2017-02-01T00:00:04Z atgreen: nevermind - found it
2017-02-01T00:00:11Z atgreen: thanks.. I'll use uiop:getcwd
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2017-02-01T00:00:52Z pillton: The problem with getcwd is that it isn't "synchronised" with *default-pathname-defaults*.
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2017-02-01T00:01:36Z pillton: You can get weird errors as a result.
2017-02-01T00:02:06Z atgreen: (defmacro load-encrypted (filename)
2017-02-01T00:02:06Z atgreen:   `(load-encrypted-1 ,filename ,(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename* *default-pathname-defaults*)))
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2017-02-01T00:03:18Z pjb: What about: (defun load-encrypted (pathname) (with-decrypted-stream (decrypted pathname) (load decrypted)))
2017-02-01T00:04:14Z atgreen: pjb, how is that an improvement?
2017-02-01T00:04:20Z atgreen: just style?
2017-02-01T00:04:29Z pillton: I haven't kept up with your problem, but I would expected something like (defvar *resource-pathname* #.(or *compile-file-truename* *load-truename*)) and then (load-encrypted-1 pathname (or *resource-pathname* *default-pathname-defaults*)).
2017-02-01T00:04:31Z pjb: Now, I understand that CL doesn't provide conforming tools to produce the decrypted stream, but it can be implemented easily with the common extension Gray streams.
2017-02-01T00:05:01Z pjb: atgreen: it's an improvement, because you don't have to implement load again. Just the decryption of a stream.
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2017-02-01T00:06:42Z atgreen: but the behaviour I want is that it will first try to read the unencrypted file foo.lisp then try foo.lisp.gpg, then try foo.lisp.asc.
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2017-02-01T00:07:39Z pjb: You can test the pathname and dispatch depending on the pathname-type.
2017-02-01T00:08:00Z pillton: (find-if #'load-encrypted-1 (generate-pathnames "foo.lisp"))
2017-02-01T00:08:09Z pjb: Also, if you accept to load the whole decrypted file in memory, then you can implement with-decrypted-stream conformingly.
2017-02-01T00:08:38Z pjb: You just read and decrypt the file into a string, and use with-input-from-string.
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2017-02-01T00:10:31Z pjb: (defun load-encrypted (pathname) (if (member (pathname-type pathname) '("gpg" "asc") :test (function string-equal)) (with-input-from-string (decrypted (read-file-and-decrypt pathname)) (load decrypted)) (load pathname)))
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2017-02-01T00:15:46Z pjb: atgreen: you can implement any file selection logic you want.  The point is that you don't need to re-implement load, just decrypt your file when you want to load an encrypted file, and pass a decrypted stream to load.
2017-02-01T00:16:17Z atgreen: I think that's what my current implementation does
2017-02-01T00:16:38Z atgreen:     (flet ((decode-load (filename)
2017-02-01T00:16:38Z atgreen: 	     (let ((source (trivial-shell:shell-command
2017-02-01T00:16:38Z atgreen: 			    (concatenate 'string "gpg2 --use-agent -o - --decrypt " filename))))
2017-02-01T00:16:38Z atgreen: 	       (load (make-string-input-stream source)))))
2017-02-01T00:16:48Z pjb: Then you definititely don't need a macro or to deal with *compile-file-pathname* or *load-pathname* or truname.
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2017-02-01T00:28:19Z rumbler31: is anyone familiar with a way to get an unresponsive thread into the debugger?
2017-02-01T00:29:27Z pjb: What's its name?
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2017-02-01T00:31:13Z pillton: SBCL has (sb-thread:interrupt-thread thread #'break).
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2017-02-01T00:32:56Z pillton: That function has a nice docstring too.
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2017-02-01T00:34:53Z phoe: pillton: bordeaux-threads has #'INTERRUPT-THREAD.
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2017-02-01T00:35:04Z phoe: that is cross-platform.
2017-02-01T00:35:11Z phoe: ...and cross-implementation.
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2017-02-01T00:35:33Z pillton: Great. Thanks.
2017-02-01T00:35:55Z pillton: I don't use threads. There are better ways to waste time.
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2017-02-01T00:37:18Z _death: you can also type 'd' on the thread you want in the slime-threads buffer (which you can visit using 'C-c C-x t')
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2017-02-01T00:46:46Z rumbler31: pjb: what do you mean whats the name?
2017-02-01T00:47:21Z rumbler31: so I take it, if my implementation's version of interrupt-thread don't provide results then its just gone?
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2017-02-01T00:54:58Z phoe: http://localhost/~phoe/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-01T00:55:11Z phoe: Do you consider this current style of printed/returned values acceptable, #lisp?
2017-02-01T00:55:21Z phoe: ...oh, wait.
2017-02-01T00:55:22Z PuercoPop: A new alternative for working with SQL from lisp! https://github.com/TBRSS/cl-yesql
2017-02-01T00:56:02Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-01T00:56:13Z phoe: Insert that ancient joke about linking to localhost here.
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2017-02-01T00:58:52Z TruePika: phoe: don't worry, I accidentially link people to 192.168.0.250 sometimes
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2017-02-01T01:00:23Z Bike: phoe: why is it the same thing three times?
2017-02-01T01:00:51Z TruePika: ...I just realised that part of my code _might_ not work nicely with binaries built from ECL
2017-02-01T01:01:09Z phoe: Bike: lorem ipsum.
2017-02-01T01:01:30Z TruePika: I mean, aside from the whole part of it using ASDF's package and causing link omissions as the result of a bug
2017-02-01T01:01:39Z phoe: Meant to demonstrate the layout of the yellow/blue blocks.
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2017-02-01T01:02:02Z Bike: well the last one is different, is why i ask
2017-02-01T01:02:38Z phoe: I wanted to show multiline contents in the yellow block.
2017-02-01T01:03:00Z phoe: Well, uh, I want feedback about the blocks' layout, not the Lisp.
2017-02-01T01:04:07Z TruePika: hm, I don't think this will work as it should on other users' computers...
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2017-02-01T01:04:42Z TruePika: :defaults (merge-pathnames #P"game-info/" (asdf:system-source-directory :terraria-map-dump))
2017-02-01T01:05:41Z phoe: TruePika: leave the pathname configurable by means of a special variable.
2017-02-01T01:05:52Z TruePika: jackdaniel: FWIW, that's the call which requires ASDF and causes the issue to arise
2017-02-01T01:06:44Z TruePika: phoe: I'm actually not 100% sure right now if I need this to be an external file
2017-02-01T01:07:07Z TruePika: I only have it as such in case there are "incompatible" changes made to Terraria
2017-02-01T01:07:39Z TruePika: Ideally, I could integrate the latest .sexp from game-data into the system
2017-02-01T01:08:06Z TruePika: (probably via a macro or something, since I write the .sexp from a Powershell script)
2017-02-01T01:08:28Z TruePika: or a read at compile time
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2017-02-01T01:09:02Z TruePika: heh, this sounds more like fork material, IMO right now
2017-02-01T01:09:18Z TruePika: which is strange since I'm the owner of the project itself
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2017-02-01T01:10:05Z Bike: "different" in that the yellow block is printed with different lines
2017-02-01T01:10:17Z phoe: Bike: different lines?
2017-02-01T01:10:29Z Bike: as in the third yellow block has newlines in it.
2017-02-01T01:10:34Z phoe: Ah, yes.
2017-02-01T01:10:42Z phoe: That's just lorem ipsum.
2017-02-01T01:10:46Z Bike: ok.
2017-02-01T01:11:04Z Bike: well i guess it wasn't immediately obvious to me which was print output and which was a return value, from the symbols. but i'm not sure how that would be fixed.
2017-02-01T01:11:31Z TruePika: meh, I'll make a branch and experiment
2017-02-01T01:13:22Z TruePika: now the question is if I should have all releases, or just the latest
2017-02-01T01:13:51Z TruePika: probably safer for all, and doesn't make a size difference ATM
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2017-02-01T01:15:08Z Bike: might be weirder with multiple values too
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2017-02-01T01:17:48Z phoe: Bike: https://i.imgtc.com/9ZkzTv8.png
2017-02-01T01:18:00Z phoe: I stole these symbols from the original dpANS.
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2017-02-01T01:18:07Z phoe: And weirder? Why?
2017-02-01T01:18:09Z phoe: I can either go
2017-02-01T01:18:17Z phoe: → 1, 2, FOO, (A B C)
2017-02-01T01:18:32Z Bike: dunno. kind of trying to invent problems since issues with this are minor
2017-02-01T01:18:34Z phoe: or multiline them if necessary.
2017-02-01T01:18:39Z TruePika: think it would be safe to put the data file reads in a macro definition? When would they execute?
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2017-02-01T01:18:55Z phoe: TruePika: don't.
2017-02-01T01:18:57Z lisp99: TruePika: what are you doing?
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2017-02-01T01:19:10Z phoe: you would read the data files at macroexpansion time, which is just before compilation occurs.
2017-02-01T01:19:22Z lisp99: i mean what's your experiment about?
2017-02-01T01:19:23Z phoe: and you most likely want to have this behaviour at execution time, not at compile-time.
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2017-02-01T01:19:40Z TruePika: phoe: I want this at compile-time, actually
2017-02-01T01:19:45Z TruePika: not execution time
2017-02-01T01:20:06Z TruePika: trying to embed the data file into e.g. FASL
2017-02-01T01:20:11Z phoe: Ooh.
2017-02-01T01:20:38Z phoe: In this case - you'll want compile-time, actually.
2017-02-01T01:20:40Z TruePika: I know, it sounds crazy, but it might solve a potential problem
2017-02-01T01:20:47Z phoe: Don't do macros, then. Do EVAL-WHEN.
2017-02-01T01:20:49Z phoe: clhs eval-when
2017-02-01T01:20:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2017-02-01T01:21:27Z TruePika: well I'd have thought I'd need a macro anyway, to `ls` the directory and make an ECASE for each file
2017-02-01T01:21:58Z TruePika: but the actual file open/read would be eval-when'd to compile-time?
2017-02-01T01:22:20Z phoe: If you make it so, then yes.
2017-02-01T01:22:22Z TruePika: (I only expect the macro to be used once, might macrolet it in a function to be safe)
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2017-02-01T01:22:35Z phoe: Hm.
2017-02-01T01:22:51Z phoe: I'd need more data on what you're trying to do to give you a good answer.
2017-02-01T01:23:21Z TruePika: I'll try to write this up, and I'll link you to the commit which might or might not be horrible style
2017-02-01T01:24:25Z TruePika: basically, I want to make the form at https://github.com/TruePikachu/terraria-map-dump/blob/master/tile.lisp#L266 not depend on any external files
2017-02-01T01:25:07Z phoe: ...it's actually too late for me to process this sort of thing.
2017-02-01T01:25:14Z phoe: I'll try to think about it tomorrow.
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2017-02-01T01:41:08Z TruePika: phoe: #'LOAD-TIME-VALUE looks promising...?
2017-02-01T01:42:07Z TruePika: or nope
2017-02-01T01:42:26Z TruePika: or maybe...?
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2017-02-01T01:43:35Z TruePika: no
2017-02-01T01:44:42Z TruePika: I'm not sure EVAL-WHEN is going to work because it isn't a toplevel form
2017-02-01T01:46:23Z Bike: you could do #.(with-open-file ...). very exciting.
2017-02-01T01:46:47Z TruePika: Bike: but I need the form to be written with a macro
2017-02-01T01:47:15Z TruePika: for each file in a directory
2017-02-01T01:48:30Z TruePika: https://gist.github.com/TruePikachu/b1adf1229269eed5bbfd94f30610e522 works, but is probably messy
2017-02-01T01:48:46Z TruePika: (it does it at macroexpansion time)
2017-02-01T01:49:50Z TruePika: (I haven't actually tested it in the program itself, only with dummy files at REPL. It works in theory)
2017-02-01T01:50:22Z TruePika: (GET-INFO I) => (ECASE I (1 '(FOO)) (2 '(BAR (BAZ QUX))))
2017-02-01T01:54:06Z TruePika: macrolets are at macro-expansion time, right? Not compile or run?
2017-02-01T01:54:31Z Bike: well, yes, insofar as macroexpansion time is not compile time
2017-02-01T01:54:43Z Bike: and not runtime
2017-02-01T01:54:59Z TruePika: It doesn't feel safe having this macro in scope of everything else directly, since it would read a copy of the files for each use
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2017-02-01T02:07:38Z TruePika: well, I get a successful build on ECL of a hello test app
2017-02-01T02:07:52Z TruePika tries something slightly crazier
2017-02-01T02:09:25Z TruePika: yup, got the file embedded as well
2017-02-01T02:09:43Z TruePika: and this appears to be a workaround for the ECL issue I was having
2017-02-01T02:10:05Z TruePika: since now my code doesn't need to probe ASDF at all at runtime
2017-02-01T02:10:42Z TruePika: ...though UIOP might be nice to have
2017-02-01T02:12:10Z TruePika: or hm, ext:process-command-args
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2017-02-01T02:33:34Z TruePika: how do I tell ECL what 'gcc' to use (for xcompile)?
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2017-02-01T02:42:04Z TruePika: ECL feels slower than SBCL
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2017-02-01T02:42:22Z TruePika: though I haven't tried to optimize yet
2017-02-01T02:42:44Z TruePika: also I have no idea if ECL is using bytecode
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2017-02-01T03:15:12Z krwq: hey, is there any way to rename vars when using (destructuring-bind (&key a b) form ...) ?
2017-02-01T03:15:44Z krwq: by rename I mean something equivalent to (with-slots ((foo bar)) ...)
2017-02-01T03:16:09Z pjb: yes, for &key it's possible.
2017-02-01T03:16:41Z pillton: (destructuring-bind (&key ((:a happy-chapy)) b) form ...)
2017-02-01T03:16:51Z pjb: (destructuring (&key ((keyword variable) default predicate)) list (when predicate variable))
2017-02-01T03:17:04Z TruePika tries to see if CCL on Windows will do any sort of build
2017-02-01T03:17:24Z krwq: nice! Thank you pjb and pillton! I was trying with (&key (foo bar))!
2017-02-01T03:17:25Z TruePika: I can't xcompile through ECL without messing around with getting GMP installed
2017-02-01T03:17:52Z pillton: krwq: Destructuring-bind is ridiculously powerful.
2017-02-01T03:17:52Z pjb: Notice that the keyword doesn't need to be a KEYWORD, any symbol will do.
2017-02-01T03:20:33Z krwq: pillton, pjb: what am I doing wrong here? (destructuring-bind (&key (:foo f) bar) (list :foo 123 :bar 444)
2017-02-01T03:20:33Z krwq:              (format t "~s ~s~%" f bar)) - error:  :foo is a keyword, and cannot be used as a local variable.
2017-02-01T03:20:58Z krwq: ah wait double parens
2017-02-01T03:21:21Z krwq: ok nvm - thank you again!
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2017-02-01T03:22:57Z pillton: clhs 3.4.5
2017-02-01T03:22:58Z specbot: Destructuring Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_de.htm
2017-02-01T03:23:07Z pillton: krwq: The syntax is described there.
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2017-02-01T03:25:01Z pillton: The "var" form can also be another destructuring lambda list.
2017-02-01T03:25:36Z pillton: (destructuring-bind (&key ((:a (&key b c)))) (list :a (list :b 1))   (list b c)) => (1 nil)
2017-02-01T03:27:43Z akkad: hmm ec2 in ql uses http with credentials...
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2017-02-01T03:30:07Z TruePika: okay, now I need to figure out how to get Quicklisp to look at my git directory
2017-02-01T03:30:13Z TruePika: without setting a link since its a PITA
2017-02-01T03:30:51Z TruePika: or meh, might as well
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2017-02-01T03:32:28Z TruePika: looks like my system is loading
2017-02-01T03:32:33Z TruePika: finally on a Windows host
2017-02-01T03:32:41Z TruePika: ...that was fast
2017-02-01T03:32:54Z TruePika: err ofc I don't have the repo up-to-date <_<
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2017-02-01T03:50:56Z TruePika: meh, vanilla ASDF:OPERATE 'PROGRAM-OP drops the binary in .cache
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2017-02-01T04:04:05Z akkad: yeah "move-here"
2017-02-01T04:04:26Z akkad: or does program-op support move-here?
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2017-02-01T04:13:12Z ebzzry: Has anyone experienced the 'wrong size' issue with quicklisp? http://paste.lisp.org/+78PV
2017-02-01T04:15:33Z loke: ebzzry: Do you have a weird web proxy?
2017-02-01T04:15:53Z loke: what happens if you curl that URL?
2017-02-01T04:16:07Z TruePika: akkad: no matter, I finally have a Windows build
2017-02-01T04:16:27Z loke: TruePika: How did you solve your problem eventually?
2017-02-01T04:16:39Z TruePika: though CCL seems to force all arrays as being vectors, and a 20160000-element vector is too long for x86
2017-02-01T04:16:48Z TruePika: loke: CCL instead
2017-02-01T04:16:54Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-01T04:16:59Z loke: Hello beachman
2017-02-01T04:17:09Z TruePika: I just compiled x86-64 instead, to work around that "bug"
2017-02-01T04:17:54Z TruePika: I mean seriously, it was trying to make a SIMPLE-VECTOR from a MAKE-ARRAY of two dimensions
2017-02-01T04:18:36Z pillton: What is wrong with that?
2017-02-01T04:18:49Z TruePika: I just read the docs, there actually isn't
2017-02-01T04:19:02Z TruePika: but it prevents e.g. rendering "Large" maps on x86
2017-02-01T04:19:11Z ebzzry: loke: good question
2017-02-01T04:19:23Z TruePika: you only get #xFFFFFF indices
2017-02-01T04:19:44Z pillton: TruePika: What is the value of array-dimension-limit?
2017-02-01T04:19:55Z TruePika: pillton: I'd think #xFFFFFF, I'll check
2017-02-01T04:20:21Z TruePika: #xFFFFFF
2017-02-01T04:20:41Z TruePika: array-total-size-limit is the same
2017-02-01T04:20:52Z TruePika: which is the annoying one
2017-02-01T04:21:16Z loke: TruePika: Then again, do you really need 32-bit?
2017-02-01T04:21:16Z pillton: That is weird.
2017-02-01T04:21:59Z TruePika: loke: given that there was a recent discussion over at /r/terraria about if TModLoader should drop 32-bit support, I'd prefer to actually be able to have a 32-bit build
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2017-02-01T04:23:02Z loke: TruePika: what is /r/terraria, and what is Tmodloader?
2017-02-01T04:23:16Z TruePika: loke: Subreddit, and mod loader for Terraria
2017-02-01T04:23:28Z TruePika: my code dumps .map files from Terraria, which is why it is relevant
2017-02-01T04:23:42Z loke: Right, so if they will stop support for 32-bit, why would you want it?
2017-02-01T04:24:11Z TruePika: It was rather a discussion about _if_ they should, but I'm just going to go with the x86-64 build
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2017-02-01T04:26:46Z TruePika: heh 33MB
2017-02-01T04:26:52Z TruePika: well, there's an entire REPL in there
2017-02-01T04:27:05Z TruePika: and instances of all the libs, etc.
2017-02-01T04:30:50Z TruePika: welp
2017-02-01T04:31:02Z TruePika: my binary is larger than the Terraria binary is
2017-02-01T04:31:18Z TruePika: (though I have all my deps internally)
2017-02-01T04:32:17Z TruePika: (and an entire REPL)
2017-02-01T04:32:56Z TruePika: and possibly copies of all the original code
2017-02-01T04:33:03Z TruePika: but I don't know what CCL does
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2017-02-01T04:33:34Z loke: TruePika: If size is important, you might neet to go back to trying to get ECL to work, as it generates smaller binaries.
2017-02-01T04:34:19Z TruePika: loke: I know, but there's also the whole part of the REPL still
2017-02-01T04:34:34Z TruePika: somehow managing to get rid of the REPL will save a _lot_ of space
2017-02-01T04:34:44Z loke: TruePika: I'm not su sure it will.
2017-02-01T04:35:02Z TruePika: if it is compiled versus interpreted, it should
2017-02-01T04:35:03Z loke: The REPL isn't big at all. What I presume you want to eliminate is the compiler and interpreter.
2017-02-01T04:35:09Z TruePika: yeah
2017-02-01T04:35:28Z loke: I seem to recall ECL has some features to get rid of some of that.
2017-02-01T04:35:44Z TruePika: well, I need to use asdf:build-op
2017-02-01T04:35:50Z TruePika: err
2017-02-01T04:35:59Z TruePika: well, I need to build through ASDF, since all my deps
2017-02-01T04:36:06Z pillton: That doesn't get rid of the compiler and interpreter.
2017-02-01T04:36:10Z TruePika: (stuff from quicklisp mainly, but my lib as well)
2017-02-01T04:36:28Z TruePika: I'm not sure there's a very simple way to do so from ASDF
2017-02-01T04:36:41Z TruePika: but I'd want an expert's advice on that
2017-02-01T04:37:13Z TruePika: also I'd need to get a compiler set up on Windows in order to go the ECL route
2017-02-01T04:37:23Z pillton: I don't even think you can. Some implementations of generic functions call COMPILE.
2017-02-01T04:37:26Z White_Flame: the feature is called a "tree shaker", so you can search around
2017-02-01T04:37:43Z loke: TruePika: why do you need asdf:buiold-op?
2017-02-01T04:38:02Z loke: You can create a build script that simply calls ql:quickload and them dumps.
2017-02-01T04:38:13Z TruePika: loke: well, not build-op specifically, but...
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2017-02-01T04:38:33Z TruePika: that quickload-dump thing? That's what the build-op is doing on SBCL and CCL
2017-02-01T04:38:54Z TruePika: (build-op is also setting the entry point, though)
2017-02-01T04:39:18Z loke: TruePika: No. You ql:quickload your code, then call C:BUILD-PROGRAM
2017-02-01T04:39:34Z loke: Doesn't that work?
2017-02-01T04:39:45Z TruePika: don't you need to pass .o files to C:BUILD-PROGRAM ?
2017-02-01T04:39:56Z TruePika: key :LISP-FILES?
2017-02-01T04:40:19Z TruePika: that's what the (old) docs said, at least
2017-02-01T04:40:25Z loke: Afaik, no
2017-02-01T04:41:30Z loke: Oh wait...
2017-02-01T04:43:59Z loke: Hanmg on, let me test
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2017-02-01T04:49:49Z loke: TruePika: OK, I see now.
2017-02-01T04:50:48Z loke: TruePika: But can't you simply resolve the list of .o files manually and add them to the :lisp-files argument to ECL?
2017-02-01T04:51:42Z loke: TruePika: On my system, the generated binary becomes very small, and it's only depending on libecl.so which is 12 MB.
2017-02-01T04:52:16Z TruePika: would you want to iterate through all systems in the deptree and collect .o files for them?
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2017-02-01T04:58:11Z loke: TruePika: Yes. That's what I would do.
2017-02-01T04:58:34Z loke: I'd clean the cache, do a single QL:QUICKLOAD to generate all the .o files and then generate the final list.
2017-02-01T04:58:36Z TruePika: well, I don't want to, at least not in the near future
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2017-02-01T04:59:07Z TruePika: why clean instead of back up?
2017-02-01T04:59:15Z loke: TruePika: Same thing :-)
2017-02-01T04:59:18Z TruePika finds compiliation times to sometimes be annoying
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2017-02-01T04:59:36Z TruePika: I mean, ideally I'd want to use already-compiled .o
2017-02-01T04:59:59Z TruePika: rather than compiling the same file to the same .o 50 million times
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2017-02-01T05:00:32Z TruePika: (part of the reason why I moved to using autoconf instead of making my own Makefiles)
2017-02-01T05:00:36Z loke: TruePika: Well, you would.
2017-02-01T05:02:13Z loke: Why would you recompile all the .o files over and over?
2017-02-01T05:02:31Z loke: THis would only be for final generation of the executable.
2017-02-01T05:03:10Z loke: For development, you do what you always do.
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2017-02-01T05:03:43Z TruePika: ...good point, especially since I do all my dev in my VM
2017-02-01T05:03:51Z TruePika: and I'd only need this for Windows builds
2017-02-01T05:03:56Z loke: TruePika: Exactly.
2017-02-01T05:04:27Z loke: THen you end up with a single binary that only depends on libecl.so (well, ECL.DLL on Windows, I'd guess?)
2017-02-01T05:04:51Z loke: And it'd be abould half the size of the CCL solution?
2017-02-01T05:05:03Z loke: Anyway, just my thoughts on how I'd do it.
2017-02-01T05:05:19Z akkad: but the code is there and easily extracted with strings(1)
2017-02-01T05:05:24Z TruePika: seems logical, but I don't have time for any of that tonight
2017-02-01T05:05:27Z loke: I'm probably the last Windowsy user you'd find, so please take my advice with the appropriate amount of salt.
2017-02-01T05:05:33Z TruePika: akkad: in my binary?
2017-02-01T05:05:40Z akkad: thats what I found with ecl
2017-02-01T05:06:35Z loke: If the goal is to "protect" the code, then I can be of zero help. I have no experience in that.
2017-02-01T05:07:15Z TruePika: I don't think there's much point to trying to protect code that's on a public git repository :)
2017-02-01T05:07:45Z akkad: well for the binary distribution of closed source case.
2017-02-01T05:07:48Z loke: That was my impression, but akkad mentioned it so I thought I was misinformed.
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2017-02-01T05:08:23Z TruePika: no, the thing is that very few people on Windows are likely to install a Lisp impl just to dump minimaps
2017-02-01T05:09:21Z TruePika: This and a "private" code project for a friend are pretty much the only two things I've compiled to a native bin
2017-02-01T05:09:46Z akkad: although I could have been delivering the wrong way on ecl too
2017-02-01T05:09:52Z TruePika: (and the private code project was just so SBCL wouldn't keep compiling it on my server)
2017-02-01T05:10:55Z loke: akkad: My understanding is that on Windows, DLL's are automatically found int he same directory as the binary is, so a Windows distribution would be nothing more than the generated binary and the ECL.DLL file (and possibly GMP.DLL and GC.DLL? I don't know how ECL on Windows is built)
2017-02-01T05:12:51Z TruePika: loke: they would be
2017-02-01T05:12:59Z loke: I need to run to the electrocis shop, back soon.
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2017-02-01T05:20:20Z TruePika: akkad: if you want your code to truly be safe, you can't distribute it
2017-02-01T05:20:45Z TruePika: anyone with a disassembler can look at it
2017-02-01T05:21:46Z TruePika: I've shown this to be true many times :)
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2017-02-01T05:27:12Z TruePika: Night all
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2017-02-01T05:45:12Z jasom: Is someone having issues with binary distribution on ECL?  I see a lot of discussion but not what started it
2017-02-01T05:45:35Z jasom: also the libecl.so is much smaller than 12MB stripped IIRC
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2017-02-01T05:46:15Z jasom: 3.2MB on my system.
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2017-02-01T06:28:16Z jackdaniel: TruePika: loke: c:build-program etc are ECL extension which work on files. System (as defined by asdf or older build tools) is something artificial to CL spec
2017-02-01T06:29:24Z jackdaniel: TruePika: what you want is make-build or (arguably) program-op as you have seen on the issue on launchpad
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2017-02-01T06:45:17Z jackdaniel: TruePika: if you are depending on ASDF symbols, put prebuilt-asdf in dependencies.
2017-02-01T06:45:34Z jackdaniel: then it will be present in the final executable
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2017-02-01T06:46:08Z jackdaniel: (but it's a hog – bumps executable size by 2.2MB – you may (require asdf) from your code as an alternative)
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2017-02-01T06:54:31Z beach: Wow, 2.2MB.  That would be as much as 0.02 USD.
2017-02-01T06:55:08Z beach: Multiply that by 50 users, and you get an entire $.
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2017-02-01T07:17:26Z jackdaniel: beach: multiply it by 1183960 binaries I have in /usr/bin, and you have a bit more
2017-02-01T07:17:44Z beach: All those come from ECL?
2017-02-01T07:18:09Z jackdaniel: no, but if this system would be based on Lisp application, they would
2017-02-01T07:18:45Z beach: Then you probably wouldn't have a separate binary for each application.
2017-02-01T07:19:20Z jackdaniel: yes, that's why I'm recommending dynamic load via FASL
2017-02-01T07:19:28Z jackdaniel: which has ASDF in a separate binary
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2017-02-01T07:20:45Z beach: Also, I counted RAM cost.  You wouldn't execute that many binaries simultaneously.
2017-02-01T07:22:09Z jackdaniel: sure, 2.2MB bump is in hard disk space, didn't measure how much RAM does it use
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2017-02-01T07:49:35Z flip214: RAM should be used only once, as it should be shared across all active binaries anyway.
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2017-02-01T08:02:04Z loke: A waste of RAM and storage is always a waste of RAM and storage, and if it's avoidable, why not?
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2017-02-01T08:13:06Z varjag: for ELS, should one register for "full conference" at programming'17?
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2017-02-01T08:15:04Z beach: varjag: It looks to me like it is possible to register for "workshops and symposiums", and I assume that would include ELS.
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2017-02-01T08:15:26Z beach: varjag: Assuming ELS is all you want to attend, of course.
2017-02-01T08:15:50Z varjag: that was the plan
2017-02-01T08:16:37Z beach: Then it looks like you can save enough money for a decent meal at a good restaurant by limiting your registration that way. :)
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2017-02-01T08:18:44Z varjag: hope the company will cover it anyway
2017-02-01T08:19:35Z varjag: just that i won't be able to attend for full week of the conference, so..
2017-02-01T08:20:39Z jackdaniel: btw, is there any kind of dinner planned for attendees?
2017-02-01T08:21:12Z jackdaniel: like the last year – I haven't encountered any mention of banquet or anything like that
2017-02-01T08:21:39Z varjag: "There will be a reception on Monday and Tuesday; the banquet is on Wednesday. "
2017-02-01T08:22:22Z jackdaniel: ah, I have missed that part probably
2017-02-01T08:22:23Z jackdaniel: thanks
2017-02-01T08:22:34Z beach: The banquet may not be included in the price if you select "workshops and symposiums".  It wasn't clear to me.
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2017-02-01T10:07:31Z p_l: anyone knows and could recommend a telnet implementation in Common Lisp?
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2017-02-01T10:12:31Z jdz: I hacked one up recently for my own needs...
2017-02-01T10:13:18Z jdz: There is COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.TELNET, but I could not see how to make it useful for me...
2017-02-01T10:13:39Z jdz: Then there was another one that did not exactly fit my use case.
2017-02-01T10:14:20Z jdz: p_l: what's your use-case?
2017-02-01T10:14:41Z p_l: proxy server for virtual serial ports
2017-02-01T10:14:56Z p_l: need to implement vmware protocol extensions
2017-02-01T10:16:03Z p_l: clients connect by telnet (possibly with NVT extension) to the proxy, the proxy passes it to a connection that the vmware hypervisor made to it (with NVT and vmware ext)
2017-02-01T10:16:21Z jdz: I guess I could make my source available in case you find it useful.
2017-02-01T10:16:53Z jdz: But the feature set is very limited...
2017-02-01T10:17:19Z jdz: The informatigo one supposedly covers the full feature set, if you manage to make it work that is.
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2017-02-01T10:30:04Z jdz: p_l: just in case, here it is: https://github.com/jdz/telnet-stream
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2017-02-01T10:38:46Z p_l: thx
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2017-02-01T11:32:55Z shka: hey
2017-02-01T11:33:28Z phoe_: Sup
2017-02-01T11:33:33Z shka: slime/lisp mode in emacs really wants my code to be in the form of #f () instead of #f()
2017-02-01T11:33:45Z shka: any idea what controls this formatting?
2017-02-01T11:34:48Z jackdaniel: I think baggers has fixed that some time ago and shared the fix here – it's on the emacs lisp side I'm afraid
2017-02-01T11:35:19Z shka: oh right i guess…
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2017-02-01T12:08:45Z ogamita: jdz: to use informatimago telnet, you have to provide the I/O layer.  The basic functionality is implemented, but I still have to implement all the options. It can be used both to implement telnet servers and telnet clients.   On the other hand, I'm not sure the other implementation is able to work as server?
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2017-02-01T12:32:54Z jdz: Yes, my implementation is client only.
2017-02-01T12:33:56Z jdz: ogamita: it would be nice if your implementation would provide sample code to use your code to create a client and/or server (on one of the implementations).
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2017-02-01T13:32:04Z Xach: hmm, only one quicklisp project affected by the gitlab.com outage
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2017-02-01T13:49:44Z phoe_: Xach: which one is it?
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2017-02-01T14:06:42Z shka: hey #lisp, i have a question
2017-02-01T14:06:57Z shka: I really like scheme predictates naming schema
2017-02-01T14:07:05Z shka: namely: pred? instead of predp
2017-02-01T14:07:20Z shka: is it socially acceptable to use this schema in common lisp as well?
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2017-02-01T14:09:16Z ogamita: jdz: Yes. For now, there's https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/telnet/test.lisp
2017-02-01T14:10:12Z ogamita: shka: if you're consistent in your project. But the problem is that other CL and CL libraries use -p and p suffixes.  So it'll soon be boring to have expressions like (and (foo? x) (integerp x))
2017-02-01T14:11:01Z shka: i know, i just prefer ? over p that much
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2017-02-01T14:11:10Z shka: it is kinda silly of me, really
2017-02-01T14:11:19Z Xach: I find it pretty unpleasant to read in CL code.
2017-02-01T14:11:21Z ogamita: shka: also there may be some confusion depending on what kind of code you have. For example, ? is often used (but in general as prefix) in pattern matching to denote variables to be bound.
2017-02-01T14:12:03Z ogamita: So you'd get stuff like: (and (expression? e) (matchp '(+ ?a ?b) e))
2017-02-01T14:13:30Z varjag: ? is scheme-ism
2017-02-01T14:13:32Z shka: sure
2017-02-01T14:13:36Z shka: varjag: yup
2017-02-01T14:14:22Z ogamita: ? and ! as suffixes for function names.
2017-02-01T14:15:13Z ogamita: Otherwise, ? and ! (and {} and []) in CL are reserved for user-defined reader macros.  This would also be a reason to avoid them in library code.
2017-02-01T14:15:58Z shka: yeah
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2017-02-01T14:28:05Z jdz: ogamita: yes, I looked into that file, and it is very confusing.
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2017-02-01T14:31:06Z ogamita: jdz: If you want, send me an email, and I'll try to provide a nicer sample to answer your questions over the week-end.
2017-02-01T14:31:44Z ogamita: jdz: ogamita = pjb -> mailto:pjb@informatimago.com
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2017-02-01T14:34:27Z jdz: ogamita: thanks for the kind offer, but my only question is: if I'm writing a Telnet client, where do I put my TCP socket so that it all works?
2017-02-01T14:35:13Z jdz: I think it would be a valuable addition to documentation/readme.
2017-02-01T14:36:22Z ogamita: Well, you see, I cannot really answer for you: when you implement a client (or a server), you have multiple choices to organize the data flow with the sockets.  You could have threads, you could have event-based I/O (select/poll as wrapped by iolib), or you could use synchronous or asynchronous I/O.
2017-02-01T14:36:42Z ogamita: This is why I/O is not implemented in a protocol library.
2017-02-01T14:36:59Z ogamita: But indeed, multiple examples are possible.
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2017-02-01T14:38:07Z ogamita: Also, a "telnet client" is not necessarily a terminal emulator.  You may have various needs with respect to the telnet part itself.  You won't necessarily send telnet commands and message from an interactive user input; it may come from a bot, a background process, stuff…
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2017-02-01T14:39:00Z ogamita: jdz: just send me an email, so that I remember to do it this week end ;-)
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2017-02-01T14:41:58Z jdz: ogamita: OK, I will.
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2017-02-01T18:25:49Z otwieracz: How can I convert number 1234 to '(1 2 3 4)?
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2017-02-01T18:28:21Z oleo: you can string it
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2017-02-01T18:28:54Z otwieracz: That's obvious one - but terrible.
2017-02-01T18:29:38Z Bike: loop over the digits using mod and use a map from numbers to characters
2017-02-01T18:29:44Z Bike: honestly i'd just write to a string
2017-02-01T18:29:57Z Bike: oh wait, no characters, sorry
2017-02-01T18:29:59Z Bike: yeah mod then
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2017-02-01T18:30:09Z oleo: mod why ?
2017-02-01T18:30:20Z Bike: because that's the obvious way to extract digits?
2017-02-01T18:31:27Z oleo: mod 1000 mod 100 mod 10 ?
2017-02-01T18:31:39Z Bike: just mod 10 and floor 10 repeatedly, obviously.
2017-02-01T18:31:56Z oleo: hmmm ok
2017-02-01T18:32:54Z otwieracz: (defun integer-to-list (int)
2017-02-01T18:32:54Z otwieracz:   (multiple-value-bind (a b) (truncate int 10)
2017-02-01T18:32:54Z otwieracz:     (if (zerop a)
2017-02-01T18:32:54Z otwieracz:         (list b)
2017-02-01T18:32:54Z otwieracz:         (append (integer-to-list a) (list b))))))
2017-02-01T18:32:57Z otwieracz: Any better ideas? :)
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2017-02-01T18:35:25Z oleo: does that work for floats too ?
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2017-02-01T18:36:08Z otwieracz: Well - it's named „integer-to-list” by some reason… :)
2017-02-01T18:36:09Z Bike: (defun integer-to-list (int) (let (digits) (loop (push (mod int 10) digits) (setf int (truncate int 10)) (when (zerop int) (return digits))))
2017-02-01T18:36:24Z Bike: probably some way to write that as a big loop but meh
2017-02-01T18:36:44Z oleo: ya but....
2017-02-01T18:37:08Z oleo: (if (integerp int)...... would be good too....
2017-02-01T18:37:26Z Bike: otwieracz knows what they want, no need to second guess this
2017-02-01T18:37:40Z otwieracz: yep, that's very internal.
2017-02-01T18:40:13Z otwieracz: And now the other way around!
2017-02-01T18:40:17Z otwieracz: List to integer. :)
2017-02-01T18:41:24Z travv0: Just throwing this out there, but in a very unscientific test I just did, writing it to a string seems to be the fastest way in case performance matters
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2017-02-01T18:48:38Z jackdaniel: travv0: you mean (coerce 'list (format nil "~s" 12345)) and (parse-integer (coerce 'string string-int))) ; ?
2017-02-01T18:49:21Z Bike: it's actual digits, so you'd need another step. (map 'list #'digit-char-p (format nil "~s" 12345))
2017-02-01T18:49:42Z jackdaniel: right
2017-02-01T18:50:46Z travv0: I used write-to-string, not sure how much of a difference that makes
2017-02-01T18:51:08Z jackdaniel: none at all, I just couldn't remember the function name ;)
2017-02-01T18:51:25Z travv0: Then yep, that's what I did
2017-02-01T18:51:26Z jackdaniel: (maybe performance-wise difference, format is big)
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2017-02-01T18:53:05Z dlowe: the other way is way easier. Just (reduce (lambda (x y) (+ (* x 10) y)) list)
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2017-02-01T19:10:55Z otwieracz: Is tere someting like „(loop for x from 0 to 20 by 0.3 collect (* x 123))”?
2017-02-01T19:11:15Z otwieracz: I mean, iterate by some step.
2017-02-01T19:11:18Z Xach: something very like it
2017-02-01T19:11:21Z dlowe: that's valid syntax.
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2017-02-01T19:11:24Z otwieracz: Oh dear.
2017-02-01T19:11:29Z otwieracz: That's always with loop…
2017-02-01T19:11:41Z otwieracz: „How to do something like X”
2017-02-01T19:11:44Z otwieracz: „exactly like that”
2017-02-01T19:12:24Z otwieracz: hah, but (loop for x from 0 to 10 by 0.3) is not including 10 here.
2017-02-01T19:12:29Z otwieracz: (what is correct)
2017-02-01T19:12:37Z otwieracz: but how to finish with the last one?
2017-02-01T19:13:19Z TruePika is back
2017-02-01T19:13:43Z TruePika: if you're stepping by 0.3, you won't ever get exactly 10
2017-02-01T19:13:47Z otwieracz: Yes, I know.
2017-02-01T19:13:56Z TruePika: what number do you want to finish with?
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2017-02-01T19:14:19Z TruePika: 9.9 or 10.2?
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2017-02-01T19:15:09Z otwieracz: I'd like to iterate from 0 to 10 by 3 producing (0 3 6 9 10)
2017-02-01T19:15:17Z otwieracz: Eg, always include 0 and 10.
2017-02-01T19:15:37Z otwieracz: What is, of course, mathematically weird.
2017-02-01T19:15:43Z TruePika: you can't always include 10 using just a straight loop
2017-02-01T19:15:45Z Bike: that's not an arithmetic progression, yeah. i don't think loop can do it
2017-02-01T19:16:00Z phoe: finally collect 10
2017-02-01T19:16:11Z phoe: I wonder if it works
2017-02-01T19:16:15Z shka: yup
2017-02-01T19:16:18Z otwieracz: nope.
2017-02-01T19:16:25Z shka: it would work with iterate
2017-02-01T19:16:28Z shka: i think!
2017-02-01T19:16:33Z otwieracz: Because it will double when 0 to 10 by 5
2017-02-01T19:16:39Z phoe: everything works with iterate®
2017-02-01T19:16:49Z phoe: otwieracz: so make a check.
2017-02-01T19:16:50Z Bike: finally is like a do clause, so no.
2017-02-01T19:17:08Z phoe: finally if (/= x 10) collect 10
2017-02-01T19:17:18Z phoe: let's hope that X is bound in the finally clause
2017-02-01T19:17:25Z TruePika pulls up CLQR
2017-02-01T19:17:34Z TruePika: I have an idea
2017-02-01T19:17:35Z otwieracz: OK, maybe it's nevermind.
2017-02-01T19:17:57Z shka: phoe: actually, won't work
2017-02-01T19:17:59Z TruePika: FINALLY can't use e.g. COLLECT, from the loop macro page
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2017-02-01T19:18:03Z shka: anyway
2017-02-01T19:18:04Z TruePika: only normal forms
2017-02-01T19:18:13Z dlowe: collect into y finally (if (= x end) (return y) (return (append y (list x))))
2017-02-01T19:18:18Z otwieracz: Because step always come from (/ end-of-range number-of-steps)
2017-02-01T19:18:37Z shka: guys, how can i get AND method-combination generic function for use with ensure-generic-function in closer2mop?
2017-02-01T19:18:40Z otwieracz: So thank to rationals it should hopefully finish close enugh to end-of-range
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2017-02-01T19:18:57Z TruePika: (loop for i from 0 below 10 step 3 collect i into var finally (return (append var (list 10)))) ?
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2017-02-01T19:19:23Z TruePika: (LIST 10) might be able to just be 10, IDK without REPL
2017-02-01T19:19:34Z shka: or object i think
2017-02-01T19:19:43Z shka: and seems to be a actually a class
2017-02-01T19:19:47Z TruePika starts clisp
2017-02-01T19:20:40Z TruePika: err not step
2017-02-01T19:21:03Z TruePika: (loop for i from 0 below 10 by 3 collect i into var finally (return (append var (list 10)))) => (0 3 6 9 10)
2017-02-01T19:22:00Z Bike: (ensure-generic-function 'foo :lambda-list '(x y) :method-combination '(and)) works for me, but i don't know
2017-02-01T19:22:20Z Bike: that's how sbcl does it internally, even though passing a list as the method combination doesn't seem valid from clhs
2017-02-01T19:22:56Z TruePika: jackdaniel: PROGRAM-OP works in non-ECL (I used it from both SBCL and CCL, and used the latter to make my Windows binary)
2017-02-01T19:24:12Z TruePika: jackdaniel: The actual issue about not having _ASDF_ is irrelevant as of https://github.com/TruePikachu/terraria-map-dump/commit/92d827f735bab55910001e8e497dad97a36adfd6
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2017-02-01T19:25:05Z TruePika: jackdaniel: I had tested with prebuilt-asdf before, it didn't help at all with the code prior to the linked commit
2017-02-01T19:25:24Z shka: Bike: thanks, i would never guess about '(and)
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2017-02-01T19:25:48Z shka: but it is strange to say the least
2017-02-01T19:26:26Z phoe: '(and)?
2017-02-01T19:26:38Z Bike: method combinations are underspecified even in mop.
2017-02-01T19:26:40Z TruePika: jackdaniel: I still would like to get smaller binaries built eventually, as it stands right now, my binary is larger than the game it relates to
2017-02-01T19:26:48Z phoe: this is not obvious in the slightest
2017-02-01T19:28:08Z TruePika: though my binary arguably is more useful than the game, what with it containing a full Lisp impl; Terraria doesn't contain a full dotnet
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2017-02-01T19:36:26Z shka: well, i guess i should not try to play with method-combination here
2017-02-01T19:36:38Z shka: although ensure-generic-function seems to work
2017-02-01T19:36:44Z shka: i have no idea about ensure-method
2017-02-01T19:37:05Z TruePika: meh, I should probably write a Powershell extension at some point for making s-expressions
2017-02-01T19:38:15Z shka: scratch that
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2017-02-01T19:38:27Z shka: Bike: thanks for help, after reloading my code, this works
2017-02-01T19:38:31Z shka: which is nice
2017-02-01T19:38:39Z Bike: you might want to check it on other implementations
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2017-02-01T19:40:00Z phoe: uh
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2017-02-01T19:40:22Z phoe: I just realized that we need a (semi-)publicly available service similar to CL-TEST-GRID
2017-02-01T19:40:34Z phoe: basically, you can upload some code to it and it gets executed
2017-02-01T19:40:37Z phoe: and you get notified of the results
2017-02-01T19:41:02Z phoe: multiple lisp implementations as a service.
2017-02-01T19:41:06Z shka: Bike: i will, eventually ;-)
2017-02-01T19:41:42Z phoe: I'd love to have the tests for my applications run on this without manually installing X implementations.
2017-02-01T19:42:04Z phoe: Even though it's much simpler now that jackdaniel compiled the instructions on building all of them.
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2017-02-01T19:44:43Z phoe: God damn it.
2017-02-01T19:44:53Z phoe: Now I have yet another project to create.
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2017-02-01T19:55:15Z mood: phoe: You can do that using something like Travis CI
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2017-02-01T19:58:58Z phoe: mood: yes, I instantly thought of travis.
2017-02-01T19:59:16Z phoe: But I have a slightly different idea.
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2017-02-01T20:00:47Z phoe: I can see CL-TRAVIS there - and I'd like to set up a public service that allows users to test their Lisp code against an array of implementations.
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2017-02-01T20:02:06Z TruePika: phoe: similar to Browsershots?
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2017-02-01T20:02:27Z phoe: Correct.
2017-02-01T20:12:03Z phoe: Basically - you spin up a snapshot of a virtual machine with the implementations preloaded onto its filesystem. In the most simple case, you evaluate the expression pasted onto a website in all of them and print the returned results onto the screen. In the advanced case, you essentially run Travis on them and expect that the debugger is not entered at any moment.
2017-02-01T20:12:15Z phoe: s/the screen/the website with results/
2017-02-01T20:13:42Z phoe: The advanced case is not unlike CL-TEST-GRID, but the simple case is for simple requests, such as making sure that all implementations behave sane when exposed to some standard, semistandard or cross-implementation requests.
2017-02-01T20:14:57Z phoe: Such a facility needs three things though: time, people and a machine for deployment.
2017-02-01T20:15:42Z phoe: The first and second - I'd need to ask for help and hope for someone interested in the project to help me with this. The third is basically money thrown in the cloud.
2017-02-01T20:16:12Z phoe: ...or someone's private virtualization server.
2017-02-01T20:25:11Z TruePika: phoe: might also want to enforce time limits
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2017-02-01T20:25:32Z TruePika: otherwise you'll get people testing '(sleep most-positive-fixnum)
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2017-02-01T20:26:02Z phoe: TruePika: yes.
2017-02-01T20:26:11Z phoe: TruePika: haha, no, why sleep?
2017-02-01T20:26:13Z phoe: (loop)
2017-02-01T20:27:19Z phoe: Yes, I will want to enforce time limits.
2017-02-01T20:27:46Z jackdaniel: TruePika: your test case from gist works just fine for me
2017-02-01T20:28:19Z jackdaniel: (when I replace dependency on asdf with prebuilt-asdf)
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2017-02-01T20:29:29Z TruePika: what about replacing the ASDF call in foo.lisp for something similar to the linked commit?
2017-02-01T20:29:58Z TruePika: except looking for some package that ASDF should know about already, versus :terraria-map-dump
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2017-02-01T20:30:39Z TruePika: If ASDF:ASDF-VERSION works, that should also work (in theory), but I was using that other ASDF call when I tested prebuilt-asdf
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2017-02-01T20:31:15Z jackdaniel: sorry, I'm not quite parsing what you are saying. Could you pack whole system in tar and post it somewhere?
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2017-02-01T20:32:43Z TruePika: replace, in `foo.lisp` from the Gist test case, the (asdf:asdf-version) with e.g. (asdf:system-source-directory :asdf) (or some other system on the machine)
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2017-02-01T20:33:41Z TruePika: I tested #:PREBUILT-ASDF using a ASDF:SYSTEM-SOURCE-DIRECTORY call instead of ASDF:ASDF-VERSION
2017-02-01T20:34:01Z TruePika: though it is entirely possible prebuilt-asdf will work in your configuration
2017-02-01T20:34:52Z TruePika: ...where does prebuilt-asdf even come from?
2017-02-01T20:35:46Z jackdaniel: it's the asdf static library bundled with ecl
2017-02-01T20:35:54Z TruePika: ah
2017-02-01T20:36:16Z TruePika: which would have been the version from the latest release
2017-02-01T20:36:39Z TruePika boots VM
2017-02-01T20:37:12Z TruePika: I'll test the prebuilt locally in the "vanilla" test case (as on gist)
2017-02-01T20:37:34Z TruePika: if it fails, I probably have some sort of config problem somewhere
2017-02-01T20:39:00Z TruePika: yeah, prebuilt works with vanilla test
2017-02-01T20:39:09Z jackdaniel: TruePika: your example works fine with system-source-directory too
2017-02-01T20:39:15Z jackdaniel: I had to clean cache though
2017-02-01T20:39:38Z jackdaniel: because asdf didn't happen to pick up the dependency change probably
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2017-02-01T20:40:49Z phoe: I'm taking another day off CLUS.
2017-02-01T20:41:00Z TruePika: hm, component "terraria-map-dump" not found
2017-02-01T20:41:07Z TruePika: so seems like its working
2017-02-01T20:41:09Z jackdaniel: I don't know what terraria-map-dump is
2017-02-01T20:41:24Z TruePika: local project, ASDF shouldn't see it without Quicklisp
2017-02-01T20:41:34Z TruePika: which isn't loaded
2017-02-01T20:41:56Z jackdaniel: ah
2017-02-01T20:42:15Z jackdaniel: if you put this project as a dependency it will be bundled in the executable
2017-02-01T20:42:17Z TruePika: maybe the issue was something with unclean cache?
2017-02-01T20:42:29Z jackdaniel: maybe
2017-02-01T20:42:39Z TruePika: no, I was testing (asdf:system-source-directory :terraria-map-dump)
2017-02-01T20:42:44Z jackdaniel: ah
2017-02-01T20:43:24Z TruePika: so this is rather curious, not that I have a dep on ASDF in the project anymore at runtime
2017-02-01T20:43:33Z TruePika: (only compile-time)
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2017-02-01T20:43:52Z jackdaniel: if it says, that component is not found, then it means asdf is accessible
2017-02-01T20:43:59Z jackdaniel: and it can't find the component you look for
2017-02-01T20:44:12Z TruePika: yeah, which shows that prebuilt is working in the test case
2017-02-01T20:44:13Z jackdaniel: (i.e terraria-map-dump isn't accessible from a registry)
2017-02-01T20:44:17Z jackdaniel: great
2017-02-01T20:44:33Z TruePika: versus how a couple days ago the ASDF package wasn't found with prebuilt
2017-02-01T20:44:54Z TruePika: maybe because terraria-map-dump didn't have the dep to prebuilt? IDK
2017-02-01T20:45:01Z jackdaniel: as I have said, I had to clean the cache to make it work
2017-02-01T20:45:31Z TruePika: I only just recently learned about the whole cache system, to be fair
2017-02-01T20:45:42Z TruePika: as in where it is
2017-02-01T20:46:29Z jackdaniel: it's asdf thing
2017-02-01T20:46:39Z jackdaniel: usually when you compile-file, it puts fasl in the same directory
2017-02-01T20:47:00Z TruePika: yeah, but I knew it wasn't under e.g. SBCL
2017-02-01T20:47:16Z TruePika: so I knew ASDF was doing something, just didn't know _exactly_ what
2017-02-01T20:47:30Z TruePika: but now I do
2017-02-01T20:47:36Z jackdaniel: supposedly sophisticated cache speeds up asdf, but it causes problems at times
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2017-02-01T20:47:56Z jackdaniel: because it's not just this – asdf caches queries to asd systems and much more calls
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2017-02-01T20:48:00Z TruePika: it does speed things up quite a bit, what with not having to recompile things that didn't change
2017-02-01T20:50:00Z TruePika: interesting, I don't see those funcall caches in my SBCL .cache
2017-02-01T20:50:07Z TruePika: just the FASL builds
2017-02-01T20:50:28Z jackdaniel: it's cached in the running lisp process image
2017-02-01T20:50:33Z akkad: hi jackdaniel
2017-02-01T20:50:37Z jackdaniel: hey akkad
2017-02-01T20:50:49Z TruePika: ah, I know about that
2017-02-01T20:51:01Z jackdaniel: I've worked a bit with your case, it seems that you have some indirect dependency on ql-setup:qmerge (?)
2017-02-01T20:51:08Z TruePika: I just restart the image then
2017-02-01T20:51:09Z jackdaniel: in one of the systems
2017-02-01T20:52:34Z jackdaniel: that is – something references this symbol
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2017-02-01T21:03:19Z phoe: haha
2017-02-01T21:03:20Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/d_type.htm
2017-02-01T21:03:26Z phoe: this example blows up on modern SBCL
2017-02-01T21:03:38Z Bike: which?
2017-02-01T21:03:56Z phoe: the FROB one
2017-02-01T21:04:02Z phoe: beginning with defvar *one-array*
2017-02-01T21:04:10Z sjl_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-02-01T21:04:12Z phoe: ending with frob *one-array*
2017-02-01T21:04:40Z phoe: but yeah, (typep 31 '(signed-byte 5)) ;=> NIL
2017-02-01T21:04:45Z phoe: and they're explicitly setfing 31 there
2017-02-01T21:05:22Z phoe: so this looks like the specification error to me
2017-02-01T21:05:28Z phoe: s/the/a/
2017-02-01T21:05:37Z Bike: yeah, that's messed up.
2017-02-01T21:05:48Z Bike: i mean the main point might be the equivalent definition
2017-02-01T21:05:51Z phoe: perhaps they meant unsigned byte here or something.
2017-02-01T21:05:57Z phoe: uh, yeah
2017-02-01T21:05:58Z phoe: sure
2017-02-01T21:06:10Z phoe: but I'd expect *incorrect* definitions to be marked as errors
2017-02-01T21:06:11Z Bike: 127 isn't an ub5
2017-02-01T21:06:15Z phoe: like they are in other parts of the spec.
2017-02-01T21:06:23Z Bike: yep. messed up
2017-02-01T21:06:35Z phoe: or at least, uh
2017-02-01T21:06:47Z phoe: "don't expect this to work, we only want to show--
2017-02-01T21:06:50Z phoe: wait, what the fuck
2017-02-01T21:07:00Z phoe: they ought not to show anything on code that doesn't work
2017-02-01T21:07:03Z phoe: because it doesn't work
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2017-02-01T21:13:16Z Bike: well, change those fives to eights and be done with it
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2017-02-01T21:17:03Z phoe: http://localhost/~phoe/clus/doku.php?id=cl:declarations:type
2017-02-01T21:17:17Z phoe: It looks like the two #'FROB calls are completely unnecessary there
2017-02-01T21:17:26Z Bike: you linked localhost again
2017-02-01T21:17:26Z phoe: and can be removed if we want to focus on the fdefinition
2017-02-01T21:17:29Z phoe: ...fuck
2017-02-01T21:17:41Z Bike: it could be worse, you could be linking file:///
2017-02-01T21:17:53Z phoe: I need to teach minion to autocorrect me when I do that
2017-02-01T21:17:57Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:declarations:type
2017-02-01T21:18:32Z phoe: who should I bother for modifying minion?
2017-02-01T21:18:43Z Bike: so are the array definitions. it's just demonstrating using the functions, i guess.
2017-02-01T21:18:49Z phoe: or any other channel bot who could autocorrect my localhost?
2017-02-01T21:19:02Z Bike: by the way, this all looks very nice and i'm glad you're working on it. i assume the broken issue markup at the bottom will be fixed, eheh
2017-02-01T21:19:06Z phoe: Bike: it's a poor demonstration.
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2017-02-01T21:19:20Z phoe: Bike: yeah, that's not markup.
2017-02-01T21:19:31Z phoe: These are links to X3J13 issues that were left in their TeX form.
2017-02-01T21:19:43Z phoe: So are links to specification chapters.
2017-02-01T21:20:03Z phoe: These will be parsed once I finish working on the dictionaries, as I consider to be more important from the practical point of view.
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2017-02-01T21:26:03Z phoe: Bike: https://i.imgtc.com/ISq4V39.png I'm slowly getting this even nicer.
2017-02-01T21:26:12Z phoe: The return values need to get some love after how they've been treated in the CLHS.
2017-02-01T21:26:32Z Bike: i'm not sure if you need them from defuns, though...
2017-02-01T21:27:29Z phoe: Bike: I know, right?
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2017-02-01T21:27:46Z phoe: I've actually been removing them from DEFUNs, DEFMACROs, DEFVARs, DEFPARAMETERs...
2017-02-01T21:28:03Z phoe: And then I thought, well, sure. What about the chapter *about* DEFUNs?
2017-02-01T21:28:25Z phoe: What if people stare at this and pick up the idea these macros don't return anything useful?
2017-02-01T21:28:55Z phoe: I mean, they're meant to appear at top level in most cases and top level doesn't do anything with variables.
2017-02-01T21:28:58Z phoe: But what about the REPL?
2017-02-01T21:29:01Z phoe: (defun foo () 3)
2017-02-01T21:29:03Z phoe: (trace *)
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2017-02-01T21:29:33Z phoe: ...wait, this doesn't work.
2017-02-01T21:29:37Z phoe: trace is a macro.
2017-02-01T21:29:54Z phoe: But you get the idea.
2017-02-01T21:30:02Z phoe: DEFUN returns a symbol, and you can work on that symbol.
2017-02-01T21:30:09Z Bike: i meant like, with human understanding, yes. they're examples, after all.
2017-02-01T21:30:14Z phoe: That's why I actually want to backtrack and put the return values back in place.
2017-02-01T21:30:25Z phoe: in their new, shiny blue skin.~
2017-02-01T21:30:28Z Bike: incidentally, how do you show those "returns x OR y" things
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2017-02-01T21:30:53Z phoe: I want to go like
2017-02-01T21:30:53Z phoe: 3
2017-02-01T21:30:57Z phoe: <i>or</i> 5
2017-02-01T21:31:01Z phoe: <i>or</i> 13
2017-02-01T21:31:42Z phoe: So far it's been more or less like that, just without fancy CSS.
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2017-02-01T21:31:45Z Bike: reasonable
2017-02-01T21:32:21Z phoe: Which *will* catch people's attention, since return values are almost never multiline.
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2017-02-01T21:32:36Z phoe: Unless they're multiple, at which point I still wonder whether I should make them multiline or comma-separated.
2017-02-01T21:33:05Z phoe: Multiline is more REPL-like and I can live with few functions like DECODE-UNIVERSAL-TIME having huge return blocks.
2017-02-01T21:33:21Z phoe: It will give me space to insert things like ;; this is the year value
2017-02-01T21:33:28Z phoe: s/;;/;/
2017-02-01T21:35:01Z phoe: Like - I want output blocks to be naturally multiline, because, eh, that's how ~% in format works
2017-02-01T21:35:13Z phoe: but return blocks - these should be multiline only when some important stuff is happening
2017-02-01T21:35:31Z phoe: either some "or" stuff going on, or multiple values, or a particularly huge block of Lisp being output
2017-02-01T21:35:37Z phoe: s/output/returned/
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2017-02-01T21:46:49Z phoe: Bike: I'm also working on an ELS paper about the CLUS. I'll link its draft to you tomorrow, after I apply my last reviewer's patches.
2017-02-01T21:46:58Z phoe: I mean - if you're up for reading it.
2017-02-01T21:47:48Z Bike: sure
2017-02-01T21:47:58Z Baggers: phoe: thanks for keeping going on the ultraspec. It's a bitch of a task but really cool that you're on it
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2017-02-01T21:50:06Z phoe: Baggers:
2017-02-01T21:50:16Z phoe: blah, a wild Enter appeared
2017-02-01T21:50:21Z Baggers: hehe
2017-02-01T21:50:48Z phoe: Baggers: yah, no problem. I want to get the spec imported and then I'll ask #lisp for a general cleanup and overhaul of all bugs I've missed.
2017-02-01T21:51:00Z phoe: the glossary links are a major PITA with all of the English cases.
2017-02-01T21:51:16Z phoe: apply, applied, Applies, applying
2017-02-01T21:51:40Z phoe: multiply this by the amount of verbs/nouns/adjectives in the glossary
2017-02-01T21:51:50Z Baggers: jeez yeah, I hadnt though about that
2017-02-01T21:51:56Z phoe: and all of this stuff needs to link into exactly one page.
2017-02-01T21:52:11Z phoe: luckily, once I import the glossary, all the missing links will simply stick out as red
2017-02-01T21:52:21Z phoe: and will therefore be fixable.
2017-02-01T21:52:53Z phoe: another PITA is actually making the examples hyperlinked, something CLHS did not do.
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2017-02-01T21:53:36Z phoe: the worst thing so far:
2017-02-01T21:53:50Z phoe: remember when to link to CL:Symbols:lambda and when to CL:Macros:lambda
2017-02-01T21:54:15Z phoe: I could just link everything to one or the other, but I said to myself, hell no, time to let my OCD go crazy on that
2017-02-01T21:54:53Z phoe: since in (lambda ...), lambda is from CL:Macros, and in #'(lambda ...), lambda is from CL:Symbols
2017-02-01T21:55:00Z Baggers: :| ick. Also hyperlinked examples sounds great, and hopefully (one day) we can add better examples too, some of them are a bit intense for beginners.
2017-02-01T21:55:03Z phoe: oh goodness, CLUS is as fun as it is exhausting.
2017-02-01T21:55:19Z Baggers: phoe: well im glad you're having some fun though
2017-02-01T21:55:23Z phoe: replacing^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hfixing the examples is another story.
2017-02-01T21:55:33Z phoe: Some of them are simply wrong.
2017-02-01T21:55:36Z phoe: Some of them suck.
2017-02-01T21:55:38Z phoe: Some are fine.
2017-02-01T21:55:40Z phoe: Some are outdated.
2017-02-01T21:55:45Z phoe: Some are horribly abstract.
2017-02-01T21:55:50Z phoe: Some are fun.
2017-02-01T21:56:01Z Xach: phoe: cltl2's examples are even more fun
2017-02-01T21:56:04Z phoe: And the examples are actually the part that I expect to change the most.
2017-02-01T21:56:08Z phoe: Xach: oh gods no
2017-02-01T21:59:47Z phoe: I need to get over a little bit of family shit that keeps me unable to work for the time being and I'll get back on track with parsing the standard.
2017-02-01T21:59:55Z phoe: For now - it's a small pause.
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2017-02-01T22:00:21Z antoszka: phoe: replace your many ^Hs with a single ^W :)
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2017-02-01T22:01:21Z phoe: antoszka: I'm too used to backspace, but thanks
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2017-02-01T22:07:42Z jasom: phoe: best of luck with the family stuff.
2017-02-01T22:08:02Z phoe: jasom: thanks.
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2017-02-01T22:16:39Z varjag: any de-facto standard implementation for ring buffers out there?
2017-02-01T22:16:48Z varjag: before i reinvent the wheel
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2017-02-01T22:17:41Z phoe: varjag: circular list?
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2017-02-01T22:29:49Z varjag: phoe: right.. i want seeks and resizing though, so a bit more bookkeeping
2017-02-01T22:30:08Z varjag: not a big deal still, just wondered if there's cl-ringbuffer or something everyone already uses
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2017-02-01T22:32:31Z shka: varjag: flexichain can be used as circular queue, i guess
2017-02-01T22:32:50Z phoe: varjag: https://github.com/e-user/cl-heredoc/blob/master/src/ring-buffer.lisp
2017-02-01T22:32:53Z phoe: that's what google tells me
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2017-02-01T22:34:26Z shka: varjag: i would try to use rotate gf in flexichain
2017-02-01T22:34:33Z shka: usually it works rather well
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2017-02-01T22:36:05Z varjag: phoe: right seen that, it's a part of a bigger project though
2017-02-01T22:36:08Z varjag: but thanks
2017-02-01T22:36:22Z varjag: shka: thanks will have a look into that
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2017-02-01T22:37:38Z phoe: Night, #parentheses
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2017-02-01T22:38:11Z varjag: nite
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2017-02-01T22:39:55Z azrazalea feels like they should set up ( as a join message and ) as a leave message.
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2017-02-01T22:42:27Z phoe: azrazalea: that wouldn't be proper structure
2017-02-01T22:42:32Z phoe: I don't want to close another person's parens
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2017-02-01T22:42:53Z phoe: if I came online and then foo-guy came online, I'd need for foo-guy to go offline before I was able to close my paren
2017-02-01T22:43:00Z phoe: otherwise I'd close his paren for him and kick him out
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2017-02-01T22:43:16Z phoe: that's a non-trivial issue there that you're picking, parentheses create structure
2017-02-01T22:43:17Z azrazalea: phoe: That is true. Quite unfortunate.
2017-02-01T22:44:08Z phoe: we'd need to (pushnew 'phoe *online*) or something like that
2017-02-01T22:44:13Z phoe: but that's becoming complicated
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2017-02-01T22:45:01Z azrazalea: indeed. Didn't mean to keep you up in any case :)
2017-02-01T22:45:30Z phoe: no no
2017-02-01T22:45:33Z phoe: you reminded me of a thing
2017-02-01T22:45:39Z phoe: who is the owner of minion?
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2017-02-01T23:02:32Z quadresce: So, I did some research on documentation generators, and it seems like half of them are broken in some way, and the other half are incomplete, and the other half [sic] are just sort of barebones generators. Does anyone have some input on this?
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2017-02-01T23:05:33Z azrazalea: quadresce: That sounds like the state of lisp libraries in general to me, unfortunately. I don't use any documentation gen so can't help with your issue specifically.
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2017-02-01T23:06:10Z azrazalea: phoe: It appears to at least have a common-lisp.net addr/cloak. So maybe someone affiliated with them?
2017-02-01T23:06:35Z quadresce: azrazalea, There are a lot of great, high quality Lisp libraries!
2017-02-01T23:07:08Z azrazalea: quadresce: At least in my anecdotal experience, there are in niche areas and then elsewhere it is as you describe. Happy to be shown wrong though :)
2017-02-01T23:08:30Z pjb: quadresce: now, you can take all the existing libraries, make an analysis of all their features, synthesize a englobing specification adding all the features you want, implement it, and publish it.
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2017-02-01T23:10:21Z quadresce: yes I could, but I will not. Fortunately, this was a pretty good guide: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/lisp-document-generation-apps
2017-02-01T23:11:48Z quadresce: I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of a great documentation ecosystem is the reason why many newcomers don't get much done.
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2017-02-01T23:13:53Z quadresce: (A proper documentation system would probably need to have the ability to put in extra material that extends beyond simple API documentation extracted from docstrings. This is pretty common in Python with Sphinx. And---of course---people would actually need to *write* the documentation.)
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2017-02-01T23:15:18Z fe[nl]ix: Sphinx is probably the best thing around
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2017-02-01T23:15:39Z fe[nl]ix: but it's a bit difficult to install
2017-02-01T23:15:43Z quadresce: Yes.
2017-02-01T23:16:54Z jasom: minion: memo for varjag: I believe lparallel fixed-capacity queues are implemented as ring buffers
2017-02-01T23:16:55Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell varjag when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-02-01T23:25:16Z phoe: quadresce: haha, exactly what I want to achieve with CLUS one day.
2017-02-01T23:25:26Z phoe: a good, hyperlinked repository of CL documentation.
2017-02-01T23:25:39Z phoe goes back to sleep
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2017-02-01T23:26:00Z quadresce: What is CLUS?
2017-02-01T23:26:10Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php
2017-02-01T23:26:23Z phoe: this little thing I've been doing for a moment
2017-02-01T23:26:44Z quadresce: neat
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2017-02-01T23:44:02Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: re sphinx; "a bit difficult to install" just like the sun is "a bit bright"; I'm maintaining an open-source project that uses sphinx for documentation and I've successfully built the manual once.
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2017-02-01T23:45:07Z fe[nl]ix: yes
2017-02-01T23:45:14Z fe[nl]ix: does not surprise me
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2017-02-01T23:45:34Z jasom: oh wait, my mistake, it wasn't sphinx but dexy; I had those mixed up in my head for some reason
2017-02-01T23:45:46Z fe[nl]ix: that said, I'm sick of 7% done Lisp-only doc systems
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2017-02-01T23:46:09Z fe[nl]ix: calling them half-done is too much of a praise
2017-02-01T23:46:44Z jasom: The first 90% of the project takes 90% of the work and the last 10% takes 90% of the work :)
2017-02-01T23:50:54Z jasom: cldoc I would put at half-done; it's a bit idiosyncratic, but has all the basic features one needs
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2017-02-02T00:27:58Z PuercoPop: quadresce: I think CommonDoc has good foundations but you would still have to role your own full fledged generator, unless you are fine with codex (which is unlikely). Sabra's piece doesn't mention Geneva, which I haven't looked into very much but seems like it could be a good choice. There is only russell/sphinxcontrib-cldomain, but last time I checked the (python) code it was needlessly complex imho.
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2017-02-02T00:44:16Z quadresce: PuercoPop, Thanks for the pointers.
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2017-02-02T05:06:41Z Xach: there is some mcclim problem today :~(
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2017-02-02T05:44:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-02T05:49:13Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2017-02-02T06:21:45Z jackdaniel: Xach: what kind of problem?
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2017-02-02T08:40:57Z _raynold_: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-02-02T10:15:30Z Cymew: Anyone know what kind of Flavors it is that ACL is implementing? Is it the original taste, or the New one?
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2017-02-02T10:21:19Z malice`: hi lal
2017-02-02T10:21:21Z malice`: all*
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2017-02-02T10:29:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to specify the package ASDF loads a file in?
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2017-02-02T10:32:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I.e. I'm working on converting an oldish project to ASDF and I'm trying to avoid putting an in-package into each file.
2017-02-02T10:32:54Z jackdaniel: file-local-variables may help with that
2017-02-02T10:33:22Z jackdaniel: scratch that
2017-02-02T10:34:50Z jackdaniel: you need to define two around methods
2017-02-02T10:34:51Z jackdaniel: (defmethod asdf:perform :around ((operation asdf:load-op) (file asdf:cl-source-file)) …)
2017-02-02T10:34:55Z jackdaniel: (defmethod asdf:perform :around ((operation asdf:compile-op) (file asdf:cl-source-file) …)
2017-02-02T10:35:08Z jackdaniel: and set *package* in them
2017-02-02T10:35:34Z jackdaniel: if you know what you are doing
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2017-02-02T10:39:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: Thanks.
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2017-02-02T10:42:31Z beach: fiddlerwoaroof: It is well worth putting those forms in there.  I think it could be done with a relatively simple Emacs keyboard macro.
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2017-02-02T11:32:18Z Xach: jackdaniel: hmm, can't reproduce on each system
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2017-02-02T11:37:02Z Xach: jackdaniel: on one computer I'm getting an error in Drei, but not on another.
2017-02-02T11:37:29Z Xach: related to a CLIM:VIEW method
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2017-02-02T12:01:48Z Xach: aha
2017-02-02T12:01:56Z Xach: i am on different branches
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2017-02-02T12:03:37Z Xach: ok, success at failure when using master
2017-02-02T12:04:14Z Xach: jackdaniel (and beach): http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-02-02/failure-report/mcclim.html#mcclim
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2017-02-02T12:05:14Z jackdaniel: and what was the branch you were on where it worked?
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2017-02-02T12:06:20Z Xach: develop
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2017-02-02T12:08:48Z jackdaniel: OK, I've reverted the last merge
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2017-02-02T12:35:41Z Xach: 900% better
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2017-02-02T12:36:47Z jackdaniel: thanks, I have had apparently different McCLIM in local-projects when testing this PR
2017-02-02T12:37:24Z Xach: what tangled branches we merge
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2017-02-02T13:12:05Z Xach: Phew. I can now get a quicklisp dist build environment up and running on debian by running a shell script that sets everything up, including fetching and installing the one-off libraries that aren't in debian.
2017-02-02T13:13:15Z phoe_: <3
2017-02-02T13:13:41Z Xach: What took days is now a matter of minutes. The debian "checkinstall" program really made things much, much easier on me.
2017-02-02T13:13:58Z jackdaniel: Xach: congrats :)
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2017-02-02T13:15:24Z phoe_: This is awesome news
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2017-02-02T13:17:40Z Cymew: Nice tool.
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2017-02-02T13:36:13Z Xach: It is in the quicklisp-controller repo on github. Probably still not much use to anyone but me, but progress
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2017-02-02T13:44:50Z phoe_: Xach: what is the state of Quicklisp mirrors?
2017-02-02T13:45:03Z phoe_: Is there a procedure of creating them?
2017-02-02T13:45:50Z phoe_: What would happen to Quicklisp users if the main Quicklisp website just disappeared from the web altogether and how easy would it be to make quicklisp clients work again with a mirror?
2017-02-02T13:46:50Z jackdaniel: yes, you just need to install a distribution
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2017-02-02T13:47:24Z phoe_: jackdaniel: <3
2017-02-02T13:47:28Z phoe_: which one is it?
2017-02-02T13:47:36Z jackdaniel: what which one is it?
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2017-02-02T13:48:05Z phoe_: the distribution
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2017-02-02T13:48:17Z jackdaniel: ql-dist
2017-02-02T13:48:27Z phoe_: so basically (ql:quickload :ql-dist)
2017-02-02T13:48:34Z phoe_: and I'm getting a mirror.
2017-02-02T13:48:39Z phoe_: right?
2017-02-02T13:48:40Z jackdaniel: no
2017-02-02T13:49:24Z jackdaniel: see that – it has some flaws but works with enough effort https://github.com/orivej/quickdist
2017-02-02T13:49:40Z jackdaniel: the main problem with creating distribution is parsing the dependencies
2017-02-02T13:50:20Z phoe_: I see
2017-02-02T13:50:43Z phoe_: that's not exactly what I'm looking for here.
2017-02-02T13:51:12Z Xach: phoe_: It would not be too hard for someone to set up a mirror and have everything still work.
2017-02-02T13:51:19Z Xach: Even under different hostnames.
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2017-02-02T13:53:17Z phoe_: Xach: how much does Quicklisp weigh?\
2017-02-02T13:54:26Z Xach: Hmm, I recently checked...I believe all projects, from all time, are less than a gigabyte.
2017-02-02T13:55:20Z shka: sooo i can have it on pendrive
2017-02-02T13:55:29Z shka: it is kinda cool
2017-02-02T13:55:41Z phoe_: ...
2017-02-02T13:55:44Z phoe_: That's tiny.
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2017-02-02T13:55:51Z phoe_: Literally asking to be mirrored.
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2017-02-02T13:56:20Z phoe_: Xach: does Quicklisp serve everything through HTTP?
2017-02-02T13:56:46Z Xach: phoe_: both http and https
2017-02-02T13:56:53Z phoe_: Good.
2017-02-02T13:56:56Z Xach: phoe_: the quicklisp client software can only use HTTPS at this time
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2017-02-02T13:57:20Z Xach: phoe_: but I am working on signing and checksum verification this week, so even via http there is some measure of integrity
2017-02-02T13:57:48Z Xach: i was disappointed to learn that cl+ssl does not do any validation or verification of certificates under normal configuration :(
2017-02-02T13:57:57Z phoe_: So in theory, I could just take a mirror of everything on Quicklisp's server and put it on some random host on the network, right?
2017-02-02T13:58:08Z dlowe: Xach: that is actually completely in line with other libraries of its kind.
2017-02-02T13:58:27Z Xach: dlowe: Still disappointing.
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2017-02-02T13:58:48Z dlowe: Validation is outside the scope of the SSL specification
2017-02-02T13:58:55Z Xach: phoe_: you could. the URLs would be wrong - you could fix that by updating the indexes, or by having the client rewrite URLs dynamically
2017-02-02T13:59:23Z phoe_: Xach: do your URLs contain any ?s?
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2017-02-02T13:59:30Z Xach: phoe_: no.
2017-02-02T13:59:30Z phoe_: Or just /foo/bar/baz/quux ?
2017-02-02T13:59:39Z phoe_: Hah. Sounds very good.
2017-02-02T13:59:41Z Xach: phoe_: they are http://beta.quicklisp.org/blah/blah/software.tgz
2017-02-02T13:59:46Z phoe_: Very, very good.
2017-02-02T13:59:55Z phoe_: Why would they be wrong then?
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2017-02-02T14:00:12Z phoe_: I'll go like http://random.phoe.server/blah/blah.software.tgz then.
2017-02-02T14:00:15Z Xach: phoe_: if you fetch the files and put them on some random host, they will not be on beta.quicklisp.org
2017-02-02T14:00:21Z Xach: phoe_: so you would have to rewrite those urls at some stage
2017-02-02T14:00:22Z phoe_: http://random.phoe.server/blah/blah/software.tgz
2017-02-02T14:00:41Z phoe_: Xach: then I expect quicklisp to have some sort of variable which tells it which mirror it should use.
2017-02-02T14:00:50Z Xach: i should make it even easier to do that, so people who use quicklisp for CI don't keep hitting my AWS billing
2017-02-02T14:01:03Z Xach: phoe_: that is not a feature yet.
2017-02-02T14:01:07Z phoe_: So I can (setf quicklisp:*current-mirror* "http://random.phoe.server/")
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2017-02-02T14:01:19Z phoe_: Xach: the moment you make it, I'll make a Quicklisp mirror.
2017-02-02T14:03:16Z phoe_: If you point me to your sources, I could even try making a pull request implementing this.
2017-02-02T14:03:36Z Xach: phoe_: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/ has the client software.
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2017-02-02T14:03:50Z phoe_: Very good.
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2017-02-02T14:04:00Z Xach: I don't know if now is a good time. I intend to make a lot of changes this month.
2017-02-02T14:04:52Z phoe_: (defparameter *client-base-url* "http://beta.quicklisp.org/")
2017-02-02T14:05:21Z phoe_: quicklisp/setup.lisp:  "http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/quicklisp.txt")
2017-02-02T14:05:32Z phoe_: these are the only two occurrences of the URL, it seems
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2017-02-02T14:15:09Z jdz: phoe_: that's a string, not a URL :)
2017-02-02T14:15:38Z phoe_: jdz: a string containing a URL
2017-02-02T14:15:55Z jdz: More like, yes.
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2017-02-02T14:40:36Z Cymew is really looking forward to the new work being done on quicklisp
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2017-02-02T14:45:57Z phoe_: Me too!
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2017-02-02T14:51:02Z niva is now known as impaktor_
2017-02-02T14:52:23Z impaktor_: I need some help. I've been trying to port the minimal C-code example of GSL line fitting, to CL. I look up what each gsl-function is in CL, but when I do:
2017-02-02T14:52:24Z impaktor_: (gsl:gsl-lookup "gsl_multimin_fminimizer_set")
2017-02-02T14:52:30Z impaktor_: I get:
2017-02-02T14:52:31Z impaktor_: (REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE GSLL:MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F)
2017-02-02T14:52:45Z impaktor_: Which I can't understand how to use, or how to get documentation for.
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2017-02-02T14:54:44Z shka: impaktor_: maybe show your code?
2017-02-02T14:54:47Z phoe_: ^
2017-02-02T14:55:00Z impaktor_: https://github.com/impaktor/gsll-fit
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2017-02-02T14:55:10Z impaktor_ was prepared!
2017-02-02T14:55:13Z impaktor_: :)
2017-02-02T14:55:57Z impaktor_: (also, yes, I'm a CL beginner).
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2017-02-02T14:56:10Z shka: so first of
2017-02-02T14:56:23Z shka: your let bindings have wrong syntax
2017-02-02T14:56:27Z shka: it should have been
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2017-02-02T14:56:46Z shka: (let ((fit (GSLL:MAKE-MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F GSLL:+SIMPLEX-NELDER-MEAD-ON2+ +dimensions+))))
2017-02-02T14:56:49Z shka: secondly
2017-02-02T14:56:59Z shka: GSLL:MAKE-MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F
2017-02-02T14:57:20Z shka: i assume this should go from gsll library, right?
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2017-02-02T14:57:50Z impaktor_: isn't that what the GSLL: stuff is for?
2017-02-02T14:58:04Z impaktor_: i.e. take it from gsll library.
2017-02-02T14:58:04Z shka: do yourself a favor and use quicklisp for system loading
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2017-02-02T14:58:11Z impaktor_: shka: I do.
2017-02-02T14:58:15Z shka: it makes life waaaay easier
2017-02-02T14:58:15Z impaktor_: (I think)
2017-02-02T14:58:46Z shka: right
2017-02-02T14:59:05Z impaktor_: shka: either way, I haven't gotten that far, at the moment, I have no idea how to use these lisp functions, as there is no documentation, and I don't know how to help myself.
2017-02-02T14:59:19Z shka: no docs?
2017-02-02T14:59:22Z shka: let me check
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2017-02-02T15:00:09Z Cymew is reminded of an earlier conversation about newbies and lack of documentation
2017-02-02T15:00:10Z impaktor_: shka: At best I can get the Lisp-name of the C-function, type it in, and eldoc tells me what arguments it takes.
2017-02-02T15:00:24Z shka: sure, sure
2017-02-02T15:00:37Z impaktor_: ...and try to guess what those parameters should be.
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2017-02-02T15:02:31Z shka: i don't use gsll myself, but GSLL website suggest few ways to get documentation
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2017-02-02T15:03:29Z impaktor_: shka: that's the way I do it.
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2017-02-02T15:04:37Z shka: ok, i can call gsl:make-multi-bullshit function here
2017-02-02T15:04:52Z shka: although i have gsll 2 so library does not work anyway ;-)
2017-02-02T15:05:07Z shka: i think that you should correct your let form to start of
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2017-02-02T15:05:36Z impaktor_: Also tried to find the example code he mentions that should be available in the source. The stuff I found is 100% unreadable to me. The functions I want to see example usage of aren't used in those examples. I think stuff is hidden under many layers of macros or something.
2017-02-02T15:05:49Z impaktor_: shka: Sounds interesting!
2017-02-02T15:06:29Z impaktor_: shka: yeah, the let, was just there to tell me the syntax of that function. (thus I was distracted enough to get syntax of let itself wrong :/ )
2017-02-02T15:06:41Z impaktor_: I've fixed the let.
2017-02-02T15:07:22Z impaktor_: eldoc tells me: (GSLL:MAKE-MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F type dimension &optional function initial step-size)
2017-02-02T15:07:34Z impaktor_: But I don't know/understand (REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE GSLL:MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F)
2017-02-02T15:07:45Z impaktor_: What that is, or how to use it.
2017-02-02T15:08:12Z shka: i think that you don't even need that
2017-02-02T15:08:16Z impaktor_: ...it was the output of when looking for the C-function (gsl:gsl-lookup "gsl_multimin_fminimizer_set")
2017-02-02T15:08:20Z shka: or it would be weird if you do
2017-02-02T15:08:26Z shka: give me a second ok?
2017-02-02T15:08:37Z impaktor_: Yeah
2017-02-02T15:09:21Z shka: yeah
2017-02-02T15:09:48Z shka: i THINK that REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE shouldn't be really needed here
2017-02-02T15:10:29Z shka: because how C lib works is that first you allocate your memory
2017-02-02T15:10:37Z shka: next, initialize actual struct
2017-02-02T15:10:46Z shka: you know, no constructors
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2017-02-02T15:11:20Z impaktor_: hmm, then who/where do I set the function to be minimzed?
2017-02-02T15:11:21Z shka: but GSLL:MAKE-MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F can already initialize your minimizer with function
2017-02-02T15:11:43Z shka: with GSLL:MAKE-MULTI-DIMENSIONAL-MINIMIZER-F ofc
2017-02-02T15:11:48Z shka: but let me take a look
2017-02-02T15:12:04Z shka: does it want callback or just ordinary lambda will cut it
2017-02-02T15:12:05Z impaktor_: ...the function is an optional argument, to that, seems a bit strange to me.
2017-02-02T15:12:15Z Cymew: Interfacing CL with another language is not the easiest part to start with...
2017-02-02T15:13:00Z impaktor_: shka: you mean the function I want to minimize? It's just a simple polynomial, for the example I'm working on.
2017-02-02T15:13:04Z shka: (TYPE DIMENSION &OPTIONAL (FUNCTION NIL SETTINGP)
2017-02-02T15:13:05Z shka:                 INITIAL STEP-SIZE (SCALARSP T))
2017-02-02T15:13:36Z shka: impaktor_: well, it is because you can set it later
2017-02-02T15:13:40Z shka: anyway
2017-02-02T15:13:42Z impaktor_: shka: what's this?
2017-02-02T15:13:49Z shka: here we have lambda list of your function
2017-02-02T15:14:01Z shka: kaa
2017-02-02T15:14:03Z shka: aka
2017-02-02T15:14:05Z shka: types
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2017-02-02T15:14:14Z impaktor_: You mean the one I want to minimize?
2017-02-02T15:14:24Z shka: no, one from gsll
2017-02-02T15:14:26Z shka: anyway
2017-02-02T15:14:46Z shka: it seems that your should simply pass lisp function here
2017-02-02T15:14:49Z shka: easy
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2017-02-02T15:15:08Z shka: impaktor_: where is exactly your polynomial defined in c code?
2017-02-02T15:15:12Z impaktor_: ah, that's the same output i get from eldoc.
2017-02-02T15:15:19Z impaktor_: top, I think.
2017-02-02T15:15:24Z shka: i see
2017-02-02T15:15:40Z shka: you c code won't compile :D
2017-02-02T15:15:41Z impaktor_: called: my_f
2017-02-02T15:15:46Z shka: ah, sorry
2017-02-02T15:15:49Z shka: it will
2017-02-02T15:16:00Z shka: anyway
2017-02-02T15:16:06Z impaktor_: minimum is x,y = 1,2
2017-02-02T15:16:25Z shka: you need to define lisp like you do in c
2017-02-02T15:16:40Z shka: it should accept two arguments
2017-02-02T15:17:11Z shka: second would be settingp
2017-02-02T15:17:17Z shka: let me check what the heck is that
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2017-02-02T15:18:21Z impaktor_: ...so this function "f" (line 9) doesn't take the correct input?: https://github.com/impaktor/gsll-fit/blob/master/leastsq.lisp
2017-02-02T15:18:45Z shka: aaah right :D
2017-02-02T15:18:48Z shka: sorry for that
2017-02-02T15:18:55Z shka: forgot about it
2017-02-02T15:18:57Z shka: anyway
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2017-02-02T15:19:08Z shka: pass it to make-multi
2017-02-02T15:19:28Z shka: also, note that fit is valid in just let form
2017-02-02T15:19:53Z shka: so you will need to put your code there
2017-02-02T15:20:41Z shka: i think your should be fine at this point
2017-02-02T15:21:16Z impaktor_: Yeah, I'll give it a try. (the one-line let was just temporary/work in progress)
2017-02-02T15:21:38Z shka: btw, do you know about practical common lisp?
2017-02-02T15:21:45Z impaktor_: shka: read it.
2017-02-02T15:21:52Z shka: good :-)
2017-02-02T15:22:09Z impaktor_: Very nice. Too bad there are no exercises. As there's no "hands on" in it.
2017-02-02T15:22:17Z shka: no?
2017-02-02T15:22:24Z impaktor_: Also read SICP ch 1-4, a few years ago.
2017-02-02T15:22:27Z shka: there are practical sections
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2017-02-02T15:22:52Z impaktor_: shka: really? I (re-)read one chapter not 2 hours ago, and none.
2017-02-02T15:23:17Z Cymew: You can type along with the procedures explained, though.
2017-02-02T15:23:23Z shka: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html
2017-02-02T15:23:25Z shka: really
2017-02-02T15:23:29Z Cymew: I know I did that first time I read it.
2017-02-02T15:23:30Z impaktor_: shka: also, sorry for being daft, but was my function "f" OK? I.e. two arguments, a var and param list.
2017-02-02T15:23:46Z shka: looks ok for me
2017-02-02T15:23:51Z impaktor_: OK, good.
2017-02-02T15:23:52Z shka: i dont know gsl at all, though
2017-02-02T15:24:10Z impaktor_: Right, that's the chapter I read.
2017-02-02T15:24:12Z impaktor_: this morning.
2017-02-02T15:24:33Z shka: well, it is step by step guide
2017-02-02T15:24:45Z shka: i think it is quite good
2017-02-02T15:25:02Z shka: maybe you will prefer land of lisp then
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2017-02-02T15:25:17Z Cymew: I love that one.
2017-02-02T15:25:23Z impaktor_: shka: that's the cartoon one?
2017-02-02T15:25:27Z shka: yes
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2017-02-02T15:25:38Z shka: it is actually good
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2017-02-02T15:25:49Z impaktor_: I try to limit my CL books. I have PCL, and Norvig's AI book.
2017-02-02T15:25:51Z shka: (believe it or not :D)
2017-02-02T15:26:03Z shka: ok
2017-02-02T15:26:19Z shka: Norvig's book is also great btw
2017-02-02T15:26:22Z impaktor_: ...and I've partially read Keene. (Note: I have not read the Norvig book, just have it, so many pages)
2017-02-02T15:26:32Z shka: i would not recommend it for starters but it is really good
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2017-02-02T15:27:34Z shka: anyway, perhaps someone else can assist you more, I can only figure out how gsll works in real time
2017-02-02T15:27:57Z impaktor_: Well, this has been good. I've had this code hang over me for months.
2017-02-02T15:28:03Z impaktor_: Procrastinated.
2017-02-02T15:28:09Z shka: heh :-)
2017-02-02T15:28:35Z impaktor_: And I only know of here and the GSLL mailing list, which is a bit dead.
2017-02-02T15:28:43Z shka: anyway, i can agree that starting up with C lib is a bit messy
2017-02-02T15:29:15Z shka: lisp semantics and C semantics are quite different
2017-02-02T15:29:15Z Cymew: At least he did not start with AMOP.
2017-02-02T15:30:03Z shka: heh
2017-02-02T15:30:37Z shka: impaktor_: well, open source: it is as alive as people using it
2017-02-02T15:30:37Z impaktor_: AMOP?
2017-02-02T15:30:48Z shka: art of metaobject protocol
2017-02-02T15:30:53Z impaktor_: Ah, OK!
2017-02-02T15:30:55Z Cymew: Very deep.
2017-02-02T15:31:01Z impaktor_: I took an online course by the author.
2017-02-02T15:31:06Z shka: :D
2017-02-02T15:31:06Z Cymew: Really? Cool.
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2017-02-02T15:31:08Z impaktor_: ...in Racket.
2017-02-02T15:31:11Z impaktor_: coursera.
2017-02-02T15:31:15Z impaktor_: I have all the videos.
2017-02-02T15:31:19Z shka: oh, ok
2017-02-02T15:31:22Z impaktor_: It was for noobs.
2017-02-02T15:31:30Z shka: Racket is kinda cool, though
2017-02-02T15:31:31Z Cymew: I've heard a lot of good stuff about coursera.
2017-02-02T15:31:32Z impaktor_: But he's really good teacher.
2017-02-02T15:32:06Z impaktor_: Cymew:I've taken many courses. Some excellent, some where I can only blame myself for loosing interest.
2017-02-02T15:32:29Z shka: ok, about procrastination: time for me to actually work ;-)
2017-02-02T15:32:41Z shka: good luck with your code
2017-02-02T15:32:42Z impaktor_: I mean, some courses have too easy to "cheat" circumvent the quizzes and tests.
2017-02-02T15:32:54Z impaktor_: shka: thanks, for the help!
2017-02-02T15:33:04Z shka: norvig had a nice talk about online courses
2017-02-02T15:33:36Z shka: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7btkPovGjA
2017-02-02T15:33:38Z shka: this one
2017-02-02T15:33:45Z shka: damn, i like this guy! :D
2017-02-02T15:33:46Z impaktor_ downloads it
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2017-02-02T15:35:32Z Cymew: My favourite talk by one of the Great Old Ones:
2017-02-02T15:35:33Z Cymew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ahvzDzKdB0
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2017-02-02T15:35:53Z Cymew: GLS on "Growing a Language"
2017-02-02T15:36:23Z impaktor_: Just watch all those original videos of Hal Abelson and Sussman from the 80s.
2017-02-02T15:36:37Z impaktor_: So many mustaches and mullets among the students.
2017-02-02T15:36:41Z Cymew: :D
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2017-02-02T16:07:25Z beach: I managed to get Second Climacs into a state where I can run the incremental parser for Common Lisp code as a result of normal interaction with the editor.  I wanted this so that I could finish the paper (specifically the section about performance) about the incremental parser before the Monday deadline.
2017-02-02T16:07:27Z beach: As it turns out, the example in the paper was incorrect in many ways, so I also updated that in the latest version.  If anyone wants to take a look, there is a PDF here: http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
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2017-02-02T16:11:26Z azrazalea: What tools for parsing/tokenizing a non-lisp language in common lisp (for the purposes of writing the language in common lisp) are out there right now? Looking to not start from scratch.
2017-02-02T16:11:55Z beach: azrazalea: Plenty of stuff.
2017-02-02T16:12:29Z beach: There are a few libraries for combinatory parsing.  I have used SMUG for instance.
2017-02-02T16:13:08Z beach: There are also libraries for traditional LALR parsing and for Earley parsing.
2017-02-02T16:17:36Z azrazalea: Another case of so many choices I have no idea what to choose heh
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2017-02-02T16:18:09Z beach: azrazalea: Combinator parsing is the easiest to use.
2017-02-02T16:18:18Z beach: azrazalea: But error reporting can be tough.
2017-02-02T16:18:57Z beach: azrazalea: I suggest you start with SMUG so that you can concentrate on other aspects such as the semantics.
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2017-02-02T16:19:44Z beach: azrazalea: That way, you get to the important part early.  Parsing is no longer a terribly important phase of language implementation in terms of performance, for instance.
2017-02-02T16:20:18Z azrazalea: beach: Sounds good, I'll focus on SMUG then. Thanks!
2017-02-02T16:22:06Z PuercoPop: azrazalea: https://github.com/rigetticomputing/alexa/
2017-02-02T16:22:39Z PuercoPop: azrazalea: there is also maxpc which is similar to smug, but comes with more built-in parsers
2017-02-02T16:23:00Z jackdaniel: I have found esrap a really good tool for that
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2017-02-02T16:28:22Z azrazalea: Got all your suggestions in an org doc and i'm going to take a look later. Thanks! I like that SMUG has a (comprehensive?) tutorial :).
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2017-02-02T18:07:08Z Xach: I wanted to tell Rodenbach :(
2017-02-02T18:07:40Z phoe: beach: congrats@
2017-02-02T18:07:41Z phoe: !
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2017-02-02T18:39:09Z phoe: Anyway.
2017-02-02T18:39:21Z phoe: Family shit^Wmatters solved. I will be going back to CLUS now.
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2017-02-02T19:04:52Z impaktor_: I suspect the init and step-size (Line 20-21) shouldn't be lists, not sure what though. https://github.com/impaktor/gsll-fit/blob/master/leastsq.lisp
2017-02-02T19:05:57Z impaktor_: I get that there is no applicable method for generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION GSLL::MPOINTER (3)> when called with arguments ((0.1 0.1)).
2017-02-02T19:06:34Z impaktor_: shka: (if/when you have time ^)
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2017-02-02T19:10:23Z shka: try that
2017-02-02T19:10:25Z shka: (describe 'MPOINTER)
2017-02-02T19:10:39Z shka: actually
2017-02-02T19:10:47Z shka: (describe 'gsll:MPOINTER)
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2017-02-02T19:11:31Z impaktor_: Hmm, seems not right.
2017-02-02T19:12:00Z impaktor_: this doesn't work either: (documentation #'gsll:MPOINTER 'function)
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2017-02-02T19:13:34Z Bike: searching for code using those functions shows only calls whethere initial and step-size are foreign arrays
2017-02-02T19:13:43Z shka: impaktor_: it seems to be simple reader for c pointer
2017-02-02T19:14:09Z shka: or not
2017-02-02T19:14:16Z shka: dunno man
2017-02-02T19:14:33Z shka: Bike is probably right
2017-02-02T19:14:42Z Bike: i mean, foreign arrays would be c pointers
2017-02-02T19:14:43Z shka: you don't need it here
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2017-02-02T19:15:10Z shka: anyway
2017-02-02T19:15:30Z impaktor_: Oh, right, I'm not using any of the GSL matrices / vectors.
2017-02-02T19:15:39Z impaktor_: Maybe it should be that.
2017-02-02T19:16:18Z impaktor_: Bike: how did you search? The grep the git repo of GSLL?
2017-02-02T19:16:28Z Bike: github code search
2017-02-02T19:16:52Z shka: impaktor_: well, docstring for make minimizer shows that it wants vector
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2017-02-02T19:17:14Z Bike: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/antik/antik/blob/master/optimize/multi-dim.lisp#L25 example
2017-02-02T19:17:17Z impaktor_: Oh, thanks; I'll give that a try.
2017-02-02T19:17:47Z shka: namely
2017-02-02T19:17:49Z shka: (step-size (grid:make-foreign-array 'double-float :dimensions ndim :initial-element 1.0d0)
2017-02-02T19:18:54Z impaktor_: Hmm, that code had an interesting loop construct for my problem.
2017-02-02T19:19:02Z impaktor_: Thanks!
2017-02-02T19:19:36Z impaktor_: shka: I don't mean to take up your time any more. Thanks for the help!
2017-02-02T19:19:55Z shka: impaktor_: don't worry, i enjoy attempting to help ;-)
2017-02-02T19:20:47Z shka: it is easier if i actually used library, though ;-)
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2017-02-02T19:36:43Z dmiles: i am making an apropos that lets you specify not just a substring but some regex.. mainly ^ and $  is what i needed.. what should this function be called?
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2017-02-02T19:37:56Z jurov: dmiles: malapropos :D
2017-02-02T19:38:05Z dmiles: i am asking because i doubt i am the only person who has witten this
2017-02-02T19:38:28Z shka: regepropos
2017-02-02T19:38:29Z shka: ;-)
2017-02-02T19:38:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: fuzzy-apropos
2017-02-02T19:38:35Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
2017-02-02T19:38:50Z shka: regeopos :D
2017-02-02T19:39:57Z fiddlerwoaroof:  beach: Yeah, I might just go ahead and add the in-package forms.  The problem is, the project I'm experimenting with (the Yale-Haskell compiler) implements a quasi-scheme environment (i.e. A Lisp-2 with some subset of the scheme standard library) and, consequently, expects every file to be loaded in a particular package.
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2017-02-02T19:40:39Z dmiles: thanks
2017-02-02T19:40:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Right now, I just want to make the scheme-ish environment ASDF loadable.
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2017-02-02T19:42:31Z dmiles: sometimes i am suprised there isnt  WITH-PACKAGE    (let ((*package* (find-package :foo))) ...)
2017-02-02T19:43:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: The real difficulty is figuring out how to convince asdf to load .scm files in the mumble-user package
2017-02-02T19:43:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/real difficulty/difficulty I'm having/
2017-02-02T19:43:30Z dmiles: or that LOAD doesnt have  aswitch that does:  (let ((*package* *package*)) ...)
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2017-02-02T19:44:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm going to try jackdaniel's suggestion above of an :around method on perform, but I think the "right way" to do it might be to figure out how to get ASDF to recognize a new sort of component
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2017-02-02T21:02:33Z PuercoPop: dmiles: apropos-regex? I'd like a apropos that does c-p-c. Apropos, sly already supports regular expressions in apropos
2017-02-02T21:03:43Z dmiles: i like that name.. it is based on being easy to remember
2017-02-02T21:04:02Z dmiles: i had named it symbol-grep .. nnot like so much
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2017-02-02T21:05:49Z mrottenkolber: Question regarding S-SQL/Postmodern: can anyone give examples on how to use :oder-by in a simple case like SELECT foo FROM bar WHERE baz ORDER BY foo DESC;
2017-02-02T21:06:02Z dmiles: i amde itas a webservice for a while :P  https://github.com/TeamSPoon/PrologMUD/blob/development/pack/logicmoo_nlu/prolog/e2c/subl-grep.lisp
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2017-02-02T21:10:15Z travv0: mrottenkolber: try (:select 'foo :from 'bar :where 'bax :order-by (:desc 'foo))
2017-02-02T21:11:18Z mrottenkolber: travv0: that's what I tried first but it fails to compile with "Keyword WHERE takes exactly one argument."
2017-02-02T21:11:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think :order-by has a function syntax
2017-02-02T21:11:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's something like (:order-by (:select ...) :foo)
2017-02-02T21:12:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: (:order-by (:select :* :from 'rss_item_store :where (:= :feed feed-id)) (:desc 'pub-date))
2017-02-02T21:13:31Z mrottenkolber: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks
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2017-02-02T21:14:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is one of the better references for postmodern: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples
2017-02-02T21:14:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/postmodern-examples/postmodern-o#order-by
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2017-02-02T21:37:06Z mrottenkolber: by the way, is there a canonical json library by now?
2017-02-02T21:41:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not really sure
2017-02-02T21:41:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I use yason 90% of the time
2017-02-02T21:42:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: There is this comparison of the various options: https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries
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2017-02-02T21:43:48Z mrottenkolber: I was looking for that link, thanks!
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2017-02-02T21:45:04Z mrottenkolber: jonathan looks like what I want
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2017-02-02T21:55:14Z travv0: I use jonathan, it works well for me
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2017-02-02T22:01:01Z _death: I didn't like its treatment of my go-to json lib (com.gigamonkeys.json)
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2017-02-02T23:01:52Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/YM2NTdx.png
2017-02-02T23:02:04Z phoe: I like where this is going
2017-02-02T23:02:23Z phoe: I also have a red block for all sorts of Lisp errors.
2017-02-02T23:03:30Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/4TnnvqB.png
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2017-02-02T23:12:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Working on a browser repl?
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2017-02-02T23:18:11Z azrazalea: fiddlerwoaroof: I think it is the examples for http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php
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2017-02-02T23:18:59Z azrazalea: Yeah, i see similar stuff when I click through it
2017-02-02T23:19:03Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: what azrazalea said
2017-02-02T23:19:21Z phoe: it's all localhost right now, but I'll push them up soon enough
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2017-02-02T23:19:46Z phoe: it would be *huge* if we actually could run the examples live in JSCL
2017-02-02T23:19:52Z phoe: ...but we need a complete JSCL first.
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2017-02-02T23:22:45Z PuercoPop: phoe: have you seen https://github.com/inaimathi/cl-notebook?
2017-02-02T23:22:54Z phoe: PuercoPop: no, looking at it now.
2017-02-02T23:23:50Z PuercoPop: You could probably expose any CL implementation if you limit the access of its syscalls + ulimit. There is a service that does that iirc
2017-02-02T23:24:19Z phoe: if I put it in a VM.
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2017-02-02T23:24:44Z phoe: or any other OS-level sandbox.
2017-02-02T23:25:02Z Xach: That's one reason I'm doing more in VirtualBox.
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2017-02-03T00:13:45Z phoe: "Should signal an error of type type-error if list is not a proper list or a dotted list."
2017-02-03T00:13:54Z phoe: ...is not a list?
2017-02-03T00:14:22Z phoe: clhs butlast
2017-02-03T00:14:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_butlas.htm
2017-02-03T00:15:28Z Bike: there's also circular lists
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2017-02-03T00:16:29Z Bike: which is the case in which butlast doesn't work, obvs
2017-02-03T00:17:44Z phoe: doesn't work? why?
2017-02-03T00:18:53Z Bike: um, because there's no "last n conses"?
2017-02-03T00:19:25Z phoe: oh wait
2017-02-03T00:19:27Z phoe: yes, I derped
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2017-02-03T00:34:00Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/CWbxwWm.png <- I like how the small pages look.
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2017-02-03T00:40:13Z mrottenkolber: phoe: looks good!
2017-02-03T00:42:16Z mrottenkolber: so, I need to sanitize HTML scraped from syndication feeds, I found cl-sanitize but it seems unmaintained, any advice?
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2017-02-03T00:45:40Z axion: There is nothing wrong with unmaintained software if it fits the job. Who knows, if you like it, you may want to maintain it yourself.
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2017-02-03T00:49:02Z phoe: haha
2017-02-03T00:49:03Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_char_u.htm
2017-02-03T00:49:08Z phoe: try the DOTIMES example
2017-02-03T00:49:14Z phoe: it does not return NIL on my sbcl
2017-02-03T00:49:36Z phoe: ...or ECL
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2017-02-03T00:50:06Z phoe: ...or CMUCL
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2017-02-03T00:51:41Z axion: That is just wrong
2017-02-03T00:52:31Z axion: I never realized how bad these examples are until recently when you started picking up work on CLUS again :)
2017-02-03T00:52:52Z phoe: axion: :D
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2017-02-03T00:54:27Z Bike: clhs 13.1.4.3.4
2017-02-03T00:54:28Z specbot: Case of Implementation-Defined Characters: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_adcd.htm
2017-02-03T00:54:35Z Bike: i think that means that dotimes should return nil
2017-02-03T00:54:47Z Bike: i mean, it won't, because it's the future and programmers have realized that script is more complicated
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2017-02-03T00:56:33Z phoe: Bike: then I have proof that SBCL, ECL and CMUCL are all non-conformant!!!1
2017-02-03T00:56:39Z Bike: my god
2017-02-03T00:56:50Z phoe: I mean, eh.
2017-02-03T00:56:55Z Bike: i mean, yeah, it's LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH SMALL LETTER Z WITH CARON in my sbcl
2017-02-03T00:57:07Z Bike: upcases to LATIN CAPITAL LETTER DZ WITH CARON, which downcases to LATIN SMALL LETTER DZ WITH CARON
2017-02-03T00:57:25Z Bike: i think unicode has some advisories about this stuff, but, whatever
2017-02-03T00:57:42Z phoe: therefore ANSI CL Standard is naturally Unicode non-conformant
2017-02-03T00:57:50Z phoe: CL and Unicode will never be compatible
2017-02-03T00:57:52Z phoe: Case solved
2017-02-03T00:57:54Z phoe goes home
2017-02-03T00:58:30Z phoe: but yeah, on each of the three implementations it's a different symbol.
2017-02-03T00:58:40Z phoe: ...I don't know about CMUCL exactly.
2017-02-03T00:58:45Z phoe: Lemme check.
2017-02-03T00:59:02Z Bike: http://unicode.org/faq/casemap_charprop.html#7a there we go
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2017-02-03T01:00:20Z phoe: on CMUCL it's micro sign upcasing to large Greek mu letter downcasing to small Greek mu letter
2017-02-03T01:00:55Z phoe: Unicode: "No, many of the individual character case mappings cannot be reversed."
2017-02-03T01:01:07Z phoe: ANSI CL: "Such definitions must always be done in pairs---one uppercase character in one-to-one correspondence with one lowercase character."
2017-02-03T01:01:48Z phoe: this deserves a pretty huge editor's note on the character concepts page.
2017-02-03T01:03:01Z phoe: haha
2017-02-03T01:03:10Z Bike: "note: actually this is all bullshit"
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2017-02-03T01:03:48Z phoe: I never realized in how many unique ways the standard is broken until I got to edit it
2017-02-03T01:04:41Z Bike: that happens.
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2017-02-03T01:05:00Z phoe: Yes, I know.
2017-02-03T01:05:31Z phoe: It's pretty amazing to know that I can fix some of these things and annotate the rest.
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2017-02-03T01:13:18Z mrottenkolber: phoe: sounds almost like you will end up updating the standard :P
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2017-02-03T01:19:06Z phoe: mrottenkolber: editing it.
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2017-02-03T01:19:48Z mrottenkolber: phoe: what did you base off on?
2017-02-03T01:19:56Z mrottenkolber: the draft standard, hyperspec?
2017-02-03T01:20:02Z phoe: draft.
2017-02-03T01:20:07Z mrottenkolber: good choice
2017-02-03T01:20:28Z aeth: wait
2017-02-03T01:20:42Z aeth: "Latin capital letter D with small letter z with caron" is a letter
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2017-02-03T01:21:18Z aeth: wow
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2017-02-03T01:21:59Z aeth: just (make-string 1 :initial-element (that-do-times-from-the-hyperspec)) in SBCL to see what it looks like, btw
2017-02-03T01:22:25Z Bike: so it goes Dž to DŽ to dž
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2017-02-03T01:26:27Z aeth: phoe, Bike, axion: Here's all of them in SBCL. http://paste.lisp.org/+78TF
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2017-02-03T01:30:27Z aeth: and I ran it on ECL: http://paste.lisp.org/+78TF/1
2017-02-03T01:31:59Z aeth: (I think returning all of them as a string is more useful than returning the first.)
2017-02-03T01:32:23Z PuercoPop wonders if the the new github tags will improve project discoverability
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2017-02-03T01:35:41Z aeth: PuercoPop: It doesn't help that they're one word, so e.g. for "game engine" some will be "game" and "engine" and some will be "game-engine" and some will have both (or maybe just "game"!)
2017-02-03T01:36:17Z aeth: I don't think tags will help, though, because there are just so many projects on github.
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2017-02-03T01:39:38Z aeth: Imo tags would help more on something like quicklisp because it's (1) much smaller and (2) all within one ecosystem and (3) part of a package system so there's no barrier to trying something once you find it.
2017-02-03T01:42:55Z aeth: (And, yes, you can probably search by tags *and* filter by language, but not everything's on Github and not everything on Github is ready for public usage, unlike a language-specific package manager.)
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2017-02-03T03:16:13Z PuercoPop: aeth: yeah, there is no way to for users to see 'related' tags so they may attempt to coaslece. Still it seems like a good initiative
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2017-02-03T03:24:09Z aeth: PuercoPop: I think generally the more useful tag systems just have a fixed number of tags, which probably wouldn't help with github because there's just so much on there
2017-02-03T03:24:36Z aeth: i.e. instead of just arbitrarily entering whatever, separated by space (which is what github's system looks like, at least) there are some fixed categories
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2017-02-03T03:39:41Z PuercoPop: aeth: to some degree a good tag suggestion can alleviate the situation
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2017-02-03T03:40:34Z axion: github does have some heuristics that make the feature more acceptable and less of a chore to categorize
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2017-02-03T04:01:05Z drmeister: phoe: Are you online?
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2017-02-03T04:02:23Z drmeister: I wanted to ask you and beach about satiation and this idea about creating regular functions for bootstrapping generic functions.
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2017-02-03T04:51:42Z drmeister: Because satiation blows up.
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2017-02-03T04:57:28Z drmeister: (print-object ((object standard-object) (s stream))  has 3224 permutations.
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2017-02-03T05:16:15Z beach: drmeister: You would use satiation only as a temporary solution to convert a generic function to an ordinary function (as phoe suggested), or as it was originally designed to do, for generic functions that might have problems with metastability otherwise, typically the MOP functions.
2017-02-03T05:16:19Z beach: drmeister: The MOP functions do not have that many signatures that have applicable methods associated with them.
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2017-02-03T05:17:36Z beach: drmeister: You certainly do not want to use satiation on a generic function with a default method with several unspecialized required parameters.
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2017-02-03T05:39:44Z krwq: hey, what's the proper/recommended way to rewrite lisp files preserving whitespaces
2017-02-03T05:40:10Z krwq: and comment
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2017-02-03T05:40:24Z beach: krwq: I don't understand what you mean?  Why rewrite them?
2017-02-03T05:40:50Z krwq: i.e. i'd like to write a function which modifies my asd file
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2017-02-03T05:41:36Z beach: How would that be different from modifying any text file?
2017-02-03T05:42:04Z krwq: beach: i can i.e. write a function which creates a new lisp file with some header and content and modify asd file
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2017-02-03T05:50:01Z beach: krwq: Sorry, I am notoriously bad with understanding what people really want.  What is wrong with opening the input and output files, reading stuff from input and writing to output, except where you want your modification?
2017-02-03T05:50:44Z krwq: beach: what's the proper way to do that? write a full lisp parser?
2017-02-03T05:51:22Z beach: Well, you can use READ and PPRINT, but it will probably look ugly.
2017-02-03T05:51:53Z beach: But since you haven't told us what the purpose is, I don't know whether ugliness is a problem.  You have not said whether the generated modified file is to be maintained by humans or not.
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2017-02-03T05:52:18Z beach: People other than me would probably understand right away, but I have problems with that.  Too literal minded, I guess.
2017-02-03T05:52:51Z krwq: yes it is that's why i'm asking about preserving whitespaces and comments, if i only needed to read and write and reformat then there is no question
2017-02-03T05:53:20Z beach: You don't need to write a fill Common Lisp parser.  You have one.  It is called READ.
2017-02-03T05:54:22Z beach: I suggest you use READ and PPRINT and then hand-edit the result to look pretty, for example converting upper-case letters to lower case.
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2017-02-03T05:55:16Z beach: This technique would not preserve whitespace.
2017-02-03T05:55:40Z beach: So if it is badly indented in the first place, this technique will fix the indentation, thereby not preserving whitespace.
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2017-02-03T05:56:29Z krwq: and also remove the comments
2017-02-03T05:56:32Z beach: It might be easier to do what you want with an Emacs keyboard macro.
2017-02-03T05:56:53Z beach: Yes, that's another thing you didn't tell us, i.e., that you want to preserve comments.
2017-02-03T05:57:09Z beach: Other people would have understood.  Sorry again.
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2017-02-03T05:58:29Z beach: I would tell you to use the Common Lisp parser of Second Climacs, but it only became kind of operational yesterday; enough for my paper, but not for public use yet.  It does preserve whitespace and comments and such.
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2017-02-03T06:00:02Z beach: krwq: How significant are the modifications to you ASDF file?
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2017-02-03T06:07:27Z phoe: krwq: if you really want to preserve comments, you can modify the readtable.
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2017-02-03T06:08:17Z phoe: Make a new custom read macro which stores comments somewhere and replaces their position with gensyms like '#:COMMENT201.
2017-02-03T06:08:58Z phoe: Then, write a tiny wrapper around the PPRINT function which checks if its argument is stored in the comment database. If yes, write the value of the comment. If no, pprint the object.
2017-02-03T06:09:26Z beach: That sounds way more complicated than an Emacs keyboard macro.
2017-02-03T06:09:49Z phoe: You'll need to modify #\; to store comments to the end of the line and #\# #\| to store comments up to its matching |#.
2017-02-03T06:10:00Z phoe: beach: but it's automated and Common Lisp.
2017-02-03T06:10:38Z beach: Yes, but we haven't been told whether automation is a requirement.  I am thinking it isn't since the output is going to be maintained by humans.
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2017-02-03T06:11:59Z krwq: phoe: thank you!
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2017-02-03T06:13:22Z krwq: phoe: I like the reader macro approach - it sounds like some work but reasonable
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2017-02-03T06:19:24Z phoe: krwq: also, remember to set #\# #\.
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2017-02-03T06:19:44Z phoe: It should be printing its argument wrapped in a list.
2017-02-03T06:19:51Z phoe: Wait, no.
2017-02-03T06:19:54Z phoe: Just printing its argument.
2017-02-03T06:20:24Z phoe: So basically, READ the value and replace it with a quoted gensym in the code.
2017-02-03T06:21:01Z phoe: Also note that most likely you'll need to manually reformat some of the comments' positions. But hey, you can't have everything. Would be boring.
2017-02-03T06:22:05Z phoe: beach: correct. But, hell, if he has a huge body of code and wants it done cheap and en masse and not printed 100% ideally, then it should work.
2017-02-03T06:22:31Z phoe: krwq: and remember to end the #\; reader macro with a fresh-line.
2017-02-03T06:22:37Z phoe: or just a terpri.
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2017-02-03T06:25:40Z beach should just quit trying to help.  Others do it much better.
2017-02-03T06:27:02Z phoe: beach: aw come on now.
2017-02-03T06:28:02Z beach: Seriously.  I always seem to fail to understand the problem, whereas lots of other #lisp participants get it right away.
2017-02-03T06:28:16Z fortitude: The hyperspec for COMPILE says "The consequences are undefined if the lexical environment surrounding the function to be compiled contains any bindings other than those for macros, symbol macros, or declarations."
2017-02-03T06:28:39Z fortitude: am I correct in reading that to mean you can't use COMPILE to dynamically create a closure?
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2017-02-03T06:30:32Z Bike: yep.
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2017-02-03T06:30:51Z Bike: well, not directly.
2017-02-03T06:30:52Z fortitude: that's a little disappointing
2017-02-03T06:30:59Z fortitude: as it happens, I /am/ doing just that
2017-02-03T06:31:09Z beach: You can compile a function that creates a closure.
2017-02-03T06:31:13Z fortitude: just not not in a standards-compliant way
2017-02-03T06:31:18Z Bike: you can do (funcall (compile nil '(lambda (...closure variables...) (lambda ...))) ...closure values...)
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2017-02-03T06:31:47Z phoe: beach: nope. Your experience works in surprisingly many cases, at least from what I've seen so far, and even when your and foo-user's point of views differ, that difference still provides a lot of insight.
2017-02-03T06:31:59Z fortitude: Bike: that's a good point
2017-02-03T06:32:15Z drmeister: beach: You wouldn't recommend satiating #'print-object?
2017-02-03T06:32:37Z beach: drmeister: Correct.
2017-02-03T06:32:52Z phoe: What we got here are two valid approach, one for Emacs Lisp and one for pure CL. I like the Emacs one because it's much more selective and interactive. I like the Common Lisp one because of language purism.
2017-02-03T06:32:58Z phoe: s/approach/approaches/
2017-02-03T06:34:03Z drmeister: I'll have to put this aside for now - maybe we can talk about it in a week - I need to get working on my paper if I'm going to get it done.
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2017-02-03T06:36:51Z beach: drmeister: You could create your discriminating function differently so that you do the default method when the dispatch fails.
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2017-02-03T07:19:01Z axion: Hi
2017-02-03T07:20:36Z ebrasca: axion: Hi
2017-02-03T07:20:37Z axion: Is there a function that will get me the pathname of the loaded system from the asd file. I was thinking about using LOAD-TIME-VALUE or some such to store it so I could later open files relative to the system directory
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2017-02-03T07:25:55Z axion: I've been using this invention of mine for some years, which works for dumped images as well which is also important, but I don't really like how the caller has to pass its system name around everywhere. http://paste.lisp.org/display/338038
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2017-02-03T09:17:26Z varjag: if i want to display an x window, blt a bitmap to it and handle keypress, what's the easiest way
2017-02-03T09:17:26Z minion: varjag, memo from jasom: I believe lparallel fixed-capacity queues are implemented as ring buffers
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2017-02-03T09:17:47Z varjag: oh thanks jasom
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2017-02-03T09:26:10Z beach: varjag: CLX has everything you need for that.
2017-02-03T09:26:33Z beach: varjag: If you want to do something more sophisticated some day, you may want to try McCLIM.
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2017-02-03T09:27:11Z varjag: right
2017-02-03T09:27:21Z varjag: i played with mcclim a bit, but overkill in this case
2017-02-03T09:28:10Z Cymew: There's always SDL I guess.
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2017-02-03T09:31:48Z axion: I would prefer SDL2
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2017-02-03T09:33:47Z axion: With cl-sdl2. Then, should you want to, you could make use of sdl2kit's CLOS interface to avoid all the boilerplate
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2017-02-03T09:34:52Z varjag: aha..
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2017-02-03T10:09:09Z Cymew: oh, is cl-sdl2 CLOSified? Neat.
2017-02-03T10:11:37Z shka: examples look good
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2017-02-03T11:46:11Z varjag: shka: where are the examples?
2017-02-03T11:46:31Z shka: in cl-sdl2 repo
2017-02-03T11:46:33Z varjag: (made the window so far anyway)
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2017-02-03T11:52:13Z frodef: hello all
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2017-02-03T11:53:15Z axion: No, the CLOS interface is part of sdl2kit repo
2017-02-03T11:54:52Z Xach: Hmm!
2017-02-03T11:55:06Z Xach: The hard drive on my dedicated server is glitching.
2017-02-03T11:55:17Z Xach: No data loss yet, but it may require some migration and downtime for a replacement.
2017-02-03T11:55:23Z Xach: (this is where quicklisp.org lives)
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2017-02-03T11:57:48Z varjag: hi frodef
2017-02-03T11:57:54Z varjag: axion: i see thanks
2017-02-03T11:58:47Z phoe_: Xach: that's an use case for what I was talking about
2017-02-03T11:58:59Z Cymew: Xach: Ouch. Sounds like we all would like that downtime sooner rather than later, and unplanned.
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2017-02-03T12:07:22Z Xach: Oh, beta.quicklisp.org, where the installer and software lives, is not on this server.
2017-02-03T12:07:34Z Xach: That's hosted on AWS and is very solid.
2017-02-03T12:07:49Z Xach: This is a 5-year-old leased server that has served me well and has been very cost-effective.
2017-02-03T12:08:19Z Cymew: Ah, that's good to hear.
2017-02-03T12:08:43Z Cymew: Got scary there for a minute.
2017-02-03T12:11:05Z Xach: it does host www.quicklisp.org, which has the website.
2017-02-03T12:11:28Z beach: Hello frodef.  Long time no see.  What's up?
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2017-02-03T12:20:29Z Cymew: Xach: Bad enough, I agree.
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2017-02-03T12:35:36Z frodef: Hi beach and varjag, yes long time no irc :)
2017-02-03T12:36:05Z frodef: Not much going on really, kids and all that. Trying to get back into lisping a bit now.
2017-02-03T12:36:15Z beach: Excellent!
2017-02-03T12:36:22Z beach: Any projects?
2017-02-03T12:36:58Z beach: Maybe you should go to ELS in Brussels this year.
2017-02-03T12:39:55Z frodef: beach: Just very initial looking into stuff, trying to figure out what libraries exist etc.
2017-02-03T12:40:00Z frodef: When is brussels?
2017-02-03T12:40:18Z beach: Beginning of April.
2017-02-03T12:40:44Z beach: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/editions/2017/
2017-02-03T12:42:08Z frodef: thanks
2017-02-03T12:42:50Z frodef: Anything going on in bordeaux?
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2017-02-03T12:43:54Z beach: I have been working with my favorite co-author.  We are submitting two joint papers.
2017-02-03T12:44:11Z flip214: no third one?  Shame!!    ;P
2017-02-03T12:44:14Z beach: Rather, we already submitted them.
2017-02-03T12:44:19Z flip214: what shall I read at night?
2017-02-03T12:44:23Z beach: Oh, I have one that I wrote myself too.
2017-02-03T12:44:24Z beach: :)
2017-02-03T12:44:50Z flip214: I quite such good-night stories.... they end up nice, mostly.
2017-02-03T12:44:52Z beach: flip214: This one? http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2017-02-03T12:45:44Z flip214: hmmm, perhaps.
2017-02-03T12:45:47Z flip214: I'll take a look.
2017-02-03T12:45:54Z beach: Thanks!
2017-02-03T12:46:23Z beach: minion: Please tell frodef about SICL.
2017-02-03T12:46:23Z minion: frodef: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2017-02-03T12:46:31Z beach: minion: Please tell frodef about Cleavir.
2017-02-03T12:46:31Z minion: frodef: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2017-02-03T12:46:59Z beach: frodef: Cleavir is currently used in Clasp (and in SICL of course) and jackdaniel is planning to write a compiler for ECL using it.
2017-02-03T12:48:07Z ghard: Morning/afternoon
2017-02-03T12:48:19Z beach: Hello ghard.
2017-02-03T12:48:37Z ghard: Anybody here used the cl-http2-protocol for something?
2017-02-03T12:49:48Z ghard: I did a binary protocol implementation of the Apple Push Notifications a few months ago only to find out the next day that it got deprecated :)
2017-02-03T12:50:06Z ghard: Now they're using HTTP/2
2017-02-03T12:50:41Z ghard: Think I'd better prepare to migrate while the old gateways are still up.
2017-02-03T12:53:12Z ghard: Just wondering if it still works - it doesn't seem to be included in quicklisp.
2017-02-03T12:53:27Z ghard: The cl-http2-protocol I mean
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2017-02-03T12:55:41Z frodef: minion: please tell me about Clasp
2017-02-03T12:55:41Z minion: frodef: Clasp: An implementation of Common Lisp that interoperates smoothly with C++ and uses LLVM to generate native code
2017-02-03T12:56:45Z frodef: beach: do you get to publish such things outside of lisp-land?
2017-02-03T12:58:27Z beach: I haven't tried.  I have reached retirement age and don't need to be promoted.  It is more fun to publish where there is an interested audience.
2017-02-03T12:58:51Z ghard: Anyway I guess I take it out for a spin now. Maybe xach would like to include it in quicklisp if it still compiles and is useable, etc.
2017-02-03T12:59:13Z ghard: It's here: https://github.com/akamai/cl-http2-protocol
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2017-02-03T13:01:44Z frodef: beach: good for you! :)
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2017-02-03T13:02:25Z beach: frodef: Where do you work these days?  (assuming you are employed)
2017-02-03T13:02:37Z frodef: beach: can I ask why SICL requires a 64-bit sbcl?
2017-02-03T13:02:50Z frodef: beach: I'm not, so I'm looking for a job really.
2017-02-03T13:03:00Z beach: Oh. :(
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2017-02-03T13:03:52Z frodef: nothing to be sad about :)
2017-02-03T13:04:00Z beach: OK.
2017-02-03T13:04:08Z beach: frodef: I haven't bothered skimping on memory during bootstrapping.  I had to bump the heap size to 10GB in order to get things to compile.
2017-02-03T13:04:08Z frodef: (yet... ;)
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2017-02-03T13:05:19Z frodef: 10 GB!! That... makes me remember when people were complaining about emacs taking up all of 30 MB on disk.
2017-02-03T13:05:35Z varjag: eight megabytes and cosntant swapping!!1
2017-02-03T13:05:39Z beach: People still have complaints like that.
2017-02-03T13:06:21Z frodef: that was about the time when varjag and I were hanging out on #+allegro I think :)
2017-02-03T13:06:33Z varjag: right
2017-02-03T13:08:23Z beach: The 10GB is not related to the final size.  It is just that, for bootstrapping I create several first-class global environments inside SBCL, and I compile SICL code to HIR and then to Common Lisp and then (using the SBCL compiler) to native code.  All of that takes up a lot of room and I have better things to do than to optimize that particular aspect.
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2017-02-03T13:09:35Z frodef: beach: I understand, I had similar issues with Movitz iirc.
2017-02-03T13:09:53Z frodef: (though not quite 10 GB.. ;)
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2017-02-03T13:11:43Z beach: Right.
2017-02-03T13:12:05Z beach: I suppose you know that Movitz now has a competitor. :)
2017-02-03T13:13:06Z beach: froggey is working on Mezzano.
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2017-02-03T13:15:24Z frodef: Great, I'll look it up.
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2017-02-03T13:18:28Z shka: hmmm
2017-02-03T13:18:49Z shka: i'm really impressed with mezzano and movitz
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2017-02-03T13:19:06Z shka: getting lisp working on bare metal?
2017-02-03T13:19:09Z shka: that seems to be hard
2017-02-03T13:19:15Z beach: It isn't.
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2017-02-03T13:19:49Z shka: you need to have full implementation of every single thing
2017-02-03T13:20:05Z shka: that sound awful hard
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2017-02-03T13:20:55Z beach: I am willing to bet that frodef spent way more time on the compiler than on the code to get it to boot.
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2017-02-03T13:21:43Z shka: well, but the real question is: could he skip writing compiler?
2017-02-03T13:21:48Z beach: Plus, implementing a compiler requires some serious literature reading.  Bootstrapping is merely a matter of following instructions.
2017-02-03T13:22:18Z beach: Some people tried to create SBCLOS.  I forget who that was.
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2017-02-03T13:28:20Z frodef: beach: what would SBCLOS be?
2017-02-03T13:28:32Z beach: SBCL running on bare metal.
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2017-02-03T13:40:58Z beach: shka: In my opinion, the real hard part is to figure out what abstractions are to be presented to application code.  How do you handle protection so as to have a safe system? How does (controlled) communication between applications work?
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2017-02-03T13:43:11Z frodef: beach: duh.. I was reading sb-clos not sbcl-os..
2017-02-03T13:43:26Z beach: Oh, heh. Sorry.
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2017-02-03T13:43:40Z beach: It might have been called something else entirely.  I don't remember.
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2017-02-03T13:44:42Z beach: It was in reply to shka suggesting that to create an OS, you don't necessarily have to rewrite the compiler from scratch.
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2017-02-03T13:46:20Z frodef: In my opinion, the "hard part" you describe is also the extremely interesting part, because I suspect there are some serious gains to be had over the unix process model.
2017-02-03T13:46:34Z beach: I totally agree.
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2017-02-03T13:47:00Z shka: heh, this is actually funny
2017-02-03T13:47:40Z shka: because current software trends are actually downgrade from unix model
2017-02-03T13:48:00Z shka: at least IMHO
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2017-02-03T13:48:22Z beach: "downgrade"?
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2017-02-03T13:48:48Z frodef: shka: any example of what you're thinking of?
2017-02-03T13:49:08Z shka: large monolithic applications
2017-02-03T13:49:32Z shka: and monolithic frameworks
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2017-02-03T13:49:54Z shka: especially big data related
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2017-02-03T13:51:36Z beach: shka: In your opinion, what is the "unix model"?
2017-02-03T13:53:10Z shka: process should be ideally small, simple; do one thing and act as a building block for a solution of a problem
2017-02-03T13:53:16Z shka: like sed
2017-02-03T13:53:39Z shka: it obviously has some drawbacks
2017-02-03T13:53:48Z beach: The idea of connecting many small applications with pipes made of character streams is way too simplistic.  It was a necessity because of the limited address space that a single process could have.
2017-02-03T13:54:10Z shka: well, yes, it was invented back in the 70s
2017-02-03T13:54:20Z beach: So, think of it as a stupid restriction that we needed 50 years ago, but haven't needed for the past few decades.
2017-02-03T13:54:26Z shka: sure
2017-02-03T13:54:42Z beach: The challenge, then, is to come up with a new model for this day and age.
2017-02-03T13:54:47Z shka: sure
2017-02-03T13:55:02Z shka: and, which i find funny
2017-02-03T13:55:19Z beach: That's good I guess.
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2017-02-03T13:55:51Z shka: i still consider this approach that is 50 years old to be not bad when compared with what apache spark is trying to do
2017-02-03T13:57:33Z shka: which says a lot
2017-02-03T13:57:49Z shka: pipes were good for a time
2017-02-03T13:57:52Z jackdaniel: imho it's not only about computer resources constraint – it's about cognitive resources too, and this haven't changed through the last 50 years. It's way easier to understand, maintain and fix simple systems with clean separation than complex ones
2017-02-03T13:58:03Z shka: they still are for many use cases
2017-02-03T13:58:17Z jackdaniel: that said I still don't have clear preference towards any
2017-02-03T13:58:31Z jackdaniel: because complex systems have their clear adventages too
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2017-02-03T13:59:55Z jackdaniel: my head is killing me today
2017-02-03T14:00:14Z beach: jackdaniel: Clearly, we want complex systems to be built out of independently usable components that have their own interfaces, documentation, etc.  But the way those independent components communicate does not have to be with character pipes.
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2017-02-03T14:00:27Z beach: jackdaniel: Sorry to hear about your head.  What happened?
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2017-02-03T14:00:44Z jackdaniel: nothing, weather changed and I have a terrible headache since morning
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2017-02-03T14:01:58Z jackdaniel: yes, I agree that being able to pass a reference to the object is much better than pipes
2017-02-03T14:02:19Z jackdaniel: I just don't think that unix philosophy is much about pipes
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2017-02-03T14:03:07Z beach: Not so much anymore, because the address space is bigger these days.  But we are stuck with processes as a leftover of the age of small address spaces.
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2017-02-03T14:04:29Z beach: So then, we introduce shared libraries in the same process to save space and improve speed.  But then we have problems with buffer overflow and such so that attacks are common.  Then we fix that with address-space randomization.  Go figure!
2017-02-03T14:04:44Z jackdaniel: I think that we will be in a full agreement if we replace word "program" with "function" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy
2017-02-03T14:05:02Z shka: jackdaniel: exactly!
2017-02-03T14:05:32Z jackdaniel: except the part of text streams as universal interface (that's indeed a pip thing :)
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2017-02-03T14:05:41Z beach: But then it is no longer Unix philosophy.  It is just good software engineering design.  It has been around for way longer than Unix.
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2017-02-03T14:05:49Z jackdaniel: frodef: if you are interested in mezzano, there is a channel #mezzano on freenode
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2017-02-03T14:06:44Z beach: jackdaniel: Plus, it totally ignores progress such as object-oriented design.
2017-02-03T14:06:46Z shka: beach: point is i guess, unix is not all that stupid; it really follows tried and true ideas (but in 70s way which is just obsolete)
2017-02-03T14:08:16Z jackdaniel: then we won't be in fully agreement even if we change this word, my bad
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2017-02-03T14:08:26Z shka: heh, just read 17 unix rules
2017-02-03T14:08:44Z beach: jackdaniel: In reality, Unix was what they had to put up with because Multics could not run on the skimpy machines at their disposal.  Multics was already way better than Unix at the time.  Unfortunately, as we know, quality is not enough for survival in this strange world.
2017-02-03T14:08:45Z shka: could be like 14 or so of lisp programming
2017-02-03T14:10:41Z beach: But it is also common to see history rewritten in order to make Unix look much better than it ever was, compared to what already existed at the time.
2017-02-03T14:11:40Z jackdaniel: maybe so, I lack context. either way I have encountered some practices I believe are very imporant through the term unix philosophy
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2017-02-03T14:17:36Z shka: heh
2017-02-03T14:17:51Z shka: this is so strang
2017-02-03T14:18:17Z shka: at this point we will be discussing what is operating system design any time soon
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2017-02-03T14:27:58Z beach: It is getting more and more off topic, but if you can steer it back in a Common Lisp context, then why not.
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2017-02-03T14:29:52Z Xach: The more I learned about Common Lisp and Lisp history and culture, the less I viewed C and Unix as the pinnacle of design and implementation.
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2017-02-03T14:45:45Z beach: I used Multics before I used Unix.  Not only was the Multics PL/I implementation much closer to Lisp than any other implementation of PL/I or any other "traditional" programming language that I am aware of (and in fact, the Multics PL/I condition system was used as a model of that of Common Lisp), but Multics also had a very good implementation of Maclisp, and the first Emacs implementation written in Lisp.  So I was not impressed when
2017-02-03T14:45:45Z beach: I had to switch to Unix (and VMS before that).
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2017-02-03T14:46:53Z varjag: i think very few here can relate to differences in pl/i implementations
2017-02-03T14:48:07Z beach: That's why I am telling you. :)
2017-02-03T14:48:10Z varjag: (remember reading a book about it once)
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2017-02-03T14:48:16Z varjag: right!
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2017-02-03T14:48:25Z beach: Interestingly, well respected books on operating systems choose a descriptive presentation only, and therefore must concentrate on what is currently used.  I would like to see a book on operating system design that has opinions about the different abstractions that different systems provide.
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2017-02-03T14:49:30Z beach: But I suspect that, since OS design is dead (no funding), few people are both qualified to write such a book and sufficiently experienced in book writing to pull such a project off.
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2017-02-03T14:53:02Z Cymew: beach: This might be off topic, but I have to ask you if you have actually practical experience of PL/I. Is the last character supposed to be a '1' as a roman numeral, or is it a 'I'? I've heard it's supposed to be mean "Programming Language One (i.e. 'I')" but have not been able to confirm that.
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2017-02-03T14:55:17Z beach: Yes, I wrote in Multics PL/I professionally.  And the I is supposed to be pronounced "one", so "pee ell one".
2017-02-03T14:56:17Z Cymew: Ah, thanks. Good to know how to say it.
2017-02-03T14:56:22Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I
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2017-02-03T14:57:45Z Cymew: It's not always you can trust everything on wikipedia. ;)
2017-02-03T14:58:09Z beach: But you think you can trust me?  HAHAHAHAHAHA!
2017-02-03T14:58:18Z Cymew: :)
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2017-02-03T14:58:30Z Cymew: Let's call it an aditional data point, eh?
2017-02-03T14:58:42Z beach: Sounds good. :)
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2017-02-03T15:02:27Z aeth: What if beach edited Wikipedia?
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2017-02-03T15:04:58Z Cymew: Hmmm. Good point.
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2017-02-03T15:23:00Z myrkraverk: Does LOOP have a join operator, for strings?
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2017-02-03T15:25:15Z azrazalea: myrkraverk: append/appending might work? Not sure, haven't tried it. (if it works for vectors it'll work for strings I think)
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2017-02-03T15:26:11Z aeth: Strings are just character vectors.
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2017-02-03T15:26:30Z beach: azrazalea: No, append works only on lists.
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2017-02-03T15:26:39Z aeth: You can build strings with e.g. vector-push-extend if you want.
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2017-02-03T15:27:30Z azrazalea: aeth: That's what I thought but wasn't confident enough to just say.
2017-02-03T15:28:06Z azrazalea: beach: Yeah, I was thinking that but wasn't sure so thought i'd suggest trying it.
2017-02-03T15:28:21Z beach: myrkraverk: You probably wouldn't want to do it that way anyway, because you would end up with a lot of reallocated strings.  I suggest you start by computing the total length and then use REPLACE.
2017-02-03T15:28:45Z pjb: myrkraverk: you would use with-output-to-string and I/O operators to do that.
2017-02-03T15:29:19Z myrkraverk: I'm currently collecting the strings (from the mess that I get from cl-html5-parse) and I want a single string from all of that.
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2017-02-03T15:29:29Z pjb: (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (loop for word in (split-sequence #\space "good bye cruel world") do (write-string word))) #| --> "goodbyecruelworld" |#
2017-02-03T15:29:43Z PuercoPop: myrkraverk: you can use loop/collect and coerce
2017-02-03T15:29:51Z myrkraverk: pjb: yes, exactly.
2017-02-03T15:30:09Z myrkraverk: I can use :do (write-string ...) instead of :collect.
2017-02-03T15:30:30Z beach: PuercoPop: collect each character into a list?
2017-02-03T15:30:41Z beach: PuercoPop: That sounds like a real bad idea.
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2017-02-03T15:32:59Z beach: myrkraverk: You could use (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x y)) list-of-strings), but that would also typically allocate a lot.
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2017-02-03T15:33:40Z myrkraverk: I see; I'm currently experimenting with WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING.
2017-02-03T15:33:57Z beach: That technique would likely have the same problem.
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2017-02-03T15:35:47Z myrkraverk: Of allocating a lot?
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2017-02-03T15:36:43Z beach: I would think so, yes, because it can not determine in advance the length of the result.
2017-02-03T15:36:57Z beach: So it has to extend as necessary, and that implies reallocation.
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2017-02-03T15:38:41Z myrkraverk: I see.  Well, if and when that really is a problem, I'll tackle it.  right now correct behaviour is more important.
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2017-02-03T15:39:31Z myrkraverk: I'm not sure the strings I'm creating are long enough that it matters -- I'm not dealing with full html documents, only parts.
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2017-02-03T15:40:38Z beach: I tried it on 10000 strings each of length 3.  My technique conses 26kB and the I/O technique conses 150kB on my SBCL version.
2017-02-03T15:40:56Z phoe: actually, if you can compute the length beforehand
2017-02-03T15:40:57Z beach: But if it doesn't matter, then use any technique that works.
2017-02-03T15:41:06Z beach: phoe: That's what I just said.
2017-02-03T15:41:28Z phoe: you can cons a single vector and do some sort of iteration to write chars from your separate strings onto that array
2017-02-03T15:41:32Z phoe: beach: oh.
2017-02-03T15:41:34Z pjb: assumedly, with-output-to-string uses an amortized allocation algorithm, so it should allocate O(n).
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2017-02-03T15:42:27Z pjb: also, if we are "extracting" strings from a file that is read in whole in RAM, you can  loop collecting intervals, and allocate and copy the result at the end.
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2017-02-03T15:42:41Z beach: http://paste.lisp.org/+78VF
2017-02-03T15:43:14Z pjb: This already assumes copied substrings (unless you used my nsubstring).
2017-02-03T15:43:30Z pjb: I mean, if space optimization is at all important.
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2017-02-03T15:44:16Z beach: I really enjoyed reading that blog about "premature optimization" that someone posted the other day.  Was it jackdaniel?
2017-02-03T15:44:26Z myrkraverk: thank you; copied/linked.
2017-02-03T15:45:15Z myrkraverk: I haven't seen it.  If you find it again, please share it.
2017-02-03T15:46:14Z beach: I think this was it: http://ubiquity.acm.org/article.cfm?id=1513451
2017-02-03T15:48:09Z myrkraverk: Ah, thank you.
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2017-02-03T15:48:50Z myrkraverk: Btw, the reason I think I don't *need* to optimize my code, is that empirical evidence suggests I only have 3 strings to join/concatenate each time I do it.
2017-02-03T15:49:26Z pjb: Most of the wrongs of our world come from the distortion or loss of the meaning of sentences.
2017-02-03T15:49:55Z beach: pjb: Interesting idea.
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2017-02-03T15:49:58Z myrkraverk: One to three strings, per loop, in actual data.
