-21T20:27:00Z pjb: r
2017-04-21T20:27:02Z phoe: aeth: no, they're progressing together
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2017-04-21T20:27:16Z phoe: just like with DO
2017-04-21T20:28:54Z aeth: right, so it's "for i from 0" instead of "with i = -1 do (incf i)", saves some complexity
2017-04-21T20:29:11Z aeth: phoe: ah, makes sense.
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2017-04-21T20:39:43Z _death: they're more like DO*... for x ... and y ... would be DO-ish
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2017-04-21T20:40:31Z aeth: They're not like do because do is understandable. :-p
2017-04-21T20:41:07Z aeth: DO is just syntactic sugar around let, tagbody/go, and psetf (or setf if do*) iirc
2017-04-21T20:41:42Z aeth: And because of this, it has an implicit tagbody (a bit of a leaky abstraction).
2017-04-21T20:43:39Z phoe: aeth:
2017-04-21T20:43:40Z phoe: (do () (t) loop for x = 42 and foo being equal to the value of (+ 4 20) finally return nil)
2017-04-21T20:43:48Z phoe: ;=> NIL
2017-04-21T20:43:55Z _death: aeth: the other day I implemented multiple-value DO (reading On Lisp again nowadays) before reading PG's attempt.. my style is quite different, but there is at least one nontrivial point, which PG ignored and mine implements poorly
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2017-04-21T20:48:30Z aeth: _death: what's the non-trivial part?
2017-04-21T20:49:29Z _death: good support for declarations.. LOCALLY is a hack
2017-04-21T20:50:01Z _death: you need to write a multiple-value-let to make mvdo expansion trivial
2017-04-21T20:50:15Z aeth: I should have guessed.
2017-04-21T20:50:27Z aeth: I have probably written more declarations in the past year than everyone here combined :-p
2017-04-21T20:50:33Z aeth: At least, that's my impression.
2017-04-21T20:50:42Z aeth: Everyone always comments on how... typed my Common Lisp is.
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2017-04-21T20:53:21Z aeth: I'm considering writing a define-function that uses defmethod style syntax like e.g. (define-function foo ((x fixnum) y (z single-float)) (+ x y z)) but the issue would be how to handle &optional and &rest. Iirc, defmethod's solution is to not handle them.
2017-04-21T20:53:54Z Bike: in defmethod it's not just because of syntax
2017-04-21T20:53:58Z _death: think opinions on declarations degree-of-use vary
2017-04-21T20:54:38Z _death: aeth: this reminds me of define-strict-function
2017-04-21T20:57:12Z aeth: Oh, &optional, &rest, and &keyword
2017-04-21T20:58:28Z aeth: &rest would be trickier. Might not be possible. Can you even type a list? I had to make sure a &rest was all of one type once, and I got around that by essentially (map nil (lambda (x) (check-type x foo-type)) rest-args)
2017-04-21T20:58:39Z aeth: I would probably just not treat &rest specially
2017-04-21T20:58:45Z phoe: you cannot really type a list in CL
2017-04-21T20:58:53Z phoe: there was a ELS2016 paper by Jim Newton on that
2017-04-21T20:58:58Z phoe: where he had some work on that
2017-04-21T20:59:07Z _death: you can always use SATISFIES :)
2017-04-21T20:59:08Z Bike: in function types, &rest indicates the type of the elements.
2017-04-21T20:59:15Z phoe: ^
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2017-04-21T20:59:47Z Bike: so if your define-function just defines the function type there ya go.
2017-04-21T21:00:07Z pjb: (defstruct typed-list type list) (defun push-typed-list (x l) (etypecheck x ((typed-list-type l) (push x (typed-list-list l))))) (defun pop-typed-list (l) (pop (typed-list-list l)))
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2017-04-21T21:00:12Z pjb: instant typed list!
2017-04-21T21:01:01Z aeth: pjb: like with lazy lists and a few other things, built-in support would be much better than building it.
2017-04-21T21:01:51Z aeth: And, imo, queues. I use a struct for vector queues, but it is a bit strange that queues aren't supported in vectors or lists when stacks are supported in both.
2017-04-21T21:03:09Z Bike: stacks are easier.
2017-04-21T21:03:38Z aeth: For fixed-sized vectors, you just need two fill pointers instead of one.
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2017-04-21T21:04:00Z aeth: For linked lists, adjustable-sized queues are trivial.
2017-04-21T21:04:29Z aeth: Adjustable vector queues would be tricky.
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2017-04-21T21:05:28Z Bike: how is it trivial with linked lists?
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2017-04-21T21:06:33Z aeth: Oh, you're right, it's trivial if you're writing them with lists, but not trivial to add to all lists, unless you want to increase overhead of lists by tracking the last cons.
2017-04-21T21:06:34Z pjb: Well, this is the fundamental criticism of Common Lisp: it freezes the implementations (theorically), so you cannot easily add this kind of stuff.  Now on the other hand, we're using open source implementations, so you can always add those extensions.
2017-04-21T21:07:00Z Bike: aeth: you need double linking to move the endpoint back.
2017-04-21T21:07:07Z pjb: Notice also that clisp can be compiled with the option of a 3-slot cons cell, and you could use this third slot to store a type for the car…
2017-04-21T21:07:40Z pjb: (sublists need to be typed too, right?)
2017-04-21T21:08:20Z aeth: pjb: Imo, CL with a robust set of collections built into the language would be amazing. Immutable sequences, lazy lists, typed conses, etc.
2017-04-21T21:08:49Z Bike: the heck would be the point of storing the type of the car
2017-04-21T21:08:52Z aeth: Maybe even typed hash-tables...
2017-04-21T21:09:47Z aeth: The two things that CL really shows its age on imo are FP and types.
2017-04-21T21:10:05Z pjb: aeth: hack them into your favorite implementation! :-)
2017-04-21T21:10:52Z aeth: pjb: If someone could get some optional extensions into SBCL, CCL, and ECL (and maybe some up and coming ones like Clasp and SICL), then someone could get a de facto standard going.
2017-04-21T21:11:06Z aeth: That would probably be the next best thing to actually updating the CL standard.
2017-04-21T21:11:25Z _death: there are many ways in which it shows its age.. some are desirable, others less.. different people disagree on what falls where
2017-04-21T21:11:31Z pjb: But then also, CL was designed after the Internet, and even after GNU; it's harder, in the context of easily shared software sources over the Internet, to deploy your own extensions in your local implementation: now it may become incompatible with shared software!
2017-04-21T21:12:14Z pjb: aeth: of course, (and let's remember the AI winter occured at that time too), as long as you have enough resources to implement your extensions in a few implementations.
2017-04-21T21:12:41Z aeth: pjb: Right, but if you get extensions into the major FOSS implementations, and come up with a portability library, then within 5 years or so you'll probably be able to actually use those extensions. So the Internet slows progress here, but doesn't prevent it.
2017-04-21T21:13:06Z aeth: I say 5 or so years because of slow upgrading distros like Debian.
2017-04-21T21:13:27Z pjb: Now, you just need to design nice extensions :-)
2017-04-21T21:13:43Z pjb: notice that extensible sequences implemented in sbcl still don't exist in the other implementations.
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2017-04-21T21:14:17Z aeth: Extensions need to be (1) designed, (2) agreed upon, (3) implemented in at least 3 major FOSS implementations, (4) have their quirks wrapped over via a portability library, (5) and then people need to update to the latest version
2017-04-21T21:14:42Z aeth: I say 3, but even something just in SBCL and CCL could possibly take off.
2017-04-21T21:15:46Z pjb: No, I'd say you need almost all implementations.  Again, extensible sequences in sbcl only exist in sbcl.  Relative package names only exist in allegro (I've got a conforming implementation in cesarum).
2017-04-21T21:16:20Z pjb: What I mean, is that we're underpowered to integrate them enough implementation for them to become "standard".
2017-04-21T21:16:28Z Bike: abcl has sequences actually
2017-04-21T21:16:34Z pjb: Good.
2017-04-21T21:16:38Z _death: aeth: 2 and 5 are possible consequence, not action points
2017-04-21T21:16:52Z Bike: for a direct reason though, to suppot some java thing
2017-04-21T21:16:54Z pjb: But go ahead! It's only a matter of hard work.
2017-04-21T21:17:17Z pjb: After all, we do have Gray Streams.
2017-04-21T21:17:19Z aeth: pjb: I disagree. I think if you got the code in SBCL, CCL, and ECL, you probably have enough support to just assume it's going to be there. Other implementations can then add the features or not be able to use libraries that depend on those features.
2017-04-21T21:17:42Z aeth: That's not "almost all", it's less than half, but it's probably a majority of FOSS-implementation users.
2017-04-21T21:17:51Z _death: pjb: and MOP
2017-04-21T21:17:58Z pjb: Yes.
2017-04-21T21:18:11Z pjb: miraculously, I would say :-)
2017-04-21T21:18:34Z _death: pjb: and Gray streams even lacks STREAM-FILE-LENGTH :(
2017-04-21T21:18:46Z pjb: oops.
2017-04-21T21:19:24Z pjb: on the other hand, you can call pathname on a file-stream, so you can get its length by other ways.
2017-04-21T21:19:56Z _death: I think it was my first sbcl patch.. though I've not used it since I played with Gray streams
2017-04-21T21:20:00Z pjb: But yes, you could want to implement a file-stream with gray streams.
2017-04-21T21:20:47Z aeth: pjb: I think the big issues are how you could extend the type system and collections in a way that implementations will agree on and how to get that into enough major FOSS implementations.
2017-04-21T21:21:26Z aeth: In the long run, I think those are existential threats to CL. It wouldn't take that much for people to switch to other Lisps or Schemes that *do* have types and collections that are much better.
2017-04-21T21:21:41Z aeth: One of the main reasons I am using CL over Scheme is because of its rich (relative to Scheme) way of handling collections.
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2017-04-21T21:23:39Z Posterdati: hi
2017-04-21T21:23:53Z aeth: There are a lot of collections missing from CL or only available in CL without being able to guarantee the type of the elements. And none (afaik) are immutable and FP-friendly (although I think literals are treated as immutable like #() and '() and "").
2017-04-21T21:24:18Z phoe: hey Posterdati
2017-04-21T21:24:44Z Posterdati: I've got a problem with sbcl 1.3.16 quickloading iolib: OPERATION instances must only be created through MAKE-OPERATION
2017-04-21T21:24:51Z pjb: But then, I just consider CL as a kernel language, and implement whatever I want over it…
2017-04-21T21:25:55Z phoe: Posterdati: have you cleared FASL cache?
2017-04-21T21:26:00Z phoe: (routine question)
2017-04-21T21:26:04Z aeth: pjb: I mostly agree, but there are certain things that can only be (portably) efficiently implemented (at least in a language like CL) by the implementation.
2017-04-21T21:26:12Z Posterdati: phoe: yes
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2017-04-21T21:27:01Z aeth: pjb: Two solutions are to implement them in the language implementations themselves or to portably provide a way to implement them efficiently. The proper solution is probably a mix of both.
2017-04-21T21:27:13Z phoe: Posterdati: I can reproduce that on 1.3.14
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2017-04-21T21:27:56Z Posterdati: phoe: then?
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2017-04-21T21:29:12Z phoe: Posterdati: it's time to post at https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/issues
2017-04-21T21:29:51Z Posterdati: phoe: ok, no time for that]
2017-04-21T21:30:52Z phoe: Posterdati: what is your ASDF version?
2017-04-21T21:30:55Z phoe: (asdf:asdf-version)
2017-04-21T21:31:17Z Posterdati: 3.1.5
2017-04-21T21:31:35Z _death: aeth: this reminds me of tcr's named-readtables.. he wanted a with-readtable-iterator operator.. I ended implementing it for clisp (some .d code, heh).. so you can start learning about your implementation by making small changes like that
2017-04-21T21:32:00Z phoe: Posterdati: https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/issues/44
2017-04-21T21:32:50Z phoe: no time for that? took me three minutes
2017-04-21T21:33:16Z Posterdati: I have to make it work for tomorrow :(
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2017-04-21T21:35:28Z phoe: Posterdati: oh snap
2017-04-21T21:35:31Z phoe: huh, let's see
2017-04-21T21:36:31Z Posterdati: phoe: I installed asdf 3.2.1 and got same error
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2017-04-21T21:38:49Z phoe: Inside the SLIME debugger, how can I go to the source location that signaled an error?
2017-04-21T21:40:12Z phoe: M-. on a frame, found it
2017-04-21T21:40:48Z pjb:  v
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2017-04-21T21:43:56Z phoe: God damn
2017-04-21T21:44:04Z phoe: Posterdati: I swear that I've already seen this error somewhere
2017-04-21T21:44:30Z Posterdati: ecl seems to work
2017-04-21T21:44:57Z Posterdati: no
2017-04-21T21:45:05Z Posterdati: it does not work too
2017-04-21T21:45:15Z Posterdati: is it something related to external libs?
2017-04-21T21:45:28Z pjb: It's an evolution of asdf.
2017-04-21T21:45:31Z phoe: Posterdati: I found the culprit
2017-04-21T21:45:43Z phoe: src/grovel/asdf.lisp, seemingly
2017-04-21T21:45:56Z phoe: (make-instance 'asdf:cl-source-file ...) errors
2017-04-21T21:46:05Z phoe: because it's not how current ASDF operations are supposed to be created
2017-04-21T21:46:13Z phoe: this needs a patch and I wonder if I can make a patch quick enough
2017-04-21T21:47:50Z Posterdati: :(
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2017-04-21T21:48:29Z phoe: HAHAHAHA
2017-04-21T21:48:30Z phoe: Posterdati: I got it
2017-04-21T21:48:48Z phoe: lines 85 and 92 of /src/grovel/asdf.lisp
2017-04-21T21:48:54Z phoe: change make-instance to asdf:make-operation
2017-04-21T21:48:54Z phoe: compile
2017-04-21T21:49:24Z phoe: ...actually
2017-04-21T21:49:28Z phoe: Posterdati: when have you updated your dists?
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2017-04-21T21:49:52Z phoe: look at https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/blob/master/src/grovel/asdf.lisp <- the last commit from Fare actually fixes this
2017-04-21T21:50:03Z phoe: and it's from Nov 2016, so a good half a year ago
2017-04-21T21:50:29Z phoe: (ql:update-all-dists) first
2017-04-21T21:50:40Z phoe: no, wait a second
2017-04-21T21:50:49Z phoe: it's the quicklisp version that is screwedu p.
2017-04-21T21:52:06Z phoe: I will check in a moment if the recentmost QL version has this bug
2017-04-21T21:52:34Z phoe: yes, it does.
2017-04-21T21:52:58Z phoe: XachX: we seemingly need to update iolib to take an ASDF patch into account. https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/commit/63ebc989219cd257511caeb7c8e9a067179be39f
2017-04-21T21:53:25Z phoe: Posterdati: basically - pull the github master instead of the quicklisp version and it should work, or apply my patch
2017-04-21T21:54:01Z Posterdati: do you mean iolib?
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2017-04-21T21:55:20Z phoe: Yes.
2017-04-21T21:55:54Z phoe: but my patch is exactly the patch that Fare did to that file up there
2017-04-21T22:01:41Z Posterdati: the github version did not work either
2017-04-21T22:03:26Z phoe: Posterdati: guh
2017-04-21T22:03:29Z phoe: what's the error?
2017-04-21T22:03:38Z Posterdati: same
2017-04-21T22:03:39Z phoe: are you sure you're loading it and not the QL version?
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2017-04-21T22:04:42Z phoe: I have pulled iolib into ~/quicklisp/local-projects and it loaded fine
2017-04-21T22:07:19Z phoe: s/pulled/cloned/
2017-04-21T22:07:37Z Posterdati: phoe: component "iolib/syscalls" not found
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2017-04-21T22:09:36Z phoe: Posterdati: any other errors in *inferior-lisp* or REPL?
2017-04-21T22:09:41Z phoe: errors, messages?
2017-04-21T22:09:45Z Posterdati: no
2017-04-21T22:10:17Z phoe: give me the full stacktrace on paste.lisp.org
2017-04-21T22:10:43Z gendl: Hi, does anyone happen to know where would be listed the UTF-8 external-format designator for various CLs? Or is there a library which abstracts this?
2017-04-21T22:10:55Z Posterdati: I pulled it in quicklisp/local-projects, but it downloaded one in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software
2017-04-21T22:11:08Z phoe: Posterdati: it should nonetheless prefer the one in local-projects
2017-04-21T22:11:15Z phoe: oh, right
2017-04-21T22:11:15Z gendl: for example in Allegro we use:  :external-format :utf8-base
2017-04-21T22:11:24Z phoe: Posterdati: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp
2017-04-21T22:11:35Z gendl: but I think that :utf8-base name is allegro-specific, it would be different in different CLs...
2017-04-21T22:11:36Z phoe: or otherwise force ASDF to reregister packages
2017-04-21T22:11:54Z phoe: gendl: flexi-streams has some external formats I think, either it or babel
2017-04-21T22:12:06Z gendl: phoe: thx.
2017-04-21T22:13:10Z Posterdati: phoe: worked!
2017-04-21T22:13:19Z Posterdati: phoe: thanks
2017-04-21T22:13:35Z phoe: Posterdati: <3
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2017-04-21T22:23:47Z phoe: Posterdati: hope you make it in time
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2017-04-21T22:27:32Z Posterdati: phoe: yes
2017-04-21T22:28:14Z Posterdati: phoe: but now I'm facing another problem... The software I written it was on a ci20 board... I rebooted it and the UBIFS was corrupted... :(
2017-04-21T22:28:26Z phoe: what's ci20 and what's UBIFS!?
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2017-04-21T22:31:08Z Posterdati: phoe: http://elinux.org/MIPS_Creator_CI20
2017-04-21T22:31:49Z phoe: I sadly have no competences to help you with this one. ;_;
2017-04-21T22:33:26Z Posterdati: UBIFS is a fs for flash memories
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2017-04-21T22:34:57Z phoe: it should have some sort of fsck then
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2017-04-21T22:37:32Z Posterdati: phoe: yes, but not recovery media to boot from :(
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2017-04-21T22:42:04Z phoe: Posterdati: ouch
2017-04-21T22:43:03Z phoe: I can't help you with this, sadly.
2017-04-21T22:43:08Z phoe drops asleep
2017-04-21T22:43:10Z phoe: night, #parens
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2017-04-21T22:44:17Z phoe: a nightly reminder that we have three tasks posted on the Lisp Guild page at https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1 - if anyone wants to post something simple and defined that needs to be done, or if anyone wants to grab a task in order to gain some experience with Lisp on real-life code, feel free to click.
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2017-04-21T22:58:15Z Bike: i had no idea github had that interface
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2017-04-21T23:03:58Z presiden: TODO?
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2017-04-21T23:07:50Z azzamsa: thank you so much for this, Sir Froggey
2017-04-21T23:07:50Z azzamsa: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano
2017-04-21T23:07:56Z azzamsa: thank you
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2017-04-21T23:56:07Z gigamonkey: Is there somewhere that explains SBCL's disassemble output?
2017-04-21T23:56:16Z gigamonkey: Quick googling hasn't turned anything up.
2017-04-21T23:56:45Z gigamonkey: In particular, what is the second column?
2017-04-21T23:57:17Z jsnell: the raw bytes of the instruction
2017-04-21T23:57:23Z gigamonkey: Oh, just guessed that. ;-)
2017-04-21T23:57:26Z gigamonkey: thanks
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2017-04-22T03:47:05Z aeth: Is there something that is like mapcar or loop ... collect that doesn't add NILs to the resulting list?
2017-04-22T03:47:47Z Bike: er? add nils?
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2017-04-22T03:48:32Z aeth: i.e. a combination of (remove nil (mapcar ...)) which seems to be very common
2017-04-22T03:49:25Z Bike: (loop for thing in list when (process thing) collect it)
2017-04-22T03:50:50Z aeth: Thanks, that works.
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2017-04-22T04:28:35Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-22T04:36:30Z presiden: morning \[T]/
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2017-04-22T04:37:12Z loke___: Hello Lisp
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2017-04-22T08:20:26Z mm_: hi
2017-04-22T08:24:36Z beach: Hello mm_.
2017-04-22T08:25:06Z mm_: hi beach
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2017-04-22T08:35:00Z Grue`: aeth: yeah it's called MAPCAN: (mapcan #'(lambda (x) (and (numberp x) (list x))) '(a 1 b c 3 4 d 5)) => (1 3 4 5)
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2017-04-22T08:47:10Z shaftoe: if my function's argument is a list containing one specific type... is there a way to help compiler beyond (declare (type list x))
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2017-04-22T08:47:45Z _death: switch to an array
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2017-04-22T08:47:53Z Xof: if you're working with lists, the memory accesses... yes
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2017-04-22T08:48:34Z Xof: if you know the length of the list you could (declare (type (cons integer (cons integer (cons integer (cons ... null)))) x)) but that's really a terrible idea
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2017-04-22T08:49:06Z Xof: you could wrap (the integer ...) around accesses to the list
2017-04-22T08:49:28Z shaftoe: hrmm
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2017-04-22T08:49:48Z shaftoe: i have plenty of functions that take lists as arguments, but i've always wondered how to optimize them further
2017-04-22T08:49:50Z Xof: still not a great idea.  Switching representations to specialized vectors is best
2017-04-22T08:49:54Z shaftoe: usually its list of same type of object
2017-04-22T08:50:00Z shaftoe: i'll try vectors
2017-04-22T08:50:01Z Xof: shaftoe: are they anywhere near any kind of bottleneck?
2017-04-22T08:50:12Z shaftoe: Xof: premature optimization... :)
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2017-04-22T08:50:38Z pjb: shaftoe: (defun f (l) (loop for i integer in l sum i))
2017-04-22T08:50:48Z shaftoe: it's not a bottleneck
2017-04-22T08:50:59Z pjb: shaftoe: ie. use THE around the elements of the list.
2017-04-22T08:51:08Z shaftoe: pjb: ahh
2017-04-22T08:51:16Z shaftoe: that makes sense
2017-04-22T08:51:26Z shaftoe: thanks
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2017-04-22T08:51:28Z pjb: notice that there's no optimization to be have, by declaring the type of all the elements of a list, since cons cells are the same for any type of element.
2017-04-22T08:51:47Z pjb: (the integer (car list)) ..
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2017-04-22T10:54:15Z libreman: Is there a way to fix slime-edit-definition when using cl-annot?
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2017-04-22T11:19:05Z libreman: The problem is that within swank the file location is passed to definition-source-for-emacs for non expanded (read) code and slime gets the location for the expanded code. And as cl-annot generates code this is new location is not correct
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2017-04-22T12:08:02Z jdz: There's an option to not use cl-annot?
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2017-04-22T15:08:39Z python476: 'hi
2017-04-22T15:08:50Z beach: Hello python476.
2017-04-22T15:11:54Z python476: hello
2017-04-22T15:11:58Z python476: how are you doing
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2017-04-22T15:12:27Z beach: Me?  Fine.  But that's off topic. :)
2017-04-22T15:12:39Z python476: heh
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2017-04-22T15:12:49Z python476: how are you lisping then ;)
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2017-04-22T15:13:30Z beach: Slow but steady progress.  I am working on a library that will allow for source tracking in a compiler or editor.
2017-04-22T15:13:51Z beach: At the same time, I am working on the incremental Common Lisp parser for the Second Climacs editor.
2017-04-22T15:15:14Z beach: python476: What about you?  What are you working on?
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2017-04-22T15:22:21Z python476: impressive beach
2017-04-22T15:22:42Z python476: right now I'm off computing (electronics), a bit before that I was trying to write a tiny lisp in pascal :)
2017-04-22T15:24:40Z beach: Interesting.  I did one of those in 1982.
2017-04-22T15:24:59Z beach: I was working for a company that had a rule that everything had to be written in Pascal.
2017-04-22T15:25:06Z malice`: How to print 25 times "="? (example of printing it 3 times: ===)
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2017-04-22T15:25:29Z beach: And I had a problem for which Lisp was better suited, so I wrote a Lisp in Pascal.
2017-04-22T15:26:34Z beach: malice`: (loop repeat 25 do (princ "="))
2017-04-22T15:26:45Z malice`: Yeah, that's what I thought I could do
2017-04-22T15:27:25Z malice`: I also wanted to get clever with format and do something like (format t "~{~A~}~%" (make-list 25 :initial-element #\=)) but that's longer
2017-04-22T15:27:29Z malice`: and probably less readable
2017-04-22T15:27:32Z phoe: and conses
2017-04-22T15:27:36Z malice`: yes, and that
2017-04-22T15:28:17Z malice`: looks like loop is the way to go, thanks.
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2017-04-22T15:35:00Z isoraqathedh: Wait, does princ also add on a newline?
2017-04-22T15:35:07Z beach: No.
2017-04-22T15:35:18Z isoraqathedh: Ah, alright.
2017-04-22T15:35:31Z beach: clhs princ
2017-04-22T15:35:31Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_pr.htm
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2017-04-22T15:51:58Z p_l: malice`: ... somehow I got from there to (princ (make-array 15 :element-type 'standard-char :initial-element #\=))
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2017-04-22T15:59:46Z python476: beach: nice hack
2017-04-22T15:59:57Z malice`: p_l: :)
2017-04-22T16:00:17Z p_l: malice`: it still conses, but less ;)
2017-04-22T16:00:34Z phoe: p_l: (princ (make-string 15 :initial-element #\=))
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2017-04-22T16:04:31Z malice`: I have a tree. I want to provide a generic function that would allow for using a function on each element of the tree (let's call it maptree). I also want for the user to be able to provide the traversal method from the default - e.g. in-order, post-order, ... - or instead pass a custom function that would walk the tree.
2017-04-22T16:04:35Z malice`: Is that a good idea?
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2017-04-22T16:06:08Z malice`: I think that's quite okay; however, my concern is that I define it as a generic function, but traversal methods might be different for different classes (some class might want to have a method with e.g. :fast traversal implemented that would be unique to it), but documenting the method isn't that useful in CL imho, then documentation isn't helpful on the matter of traversal method. Is my concern valid?
2017-04-22T16:06:26Z phoe: malice`: is your tree a standard-object?
2017-04-22T16:07:35Z phoe: what you describe looks like a name collision for two classes that want the :fast keyword to mean different things
2017-04-22T16:07:41Z malice`: phoe no
2017-04-22T16:07:50Z malice`: it's of a class that derives from standard-object
2017-04-22T16:08:01Z malice`: it's for trie
2017-04-22T16:08:20Z malice`: I define a general "trie" class, then "standard-trie" (or something like that) that derives from trie
2017-04-22T16:08:27Z phoe: malice`: that's what my question meant; good, then you can freely use generic functions.
2017-04-22T16:08:40Z malice`: but someone might want to define e.g. randomly-sorted-trie
2017-04-22T16:08:57Z malice`: that would behave a little bit different with its keys, and write new methods for them
2017-04-22T16:09:13Z phoe: and you want :fast to mean different things for them, correct?
2017-04-22T16:09:25Z malice`: or write fast-trie and implement :fast there
2017-04-22T16:09:32Z malice`: well, it's not mandatory
2017-04-22T16:09:35Z malice`: but it is possible
2017-04-22T16:10:13Z malice`: I was thinking more of a scenario where e.g. standard-trie has (:default) as list of possible traversal methods
2017-04-22T16:10:26Z malice`: and someone implements nonstandard-trie which has (:default :fast) as traversal methods
2017-04-22T16:10:43Z phoe: use multiple dispatch
2017-04-22T16:10:43Z malice`: but you document generic-function and not methods
2017-04-22T16:10:49Z malice`: yes, I would use that
2017-04-22T16:11:02Z phoe: (defmethod traverse ((tree standard-tree) (traversal-method fast-traversal)) ...)
2017-04-22T16:11:06Z phoe: (defmethod traverse ((tree standard-tree) (traversal-method default-traversal)) ...)
2017-04-22T16:11:13Z phoe: (defmethod traverse ((tree randomly-sorted-tree) (traversal-method default-traversal)) ...)
2017-04-22T16:11:21Z malice`: hmm
2017-04-22T16:11:27Z phoe: (defmethod traverse ((tree randomly-sorted-tree) (traversal-method run-around-in-circles)) ...)
2017-04-22T16:11:33Z malice`: wouldn't eql be better in here?
2017-04-22T16:11:40Z phoe: eql might be good, yes
2017-04-22T16:11:44Z phoe: (eql :fast)
2017-04-22T16:11:53Z phoe: so you don't define classes for traversals
2017-04-22T16:11:54Z malice`: I thought of (eql #'fast)
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2017-04-22T16:12:08Z phoe: that can do, sure
2017-04-22T16:12:25Z phoe: except I don't know if eql to function objects is good idea
2017-04-22T16:12:31Z phoe: in case of later redefinition
2017-04-22T16:12:36Z malice`: me neither
2017-04-22T16:13:00Z phoe: I'd put keywords there, but I'm not too experienced with this
2017-04-22T16:13:05Z phoe: maybe other people have better ideas than me.
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2017-04-22T16:16:20Z Grue`: malice`: (format t "~25,,,'=a" "")
2017-04-22T16:16:39Z phoe: Grue`: hahaha
2017-04-22T16:16:46Z malice`: wow
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2017-04-22T16:16:53Z malice`: I'm not that fluent in this stuff
2017-04-22T16:16:56Z Grue`: (format t "~v,,,'=a" 25 "") for variable number of =
2017-04-22T16:17:00Z pjb: malice`: have a look at the two tree posts referenced from http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Forms--Lists--Trees--and-Data-Types
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2017-04-22T16:22:04Z malice`: hmm
2017-04-22T16:22:29Z malice`: I can't provide a type of &optional or &key parameters, right?
2017-04-22T16:22:40Z malice`: e.g. (defmethod a (&optional (b integer)) ...) ?
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2017-04-22T16:24:28Z Bike: can't dispatch on those, no
2017-04-22T16:25:11Z Bike: you can define a normal fnction like that and then have it pass its arguments to a generic function, though
2017-04-22T16:25:31Z malice`: Oh, I forgot about that hack. Thanks Bike!
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2017-04-22T16:26:37Z malice`: and seriously, who picked a name 'forgot'? lol
2017-04-22T16:26:53Z malice`: pjb: I looked at them. This looks nice and I might consider defining the methods by means of walk-tree, but I would like to provide a simpler interface to the methods
2017-04-22T16:27:05Z malice`: so you could say you want :default or :in-order traversal instead of defining it
2017-04-22T16:27:13Z malice`: but that is a nice post, thank you
2017-04-22T16:27:15Z Bike: someone who enjoys being pinged
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2017-04-22T16:39:17Z python476: "i have a tree" Martin Luther Scheme
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2017-04-22T16:44:10Z otjura: is there a way to pass arguments to lisp scripts when running like sbcl --scripts foo.lisp
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2017-04-22T16:47:08Z pjb: otjura: you can collect them using the SB-EXT:*POSIX-ARGV* variable.
2017-04-22T16:47:42Z otjura: thx
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2017-04-22T17:28:54Z fiveop: Is slime-mode or lisp-mode responsible for indentation?
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2017-04-22T17:32:28Z Bike: slime, i think
2017-04-22T17:34:44Z fiveop: `(defun foo ()\n  "bar\n(baz)"\nnil)` (with \n proper line breaks) causes problems with indentation (after the doc string) and with top-level form recognition of slime (e.g. with C-c C-c), because of the doc string line starting with a (
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2017-04-22T17:35:53Z Bike: you're right, how vexing
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2017-04-22T17:36:29Z Bike: i don't know how to fix it, but a stupid workaround is to escape the paren
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2017-04-22T17:58:13Z phoe: fiveop: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues file an issue for that
2017-04-22T17:58:18Z phoe: this is an obvious bug
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2017-04-22T18:02:33Z fiveop: phoe: already done that
2017-04-22T18:04:15Z phoe: fiveop: so keep the thread alive to make sure it's not forgotten.
2017-04-22T18:04:20Z phoe: just in case. :P
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2017-04-22T18:50:59Z shrdlu68: I have a logging function in a library, and I want to give users the option to define their own function to do logging. From what I've gathered so far, this is done using generic functions, where the users specialze the said function. Is this conventional? Would simply redefining the function work?
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2017-04-22T18:56:19Z Grue`: yeah, a downstream project can redefine any function in your library. i do that sometimes
2017-04-22T18:56:43Z Grue`: faster than making a pull request, heh heh
2017-04-22T18:56:58Z Bike: it would work but monkeypatching can cause problems
2017-04-22T18:57:35Z shrdlu68: Bike: How would it be problematic, in this case?
2017-04-22T18:57:49Z shrdlu68: s/would/could
2017-04-22T18:58:34Z Grue`: for example if you change the api and user's function is not compatible with your library anymore
2017-04-22T18:58:51Z Bike: references to #'foo would still be the old function. another library could redefine something and then a user would want to redefine it themselves while letting the other library ocntinue to work
2017-04-22T19:00:33Z shrdlu68: Bike: While redefining it within a specific package?
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2017-04-22T19:00:43Z Bike: I don't know what that means.
2017-04-22T19:00:47Z shrdlu68: What's a better alternative, then?
2017-04-22T19:01:00Z Bike: generic functions are common
2017-04-22T19:05:55Z shrdlu68: Above, I meant that the function will reside within a specific package, so it wouldn't cause conflict with other libraries and such.
2017-04-22T19:06:36Z Bike: but you wanted people to redefine it.
2017-04-22T19:09:02Z shrdlu68: Yes, can't they redefine it within the package if I export the symbol?
2017-04-22T19:09:26Z Bike: ...yes, but i mean, there's only one to redefine.
2017-04-22T19:09:51Z Bike: What I'm saying is you have two systems that both use your library and both want to redefine the function so they can use your logger.
2017-04-22T19:10:35Z shrdlu68: Oh.
2017-04-22T19:12:02Z shrdlu68: Wouldn't this still be a problem with generic functions?
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2017-04-22T20:24:14Z holycow: AeroNotix: what would it take to add numbered link shortcuts like in conkeror to lispkit?
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2017-04-22T20:26:46Z emaczen: can you collect into a string with loop?
2017-04-22T20:29:07Z phoe: emaczen: (with-output-to-string (...) (loop ... do (princ character)))
2017-04-22T20:29:17Z phoe: the simplest way I can think of
2017-04-22T20:30:16Z emaczen: phoe: I guess not... loop is really good, but I get the thoughts that it isn't complete
2017-04-22T20:30:32Z phoe: emaczen: yes, it's not complete.
2017-04-22T20:30:34Z Bike: collect what, characters?
2017-04-22T20:31:10Z emaczen: Bike: yes, it is a style question -- similar to (map 'string ...)
2017-04-22T20:31:57Z Bike: yeah, loop doesn't have anything to accumulate vectors.
2017-04-22T20:31:57Z emaczen: you can loop over vectors with (loop ... across ....) but I'm only aware of returning with collect
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2017-04-22T20:34:56Z Bike: accumulating a vector means repeatedly resizing it, which is less than efficient. map can figure out the size before it calls anything
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2017-04-22T22:09:48Z zacts: hi lispers
2017-04-22T22:10:22Z holycow: hello
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2017-04-22T22:41:07Z phoe: hey zacts
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2017-04-22T22:53:20Z holycow: huh.  lispkit is nearly a replacement for conkeror.  very very very close.
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2017-04-22T22:53:45Z holycow: AeroNotix: amazing work on lispkit dude.  finally had time to actually use it. amazing what you guys managed to do with a small bit of code
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2017-04-22T23:12:13Z AeroNotix: holycow: thanks! I need to find time to work on it more. Let me know what issues you come across.
2017-04-22T23:12:47Z holycow: AeroNotix: best way to provide feedback? email?
2017-04-22T23:12:53Z AeroNotix: e.g. if there are things in conkerer you are missing, some features aren't implemented like I would like. The link higlighting for example
2017-04-22T23:12:56Z AeroNotix: holycow: github issues
2017-04-22T23:13:00Z holycow: aha k.
2017-04-22T23:13:03Z AeroNotix: github.com/AeroNotix/lispkit
2017-04-22T23:13:09Z holycow: k.
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2017-04-22T23:13:48Z holycow: what is conkeror programmed in?
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2017-04-22T23:15:52Z holycow: anyway, i can't believe how little code you guys used to get something 98'
2017-04-22T23:16:01Z holycow: 98% of the way to conkeror
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2017-04-22T23:18:46Z holycow: AeroNotix: overall, only two things really would help and i can drop conkeror: lispkit hangs often (it looks like a thread hangs, i can still switch to a tab and browse a lot of times) and link hints.  outside of that totally there.
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2017-04-23T00:07:32Z AeroNotix: The hangs are pretty much why I stopped working on it so much. I think the hangs are due to the link hints.
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2017-04-23T00:31:20Z holycow: h!
2017-04-23T00:31:22Z holycow: oh even
2017-04-23T00:31:25Z holycow: hmmm
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2017-04-23T03:50:42Z gigamonkey: So is there some clever way between SLIME and Emacs to automatically get Emacs's font-locking to colorize uses of macros that are the moral equivalent of DEFUN similar to DEFUN?
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2017-04-23T03:59:46Z nyef: gigamonkey: Have you tried naming the macros something that starts with DEF ?
2017-04-23T04:00:07Z Bike: let's see...
2017-04-23T04:00:09Z nyef has no idea if that would actually work, but it could be worth a shot.
2017-04-23T04:00:39Z Bike: looks like you need to set the 'common-lisp-indent-function' property of the thing to 'defun'. no idea what that means but it sounds possible
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2017-04-23T04:01:17Z |3b|: yeah, i think def* and check* get highlighted specially
2017-04-23T04:01:21Z nyef: That... sounds like it would also affect indentation, not merely fonting?
2017-04-23T04:01:37Z Bike: oh. yeah i might be looking in the wrong place.
2017-04-23T04:04:02Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-23T04:04:13Z Bike: for colors it's all that stuff with font-lock-kwywords with a million backslashes.
2017-04-23T04:05:19Z |3b|: def* and check* highlighting might need slime-fontifying-fu contrib
2017-04-23T04:06:49Z |3b|: ah, maybe it is define-* rather than def*
2017-04-23T04:07:04Z |3b|: (also does DO-* and WITH-*)
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2017-04-23T07:52:48Z mm_: hi all
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2017-04-23T07:52:57Z kilfer: mm_: hi
2017-04-23T07:53:02Z beach: Hello mm_.
2017-04-23T07:55:21Z presiden: o/
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2017-04-23T07:59:10Z beach: So I think I understand why it is tempting to parse lambda lists using some ad-hoc code rather than some existing parsing technique.  Existing parsing techniques assume a linear sequence of tokens, but lambda lists can be nested, and no existing parsing technique can handle that.
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2017-04-23T07:59:56Z beach: But ad-hoc code won't do for Cleavir, because I need for the client Common Lisp system to be able to customize the lambda-list parsers.
2017-04-23T08:00:08Z shrdlu68_: mm_: hi
2017-04-23T08:00:35Z beach: So I need to adapt some existing technique to make it able to handle nested lambda lists.  That should be fun.
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2017-04-23T08:26:40Z shrdlu68_: I'm just reading about Radamsa.
2017-04-23T08:26:52Z shrdlu68_: Someone recommended it for cl-tls.
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2017-04-23T08:27:48Z shrdlu68_: "Remember that you can use e.g. tcpflow to record TCP traffic to files, which can then be used as samples for radamsa."
2017-04-23T08:30:14Z shrdlu68_: It's trivial to make cl-tls dump ssl packets to a file. But then when radamsa tries to fuzz cl-tls live (or any other ssl implementation), it can only go so far because it is not ssl-capable.
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2017-04-23T08:31:47Z shrdlu68: i.e fuzzing ssl is not the same as fuzzing, say ASN.1 or xml or mp3
2017-04-23T08:32:52Z shrdlu68: But it would be very useful for fuzzing some parts of cl-tls, like the x509 decoder and the ASN.1 decoder.
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2017-04-23T08:46:15Z phoe: clhs symbolp
2017-04-23T08:46:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symbol.htm
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2017-04-23T09:10:01Z presiden: (hello :lisp)
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2017-04-23T09:13:33Z phoe: hey presiden
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2017-04-23T09:28:14Z shaftoe: hi
2017-04-23T09:29:34Z pjb: shrdlu68: there are other fuzzers that take into account the paths taken by the program (they have to instrument it), to explore and find the right input to exercise all the paths.
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2017-04-23T09:30:11Z pjb: Perhaps they would be able to "crack" ssl?
2017-04-23T09:34:29Z shrdlu68: Perhaps. I will explore them.
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2017-04-23T09:56:58Z pjb: shrdlu68: all about fuzzing ;-) : https://fuzzing-project.org/
2017-04-23T09:58:19Z pjb: Now, of course, http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/afl/  instruments C code.  Perhaps it could be adapted to instrument CL code (using something like eg. cl-stepper).
2017-04-23T09:59:16Z shrdlu68: I've heard of fuzzy lop :)
2017-04-23T09:59:28Z pjb: I like the "12) common-sense risks" section: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/afl/README.txt
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2017-04-23T10:01:46Z shrdlu68: Haha, I guess I won't be fuzzing on my smartphone...
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2017-04-23T10:13:11Z phoe: shrdlu68: you wouldn't run any bruteforce application on your smartphone anyway
2017-04-23T10:13:19Z phoe: pjb: with modern code walkers for CL, this should be possible
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2017-04-23T10:37:58Z samlamamma: Does anyone know when Lisp 1.5 was released? Seems like around 1960
2017-04-23T10:38:20Z samlamamma: Hm, 1962 seems like a good date
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2017-04-23T11:06:39Z pillton: beach: Can you use destructuring-bind?
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2017-04-23T11:24:21Z p_l: pjb: there's a story (legend or truth, who knows) that some intern at Google melted a rack while fuzzing libpng...
2017-04-23T11:25:02Z p_l: shrdlu68: btw, did cl-tls use the existing asn.1 implementation or wrote its own?
2017-04-23T11:25:19Z p_l would love a normal, separate library for ASN.1 ...
2017-04-23T11:25:43Z shrdlu68: p_l: Wrote its own.
2017-04-23T11:25:52Z p_l: ehhh
2017-04-23T11:26:15Z p_l: sounds like common problem whenever someone touches x509 (and that includes big commercial players)
2017-04-23T11:27:00Z shrdlu68: I rather like ASN.1, actually ;-)
2017-04-23T11:27:28Z shrdlu68: When used properly it's great to work with.
2017-04-23T11:27:37Z p_l: I do as well, but ASN.1 shows in so many places that having a single, good implementation that is portable it would be great
2017-04-23T11:28:19Z p_l: shrdlu68: I often find myself thinking that OSI protocol stack etc. was probably better for *today* even if it was too heavy in the past
2017-04-23T11:28:48Z shrdlu68: p_l: I'll put cl-tls on github i the next hour or so. The ASN.1 code so far is mostly a prototype, but I'd like your opinion on it.
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2017-04-23T11:29:38Z shrdlu68: It's not as comprehensive as I'd like at this point, but that's something I'll work on.
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2017-04-23T11:30:29Z shrdlu68: I'd also like to create a way to generate asn-compiling code from a spec.
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2017-04-23T11:31:21Z shrdlu68: I noticed the work I was doing was something that could be automatable. Mostly iterating over an octet vector while ensuring types match, lengths are okay, etc.
2017-04-23T11:31:27Z p_l: shrdlu68: there's a lot of that done already in cl-snmp, but ideally it would be a separate library/toolkit
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2017-04-23T12:06:39Z shka_: i want to see melting rack
2017-04-23T12:06:55Z shka_: it should be glorious
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2017-04-23T12:29:02Z acow: greetings all, if i may ask what is likely a very silly question...
2017-04-23T12:29:51Z acow: can i ask what the values of (subtypep 'integer 'signed-byte) and (subtypep 'signed-byte 'integer should be?)
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2017-04-23T12:30:14Z acow: gah, second form should be (subtypep 'signed-byte 'integer)
2017-04-23T12:32:00Z beach: pillton: For parsing lambda lists?
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2017-04-23T12:33:24Z beach: acow: My guess (without checking) is that they are the same, to T and T.
2017-04-23T12:33:44Z beach: clhs signed-byte
2017-04-23T12:33:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_sgn_by.htm
2017-04-23T12:34:14Z beach: Yep, indeed.
2017-04-23T12:34:46Z acow: Yep, saw the hyperspec, but I'm just concerned that I'm either going crazy or its too late at night...
2017-04-23T12:35:07Z beach: What makes you think there is a problem?
2017-04-23T12:35:16Z acow: My version of SBCL is returning T for both...
2017-04-23T12:35:23Z beach: That is correct.
2017-04-23T12:35:53Z beach: I mean, that behavior on the part of SBCL is correct according to the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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2017-04-23T12:36:22Z acow: I see no listing of 'signed-byte as a supertype of type integer?
2017-04-23T12:36:39Z beach: That Common Lisp HyperSpec page says they are the same.
2017-04-23T12:36:52Z beach: "The atomic type specifier signed-byte denotes the same type as is denoted by the type specifier integer"
2017-04-23T12:36:58Z acow: ah!
2017-04-23T12:37:05Z beach: First line on that Common Lisp HyperSpec page.
2017-04-23T12:37:07Z acow: late at night :P
2017-04-23T12:37:17Z acow: thank you muchly beach :)
2017-04-23T12:37:21Z beach: Anytime.
2017-04-23T12:38:45Z Ukari: (defparameter a (list 5))
2017-04-23T12:38:45Z Ukari: (defparameter b (cons :p a))
2017-04-23T12:38:45Z Ukari: (atomic-update (car (list a)) (lambda (x y) (setf (car y) x)) 9)
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2017-04-23T12:39:21Z Ukari: sorry i should use a paste
2017-04-23T12:40:28Z Ukari: http://paste.lisp.org/+7E64
2017-04-23T12:40:56Z Ukari: is my update way atomic-safe?
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2017-04-23T12:47:16Z shka_: Ukari: what the heck is that?
2017-04-23T12:47:30Z beach: Something specific to an implementation.
2017-04-23T12:47:45Z shka_: ok, let's see
2017-04-23T12:47:56Z shka_: sbcl?
2017-04-23T12:48:03Z Ukari: yes
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2017-04-23T12:48:46Z shka_: right, so as it seems this is a macro
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2017-04-23T12:49:12Z shka_: what it does is essential atomic swap on pointers underneath
2017-04-23T12:49:32Z shka_: so this protects binding, but not content
2017-04-23T12:49:38Z shka_: pretty nifty feature
2017-04-23T12:50:10Z shka_: or not
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2017-04-23T12:50:33Z shka_: this is actually interesting case
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2017-04-23T12:52:56Z shka_: Ukari: anyway, there is no point in (car (list a))
2017-04-23T12:53:03Z shka_: just a will be enough
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2017-04-23T12:53:49Z shka_: secondly, i think that your code is more or less correct, but now i have to check what sbcl does here
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2017-04-23T12:53:55Z shka_: because it is interesting feature
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2017-04-23T12:54:22Z Ukari: but just a can't run in sbcl
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2017-04-23T12:54:53Z Ukari: atomic-update need a place so i use (car (list a)) to get the space
2017-04-23T12:55:01Z shka_: nah
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2017-04-23T12:55:13Z shka_: you really don't need it
2017-04-23T12:55:27Z shka_: just write it like this:
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2017-04-23T12:58:24Z shka_: (atomic-update (car a) (lambda (a b) a) 9)
2017-04-23T12:58:29Z shka_: Ukari: here, this should work
2017-04-23T12:58:57Z shka_: and as i though, it uses compare-and-swap underneath
2017-04-23T12:59:32Z shka_: so your code is not even correct :D
2017-04-23T12:59:33Z Ukari: shka_, you are right,thanks you
2017-04-23T12:59:42Z shka_: this stuff is tricky
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2017-04-23T13:01:16Z shka_: anyway
2017-04-23T13:01:22Z shka_: Ukari: thanks, i learned something new
2017-04-23T13:01:25Z shka_: :-)
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2017-04-23T14:39:13Z drmeister: beach: In your approach to fast GF dispatch - what needs to be considered in a multithreaded environment?  (1) Generic function call-history needs to be updated atomically.  (2) The funcallable-instance function needs to be updated so that it reflects the most recent generic-function call history?
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2017-04-23T14:40:16Z drmeister: This was my big motivator for incorporating multi-threading into Clasp now - the fast GF dispatch issues.
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2017-04-23T14:49:59Z azzamsa: Good night eveyone, I am sorry for disturbing,
2017-04-23T14:49:59Z azzamsa: anyone have a link to Mezzano image (or vdi), I have troubles building it my self.
2017-04-23T14:49:59Z azzamsa: thank you very much, thank you
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2017-04-23T14:57:38Z froggey: azzamsa: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/releases/demo3
2017-04-23T14:57:54Z froggey: drmeister: hi, I did write the LLVM to CL converter
2017-04-23T14:59:02Z drmeister: froggey: Hello - and you were able to run the DOOM C source code through it and the product runs?
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2017-04-23T14:59:37Z froggey: that's right
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2017-04-23T15:05:52Z drmeister: How does graphics work with that?
2017-04-23T15:06:42Z drmeister: How did you go about doing it?  Did you write it in C++ or C?
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2017-04-23T15:09:00Z froggey: I wrote a new SDL backend, which doom links against. the SDL backend bolts on to some graphics syscalls provided by the runtime
2017-04-23T15:09:35Z drmeister: SDL?
2017-04-23T15:09:46Z froggey: and the runtime implements graphics using either mezzano's native gui or lispbuilder-sdl on other implementations
2017-04-23T15:09:55Z Posterdati: hi
2017-04-23T15:10:25Z Posterdati: how it is possible to do a non-blocking connect with iolib?
2017-04-23T15:10:30Z froggey: libsdl - https://www.libsdl.org/  a C library that provides a basic platform independent graphics api
2017-04-23T15:10:34Z drmeister: Ah
2017-04-23T15:10:51Z beach: drmeister: Yes, that sounds right.
2017-04-23T15:12:16Z froggey: the translator (the program that converts LLVM bitcode files to CL source) is written in C++ because I wanted to use LLVM's C++ API. I found the C API is missing bits and pieces
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2017-04-23T15:13:10Z drmeister: So you read bitcode and then iterate through the functions/basic-blocks/instructions and write out CL?
2017-04-23T15:13:34Z drmeister: And global variables.
2017-04-23T15:13:42Z froggey: exactly
2017-04-23T15:14:19Z drmeister: What are your thoughts on C++ exception handling?
2017-04-23T15:16:18Z drmeister: In terms of the level of difficulty of supporting it vs generating CL for the rest of llvm-IR?
2017-04-23T15:17:09Z froggey: I'm not sure it's possible to implement DWARF-style unwinding directly, but there's an LLVM pass for converting invoke instructions to calls to setjmp/longjmp
2017-04-23T15:18:30Z froggey: to get exceptions working I think I'd have to make it run that pass, implement whatever runtime requirements that pass has, and get libc++abi running
2017-04-23T15:18:42Z froggey: a bunch of work, but possible
2017-04-23T15:19:29Z froggey: those would be the major tasks, I probably missed something & haven't looked into the details
2017-04-23T15:20:52Z drmeister: Does that LLVM pass deal with RAII?
2017-04-23T15:21:44Z drmeister: What is that pass?  I can look it up
2017-04-23T15:22:45Z pjb: There's a difference between signed-byte and integer however; signed-byte is a type, while integer is a system-class.
2017-04-23T15:23:19Z phoe: so you can specialize on integers but not on signed-bytes.
2017-04-23T15:23:19Z beach: pjb: Good catch.
2017-04-23T15:23:58Z drmeister: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bub1bV_IIDZDhdld-zTULE2Sv0KNbOXk33KOW8o0aR4/edit#heading=h.whtnf7s9ugr9
2017-04-23T15:24:26Z froggey: drmeister: whoops, it was written by the PNaCl people, not emscripten. afaik it's part of their llvm fork and not in the main llvm repo
2017-04-23T15:24:34Z froggey: yes, that's it
2017-04-23T15:24:52Z froggey: https://chromium.googlesource.com/native_client/pnacl-llvm/+/master/lib/Transforms/NaCl/PNaClSjLjEH.cpp
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2017-04-23T15:34:59Z drmeister: What a rats nest
2017-04-23T15:35:57Z drmeister: "C++ exception handling" - the red headed stepchild of C++.
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2017-04-23T15:41:34Z froggey: it's a bit complicated. were you thinking of using it for something? I can't think of any use for a transform like that aside from weird llvm backends
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2017-04-23T15:49:36Z drmeister: No - I'm interested in learning more about how people deal with C++ exception handling in different contexts.  It's a less central feature of C++ and it's complicated and so it doesn't get much support.
2017-04-23T15:50:17Z drmeister: But this EH -> SJLJ thing is interesting.
2017-04-23T15:52:08Z drmeister: This implementation uses 1024 bytes for each jump buffer - that is a lot.
2017-04-23T15:52:42Z pjb: it could be even more on other processors.
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2017-04-23T15:55:31Z froggey: I see
2017-04-23T15:55:33Z fsmunoz: greetings
2017-04-23T15:56:24Z fsmunoz: Is anyone using gmane for mailing lists hosted by common-lisp.net? I received a 550 Reverse DNS verification failed and I'm trying to see if it's something on my end.
2017-04-23T15:56:51Z presiden: \o
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2017-04-23T16:00:44Z Grue`: I thought gmane shut down?
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2017-04-23T16:03:43Z fsmunoz: Grue`: apparently it's ressurected
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2017-04-23T17:22:56Z gigamonkey: nyef: Yeah, they were DEFPARSER and DEFTERM. I eventually found my way to the font-lock-add-keywords gorp and added a custom rule. Maybe I can figure out something more clever than that later.
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2017-04-23T17:33:09Z jcarr: Does anyone have any good references on Lisp-1's versus Lisp-2's and their merits?
2017-04-23T17:35:00Z cheryllium: jcarr: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
2017-04-23T17:36:14Z kjak___: jcarr: chapter 2 of LiSP (Lisp in Small Pieces)
2017-04-23T17:36:37Z jcarr: Thanks!
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2017-04-23T17:52:52Z pjb: jcarr: Please read: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html
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2017-04-23T18:21:39Z phoe: cheryllium: "Of course, Common Lisp is not designed to accommodate multiprocessing, and it would take more than uniting of the function and value namespaces to allow Common Lisp to seriously support multiprocessing."
2017-04-23T18:21:53Z phoe: welp, but we got bordeaux-threads and we're doing fine
2017-04-23T18:22:09Z varjag: wtf
2017-04-23T18:22:20Z cheryllium: phoe: interesting but why did you ping me?
2017-04-23T18:23:53Z cheryllium: and yeah i guess that quote is a bit outdated?
2017-04-23T18:26:59Z phoe: cheryllium: since you posted the technical issues link
2017-04-23T18:27:08Z phoe: and that's a quote from that article
2017-04-23T18:27:09Z cheryllium: ah ok
2017-04-23T18:28:23Z Grue`: multithreading != multiprocessing
2017-04-23T18:29:05Z phoe: oh wait
2017-04-23T18:29:22Z phoe: Grue`: we have this nonetheless
2017-04-23T18:29:45Z phoe: Mezzano has the ability to utilize multiple CPUs for example
2017-04-23T18:29:51Z phoe: (AFAIK)
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2017-04-23T18:30:03Z phoe: and it's a CL as close to the metal as possible
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2017-04-23T18:30:16Z Bike: it, of course, did take more work than namespaces or whatever, you need locks and shit
2017-04-23T18:32:59Z froggey: phoe: not yet
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2017-04-23T18:34:02Z phoe: froggey: oh, so ignore me.
2017-04-23T18:34:17Z shrdlu68_: I've finally gotten cl-tls to a semblance of a working ssl implementation. Still a lot of work to do: https://github.com/shrdlu68/cl-tls
2017-04-23T18:34:55Z shrdlu68_: I've only tested on ecl, ccl, and sbcl on Gnu/Linux.
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2017-04-23T18:36:11Z shrdlu68_: Since it's still in early dev, there's bound to be bugs and quirky behavior. Let me know.
2017-04-23T18:36:24Z phoe gives the first star
2017-04-23T18:36:48Z shrdlu68_ beames
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2017-04-23T18:42:26Z varjag: shrdlu68_: this is really cool
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2017-04-23T18:43:38Z shrdlu68_: varjag: thanks :)
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2017-04-23T18:45:39Z trocado: I'm running some time-intensive functions and I notice that sbcl only takes up 25% cpu... Any ideias on how to make it use more?
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2017-04-23T18:46:29Z Bike: make your code less CPU-bound?
2017-04-23T18:46:31Z phoe: trocado: 25% CPU?
2017-04-23T18:46:35Z Bike: er, more i guess
2017-04-23T18:46:36Z phoe: how do you measure it?
2017-04-23T18:46:42Z Bike: check top
2017-04-23T18:46:55Z phoe: and are you sure that you don't measure the performance of all cores?
2017-04-23T18:46:57Z trocado: i'm on windows
2017-04-23T18:46:57Z Bike: for example, i ran (loop), and now %CPU 100.7
2017-04-23T18:47:00Z trocado: task manager
2017-04-23T18:47:07Z phoe: trocado: how many cores do you have?
2017-04-23T18:47:16Z phoe: logical CPU cores, that is
2017-04-23T18:47:17Z trocado: 2 cores, 4 threads
2017-04-23T18:47:21Z phoe: exactly
2017-04-23T18:47:31Z phoe: SBCL takes up one full logical core
2017-04-23T18:47:36Z phoe: so 100% of a single logical core
2017-04-23T18:47:43Z phoe: so 25% of all your CPU power available.
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2017-04-23T18:47:51Z varjag: not on linux
2017-04-23T18:47:54Z phoe: so - time for multithreading
2017-04-23T18:48:00Z varjag: 100% is 100%
2017-04-23T18:48:00Z Bike: yeah i'd be surprised if windows was different there.
2017-04-23T18:48:04Z phoe: varjag: yes, linux measures this differently.
2017-04-23T18:48:06Z jdz: varjag: not really.
2017-04-23T18:48:07Z varjag: two cores are 200%
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2017-04-23T18:48:14Z phoe: Bike: actually, it is.
2017-04-23T18:48:25Z Bike: that so
2017-04-23T18:48:27Z Bike: been a while
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2017-04-23T18:48:43Z phoe: Bike: https://www.howtogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/cpu-and-memory-usage-in-task-manager.png
2017-04-23T18:48:50Z phoe: at least on winxp it used to show that
2017-04-23T18:48:54Z trocado: can't sbcl manage multithreading in an automated way?
2017-04-23T18:49:00Z varjag: no
2017-04-23T18:49:06Z Bike: what? no.
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2017-04-23T18:49:23Z phoe: trocado: you need to write your code in a way that utilizes multithreading.
2017-04-23T18:49:28Z Bike: if your code does one thing at a time it can't magically be rewritten in parallel
2017-04-23T18:49:38Z trocado: ok
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2017-04-23T18:49:58Z trocado: where can I learn about this?
2017-04-23T18:50:16Z varjag: start with documentation on posix threads
2017-04-23T18:50:19Z jurov: trocado: afaik no language manages multithreading in an automated way
2017-04-23T18:51:00Z varjag: as most cl implemenation build their threading model on top of them
2017-04-23T18:51:02Z Bike: posix threads seems like an overly hard place to start...
2017-04-23T18:51:31Z varjag: well there are tutorials of all levels for them
2017-04-23T18:51:37Z varjag: not necessarily in lisp
2017-04-23T18:51:40Z jurov: if you can split the problem into 4 or more datasets that can be ran concurrently, do that
2017-04-23T18:51:44Z varjag: the model is the same
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2017-04-23T18:52:44Z trocado: Bike: where could I start then?
2017-04-23T18:54:27Z Bike: you think about what parts of your program are actually required to be sequential, and set it up so that the expensive stuff that isn't can run nonsequentially.
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2017-04-23T18:57:10Z trocado: at first glance the time-consuming parts must be sequential, it seems... it's analysis on a large data-set
2017-04-23T18:57:40Z trocado: maybe I could perform the analisys on different parts of the data concurrently
2017-04-23T18:57:46Z trocado: *analysis
2017-04-23T18:59:03Z phoe: sounds like it
2017-04-23T18:59:18Z phoe: if you can split it into four parts that do can run in parallel then you're good
2017-04-23T18:59:52Z trocado: yes, I have to do some reading
2017-04-23T19:00:04Z trocado: thank you guys!
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2017-04-23T19:29:38Z cheryllium: I'm stumped. ASDF cannot find a .asd file in the current working directory, can anyone suggest what to try to debug this?
2017-04-23T19:30:11Z pjb: (push #P"./" asdf:*central-registry*)
2017-04-23T19:30:19Z Bike: it doesn't look in the cwd by default
2017-04-23T19:30:39Z cheryllium: Oh huh
2017-04-23T19:31:36Z cheryllium: I guess I shouldn't have assumed it would fall back to cwd if it wasn't found in the paths
2017-04-23T19:31:41Z cheryllium: Thanks
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2017-04-23T19:31:52Z Bike: that would be too easy
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2017-04-23T19:34:56Z python476: cheryllium: I assume that all the time. Very java of asdf
2017-04-23T19:35:26Z cheryllium: I think it's not an unreasonable behavior to want to assume :)
2017-04-23T19:35:42Z python476: yeah
2017-04-23T19:35:49Z python476: maybe I'm stuck in error land
2017-04-23T19:36:07Z cheryllium: Maybe it can be added in the future, if it's decided to be desirable
2017-04-23T19:36:13Z Bike: you can check the manual, "how asdf searches for systems" or something
2017-04-23T19:36:57Z cheryllium: I did actually... but was intimidated by it (this is entirely my problem, of course)
2017-04-23T19:37:29Z cheryllium: this is the page I ended up on, I wasn't sure which part was relevant to me: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Controlling-where-ASDF-searches-for-systems
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2017-04-23T19:42:01Z Grue`: read this instead https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
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2017-04-23T19:42:27Z Grue`: just make it search under :tree and never worry about it not finding your systems again
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2017-04-23T19:45:10Z cheryllium: Grue`: It says "In earlier versions of ASDF, the system source registry was configured using a global variable, asdf:*central-registry*"
2017-04-23T19:45:15Z cheryllium: Does this mean I'm using an outdated ASDF?
2017-04-23T19:45:57Z shrdlu68_: IIRC, the behavior remains to date.
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2017-04-23T19:46:42Z Grue`: it's backward compatible
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2017-04-23T19:58:24Z jcarr: I'm having trouble getting asdf working. My current directory (as #P"./") is in the *central-registry*
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2017-04-23T19:58:35Z jcarr: And I'm getting a component not found error when I try to load my package
2017-04-23T19:58:50Z jcarr: I have the .asd file, and two lisp files, they're all in the same directory (my current one)
2017-04-23T19:59:13Z jcarr: source: (ERROR 'MISSING-COMPONENT :REQUIRES COMPONENT)
2017-04-23T20:00:09Z jcarr: And the component not found is the asdf package itself, not any of the dependencies
2017-04-23T20:01:55Z jcarr: There's some extras in here but my *central-registry* is  (#P"./" "./" "." #P"/home/xxx/quicklisp/quicklisp/")
2017-04-23T20:03:28Z shrdlu68: jcarr: Paste the asd file
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2017-04-23T20:06:05Z shrdlu68: minion: How smart are you?
2017-04-23T20:06:12Z minion: why do you want to know?
2017-04-23T20:06:36Z jcarr: ;;;; scss.asd  (asdf:defsystem #:scss   :description "Scss compiler in common lisp"   :author "... <...@gmail.com>"   :license "MIT"   :depends-on (#:smug)   :serial t   :components ((:file "package")                (:file "scss")))
2017-04-23T20:06:52Z PuercoPop: jcarr: I don't think it is a good idea to put #P"./" into the ASDF central-registry.
2017-04-23T20:07:20Z jcarr: Oh, what would be the best way to do this then?
2017-04-23T20:07:38Z jcarr: I want to be able to test a package without moving it somewhere else
2017-04-23T20:07:43Z PuercoPop: what Grue told you
2017-04-23T20:08:01Z jcarr: I don't see anything from Grue
2017-04-23T20:08:13Z shrdlu68: jcarr: Create a soft link to your project directory within a direcotyr that is in *central-registry*
2017-04-23T20:08:28Z jcarr: https://pastebin.com/6eBWnQTK nicely formatted .asd file
2017-04-23T20:08:30Z jcarr: okay, will do
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2017-04-23T20:09:29Z PuercoPop: they linked you the ADSF manual. Basically (:tree "/path/to/theparent/dir/of/all/the/other/folders") or (:directory "/home/puercopop/.emacs.d/site-lisp/sly/slynk/")
2017-04-23T20:09:48Z PuercoPop: place that in your ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/
2017-04-23T20:10:13Z PuercoPop: and ASDF we'll be able to find the definition you want
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2017-04-23T20:12:02Z PuercoPop: or if you prefer to use the deprecated central-register write the absolute path instead instead of a relative one.
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2017-04-23T20:20:41Z jcarr: Okay, I think I have it set up correctly
2017-04-23T20:20:43Z jcarr: Thanks
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2017-04-23T20:25:58Z Grue`: jcarr: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
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2017-04-23T20:37:35Z cheryllium: what would you say is the easiest way to remove a list of keys from an alist? (as in, given a list of keys and an alist, return that alist with all entries matching those keys removed)
2017-04-23T20:38:00Z cheryllium: I found the remove functions for lists, was wondering if there is something specialized for alists however since they are so common?
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2017-04-23T20:38:59Z cheryllium: To "show my effort" i suppose, I found this answer: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8703479/common-lisp-remove-a-pair-in-an-alist-via-setq-and-assoc
2017-04-23T20:39:23Z cheryllium: The only difference here is I have a list of keys I want to filter out, so to speak
2017-04-23T20:40:10Z cheryllium: (er - just the remove part of that answer i mean, I know not to use setf and I don't wish to destroy/overwrite the original list)
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2017-04-23T20:41:59Z Bike: to remove one key you can use remove with :key
2017-04-23T20:42:39Z mazoe: what’s the format magic to print a readable keyword? (e.g. (format t “~A” :bla) prints “BLA” and I want “:bla”)
2017-04-23T20:42:51Z Bike: for multiple i'd do (loop for pair in alist unless (find (car pair) keys-to-remove) collect pair)
2017-04-23T20:43:03Z cheryllium: I'm thinking to mapcar over the list of keys, and call remove for each one
2017-04-23T20:43:05Z Bike: mazoe: A is aesthetic, try S
2017-04-23T20:43:14Z mazoe: Bike: ah right, thanks (Y)
2017-04-23T20:43:19Z cheryllium: Bike: is there an advantage to loop over mapping here?
2017-04-23T20:43:20Z Bike: cheryllium: that would work too, but it's probably slower
2017-04-23T20:43:36Z cheryllium: ah ok thanks
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2017-04-23T20:47:31Z Grue`: (remove-if (lambda (x) (find x bad-keys)) alist :key 'car)
2017-04-23T20:47:38Z Grue`: shorter than loop
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2017-04-23T20:51:54Z cheryllium: thank you Grue`
2017-04-23T20:52:13Z cheryllium: not to prematurely optimize but does that match up performance-wise as well, do you know?
2017-04-23T20:52:24Z Grue`: should probably be the same
2017-04-23T20:52:29Z Bike: that does pretty much the same thing as my loop
2017-04-23T20:52:34Z Bike: so yeah it oughta be fine
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2017-04-23T20:52:48Z Grue`: if you want to optimize, make bad-keys a hash-table or something (if you have a lot of bad keys)
2017-04-23T20:53:12Z cheryllium: also, I'm now getting an error "The function STREAM is undefined" but I thought this was a built-in function?
2017-04-23T20:54:00Z cheryllium: is there a basic requirement I have forgotten to include, perhaps?
2017-04-23T20:54:45Z Bike: no function b y that name that i know of
2017-04-23T20:54:48Z Bike: what's it supposed to do
2017-04-23T20:54:50Z Bike: clhs stream
2017-04-23T20:54:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_stream.htm
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2017-04-23T20:55:22Z pjb: Depends on how many bad keys you have.
2017-04-23T20:55:32Z cheryllium: ah.. I assumed it was to create a stream for i/o, for instance when calling with-open-file
2017-04-23T20:55:32Z pjb: Less than 5-35 bad keys, lists are faster.
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2017-04-23T20:56:47Z Bike: with-open-file gets a stream by calling OPEN
2017-04-23T20:56:48Z cheryllium: ah nvm I have made a mistake
2017-04-23T20:57:02Z cheryllium: I guess my question is, how to take a filename and create a stream object from it?
2017-04-23T20:57:09Z pjb: with OPEN
2017-04-23T20:57:17Z pjb: (or with-open-file which uses open).
2017-04-23T20:57:23Z cheryllium: okay, apologies ><
2017-04-23T20:58:53Z cheryllium: I'm embarrassed by my lack of experience ahh
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2017-04-23T21:09:54Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/10000
2017-04-23T21:09:56Z phoe: XachX: ...