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2017-02-03T15:50:49Z pjb: Like, people want some kind of absolute "equality" when the Human Right declaration only gives "equality before the law".   They forget "before the law" and then we have all kind of abuses.
2017-02-03T15:50:53Z beach: myrkraverk: Perhaps Alexandria already has a function like that.  But if it doesn't, you might consider adding it.  And then, who knows how many and how long strings it will be used for in the future.
2017-02-03T15:51:19Z myrkraverk: beach: true.
2017-02-03T15:51:43Z myrkraverk: It's getting close to midnight here; I'll finish this in the morning and think about Alexandrea later.
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2017-02-03T15:51:59Z pjb: Or like, people think that perpetual movement cannot exist, but they forget that the thermodynamics theorems only apply on CLOSED systems, and that apart from the whole universe (and even, there are doubts about it), there is no actual closed system.
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2017-02-03T15:52:43Z beach: pjb: You have a future career as a philosopher.  Or maybe candidate for president of France.
2017-02-03T15:52:49Z pjb: :-)
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2017-02-03T15:55:08Z shka: i would totally vote for pjb
2017-02-03T15:55:52Z Josh_2: I'd vote for Marine Le Pen huehue
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2017-02-03T15:58:13Z aeth: pjb: I thought perpetual motion was defined as being in a closed system, i.e. defined to violate thermodynamics?
2017-02-03T15:58:24Z pjb: aeth: exactly!
2017-02-03T15:58:56Z pjb: But since there is no closed system,  and you don't care whether the motion ends when the universe ends, then there is in practice motion that last for"ever".
2017-02-03T16:00:16Z pjb: It's like Turing Machines and O(f(n)) algorithms.  There's no Turing Machine, since we don't have infinite memory, and therefore all programs are O(1).  And you can even make them all run in the exact same time (with time padding).
2017-02-03T16:00:52Z pjb: And absolute equality calls for time padding…
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2017-02-03T16:05:12Z beach: pjb: I have considered that idea, and came up with a workaround.  Whenever memory is exhausted, the program takes a shapshot of its current state, and asks the user to move it to a bigger machine or install more memory.  Then execution can continue.  The memory is not infinite, but I don't think the Turing machine requires that either.  Only that it is unbounded, and my solution provides that.
2017-02-03T16:06:03Z pjb: Good idea, until we hook the computers to robots to transform the universe in actual memory :-)
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2017-02-03T16:07:28Z varjag: with cl-sdl2, if i want a surface generated rather than loaded from file via the api
2017-02-03T16:07:38Z varjag: what would be the proper pixel array format
2017-02-03T16:07:58Z varjag: assume i need to call create-rgb-surface-from
2017-02-03T16:08:55Z varjag never used sdl natively so has no mental model
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2017-02-03T16:10:29Z varjag: let's say i want a black box, do i generate h*w*depth array of (unsigned-byte 8)s or something?
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2017-02-03T16:20:00Z beach: For my ELS paper on incremental parsing, I need to find out the clock speed of my processor.  When I do `cat /proc/cpuinfo' I get 3.3GHz on the "model name" line, and 1600.000 on the "cpu MHz" line.  Which one is correct?
2017-02-03T16:20:15Z pjb: :-)
2017-02-03T16:21:30Z phoe: beach: it's likely that 3.3GHz is correct.
2017-02-03T16:21:31Z pjb: I would say both.  There must be a frequency divisor or multiplicator somewhere.
2017-02-03T16:22:17Z phoe: The "cpu MHz" depends on the current CPU load.
2017-02-03T16:22:33Z beach: Ah, OK.
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2017-02-03T16:22:50Z beach: So I should use 3.3 which is the max then.
2017-02-03T16:22:57Z phoe: Like, try running two or three SBCL images with (loop) in them.
2017-02-03T16:23:02Z phoe: And then try catting /proc/cpuinfo.
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2017-02-03T16:23:09Z phoe: You should get the maximum value then.
2017-02-03T16:23:33Z beach: Thanks!
2017-02-03T16:23:53Z phoe: Modern CPUs tends to go into lower power states when their full power is not used, so they consume less power.
2017-02-03T16:24:04Z phoe: Especially on laptops.
2017-02-03T16:24:08Z pjb: and they do that by reducing the frequency.
2017-02-03T16:24:12Z phoe: ^
2017-02-03T16:24:14Z beach: I understand.
2017-02-03T16:24:29Z rumbler31: anyone run into this? Can't locate module: SWANK-IO-PACKAGE::SWANK-TRACE-DIALOG.  I made an image configured to start swank on one machine and transferred it to another.  I get it when I try to connect to the running image
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2017-02-03T16:46:14Z azrazalea: varjag: #lispgames is more likely to get you an answer there
2017-02-03T16:46:19Z azrazalea: The author of cl-sdl2 is there
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2017-02-03T17:09:10Z Devon: System "com.informatimago.common-lisp" not found ... ok, what's a bugfix or workaround?
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2017-02-03T17:10:34Z pjb: Devon: workaround, git clone in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
2017-02-03T17:10:39Z jackdaniel: Devon: put informatimago repositories in local-projects
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2017-02-03T17:10:54Z pjb: bugfix: I have to debug it on sbcl, it looks like latest versions of sbcl can't compile it anymore.
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2017-02-03T17:12:53Z pjb: it's on gitlab, but I hear they have difficulties there.  There are clones on https://github.com/informatimago/lisp.git  and  https://framagit.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago.git
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2017-02-03T17:14:04Z jackdaniel: I think they have overcome these difficulties
2017-02-03T17:14:09Z jackdaniel: already
2017-02-03T17:14:33Z pjb: ok.  I didn't have the courage to follow their restoring process on youtube live…
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2017-02-03T17:20:28Z Devon: Weird, fixed by $ cp -pr ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/com.informatimago-quicklisp-e5c30848-git ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
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2017-02-03T17:22:01Z jackdaniel: Devon: something what is in software/ directory doesn't necessarily mean it in the current quicklisp distribution
2017-02-03T17:22:19Z jackdaniel: if it isn't, it won't be found
2017-02-03T17:24:46Z Devon: pjb, jackdaniel: thanks for the quick fix
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2017-02-03T17:59:50Z names: vaporatorius manualcrank bungoman cibs TDT jdev30 Harag manuel_ rippa test1600_ vlatkoB Sigyn Josh_2 justinabrahms gigetoo dilated_dinosaur attila_lendvai mada pierpa khisanth_ scymtym ft d4ryus angavrilov mishoo sdsadsda_ aindilis2 bocaneri karswell` ebrasca nzambe eschatologist Lord_Nightmare skaria pjb beach joneshf-laptop zymurgy jmasseo reepca alex`` phoe Tristam edgar-rft froggey frodef foom zooey gremly theBlackDragon whartung n3k0_t travv0 ogamita
2017-02-03T17:59:50Z names: araujo Lord_of_Life stux|RC hjudt MrBusiness Oddity Petit_Dejeuner rann ryanwatkins chronull` schjetne zacts erethon voidlily qlkzy __main__ fiddlerwoaroof jurov aje joga impulse emma lnostdal loke pillton Walex beatdown alandipert kolko dyelar opt9 drdo Intensity sshirokov sword` detergnet davsebamse Jesin moei borodust fe[nl]ix Blkt DGASAU wooden_ heurist ChrisOei chrisdone eazar001 emerson jdz sigjuice chavezgu CORDIC dmiles mathrick killmaster Oladon
2017-02-03T17:59:50Z names: o`connor billstclair k4rtik ksool nullx002- kattana Cymew hzp TruePika arbv neuri8 e segmond cross akkad saturniid lemoinem ym pareidolia impaktor marsjaninzmarsa cpape brandonz thijso djuber troydm tanuzzo vibs29 vlnx peterhil` josh5tone MrWoohoo rpav dcluna mtd freehck Nikotiini whiteline pent harlequin78[m] M-Illandan M-herah RichardPaulBck[m fouric phadthai azrazalea dedmons alphor omilu beaky askatasuna SCHAAP137 misv SlashLife cyraxjoe holly2
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2017-02-03T17:59:50Z names: jean377_ unrahul sebboh mklk xantoz flip214 djinni` jcloud gz_ alms_clozure kilimanjaro gbyers asedeno nydel tobel unbalancedparen danieli _death Firedancer Reinisch mrSpec Quadrescence arjenve sepi`` bounb les Karunamon rotty Subfusc Zotan finnrobi_ Urfin Colleen__ kjeldahl nullman thinkpad libreman benny norfumpit isoraqathedh schoppenhauer leo_song Posterdati coyo larme mnoonan aaronjensen ircbrowse splittist mbrock Neet_ pchrist lancetw |3b| d4gg4d
2017-02-03T17:59:50Z names: taij33n switchy marcoecc joast kbtr mood swflint Tordek vert2 zkat ramus rvirding gendl joeygibson malm z0d tomaw redcedar specbot eMBee arrdem aap luis jself gabot makufiru tilpner yeltzooo eagleflo pankracy TMA nimiux fjl payphone sohail knobo fluxit jackdaniel Ober N3vYn pacon Zhivago mikaelj gabiruh drmeister MorTal1ty trig-ger p_l Glitchy vsync dan64 nhandler kjak axion renard_ roscoe_tw l1x banjiewen wyan PuercoPop mjl solene zerac tiago ``Erik amoe_
2017-02-03T17:59:50Z names: Faed tephra koisoke peccu1 felideon Xach danlentz ogkloo lieven abbe Mandus jackc
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2017-02-03T18:31:56Z Xach: sad remark in the Corman "port" of quicklisp: ;; default-initargs not implemented in Corman Lisp
2017-02-03T18:32:03Z Xach: hacks and glory await!
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2017-02-03T18:34:40Z aeth: It's not just laptops. My 4.0 GHz desktop processor is at 800 MHz right now (and similarly, my GPU is down to 696 MHz from 1999 MHz)
2017-02-03T18:35:08Z jackdaniel: mine is at its top speed for sake of keeping flat warm ;)
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2017-02-03T18:41:12Z frodef: Is Corman Lisp still alive?
2017-02-03T18:42:04Z jackdaniel: frodef: it was recently opensources and there is some work on it done on github
2017-02-03T18:42:12Z jackdaniel: s/opensources/opensourced/
2017-02-03T18:42:26Z jackdaniel: it was stale for some time until the last year
2017-02-03T18:45:00Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/sharplispers/cormanlisp
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2017-02-03T18:49:40Z Xach: http://lispblog.xach.com/post/107215169193/corman-lisp-sources-are-now-available has some of the story
2017-02-03T18:52:56Z Xach: and other people hacked on it, and fixed some thorny problems, and that renewed roger's hacking interest
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2017-02-03T19:04:18Z jasom: beach: some CPUs can go over the clock speed on the "model name" line on a single core when other cores are idle (Turbo Boost I think is the marketing name for that).
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2017-02-03T19:05:42Z beach: I see.  It is not terribly important in this case.  I am only giving ballpark figures.  But I didn't think a factor 2 was something I could ignore.
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2017-02-03T19:10:04Z jasom: The CPU name/model is sufficient for people who want to replicate anyways
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2017-02-03T19:10:45Z aeth: beach: For Intel CPUs, you could look up the model name and then look them up in http://ark.intel.com/
2017-02-03T19:10:59Z jasom: e.g. for mine I would list: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz
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2017-02-03T19:11:59Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2017-02-03T19:49:04Z varjag: did cffi drop :convention arg recently?
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2017-02-03T19:52:39Z varjag: it breaks cl-autowrap
2017-02-03T19:52:49Z varjag: apparently changed to :calling-convention
2017-02-03T19:53:05Z varjag: not sure if i should file a bug report as it is probably intentional
2017-02-03T19:53:17Z varjag: but the manual still not updated
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2017-02-03T20:56:25Z Xach: Hmm, is there a way to macroexpand a macrolet?
2017-02-03T21:02:30Z Baggers: Xach: macroexpand-dammit usually does a good job with those
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2017-02-03T21:03:38Z Baggers: Xach: actually, slime-macroexpand-all worked for me too
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2017-02-03T21:04:35Z Baggers: the 'all' bit can make it tricky when there is something like a loop in there though. Something more incremental would be lovely
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2017-02-03T21:08:14Z Xach: Thanks
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2017-02-03T21:08:26Z Xach: That's good enough for my present use
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2017-02-03T21:29:06Z PuercoPop: Baggers: there is a contrib for that, slime-macrostep IIRC
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2017-02-03T21:46:20Z Baggers: PuercoPop: thanks, I'll have a look. I use slime-expand-1 constantly but macrolets have always been a wall for it
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2017-02-03T22:07:23Z jackdaniel: hey, I would appreciate any feedback on this ELS demo submission http://hellsgate.pl/mcclim-demo.pdf (preferably at daniel@turtleware.eu), thanks!
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2017-02-03T23:29:02Z varjag: "Symbol "ASSOC-VALUE" not found in the ALEXANDRIA.0.DEV package."
2017-02-03T23:29:08Z varjag: it's not my day
2017-02-03T23:29:24Z varjag: (this is when loading clim)
2017-02-03T23:29:51Z varjag: clim-core/frames.lisp
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2017-02-03T23:59:37Z Baggers: jackdaniel: I wanted to make a submission but couldnt understand the academic paper format. Is it ok with you if I crib from this?
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2017-02-04T03:41:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-04T03:42:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Morning beach
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2017-02-04T07:35:18Z jackdaniel: minion: memo for Baggers: sure, go ahead
2017-02-04T07:35:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Baggers when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-02-04T10:33:50Z beach: The paper I just submitted to ELS2017 was assigned the number 21.  As far as I can tell, there were 20 submissions last year.  And there are still a few to be submitted this year, I think.  Very nice!
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2017-02-04T11:25:35Z phoe: I need to finish mine today.
2017-02-04T11:27:26Z beach: Good plan.
2017-02-04T11:27:36Z shka: phoe: subject?
2017-02-04T11:28:13Z beach: shka: The Common Lisp UltraSpec.
2017-02-04T11:28:19Z shka: ok
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2017-02-04T11:28:37Z phoe: the sketch is at https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/blob/master/paper.pdf
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2017-02-04T11:35:32Z shka: that's interesting project, no doubts
2017-02-04T11:38:22Z axion: phoe: I didn't think much of CLUS for the last couple years until recently. I now think it is a very good idea, especially considering there is more documentation than that of the standard, and I am impressed you are pursuing the project so aggressively. A paper/talk at ELS would be great. Keep up the good work.
2017-02-04T11:48:22Z shka: well, getting independent documentation online is needed
2017-02-04T11:48:34Z shka: even better if it actually looks modern
2017-02-04T11:49:00Z shka: perhaps we will be able to host documentation for most commonly used libs there as well
2017-02-04T11:49:05Z shka: like BT
2017-02-04T11:49:14Z shka: or alexandria
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2017-02-04T11:52:42Z jackdaniel: what documentation?
2017-02-04T11:52:55Z shka: function listing
2017-02-04T11:53:08Z shka: and stuff™
2017-02-04T11:53:23Z shka: yes, b-threads actually have docs ;-)
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2017-02-04T12:05:25Z phoe: axion: mostly because CLUS only came to life in 2016; no doubt you didn't think much of it before it was created. :D
2017-02-04T12:05:53Z phoe: but I guess you mention the general idea of editing the standard, modernizing it and linking with other parts of Lisp documentation.
2017-02-04T12:06:02Z phoe: shka: yes, that's a goal.
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2017-02-04T12:09:19Z axion: phoe: I remember when it was created, and thought it was longer.
2017-02-04T12:09:57Z phoe: axion: another proof that time flows differently in the Lisp land.
2017-02-04T12:10:19Z axion: Agreed. It's hard to believe I have been coding Lisp exclusively for a decade this year
2017-02-04T12:10:42Z phoe: shka: I want to grab the documentation for most important* Lisp libraries and include it in the CLUS.
2017-02-04T12:10:56Z phoe: *this is very subjective and I know wars will be fought over it
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2017-02-04T12:12:46Z phoe: but also I want to open up CLUS for contribution. if someone creates a library, has documentation for it and is willing to format it for DokuWiki and meet the quality guidelines, I'm up for letting the stuff in.
2017-02-04T12:13:00Z phoe: just - soon. Once I finish converting the specification.
2017-02-04T12:13:08Z axion: Considering it is a Wiki, I think having good offline documentation for any library, important or not, is possible and expected for a good central repository of information. Many libraries currently only have a very select number of users, and if one of them were to document it with good offline documentation, rather than just auto-generated API info, I think that number would increase.
2017-02-04T12:13:20Z phoe: axion: the fact that it is a wiki is coincidental.
2017-02-04T12:13:30Z phoe: I wanted DokuWiki because I needed a rendering engine.
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2017-02-04T12:13:49Z axion: Well I was referring to one of your points in your paper
2017-02-04T12:13:52Z phoe: Not because I want users to register on it and edit.
2017-02-04T12:14:00Z phoe: Yes yes - just, the sources for it are on git.
2017-02-04T12:14:15Z phoe: I want its workflow to be more of a Git workflow and less of a wiki workflow.
2017-02-04T12:14:28Z axion: Points #1 and #12 of 1.4.2 actually
2017-02-04T12:14:35Z phoe: You don't edit single pages, you submit patches.
2017-02-04T12:15:08Z phoe: #12?
2017-02-04T12:15:49Z axion: Yeah, I parsed that as the Lisp community collective should decide its content
2017-02-04T12:16:04Z phoe: Yes, that's correct.
2017-02-04T12:16:28Z phoe: But - at least in my imagination - that happens through Git and not through some wiki engine.
2017-02-04T12:16:31Z axion: err
2017-02-04T12:16:36Z axion: #10
2017-02-04T12:16:44Z axion: Why did I write 12...heh
2017-02-04T12:16:48Z phoe: Yup.
2017-02-04T12:17:36Z axion: phoe: yes of course, I would prefer git -> wiki rather than the reverse versioning scheme
2017-02-04T12:17:52Z phoe: Ayup! That's what happens right now with the public version of the CLUS.
2017-02-04T12:18:40Z phoe: Shinmera set up Git to automatically pull the master version from GitHub every hour and symlinked the proper DokuWiki directory to the proper Git directory.
2017-02-04T12:19:39Z axion: I guess he gave up on #lisp again.
2017-02-04T12:19:55Z phoe: Seems like it. He's on #clasp for example.
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2017-02-04T12:23:58Z phoe: Anyway - once I finish converting the standard, I will be looking for contributors. People who are willing to bugfix, people who are willing to submit new content, people who will be guardians for the existing docbase and enforcing quality for submissions.
2017-02-04T12:24:31Z phoe: So far I'm the only person for the three categories, but that's natural because CLUS is in a very early stage. :þ
2017-02-04T12:25:22Z axion: phoe: I would certainly help out with that when the time comes. Just let me know.
2017-02-04T12:26:27Z phoe: axion: I'll surely let you know. #lisp will know, in general.
2017-02-04T12:27:07Z phoe: You can observe the project on github if you want to be notified for sure. I'll make a github release once I'm done with the specification.
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2017-02-04T12:27:22Z axion: Good idea...I'll follow
2017-02-04T12:27:26Z axion: I appreciate your work. :) Ok, back to code...
2017-02-04T12:27:27Z phoe: phoe/clus-data
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2017-02-04T12:44:32Z myrkraverk: How do I typecase for nil?
2017-02-04T12:44:43Z myrkraverk: Is it (NULL ...) or something else?
2017-02-04T12:44:57Z _death: it is
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2017-02-04T12:46:38Z phoe: the only object of type NULL is NIL itself, yes.
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2017-02-04T12:50:46Z myrkraverk: Ok, then something *else* is getting a NIL before said typecase.
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2017-02-04T12:52:24Z phoe: myrkraverk: give us the code.
2017-02-04T12:52:40Z phoe: or just the types.
2017-02-04T12:52:44Z phoe: Remember that NIL is a list.
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2017-02-04T12:53:57Z myrkraverk: The typecase is currently (string foo) (null "") (list ...)
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2017-02-04T12:54:22Z myrkraverk: So I thought the null would catch it before list processing begins.
2017-02-04T12:54:28Z phoe: well, it should.
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2017-02-04T12:54:39Z phoe: If you get a NIL, it should go into the NULL typecase.
2017-02-04T12:54:43Z myrkraverk: The code itself is quite horrible, I'm ashamed to show it ;p
2017-02-04T12:54:54Z phoe: It shouldn't leak over to further claueses.
2017-02-04T12:54:59Z phoe: clauses.
2017-02-04T12:55:16Z myrkraverk: Ok.
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2017-02-04T12:56:09Z myrkraverk: I'm trying another minor tweak; hopefully I caught the nil case this time.
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2017-02-04T12:57:25Z myrkraverk: Nope; back to the drawing board.
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2017-02-04T13:01:08Z phoe: myrkraverk: are you sure it's that typecase that gets the NIL?
2017-02-04T13:01:21Z phoe: maybe it's elsewhere?
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2017-02-04T13:01:29Z phoe: like, a different path in code.
2017-02-04T13:01:39Z phoe: TRACE and stacktraces might be useful.
2017-02-04T13:01:49Z myrkraverk: Yes, it's elsewhere, I'm sure.  But I thought it was, because my code is recursive.
2017-02-04T13:01:56Z myrkraverk: Yes, I need to trace what's happening.
2017-02-04T13:02:10Z myrkraverk: The stacktrace I get on the error is not helpful.
2017-02-04T13:02:21Z phoe: What is it?
2017-02-04T13:02:24Z phoe: I mean, the error?
2017-02-04T13:03:40Z myrkraverk: The value NIL is not of type STRING.
2017-02-04T13:03:52Z myrkraverk: So I tried putting (null "") in the typecase.
2017-02-04T13:04:05Z phoe: I need to see the code.
2017-02-04T13:04:16Z myrkraverk: but right now, deadlifts are more important; I'll continue when I get back.
2017-02-04T13:04:23Z phoe: myrkraverk: post it.
2017-02-04T13:04:29Z phoe: I'll try to figure things out while you're away.
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2017-02-04T13:07:57Z myrkraverk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338158
2017-02-04T13:08:05Z myrkraverk: I hope that's everything you need, because I need to run out now.
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2017-02-04T13:15:21Z phoe: myrkraverk: I'd also need some input data.
2017-02-04T13:15:39Z phoe: The nested typecase looks so horribly wrong though.
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2017-02-04T13:24:43Z phoe: I need input that triggers this.
2017-02-04T13:24:53Z phoe: I cannot reproduce the error.
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2017-02-04T13:28:32Z phoe: First thing: I suspect the TYPECASEs are leaky somewhere.
2017-02-04T13:28:39Z phoe: Turn them into ETYPECASEs.
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2017-02-04T13:29:18Z phoe: Because if PARSE returns NIL anywhere, then (write-string (parse ...)) will fail with that message.
2017-02-04T13:29:21Z phoe: clhs write-string
2017-02-04T13:29:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_stg.htm
2017-02-04T13:30:52Z phoe: ETYPECASEs will give you much better error messages.
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2017-02-04T13:34:05Z phoe: And make sure nothing leaks.
2017-02-04T13:34:40Z phoe: Because TYPECASE will silently return NIL if it does not match and I doubt you want that in your parser because I doubt anyone would want that in any parser.
2017-02-04T13:35:09Z phoe: oh, right.
2017-02-04T13:35:19Z phoe: Substitute #'string= for #'string-equals
2017-02-04T13:36:05Z phoe: Wait, no. We're doing XML, which is case-sensitive.
2017-02-04T13:37:07Z phoe: Again - I need input data that fails for you.
2017-02-04T13:37:14Z nelder: where i can find different tasks for training lisp programming?
2017-02-04T13:38:17Z beach: nelder: It depends what kind of tasks you want.  The exercises in a book are good for practice.
2017-02-04T13:38:36Z beach: nelder: There are also a few web sites that some people here consult for such stuff.
2017-02-04T13:38:39Z phoe: nelder: 99 Lisp Problems, Lisp Koans.
2017-02-04T13:38:53Z phoe: Trying to understand actual Lisp code.
2017-02-04T13:39:15Z beach: nelder: If you want something more useful, you could contribute to some of the projects that people here create or maintain.
2017-02-04T13:42:59Z jurov: *sigh* thoroughly frustrated by debugging hunchensocket app in slime... writing to *debug-io* does nothing, trace does nothing despite the method evidently gets called ...
2017-02-04T13:43:15Z jurov: any suggestions pls?
2017-02-04T13:44:53Z jackdaniel: jurov: log4cl maybe? you can then configure where you want your log messages
2017-02-04T13:45:16Z jackdaniel: (despite some kinky bindings to standard streams)
2017-02-04T13:45:56Z jurov: jackdaniel: so you say instead of above standard facilities i should throw another library into the mix? :(
2017-02-04T13:46:36Z jackdaniel: jurov: yes. Eventually you may define your own stream, cl-user:*my-console*, bind it from your console to the *standard-output* and write to it from hunchentoot
2017-02-04T13:46:47Z jackdaniel: then you have guaranteed that it won't rebind your stream
2017-02-04T13:46:53Z jackdaniel: (because it doesn't even know its name)
2017-02-04T13:47:34Z jurov: okay, i can see it messing with *debug-io* but wtf it does to *trace-output*, too?
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2017-02-04T13:48:18Z jackdaniel: if it is run in a separate thread, it may not even mess with them, they may be just bound to something else (for instance – inferior lisp streams, not slime)
2017-02-04T13:48:28Z phoe: ^
2017-02-04T13:48:49Z jurov: yep, i have looked to inferior-lisp buffer, nothing there either
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2017-02-04T13:50:00Z impaktor: I want to look at documentation of gsll:settingp. I'm not sure how to find it, as it isn't a function or variable:
2017-02-04T13:50:01Z impaktor:  (documentation #'gsll:settingp 'function) gives error
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2017-02-04T13:54:12Z phoe: impaktor: try to look into the source code.
2017-02-04T13:55:20Z myrkraverk: phoe: I gave input data in the comment, I think.
2017-02-04T13:55:25Z myrkraverk: Or did that fail?
2017-02-04T13:55:41Z jurov: thanks jackdaniel (bit hard to believe that everyone debugging hunchentoot stuff has to dutifully add logging every time, but i'm still newbie and lisp is weird)
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2017-02-04T13:56:20Z phoe: myrkraverk: ooooh right.
2017-02-04T13:56:24Z phoe: Lemme try.
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2017-02-04T13:56:51Z myrkraverk: I think you need to properly close it, and feed (car data) to the function.
2017-02-04T13:57:08Z phoe: myrkraverk: ...
2017-02-04T13:57:11Z phoe: there are no strings there.
2017-02-04T13:57:17Z myrkraverk: I'm gonna try this data too, manually, without going through html5-parser.
2017-02-04T13:57:21Z jackdaniel: jurov: hunchentoot's documentation has a section on debugging it
2017-02-04T13:57:32Z myrkraverk: Oh, I was in a hurry, everything printed is a string.
2017-02-04T13:57:33Z jackdaniel: I think that's a first place people usually skim
2017-02-04T13:57:55Z phoe: myrkraverk: I get NIL when I feed it there.
2017-02-04T13:58:06Z myrkraverk: I grabbed it directly from my debugging (FORAMTA T ...)
2017-02-04T13:58:08Z phoe: do I need to turn everything into strings in that data?
2017-02-04T13:58:26Z myrkraverk: I think so.  I'll do it myself too, so you don't have to.
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2017-02-04T13:59:00Z phoe: myrkraverk: yes.
2017-02-04T13:59:05Z phoe: (WRITE-STRING NIL 0)
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2017-02-04T13:59:45Z phoe: Weird, ETYPECASEs don't help either.
2017-02-04T14:00:47Z myrkraverk: I annotated it with a proper test case.
2017-02-04T14:01:42Z phoe: myrkraverk: (PARSE '("span" (("class" "bar")) "fail"))
2017-02-04T14:01:45Z phoe: this returns NIL.
2017-02-04T14:01:48Z myrkraverk: I /thought/ it would simplify things to make it recursive, because (obviously) spans can nest.  But no.  It just fails spectacularly.
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2017-02-04T14:02:00Z myrkraverk: I see.
2017-02-04T14:02:14Z phoe: Hahaha, I see.
2017-02-04T14:02:24Z phoe: It expects to find a "p" in there.
2017-02-04T14:02:36Z myrkraverk: Oh yeah.
2017-02-04T14:02:38Z phoe: It fails inside the COND.
2017-02-04T14:02:46Z myrkraverk: Thanks for figuring that out.
2017-02-04T14:02:54Z phoe: You want to split that into subfunctions.
2017-02-04T14:02:55Z myrkraverk: I was at my wits end -- and the gym was about to close.
2017-02-04T14:02:57Z phoe: No problem.
2017-02-04T14:02:57Z myrkraverk: Yes.
2017-02-04T14:03:19Z phoe: You owe me ten brackets.
2017-02-04T14:03:48Z phoe: s/brackets/parens/
2017-02-04T14:04:09Z myrkraverk: Haha, lol.
2017-02-04T14:04:47Z myrkraverk: phoe: I'll send you ten parens if you give me a physical address to deliver them to.
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2017-02-04T14:05:41Z phoe: myrkraverk: will you be at the ELS?
2017-02-04T14:05:58Z myrkraverk: No, I don't travel.
2017-02-04T14:06:10Z phoe: Okay, 14:2d:27:ef:04:f3
2017-02-04T14:06:21Z phoe: That's the physical address of my WiFi card.
2017-02-04T14:06:42Z myrkraverk: Oh, well; in that case, I have to take arin check.  I don't know how to find yoru wifi card ;p
2017-02-04T14:06:56Z myrkraverk: *you
2017-02-04T14:07:07Z phoe: Well, you wanted a physical address.
2017-02-04T14:08:14Z myrkraverk: Yes. I really meant something like a postal address.  I know how to deliver to those.
2017-02-04T14:08:43Z myrkraverk: I don't have a botnet I can query for physical wifi cards.
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2017-02-04T14:10:49Z jackdaniel: myrkraverk: psst, use query– /msg phoe {{{{{}}}}}
2017-02-04T14:10:53Z jackdaniel: he wants brackets, right?
2017-02-04T14:10:58Z myrkraverk: C:
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2017-02-04T14:14:06Z phoe: jackdaniel: that's braces
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2017-02-04T14:14:46Z jackdaniel: or curly brackets, no?
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2017-02-04T14:16:20Z myrkraverk: /msg phoe [[[[[]]]]] ((((())))) should cover anything eles.
2017-02-04T14:17:02Z shka: <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2017-02-04T14:17:06Z shka: also those
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2017-02-04T14:42:07Z jurov: jackdaniel: I actually read hunchentoot debugging section. My general issue is that tracing and debug-io don't work for no apparent reason (and it's not mentioned in the doc),  you say I shouldn't expect them to work?
2017-02-04T14:42:18Z jurov: What is the general philosophy?
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2017-02-04T14:45:07Z jurov: At least break works, yay. (But to add insult to injury, *debug-io* is indeed bound to some slime-*-stream in that thread...)
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2017-02-04T16:02:29Z malice: hi all
2017-02-04T16:03:20Z phoe: malice: yo
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2017-02-04T16:18:02Z beach: Hello malice.
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2017-02-04T17:13:31Z ferada: hi all, might be a stretch, but can someone put me in touch with crategus (for cl-cffi-gtk)?
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2017-02-04T17:18:58Z phoe: ferada: https://github.com/crategus
2017-02-04T17:19:13Z phoe: Either use the mail address found there or file an issue if https://github.com/crategus/cl-cffi-gtk/issues if it's project-specific.
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2017-02-04T17:20:42Z ferada: phoe: i should clarify that i tried both of that
2017-02-04T17:21:00Z ferada: and there hasn't been activity on it for a year
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2017-02-04T17:23:11Z phoe: ferada: woop
2017-02-04T17:23:18Z phoe: I'd consider the project abandoned then.
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2017-02-04T17:25:09Z ferada: kinda yes
2017-02-04T17:25:13Z phoe: I see people have forked it, including you.
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2017-02-04T17:28:09Z ferada: yes; so except for maintenance, which i could and can find some time for, i was curious about some things
2017-02-04T17:28:50Z ferada: that is, where, if any, code was autogenerated and docstrings
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2017-02-04T17:29:12Z ferada: but that's beside the point, it'd be great to get some first hand input on that
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2017-02-04T17:32:26Z MrLawrence: Hello there, I came across this article http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/guest/chap5.html wonder what your thoughts are on it
2017-02-04T17:32:43Z pjb: Ｗｈｙ? Ｄｏｎ'ｔ ｙｏｕ ｈａｖｅ ｙｏｕｒ ｏｗｎ ｔｈｏｕｇｈｔｓ?
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2017-02-04T17:35:44Z MrLawrence: no
2017-02-04T17:36:28Z phoe: pjb: oh gods
2017-02-04T17:37:01Z phoe: pjb: no offense, but this is exactly the reason people consider the Lisp community unfriendly and unwelcome
2017-02-04T17:37:56Z phoe: MrLawrence: thoughts on which idea exactly? Lisp not being functional?
2017-02-04T17:38:01Z pjb: I ⒟⒪⒩'⒯ ⒦⒩⒪⒲, ⒲⒠ ⒜⒧⒲⒜⒴⒮ ⒢⒠⒯ ⒫⒭⒜⒤⒮⒠⒮ ⒜⒝⒪⒰⒯ ⒣⒪⒲ ⒡⒭⒤⒠⒩⒟⒧⒴ ⒲⒠ ⒜⒭⒠…
2017-02-04T17:38:34Z MrLawrence: #lisp is great, compared to places like ##c
2017-02-04T17:38:37Z Bike: MrLawrence: the g! stuff in let over lambda is still broken. i guess the thrust of the article is fine
2017-02-04T17:38:47Z phoe: pjb: no, I've seen articles and comments on the web stating otherwise.
2017-02-04T17:38:55Z phoe: MrLawrence: which part exactly? Lisp not being a functional language?
2017-02-04T17:39:01Z ferada: Bike: what's broken about it?
2017-02-04T17:39:13Z jackdaniel: MrLawrence: Common Lisp is multiparadigm language
2017-02-04T17:39:26Z Bike: it relies on nonstandard behavior which makes it break in sbcl, and i've had to explain this to new people here several times
2017-02-04T17:39:30Z jackdaniel: you may write in it in functional style, but mutation is nothing extraordinary
2017-02-04T17:39:37Z jackdaniel: and commonly used
2017-02-04T17:39:45Z phoe: ferada: AFAIR, some code from LOL assumes that backquotes/unquotes create a tree of conses.
2017-02-04T17:40:00Z MrLawrence: phoe, yeah that's what the article claims, basically saying Lisp shouldn't be grouped with other functional languages
2017-02-04T17:40:00Z pjb: and exists even in haskell in the form of monads.
2017-02-04T17:40:13Z phoe: so `(foo ,bar) turns into something like (internal:backquote (foo (internal:quasiquote (bar)))).
2017-02-04T17:40:24Z MrLawrence: most people who don't use Lisp will answer functional when asked about its paradigm
2017-02-04T17:40:26Z ferada: k sure
2017-02-04T17:40:30Z pjb: Obviously, lisp has to be grouped in its how category…
2017-02-04T17:40:32Z phoe: MrLawrence: Lisp is not a functional language though. Common Lisp is multiparadigm.
2017-02-04T17:40:58Z MrLawrence: yeah that's what I was thinking
2017-02-04T17:41:21Z phoe: Functional? Sure, no problem. Object-oriented? Sure, no problem. Asynchronous? Sure, no problem. Imperative? Sure, no problem. Actor-based? Sure, no problem. Linear? (TAGBODY 10 (PRINT "HELLO") 20 (GO 10)).
2017-02-04T17:41:25Z Bike: partly because of historically weak ideas of "functional", partly because most people know lisp as a scheme implementation they used for a few weeks in college, and scheme is somewhat less aggressive about mutating things
2017-02-04T17:41:32Z phoe: ^
2017-02-04T17:42:03Z phoe: A lot of confusion with Scheme and (as of late) Clojure, both of which put a lot of weight on the functional usage of the languages.
2017-02-04T17:42:23Z jackdaniel: phoe: being functional is more about constraints language puts on you. You can (if you try really, really hard), write functional code in C
2017-02-04T17:42:38Z jackdaniel: but in that sense CL is definetely not functional
2017-02-04T17:42:44Z phoe: jackdaniel: yes, I know. Function pointers are here. ;D
2017-02-04T17:43:08Z phoe: But seriously, about a week ago a guy asked me on the kraklisp youtube channel whether Clojure is a good JVM implementation of Common Lisp.
2017-02-04T17:43:20Z Bike: "no". see, easy.
2017-02-04T17:43:30Z jackdaniel: it is! CL-ojure :-)
2017-02-04T17:43:52Z phoe: Bike: yes, I know, I answered, explained and elaborated on that.
2017-02-04T17:44:10Z phoe: but the confusion is out there, and it affects CL.
2017-02-04T17:44:32Z Bike: "closures" in C in the form of a function pointer and a void* aren't actually that bad. cheaper syntax for it would be nice, but unfortunately, as you already know, the preprocessor
2017-02-04T17:44:49Z doesthiswork: would you prefer to say it is disfunctional?
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2017-02-04T17:45:00Z phoe: doesthiswork: oh gods
2017-02-04T17:45:02Z Bike: i'm not that snarky
2017-02-04T17:45:52Z doesthiswork: nonfunctional?
2017-02-04T17:46:20Z phoe: function-free™
2017-02-04T17:47:53Z doesthiswork: maybe for every function killed we can donate a dollar to preserve wild functions in their natural haibitat
2017-02-04T17:48:21Z phoe: gods, this is #lispcafe material
2017-02-04T17:48:32Z shka: Bike: this reminds me of windows ldap api
2017-02-04T17:48:48Z shka: or scratch that, that would be certificate validation api
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2017-02-04T17:48:59Z Bike: i don't know what that is, but function plus void* is pretty common. like, most posix callbacks
2017-02-04T17:49:02Z shka: you pass a function pointer, but no void*
2017-02-04T17:49:04Z jackdaniel: Bike: that's more or less what ECL does
2017-02-04T17:49:09Z shka: that was freaking mess
2017-02-04T17:49:33Z jackdaniel: closures take additional lex argument
2017-02-04T17:49:35Z jackdaniel: with the env
2017-02-04T17:50:47Z jackdaniel: (at least in C compiler, bytecodes works a bit differently)
2017-02-04T17:50:53Z jackdaniel: s/works/work/
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2017-02-04T17:59:51Z phoe: I need some help with writing a proper abstract for my paper.
2017-02-04T17:59:58Z phoe: So it's more of an abstract and less of a teaser.
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2017-02-04T18:03:43Z MrLawrence: Guys is there a way to call functions infix in lisp neatly?
2017-02-04T18:04:09Z Bike: nah.
2017-02-04T18:04:19Z Bike: i mean, you can write reader macros and stuff, but i wouldn't call it neat.
2017-02-04T18:04:37Z pjb: phoe: imagine: elevator pitch, but he only goes up two flats.
2017-02-04T18:04:56Z pjb: MrLawrence: you can write a macro for that.
2017-02-04T18:04:58Z Bike: phoe: you wrote the rest of it first, right?
2017-02-04T18:05:18Z pjb: MrLawrence: it grows old faster than you can write the macro.
2017-02-04T18:06:05Z pjb: (defmacro infix (arg1 fun &rest other-args) `(,fun ,arg1 ,@other-args))   (infix  1 + 2) #| --> 3 |#
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2017-02-04T18:06:34Z pjb: You can make it more sophisticated too.
2017-02-04T18:06:41Z MrLawrence: would it be possible to do something like {1 > 2} -> (> 1 2) ?
2017-02-04T18:06:50Z pjb: Sure.
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2017-02-04T18:07:22Z MrLawrence: (or {1 > 2} nil) --> nil
2017-02-04T18:07:31Z pjb: MrLawrence: you can implement any syntax you want. This has been done for various syntaxes such as python, pascal, C, fortran.
2017-02-04T18:07:48Z pjb: There's really no difficulty in it, just write a parser and hook it in.
2017-02-04T18:08:04Z pjb: There's just no point in doing that.
2017-02-04T18:08:35Z pjb: Well, the only valid reason you'd do that is if you had a paying customer who'd want to use a lisp REPL with his own syntax.
2017-02-04T18:08:46Z pjb: It never occurs.
2017-02-04T18:09:13Z MrLawrence: you can make money writing lisp? lol
2017-02-04T18:09:37Z pjb: Yes, it's possible. Some do.
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2017-02-04T18:12:48Z shka: fun fact
2017-02-04T18:13:11Z shka: there was a plan to implement so called M-expressions back at the dawn of lisp
2017-02-04T18:13:42Z shka: so you could write stuff like fun(ction) instead of (fun ction)
2017-02-04T18:13:53Z MrLawrence: Its in the Lisp 1.5 document thingie right? I tried reading it once but my eyes fell off before finishing it
2017-02-04T18:14:13Z shka: at this point everybody just like s-expressions better
2017-02-04T18:14:34Z shka: MrLawrence: well, it is interesting reading if your into history of programming language
2017-02-04T18:14:38Z shka: ;-)
2017-02-04T18:14:45Z shka: other than that, no point
2017-02-04T18:14:55Z doesthiswork: also lists  couldn't contain functions
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2017-02-04T18:34:43Z phoe: Bike: yes.
2017-02-04T18:35:07Z phoe: I already wrote the whole paper, aside from the introduction.
2017-02-04T18:35:11Z phoe: oh right, I needed to link you to it.
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2017-02-04T18:36:15Z phoe: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/blob/master/paper.pdf I need to fix it up a little bit.
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2017-02-04T19:05:08Z ebrasca: phoe: org-mode can export html. (clus)
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2017-02-04T19:09:37Z phoe: ebrasca-afk: I need this formatted in TeX.
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2017-02-04T19:12:16Z impaktor: Hmm, not quite there yet with my GSLL endeavor: https://github.com/impaktor/gsll-fit/blob/master/leastsq.lisp
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2017-02-04T19:13:06Z impaktor: Seems like the (polynomial) function I want to minimize gets a single number rather than some structure (list, array, vector) of two: (x y)
2017-02-04T19:13:08Z impaktor: ...as input
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2017-02-04T19:35:35Z shka: impaktor: what is the argument than?
2017-02-04T19:41:29Z impaktor: 1.0d0
2017-02-04T19:42:31Z impaktor: shka: debugger says called with arg: SB-PCL::ARGS = (1.0d0)
2017-02-04T19:42:56Z shka: impaktor: oh man, optimize for debug
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2017-02-04T19:43:08Z shka: it helps so much to figure out what is going on
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2017-02-04T19:43:50Z shka: as for problem at hand, i don't know and i'm going afk
2017-02-04T19:44:04Z shka: about debug
2017-02-04T19:44:09Z impaktor: OK, thanks.
2017-02-04T19:44:24Z impaktor: "optimize"?
2017-02-04T19:44:26Z shka: slap (declaim (optimize debug)) somewhere before all your functions
2017-02-04T19:44:37Z impaktor: OK.
2017-02-04T19:44:38Z shka: and recompile file
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2017-02-04T19:44:57Z shka: you will get more reasonable debugger output
2017-02-04T19:45:14Z shka: ah, also you may want to use trace
2017-02-04T19:45:23Z shka: or even better: fancy trace from slime
2017-02-04T19:45:31Z shka: (which is really, really good)
2017-02-04T19:45:45Z shka: and one last tip
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2017-02-04T19:46:30Z shka: if you don't know how (break) works: it is more or less breakpoint that will let debugger inspect values
2017-02-04T19:46:42Z impaktor: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338200
2017-02-04T19:46:54Z shka: stepping in sbcl does not work as far i know
2017-02-04T19:47:13Z shka: well that would be all
2017-02-04T19:47:18Z impaktor: OK.
2017-02-04T19:47:23Z shka: perhaps you may want to also read slime debugger manual
2017-02-04T19:47:25Z shka: sldb
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2017-02-04T19:47:48Z shka: it allows you to set values, go back in stack and so one
2017-02-04T19:47:50Z impaktor: This: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Debugger.html
2017-02-04T19:47:55Z shka: yes!
2017-02-04T19:48:07Z shka: press e to get prompt
2017-02-04T19:48:14Z shka: you can evaluate things there
2017-02-04T19:48:17Z impaktor: Seems like there's a lot of power behind all this cryptic stuff.
2017-02-04T19:48:23Z shka: like (setf something 'something)
2017-02-04T19:48:37Z shka: i wouldn't call it power
2017-02-04T19:48:45Z shka: but it is very helpful
2017-02-04T19:48:49Z impaktor: I can imagine.
2017-02-04T19:49:02Z impaktor: Thanks. I'll see what I can untangle.
2017-02-04T19:49:16Z shka: i wanted just to point out this now, because it just will save your time
2017-02-04T19:49:51Z shka: (i wish i knew that sldb can do all those things from day 0)
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2017-02-04T19:51:08Z shka: well, sorry that i can't aid you more
2017-02-04T19:51:19Z shka: but you should figure this out
2017-02-04T19:53:01Z impaktor: Help to self help is valuable.
2017-02-04T19:53:12Z impaktor: give a man a fishing rod...
2017-02-04T19:53:16Z impaktor: ..rather than fish.
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2017-02-04T20:52:07Z dim: you can also add (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'debug 3) to ~/.sbclrc
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2017-02-04T21:08:58Z drmeister: What's another respectable implementation of Common Lisp to compare timing data for?   I've got ECL and SBCL.   clisp?
2017-02-04T21:09:54Z jackdaniel: ccl
2017-02-04T21:09:57Z drmeister: ccl
2017-02-04T21:10:50Z Bike: definitely ccl.
2017-02-04T21:10:51Z jackdaniel: abcl will be nice too for comparison I think
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2017-02-04T21:33:46Z dim: ccl indeed
2017-02-04T21:34:23Z dim: th GC is so much better than SBCL's one (I feel like I am in repeat mode whenever I now say that)
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2017-02-04T21:37:46Z dim: here I can't start ECL because of #include "gmp.h" failing, despite brew (macosx) being happy about its install...
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2017-02-04T21:51:13Z phoe: drmeister: Allegro CL and LispWorks, since I consider then respectable while being commercial.
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2017-02-04T22:08:05Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Do you use the makefile?    I find when I run 'make' in these latex directories it always hangs.  Even 'make -n' - my go to makefile debugging reaction hangs.
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2017-02-04T22:08:43Z drmeister: make clean hangs  - wth
2017-02-04T22:12:26Z drmeister: It doesn't like this line: TEXFILES=$(NAME).tex $(shell ./tex-dependencies $(NAME).tex)
2017-02-04T22:15:16Z TruePika: is there a way to define a custom printer for a type?
2017-02-04T22:15:28Z drmeister: print-object?
2017-02-04T22:15:39Z Bike: print object methods, pprint tables, and i think there's one more way too
2017-02-04T22:15:40Z TruePika: that will work for custom types as well?
2017-02-04T22:16:15Z Bike: yeah
2017-02-04T22:16:21Z TruePika: hm, pprint is probably what I'd want to use
2017-02-04T22:16:28Z Bike: are you really sure
2017-02-04T22:16:47Z TruePika: My use scenario is automatic formatting of a FIXNUM-based custom type
2017-02-04T22:17:15Z TruePika: or meh, I should just use a regular function for formatting it
2017-02-04T22:17:19Z Bike: if it's a class or struct you probably want to use print objectr
2017-02-04T22:18:05Z TruePika: nope, not a class or struct
2017-02-04T22:18:24Z TruePika: but again, now I think I might as well just call a function directly
2017-02-04T22:18:41Z TruePika: since math operations will return something like a FIXNUM and not the custom type
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2017-02-04T22:19:39Z Bike: what kind of thing is your custom type then
2017-02-04T22:20:02Z TruePika: it would be a currency amount, of base type FIXNUM
2017-02-04T22:20:14Z TruePika: but requiring special formatting based on magnitudes, etc.
2017-02-04T22:20:22Z Bike: okay but like how are you making this happen. what is it represented as.
2017-02-04T22:20:52Z TruePika: I'm just using a FIXNUM and a custom function instead of running it through a dispatch
2017-02-04T22:21:11Z Bike: ok. i see. yes.
2017-02-04T22:26:50Z TruePika: why isn't there a CL-defined function for (CDR (ASSOC)) ?
2017-02-04T22:27:53Z phoe: cdr assoc?
2017-02-04T22:27:56Z phoe: TruePika: what do you mean?
2017-02-04T22:28:02Z phoe: oh, I see
2017-02-04T22:28:21Z phoe: I don't know, I frequently define CDR ASSOC and CAR RASSOC in my utils.
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2017-02-04T22:29:31Z Bike: alexandria has assoc-value, which works like gethash (and you can setf it)
2017-02-04T22:29:52Z phoe: Bike: yes, I was looking for it in alexandria.
2017-02-04T22:30:43Z phoe: What's even funnier, this function isn't mentioned in the manual.
2017-02-04T22:30:48Z phoe: The Alexandria manual, I mean.
2017-02-04T22:31:40Z TruePika: is it exported?
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2017-02-04T22:34:31Z Bike: yeah, the manual is just slow.
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2017-02-04T22:35:08Z phoe: Bike: s/the manual/Lisp world/
2017-02-04T22:35:23Z Bike: i don't know what you're getting at.
2017-02-04T22:35:33Z phoe: Things tend to happen slow in the Lisp world.
2017-02-04T22:36:15Z TruePika: (proclaim (optimize (speed 3))) ;  :D
2017-02-04T22:36:20Z phoe: TruePika: xD
2017-02-04T22:36:27Z Bike: are you just making a vaguely related general statement
2017-02-04T22:36:33Z phoe: yes.
2017-02-04T22:38:21Z edgar-rft: There was a time when Lisp things happened so fast that a Common Lisp standard had to be created to end the chaos. Who would like this to happen again?
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2017-02-04T22:39:57Z Xach: The CL standard was a way to ensure that people working on Lisp projects could get fat checks from one huge customer.
2017-02-04T22:40:01Z TruePika: meh, and I thought the SBCL debugger was bad
2017-02-04T22:40:06Z phoe: edgar-rft: I'm actually editing the standard right now so actually time for Common Lisp 2.0: Electric Boogaloo might be closer than you think.
2017-02-04T22:40:14Z TruePika: CCL feels even worse
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2017-02-04T22:40:54Z phoe: TruePika: why?
2017-02-04T22:41:08Z TruePika: ;   In an anonymous lambda form at position 1548:
2017-02-04T22:41:30Z TruePika in Vim: "gg1548 "
2017-02-04T22:41:42Z prxq: debuggers aren't really lisp's strongest point
2017-02-04T22:41:42Z TruePika arrives in the middle of a function name
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2017-02-04T22:42:23Z TruePika: position 1548 apparently isn't character 1548
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2017-02-04T22:44:57Z TruePika: or hmm
2017-02-04T22:45:29Z TruePika does research, since character 1548 actually is the start of a form
2017-02-04T22:45:56Z edgar-rft: AFAIK position is byte number 1548, with mult-byte characters this is *not* character number 1548
2017-02-04T22:46:00Z Bike: likely it just means the lambda is in that form somewhere
2017-02-04T22:46:09Z TruePika: meh, I see CR/LF in the hexdump
2017-02-04T22:46:33Z TruePika: that's what I get for using Windows right now
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2017-02-04T22:47:48Z TruePika: oh, apparently it is just "1548go"
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2017-02-04T22:53:01Z aeth: TruePika: No, you want this: (proclaim (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) ; move fast and break things
2017-02-04T22:53:42Z aeth: And actually, you need to quote optimize for some reason because proclaim for some reason has different syntax than declare
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2017-02-04T22:56:42Z TruePika: maybe I meant declaim?
2017-02-04T22:56:43Z aeth: I guess it's one of the many little inconsistencies in CL (when to quote vs when not to), probably more annoying than argument order inconsistencies (at least SLIME tells you the variable names)
2017-02-04T22:57:00Z TruePika: ah yes, ELT versus NTH
2017-02-04T22:57:41Z phoe: aeth: no, why?
2017-02-04T22:57:51Z phoe: proclaim is a function, declaim is a macro.
2017-02-04T22:58:01Z aeth: TruePika: or gethash vs getf iirc
2017-02-04T22:58:05Z phoe: and declare is a symbol, hehehe.
2017-02-04T22:59:12Z Bike: argument order is pretty consistent even though it hardly ever matters...
2017-02-04T22:59:25Z Bike: oh, that kind of argument order
2017-02-04T22:59:32Z aeth: phoe: It is not obvious in the language when something is a macro, a function, a method, or even a special generic not-method function (e.g. +), etc.
2017-02-04T22:59:51Z phoe: aeth: that's right.
2017-02-04T22:59:51Z TruePika has CLQR for that
2017-02-04T22:59:52Z aeth: Well, besides a few things like mapfoo is probably a function and do-foo is probably a macro
2017-02-04T23:01:33Z aeth: Really, the only way to tell a macro is by certain words like define-foo, do-foo, with-foo, etc.
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2017-02-04T23:09:02Z PuercoPop: axion: I've tracked the sly bug to paredit calling (check-parens) on enable-paredit-mode
2017-02-04T23:13:20Z PuercoPop: One if is to use smartparens instead ^_^. I wonder if I should give electric-mode a try
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2017-02-05T00:17:53Z TruePika: hehehe, fed up with using Powershell to pull stuff out of Terraria's binary, I've discovered RDNZL
2017-02-05T00:18:15Z TruePika: which should both cut out the middleman and improve my ability to code
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2017-02-05T00:38:25Z TruePika: in CCL, how does one access a signaled condition?
2017-02-05T00:39:28Z Bike: from where, the debugger?
2017-02-05T00:39:32Z TruePika: yeah
2017-02-05T00:39:59Z TruePika: I can't find any information about it
2017-02-05T00:40:10Z TruePika: (it being both the debugger and the condition being signaled)
2017-02-05T00:40:54Z Bike: i don't see anything in the debugger, if you're just using a term. weird.
2017-02-05T00:41:16Z Bike: you can do like (ignore-errors whatever-you-are-doing) if that's possible, to get the condition, of course.
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2017-02-05T00:42:10Z TruePika: hm, maybe I can write a macro which will allow an INSPECT into the condition
2017-02-05T00:42:18Z Bike: in sldb you just hit C
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2017-02-05T00:43:33Z TruePika: or wait, restarts don't take conditions directly
2017-02-05T00:43:42Z TruePika: hmm
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2017-02-05T00:44:01Z pjb: TruePika: if no code handles the condition, then it's forgotten, and signal returns.
2017-02-05T00:44:02Z TruePika: *debugger-hook* might be the solution
2017-02-05T00:44:05Z Bike: (handler-case whatever (error (c) (inspect c)))
2017-02-05T00:44:20Z pjb: (handler-case whatever (condition (c) (inspect c)))
2017-02-05T00:44:30Z pjb: signal will probably be used on non-error conditions.
2017-02-05T00:44:48Z Bike: they said they were in the debugger
2017-02-05T00:45:22Z drmeister: Does the .olisp extension mean anything?
2017-02-05T00:45:52Z pjb: Nothing general.
2017-02-05T00:46:00Z drmeister: I'm trying to get the cl-bench benchmarks working with Clasp and the CL source files all have the extension .lisp   but the build scripts refer to .olisp files.
2017-02-05T00:46:16Z drmeister: sbcl seems to run with everything but ECL fails.
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2017-02-05T00:47:47Z Bike: my make is bad, but i think that that FILES thing makes the .olisp names.
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2017-02-05T00:52:25Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-02-05T00:59:41Z drmeister: Bike: Which FILES thing?
2017-02-05T00:59:49Z Bike: in the makefile.
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2017-02-05T01:00:11Z drmeister: Oh d*mn - I didn't run the makefile.
2017-02-05T01:00:19Z drmeister: I went straight to the CL code.
2017-02-05T01:01:53Z drmeister: We will not win awards for Cleavir's speed.
2017-02-05T01:02:25Z TruePika: meh, RDNZL isn't working nicely for me
2017-02-05T01:02:31Z drmeister: Compilation speed.
2017-02-05T01:02:55Z Bike: actually, if you can find some kind of benchmark for compilation speed i'd be interested. maybe uh, not when you have to write this.
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2017-02-05T01:06:36Z TruePika: yup, I just keep getting kernel crashes
2017-02-05T01:06:51Z TruePika: from a foreign stack exception
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2017-02-05T03:29:40Z ebrasca-afk: phoe: tex-mode in emacs https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/TeX-Mode.html .
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2017-02-05T04:36:52Z drmeister: How do I shut down compiler warnings from sbcl?
2017-02-05T04:37:03Z drmeister: I just want it to shut up already.
2017-02-05T04:38:09Z Bike: there's a declaration... uh.... sb-ext:muffle-warnings?
2017-02-05T04:38:19Z Bike: no
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2017-02-05T04:39:07Z Bike: inhibit-warnings. dunno how it works though.
2017-02-05T04:40:06Z Bike: try making it 3 in optimize.
2017-02-05T04:40:47Z drmeister: Thank you
2017-02-05T04:41:22Z drmeister: These ansi tests do go on.
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2017-02-05T05:59:43Z dtornabene: has anyone here used plokami?
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2017-02-05T06:04:42Z Bloodman: hm
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2017-02-05T06:17:50Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-05T06:20:00Z dtornabene: good morning
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2017-02-05T10:18:41Z frodef: 'morning
2017-02-05T10:20:27Z easye: frodef: Morgen.  CONS anything yet today?
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2017-02-05T10:34:38Z axion: PuercoPop: Excellent. I'll see what I can do to fix it
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2017-02-05T10:56:05Z frodef: No consing so far.
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2017-02-05T10:59:32Z axion: Xach: What is the reason for removing com.informatimago from the dists a few versions back?
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2017-02-05T11:31:57Z beach: Hello frodef.
2017-02-05T11:33:13Z beach: frodef: Have you seen this page: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/suggested-projects.html and in particular this one: http://metamodular.com/Common-Lisp/lispos.html that is linked to by the first one?
2017-02-05T11:33:42Z beach: Actually, the PDF is more complete: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2017-02-05T11:46:27Z beach: frodef: Since SICL has first-class global environments, it will be a good basis for such a system.
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2017-02-05T11:54:40Z shka: i wish i could extend lexenv to contain other category of things
2017-02-05T11:56:08Z beach: Like what?
2017-02-05T11:56:37Z shka: for instance if i wanted to implement C++ style templates in common lisp
2017-02-05T11:56:56Z shka: it makes sense for those to be stored in env
2017-02-05T11:57:07Z pjb: as macros.
2017-02-05T11:57:11Z shka: sure
2017-02-05T11:57:18Z shka: as macros
2017-02-05T11:57:46Z shka: but i don't want to always expand type (because it may be already compiled)
2017-02-05T11:58:17Z shka: so what i would need is to have defined templates and defined template instances in lexenv
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2017-02-05T12:00:09Z shka: there could be other uses as well
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2017-02-05T12:00:16Z shka: but that comes to my mind
2017-02-05T12:00:58Z pjb: Well anything you would want to attach lexically to the program.  pre/post conditions, tests, comments, whatever.
2017-02-05T12:01:38Z shka: oh, right
2017-02-05T12:02:11Z shka: well, you get the idea
2017-02-05T12:05:07Z shka: beach: makes sense?
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2017-02-05T12:06:12Z beach: I suppose.  I don't personally see the value of C++-style templates for Common Lisp, but that's probably just me.
2017-02-05T12:06:33Z shka: i had one use case where those could be useful
2017-02-05T12:06:44Z shka: but templates were just any example, really
2017-02-05T12:07:01Z beach: Let me guess, it has to do with using foreign code?
2017-02-05T12:07:06Z shka: no
2017-02-05T12:07:09Z dim: beach: I am reading the lispos doc just now and I must say so far I like it!
2017-02-05T12:07:19Z pjb: Yes, the think is that any lisp function you write is already a generic function, a template.
2017-02-05T12:07:42Z beach: dim: Thanks!
2017-02-05T12:07:43Z shka: it had to do with struct holding vector
2017-02-05T12:08:08Z shka: it was basicly small lookuptable for up to 64 elements
2017-02-05T12:08:10Z pjb: template<T> list<T> addElement(T e,list<T> l){…} == (defun add-element (e l) (cons e l) #|duh|#)
2017-02-05T12:08:27Z pjb: s/think/thing/
2017-02-05T12:08:37Z shka: problem was that specialized vectors worked a lot better
2017-02-05T12:08:52Z shka: but i managed to solve it by creating vector elsewhere
2017-02-05T12:09:10Z pjb: and of the other cases, macros will work better.
2017-02-05T12:10:04Z shka: well, you may just imagine template being just pattern matching macro on type
2017-02-05T12:10:41Z shka: if type is known in the lexenv, it may generate more optimized code
2017-02-05T12:11:19Z shka: for instance: i know that this sequence is in fact vector, so i will not try to use elt
2017-02-05T12:11:42Z shka: bad example probably
2017-02-05T12:11:49Z shka: eh, i should go back to work
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2017-02-05T12:23:47Z dim: beach: 1.3.4 fails to address concurrency, in particular of modifications to the data
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2017-02-05T12:37:24Z phoe: Morning.
2017-02-05T12:38:10Z phoe: ebrasca: I know, thanks.
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2017-02-05T12:46:24Z beach: dim: What do you think I should say about it?
2017-02-05T12:48:01Z beach: Hello phoe.
2017-02-05T12:48:20Z phoe: Hey beach.
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2017-02-05T13:35:30Z dim: beach: that it is part of the objective that is not clearly stated
2017-02-05T13:36:52Z dim: checkpointing and Write Ahead Logs in databases are also about concurrency, usually it is done in a transactionnal safe maneer and provides durability and serialisability
2017-02-05T13:38:44Z beach: OK, thanks.
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2017-02-05T14:06:35Z beach: dim: Something like that: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf (document page 10, PDF page 14)?
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2017-02-05T14:11:25Z phoe: It's a weird feeling to put your previous work in references for your current work in the references of a sciency paper for the first time.
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2017-02-05T14:16:36Z pjb: phoe: scientists even put in references "private communications", so go ahead!
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2017-02-05T14:31:00Z shaftoe: is there an idiomatic way for converting the contents of a class into a hash-table?
2017-02-05T14:31:21Z Xach: shaftoe: no.
2017-02-05T14:31:43Z shaftoe: just checking before i reinvent something that might already exist
2017-02-05T14:31:45Z beach: shaftoe: In what way do you want it to be converted?
2017-02-05T14:31:45Z shaftoe: thanks xach
2017-02-05T14:32:15Z Xach: I can think of certain times that would be useful, but most of the time, it is not great to think of a class as a mapping of slot names to values held in an object.
2017-02-05T14:32:51Z shaftoe: i'm using a class to ensure consistent structure, but i want to convert the contents to json, which i assume will need an intermediary step of converting to a hash table first
2017-02-05T14:33:25Z shaftoe: it's going to contain a bunch of slots and values, nothing fancy
2017-02-05T14:34:05Z beach is lost... as usual.
2017-02-05T14:35:47Z beach: shaftoe: What would be the keys of the hashtable, and what would be the associated values, in terms of the original class?
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2017-02-05T14:36:39Z shaftoe: the class looks like:
2017-02-05T14:36:42Z shaftoe: (defclass message ()
2017-02-05T14:36:44Z shaftoe:   ((topic :initarg :topic)
2017-02-05T14:36:46Z shaftoe:    (event :initarg :event)
2017-02-05T14:37:32Z shaftoe: and i'd like to have a hash table with keys of :topic :event or "topic" "event", either works
2017-02-05T14:37:52Z beach: And what would the associated values be?
2017-02-05T14:38:00Z beach: Slot metaobjects?
2017-02-05T14:38:00Z shaftoe: strings or ints
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2017-02-05T14:38:43Z shaftoe: in some cases, they may be other classes (with similar structure)
2017-02-05T14:38:43Z beach: So you mean converting each INSTANCE of a class to a hash table, and not converting THE CLASS itself to a hashtable?
2017-02-05T14:38:49Z shaftoe: correct
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2017-02-05T14:38:58Z beach: No wonder I was lost.
2017-02-05T14:39:10Z shaftoe: you jumped to a conclusion and jumped a little too far
2017-02-05T14:39:27Z shaftoe: i also wasn't specific enough
2017-02-05T14:39:31Z beach: No, I just read what you said and took it to be what you meant.
2017-02-05T14:39:41Z phoe: shaftoe: so, CLOS to JSON.
2017-02-05T14:40:28Z phoe: looks like a case for CL-JSON.
2017-02-05T14:40:45Z shaftoe: are we punning or you being serious?
2017-02-05T14:40:48Z shaftoe: :P
2017-02-05T14:41:02Z shaftoe checks quickdocs
2017-02-05T14:41:30Z phoe: no, I'm serious.
2017-02-05T14:41:53Z phoe: Employing MOP, you can use SLOT-DEFINITION-NAME over CLASS-SLOTS to get the names of the slots.
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2017-02-05T14:42:26Z phoe: Once you have it, you have your JSON keys. You can use SLOT-VALUE to access the values of a particular instance of a class.
2017-02-05T14:42:46Z phoe: And once you have it, you can put the data in an alist, which is something CL-JSON can use as input.
2017-02-05T14:42:55Z shaftoe: nice
2017-02-05T14:43:01Z shaftoe: thank you kindly
2017-02-05T14:44:09Z phoe: And CL-JSON will print JSON for you.
2017-02-05T14:44:22Z phoe: The other way around is very non-trivial.
2017-02-05T14:44:57Z phoe: beach: does CLOS/MOP support adding slots to *instances*, not *classes*?
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2017-02-05T14:45:30Z phoe: Like, I have an instance of some class. Can I force that instance to have an additional slot without adding it to all other instances of the class?
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2017-02-05T14:57:12Z phoe: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/234693935216197634/277814843023687680/clus.pdf <- The WIP of my paper.
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2017-02-05T14:59:10Z beach: phoe: No, it does not.  There are other object systems that do, though.  Sheeple, I think.
2017-02-05T15:01:36Z phoe: beach: got it.
2017-02-05T15:01:58Z phoe: So JSON -> CLOS is pretty much impossible because of the differences between the two object systems.
2017-02-05T15:02:16Z phoe: In the general case, I mean.
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2017-02-05T15:28:58Z phoe: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/234693935216197634/277822140932161537/clus.pdf <- Release candidate version 1.
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2017-02-05T15:30:08Z drmeister: I wonder if someone could confirm this:   When assembling the effective method, does CLOS accumulate all of the methods as method forms -> assemble an effective method form -> compile that effective method form.
2017-02-05T15:31:07Z beach: That would not be correct in general.
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2017-02-05T16:02:43Z ebrasca: phoe: How are you?
2017-02-05T16:02:59Z phoe: ebrasca: I'm okay. You?
2017-02-05T16:03:51Z ebrasca: phoe: I am okay , I study org-mode for planing.
2017-02-05T16:04:11Z phoe: And I've just submitted the paper for ELS.
2017-02-05T16:04:19Z phoe: The first in my life.
2017-02-05T16:04:21Z phoe: Woah.
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2017-02-05T16:05:38Z ebrasca: I like make some lisp metting some day.
2017-02-05T16:05:54Z phoe: We might. We just need to figure out when.
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2017-02-05T16:15:02Z beach: ebrasca: I suggest you go to ELS this year.
2017-02-05T16:15:21Z ebrasca: beach: ELS ??
2017-02-05T16:15:40Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: european lisp symposium
2017-02-05T16:16:15Z pjb: http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/editions/2017/
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2017-02-05T16:32:24Z Xach gets self-contained sha-512 working
2017-02-05T16:32:29Z ebrasca: Is it needed register?
2017-02-05T16:32:45Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: yes, and there is an entrance fee
2017-02-05T16:32:57Z jackdaniel: it's cheaper for students though
2017-02-05T16:33:04Z ebrasca: 1 day for register ...
2017-02-05T16:33:23Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: 1 day for paper submission, early register is until march
2017-02-05T16:33:24Z jackdaniel: no worries
2017-02-05T16:33:40Z jackdaniel: (13 march I think, but don't really remember)
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2017-02-05T16:41:06Z PuercoPop: phoe: you could create a subclass with just that slot and change the specific instance class
2017-02-05T16:42:32Z PuercoPop: phoe: or you could just add the slot to the class and have a sigil value similar to unbound that hides it from your own class-slots. If you follow that approach it may be a good idea to use the sparse slots shown in the AMOP
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2017-02-05T17:38:25Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: father don't pay ...
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2017-02-05T17:39:41Z ebrasca: If I can I will go to ELS.
2017-02-05T17:40:12Z ebrasca: jackdaniel: Thanks you.
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2017-02-05T17:41:16Z ebrasca: beach: pjb: Thanks you.
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2017-02-05T18:19:56Z Xach: the www.quicklisp.org server was updated painlessly yesterday. downtime was only a minute or two.
2017-02-05T18:20:05Z Xach: software raid 1 did its job.
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2017-02-05T18:27:14Z axion: Xach: just wondering why i have to pull pjb's repo manually
2017-02-05T18:28:28Z Xach: axion: It stopped building
2017-02-05T18:29:02Z axion: ah bummer
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2017-02-05T19:24:55Z phoe: axion: CLUS paper was submitted.
2017-02-05T19:25:03Z phoe: We'll see whether I get to show it at the ELS.
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2017-02-05T19:25:38Z frodef: beach: nice writeup!
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2017-02-05T19:45:39Z malice: Hi, I want to quickload a project. How can I add a path to the project or its parent folder from within Lisp image?
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2017-02-05T19:46:14Z phoe: malice: the simple way first.
2017-02-05T19:46:23Z phoe: Why is your project not in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ ?
2017-02-05T19:47:39Z malice: phoe: that's irrelevant
2017-02-05T19:47:48Z malice: because it's not my machine
2017-02-05T19:48:00Z Xach: malice: one easy way is to push the directory to asdf:*central-registry*
2017-02-05T19:48:15Z malice: Xach: I tried that, but don't I need to run something else too?
2017-02-05T19:48:27Z Xach: malice: I don't think so. What happened when you tried it?
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2017-02-05T19:48:50Z malice: system not found, but let me double check
2017-02-05T19:49:08Z Xach: malice: after you add to asdf:*central-registry*, try (asdf:find-system "your-system") and see what happens.
2017-02-05T19:49:25Z Xach: I think it may be important to have a trailing slash on the pathname you add.
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2017-02-05T19:54:39Z malice: Xach: this might sound stupid, but could you please remind me if I'm doing things okay?
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2017-02-05T19:54:50Z malice: I added /some/dir/ to asdf:*central-registry*
2017-02-05T19:54:59Z malice: my project is under some/dir/NaMe/
2017-02-05T19:55:06Z malice: and under some/dir/NaMe/ there's some.asd
2017-02-05T19:55:08Z Xach: malice: you must add the full path, not a parent.
2017-02-05T19:55:14Z malice: okay
2017-02-05T19:55:37Z malice: great, now it works. Thanks a lot :)
2017-02-05T19:55:48Z Xach: asdf will evaluate the value, then construct <value>/<system-name>.asd, and try to load that.
2017-02-05T19:56:06Z Xach: So you could use the symbol my-package:*my-great-path-variable* too
2017-02-05T19:56:35Z Xach: I used to use that to add *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*, but since local-projects I don't.
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2017-02-05T19:57:39Z malice: Sure. Thanks for the help
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2017-02-05T20:09:04Z TruePika: meh, the troubles of Windows
2017-02-05T20:09:35Z TruePika: trying to add CCL to %PATH% as such (`ccl` instead of `wx86cl64`)
2017-02-05T20:10:13Z phoe: TruePika: make a ccl.bat file
2017-02-05T20:10:22Z phoe: which calls wx86cl64 with all arguments it gets
2017-02-05T20:11:47Z TruePika: the trouble is that it _seems_ like CCL tries to load a heap image from pwd with the base name of argv[0]
2017-02-05T20:12:08Z TruePika: or wait, not PWD
2017-02-05T20:12:32Z TruePika: full path of binary (as invoked)
2017-02-05T20:12:46Z TruePika: which actually would make things a bit more sensical
2017-02-05T20:14:02Z TruePika: yup, batch works
2017-02-05T20:15:01Z TruePika: C:\Users\Chris>ccl  ->  ? (truename #P".") => #P"C:/Users/Chris/"
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2017-02-05T20:15:55Z TruePika: now the main problems with devving without the VM are the nonsensicality of the CCL debugger and how GVim is black-on-white
2017-02-05T20:17:09Z TruePika: also CCL feels a bit slower than SBCL, but SBCL optimizes for execution speed
2017-02-05T20:17:31Z TruePika: so I'm not sure if its a fair comparison
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2017-02-05T20:20:19Z TruePika still wishes he could get a .NET FFI working...
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2017-02-05T20:20:52Z TruePika: it is such a hassle writing Powershell scripts to dump data from Terraria.exe, then reading and structuring the data in Lisp code
2017-02-05T20:21:33Z TruePika: even with a theoretical Lisp compatibility layer inside Powershell
2017-02-05T20:22:09Z TruePika: there are still limits imposed (e.g. the near-impossibility of automatically creating a #1=...#1#)
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2017-02-05T20:37:05Z beach: frodef: Thanks.
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2017-02-05T21:18:51Z TruePika: This is why I don't like dotnet much: `Cannot convert the "ItemQuantity" value of type "ItemQuantity" to type "ItemQuantity".`
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2017-02-05T21:43:04Z BusFactor1: Does anyone know of a good repository for software written using CLIM?
2017-02-05T21:45:24Z phoe: BusFactor1: #clim will know the best.
2017-02-05T21:47:06Z BusFactor1: Thanks, didn't know about that channel.
2017-02-05T21:48:17Z TruePika: BusFactor1: there's almost never any risk to just doing a /join
2017-02-05T21:48:53Z TruePika: (the only risk is if what you're joining is a kline channel, but you shouldn't be trying to join such a channel anyway)
2017-02-05T21:48:53Z phoe: BusFactor1: there are surprisingly many lisp-related channel that even I was/am oblivious of
2017-02-05T21:49:33Z TruePika: for instance, just moments ago I guessed #powershell to try to figure out this weird type-system issue I'm having
2017-02-05T21:50:42Z BusFactor1: Was the software on the Genera written using CLIM?
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2017-02-05T21:52:37Z BusFactor1: Yes, it seems it was....
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2017-02-05T22:54:37Z malice: Oh, I'm dumb.
2017-02-05T22:55:09Z malice: Next time you try to create executable from Lisp code and you either get "illegal sharp character" or some other strange errors
2017-02-05T22:55:15Z pjb: You've already said that.  Repeating it doesn't bring anything new to the table.
2017-02-05T22:55:26Z malice: make sure you provided a :toplevel to sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die
2017-02-05T22:55:41Z malice: pjb: but I hope that whatever I'm saying later will. :)
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2017-02-05T22:56:06Z pjb: Surely, but not repeating that you're dumb.
2017-02-05T22:56:36Z pjb: First, you can type it, so you're less dumb than 99.99999999999999999% of the universe.
2017-02-05T22:56:46Z malice: Next time I'll try to refrain from insulting myself.
2017-02-05T22:56:48Z prxq: some bugs are fixed by time. 40M executable? "It's not the 80's any more!" :-)
2017-02-05T22:58:09Z malice: prxq: doesn't sbcl still produce enormous executables?
2017-02-05T22:58:35Z prxq: well, which cl doesn't?
2017-02-05T22:58:46Z pjb: clisp ecl
2017-02-05T22:58:50Z pjb: even abcl
2017-02-05T22:58:59Z malice: yeah I believe ecl produce quite "small" executables
2017-02-05T22:59:02Z prxq: well, it's not the 80s any more
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2017-02-05T23:02:15Z prxq: the metric is called "bang-for-the-megabyte"
2017-02-05T23:02:25Z malice: pjb: why such a strong reaction for calling me dumb?
2017-02-05T23:12:08Z pjb: again, even the dumbest human is way smarter than most of the living beings.
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2017-02-05T23:13:27Z malice: But I never said that I'm dumber than most of the living beings.
2017-02-05T23:14:42Z pjb: Also, it's not on topic; you should say that in #lispcafe ;-)
2017-02-05T23:15:28Z malice: Right!
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2017-02-05T23:23:42Z sausages: in SBCL, if I use FLET or LABELS within a larger function is there a way to get the asm output of those mini-functions-within to show up in DISASSEMBLE somehow?
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2017-02-05T23:30:29Z Bike: hm... not that i know of.
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2017-02-05T23:35:27Z pjb: Perhaps you can pass the local function designator dumped in the debugger to disassemble?
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2017-02-06T00:27:25Z drmeister: Is there anything in the MOP that specifies what the lambda list of an effective method should look like?
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2017-02-06T00:50:55Z TruePika: for a slot with :ALLOCATION :CLASS, :INITFORM is only evaluated once, right?
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2017-02-06T01:21:32Z drmeister: How does one get the index of a slot in a class?
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2017-02-06T01:24:40Z drmeister: Somehow I need the effective-slot-definition?
2017-02-06T01:24:59Z Bike: mop standard-instance-access
2017-02-06T01:24:59Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/standard-instance-access.html
2017-02-06T01:25:08Z Bike: probably linked sooooomewhere.... nope. great
2017-02-06T01:25:34Z Bike: slot-definition-location.
2017-02-06T01:28:44Z TruePika: meh, apparently CCL requires a function to be defined before it's used
2017-02-06T01:28:48Z TruePika: err
2017-02-06T01:28:51Z TruePika: s/used/referenced/
2017-02-06T01:29:18Z TruePika: though I haven't messed with compilation units to make sure yet
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2017-02-06T01:32:00Z TruePika: nope, compiliation units don't appear to make a difference
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2017-02-06T01:34:17Z drmeister: I  was looking for the index of the slot, not the value given the index.
2017-02-06T01:34:18Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lbSZSsnd/
2017-02-06T01:34:32Z drmeister: Ignore line 2
2017-02-06T01:36:08Z drmeister: I want to write an accessor.
2017-02-06T01:36:48Z drmeister: mop effective-slot-definition
2017-02-06T01:36:48Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-effective-slot-definition.html
2017-02-06T01:37:41Z Bike: i don't remember the difference between direct and effective slot definitions
2017-02-06T01:38:07Z Bike: slot-definition-location works on the effective slot definitions you can get from class-slots, though
2017-02-06T01:39:18Z Bike: or at least it does for me in sbcl.
2017-02-06T01:40:03Z Bike: i assume that direct slot definitions are the basic ones that you can get before inheritance and such is worked out, so it can't have a location
2017-02-06T01:40:15Z shaftoe: using buildapp with sbcl and --compress-core turns 50MB executable into about 13MB
2017-02-06T01:40:17Z Bike: mop accessor-method-slot-definition
2017-02-06T01:40:18Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/accessor-method-slot-definition.html
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2017-02-06T02:03:30Z aeth: Always profile. I wasted time optimizing the wrong part of a function that needed to be faster.
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2017-02-06T02:19:34Z shaftoe: what's the recommended approach for profiling a function
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2017-02-06T03:34:14Z John[Lisbeth]: How would one define a linked list using only lambdas?
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2017-02-06T03:38:45Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_encoding#Two_pairs_as_a_list_node
2017-02-06T03:41:29Z John[Lis`: Is it possible to make ram using just lambdas?
2017-02-06T03:41:49Z Bike: yes
2017-02-06T03:41:53Z Bike: it's just a huge pain in the ass
2017-02-06T03:42:14Z Bike: assuming that by "ram" you mean an addressable memory/array
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2017-02-06T03:45:36Z John[Lis`: yes but a dynamic array
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2017-02-06T03:49:03Z John[Lisbeth]: sorry emacs problems
2017-02-06T03:49:21Z John[Lis`: erc does not behave well
2017-02-06T03:49:43Z John[Lisbeth]: I believe I can read the lambda notation of lambda.x and all this
2017-02-06T03:49:59Z Bike: "dynamic"?
2017-02-06T03:50:17Z John[Lis`: as in an array that is pushable and poppable
2017-02-06T03:51:25Z aeth: shaftoe: There are a lot of different ways. time, trivial-benchmark, sb-sprof (in sbcl), etc.
2017-02-06T03:51:30Z Bike: resizable? you can do that too, if you want.
2017-02-06T03:51:54Z John[Lisbeth]: I just need to know the formula for it
2017-02-06T03:52:02Z Bike: you can just use lists.
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2017-02-06T03:52:26Z Bike: to access an element by number you just use function power or whatever it's called.
2017-02-06T03:52:47Z Bike: "access nth element" is head * tail^n
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2017-02-06T03:52:53Z Bike: push is cons, pop is tail
2017-02-06T03:53:47Z John[Lis`: yes however a list is not random access
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2017-02-06T03:54:12Z Bike: you can access randomly in the way i just said.
2017-02-06T03:54:20Z Bike: if you're worried about timing you should not be doing church encoding.
2017-02-06T03:58:45Z John[Lis`: in what way can you acess randomly with a linked list?
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2017-02-06T03:59:48Z Bike: nth n list = head ((^ tail n) list)
2017-02-06T04:00:14Z Bike: you tail n times and then take the head and that's the nth element. easy.
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2017-02-06T04:13:26Z John[Lis`: Doing it that way means that you don't get to access nth item in the same ammount of time
2017-02-06T04:14:09Z Bike: again, if you are concerned with timing, do not use church encoding.
2017-02-06T04:14:49Z John[Lis`: You seemed to imply it was possible that you could create a RAM in lambdas such that you could access each item in the ram in the same amount of time
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2017-02-06T04:15:32Z Bike: well, you cannot
2017-02-06T04:15:42Z Bike: probably
2017-02-06T04:15:59Z Bike: it's friggin church encoding, addition is O(n) or something, you know?
2017-02-06T04:16:23Z John[Lis`: well i've got not and I've got or. So I can make a flip flop with those, and then I can use that flip flop to make sram. Though I am not sure if it would behave like real sram.
2017-02-06T04:18:03Z Bike: um. no. you're trying to model quantum physics with a pillow fight
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2017-02-06T04:20:44Z John[Lis`: I guess I'll use lists for now then
2017-02-06T04:22:31Z Bike: the main problem with getting ram from flip flops is the addressing scheme. whether your cells are flip flops or cons cells or whatever isn't important to that.
2017-02-06T04:23:56Z John[Lis`: because when I address it I have to exend the same energy that I would walking a list, correct?
2017-02-06T04:25:27Z Bike: well, because lambda calculus doesn't have anything like an array to begin with, i guess.
2017-02-06T04:29:47Z loke: Bike: Sure it does. Everything is a function, hence an array is a function, and lambda calculus are all about functions. Ergo, lambda calculus has functions!
2017-02-06T04:29:55Z loke: If you disagree, then #haskell is over there
2017-02-06T04:30:44Z Bike: your snarkiness is largely the position i was maintaining, but since john cares about timing i went with the flow in recontextualizing "array"
2017-02-06T04:30:59Z John[Lis`: but just because lambda calculus has something functionally equivalent to a random access array does not mean that it will perform as well as that random access array in an imperative language.
2017-02-06T04:32:00Z loke: Bike: Damn it... I just switched to this channel after doing something else, and I just decided to reply to the most recent message I saw.
2017-02-06T04:32:32Z Bike: read more in my article in social text
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2017-02-06T04:35:56Z John[Lis`: What about when you implement numbers in lambda calculus. Does it get infinitely sower the bigger the number is?
2017-02-06T04:36:22Z loke: John[Lis`: Lambda calculus doesn't concern itself with time complexity
2017-02-06T04:36:25Z Bike: like i said, arithmetic is probably linear time or something, i don't remember details
2017-02-06T04:36:43Z loke: Bike: Depends on what kind of arithmetic.
2017-02-06T04:36:45Z Bike: of course, any arithmetic that can handle arbitrary large numbers is going to get slower with size if it's not oracular
2017-02-06T04:36:54Z loke: With church numerals, addition is O(1)
2017-02-06T04:37:18Z loke: Subtractions of N-M is O(M)
2017-02-06T04:37:51Z loke: Hmm, but for subtraction to be O(M), then addition needs to be O(M) too...
2017-02-06T04:40:45Z Bike: looking at the definitions, addition returns a new closure
2017-02-06T04:40:51Z Bike: so it's constant time in that sense
2017-02-06T04:41:37Z loke: Bike: Fair enough. But then it all accumulates in the EVAL.
2017-02-06T04:41:44Z loke: Both space and time.
2017-02-06T04:42:15Z Bike: yeah plus when you actually use it later it will be a, like, slower number
2017-02-06T04:42:26Z Bike: and hey i guess it depends on whether it's normal order or strict too huh
2017-02-06T04:42:36Z loke: Anyway, I maintain my point that time/memory is not a concern when discussin lambda calculus.
2017-02-06T04:42:52Z Bike: oh im with you there
2017-02-06T04:43:00Z Bike: i can't fathom why john is concerned
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2017-02-06T04:43:40Z loke: Bike: He might not fully understand that no one actually _implements_ pure lambda calculus, unless it's for entratainment/educational purposes.
2017-02-06T04:43:54Z Bike: i did it yesterd- oh, yes
2017-02-06T04:44:28Z loke: My favourite joke/educational language is Unlambda. It embodies everything we've discussed just now, and learning it teaches you a lot about lambda calculus.
2017-02-06T04:44:38Z Bike: i like slashes
2017-02-06T04:44:39Z loke: Even though no sane person would ever write a program in it.
2017-02-06T04:44:53Z Bike: https://esolangs.org/wiki////
2017-02-06T04:45:51Z loke: http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/
2017-02-06T04:46:36Z Bike: i think i've written in ski calculus before, for... yeah i think a book on algorithmic probability or whatever it's really called
2017-02-06T04:46:41Z Bike: it is not pleasant
2017-02-06T04:48:42Z loke: Bike: It's very unpleasant indeed. But learning about the ski calculus is very enlightening.
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2017-02-06T04:49:01Z loke: OK, I need to run to the bike shop.
2017-02-06T04:49:03Z Bike: unlambda is... sk plus call/cc plus something about evaluation, with a weird way of grouping. i didn't know that despite being vaguely aware of ski
2017-02-06T04:49:06Z Bike: damn right
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2017-02-06T04:51:46Z beach: So, you can't implement the RAM like that, because the RAM also has time complexity associated with it.  An addition has to be O(1), etc.
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2017-02-06T05:01:06Z beach: Oh, and Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-06T07:17:58Z H4ns: good morning beach
2017-02-06T07:18:15Z loke: Hello H4ns
2017-02-06T07:18:18Z loke: and beach
2017-02-06T07:18:23Z H4ns: loke, hi!
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2017-02-06T09:01:12Z jackdaniel: dim: re gmp.h problem – I believe it is already fixed at least on homebrew git: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew-core/pull/8524
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2017-02-06T09:01:36Z jackdaniel: or rather is being fixed
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2017-02-06T09:02:21Z jackdaniel: before this gets merged, you shouldn't suffice any problems if you build ecl by yourself (because if it won't find global-wide gmp, it will install its own header)
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2017-02-06T09:42:52Z beach: Hello jackdaniel!  How is the paper coming?
2017-02-06T09:43:18Z jackdaniel: I've send you right away after adding your corrections, just as you have suggested :)
2017-02-06T09:43:24Z jackdaniel: s/you/it/
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2017-02-06T09:43:28Z malice`: hey all
2017-02-06T09:43:32Z jackdaniel: hey malice`
2017-02-06T09:43:37Z beach: Hello malice`.
2017-02-06T09:43:47Z beach: jackdaniel: Great!  What number was it assigned?
2017-02-06T09:43:57Z jackdaniel: hm, not sure, I may check
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2017-02-06T09:44:29Z jackdaniel: 20
2017-02-06T09:44:35Z beach: OK.
2017-02-06T09:45:42Z malice`: any idea where I can get a Makefile help on IRC? I tried #make and #makefile but they DNE
2017-02-06T09:46:12Z flip214: malice`: gnu make?
2017-02-06T09:46:14Z jackdaniel: malice`: try #workingset
2017-02-06T09:46:17Z beach: jackdaniel: There are already more submissions this year than last year.  I think it might be a great conference!
2017-02-06T09:46:26Z jackdaniel: malice`: eventually #autotools
2017-02-06T09:46:36Z malice`: flip214: yes
2017-02-06T09:46:38Z malice`: jackdaniel: thanks!
2017-02-06T09:47:04Z jackdaniel: I certainly hope so, this trip is quite pocket-heavy this year :p
2017-02-06T09:47:08Z flip214: malice`: simple questions I might be able to help with, if you don't have success elsewhere. just tell me where to go, this here won't like $(shell) questions ;)
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2017-02-06T09:47:34Z malice`: flip214: I'll ask a quesiton on ##workingset, so you might join if you want to answer my quesiton
2017-02-06T09:48:24Z beach: jackdaniel: s/eventually/possibly/ :)
2017-02-06T09:49:22Z beach: jackdaniel: For some reason, "eventually" got to mean something different in English from all other European languages I know about.
2017-02-06T09:49:30Z flip214: malice`: I'm there
2017-02-06T09:49:47Z jackdaniel: OK, so called false-friend
2017-02-06T09:49:53Z beach: Yep.
2017-02-06T09:49:56Z phoe_: Hey everyone.
2017-02-06T09:49:59Z ogamita: Hi!
2017-02-06T09:49:59Z jackdaniel: thanks for correction
2017-02-06T09:50:02Z jackdaniel: o/
2017-02-06T09:50:06Z beach: Hello phoe_.
2017-02-06T09:50:15Z beach: Hello ogamita.
2017-02-06T09:50:16Z malice`: Hi phoe_
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2017-02-06T09:50:22Z phoe_: jackdaniel: did you get number 20 on your paper?
2017-02-06T09:50:29Z jackdaniel: yes, why?
2017-02-06T09:50:30Z ogamita: malice`: I would answer Make questions in #lispcafe.
2017-02-06T09:50:32Z phoe_: Weird! I got number 22 and I sent it yesterday.
2017-02-06T09:50:45Z jackdaniel: I've sent it day before yesterday :)
2017-02-06T09:51:01Z beach: And I sent my last one in between, so I got 21.
2017-02-06T09:51:03Z phoe_: Ah! So I think you, beach and me are three-in-a-row IIRC.
2017-02-06T09:51:05Z phoe_: Haha.
2017-02-06T09:51:20Z beach: It seems drmeister will not submit anything, and says he won't go to ELS either.
2017-02-06T09:51:25Z jackdaniel: Bike will be 23, it will make 4 ;)
2017-02-06T09:51:32Z beach: Heh!
2017-02-06T09:51:33Z jackdaniel: oh? I thought he will come
2017-02-06T09:51:42Z beach: He changed his mind.
2017-02-06T09:51:49Z beach: He may change it again of course.
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2017-02-06T09:52:33Z beach: He seems to connect submitting a paper to going.  I need to convince him to go even though he is not submitting anything.
2017-02-06T09:53:23Z jackdaniel: I would like to meet him there too
2017-02-06T09:53:27Z jackdaniel: drmeister: ↑ :)
2017-02-06T09:53:27Z flip214: beach: last one == incremental parsing?
2017-02-06T09:53:38Z beach: flip214: Yes.
2017-02-06T09:53:39Z phoe_: drmeister: ↑
2017-02-06T09:53:45Z phoe_: what beach and jackdaniel said!
2017-02-06T09:53:48Z flip214: I still have to finish that one... you'll get a few updates soon.
2017-02-06T09:54:09Z beach: flip214: Thanks.
2017-02-06T09:55:01Z flip214: sorry about the delay, didn't know whether that was meant for ELS too.
2017-02-06T09:55:17Z beach: flip214: That is absolutely no problem, for two reasons...
2017-02-06T09:55:31Z beach: 1. It is possible to submit updated versions at any time.
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2017-02-06T09:56:12Z beach: 2. I don't think your remarks will change the decision by the referees (I shall have to find out by reading them) so I can probably incorporate them for the final version.
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2017-02-06T10:08:21Z flip214: beach: mail incoming.
2017-02-06T10:08:57Z beach: Thanks!
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2017-02-06T10:17:22Z beach: flip214: Got it!
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2017-02-06T10:23:04Z flip214: Fine.
2017-02-06T10:24:32Z beach: Remarks look pertinent.  You are a good proofreader.
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2017-02-06T11:05:48Z varjag: what's the flow with displaying a pixmap in clx?
2017-02-06T11:06:07Z varjag: i do create-pixmap, ok
2017-02-06T11:06:36Z varjag: i can show it with copy-area to the window drawable
2017-02-06T11:06:46Z varjag: but how do i actually manipulate the contents
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2017-02-06T11:09:40Z jackdaniel: varjag: clx has clx.texinfo with it (buildable)
2017-02-06T11:09:45Z jackdaniel: you may want to check graphics context
2017-02-06T11:09:48Z jackdaniel: chapter
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2017-02-06T11:11:43Z jackdaniel: (the point is – you can't access the memory because it's not yours! it's X-server's – you have to tell X serve to change it or use DRI, which is not implemented in CLX I think)
2017-02-06T11:12:19Z varjag: it's the same as in html manual, right
2017-02-06T11:12:30Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-02-06T11:12:33Z jackdaniel: I think)
2017-02-06T11:12:38Z jackdaniel: s/I/(I/
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2017-02-06T11:12:41Z varjag: ok let me put it another way
2017-02-06T11:12:47Z varjag: if i have a bitmap i want to display
2017-02-06T11:13:00Z varjag: what would be the ideomatic way to go with clx
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2017-02-06T11:14:51Z flip214: beach: thank you!
2017-02-06T11:16:20Z jackdaniel: varjag: I haven't worked with clx directly for these kind of things, but *I think* greynetic-pixmapper is a good example
2017-02-06T11:16:26Z jackdaniel: see clx/demo/clx-demos.lisp to find it
2017-02-06T11:16:52Z jackdaniel: and bball demo (same file)
2017-02-06T11:17:02Z varjag: ok thanks
2017-02-06T11:17:33Z jackdaniel: em
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2017-02-06T11:17:49Z jackdaniel: (sorry, 'em' is a terminal alias)
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2017-02-06T11:28:46Z phoe__: haha
2017-02-06T11:28:47Z phoe__: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_get_un.htm
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2017-02-06T11:28:55Z phoe__: the fourth return value is DATE and not DAY
2017-02-06T11:28:58Z phoe__: I only noticed it now
2017-02-06T11:30:37Z phoe__: no, wait, DAY is a different value
2017-02-06T11:31:10Z phoe__: this is silly
2017-02-06T11:31:45Z loke: phoe__: DAY is weekday
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2017-02-06T11:37:10Z phoe__: loke: yes, I figured it out.
2017-02-06T11:37:16Z phoe__: The naming of these variables is more than confusing.
2017-02-06T11:37:23Z phoe__: DATE meaning day of the month.
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2017-02-06T11:45:29Z shka: lol
2017-02-06T11:45:52Z shka: ok, now this i silly :D
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2017-02-06T13:40:10Z shaftoe: my common lisp recipes book arrived
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2017-02-06T13:40:31Z shaftoe: it's a bit big and unweildy and awesome
2017-02-06T13:42:39Z Cymew: Which one is that?
2017-02-06T13:42:48Z shaftoe: common lisp recipes
2017-02-06T13:43:03Z shaftoe: i've bought the pdf but decided to get the book as well
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2017-02-06T13:43:57Z Cymew: Oh, Edi's book. I need to order that one soon.
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2017-02-06T13:48:33Z flip214: don't forget to apply the errata first ;)
2017-02-06T13:52:44Z shaftoe: errata?
2017-02-06T13:52:47Z shaftoe goes looking
2017-02-06T13:53:49Z flip214: shaftoe: linked on http://weitz.de/cl-recipes/
2017-02-06T13:54:34Z shaftoe: danke
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2017-02-06T14:00:55Z flip214: gerne
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2017-02-06T14:07:42Z shka: i have this books as well
2017-02-06T14:07:46Z shka: it is good
2017-02-06T14:08:15Z shaftoe: the deploying lisp applications book is next on my list
2017-02-06T14:08:21Z shaftoe: after reading recipes
2017-02-06T14:08:46Z shka: well, tell us if it is any good once you will have it
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2017-02-06T14:37:54Z shaftoe: with (defclass foo () ((bar :type integer))) (defun dosomething (foo) ...)
2017-02-06T14:38:24Z shaftoe: what's the right way to declare within dosomething and type check foo?
2017-02-06T14:39:03Z shaftoe: multiple declares for each slot-value ?
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2017-02-06T14:40:12Z shaftoe: in other words, what's the idiomatic way to type-check class instances within a function
2017-02-06T14:42:09Z _death: (declare (type foo foo))
2017-02-06T14:42:26Z _death: if you want to type-check, use check-type
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2017-02-06T14:43:55Z shaftoe: thanks death
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2017-02-06T14:58:11Z shka: shaftoe: (type-of foo) will return you a symbol naming type of foo object
2017-02-06T14:58:53Z shaftoe: i just tested with defstruct, which errors if you try to assign the wrong type to a struct
2017-02-06T14:59:06Z shka: if you want do the same during compile time, you just ran out of standard (but CLTL describes envs and SBCL implements those)
2017-02-06T14:59:08Z shaftoe: but :type's behavior if the wrong type is assigned is unspecified
2017-02-06T14:59:21Z shka: yes
2017-02-06T14:59:31Z shaftoe: i kind of want the behavior from defstruct
2017-02-06T14:59:37Z shka: for?
2017-02-06T14:59:47Z shka: function or class
2017-02-06T14:59:49Z shka: ?
2017-02-06T15:00:20Z shaftoe: it means i can declare the type in a function, without worrying about checking a class instance's slot values
2017-02-06T15:00:51Z shka: if you are using SBCL and don't care about portability
2017-02-06T15:00:51Z shaftoe: because defclass doesn't complain if you assign the wrong type, each function you use a class instance, you have to check the slot values
2017-02-06T15:00:56Z shaftoe: yep
2017-02-06T15:01:11Z shka: as for function: declare type of arguments
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2017-02-06T15:01:51Z shka: sbcl will slap you (unless you compile with low safety) if you try to pass wrong type
2017-02-06T15:02:10Z shka: as for class: IIRC sbcl classes already behave this way
2017-02-06T15:02:12Z jackdaniel: if you want to enforce type of a slot, at least on SBCL, you need to locally declare safety at high enough value
2017-02-06T15:02:13Z shaftoe: i know i can declare that an argument is a class type
2017-02-06T15:02:20Z jackdaniel: not sure if it's 3 or 2, I think three
2017-02-06T15:02:24Z shaftoe: i'm worried if a slot value of that class instance is the wrong type
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2017-02-06T15:02:38Z shka: what type did you declare and what did you assigned?
2017-02-06T15:02:44Z shaftoe: shka: yeh i was wreading through the sbcl manual
2017-02-06T15:02:48Z shaftoe: safety 3 or something
2017-02-06T15:03:00Z shaftoe: i'll do some experimentation
2017-02-06T15:03:01Z jackdaniel: (locally (declare (safety 3)) (defclass …))
2017-02-06T15:03:01Z shka: jackdaniel: actually, it does that by default iirc
2017-02-06T15:03:09Z shka: at least that's how it works here
2017-02-06T15:03:19Z jackdaniel: maybe you have global safety 3 locally
2017-02-06T15:03:25Z jackdaniel: for instance in .sbclrc
2017-02-06T15:03:26Z shka: perhaps
2017-02-06T15:03:30Z shka: that could be it
2017-02-06T15:03:36Z shka likes safety
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2017-02-06T15:04:44Z shka: shaftoe: this can also be made quasi-platform independent by using MOP to change access methods so they will contain type assertions
2017-02-06T15:04:51Z shka: it is kinda overkill, though
2017-02-06T15:05:02Z shka: i would stick with what sbcl already does for you
2017-02-06T15:05:28Z PuercoPop: shaftoe: if you want a class to complain when you assign the wrong type use quid-pro-quo
2017-02-06T15:05:34Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/sellout/quid-pro-quo
2017-02-06T15:05:48Z malice`: shaftoe: you can also define generic function dosometing and then define method specialized on your class
2017-02-06T15:06:12Z shka: malice`: you can't specialize for all types, though
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2017-02-06T15:06:35Z malice`: shka: like?
2017-02-06T15:06:39Z malice`: shka: (integer 0 10) ?
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2017-02-06T15:06:40Z shka: (vector fixnum)
2017-02-06T15:06:54Z malice`: t
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2017-02-06T15:06:58Z shka: also (integer 0 10) ofc
2017-02-06T15:07:08Z malice`: yeah, that's unfortunate
2017-02-06T15:07:37Z shka: i guess they had some reason behind doing so
2017-02-06T15:07:45Z shka: but yes, unfortunate
2017-02-06T15:07:59Z malice`: I'd use (declare (type ...)) then, in SBCL this prohibits you from using other data type(at least when not optimizing for speed too much)
2017-02-06T15:08:11Z malice`: also, unit tests are your friend
2017-02-06T15:08:15Z jackdaniel: you may use filtered-functions from closer project
2017-02-06T15:08:25Z jackdaniel: then you may specialize on arbitrary predicates
2017-02-06T15:08:43Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/pcostanza/filtered-functions that
2017-02-06T15:09:22Z shka: jackdaniel: i had to check it someday
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2017-02-06T15:10:27Z shaftoe: shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338428
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2017-02-06T15:11:02Z shka: wow
2017-02-06T15:11:20Z shka: shaftoe: can you please, also try to add initform?
2017-02-06T15:11:30Z shaftoe: err... example?
2017-02-06T15:11:32Z shka: that would assign that simple-array?
2017-02-06T15:11:38Z shaftoe: i'm still kinda new
2017-02-06T15:11:42Z shka: right
2017-02-06T15:11:57Z shka: :initform (make-array '(0)) like this
2017-02-06T15:12:01Z shaftoe: k
2017-02-06T15:12:06Z shka: also
2017-02-06T15:12:20Z malice`: shaftoe: wait, you actually want to ensure that any object of your class will have certain types of slots?
2017-02-06T15:12:25Z shka: add another pair of paranthesis around your slot definition
2017-02-06T15:12:52Z shka: (defclass foo () ((name :initarg :name :type simple-array)))
2017-02-06T15:12:56Z shka: like this
2017-02-06T15:12:59Z malice`: like slot A will have an array and slot B will be integer, etc.?
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2017-02-06T15:14:20Z shaftoe: doesnt seem to help
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2017-02-06T15:15:23Z phoe_: shaftoe: actually
2017-02-06T15:15:38Z phoe_: the :TYPE option does not prevent you from putting objects of different type inside that slot.
2017-02-06T15:15:43Z shka: shaftoe: yeah, it will complain if you compile with high safety
2017-02-06T15:15:47Z phoe_: it's unspecified AFAIK
2017-02-06T15:15:51Z phoe_: clhs defclass
2017-02-06T15:15:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2017-02-06T15:15:54Z shaftoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338430
2017-02-06T15:16:09Z phoe_: undefined.
2017-02-06T15:16:09Z shaftoe: i saw it was unspecified in sbcl manual and clhs
2017-02-06T15:16:11Z Xach: It has to be able to adapt to class redefinition
2017-02-06T15:16:12Z phoe_: "The consequences of attempting to store in a slot a value that does not satisfy the type of the slot are undefined."
2017-02-06T15:16:20Z shka: just slap (declaim (optimize safety)) into your .sbclrc and be happy
2017-02-06T15:16:25Z shaftoe: ok
2017-02-06T15:16:27Z Xach: Structs, where redefinition is undefined, can give you more guarantees
2017-02-06T15:16:43Z shaftoe: xach: i saw that, i was hoping for similar behavior in classes
2017-02-06T15:16:48Z shka: at the very least that's what i do
2017-02-06T15:17:18Z Xach: shaftoe: it's a tradeoff. the flexibility isn't free -- perhaps an implementation could get aggressive about tracking and recompiling stuff after redefinition? but i don't think any currently do
2017-02-06T15:17:54Z shaftoe: i originally came at this from "do i have to type-check each slot-value for each class instance in each function"
2017-02-06T15:18:03Z shaftoe: which seemed like a big headache
2017-02-06T15:18:12Z malice`: shaftoe: is there any particular reason that you want to prevent this?
2017-02-06T15:18:15Z malice`: you can
2017-02-06T15:18:26Z malice`: with many hacks, you can *almost* prevent this behaviour
2017-02-06T15:18:28Z malice`: because MOP
2017-02-06T15:18:35Z shka: it is not large problem in practice
2017-02-06T15:18:45Z shaftoe: i'm coming from a Go mindset, so i'm looking for some type safety :P
2017-02-06T15:18:50Z shka: static typing is largely overrated imho
2017-02-06T15:18:51Z shaftoe: i'm trying to figure out the right approach
2017-02-06T15:18:57Z malice`: shaftoe: I'd suggest doing something like that
2017-02-06T15:19:11Z shka: at least from correctness point of view
2017-02-06T15:19:13Z malice`: shaftoe: name your slots like %slot-name and provide reader/writer/accessor if you feel like it
2017-02-06T15:19:23Z malice`: shaftoe: define package and only export readers/writers/accessors
2017-02-06T15:19:31Z malice`: and explicitly document that user is to use this interface
2017-02-06T15:19:37Z shaftoe: malice`: good suggestion
2017-02-06T15:19:39Z malice`: then if someone wants to access the raw slots
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2017-02-06T15:19:45Z malice`: he will have to use both :: and %
2017-02-06T15:19:48Z malice`: meaning double danger
2017-02-06T15:19:56Z malice`: if you are paranoid, make slots names gensyms
2017-02-06T15:20:27Z malice`: if you want to ensure types safety during initialization, either define a constructor or :after method for initialize-instance (or both)
2017-02-06T15:20:29Z shka: don't use gensyms for slot names
2017-02-06T15:20:35Z shka: that's just crazy :P
2017-02-06T15:20:41Z malice`: paranoid :P
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2017-02-06T15:21:12Z shka: oh common, why would anybody put so much effort to make using library HARDER?
2017-02-06T15:21:21Z shka: it is just crazy
2017-02-06T15:21:22Z shaftoe: hehe
2017-02-06T15:21:26Z jackdaniel: using initialize-instance doesn't solve a problem of accessing the variable
2017-02-06T15:21:30Z shka: we have packages, call it good
2017-02-06T15:21:31Z jackdaniel: (setf (my-accessor foo) 3)
2017-02-06T15:21:58Z malice`: shaftoe: also, you should (theoretically) provide :initform when you don't want your user to use :initargs because of how inheritance and various options work
2017-02-06T15:21:59Z shka: shaftoe: i suggest to follow my advice and just (declaim (optimize safety))
2017-02-06T15:22:12Z malice`: so if you have slot X and you want user to initalize it, but also want to provide a default value
2017-02-06T15:22:15Z shka: it is by far simplest solution and does exactly what you want
2017-02-06T15:22:16Z shaftoe: shka: i'll try and see how i go
2017-02-06T15:22:22Z malice`: I suggest providing (:default-initargs ...) option to the class
2017-02-06T15:22:30Z shaftoe: malice`: right
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2017-02-06T15:23:47Z shka: personally, i would just define function called make-my-class and use it instead of make-instance
2017-02-06T15:24:09Z shka: i like to keep things simple
2017-02-06T15:24:32Z malice`: shka: it depends how much you want to make your library 'safe'
2017-02-06T15:25:00Z malice`: of course you could say that if someone tinkers with your library when he shouldn't, then it's his problem if things do not work
2017-02-06T15:25:09Z malice`: or you might want to make this easier on him
2017-02-06T15:25:25Z malice`: anyway, there goes your solution. Good luck! Tell us if you succeed :)
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2017-02-06T15:32:31Z shka: malice`: yeah, as you can guess, i strongly prefer to make things transparent
2017-02-06T15:33:02Z shaftoe: i'll try not to go overboard
2017-02-06T15:33:05Z shaftoe: ;)
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2017-02-06T15:33:38Z shka: like: here are the function that are exported. Use it. You may use other functions if you really want to, but you shouldn't.
2017-02-06T15:34:09Z shka: i certainly don't think that forcing code to be idiot safe is way to go
2017-02-06T15:34:25Z malice`: me neither
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2017-02-06T15:34:43Z shka: it is problematic if you really want to use something
2017-02-06T15:34:50Z shka: it complicates things
2017-02-06T15:35:10Z shka: and at the end of the day idiots are still way to creative ;-)
2017-02-06T15:35:22Z shka: (i know that because I am one!)
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2017-02-06T15:45:27Z shaftoe: shka: (declaim (optimize safety)) seems to complain the way i was looking for
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2017-02-06T15:46:29Z malice`: shaftoe: remember that it's local for you, and if user decides to optimize for something else, or uses other implementation, he might not get the errors
2017-02-06T15:46:44Z malice`: by "local for you" I mean "in your configuration"
2017-02-06T15:46:57Z shaftoe: now (setf (slot-value bar 'id) "a") will complain
2017-02-06T15:47:05Z shaftoe: yep, i get that
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2017-02-06T15:59:54Z larsen: oh nice, my copy of PAIP arrived :)
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2017-02-06T16:03:01Z azrazalea: nice larsen. I've got a copy on my shelf but I've been too lazy/busy with life to read it
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2017-02-06T16:12:27Z larsen: yeah, guilty as charged
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2017-02-06T16:32:08Z flip214: my first parsing said "too busy with wife" ;P
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2017-02-06T16:54:14Z azrazalea: Also trying to make it through Concrete Mathematics first... which is also sitting on my shelf mostly unused.
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2017-02-06T17:06:34Z rumbler31: after making a ql bundle and changing out ql:quickload for asdf:load-system, I get several warnings that I haven't seen before.  http://paste.lisp.org/display/338436
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2017-02-06T17:08:27Z rumbler31: the resulting binary passes my tests, but I'm wondering if anyone else has experienced this.  The warnings at the end are my own, but the ones prior that come from loading cffi,swank,uiop, are not
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2017-02-06T17:08:39Z azrazalea: rumbler31: quicklisp by default hides warnings I believe
2017-02-06T17:08:46Z rumbler31: oh lol
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2017-02-06T17:09:10Z azrazalea: rumbler31: pass :verbose t to quickload to see them
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2017-02-06T17:09:49Z azrazalea: Yeah, https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ "By default, ql:quickload hides most compilation and loading output, including warnings, and shows progess as a series of dots. You can show full compilation and loading output by passing :verbose t as arguments to ql:quickload. This output can be especially helpful when reporting and troubleshooting problems."
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2017-02-06T17:10:08Z rumbler31: derp
2017-02-06T17:10:24Z rumbler31: thank you...
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2017-02-06T17:10:27Z Xach: rumbler31: it's a problem
2017-02-06T17:10:31Z azrazalea: No worries lol, it surprised me
2017-02-06T17:10:36Z azrazalea: (originally)
2017-02-06T17:10:40Z Xach: http://lispblog.xach.com/post/104872127228/a-verbosity-conundrum
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2017-02-06T17:13:23Z rumbler31: xach: so I take it that even :verbose t might not result in the same output from asdf:load-system?
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2017-02-06T17:14:09Z Xach: rumbler31: it should be the same. i can't think of a reason it might be different at the moment, other than some quicklisp informative fluff.
2017-02-06T17:15:07Z rumbler31: hmm.  well when passing :verbose t, I don't see the same warnings appear.  I'll try... something else
2017-02-06T17:16:00Z rumbler31: so in the asdf/bundle case, I start ccl with --no-init (for no init file stuff) and --load bundle.lisp, then do the asdf stuff I need to put my system together
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2017-02-06T17:16:25Z rumbler31: and for the quicklisp case its --no-init --load quicklisp\setup.lisp then (ql:quickload :verbose t)
2017-02-06T17:16:31Z Xach: rumbler31: you should definitely see the same warnings appear.
2017-02-06T17:16:32Z azrazalea: Xach: re your blog post, one idea that comes to mind is handling ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ special and more verbose. Not sure how easy that would be technically though, and it is far from perfect. Would probably catch most cases of "hacking on something myself" though.
2017-02-06T17:16:57Z Xach: azrazalea: well, that's kind of the point of the blog post. that is the exact thing I can't figure out how to do.
2017-02-06T17:17:12Z Xach: I think that's a good heuristic
2017-02-06T17:17:49Z azrazalea: Got it. Yeah, only thing I could think of (which is awful) is actually checking if the system is in the directory before running asdf.
2017-02-06T17:18:01Z azrazalea: And running with different options based on that result
2017-02-06T17:18:47Z rumbler31: in hindsight, the warning is only for loading uiop... but the warning is strange.  it says that compilation completed without its input file being available
2017-02-06T17:19:01Z Xach: I'm up for something awful, but I really couldn't figure out any way, bad or good.
2017-02-06T17:19:11Z Xach: Sometimes the system to be loaded is deep in a recursive call somewhere.
2017-02-06T17:20:22Z azrazalea: Xach: Ah yeah, that's right. Seems like we'd need some kind of asdf feature that allows you to set options based on a predicate or something then.
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2017-02-06T18:38:02Z paule32: hello
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2017-02-06T18:38:17Z paule32: what is:
2017-02-06T18:38:59Z paule32: what is:  #("/usr/local" "-B" "./start.lisp" "arg1")
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2017-02-06T18:39:27Z paule32: a string list?
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2017-02-06T18:46:11Z beach: paule32: Try (type-of #("/usr/local" "-B" "./start.lisp" "arg1"))
2017-02-06T18:49:26Z paule32: ah, ok
2017-02-06T18:49:29Z paule32: simple-vector
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2017-02-06T19:11:40Z paule32: beach: how can i get the second string from these list ?
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2017-02-06T19:17:17Z paule32: (defun getCmdLine ()
2017-02-06T19:17:17Z paule32:   (ext:argv))
2017-02-06T19:17:28Z paule32: (qt:init (setf args (getCmdLine)))
2017-02-06T19:17:28Z paule32: (write (svref args 8))
2017-02-06T19:17:56Z paule32: this give me the first parameter of argv
2017-02-06T19:18:51Z paule32: can i thrust in it, that lisp always start at index 7 ?
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2017-02-06T19:39:39Z jasom: Xach: isn't load-system called recursively for asdf dependencies?  You could create a new class of .asd files that wraps the .asd files for systems in quicklisp and bind the special variables there
2017-02-06T19:40:14Z XachX: jasom: sounds promising
2017-02-06T19:40:21Z jasom: XachX: I'll see if I can hack something up
2017-02-06T19:40:46Z XachX: I wonder if that would or could break someone's custom system def
2017-02-06T19:40:55Z XachX: There are some weird ones.
2017-02-06T19:41:00Z jasom: it probably will
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2017-02-06T19:49:41Z jasom: anyone name a system in quicklisp that depends on other systems?
2017-02-06T19:50:41Z jasom: nevermind, found a local one
2017-02-06T19:51:47Z pjb: ok, so I won't say.
2017-02-06T20:05:16Z jasom: XachX: can you point me to the special(s) you are tweaking for output so I can test my solution?
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2017-02-06T20:12:23Z jasom: XachX: found them in call-with-quiet-compilation and I have a solution, but it's not pretty.
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2017-02-06T20:13:40Z jasom: XachX: (perform-with-restarts ((o asdf:prepare-op) (c asdf:system))) is called before processing all files in a system and (perform-with-restarts ((o asdf:load-op) (c asdf:system))) is called after all files in a system are loaded.
2017-02-06T20:14:15Z jasom: XachX: so setting and resetting the specials in :before :after or :around methods on those two methods should do what you want.
2017-02-06T20:17:28Z jasom: XachX: Proof of concept: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338448
2017-02-06T20:18:02Z jasom: obviously change   (string= (asdf:component-name c) "trivial-gray-streams") to "Is this system in quicklisp" and t/nil to the "If quicklisp/If not quicklisp" values that you'd need to save off in quickload.
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2017-02-06T20:31:07Z aeth: declare dynamic-extent is magical
2017-02-06T20:31:33Z jasom: aeth: what makes you say that?
2017-02-06T20:31:54Z aeth: I love that this appears to work: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/commit/4e20e79d18be6654b6feef6d98cabb78910d3e92
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2017-02-06T20:32:19Z shka: aeth: not really magical
2017-02-06T20:32:33Z aeth: I can create a vector and destructively work with that vector using CL built-ins and it's as if that vector never existed, even though it's much clearer than long setf arefs
2017-02-06T20:32:36Z shka: and note that it can be ignored if compiler "feels" like it
2017-02-06T20:32:56Z jasom: aeth: also note that on sbcl it may reduce throughput
2017-02-06T20:33:16Z shka: it shouldn't in this case
2017-02-06T20:33:17Z aeth: shka: It's not necessary in SBCL, but on the other hand when it doesn't work in SBCL, it will warn.
2017-02-06T20:33:26Z shka: yes
2017-02-06T20:33:39Z phoe: jasom: throughput?
2017-02-06T20:33:40Z shka: well, code looks fine
2017-02-06T20:33:53Z aeth: jasom: Memory is more important to me than speed in most of what I do. I can easily allocate too much accidentally in a large loop.
2017-02-06T20:34:04Z jasom: phoe: amortized runtime of the code over a large number of iterations
2017-02-06T20:34:19Z phoe: jasom: got it.
2017-02-06T20:34:45Z shka: i think it shouldn't do that in this case
2017-02-06T20:35:01Z shka: this is literally just array of 6 fixnums
2017-02-06T20:35:25Z shka: it should be very well suited for stack allocation
2017-02-06T20:35:37Z shka: unless sbcl does something crazy
2017-02-06T20:35:57Z phoe: shka: craziness will be seen in disassembly methinks
2017-02-06T20:36:05Z jasom: shka: yup, but always measure.  Due to nursery GCs being fast on sbcl, it often helps not at all with speed; due to sbcl being fairly lazy about GCing it can definitely help with memory usage
2017-02-06T20:37:22Z shka: anyway
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2017-02-06T20:37:57Z shka: i agree that implementations that actually can figure out that I WANT something on stack is one reason to use common lisp over other dynamic languages
2017-02-06T20:38:11Z Xach: jasom: i like the proof of concept
2017-02-06T20:38:56Z Xach: jasom: I feel like I couldn't define it on asdf:system, and now I wonder where and how to intervene to change-class to ql:quicklisp-system, and if that's safe in general
2017-02-06T20:39:04Z aeth: shka: That's kind of cheating. Common Lisp is lower level than most of the comparable dynamic languages.
2017-02-06T20:39:32Z aeth: Just really the presence of declare, declaim, proclaim when it's needed...
2017-02-06T20:39:39Z shka: YES!
2017-02-06T20:39:39Z phoe: aeth: except you can choose to be oblivious to the low-level stuff.
2017-02-06T20:39:42Z jasom: Xach: right with this you can just check if the system-path is in quicklisp/dists/quicklisp for each prepare-op
2017-02-06T20:39:50Z shka: but that's the point
2017-02-06T20:39:57Z shka: i can do that stuff if i need to
2017-02-06T20:40:03Z phoe: ^
2017-02-06T20:40:19Z Xach: jasom: yes, i understand that, but I don't think I can define that method signature
2017-02-06T20:40:23Z shka: if i would use python i would be like "oh crap, time to write C extension"
2017-02-06T20:40:23Z aeth: phoe: Right, in my loops what matters is memory, so I worry about declare dynamic extent... but I am mostly not caring about e.g. type declarations because performance is good enough with generic +, etc.
2017-02-06T20:40:39Z Xach: jasom: because someone else may have their own method on asdf:system
2017-02-06T20:40:45Z Xach: (like asdf itself?)
2017-02-06T20:41:01Z phoe: aeth: I guess that, if you cared about speed, you'd be using DECLARE OPTIMIZE SPEED and then SBCL would tell you what it can't optimize on its own.
2017-02-06T20:41:09Z shka: aeth: type declarations would have zero impact on this code
2017-02-06T20:41:13Z aeth: Right, and it'd mostly be complaining about generic +, I see it in the disassembly too
2017-02-06T20:41:17Z shka: at least in sbcl
2017-02-06T20:41:34Z phoe: shka: what about generic +?
2017-02-06T20:41:42Z aeth: shka: I suspect that even though it knows a lot of things are fixnum, it will still use generic + because fixnum + fixnum could leave fixnum
2017-02-06T20:42:04Z shka: phoe: i'm pretty sure that most of those types can be deduced compile time
2017-02-06T20:42:24Z shka: that is: probably very few generic + are here
2017-02-06T20:42:29Z phoe: aeth: (the fixnum (+ fixnum-1 fixnum-2)) sort of stuff?
2017-02-06T20:42:45Z aeth: phoe: Technically, a lot of these are probably much smaller than the max fixnum size so it'd probably be better to set an upper bound than to just do that
2017-02-06T20:42:47Z shka: phoe: nope
2017-02-06T20:42:52Z shka: phoe: the can be ignored
2017-02-06T20:43:01Z shka: phoe: you would need to use truely-the
2017-02-06T20:43:04Z aeth: phoe: but I don't need to
2017-02-06T20:43:19Z phoe: shka: right, we'd need to go the truly-the way to force SBCL to treat this as a fixnum.
2017-02-06T20:43:25Z shka: or be like me and write (ldb (byte 0 64) (+ fixnum-1 fixnum-2))
2017-02-06T20:43:27Z phoe: but oh well, we're solving a problem that doesn't exist.
2017-02-06T20:43:44Z shka: well, yeah
2017-02-06T20:44:00Z shka: that's very good point
2017-02-06T20:44:06Z jasom: Xach: hence :around or :after or whatever
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2017-02-06T20:47:53Z Xach: jasom: I don't think that helps, does it?
2017-02-06T20:49:20Z Xach: jasom: Unless it's a different class, you could clobber something else that has decided to do the same thing.
2017-02-06T20:50:32Z jasom: Xach: true
2017-02-06T20:51:57Z Xach: I do have a custom search function that could change-class things as needed. But I'm not sure if it's safe -- either de facto or de jure.
2017-02-06T20:52:29Z jasom: Xach: I can't think of a way without either A) rewriting all the .asd files in quicklisp to use a class derived from asdf:system or B) risking that you'll clobber someone elses' work.
2017-02-06T20:53:12Z Xach: jasom: for a, you could change-class after find-system.
2017-02-06T20:53:20Z jasom: Xach: okay, that could work
2017-02-06T20:53:34Z Xach: since find-system can now return system objects, not just pathnames.
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2017-02-06T21:04:29Z jasom: And just dynamically create a new class with no direct slots that inhertis from ql-system plus whatever class it already was?
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2017-02-06T21:08:11Z Xach: well, i was thinking of just making (defclass ql-system (asdf:system) ()) but maybe that's completely infeasible.
2017-02-06T21:08:23Z Xach: I would rather not get into dynamic class creation if it can be helped.
2017-02-06T21:09:00Z Xach: Yeah, the :class option to asdf:defsystem sinks that dream
2017-02-06T21:09:17Z jasom: Xach: if nobody in ql uses :class you're okay, but I bet someone does
2017-02-06T21:09:39Z Xach: And someone could
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2017-02-06T21:11:58Z k-stz: dear lispers, i find myself having to parse the procfs, and wondering if this was already solved by a ql:quickload'able system?
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2017-02-06T21:23:10Z Xach: k-stz: when i wonder such things, i use quickdocs.org and search
2017-02-06T21:23:24Z Xach: http://quickdocs.org/search?q=procfs for example. (it shows nothing, though)
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2017-02-06T21:32:42Z pjb: k-stz: you mean /proc?  For the processes or the other files you can find there? Each file has its own format.
2017-02-06T21:33:55Z pjb: k-stz: my only advice would be to be careful, some implementation behave strangely when reading them with read-sequence. cf. com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.stream:contents-from-stream
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2017-02-06T21:53:06Z k-stz: pjb: /proc for the processes
2017-02-06T21:53:39Z k-stz: well my issue for now is very trivial, so I might just hack it up quickly
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2017-02-06T22:15:40Z pjb: k-stz: eg. directory in /proc can be difficult, since it must return the truename; you get: File #P"/proc/1808/fd/1" does not exist.
2017-02-06T22:16:01Z pjb: k-stz: so you'd better use POSIX API to deal with it.
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2017-02-06T22:53:11Z Baggers: what is the backstory for the 'n' prefix being used for destructive functions?
2017-02-06T22:53:11Z minion: Baggers, memo from jackdaniel: sure, go ahead
2017-02-06T22:55:27Z Baggers: n for 'non-consing' I guess
2017-02-06T22:56:06Z Baggers: ah yeah, pcl says that's it
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2017-02-06T23:11:17Z jasom: Xach: I suppose you could compromise by having a defclass for the common case and dynamically handling the rest
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2017-02-06T23:18:10Z Xach: jasom: ah, good point
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2017-02-06T23:22:12Z Xach: hmm
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2017-02-06T23:22:41Z Xach: on the other hand, i do hate it when find-system loads systems, too.
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2017-02-07T00:25:05Z jasom: Xach: the 800lb solution is to have quicklisp insert stub systems that alter the build plan to set and clear these variables.  It's non-trivial to implement though.
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2017-02-07T00:42:58Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
2017-02-07T00:43:33Z rszeno: where? :)
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2017-02-07T01:58:36Z thorondor[m]: !help
2017-02-07T01:59:36Z Xach: thorondor[m]: was ist los?
2017-02-07T02:00:35Z thorondor[m]: my mistake. I'm trying to figure out how this works. I'm accessing from riot.im via matrix chat integration
2017-02-07T02:01:16Z thorondor[m]: I cannot see channel's history, that's all
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2017-02-07T03:18:23Z neoncontrails: Are there any actively maintained lisp alternatives to the bash shell?
2017-02-07T03:20:14Z neoncontrails: I found a Scheme implementation that compiles and builds, but I can't tell that it's anything more than a curiosity
2017-02-07T03:20:27Z neoncontrails: (The website's uhh... 10 years old)
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2017-02-07T03:22:13Z thorondor[m]: http://dan.corlan.net/shelisp/
2017-02-07T03:22:13Z thorondor[m]: ?
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2017-02-07T03:29:32Z neoncontrails: this looks compelling, I'm a bit of a stranger to running lisp in non-emacs environments. I'm guessing there's no installation for this script, you'd just run it in bash?
2017-02-07T03:30:06Z neoncontrails: Ah, there's a PDF. Got it
2017-02-07T03:30:17Z thorondor[m]: yep
2017-02-07T03:30:24Z thorondor[m]: lisp -load shelisp.lisp
2017-02-07T03:30:27Z thorondor[m]: I haven't tried it
2017-02-07T03:30:58Z thorondor[m]: it is just a common lisp image with a different reader
2017-02-07T03:31:40Z neoncontrails: is there a lively community of bash defectors in the lisp ecosystem?
2017-02-07T03:31:55Z neoncontrails: You'd think there might be, considering its origins...
2017-02-07T03:32:12Z thorondor[m]: I don't think so
2017-02-07T03:32:31Z neoncontrails: Heh. Interesting
2017-02-07T03:32:45Z neoncontrails: I wonder why
2017-02-07T03:32:45Z thorondor[m]: I've just loaded shelisp
2017-02-07T03:32:55Z thorondor[m]: it works
2017-02-07T03:34:33Z thorondor[m]: but ok. it is just a thin reader layer
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2017-02-07T03:35:57Z neoncontrails: thorondor[m]: I'm using a clisp distro from brew. Any idea what this error represents? GNU CLISP: invalid argument: '-load'
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2017-02-07T03:36:35Z thorondor[m]: clisp is not a recommended compiler, don't you have SBCL in your distro?
2017-02-07T03:36:46Z thorondor[m]: SBCL is kind of the standard these days
2017-02-07T03:37:05Z neoncontrails: I do not, but good to know. I'll fetch it now
2017-02-07T03:37:07Z Bike: of course, sbcl doesn't have "-load" either.
2017-02-07T03:37:33Z thorondor[m]: sbcl --load shelisp.lisp
2017-02-07T03:37:50Z Bike: on clisp i think you just do clisp shelisp.lisp, but i've never used it
2017-02-07T03:38:27Z thorondor[m]: clisp -i shelisp.lisp
2017-02-07T03:38:39Z neoncontrails: that's the ticket
2017-02-07T03:39:32Z thorondor[m]: a long way to go for a proper shell anyway
2017-02-07T03:40:55Z neoncontrails: Is it? I'd trust a seasoned lisper to know better than me, I just find writing even simple bash functions pure agony
2017-02-07T03:41:30Z thorondor[m]: ah. of course. anything is preferable to bash IMO.
2017-02-07T03:42:01Z thorondor[m]: bash as a language
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2017-02-07T03:42:23Z thorondor[m]: but shelisp did not even support "cd" (change directory) for me
2017-02-07T03:42:39Z thorondor[m]: or command history and other niceties
2017-02-07T03:42:46Z thorondor[m]: that are common in unix shells
2017-02-07T03:43:20Z neoncontrails: Ah, that's true
2017-02-07T03:43:34Z neoncontrails: in my 2 mins of use I gleaned cd -> !cd
2017-02-07T03:44:41Z neoncontrails: I actually think I could get used to this
2017-02-07T03:44:55Z thorondor[m]: haha
2017-02-07T03:45:21Z neoncontrails: I was just attempting to write a simple goto() function to map kwargs -> cd /some/path
2017-02-07T03:45:22Z thorondor[m]: it could be the start of a good lisp shell
2017-02-07T03:45:30Z neoncontrails: which seemed reasonably straightforward
2017-02-07T03:45:30Z thorondor[m]: maybe there's something else out there, but I don't know about it
2017-02-07T03:46:19Z neoncontrails: but in attempting to find the bash syntax to express the idea, I grew increasingly horrified and certain there had to be a better way
2017-02-07T03:46:34Z thorondor[m]: yes. bash sucks badly
2017-02-07T03:46:57Z paule32: hello
2017-02-07T03:47:07Z paule32: (write (type-of 1))
2017-02-07T03:47:15Z paule32: give me BIT
2017-02-07T03:47:30Z Bike: 1 is deffo a bit.
2017-02-07T03:47:33Z neoncontrails: absolutely. And the existence of emacs-lisp makes me suspect there's probably people who've used it for filesystem admin, but I dunno
2017-02-07T03:47:53Z paule32: is it possible to get INTEGER?
2017-02-07T03:48:03Z pillton: No.
2017-02-07T03:48:28Z Bike: but bit is a subtype of integer, so no big
2017-02-07T03:48:41Z paule32: ok
2017-02-07T03:49:08Z thorondor[m]: neoncontrails: I don't know either
2017-02-07T03:50:17Z neoncontrails: shelisp is growing on me. :) It's such a lightweight wrapper around bash, it's not as terrifying as defecting from bash completely
2017-02-07T03:50:46Z thorondor[m]: no. it is even tempting to try improving it
2017-02-07T03:51:14Z thorondor[m]: like readline support? :)
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2017-02-07T03:51:33Z thorondor[m]: i've used readline on some lisp command line project of mine
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2017-02-07T03:53:53Z neoncontrails: I never realized before that it lacked readline, does it just read the target in a single swoop
2017-02-07T03:53:56Z neoncontrails: *?
2017-02-07T03:55:07Z thorondor[m]: I meant GNU readline
2017-02-07T03:55:08Z thorondor[m]: https://cnswww.cns.cwru.edu/php/chet/readline/rltop.html
2017-02-07T03:55:16Z thorondor[m]: which provides command history
2017-02-07T03:55:19Z thorondor[m]: among other things
2017-02-07T03:55:31Z neoncontrails: oh god that old problem
2017-02-07T03:55:38Z loke: paule32: (subtypep 'bit 'integer) → T
2017-02-07T03:55:44Z neoncontrails: I use rlwrap, is that equivalent?
2017-02-07T03:55:59Z loke: paule32: Or, if you prefer: (typep 1 'integer) → T
2017-02-07T03:56:07Z pillton: Hmm. I thought type-of had to return the most specific type for objects that are elements of built-in types.
2017-02-07T03:56:07Z thorondor[m]: don't know
2017-02-07T03:56:13Z paule32: thank you loke
2017-02-07T03:56:46Z loke: pillton: It does. BIT is a more specific type than INTEGER.
2017-02-07T03:57:04Z thorondor[m]: I'm off
2017-02-07T03:57:22Z pillton: loke: I can't find it in the spec. It would appear an implementation could return integer and still be conforming.
2017-02-07T03:58:00Z pillton: Actually, that mustn't be right. You could return T.
2017-02-07T03:58:12Z neoncontrails: thorondor[m]: you might look into rlwrap, I'm reading rltop documentation and it looks like rlwrap with added emacs keybindings
2017-02-07T03:58:21Z neoncontrails: (but works in command line)
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2017-02-07T03:59:18Z pillton: "type-of always returns a type specifier for a type more specific than t.)"
2017-02-07T03:59:26Z pillton: From 4.1
2017-02-07T04:00:05Z loke: pillton: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_bit.htm
2017-02-07T04:00:17Z paule32: can i exit a "cond" at the middle ?
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2017-02-07T04:00:26Z loke: paule32: Yes.
2017-02-07T04:00:41Z loke: paule32: Wrap in in a BLOCK and use RETURN-FROM.
2017-02-07T04:01:26Z loke: pillton: BIT is nothing more than a range-constrained INTEGER. From that I deduce that returning INTEGER from (TYPE-OF 1) is valid.
2017-02-07T04:01:39Z pillton: loke: I know what the type BIT is. My question concerns whether or not an implementation is allowed to return INTEGER when given (type-of 1).
2017-02-07T04:01:51Z loke: pillton: I assume yes.
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2017-02-07T04:02:23Z loke: pillton: Otherwise, you'd expect (type-of 2) to return (INTEGER 2 2)
2017-02-07T04:02:36Z loke: or perhaps (INTEGER 0 2).
2017-02-07T04:03:59Z _death: (defun my-excellent-type-of (object) `(eql ,object))
2017-02-07T04:04:00Z Bike: type-of has to return something that's a subtype of every built-in type that the object is of.
2017-02-07T04:04:16Z Bike: built in t ypes being one of the standard atomic specifiers.
2017-02-07T04:04:30Z Bike: so it could return bit or something equivalent, like (integer 0 1).
2017-02-07T04:04:38Z Bike: but not integer.
2017-02-07T04:04:44Z _death:  b. the type returned does not involve and, eql, member, not, or, satisfies, or values. :(
2017-02-07T04:04:57Z pillton: Hmm.. My memory is faulty. I thought type-of couldn't return compound types too.
2017-02-07T04:05:04Z loke: _death: Yeah, I was just about to quote that :-)
2017-02-07T04:05:26Z Bike: hm i think it could return (integer 1 1) also
2017-02-07T04:05:36Z loke: Bike: It definitely could.
2017-02-07T04:06:01Z loke: SBCL returns (INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903) when given (type-of 2)
2017-02-07T04:06:18Z loke: That's also correct, albeit a bit excessive perhaps.
2017-02-07T04:06:45Z loke: I think it reflects the underlying datatype in the implementation.
2017-02-07T04:06:47Z Bike: fixnum
2017-02-07T04:06:51Z loke: Right
2017-02-07T04:07:11Z pillton: Clearly my memory is corrupted. Sorry for the noise.
2017-02-07T04:07:18Z loke: But 0 and 1 are also sotred as fixnums, so the fact that TYPE-OF returns BIT for those must be a special-case.
2017-02-07T04:07:26Z Bike: it's because of the rule i stated
2017-02-07T04:07:32Z _death: (type-of -1) is also a fixnum
2017-02-07T04:07:36Z Bike: bit is a built in type, so if type-of gets a bit, it has to return a subtype of bit
2017-02-07T04:07:53Z Bike: but there are no built-in types "between" bit and fixnum, so above 1 you have more options
2017-02-07T04:08:31Z _death: (for -1 it actually returns FIXNUM...)
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2017-02-07T04:08:51Z Bike: yeah (integer 0 4etc) is positive-fixnum
2017-02-07T04:08:57Z Bike: er, nonnegative fixnum, i guess.
2017-02-07T04:09:02Z loke: Bike: But it's not clear that that is _required_. Because the rules can still be satisifed without explicitly returning BIT (or (INTEGER 0 1) from TYPE-OF)
2017-02-07T04:09:14Z pillton: Bike: Oh I see. The wording in the hyperspec could be improved.
2017-02-07T04:09:16Z Bike: what is it that is not required
2017-02-07T04:09:25Z Bike: it is required that a subtype of bit is returned
2017-02-07T04:09:44Z loke: Bike: Where does it say that?
2017-02-07T04:09:45Z Bike: i know the type system is confusing, but this is the first point in type-of
2017-02-07T04:09:55Z Bike: clhs type-of
2017-02-07T04:09:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_tp_of.htm
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2017-02-07T04:10:16Z Bike: to save you some clicks, "built-in type" means "one of the types in Figure 4-2", and Figure 4-2 lists all the standard atomic type specifiers
2017-02-07T04:10:29Z _death: (INTEGER 0 1) is a subtype of BIT..
2017-02-07T04:10:35Z Bike: yeah that would be fine
2017-02-07T04:11:28Z loke: Bike: Thanks. I'm still looking for the table 4.2. Do you happen to know where I can find it?
2017-02-07T04:11:55Z Bike: chapter 4, helpfully enough, or you can click the glossary entry for built-in type and there's a link
2017-02-07T04:12:01Z loke: Thansk
2017-02-07T04:12:03Z loke: THanks
2017-02-07T04:12:04Z loke: Thanks
2017-02-07T04:12:06Z loke: (argh)
2017-02-07T04:12:34Z _death: 4.2.3
2017-02-07T04:12:37Z Fare tried to fix the lisp-invocation library on Windows, and only made it worse :-/
2017-02-07T04:13:49Z loke: But at the same time, BIT is equivalent to (INTEGER 0 1), so why shouldn't (TYPE-OF 2) return (INTEGER 0 2) ?
2017-02-07T04:13:59Z Bike: what does bit have to do with that
2017-02-07T04:14:03Z loke: Is that purely because BIT shows up in table 4-2?
2017-02-07T04:14:28Z Bike: (type-of 2) _could_ return (integer 0 2), but per that point it's only required to return some subtype of FIXNUM that has 2 in it
2017-02-07T04:14:51Z paule32: lokehttps://paste.fedoraproject.org/550139/48644085/
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2017-02-07T04:15:01Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550139/48644085/
2017-02-07T04:15:15Z loke: Bike: Right, so I'm asking if the _only_ reason you say that (TYPE-OF 1) is required to return BIT is because BIT is listend in 4-2?
2017-02-07T04:15:28Z paule32: at line 31
2017-02-07T04:15:28Z _death: (defun conforming-integer-type-of (integer) `(integer ,integer ,integer))
2017-02-07T04:15:34Z Bike: i say it's required to return a subtype of BIT because bit is listed in 4-2, yes.
2017-02-07T04:15:49Z loke: paule32: I really recommend you to clean up that code style.
2017-02-07T04:15:51Z Bike: i think this is the obvious and only way to read the definition of type-of.
2017-02-07T04:16:20Z Bike: paule32: those "returns" are messed up.
2017-02-07T04:16:44Z paule32: how to do better?
2017-02-07T04:16:50Z Bike: wait, are you running common qt for this
2017-02-07T04:17:00Z paule32: nono
2017-02-07T04:17:03Z _death: don't rely on the value of type-of
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2017-02-07T04:17:08Z loke: Bike: I read the definition of TYPE-OF, and I'm not as certain as you. That said, I'm not sure that I'm correct so I'll accept your conclusion :-)
2017-02-07T04:17:13Z Bike: also == doesn't exist
2017-02-07T04:17:13Z paule32: it should be a remade
2017-02-07T04:17:35Z Bike: loke: i don't see any ambiguity in point one
2017-02-07T04:17:45Z loke: paule32: If you want to do stuff based on the type of a value, there is a dedicates construct for that: TYPECASE
2017-02-07T04:18:12Z loke: Bike: I'll read it again.
2017-02-07T04:19:10Z loke: paule32: You also should not be using CLISP. It's a dead project.
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2017-02-07T04:42:19Z Quadrescence: == is in CMU-INFIX, a library I just happily resurrected :D
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2017-02-07T04:45:37Z loke: Quadrescence: On QL?
2017-02-07T04:45:56Z Quadrescence: not yet, i just filed an issue for it
2017-02-07T04:46:11Z loke: Quadrescence: Femlisp also has infix
2017-02-07T04:48:03Z Quadrescence: Yeah, I saw that. I wanted something that wouldn't interfere with FEMLISP (possibly at my peril), and something that could be modernized and tested
2017-02-07T04:48:30Z Quadrescence: Also, I contacted the author regarding updates/maintenance/etc.
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2017-02-07T04:50:17Z Quadrescence: (You can compare here and let me know which you'd probably use were you to pull in a dependency for your project: https://github.com/rigetticomputing/cmu-infix )
2017-02-07T04:51:45Z loke: (ql:system-apropos "infix") reveals a few more
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2017-02-07T04:52:11Z Quadrescence: Yep. Including UGLY-TINY-INFIX-MACRO. ;)
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2017-02-07T05:37:36Z drmeister: Is there a format specifier for printing a user specified number of characters?   (format nil "~?*" 2) --> "  *"  (format nil "~?* 6) -> "      *"
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2017-02-07T06:44:25Z loke: drmeister: yes
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2017-02-07T06:55:49Z loke: drmeister: To asnwer your question, the following displays 10 character Z:
2017-02-07T06:55:50Z loke: (format t "~v,,,'Z<~>" 10)
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2017-02-07T07:23:01Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-07T07:40:00Z phoe: Morning!
2017-02-07T07:40:20Z beach: Hello phoe.
2017-02-07T07:50:33Z Bike: i found an interesting paper on a theory of overloaded functions with runtime dispatch and subtyping (so pretty CLOSy), if anyone's interested. castagna, "A Calculus for Overload Functions with Subtyping"
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2017-02-07T08:42:53Z flip214: Bike: would you mind sharing a link? or is that paywalled, and I should search for my own copy?
2017-02-07T08:43:22Z Bike: there's a pdf in google results, from psu or something
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2017-02-07T08:56:34Z jackdaniel: did anyone work with Telos? (non-clos object system having MOP – there is CL implementation of it too)
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2017-02-07T10:19:26Z frodef: morning
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2017-02-07T10:28:30Z phoe__: hello
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2017-02-07T10:38:56Z malice`: hi phoe__
2017-02-07T10:39:07Z phoe__: hey malice`
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2017-02-07T10:45:41Z phoe__: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/m_check_.htm
2017-02-07T10:45:52Z phoe__: At the bottom of Examples, there is a sentence "Control is transferred to a handler. "
2017-02-07T10:45:58Z phoe__: What does it in mean there?