2017-04-23T21:10:00Z phoe: god damn right
2017-04-23T21:11:10Z XachX: Ha.
2017-04-23T21:11:17Z Josh_2: I was got
2017-04-23T21:11:41Z mazoe: hah niec
2017-04-23T21:11:45Z mazoe: nice*
2017-04-23T21:11:59Z phoe: everyone - mazoe is the amazing guy today, for he created a mapping between symbols in the CL package and their respective CLHS and *CLUS* pages
2017-04-23T21:12:08Z phoe: https://0bin.net/paste/k01NZR0Io6+7Nhxc#LKnAZJotQAYEX-l683/+jN3tBzs21bx4MBQG0JKMgo9
2017-04-23T21:12:17Z phoe: now we can teach minion how to clus!
2017-04-23T21:12:31Z phoe starts the applause
2017-04-23T21:12:51Z mazoe: disclaimer - definitely was not hand crafted, there are probably errors
2017-04-23T21:13:28Z phoe: I'll take a look at it tomorrow
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2017-04-23T21:14:03Z mazoe: sweet, thanks :)
2017-04-23T21:14:24Z phoe: but nonetheless
2017-04-23T21:14:27Z phoe applauds some more
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2017-04-23T21:16:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe: mazoe: Neat!
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2017-04-23T21:54:20Z phoe: pjb: there was this article of yours methinks where you showed how to run a LISP 1.5 theorem prover on modern Common Lisp
2017-04-23T21:54:25Z phoe: do you have the link somewhere?
2017-04-23T21:57:34Z Bike: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
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2017-04-23T22:10:22Z phoe: minion: memo for mazoe: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2017-04-23T22:10:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell mazoe when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-04-23T22:10:25Z phoe: Bike: thanks
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2017-04-23T22:34:50Z nosefouratyou: can you do car/cadr/cdr on strings?
2017-04-23T22:38:09Z Bike: no. strings are vectors.
2017-04-23T22:38:34Z Bike: you can get at elements with CHAR and subsequences with SUBSEQ.
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2017-04-23T22:41:34Z nosefouratyou: Bike: thanks!
2017-04-23T22:42:36Z edgar-rft: but you could implement string-car/cadr/cdr... using CHAR and SUBSEQ
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2017-04-23T23:09:32Z attila_lendvai: ...which would make very little sense
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2017-04-23T23:12:36Z edgar-rft: but it would be funny :-)
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2017-04-23T23:24:11Z Suzuran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ayWp_W0Poo Lambda release engineering
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2017-04-23T23:34:21Z cheryllium: What's the easiest way to copy a file without using a library? (I could read from the file and write to the output location using with-open-file, but I'm wondering if there's a better/easier way.)
2017-04-23T23:35:43Z pjb: No.
2017-04-23T23:35:47Z pjb: Use a fucking library.
2017-04-23T23:36:04Z pjb: (what's wrong with libraries???)
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2017-04-23T23:36:42Z pjb: (apropos "COPY-FILE") gives me 6 different functions in my ccl lisp image to do it!)
2017-04-23T23:37:17Z pjb: (5 of them are external symbols!)
2017-04-23T23:37:45Z pillton: There is alexandria:copy-file.
2017-04-23T23:38:08Z pjb: uiop:copy-file would be the most present.
2017-04-23T23:38:32Z pillton: recent do you mean?
2017-04-23T23:39:25Z pjb: In my current image.  There doesn't seem to be a *version* in uiop…
2017-04-23T23:39:38Z aeth: pjb: Unrelated to that particular action, but what's generally wrong with libraries are the lack of: (1) performance, (2) documentation, (3) anything else that comes with polish
2017-04-23T23:40:00Z pjb: because you can have those three things by writing a one-liner???
2017-04-23T23:40:17Z aeth: No, the proper solution is a new library. :-p
2017-04-23T23:40:54Z Suzuran: Using libraries is a pain. There should be a library library to make it easier.
2017-04-23T23:41:06Z Suzuran: Then when that gets all bloated and suck, we can make a library library library
2017-04-23T23:41:18Z Suzuran: it's future-proof!
2017-04-23T23:41:24Z Suzuran: Very enterprise.
2017-04-23T23:41:39Z pillton: cheryllium: I would probably use uiop since it provides other file/directory operators which aren't provided by the standard.
2017-04-23T23:41:42Z Suzuran: (Is that still a thing?)
2017-04-23T23:41:45Z aeth: Suzuran: Well, other languages have things sort of like a library library. Framework ecosystems that are basically subecosystems within the language ecosystem.
2017-04-23T23:41:57Z aeth: Instead of using a library, use a plugin to another, very large library!
2017-04-23T23:42:11Z pjb: No, the real problem with libraries is that they're NIH.  Hence cesarum: My very own library invented here! (and also, since I've been programming in CL since 1996, it has some anteriority ;-) ).
2017-04-23T23:42:15Z Suzuran: I feel like I should say something about synergies here, but I feel like I should be shot for it.
2017-04-23T23:42:19Z cheryllium: okay, sure :/
2017-04-23T23:42:54Z aeth: pjb: But I can understand why people would NIH if they need performance, or documentation, or a reasonable architecture, etc.
2017-04-23T23:42:55Z pjb: and I note that Faré implemented his own uiop library instead of using cesarum (or even alexandria).
2017-04-23T23:42:56Z cheryllium: I'm not /opposed/ to using a library, I simply asked if there was a way to do it without one. Copying a file seems like a common enough operation that maybe the language had a nice built-in way to do it.
2017-04-23T23:43:28Z pjb: cheryllium: amongst (apropos "COPY-FILE"), there's a high probability to find an implementation dependent one.
2017-04-23T23:43:43Z aeth: pjb: A lot of libraries are things written naively in CLOS, last updated 8 years ago in the custom (i.e. court-untested) LLGPL license, with absolutely no documentation but the source code. This is only a slight exaggeration.
2017-04-23T23:43:43Z pjb: But not in CL.
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2017-04-23T23:44:20Z pjb: aeth: mine is AGPL3, and if this is a consideration you will be paid to rewrite it.
2017-04-23T23:44:22Z cheryllium: Okay, thank you. I was not trying to start any sort of war here, sorry if it was a sensitive topic for you.
2017-04-23T23:45:03Z pjb: cheryllium: for years people have been complaining for the lack of CL libraries… so yes, it's rather sensitive to put it that way.
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2017-04-23T23:45:42Z cheryllium: What, really? But CL has so many libraries for everything, I can't fathom that being a real complaint. I usually hear "lack of documentation" as the main complaint :P
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2017-04-23T23:46:03Z edgar-rft: cheryllium: use WITH-OPEN-FILE to open the source and the destination file, and a binary-stream to copy all bytes from the source to the destination. No library needed for that.
2017-04-23T23:46:07Z aeth: cheryllium: CL has 8 libraries for everything, each solving a different 60% of the problem ime.
2017-04-23T23:46:18Z cheryllium: I usually run into the opposite problem where there are too many libraries and I don't know which to pick!
2017-04-23T23:46:26Z pjb: Just type M-. on any result of (apropos "COPY-FILE") and copy-and-paste the code into your own library ;-)
2017-04-23T23:46:57Z cheryllium: But as a coder in general I do try to avoid libraries for things I only need to do once because it adds an extra dependency.
2017-04-23T23:47:21Z aeth: Always depend on alexandria, uiop, etc.
2017-04-23T23:47:26Z aeth: Even if you generally avoid dependencies.
2017-04-23T23:47:26Z pjb: cheryllium: most of those libraries are already dependencies (of other libraries you are using).
2017-04-23T23:47:32Z cheryllium: That's fair
2017-04-23T23:48:02Z pjb: Again, the mere fact that (apropos "COPY-FILE") gives me 6 different functions NAMED copy-file in the current scratchpad repl, demonstrates it!
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2017-04-23T23:48:16Z aeth: alexandria and uiop and more specific libraries like bordeaux-threads, etc., cover portability issues and missing features. Expect to use them.
2017-04-23T23:48:33Z pjb: (and we've not considered yet other functions such as cp or other names).
2017-04-23T23:48:50Z cheryllium: Ah okay. Yeah I shouldn't worry about using those, they're so common.
2017-04-23T23:50:05Z aeth: As an example of a missing feature, higher order functions without partial application leads to a lot of unnecessary lambda boilerplate, but alexandria's curry and rcurry fix this.
2017-04-23T23:50:18Z aeth: Alexandria also has some iteration constructs and types that really ought to be in the language itself.
2017-04-23T23:50:55Z aeth: And you're probably not going to be able to handle files and pathnames without UIOP.
2017-04-23T23:51:14Z aeth: So uiop:copy-file is probably what you want to use
2017-04-23T23:51:28Z cheryllium: Oh Alexandria has curry implemented? I will have to pass that along. I know someone who tried to write a curry macro, he was frustrated by the lack of it in CL
2017-04-23T23:52:18Z cheryllium: I'll do some reading on UIOP, I haven't used it before but it sounds very useful, maybe essential
2017-04-23T23:52:32Z pjb: (defun curry (f &rest largs) (lambda (&rest rargs) (apply f (append largs rargs)))) (mapcar (curry '+ 2) '(1 2 3)) #| --> (3 4 5) |#
2017-04-23T23:52:41Z pjb: cheryllium: not a macro, a function!
2017-04-23T23:52:48Z aeth: e.g. (mapcar (rcurry #'/ 2) (list 1 2 3 4 5))
2017-04-23T23:53:14Z aeth: pjb: A compiler macro, actually.
2017-04-23T23:53:43Z cheryllium: ahh neat
2017-04-23T23:53:45Z aeth: curry and rcurry have functions and compiler macros. I'm assuming the latter are much better, where possible.
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2017-04-23T23:54:14Z cheryllium: I believe that's what my friend ended up with too, I think he may have started out writing a macro but realized at some point that a function was sufficient.
2017-04-23T23:54:38Z cheryllium: What is a compiler macro? (Are such googlable questions allowed here?)
2017-04-23T23:54:54Z pjb: clhs define-compiler-macro
2017-04-23T23:54:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm
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2017-04-23T23:55:58Z cheryllium: Oh that's cool
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2017-04-23T23:58:16Z cheryllium: I'm reading and it says UIOP comes with ASDF - If that's the case, how should I refer to UIOP functions? Do they exist in the asdf namespace then?
2017-04-23T23:58:38Z pillton: uiop:copy-file
2017-04-23T23:58:59Z cheryllium: Do I need to (require :uiop)? (I guess that's the source of my confusion- does requiring asdf take care of that?)
2017-04-23T23:58:59Z aeth: It's also uiop/stream:copy-file
2017-04-23T23:59:39Z pillton: I wonder why they use uiop/stream instead of uiop.stream?
2017-04-23T23:59:54Z pjb: Ask Fare!
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2017-04-24T00:01:27Z aeth: pillton: The convention in CL seems to generally be /s
2017-04-24T00:01:29Z aeth: I use /s
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2017-04-24T00:01:53Z pjb: I doubt it. There are probably more package using dots in their names.
2017-04-24T00:01:57Z pillton: That isn't true. Most people use dots.
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2017-04-24T00:02:46Z pillton: SLIME even hides the "parent" package when printing the package name in the REPL.
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2017-04-24T00:13:12Z azzamsa_: froggey: thanks lot, I am running it in Vbox succesfully. awesome. thanks lot.
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2017-04-24T00:15:15Z pillton: Practical Common Lisp encourages reversed internet domain name.
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2017-04-24T00:41:03Z aeth: pillton: That's not a good convention, though, because most internet domains don't have hyphens, but when you have a multiple word package, you should use hyphens.
2017-04-24T00:41:31Z aeth: pillton: So either you reserve a mostly useless extra domain with the hyphen in there or you basically violate CL conventions by running multiple words together hyphenless
2017-04-24T00:42:20Z pillton: Yeah. I hate reversed internet domain name. That was the only place I could find which encourage dots.
2017-04-24T00:42:43Z pillton: Sorry.. I could find, in the time I allocated for the search, which encouraged dots.
2017-04-24T00:45:51Z PuercoPop: cheryllium: no need to requirement, you can use them from the uiop package, which just rexports all symbols from the the uiop/* packages
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2017-04-24T00:46:55Z PuercoPop: however if you are going to submit the project to quicklisp, you'd have to declare uiop as a dependency
2017-04-24T00:47:05Z pillton: aeth: I can't remember what encourage me to use dots. It has been 10 years since I asked the question.
2017-04-24T00:47:33Z PuercoPop: pillton: Allegro's hierarchical packages?
2017-04-24T00:47:43Z pillton: I don't think they existed.
2017-04-24T00:49:27Z pillton: Anyhow, there are more important things about packages that need fixing.
2017-04-24T00:52:18Z cheryllium: PuercoPop: thank you for the help!
2017-04-24T00:52:43Z PuercoPop: np, glad I could help
2017-04-24T00:54:36Z Suzuran: Hey, is the sense of (> x y) supposed to be backwards of what you would expect? (T if Y is bigger than X)
2017-04-24T00:54:48Z Suzuran: Or did I screw something up?
2017-04-24T00:54:56Z Bike: (> 4 3) => T
2017-04-24T00:55:23Z Suzuran: Right, that IS supposed to be that way then?
2017-04-24T00:55:32Z Bike: yes
2017-04-24T00:55:37Z Bike: i mean you can try it in the repl
2017-04-24T00:55:41Z pillton: (> 4 3 2) => T
2017-04-24T00:55:49Z pillton: (> 1 4 3 2) => NIL
2017-04-24T00:55:54Z Bike: (> a b) is a > b
2017-04-24T00:56:04Z cheryllium: I guess you screwed something up :/
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2017-04-24T00:58:34Z aeth: Try the case where (= x y) so you can see if you accidentally negated it (i.e. <= instead of >) or accidentally reversed the comparison somewhere (i.e. < instead of >)
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2017-04-24T04:03:04Z krator44: guise
2017-04-24T04:03:09Z krator44: i must be missing something
2017-04-24T04:03:22Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-24T04:03:30Z krator44: with keyword parameters why do i get the error "odd number of arguments"
2017-04-24T04:03:40Z krator44: when one of the arguments is a list
2017-04-24T04:03:54Z Bike: because there should be an even number. one keyword and one value, two keywords and two values, whatever.
2017-04-24T04:04:31Z beach: krator44: Show the code.
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2017-04-24T04:04:46Z krator44: ok so i have a function call like this (concatenate-with-divider :divider ", " :items '("a" "b" "c" "d"))
2017-04-24T04:05:15Z beach: krator44: And what is the signature of CONCATENATE-WITH-DIVIDER?
2017-04-24T04:05:35Z krator44: (&key items divider)
2017-04-24T04:06:01Z beach: I don't see a problem with that.
2017-04-24T04:06:19Z krator44: interesting
2017-04-24T04:06:31Z krator44: ok so it should work
2017-04-24T04:06:35Z krator44: it works ok when i use nil..
2017-04-24T04:06:44Z beach: Are you sure the problem is in that call?
2017-04-24T04:06:50Z krator44: oh i just got it
2017-04-24T04:06:56Z krator44: yea never mind
2017-04-24T04:07:03Z krator44: it's in the recursive call within that function
2017-04-24T04:07:13Z beach: Yeah, that would explain it.
2017-04-24T04:08:01Z krator44: thanks
2017-04-24T04:08:04Z krator44: sorry to waste time
2017-04-24T04:08:48Z krator44: is there a built-in that does that by the way
2017-04-24T04:09:14Z krator44: i want "a, b, c, d" as the return
2017-04-24T04:09:28Z Bike: naw.
2017-04-24T04:09:32Z beach: You could try FORMAT.
2017-04-24T04:09:48Z krator44: yes aside from format
2017-04-24T04:09:59Z beach: You are very demanding.
2017-04-24T04:10:24Z White_Flame: FORMAT is the built-in way
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2017-04-24T04:11:36Z krator44: the only thing i know of format is ~a and ~%
2017-04-24T04:12:10Z White_Flame: there's a ton of stuff in there.  I certainly don't have it all memorized; that's what google's for
2017-04-24T04:12:23Z Bike: it's not great to do with format anyway.
2017-04-24T04:14:46Z krator44: why not
2017-04-24T04:16:21Z nyef: Is it even possible to do with format, without using one invocation to prep the control string for another?
2017-04-24T04:16:50Z Bike: not that i'm aware
2017-04-24T04:16:53Z beach: Maybe not.
2017-04-24T04:17:19Z pillton: (format nil "~{~A~^, ~}" '("a" "b" "c" "d")) => "a, b, c, d"
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2017-04-24T04:17:49Z nyef: pillton: Sure, that much, but with a parameterizable separator?
2017-04-24T04:18:56Z White_Flame: ~/ can call an aribtrary function, so that's technically not nested FORMAT strings
2017-04-24T04:19:08Z nyef: ... ~^, huh? I'll have to look at that... later.
2017-04-24T04:19:49Z Bike: ~^ just means to break out of the {} if there's no more arguments
2017-04-24T04:19:58Z White_Flame: but I did think that there was some directive for "pull this arbitrary field from the function parameters" to substitute inline literal parameters.  I guess not
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2017-04-24T04:20:08Z loke`: nyef: I'm not sure that's possible. ~{ traverses down into a sublist, so it won't be able to access the custom separator.
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2017-04-24T04:21:27Z loke`: You normally don't want to create dynamic format strings, as that will prevent the formatter to be compiled.
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2017-04-24T04:22:00Z nyef: Yeah, that's about as far as I got.
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2017-04-24T04:22:28Z krator44: you'd think that there would be a map that does that
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2017-04-24T04:22:34Z nyef: White_Flame: There's a way to pull a literal parameter, but the problem is that the parameter isn't available at that point.
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2017-04-24T04:23:01Z krator44: like.. indicate that the item is last on the list or something
2017-04-24T04:23:08Z krator44: it seems a common enough task
2017-04-24T04:24:10Z krator44: at least convert it to ("a" ", " "b"..) etc.
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2017-04-24T04:24:52Z loke`: I think alexandria has a function for that.
2017-04-24T04:28:38Z White_Flame: does SPLIT-SEQUENCE have an inverse?
2017-04-24T04:28:40Z krator44: oh i'm not using any extensions yet
2017-04-24T04:29:08Z White_Flame: krator44: then it's probably a good idea to just roll your own, to get familiar with things
2017-04-24T04:30:01Z loke`: White_Flame: FORMAT. The only reason not to use it is if you need to have the separator customisable.
2017-04-24T04:30:21Z beach: Here is a psychological phenomenon that ought to be documented.  People often complain or at least are surprised that some function they need is not in the standard.  But then they gladly turn around and use a language that doesn't even HAVE a standard.
2017-04-24T04:30:23Z beach: Go figure.
2017-04-24T04:30:59Z White_Flame: "standard" doesn't mean anything to people
2017-04-24T04:31:17Z beach: It does to the people who complain as I pointed out.
2017-04-24T04:31:18Z aeth: alexandria is the standard.
2017-04-24T04:31:28Z White_Flame: if a langauge comes with a rich standard library, even though it's not an official ANSI/ISO/FOOBAR Standard, it's still practical to use
2017-04-24T04:31:29Z loke`: beach: Yeah. It's complain about Javascript how it doesn't have a linked list.
2017-04-24T04:31:34Z aeth: Alexandria is the standard thing for people to reach out to when it's not built-in.
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2017-04-24T04:32:18Z White_Flame: and those standard libraries have full documentation, even if the language itself isn't "standardized" in the way CL is
2017-04-24T04:33:22Z aeth: I think the reason people are shocked that something isn't in the standard because the way most people learn CL probably goes like this: (1) reimplement everything from a small subset of the language. (2) gradually replace things with things the language provides that they're shocked the language provides.
2017-04-24T04:33:27Z presiden search for alexandria
2017-04-24T04:33:29Z aeth: (3) suddenly become shocked when not everything is #2
2017-04-24T04:34:11Z White_Flame: another thing is because of the standardization process CL got locked into, the language hasn't updated to bring new stuff into the standard itself.  While other "unstandardized" languages release new versions that keep up with the times
2017-04-24T04:34:14Z loke`: aeth: I thin kyou're right, and it also points out that Lisp should be taught differently. It should be taught as a practical language to do stuff in.
2017-04-24T04:35:59Z White_Flame: Lisp is appropriate for both purposes:  Exploring the nature of languages in a academic dissection & build-up, and for practical use.  I agree that too much has been only put on the former
2017-04-24T04:36:08Z aeth: It'd be interesting to do a survey as to how many people went through a phase of "oh wow, that's in the standard? time to simplify my old code that poorly half-reimplemented something in the standard"
2017-04-24T04:36:15Z beach: White_Flame: So if they just ignored the Common Lisp standard, they would be in the same situation.  Instead, they complain.
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2017-04-24T04:36:40Z White_Flame: beach: people are used to large standard libraries, I think it's as simple as that
2017-04-24T04:37:00Z PuercoPop: beach: I think in that case they only care that it is availabe out of the box
2017-04-24T04:37:03Z aeth: White_Flame: "Unstandardized" languages have one official, dominant version and a bunch of much smaller, much less feature complete versions that are generally targeting niches like JVM and JavaScript.
2017-04-24T04:37:05Z White_Flame: (and yet C and C++ are still wildly popular, with their ad-hoc library ecosystem similar to lisp)
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2017-04-24T04:37:34Z beach: White_Flame: That too.
2017-04-24T04:37:48Z aeth: White_Flame: CL is healthier than most other languages because it has more than two major implementations, more like C++ than Python or Ruby.
2017-04-24T04:38:05Z aeth: But that also means that there's a concept of portability that holds back what you can do.
2017-04-24T04:38:36Z White_Flame: right, it'd be nice for all the trivial-* portability layers to become an add-on standard
2017-04-24T04:38:38Z pillton: White_Flame: I have encountered people which use the terms language and library as if they are the same thing.
2017-04-24T04:38:39Z aeth: If we were all using SBCL, you *could* just extend sequences, for instance. (This is a major complaint missing feature.)
2017-04-24T04:40:59Z pillton: You also have to remember what the "common" in common lisp means.
2017-04-24T04:43:28Z aeth: pillton: how do you distinguish between the language of CL and the standard library of CL?
2017-04-24T04:44:06Z aeth: You could, if it were designed that way, say that e.g. do and loop and mapfoo etc. are actually really just tagbody + go, eventually. Which they usually are. But it's not required to be that way.
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2017-04-24T04:44:44Z aeth: There isn't really a "core" language like in e.g. modern Scheme
2017-04-24T04:44:52Z pillton: There is no standard library. Your use of the word standard means popular.
2017-04-24T04:45:41Z pillton: The common lisp hyperspec outlines everything a conforming common lisp implementation is to provide.
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2017-04-24T04:50:42Z beach: PuercoPop: Yes, I think you are right.  People only look at "out of the box" and when it comes to Common Lisp, they confuse "out of the box" with the standard.
2017-04-24T04:52:48Z beach: PuercoPop: That also explains why some people complain about some missing feature in the Common Lisp standard, but they gladly use C or C++ in which the feature is missing from the standard as well.  Except the feature is provided by the Unix environment they are using, so it's "out of the box".
2017-04-24T04:53:38Z White_Flame: of course, that's comparable to implementation-specific features, but they tend to learn for CL tutorials not SBCL/CCL/CLISP/etc tutorials
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2017-04-24T04:54:39Z krator44: i wasn't really complaining but.. it is nice when a language has an extensive standard library
2017-04-24T04:54:48Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, indeed.  Again, they don't seem to care, probably because they use the only dominant implementation.
2017-04-24T04:55:05Z White_Flame: krator44: Lisp has extensive libraries
2017-04-24T04:55:16Z White_Flame: *Common Lisp
2017-04-24T04:56:58Z beach: krator44: See, that's the problem.  Languages such as C or C++ do not have extensive standard libraries.  They come with Posix, which should probably be compared to Quicklisp for Common Lisp.  And languages like Python don't have a standard, so they don't have any standard libraries.
2017-04-24T04:57:51Z White_Flame: Python has standard libraries
2017-04-24T04:58:41Z beach: White_Flame: In my definition of "standard", I require a document describing the library or language that is published by an organization different from the one that provided one or more implementations.
2017-04-24T04:59:01Z White_Flame: that's not "standard", that's "industry standards body"
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2017-04-24T04:59:27Z White_Flame: anybody can have "the standard", if they've documented it and are the most common point of reference
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2017-04-24T05:01:56Z White_Flame: and I"m not alone in my opinion that while the ANSI CL standard might have been desirable back in the industry heydays of Lisp, it's an albatross for progress now
2017-04-24T05:02:15Z pillton: What is it inhibiting?
2017-04-24T05:02:41Z White_Flame: it foments thinking like Beach's, where there's no true successor until it's been approved by an industry standards body
2017-04-24T05:03:56Z pillton: The common lisp standard emerged from a critical mass. The existence of the standard doesn't inhibit the formation of a new critical mass.
2017-04-24T05:04:00Z White_Flame: and nothing is accepted to update the standard, because it's assumed to be an undertaking of the industry, with commercial vendors funding & organizing standardization committees
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2017-04-24T05:04:39Z White_Flame: there is resistance to a new critical mass from adherence to the existing standard
2017-04-24T05:05:06Z White_Flame: and again, the attitudes I've seen are dismissive of any new formative masses if there's no standards bodies involved
2017-04-24T05:05:54Z White_Flame: now, there are things like Clojure, which are mostly clean-room of CL's specifics, which don't necessarily require transition from Common Lisp's audience
2017-04-24T05:06:07Z White_Flame: but that doesn't help CL itself
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2017-04-24T05:07:44Z beach: White_Flame: I think you definition of "standard" makes it pretty useless.  With that definition, there could be simultaneous, conflicting standards, and the definition of the standard could change over time in arbitrary ways.  Any project leader in industry who decides to use such a language should be fired.
2017-04-24T05:08:20Z White_Flame: just look at academic publishing.  There's rinkydink publications that nobody takes seriously, and there are serious publications that are.  Who decides?
2017-04-24T05:08:23Z loke___: beach: Yet project leaders choose to use Python?
2017-04-24T05:08:35Z beach: loke___: And they should be fired.
2017-04-24T05:08:42Z loke___: beach: Oh I agree with you there.
2017-04-24T05:08:44Z White_Flame: Which standard do you use to determine Real Standards Bodies, vs just the rinkydink ones?
2017-04-24T05:09:08Z loke___: beach: But unfortunately, Python is taken seriously in industry. It's horrific but true.
2017-04-24T05:09:43Z loke`: Also, why am I IRCing on the same channel from two machines at the same time?
2017-04-24T05:10:53Z pillton: White_Flame: I'd gladly switch to a lisp which i) was a lisp2 ii) defined something better then packages iii) had first class environments and provided a CL compatibility layer.
2017-04-24T05:11:08Z White_Flame: that's good to hear
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2017-04-24T05:12:06Z beach: White_Flame: A project leader for a major project in industry who is unable to distinguish between serious standard bodies and the others should be fired.
2017-04-24T05:12:07Z loke`: pillton: I'm with you, if we also added continuations to that.
2017-04-24T05:12:19Z White_Flame: beach: in other words, it's judgment?
2017-04-24T05:12:20Z krator44: loke`: i didnt realize you were also in ##physics
2017-04-24T05:12:34Z beach: White_Flame: It is known as "experience".
2017-04-24T05:12:40Z White_Flame: so it's not standardized
2017-04-24T05:12:42Z White_Flame: I think that confirms my point
2017-04-24T05:12:43Z loke`: krator44: I am, why is that surprising?
2017-04-24T05:12:45Z krator44: you should just use a bouncer
2017-04-24T05:12:48Z White_Flame: regarding the "common point of reference"
2017-04-24T05:12:57Z White_Flame: in a practical, experiential, judgment sense
2017-04-24T05:13:12Z krator44: loke`: it's not surprising
2017-04-24T05:13:58Z pillton: White_Flame: I'd also like to see proposals put forward for SIMD operators.
2017-04-24T05:15:27Z krator44: pillton: isn't that highly implementation specific
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2017-04-24T05:17:08Z pillton: It would be implementation specific now but I don't see why it has to be.
2017-04-24T05:17:16Z pillton: ...for all time.
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2017-04-24T05:25:44Z krator44: anyway i don't see how a language whose defining characteristic is its ability to specify domain-specific syntax would be encumbered by some kind of a standards setting committee
2017-04-24T05:26:31Z krator44: c++ is in a completely different situation
2017-04-24T05:27:56Z krator44: where the standards committee has trouble coordinating its efforts but features cannot otherwise be added to the language
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2017-04-24T05:29:20Z White_Flame: ad-hoc features certainly can be added to C in the same way it is in Javascript, by "transpiling"
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2017-04-24T05:29:47Z White_Flame: and of course there are tons of implementation-specific extensions to C as well
2017-04-24T05:32:01Z beach: White_Flame: My favorite characterization of the work done by people like project leaders and engineers is that they are "pruners of decision trees".  There are just too many decisions to be made, and evaluating each possible outcome would take too long and cost too much.  These people use their experience to eliminate large parts of the decision tree because they estimate that the decisions therein are inferior to the others.
2017-04-24T05:32:02Z beach: If decisions could be made base on objective criteria, these people could (and should) be eliminated in favor of low-level admin staff or even spreadsheet programs.  Unfortunately, the software industry often employs project leaders with completely insufficient training and experience.  The result is, as we observe, projects that are years behind schedule and an order of magnitude over budget.
2017-04-24T05:32:41Z White_Flame: well, from the business end it's widely believed that everything is based on metrics
2017-04-24T05:32:49Z White_Flame: but that's simply not true
2017-04-24T05:33:11Z White_Flame: no metrics and objective predicates are sufficient to rely on for business decisions
2017-04-24T05:33:20Z pillton: The enforcement of a metric makes the metric useless.
2017-04-24T05:33:46Z beach: White_Flame: Yes, including which standards bodies are serious and which ones are not.
2017-04-24T05:33:53Z White_Flame: right, that's an additional confounding factor.  That's why it doesn't work in practice, yet it also doesn't really work in theory
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2017-04-24T05:35:34Z White_Flame: beach: my point about selection of standards bodies extends to selection of whether or not python's published specs count as "standard".  Who is to say that they're not a valid publisher of that standard?
2017-04-24T05:36:00Z White_Flame: they've had maturity and continuity of being the standard bearer, regardless of the quality of the language
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2017-04-24T05:37:17Z beach: Whenever the so-called "standard" is written by the same set of people who provide the implementation, as a project leader, I would be very reluctant to consider it a good basis for a project because of what I said above.
2017-04-24T05:37:57Z White_Flame: sure, that's your preference.  But it doesn't make it more or less qualified as a "standard"
2017-04-24T05:40:00Z beach: In a programming project, it is less important to determine the exact word for it, than it is to determine whether it can be relied upon as a basis for the software to be developed.
2017-04-24T05:40:30Z White_Flame: well, your initial argument was that the word "standard" should not be applied to python
2017-04-24T05:40:42Z White_Flame: and only to publications from industry standards bodies
2017-04-24T05:40:51Z White_Flame: so that's certainly seeming ot place importance on the exact word
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2017-04-24T05:41:05Z beach: I don't think I ever used the term "industry standard bodies".
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2017-04-24T05:42:23Z White_Flame: right, that's the shorthand implication I used for your wording of " I require a document describing the library or language that is published by an organization different from the one that provided one or more implementations."
2017-04-24T05:42:57Z White_Flame: which in practice tends to be such industry bodies
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2017-04-24T05:59:18Z ecraven: are there any images or videos of Lambda Delta yet?
2017-04-24T06:00:45Z beach: What is "Lambda Delta"?  Some kind of US fraternity?
2017-04-24T06:01:21Z White_Flame: heh
2017-04-24T06:02:07Z presiden: probably a band name
2017-04-24T06:02:19Z ecraven: https://github.com/dseagrav/ld, LMI Lambda emulator
2017-04-24T06:02:27Z beach: Ah, OK.
2017-04-24T06:05:29Z loke___: ecraven: Where can I find the rom images?
2017-04-24T06:05:34Z loke___: and the operating system?
2017-04-24T06:07:11Z ecraven: I haven't tried yet, but they should be on bitsavers, and it seems Daniel Seagraves is working on finishing a 5.0 release (which was in a prototype phase when LMI ended). That can be found https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/ds.storage.0000/Lambda-Release5.tar.gz
2017-04-24T06:07:21Z ecraven: I haven't tried it myself yet :-/
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2017-04-24T07:03:53Z loke___: ecraven: Did that link work for you? (the lambda release one)
2017-04-24T07:04:28Z ecraven: loke___: I ran into problems compiling ld, so I did not investigate further yet :-/
2017-04-24T07:04:35Z ecraven: there's another link with the git repo
2017-04-24T07:04:44Z loke___: ecraven: What problem? It compiled fine for me.
2017-04-24T07:05:08Z ecraven: I'm not good with autotools, just running autoconf or autoreconf does not lead to a working configure script here :-/
2017-04-24T07:05:15Z loke___: You just run:
2017-04-24T07:05:19Z loke___: "autoreconf -fvi"
2017-04-24T07:05:22Z loke___: then configure and make
2017-04-24T07:05:45Z loke___: That said, autotools really does suck donkey balls.
2017-04-24T07:06:05Z ecraven: well, this is just my lack of knowledge on how to properly run things :-) thank you!
2017-04-24T07:06:28Z ecraven: great, compiled fine now ;)
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2017-04-24T07:11:24Z ecraven: loke___: hm.. when running ../src/lam in examples (where ld.conf is) after copying tapes/ there, I get SDU:open: No such file or directory
2017-04-24T07:11:52Z ecraven: seems to need roms/SDU.rom
2017-04-24T07:11:55Z loke___: ecraven: Yeah. I thought that was because it was trying to open the rom file?
2017-04-24T07:12:08Z ecraven: now where would I get that :-)
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2017-04-24T07:13:04Z p_l: ecraven: bitsavers? ;-)
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2017-04-24T07:13:52Z ecraven: p_l: yea, trying to find them there ;)
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2017-04-24T07:19:02Z p_l: I need to add LD to my collection...and patch it for virtual network, same with other emulators :-|
2017-04-24T07:20:33Z ecraven: loke___: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/LMI/  should have the roms, but I have no idea where :-/
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2017-04-24T08:13:17Z beach: What should I call an operation that transforms the list (x y1 y2 ... yn) to the list ((x y1) (x y2) ... (x yn))?
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2017-04-24T08:16:02Z flip214: beach: prefix-with ?
2017-04-24T08:16:18Z beach: That's an idea.