2017-02-07T10:46:14Z ogamita: An error is signaled.
2017-02-07T10:46:24Z phoe__: Yes, but when is control transferred to a handler?
2017-02-07T10:46:29Z phoe__: In which situations?
2017-02-07T10:46:51Z ogamita: And there's a handler to handle the error. The handler has a restart to let you enter a new value (of a matching type).
2017-02-07T10:46:56Z ogamita: So not all is lost.
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2017-02-07T10:46:59Z phoe__: Does it mean the example above? I can see the example above finally returning a value though.
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2017-02-07T10:47:12Z phoe__: This sentence seems misplaced.
2017-02-07T10:47:24Z ogamita: Well, the key word in the spec, is the *correctable* error that is signaled.
2017-02-07T10:47:38Z phoe__: No. I don't mean this.
2017-02-07T10:47:47Z phoe__: What is this sentence doing at this point of the specification?
2017-02-07T10:47:51Z phoe__: What is its purpose?
2017-02-07T10:47:56Z phoe__: What does it refer to?
2017-02-07T10:48:09Z phoe__: Why does its purpose seem completely unclear to me?
2017-02-07T10:48:42Z phoe__: I get that CHECK-TYPE signals a CERROR.
2017-02-07T10:48:57Z phoe__: I don't get that particular sentence in that particular spot.
2017-02-07T10:49:22Z ogamita: Remember that Examples are not part of the specification.  So they've been less closely read and checked, and there may be sometimes some ambiguous or puzzling sentences in the Examples.
2017-02-07T10:49:40Z ogamita: phoe__: It looks like it should have been erased, indeed.
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2017-02-07T10:49:55Z phoe__: > Remember that Examples are not part of the specification.
2017-02-07T10:49:56Z phoe__: What?
2017-02-07T10:50:06Z phoe__: Really?
2017-02-07T10:50:08Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-02-07T10:50:13Z jackdaniel: it's somewhere in the spec
2017-02-07T10:50:24Z phoe__: Woah.
2017-02-07T10:50:46Z ogamita: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/01_dc.htm
2017-02-07T10:51:02Z jackdaniel: they are just illustrating the spec, not defining it
2017-02-07T10:51:10Z jackdaniel: if some illustration is wrong, well, shame that
2017-02-07T10:51:28Z phoe__: I see.
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2017-02-07T10:51:46Z phoe__: Well, to hell with that sentence then.
2017-02-07T10:51:50Z phoe__ makes a CLUS edit
2017-02-07T10:51:53Z ogamita: exactly :-)
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2017-02-07T10:53:08Z beach: Hello frodef.
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2017-02-07T11:15:12Z Younder: Development of my 'auto-quad' a autonomous quad-copter has started. Got my Jetson TX-1 and a few bits from adafruit like GPS and IMU (Inertial measurement unit). Waining for a numato board with a Spartan-6 FPGA.  All this is unrelated to Lisp unless DrMeister can get Clasp to work.  Despite appearances this is mostly a software problem. Making Computer Vision work at a bug level. I'm loving it
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2017-02-07T11:15:52Z phoe__: Younder: #clasp sounds like a good choice for you, too!
2017-02-07T11:16:21Z Younder: phoe__, I'm there already ;)
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2017-02-07T11:26:37Z shka: Younder: why clasp?
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2017-02-07T11:28:31Z Younder: shka it allows easy access to C++ libraries like OpenCV and Caffe. Also it is nased on LLVM which runs on ARM processors.
2017-02-07T11:28:38Z Younder: based
2017-02-07T11:28:48Z shka: what about ECL?
2017-02-07T11:30:02Z Younder: It doesn't work on ARM (yet) and you would need C glue to access C++ classes.
2017-02-07T11:30:17Z shka: hmmm
2017-02-07T11:30:30Z shka: i was certain that it works on ARM
2017-02-07T11:31:01Z shka: and not so sure about second point
2017-02-07T11:31:25Z shka: jackdaniel: could you please clarify?
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2017-02-07T11:31:55Z shka: Younder: clasp is awesome, but ecl is already established implementation
2017-02-07T11:32:06Z Younder: agreed
2017-02-07T11:32:51Z jackdaniel: clarify what?
2017-02-07T11:32:56Z jackdaniel: I have Younder on ignore list
2017-02-07T11:32:59Z Younder: I might just do the whole thing in C/C++.
2017-02-07T11:33:01Z jackdaniel: if it's something he said
2017-02-07T11:33:16Z shka: ouch
2017-02-07T11:33:19Z shka: ook
2017-02-07T11:33:36Z shka: [12:26] <shka> Younder: why clasp?
2017-02-07T11:33:38Z shka: [12:26] --> pve (~pve@dsl-hkibrasgw3-58c3df-190.dhcp.inet.fi) dołączył do tego kanału.
2017-02-07T11:33:39Z shka: [12:28] <Younder> shka it allows easy access to C++ libraries like OpenCV and Caffe. Also it is nased on LLVM which runs on ARM processors.
2017-02-07T11:33:41Z shka: [12:28] <Younder> based
2017-02-07T11:33:42Z shka: [12:28] <shka> what about ECL?
2017-02-07T11:33:44Z shka: [12:30] <Younder> It doesn't work on ARM (yet) and you would need C glue to access C++ classes.
2017-02-07T11:33:49Z shka: jackdaniel: that would be it
2017-02-07T11:34:05Z jackdaniel: that's a kind of fud which was a reason why I have ignored him
2017-02-07T11:34:14Z jackdaniel: ECL works on arm, what's more, SBCL works on ARM, CCL too
2017-02-07T11:34:30Z shka: that's my impression
2017-02-07T11:34:33Z jackdaniel: regarding C++ access, ECL has option --with-cxx
2017-02-07T11:34:36Z shka: what about C++?
2017-02-07T11:34:38Z jackdaniel: and there is no need for glue
2017-02-07T11:34:44Z shka: yeah, that's what i thought
2017-02-07T11:34:47Z jackdaniel: produced native code is compiled with g++
2017-02-07T11:34:49Z shka: thank you!
2017-02-07T11:34:52Z Younder: Sorry if I insulted ECL in the past. I said Lisp is a small community and it might be better to consolidate the effort in ONE implementation. That is all. Xach convinced me that was a bad idea and I have come to agree.
2017-02-07T11:35:01Z jackdaniel: sure thing :)
2017-02-07T11:35:52Z shka: Younder: one implementation approach is not really nice
2017-02-07T11:36:00Z Younder: right
2017-02-07T11:36:03Z shka: but that's besides the point
2017-02-07T11:36:35Z shka: as I thought, ECL would work well in your project
2017-02-07T11:36:54Z shka: you may still use clasp if you really want to
2017-02-07T11:37:12Z shka: but note that it is still in heavy development
2017-02-07T11:37:14Z Younder: Well I'll try.
2017-02-07T11:37:36Z Younder: Is there a stable version for a ARM 64 bit?
2017-02-07T11:38:00Z shka: yes
2017-02-07T11:38:24Z shka: as jackdaniel said, ECL works by generating C/C++ code that is compiled by GCC
2017-02-07T11:38:24Z Younder: esxcellent, I'll look into it
2017-02-07T11:39:22Z shka: and since GCC is almost everywhere this days (and perhaps on every linux) it is safe to say that ECL is very portable implementation
2017-02-07T11:39:42Z shka: perhaps even THE most portable implementation
2017-02-07T11:44:02Z Younder: 4 1.7 GHz 64 bit processors and 256 CUDA cores and 4 Gb of RAM may seem like a lot for a credit-card sized board that used 10 watts. And it is. But is still at the lower limit of what allows computer vision. I'll just have to see if I get enough speed.
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2017-02-07T11:51:35Z Younder: jackdaniel, I agree that I might be prejudiced and not all knowing. But, in the future inform me rather than condemn me. I am not immune to reason.
2017-02-07T11:57:33Z Younder: Some would say I am too assertive. That I lack humility. That my ambitions and perceptions don't match my abilities. They would be right. But then again neither do yours when you look truthfully at it.
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2017-02-07T11:58:11Z Younder: I will try to improve, but I can't change my nature.
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2017-02-07T12:02:00Z Younder: As far as mis-information, Xach's favorite, I think I have stopped. Or at least tried to. Sorry about claiming ECL didn't run on ARM. It wasn't exactly wrong. What I was referring to was an earlier discussion on running ECL on android.
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2017-02-07T12:03:33Z Younder: There is a difference between just getting the compiler to run and interfacing to the libraries.
2017-02-07T12:10:57Z Younder: By the way a Jetson YX-1 runs, in it's latest update, Ubuntu 16.04 so that isn't a issue
2017-02-07T12:11:03Z Younder: TX-1
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2017-02-07T12:15:00Z John[Lisbeth]: has common lisp been ported to lambda calculus?
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2017-02-07T12:16:57Z Younder: lol, have you come across a lambda-calculus compiler? It is based on lambda calculus, at least in it's original form in 1956.
2017-02-07T12:17:31Z John[Lisbeth]: So any machine which is true to the lambda calculus should be able to run common lisp
2017-02-07T12:18:01Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: let me ask a question: have you ever seen Turing Machine?
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2017-02-07T12:18:23Z Younder: It is very impractical to make a machine run lambda calculus.
2017-02-07T12:18:53Z John[Lisbeth]: though it should be feasable today to put common lisp in a lambda calculus machine
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2017-02-07T12:19:31Z Younder: My reference on these things is 'The formal semantics of programming languages' by Glynn Winskel
2017-02-07T12:19:32Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: what the heck is lambda calculus machine anyway?
2017-02-07T12:20:07Z John[Lisbeth]: a machine built from a lambda made out of lambdas and a y combinator made out of lambdas
2017-02-07T12:20:10Z paule32: (cond ((eq ntype 'BIT)     return-from T)
2017-02-07T12:20:18Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: There are no such machines.  You could write an interpreter for the lambda calculus, of course.  It would be very slow, so it is not practical.
2017-02-07T12:20:20Z paule32: *** - COND: variable RETURN-FROM has no value
2017-02-07T12:20:22Z jackdaniel: lambda calculus is a computation model, not a machine. yes, Common Lisp implements lambda calculus. please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus
2017-02-07T12:20:35Z beach: paule32: Sounds right.
2017-02-07T12:20:55Z paule32: but the last
2017-02-07T12:21:11Z shka: paule32: return-from name-of-block value
2017-02-07T12:21:19Z John[Lisbeth]: my point though is if I make a lambda calculus interpreter then I could take existing common lisp and put that into it
2017-02-07T12:21:31Z shka: use return instead because that's what i think you want
2017-02-07T12:21:45Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: just as emulate C
2017-02-07T12:21:49Z shka: John[Lisbeth]: what's the point?
2017-02-07T12:21:52Z beach: shka: return also has no value.
2017-02-07T12:21:55Z John[Lisbeth]: not quite
2017-02-07T12:22:01Z John[Lisbeth]: in order to emulate c you have to use alot of steps inbetween
2017-02-07T12:22:12Z John[Lisbeth]: whereas it is a very small number of steps to interpret the lambda calculus
2017-02-07T12:22:20Z John[Lisbeth]: and a smal number of steps from the lambda calculus to common lisp
2017-02-07T12:22:21Z paule32: shka: same
2017-02-07T12:22:32Z beach: paule32: What are you trying to do?
2017-02-07T12:22:51Z shka: beach: uh, what? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/m_return.htm
2017-02-07T12:23:03Z shka: paule32: pase whole code
2017-02-07T12:23:07Z beach: shka: paule32 used it as a variable, not as an operator.
2017-02-07T12:23:21Z shka: aaaah, right
2017-02-07T12:23:22Z beach: shka: So neither return-from nor return has a value.
2017-02-07T12:23:29Z shka: yeah, got that
2017-02-07T12:23:33Z shka: i didn't notice
2017-02-07T12:23:41Z shka: paule32: *paste
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2017-02-07T12:25:16Z Younder: John[Lisbeth], Have you tried to write the code to multiply two numbers in Lambda calculus?
2017-02-07T12:25:19Z beach: shka: Besides, what makes you think that paule32 has a block named NIL?
2017-02-07T12:25:35Z paule32: shka: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550374/64703011/
2017-02-07T12:25:39Z John[Lisbeth]: Younder: very easy to do
2017-02-07T12:25:42Z shka: beach: typical use case, that's why i ask for whole thing
2017-02-07T12:26:00Z John[Lisbeth]: Younder: once you have lambdas the rest is just copying the forumulas
2017-02-07T12:26:06Z shka: yeah
2017-02-07T12:26:15Z shka: paule32: ok so write it like this
2017-02-07T12:26:21Z shka: (defun getTypeNumber (n)
2017-02-07T12:26:23Z shka:   (setf ntype (type-of n))
2017-02-07T12:26:24Z z0d: John[Lisbeth]: there is no lambda calculus "machine". LC is a theoretical model, not a programming language
2017-02-07T12:26:24Z shka:   (cond ((eq ntype 'BIT)     return T)
2017-02-07T12:26:25Z beach: paule32: Don't put whitespace before a closing parenthesis.
2017-02-07T12:26:26Z shka:        ((eq ntype 'INTEGER) return T)
2017-02-07T12:26:27Z shka:         (return F)
2017-02-07T12:26:29Z shka:   )
2017-02-07T12:26:30Z shka: )
2017-02-07T12:26:32Z shka: damn it
2017-02-07T12:26:33Z shka: sorry
2017-02-07T12:26:35Z shka: !
2017-02-07T12:26:37Z John[Lisbeth]: z0d: there is such a lambda calculus machine if you use the y combinator
2017-02-07T12:26:47Z z0d: John[Lisbeth]: it doesn't have e.g. numbers (yeah, you can use Church numerals), no I/O etc.
2017-02-07T12:27:02Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: it is more a topic for lispcafe
2017-02-07T12:27:06Z beach: paule32: What is `F' in your code?  There is no such variable in Common Lisp.
2017-02-07T12:27:10Z shka: http://pastebin.com/2uf9uWjt
2017-02-07T12:27:30Z beach: paule32: You can't use SETF on a variable that has not been defined.
2017-02-07T12:27:32Z paule32: False
2017-02-07T12:27:32Z sjl: kind of surprised it took me this long to write a COLLECT-HASH iterate clause https://github.com/sjl/cl-losh/blob/master/losh.lisp#L1460-L1485
2017-02-07T12:27:58Z shka: paule32: grab some book about common lisp, you don't need return, you could just use or instead of cond, F is not defined in your code
2017-02-07T12:28:01Z beach: paule32: There is no `F' in Common Lisp.
2017-02-07T12:28:34Z beach: paule32: Don't use CamelCase identifiers in Common Lisp.
2017-02-07T12:28:43Z shka: and that (setf ntype (type-of n)) is just wrong
2017-02-07T12:28:52Z beach: paule32: Put three semicolons on a top-level comment.
2017-02-07T12:29:02Z phoe__: clhs apply
2017-02-07T12:29:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2017-02-07T12:29:11Z phoe__: How should I treat examples that have undefined consequences?
2017-02-07T12:29:23Z beach: paule32: put a single blank before the first left parenthesis in a group.
2017-02-07T12:29:24Z phoe__: Should I treat them like I treat errors?
2017-02-07T12:29:26Z Younder: John[Lisbeth], It is better to reduce it into something the microprocessor knows how t handle like multiply and the avoid reducing it further. You can of-course verify that it can be done in lambda calculus.
2017-02-07T12:29:36Z shka: phoe__: as examples that are undefined i guess ;-)
2017-02-07T12:29:49Z beach: paule32: Use an editor that is able to indent your code correctly.
2017-02-07T12:30:07Z phoe__: shka: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-07T12:30:18Z paule32: ok, thank you
2017-02-07T12:30:20Z phoe__: I have three styles so far: for output, returns and errors.
2017-02-07T12:30:41Z phoe__: Do I need to create a new style for what is undefined?
2017-02-07T12:30:49Z shka: paule32: pardon my question, but there is a lot wrong in this code, do you follow some kind of book here?
2017-02-07T12:31:12Z shka: phoe__: i would do so, yes
2017-02-07T12:31:29Z shka: or even put undefined examples in separate section
2017-02-07T12:31:32Z paule32: shka: ehm, only online code in online books, references, yes
2017-02-07T12:31:59Z phoe__: minion: tell paule32 about pcl
2017-02-07T12:32:00Z minion: paule32: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-02-07T12:32:05Z beach: paule32: You need to read a book and work the exercises.
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2017-02-07T12:32:26Z shka: paule32: sadly, that won't be good enough, CL is different from other languages
2017-02-07T12:32:34Z shka: it is not just python with lots of ()
2017-02-07T12:32:56Z shka: just like phoe__, i recommend to read PCL
2017-02-07T12:33:03Z shka: it is mostly free, it is good
2017-02-07T12:33:23Z shka: also, it is rather complete introduction
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2017-02-07T12:33:36Z paule32: i came from html, c++
2017-02-07T12:34:23Z phoe__: paule32: Lisp is a very good language but it's not a very good C++.
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2017-02-07T12:34:42Z shka: well, makes no difference -- it is still good idea to read PCL
2017-02-07T12:34:47Z phoe__: ^
2017-02-07T12:34:55Z prole: I would advice if you're not too much into programming, "Common Lisp: A gentle introduction to symbolic computation"
2017-02-07T12:35:11Z prole: It does in depth in the cons cell system, and have real exercices
2017-02-07T12:35:20Z phoe__: minion: tell paule32 about gentle
2017-02-07T12:35:21Z minion: paule32: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
2017-02-07T12:35:21Z prole: But it's maybe too much simple for a programmer
2017-02-07T12:35:37Z phoe__: prole: it's fun if someone does not have any actual programming experience
2017-02-07T12:35:40Z paule32: i would do (in the future) ai research
2017-02-07T12:35:52Z prole: phoe__: I did, and I had a lot of un
2017-02-07T12:35:54Z prole: fun*
2017-02-07T12:35:56Z shka: paule32: hopefully this is not all that discouraging :-)
2017-02-07T12:35:58Z prole: I really liked it
2017-02-07T12:36:28Z paule32: shka: i plan to implement Qt5 - the GUI framework
2017-02-07T12:36:35Z prole: And there were real exercice, not example like in PCL
2017-02-07T12:37:14Z prole: I have huge trouble to actually do the examples in PCL as exercices
2017-02-07T12:37:31Z malice`: prole: what do you mean?
2017-02-07T12:37:48Z shka: paule32: uh, it is work in progress AFAIK already
2017-02-07T12:37:57Z prole: Like when I start a practical chapter, I does blind in, and then, where I compare what I did with the book example, I just realise that I did all wrong
2017-02-07T12:38:03Z shka: common qt is working toward Qt5 support
2017-02-07T12:38:04Z prole: goes*
2017-02-07T12:38:05Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2017-02-07T12:38:05Z jackdaniel: prole: ansi common lisp (by paul graham) has some nice excercises
2017-02-07T12:38:07Z _main_ is now known as __main__
2017-02-07T12:38:16Z prole: I'll look at it so
2017-02-07T12:38:26Z malice`: prole: well that's good, isn't it?
2017-02-07T12:38:27Z jackdaniel: it's not freely available though
2017-02-07T12:38:46Z jackdaniel: EQL5 has support for QT5
2017-02-07T12:38:53Z malice`: prole: imho it's better to first learn the proper way to do things, and then do them the right thing, then first do things, and hope you did okay
2017-02-07T12:39:06Z shka: jackdaniel: it has support for QML
2017-02-07T12:39:11Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-02-07T12:39:20Z paule32: cewl
2017-02-07T12:39:20Z shka: not whole Qt5 AFAIK
2017-02-07T12:39:31Z jackdaniel: what do you mean?
2017-02-07T12:39:31Z malice`: prole: PCL has "Practical". It aims to provide real-life usage examples of Common Lisp. Real-life usages of language tend to be complex, sometimes boring, and have some corner cases.
2017-02-07T12:40:09Z malice`: prole: the examples are both meant to teach you something and show the real application of what you've just learned. Examples in "Gentle..." are meant to teach you only.
2017-02-07T12:40:09Z prole: I maybe don't try hard enough
2017-02-07T12:40:33Z shka: Qt5 is a framework for C++, part of it is QML. EQL5 allows you to use QML, but not write applications using C++ Qt widgets.
2017-02-07T12:40:35Z prole: Too much tempted to follow the examples
2017-02-07T12:40:39Z malice`: prole: therefore they often are designed in such way that you only should use what you've learned(recently), but that doesn't neccesarily mean that they want you to do things the right way.
2017-02-07T12:40:51Z jackdaniel: shka: how so?
2017-02-07T12:40:52Z prole: The problem is if I don't actually practice with exercice, I forget soon after
2017-02-07T12:41:18Z malice`: prole: I remember asking here how to do something that was an excercise in "gentle"... and the way that you should do it was much different from the one in the book.
2017-02-07T12:41:38Z prole: yeah, I can understand that there is not "the best way"
2017-02-07T12:41:39Z malice`: prole: no problem. Just read the chapter, go step by step implementing it, make sure it runs and you understand it, and then write it again yourself.
2017-02-07T12:41:59Z shka: jackdaniel: did i misunderstand something?
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2017-02-07T12:42:12Z malice`: prole: I didn't mean that there's no best way, but for example some operations weren't efficient(or good at all), but they wanted you to use them in that case so that you learn how to use some language feature
2017-02-07T12:42:14Z prole: Mmhh. Yeah, maybe should I try to reimplemente the example after. That's maybe what I'm lacking here
2017-02-07T12:42:17Z jackdaniel: EQL5 is ECL embedded in QT5, so it works with all of it
2017-02-07T12:42:36Z prole: malice`: yeah
2017-02-07T12:42:52Z malice`: prole: anyway, reimplementing the problem is what helped me a bit with On Lisp. The examples there are sometimes enormous/overwhelming, and reimplementing helps
2017-02-07T12:42:57Z shka: jackdaniel: aha!
2017-02-07T12:43:13Z shka does not like common qt that much anymore
2017-02-07T12:43:14Z shka: xD
2017-02-07T12:43:16Z prole: malice`: you're right. I'll do that
2017-02-07T12:43:40Z jackdaniel: shka: see https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5/blob/master/examples/7-Sokoban/eql-sokoban.lisp for that instance
2017-02-07T12:44:03Z malice`: prole: good luck :)
2017-02-07T12:44:15Z prole: malice`: thanks :)
2017-02-07T12:44:56Z paule32: (INTEGER 0 281474976710655)
2017-02-07T12:45:15Z paule32: that comes, when i try to get type
2017-02-07T12:45:20Z phoe__: paule32: looks like a type specifier, yes
2017-02-07T12:45:31Z paule32: 0 1 BIT
2017-02-07T12:45:37Z phoe__: basically, it's an integer between 0 and 281474976710655
2017-02-07T12:45:44Z phoe__: 0 1 BIT?
2017-02-07T12:46:02Z paule32: i wonder me, why 2 .. not INTEGER
2017-02-07T12:46:04Z ogamita: (list (type-of 0) (type-of 1)) #| --> (bit bit) |#
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2017-02-07T12:46:16Z ogamita: (list (type-of 0) (type-of 1) (type-of 2)) #| --> (bit bit (integer 0 1152921504606846975)) |#
2017-02-07T12:46:41Z paule32: yes
2017-02-07T12:46:59Z phoe__: paule32: becase TYPE-OF gives you the most specific type it can find.
2017-02-07T12:47:06Z shka: jackdaniel: that is actually quite awesome! thanks
2017-02-07T12:47:08Z paule32: but i need extra stuff, to extract INTEGER from list
2017-02-07T12:47:10Z jackdaniel: sure
2017-02-07T12:47:17Z phoe__: paule32: what's your problem?
2017-02-07T12:47:18Z ogamita: (typep 2 '(integer 2 2)) #| --> t |#
2017-02-07T12:47:29Z phoe__: What is your input data?
2017-02-07T12:47:30Z ogamita: type-of is not too specific…
2017-02-07T12:47:38Z phoe__: What do you need to do with it?
2017-02-07T12:48:05Z paule32: (write (getTypeNumber 2)))
2017-02-07T12:48:41Z phoe__: what is getTypeNumber?
2017-02-07T12:48:53Z malice`: paule32: that's not Lisp style.
2017-02-07T12:48:54Z phoe__: (use http://paste.lisp.org/ for bigger bodies of code)
2017-02-07T12:49:26Z malice`: paule32: in Lisp, we-use-this-notation-for-functions AndThisForClasses, usually.
2017-02-07T12:49:38Z malice`: but you can also write class-like-that
2017-02-07T12:49:48Z malice`: basically we prefer hypens
2017-02-07T12:49:58Z phoe__: malice`: AndThisForClasses?
2017-02-07T12:50:03Z malice`: s/en/hen
2017-02-07T12:50:08Z malice`: phoe__: depends on the code
2017-02-07T12:50:36Z phoe__: I don't see this style often^Wat all in the code I read.
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2017-02-07T12:50:45Z malice`: maybe hyphen-case is indeed more popular
2017-02-07T12:50:48Z paule32: i would like return T if number is BIT or INTEGER, else False -> nil
2017-02-07T12:50:53Z malice`: but I'm sure I've seen few of these cases
2017-02-07T12:51:11Z phoe__: paule32: no need to return T.
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2017-02-07T12:51:22Z phoe__: Common Lisp has generalized booleans, so everything non-NIL is true.
2017-02-07T12:51:24Z paule32: yes, i have fix it
2017-02-07T12:51:53Z phoe__: clhs bit
2017-02-07T12:51:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_bit.htm
2017-02-07T12:52:00Z malice`: paule32: (lambda (x) (typep x '(or integer bit)))
2017-02-07T12:52:03Z phoe__: malice`: no need to
2017-02-07T12:52:06Z phoe__: every bit is an integer
2017-02-07T12:52:06Z malice`: since BIT is integer
2017-02-07T12:52:17Z phoe__: (typep x 'integer)
2017-02-07T12:52:17Z malice`: translates to (lambda (x) (typep x 'integer))
2017-02-07T12:52:24Z phoe__: so basically
2017-02-07T12:52:24Z malice`: phoe__: I know, I just wanted to show (or ) syntax
2017-02-07T12:52:26Z phoe__: clhs integerp
2017-02-07T12:52:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_inte_1.htm
2017-02-07T12:52:31Z phoe__: paule32: that's your function
2017-02-07T12:52:35Z malice`: yes
2017-02-07T12:52:55Z phoe__: (Geez, I've become somewhat proficient with utilizing the CL spec in the past few months...)
2017-02-07T12:52:59Z phoe__: (Too much CLUS.)
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2017-02-07T12:55:51Z shaftoe: Really quit SBCL? (y or n)
2017-02-07T12:56:52Z phoe__: shaftoe: T
2017-02-07T12:57:26Z ogamita: In the standard, there's  y-or-n-p and yes-or-no-p but not T-or-NIL-p  :-)
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2017-02-07T13:02:13Z Younder: Do you use T and nil in conversation?
2017-02-07T13:04:23Z Younder: Anyhow generic boolean is different from true and false. You are either a part of something which means you inherit from T or you don't which means nil.
2017-02-07T13:04:53Z Younder: - or you are not-
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2017-02-07T13:06:10Z phoe__: ogamita: there's #'IDENTITY which is close enough
2017-02-07T13:06:38Z phoe__: but, uh, t-or-nil-p would be (or (eq x t) (eq x nil))?
2017-02-07T13:06:41Z phoe__: sounds pretty insane to me
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2017-02-07T13:07:52Z ogamita: phoe__: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Front/X_Alph_Y.htm
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2017-02-07T13:08:42Z ogamita: (defun t-or-nil-p (&optional control &rest arguments) (query-binary-answer control arguments "t" "nil"))
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2017-02-07T13:09:13Z ogamita: assuming (defun y-or-n-p (&optional control &rest arguments) (query-binary-answer control arguments "y" "n")) and  (defun yes-or-no-p (&optional control &rest arguments) (query-binary-answer control arguments "yes" "no"))
2017-02-07T13:09:34Z phoe__: ogamita: ooh, they're interactive
2017-02-07T13:09:36Z phoe__: right.
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2017-02-07T13:10:05Z ogamita: phoe__: and there you have another pair of "predicates" that are not predicates :-)
2017-02-07T13:10:11Z phoe__: ;_;
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2017-02-07T13:10:17Z phoe__: this is so terrible
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2017-02-07T13:12:07Z ogamita: Clearly, our ancestors where a funny pack of joyful jesters.
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2017-02-07T13:13:01Z Younder: eq in general is twitchy. That means two things occupy the same memory address.
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2017-02-07T13:13:20Z ogamita: Younder: wrong.
2017-02-07T13:13:45Z Younder: Not that they are the same. eql at least works for numbers.
2017-02-07T13:13:49Z ogamita: (eq 4 4) may return T even while both 4 are not stored at the same address!
2017-02-07T13:14:27Z phoe__: Is an implementation permitted to implement EQ as EQL?
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2017-02-07T13:14:36Z ogamita: Younder: the definition of EQ is: Returns true if its arguments are the same, identical object; otherwise, returns false.
2017-02-07T13:14:42Z ogamita: phoe__: yes.
2017-02-07T13:14:59Z phoe__: ogamita: yes, it looked like that to me.
2017-02-07T13:15:06Z Younder: Let's go over this again. eq - eql - equal - equalp
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2017-02-07T13:16:08Z phoe__: Younder: no need to, simply ask CLHS for eq, eql, equal, equalp
2017-02-07T13:16:41Z Younder: well you do
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2017-02-07T13:17:59Z ogamita: Younder: to understand why (eq 4 4) may be T when 4 is not stored in the same address as 4, you have to consider that fixnums are often unboxed, and therefore when passing a fixnum as parameter, it is copied (there is only parameter passing by copy in lisp!)  So even with (let ((x 4)) (eq x x)), two copies of 4 end on the stack, at two different addresses.
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2017-02-07T13:19:40Z ogamita: Younder: then eq will see that they are fixnums, ie. unboxed values, and will compare them directly, by loading the value at the stack address sp+8, and loading the other value at the stack address sp+16, and comparing. So 2 different addresses, and same value, eq returns T.
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2017-02-07T13:20:31Z ogamita: Younder: of course, for (let ((x (1+ most-positive-fixnum)) (y (1+ most-positive-fixnum))) (eq x y)) the situation would be different since now what is copied on the stack are not the values (they're too big), but their addresses.
2017-02-07T13:21:16Z ogamita: So in sp+8 we have the address of the first copy of the (1+ most-positive-fixnum) value, and in sp+16, we have the address of the second copy.  Both addresses are different therefore eq will return NIL.
2017-02-07T13:21:47Z ogamita: But if you write (let ((x (1+ most-positive-fixnum))) (eq x x)) then the same address is pushed on the stack twice, so eq will return T.
2017-02-07T13:22:16Z ogamita: And then, an implementation could box fixnums too, so (eq 4 4) could also return nil.
2017-02-07T13:23:05Z ogamita: And it could even box fixnums, AND copy the boxes when passed as parameters! So even (let ((x 4)) (eq x x)) could be nil! (cf last example).
2017-02-07T13:25:39Z Younder: ogamita, so it is confusing and what you usually want is eql
2017-02-07T13:27:10Z phoe__: Younder: I sometimes use EQ for comparing class instances.
2017-02-07T13:27:48Z phoe__: Whenever I want to make a point that I'll be comparing objects with "strong" identity, compared to "weak" identity of fixnums and chars..
2017-02-07T13:28:07Z phoe__: But yes EQ/EQL is confusing.
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2017-02-07T13:39:41Z axion: What is a brief way to merge adjacent lists in a list of lists? efficiency is not important at all, only brevity. ex: '((1 2) (3 4) (1 2) (3 4)) => '((1 2 3 4) (1 2 3 4))
2017-02-07T13:41:09Z Xach: (loop for (a b) on list by #'cddr collect (append a b))
2017-02-07T13:41:22Z shaftoe: defparameter or defconstant for constants? this style-guide is recommending defparameter: http://lisp-lang.org/style-guide/#naming
2017-02-07T13:41:41Z axion: Ah, yes, forgot about the by clause
2017-02-07T13:41:43Z axion: Thanks Xach
2017-02-07T13:41:52Z Xach: shaftoe: i use defparameter, usually, unless it's an integer and is unlikely to change
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2017-02-07T13:42:29Z shaftoe: i'll go through the clhs for both
2017-02-07T13:42:34Z shaftoe: thanks xach
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2017-02-07T13:43:20Z Xach: the problem with defconstant is sbcl will complain if you use strings or arrays or other things you might think you'd want to define as constants
2017-02-07T13:44:00Z Xach: you can either use something like alexandria:define-constant or just use defparameter or defvar.
2017-02-07T13:44:37Z shaftoe: is defconstant assumed by the compiler to be numbers?
2017-02-07T13:45:09Z shaftoe: or rather, expected
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2017-02-07T13:45:57Z beach: shaftoe: No.
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2017-02-07T13:46:26Z beach: clhs defconstant
2017-02-07T13:46:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcon.htm
2017-02-07T13:46:48Z Xach: shaftoe: no. but it does have some language about eql-ness and redefinition.
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2017-02-07T13:48:18Z beach: shaftoe: "The consequences are undefined ... if the value is not eql to the value of initial-value."
2017-02-07T13:48:57Z larsen: (shaftoe: sorry, just noticed your nick. are you a Neal Stephenson fan?)
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2017-02-07T13:50:00Z shaftoe: perhaps
2017-02-07T13:50:02Z shaftoe: :)
2017-02-07T13:50:08Z shaftoe: well recognized
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2017-02-07T13:50:34Z shaftoe: beach: there seems to be a lot of "the consequences/behavior is undefined" in clhs
2017-02-07T13:51:09Z shka: shaftoe: it is typical for all standards
2017-02-07T13:51:26Z beach: shaftoe: Yes, a bit too much.
2017-02-07T13:51:35Z shka: you can't define everything in standard
2017-02-07T13:51:39Z shka: and if you would try
2017-02-07T13:51:46Z shka: nobody would actually implement that
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2017-02-07T13:52:29Z shaftoe: "the best thing about standards..."
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2017-02-07T14:25:22Z varjag: yay.. got the world's first lisp avi/mjpeg decoder working
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2017-02-07T14:28:10Z shaftoe: is the code up on github yet? :)
2017-02-07T14:28:41Z varjag: sure
2017-02-07T14:28:45Z varjag: a bit untidy though
2017-02-07T14:29:02Z varjag: https://github.com/varjagg/cl-video
2017-02-07T14:30:13Z varjag: no sound (although the sound stream is "handled"), no indexing
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2017-02-07T14:31:19Z varjag: but you'd need the branch of cl-jpeg that hasn't been merged yet :p
2017-02-07T14:32:00Z shaftoe: thanks for putting your code on github
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2017-02-07T14:33:02Z ogamita: varjag: are you sure it's the first mjpeg decoder? Didn't they prototype that on LispMachines?
2017-02-07T14:33:16Z ogamita: jj
2017-02-07T14:33:28Z ogamita: congrats!
2017-02-07T14:33:43Z varjag: given that jpeg itu standard appeared around 19922.. doubt it :9
2017-02-07T14:33:45Z varjag: thanks
2017-02-07T14:34:44Z ogamita: Well LispMachines were still in use in 1992.
2017-02-07T14:35:00Z varjag: it's not a very practical one, and you'd need a really beefy cpu to play even 720p with it in real time
2017-02-07T14:35:29Z varjag: you can argue lispmachines are still in use
2017-02-07T14:35:45Z varjag: with hardcore enthusiasts
2017-02-07T14:36:09Z dlowe: varjag: it's easier to make a slow thing fast than to make something from nothing :)
2017-02-07T14:36:15Z varjag: true
2017-02-07T14:36:26Z varjag: i need to profile a hell out of it
2017-02-07T14:36:32Z varjag: pretty sure there's room for improvement
2017-02-07T14:36:42Z varjag: although only so much you can do without simd support
2017-02-07T14:37:30Z phoe__: congrats, varjag!
2017-02-07T14:37:55Z varjag: thanks
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2017-02-07T14:38:16Z varjag: i had to give up on sdl, and do it with bare clx as a proper old fart
2017-02-07T14:38:55Z varjag: wasted a day trying to blt a bitmap
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2017-02-07T14:39:48Z varjag: but the decoder core in cl-video.lisp is decoupled from player
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2017-02-07T14:41:21Z phoe__: varjag: this is surprisingly little code
2017-02-07T14:41:52Z varjag: phoe__: most of the heavy action is in cl-jpeg
2017-02-07T14:42:16Z phoe__: yes, I guessed as much.
2017-02-07T14:43:26Z varjag: stumbled on a blog post about avi last wednesday, and it occured that we have most already in lispland
2017-02-07T14:43:38Z varjag: the jpeg decoder; cl-riff for container
2017-02-07T14:43:48Z Xach: cool
2017-02-07T14:43:49Z varjag: how hard can that be!
2017-02-07T14:44:11Z Xach: how hard indeed
2017-02-07T14:44:13Z Xach: to heck with ffi
2017-02-07T14:44:23Z varjag: yes!
2017-02-07T14:45:05Z varjag: anyway need to tidy up and merge some small cl-jpeg changes
2017-02-07T14:45:10Z varjag: will then do a proper announce
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2017-02-07T14:45:48Z Xach: cool
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2017-02-07T14:48:21Z paule32: i have a struct "Letter"
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2017-02-07T14:48:36Z phoe__: varjag: make sure /r/lisp and/or /r/common_lisp knows
2017-02-07T14:49:03Z paule32: then:  (setq Letter-A (make-structLetter : symbol "a"))
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2017-02-07T14:49:27Z ogamita: varjag: and news:comp.lang.lisp!
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2017-02-07T14:49:36Z paule32: how can i "loop" throug "Letter-A" till "Letter-Z"
2017-02-07T14:49:41Z varjag: phoe__: killed my reddit acct, but am sure someone will pick it up from the planet
2017-02-07T14:50:01Z varjag: ogamita: haha is c.l.l still around
2017-02-07T14:50:03Z ogamita: (loop for code from (char-code #\A) to (char-code #\Z) for ch = (code-char code) do …)
2017-02-07T14:50:28Z ogamita: varjag: I still browse it; I don't know what /r/ is (never used it, since not written in lisp).
2017-02-07T14:51:07Z rpav: i don't think char-codes are guaranteed to be in an order
2017-02-07T14:51:19Z ogamita: rpav: very good point.
2017-02-07T14:51:20Z rpav: e.g. you might get aAbBcC...
2017-02-07T14:51:44Z ogamita: Add #+ascii before it, and #-ascii (loop for ch across "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ" do …)
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2017-02-07T14:52:06Z paule32: i mean (setq Letter-A (make-structLetter :symbol "a")
2017-02-07T14:52:21Z paule32: till: (setq Letter-Z (make-structLetter :symbol "z")
2017-02-07T14:52:31Z rpav: one of the unicode libs might be helpful, not sure
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2017-02-07T14:53:19Z ogamita: paule32: (defmacro define-letter-structures () `(progn ,@(loop for ch across "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ" collect `(defparameter ,(intern (format "LETTER-~A" ch)) (make-structletter :symbol ,(string-downcase ch)))))) (define-letter-structures)
2017-02-07T14:53:26Z phoe__: varjag: make an announcement, I'll happily announce it.
2017-02-07T14:53:33Z phoe__: paule32: why do you want to make letter structures!?
2017-02-07T14:53:45Z phoe__: are characters not enough?
2017-02-07T14:53:46Z dlowe: ogamita: why a macro?
2017-02-07T14:53:48Z phoe__: clhs 13.1
2017-02-07T14:53:49Z specbot: Character Concepts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_a.htm
2017-02-07T14:53:55Z ogamita: And why do you name symbol a slot that contains a string!??!?
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2017-02-07T14:54:15Z ogamita: dlowe: a macro to be able to do it easily at compilation time, while having an effect at run-time.
2017-02-07T14:54:21Z rpav: defsstruct? for all this trouble you should be defining clos metaobjects! let's properly overengineer here
2017-02-07T14:54:41Z dlowe: ogamita: I guess. I would probably just use an eval-when.
2017-02-07T14:54:56Z ogamita: it's a possibility.
2017-02-07T14:55:01Z paule32: phoe__: for ai research: when i read-in "what is A"  then the lisp code should print out "is a letter" and the meaning (vocal, consonabnt) ...
2017-02-07T14:55:04Z ogamita: in this case, I felt a macro would be better.
2017-02-07T14:55:31Z ogamita: paule32: you could have a representation of knowledge that is less specific.
2017-02-07T14:55:41Z ogamita: What is a cat?
2017-02-07T14:55:55Z ogamita: I have a cat named C.  What is a C? What is C?
2017-02-07T14:56:04Z paule32: yes
2017-02-07T14:57:27Z KZiemian: What happend?
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2017-02-07T14:59:45Z phoe__: KZiemian: ?
2017-02-07T15:00:04Z phoe__: paule32: looks like you're creating a dictionary of sorts
2017-02-07T15:00:22Z phoe__: I mean, like, dictionary as in encyclopedia
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2017-02-07T15:01:09Z KZiemian: phoe__: This is serious discusion going on. Is it aobut your project of docuumentation?
2017-02-07T15:01:29Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550496/47967114/
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2017-02-07T15:01:58Z paule32: phoe__: yes
2017-02-07T15:02:33Z paule32: so, when the input is "what A" then print out "is a letter" e.g.
2017-02-07T15:02:34Z phoe__: KZiemian: not really, there are a few different leitmotifs going on here. varjag discussing his video decoder, paule32 speaking about his research, and me doing little bit of CLUS stuff.
2017-02-07T15:03:19Z phoe__: paule32:
2017-02-07T15:03:20Z phoe__: clhs describe
2017-02-07T15:03:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2017-02-07T15:03:24Z phoe__: clhs describe-object
2017-02-07T15:03:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_desc_1.htm
2017-02-07T15:03:38Z phoe__: Perhaps you could utilize this functionality Lisp already has when describing objects.
2017-02-07T15:04:06Z paule32: thank you, i'll a look
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2017-02-07T15:04:37Z KZiemian: hard discusions
2017-02-07T15:04:49Z KZiemian: parenthesis flying everwhere
2017-02-07T15:05:13Z phoe__ flings a ( at KZiemian 
2017-02-07T15:05:20Z phoe__: EAT THAT
2017-02-07T15:05:26Z antoszka: and that: )
2017-02-07T15:05:34Z shaftoe: elegant weapons
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2017-02-07T15:05:38Z shaftoe: for a civilized age
2017-02-07T15:05:42Z antoszka: yep
2017-02-07T15:05:44Z phoe__ watches the ( and the ) combine in mid-air into a NIL
2017-02-07T15:05:52Z phoe__: antoszka: you nullified my attack :<
2017-02-07T15:06:16Z antoszka: You would have crashed the poor creature otherwise.
2017-02-07T15:06:58Z phoe__: KZiemian: do you have an available debugger on yourself?
2017-02-07T15:07:16Z KZiemian: phoe__: I don't understand?
2017-02-07T15:07:50Z phoe__: KZiemian: if I triggered a READER-ERROR on you right now, would you crash, would you handle it or would you enter the debugger?
2017-02-07T15:08:01Z phoe__: (geez, this is getting so #lispcafe)
2017-02-07T15:08:39Z KZiemian: phoe__: I would crash. And after that look at #lispcafe
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2017-02-07T15:10:14Z phoe__: antoszka: okay, fine.
2017-02-07T15:14:26Z paule32: (setq Buchstabe-A (make-structBuchstabe :symbol "a" :symbolIS 'letter))
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2017-02-07T15:14:52Z varjag: how do i make a clx window non-resizable?
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2017-02-07T15:15:04Z paule32: how extract -A from Buchstabe
2017-02-07T15:15:27Z paule32: so, i can do e.g. "read" what is buchstabe a"
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2017-02-07T15:15:44Z paule32: so, i can do e.g. "read" what is buchstabe d"
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2017-02-07T15:15:58Z beach: paule32: You really need to read a book on Common Lisp before attempting something like this.
2017-02-07T15:18:18Z ogamita: paule32: PAIP might be a good idea: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp
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2017-02-07T15:18:48Z antoszka: paule32: I second that, it's one of the best CL textbooks (though not a very current AI book anymore, but that does not matter much).
2017-02-07T15:19:32Z paule32: i have some old books, too and outdated
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2017-02-07T15:19:52Z antoszka: paule32: Also, as a quick mental summary of what's happening in the reader and with symbols I highly recommend this short paper: www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf
2017-02-07T15:20:04Z paule32: but they cover more concepts and little bit code for prolog
2017-02-07T15:20:08Z antoszka: paule32: don't be put off by the name, it's *really* enlightening :)
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2017-02-07T15:20:21Z rumbler31: Xach: I seem to not have ever needed uiop, it isn't currently installed in my local distribution, but after I made a bundle, uiop was included and looks like its being pulled in by at least cffi, I think.  when I go to update my local dist it says that its up to date, but clearly I was relying on the same set of projects prior to making the bundle...
2017-02-07T15:20:46Z shka: paule32: as we said, PCL is good and mostly free online
2017-02-07T15:21:08Z Xach: rumbler31: uiop is also part of asdf.
2017-02-07T15:21:18Z rumbler31: oh...
2017-02-07T15:21:40Z ogamita: paule32: in lisp, books never get outdated.
2017-02-07T15:21:42Z phoe__: oh gosh, spefification pages like FLET/LABELS/MACROLET really require a lot of concentration
2017-02-07T15:21:49Z phoe__: ogamita: disagreed.
2017-02-07T15:22:03Z ogamita: paule32: have a look at: http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html
2017-02-07T15:22:08Z ogamita: phoe__: ^
2017-02-07T15:22:28Z phoe__: I found a single book referenced in the spec that is more or less outdated now.
2017-02-07T15:22:38Z paule32: thank you
2017-02-07T15:23:00Z phoe__: Something about speeds of implementations that are so old that I couldn't recognize any of them.
2017-02-07T15:23:20Z ogamita: Now, there are more modern ways to write that code, of course.  Nonetheless, if you find a stack of punchcards, you can still use them!
2017-02-07T15:23:24Z phoe__: Would probably be useful for implementors nowadays, and that's about it.
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2017-02-07T15:25:03Z phoe__: anyway
2017-02-07T15:25:06Z phoe__: the FLET page tired me out
2017-02-07T15:25:09Z phoe__ requests moral support
2017-02-07T15:25:27Z phoe__: the Flow chapter is really huge compared to previous ones
2017-02-07T15:27:33Z shka: phoe__: some people dream of success…
2017-02-07T15:27:38Z rumbler31: xach: so uiop is called out as a dependency for cffi.  when I ql cffi in my dist, uiop is not pulled in.  so I guess my dist is in an inconsistent state?
2017-02-07T15:27:50Z shka: phoe__: you should get to the point where everyone else would quit…
2017-02-07T15:28:10Z phoe__: shka: I'm dreaming of cons trees and unspecified behaviours
2017-02-07T15:28:28Z rumbler31: phoe__: whats the hangup?
2017-02-07T15:28:58Z phoe__: rumbler31: just being tired after these particularly tough few pages of the spec
2017-02-07T15:29:08Z phoe__: molochs like
2017-02-07T15:29:09Z phoe__: clhs flet
2017-02-07T15:29:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2017-02-07T15:29:11Z rumbler31: what are you diving into the spec that hard for?
2017-02-07T15:29:25Z phoe__: rumbler31: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-07T15:29:41Z phoe__: rumbler31: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/234693935216197634/278171719896924162/clus.pdf
2017-02-07T15:30:23Z rumbler31: i see
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2017-02-07T15:35:06Z rumbler31: Xach: after uninstalling cffi, this is what I get. http://paste.lisp.org/display/338503
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2017-02-07T15:39:28Z rumbler31: so it looks like ql recognizes that uiop is a dependency, but doesn't detect that its missing
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2017-02-07T15:41:28Z Xach: rumbler31: Is this part of a bigger problem?
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2017-02-07T15:43:29Z rumbler31: when I made a bundle and compiled my code against it, uiop threw a warning that i'm trying to hunt down.  Then I discovered that uiop made it into the bundle but doesn't exist in the original dist.  now I suspect that ccl loaded asdf from its local folder, so when I later do things that end up looking for uiop, those checks are satisfied.  but if ql wants to make a bundle where uiop is called out as a dependenc
2017-02-07T15:43:29Z rumbler31: y then it looks like the ql version is used
2017-02-07T15:44:18Z Xach: I'm not sure which part is "things are not as i expect and it makes me curious" and which is "this is a problem that stops things from working"
2017-02-07T15:45:44Z rumbler31: the part where uiop exists in the bundle but not in my dist was what I didn't expect.  I just put 2 and 2 together about ccl's version of asdf having a defpackage form in it for uiop, so I guess that's why when I quickload packages that depend on uiop, a new one isn't downloaded, but when ql makes a bundle, it doesn't see uiop as an installed package and puts it in the bundle
2017-02-07T15:46:31Z rumbler31: at this point, I was trying to figure out how to fix the uiop error, but that is different.  and after finding this, I don't think there is anything quicklisp can do about this situation
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2017-02-07T16:42:01Z contrapunctus: o/
2017-02-07T16:42:13Z beach: Hello contrapunctus.
2017-02-07T16:42:22Z contrapunctus: hey, beach
2017-02-07T16:42:31Z phoe__: Hey contrapunctus
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2017-02-07T16:45:04Z contrapunctus: I'd like to make a CL shell script which can be running on another system with as few steps as possible, e.g. if I wrote it in Guile, one just installs Guile and runs the script...anything similar in CL?
2017-02-07T16:46:15Z billstclair: Swank makes a remote lisp available from Emacs, but I don’t know if there’s a CL client for it.
2017-02-07T16:46:25Z Xach: contrapunctus: no.
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2017-02-07T16:47:06Z sjl: is there something like (trace foo) that will break into the debugger when foo is called instead of just dumping the call/return info?
2017-02-07T16:47:19Z billstclair: I haven’t played with Gail Zacharias’es Swank-like remote lisp for Clozure CL, but it’s CCL only.
2017-02-07T16:47:30Z billstclair: (trace (foo :before :break))
2017-02-07T16:48:06Z billstclair: sjl
2017-02-07T16:48:08Z sjl: ah right, sbcl adds :break
2017-02-07T16:48:10Z sjl: perfect, thanks
2017-02-07T16:48:28Z billstclair: That’s in CCL. Don’t know if the syntax is identical in SBCL
2017-02-07T16:49:22Z contrapunctus: Xach: ow :\ okay.
2017-02-07T16:50:08Z Xach: contrapunctus: Well, maybe that's a bit too pessimistic. There are a lot of implementations. If you pick one, you can get something like that.
2017-02-07T16:50:13Z sjl: billstclair: slightly different but I figured it out
2017-02-07T16:50:23Z Xach: contrapunctus: there is nothing short and generic that works on "CL", but you could do something in SBCL or CLISP or CCL.
2017-02-07T16:50:46Z sjl: huh, apparently sb-cga disables floating-point traps and just never reenables them
2017-02-07T16:50:48Z sjl: welp
2017-02-07T16:51:05Z phoe__: contrapunctus: pick an implementation. CLISP behaves well enough as a scripting CL.
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2017-02-07T16:51:42Z phoe__: $ clisp -c foo.lisp
2017-02-07T16:52:24Z phoe__: this makes me think that we need a frontend for the various Common Lisp implementations that takes care of this.
2017-02-07T16:52:32Z contrapunctus: or maybe I could just forgo the script and make it an ECL standalone executable, for maximum ease of installation?
2017-02-07T16:53:12Z contrapunctus: phoe__: there's Roswell but that's an extra step - install a Lisp implementation, and then Roswell.
2017-02-07T16:53:25Z phoe__: contrapunctus: oh right, Roswell.
2017-02-07T16:53:33Z phoe__: contrapunctus: well, Guile is a Scheme implementation.
2017-02-07T16:53:47Z phoe__: so you can just stick to a single CL implementation and get the same behaviour.
2017-02-07T16:54:10Z sjl: ...yep https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1519630
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2017-02-07T16:55:49Z rumbler31: contrapunctus: what is your end goal? any implementation allows you to bundle up what you're doing as a stand-alone binary that you can pass to someone else
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2017-02-07T16:56:57Z contrapunctus: rumbler31: maximum ease of installation. (maybe "script" wasn't the right way to ask about it, sorry)
2017-02-07T16:58:07Z rumbler31: well are you providing your code to end users, or are you..trying to give them a scripting interface? if its the former, use your implementation of choice to make a standalone binary and give that to them.  usually this has to be done on the target os
2017-02-07T16:58:27Z ogamita: contrapunctus: #!/usr/bin/clisp is the easiest.
2017-02-07T16:58:42Z rumbler31: assumes the user can install clisp there
2017-02-07T16:58:54Z ogamita: apt-get install clisp ; port install clisp
2017-02-07T16:59:21Z ogamita: Ok, #!/usr/local/bin/clisp, since on macOS he won't be able to touch /usr/bin
2017-02-07T17:00:08Z rumbler31: contrapunctus: how much control over their environments do you expect your users to have? that sort of drives the decisions
2017-02-07T17:00:24Z phoe__: aah
2017-02-07T17:00:30Z phoe__: it's actually amusing
2017-02-07T17:00:35Z phoe__: I open up yet another spec page
2017-02-07T17:00:42Z phoe__: "oh, that's the page where I fixed a bug in CCL"
2017-02-07T17:00:50Z phoe__: and suddenly I want to keep going
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2017-02-07T17:07:12Z ogamita: Indeed.  In the worst case, they only have their bash shell, so you would need to provide the objects of compiling clisp with the 8cc of https://github.com/shinh/elvm with the bash backend, so you could run your clisp script on a clisp implementation compiled to bash.
2017-02-07T17:08:13Z phoe__: \editornote{KMP: Does "same value" here mean eql or similar?} \reviewer{Moon: Probably depends on whether load time is compared to compile time, or two compiles.}
2017-02-07T17:08:17Z phoe__: aah, the sources are fun
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2017-02-07T17:13:34Z Xach: I love the remarks in the sources.
2017-02-07T17:13:46Z Xach: No curses :~(
2017-02-07T17:14:41Z beach: phoe__: Do you have any suggestion when it comes to handling annotations for my "Common Lisp version 3" project (which will be called something different to avoid confusion with existing projects)?
2017-02-07T17:14:46Z beach: phoe__: I don't think it would be a good idea to just add such annotations to the pages you are now editing.  But it would be nice if someone who wants to see these annotations could do so when looking at the relevant page.
2017-02-07T17:15:29Z beach should give that project a proper name.
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2017-02-07T17:18:10Z phoe__: beach: yes, I do.
2017-02-07T17:18:31Z phoe__: Right now, the CLUS documentation is organized in a directory/file structure.
2017-02-07T17:18:41Z phoe__: An example of this is CL:Functions:car .
2017-02-07T17:19:13Z phoe__: We could create a new namespace that maps to the parts of CL that you want to modify.
2017-02-07T17:19:22Z phoe__: For example, CL3:Functions:car .
2017-02-07T17:19:34Z phoe__: The main body of remarks would be visible from within the CL3 page.
2017-02-07T17:19:54Z phoe__: On the CL page for #'CAR, we could add a section which links to the appropriate CL3 page.
2017-02-07T17:20:39Z phoe__: beach: and about confusion, you could call your project "Specification Improvement for Common Lisp".
2017-02-07T17:20:45Z phoe__: I bet the acronym SICL isn't taken yet.
2017-02-07T17:20:54Z beach: Heh!
2017-02-07T17:21:25Z phoe__: But - that's my idea.
2017-02-07T17:21:46Z phoe__: Not too intrusive when it comes to modifying the original Common Lisp specification.
2017-02-07T17:21:57Z beach: I don't think people would appreciate a link from the ordinary CLUS page to unrelated information.
2017-02-07T17:22:43Z phoe__: > But it would be nice if someone who wants to see these annotations could do so when looking at the relevant page.
2017-02-07T17:22:51Z phoe__: Hm.
2017-02-07T17:22:54Z beach: Yes, it would.
2017-02-07T17:23:26Z beach: Ideally, there would be some kind of "switch" that turns on those annotations.  It would be off by default.
2017-02-07T17:23:29Z phoe__: So we will want to apply some kind of "toggle". If you are an usual mundane person, you see only the specification.
2017-02-07T17:23:32Z phoe__: Yes.
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2017-02-07T17:23:40Z beach: right.
2017-02-07T17:23:48Z phoe__: I will think about it.
2017-02-07T17:24:14Z phoe__: This will be tying us more closely to the utilized wiki engine and that's a decision I don't want to make too hastily.
2017-02-07T17:24:18Z beach: But my web knowledge is close to zero, so I don't know whether something like that would be possible.
2017-02-07T17:24:27Z phoe__: Yes, it would be possible.
2017-02-07T17:24:46Z beach: I fully understand your hesitation in that respect.
2017-02-07T17:24:51Z phoe__: I bet there already exists a DokuWiki plugin which implements functionality close to this.
2017-02-07T17:24:55Z beach: But this is not urgent, so we can think about it.
2017-02-07T17:25:00Z phoe__: Yes please.
2017-02-07T17:25:10Z phoe__: But I'll keep an eye on that.
2017-02-07T17:25:19Z beach: There is another kind of annotation I would like to see...
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2017-02-07T17:25:45Z beach: Take a page like the one for SVREF (it is not unique).
2017-02-07T17:25:49Z beach: clhs svref
2017-02-07T17:25:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_svref.htm
2017-02-07T17:26:02Z phoe__: I can see the SVREF page.
2017-02-07T17:26:22Z beach: Notice how it says Exceptional situations: None.
2017-02-07T17:26:51Z beach: However, also notice that it says simple-vector -- a simple vector.
2017-02-07T17:27:05Z beach: Now, what happens if simple-vector is not a simple vector?
2017-02-07T17:27:12Z phoe__: Haha.
2017-02-07T17:27:13Z beach: This is not explicitly mentioned.
2017-02-07T17:27:18Z beach: BUT....
2017-02-07T17:27:26Z ogamita: The problem with this specification is that with safety 0 it can avoid detecting the type error, and launch a missile instead.
2017-02-07T17:27:28Z phoe__: So basically, we want to elaborate on the *Exceptional situations* part.
2017-02-07T17:27:29Z beach: There is a general clause somewhere about that.
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2017-02-07T17:27:47Z beach: Let me try to find it.
2017-02-07T17:27:50Z Bike: clhs 1.4.4.3
2017-02-07T17:27:50Z specbot: The ``Arguments and Values'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddc.htm
2017-02-07T17:27:58Z ogamita: An improvement would be tha there's never no exceptional situation: all errors should always be detected and signaled.
2017-02-07T17:28:02Z beach: Thanks Bike!
2017-02-07T17:28:09Z phoe__: Do you want to link it literally everywhere it says *Exceptional situations*?
2017-02-07T17:28:12Z Bike: section one, the most boring and yet important
2017-02-07T17:28:16Z phoe__: Bike: you're scaring me.
2017-02-07T17:28:26Z Bike: hm?
2017-02-07T17:28:42Z Bike: i just remembered that the related "error terminology" is in the same subchapter
2017-02-07T17:28:43Z phoe__: You're quoting obscure parts of the specification at speeds unimaginable to me.
2017-02-07T17:29:00Z Bike: error terminology would be another good thing to link, it's like that RFC about what "MUST" means
2017-02-07T17:29:06Z beach: phoe__: So, I personally think that most people who read a page such as the one for SVREF will not remember the phrase in section 1.4.4.3.
2017-02-07T17:29:36Z phoe__: beach: Do you want to link it *everywhere*?
2017-02-07T17:30:16Z beach: Well, I would rather see an annotation like: Recall that the consequences are undefined if simple-vector is not a simple vector.
2017-02-07T17:30:27Z phoe__: s/Recall that t/T/
2017-02-07T17:30:56Z beach: sure.
2017-02-07T17:31:04Z beach: But you see what I mean, right?
2017-02-07T17:31:07Z phoe__: Yes yes!
2017-02-07T17:31:09Z phoe__: But then again - define "annotation" in this case.
2017-02-07T17:31:29Z phoe__: We could just edit all the pages and slap these sentences in the "Exceptional situations" area.
2017-02-07T17:32:04Z beach: But then you modify the specification.  Are you OK with that?
2017-02-07T17:32:18Z phoe__: Honestly? No, but not because it's modifying the specification.
2017-02-07T17:32:19Z Bike: i think there are some functions where it does say function should signal a type error if x is not a y, so it might be good to just uh... cover all it
2017-02-07T17:32:42Z phoe__: Because it would be repetitive as holy hell.
2017-02-07T17:32:54Z phoe__: Consequences are undefined if simple-vector is not a simple vector.
2017-02-07T17:33:01Z phoe__: Consequences are undefined if type is not a type specifier.
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2017-02-07T17:33:06Z phoe__: Consequences are undefined if number is not a number.
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2017-02-07T17:33:23Z beach: phoe__: I am with Bike here.  It is not the same for all functions.
2017-02-07T17:33:23Z phoe__: Consequences are undefined if instance is not an instance of standard-class.
2017-02-07T17:33:36Z phoe__: Yes - but I can imagine walls of text like this.
2017-02-07T17:33:44Z phoe__: And it kind of gives me the creeps.
2017-02-07T17:33:52Z beach: OK, never mind then.
2017-02-07T17:33:55Z phoe__: I mean.
2017-02-07T17:33:57Z beach: It was just a thought.
2017-02-07T17:34:08Z phoe__: I understand the idea Bike gave and I get your point too, beach.
2017-02-07T17:34:12Z Bike: you could have an expandable box like "the consequences are undefined if w is not a z. if x is not a y, function should signal a type error"
2017-02-07T17:34:33Z phoe__: Hm.
2017-02-07T17:34:42Z shka: uh?
2017-02-07T17:34:43Z phoe__: This sounds sane.
2017-02-07T17:34:59Z shka: Consequences are undefined if your computer is potato
2017-02-07T17:35:06Z phoe__: (makunbound shka)
2017-02-07T17:35:09Z phoe__: (gc :full t)
2017-02-07T17:35:16Z beach: What is an "expandable box"?
2017-02-07T17:35:36Z phoe__: beach: basically, an element of a webpage that is initially small, but when you click it, it becomes bigger.
2017-02-07T17:35:42Z phoe__: And shows its contents.
2017-02-07T17:35:52Z Bike: since it's 2017 and we have javascript now >_>
2017-02-07T17:35:59Z beach: So what would it look like when it is "small"?  No text?
2017-02-07T17:36:26Z Bike: just a little note like "Argument information [+]"
2017-02-07T17:36:43Z phoe__: But then again - why should it be expandable and not out in the open?
2017-02-07T17:36:56Z Bike: because it's a big ol wall of text like you were complaining about?
2017-02-07T17:37:13Z phoe__: But then again - we're editing a God damn specification and not an user's manual, walls of text can happen.
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2017-02-07T17:37:18Z phoe__: Fuck, this is not a simple issue.
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2017-02-07T17:37:33Z beach: I don't think repetition and precision are a problem in a specification.
2017-02-07T17:37:42Z phoe__: Yes, what beach said now.
2017-02-07T17:38:13Z beach: Anyway, I am just throwing out ideas.
2017-02-07T17:38:18Z phoe__: Hell, I can add this to my TODO list.
2017-02-07T17:38:51Z beach: Or, as I suggested, leave it to the community once your pages are in a stable state.
2017-02-07T17:38:54Z phoe__: I have different things to focus right now anyway - and by the time I'm done, we'll have all the material to discuss this kind of things upon.
2017-02-07T17:38:59Z phoe__: Haha, exactly.
2017-02-07T17:39:09Z Bike: if you're feeling extreme you could make this all computer understandable and have a couple ways to generate something human readable out of it
2017-02-07T17:39:35Z phoe__: I will want to make it human-readable first.
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2017-02-07T17:40:02Z phoe__: Once I have the markup ready and somewhat sane, I'll be willing to let Lisp understand its own specification.
2017-02-07T17:40:16Z dlowe: Bike: that was my project
2017-02-07T17:40:35Z phoe__: And let it attain ｔｒａｎｓｃｅｎｄｅｎｃｅ.
2017-02-07T17:40:43Z contrapunctus: phoe__: wait, is this anything regarding a new "edition" (in terms of presentation, not content) of the specification?
2017-02-07T17:40:51Z phoe__: yes, CLUS.
2017-02-07T17:41:01Z phoe__: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-07T17:41:12Z phoe__: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/234693935216197634/278171719896924162/clus.pdf
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2017-02-07T17:49:28Z contrapunctus: amazing, phoe__
2017-02-07T17:49:44Z phoe__: contrapunctus: <3
2017-02-07T17:49:50Z phoe__: not yet amazing in 100%.
2017-02-07T17:50:05Z phoe__: let me finish the rough parsing of the spec.
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2017-02-07T18:04:50Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550665/64906371/
2017-02-07T18:05:12Z paule32: how can i convert a string name to symbol?
2017-02-07T18:05:20Z shka: (intern string)
2017-02-07T18:05:23Z shka: isTypeNumber
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2017-02-07T18:05:32Z paule32: thx
2017-02-07T18:06:02Z shka: paule32: you were told to not use camel cases, didn't you?
2017-02-07T18:06:24Z paule32: you mean brackets ?
2017-02-07T18:06:29Z shka: no
2017-02-07T18:06:30Z shka: i mean
2017-02-07T18:06:35Z shka: camelCase
2017-02-07T18:07:09Z shka: paule32: you really don't want to read that book, do you?
2017-02-07T18:07:21Z shka: there is a reason why we use this-kind-of-case
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2017-02-07T18:07:35Z shka: why we write everything lowercase
2017-02-07T18:07:41Z paule32: i read it at the moment, and mix own code, for happy fun
2017-02-07T18:07:51Z shka: and why we use let instead of setq
2017-02-07T18:08:18Z paule32: let for variables, setq for states ?
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2017-02-07T18:10:12Z paule32: i came from pascal, where  FunctionNameOfMeaning - and i came from c/c++ where_functions_convention_is_so
2017-02-07T18:10:38Z paule32: i am new to lisp, i work on since few days
2017-02-07T18:10:57Z paule32: so don't worry that I mix the convention
2017-02-07T18:11:26Z paule32: I will try to understand the english descriptions/manuals, but my english is very poor
2017-02-07T18:12:02Z Xach: let is for introducing a variable binding, setf is for changing a binding
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2017-02-07T18:12:43Z paule32: and setq ?
2017-02-07T18:12:58Z shka: paule32: setq is something that you should not use directly
2017-02-07T18:13:04Z shka: use setf instead
2017-02-07T18:14:32Z paule32: ok, I am a little bit confused with the common lisp and the different dialekts, that can be found per google
2017-02-07T18:15:03Z shka: paule32: that's why we pointed you to some very tried and true books
2017-02-07T18:15:06Z paule32: ok, let me some minutes, my girlfriend is gone to clean the room with me
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2017-02-07T18:51:18Z shrdlu68: Hello world! Haven't been here in a while.
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2017-02-07T18:56:29Z phoe: shrdlu68: hey!@
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2017-02-07T19:06:27Z contrapunctus: Is it just me or is this page blank? https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/ch27s02.html
2017-02-07T19:06:42Z phoe: contrapunctus: very blank.
2017-02-07T19:06:53Z contrapunctus: foo :\
2017-02-07T19:07:01Z phoe: you could poke the maintainer about it perhaps.
2017-02-07T19:07:17Z phoe: jackdaniel: ^
2017-02-07T19:07:20Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: ping?
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2017-02-07T19:11:31Z phoe: he'll respond in due time, don't worry.
2017-02-07T19:11:55Z contrapunctus: aye, I know :)
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2017-02-07T19:16:05Z phoe: Question:
2017-02-07T19:16:07Z phoe: clhs progv
2017-02-07T19:16:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progv.htm
2017-02-07T19:16:20Z phoe: "Assuming *x* is not globally special"
2017-02-07T19:16:33Z phoe: Doesn't DEFPARAMETER proclaim *X* as globally special?
2017-02-07T19:16:38Z phoe: Or am I mixing things up here?
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2017-02-07T19:18:09Z Xach: phoe: there is no defparameter in the example
2017-02-07T19:18:26Z Xach: phoe: that is why it works
2017-02-07T19:18:35Z Xach: if there was a defparameter, it would not work.
2017-02-07T19:18:44Z phoe: Oh wait, right.
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2017-02-07T19:18:51Z phoe: I mixed things up.
2017-02-07T19:18:54Z shka: wow
2017-02-07T19:18:56Z shka: progv
2017-02-07T19:19:03Z shka: never heard of this
2017-02-07T19:19:12Z Xach: progv is useful from time to time
2017-02-07T19:19:18Z phoe: shka: http://readevalprint.tumblr.com/post/145348323128/all-you-need-is-progv
2017-02-07T19:19:47Z phoe: Xach: but does this example make sense nowadays? Toplevel SETQ is frowned upon by modern implementations.
2017-02-07T19:20:12Z Xach: phoe: there is no toplevel setq either.
2017-02-07T19:20:28Z shka: so this makes new bindings to special variable in not top-level?
2017-02-07T19:20:29Z phoe: Xach: "(setq *x* 1) =>  1"
2017-02-07T19:20:40Z phoe: I can see one right in the first line of the examples
2017-02-07T19:20:55Z Xach: Oh, sorry, I was thinking only of the second example.
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2017-02-07T19:21:04Z phoe: Aren't they one and the same example?
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2017-02-07T19:21:26Z Xach: The second one can stand on its own.
2017-02-07T19:21:39Z Xach: Yes, setq in examples is no longer a good idea.
2017-02-07T19:21:58Z shka: phoe: thanks for link
2017-02-07T19:22:11Z Xach: I don't know if that is meant to be a single example, but if it is, it could be split up without affecting the second part.
2017-02-07T19:22:50Z phoe: Xach: actually, it works as a single example.
2017-02-07T19:22:57Z phoe: Question - is this a good example?
2017-02-07T19:23:11Z phoe: I ask mostly mostly because of the toplevel setq.
2017-02-07T19:23:18Z phoe: s/mostly //
2017-02-07T19:23:19Z Xach: the toplevel setq is not good.
2017-02-07T19:23:42Z phoe: But then again, we must not use defvar or defparameter here.
2017-02-07T19:23:52Z phoe: Because they make vars special.
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2017-02-07T19:24:06Z Xach: that is why i keep mentioning the separability of the second part. but you could also separate it and use a non-earmuff variable, too.
2017-02-07T19:24:43Z phoe: The second part is fun, no problem.
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2017-02-07T19:24:59Z phoe: But the first part will nonetheless require a setq or a different construct.
2017-02-07T19:26:42Z Baggers: In the ftype declaration (ftype (function (&rest single-float) bar) foo) is the (&rest single-float) portion legal CL. SBCL accepts it but I wasnt sure if that was only for cltl2 support
2017-02-07T19:27:09Z Baggers: (I couldnt find the place in clhs that said if it was legal)
2017-02-07T19:28:30Z varjag: http://blog.funcall.org/lisp/2017/02/07/announcing-cl-video/
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2017-02-07T19:28:37Z phoe: varjag: redditing it now
2017-02-07T19:28:40Z varjag: yay
2017-02-07T19:29:09Z phoe: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/5sniky/announcing_clvideo/
2017-02-07T19:29:12Z phoe: upvotes galore
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2017-02-07T19:30:29Z PuercoPop: varjag: Nitpick, isn't AVI a container instead of a codec? (Commonly containing mpeg)
2017-02-07T19:30:42Z phoe: No, seriously. How can I reproduce the first part of the PROGV example without a SETQ at toplevel?
2017-02-07T19:30:43Z PuercoPop: well nitpick or learning time ^_^
2017-02-07T19:30:47Z phoe: I'm failing with LET so far.
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2017-02-07T19:31:25Z PuercoPop: phoe: let + declare special?
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2017-02-07T19:32:35Z phoe: PuercoPop: thanks.
2017-02-07T19:32:49Z PuercoPop: phoe: the second example doesn't work with that
2017-02-07T19:33:17Z PuercoPop: with let + declare special that is
2017-02-07T19:33:27Z phoe: PuercoPop: but the first part will.
2017-02-07T19:33:34Z varjag: PuercoPop: right, just sloppy wording
2017-02-07T19:33:42Z phoe: And I can avoid the toplevel setq this way.
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2017-02-07T19:38:30Z PuercoPop: varjag: anyhow best of luck with cl-video. The idea is for it to run on Mezzano right?
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2017-02-07T19:40:25Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: this page is just blank
2017-02-07T19:40:37Z jackdaniel: i.e not documented yet
2017-02-07T19:41:20Z varjag: PuercoPop: that too, although it'll be a hog there
2017-02-07T19:43:09Z varjag: possibly in machine vision applications too
2017-02-07T19:43:35Z varjag: wonder what it'll take for a clim video player
2017-02-07T19:46:19Z PuercoPop: If you want it to run faster you can use SBCL's SIMD support and it may help as feedback to propose an API for a contrib
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2017-02-07T19:48:13Z phoe: I am editing the page for SETQ.
2017-02-07T19:48:24Z phoe: What should be mentioned there about toplevel SETQ?
2017-02-07T19:48:28Z varjag: PuercoPop: last time i looked it seemed incomplete
2017-02-07T19:48:32Z varjag: but it's been a long time
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2017-02-07T19:48:55Z varjag: also started wondering about opencl support
2017-02-07T19:49:01Z paule32: hello, I'll be back :)
2017-02-07T19:49:04Z paule32: (write (type-of '(mashup-symbol (code-char letter-count))))
2017-02-07T19:49:11Z varjag: problem is, right now cl-jpeg has zero dependencies
2017-02-07T19:49:22Z varjag: it's relatively clean ansi common lisp
2017-02-07T19:49:24Z paule32: give ne cons
2017-02-07T19:49:31Z paule32: me
2017-02-07T19:49:49Z varjag: if i start adding platform specific stuff, am afraid to get bogged down by ffi
2017-02-07T19:49:54Z paule32: can be cons synbok ?
2017-02-07T19:50:09Z paule32: oh man
2017-02-07T19:50:14Z paule32: can be cons symbol ?
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2017-02-07T19:50:43Z Xach: paule32: no
2017-02-07T19:51:20Z paule32: and can't bew convert?
2017-02-07T19:51:28Z paule32: be
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2017-02-07T19:53:29Z shka: paule32: how that would work?
2017-02-07T19:54:41Z paule32: i reduce code size, i did "loop"
2017-02-07T19:54:43Z paule32: (setq letsgo (mashup-symbol letter '- (code-char letter-count)))
2017-02-07T19:54:55Z shka: grrr
2017-02-07T19:54:57Z paule32: that give me:  LETTER-A
2017-02-07T19:55:00Z paule32: that give me:  LETTER-Z
2017-02-07T19:55:37Z paule32: i type check the result with type-of, and get CONS
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2017-02-07T19:56:23Z paule32: now, i would like convert 1. to string, get A from LETTER-
2017-02-07T19:56:55Z pjb: (prin1-to-string 1.) #| --> "1" |#
2017-02-07T19:57:36Z pjb: (defun get-a-from-letter- (x) (if (eql x 'letter-) 'a)) (mapcar 'get-a-from-letter- '(letter- foo)) #| --> (a nil) |#
2017-02-07T19:58:16Z paule32: thx
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2017-02-07T20:57:06Z ferada: hi all, what's the canonical/best way to build a shared library from a C source in ASDF? via cffi-toolchain and custom methods?
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2017-02-07T21:13:08Z lisper: hey all
2017-02-07T21:13:08Z minion: lisper, memo from beach: The mechanism you are describing (inner functions) seems like a less powerful and less flexible mechanism than generic functions.  In addition to allowing what you want (by passing an object as one of the arguments to the function you want), it also allows for auxiliary methods, subclassing, etc.
2017-02-07T21:13:46Z lisper: is there a special operator or something like that to access the last evaluated expression?
2017-02-07T21:14:35Z lisper: basically a "what's on top of the stack" function/operator
2017-02-07T21:14:45Z lisper: (not repl)
2017-02-07T21:18:29Z dlowe: nope.
2017-02-07T21:18:42Z lisper: picolisp has it with @ apparently
2017-02-07T21:19:00Z dlowe: forth has it with everything
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2017-02-07T21:19:03Z lisper: haha
2017-02-07T21:19:19Z lisper: forth is concatenative, right?
2017-02-07T21:19:24Z dlowe: but this isn't a forth channel either
2017-02-07T21:19:31Z lisper: dat tru
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2017-02-07T21:44:30Z paule32: (cond ((eq (type-of letsgo) 'SYMBOL))    (write (type-of letsgo)) )
2017-02-07T21:44:52Z paule32: why type-of is not SYMBOL  -> see write
2017-02-07T21:45:18Z paule32: when (write (type-of letsgo)) give me SYMBOL
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2017-02-07T21:47:45Z phoe: paule32: you *SHOULD* read and work through some books, most probably Practical Common Lisp. I cannot effectively help you if you don't do your part of the work.
2017-02-07T21:49:17Z paule32: ok
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2017-02-07T21:49:42Z paule32: it is late here, may be i should go sleep
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2017-02-07T21:50:01Z prxq: paule32: 'a gentle introduction to symbolic computation' might be helpful too
2017-02-07T21:50:34Z paule32: thx
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2017-02-07T21:53:23Z phoe: Mayhaps a bit slowly now - but CLUS is progressing.
2017-02-07T21:53:27Z paule32: phoe: i did it done, EQL is my friend
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2017-02-07T21:53:59Z phoe: paule32: but COND is not, judging by the code you posted.
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2017-02-07T21:54:22Z paule32: (cond ((eql (type-of letsgo) 'SYMBOL)    (write (type-of letsgo)))  )
2017-02-07T21:54:41Z phoe: A little bit better.
2017-02-07T21:57:50Z phoe: Woah!
2017-02-07T21:57:53Z phoe: TIL about #'COMPLEMENT!
2017-02-07T21:58:19Z paule32: i found lisp very practical, so practical, that the language is older than others, and made from experts, and computer pioniers - people which must hard work to get result of limited resources of it field. those peoples, yes i tiers in eyes
2017-02-07T21:58:41Z phoe: I thought that Common Lisp did not have such a function.
2017-02-07T21:58:46Z paule32: and the cool thing is, lisp can evaluate his self
2017-02-07T21:58:57Z phoe: Holy hell, reading the spec page after page makes me a better lisper.
2017-02-07T21:59:18Z paule32: wut?
2017-02-07T21:59:23Z paule32: TIL ?
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2017-02-07T22:02:35Z phoe: TIL ≡ Today I Learned
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2017-02-07T22:06:50Z phoe: Night, #parens
2017-02-07T22:08:27Z Xach: Ha! I thought my PGP signature verification was broken, but it was actually my signature file.
2017-02-07T22:08:45Z Xach must update and verify all signatures on beta.quicklisp.org
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2017-02-07T22:10:14Z Xach: It has taken a long time, and it is not done yet, but I'm pretty excited about the verification updates for quicklisp
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2017-02-07T22:38:58Z pjb: paule32: What WRITE writes depends on all the various *print-…* variables. Since you didn't give explicit keyword parameters, you cannot trust its output.
2017-02-07T22:39:17Z pjb: paule32: use PRINT or PRIN1 instead!
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2017-02-07T22:40:16Z paule32: write print anything, either symbol, string, list, type-of ...
2017-02-07T22:40:20Z paule32: number
2017-02-07T22:40:36Z paule32: where print return string
2017-02-07T22:40:49Z paule32: string is a vector
2017-02-07T22:40:57Z paule32: vector of chars
2017-02-07T22:41:12Z paule32: vectors a one dimensional array(s)
2017-02-07T22:41:44Z paule32: so string is a array of characters
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2017-02-07T22:42:36Z paule32: the special of write is, that stream buffer without explicit "\n - new line"
2017-02-07T22:42:56Z paule32: the buffer (= string) is write continous
2017-02-07T22:43:06Z pjb: Well, I've been using Common Lisp since 1996…  And I've been using PRINT even before that!
2017-02-07T22:43:22Z pjb: So tell me, what should I use?
2017-02-07T22:43:28Z paule32: this means, you/I have to flush the buffer with e.g. (terpri)
2017-02-07T22:43:51Z Baggers: Xach: always great to hear that quicklisp is progressing well
2017-02-07T22:44:15Z paule32: i think lisp was modified with the time
2017-02-07T22:44:24Z paule32: new functions where implemented
2017-02-07T22:44:29Z paule32: or extended
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2017-02-07T22:45:02Z pjb: paule32: furthermore, in the expression you shown us: (cond ((eq (type-of letsgo) 'SYMBOL))    (write (type-of letsgo)) )  write is not a function that's called;  it's a variable that's evaluated.  What's the value of your variable named WRITE?
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2017-02-07T22:46:07Z pjb: In the second one, (cond ((eql (type-of letsgo) 'SYMBOL)    (write (type-of letsgo)))  ) you print the type when it's SYMBOL.  You get SYMBOL.  So everything is fine.
2017-02-07T22:46:07Z paule32: pjb: you are an tester? :-)  don't bit me :-)
2017-02-07T22:46:40Z paule32: write is a lisp function
2017-02-07T22:46:55Z paule32: type-of, the same
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2017-02-07T22:47:09Z paule32: type-of get the type of a variable
2017-02-07T22:47:18Z paule32: here: letsgo
2017-02-07T22:47:26Z paule32: letsgo is a SYMBOL
2017-02-07T22:47:56Z paule32: so you can use EQ the two equatiantions
2017-02-07T22:48:25Z paule32: left hand: SYMBOL - right hand, same - SYMBOL
2017-02-07T22:48:38Z paule32: woops
2017-02-07T22:48:40Z paule32: sorry
2017-02-07T22:48:50Z paule32: i mean EQL is for list compare
2017-02-07T22:48:58Z paule32: EQ for numbers
2017-02-07T22:49:18Z pjb: paule32: (let ((*package* (find-package "KEYWORD")) (*print-readably* nil) (*print-escape* nil) (*print-case* :upcase))  (print :symbol) (write :symbol) (values))  #| :SYMBOL SYMBOL |#
2017-02-07T22:50:03Z pjb: paule32: EQ is for nothing, don't use it.
2017-02-07T22:50:17Z paule32: ?
2017-02-07T22:50:20Z paule32: :/
2017-02-07T22:50:21Z pjb: (you need to be black belt 3rd dan, before you can use CL:EQ).
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2017-02-07T22:51:09Z paule32: i don't
2017-02-07T22:51:22Z pjb: Use = for numbers.
2017-02-07T22:51:29Z paule32: i type it in editor, save to file and voila, it work
2017-02-07T22:51:33Z |3b|: EQL is the same as EQ but has meaningful results on more types (numbers and characters in particular)
2017-02-07T22:51:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: = for numbers, eq for symbols, equal for everything else
2017-02-07T22:51:52Z |3b|: EQ is meaningless on numbers
2017-02-07T22:52:03Z paule32: |3b|: no list's
2017-02-07T22:52:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: |3b|: Works on my machine. ;)
2017-02-07T22:52:12Z paule32: also EQL
2017-02-07T22:52:29Z pjb: (eql 1 1.0) #| --> nil |#
2017-02-07T22:52:34Z |3b|: Petit_Dejeuner: no it doesn't :p (unless you also specify a lisp implementation + version + specific code)
2017-02-07T22:52:40Z pjb: paule32: But you may want to mean that.
2017-02-07T22:52:57Z |3b|: and even then you are relying on coincidence, since the spec doesn't require it to work
2017-02-07T22:53:43Z paule32: EQL work perfectly for word list's that came from console input or other buffer stream
2017-02-07T22:54:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: |3b|: I'm trolling (I think you noticed.), but good on you for not letting anyone else get confused.
2017-02-07T22:54:27Z paule32: it is very cool of lisp, because you don't need learn all of the internal things (at beginning)
2017-02-07T22:54:36Z pjb: yes.
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2017-02-07T22:55:07Z paule32: so, lisp is huge in the sight if features
2017-02-07T22:55:44Z pjb: That's nothing.  Android has more than 3500 classes and more than 350,000 methods…
2017-02-07T22:55:47Z paule32: i think, it is so big, that many have lost in frameworks, instead the fundamentals
2017-02-07T22:55:56Z paule32: beach was right
2017-02-07T22:56:02Z paule32: read book ...
2017-02-07T22:56:26Z paule32: pjb: yes, that the problem
2017-02-07T22:56:40Z paule32: very slow this damm things
2017-02-07T22:57:44Z paule32: i have learn programming by old people, he said, begin from first thing, specialize, and extend your skill(s)
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2017-02-07T22:58:42Z paule32: this made me different from other peoples, because i get old running stuff and write my own (in context of gnu gcc c++)
2017-02-07T22:59:17Z paule32: and now, i saw lisp (ok, newbie) and the first steps are very cool
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2017-02-07T23:00:55Z paule32: each of you has an other view point of using functions ... you can give me hintsm, and tips, but i have to made my own decicion, so please don't worry if i confused with concepts
2017-02-07T23:01:40Z paule32: an respect to all here, I think you are guru genies here :-)
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2017-02-07T23:02:48Z |3b|: writing valid code seems more like a 'first thing' than 'extend' or 'specialize' :)
2017-02-07T23:06:23Z Fare: Are there good libraries to post on Usenet from CL ?
2017-02-07T23:06:42Z Fare: otherwise, I can try to write some emacs lisp code...
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2017-02-07T23:23:22Z paule32: i will show you my results from today, so you can work/see in progress what i do
2017-02-07T23:23:26Z paule32: look here:
2017-02-07T23:23:27Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550783/86509676/
2017-02-07T23:24:49Z |3b|: (cond (x t) (y t) (t nil)) is (or x y)
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2017-02-07T23:27:36Z pjb: paule32: when testing for type of arguments, you may consider using a generic function with methods, or typecase:  (etypecase str (stream (if (listen str) …)) (string (string-to-list (make-string-input-stream str))))
2017-02-07T23:28:05Z |3b|: and you should probably use TYPEP instead of (eq (type-of ...) 'some-type), (type-of 1) => BIT for example
2017-02-07T23:28:54Z pjb: paule32: I would advise to avoid toplevel code: put everything from qt:init to the end in a function named main, and call this function:    #-testing (main (getCmdLine))
2017-02-07T23:28:58Z |3b|: or  (type-of 2) => (INTEGER 0 4611686018427387903)
2017-02-07T23:29:21Z pjb: paule32: this way, you can (push :testing *features*) (load "yourscript") and (main '("test" "arguments")) in the REPL to test and debug it.
2017-02-07T23:29:52Z |3b|: but (typep 1 'integer) => t, (typep 2 'integer) t
2017-02-07T23:29:54Z paule32: pjb: yes, i learn, yet
2017-02-07T23:30:40Z pjb: paule32: (isTypeNumber 'integer) --> NIL ????
2017-02-07T23:30:44Z |3b|: and once you learn about local variables, stop calling SETF on variables that don't exist :)
2017-02-07T23:31:04Z pjb: paule32: (defun isTypeNumber (type) (subtypep type 'number)) !
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2017-02-07T23:31:19Z paule32: pjb: this is the file content of qt lib:  https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550785/65102431/
2017-02-07T23:31:48Z |3b|: pjb: i thought it was (defun isTypeNumber (number) (typep number 'number)) ?
2017-02-07T23:32:19Z pjb: Yes correct. From the function name I infered it was a type function, not a value function…
2017-02-07T23:32:38Z |3b|: yeah, could be named better as well
2017-02-07T23:32:38Z pjb: there's already numberp !
2017-02-07T23:32:48Z |3b|: that too :)
2017-02-07T23:32:58Z pjb: (values (numberp 1) (numberp 42.0)) #| --> t ; t |#
2017-02-07T23:33:44Z paule32: that are profi tips
2017-02-07T23:33:57Z paule32: for me voodoo programming ;-D
2017-02-07T23:35:03Z |3b|: though the implementation is (defun isTypeNumber (number) (typep number '(or bit (cons integer))))
2017-02-07T23:35:33Z pjb: Should we trust the implementation or the function name?  There's no docstring with the specification…
2017-02-07T23:35:34Z |3b|: well, with an extra error if it isn't a BIT or CONS
2017-02-07T23:36:05Z pjb: and the comment is useless.
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2017-02-07T23:36:40Z |3b|: ah, never mind, i read the code wrong
2017-02-07T23:36:58Z |3b|: it is just INTEGERP
2017-02-07T23:37:38Z |3b|: with an error if it isn't a complicated enough type
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2017-02-07T23:39:26Z paule32: my idea was, to check digits 0-9  but i saw 0 and 1 are bit 2-9 integer
2017-02-07T23:39:50Z paule32: so i type to check of bit and/or integer
2017-02-07T23:39:55Z pjb: (defun digitp (object) (typep object '(integer 0 9)))
2017-02-07T23:40:01Z paule32: ok, i read atm, there is bignum
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2017-02-08T00:47:03Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550800/14806148/
2017-02-08T00:47:12Z paule32: i get fail at line: 111
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2017-02-08T00:48:34Z |3b|: paule32: what did you expect to get?
2017-02-08T00:49:39Z |3b|: also, use of EVAL tends to be a sign you are doing something wrong, why (eval 'one-letter) instead of just one-letter?
2017-02-08T00:50:51Z |3b|: creating symbols manually is a bit odd too for that matter
2017-02-08T00:54:48Z paule32: in line 62 i would like to fill the struct
2017-02-08T00:55:35Z paule32: and then test if value(s) right set
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2017-02-08T00:55:46Z |3b|: line 62 just defines a struct type, it doesn't fill anything, line 104 created a struct of that type
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2017-02-08T00:56:00Z |3b|: line 111 tries to read a variable that doesn't exisst
2017-02-08T00:56:59Z |3b|: did you mean (struct-letter-symbolname one-struct)?
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2017-02-08T00:57:59Z paule32: yes, would like print the value of symbolname
2017-02-08T01:00:09Z paule32: thx
2017-02-08T01:00:14Z paule32: your tip works
2017-02-08T01:00:45Z paule32: oh my god, it would be very intresting to develop in lisp
2017-02-08T01:02:00Z paule32: can i use nested struct values?
2017-02-08T01:02:41Z paule32: so, i have "struct-symboltypes"  and ":symbolis"
2017-02-08T01:03:07Z paule32: symbolis points to struct-symboltypes item ?
2017-02-08T01:04:30Z shrdlu68: Ugh, need to finish up this TLS Lisp project, at least to the point where I can release it.
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2017-02-08T01:05:50Z shrdlu68: Got busy, but the client works so far with all the crypto schemes supported by ironclad.
2017-02-08T01:06:34Z shrdlu68: 'The server API works, up unti the certificate message.
2017-02-08T01:07:10Z shrdlu68: So I'm not far off from completing it.
2017-02-08T01:08:57Z |3b|: paule32: you can store structure instances in other structures if that's what you mean, can store a structure instance in itself for that matter if you want to
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2017-02-08T01:10:43Z |3b|: you can't store them in strings though, and :symbolis would be a keyword, which is defined to be a constant with itself as its value
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2017-02-08T01:15:02Z pjb: (defstruct point x y) (let ((s (prin1-to-string (make-point :x 42 :y 33)))) (read-from-string s)) #| --> #S(point :x 42 :y 33) ; 21 |#  works perfectly: you CAN store structures in strings!
2017-02-08T01:16:27Z jason_m: how do i set a value at macro-expansion time?  (specifically, i want to set cl-who:html-mode before any of the with-html-output macros are expanded).  I tried using a read-time evaluation with #. but that didn't do it.
2017-02-08T01:16:55Z |3b|: just set it, though keep in mind macros may be expanded at any time and multiple times
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2017-02-08T01:18:37Z |3b|: (in other words, you can't assume expansion of a macro implies evaluation of the results)
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2017-02-08T01:19:30Z pjb: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (setf cl-who:html-mode 'de-chez-nous))
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2017-02-08T01:20:19Z pjb: Well, assuming you compile-file. When you compile, macros must be expanded at compilation-time.
2017-02-08T01:21:13Z jason_m: pjb: right now i'm trying to compile and load the source file.  ideally the source file(s) would be asdf loadable.
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2017-02-08T01:21:25Z pjb: source-load-op
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2017-02-08T01:21:44Z pjb: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf cl-who:html-mode '?))
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2017-02-08T01:24:57Z jason_m: that doesn't seem to be doing the trick.  i'm C-c C-k'ing my source file.  I don't believe I need to, but I tried restarting the web server.  I'm still getting the default xhtml markup.
2017-02-08T01:25:47Z jason_m: but if i evaluate (cl-who:html-mode) in the repl, i do get :html5
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2017-02-08T01:30:44Z shrdlu68: jason_m: Could you check the value of *prologue*?
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2017-02-08T01:31:07Z jason_m: i must have done something out of order.  i just recompiled and loaded my files (i have some generic page macros in one file, and actual handlers in another).  and it seems to be doing the trick now.  i'll work on getting it loadable with asdf next to see if it works in a clean image.
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2017-02-08T01:38:12Z jason_m: the eval-when looks to have done the trick!  re-started my image and loaded the system, and we've got html5
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2017-02-08T03:19:59Z paule32: give it a fast and tiny solution, to set global defvar's ?
2017-02-08T03:20:01Z paule32: (defvar one-struct-letter-a nil)
2017-02-08T03:20:05Z paule32: (defvar one-struct-letter-b nil)
2017-02-08T03:20:12Z paule32: till
2017-02-08T03:20:20Z paule32: (defvar one-struct-letter-z nil)
2017-02-08T03:20:28Z paule32: is very ugly
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2017-02-08T03:21:08Z paule32: but without this static hard way, i can't (write one-struct-letter-z)
2017-02-08T03:21:35Z pillton: What are you trying to do?
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2017-02-08T03:22:54Z |3b| might say if the code is ugly, the concept might be ugly too :)
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2017-02-08T03:23:23Z |3b|: usually for something like that we would just use a single variable containing an array (or list, hash table, etc)
2017-02-08T03:24:38Z |3b|: for example it is much easier to look up the character #\z in a hash table than to find the right symbol
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2017-02-08T03:31:42Z paule32: (setq one-letter (code-char letter-count))
2017-02-08T03:31:58Z paule32: letter-count is a loop variable
2017-02-08T03:32:18Z paule32: so one-letter can be A-Z
2017-02-08T03:32:37Z paule32: (setq one-struct (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval 'one-letter)))
2017-02-08T03:33:07Z paule32: one-struct is now: one-struct-letter-A
2017-02-08T03:35:16Z paule32: (defvar (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval 'one-letter)) 1)
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2017-02-08T03:36:28Z paule32: DEFVAR: only symbols can be a variable
2017-02-08T03:36:53Z |3b|: right, defvar is a macro so it has special evaluation rules, in particular it doesn't evaluate the name of the variable
2017-02-08T03:38:26Z |3b|: and you still don't need to (EVAL 'ONE-LETTER) to get the value of ONE-LETTER
2017-02-08T03:39:18Z |3b|: since for the EVAL to work, the form would have to be evaluated, in which case the variable in the same place would be evaluated
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2017-02-08T03:39:43Z |3b|: and the cases where they would give different results, EVAL probably gives you the wrong one
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2017-02-08T03:44:58Z loke: |3b|: EVAL evaulates in a null nexical environment though, so (EVAL 'FOO) should be the same as (SYMBOL-VALUE 'FOO)
2017-02-08T03:45:22Z shaftoe: are there any libraries for packet sniffing, packet writing, raw sockets, etc? i see i can use something like iolib for creating my own packets
2017-02-08T03:45:58Z |3b|: loke: right, lexical variable is the case where it differs and you probably want the lexical value
2017-02-08T03:46:41Z |3b|: (and then SYMBOL-VALUE would be a better choice anyway)
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2017-02-08T03:49:56Z paule32:     (setq om (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (SYMBOL-VALUE 'one-letter)))
2017-02-08T03:49:57Z paule32:     (defvar om 1)
2017-02-08T03:49:57Z paule32:     (write om)
2017-02-08T03:50:22Z paule32: this will write ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A on screen
2017-02-08T03:50:40Z paule32: (in scope)
2017-02-08T03:51:01Z paule32: (write one-struct-letter-A)
2017-02-08T03:51:11Z paule32: this will fail
2017-02-08T03:52:19Z paule32: *** - EVAL: variable ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A has no value
2017-02-08T03:52:51Z paule32: (in global section)
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2017-02-08T03:56:42Z paule32: (write 'one-struct-letter-a)
2017-02-08T03:57:02Z paule32: write ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A
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2017-02-08T04:06:56Z akkad: can sbcl save lisp and die now combine cffi shared objects into delivered image?
2017-02-08T04:07:43Z shaftoe: i saw something on twitter about sbcl saving image with ffi static libs or something
2017-02-08T04:07:54Z shaftoe: maybe read it on /r/common_lisp
2017-02-08T04:09:49Z akkad: this one time on reddit
2017-02-08T04:10:56Z shaftoe: i thought it was band camp
2017-02-08T04:11:14Z shaftoe: involving a parentheses
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2017-02-08T04:12:28Z aeth: shaftoe: it was r/lisp: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/5sepb3/sbcl_cffi_to_dump_images_with_statically_linked_c/
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2017-02-08T04:14:33Z shaftoe: i dont get why there's two damn subreddits... it's kinda ironic
2017-02-08T04:14:36Z aeth: A reddit post that linked to a twitter post, nothing could be more reliable
2017-02-08T04:14:49Z aeth: shaftoe: probably similar to why there's a ##lisp and a #lisp
2017-02-08T04:14:50Z shaftoe: though it would be a little more ironic if it were scheme
2017-02-08T04:15:02Z aeth: shaftoe: except r/common_lisp is like #lisp and r/lisp is like ##lisp
2017-02-08T04:15:20Z shaftoe: wait, there's another # nobody told me about?
2017-02-08T04:15:30Z shaftoe: bastards
2017-02-08T04:15:48Z aeth: Everything even moderately controversial, like where to draw the line in the definition of "Lisp", will have disagreements, and that'll spawn several places to discuss
2017-02-08T04:16:11Z aeth: Also, politics. Every political ideology probably has two subreddits and two off-topic ##foo Freenode channels
2017-02-08T04:16:14Z aeth: At a minimum.
2017-02-08T04:16:32Z aeth: Politics, religion, and programming are the three most controversial subjects to talk about.
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2017-02-08T04:18:12Z pillton: I hate people that make large, sweeping generalisations.
2017-02-08T04:18:28Z akkad: vs small, and non sweeping, generalisations
2017-02-08T04:18:39Z shaftoe: i like targeted generalizations myself
2017-02-08T04:19:35Z paule32: but don't    (setq (mashup-symbol one-struct-letter '- (code-char letter-count)) (make-struct-Letter
2017-02-08T04:19:35Z paule32:         :symbolName (string one-letter)
2017-02-08T04:19:35Z paule32:         :symbolIS   'letter
2017-02-08T04:19:53Z aeth: pillton: Well, it is true that so, so many communities online are fractured into two or more discussion groups per medium. No, I'm not going to be scientific about it and collect data for IRC. I was joking when I compared programming to politics... slightly.
2017-02-08T04:20:04Z paule32: is it possible to create symbol ?
2017-02-08T04:22:15Z pillton: aeth: I was joking. The statement is a large, sweeping generalisation.
2017-02-08T04:22:21Z aeth: paule32: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
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2017-02-08T04:23:02Z aeth: pillton: I was joking in my reply to your reply. Notice how I didn't say that programming isn't religion.
2017-02-08T04:23:21Z pillton explodes.
2017-02-08T04:23:22Z aeth: There is one Common Lisp and everyone should use it.
2017-02-08T04:23:24Z akkad: does sbcl have an equivalent of funcall-async? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw70/LW/html/lw-912.htm
2017-02-08T04:24:35Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550845/65278571/
2017-02-08T04:24:39Z paule32: line 95
2017-02-08T04:24:42Z pillton: akkad: sb-thread:make-thread?
2017-02-08T04:25:07Z akkad: that's a good point
2017-02-08T04:26:12Z paule32: i get IS NOT SYMBOL
2017-02-08T04:26:59Z loke: paule32: Yes, there is MAKE-SYMBOL or INTERN.
2017-02-08T04:27:18Z paule32: make-symbol will not work, too
2017-02-08T04:27:53Z paule32: loke: see line 38
2017-02-08T04:27:58Z aeth: paule32: One thing I noticed is that you use setq a lot. The more common modern style is to use setf everywhere, in case you're not aware. https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml?showone=Assignment#Assignment
2017-02-08T04:28:21Z aeth: (If you are aware, this is probably like a lesser version of the tabs v spaces holy war and I'm sorry.)
2017-02-08T04:29:36Z paule32: i need global: one-struct-letter-A .. Z
2017-02-08T04:30:12Z paule32: the simpliest thing is, to define the 26 letters per hand
2017-02-08T04:30:23Z aeth: If you setq or setf multiple things, you don't need multiple set expressions, e.g. (setf foo 1\n bar 2\n baz 3) instead of (setf foo 1)\n(setf bar 2)\n(setf baz 3) (I am putting \n as a newline so I don't flood IRC)
2017-02-08T04:30:25Z paule32: but i find it ugly, that blows code
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2017-02-08T04:34:47Z aeth: paule32: string-to-list is built into the language as (coerce some-string 'list)
2017-02-08T04:34:55Z aeth: generally, any sequence (including strings) can be coerced into any other
2017-02-08T04:35:43Z aeth: that doesn't look like it's what your string-to-list does
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2017-02-08T04:38:51Z paule32: i think i have it:
2017-02-08T04:38:53Z paule32: (make-symbol (string (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval (code-char letter-count)))))
2017-02-08T04:39:18Z paule32: but i don't know if these made symbol is global
2017-02-08T04:39:32Z aeth: paule32: What exactly is the whole file trying to do?
2017-02-08T04:39:36Z aeth: (that you linked to)
2017-02-08T04:40:01Z paule32: ehm, source file?
2017-02-08T04:40:06Z paule32: qt?
2017-02-08T04:40:38Z paule32: simply a dummy package file with header only
2017-02-08T04:53:20Z aeth: paule32: I don't think you need the eval there
2017-02-08T04:53:26Z aeth: see if it still works without the eval
2017-02-08T04:53:57Z paule32:     (setf ss
2017-02-08T04:53:57Z paule32:       (make-symbol (string (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval (code-char letter-count)))))
2017-02-08T04:53:57Z paule32:     )
2017-02-08T04:54:23Z paule32: this will handle ss as ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A
2017-02-08T04:54:26Z aeth: I think eval only matters when you have some list like (eval '(+ 1 1))
2017-02-08T04:54:51Z paule32: but i don't know the backward thing
2017-02-08T04:54:59Z paule32: context setf
2017-02-08T04:58:08Z paule32: (make-symbol (string (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval (code-char letter-count)))))
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2017-02-08T04:58:15Z paule32: i can't do:
2017-02-08T04:58:30Z paule32: (defvar (make-symbol (string (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval (code-char letter-count))))) 1)
2017-02-08T04:58:54Z aeth: paule32: you want intern if you're going to use the symbol in the package
2017-02-08T04:59:03Z aeth: Common Lisp has packages and a namespace, there is no global
2017-02-08T04:59:08Z aeth: well, global global
2017-02-08T04:59:16Z aeth: even the built-ins are just from the package CL
2017-02-08T04:59:42Z aeth: (defpackage and in-package might be exceptions?)
2017-02-08T04:59:51Z paule32:     (defvar
2017-02-08T04:59:51Z paule32:       (intern (make-symbol (string (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter- (eval (code-char letter-count)))))) 1    )
2017-02-08T05:00:12Z paule32: DEFVAR only symbols can be variables
2017-02-08T05:00:13Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-08T05:00:19Z paule32: hi beach
2017-02-08T05:00:48Z aeth: paule32: when you're using defvar and defparameter, you should wrap the symbol in *s like (defvar *foo* 42)
2017-02-08T05:01:14Z aeth: I think that just means adding a '* to the beginning and the end of your mashup-symbol
2017-02-08T05:02:33Z aeth: I think it's a warning when you do not, although the compiler might not detect it if you generate the variable name in a complicated enough way
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2017-02-08T05:11:27Z aeth: Also, I'm sure the eval makes no difference there, try (eval (code-char 42)) and (code-char 42) in the REPL. They have the same result, the char #\*
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2017-02-08T05:16:06Z paule32:     (make-symbol
2017-02-08T05:16:07Z paule32:       (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter '- (code-char letter-count))     )
2017-02-08T05:16:21Z paule32: this produce ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A
2017-02-08T05:16:33Z paule32: but i get the message: is not a STRING
2017-02-08T05:17:18Z aeth: #\A is a character, not a string
2017-02-08T05:17:43Z aeth: (string #\A) => "A"
2017-02-08T05:18:39Z aeth: but according to your code earlier you pass it all into a (format nil "~{~a~}" objects) so that shouldn't make a difference, hmm
2017-02-08T05:18:47Z aeth: because that's a string, and it'll convert a character
2017-02-08T05:19:29Z aeth: paule32: is mashup-symbol still this? (intern (format nil "~{~a~}" objects))
2017-02-08T05:19:49Z aeth: don't use both intern and make-symbol, you use one or the other
2017-02-08T05:19:57Z paule32:     (make-symbol (string
2017-02-08T05:19:57Z paule32:       (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter '- (code-char letter-count))     ))
2017-02-08T05:20:05Z paule32: this does the job
2017-02-08T05:20:11Z paule32: (write one-struct-letter-a)
2017-02-08T05:20:23Z paule32: give me: symbol has no value
2017-02-08T05:20:45Z aeth: paule32: it does the job because you're making the symbol ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A, turning it into the string "ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A", and then making the symbol #:ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-A
2017-02-08T05:21:13Z aeth: (string 'HELLO-WORLD) apparently converts that symbol into a string, so you're doing the symbol conversion twice
2017-02-08T05:22:24Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_string.htm
2017-02-08T05:22:35Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm
2017-02-08T05:22:48Z aeth: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2017-02-08T05:23:34Z aeth: You can search the HyperSpec to see what functions do from several websites, including l1sp.org, e.g.: http://l1sp.org/search?q=make-symbol
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2017-02-08T05:28:00Z paule32: but, when i remove "string" the message comes: is not a string
2017-02-08T05:28:11Z aeth: right
2017-02-08T05:28:16Z beach: I think you should take this discussion to #lispnoobs.
2017-02-08T05:28:30Z beach: It is getting a bit repetitive for #lisp.
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2017-02-08T05:28:56Z aeth: paule32: the version that works is string -> symbol -> string -> symbol, the version that does not is string -> symbol -> symbol
2017-02-08T05:29:24Z aeth: Run some simple test cases of make-symbol and intern in the REPL to verify that the functions work as you think they do
2017-02-08T05:30:03Z aeth: beach: I think the channel is called #clnoobs
2017-02-08T05:30:07Z aeth: #lispnoobs does not seem to exist
2017-02-08T05:30:16Z paule32: please dont worry
2017-02-08T05:30:23Z paule32: i really new
2017-02-08T05:32:11Z aeth: paule32: what you should do is (1) look up the functions you don't understand in http://l1sp.org/html/ or http://lispdoc.com/ and then (2) run them directly in the REPL (read eval print loop) on very simple test cases like (intern "HI") to make sure you understand, and then (3) put them in your program
2017-02-08T05:32:28Z aeth: That way you'll run into fewer bugs
2017-02-08T05:32:33Z aeth: At least, in my experience.
2017-02-08T05:32:39Z beach: paule32: I don't worry.  But you are getting very irritating because you ask elementary question in a channel that has many participants who would like to discuss more advanced stuff.
2017-02-08T05:32:45Z beach: paule32: This channel is not meant for learning Common Lisp.  It is OK to ask a newbie question from time to time, but you are monopolizing the discussion with trivial stuff, and there is no sign that you are making any progress.
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2017-02-08T05:38:33Z aeth: Another site to search is: http://quickdocs.org/
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2017-02-08T05:39:34Z aeth: DuckDuckGo has !l1sp !lisp !clhs !cliki and !quickdocs built in, if you use DuckDuckGo. It'll just redirect you to those sites with the proper search. https://duckduckgo.com/
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2017-02-08T05:42:29Z aeth: paule32: The channel you should ask questions in is #clnoobs
2017-02-08T05:44:48Z paule32:     (setf x (string
2017-02-08T05:44:48Z paule32:       (mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter '- (code-char letter-count))     ))
2017-02-08T05:44:48Z paule32:     (setf *y* (make-symbol x))
2017-02-08T05:44:48Z paule32:     (setf *(mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter '- (code-char letter-count))* x)
2017-02-08T05:44:56Z paule32: this works fine
2017-02-08T05:45:04Z paule32: (write x)
2017-02-08T05:45:20Z paule32: give me: "ONE-STRUCT-LETTER-Z"
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2017-02-08T05:54:04Z paule32: but i can't make it variables global
2017-02-08T05:54:23Z paule32: i try (defvar *(mashup-symbol 'one-struct-letter '- (code-char letter-count))* x)
2017-02-08T05:54:54Z paule32: but get message that defvar can't be called with 4 arguments
2017-02-08T05:55:15Z paule32: the syntax is (defvar name optional-value)
2017-02-08T05:55:42Z paule32: better: *name*
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2017-02-08T05:58:31Z aeth: paule32: you want to (mashup-symbol '* ... '*), i.e. make the *s part of the symbol that you're feeding to defvar
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2017-02-08T06:20:47Z beach: paule32: Here is another problem.  I don't know what kind of programming you have done in the past, but you don't seem to understand that programming is mainly an act of communications between humans.  And, in fact, that is exactly what you are trying to do by showing code here.
2017-02-08T06:20:56Z beach: paule32: Now, the first rule of communication between humans, is that you respect the conventions of the group of humans you are trying to communicate with.  You have been told that in Common Lisp there is no whitespace (including newline) before a closing parenthesis and no whitespace after an opening parenthesis.  You have also been told not to use CamelCase.
2017-02-08T06:21:17Z beach: paule32: And you have been told to use lexical variables rather than global ones, which, by the way, is a general rule in any fairly modern programming language.
2017-02-08T06:21:32Z beach: paule32: And you have been told to use an editor that can indent your code, because Common Lisp programmers understand the structure of code by looking at indentation.  When the code is badly indented, the person reading your code will suspect it was indented manually, or using an editor that doesn't quite understand Common Lisp indentation.
2017-02-08T06:21:35Z beach: paule32: You then force that person to count parentheses, which is very impolite.  Instead of fixing those problems, you continue ignore the advice you are given, and to disrespect the participants of this channel who try to help you.
2017-02-08T06:22:55Z beach: paule32: Finally, please don't paste more than tiny code fragments in the channel itself.  Instead use paste.lisp.org/new and show the URL here.
2017-02-08T06:23:51Z beach: paule32: I will stop now, because I have no great hopes that you will read what I wrote, much less follow the advice I am trying to give.  Good luck with your programs.
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2017-02-08T06:35:35Z paule32: beach: sorry, i was bussy, i scroll back and read your sentences
2017-02-08T06:35:40Z paule32: you are right
2017-02-08T06:36:26Z paule32: i follow the most text, but i try out the code that you explain
2017-02-08T06:37:26Z paule32: please sorry if i don't react speedly, i have to understand/translate what you mean, ok, the most parts i can read and understand, but like i said, my english is poor
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2017-02-08T08:19:34Z paule32: how can i define a global instance in line: 135
2017-02-08T08:19:35Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550881/48654190/
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2017-02-08T08:20:13Z shka: paule32: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html
2017-02-08T08:20:31Z Bike: yes, please read PCL or something, this code style is ridiculous.
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2017-02-08T08:32:52Z varjag: re
2017-02-08T08:33:04Z beach: Hello varjag.
2017-02-08T08:34:32Z beach: Bike: It is "interesting" that paule32 did not take into account one single remark that I made before pasting essentially the same thing.  When I have even the faintest hope that a newbie could one day become a contributor, I don't mind helping out.  Unfortunately, paule32 does not fall into that category.
2017-02-08T08:38:09Z shaftoe: if i define an accessor for a class in a package, how can i use that accessor outside that package? (accessor class-instance) is showing as undefined function (accessor ...)
2017-02-08T08:38:21Z shka: shaftoe: export it
2017-02-08T08:38:27Z shaftoe: export the accessor?
2017-02-08T08:38:31Z shka: it is just (generic) function
2017-02-08T08:38:35Z shka: yes
2017-02-08T08:38:41Z beach: shaftoe: Export the name of the accessor.
2017-02-08T08:38:43Z shka: just export symbol from package
2017-02-08T08:38:45Z shaftoe: ok
2017-02-08T08:38:54Z shaftoe: if it's that simple i'm going to slap myself
2017-02-08T08:38:55Z beach: shaftoe: Functions are not exported.  Symbols are.
2017-02-08T08:38:58Z jackdaniel: and then (package-name:accessor-name instance)
2017-02-08T08:39:11Z shka: yup
2017-02-08T08:39:14Z shka: that simple
2017-02-08T08:39:16Z shka: ;-)
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2017-02-08T08:39:43Z shka: shaftoe: please, don't forget to record act of slapping yourself
2017-02-08T08:39:55Z shka: send record to us
2017-02-08T08:39:58Z jackdaniel: dribble is a right tool for a job
2017-02-08T08:40:02Z jackdaniel: :)
2017-02-08T08:40:03Z shka: for scientific reasons :D
2017-02-08T08:40:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-02-08T08:40:48Z shaftoe slaps himself with a wet trout
2017-02-08T08:41:09Z shka: damn
2017-02-08T08:41:13Z shka hoped for eel
2017-02-08T08:41:18Z shaftoe: i assumed accessors were automagically exported
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2017-02-08T08:41:27Z shaftoe: thanks folks
2017-02-08T08:41:34Z shka: no problem
2017-02-08T08:41:47Z jackdaniel: shaftoe: nothing is exported automatically, you have  to say which symbols are part of your interface
2017-02-08T08:42:07Z jackdaniel: having (:use ) clause is just a shorthand from manually importing all exported symbols
2017-02-08T08:42:19Z shka: http://eelslap.com/
2017-02-08T08:42:26Z shka: because we have no video
2017-02-08T08:42:32Z shka: this needs to be enough
2017-02-08T08:44:29Z shaftoe: i was :use-ing the package but hadn't exported the accessor
2017-02-08T08:44:48Z shka: yeah, i guess you exactly know what is going on here
2017-02-08T08:44:54Z shka: :-)
2017-02-08T08:46:28Z beach: shaftoe: It is usually a better idea to use explicit package prefixes, or to selectively import the symbols you want.  :USE-ing a package is trusting the author of that package too much.  If future versions of the package export mores symbols, your code may break as a result of symbol conflicts.
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2017-02-08T08:46:50Z beach: shaftoe: I only :USE package that are very stable, such as "COMMON-LISP".
2017-02-08T08:46:59Z shka: i agree with beach
2017-02-08T08:47:27Z shaftoe: these are my own packages
2017-02-08T08:47:28Z Bike quit (Quit: slep)
2017-02-08T08:47:36Z shaftoe: clearly they're very stable
2017-02-08T08:47:47Z shka: clearly :D
2017-02-08T08:48:01Z beach: shaftoe: It is also a very good idea to treat yourself (when you are the author of another package) as a person you don't know.
2017-02-08T08:48:21Z shaftoe: oh, and i'm using cl-json to magically transform json into objects, thanks to some advice from here the other day
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2017-02-08T08:49:06Z shka: well, i'am also using cl-json, just not :using
2017-02-08T08:49:52Z shka: i am :using alexandria common-lisp serapeum iterate
2017-02-08T08:50:08Z shka: because that's what i am using all the time
2017-02-08T08:50:13Z shaftoe: i like serapeum
2017-02-08T08:50:20Z shka: yeah, same here
2017-02-08T08:50:41Z shaftoe: dict @ defmethods
2017-02-08T08:50:47Z shaftoe: are a few of my fave
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2017-02-08T08:53:59Z shka: i like stuff adopted from clojure
2017-02-08T08:54:07Z shka: like (-> a b c)
2017-02-08T08:54:10Z shka: sorry
2017-02-08T08:54:15Z shka: (~> a b c)
2017-02-08T08:54:17Z shka: this way
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2017-02-08T08:56:15Z shka: there are also other useful macros
2017-02-08T08:56:25Z shka: like for instance defalias
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2017-02-08T08:59:11Z shaftoe: yeh the threading stuff is nice
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2017-02-08T09:13:35Z ogamita: paule32: you need to learn about data structures before trying to write any program.  You never set series of variables such as one-struct-letter-a … one-struct-letter-z.  Instead you may define ONE signle variable bound to a data structure where you can store the set of objects.
2017-02-08T09:13:57Z ogamita: paule32: here you could use either a vector, or a hash-table.
2017-02-08T09:14:58Z ogamita: paule32: (defvar *letters*  (make-array 26 :fill-pointer 0)) (vector-push (make-one-struct-letter :letter #\A) *letters*) …
2017-02-08T09:15:23Z ogamita: paule32: (defvar *letters*  (make-hash-table)) (setf (gethash #\A *letters*) (make-one-struct-letter :letter #\A)) …
2017-02-08T09:16:17Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550895/45354148/
2017-02-08T09:16:34Z ogamita: paule32: and then you can write (defun letter (ch) (aref *letters* (position ch "ABCDE…Z"))) or (defun letter (ch) (gethash ch *letters*))  and use (print (letter #\A)) ; don't use WRITE, use PRINT !
2017-02-08T09:16:42Z paule32: see line 105 and 70
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2017-02-08T09:17:38Z ogamita: Again, even with a macro, DO NOT define a series of  variables!  use DATA STRUCTURES!
2017-02-08T09:18:01Z paule32: yes, step by step
2017-02-08T09:18:12Z ogamita: paule32: and stop using WRITE. NEVER USE WRITE!
2017-02-08T09:18:21Z ogamita: You need at least a brown belt to use WRITE.
2017-02-08T09:18:46Z paule32: write print "text"
2017-02-08T09:18:51Z ogamita: paule32: you may use WRITE-LINE or WRITE-STRING, but it is simplier to just always use FORMAT.
2017-02-08T09:18:55Z ogamita: paule32: WRONG!
2017-02-08T09:18:56Z paule32: printc print  TEXT
2017-02-08T09:19:11Z ogamita: the behavior of WRITE depends on global variables!
2017-02-08T09:20:12Z ogamita: (let ((*print-escape* t)) (write "Hello World!")) #| "Hello World!" |#
2017-02-08T09:20:28Z ogamita: (let ((*print-escape* t)) (princ "Hello World!")) #| Hello World! |#
2017-02-08T09:20:52Z ogamita: So you should use PRINC to print messages.  or WRITE-LINE or WRITE-STRING would do too.
2017-02-08T09:21:17Z paule32: ok
2017-02-08T09:21:26Z Cymew uses PRINT for debug messages, FORMAT for all other text output
2017-02-08T09:21:27Z ogamita: paule32: also, you should define all your variables, either global dynamic variables with defvar or defparameter, or local variables with LET or lET*.
2017-02-08T09:21:56Z paule32: what is with structures?
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2017-02-08T09:22:09Z ogamita: paule32: (eq letter-count 90) always return NIL!
2017-02-08T09:22:10Z paule32: can i define it as global in functions
2017-02-08T09:22:22Z ogamita: paule32: use = for numbers!!!
2017-02-08T09:22:48Z ogamita: paule32: it's better to avoid global variables in general.  Pass parameters to functions.
2017-02-08T09:23:34Z Cymew: For style you might also use SETF instead of SETQ, and not spread out the closing parens on individual lines.
2017-02-08T09:24:07Z paule32: Cymew: atm it is better to read for me
2017-02-08T09:24:42Z paule32: for debuging per hand
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2017-02-08T09:25:11Z ogamita: paule32: don't you use emacs?
2017-02-08T09:25:13Z paule32: i missed the line numbers of errors generated from lisp
2017-02-08T09:25:22Z paule32: no
2017-02-08T09:25:27Z paule32: pluma
2017-02-08T09:25:29Z ogamita: Even vim is capable of matching parentheses: lisp programmers NEVER count parentheses!
2017-02-08T09:25:57Z paule32: it is a notepad like text editor for linux mint on gnome basis
2017-02-08T09:26:03Z ogamita: If pluma doesn't match the parentheses and doesn't indent your lisp code automatically, perhaps you should switch to emacs?
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2017-02-08T09:26:11Z paule32: the alternative to gedit
2017-02-08T09:26:18Z loke: paule32: You really want to be using Emacs.
2017-02-08T09:26:37Z ogamita: emacs is really simple, studying the tutorial only takes 1/2 hours.
2017-02-08T09:26:46Z Cymew: paule32: Just mentioning it. Experiences lispers will cringe as they see it.
2017-02-08T09:27:02Z paule32: ok, let me test it
2017-02-08T09:27:04Z ogamita: (what beach told you about writing for other programmers).
2017-02-08T09:27:34Z Cymew: But, it's a good effort to dive in and code! :)
2017-02-08T09:28:11Z ogamita: Well, paule32 seems to be serious about lisp programmer, so the sooner paule32 switchs to emacs, the better.
2017-02-08T09:28:25Z ogamita: s/programmer/programming/
2017-02-08T09:28:50Z paule32: huh
2017-02-08T09:29:00Z paule32: emacs comes with X server support
2017-02-08T09:29:07Z loke: paule32: It's really, REALLY, hard to program Lisp without Emacs.
2017-02-08T09:29:21Z paule32: with menus and mouse support
2017-02-08T09:29:26Z loke: paule32: It does if you want it.
2017-02-08T09:29:40Z ogamita: paule32: did you order PAIP already? https://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Artificial-Intelligence-Programming-Studies/dp/1558601910/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486546159&sr=8-1&keywords=paip
2017-02-08T09:30:04Z ogamita: paule32: if you're on macOS, get it from http://emacsformacosx.com/
2017-02-08T09:30:12Z paule32: i can't order with my money
2017-02-08T09:30:13Z shka: ogamita: can we agree that PCL is good and free to read online?
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2017-02-08T09:30:25Z ogamita: paule32: PCL is good and free to read online.
2017-02-08T09:30:30Z shka: thank you
2017-02-08T09:30:34Z shka: :-)
2017-02-08T09:30:39Z paule32: i happy that i have a old fast linux box
2017-02-08T09:30:45Z ogamita: shka: but paule32 wants to write AI programs in lisp, so PAIP is particularly indicated.
2017-02-08T09:30:57Z ogamita: And in general, PAIP has a nice CL reference section.
2017-02-08T09:31:06Z shka: sure it has
2017-02-08T09:31:11Z ogamita: paule32: good, then indeed, emacs on X is the best.
2017-02-08T09:31:14Z Cymew: PAIP sounds like something a bit further down the road.
2017-02-08T09:31:39Z paule32: how can i style format indent files?
2017-02-08T09:31:41Z ogamita: Cymew: really, try the CL intro & reference in PAIP, it's nice for newbies.
2017-02-08T09:31:45Z shka: yeah, i think PCL is probably best there is for CL introduction
2017-02-08T09:31:54Z myrkraverk: What is a simple way to count occurrences of <foo> in a string?
2017-02-08T09:31:59Z ogamita: paule32: emacs does it automatically, and notably with the paredit.el module.
2017-02-08T09:32:11Z shka: there are other options that can be better in specific cases
2017-02-08T09:32:30Z Cymew: ogamita: Maybe it is better for newbies than I remember. I don't own it myself, but it did look dense when I peeked at it qiuckly.
2017-02-08T09:32:32Z paule32: i load the file, and format is same as in raw text editor
2017-02-08T09:32:40Z shka: myrkraverk: regex?
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2017-02-08T09:33:17Z paule32: cah it be that line 1 contains beshe
2017-02-08T09:33:21Z ogamita: paule32: type C-x h C-M-\
2017-02-08T09:33:41Z ogamita: paule32: C-x h  selects the whole buffer,  C-M-\ indents the selected region.
2017-02-08T09:33:43Z myrkraverk: I've been looking at cl-ppcre, and I can divide the length from all-matches, maybe.
2017-02-08T09:33:52Z myrkraverk: I was wondering if there was something simpler.
2017-02-08T09:33:53Z ogamita: paule32: TAB will indent the current line.
2017-02-08T09:34:37Z ogamita: paule32: on the second line, after #!, put:   ;; -*- mode:lisp; coding:utf-8 -*-
2017-02-08T09:34:59Z ogamita: paule32: this way emacs will know it's a lisp file even without the .lisp extension (that should not be used for scripts starting with #!).
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2017-02-08T09:49:26Z 
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: ccl-logbot smokeink dan64- alandipert_ taij33n- gabiruh_ zeraceth swflint Tordek_ tephra_ pankracy_ cibs_ kattana_ Mandus__ Xach_ eagleflo_ malcom2073_ unbalanced roscoe_t` ryanbw` sebboh` dmiles jackc_ specbot FreeBirdLjj Tristam ebzzry phoe_ test1600 lxpz scymtym varjag stepnem flamebeard zooey AntiSpamMeta Beetny mateuszb mishoo jameser sirkmatija angavrilov scottj zacts heurist`_` fiveop bocaneri sdsadsdas nirved shka DGASAU dec0n mtd vlatkoB pvaneynd
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: Harag defaultxr sellout- joneshf-laptop thawes xhe davsebamse Patzy krasnal MetaHertz Kaisyu kjak_ pareidolia moei jibanes shdeng Lord_of_Life jason_m adolf_stalin BusFactor1 eschatologist cromachina fiddlerwoaroof karswell` CrazyEddy __main__ gigetoo ebrasca deank kori nelder seg travv0 MoALTz raynold[here] manualcrank schjetne whiteline eazar001 jdz tmc yrk opt9 impaktor omilu grublet d4ryus krrrcks ogamita chu gabot terpri mathrick reepca setheus frodef
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: ChrisOei SCHAAP137 thorondor[m] aaronjensen lancetw chavezgu kjeldahl GGMethos Glitchy N3vYn lieven brandonz jasom jself_ sohail_ lpaste_ malm abbe danlentz funnel samebcha1e djh__ himmAllRight17 l1x SAL9000 gbyers banjiewen paroneayea wyan trig-ger tobel d4gg4d |3b| nicdev DKordic froggey nimiux beaky paule32 DeadTrickster ``Erik kolko hjudt whartung Cymew ft myrkraverk djinni` malice` segmond Blukunfando Subfusc ecraven marsjaninzmarsa jfb4 splittist
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: nullx002- nrp3c khisanth_ wooden_ vibs29 shaftoe leo_song bungoman Zhivago fluter gko fitzsim Oddity rotty arrsim mnoonan vsync_ isoraqathedh Colleen erethon Nazral dcluna H4ns Intensity aeth ggherdov angular_mike_ LyndsySimon cods watersoul CEnnis91 XachX tfb justinmcp larsen pegu` sukaeto the_signalman AeroNotix trn clog housel Guest63925 White_Flame wizzo Wojciech_K dlowe nightfly j0ni tessier ineiros anachrome Cthulhux ec\ DrCode loke` vaporatorius
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: Sigyn Lord_Nightmare beach zymurgy jmasseo phoe foom gremly theBlackDragon n3k0_t stux|RC Petit_Dejeuner rann chronull` qlkzy jurov aje joga impulse emma lnostdal loke pillton Walex drdo sshirokov detergnet borodust fe[nl]ix Blkt emerson sigjuice killmaster Oladon o`connor billstclair k4rtik hzp TruePika arbv neuri8 e cross akkad lemoinem ym cpape thijso troydm tanuzzo vlnx peterhil` rpav freehck Nikotiini harlequin78[m] M-Illandan M-herah RichardPaulBck[m
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: fouric phadthai azrazalea dedmons alphor askatasuna misv SlashLife cyraxjoe holly2 kushal minion derrida lonjil ski nopf snits ozzloy itruslove Guest5935 cmatei cyberlard jsnell salva tkd cpt_nemo newcup groovy2shoes Xof xristos drot shenghi easye shikhin dim cantstanya Hoolootwo rjeli copec velvetcore vhost- heddwch sbryant HDurer brucem tokik frug72 antoszka TeMPOraL raydeejay tokenrove otwieracz __SiCC__ pok hydraz jean377_ unrahul mklk xantoz flip214
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: jcloud gz_ alms_clozure kilimanjaro asedeno nydel _death Firedancer Reinisch mrSpec Quadrescence arjenve sepi`` bounb les Karunamon Zotan Urfin peccu1 koisoke Faed amoe_ tiago mjl PuercoPop renard_ axion kjak p_l MorTal1ty drmeister mikaelj pacon Ober jackdaniel fluxit payphone fjl TMA yeltzooo tilpner makufiru luis aap eMBee redcedar tomaw z0d joeygibson gendl rvirding ramus zkat vert2 mood kbtr joast marcoecc switchy pchrist Neet_ mbrock larme coyo
2017-02-08T09:49:26Z names: Posterdati schoppenhauer norfumpit benny libreman thinkpad nullman
2017-02-08T09:49:27Z ogamita: erc cannot.
2017-02-08T09:49:28Z shka: smokeink: no idea what is wrong
2017-02-08T09:49:53Z flip214: else fiveam doesn't know what expressions are tests
2017-02-08T09:50:22Z flip214: smokeink: ie. "(= (* item item) (my-square item)))" => "(IS (= (* item item) (my-square item))))"
2017-02-08T09:50:34Z varjag: ogamita: but scheme should got to another channel!
2017-02-08T09:50:37Z varjag: go
2017-02-08T09:51:58Z smokeink: flip214: got it, thanks. Actually what i have here is a bit different. If i do (load "tests-file") then run the tests, it runs them. But when that file is loaded by asdf only, i run the tests and it says nothing ran..  I'm using this nice tool http://rpav.github.io/CheckL/
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2017-02-08T09:52:39Z myrkraverk: shka: I'm here again.
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2017-02-08T09:52:56Z myrkraverk: shka: was there something special?
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2017-02-08T09:53:24Z flip214: smokeink: ASDF has a TEST-OP too, that's what I'm using.
2017-02-08T09:53:41Z smokeink: yeah, using that
2017-02-08T09:54:17Z shka: myrkraverk: i just noticed that if i take away escaping in regex, it will return nil
2017-02-08T09:54:37Z shka: not sure if this is a bug
2017-02-08T09:54:47Z myrkraverk: I see.
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2017-02-08T09:54:55Z smokeink: it only runs the tests after i manually (load "tests-file") . I have a (break) in tests-file and it's being evaled when the system is loaded..
2017-02-08T09:55:18Z smokeink: but without manually loading it, fiveam fails to run the tests in the suite
2017-02-08T09:55:38Z flip214: shka: which characters do you esacpe?
2017-02-08T09:55:40Z flip214: *escape
2017-02-08T09:55:46Z shka: <>
2017-02-08T09:55:55Z shka: \<test\> example
2017-02-08T09:56:12Z smokeink inspecting this *definitions-only* : https://github.com/rpav/CheckL/blob/master/checkl.lisp
2017-02-08T09:56:24Z flip214: these shouldn't need escaping... in fact, a lisp string "\<" should be "<"
2017-02-08T09:56:36Z shka: yeah, sure
2017-02-08T09:56:42Z shka: it is my mistake
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2017-02-08T09:56:57Z shka: but
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2017-02-08T09:57:08Z shka: (cl-ppcre:all-matches "\<test\>" "test test test")) will return 0
2017-02-08T09:57:16Z shka: and it is kinda weird
2017-02-08T09:57:39Z jdz: shka: you sure about the number of backslashes?
2017-02-08T09:57:54Z shka: scratch that
2017-02-08T09:58:00Z shka: i'm stupid
2017-02-08T09:58:08Z shka: it works just fine
2017-02-08T09:58:19Z shka: sorry :-|
2017-02-08T09:58:42Z contrapunctus is having a hard time with cl-ppcre as well :\
2017-02-08T09:59:00Z phoe_: contrapunctus: what's your issue?
2017-02-08T09:59:03Z shka: myrkraverk: anyway, that snippet is ok, should do exactly what you want
2017-02-08T09:59:14Z myrkraverk: right, thanks.
2017-02-08T09:59:21Z contrapunctus: Is there anything which 1. has syntax comparable to rx.el in emacs 2. is documented, and not dead?
2017-02-08T10:01:36Z jdz: contrapunctus: cl-ppcre has a s-expression syntax as well.
2017-02-08T10:02:18Z contrapunctus: jdz: I know, but it's nowhere near rx in terms of convenience, I'm afraid.
2017-02-08T10:02:55Z contrapunctus: or, maybe I'm just doing something wrong.
2017-02-08T10:03:10Z jdz: contrapunctus: You can then write your own function which would transform the syntax you want to cl-ppcre's s-expressions?
2017-02-08T10:03:27Z flip214: contrapunctus: cl-interpol has #?rx( even \s the \s extended ) syntax
2017-02-08T10:03:41Z contrapunctus: jdz: yeah, I know :)
2017-02-08T10:06:51Z contrapunctus: flip214: I don't understand?
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2017-02-08T10:11:36Z paule32: so, i hope this styling is correct: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/550906/48654859/
2017-02-08T10:11:36Z flip214: contrapunctus: sorry, I don't know anything about "rx.el"... but the perl syntax (ie. not having to use double escapes, etc.) is supported by cl-interpol.
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2017-02-08T10:14:27Z paule32: in line 129, the symbol seems exists, but have no value
2017-02-08T10:14:53Z contrapunctus: flip214: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/rx
2017-02-08T10:18:49Z contrapunctus: flip214: more examples in the comments here - http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/lisp/emacs-lisp/rx.el
2017-02-08T10:19:12Z contrapunctus: (oh there's also the docstring to `rx' there)
2017-02-08T10:23:23Z flip214: that's looks like some function could convert it "easily"
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2017-02-08T10:28:43Z smokeink took me hours to find this, it seems that "tests-file" which is loaded by this asdf operation : (checkl:tests "tests-file") must not contain (in-package ...) otherwise the tests won't get regiestered into fiveam's :default suite
2017-02-08T10:32:33Z smokeink: btw, why does evaling (setf *default-pathname-defaults* proj-dir) inside an asdf:perform :before operation, or even as a topform in the .asd file doesn't have effect for the files that are (load)ed ? They still use the old *d-p-d* . Is this caused by asdf or by sbcl? Is it normal behaviour ?
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2017-02-08T10:34:01Z contrapunctus: In cl-ppcre, how may I insert a backslash into the replacement text?
2017-02-08T10:35:00Z loke: contrapunctus: You duplicate it?
2017-02-08T10:36:03Z antoszka: contrapunctus: "\\"
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2017-02-08T10:37:46Z antoszka: contrapunctus: CL-USER> (write-line (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "bar" "foobarbaz" "\\"))
2017-02-08T10:37:48Z antoszka: foo\baz
2017-02-08T10:37:50Z loke: cl-ppcre is a bit special, in that if the replacement contains a backslash followed by a number, the backslash needs to be duplicated, and since you also have to duplictae duplicate a backslash in a string in Lisp, you may have to quadruplicate it:
2017-02-08T10:38:07Z loke: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "(X)" "fooXbarXfoo" "Z\\1Y")
2017-02-08T10:38:14Z loke: vs (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "(X)" "fooXbarXfoo" "Z\\\\1Y")
2017-02-08T10:38:36Z antoszka: Yeah, backreferences complicate the matter a bit.
2017-02-08T10:39:15Z antoszka: But in general, don't worry if you see "foo\\bar" in your replacement string when it is *returned*, because it is escaped for READ-ing, so there's only one \ there :)
2017-02-08T10:39:27Z loke: antoszka: fair point
2017-02-08T10:39:39Z loke: always helpful to PRINC it :-)
2017-02-08T10:39:43Z antoszka: That's why I used WRITE-LINE to actually see the output printed, rather than have it returned.
2017-02-08T10:39:50Z loke: or that
2017-02-08T10:39:57Z antoszka: yeah, or PRINC
2017-02-08T10:41:46Z contrapunctus: I want to replace "..." (literal) with the text "\ldots"
2017-02-08T10:41:46Z contrapunctus:  
2017-02-08T10:42:05Z contrapunctus: (cl-ppcre::regex-replace-all "\\.\\.\\." "abc...def" "\ldots") => "abcldotsdef"
2017-02-08T10:42:05Z contrapunctus:  
2017-02-08T10:42:15Z contrapunctus: ...yeowch, what's with the newlines.
2017-02-08T10:42:39Z contrapunctus: (cl-ppcre::regex-replace-all "\\.\\.\\." "abc...def" "\\ldots") => "abc\\ldotsdef"
2017-02-08T10:43:04Z loke: contrapunctus: Right. what's wronmg with that?
2017-02-08T10:43:43Z loke: contrapunctus: Did you read what I and antoszka said?
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2017-02-08T10:44:26Z loke: You probably also want to replace with \ldots{} instead of just \ldots in order to make sure it works regardless of what comes after.
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2017-02-08T10:45:35Z contrapunctus: heh.
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2017-02-08T10:53:09Z contrapunctus: Why does WRITE-LINE work, though, and not WRITE?
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2017-02-08T10:55:31Z loke: contrapunctus: WRITE writes readably. I.e. it writes the oibject in a way that can br read back by READ
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2017-02-08T11:01:24Z contrapunctus: I see. Thanks, everyone :)
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2017-02-08T11:09:23Z phoe_: (let ((*write-readably* nil)) ...)
2017-02-08T11:09:25Z phoe_: https://writechoice.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/hand.png
2017-02-08T11:09:52Z contrapunctus: lmao
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2017-02-08T11:54:33Z varjag: is there any audio device portability layer lib for cl?
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2017-02-08T12:13:02Z phoe_: varjag: perhaps the closest thing you are looking for is some sort of SDL binding
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2017-02-08T12:13:26Z phoe_: because "audio portability layer" is CL-ish, but "audio DEVICE portability layer" sounds too low-level.
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2017-02-08T12:34:07Z eepohy: is there some way to get sbcl to respect a Base: file local variable?
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2017-02-08T12:38:15Z jackdaniel: eepohy: what do you mean?
2017-02-08T12:38:38Z ogamita: eepohy: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf *read-base* 8.))
2017-02-08T12:38:43Z eepohy: -*- Base:8 -*- and setting *read-base* to 8 for that buffer/file.
2017-02-08T12:38:54Z ogamita: File local variables are only processed by emacs.
2017-02-08T12:39:14Z ogamita: Now, perhaps slime could do something with this? Provide a contrib to slime?
2017-02-08T12:39:44Z HisaoNakai: jackdaniel: ahoy :) What's the reliable way to access command line arguments into an ECL script, then? (I'm currently using (si::command-args))
2017-02-08T12:39:47Z eepohy: your suggestion isn't useful at all, since it doesn't address the actual problem
2017-02-08T12:39:47Z HisaoNakai is now known as contrapunctus
2017-02-08T12:40:03Z ogamita: eepohy: what's your actual problem?
2017-02-08T12:40:24Z eepohy: having sbcl process Base: file local variables.
2017-02-08T12:40:52Z ogamita: 1- if it did, it would not be conforming to common lisp therefore it would have to be rejected.
2017-02-08T12:41:03Z eepohy: i am not asking it if does.
2017-02-08T12:41:08Z eepohy: i am asking how.
2017-02-08T12:41:09Z ogamita: 2- to make it do it, you would have to patch sbcl, so go patch sbcl.
2017-02-08T12:41:23Z eepohy: #lisp full of trolls as per usual. :-(
2017-02-08T12:41:29Z jackdaniel: himmAllRight17: (ext:argv n)
2017-02-08T12:41:30Z ogamita: Go fuck yourself!
2017-02-08T12:41:43Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: (ext:argv n)
2017-02-08T12:41:45Z xhe quit (Quit: leaving)
2017-02-08T12:41:49Z eepohy: that is very grown up.
2017-02-08T12:41:52Z jackdaniel: himmAllRight17: wrong nick, please ignore (sorry)
2017-02-08T12:42:00Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: and (ext:argc)
2017-02-08T12:42:03Z ogamita: eepohy: this is the effect you have on people.
2017-02-08T12:42:07Z contrapunctus: thanks, jackdaniel :)
2017-02-08T12:42:16Z jackdaniel: sure
2017-02-08T12:42:37Z eepohy: i guess sbcl isn't very useful in this case... back to cmucl
2017-02-08T12:42:44Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: there is also getenv, setenv etc
2017-02-08T12:44:12Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: wait, that just returns the number of args o_o
2017-02-08T12:44:24Z contrapunctus: not the arguments themselves
2017-02-08T12:44:26Z jackdaniel: argc, but argv returns arguments
2017-02-08T12:44:50Z jackdaniel: if you want a list, you may go with (loop :for i :from 0 :below (si:argc) :collect (si:argv i))
2017-02-08T12:45:43Z jackdaniel: or if you don't like loop: (ext:collect (args) (dotimes (i (si:argc) (args)) (args (si:argv i))))
2017-02-08T12:46:12Z phoe_: eepohy: hm. You could possibly read about compilation units.
2017-02-08T12:46:22Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: is si::command-args internal, then?
2017-02-08T12:46:27Z phoe_: Maybe something there could be helpful.
2017-02-08T12:46:36Z jackdaniel: yes, all symbols in si package are internal
2017-02-08T12:46:49Z jackdaniel: supported extensions are exported in ext
2017-02-08T12:46:58Z contrapunctus: ah, I see.
2017-02-08T12:47:20Z jackdaniel: but command-args is exported in ext
2017-02-08T12:47:27Z jackdaniel: so you may go with (ext:command-args indeed :)
2017-02-08T12:47:42Z phoe_: oh, wait.
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2017-02-08T12:48:00Z eepohy: phoe_: yeah, reading aboutthem...
2017-02-08T12:48:01Z jackdaniel is afk
2017-02-08T12:48:06Z phoe_: eepohy: how do you want SBCL to set the read base?
2017-02-08T12:48:18Z phoe_: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (setf *read-base* 8.)) <- is this not helping?
2017-02-08T12:48:34Z eepohy: phoe_: ofcourse it isn't, that isn't processing Base:
2017-02-08T12:49:17Z phoe_: Common Lisp has no notion of "Base:", whatever it is.
2017-02-08T12:49:24Z phoe_: I can see Emacs Lisp knows something about file local variables.