2017-04-24T08:16:58Z beach: I have this impression that there is a kind of standard name for it.  But maybe I am thinking of some kind of APL operator.
2017-04-24T08:16:59Z flip214: (mapcar (curry #'cons (first input)) (rest input)) ..... hardly a function, right?  ;)
2017-04-24T08:17:21Z flip214: oh sorry, #'list, not #'cons
2017-04-24T08:17:39Z beach: The thing is, I need to use it several times in different methods, so I had better make it a separate function.
2017-04-24T08:17:49Z flip214: yeah, of course.
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2017-04-24T08:22:25Z jackdaniel: is it some kind of unrolled map used in macro?
2017-04-24T08:23:30Z beach: It is not used in a macro.  It is used in methods for canonicalizing declaration specifiers so that (ignore a b c) become ((ignore a) (ignore b) (ignore c))
2017-04-24T08:23:41Z jackdaniel: ah, OK
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2017-04-24T08:25:29Z beach: I think I'll call it MAP-PREFIX.  Thanks flip214 for the `prefix' idea.
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2017-04-24T08:33:27Z White_Flame: is there a common name for ((key val) (key val) ...) style lists?  we call them m-lists
2017-04-24T08:33:48Z loke`: White_Flame: That's just an alist where each value is a list
2017-04-24T08:34:06Z loke`: ((key . (val)) (key . ((val))))
2017-04-24T08:34:12Z White_Flame: well, it's an alist where the value is held in a 1-element list specfically
2017-04-24T08:34:23Z White_Flame: but an a-list is just a list, so it's kind of a degenerate statement
2017-04-24T08:34:27Z loke`: White_Flame: Well, that
2017-04-24T08:34:28Z White_Flame: the label implies a style of use
2017-04-24T08:35:27Z jackdaniel: is there a point in using (and providing accessors) such kind of structure instead of alist?
2017-04-24T08:35:54Z jackdaniel: s/accessors/accessors to/
2017-04-24T08:36:12Z White_Flame: it works very well for our Member matching operation (hence the "m" in m-list), and it serializes better to languages that can't do dotted lists
2017-04-24T08:36:40Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks
2017-04-24T08:37:05Z flip214: beach: you're welcome!
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2017-04-24T08:45:06Z xificurC: please please tell me how can I run an sbcl command without the initial splash screen?
2017-04-24T08:46:01Z xificurC: I'm comparing various scripting runtimes' startup time for a hello world script. So I'm looking for the equivalent of `bash -c 'echo hi'`
2017-04-24T08:46:54Z White_Flame: --script is probably your best bet
2017-04-24T08:47:01Z Josh_2: Going out on a limb here but you put #!/bin/sbcl --script ?? at the top of the program?
2017-04-24T08:47:35Z shka: you can also use roswell to have all sort of lisp for scripts
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2017-04-24T08:48:51Z phoe: ^
2017-04-24T08:49:46Z jackdaniel: xificurC: sbcl --noinform
2017-04-24T08:50:05Z jackdaniel: for skipping the banner
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2017-04-24T08:53:48Z xificurC: jackdaniel: --noinform was it, thanks. It's not in `sbcl --help` so I didn't find it
2017-04-24T08:54:33Z xificurC: Josh_2: I am running from the command line with no files, so there's no program to put a shebang into
2017-04-24T08:54:41Z jackdaniel: xificurC: for automatic scripts (to time them) running it as script (as others pointed out) will be better though
2017-04-24T08:54:54Z jackdaniel: you won't have even `*`
2017-04-24T08:55:02Z xificurC: shka: while that's a good option it would add more overhead to the startup, which is what I'm trying to measure
2017-04-24T08:55:10Z shka: ok
2017-04-24T08:55:12Z jackdaniel: eventually you may do: sbcl --noinform --eval "(my-something)" --eval "(quit)"
2017-04-24T08:55:34Z xificurC: jackdaniel: that's what I'm doing right now, thanks
2017-04-24T08:56:05Z flip214: or even better: sbcl --noinform --eval "(my-something)" --quit
2017-04-24T08:56:12Z jackdaniel: before evals you may want: --no-userinit --no-sysinit --disable-debugger
2017-04-24T08:56:58Z xificurC: jackdaniel: what do I lose with --no-sysinit? What is it that it actually skips loading?
2017-04-24T08:56:59Z jackdaniel: or --non-interactive to skip both disable-debugger and quit according to the manual
2017-04-24T08:57:31Z jackdaniel: I *think* that it skips loading system-wide .sbclrc placed *somewhere*, which probably is non-existent by default
2017-04-24T08:58:08Z phoe: unless you have quicklisp or such
2017-04-24T08:58:23Z jackdaniel: phoe: that's --no-userinit usually
2017-04-24T08:59:07Z xificurC: yeah loading quicklisp takes a while
2017-04-24T08:59:09Z phoe: jackdaniel: quicklisp's loader is put in .sbclrc though, so I wouldn't claim it's non-existent by default
2017-04-24T08:59:19Z phoe: since quicklisp is pretty popular.
2017-04-24T08:59:39Z jackdaniel: phoe: he was asking about --no-sysinit. --no-userinit prevents loading ~/.sbclrc
2017-04-24T08:59:54Z ogamita: beach: I've seen it named distribute.
2017-04-24T08:59:57Z jackdaniel: unless you keep your .sbclrc in system-wide location – do you?
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2017-04-24T09:00:27Z phoe: jackdaniel: you're correct, mine is in my homedir
2017-04-24T09:01:24Z ogamita: beach:  (defun distribute (e list) (mapcar (curry #'list e) list))  (defun distribute (e list) (cartesian-product (list e) list))
2017-04-24T09:03:10Z ogamita: or left-distribute, and (defun right-distribute (e list) (cartesian-product list (list e)))
2017-04-24T09:03:31Z loke`: Ah, so the function should clearly be called ⍉
2017-04-24T09:03:52Z loke`: Sorry, I meant ∘.,
2017-04-24T09:04:02Z ogamita: Ok.
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2017-04-24T09:05:15Z ogamita: I've seen cartesian product written as  A × B.
2017-04-24T09:05:19Z beach: ogamita: Thanks.  But in fact I lied.  It is not really a list of items, but a concrete syntax tree, so I can't use standard list operations.
2017-04-24T09:05:55Z beach: ogamita: So, I know how to write the function.  I was just looking for a name.
2017-04-24T09:06:18Z ogamita: beach: I know you know how to write it, I just cannot resist to the pleasure of writing them!
2017-04-24T09:06:30Z beach: Granted.
2017-04-24T09:07:18Z loke`: ogamita: You sure your nickname isn't WJ? :-)
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2017-04-24T09:07:39Z mazoe: mornin #lisp
2017-04-24T09:07:39Z minion: mazoe, memo from phoe: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2017-04-24T09:08:08Z beach: Hello mazoe.
2017-04-24T09:08:27Z mazoe: phoe: ooh, thanks for the link
2017-04-24T09:09:17Z mazoe: hah that's great
2017-04-24T09:09:34Z loke`: It is funny how in the olden days, people wrote Lisp code by putting newlines once they hit the end of the line.
2017-04-24T09:09:44Z ogamita: loke`: (equal ogamita pjb)
2017-04-24T09:10:11Z phoe: Hey everyone
2017-04-24T09:10:11Z jackdaniel: isn't it even eq?
2017-04-24T09:10:22Z jackdaniel: :)
2017-04-24T09:10:24Z loke`: ogamita: Thanks for remidning me, but the joke about WJ still remains (for it was a joke)
2017-04-24T09:10:25Z ogamita: loke`: they had no choice, it wasn't an end-of-the-line, but rather an end-of-the-punch-card.
2017-04-24T09:10:26Z mazoe: hey phoe
2017-04-24T09:11:06Z loke`: ogamita: right, but I think in many case it would have made sense to put the line break at more sensible places.
2017-04-24T09:11:18Z ogamita: jackdaniel: I leave the possibility of some teletransport.
2017-04-24T09:11:24Z splittist: punchcards don't grow on trees. Oh, wait...
2017-04-24T09:11:28Z loke`: That said, now that I'm thinking of punch cards, that probably wasn't an issue, and such indentation/lie breaks probably didn't help on the cards.
2017-04-24T09:12:21Z jackdaniel: ogamita: hah, good one :)
2017-04-24T09:12:22Z ogamita: loke`: No, actually they wrote code on paper first, and then the punch cards could be filled (by secretaries actually) and weren't used to be read.  Then they assumed a pretty-printer for the listing.
2017-04-24T09:12:37Z loke`: ogamita: Oh really?
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2017-04-24T09:12:57Z loke`: I knew about the human punches
2017-04-24T09:13:13Z phoe: This is a daily reminder that we have a slowly growing project called Lisp Guild, where people who have some tasks to be done can post them, and people who want to practice and gain experience on real-life code can grab these tasks and do them. https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1 <- currently 4 tasks to be done, but feel free to post more.
2017-04-24T09:13:28Z ogamita: loke`: yes. The only reason to split an expression over several punch cards would be to help debugging the programs (replacing a card by another).
2017-04-24T09:13:35Z daemoz: phoe: awesome. thanks
2017-04-24T09:13:49Z loke`: But I never thought that the card was a 1-to-1 mapping to the paper. That's why they had programming forms after all?
2017-04-24T09:13:50Z loke`: http://blog.bounceweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/old_cobol_formcobol-as-a-programing-language.jpg
2017-04-24T09:13:52Z phoe: So if you, who's reading these words, wants to get some Lisp practice on small, well-defined tasks while being able to get help from the Lisp community - grab one of these.
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2017-04-24T09:14:25Z phoe: daemoz: no problem.
2017-04-24T09:14:33Z jackdaniel: phoe: and how do I add things there?
2017-04-24T09:15:13Z phoe: jackdaniel: I need to add you as a GitHub contributor. Gimme a moment...
2017-04-24T09:16:06Z ogamita: phoe: nice, I may add some tasks eventually…
2017-04-24T09:16:24Z phoe: ogamita: gimme your GitHub nick.
2017-04-24T09:16:34Z phoe: I'll add you as well.
2017-04-24T09:16:48Z ogamita: informatimago https://github.com/informatimago/
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2017-04-24T09:18:36Z White_Flame just now got where your irc handle is from :-P
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2017-04-24T09:19:11Z ecraven: phoe: hm.. I can give the german translation a go ;)
2017-04-24T09:19:25Z phoe: ecraven: a german translation of what?
2017-04-24T09:19:30Z beach: ecraven: That would be fantastic.
2017-04-24T09:19:35Z beach: phoe: One of the tasks.
2017-04-24T09:20:08Z beach: ecraven: If you do, send a pull request to me.
2017-04-24T09:20:20Z phoe: Oooh, I see.
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2017-04-24T09:20:48Z phoe: Good!
2017-04-24T09:21:20Z beach: ecraven: There is some German in the file transforms.lisp as well.
2017-04-24T09:21:31Z beach: Not as much as in regions.lisp.
2017-04-24T09:22:22Z jackdaniel: ecraven: that would be fantastic
2017-04-24T09:22:58Z jackdaniel: oh, beach wrote the same things a few lines above. How unoriginal of me
2017-04-24T09:23:30Z ogamita: jackdaniel: you're just flakier on the punctuation.
2017-04-24T09:23:55Z jackdaniel: indeed
2017-04-24T09:24:21Z beach: How come I don't see what you wrote?
2017-04-24T09:24:24Z ecraven: just trying to understand what the german actually means, very mathy :D
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2017-04-24T09:24:34Z phoe: beach: what do you mean?
2017-04-24T09:25:08Z beach: Oh, now I get it.  Sorry.  *blush*
2017-04-24T09:25:19Z beach: I thought jackdaniel had made an entry on the Guild.
2017-04-24T09:25:31Z phoe: Haha, no problem.
2017-04-24T09:25:48Z jackdaniel: no, I have just barely shaked urgent tasks, now I'm getting to important ones
2017-04-24T09:25:55Z jackdaniel: I'm going to assign new McCLIM bounties today
2017-04-24T09:26:03Z beach: Great!
2017-04-24T09:26:36Z jackdaniel: if I'll get on roll, I'll maybe manage to merge some code and make an iteration report
2017-04-24T09:26:47Z jackdaniel: if I won't, then it will take more time :-)
2017-04-24T09:27:23Z jackdaniel: s/an/the/
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2017-04-24T09:37:44Z phoe: beach: on an unrelated note, see? You seem to remember pretty well how to find and use the Guild.
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2017-04-24T09:38:26Z beach: I still have the web page up. :)  Wait until I am forced by the software updater to restart Firefox or even reboot my computer.
2017-04-24T09:39:03Z beach: But, yeah, that will happen only once a month or so.
2017-04-24T09:39:42Z phoe: beach: Got it, I see. :P
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2017-04-24T09:40:53Z beach: phoe: People like me (with unacceptable memory) learn to use tricks to compensate.
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2017-04-24T09:44:16Z phoe: beach: I see.
2017-04-24T09:46:17Z ecraven: phoe, beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/issues/157
2017-04-24T09:46:26Z ecraven: as best I could ;)
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2017-04-24T09:47:25Z flip214: ugh.
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2017-04-24T09:47:38Z flip214: no umlauts, and some other errors in the german text as well.
2017-04-24T09:47:48Z flip214: guess you should just remove that in the commit.
2017-04-24T09:47:56Z beach: ecraven: I believe you.  Thanks!
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2017-04-24T09:48:08Z phoe: ecraven: now that's one more proof that the Guild is working~ Awesome!
2017-04-24T09:48:23Z jackdaniel: wow, that was fast :)
2017-04-24T09:48:53Z jackdaniel: thanks ecraven
2017-04-24T09:49:11Z beach: jackdaniel: I merged the pull request.
2017-04-24T09:49:41Z ecraven: jackdaniel: very welcome, the least I can do ;)
2017-04-24T09:50:04Z ecraven: if anyone has specific questions, I'll gladly try to help (though I'm no mathematician, so I don't understand some of the actual code ;)
2017-04-24T09:50:30Z flip214: ecraven: why not remove the german text?
2017-04-24T09:50:47Z beach: Oh, yes.  There is no point in keeping it.
2017-04-24T09:51:18Z ecraven: ah, I left it in in case my translation was misleading or incomplete
2017-04-24T09:51:47Z ecraven: I can change the PR to remove the german text, if you want that
2017-04-24T09:51:51Z flip214: ecraven: no, your translation was very good!
2017-04-24T09:51:53Z beach: Too late!
2017-04-24T09:51:58Z flip214: at least the first 90% that I read ;)
2017-04-24T09:52:14Z beach: ecraven: I can remove the German text.  Don't worry.
2017-04-24T09:52:14Z ecraven: hehe, I can also make a second PR
2017-04-24T09:52:19Z beach: Oh, OK.
2017-04-24T09:52:25Z beach: Thanks.
2017-04-24T09:52:32Z ecraven: also, there are a few symbols that are named german, should they be renamed?
2017-04-24T09:52:47Z phoe: ecraven: make sure that your commit message is something like, "remove german comments" so this is later findable in the logs
2017-04-24T09:52:58Z beach: ecraven: Let's leave that for now.  I am not sure what depends on those.
2017-04-24T09:52:59Z phoe: ecraven: can you make a list of these symbols and where they are in the code?
2017-04-24T09:53:03Z ecraven: will do. I'll do it after lunch, have to go now ;)
2017-04-24T09:53:09Z ecraven: phoe: will do
2017-04-24T09:53:10Z phoe: changing symbols is more trobulesome than comments
2017-04-24T09:53:13Z phoe: ecraven: bon appetit!
2017-04-24T09:53:13Z ecraven: yea, I know
2017-04-24T09:54:55Z phoe: easye: thanks for the assist on Reddit :P
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2017-04-24T09:56:07Z loke`: phoe: What happened on reddit?
2017-04-24T09:56:20Z phoe: loke`: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/676cse/watson_iot_with_common_lisp/dgodg7z/
2017-04-24T09:56:42Z phoe: minor assist with linking
2017-04-24T09:58:11Z loke`: I see
2017-04-24T09:58:14Z loke`: Interesting article btw
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2017-04-24T10:04:08Z phoe: yes, it is!
2017-04-24T10:04:37Z easye: He shoulda shown the curl part with Drakma...
2017-04-24T10:04:52Z easye: But other than that, it is a great article for the Bear.
2017-04-24T10:05:08Z phoe: It is, yes.
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2017-04-24T10:11:06Z shka: oh, i need to read it!
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2017-04-24T10:16:43Z easye sighs https://github.com/fsmunoz/cl-watson-iot-example/blob/master/cl-watson-iot.lisp#L24
2017-04-24T10:18:42Z phoe: easye: it's hard to bruteforce though, most people assume that passwords contain alphabetic characters and will bruteforce also using letters!!1
2017-04-24T10:19:22Z shka: most people will use rainbow tables
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2017-04-24T10:20:50Z shka: i takes way less time to crack something with that
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2017-04-24T10:23:25Z shaftoe: should be (defparameter *password* SET-A-STRONG-PASSWORD)
2017-04-24T10:23:48Z shaftoe: which should cause your interpreter to complain the first time they try to use it
2017-04-24T10:23:51Z ecraven: ok, PR sent ;)
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2017-04-24T10:30:36Z phoe: shaftoe: with SET-A-STRONG-PASSWORD being a symbol macro that expands to (error ...)
2017-04-24T10:30:39Z phoe: sounds good
2017-04-24T10:31:09Z phoe: shaftoe: PR? I can't see it
2017-04-24T10:31:12Z phoe: I mean
2017-04-24T10:31:14Z phoe: ecraven: ^
2017-04-24T10:31:38Z ecraven: phoe: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/pull/160
2017-04-24T10:31:48Z phoe: ecraven: ooh, this one - I thought about the password
2017-04-24T10:32:09Z jackdaniel: ecraven: merged, thanks!
2017-04-24T10:32:11Z ecraven: ah, sorry, didn't read up
2017-04-24T10:32:16Z ecraven: jackdaniel: thank you ;)
2017-04-24T10:32:53Z jackdaniel: you are the person who should be thanked :) I've just scrolled if it's fine and pressed one button :p
2017-04-24T10:34:18Z ecraven: yea, but I'm hoping for all the awesomeness that'll come out of your hard work, so this miniscule contribution is the least I can do to help with getting there ;)
2017-04-24T10:34:34Z phoe: shaftoe: https://github.com/fsmunoz/cl-watson-iot-example/issues/1
2017-04-24T10:37:50Z shaftoe: good stuff
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2017-04-24T10:52:54Z phoe: ha, and I got a response
2017-04-24T10:52:57Z phoe: that was quick
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2017-04-24T13:10:56Z malice`: Hi! I thought I could use #'asdf:test-system to test my system, but it turns out that it returns T even if some of tests fail. I am using fiveam. Is this the proper behaviour of #'asdf:test-system?
2017-04-24T13:11:49Z phoe: malice`: how do you configure test-system to make it find your testware?
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2017-04-24T13:17:54Z malice`: phoe: I guess you may want to look at https://github.com/MatthewRock/cl-trie/blob/master/cl-trie.asd
2017-04-24T13:18:04Z malice`: are you asking about in-order-to test-op?
2017-04-24T13:18:10Z malice`: if so, then it is there
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2017-04-24T13:33:58Z phoe: yes, slime is broken
2017-04-24T13:34:27Z phoe: if one of the lines of a defmacro docstring begins with a #\( then the indentation and compilation breaks
2017-04-24T13:34:35Z phoe: I just encountered this on my own
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2017-04-24T13:36:14Z ogamita: phoe: yes, that's why you avoid it, or prefix it with \
2017-04-24T13:36:27Z ogamita: (string= "\(" "(")
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2017-04-24T13:37:48Z phoe: ogamita: thanks for the workaround, but it's a bug
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2017-04-24T13:41:50Z ogamita: phoe: a design flaw: font-locking only goes backward so far. It doesn't try to parse the file from the start.
2017-04-24T13:42:00Z ogamita: Therefore it could start inside a string…
2017-04-24T13:42:18Z phoe: ogamita: slime's indentation depends on fontlocking?
2017-04-24T13:42:32Z ogamita: Perhaps it uses parts of it?
2017-04-24T13:45:29Z phoe: I don't know - I never worked on slime from this perspective.
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2017-04-24T13:53:02Z _death: it's not a slime issue, but an old emacs issue.. there was recently a lot of discussion about it on the emacs development mailing list
2017-04-24T13:54:44Z phoe: yes, I see, it's a Lisp mode limitation
2017-04-24T13:54:53Z phoe: https://github.com/slime/slime/issues/382
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2017-04-24T13:56:24Z varjag: do we have any go-to library for serializing stuff
2017-04-24T13:57:08Z phoe: varjag: yes
2017-04-24T13:57:10Z phoe: cl-store for example
2017-04-24T13:58:10Z varjag: phoe: cool thanks
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2017-04-24T16:07:56Z mcclim-desktop: Hello
2017-04-24T16:08:02Z mcclim-desktop: Testing beirc
2017-04-24T16:08:22Z mcclim-desktop is now known as loke__
2017-04-24T16:08:28Z loke__ is now known as loke_beirc
2017-04-24T16:09:10Z jackdaniel: o/
2017-04-24T16:10:20Z loke_beirc: Well, it works :-)
2017-04-24T16:10:45Z loke_beirc: I'm going to have a look at how the input field of this application works. But that's for tomorrow.
2017-04-24T16:10:48Z loke_beirc: I need to go to sleep now.
2017-04-24T16:10:57Z jackdaniel: send me notes if you have some
2017-04-24T16:11:05Z jackdaniel: s/you/you'll/
2017-04-24T16:11:37Z loke_beirc: I've been playing around with CLIM for a while, but I'm still trying to learn.
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2017-04-24T16:44:32Z thodg: I have a hard time finding out which implementations are supported by PORTABLE-THREADS
2017-04-24T16:45:04Z thodg: is it good compared to bordeaux-threads ?
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2017-04-24T16:46:37Z jackdaniel: what is "portable-threads"?
2017-04-24T16:46:59Z jackdaniel: ah, I see
2017-04-24T16:47:13Z thodg: http://www.cliki.net/Portable-Threads
2017-04-24T16:48:11Z jackdaniel: see portable-threads.lisp (look for conditionals at the beginning of the file)
2017-04-24T16:48:58Z jackdaniel: abcl, acl, clisp, ccl, cmu, corman, digitool, ecl, gcl, lw, sbcl, scl it seems
2017-04-24T16:49:32Z Bike: oh boy, asdf-install
2017-04-24T16:49:45Z jackdaniel: it looks that cliki page is just outdated
2017-04-24T16:49:50Z shrdlu68: Looking at the documentation, it seems there no way to POST binary data using trivial-http?
2017-04-24T16:50:03Z shrdlu68: s/there/there is
2017-04-24T16:50:04Z jackdaniel: i.e it's in quicklisp
2017-04-24T16:51:06Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: yes, according to documentation content is a character stream
2017-04-24T16:51:42Z jackdaniel: shrdlu68: you may convert your binary data to base64 and send it though
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2017-04-24T16:52:20Z shrdlu68: jackdaniel: Won't do, the other side expects ASN.1
2017-04-24T16:52:29Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2017-04-24T17:00:57Z shrdlu68: https://github.com/svenvc/s-http-client: "HTTPS in only implemented on LispWorks (where it was really easy)"--how does Lispworks do ssl?
2017-04-24T17:01:19Z Bike: it comes with SSL, is what that means, i think
2017-04-24T17:01:32Z Bike: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/LW/html/lw-466.htm#pgfId-909287
2017-04-24T17:01:56Z Bike: it binds to OpenSSL i guess.
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2017-04-24T17:05:11Z shrdlu68: Hm. Why doesn't quicklisp use ssl?
2017-04-24T17:05:58Z flip214: shrdlu68: use babel to convert?
2017-04-24T17:06:06Z phoe: shrdlu68: everything is checksummed AFAIK so there's less use for HTTPS
2017-04-24T17:06:11Z shka_ is updating slime
2017-04-24T17:06:15Z shka_: new toys :D
2017-04-24T17:06:20Z phoe: but also there's no portable way to use HTTPS in Lisp AFAIK
2017-04-24T17:06:20Z XachX: shrdlu68: difficulty bootstrapping. Will use pgp for verification soon.
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2017-04-24T17:06:55Z XachX: With pluggable transport you can in theory do ssl after install.
2017-04-24T17:07:16Z XachX: The files are available via https
2017-04-24T17:07:36Z shrdlu68: XachX: I've been working in an ssl in lisp, cl-tls. Would it be uselful for quicklisp?
2017-04-24T17:07:37Z _death: could also use ssl on implementations that provide it.. and then people may work to provide it
2017-04-24T17:08:07Z XachX: shrdlu68: I don't know. Maybe!
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2017-04-24T17:08:40Z XachX: I was discouraged to find that CL plus ssl does not validate at all.
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2017-04-24T17:09:08Z shrdlu68: XachX: I was wondering about that today.
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2017-04-24T17:09:32Z dlowe: I don't think any ssl implementation does by default
2017-04-24T17:09:42Z dlowe: in any language
2017-04-24T17:10:37Z shrdlu68: dlowe: I don't know about *implementation*, but most ssl clients do.
2017-04-24T17:10:59Z shrdlu68: curl, wget, your browser.
2017-04-24T17:11:14Z dlowe: yes.  They use OpenSSL and then they write the validation themselves.
2017-04-24T17:11:25Z dlowe: Because OpenSSL (and LibreSSL) don't validate by default.
2017-04-24T17:11:27Z _death: you need a pointer to the trusted certificates bundle
2017-04-24T17:11:40Z shrdlu68: So wait, cl+ssl does not do certificate validation _and_ revocation checking?
2017-04-24T17:12:25Z shrdlu68: Most systems ship with certificate bundles. It's a metter of configuring a client to find them. Otherwise ship with the bundle.
2017-04-24T17:12:43Z dlowe: hope you have a way to keep your bundle up to date
2017-04-24T17:12:44Z _death: "ship with the bundle" is silly
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2017-04-24T17:13:15Z shrdlu68: _death: Why? All you have to do is keep it up to date.
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2017-04-24T17:13:26Z shrdlu68: cl-tls does validation, and there's no way to turn it off.
2017-04-24T17:13:29Z _death: shrdlu68: there is no one single bundle that's trusted by everyone
2017-04-24T17:14:20Z shrdlu68: _death: Different organizations have different demands in the vetting process, so yes of course.
2017-04-24T17:14:52Z shrdlu68: But if you pick, say, the bundle that the Mozilla foundation uses, that's a safe choice.
2017-04-24T17:15:36Z _death: shrdlu68: it's not about organizations, it's about the direct users of your program.. they are the ones to decide what they trust.. the fact that most don't even know about it doesn't mean you should "ship a bundle" in your security-related program
2017-04-24T17:16:13Z shrdlu68: Most Gnu/Linux systems have /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt
2017-04-24T17:16:36Z _death: shrdlu68: and some users may opt to remove or add certificates
2017-04-24T17:16:57Z _death: come now, you're writing a TLS implementation, you should already have that mindset
2017-04-24T17:16:58Z shrdlu68: _death: cl-tls is a completely low-level tls library, so it leaves the choice of ca-certificates to the user.
2017-04-24T17:17:24Z _death: shrdlu68: yes, that's what it should do
2017-04-24T17:17:37Z shrdlu68: And of course you can add and/or remove ca certificates as you wish.
2017-04-24T17:18:27Z shrdlu68: But people don't typically go around changing which ca certificates their curl or browser uses.
2017-04-24T17:18:51Z _death: maybe their sysadmins do
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2017-04-24T17:19:13Z _death: not everyone is using the browser at home or a public cafe
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2017-04-24T17:20:47Z shrdlu68: _death: Even so, the sysadmin will likely be installing a ca certificate and a client certificate rather than removing those that the browser ships with.
2017-04-24T17:20:48Z _death: (exclusively).. the point is that you should leave that to the environment
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2017-04-24T17:22:33Z _death: shrdlu68: that really depends on their security policy
2017-04-24T17:23:14Z _death: shrdlu68: and the browser usually doesn't ship with any afaik, but uses the operating system's list
2017-04-24T17:23:33Z shrdlu68: _death: Firefox does (NSS)
2017-04-24T17:23:40Z _death: shrdlu68: NSS is a TLS implementation
2017-04-24T17:24:23Z shrdlu68: Mozilla's, and it ships with it's own bundle.
2017-04-24T17:24:38Z _death: shrdlu68: looks like mozilla does has a default bundle.. which I guess is disabled by those organizations
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2017-04-24T17:25:26Z shrdlu68: Anyway, cl-tls does validation, all the user has to do is point out where the ca certificates are.
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2017-04-24T17:26:27Z shrdlu68: I'm curious about how other implementations handle wildcard host names, especially those that leave that to the user.
2017-04-24T17:27:01Z _death: even as a single home user, it may a be a good idea to review all those sources (there are way too many of them, that's another problem).. at least important servers nowadays adopt PKP
2017-04-24T17:27:49Z shrdlu68: An implementation that accepts *.com + a rogue sysadmin installing "company" CA certificates = trouble.
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2017-04-24T17:44:39Z ecraven: phoe: where is that guild at? google doesn't find it with "common lisp guild"
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2017-04-24T17:47:17Z jackdaniel: ecraven: I think it is only on github right now: https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/
2017-04-24T17:47:35Z ecraven: ah, that is simple to remember, thank you!
2017-04-24T17:48:05Z jackdaniel: I've seen a request on cl.net mailing list with some domain/space request
2017-04-24T17:48:19Z jackdaniel: at least I think it was on that ML
2017-04-24T17:48:53Z jackdaniel: or was it an issue on github? whatever
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2017-04-24T17:49:45Z phoe: minion: tell ecraven about guild
2017-04-24T17:49:45Z minion: ecraven: guild: Lisp Guild, a place for exchanging tasks to be done: https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects
2017-04-24T17:49:50Z phoe: and yes, there's a request
2017-04-24T17:50:11Z phoe: it might be available at guild.lisp.org but I need to negotiate the domain
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2017-04-24T17:53:33Z jackdaniel: I think lisp.org is owned by fe[nl]ix, not cl.net
2017-04-24T17:54:11Z jackdaniel: hum, ALU
2017-04-24T17:54:33Z phoe: AFAIK it's owned by admins of franz, but I might be wrong
2017-04-24T17:54:41Z phoe: or used to be administrated by someone from them
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2017-04-24T18:12:06Z emaczen: I'm trying: (ql:update-dist "parenscript") -- but it fails. What am I doing wrong?
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2017-04-24T18:13:44Z Bike: do you have a dist called that
2017-04-24T18:13:52Z Bike: or just the library? libraries are not dists
2017-04-24T18:14:27Z emaczen: Bike: just the library
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2017-04-24T18:14:44Z Bike: i don't think you can update single libraries
2017-04-24T18:14:59Z emaczen: Bike: How do you create the dist?
2017-04-24T18:15:23Z emaczen: For some reason, parenscript isn't compiling. I am just trying to remove it and re-install
2017-04-24T18:15:32Z Bike: you probably only have one dist, quicklisp
2017-04-24T18:15:37Z Bike: did (ql:update-all-dists) not work?
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2017-04-24T18:16:17Z emaczen: What is update-client then?
2017-04-24T18:16:30Z Bike: that updates the quicklisp client itself
2017-04-24T18:16:57Z Bike: the quicklisp dist is the collection of systems from quicklisp, so including parenscript and alexandria and everything else
2017-04-24T18:17:46Z emaczen: I see
2017-04-24T18:18:07Z Bike: so (ql:update-all-dists) will update all the actual software, including parenscript
2017-04-24T18:18:17Z Bike: of course if you've completely removed parenscript i think you have to quickload it again.
2017-04-24T18:19:12Z emaczen: I just did (ql:uninstall :parenscript) followed by (ql:quickload :parenscript) and I'm still getting a compile error
2017-04-24T18:19:19Z emaczen: Is anyone else having trouble with parenscript?
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2017-04-24T18:21:40Z aeth: Did you remove the cached FASL files?
2017-04-24T18:21:56Z emaczen: aeth: How do you do that?
2017-04-24T18:21:57Z nyef: Did you restart your lisp process?
2017-04-24T18:22:21Z aeth: I've gotten problems twice before with cl-sdl2 that could only be fixed by going into ~/.cache/common-lisp/ and removing the compiled files for it
2017-04-24T18:22:37Z emaczen: nyef: I thought I did, but I guess I didn't.
2017-04-24T18:22:40Z emaczen: It is loaded
2017-04-24T18:23:01Z aeth: ~/.cache/common-lisp/whichever-lisp-version/path/to/files/foo.fasl (or whatever your implementation calls the compiled files, if not FASL)
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2017-04-24T18:23:52Z aeth: If that's the problem, reinstalling it on Quicklisp won't fix it because it will be installed to the same path and so use the same cached files.
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2017-04-24T18:24:12Z White_Flame: I often just do rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp
2017-04-24T18:24:18Z nyef: Heh. I have 33 directories under ~/.cache/common-lisp/.
2017-04-24T18:24:35Z aeth: Every time your distro updates SBCL, a new version is created.
2017-04-24T18:24:51Z aeth: And the same with each other implementation
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2017-04-24T18:25:29Z cheryllium: #join #common-lisp.net
2017-04-24T18:25:31Z nyef: Tied for longest such directory name is "sbcl-1.3.14.141.dx-functionals-383079.2-9ddefed-dirty-linux-x64".
2017-04-24T18:25:32Z cheryllium: oops
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2017-04-24T18:26:49Z edgar-rft: there's indeed a freenode channel named #/join :-)
2017-04-24T18:27:02Z cheryllium: lol... you all saw nothing
2017-04-24T18:27:28Z aeth: That's nothing... once I accidentally messaged Nick (instead of NickServ) my password. That retired that password.
2017-04-24T18:28:06Z cheryllium: Oof. I was gonna say, one of my fears is accidentally voiding my password in that way.
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2017-04-24T18:29:10Z aeth: Give it enough years and every possible mistake will happen in things like sh or IRC commands that like to punish people for typos.
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2017-04-24T18:29:24Z aeth: Fortunately, on Freenode, you can send your password on connect, so you don't have to message anyone to identify.
2017-04-24T18:29:46Z cheryllium: my friend deleted bin once because of a single slash
2017-04-24T18:30:18Z aeth: once I overwrote an IRC log file because I didn't quote the > when searching for a name via grep
2017-04-24T18:30:27Z cheryllium: you know how common it is for things to have a folder named bin? he was trying to delete one of those, but instead managed to nuke THE bin
2017-04-24T18:30:42Z cheryllium: it was funny watching his face when it said "ls: command not found"
2017-04-24T18:31:12Z cheryllium: oh man, the worst is when you lose stuff you can't recover
2017-04-24T18:31:24Z aeth: That reminds me of that article where someone did "rm -rf /" on some server and someone else had to recover it.
2017-04-24T18:31:40Z cheryllium: one time we did a find+replace on a directory but we didn't exclude image files, so all the image files in that dir got corrupted
2017-04-24T18:32:44Z cheryllium: wasn't the digitalocean incident something like this? they deleted their production db...
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2017-04-24T18:35:01Z cheryllium: anyway, to stay on topic: is there any difference between :foobar and 'foobar in lisp? I understand the latter to be a quoted symbol, I'm unsure of the former though
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2017-04-24T18:35:42Z jackdaniel: cheryllium: :foobar is a symbol in keyword package
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2017-04-24T18:36:07Z jackdaniel: the thing with keyword package is that symbols in it are evaluating to themself
2017-04-24T18:36:13Z jackdaniel: so :foo is the same as ':foo
2017-04-24T18:36:17Z cheryllium: I notice they seem to be interchangeable when I'm loading things like with quickload
2017-04-24T18:36:24Z aeth: cheryllium: generally, it's a good idea to use keywords instead of symbols where e.g. Scheme might always use a symbol... because of how packages work
2017-04-24T18:36:29Z Bike: that's because for quickload they're just used as string designators.
2017-04-24T18:36:46Z aeth: e.g. you want your hash-table key to be :foo and not some-long-package/foo-bar::foo
2017-04-24T18:36:47Z Bike: they have the same symbol-name, and that's what's used as the string. the package is discarded.
2017-04-24T18:38:53Z cheryllium: I see..
2017-04-24T18:39:05Z aeth: cheryllium: off-topic, but your ls not found story reminds me of this: http://www.lug.wsu.edu/node/414
2017-04-24T18:40:24Z cheryllium: oh my god
2017-04-24T18:43:06Z aeth: (originally posted in 1986, copied from a place where it was last modified in 1996, uploaded to that site in 2006, and moved to a new system on that site sometime around 2011 when the comments begin)
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2017-04-24T18:46:35Z aeth: cheryllium: Anyway, either you mess with packages (symbols) or you use keywords. In the REPL (like when using Quicklisp) it makes no real difference to use "" or ' or : or even '#:
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2017-04-24T18:47:04Z cheryllium: Thanks :)
2017-04-24T18:47:48Z aeth: (the last one is non-interned, like what you get from gensym, and the first one, the string-literal quotes, will probably be in all-caps if you want to use those)
2017-04-24T18:47:50Z cheryllium: I wonder if it could be simplified further, CL packages seem to be a common source of confusion
2017-04-24T18:48:38Z cheryllium: Quicklisp is amazing though
2017-04-24T18:49:27Z jackdaniel: cheryllium: this is a nice (and short!) read which can possibly reduce some confusion
2017-04-24T18:49:30Z jackdaniel: http://weitz.de/packages.html
2017-04-24T18:49:39Z cheryllium: jackdaniel: thank you!
2017-04-24T18:50:04Z aeth: The confusion with packages is when you have something like * that is probably going to be imported from CL into all packages. So you can think that keywords and symbols are basically equivalent, up until the point where you use a symbol that isn't in CL.
2017-04-24T18:50:37Z aeth: e.g. if you were writing a simple language that takes in things like (* 2 3)
2017-04-24T18:50:38Z jackdaniel: aeth: even I am confused by what you say, not sure if it's helpful
2017-04-24T18:50:46Z jackdaniel: s/say/said/
2017-04-24T18:50:52Z Bike: oh shiiiiit
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2017-04-24T18:51:41Z aeth: jackdaniel: (* 2 3) will work as expected even though it should probably be (:* 2 3) and you won't really notice until you also have a (foo 2 3) and suddenly your CASE or whatever you're using to process the symbols will only work internally for foo, because it is looking for your-little-language::foo
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2017-04-24T18:52:25Z jackdaniel: if you "use" CL package, then symbols are imported from it, if you don't, then they are not
2017-04-24T18:52:52Z jackdaniel: so meaning of (* 2 3) depends on your current package (and its inherited symbols)
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2017-04-24T18:52:59Z jackdaniel: try (in-package keyword)
2017-04-24T18:53:01Z jackdaniel: (* 2 3)
2017-04-24T18:53:08Z jackdaniel: you'll have message, that :* is not defined
2017-04-24T18:53:23Z jackdaniel: function :*  that is
2017-04-24T18:53:35Z shrdlu68: Or define a new package, forget to use :cl, and try to use cl symbols.
2017-04-24T18:53:41Z jackdaniel: exactly
2017-04-24T18:53:52Z aeth: Right, what I mean is, the main point where you'd probably have confusion over symbols is when you're writing a fancy macro.
2017-04-24T18:53:57Z aeth: I probably should have just said that.
2017-04-24T18:54:09Z aeth: Macros are much easier if they expect keywords instead of symbols
2017-04-24T18:54:23Z nyef: On the other hand, if you use DEFPACKAGE and forget the :USE term entirely, you may-or-may-not end up with a package that uses :CL.
2017-04-24T18:54:32Z phoe: Yes, that's unspecified I think.
2017-04-24T18:54:49Z phoe: The only way to be sure is to put the :USE clause explicitly.
2017-04-24T18:55:10Z shrdlu68: This got me a few times when I was starting out with lisp. Very confusing and alarming errors.
2017-04-24T18:55:49Z shrdlu68: "#'+ cannot be found" or whatever.
2017-04-24T18:55:55Z jackdaniel: for me CL package system works fine. I had some confusion at start with forward references to not defined yet packages
2017-04-24T18:56:17Z jackdaniel: also I think that local package nicknames is a cool idea (very useful)
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2017-04-24T18:56:31Z nyef: It's not unspecified, it's implementation-defined
2017-04-24T18:56:34Z nyef: clhs make-package
2017-04-24T18:56:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_pkg.htm
2017-04-24T18:56:50Z aeth: What I like about the CL package system is that you can encapsulate things via macros by interning a symbol to (or hardcoding the path to) an internal package.
2017-04-24T18:57:33Z aeth: And when the macro expands it'll expend that part to my-internal-package::foo
2017-04-24T18:58:03Z aeth: hmm, sorry, probably describing the package wrong
2017-04-24T19:00:23Z aeth: package for internal things, not "internal package"
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2017-04-24T19:13:24Z emaczen: Where can I find newer documentation for parenscript? It seems to have changed a lot since I last used it.
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2017-04-24T19:13:43Z emaczen: The common-lisp.net links to documentation from 2012...
2017-04-24T19:15:30Z edgar-rft: The answer depends on if "I last used it" was before or after 2012...
2017-04-24T19:15:37Z phoe: haha, it's weird
2017-04-24T19:15:44Z phoe: the reference.html file was last modified 3 months ago
2017-04-24T19:15:50Z phoe: https://github.com/vsedach/Parenscript/blob/master/docs/reference.html
2017-04-24T19:15:52Z phoe: PuercoPop: ^
2017-04-24T19:15:57Z phoe: maybe you will be able to tell us more about this
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2017-04-24T19:19:30Z emaczen: Are there are any other lispy JS wrappers?
2017-04-24T19:19:40Z emaczen: or lisp to js compilers?
2017-04-24T19:21:52Z phoe: you could try JSCL I think
2017-04-24T19:22:01Z phoe: since it technically can run CL code on JS
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2017-04-24T19:22:24Z emaczen: Has anyone really tried it?
2017-04-24T19:23:11Z jackdaniel: emaczen: JSCL is implementation of Common Lisp written in JS (incomplete)
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2017-04-24T19:23:19Z phoe: unrelated - a recent screenshot of LambdaDelta 0.98.1 running actual LMI stuff http://i.imgur.com/D0sJJKR.jpg
2017-04-24T19:23:28Z emaczen: jackdaniel: I see, but what is the experience of users?
2017-04-24T19:23:48Z jackdaniel: I've tried it  - very cool project
2017-04-24T19:24:07Z jackdaniel: not sure if it's usable for web dev, but still cool one
2017-04-24T19:24:22Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Ahhh, that is what I wanted to know.
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2017-04-24T19:24:55Z jackdaniel: here you may try it: https://jscl-project.github.io/
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2017-04-24T19:49:45Z nosefouratyou: when I run a function that has something undefined, why don't I get an error? in this example https://gist.github.com/nosefouratyou/7653375e28e74d106f68663099124e38 I didn't define message-parse but I don't get an error
2017-04-24T19:50:17Z phoe: nosefouratyou: the respective code path does not get executed
2017-04-24T19:50:26Z phoe: ...oh wait
2017-04-24T19:50:33Z Bike: do you get a different error?
2017-04-24T19:50:41Z phoe: this is a handler-case
2017-04-24T19:50:49Z phoe: you get an error, but it gets caught by the handler-case
2017-04-24T19:51:13Z phoe: so the undefined-function error gets caught by the handler-case and you do not get cast into the debugger
2017-04-24T19:51:48Z phoe: try defining a handler for something *less* general than error
2017-04-24T19:52:02Z nosefouratyou: phoe: ah, okay that makes a lot of sense. thank you!
2017-04-24T19:52:07Z nosefouratyou: I knew it was something obvious that missed
2017-04-24T19:52:30Z phoe: nosefouratyou: try running the same code but outside the handler-case
2017-04-24T19:52:35Z phoe: you should get the error you are looking for.
2017-04-24T19:53:19Z nosefouratyou: for some reason I thought that an undefined error wouldn't be caught by the exception handling mechanism. guess I underestimated how complete/awesome it is.
2017-04-24T19:53:40Z Bike: er, did your handler not print something to the effect of "undefined function"?
2017-04-24T19:55:06Z phoe: nosefouratyou: well, an error is an error in Lisp, which is a condition of type undefined-function which is a subtype of error
2017-04-24T19:55:22Z phoe: so if you catch all errors then d'oh
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2017-04-24T20:07:17Z Suzuran: phoe: How fast is LambdaDelta for you, and what are you running it on?
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2017-04-24T20:09:41Z phoe: Suzuran: I'm not running it
2017-04-24T20:10:11Z Suzuran: Oh, sorry then
2017-04-24T20:10:16Z phoe: Suzuran: g000001 from /r/lisp_ja is
2017-04-24T20:10:23Z Suzuran: I assumed the screenshot was yours
2017-04-24T20:10:48Z phoe: nope, not mine
2017-04-24T20:11:06Z phoe: but seemingly "So far we have been able to run full-speed on a 2.3 GHz i7 and a 2.5 GHz i5, but the i5 was pushing it. The i7 gets a bit warm."
2017-04-24T20:11:14Z Suzuran: Yeah, it does.
2017-04-24T20:11:25Z Suzuran: You should have seen it a month ago, it was a lot slower.
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2017-04-24T20:39:16Z phoe: time to see how well SBCL runs under wine
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2017-04-24T20:44:13Z phoe: good, it executes
2017-04-24T20:44:32Z phoe: I really wonder if I can use win64 SBCL to dump windows binaries under Wine
2017-04-24T20:44:40Z phoe: this is going to simplify my development so God damn much xD
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2017-04-24T20:46:06Z phoe: oh good, save-lisp-and-die works
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2017-04-24T20:49:12Z phoe: ...I am really going to check how well the Windows version of SBCL behaves on Linux/Wine.
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2017-04-24T20:51:51Z drmeister: Is this a reasonable way to create a list by appending a bunch of lists?
2017-04-24T20:51:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/YQiVSP9E/
2017-04-24T20:52:27Z drmeister: (clos:subclasses* xxx) returns a list of all classes that inherit from class (including class)
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2017-04-24T20:52:49Z phoe: drmeister: in line 4, you can NCONC instead of APPEND.
2017-04-24T20:53:03Z phoe: because in line 5 you are creating new lists by COLLECT.
2017-04-24T20:53:18Z drmeister: Thank you
2017-04-24T20:53:29Z phoe: So you don't need to cons up new lists - you can destructively append the ones you cons in the depths.
2017-04-24T20:53:38Z phoe: So you only cons once, not twice.
2017-04-24T20:53:40Z drmeister: So...
2017-04-24T20:53:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2BdxPAYz/
2017-04-24T20:54:15Z phoe: Yes.
2017-04-24T20:54:26Z phoe: I think this is idiomatic and correct.
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2017-04-24T20:54:47Z mhd: Hi, using SBCL. Trying to use defsystem, but forgot how to get defsystem (ASDF). How do I get defsystem in fresh SBCL? I did ./run-sbcl.sh and then (require :asdf). No workee. I know I could probably install quicklisp, but is there some way without using quicklisp?
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2017-04-24T20:56:02Z phoe: mhd: you should have ASDF bundled with SBCL.
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2017-04-24T20:56:05Z phoe: What is your SBCL version?
2017-04-24T20:56:36Z mhd: sbcl-1.2.11-x86-64-darwin
2017-04-24T20:57:14Z phoe: (ah, the ancient OS X versions~) Nonetheless, you should have ASDF bundled with SBCL.
2017-04-24T20:57:43Z phoe: If, in some weird case, you don't have it, https://github.com/fare/asdf has an installation guide.
2017-04-24T20:58:02Z mhd: (apropos "defsys") => nothin'
2017-04-24T20:58:08Z phoe: Actually, https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#downloads
2017-04-24T20:58:14Z phoe: Download the asdf.lisp and LOAD it.
2017-04-24T20:58:18Z phoe: See if this helps.
2017-04-24T20:58:23Z phoe has to run for now
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2017-04-24T21:04:30Z mhd: This worked: download https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/archives/asdf.lisp, and then LOAD it.
2017-04-24T21:04:45Z mhd: thank you
2017-04-24T21:06:21Z Xach: mhd: if you cannot (require :asdf), something is incomplete or broken with the installation.
2017-04-24T21:06:28Z Xach: mhd: it is worth fixing.
2017-04-24T21:06:42Z Xach: mhd: what happens when you try it?
2017-04-24T21:08:39Z mhd: I think it's just: be on Mac, download latest SBCL, run it from shell using ./run-sbcl, do (require :asdf) => error: debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR:
2017-04-24T21:08:39Z mhd:   Failed to find the TRUENAME of ./obj/sbcl-home/: No such file or directory
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2017-04-24T21:14:43Z mhd: Xach?
2017-04-24T21:15:25Z Xach: mhd: hmm
2017-04-24T21:15:35Z mhd: true
2017-04-24T21:16:06Z _death: try settings SBCL_HOME?
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2017-04-24T21:19:09Z mazoe: mhd: FYI I have sbcl v1.3.16 installed and working fine on a Mac. Installed with Homebrew
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2017-04-24T21:28:37Z mhd: what should SBCL_HOME be relative to ./run-sbcl.sh ?
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2017-04-24T21:36:24Z mhd: _death: nothing I tried worked (improved things): tried ./ and tried absolute pathname to same and no workee
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2017-04-24T21:39:12Z francogrex: hi what was the command in slime where the evaluation results gets printed inside (below) the .lisp file expression?
2017-04-24T21:41:00Z pjb: C-u C-x C-e
2017-04-24T21:42:26Z francogrex: sweet.
2017-04-24T21:42:42Z francogrex: it's not well documented this command in the manuals
2017-04-24T21:43:05Z prxq: mhd: what are you trying to do?
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2017-04-24T21:47:59Z mhd: prxq: I'm trying to respond to _death's request to set SBCL_HOME appropriately and then try ./run-sbcl and see if (require :asdf) then works.
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2017-04-24T21:50:20Z prxq: mhd: where is run-sbcl.sh from?
2017-04-24T21:50:42Z prxq: normally I just run 'sbcl' if I want to run sbcl
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2017-04-24T21:56:21Z mhd: prxq: it's going from http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html => download latest for Mac => unarchive => cd sbcl-1.2.11-x86-64-darwin => INSTALL (text file to read for instructions) => follow these instr's: 1. BINARY DISTRIBUTION
2017-04-24T21:56:21Z mhd: 1.1. Quick start:
2017-04-24T21:56:22Z mhd:   To run SBCL without installing it, from the top of binary distribution
2017-04-24T21:56:22Z mhd:   directory:
2017-04-24T21:56:22Z mhd:     $ sh run-sbcl.sh
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2017-04-24T22:24:14Z mhd: prxq: xach: OK, solved: I had an old ~/.sbclrc init file around, which in my case changed the working directory using sb-posix:chdir. Running without init file works, among other possible things I could do once I realized this. I think it's pretty much not-a-bug.
2017-04-24T22:25:12Z mhd: thanks
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2017-04-24T23:07:20Z thodg: is anyone here using portable-threads ?
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2017-04-24T23:43:56Z pillton: thodg: You are better off detailing your problem involving threads.
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2017-04-24T23:56:02Z kruhft: Has anybody here tried Lisp Flavoured Erlang?
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2017-04-25T00:17:49Z pillton: kruhft: There are people in this thread that have used it: https://mailman.common-lisp.net/pipermail/pro/2015-August/001227.html.
2017-04-25T00:18:45Z kruhft: I'm actaully trying LFE out; I was hoping someone could help with something.
2017-04-25T00:19:26Z pillton: I doubt you'll find anyone here since this channel is dedicated to common lisp.
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2017-04-25T02:45:11Z edgar-rft uses vanilla flavoured Lisp
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2017-04-25T02:47:06Z White_Flame: I changed the syntax highlighting to make my parens yellow.  banana flavored lisp
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2017-04-25T03:05:41Z nyef: Trying to confirm that I'm not doing anything more stupid than usual, the magic for opening a Linux device file with OPEN is :DIRECTION :IO :IF-EXISTS :OVERWRITE, yes?
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2017-04-25T03:15:47Z nyef: Hrmph. Typical. The device file in question enforces stricter permissions than the filesystem declares.
2017-04-25T03:18:04Z nyef: Which, of course, means that I need to run the program which accesses this device as root. Great going, Linux!
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2017-04-25T03:42:07Z PuercoPop: phoe: IIRC the c-l.net version can only be updated by Vladimir Sedachv, while for the github repo jasom also commit rights. So jasom could accept the PR but not update c-l.net
2017-04-25T03:45:37Z nyef: Hrm. Okay, looks like there's a capability thing involved. Lovely.
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2017-04-25T04:35:48Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-25T04:36:01Z Guest93199: morning
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2017-04-25T04:41:29Z presiden: \[T]/
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2017-04-25T05:13:59Z afidegnum: hello, what is the best tool for vector animation in lisp?
2017-04-25T05:14:40Z beach: What is meant by "vector animation"?
2017-04-25T05:16:07Z afidegnum: ok, let's see animation in general
2017-04-25T05:16:16Z afidegnum: what are the available tools?
2017-04-25T05:18:46Z afidegnum: beach: any idea?
2017-04-25T05:20:20Z beach: No.
2017-04-25T05:21:05Z White_Flame: well, "vector animation" can mean a million different things, from moving line graphs to flash-style cartoons
2017-04-25T05:21:16Z White_Flame: to 3d graphics
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2017-04-25T05:21:46Z White_Flame: and for most creative visual stuff, the content creation tool drives most of the file formats & processing anywya
2017-04-25T05:21:53Z beach: I was imagining displaying a vector of objects as it changes, like when you want to illustrate a sorting algorithm.
2017-04-25T05:22:05Z afidegnum: White_Flame: yes, mostly 2d,
2017-04-25T05:22:27Z afidegnum: 2d animations
2017-04-25T05:22:35Z edgar-rft: AFAIK a vector is always 1d
2017-04-25T05:22:37Z afidegnum: like flash or svg animations
2017-04-25T05:22:59Z afidegnum: edgar-rft: there is height and width so, 2d :)
2017-04-25T05:23:21Z White_Flame: a "vector" is a 1-dimensional array in Common Lisp terminology
2017-04-25T05:23:24Z edgar-rft: a 2d-vector is an array
2017-04-25T05:23:29Z beach: edgar-rft: I think afidegnum is using "vector" in a different way.
2017-04-25T05:23:38Z presiden: not matrix?
2017-04-25T05:23:49Z White_Flame: but in any case, if you're drawing in svg, then I guess you need to link to a SVG rendering library
2017-04-25T05:24:06Z White_Flame: I don't think much native CL code has been written for that yet, but there's a lot of ffi libraries out there
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2017-04-25T05:24:44Z edgar-rft: presiden: no, matrix is a movie
2017-04-25T05:24:49Z afidegnum: edgar-rft: ah, sorry not lisp vector :)
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2017-04-25T06:42:13Z beach: There is a page in the Common Lisp HyperSpec that explains the rules for how to interpret the expressions in a body, i.e., what expressions are considered to be declarations, documentation strings, and body forms.  Does anyone remember where that page is to be found?
2017-04-25T06:44:14Z beach: Never mind.  Found it.
2017-04-25T06:44:29Z beach: clhs 3.4.11
2017-04-25T06:44:30Z specbot: Syntactic Interaction of Documentation Strings and Declarations: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dk.htm
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2017-04-25T08:23:13Z phoe: A daily reminder that the Lisp Guild exists and currently has four free tasks for volunteers (maybe you!) to pick up. If you want some working experience with real-life Lisp on well-defined tasks to be done, then https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1 <- click here and grab one. If you want to post new tasks so you get them done and others get experience - you're free to join up as well.
2017-04-25T08:25:34Z ogamita: Now, we just have to define tasks well. :-)
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2017-04-25T08:26:50Z phoe: ogamita: well enough. What to do, how to do it.
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2017-04-25T08:33:16Z beach: phoe: Actually, the Guild is a good TODO list, even if the same person who defined the task ultimately also ends up doing it.
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2017-04-25T08:44:18Z phoe: beach: good, that's what it's meant to be. Just, multiplayer.
2017-04-25T08:45:43Z phoe: You can create similar lists on other GitHub repositories as well if you want/need to.
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2017-04-25T11:18:39Z shrdlu68: Is there a loop keyword that immediately makes loop jump back to the beginning?
2017-04-25T11:19:12Z pillton: Beginning of what?
2017-04-25T11:19:37Z beach: shrdlu68: Like `continue' in C?  No.
2017-04-25T11:19:48Z shrdlu68: beginning of the loop. i.e not excute the rest of loop and go back to the top.
2017-04-25T11:19:53Z beach: shrdlu68: Wrap the rest of the body in an IF.
2017-04-25T11:19:54Z shrdlu68: beach: I see.
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2017-04-25T11:27:23Z phoe: shrdlu68: ITERATE does, AFAIK.
2017-04-25T11:27:26Z phoe: You might want to poke it.
2017-04-25T11:29:20Z shrdlu68: phoe: I'll check it out
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2017-04-25T11:31:17Z phoe: also
2017-04-25T11:31:31Z phoe: shrdlu68: if you iterate using DO, you can use GO
2017-04-25T11:31:36Z phoe: because it's an implicit TAGBODY
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2017-04-25T11:31:53Z phoe: so if your iteration is simple enough, (DO (...) (...) BEGIN ... (GO BEGIN) ...)
2017-04-25T11:32:00Z phoe: and if it's complicated, ITERATE.
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2017-04-25T11:35:26Z varjag: avoid go/tagbody outside of generated code
2017-04-25T11:35:32Z varjag: unless you are rolepalying 1960s
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2017-04-25T11:36:18Z shka is hiding in the corner
2017-04-25T11:36:23Z phoe: yes, people are going to burn you on the stake for this
2017-04-25T11:36:33Z phoe: so unless you're ready for that, ITERATE I guess
2017-04-25T11:36:49Z phoe (go phoe-loop-beginning)
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2017-04-25T11:37:12Z shrdlu68: ...or you're writing state machines.
2017-04-25T11:37:59Z shka: ok, so i'm not completly bad programmer :D
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2017-04-25T11:41:53Z varjag: i never use goto with state machines, but i guess that can be argued as personal preferences
2017-04-25T11:43:36Z _death: arguing against goto is 1970s
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2017-04-25T11:44:20Z ogamita: And even, it was the editor's title and the argument wasn't 100% anti-goto.
2017-04-25T11:44:44Z shrdlu68: varjag: I'd like to see you implement section 2.2.1.1 of https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2631.txt without using gotos or losing your mind.
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2017-04-25T11:45:19Z ogamita: If you use Hoare's assertions, then you can use goto easily: just compute the right assertition at the jump points.
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2017-04-25T11:47:47Z varjag: shrdlu68: doesn't look like particularly grand state machine
2017-04-25T11:48:32Z varjag: i see three gotos, two of which form non-intersecting loops
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2017-04-25T11:49:32Z varjag: actually the third looks like a loop too
2017-04-25T11:50:38Z shrdlu68: I used goto and was done with it. For me, there was absolutely no reason against using goto in this case.
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2017-04-25T11:52:29Z _death: apparently McCarthy also wrote a "considered harmful" article.. which is an amusing read
2017-04-25T11:53:04Z varjag: communists considered harmful?
2017-04-25T11:53:11Z varjag: ..oh *that* mccarthy
2017-04-25T11:53:13Z shrdlu68: haha.
2017-04-25T11:54:28Z _death: there is no other 'round here
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2017-04-25T12:41:57Z beach: I added one more small task to the Lisp Guild.
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2017-04-25T12:47:48Z Xach: attila_lendvai: did dwim.hu have trouble earlier? i had trouble fetching from it about 4 hours ago, but things are better now
2017-04-25T12:47:53Z Xach: (maybe the problem was local here)
2017-04-25T12:48:37Z attila_lendvai: Xach: the lisp web service was not running for some reason. I just restarted it. thanks for the heads up!
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2017-04-25T12:48:57Z Xach: phew
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2017-04-25T12:50:34Z attila_lendvai: it may have been my mistake, I was messing with it recently
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2017-04-25T14:50:13Z Grue``: actually, to simulate continue you must go to the *end* of the loop body
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2017-04-25T15:51:34Z jasom: PuercoPop: I can update both if the question is about parenscript
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2017-04-25T15:53:42Z francogrex: hi in slime, is it possible to find the source file of a function (within the context of a asdf library)? or do we lose the src when asdf loads compiled files?
2017-04-25T15:55:33Z phoe: francogrex: M-.
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2017-04-25T15:58:28Z francogrex: ok
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2017-04-25T15:58:38Z jjkola: hi
2017-04-25T15:58:56Z beach: Hello jjkola.
2017-04-25T15:59:17Z beach: francogrex: I would think it depends on whether your implementation saved the source position in the fasl file.
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2017-04-25T16:00:15Z francogrex: alright. I will try load-op versus load-source-op
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2017-04-25T16:01:28Z francogrex: they both seem to work fine with M-.
2017-04-25T16:01:33Z francogrex: it locates the file
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2017-04-25T16:01:57Z jjkola: anybody here can help with radiance?
2017-04-25T16:02:33Z beach: jjkola: You might have to visit #clasp, where Shinmera hangs out.
2017-04-25T16:02:47Z jjkola: beach: ok, thanks
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2017-04-25T16:07:41Z phoe: jjkola: #shirakumo
2017-04-25T16:08:04Z phoe: that's the channel for radiance and family
2017-04-25T16:08:29Z beach: Oh, didn't know.  Sorry.
2017-04-25T16:10:08Z jasom: PuercoPop: what I *can't* update is the github settings, so I can't put the manual in github pages (since that would require admin rights to the github repository)
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2017-04-25T16:19:21Z phoe: beach: no worries
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2017-04-25T16:33:56Z emaczen: where are the caches for quicklisp located?
2017-04-25T16:34:21Z jackdaniel: emaczen: quicklisp caches? asdf has caches in ~/.cache/common-lisp by default
2017-04-25T16:34:32Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if quicklisp has any, but you may look for fas\* files
2017-04-25T16:34:35Z jasom: emaczen: asdf decides that, which defaults to ~/.cache/common-lisp on *nix
2017-04-25T16:35:40Z jasom: emaczen: if you mean "cached downloaded source code" then that's in QUICKLISP-INSTALL-DIR/dists/quicklisp/softare (i.e. ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software by default)
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2017-04-25T16:37:19Z emaczen: jasom: Thanks, I keep having issues with compiling a parenscript file in the source for some reason...
2017-04-25T16:38:46Z jasom: emaczen: what are you using to compile the parenscript file?
2017-04-25T16:39:15Z jasom didn't think there was an ASDF rule for parenscritp sources
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2017-04-25T16:56:03Z gigamonkey: Getting a weird warning from SBCL. Details here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345140
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2017-04-25T17:05:21Z gigamonkey: It's like it's looking at the code before macro expansion and complaining about it even though the macro is going to totally transform it.
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2017-04-25T17:11:03Z Bike: that's pretty strange. and you transform it manually instead of using a macrolet or something?
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2017-04-25T17:12:25Z gigamonkey: Yeah. Basically. I just annotated the paste with the DEFTERM macro.
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2017-04-25T17:15:42Z Bike: hm... can't reproduce with a vastly simplified version. are you sure the function with two arguments is COUNTED?
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2017-04-25T17:16:17Z gigamonkey: Well, that's what SLIME highlights.
2017-04-25T17:16:21Z gigamonkey: But maybe it's confused.
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2017-04-25T17:19:40Z gigamonkey: And COUNTED is the only function called in the exanded code unless I'm missing something.
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2017-04-25T17:41:32Z phoe: So I'm running SBCL under Wine now with Quicklisp loaded, I'm downloading and compiling QTools.
2017-04-25T17:41:46Z phoe: I think this is another level of meta.
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2017-04-25T17:58:35Z Grue`` when you like kitten of death so much you run SBCL under Wine
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2017-04-25T17:59:49Z jasom: I run sbcl under wine all the time to generate windows executables
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2017-04-25T18:06:07Z phoe: ^
2017-04-25T18:06:13Z phoe: I want do to exactly this
2017-04-25T18:09:49Z jackdaniel: you want a kitten of death or generate windows executables?
2017-04-25T18:13:32Z phoe: I want to generate windows executables
2017-04-25T18:13:36Z phoe: and everything I want seems to work.
2017-04-25T18:13:38Z phoe: goooood.
2017-04-25T18:18:13Z rumbler31: you can do this????
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2017-04-25T18:19:12Z shrdlu68: Wow.
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2017-04-25T18:25:46Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate ran using wine as well
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2017-04-25T18:47:16Z jjkola: good night
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2017-04-25T18:52:23Z phoe: I have a very weird bug
2017-04-25T18:53:28Z phoe: UIOP:LAUNCH-PROGRAM on SBCL under Wine creates a process that would then normally spawn a window
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2017-04-25T18:53:34Z phoe: and yes, it does spawn a window
2017-04-25T18:53:42Z phoe: except my window manager/X server is completely unaware of it
2017-04-25T18:53:57Z phoe: and then, all other windows that are later spawned by that process are visible!
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2017-04-25T19:20:09Z borei: good morning lispers !
2017-04-25T19:21:00Z borei: i have quick question in regards generic functions and methods built on top of it
2017-04-25T19:21:09Z borei: here is problem
2017-04-25T19:21:29Z borei: i have generic function to move atom to new location
2017-04-25T19:21:47Z borei: (defgeneric move-to (atom r) ....
2017-04-25T19:22:35Z borei: r can be vector object with 3 components, but it can be just x, y, z so method will be like
2017-04-25T19:22:52Z borei: (defmethod move-to (atom r) ...
2017-04-25T19:22:53Z borei: or
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2017-04-25T19:23:09Z borei: (defmethod move-to (atom x y z) ...
2017-04-25T19:23:28Z borei: of cause lisp is not happy, because signature is changed
2017-04-25T19:24:26Z borei: i can introduce several generic functions to cover possible use-cases, but that solution is not lisp way
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2017-04-25T19:25:08Z borei: i can introuduce (defgeneric move-to (atom &rest r) ... - but that solution is too open for potential problem
2017-04-25T19:25:35Z attila_lendvai: maybe generic methods are not the tool you need here
2017-04-25T19:25:46Z borei: need some hint in terms of proper language usage
2017-04-25T19:25:58Z gigamonkey: borei: what are you planning to specialize the methods on?
2017-04-25T19:26:03Z gigamonkey: The atom argument?
2017-04-25T19:26:31Z gigamonkey: Or are you hoping to distinguish between a vector r and your three loose arguments?
2017-04-25T19:26:33Z borei: attila_lendvai: that is good point and it leads to another question - when should i use generic functions or just functions
2017-04-25T19:26:56Z gigamonkey: Use GFs when you want convenient dispatching on the type(s) of one or more arguments.
2017-04-25T19:26:57Z borei: distinguish between a vector r and your three loose arguments
2017-04-25T19:27:04Z gigamonkey: Yeah, that's not gonna work.
2017-04-25T19:28:12Z borei: im comming up to that conclusion, but want to make sure if i missunderstood something, or don't see full functionality
2017-04-25T19:28:13Z attila_lendvai: borei: if it'll be an essential part of your code, i.e. used a lot, then you can even introduce a small macro based DSL
2017-04-25T19:28:41Z borei: hmm, im not there yet :-)
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2017-04-25T19:28:43Z gigamonkey: SBCL hackers: that weird warning I mentioned earlier this morning seems to be contaminating things worse than I thought. If I build the system I get the warning and then if I run the code it complains about the wrong number of arguments being passed.
2017-04-25T19:29:04Z gigamonkey:  But if I then go and recompile the file containing the DEFTERM form, the warning goes away and the code runs fine.
2017-04-25T19:29:19Z gigamonkey: Any pointers on how to debug what the heck is going on?
2017-04-25T19:31:40Z gigamonkey: borei: really what you're doing is "punning" on the name. Since you're going to pass either one or three (extra) arguments you might as well just write two functions with two different names.
2017-04-25T19:33:01Z gigamonkey: Or you could do something gross like (defun move-to (atom a &option b c) (if (and b c) (move-to atom (vector a b c)) (actually-move atom a)))
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2017-04-25T19:33:43Z phoe: gigamonkey: #sbcl might be more specific here
2017-04-25T19:35:15Z borei: (defun move-to (atom a &option b c) - nah, that is bad approach
2017-04-25T19:36:10Z gigamonkey: Yeah. Like I said, gross.
2017-04-25T19:36:21Z gigamonkey: But that's what you're asking to do: dispatch on the number of arguments you get.
2017-04-25T19:40:06Z borei: is it good idea to wrap arguments into &rest list and control it within method, don't want to introduce one more "move-to" function because of the arguments, because it does absolutely the same thing, but a bit differently.
2017-04-25T19:44:26Z phoe: jackdaniel: where are ECL releases for Windows?
2017-04-25T19:44:55Z jackdaniel: I don't ship binary releases, only source code
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2017-04-25T19:47:45Z phoe: I need a Windows ECL 16.1.3 and I do not have a Windows box with the infrastructure to compile it on - what do you suggest?