2017-02-08T12:49:29Z phoe_: Common Lisp doesn't.
2017-02-08T12:50:46Z eepohy: i didn't mention common lisp.
2017-02-08T12:51:03Z phoe_: "is there some way to get sbcl to respect a Base: file local variable?"
2017-02-08T12:51:10Z phoe_: SBCL is a Common Lisp implementation.
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2017-02-08T12:51:23Z eepohy: sbcl's code is complicated :/
2017-02-08T12:51:26Z deank quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2017-02-08T12:51:32Z phoe_: Actually.
2017-02-08T12:51:36Z phoe_: Define "respect".
2017-02-08T12:51:38Z phoe_: What is broken?
2017-02-08T12:51:43Z phoe_: What are the symptoms?
2017-02-08T12:53:26Z eepohy: as i already mentioned, twice: sbcl does not process Base: local variables, i need to modify it or find a modification that takes care of that.  not sure what is so unclear.
2017-02-08T12:53:31Z phoe_: "process"?
2017-02-08T12:53:34Z phoe_: What do you mean by "process"?
2017-02-08T12:53:57Z phoe_: What is the input you are feeding SBCL?
2017-02-08T12:53:59Z eepohy: ok, you must be some kind of a trump supporter.
2017-02-08T12:54:05Z phoe_: eepohy: no, I'm trying to help you.
2017-02-08T12:54:07Z phoe_: What is the output you expect?
2017-02-08T12:54:07Z eepohy: #lisp is as useless as before.
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2017-02-08T12:54:13Z phoe_: What is the output you get?
2017-02-08T12:54:47Z phoe_: ...xD
2017-02-08T12:54:50Z contrapunctus: lol
2017-02-08T12:55:05Z phoe_: you heard him boys
2017-02-08T12:55:08Z phoe_: make #lisp great again
2017-02-08T12:55:14Z phoe_ facepalms
2017-02-08T12:56:13Z phoe_: I'm speechless
2017-02-08T12:56:42Z axion: ...
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2017-02-08T12:57:04Z contrapunctus: lmao
2017-02-08T12:58:07Z axion: That is a new one; a troll complaining about his targets being trolls
2017-02-08T12:58:47Z edgar-rft: yeah on #lisp you learn every day something new :-)
2017-02-08T12:59:40Z ogamita: MLGA!
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2017-02-08T13:01:26Z iago: hi guys, are noob questions welcome here or there's a better channel for that ?
2017-02-08T13:01:26Z edgar-rft: Manitoba Ladies Golf Association?
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2017-02-08T13:01:58Z phoe_: iago: welcome here, but also #clnoobs
2017-02-08T13:02:05Z edgar-rft: iago: there's #clnoobs especially for noob questions
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2017-02-08T13:02:24Z iago: nice, thanks
2017-02-08T13:02:29Z iago: will try 1st there
2017-02-08T13:06:11Z malice`: I don't really like the idea of #clnoobs channel
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2017-02-08T13:06:34Z malice`: you can learn even from a simple question about e.g. dolist
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2017-02-08T13:08:52Z Cymew: While he was more than a bit lost, telling someone to "13:41 <ogamita> Go fuck yourself!" was uncalled for.
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2017-02-08T13:11:53Z ogamita: malice`: you can join both #lisp and #clnoobs.
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2017-02-08T13:12:38Z TCZ: nie znam clnoobs - i dont know clnoobs
2017-02-08T13:12:40Z phoe_: Oh yes, what Cymew said.
2017-02-08T13:12:41Z malice`: ogamita: yes, what I meant is that #lisp is more popular, so asking here is imho win-win situation
2017-02-08T13:12:41Z TCZ: xd
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2017-02-08T13:12:56Z ogamita: The thing is that at times, there may be both highly technical discussions and very newbie discussions, and it's easier if they're in different channels.
2017-02-08T13:13:36Z ogamita: TCZ: type: /join #clnoobs
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2017-02-08T13:13:57Z ogamita: Also, there's more tolerence for some questions in #clnoobs than here…
2017-02-08T13:14:17Z TCZ: ok im on clnoobs
2017-02-08T13:14:20Z malice`: ogamita: honestly, this channel is not that popular for two discussions to pose any real problem
2017-02-08T13:14:33Z malice`: plus, #haskell is REALLY nice and helpful, and you can ask for a total basics there
2017-02-08T13:14:38Z malice`: or even try to troll and fail
2017-02-08T13:14:59Z malice`: I wish this was this channel's policy instead of telling trolls to go fuck themselves, effectively feeding them
2017-02-08T13:15:17Z TCZ: i used to troll on haskell...
2017-02-08T13:15:21Z malice`: and #python is also large and you can ask a basics(and the channel is really popular, lots of questions, and they still manage to answer)
2017-02-08T13:15:37Z malice`: TCZ: but you found it easier to troll on #lisp? :)
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2017-02-08T13:16:23Z TCZ: never tried..
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2017-02-08T13:19:36Z ogamita: malice`: depends on the time of the day (and of the year).
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2017-02-08T13:20:08Z malice`: ogamita: agreed
2017-02-08T13:20:37Z ogamita: malice`: there have been some nice discussions between beach and drmeister, but implemeter-level, not newbie level, and at those times, it was good to be able to have newbie traffic in #clnoobs.
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2017-02-08T13:21:14Z ogamita: and notice that there are also a lot of other channels, #ccl, #sbcl, ##lisp, etc.
2017-02-08T13:21:28Z ogamita: http://cliki.net/IRC
2017-02-08T13:21:38Z ogamita: and #lispweb, #lispgames, …
2017-02-08T13:21:48Z malice`: I always treat #implementation as a channel that you go to ask a question about implementation, not language
2017-02-08T13:22:14Z ogamita: Indeed.
2017-02-08T13:22:38Z ogamita: Perhaps eepohy would have been more lucky in #sbcl.
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2017-02-08T13:25:08Z Cymew: It was not a question about sbcl.
2017-02-08T13:25:27Z Cymew: "13:38 <eepohy> -*- Base:8 -*- and setting *read-base* to 8 for that buffer/file."
2017-02-08T13:25:55Z Cymew: He probably should have talked to #emacs
2017-02-08T13:26:30Z contrapunctus: ah, maybe if we'd referred them to #emacs, they may have gotten the idea...
2017-02-08T13:29:15Z contrapunctus: I'm writing a script which uses Serapeum, and calls Quicklisp to install it for the user. But the former is noticeably heavyweight in its dependencies, and I need it only for the ~> operator...is there some way to have Quicklisp just fetch a part of it?
2017-02-08T13:30:02Z Xach_: contrapunctus: no.
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2017-02-08T13:30:23Z Xach_: contrapunctus: depending on the license and intertangledness, you could rip it out of serapeum manually
2017-02-08T13:30:51Z axion: or just do what everyone else does, and reimplement it
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2017-02-08T13:31:13Z Xach_: what does ~> do?
2017-02-08T13:31:55Z contrapunctus: Xach_: (~> a b c) is the same as (c (b a))
2017-02-08T13:31:55Z shka: Xach_: it is kinda like -> in clojure
2017-02-08T13:32:22Z Xach_: contrapunctus: thanks.
2017-02-08T13:32:24Z contrapunctus: (and one can put _ to change arg position; or use ~>> to always use the last arg)
2017-02-08T13:32:28Z Xach_: shka: I don't know what -> in clojure does either.
2017-02-08T13:32:37Z shka: well, you know now :-)
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2017-02-08T13:33:09Z shka: just reduces nesting depth in code
2017-02-08T13:33:39Z shka: that's it purpose
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2017-02-08T13:50:01Z shka: contrapunctus: it would be probably wise to just not use serapeum
2017-02-08T13:50:14Z contrapunctus: shka: D:
2017-02-08T13:50:15Z shka: ~> is just a syntax sugar
2017-02-08T13:50:20Z shka: i know, i know
2017-02-08T13:50:30Z shka: i also like this package
2017-02-08T13:50:51Z shka: but in your case, why complicate it?
2017-02-08T13:51:20Z shka: i personally never care on how many dependencies my library has
2017-02-08T13:51:25Z shka: (thanks to quicklisp)
2017-02-08T13:51:54Z shka: but if you do care, perhaps you should simply skip nonessential parts
2017-02-08T13:56:17Z contrapunctus: true
2017-02-08T13:56:37Z contrapunctus: What's IN-READTABLE?
2017-02-08T13:56:57Z contrapunctus: or rather, where does it come from...
2017-02-08T13:57:01Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: named-readtables
2017-02-08T13:57:16Z jackdaniel: it mimics package api to lower a cognitive effort
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2017-02-08T14:00:13Z malice`: THANKS
2017-02-08T14:00:20Z malice`: I've been looking for the ~> for the long time
2017-02-08T14:00:23Z malice`: and it was in serapeum!
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2017-02-08T14:00:41Z malice`: is it different from https://github.com/hipeta/arrow-macros though?
2017-02-08T14:01:33Z jackdaniel: mind that shady not widely-adapted syntax doesn't improve readability (just saying)
2017-02-08T14:02:09Z travv0: malice`: it appears to be the same
2017-02-08T14:02:18Z axion: I never understood those arrows, not having ever used clojure
2017-02-08T14:02:37Z axion: They seem interesting though. Just wish there was a better explanation than how the project describes them
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2017-02-08T14:08:34Z shaftoe: ~>> is my friend
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2017-02-08T14:14:10Z travv0: axion: if you want a better explanation, it honestly might be easiest to just read the clojure docs for them https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/-%3E
2017-02-08T14:19:08Z jdz: For those macros to be really useful standard library functions must have consistent argument positioning.  Not sure what the case is with CL, though.
2017-02-08T14:20:20Z dlowe: hahaha
2017-02-08T14:20:23Z contrapunctus: jdz: the serapeum version (and maybe others) has _ to specify a different position
2017-02-08T14:20:46Z jdz: Also, CL has multpile values.
2017-02-08T14:22:06Z shka: jdz: there are cases where macros like those are really useful
2017-02-08T14:22:17Z flip214: :e!
2017-02-08T14:22:19Z flip214: sorry
2017-02-08T14:22:25Z shka: for instance multiple (with-something) blocks
2017-02-08T14:22:39Z shaftoe: the ~>> can be used like this (using dict from serapeum as well)
2017-02-08T14:22:47Z shka: try opening 5 files
2017-02-08T14:22:59Z shaftoe: (~>> (dict :a 1 :b (dict :c 3)) :a :c)
2017-02-08T14:23:15Z shka: anyway, it is optional
2017-02-08T14:23:18Z shaftoe: actually that might be a little broken
2017-02-08T14:23:20Z shaftoe: but you get the point
2017-02-08T14:23:26Z shaftoe: (~>> (dict :a 1 :b (dict :c 3)) :b :c)
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2017-02-08T14:23:58Z shaftoe: actually that's a lot broken, ignore me
2017-02-08T14:24:26Z jdz: shaftoe: #clojure is ===> that way
2017-02-08T14:24:31Z shaftoe: hah
2017-02-08T14:24:38Z shaftoe hides in corner
2017-02-08T14:25:16Z shka: actually ====> points to #clasp here :D
2017-02-08T14:26:30Z contrapunctus: malice`: and I didn't know of arrow-macros :)
2017-02-08T14:26:59Z malice`: contrapunctus: :)
2017-02-08T14:28:26Z jdz: shaftoe: if you must: (reduce #'(lambda (list key) (getf list key)) '(:b :c) :initial-value '(:a 1 :b (:c 3)))
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2017-02-08T14:30:03Z jdz: Anyway, we can all agree that the arrow macros work better in Clojure, and leave it at that.
2017-02-08T14:30:25Z PuercoPop: contrapunctus: if you only want -> try (hipeta/)arrow-macros
2017-02-08T14:30:38Z dlowe: I'm a fan of positional-lambda for this kind of stuff
2017-02-08T14:32:32Z contrapunctus: ...arrow-macros isn't exactly lightweight either :\
2017-02-08T14:34:29Z malice`: contrapunctus: you mean deps?
2017-02-08T14:34:30Z PuercoPop: ah I see malice already pointed them to that library. The implementation in serapeum is different that arrow-macros. In arrow-macros it uses hu.dwim.walker while the serapeum version in sbcl uses sb-walker
2017-02-08T14:35:03Z malice`: PuercoPop: for that reason (afaik) arrow-macros doesn't work in ecl
2017-02-08T14:35:15Z contrapunctus: yeah, malice` ; also http://ix.io/1SPz
2017-02-08T14:35:30Z contrapunctus: and ECL was what I was using for this x-P
2017-02-08T14:35:39Z PuercoPop: contrapunctus: If you only care about SBCL  you can lift the code from christopher rhodes post (as serapeum did iirc). It is self contained
2017-02-08T14:35:40Z malice`: :D
2017-02-08T14:36:18Z malice`: contrapunctus: hopefully ecl will be fixed to work with hu.dwim.walker soon
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2017-02-08T14:37:33Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: this particular error is fixed in 16.1.3 release (env propagation in nested cross-referenced closures) – haven't testd if the walker works, but it loads on my host
2017-02-08T14:38:15Z malice`: jackdaniel: good to know!
2017-02-08T14:38:25Z malice`: contrapunctus: time to upgrade :)
2017-02-08T14:38:29Z jackdaniel: oneliner to check with arrow-macros?
2017-02-08T14:38:39Z jackdaniel: so I can post it in repl and see if it returns a result?
2017-02-08T14:38:47Z contrapunctus: PuercoPop: Serapeum does work with ECL, but I wasn't able to successfully copy-pasta it into this script. (it requires named-readtables, but even after loading that I got "the function IN-READTABLE is undefined")
2017-02-08T14:39:02Z contrapunctus: s/it into/the code into/
2017-02-08T14:39:31Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: (named-readtables:in-readtable …) maybe?
2017-02-08T14:39:33Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: it simply failed to install - http://ix.io/1SPz
2017-02-08T14:39:46Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: yes, this error is fixed in recent release
2017-02-08T14:39:52Z jackdaniel: read previous messages
2017-02-08T14:40:53Z jackdaniel: hu.dwim.walker:macroexpand-all seems to work
2017-02-08T14:41:17Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: am I correct to assume that ECL provides its own code walker? Apropos shown walker:define-walker-template
2017-02-08T14:41:21Z PuercoPop: *shows
2017-02-08T14:41:25Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: oh, I see; (-> 1 (+ 2 3) (- 2 3)) => 1
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2017-02-08T14:42:09Z contrapunctus: erm that should be arrow-macros::->
2017-02-08T14:42:29Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: yes
2017-02-08T14:42:57Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: works for me
2017-02-08T14:43:19Z jackdaniel: so updating ECL should fix your problem
2017-02-08T14:44:40Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: package walker, feature :walker, file src/clos/walk.lsp
2017-02-08T14:44:49Z contrapunctus: jackdaniel: when would this make it to Debian Testing?
2017-02-08T14:45:10Z jackdaniel: contrapunctus: I don't know, ask debian package keeper
2017-02-08T14:45:33Z contrapunctus: okay, thanks :D
2017-02-08T14:45:55Z jackdaniel: I know that gentoo has it in testing, they are very responsive with that
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2017-02-08T14:46:58Z PuercoPop: contrapunctus: The API of the ECL is similar enough to SBCL's that you can use the code from C. Rhodes post. Just replace sb-walker for walker
2017-02-08T14:47:04Z PuercoPop: http://christophe.rhodes.io/notes/blog/posts/2014/code_walking_for_pipe_sequencing/
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2017-02-08T14:47:10Z PuercoPop: and avoid all dependencies
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2017-02-08T14:48:35Z tiket: say i have three nested lambdas and the inner one access a parameter in the outer (a free variable). how is this implemented? does it follow two environment "links"?
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2017-02-08T14:48:56Z contrapunctus: Thanks, PuercoPop , I'll look into that too.
2017-02-08T14:48:56Z tiket: or does it cache free variables locally?
2017-02-08T14:49:11Z tiket: i see slowdowns when using free variables, i suppose the reason is that it reads by following static links
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2017-02-08T14:50:21Z jackdaniel: tiket: you mean (lambda (a) (lambda () (incf a))) ; ?
2017-02-08T14:50:32Z Xach_: tiket: there are multiple implementation options. Lisp in Small Pieces discusses the pros and cons of several.
2017-02-08T14:51:35Z tiket: Xach_: i see
2017-02-08T14:51:48Z tiket: jackdaniel: yes, but three layers of wrapping in my case
2017-02-08T14:52:26Z tiket: in the inner lambda, i loop over the free variable and it's pretty slow compared to caching it in a temporary
2017-02-08T14:52:30Z tiket: wonder what's going on
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2017-02-08T14:53:13Z jackdaniel: if it's a lambda parameter, it's not free variable but a lexical one
2017-02-08T14:53:49Z tiket: jackdaniel: huh? accessing a lambda argument in an outer lambda is considered free, no?
2017-02-08T14:53:59Z drmeister: How do I trap this?   Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded.
2017-02-08T14:54:28Z drmeister: I'm running sbcl and I'm using run-program to invoke clang.  Clang is generating an error.  That is somehow confusing sbcl
2017-02-08T14:54:44Z jackdaniel: tiket: maybe I'm wrong, but I think that it's not considered free
2017-02-08T14:55:32Z drmeister: If nothing else I'd just like sbcl to shut down.  It goes into an infinite loop spewing  Help! 11 nested errors. SB-KERNEL:*MAXIMUM-ERROR-DEPTH* exceeded.
2017-02-08T14:56:12Z tiket: jackdaniel: i think per definition, it's free, according to lambda calculus
2017-02-08T14:57:20Z jackdaniel: OK, then I have probably mixed up something
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2017-02-08T14:58:11Z tiket: it doesn't matter for this problem though, which is how, say, CLISP implements access to variables in lexical parents
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2017-02-08T15:10:03Z beach: tiket: It depends on the implementation, and it may even depend on how your nested functions are manipulated.  For example, if the compiler of the implementation can not prove that a nested function is called in some orderly way (it may be called by a different thread, or at least several times in some unpredictable way), then the compiler may have to use a slower representation.  In other words, it is hard to say something general for
2017-02-08T15:10:04Z beach: one implementation, let alone for all Common Lisp implementations.
2017-02-08T15:11:11Z beach: tiket: If the variable is only initialized once and then only read by inner functions, a technique called "lambda lifting" can be used.
2017-02-08T15:11:19Z tiket: beach: i was asking for CLIPS
2017-02-08T15:11:22Z tiket: CLISP*
2017-02-08T15:11:40Z beach: tiket: That particular Common Lisp implementation is not very well maintained, and very few people here use it.
2017-02-08T15:11:54Z tiket: what's "the best one"?
2017-02-08T15:12:23Z PuercoPop: tiket: it depends on your priorities
2017-02-08T15:12:47Z PuercoPop: what do you want from the implementation?
2017-02-08T15:12:50Z tiket: well, as it stands, things are too slow, so i guess speed is a pri
2017-02-08T15:12:51Z beach: Most people here probably use SBCL.  But ECL is now very well maintained (by jackdaniel) so he may be able to answer specifics for ECL.  CCL is also used by many #lisp participants.
2017-02-08T15:13:10Z tiket: maintained by a guy who doesn't know what free variables is?
2017-02-08T15:13:12Z tiket: hm
2017-02-08T15:13:19Z beach: tiket: Certainly, if speed is what you want, CLISP is not a great choice.
2017-02-08T15:13:37Z tiket: alright
2017-02-08T15:13:40Z PuercoPop: tiket: SBCL is the one you want if you want the generated code to run fast
2017-02-08T15:13:47Z beach: tiket: Oh, come on!  That is just a word that happens to be defined by theoreticians.
2017-02-08T15:14:11Z tiket: still
2017-02-08T15:14:17Z tiket: kinda basic
2017-02-08T15:14:31Z Cymew: Anyway. SBCL is probably the way to go.
2017-02-08T15:14:32Z tiket: sbcl should be good for macos, yes?
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2017-02-08T15:14:50Z beach: tiket: SBCL implements the macro system of the standard, yes.
2017-02-08T15:15:08Z tiket: haha, macos == osx
2017-02-08T15:15:10Z Cymew: I think he means Apple machines.
2017-02-08T15:15:14Z travv0: It runs on Mac OS
2017-02-08T15:15:19Z tiket: ok, good
2017-02-08T15:15:21Z beach: Oh, sorry, misread.
2017-02-08T15:15:31Z tiket: beach: i can see why :)
2017-02-08T15:15:46Z beach is turning dyslexic little by little. :(
2017-02-08T15:16:29Z TMA: tiket: ccl is a descendant of openmcl, their MacOS support might be somewhat better
2017-02-08T15:16:34Z beach: tiket: Since Common Lisp is not a purely functional programming language, the only relation between it and the lambda calculus may be the symbol LAMBDA, I think jackdaniel can be forgiven for not knowing the exact definition.
2017-02-08T15:17:29Z tiket: that's not how i think about lisp, but fair enough
2017-02-08T15:17:37Z beach: tiket: The good news is that jackdaniel is a quick learner.
2017-02-08T15:17:53Z PuercoPop: CCL is moving to github
2017-02-08T15:17:56Z tiket: sure, not pure, but the core is certainly lambda calculus
2017-02-08T15:18:07Z beach: tiket: I was specifically talking about Common Lisp, not about Lisp in general.
2017-02-08T15:18:13Z tiket: anyway, SBCL works fine and I see 500% speedup o.O
2017-02-08T15:18:17Z tiket: beach: i see
2017-02-08T15:18:28Z tiket: goodbye CLISP
2017-02-08T15:19:27Z tiket: beach: fast learning? he doesn't even spell his name right! :)
2017-02-08T15:19:59Z tiket: he took the s out of whikey
2017-02-08T15:20:07Z beach: tiket: I suggest you go to ELS and discuss it with him.
2017-02-08T15:20:12Z tiket: :D
2017-02-08T15:20:20Z tiket: just pulling legs, I'm sure he's a fine boy
2017-02-08T15:20:25Z beach: He is.
2017-02-08T15:20:56Z tiket: out of curiosity, anyone miss types when doing lisp?
2017-02-08T15:21:03Z tiket: as programs grow?
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2017-02-08T15:21:09Z tiket: i'm fairly new in the lisp game
2017-02-08T15:21:12Z beach: Common Lisp has a fine type system.
2017-02-08T15:21:22Z tiket: i mean, explicit typing
2017-02-08T15:21:26Z nirved: clisp is good if you want really long floats
2017-02-08T15:21:35Z tiket: haha
2017-02-08T15:21:54Z beach: tiket: Explicit typing is know to be premature and require information from the programmer that the programmer can't possibly have so early.
2017-02-08T15:22:00Z PuercoPop: tiket: you mean types used for program correctness. Lisp has types as beach pointed out
2017-02-08T15:22:19Z beach: tiket: Hence the additional cost of programming in languages that requires this information, because it often has to be rewritten later.
2017-02-08T15:22:24Z tiket: yes, talking about static typing here PuercoPop
2017-02-08T15:22:26Z travv0: I assume he means compile-time checks
2017-02-08T15:22:35Z tiket: indeed
2017-02-08T15:22:54Z beach: Oh, you mean the ones that prevent you from running your code until you have told everything to the compiler?
2017-02-08T15:22:55Z tiket: not arguing for or against, just interested in know how lisp peeps feel about it
2017-02-08T15:23:01Z tiket: beach: those, yes :)
2017-02-08T15:23:19Z tiket: clearly they catch a class of bugs, but i'm fed up with fighting with type systems
2017-02-08T15:23:25Z shka: tiket: it is not like in python, i tell you that…
2017-02-08T15:23:38Z tiket: shka: meaning?
2017-02-08T15:23:44Z shka: it is not duck typed
2017-02-08T15:23:53Z malice`: tiket: "not in python" -> "it does not suck(as much)"
2017-02-08T15:24:00Z shka: yes
2017-02-08T15:24:00Z malice`: s/in python/like in python/
2017-02-08T15:24:08Z shka: this as well
2017-02-08T15:24:12Z malice`: ;)
2017-02-08T15:24:26Z PuercoPop: tiket: Never don't miss them, even when reading/understanding medium size libraries I didn't write like montezuma. Then again I haven't worked on huge lisp code base.
2017-02-08T15:24:57Z malice`: tiket: you get types in your head, and Lisp's dynamic nature helps you to do everything else
2017-02-08T15:25:36Z malice`: tiket: If I was to use something in C++, I'd check out the return type, see what it returns(probably in documentation or by printing), then write few more functions that do what I want, probably requiring me to read about few more types
2017-02-08T15:26:00Z malice`: tiket: in CL, when I see e.g. drakma, I just call (drakma:http-request ...) in REPL, see what I got and work with it
2017-02-08T15:26:34Z malice`: of course THEORETICALLY function could have return type of list or vector or class instance or T or nil and so on
2017-02-08T15:27:06Z malice`: but in CL you are assumed to be a sane person who does not need shackles
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2017-02-08T15:30:05Z tiket: malice`: sure, no shackles wanted, but for production stuff, i'd like to avoid stupid mistakes like applying string operations on integers
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2017-02-08T15:30:17Z tiket: sure, it was *my* mistake, but these things happens at scale
2017-02-08T15:30:26Z tiket: on the other hand, i hate dealing with most type systems
2017-02-08T15:30:32Z azrazalea: I use types in my common lisp and sbcl checks them and even catches some things at compile time.
2017-02-08T15:30:39Z jackdaniel: tiket: not a nice things to read in a backlog, but thanks I guess
2017-02-08T15:30:44Z azrazalea: I usually add the types after i'm done experimenting to check for errors later
2017-02-08T15:30:45Z jackdaniel: s/a//
2017-02-08T15:30:58Z tiket: jackdaniel: did you miss the part about pulling legs?
2017-02-08T15:31:44Z tiket: azrazalea: do you have an example of "use types" in clisp? The code I've looked at is completely dynamically typed.
2017-02-08T15:32:01Z tiket: do you mean type annotation of some sort?
2017-02-08T15:32:11Z flip214: clhs declare
2017-02-08T15:32:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_declar.htm
2017-02-08T15:32:16Z flip214: tiket: see ^^
2017-02-08T15:32:23Z azrazalea: tiket: Yeah, type annotation. It's runtime checking with a bit of compile time thrown in by some implementations including SBCL.
2017-02-08T15:32:25Z flip214: you can declare function argument and return types
2017-02-08T15:32:38Z azrazalea: So no inference etc
2017-02-08T15:32:50Z tiket: i see. regarding inference, no hindley milner support?
2017-02-08T15:32:57Z tiket: in any lisps
2017-02-08T15:32:59Z azrazalea: tiket: If you want a full type system checkout http://shenlanguage.org/
2017-02-08T15:33:10Z jackdaniel: tiket: that wasn't nice either, but whatever
2017-02-08T15:33:16Z azrazalea: Not sure if they do hindley milner or not
2017-02-08T15:33:25Z tiket: jackdaniel: lol, thin skin on IRC doesn't work
2017-02-08T15:33:26Z jackdaniel: I'll think twice before I'll answer next time ;)
2017-02-08T15:33:44Z tiket: azrazalea: i take a look at shen
2017-02-08T15:33:49Z jackdaniel: I'm just pointing out that it was impolite – being rude doesn't work either
2017-02-08T15:33:57Z tiket: but it sure is fun
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2017-02-08T15:34:35Z tiket makes mental note: do NOT invite jackdaniel to the linux kernel mailing list, he will commit suicide
2017-02-08T15:35:04Z tiket: azrazalea: interesting, seems like Shen is a transpiler, "runs under CLisp, SBCL, Clojure, Scheme, Ruby, Python, the JVM, Haskell and Javascript"
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2017-02-08T15:38:35Z kori: Shen is WEIRDDDD
2017-02-08T15:38:42Z tiket: yeah?
2017-02-08T15:39:01Z shka: Shen: "At last: Lisp Haskellian!"
2017-02-08T15:39:08Z ogamita: Liskell!
2017-02-08T15:39:13Z shka: Haskelisp?
2017-02-08T15:39:15Z tiket: Hisp
2017-02-08T15:39:23Z tiket: mexicans will love it
2017-02-08T15:39:30Z shka: you are getting idea anyway
2017-02-08T15:39:49Z ogamita: tiket: well, macos is ambiguous.  It could be MacOS or macOS.  macOS = Mac OS X, but MacOS is entirely different (and older).
2017-02-08T15:39:52Z shka: Shen is like crazy hybrid between ML language and Lisp language
2017-02-08T15:40:01Z jackdaniel: tiket: I think you miss a point –I'm just saying that being an asshole doesn't pay, but I suppose character can't change
2017-02-08T15:40:15Z tiket: ogamita: ambiguity resolved by avoiding anachronism
2017-02-08T15:40:30Z tiket: jackdaniel: also, i don't care
2017-02-08T15:40:36Z ogamita: tiket: don't worry, they can still name about 30 other version of their OS with different capitalizations.
2017-02-08T15:40:45Z tiket: ogamita: that is true
2017-02-08T15:40:46Z kori: tiket: it's good weird I think
2017-02-08T15:40:49Z ogamita: (And how dumb is that, when their file system is case insensitive by default).
2017-02-08T15:41:05Z tiket: ogamita: the new file system fixes that, fortunately
2017-02-08T15:41:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2017-02-08T15:41:10Z jackdaniel: apparently
2017-02-08T15:41:13Z tiket: running it in beta now
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2017-02-08T15:43:21Z malice`: tiket: if you want to see an example of type usage in CL
2017-02-08T15:43:29Z tiket: malice`: i do
2017-02-08T15:43:30Z malice`: tiket: you might check my (kind of ugly) code: https://github.com/MatthewRock/tau/blob/master/tau.lisp
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2017-02-08T15:43:37Z malice`: and see the history
2017-02-08T15:43:48Z malice`: now I fixed few bugs, so there's that, but basically the first version didn't have any type declarations at all
2017-02-08T15:43:56Z malice`: the last version is type-heavy for optimization purposes
2017-02-08T15:44:10Z tiket: that's the only rationale? optimization?
2017-02-08T15:44:14Z tiket: not correctness?
2017-02-08T15:44:20Z malice`: what for?
2017-02-08T15:44:28Z malice`: try this (+ 2 " is two")
2017-02-08T15:44:34Z malice`: you'll get type error
2017-02-08T15:45:10Z malice`: type correctness might be useful in Haskell, so you can see that types match during compilation
2017-02-08T15:45:11Z tiket: sure, but pass " is two" as a parameter
2017-02-08T15:45:27Z malice`: in Lisp, we usually run our programs instead of just compiling
2017-02-08T15:45:32Z malice`: tiket: ?
2017-02-08T15:45:40Z tiket: malice`: that misses the point
2017-02-08T15:45:59Z malice`: that was a friendly dini
2017-02-08T15:46:04Z tiket: since you cannot possibly run all the possible branches, unless you have 100% test coverage
2017-02-08T15:46:04Z malice`: tiket: what parameter?
2017-02-08T15:46:24Z tiket: the one you make up
2017-02-08T15:46:37Z malice`: I don't understand the problem. Could you provide the code example?
2017-02-08T15:46:46Z tiket: sure you do
2017-02-08T15:48:03Z dlowe: Nothing is going to be said here about late and early binding that hasn't been said decades before.
2017-02-08T15:48:44Z tiket: sounds likely
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2017-02-08T15:49:34Z tiket: malice`: so you use types to get optimizations, how much do you gain?
2017-02-08T15:49:41Z shka: tiket: impact of static typing on bug count reduction is IMHO largely overrated
2017-02-08T15:49:55Z malice`: tiket: well, first of all, depends on compiler
2017-02-08T15:50:03Z shka: and on code
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2017-02-08T15:50:17Z malice`: tiket: my first implementation divided integers, meaning I got fracitons(CL built-in) instead of floats. They are precise, but slow.
2017-02-08T15:50:17Z tiket: shka: been thinking about that, very hard to get real objective numbres. No doubt, I do get compile errors in Java/C++ a lot because I made typing mistakes
2017-02-08T15:50:38Z malice`: tiket: One iteration took about 20 minutes on small example, but the results were precise.
2017-02-08T15:50:55Z malice`: tiket: after adding type declarations I got down to 0.001s for 100 iterations
2017-02-08T15:51:06Z malice`: so I'd say few orders of magnitude
2017-02-08T15:51:14Z malice`: but I also changed type in meantime
2017-02-08T15:51:38Z tiket: shka: the problem is that you don't get a bug report for silly type errors in, say, Java, because the compiler caught it (unless you're into covariance issues on collections, etc)
2017-02-08T15:51:43Z tiket: so hard to say
2017-02-08T15:51:48Z tiket: malice`: cool
2017-02-08T15:51:51Z shka: tiket: well, i speak as C++ programmer: type correctness saves like 5% of bugs
2017-02-08T15:51:58Z shka: and just trivial bugs
2017-02-08T15:52:13Z tiket: trivial bugs that crop up in production tend to blow up rockets
2017-02-08T15:52:24Z tiket: if thus deployed
2017-02-08T15:52:29Z shka: sure
2017-02-08T15:52:35Z shka: that's why i prefer to have unit tests
2017-02-08T15:52:41Z shka: that i have time write
2017-02-08T15:52:53Z shka: because i'm not wasting time to read c++ compilation errors ;-)
2017-02-08T15:53:05Z tiket: aha, that's the problem right there. Time to write. Time to update when you change what is tested.
2017-02-08T15:53:29Z shka: well, thanks to dynamic typing i have to make less changes in the code
2017-02-08T15:53:31Z shka: anyway
2017-02-08T15:53:34Z dlowe: as I recall, most actual rockets had bulletproof software written in assembly, the most typeless language of all
2017-02-08T15:53:35Z tiket: on the other hand, Lisp code appears to be an order of magnitude shorter, so less code is less bugs
2017-02-08T15:54:00Z shaftoe: depends if you're declaring and checking types or not
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2017-02-08T15:54:10Z shka: there is a reason why in the land of web development language like Ruby or Python grow even more popular
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2017-02-08T15:54:54Z shka: in fact i think in majority of IT right now dynamic typing seems to grow in popularity
2017-02-08T15:55:17Z shka: because it is just simpler
2017-02-08T15:55:23Z tiket: barely http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/
2017-02-08T15:55:26Z dlowe: it's on the way out atm
2017-02-08T15:55:33Z tiket: in fact, Ruby is going down
2017-02-08T15:55:53Z malice`: tiket: we are also not Java
2017-02-08T15:55:54Z shka: but go is going up
2017-02-08T15:55:55Z dlowe: my idea (as yet unimplemented) is to make a full-image type checker for lisp
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2017-02-08T15:56:03Z malice`: tiket: we prefer to use lots of small functions
2017-02-08T15:56:06Z tiket: dlowe: hindley milner style?
2017-02-08T15:56:09Z malice`: or just functions that don't do all the things
2017-02-08T15:56:22Z tiket: malice`: yes, that's the upside, absolutely
2017-02-08T15:56:23Z dlowe: tiket: whatever
2017-02-08T15:56:38Z tiket: the whatever type system. lovely :)
2017-02-08T15:56:41Z malice`: tiket: I was programming much in C++ before coming to Lisp, so I got the difference.
2017-02-08T15:56:43Z malice`: it's huge.
2017-02-08T15:56:52Z dlowe: but you could develop your program with your sloppy lisp functions, then tighten it all up afterwards
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2017-02-08T15:59:13Z tiket: malice`: been programming for a loooong time in c++ and I grow more an more suspicous about nominal type systems. It restricts expressiveness a lot, and you spend an enourmous amount of time relating names to eachother.
2017-02-08T15:59:40Z tiket: ML style structural typing, OTH, seems dandy
2017-02-08T16:00:02Z tiket: with some dangerous corners to be aware of
2017-02-08T16:00:12Z shka: tiket: you did not grew tired of C++ template compiler errors, didn't you? ;-)
2017-02-08T16:00:30Z tiket: shka: tired of waiting for concepts to fix those errors, sure :)
2017-02-08T16:00:38Z tiket: maybe in c++20
2017-02-08T16:01:28Z shka: well, programmed types are just putting to much strain on my brain
2017-02-08T16:01:52Z tiket: Clojure is problematic in that regard, suddenly I'm in the static oop land, screwing up my mojo
2017-02-08T16:02:11Z tiket: sure, having access to the huge JRE is nice, but.....
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2017-02-08T16:02:40Z aeth: The proper compromise would be optionally working with types. Sort of like (declare (foo x y z)) that's already in CL, but more powerful, and more defined.
2017-02-08T16:02:49Z shka: i just don't wan't to think all that much about types because it just takes time and makes code complicated
2017-02-08T16:02:52Z tiket: shka: the main reason I like types is accurate IDE completion and navigation, and that's clearly powerful
2017-02-08T16:03:07Z shka: ok, that is pretty much
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2017-02-08T16:03:07Z tiket: aeth: gradual typing, you mean?
2017-02-08T16:03:11Z aeth: tiket: yes
2017-02-08T16:03:18Z tiket: agreed
2017-02-08T16:03:25Z aeth: Because on the one hand, a lot of the time types are really annoying. I'd hate to write something in e.g. Java or Haskell from scratch. On the other hand, a lot of the time I know this is just going to be a single-float or a double-float or a small integer.
2017-02-08T16:03:38Z shka: but if you need IDE to actually get things done, your project is already overcomplicated
2017-02-08T16:03:41Z aeth: Or a size 3 vector of single-floats, etc.
2017-02-08T16:03:56Z tiket: shka: nah, some projects are simply huge
2017-02-08T16:03:57Z aeth: shka: I need an IDE to actually get my Lisp code done.
2017-02-08T16:04:12Z travv0: shka: do you not use SLIME?
2017-02-08T16:04:14Z aeth: shka: I can no longer indent or match parentheses without Emacs+SLIME
2017-02-08T16:04:25Z aeth: I used to, when I first started, but now I can't.
2017-02-08T16:04:42Z aeth: (Also, paredit)
2017-02-08T16:04:56Z shka: i meant: if you need intelisense style tips
2017-02-08T16:05:02Z Petit_Dejeuner misses types
2017-02-08T16:05:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: Guess I should go join #haskell.
2017-02-08T16:05:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: static types*
2017-02-08T16:05:20Z tiket: shka: that sounds very macho, but the usefulness of getting a list of valid methods when you type "." is undeniable
2017-02-08T16:05:30Z shka: sure it is
2017-02-08T16:05:30Z aeth: shka: I'd rather have SBCL's style warnings inlined than have to decode line numbers manually.
2017-02-08T16:06:10Z aeth: shka: Also, flyspell-prog-mode for comments and strings. Although that can produce a lot of false positives in programming, it's not *that* bad because CL uses keywords where a lot of scripting languages like might use strings.
2017-02-08T16:06:19Z shka: tiket: but if it is deal breaker and you can't get around your code without that, your project is just not well suited for humans
2017-02-08T16:06:23Z tiket: Petit_Dejeuner: i've done a fair bit of Haskell coding and it's nice and all, but lazy evaluation really bugs me. I can't reason about performance, at all.
2017-02-08T16:06:25Z aeth: s/like //
2017-02-08T16:06:28Z aeth: I didn't want to give an example
2017-02-08T16:06:30Z tiket: lisp + monads is what i want
2017-02-08T16:06:38Z tiket: shka: nice != deal breaker
2017-02-08T16:06:46Z shka: because it is so complex, you are unable to maintain it in your head
2017-02-08T16:06:46Z tiket: nice is just nice
2017-02-08T16:06:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: tiket: It doesn't seem that bad. You're just generating thunks until the last minute.
2017-02-08T16:06:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Right?
2017-02-08T16:06:55Z shka: ok, i agree with that
2017-02-08T16:07:11Z dlowe: tiket: you can get monads in lisp easily
2017-02-08T16:07:16Z shka: tiket: you can have monads in lisp
2017-02-08T16:07:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: tiket: "lisp + monads" You forgot lenses.
2017-02-08T16:07:18Z tiket: Petit_Dejeuner: not really, if a function have two branches...
2017-02-08T16:07:22Z jackdaniel: actually CL has monads library
2017-02-08T16:07:23Z shka: in fact, you can have monads in C++
2017-02-08T16:07:32Z shka: or even JS xD
2017-02-08T16:07:33Z tiket: yes, i've seen monad macros in lisp
2017-02-08T16:07:42Z tiket: it just works more smoothly in haskell
2017-02-08T16:07:52Z tiket: the do syntax does wonders too
2017-02-08T16:07:56Z malice`: tiket: you just don't need monads that much nin CL really
2017-02-08T16:08:12Z jackdaniel: shoe-horning foreign concepts into other languages usually isn't very smooth
2017-02-08T16:08:25Z tiket: jackdaniel: foreign concept?
2017-02-08T16:08:32Z aeth: I like the mostly functional CL style where you can essentially work with side effects in the main program from very small, simple functions, either functional or almost equivalent to the functional (e.g. map-into is a good example of the latter)
2017-02-08T16:08:36Z tiket: it's a way to get purety in any language
2017-02-08T16:08:45Z jackdaniel: define purety
2017-02-08T16:08:53Z tiket: like i had to define free? no thanks
2017-02-08T16:09:01Z tiket: learn basics by yourself
2017-02-08T16:09:10Z jackdaniel: monads aren't first-class citizens in lisp world, hence are foreing concept
2017-02-08T16:09:13Z travv0: *purity
2017-02-08T16:09:22Z tiket: travv0: indeed
2017-02-08T16:09:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: jackdaniel: no or extremely limited io and variable update operations
2017-02-08T16:09:30Z tiket: jackdaniel: did you miss "i want" lisp + monads
2017-02-08T16:09:52Z aeth: Most of my non-historical-reasons (seriously why do elt and nth have different argument orders) problems with CL are with types, data structures, etc.
2017-02-08T16:09:55Z jackdaniel: no I didn't – that's why I have pointed that there is lisp + monads
2017-02-08T16:10:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: jackdaniel: They're as first class as any other object in lisp.
2017-02-08T16:10:07Z tiket: jackdaniel: you should learn to read
2017-02-08T16:10:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: But the stdlib doesn't play well with them.
2017-02-08T16:10:17Z Xach_: tiket: That is not appropriate behavior for this channel.
2017-02-08T16:10:18Z tiket: Petit_Dejeuner: exactly the point
2017-02-08T16:10:40Z Xach_: tiket: If you would prefer to be rude, try another channel or mailing list.
2017-02-08T16:10:41Z malice`: tiket: why would you want purity?
2017-02-08T16:10:48Z malice`: purity means "constrained"
2017-02-08T16:10:53Z tiket: Xach_: fuck off, fucktwat
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2017-02-08T16:10:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: uh
2017-02-08T16:11:01Z tiket: malice`: as in no side effects
2017-02-08T16:11:08Z tiket: anyhoo, time for lunch
2017-02-08T16:11:11Z Xach_ quit (Changing host)
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2017-02-08T16:11:12Z tiket: lata dudos
2017-02-08T16:11:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: malice`: same reason to name things const
2017-02-08T16:11:14Z tiket quit (Quit: leaving)
2017-02-08T16:11:14Z ChanServ has set mode +o Xach_
2017-02-08T16:11:20Z jackdaniel: tiket: being that way doesn't make you look cool or something
2017-02-08T16:11:22Z aeth: Xach_ should kickban tiket from Quicklisp :-p
2017-02-08T16:11:32Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving)
2017-02-08T16:11:40Z jackdaniel: s/something/anything/
2017-02-08T16:11:58Z Xach_ has set mode +b *!*sr@unaffiliated/lisper
2017-02-08T16:12:01Z malice`: why ban?
2017-02-08T16:12:13Z Xach_ has set mode -o Xach_
2017-02-08T16:12:25Z malice`: Petit_Dejeuner: I'm not convinced.
2017-02-08T16:12:28Z Xach_: Unwelcome behavior.
2017-02-08T16:12:46Z malice`: I'd educate instead of ban.
2017-02-08T16:13:01Z Petit_Dejeuner assumes it was a temp ban.
2017-02-08T16:13:06Z malice`: Petit_Dejeuner: I might be wrong, but from what I've seen monads help you to kind of "emulate" state.
2017-02-08T16:13:24Z malice`: actually they provide syntax sugar for the state that you might pass behind the scenes
2017-02-08T16:13:25Z Xach_: malice`: Feel free to educate via private messages
2017-02-08T16:13:45Z malice`: oh
2017-02-08T16:13:47Z aeth: malice`: I'm assuming it's because tiket quit before being kicked to try to avoid any punishment
2017-02-08T16:13:50Z malice`: Xach_: I didn't see the insult, my bad
2017-02-08T16:13:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: malice`: When code is functionally pure it's easier to reason about because it will always do the same thing given the same inputs.
2017-02-08T16:14:15Z malice`: Petit_Dejeuner: yes, I agree that's neat property of functional langs that would sometimes be useful in CL
2017-02-08T16:14:17Z aeth: malice`: And generally when you kick on IRC you also ban, at least for a while, because a lot of clients auto-rejoin
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2017-02-08T16:14:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: In Haskell (iirc), the IO Monad is a special monad that main has defined as its return type.
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2017-02-08T16:14:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's impossible to do state without the IO Monad, but it's useless if it isn't in main. (iirc)
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2017-02-08T16:15:02Z malice`: Petit_Dejeuner: anyway, I believe it comes down to the specific problem and preference. Each brain works differently
2017-02-08T16:15:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: Or is chained to the main monad.
2017-02-08T16:15:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: malice`: But that answer isn't satisfying because it implies all things are equal.
2017-02-08T16:15:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: And it doesn't guide our behavior in anyway.
2017-02-08T16:16:49Z aeth: malice`: Personally, I'd say it's more about specific problems than brain preferences
2017-02-08T16:17:14Z aeth: Some problems express themselves very, very easily a certain way, and Common Lisp can handle most of them out of the box.
2017-02-08T16:17:38Z aeth: Compare this to a dogmatic language like Java or, yes, Haskell.
2017-02-08T16:17:49Z malice`: Petit_Dejeuner: well, that's how the life is
2017-02-08T16:18:20Z malice`: Petit_Dejeuner: I agree it's not a good answer, but it would require a broad discussion to get a somewhat satisfying answer and we wouldn't all agree that it's satisfying
2017-02-08T16:19:56Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: You can easilly write functionally pure functions and data structures in CL, you just can't mark them as pure. I think that's where the real problem with a FP language vs CL is
2017-02-08T16:20:09Z ogamita: Monads are first class objects in Common Lisp (they're even CLOS instances!).
2017-02-08T16:20:18Z ogamita: Only they're known under the name method-combination.
2017-02-08T16:20:32Z aeth: I can (declaim (inline foo)) if it's a very trivial pure function and hope the CL compiler is somewhat smart with it, but I can't (declaim (pure foo)) and permit the compiler to be *very* smart with it.
2017-02-08T16:21:33Z ogamita: aeth: (declaim (declaration purely-functional)) (defun fact (x) (declare purely-functional) (if (< x 1) 1 (* x (fact (- x 1)))))
2017-02-08T16:21:42Z aeth: ogamita: that's a declaration?
2017-02-08T16:21:46Z ogamita: aeth: then you can process this declarations with your tools as you wish.
2017-02-08T16:22:00Z ogamita: aeth: you can declare your own declarations!
2017-02-08T16:22:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: ogamita: "known under the name method-combination" huh, I hadn't thought of that
2017-02-08T16:22:27Z aeth: ogamita: yeah but my own tools will never be as good as the compiler's tools because type-aware compiler macros never passed into CL even though iirc they were proposed
2017-02-08T16:22:40Z aeth: Really, quite a few problems go back to that.
2017-02-08T16:23:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: Just use some m4 macros at the start to do some preprocessing.
2017-02-08T16:23:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍ　Ｓｏｌｖｅｄ
2017-02-08T16:24:05Z ogamita: aeth: I fail to see the relationship between types and purely functional.
2017-02-08T16:24:50Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess method combination is kind of limited for a monad since it only works with methods.
2017-02-08T16:25:40Z ogamita: You can wrap all the CL functions into generic functions, and therefore work only with methods.
2017-02-08T16:26:43Z aeth: ogamita: One reason why you'd want a type-aware compiler to handle purely functional programming: If the CL compiler were aware that the x in (fact x) was small enough such that all of the numbers stayed as a fixnum, it could use faster arithmetic rather than generic * and -
2017-02-08T16:26:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: Not a problem with cl21.
2017-02-08T16:26:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: Monads baked right in./
2017-02-08T16:27:19Z ogamita: aeth: but this is unrelated to monads.  sbcl already does this!
2017-02-08T16:27:45Z aeth: ogamita: probably only if you (declaim (inline fact))
2017-02-08T16:27:55Z malice`: aeth: compiler-macro ?
2017-02-08T16:28:13Z malice`: aeth: besides, doesn't Alexandria do exactly what you say?
2017-02-08T16:28:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: "compiler-macro" This is an extremely confusing name.
2017-02-08T16:29:47Z aeth: anyway, I'll change my argument
2017-02-08T16:30:56Z aeth: I think the main reason why you'd want the CL compiler to know that something is pure is so built-ins like map can be more optimized
2017-02-08T16:31:44Z aeth: Implementations could even potentially e.g. use map on multiple threads if that would improve performance.
2017-02-08T16:32:29Z ogamita: In any case, the standard doesn't prevent you to write such a compiler!  Not only users can declare declarations, but compiler writers can do that too! (if you're not able to determine that a function is purely functional yourself…)
2017-02-08T16:32:36Z ogamita: So go write a compiler! ;-)
2017-02-08T16:32:43Z jackdaniel: (proclamation function-lambda-expression (function) (values list gen-bool t) :pure) <- example of ECL proclamation in compiler
2017-02-08T16:32:51Z ogamita: For example, you could write a CL compiler in Haskell.
2017-02-08T16:32:56Z aeth: ogamita: I think if people had settled on a RISC instead of x86_64, more people would go write compilers.
2017-02-08T16:33:08Z ogamita: Granted. 680x0 was RISC.
2017-02-08T16:33:37Z ogamita: (compared to PowerPC for example, even more so compared to Intel).
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2017-02-08T16:42:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: Just gotta compile it to C.
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2017-02-08T16:45:46Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: C is not a suitable compiler target
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2017-02-08T16:48:46Z aeth: Usually new compilers target LLVM instead
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2017-02-08T18:43:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I saw an interesting paper by a schemer about reusing the macroexpander to do typechecking. You probably could do something similar in CL by writing a little embedded statically typed language that macroexpands to a tagbody or something that only runs typechecks at its entrypoint
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2017-02-08T18:45:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might even be able to compile the resulting code with safety 0, if your type system were good enough
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2017-02-08T19:19:04Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, yes, in theory you can efficiently compile to CL in many different ways unless you need to rely on things where CL's type system is more of a liability than a benefit like all those low level C hacks that rely on bit hacks, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_inverse_square_root
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2017-02-08T19:20:39Z aeth: Or if you wanted a mixed-type upgraded array where e.g. evens are single-flots and odds are (unsigned-byte 32)s (probably better done as a Lisp struct with two elements, the first as single-float and the second as (unsigned-byte 32), but still wouldn't be upgraded)
2017-02-08T19:21:11Z Younder: Computers today are so fast Lisp just fles. many people use Python for a development language. And tat is 200 times slower.
2017-02-08T19:21:15Z aeth: I suppose memory management would be the third. Other than those three, CL can be a target for quite a few things.
2017-02-08T19:21:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: Isn't that square root method invoking UB in C?
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2017-02-08T19:21:58Z aeth: It might be a case of reliable undefined behavior, like a lot of C hacks like that
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2017-02-08T19:22:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sure, but that kind of thing has a way of breaking
2017-02-08T19:22:21Z Younder: Lisp isn't all that reliable either.
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2017-02-08T19:22:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like OpenSSL's attempt to generate entropy by reading uninitialized memory
2017-02-08T19:22:38Z aeth: I don't think e.g. you'd be able to find undefined behavior to portably abuse on SBCL, CCL, and ECL.
2017-02-08T19:22:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: (which has other problems)
2017-02-08T19:23:00Z aeth: Unitialized memory is another thing that's common, yes
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2017-02-08T19:23:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: There was also a recent case where GCC optimizations broke a bunch of code because they changed the way they handed some kind of undefined behavior
2017-02-08T19:23:37Z aeth: Anyway, I'd view the first category as "we have > 1 GHz CPUs with much better IPC now so let's not even bother" when it's done for performance and "????????" when it's done for things like entropy
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2017-02-08T19:23:55Z aeth: The main issue I'd see is the second category
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2017-02-08T19:24:53Z Younder: aeth, That is because no-one has bothered, not because it isn't there. Security through obscurity is not a accepted approach.
2017-02-08T19:25:42Z aeth: I'm not sure if tagbody+go would be superior in performance to structured programming in CL, though. e.g. Will a good compiler know to stack-allocate things that can be trivially stack-allocated in native CL?
2017-02-08T19:26:13Z azrazalea: I'd be curious where you think lisp is unreliable Younder. An argument that "this is probably there despite someone not finding it because I think so" isn't any better an argument than security through obscurity.
2017-02-08T19:26:13Z aeth: e.g. a small upgraded simple-array (e.g. single-float) that will never leave the function
2017-02-08T19:26:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: My point was that the tagbody could be your compiler target
2017-02-08T19:26:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Using things like the fact that Call is equivalent to a jump in pure code
2017-02-08T19:27:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you wrote a small embedded statically typed language as a macro, you could typecheck and optimize and expansion time, and then output something like a jump table that implements your logic
2017-02-08T19:27:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or some kind of state machien
2017-02-08T19:28:13Z PuercoPop: aeth: IIUC you can already declare a function to be pure (foldable) in SBCL with defknown (check src/compiler/fun-info.lisp). It doesn't affect map though
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2017-02-08T19:28:35Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, but if you have an inner loop where you stack allocate several small upgraded vectors (let's just say size 2, 3, or 4 single-float), you could easily run out of space with not that many iterations... but if you put it in a let statement within some iteration form (probably even within tagbody+go, since the do macro ultimately becomes that in a lot of implementations) it can stack-allocate the vectors
2017-02-08T19:28:54Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: and you'd want to do that so you don't have to have variables like x1 x2 x3 y1 y2 y3 z1 z2 z3
2017-02-08T19:29:38Z Younder: azrazalea, I am no saying it is unreliable. I am saying the reliability has never been throughly tested. Ad least from cyber attack. To my, (admit tingly limited) knowlege.
2017-02-08T19:29:45Z aeth: Although, I suppose a compiler target might prefer the latter, but then you can't do things like (map-into point (lambda (x) (+ some-offset x)) point)
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2017-02-08T19:30:13Z azrazalea: Younder: agreed it hasn't been tested, I was taking your statement as saying that lisp was unreliable rather than it might be. I agree with the latter.
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2017-02-08T19:30:31Z azrazalea: So I think we are in agreement :)
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2017-02-08T19:31:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: There are definitely known attacks
2017-02-08T19:31:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, interning symbols based on arbitrary user input
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2017-02-08T19:33:53Z azrazalea: Well don't do that! ;P
2017-02-08T19:34:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, there are ways to do it accidentally, though
2017-02-08T19:34:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: JSON libraries often are problematic in this respect, for example
2017-02-08T19:34:27Z azrazalea: But yeah, every dynamic language has similar attacks to that and you have to avoid it. lisp might be particularly bad though.
2017-02-08T19:35:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm a bit surprised python doesn't have this problem, although it might be because python only interns small strings
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2017-02-08T19:44:48Z Younder: Anyone heard of a 'venetian blind attack'?
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2017-02-08T19:46:33Z Younder: Apparently it is a way to get information in UTF8 without filters knowing about it.
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2017-02-08T19:47:28Z Younder: I was subjected to one about 10 years ago. (I don't think it works anymore.) And it made me think.
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2017-02-08T19:48:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: This: https://capec.mitre.org/data/definitions/80.html
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2017-02-08T19:53:27Z aeth: Younder: Everything unpopular is insecure, e.g. desktop Linux probably has lots of low hanging fruit that Windows fixed a long time ago like https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/5r6va0/how_to_easily_trick_file_manager_users_to_execute/
2017-02-08T19:54:00Z aeth: C is an extremely insecure language, but a lot of the libraries have been hardened over time.
2017-02-08T19:54:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: The nice thing about Linux is that you can minimize your attack surface quite a bit
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2017-02-08T19:55:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like, the only GUI applications I use are stumpwm, chrome, a terminal emulator and emacs
2017-02-08T19:55:35Z aeth: The nice thing about Linux is that if you want security by obscurity, there's always something more obscure you can use. I use stumpwm, which probably isn't very secure, but which would probably have to be specifically targeted... and why? There are literally thousands of us, at most.
2017-02-08T19:56:24Z aeth: And on top of that stumpwm supports sbcl, clisp, ccl, and ecl, meaning some vulnerabilities for stumpwm+sbcl might not work on stumpwm+ccl or stumpwm+clisp
2017-02-08T19:56:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, most security errors result from things like buffer overflows which are practically irrelevant in lisp
2017-02-08T19:57:04Z aeth: (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) ; enjoy your SBCL buffer overflows
2017-02-08T19:57:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: And other languages like Haskell, Python, etc.
2017-02-08T19:57:08Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: why irrelevant?
2017-02-08T19:57:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because you have to go out of your way to cause one
2017-02-08T19:57:41Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: doesn't python interns all strings less than 1K characters?
2017-02-08T19:57:46Z fiveop: fiddlerwoaroof: pdf viewer? image viewer? mplayer (or similar)?
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2017-02-08T19:58:00Z aeth: In fact, it's not just speed 3, safety 0. I've gotten the equivalent error message of "you've messed up your SBCL images" through messing with declarations, messing with structs, and messing with packages.
2017-02-08T19:58:07Z aeth: s/images/image/
2017-02-08T19:58:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whereas in C, your standard idioms are all prone to accidental buffer overflows
2017-02-08T19:58:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: In lisp you actually have to try in order to get a buffer overflow
2017-02-08T19:59:10Z phoe: you don't have pointers in Lisp
2017-02-08T19:59:36Z phoe: not explicit ones at least
2017-02-08T20:00:08Z fiveop: But as aeth says. With the right declarations you can get pretty much the same problems.
2017-02-08T20:00:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop: yeah, but to my knowledge, I've never heard of interning causing a DOS
2017-02-08T20:00:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: (in python)
2017-02-08T20:00:49Z aeth: phoe: Pointer problems are probably the main thing you can't get in at least some implementations by using the right declarations, and afaik that's more a result of a GC than anything else.
2017-02-08T20:01:11Z phoe: I see.
2017-02-08T20:01:16Z Younder: I greee that I use obscurity too ;)
2017-02-08T20:01:19Z Younder: agree
2017-02-08T20:01:20Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: that is becacuse you can still garbage collect them (unintern)
2017-02-08T20:01:46Z PuercoPop: but in CL uninterning from the keyword package is forbbiden IIRC
2017-02-08T20:02:04Z aeth: You can get memory problems, though. e.g. (speed 3) (safety 0) no bounds checking in SBCL, or some things related to dynamic-extent (I've never run into the latter, but I have read to be careful about dynamic-extent because of that)
2017-02-08T20:02:05Z PuercoPop: I don't remember precisely, let me check the CLHS
2017-02-08T20:02:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: fiveop: sure, but that's true of anything. You can get memory safety issues in Rust if you write everything in an unsafe block. But, you'd have to be slightly crazy to do that
2017-02-08T20:02:57Z aeth: An interesting problem is if you set elements of a literal '(1 2 3) list or #(1 2 3) vector when the compiler assumed they're constants. The second time you run the program they might be '(2 3 4) or #(2 3 4)
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2017-02-08T20:04:23Z phoe: aeth: it's not an interesting problem, it's undefined and/or forbidden.
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2017-02-08T20:04:52Z Younder: SBCL certaily thinks so
2017-02-08T20:05:14Z Younder: some other compilres do no like LispWorks
2017-02-08T20:06:03Z phoe: aeth: in other words, it's not a problem, it's a bug caused by a programmer who mutated the immutable.
2017-02-08T20:06:13Z PuercoPop: hmm is uninterning a keyword forbidden due to it being a constant variable?
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2017-02-08T20:06:24Z fiveop: Here's an endless loop (in sbcl) that I accidentally produced: (declare (optimize (speed 3) (everything-else 0))) (dotimes (i 5) (declare (type (integer 0 4) i)))
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2017-02-08T20:06:55Z Younder: lol, you have to really work at it
2017-02-08T20:06:58Z Bike: lying is bad
2017-02-08T20:07:04Z phoe: ^
2017-02-08T20:07:09Z aeth: phoe: it's interesting because it's a case where idiomatic Lisp can hurt you... if one part of a large program doesn't expect mutation and another mutates
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2017-02-08T20:07:30Z aeth: phoe: fiddlerwoaroof pointed out that idiomatic C can cause problems (obviously far more common than my example in CL)
2017-02-08T20:07:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Younder I had a similar issue from much simpler code yesterday: for (x = 0; x<256; x++) { ... }
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2017-02-08T20:07:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I forgot that x was declare char
2017-02-08T20:08:01Z aeth: And the '(1 2 3) on first run becoming '(2 3 4) on the second can be hard to track down if you don't know where to look
2017-02-08T20:08:11Z |3b|: PuercoPop: uninterning doesn't depend on constantness, though watch out for package consistency rules if you load and compiled files :)
2017-02-08T20:08:13Z rpav: any compiler worth its salt these days will warn that heavily :P
2017-02-08T20:08:25Z Bike: that's actually a little bit different, since that loop is defined to not terminate
2017-02-08T20:08:34Z Younder: fiddlerwoaroof, use C++ it is much better in type safety
2017-02-08T20:09:01Z Bike: well, if it's an unsigned char, at least, i think.
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2017-02-08T20:09:45Z aeth: Younder: couldn't the same argument be used for Rust over C++?
2017-02-08T20:10:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was just trying to print out the byte layout of various things, so there wasn't really any reason to use C++
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2017-02-08T20:10:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: If I were doing something complicated, I wouldn't use a C-family language
2017-02-08T20:11:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder how many packages (proclaim '(optimize (safety 0) (speed 3))) would break
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2017-02-08T20:12:42Z Younder: aeth: Rust? C++ 2014 is a modern langauge. Mutch of the bad rep comes from MFC and the like. Bloopers of the 90's when they didn't know OOP.It is much better now.
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2017-02-08T20:14:16Z aeth: Younder: The problem is that when you have a language that has *all* of the features, and only *some* of them are safe, you have to trust everyone who is developing the project *and* all of the library authors for libraries you use to write modern, safe code.
2017-02-08T20:14:26Z aeth: Technically, CL has this problem too, but I doubt (speed 3) (safety 0) is common
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2017-02-08T20:14:45Z phoe: well, CL-PPCRE tended to corrupt heaps at some point in time
2017-02-08T20:14:50Z rpav: CL is not safe :P
2017-02-08T20:15:28Z |3b|: aeth: safety 0 is fairly common :(
2017-02-08T20:15:40Z aeth: rpav: (proclaim '(safety 3)) ; now it's safe :P
2017-02-08T20:15:44Z phoe: rpav: it can be safe
2017-02-08T20:15:46Z phoe: yes, exactly
2017-02-08T20:15:50Z rpav: aeth: that is not guaranteed to do anything
2017-02-08T20:15:50Z |3b|: some implementations need it for performance, and not everyone adds the error checking to compensate
2017-02-08T20:15:59Z phoe: rpav: it is guaranteed
2017-02-08T20:16:03Z phoe: clhs safety
2017-02-08T20:16:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm
2017-02-08T20:16:22Z phoe: "Note that code which has the optimization (safety 3), or just safety, is called safe code."
2017-02-08T20:16:26Z phoe: clhs 3.5.1.1
2017-02-08T20:16:26Z specbot: Safe and Unsafe Calls: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_eaa.htm
2017-02-08T20:16:29Z rpav: haha
2017-02-08T20:16:34Z |3b|: (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy safety 3) :)
2017-02-08T20:16:34Z rpav: ok if that's the standard you're going by
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2017-02-08T20:16:53Z phoe: rpav: well, uh
2017-02-08T20:16:58Z phoe: it's the Common Lisp standard
2017-02-08T20:17:10Z |3b|: proclaiming it doesn't prevent anyone else from proclaiming it back :(
2017-02-08T20:17:14Z |3b|: (or declaring it locally)
2017-02-08T20:17:18Z rpav: proclaiming isn't guaranteed to do _anything_
2017-02-08T20:17:29Z rpav: other than the proclamation not erroring
2017-02-08T20:17:32Z aeth: phoe: so by definition anything with (safety 3) is safe code, nice :)
2017-02-08T20:17:38Z phoe: aeth: yes, by definition
2017-02-08T20:17:51Z aeth: And since this is #lisp that's all that matters ;)
2017-02-08T20:17:55Z rpav: uhhuh
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2017-02-08T20:19:00Z phoe: wait
2017-02-08T20:19:01Z |3b|: rpav: 'safe cod4e' has some requirements for error checking, though an implementation can opt to not have 'unsafe' code
2017-02-08T20:19:15Z phoe: why can't let Lisp produce wonderful code instead?
2017-02-08T20:19:18Z phoe: (optimize (everything 3))
2017-02-08T20:19:27Z rpav: |3b|: yeah but that's equivocative drivel
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2017-02-08T20:19:35Z |3b|: what is?
2017-02-08T20:19:54Z |3b|: "undefined in unsafe code, must error in safe code" seems pretty clear
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2017-02-08T20:20:00Z rpav: |3b|: talking about whether "some C++ stuff is safe or not" then equivocating safety with "well if you proclaim it safe, it's by definition safe" is idiocy
2017-02-08T20:20:27Z |3b|: yeah, i'm only arguing the part about 'not guaranteed to do anything', since it does require some things :)
2017-02-08T20:21:35Z rpav: actually
2017-02-08T20:21:37Z Younder: aeth, how much do you trust your libraries? C++ or Lisp it ia basically the same problem.
2017-02-08T20:21:46Z |3b| assumed "safe by definition" is humor rather than drivel :)
2017-02-08T20:22:14Z rpav: |3b|: reading this page again it only seems to be dealing with the propagation of the SAFETY declaration, i'm not really seeing it having to _do_ anything
2017-02-08T20:22:41Z rpav: |3b|: this is #lisp, those are the same thing! ;)
2017-02-08T20:22:46Z |3b|: rpav: see the rest of the parent section, those say what to do in safe/unsafe code
2017-02-08T20:23:13Z |3b|: too few arguments "If this situation occurs in a safe call, an error of type program-error must be signaled; and in an unsafe call the situation has undefined consequences. ", etc
2017-02-08T20:23:19Z rpav: ah
2017-02-08T20:23:48Z rpav: there still appear to be numerous undefined situations orthogonal to safety though
2017-02-08T20:24:05Z |3b|: safety, special, declaration and notinline are the only ones that can't be ignored (unless they are meaningless due to always being true)
2017-02-08T20:24:26Z |3b|: yeah, and compiler bugs, and risky implementation extensions, etc :)
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2017-02-08T20:25:36Z Younder: In a typical app I write less than 5% of the code. (Sometimes much less) The rest is libraries.The libraries then determine the security of the app
2017-02-08T20:27:10Z Younder: You can be as god as you like. You still will depend on the code of others. C coders et al
2017-02-08T20:27:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, one question is: which languages minimize the impact of rogue libraries
2017-02-08T20:27:56Z rpav: |3b|: yeah, just blowing the stack with recursion the wrong way or over-macroexpanding can land in ldb ;/
2017-02-08T20:28:03Z _death: this is silly.. security is not necessarily determined by libraries, or languages, or code
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2017-02-08T20:28:34Z rpav: security is something entirely else
2017-02-08T20:28:37Z Younder: In a nutshell less is better
2017-02-08T20:28:51Z aeth: Younder: I think the difference between Lisp and C++ is that most of the Lisp libraries are recent and most of the C++ ones are ancient, so the former are more likely to have a modern style than the latter.
2017-02-08T20:29:00Z aeth: Note I said "I think" because I do not have the numbers to back this up
2017-02-08T20:29:17Z |3b|: _death: but like most comparisons between turing complete languages, some make t hings easier or harder :)
2017-02-08T20:29:46Z aeth: Younder: Also, Common Lisp style has changed less over time (although Lisp style in general is very different if you look at pre-CL programs)
2017-02-08T20:30:33Z aeth: rpav: I was joking
2017-02-08T20:31:01Z Younder: I'll go with less is better
2017-02-08T20:31:28Z shka: also
2017-02-08T20:31:32Z Younder: The fewer dependencies the less you have to worry about
2017-02-08T20:31:37Z shka: CL style is more uniform
2017-02-08T20:31:54Z aeth: right
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2017-02-08T20:32:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: And the CL community is much less tolerant of undefined behavior than other people are :)
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2017-02-08T20:32:34Z Younder: rotfl
2017-02-08T20:32:35Z aeth: On the other hand, I wouldn't trust a CL-native implementation of cryptography because it's likely to be an untested hobby library.
2017-02-08T20:33:02Z aeth: I also wouldn't trust calls to #'random because e.g. SBCL uses an non-secure PRNG
2017-02-08T20:33:05Z aeth: s/an/a/
2017-02-08T20:33:28Z _death: as it should
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2017-02-08T20:33:48Z Younder: I wouldn't trust one by NIS because NSA would have made it crackable.
2017-02-08T20:34:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wouldn't trust OpenSSL either :)
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2017-02-08T20:34:53Z _death: you trust openssl all the time ;)
2017-02-08T20:34:56Z aeth: Ideally, there would be serious crypto libraries written in secure, non-C languages
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2017-02-08T20:35:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think Ocaml has a fairly well-tested TLS implementation
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2017-02-08T20:35:34Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Sorry, I mean ideally we would use those implementations.
2017-02-08T20:35:52Z aeth: C and C++ should be used for performance, not for security.
2017-02-08T20:36:01Z aeth: Different languages make different tradeoffs.
2017-02-08T20:36:36Z _death: practically all TLS implementations are full of holes.. after years of discovering vuln after vuln we should come to accept that
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2017-02-08T20:37:18Z aeth: And if there's a safe subset of C++ (there probably is by now), and someone wants to use that for security-critical things, that should imo be turned into its own language. Sort of a C++--
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2017-02-08T20:37:45Z _death: and seriously, what is the percentage of users that check each and every certificate authority they trust
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2017-02-08T20:39:05Z aeth: _death: I think percentage is the wrong way to measure it because floating point isn't that good for numbers very close to 0 iirc
2017-02-08T20:40:03Z Younder: It's still in the lib, not the lang
2017-02-08T20:40:37Z _death: you can sandbox all your code
2017-02-08T20:40:55Z aeth: I should be using a sandbox for Steam.
2017-02-08T20:41:23Z aeth: I use a handful of applications, all very secure, on a distro with selinux enabled. And then I also play random games on Steam that were on sale, completely eliminating all security I have.
2017-02-08T20:41:27Z Younder: Have you ever studied just how much junk gets thrown in?
2017-02-08T20:41:54Z Younder: Sandbox, yes, that is a plan.
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2017-02-08T20:42:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: just think of it as fuzz testing
2017-02-08T20:42:29Z aeth: I suppose the issue with sandboxing mixed with a language like CL is now you've just eaten up all your RAM and storage.
2017-02-08T20:42:39Z _death: it's always a cat and mouse game, and if you're targeted by someone powerful enough, you lose
2017-02-08T20:42:41Z Bike: tests are more useful when you know they've failed immediately
2017-02-08T20:42:52Z _death: (the cat always wins)
2017-02-08T20:43:14Z Younder: I think of it as a union layer after layer
2017-02-08T20:43:16Z Bike: i can't believe tom and jerry would lie to me like this
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2017-02-08T20:43:39Z Younder: rotfl
2017-02-08T20:43:43Z shka: haha
2017-02-08T20:43:47Z shka: good one :-)
2017-02-08T20:44:16Z aeth: Suppose there's a CL emacs that's finally mature enough to replace GNU Emacs + SLIME, and it uses a port of SLIME, with swank, and the user is running it on stumpwm, and all three use SBCL. Now there's three SBCLs running with almost 100 MB in RAM each just for SBCL itself.
2017-02-08T20:44:19Z _death: Bike: that's just because it's still ongoing.. you know what happens in the final episode right?
2017-02-08T20:44:28Z pjb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-08T20:44:31Z Bike: nasty
2017-02-08T20:44:33Z aeth: Now add a naive sandboxing and there are three SBCLs installed on the system, one for each application. Possibly more.
2017-02-08T20:44:56Z PuercoPop: hmm It appears I was misrembering about not being able to unintern symbols from the keyword package portably
2017-02-08T20:45:04Z PuercoPop: |3b|: thanks
2017-02-08T20:45:13Z dlowe: aeth: that's almost 1.6% of my ram. how terrible.
2017-02-08T20:45:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I doubt it would compare to a web brwoser
2017-02-08T20:45:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I have memory issues, I close all the tabs I have open and, if that doesn't help, restart chrome
2017-02-08T20:45:57Z Younder: OS segmentation works. It is not a programming problem. Not entirely and not anymore.
2017-02-08T20:46:46Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I use Firefox, and I never close tabs that I want to leave up... I just set it to save my tabs, and then close and reopen Firefox if it's an issue. Firefox treats tabs lazily, and will only open saved tabs the first time you visit them in a session
2017-02-08T20:46:54Z Younder: Lot's of virtual machines
2017-02-08T20:47:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I gave up on FF a long time ago
2017-02-08T20:47:18Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Unfortunately, Firefox killed off tab groups and now the tab groups extension that replaced it might not have a future, making it much more difficult to use this in my workflow
2017-02-08T20:47:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's better now, but I still find it's gets sluggish and is a hassle to use
2017-02-08T20:47:34Z Younder: Chromium with blink myself
2017-02-08T20:47:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: The only time I use it is when I have to connect to a BMC that still uses obsolete SSL
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2017-02-08T20:47:51Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: but I say all of this to say that Firefox would *still* have more RAM than three SBCLs
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2017-02-08T20:48:48Z aeth: Right now my firefox is at 864M, my sbcl is at 97M, my emacs is at 88M (wow you don't lose that much RAM by moving it to SBCL), and my stumpwm is 65M (for some reason, sometimes it's much lower than the expected 90ish, I wonder why)
2017-02-08T20:49:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Emacs sometimes competes with Chrome for memory usage
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2017-02-08T20:49:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: I recently had an erc session running for something like three weeks, with a bunch of channels open
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2017-02-08T20:49:41Z shka: The process firefox (with pid 1729) is using approximately 1.6 GB of memory.
2017-02-08T20:49:43Z shka: well
2017-02-08T20:49:53Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: that's why they called it Eight Megabytes and Constantly Swapping... except it's bloated 10x since the joke!
2017-02-08T20:50:09Z shka: The process emacs (with pid 8764) is using approximately 464.7 MB of memory.
2017-02-08T20:50:11Z shka: ehem
2017-02-08T20:50:27Z aeth: I don't persist my emacs. No memory leaks and fewer bugs that way. :-p
2017-02-08T20:50:33Z aeth: I guess it has a memory leak of some sort?
2017-02-08T20:50:46Z shka: honestly i don't know
2017-02-08T20:50:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have an emacs process using 1.1G
2017-02-08T20:51:13Z shka: but it is running non stop for two weeks so it is ok
2017-02-08T20:51:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's mostly just maintain 64 buffers worth of backlogs
2017-02-08T20:51:26Z shka: and has tons of buffers
2017-02-08T20:51:38Z shka: besides i have 32 gb of ram
2017-02-08T20:51:46Z shka: so i can be wasteful here and there
2017-02-08T20:51:59Z aeth: I currently use irssi on a raspberry pi... when I can get a RISC V home server and a RISC V CL implementation, I'll switch to using CL for IRC, assuming enough RAM on the initial RISC Vs (should be doable, would only need 200ish MB to be safe)
2017-02-08T20:52:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: I need to upgrade my desktop
2017-02-08T20:52:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Running 16G of RAM on a motherboard that only officially supports 8
2017-02-08T20:52:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm sort of holding off until Zen lands
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2017-02-08T20:53:04Z aeth: I double RAM every time I upgrade, I was at 8 GB on my 2010 desktop, now I'm on 16 GB on my 2015 desktop. I suppose I'll move to 32 GB DDR4 when Intel gives me a reason to upgrade from my i7-4790k, but who knows when that will be.
2017-02-08T20:53:23Z aeth: I don't need to, though. I would sometimes run into limits with 8 GB, but I don't think I have with 16 and I'm normally under 2 GB
2017-02-08T20:54:04Z aeth: But I would never run IRC on this desktop machine. Too noisy and power consuming. IRC should be run on the thing that consumes the least power that still supports a decent IRC program (which for me now would require CL)
2017-02-08T20:54:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have four servers under my desk: two with 32G, An old SPARC with 8G and one with 48G of ram
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2017-02-08T20:54:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I don't really have any shortage of RAM
2017-02-08T20:54:51Z fiddlerwoaroof:  
2017-02-08T20:54:59Z aeth: Sounds like that takes up a lot of space. I have a full tower under my desk... barely fits and basically takes up all the space when it's turned sideways
2017-02-08T20:55:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I'm collecting parts to build a rack
2017-02-08T20:56:20Z aeth: My next desktop build might be a mini-ITX. Small is good.
2017-02-08T20:56:24Z shka: eh, you know that you are on freenode when people have sparc server stack under desks :-)
2017-02-08T20:56:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: My goal is to eventually get a power system
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2017-02-08T20:57:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ideally power8, but I'm a bit flexible
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2017-02-08T20:57:32Z aeth: I will probably wind up collecting RISC V systems when they're out, especially because they'll be small and low power.
2017-02-08T20:57:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: And Alpha/PA-RISC
2017-02-08T20:58:06Z aeth: RISC is the future. Any day now.
2017-02-08T20:58:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'll believe it when I see it
2017-02-08T20:58:38Z aeth: I'd love to see a RISC V so I can learn it and find a CL I can port to it.
2017-02-08T20:58:54Z aeth: Right now they're all microcontrollers... not a good fit for CL
2017-02-08T20:59:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Intel has buried all sorts of promising architectures
2017-02-08T20:59:16Z _death: the other day I skimmed Bellard's riscv emulator.. nice and relatively simple :)
2017-02-08T21:00:12Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Intel is running into limits now and the improvements aren't really that great. That's terrible, but at least there's a chance it opens the door to new architectures catching up with Intel-level performance.
2017-02-08T21:00:32Z aeth: If Intel is improving 10% or 15% a year (if that) instead of 200% it's a much slower moving target to catch
2017-02-08T21:01:24Z aeth: oh sorry, messed up the math on that
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2017-02-08T21:05:50Z aeth: Moore's law is transistor density doubling every two years, which used to translate almost directly into performance. So double Intel performance in two years would be (sqrt 2) => 1.4142135 times performance every year?
2017-02-08T21:06:19Z aeth: That's getting fairly far off topic from CL's memory usage, though
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2017-02-08T21:12:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: CL's memory usage doesn't even begin to compare to the memory usage of a PHP or JS development environment
2017-02-08T21:13:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: I once had to use something like 16G just to get composer to finish dependency resolution.
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2017-02-08T21:15:00Z aeth: I think the difference (with more than just those two languages) is that several CL implementations are efficient enough in performance that you can consider deploying CL to end users, which you're (probably) only going to do with JS if it's bundled with a web browser. So CL is not just for server usage.
2017-02-08T21:15:37Z aeth: And not just as small Linux distro scripts.
2017-02-08T21:16:00Z aeth: Imo, CL competes with Java more than it does with PHP or JS.
2017-02-08T21:16:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah although, for some reason, the JS community is hellbent on rewriting everything in JS
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2017-02-08T21:17:17Z aeth: (If CL competes with Java, does this make Guy Steele a "traitor" to CL?)
2017-02-08T21:18:24Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Every sufficiently large language ecosystem is like that.
2017-02-08T21:18:29Z _death: if CL competes with Scheme, does this make Guy Steele a traitor to Scheme? :)
2017-02-08T21:18:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: but people expect endusers to use JS apps
2017-02-08T21:18:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Both on mobile and on desktop
2017-02-08T21:18:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: e.g. Slack
2017-02-08T21:18:55Z aeth: _death: I guess he's a mercenary.
2017-02-08T21:20:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: And Atom
2017-02-08T21:20:28Z aeth: _death: Or maybe he thinks it's a good thing that he brought CL users half way to Scheme.
2017-02-08T21:21:29Z _death: aeth: the lexical scopers conspired..
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2017-02-08T21:23:24Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I think it's actually a good thing that every new application is going to be yet another embedded web browser with JavaScript. I'd rather have CL be compared favorably in performance to that bloated, slow approach than unfavorably to a heavily optimized C or C++ native application.
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2017-02-08T21:26:00Z aeth: Whenever a next generation pure-CL GUI framework is ready, don't compare it unfavorably in performance to Gtk or Qt, compare it favorably in performance to Electron. https://github.com/electron/electron
2017-02-08T21:32:17Z _death: in my previous job I had to deal with nw.js.. since it's inevitable that you need to extend it (and not just write a "native plugin"), and then you need extend/compile chromium
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2017-02-08T21:33:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Sounds like a good developer experience ;)
2017-02-08T21:35:32Z _death: I'd rather M-. and get some still-Lisp sbcl internal that's easy to experiment with :)
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2017-02-08T21:36:56Z shka: seriously though
2017-02-08T21:36:57Z _death: it's really funny, because people around me didn't know C++ (they were the new kind of programmers, knew JS).. so obviously they'd pick a JS platform, right?
2017-02-08T21:37:10Z shka: who cares that much about gui performance?
2017-02-08T21:37:21Z shka: even swing works acceptable fast nowdays
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2017-02-08T21:38:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I don't know about that. Running a couple electron apps and a web browser can make a decent computer nearly unusable
2017-02-08T21:38:45Z shka: really?
2017-02-08T21:38:50Z shka: it can't be that bad
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2017-02-08T21:39:37Z shka: i once almost had to write app partly in something that is kinda like electron
2017-02-08T21:39:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's nearly as bad as the issues I had with swapping in the early 2000s
2017-02-08T21:39:51Z shka: it was called chromium embedded framework or something like that
2017-02-08T21:40:09Z shka: it was few years back
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2017-02-08T21:41:36Z shka: so either client company was a bunch of crazy folks, or electron has to be really bloated when compared to just CEF
2017-02-08T21:41:52Z shka: but again
2017-02-08T21:42:15Z shka: it is supposed to use node.js
2017-02-08T21:42:27Z aeth: shka: Fast applications to the point of doing things almost instantly just feel so much better to use... that's why SSDs are so popular.
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2017-02-08T21:42:40Z aeth: SSDs won't fix a poor application architecture built on a slow language, though.
2017-02-08T21:42:47Z shka: aeth: yeah, i agree with you on that
2017-02-08T21:43:00Z shka: but almost every application is like this now
2017-02-08T21:43:04Z shka: anyway
2017-02-08T21:43:12Z shka: why this electron stuff is using node?
2017-02-08T21:43:25Z shka: node is supposed to be server side JS, right?
2017-02-08T21:43:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Everything in JS revolves around node these days
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2017-02-08T21:43:50Z shka: whats the point to use server on something that is supposed to be desktop application?
2017-02-08T21:43:59Z aeth: shka: Almost all applications are fast, but applications that single-threaded 100% my i7-4790k CPU are using either JS or Python ime.
2017-02-08T21:44:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: shka: It's not just a server, it's mostly just a js runtime
2017-02-08T21:44:13Z shka: stand alone desktop application i guess
2017-02-08T21:44:17Z _death: shka: node just exposes stuff you'd expect from a general purpose language
2017-02-08T21:44:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: The odd thing is that my current PC is probably a couple thousand times better than my first PC (a Pentium 90) but, I don't think the perceived performance of my computer has ever changed very much
2017-02-08T21:44:35Z shka: aaah, i misunderstood it then
2017-02-08T21:44:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/better/faster/
2017-02-08T21:44:56Z shka: fiddlerwoaroof: now compare that to amiga :D
2017-02-08T21:45:09Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: do you use a SSD?
2017-02-08T21:45:14Z _death: without it, javascript would've remained confined to frontends..
2017-02-08T21:46:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: yep
2017-02-08T21:46:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is true both of my desktop and my 2015 Macbook Pro
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2017-02-08T21:46:42Z shka: _death: i'm under impression that it would be better this way
2017-02-08T21:46:56Z _death: shka: :)
2017-02-08T21:47:09Z shka: node.js web development stack is just pure insanity
2017-02-08T21:47:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: Another thing that's nearly always been the case is that I've had <5G free on my hard disk
2017-02-08T21:47:23Z aeth: Oh, and if something 100%s my i7-4790k single-threaded, it probably 100%s every other CPU out there, except for possibly the handful of newer i7s with faster single-core performance. So most people's experiences will be equivalent or worse than mine with those applications.
2017-02-08T21:48:16Z aeth: on this benchmark the 4790k is 3rd, apparently. https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html
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2017-02-08T21:49:03Z aeth: It's not just that JS is a bad language, though. It's that the median JS programmer is probably a bad programmer (probably because they just started).
2017-02-08T21:50:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: What really should happen is that companies should either test their software on 10 year old desktop computers or force their developers to use such machines, at least occasionally :)
2017-02-08T21:50:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: or both
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2017-02-08T21:51:04Z aeth: No, they should just get everyone an i7-7700k or i7-4790k and then we won't care as much about their slow single-threaded applications
2017-02-08T21:51:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is that developers often have the mentality that "when my app is running, the user won't want to be doing anything else"
2017-02-08T21:51:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is only true for some kinds of games
2017-02-08T21:52:06Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: not even
2017-02-08T21:52:26Z shka: ouch
2017-02-08T21:52:28Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: some people have YouTube up while they game for music or lectures or whatever
2017-02-08T21:52:39Z shka: top listed AMD CPU?
2017-02-08T21:52:45Z shka: 300
2017-02-08T21:52:49Z shka: AMD PRO A6-9500
2017-02-08T21:52:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, if you force developers to use old machines, newer machines will have plenty of room for their apps :)
2017-02-08T21:52:57Z shka: that's kinda sad
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2017-02-08T21:53:21Z aeth: shka: AMD assumed everyone would make their application run parallel.
2017-02-08T21:53:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: From what I've read, AMD's been hobbled by the Bulldozer architecture and a bet that single-threaded performance wouldn't matter
2017-02-08T21:53:30Z aeth: You can't even do that in the browser for a web application, can you?
2017-02-08T21:53:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Zen supposedly competes more evenly with Intel and it should be landing in a couple weeks
2017-02-08T21:54:02Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: It's worse than that, though. Bulldozer was only good at multi-threaded *integer* performance, and the stuff you tend to want to be high performance usually uses single-float or double-float
2017-02-08T21:54:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, that's what GPUs are for
2017-02-08T21:54:21Z aeth: Not always.
2017-02-08T21:54:28Z shka: double float on gpu?
2017-02-08T21:54:29Z shka: nope
2017-02-08T21:55:20Z shka: fiddlerwoaroof: you are not gonna have good 64 bit floating point performance on consumer GPU
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2017-02-08T21:55:32Z aeth: Nvidia sees double-float as a premium compute feature, and so only gives single-float acceptable performance on GeForce GPUs... What's worse is that their half-float on recent GeForces performs significantly worse than single-float.
2017-02-08T21:55:33Z shka: consumer -> not Tesla or something like that
2017-02-08T21:55:53Z shka: aeth: it is not actually "premium"
2017-02-08T21:55:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was mostly joking.
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2017-02-08T21:56:16Z aeth: shka: It is a premium feature, buy a Quadro or a Tesla for lots more $$$ for your double-float CUDA needs
2017-02-08T21:56:19Z |3b|: AMD does decent doubles and halfs on GPU
2017-02-08T21:56:20Z aeth: (Or use OpenCL!)
2017-02-08T21:56:21Z shka: it is just the fact that consumer GPUs are supposed to be used for real time rendering
2017-02-08T21:56:49Z aeth: shka: which is nonsense because nvidia also has something called PhysX, for, well, GPU physics.
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2017-02-08T21:57:01Z aeth: So even nvidia admits that consumers might want to do non-rendering stuff
2017-02-08T21:57:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've always used AMD/ATI GPUs because I don't want to mess with proprietary drivers
2017-02-08T21:57:06Z shka: also mostly used for real time
2017-02-08T21:57:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: Right now I have a Radeon HD 6950 that a friend gave me
2017-02-08T21:57:35Z shka: aeth: man, this is mostly to do realistic animation of Geralt's hairs in Witcher 3
2017-02-08T21:57:47Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I'd love to use an AMD GPU, but first they'd need to compete on the high end.
2017-02-08T21:58:15Z shka: people won't notice if pixel has up to 5% wrong color for 1/60 of second
2017-02-08T21:58:35Z shka: that's why nvidia does not care about double floats on consumer grade cpus
2017-02-08T21:58:49Z aeth: shka: I actually notice hair and clothing mistakes in AAA games!
2017-02-08T21:59:05Z aeth: shka: Usually it's more like "this hair clips through his head on an otherwise photorealistic rendering" not "wrong color"
2017-02-08T21:59:14Z aeth: Very uncanny valley
2017-02-08T21:59:56Z shka: true, but rendering things with cinema quality is still not doable in real time
2017-02-08T22:00:02Z aeth: And if they didn't want me to notice the hair mistakes, they shouldn't have put so much of a budget in the hair and call attention to it.
2017-02-08T22:00:15Z aeth: I only notice hair mistakes when the game tries to do realistic hair
2017-02-08T22:00:29Z shka: that's why Max Payne was bald!
2017-02-08T22:00:32Z shka: GENIUS!
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2017-02-08T22:00:53Z shka: but then, we need to have realistic skull glare
2017-02-08T22:01:00Z shka: ok, enough of this offtopic
2017-02-08T22:01:02Z shka: good night
2017-02-08T22:01:12Z aeth: The future is imo in art styles that are both cheaper to make and don't age poorly imo, e.g. Team Fortress 2. Off-topic, though, yes.
2017-02-08T22:01:51Z aeth: I guess slightly less off-topic... the real reason why you want good floating point CPU performance is for benchmarks. :-p
2017-02-08T22:03:07Z shka: http://arrayfire.com/explaining-fp64-performance-on-gpus/
2017-02-08T22:03:09Z shka: anyway
2017-02-08T22:03:38Z shka: even on TESLA, you are getting only half of performance with 64 bit floats
2017-02-08T22:06:30Z aeth: Anyway, if your CPU problem uses single-float or double-float (in CL!) then you don't have to worry about things like not being able to use fixnum because fixnum + fixnum or fixnum * fixnum could leave fixnum.
2017-02-08T22:07:14Z aeth: i.e. you can just assume that the variable or array is always going to be the type of float you started working with
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2017-02-08T22:07:38Z aeth: and the best thing is CL will raise exceptions instead of giving you nan, inf, etc
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2017-02-08T22:08:08Z Younder: CUDA GPU's support 128, 64, 32 and 16 bit floats
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2017-02-08T22:08:53Z aeth: Younder: check out the GFLOPs on the latest GeForces though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_10_series#GeForce_10_.2810xx.29_series
2017-02-08T22:09:21Z aeth: e.g. the GeForce 1080 has 8228 single, 257 double, and 128 (!!!) half
2017-02-08T22:09:30Z Younder: 16 bit's are sufficient for a back propagation neural net with a sigmoid function (invertible)
2017-02-08T22:09:35Z quard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-08T22:10:04Z Younder: aeth, I have two Titan Black's and a Jetson TX-1
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2017-02-08T22:11:19Z Younder: The Titan X should do 12 G Flops at double precision.
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2017-02-08T22:14:12Z Younder: Thing to remember is tat the Tesla, Quadrao and titan series are designed for CUDA. The games cards are not.
2017-02-08T22:17:40Z aeth: The Titans *were* designed for CUDA. They aren't anymore.
2017-02-08T22:17:46Z aeth: They're now just overpriced, underperforming gaming cards
2017-02-08T22:18:12Z aeth: The 700-series Titans had about 1/3 double performance as single according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_700_series
2017-02-08T22:18:30Z aeth: The latest Titan X has worse double performance than those
2017-02-08T22:18:50Z aeth: The previous (900-series) generation one, too.
2017-02-08T22:19:10Z Younder: The 1080 might beet the shit out of a Titan Black in 'Call of duty', but in numerical performance in a weather simulation it is a total woz in comparison.
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2017-02-08T22:19:46Z Younder: aeth, where did you get those figures?
2017-02-08T22:21:03Z aeth: The GeForce Titan single/double is 4500/1500, GeForce Titan Black 5121/1707, GeForce Titan Z 8122/2707 (all 700-series). The GeForce Titan X (900-series) is 6144/192. And the Titan X is 10157/317
2017-02-08T22:21:07Z aeth: All from Wikipedia
2017-02-08T22:21:12Z aeth: If it's incorrect, edit it
2017-02-08T22:21:26Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_700_series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_900_series https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_10_series
2017-02-08T22:21:45Z Younder: Well I have mesured my 2 titan black at 12 G Flops
2017-02-08T22:21:51Z Younder: measured
2017-02-08T22:22:16Z aeth: strange
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2017-02-08T22:22:43Z Younder: I was running a modell of a galaxy. More spesificaly the magelian cloud
2017-02-08T22:23:18Z aeth: Etiher way, the exact numbers don't matter, it's the ratio of single/double performance that matters. The old Titans were supposed to double as gaming and compute (for people who do both). The newer two Titans apparently do not.
2017-02-08T22:23:35Z aeth: *Either
2017-02-08T22:24:35Z aeth: The newer two Titans are aimed at people who don't care at all about price/performance in gaming.
2017-02-08T22:25:01Z aeth: Younder: Do you use CUDA with CL?
2017-02-08T22:25:48Z aeth: (Oh, and I guess the newer Titans still make sense if you only use single-float)
2017-02-08T22:26:01Z Younder: No I use C. (for now)
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2017-02-08T22:36:46Z phoe: Uuuuhh. EQ/EQL/EQUAL/EQUALP/MAYBE-EQUALP processed for CLUS.
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2017-02-08T22:37:51Z aeth: maybe-equalp???
2017-02-08T22:37:59Z malice: what is maybe-equalp??
2017-02-08T22:38:58Z phoe: why? the weakest equality predicate
2017-02-08T22:39:04Z phoe: returns T for all arguments
2017-02-08T22:39:09Z phoe: because they're maybe equalp
2017-02-08T22:39:20Z phoe - way too much CLUS
2017-02-08T22:39:40Z prxq: clus?
2017-02-08T22:40:06Z phoe: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php
2017-02-08T22:40:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: clhs maybe-equalp
2017-02-08T22:40:16Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for maybe-equalp.
2017-02-08T22:40:21Z phoe: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/234693935216197634/278171719896924162/clus.pdf
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2017-02-08T22:40:50Z phoe: haha, I actually love it
2017-02-08T22:40:54Z prxq: maybe-equalp has never crossed my way
2017-02-08T22:41:10Z phoe: I think up a joke function and no one's actually sure if it maybe isn't an obscure function somewhere in the CL standard
2017-02-08T22:41:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah
2017-02-08T22:41:21Z aeth: phoe: it is in the CL standard
2017-02-08T22:41:25Z aeth: phoe: (constantly t)
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2017-02-08T22:42:38Z prxq: phoe: i actually was just wondering if it could be useful.
2017-02-08T22:43:08Z phoe: prxq: I was thinking the same thing about #'CONSTANTLY
2017-02-08T22:43:12Z prxq: (make-hash-table :test #'maybe-equal) ;; not an expected use case
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2017-02-08T22:43:40Z prxq: i've used #'constantly in the past
2017-02-08T22:43:53Z phoe: it basically returns something with 100% chance
2017-02-08T22:43:55Z _death: ALTERNATELY can also be useful..
2017-02-08T22:44:03Z phoe: yes, why not extend it
2017-02-08T22:44:13Z phoe: #'ALWAYS, #'OFTEN, #'SOMETIMES, #'
2017-02-08T22:44:18Z phoe: #'RARELY, #'SELDOM, #'NEVER
2017-02-08T22:44:36Z prxq: #'UNLIKELY-P
2017-02-08T22:45:31Z phoe: (defun constantly-constantly () (funcall #'constantly #'constantly))
2017-02-08T22:45:44Z prxq: that's art :)
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2017-02-08T22:49:47Z phoe: (typep thing (satisfies constantly))
2017-02-08T22:50:00Z phoe: woops, forgot a quote
2017-02-08T22:50:04Z phoe: (typep thing '(satisfies constantly))
2017-02-08T22:50:24Z _death: (mapcar (disjoin (apply #'alternately fizzbuzz-markers) #'identity) (iota 101 :start 1))
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2017-02-08T22:50:37Z _death: I'll remember that for my next interview!
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2017-02-08T22:50:54Z phoe: clhs disjoin
2017-02-08T22:50:54Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for disjoin.
2017-02-08T22:51:07Z phoe: _death: what's disjoin?
2017-02-08T22:51:20Z _death: phoe: check alexandria.. and for alternately, you'd have to implement :)
2017-02-08T22:52:29Z aeth: phoe: (defun sometimes (&rest arguments) (declare (ignore arguments)) (if (zerop (random 2)) t nil))
2017-02-08T22:52:39Z aeth: the other probability ones would just be variants on that with different odds
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2017-02-08T22:55:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I feel like alternately would be used to specify a value to be used if a computation failed
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2017-02-08T22:55:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: (alternately (do-something) 42)
2017-02-08T22:56:01Z _death: that's alternatively
2017-02-08T22:56:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Alternate would pick from successive sequences.
2017-02-08T22:56:16Z prxq: that's or
2017-02-08T22:56:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: or doesn't handle conditions
2017-02-08T22:56:38Z prxq: that's true.
2017-02-08T22:56:46Z _death: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338595
2017-02-08T22:56:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: It would be something like (handler-case (or foo answer) (condition answer))
2017-02-08T22:56:53Z _death: (bad indentation when pasting from repl, heh)
2017-02-08T22:57:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ug, strike the or
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2017-02-08T22:57:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: (handler-case (progn ,@body) (condition ,answer))
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2017-02-08T23:00:36Z _death: so customizable ignore-errors :)
2017-02-08T23:00:49Z _death: (which is a misnomer, as it doesn't ignore errors..)
2017-02-08T23:02:23Z prxq: ignore-errors doesn't ignore errors? In what sense?
2017-02-08T23:02:45Z _death: prxq: it just turns them into a nil return value :)
2017-02-08T23:02:58Z _death: (and returns them as second value)
2017-02-08T23:03:00Z prxq: yeah yeah yeah. You are haskell programmer, right???
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2017-02-08T23:04:34Z _death: well, think about it.. it creates a bad feeling for its user, since you're not supposed to ignore errors.. but it actually does something more useful than ignoring them
2017-02-08T23:05:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Does ignore-errors actually bypass wrapped error handlers?
2017-02-08T23:05:46Z prxq: who is it that supposes you to not ignore errors?
2017-02-08T23:06:31Z _death: prxq: you either ignore errors or ignore Best Practices(TM)
2017-02-08T23:06:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: As a rule, you should usually not use something like ignore-errors as they make debugging a pain
2017-02-08T23:06:53Z _death: prxq: (missing NOT for the first disjunct)
2017-02-08T23:07:39Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure what you mean by "wrapped error handlers", but it's similar to what you wrote.. a handler-case
2017-02-08T23:07:46Z prxq: fiddlerwoaroof: i have first hand experience in that :)
2017-02-08T23:07:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Cool
2017-02-08T23:08:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was wondering if ignore-errors did something weird like using handler-bind to suppress errors
2017-02-08T23:08:28Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: but yes, sometimes you want to just "ignore" _some_ errors.. hence alexandria:ignore-some-conditions
2017-02-08T23:08:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: I could see wrapping a whole program in ignore-errors for production use
2017-02-08T23:09:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially if the debugger is useless for people
2017-02-08T23:09:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/people/your users/
2017-02-08T23:09:34Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: well, at a minimum you want to log them at least?
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2017-02-08T23:09:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd think you'd put the logging code inside the ignore-errors
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2017-02-08T23:10:13Z phoe: (defun foo (bar baz) (sometimes (invoke-debugger)) (+ bar baz))
2017-02-08T23:10:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. (defun main () (ignore-errors (run))) and run is responsible for handling all expected errors and logging unexpected ones
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2017-02-08T23:11:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I've been debugging a cron job that tends to hang at he debugger prompt instead of just dying)
2017-02-08T23:11:03Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: so then what happens, they get a repl?... (because in script mode etc. the toplevel error handler is not a debugger, but printing of the error and exiting)
2017-02-08T23:11:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: No, you'd dump an executable with main as the toplevel
2017-02-08T23:12:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, I probably should just rebind *debugger-hook* in thing, shouldn't I
2017-02-08T23:12:36Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: --disable-debugger
2017-02-08T23:12:46Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: also check --script
2017-02-08T23:13:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm running in CCL
2017-02-08T23:13:23Z _death: I see
2017-02-08T23:13:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a bug in SBCL that I haven't had time to diagnose
2017-02-08T23:13:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, really, I need to rewrite it from scratch: the codebase is a bit unmaintainable
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2017-02-08T23:14:43Z _death: ignore-errors handles errors, but does not handle all conditions.. so you may still end up somewhere you didn't expect
2017-02-08T23:15:50Z prxq: fiddlerwoaroof: out of curiosity, is that based on an assessment of actual cost of maintainance?
2017-02-08T23:16:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not really, it's a ~200 line hobby project
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2017-02-08T23:22:34Z phoe: TIL that you don't need to provide forms other than test-form in COND for it to return a value.
2017-02-08T23:22:53Z phoe: (cond (2)) is valid
2017-02-08T23:25:18Z prxq: what was TIL again?
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2017-02-08T23:30:05Z phoe: Today I Learned
2017-02-08T23:30:21Z phoe: I mean, (cond (2 5)) ;=> 5
2017-02-08T23:30:25Z phoe: (cond (2)) ;=> 2
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2017-02-08T23:41:38Z dtornabene: phoe: interesting
2017-02-08T23:41:55Z dtornabene: phoe: (cond (5 5.0)) => 5.0
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2017-02-08T23:42:12Z Bike: if a cond branch doesn't have any forms it just returns the result of the test
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2017-02-08T23:43:04Z phoe: Bike: yes, that's what I learned
2017-02-08T23:43:07Z dtornabene: Bike: i was more suprised by the ostensible preference for the float over the int
2017-02-08T23:43:16Z phoe: dtornabene: it's not preference
2017-02-08T23:43:21Z Bike: uh what
2017-02-08T23:43:24Z phoe: COND returns the last value
2017-02-08T23:43:30Z Bike: that means (if 5 5.0 nil)
2017-02-08T23:43:30Z dtornabene: phoe: ah, thanks
2017-02-08T23:43:37Z phoe: (cond (5.0 5)) ;=> 5.0
2017-02-08T23:43:53Z phoe: there's no preference to speak of other than "I prefer the last value you feed me there"
2017-02-08T23:43:59Z phoe: uh
2017-02-08T23:43:59Z phoe: no
2017-02-08T23:44:03Z phoe: (cond (5.0 5)) ;=> 5
2017-02-08T23:44:06Z dtornabene: yeha
2017-02-08T23:44:12Z dtornabene: just tested it myself
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2017-02-08T23:45:25Z phoe: aw geez
2017-02-08T23:45:32Z phoe: \DefmacWithValues case {keyform \stardown{normal-clause} \brac{\down{otherwise-clause}}} {\starparam{result}}
2017-02-08T23:45:41Z phoe: do I want to do this tonight?... or do I want to do this tomorrow?
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2017-02-08T23:47:07Z phoe: ...tomorrow
2017-02-08T23:47:23Z phoe: time to sleep for tonight.
2017-02-08T23:47:44Z phoe pushes the commit and waves goodnight to #funcall
2017-02-08T23:47:48Z _death: there are far more esoteric tricks up CL sleeve :)
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2017-02-09T00:40:58Z malice: Can I accept keyword symbols as keyword arguments?
2017-02-09T00:41:02Z malice: If so, how?
2017-02-09T00:41:39Z malice: e.g. (defun key-acceptor (&key (k :some-keyword)) (print k)) --> (key-acceptor :k :something)
2017-02-09T00:42:03Z _death: not sure what is the issue
2017-02-09T00:42:14Z Bike: yeah just... do that
2017-02-09T00:45:40Z malice: umm
2017-02-09T00:45:57Z malice: wait, maybe there's other problem
2017-02-09T00:47:15Z malice: okay, my bad
2017-02-09T00:47:28Z malice: I forgot to provide a keyword option but thought it was related to me supplying it
2017-02-09T00:47:30Z malice: sorry :)
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2017-02-09T00:50:55Z pjb: malice: :some-keyword is the default value for the parameter k.
2017-02-09T00:51:05Z malice: yes
2017-02-09T00:51:20Z pjb: malice: you can also specify a non-keyword keyword.
2017-02-09T00:51:35Z malice: I just wrote a function with more than one keyword-argument and then forgot to actually pass it as a keyword argument and that was a problem :)
2017-02-09T00:52:01Z malice: I am kind of aware of options that you have with &key &rest and &optional
2017-02-09T00:52:56Z pjb: (defun key-acceptor (&key ((key parameter) 'default argument-given-p)) (list argument-given-p parameter))  (key-acceptor 'key 33) #| --> (t 33) |#  (key-acceptor) #| --> (nil default) |#
2017-02-09T00:55:05Z malice: pjb: why quote and nested list?
2017-02-09T00:55:42Z pjb: malice: to be able to give a non-keyword keyword parameter.
2017-02-09T00:55:46Z malice: (defun key-acceptor (&key (key parameter argument-given-p)) (list argument-given-p key))
2017-02-09T00:55:52Z malice: oh
2017-02-09T00:56:07Z malice: nice
2017-02-09T00:56:13Z malice: why is it called keyword though? :D
2017-02-09T00:56:23Z malice: I don't think that feature's useful though
2017-02-09T00:56:26Z pjb: In particular, since it's a normal symbol, it is in a given package.  Or it could be a gensym (if you generate it from a macro).  So that can give you private parameters.
2017-02-09T00:56:45Z pjb: Well, it's a non-keyword &key parameter precisely.
2017-02-09T00:56:53Z malice: :)
2017-02-09T00:57:12Z malice: I can't really imagine private keyword parameters being useful
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2017-02-09T00:58:58Z _death: I suppose if you have a plist with non-keyword keys it could be useful
2017-02-09T00:59:13Z malice: Another question: I have a SLIME in my Emacs
2017-02-09T00:59:29Z malice: and unfortunately it tries desperately to match #\( with #\), although this might be feature of smartparens.
2017-02-09T00:59:41Z malice: e.g. C-k after #\( deletes up to matching #\)
2017-02-09T00:59:44Z malice: Any idea how to fix this?
2017-02-09T01:00:31Z pjb: C-q )  to insert a parenthesis.
2017-02-09T01:00:55Z pjb: Notice that if the buffer becomes unbalanced, paredit disable itself, so you will have to re-activate it with C-1 M-x paredit-mode RET
2017-02-09T01:01:51Z malice: pjb: I do that, but I mean the C-k behaviour
2017-02-09T01:02:30Z pjb: Type C-h k C-k to know what command is bound.
2017-02-09T01:02:46Z pjb: What would you want C-k do?
2017-02-09T01:03:26Z malice: well, since #\ in CL means "the next symbol is a character"
2017-02-09T01:03:32Z malice: I would want it to treat like character
2017-02-09T01:03:50Z malice: and not try to insert matching #\) or treat it as a region
2017-02-09T01:05:24Z pjb: if it's bound to paredit-kill, the doc says: Kill a line as if with ‘kill-line’, but respecting delimiters.
2017-02-09T01:05:39Z pjb: It doesn't kill #\) it kills the whole rest of line!
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2017-02-09T01:06:49Z malice: no, I'm using smartparens. :V
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2017-02-09T01:24:42Z TruePika: meh, this is far more annoying than it should have to be
2017-02-09T01:24:55Z TruePika is trying to write a function #'STRING-TO-KEYWORD
2017-02-09T01:25:05Z TruePika: the catch is, the string is in "CamelCase"
2017-02-09T01:25:19Z TruePika: I put that in quotes because there are a number of exceptions
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2017-02-09T01:25:49Z TruePika: and trying to handle those exceptions is causing a number of problems
2017-02-09T01:26:50Z TruePika: for instance, a number of times some words are lowercase (e.g. in "DoNotStepontheGrass", "on" and "the")
2017-02-09T01:27:18Z TruePika: but a simple search for e.g. "the" then yields unintended word breaks (e.g. "scythe" -> "scy-the")
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2017-02-09T01:28:44Z TruePika: my current code for the function is nearly 100 lines long, and fails 2/16 specifically-selected test cases
2017-02-09T01:29:02Z _death: you could perform easy word segmentation, the way norvig demonstrated in a video :)
2017-02-09T01:29:08Z aeth: TruePika: CFFI:TRANSLATE-CAMELCASE-NAME
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2017-02-09T01:30:05Z TruePika: aeth: not entirely helpful, since the exceptions
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2017-02-09T01:30:18Z TruePika: e.g. (cffi:translate-camelcase-name "DoNotStepontheGrass") => DO-NOT-STEPONTHE-GRASS
2017-02-09T01:30:28Z TruePika: should be DO-NOT-STEP-ON-THE-GRASS
2017-02-09T01:30:39Z TruePika: these exceptions are the main annoyance
2017-02-09T01:31:24Z aeth: TruePika: this is what I do: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/d6d984358304507728f2dbfc59a9731251894cfb/data/shader.lisp#L32-39
2017-02-09T01:32:02Z aeth: It might not be the most efficient solution, but it works. I just take translate-camelcase-name and then work around the few exceptions that I need to that can't be worked around with :special-words
2017-02-09T01:32:07Z aeth: In my case, it's just gl_
2017-02-09T01:32:30Z TruePika: SBCL docstring doesn't explain SPECIAL-WORDS
2017-02-09T01:33:51Z aeth: foo-3d => "Foo3D", "Foo3D" => foo-3d
2017-02-09T01:34:02Z aeth: otherwise "Foo3D" produces foo-3-d
2017-02-09T01:34:16Z aeth: I think it's exactly the opposite of the problem you have, though
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2017-02-09T01:34:52Z TruePika: I might be able to reduce a chunk of the code, but I'm expanding the test case list a lot ATM
2017-02-09T01:35:48Z _death: TruePika: https://youtu.be/SO50ZE_3i5w?t=942
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2017-02-09T01:36:53Z |3b|: TruePika: i just gave up on most special cases and add a list of overrides for the ones that it gets wrong :/
2017-02-09T01:36:56Z TruePika: _death: noted
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2017-02-09T02:03:04Z _death: hah, (segment "donotsteponthegrass") => ("do" "not" "step" "on" "the" "grass")
2017-02-09T02:04:46Z TruePika: (describe 'segment)
2017-02-09T02:05:33Z _death: just simple porting of the code he shows
2017-02-09T02:05:48Z TruePika: haven't watched yet
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2017-02-09T02:06:07Z _death: (and I used cl-su-ai as a corpus, though I had to add the word "grass" because it didn't appear in that text)
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2017-02-09T02:09:36Z _death: (segment "makeamericagreatagain") => ("make" "america" "great" "again") :D
2017-02-09T02:10:47Z _death: and from that corpus it does prefer ("experts" "exchange") to the other obvious segmentation..
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2017-02-09T02:13:23Z TruePika is semi-manually going through a list of 3,897 potential test cases
2017-02-09T02:13:33Z TruePika: regex helps a lot
2017-02-09T02:14:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Awk is really useful for that kind of thing too
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2017-02-09T02:24:50Z TruePika might have figured out a way to scan the entire list a bit more easily...
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2017-02-09T02:39:25Z TruePika: meh, now I've broken things
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2017-02-09T02:48:50Z TruePika decides to just manually translate the full list, using the CFFI function as a starting point
2017-02-09T02:49:05Z TruePika: and maybe "bake" my translations into the data file
2017-02-09T02:49:42Z TruePika: though I still really want to write a function that does this
2017-02-09T02:49:57Z TruePika translates the full list into test cases for some golf
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2017-02-09T02:55:05Z contrapunctus: o/
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2017-02-09T03:26:50Z TruePika gives up for now, and just uses #'STRING-UPCASE instead of any sort of camelcase parsing
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2017-02-09T04:29:44Z aeth: hmm, it looks like I run into the sb-ext:*inline-expansion-limit* if I declaim inline too much (the error actually asks me if I'm inlining something recursive)
2017-02-09T04:32:42Z aeth: It's because I have little inlined functions for (aref foo 0) (aref foo 1) etc and then a function that uses a lot of those that is in turn inlined, that is in turn used multiple times in the functions that give the warning. I comment out the inlines for those tiny functions and it's gone.
2017-02-09T04:33:05Z Bike: huh. would have expected it to go by depth.
2017-02-09T04:33:35Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/2f7c9d2bf19c7b275ff93a6e4e7c22fbdfe48848/math/quaternion.lisp#L69-75
2017-02-09T04:33:38Z aeth: It's because of that
2017-02-09T04:33:52Z aeth: That itself is called twice in quaternion-rotation-of-vector
2017-02-09T04:34:11Z aeth: which is called 4-5 times in model.lisp, where the errors happen (but only one of the random calls per function)
2017-02-09T04:35:00Z Bike: 32*2*4, there you go then
2017-02-09T04:35:08Z Bike: you could just bump it up obvs
2017-02-09T04:35:22Z aeth: Or I could use a different thing for the arefs? Like a macro?
2017-02-09T04:35:36Z aeth: But generally I thought it was better to use inlined functions for trivial functions
2017-02-09T04:35:44Z Bike: it is, yes
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2017-02-09T04:36:19Z Bike: i'd just bump the limit, this seems legitimate to me
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2017-02-09T04:40:03Z aeth: Where do I bump it in the program?
2017-02-09T04:40:03Z |3b| probably wouldn't inline functions big enough to hit the inline limit
2017-02-09T04:41:28Z Bike: uh... not sure
2017-02-09T04:42:03Z |3b|: asdf tricks to bind it around compiling/loading your files?
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2017-02-09T04:43:12Z aeth: |3b|: unfortunately, quaternion* is probably something that needs to be inlined for performance reasons (and is probably the largest one that has to be)
2017-02-09T04:43:35Z Bike: you could also bind all eight values so you don't do a call more than once
2017-02-09T04:43:38Z aeth: Inlining my mostly-trivial quaternion functions got rid of pretty much all of my game loop allocations
2017-02-09T04:43:46Z Bike: which would get you like 64 inlines overall
2017-02-09T04:43:50Z aeth: Bike: yes, that's what I did in a previous version, I had a let statement
2017-02-09T04:43:53Z |3b|: function call is relatively small part of a function that does a lot, have you profiled?
2017-02-09T04:44:08Z |3b|: if it is for allocation that is harder to fix :/
2017-02-09T04:44:15Z Bike: i dunno if this function does a lot, it's just arithmetic
2017-02-09T04:44:22Z aeth: |3b|: I'm guessing when I inline the quaternion allocations, SBCL is smart enough to automatically (declare (dynamic-extent some-quaternion)) which does help a lot
2017-02-09T04:44:49Z |3b|: Bike: well, i guess it if has lots of layers of inlining
2017-02-09T04:44:52Z Bike: yeah i don't think sbcl knows how to dynamic extent anything that isn't a direct make-array or make-struct or whatever
2017-02-09T04:45:12Z |3b| wouldn't expect it to unless you tell it to
2017-02-09T04:45:15Z Bike: though that wouldn't matter to this
2017-02-09T04:45:31Z Bike: maybe inlining here saves boxes?
2017-02-09T04:45:50Z |3b| wouldn't expect that either with single floats on x8664
2017-02-09T04:45:59Z Bike: oh is it singles
2017-02-09T04:46:14Z Bike: tis. hum.
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2017-02-09T04:47:34Z aeth: Bike: I have two versions of most functions, some allocate into an existing vector/quaternion (usually -into!) and some allocate a fresh vector/quaternion
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2017-02-09T04:54:36Z aeth: I did rewrite some to take advantage of inlining, though, (and reduce repitition) so it looks like there is more allocations than there were
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2017-02-09T04:56:16Z aeth: I think what really got rid of most of the allocations, though, was inlining the quaternion function that makes the quaternions themselves
2017-02-09T04:56:42Z aeth: i.e. #'quaternion (if I wasn't clear)
2017-02-09T04:57:31Z Bike: yeah cos like i said http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Dynamic_002dextent-allocation "SBCL implements stack allocation for"
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2017-02-09T04:59:32Z aeth: Right, direct make-array as you said.
2017-02-09T05:01:22Z aeth: The rest of the allocations that went away were probably due to something like it not being aware of a type somewhere or something.
2017-02-09T05:02:20Z Trioxin: does anyone have a long-running program that's constantly searching the entire programming space in some fashion? I remember ray kurtzwiel once say "I could write a superintelligence in 50 lines of Lisp." Of course it would take more computational power than we have for that to be worth anything but it would still be a cool thing to have running.
2017-02-09T05:02:42Z Bike: too big, too long.
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2017-02-09T05:04:04Z aeth: If I could write a superintelligence, I could write a superintelligence in 1 line of Lisp. Mainly because if it can fit in one top-level form it can be put all on one line (but shouldn't) :-p
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2017-02-09T05:04:51Z aeth: Someone should start an International Obfuscated Common Lisp Superintelligence Contest one day.
2017-02-09T05:05:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, a superintelligence is more defined by the speed it gets an answer than whether or not it will eventually get an answer
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2017-02-09T05:05:28Z Trioxin: obfuscation/minifying wasn't the point of it
2017-02-09T05:05:32Z Bike: and an AI isn't exactly a mu recursive function so a normal thing like interleaving computation would be meh
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2017-02-09T05:07:07Z aeth: Trioxin: I've heard exactly the opposite from some people. That we have the computational power already, but we don't have the algorithms.
2017-02-09T05:07:42Z aeth: Although I guess it's not quite the opposite.
2017-02-09T05:07:51Z Bike: the blind search would take more "computational power" than we have, insofar as that means anything
2017-02-09T05:07:56Z Bike: i assume that is what was meant
2017-02-09T05:07:57Z Trioxin: aeth, that's a separate thing. what he meant was a program that's just randomly trying different arrangements of code
2017-02-09T05:08:19Z aeth: Infinite monkeys writing Shakespeare
2017-02-09T05:08:30Z Trioxin: right lol
2017-02-09T05:08:37Z PuercoPop: jasom: The following snippet from the reference of Parenscript does not match the documentation. Would this be considered a bug? (ps:ps (new (Person age shoe-size)))
2017-02-09T05:08:42Z Bike: worse, infinite monkeys trying to build the playwright from scratch
2017-02-09T05:08:43Z Trioxin: but you know.. maybe it would get lucky
2017-02-09T05:08:57Z aeth: In case anyone reading isn't familiar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem
2017-02-09T05:09:00Z Bike: and they're finite and you have to pay their food bills
2017-02-09T05:09:08Z Trioxin: sooner rather than later
2017-02-09T05:09:29Z Trioxin: like winning the cosmic lottery
2017-02-09T05:09:44Z aeth: The problem with infinite monkeys with infinite typewriters is... infinite is huge. No, larger than that. No, even bigger.
2017-02-09T05:09:50Z Bike: finding the sun out of all the stars that exist would be easier
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2017-02-09T05:11:40Z Trioxin: unless you could define some very clever fitnesses
2017-02-09T05:11:49Z Trioxin: maybe
2017-02-09T05:11:54Z aeth: Trioxin: well you could just have humans read the programs, and maybe it'd inspire someone if it's close
2017-02-09T05:12:43Z Trioxin: some autistic programmer
2017-02-09T05:13:59Z aeth: I thought of something a long time ago about just generating an infinite amount of images. You could simplify by e.g. only having it be black or white and you'd probably still get some meaningful images generated.
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2017-02-09T05:14:30Z aeth: That's an easier thing to do, and humans can visually verify things much faster.
2017-02-09T05:15:05Z Bike: you should really try that to get some perspective on "probably"
2017-02-09T05:15:05Z Trioxin: we could code something to pick out the interesting ones these days
2017-02-09T05:15:35Z Trioxin: black and white 256x256
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2017-02-09T05:15:55Z aeth: Bike: almost everything will be static noise (although humans will still see patterns in those), but you'll also find everything that can be expressed at that image size, as long as it's small enough that you can actually generate them all
2017-02-09T05:16:03Z aeth: so you'll see e.g. mickey mouse
2017-02-09T05:16:36Z Trioxin: you'll see a miniature likeness to the REAL god
2017-02-09T05:17:00Z Bike: i mean, there are, let's check the old calculator here, 10^19728 ish 256×256 black and white images
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2017-02-09T05:17:49Z Trioxin: alright 50x50
2017-02-09T05:17:50Z Bike: so you can save a lot of time by just looking for toast with christ's face in it.
2017-02-09T05:18:13Z aeth: Bike: that's why I didn't specify the image size, only the 1 and 0 color restriction
2017-02-09T05:18:23Z Bike: 50×50 is still 10^752.
2017-02-09T05:18:38Z Trioxin: meh
2017-02-09T05:18:51Z Bike: brute force search is dumb. that's why "brute" is in it.
2017-02-09T05:18:52Z Trioxin: what's the size they use for imagenet?
2017-02-09T05:19:21Z aeth: Trioxin: right, the advantage is you'd have to go so small that deep learning could handle the images! :p
2017-02-09T05:19:44Z aeth: So maybe you brute force generate the images, feed them into deep learning to eliminate noise, and then look at what you brute force generated?
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2017-02-09T05:19:50Z aeth: not sure what the point would be, though
2017-02-09T05:20:10Z Trioxin: you'd have a ton of logo ideas
2017-02-09T05:20:44Z aeth: you could also find a way to filter things that will mostly look like static ahead of time, somehow
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2017-02-09T05:21:29Z Trioxin: hmm... that might be more expensive than it's worth
2017-02-09T05:21:29Z Trioxin: the filtering
2017-02-09T05:21:32Z aeth: you'd probably be looking mostly for silhouettes
2017-02-09T05:21:41Z Trioxin: well, no.. convnet more expensive
2017-02-09T05:22:37Z Trioxin: everyone's face would be in it
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2017-02-09T05:22:56Z aeth: Bike: one advantage to the dumbest approach, though, is that it's embarassingly parallel
2017-02-09T05:23:44Z Trioxin: maybe i'll code it for fun. will have to use the fastest thing I know (Nim)
2017-02-09T05:23:45Z aeth: you don't need to just stick it in (loop for i from 0 below (* 50 50) do ...)
2017-02-09T05:24:14Z contrapunctus: Does nobody like minispec.org?
2017-02-09T05:24:16Z Bike: great, now you can go through the cosmic search space a thousand times as fast
2017-02-09T05:24:37Z contrapunctus: (seemed like a nice project, but also seems dead...)
2017-02-09T05:25:03Z Trioxin: i could get my GPU on the job
2017-02-09T05:25:19Z aeth: Bike: Possibly up to a million so you can just go 10^752 / 10^6 = 10^(752-6) = 10^746
2017-02-09T05:25:26Z aeth: hah!
2017-02-09T05:25:41Z aeth: (that's if you wanted to use a seti@home style approach)
2017-02-09T05:26:04Z Trioxin: well I'm sure I'd have it computed in my lifetime
2017-02-09T05:26:18Z Bike: no.
2017-02-09T05:26:31Z Trioxin: assuming performance gains
2017-02-09T05:26:36Z aeth: and if we can't solve the simple image problem, how can we create the Lisp program?
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2017-02-09T05:27:36Z Bike: if you did a quintillion images every attosecond it would still take 10^716 seconds to get the entire search space. it is a dumb problem.
2017-02-09T05:28:11Z Trioxin: my quantum computer will do it
2017-02-09T05:29:18Z Trioxin: how many qbits to solve it in a year?
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2017-02-09T05:30:14Z Bike: quantum computers aren't magic.
2017-02-09T05:31:05Z Trioxin: they are until I decide to understand them better
2017-02-09T05:31:16Z Bike: gross.
2017-02-09T05:31:27Z aeth: what if I use this? (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0))) /s
2017-02-09T05:31:37Z aeth: That probably shaves off trillions of years, actually
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2017-02-09T05:34:19Z Trioxin: quantum computers are very uninsteresting when you have no hope of accessing one
2017-02-09T05:34:51Z Bike: what a terrible attitude. lots of scientists can't touch anything they work with, you know.
2017-02-09T05:34:53Z Trioxin: of course you can make that statement sound really stupid with a good analogy
2017-02-09T05:36:13Z Trioxin: lets see where's that good thing
2017-02-09T05:36:20Z Trioxin: google*
2017-02-09T05:36:50Z Trioxin: http://www.quantumplayground.net/
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2017-02-09T05:44:42Z aeth: I inefficiently solved the image problem for a 2x2, btw: (let ((v (make-array 4 :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0))) (dotimes (i (* 2 2) v) (vector-push-extend (read-from-string (format nil "#*~2,'0B" i)) v)))
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2017-02-09T05:48:03Z Trioxin: nice
2017-02-09T05:48:17Z Trioxin: getting matt cutts on the phone
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2017-02-09T05:52:39Z aeth: this is how it scales: (let ((v (make-array 50 :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0))) (dotimes (i (expt 2 (* 4 4)) v) (vector-push-extend (read-from-string (format nil "#*~16,'0B" i)) v)))
2017-02-09T05:53:28Z aeth: so I'm getting (expt 2 (* 50 50)) for the 50x50 version... and (log (expt 2 (* 50 50)) 10) => 752.575
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2017-02-09T05:54:56Z aeth: If you want to run out of memory: (let ((v (make-array 50 :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0))) (dotimes (i (expt 2 (* 50 50)) v) (vector-push-extend (read-from-string (format nil "#*~2500,'0B" i)) v)))
2017-02-09T05:55:19Z aeth: There are far more efficient ways of doing it, but if Bike's right you won't avoid the (expt 2 (* 50 50)) so it won't matter
2017-02-09T05:56:12Z Bike: and i'm never wrong
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2017-02-09T05:59:03Z aeth: If you wanted to be smart with memory, you'd probably make it all one big simple-bit-vector and just make each image a subseq
2017-02-09T06:00:33Z aeth: That will limit what you can handle in RAM at once to array-dimension-limit
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2017-02-09T06:00:55Z aeth: in SBCL, 4611686018427387901
2017-02-09T06:03:40Z aeth: That's 3 bytes less than (expt 2 62) or (expt (expt 2 10) 6.2) so about 4 exbibytes of RAM.
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2017-02-09T06:10:20Z aeth: That's not enough to fit the whole thing, which would afaik require (* 2500 (expt 2 2500)) which afaik means it'd need a unit at 1024 to the (log (* 2500 (expt 2 2500)) 1024) => 251.12877
2017-02-09T06:11:06Z aeth: the name for the unit of (expt 1024 251) bytes hasn't been invented yet, afaik.
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2017-02-09T06:13:37Z Bike: doesn't come up much
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2017-02-09T06:15:04Z aeth: If I modelled it right, though, 6x6 does fit in contemporary RAM with just (* 6 6 (expt 2 (* 6 6))) bytes required so (/ (* 6 6 (expt 2 (* 6 6))) (expt 1024 4d0)) => 2.25d0 TB
2017-02-09T06:15:34Z aeth: and (/ (* 5 5 (expt 2 (* 5 5))) (expt 1024 3d0)) => 0.78125d0 GB
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2017-02-09T06:18:32Z aeth: so I guess stick to 5x5, which is much closer to what my intuition thought (it doesn't look like I actually named any numbers, I too was afraid of Bike to do that)
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2017-02-09T06:19:53Z smokeink: is it possible to "hook" at higher level and make a restart that's triggered inside a form execute it's original code + some more ?
2017-02-09T06:20:13Z drmeister: Bike: Have you had any interaction with the METER code in Cleavir?
2017-02-09T06:20:17Z Bike: some more that's provided by the handler?
2017-02-09T06:20:19Z Bike: drmeister: only a little
2017-02-09T06:20:27Z drmeister: Is it always on?
2017-02-09T06:20:39Z Bike: iiiii think yes
2017-02-09T06:20:41Z smokeink: some more that i provide at higher level
2017-02-09T06:20:43Z drmeister: I'm trying to track down a 30-50% slowdown in building clasp
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2017-02-09T06:21:07Z Bike: smokeink: you could have the handler pass the restart a function
2017-02-09T06:21:09Z drmeister: It's like everything takes 1.5x longer and uses 1.5x more memory.  It's very frustrating.
2017-02-09T06:21:18Z Bike: with arguments, if you need stuff in the lexical enviroonment
2017-02-09T06:21:28Z Bike: drmeister: i don't think any meters have been touched recently
2017-02-09T06:22:17Z smokeink: the thing is this restart is inside a library , it doesn't accept a function as it's parameter
2017-02-09T06:23:14Z Bike: then basically no. the definition of the restart controls what happens.
2017-02-09T06:23:17Z Bike: what are you trying to do?
2017-02-09T06:23:39Z smokeink: is it possible at higher level to add an extra restart that if chosen by the user then it will execute a restart defined in the lib + some extra code given by me at higher level ?
2017-02-09T06:23:52Z smokeink 1 sec i'll make a short paste
2017-02-09T06:24:00Z Bike: add a restart -> no.
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2017-02-09T06:32:12Z smokeink: http://pastecode.ru/18b26a/
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2017-02-09T06:39:52Z smokeink: hmm, im gonna try to wrap it in a handler-bind and add a restart-case inside handler-bind's lambda function
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2017-02-09T06:42:10Z Bike: can you not just call checkl-store from inside the handler?
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2017-02-09T06:43:26Z smokeink: i want to call checkl-store only when use-new-value restart is chosen, not every time the error is signaled . Because sometimes the error might be due to a real bug in the functions so i don't want test results to be updated to some wrong ones
2017-02-09T06:44:11Z Bike: uh... so do it only in the handler that does use that restart?
2017-02-09T06:45:18Z smokeink: can you modify my paste to show me your point? add some pseudocode
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2017-02-09T06:46:17Z smokeink: i'm not sure what/which the 'handler that uses that restart' is
2017-02-09T06:46:43Z Bike: wait, are you j ust choosing restarts from the debugger
2017-02-09T06:47:02Z smokeink: yes
2017-02-09T06:47:36Z Bike: in slime you can just hit 'e' to evaluate something. you can just type in the checkl-store form.
2017-02-09T06:48:18Z smokeink: yes that 's an option
2017-02-09T06:48:29Z smokeink: but to have it automated is even nicer
2017-02-09T06:48:58Z Bike: so you want a level of optimization where you still select the restart manually, and it does that for you?
2017-02-09T06:49:14Z Bike: s/optimization/automation/
2017-02-09T06:49:16Z smokeink: yes
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2017-02-09T06:50:02Z smokeink: the only manual action is to select use-new-value restart, and i want it automatically to save the results to file
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2017-02-09T06:52:01Z smokeink: use-new-value just updates the values in memory, it does not save the values to the file
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2017-02-09T06:53:21Z Bike: (handler-bind ((checkl::result-error (lambda (c) (restart-case (error c) (use-new-value-and-save (new-value) (checkl-store #p"/test/values.txt") (invoke-restart 'use-new-value new-value)))))) (check-formal or whatever))
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2017-02-09T06:53:32Z Bike: that's twisty enough that i dunno if it will work without testing
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2017-02-09T06:54:14Z smokeink: :) thanks, i think it'll work, that's exactly what i was about to try
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2017-02-09T06:55:55Z smokeink: didn't know about the (restart-case (error c)) trick though
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2017-02-09T07:07:05Z smokeink: use-new-value doesn't have a param , checkL uses a global var. Now the only problem is that (invoke-restart 'check::use-new-value) has to be evaled before (checkl-store) so that the value in the global var is updated before it's dumped out to the file.
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2017-02-09T07:07:57Z smokeink: unfortunately it seems that forms after (invoke-restart) are not executed any more
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2017-02-09T07:16:15Z Bike: uh... yeah, invoke-restart transfers control
2017-02-09T07:16:51Z Bike: back to the code you don't control, particularly
2017-02-09T07:17:00Z Bike: so having to do it afterward takes us back to "no"
2017-02-09T07:18:30Z smokeink: damn, this one transfers control as well (checkl-store
2017-02-09T07:18:34Z smokeink: (funcall (slot-value (find-restart 'checkl::use-new-value c) 'function)) <- this one
2017-02-09T07:18:51Z Bike: don't do that
2017-02-09T07:19:00Z Bike: that's the same as invoke-restart anyway
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2017-02-09T07:19:17Z Bike: there is no way to invoke the restart without transferring control, because that doesn't make sense
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2017-02-09T07:21:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-09T07:22:32Z smokeink: good morning
2017-02-09T07:23:37Z smokeink: bike: yeah but it'd be cool to have 'restart' (the transfer of control) and 'restart-body' (the code before transferring control) separate
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2017-02-09T07:24:21Z Bike: restarts are usually intended to run in the context they're written in
2017-02-09T07:24:37Z Bike: you can have a restart that RETURNs something, for instance
2017-02-09T07:25:30Z Bike: nevermind, that's not a good example
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2017-02-09T07:27:41Z smokeink: so can we say that checkL has a design issue , since we can't hook into that restart and automatize stuff ?
2017-02-09T07:28:12Z Bike: i wouldn't say so... you're asking for quite a bit of control over what checkl does
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2017-02-09T07:52:28Z smokeink: ok i understand
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2017-02-09T08:20:13Z shaftoe: is there a way to see available slot-values or accessors on a class instance object?
2017-02-09T08:20:26Z shaftoe: ie, like (hash-table-keys/values ..)
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2017-02-09T08:22:34Z flip214: shaftoe: just inspect it via swank
2017-02-09T08:22:46Z flip214: clhs inspect
2017-02-09T08:22:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_inspec.htm
2017-02-09T08:23:17Z flip214: clhs describe
2017-02-09T08:23:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm
2017-02-09T08:23:21Z flip214: shaftoe: ^^
2017-02-09T08:23:57Z shaftoe: cheers
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2017-02-09T08:28:55Z contrapunctus: Just what am I doing wrong? (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "\\p{IsGraph}" "abc" "X") => "abc" (rather than "XXX"; cl-unicode is loaded)
2017-02-09T08:29:00Z smokeink: swank can inspect functions and display the assembly code, can the asm code be examined without swank ?
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2017-02-09T08:36:44Z edgar-rft: clhs disassemble
2017-02-09T08:36:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_disass.htm
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2017-02-09T08:37:27Z smokeink: nice
2017-02-09T08:37:32Z edgar-rft: :-)
2017-02-09T08:37:48Z shaftoe: it seems like most things you could want exist
2017-02-09T08:38:50Z edgar-rft: not all, but many
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2017-02-09T08:42:26Z contrapunctus: anyone?
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2017-02-09T08:53:05Z flip214: contrapunctus: you did load :cl-ppcre-unicode? what else did you load?
2017-02-09T08:54:10Z flip214: contrapunctus: does it work with any other property names?
2017-02-09T08:55:09Z jdz: contrapunctus: also, are you sure "IsGraph" is a category cl-unicode recognises?
2017-02-09T08:55:09Z contrapunctus: flip214: oh, wait. (ql:quickload :cl-ppcre-unicode) -> http://ix.io/1STq
2017-02-09T08:55:22Z flip214: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "\\p{ASCII_Hex_Digit}" "abcdefghijkl" "X")
2017-02-09T08:55:26Z flip214: does work for me...
2017-02-09T08:56:14Z flip214: contrapunctus: is the installed cl-ppcre from a system package? "apt-get remove cl-ppcre" and then "(ql:quickload :cl-ppcre")
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2017-02-09T08:57:47Z jdz: contrapunctus: I don't see IsGraph here: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr18/#General_Category_Property
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2017-02-09T09:00:39Z jdz: And yes, when cl-ppcre uses cl-unicode, it complains about unknown category IsGraph.
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2017-02-09T09:04:31Z contrapunctus: ah, thank yyou, flip214 and jdz
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2017-02-09T09:05:41Z contrapunctus: flip214: your example returns "XXXXXXghijkl" here, for some reason
2017-02-09T09:06:27Z jdz: Isn't that the expected result?
2017-02-09T09:07:22Z contrapunctus: I'd like to replace any and every graphical character (non-whitespace)
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2017-02-09T09:09:13Z jdz: I don't think it's that simple.
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2017-02-09T09:10:12Z contrapunctus: jdz: How does one go about it, then :\
2017-02-09T09:10:48Z phoe_: clhs whitespacep
2017-02-09T09:10:48Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for whitespacep.
2017-02-09T09:11:30Z phoe_: clhs graphic-char-p
2017-02-09T09:11:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_graphi.htm
2017-02-09T09:11:34Z jdz: contrapunctus: it depends on what you are _really_ after.  For instance, check http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr18/#Compatibility_Properties, the "space" row.
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2017-02-09T09:11:57Z phoe_: contrapunctus: (loop for char across string unless (graphic-char-p char) do (setf char #\X))
2017-02-09T09:12:11Z phoe_: clearly not regex enough but oughtta work
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2017-02-09T09:12:30Z beach: clhs substitute-if
2017-02-09T09:12:30Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
2017-02-09T09:12:38Z contrapunctus: jdz: I'd like to replace "\([:graph:]\) with ``\1, \([:graph:]\)" with \1''
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2017-02-09T09:12:56Z jdz: contrapunctus: define ":graph:".
2017-02-09T09:13:08Z contrapunctus: jdz: non-whitespace
2017-02-09T09:13:18Z jdz: contrapunctus: define "whitespace".
2017-02-09T09:13:20Z contrapunctus: I could just hack it and [A-Za-z0-9] or something
2017-02-09T09:13:38Z contrapunctus: jdz: spaces and tabs...oh.
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2017-02-09T09:14:04Z jdz: contrapunctus: what about " "?
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2017-02-09T09:14:34Z jdz: What about "​"?
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2017-02-09T09:14:50Z loke: And what about " "?
2017-02-09T09:14:51Z contrapunctus: the former is graphical...the latter is...an empty string?
2017-02-09T09:14:55Z jdz: What about vertical tabulation?
2017-02-09T09:15:22Z loke: Found a nice list: https://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/chars/spaces.html
2017-02-09T09:15:25Z contrapunctus: oh, that's..."non-breaking space"?
2017-02-09T09:15:26Z jdz: contrapunctus: no, it contains a glyph.
2017-02-09T09:15:47Z jdz: There's a zero-width-space in "​"?
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2017-02-09T09:15:54Z jdz: That's not a question.
2017-02-09T09:16:07Z loke: There is a HAIR SPACE in my example.
2017-02-09T09:16:30Z loke: There is also IDEAOGRAPH SPACE: "　"
2017-02-09T09:16:35Z loke: And several more.
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2017-02-09T09:17:09Z loke: jdz: Your NO-BREAK SPACE probably shouldn't be seen as a separator...
2017-02-09T09:17:13Z jdz: «The characters in \p{gc=Format} share some, but not all aspects of control characters. Many format characters are required in the representation of plain text.»
2017-02-09T09:17:55Z jdz: contrapunctus: anyway, welcome to Unicode, enjoy your stay.
2017-02-09T09:18:42Z contrapunctus: lol
2017-02-09T09:18:50Z jdz: contrapunctus: http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr18/#Compatibility_Properties also has a "graph" row -- maybe that's what you want?
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2017-02-09T09:19:47Z contrapunctus: a different (less robust?) way of doing the same thing, I guess, is - (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "\(^\| \|	\)\"" "\"abc\"" "\\1``")
2017-02-09T09:20:57Z jdz: contrapunctus: if you just want to substitute particular characters then you don't even need regular expressions (and you've been given example code already).
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2017-02-09T09:21:39Z loke: contrapunctus: You probably want to look at the function SB-UNICODE:WHITESPACE-P
2017-02-09T09:21:41Z contrapunctus: jdz: in "abc", I need to change the first " to ``, then second to ''
2017-02-09T09:21:55Z loke: contrapunctus: that's horrific.
2017-02-09T09:22:01Z iago: clisp noob here, but if you want to match everything but withespaces wouldn't be easier to negate a char class ? [^\s\n\t\r]
2017-02-09T09:22:05Z contrapunctus: loke: which one? :(
2017-02-09T09:22:05Z loke: contrapunctus: You want to be using “ and ” (in English)
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2017-02-09T09:23:09Z contrapunctus: loke: I'm writing a script to convert Wikisource books to LaTeX; some of them use "", some “”
2017-02-09T09:23:27Z jdz: loke: there are other languages than English, you insensitive clod!
2017-02-09T09:23:31Z loke: contrapunctus: You only have to deal with ".
2017-02-09T09:23:42Z loke: contrapunctus: You can put “ and ” directory into LaTeX source.
2017-02-09T09:23:47Z loke: I mean _directly_
2017-02-09T09:23:52Z jdz: In Latvian, for instance, it's „ and ”.
2017-02-09T09:23:59Z beach: iago: CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp.  So we don't use CLISP as an abbreviation for Common Lisp.   Use "CL" if you must abbreviate.
2017-02-09T09:24:04Z loke: In Swedish, you do it ”like this”
2017-02-09T09:24:45Z iago: beach: ok sorry
2017-02-09T09:24:48Z flip214: I say, «this is another quoting»!
2017-02-09T09:24:49Z jdz: loke: two "right quotation marks"?
2017-02-09T09:24:58Z loke: I believe in German, it's « Like this ». Not the HAIR SPACE surrounding the text.
2017-02-09T09:25:08Z loke: jdz: Yes.
2017-02-09T09:25:21Z jdz: loke: that's convenient.
2017-02-09T09:25:23Z contrapunctus: I thought it was „this” in German
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2017-02-09T09:25:53Z loke: jdz: Look at the headline on this Swedish news site for an exmaple: this
2017-02-09T09:25:57Z loke: http://www.dn.se/
2017-02-09T09:26:02Z jdz: Actually, both „” and «» are "valid" in Latvian, and those might be because of the German influence.
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2017-02-09T09:26:28Z jdz: loke: I would not use web pages as a measure of correctness.
2017-02-09T09:27:03Z loke: jdz: That's the largest newspaper in Sweden, and has traditionally been the bearer of language correctness for the last 100 years.
2017-02-09T09:27:20Z loke: jdz: Trust me, they're doing the quotes right :-)
2017-02-09T09:27:51Z jdz: loke: I see, and that's nice.