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2017-04-25T19:48:17Z shrdlu68: phoe: VM?
2017-04-25T19:48:26Z phoe: shrdlu68: I can install it, but it'll take hours
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2017-04-25T19:48:39Z phoe: installing Windows + compilers + environment
2017-04-25T19:48:55Z jackdaniel: you may cross compiler with mingw. but I'd use VM and msvc
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2017-04-25T19:52:32Z jackdaniel: s/compiler/compile/
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2017-04-25T20:20:23Z gigamonkey: So, my problem was not SBCL but the nice hackers in #sbcl straightened me out.
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2017-04-25T20:29:29Z phoe: What was it?
2017-04-25T20:32:01Z jurov: phoe: try windows subsystem for unix
2017-04-25T20:32:42Z jurov: but i had some disappointments trying to compile stuff there, maybe it's improved since
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2017-04-25T20:33:38Z jurov: errr...it's called "windows subsystem for linux" just run "bash" from cmd in win10
2017-04-25T20:34:12Z phoe: jurov: I do not have win10
2017-04-25T20:34:22Z phoe: I'm on debian sid
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2017-04-25T20:44:11Z varjag: you can run wsl inside windows inside virtualbox inside debian sid
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2017-04-25T23:11:01Z pillton: borei: The CLIM specification solves this problem by providing move-to and move-to*.
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2017-04-26T03:26:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-26T03:26:56Z oleo: morning beach :)
2017-04-26T03:28:21Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2017-04-26T03:38:44Z presiden: o/
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2017-04-26T05:21:02Z jackdaniel: McCLIM progress report: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/posts/Progress-report-7.html :-)
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2017-04-26T05:29:51Z beach: jackdaniel: Great!
2017-04-26T05:30:22Z pillton: jackdaniel: Is there a McCLIM channel?
2017-04-26T05:30:33Z beach: pillton: We use #clim.
2017-04-26T05:30:51Z pillton: Thanks.
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2017-04-26T06:32:39Z beach: I had some insight about Earley-style parsing, and about parsing in general.  This insight is relevant to Cleavir, because I want to use Earley-style parsing for lambda lists, so as to make it possible for client code to customize what specific lambda-list keywords are allowed, and how to treat them.
2017-04-26T06:32:41Z beach: The insight is that the tokenizer is context free, so it must be possible to determine the nature of a token without knowing how it will be used.  For lambda lists, a `token' can in fact be a pattern, requiring a recursive parsing task to be started.  But whether a list is a pattern or (say) an optional parameter definitely depends on the context.
2017-04-26T06:33:28Z pillton: I wondered that when you brought it up the other day.
2017-04-26T06:33:46Z beach: Good, that means I am not alone. :)
2017-04-26T06:35:11Z beach: In terms of Earley parsing, the consequences are that the Earley `scanner' is just a special case of the `completer' in that it uses some equality predicate to check the next token.  What I should do is generalize the completer to use a custom test and eliminate the special case represented by the scanner.
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2017-04-26T06:36:29Z beach: If I have a generic function to do that, then, based on the context, I can trigger a subordinate parsing task when a pattern is required and I see a list as the next `token'.
2017-04-26T06:37:32Z beach: But when an optional parameter is required and I see a list, then the list is considered to be an optional parameter with a default value.
2017-04-26T06:38:29Z beach: Definitely smells like a potential paper in the end.
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2017-04-26T06:40:54Z pjb: beach: *IF* the tokenizer is context free, not *that*.
2017-04-26T06:42:18Z pjb: beach: what about *read-base*; what about reader macros implementing context-dependent tokenizers?  Almost all programming languages have context-dependent lexers (hence the states in lex/flex).
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2017-04-26T06:43:29Z beach: pjb: I am not going to use this technique to parse general Common Lisp code.
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2017-04-26T06:43:52Z beach: pjb: In fact, I have a tokenizer, namely READ.
2017-04-26T06:44:01Z pjb: :-)
2017-04-26T06:44:18Z beach: But for lambda lists, the concept of a token gets generalized a bit, since lambda lists are nested.
2017-04-26T06:44:36Z beach: Therefore, an element of a lambda list can very well be another lambda list.
2017-04-26T06:45:43Z beach: But yeah, you are right, most tokenizers need some kind of kludge to determine context, but it is usually not the same mechanism as is used by the parser.  Though I am aware that there are parsing techniques that don't require a tokenizer.
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2017-04-26T06:49:27Z shrdlu68: Good morning, folk.
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2017-04-26T06:49:48Z beach: Hello shrdlu68.
2017-04-26T06:50:02Z flip214: shrdlu68: good morning..... but shouldn't that be "folks"?
2017-04-26T06:50:34Z shrdlu68: flip214: Maybe. Second-hand english :)
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2017-04-26T06:51:22Z flip214: oh, okay. Never mind. Just asking to fix _my_ interpretation of "English" ;)
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2017-04-26T07:22:38Z shrdlu68: The design of x509 is frustrating. It requires parsing a data structure multiple times. Parse it once, extract x and y, then go back again and extract a and b.
2017-04-26T07:24:52Z flip214: shrdlu68: uh... why not simply get all attributes out (recursively?) first time around?
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2017-04-26T07:28:56Z shrdlu68: flip214: That's what I'm doing, except "all the attributes" keeps changing as you read the specs.
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2017-04-26T07:29:58Z flip214: well, at least you know what attributes you _need_ to get out, right?
2017-04-26T07:31:09Z shrdlu68: I'm discovering now that for OSCP checking, I need the hash of the DER-encoded value of the public-key-info in a certificate, and the distinguished name.
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2017-04-26T07:32:16Z shrdlu68: Which means either re-encode what I have decoded, which is insane, or go back and save the raw data before decoding _and_ then decode it and save the attributes in it too.
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2017-04-26T07:34:59Z shrdlu68: The ASN.1 parse includes a :mode option, either :serialized or :deserialized. If you use :deserialized (the default), it recursively deserializes an ASN sequence for you and returnt the elements: strings, integers, octet strings, object identifiers, etc.
2017-04-26T07:36:25Z shrdlu68: Which saves a lot of work because if you use :serialized then you have to deserialized each element manaully, which is soul-corroding because a sequence may contain a very large number of nested elements.
2017-04-26T07:36:54Z flip214: shrdlu68: I'd recommend to just store displaced arrays into the original data along with the parsed-out data somewhere.
2017-04-26T07:37:49Z shrdlu68: flip214: That's a good idea.
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2017-04-26T10:56:15Z xificurC: starting a script with quicklisp enabled takes me 0.3 seconds (sbcl). If I skipped quicklisp and went straight with asdf to load the libraries would I get a speedup? I tried putting `(require "asdf") (asdf:load-system "cl-ppcre")` to test the speed but asdf cannot find cl-ppcre
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2017-04-26T10:57:07Z phoe: xificurC: you could explicitly tell ASDF to look in the proper folder, ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-ppcre......
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2017-04-26T11:00:31Z xificurC: phoe: ok, that seems to not crash, however I'm not sure if I'm running the script properly
2017-04-26T11:00:41Z xificurC: sbcl --noinform --non-interactive --no-userinit --no-sysinit --script regex.lisp
2017-04-26T11:00:48Z xificurC: shows no output even though there's prints in the file
2017-04-26T11:01:49Z guaqua: xificurC: what is the reason for optimizing startup speed? if you want to get straight to running your program quickly, i'd suggest you look at saving a core and starting the program with that
2017-04-26T11:02:07Z xificurC: I'm wondering how much of an uncharted territory did I just walk into
2017-04-26T11:02:37Z xificurC: guaqua: that's a viable solution for 1 script. Imagine all your bash and python scripts were like that
2017-04-26T11:03:06Z guaqua: that's true. if your scripts seem to share the same set of libraries, they could maybe use the same core
2017-04-26T11:03:07Z _death: I save a core with often used (but not often updated) systems loaded..
2017-04-26T11:03:15Z flip214: me too.
2017-04-26T11:03:23Z xificurC: I'm optimizing for startup speed because I'm writing a script that can be called many, many times
2017-04-26T11:03:26Z _death: you can then load multiple scripts with the same core
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2017-04-26T11:03:46Z flip214: and even the monthly updates are just a "rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp && ./script" ...
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2017-04-26T11:04:22Z _death: yeah, have a `rebuild-core' shell script for doing that
2017-04-26T11:04:45Z xificurC: so I can create 1 core with all the libs I want to use and then I can write scripts that use that core. Is that correct?
2017-04-26T11:04:45Z flip214: having a superset of systems loaded doesn't really hurt. My image (including hunchentoot, which requires ~30 other systems(?), and some more) has a 0.03sec "empty" start time.
2017-04-26T11:04:54Z White_Flame: xificurC: it sounds like you're predicting a launch performance problem, and not actually observed that it's a problem yet?
2017-04-26T11:05:20Z xificurC: I can preload the libraries so I can already call e.g. cl-ppcre:split without doing any asdf:load-system or ql:quickload?
2017-04-26T11:05:26Z flip214: xificurC: yes.
2017-04-26T11:05:46Z flip214: White_Flame: when using ASDF, this costs at least 0.5 seconds.
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2017-04-26T11:06:24Z flip214: time ~/.my-sbcl --no-userinit --quit --eval '(print "hello")'
2017-04-26T11:06:27Z xificurC: White_Flame: not really. I am planning to write a script that I know will be called dozens of times. If a quicklisp startup takes 0.3 seconds here, that's a no-go
2017-04-26T11:06:28Z flip214: real    0m0,188s
2017-04-26T11:06:29Z _death: you'd also want a shell script `my-sbcl' or something that uses that core.. then you can do #!/path/to/my-sbcl --script or something
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2017-04-26T11:07:10Z White_Flame: xificurC: stepping back, it seems like you should find a way to batch your requests into a longer running lisp image, than trying to start & stop it so many times
2017-04-26T11:07:31Z xificurC: anyone has a build-core shell script somewhere on github/gitlab/... ?
2017-04-26T11:07:49Z flip214: xificurC: one sec.
2017-04-26T11:08:17Z xificurC: White_Flame: that changes the design of the whole script
2017-04-26T11:08:25Z _death: it can be a simple thing.. just loading the systems and uiop:dump-image
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2017-04-26T11:08:52Z flip214: xificurC: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345197
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2017-04-26T11:10:12Z xificurC: flip214: thanks, I'll take a look
2017-04-26T11:10:22Z flip214: xificurC: bash script in annotation, too
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2017-04-26T11:11:32Z flip214: xificurC: BSD license for that paste, BTW ;)
2017-04-26T11:11:47Z flip214: or public domain, even.
2017-04-26T11:12:23Z White_Flame: xificurC: given that you're looking to work hard on optimization tests & multiple coding efforts, it might be worth it to put that effort into reducing the number of calls instead
2017-04-26T11:13:32Z _death: White_Flame: I like to use pzmq for that kind of thing
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2017-04-26T11:17:20Z _death: still, there were some issues the last time I used it: https://github.com/death/FFmpeg/commit/91149048ecc8168475889a1a72f97febc13bc88a
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2017-04-26T12:37:19Z xificurC: White_Flame: I understand your point, unfortunately not all programs/scripts fall into that category. You wouldn't e.g. go put all of your database data into 1 big flat table just to be able to get all the necessary data in 1 query, would you
2017-04-26T12:37:46Z White_Flame: when speed is necessary, database queries tend to be glommed together into 1 mega-query, yes
2017-04-26T12:38:03Z White_Flame: though that doesn't change the tables
2017-04-26T12:38:15Z White_Flame: well, obviously schema updates are a part of latency optimization as well
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2017-04-26T13:45:06Z phoe: haha, I love playing with deployed Lisp apps
2017-04-26T13:45:17Z phoe: I had a config file that I read using #'READ
2017-04-26T13:45:28Z phoe: so now I'm abusing this to print more debug information by means of #.
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2017-04-26T14:25:18Z flip214: phoe: just (LOAD) that file
2017-04-26T14:25:31Z flip214: then you can as well do (TRACE ...) and similar stuff in there
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2017-04-26T15:56:37Z phoe: flip214: not really
2017-04-26T15:56:39Z phoe: it's a data file
2017-04-26T15:56:47Z phoe: my program READs it
2017-04-26T15:57:06Z phoe: so I'm limited to #. but nonetheless the stack-printing debugger hook gives me all the info I think I need
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2017-04-26T16:45:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is there a way to use peek-char on a binary stream or an equivalent for binary streams?
2017-04-26T16:46:47Z jackdaniel: Petit_Dejeuner: no, only via extension
2017-04-26T16:46:53Z jackdaniel: for instance clisp has ext:peek-byte
2017-04-26T16:47:05Z jackdaniel: there is no such thing included in the standard
2017-04-26T16:47:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks. That's kind of lame. I guess I could rewrite this to only use read-byte.
2017-04-26T16:48:56Z Xach: Petit_Dejeuner: what would you do if you had peek-byte?
2017-04-26T16:49:00Z jackdaniel: flexi-streams have peek-byte
2017-04-26T16:50:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: Xach: Replace all instances of peek-char with it. I'm writing (yet another) bencode library and I use peek to help me decide what the next item is.
2017-04-26T16:50:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: jackdaniel: Thanks, I'll look into those.
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2017-04-26T16:51:11Z jackdaniel: bencode?
2017-04-26T16:51:32Z jackdaniel: note, that peek-byte can't be used if you want to peek-char
2017-04-26T16:51:39Z jackdaniel: character may have more than 8 bits
2017-04-26T16:52:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: jackdaniel: "bencode?" https://wiki.theory.org/BitTorrentSpecification#Bencoding
2017-04-26T16:53:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: a binary format that supports similar structure to json, it's most popular use is for torrent files
2017-04-26T16:53:18Z jackdaniel: uhm, thx
2017-04-26T16:54:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, I just had it all open.
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2017-04-26T16:54:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: I don't expect you to read any of that.
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2017-04-26T17:33:02Z phoe: What is the simple way to read a list of all objects until EOF?
2017-04-26T17:33:06Z phoe: Uh
2017-04-26T17:33:08Z phoe: s/EOF/newline/
2017-04-26T17:34:09Z phoe: So if I have "foo bar baz quux\n" I want to get (FOO BAR BAZ QUUX)
2017-04-26T17:35:07Z beach: Read a line and then read from the resulting string.
2017-04-26T17:35:15Z beach: ... until EOF of that string.
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2017-04-26T17:37:06Z phoe: ...
2017-04-26T17:37:12Z phoe: Today is the first day I've used LOOP-FINISH.
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2017-04-26T17:37:52Z flip214: phoe: you could also have a CONCATENATED-STREAM that consists of a #\(, the file, and #\) ...
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2017-04-26T17:38:51Z beach: phoe: (with-input-from-string (stream (read-line)) (loop with eof = (list nil) for expression = (read stream nil eof) until (eq expression eof) collect expression))
2017-04-26T17:39:44Z phoe: beach: yes, thank you
2017-04-26T17:39:51Z phoe: flip214: I thought of it but then, geez, it would be a hack.
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2017-04-26T18:00:33Z didi: Is it possible to extend EQL?
2017-04-26T18:01:01Z phoe: didi: no.
2017-04-26T18:01:05Z phoe: EQL is strictly defined.
2017-04-26T18:01:15Z didi: phoe: Thank you.
2017-04-26T18:01:17Z phoe: clhs eql
2017-04-26T18:01:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2017-04-26T18:01:24Z phoe: didi: you can freely write your own predicate though.
2017-04-26T18:01:34Z phoe: and use it in functions and macros that accept equality predicates.
2017-04-26T18:01:58Z didi: phoe: I see.
2017-04-26T18:02:04Z phoe: didi: Why do you ask?
2017-04-26T18:02:24Z phoe: I mean - what's the problem that made you ask this question?
2017-04-26T18:02:26Z didi: phoe: Because I am defining a new type when I wanted to use EQL to compare objects of this type.
2017-04-26T18:02:52Z phoe: didi: what are these types?
2017-04-26T18:02:54Z phoe: I mean
2017-04-26T18:02:57Z phoe: What's the type definition?
2017-04-26T18:03:45Z didi: phoe: At the moment, threads, but I think they can evolve to something more opaque.
2017-04-26T18:04:20Z phoe: didi: best define your own predicate, foo= that accepts two objects of type foo and does its comparison login.
2017-04-26T18:04:25Z phoe: s/login/logic/
2017-04-26T18:04:55Z phoe: I mean.
2017-04-26T18:05:09Z phoe: If things are as simple as, "equal means the same", you are free to use EQ.
2017-04-26T18:05:34Z phoe: Since, for standard-objects, EQ, EQL, EQUAL and EQUALP act all the same anyway.
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2017-04-26T18:06:18Z phoe: If two objects can be equal despite not having the same identity, then you need to define your own predicate and therefore teach Lisp how it should think about such equality.
2017-04-26T18:07:18Z phoe: And as for the general case of equality, there were a few articles about equality in Lisp circling around.
2017-04-26T18:07:29Z phoe: minion: tell me about equality
2017-04-26T18:07:30Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``equality''.
2017-04-26T18:07:50Z phoe: And minion should be taught how to link to these articles.
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2017-04-26T18:13:24Z didi: phoe: Thanks. I think I will create my own predicate. SBCL's manual says "Thread type.  Do not rely on threads being structs as it may change in future versions.", which scares me a little.
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2017-04-26T18:15:38Z Bike: you want to have threads be equal?
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2017-04-26T18:15:54Z didi: Bike: Yes.
2017-04-26T18:16:00Z Bike: why?
2017-04-26T18:16:55Z didi: Because I will create and manipulate many of them and I want to check if I am on a cyclic dependency.
2017-04-26T18:17:33Z Bike: i mean, they're... processes. it's like asking if two functions are equal
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2017-04-26T18:18:18Z didi: Processes have unique ids in Linux, for instance.
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2017-04-26T18:18:42Z Bike: well yeah, you can compare one to itself.
2017-04-26T18:19:11Z Bike: eql should be fine for that
2017-04-26T18:19:35Z didi: Ah, interesting. This was my initial inclination.
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2017-04-26T18:22:03Z White_Flame: for struct instances, equal is the same as eq.  It's only equalp that walks structure slots
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2017-04-26T18:33:07Z jjkola: hi
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2017-04-26T18:35:47Z rpg: Anyone an expert with CL-DOT? I'm trying to ensure that a tree graph generated that way renders its children left to right in the order they appear in the points-to methods.  But at least sometimes, they are coming out backward.
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2017-04-26T18:43:01Z shrdlu68: jjkola: hi
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2017-04-26T19:24:52Z aeth: How do I use a subrange of a CFFI array? Do I just use a pointer to (* type-size offset)?
2017-04-26T19:25:24Z Bike: i don't see why not. it's a c array
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2017-04-26T19:27:43Z axion: Is there an easy way to get rid of the #<> characters when printing an object with PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT?
2017-04-26T19:28:02Z aeth: Would doing this create garbage? e.g. if I did (cffi:make-pointer (+ (cffi:pointer-address original-pointer) (* type-size offset)))
2017-04-26T19:28:36Z aeth: This is for the GL matrices in my draw function. I cannot create garbage in my draw function.
2017-04-26T19:29:28Z aeth: It looks like it would.
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2017-04-26T19:30:54Z aeth: I suppose I could cache the pointers.
2017-04-26T19:31:43Z aeth: I can just iterate on pointer objects that I've already created if that's the way to do it. Does anyone else have to do something like this?
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2017-04-26T19:36:47Z malice: axion: not really, but you can always use your own print method
2017-04-26T19:38:38Z axion: I must use the pprint-dispatch table instead of PRINT-OBJECT because these are not classes, but instead structs compiled to a :type.
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2017-04-26T19:40:00Z malice: is it portable?
2017-04-26T19:40:08Z axion: Yes
2017-04-26T19:40:10Z malice: you can define print-object on other types too, afaik
2017-04-26T19:40:17Z malice: not sure how portable it is though
2017-04-26T19:40:24Z malice: I might be wrong at this one
2017-04-26T19:41:37Z axion: No, you can't really.
2017-04-26T19:41:40Z malice: axion:anyway, quoting the clhs: " Outputs a printed representation of object on stream, beginning with ``#<'' and ending with ``>''. "
2017-04-26T19:41:52Z axion: Yep, ok, not a big deal.
2017-04-26T19:41:54Z malice: that's how print-unreadable-object is designed. You are probably looking for something else.
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2017-04-26T19:51:05Z Bike: you can print the class-name or whatever like print-unreadable-object does yourself, if you want
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2017-04-26T19:58:50Z axion: Ok
2017-04-26T19:59:50Z axion: Another question. Is it legal to have a compound function name like (setf func) in the function-names position of (declaim (ftype (function ..))), or must it be a symbol to be portable?
2017-04-26T20:00:10Z axion: s/portable/conformant/
2017-04-26T20:01:57Z Bike: no, setf whatever is fine.
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2017-04-26T20:31:57Z jjkola: night
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2017-04-26T20:34:20Z phoe: What is the FORMAT recipe for printing a symbol in lowercase?
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2017-04-26T20:34:37Z Bike: ~( does case, i think
2017-04-26T20:34:53Z Bike: clhs ~(
2017-04-26T20:34:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm
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2017-04-26T20:35:15Z phoe: Bike: thanks
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2017-04-26T20:44:27Z presiden: clhs #.
2017-04-26T20:44:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm
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2017-04-26T22:27:25Z Xach: what is this slime/sbcl nonsense
2017-04-26T22:29:56Z phoe: Xach: where
2017-04-26T22:31:34Z presiden: in our heart?
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2017-04-26T22:45:57Z rpg: Xach: ?
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2017-04-26T23:02:02Z rpg: Xach: are you referring to the SBCL API changes that require modification of SLIME?
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2017-04-27T02:15:23Z nyef: What SBCL API changes? SBCL's public API didn't change in any way that requires changes to other software. And private API changes are a matter of "what the heck are you doing poking around in there?!?"
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2017-04-27T02:53:38Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-04-27T05:13:39Z beach: I added four new tasks to the Lisp Guild: https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1
2017-04-27T05:14:08Z beach: These tasks are related to the "Cluster" assembler (I might rename it one day), mainly for x86 at this point.
2017-04-27T05:14:31Z beach: Each task consists of defining one single x86 instruction.
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2017-04-27T05:15:07Z shrdlu68: x86 assembly? It's been a while.
2017-04-27T05:15:45Z beach: Cluster is "the assembler with a difference" because it gets rid of the issue of surface syntax by defining an assembly program as a list of instructions represented as standard instances, i.e. instances of classes defined by DEFCLASS.
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2017-04-27T05:16:04Z borei: hi all !
2017-04-27T05:16:07Z beach: shrdlu68: I plan to use it as a backend for the SICL compiler.
2017-04-27T05:16:12Z beach: Hello borei.
2017-04-27T05:16:48Z shrdlu68: borei: Hello.
2017-04-27T05:18:00Z borei: everyday something new ! and it's very cool features. Looking at CFFI (my proj requires some graphics - opengl, idealy VTK, but it's C++, so a bit more chanlanging), so here what i found, and question is more theoretical then related directly to lisp porgramming
2017-04-27T05:18:43Z borei: it's pretty easy to call C function from lisp - load shared library define funtion with required signature and point to C-function - done
2017-04-27T05:19:21Z borei: in the CFFI i found defcallback - calls lisp function from C - how is that done ???
2017-04-27T05:19:36Z borei: does lisp do compilation on the fly ?
2017-04-27T05:20:04Z beach strongly suggests that people program in Common Lisp rather than in some inferior language.
2017-04-27T05:20:43Z borei: but some time you need to do it, or im wrong ??
2017-04-27T05:21:02Z loke``: borei: It does, but it doesn't have to in order to be able to handle callbacks (for example, CLISP doesn't do native compilation and ABCL compiles to the JVM, but both handle CFFI)
2017-04-27T05:21:36Z shrdlu68: beach: Interesting. So will will there be a directory for other architectures? ARM, PPC, etc?
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2017-04-27T05:22:20Z beach: shrdlu68: Yes, that's the plan.
2017-04-27T05:23:21Z borei: beach: why "strongly suggests that people program in Common Lisp ..." ?
2017-04-27T05:23:22Z beach: borei: We choose to work on certain things and not on others.  I have chosen to work on things where I need only Common Lisp.
2017-04-27T05:23:40Z beach: borei: Er, because that's the subject of this channel?
2017-04-27T05:23:51Z borei: :-)
2017-04-27T05:23:55Z borei: ok
2017-04-27T05:25:24Z beach: borei: I know I am weird.  I actually try to improve the situation of Common Lisp with respect to development tools and libraries.  Most people prefer to develop games or websites for their personal satisfaction.  Not that I don't get personal satisfaction from what I work on, of course.
2017-04-27T05:26:29Z fouric: this is true, now that you mention it
2017-04-27T05:26:31Z fouric: especially wrt myself
2017-04-27T05:26:46Z fouric: s/especially/including
2017-04-27T05:27:01Z beach: borei: It is a bit strange to me to have a channel dedicated to Common Lisp, and then to have a very significant number of people wanting to use C or C++, and a significant number of questions about why their programs crash when they use FFI to program in other languages.
2017-04-27T05:27:18Z shrdlu68: I too, though I just got started ;)
2017-04-27T05:27:22Z beach: borei: But, again, I know I am weird, so it is probably just me.
2017-04-27T05:27:48Z fouric: shrdlu68: tbf "just got started" can include people who've been working with it for years, given how deep CL is taken to be
2017-04-27T05:28:09Z borei: no no, you point i valid, i also trying to use "aliens" as less as possible
2017-04-27T05:28:24Z borei: s/you/your
2017-04-27T05:29:21Z borei: ok, i gonna back to my code, hope will have something in hands, damn excited like kid
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2017-04-27T06:01:02Z knusbaum: ahoy!
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2017-04-27T06:01:40Z beach: Hello knusbaum.
2017-04-27T06:01:50Z jackdaniel: hey
2017-04-27T06:03:55Z knusbaum: Testing out a clim-based IRC client I built on top of cl-irc.
2017-04-27T06:04:09Z beach: Nice!
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2017-04-27T06:07:52Z jackdaniel: knusbaum: do you have a repository for that? :-)
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2017-04-27T06:08:59Z knusbaum: I can put it up.
2017-04-27T06:09:11Z knusbaum: It's still super primitive
2017-04-27T06:10:01Z jackdaniel: only if you want to. every application starts from primitive to complex I think
2017-04-27T06:10:39Z knusbaum: https://imgur.com/a/DSfoj
2017-04-27T06:10:57Z knusbaum: That's what it looks like currently
2017-04-27T06:12:16Z jackdaniel: heh, looks like a start
2017-04-27T06:13:03Z jackdaniel: if you had some troubles with McCLIM or have any feedback (i.e something didn't work), I'd love to hear about it
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2017-04-27T06:13:30Z jackdaniel: to not clutter this channel, preferably on #clim – if you have any more problems, just come by and ask, somebody may know the answer
2017-04-27T06:13:58Z jackdaniel: why is it called WeeChat?
2017-04-27T06:14:50Z knusbaum: it's not. :)
2017-04-27T06:15:05Z knusbaum: That's a message-handling bug.
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2017-04-27T06:15:39Z knusbaum: The way I decide where to send messages is really stupid right now.
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2017-04-27T06:16:36Z jackdaniel: heh
2017-04-27T06:16:39Z jack_rabbit: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8c2ff9f2cdb491e4b56d7ce53ceaf353
2017-04-27T06:16:54Z knusbaum: That gist is it^
2017-04-27T06:17:24Z knusbaum: It's not even a proper package yet.
2017-04-27T06:17:38Z didi: Hum. CLtL2 says to append the suffix "p" to type predicates, but `defstruct' appends "-p".
2017-04-27T06:18:08Z beach: didi: It has to do with how many words the prefix has.
2017-04-27T06:18:28Z didi: beach: CLtL2 says to always use "p".
2017-04-27T06:18:34Z didi: For type predicates, I mean
2017-04-27T06:18:51Z beach: So we say consp but application-frame-p.
2017-04-27T06:19:54Z jackdaniel: knusbaum: really short, cool you were able to wrap something usable with it :)
2017-04-27T06:20:07Z beach: didi: CLtL2 is neither the standard nor a style reference.
2017-04-27T06:20:28Z knusbaum: Yeah, it's actually been a lot of fun.
2017-04-27T06:20:33Z didi: beach: I see.
2017-04-27T06:21:07Z knusbaum: I hate working with most GUI libraries.
2017-04-27T06:22:15Z didi: beach: Actually, I misunderstood the paragraph. Oh well.
2017-04-27T06:22:38Z beach: didi: So what does it say?
2017-04-27T06:22:46Z didi: beach: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/bed36f58
2017-04-27T06:24:03Z beach: That's closer to what I said.
2017-04-27T06:24:10Z didi: Indeed.
2017-04-27T06:26:00Z didi: So `string-lessp' is a special case for `lessp', which respects the initial rule for "-p".
2017-04-27T06:26:32Z beach: Yes, I saw that.
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2017-04-27T06:26:48Z didi: I am checking my understanding.
2017-04-27T06:29:51Z akkad_: #linpeople.log:[11/20/00 @ 05:46:16] <Fare> Ober: LISP sucks
2017-04-27T06:29:57Z akkad_: haha. how things change
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2017-04-27T06:30:51Z jackdaniel: well, it does :-) but it sucks a bit less I suppose
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2017-04-27T06:47:23Z easye: Lisp sucks *much* less because of Fare
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2017-04-27T07:40:11Z phoe: Hey everyone
2017-04-27T07:40:22Z beach: Hello phoe.
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2017-04-27T07:42:11Z shrdlu68: phoe: Hi.
2017-04-27T07:42:14Z axion: Does anyone know of a macro someone has written which extends DEFUN to add a declaim for ftype/inline?
2017-04-27T07:42:46Z axion: I have written one, but I cannot work through the edge case that is the syntax for &key arguments in an ftype proclaimation
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2017-04-27T07:45:03Z Bike: what's the issue?
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2017-04-27T07:46:49Z axion: Well I wrote a quick and dirty macro in 10 minutes. let me paste what I have
2017-04-27T07:47:10Z beach: I think Bike is asking what problem you are trying to solve.
2017-04-27T07:49:15Z axion: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345257
2017-04-27T07:50:29Z axion: The problem is I want to inform the DECLAIM of the type of the keyword arguments in the form they are expected in such as: &key (:min single-float) (:max single-float)
2017-04-27T07:50:41Z axion: I cannot adapt my naive extraction function to do that
2017-04-27T07:50:50Z Bike: well, i meant both
2017-04-27T07:51:02Z axion: &KEY AXVEC is wrong
2017-04-27T07:51:47Z Bike: this is supposed to mean that the argument is called out-vec, the key arg is :out-vec, the default value is 1, and it's typed as an "axvec"?
2017-04-27T07:52:39Z axion: It's an example...do not look at it as real code :)
2017-04-27T07:52:56Z Bike: i just want to know that i understand your desired syntax
2017-04-27T07:53:05Z Bike: well, if i was you i'd use the lambda list parser in alexandria
2017-04-27T07:53:06Z axion: Let me annotate. One moment
2017-04-27T07:53:13Z Bike: should make things simple enough
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2017-04-27T07:57:31Z axion: Bike: annotated
2017-04-27T07:58:00Z axion: My code works, except for keyword arguments in the DECLAIM form
2017-04-27T07:58:21Z Bike: and optional and aux, i bet
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2017-04-27T07:59:34Z axion: actually no. optional work fine
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2017-04-27T08:01:21Z Bike: really? something like &optional ((foo 1) vec) should fail in the same way, yeah?
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2017-04-27T08:01:46Z axion: It doesn't, because the syntax within a declaim form is different
2017-04-27T08:01:47Z Bike: oh, i guess because you don't need the parameter name.
2017-04-27T08:02:23Z axion: the package qualifier is needed for keyword symbols
2017-04-27T08:02:37Z Bike: right. well, i'd still say to use the parser
2017-04-27T08:02:58Z axion: I wasn't aware of such a thing in alexandria. I'm scoping it out now
2017-04-27T08:06:25Z axion: Thanks
2017-04-27T08:07:16Z axion: except it fails to parse because of the packed required arguments
2017-04-27T08:08:11Z Bike: oh, yeah, it tries to parse the actual parameters too. forgot.
2017-04-27T08:08:22Z axion: Yeah :/
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2017-04-27T11:05:40Z pillton: mop validate-superclass
2017-04-27T11:05:40Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/validate-superclass.html
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2017-04-27T13:18:25Z axion: is there a way to get at the docstring of a defstruct with #'documentation?
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2017-04-27T13:19:15Z beach: clhs documentation
2017-04-27T13:19:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2017-04-27T13:20:20Z beach: Should be (documentation name 'structure) or (documentation (find-class 'name) 'type)
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2017-04-27T13:21:18Z axion: Ah, I missed that. Thank you.
2017-04-27T13:21:29Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-04-27T13:21:57Z beach: Any particular reason you are using structure classes rather than standard classes?
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2017-04-27T13:24:10Z ogamita: Notice that there are macros that allows you to define classes using the same syntax as defstruct, if that's the reason.
2017-04-27T13:26:23Z axion: beach: I have been over this a few times here. It's to have typed structs, that compile down to arrays except with named slots for accessing elements.
2017-04-27T13:28:08Z Xach: that is more a description of the effect than the reason
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2017-04-27T13:28:23Z beach: Exactly.
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2017-04-27T13:29:39Z axion: and also for code that is quite a few years old that is a beast to maintain, but it is the result of a friend and I disassembling a ton to write an efficient linear algebra library.
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2017-04-27T14:08:27Z ogamita: axion: so (defstruct (example (:type vector)) …)
2017-04-27T14:09:25Z ogamita: axion: normally, changing the defstruct option (or s/defstruct/define-structure/ to get CLOS classes) will left the other program properties invariants and can be done rather easily.
2017-04-27T14:10:03Z ogamita: (Unless you're doing type punning, for performance reasons).
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2017-04-27T16:31:27Z beach: I just created two more (very small) tasks on the Lisp Guild site: https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1
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2017-04-27T16:40:29Z Reinisch: sorry, I've been slacking. I'll get back on the horse soon!
2017-04-27T16:40:35Z Reinisch: thanks for your work beach
2017-04-27T16:40:59Z beach: Heh, no obligation, of course.
2017-04-27T16:41:28Z beach: Anyway, time for me to go cook dinner, so I won't do anything else until tomorrow morning (UTC+2).
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2017-04-27T17:47:57Z jackdaniel: any roswell user online?
2017-04-27T17:48:22Z jackdaniel: how to install custom lisp build (for instance sbcl compiled by me) in it from specified path under known name
2017-04-27T17:48:25Z jackdaniel: ?