2017-02-09T09:29:09Z loke: it's probably because I grew up with it, but I feel the ”right quote” style is much nicer than the “upside-down” style. But... I use it when writing in English, of course.
2017-02-09T09:30:08Z loke: What is not entirely clear to me is how to use ‘single’ vs. “double” quotes in English. In Swedish it's much easier: You ”use then when you have a ’recursive’ quote”.
2017-02-09T09:30:17Z flip214: speaking as someone who's doing erratas from time to time, having matched quote pairs is just another thing that goes wrong. Even if it's nicer to read ;)
2017-02-09T09:30:32Z loke: flip214: You make a fair point.
2017-02-09T09:31:07Z loke: For that, the « angle style » should win :-)
2017-02-09T09:31:11Z flip214: these should just fall out correctly by using some sane text processing system... but most people don't.
2017-02-09T09:31:29Z flip214: loke: yeah, exactly.
2017-02-09T09:31:55Z flip214: and for quoted quotations there's ‹› too
2017-02-09T09:31:55Z loke: flip214: True. I've mapped all of these quotes to my keyboard so I can use them correctly. Easier than crossing your fingers and hoping your mail client does the right thigng.
2017-02-09T09:32:17Z loke: flip214: Oh nice! I don't think I have it on my keyboard.
2017-02-09T09:32:28Z jdz: loke: what, you don't use Emacs to write your mails?
2017-02-09T09:32:33Z loke: jdz: I do.
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2017-02-09T09:33:00Z loke: jdz: And Emacs is one of those applications that doesn't even try to be clever in that respect. The other way I type emails is in Gmail.
2017-02-09T09:33:11Z contrapunctus: smartparens!
2017-02-09T09:33:11Z TMA: except that the »angle style« is reversed in certain places also „“ is used
2017-02-09T09:33:20Z loke: TMA: Wait what? Where?
2017-02-09T09:33:21Z loke: :-)
2017-02-09T09:33:32Z jdz: But yeah, I also have them mapped in my keyboard layout (which I've had to create manually anyway, since there is no Dvorak/Latvian out of the box).
2017-02-09T09:33:55Z loke: jdz: Does latvian use äö?
2017-02-09T09:33:59Z TMA: loke: Czech (there are single quotes in use too, but less so)
2017-02-09T09:34:02Z loke: or ü?
2017-02-09T09:34:04Z jdz: loke: no, just āē :)
2017-02-09T09:34:21Z loke: Nice.
2017-02-09T09:34:31Z loke: jdz: I had no idea you were latvian.
2017-02-09T09:34:32Z jdz: loke: we have 3 accents: macron (ā), caron (č), and cedilla (ņ).
2017-02-09T09:34:50Z loke: jdz: Ah, they are accents? Not letters in their own right?
2017-02-09T09:35:15Z jdz: loke: well, accented characters, and they are part of the alphabet as separate letters, yes.
2017-02-09T09:35:40Z loke: jdz: Ah.
2017-02-09T09:35:59Z jdz: Anyway, I think we've now gone waaaay off-topic now.
2017-02-09T09:36:23Z loke: jdz: Does it matter
2017-02-09T09:36:24Z loke: ?
2017-02-09T09:36:44Z jdz: Not until somebody complains.
2017-02-09T09:36:55Z phoe_: (čar '("accents" . "matter")) ;=> "aččents"
2017-02-09T09:38:12Z TMA: we have three diacritics too: acute (á), caron (č), and ring (ů); there is also sometimes an umlaut in german loanwords too
2017-02-09T09:39:56Z phoe_: ąćęłńóśźż
2017-02-09T09:40:05Z phoe_: ĄĆĘŁŃÓŚŹŻ
2017-02-09T09:40:08Z phoe_: that's for Polish
2017-02-09T09:40:14Z flip214: phoe_: be careful with that czar.
2017-02-09T09:40:22Z flip214: ;P
2017-02-09T09:40:22Z phoe_: flip214: czar?
2017-02-09T09:40:46Z flip214: well, how is ĉåŕ spoken?
2017-02-09T09:41:05Z TMA: phoe_: 1. it's čář 2. ;=> "áččěňťš" ; čďř is "mäťťéř"
2017-02-09T09:41:39Z phoe_: TMA: ah, thanks
2017-02-09T09:43:05Z TMA: áčďéěíňóřšťúůýž (and äöü in german loanwords)
2017-02-09T09:44:34Z flip214: next thing here will be colors and ascii-art
2017-02-09T09:46:31Z TMA: Slovak has áäďéíĺľňôŕšťúýž
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2017-02-09T09:48:32Z TMA: flip214: ĉ is like the English ch (esperanto), å has its swedish sound and ŕ is long vocalic r, therefore the ĉåŕ is disyllabic: ĉå-ŕ :)
2017-02-09T09:49:08Z flip214: TMA: how much difference to "czar"?
2017-02-09T09:49:44Z TMA: flip214: altogether it would be probably mispronounced as čór which is Roma word for thief
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2017-02-09T09:51:20Z TMA: flip214: quite differently
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2017-02-09T09:55:32Z TMA: flip214: fitst, there is no palatalization of the initial consonant in czar (palatalization is the difference between s and sh (try the unpalatalized sit versus the palatalized variant; observe your tongue tip position)
2017-02-09T09:56:06Z flip214: TMA: thank you very much. but it was meant as a joke, so this is too many details. sorry.
2017-02-09T09:56:19Z TMA: flip214: yw :)
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2017-02-09T10:15:42Z phoe_: aw geez
2017-02-09T10:15:45Z phoe_: time for another mammoth
2017-02-09T10:16:05Z phoe_ starts hunting the page named Macro PROG, PROG*
2017-02-09T10:16:14Z phoe_: (I've never used these macros)
2017-02-09T10:17:03Z phoe_: PROG is basically BLOCK NIL + LET + TAGBODY, I see
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2017-02-09T10:17:49Z phoe_: and PROG* is basically BLOCK NIL + LET* + TAGBODY
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2017-02-09T10:39:22Z phoe_: haha, the example
2017-02-09T10:39:30Z phoe_: KING-OF-CONFUSION versus PRINCE-OF-CLARITY
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2017-02-09T10:40:00Z phoe_: the everlasting battle that no one I know watches because I don't see PROG or PROG* used in the code that I read.
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2017-02-09T10:42:02Z phoe_: haha! I'm editing the page for PROG2. I can finally fix the error on it.
2017-02-09T10:42:13Z contrapunctus: perspicuously
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2017-02-09T10:52:05Z phoe_: I love it
2017-02-09T10:52:25Z phoe_: PROGN takes forms as input, are what are forms? They're an implicit progn.
2017-02-09T10:52:42Z phoe_: So every PROGN form has two parts: an explicit progn and an implicit progn.
2017-02-09T10:52:52Z lieven: phoe_: are you rewriting the hyperspec?
2017-02-09T10:53:01Z phoe_: You can't make an explicit progn without an implicit progn.
2017-02-09T10:53:02Z phoe_: Haha.
2017-02-09T10:53:05Z phoe_: lieven: sort of.
2017-02-09T10:53:12Z phoe_: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-09T10:55:16Z phoe_: it's a good approximation
2017-02-09T10:55:30Z phoe_: although I'm not using the HyperSpec because of its licence.
2017-02-09T10:55:53Z lieven: and what are your goals? clearing it up or working towards a new standard?
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2017-02-09T10:57:22Z phoe_: lieven: clearing it up, formatting, hyperlinking, and exposing to the Lisp community in a clean, expandable and editable format.
2017-02-09T10:58:15Z lieven: one of the major things I always disliked about it is that some fairly important stuff is hidden in the glossary
2017-02-09T10:58:33Z phoe_: lieven: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data
2017-02-09T10:58:40Z phoe_: describe your issue and file it there.
2017-02-09T10:59:06Z phoe_: once I finish roughlu converting the specification, we (as a community) will be able to address the problems with its current form.
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2017-02-09T10:59:38Z phoe_: and I mean it. the more issues we have there, the more material we will have for building better documentation for CL.
2017-02-09T11:01:18Z lieven: I've forgotten the details but will do if I remember
2017-02-09T11:05:53Z phoe_: lieven: do it even if you don't remember it right now. This way I'll be able to poke you about it in the future and/or perhaps find out what you meant by other menas.
2017-02-09T11:05:57Z phoe_: s/menas/means/
2017-02-09T11:06:29Z phoe_: additionally
2017-02-09T11:06:45Z phoe_: the side effect of me editing the specification is - I've finally learned how to DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO properly
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2017-02-09T11:07:25Z phoe_: I've always used DEFUN SETF until now
2017-02-09T11:08:02Z flip214: and is that bad, using DEFUN SETF?
2017-02-09T11:08:13Z phoe_: no, absolutely
2017-02-09T11:08:20Z phoe_: DEFUN SETF works
2017-02-09T11:08:41Z phoe_: it's just that Common Lisp has DEFUN SETF, DEFSETF, DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO
2017-02-09T11:08:54Z flip214: "among others"
2017-02-09T11:09:00Z phoe_: yes, was about to say that
2017-02-09T11:09:05Z phoe_: oh right
2017-02-09T11:09:10Z phoe_: SETF FDEFINITION
2017-02-09T11:09:23Z jackdaniel: phoe_: you may add note regarding defsetf, that while it's not required by the spec, many implementaitons allow defining defsetf for multiple-values
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2017-02-09T11:10:28Z phoe_: jackdaniel: added
2017-02-09T11:10:31Z phoe_: thank you for your input <3
2017-02-09T11:10:55Z phoe_: oh gods
2017-02-09T11:11:05Z phoe_: flip214: and there's also DEFSETF short form and DEFSETF long form
2017-02-09T11:11:27Z phoe_: you stare at that DEFSETF you encounter in your code and it laughs at you, "HAHA THIS IS NOT EVEN MY FINAL FORM"
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2017-02-09T11:12:40Z jackdaniel: (setf (point x) (values 1 2)) ; <-
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2017-02-09T11:13:34Z phoe_: jackdaniel: can you write a full example of this behaviour?
2017-02-09T11:13:55Z phoe_: like, something I can copypaste into the spec as an actual example under Editor Notes?
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2017-02-09T11:23:20Z phoe_: sweet Jesus, some of the examples are really terrible
2017-02-09T11:23:26Z phoe_: (unless (null x) (rplaca (nthcdr (truncate (1- (list-length x)) 2) x) v))
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2017-02-09T11:23:49Z phoe_: RPLACA NTHCDR TRUNCATE 1- LIST-LENGTH. Just what the fsck.
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2017-02-09T11:28:15Z ogamita: phoe_: (when x (setf (car (nthcdr (1- (truncate (length x) 2)))) v))
2017-02-09T11:28:26Z ogamita: + x
2017-02-09T11:28:36Z ogamita: (when x (setf (car (nthcdr (1- (truncate (length x) 2)) x)) v))
2017-02-09T11:30:02Z ogamita: (let ((x (list 1 2 3 4 5)) (v 0)) (when x (setf (car (nthcdr (truncate (1- (length x)) 2) x)) v)) x) #| --> (1 2 0 4 5) |#
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2017-02-09T11:33:25Z jackdaniel: phoe_: hum, I was wrong, this is explicitly allowed by the spec. Don't know why I have remembered it that way. There may be any number of store variables.
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2017-02-09T11:34:19Z jackdaniel: but you may still use the example if you like it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338667
2017-02-09T11:34:39Z jackdaniel: scratch the first comment, after double checking it happens I have misremembered
2017-02-09T11:37:41Z jackdaniel: first annotation is better: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338667#1
2017-02-09T11:37:53Z ogamita: jackdaniel: in your example above, you lose a value.  (setf (values (point-x p) (point-y p)) (values 1 2))
2017-02-09T11:38:10Z ogamita: I'm not sure you can store multiple values without the (setf values) setter.
2017-02-09T11:38:49Z jackdaniel: I believe it is a conforming code. At first I thought it's not, but I have doulbechecked
2017-02-09T11:39:48Z jackdaniel: (annotation is cleaned up a bit)
2017-02-09T11:40:02Z scymtym: shouldn't it return all values? (as opposed to returning Z)
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2017-02-09T11:40:48Z jackdaniel: it returns point not z, but yeah, notes say that it should
2017-02-09T11:41:28Z scymtym: yeah, overlooked the PROG1
2017-02-09T11:41:29Z ogamita: Well, I suppose one could write a setf expander that would allow storing multiple values at once. (setf (point p) (values 1 2)) (assert (and (= 1 (point-x p)) (= 2 (point-y p))))  should be possible (I don't have time to try it out right now).
2017-02-09T11:41:45Z jackdaniel: scymtym: corrected
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2017-02-09T11:42:54Z jackdaniel: ogamita: yes, that's what this example is all about
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2017-02-09T11:46:40Z phoe_: jackdaniel:
2017-02-09T11:46:42Z phoe_: > alexandria:once-only
2017-02-09T11:46:59Z phoe_: I'm not putting this in the manual for the specification without first defining Alexandria
2017-02-09T11:47:40Z jackdaniel: I've added also x and y to once only, since its in the values
2017-02-09T11:47:42Z jackdaniel: too
2017-02-09T11:47:45Z phoe_: (which is planned)
2017-02-09T11:48:05Z phoe_: jackdaniel: yes, but I need an example for standard CL without any external libraries
2017-02-09T11:48:25Z phoe_: and ONCE-ONLY is an extnernal dependency
2017-02-09T11:48:57Z phoe_: I mean - I *want* to vote for intertwining Alexandria in the examples at some point because it's pretty much a standard library nowadays
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2017-02-09T11:48:57Z jackdaniel: phoe_: then change it to (let ((point point) (x x) …)
2017-02-09T11:49:09Z phoe_: jackdaniel: okay.
2017-02-09T11:49:14Z jackdaniel: or even better, define once-only, since it's a common idiom
2017-02-09T11:49:19Z jackdaniel: macro should be max a few lines
2017-02-09T11:50:54Z phoe_: https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/master/macros.lisp#L30
2017-02-09T11:50:58Z phoe_: >should be max a few lines
2017-02-09T11:51:00Z phoe_: yeah, right
2017-02-09T11:52:10Z phoe_: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338667#4
2017-02-09T11:52:13Z phoe_: is this correct enough?
2017-02-09T11:52:42Z jackdaniel: yes
2017-02-09T11:53:49Z scymtym: jackdaniel: i think DEFSETF takes care of evaluation order issues: "During the evaluation of the forms, the variables in the lambda-list and the store-variables are bound to names of temporary variables …"
2017-02-09T11:54:23Z phoe_: okay - one more thing though jackdaniel, I will need explicit output there.
2017-02-09T11:54:30Z phoe_: to show that the values were actually setf'd.
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2017-02-09T11:54:38Z sjl wishes alexandria's once-only used the given symbols for the gensym names, instead of naming everything once-only1234
2017-02-09T11:54:40Z phoe_: so I'll need struct accessors it seems.
2017-02-09T11:54:59Z phoe_: sjl: make a patch and file it at their mailing list
2017-02-09T11:55:11Z sjl: yeah I should
2017-02-09T11:55:12Z jackdaniel: (let ((point (make-point))) (setf (foo point :kind :2d) (values 1 2)) (print point))
2017-02-09T11:56:58Z jackdaniel: scymtym: you are right
2017-02-09T11:57:09Z jackdaniel: phoe_: there is no need for the once only (nor the let etc)
2017-02-09T11:57:25Z phoe_: jackdaniel: <3
2017-02-09T11:57:48Z jackdaniel: regarding showing the point, just create it beforehand and print it after defsetfing it
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2017-02-09T12:00:50Z phoe_: jackdaniel: right
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2017-02-09T12:01:04Z jackdaniel: here, final version http://paste.lisp.org/display/338667#5
2017-02-09T12:01:07Z jackdaniel: hueh
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2017-02-09T12:01:49Z jackdaniel: however the setf could be factored to (setf (values (point-x ,point) (point-y ,point) (point-z ,point)) (values x y z))
2017-02-09T12:02:03Z jackdaniel: so we wouldn't have to put explicit (values x y z) at the end of a progn
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2017-02-09T12:02:30Z phoe_: jackdaniel: not so final then, eh
2017-02-09T12:03:20Z jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338667#6 :)
2017-02-09T12:04:17Z jackdaniel: we could go even futher by doing this in ecase, so setfing 2d point will return two values, but I've got to leave for a while now
2017-02-09T12:04:21Z jackdaniel: :)
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2017-02-09T12:05:46Z jackdaniel: I've added it in one more paste, cu
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2017-02-09T12:13:36Z phoe_: jackdaniel: <3
2017-02-09T12:13:38Z phoe_: clhs defsetf
2017-02-09T12:13:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm
2017-02-09T12:13:43Z phoe_: the *xy* example
2017-02-09T12:13:46Z phoe_: it sucks
2017-02-09T12:13:49Z phoe_: and it sucks *bad*.
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2017-02-09T12:16:33Z Xach: Is it an option to skip bad examples for now?
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2017-02-09T12:21:07Z phoe_: Xach: I'm leaving them in for now with a TODO.
2017-02-09T12:21:23Z phoe_: I only want to remove them only when I have something better.
2017-02-09T12:21:27Z phoe_: clhs define-setf-expander
2017-02-09T12:21:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_3.htm
2017-02-09T12:21:33Z phoe_: In the second example, "Recall that the int form must itself be suitable for SETF."
2017-02-09T12:21:39Z phoe_: What's the "int form"?
2017-02-09T12:22:24Z phoe_: I mean, I can see the variable. But why is it named INT?
2017-02-09T12:22:33Z phoe_: Smells like "integer".
2017-02-09T12:23:06Z jackdaniel: yes, second argument to ldb is integer
2017-02-09T12:25:28Z phoe_: So what does it mean in this case, be suitable for SETF?
2017-02-09T12:25:39Z phoe_: That it must be a place?
2017-02-09T12:25:47Z phoe_: I mean, something SETFable?
2017-02-09T12:26:16Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#place
2017-02-09T12:26:57Z phoe_: jackdaniel: this doesn't answer me yet.
2017-02-09T12:27:04Z jackdaniel: it's just two clicks away
2017-02-09T12:27:07Z jackdaniel: let me click it for you
2017-02-09T12:27:08Z jackdaniel: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_aa.htm
2017-02-09T12:27:16Z phoe_: clhs ldb
2017-02-09T12:27:16Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm
2017-02-09T12:27:45Z phoe_: jackdaniel: I'm trying to understand the phrase, "suitable for SETF".
2017-02-09T12:28:50Z phoe_: From the LDB page, does it mean this? (setf (ldb (byte 2 1) (car a)) 1)
2017-02-09T12:29:15Z phoe_: So the INTEGER is a place?
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2017-02-09T12:29:49Z sjl: phoe_: it's saying that whatever gets given as INT must itself be setfable
2017-02-09T12:29:55Z jackdaniel: (let ((a 3)) a) ; <- a is a place, 3 is not
2017-02-09T12:30:13Z phoe_: sjl: jackdaniel: I see. Got it.
2017-02-09T12:30:30Z sjl: like you can't do (setf (ldb ... 42) ...)
2017-02-09T12:30:41Z phoe_: IMO this needs to be said differently, "suitable for SETF" is not a clear term.
2017-02-09T12:31:05Z phoe_: If I spent five minutes thinking about this and only got a clear answer with your help, other people will get stuck here as well.
2017-02-09T12:31:22Z phoe_: s/suitable for SETF/a place/ <- better?
2017-02-09T12:32:19Z sjl: I think so, yes
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2017-02-09T12:34:17Z sjl: if I were implementing that example I'd say (define-setf-expander ldb (bytespec integer-place &environment env) ...)
2017-02-09T12:34:36Z sjl: to make it clear that a) the second arg must be a place, and b) the place is expected to contain an integer at runtime
2017-02-09T12:35:15Z sjl: Argument Names as a Type System™
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2017-02-09T12:35:58Z jackdaniel: glVertex3f
2017-02-09T12:36:30Z sjl: oh yeah that's the perfect storm of using-names-to-compensate
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2017-02-09T12:49:35Z phoe_: sjl: this is actually a sane suggestion, implementing it
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2017-02-09T13:10:13Z pareidolia: Does anyone know of a library that does HTTP header parsing like the Accept header in complex cases like this: "*/*;q=0.5, application/xml, application/xhtml+xml, image/png, text/plain;q=0.8, text/html;q=0.9"
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2017-02-09T13:10:42Z ogamita: AFAIK, hunchentoot must do it. You can POST stuff to hunchentoot.
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2017-02-09T13:11:30Z ogamita: ah, but you mean, for a HTTP client.  We use drakma in general. I don't know if drakma manages this.
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2017-02-09T13:16:14Z scymtym: pareidolia: more a proof-of-concept but maybe still useful: https://github.com/sbcl/specializable/blob/master/src/accept-specializer/accept-specializer.lisp#L89
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2017-02-09T13:18:02Z axion: There is also dexador which seems to split out a hash table of headers
2017-02-09T13:18:09Z axion: spit rather
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2017-02-09T13:20:10Z phoe_: oooh
2017-02-09T13:20:13Z Trystam is now known as Tristam
2017-02-09T13:20:18Z phoe_: I've more or less finished the Flow chapter
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2017-02-09T13:20:36Z phoe_: I'll push it live soon.
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2017-02-09T13:31:04Z Xach: i will miss the wordplay of the name hyperspec
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2017-02-09T13:35:10Z pareidolia: Xach: wordplay?
2017-02-09T13:35:19Z flip214: a pune or play on words
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2017-02-09T13:35:57Z Xach: the hypertext spec. i guess it's not especially playful, but still.
2017-02-09T13:36:09Z pareidolia: It's more like portmanteau
2017-02-09T13:36:15Z Xach: "the very definition of class" is a bit more wordplay-y, though.
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2017-02-09T13:36:26Z pareidolia: Oh yeah
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2017-02-09T13:36:42Z pareidolia: I love its timeless design
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2017-02-09T13:37:35Z Xach: no need to be cruel :~(
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2017-02-09T13:37:48Z pareidolia: No sarcasm!
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2017-02-09T13:38:08Z Xach: oh. to me it screams "90s". but i grew up in the 90s, so it has a kind of nostalgic cool. but i wouldn't agree with timeless.
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2017-02-09T13:38:36Z dlowe: It's as timeless as your default browser stylesheet
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2017-02-09T13:39:13Z pareidolia: Xach: I also love this particular style of typesetting https://image.slidesharecdn.com/borlandcversion3-131119125256-phpapp02/95/borland-c-version30usersguide1991-14-638.jpg?cb=1384865966
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2017-02-09T13:57:36Z phoe_: clhs setq
2017-02-09T13:57:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm
2017-02-09T13:57:43Z phoe_: why is SETQ a Special Form and not a Special Operator?
2017-02-09T13:58:04Z beach: It *is* a special operator.
2017-02-09T13:58:17Z phoe_: No! It says Special Form right on the header!
2017-02-09T13:58:30Z beach: It says wrong.
2017-02-09T13:58:48Z phoe_: Geez, there are so many silly mistakes like this in the spec.
2017-02-09T13:58:57Z beach: special form n. a list, other than a macro form, which is a form with special syntax or special evaluation rules or both, possibly manipulating the evaluation environment or control flow or both. The first element of a special form is a special operator.
2017-02-09T13:59:03Z phoe_: beach: I'm teasing.
2017-02-09T13:59:20Z beach: Ah.
2017-02-09T13:59:25Z phoe_: I know it's a special operator, it's just that suddenly, out of nowhere, it says Special Form instead of Special Operator.
2017-02-09T13:59:40Z phoe_: The specification is full of little things like these.
2017-02-09T13:59:47Z beach: Yeah, the term "special operator" was invented late-ish.
2017-02-09T14:01:29Z shka: well, you can finally set things right
2017-02-09T14:01:32Z shka: to a some degree
2017-02-09T14:03:32Z jdz: Famous last words.
2017-02-09T14:09:04Z phoe_: set things right
2017-02-09T14:10:44Z phoe_: (defvar foo 5) (defvar things 'foo) (defvar right 'baz)
2017-02-09T14:10:47Z phoe_: (set things right)
2017-02-09T14:11:06Z phoe_: shka: am I doing it correctly?
2017-02-09T14:11:20Z shka: how should i know?
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2017-02-09T14:15:15Z francogrex: Hi, is anyone experienced with parenscript? https://common-lisp.net/project/parenscript/
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2017-02-09T14:15:51Z francogrex: my question is the following:
2017-02-09T14:16:10Z francogrex: parenscripts translates almost any lisp code
2017-02-09T14:16:27Z francogrex: but the result of the translation may not be a correct JS code?
2017-02-09T14:16:52Z francogrex: it just "javascriptize" the lisp code
2017-02-09T14:17:53Z francogrex: is there a way to make a verification on which code is correct (runs) and which doesn't and where is the problematic translated code?
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2017-02-09T14:20:23Z smokeink_: i'm not sure but i don't think it translates any lisp code, it only translates the javascriptish code
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2017-02-09T14:23:58Z francogrex: smokeink_: not really it translates any code and it translates it in any way whether the JS function that is translated exists or not
2017-02-09T14:25:08Z francogrex: see here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338677
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2017-02-09T14:25:31Z francogrex: mapcar, car caddr are meaningless in JS
2017-02-09T14:25:41Z francogrex: yet translation happens
2017-02-09T14:26:20Z francogrex: contrast parenscript with another translator like Linj (lisp to java)... which never translates a code into rubbish
2017-02-09T14:28:18Z phoe_: francogrex: parenscript does not know what MAPCAR is.
2017-02-09T14:28:48Z phoe_: read up on its manual - it cannot translate *all* of Common Lisp, and MAPCAR is a part of CL that Parenscript does not know how to translate.
2017-02-09T14:30:05Z francogrex: phoe: you didn't get my point
2017-02-09T14:30:22Z francogrex: i already knew that
2017-02-09T14:30:46Z francogrex: what I am arguing is that it should output anything in such cases...
2017-02-09T14:30:49Z jurov: he wants parenscript to bomb "i cannot translate this"
2017-02-09T14:30:56Z francogrex: exactly!
2017-02-09T14:31:28Z jurov: but it's ambigouos, what  if you *want* function named mapcar in js?
2017-02-09T14:31:36Z ogamita: But you can implement mapcar in javascript!
2017-02-09T14:31:43Z francogrex: so right now, compared to http://www.cliki.net/LinJ it is very poor
2017-02-09T14:31:57Z ogamita: The problem might be rather that parenscript doesn't deal with CL packages.
2017-02-09T14:31:58Z francogrex: ogamita: that's not the question here
2017-02-09T14:32:22Z phoe_: francogrex: uh, I have a different toolchain here
2017-02-09T14:32:34Z francogrex: really?
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2017-02-09T14:32:37Z phoe_: simply let some JS linter process the code that Parenscript spits out.
2017-02-09T14:32:46Z francogrex: try to run it on the code in the link I sent
2017-02-09T14:32:46Z phoe_: you'll get all undefined vars and functions this way.
2017-02-09T14:33:11Z francogrex: what is it, pls give url of what you have gotten  it from
2017-02-09T14:33:23Z francogrex: where
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2017-02-09T14:34:06Z phoe_: francogrex: d'oh
2017-02-09T14:34:07Z phoe_: https://i.imgtc.com/Yxv2jbP.png
2017-02-09T14:34:18Z francogrex: https://i.imgtc.com/Yxv2jbP.png
2017-02-09T14:34:20Z phoe_: the first link that I got from "javascript link online"
2017-02-09T14:34:45Z francogrex: ok it's like a debugger
2017-02-09T14:34:56Z phoe_: yes
2017-02-09T14:34:57Z francogrex: of JS
2017-02-09T14:35:04Z francogrex: to identify bad code
2017-02-09T14:35:12Z phoe_: and I'd expect you to debug PS-generated code with a JS linter like this.
2017-02-09T14:35:23Z phoe_: online, offline, anything.
2017-02-09T14:35:46Z phoe_: there are more sophisticated javascript testing frameworks built on top of NodeJS that I don't know much about, other than the fact they exist.
2017-02-09T14:36:11Z francogrex: ok phoe_
2017-02-09T14:36:52Z francogrex: and how was it again if you want to inject a pure js code into the lisp one before translating with ps
2017-02-09T14:36:54Z francogrex: ?
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2017-02-09T14:38:42Z francogrex: (ps (@ document write))  for example you add the @ ?
2017-02-09T14:40:16Z phoe_: francogrex: I don't know.
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2017-02-09T14:40:34Z phoe_: I've never used Parenscript enough to try that.
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2017-02-09T14:45:58Z francogrex: ok
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2017-02-09T14:49:12Z chream: Hello! I find myself using adolist and adotimes a lot. Any reason I have never seen them mentioned?
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2017-02-09T14:49:55Z smokeink_: https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/pb72i/clactivevariables_variables_with_readwrite/
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2017-02-09T14:50:50Z phoe_: chream: what's adolist?
2017-02-09T14:51:51Z dlowe: anaphoric dolist
2017-02-09T14:51:58Z chream: yes
2017-02-09T14:52:01Z Xach: adieulist
2017-02-09T14:52:14Z dlowe: anaphora just isn't that popular
2017-02-09T14:52:16Z Xach: chream: I don't mention them because I think anaphoric macros look bad.
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2017-02-09T14:53:28Z dlowe: I used to use acond until I realized I could do (let (target) (cond ((null arg) (reply "no arg")) ((null (setf target (resolve-target arg))) (reply "target not found")) (t ... do something with target ...)))
2017-02-09T14:53:31Z chream: Xach: I agree to some extent, but constantly binding a result var gets frustrating. I would say simple anamorphic macros are ok.
2017-02-09T14:53:49Z axion: I don't agree with temporary symbols being created that weren't requested to be bound
2017-02-09T14:53:49Z dlowe is unfrustrated.
2017-02-09T14:54:32Z phoe_ published CLUS chapter Flow, it should be online within a few minutes.
2017-02-09T14:56:45Z chream: Xach: might just create a snippet.
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2017-02-09T14:58:45Z jackdaniel: chream: it's personal preference. For instance library metabang.bind isn't discussed frequently either
2017-02-09T14:59:04Z jackdaniel: nor some constructs in alexandria – not much to discuss – people aware of this things just use them or not
2017-02-09T14:59:11Z jackdaniel: (methinks)
2017-02-09T14:59:13Z dlowe: bind is an easier sell than anaphoa
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2017-02-09T15:00:06Z chream: jackdaniel: cool. havent seen this. Thanks!
2017-02-09T15:00:33Z phoe_: First preview: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo on the bottom of the page.
2017-02-09T15:00:41Z phoe_: I'll look more at it in the evening. Pausing for now.
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2017-02-09T15:01:00Z dlowe: people do talk about iterate.
2017-02-09T15:01:11Z phoe_: dlowe: they do, sometimes
2017-02-09T15:01:13Z phoe_: often enough
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2017-02-09T15:01:27Z dlowe: It's funny, though, with all the customization power of CL at hand, I usually just use stuff in the CL package.
2017-02-09T15:02:12Z dlowe: I could use all these cool extensions, but then I'd have to learn them, and then I'd have to integrate them into my practice
2017-02-09T15:02:51Z dlowe: and usually CL has some not-too-odious tool that will do the job already built in
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2017-02-09T15:04:10Z Xach: Some people create macros that are so core to what they do that their code seems a bit like another language
2017-02-09T15:04:49Z Xach: ron garrett uses BB a *lot*, for example.
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2017-02-09T15:08:47Z phoe_: What's BB?
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2017-02-09T15:13:11Z chream: phoe: https://github.com/rongarret/ergolib. Its short for binding block. replaces let, mvb, db etc. Also does other stuff. I remember one of the first times I tried hacking som lisp library using BB. I could not get anything to work and gave up on lisp for a couple of years.
2017-02-09T15:16:32Z phoe_: I see.
2017-02-09T15:16:45Z phoe_: So basically a different metabang.bind.
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2017-02-09T15:26:37Z Xach: it is a community of one
2017-02-09T15:26:46Z Xach: like many things in the CL world...
2017-02-09T15:27:05Z fe[nl]ix: I like that
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2017-02-09T15:27:28Z fe[nl]ix: it avoid all the political intrigues and drama than happen in big "communities"
2017-02-09T15:27:32Z fe[nl]ix: *avoids
2017-02-09T15:27:41Z dlowe: it avoids all the benefits too
2017-02-09T15:27:49Z fe[nl]ix: true
2017-02-09T15:28:06Z dlowe: no matter how good a singer is, they will not be able to sing a chord
2017-02-09T15:28:44Z dlowe: and sometimes one's ambitions are larger than what one person can accomplish
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2017-02-09T15:31:44Z PuercoPop: On small custimization I like is rlet et all. Moving the local function definitions to the bottom improves readability.
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2017-02-09T15:38:29Z ogamita: dlowe: this is false, some singers can sing chords.
2017-02-09T15:41:04Z ogamita: dlowe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHTF1-IhuC0
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2017-02-09T15:53:41Z phoe_: I only have about 420 dictionary pages to process.
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2017-02-09T15:53:52Z phoe_: Which is not all that much.
2017-02-09T15:54:12Z phoe_: pages left*
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2017-02-09T15:56:38Z dlowe: ogamita: sigh.  there's always one in the audience.
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2017-02-09T15:59:45Z ogamita: dlowe: more than one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=903UrJMkwcE
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2017-02-09T16:00:22Z dlowe: I meant you
2017-02-09T16:00:37Z phoe_: woah, chapter about hashtables is very small and quick.
2017-02-09T16:01:22Z phoe_: I'll most likely push it today along with iteration. The sad thing is, the chapter about iteration doesn't contain any sane description of LOOP - it's described in the concepts and not the dictionary.
2017-02-09T16:01:40Z phoe_: And concepts will come after the dictionary, with LOOP and FORMAT being the very very first ones.
2017-02-09T16:02:21Z Fare: do they mention pure functional tables, with lisp-interface-library ?
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2017-02-09T16:02:35Z phoe_: Fare: is this a question to me?
2017-02-09T16:02:48Z phoe_: because I doubt the standard mentions purely functional tables.
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2017-02-09T16:02:57Z Fare: oh, the standard.
2017-02-09T16:03:16Z phoe_: yes - plain, boring CLUSwork.
2017-02-09T16:03:42Z phoe_ disappears - going home
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2017-02-09T16:04:56Z aeth: So apparently Lisp is for programmers who can sing chords.
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2017-02-09T16:06:47Z scymtym: Fare: would you accept a patch for cl-launch that makes the Quicklisp directory configurable? (i use it for isolated CI builds)
2017-02-09T16:07:41Z Fare: scymtym, sure, as long as things keep working by default.
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2017-02-09T16:08:42Z scymtym: Fare: ok, thanks. i will clean up what i have and make an issue
2017-02-09T16:08:56Z dlowe: well, as long as the chords have two notes
2017-02-09T16:09:08Z dlowe: fine. s/chords/triads/
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2017-02-09T16:10:18Z Fare: how do you propose to make it configurable? command-line? environment variable? baked in constant at install-time?
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2017-02-09T16:11:27Z Fare: scymtym, are you interested in taking over cl-launch?
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2017-02-09T16:15:16Z scymtym: Fare: regarding the first question, i added QUICKLISP_PATH which is analogous to USE_QUICKLISP, i.e. with corresponding DEFAULT variable
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2017-02-09T16:17:18Z scymtym: regarding the second question, at this point, i don't understand cl-launch well enough to maintain it - disregarding the questions whether i want to and have the time
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2017-02-09T16:18:58Z antoszka: I just browsed the code, looks like a big blob of shell black magic.
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2017-02-09T16:28:52Z Fare: scymtym: or, maybe USE_QUICKLISP should be a path?
2017-02-09T16:28:55Z Fare: or something?
2017-02-09T16:29:25Z Fare: antoszka, it's shell + CL duolingual black magic.
2017-02-09T16:29:40Z antoszka: yeah :)
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2017-02-09T16:30:37Z Fare: another option would be to write a compiler from a subset of CL to shell, and write the bootstrap parts in that subset...
2017-02-09T16:30:42Z Fare: more magic, less black :-)
2017-02-09T16:31:04Z Fare: but yeah, one-file self-contained was the name of the game.
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2017-02-09T16:31:20Z Fare: and then again, I moved the testing to another file... more black magic
2017-02-09T16:32:11Z scymtym: Fare: USE_QUICKLISP optionally containing the path sounds like a good idea. i will try to make a variant that does that
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2017-02-09T16:36:16Z ogamita: Fare: check out https://github.com/shinh/elvm ; probably you would be able to port lisp500 to 8cc easily, and then generate it to bash with elvm.
2017-02-09T16:36:43Z ogamita: Compiling ecl or clisp with 8cc would be more porting work, they have gcc dependencies.
2017-02-09T16:36:55Z Fare: antoszka, needless to say, it was a hell to debug. The slightest change could cause great pain in an unexpected place. I could never have done it without testing.
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2017-02-09T16:40:48Z Fare: now if someone adds an EIR backend for Urbit...
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2017-02-09T16:44:14Z dlowe: A CL->bash compiler sounds like a horrifying work of art.
2017-02-09T16:44:21Z dlowe: I fully endorse it.
2017-02-09T16:44:51Z dlowe: alternately, a CL compiler written in bash.
2017-02-09T16:45:08Z Fare: I can bootstrap the latter with the former.
2017-02-09T16:45:46Z dlowe: could do a minimal CL in bash, then use sicl
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2017-02-09T16:49:25Z ogamita: dlowe: it's already done, you just have to compile your CL implementation with 8cc instead of gcc.
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2017-02-09T17:46:36Z jasom: PuercoPop: the docs should read (ps:ps (ps:new (Person age shoe)))
2017-02-09T17:47:00Z jasom: PuercoPop: though, as written, it works if ps:new is accessible in the current package.
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2017-02-09T17:57:24Z sbodin: hello
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2017-02-09T18:09:29Z PuercoPop: jasom: From reading the case conversion part it doesn't work with having and - o * before the symbol person-person or *person
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2017-02-09T18:10:12Z PuercoPop: I've submited a PR fixing the documentation
2017-02-09T18:11:13Z jasom: PuercoPop: oh, I missed the case-thing, good catch
2017-02-09T18:12:15Z jasom: PuercoPop: I'll merge tonight
2017-02-09T18:12:51Z PuercoPop: jasom: yeah, It was the case thing I was talking about, the question in #lispweb made me realize that inaccuracy
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2017-02-09T18:16:14Z phoe: Hey!
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2017-02-09T18:30:56Z phoe: Geez, I look at the chapter I've converted and there are still so many bugs present that it stings mah eyessss.
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2017-02-09T18:34:55Z phoe: But at the same time. Holy hell. I've already managed to transcribe a lot of Common Lisp.
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2017-02-09T18:36:05Z _death: phoe, but what is the purpose of this project
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2017-02-09T18:38:25Z contrapunctus: _death: "clearing [the CLHS] up, formatting, hyperlinking, and [it] exposing to the Lisp community in a clean, expandable and editable format."
2017-02-09T18:38:31Z phoe: contrapunctus: woah
2017-02-09T18:38:40Z contrapunctus: o.o'
2017-02-09T18:38:54Z phoe: did you just quote me faster than I could quote myself
2017-02-09T18:38:55Z contrapunctus: ... * exposing [it]
2017-02-09T18:39:05Z contrapunctus: phoe: "couldn't have put it better myself"? xD
2017-02-09T18:39:11Z phoe: also, not the CLHS - the specification
2017-02-09T18:39:19Z contrapunctus: my bad.
2017-02-09T18:39:31Z phoe: I don't use CLHS because I'm prohibited from modifying it.
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2017-02-09T18:40:07Z contrapunctus: phoe: what license is the ANSI spec under?
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2017-02-09T18:41:01Z _death: but that just says what you're trying to do, not why
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2017-02-09T18:41:53Z phoe: contrapunctus: the third draft is in the public domain.
2017-02-09T18:42:03Z phoe: _death: because I think it should be done and I want to do it
2017-02-09T18:42:09Z phoe: that's ultimately why
2017-02-09T18:42:29Z travv0`: Also I'm sure you'll learning a lot, which sounds nice
2017-02-09T18:42:32Z phoe: also because I think Lisp needs to have its documentation improved.
2017-02-09T18:42:34Z travv0`: *you're
2017-02-09T18:42:35Z contrapunctus: phoe: then you can just scan that (and that would be PD) and do whatever you want with it (OCR)
2017-02-09T18:42:38Z phoe: travv0`: hell, I'm learning a real lot.
2017-02-09T18:42:40Z phoe: contrapunctus: why?
2017-02-09T18:42:43Z jasom: _death: haven't you ever wished there was a CLHS with annotations or corrections?
2017-02-09T18:42:44Z phoe: I have the LaTeX sources.
2017-02-09T18:42:49Z _death: jasom: no
2017-02-09T18:42:49Z contrapunctus: oh o_o
2017-02-09T18:43:04Z phoe: _death: no problem, the CLHS isn't going anywhere
2017-02-09T18:43:14Z _death: jasom: to me the hyperspec is set in stone, and any errata should be separate
2017-02-09T18:43:20Z _death: jasom: (e.g., the cliki page)
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2017-02-09T18:43:57Z travv0`: Is what phoe's doing not separate?
2017-02-09T18:44:03Z jasom: travv0`: it is separate
2017-02-09T18:44:08Z phoe: _death: sounds good. you're not required to approve my project and I'm not required to share your opinion
2017-02-09T18:44:27Z jasom: travv0`: but any hyperlinked specification of common lisp is going to draw comparisons to the clhs
2017-02-09T18:44:28Z _death: what phoe is doing is separate indeed
2017-02-09T18:44:33Z _death: I just answered jasom's question
2017-02-09T18:44:34Z phoe: jasom: I actually *am* modifying the specification, like fixing a few obvious mistakes like the PROG2 description
2017-02-09T18:45:07Z travv0`: _death: gotcha, I thought you were giving a reason why you didn't like the idea
2017-02-09T18:45:09Z phoe: and also shamelessly modifying examples and notes, as they're not a formal part of the spec.
2017-02-09T18:45:24Z phoe: _death: also, the CLHS isn't going anywhere
2017-02-09T18:45:29Z Younder: PROG2 isn't that just progn1  on the second line?
2017-02-09T18:45:38Z phoe: clhs prog2
2017-02-09T18:45:39Z Younder: prog1
2017-02-09T18:45:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog1c.htm
2017-02-09T18:45:55Z phoe: Younder: read the description for prog2 and tell me what about it doesn't sound right
2017-02-09T18:46:04Z phoe: but answering your question: yes, it is
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2017-02-09T18:46:18Z jasom: "prog2 evaluates first-form, then second-form, and then forms, yielding as its only value the primary value yielded by first-form."  <-- obvious typo
2017-02-09T18:46:21Z phoe: except it has a silly mistake in its description
2017-02-09T18:46:22Z phoe: yes
2017-02-09T18:46:26Z travv0`: heh
2017-02-09T18:46:39Z _death: phoe: I can't see this replacing the hyperspec for me.. first, I use a local hyperspec version anyway.. but second, the status of hyperspec is special, and if I have a legalese-kind question about CL that is the only document I care about.. it also doesn't help if translation is done by hand, as this may introduce more errors
2017-02-09T18:46:53Z phoe: _death: exactly.
2017-02-09T18:46:58Z Younder: I have never used prog2
2017-02-09T18:47:09Z phoe: I'm not attempting to obsolete the specification or the CLHS.
2017-02-09T18:47:15Z jasom: I have used prog2 once.  I was surprised to use it.
2017-02-09T18:47:18Z phoe: (would be kind of silly if I tried)
2017-02-09T18:47:20Z _death: phoe: so I was wondering what was the actual reason for doing that
2017-02-09T18:47:20Z axion: I nevber noticed how wrong prog2 is
2017-02-09T18:47:49Z travv0`: Every time I've thought about using prog2 I've decided there was probably a better way
2017-02-09T18:47:50Z phoe: _death: I want to be able to include other bodies of documentation for CL libraries and extensions and hyperlink it with the existing docs.
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2017-02-09T18:49:32Z Younder: Seems to me the idiom which prog2 tries to cover is better served with exceptions.
2017-02-09T18:49:47Z _death: phoe: ok.. I can also imagine annotations being useful
2017-02-09T18:50:01Z Younder: That it is simply an old relic.
2017-02-09T18:50:16Z jasom: Younder: indeed, most cases in which prog2 would be useful unwind-protect is more correct (i.e. calculate a value, then cleanup)
2017-02-09T18:50:33Z phoe: Younder: CL has weird constructions like that
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2017-02-09T18:50:35Z phoe: clhs prog
2017-02-09T18:50:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_prog_.htm
2017-02-09T18:50:38Z phoe: this one is very peculiar
2017-02-09T18:50:54Z phoe: (block nil (let (...) (tagbody ...)))
2017-02-09T18:51:07Z phoe: like, uh
2017-02-09T18:51:08Z phoe: "weird"
2017-02-09T18:51:15Z jasom: phoe: I actually use that for state machines sometimes
2017-02-09T18:51:40Z phoe: jasom: I see
2017-02-09T18:52:16Z jasom: GO to switch states RETURN to exit and the bindings are sometimes useful as well
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2017-02-09T18:55:17Z jasom: if you encapsulate the whole thing in a function, and are willing to use &aux parameters, then it's no more useful than a tagbody, but a lot of people don't like &aux and I prefer (return foo) to (return-from bar foo)
2017-02-09T18:55:44Z Younder: Yes, I expect it might still exist in some macros.
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2017-02-09T18:57:10Z Younder: Another case is class :around (a thunk) which might in the past been done with a prog2
2017-02-09T18:57:11Z jasom: progv I've never used, though it can't be emulated with any other set of calls on most implementations.
2017-02-09T18:58:04Z phoe: oh, good.
2017-02-09T18:58:05Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/HG8NSrw.png
2017-02-09T18:58:21Z phoe: I have the fourth markup for undefined/unspecified stuff.
2017-02-09T18:58:26Z jasom: (single threaded code can emulate PROGV with SET and UNWIND-PROTECT, but most multithreaded code handles setting the value cell and binding a special differently)
2017-02-09T18:58:40Z jasom: s/multithreaded code/multithreaded implementations/
2017-02-09T18:58:52Z _death: ./snippets/template-engine.lisp:  (progv (bindings-vars bindings)
2017-02-09T18:59:11Z _death: the only progv use I found, but I'm pretty sure I used it in other one-off programs
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2017-02-09T18:59:40Z phoe: haha, it was worth to start working on this
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2017-02-09T19:00:00Z phoe provoked a discussion about the obscure parts of Common Lisp
2017-02-09T19:00:07Z Younder: As we move to multi-thread some of these old construct start giving me a sour feel. Not sure why. But they feel wrong.
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2017-02-09T19:02:30Z phoe: Younder: note that they most likely will work in 20-30 years
2017-02-09T19:02:40Z phoe: with Lisp's timelessness
2017-02-09T19:02:53Z Younder: ohh yes
2017-02-09T19:04:26Z phoe: operator, n. 1. a function, macro, or special operator. 2. a symbol that names such a function, macro, or special operator.
2017-02-09T19:04:43Z phoe: so a function is an operator, and a symbol naming such a function is also an operator
2017-02-09T19:04:57Z Bike: under different definitions.
2017-02-09T19:05:04Z phoe: yes yes, but let's (defun foo () 3)
2017-02-09T19:05:09Z phoe: so foo is an operator
2017-02-09T19:05:18Z phoe: if I now (declare (special foo)) then will foo be a special operator!?
2017-02-09T19:05:29Z _death: no
2017-02-09T19:05:36Z _death: special variable
2017-02-09T19:05:51Z phoe: _death: I know, I'm just fooling around now.
2017-02-09T19:06:22Z phoe: All these high doses of specification editing are making me go nuts.
2017-02-09T19:06:34Z phoe: But I want to have a working beta version before ELS.
2017-02-09T19:06:59Z Bike: how much is left?
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2017-02-09T19:07:33Z phoe: the majority.
2017-02-09T19:07:51Z phoe: the majority of the dictionaries, plus the whole concepts, plus the glossary.
2017-02-09T19:07:57Z phoe: but hell, I think I can do it on time.
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2017-02-09T19:08:57Z Younder: I'd multiply that by 3. (Not a critic our your work just personal experience)
2017-02-09T19:09:37Z phoe: Younder: I'd multiply that by 3 as well, but hell, wishes sometimes come true.
2017-02-09T19:10:52Z phoe: ...today I learned about LOOP-FINISH.
2017-02-09T19:10:54Z phoe: clhs loop-finish
2017-02-09T19:10:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop_f.htm
2017-02-09T19:12:15Z _death: multiplying by 3 is optimistic.. usually I multiply by PI
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2017-02-09T19:21:53Z Guest85805: 9 11 attacks, Did USA do it itself or it just let it happen?
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2017-02-09T19:23:00Z phoe: Has anyone around here actually used the function CLRHASH?
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2017-02-09T19:24:27Z phoe: Ooh, I will actually want to hyperlink ALL the format controls and loop keywords to their respective CLUS pages.
2017-02-09T19:25:10Z dlowe: phoe: all the time
2017-02-09T19:25:17Z _death: phoe: I use it a lot
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2017-02-09T19:25:42Z phoe: dlowe: _death: I haven't. And I haven't seen it in the code I've read until now.
2017-02-09T19:26:25Z Xach: phoe: i also use clrhash a lot
2017-02-09T19:26:43Z _death: phoe: for example I used it yesterday when writing that SEGMENT code... in order to "reset" the model.. which includes the frequency counts hash-table
2017-02-09T19:27:28Z phoe: Got it.
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2017-02-09T19:30:51Z dlowe: any time where you have a hash table with lots of aliases, you might need a clrhash instead of making a new one
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2017-02-09T19:32:54Z phoe nodnod
2017-02-09T19:33:07Z phoe: Looks like I didn't ever need to clrhash enough for me to find out about it before.
2017-02-09T19:33:58Z phoe: On the other hand - I peeked at the page for LOOP.
2017-02-09T19:34:02Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/Qtmmg6Q.png
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2017-02-09T19:35:42Z _death: looks like something that may benefit from lispy macros :)
2017-02-09T19:36:11Z Younder: phoe, You will love loop.. talk about a hydran monster. For each each head you cut off a new will emerge
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2017-02-09T19:41:43Z pareidolia: Does anyone know of a library that takes the gigamonkeys-binary-data approach to JSON? Describe a type of document, and then then parse and validate it into a datastructure?
2017-02-09T19:42:55Z phoe: Younder: I love loop
2017-02-09T19:43:02Z phoe: except now I need to parse its documentation
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2017-02-09T19:49:18Z phoe: Chapter Hash Tables pushed.
2017-02-09T19:49:33Z phoe: Should be visible on phoe.tymoon.eu in 10 minutes.
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2017-02-09T19:55:22Z _death: pareidolia: I've not seen one.. I guess you could start with json-schema.org and write code to Make the Dream a Reality.. ;)
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2017-02-09T20:06:25Z shka: pareidolia: i STARTED working on something like this
2017-02-09T20:06:41Z shka: it is not good by any stretch of imagination, but it is something
2017-02-09T20:06:48Z shka: https://github.com/sirherrbatka/json-schema-in-lisp
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2017-02-09T20:08:22Z pjb: phoe: (quick-install-all) then M-x find-grep  ~/quicklisp  for clrhash.  (Short answer, I did, in pgl).
2017-02-09T20:10:25Z phoe: pjb: wat
2017-02-09T20:10:32Z pjb: clrhash
2017-02-09T20:13:51Z Fare: there's an easy uiop bug, if anyone wants to take over some basic infrastructure.
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2017-02-09T20:20:27Z phoe: Fare: I would, but I'm working on CLUS at the moment.
2017-02-09T20:20:32Z phoe: Sorry.
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2017-02-09T20:23:05Z Fare: what's CLUS ?
2017-02-09T20:23:16Z Fare: is there also CLCA and CLMX ?
2017-02-09T20:28:39Z phoe: Fare: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php
2017-02-09T20:28:47Z phoe: no, there's no CLCA and CLMX unless someone creates them.
2017-02-09T20:28:51Z shka: Fare: essentially alternative to CLHS
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2017-02-09T20:29:29Z Fare: wow, there's a(n empty) section for UIOP in CLUS!
2017-02-09T20:30:36Z phoe: Fare: ah-ha!
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2017-02-09T20:31:59Z Fare: what will you put in it? extract signatures and docstrings? Maybe also the README ?
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2017-02-09T20:32:45Z Younder: REAMDE in CLUS noted ;)
2017-02-09T20:33:35Z phoe: Fare: yes, I'd like to.
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2017-02-09T20:34:14Z phoe: Basically it will be less "me" at this point because I plan on letting the Lisp community guide this once the specification for CL is more or less parsed.
2017-02-09T20:34:22Z phoe: But that's more or less how I imagine it.
2017-02-09T20:34:31Z Fare: Younder, REAMDE, as in, the famous ransomware virus?
2017-02-09T20:35:16Z Younder: Fare, it is also a new-york bestseller
2017-02-09T20:35:33Z travv0` is now known as travv0
2017-02-09T20:35:46Z Younder: by Nick Stvenson
2017-02-09T20:37:08Z Fare: Neal Stephenson
2017-02-09T20:37:29Z Younder: right, sorry about the tpo
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2017-02-09T21:09:23Z phoe: clhs loop
2017-02-09T21:09:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-02-09T21:09:35Z phoe: The CLHS section for LOOP grammar looks pretty terrible without formatting.
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2017-02-09T21:09:57Z phoe: Should I mark the LOOP keywords with bold font and/or a colon in the beginning?
2017-02-09T21:10:11Z |3b|: you mean removing the formatting looks bad, or that the original doesn't have enough?
2017-02-09T21:10:16Z phoe: without formatting, I mean - the original has none.
2017-02-09T21:10:31Z phoe: Which makes the grammar almost unreadable.
2017-02-09T21:10:32Z |3b|: well, it has some indentation :)
2017-02-09T21:10:36Z phoe: :P
2017-02-09T21:10:43Z |3b| doesn't usually have a problem with it, but could be better
2017-02-09T21:10:55Z |3b| isn't sure exactly what would be 'better' though
2017-02-09T21:11:40Z phoe: you have three kinds of symbols there
2017-02-09T21:11:44Z phoe: clauses, keywords, and variables
2017-02-09T21:11:45Z |3b|: but distinguishing terminals (= loop keywords)from other rules sounds like a reasonable start
2017-02-09T21:11:48Z phoe: ^
2017-02-09T21:12:07Z |3b|: yeah
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2017-02-09T21:13:11Z |3b|: distinguishing things that introduce a clause also sounds good, adds opportunity to add a note about formatting saying start clauses on new lines :)
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2017-02-09T21:14:33Z |3b|: possibly also links from uses of the grammar rules to definitions would be nice
2017-02-09T21:14:37Z |3b|: (or mouseover highlight, but that probably doesn't fit too well with wiki)
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2017-02-09T21:16:10Z phoe: I'd rather hyperlink it.
2017-02-09T21:16:45Z phoe: Since LOOP and FORMAT is complex, I actually want to go through all bits of code which refer to these two and hyperlink loop keywords and format controls to their proper definitions.
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2017-02-09T21:25:28Z aeth: What I like about do is I can do (macroexpand-1 '(do ((i 0 (1+ i))) ((= i 10)) (print i))) and (macroexpand-1 '(dotimes (i 10) (print i))) and (macroexpand-1 (macroexpand-1 '(dotimes (i 10) (print i))))
2017-02-09T21:27:22Z aeth: In SBCL, do is just a tagbody + go, with an outer let. dotimes is just a do that's roughly equivalent to writing it by hand (there's a NIL after (= i 10) and a type declaration) and macroexpand-1ing it twice just produces nearly identical (except for the type declaration) output as the by-hand do
2017-02-09T21:28:04Z aeth: Meanwhile the equivalent (loop for i from 0 below 10 do (print i)) isn't so easy to see what's actually going on in SBCL
2017-02-09T21:28:40Z Bike: but if you use slime macroexpand mode you just need to macroexpand loop-body
2017-02-09T21:29:33Z aeth: there's also an SB-LOOP::END-LOOP, a SB-LOOP::REALLY-DESETQ, and a SB-LOOP::END-LOOP in there
2017-02-09T21:29:51Z aeth: the do form uses psetq and return-from and go
2017-02-09T21:30:54Z _death: really-desetq is also expandable.. and end-loop is just a label
2017-02-09T21:30:57Z aeth: Anyway, the uses are different ime. I use loop mainly for collect (not do) and do mainly as a macro expansion target of a do-foo (just like dotimes in SBCL)
2017-02-09T21:31:24Z |3b|: phoe: i mean just navigating within the grammar, rather than going to the full details if that wasn't clear
2017-02-09T21:31:45Z phoe: |3b|: got it.
2017-02-09T21:31:51Z phoe: I want to go into full details though.
2017-02-09T21:32:00Z |3b|: yeah, having both would be good too
2017-02-09T21:32:00Z _death: but it's true that you usually want to use DO (rather than LOOP) in your own macroexpansions
2017-02-09T21:32:24Z aeth: Although it really does bother me that the naive "for i from 0 to 10" includes 10... even though (loop for i to 10 do (print i)) includes 0... So "below" is the keyword to make it work like how programmers expect it will work, not the more obvious "to"
2017-02-09T21:32:25Z |3b|: maybe link definition to details, and uses to definition? not sure if that would be more confusing or not
2017-02-09T21:32:47Z phoe: |3b|: I'll see about it
2017-02-09T21:32:55Z |3b|: maybe links + mouseover hacks at some indefinite point in the future would be best
2017-02-09T21:33:04Z phoe: nonetheless, hyperlinking this is going to happen after I finish with the spec.
2017-02-09T21:33:54Z |3b|: yeah, nice but low-priority :)
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2017-02-09T21:37:18Z phoe: haha, the spec actually has mismatched brackets there
2017-02-09T21:37:20Z phoe: clhs loop
2017-02-09T21:37:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
2017-02-09T21:37:22Z phoe: numeric-accumulation::=
2017-02-09T21:37:38Z phoe: I mean, not mismatched - misplaced
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2017-02-09T21:44:40Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/AEb7rxS.png
2017-02-09T21:45:20Z phoe: What does the {from form1}¹ mean? Specifically, the ¹?
2017-02-09T21:45:59Z phoe: That this subclause may appear either 0 or 1 times?
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2017-02-09T21:47:10Z |3b|: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/01_daba.htm
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2017-02-09T21:48:08Z |3b|: looks like 'must appear 1 time'
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2017-02-09T21:48:43Z |3b|: (but order is unspecified)
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2017-02-09T21:50:29Z |3b|: links to the grammar might be nice to add as well, at least for complicated pages like loop :)
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2017-02-09T21:50:45Z |3b|: grammar syntax i mean
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2017-02-09T21:51:26Z phoe opens up chapter 1 of compiled dpANS3
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2017-02-09T21:52:03Z |3b|: 1.4.1.2 specifically for grammar syntax, though others might need adjustment to match changes
2017-02-09T21:52:18Z |3b|: ('1.4.1.1 font key' in particular)
2017-02-09T21:52:36Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/yzbb6Tw.png
2017-02-09T21:52:43Z phoe: this last sentence on this screenshot
2017-02-09T21:52:53Z phoe: the superscript 1 means that this part is required to appear.
2017-02-09T21:53:16Z phoe: woah, it works!
2017-02-09T21:53:31Z phoe: (loop for x by 2 to 11 do (print x))
2017-02-09T21:53:47Z phoe: (loop for x by 2 to 11 from -5 do (print x))
2017-02-09T21:53:53Z phoe: I can permutate the subclauses and it works
2017-02-09T21:53:55Z |3b| 's test was (loop for i by 2 upto 10 from 0 collect i) :p
2017-02-09T21:53:57Z phoe: TIL
2017-02-09T21:54:25Z |3b|: probably should try on clisp too if you weren't, it is pickier about loop syntax
2017-02-09T21:54:43Z phoe: works
2017-02-09T21:54:53Z |3b|: (the MIT LOOP derived implementations (most of them i think) allow a bunch of invalid LOOP syntax)
2017-02-09T21:55:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Beach also has a loop implementation
2017-02-09T21:55:12Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, I know
2017-02-09T21:55:21Z phoe: I was at the ELS where he presented it, too.
2017-02-09T21:55:23Z |3b|: or at least invalid clause orderings, not sure about other aspects
2017-02-09T21:55:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think one of his goals was to be as standards-compliant as possible
2017-02-09T21:55:37Z phoe: |3b|: yes, I remember that
2017-02-09T21:55:43Z phoe: but the issue was with other kinds of clauses.
2017-02-09T21:56:46Z phoe: okay
2017-02-09T21:56:50Z phoe: enough loop for tonight
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2017-02-09T21:58:42Z _death: it explicitly says any order is allowed in http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/06_abaa.htm
2017-02-09T21:59:25Z |3b|: hmm, matters for side effects
2017-02-09T21:59:39Z |3b| suspects i wouldn't approve of code that relied on that very much :p
2017-02-09T22:00:35Z _death: why? it's just left-to-right as usual
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2017-02-09T22:03:11Z |3b|: probably also depends on how obvious the side effects were
2017-02-09T22:03:26Z _death: but.. this does seem to expose an ITERATE bug, or unexpected behavior :)
2017-02-09T22:03:28Z |3b|: if nothing else, there is a risk of someone reordering it for 'readability' or whatever
2017-02-09T22:03:45Z |3b|: (or to match some new coding standards, or whatever)
2017-02-09T22:04:00Z _death: (let ((x 1)) (iter (for i from x by (incf x) to 10) (collect i))) => (2 4 6 8 10)
2017-02-09T22:05:05Z |3b|: also, side effects from BY wouldn't happen left to right, so adds more effort to understand the whole thing
2017-02-09T22:06:02Z |3b|: sort of falls under the 'clever code is bad' objection
2017-02-09T22:06:07Z _death: what do you mean?
2017-02-09T22:06:21Z _death: (I agree that it's not idiomatic..)
2017-02-09T22:06:31Z |3b|: (not saying i wouldn't write it, just that i wouldn't approve if i thought about it)
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2017-02-09T22:07:27Z |3b|: (loop for x by 'side-effects to (side-effect1) from (side-effect2)  ...)
2017-02-09T22:07:39Z |3b|: SIDE-EFFECTS doesn't happen before 1 and 2
2017-02-09T22:08:01Z _death: it does
2017-02-09T22:08:18Z _death: that's what left-to-right means
2017-02-09T22:09:27Z prxq: real lispers use do*
2017-02-09T22:09:52Z |3b|: (actually i guess that clause needs a number for BY, would have to switch to list traversal)
2017-02-09T22:10:17Z |3b|: which can't be reordered
2017-02-09T22:10:26Z |3b|: so ok, i retract the statement since it doesn't apply :)
2017-02-09T22:11:06Z |3b|: but if it were allowed, it couldn't happen "left to right" since it happens during iteration while others happen at initialization
2017-02-09T22:12:08Z _death: I kind of see what you're trying to say, but kind of think you may be wrong ;)
2017-02-09T22:12:15Z |3b|: yeah, i just said i was :)
2017-02-09T22:12:27Z _death: for list traversal..
2017-02-09T22:12:42Z |3b|: can't reorder list traversal clause, so doesn't apply there either
2017-02-09T22:13:15Z |3b|: by (side-effects) would happen left to right
2017-02-09T22:16:00Z _death: yes
2017-02-09T22:17:11Z phoe: okay
2017-02-09T22:17:12Z phoe: good night!
2017-02-09T22:17:36Z PuercoPop: apropos edge cases in LOOP http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2014/12/loop-quiz.html
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2017-02-09T22:19:11Z _death: wonder if iterate will be fixed now :d
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2017-02-09T22:37:50Z trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8D4Xi/?raw=true << am I crazy or should this work?
2017-02-09T22:37:54Z trinque: running on sbcl
2017-02-09T22:38:42Z trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qvuim/?raw=true << I'm certain I've got the right instance.
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2017-02-09T22:53:14Z |3b|: trinque: not sure if that is supposed to work or not, but '(:after) seems to make it work for simplified version for me
2017-02-09T22:54:25Z |3b| wonders if sbcl should be complaining about not getting a list there or if MOP (or sbcl) extends it to have some meaning
2017-02-09T22:54:41Z trinque: ah! completely overlooked that
2017-02-09T22:54:45Z trinque: thanks for the second pair of eyes
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2017-02-09T23:51:28Z quadresce: What's the latest cool Lisp news?
2017-02-09T23:52:39Z Xach: I have a quicklisp.lisp bootstrap file that validates via pgp or sha256 all subsequent downloads
2017-02-09T23:52:51Z Xach: Next up is updating the client to validate all downloads in a similar way
2017-02-09T23:53:06Z Xach: and you can gpg --import quicklisp.lisp too!
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2017-02-09T23:53:16Z Xach: (well, when it's pushed out)
2017-02-09T23:53:20Z quadresce: Wow nice, that's really positive news
2017-02-09T23:53:46Z trinque: ^ somebody's rss reader just became self-aware
2017-02-09T23:53:56Z Xach: The hardest work is done. I have fairly simple, standalone implementations of all of openpgp and sha-N that I need.
2017-02-09T23:54:08Z quadresce: Xach, oh yeah, I was going to make gratuitous feature requests, like being able to bundle local systems! We wanted that @ work to do source release archival.
2017-02-09T23:54:27Z Xach: quadresce: show me that sweet quantum money and i can make it happen
2017-02-09T23:54:31Z fouric: quadresce: you get to use Lisp *at work*?
2017-02-09T23:54:43Z Xach: I think pretty much everyone in this channel does, right?
2017-02-09T23:54:49Z Xach: It's a condition of entry
2017-02-09T23:54:52Z quadresce: fouric, yeah! we actually just released a service written in it
2017-02-09T23:55:15Z fouric: Xach: I had to use C++ for my last project
2017-02-09T23:55:18Z fouric: kick me now
2017-02-09T23:56:03Z reepca` is now known as reepca
2017-02-09T23:56:06Z Xach: you've already suffered enough
2017-02-09T23:56:09Z fouric: hehe
2017-02-09T23:56:31Z fouric: I was actually not aware that any more than a fraction of the people in here use Lisp for work
2017-02-09T23:56:40Z quadresce: fouric, despite lots of talk about python on the front end, almost all of the stuff on the backend here is lisp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpoASc18P5Q (I'm the second to present; no talk about Lisp in the video)
2017-02-09T23:56:41Z fouric: I was under the impression that it was mostly for side projects
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2017-02-09T23:58:00Z fouric: (that message was supposed to come one earlier)
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2017-02-09T23:58:56Z Xach: Only the best
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2017-02-10T00:00:58Z fouric: Xach: to clarify, what's the difference between "file that validates via pgp or sha256 all subsequent downloads" and "updating the client to validate all downloads in a similar way"?
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2017-02-10T00:04:52Z Xach: fouric: quicklisp.lisp is the bootstrap file. it fetches a bigger client bundle that does a lot more. the client bundle has to be updated.
2017-02-10T00:05:13Z Xach: fouric: and i have to update metadata going back to 2010 so it can be checked for validity
2017-02-10T00:06:22Z _death: hmm.. what do you mean by "or sha256"?
2017-02-10T00:06:59Z Xach: _death: there is a pgp-signed file of checksum data
2017-02-10T00:07:25Z Xach: _death: the initial download fetches that info, then validates other downloads against the checksum
2017-02-10T00:07:29Z Xach: checksums
2017-02-10T00:07:48Z fouric: Xach: ah, I see. thanks for clarifying.
2017-02-10T00:07:53Z _death: ok.. so it's still verifying a signature
2017-02-10T00:08:00Z Xach: _death: yes
2017-02-10T00:08:13Z _death: good :)
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2017-02-10T00:09:03Z _death: but does it get the signature file from the same place?
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2017-02-10T00:10:39Z Xach: _death: you mean the foo.lisp.asc file?
2017-02-10T00:11:56Z Xach: for a given foo.lisp download
2017-02-10T00:12:04Z _death: I actually mean the public key
2017-02-10T00:12:37Z _death: is it hardcoded or fetchable from somewhere else
2017-02-10T00:12:40Z jasom: I used lisp at work once, my boss had me rewrite it in python :(
2017-02-10T00:12:54Z Xach: _death: the public key is embedded in quicklisp.lisp, which can (and should) be fetched via https.
2017-02-10T00:13:22Z Xach: In fact, I'd like to see if I can disable http access to quicklisp.lisp in my amazon cloudfront setup. I don't know if it can be done.
2017-02-10T00:13:48Z _death: ok, but https is not relevant if the server is compromised
2017-02-10T00:14:18Z Xach: Yes. Server compromise is not something this phase aims to mitigate.
2017-02-10T00:14:24Z _death: I see
2017-02-10T00:14:46Z _death: maybe in the future ;)
2017-02-10T00:14:56Z Xach: But, I will see about allowing an option to use a non-embedded key file. That is a good idea.
2017-02-10T00:15:29Z Xach: I am very open to discussion of any aspect of this plan, too
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2017-02-10T00:18:13Z _death: well, it's easy to overkill.. so I've no issue with taking it one step at a time
2017-02-10T00:18:31Z _death: and the users are assumed to keep up with quicklisp news
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2017-02-10T00:30:22Z _death: pgp itself can manage the keys.. though that may complicate matters for casual users.. if currently only your key is allowed then I guess others can't have their own dists..
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2017-02-10T00:31:38Z _death: there's also the issue of revocation/expiry etc.
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2017-02-10T00:41:00Z Xach: _death: the goal is to have a directory of trusted-for-quicklisp-use keys.
2017-02-10T00:42:23Z jasom: speacking from experience, any solution for data integrity that requires end-users to use pgp is a non-starter
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2017-02-10T00:44:04Z Xach: jasom: pgp the program, or pgp the technology?
2017-02-10T00:44:11Z jasom: Xach: pgp the program
2017-02-10T00:44:18Z jasom: or gpg or whatever
2017-02-10T00:44:21Z Xach: that was my experience with asdf-install.
2017-02-10T00:45:01Z _death: nitpick: not integrity, authentication
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2017-02-10T00:45:50Z jasom: _death: I don't see those as different, but yeah.
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2017-02-10T00:49:48Z _death: integrity is about making sure the data is not corrupted; authentication is about the the legitimacy of the source of the data
2017-02-10T00:51:58Z jasom: _death: I would argue that malicous replacement of the data is a form of corruption; just under a different threat model.
2017-02-10T00:52:07Z _death: so integrity alone can be solved by a checksum.. usually a solution for authenticity (e.g., a signature scheme) utilizes a checksum anyway
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2017-02-10T00:55:13Z _death: it's just how the terms are used in the field of security/cryptography
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2017-02-10T03:16:21Z shaftoe: i would love to see some more checksums
2017-02-10T03:16:30Z adlai: this is making no sense. i have a define-foo macro that exports the symbol. all the symbols are getting exported, but packages that :use this package, only see the symbols defined in an explicit call to define-foo, and not the ones from a macrolet
2017-02-10T03:16:32Z shaftoe: signing is the next step after that
2017-02-10T03:16:59Z adlai: the code that is causing this worked last time it ran, no code was changed, same implementation. wtf
2017-02-10T03:17:26Z adlai: the specific file containing/generating the definitions is https://github.com/adlai/cjhunt/blob/master/src/bitcoin/api.lisp
2017-02-10T03:17:33Z adlai is totally baffled
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2017-02-10T03:19:13Z Bike: "(export (defun ...))" oh no
2017-02-10T03:20:24Z adlai: this was least-effort code which "just worked" until it magically stopped
2017-02-10T03:22:45Z adlai: ugh. C-c C-c on a bunch of forms (the eval-when, and all uses of the exported functions) and now it works.
2017-02-10T03:22:52Z pjb: adlai: macrolets need to be evaluated.  Loading the file is not enough.
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2017-02-10T03:23:04Z adlai: pjb: it's in an eval-when
2017-02-10T03:23:20Z pjb: eval-when works only for toplevel forms.
2017-02-10T03:23:33Z pjb: clhs eval-when
2017-02-10T03:23:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm
2017-02-10T03:23:52Z Bike: macrolet gives toplevelness though...
2017-02-10T03:24:04Z adlai: yeah, i'm pretty sure toplevelness isn't the issue here
2017-02-10T03:24:35Z adlai: it actually seemed to have not run the eval-when at the first loading, nor after ,force-compile-system
2017-02-10T03:24:47Z adlai: but only after C-c C-c
2017-02-10T03:25:25Z adlai: clhs macrolet
2017-02-10T03:25:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
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2017-02-10T03:25:49Z Bike: this is hella not compiling and i don't even know why, what the hecks
2017-02-10T03:25:51Z pjb: When you load the file, the toplevel forms are evaluated.  You need to expand forms that will evaluate the export expressions at load-time.
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2017-02-10T03:26:27Z adlai: clhs 3.2.3.1
2017-02-10T03:26:27Z specbot: Processing of Top Level Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm
2017-02-10T03:27:41Z Petit_Dejeuner wishes more languages had standards.
2017-02-10T03:28:02Z adlai: Bike: are you referring to cjhunt or something else?
2017-02-10T03:28:12Z Bike: yours, yes. think it's mostly my fault though
2017-02-10T03:28:40Z adlai: it does expect to find a working rpc socket to feed it which commands to define
2017-02-10T03:28:51Z Bike: at compile time?
2017-02-10T03:29:04Z adlai: yes, it autodefines functions binding each rpc command
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2017-02-10T03:29:52Z Bike: well it expands into (defun ,command ,all-args ,(rpc "help" string) ...) so it's just to get the docstring?
2017-02-10T03:30:57Z adlai: pretty much
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2017-02-10T03:31:28Z adlai: (and the right number and optionality of arguments)
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2017-02-10T03:35:15Z adlai: wait, am i reading this right? what does the spec mean here: "In compile-time-too mode, the compiler first evaluates the form in the evaluation environment and then minimally compiles it. In not-compile-time mode, the form is simply minimally compiled. All subforms are treated as non-top-level forms."
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2017-02-10T03:35:29Z adlai: is it saying that the body of an eval-when doesn't count as toplevel!?
2017-02-10T03:35:55Z Bike: well, they only do sometimes
2017-02-10T03:36:29Z Bike: point 6 is what happens when it's not an eval-when (or locally, or whatever else is listed)
2017-02-10T03:36:29Z adlai: so the third sentence in that quote is only talking about n-c-t mode?
2017-02-10T03:36:43Z Bike: eval-when behavior is point five
2017-02-10T03:36:46Z Bike: with that helpful table
2017-02-10T03:36:59Z adlai: ok
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2017-02-10T03:39:49Z Bike: ok so your macrolet here only comes up with define-rpcs for command names that get a true second value from intern, do i have that right
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2017-02-10T03:40:40Z adlai: looks to be that way.
2017-02-10T03:41:14Z Bike: that second value is only true if the symbol already existed
2017-02-10T03:41:26Z Bike: but from a cursory look i don't see the symbols being in the package definition or anything
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2017-02-10T03:41:43Z Bike: do you know that the macrolet expands into not just a progn? (that's what it does here, but my package definition is made up)
2017-02-10T03:42:14Z |3b|: what are you trying to figure out the top-levelness of?
2017-02-10T03:42:16Z adlai: er. it's supposed to do the opposite. intern returns 2nd value nil, the or returns nil, the unless fails, and the form gets collected
2017-02-10T03:42:19Z |3b|: (and why does it matter?)
2017-02-10T03:42:43Z adlai: |3b|: https://github.com/adlai/cjhunt/blob/master/src/bitcoin/api.lisp
2017-02-10T03:42:59Z |3b|: right, you generate an export with no eval-when
2017-02-10T03:43:10Z adlai: there's an eval-when around the whole thing
2017-02-10T03:43:10Z |3b|: so it doesn't export anything until you load it
2017-02-10T03:43:17Z Bike: i think... i have lost it
2017-02-10T03:43:19Z |3b|: which has nothing to do with the expansion
2017-02-10T03:43:29Z |3b|: the defmacro is evaluated
2017-02-10T03:43:38Z adlai: Bike: it should collect the defining forms when intern's second value is nil.
2017-02-10T03:43:41Z |3b|: (which would have happened anyway)
2017-02-10T03:44:04Z |3b|: its expansion isn't affected by the eval-when
2017-02-10T03:44:34Z |3b|: expand to `(progn (export ,command ,package) (defun ,command ...))
2017-02-10T03:44:47Z cromachina: ah i do something like this for CFFI crap
2017-02-10T03:44:51Z cromachina: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338717
2017-02-10T03:45:18Z |3b|: or just export stuff manually, since user code won't use functions they don't know about anyway
2017-02-10T03:45:36Z |3b|: yeah, i guess quoting would help :)
2017-02-10T03:46:08Z |3b|: (where 'manually' can include querying the rpc and building a list that you paste into the defpackage)
2017-02-10T03:47:16Z adlai recalls, in shame, that the primary reason for expanding into (export (defun ..)) instead of two forms was not wanting the macrolet to expand into nested progns
2017-02-10T03:47:34Z Bike: that's not much of a concern
2017-02-10T03:47:42Z cromachina: yeah not like you see the expanded code
2017-02-10T03:47:54Z adlai: i see it in my mind!
2017-02-10T03:48:01Z cromachina: lol
2017-02-10T03:48:08Z Bike: give your compiler some credit
2017-02-10T03:48:19Z cromachina: do you see the resulting assembly too?
2017-02-10T03:48:33Z Bike: on particularly bad days
2017-02-10T03:48:38Z |3b|: so just make it a function instead and call it from the macrolet
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2017-02-10T03:48:53Z pjb: The problem with (export (defun )) is that now defun is not toplevel, therefore compilation-time effects cannot be taken into account by the compiler, therefore you will get warning about undefined function, and types, etc.
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2017-02-10T03:49:23Z |3b|: defun isn't required to have compile-time side effects anyway :p
2017-02-10T03:50:00Z |3b|: and you will probably end up with warnings anyway when someone reformats the rpc Help output :)
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2017-02-10T03:50:24Z Bike: this has been an important reminder of why doing practically anything with symbols is too clever by half for me
2017-02-10T03:50:35Z |3b|: alternately, just add the export in the macrolet instead, then no major changes and no double progn
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2017-02-10T03:50:59Z adlai: the export really belongs in define-rpc
2017-02-10T03:51:01Z |3b|: and don't start LOOP clauses on the previous line :p
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2017-02-10T03:51:56Z adlai: there are so many horrible things about this code that i dread to recall the mental state that produced it
2017-02-10T03:51:58Z |3b|: and even more so don't put the entire clause at the end of the previous line
2017-02-10T03:54:25Z |3b| is amused that the random :p mixed into the code doesn't change the meaning
2017-02-10T03:54:43Z adlai: oh that is cribbed shamelessly from zkat
2017-02-10T03:54:51Z |3b|: (as it would have on the next line)
2017-02-10T03:56:14Z cromachina: doesnt help that loop is so damn ugly :^)
2017-02-10T03:56:38Z |3b|: nah, loop is great :)
2017-02-10T03:57:00Z |3b|: though like the rest of lisp, good formatting is important for readability
2017-02-10T03:58:57Z adlai: bad formatting is important for job security theatre
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2017-02-10T04:00:00Z |3b| supposes there is also the ugly option of exporting the symbols during macroexpansion :p (make sure to specify a package for that though)
2017-02-10T04:02:18Z adlai thanks |3b| for the winning suggestion, time to cook breakfast so i can fail the physics exam on a full stomach
2017-02-10T04:03:06Z quadresce: F = ma
2017-02-10T04:03:09Z quadresce: E = mc^2
2017-02-10T04:03:13Z quadresce: hth
2017-02-10T04:03:43Z pjb: PV=nRT
2017-02-10T04:04:10Z quadresce: (QL:QUICKLOAD :TRIVIAL-PHYSICS)
2017-02-10T04:04:11Z quadresce: I kid
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2017-02-10T04:06:09Z adlai: ahh, this is http://paste.lisp.org/display/338718
2017-02-10T04:07:12Z adlai: one level below trivial-physics, which should at the very least include both of quadresce's eqns
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2017-02-10T04:32:06Z Fare: Looking for feedback on this paper: "From Software Creationism to Software Evolutionism" https://github.com/fare/evo2017
2017-02-10T04:34:06Z shaftoe: what's the history behind the "trivial-" namespace?
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2017-02-10T04:34:21Z Bike: hubris
2017-02-10T04:35:11Z Bike: based on mathematics' frequent use of "trivial", i figured
2017-02-10T04:35:28Z aeth: but... everything is trivial then
2017-02-10T04:36:05Z Bike: uh yeah haven't you ever read ecclesiastes
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2017-02-10T04:36:54Z quadresce: shaftoe, as I understand it, TRIVIAL-* are libraries with relatively mindless portability definitions
2017-02-10T04:37:12Z quadresce: the library is "trivial" in the sense it is just a proxy for the complicated stuff
2017-02-10T04:37:17Z shaftoe: i always assumed trivial was another way of saying "this isn't intended to be robust, it was done in a weekend"
2017-02-10T04:37:45Z shaftoe: ie, self-deprecating
2017-02-10T04:37:47Z quadresce: no, i never took it that way. i always took it to mean "portability-library-X"
2017-02-10T04:37:58Z shaftoe: "how to do something easy" ?
2017-02-10T04:38:02Z Bike: Fare: i know this is a bit facile, but this is kind of verging into temple os territory, you know?
2017-02-10T04:38:06Z quadresce: shaftoe, no
2017-02-10T04:38:11Z Bike: quadresce's understanding is mine
2017-02-10T04:38:17Z |3b|: "how to do things that are already done" :p
2017-02-10T04:38:20Z aeth: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html
2017-02-10T04:38:23Z aeth: just search for trivial-
2017-02-10T04:38:31Z |3b|: (but don't have the same names everywhere)
2017-02-10T04:38:33Z aeth: some look like portability libraries, some look like tiny feature libraries
2017-02-10T04:39:21Z |3b|: meaning has probably expanded over time as well
2017-02-10T04:39:23Z aeth: trivial-garbage vs trivial-irc
2017-02-10T04:39:27Z quadresce: aeth, unfortunate :)
2017-02-10T04:39:48Z |3b|: so some of each
2017-02-10T04:39:49Z shaftoe: so trivial implies that the library should work across lisp implementations?
2017-02-10T04:39:59Z aeth: every package that doesn't begin with cl- or trivial- should be renamed imo
2017-02-10T04:40:02Z aeth: ;-)
2017-02-10T04:40:21Z |3b| doesn't think it implies much of anything useful
2017-02-10T04:40:23Z shaftoe: i never both testing with anything other than sbcl... :P
2017-02-10T04:40:27Z aeth: there's no guarantee
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2017-02-10T04:40:31Z quadresce: shaftoe, well that's the meaning I take & prefer, but as aeth points out, that's not necessarily true
2017-02-10T04:40:48Z aeth: I'm guessing testing is done in this order: sbcl, ccl, ecl... and then maybe clisp
2017-02-10T04:40:49Z |3b|: more likely to go the other way, "simple portability lib" => trivial-
2017-02-10T04:41:03Z aeth: sbcl and ccl might be swapped for some people
2017-02-10T04:41:13Z aeth: and some people probably never go past sbcl :-p
2017-02-10T04:41:21Z |3b|: but also "minimal implementation" => trivial-
2017-02-10T04:41:32Z |3b|: (or simple implementation)
2017-02-10T04:41:36Z aeth: |3b|: right and they have opposite implications
2017-02-10T04:41:49Z aeth: a trivial- as in minimal library might be only tested on sbcl since it was written in a weekend
2017-02-10T04:41:58Z Fare: Bike, isn't temple os the ultimate creationist os ?
2017-02-10T04:41:59Z aeth: and a trivial- as in portability should be supporting lots of CLs
2017-02-10T04:42:16Z Bike: heh, well, yes
2017-02-10T04:42:20Z |3b|: right, i guess the main thing it implies is "not much code"
2017-02-10T04:42:37Z aeth: |3b|: but all code grows over time, there's probably several large trivial- libraries
2017-02-10T04:42:44Z Fare: one god writing directly in assembly. Over 13 years, so, layered creation paradigm.
2017-02-10T04:43:06Z |3b|: either just renaming impl specific things with minimal translation or shims for missing parts, or minimal features if it implements something new
2017-02-10T04:43:25Z aeth: if my trivial-foo bloated into a 10,000 line library, I'm not going to rename it because it would break things!
2017-02-10T04:43:37Z aeth: I wonder what the largest trivial-foo is
2017-02-10T04:43:50Z aeth: Is there a way to find out without downloading all of them?
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2017-02-10T04:45:41Z Fare: trivial- means it's supposed to be a thin layer of leaky abstractions over each implementation's divergent primitives, rather than robust full abstraction the semantics of which is implementation-dependent.
2017-02-10T04:46:09Z |3b|: Fare: is the ". And ..." an intentional stylistic choice?
2017-02-10T04:46:22Z Fare: i.e. it unifies the namespace and the easy cases, but not the semantics in the corner cases.
2017-02-10T04:46:39Z Fare: 3b: where?
2017-02-10T04:46:53Z aeth: Fare: so worse is better, then?
2017-02-10T04:47:03Z |3b|: every few sentences in the abstract of that paper linked earlier
2017-02-10T04:47:11Z Fare: i.e. trivial- libraries are what was wrong with asdf 1 that asdf 2 solved
2017-02-10T04:47:48Z Fare: 3b: maybe it's a gallicism.
2017-02-10T04:48:28Z Fare: aeth: yes, trivial- libraries are the worse is better of portability.
2017-02-10T04:49:22Z Fare: unhappily, uiop couldn't avoid some such abstractions
2017-02-10T04:49:46Z |3b|: could be, sounds pretty wrong to me (particularly for relatively formal text) as a native US-english speaker, though might work a bit better with other tones
2017-02-10T04:50:15Z Fare: to do better would have required major surgery and/or hitting posix directly like iolib
2017-02-10T04:57:42Z Fare:  3b: Thanks, I'll fix it
2017-02-10T05:00:02Z beach`: Fare: Yes, "..." in a text written in English looks like you didn't finish the thought.
2017-02-10T05:00:15Z |3b|: Fare: also s/atuned/attuned/ i think (in 1.1)
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2017-02-10T05:00:36Z loke is looking at various trivial- libraries.
2017-02-10T05:00:44Z loke: Seems like all of them so far are pretty small.
2017-02-10T05:00:45Z |3b|: beach`: the "..." was mine, i was talking about starting sentences with "And"
2017-02-10T05:00:55Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-10T05:01:19Z beach: Oh, I see.
2017-02-10T05:01:51Z beach: |3b|: There is no problem starting sentences with "And", at least not in general.
2017-02-10T05:02:14Z beach: |3b|: You may want to read Steven Pinker's recent book "A sense of style".
2017-02-10T05:02:29Z |3b| is pretty sure it was 'wrong' when i was taught, but that was a while ago and may be misremembered
2017-02-10T05:02:50Z beach: Not necessarily.  Acceptable style changes over time.
2017-02-10T05:03:02Z |3b|: yeah, that too :)
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2017-02-10T05:03:24Z loke: There is nothing "wrong" about "and" beginning a sentence.
2017-02-10T05:03:41Z beach: That's what I just said.
2017-02-10T05:03:51Z Fare: Depends what sentence. I was abusing it in the abstract.
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2017-02-10T05:04:10Z |3b| also notes that i didn't say it was wrong, just that it sounded wrong to me :)
2017-02-10T05:04:15Z beach: Fare: Yes, you don't want to do it too often.
2017-02-10T05:04:40Z beach: Fare: You too should read Pinker's book.  I think you would enjoy it.
2017-02-10T05:04:47Z |3b|: or sounded like a political speecch/preaching with lots of dramatic pauses for emphasis or something :)
2017-02-10T05:05:04Z loke: Biggest trivial- library I have found so far is trivial-ldap. It's 2007 lines of code.
2017-02-10T05:05:07Z Fare: 3b: there's a bit of that, definitely :-)
2017-02-10T05:05:10Z Petit_Dejeuner still has people chide him for starting a setence with "And"
2017-02-10T05:05:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: But apparently Also is fine.
2017-02-10T05:05:24Z loke: Second biggest is trivial-features at 1208
2017-02-10T05:05:57Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Those complaint come from people who wants to sound smart without actually being able to read.
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2017-02-10T05:06:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Well, I can't spell 'setence' so maybe they're right?
2017-02-10T05:06:51Z |3b|: Fare: yeah, that is why i was asking if it was intentional, since that tone might have been intended based on the content :)
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2017-02-10T05:10:21Z aeth: |3b|: okay so it looks like trivial libraries are small in size and have not yet become massive
2017-02-10T05:10:30Z aeth: although I suspect that if Quicklisp were the size of node things would quickly change
2017-02-10T05:10:47Z beach: Fare: In English it is more common to "associate <something> WITH <something-else>" than to "associate <something> TO <something-else>".
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2017-02-10T05:11:32Z beach: Fare: Definitely a Gallicism.
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2017-02-10T05:11:47Z beach: Fare: come back dammit!
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2017-02-10T05:12:46Z loke: beach: "with", I presume?
2017-02-10T05:13:17Z beach: loke: I don't understand what you are asking.
2017-02-10T05:13:38Z aeth: prepositions... so difficult to get right
2017-02-10T05:14:02Z loke: beach: I was guessing “with” is more common that “to” in the context of the question you posed.
2017-02-10T05:14:10Z loke: s/that/than/
2017-02-10T05:14:25Z beach: I didn't pose a question.  I told Fare that WITH is more common.
2017-02-10T05:14:31Z |3b|: beach: reading more, i think my problem with starting sentences with And emphasizes the preceding pause too much (for me, i'm sure others read it in varying ways)
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2017-02-10T05:15:46Z beach: |3b|: I understand.
2017-02-10T05:17:46Z beach: Fare: Did you mean "it casts..." rather than "in casts..."?
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2017-02-10T05:24:20Z beach: |3b|: http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2012/01/can-i-start-a-sentence-with-a-conjunction/
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2017-02-10T05:25:49Z beach: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/words-to-not-begin-sentences-with
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2017-02-10T05:26:38Z |3b|: i might argue that i was being descriptivist rather than prescriptivist, so arguments about whether the prescriptivist rule is valid or not don't really apply :)
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2017-02-10T05:28:30Z beach: :)
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2017-02-10T05:43:30Z contrapunctus: o/
2017-02-10T05:45:26Z contrapunctus: So I asked about [:graph] and other POSIX char classes in cl-ppcre yesterday, and although I had given up and used a hacky workaround instead (and cl-ppcre's sexp syntax is still balls, I hope I'll make an rx.el-like library for it someday)...I didn't realize I could just use \S (that's :NON-WHITESPACE-CHAR-CLASS in the sexp syntax) instead.
2017-02-10T05:45:50Z contrapunctus: (which I found here - https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Common_Lisp/External_libraries/CL-PPCRE#Scanning_for_HTML_tags)
2017-02-10T05:46:30Z contrapunctus: hope it helps someone else :)
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2017-02-10T06:51:12Z shaftoe: radiance looks interesting
2017-02-10T06:51:50Z shaftoe: https://shirakumo.github.io/radiance/
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2017-02-10T07:02:40Z flip214: minion: memo for shinmera: https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ has the text "sbcl logo" instead of a picture.
2017-02-10T07:02:45Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shinmera when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-10T07:02:48Z flip214: thanks
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2017-02-10T09:24:20Z attila_lendvai: any slnet admins here? my mail to alexandria-devel is being delayed 72 hours ("Temporary MTA failure on relaying, From MTA() during fwd-connect", which doesn't make much sense to me)
2017-02-10T09:24:26Z attila_lendvai: s/slnet/clnet/
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2017-02-10T09:41:55Z Shinmera: flip214: I'm aware. https://github.com/Shinmera/portacle/issues/23
2017-02-10T09:41:55Z minion: Shinmera, memo from flip214: https://shinmera.github.io/portacle/ has the text "sbcl logo" instead of a picture.
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2017-02-10T09:48:04Z flip214: Shinmera: yeah, saw that too late. sorry.
2017-02-10T09:48:16Z flip214: and the evil issue is still open, too ;)
2017-02-10T09:48:43Z Shinmera: I haven't released a 1.0 yet after all.
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2017-02-10T09:59:24Z flip214: right.
2017-02-10T10:06:03Z _death: Shinmera: I liked the singing girl :)
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2017-02-10T10:21:29Z Shinmera: _death: You mean the blog post header? I didn't draw that.
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2017-02-10T10:45:20Z _death: Shinmera: I see
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2017-02-10T11:02:01Z phoe_: Yay! Chapter Iteration was pushed to http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/ .
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2017-02-10T11:02:24Z phoe_: Still buggy as hell, but mostly works.
2017-02-10T11:04:26Z _death: phoe: I get "This topic does not exist yet" for pretty much anything other than the todo
2017-02-10T11:05:21Z _death: phoe: well, I can get to some operators via the sitemap
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2017-02-10T11:07:28Z phoe_: _death: yes, I need to fix^H^H^Hdelete everything from the bar on the left
2017-02-10T11:07:39Z phoe_: because everything there is dead links.
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2017-02-10T11:09:24Z phoe_: _death: everything that was done is on the TODO page.
2017-02-10T11:09:27Z phoe_: and on the sitemap, yes.
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2017-02-10T12:51:17Z Fare:  beach, |3b|, thanks a lot for your feedback! I fell asleep last night while you were giving it, but I read your remarks in the #lisp logs this morning. If you have more, send by email!
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2017-02-10T13:46:39Z knobo: Do you guys guarantee any uptime for your services on opensource lisps?
2017-02-10T13:47:19Z z0d: there's usually an SLA
2017-02-10T13:47:25Z varjag has registered for ELS17
2017-02-10T13:47:30Z phoe_: varjag: yay!
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2017-02-10T13:52:15Z knobo: Does anyone have any great uptime report?
2017-02-10T13:52:38Z knobo: Usualy I only hear about uptime the times people have problem with it.
2017-02-10T13:52:48Z flip214: knobo: for real HA you'll need independent hardware, storage, networking, etc.
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2017-02-10T13:53:13Z flip214: it's not like you can guarantee 100% uptime on any service, if a simple power loss can take it down.
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2017-02-10T13:53:54Z knobo: https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/32241915/
2017-02-10T13:53:55Z phoe_: flip214: s/power loss/rm -rf on a wrong server/
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2017-02-10T13:54:28Z knobo: I know about the other (hw, disk, power supply, etc.) factors.
2017-02-10T13:55:16Z knobo: Hardware uptime is provided by virtual server provider.
2017-02-10T13:56:12Z flip214: knobo: good luck with that ;/
2017-02-10T13:56:13Z knobo: Even the maintenance of the virtual server (Oracle Enterprice Linux) will be probided by someone else.
2017-02-10T13:56:29Z knobo: flip214: what do you mean?
2017-02-10T13:56:30Z flip214: phoe_: well, PEBKAC can bring anything down
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2017-02-10T13:57:00Z flip214: knobo: unless you've got a provider who runs your "virtual server" on multiple physical machines in lockstep (which will be awfully slow),
2017-02-10T13:57:08Z flip214: you will experience downtime.
2017-02-10T13:57:21Z knobo: Anyway thoses issues are OT here.
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2017-02-10T13:57:43Z knobo: I'm looking in to for example sbcl now.
2017-02-10T13:57:45Z White_Flame: the main reason we lose an SBCL server is out-of-memory
2017-02-10T13:57:45Z flip214: just because the VM _can_ be migrated (eg. because the hypervisor gets a maintenance upgrade etc.), that doesn't mean that it _will_ be moved before any unexpected problems.
2017-02-10T13:57:48Z pareidolia: Lol. I once brought down a SLES9 installation by resizing an LVM volume with the LVM tools. Apparently on SLES9 this can only be done with YaST... instant kernel panic, dead.
2017-02-10T13:57:49Z digiorgi: i believe is only talking about the lisp implementation stability, not about the infrastructure
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2017-02-10T13:58:41Z White_Flame: but if you're doing things that don't arbitrarily munch unbounded RAM, I've never had any problems.  Been running SBCL-based multithreaded multiuser 24/7 servers for years
2017-02-10T13:58:42Z knobo: digiorgi: that's right.
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2017-02-10T13:59:13Z digiorgi: but if your worried, most services, should restart yours servers when a failure is detected (at least aws)
2017-02-10T13:59:45Z digiorgi: i don't think we have real data to share with you
2017-02-10T13:59:55Z pjb`: CL implementations don't seem unstable to me.  I usually have emacs with slime booted all the time, and I never noticed any problem from long-lived CL implementation, at least that can be attributed to the implementation itself.
2017-02-10T14:00:34Z White_Flame: the only problems I've ever had at that level was running a lisp on Windows where support is just beta
2017-02-10T14:00:59Z digiorgi: i think you should TEST it, make your instance stress to the maximum with huge sample data, and check the stack after some operations and that sort of things
2017-02-10T14:01:24Z Shinmera: I've been running my webservices on lisp for some years now and all the problems have been either due to the surrounding OS/hardware infrastructure, or due to my code being bad. SBCL so far has not caused me any grief.
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2017-02-10T14:02:23Z Shinmera: I think I had an uptime of around 200 days at one point, but then server upgrades screwed about.
2017-02-10T14:02:47Z White_Flame: I've had uptimes north of 3 years
2017-02-10T14:03:07Z Shinmera: Anyway, I'm not running a critical business, or any business at all, so I'm not extra careful either because my life isn't on the line.
2017-02-10T14:03:47Z White_Flame: I do run customer-facing business software on SBCL, no problems
2017-02-10T14:04:27Z Shinmera: And of course ITA/Google Flights run on SBCL in production and I think they would be quite concerned about stability :)
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2017-02-10T14:08:36Z knobo: wow, google Flights on sblc. I did not know that.
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2017-02-10T14:10:01Z phoe_: knobo: after it bought ITA, yes, it does.
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2017-02-10T14:21:49Z aeth: knobo: that's why Google has this: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2017-02-10T14:22:15Z aeth: Google style guides are on a git repository. An early Lisp version mentions ITA.
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2017-02-10T14:24:40Z KZiemian: aet: do you know that this guide is compatibile with Emacs Lisp mode conventions?
2017-02-10T14:25:20Z pjb: KZiemian: it is, but perhaps not entirely with emacs lisp programmers.
2017-02-10T14:25:36Z pjb: KZiemian: actually, I take google's lisp style guile with a big grain of salt.
2017-02-10T14:27:28Z KZiemian: pjb: can you explain for me, what is this grain of salt? I just want to be aware?
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2017-02-10T14:28:26Z phoe_: KZiemian: https://www.cs.umd.edu/~nau/cmsc421/norvig-lisp-style.pdf
2017-02-10T14:28:53Z KZiemian: phoe_: Thank you:).
2017-02-10T14:28:55Z phoe_: the Norvig/Pitman slides are a little bit dated (we don't need so many comments now that we have Git, for example)
2017-02-10T14:29:03Z pjb: First the limit on the line length.  100 seems too small to me. While I agree that some advisory limit should be assumed for team work, we have wider screens nowadays, and 132-columns line printers existed since forever.
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2017-02-10T14:29:18Z phoe_: but they are nonetheless very good even nowadays.
2017-02-10T14:29:44Z pjb: I'd say 132 as a minimum, I wouldn't find 160 to be excessive.
2017-02-10T14:29:58Z phoe_: pjb: the line length debate has been going on since forever.
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2017-02-10T14:31:01Z knobo: After reading the norvig lisp style guide, I realize how damaging it was to start out my professional career as a perl programmer. I might never 100% recover. But I hope so....
2017-02-10T14:31:50Z knobo: It's about 14 years since I coded perl.
2017-02-10T14:32:32Z aeth: pjb: The counter is being able to do a split screen. With my screen size, font size, and anti-aliasing I can fit in up to 4 columns of 92 character lines in emacs. With higher-res screens of the same size, more people would be willing up to use this font size... with 27" instead of 23" screens, they might use smaller fonts.
2017-02-10T14:32:52Z pjb: Well, this is a newer version of the style guide, it seems more acceptable than the first one I read when they just acquired ITA.
2017-02-10T14:32:54Z aeth: knobo: People who started with Python like me care about style too much, which I guess helps other people read my code :p
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2017-02-10T14:33:17Z aeth: s/willing up/willing/
2017-02-10T14:33:17Z varjag: phoe_: do you happen to know which time the activities start at the symposium
2017-02-10T14:33:27Z varjag: can't find it on the website
2017-02-10T14:33:29Z aeth: Every time I edit an IRC line I forget a word
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2017-02-10T14:34:15Z axion: If displays got increasingly wider, we shouldn't increase the line length.
2017-02-10T14:34:57Z axion: There is a point where it becomes difficult and slower to retrace the next line when reading a body of text.
2017-02-10T14:35:07Z aeth: pjb: Unless you have three monitors and run one portrait, splitting in 2 or 4 is probably the best you can do in emacs (I've seen people do this, I just don't have the budget and desk space... I can *just* fit two in)
2017-02-10T14:35:28Z pjb: Well, here, with a 24-point font, I have 226 character wide, so I could have two 112-character wide windows.  But I can reduce the font to a more readable size, and get more than 440-character wide!
2017-02-10T14:35:37Z aeth: Technically, I can split in 8 thanks to two monitors and C-x 5 2, but I only need to do that when I'm working with a wider file and so can't have 4 columns ime.
2017-02-10T14:35:37Z pjb: Single 27" 5K monitor :-)
2017-02-10T14:35:53Z pjb: Santa Claus was nice to me this year :-)
2017-02-10T14:36:09Z phoe_: varjag: it's too early to say that.
2017-02-10T14:36:22Z phoe_: You should mail the organizers perhaps - it's possible that even they don't know yet.
2017-02-10T14:36:26Z phoe_: But I guess 9 AM.
2017-02-10T14:36:45Z varjag: just thinking to book the flights/stay early, need to plan a bit
2017-02-10T14:37:49Z knobo: varjag: maybe you can use Google Flights to find your flight, that way you are using lisp to find your way to lisp conferance :)
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2017-02-10T14:38:07Z aeth: pjb: what I do (and I do need to update it again because it's been a while) is I link to the Google Common Lisp Style Guide and then diff it in my own CONTRIBUTING.md: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md
2017-02-10T14:38:09Z pjb: (/ 5120 8) #| --> 640 |#  With a classic 8x8 font, I could go to 640-character wide. or 8 windows.
2017-02-10T14:38:17Z varjag: knobo: afraid i have to use sas anyway :p
2017-02-10T14:38:34Z knobo: or norwegian, maybe+
2017-02-10T14:38:35Z knobo: ?
2017-02-10T14:38:38Z aeth: pjb: I suspect my guide is insufficient, though, because the one merge request I got required me to add the first part for commit messages... and I suspect every merge request will have to add more qualifications until there's a uniform style
2017-02-10T14:38:41Z pjb: aeth: well, I'd rather take a copy, to avoid the moving target syndrome.
2017-02-10T14:38:48Z varjag: knobo: they have no flights to brussels
2017-02-10T14:38:58Z aeth: pjb: I see no license information
2017-02-10T14:39:13Z aeth: maybe the repo has it
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2017-02-10T14:39:50Z pjb: aeth: Even if you count only lispers, they have more paid lispers to work on their software than you will ever have, so tracking their changes on their style guide will be quite a maintainace burden.
2017-02-10T14:39:55Z aeth: oh, it's CC-By, just only in the parent. https://google.github.io/styleguide/
2017-02-10T14:41:00Z phoe_: aeth: so it's not a non-derivative license
2017-02-10T14:41:27Z phoe_: so you can just make your own fork instead of diffing
2017-02-10T14:41:32Z aeth: yeah, but if I fork it then I have to update it to keep it fresh
2017-02-10T14:41:41Z phoe_: aeth: git merge
2017-02-10T14:42:04Z phoe_: just track changes on the upstream with some script that will alert you and produce a diff whenever it changes
2017-02-10T14:42:10Z jdz: Looking at side-by-side diffs on sources where people use lines that are more than 80-characters is always annoying.
2017-02-10T14:42:13Z phoe_: and I doubt it changes too frequently. it's Lisp after all.
2017-02-10T14:42:14Z aeth: My differences are due to (1) performance and (2) I only support three CLs (SBCL, CCL, ECL)
2017-02-10T14:42:18Z aeth: It's not a literal programming diff
2017-02-10T14:42:21Z jdz: I personally hate maximised windows.
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2017-02-10T14:42:49Z mrottenkolber: Hi y'all
2017-02-10T14:42:53Z aeth: I *agree* with the whole check-type over declare type, yet I violate that for the sake of performance because I have to.
2017-02-10T14:43:20Z pjb: aeth: better update your rules when you are ready to update your sources.
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2017-02-10T14:43:23Z aeth: jdz: when I do stuff like read source diffs I often have to make it double-wide
2017-02-10T14:43:34Z pjb: aeth: what if they add the rule that now all identifiers must avoid vowels?
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2017-02-10T14:43:50Z mrottenkolber: so... WCL/RTGC, wouldn't that combo be an attractive CL implementation to have? Are others interested in this?
2017-02-10T14:43:52Z aeth: pjb: this is Common Lisp, not JavaScript
2017-02-10T14:43:57Z pjb: Imagine the work to remove all the vowels from your sources, run the tests again, and correct all the bugs!
2017-02-10T14:44:07Z aeth: I don't expect radical changes every 6 months
2017-02-10T14:44:11Z pjb: :-)
2017-02-10T14:44:15Z pjb: How lucky are we!
2017-02-10T14:44:28Z aeth: *If* the Google CL Style Guide starts making radical changes every 6 months, *then* I will take on the burden of a fork
2017-02-10T14:44:37Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: it would, but I don't know it
2017-02-10T14:44:44Z phoe_: I tried to compile it once and failed
2017-02-10T14:45:01Z phoe_: but I've seen Wade do some work on refactoring this - I need to try compiling this again and trying to run the ANSI tests on it.
2017-02-10T14:45:17Z phoe_: maybe once I'm not in an ELS hurry.
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2017-02-10T14:45:55Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: but if you can make it compile and run, maybe you could try to run https://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/ there
2017-02-10T14:46:04Z phoe_: and report the results on GitHub.
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2017-02-10T14:47:24Z phoe_: ...and on Reddit, too.~
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2017-02-10T14:47:47Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: nobody except wade does, afaik. I played a bit with WCL and its obviously not complete, but say we find a demo that shows RTGC+WCL is desireable, we could think about giving him a hand.
2017-02-10T14:47:54Z contrapunctus: Is it a bad idea for a Lisp script to use ql:quickload to install dependencies?
2017-02-10T14:48:35Z phoe_: contrapunctus: yes.
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2017-02-10T14:48:43Z phoe_: it creates a ~/quicklisp folder.
2017-02-10T14:48:47Z phoe_: scripts "ought to" be standalone.
2017-02-10T14:48:52Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: but did you get it to run?
2017-02-10T14:48:58Z phoe_: can you get it to run the ANSI tests?
2017-02-10T14:49:13Z Xach: contrapunctus: consider the quicklisp library bundle option
2017-02-10T14:49:16Z phoe_: if you can make the tests run, then we (as in the Lisp community) will be able to patch the missing functionality.
2017-02-10T14:49:25Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: I don't think ANSI compliance/completeness is the primary factor here, we need to establish if the general design is desireable.
2017-02-10T14:49:43Z Xach: contrapunctus: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/bundles.html has more info. it will batch up a collection of libraries into a standalone thing that does not need quicklisp to load.
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2017-02-10T14:49:59Z paule32: hello guis
2017-02-10T14:50:03Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: there's no way to run most of the sane benchmarks if we have nothing to run them on though.
2017-02-10T14:50:41Z phoe_: The design looked pretty fun from what I looked and I'll be willing to contribute to it to make it ANSI-compilant.
2017-02-10T14:50:56Z contrapunctus: Xach: nice!
2017-02-10T14:51:01Z phoe_: Just to make it ANSI-compliant for the sake of it being ANSI-compliant.
2017-02-10T14:51:22Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: you realize that’s a lot of work right?
2017-02-10T14:51:44Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: d'oh
2017-02-10T14:52:02Z paule32: i have solve my problem with "global" variables: a) define it in functions (defun) and overgive the (list) to global variable, then i can iterate throu the list for needed stuff e.g. lists - words - letters
2017-02-10T14:52:17Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: it is a lot of work, but hey, everything starts somewhere
2017-02-10T14:52:28Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: I suggest we verify the design first. No point in implementing CL on something that can’t compete.
2017-02-10T14:52:37Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: how do you want to verify that design?
2017-02-10T14:52:54Z phoe_: I'll want to benchmark it, somehow.
2017-02-10T14:52:56Z paule32: what will mrottenkolber build?
2017-02-10T14:53:01Z phoe_: And the "how" is the question.
2017-02-10T14:53:12Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: i.e., wcl seems to be a CL -> C transpiler, so we can expect performance similar to ECL?
2017-02-10T14:53:15Z phoe_: paule32: we're talking about an incomplete Common Lisp implementation, WCL.
2017-02-10T14:53:32Z paule32: LispWorks ?
2017-02-10T14:53:36Z phoe_: No, WCL.
2017-02-10T14:53:45Z paule32: never hear from
2017-02-10T14:53:53Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: I'm particularly interested about this thing's garbage collector and whether it lives up to its marketing.
2017-02-10T14:54:11Z paule32: is common lisp ANSI ?
2017-02-10T14:54:27Z varjag: yes
2017-02-10T14:54:46Z phoe_: paule32: yes, Common Lisp has an ANSI standard
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2017-02-10T14:55:28Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: but "verifying" the design is something I'd like to do in practice. For this, I'd like a benchmark. And for a benchmark, I need at least a subset of CL that is working and sane. And for this, I need to be able to run the ANSI tests.
2017-02-10T14:55:35Z phoe_: That's my train of thought.
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2017-02-10T14:56:09Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: what's your opinion?
2017-02-10T14:57:33Z aeth: It's not enough to be ANSI compliant. It should also support certain not-required things that libraries expect. e.g. Most upgraded-array types are optional (except character and bit and maybe some bytes?)
2017-02-10T14:57:40Z pjb: mrottenkolber: mocl is another commercial option for CL -> C, but it doesn't receive enough work for a commercial product IMO.  Otherwise there's clicc, which is free software, and receive zero work.
2017-02-10T14:57:48Z aeth: And a lot of common optimizations that libraries might depend on are optional
2017-02-10T14:58:13Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: I am thinking ou would write an semi-artificial benchmark just to showcase RTGC. I doubt existing benchmarks/workloads can make use of this entirely new GC paradigm
2017-02-10T14:58:40Z aeth: e.g. clisp has (upgraded-array-element-type 'single-float) => T which is... well... afaik that's the reason why someone decided to use complex to represent 2D vectors once!
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2017-02-10T14:59:07Z aeth: (T is bad there, it means it's not upgraded)
2017-02-10T14:59:44Z White_Flame: tail recursion and multithreading are also extra-standard fundamental facilities that need fundamental support and are desirable
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2017-02-10T15:00:25Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: what I mean to say is, that if RTGC delivers, you might write different code for WCL than you would write for other CL implementations
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2017-02-10T15:00:54Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: so the first thing I would do is find out how that code could/would look
2017-02-10T15:01:04Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: there are two aspects here
2017-02-10T15:01:18Z phoe_: 1) whether WCL looks like a good CL implementation in the future
2017-02-10T15:01:27Z phoe_: 2) whether WCL has a good garbage collector
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2017-02-10T15:02:10Z aeth: One optimization thing that might make some libraries unrunnable is "no implementation is ever required to perform stack-allocation". http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_s.htm#stack_allocate
2017-02-10T15:02:26Z phoe_: aeth: ?
2017-02-10T15:02:26Z aeth: There could be a *ton* of garbage without that in some inner loop somewhere.
2017-02-10T15:02:29Z phoe_: unrunnable?
2017-02-10T15:02:31Z dlowe: if I were going to target another language, I would pick Go. They're doing crazy stuff with their gc.
2017-02-10T15:02:36Z phoe_: oh, that.
2017-02-10T15:02:47Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: I think 1 depends on 2, i.e. would be main selling point. because otherwise WCL is much like ECL (architectually)
2017-02-10T15:03:05Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: sure thing. write a proper benchmark then.
2017-02-10T15:03:27Z phoe_: but make sure it's proper CL so we can additionally run this on other CL implementations, too.
2017-02-10T15:03:30Z phoe_: we'll be able to compare then.
2017-02-10T15:03:48Z mrottenkolber: ack
2017-02-10T15:04:41Z mrottenkolber: I would like to probe for general interest in this GC design in the CL world, to justify the efforts, maybe open a GH issue asking anyone who is interested to ping in
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2017-02-10T15:05:12Z aeth: White_Flame: I'd add Unicode to your list, btw.
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2017-02-10T15:05:38Z White_Flame: GC is pretty orthogonal to CL, and CL implementations don't have super-advanced GCs compared to other high-profile languages. So GC work would certainly be interesting
2017-02-10T15:06:04Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: if anything, I need some help compiling WCL.
2017-02-10T15:06:07Z phoe_: the makefile seems broken.
2017-02-10T15:06:18Z phoe_: (cd src/build; ./compile-all)
2017-02-10T15:06:22Z phoe_:  /bin/sh: 1: ./compile-all: not found
2017-02-10T15:06:26Z phoe_: but the file is there, d'oh
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2017-02-10T15:06:57Z aeth: Oh, here's one more thing you might not expect that might hurt an ANSI CL: Their max array size can be 1024, and strings are arrays! http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_tot.htm
2017-02-10T15:07:47Z phoe_: ooh
2017-02-10T15:07:53Z aeth: There are probably some docstrings larger than that somewhere
2017-02-10T15:07:57Z phoe_: it has an undeclared dependency on TCSH, mrottenkolber
2017-02-10T15:08:08Z paule32: your patterns are "init", "init-app" ?
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2017-02-10T15:08:11Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: can you run the precompiled bin/wcl that’s in the repository?
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2017-02-10T15:08:27Z paule32: can i call "init" that does "init-app", too?
2017-02-10T15:08:56Z paule32: or how "make-" finds e.g. struct or symbol
2017-02-10T15:09:40Z mrottenkolber: phoe_: I think that’s how I ran it
2017-02-10T15:09:43Z phoe_: mrottenkolber: I'm not trying to.
2017-02-10T15:09:57Z phoe_: I want to build from source since it'll run the wcl binary nonetheless, I think wcl depends on itself to build.
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2017-02-10T15:10:57Z paule32: funny compiler-compiler
2017-02-10T15:11:13Z paule32: like bison/flex
2017-02-10T15:11:29Z phoe_: the fuck
2017-02-10T15:11:38Z paule32: hehe
2017-02-10T15:11:43Z phoe_: this repository is full of /home/wade/ paths
2017-02-10T15:11:51Z paule32: boost spirit?
2017-02-10T15:15:02Z phoe_: this *so* needs a cleanup.
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2017-02-10T15:17:12Z paule32: so? linux lib?
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2017-02-10T15:18:17Z paule32: from lisp to the system calls ...
2017-02-10T15:18:35Z paule32: i think there are an C binding?
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2017-02-10T15:18:42Z paule32: how shows C++ ?
2017-02-10T15:18:48Z paule32: give it tools?
2017-02-10T15:19:06Z beach: paule32: Lurk harder.
2017-02-10T15:19:31Z paule32: no, i would like to call .so lib symbol
2017-02-10T15:19:53Z paule32: .so are linux libs, created with C or other language
2017-02-10T15:19:56Z beach: Where is the maintained WCL repository?
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2017-02-10T15:23:00Z jdz: beach: I found https://github.com/wadehennessey/wcl
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2017-02-10T15:23:13Z beach: jdz: Thanks!
2017-02-10T15:23:27Z paule32: if you use C++ to create lib, and this lib, you would like to use with pascal (larzarus), you need wrap all functions because the demangle functions
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2017-02-10T15:28:25Z shka: paule32: it is not any different
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2017-02-10T15:32:00Z phoe_: beach: mrottenkolber: it failed to build for me.
2017-02-10T15:32:06Z phoe_: https://github.com/wadehennessey/wcl/issues/4
2017-02-10T15:32:49Z phoe_: beach: if you want to build it, build rtgc first.
2017-02-10T15:32:59Z paule32: shka: the problem is, you have to hold global objects in the lib, that you interact with C name, as e.g.: in C++ you can write code like in C - class Foo *foo = nullptr; ... extern "C" lib_function_name(int para1) { if (nullptr != foo) foo = new Foo();   foo->call_member(para1); .. }
2017-02-10T15:33:09Z phoe_: then, grep the wcl repository for "/home/wade/rtgc/" and change it to whatever path your RTGC is in.
2017-02-10T15:33:16Z shka: paule32: we all know that
2017-02-10T15:33:18Z phoe_: then, try "make cl" in the wcl repo.
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2017-02-10T15:36:54Z beach: phoe_: At the moment, I am just interested in how the code looks.
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2017-02-10T15:37:27Z dim: wow, user reports: WARNING: Couldn't re-execute SBCL with proper personality flags (/proc isn't mounted? setuid?) Trying to continue anyway.
2017-02-10T15:37:30Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/511
2017-02-10T15:37:38Z dim: I guess I should redirect to SBCL proper?
2017-02-10T15:37:41Z phoe_: beach: okay.
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2017-02-10T15:47:11Z shka: what exactly is WCL?
2017-02-10T15:47:30Z shka: http://www.cliki.net/WCL
2017-02-10T15:47:33Z shka: this?
2017-02-10T15:48:04Z phoe_: shka: you have the link there
2017-02-10T15:48:09Z phoe_: but, yes
2017-02-10T15:48:21Z shka: never heard about it before
2017-02-10T15:48:41Z shka: perhaps because it was not opens source
2017-02-10T15:49:42Z phoe_: shka: yes
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2017-02-10T15:50:40Z dlowe: wow, this is old.
2017-02-10T15:51:07Z dlowe: and impressive
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2017-02-10T15:51:53Z phoe_: dlowe: will be fun to clean this up and get it to work
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2017-02-10T15:52:41Z dlowe: Good luck.  A lisp that can make .so files is game-changing.
2017-02-10T15:54:08Z contrapunctus: dlowe: ECL doesn't?
2017-02-10T15:54:47Z dlowe: It can, but there was something that keeps it from, say, being the next SSL implementation everyone uses.
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2017-02-10T16:23:06Z jackdaniel: ECL being SSL implementation?
2017-02-10T16:23:10Z jackdaniel: O_o
2017-02-10T16:24:23Z jackdaniel: phoe_: regarding wcl, I've included how to build it here: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/tag/quarterly.html#orgheadline31
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2017-02-10T16:51:19Z macdavid313: Hi everyone :)
2017-02-10T16:51:19Z macdavid313: Is there a way to specify the flag, e.g. 'RTLD_GLOBAL', when load a foreign library using CFFI? Anybody might had experience with that before?
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2017-02-10T16:53:38Z PuercoPop: I downloaded wcl but segfaulted pretty quickly. Besides the real-time garbage collector the quickstart up would allow to realistically write programs for the CLI.
2017-02-10T16:54:34Z flip214: PuercoPop: an uncompressed SBCL image of ~110MB did a quick commandline-arg parsing ("--help") in 0.088sec for me
2017-02-10T16:55:01Z flip214: so the image size per se doesn't indicate a minimal run time
2017-02-10T16:55:07Z jackdaniel: usually people have quicklisp (thereof asdf) in their init, so startup seems slow
2017-02-10T16:55:27Z flip214: with a image the initfiles are skipped
2017-02-10T16:55:29Z jackdaniel: but without these all implementations start fairly quick
2017-02-10T16:56:36Z PuercoPop: flip214: just the startup of SBCL takes way more than that in my machine
2017-02-10T16:57:42Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: try `time sbcl --no-userinit --eval "(sb-ext::quit)"`
2017-02-10T16:57:43Z flip214: PuercoPop: startup as "sbcl" will parse your system- and user- .sbclrc
2017-02-10T16:57:58Z flip214: jackdaniel:
2017-02-10T16:58:01Z flip214: real    0m0,015s
2017-02-10T16:58:01Z flip214: user    0m0,004s
2017-02-10T16:58:01Z flip214: sys     0m0,008s
2017-02-10T16:58:36Z jackdaniel: flip214: I know
2017-02-10T17:00:13Z PuercoPop: Right, I keep forgetting the loading quicklisp part. 0.010s 0.012s
2017-02-10T17:01:04Z flip214: "good enough" ;)
2017-02-10T17:01:20Z flip214: jackdaniel: I guessed as much, just wanted to provide my data point for €0,02 ;)
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2017-02-10T17:48:26Z Younder: This damn GPS module is diving me crazy. It is made for a PI but used of a Jetson TX-1. It has a gpsd a GPS deamond. It is awkward to get to work on a pi, needing a USB to UART cable and damn near impossible on a Jetson.
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2017-02-10T17:52:12Z MrLawrence: Hi guys, I was wondering how I could go about doing a dolist but at the same time keep track of the current iteration, so a mixture between dotimes and dolist, is there something built in?
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2017-02-10T17:53:03Z shka: MrLawrence: use loop
2017-02-10T17:53:23Z shka: loop for can occur multiple times
2017-02-10T17:53:40Z shka: in other words you can perform list iteration and numerical iteration at the same time
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2017-02-10T17:54:24Z shka: in fact, some would never use dolist, instead almost just using loop every time
2017-02-10T17:54:42Z shka: and calling reduce/map from time to time
2017-02-10T17:54:49Z shka: MrLawrence: does that answer your question?
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2017-02-10T17:56:03Z MrLawrence: sort of, I still don't know how it would look on paper, I have a list of strings and I just want to iterate through each of them, keeping track of the current iteration, don't know how that would look
2017-02-10T17:56:13Z MrLawrence: loop syntax is a bit confusing
2017-02-10T17:56:27Z shka: it kinda is
2017-02-10T17:56:31Z shka: personally i prefer iterate
2017-02-10T17:56:31Z beach: (loop for s in strings for i from 0 do ...)
2017-02-10T17:56:37Z shka: but bare with me
2017-02-10T17:56:50Z shka: oh, well actually beach stole my thunder ;-)
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2017-02-10T17:57:50Z shka: MrLawrence: as you can see, for var in list (in is for lists!), for var from (from is for numbers)
2017-02-10T17:58:01Z shka: so just two for forms
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2017-02-10T17:58:20Z shka: it is not all that complicated
2017-02-10T17:58:23Z MrLawrence: thanks, I'll give it a try
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2017-02-10T18:06:46Z aeth: shka: I personally tend to use map nil more than dolist because it's dolist and not dosequence
2017-02-10T18:09:22Z dlowe: aeth: DOSEQ seems like something that would be natural in alexandria
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2017-02-10T18:09:38Z aeth: but it's not, there's just a doplist
2017-02-10T18:09:45Z aeth: (useful, btw)
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2017-02-10T18:20:44Z Bike: dlowe: to use extended sequences it would need implementation specificness, which i don't think they're into
2017-02-10T18:21:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I think SBCL is the only implementation with extended sequences, as well
2017-02-10T18:22:13Z jackdaniel: ABCL has extensible sequences too
2017-02-10T18:22:39Z shka: i wish it would be standard
2017-02-10T18:22:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: Really? When I looked around for implementations, I didn't notice that
2017-02-10T18:23:04Z Bike: it uses them for java sequences or something. it's in the manual
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2017-02-10T18:23:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: That would make sense.
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2017-02-10T18:24:24Z jackdaniel: extensible sequences are mentioned in the manual
2017-02-10T18:24:46Z jackdaniel: sorry, misread the last messages
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2017-02-10T18:30:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: Someone just needs to patch them into CCL
2017-02-10T18:30:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe I'll look into that sometime...
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2017-02-10T19:03:21Z aeth: and ECL, that's fairly common too
2017-02-10T19:03:42Z aeth: I mean, you'd have to patch them into ECL
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2017-02-10T19:18:50Z jackdaniel: its in the plans (but not sure when I'll work on this)
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2017-02-10T19:24:24Z akkad: jackdaniel: ping
2017-02-10T19:28:50Z aeth: jackdaniel: great
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2017-02-10T19:29:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: So, I know it's nonconforming to modify the CL package, but could could extensible sequences be implemented in a loadable system that replaces the relevant functions in the CL package?
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2017-02-10T19:30:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. would the implementations without extensible sequences react badly to having things like MAP overwritten?
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2017-02-10T19:30:33Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: possibly
2017-02-10T19:30:53Z aeth: Afaik iteration over sequences is something that is potentially very optimized when the types are known.
2017-02-10T19:31:05Z aeth: Probably up there with basic arithmetic
2017-02-10T19:31:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but that usually would be in terms of compiler macros?
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2017-02-10T19:31:46Z aeth: SBCL iirc uses its own special compiler macros for these, not the ANSI ones
2017-02-10T19:31:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: And other such things so, as long as you maintain the semantics of the functions, you might be able to keep most of the optimizations
2017-02-10T19:32:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, deftransform or whatever its called
2017-02-10T19:32:37Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: ECL has gray stream that way
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2017-02-10T19:32:49Z jackdaniel: you need to call a function to modify cl package
2017-02-10T19:33:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just to unlock the package locks?
2017-02-10T19:34:02Z aeth: actually, here is SBCL's map: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/seq.lisp#L1238-L1299
2017-02-10T19:34:03Z jackdaniel: it does unlock the package for time of replacement, yes
2017-02-10T19:34:31Z aeth: (Just M-. in slime for the various CLs you want to look into, and it'll give you the path to where map is defined, and you can compare if you want)
2017-02-10T19:34:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah
2017-02-10T19:35:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: The problem is that optimizations can cause issues when you're changing things like this
2017-02-10T19:36:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because you won't necessarily affect inlined code, that might be need to be modified
2017-02-10T19:38:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: this would also be relevant: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/compiler/seqtran.lisp#L136
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2017-02-10T19:41:32Z bsund: what is the thing with sbcl? it has really active development, but shouldn't lisp be figured out by now? also in my experience ccl have used less memory and been faster.. altough my benchmark was that ineffective recursive fib
2017-02-10T19:41:57Z aeth: hmm, speaking of ECL, ECL seems to have no performance with my game engine anymore (it doesn't really do anything yet). htop says 2%-3% CPU in SBCL, 5% to 6% CPU in CCL... 120% (!!!) in ECL.
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2017-02-10T19:42:25Z aeth: So something I did recently, probably inlining the quaternions, killed performance on ECL when it helped performance on the rest
2017-02-10T19:42:55Z aeth: (I'm not sure how htop gets 120%... estimate? multiple threads? Intel CPU boost?)
2017-02-10T19:43:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: bsund: I suspect that you aren't doing something right, sbcl is known for being really fast for numeric stuff.  Try adding (declare (optimize (speed 3))) at the top of the function body
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2017-02-10T19:44:26Z Bike: "the thing" is a bit vague, unless you are referring to icelandic legislative bodies
2017-02-10T19:44:32Z aeth: bsund: I literally just measured SBCL being about half the CPU load as CCL on numerical-heavy code as you were making your statement
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2017-02-10T19:45:21Z aeth: I thought the common wisdom of #lisp is that SBCL is faster and CCL has a better GC
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2017-02-10T19:46:07Z bobbysmith007: whats the correct incantation to turn an adjustable array of characters into a simple-string?
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2017-02-10T19:46:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Try coerce, maybe?
2017-02-10T19:46:30Z Bike: yeah, probably (coerce whatever 'simple-string)
2017-02-10T19:46:47Z aeth: oh, and one possible alterantive to ECL eating up all of my CPU (and possibly more plausible?) is that it for some reason doesn't vsync even when (1) SDL tells it to or even (2) I tell nvidia-settings to vsync everything
2017-02-10T19:47:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you add a tiny sleep does the cpu usage drop again?
2017-02-10T19:47:22Z aeth: checking
2017-02-10T19:47:32Z bobbysmith007: coerce seems to have done it! thanks (I was coerce to 'string instead of 'simple-string)
2017-02-10T19:49:43Z bsund: i think that fib was mostly pushing things trough recursion not much calulations, maybe it was the "overhead" from recursion in that example? so simple is faster, i dunno
2017-02-10T19:49:56Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: yes! I added a (sleep (/ 60f0)) and it reduced CPU usage to "only" 80%
2017-02-10T19:50:01Z Bike: what example are you talking about
2017-02-10T19:50:20Z aeth: (sorry, 77%)
2017-02-10T19:50:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: bsund: is your fib implementation tail recursive?
2017-02-10T19:50:31Z bsund: Bike: a straight forward fib, i dunno if i can find it
2017-02-10T19:50:31Z Bike: basic recursive fibonacci is a bit difficult to optimzie since it's still going to have to distinguish between fixnums and bignums (and do bignum arithmetic)
2017-02-10T19:50:39Z bsund: fiddlerwoaroof: i don't think it was
2017-02-10T19:50:44Z Bike: regardless of how smart sbcl may be, i mean
2017-02-10T19:51:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: interesting, it still seems comparatively inefficient
2017-02-10T19:51:07Z Bike: if you actually want a fast fib fare's article is good (spoiler: don't write it recursively)
2017-02-10T19:51:43Z bsund: it it sometimes used to show the concepts of recursion although it is pretty stupid and a tail-recursive/loop would be much better
2017-02-10T19:51:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: For all three times you actually need fib to be fast.
2017-02-10T19:51:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: The other trick is to memoize the recursive version
2017-02-10T19:52:16Z Bike: bsund: to show, yeah, but if you want it to optimize...
2017-02-10T19:52:34Z quadresce: Bike, what've you been hacking on lately?
2017-02-10T19:53:01Z Bike: i've been working on cleavir. have an els paper on type inference hopefully.
2017-02-10T19:53:08Z aeth: bsund: Imo, what's more appropriate to benchmark numerical performance is to do operations with floats and with upgraded simple-arrays of floats. Or pick things that will stay as fixnums, but then SBCL has a bit of an advantage because it has the largest fixnum (signed-byte 63) of the implementations that I've checked
2017-02-10T19:53:24Z Bike: next i was going to do escape analysis. weirder project would be to implement something like system f for lisp
2017-02-10T19:53:38Z aeth: s/then SBCL/then 64-bit SBCL/
2017-02-10T19:53:40Z aeth: (obviously)
2017-02-10T19:54:43Z aeth: I suspect benchmarks would show clisp <<< most lisps < ccl < sbcl on most numerical tasks
2017-02-10T19:55:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: does clisp have a compiler, or is it just an intepreter?
2017-02-10T19:55:36Z aeth: (clisp has a tiny fixnum, and doesn't upgrade single-float or double-float arrays, and probably a bunch of other things that makes it really bad for anything numerical)
2017-02-10T19:55:41Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: it has its own VM (bytecode), and has JIT target
2017-02-10T19:55:44Z jackdaniel: via lightning
2017-02-10T19:55:45Z bsund: clisp was weird i think
2017-02-10T19:55:51Z phoe: aeth: my lisp has longer fixnums than yours
2017-02-10T19:56:00Z jackdaniel: here are benchmarks: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/benchmarks/2016-05-bench-all.html
2017-02-10T19:56:07Z jackdaniel: I did them year ago or something
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2017-02-10T19:56:38Z jackdaniel: note that ecl excels at bignums thanks to gmp
2017-02-10T19:56:42Z quadresce: Bike, awesome, any draft we can read?
2017-02-10T19:56:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: CCL beats everyone on compilation speed :)
2017-02-10T19:56:44Z aeth: phoe: I'm just saying that it's hard to do an apples-to-apples fixnum comparison when it's usually 61-63 bits and in clisp iirc 49
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2017-02-10T19:57:08Z quadresce: jackdaniel, can we get MPFR in ECL too? Can LONG-FLOAT be an arbitrary precision float?
2017-02-10T19:57:08Z Bike: quadresce: it's in beach's repo, or i could wire you a pdf if you can't build it
2017-02-10T19:57:15Z aeth: now single-float on a 64-bit lisp should be a very good apples-to-apples for comparisons
2017-02-10T19:57:20Z quadresce: Bike, I'll look. I can probably build it.
2017-02-10T19:57:33Z jackdaniel: quadresce: mpfr is gmp fork, right? ECL may be built with mpfr
2017-02-10T19:57:45Z Bike: it's multi precision floats, yeah?
2017-02-10T19:57:49Z jackdaniel: regarding arbitrary floats, it would need adding the type to ECL and implementing it
2017-02-10T19:57:52Z Bike: i thought clisp was the only thing with those
2017-02-10T19:57:55Z quadresce: jackdaniel, no it is not. MPFR is correctly rounded arbitrary precision floats.
2017-02-10T19:57:57Z jackdaniel: (like implementing the glue)
2017-02-10T19:58:09Z jackdaniel: quadresce: ah, right
2017-02-10T19:58:16Z quadresce: GMP has arb prec floats, but IIRC cares less about things like rounding
2017-02-10T19:58:28Z jackdaniel: well, there is nothing technical what would prevent such addition
2017-02-10T19:58:40Z pjb: jackdaniel: reals would be more intenresting, but they wouldn't fit well in the CL numeric tower.
2017-02-10T19:58:53Z quadresce: reals would probably not be more interesting
2017-02-10T19:58:58Z quadresce: you can't do reals anyway
2017-02-10T19:59:03Z pjb: You can: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1230763
2017-02-10T19:59:04Z quadresce: you can only do some computable subset
2017-02-10T19:59:08Z jackdaniel: I'm occupied with refactoring the compiler now, and there is a lot of urgent tasks to do
2017-02-10T19:59:32Z pjb: quadresce: all real numbers are computable, up to some precision.
2017-02-10T19:59:36Z quadresce: pjb, that is still a computable subset generated by some algebra
2017-02-10T19:59:42Z quadresce: pjb, that is absolutely FALSE
2017-02-10T19:59:48Z quadresce: almost all real numbers are not computable
2017-02-10T19:59:48Z pjb: Go read that paper.
2017-02-10T19:59:58Z quadresce: pjb, go read an analysis book
2017-02-10T20:00:06Z pjb: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/mathematical-structures-in-computer-science/article/div-classtitlereallib-an-efficient-implementation-of-exact-real-arithmeticdiv/2DC67F19EC2AA2F28F93460BE0FBF5D1
2017-02-10T20:00:17Z aeth: bsund: oh, and Lisp isn't "figured out" by now because a lot of the compiler stuff really applies to any language, and Lisps generally lack the programmerpower that a lot of compilers have for more major languages
2017-02-10T20:00:29Z quadresce: pjb, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number#Countable_but_not_computably_enumerable
2017-02-10T20:00:35Z aeth: There's probably plenty of room to make any Lisp implementation's numerical code faster
2017-02-10T20:00:36Z Bike: quadresce: iirc that thing computes bounded rangey things, obviously it doesn't exactly represent all reals
2017-02-10T20:00:53Z quadresce: pjb, the computable numbers are countable and the reals are not countable, therefore there are an uncountable number of uncomputable reals
2017-02-10T20:00:55Z quadresce: Bike, yes
2017-02-10T20:01:24Z jackdaniel: quadresce: regarding long-float, this position is occupied by long double in ECL
2017-02-10T20:01:38Z quadresce: jackdaniel, Is that a 128-bit float?
2017-02-10T20:01:39Z Bike: ext:longer-float
2017-02-10T20:01:57Z jackdaniel: quadresce: if supported by a platform - yes
2017-02-10T20:02:09Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: what's interesting is most of the things that I could think of that would mess with ECL (or any CL, really) are done before the game loop runs... so I'm stumped
2017-02-10T20:02:23Z quadresce: jackdaniel, hm, I wonder who uses those.
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2017-02-10T20:02:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: jackdaniel: it would be interesting to have more benchmarks with a longer runtime
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2017-02-10T20:03:28Z jackdaniel: fiddlerwoaroof: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ansi-test/cl-bench
2017-02-10T20:04:28Z jackdaniel: quadresce: me too :) they surely introduce some kludges for cross compilation
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2017-02-10T20:05:09Z quadresce: jackdaniel, CLISP is the only implementation right now I can run some mathematical codes. would be nice to have other impls.
2017-02-10T20:05:22Z phoe: quadresce: what do you mean?
2017-02-10T20:05:44Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: oh I think I see what's going on, ECL *really* hates my quaternion multiplication
2017-02-10T20:05:58Z quadresce: phoe, I have some arbitrary precision linear algebra stuff to compute some properties of lattices, and CLISP is the only arbitrary precision floating point-supporting-native implementation
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2017-02-10T20:06:13Z aeth: I time the quaternion multiplication and I get 10484306608 bytes consed
2017-02-10T20:06:15Z jackdaniel: quadresce: I would accept addition for arbitrary floats, I'm just fully loaded atm – creating a feature request on gitlab will certainly prevent me from forgeting it though
2017-02-10T20:06:20Z quadresce: yeah
2017-02-10T20:06:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: yay
2017-02-10T20:06:28Z aeth: 2^33
2017-02-10T20:06:31Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-02-10T20:06:38Z quadresce: aeth, quaternion multiplication should not cons at all. ;)
2017-02-10T20:06:41Z aeth: wait
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2017-02-10T20:06:47Z aeth: I think it's a problem with #'time
2017-02-10T20:06:52Z aeth: (time (+ 1 1)) is also doing that
2017-02-10T20:08:28Z aeth: quadresce: quaternion* allocates one quaternion, quaternion*-into! doesn't allocate anything because it just replaces the target quaternion.
2017-02-10T20:09:02Z aeth: technically, I was timing the latter
2017-02-10T20:10:10Z jackdaniel: I'll read the logs later, o/
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2017-02-10T20:13:14Z aeth: Interesting, it looks like my quaternion*-into! allocates "96 bytes of memory" in CCL so maybe only SBCL is okay with my shortcut (to avoid code duplication) of calling the inline quaternion*, declaring the product dynamic-extent, and then (replace result-q product)
2017-02-10T20:14:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: You might look into CCL's manual about block compilation
2017-02-10T20:14:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: Oops, I'm confusing ccl and cmucl, I think
2017-02-10T20:14:46Z aeth: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/2f7c9d2bf19c7b275ff93a6e4e7c22fbdfe48848/math/quaternion.lisp#L69-82
2017-02-10T20:15:22Z contrapunctus: I get this from my script (which was working just fine earlier today) - I think it happens when trying to load any libraries - http://ix.io/1T1F
2017-02-10T20:15:23Z aeth: this is what I currently do. I think I'll restore the let statement to quaternion*, i.e. just bind a q1-x, a q1-y, etc.
2017-02-10T20:15:24Z Bike: i don't think block compilation would particularly help, the compiler already knows about the inline definition
2017-02-10T20:15:33Z Bike: dynamic extent is just kind of weird
2017-02-10T20:16:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was just thinking that an implementation with a block compilation switch might inline more aggressively inside a block
2017-02-10T20:17:01Z aeth: speaking of inlining, where do I actually raise sb-ext:*inline-expansion-limit* to get it to not complain about having so many inlines?
2017-02-10T20:17:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: Maybe the asd?
2017-02-10T20:17:23Z aeth: I was thinking that, but I'm not sure.
2017-02-10T20:18:19Z Bike: :around in perform or whatever the equivalent is in new asdf
2017-02-10T20:18:26Z Bike: is what comes to mind anyhow
2017-02-10T20:18:56Z Bike: just doing it at the beginning and the end of the file might help, but then it gets weird with unwind protect
2017-02-10T20:19:21Z aeth: *foos* in general also are strange when used with threads iirc
2017-02-10T20:19:27Z TruePika has started reading the hyperspec on the bus instead of CLQR
2017-02-10T20:19:33Z aeth: and unfortunately I have to put it in a separate thread when I use cl-sdl2
2017-02-10T20:19:36Z Xach: contrapunctus: that looks like an issue with a distro package version of asdf
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2017-02-10T20:19:51Z TruePika: slightly less portable, but far more educational
2017-02-10T20:20:03Z Bike: aeth: you're doing it for the compiler
2017-02-10T20:20:29Z aeth: Bike: right, which confuses me even more as to where it goes
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2017-02-10T20:21:18Z TruePika: also having a REPL available (since I have both CCL and CLisp under Windows; can't rely on VM when portable since sleep/hibernate seems to break its sshd)
2017-02-10T20:21:23Z Bike: also did you try just using let bindings
2017-02-10T20:21:28Z aeth: Also everything can be compiled 3 times to three places... ~/.cache/common-lisp by ASDF, the actual directory itself by C-c C-k, and /tmp by C-c C-c
2017-02-10T20:21:31Z contrapunctus: Xach: I don't understand what brought this about - I didn't make any upgrades or removals today
2017-02-10T20:21:40Z aeth: Bike: let bindings will fix that, but it will probably pop up again somewhere else
2017-02-10T20:22:18Z Bike: well, try putting (eval-when all (setf ...)) in the file and see if that does it
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2017-02-10T20:25:42Z TruePika: meh, LOOP FOR ON doesn't use an empty cons
2017-02-10T20:26:41Z TruePika: ...
2017-02-10T20:26:44Z aeth: okay, first I ran (trivial-benchmark:with-timing on it and using let there has basically no performance impact in SBCL, which is good
2017-02-10T20:26:51Z Xach: contrapunctus: I don't know, sorry. But that is what the pathname in the error indicates.
2017-02-10T20:26:59Z TruePika: meh, and I can't rplacd NIL
2017-02-10T20:27:08Z aeth: and using let reduces the inlines just enough to not get the warning
2017-02-10T20:27:32Z TruePika: trying to write a function which adds entries to a list such that the entries are sorted by a specific key
2017-02-10T20:27:51Z phoe: TruePika: what's your problem with LOOP?
2017-02-10T20:28:00Z Bike: as far as i remember it should reduce the inlines from, like, 256 to 64
2017-02-10T20:28:21Z TruePika: meh, too lazy to paste this
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2017-02-10T20:28:42Z TruePika: ...I could just check for nilness of cdr
2017-02-10T20:28:52Z TruePika: and special-case the empty list
2017-02-10T20:29:02Z TruePika: *empty input list
2017-02-10T20:29:52Z aeth: Bike: yes, but because the limit is 200 (per function, including inlines of its inlines?) it'll probably pop up again in a more complicated function... I guess I'll worry about it when I get there
2017-02-10T20:30:04Z pjb: TruePika: and what about the atomicity of cdr?
2017-02-10T20:30:09Z pjb: Use endp, not null.
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2017-02-10T20:31:06Z TruePika: pjb: CLHS: endp: Returns _true_ if _list_ is the _empty list_.
2017-02-10T20:31:37Z TruePika: (endp '(1)) => NIL
2017-02-10T20:32:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: TruPika: the point is that the name describes your intention. So, you'd do (endp (cdr '(1)))
2017-02-10T20:32:09Z TruePika: I'm checking the cdr of the current list cons (I'm iterating with ON so I have a reference to the cons, hopefully)
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2017-02-10T20:32:25Z pjb: TruePika: compare: (null (cdr '(1 . 2)))  (endp (cdr '(1 . 2)))
2017-02-10T20:32:26Z TruePika: the cons bound via ON is the actual cons, right, and not a copy?
2017-02-10T20:32:41Z TruePika: I don't have a dotted list, though, it is a proper list
2017-02-10T20:33:31Z TruePika: I'm basically optimizing (sort (cons new-elem list) cmp-fn :key key-fn)
2017-02-10T20:33:57Z TruePika: it should be able to be O(n) instead of whatever that is
2017-02-10T20:34:02Z TruePika: n lg n?
2017-02-10T20:34:41Z TruePika: My theory is that, assuming LIST is already properly sorted, one can iterate from the start and find the proper place to insert the new element, then insert it there
2017-02-10T20:34:59Z TruePika: similar to e.g. stocking books on a shelf
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2017-02-10T20:35:20Z TruePika: the librarian doesn't put the new book at the very beginning and then resort the entire library!
2017-02-10T20:35:54Z Xach: But in the library, you can reach the middle of the shelf without following a chain from the first book onwards.
2017-02-10T20:35:58Z Xach: Not so with lisp lists.
2017-02-10T20:36:08Z pjb: But also, he can skip to the middle of the row when the title starts with an M
2017-02-10T20:36:21Z TruePika: true, you can do a binary search, but I was rather making a point
2017-02-10T20:36:53Z TruePika: the same could be done with vectors, just slightly less efficiently (since O(n) constant insert time, versus O(n) worst-case)
2017-02-10T20:36:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: You can't really binary search a linked list
2017-02-10T20:37:19Z _death: you can also use MERGE
2017-02-10T20:37:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: (Unless you have a vector of tails, I guess)
2017-02-10T20:37:33Z Xach: MERGE is a good thing to use if you are starting from a sorted list.
2017-02-10T20:37:34Z TruePika: MERGE might work, /me checks hyperspec
2017-02-10T20:37:45Z phoe: clhs merge
2017-02-10T20:37:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge.htm
2017-02-10T20:37:51Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: you can with a skip list.
2017-02-10T20:38:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: I think that's what I said later?
2017-02-10T20:38:29Z TruePika: yeah, MERGE looks promising
2017-02-10T20:38:46Z TruePika throws it into the code
2017-02-10T20:40:36Z TruePika: meh, but MERGE doesn't prevent duplicate entries
2017-02-10T20:41:51Z phoe: TruePika: write your own, won't be hard.
2017-02-10T20:42:11Z TruePika: phoe: that's what I was doing in the first place
2017-02-10T20:42:25Z phoe: or (remove-duplicates (merge ...)) if performance is not an issue
2017-02-10T20:42:42Z TruePika: the cons bound by LOOP ON is the actual cons from the list, right? (not a copy)
2017-02-10T20:42:48Z phoe: TruePika: T
2017-02-10T20:42:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2017-02-10T20:43:03Z TruePika: phoe: if I was wrong, would you have said NIL?
2017-02-10T20:44:22Z phoe: TruePika: T
2017-02-10T20:44:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: #t
2017-02-10T20:44:43Z mcdonji joined #lisp
2017-02-10T20:44:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, maybe, #f
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2017-02-10T21:02:22Z quadresce: aeth, what do you think about not naming things "quaternion*" and just shadowing +-*/ in your package?
2017-02-10T21:02:33Z quadresce: it makes the package a bit inconvenient to look at because you have cl:* now
2017-02-10T21:03:04Z pjb: Not if you make them generic functions with a default methods dispatching to cl:*.
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2017-02-10T21:03:28Z TruePika: ...
2017-02-10T21:03:38Z TruePika: The value "FOOA" is not of type BASE-STRING
2017-02-10T21:03:54Z TruePika: methinks a coerce might be needed?
2017-02-10T21:04:27Z TruePika: yup, the underlying character type was CHARACTER
2017-02-10T21:04:46Z quadresce: pjb, I think that is a bad idea, because I don't think library authors will provide compatible protocols
2017-02-10T21:04:51Z pjb: See for example: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/invoice/invoice.lisp#L283  but for arithmetic, I kept defun, since we can actuall sum numbers. integer + quaternion + integer + float -> quaternion
2017-02-10T21:04:57Z quadresce: also because it's slow, and quaternions are usually used in a place you don't want things slow
2017-02-10T21:05:03Z TruePika: Is SBCL smart enough to use a single byte for a BASE-CHAR, instead of the four it uses for CHARACTER?
2017-02-10T21:05:06Z aeth: quadresce, pjb: Switching to a generic solution massively complicates things right now and it has to not affect performance too (so e.g. CLOS is out without MOP magic)
2017-02-10T21:05:25Z Bike: TruePika: iirc yes
2017-02-10T21:05:31Z pjb: quadresce: granted.  But one can assume it will be rare to have a program mixing quaternions and euros.
2017-02-10T21:05:49Z paule32: hello
2017-02-10T21:05:50Z TruePika: well that's nice
2017-02-10T21:06:01Z quadresce: pjb, what I'm saying is that generic functions are going to just make your library code look slightly nicer, but provides nothing to the user except dog slow arithmetic
2017-02-10T21:06:18Z paule32: i have download quicklisp, and try to load cffi, but i fail
2017-02-10T21:06:26Z pjb: I'm not sure testing for the type of the argument in a defun would be faster.
2017-02-10T21:06:33Z TruePika: paule32: what implementation?
2017-02-10T21:06:38Z paule32: can you give me tips to load cffi for clips
2017-02-10T21:06:41Z quadresce: pjb, I am not suggesting that either.
2017-02-10T21:06:48Z TruePika: clisp...hmm
2017-02-10T21:06:51Z paule32: clisp
2017-02-10T21:06:53Z quadresce: I am suggesting using QUATERNION:* and CL:* separately.
2017-02-10T21:07:07Z pjb: (ql:quickload :cffi) works nicely in clisp.
2017-02-10T21:07:18Z Younder: There is a quaternion library :) ?
2017-02-10T21:07:28Z Bike: TruePika: yeah, the internals say it should pack one in eight bits.
2017-02-10T21:07:29Z quadresce: Younder, there's like 5, as is usual in the Lisp community
2017-02-10T21:07:31Z aeth: The advantage of something genericish, though, would be that it could be unified with a GLSL wrapper, so e.g. (* some-vec 4) could take place either on the GPU as "someVec * 4" or on the CPU as (vec*scalar some-vec 4)
2017-02-10T21:08:04Z TruePika: Bike: Is there an easy way for me to check how large a type packs to? Say something in e.g. SB-EXT/SB-INT or a source file?
2017-02-10T21:08:17Z aeth: Younder: There are probably at least 5 graphics/game math libraries, although the most common/popular (sb-cga) doesn't have quaternions... which is probably why there are probably at least 5.
2017-02-10T21:08:32Z TruePika: just so I wouldn't need to bug anyone
2017-02-10T21:08:38Z quadresce: I just hate using libraries that follow the convention LONG-NAME:LONG-NAME* for multiplication, is all. (:
2017-02-10T21:08:41Z Younder: I love quaternions they are so elegant. Unlike matrixes.
2017-02-10T21:08:44Z quadresce: Just provide * from your package
2017-02-10T21:08:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: you might try https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function
2017-02-10T21:08:53Z Bike: TruePika: it's in sb-vm::*specialized-array-element-type-properties*
2017-02-10T21:08:59Z aeth: quadresce: oh no, this is zr:quaternion* ;-)
2017-02-10T21:09:05Z quadresce: Younder, you mean specifically for rotation?
2017-02-10T21:09:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd be a bit interested to know how it compares perfomance-wise
2017-02-10T21:09:17Z Younder: yes 3D rotation
2017-02-10T21:09:18Z Bike: TruePika: pack size is n-bits
2017-02-10T21:09:29Z TruePika: I see
2017-02-10T21:09:33Z paule32: no package for QL
2017-02-10T21:09:34Z Bike: also it's actually exported, how bout that
2017-02-10T21:09:38Z TruePika: typecode is there also, e.g.
2017-02-10T21:09:40Z TruePika: heh
2017-02-10T21:09:43Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I cannot use LLGPL code. There is one alternative that's permissively licensed, though.
2017-02-10T21:09:53Z Bike: (that doesn't mean it's an interface you're supposed to use, obvs)
2017-02-10T21:09:54Z quadresce: At least matrices compose well with arbitrary linear transformations, unlike quaterions, which just form a double cover on SO(3)
2017-02-10T21:10:10Z Younder: quadresce, can you recomend a lib for quad 3D rot
2017-02-10T21:10:20Z TruePika: Bike: the struct itself is internal, so one can't do anything with the data "officially"
2017-02-10T21:10:33Z quadresce: Younder, https://github.com/gonzojive/cl-quaternion
2017-02-10T21:10:37Z TruePika: except pass it to other functions
2017-02-10T21:10:42Z Bike: the accessors are also exported.
2017-02-10T21:10:47Z Younder: quadresce, thx
2017-02-10T21:10:51Z TruePika: hm
2017-02-10T21:11:05Z Bike: but it's still internals.
2017-02-10T21:11:13Z TruePika: I mean, I wouldn't be messing with anything from SB-VM
2017-02-10T21:11:40Z TruePika: just referring to it for space optimization and reference from #'DISASSEMBLE
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2017-02-10T21:12:10Z quadresce: Younder, https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Quaternion_type#Common_Lisp
2017-02-10T21:12:19Z quadresce: the arithmetic is very simple
2017-02-10T21:12:41Z dlowe: we just need implementation extensions on the complex type
2017-02-10T21:12:58Z dlowe: The basic complex plane is a special case of a quaternion
2017-02-10T21:13:09Z aeth: quadresce: that is... not how you do that
2017-02-10T21:13:14Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2017-02-10T21:13:35Z aeth: quadresce: if you wanted to do that you'd use a struct, probably inheriting (or whatever the term they use is) from a vector
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2017-02-10T21:13:57Z dlowe: aeth: at least it's not a plist :)
2017-02-10T21:14:17Z quadresce: aeth, not how you do what?
2017-02-10T21:14:28Z aeth: Common Lisp is not Java, so putting every little thing in a class is going to be slow unless you mess with the MOP (which I don't see rosetta code doing there)
2017-02-10T21:14:45Z quadresce: dlowe, be careful though, even though quaternions and complex numbers are related algebraically, you don't get the same algebraic guarantees
2017-02-10T21:14:55Z quadresce: dlowe, like laws of commutativity
2017-02-10T21:15:08Z aeth: The way I and several other libraries do quaternions is that you'd basically have to write non-portable SBCL-only SIMD to make it faster.
2017-02-10T21:15:08Z dlowe: quadresce: that's true.  So maybe not a great idea.
2017-02-10T21:15:27Z aeth: (parsing that sentence, apparently I am a library)
2017-02-10T21:15:30Z quadresce: aeth, honestly quaternions should probably just be a specialized vector of floats
2017-02-10T21:15:42Z TruePika: ^
2017-02-10T21:16:20Z TruePika: if you want it to be like an object, just have it be a struct with an underlying vector type
2017-02-10T21:16:30Z Younder: I'll work on it. I love quaternions and they should play a more prominent role in CL.
2017-02-10T21:16:32Z aeth: quadresce: there are two equivalent ways to make that, though. You can do what I did and just (deftype quaternion () '(simple-array single-float (4))) (defun quaternion (w x y z) (make-array 4 :element-type 'single-float :initial-contents (list w x y z)))
2017-02-10T21:16:36Z aeth: quadresce: or you can make a struct
2017-02-10T21:16:37Z quadresce: TruePika, I don't remember if the underlying vector type will specialize though.
2017-02-10T21:16:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: I guess we know what the singularity goes by on IRC
2017-02-10T21:16:49Z TruePika: quadresce: if you typedef it does
2017-02-10T21:16:53Z quadresce: aeth, yeah some implementations are OK at having unboxed struct fields
2017-02-10T21:17:00Z TruePika: one moment, I have an example on github
2017-02-10T21:17:14Z jackdaniel: TruePika: methods aren't specialized on types but on classes
2017-02-10T21:17:15Z Bike: i think if you juse :type it won't...
2017-02-10T21:17:26Z aeth: quadresce: no, all implementations can do this because you'd do (defstruct (quaternion (:type vector) ...
2017-02-10T21:17:29Z aeth: quadresce: and it's in the spec
2017-02-10T21:17:30Z TruePika: https://github.com/TruePikachu/terraria-map-dump/blob/master/color.lisp#L8
2017-02-10T21:17:34Z aeth: quadresce: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2017-02-10T21:17:37Z quadresce: aeth, that's not a specialized simple-vector
2017-02-10T21:17:40Z TruePika: or wait, specialize method
2017-02-10T21:17:45Z quadresce: aeth, that's just a vector of pointers
2017-02-10T21:17:49Z TruePika: I was thinking specialized type
2017-02-10T21:17:56Z quadresce: sorry, simple-array* not simple-vector
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2017-02-10T21:18:14Z Bike: you can do :type (vector single-float) i'm pretty sure.
2017-02-10T21:18:19Z rippa quit (Quit: {#`%${%&`+'${`%&NO CARRIER)
2017-02-10T21:18:25Z Younder: Anyhow should be simple enough. Use that good old Conway book on quaternions and Octonions.
2017-02-10T21:18:38Z TruePika: I have an example of how I store colors in terraria-map-dump linked up there
2017-02-10T21:18:43Z quadresce: Bike, at that point it's implementation defined, right? you are only allowed vector and (vector size)
2017-02-10T21:19:07Z aeth: quadresce: yes, I can't find the exact syntax
2017-02-10T21:19:11Z aeth: Bike has it, I think
2017-02-10T21:19:16Z TruePika: did nobody see my code?
2017-02-10T21:19:18Z quadresce: aeth, that is not portable CL
2017-02-10T21:19:22Z Bike: quadresce: the defstruct page says (vector element-type) is allowed
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2017-02-10T21:19:44Z Bike: of course, single-float could still upgrade to T, but then you're fucked regardless
2017-02-10T21:19:47Z aeth: quadresce: of course not, *but* I think the implementations that can't handle it don't have upgraded single-float vectors in the first place! like clisp
2017-02-10T21:20:12Z TruePika: or you're talking about upgrades
2017-02-10T21:20:17Z aeth: quadresce: if you can get my code to run on clisp, it's just going to have T vectors for all those floats
2017-02-10T21:20:25Z Younder: NEVER allow single-float as the ONLY type!
2017-02-10T21:20:28Z TruePika: why are you using clisp?
2017-02-10T21:20:29Z quadresce: Bike, Interesting, the argument list says " type---one of the type specifiers list, vector, or (vector size), or some other type specifier defined by the implementation to be appropriate. " but the description says (vector type-name)
2017-02-10T21:20:40Z Bike: how annoying
2017-02-10T21:20:43Z Bike: phoe get on this
2017-02-10T21:20:48Z phoe: Bike: wat
2017-02-10T21:20:50Z phoe: where
2017-02-10T21:20:51Z phoe: who
2017-02-10T21:20:53Z aeth: (upgraded-array-element-type 'single-float) => T on clisp, SINGLE-FLOAT on most Lisps
2017-02-10T21:21:04Z Bike: spec contradicts itself in defstruct
2017-02-10T21:21:13Z aeth: TruePika: I test my stuff on a *lot* of different lisps, but develop in SBCL
2017-02-10T21:21:16Z phoe: Bike: spec contradicts itself in many ways
2017-02-10T21:21:20Z TruePika: aeth: ah, that makes sense
2017-02-10T21:21:25Z Bike: yeah here's another one for the pile i'm saying
2017-02-10T21:21:27Z phoe: file an issue on github.com/phoe/clus-data
2017-02-10T21:21:32Z phoe: quoting this
2017-02-10T21:21:38Z phoe: OR
2017-02-10T21:21:40Z phoe: better
2017-02-10T21:21:46Z phoe: check if this error is listed on CLiki
2017-02-10T21:21:50Z Bike: quadresce: anyway i'd go with the description. no reason not to allow specialized vectors, and specifying the size is dumb, you already have the slots!
2017-02-10T21:21:54Z quadresce: aeth, in any case, I'd either :TYPE all the fields of a struct, or not use a struct at all and explicitly use the SIMPLE-ARRAY representation (:
2017-02-10T21:22:01Z TruePika: phoe: I thought you were going to suggest to change it and file pull request
2017-02-10T21:22:02Z Bike: the... pseudo slots
2017-02-10T21:22:04Z phoe: because it has a list of mistakes and errors in the spec.
2017-02-10T21:22:05Z quadresce: Bike, yeah :)
2017-02-10T21:22:06Z phoe: TruePika: no, not yet
2017-02-10T21:22:13Z aeth: TruePika: Although actually, I only test in SBCL, CCL, and ECL right now. clisp doesn't really support anything that I'm doing, and I can't be bothered to find out how to give it a newer ASDF to even test it to see if it fails in places or just is extremely slow
2017-02-10T21:22:24Z phoe: you need a body of code to accept a PR into
2017-02-10T21:22:29Z phoe: and CLUS is not this stable just yet.
2017-02-10T21:22:32Z Bike: doesn't seem to be on "proposed ansi revisions and clarifications".
2017-02-10T21:22:39Z phoe: I'd rather accept an issue that I will be able to get to soon.
2017-02-10T21:22:42Z phoe: Bike: yes, this one.
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2017-02-10T21:22:57Z aeth: quadresce: right, but all of these alternatives are *not* the ones on Rosetta Code
2017-02-10T21:23:03Z aeth: No wonder people think Lisp is slow
2017-02-10T21:23:12Z quadresce: aeth, i provided rosetta code link to show how easy it is
2017-02-10T21:23:17Z quadresce: changing the representation is trivial.
2017-02-10T21:23:59Z quadresce: aeth, did you test on SBCL CCL and ECL the ability for structures to be DX-allocated? I wonder what the state of that is
2017-02-10T21:24:00Z aeth: There's a high performance numerical language under the surface, but the general population of programmers doesn't treat Lisp like that.
2017-02-10T21:24:18Z aeth: I think SBCL generally only has about 30% performance penalty over C for this sort of thing, if even that.
2017-02-10T21:24:20Z Bike: you don't usually need to, and writing tight numerical code sucks ass
2017-02-10T21:24:23Z quadresce: aeth, I do high perf numerical lisp for my day job, and run into lots of trouble all the time :[
2017-02-10T21:24:39Z Younder: single-float as default in Lisp is a mistake
2017-02-10T21:24:51Z quadresce: Younder, it's probably not a mistake
2017-02-10T21:25:01Z aeth: quadresce: SBCL loves dynamic extent, and when it doesn't, it warns me if I explicitly declare it... and I don't really need to declare it.
2017-02-10T21:25:07Z aeth: quadresce: The others afaik like to cons anyway. :(
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2017-02-10T21:25:36Z quadresce: aeth, it's hard to write idiomatic fast Lisp numerical code that isn't consy and actually specialized across various built-in types
2017-02-10T21:25:59Z aeth: I wouldn't be surprised if most of what I do remains permanently at least 2x to 3x faster on SBCL than other CLs.
2017-02-10T21:26:02Z Younder: I refer you to Edi Weitz book 'common lisp recepies'
2017-02-10T21:26:09Z quadresce: I was just rambling in #sbcl about doing high-performance geometric computations on meshes with 10-100 million triangle elements, and the trouble with structuring those computations nicely
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2017-02-10T21:26:30Z Younder: sigh
2017-02-10T21:26:40Z aeth: quadresce: you should join #lispgames even if you don't do game-related stuff
2017-02-10T21:26:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there any language where it's easy to write idiomatic fast numeric code?
2017-02-10T21:26:53Z dlowe: fortran :)
2017-02-10T21:26:55Z TruePika: fiddlerwoaroof: general mathematics
2017-02-10T21:26:58Z quadresce: fiddlerwoaroof, idiomatic fortran
2017-02-10T21:27:01Z aeth: quadresce: it sounds like your workflow is similar to stuff that would interest people in #lispgames
2017-02-10T21:27:04Z Bike: fortran, easy?
2017-02-10T21:27:07Z quadresce: fiddlerwoaroof, the only problem is that it looks like idiomatic fortran
2017-02-10T21:27:20Z aeth: Bike: afaik, fortran is easy for that one purpose and hard if you want to not use it for that purpose
2017-02-10T21:27:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: It seems to me that a lot of the optimizations you do to make numeric code fast also makes it unreadable and unmaintainable.
2017-02-10T21:27:24Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-02-10T21:27:24Z aeth: Bike: i.e. a DSL for numerical code
2017-02-10T21:27:42Z Younder: ssingle-float is fine for mome things like deep neural nets, as long as they use the sigmoid function
2017-02-10T21:27:50Z TruePika: fiddlerwoaroof: such as fast inverse square root?
2017-02-10T21:27:56Z quadresce: Fortran 90+ is a pretty decent language.
2017-02-10T21:27:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: Unless you're using an APL derivative, in which case it's always unreadable
2017-02-10T21:28:10Z aeth: Afaik, Fortran and C are at the moment at around similar levels of performance in numerical code, but Fortran is easier to get there.
2017-02-10T21:28:14Z aeth: But I haven't looked too deeply into that.
2017-02-10T21:28:15Z quadresce: Younder, single-float is also represented immediately on 64-bit machines usually
2017-02-10T21:28:30Z quadresce: aeth, fortran is better because it doesn't have lots of aliasing issues
2017-02-10T21:28:32Z Bike: i don't know how much difference pointer alising makes now
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2017-02-10T21:28:45Z Younder: see any appreciable divergence  in the first 10 steps in 1000 just don't
2017-02-10T21:29:11Z aeth: quadresce: I think there are ways around that now, based on discussions I've read with Fortran people and C people arguing with each other, but it's above me so I don't know if the C people were wrong.
2017-02-10T21:29:16Z quadresce: Also, Fortran has LAPACK natively, so that's nice (:
2017-02-10T21:29:39Z Bike: you can indicate in C that pointers don't alias, or probably make the compiler just assume that
2017-02-10T21:29:46Z quadresce: aeth, I don't doubt there are ways to declare what you want. You can get tight and fast numerical code in C. It's just easier and more explicit in Fortran.
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2017-02-10T21:30:08Z Bike: sort of like funsafe math optimizations, which are not fun
2017-02-10T21:30:43Z Younder: I know numerical analysis was never popular among CL'ers. But for once heed my warning.
2017-02-10T21:31:01Z quadresce: Younder, what's your warning? I don't get it.
2017-02-10T21:31:42Z aeth: I'd love to see if a CL implementation could do better than SBCL on numerical stuff. I think there's plenty of room. e.g. take (map 'vec #'+ some-vec some-other-vec) and assume 'vec is a size 3 single-float simple-array, like in sb-cga.
2017-02-10T21:31:56Z Bike: not to thoughtlessly say "single-float" instead of "double-float" in a place where you can obviously use either, on irc, apparently
2017-02-10T21:32:00Z Younder: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerical_analysis
2017-02-10T21:32:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: How is clasp's numerical performance?
2017-02-10T21:32:06Z quadresce: Younder, I'm happy to hear a numerical analytic argument for not using single-floats generally, but I doubt there is one, because numerical analytic arguments are generally not universal.
2017-02-10T21:32:06Z Bike: shitty
2017-02-10T21:32:12Z aeth: If the implementation knows some-vec and some-other-vec are vecs, then...
2017-02-10T21:32:22Z Bike: i mean, working on it, but at the moment, bad
2017-02-10T21:32:39Z Younder: sigh
2017-02-10T21:32:40Z aeth: Younder: zombie-raptor is a game engine. That's why it mostly uses single-float.
2017-02-10T21:33:12Z aeth: Even if I wanted to double-float everything I'd just be converting it to single-float once it goes to the GPU because Nvidia made the decision that gaming GPUs don't need to do anything other than single-float well.
2017-02-10T21:34:15Z quadresce: Younder, I'd try to educate the masses on, not their choice of floating point type, but rather what constitutes safe, precision-preserving arithmetic (:
2017-02-10T21:34:19Z aeth: Afaik, the main cost of using single-float is using more complicated algorithms than you might use in double-float or some other numerical representation. I am aware of this, and I am willing to use Wikipedia for those algorithms.
2017-02-10T21:34:32Z quadresce: a single and double are just as bad if you slash your precision away with some awful subtractions ;)
2017-02-10T21:35:00Z Younder: It is along story and it ends in error. You really need to understand how much you cut off. And ech multiplication and division adds to it. In a long computation single-float is rarely enough.
2017-02-10T21:35:37Z Bike: games don't care much. fast inverse square root was fast because it's not accurate, it does what, one newton iteration?
2017-02-10T21:36:12Z aeth: Younder: for games, it's mostly small computations that need to be run 60-200 times a second, and that don't need to be accurate
2017-02-10T21:36:33Z aeth: The key is running 60-200 times a second.
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2017-02-10T21:37:09Z Younder: For gods sake carry that eps. So you can see whether it it is good enough or not.
2017-02-10T21:37:23Z aeth: I'm just glad that single-core CPUs have improved enough since the 1990s (although not as much as people in the 1990s would have expected) that I don't have to use very hacky C (like fast inverse square root) and can instead use a decent programming language
2017-02-10T21:38:08Z aeth: because if regular C wasn't fast enough in the late 1990s then a 30%ish slower language definitely wouldn't have been
2017-02-10T21:38:12Z quadresce: Younder, aeth can see if it's good enough by looking at the scene and literally seeing if it's good enough
2017-02-10T21:38:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: Have you tried some kind of worker thread setup?
2017-02-10T21:38:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth
2017-02-10T21:38:33Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: once I thread things, everything becomes more complicated.
2017-02-10T21:38:56Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: I am just trying to reach feature completion, and then I can make things faster, sort of like what libmesa is doing with GPU drivers.
2017-02-10T21:39:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's pretty manageable if you treat your threads like pure functions
2017-02-10T21:39:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. an input queue, an output queue and big enough batch sizes
2017-02-10T21:39:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: With no side effects in the threads
2017-02-10T21:39:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or shared state
2017-02-10T21:40:00Z aeth: The problem is that the heart of a game is stateful, even if I have lots of pure functions or mostly functional functions (mostly functional procedures?)
2017-02-10T21:40:38Z aeth: And OpenGL has state. And SDL2 has state.
2017-02-10T21:40:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, you just restrict state management to the main thread
2017-02-10T21:40:57Z aeth: right
2017-02-10T21:40:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: And do something like transactions
2017-02-10T21:41:04Z aeth: It does put a ceiling on it, though.
2017-02-10T21:41:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing to remember, though, is that these things can be really tricky to retrofit :)
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2017-02-10T21:45:54Z Younder: You realize that if SBCL doesn't use SSE then it is all for nothing. You might as well use double-float.
2017-02-10T21:46:06Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, but even if I had to rewrite the whole entity component system and physics, it'd probably be rewritten in about 1/10th of the time it took to write the originals.
2017-02-10T21:47:02Z quadresce: Younder, you seem awfully pessimistic about the world :]
2017-02-10T21:47:11Z Bike: well it uh, does use sse, so... no problem there
2017-02-10T21:47:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Will sbcl use more recent SIMD instructions?
2017-02-10T21:47:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: Like avx/avx2
2017-02-10T21:47:52Z quadresce: No AVX AFAIK.
2017-02-10T21:47:54Z Bike: it has stuff for simd packs, but i dunno how to use it
2017-02-10T21:48:03Z Younder: Thatts more like it!
2017-02-10T21:48:08Z aeth: fiddlerwoaroof: on the other hand, (/ a-really-big-number 10) is probably still a really big number, so maybe I shouldn't be optimistic
2017-02-10T21:48:20Z shka: i saw library for vector instructions somewhere…
2017-02-10T21:48:29Z quadresce: there's SB-SIMD-PACK
2017-02-10T21:48:48Z quadresce: and pkhuong has written about this stuff
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2017-02-10T21:49:34Z aeth: sb-cga is optimized for SBCL: https://github.com/nikodemus/sb-cga/blob/master/ports/sbcl.lisp
2017-02-10T21:49:41Z fiddlerwoaroof goes back to reading about EmberJS
2017-02-10T21:50:36Z aeth: I'm moving off of sb-cga, though, because it doesn't have enough features.
2017-02-10T21:50:57Z shka: ooooh
2017-02-10T21:51:22Z shka: aeth: thanks for link, i didnt see any define-vop in real world package
2017-02-10T21:51:30Z aeth: shka: that's the only one I know of
2017-02-10T21:51:51Z Bike: i think there's some in the transactional memory library
2017-02-10T21:52:15Z Younder: AVX is cool.
2017-02-10T21:52:35Z Younder: SSE is aless cool but still cool'
2017-02-10T21:53:17Z quadresce: What about PCMCIA?
2017-02-10T21:53:21Z aeth: To be clearer as to why I'm not going to be using sb-cga anymore, I want to tightly integrate the math, physics, and entity component system (or something similar to an ECS) of my engine.
2017-02-10T21:53:23Z Younder: quadresce, I take it SBCL optimizes to SSE 4.2 or so
2017-02-10T21:54:51Z aeth: Someone should run numerical SBCL code on a Xeon Phi...
2017-02-10T21:55:05Z shka: Bike: wow? any idea how it was called?
2017-02-10T21:55:15Z Bike: STMX?
2017-02-10T21:55:26Z shka: got it
2017-02-10T21:55:28Z Bike: yep that was it.
2017-02-10T21:55:28Z shka: thanks
2017-02-10T21:55:47Z quadresce: Folks should express their desire to the SBCL devs to care about numerics, because I was told yesterday that scientific/etc applications are "not typical use-cases for SBCL"
2017-02-10T21:56:00Z quadresce: then do cool things like Xeon Phi or super optimized numerics
2017-02-10T21:56:28Z Younder: My twin Titan Blacks will run circles around one. 12 Terra Flops!
2017-02-10T21:56:30Z Bike: i think the usual sbcl devs are mostly concerned with unfucking the mess
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2017-02-10T21:56:40Z quadresce: Bike, yes, that's true (:
2017-02-10T21:56:44Z shka: i must check out STMX some day
2017-02-10T21:57:16Z shka: i hate using raw mutexs
2017-02-10T21:57:34Z shka: i spend to much time thinking is there is a corner case where this thing stops working
2017-02-10T21:57:42Z shka: that's why i like lparallel so much…
2017-02-10T21:58:06Z quadresce: I like lparallel too, but lparallel also reveals some issues with Lisp more generally.
2017-02-10T21:58:21Z quadresce: like assumptions about underlying data structures being parallelized
2017-02-10T21:58:47Z shka: can you please elaborate on that?
2017-02-10T21:58:49Z aeth: quadresce: #lispgames is probably the largest subset of Lispers on IRC... not really scientific but at least they could optimize heavily up to array size 4 or so ;-)
2017-02-10T21:59:09Z Bike: as for science, i wrote gillespie's algorithm up, but (a) i ended up having to use friggin delphi (b) not that algorithm anyway (c) it's broken now even though i haven't touched it in a year, tragic
2017-02-10T21:59:10Z quadresce: aeth, yeah, scientific computing and game computing sometimes have overlapping goals
2017-02-10T21:59:16Z shka: lisp on its own does not address threads at all
2017-02-10T21:59:39Z quadresce: shka, even ignoring the threading part, just what a Lisp API can expose
2017-02-10T21:59:57Z Bike: ignoring the threads part of lparallel?
2017-02-10T22:00:05Z shka: could you be more specific?
2017-02-10T22:00:09Z shka: example perhaps?
2017-02-10T22:00:20Z shka: i'm afraid i don't know where are you going
2017-02-10T22:00:35Z quadresce: shka, PREDUCE on a specialized array doesn't get optimized since PREDUCE just knows how to work with general vectors
2017-02-10T22:00:45Z quadresce: so things like access to the array aren't optimized
2017-02-10T22:00:52Z shka: oh
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2017-02-10T22:01:02Z paule32: need help:
2017-02-10T22:01:02Z shka: i didn't knew that!
2017-02-10T22:01:03Z paule32: libtool: link: gcc -g -O2 -o sigsegv1 sigsegv1.o  ../src/.libs/libsigsegv.a -lc
2017-02-10T22:01:08Z paule32: lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6: error adding symbols: Bad value
2017-02-10T22:01:31Z shka: paule32: soooo you got linker error?
2017-02-10T22:01:35Z Younder: I ise C and nvcc for optimal performance. Then I link to Lisp.
2017-02-10T22:01:44Z paule32: shka: yes
2017-02-10T22:01:54Z shka: how #lisp can help you with that? ;-)
2017-02-10T22:02:02Z Younder: CUDA is best in CUDA.
2017-02-10T22:02:19Z Younder: Just a thought.
2017-02-10T22:02:24Z shka: quadresce: thanks for info, I'm bit surprised that this is the case
2017-02-10T22:02:27Z paule32: shka: clisp need ffi support (compiled in), for cffi
2017-02-10T22:02:37Z quadresce: shka, it's not surprising, it's just a fact about Lisp
2017-02-10T22:02:40Z Bike: preduce is defined in some complicated way, huh
2017-02-10T22:02:50Z shka: it is surprising for me
2017-02-10T22:02:51Z quadresce: shka, it's hard, without inlining, to expose a generic API that's also fast
2017-02-10T22:03:21Z quadresce: lparallel is so nice and easy because it works with everything
2017-02-10T22:03:42Z aeth: Younder: Personally, I'd rather deal with a smaller, simpler system in Lisp even if it has a bit of a speed penalty than have to deal with mixing two very different languages.
2017-02-10T22:03:51Z Younder: But you miss RTTesnorFlow
2017-02-10T22:03:55Z Bike: i was thinking i could try adding fancier types in cleavir. i read a paper on typing overloaded functions that could be good
2017-02-10T22:03:59Z aeth: Most of my frustrations in CL have to do with using wrapped C libraries, rather than CL itself.
2017-02-10T22:04:00Z quadresce: shka, I wanted to do a PREDUCE with #'+, but it was too slow, so I wrote my own.
2017-02-10T22:04:02Z Bike: or just having quantified types even, really
2017-02-10T22:04:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: +1
2017-02-10T22:04:21Z quadresce: aeth, CL presents an issue with C though, and its inherent to CL itself
2017-02-10T22:04:25Z shka: this is indeed very unfortunate
2017-02-10T22:04:41Z Bike: this particular thing seems like it could be done with specialization-store or whatever... maybe
2017-02-10T22:04:44Z quadresce: aeth, (Most!) CL implementations move pointers around, and it just makes things hard, as compared to, say, Python.
2017-02-10T22:04:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Whenever I have a portability problem, it's because someone didn't expect me to use their C library on FreeBSD/Solaris/SPARC/etc.
2017-02-10T22:05:09Z Younder: aeth, Me I am a heterogeneous programmer. I use whatever seems more fit.
2017-02-10T22:05:17Z shka: well, there are static-vectors
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2017-02-10T22:05:30Z shka: perhaps we can make this to work with lparallel?
2017-02-10T22:05:42Z quadresce: shka, static-vectors aren't guaranteed to be garbage collected, also only work for vectors, etc.
2017-02-10T22:06:00Z quadresce: you can hack around your specific cases in lisp usually, of course
2017-02-10T22:06:17Z quadresce: but in many cases there's a lack of general mechanisms for dealing with these issues
2017-02-10T22:06:31Z shka: i guess we ran into use case for templates in common lisp ;-)
2017-02-10T22:06:54Z shka: i hate when this happens
2017-02-10T22:06:56Z Younder: Hell for math related stuff I'd use Haskell
2017-02-10T22:07:00Z aeth: Younder: I've programmed a decent amount in idk, probably at least 6 languages, probably more than that... it's just mixing them in one program where a lot of problems come up ime.
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2017-02-10T22:07:19Z quadresce: shka, When I wrote a linear algebra library for work, I indeed wrote a template library for Lisp
2017-02-10T22:07:50Z shka: Younder: the problem is that more often then not, you are not just dealing with math related stuff
2017-02-10T22:08:02Z quadresce: shka, https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/parameterized-function
2017-02-10T22:08:25Z quadresce: Not sure if it's the best design, also I notice there are two PR's. Oops.
2017-02-10T22:09:05Z shka: ok
2017-02-10T22:09:20Z shka: i must admit that i wrote something similar
2017-02-10T22:09:24Z shka: it was for structs
2017-02-10T22:09:32Z Younder: shka, No right now I am building a autonomous quad-copter.
2017-02-10T22:09:53Z shka: it was quite terrible to honest
2017-02-10T22:09:56Z shka: Younder: i know!
2017-02-10T22:09:58Z Bike: i did "templates" once in the form of subst for a demonstration. (lol)
2017-02-10T22:09:59Z shka: ;-)
2017-02-10T22:10:21Z quadresce: Bike, Nice :D
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2017-02-10T22:10:39Z shka: i was using symbol-macrolet
2017-02-10T22:10:42Z shka: :D
2017-02-10T22:10:43Z aeth: And, anyway, if SBCL refuses to be improved for numerical stuff (even though afaik it's the best CL for it at the moment), then I can just submit patches to SICL or something.
2017-02-10T22:10:58Z Younder: shka, Linux device drivers and all the full mounty. And I am loving it.
2017-02-10T22:11:22Z quadresce: aeth, SBCL folks will accept patches of course, but it's not their main concern right now.
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2017-02-10T22:13:11Z Younder: Don't any of you miss C?
2017-02-10T22:13:27Z aeth: quadresce: And it probably won't be until one of the 5 or so #lispgames CL game engines is actually ready
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2017-02-10T22:13:32Z Bike: well, i only really learned C after being proficient in lisp, so no
2017-02-10T22:13:38Z TruePika: Younder: in what sense?
2017-02-10T22:13:47Z TruePika: C is for low-level stuff
2017-02-10T22:13:56Z aeth: Younder: I like being concise.
2017-02-10T22:14:21Z TruePika: in fact, you don't even have to completly leave C if you use ECL
2017-02-10T22:14:29Z TruePika: which compiles Lisp to C source
2017-02-10T22:14:35Z aeth: I'm far more interested in the math and algorithms than in the particular machine's details
2017-02-10T22:14:41Z quadresce: Younder, I hate writing and maintaining C. I hate that most fancy C ends up being UB. But I like that I can malloc an array of structs which contain unions and bla bla bla, and you get control over that layout.
2017-02-10T22:14:58Z aeth: quadresce: agreed
2017-02-10T22:15:06Z quadresce: Younder, but for that 5 lines of convenient code, you have 5,000 lines of shitty hard to deal with code
2017-02-10T22:15:08Z aeth: quadresce: now if only CL allowed non-pointer arrays of structs...
2017-02-10T22:15:25Z quadresce: aeth, I was talking about this in #sbcl yesterday, about the possibility
2017-02-10T22:15:25Z aeth: (even if the standard were to permit that (idk if it does) idk any implementation that does)
2017-02-10T22:15:30Z Bike: it does not.
2017-02-10T22:15:35Z quadresce: stassats says it's useless, that a pointer indirection is OK. :]
2017-02-10T22:15:57Z aeth: quadresce: CACHE
2017-02-10T22:16:00Z Bike: you could have an extension to make struct instances that work like numbers in terms of eq/eql, which would complicate eql but whatevs
2017-02-10T22:16:16Z Younder: I had learned several languages before C like BASIC, and COMAL and FORT and finally PASCAL, but C was my first love. I loved that language and I still do. Programming C feels like coming home.
2017-02-10T22:16:21Z quadresce: aeth, "just don't access the elements of the vector and the pointers will point to linear and adjacent memory"
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2017-02-10T22:16:46Z quadresce: ;-)
2017-02-10T22:16:51Z Bike: i don't get it
2017-02-10T22:17:43Z aeth: Younder: The only language I loved before Lisp was Python, but it just doesn't expose enough... it's too high level and opinionated. I find CL to be a decent compromise between lower level but inconvenient (C) and high level but slow (Python)
2017-02-10T22:18:15Z aeth: I like how one can write more abstract (and so in some sense, higher level) code than Python, but also lower level code, too, all in one language.
2017-02-10T22:18:34Z quadresce: Bike, SBCL's GC will traverse the vector and copy pointer payloads one-by-one, provided nothing's on the stack and GC didn't happen mid-access/mid-manipulation
2017-02-10T22:18:57Z quadresce: so the elements of the vector will be adjacent in memory in this special circumstance if you're just moving around the pointer to the vector itself
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2017-02-10T22:19:18Z Bike: huh.
2017-02-10T22:19:58Z EvW joined #lisp
2017-02-10T22:20:14Z quadresce: makes sense, the vectors pointers are being traversed in order, and as such, are probably being copied in order
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2017-02-10T22:24:35Z Younder: Copying is a big problem in Lisp! And more data should be on the stack.
2017-02-10T22:25:12Z quadresce: Copying isn't a problem almost all of the time
2017-02-10T22:25:23Z quadresce: in fact copying would be great if functional data structures were more in vogue
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2017-02-10T22:26:35Z Younder: Yeah computers are so fast that even crappy code runes like greased lightning.
2017-02-10T22:27:00Z Bike: er, when does one worry about copying in lisp
2017-02-10T22:27:02Z Younder: Kinda miss them old days.
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2017-02-10T22:27:19Z Younder: Bike, I don't
2017-02-10T22:27:19Z shka: Younder: this is garbage collected language
2017-02-10T22:27:19Z TruePika: Younder: is that why Java is so popular?
2017-02-10T22:27:22Z Bike: i guess having to copy things before sorting them
2017-02-10T22:27:29Z quadresce: copying doesn't imply crappy code, just to be clear
2017-02-10T22:27:35Z Bike: Younder: you just said it was a big problem?
2017-02-10T22:27:41Z quadresce: and allocating doesn't have the same costs as it does in C
2017-02-10T22:28:03Z shka: yup
2017-02-10T22:28:21Z shka: in fact i had to forget many things from C++
2017-02-10T22:28:28Z shka: they just don't hold true in CL
2017-02-10T22:28:48Z shka: mostly because of GC and lack of memory fragmentation
2017-02-10T22:29:07Z shka: also: faster allocations
2017-02-10T22:29:13Z Bike: i was writing C++ yesterday and fucked it up because i forgot that = practically means copy, and urgh
2017-02-10T22:29:30Z Younder: Well I regress, copying is not a big problem today. Machines are so fast and have so much memory it hardly matters. I'm jyat an old timer.
2017-02-10T22:29:48Z shka: Younder: it is not only this
2017-02-10T22:29:58Z aeth: quadresce: functional data structures is probably a performance weak point of CL, actually, afaik
2017-02-10T22:30:04Z Bike: i'm confused here. lisp doesn't do implicit copying except on stuff like fixnums where it's free.
2017-02-10T22:30:17Z TruePika: Bike: really? Nice to know
2017-02-10T22:30:27Z shka: aeth: that is not actually true
2017-02-10T22:30:35Z Bike: yeah the semantics is way easier and it confuses people coming from C
2017-02-10T22:30:40Z shka: or at the very least, i would disagree
2017-02-10T22:30:46Z aeth: I thought that the CL compiler doesn't have enough information to make optimizations like Haskell does
2017-02-10T22:31:06Z Younder: aeth, it doesn't
2017-02-10T22:31:16Z shka: aeth: take a look at clojure
2017-02-10T22:31:22Z shka: functional language
2017-02-10T22:31:23Z aeth: Younder: Right, so functional CL is stuck as "mostly-functional"
2017-02-10T22:31:24Z pjb: It does, if you give it the whole sources.
2017-02-10T22:31:24Z shka: dynamic typing
2017-02-10T22:31:35Z shka: it works
2017-02-10T22:31:40Z shka: in fact it works very well
2017-02-10T22:31:58Z aeth: shka: it works as well as a JVM language can work, with all of the drawbacks that implies
2017-02-10T22:32:03Z Younder: aeth, with local procedural optimations
2017-02-10T22:32:17Z quadresce: pjb, that is not true in practice
2017-02-10T22:32:31Z aeth: pjb: I suppose if every function was declaimed inline, then
2017-02-10T22:32:33Z quadresce: pjb, in fact, even recently, i ran into an issue where it couldn't even do a second-order local function inline
2017-02-10T22:32:50Z quadresce: by "it" i mean "sbcl in particular" which is the only implementation that has any hope of doing something
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2017-02-10T22:32:55Z shka: aeth: https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=clojure&lang2=sbcl it is actually not half bad
2017-02-10T22:33:11Z shka: those programs could be made faster in sbcl ofc
2017-02-10T22:33:24Z shka: but point is
2017-02-10T22:33:31Z aeth: shka: I doubt those microbenchmarks because of just how unoptimized so much CL in the wild is
2017-02-10T22:33:49Z shka: besides the point
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2017-02-10T22:34:01Z TruePika: It is easy to write working code. It is hard to write efficient code.
2017-02-10T22:34:06Z shka: https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/clojure.html
2017-02-10T22:34:14Z shka: ok so here is clojure vs java
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2017-02-10T22:34:17Z shka: better?
2017-02-10T22:34:31Z shka: anyway
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2017-02-10T22:34:44Z shka: point is: actually it runs quite well
2017-02-10T22:35:02Z shka: and clojure type system does not offer any more info than CL does
2017-02-10T22:35:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: The difference, though, is that clojure specifies that all the language data structures are immutable
2017-02-10T22:35:39Z shka: fiddlerwoaroof: immutable by default
2017-02-10T22:36:05Z Younder: I'd say the efficiency of a Lisp program is no easily determined. It needs profilong and then some.
2017-02-10T22:36:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: shka: I might be misinformed, buy my impression is that you can only mutate references to data, not the underlying data structures themselves.
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2017-02-10T22:36:25Z aeth: shka: if clojure is like scheme and doesn't have an equivalent to declare, then it has *less* type information than CL potentially has
2017-02-10T22:36:33Z aeth: I'm not very familiar with clojure
2017-02-10T22:36:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. mutability happens by changing what an atom points to, not by mutating the thing pointed to
2017-02-10T22:37:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: clojure lets you attach metadata to things, I think it can also have type declarations, but I've never gotten that far into it
2017-02-10T22:38:05Z Younder: I love lisp for it's playfulness. The way I can use the REPL to play with the data and then make a decision.
2017-02-10T22:38:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, the language is designed so that an implementor can use structure sharing everywhere without worrying
2017-02-10T22:38:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: (eq 'the-language 'clojure)
2017-02-10T22:38:48Z aeth: Younder: right, but with a few small changes to the language you could make the types more concrete once you settle on a design
2017-02-10T22:38:52Z shka: anyway, i don't think it is impossible for CL to be retrofitted with functional data structures
2017-02-10T22:38:56Z pjb: (eq 'the-language 'clojure) #| --> nil |#
2017-02-10T22:39:15Z shka: and get good performance as well!
2017-02-10T22:39:17Z Younder: I am a lazy son of a bitch that likes to play. That is why I like Lisp.
2017-02-10T22:39:57Z shka: i'm not any expert on compilers on language designs, but i didn't get clear reason why it would be impossible
2017-02-10T22:40:12Z shka: so i am assuming that IT IS possible
2017-02-10T22:40:46Z Younder: I rarely finalize my design in lisp. It would end up as C or Haskell. But I come back because I love the Lisp experience.
2017-02-10T22:40:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I wonder, things like (setf (cdr *foo*) '()) wouldn't work as expected.
2017-02-10T22:41:24Z Younder: I have REPL love ;)
2017-02-10T22:41:39Z shka: fiddlerwoaroof: we could simply use some type of (declaim (immutable type))
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2017-02-10T22:42:01Z shka: let's say it would be called CL:2020
2017-02-10T22:42:50Z shka: so existing stuff could stay like it is
2017-02-10T22:44:01Z phoe: shka: HFR
2017-02-10T22:44:06Z phoe: Hypothetical Future Revision
2017-02-10T22:45:04Z shka: phoe: someday one implementation maintainer will simply say: fuck it, we are moving forward
2017-02-10T22:45:20Z shka: in fact, this already happend
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2017-02-10T22:45:30Z shka: we have threads in both ccl and sbcl
2017-02-10T22:45:59Z rumbler3_ quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-02-10T22:47:53Z shka: well, i certainly like clojure data structures
2017-02-10T22:48:11Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-02-10T22:48:15Z shka: but i still prefer CL as a language
2017-02-10T22:48:29Z shka: i wish we could have best of the both worlds :/
2017-02-10T22:49:02Z quadresce: shka, there are some functional data structures
2017-02-10T22:49:12Z shka: i know
2017-02-10T22:49:21Z sjl: e.g. https://github.com/danshapero/cl-hamt
2017-02-10T22:49:29Z pjb: Don't wish!  Buy  https://www.amazon.com/Purely-Functional-Structures-Chris-Okasaki/dp/0521663504/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486766955&sr=8-1&keywords=functional+data+structures   and implement them in CL!
2017-02-10T22:49:38Z shka: yes i know about this cl-hamt
2017-02-10T22:50:00Z shka: i implemented hamts myself, though
2017-02-10T22:50:04Z Younder: pjb, one of my favoribe books
2017-02-10T22:50:18Z pinkar joined #lisp
2017-02-10T22:50:24Z shka: pjb: don't blame me, but i don't understand this book
2017-02-10T22:50:28Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-02-10T22:50:40Z quadresce: this was what i was thinking: https://common-lisp.net/project/fset/Site/Project.html
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2017-02-10T22:51:04Z Younder: pjb, I am trying to implement it is Haskell
2017-02-10T22:52:33Z shka: i should use fsets more
2017-02-10T22:52:41Z shka: quadresce: thanks for that
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2017-02-10T22:53:21Z shka: i knew about it, but somehow it didn't reach my personal go-to area
2017-02-10T22:54:03Z varjag: fset is great
2017-02-10T22:54:14Z varjag: save for scheme-ish naming conventions
2017-02-10T22:54:31Z shka: i actually like schemeish names
2017-02-10T22:54:48Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-02-10T22:54:50Z aeth: If you're doing functionalish stuff, please at least bring in the ! from Scheme
2017-02-10T22:54:52Z aeth: imo
2017-02-10T22:55:19Z varjag: don't like my code screaming at me!
2017-02-10T22:55:40Z Younder: I find haskell more elegant
2017-02-10T22:55:49Z aeth: varjag: no, THIS-IS-YOUR-CODE-SCREAMING, so that only happens when you enter the debugger, usually ;-p
2017-02-10T22:55:51Z Younder: less shouty
2017-02-10T22:56:12Z Younder: Though I hate CamelCase
2017-02-10T22:56:14Z varjag: aeth: yeah if i wanted it screaming i'd write all upcase
2017-02-10T22:56:59Z aeth: Younder: I want to learn Haskell, I just find it hard to get past the awful syntax
2017-02-10T22:57:28Z Younder: WHAT WAS THAT I THOUGHT YOU ALL LIKED LISP THE LASTLANGUAGE IN ALL UPCASE
2017-02-10T22:57:42Z Younder: ;)
2017-02-10T22:57:42Z aeth: Younder: COBOL is still around
2017-02-10T22:57:48Z varjag: actually vb was the last one
2017-02-10T22:57:54Z varjag: or should i say VISUAL BASIC
2017-02-10T22:57:59Z sdsadsdas joined #lisp
2017-02-10T22:59:21Z varjag: though apparently not anymore for a long time
2017-02-10T22:59:56Z RedEight quit (Quit: leaving)
2017-02-10T23:00:06Z Younder: couldn't stop kidding :)
2017-02-10T23:00:34Z varjag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_Basic#/media/File:Microsoft_Visual_Basic_for_MS-DOS_(Professional_Edition_Version1.00).png
2017-02-10T23:01:08Z Younder: Though it is kind where we started with that read macro
2017-02-10T23:02:32Z Younder: Read macros are magical and usually dangerous
2017-02-10T23:02:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.coboloncogs.org/INDEX.HTM
2017-02-10T23:03:39Z varjag is adding pcm audio stream support to cl-video
2017-02-10T23:03:45Z Younder: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_rdtabl.htm
2017-02-10T23:04:21Z Younder: Now that one can really ruin your day if you use it incorrectly.
2017-02-10T23:04:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: ACL has an "Modern" version that defaults to lower (or, maybe preserve).
2017-02-10T23:05:21Z varjag: yeah.. was quite a fuss on c.l.l back in the day
2017-02-10T23:05:28Z Younder: oddly preserve
2017-02-10T23:06:16Z byte joined #lisp
2017-02-10T23:06:23Z byte: hi!
2017-02-10T23:06:29Z aeth: I tried downcasing *print-case* (iirc that's the right one) but then debugger messages didn't look right
2017-02-10T23:08:08Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-10T23:08:17Z aeth: "arithmetic error division-by-zero signalled" vs. "arithmetic error DIVISION-BY-ZERO signalled"
2017-02-10T23:08:44Z aeth: it's easier to read lower case, but then it's harder to spot the actual lisp in an error message
2017-02-10T23:08:45Z Younder: llooks downcased to me
2017-02-10T23:09:32Z Younder: aeth, Agreed, messing with the case causes more problems than it solves
2017-02-10T23:10:03Z aeth: If only there was a way to downcase the REPL response but keep the rest as-is... there probably is in SLIME
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2017-02-10T23:11:02Z Younder: Not thatI know of. Nad god know I've tried. But if you figure it out let me know.
2017-02-10T23:11:02Z aeth: (the repl response as lower case in slime would help because it's probably being written that way anyway, and then shouted back at you)
2017-02-10T23:12:43Z byte: does anybody know how is the correct way of writting this (mapcar #'(lambda (a b) (expt a b)) '(1 2 3) 2)
2017-02-10T23:12:46Z byte: ?
2017-02-10T23:13:06Z Bike: (mapcar (lambda (a) (expt a 2)) '(1 2 3))
2017-02-10T23:13:07Z aeth: byte: replace "b" with 2
2017-02-10T23:13:08Z Younder: SBCL is noysy indeed. LispWorks was nicer
2017-02-10T23:13:28Z byte: i need b to be an argument
2017-02-10T23:13:54Z aeth: then this? (a &optional (b 2))
2017-02-10T23:14:06Z Bike: (mapcar (lambda (a) (expt a b)) '(1 2 3))
2017-02-10T23:14:54Z varjag: aeth: when i write docs in freetext i capitalize lisp names
2017-02-10T23:15:17Z varjag: a natural way to emphasize
2017-02-10T23:15:36Z varjag: err upcase
2017-02-10T23:15:37Z Younder: byte, mapcate with two arguments works like zip  except you have 3 arguments and then only one. You need a list of 3 elements.
2017-02-10T23:15:46Z Younder: mapcar
2017-02-10T23:17:31Z Younder: (mapcar #'(lambda (a b) (expt a b)) '(1 2 3) '( 2 3 4))
2017-02-10T23:20:33Z Younder: (tested)
2017-02-10T23:23:06Z byte left #lisp
2017-02-10T23:23:16Z Younder: varjag, seems fine to me. There is no gloden rule there
2017-02-10T23:23:27Z Younder: golden
2017-02-10T23:24:04Z sbodin_ quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2017-02-10T23:24:22Z Younder: good nightr
2017-02-10T23:24:26Z Younder: night
2017-02-10T23:24:35Z phoe: I wanted to tell byte to use rcurry
2017-02-10T23:24:38Z phoe: but he left. :<
2017-02-10T23:25:17Z phoe: (mapcar (rcurry #'expt 2) '(1 2 3 4))
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2017-02-10T23:31:27Z aeth: oooh, rcurry
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2017-02-10T23:32:36Z phoe: yes
2017-02-10T23:32:42Z phoe: this is a wonderful, wonderful contraption
2017-02-10T23:32:54Z aeth: too bad it's not inlined
2017-02-10T23:33:20Z phoe: curry and rcurry allows me to almost completely drop lambdas from map/filter/remove functions
2017-02-10T23:33:23Z Bike: mapcar's probably inlined, and if rcurry is any good there's a compiler macro to make it the lambda
2017-02-10T23:33:36Z phoe: Bike: I'm actually curious
2017-02-10T23:33:57Z paule32: i mess up
2017-02-10T23:34:07Z Bike: ...ok, alexandria has one for curry but not rcurry
2017-02-10T23:34:07Z paule32: clisp can't be compile with gcc 4.8
2017-02-10T23:34:12Z phoe: Bike: yes. exactly.
2017-02-10T23:34:34Z phoe: Should I write one?
2017-02-10T23:34:44Z paule32: what lisp version, that are free, do you use?
2017-02-10T23:34:56Z phoe: paule32: SBCL
2017-02-10T23:34:57Z phoe: CCL
2017-02-10T23:35:05Z phoe: ECL perhaps
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2017-02-10T23:36:00Z paule32: is it future safe?
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2017-02-10T23:36:23Z aeth: Bike: well that's unfortunate
2017-02-10T23:36:32Z phoe: Bike: uh
2017-02-10T23:36:33Z phoe: https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/b1c6ee03c41e0db97989ae38e70da4d8263e09d1/functions.lisp#L124
2017-02-10T23:36:46Z phoe: can we copy all of this and basically replace L131 with
2017-02-10T23:37:11Z aeth: wait
2017-02-10T23:37:13Z phoe: no, wait, we can't
2017-02-10T23:37:19Z phoe: this ain't this simple
2017-02-10T23:37:32Z aeth: all this arguing over the optimal way to do something trivial might actually produce a patch to alexandria, wow
2017-02-10T23:37:38Z phoe: aeth: yes
2017-02-10T23:37:41Z phoe: I love this workflow
2017-02-10T23:37:46Z phoe: from ideas to concrete things
2017-02-10T23:38:04Z aeth: phoe: but we get our ideas from concrete things
2017-02-10T23:38:22Z phoe: aeth: it's a sign of a working loopback
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2017-02-10T23:38:51Z phoe: question - can we write a compiler macro for RCURRY?
2017-02-10T23:38:54Z phoe: like, is it possible?
2017-02-10T23:39:10Z phoe: don't we need to know the amount of arguments the function takes beforehand?
2017-02-10T23:40:49Z phoe: we cannot do (lambda (&rest rest some-arg) ...) after all.
2017-02-10T23:41:17Z phoe: so there is always going to be function application, we need to compute the list of arguments dynamically.
2017-02-10T23:41:46Z phoe: fuck, I suspect that m-v-c is going to be the smartest that we can do.
2017-02-10T23:42:10Z jamtho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-10T23:42:20Z aeth: well, at least now I learned that I can do curry in CL through alexandria
2017-02-10T23:42:42Z aeth: (mapcar (curry #'expt 2) '(1 2 3 4))
2017-02-10T23:43:01Z phoe: well, we can't inline rcurry.
2017-02-10T23:43:16Z phoe: oh well, I use it so rarely nonetheless~
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2017-02-10T23:43:41Z phoe: welp
2017-02-10T23:43:54Z phoe: Wade from WCL is insanely fast about fixing issues
2017-02-10T23:44:14Z phoe: and pretty active on github, too
2017-02-10T23:45:08Z phoe: I'll try building WCL again tomorrow.
2017-02-10T23:45:14Z phoe: mrottenkolber: ^
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2017-02-10T23:46:44Z Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/+79EC the obvious one
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2017-02-10T23:47:15Z phoe: Bike: that's basically declare inline
2017-02-10T23:47:15Z rumbler3_: Younder: what kinds of things do you finalize with Haskell?
2017-02-10T23:47:26Z Bike: phoe: yeah, but without a values-list
2017-02-10T23:48:00Z phoe: Bike: hm
2017-02-10T23:48:15Z mrottenkolber: how is that ovious :^)
2017-02-10T23:48:23Z mrottenkolber: obvious*
2017-02-10T23:48:25Z phoe: right.
2017-02-10T23:48:29Z phoe: two function calls less.
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2017-02-10T23:49:06Z phoe: one function call less, sorry.
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2017-02-10T23:51:18Z phoe: beach: ^
2017-02-10T23:51:19Z phoe: beach: https://github.com/keithj/alexandria/blob/b1c6ee03c41e0db97989ae38e70da4d8263e09d1/functions.lisp#L124
2017-02-10T23:51:20Z mrottenkolber: Bike: why the dynamic-extent?
2017-02-10T23:51:25Z phoe: beach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338772
2017-02-10T23:52:29Z aeth: (left) curry is in so many places in my code
2017-02-10T23:52:46Z phoe: Bike: woah, right
2017-02-10T23:52:51Z phoe: I think you might have meant OPTIMIZE in there
2017-02-10T23:53:02Z phoe: but no, wait
2017-02-10T23:53:04Z Bike: ???
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2017-02-10T23:53:56Z phoe: dynamic-extent there sounds sane because all elements of MORE will be passed to VALUES-LIST
2017-02-10T23:54:18Z phoe: and ultimately to FUN
2017-02-10T23:54:25Z Bike: i just copied it from the definition. but yes.
2017-02-10T23:54:31Z phoe: and FUN will decide later what to do with them.
2017-02-10T23:54:42Z Bike: it's not about the elements, it's saying the rest list itself is dynamic extent.
2017-02-10T23:54:48Z Bike: since it's only used for values-list.
2017-02-10T23:54:51Z phoe: Bike: wouldn't (declare (optimize (speed 3) (safety 1) (debug 1))) also fit in there? just to align it with the rest of alexandria.
2017-02-10T23:54:56Z aeth: hmm... Just the way most functions tend to be written, left curry seems to be more common than right...
2017-02-10T23:54:57Z phoe: Bike: yes yes, I know.
2017-02-10T23:55:09Z phoe: The list itself can be stack-allocated.
2017-02-10T23:55:28Z phoe: aeth: because you have a lot of &key, &optional and &rest params which are on the right
2017-02-10T23:55:36Z phoe: and a lot of non-optional params which are on the left
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2017-02-10T23:56:00Z aeth: well I think that's because the thing that's usually fixed is on the left, for whatever reason
2017-02-10T23:56:08Z aeth: when it's not something like #'+ where order doesn't matter
2017-02-10T23:56:11Z phoe: aeth: "whatever reason"
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2017-02-10T23:56:27Z phoe: I'd rather have fixed things on the left
2017-02-10T23:56:33Z aeth: e.g. (elt foo 0) <- foo is usually what you want to curry and keep the same
2017-02-10T23:56:42Z phoe: so the right can extend and/or shrink as I want it to
2017-02-10T23:56:45Z aeth: it's only the legacy stuff like (nth 0 foo) that tend to be different
2017-02-10T23:56:55Z phoe: it's a part of being LTR writing, too
2017-02-10T23:56:57Z aeth: phoe: right, you're probably right
2017-02-10T23:57:14Z aeth: I think, though, that there's like 1 thing I could rcurry and dozens I could curry
2017-02-10T23:57:17Z phoe: aeth: are you saying I should rather be RCURRY'd?
2017-02-10T23:57:31Z aeth: probably
2017-02-10T23:57:40Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving)
2017-02-10T23:57:41Z phoe: anyway
2017-02-10T23:57:42Z phoe: night
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2017-02-10T23:57:52Z mrottenkolber: doesn't dynamic-extent mean the returned closure isnt thread-safe?
2017-02-10T23:57:55Z phoe (sleep (* 7 60 60))
2017-02-10T23:58:34Z phoe: mrottenkolber: we only declare the REST variable to be DX
2017-02-10T23:58:39Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2017-02-10T23:58:48Z phoe: the closure itself doesn't know about the REST variable
2017-02-10T23:59:05Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-10T23:59:07Z phoe: uh I mean
2017-02-10T23:59:24Z phoe: this list does not leak outside the function's dynamic extent.
2017-02-10T23:59:29Z phoe: it is otherwise inaccessible.
2017-02-10T23:59:32Z phoe: clhs otherwise inaccessible
2017-02-10T23:59:52Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/26_glo_o.htm
2017-02-11T00:00:08Z mrottenkolber: http://mr.gy/ansi-common-lisp/dynamic_002dextent.html
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2017-02-11T00:00:36Z phoe: clhs dynamic-extent
2017-02-11T00:00:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_dynami.htm
2017-02-11T00:01:32Z phoe: mrottenkolber: but what do you mean, thread-safe?
2017-02-11T00:03:17Z mrottenkolber: D'oh, I confused it with load-time-value...
2017-02-11T00:03:21Z mrottenkolber: its late
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2017-02-11T00:03:33Z phoe: what you're telling the compiler is, when you're compiling this function, you can allocate REST not on the heap but on the stack - so you do not need to cons but instead you can reserve some stack to put REST on.
2017-02-11T00:03:55Z phoe: Bike: actual question though, is it really useful to DX this variable?
2017-02-11T00:04:10Z phoe: like, can the compiler figure out that this is a list and therefore of variable size?
2017-02-11T00:04:27Z Bike: variable size? what's that have to do with it?
2017-02-11T00:04:40Z phoe: so when I call this function with '(1 2 3 4 5), it will actually figure out that it needs to reserve five cons cells on the stack?
2017-02-11T00:04:47Z Bike: oh. right.
2017-02-11T00:04:54Z Bike: sbcl manual says it can do it.
2017-02-11T00:04:58Z phoe: or will it just reserve one spot for either NIL or CONS?
2017-02-11T00:05:02Z phoe: Bike: oh, good for it then.
2017-02-11T00:05:28Z phoe: so it'll reserve five spots, copy the values, and then jump into the function body.
2017-02-11T00:07:11Z aeth: It looks like curry gets rid of 13 lambdas very easily
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2017-02-11T00:08:21Z Bike: i think it's advice for callers.
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2017-02-11T00:10:09Z phoe: aeth: it does.
2017-02-11T00:10:31Z phoe funcall sleep
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2017-02-11T00:24:12Z aeth: lerping two sequences becomes (map 'result-sequence-type (curry #'lerp time) sequence-1 sequence-2)
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2017-02-11T00:55:07Z paule32: hello
2017-02-11T00:55:10Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/552784/14867744/
2017-02-11T00:55:27Z paule32: see line 48
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2017-02-11T00:55:34Z paule32: is it an error?
2017-02-11T00:56:47Z Bike: seems to be something in babel, so not your problem
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2017-02-11T00:56:59Z Bike: this code is kind of atrocious though
2017-02-11T00:57:48Z paule32: atrocious?
2017-02-11T00:58:05Z Bike: like, the definition of 'init'
2017-02-11T00:58:23Z Bike: you know qtApplication(...) is not how a function call is written, right?
2017-02-11T00:58:55Z cromachina: cffi has a 'defcfun' to do what you are doing with (defun QtApplication ...
2017-02-11T00:59:00Z paule32: defun
2017-02-11T00:59:25Z cromachina: yes, defun
2017-02-11T00:59:54Z paule32: and the output before?
2017-02-11T01:00:06Z paule32: can be cut?
2017-02-11T01:00:16Z cromachina: i am not sure what you are asking
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2017-02-11T01:01:01Z paule32: the output: WARNJNG .. can this texts denied while running/start
2017-02-11T01:01:13Z paule32: WARNING
2017-02-11T01:01:35Z cromachina: should be fine, i think you have worse problems at the moment
2017-02-11T01:02:15Z paule32: but the unicode thing
2017-02-11T01:02:22Z paule32: the code will not compile?
2017-02-11T01:03:00Z cromachina: it will, but it will probably not do what you are expecting
2017-02-11T01:03:10Z paule32: ah, ok
2017-02-11T01:03:37Z paule32: i confused: 0 errors, 0 warnings
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2017-02-11T01:07:55Z cromachina: this should get you a bit closer to your intent, i think
2017-02-11T01:07:56Z cromachina: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338776
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2017-02-11T01:31:00Z paule32: cromachina: i have clone your code, but i get warnings like before
2017-02-11T01:31:09Z paule32:  *** - FORMAT
2017-02-11T01:31:16Z paule32: but no output
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2017-02-11T01:32:29Z cromachina: warnings are because you are reloading some already loaded system
2017-02-11T01:32:44Z cromachina: there is no output because you are not doing anything
2017-02-11T01:32:50Z paule32: http://dbase.center/data/gl/
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2017-02-11T01:35:47Z cromachina: you have to call init somewhere
2017-02-11T01:36:57Z cromachina: either in your program or in the repl
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2017-02-11T01:41:58Z paule32: cromachina: see start.lisp line 107
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2017-02-11T01:46:39Z aeth: paule32: (setq letter-count (+ letter-count 1)) is equivalent to (incf letter-count)
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2017-02-11T01:47:28Z paule32: aeth: thx for the tip
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2017-02-11T01:48:13Z paule32: i very tiered, have to go bed
2017-02-11T01:48:19Z paule32: till later
2017-02-11T01:48:23Z paule32: n8
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2017-02-11T02:10:50Z Fare: hi.
2017-02-11T02:11:03Z Fare: which json system do you recommend? cl-json?
2017-02-11T02:12:26Z Fare reads https://sites.google.com/site/sabraonthehill/home/json-libraries and hopes it's up to date
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2017-02-11T02:36:05Z cromachina: cl-json works fine, just watch out when encoding.. symbols get converted to camelCase instead of "strings"
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2017-02-11T02:54:48Z Fare: cromachina, thanks!
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2017-02-11T03:51:00Z drmeister: Hi - I wonder if any kind soul could give me some feedback on a compiler macro I'm writing:
2017-02-11T03:51:12Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/WV3tbFIY/
2017-02-11T03:52:12Z drmeister: There are a few non-standard features.   &va-rest is like &rest but it returns a wrapped C va_list structure that can be iterated over to get elements and (va-list-length xxx) returns the length.
2017-02-11T03:52:36Z cross quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-02-11T03:52:50Z drmeister: core:multiple-value-foreign-call creates a direct C-style call to a function named with a string - like "fast_apply0", "fast_apply1" etc.
2017-02-11T03:53:18Z drmeister: The rest is standard Common lisp.
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2017-02-11T03:53:51Z drmeister: Oh wait - I see a problem already.   My ,@ doesn't know how to expand va_lists
2017-02-11T03:54:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HaEDfjK7/
2017-02-11T03:54:33Z LiamH: rubber duck debugging, #lisp to the rescue
2017-02-11T03:55:05Z Bike: does using vargs even help if you need a list out of it?
2017-02-11T03:55:35Z drmeister: I use (core:list-from-va-list va-list)
2017-02-11T03:55:54Z drmeister: What is , (comma) called again?
2017-02-11T03:56:10Z drmeister: and ,@
2017-02-11T03:56:16Z Bike: uh... i usually just say comma. unquote and splice, if you like
2017-02-11T03:56:31Z drmeister: unquote and splice - thank you.
2017-02-11T03:56:39Z Bike: the error should be a type error
2017-02-11T03:56:48Z drmeister: I see I left out some unquote and splice.
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2017-02-11T03:57:34Z Bike: which you can do easily with etypecase
2017-02-11T03:58:12Z Bike: oh, you need to bind it though. right now it'll do multiple evaluation.
2017-02-11T03:58:38Z Bike: same with args actually. and does this work with spreadable arguments?
2017-02-11T03:58:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/NxqOE5Vs/
2017-02-11T03:59:15Z drmeister: spreadable arguments?
2017-02-11T03:59:16Z Bike: i guess it wouldn't, you need like, list*-from-va-list
2017-02-11T03:59:23Z Bike: (apply #'foo 4 5 list) is legal
2017-02-11T03:59:40Z Bike: short for (apply #'foo (list* 4 5 list)), more or less
2017-02-11T03:59:53Z Bike: right now this looks more like funcall actually, i guess
2017-02-11T04:00:28Z drmeister: It's designed to handle spreadable arguments
2017-02-11T04:01:16Z Bike: so if you do (apply #'foo 4 5 list), what does (list-from-va-list args) return?
2017-02-11T04:02:05Z Bike: from the name i would expect a three element list, 4, 5, and then the list, and that's wrong
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2017-02-11T04:04:13Z Bike: also i'm assuming multiple-value-foreign-call means it /returns/ multiple values, rather than interprets its argument forms like multiple-value-call does?
2017-02-11T04:04:30Z drmeister: Hang on.   Unquote appears to work with va-lists
2017-02-11T04:04:42Z drmeister: I don't remember programming it to do that.
2017-02-11T04:05:18Z Bike: well (foo ,@bar) is probably just (append '(foo) bar) or something, so if append works with valists no problemo
2017-02-11T04:05:41Z Bike: or (list* foo bar) would be the less dumb way actually
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2017-02-11T04:13:48Z drmeister: (compiler-macroexpand '(apply #'foo 1 2 nil)) -->
2017-02-11T04:13:49Z drmeister: (MULTIPLE-VALUE-FOREIGN-CALL "fast_apply2"
2017-02-11T04:13:49Z drmeister:                              (ETYPECASE #'FOO
2017-02-11T04:13:49Z drmeister:                                (FUNCTION #'FOO)
2017-02-11T04:13:49Z drmeister:                                (SYMBOL (SYMBOL-FUNCTION #'FOO)))
2017-02-11T04:13:49Z drmeister:                              1
2017-02-11T04:13:49Z drmeister:                              2
2017-02-11T04:13:50Z drmeister:                              NIL)
2017-02-11T04:13:50Z drmeister: CL-USER>
2017-02-11T04:14:33Z Bike: guess that works then.
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2017-02-11T04:16:12Z drmeister: I'm going to create "fast_apply0" ... "fast_apply7" - different versions for each arity of spreadable arguments.   Is there any argument to create more?
2017-02-11T04:16:40Z drmeister: Then a general one that works for 8 or more spreadable arguments
2017-02-11T04:17:12Z Bike: that seems sufficient to me.
2017-02-11T04:17:34Z Quadrescence: 256k should be good enough for anyone etc
2017-02-11T04:17:48Z drmeister: And your type inference will take care of the etypecase - if that info is available - correct?
2017-02-11T04:18:09Z Bike: if typecase expands into typep and typep expands into typeq, sure.
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2017-02-11T04:18:22Z drmeister: I certainly hope it does.
2017-02-11T04:18:38Z Bike: you do need to fix the multiple evaluation thing though. someone could do something stupid like (apply (setf ...) ...)
2017-02-11T04:19:44Z Bike: well, actually there's that whole boolean silliness to fix too, ugh
2017-02-11T04:26:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/S3Cp3PF8/
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2017-02-11T04:27:04Z Bike: uh, the naming scheme is a little weird at that point
2017-02-11T04:28:23Z cromachina: repeating patter... must abstract...
2017-02-11T04:28:29Z cromachina: pattern* even
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2017-02-11T04:35:36Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9EB1vNe3/
2017-02-11T04:35:53Z drmeister: fast_apply00 -> fast_apply0
2017-02-11T04:36:21Z Bike: i think having it one case like you did is fine...
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2017-02-11T04:37:07Z Bike: so it should be like (let ((funsym (gensym "FUN"))) `(let ((,funsym ,function-desig)) (core:m-v-f-c (case ...) (etypecase ,funsym ...) ,@args))) total
2017-02-11T04:37:18Z drmeister: I can't.  I need a general case for >8 arguments that gets called like (multiple-value-foreign-call "fast_apply_general" func-desig args)
2017-02-11T04:37:47Z drmeister: Why  gensym?
2017-02-11T04:38:30Z Bike: like i said, you need to bind any argument you use more than once to make sure it doesn't get evaluated more than once
2017-02-11T04:38:30Z cromachina: macro hygiene
2017-02-11T04:39:50Z cromachina: alexandria's once-only and with-gensyms should tighten that up
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2017-02-11T04:43:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TgEYrzky/
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2017-02-11T04:44:19Z drmeister: This needs to work early during bootstrapping.  No quicklisp
2017-02-11T04:44:55Z cromachina: too early for asdf?
2017-02-11T04:44:56Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/9EFJJo0s/
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2017-02-11T04:45:05Z drmeister: Yes, way to early for asdf
2017-02-11T04:45:09Z drmeister: Pidgin Common Lisp
2017-02-11T04:45:09Z Bike: yeah i figurd. those macros would just do the same anyway
2017-02-11T04:45:25Z drmeister: Speaking of, etypecase is not available.
2017-02-11T04:45:31Z Bike: haha, oh.
2017-02-11T04:45:46Z Bike: well then just (error 'type-error :datum ,fun :expected-type '(or symbol function))
2017-02-11T04:47:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/GFtMtj3o/
2017-02-11T04:48:30Z drmeister: That should do it.
2017-02-11T04:48:51Z drmeister: APPLY doesn't work with (setf fn) - correct?  I read the clhs.
2017-02-11T04:48:59Z Bike: doesn't seem to.
2017-02-11T04:49:13Z drmeister: Lambda functions?
2017-02-11T04:49:18Z Bike: the let in the alternate branch is messed up
2017-02-11T04:49:37Z Bike: lambda functions sure, but then they're functions. (apply '(lambda ...) ...) is illegal if that's what you mean
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2017-02-11T04:49:50Z drmeister: Oh yeah.
2017-02-11T04:52:59Z drmeister: Seriously, APPLY is one of the first things about Lisp that I learned.  Here I am X years later finally implementing it efficiently.
2017-02-11T04:53:13Z drmeister: Hi ho.
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2017-02-11T05:38:38Z chu: Hey dunlopsdown
2017-02-11T05:38:43Z dunlopsdown: hey chu
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2017-02-11T07:03:41Z paule32: hellp
2017-02-11T07:03:47Z paule32: o
2017-02-11T07:04:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! (almost)
2017-02-11T07:04:22Z paule32: hi beach
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2017-02-11T07:05:04Z paule32: here:  http://dbase.center/data/gl/  i have some code
2017-02-11T07:05:18Z paule32: start.lisp
2017-02-11T07:05:31Z paule32: i get 2 WARNINGS
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2017-02-11T07:05:38Z paule32: and 1 *** FORMAT
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2017-02-11T07:06:47Z paule32: in qt.lisp i would like to call a C function from .so lib
2017-02-11T07:06:55Z paule32: but get no output
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2017-02-11T07:15:02Z contrapunctus: I get this from my script (which was working just fine before; and I didn't make any changes to my system) - I think it happens when trying to load any libraries (ql:quickload, asdf:load-op)...any ideas? - http://ix.io/1T1F
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2017-02-11T07:25:00Z paule32: you could download asdf and put it in your project path
2017-02-11T07:25:07Z paule32: then
2017-02-11T07:25:35Z paule32: (load "asdf/build/asdf.lisp")
2017-02-11T07:25:49Z paule32: after you compile/install asdf
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2017-02-11T07:26:52Z paule32: then you could make "search"path in the asdf:*central-registry*)
2017-02-11T07:27:03Z paule32: via:
2017-02-11T07:27:42Z paule32: (push "./path/" asdf:central-registry*)
2017-02-11T07:28:00Z paule32: then
2017-02-11T07:28:15Z paule32: you could load packages like:
2017-02-11T07:28:37Z paule32: (asdf:load-system :babel)
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2017-02-11T07:35:12Z |3b|: contrapunctus: check for lisp config files under /etc/ that try to load from that path or add it to asdf search
2017-02-11T07:37:43Z |3b|: contrapunctus: or maybe just move that asdf.fas out of the way and see if it works better
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2017-02-11T07:40:58Z paule32: |3b|: hello
2017-02-11T07:41:09Z phoe: drmeister: actually, APPLY *might* work with (setf fn) in weird configurations
2017-02-11T07:41:29Z phoe: when you pull the setf function out through #'(setf fn).
2017-02-11T07:42:18Z Bike: that's not what he was asking about.
2017-02-11T07:43:36Z phoe: Bike: oh, okay. I was thinking edge cases.
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2017-02-11T07:44:09Z Bike: the (sort of implied) question was whether (typecase (symbol (symbol-function f)) (function f)) is adequate to turn a function designator into a function, and it is
2017-02-11T07:45:25Z phoe: function designator n. a designator for a function; that is, an object that denotes a function and that is one of: a symbol (denoting the function named by that symbol in the global environment), or a function (denoting itself)
2017-02-11T07:45:43Z phoe: Bike: yes, that's what the standard says as well.
2017-02-11T07:49:22Z contrapunctus: |3b|: after a long compilation transcript - http://ix.io/1T47
2017-02-11T07:49:42Z contrapunctus: (this is after I removed the asdf.fas)
2017-02-11T07:50:23Z |3b|: hmm, is asdf loaded?
2017-02-11T07:50:47Z |3b|: and is that ecl from a linux distro?
2017-02-11T07:51:29Z contrapunctus: |3b|: how do I determine the former? and yes, it is (Debian Testing)
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2017-02-11T07:52:54Z |3b|: is (position :asdf *features*) non-nil? or (find-package :asdf)
2017-02-11T07:53:57Z contrapunctus: oh, I can't even start ecl o_o
2017-02-11T07:54:29Z |3b|: ah, that errors is before repl?
2017-02-11T07:54:46Z contrapunctus: so far I was just running the script
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2017-02-11T07:55:11Z |3b|: actually, i guess that last error said ASDF failed to do something, so probably loaded :)
2017-02-11T07:55:13Z contrapunctus: I just tried running only 'ecl', and then sbcl, from the command line, ecl just exits with the error
2017-02-11T07:55:33Z contrapunctus: sbcl drops me into the debugger
2017-02-11T07:56:09Z contrapunctus: I don't understand, both were working fine yesterday morning and before :\
2017-02-11T07:57:16Z |3b|: what is the error from sbcl?
2017-02-11T07:57:41Z contrapunctus: |3b|: http://ix.io/1T48
2017-02-11T07:58:16Z |3b|: ok, so same as original problem with ecl, so looks like system config
2017-02-11T07:58:41Z contrapunctus: oh, I *can* run code in sbcl though - (position :asdf *features*) => 4
2017-02-11T07:58:52Z |3b|: probably put the asdf.fas back (or possibly reinstall ecl if you didn't keep it)
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2017-02-11T07:59:32Z |3b|: then look in /etc/common-lisp/ and see if anything under that is adding that path
2017-02-11T08:00:00Z |3b|: probably under /etc/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf.d/
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2017-02-11T08:04:42Z contrapunctus: |3b|: these are all the files and their contents in /etc/common-lisp/ - http://ix.io/1T4c
2017-02-11T08:06:22Z |3b|: in sbcl, what is (asdf:asdf-version) ?
2017-02-11T08:07:13Z contrapunctus: "3.1.5"
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2017-02-11T08:09:40Z |3b|: is cl-asdf installed from debian??
2017-02-11T08:09:51Z |3b|: (and if so, what version?)
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2017-02-11T08:12:12Z contrapunctus: |3b|: yeah; 2:3.1.7-1
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2017-02-11T08:24:09Z |3b|: contrapunctus: what is the output of  ls -l /usr/share/common-lisp/source/cl-asdf/build/
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2017-02-11T08:25:11Z contrapunctus: |3b|: http://ix.io/1T4g
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2017-02-11T08:42:00Z |3b|: contrapunctus: anything in your lisp init files (~/.sbclrc etc) aside from loading quicklisp?
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2017-02-11T08:44:22Z contrapunctus: nothing, |3b|
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2017-02-11T09:07:12Z nydel: there's a config file somewhere that i need to move every time i update emacs from repository on gnu/linux otherwise slime gets stuck trying to connect swank ... i'm trying to write a shell script to move it automatically but i can't rmemeber where it is; anyone know which (not in ~) config file would cause the behavior i'm describing?
2017-02-11T09:09:10Z nydel: i can always wait until that fedora repository in question has another update and make the script then.. but i find lately regarding things unix and things lisp that i should do a thing rather than write a reminder to do it
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2017-02-11T09:11:51Z contrapunctus: |3b|: sorry, got d/ced
2017-02-11T09:15:01Z |3b| didn't have any other ideas, so you didn't miss anything
2017-02-11T09:15:54Z contrapunctus: ow :(
2017-02-11T09:16:03Z contrapunctus: |3b|: thank you for your time and patience
2017-02-11T09:16:33Z |3b| 's best guess is it is trying to rebuild the system installed asdf for some reason, and failing because it tries to write to a system dir
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2017-02-11T09:43:28Z paule32: hello
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2017-02-11T09:43:39Z paule32: here:  http://dbase.center/data/gl/qt.lisp
2017-02-11T09:43:51Z paule32: i woul like to call c function
2017-02-11T09:44:05Z paule32: but i get 2 WARNING
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2017-02-11T09:44:12Z paule32: 1 *** FORMAT
2017-02-11T09:44:16Z paule32: message
2017-02-11T09:44:40Z paule32: WARNING: The generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION PERFORM> is being
2017-02-11T09:44:41Z paule32:          modified, but has already been called.
2017-02-11T09:44:41Z paule32: WARNING: The generic function #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION OPERATION-DONE-P> is
2017-02-11T09:44:41Z paule32:          being modified, but has already been called.
2017-02-11T09:44:53Z paule32: ;; Compiling file /home/Projekte/lisp/babel/src/enc-unicode.lisp ...
2017-02-11T09:44:53Z paule32: *** - FORMAT: The control-string must be a string, not #:~A-CODE-POINT-COUNTER
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2017-02-11T09:48:18Z paule32: http://[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl
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2017-02-11T09:52:46Z shka: why are you even doing it again?
2017-02-11T09:53:03Z shka: qt bindings are already here
2017-02-11T09:54:59Z paule32: really? where?
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2017-02-11T09:57:49Z jackdaniel: paule32: look for commonqt
2017-02-11T09:58:16Z Quadrescence: THE LISP SAGA CONTINUES
2017-02-11T09:58:55Z jackdaniel: paule32: if you want qt5 and qml, go after EQL (ECL-specific)
2017-02-11T10:00:08Z jackdaniel: Quadrescence: regarding numerical computations, ECL has sse2 type
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2017-02-11T10:03:25Z paule32: but for learning, i would like to know, how to call c functions
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2017-02-11T10:06:55Z shka: paule32: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/cffi-manual.html
2017-02-11T10:07:16Z shka: you have example with libcurl
2017-02-11T10:07:27Z shka: anyway
2017-02-11T10:07:39Z shka: calling C is not that easy
2017-02-11T10:07:40Z paule32: thx
2017-02-11T10:07:53Z jackdaniel: but it is!
2017-02-11T10:08:05Z jackdaniel: calling c++ is not that easy
2017-02-11T10:08:09Z shka: in theory easy
2017-02-11T10:08:26Z shka: in practice, it is bitch to debug when something goes wrong
2017-02-11T10:08:38Z shka: sometimes you have to mask fp masks
2017-02-11T10:09:00Z jackdaniel: apparently I have worked only with the theory  :p
2017-02-11T10:09:17Z shka: if you really need to write some C code, well: that's ECL for ya
2017-02-11T10:10:07Z shka: well, I made some bindings for QML
2017-02-11T10:10:21Z shka: if I would knew how messy it would be, i would use ECL
2017-02-11T10:10:50Z shka: but i wanted something that would work with just CFFI
2017-02-11T10:12:39Z shka: anyway
2017-02-11T10:13:03Z shka: ECL is useful: really, really useful
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2017-02-11T10:13:46Z shka: perhaps clasp will someday be better in some circumstances
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2017-02-11T10:57:35Z Quadrescence: show me the lisp facts
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2017-02-11T11:00:45Z Quadrescence is now known as XXXXXYYYY
2017-02-11T11:01:04Z XXXXXYYYY is now known as Quadrescence
2017-02-11T11:01:57Z pjb: Quadrescence: http://www.cliki.net/site/search?query=fact
2017-02-11T11:02:17Z Quadrescence: pjb, these are the worst facts
2017-02-11T11:03:04Z Quadrescence: pjb, have you written any interesting lisp programs
2017-02-11T11:03:07Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=lisp+facts doesn't seem too bad.
2017-02-11T11:03:22Z pjb: Not recently.
2017-02-11T11:03:40Z Quadrescence: why not
2017-02-11T11:03:42Z Quadrescence: are you slacking
2017-02-11T11:03:47Z Quadrescence: what if you forgot the CLHS???
2017-02-11T11:03:48Z pjb: http://wiki.kidzsearch.com/wiki/LISP
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2017-02-11T11:04:02Z pjb: CLHS is to be read and read again all the time anyways :-)
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2017-02-11T11:18:30Z pjb: Quadrescence: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/facts.txt
2017-02-11T11:18:31Z paule32: i get this:  https://paste.fedoraproject.org/552888/68118731/
2017-02-11T11:18:56Z paule32: so it seem the program is not correct
2017-02-11T11:19:05Z pjb: Indeed.
2017-02-11T11:19:30Z pjb: Are you using clisp?
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2017-02-11T11:20:05Z paule32: yes
2017-02-11T11:20:06Z pjb: You can use #!/usr/bin/clisp -q -ansi --on-error debug
2017-02-11T11:20:15Z pjb: paule32: or do as any other lispers, use the REPL.
2017-02-11T11:20:44Z pjb: Sorry a single dashj: #!/usr/bin/clisp -q -ansi -on-error debug
2017-02-11T11:20:47Z paule32: if remove babel stuff , then the warnings go away
2017-02-11T11:21:12Z pjb: Well, without your source, I couldn't say.
2017-02-11T11:21:14Z paule32: but then Component :TRIVAL-FEATURES not found
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2017-02-11T11:21:49Z pjb: paule32: read: https://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/documents/commandname-extensions-considered-harmful/
2017-02-11T11:22:54Z paule32: http::[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl
2017-02-11T11:23:53Z pjb: Safari can't deal with IPv6 it seems…
2017-02-11T11:24:25Z pjb: http://[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl  --> Firefox can’t establish a connection to the server at [2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1].
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2017-02-11T11:24:43Z paule32: http://dbase.center/data/gl
2017-02-11T11:24:44Z paule32: ?
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2017-02-11T11:25:04Z pjb: Yes.
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2017-02-11T11:26:26Z paule32: is url ok?
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2017-02-11T11:26:43Z pjb: Yes.
2017-02-11T11:26:58Z paule32: see qt.lisp
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2017-02-11T11:41:45Z pjb: paule32: :TRIVAL-FEATURES is clearly an error.
2017-02-11T11:42:02Z pjb: you misnamed the directory too.
2017-02-11T11:42:12Z paule32: TRIVIAL ?
2017-02-11T11:42:34Z pjb: yes.  grep defsystem trival-features/trivial-features.asd
2017-02-11T11:42:55Z pjb: Why don't you use quicklisp?
2017-02-11T11:43:14Z paule32: -__-
2017-02-11T11:43:28Z pjb: mv start.lisp start
2017-02-11T11:43:47Z pjb: it's a script! Therefore its filename should not contain any extension.
2017-02-11T11:43:57Z paule32: beshe
2017-02-11T11:44:18Z pjb: you didn't but the non-def* toplevel forms in a main function as I told you yesterday…
2017-02-11T11:44:34Z pjb: If you did you could load it in the REPL to debug it.
2017-02-11T11:44:36Z paule32: yes, i learn lisp
2017-02-11T11:45:00Z pjb: paule32: be sure to read: https://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/documents/commandname-extensions-considered-harmful/
2017-02-11T11:45:22Z paule32: the erlking
2017-02-11T11:45:24Z paule32: :-)
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2017-02-11T11:47:35Z pjb: Also, the binaries (.o .so) are for Linux.  When running on macOS you will want to recompile them.
2017-02-11T11:52:01Z paule32: i deliver source
2017-02-11T11:52:13Z paule32: i am fan from open source
2017-02-11T11:52:25Z pjb: Good.
2017-02-11T11:52:33Z paule32: and i have no knowledge of all platforms
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2017-02-11T11:55:18Z myrkraverk: What is a good way to return early from LOOP? I can't use (WHEN SOMETIHNG (RETURN FOO)) because the RETURN is now hidden from the :DO part of it.
2017-02-11T11:55:42Z paule32: pjb: i have change the stuff, you pointed me
2017-02-11T11:55:50Z beach: clhs loop-finish
2017-02-11T11:55:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop_f.htm
2017-02-11T11:55:58Z paule32: but the messages dont go away
2017-02-11T11:56:27Z paule32: clisp has a problem to compile enc-unicode.lisp
2017-02-11T11:56:31Z beach: myrkraverk: What do you mean by "hidden from the :DO part"?
2017-02-11T11:56:36Z paule32: from babel src
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2017-02-11T11:57:24Z pjb: paule32: for your error with babel, perhaps you have an old version of alexandria which doesn't take symnbols as control-string in format-symbol?
2017-02-11T11:57:32Z myrkraverk: beach, inside multiple-value-bind I can use return, but not within a subsequent when.
2017-02-11T11:57:55Z beach: myrkraverk: Why is that?
2017-02-11T11:58:14Z paule32: pjb: version: 0.0.0
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2017-02-11T11:58:45Z myrkraverk: (LOOP ... :DO (MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND (...) (...) (RETURN FOO))) seems to work, but not (LOOP ... :DO (MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND (...) (...) (WHEN BAR (RETURN FOO))))
2017-02-11T11:59:08Z myrkraverk: beach: dunno, SBCL doesn't seem to like it.
2017-02-11T11:59:59Z pjb: paule32: you're right, it's not that; there's something else.
2017-02-11T12:00:18Z myrkraverk: Oh, I made a boo boo; my (RETURN ...) is broken.
2017-02-11T12:00:46Z myrkraverk: I thought it was because of the WHEN, but it's not.
2017-02-11T12:01:22Z beach: How can RETURN be broken?
2017-02-11T12:02:00Z Quadrescence: pjb, what lisp code r u most proud of
2017-02-11T12:02:04Z Quadrescence: is it ur cons code
2017-02-11T12:02:07Z myrkraverk: The subsequent VALUES form had a typo.
2017-02-11T12:02:18Z pjb: paule32: err, yes, it's definitely that. You've got an old version of alexandria where: (defun format-symbol (package control &rest arguments)  (maybe-intern (apply #'format nil control arguments) package))  The current version is: (defun format-symbol (package control &rest arguments)  (maybe-intern (with-standard-io-syntax  (apply #'format nil (string control) arguments))  package))
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2017-02-11T12:02:36Z pjb: paule32: you should use quicklisp to obtain up to date and consistent versions.
2017-02-11T12:03:31Z paule32: (ql:quickload alexandria) ?
2017-02-11T12:03:49Z pjb: (load (merge-pathnames "quicklisp/setup.lisp" (user-homedir-pathname))) (ql:quickload :babel)
2017-02-11T12:04:19Z pjb: You don't need to load each dependency in the graph, only the root. quicklisp will download and install recursively all the dependencies of your dependencies.
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2017-02-11T12:04:54Z Quadrescence: pjb, i suspect your cons drawing code is ur fave
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2017-02-11T12:06:24Z Quadrescence: hey fare
2017-02-11T12:07:05Z pjb: Quadrescence: I would like to make it handle circular structures, and to filter it thru an ascii 2 svg such as https://github.com/blampe/goat or https://github.com/dhobsd/asciitosvg
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2017-02-11T12:08:54Z Quadrescence: pjb ur nuts
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2017-02-11T12:09:11Z pjb: These conversions of ascii to svg produce very nice diagrams.
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2017-02-11T12:10:56Z pjb: You're right, it could be simplier to generate the svg directly.
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2017-02-11T12:14:38Z myrkraverk: pjb: you're doing ascii art from lisp structures?
2017-02-11T12:14:47Z pjb: Yes.
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2017-02-11T12:15:22Z pjb: Try: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '(a b c))
2017-02-11T12:15:25Z Quadrescence: pjb is nuts
2017-02-11T12:15:30Z Quadrescence: nutty package names
2017-02-11T12:15:40Z Quadrescence: too long for most lisp implementations
2017-02-11T12:15:54Z myrkraverk: is it in quicklisp already?
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2017-02-11T12:16:35Z paule32: now, i get this:
2017-02-11T12:16:38Z paule32: ;; Compiling file /home/Projekte/lisp/cffi/src/cffi-clisp.lisp ...
2017-02-11T12:16:38Z paule32: *** - CFFI requires CLISP compiled with dynamic FFI support.
2017-02-11T12:17:31Z myrkraverk: Hmm, apparently not.
2017-02-11T12:19:36Z pjb: Quadrescence: the package names are not used in the REPL!  cf. (informatimago-import-export) in http://paste.lisp.org/display/338822
2017-02-11T12:19:50Z pjb: (I just use (almost) all my packages in CL-USER).
2017-02-11T12:20:10Z Quadrescence: pjb, they are by the common folks
2017-02-11T12:21:02Z Quadrescence: pjb, i hope to have a beer with you one day
2017-02-11T12:21:11Z paule32: hehe
2017-02-11T12:21:21Z paule32: {_}o
2017-02-11T12:21:38Z pjb: Unfortunately, the probability I'll be in Bruxels fell back below 0.5.
2017-02-11T12:21:48Z Quadrescence: no one is there anyway
2017-02-11T12:21:55Z Fare: Quadrescence, hi!
2017-02-11T12:22:13Z Fare: anyone here familiar with terraform?
2017-02-11T12:22:13Z beach: pjb: :(
2017-02-11T12:22:15Z Quadrescence: Fare, hey, I want to use LIL more
2017-02-11T12:22:49Z pjb: "play again", contract extensions…
2017-02-11T12:23:20Z Fare: Quadrescence, I love lil, but am not actively developing it
2017-02-11T12:23:25Z Quadrescence: i know
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2017-02-11T12:23:38Z Quadrescence: but i want idiomatic generic interface-bassed code in lisp
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2017-02-11T12:32:13Z Fare: I accept patches
2017-02-11T12:32:16Z Fare: and can consult
2017-02-11T12:37:14Z paule32: pjb: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/552901/16604148/
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2017-02-11T12:38:43Z pjb: paule32: it would be a good idea to read what the programs write to the terminal.
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2017-02-11T12:55:12Z paule32: pjb: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/552904/48681764/
2017-02-11T12:55:16Z paule32: line 73
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2017-02-11T13:20:38Z Fare: Quadrescence, I'm interested in making it happen, too.
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2017-02-11T13:32:24Z paule32: pjb: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/552919/86819917/
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2017-02-11T14:44:35Z paule32: hello
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2017-02-11T15:35:55Z malice: hi all
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2017-02-11T15:42:54Z beach: Hello malice.
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2017-02-11T15:45:57Z malice: Can I call a method on an instance in initalize-instance?
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2017-02-11T15:46:28Z beach: You can't call methods.  Only generic functions.
2017-02-11T15:46:39Z malice: e.g. in initialize-instance :after method, I'd call a function that would return something that I would then pass to the slot. It would use other slots, the other slots are guaranteed to be set though
2017-02-11T15:46:52Z beach: That's fine.
2017-02-11T15:47:09Z malice: beach: Is the difference purely in the nomenclature?
2017-02-11T15:47:16Z beach: No.
2017-02-11T15:47:37Z beach: A generic function has zero or more methods on it.
2017-02-11T15:48:05Z beach: The dispatch function decides which methods are called based on the arguments that you pass to the generic function.
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2017-02-11T15:48:43Z malice: Fine. Thanks for clarification!
2017-02-11T15:48:47Z beach: Sure.
2017-02-11T15:49:25Z beach: What you are describing is standard practice.  You compute some slots from some others, and this computation is done in the :AFTER method of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE.
2017-02-11T15:49:49Z malice: I'm glad to follow the standard practice then :)
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2017-02-11T15:50:48Z beach: In case you don't want to use (SETF SLOT-VALUE) and in case there is no slot writer for the slot you want to compute the value of, you can call REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE and passing it the :INITARG instead.
2017-02-11T15:51:39Z beach: I sometimes do that, because I never use SLOT-VALUE and I sometimes have slots that I don't want client code to modify, so they have no slot writers associated with them.
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2017-02-11T15:55:14Z malice: Fine. Thanks.
2017-02-11T15:56:22Z malice: Can I use funtion to provide values to case, or do I have to use cond?
2017-02-11T15:56:38Z malice: This is what I have in mind: http://ix.io/1T5X
2017-02-11T15:56:40Z malice: (not working though)
2017-02-11T15:57:13Z jackdaniel: malice: what is the last clause there?
2017-02-11T15:57:24Z malice: what I want to achieve
2017-02-11T15:57:36Z beach: malice: CASE does not evaluate its clause values.
2017-02-11T15:57:41Z beach: So you can't compute them.
2017-02-11T15:57:53Z malice: Okay. Too bad, thanks!
2017-02-11T15:57:54Z beach: clhs case
2017-02-11T15:57:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_case_.htm
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2017-02-11T15:59:42Z beach: malice: The idea is that the compiler should be able to do something smart, such as when the case keys are integers, it could do an inline cache or something like that, avoiding sequential tests.
2017-02-11T16:00:36Z beach: I believe Alexandria has a version of CASE that evaluates the keys.
2017-02-11T16:00:40Z malice: beach: Okay. I wrote a macro instead so I still generate the list.
2017-02-11T16:00:42Z malice: I hope that's okay.
2017-02-11T16:01:27Z beach: malice: Oh, in this particular case you can do #.(loop for i from 0 below 10 collect i)
2017-02-11T16:01:52Z beach: If the list of keys is constant at read time, you can always use read-time evaluation.
2017-02-11T16:02:45Z malice: Great, thanks!
2017-02-11T16:03:09Z malice: That works even better, thank you :)
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2017-02-11T16:29:32Z malice: Is initialize-instance :after a good place to return an error if passed arguments aren't okay? I want to have a class that contains an array that has certain elements, depending on its size(also passed).
2017-02-11T16:29:41Z malice: User could pass both, but I want to check if the size matches the contents.
2017-02-11T16:29:49Z malice: And signal an error if not.
2017-02-11T16:30:39Z beach: Sure, or you can do it in a :BEFORE method with key parameters you want to check.
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2017-02-11T16:30:54Z malice: Thanks.
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2017-02-11T16:43:56Z malice: How can I use an argument passed to format as an argument to the format directive?
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2017-02-11T16:49:23Z malice: It's ~v :) ~vT will consume argument and pass it to ~T
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2017-02-11T16:52:06Z fourier: malice: I think it is a bad idea. use factory method pattern
2017-02-11T16:52:22Z malice: fourier: why?
2017-02-11T16:52:22Z fourier: basically just a function which creates instance of your object
2017-02-11T16:52:34Z malice: fourier:actually, what are you referring to?
2017-02-11T16:53:13Z fourier: malice: to how to return error when creating a class instance
2017-02-11T16:53:24Z malice: fourier: and why is that bad?
2017-02-11T16:53:50Z Xach: fourier: make-instance is a factory.
2017-02-11T16:55:10Z phoe: fourier: we can do better than patterns
2017-02-11T16:55:16Z phoe: thankfully
2017-02-11T16:55:35Z phoe: most of them are designed for primitive object systems, like Java's
2017-02-11T16:55:56Z fourier: Xach: ah yes he can just customize it, it is a generic function I see
2017-02-11T16:57:53Z malice: :)
2017-02-11T16:58:19Z malice: I actually provided a make-my-class-name function first, but then instead of putting the logic into the function I shifted it into the initalize-instance
2017-02-11T16:58:36Z malice: now I use make-my-class-name because it's shorter, but it's basically make-instance.
2017-02-11T16:59:29Z phoe: malice: I've seen someone alias make-instance to just make
2017-02-11T16:59:34Z phoe: if length's an issue
2017-02-11T17:00:04Z malice: (make 'my-class)
2017-02-11T17:00:09Z malice: No rules to make 'my-class.
2017-02-11T17:00:10Z malice: :D
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2017-02-11T17:04:13Z Xach: fourier: yes- you customize it via initialize-instance and friends
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2017-02-11T17:09:25Z Fare: has anyone experience using CL to setup AWS infrastructure?
2017-02-11T17:10:11Z Fare: maybe even to write AWS Lambda functions?
2017-02-11T17:11:22Z oleo: what is AWS ?
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2017-02-11T17:14:54Z phoe: oleo: https://aws.amazon.com/lambda/faqs/
2017-02-11T17:15:05Z fourier: Xach: but you can't make make-instance to return nil if argumemnts are bad, aren't you?
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2017-02-11T17:16:33Z malice: fourier: :around, I presume?
2017-02-11T17:19:04Z oleo: ah amazon specific....
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2017-02-11T17:22:35Z malice: fourier: actually :around for initalize-instance won't stop it form returning an object.
2017-02-11T17:22:48Z malice: you'd have to use some other hack ;)
2017-02-11T17:22:59Z fourier: malice: this is what I meant
2017-02-11T17:23:00Z beach: malice: No but an :AROUND method on MAKE-INSTANCE can.
2017-02-11T17:23:44Z fourier: yes, but it is much easier just to implement function which creates your objects and verifies arguments, without meddling whith :around make-instance and call-next-method in case of success
2017-02-11T17:23:49Z beach: (defmethod make-instance :around ((class (eql 'my-class-name)) &rest initargs &key ...) (if ... nil (call-next-method)))
2017-02-11T17:25:09Z beach: fourier: That's debatable.  If the class name is exported, you then would have to prevent client code from calling make-instance directly.
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2017-02-11T17:29:09Z fourier: beach: maybe it is not wise to export class name, but rather generic functions and its "creator" function? in this case the details of creation are hidden and interface is more controlled
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2017-02-11T17:30:57Z Bike: then clients can't, like, subclass it
2017-02-11T17:31:03Z Bike: among other things
2017-02-11T17:32:36Z phoe: fourier: make-instance to return nil?
2017-02-11T17:32:40Z phoe: isn't this a very bad idea?
2017-02-11T17:32:59Z phoe: MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO, if it returns, should return an object which is of type FOO.
2017-02-11T17:33:07Z phoe: And I think NIL isn't of type FOO.
2017-02-11T17:33:22Z pjb: why?
2017-02-11T17:34:08Z phoe: pjb: because we're probably not talking about some extreme ideas like subclassing NULL. (I doubt it's even possible.)
2017-02-11T17:34:23Z phoe: clhs make-instance
2017-02-11T17:34:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ins.htm
2017-02-11T17:34:39Z phoe: "The generic function make-instance creates and returns a new instance of the given class."
2017-02-11T17:34:57Z pjb: yes, for NIL, it doesn't seem to be good (and anyways, we have conditions to deal with such exceptions).
2017-02-11T17:35:01Z phoe: It should *not* return NIL then if you want to write compliant CL, because that's a contract violation.
2017-02-11T17:35:07Z pjb: But I was asking why MAKE-INSTANCE 'FOO, if it returns, should return an object which is of type FOO.
2017-02-11T17:35:22Z phoe: pjb: again
2017-02-11T17:35:26Z phoe: "The generic function make-instance creates and returns a new instance of the given class."
2017-02-11T17:35:26Z fourier: Bike: not all classes designed for subclassing
2017-02-11T17:35:29Z pjb: Then I agree since you say type FOO, which allows for instances of subclasses of FOO
2017-02-11T17:35:42Z phoe: If you provide class FOO, then it returns an instance of class FOO, which is of type FOO.
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2017-02-11T17:36:33Z fourier: phoe: that is why I believe another creation function instead of make-instance is better
2017-02-11T17:36:46Z pjb: There is this design pattern (used often in Cocoa Objective-C), where making an instance of a given class can actually return a instance of a distinct (concrete) subclass.
2017-02-11T17:37:44Z pjb: (defclass point () ()) (defclass polar-point (point) (…)) (defclass rect-point (point) (…))  (make-instance 'point :rho 3 :theta pi) --> #<polar-point …>
2017-02-11T17:38:15Z phoe: pjb: that doesn't look like a contract violation though.
2017-02-11T17:38:31Z phoe: polar-points are points.
2017-02-11T17:38:31Z pjb: No, it seems ok.  But then of course, in CL we would rather provide a constructor function.
2017-02-11T17:38:34Z fourier: pjb: this exactly an idea of factory method: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_method_pattern
2017-02-11T17:38:37Z phoe: But wait.
2017-02-11T17:38:41Z phoe: of the given class.
2017-02-11T17:38:50Z pjb: You said type.
2017-02-11T17:38:52Z phoe: Question: is polar-point an instance of *the* given class point?
2017-02-11T17:38:57Z phoe: Or is it an instance of another class?
2017-02-11T17:39:07Z phoe: class POLAR-POINT isn't eq to class POINT
2017-02-11T17:39:07Z pjb: polar-point is a subclass of point.
2017-02-11T17:39:11Z fourier: phoe: derived class is a is-a relation
2017-02-11T17:39:16Z pjb: make-instance 'point returns an instance of a subclass of point.
2017-02-11T17:39:27Z phoe: fourier: but the *the* word is tricky there
2017-02-11T17:39:32Z phoe: polar-point is a point
2017-02-11T17:39:37Z phoe: polar-point isn't *the* point
2017-02-11T17:39:40Z pjb: (typep (make-instance 'point) 'point) holds.
2017-02-11T17:39:52Z phoe: mop class-of
2017-02-11T17:39:53Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for class-of.
2017-02-11T17:39:55Z phoe: clhs class-of
2017-02-11T17:39:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_clas_1.htm
2017-02-11T17:40:20Z phoe: (eq (class-of (make-instance 'point)) (find-class 'point)) doesn't hold.
2017-02-11T17:41:04Z pjb: It doesn't need to.
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2017-02-11T17:42:01Z serichsen: good evening
2017-02-11T17:42:09Z pjb: Now about the substitution of the instance, it is possible, but it may be better to use change-class in initialize-instance to switch to the right subclass.
2017-02-11T17:42:29Z pjb: thus keeping the identity of the instane as created and initialized by the superclasses.
2017-02-11T17:42:33Z phoe: pjb: it does, that's what I say.
2017-02-11T17:42:44Z pjb: WHy?
2017-02-11T17:42:51Z phoe: "...of the given class."
2017-02-11T17:42:51Z pjb: It's a pattern that works well in Cocoa.
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2017-02-11T17:43:01Z phoe: You give it class POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:07Z phoe: you get an instance of the class POLAR-POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:12Z pjb: and which is a POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:12Z phoe: these classes are not the same class.
2017-02-11T17:43:16Z phoe: yes, it is a point.
2017-02-11T17:43:17Z pjb: subclasses.
2017-02-11T17:43:21Z pjb: So it's good.
2017-02-11T17:43:29Z phoe: but an instance of the class POLAR-POINT is not an instance of the class POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:29Z pjb: It's just a special kind of POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:33Z phoe: yes.
2017-02-11T17:43:37Z phoe: but an instance of the class POLAR-POINT is not an instance of the class POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:47Z phoe: it is a POINT.
2017-02-11T17:43:53Z phoe: but it is not an instance of the class POINT.
2017-02-11T17:44:02Z fourier: phoe: you shouldn't care about exact type of what you get, as soon as it conforms to the interface. in this case - interface of point.
2017-02-11T17:44:34Z phoe: fourier: it's not about caring.
2017-02-11T17:44:38Z phoe: I know that this will work.
2017-02-11T17:44:47Z phoe: I know that this is useful.
2017-02-11T17:45:15Z phoe: It's just that returning a POLAR-POINT from (make-instance 'point) is a violation of the specification.
2017-02-11T17:45:24Z pjb: Where?
2017-02-11T17:45:49Z pjb: Oh, there.
2017-02-11T17:45:51Z pjb: Yes.
2017-02-11T17:46:11Z pjb: So you have to use a constructor function or a different method if you want to do that. Ok.
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2017-02-11T17:48:03Z phoe: Yes.
2017-02-11T17:48:13Z phoe: (make-point ...) can return whatever because it's not in the standard.
2017-02-11T17:48:21Z phoe: That's what I'm saying - and it's the only thing.
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2017-02-11T17:48:42Z phoe: It's an useful thing, it's a useful design pattern, it works and is a fun trick.
2017-02-11T17:48:42Z pjb: Agreed.
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2017-02-11T17:49:10Z phoe: But you cannot use MAKE-INSTANCE to make that pattern happen in code that conforms to the CL standard.
2017-02-11T17:49:22Z pjb: Clearly.
2017-02-11T17:49:25Z phoe: Good.
2017-02-11T17:49:41Z phoe: (Geez, too much standard. I'm slowly becoming a walking knowledgebase for the CL spec.)
2017-02-11T17:49:48Z phoe: (My beard is getting longer, too.)
2017-02-11T17:49:55Z pjb: Yes! :-)
2017-02-11T17:50:18Z pjb:  --> /nick cl-phoe
2017-02-11T17:50:43Z phoe: pjb: god fscking dammit
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2017-02-11T17:57:24Z cl-phoe: there, better
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2017-02-11T18:02:42Z shka: cl-phoe: better :D
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2017-02-11T18:08:50Z paule32: hello
2017-02-11T18:08:53Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/553383/48683647/
2017-02-11T18:11:35Z Bike: and?
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2017-02-11T18:18:56Z paule32: Bike: i don't get application running
2017-02-11T18:19:10Z Bike: right, because of the problem that is very clearly explained to you there.
2017-02-11T18:19:21Z Bike: you need a clisp with dynamic ffi support.
2017-02-11T18:19:41Z paule32: yes, i download source, but compile fail
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2017-02-11T18:27:03Z nirved: paule32: did you read INSTALL?
2017-02-11T18:27:36Z paule32: yes, i have download precompiled clisp from *.deb repro
2017-02-11T18:27:43Z paule32: and install it manualy
2017-02-11T18:28:08Z paule32: it seems, there are a version with dynamic ffi support
2017-02-11T18:28:13Z paule32: but i get this:
2017-02-11T18:28:14Z paule32: *** - LOAD: A file with name CFFI does not exist
2017-02-11T18:28:58Z paule32: WARNING: compiling #<STATIC-FILE "uiop" "contrib/debug.lisp"> completed without its input file #P"/home/Projekte/lisp/uiop/contrib/debug.lisp"
2017-02-11T18:28:58Z paule32: WARNING: loading #<STATIC-FILE "uiop" "contrib/debug.lisp"> completed without its input file #P"/home/Projekte/lisp/uiop/contrib/debug.lisp"
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2017-02-11T18:37:23Z nirved: paule32: did you run configure?
2017-02-11T18:38:21Z paule32: yes, with dynamicfffi flag
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2017-02-11T18:44:17Z paule32: WARNING: Replacing method #<STANDARD-METHOD (#<STANDARD-CLASS TEST-OP> (EQL #<SYSTEM "cffi">))> in #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION PERFORM>
2017-02-11T18:44:18Z paule32: WARNING: Replacing method #<STANDARD-METHOD ((EQL #<SYSTEM "cffi">) #<BUILT-IN-CLASS T>)> in #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION VERSION-SATISFIES>
2017-02-11T18:44:18Z paule32: *** - EVAL: undefined function LOAD-FOREIGN-LIBRARY
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2017-02-11T18:45:58Z paule32: http://[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl/ qt.lisp
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2017-02-11T19:07:01Z shka: paule32: first of, that url won't work
2017-02-11T19:07:11Z shka: secondly, probably package
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2017-02-11T19:15:35Z pareidolia: Is there a library that has a function to sequence successive getfs? Like (getf-path place :ding :dong :bar)
2017-02-11T19:16:52Z Xach: pareidolia: I don't think so.
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2017-02-11T19:18:09Z pareidolia: Am I trying a wrong idiom perhaps?
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2017-02-11T19:21:14Z Xach: pareidolia: not necessarily. but loose buckets of data are not all that common in CL code that i've seen.
2017-02-11T19:21:32Z Xach: pareidolia: i've seen it more in languages where chains of access have terse syntax.
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2017-02-11T19:23:13Z pareidolia: Would you discourage nested plists in general?
2017-02-11T19:23:44Z k-stz: damn gotta check out the spec more often, been doing some bit-twiddling - writing lowlevel functions - only to find out later that there already exists `LDB' and the `DPD'! >:(
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2017-02-11T19:26:40Z Xach: DPB perhaps
2017-02-11T19:26:59Z Xach: but I more often use (setf (ldb ...) ...) than dpb. much like I never use rplacd
2017-02-11T19:29:00Z pareidolia: I'm coming from a JSON mindset, would you say keeping everything in memory as CLOS objects g
2017-02-11T19:29:08Z pareidolia: ...goes with the grain more?
2017-02-11T19:31:45Z pareidolia: I've felt this way before. I think I am looking for the convenience of the Clojure data structures.
2017-02-11T19:33:46Z Xach: I don't know what might be a good fit for your situation, sorry.
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2017-02-11T19:42:05Z pareidolia: What about navigation through a network of objects? Are we stuck with (that (then (this (first x)))) of course I could write some sort of adhoc macro, but I'd rather hop on board with something like Alexandria
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2017-02-11T19:43:46Z Xach: For ad hoc navigation, I suppose syntax for chaining access makes sense...but if it's important, maybe it should be named, too?
2017-02-11T19:43:58Z Xach: Like calling an uncle an uncle, and not (brother (father me))
2017-02-11T19:44:16Z Xach: (perhaps not the best example)
2017-02-11T19:51:03Z pareidolia: Something like spreading the "burden" with a couple of defuns / letfns, in that spirit?
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2017-02-11T19:53:44Z Xach: Possibly
2017-02-11T19:55:16Z pareidolia: It would break setf though :P
2017-02-11T19:56:15Z Bike: you can define setf functions...
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2017-02-11T20:01:25Z pareidolia: I found https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.lisp/uc9fLw7i0Fo/HDoDDhx3DRkJ
2017-02-11T20:02:21Z Xach: You can also macroize it with something like (def-getf-accessor paternal-uncle (:father :brother)) and have it write the getter and setter for you.
2017-02-11T20:02:31Z Xach is offering only as general idea, not something to mimic verbatim!
2017-02-11T20:02:57Z Xach: reader/writer
2017-02-11T20:03:55Z pareidolia: I'm always getting choice anxiety with CL :'(
2017-02-11T20:05:04Z Xach: It can be tough. You can just try out your ideas and see how they feel!
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2017-02-11T20:07:09Z dim: hi
2017-02-11T20:07:54Z dim: I'm trying to get cl-charms draw things in a macosx Sierra Terminal to no avail, is it just me or a known problem somehow?
2017-02-11T20:08:50Z fourier: hi dim
2017-02-11T20:09:00Z pareidolia: Xach: ...and spend more time reading code from other projects
2017-02-11T20:09:22Z fourier: try to implement the same in C first to see if your code (or rather approach to ncurses) actually works
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2017-02-11T20:23:14Z dim: fourier: well no I'll pass writing C here really... the approach is the same as the examples given
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2017-02-11T20:24:38Z dim: ok, just tested that it works if I don't start swank
2017-02-11T20:24:53Z dim: it fails with swank started, it being the timer example
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2017-02-11T20:29:07Z paule32: shka: http://dbase.center/data/gl
2017-02-11T20:30:06Z paule32: i don't know why to one say, the url a wont work, but b, then the other say, b work but not a
2017-02-11T20:33:20Z shka: i don't see asd file
2017-02-11T20:33:35Z shka: ah, this start thingi?
2017-02-11T20:33:43Z shka: paule32: isTypeNumber
2017-02-11T20:33:49Z shka: stop the madness
2017-02-11T20:34:15Z paule32: shka: qt.lisp
2017-02-11T20:34:19Z shka: as for your problem
2017-02-11T20:34:31Z shka: decfun and friends are in the cffi package
2017-02-11T20:34:40Z shka: which you are not :using
2017-02-11T20:35:05Z shka: so cffi:defcallback for instance
2017-02-11T20:35:29Z shka: grab yourself some proper development env
2017-02-11T20:35:38Z shka: portacle is not bad on windows
2017-02-11T20:35:49Z shka: on linux you may just install roswell and emacs
2017-02-11T20:36:10Z shka: sadly, portacle segfaults for me on linux
2017-02-11T20:36:23Z shka: anyway
2017-02-11T20:36:47Z shka: point is that you would quicker see reason behind your problem
2017-02-11T20:37:51Z paule32: :)
2017-02-11T20:39:07Z dim: ok I fixed it, but it's buzy looping and refreshing static content
2017-02-11T20:39:43Z dim: not impressed with the way it's done in the examples, but that will have to wait until later, the goal being to teach programming to the kids by implementing a mine sweeper together ;-)
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2017-02-11T20:40:23Z paule32: woops
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2017-02-11T20:50:43Z paule32: good night, late here, bbl
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2017-02-11T21:14:29Z dim: well apparently cl-charms doesn't know how to output ⚑ to the terminal
2017-02-11T21:16:06Z NeverDie: Functional programming discord chat if anyone's interested with a Lisp channel: https://discord.gg/NGM7BGW
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2017-02-11T21:26:30Z sjl: dim: cl-charms has worked fine for me, though I'm not on the latest OS X
2017-02-11T21:26:30Z pareidolia: dim: I'm amazed I'm actually seeing a flag
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2017-02-11T21:27:15Z pareidolia: Ĉiuj ni amegas Unikodon
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2017-02-11T21:30:12Z melancholiac: ping
2017-02-11T21:31:14Z pareidolia: pong
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2017-02-11T21:32:13Z melancholiac: :D
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2017-02-11T21:37:55Z PuercoPop: Can anyone come up with a reason that this locally is not a progn? https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm-contrib/blob/master/modeline/wifi/wifi.lisp#L39 ?
2017-02-11T21:38:23Z PuercoPop: I can't understand why the author wrote that
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2017-02-11T21:39:37Z cl-phoe: PuercoPop: xD
2017-02-11T21:40:02Z cl-phoe: yes, this is an implicit progn that could be an explicit progn.
2017-02-11T21:40:30Z cl-phoe: possibly it's something that remains after a refactor.
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2017-02-11T21:40:47Z cl-phoe: but yeah, nonetheless - why use PROGN if we have LOCALLY?
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2017-02-11T21:41:03Z cl-phoe: isn't PROGN redundant?
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2017-02-11T21:43:37Z cl-phoe: pjb: are you using PROGN in your code? why?
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2017-02-11T21:44:07Z Bike: PuercoPop: um... so that you can use declarations?
2017-02-11T21:44:34Z Bike: (defun-cached foo 10 (a b) (declare (fixnum a b)) (+ a b)) or whatever
2017-02-11T21:44:47Z Bike: not as good as it could be since the declarations ought to be moved up to the bindings, but it's ok
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2017-02-11T21:46:33Z phoe: hm
2017-02-11T21:46:37Z phoe: I didn't predict that.
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2017-02-11T21:48:39Z phoe: Lisp keeps on surprising me.
2017-02-11T21:49:13Z Bike: you're surprised by locally being used for declarations?
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2017-02-11T21:52:42Z phoe: Bike: no - I see such a design for the first time in my life.
2017-02-11T21:52:46Z phoe: `(locally ,@body)
2017-02-11T21:52:58Z PuercoPop: phoe: it also messes up the return-from in the function below
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2017-02-11T21:53:07Z phoe: And clearly I haven't seen enough lisp yet.
2017-02-11T21:53:38Z PuercoPop: Bike: why wouldn't you be able to use declarations (assumed they were placed in the defun, which is not currently the case
2017-02-11T21:53:53Z PuercoPop: *assuming
2017-02-11T21:53:57Z Bike: with progn? because you'd have (progn (declare ...) ...)
2017-02-11T21:54:05Z Bike: which isn't allowed.
2017-02-11T21:54:30Z PuercoPop: no, I meant with alexandria:parse-body to extract the declarations and place them in the defun after the docstring
2017-02-11T21:54:46Z Bike: oh. yeah you could do that.
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2017-02-11T21:55:27Z Bike: stumpwm didn't depend on alexandria for a while i think, and parsing a body with docstring and declarations is annoying to do yourself.
2017-02-11T21:56:14Z PuercoPop: Bike: Anyway, now I understand the motivation, thanks
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2017-02-11T22:35:04Z _death: PuercoPop: I can see how this expansion breaks in the face of return-from.. but that doesn't have anything to do with locally.. it needs to introduce another block
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2017-02-11T22:43:18Z _death: also, it's another instance that's buggy because CL doesn't have a monotonic-now function
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2017-02-11T22:47:22Z phoe: _death: monotonic-now?
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2017-02-11T22:48:35Z _death: phoe: yes.. a timer that is not affected by the current time and date settings.. and produces nondecreasing values
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2017-02-11T22:49:17Z phoe: _death: is get-internal-run-time not satisfying?
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2017-02-11T22:50:20Z _death: phoe: that returns the "time of day" in accordance with user settings
2017-02-11T22:51:01Z phoe: _death: "time of day"?
2017-02-11T22:51:08Z phoe: I can't see any of this in the spec
2017-02-11T22:51:12Z phoe: clhs get-internal-run-time
2017-02-11T22:51:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get__1.htm
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2017-02-11T22:51:37Z phoe: oh wait
2017-02-11T22:51:39Z phoe: affected by
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2017-02-11T22:51:46Z phoe: ...huh
2017-02-11T22:51:59Z _death: ah, you wrote RUN-time.. I suppose it may satisfy that condition on some systems.. not on SBCL though
2017-02-11T22:52:16Z phoe: why not on SBCL?
2017-02-11T22:52:42Z phoe: and wouldn't a very, *very* simple monotonic-now be (let ((x 0)) (lambda () (incf x)))?
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2017-02-11T22:54:22Z Bike: that's not, like, regular.
2017-02-11T22:54:28Z phoe: oh wait, a timer.
2017-02-11T22:54:32Z phoe: wait.
2017-02-11T22:54:51Z phoe: get-internal-run-time sounds like a possible candidate then, though it's implementation-dependent.
2017-02-11T22:55:09Z phoe: "The intent is that the difference between the values of two calls to this function be the amount of time between the two calls during which computational effort was expended on behalf of the executing program."
2017-02-11T22:55:18Z phoe: sounds like it fits the definition
2017-02-11T22:55:49Z Bike: but it's not specifically guaranteed and time is hard.
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2017-02-11T22:56:35Z phoe: Bike: sounds like a case for a compatibility library, then.
2017-02-11T22:56:52Z phoe: provide something that's a timer that's not affected by current time/date settings and produces nondecreasing values.
2017-02-11T22:58:31Z Bike: so, a nice thing to have in the standard
2017-02-11T22:58:36Z Bike: looks like it's optional in posix
2017-02-11T22:59:55Z phoe: Bike: woah
2017-02-11T23:01:30Z _death: had some irc disconnects, so don't know if this passed through: phoe: looking at sbcl now I see that it uses getrusage for that.. this indeed looks monotonic (by the description of the times it returns).. when I needed a monotonic clock I wrapped clock_gettime, the go-to function for that
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2017-02-11T23:02:37Z phoe: _death: it did not.
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2017-02-11T23:02:40Z phoe: thanks.
2017-02-11T23:03:20Z _death: still you can't rely on it being monotonic
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2017-02-11T23:08:14Z _death: it also has a very bad precision
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2017-02-11T23:15:27Z _death: (in fact it's unusable for this purpose.. since it doesn't measure real time)
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2017-02-12T00:46:50Z PuercoPop: _death: just checked, you are right.
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2017-02-12T01:14:39Z pjb: phoe: progn is not always redundant.  What code do you refer?
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2017-02-12T01:17:06Z _death: https://github.com/death/monotonic-clock
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2017-02-12T01:22:04Z drmeister: When people load quicklisp systems that have example files - do you go into the quicklisp directory to find them?
2017-02-12T01:22:13Z drmeister: For instance:  cl-opengl
2017-02-12T01:22:46Z drmeister: On github it's here: https://github.com/3b/cl-opengl
2017-02-12T01:22:50Z _death: yes
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2017-02-12T01:23:55Z drmeister: Ok - thanks
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2017-02-12T02:10:23Z drmeister: Does anyone have any idea why this might be happening?
2017-02-12T02:10:25Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/KeEEE4Rh/
2017-02-12T02:10:43Z drmeister: This is Clasp, trying to run cl-glut-examples:glut-teapot
2017-02-12T02:11:09Z drmeister: It wants to create a vector of 'babel:unicode-char
2017-02-12T02:11:30Z drmeister: I'm not sure where the upgraded-array-element-type should happen.
2017-02-12T02:12:11Z drmeister: (upgraded-array-element-type 'babel:unicode-char)  -> character
2017-02-12T02:12:37Z Bike: make-vector is internal, right? does it take only upgraded types or nO?
2017-02-12T02:12:58Z drmeister: It only makes upgraded types.  Should it upgrade types?
2017-02-12T02:13:05Z drmeister: That would solve the immediate problem.
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2017-02-12T02:13:23Z Bike: well, if it only takes upgraded types, make-sequence should upgrade before passing things along to make-vector
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2017-02-12T02:14:21Z Bike: make-array seems to do (make-vector (u-a-e-t ...) ...) so that seems to be what you settled on
2017-02-12T02:15:10Z Bike: oh, but make-sequence calls closest-sequence-type, which i seem to remember was busted
2017-02-12T02:23:20Z drmeister: Was it the problem?
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2017-02-12T02:26:37Z Bike: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/testing/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/seq.lsp#L62 i think this and some of the below should call u-a-e-t
2017-02-12T02:26:52Z Bike: but i'm not sure and endp makes me blanch a lil
2017-02-12T02:30:05Z drmeister: Where else below would you call u-a-e-t
2017-02-12T02:30:17Z drmeister: I've changed to this...
2017-02-12T02:30:30Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oUpBuyMQ/
2017-02-12T02:30:36Z drmeister: That's just for the VECTOR case
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2017-02-12T02:32:02Z Bike: for... actually i was mistaken, the rest imply an element type
2017-02-12T02:33:01Z drmeister: Could you elaborate?
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2017-02-12T02:33:33Z Bike: none of the rest need u-a-et (except array, which already has it). they all imply an element type, like base-string is base-char
2017-02-12T02:34:04Z drmeister: But VECTOR looks like it does need u-a-e-t, like I added - correct?
2017-02-12T02:34:10Z Bike: yeah.
2017-02-12T02:34:13Z drmeister: Ok
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2017-02-12T02:34:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: drmeister: How's the C++ compiler thing going?
2017-02-12T02:36:21Z drmeister: It's fine.
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2017-02-12T02:36:40Z drmeister: It'  common lisp implementtion that interoperates with C++.  Not a C++ compiler.
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2017-02-12T04:01:34Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-12T04:02:30Z drmeister: Hi beach
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2017-02-12T04:59:11Z drmeister: I have two pathnames in asdf:*central-registry*.   ASDF systems load from one but not the other.
2017-02-12T04:59:22Z drmeister: Does anyone have recommendation on how to diagnose the problem?
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2017-02-12T04:59:38Z drmeister: Something that will indicate where ASDF is looking for systems?
2017-02-12T05:00:44Z drmeister: Hmm, it might be something to do with when I set it and when I first use it.
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2017-02-12T05:41:52Z PuercoPop: Should I interpret that "Whenever possible, the pretty printer displays the entire contents of a section on a single line. However, if the section is too long to fit in the space available, line breaks are inserted at conditional newline positions within the section." in clhs 22.2.1.1 means that even (pprint-newline :mandatory) does not guarantee a fresh line?
2017-02-12T05:42:01Z PuercoPop: This in relation to https://github.com/Clozure/ccl/issues/4 btw
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2017-02-12T05:51:05Z aeth: When did 0 stop being nil/false in Lisp? (obviously before CL)
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2017-02-12T05:53:07Z Bike: was it ever?
2017-02-12T05:53:10Z aeth: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/node3.html#SECTION00030000000000000000
2017-02-12T05:53:29Z aeth: "and the use of the number zero to denote the empty list NIL and the truth value false. Besides encouraging pornographic programming, giving a special interpretation to the address 0 has caused difficulties in all subsequent implementations."
2017-02-12T05:53:30Z Bike: oh, how terrible
2017-02-12T05:54:50Z Bike: i don't see any equivalence mentioned in the 1.5 manual
2017-02-12T05:55:34Z aeth: That was written in 1979 so if "all subsequent implementations" means "all subsequent implementations up until 12 February 1979 have 0 = nil/'() = false" then it went away fairly recently, possibly even in CL.
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2017-02-12T05:56:21Z aeth: but it might just mean that some of the problems from that decision persist, or even might refer to the freeze in general (the cond notation with "an unnecessary depth of parentheses" probably is the same)
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2017-02-12T05:58:09Z aeth: Does anyone have a LISP 1.5 emulator and is willing to try something like this? (if 0 "Hello" "Goodbye")
2017-02-12T06:00:02Z Bike: um, more like 1960 i think.
2017-02-12T06:00:14Z Bike: though i'm not looking at a first edition
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2017-02-12T06:03:22Z edgar-rft: aeth: the Lisp 1.5 manual says that the symbols T and F were used for true and false
2017-02-12T06:03:45Z |3b|: PuercoPop: "If stream is a pretty printing stream and the value of *print-pretty* is true, a line break is inserted in the output when the appropriate condition below is satisfied; otherwise, pprint-newline has no effect. "
2017-02-12T06:04:04Z |3b|: PuercoPop: and "pretty printing stream n. a stream that does pretty printing. Such streams are created by the function pprint-logical-block as a link between the output stream and the logical block. "
2017-02-12T06:05:45Z |3b|: (and in the case of format, ~< ~:> adds the equivalent of pprint-logical-block)
2017-02-12T06:06:23Z aeth: edgar-rft: yes, but then (eq f 0) => ?
2017-02-12T06:06:54Z aeth: e.g. CL uses NIL but that doesn't stop (eq '() nil) => T
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2017-02-12T06:12:16Z aeth: although it would be strange if (1- 1) => f
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2017-02-12T10:38:26Z dim: hi
2017-02-12T10:38:43Z dim: so it seems cl-charms is short on non-ascii characters support :/
2017-02-12T10:39:00Z dim: (defun character-to-c-char (character) ;; FIXME: This isn't quite right. (char-code character))
2017-02-12T10:39:09Z dim: yeah well, not quite right, sure.
2017-02-12T10:42:26Z phoe: dim: uh, this does not have to work
2017-02-12T10:42:39Z phoe: a C char is a numeric value from 0 to 255
2017-02-12T10:43:17Z phoe: if an implementation uses ASCII, then it'll most likely work up to 127
2017-02-12T10:43:30Z TMA: more like -128 to 127, because char is usually signed
2017-02-12T10:44:27Z edgar-rft: in C you can write negative words? :-)
2017-02-12T10:45:38Z TMA: that's the lower bound. strictly speaking a 'char' can be bigger than 8 bits, but not smaller.
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2017-02-12T10:47:31Z dim: the C API that's used here accepts wchar_t
2017-02-12T10:48:05Z dim: see http://blog.yjl.im/2015/10/displaying-unicode-with-ncurses-in-c.html for some more details, basically you can rewrite #\u+1234 to \u1234
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2017-02-12T11:03:49Z sjl: dim: yeah the char/code mapping in charms is a bit wonky
2017-02-12T11:03:58Z sjl: e.g. arrow key input, etc
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2017-02-12T13:15:17Z paule32: hello
2017-02-12T13:15:22Z paule32: need help
2017-02-12T13:15:24Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/555033/86905289/
2017-02-12T13:15:28Z paule32: line 22
2017-02-12T13:15:49Z paule32: line 47: *** - EVAL: 22 is not a function name; try using a symbol instead
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2017-02-12T13:17:44Z White_Flame: that's not saying there's an error on line 22; it's saying that somewhere it's trying to use the number 22 as a function
2017-02-12T13:17:47Z dim: the error is not line 22
2017-02-12T13:21:27Z scymtym: dim: in future esrap versions, it will probably be disallowed to define rules whose names are symbols in locked packages. this will affect the pgloader rules CL:NAMESTRING, CL:NUMBER and CL:INLINE. could you either rename those rules or shadow the symbols in the pgloader.parser package?
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2017-02-12T13:22:18Z dim: I guess I will shadow them, then
2017-02-12T13:22:27Z dim: thanks for the heads up!
2017-02-12T13:22:40Z dim: can you open an issue on github, or even a pull request? ;-)
2017-02-12T13:22:54Z scymtym: dim: sure
2017-02-12T13:23:17Z dim is trying to make sense of the hacks-on-hacks-on-hacks that is tapoueh.org in order to have relative links rather than absolute ones, then allowing to put it back online
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2017-02-12T13:25:18Z Xach: heh
2017-02-12T13:25:33Z scymtym: dim: how can i run tests?
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2017-02-12T13:27:31Z dim: you need to have a PostgreSQL database server running
2017-02-12T13:27:41Z dim: createdb pgloader then `make check`
2017-02-12T13:28:47Z dim: make LANG=en_US.UTF-8 check (or test, synonyms)
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2017-02-12T13:29:04Z dim: you might have to install the ip4r extension for all of them to pass though
2017-02-12T13:29:49Z dim: you can also launch individual regression tests from the SLIME prompt, using pgloader::process-regression-test
2017-02-12T13:30:12Z dim: (pgloader::process-regression-test "/path/to/pgloader/test/csv-districts.load")
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2017-02-12T13:32:26Z scymtym: dim: that is too much setup, sorry. pr is here: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/pull/515
2017-02-12T13:32:56Z dim: I understand
2017-02-12T13:33:43Z dim: the make test is the full test suite, I would guess the process-regression-test would be easy enough (pick an example without extensions, such as the districts one, and you only need a pgloader target database in a PostgreSQL instance)
2017-02-12T13:33:55Z dim: but yes you can't really test pgloader withouth a target database
2017-02-12T13:35:22Z dim: in your case, pgloader::parse-commands-from-file might do the trick tho
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2017-02-12T13:36:21Z dim .oO(did vacations harmed my thinking that much? seems so)
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2017-02-12T13:45:16Z scymtym: dim: apply that to test/*.load?
2017-02-12T13:48:12Z isoraqathedh: Oh dear. (timestamp- (now) 3/17 :year) gives an error but (timestamp- (now) 1/2 :year) does not.
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2017-02-12T13:51:55Z PuercoPop: |3b|: that clears it up. Thanks.
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2017-02-12T13:54:50Z scymtym: dim: that seems to have worked
2017-02-12T13:56:10Z paule32: dim: coder?
2017-02-12T13:56:32Z paule32: or is dim maintainer?
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2017-02-12T13:57:51Z jackdaniel: paule32: dim has created pgloader
2017-02-12T13:58:01Z paule32: oh
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2017-02-12T14:03:20Z dim: coder and maintainer of pgloader, have been for a decade and more
2017-02-12T14:03:51Z dim: scymtym: the parse-commands-from-file you mean (sorry been interrupted and doesn't have the whole backlog, or maybe I do, not sure)
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2017-02-12T14:13:21Z scymtym: dim: yes, MAPPING PARSE-COMMANDS-FROM-FILE over test/*.load produced a bunch of parse results and no errors afaict
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2017-02-12T14:14:22Z dim: perfect then, thanks for testing!
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2017-02-12T15:16:36Z paule32: hello
2017-02-12T15:16:46Z paule32: now, i get this message:
2017-02-12T15:16:47Z paule32:  :UTF-8 is not a valid encoding designator
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2017-02-12T15:37:37Z pjb: paule32: (defun foo () (error ":UTF-8 is not a valid enciding designator")) (foo)  ; me too!
2017-02-12T15:38:07Z pjb: paule32: simple solution: do not call the function foo!
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2017-02-12T15:38:55Z paule32: pjb: i have get running cffi, and in C .so libs there strings ended with 0-terminator
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2017-02-12T15:39:16Z paule32: i don't if cffi supports other encodings
2017-02-12T15:39:27Z paule32: as utf-8
2017-02-12T15:39:55Z paule32: may-be my console locales is set to utf-8 instead ascii?
2017-02-12T15:40:28Z pjb: Have you googled for: cffi encoding ?
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2017-02-12T15:41:45Z paule32: no
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2017-02-12T15:45:23Z pjb: Well, cffi seems to be doing its own encoding/decoding of foreign strings using babel, so :utf-8 should be good as an encoding for babel…
2017-02-12T15:46:58Z pjb: Otherwise, clisp ffi uses ext:*misc-encoding* and this should be bound to an object of type ext:encoding, such as the value of charset:utf-8; but again, it doesn't seem to be used by cffi.
2017-02-12T15:47:31Z pjb: Said otherwise: debug it!
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2017-02-12T17:18:28Z k-stz: hey, I can't get the compiler optimize notification to disappear: http://paste.lisp.org/display/338976 (uncertain about arguments types of FLOOR)
2017-02-12T17:19:13Z shka: k-stz: replace (signed-byte 64) to fixnum
2017-02-12T17:19:35Z shka: by fixnum?
2017-02-12T17:19:42Z shka: sorry, my english is not that great
2017-02-12T17:20:17Z k-stz: it doesn't work, also it will definitely be a signed-byte 64
2017-02-12T17:20:27Z k-stz: (shows the same complaint)
2017-02-12T17:20:59Z pjb: k-stz: what is the type of (log number 2)?
2017-02-12T17:21:03Z pjb: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_log.htm
2017-02-12T17:21:41Z pjb: clhs integer-length
2017-02-12T17:21:41Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intege.htm
2017-02-12T17:22:29Z k-stz: a floating point number?
2017-02-12T17:22:47Z pjb: Yes. But we don't know which type, it's not specified.  clsh log specifies NUMBER.
2017-02-12T17:23:05Z pjb: Now, why are you re-implementing integer-length?
2017-02-12T17:23:19Z k-stz: pjb: I don't know! thank you !
2017-02-12T17:23:25Z pjb: Also the docstring is inconsistent wih the name of the function!
2017-02-12T17:23:32Z k-stz: already fixed ;)
2017-02-12T17:23:32Z pjb: Also, the name of the function is very ambiguous!
2017-02-12T17:23:46Z k-stz (was writing bytes-in-number before)
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2017-02-12T17:24:12Z pjb: (ceiling (integer-length i) *bits-per-byte*)
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2017-02-12T17:25:10Z k-stz: well for the sake of learning, how would I fix that (floor (log ..)) situation ?
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2017-02-12T17:26:03Z shka: k-stz: what exactly this function does?
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2017-02-12T17:27:17Z shka: well, all it REALLY does is to return position of most significant 1 bit + 1
2017-02-12T17:27:19Z shka: right?
2017-02-12T17:28:07Z k-stz: yes, it will be used to compare first n-bits of two numbers
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2017-02-12T17:30:23Z k-stz: wow now it runs double as fast, again should have checked out that spec more
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2017-02-12T17:30:53Z shka: k-stz: yup
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2017-02-12T17:55:04Z TruePika: one of these days, I really need to reconfigure PuTTY
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2017-02-12T17:56:18Z TruePika: ...and maybe reconfigure my VM's disk checking behaviour
2017-02-12T17:56:40Z TruePika: every 20th boot, it checks the main disk...