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2017-04-27T17:48:47Z jackdaniel: so I can do: ros install my-sbcl-1.4.2
2017-04-27T17:50:28Z jackdaniel: or `ros run sbcl/my-1.2
2017-04-27T17:50:31Z jackdaniel: `
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2017-04-27T18:39:49Z 
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2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: eazar001 sohail shrdlu68 warweasle doby162 sz0 Grue`` kolko_ Intensity practica` dddddd quazimodo pillton nirved l04m33 milanj pve ryanbw_ shpx Ukari grublet terpri angavrilov heurist vlatkoB_ oleo akkad_ schoppenhauer NeverDie brendyn d4ryus3 rk[ghost] Cthulhux Patzy yrdz fe[nl]ix Blkt zaquest mindCrime_ yoosi funnel dwrngr whartung DGASAU Guest24524 zooey_ SlashLife lxpz easye daemoz _krator44 MrWoohoo askatasuna ikopico HDurer2 Suzuran jsnell nikivi
2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: moei seg White_Flame otwieracz jackdaniel arrdem drdo watersoul_ minion loke`` whiteline Tordek kjeldahl Orion3k Oladon Younder zzkt[m] harlequin78[m] Jach[m] thorondor[m] astronavt[m] pipping RichardPaulBck[m M-Illandan jfb4 Khisanth hvxgr roscoe_tw mazoe DeadTrickster ``Erik beach anaumov megalography Ober oystewh_ jmasseo_ Zotan_ getha ogkloo MoALTz Lord_of_Life jdz felideon itruslove fouric ryan_vw Oddity MrBusiness Tristam borodust zacts lemoinem
2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: Hoolootwo Sigyn groovy2shoes thinkpad Guest99302 foom shka nyef segmond emacsomancer presiden froggey AntiSpamMeta nydel __main__ beaky Lord_Nightmare tanuzzo Mandus tristero |3b| Posterdati thebored troydm abgo mathrick paratox grumble nullman stee_3_ dlowe mikaelj ski davsebamse phoe dim j_king kimpira GGMethos erethon antoszka Karunamon dmiles clog leo_song cpape kushal cyberlard add^_ mingus snits argoneus lonjil eschatologist CEnnis91 shenghi
2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: AeroNotix dan64 fluxit libreman justinmcp jasom fiddlerwoaroof brucem velvetcore_ ecraven midre pareidolia bungoman_ himmAllRight loke j0ni ericmathison vsync krrrcks c0dehero Nikotiini fluter norfumpit ym vlnx trn vibs29 coyo p_l axion mulk ggherdov switchy alphor misv djh lancetw billstclair sigjuice_ luis` raydeejay killmaster larsen benny_ mbrock gadwin_ tessier_ GuilOooo_ phadthai d4gg4d_ rann stux|RC mklk_ chinchilla _death Firedancer pankracy
2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: tilpner f32ff a7f4 xantoz malcom2073 jself zbigniew malm les srcerer HDurer Reinisch ksool vaporatorius mearnsh jibanes zymurgy pent drot gensym Grue` Meow-J failproofshark paroneayea cartwright MorTal1ty swflint angular_mike_ xristos Aritheanie Petit_Dejeuner dedmons SAL9000 z0d Vivek brandonz arjenve drmeister peccu1 larme detergnet PuercoPop shaftoe trig-ger tobel N3vYn Riviera arrsim gko rotty sgript Xach adulteratedjedi mnoonan chu mtd adlai eMBee
2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: dschoepe nopf Colleen specbot vert2 giraffe TMA lpaste aaronjensen emerson sukaeto Fade unrahul l1x kilimanjaro rvirding redcedar tiago sveit anachrome tokenrove djinni` tmc rjeli mrSpec aeth ircbrowse eagleflo wizzo mood vhost- cyraxjoe joast kjak_____ joeygibson baroncharlus zkat qlkzy e azrazalea newcup dxtr pchrist kbtr __SiCC__ nicdev tokik tephra_ sbryant lieven o`connor_ isoraqathedh ft tkd Zhivago omilu filwisher gbyers kjak_ pok Odin- kini kjak___
2017-04-27T18:39:49Z names: nhandler guaqua jurov josh5tone gabot koisoke kjak____ nimiux mjl asedeno banjiewen jerme_ tfb cebreidian knobo jean377 voidlily tomaw neuri8 Walex copec flip214 derrida gendl Subfusc joga ec\_ pacon_ XachX danlentz alms_clozure gz_ splittist taij33n chavezgu abbe H4ns amoe_ renard_ jcloud
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2017-04-27T18:42:34Z TruePika: I can't figure out how to print some ANSI escapes without advancing the column (for pprint etc.)
2017-04-27T18:43:53Z TruePika: e.g. preventing "^[[49;39m" from advancing the column for printing
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2017-04-27T18:45:33Z shrdlu68: TruePika: Is the terminal recognizing the codes?
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2017-04-27T18:46:05Z TruePika: shrdlu68: I don't know if screen does (I'll check in a bit), but PuTTY does for sure
2017-04-27T18:46:33Z TruePika: looks it
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2017-04-27T18:47:48Z shrdlu68: strange. So when you ouput the code for color yellow, for example, the pointer position advances?
2017-04-27T18:48:13Z TruePika: from what I can tell, using pprint-tabular
2017-04-27T18:49:02Z TruePika: (progn (pprint #<something with escapes>) (pprint-tabular ...)) doesn't have the first column align as expected
2017-04-27T18:49:19Z TruePika: err first column on non-first line
2017-04-27T18:50:03Z TruePika: the physical TTY cursor doesn't advance, but Lisp assumes it does
2017-04-27T18:50:35Z shrdlu68: Ah, I see.
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2017-04-27T18:50:51Z malice: o/
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2017-04-27T18:52:37Z TruePika: I output 16 characters which don't advance the TTY cursor (including #\Esc), with the tabbing interval at four, it looks like there are 20 extra spaces of indent
2017-04-27T18:53:35Z TruePika: (which would be correct if all those characters advance TTY a single em)
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2017-04-27T18:54:31Z TruePika: I'm now also curious about how double-width characters are treated, both by screen and Lisp (I know PuTTY and IIRC Vim work with them correctly)
2017-04-27T18:55:16Z shrdlu68: TruePika: Would it make a difference if you used format or some other means to print the codes?
2017-04-27T18:56:05Z TruePika: I'm using format, actually (so I can include the ^[ without literally typing it and potentially confusing the TTY)
2017-04-27T18:56:23Z TruePika: but I can format it into a string and use that
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2017-04-27T18:58:43Z TruePika: Ideally, I should be able to say "this is zero-width, don't pprint newline or touch the column position"
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2017-04-27T18:59:21Z TruePika: but I don't see any facility for that
2017-04-27T18:59:34Z shrdlu68: Yeah, me neither.
2017-04-27T18:59:50Z TruePika: aside from trying some sort of printf() call which might break with some stream types
2017-04-27T19:03:28Z fouric: malice: \o
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2017-04-27T19:34:24Z joe9: any recommendations for an easy-to-understand pure lisp variant, please? I found LispKit Lisp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lispkit_Lisp , but, would prefer strict evaluation.
2017-04-27T19:34:28Z joe9: please?
2017-04-27T19:35:02Z Xach: This channel is for Common Lisp. I don't really know where you might ask your question, sorry.
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2017-04-27T19:36:25Z joe9: Xach: oh, sorry for the bother. I will check around for any other generic lisp channel.
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2017-04-27T19:36:39Z Bike: i think there is ##lisp
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2017-04-27T19:37:34Z joe9: Bike: cool, Thanks a lot.
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2017-04-27T19:56:16Z shrdlu68: Adding ocsp support to cl-tls, and I'm seeing rather strange behavior with LetsEncrypt ocsp responders.
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2017-04-27T20:14:47Z phoe: clhs first
2017-04-27T20:14:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_firstc.htm
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2017-04-27T20:22:22Z mazoe_: Hmm. I’m getting lost in the complexity that is CL paths. How does one get/print the string representation of a pathname?
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2017-04-27T20:23:17Z Xach: mazoe_: PRINT is one option.
2017-04-27T20:23:26Z Xach: mazoe_: what are you hoping to do with that string?
2017-04-27T20:24:07Z mazoe_: Xach: I’d like to pass it to a unix utility. So I need an absolute or relative unix pathname
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2017-04-27T20:24:22Z mazoe_: so, e.g., from (make-pathname :directory `(:relative “dir1”) :name "file.txt”), I would get “./dir1/file.txt”
2017-04-27T20:24:30Z Xach: mazoe_: in that case, you should try to get the "native namestring" in some form.
2017-04-27T20:24:45Z Xach: mazoe_: because CL and the underlying OS might disagree about the details of the name.
2017-04-27T20:25:02Z Xach: I use sbcl and so use sb-ext:native-namestring for that pretty often.
2017-04-27T20:25:03Z mazoe_: (namestring mypathname) gives me an error about “too many dots in the name …”
2017-04-27T20:25:15Z mazoe_: Xach: right, thanks
2017-04-27T20:25:30Z TruePika: I'm back from the bus ride home...
2017-04-27T20:25:32Z Xach: namestring is the standard function, but it is for interoperability with the lisp currently running, not for external OS purposes.
2017-04-27T20:25:35Z mazoe_: Xach: that’s the one
2017-04-27T20:25:37Z mazoe_: right
2017-04-27T20:25:40Z TruePika: I was reading the hyperspec...
2017-04-27T20:25:42Z mazoe_: of course, that makes sense
2017-04-27T20:25:51Z mazoe_: Xach: thanks!
2017-04-27T20:25:52Z TruePika: "However, since the effect of the pretty printer can be customized by conforming programs, the necessary flexibility is provided for individual programs to achieve an arbitrary degree of aesthetic control."
2017-04-27T20:26:14Z TruePika: yeah, except for the whole thing with escape codes, etc.
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2017-04-27T20:32:33Z shrdlu68: TruePika: Could you paste a simplified version of your code?
2017-04-27T20:33:24Z TruePika: meh, my VM is down
2017-04-27T20:33:34Z TruePika: I can recreate it, though
2017-04-27T20:33:58Z TruePika: (not bringing VM back up, but I know what to do)
2017-04-27T20:35:29Z shrdlu68: TruePika: Highly unlikely, but I was thinking perhaps creating a new stream using something like #'make-broadcast-stream and writing the ANSI codes to that might help.
2017-04-27T20:35:57Z shrdlu68: ...but I doubt it would.
2017-04-27T20:36:21Z TruePika: clhs write-char
2017-04-27T20:36:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_cha.htm
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2017-04-27T20:52:26Z TruePika: shrdlu68: https://gist.github.com/TruePikachu/fd93f65d1fb3864878d38fc9a5dd2750
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2017-04-27T20:53:10Z TruePika: Nothing from #'invoke-csi should be advancing the text position, ideally
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2017-04-27T20:55:03Z TruePika: I have a couple comments on the gist; one showing SBCL outputting ultimately to PuTTY, and one showing CCL on my Windows host
2017-04-27T20:55:22Z TruePika: (which shows where the extra space comes from)
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2017-04-27T21:33:44Z shrdlu68: TruePika: have you tried printing a newline before calling pprint-tabular? When I do, I don't get the spaces.
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2017-04-27T21:38:34Z shrdlu68: I'm off to bed. Good night y'all.
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2017-04-27T22:06:41Z dbjergaard: why is this construction giving me an error: (defun foobar (foo) (format t "~a" foo))
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2017-04-27T22:06:57Z dbjergaard: I keep getting "the variable FOO is unbound"
2017-04-27T22:07:21Z dbjergaard: I have a package I made with quickpackage, and I'm sitting at my slime repl
2017-04-27T22:07:43Z Bike: in isolation that function definition is fine, so it's a problem with your setup.
2017-04-27T22:07:59Z dbjergaard: i am a dumb, its because I'm using evil and its not putting the cursor at the end of the s-expression
2017-04-27T22:08:00Z dbjergaard: sorry
2017-04-27T22:08:17Z Bike: it's just good you got it working
2017-04-27T22:08:37Z dbjergaard: yeah I rage quit last night after trying to get it going for a 1/2 hr
2017-04-27T22:08:44Z dbjergaard: my fault for using such a weird setup
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2017-04-27T22:16:35Z dbjergaard: does anyone know how to extend an existing package in sbcl? I'm writing functions that should live in sb-posix
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2017-04-27T22:19:04Z White_Flame: dbjergaard: (in-package #:sb-posix) (defun ...), or  (defun sb-posix::myfunc ...)
2017-04-27T22:19:08Z White_Flame: unless the package is locked
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2017-04-27T22:19:33Z dbjergaard: ah thanks
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2017-04-27T22:19:55Z nyef: dbjergaard: Unless you're writing stuff to be included in SBCL as part of SB-POSIX, hacking up the SB-POSIX package is not recommended.
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2017-04-28T03:36:08Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-04-28T03:36:41Z holycow: hello
2017-04-28T03:39:00Z daemoz: morning beach!
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2017-04-28T03:58:48Z beach: In case anyone missed it, I posted several very small tasks on the Lisp Guild: https://github.com/Lisp-Guild/lisp-todo/projects/1
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2017-04-28T04:06:11Z beach: Several of these tasks took about as long to for me to post as they would have taken for me to just go ahead and do.  But the point here is for people who might be interested in learning about some of this software to start getting involved through some simple improvements.
2017-04-28T04:08:03Z beach: Take the assembler (Cluster) for instance.  It might take a few hours for someone interested to accomplish the tasks of adding the shift instructions to the instruction description.  Once that is done, that someone also knows something about how the assembler is designed, so could very well get involved with more instruction definitions and more features.
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2017-04-28T04:19:02Z beach: Just in case someone thinks something like "Groan!  An assembler.  How boring!  We already have a bunch of those.", Cluster is the assembler with a difference.  Rather than feeding it input in the form of text or nested lists, the input is a sequence of standard instances.  This way, we avoid the entire issue of syntax, especially for complicated address modes of the x86.
2017-04-28T04:22:54Z beach: Cluster is one more software component where I want to get away from the Unix way of imposing serialization and de-serialization.  Furthermore, surface syntax seems to be the first point of disagreement in many situations, so I just avoid the issue.  I mean, take documentation.  Whatever choice is made (Texinfo, LaTeX, Docbook, Markdown, ...) it seems 90% of Lispers disagree; probably because there are 10 or more possible choices that
2017-04-28T04:22:54Z beach: are all reasonable.
2017-04-28T04:30:08Z azzamsa: Morning :)
2017-04-28T04:32:24Z easye applauds Beach's efforts with the Guild.  "I think such detail will repay many dividends down the road."
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2017-04-28T04:33:14Z beach: Thanks easye.
2017-04-28T04:33:19Z beach: Hello azzamsa.
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2017-04-28T04:53:17Z pillton: Can you explain a bit more the "serialization and de-serialization"?
2017-04-28T04:58:30Z pillton: beach: Are you referring to the composition via unix pipes approach?
2017-04-28T04:59:34Z beach: Yes.
2017-04-28T05:00:14Z beach: The "Unix philosophy" (which should really be called the "Unix necessary kludge") is to have different programs communicate via pipes.
2017-04-28T05:00:40Z beach: And that exists because of the 16-bit limitation in address space.
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2017-04-28T05:00:51Z beach: But we don't have that problem anymore, because we now have 64-bit address spaces.
2017-04-28T05:01:11Z beach: So we can communicate between different programs by passing a pointer to the data.
2017-04-28T05:01:41Z beach: The consequences are that you don't really need any surface syntax to communicate between (say) the compiler and the assembler.
2017-04-28T05:02:22Z pillton: Well, you may not need a surface /character/ syntax. You still need an "expression" syntax.
2017-04-28T05:03:02Z beach: Not if by "expression" you mean what is typically done, i.e. using only lists and trivial atoms such as numbers and symbols.
2017-04-28T05:03:34Z beach: But, you are technically right of course, since every piece of Common Lisp data is an "expression".
2017-04-28T05:03:40Z pillton: The two programs need to agree on something.
2017-04-28T05:03:50Z beach: Yes, you are right.
2017-04-28T05:04:49Z beach: So Cluster (the assembler) uses (I am simplifying a bit) a list of INSTRUCTIONs, where an instruction is a standard instance.
2017-04-28T05:05:17Z beach: So now I can use more sophisticated generic dispatch than if an instruction were represented as a list.
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2017-04-28T05:11:20Z beach: Since I mentioned documentation, I have a similar idea for that.  I think a document should be a data structure with a well defined protocol, using CLOS for access and manipulation.  Then we can quit bickering about input surface syntax, and start working on the essence, namely how a document can be manipulated, displayed, etc.
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2017-04-28T05:11:56Z pillton: That is what I did when I designed my markup language.
2017-04-28T05:12:24Z pillton: Example is here: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/doc/dictionary.COXup
2017-04-28T05:13:31Z beach: That's good.  But notice that you said "markup language", which is firmly about a specific surface syntax.
2017-04-28T05:14:21Z beach: And I don't see the documentation of the protocol for manipulating the document.
2017-04-28T05:14:42Z pillton: You specify the following http://paste.lisp.org/display/345328 to read it.
2017-04-28T05:15:00Z pillton: After you read it you get a list of objects.
2017-04-28T05:15:22Z pillton: It borrows ideas of the lisp reader.
2017-04-28T05:17:11Z beach: When I say "manipulating the document", I don't mean "document" as in a file containing a sequence of characters in some markup language.
2017-04-28T05:18:03Z White_Flame: in my very personal experience & opinion, I think the schemas of OO are a little more cumbersome than the basic data structures and a good matcher tool
2017-04-28T05:18:19Z beach: pillton: I think we are talking past each other.
2017-04-28T05:19:16Z pillton: beach: I don't think so. COXup was created to make it easier to get objects to manipulate.
2017-04-28T05:19:24Z White_Flame: a matcher can basically duck-type whatever components happen to exist on the input instructions, which can reduce the number of cases to handle
2017-04-28T05:19:47Z beach: pillton: But you are showing me the input to that tool, and not how to manipulate the result of reading it.
2017-04-28T05:20:16Z beach: pillton: And I am trying very hard to NOT mention the exact format of the input.
2017-04-28T05:20:43Z pillton: beach: Oh ok. Well that is complicated. You have to maintain references, section headings and the like. It ends up being a database problem.
2017-04-28T05:21:31Z beach: pillton: That is precisely what I do not want (at least not if by database you mean some relational database that stores things on disk).
2017-04-28T05:22:14Z beach: pillton: What I want is a CLOS protocol for manipulating a structured version of the document, in the form of an in-memory data structure consisting of standard instances and other Common Lisp objects.
2017-04-28T05:23:29Z pillton: beach: Sure, but you end up with a heap of objects which are interconnected by keys. You have to write all of the boiler plate to link the objects together in order to generate an output (HTML for example).
2017-04-28T05:23:34Z beach: I know it is REALLY HARD to start thinking outside the Unix straitjacket.
2017-04-28T05:24:26Z beach: pillton: And that is WAY easier than to decide how to represent object interconnections as a sequence of bytes.
2017-04-28T05:26:38Z pillton: Well, you still have to have a way to create the objects which is what the markup language is for. I am of the view that most markup languages introduce a tight coupling between the input and output.
2017-04-28T05:26:48Z pillton: I wanted to avoid that.
2017-04-28T05:27:03Z beach: Now we are talking.
2017-04-28T05:27:53Z beach: But by deciding on a markup language, yet another such language has been introduced, thereby increasing the potential number of Common Lisp programmers that would disagree if that choice were to be made.
2017-04-28T05:28:35Z pillton: Well, if the other markup languages allowed me to customize it then I would have used it.
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2017-04-28T05:29:23Z pillton: I wanted something like READ but without the parentheses.
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2017-04-28T05:30:16Z beach: I understand.  And I want something that doesn't even mention how it is supposed to be read from a sequence of bytes.
2017-04-28T05:30:43Z nyef: pillton: So... XML?
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2017-04-28T05:31:25Z pillton: XML is an exercise in managing closing sections. I just want to write.
2017-04-28T05:41:30Z beach: This page summarizes what I want for documentation: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/document-library.html
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2017-04-28T05:46:38Z pillton: I think it would be difficult to do. Consider the difference between the dictionary sections of the hyperspec and the non dictionary sections. The former could be summarised as data with text and the later as mostly text.
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2017-04-28T05:49:02Z holycow: after reading all of that, my brain bought a one way bus ticket to a vacation
2017-04-28T05:49:12Z holycow: i know some of those words
2017-04-28T05:49:13Z holycow: :)
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2017-04-28T06:04:15Z beach: pillton: Perceived difficulty has never stopped me in the past from trying.
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2017-04-28T06:05:39Z beach: pillton: If I were to listen to everyone who told me that it can't be done, that it is too difficult, that I am not smart enough to do it, that it can't be done by one person, that nobody will use it, etc., I would have given up a long time ago.
2017-04-28T06:05:55Z pillton: Me neither, but you have no doubt seen generalisations that are too general.
2017-04-28T06:06:34Z beach: pillton: I make up such generalizations all the time.  That way, I learn much more about the problem at hand.
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2017-04-28T06:07:10Z beach: holycow: Sorry if that page is too cryptic.  I'll take feedback if you care to give some.
2017-04-28T06:07:24Z pillton: beach: I'm not trying to discourage. I like it when my assumptions crumble.
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2017-04-28T06:08:00Z beach: pillton: I know you are not trying to discourage.  Even if you did, it wouldn't work. :)
2017-04-28T06:11:39Z holycow: i'm not sure i can say anything that wouldn't be noise.  i have been thinking about the html example where we separate the content from presentation.  i have wanted to build a css style (using s-expressions) set of expressions that could point to a plain text document and demark for both, visual presentation and actualy document structure.
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2017-04-28T06:12:53Z holycow: my reference point is only documents, that is really all i have ever worked with. i don't know how that can be generalized out.
2017-04-28T06:13:14Z beach: It is hard stuff.  But well worth thinking about.
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2017-04-28T06:16:46Z |3b|: is there a good way to check if some value is the same at compile and load time?
2017-04-28T06:17:10Z pillton: constantp?
2017-04-28T06:17:23Z |3b|: some calculated value :)
2017-04-28T06:17:44Z |3b| needs to check foreign library versions
2017-04-28T06:18:29Z pillton: Oh that problem. I ended up providing a run-tests command.
2017-04-28T06:20:02Z beach: |3b|: It's a tricky problem, because "same" is not well defined in that case.
2017-04-28T06:20:05Z |3b|: actually i guess the problem is to calculate a value at either compile or load time and make sure load-time doesn't overwrite a value from compile time
2017-04-28T06:20:32Z |3b|: beach: EQ is enough for how i'm using it (or i can define it myself)
2017-04-28T06:20:44Z beach: |3b|: MAKE-LOAD-FORM is sometimes needed.
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2017-04-28T06:20:58Z |3b|: simplest i can think of is just use defconstant and let it complain, but i'd rather have an informative message
2017-04-28T06:21:05Z pillton: eval-when too.
2017-04-28T06:21:44Z |3b|: yeah, a pair of eval-when to calculate each separately and then pick one is next best option i can think of
2017-04-28T06:22:49Z pillton: I fail to see how the foreign library version comes in to play here though.
2017-04-28T06:22:55Z |3b|: ugliest is a single eval-when and using *compile-file-pathname* and similar to try to figure out if it is compiling or just loading
2017-04-28T06:23:11Z |3b|: i modify the FFI definitions based on the version
2017-04-28T06:23:33Z pillton: Right, but this would have to happen at runtime too, not just at load time.
2017-04-28T06:23:41Z |3b|: so i need to be able to check at runtime that the library being used matches the one used at compile time
2017-04-28T06:24:10Z |3b|: which means i need to remember the version from compilation, or if it wasn't compiled, from loading
2017-04-28T06:24:18Z |3b|: but not the version from loading if it was compiled
2017-04-28T06:24:56Z |3b|: (and load time might not match runtime if someone saves a core, so they need to be separate)
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2017-04-28T06:25:09Z pillton: That is what I was referring too.
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2017-04-28T07:16:59Z razzy: hi, I would like to have portable lisp development enviroment on linux. for windows there is http://www.iqool.de/lispstick.html
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2017-04-28T07:25:12Z jackdaniel: razzy: right now people usually use emacs + slime + quicklisp on Linux
2017-04-28T07:26:57Z phoe: razzy: portacle
2017-04-28T07:27:14Z phoe: ask #shirakumo in case of problems with it
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2017-04-28T07:27:50Z jackdaniel: phoe: don't recommend something, what is declared not being complete yet by the author to the new users
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2017-04-28T07:30:12Z Petit_Dejeuner also uses emacs + slime + quicklisp
2017-04-28T07:30:21Z flip214: jackdaniel: hmm, why not? both sides can learn from that. and it does seem good enough for testing already.
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2017-04-28T07:31:08Z jackdaniel: flip214: I think, that if someone looks IDE because he wants to learn CL, and IDE crashes, he may give up spreading bad word about CL itself
2017-04-28T07:31:19Z jackdaniel: it's OK to try it by people who already use CL, sure
2017-04-28T07:31:29Z jackdaniel: s/looks/looks for/
2017-04-28T07:31:35Z phoe: oh well
2017-04-28T07:32:04Z phoe: should I instead say that there's none, unless you build a portable environment yourself?
2017-04-28T07:32:08Z jackdaniel: and I think it is a good project, just saying that recommending it to *new* CL users isn't the best strategy before it's considered "ready"
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2017-04-28T07:32:32Z jackdaniel didn't build his emacs, just installed it from the repository
2017-04-28T07:32:39Z razzy: jackdaniel: portable is the keyword
2017-04-28T07:32:45Z razzy: phoe: thank you
2017-04-28T07:32:48Z jackdaniel: portably across what?
2017-04-28T07:32:49Z phoe: build as in create the portability in the environment
2017-04-28T07:32:53Z jackdaniel: s/portably/portable/
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2017-04-28T07:35:37Z razzy: jackdaniel: I was considering http://appimage.org/
2017-04-28T07:36:48Z jackdaniel: it is some kind of container, right?
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2017-04-28T07:37:21Z razzy: yes, but i do not know how it works
2017-04-28T07:37:53Z phoe: appimages work well but are immutable
2017-04-28T07:38:09Z razzy: phoe: immutable?
2017-04-28T07:38:13Z phoe: when you build software, you will want to be able to save new files for QL software you download for instance
2017-04-28T07:38:16Z phoe: yes, they're huge binaries
2017-04-28T07:38:27Z phoe: and you can't really put new stuff in them
2017-04-28T07:38:42Z phoe: AFAIK portacle does not have such a structure, it remembers what it downloaded.
2017-04-28T07:39:21Z phoe: but then again, I have not used appimages much - they probably have some kind of per-machine persistence, it was just me who happened to work with appimages that stupidly did not use that feature
2017-04-28T07:42:19Z razzy: phoe: so you tried it? It seems useless, if you cannot edit internal configs
2017-04-28T07:42:41Z razzy: phoe: so you tried appimage?
2017-04-28T07:44:05Z phoe: razzy: I tried appimages that were already premade
2017-04-28T07:44:14Z phoe: I never tried building one myself
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2017-04-28T07:46:04Z phoe: I think you could try packaging Emacs+SBCL+Quicklisp with an AppImage and try to nonetheless make it remember where to look for its downloaded files and local projects that you want to work on
2017-04-28T07:46:54Z razzy: phoe: righ after i try portacle :]
2017-04-28T07:49:16Z phoe: razzy: it might be tricky - you might want to define additional directories in which Emacs stores its config, Quicklisp stores downloaded software and ASDF looks for projects, which requires some basic knowledge about the Lisp ecosystem, plus then there is bundling everything and making it run portably.
2017-04-28T07:49:38Z phoe: and I don't say it to discourage you - just outlining the things that need to be done for it to decently work.
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2017-04-28T07:50:46Z phoe: because I assume that, by portable, you don't mean "popping the same starting image every single time", but you mean "something that I can pop on a flash drive that will automatically be able to load and compile and let me work on my projects no matter what physical box I'm on"
2017-04-28T07:51:29Z jackdaniel: ANSI CL draft as PDF: http://cvberry.com/tech_writings/notes/common_lisp_standard_draft.html
2017-04-28T07:52:01Z razzy: phoe: i am aware of the chalenge. I would like to have portable lisp dev. enviroment.. I need at least portable lisp application
2017-04-28T07:52:26Z phoe: jackdaniel: which dpANS is this?
2017-04-28T07:52:39Z phoe: razzy: portable lisp application? this is achievable
2017-04-28T07:52:53Z razzy: phoe: easily?
2017-04-28T07:53:03Z phoe: yes - just download a binary for SBCL or CCL
2017-04-28T07:53:19Z phoe: they do not have any weird dependencies and should run on any sane modern Linux box
2017-04-28T07:53:25Z jackdaniel: it's all on the website, Currell Berry made this
2017-04-28T07:54:02Z razzy: phoe: I did not evet try :]
2017-04-28T07:54:08Z razzy: *even
2017-04-28T07:55:37Z mazoe: Morning all
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2017-04-28T07:56:46Z jackdaniel: hey o/
2017-04-28T07:57:18Z phoe: jackdaniel: very nice, thanks
2017-04-28T07:57:24Z phoe: mazoe: hey
2017-04-28T07:57:30Z phoe: razzy: geez, then try it!
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2017-04-28T10:18:00Z ZabaQ: Is there any way to debug compiler marcros via SLIME (ie see what they are macro-expanding into?)
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2017-04-28T10:25:15Z phoe: ZabaQ: You can call COMPILER-MACRO-FUNCTION.
2017-04-28T10:25:27Z phoe: But I don't think slime-macrostep has integration for that.
2017-04-28T10:27:12Z phoe: Hm.
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2017-04-28T10:27:44Z phoe: It would be trivial to add it to Slime though, since it's more or less already what macrostep already does with usual macros.
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2017-04-28T11:06:26Z scymtym: afaik, slime-macrostep already supports compiler-macros
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2017-04-28T11:13:16Z phoe: oh!
2017-04-28T11:13:21Z phoe: in this case, ZabaQ - check it out.
2017-04-28T11:13:52Z ZabaQ: :-)
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2017-04-28T13:07:12Z drmeister: Hello
2017-04-28T13:07:43Z drmeister: Slime does have functions for compiler-macro-function and macrostep.
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2017-04-28T13:08:41Z drmeister: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank/backend.lisp#L721
2017-04-28T13:08:54Z drmeister: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/master/swank/backend.lisp#L777
2017-04-28T13:09:24Z drmeister: Whoops - I should read further.   It's just that I was just mucking about in slime-macrostep
2017-04-28T13:10:59Z drmeister: razzy: have you looked at Docker as a way of creating a portable lisp environment?
2017-04-28T13:11:38Z drmeister: I use it to ship Cando, a Common Lisp application that I'm developing for molecular design.  It runs on Windows/Linux and OS X  within Docker.
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2017-04-28T13:12:45Z drmeister: I'm using cl-jupyter to create a server that communicates with any browser to provide the UI
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2017-04-28T13:35:27Z razzy: drmeister: yes, but only for 15 minutes.
2017-04-28T13:36:18Z drmeister: Ah - after 16 minutes you will realize that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
2017-04-28T13:36:41Z drmeister: :-)
2017-04-28T13:37:18Z drmeister: And soon you will be searching the internet for instructions on how to clean old Docker images out of your system.
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2017-04-28T14:13:39Z razzy: drmeister: are you by any chance Christian ?
2017-04-28T14:13:57Z drmeister: Christian Schafmeister - yes.
2017-04-28T14:14:01Z razzy: I admire your work :]
2017-04-28T14:14:09Z drmeister: Thank you.
2017-04-28T14:14:49Z razzy: I was deeply impressed by your nanotechnology :]
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2017-04-28T14:16:20Z flip214: I expected some kind of "at your service" ... but perhaps I have just seen Hobbit too recently.
2017-04-28T14:17:13Z razzy: I should expect great people on #lisp
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2017-04-28T14:22:36Z razzy: drmeister: I am ok, if I can run my lisp application on multiple linux servers. pure SBCL compiller should do the trick. I do not see advantage of docker
2017-04-28T14:23:03Z phoe: razzy: it helps when you need to deploy more than just a Lisp image
2017-04-28T14:23:19Z drmeister: No problem.  I've got a more complex dependency tree.  Docker saved my life (metaphorically).
2017-04-28T14:23:22Z phoe: especially when your Lisp compiler is... non-standard
2017-04-28T14:24:00Z razzy: drmeister: can I have personal PM question?
2017-04-28T14:24:15Z drmeister: Sure
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2017-04-28T14:24:51Z phoe: (and hell if drmeister has anything that could be considered standard in what he's doing and how he's doing it)
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2017-04-28T14:29:15Z KZiemian: Hello
2017-04-28T14:29:25Z jackdaniel: cześć
2017-04-28T14:29:32Z jackdaniel: :-)
2017-04-28T14:29:42Z KZiemian: I try find in HyperSpec descripton of ,@ operator in macros
2017-04-28T14:29:52Z phoe: gimme a moment
2017-04-28T14:29:56Z KZiemian: jackdaniel: Cześć:)
2017-04-28T14:29:59Z beach: KZiemian: It has nothing to do with macros.
2017-04-28T14:30:04Z phoe: clhs 2.4.6
2017-04-28T14:30:04Z specbot: Backquote: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_df.htm
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2017-04-28T14:30:06Z phoe: KZiemian: ^
2017-04-28T14:30:49Z KZiemian: beach: thanku you for information, I only see it used in macros
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2017-04-28T14:31:17Z jackdaniel: KZiemian: because it is very useful there, but it is just unsplice operator
2017-04-28T14:31:18Z Grue``: you haven't seen some of my code then...
2017-04-28T14:31:21Z phoe: KZiemian: it has uses in a few other places, but I think it's correct to say it's mainly used in macros
2017-04-28T14:31:32Z jackdaniel: backquote constructs list where you can unquote things, what is useful in templates
2017-04-28T14:31:41Z phoe: you can effectively construct anonymous functions with it for example
2017-04-28T14:31:52Z jackdaniel: what?
2017-04-28T14:31:59Z KZiemian: phoe: thank you, I try googling but connot find right keywords
2017-04-28T14:32:06Z phoe: jackdaniel: (compile nil `(lambda (...) ... ,@(...) ...))
2017-04-28T14:32:26Z phoe: I actually saw this trick in some real code
2017-04-28T14:32:27Z Grue``: here's a fresh one (apply 'make-instance `(,@args :number-text ,number))
2017-04-28T14:33:01Z Grue``: I mean, you could write append but backquote is cooler
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2017-04-28T14:39:34Z KZiemian: Did I understand it correctly that ,@((1 2 3)) have a special meaning? Its ,,unpack'' list rather evaluating this form to get a list?