2017-02-12T17:56:50Z TruePika: ...I halt it when it isn't in use
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2017-02-12T18:58:04Z attila_lendvai: Bike: if rcurry broke, then we can just blame it on phoe, because he pointed me to you paste... :)
2017-02-12T18:58:15Z Bike: i support this
2017-02-12T19:01:26Z TruePika: meh toposort
2017-02-12T19:01:41Z TruePika: I found my circular references just fine, but now I need to enumerate them...
2017-02-12T19:02:42Z paule32:   ((foreign-funcall "qt_create_app" :int 1 :string #:|"glubsch"|#) :int)
2017-02-12T19:02:51Z paule32: ** - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (FOREIGN-FUNCALL "qt_create_app" :INT 1 :STRING #:|"glubsch"#|) should be a lambda expression
2017-02-12T19:03:31Z Bike: yyyyep, that's illegal alright
2017-02-12T19:03:31Z TruePika: paule32: A bit more context?
2017-02-12T19:03:45Z Bike: not much to it, ((foreign-funcall ...) ...) isn't a valid form
2017-02-12T19:04:05Z TruePika: I know that, but I'm wondering what's taking the assumed lambda
2017-02-12T19:04:24Z TruePika is trying to avoid enumerating circular refs
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2017-02-12T19:04:33Z Bike: it's assuming there's a lambda because having a list at the head of a form is only legal if it's a lambda expression
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2017-02-12T19:05:29Z paule32: TruePika: http://[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl/
2017-02-12T19:05:41Z paule32: TruePika: http://dbase.center/data/gl
2017-02-12T19:05:42Z TruePika: paule32: I'm on IPv4, no v6 broker D:
2017-02-12T19:05:51Z TruePika: or that one might work
2017-02-12T19:06:46Z paule32: qt.lisp
2017-02-12T19:06:57Z paule32: near the bottom
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2017-02-12T21:06:50Z pareidolia: I currently have 2 files defining different packages, and they have mutual dependencies. Aside from sorting out dependencies, is defining packages up front in a separate file a reasonable solution for "Package x does not exit" type problems?
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2017-02-12T21:12:35Z _death: yes.. or you could use package-inferred-system style
2017-02-12T21:13:16Z pareidolia: _death: What is that?
2017-02-12T21:13:56Z pareidolia: Oh, that 's where every package is an ASDF system right?
2017-02-12T21:14:03Z _death: http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
2017-02-12T21:15:43Z pareidolia: Any disadvantages?
2017-02-12T21:17:08Z _death: might be overkill for a small library
2017-02-12T21:17:17Z pareidolia: I've got 5 packages already
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2017-02-12T21:17:43Z pareidolia: I'm a bit Java-ish in background and large files get unwieldy in Emacs fast
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2017-02-12T21:18:50Z pareidolia: Having slashes in the package names seems to be fashionable
2017-02-12T21:19:35Z _death: I found that it can make relationships between various parts of a program more explicit
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2017-02-12T21:22:18Z quadresce: Do people find that even for large projects, lots of small packages helps with modularity?
2017-02-12T21:23:25Z attila_lendvai: any clnet admins here? the mail system is struggling and I'm afraid the reports also don't reach the admins
2017-02-12T21:25:33Z pjb: quadresce: no, not lots of small packages.
2017-02-12T21:25:35Z phoe: attila_lendvai: I cannot get a confirmation for joining the alexandria mailing list.
2017-02-12T21:25:45Z pjb: quadresce: it's better to have packages of a relatively good size.
2017-02-12T21:26:14Z pjb: When packages are too small, it's a bother to manage them.  Also you could be concerned by the resources they eat.
2017-02-12T21:26:18Z attila_lendvai: phoe: then it seems to be a complete mail system hickup
2017-02-12T21:26:47Z pjb: quadresce: but you can define a package per component, in a large project.
2017-02-12T21:28:38Z quadresce: I am just wondering what people use packages for I guess.
2017-02-12T21:28:56Z quadresce: Collections of symbols make for "mostly OK" APIs but not great ones.
2017-02-12T21:34:18Z phoe: attila_lendvai: feel free to file a bug on my behalf too.
2017-02-12T21:34:23Z phoe: if you catch some admins, that is.
2017-02-12T21:34:29Z pareidolia: I love looking at Quickdocs with just a big bucket of 100 mixed symbols lol
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2017-02-12T21:36:36Z Xach: quadresce: I get worried about stepping on my own names when I have unrelated functionality in the same project, so I use multiple packages to isolate things. but i haven't made anything especially large, like really large.
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2017-02-12T21:39:30Z pareidolia: I get overwhelmed easily when looking at e.g. Clack sources since a package can tell such a huge story. In Java a class can do only so much, which enabled me to do work while drunk a couple of times
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2017-02-12T21:43:09Z aeth: pareidolia: If you use emacs+slime you probably want to read sources with M-.
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2017-02-12T21:48:05Z pjb: quadresce: basically, you take your programmer team, assign each programmer a component, and each define his own package with an agreed upon public API (external symbols), and then do whatever he wants inside the package, without risking collisions with the other programmers.
2017-02-12T21:48:22Z aeth: I'm on the fence with package-inferred-system... I'm not sure if one package a file (like package-inferred-system) makes more sense or one package a directory makes more sense.
2017-02-12T21:48:29Z aeth: This only matters for very large systems.
2017-02-12T21:48:51Z pjb: I would say that it depends if it's library or application code.
2017-02-12T21:48:56Z dim: I use multiple packages in pgloader to help separate things and name collisions, and I tend to reuse the same names and then generalize from that into generic functions when that's suited
2017-02-12T21:48:56Z quadresce: pjb, we actually tried this to a tee, and it did not work
2017-02-12T21:49:01Z pjb: In libraries, you may find more easily one package per file.
2017-02-12T21:49:03Z dim: and I'm a single programmer in pgloader too
2017-02-12T21:49:14Z pjb: But in application it really would be too many packages.
2017-02-12T21:49:32Z dim: I found too that when using a parser (such as esrap) it's nice to isolate the parser symbols (rules) into its own package
2017-02-12T21:49:40Z pjb: dim: you may have a small brain, not remembering what you did when implementing this other component…
2017-02-12T21:49:50Z dim: oh also if you intern code written by the user, having a separate package for that is good
2017-02-12T21:49:50Z pjb: dim: if you have a big brain, it's a curse.
2017-02-12T21:49:58Z pjb: You write code only you can understand.
2017-02-12T21:50:01Z dim: how do you mean?
2017-02-12T21:50:22Z quadresce: I guess in my work I haven't run into issues with my own software having lots of package problems, and I'm not being particularly clever
2017-02-12T21:50:54Z aeth: pjb: Imo, the whole point of structured programming is that I can call a subroutine that I wrote a year ago or 5 years ago or that someone else wrote and I don't have to know exactly how it works.
2017-02-12T21:51:08Z pjb: yes, mixing generated parsing functions across different grammars is great debugging fun…
2017-02-12T21:51:23Z pjb: aeth: Exactly.
2017-02-12T21:51:38Z pjb: Hence the definition of one package per component.
2017-02-12T21:51:50Z dim: pjb: the workflow is that I never generalize until I've seen at least 3 call sites that share the same needs; so I have same function names for same “role” in different packages, and when I realize I can actually generalize enough of the common code then I see about defgeneric
2017-02-12T21:51:53Z aeth: right, so imo memory should ideally not matter unless you're trying to return to something you wrote before
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2017-02-12T21:52:42Z pjb: aeth: the point is that with a big and good memory, you could just not use any package, since you'd remember all the details of all the implementations and you wouldn't reuse colliding names.
2017-02-12T21:53:13Z dim: I insist that colliding names are a feature when given packages ;-)
2017-02-12T21:53:40Z quadresce: packages to me are like treasure boxes
2017-02-12T21:53:53Z quadresce: and when i open a treasure box and it's not filled with treasure, i get disappointed
2017-02-12T21:54:06Z quadresce: one gold coin is not substantial treasure, either
2017-02-12T21:54:09Z dim: have a look at https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/mysql/mysql-schema.lisp and https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/mssql/mssql-schema.lisp for instance
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2017-02-12T21:54:19Z quadresce: SB-EXT is an absolutely fantastic treasure box
2017-02-12T21:54:44Z dim: you will see both methods and also defun of the same names with comparable implementation where I'm not sure yet I want to do a defgeneric
2017-02-12T21:54:55Z quadresce: dim, I'd just do (DEFVAR *CONNECTION*) and not even let it be nil. (:
2017-02-12T21:55:09Z dim: (because the SQLite implementation is different enough from the two other ones)
2017-02-12T21:55:33Z dim: quadresce: not let it be nil? how do you mean?
2017-02-12T21:55:36Z quadresce: (I guess, unless, the connection should persist in the REPL)
2017-02-12T21:55:54Z quadresce: dim, do you actually set *connection* or just bind to it?
2017-02-12T21:56:07Z dim: bind only I think
2017-02-12T21:56:27Z quadresce: great, then make it an error to reference it when it's not bound :D
2017-02-12T21:56:28Z dim: but playing around in the REPL is a use case yes, mainly to debug
2017-02-12T21:56:42Z dim: I didn't know that was possible with defvar, thanks
2017-02-12T21:56:49Z aeth: pjb: the problem with colliding names is that sometimes the perfect name for something is going to collide
2017-02-12T21:56:55Z quadresce: dim, you have to set the documentation separately, though
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2017-02-12T21:57:14Z quadresce: (defvar *connection*) (setf (documentation '*connection* 'variable) "my docs ...")
2017-02-12T21:57:44Z aeth: pjb: e.g. "x" is the perfect way to access the x field of a point object or a point structure, or to (aref point-vector 0), or to (aref point-quaternion 1)
2017-02-12T21:57:51Z aeth: because it's the x point
2017-02-12T21:57:56Z dim: quadresce: mmm. ok
2017-02-12T21:58:00Z aeth: s/x point/x part of a point/
2017-02-12T21:58:09Z aeth: Well, not really point-quaternion, just quaternion
2017-02-12T21:58:32Z aeth: But anyway, I think it's mostly in the more mathy areas where you're going to get name collisions because math doesn't really care about collisions.
2017-02-12T21:58:53Z pjb: aeth: a::foo and b::foo don't collide unless you use or import.
2017-02-12T21:59:39Z pjb: point:x and 3dvector:x don't collide.
2017-02-12T22:00:20Z aeth: yeah
2017-02-12T22:00:43Z aeth: but what if you're converting from a library's representation of a point to yours?
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2017-02-12T22:02:03Z quadresce: has anyone written any convenient dot-like accessor syntax that doesn't look like clutter?
2017-02-12T22:02:17Z quadresce: (i.e., not a (dot name field field ...) macro)
2017-02-12T22:02:26Z pjb: What if you are implementing a textile simulation software for 3D rendering at pixar, and the point in question is a knitting point?
2017-02-12T22:02:58Z pjb: You better use package to avoid collision between the X used in knitting templates, and the X used in 3d vectors!
2017-02-12T22:03:19Z dim: quadresce: you might find something in http://cl21.org
2017-02-12T22:03:23Z dim: can't remember
2017-02-12T22:04:00Z pjb: quadresce: (-> name field field function field hash-key vector-index and-so-on). No clutter at all!
2017-02-12T22:04:24Z _death: this yearning for dot notation is a phantom non-lisp organ
2017-02-12T22:04:39Z quadresce: _death, :)
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2017-02-12T22:04:43Z pjb: compared to (ref-so-on (aref (gethash hash-key (get-field (function (get-field (get-field name))))) vector-index) and-so-on)
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2017-02-12T22:05:39Z aeth: pjb: only problem is how do you distinguish between a two dimensional aref and a aref followed by an access of the contents of the array? so e.g. (aref foo 1 2) vs (elt (aref foo 1) 2)
2017-02-12T22:06:10Z pjb: You don't.
2017-02-12T22:06:44Z pjb: Now, actually for array indices you could, since you can introspect the array ranks and take the number of indices required.
2017-02-12T22:07:02Z aeth: I suppose you could also handle the rarer 2-d arrays with (-> foo (1 2))
2017-02-12T22:07:19Z pareidolia: I get overwhelmed easily when looking at e.g. Clack sources since a package can tell such a huge story. In Java a class can do only so much, which enabled me to do work while drunk a couple of times
2017-02-12T22:07:24Z pareidolia: Ooops
2017-02-12T22:07:26Z pareidolia: Sorry, double post
2017-02-12T22:07:30Z pjb: It's a possibility. That would also handle the generic case of functions, with some kind of currying.
2017-02-12T22:07:30Z aeth: so (-> foo (1 2) 3) would clearly be (something-else (aref foo 1 2) 3)
2017-02-12T22:07:48Z pjb: (-> 42 sin (truncate _ 3))
2017-02-12T22:07:53Z pjb: = (truncate (sin 42) 3)
2017-02-12T22:08:17Z pjb: the something-else depends on the result of (aref foo 1 2).
2017-02-12T22:08:35Z aeth: and finally, instead of (-> foo (1 2) 3) you can use [foo (1 2) 3] and get the [] notation (you can't use dot notation but in some language foo["bar"] is interchangable with foo.bar and [foo :bar] is close to foo["bar"])
2017-02-12T22:09:01Z aeth: it'd be pretty easy to explain to people that foo(1) -> (foo 1) and foo[1] -> [foo 1] because it's essentially the same transformation
2017-02-12T22:09:14Z aeth: and it'd be easy to transform source code back and forth between the two notations
2017-02-12T22:09:39Z aeth: is a reader macro on [ possible or would it have to be #[ or something?
2017-02-12T22:10:45Z quadresce: yes you can add [] syntax
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2017-02-12T22:12:01Z pareidolia: quadresce: I never knew there was a setf for documentation. Insane
2017-02-12T22:12:12Z quadresce: yep!
2017-02-12T22:12:34Z pjb: aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339011
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2017-02-12T22:12:43Z pareidolia: It really gives me anxiety that there's so much unknown awesomeness beneath the surface
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2017-02-12T22:15:50Z pareidolia: aeth: pjb: I take it you know swiss-arrows
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2017-02-12T22:17:31Z pjb: didn't.
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2017-02-12T22:26:25Z aeth: this? https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
2017-02-12T22:27:05Z pareidolia: It's in quicklisp
2017-02-12T22:27:15Z aeth: well then it's not that because that's a clojure library
2017-02-12T22:27:46Z aeth: this? https://github.com/nightfly19/cl-arrows
2017-02-12T22:27:56Z quadresce: "-<>< , -<><:p The Diamond Fishing Rod, Parallel Diamond Fishing Rod"
2017-02-12T22:27:58Z quadresce: is this a joke
2017-02-12T22:28:56Z aeth: quadresce: in functional programming you'll frequently see stuff like >>#__-0%%%*(^_ because people like to poorly represent mathematics in ASCII :p
2017-02-12T22:29:30Z pareidolia: It's great that these things have actual names, for googling etc.
2017-02-12T22:29:52Z aeth: imo math symbols only work because they're written two dimensionally (i.e. not all on one line like a line of code)
2017-02-12T22:30:21Z quadresce: math symbols work because you can write them with a piece of chalk
2017-02-12T22:30:23Z Bike: whether they work is debatable
2017-02-12T22:30:41Z quadresce: (with a few exceptions: fraktur, weierstrass p, xi)
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2017-02-12T22:31:47Z aeth: well, I mean, + is just a function so 1 + 1 should just be written as +(1, 1) but that's a bit awkward when we compose a bunch of them so we could just do (+ 1 1) instead
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2017-02-12T22:32:52Z aeth: and as long as everything's prefix, no need for commas
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2017-02-12T22:34:14Z _death: it wasn't awkward to Łukasiewicz ;)
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2017-02-12T22:35:01Z aeth: but as far as a mix of prefix and infix goes, math works fine imo only when handwritten well on paper/chalkboards/whiteboards or typeset well in 2D (e.g. LaTeX).
2017-02-12T22:35:23Z quadresce: math syntax is good because a computer doesn't have to process it ;)
2017-02-12T22:37:00Z aeth: Humans cut corners in math, computers do not. That's why the future is for the computers.
2017-02-12T22:37:40Z cromachina: [lisp with corners]
2017-02-12T22:37:41Z Bike: -- hilbert
2017-02-12T22:38:38Z _death: steve jobs cut corners and look where he is now
2017-02-12T22:39:16Z aeth: relevant username?
2017-02-12T22:40:49Z _death: it's interesting that there wasn't a mention of Fortress
2017-02-12T22:41:22Z Bike: didn't they give up on that?
2017-02-12T22:41:59Z _death: well, iirc "they" may refer to those who were responsible for funding
2017-02-12T22:43:11Z Bike: "In July 2012, Steele announced that active development on Fortress would cease after a brief winding-down period, citing complications with using Fortress's type system on existing virtual machines" uh... ok
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2017-02-12T22:44:11Z Bike: postmortem says they still like the tex thing though
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2017-02-12T22:50:41Z _death: https://labs.oracle.com/pls/apex/f?p=labs:bio:0:120
2017-02-12T22:50:46Z _death: oracle patents :(
2017-02-12T22:51:21Z pareidolia: Is it supposed to be wrong to bind a
2017-02-12T22:51:37Z pareidolia: to bind an exported special variable from another package with a let?
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2017-02-12T22:52:05Z pareidolia: A LET form is giving me an unbound variable error
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2017-02-12T22:52:55Z _death: it's not wrong.. in fact it's done all the time
2017-02-12T22:53:01Z pareidolia: Oh. It's not a let form that gives me the error
2017-02-12T22:53:18Z pareidolia: Thanks to inferred-system I can import the package by itself
2017-02-12T22:54:35Z _death: sometimes you want to hide it with a macro
2017-02-12T22:54:38Z pareidolia: OOOOOH!
2017-02-12T22:54:45Z pareidolia: It's the defvar itself. Gotcha
2017-02-12T22:55:09Z pareidolia: If I forget to import :CL then defvar is a normal form, and it tries to get symbol-value of the earmuffed symbol
2017-02-12T22:55:20Z pareidolia: Never forget to import :CL
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2017-02-12T22:55:31Z Bike: use, not import, probably
2017-02-12T22:56:26Z pareidolia: Right
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2017-02-12T22:56:58Z pareidolia is noob
2017-02-12T22:57:43Z aeth: _death: Interesting, I was thinking of doing something similar with ASCII-source->LaTeX that's talked about here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_(programming_language)
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2017-02-12T23:00:36Z aeth: i.e. if you implement a mathematical function just check to make sure the transformation to LaTeX matches what you expect
2017-02-12T23:02:19Z _death: I also remember some CL->TeX hacks (Xof's?)
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2017-02-13T00:40:44Z nyingen: lisp-unit or lisp-unit2?
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2017-02-13T00:49:12Z drmeister: Is there any way to prevent asdf from deleting intermediate files as it builds systems?
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2017-02-13T01:06:15Z isaacfreeman: I would like to make hotkeys for my Mac in lisp the way the app Keyboard does. What would I need to know to do that?
2017-02-13T01:06:55Z isaacfreeman: The app Keyboard Maestro***
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2017-02-13T01:11:07Z Xach: isaacfreeman: like, a lisp clone of keyboard maestro?
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2017-02-13T01:13:41Z isaacfreeman: I'm not shooting for anything that large and complex. Just want to shoot for a couple hotkeys to learn lisp better while making something I'll use.
2017-02-13T01:14:03Z eschatologist: The main thing you'd need to do is use an FFI to use the appropriate Mac APIs.
2017-02-13T01:14:26Z Xach: Yes. Clozure CL makes it pretty easy to use those APIs, once you know what they are.
2017-02-13T01:14:51Z Xach: But I found that writing that kind of stuff in CCL felt a lot like writing straight objective-c with parens around it. Not all that lispy.
2017-02-13T01:14:58Z isaacfreeman: So cl->objective c?
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2017-02-13T01:15:38Z pjb: Have a look at Objective-CL too.
2017-02-13T01:15:58Z eschatologist: Right, and basically doing something like that is all about the APIs you're using, not about Lisp at all, so it's not necessarily a great "learning Lisp" project.
2017-02-13T01:16:30Z pjb: isaacfreeman: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/tree/master/objcl
2017-02-13T01:16:50Z isaacfreeman: Well anything practical will always be about the APIs I'm using.
2017-02-13T01:16:59Z Xach: Not necessarily.
2017-02-13T01:17:32Z Xach: for better and worse, in lisp there can be a lot of making from scratch.
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2017-02-13T01:18:42Z eschatologist: For example, writing a network server for something like NNTP would have a little bit of system API work (for sockets) and otherwise you could do everything in Lisp.
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2017-02-13T01:19:21Z isaacfreeman: Ty pjb
2017-02-13T01:19:23Z Xach: of course, the next time someone wants to do some nntp thing, maybe they could reuse that.
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2017-02-13T01:19:41Z Xach: but there are few enough people making stuff to reuse, the chances that someone has already made it are generally lower.
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2017-02-13T01:20:15Z Xach: it helps to have a pioneering spirit!!
2017-02-13T01:20:18Z eschatologist: A simpler example might be a Finger server. :)
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2017-02-13T01:22:47Z Xach has enjoyed making stuff for others to occasionally reuse
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2017-02-13T01:28:15Z Xach: isaacfreeman: it is good to work on a project that interests you. it may include things that are difficult for no really good reason, where a different example might have only the "learning lisp" hard parts. but either way, if you are enthusiastic, it is easier to keep at it.
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2017-02-13T02:52:12Z _death: trying to explain n-ary xor to nonlispers.. they're not used to n-ary and/or, and if they do, they automatically think of chaining.. whereas lispers have /=... and can check alexandria:xor :)
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2017-02-13T03:09:20Z paule32: hello
2017-02-13T03:09:22Z paule32: :string #:|"glubsch"|#
2017-02-13T03:09:44Z paule32: is this form correct, to overgive a astring?
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2017-02-13T03:10:19Z |3b|: that is the symbol :STRING followed by a comment, which will be ignored
2017-02-13T03:10:30Z |3b|: actually, i read it wrong
2017-02-13T03:10:48Z paule32: ok
2017-02-13T03:10:49Z |3b|: that probably won't read at all
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2017-02-13T03:11:20Z _death: what is that last # doing
2017-02-13T03:11:22Z paule32: and how can i construct string?
2017-02-13T03:12:14Z |3b|: so you have the symbol :STRING , which evaluatess to itself, followed by the symbol #:|"glubsch"| which will probably error if you try to evaluate it, followed by the character # which will fail to READ
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2017-02-13T03:12:57Z |3b|: if you want to construct a string (as in make a new one rather than have a literal), you could use make-array or make-string or coerce, depending on what you want to initialize it with
2017-02-13T03:13:05Z |3b|: if you just want a string, "foo" is fine
2017-02-13T03:14:10Z |3b|: #:|"glubsch"| is an uninterned symbol with the name "glubsch", including the ""
2017-02-13T03:14:52Z paule32: *** - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (FOREIGN-FUNCALL "qt_create_app" :INT 1 "glubsch") should be a lambda expression
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2017-02-13T03:15:47Z |3b|: that error suggests you have invalid syntax, for example ((foreign-funcall ...))
2017-02-13T03:15:58Z |3b|: unrelated to whether anything is a string or not
2017-02-13T03:16:43Z paule32:   (setq glubsch "s31313211")
2017-02-13T03:16:43Z paule32:   ((foreign-funcall "qt_create_app" :int 1 "glubsch") :int)
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2017-02-13T03:20:46Z |3b|: right, ((foreign-funcall ...) ...) is not a valid function call
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2017-02-13T03:21:36Z |3b|: and "glubsch" is the string "glubsch", not an access to the variable glubsch containing the string "s31313211" if that's what you were trying to do
2017-02-13T03:22:25Z paule32: yes
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2017-02-13T03:27:34Z |3b| can't find any documentation for that function, but maybe you wanted (foreign-funcall "qt_create_app" :int 1 :string glubsch :int) ?
2017-02-13T03:28:40Z paule32: it is for cffi
2017-02-13T03:29:14Z |3b| meant the "qt_create_app" function you are trying to call through cffi
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2017-02-13T03:32:28Z paule32: ok, the function will be call
2017-02-13T03:32:45Z paule32: but i get sigsev
2017-02-13T03:33:04Z paule32: maybe  the null pointer
2017-02-13T03:33:44Z paule32: thank you for helping hand
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2017-02-13T03:46:06Z paule32: can you help with this:
2017-02-13T03:46:21Z paule32: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/lisp_002dstring_002dto_002dforeign.html
2017-02-13T03:47:00Z |3b|: what about it?
2017-02-13T03:47:05Z paule32:   (foreign-funcall "qt_create_app" :int 1 :string
2017-02-13T03:47:06Z paule32:       (with-foreign-pointer-as-string (str 255)
2017-02-13T03:47:06Z paule32:           (lisp-string-to-foreign "Hello, foreign world!" str 6)) :int)
2017-02-13T03:47:12Z paule32: give me segfault
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2017-02-13T03:47:38Z paule32: the c function is:
2017-02-13T03:47:40Z paule32: int qt_create_app(int argc, char **argv)
2017-02-13T03:49:26Z |3b|: right, you just used a very complicated way to pass the lisp string "Hello to the foreign function"
2017-02-13T03:49:52Z |3b|: and "hello" is not an array of char* either way
2017-02-13T03:50:28Z |3b|: you need to create an array of pointers, then fill one of them with a pointer to a c string, then pass that to the function with type :pointer
2017-02-13T03:50:42Z pillton: You also have to make sure it is null terminated.
2017-02-13T03:50:56Z |3b| suspects you should be starting with something simpler than FFI until you know CL better though
2017-02-13T03:52:23Z paule32: ok, thank you for helping hand, i have to go and dish me
2017-02-13T03:53:06Z paule32: i'll be back later
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2017-02-13T04:03:32Z abbygriffiths: Is there a way of deploying Lisp web apps (made with Hunchentoot) to Heroku?
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2017-02-13T04:05:06Z abbygriffiths: ((lambda () (possible? '(deploy lisp app to heroku))))
2017-02-13T04:05:31Z |3b|: google suggests 'yes' :)
2017-02-13T04:05:38Z |3b| hasn't tried it though
2017-02-13T04:06:17Z abbygriffiths: Haven't seen any docs on Heroku either. That's the problem with Lisp. It's powerful, but no one wants to use it
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2017-02-13T04:06:47Z |3b|: yeah, smaller user community means you end up having to do more yourself sometimes :(
2017-02-13T04:07:38Z pillton: No docs => No one wants to use it?
2017-02-13T04:08:06Z abbygriffiths: No. No docs means the support for it is nonexistent. So you have to figure everything out on your own
2017-02-13T04:09:01Z pillton: Critical mass is incredibly hard to build.
2017-02-13T04:09:03Z |3b|: https://github.com/jsmpereira/heroku-cl-example seems to cover that specific use though
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2017-02-13T04:09:27Z |3b| doesn't know anything about it beyond the readme though
2017-02-13T04:09:56Z pillton: Having documentation doesn't mean people will use it either.
2017-02-13T04:11:00Z aeth: oh, wow, I didn't know ((lambda () 1)) was valid CL (as opposed to valid Scheme)... even ((lambda (x) x) 1) seems to be valid
2017-02-13T04:11:28Z abbygriffiths: aeth: Yup. You can call lambdas where you declare them
2017-02-13T04:11:29Z aeth: my intuition would say funcall is necessary, but obviously CL knows lambda's a function
2017-02-13T04:11:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, but obviously you need to put a #' in front of it.
2017-02-13T04:11:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: ;)
2017-02-13T04:11:55Z pillton: clhs 3.1.2.1.2.4
2017-02-13T04:11:55Z specbot: Lambda Forms: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababd.htm
2017-02-13T04:12:06Z |3b|: aeth: yeah, there is a special case in the evaluation rules for that
2017-02-13T04:12:16Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: if you don't, your code can't run on lisp machines
2017-02-13T04:12:45Z |3b|: you can define the LAMBDA macro yourself if you don't have it
2017-02-13T04:15:04Z aeth: abbygriffiths, |3b|: On the other hand, picking a language and libraries that everyone else use means changing JavaScript frameworks every 6 months instead of being productive.
2017-02-13T04:15:28Z aeth: So there is a sweet spot in popularity.
2017-02-13T04:15:34Z |3b|: instead of spending those 6 months implementing our own frameworks :p
2017-02-13T04:15:36Z aeth: (If the goal is productivity rather than resume padding)
2017-02-13T04:15:38Z quadresce: it'd be nice to be able to change libraries
2017-02-13T04:15:42Z quadresce: instead of not having any at all
2017-02-13T04:15:42Z |3b|: (a new one every 6 mo)
2017-02-13T04:16:35Z |3b|: and there seems to be a new lisp web framework every time i try to do web stuff anyway
2017-02-13T04:17:25Z pillton: I wonder if it outnumbers test frameworks.
2017-02-13T04:17:28Z quadresce: and the nice thing about every new lisp library every time you look is that they're still woefully incomplete and undocumented
2017-02-13T04:18:04Z abbygriffiths: quadresce: That's a nice thing? XD
2017-02-13T04:18:20Z aeth: quadresce: because large teams in the Lisp universe are 3 people.
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2017-02-13T04:18:46Z quadresce: true, i was lucky to work on a team of 15 once!
2017-02-13T04:21:15Z pillton: You can't be in a state of apathy and stop others from being in that state too.
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2017-02-13T05:20:24Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-13T06:19:10Z smokeink: is there any way to write a device driver in CL that would work on linux or on windows ?
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2017-02-13T06:20:37Z beach: smokeink: Not in portable Common Lisp, but then, not in portable C either.
2017-02-13T06:21:00Z jackdaniel: beach: what do you mean by "not in portable C"?
2017-02-13T06:21:20Z |3b|: depending on your definition of 'device driver'. i think linux has some sort of facility for writing drivers in user-space, which might work with CL
2017-02-13T06:21:42Z beach: jackdaniel: That a device driver needs to use assumptions about what the compiler does to addresses and such, and things like that are not defined by the C standard.
2017-02-13T06:22:42Z jackdaniel: uhm, thanks
2017-02-13T06:23:49Z beach: I read somewhere that a very large number of useful C programs are not conforming, because they need such assumptions.  I am willing to bet that ECL is one such program.
2017-02-13T06:23:58Z beach: If for nothing else, for GC.
2017-02-13T06:24:13Z |3b|: or for some things, you can do the equivalent of a 'device driver' for your own code (common for USB devices for example)
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2017-02-13T06:25:22Z smokeink: |3b| what does that mean, to do the equivalent of a device driver for your own code
2017-02-13T06:26:13Z |3b|: smokeink: for example opening a USB device with a generic USB lib and handling all the device specific things yourself
2017-02-13T06:26:55Z smokeink: ok
2017-02-13T06:28:42Z smokeink: this stuff looks sexy to me: https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/512459b932128d03ce45b158b758d07954567835/net/arp.lisp
2017-02-13T06:28:47Z |3b| does that to get pictures off of a camera, because it doesn't show up as a normal drive like most do (or if it does the drive only has a link to download the software from the manufacturer)
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2017-02-13T06:30:08Z beach: I would like to see a CLOS library, somewhat inspired by Apple's I/O Kit, for writing device drivers.  It would not be for Linux or Windows, though.
2017-02-13T06:30:27Z jackdaniel: smokeink: if you want just Lisp-like syntax and macros to write a device driver, you may try with c-mera (C/C++ code generator written in CL)
2017-02-13T06:30:36Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/kiselgra/c-mera
2017-02-13T06:31:04Z smokeink: jackdaniel: sounds interesting
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2017-02-13T07:47:17Z smokeink: what's a quick way to find the path where sbcl stores it's cached .fasl ?
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2017-02-13T07:51:55Z aeth: Iirc, it's ASDF, not SBCL and on linux it's ~/.cache/common-lisp/ by default (separate directories for each lisp)
2017-02-13T07:52:34Z aeth: Because (afaik) it's done by ASDF, it's probably done through UIOP (its utility library) which means if it's in ~/.cache/ for me, it's in (uiop:xdg-cache-home) for you
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2017-02-13T07:56:13Z aeth: Unless you set your XDG_CACHE_HOME env variable, this is ~/.cache on Unix (including OS X) and (xdg-data-home "cache/") on Windows, which is added to :local-appdata. https://github.com/fare/asdf/blob/90502898375fe183d96cb03cd333d8b3ec09c0ba/uiop/configuration.lisp#L338-L349
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2017-02-13T07:56:51Z aeth: so ~/.cache/common-lisp/sbcl-the-version-you-use/path/to/files/file.fasl
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2017-02-13T08:01:28Z smokeink: thanks
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2017-02-13T08:25:52Z smokeink: what are some commands in asdf that will show paths to fasl files ?
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2017-02-13T08:30:13Z smokeink: (directory (merge-pathnames "**/*.fasl" (uiop:xdg-cache-home)) did the trick
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2017-02-13T08:58:08Z hoe: I have successfully built WCL.
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2017-02-13T09:00:07Z smokeink: what is wcl
2017-02-13T09:00:11Z beach: hoe: Congratulations!
2017-02-13T09:00:29Z hoe: smokeink: https://github.com/wadehennessey/wcl
2017-02-13T09:00:31Z jackdaniel: smokeink: Common Lisp implementation aiming at compiling to ELF
2017-02-13T09:00:32Z hoe: beach: Thanks.
2017-02-13T09:00:39Z jackdaniel: (ie shared libraries)
2017-02-13T09:01:26Z hoe: Bbl.
2017-02-13T09:01:30Z fourier: is where a way to find all recursive dependent packages in ql given a package name?
2017-02-13T09:01:31Z jackdaniel: it features its own GC – according to the presentation I've read lately it is a concurrent GC
2017-02-13T09:01:33Z hoe: d'oh
2017-02-13T09:01:48Z hoe: this is what happens when I forget to type the first name of my nick
2017-02-13T09:01:50Z hoe: ;_;
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2017-02-13T09:02:07Z fourier: i.e. to find all packages which s-xml depends on (and their dependencies as well), so be able to just download them and use without quicklisp with asdf only?
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2017-02-13T09:02:40Z jackdaniel: fourier: try quicklisp bundle
2017-02-13T09:03:08Z jackdaniel: (ql:bundle-systems '("s-xml") :to "my-dir/")
2017-02-13T09:03:29Z jackdaniel: it should put there all dependencies, loading file "bundle.lisp" in my-dir will load all system definitions with asdf, no trace of quicklisp
2017-02-13T09:04:18Z fourier: jackdaniel: wow this is exactly what I was hoping for! fantastic.
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2017-02-13T09:59:43Z loke: fourier: Was it you that wanted to build small executables with ECL?
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2017-02-13T09:59:50Z loke: (or some other Lisp)
2017-02-13T10:00:11Z loke: fourier: Funny, I was writing to you the second you logged off.
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2017-02-13T10:02:33Z fourier: loke: what has you written ? haven't got anything from you...
2017-02-13T10:05:05Z loke: fourier: I was asking if it was you that asked about creating small binaries last week?
2017-02-13T10:06:06Z fourier: loke: no
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2017-02-13T10:10:01Z phoe_: WCL does not even begin running cl-ansi-tests.
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2017-02-13T10:15:40Z phoe_: Does the standard define any stack overflow behaviour that might result from (defun foo () (bar)) (defun bar () (foo)) (foo)?
2017-02-13T10:16:10Z phoe_: Like - must the implementation be able to recover gracefully from this or can it crash and burn?
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2017-02-13T10:17:38Z beach: I don't recall seeing anything in the Common Lisp HyperSpec about that.
2017-02-13T10:20:06Z phoe_: beach: okay.
2017-02-13T10:20:14Z phoe_: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339045 <- this is weird
2017-02-13T10:20:35Z phoe_: it conses multiple times more than its heap size but seemingly only runs GC once.
2017-02-13T10:21:03Z jackdaniel: time is broken prior to 16.1.3 release (in respect of reported consed bytes)
2017-02-13T10:21:30Z jackdaniel: nothing to worry about (ECL doesn't cons that much)
2017-02-13T10:22:13Z phoe_: geez
2017-02-13T10:22:16Z phoe_: I hate using debian stable
2017-02-13T10:22:21Z phoe_: s/stable/testing/
2017-02-13T10:22:26Z phoe_: my current ECL version is 15.3.7
2017-02-13T10:22:43Z jackdaniel: apparently function is optimized well enough to not cons at all
2017-02-13T10:22:47Z jackdaniel: see my annotation
2017-02-13T10:23:11Z fourier: phoe: When I read about you hating debian stable I almost felt off the chair
2017-02-13T10:24:13Z phoe_: fourier: I mean, yes
2017-02-13T10:24:14Z phoe_: it's stable
2017-02-13T10:24:18Z phoe_: it *is* stable
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2017-02-13T10:25:01Z phoe_: except the packages in it are so dated that there exists the joke of yo momma so old they put her in debian stable
2017-02-13T10:25:19Z easye snorts.
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2017-02-13T10:26:22Z fourier: phoe_: yep but I guess users of debian stable couldn't care less :)
2017-02-13T10:26:30Z phoe_: fourier: ;D
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2017-02-13T10:26:51Z beach: phoe: You need to be careful about micro-benchmarks like that.  In this case, since the value of the call to CONS is not used, and CONS does not have any side effects (that the programmer can test for), the compiler can elide the call.
2017-02-13T10:27:33Z beach: phoe: It is not just because you write a call to some function that the function will be called.
2017-02-13T10:27:41Z phoe_: beach: yes, I know.
2017-02-13T10:27:46Z phoe_: I need to return this value somewhere.
2017-02-13T10:27:54Z phoe_: So the compiler can't optimize it away.
2017-02-13T10:28:02Z phoe_: nonetheless, jackdaniel, geez
2017-02-13T10:28:09Z phoe_: in debian *UNSTABLE* it's 15.3.7 as well
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2017-02-13T10:29:43Z phoe_: jackdaniel: is there a 16.1.3 package available anywhere? or should I compile from source?
2017-02-13T10:30:00Z jackdaniel: it's up to package maintainers to update these. Otherwise you have to build from source
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2017-02-13T10:36:16Z zchlyg: What's your favourite backpropagation code?
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2017-02-13T10:38:06Z beach: zchlyg: As in neural networks?  That's not a very popular domain in this channel.
2017-02-13T10:38:09Z jackdaniel: zchlyg: I don't think AI questions fit well on this channel, check out http://www.cliki.net/machine%20learning
2017-02-13T10:38:23Z jackdaniel: mgl is moderately popular afaik
2017-02-13T10:38:28Z zchlyg: I'm asking for lisp code :)
2017-02-13T10:38:46Z jackdaniel: zchlyg: check out website I've suggested
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2017-02-13T10:40:53Z phoe_: What is a simple consing/GC benchmark that is safe from compiler optimization?
2017-02-13T10:41:44Z jackdaniel: phoe_: there is no much point in such benchmark, you want to check, how much implementation *can* optimize
2017-02-13T10:41:58Z phoe_: jackdaniel: I want to check how the GC behaves.
2017-02-13T10:42:12Z beach: How about pushing on a list, and with probability 0.5 or so, set the variable holding the list to NIL.
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2017-02-13T10:42:34Z phoe_: beach: oh, wait, what about (loop (setf *some-var* (cons 1 2)))?
2017-02-13T10:42:50Z phoe_: this can't be optimized away I think
2017-02-13T10:43:18Z jackdaniel: (defun xxx (x) (unless (<= x 0) (push (cons (xxx (1- x)) x) *xxx*)))
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2017-02-13T10:44:06Z beach: phoe_: If *some-var* is special, then you may be right.
2017-02-13T10:46:07Z phoe_: jackdaniel: smells like stack overflow with this non-tail call
2017-02-13T10:46:09Z jackdaniel: (time (dotimes (i 1000) (push i *xxx*))) ; then you don't loos the previous *xxx* value
2017-02-13T10:46:20Z jackdaniel: loose°
2017-02-13T10:46:42Z jackdaniel: s/loose/lose/
2017-02-13T10:47:21Z phoe_: anyway - http://paste.lisp.org/display/339046
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2017-02-13T10:48:21Z phoe_: wcl is very unstable and incomplete, yes.
2017-02-13T10:48:22Z jackdaniel: yeah, I had a lot of these with wcl
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2017-02-13T10:54:30Z beach: phoe_: So the point was to measure the performance of the WCL garbage collector compared to others?
2017-02-13T10:54:55Z phoe_: Yes, to see how it behaves.
2017-02-13T10:54:57Z beach: phoe_: As I recall, WCL promised that the garbage collector would be "real time", not that it would be particularly fast.
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2017-02-13T10:55:40Z phoe_: Yes, I know - I want to see how it behaves with different heap sizes and different garbage generators over time.
2017-02-13T10:55:41Z beach: phoe_: In fact, it is probably a law of nature that if it is "real time" it is typically slower than if it is not.
2017-02-13T10:55:56Z phoe_: beach: correct.
2017-02-13T10:57:31Z phoe_: I want to check out a few other qualities of it though, such as, how it behaves over time.
2017-02-13T10:58:40Z phoe_: It's hard to do it with segfaults though - but again, welcome to the C/Unix world.
2017-02-13T10:58:47Z phoe_: I'm not a C programmer - the best I can do is make a bug report and send it to Wade.
2017-02-13T10:58:53Z phoe_: Which I did.
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2017-02-13T11:04:38Z beach: Good.
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2017-02-13T11:49:32Z pareidolia: I use #+nil to comment out forms I want to execute dynamically from emacs, but I always need to remove the #+nil before C-c C-c works on them. Is there an "official" way to comment forms for this workflow?
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2017-02-13T11:59:05Z dlowe: you could use (when nil ...) and then only execute the inner form
2017-02-13T12:00:15Z TMA: pareidolia: btw #+nil is not guaranteed to skip the form; is you want be sure, use #+(or) or #-(and)
2017-02-13T12:00:42Z dlowe: I think that level of paranoia is reserved for published libraries
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2017-02-13T12:01:13Z jackdaniel: #+(or) is a correct way of doing things and costs nothing, I wouldn't call it paranoia
2017-02-13T12:01:25Z jackdaniel: especially that reintroducing form back is as simple as changing + to -
2017-02-13T12:01:30Z dlowe: Although I prefer my #; macro anyway
2017-02-13T12:02:07Z pareidolia: TMA: whoa. How?
2017-02-13T12:02:18Z dlowe: if NIL is in *features*
2017-02-13T12:02:26Z pareidolia: Is it a feature?
2017-02-13T12:03:01Z pareidolia: I'll make a mental note for (or) since it is a nice anchor for the eye
2017-02-13T12:03:19Z TMA: pareidolia: (pushnew :nil *features*)
2017-02-13T12:04:12Z dlowe: if it's so correct and costs nothing, then why is #+nil so popular? "It's the humans that are wrong" is just poor interface design.
2017-02-13T12:04:52Z pareidolia: Misconceptions about the mechanism apparently
2017-02-13T12:04:53Z TMA: dlowe: it is one character longer
2017-02-13T12:05:12Z H4ns: TMA: it would be poor judgement to have a keyword named nil.
2017-02-13T12:05:19Z jackdaniel: dlowe: cargo cult
2017-02-13T12:05:25Z H4ns: TMA: not only because it would break #+nil
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2017-02-13T12:05:55Z TMA: H4ns: it is a natural name for an implementation
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2017-02-13T12:06:28Z H4ns: TMA: right.  an implementation that has been dead for decades.
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2017-02-13T12:06:53Z H4ns: TMA: calling an implementation "new" was poor judgement to begin with :)
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2017-02-13T12:11:18Z nirved: #+ignore
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2017-02-13T12:13:47Z jackdaniel: sigh
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2017-02-13T12:17:12Z pareidolia: jackdaniel: Never underestimate cargo culting, aye
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2017-02-13T13:39:31Z malice`: hi all
2017-02-13T13:40:48Z ogamita: hi
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2017-02-13T13:53:46Z _death: maybe it's time to start using #+-
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2017-02-13T13:55:56Z beach: I totally agree with jackdaniel.
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2017-02-13T13:58:19Z flip214: #±
2017-02-13T13:58:26Z phoe_: oh god flip214
2017-02-13T13:58:29Z flip214: #♯
2017-02-13T13:58:56Z flip214: ♯ would be a good macro character.... LET, LET*, LET+, and now... LET♯!
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2017-02-13T13:59:16Z _death: where's LET++ :)
2017-02-13T13:59:17Z flip214: LET?
2017-02-13T13:59:34Z flip214: Let :LET be "let"
2017-02-13T13:59:44Z flip214: letter by letter
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2017-02-13T14:06:12Z sjl: _death: #±
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2017-02-13T14:55:22Z Xach: #:~(
2017-02-13T14:56:29Z DougNYC: o7
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2017-02-13T15:17:03Z flip214: I prefer the happy   #:]
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2017-02-13T16:16:42Z pareidolia: I'm doing some JSON marshalling, and I was wondering whether there's work around document validation, XML style more or less
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2017-02-13T16:21:29Z fourier: pareidolia: not sure how it is related to lisp, but have you looked at http://json-schema.org/ ?
2017-02-13T16:22:29Z pareidolia: I mean implementations of such a standard
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2017-02-13T16:44:58Z kattana_: hei
2017-02-13T16:45:10Z kattana_: where can I get exercises to learn this?
2017-02-13T16:45:15Z kattana_: I need them
2017-02-13T16:45:16Z phoe: kattana_:
2017-02-13T16:45:21Z phoe: minion: tell kattana_ about pcl
2017-02-13T16:45:22Z minion: kattana_: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-02-13T16:45:24Z phoe: minion: tell kattana_ about gentle
2017-02-13T16:45:24Z minion: kattana_: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/
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2017-02-13T16:45:38Z phoe: kattana_: https://github.com/google/lisp-koans
2017-02-13T16:45:42Z phoe: kattana_: https://www.ic.unicamp.br/~meidanis/courses/mc336/2006s2/funcional/L-99_Ninety-Nine_Lisp_Problems.html
2017-02-13T16:46:01Z phoe: kattana_: Read PCL if you have been programming before, read Gentle otherwise.
2017-02-13T16:46:05Z phoe: These two links are for exercises.
2017-02-13T16:46:19Z phoe: (Someone needs to make a Lisp starter pack out of these four.)
2017-02-13T16:47:27Z kattana_: thanks, and what about a companion textbook about general cpu instruction + programming language design?
2017-02-13T16:48:06Z phoe: kattana_: CPU instruction? are you learning assembly?
2017-02-13T16:48:15Z kattana_: I understand that most of the operation are similar accross languages. I mean they all got to be able to do this '2+2'. What's this part they all share in common?
2017-02-13T16:48:43Z kattana_: phoe: no, just trying to put a language operation into a wider perspective.
2017-02-13T16:48:52Z phoe: kattana_: https://sensepost.com/blogstatic/2014/01/SensePost_crash_course_in_x86_assembly-.pdf
2017-02-13T16:48:58Z phoe: I like this one
2017-02-13T16:49:12Z phoe: but this is a very subjective opinion.
2017-02-13T16:49:18Z phoe: I don't know if #lisp has a consensus on this.
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2017-02-13T16:52:07Z malice`: kattana_: what are you trying to solve?
2017-02-13T16:52:15Z malice`: your question looks unclear imho
2017-02-13T16:52:34Z malice`: do you mean "turing-completeness?"
2017-02-13T16:52:43Z White_Flame: kattana_: '2+2' can mean a whole lot of different things.  For instance, are they adding bytes? 32-bit words?  Does addition wrap around to 0 or to a negative number?  Does it expand into a larger numeric size to fit?  Is addition also used for concatenation? etc
2017-02-13T16:53:28Z beach: Sounds like we need more information about what kattana_ wants in order to help.
2017-02-13T16:53:52Z beach: After all, kattana_ didn't mention Lisp or Common Lisp.
2017-02-13T16:53:53Z White_Flame: well, it sounds like "I want to know everything in general", which is unanswerable in a practical sense ;)
2017-02-13T16:55:36Z White_Flame: But I will say, kattana_, that CPUs tend to be sort of similar in their integer math operations, so pick something easy to work with (microcontrollers, 68k, ARM, etc) and many concepts will carry over.  As far as programming language design, each has different focuses, and that informs the fundamental design itself.  You don't have that much cross-applicability between Forth and Haskell, for instance
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2017-02-13T16:57:20Z phoe: beach: I assumed that "this" in his question meant Lisp because of context being #lisp.
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2017-02-13T16:58:49Z beach: I hope you are right.
2017-02-13T16:58:58Z phoe: I hope the same.
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2017-02-13T17:08:40Z aeth: phoe: caught STYLE-WARNING: The variable THIS is defined but never used.
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2017-02-13T17:11:31Z phoe: aeth: this is special
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2017-02-13T17:14:45Z aeth: phoe: then why are you calling it this and not *this*?
2017-02-13T17:15:03Z phoe: aeth: bad code
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2017-02-13T17:16:31Z aeth: also: (defparameter *foo* 1) *foo* => 1 #\Newline (let ((*foo* 2)) *foo*) => 2 #\Newline *foo* => 1
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2017-02-13T17:22:33Z aeth: interestingly, though, I don't get a warning for: (let ((*foo* 2)) "hi")
2017-02-13T17:24:11Z ogamita: You would if *foo* wasn't declared special.
2017-02-13T17:25:23Z ogamita: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339069
2017-02-13T17:25:28Z aeth: Right, but let setting *foo* to 2 isn't doing anything there and immediately afterward *foo* is 1. I guess it's because SBCL doesn't know if it's like *print-case* or something
2017-02-13T17:26:05Z Bike: it would be more complicated to track dynamic variable uses, and also not as helpful
2017-02-13T17:26:20Z aeth: Right, but it should know that "hi" isn't calling functions that might access *foo*
2017-02-13T17:26:32Z aeth: But yeah, I guess it's so rare and complicated (most would be harder than "hi")
2017-02-13T17:26:34Z Bike: that's complicated though.
2017-02-13T17:26:49Z Bike: with lexical variables it just needs to go "ok, does it show up" and doesn't need to care about function calls or symbol-value or anything.
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2017-02-13T17:29:45Z jasom: Plus the compiler already needs to decide things like register allocation for lexical variables, which will also include liveness analysis, so you get non-usage information for free
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2017-02-13T17:30:58Z aeth: http://paste.lisp.org/+79MN
2017-02-13T17:31:29Z Bike: ok?
2017-02-13T17:31:40Z aeth: I thought it was interesting that if there's a *special* data structure that's implicit in a function, it can be overridden
2017-02-13T17:31:51Z aeth: It's both an obvious consequence and probably not something anyone thinks of
2017-02-13T17:31:56Z Bike: that's, like, the entire point of specials?
2017-02-13T17:32:30Z aeth: Well, a *foo* that's being modified by a function is probably being used as a global data structure.
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2017-02-13T17:33:43Z aeth: That's a different role than e.g. *print-case*, even though the same mechanisms that make *print-case* work will cause potentially unexpected behavior with *l*
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2017-02-13T17:33:49Z White_Flame: s/global/thread local/
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2017-02-13T17:34:43Z aeth: White_Flame: Something like *l* is usually being used as a global data structure. Threads are a good reason not to do this.
2017-02-13T17:35:48Z White_Flame: Whenever I have a special where I build up its contents through the course of deeply nested functionality, I tend to create a new LET binding for it right at the start, for capture.  It's nice and clean, threaded or not, it's encapsulated to that call chain
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2017-02-13T17:37:34Z aeth: I just put it as the first argument of each function, through deeply nested functionality, and make the state explicit.
2017-02-13T17:38:52Z aeth: I can have two foos at the same level of scope before calling the function twice in a row, as opposed to having two separate lets for two different *foo*s
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2017-02-13T17:45:59Z jasom: specials can be emulated with a combination globals and unwind-protect.  This makes sense, as the value cell of a symbol is quite like a global variable.
2017-02-13T17:48:46Z White_Flame: ...in a single threaded context
2017-02-13T17:49:06Z White_Flame: (seriously does nobody else write threaded lisp? ;) )
2017-02-13T17:49:12Z aeth: threads are hard
2017-02-13T17:50:00Z beach: So it seems, kattana_ was not very interested after all.
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2017-02-13T17:52:35Z phoe: beach: well, not a reason not to try.
2017-02-13T17:57:40Z White_Flame: aeth: threads are easy.  It's like saying "guns are difficult".  No they're not, just don't shoot yourself :-P
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2017-02-13T18:00:22Z Bike: this comparison works a lot better if you don't know someone who was killed by accidental discharge
2017-02-13T18:01:00Z White_Flame readily admits to that analogy being way over the top
2017-02-13T18:01:42Z White_Flame: but 99% of my debugging time is spent on non-threading issues, in heavily threaded codebases.  I just don't get the fear of threads
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2017-02-13T18:02:05Z Bike: it's because threading bugs are harder to understand, when they happen
2017-02-13T18:02:16Z Bike: i mean i don't usually get errors in my error reporting functions, but when i do it's a huge pain
2017-02-13T18:02:25Z Bike: so i think of those as worse
2017-02-13T18:03:33Z White_Flame: to me, most desriptions of others' threading bugs are like a Lisp programming hearing a C programmer talking about pointer bugs
2017-02-13T18:03:41Z White_Flame: *programmer
2017-02-13T18:03:46Z varjag: yeah they are kinda pain
2017-02-13T18:03:54Z Bike: harsh, mon
2017-02-13T18:04:14Z ogamita: White_Flame: it's different. Pointer bugs may be reproducible. Threading bugs not.
2017-02-13T18:04:21Z White_Flame: thread interactions should be very localized, then you don't hit 99% of the problems
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2017-02-13T18:05:02Z varjag: my bugs always hit that 1% case :p
2017-02-13T18:05:07Z White_Flame: ogamita: when you talk about wild pointers, off-by-1 errors, and after-free situations, those are just as unpredictable in effect as threading bugs
2017-02-13T18:05:24Z aeth: 90% of the problems with threading are *foo*s :p
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2017-02-13T18:06:02Z ogamita: White_Flame: true. But it's easier to control the memory than time.
2017-02-13T18:06:08Z pareidolia is reading the Lisp Interface Library paper
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2017-02-13T18:07:08Z White_Flame: inter-thread utils control the time.  Just ... don't go threading raw
2017-02-13T18:07:42Z White_Flame boots are firmly nailed into this soapbox ;)
2017-02-13T18:08:13Z varjag: right, use a framework..
2017-02-13T18:08:25Z varjag: the only thing worse than threading bugs are thread scheduling bugs
2017-02-13T18:08:44Z White_Flame: or like pretty much anything, create the specific abstractions that make your specific application straightforward to write
2017-02-13T18:09:34Z varjag: isn't this statement is tantamount to "rather write bug-free code"
2017-02-13T18:10:01Z White_Flame: not really, because too often people write code prematurely
2017-02-13T18:10:35Z White_Flame: I'm not an advocate of waterfall, but I'm certainly an advocate of sitting back and thinking about things and giving it some organizational concepts
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2017-02-13T18:11:16Z phoe: pareidolia: could you link it?
2017-02-13T18:13:03Z varjag: White_Flame: a lot of the "prematurely" part comes with a hindsight
2017-02-13T18:13:32Z varjag: most of the competent developers think they have a decent grip of problem domain when they start building
2017-02-13T18:13:32Z kattana_: phoe: malice` minion White_Flame thanks. will look into those.
2017-02-13T18:13:42Z varjag: still the bugs slip in
2017-02-13T18:14:26Z White_Flame: yep, you can't predict everything
2017-02-13T18:14:36Z White_Flame: hence you only should be application-specific, not totally general
2017-02-13T18:14:46Z White_Flame: and keep it light enough to allow complete refactoring
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2017-02-13T18:27:01Z jasom: White_Flame: I think the issue more is that people don't throw away code enough
2017-02-13T18:27:41Z jasom: White_Flame: given X hours, I can learn more about most problems by writing a prototype solution than I can by just thinking.
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2017-02-13T18:32:20Z learning: if i'm writing a function to scan the local hd for video files and return a list to be written to a file, am I better off writing and calling a bash function?
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2017-02-13T18:36:15Z Xach: learning: it depends on your overall goal, timeframe, etc
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2017-02-13T18:36:29Z Xach: learning: it is pretty fast to write a shell script to do that.
2017-02-13T18:36:36Z Xach: (if the criteria for "video file" is simple)
2017-02-13T18:36:44Z pareidolia: phoe: https://common-lisp.net/~frideau/lil-ilc2012/lil-ilc2012.html
2017-02-13T18:36:55Z learning: i could do something like this: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Walk_a_directory/Recursively#Common_Lisp  but wouldn't that be super slow on a 256gb hd compared to if i googled a bash function that does the same thing
2017-02-13T18:37:27Z learning: ye my criteria is just going to be a whitelist of file extensions
2017-02-13T18:37:31Z pareidolia: White_Flame: hammock driven dev
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2017-02-13T18:39:17Z pareidolia: learning: http://txt.binnyva.com/2009/05/find-files-of-a-specific-mime-type/
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2017-02-13T18:55:33Z paule32: hello
2017-02-13T18:55:48Z paule32: can i make elf executable with commonlisp ?
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2017-02-13T18:56:47Z fourier: paule32: yes
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2017-02-13T18:57:25Z paule32: fourier: please tell me, how
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2017-02-13T18:59:34Z fourier: paule32: it depends on CL compiler you are using. In general use trivial-build package http://quickdocs.org/trivial-build/ to do so
2017-02-13T19:01:48Z fourier: paule32: see also here: http://www.cliki.net/Creating%20Executables
2017-02-13T19:01:58Z learning: do i need to open a file to know its size?
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2017-02-13T19:02:45Z fourier: learning: no. you can run something like "ls -l" on a file and parse the output, but it will be slower :)
2017-02-13T19:03:51Z learning: what if i've got an existing list of files and just want to prune out the ones below a certain filesize
2017-02-13T19:04:11Z learning: 100-1000 elements long
2017-02-13T19:04:37Z learning: think itd be alright to open all of those just to check the filesize
2017-02-13T19:04:43Z learning: or am i better off calling bash
2017-02-13T19:04:52Z fourier: learning: you can implement something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/339079
2017-02-13T19:05:02Z jackdaniel: learning: to query file size you always open it, be it bash or something else
2017-02-13T19:05:12Z phoe: learning: sounds like overkill
2017-02-13T19:05:24Z phoe: I bet you can do it in bash and unix coreutils with a one-liner
2017-02-13T19:05:27Z phoe: if you have these, of course
2017-02-13T19:05:42Z phoe: jackdaniel: also, I don't think so
2017-02-13T19:05:53Z phoe: the filesystem holds information about how much a file weighs because it needs to
2017-02-13T19:05:54Z _death: on linux, you can use the stat function
2017-02-13T19:05:56Z jackdaniel: (defun file-size (path) (with-open-file (s path) (file-length s)))
2017-02-13T19:07:21Z Younder: Well fuck. Another reinstall of a Pi. Two hours wasted. Guess you get to suffer me.
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2017-02-13T19:07:46Z jackdaniel: hm, indeed, inode has separate file size field
2017-02-13T19:08:32Z Younder: One of the cool things lisp is the abillity to call functions with variable length. This is one of the things I miss the most in Haskell.
2017-02-13T19:09:26Z Younder: be it (multiple-value-call #'+ (floor 5 3) (floor 19 4)) ==  (+ 1 2 4 3)
2017-02-13T19:09:35Z Bike: just call stuff with a list?
2017-02-13T19:10:33Z Younder: or just alla optional are rest
2017-02-13T19:10:50Z Younder: and rest
2017-02-13T19:13:16Z Younder: Particularly windows functions seem to benefit. The seem to have 20 arguments of which 5 are mandatory and the rest have good defaults which you can then override as necessary.
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2017-02-13T19:15:00Z Younder: Well that's my 2 bits. What's up here?
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2017-02-13T19:19:39Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: Regarding the dot notation, I haven't used it, but djula uses it. https://github.com/AccelerationNet/access
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2017-02-13T19:33:14Z Younder: Well you will be glad to here that ECL works fine on a Jetson (- CUDA) and that cl-quaternion is working for the IMU (balance) sensor
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2017-02-13T19:35:54Z Younder: IMU Inertial management unit - 3 way accelerometer, 3 way magnetometer, 3 way accelerometer. (all quad-copters have one)
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2017-02-13T19:40:05Z paule32: i have a lisp source
2017-02-13T19:40:10Z paule32: i did:
2017-02-13T19:40:19Z paule32: (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :executable t)
2017-02-13T19:40:31Z paule32: my-start will be created as elf file
2017-02-13T19:40:55Z paule32: but when i try to start it, i end-up in clisp readline
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2017-02-13T19:41:34Z paule32: hi fourier
2017-02-13T19:41:40Z White_Flame: is there an option to give it a toplevel form to execute on startup?
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2017-02-13T19:41:59Z paule32: ehm, no
2017-02-13T19:42:06Z White_Flame: I would expect what you wrote to just return to the regular image
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2017-02-13T19:42:38Z White_Flame: :init-function?
2017-02-13T19:42:58Z paule32: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/image.html
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2017-02-13T19:51:03Z paule32: i get this messages in paste: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/557202/15428148/
2017-02-13T19:51:38Z paule32: after doing: (ext:saveinitmem "myy.mem" :quiet t :init-function 'main :executable t)
2017-02-13T19:52:59Z shka: paule32: could that be that you don't have function called main? :D
2017-02-13T19:54:07Z paule32: shka: no, i think counter part, in source i have:  (defun main() ... )
2017-02-13T19:54:23Z shka: that's cute
2017-02-13T19:54:29Z shka: sadly i don't see your code
2017-02-13T19:54:38Z shka: so how can i know that?
2017-02-13T19:57:18Z paule32: moment please
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2017-02-13T19:58:30Z paule32: http://[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl/
2017-02-13T19:58:32Z paule32: or
2017-02-13T19:58:40Z paule32: http://dbase.center/data/gl
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2017-02-13T20:02:43Z puchacz: hi, I have a postgres database dump with some lines that have broken utf-8 encodings. I would like to read a file line by line assuming it is utf-8, and do something special for the lines that are broken
2017-02-13T20:03:08Z puchacz: there are examples here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/files-and-file-io.html
2017-02-13T20:03:21Z puchacz: and I can use :external-format :utf-8
2017-02-13T20:03:29Z Younder: ARG! I HATE Kernel Panic!
2017-02-13T20:03:59Z puchacz: if I do so, it breaks as expected on line 50k something
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2017-02-13T20:04:49Z Younder: It disrupts everything. defeats debugging.
2017-02-13T20:04:57Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection)
2017-02-13T20:05:09Z puchacz: can I read line by line without specific encoding?
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2017-02-13T20:05:51Z Younder: A reinstall takes hours. And ten it's back again.
2017-02-13T20:05:56Z Younder: then
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2017-02-13T20:06:31Z Younder: I need a new approach.
2017-02-13T20:08:58Z Younder is new to kernel debugging (and not liking it)
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2017-02-13T20:09:31Z Younder: in quemu it worked fine..
2017-02-13T20:10:29Z Younder: Well serial (USB I suppose) gdb next (sigh)
2017-02-13T20:14:43Z Younder: It feels like riding a wild stallion which is constantly trying to throw you off.
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2017-02-13T20:16:35Z White_Flame: Wyld Stallyns? Excellent! *air guitar*
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2017-02-13T20:18:42Z shka: paule32: link does not work
2017-02-13T20:20:38Z paule32: both?
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2017-02-13T20:24:15Z dlowe: puchacz: you will need to read as (unsigned-byte 8) and then translate afterwards.
2017-02-13T20:24:33Z dlowe: flexi-streams is pretty good for this
2017-02-13T20:25:30Z jasom: puchacz: you can also use a bivalent stream and handle the decoding error (I believe flexi-streams has bivalent streams, so that's still a decent place to start).
2017-02-13T20:26:04Z dlowe: huh, didn't know sbcl had that.
2017-02-13T20:26:39Z shka: paule32: checked just one
2017-02-13T20:27:05Z shka: one without badly formatted ipv6 address
2017-02-13T20:27:24Z paule32: the 2 url's point to the same server
2017-02-13T20:27:46Z paule32: one for ipv4, the other with ipv6
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2017-02-13T20:28:24Z paule32: i though the ipv4 i dead
2017-02-13T20:28:32Z paule32: so ipv6 life
2017-02-13T20:28:43Z shka: well, does not work, i can't help
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2017-02-13T20:29:25Z paule32: you have no ipv6 broker?
2017-02-13T20:30:25Z paule32: so, you can tell me blindly, how to make exe runable from console
2017-02-13T20:30:40Z paule32: (without beshe
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2017-02-13T20:47:20Z yaroe: In the tutorial for LINJ https://github.com/xach/linj there is a mention to 'an experimental extensions to Linj under development that allows a kind of interactiveness similar to what you get on a normal Common Lisp IDE'
2017-02-13T20:47:36Z yaroe: Does one know where it can be found ?
2017-02-13T20:47:53Z jasom: paule32: (uiop:save-image "output-filename" :executable t :postlude '(main))
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2017-02-13T20:49:32Z puchacz: dlowe, jasom: thanks
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2017-02-13T21:01:09Z paule32: jasom: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/557297/70196431/
2017-02-13T21:04:02Z shka: paule32: http://quickdocs.org/uiop/api
2017-02-13T21:04:26Z shka: this package has no such function as save-image
2017-02-13T21:04:38Z shka: do you know what do you want to do here?
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2017-02-13T21:06:16Z shka: hey! sbcl has serve-event! :D
2017-02-13T21:06:25Z shka: that's kinda cool! :D
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2017-02-13T21:08:15Z paule32: i would like to to create executable
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2017-02-13T21:08:21Z paule32: ext:saveinitmem
2017-02-13T21:08:36Z shka: paule32: soooo where did you read on how to do it?
2017-02-13T21:09:03Z paule32: http://www.clisp.org/impnotes/image.html
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2017-02-13T21:09:52Z shka: well, but i see error from uiop
2017-02-13T21:10:06Z shka: i don't think that clisp would call uiop…
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2017-02-13T21:11:17Z shka: paule32: post function which calls saveinitmem
2017-02-13T21:12:05Z paule32: i start clisp, (load "start.lisp")
2017-02-13T21:12:27Z paule32: in start.lisp there is (defun main() ... )
2017-02-13T21:12:58Z paule32: and i did (after load start.lisp): (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :init-function '(main) :executable t)
2017-02-13T21:13:19Z paule32: and get this   :  *** - DOCUMENTATION: (MAIN) is not a function name; try using a symbol instead
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2017-02-13T21:15:53Z edgar-rft: paule 32: try (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :init-function 'main :executable t)
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2017-02-13T21:16:23Z edgar-rft: paule32: without the parens around main ^^
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2017-02-13T21:24:05Z paule32: edgar-rft: thx, but: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/557337/21027148/
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2017-02-13T21:28:05Z pareidolia: paule32: Define your main first
2017-02-13T21:29:10Z pareidolia: paule32: Not sure, maybe ext:saveinitmem requires (function main)
2017-02-13T21:30:23Z edgar-rft: main should be in the dumped image if the file was loaded before dumping (as described above by paule32) but it may happen that CLISP is still in the CL package or somewhere else when the main function is called, so my next attempt would be:
2017-02-13T21:30:37Z edgar-rft: (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :init-function 'cl-user::main :executable t)
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2017-02-13T21:33:26Z paule32: pareidolia: Break 11 [5]> (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :init-function (function main) :executable t)
2017-02-13T21:33:26Z paule32: *** - FUNCTION: undefined function MAIN
2017-02-13T21:33:43Z paule32: edgar-rft: Break 10 [4]> (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :init-function 'cl-user::main :executable t)
2017-02-13T21:33:43Z paule32: *** - runtime too small (2470016 bytes missing)
2017-02-13T21:34:20Z shka: is there any smart way to declaim stuff for everything inside package?
2017-02-13T21:35:37Z pareidolia: paule32: Out of disk space?
2017-02-13T21:35:47Z edgar-rft: paule32: can you paste the contents of your start.lisp file somwhere so that I can try myself here?
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2017-02-13T21:38:32Z paule32: edgar-rft: you can first try this: http://dbase.center/data/gl/
2017-02-13T21:38:33Z paule32: or:
2017-02-13T21:38:58Z paule32: http://[2a00:c1a0:8502:e300:12c9:2201:1:1]/data/gl/
2017-02-13T21:39:30Z paule32: in start.lisp
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2017-02-13T21:40:40Z jurov: hi all, (usocket:socket-server #(127 0 0 1) port #'rpclisten :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) says "odd number of arguments in keywords section" and i have nfi why???
2017-02-13T21:41:19Z pareidolia: Add colon to get :port ?
2017-02-13T21:41:50Z pareidolia: Scratch that
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2017-02-13T21:42:49Z jurov: it works when i remove :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)
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2017-02-13T21:44:24Z kattana_: what I meant that programming languages have to do pretty much the same, i/o data, transform this data, re-arrange it etc. So I meant to ask about a book that gives a general overview about the relationship of CPU intructions and languages in general.
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2017-02-13T21:44:37Z sjl: the problem is that usocket:socket-server uses a dumb lambda list
2017-02-13T21:44:41Z sjl: (assuming these docs are right)
2017-02-13T21:44:44Z sjl: socket-server host port function &optional arguments &key ...
2017-02-13T21:44:56Z sjl: the optional arg is eating one of your keyword args
2017-02-13T21:45:09Z jurov: yes, the &optional part likely causes a mess.. how to overcome it?
2017-02-13T21:45:22Z sjl: pass nil as that optional arg
2017-02-13T21:45:32Z kattana_: because let's say to learn about lisp in total and complete isolation perhaps isn't a good idea.
2017-02-13T21:45:38Z sjl: (usocket:socket-server #(127 0 0 1) port #'rpclisten NIL :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8))
2017-02-13T21:46:01Z phoe: kattana_: d'oh
2017-02-13T21:46:08Z phoe: you won't be learning a programming language without programming
2017-02-13T21:46:11Z jurov: sjl yes that's it, thanks
2017-02-13T21:46:34Z phoe: I bet that you're not learning Lisp to write Lisp for writing Lisp, you're learning Lisp to program in it
2017-02-13T21:46:41Z sjl: D.A.R.E. to Resist Mixing &optional and &keyword args
2017-02-13T21:46:56Z phoe: so you won't be learning Lisp in total and complete isolation
2017-02-13T21:46:59Z phoe: that's a baseless fear.
2017-02-13T21:47:04Z edgar-rft: paule32: ah, the MAIN function is in package START, not in package CL-USER
2017-02-13T21:47:04Z edgar-rft: (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet :init-function 'start::main :executable t)
2017-02-13T21:47:04Z edgar-rft: the overall setup in that file is too complex to test it here on-the-fly but hopefully it works now...
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2017-02-13T21:47:50Z phoe: kattana_: also, CPU instructions and things like i/o, transforming and rearranging data - these are two different layers of abstraction.
2017-02-13T21:48:05Z phoe: a single I/O function can take hundreds+ of CPU instructions.
2017-02-13T21:48:41Z White_Flame: and a single math operator in a high level programming language can take hundres+ of CPU instructions, as to your earlier point
2017-02-13T21:49:01Z phoe: all of this in different configurations because of different compilers, different optimization settings and so on
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2017-02-13T21:49:11Z phoe: so there is no direct mapping that these instructions do this, these do that.
2017-02-13T21:49:19Z White_Flame: programming languages start more as clean-slate ideas, knowing that they'll eventually have to command a CPU via assembly code
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2017-02-13T21:50:06Z White_Flame: so learn Common Lisp, learn some x86 (presumably), and use DISASSEMBLE to see the correlations for your particular platform
2017-02-13T21:51:46Z paule32: edgar-rft: Break 4 [6]> (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet :init-function 'start::main :executable t)
2017-02-13T21:51:46Z paule32: *** - SAVEINITMEM: keyword arguments in (:QUIET :INIT-FUNCTION START::MAIN :EXECUTABLE T) should occur pairwise
2017-02-13T21:52:01Z kattana_: mm... there's no book with an overview of such correletaion with languages in general?
2017-02-13T21:52:29Z phoe: kattana_: there's no such correlation in general.
2017-02-13T21:52:47Z White_Flame: there's just a bunch of langauges, each with their own take.  Some glean from other in various aspects, others don't
2017-02-13T21:52:47Z phoe: a single function can be compiled into tens, if not hundreds, of assembly variants, all doing the same thing.
2017-02-13T21:53:01Z phoe: I think you're approaching the issue from a wrong side.
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2017-02-13T21:53:28Z edgar-rft: paule32: (ext:saveinitmem "my-start" :quiet t :init-function 'start::main :executable t)
2017-02-13T21:53:30Z kattana_: a book that talks in general what ALL programs need to solve. That's it.
2017-02-13T21:53:49Z edgar-rft: paule32: the t after :quiet was missing (my fault)
2017-02-13T21:53:49Z phoe: "what ALL programs need to solve"?
2017-02-13T21:53:52Z White_Flame: "programs" don't share anything
2017-02-13T21:53:56Z phoe: I don't get it.
2017-02-13T21:54:23Z White_Flame: "programming languages" tend to share the need to parse textual source code into internal representations, and compile them into machine code.  But then there's interpreters, and JITs, and all sorts of other techniques
2017-02-13T21:54:34Z kattana_: are you kidding me now? You can make a game in java, in python, in lisp, etc. Those processes are shared among all languages.
2017-02-13T21:54:44Z phoe: kattana_: then you're looking for a book on gamemaking.
2017-02-13T21:54:47Z phoe: there are these.
2017-02-13T21:54:54Z kattana_: White_Flame: ah yeah! something like that!
2017-02-13T21:55:10Z White_Flame: then get any book on compilers.  They won't get into programming language design, though
2017-02-13T21:55:12Z phoe: oh wait, so you're looking for a book about parsing, lexing, compilation.
2017-02-13T21:55:19Z phoe: yes, there are these too.
2017-02-13T21:55:24Z kattana_: phoe: that was an example only.
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2017-02-13T21:55:25Z White_Flame: and won't be some broad treatise on commonalities and related needs of languages
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2017-02-13T21:55:57Z phoe: kattana_: I think you're too broad on your search. I think I now grasp what you mean, but the topic might be too vast for any book to be even able to grasp the basics.
2017-02-13T21:56:42Z phoe: But then again - it's just a wild guess from my side backed with a little bit of my experience. It might be too little.
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2017-02-13T21:57:21Z kattana_: allright thanks
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2017-02-13T22:00:58Z paule32: https://paste.fedoraproject.org/557373/14870232/
2017-02-13T22:04:45Z edgar-rft: kattana_: *all* high-level languages are designed to be as *little* as possible depending on any CPU machine instructions. What are you specially interested in?
2017-02-13T22:07:03Z edgar-rft: paule32: no idea
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2017-02-13T22:12:02Z kattana_: edgar-rft: I want to learn programming in lisp, so earlier I asked about available material out there. But in addition asked if a book exist that explains the general propblems that languages need to solve and what are the different approaches.
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2017-02-13T22:12:56Z phoe: kattana_: I think that the word you might be looking for is paradigms.
2017-02-13T22:14:01Z pareidolia: Today's your lucky day: CL is multi-paradigm
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2017-02-13T22:22:32Z quadresce: yes but isn't lisp slow and interpreted?
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2017-02-13T22:23:13Z phoe: quadresce: no, it's compiled and tends to be fast
2017-02-13T22:23:46Z quadresce: yes but isn't lisp just good for recursion?
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2017-02-13T22:24:02Z phoe: quadresce: no, it's good for a lot of things
2017-02-13T22:24:03Z pareidolia: lol
2017-02-13T22:24:08Z quadresce: ;-)
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2017-02-13T22:24:19Z phoe: ;D
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2017-02-13T22:25:03Z pareidolia: I cringe at professors who make offhand mentions in presentations, where Lisp is spelled LISP
2017-02-13T22:25:29Z pareidolia: That's a noob detector to me
2017-02-13T22:25:33Z edgar-rft: kattana: in the beginning, there was Fortran (math and number-oriented), Lisp (initially designed to process to results of Fortan code in lists) and Algol, where nearly all infix programming languages are derived from. If you're interseted in the general basics, I would start with some internet documents like "Fortran vs Lisp vs Algol" or similar.
2017-02-13T22:26:14Z pareidolia: I have an original print Algol 60 specification
2017-02-13T22:26:18Z kattana_: edgar-rft: amazing!! really fascinating. Go on.
2017-02-13T22:26:34Z kattana_: edgar-rft: such a book, does it exist?
2017-02-13T22:29:11Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-02-13T22:30:01Z edgar-rft: kattana_: there are billions of different opinions about the pros and cons (that's why today there are so many programming languages), I don't think thatthere is *one* single book that describes all aspects best. In the end it boils down to what is the "best" programming language is defined by the *problem* you want to solve, not so much the language itself.
2017-02-13T22:30:16Z pareidolia: kattana_: This would definitely be your thing https://www.computer.org/annals/
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2017-02-13T22:40:27Z shka: kattana_: if you are interested in this subject, perhaps you want to take a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concepts,_Techniques,_and_Models_of_Computer_Programming
2017-02-13T22:40:35Z shka: this book is interesting
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2017-02-13T22:46:57Z kattana_: shka: wow, the official website got a thorogh info no the subject
2017-02-13T22:46:58Z kattana_: thanks
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2017-02-13T22:48:27Z shka: well, at the very least this lecture gives good understanding why even bother
2017-02-13T22:48:55Z shka: good night
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2017-02-13T22:50:55Z kattana_: shka: * thourough info on the subject
2017-02-13T22:51:20Z shka: right
2017-02-13T22:51:29Z shka: anyway
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2017-02-13T22:52:32Z shka: if you are really interested in modern programming language concepts, this is perhaps best book i know
2017-02-13T22:53:08Z shka: it essentially explains what PL can bring to the table in term of abstraction
2017-02-13T22:53:58Z shka: and abstraction is good because it reeeeeeally helps to reduce complexity
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2017-02-13T22:54:24Z pareidolia: a.k.a. anyone can build a Turing tarpit
2017-02-13T22:54:26Z shka: the other way to reduce complexity is to reduce functionality, but it may not be ideal solution
2017-02-13T22:54:45Z shka: pareidolia: yes
2017-02-13T22:55:00Z shka: you can even do that unintentionally
2017-02-13T22:55:06Z shka: see C++ templates
2017-02-13T22:55:06Z pareidolia hears Hal Abelson in his head: "abstraction, combination, abstraction, combination..."
2017-02-13T22:56:14Z shka: honestly, I came to think that programming is essentially art
2017-02-13T22:56:26Z shka: like literature
2017-02-13T22:56:36Z shka: ok, seriously guys
2017-02-13T22:56:37Z shka: night!
2017-02-13T22:56:38Z quadresce: it can be like art
2017-02-13T22:56:50Z shka: quadresce: but should it?
2017-02-13T22:56:53Z aeth: As far as the "best" programming language goes, it's really imo down to: (1) is the language itself specially designed to solve your problem? (2) is there a library only available on the language that makes the problem trivial? (3) do you need performance that you can only get from the language in question? where (1) is something like awk, (2) is something like Python, and (3) is something like C or C++ (although niche languages in #1 are o
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2017-02-13T22:58:46Z aeth: (although niche languages in #1 are often extremely fast for their very specialized task)
2017-02-13T22:58:47Z quadresce: shka, yes sometimes
2017-02-13T22:58:47Z White_Flame: shka: I prefer the term "craft", like woodworking
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2017-02-13T22:59:17Z quadresce: it's a little more technical and less rote than a craft, if done right, I think (:
2017-02-13T22:59:40Z quadresce: but crafts, just like people, come in many shapes and sizes
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2017-02-13T23:01:40Z aeth: Programming is basically a mix between creative writing and mathematics imo.
2017-02-13T23:01:42Z edgar-rft imagines some quadratic, circular, and triangular people
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2017-02-13T23:05:18Z aeth: A lot of programming is essentially substituting A for B where B is equivalent to A but runs faster, or doesn't create garbage, or is clearer to the reader, etc. And that's similar to e.g. replacing (x^2 + x) with x*(x+1) in algebra
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2017-02-13T23:05:50Z White_Flame: programming has a ton to do with building infrastructure.  You can do that in any number of nearly arbitrarily interchangeable ways, but each way locks you into certain assumptions
2017-02-13T23:06:12Z White_Flame: but the nice thing is above other crafts is that you can change the fundamentals and keep moving forward
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2017-02-13T23:06:44Z White_Flame: I think it's close to math on at the micro basic execution block level
2017-02-13T23:07:56Z quadresce: some would claim it's math on the macro level, you just don't know it!
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2017-02-13T23:08:12Z White_Flame: heh
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2017-02-13T23:08:43Z White_Flame: math as in aeth's description is algorithmic, evaluating functions and such
2017-02-13T23:09:01Z aeth: Well, you could compare programs to proofs. Obviously, they're not identical (and in fact, you can prove some programs), but they have similarities.
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2017-02-13T23:09:14Z White_Flame: while the "higher" forms of math really are more about modeling, which is a term I use against computer "science", in that it doesn't perform science but builds & analyzes models
2017-02-13T23:09:37Z quadresce: don't our SICP lords say computer science isn't about computers or science
2017-02-13T23:09:48Z White_Flame: of course
2017-02-13T23:10:04Z White_Flame: I tend to morph it into "the 'science' of computing"
2017-02-13T23:10:07Z aeth: in some languages it's basically "datology"
2017-02-13T23:10:09Z Bike: as if computer science has anything to do with programming
2017-02-13T23:10:16Z White_Flame: right
2017-02-13T23:10:17Z aeth: e.g. Danish. https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datalogi
2017-02-13T23:10:31Z aeth: datalogy?
2017-02-13T23:10:38Z Bike: i don't use any programming languages that aren't church-rosser,
2017-02-13T23:11:00Z aeth: and in French it's "informatique". https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatique
2017-02-13T23:11:04Z White_Flame: From a cirriculum perspective:  computer science = modeling/analyzing how computing works.  compuer engineering = building hardware.  software development = project management.  No where does programming lie.  It tends to be apprenticeship, experimentation, and tribal knowledge
2017-02-13T23:11:30Z White_Flame: erm, "software engineering" (not development) as most cirricula call it
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2017-02-13T23:12:32Z quadresce: White_Flame, that's what I like about SICP though, is that I think it actually *does* talk about programming. Not programming in the large, but the fundamental ideas about programming.
2017-02-13T23:12:50Z White_Flame: yes, though I've not gone through the whole thing, just the first maybe 1/8th
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2017-02-13T23:16:36Z aeth: White_Flame: so what you're saying is that no one knows what they're doing when they program? ;)
2017-02-13T23:16:58Z White_Flame: I'm saying that programming isn't being taught by universities
2017-02-13T23:17:06Z White_Flame: it's certainly an environment that you can learn to program in, though
2017-02-13T23:17:19Z aeth: nah, it's often taught under computer science, and when it is, it's usually Java
2017-02-13T23:17:56Z White_Flame: and the question "then what is programming" is eventaully reached
2017-02-13T23:18:15Z White_Flame: because the teaching of what the syntax & provisions of a programmign language certainly are taught ;)
2017-02-13T23:18:22Z White_Flame: but it 100% depends on the professor
2017-02-13T23:19:46Z aeth: Programming is trying to trick the compiler into producing efficient code while still keeping the code readable/maintainable.
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2017-02-13T23:20:03Z White_Flame: programming starts even before efficiency comes into play
2017-02-13T23:20:51Z sukaeto: I don't think it's a fair statement to say "programming isn't taught by universities", considering nearly every first year computer science course is "how to program"
2017-02-13T23:20:58Z White_Flame: conversion of desires of the computer's behavior into computer instructions, filtered through a programming language, and the desires being tempered by understanding of what is currently possible, or ideas of how to broaden it
2017-02-13T23:20:59Z sukaeto: er, let me back up
2017-02-13T23:21:16Z sukaeto: I can't speak for every university out there, but at least all the ones I'm familiar with/have been affiliated with
2017-02-13T23:21:24Z quadresce: sukaeto, I think White_Flame means "to program" in a very particular way, inequivalent to "to write a program"
2017-02-13T23:21:33Z sukaeto: (admittedly a small finite number :-) )
2017-02-13T23:22:05Z aeth: White_Flame: I disagree. You want code that can run fast, and you want algorithms that aren't O(n^n^n^n^n) or whatever horribly inefficient is in big-O
2017-02-13T23:22:31Z White_Flame: aeth: think about learning to program, getting basic behavior loops working.  Efficiency really isn't a facto
2017-02-13T23:22:32Z White_Flame: r
2017-02-13T23:23:10Z White_Flame: certainly, massive explosive oopsies in either memory or time will halt your progress, but "make it fast" isn't necessarily relevant to begin programming
2017-02-13T23:23:28Z aeth: White_Flame: no, I mean "fast enough", not "fast"
2017-02-13T23:23:53Z sukaeto: quadresce: sure, I suppose you could come up with your own definition of programming such that it's not taught in a university
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2017-02-13T23:23:58Z White_Flame: very few problems, especially in one-man-projects, get into those scales
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2017-02-13T23:24:26Z aeth: You don't want to write something perfectly fast that you can't read, that probably has hidden bugs, and that you can't update without rewriting the whole thing... so you want fast enough abstractions.
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2017-02-13T23:25:00Z White_Flame: in distilling down "what is programming", you have to think of the simplest case of 1 person writing a small program
2017-02-13T23:25:15Z White_Flame: everything else is part of programming broadly, but not as fundamental
2017-02-13T23:26:16Z White_Flame: sukaeto: yes, programming is taught, but none of the 3 titles "computer science", "computer engineering", or "software engineering" are actually about programming, was my observation
2017-02-13T23:26:42Z aeth: White_Flame: to phrase it differently, programming is writing or using abstractions that are (1) debuggable, (2) changable, (3) fast enough, (4) readable (not necessarily in that order)
2017-02-13T23:26:45Z White_Flame: you can't really find a degree in "programming", which is curious
2017-02-13T23:26:53Z White_Flame: (in most major universities)
2017-02-13T23:26:59Z aeth: And I suppose there can be a #5 "quick enough to write"
2017-02-13T23:27:34Z White_Flame: Somebody can program without any of those 4.  They wouldn't be programming "well", but they'd still be programming
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2017-02-13T23:28:13Z White_Flame: (behold!  my navel, as I gaze upon it)
2017-02-13T23:28:16Z White_Flame: anyway
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2017-02-13T23:28:49Z aeth: White_Flame: If you don't have any of those, how do you even know that the computer is doing what you told it to do?
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2017-02-13T23:29:05Z aeth: In which case it's more of a phenomenon to study than a program
2017-02-13T23:29:11Z White_Flame: input/output correlation in the result
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2017-02-13T23:29:26Z White_Flame: a correlation that you created from scratch
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2017-02-13T23:29:41Z White_Flame: (well, given the computing substrate of the language & environment etc)
2017-02-13T23:29:55Z aeth: A proper program can be studied without empirical analysis... just read it and deduce what should happen.
2017-02-13T23:30:24Z White_Flame: sure, but I was simply talking about the distillation of programming.  Write-only code is still programming
2017-02-13T23:30:54Z aeth: Not under my definition.
2017-02-13T23:30:58Z sukaeto: White_Flame: yes, you're right that none of those are programming.  But for two (or maybe all of them - I don't really know anything about computer engineering) of them, programming is a prerequisite skill
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2017-02-13T23:33:40Z aeth: White_Flame: if you're not using any abstractions, you're just coding in machine code or something
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2017-02-13T23:33:52Z aeth: you might be using *poor* abstractions, of course
2017-02-13T23:35:03Z sukaeto: I think a four year degree in programming makes about as much sense as a four year degree in welding
2017-02-13T23:35:29Z sukaeto: both of them are useful skills, for sure.  Both of them need to be studied/learned.
2017-02-13T23:35:36Z aeth: sukaeto: welding is much easier to pick up
2017-02-13T23:35:46Z sukaeto: but they're more along the lines of what you'd go to a trade school for
2017-02-13T23:36:03Z aeth: Afaik, the vast majority of professional programmers can't even program, let alone program well.
2017-02-13T23:36:05Z sukaeto: aeth: maybe
2017-02-13T23:36:14Z sukaeto: ;-)
2017-02-13T23:36:16Z White_Flame: I actually agree with you there, especially for language/platform oriented training
2017-02-13T23:36:25Z White_Flame: (re trade school)
2017-02-13T23:36:31Z aeth: e.g. If literally all someone does is copy and paste from Google or StackOverflow without understand what they're copying/pasting, are they programming?
2017-02-13T23:36:45Z pjb: fizzbuzz can't be programmed by 15% of professional programmers, IIRC.
2017-02-13T23:36:57Z aeth: oh, only 15%
2017-02-13T23:37:00Z aeth: I thought it was higher
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2017-02-13T23:37:34Z pjb: Well, then there are bugs lurking in libraries, like the broken dichotomy in Java, etc.
2017-02-13T23:37:46Z aeth: Although at this point, I'm sure there are some people who only know how to program FizzBuzz...
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2017-02-13T23:38:55Z pjb: For example, how do you compute the middle point between int min and int max in C?
2017-02-13T23:39:04Z pjb: aeth: :-)
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2017-02-13T23:43:38Z aeth: pjb: you foreign call this from C: (cffi:convert-to-foreign (values (round (alexandria:median (list 1 3)))) :int)
2017-02-13T23:43:59Z pjb: Yep.
2017-02-13T23:44:21Z aeth: s/1 3/min max/
2017-02-13T23:44:33Z pjb: https://gist.github.com/adamvduke/3505558
2017-02-13T23:47:01Z aeth: I'm amazed that that was (1) patented, (2) patented as late as 1996
2017-02-13T23:47:31Z aeth: I hope that no one has patented using ECL to avoid overflows
2017-02-13T23:47:38Z White_Flame: aeth: isn't writing in machine code still programming though? ;)  (from above)
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2017-02-13T23:49:48Z pjb: And computing the average of floating point numbers is even more complicated. (you have to deal with overflows, underflow, but also if you're averaging multiple numbers you have to take into account the relative magnitude of the numbers to avoid rounding errors.
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2017-02-13T23:50:48Z pjb: (/ (+ 1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 -1e30) 4) #| --> 0.0 |#  is wrong.    (/ (+ 1e30 -1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 ) 4) #| --> 2.775E-11 |#  seems better.
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2017-02-13T23:52:18Z aeth: White_Flame: if you don't do it with any abstractions, I'd argue, no
2017-02-13T23:52:35Z pjb: (/ (+ 1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 -1e30) 5) #| --> 0.0 |#  is wrong.    (/ (+ 1e30 -1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 ) 5) #| --> 2.22E-11 |#  is better but still wrong.  the correct result is 3.7E-11.
2017-02-13T23:53:23Z aeth: pjb: Well that's just because very big numbers and very small numbers are the weakness of floating point
2017-02-13T23:53:36Z pjb: err, I'm tired, 2.22E-11 is the correct result.
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2017-02-13T23:54:41Z pjb: Yes. But my point here is that if you interview a programmer that you want to reject, you can just ask him to implement a dichotomy (he will fail on mid=(min+max)/2), or the average of a vector of float (he will fail forgetting to sort correctly the array).
2017-02-13T23:56:09Z |3b|: or keep a running total of error, or have multiple accumulators
2017-02-13T23:57:24Z pjb: Unless he's a lisper of course: (let ((floats '(1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 -1e30))) (coerce  (/ (reduce '+ floats :key 'rationalize) (length floats)) `(or ,@(mapcar 'type-of floats)))) #| --> 2.22E-11 |#
2017-02-13T23:57:26Z aeth: (alexandria:median (list 1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 -1e30)) => 1.e-11
2017-02-13T23:57:41Z aeth: I think my code is what a Lisper is more likely to do
2017-02-13T23:57:59Z pjb: alexandria is wrong. There's a reason I don't use it by default…
2017-02-13T23:58:20Z |3b| would expect mean rather than median for 'average'
2017-02-13T23:58:28Z pjb: They forgot :key 'abs in the sort…
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2017-02-13T23:58:53Z pjb: (alexandria:mean (list 1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 -1e30)) #| --> 0.0 |#
2017-02-13T23:58:53Z aeth: |3b|: bah
2017-02-13T23:58:55Z aeth: my bad
2017-02-13T23:59:04Z aeth: it's worse though!
2017-02-13T23:59:20Z pjb: Well, for mean the don't sort at all.
2017-02-13T23:59:31Z aeth: I translated "average" in my head to "mean"
2017-02-13T23:59:39Z aeth: s/"mean"/"median"
2017-02-13T23:59:42Z aeth: Ignoring the context
2017-02-14T00:00:02Z |3b|: yeah, probably a more useful 'average', but not the usual interpretation
2017-02-14T00:00:07Z aeth: pjb: (coerce (alexandria:mean (mapcar #'rationalize (list 1e30 1e-10 1e-11 1e-12 -1e30))) 'single-float) => 2.22e-11
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2017-02-14T00:00:20Z aeth: |3b|: right, I spaced out and used my typical translation of 'average' rather than the context-specific one
2017-02-14T00:00:30Z pjb: aeth: notice I didn't use a hard coded float type for the coerce!
2017-02-14T00:00:58Z aeth: hard-coded float types are better because then the compiler knows what to do
2017-02-14T00:00:59Z aeth: imo
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2017-02-14T00:01:11Z aeth: Otherwise (optimize 3) is going to be shouting at me
2017-02-14T00:01:26Z aeth: *(optimize (speed 3))
2017-02-14T00:01:27Z pjb: aeth: perhaps you want to go #haskell?
2017-02-14T00:01:42Z |3b|: if you are doing sums of rationalized floats, i don't think (speed 3) really matters :p
2017-02-14T00:02:16Z |3b|: even less so if the only part you are optimizing is the final conversion to a float
2017-02-14T00:04:36Z pjb: On the other hand, (type-of (coerce 1 '(or short-float single-float double-float long-float))) fail on most implementations and coerces to single-float on ccl and sbcl, so you will have to do it yourself.
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2017-02-14T00:06:03Z aeth: pjb: I'm guessing it coerces to short-float, which is equivalent to single-float, because it comes first
2017-02-14T00:06:13Z pjb: yes.
2017-02-14T00:06:21Z aeth: hmm, nope, it's not about order
2017-02-14T00:06:34Z aeth: (coerce 1 '(or double-float single-float)) => 1.0, not 1.0d0, in SBCL
2017-02-14T00:06:39Z pjb: We'd have to define a (supertype-of  short-float single-float double-float long-float) type :-)
2017-02-14T00:07:01Z aeth: pjb: 'float?
2017-02-14T00:07:24Z aeth: (typep 1f0 'float) => T #\Newline (typep 1d0 'float) => T
2017-02-14T00:08:05Z Bike: i don't think anything about sbcl types is order dependent, which is good because that would be silly
2017-02-14T00:08:09Z pjb: (coerce 2/3 'float) #| --> 0.6666667 |#  perhaps we wanted long-float?
2017-02-14T00:08:20Z pjb: Yes, supertype is not what we want here.
2017-02-14T00:08:27Z aeth: (coerce 1 'float) => 1f0 #\Newline (coerce 1d0 'float) => 1d0
2017-02-14T00:08:40Z aeth: I think it's equivalent to (float 1)
2017-02-14T00:08:51Z Bike: coerce actually doesn't have to do subtype checks except for sequences. nice
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2017-02-14T00:09:28Z aeth: you can do (float 1 1d0) though to make it double float
2017-02-14T00:09:47Z aeth: so I guess #'float is more useful for when you want the type on the left to match the type on the right as a float and you don't really care which float
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2017-02-14T00:11:30Z pjb: yes, so we could do: (let ((floats '(1e30 1l-10 1s-11 1d-12 -1e30))) (float  (/ (reduce '+ floats :key 'rationalize) (length floats)) (reduce '+ floats)))  #| --> 2.2200000078740003D-11 |#
2017-02-14T00:12:11Z aeth: I guess I finally found the use for the second argument of #'float
2017-02-14T00:12:13Z pjb: But again, we could shortcut computing the type as soon as we get a long-float.
2017-02-14T00:14:13Z aeth: long-float = quadruple precision float, large fixnums, proper 64-bit integer support, unboxed doubles... I can't wait until 128-bit CPUs
2017-02-14T00:14:35Z aeth: It's not just about memory, where obviously 64-bit is enough
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2017-02-14T00:22:33Z quadresce: I still want arbitrary precision floats in the tower!
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2017-02-14T00:23:17Z |3b| wants half-floats :p
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2017-02-14T00:23:55Z |3b|: (smaller than the suggested min size of short-floats in the spec by a few bits)
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2017-02-14T00:26:08Z aeth: |3b|: I agree, and that's one of the areas where the spec actually needs an update.
2017-02-14T00:27:13Z |3b|: not as much use for an immediate-on-32bit float type these days
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2017-02-14T00:28:21Z |3b|: (and apparently not much use in the relatively recent past either since i don't think anyone but clisp implemented it of the still common implementations)
2017-02-14T00:29:54Z aeth: imo it should go like this: short-float = IEEE half-float, single-float = IEEE single-float, double-float = IEEE double-float, long-float = 80-bit extended precision or IEEE quadruple-float... even this isn't enough if you want to clearly distinguish between 80-bit and 128-bit long-floats
2017-02-14T00:30:35Z aeth: Of course, if not implemented short-float would still be single-float, long-float would still be double-float, etc., like normal. So perhaps there needs to be a way to tell (if there isn't already) if it's implemented.
2017-02-14T00:31:15Z aeth: (perhaps long-float = 80-bit and a new quadruple-float = 128-bit)
2017-02-14T00:31:53Z aeth: That would cover pretty much all the useful parts of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Floating-point
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2017-02-14T00:32:24Z aeth: octuple-float isn't coming for a long time
2017-02-14T00:32:36Z |3b|: clisp's long-float is nice
2017-02-14T00:32:45Z |3b|: can set it to whatever precision you like :)
2017-02-14T00:33:10Z aeth: quadresce, |3b|: That would be arbitrary-float
2017-02-14T00:33:49Z quadresce: Designing a good API around arbitrary precision floats is difficult.
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2017-02-14T00:36:17Z quadresce: Why hasn't someone made a library to display a progress bar in the terminal? (:
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2017-02-14T00:37:44Z pjb: |3b|: unfortunately, such extensions break other parts of the specification. For example #+clisp cl:pi now have different values at different times, depending on the current precision of long-floats…  so cl:pi is not a constant anymore.
2017-02-14T00:38:15Z aeth: clisp shouldn't be used for anything numerical
2017-02-14T00:38:38Z pjb: On the contrary, if you need big precision long-float, use clisp. And it's fast even.
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2017-02-14T00:39:54Z quadresce: aeth, Bruno knows a lot about high precision fast math
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2017-02-14T00:40:55Z aeth: (mapcar #'upgraded-array-element-type '(short-float single-float double-float long-float float)) => (T T T T T) on clisp (SINGLE-FLOAT SINGLE-FLOAT DOUBLE-FLOAT DOUBLE-FLOAT T) on sbcl (SINGLE-FLOAT SINGLE-FLOAT DOUBLE-FLOAT T T) on ecl
2017-02-14T00:41:27Z aeth: so if you're writing portable numerical code that works on single-float or double-float, you're going to be making T arrays in clisp
2017-02-14T00:41:35Z quadresce: Of course CLISP shouldn't be used as a competitor to Fortran :)
2017-02-14T00:41:48Z aeth: ccl matches sbcl's result
2017-02-14T00:43:40Z |3b|: clisp also doesn't support NaN and INF, or compile things... their long-floats are still useful :)
2017-02-14T00:44:33Z aeth: quadresce: Is there any reason why CL in general can't be a competitor to Fortran other than lack of compiler attention in a particular implementation?
2017-02-14T00:45:02Z quadresce: I think a LOT of work needs to be done that makes floats and float arrays fast without a bunch of crazy wizardry
2017-02-14T00:45:17Z quadresce: inlining every single function all the time is very impractical, and so is boxing floats across every function boundary
2017-02-14T00:45:47Z aeth: Only double-floats have to be boxed, right?
2017-02-14T00:45:56Z quadresce: on 64-bit on SBCL and stuff yes
2017-02-14T00:45:58Z pjb: aeth: there is not.  In particular, a CL compiler could perform global analysis of the source code to be able to determine all the types precisely at compilation time (if the program allows it).
2017-02-14T00:46:21Z quadresce: I would love MLton for Common Lisp
2017-02-14T00:46:31Z pjb: aeth: on the other hand, this requires basically a global analyser; it's more complicated or impossible to do locally on a single function or even on a compilation-unit.
2017-02-14T00:46:35Z quadresce: or even STALIN for Common Lisp
2017-02-14T00:46:48Z pjb: (if only just because of HANDLE-ERROR).
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2017-02-14T00:48:29Z Zhivago: CL already supports specialized arrays.
2017-02-14T00:49:14Z Zhivago: Unfortunately that's support at the implementation level -- so you need an implementation with efficient specialized arrays for your use-case.
2017-02-14T00:49:49Z pjb: Let's compare comparable, compare f2cl and cl.
2017-02-14T00:50:31Z aeth: Zhivago: The main thing I personally think that CL lacks is upgraded arrays for structs and/or upgraded arrays. Although maybe for the latter it's not as big of a deal.
2017-02-14T00:50:58Z Zhivago: Well, it can have those is the implementation is sufficiently deranged.
2017-02-14T00:51:13Z Zhivago: I'd point the finger at a lack of extensible system classes.
2017-02-14T00:51:22Z aeth: What if I want an (unsigned-byte 8) followed by a single-float to be compact in memory without abusing undefined behavior or something similarly unmaintainable?
2017-02-14T00:51:35Z aeth: (repeated in that pattern say, idk 10,000 times)
2017-02-14T00:51:43Z Zhivago: standard-struct can potentially accommodate that.
2017-02-14T00:52:04Z aeth: do I want to create a macro to create a struct that has 20,000 fields, though?
2017-02-14T00:52:29Z quadresce: "Blow The Stack for 500 Alex"
2017-02-14T00:52:31Z quadresce: I kid
2017-02-14T00:52:50Z Zhivago: Well, nothing stops the implementation from producing specialized arrays for each structure type.
2017-02-14T00:53:26Z Zhivago: But it's all down to the implementation -- which is where I think the problem comes in -- it isn't implementable as a library.
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2017-02-14T00:55:30Z aeth: quadresce: I think it fits in most people's memory, though.... (/ (/ (* 8 10000 32 10000) 8) (expt 1024 3d0)) is about 3 GiB
2017-02-14T00:55:35Z aeth: if I did my math right
2017-02-14T00:55:54Z aeth: It is an extreme data structure, though.
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2017-02-14T00:56:31Z quadresce: aeth, I know, I'm just imagining a compiler writer not having considered 20k slots, and doing a non-tail-recursive expedition down the list of conses
2017-02-14T00:56:33Z aeth: (I tried to do bit -> byte -> gigabyte)
2017-02-14T00:57:01Z aeth: quadresce: it's definitely possible
2017-02-14T00:57:01Z pjb: aeth expt with integer powers is more efficient.
2017-02-14T00:57:10Z Zhivago: Why would you want 20k slots?
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2017-02-14T00:57:14Z pjb: (values (expt 1024 3d0) (expt 1024 3)) #| --> 1.073741824D+9 ; 1073741824 |#
2017-02-14T00:57:53Z quadresce: Zhivago, If an implementation is known to pack those slots efficiently, like aeth  was saying
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2017-02-14T00:58:14Z aeth: Zhivago: a data structure for 10,000 objects which consist of an (unsigned-byte 8) being treated as bits providing true/false metadata and a single-float... that needs to be iterated over constantly for some reason
2017-02-14T00:58:27Z aeth: let's say some game designer in #lispgames thought it was a good idea
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2017-02-14T00:59:40Z Zhivago: Why not use an array?
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2017-02-14T01:00:01Z aeth: because the array can't be upgraded if it has two different numerical types in it
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2017-02-14T01:00:19Z aeth: now, two arrays, one (unsigned-byte 8) and one single-float, are probably better afaik
2017-02-14T01:01:07Z aeth: but I could probably construct something then at size 1,000 that's more complicated and would 10 arrays large upgraded arrays be worth it or would it mess with the CPU cache?
2017-02-14T01:01:22Z aeth: s/10 arrays large upgraded arrays/10 large, upgraded arrays/
2017-02-14T01:01:37Z quadresce: aeth, it depends on your access pattern
2017-02-14T01:01:37Z Zhivago: Or you could have an implementation which specialized on the struct, but that would be a lot more work and be much less portable.
2017-02-14T01:02:14Z Zhivago: 10,000 seems like a small number -- what is the problem you're trying to solve?
2017-02-14T01:02:20Z aeth: right, specializing on a struct would ensure the CPU cache behaves properly on an upgraded array... and you'd probably need two paths, the other just using multiple upgraded arrays to be portable
2017-02-14T01:03:43Z aeth: Zhivago: one realistic use for up to 10,000 or so sets of numbers is storage of arbitrary game entities that is then abstracted over.
2017-02-14T01:04:47Z |3b| probably wouldn't want a feature like that if it packed single chars and floats with no padding (assuming no way to change that)
2017-02-14T01:04:54Z aeth: I cap entities at 2500 at the moment, and I currently use hash tables because unfortunately it's hard to beat hash tables in my test benchmarks (which I should've saved instead of doing in the REPL that SLIME by default resets practically daily).
2017-02-14T01:05:22Z |3b|: unaligned floats = slow on some CPUs, can't pass to GL, slow at best for SIMD on cpu, etc
2017-02-14T01:06:43Z quadresce: yes but the ultimate benchmark is how well it works with a framethrower
2017-02-14T01:06:49Z aeth: I think a CL NoSQL might also want to (ab)use arrays/structs, if someone were to write one.
2017-02-14T01:06:54Z quadresce: not these nvidia mumbo jumbo gfx cards with GL
2017-02-14T01:08:23Z |3b|: wouldn't they be attached to the nvidia mumbo jumbo?
2017-02-14T01:08:54Z quadresce: no way jose
2017-02-14T01:10:00Z aeth: I wonder how much you can do with CPU rendering with modern SIMD...
2017-02-14T01:10:57Z |3b|: decent amount, CPUs are pretty fast too
2017-02-14T01:11:42Z |3b|: though losing rasterization and filtering hardware would hurt
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2017-02-14T01:15:38Z pjb: Well, for real-time you get nice 3D, but with artificial-looking rendering.  With the GPU you can achieve realistic rendering.  Now, there's Intel 24-core server CPUs…
2017-02-14T01:15:49Z pjb: $8000+ a piece.
2017-02-14T01:16:35Z |3b|: also depends on whether you count xeon phi as "modern simd" or not :p
2017-02-14T01:17:16Z pjb: But then again, you can be smart: use the screen web cam to look the eyes of the user and determine where he's looking at, and compute the high resolution rendering only around this area, computing coarser resolution and rendering outside of it.
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2017-02-14T01:17:45Z pjb: Then I bet you could do very high quality photorealistic rendering even in lisp.
2017-02-14T01:17:56Z |3b| doesn't think most webcams are fast enough for good foveated rendering
2017-02-14T01:18:01Z |3b|: fast/low latency
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2017-02-14T01:18:43Z |3b|: so you lose a lot of the benefit from using a conservative estimate
2017-02-14T01:18:53Z aeth: pjb: that's what low-end VR does iirc, e.g. PSVR
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2017-02-14T01:19:03Z aeth: except they don't need to use a webcam, they know you're always looking at the center
2017-02-14T01:19:13Z |3b|: you aren't though :p
2017-02-14T01:19:18Z aeth: If you watch YouTube videos of PSVR, the edges are all blurry
2017-02-14T01:19:24Z |3b|: (they might do something similar for other reasons though)
2017-02-14T01:19:25Z aeth: well, depending on the game
2017-02-14T01:19:31Z |3b|: sure, the optics stretch things out
2017-02-14T01:19:48Z |3b|: but actually taking advantage of that can be difficult
2017-02-14T01:19:57Z |3b|: (possibly easier on PSVR due to fixed hardware though)
2017-02-14T01:21:39Z |3b|: rendering the scene a bunch of times with different settings can be expensive, and drawing it once but getting renders with different settings for different parts of screen needs hardware support
2017-02-14T01:21:53Z pjb: Facetime HD cameras  adjust the frame rate to the light.  The highest is 30 frame/second.
2017-02-14T01:22:53Z |3b|: right, not much help for 60Hz rendering, particularly when you need it 10-15ms before the frame in order to use it
2017-02-14T01:23:02Z pjb: So yes, perhaps you'd need external hardware. (there exist dedicated hardware for this purpose).
2017-02-14T01:23:06Z |3b|: and eyes move pretty fast
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2017-02-14T01:24:12Z |3b|: tends to be easier to just use dedicated hardware for the rendering than trying to simplify the rendering
2017-02-14T01:24:59Z pjb: Nonetheless, it might be worth trying with common hardware: what effect do you think it would have if you move the eyes to an area that is rendered coarsely, and 1/30 s later is rendered in highest resolution?  I would say you wouldn't notice it.
2017-02-14T01:25:13Z |3b|: probably easier to get most lisps to talk to the C APis of the dedicated hardware than to do the low-level multicore SIMD stuff anyway
2017-02-14T01:25:36Z aeth: talking to the C APIs is more portable because not every Lisp can SIMD
2017-02-14T01:26:20Z |3b|: pjb: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/foveated_final15.pdf more info if you are actually interested in the idea
2017-02-14T01:26:39Z pjb: thanks.
2017-02-14T01:27:45Z |3b|: one of those things like lisp machines and ray tracing that are good in theory but in practice can't keep up with brute-force + economies of scale :)
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2017-02-14T01:29:00Z |3b|: still hard to tell if foveated rendering will be a win for VR or not, depends on the relative rates of advancement of a few different types of tech: displays, display connections (wired and wireless), GPUs
2017-02-14T01:29:43Z aeth: It has never been easier to make a lisp machine.
2017-02-14T01:29:45Z pjb: |3b|: with 5K screens, it seems to be a shame to rendering all the pixels (even with GPUs) when you actually "see" only 1/100 of them.  You could compute so much more precisely the pixels you actually see, with the same GPU.
2017-02-14T01:30:20Z aeth: (Any lisp machine you make won't come anywhere close to the performance of SBCL on a recent i7, though.)
2017-02-14T01:30:21Z |3b|: aeth: sure, but probably never less useful either :p
2017-02-14T01:30:33Z |3b|: and won't interact with much of anything else
2017-02-14T01:30:38Z quadresce: aeth, But what if Lisp machines make you perform better as a programmer~
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2017-02-14T01:31:19Z aeth: |3b|: if you made it a superset of RISC-V you'd get llvm and gcc support
2017-02-14T01:31:58Z pjb: Yes, they seem to say that you need 300 Hz eye tracker hardware to avoid the "pop" effect.
2017-02-14T01:32:00Z |3b|: pjb: yeah, but modern rendering is tending towards more of the work not depending directly on pixel count as much, for example calculating things like global illumination or shadows
2017-02-14T01:33:04Z quadresce: pjb, is DO your favorite macro?
2017-02-14T01:33:12Z aeth: quadresce: There's lisp machine hardware, lispOS even on x86_64, and then there's lispDE even on Linux on x86_64... you probably only need the latter of the three to get productivity and you can poorly approximate it *today* by mixing StumpWM with GNU Emacs
2017-02-14T01:33:18Z pjb: quadresce: I use LOOP.
2017-02-14T01:33:33Z quadresce: pjb, yes but is DO your favorite
2017-02-14T01:33:48Z |3b|: then there are problems like multiple viewers, or streaming/recording the content
2017-02-14T01:33:49Z aeth: quadresce: I am the DO user in #lisp
2017-02-14T01:33:50Z quadresce: aeth, of course I mean a Symbolics Lisp Machine
2017-02-14T01:33:59Z quadresce: aeth, really? (:
2017-02-14T01:34:00Z pjb: quadresce: define-setf-expansion is nice :-)
2017-02-14T01:34:32Z aeth: quadresce: you just can't beat the elegance of zero-body DO imo
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2017-02-14T01:37:14Z quadresce: My #1 pet peeve is how to deal with indentation after LOOP's :DO keyword
2017-02-14T01:37:22Z aeth: quadresce: I'd argue that you'd be more productive on a lispDE on Linux on commodity hardware because the hardware would be faster and you'd have drivers for (practically) all of it. A lispm would be slower, and how often are you going to mess with the kernel or the drivers?
2017-02-14T01:37:52Z quadresce: Probably not often
2017-02-14T01:38:05Z quadresce: I always take the bait and just use a PROGN after :DO
2017-02-14T01:38:28Z pjb: slime seems to be doing a good job indenting after :do.
2017-02-14T01:38:33Z aeth: Whether you're running lispDE on FreeBSD or Linux or Mezzano, you're only really going to notice the OS when you lack drivers for something or have bad drivers for something, so network effects (i.e. Linux) will win imo
2017-02-14T01:38:36Z Zhivago: If loop is getting that complicated, it might be time to consider not using loop there.
2017-02-14T01:38:41Z Xach: I like that on the lisp machine there isn't a question about "what documentation system should i use"
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2017-02-14T01:39:07Z pjb: The local one, or the web?
2017-02-14T01:39:09Z Xach: that is worth something
2017-02-14T01:39:31Z aeth: Xach: yes, but you could go the Android route and still use the Linux kernel and drivers, but have essentially put a CL-focused (rather than Android's Java-focused) ecosystem on top of it
2017-02-14T01:39:32Z quicklispquestio: question for format experts: any other way to use an argument as part of a directive, other than with ~?
2017-02-14T01:39:36Z aeth: so imo it's still not an issue of lispm vs not lispm
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2017-02-14T01:39:48Z aeth: s/but have/but/
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2017-02-14T01:40:31Z Xach: aeth: ??? what does that have to do with a canonical documentation system?
2017-02-14T01:40:48Z aeth: because once you get rid of the GNU in GNU/Linux, you can do documentation whatever way you want in the userspace
2017-02-14T01:40:58Z Bike: quicklispquestio: nothing else can provide format directives, i think. v can use an argument as an argument to a directive.
2017-02-14T01:40:59Z aeth: no man/info/whatever
2017-02-14T01:41:27Z Xach: aeth: sure, you can do whatever way you want! that is what we have now and i do not like how it works.
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2017-02-14T01:42:12Z Xach: Bike, quicklispquestio: ~{~} is the other way.
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2017-02-14T01:43:39Z Bike: that doesn't let an argument to format provide parts of the format string, does it? i thought that's what was being asked
2017-02-14T01:43:49Z Xach: Bike: yes, it does.
2017-02-14T01:43:53Z pjb: ~? does
2017-02-14T01:43:58Z Xach: literally ~{~}, not ~{...~}
2017-02-14T01:44:26Z Bike: "If str is empty, then an argument is used as str." whoa
2017-02-14T01:44:39Z Bike: that is news to me
2017-02-14T01:44:40Z Xach: I use that from time to time.
2017-02-14T01:44:40Z pjb: (format nil "foo ~A ~? ~A bar" "<" "~A~:*~A" '(-) ">") #| --> "foo < -- > bar" |#
2017-02-14T01:45:02Z Bike: that was like, part of the question, pjb
2017-02-14T01:45:43Z quicklispquestio: I was trying to get "~1,#:;~A" where # is to be from a variable rather than in the string
2017-02-14T01:45:52Z Xach: quicklispquestio: v is the thing to use there
2017-02-14T01:46:08Z pjb: (format nil "foo ~A ~{~} ~A bar" "<" "~A~:*~A" '(-) ">") #| --> "foo < -- > bar" |#
2017-02-14T01:46:22Z pjb: I wonder why they added ~? if ~{~} does the job…
2017-02-14T01:46:33Z quicklispquestio: Xach: I tried that and it didn't seem to like whatever I tried to give it, but I'll look again
2017-02-14T01:47:19Z quicklispquestio: Xach: though could be because it is in a larger iteration construct
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2017-02-14T01:48:19Z |3b|: pjb: isn't ~? slightly different? can use any # of remaining arguments, while ~{~} uses 1 or all
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2017-02-14T01:51:16Z aeth: it looks like (format t "~D ~{~A~^ ~} ~D" 1 (list "hi" "hello") 2) is equivalent with (format t "~D ~{~} ~D" 1 "~A~^ " (list "hi" "hello") 2) in case anyone is confused
2017-02-14T01:51:35Z aeth: it looks like it just takes the inner part out and puts it in its own string that comes before the list
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2017-02-14T01:51:54Z aeth: (maybe I was the only one confused there)
2017-02-14T01:54:56Z quicklispquestio: aeth: thanks, that makes it clear. I think that is the same as ~@? then
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2017-02-14T01:55:40Z quadresce: They should have a #'EXPAND-FORMAT-STRING to help debug
2017-02-14T01:55:53Z Bike: formatter does that on sbcl.
2017-02-14T01:55:57Z Bike: ccl isn't as helpful tho
2017-02-14T01:57:05Z quadresce: Bike, you should write FORMAT-COACH and make it a webapp
2017-02-14T01:58:05Z aeth: actually, this seems very useful because you can have something that's identical for everything except the list part, e.g. when converting s-expressions to infix
2017-02-14T01:58:12Z quicklispquestio: give it sample input and what you want as output and it finds the control string, would be quite nice
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2017-02-14T02:02:05Z Bike: well that's much harder.
2017-02-14T02:02:06Z _death: (defun reverse-format (input output) (declare (ignore input)) (format-quote output)) :d
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2017-02-14T02:04:34Z |3b|: seems like avoiding overfitting would be hard... need lots of examples to jut just get chunks of the desired output as literal parts of the format string :)
2017-02-14T02:04:48Z |3b|: *to not just get
2017-02-14T02:07:13Z _death: input: (6), output: "66"
2017-02-14T02:09:07Z quicklispquestio: could scrape lisp code available for format strings and use that as building blocks
2017-02-14T02:09:25Z quicklispquestio: but yeah, tricky problem, would be nice though :-P
2017-02-14T02:10:03Z _death: how about something that takes the output of TIME and produces a function that attempts to reproduce it :)
2017-02-14T02:11:58Z _death: even multiple TIME runs of the same function are likely to differ.. so approximation is good enough
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2017-02-14T02:23:59Z nelder: hi all, i try to configure etags and make config file to create tags from emacs and want to specify scan-directory and destination directory where TAGS file will be created. Where i wrong? https://paste.pound-python.org/show/rJPq0h7XBaUCNyyTTb7H/
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2017-02-14T02:24:56Z |3b|: nelder: #emacs knows more about emacs/elisp, this channel is about common lisp
2017-02-14T02:25:19Z nelder: |3b|, i see, thx
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2017-02-14T02:28:17Z |3b| suspects you need to specify the tags filename though, and/or set working directory
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2017-02-14T02:31:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could also just write a macro that expands a dsl into a format string :)
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2017-02-14T02:32:38Z nelder: yes, this is my goal idea, byt i dont know how make interactive mode twice...
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2017-02-14T02:41:05Z smokeink: when breaking in debugger because of an error, how to investigate the condition object ?
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2017-02-14T02:43:13Z Bike: in slime, capital C
2017-02-14T02:43:13Z smokeink: is it binded to some *condition* ?
2017-02-14T02:43:33Z smokeink: and without slime ?
2017-02-14T02:44:15Z Bike: depends on the implementation.
2017-02-14T02:44:49Z Bike: when someone asked this before i couldn't find a way to get at it in ccl or sbcl.
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2017-02-14T02:49:38Z |3b|: you could probably modify *debugger-hook* to store it if you need it and can't get from impl
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2017-02-14T02:53:47Z |3b|: sbcl seems to have sb-debug:*debug-condition* though (possibly not a supported interface, but probably good enough for debugging)
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2017-02-14T02:56:53Z |3b| will have to remember that C hotkey though, easier than RET or middle clicking on the error at top of slime debugger :)
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2017-02-14T03:08:37Z aeth: what's back in the slime inspector? I always accidentally go one too deep... e.g. right now I'm inspecting 3 after testing out C
2017-02-14T03:09:01Z |3b|: l ?
2017-02-14T03:09:24Z aeth: interestingly, it shows a lot of different things about 3... hex, octal, binary, float, character, its integer-length, and 3 as time
2017-02-14T03:09:29Z aeth: it is l
2017-02-14T03:09:34Z |3b|: only works on navigation within inspector though
2017-02-14T03:09:37Z aeth: I pressed just about every key except for l
2017-02-14T03:09:53Z |3b|: short for 'last' i think
2017-02-14T03:10:30Z aeth: yes, I kept thinking it would be 'p' (previous) or 'b' (back)
2017-02-14T03:10:40Z |3b|: or possibly mouse-6 if you have one
2017-02-14T03:10:49Z quadresce: LMAO
2017-02-14T03:10:49Z aeth: (based on my emacs intuition, p or b make more sense)
2017-02-14T03:10:53Z |3b|: yeah, function is named pop
2017-02-14T03:11:20Z aeth: I have a mouse-8 and a mouse-9 but oddly enough I think I'm missing, what? 4-7?
2017-02-14T03:11:36Z Bike: real programmers use joysticks for this reason
2017-02-14T03:11:44Z |3b|: looks like l matches emacs *Help* too
2017-02-14T03:12:10Z |3b|: some of those might be wheel (or have been in the past)
2017-02-14T03:12:31Z aeth: oh I see, up wheel is 4 and down-wheel is 5
2017-02-14T03:12:37Z aeth: so I'm only missing 6 and 7
2017-02-14T03:12:48Z Bike: wheel left and wheel right i bet
2017-02-14T03:13:00Z |3b|: yeah, that was my guess
2017-02-14T03:13:15Z aeth: ah this mouse doesn't have those
2017-02-14T03:13:44Z Bike: try wiggling it
2017-02-14T03:13:49Z |3b| needs a better mouse, this one just has left/right/wheel, no wheel-left/wheel-right or extra buttons :(
2017-02-14T03:14:14Z drmeister: CFFI question:  Could someone help me understnd this?
2017-02-14T03:14:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/awz5gwZK/
2017-02-14T03:14:16Z |3b|: not that i use them that much
2017-02-14T03:14:25Z aeth: My mouse has two extra mouse buttons that are interpreted in the web browser as back and forward, and then three buttons that adjust the DPI (higher, lower, and hold for temporarily slow) that I don't think go to the OS at all
2017-02-14T03:14:38Z |3b|: drmeister: what about it?
2017-02-14T03:14:50Z jibanes quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2017-02-14T03:14:55Z aeth: (It's a "gamer" mouse so it also has a useless blue LED that I don't think can be disabled from Linux, but I guess I'll never lose my mouse in the dark.)
2017-02-14T03:14:59Z drmeister: It's part of the glut open-gl code.   I think it's supposed to convert key presses/characters into character codes (integers).
2017-02-14T03:15:10Z |3b|: CFFI has a protocol for extending its compiler macros, i think that is what the eval-when is for
2017-02-14T03:15:35Z |3b|: yeah, sounds plausible
2017-02-14T03:16:10Z |3b|: actually, i think it turns the codes into characters
2017-02-14T03:16:28Z drmeister: On clasp I hit 'w' and it's coming through to the event handler as #\w when it should come through as the ASCII value of #\w (119).  There are callbacks and stuff - so it's hard to follow where the problem is.
2017-02-14T03:16:36Z |3b|: :actual-type says it expects an :unsigned-char from C, then the translator calls code-char on that
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2017-02-14T03:17:54Z |3b| things getting actual characters is correct for cl-glut keyboard callbacks
2017-02-14T03:18:09Z |3b|: what is breaking?
2017-02-14T03:19:06Z drmeister: This is the cl-glut keyboard callback:
2017-02-14T03:19:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/HTpDzeoa/
2017-02-14T03:19:20Z drmeister: It calls (code-char key) and that fails because key is #\w
2017-02-14T03:19:25Z |3b|: yeah, was just seeing that
2017-02-14T03:19:28Z drmeister: Is it a bug in the callback
2017-02-14T03:19:45Z drmeister: I'll see if I can find other glut:keyboard callbacks
2017-02-14T03:19:52Z |3b|: but https://github.com/3b/cl-opengl/blob/master/examples/misc/glut-teapot.lisp#L44 seems to expect char
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2017-02-14T03:20:31Z drmeister: This is from gears.lisp - it also expects a char
2017-02-14T03:20:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/p7cakCP4/
2017-02-14T03:20:39Z drmeister: I guess it's a bug in the demo.
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2017-02-14T03:22:13Z drmeister: Well, well, well.  This is a turning point.
2017-02-14T03:22:40Z |3b|: sounds like progress if you are finding bugs in things that aren't your code :)
2017-02-14T03:22:43Z drmeister: It's the first time that I can recall clasp behaving properly and someone else's Common Lisp code having a bug.
2017-02-14T03:23:28Z drmeister: The opengl demos run - this one chokes when I hit a key.
2017-02-14T03:23:31Z drmeister: Fixing...
2017-02-14T03:24:22Z drmeister: NOT SO HIGH AND MIGHTY NOW EH? - SOMEONE I DON'T KNOWS CODE
2017-02-14T03:24:34Z Bike: hopefully not 3b
2017-02-14T03:24:35Z aeth: drmeister: does that mean you're working on issue 162 now?
2017-02-14T03:24:46Z |3b| wonders why that CODE-CHAR was added with an "update license" commit
2017-02-14T03:25:06Z Bike: drmeister has been working on cffi for like, a year
2017-02-14T03:25:16Z |3b| apparently committed it at least
2017-02-14T03:25:20Z Bike: well, and frgo
2017-02-14T03:26:11Z aeth: I wouldn't have assumed that CFFI would be so hard in clasp
2017-02-14T03:26:19Z drmeister: frgo did the heavy lifting - I'm providing support.
2017-02-14T03:26:45Z aeth: I thought the point of something like clasp is interoperability
2017-02-14T03:26:50Z aeth: Does CFFI do something very different?
2017-02-14T03:26:52Z Bike: i think in clasp you can just load bitcode and it works, but cffi isn't about bitcode
2017-02-14T03:27:58Z drmeister: Huh - when I edit the source file and restart and quickload the demos - it doesn't recompile the file.  Shouldn't it recompile the file?
2017-02-14T03:28:04Z drmeister: This is quicklisp
2017-02-14T03:29:47Z |3b|: ah, looks like it was fix then fix got reverted accidentally when updating license
2017-02-14T03:30:07Z drmeister: It's taking longer
2017-02-14T03:32:04Z drmeister: I'm wiping out glut and rebuilding it.
2017-02-14T03:33:40Z drmeister: aeth: Yes, you could say I'm working on issue #162
2017-02-14T03:34:19Z drmeister: Clasp has a much better IMHO interoperability capability than CFFI.   But there is lots of code written that uses CFFI like cl-opengl.
2017-02-14T03:34:25Z drmeister: I don't pass up a free lunch.
2017-02-14T03:34:33Z |3b|: drmeister: pushed fix for that molview thing
2017-02-14T03:34:38Z Bike: even if it turns out to be very expensive!!
2017-02-14T03:34:46Z drmeister will work like a dog for 6 months for a free lunch.
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2017-02-14T03:35:03Z drmeister: A free lunch is a free lunch.
2017-02-14T03:36:05Z |3b|: yeah, lots of implementations probably have something nicer than cffi, but none of them work on the other implementations :p
2017-02-14T03:37:08Z aeth: drmeister: cl-opengl and cl-sdl2 are the two big ones that I can think of (frequently paired)
2017-02-14T03:38:13Z aeth: also probably whatever the Qt library is
2017-02-14T03:38:50Z Bike: i think commonqt does other things.
2017-02-14T03:39:04Z drmeister: I'm changing the molview.lisp source file but the error keeps coming up.    Am I editing the wrong file?  Weird.
2017-02-14T03:39:08Z Bike: since qt is written in C++, or rather C++ with macros to add introspection, or something.
2017-02-14T03:39:16Z aeth: ah
2017-02-14T03:39:51Z |3b|: drmeister: maybe try (asdf:load-system 'cl-glut-examples :force t) ?
2017-02-14T03:40:10Z quadresce has some convenient Makefile code
2017-02-14T03:40:52Z quadresce: clean-cache:
2017-02-14T03:40:53Z quadresce:         @echo "Deleting $(LISP_CACHE)"
2017-02-14T03:40:53Z quadresce:         sbcl --noinform --non-interactive \
2017-02-14T03:40:53Z quadresce:              --eval "(ql:register-local-projects)"
2017-02-14T03:40:53Z quadresce:         rm -rf $(LISP_CACHE)
2017-02-14T03:40:59Z quadresce: LISP_CACHE ?= `sbcl --noinform --non-interactive --eval '(princ asdf:*user-cache
2017-02-14T03:40:59Z quadresce: *)'`
2017-02-14T03:41:02Z quadresce: hth ;)
2017-02-14T03:41:18Z drmeister: But that's an sbcl thing?
2017-02-14T03:41:27Z |3b|: drmeister: and make sure (ql:where-is-system 'cl-glut-examples) matches where you are editing
2017-02-14T03:41:28Z quadresce: whatever Lisp
2017-02-14T03:41:43Z quadresce: drmeister, not SBCL specific at all
2017-02-14T03:42:20Z aeth: oooh
2017-02-14T03:42:24Z quadresce: (& sorry for the paste in channel)
2017-02-14T03:42:35Z aeth: asdf:*user-cache* is the cache apparently
2017-02-14T03:42:41Z aeth: quadresce: that's wrong, though
2017-02-14T03:42:48Z quadresce: is it wrong if it works for me
2017-02-14T03:42:52Z aeth: it's really asdf:*user-cache*'s parent directory
2017-02-14T03:42:58Z drmeister: Nope - nothing I do seems to reload it.
2017-02-14T03:43:04Z drmeister: rebuild it.
2017-02-14T03:43:06Z aeth: Especially since the stuff you want to clean are probably from older lisps you no longer even have!
2017-02-14T03:43:21Z quadresce: aeth, this is specifically for the compiler/implementation you're using
2017-02-14T03:43:27Z quadresce: don't step on other people's toes!
2017-02-14T03:43:41Z aeth: I still have an sbcl-1.0.51 directory in my ASDF cache
2017-02-14T03:43:46Z drmeister: I put a print statement in the method - that's not printing either.   The source might be somewhere else?
2017-02-14T03:43:57Z Bike: aged, like fine wine
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2017-02-14T03:44:32Z |3b|: drmeister: yeah, (ql:where-is-system 'cl-glut-examples) should tell you what it is loading
2017-02-14T03:45:11Z drmeister: I have one copy of molview.lisp on my system.  This is annoying.
2017-02-14T03:45:36Z drmeister: Perhaps the bug is higher up.
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2017-02-14T03:48:33Z aeth: (apparently the 1.0.51 cache is from Jan 31 2012, i.e. 5 years ago)
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2017-02-14T03:56:10Z drmeister: |3b|: What fix did you push for the molview thing?
2017-02-14T03:56:23Z |3b|: just removed the code-char from it
2017-02-14T03:56:24Z drmeister: I don't think it's getting into that function - there may be a problem in Clasp and it may be here:
2017-02-14T03:56:35Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/bqY5Ik8V/
2017-02-14T03:56:44Z drmeister: Not that
2017-02-14T03:56:49Z |3b|: glut is a bit annoying in my current setup though, so not actually tested
2017-02-14T03:56:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/3DBYPRlj/
2017-02-14T03:57:30Z |3b|: you still get an error when you hit a key?
2017-02-14T03:57:48Z |3b|: what's the error/backtrace?
2017-02-14T03:58:17Z drmeister: Mind you - it's a clasp backtrace - hang on...
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2017-02-14T04:00:41Z drmeister: Hmmm,  I changed it to this:
2017-02-14T04:00:43Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AbvEmFc6/
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2017-02-14T04:01:08Z drmeister: Now it's getting into that callback:
2017-02-14T04:01:09Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/J2LWN4HG/
2017-02-14T04:01:15Z |3b|: missing some parens there?
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2017-02-14T04:01:58Z drmeister: You wanna know one thing I hate about lisp?  All those parens
2017-02-14T04:02:17Z drmeister is kidding - he loves clear scope delimiters.
2017-02-14T04:02:17Z |3b|: did you leave (key) in the case in molview?>
2017-02-14T04:02:24Z |3b|: instead of just key
2017-02-14T04:02:28Z quadresce: Lisp would be so successful if all those parens were deleted!
2017-02-14T04:02:31Z |3b|: should be (case key ...)
2017-02-14T04:02:55Z drmeister: Ah yes.
2017-02-14T04:03:43Z |3b|: if you get #\w in the keyboard callback with the pasted expand-from-foreign though, something might be wrong with your cffi
2017-02-14T04:04:13Z drmeister: There might be something wrong with the cffi - it's only been working for a few hours.
2017-02-14T04:04:56Z |3b|: you recompiled the whole code and not just that expand-from-foreign function?
2017-02-14T04:05:14Z drmeister: Now it works.  Pressing a key does what it's supposed to do.
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2017-02-14T04:06:04Z drmeister: Taking out debug print statements
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2017-02-14T04:10:56Z drmeister: Hmmmm,
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2017-02-14T04:11:45Z drmeister: When the method looks like this - it doesn't work, the key callback isn't called and I get the error: Condition of type: TYPE-ERROR #\w is not of type INTEGER
2017-02-14T04:11:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ud99Wn8Y/
2017-02-14T04:12:06Z |3b|: right, that's where i was suspecting something wrong with your cffi
2017-02-14T04:12:25Z |3b|: it is expecting to translate an integer to character, but getting a character
2017-02-14T04:12:39Z drmeister: This is a method definition - how could it interact with cffi to give this behavior?
2017-02-14T04:13:03Z |3b|: that is a cffi method used to translate the data
2017-02-14T04:17:12Z |3b|: is your cffi backend visible anywhere?
2017-02-14T04:17:27Z drmeister: I had it working though with what I thought were some innocuous print statements inserted.  Then I took them out and it broke again.
2017-02-14T04:17:34Z drmeister: I'm trying to get it working again.
2017-02-14T04:17:54Z drmeister: Yeah - hang on.
2017-02-14T04:18:12Z |3b|: if you mean https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AbvEmFc6/ that wasn't innocuous :p
2017-02-14T04:18:39Z |3b|: you were returning the value unmodified instead of calling code-char
2017-02-14T04:18:41Z drmeister: Weird, now I can't get it working again.
2017-02-14T04:18:48Z |3b| is surprised if that compiled though
2017-02-14T04:19:01Z drmeister: Oh another parenthesis issue.
2017-02-14T04:19:09Z drmeister: Yeah - why did it compile.
2017-02-14T04:21:00Z |3b|: does (cffi:with-foreign-object (p :int) (cffi:mem-ref p :unsigned-char)) return a character or integer for you?
2017-02-14T04:21:33Z drmeister: Well, for some bizarre reason - that code above compiles.
2017-02-14T04:22:11Z drmeister: (cffi:with-foreign-object (p :int) (cffi:mem-ref p :unsigned-char)) --> 0
2017-02-14T04:22:13Z Bike: what, with code-char just there?
2017-02-14T04:22:19Z drmeister: Yes.
2017-02-14T04:22:41Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/376vKMaf/
2017-02-14T04:22:46Z Bike: probably cleavir assumes its special because of the handler, and then eats it since the value is unused
2017-02-14T04:22:47Z drmeister: That compiles.
2017-02-14T04:23:03Z Bike: i don't think the parens even match tho
2017-02-14T04:23:04Z drmeister: Maybe
2017-02-14T04:23:08Z drmeister: They don't
2017-02-14T04:23:13Z drmeister: There's an extra one at the end
2017-02-14T04:23:17Z |3b|: yeah, undefined var and extra )
2017-02-14T04:23:32Z Bike: clasp can compile more programs than any competitor!!
2017-02-14T04:23:49Z drmeister: Yeah! Suck on that!
2017-02-14T04:24:00Z drmeister: |3b|: So what hould that return?
2017-02-14T04:24:20Z |3b|: arbitrary integer i think
2017-02-14T04:25:13Z drmeister: sbcl returns 97
2017-02-14T04:25:32Z |3b|: sbcl returns random stuff, it is reading uninitialized memory :)
2017-02-14T04:25:36Z Bike: it's j ust reading uninitialized memory, yeah? you're just making sure the transforms work right
2017-02-14T04:25:41Z |3b|: right
2017-02-14T04:25:57Z drmeister: |3b|: Do you have any recommendation for what to do with glut?
2017-02-14T04:26:27Z |3b|: drmeister: debug cffi? :p
2017-02-14T04:26:42Z |3b|: how about (cffi:with-foreign-object (p :int) (cffi:mem-ref p 'cl-glut::ascii-to-char)) ?
2017-02-14T04:27:14Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lGfu1zmB/
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2017-02-14T04:28:08Z |3b|: hmm
2017-02-14T04:28:39Z drmeister: I mean - yes, there may be bugs in CFFI - I've been debugging it for two days - I haven't covered all of it.
2017-02-14T04:28:54Z drmeister: A test case that would illustrate the bug would be helpful.  I'm not sure what the problem is.
2017-02-14T04:29:18Z drmeister: Should value be an integer (likely) or a character?
2017-02-14T04:29:43Z drmeister: I fixed this:
2017-02-14T04:29:44Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/dL1xO1OT/
2017-02-14T04:29:54Z drmeister: Now I get:
2017-02-14T04:29:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cwjcqfQ1/
2017-02-14T04:30:00Z drmeister: #\NUL
2017-02-14T04:30:15Z |3b|: yeah, looking right with the separate tests
2017-02-14T04:30:49Z drmeister: When I run the demo:
2017-02-14T04:30:50Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/eEgcPsCl/
2017-02-14T04:31:06Z drmeister: So it shouldn't get a character - it should get an integer.
2017-02-14T04:31:11Z |3b|: right
2017-02-14T04:31:12Z drmeister: I'm not sure where it's coming from.
2017-02-14T04:31:55Z drmeister: expand-from-foreign is only found at that one place.
2017-02-14T04:32:02Z drmeister: Is that a CFFI thing?  checking...
2017-02-14T04:32:46Z drmeister: Yes it is.  It's a CFFI thing... reading...
2017-02-14T04:33:42Z drmeister: Ok, it's clearly a CFFI problem - I'll dig into it tomorrow.
2017-02-14T04:33:51Z |3b|: try http://paste.lisp.org/+79ND
2017-02-14T04:36:21Z drmeister: That doesn't work for other reason.
2017-02-14T04:36:36Z drmeister: It's another CFFI bug - I'll have to do some more debugging tomorrow.
2017-02-14T04:36:52Z |3b|: ah, that makes things harder :)
2017-02-14T04:37:03Z drmeister: It's what I do.
2017-02-14T04:37:45Z |3b| 's random guess is that it is translating the :unsigned-char to a character in the callback before CFFI sees it
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2017-02-14T04:53:14Z drmeister: Oh - here's the CFFI that frgo is working on:
2017-02-14T04:53:14Z drmeister: https://github.com/dg1sbg/cffi
2017-02-14T04:53:53Z loke___: Hello
2017-02-14T04:54:16Z drmeister: And the low level CL code:
2017-02-14T04:54:16Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/dev/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/fli.lsp
2017-02-14T04:54:33Z Bike: gotta update that comment
2017-02-14T04:55:06Z drmeister: Which one?
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2017-02-14T04:58:10Z Bike: no issues so far :p
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2017-02-14T05:01:01Z smokeink: how to view a backtrace without slime in sbcl ?
2017-02-14T05:01:22Z Bike: if you type 'help' you'll get the commaands
2017-02-14T05:01:27Z Bike: this one is uh... backtrace
2017-02-14T05:01:39Z Bike: so type "backtrace" to get a full one, or "backtrace 7" for the last seven frames
2017-02-14T05:01:43Z smokeink: thanks
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2017-02-14T05:51:49Z drmeister: |3b|: Where does the ascii-to-char translator live - I don't see it in the CFFI code or the low level CFFI code.
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2017-02-14T05:53:05Z drmeister: I see it - it's a glut specific thing.  THe bug is probably in the CFFI code tht supports tht facilkitysdfahsjkldfajsdfalksjdf
2017-02-14T05:53:35Z drmeister: Don't buy a new Macbook Pro until they fix the d*mn keyboards.  They suck.   Tandy Color Computer suck.
2017-02-14T05:56:33Z easye: drmeister: I thought the keyboard feel was more like the old ThinkPad "double butterfly" mechanism.  It is that bad?
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2017-02-14T06:09:11Z Zhivago: I always found the mac touchpads too heavy-handed to be usable.
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2017-02-14T06:25:23Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-14T06:43:57Z easye: Heya beach.
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2017-02-14T06:47:16Z easye: I seem to be stuck in the same problem: how do I navigate ASDF component hierarchies?  I'd like to get the collection of all components referenced recursively which meet a predicate ("a component of type STATIC-FILE and whose pathname ends in one of a set of suffixes").  Getting bit by SLOT-UNBOUND on the mismatch betwee nASDF:COMPONENT subtypes who aren't collections.
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2017-02-14T06:57:40Z pillton: easye: This is how I did it: https://github.com/markcox80/lisp-executable/blob/master/src/creation.lisp#L72
2017-02-14T06:58:15Z pillton: easye: It works as of 2013.
2017-02-14T06:58:28Z pillton: easye: It isn't exactly what you want, but should give you a start.
2017-02-14T07:00:09Z easye: pillton: Thanks.  I got done what I need via wrapping my accessors in IGNORE-ERRORS
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2017-02-14T09:04:07Z phoe_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_float.htm
2017-02-14T09:04:22Z phoe_:  (float 1/2) =>  0.5
2017-02-14T09:04:22Z phoe_: =>  1.0d0
2017-02-14T09:04:26Z phoe_: OR=>  1.0
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2017-02-14T09:04:32Z phoe_: WTF?
2017-02-14T09:05:21Z Bike: i g uess that could be indicating the float collapse thing
2017-02-14T09:05:29Z Bike: like double-float can be the same type as single-float
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2017-02-14T09:05:38Z Bike: weird way to express it tho
2017-02-14T09:06:14Z Bike: or maybe the comment is from a previous time when if prototype was unspecified it could be any kind of float
2017-02-14T09:06:47Z phoe_: This makes no sense.