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2017-04-28T14:41:40Z phoe: KZiemian: ,@ is just like , with one exception
2017-04-28T14:41:55Z phoe: the effect is "spliced" into place
2017-04-28T14:41:56Z Grue``: ,@ has to be within a backquote form. it is processed by reader, no evaluation happens during that stage. later it might get evaluated or not depending on context
2017-04-28T14:43:26Z phoe: `(1 2 3 4 ,(list 5 6) 7 8 9) ;=> (1 2 3 4 (5 6) 7 8 9)
2017-04-28T14:43:40Z phoe: `(1 2 3 4 ,@(list 5 6) 7 8 9) ;=> (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9)
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2017-04-28T14:47:17Z Grue``: `(1 ,@2) => (1 . 2) ;; wow
2017-04-28T14:48:33Z KZiemian: Grue``: now I more confused. What happend?
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2017-04-28T14:50:14Z Grue``: that wasn't supposed to be non-confusing. just use it to splice lists into a backquote form
2017-04-28T14:51:01Z KZiemian: I confused by one thing. If I call in backquote ,@body and body ;=> (1 2 3) it will give 1 2 3
2017-04-28T14:51:22Z beach: KZiemian: Not quite.
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2017-04-28T14:51:35Z beach: KZiemian: They are not multiple values.
2017-04-28T14:51:49Z KZiemian: But if I have ,@(rest body) and body ;=> (1 2 3) I will get 2 3
2017-04-28T14:52:01Z KZiemian: beach: Yes it is oversimplification
2017-04-28T14:52:11Z KZiemian: beach: I can't find right words
2017-04-28T14:52:16Z beach: KZiemian: You cant have ,@ by itself.  It must be inside a backquote.
2017-04-28T14:52:48Z KZiemian: beach: I learn that lesson yesterday or today
2017-04-28T14:53:14Z beach: KZiemian: Something like `(1 ,@form) can be thought of as (cons 1 form)
2017-04-28T14:53:53Z beach: KZiemian: So if FORM returns a list, say (2 3) then the resulting expression is the list 1 2 3.
2017-04-28T14:54:02Z beach: Er, (1 2 3)
2017-04-28T14:54:36Z beach: KZiemian: But it generalizes.  If FORM returns an atom, say 2, then you have the result of (cons 1 2) which is the dotted pair (1 . 2).
2017-04-28T14:55:14Z KZiemian: beach: Thank, that with (cons 1 2) start getting sens
2017-04-28T14:55:39Z beach: KZiemian: That is why `(1 ,@2) is read as (1 . 2).
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2017-04-28T14:56:00Z KZiemian: beach: The root problem which I still don't get, is like that. In macros I undestand how unpack body into macro by ,@body
2017-04-28T14:56:22Z KZiemian: beach: But I find macro when you habe ,@(loop ...)
2017-04-28T14:56:34Z KZiemian: *have
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2017-04-28T14:57:14Z beach: KZiemian: It is no different.  The LOOP form is evaluated as usual, and in this case very likely returns a list of items.
2017-04-28T14:57:34Z TMA: KZiemian: it is the same thing -- except in the first case you splice the value of a variable, in the second the value of the loop construct
2017-04-28T14:57:35Z KZiemian: beach: It seems to me that ,@body is just spliced, when ,@(loop ...) is first evaluated and then spliced
2017-04-28T14:57:38Z beach: KZiemian: The items of that list are then `spliced' into the surrounding backquote thing
2017-04-28T14:57:57Z TMA: KZiemian: body is evaluated first too
2017-04-28T14:57:57Z beach: KZiemian: No, BODY is a form (a variable) that is evaluated first.
2017-04-28T14:58:23Z KZiemian: TMA, beach: you are right, body as variable is evaluated
2017-04-28T14:58:41Z KZiemian: TMA, beach: I miss that step, so was confused
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2017-04-28T14:59:40Z KZiemian: TMA, beach: thank for the help, as you see I try to get my head over macros evalutions
2017-04-28T14:59:53Z beach: KZiemian: Good luck.
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2017-04-28T15:44:50Z nyef: minion: Advice on heuristic?
2017-04-28T15:44:51Z minion: #11953: Of course, this is a heuristic, which is a fancy way of saying that it doesn't work.
2017-04-28T15:45:16Z beach: Heh.
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2017-04-28T15:47:55Z nyef: Gives a new perspective on the HAL 9000, doesn't it? (-:
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2017-04-28T16:39:06Z zeldangit_: could someone help explain this weirdness in my repl? https://gist.github.com/zeldangit/cf2382893123b9a1cffb0ef6ab62cd9a
2017-04-28T16:41:01Z beach: zeldangit_: Hash tables use EQL by default.
2017-04-28T16:41:10Z beach: You are using strings as keys, so that won't work.
2017-04-28T16:41:25Z beach: clhs make-hash-table
2017-04-28T16:41:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
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2017-04-28T16:41:44Z beach: zeldangit_: Try (make-hash-table :test #'equal)
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2017-04-28T16:46:26Z zeldangit_: beach: thank you!
2017-04-28T16:46:35Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-04-28T16:49:19Z zeldangit_: beach: since it's not the default, what do people usually use as keys? numbers?
2017-04-28T16:50:27Z Bike: strings as keys is fine, you just have to specify the test
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2017-04-28T17:00:41Z shaftoe: #'string=
2017-04-28T17:03:56Z phoe: shaftoe: #'string= does not work with hash tables in standard CL
2017-04-28T17:04:08Z phoe: it's #'EQ #'EQL #'EQUAL #'EQUALP
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2017-04-28T17:06:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like using symbols as keys
2017-04-28T17:06:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: or keywords.
2017-04-28T17:06:22Z shaftoe: huh
2017-04-28T17:06:30Z shaftoe: good to know
2017-04-28T17:06:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, you don't want to create symbols indiscriminately on the basis of user input
2017-04-28T17:07:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: For internal things, though, like registering callbacks, a symbol -> data hash-table is great
2017-04-28T17:08:48Z phoe: ^
2017-04-28T17:08:53Z phoe: you don't want to intern everything the user inputs
2017-04-28T17:09:03Z phoe: or at least, you want to intern it in a *controlled* way
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2017-04-28T17:11:52Z cods: Hi everyone. Does someone know the state of cl-vectors? I no longer use Common Lisp, and I don't really know if someone is maintaining it (I'm the original author. Some time ago, I changed the license, put the code on github.. then it was supposed to be forked somewhere else IIRC)
2017-04-28T17:12:13Z cods: I got recently two bugs reports, but I don't know if my repo is still the official one.
2017-04-28T17:12:52Z cods: I've not followed the package system actually in place in Common Lisp (many year have passed..)
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2017-04-28T17:13:21Z shaftoe: the coder who came in from the cold
2017-04-28T17:13:29Z Bike: well, mostly we use quicklisp
2017-04-28T17:13:38Z Bike: and if i'm not mistaken quicklisp pulls from https://github.com/fjolliton/cl-vectors.git
2017-04-28T17:14:37Z LiamH: There is a way to give up a system for adoption, I forgot what that is called.
2017-04-28T17:14:43Z cods: hmm ok, so no one took it over. But maybe this is not used much nowadays.
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2017-04-28T17:22:13Z prole: I have a little question: What is the best way to do recursion? Using labels, &optional or another initiative function? I tend to use &optional, since labels is pretty heavy... I don't know what's the good method. Thanks.
2017-04-28T17:22:30Z phoe: prole: in CL?
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2017-04-28T17:22:46Z phoe: the tl;dr version is: don't, unless you must
2017-04-28T17:23:02Z prole: o
2017-04-28T17:23:06Z prole: ok**, thanks
2017-04-28T17:23:18Z phoe: because of lack of mandatory TCO in CL standard
2017-04-28T17:23:30Z phoe: Schemes often recurse where Lisp iterates
2017-04-28T17:24:18Z phoe: also, iterative facilities in CL are pretty damn powerful
2017-04-28T17:24:19Z prole: I'm only using tail recursion, and I think that SBCL support it
2017-04-28T17:24:35Z Bike: it does.
2017-04-28T17:25:22Z Bike: cods: xach puts out download statistics sometimes. in 2011 cl-vectors ranked just under local-time, but i didn't see it on a 2015 list
2017-04-28T17:25:46Z phoe: so it might be fun to use LOOP or its younger brothers ITERATE or FOR
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2017-04-28T17:33:46Z phoe: What is the recommended way of reading CSV data in Lisp? (Tab-separated, to be precise.)
2017-04-28T17:33:59Z Bike: i think fare has a library for it? fare-csv
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2017-04-28T17:37:04Z nyef: Mmm. fare-csv is one of the better options.
2017-04-28T17:37:29Z nyef: Note that CSV is a text format, so you'll have to specify character encoding separately.
2017-04-28T17:38:18Z cods: I forgot too much about Common Lisp. fare has put a PR on cl-vectors, but I'm not sure I understand it: aren't you supposed to put the uiop dependency somewhere? -> https://github.com/fjolliton/cl-vectors/pull/4/commits
2017-04-28T17:38:43Z Bike: uiop is part of asdf i think
2017-04-28T17:39:13Z Bike: or maybe the other way around
2017-04-28T17:39:34Z Bike: "UIOP is the portability layer of ASDF." ok right.
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2017-04-28T17:40:29Z cods: hmm ok. Thanks :)
2017-04-28T17:40:53Z phoe: so it's an ASDF dependency.
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2017-04-28T17:47:53Z Posterdati: hi
2017-04-28T17:48:08Z Posterdati: froggey: hi
2017-04-28T17:48:25Z Posterdati: froggey: I'd like to ask you about mezzano on arm...
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2017-04-28T17:49:46Z nyef: Posterdati: Shouldn't that be a question for #mezzano ?
2017-04-28T17:50:02Z Posterdati: sure
2017-04-28T17:50:53Z phoe: From DRAKMA, I get a vector of bytes from a request. How can I force Drakma to return a string?
2017-04-28T17:51:00Z phoe: The response is plain ASCII text.
2017-04-28T17:51:09Z phoe: I just want to get a string, not a vector of bytes.
2017-04-28T17:51:44Z dlowe: phoe: you add the mime type of the response to a variable
2017-04-28T17:52:42Z phoe: dlowe: the server is stupid enough *not* to give me a mimetype on the request.
2017-04-28T17:54:09Z dlowe: it looks like I usually use babel or flexistreams, usually.
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2017-04-28T17:54:44Z dlowe: ah, drakma:*text-content_types*
2017-04-28T17:54:47Z dlowe: doesn't help you, though
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2017-04-28T17:55:07Z phoe: haha
2017-04-28T17:55:10Z phoe: flex it is, then.
2017-04-28T17:55:32Z dlowe: it looks like drakma uses flexi-streams under the hood, anyway
2017-04-28T17:55:42Z phoe: How can I chop N first lines from a string?
2017-04-28T17:55:57Z phoe: Oh wait
2017-04-28T17:56:03Z phoe: I'll just split-string it by #\Newline
2017-04-28T17:56:06Z dlowe: (cl-ppcre:split "$" str :limit 11)
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2017-04-28T17:56:58Z phoe: dlowe: split-sequence
2017-04-28T17:57:08Z dlowe: if you must
2017-04-28T17:57:12Z phoe: if I must?
2017-04-28T17:57:39Z dlowe: I usually use ppcre in anything I do with munging text, so split-sequence is just an unnecessary dependency for me
2017-04-28T17:57:52Z phoe: I already have it loaded in my setup, so.
2017-04-28T17:57:58Z phoe: It's a dependency for something else.
2017-04-28T17:58:59Z dlowe: also, ppcre will optionally generate displaced arrays instead of allocating new strings
2017-04-28T17:59:07Z dlowe: which I don't believe is in split-sequence
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2017-04-28T18:02:00Z phoe: this thing is small enough for me to not care
2017-04-28T18:02:14Z phoe: it's a few kBs of text
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2017-04-28T18:20:38Z pipping: cods: the entanglement of asdf and uiop is a controversial topic. currently, if you require the former, you get the latter, too. and requiring the latter on its own might not work
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2017-04-28T18:22:54Z rpg: pipping: I have always thought it would be right for me to add UIOP as a dependency to relevant systems, but I'm not at all sure that will work well.
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2017-04-28T18:37:01Z cods: pipping: ok, good to know.
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2017-04-28T18:38:25Z rpg: You get UIOP when you require ASDF because ASDF requires UIOP for interaction with filesystem, etc. etc.
2017-04-28T18:39:01Z rpg: There are other things, but notably the pathnames part of the spec is loose enough that we need a compatibility layer....
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2017-04-28T18:43:02Z rpg wishes someday there'd be a way to deal with symlinks well from CL.
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2017-04-28T18:55:22Z otjura: are #'s in defpackage just convention or have they some purpose? hyperspec claims just string would do
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2017-04-28T18:56:23Z jackdaniel: otjura: you mean #:symbol
2017-04-28T18:56:27Z jackdaniel: right?
2017-04-28T18:56:27Z otjura: jackdaniel:
2017-04-28T18:56:29Z otjura: yes
2017-04-28T18:57:16Z jackdaniel: string would do, but instead of having "A-LOT-OF-CAPS" many people prefere to have symbols
2017-04-28T18:57:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: A function would be #''s
2017-04-28T18:57:24Z jackdaniel: if you'd put raw symbol, it would get internet in upper package
2017-04-28T18:57:28Z jackdaniel: interned°
2017-04-28T18:57:45Z jackdaniel: #:symbol gives you that without interning it
2017-04-28T18:58:16Z rpg: otjura: So it's less cumbersome than "A LOT OF CAPS AND QUOTES", but it doesn't clutter up symbol tables.
2017-04-28T18:58:45Z sukaeto: razzy: if all your Linux servers are identical and you only run one app on them (or all the apps you run use the same versions for everything), then yeah, you can get away without docker
2017-04-28T18:58:49Z jackdaniel: by "upper" package I mean a package, in which defpackage is evaluated
2017-04-28T18:58:55Z rpg: Also, if there's any danger of your code being used with Allegro's "modern" (case-sensitive) lisp mode, it's much happier than the capitalized strings.
2017-04-28T18:58:58Z jackdaniel: s/eveluated/executed/
2017-04-28T18:59:25Z sukaeto: razzy: the nice thing about docker is that it lets you create little virtual environments.  You can have many different applications running on the same system, all with their own dependencies, and they don't need to know anything about one another
2017-04-28T18:59:31Z rpg: (in the "modern" mode symbols default to being lower-cased instead of upper)
2017-04-28T19:00:18Z otjura: but it's not aesthetic :( do the benefit of using #: instead of just : make it worth having my code look stuffy?
2017-04-28T19:01:25Z sukaeto: it also helps with managing multiple workers for the same application.  It's possible I'm doing it wrong, but from what I know LISP doesn't have anything like uwsgi or the like.  What I did was just set up an nginx instance to round robin proxy to a number of identical worker containers running clack+fastcgi.  They're all listening on the same port in their respective containers, no need to find available ports
2017-04-28T19:01:26Z sukaeto: and manage conflicts.
2017-04-28T19:02:57Z rpg: otjura: using just : will put a bunch of garbage into the keyword package which might, for example, seriously degrade the usefulness of whatever completion facilities you're using.
2017-04-28T19:03:16Z otjura: okay, thanks. I'll stick to using crisscrosses then
2017-04-28T19:03:23Z phoe: I have a bunch of dates formatted like "Sep 1, 2012" - is there any kind of library that will allow me to simply parse this?
2017-04-28T19:03:42Z otjura: btw did you know Google has CL style guide https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2017-04-28T19:03:53Z pipping: rpg: oh, hey :)
2017-04-28T19:04:08Z sukaeto: (also, why did I feel the need to capitalize "LISP".  What year is this? 1980?)
2017-04-28T19:05:15Z pipping: rpg: symbolic links, hm? I'm afraid that's never going to happen. https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/asdf/asdf/merge_requests/27 is in my top 10 of depressing URLs
2017-04-28T19:05:27Z axion: Hello all. I came across an interesting problem I couldn't find the answer to. It is described in the comment here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345378
2017-04-28T19:05:36Z axion: Any help would be appreciated
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2017-04-28T19:06:33Z pipping looks at sbcl and https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1114689
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2017-04-28T19:06:50Z rpg: pipping: Right.  There would have to be a major push by all the implementations to deal with symlinks.  I suppose at some point one could press on with only those who support them.
2017-04-28T19:07:00Z Bike: axion: try (values boolean &optional)
2017-04-28T19:07:25Z Bike: axion: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Implementation-Limitations
2017-04-28T19:07:29Z axion: Hmm
2017-04-28T19:07:45Z rpg: pipping: Hm. No sign that anyone's interested in that patch. :-(
2017-04-28T19:07:47Z Bike: in other implementations they'll have the same meaning, probably
2017-04-28T19:08:53Z pipping: rpg: if sbcl was among those with proper support that might be feasible.
2017-04-28T19:08:57Z rpg: phoe: You could try local-time, but TBH I don't know what are the limitations of PARSE-TIMESTRING.
2017-04-28T19:10:02Z pipping: currently, the list looks like this: we could support ccl, allegro cl, mkcl, ecl, and cmucl. but not sbcl (although there's the aforementioned patch), abcl, clisp, or lispworks.
2017-04-28T19:10:54Z rpg: pipping: I bet one could get ABCL to support with enough momentum.  I despair of clisp.
2017-04-28T19:11:03Z Bike: axion: also, declaim won't be as effective as a non-top-level-form like this.
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2017-04-28T19:12:58Z axion: That's unfortunate, because i have a macro to generate the defun with type annotations
2017-04-28T19:13:46Z axion: I question whether it isn't a top level form in that context. The CLHS is a bit ambiguous here
2017-04-28T19:13:58Z Bike: subforms of let are not top level forms.
2017-04-28T19:14:22Z Bike: clhs 3.2.3.1
2017-04-28T19:14:23Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-04-28T19:14:29Z Bike: is difficult to read, but it's pretty explicit.
2017-04-28T19:15:26Z Bike: it's a closure, anyway, there will probably be a few optimizations missed
2017-04-28T19:15:45Z axion: I see
2017-04-28T19:16:23Z axion: Hmm, I wonder what I should do. I'm trying to squeeze the processor dry here, but I need a memoized variable
2017-04-28T19:16:34Z axion: Can probably just use a special with a little macro
2017-04-28T19:16:59Z Bike: they might not be important optimizations.
2017-04-28T19:17:08Z axion: They are according to my tests
2017-04-28T19:17:38Z Bike: alright then.
2017-04-28T19:17:47Z axion: This is called hundreds of times per second, and allocating that storage everytime incurs for more than half of the speed
2017-04-28T19:18:25Z Bike: there's a trick with load time value too
2017-04-28T19:18:28Z axion: Thanks for your help though.
2017-04-28T19:18:31Z axion: Oh?
2017-04-28T19:19:15Z Bike: i think it was... http://random-state.xach.com/log/3507968044.html
2017-04-28T19:19:53Z Bike: well, don't need to bother with the compiler macros for a binding
2017-04-28T19:20:25Z Bike: just something like (let ((cell (load-time-value (cons nil nil)))) (if (car cell) (cdr cell) (setf (car cell) t (cdr cell) (long-computation)))
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2017-04-28T19:21:31Z axion: hmm
2017-04-28T19:24:15Z axion: Thanks for all of your help. I got some ideas now at least. I was getting nowhere for a while :/
2017-04-28T19:24:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I worked with someone here (3b, loke, I forget exactly who ?) on some optimization of cl-csv a while ago, I remember that at the time that I thought it was the sanest csv library
2017-04-28T19:25:25Z scymtym: phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/345379
2017-04-28T19:26:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: for date parsing, I've also found chronicity useful
2017-04-28T19:26:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although it doesn't have proper timezone support, it does support parsing quite a variety of input formats
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2017-04-28T20:18:57Z phoe: scymtym: woah
2017-04-28T20:19:16Z phoe: thanks!
2017-04-28T20:19:22Z phoe: how is it licensed? :P
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2017-04-28T20:28:08Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I see - I did my thing with fare-csv, it worked.
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2017-04-28T20:28:34Z pipping: rpg: I brought up the issue in #abcl before. I believe the response was "we're only interested in cross-platform solutions. symlinks on windows are crazy, hence symlinks are crazy, hence we can't do symlinks"
2017-04-28T20:29:07Z pipping: I see their point, too; but of course it's rather unsatisfatory.
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2017-04-28T20:31:02Z kung_: symlinks exist on newer windows versions tho
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2017-04-28T20:50:23Z phoe: scymtym: does esrap:parse return fresh lists that can be modified?
2017-04-28T20:50:34Z ironChicken: is there an equivalent tool for cl to cabal for haskell, npm for node
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2017-04-28T20:50:56Z phoe: ironChicken: quicklisp
2017-04-28T20:51:05Z phoe: https://www.quicklisp.org/
2017-04-28T20:51:08Z ironChicken: yes, i know quicklisp
2017-04-28T20:51:32Z ironChicken: but i'm looking for something that also manages build and tests
2017-04-28T20:51:43Z phoe: ASDF
2017-04-28T20:51:51Z phoe: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/
2017-04-28T20:52:03Z burtons: is roswell for that?
2017-04-28T20:52:17Z phoe: roswell is an implementation manager AFAIK
2017-04-28T20:52:44Z ironChicken: i want to put a .asd and a package.lisp in a directory and issue some command to have it pull in all the dependencies in, say, a vendor/ directory. then another command to compile all the components
2017-04-28T20:52:59Z phoe: ironChicken: you can do it with ASDF
2017-04-28T20:53:00Z ironChicken: maybe there are some asdf commands that i haven't discovered yet
2017-04-28T20:53:06Z ironChicken: ok, yes, i'll look
2017-04-28T20:53:15Z phoe: pulling in all the dependencies is more or less a Quicklisp call
2017-04-28T20:53:26Z phoe: since QL will also download dependencies if they are missing, not just load them
2017-04-28T20:53:51Z phoe: well, ql:quickload will also compile everything, so I guess QL is the proper frontend for that
2017-04-28T20:53:52Z ironChicken: can quicklisp manage dependencies separately for separate projects?
2017-04-28T20:54:02Z phoe: what do you mean, separately for separate projects?
2017-04-28T20:54:30Z phoe: if system A uses X and Y and system B uses Y and Z, then Quicklisp will download X, Y and Z and keep them for later use
2017-04-28T20:54:45Z phoe: it's smart compared to npm, it only pulls dependencies once
2017-04-28T20:54:52Z phoe: you don't end up with two copies of Y, for instance
2017-04-28T20:54:52Z ironChicken: so my my-project, i depend on hunchentoot and cl-who, and quicklisp downloads and compiles them into some subdirectory of my project, not in some user or system-wide directory
2017-04-28T20:55:07Z phoe: ironChicken: why do you need it?
2017-04-28T20:55:18Z phoe: are you building a binary/wanting to deploy?
2017-04-28T20:55:32Z ironChicken: phoe: having more than one copy is sometimes desirable, e.g. to have versions which you know work for your project
2017-04-28T20:55:54Z ironChicken: it's about isolating the dependencies
2017-04-28T20:56:26Z ironChicken: npm does this on purpose, i don't think it's necessarily less smart
2017-04-28T20:56:59Z phoe: less smart when it comes to downloading the same version over and over
2017-04-28T20:57:05Z ironChicken: dito cabal sandboxes
2017-04-28T20:57:21Z phoe: I know that in QL you can have several versions of a given dist
2017-04-28T20:57:29Z phoe: I just don't know how to load a particular one
2017-04-28T20:57:31Z phoe: XachX: halp
2017-04-28T20:58:45Z ironChicken: i noticed that in asdf you can depend on a specific version of a library
2017-04-28T20:59:09Z ironChicken: (still not quite sure of terminology re "library", "dist", "package")
2017-04-28T20:59:25Z phoe: package is a collection of symbols
2017-04-28T20:59:32Z phoe: dist is a QL term
2017-04-28T20:59:33Z ironChicken: knew that one :-)
2017-04-28T20:59:50Z phoe: system is an ASDF term
2017-04-28T21:01:08Z ironChicken: oh yes, so the asdf thing i noticed (:depends-on (:version :foo)) is declaring a dependency on a specific version of "system", right?
2017-04-28T21:02:43Z ironChicken: err, for correctness, that should be: :depends-on ((:version :foo "0.0.1"))
2017-04-28T21:03:39Z phoe: I shamelessly admit that I don't know
2017-04-28T21:03:43Z phoe: I never used that part of ASDF
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2017-04-28T21:05:41Z axion: ironChicken: local-projects directory is for overriding what quicklisp will pull in
2017-04-28T21:06:18Z ironChicken: axion: ok yes, that sounds familiar
2017-04-28T21:06:19Z axion: placing anything in there (or anywhere else in your asdf system registry) will override what is loaded into your image with quick-lisp
2017-04-28T21:06:29Z axion: err quicklisp
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2017-04-28T21:07:08Z axion: you cannot have CL automatically download systems to a subdirectory of your project though. the tools are smart enough to only download things once, and only compile them when needed
2017-04-28T21:08:12Z ironChicken: ok, i think i'm beginning to understand
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2017-04-28T21:11:08Z ironChicken: but at the moment, my defpackage declares some :use packages which are also declared as :depends-on in my .asd. but if i evaluate my defpackage, it complains about any of the :use packages which i have not previously ql:quickload'ed
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2017-04-28T21:12:04Z ironChicken: with apologies for my mixing up of package/system/etc. again :-(
2017-04-28T21:12:34Z phoe: oh
2017-04-28T21:12:36Z phoe: it's normal
2017-04-28T21:12:41Z phoe: DEFPACKAGE wants to load packages
2017-04-28T21:12:53Z phoe: s/load/use/
2017-04-28T21:12:59Z phoe: but it cannot use packages if they do not exist
2017-04-28T21:13:06Z phoe: because they were not loaded by ASDF
2017-04-28T21:13:18Z phoe: I solve that by (ql:quickload :my-package)
2017-04-28T21:13:41Z axion: ironChicken: A good explanation is http://weitz.de/packages.html
2017-04-28T21:13:46Z phoe: which pulls any dependencies and tells ASDF to compile and load them all
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2017-04-28T21:13:57Z phoe: and then I can freely evaluate defpackage, because the respective packages were created in the Lisp image
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2017-04-28T21:17:42Z ironChicken: ah cool, so having evaluated my asdf:defsystem, i can ql:quickload :my-system
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2017-04-28T21:18:53Z axion: You do not need to evaluate it
2017-04-28T21:19:13Z ironChicken: but then how does quicklisp know about it?
2017-04-28T21:19:15Z axion: ql:quickload will search for systems located in one of the directories registered to it
2017-04-28T21:19:31Z axion: actually asdf does this, but ql makes it nice
2017-04-28T21:19:48Z ironChicken: but my .asd file is in some random directory
2017-04-28T21:19:58Z axion: Then modify your asdf registry settings
2017-04-28T21:20:08Z axion: Which directory do you use for your lisp code?
2017-04-28T21:20:33Z ironChicken: well, in this case ~/code/{project-name}
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2017-04-28T21:21:06Z axion: in ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/source-registry.conf add: (:tree (:home "code/"))
2017-04-28T21:21:13Z axion: creating the direcories/file if they don't exist
2017-04-28T21:21:24Z pipping: kung_: windows has symlinks but their point was that windows had three different types of symlinks in the past and they found it difficult to support all of them
2017-04-28T21:21:26Z axion: Although I suggest creating a sub-directory specific to lisp code
2017-04-28T21:21:59Z kung_: pipping, ah ok
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2017-04-28T21:24:20Z ironChicken: axion: regarding not *needing* to evaluate the asdf:defsystem, does evaluating it actually make the system known to quicklisp, even if the .asd file is not in one the paths in the asdf registry?
2017-04-28T21:25:58Z axion: ironChicken: I'm not sure. That is not very standard usage
2017-04-28T21:26:25Z phoe: ironChicken: you might end up with a system that is defined but that has no path information
2017-04-28T21:26:36Z phoe: you could theoretically paste the same thing in REPL
2017-04-28T21:26:44Z phoe: and then Lisp still has no idea where to look for that system's files
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2017-04-28T21:27:33Z axion: ironChicken: and ~/quicklisp/local-projects is just an additional registry entry added by quicklisp that you may use in the same fashion
2017-04-28T21:27:42Z ironChicken: ok, so all the :components are going to be relative to some base directory, and if that base directory is undefined, then, well, stuff...
2017-04-28T21:27:58Z axion: I typically like to have my own directory, and use local-projects for pulling in stable versions of others' libraries
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2017-04-28T21:28:18Z scymtym: phoe: esrap and parser.common-rules are MIT-licensed; returned lists are fresh
2017-04-28T21:30:08Z phoe: scymtym: thank you
2017-04-28T21:30:18Z phoe: but, uh
2017-04-28T21:30:24Z phoe: I wanted to ask for the license of that date parser
2017-04-28T21:32:01Z scymtym: phoe: consider it public domain
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2017-04-28T21:33:18Z phoe: scymtym: thanks
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2017-04-28T22:27:17Z axion: When would one using auxillary arguments in place of LET?
2017-04-28T22:27:21Z axion: use*
2017-04-28T22:28:25Z |3b|: pretty much never in 'modern' style from what i've seen
2017-04-28T22:28:31Z Grue`: when you want to avoid extra indentation
2017-04-28T22:28:48Z axion: Ha, ok
2017-04-28T22:29:11Z |3b|: (still used in struct constructors, because you can't use a LET)
2017-04-28T22:29:16Z pjb: axion: it would be useful in macros, since that would allow the macro to define local variables around the body, without having to parse the body for declarations and docstrings.
2017-04-28T22:29:33Z pjb: But it human source code, it's preferable to use let.
2017-04-28T22:29:47Z axion: I see, ok thanks.
2017-04-28T22:34:07Z Grue`: A let with 1 variable is 4 more parens + 1 more identation level than an equivalent &aux
2017-04-28T22:34:26Z Grue`: truly a waste
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2017-04-28T22:56:08Z msmith: hi all. Any one know if one can use an absolute path for a file component in asdf?
2017-04-28T22:58:11Z msmith: If not, is there a way to use a library as part of a code snippet in asdf?  Meaning, if I can't use absolute paths, I would need to use ppcre to do some regex on some pathnames, but of course that won't work if ppcre is not loaded first.
2017-04-28T22:59:20Z |3b|: :SYSTEM-DEPENDS-ON to use library in system definition
2017-04-28T23:01:14Z |3b|: from the asdf docs it sounds like absolute paths are OK though
2017-04-28T23:02:00Z msmith: |3b| if I try them with :file It says it expected relative paths
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2017-04-28T23:09:41Z |3b|: hmm, maybe not then :/
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2017-04-28T23:17:26Z |3b|: msmith: ah, maybe try actual pathname (with #p) instead of string
2017-04-28T23:17:55Z msmith: ok
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2017-04-28T23:32:49Z msmith: |3b| did you try it like this? :components ((:file #p"my/path/here"))
2017-04-28T23:33:12Z |3b|: (:file "name" :pathname #p"/...")
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2017-04-28T23:35:42Z akkad_: asdf huh?
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2017-04-28T23:41:59Z msmith: |3b|: it's weird, I'm getting the value nil is not of type (or (vector character (vector nil) base-string pathname stream)
2017-04-28T23:42:10Z msmith: I know that path is correct
2017-04-28T23:42:22Z msmith: It worked for you?
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2017-04-28T23:42:49Z |3b| thinks so, but didn't test very thoroughly
2017-04-28T23:43:21Z |3b|: hmm, maybe it didn't
2017-04-28T23:43:27Z |3b| wonders what i was doing before
2017-04-28T23:43:57Z |3b|: ah, apparently edited test since last time i tried it
2017-04-28T23:44:45Z msmith: |3b| got it to work
2017-04-28T23:45:20Z msmith: I had to put use full path in with the pathname key
2017-04-28T23:45:25Z msmith: including the file name
2017-04-28T23:45:59Z msmith: so it was (:file myfile.lisp :pathname #p"/home/project/myfile.lisp")
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2017-04-29T00:06:11Z msmith: another problem.  I have the base path of my project set as a global variable in a config file conf.lisp.  I want to be able to reference that variable in the system definition.  I'm trying to do it now in a module that uses :depends-on ((:file "config/conf")) but I'm getting "bad dependency"
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2017-04-29T00:17:59Z |3b|: (:module :depends-on ("config/conf") :components (...)) ?
2017-04-29T00:18:50Z |3b|: ah, you want to use it in the defsystem form itself? that probably won't work
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2017-04-29T00:19:05Z |3b|: how did you want to use it?
2017-04-29T00:19:33Z |3b| gets the impression you are trying to stretch asdf beyond what it was intended to do
2017-04-29T00:19:48Z |3b|: (or else missing some easier way to do things)
2017-04-29T00:20:20Z msmith: |3b| possibly correct on both counts
2017-04-29T00:23:09Z msmith: |3b|: I've written a script to load all of the lisp files in the subdirectories of a particular directory
2017-04-29T00:23:55Z msmith: basically to be able to create a way to add plug and play modules without having to alter my .asdf file
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2017-04-29T00:24:36Z msmith: It works for the most part, except for the whole package dependency thing
2017-04-29T00:24:59Z msmith: that is kind of the last hurdle
2017-04-29T00:25:14Z msmith: I may just define the global variables in my asd file
2017-04-29T00:25:22Z msmith: and call it a day
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2017-04-29T00:30:46Z |3b|: so which part are you stuck on?
2017-04-29T00:32:55Z |3b|: and are you trying to do the plugin loading directly from the .asd or from a separate file?
2017-04-29T00:34:45Z |3b|: if the latter, i'd just expect that file to be loaded last in the .asd file
2017-04-29T00:35:21Z msmith: |3b| I'm trying to do it in the .asd file
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2017-04-29T00:38:23Z |3b| suspects the 'correct' solution would be to extend asdf with a "load everything in this directory" option, but i'm not sure that would be any easier
2017-04-29T00:39:16Z msmith: |3b|: yeah.  I feel like I'm right on the cusp of a breakthrough though.
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2017-04-29T01:40:33Z krator44: in lisp if i want something like a struct in C (that is an associative array maps symbols to their values) how would i do that
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2017-04-29T01:41:56Z shrdlu68: krator44: plists, alists, clos objects, structures.
2017-04-29T01:41:58Z Bike: that's kind of a weird view of structs, but lisp has structs, as well as class instances. and things like hash tables and alists of course.