2017-02-14T09:07:04Z phoe_: I read this as, (float 1/2) returns two values, 0.5 and 1.0d0, OR a single value which is 1.0.
2017-02-14T09:07:11Z phoe_: Which makes completely no sense.
2017-02-14T09:07:26Z Bike: sure doesn't
2017-02-14T09:07:38Z Bike: i'm thinkin... ignore that
2017-02-14T09:07:43Z phoe_: these two lines?
2017-02-14T09:07:52Z Bike: jah
2017-02-14T09:07:56Z phoe_: (declare (ignore these-two-lines))
2017-02-14T09:07:58Z phoe_: and life goes on
2017-02-14T09:08:46Z ogamita: phoe_: where do you read that? not in clhs float.
2017-02-14T09:08:59Z phoe_: ogamita: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_float.htm
2017-02-14T09:09:01Z phoe_: examples
2017-02-14T09:09:02Z Bike: it's in the examples, right there
2017-02-14T09:09:10Z smokeink: is it a bad practice to define functions, symbols & stuff in a .asd file ?
2017-02-14T09:09:12Z phoe_: For "Function FLOAT"
2017-02-14T09:09:21Z phoe_: smokeink: why would you need that?
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2017-02-14T09:09:46Z shka: smokeink: yes, it is
2017-02-14T09:09:53Z phoe_: and why cannot you instead do this in the first .lisp file it loads?
2017-02-14T09:09:55Z shka: phoe_: just… wow
2017-02-14T09:10:28Z shka: seriously WTF
2017-02-14T09:10:29Z smokeink: chipz library does that ... and it's messing up things
2017-02-14T09:10:46Z phoe_: smokeink: gimme the link
2017-02-14T09:10:53Z phoe_: GitHub or something
2017-02-14T09:11:03Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Other-code-in-_002easd-files.html#Other-code-in-_002easd-files says the manual, but i thought i remembered harsher words
2017-02-14T09:11:04Z shka: "your asd is bad and you should feel bad!"
2017-02-14T09:11:04Z smokeink: asdf:operate 'asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op  won't export .fasl from the .asd files
2017-02-14T09:11:21Z phoe_: https://github.com/froydnj/chipz/blob/master/chipz.asd
2017-02-14T09:11:35Z phoe_: WTF
2017-02-14T09:11:43Z Bike: that doesn't seem bad
2017-02-14T09:11:53Z phoe_: yes, but this DEFCLASS makes no sense in an ASD file
2017-02-14T09:12:13Z Bike: why not
2017-02-14T09:12:35Z Bike: they're subclasses of asdf things, used in the defsystem
2017-02-14T09:12:51Z phoe_: oh wait
2017-02-14T09:13:01Z phoe_: I didn't realize that.
2017-02-14T09:13:13Z smokeink: the problem i'm encountering here is with those chipz-system:symbols
2017-02-14T09:13:23Z phoe_: smokeink: what is it?
2017-02-14T09:13:35Z smokeink: 1sec i 'll give you one or two forms to eval and reproduce the error
2017-02-14T09:13:50Z phoe_: smokeink: or give me the debugger message
2017-02-14T09:14:26Z smokeink: read error during load  stream.lisp : Package CHIPZ-SYSTEM does not exist
2017-02-14T09:14:39Z smokeink: cuz asdf didn't produce a fasl from that .asd
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2017-02-14T09:15:02Z smokeink: and chipz-system is defined in the asd, so in my .fasl bundle there's no definition for CHIPZ-SYSTEM
2017-02-14T09:15:17Z smokeink: that's why it says package doesn't exist
2017-02-14T09:16:08Z ogamita: phoe_: again, examples are not normative, and clearly these are surnumerous lines.
2017-02-14T09:16:27Z phoe_: ogamita: yes, I see.
2017-02-14T09:16:37Z phoe_: smokeink: I see.
2017-02-14T09:16:42Z smokeink: cl-jpeg also has some little issues, eval this and see: (load "~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-jpeg-20170124-git/package.lisp") (load "~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/cl-jpeg-20170124-git/jpeg.lisp")
2017-02-14T09:16:50Z ogamita: (there's no way that (= 1/2 1.0d0) so obviously, these are not results of the given example).
2017-02-14T09:17:28Z smokeink: inside long eval-when forms there are subforms which are dependend one upon another , i just separated them a bit and it worked so the fix is quick
2017-02-14T09:17:38Z phoe_: it's this DEFPACKAGE which is not preserved after FASLing the system.
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2017-02-14T09:18:43Z phoe_: file a GitHub issue.
2017-02-14T09:23:07Z phoe_ bbl
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2017-02-14T09:40:59Z smokeink: so what would be a good fix for chipz.asd ?
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2017-02-14T09:41:41Z Bike: defsystem-depends-on, i think, but don't ask me how to use it
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2017-02-14T10:07:34Z afidegnum: hello, good morning,  what best lisp web micro web framework can i start developing applications with? what's is benchmark?
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2017-02-14T10:08:02Z easye likes RESTAS.
2017-02-14T10:08:19Z easye: Not sure if it "micro" enough for ya
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2017-02-14T10:09:35Z afidegnum: i mean something you can build from scratch and gradually pick up,
2017-02-14T10:09:44Z afidegnum: like Flask Python
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2017-02-14T10:18:43Z flip214: afidegnum: hunchentoot, and/or quux-hunchentoot (which uses a thread pool)
2017-02-14T10:19:21Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-14T10:19:29Z afidegnum: checking
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2017-02-14T10:30:16Z afidegnum: flip214: what's their benchmark? i can't find any info about it
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2017-02-14T10:32:34Z flip214: afidegnum: you can use "ab" or "wrk" as benchmark... that's what I did
2017-02-14T10:33:08Z flip214: "ab" is severely CPU-limited, though ... I'd suggest "wrk"
2017-02-14T10:35:54Z afidegnum: have you got some available results ?
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2017-02-14T10:38:08Z flip214: well, quux-hunchentoot was good enough for me ... but I only tested on a 4-CPU machine, so 2 HTTP threads and 2 wrk threads did completely use all CPU
2017-02-14T10:38:15Z flip214: no, don't have any results anymore.
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2017-02-14T10:41:12Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-14T10:41:31Z flip214: ah, just found the lisp script I used...
2017-02-14T10:41:45Z afidegnum: let me give it a try, i m developing an app in python which is giving me tough time on the way, so i decided to give lisp a try
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2017-02-14T10:46:28Z flip214: hmmm, "wrk" doesn't work for me... just loops internally.
2017-02-14T10:46:35Z flip214: ab -n 1000 -c 2 http://localhost:3309/static
2017-02-14T10:46:46Z flip214: where "/static" is an easy-handler returning a "Hello world" string
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2017-02-14T10:54:44Z flip214: ah, the older version of wrk works
2017-02-14T10:55:12Z flip214: afidegnum: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339115
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2017-02-14T10:56:42Z afidegnum: hmm... it still needs improving,
2017-02-14T10:57:19Z afidegnum: can i use lisp to build a social networking influenced appplication? looking at huge requests and at times surge or requests too
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2017-02-14T10:58:21Z malice`: afidegnum: why not?
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2017-02-14T10:59:15Z flip214: afidegnum: that's without any optimizations, and with the default acceptor/easy-handler functions.
2017-02-14T10:59:32Z flip214: surely you can do quite some optimizations.
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2017-02-14T11:00:35Z ogamita: afidegnum: you're late in the game.  There are already people using lisp to influence social networking applications ! (eg. twitter).
2017-02-14T11:00:37Z afidegnum: what are available optimizations which can be required at a longer date?
2017-02-14T11:01:07Z afidegnum: ogamita: :) i want to follow their footsteps :D
2017-02-14T11:01:42Z ogamita: afidegnum: my point is go ahead, it's not lisp that will prevent you to do it, on the contrary.
2017-02-14T11:02:31Z afidegnum: yes, i haven't said the opposite, i m looking for tools that can enhance productivity, if possible more easier than its competitorss
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2017-02-14T11:06:17Z afidegnum: is there a way to develop mobile applications with any lips libraries or tools?
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2017-02-14T11:06:33Z afidegnum: which can easilly be deployed with all platforms ?
2017-02-14T11:08:19Z ogamita: afidegnum: there's MoCL (wukix.com)
2017-02-14T11:08:31Z ogamita: afidegnum: ecl for android too.
2017-02-14T11:08:45Z shaftoe: lispworks has some mobile development tools
2017-02-14T11:08:49Z shaftoe: but thats commercial
2017-02-14T11:09:11Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-02-14T11:09:31Z malice`: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/#orgheadline18
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2017-02-14T11:14:48Z afidegnum: ok, checking
2017-02-14T11:15:37Z afidegnum: what about video streaming ? and VoIp ?
2017-02-14T11:20:11Z shaftoe: hold on tiger
2017-02-14T11:20:18Z shaftoe: don't get ahead of yourself
2017-02-14T11:20:55Z afidegnum: :)
2017-02-14T11:20:57Z shaftoe: any functionality in existing C libraries can be integrated with a Lisp program
2017-02-14T11:21:03Z shaftoe: using CFFI
2017-02-14T11:25:14Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-02-14T12:32:44Z shka: afidegnum: well, you just need a fast http server and fast database
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2017-02-14T12:33:24Z shka: both are already existing
2017-02-14T12:33:43Z shka: and CL has little to say in terms of performance
2017-02-14T12:33:54Z shka: since it just glues those two things together
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2017-02-14T12:34:03Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-14T12:34:19Z afidegnum: what best http server would you recommend ?
2017-02-14T12:34:49Z shaftoe: https://github.com/CodyReichert/awesome-cl
2017-02-14T12:35:18Z shaftoe: http://quickdocs.org/search?q=http
2017-02-14T12:35:40Z shka: afidegnum: use clack
2017-02-14T12:35:52Z afidegnum: ok, thanks,
2017-02-14T12:35:57Z shka: you can plug different servers into it
2017-02-14T12:36:06Z shka: it is like Ruby's Rack
2017-02-14T12:36:49Z shka: so you can use hunchentoot server for development, and switch to something faster for release
2017-02-14T12:37:03Z shka: hunchentoot is cool because it is simple to setup and use
2017-02-14T12:37:17Z shka: you can get it running in no time
2017-02-14T12:38:05Z shka: it is also quite fast as long as you don't have sick number of requests per second
2017-02-14T12:38:30Z shka: but it won't scale to second facebook :-)
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2017-02-14T12:39:24Z shka: as for database, probably postgres with speedy cache (like Reddis) is way to go
2017-02-14T12:39:44Z shka: but you won't need Reddis to start
2017-02-14T12:39:55Z shka: so you can just stick to postgres
2017-02-14T12:40:26Z afidegnum: well, from start, i m using graph databases
2017-02-14T12:40:30Z shaftoe: i've been learning postmodern package the last few days
2017-02-14T12:40:31Z shka: ok, ok
2017-02-14T12:40:35Z shaftoe: it's pretty neat
2017-02-14T12:40:41Z afidegnum: neo4j or arangodb
2017-02-14T12:40:44Z shka: i see
2017-02-14T12:41:05Z afidegnum: i have researched on related graphdb for CL which is pretty promising
2017-02-14T12:41:12Z shka: well, i can't really suggest anything here
2017-02-14T12:41:23Z shka: there is one open source database
2017-02-14T12:41:28Z shka: it uses mmap files
2017-02-14T12:41:36Z afidegnum: oh, ok
2017-02-14T12:41:53Z shka: code looks reasonable well but i have no idea how well it works in practice
2017-02-14T12:42:01Z shaftoe: err... is "slot" a reserved keyword ?
2017-02-14T12:42:12Z shka: shaftoe: i don't think so
2017-02-14T12:42:19Z shaftoe: let's see if sbcl complains
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2017-02-14T12:45:37Z ogamita: shaftoe: there's no reserved keyword.
2017-02-14T12:45:55Z ogamita: shaftoe: there are rules on the symbols in the CL package. cf. chapter 11.2.1.1
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2017-02-14T14:34:18Z phoe_: aw holy hell
2017-02-14T14:34:19Z phoe_: clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_b_1_b.htm
2017-02-14T14:34:24Z phoe_: this is so ugly
2017-02-14T14:34:27Z phoe_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_b_1_b.htm
2017-02-14T14:34:41Z phoe_: literally? constant variables!?
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2017-02-14T14:37:37Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3250222105960910%40naggum.no.html is my favorite resource on the topic.
2017-02-14T14:37:56Z loke___: phoe: Yes. I have no idea why it's defined that way
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2017-02-14T14:40:20Z Xach: loke___: that article gives some history
2017-02-14T14:41:11Z loke___: That doesn't explain why they are defined as constants to a single BOOLE function.
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2017-02-14T14:41:38Z malice`: lol
2017-02-14T14:42:30Z Xach: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3250122499743574%40naggum.no.html has more
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2017-02-14T14:43:00Z jackdaniel: "Burning any given number of symbols in the `common-lisp´ package is
2017-02-14T14:43:01Z jackdaniel:   not a design goal, though."
2017-02-14T14:43:03Z jackdaniel: heheh
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2017-02-14T14:46:02Z loke___: I do play around with Maclisp on PDP10 sometimes (on an emulator, of course).
2017-02-14T14:46:18Z loke___: I should take a deeper look at what's going on with BOOLE there.
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2017-02-14T14:47:47Z phoe_: Xach: wow, thanks
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2017-02-14T14:49:06Z Xach: I like the point (made also by Peter Seibel in his ILC talk) that people on the standardization process didn't make decisions because they didn't know any better -- they argued over every little thing and chose a path forward. Hindsight may make it look like a bad decision, but it wasn't an uninformed or casual decision.
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2017-02-14T14:50:13Z loke___: Xach: Speaking of that, has PS been here lately?
2017-02-14T14:50:27Z loke___: I haven't seen him in a while.
2017-02-14T14:50:28Z Xach: loke___: Nope. wouldn't expect it...he is busy busy at twitter doing not-lisp
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2017-02-14T14:50:43Z loke___: He worls for twitter?
2017-02-14T14:51:11Z Xach: Yes.
2017-02-14T14:51:14Z Xach: For a long time now.
2017-02-14T14:51:25Z loke___: I see
2017-02-14T14:51:51Z loke___: I woner what he does. In fact, I wonder what any engineer at twitter does...
2017-02-14T14:52:05Z loke___: They have so many people, for something that shouldn't take more than a haldful of people to run
2017-02-14T14:52:07Z loke___: handful.
2017-02-14T14:52:22Z Xach: He works on abuse prevention
2017-02-14T14:53:27Z loke___: OK
2017-02-14T14:53:46Z loke___: I don't use twitter, so I'm not sure I know what that entails.
2017-02-14T14:54:06Z dlowe: You're not seeing the iceberg :)
2017-02-14T14:54:15Z loke___: Probably.
2017-02-14T14:54:27Z loke___: I'm wondering what a lot of people at my workplace are doing too.
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2017-02-14T14:54:39Z dlowe: talking on IRC
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2017-02-14T14:54:56Z loke___: No, I'm one of the few people who do that at work.
2017-02-14T14:55:13Z loke___: Although, right now I'm at home. Time to go to sleep soon.
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2017-02-14T15:30:47Z phoe_: I really like editing the dictionary for the Numbers chapter
2017-02-14T15:31:03Z phoe_: Even more obscure functions I've never used yet
2017-02-14T15:31:20Z malice`: phoe_: like?
2017-02-14T15:33:00Z phoe_: clhs ldb-test
2017-02-14T15:33:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb_te.htm
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2017-02-14T15:34:20Z phoe_: * (rationalize 'war-in-syria)
2017-02-14T15:34:22Z phoe_: Error: The value WAR-IN-SYRIA is not of type REAL.
2017-02-14T15:34:33Z phoe_: is this god damn compiler in denial or what
2017-02-14T15:34:39Z phoe_: how is war in Syria not real
2017-02-14T15:35:11Z phoe_: is this the best rationalization this thing can do
2017-02-14T15:35:24Z phoe_: but, er
2017-02-14T15:35:27Z phoe_: malice`: #'rationalize
2017-02-14T15:35:42Z phoe_: I've had no idea that Lisp has two functions to convert reals into rationals
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2017-02-14T15:36:49Z Xach: phoe_: I liked reading through cltl2 for that reason - not all of it stuck, but I had at least seen everything once.
2017-02-14T15:37:11Z Xach: If you are actually touching every page with some work, it seems even more likely to stick
2017-02-14T15:37:35Z malice`: (rationalize (+ 0.3 0.6)) => still not 9/10 :/
2017-02-14T15:37:53Z Xach: (and i went with cltl2 because I enjoyed the physical book)
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2017-02-14T15:39:38Z phoe_: Xach: yes, I've been reading CLtL2 a little bit as well
2017-02-14T15:39:45Z phoe_: and now I'm obviously tweaking the spec
2017-02-14T15:40:06Z phoe_: so a lot of things stick, and I'm at least becoming aware of what is present in standard Common Lisp.
2017-02-14T15:40:14Z phoe_: this is the best tour ever
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2017-02-14T15:48:01Z shka: it's just me or CLtL2 is actually easier to understand than hyperspec?
2017-02-14T15:48:21Z Xach: shka: the prose of cltl2 is less dry. there is a bit of humor and playfulness. there is also less precision.
2017-02-14T15:48:37Z shka: hmmm i guess so
2017-02-14T15:48:51Z shka: at the very least it less more pleasant to read
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2017-02-14T15:52:17Z phoe_: shka: in a way, it was meant to be easier to understand
2017-02-14T15:52:33Z phoe_: it's a book - meant to be less formal than a specification from the very beginning
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2017-02-14T16:05:23Z PuercoPop: was there a way to indent deffoo and define-foo forms appropriately with slime or am I mis-remembering?
2017-02-14T16:05:54Z ogamita: PuercoPop: just ensure that the macros are defined in the inferior lisp; then slime will catch up the right indenting.
2017-02-14T16:06:13Z Xach: PuercoPop: it often works properly if you use &body in a normal way
2017-02-14T16:06:22Z phoe_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_comp_2.htm
2017-02-14T16:06:36Z phoe_: "In the case of complexes, the type-specifier must..."
2017-02-14T16:06:42Z phoe_: type-specifier?
2017-02-14T16:06:45Z PuercoPop: ogamita: that was what I remembered, but it is not happening. With body, which is what I was using initially the indentation was even weirder
2017-02-14T16:06:48Z phoe_: it's an unbound variable here.
2017-02-14T16:07:08Z phoe_: Even inside the TeX sources, there is, \reviewer{Barmar: What type specifier?}
2017-02-14T16:08:23Z phoe_: "Two disjoint types can be upgraded into the same thing."
2017-02-14T16:08:30Z phoe_: "thing" is not a formal word.
2017-02-14T16:08:40Z phoe_: This sentence looks so heavily out of context there.
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2017-02-14T16:12:24Z phoe_: Should I even touch this part of the specification or leave a TODO for later?
2017-02-14T16:12:55Z malice`: finger complex
2017-02-14T16:14:32Z Bike: phoe_: type specifiers are defined in chapter four
2017-02-14T16:15:19Z Bike: upgrading is notoriously confusing though
2017-02-14T16:19:38Z phoe_: Bike: I know they are defined in chapter four
2017-02-14T16:19:58Z phoe_: but the variable "type-specifier" is not mentioned on that page.
2017-02-14T16:20:37Z phoe_: If I'm thinking what you're thinking, then, why is this mentioned in the dictionary and not in the concepts?
2017-02-14T16:20:56Z Bike: oh uh... maybe t hat paragraph was copied out of u-c-p-t by accident
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2017-02-14T16:21:42Z Bike: it says upgraded-complex-element-type instead of -part-type too
2017-02-14T16:21:52Z phoe_: lemme see
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2017-02-14T16:21:58Z Bike: so that might just be a messup
2017-02-14T16:22:20Z phoe_: yes - it looks like it
2017-02-14T16:22:27Z phoe_: u-c-p-t mentions a typespec
2017-02-14T16:22:42Z phoe_: but I'm not copypasting this into there without some external approval.
2017-02-14T16:22:56Z phoe_: clhs upgraded-complex-part-type
2017-02-14T16:22:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upgrad.htm
2017-02-14T16:22:58Z phoe_: clhs complex
2017-02-14T16:22:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_comple.htm
2017-02-14T16:23:03Z phoe_: ↑
2017-02-14T16:23:31Z Bike: it's similar to the third paragraph of 15.1.2.1
2017-02-14T16:23:43Z phoe_: ...wait, no, it doesn't make sense in the context of u-c-p-t.
2017-02-14T16:24:31Z Bike: there doesn't seem to be any discussion of u-c-p-t in the chapter twelve content, weird
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2017-02-14T16:27:59Z phoe_: I'm leaving it as it is.
2017-02-14T16:28:19Z Bike: [editor's note: wtf]
2017-02-14T16:28:27Z phoe_: Yes, exactly.
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2017-02-14T16:41:00Z shka: hey lispers!
2017-02-14T16:41:27Z shka: how in the lisp inspector i get currently inspected object to eval?
2017-02-14T16:41:41Z shka: i can't find it in the manual
2017-02-14T16:42:00Z shka: s/lisp inspector/slime inspector
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2017-02-14T16:42:31Z Xach: I use M-RET to copy it to the repl
2017-02-14T16:42:51Z shka: hm, let me check what that does
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2017-02-14T16:43:19Z Xach: it copies the inspected object at point to the repl.
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2017-02-14T16:44:17Z shka: that is nice, but not exactly what i want
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2017-02-14T16:44:27Z Xach: Ok
2017-02-14T16:44:41Z shka: because it is from fancy trace, and not from sldb
2017-02-14T16:45:29Z Xach: I use it in both the inspector and sldb.
2017-02-14T16:45:36Z Xach: What is fancy trace?
2017-02-14T16:45:52Z shka: well, trace dialog
2017-02-14T16:46:09Z shka: you know how it works, right?
2017-02-14T16:46:41Z shka: it will sound stupid but i know just realized, i can actually inspect arguments in slime dialog
2017-02-14T16:46:48Z shka: *i now
2017-02-14T16:47:04Z shka: *trace dialog
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2017-02-14T16:47:19Z shka: and i can't write :-|
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2017-02-14T16:53:45Z mrottenkolber: can anyone recommend an XML parsing library that properly handles character encodings (including BOM)?
2017-02-14T16:54:09Z mrottenkolber: I use XMLS which is nice, but is character encoding unaware
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2017-02-14T16:54:48Z shka: Xach: i figured this out!
2017-02-14T16:55:07Z shka: you can just use * after entering object
2017-02-14T16:55:13Z Xach: shka: Oh, yes.
2017-02-14T16:55:18Z shka is so happy
2017-02-14T16:55:20Z drmeister: Let's say I had a single threaded Common Lisp implementation and I wanted to run an open-gl/glut application and have a REPL running at the same time.
2017-02-14T16:55:22Z shka: :-)
2017-02-14T16:55:23Z drmeister: How would I do that?
2017-02-14T16:55:46Z shka: drmeister: do you happen to have event loop?
2017-02-14T16:55:53Z shka: perhaps green threads?
2017-02-14T16:56:07Z drmeister: serve-event?  select?  Gather key presses into strings, handle backspace and feed the strings to the reader and EVAL?
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2017-02-14T16:56:13Z drmeister: No green threads
2017-02-14T16:56:17Z shka: ok
2017-02-14T16:56:19Z drmeister: There is an event loop
2017-02-14T16:56:35Z drmeister: I get key presses and mouse events and whatnot.
2017-02-14T16:56:36Z shka: well, can't we plug both glut and slime into event-loop?
2017-02-14T16:56:53Z shka: somehow?
2017-02-14T16:56:54Z drmeister: Ohh, that would be the best.  How?
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2017-02-14T16:57:04Z shka: i have no idea :D
2017-02-14T16:57:51Z shka: perhaps guys at #lispgames would have a better understanding of how this works
2017-02-14T16:58:20Z drmeister: Thank you.
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2017-02-14T16:59:40Z shka: but this kinda looks like you would have to implement your own event loop on top of existing one
2017-02-14T17:00:00Z shka: and that starts to be complicated
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2017-02-14T17:02:47Z drmeister: I eat completely for breakfast
2017-02-14T17:03:03Z Xach: Part of this complicated breakfast.
2017-02-14T17:03:04Z drmeister: Complexity damnit
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2017-02-14T17:17:32Z nirved: drmeister: look at cepl
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2017-02-14T17:22:58Z phoe_: d'oh
2017-02-14T17:23:05Z phoe_: this chapter is coming to and end quicker than I thought
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2017-02-14T17:27:25Z Xach: soon the entire book will be over, and you get to start on Guy Steele and the Chamber of Secrets
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2017-02-14T17:32:08Z phoe_: waaah
2017-02-14T17:32:14Z AJavaIdiot: 50 shades of macros
2017-02-14T17:32:55Z phoe_: 50 types of Gray streams
2017-02-14T17:33:03Z Xach: heh
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2017-02-14T17:37:00Z drmeister: nirved: thanks - cepl?
2017-02-14T17:37:42Z drmeister: I see it - thanks
2017-02-14T17:38:09Z phoe_: drmeister: https://github.com/cbaggers/cepl
2017-02-14T17:38:40Z drmeister: Does it need threads? It's not a listed dependency
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2017-02-14T17:39:36Z phoe_: drmeister: if it means anything, I can't find "bordeaux" or "bt" in the codebase
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2017-02-14T17:40:23Z drmeister: Thanks phoe_
2017-02-14T17:40:38Z phoe_: so either it's not using threads
2017-02-14T17:40:48Z phoe_: or it's non-conforming to community standards ;D
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2017-02-14T17:41:03Z Bike: or it depends transitively
2017-02-14T17:41:08Z phoe_: damn.
2017-02-14T17:41:14Z phoe_: correct.
2017-02-14T17:41:18Z phoe_: I didn't think of that.
2017-02-14T17:42:19Z Bike: doesn't look like it does so however
2017-02-14T17:42:38Z phoe_: drmeister: let me load the listed dependencies to check
2017-02-14T17:42:52Z phoe_: well, shit
2017-02-14T17:43:17Z Bike: however, in the readme it says the actual event system is another dependency called skitter
2017-02-14T17:43:32Z phoe_: https://github.com/edicl/cl-fad/blob/master/cl-fad.asd#L43
2017-02-14T17:43:44Z phoe_: I'd never have expected that cl-fad *might* have a threading dependency
2017-02-14T17:43:46Z Bike: why the heck
2017-02-14T17:43:49Z phoe_: wtf
2017-02-14T17:43:50Z phoe_: right
2017-02-14T17:44:00Z Bike: locks for temporary files or something, i guess
2017-02-14T17:44:21Z Bike: yep nailed it.
2017-02-14T17:45:13Z phoe_: well
2017-02-14T17:45:26Z phoe_: drmeister: in the weirdest way, it depends transitively on bordeaux-threads
2017-02-14T17:48:33Z TruePika: quick question, is there a way to check the current declarations?
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2017-02-14T17:48:46Z TruePika: (e.g. as set by PROCLAIM/DECLAIM/DECLARE)
2017-02-14T17:49:21Z TruePika: I can't seem to find anything in my local CLHS
2017-02-14T17:49:42Z TruePika: (and I'm minimizing web exposure ATM since I'm on a metered connection)
2017-02-14T17:50:08Z phoe_: TruePika: AFAIK only implementation-defined ways if any
2017-02-14T17:50:10Z TruePika: (laptop + phone + PuTTY + SSH = IRC from anywhere :D)
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2017-02-14T17:50:18Z TruePika: meh
2017-02-14T17:50:28Z phoe_: but I doubt.
2017-02-14T17:50:28Z TruePika: and I don't have a copy of CCL docs
2017-02-14T17:50:36Z phoe_:  /join #ccl
2017-02-14T17:51:06Z TruePika: cba, not that important right now, was mainly curious
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2017-02-14T18:03:23Z Bike: there's a semi portable way of doing it, since it was in cltl2
2017-02-14T18:05:04Z phoe_: that feel when the Lisp spec turns into a book on higher mathematics
2017-02-14T18:05:05Z phoe_: https://i.imgtc.com/FxV0Pq5.png
2017-02-14T18:05:12Z phoe_: I completely did not expect that
2017-02-14T18:05:23Z phoe_: 10/10, X3J13
2017-02-14T18:05:30Z Bike: it's based on APL
2017-02-14T18:05:55Z Bike: also pretty much the only way to do it that makes any sense. good thing complex analysis isn't that hard
2017-02-14T18:06:35Z phoe_: but it's complex
2017-02-14T18:06:43Z phoe_ mic drop
2017-02-14T18:06:54Z Bike: that is exactly why i usually say "complicated" instead now
2017-02-14T18:08:03Z Bike: also, the sound guy wants to talk to you about the mic expenses, and she has a sledgehammer
2017-02-14T18:09:51Z phoe_: Bike: it gets even better
2017-02-14T18:09:52Z phoe_: https://i.imgtc.com/EoqpYAL.png
2017-02-14T18:10:00Z phoe_: geez
2017-02-14T18:10:11Z phoe_: I wanted to translate Lisp spec and not end up back in mathematics
2017-02-14T18:10:19Z Bike: it's really nothing very difficult.
2017-02-14T18:10:55Z phoe_: yes, I know, I've been learning about that recently
2017-02-14T18:11:09Z phoe_: but really, these two pages are literally pulled out of a math book.
2017-02-14T18:11:15Z phoe_: I didn't expect that.
2017-02-14T18:11:22Z Bike: though i think it's funny that (atan 0 0) is only defined if you have negative zero, which exists for entirely unrelated reasons as far as i understand.
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2017-02-14T18:13:23Z Bike: phoe_: like i mentioned, this is based on "Principal Values and Branch Cuts in Complex APL" as mentioned in the clhs bibliography (yeah there is one! weird), and later there was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_10967
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2017-02-14T18:14:44Z phoe_: Bike: woah
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2017-02-14T19:17:46Z knobo: Does anyone know/use autolisp?
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2017-02-14T19:18:11Z NANDgate: hello is there a beginner CL channel?
2017-02-14T19:18:29Z travv0: NANDgate: #clnoobs
2017-02-14T19:18:58Z NANDgate: travv0: sounds just my speed thanks
2017-02-14T19:19:14Z travv0: no problem
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2017-02-14T19:20:56Z Xach: This channel is also fine for beginner questions.
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2017-02-14T19:30:10Z pjb: knobo: not here, since freenode is for free(dom) software, not commercial software support.  However, if you have a general lisp question, you may ask it on ##lisp (#lisp is for Common Lisp).
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2017-02-14T19:58:34Z drmeister: Idle thing works great
2017-02-14T20:00:05Z phoe: drmeister: hm?
2017-02-14T20:00:25Z White_Flame: cool
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2017-02-14T20:21:17Z drmeister: Using the glut:idle event to drive slime event processing.  It lets me open a glut window and have it receive graphics events while still processing slime events with single threaded clasp.
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2017-02-14T20:25:31Z phoe: drmeister: yay!
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2017-02-14T20:43:48Z drmeister: Xach: Your progress bars in quicklisp are really nice, they advance pretty smoothly, they all stop at the same column.  Nice.
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2017-02-14T20:44:06Z Xach: drmeister: they are busted on lispworks :~(
2017-02-14T20:44:14Z Xach: some process in LW spits out spurious newlines
2017-02-14T20:44:20Z Xach: this is for compilation, not fetching
2017-02-14T20:44:44Z drmeister: Well, they work nicely in Clasp.
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2017-02-14T20:45:10Z drmeister notes there's a lot of math in good progress bars
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2017-02-14T20:45:54Z drmeister acknowledges that he may overthink things.
2017-02-14T20:48:58Z Xach: drmeister: i had some practice, one of the first programs I ever wrote had a progress bar that flickered too much.
2017-02-14T20:50:21Z phoe: I should have chapter Numbers ready by tomorrow.
2017-02-14T20:50:53Z Xach: on to Deuteronomy
2017-02-14T20:51:06Z aeth: phoe is rewriting the Bible?
2017-02-14T20:51:14Z aeth: in Lisp?
2017-02-14T20:51:16Z phoe: Xach: asogfuaeogihgjdf
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2017-02-14T21:14:32Z phoe: haha.
2017-02-14T21:14:45Z phoe: on the page for system class FLOAT
2017-02-14T21:14:47Z phoe: \reviewer{Barmar: What about IEEE NaNs and infinities?}
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2017-02-14T21:40:40Z phoe: minion: memo for Fare: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339141
2017-02-14T21:40:41Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-14T21:40:52Z phoe: minion: memo for Fare: is this intentional?
2017-02-14T21:40:52Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-14T21:44:10Z nyingen: Learning the condition system in CL is like learning monads in Haskell. Maybe the 10th article I read will finally make me get it
2017-02-14T21:44:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyingen: have you read practical common lisp?
2017-02-14T21:44:43Z nyingen: fiddlerwoaroof: Oh yes
2017-02-14T21:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: what's the difficulty you're having/
2017-02-14T21:44:58Z nyingen: there is an SO question that starts out "So I've read the conditions chapter of PCL 10 times and I still don't quite get this..."
2017-02-14T21:45:27Z ebrasca: hi phoe
2017-02-14T21:45:39Z nyingen: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't have a specific problem right now, just trying to learn how handler-case, restart-case, handler-bind etc all play together. It's very different from other languages, including Haskell which is my main language these days
2017-02-14T21:45:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: nyingen: That's sort of odd because, although restarts are unusual, the conditions handler-case/handler-bind thing is very similar to exceptions in other languages
2017-02-14T21:46:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: (at least, other "normal" languages)
2017-02-14T21:46:51Z nyingen: yeah, that part is fairly straightforward
2017-02-14T21:46:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: handler-case works like try...except... handler-bind only differs in that the stack isn't unwound
2017-02-14T21:47:07Z Xach: "only"!
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2017-02-14T21:47:35Z phoe: handler-bind is fairly simple
2017-02-14T21:47:36Z nyingen: fiddlerwoaroof: I just need to play with it more I guess
2017-02-14T21:47:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: restart-case binds a "restart" which is a chunk of code that can be invoked by anything inside of its execution context
2017-02-14T21:47:41Z phoe: you have a (signal ...) call, right
2017-02-14T21:47:55Z phoe: whenever you have a handler-bind bound to a particular condition
2017-02-14T21:48:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Usually, you use restart-case to bind a restart and then handler-bind/handler-case to invoke it
2017-02-14T21:48:19Z phoe: every time you signal that condition, you execute a function in that exact place of the code.
2017-02-14T21:48:34Z phoe: and the execution continues.
2017-02-14T21:48:55Z phoe: so whenever you (signal e), you actually go (handler e).
2017-02-14T21:48:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: This way, you can have your simple functions signal conditions, your more complicated functions define possible ways to handle failure and your toplevel functions coordinate all of it.
2017-02-14T21:49:02Z nyingen: yeah, I sort of get that. It's more the use of handler-bind/restart-case that I found a bit confusing. Not sure where the various bits of code go
2017-02-14T21:50:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: (defun bar (restart-case (foo) (the-restart () ...))) and then, in the function that calls bar, (handler-bind ((error (lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'the-restart)))) (bar))
2017-02-14T21:50:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: (I think, haven't actually run that...)
2017-02-14T21:55:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here's what the code usually looks like: http://paste.lisp.org/+79OM
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2017-02-14T22:54:56Z phoe: clhs most-positive-fixnum
2017-02-14T22:54:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_most_p.htm
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2017-02-14T22:57:32Z _death: (define-symbol-macro most-positive-bignum (let ((i most-positive-fixnum)) (handler-case (loop (incf i)) (t i))))
2017-02-14T22:58:26Z phoe: _death: ...
2017-02-14T23:01:16Z |3b|: probably should calculate it in advance, might not get the same answer if you wait until other code/data is loaded :p
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2017-02-14T23:13:42Z _death: it's part of my new CL-based language, CatLisp, a language for curious cats
2017-02-14T23:15:30Z _death: instead of curiosity killing cats, it should now kills lisps
2017-02-14T23:15:38Z _death: *kill
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2017-02-14T23:21:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Weird, (* * *) eventually starts cycling on sbcl
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2017-02-14T23:21:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: nevermind.
2017-02-14T23:22:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: My command history was doing weird things.
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2017-02-14T23:34:26Z nyingen: fiddlerwoaroof: hey, sorry i disappeared earlier; i got called away. I'm now looking at your paste
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2017-02-14T23:36:26Z nyingen: I spent many terrible years working with massive codebases in one of the worst languages ever invented, and exception handling was a huge problem. So CL's condition system is very exciting to me
2017-02-14T23:36:57Z nyingen: I've done a few hobby projects in CL but havent' made much use of the condition system so far
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2017-02-15T00:36:46Z PuercoPop: is there any reason why map nil is a preferred idiom to mapc (or is it even?) I don't want to be needlessly obstructionist in a PR review
2017-02-15T00:38:33Z |3b|: map nil works on any sequence
2017-02-15T00:38:45Z Zhivago: Also map nil returns nil.
2017-02-15T00:38:47Z |3b|: (which may or may not be a reason to prefer it)
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2017-02-15T00:39:32Z Zhivago: And mapc is another random variation to remember in order to help stupid implementations be slightly more efficient.
2017-02-15T00:40:04Z PuercoPop: well, the person already used mapc (which I had to look up as I only use mapcar and map ^_^
2017-02-15T00:40:34Z Zhivago: Do they use the result of mapc?
2017-02-15T00:40:57Z |3b|: if you are the maintainer, that sounds like enough reason to comment :)
2017-02-15T00:41:01Z aeth: I only know mapc because of Emacs
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2017-02-15T00:41:54Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: no
2017-02-15T00:41:59Z _death: mapc can be more specific than map nil.. sometimes specifity has value
2017-02-15T00:41:59Z PuercoPop: its for the side effects
2017-02-15T00:42:10Z jasom: nyingen: yeah CL's condition system is so much better than pretty much all other languages; I'm surprised it hasn't been stolen by one of the modern dynamic languages
2017-02-15T00:42:14Z Zhivago: Then I'd prefer map nil.
2017-02-15T00:42:16Z PuercoPop: _death: communication intent is beter
2017-02-15T00:42:23Z PuercoPop: map nil communicates intent
2017-02-15T00:42:35Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: for some reason I assumed mapc returned nil as well
2017-02-15T00:42:40Z _death: PuercoPop: intent is what I'm talking about..
2017-02-15T00:42:54Z Zhivago: jason: Separating signals and non-local transfer has some benefits, but also some degenerate edge-cases.
2017-02-15T00:43:49Z jasom: Zhivago: some languages have a compromise solution, where the exception object includes the some information about stack-frame where it was signaled.
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2017-02-15T00:44:14Z jasom: Zhivago: but that seems crazy complicated compared to just executing the handler in said stack-frame.
2017-02-15T00:44:23Z PuercoPop: _death: care to elaborate? mapc returns the first list it was passed. (map nil ...) returns nil so it is clearly only used for the side-effects
2017-02-15T00:45:02Z Zhivago: jasom: It does, providing you have unlimited resources available to handle it, which is a problem when your condition is related to resource exhaustion.
2017-02-15T00:45:55Z _death: PuercoPop: compare the text describing MAPC and the text describing MAP
2017-02-15T00:46:21Z Zhivago: jasom: I'm not saying that's a critical issue (there are ways around it), but it's a justification.
2017-02-15T00:47:24Z Zhivago: jasom: The other thing to point out is that in its usual handler-case mode, it's equivalent to those other systems anyhow -- which may indicate that there's minimal benefit from that approach.
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2017-02-15T00:49:13Z sukaeto: I always use mapc when I'm dealing with lists
2017-02-15T00:49:24Z sukaeto: if the habits of a random, disconnected idiot are at all useful as a data point
2017-02-15T00:49:36Z _death: PuercoPop: I am suggesting that views may differ as to which one to prefer in certain circumstances.  you can find an elaboration on this attitude in Tutorial on Good Lisp Programming Style
2017-02-15T00:49:48Z Zhivago: It probably predicts purchase habits in some sector.
2017-02-15T00:50:46Z PuercoPop: _death: I think that stating the nil is the return type is more clear that what the clhs says on the function in general. But Thanks for the input. I'll be sure to look that up
2017-02-15T00:51:22Z jasom: Zhivago: I take away the opposite from the existence of handler-case; everywhere you see handler-bind used, the author probably couldn't have accomplished the same with handler-case
2017-02-15T00:51:43Z _death: PuercoPop: if it's important that NIL be returned, perhaps it's a good idea to be explicit about it
2017-02-15T00:55:16Z _death: PuercoPop: though MAPC returns the first list, the association I have with it (and expect others to have) is that it's used for side-effecting code
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2017-02-15T01:01:34Z Xach: _death: that is how ye olde timers use it
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2017-02-15T01:04:50Z jasom: Clearly one should use (map 'list (lambda (x) (prog1 x ...))) rather than mapc
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2017-02-15T01:14:01Z aeth: oh, that's why it's called progn
2017-02-15T01:14:09Z aeth: because it's the n version of 1
2017-02-15T01:15:08Z aeth: now the real question is what do I do if I want prog3
2017-02-15T01:15:38Z |3b|: make it yourself or use N :p
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2017-02-15T01:26:18Z _death: Xach: I think you're more olde tyme than me ;)
2017-02-15T01:26:27Z myrkraverk: I'm doing some simple networking, and using sb-bsd-sockets for it.  Do I need to explicitly (for any reason) close the stream?  Or is it enough to close the socket?
2017-02-15T01:26:55Z Xach: _death: my eyes were opened by True MIT Graybeards on a project a few years ago
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2017-02-15T01:27:07Z Xach: i am a little tiny baby
2017-02-15T01:27:14Z myrkraverk: Right now, I'm not closing the stream explicitly from sb-bsd-sockets:socket-make-stream; only the corresponding socket with socket-close.
2017-02-15T01:30:01Z _death: Xach: I think I started in 2005/6..
2017-02-15T01:33:38Z _death: (PCL was dead sexy by then..)
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2017-02-15T01:44:13Z shaftoe: myrkraverk: try it several times then check netstat/lsof to see if conns are still open :P
2017-02-15T01:44:41Z myrkraverk: shaftoe: hmm, good point c;
2017-02-15T01:44:57Z myrkraverk: But I'm not there just yet c;
2017-02-15T01:47:31Z shaftoe: i like defer from Go... it would be nice to have (defer (close socket)) macro
2017-02-15T01:48:48Z myrkraverk: Hmm, yes.
2017-02-15T01:49:00Z myrkraverk: I've actually been testing cl+ssl a little bit.
2017-02-15T01:49:23Z myrkraverk: And I'm unsure about one point; how do I know I'm not getting hit by a SYN attack?
2017-02-15T01:49:59Z myrkraverk: As in, when the protocol doesn't specify the length of the payload, how does cl+ssl verify proper termination?
2017-02-15T01:51:14Z myrkraverk: Err, I mean FIN attack.
2017-02-15T01:52:03Z myrkraverk: With NSS I can do that with PR_Shutdown and PR_close on the resulting socket.
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2017-02-15T02:00:32Z myrkraverk: I guess the problem is I don't know how OpenSSL does that, for which cl+ssl is a thin wrapper.
2017-02-15T02:05:02Z shaftoe: i haven't dug that far into how ssl is handled
2017-02-15T02:05:39Z shaftoe: i'd be very happy if there were libressl wrappers, i'm wondering if existing cl-ssl could simply be pointed at the different lib
2017-02-15T02:09:01Z _death: shaftoe: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/7fGYrj4RBrI/AFnwfCEWtmQJ
2017-02-15T02:10:47Z shaftoe: wow, good memory to dig that up from 10 years back
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2017-02-15T02:12:22Z _death: I wrote it, so I should know
2017-02-15T02:13:29Z shaftoe: bookmarked
2017-02-15T02:13:32Z shaftoe: thanks
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2017-02-15T02:20:14Z _death: np bobby ;).. time to sleep
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2017-02-15T04:05:10Z pillton: Oh damn. Gary Byers is unwell. All the best Gary.
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2017-02-15T04:21:09Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-15T05:17:19Z PuercoPop: Quadrescence: Btw, I've sent you an email to your symbol1cs address. I hope you don't mind the 'cold emailing'
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2017-02-15T09:29:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: beach: https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/02/new-aslr-busting-javascript-is-about-to-make-drive-by-exploits-much-nastier/
2017-02-15T09:29:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: When I saw this, it reminded me of the various things you've said about ASLR here
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2017-02-15T09:43:44Z beach: Wow, nice!
2017-02-15T09:44:08Z beach: Thanks for sharing that link.
2017-02-15T09:44:17Z myrkraverk: are those sayings online in a blog form, or just here on IRC?
2017-02-15T09:44:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Here and there in the logs, mostly.
2017-02-15T09:44:52Z beach: myrkraverk: I don't think I wrote them down.
2017-02-15T09:45:12Z myrkraverk: Ok.
2017-02-15T09:45:20Z beach: myrkraverk: But they would fit right into this document: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
2017-02-15T09:45:33Z myrkraverk: Ok, that's on my reading list now.
2017-02-15T09:45:39Z beach: ... so maybe I will write them down some day.
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2017-02-15T09:46:51Z myrkraverk: I hope I'll get to read it c;
2017-02-15T09:47:04Z beach: I might have to be reminded.
2017-02-15T09:49:40Z myrkraverk: Oh, no worries, I'll prod you for it in 2037 or something c;
2017-02-15T09:51:04Z beach: My remaining life expectancy is less than that, so you might want to rethink.
2017-02-15T09:51:44Z flip214_: beach: oh, really? you didn't look that old on the website.
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2017-02-15T09:51:57Z beach: Must be an old picture.
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2017-02-15T09:54:37Z beach: But I'll get around to it before that, so don't worry.
2017-02-15T09:55:41Z flip214_: 2037 is 20 years away... and in the EU life expectancy is ~90 if you're 70 years already, isn't it?
2017-02-15T09:55:52Z beach: Oh, OK.
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2017-02-15T09:56:19Z beach: Yes, then put 2037 in your calendar.
2017-02-15T09:57:13Z flip214_: as if the same product would still be available then... data migrations, bit rot, provider switching, device being upgraded, ...
2017-02-15T09:57:37Z myrkraverk: There's also the bus factor; don't forget the bus factor.
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2017-02-15T09:58:41Z rk[ghost]: wall beep | at 2037-01-01
2017-02-15T09:59:04Z beach: I am pretty motivated to make progress on this stuff.  I find myself not wanting to update my software because then I have to restart, be it Firefox or the entire operating system.  I mean, seriously?  In this day and age?
2017-02-15T09:59:13Z myrkraverk: flip214_: we're assuming ASLR will still be a thing in 20 years? It's quite possible it still is.
2017-02-15T09:59:50Z rk[ghost]: i concur.. i think microkernels might be a good solution.. we should update our systems like dolphins.. sleeping left brain and right brain seperatly..
2017-02-15T10:00:42Z beach: rk[ghost]: How do you define "microkernel" and what is good about it?
2017-02-15T10:01:32Z beach: rk[ghost]: In particular, how does it avoid my having to close down the system and all my applications when I update it?
2017-02-15T10:01:36Z myrkraverk: I'm not eve sure microkernels are at all relevant when it comes to security and exploits.
2017-02-15T10:01:59Z flip214_: A microkernel is the linux kernel running in the harddisks' drive controller, the GPU, the ACPI controller, etc., all of which communicate across the system busses to each other ;)
2017-02-15T10:02:27Z flip214_: beach: you don't have to reboot, anyway. "live patching" in suse, similar thing (with different name) in rhel, ...
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2017-02-15T10:03:43Z beach: I should definitely read up on how that works so that I can have an opinion about it.
2017-02-15T10:04:30Z beach: Not today though.  I will have lunch with my favorite co-author and then we will work all afternoon.
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2017-02-15T10:06:28Z beach: Can I assume that if Firefox runs on Suse, I don't need to restart it when I update it?  Or does this feature work only for the kernel, so that every application would have to be written differently to take advantage of it?
2017-02-15T10:06:34Z rk[ghost]: beach: well.. from my understanding, microkernels (though i haven't set up anything like gnuherd yet) break down the kernel in to submodules. i would imagine this would allow one to update specific parts of system.. for example a part of the kernel without effecting the others.
2017-02-15T10:07:03Z flip214_: beach: live patching is kernel-only.
2017-02-15T10:07:15Z beach: I see.
2017-02-15T10:07:23Z flip214_: but FF can save all the tabs, so apart from forms that are being filled in during the restart you shouldn't lose anything.
2017-02-15T10:07:25Z rk[ghost]: i wish firefox followed the paradigm of chrome, as to have each tab be its own process
2017-02-15T10:07:35Z iago: flip214_: rhel system is called kpatch
2017-02-15T10:07:47Z rk[ghost]: i think if you followed that paradigm, you could have each tab be restarted separately upon an update
2017-02-15T10:08:01Z rk[ghost]: so then, you wouldn't need to have the whole of firefox go down
2017-02-15T10:08:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: does kpatch actually work? from what I can read it doesn't work very reliably.
2017-02-15T10:08:35Z flip214_: rk[ghost]: a ff restart with ~12 tabs takes about 3 seconds for me.
2017-02-15T10:08:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: But my information might be old...
2017-02-15T10:08:42Z flip214_: why take the complexity hit?
2017-02-15T10:08:47Z beach: rk[ghost]: I yes, I see, you replace the one user-space process that needs to be updated.  Of course, to make that work in general, you would need a separate process for every tiny little task.
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2017-02-15T10:09:09Z flip214_: https://www.suse.com/de-de/products/live-patching/
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2017-02-15T10:09:20Z flip214_: oh sorry, that's the german link
2017-02-15T10:09:25Z rk[ghost]: right, i find it a seemingly more useful approach..
2017-02-15T10:09:56Z rk[ghost]: flip214_: aye, understandable.. i am running on an ARM laptop.. so the system could use any help possible
2017-02-15T10:10:10Z beach: When my Firefox reloads all the windows and tabs, they all end up on a single one of my 36 workspaces.  It takes as much time to put them back on their respective workspace, as it does to just restart Firefox entirely.
2017-02-15T10:10:16Z rk[ghost]: also.. for crash reasons, i really like chrome's methodology of having each tab a separate process..
2017-02-15T10:10:36Z rk[ghost]: doh XD
2017-02-15T10:10:36Z iago: fiddlerwoaroof: afaik is a work in progress and include as technology preview, not fit for production yet
2017-02-15T10:10:57Z rk[ghost]: what window manager you use, iirc i3wm can remember which workspaces a given window is on..
2017-02-15T10:11:18Z beach: Whatever came with my default installation.
2017-02-15T10:11:26Z flip214_: beach: what desktop environment are you running?
2017-02-15T10:11:41Z beach: Probably Gnome.
2017-02-15T10:11:42Z flip214_: in KDE you can define rules which window to place where
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2017-02-15T10:12:05Z beach: flip214_: That is not how I work.
2017-02-15T10:12:12Z beach: I use a workspace for each task.
2017-02-15T10:12:34Z beach: One for SICL, one for IRC, one for Second Climacs, one for the bank, one for email, etc.
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2017-02-15T10:13:07Z beach: Each workspace typically has shell, Emacs, Evince, Firefox, maybe Xfig.
2017-02-15T10:13:25Z flip214_: you can also use "wmctrl" to script window movements via bash scripts
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2017-02-15T10:17:07Z loke``: I'm surprised you're not using StumpWM
2017-02-15T10:17:29Z loke``: That's really the most powerful way to configure your workspaces, and for a Lisper it should be a nobrainer choice.
2017-02-15T10:18:09Z beach: flip214_: I typically don't want a window to move after I create it.
2017-02-15T10:18:24Z loke``: beach: You want Stumpwm
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2017-02-15T10:19:10Z beach: I want LispOS, that's what I want, so that I don't have to use hacks to kludges, to bad design in order to get some work done.
2017-02-15T10:19:41Z beach: But I get it...
2017-02-15T10:20:38Z beach: Change the OS to a microkernel, replace Firefox by Chrome, replace Gnome by KDE, replace my current window manager by Stumpwm.
2017-02-15T10:21:24Z beach: Will that fix it?
2017-02-15T10:21:58Z jackdaniel: you forgot about pixidust, you have to put it on the monitor :)
2017-02-15T10:22:21Z loke``: beach: With Stumpwm you won't be using any gnome nor kde
2017-02-15T10:22:25Z rk[ghost]: never forget the pixidust..
2017-02-15T10:23:00Z beach: Yeah, and I forgot to address the fact that Evince must be replaced with something that can be live patched.  Same for Xfig.
2017-02-15T10:23:22Z beach: I need a system administrator for that.  Or else I will spend my entire life with system administration instead of writing software, documentation, and papers.
2017-02-15T10:23:31Z rk[ghost] recently got a hifive1.. really want to make a basic OS in a lisp:)
2017-02-15T10:24:30Z rk[ghost]: i really like 'zathura' for viewing pdfs and such..
2017-02-15T10:25:16Z ebrasca-afk: beach: Maybe mezzano?
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2017-02-15T10:26:57Z flip214_: beach: no. What I suggest is to write a shell script _once_ that re-applies your window-to-workspace preferences to the active windows, via wmctrl.
2017-02-15T10:27:04Z nirved: writing Lisp OS isn't that hard, let's make one
2017-02-15T10:27:13Z flip214_: a one-time effort that should save you quite some time in the future.
2017-02-15T10:27:24Z flip214_: I'm not talking about switching to KDE or anything else.
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2017-02-15T10:33:20Z beach: flip214_: How do I identify "a window" in a way that it will go to the right workspace?
2017-02-15T10:35:10Z flip214_: beach: by title/window class/window ID, and there's two special values ":SELECT:" and ":ACTIVE:"
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2017-02-15T10:35:58Z flip214_: eg. I have class "Navigator.Firefox"
2017-02-15T10:35:59Z beach: So whenever I create a window, I need to inform it what class it is?
2017-02-15T10:36:26Z beach: flip214_: That is not how I work.  I might want one page from the Common Lisp HyperSpec on one workspace, and another page (possibly the same) on a different workspace.  For example, if I work on SICL in one workspace, Second Climacs in one workspace, Cluffer in one workspace, etc.
2017-02-15T10:36:54Z beach: There is nothing that distinguishes the windows in different workspaces.
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2017-02-15T10:37:12Z beach: They all have an Emacs, a shell, and possibly some more stuff.
2017-02-15T10:37:43Z flip214_: well, then the next idea is to script the browser start - start ff, open new window at $URL, move to desktop X. open new window at $URL, move to Y, ...
2017-02-15T10:38:02Z flip214_: sorry that I can't offer any easier ideas.
2017-02-15T10:38:06Z beach: My solution so far is very simple.  Never restart (unless Firefox refuses to execute some plug-in because it is too old).
2017-02-15T10:38:25Z jackdaniel: it's not wm I suggest to use by anybody, but that reminds mi "tags" feature in awesome wm (you may say – show me windows from workspaces 1, 3 and 5)
2017-02-15T10:38:27Z flip214_: but yes, some window manager remember the workspace each window was in
2017-02-15T10:38:28Z beach: But after a month or so, my computer tends to get pretty slow.
2017-02-15T10:39:00Z flip214_: beach: perhaps "about:memory" in firefox and pressing "GC" a few times would help
2017-02-15T10:39:31Z beach: Maybe so.  I understand it is not written in Common Lisp.
2017-02-15T10:39:40Z beach: ... which is too bad.
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2017-02-15T10:47:22Z |3b|: CL wouldn't help with poorly written web pages (and/or ads on them) using up large amounts of ram :/
2017-02-15T10:48:37Z |3b|: (though it might make it easier for users to hack around the various problems)
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2017-02-15T10:49:49Z rk[ghost]: :o .. thanks for the gc tip!!
2017-02-15T10:50:14Z rk[ghost]: been using another persons winbox from time to time. .and it never seems to release memory.. so firefox has to be restarted much too often..
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2017-02-15T10:51:54Z rk[ghost]: some day.. the web will be a nice place again.. as soon as programmers quit accepting money to write adbots :P
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2017-02-15T10:59:44Z phoe_: rk[ghost]: so, never.
2017-02-15T11:00:14Z rk[ghost]: :=[
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2017-02-15T11:06:18Z ebrasca: is there some relation in http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf and https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano ?
2017-02-15T11:07:23Z jackdaniel: no
2017-02-15T11:08:26Z nirved: just another os written by hand
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2017-02-15T11:20:59Z malice`: hi
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2017-02-15T11:24:40Z ebrasca: malice`: hi
2017-02-15T11:26:19Z flip214_: beach: are you interested in feedback for the lispos.pdf, too?
2017-02-15T11:26:42Z flip214_: or is that already too old for such nonsense?
2017-02-15T11:29:04Z rk[ghost]: i feel like LFE would be a good foundation to build a lispOS on..
2017-02-15T11:29:15Z rk[ghost]: need to program a native BEAM on a machine, and work from there.
2017-02-15T11:29:16Z rk[ghost]: OTP
2017-02-15T11:29:28Z rk[ghost]:  seems to have good constructs that would go hand in hand with an OS
2017-02-15T11:31:13Z ebrasca: rk[ghost]: I don't understand "LFE".
2017-02-15T11:32:11Z jackdaniel: LFE – Lisp Flavoured Erlang
2017-02-15T11:32:40Z jackdaniel: BEAM is a virtual machine Erlang works on
2017-02-15T11:32:55Z jackdaniel: something like JVM for Java
2017-02-15T11:33:02Z jackdaniel: ebrasca: ↑
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2017-02-15T11:49:47Z rk[ghost]: aye, LFE is Lisp Flavoured Erlang; so it is a lisp that runs on BEAM ( a virtual machine ) that has all the core Erlang libraries (including the amazing OTP, which is a framework for handling concurrent / distributed things)
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2017-02-15T11:50:44Z ebrasca: rk[ghost]: but mezzano run on my machine (bare metal)
2017-02-15T11:51:13Z jackdaniel: Mezzano isn't written in LFE
2017-02-15T11:54:50Z ebrasca: / need to read LFE.
2017-02-15T11:55:10Z ebrasca need to read LFE.
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2017-02-15T12:29:56Z rk[ghost]: OK. how would one run something in a background thread in SBCL? for instance i am playing around with hunchentoot, and i would like to run the (huchentoot:state *instance*) loop without locking up the system to run more functions..
2017-02-15T12:30:13Z rk[ghost]: s/state/start
2017-02-15T12:30:24Z rk[ghost]: i haven't done any multithreading yet in lisp ..
2017-02-15T12:30:30Z |3b|: bordeaux-threads is a popular portabilty lib for using threads
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2017-02-15T12:31:31Z |3b|: with that, something like (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (lambda () stuff to do in other thead))
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2017-02-15T12:31:43Z rk[ghost]: aye aye
2017-02-15T12:32:07Z rk[ghost]: i am pretty sure using quicklisp to pull huchentoot, that it pulled bordeaux-thread lib.. lemme try 'er out
2017-02-15T12:32:08Z |3b|: usually you would also want to save the thread object so you could interact with it further
2017-02-15T12:32:12Z rk[ghost]: aye
2017-02-15T12:32:13Z rk[ghost]: i
2017-02-15T12:32:19Z rk[ghost]: was going to ask.. how to refer to thread later..
2017-02-15T12:32:32Z rk[ghost]: is there some good tutorial or docs for bordeaux threads?
2017-02-15T12:32:37Z |3b|: possibly give it a name for debugging
2017-02-15T12:33:09Z |3b|: https://trac.common-lisp.net/bordeaux-threads/wiki/ApiDocumentation i think is the docs
2017-02-15T12:33:34Z flip214_: rk[ghost]: hunchentoot also exports its internal start-thread, you can just use that, I guess.
2017-02-15T12:33:52Z rk[ghost]: aye, thanks and thanks
2017-02-15T12:34:10Z rk[ghost]: i will play with bordeaux threads for now, since i know i can use in my other projects as well
2017-02-15T12:34:17Z flip214_: (hunchentoo:start-thread T (lambda () (hunchentoot:start ...)) :key :ht-thread)
2017-02-15T12:34:28Z flip214_: that's using the BT threads anyway
2017-02-15T12:34:29Z rk[ghost]: and then look in to start-thread, to see if it has advantage
2017-02-15T12:34:32Z rk[ghost]: ah
2017-02-15T12:34:36Z rk[ghost]: nice, a wrappr.
2017-02-15T12:36:00Z rk[ghost]: what is the t parameter refering to in start-thread?
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2017-02-15T12:38:06Z rk[ghost]: i assume the :key symbol is to reference the thread of symbol :ht-thread ?
2017-02-15T12:38:49Z flip214_: T is just for an (with BT) unused argument
2017-02-15T12:39:16Z flip214_: ah sorry, that should have been ":name :ht-thread" to identify the thread in thread listings
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2017-02-15T12:47:46Z rk[ghost]: err.. if i envoke how you described, i get 'debugger inboked on a BORDEAUX-THREADS::BORDEAUX-MP-CONDITION: There is no thread to support in this instance'
2017-02-15T12:47:59Z rk[ghost]: ima have to do more research.. thanks for some pointers!!
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2017-02-15T12:51:09Z phoe_: rk[ghost]: 0x07b402e0, 0x07b402e4, 0x07b43000
2017-02-15T12:51:12Z phoe_: have some more
2017-02-15T12:51:48Z flip214_: phoe_: are these (void*) or (unsigned long*)?
2017-02-15T12:51:52Z rk[ghost]: ha! and if i run (bordeaux-threads:make-thread (lambda () (cmd..)) it still seems to fail to return to a prompt.. just "hangs"
2017-02-15T12:52:04Z rk[ghost]: phoe_: whose stack am i looking at?
2017-02-15T12:52:40Z rk[ghost]: those better not be null pointers.. .. .. you trying to have me lock up!?
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2017-02-15T12:54:13Z jackdaniel: rk[ghost]: what implementation do you use?
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2017-02-15T12:54:30Z rk[ghost]: jack
2017-02-15T12:54:51Z jackdaniel: bordeaux threads has fallback code for unsupported implementations
2017-02-15T12:54:53Z rk[ghost]: jackdaniel: implementation of which?
2017-02-15T12:55:00Z jackdaniel: implementation of Common Lisp
2017-02-15T12:55:12Z rk[ghost]: sbcl
2017-02-15T12:55:19Z jackdaniel: (unsupported or built without threads that is)
2017-02-15T12:55:20Z rk[ghost]: is what i am trying to run on
2017-02-15T12:55:55Z flip214_: on which platform?
2017-02-15T12:56:05Z rk[ghost]: 32bit arm
2017-02-15T12:56:08Z flip214_: arm32 doesn't have threads, for example
2017-02-15T12:56:11Z flip214_: ;)
2017-02-15T12:56:13Z jackdaniel: sbcl doesn't have threads on arm32
2017-02-15T12:56:13Z rk[ghost]: dohs
2017-02-15T12:56:13Z rk[ghost]: dklfhj
2017-02-15T12:56:14Z rk[ghost]:  asdkjf lkas
2017-02-15T12:56:19Z rk[ghost]: sorry for spamming.
2017-02-15T12:56:32Z jackdaniel: rk[ghost]: go with ccl on arm32 for threads
2017-02-15T12:56:38Z rk[ghost]: aye aye
2017-02-15T12:56:49Z flip214_: my RPi is just running multiple SBCL processes... one for the web-frontend, and another for the backend
2017-02-15T12:57:00Z flip214_: and they communicate via tmpfs files
2017-02-15T12:57:06Z rk[ghost]: :o nice.
2017-02-15T12:57:17Z flip214_: no, not really. but the easiest way forward.
2017-02-15T12:57:21Z jackdaniel: why aren't you using ccl for that?
2017-02-15T12:57:43Z rk[ghost]: i will try out ccl.. i was using clisp in the past.. but moved over to sbcl because many people seem to talk highly of it.. and i /thought/ it would solve my thread issue that i had in another program (irc bot)
2017-02-15T12:58:32Z flip214_: jackdaniel: habit, I guess. no really good reason, other than that I hoped for arm32 to get thread support soon
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2017-02-15T13:12:53Z rk[ghost]: i was just getting used to sbcl's debugger :P
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2017-02-15T13:14:03Z flip214: yeah. habit, as I said.
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2017-02-15T13:19:05Z rk[ghost]: grr.. ccl isn't liking something with hunchentoot.. i can see why i have spent so much time away from computers.. :P
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2017-02-15T14:59:05Z jackdaniel: Xach: what is githappy system? my QL can't find it (experimenting with quicklisp-controller)
2017-02-15T14:59:44Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's a project to access the github api. it's on https://github.com/xach/githappy/
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2017-02-15T14:59:53Z Xach: I use it to fetch and update issue info
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2017-02-15T15:00:54Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2017-02-15T15:03:18Z phoe_: chapter Numbers is pushed on to CLUS! (with bugs, but eh)
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2017-02-15T15:03:34Z phoe_: next chapter: Deuteronomy, as per request from Xach
2017-02-15T15:03:36Z beach: flip214: Yes, feedback is always welcome.  But in the case of LispOS, there are so many misunderstandings, disagreements, old habits, nay sayers, performance-oriented people, etc., that I can't predict what you would comment on, nor what I might do with your remarks.
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2017-02-15T15:07:37Z beach: flip214: For example, from my understanding of microkernels, that would be a huge step in the absolute wrong direction if one were to base a LispOS on such a kernel.
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2017-02-15T15:11:35Z nirved: any hand-written LispOS is doomed - the core should be able to rewrite itself given a description of a new hardware
2017-02-15T15:11:59Z phoe_: nirved: you've just described a compiler
2017-02-15T15:12:17Z Zhivago: The biggest problem with talking about LispOS is that generally people are unable to articulate what problem they want it to solve.
2017-02-15T15:12:46Z Zhivago: Which is why it tends to degenerate into discussions about performance and magic.
2017-02-15T15:13:01Z dlowe: that isn't solved with much less effort by using existing tech
2017-02-15T15:14:42Z Zhivago: Often it just ends up being 'lisp all the way down', without considering just what it means to implement a lisp GC in lisp, much less device drivers.
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2017-02-15T15:16:23Z Zhivago: But those aren't particularly interesting problems in practice for most people.
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2017-02-15T15:17:20Z phoe_: I'd like to implement a Lisp GC in Lisp.
2017-02-15T15:17:49Z nirved: phoe_: not really, currently compilers are hand-written as well; i mean a system which can search for optimizations by itself
2017-02-15T15:17:54Z phoe_: Would be a challenge, to create something like this which doesn't cons a single byte.
2017-02-15T15:18:15Z phoe_: nirved: you're already talking about AI.
2017-02-15T15:18:30Z papachan: is there any tutorial to deploy and run a FASL image into a freebsd server?
2017-02-15T15:18:30Z Zhivago: There's no reason that the GC shouldn't cons.
2017-02-15T15:18:41Z phoe_: Zhivago: out-of-memory GC call
2017-02-15T15:19:16Z Zhivago: You can always reserve some.
2017-02-15T15:19:28Z phoe_: Zhivago: that's not consing, that's preallocation.
2017-02-15T15:19:50Z Zhivago: You can always reserve some space into which to cons.
2017-02-15T15:19:51Z _death: pre-reservation..
2017-02-15T15:19:52Z nirved: phoe_: only if AI & searching are equivalent
2017-02-15T15:20:13Z Zhivago: i.e., a GC-only arena.
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2017-02-15T15:21:41Z rumbler3_: papacha, what?
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2017-02-15T15:22:08Z phoe_: Zhivago: this is becoming dangerous.
2017-02-15T15:22:15Z Zhivago: Why?
2017-02-15T15:22:21Z phoe_: you're reserving some memory for GC-only allocation.
2017-02-15T15:22:32Z Zhivago: Why is that dangerous?
2017-02-15T15:22:35Z phoe_: When it runs out during GC, what happens?
2017-02-15T15:22:52Z _death: you make sure that it doesn't run out
2017-02-15T15:23:07Z Zhivago: Pick an algorithm which has bounded space usage within collection.
2017-02-15T15:24:19Z phoe_: So effectively, we reserve some memory and then tell the GC that it can dynamically allocate memory within it.
2017-02-15T15:24:42Z Zhivago: Or use an incremental algorithm, and share.
2017-02-15T15:24:42Z phoe_: Sounds dangerous to me, but okay.
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2017-02-15T15:25:37Z fe[nl]ix: Franz solved it by having a C-in-Lisp subset that doesn't cons
2017-02-15T15:25:45Z fe[nl]ix: and wrote the Allegro GC using that
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2017-02-15T15:33:30Z scymtym: the gc algorithm and space organization seem at least as important as writing non-consing gc code. for example, SBCL can easily run out of space for the copying collector to copy objects into, even though the gc is written in C
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2017-02-15T15:40:42Z beach: Zhivago: Yes, that's unfortunately a very common reaction, i.e., to think (or to have the opinion) that a LispOS is like Linux but written entirely in Lisp.
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2017-02-15T15:42:13Z beach at least has 40 pages that explain his own idea about it.
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2017-02-15T16:11:19Z phoe_: geez
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2017-02-15T16:11:41Z phoe_: I think that after parsing all of CLUS I will level up in LaTeX
2017-02-15T16:11:47Z phoe_: as well as in Common Lisp
2017-02-15T16:12:49Z attila_lendvai: a GC is effectively an algorithm running in the encompassing universe, and it's inspecting and altering the state of a sub-universe. it's effectively a variant of the bootstrapping problem, not unrelated to code/data migration when you change something in e.g. object memory layout. fare has written about these things extensively.
2017-02-15T16:13:27Z phoe_: attila_lendvai: I will want to read these things one day, when I'm less busy with parsing the spec.
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2017-02-15T16:13:41Z phoe_: Because GCs in general interest me.
2017-02-15T16:13:51Z attila_lendvai: this is one entry point: https://ngnghm.github.io/
2017-02-15T16:15:29Z phoe_: Oh yes, the tales of hnnnng.
2017-02-15T16:16:11Z attila_lendvai is not fond of those names... hinders the reading experience
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2017-02-15T16:43:59Z aeth: Someone wrote Duff's device in CL: https://www.reddit.com/r/Common_Lisp/comments/5tvd05/duffs_device_in_common_lisp/ddqpt9v/
2017-02-15T16:45:20Z phoe_: clhs ensure-generic-function
2017-02-15T16:45:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensure.htm
2017-02-15T16:45:56Z phoe_: A sentence on that page is duplicated.
2017-02-15T16:45:59Z phoe_: "If (fdefinition function-name) is an ordinary function, a macro, or a special operator, an error of type error is signaled."
2017-02-15T16:46:08Z Bike: it's important so i said it twice
2017-02-15T16:46:12Z phoe_: Once in Description, once in Exceptional situations.
2017-02-15T16:46:20Z phoe_: Bike: ...
2017-02-15T16:46:34Z aeth: that makes no sense, IF SOMETHING IS IMPORTANT YOU WRITE IT IN CAPS LIKE THIS
2017-02-15T16:46:42Z Bike: that's just gauche
2017-02-15T16:46:47Z phoe_: Anyway
2017-02-15T16:46:50Z aeth: well, CL does it :-p
2017-02-15T16:47:08Z phoe_: aeth: this is exactly why you type in small letters
2017-02-15T16:47:09Z aeth: as do the no-warranty warnings in licenses
2017-02-15T16:47:13Z phoe_: AND COMPILER TYPES IN ALL CAPITALS
2017-02-15T16:47:30Z phoe_: Anyway
2017-02-15T16:47:36Z aeth: phoe_: right, because when something goes wrong, I want it shouted at me
2017-02-15T16:47:37Z phoe_: Does it need to be edited?
2017-02-15T16:48:00Z phoe_: I might leave only the copy in Exceptional Situations.
2017-02-15T16:48:56Z Xach: Hmm
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2017-02-15T16:49:18Z phoe_: Wait.
2017-02-15T16:49:22Z phoe_: There's more duplication.
2017-02-15T16:49:23Z phoe_: Much much more.
2017-02-15T16:49:27Z Xach: There is some confusion about read-sequence's return value. I've seen a few bits of code assume it returns the number of elements read from the stream.
2017-02-15T16:49:40Z Xach: I wonder how widespread that confusion is
2017-02-15T16:50:02Z phoe_: clhs read-sequence
2017-02-15T16:50:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm
2017-02-15T16:51:10Z _death: I remember a Naggum post that had read-sequence used in such a way.. later on he explained that it was a patched version or something along these lines
2017-02-15T16:51:39Z Xach:  For example: https://github.com/skypher/montezuma/blob/master/src/store/fs-store.lisp#L162
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2017-02-15T16:52:27Z phoe_: Xach: what happens when the sequence is not long enough to contain the read elements?
2017-02-15T16:52:55Z Xach: phoe_: it returns (length array), the index past the last one filled in the sequence.
2017-02-15T16:53:11Z phoe_: Aren't these two equivalent then?
2017-02-15T16:53:11Z Xach: but it doesn't read more than can fit
2017-02-15T16:53:29Z phoe_: ...oh, wait
2017-02-15T16:53:30Z Xach: phoe_: in the absence of :start and :end, perhaps
2017-02-15T16:53:39Z phoe_: it is equivalent if :START is 0.
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2017-02-15T16:56:42Z phoe_: Xach: you might want to file an issue for that. And even a pull request, since it's simple, replace the variable with (- (read-sequence ...) start)
2017-02-15T16:57:16Z Xach: I don't know if it can actually be triggered by any code path in montezuma, but it is certainly incorrect.
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2017-02-15T16:58:45Z rumbler31: i thought read-sequence blocked until (length array) bytes had been read
2017-02-15T16:59:11Z rumbler31: returns bytes read, so if eof on an input stream is encountered then you know how many were read
2017-02-15T16:59:40Z Xach: rumbler31: you can tell how many were read if you do arithmetic on the return value and your start parameter (which defaults to 0).
2017-02-15T16:59:53Z Xach: yes, read-sequence normally blocks until it reads as much as requested.
2017-02-15T17:00:08Z Xach: different lisps deal with the desire not to do that differently
2017-02-15T17:00:17Z rumbler31: oh
2017-02-15T17:01:02Z rumbler31: as in, throw an error? or return after some timeout?
2017-02-15T17:01:31Z Xach: rumbler31: some add keywords to change semantics. some offer parallel api with different semantics.
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2017-02-15T17:02:18Z rumbler31: er wait, wouldn't the number of bytes read be independent of the :start param?  you'd need to do the math if you wanted to figure out the next :start index to fit the next call to read-sequence, right?
2017-02-15T17:04:55Z phoe_: rumbler31: it's not even about what you as the programmer might want, it's more about what the standard says is returned
2017-02-15T17:05:01Z phoe_: as a programmer, hell, I'd like the number of bytes read
2017-02-15T17:05:37Z phoe_: but instead I get the position of the first unmodified char in the scratch sequence
2017-02-15T17:05:43Z rumbler31: ahh
2017-02-15T17:05:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure if you'd really want the number of bytes read.
2017-02-15T17:05:52Z rumbler31: haha, yea.. I...
2017-02-15T17:06:09Z rumbler31: have been under that misconception
2017-02-15T17:06:24Z phoe_: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, the position is much more useful
2017-02-15T17:06:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: Returning the first unmodified byte lets you restart from where you left off in another call to read-sequence
2017-02-15T17:06:28Z ogamita: (let ((start 0)) (loop while (< start (length s)) do (incf start (read-sequence s :start start))))
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2017-02-15T17:06:41Z phoe_: ...for some use cases
2017-02-15T17:06:47Z ogamita: vs. (let ((start 0)) (loop while (< start (length s)) do (setf start (read-sequence s :start start))))
2017-02-15T17:06:55Z Xach: different values have different utility in different circumstances.
2017-02-15T17:07:05Z Xach: it helps to know what you get and what it's good for
2017-02-15T17:07:10Z phoe_: but:
2017-02-15T17:07:12Z phoe_: clhs ensure-generic-function
2017-02-15T17:07:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ensure.htm
2017-02-15T17:07:15Z Xach ponders writing a LispTip on this topic!
2017-02-15T17:07:17Z rumbler31: alternatively, if you're expecting a specific count of bytes you can simply do that check.  but with the index, you need to make sure that the end index matches your expected value, or math from start,
2017-02-15T17:07:25Z phoe_: there's a lot of duplication about errors in the specification above.
2017-02-15T17:07:42Z phoe_: Do I want to edit that page or do I want to leave it alone?
2017-02-15T17:07:49Z phoe_: beach: Bike: ?
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2017-02-15T17:08:27Z rumbler31: TIL
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2017-02-15T17:10:29Z Bike: hwhat
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2017-02-15T17:10:52Z Bike: i don't think it's a huge deal. do what your heart tells you
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2017-02-15T17:15:43Z beach: phoe_: I think you should leave it.  In the Description part, it says more about what happens if there is no problem, and in the Exceptional Situations part, it says more about what happens if there is a problem.
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2017-02-15T17:18:51Z phoe_: beach: got it.
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2017-02-15T17:20:41Z phoe_: gosh, the draft standard is so beautifully formatted
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2017-02-15T17:42:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe_: is the draft standard provided as tex files?
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2017-02-15T18:03:07Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof: yes
2017-02-15T18:04:01Z Bike: good thing i checked
2017-02-15T18:04:08Z Bike: wrong channel, ignore
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2017-02-15T18:08:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: cool, the texinfo version looks useful too
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2017-02-15T18:08:58Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/RobBlackwell/dpans2texi
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2017-02-15T18:14:06Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes.
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2017-02-15T18:14:25Z phoe: and gosh, they're beautiful~ <3
2017-02-15T18:14:54Z slyrus: beach: around?
2017-02-15T18:15:00Z phoe: download a random .dvi.Z file from http://quimby.gnus.org/circus/cl/dpANS3/, open it up and read
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2017-02-15T18:27:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, the only real issue is the way latex handles `
2017-02-15T18:28:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, and the automatic smart-quoting inside code blocks
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2017-02-15T18:31:25Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: yes, they've done a TeX macro for backticks.
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2017-02-15T18:45:22Z Younder: hi-tex slime.. wonderful
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2017-02-15T18:56:35Z sgript: I was wondering if someone could check this for me? -> http://pastebin.com/Dh7V9EyX
2017-02-15T18:57:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: Why are you defining formslast instead of just using progn?
2017-02-15T18:58:32Z White_Flame: randform decides which form to include into the final sourcecode at compiletime.  Once that's finished, every time you call it, only that chosen form (out of form1 or form2) will be called
2017-02-15T18:58:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: White_Flame: the if is inside the backquote, so I think it works
2017-02-15T18:58:58Z White_Flame: nevermind, skimmed too quickly, yo'ure correct there
2017-02-15T18:59:29Z sgript: i'm a lisp newb rip, thought i would ask the gurus! :D
2017-02-15T18:59:54Z White_Flame: you shouldn't call make-random-state unless you want to specifically control the PRNG
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2017-02-15T19:00:07Z White_Flame: just (random 2) should suffice
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2017-02-15T19:01:12Z sgript: @White_Flame I tried that but for some reason I keep getting the same number
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2017-02-15T19:01:20Z White_Flame: but yeah, there's no difference between (formslast abc def) and (progn abc def), so the macro is functionally moot, unless there's a pressing need to have the name "formslast" in particular
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2017-02-15T19:01:57Z White_Flame: sgript: then you didn't call it enough times ;)
2017-02-15T19:02:22Z sgript: i've been spamming it lol
2017-02-15T19:02:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: formslast does add the restriction that it can only be used on two forms, which might be useful
2017-02-15T19:03:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: sgript: which lisp are you using?
2017-02-15T19:03:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: i.e. implementation
2017-02-15T19:03:55Z sgript: common lisp
2017-02-15T19:04:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: I mean sbcl, ccl, etc.
2017-02-15T19:04:16Z sgript: clisp, i tried sbcl too
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2017-02-15T19:07:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Weird, I guess the initial state for sbcl's prng is always the same on linux/x64
2017-02-15T19:08:01Z phoe: White_Flame: actually
2017-02-15T19:08:11Z phoe: he should call (MAKE-RANDOM-STATE T)
2017-02-15T19:08:25Z phoe: if he wants to get different numbers on each run.
2017-02-15T19:08:30Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just once, though
2017-02-15T19:08:38Z phoe: yes, once.
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2017-02-15T19:08:48Z phoe: and bind/setf it to *random-state*.
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2017-02-15T19:14:21Z aeth: oh wow
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2017-02-15T19:17:21Z phoe: wait wait
2017-02-15T19:17:28Z aeth: (loop for i from 1 to 10 collect (random i)) => (0 0 2 2 1 4 5 1 3) ; on a freshly launched SBCL on Linux
2017-02-15T19:17:29Z phoe: you don't need to make a new random-state on each try
2017-02-15T19:17:32Z aeth: I tried on several different versions
2017-02-15T19:17:48Z aeth: I expect the first elt to be 0 (since it's (random 1)) but the rest is unexpected
2017-02-15T19:18:04Z phoe: aeth: huh, no wonder
2017-02-15T19:18:06Z phoe: it's random
2017-02-15T19:18:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: try running several times sbcl --eval '(princ (loop with *random-state* = (make-random-state t) repeat 100 collect (random 2)))' --no-userinit --quit
2017-02-15T19:18:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: without the with *random-state*
2017-02-15T19:18:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I get the same output each time...
2017-02-15T19:18:32Z aeth: M-x s-r-i-l if you need to get (0 0 2 2 1 4 5 1 3) again
2017-02-15T19:18:33Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: me too
2017-02-15T19:19:18Z phoe: you need to initialize the random state to a (make-random-state t) if you want a fresh seed
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2017-02-15T19:19:26Z phoe: without it, the random state is not-so-random
2017-02-15T19:19:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: sgript: so, your production app should call (make-random-state t), unless you always want the same sequence for some reason :)
2017-02-15T19:19:41Z phoe: sgript: the second macro is useless
2017-02-15T19:19:43Z phoe: just use progn
2017-02-15T19:19:46Z phoe: it will return the last value.
2017-02-15T19:20:00Z White_Flame: last values ;)
2017-02-15T19:20:11Z phoe: values, right
2017-02-15T19:20:15Z phoe: whatever the last form evaluates to
2017-02-15T19:21:27Z sgript: @fiddlerwoaroof so I'm good then as is?
2017-02-15T19:21:47Z fiddlerwoaroof: sgript: ideally you'd only call make-random-state once
2017-02-15T19:22:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: at the top of your main function, do (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t))
2017-02-15T19:22:54Z Younder: It should use linux entropy pool to seed the random number generator. After that use random.
2017-02-15T19:23:07Z sgript: ah then i can use random normally?\
2017-02-15T19:23:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, without more context, it's pretty hard to evaluate your code
2017-02-15T19:23:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: sgript: yes
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2017-02-15T19:28:13Z aeth: In case anyone is wondering, SBCL uses this for random: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/7644df292389a51a653dff68cc82d1cc121fd9b6/src/code/target-random.lisp
2017-02-15T19:28:16Z aeth: i.e. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_Twister
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2017-02-15T19:29:04Z _death: usually you want programs to give the same results, even if sometimes they need properties of random number sequences.. exceptions may be games or cryptographic software
2017-02-15T19:29:31Z sgript: awesome, thanks guys
2017-02-15T19:29:41Z fiddlerwoaroof: _death: or if you're generating random sequences for something like QuickCheck
2017-02-15T19:30:07Z sgript: also @phoe that's what I'm a little confused with too, I've been asked to make a definition for formslast, as a subsequent exercise after randform
2017-02-15T19:30:21Z aeth: _death: with games you often want random to give the same results, e.g. when you're generating a map that people might want to pick later... or a solitaire deck or something
2017-02-15T19:30:27Z aeth: Actually, those are the only two cases I can think of
2017-02-15T19:30:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: bug reports too, I suspect
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2017-02-15T19:31:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: It'd be useful to bundle up the entire state of the game to be replayed on a developer's computer
2017-02-15T19:31:18Z _death: aeth: sure, I'm just giving examples where you may want different results
2017-02-15T19:31:24Z sgript: i was just told to write a definition for formslast that executed both args but only returned the last one
2017-02-15T19:31:38Z sgript: so i thought i could use progn, not too sure how else to go about it hmm
2017-02-15T19:31:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: Ah, this is homework, then carry on :)
2017-02-15T19:33:28Z sgript: only thing is we never get solutions so lol
2017-02-15T19:33:54Z _death: though for cryptographic software, you wouldn't use RANDOM, especially not if it's implemented using mersenne twister..
2017-02-15T19:34:03Z Younder: The thing about homework is that you are supposed to do it alone. It is a term that predated Internet.
2017-02-15T19:35:02Z aeth: _death: Is there any cryptographic software in quicklisp? I wonder how many use RANDOM
2017-02-15T19:35:09Z sgript: that's what i did 8)
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2017-02-15T19:35:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: ironclad
2017-02-15T19:35:37Z _death: aeth: perhaps I should've used the term "cryptographic purposes", or "security purposes".. I'm not just talking about, say, ironclad
2017-02-15T19:35:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: That has a bunch of its own CSPRNGs, though
2017-02-15T19:35:53Z _death: aeth: for example, hunchentoot generates session tokens.. and it uses RANDOM :(
2017-02-15T19:36:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: (at least, it has FORTUNA)
2017-02-15T19:36:02Z edgar-rft: Younder: I was at school long before computers were affordable by normal people and even then nobody did their homework alone.
2017-02-15T19:36:23Z aeth: _death: well that's one reason to use Woo instead of Hunchentoot, I guess
2017-02-15T19:36:33Z _death: aeth: what does that one use
2017-02-15T19:36:34Z aeth: no random in woo: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=random
2017-02-15T19:36:57Z Younder: A Merseanne twister is pretty good. I thing you are thinking of C's rand whic is rubbish.
2017-02-15T19:37:04Z Younder: edgar-rft, so was I
2017-02-15T19:38:41Z _death: Younder: no, mersenne twister is not good for such purposes at all..
2017-02-15T19:38:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: Younder: there was some guy who managed to discover the RNG's internal state in the roguelike Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup just by observing what happened in the game
2017-02-15T19:38:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: DCSS then changed its RNG
2017-02-15T19:38:59Z _death: Younder: for example, see challenges 21-24 in http://cryptopals.com/sets/3
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2017-02-15T19:40:10Z phoe: sgript: this is pure nonsense
2017-02-15T19:40:21Z _death: Younder: also, C's rand, like cl:random, can be implemented using mersenne twister.. the difference is that it's easier to use cl:random interface correctly
2017-02-15T19:40:24Z phoe: you do not need to define an operator which executes two forms and only returns the last one
2017-02-15T19:40:33Z phoe: PROGN
2017-02-15T19:40:35Z phoe: AND
2017-02-15T19:40:37Z phoe: LOCALLY
2017-02-15T19:40:42Z phoe: PROG2 in case of two operators
2017-02-15T19:40:47Z phoe: s/operators/forms/
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2017-02-15T19:41:13Z _death: phoe: it is not nonsense.. sometimes you want to give an operator a different name to clarify intent
2017-02-15T19:41:22Z aeth: phoe: yeah, that's exactly prog2, right?
2017-02-15T19:41:31Z phoe: _death: it is nonsense to define an operator that is already defined
2017-02-15T19:41:33Z phoe: and more
2017-02-15T19:41:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: formslast isn't already defined, though
2017-02-15T19:41:45Z phoe: which has exactly the definition that you need
2017-02-15T19:42:06Z fiddlerwoaroof: if you have the requirement that the macro accept exactly two forms, then neither prog2 nor progn will work
2017-02-15T19:42:11Z Younder: Games usually don't have great needs for RNG. I would have to be something like a monte-carlo integration.
2017-02-15T19:42:32Z aeth: Younder: Ignoring procgen... What about game AI?
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2017-02-15T19:42:49Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: sigh.
2017-02-15T19:43:00Z phoe: in this case, fine, `(progn ,form1 ,form2).
2017-02-15T19:43:08Z _death: Younder: for simulations indeed you tend to use noncryptographic prngs, because the cryptographic ones tend to be much much slower
2017-02-15T19:43:09Z phoe: but this is silly, no one writes code like this.
2017-02-15T19:43:14Z aeth: Younder: Also if it's an FPS with a hitscan weapon, isn't there a probability of hitting that depends on distance or something?
2017-02-15T19:43:49Z _death: Younder: and again, you may also want reproducibility
2017-02-15T19:44:07Z Younder: so fix the seed for tests
2017-02-15T19:44:17Z aeth: Actually, I do wonder
2017-02-15T19:44:33Z aeth: Is the weapon spread in an FPS purely deterministic somehow? It can't be, can it?
2017-02-15T19:44:41Z Younder: If you wan't the perfect RNG you need a radio isotope.
2017-02-15T19:44:47Z aeth: I guess that's more of a #lispgames question, though
2017-02-15T19:45:24Z aeth: Younder: You don't need a perfect RNG. You just need a strong enough RNG for cryptography or for, I guess, preventing cheaters in games.
2017-02-15T19:46:00Z _death: Younder: according to some people, America has a perfect RNG as a president :d
2017-02-15T19:46:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: aeth: to avoid predictability, it might be sufficient just to reseed M-T every n numbers
2017-02-15T19:47:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: You'd just have to reseed before you've generated enough numbers to reveal the internal state. Although, this is probably not a good idea for cryptographic applications.
2017-02-15T19:48:46Z _death: fiddlerwoaroof: that just begs the question of seeding
2017-02-15T19:49:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: AES in counter mode
2017-02-15T19:49:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-02-15T19:49:14Z _death: that still requires a nonce
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2017-02-15T19:50:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, seeding a RNG is always non-trivial
2017-02-15T19:50:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: Especially, if you have to synchronize two people's RNGs without leaking the seed
2017-02-15T19:51:25Z aeth: Just call random.org over https to seed the RNG ;-)
2017-02-15T19:52:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: You could probably use a variant of this, to get synchronized seeds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_poker#The_algorithm
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2017-02-15T19:55:37Z Younder: If you are serious you might want to look the 'MIT handbook of applied cryptography'
2017-02-15T19:56:12Z _death: you can just use /dev/urandom :)
2017-02-15T19:57:08Z _death: https://github.com/death/srandom
2017-02-15T19:57:53Z Younder: sorry http://cacr.uwaterloo.ca/hac/
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2017-02-15T20:00:29Z Younder: or on linux just a /dev/random or /dew/wrandom
2017-02-15T20:01:57Z nirved: i like philox from random123 - a counting rng
2017-02-15T20:06:11Z _death: nirved: text says it's noncryptographic
2017-02-15T20:07:34Z nirved: _death: but very good for simulations
2017-02-15T20:07:50Z aeth: on Linux you can use the getrandom() system call
2017-02-15T20:07:51Z _death: feistel network.. been a while since I heard that term :)
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2017-02-15T20:08:26Z aeth: unfortunately, man getrandom says it was introduced in 3.17, and kernel.org says all but 3 of the many longterm kernels are < 3.17
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2017-02-15T20:08:47Z aeth: (8 total there, but some distros probably support unsupported ones)
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2017-02-15T21:55:22Z phoe: aw fuck
2017-02-15T21:55:29Z phoe just started parsing chapter Objects
2017-02-15T21:55:44Z phoe: parsing generic functions is the worst
2017-02-15T21:56:09Z phoe: because I end up needing to read, understand and format a lot of stuff about CLOS internals
2017-02-15T21:56:13Z phoe: which is heavy.
2017-02-15T21:56:27Z phoe: I think I need some moral support on this one, or CLUS in general.
2017-02-15T21:56:40Z Bike: you want like pats on the head or what
2017-02-15T21:56:52Z phoe: yes please
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2017-02-15T21:57:58Z Bike: pat pat
2017-02-15T21:58:12Z phoe: thank you Bike
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2017-02-15T22:49:31Z smokeink: in asdf can the output-file for the op asdf:monolithic-compile-bundle-op be overriden ?
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2017-02-15T23:54:50Z jasom: aeth: the recoil on in CS beta 6 was deterministic; I had a friend who could move the mouse to compensate for the mp5 and put them all on target at range
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2017-02-16T02:07:03Z drmeister: Does quicklisp compile C code in systems?
2017-02-16T02:07:32Z XachX: drmeister: that is up to asdf
2017-02-16T02:08:01Z drmeister: Are there systems that incorporate C code that asdf builds alongside Common Lisp code?
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2017-02-16T02:10:27Z drmeister: I ask because I'm giving a talk tomorrow to a group of computational chemists and I wanted to tell them about quicklisp/asdf as a software deployment system.  They would be interested to hear if C, Fortran and C++ code can be deployed together with Common Lisp code.
2017-02-16T02:11:42Z Bike: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Groveller-ASDF-Integration.html#Groveller-ASDF-Integration there's grovel
2017-02-16T02:12:26Z Bike: i think there are more explicit examples though...
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2017-02-16T02:16:36Z NewLisper: when i write a defclass ex: (defclass current-window (window)). When doing (make-instance 'current-widnow). I get an error in sbcl eval "window is a direct superclass of current-window"
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2017-02-16T02:18:40Z Bike: ...and window isn't defined?
2017-02-16T02:19:32Z NewLisper: It is defined in an external library I quickloaded
2017-02-16T02:19:51Z Bike: But is window not being defined mentioned in the error?
2017-02-16T02:20:02Z NewLisper: no
2017-02-16T02:20:11Z Bike: OK, what's the full error message?
2017-02-16T02:21:02Z NewLisper: While computing the class precedence list of the class named COMMON-LISP-USER::GAME-WINDOW. The class named COMMON-LISP-USER::WINDOW is a forward referenced class. The class named COMMON-LISP-USER::WINDOW is a direct superclass of the class named COMMON-LISP-USER::GAME-WINDOW.
2017-02-16T02:21:42Z Bike: okay, so that says "window is not defined" in so many words.
2017-02-16T02:22:04Z Bike: You mentioned it was from an external library. You probably just need to qualify the window symbol. Do you know what package the external library defines/
2017-02-16T02:23:08Z NewLisper: Well I am using the lib sdl2kit. I used quickload to load it in slime. I am new to these tools so bare with me please
2017-02-16T02:23:16Z Bike: Of course.
2017-02-16T02:23:37Z Bike: in lisp we have namespaces called "packages". you need to qualify symbols with namespaces at times.
2017-02-16T02:24:02Z Bike: Try, let's see, kit.sdl2:window in the class definition instead.
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2017-02-16T02:24:45Z NewLisper: you mean including the package like (in-package :kit.sdl2)
2017-02-16T02:24:56Z NewLisper: ok
2017-02-16T02:25:07Z Bike: in-package is a bit more extreme
2017-02-16T02:26:43Z NewLisper: in window class' definition?
2017-02-16T02:27:00Z Bike: Like (defclass current-window (kit.sdl2:window) ())
2017-02-16T02:27:25Z NewLisper: ok thats what i thought yeah i get the same error
2017-02-16T02:27:44Z Bike: Really? With "COMMON-LISP-USER::WINDOW"?
2017-02-16T02:27:59Z NewLisper: wait nevermind
2017-02-16T02:27:59Z Bike: Are you defining multiple classes? Because your error was actually about game-window.
2017-02-16T02:28:02Z NewLisper: sorry
2017-02-16T02:28:05Z NewLisper: that actually worked
2017-02-16T02:28:17Z Bike: great.
2017-02-16T02:28:53Z NewLisper: sorry noob here like i said. thanks.
2017-02-16T02:31:24Z NewLisper: So how long have you been programming in lisp?
2017-02-16T02:31:52Z Bike: me? couple years
2017-02-16T02:32:50Z NewLisper: Yeah you. cool. This is like my 4th day into it. What was your first programming language?
2017-02-16T02:33:51Z loke`` 's first language was Commodore 64 BASIC.
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2017-02-16T02:34:06Z Bike: qbasic, i think
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2017-02-16T02:37:08Z NewLisper: mine was c++
2017-02-16T02:37:54Z NewLisper: trying to get used to all the parentheses lol
2017-02-16T02:37:57Z fiddlerwoaroof started with Delphi/Object Pascal
2017-02-16T02:38:20Z NewLisper: cool
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2017-02-16T02:46:52Z rk[ghost]: i'd like to argue that my first language was html
2017-02-16T02:47:03Z Bike: why do you want to argue
2017-02-16T02:47:14Z rk[ghost]: i suppose i don't
2017-02-16T02:47:18Z rk[ghost] retracts statement
2017-02-16T02:47:34Z rk[ghost]: just, i have had others contest me that html isn't a language
2017-02-16T02:47:57Z rk[ghost]: isn't a "programming" language, that is
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2017-02-16T02:59:53Z Zhivago: Well, it might be argued that it isn't a very interesting language.
2017-02-16T03:00:09Z Zhivago: But there are probably more interesting things to do.
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2017-02-16T03:08:50Z loke: rk[ghost]: What was your first turing-complete language?
2017-02-16T03:09:01Z loke waits form someone to say vi
2017-02-16T03:09:06Z loke: or sed
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2017-02-16T03:09:26Z loke: Or minecraft.
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2017-02-16T03:12:32Z raydeejay: make
2017-02-16T03:12:43Z raydeejay: magic the gathering xD
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2017-02-16T03:16:39Z loke: Magic cards are turing-complete?
2017-02-16T03:17:25Z loke: Oh, wtf...
2017-02-16T03:17:27Z loke reads
2017-02-16T03:18:11Z rk[ghost]: loke: the first program i wrote was in C. i programmed the dice gambling game, Ceelo
2017-02-16T03:19:21Z rk[ghost]: actually, it was C++, but i didn't use any ++ constructs.
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2017-02-16T03:22:12Z rk[ghost]: from there, i took a course in Java and was trained a handful of software techniques in Java.. slowly i discovered everything from shell scripting in bash or perl, to languagaes like Erlang and Common Lisp
2017-02-16T03:23:29Z rk[ghost]: when i first discovered lisp, i was in awesome. i had read a handful of books on different languages, like python for instance and saw many interesting constructs. however the simplicity of the syntax and powerful features like functions as first class citizens..
2017-02-16T03:23:55Z edgar-rft: loke: if you play Ace Trump (card game) with CARs then it could happen that your cards are touring-complete
2017-02-16T03:24:53Z rk[ghost]: i find it strange that people are turned off by the ().. i find such syntax very organized and easy to read
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2017-02-16T04:01:06Z aeth: Whenever I do any moderately complicated formula I wind up putting parentheses around it anyway to avoid precedence mistakes so it's not a big leap from ((y + 3) / (10 * (27 + x))) to (/ (+ y 3) (* 10 (+ 27 x))) and in fact the latter is easier to split between lines
2017-02-16T04:01:52Z aeth: and it's a clear syntactical win imo for actual complicated function calls like foo(bar(baz(quux(x, y, z), u), v), w) vs (foo (bar (baz (quux x y z) u) v) w)
2017-02-16T04:03:26Z aeth: Also notice in my examples the parentheses count is the same. Add in some other things and you're going to get {}s or foo...end etc. and have just about the same amount of things, just different kinds of them
2017-02-16T04:04:58Z aeth: A lot of the time the way to avoid the equivalent complexity is bound to introduce bugs, e.g. if without {}s in C, or equations without ()s that could make operator precedence unclear
2017-02-16T04:08:56Z aeth: And I *really* prefer having ))))) to end\n\tend\n\t\tend\n\t\t\tend\n\t\t\t\tend or }\n\t}\n\t\t}\n\t\t\t}\n\t\t\t\t} and the only real other way to have cleanness imo is making whitespace significant
2017-02-16T04:09:22Z aeth: oh, hmm, I suppose the indentation is going in the reverse order than it would actually go. oops.
2017-02-16T04:09:49Z Blukunfando: It’s like human languages: people often prefer to save a tiny amount of mental effort rather than bother to be precise, and they can blame any misunderstanding on the listener for being too obtuse.  It’s a way to show status.
2017-02-16T04:11:08Z aeth: Well, the worst example of that in programming: If you write 1+1 instead of 1 + 1 to save two ' 's (the easiest key to press) that's such a tiny amount of effort you're saving. Lisp forces you to write (+ 1 1) so you can't be sloppy/lazy there.
2017-02-16T04:11:47Z aeth: You're sacrificing clarity when you don't put whitespace in '1+1'
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2017-02-16T04:14:54Z loke: aeth: I sometimes write C code with Lisp-style indentation. Putting all the }'s at the end of the line.
2017-02-16T04:15:08Z aeth: The proper way to be lazy in programming is with abstractions imo. Preferably someone else's.
2017-02-16T04:15:11Z loke: The only problem with that is that code editors gets confused and tries to reformat for me.
2017-02-16T04:15:23Z aeth: loke: I do that in Lua a lot because tables can get complicated and }}}}}} is just so much better
2017-02-16T04:15:48Z loke: aeth: Unless you're using clojure, and instead of a nice ))))) you get some horrific )))]))])))
2017-02-16T04:15:50Z aeth: in lua "end end end end end" wouldn't really make too much sense, though, unfortunately
2017-02-16T04:16:23Z aeth: loke: which imo is awful because if I'm for some reason editing without paredit, I just want to know that I closed everything, not what I'm closing
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2017-02-16T06:20:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-16T06:57:27Z myrkraverk: To comment on a discussion about 10-12 hours ago: I just read directly from /dev/[u]random when I need random.
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2017-02-16T06:58:28Z myrkraverk: (with-open-file (dev-urandom "/dev/urandom" :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) :direction :input) ... )
2017-02-16T06:58:52Z loke uses SECURE-RANDOM. It's OK, and reasonably platform-independent.
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2017-02-16T06:59:24Z myrkraverk: /dev/urandom is also reasonably platform independent c;
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2017-02-16T07:00:24Z myrkraverk: I use this for oauth nonces, etc.
2017-02-16T07:01:18Z myrkraverk: Which, afaict, /should/ be cryptographicly sufficient random (oauth, that is)
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2017-02-16T07:01:34Z myrkraverk: And I hope I'm not repeating Sony's mistake here.
2017-02-16T07:03:01Z myrkraverk: But then, expecting cryptographic competency from internet RFCs might be a bit much.
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2017-02-16T07:22:11Z rk[ghost]: i use to generater random on an atmel microcontroller senseing random static in the air.
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2017-02-16T07:55:43Z flip214: rk[ghost]: that might not really be random, if enough predictable RF noise is in the vicinity
2017-02-16T07:57:10Z rk[ghost]: fair enough, but try and predict my location
2017-02-16T07:57:30Z rk[ghost]: i don't know where ima be tomorrow. if you can predict it.. i'll be amazed :D
2017-02-16T07:57:50Z flip214: just sayin'
2017-02-16T07:58:02Z myrkraverk: c;
2017-02-16T07:58:29Z rk[ghost]: i concur to a degree.. but in my mind, using the value as a seed.. is about as good as it gets wrt random from my perspective..
2017-02-16T07:59:10Z rk[ghost]: to me.. saying one thing is more random than another is like discussing which infinite set is bigger..
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2017-02-16T08:04:30Z flip214: oh, there's a clear order to that.
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2017-02-16T08:37:54Z iago: jubila
2017-02-16T08:37:59Z iago: ops
2017-02-16T08:38:07Z iago: wasn't for here sorry
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2017-02-16T09:07:38Z phoe_: clhs UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS
2017-02-16T09:07:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_upda_1.htm
2017-02-16T09:07:43Z phoe_: in the very first example
2017-02-16T09:07:53Z phoe_: Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when defining POSITION as a class while in package COMMON-LISP-USER.
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2017-02-16T09:08:15Z ogamita: (shadow 'position) and try again!
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2017-02-16T09:09:30Z phoe_: yes, I know
2017-02-16T09:09:34Z phoe_: but examples shouldn't do that
2017-02-16T09:09:36Z ogamita: phoe_: they fall prey to 11.2.1.1 in the examples…
2017-02-16T09:09:43Z phoe_: clhs 11.2.1.1
2017-02-16T09:09:43Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 11.2.1.1.
2017-02-16T09:09:46Z ogamita: Obviously they were written in pre-CL implementations :-)
2017-02-16T09:09:59Z phoe_: clhs 11.2.1
2017-02-16T09:09:59Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 11.2.1.
2017-02-16T09:10:02Z phoe_: clhs 11.2
2017-02-16T09:10:02Z specbot: The Packages Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_packag.htm
2017-02-16T09:10:27Z phoe_: ogamita: 11.2.1.1 does not exist
2017-02-16T09:10:31Z ogamita: Sorry I mean 11.1.2.1.2 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm
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2017-02-16T09:11:51Z phoe_: yes - but nonetheless, I think that its name should be changed in case someone wants to copypaste the example into the REPl.
2017-02-16T09:11:55Z phoe_: Like I just did.
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2017-02-16T09:14:33Z ogamita: Indeed!
2017-02-16T09:15:22Z ogamita: phoe_: Also, should all the examples systematically be defined in specific packages? (I mean, if we want to make them runnable)
2017-02-16T09:15:38Z ogamita: But I guess this is something we can do in a later phase.
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2017-02-16T09:16:08Z phoe_: ogamita: I would not do that.
2017-02-16T09:16:22Z phoe_: I'd rather make small examples likethat runnable in CL-USER.
2017-02-16T09:16:33Z phoe_: Most of them already are.
2017-02-16T09:16:38Z ogamita: It's an ambiguity.  CL-USER is implementation specific…
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2017-02-16T09:19:08Z phoe_: Yes, but either this, or you need to edit every single page with examples to add DEFPACKAGE and IN-PACKAGE on top of them.
2017-02-16T09:20:13Z ogamita: This can be done systematically with scripts.
2017-02-16T09:20:36Z phoe_: ogamita: no, I don't mean it.
2017-02-16T09:20:38Z phoe_: It can be done, I know.
2017-02-16T09:20:56Z phoe_: But this will make every single example like that less clear.
2017-02-16T09:21:11Z phoe_: Instead of showing examples of functionality, we will be defining packages.
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2017-02-16T09:22:28Z phoe_: And I want examples to be as clear as possible.
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2017-02-16T09:23:09Z phoe_: That's why I want to change the name of that class from POSITION to something else - the example will not have package stuff that has nothing to do with actually showcasing UPDATE-INSTANCE-FOR-REDEFINED-CLASS.
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2017-02-16T09:25:56Z phoe_: ogamita: you know what.
2017-02-16T09:26:09Z phoe_: in there, the class POSITION isn't required at all.
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2017-02-16T09:26:25Z phoe_: all it does is being a parent to x-y-position.
2017-02-16T09:26:42Z phoe_: Oh wait, but I see.
2017-02-16T09:26:52Z phoe_: There's a series of examples that use POSITION.
2017-02-16T09:27:18Z phoe_: I need to come up with a better name.
2017-02-16T09:28:44Z raydeejay: that looks like cartesian coordinates
2017-02-16T09:28:53Z phoe_: coords
2017-02-16T09:28:55Z phoe_: raydeejay: thanks
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2017-02-16T09:29:04Z raydeejay: or a vector
2017-02-16T09:29:07Z raydeejay: but "vector"
2017-02-16T09:29:22Z raydeejay: vector2d?
2017-02-16T09:29:30Z phoe_: raydeejay: we don't want a vector2d
2017-02-16T09:29:36Z phoe_: because we turn these coords into polar ones
2017-02-16T09:30:53Z raydeejay: I have no idea about the code you're talking about, but aren't they the same vector?
2017-02-16T09:31:35Z raydeejay: but if it's example code I guess you want to keep it simple... and cartesian-2d-vector is perhaps too much
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2017-02-16T09:32:37Z phoe_: raydeejay: well
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2017-02-16T09:32:43Z phoe_: you're right
2017-02-16T09:32:49Z phoe_: I need more tea.
2017-02-16T09:32:56Z raydeejay: xD
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2017-02-16T09:35:11Z nirved: phoe_: position -> location or point
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2017-02-16T12:25:41Z phoe_: The examples in chapter Object will need some filling.
2017-02-16T12:25:59Z phoe_: They return classes, GFs and methods - their printed representation is implementation-dependent and often complicated.
2017-02-16T12:26:23Z phoe_: s/Object/Objects/
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2017-02-16T12:47:12Z phoe_: clhs slot-value
2017-02-16T12:47:12Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm
2017-02-16T12:47:16Z phoe_: Why is this not an accessor?
2017-02-16T12:47:22Z phoe_: And "just" a function?
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2017-02-16T12:48:58Z _death: usually an accessor takes just the object.. this one takes an object and a slot name
2017-02-16T12:49:26Z phoe_: clhs nth
2017-02-16T12:49:27Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm
2017-02-16T12:49:36Z phoe_: _death: this one takes an object and an integer
2017-02-16T12:50:00Z phoe_: same about elt
2017-02-16T12:50:13Z beach: Interesting!
2017-02-16T12:50:14Z phoe_: ...or aref
2017-02-16T12:50:39Z phoe_: CLUS - the guarantee of learning new things about the specification every day®
2017-02-16T12:50:55Z phoe_: No, seriously. Why is this an accessor if we have both SLOT-VALUE and SETF SLOT-VALUE?
2017-02-16T12:51:02Z phoe_: s/this/this not/
2017-02-16T12:51:12Z beach: It looks like it ought to be.
2017-02-16T12:51:33Z beach: Perhaps the concept of "accessor" was invented late, and they missed updating the page for slot-value.
2017-02-16T12:51:43Z phoe_: Should we?
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2017-02-16T12:52:47Z beach: While I was about to say the same thing as _death, you essentially found other examples that contradicts this idea, so I am in favor of saying slot-value is an accessor.
2017-02-16T12:53:38Z phoe_: clhs 1.4.4.6.1
2017-02-16T12:53:38Z specbot: The ``Compound Type Specifier Kind'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddfa.htm
2017-02-16T12:53:45Z phoe_: woah, I actually found the thing I was wondering about a few months ago
2017-02-16T12:54:06Z phoe_: beach: I'm searching the spec's first chapter for the definition of an accessor.
2017-02-16T12:54:16Z beach: I looked in the glossary.
2017-02-16T12:54:30Z phoe_: clhs 1.4.4.14
2017-02-16T12:54:30Z specbot: The ``Name'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddn.htm
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2017-02-16T12:54:33Z _death: it also makes it easier to explain to people that they should use accessors and not slot-value ;)
2017-02-16T12:54:36Z phoe_: yes, it links to the glossary.
2017-02-16T12:54:39Z phoe_: _death: xD
2017-02-16T12:55:04Z phoe_: accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer.
2017-02-16T12:55:15Z phoe_: access n., v.t. 1. v.t. (a place, or array) to read[1] or write[1] the value of the place or an element of the array. 2. n. (of a place) an attempt to access[1] the value of the place.
2017-02-16T12:55:45Z beach: It is looking more and more like slot-value is indeed an accessor.
2017-02-16T12:56:05Z phoe_: from what I understand, accessors are functions which have SETF set for them.
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2017-02-16T12:56:16Z phoe_: So FOO is an accessor if it has SETF FOO set for it.
2017-02-16T12:56:20Z phoe_: That's the regularity I have noticed.
2017-02-16T12:56:49Z beach: I tend to agree.
2017-02-16T12:59:09Z phoe_: So, I hereby modify the specification and proclaim SLOT-VALUE as an accessor.
2017-02-16T12:59:44Z phoe_: You, who read these words, perhaps in some obscure IRC logs - if you're from the future and you know that I screwed up by this, shame on me.
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2017-02-16T13:01:51Z phoe_: this thing is amusing
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2017-02-16T13:02:34Z phoe_: as I progress along the specification, I really get a feeling that this standard lacked one final review
2017-02-16T13:03:28Z phoe_: because if I find these things as I simply read these pages after 23 years, then these things could have been found 23 years ago by a guy similar to me
2017-02-16T13:03:44Z phoe_: and I don't have any editor superpowers or exceptional competences.
2017-02-16T13:04:19Z beach: Maybe you do, and you are only now discovering that.
2017-02-16T13:04:50Z flip214: well, I guess they are being trained right now, so you'll be a super reviewer when you're done with CLUS ;)
2017-02-16T13:04:53Z phoe_: ...well, I didn't expect that comment
2017-02-16T13:05:05Z sjl: 1. Do "one last review".  2. Fix any problems found.  3. Now you've got a new version, GOTO 1.
2017-02-16T13:05:12Z phoe_: but yes, I want to put this in my CV.
2017-02-16T13:05:15Z phoe_: sjl: haha, yes
2017-02-16T13:05:28Z phoe_: especially in processes as expensive as X3J13.
2017-02-16T13:05:43Z flip214: I'm really grateful that the reviews I'm doing do _not_ degrade into a loop.
2017-02-16T13:05:45Z sjl: Proving that this function has a fixed point is left as an exercise for the reader.
2017-02-16T13:05:58Z phoe_: sjl: xD
2017-02-16T13:06:02Z flip214: I'm making sure of that by always including "I only find errors during the first time I read something"
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2017-02-16T13:06:17Z flip214: later on my mind just says "I've already seen this, let's skip it"
2017-02-16T13:06:23Z phoe_: flip214: during the second and later times, they're not errors anymore
2017-02-16T13:06:26Z phoe_: they're parts of the original work
2017-02-16T13:06:44Z flip214: yeah, right. still they might be _wrong_
2017-02-16T13:07:19Z phoe_: So: My proposed change.
2017-02-16T13:07:52Z phoe_: "The function slot-value returns the value of the slot named slot-name in the object."
2017-02-16T13:07:55Z phoe_: s/function/accessor/
2017-02-16T13:07:59Z phoe_: s/returns/accesses/
2017-02-16T13:08:13Z phoe_: and obviously change "Function" to "Accessor" in the page title.
2017-02-16T13:08:35Z phoe_: Additionally, I want to include the setf syntax in the Syntax area
2017-02-16T13:08:45Z flip214: +1
2017-02-16T13:09:04Z phoe_: Additionally - but this is not required - I'm thinking of removing the last sentence in the Description.
2017-02-16T13:09:07Z phoe_: It says, "The macro setf can be used with slot-value to change the value of a slot. "
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2017-02-16T13:09:30Z phoe_: It was necessary before, but now it's redundant since we are not talking about a function anymore, but an accessor.
2017-02-16T13:09:32Z flip214: phoe_: please, just fix everything you see. don't let your work degenerate into another committee process.
2017-02-16T13:09:37Z phoe_: flip214: no
2017-02-16T13:09:42Z phoe_: I'm not doing committee processes here
2017-02-16T13:09:47Z phoe_: I'm doing peer review with you guys.
2017-02-16T13:09:57Z phoe_: I'm not alpha and omega, I make mistakes.
2017-02-16T13:10:13Z phoe_: And I'm trying to minimize the risk of creating new mistakes whenever I fix old ones.
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2017-02-16T13:10:31Z flip214 would have associated λ anyway ;)
2017-02-16T13:10:33Z phoe_: And additionally, I want to triple-check *any* changes I make in the specification.
2017-02-16T13:11:09Z sjl: the one thing that gives me pause about that page is > Implementations may optimize slot-value by compiling it inline.
2017-02-16T13:11:09Z flip214: phoe_: how about just _marking_ such changes for now, and then provide a list of links to them?
2017-02-16T13:11:21Z flip214: would make reviewing them en gros much easier.
2017-02-16T13:11:23Z sjl: Are "accessors" expected to not be inlined?
2017-02-16T13:11:34Z phoe_: sjl: yes, I've read about that.
2017-02-16T13:11:42Z sjl: I don't see any particular reason why not, but the spec is big.
2017-02-16T13:11:47Z phoe_: I'm pretty sure aref can be inlined.
2017-02-16T13:11:51Z phoe_: Let me check though.
2017-02-16T13:12:03Z nirved: when there's no such slot what are we accessing?
2017-02-16T13:12:17Z phoe_: clhs inline
2017-02-16T13:12:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm
2017-02-16T13:12:20Z sjl: okay actually
2017-02-16T13:12:23Z sjl: from > http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_eb.htm
2017-02-16T13:12:25Z flip214: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function
2017-02-16T13:12:29Z sjl: > The function slot-value can be used with any of the slot names specified in the defclass form to access a specific slot accessible in an instance of the given class.
2017-02-16T13:12:47Z sjl: "access" there is literally a hyperlink to the glossary entry for access
2017-02-16T13:13:09Z phoe_: "The macro with-slots invokes the function slot-value to access the specified slots. "
2017-02-16T13:13:17Z phoe_: so hey, slot-value *accesses* the slots
2017-02-16T13:13:42Z phoe_: nirved: then we're erroring. usually.
2017-02-16T13:13:45Z shka: sjl: defclass accessors?
2017-02-16T13:13:47Z phoe_: generally, we call slot-missing
2017-02-16T13:13:49Z phoe_: clhs slot-missing
2017-02-16T13:13:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_mi.htm
2017-02-16T13:14:01Z shka: those are actually generic functions
2017-02-16T13:14:07Z shka: and methods
2017-02-16T13:14:09Z phoe_: ^
2017-02-16T13:14:19Z phoe_: and the default method for slot-missing is to error.
2017-02-16T13:14:23Z phoe_: to err.
2017-02-16T13:14:26Z sjl: phoe_'s original question was "is slot-value an accessor"
2017-02-16T13:14:38Z sjl: all evidence seems to point to yes
2017-02-16T13:14:56Z beach: Accessors can not always be inlined.  Some of them are generic functions.
2017-02-16T13:15:05Z shka: if accessor is defined as setfable place…
2017-02-16T13:15:16Z shka: beach: most of them in fact
2017-02-16T13:15:17Z phoe_: beach: uh, can aref be inlined?
2017-02-16T13:15:26Z beach: phoe_: Sure.
2017-02-16T13:15:31Z phoe_: then so can slot-value.
2017-02-16T13:15:39Z shka: phoe_: do we talk about accessor of setfable place?
2017-02-16T13:15:45Z shka: because this is kinda confusing
2017-02-16T13:15:54Z beach: phoe_: Yes, slot-value can be inlined.
2017-02-16T13:15:56Z phoe_: clhs slot-value
2017-02-16T13:15:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm
2017-02-16T13:15:59Z phoe_: shka: we talk about this
2017-02-16T13:16:03Z sjl: shka: we're talking about http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_a.htm#accessor
2017-02-16T13:16:04Z shka: right
2017-02-16T13:16:06Z phoe_: the spec says it's a function
2017-02-16T13:16:14Z phoe_: but I've noticed that it has a SETF
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2017-02-16T13:16:17Z shka: ah, right
2017-02-16T13:16:19Z shka: ok
2017-02-16T13:16:22Z phoe_: so my question is, isn't it actually an accesor
2017-02-16T13:16:25Z phoe_: accessor
2017-02-16T13:16:35Z phoe_: flip214: oh, right
2017-02-16T13:16:37Z shka: phoe_: so what if it has setf?
2017-02-16T13:16:38Z phoe_: your question
2017-02-16T13:17:06Z phoe_: I actually forgot to do such a list as I go.
2017-02-16T13:17:08Z beach: I am not sure I would inline slot-value though.
2017-02-16T13:17:35Z sjl: shka: he's asking why the spec calls it a "function" when it appears to fit the definition of "accessor", was it just an oversight or is there a reason
2017-02-16T13:18:04Z shka: i see
2017-02-16T13:18:13Z shka: actually, i think that was intentional
2017-02-16T13:18:22Z sjl: why?
2017-02-16T13:18:54Z sjl: hm
2017-02-16T13:19:08Z nirved: maybe it's mop related
2017-02-16T13:19:09Z sjl: phoe_: one interesting thing is that an "accessor" could be a macro
2017-02-16T13:19:18Z sjl: > accessor n. an operator that performs an access.
2017-02-16T13:19:20Z shka: because accessor can be defined as symbol that names function that has setf expander defined and has all those semantics defined
2017-02-16T13:19:24Z sjl: > operator n. 1. a function, macro, or special operator.
2017-02-16T13:19:26Z phoe_: sjl: or a special operator.
2017-02-16T13:19:37Z shka: if your are describing a function, you are just describing a function
2017-02-16T13:19:46Z sjl: but the spec defines slot-value to specifically be a function
2017-02-16T13:19:51Z sjl: maybe that's the reason?
2017-02-16T13:20:01Z phoe_: sjl: this is what we are discussing
2017-02-16T13:20:19Z phoe_: why the spec calls it a function and not an accessor
2017-02-16T13:20:26Z sjl: yes
2017-02-16T13:20:29Z phoe_: shka: according to your definition, slot-value is a symbol that names a function which has a setf expander defined
2017-02-16T13:20:36Z sjl: I'm saying that maybe it calls it a function because it MUST be a function
2017-02-16T13:20:43Z sjl: if it called it an "accessor
2017-02-16T13:20:49Z shka: well, spec seems to be indecisive here
2017-02-16T13:20:51Z sjl: " an implementation would be permitted to define slot-value as a macro
2017-02-16T13:21:01Z sjl: right?
2017-02-16T13:21:22Z sjl: (or special operator, whatever)
2017-02-16T13:21:34Z shka: sjl: i don't think it can be a macro
2017-02-16T13:22:04Z sjl: shka: no, it can't, because the spec says "function"
2017-02-16T13:22:18Z sjl: but if the spec said "accessor", it would be okay to make it a macro
2017-02-16T13:22:19Z ogamita: THis is very strange. "The macro setf can be used with slot-value to change the value of a slot. " for me, this means that slot-value is an accessor.
2017-02-16T13:22:26Z sjl: maybe that's why the spec says accessor
2017-02-16T13:22:30Z phoe_: ogamita: to me too.
2017-02-16T13:22:32Z sjl: er, doesn't say
2017-02-16T13:22:36Z ogamita: Any function that also has a setf-er is an accessor AFAIK>
2017-02-16T13:22:42Z phoe_: yes, exactly that
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2017-02-16T13:22:52Z shka: actually, you can even make setfable macro…
2017-02-16T13:22:56Z phoe_: yes
2017-02-16T13:22:58Z phoe_: shka: (defmacro foo ()) (defun (setf foo) (n) (declare (ignore n)))
2017-02-16T13:23:00Z sjl: "functions with a setf form" is a SUBSET of accessors
2017-02-16T13:23:12Z ogamita: accessor n. an operator that performs an access. See reader and writer.
2017-02-16T13:23:17Z phoe_: sjl: yes, a subset
2017-02-16T13:23:24Z phoe_: so function with a setf form is an accessor
2017-02-16T13:23:24Z ogamita: and therefore an accessor.
2017-02-16T13:23:32Z sjl: so if you change the spec to say slot-value is an accessor
2017-02-16T13:23:45Z sjl: you have now given more leeway to implementations in how they can implement slot-value
2017-02-16T13:23:48Z sjl: right?
2017-02-16T13:24:03Z ogamita: Yes.
2017-02-16T13:25:00Z shka: can't we just say that slot-value names both accessor and function?
2017-02-16T13:25:20Z ogamita: We can say that slot-value is an accessor whose writer is defined as a setf-function.
2017-02-16T13:25:41Z shka: and reader is also a function
2017-02-16T13:25:45Z ogamita: instead of some other mechanism like defstruct does for its slots.
2017-02-16T13:25:47Z sjl: and whose reader is also a function
2017-02-16T13:26:04Z shka: what a mess…
2017-02-16T13:26:15Z ogamita: you can modelize it with set theory :-)
2017-02-16T13:26:33Z nirved: accessor is an operator, which might be not a function, and therefore cannot be used in mapcar, etc.
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2017-02-16T13:26:49Z phoe_: sjl: this doesn't make sense
2017-02-16T13:26:54Z phoe_: clhs aref
2017-02-16T13:26:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm
2017-02-16T13:27:01Z phoe_: in the examples, aref is a function
2017-02-16T13:27:17Z _death: the writer doesn't have to be a function.. the reader has to be a function
2017-02-16T13:27:19Z sjl: well, so on that page it does specifically mention "the function aref"
2017-02-16T13:27:33Z sjl: but interestingly http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_elt.htm
2017-02-16T13:27:35Z phoe_: #'aref would fail
2017-02-16T13:27:42Z phoe_: if it was a macro and/or a specop
2017-02-16T13:27:45Z sjl: elt is only ever called an accessor
2017-02-16T13:28:02Z sjl: does this mean that "(funcall #'elt ...)" is technically not portable?
2017-02-16T13:28:02Z ogamita: The function aref is mentionned in the non-normative examples.
2017-02-16T13:28:20Z sjl: because an implementation would be permitted to implement elt as a macro/special form?
2017-02-16T13:28:21Z ogamita: I think the error is in the glossary, and that accessor should always use functions for their readers.
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2017-02-16T13:28:25Z phoe_: sjl: yes
2017-02-16T13:28:33Z phoe_: funcall #'accessor is not portable
2017-02-16T13:28:35Z phoe_: XD
2017-02-16T13:28:39Z phoe_: what the fuck
2017-02-16T13:28:55Z ogamita: (function struct-slot)  and never (macrofunction 'struct-slot)
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2017-02-16T13:29:31Z phoe_: ogamita: for readers?
2017-02-16T13:29:33Z ogamita: phoe_: I don't think so.  #'accessor is always conforming.
2017-02-16T13:29:34Z phoe_: for writers as well?
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2017-02-16T13:29:39Z ogamita: #'accessor is the reader.
2017-02-16T13:29:55Z ogamita: For writers it's different, since you can define writters with different mechanisms (compatible with setf).
2017-02-16T13:30:13Z phoe_: ogamita: the glossary is a mess here.
2017-02-16T13:30:21Z phoe_: it mentions an operator.
2017-02-16T13:30:21Z ogamita: You could have #'(setf accessor) or some other implementation specific way.
2017-02-16T13:30:34Z phoe_: ogamita: #'(setf accessor) is a valid function name.
2017-02-16T13:30:42Z phoe_: you can (defun (setf accessor) ...)
2017-02-16T13:30:44Z ogamita: Yes, the glossary definition for accessor is ambiguous. It should not use the term operator.
2017-02-16T13:31:00Z ogamita: phoe_: for your own accessors, definitely.
2017-02-16T13:31:09Z phoe_: So what do we do with the glossary entry?
2017-02-16T13:31:17Z ogamita: But consider the accessors for CLOS slots -> generic functions; and for structures -> anything goes.
2017-02-16T13:31:34Z ogamita: I think we should mark it for a rewrite. With an ISSUE about this problem.
2017-02-16T13:31:48Z _death: clhs apply
2017-02-16T13:31:48Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm
2017-02-16T13:31:56Z ogamita: Notably, I've never considered the use of macros (allowed in setf) to represent accessors.
2017-02-16T13:31:59Z _death: phoe: is apply an accessor
2017-02-16T13:32:40Z phoe_: clhs 5.1.2.5
2017-02-16T13:32:40Z specbot: APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm
2017-02-16T13:32:58Z phoe_: huh
2017-02-16T13:33:18Z phoe_: this is specifically for arrays
2017-02-16T13:33:23Z ogamita: (defmacro foo (x) `(car (aref ,x 0)))   (setf (foo x) 42) (foo x)    Is FOO an accessor here?
2017-02-16T13:33:35Z ogamita: for the glossary, yes.  But (function foo) is not conforming.
2017-02-16T13:33:46Z ogamita: (it's implementation dependent).
2017-02-16T13:33:47Z sjl: phoe_: no, the last two bits at the end extend it to user-defined things
2017-02-16T13:33:54Z sjl: If a user-defined function is used in this context, the following equivalence is true, ...
2017-02-16T13:33:58Z sjl: (setf (apply #'name arg*) val)
2017-02-16T13:34:00Z sjl:  ==  (apply #'(setf name) val arg*)
2017-02-16T13:34:57Z ogamita: phoe_: let's say for now that it looks like the CLHS is at least consistent here.  Until we find an inconsistency, we should consider that it's what was intended.  Therefore we may have to revise our notion of accessor.
2017-02-16T13:35:19Z ogamita: Hence the definition of some accessors specifically as functions with a setf-writer.
2017-02-16T13:36:33Z phoe_: ogamita: _death: I'm somewhat convinced.
2017-02-16T13:36:46Z nirved: seems that cltl2 always calls accessors "accessor function"
2017-02-16T13:37:04Z phoe_: nirved: yes, but cltl2 is not conformant.
2017-02-16T13:37:13Z ogamita: Since now we can use macros, they seem to have updated accessors to operators.
2017-02-16T13:37:51Z _death: clhs getf
2017-02-16T13:37:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_getf.htm
2017-02-16T13:38:19Z _death: getf is an accessor, and its writer is not a function
2017-02-16T13:38:39Z ogamita: I don't know out of the blue any accessor that is defined as a macro in CL either.
2017-02-16T13:39:46Z ogamita: I guess a lot of CL programs are not conforming and will have to be revised… Any (setf getf) or (function getf) shall be suspicious.
2017-02-16T13:40:11Z sjl: huh, interestingly http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_abb.htm answers the "does elt have to be a function"
2017-02-16T13:40:16Z ogamita: phoe_: you should take note of those rules, to write a linter that check for strict conformity.
2017-02-16T13:40:48Z beach: phoe_: For what it's worth, I agree with ogamita.
2017-02-16T13:40:51Z _death: ogamita: #'getf is ok
2017-02-16T13:41:33Z ogamita: Figure 5-8. Functions that setf can be used with-  says (setf getf) is good too.
2017-02-16T13:41:36Z phoe_: _death: where do you see that it's not a function?
2017-02-16T13:42:09Z ogamita: Argh, no!  Again I read too much in it.
2017-02-16T13:42:09Z _death: chcek the link that sjl mentioned
2017-02-16T13:42:28Z ogamita: getf is a function.  It can be used with setf, but it's not specified that there's a (function (setf getf))…
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2017-02-16T13:42:54Z _death: ogamita: there cannot be a (setf getf) function... (let ((x '())) (setf (getf x 'foo) 42) x)
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2017-02-16T13:43:30Z ogamita: Right.
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2017-02-16T13:43:45Z ogamita: Very correctly right, indeed.
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2017-02-16T13:44:52Z dlowe: I would expect it to set x to (foo 42)?
2017-02-16T13:45:02Z phoe_: dlowe: it does.
2017-02-16T13:45:03Z _death: dlowe: yes.. how would a function do that
2017-02-16T13:45:12Z ogamita: It couldn't.
2017-02-16T13:45:46Z _death: my constantia has an agetf variant.. cribbed getf from sbcl :D
2017-02-16T13:45:53Z _death: *constantia library
2017-02-16T13:46:12Z phoe_: Error: The function (COMMON-LISP:SETF COMMON-LISP:GETF) is undefined.
2017-02-16T13:46:14Z phoe_: indeed.
2017-02-16T13:46:27Z dlowe: The define-setf-expander macro has an example that sets the last element of a list.
2017-02-16T13:46:36Z shka: phoe_: you are looking it in wrong place :-)
2017-02-16T13:46:47Z phoe_: SETF GETF expands to a SETQ.
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2017-02-16T13:51:51Z phoe_: tl;dr
2017-02-16T13:51:53Z phoe_: magic
2017-02-16T13:51:59Z phoe_: I keep slot-value as a function
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2017-02-16T13:53:16Z shka: phoe_: can you create ticket regarding it on github?
2017-02-16T13:53:53Z shka: i think we should consider clarify how we describe accessors
2017-02-16T13:54:19Z _death: I think the glossary definitions are ok
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2017-02-16T13:55:21Z shka: it is ok, but slot-value definition is a mess
2017-02-16T13:55:39Z _death: slot-value is an accessor.. but the category isn't so important
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2017-02-16T13:56:01Z shka: that's not excuse to have messy documentation
2017-02-16T13:56:08Z _death: for example, find-class/documentation are accessors, but the clhs chooses to put it as standard generic function
2017-02-16T13:57:21Z shka: imho, if we can do this right, we should do this right
2017-02-16T13:57:47Z _death: (not find-class)
2017-02-16T13:58:56Z _death: well, my advice is to be conservative and only fix obvious errors.. but I'm not part of the effort
2017-02-16T13:59:11Z chronull- quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-16T13:59:24Z shka: obviously, neither am i
2017-02-16T13:59:34Z shka: but it is ok to have opinion
2017-02-16T13:59:37Z phoe_: ^
2017-02-16T13:59:45Z phoe_: your opinions matter a lot in this case
2017-02-16T14:00:07Z phoe_: and I consider you a part of the effort
2017-02-16T14:00:24Z phoe_: the discussion here is pretty heated and your input is quite valuable
2017-02-16T14:00:25Z flip214: that sounds a bit like "I consider you part of the problem" ;)
2017-02-16T14:00:31Z phoe_: flip214: oh come on
2017-02-16T14:00:35Z shka: oooh ♥
2017-02-16T14:00:40Z _death: can always fix stuff.. reverting is possible, but if the fixes are part of the initial version then there's no log
2017-02-16T14:00:51Z shka: phoe_: you say the sweetest things :-)
2017-02-16T14:01:02Z flip214: that's why I asked about some easy-to-find string
2017-02-16T14:01:04Z phoe_: shka: I was talking to both you and _death
2017-02-16T14:01:13Z phoe_: shka: please file an issue at github
2017-02-16T14:01:19Z phoe_: I'm doing too many things at once right now
2017-02-16T14:01:20Z ogamita: phoe_: you have to take the specification (the normative parts) as an equation.  Unless there's an obvious inconsistency in the equations, we have to solve them and accept any solution even if surprising.
2017-02-16T14:01:25Z shka: ok, i will
2017-02-16T14:01:38Z shka: we can create consensus there
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2017-02-16T14:03:14Z _death: it's interesting that there's no mention of the possible of setfing class-name in its entry
2017-02-16T14:03:21Z _death: *possibility
2017-02-16T14:03:46Z shka: clearly, it is not standard
2017-02-16T14:03:50Z _death: shka: it is
2017-02-16T14:03:58Z shka: hmmm
2017-02-16T14:04:16Z _death: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/05_abb.htm
2017-02-16T14:04:32Z _death: it's in figure 5-7
2017-02-16T14:05:44Z shka: well, that's another argument to reconsider how do we describe accessor
2017-02-16T14:05:48Z shka: at least for me
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2017-02-16T14:15:58Z drmeister: What are the lisp functions for getting the date in human readable format?   Not DATE
2017-02-16T14:16:36Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-16T14:16:37Z drmeister: get-universal-time
2017-02-16T14:16:41Z phoe_: drmeister
2017-02-16T14:16:43Z phoe_: clhs GET-DECODED-TIME
2017-02-16T14:16:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm
2017-02-16T14:16:53Z drmeister: sorry for the noise - I'm in a rush and can't find things
2017-02-16T14:16:56Z phoe_: clhs decode-universal-time
2017-02-16T14:16:56Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dec_un.htm
2017-02-16T14:16:59Z phoe_: clhs encode-universal-time
2017-02-16T14:17:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_encode.htm
2017-02-16T14:17:05Z phoe_: is this human readable enough?
2017-02-16T14:17:19Z dlowe: depends on the human :)
2017-02-16T14:17:30Z phoe_: dlowe: oh fine, wrap it in #'format
2017-02-16T14:17:33Z shaftoe: any trick to getting https requests to work in cl? i'm getting x509 get issuer cert locally
2017-02-16T14:17:42Z phoe_: shka: stop fooling around and file the goddamn ticket
2017-02-16T14:17:43Z shaftoe: tried both drakma and dexador...
2017-02-16T14:18:08Z phoe_: shka: you were complaining about me being lazy and not working on CLUS
2017-02-16T14:18:14Z phoe_: now it's time for me to return the favor
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2017-02-16T14:18:45Z _death: shaftoe: I get that with dexador, but not with drakma
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2017-02-16T14:19:15Z _death: shaftoe: after loading dexador, drakma does that as well.. I guess it changes some special variable
2017-02-16T14:19:46Z shaftoe: ahh
2017-02-16T14:19:50Z shaftoe: i tried dexador first
2017-02-16T14:19:53Z shaftoe: then drakma
2017-02-16T14:19:56Z shaftoe: let me reset my env
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2017-02-16T14:20:45Z shaftoe: thanks, that did the trick
2017-02-16T14:20:49Z _death: it has (setf (cl+ssl:ssl-check-verify-p) (not insecure))
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2017-02-16T14:21:34Z shaftoe: well, i dont want to allow insecure certs
2017-02-16T14:21:49Z shaftoe: now i dont trust drakma's verification :P
2017-02-16T14:21:54Z shaftoe: which one is telling the truth!
2017-02-16T14:22:14Z _death: pretty silly to have it verify certs if there's no support for the operating system's certificate authority list
2017-02-16T14:22:39Z phoe_: drmeister: on an unrelated note, this is funny - I parsed this part of the spec a few days ago and immediately knew which function to refer you to
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2017-02-16T14:22:59Z shaftoe: still on the topic of http clients
2017-02-16T14:23:24Z shaftoe: is drakma still the go-to or is dexador superceding it?
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2017-02-16T14:24:52Z _death: shaftoe: I used dexador in my latest project, for its keep-alive support.. but as you can see it's not perfect
2017-02-16T14:24:57Z shaftoe: yep
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2017-02-16T14:25:08Z shaftoe: if/when i have more time i'll dig further into the code
2017-02-16T14:25:20Z shaftoe: https://github.com/fukamachi/dexador/issues/1 didnt fill me with confidence
2017-02-16T14:25:52Z shaftoe: actually i didnt read far enough down
2017-02-16T14:27:21Z _death: still it should use letf not setf
2017-02-16T14:29:27Z jameser quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-16T14:29:33Z shaftoe: ok those notes from the issue work
2017-02-16T14:29:36Z cromachina quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-02-16T14:29:48Z shaftoe: SSL-SET-GLOBAL-DEFAULT-VERIFY-PATHS
2017-02-16T14:29:49Z shaftoe: Load the system default verification certificates.
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2017-02-16T14:31:35Z malice: Hi all!
2017-02-16T14:31:51Z malice: I've got a small project with file X and Y. The .asd says to compile X then Y.
2017-02-16T14:32:37Z malice: There's small function like "make-testing-environment" in X and it uses one function from file Y resulting in error (package does not exist)
2017-02-16T14:32:42Z malice: X and Y have separate packages
2017-02-16T14:33:00Z malice: is there some easy way to not call each package explicitely but only for this one function?
2017-02-16T14:33:17Z malice: I *could* move the make-testing... to Y, but then I'd have to call X package's explicitly
2017-02-16T14:33:26Z Xach: malice: normally, if X depends on something in Y, you load Y first.
2017-02-16T14:33:29Z shaftoe: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html
2017-02-16T14:33:42Z Xach: malice: this is not strictly a package issue.
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2017-02-16T14:34:24Z malice: I guess I'll just move it to Y then
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2017-02-16T14:44:25Z phoe_: I didn't think that I'd ever say it
2017-02-16T14:44:33Z phoe_: but CLOS is fairly simple
2017-02-16T14:44:36Z phoe_: now that I think about it
2017-02-16T14:44:45Z malice: phoe_: it's not that simple
2017-02-16T14:44:56Z phoe_: malice: well, uh, not easy
2017-02-16T14:45:00Z phoe_: but simple in concepts
2017-02-16T14:45:13Z malice: then I believe Java's OOP is also simple in concepts
2017-02-16T14:45:34Z phoe_: allocate an instance, initialize an instance, return an instance
2017-02-16T14:46:28Z _death: phoe: I think it was when I read AMOP that I realized how simple it was at core
2017-02-16T14:47:06Z phoe_: _death: I just realized how simple it is
2017-02-16T14:47:13Z phoe_: while reading and processing the standard.
2017-02-16T14:49:05Z _death: simple to use or simple to implement? :)
2017-02-16T14:49:14Z phoe_: simple in concept
2017-02-16T14:49:34Z phoe_: simple to use... yes, in subsets
2017-02-16T14:49:44Z phoe_: increasingly bigger subsets
2017-02-16T14:50:00Z phoe_: as your CLOS beard grows
2017-02-16T14:50:22Z phoe_: WTF
2017-02-16T14:50:24Z phoe_: clhs make-load-form
2017-02-16T14:50:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm
2017-02-16T14:50:26Z _death: right.. so AMOP shows that it's also simple to implement, if you ignore efficiency issues and certain peripheral features
2017-02-16T14:50:32Z phoe_: why
2017-02-16T14:50:39Z phoe_: why one or two return values
2017-02-16T14:50:50Z phoe_: _death: I need to finish reading it one day.
2017-02-16T14:51:15Z axion: How do I refresh the asdf registry again?
2017-02-16T14:51:44Z malice: phoe_: there are not many good introductions to CLOS though
2017-02-16T14:51:49Z phoe_: malice: agreed
2017-02-16T14:51:56Z malice: e.g. I believe people don't know when to use :initform and when to use :default-initargs
2017-02-16T14:52:10Z phoe_: I began fixing it in one of my recent kraklisp videos
2017-02-16T14:52:11Z malice: or what's the difference
2017-02-16T14:52:26Z phoe_: maybe we need a minibook, introduction to CLOS
2017-02-16T14:52:30Z malice: XD
2017-02-16T14:52:34Z _death: Keene and PCL are sufficient
2017-02-16T14:52:35Z phoe_: no, seriously
2017-02-16T14:52:35Z malice: nopf: we need a good blog post
2017-02-16T14:52:35Z Xach: axion: asdf:clear-configuration, i believe.
2017-02-16T14:52:45Z Xach: PCL is good
2017-02-16T14:52:47Z phoe_: _death: Keene is very hard to find over here.
2017-02-16T14:52:53Z _death: phoe: amazon?
2017-02-16T14:53:11Z axion: Xach: thanks
2017-02-16T14:53:22Z phoe_: _death: yes, but I'll need to pay for overocean shipping.
2017-02-16T14:53:28Z _death: I think my Keene copy _could_ be the only one in my country :)
2017-02-16T14:53:28Z phoe_: or oversea.
2017-02-16T14:53:33Z phoe_: :P
2017-02-16T14:53:45Z Xach: I think PCL is better than Keene.
2017-02-16T14:53:48Z Xach: thought it's been a while
2017-02-16T14:54:15Z malice: Xach: there are things it does not mention though
2017-02-16T14:54:17Z malice: many things
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2017-02-16T14:54:30Z Xach: malice: I don't find that hard to believe, but did you have a specific example in mind?
2017-02-16T14:54:34Z malice: and then, you have to either go to the documentation, or read some CLOS-dedicated book
2017-02-16T14:54:50Z malice: Xach: specific example of what?
2017-02-16T14:55:08Z malice: phoe_: We have Keene's book at UAM in Poznań.
2017-02-16T14:55:14Z Xach: malice: A thing it does not mention that a new book or post would mention.
2017-02-16T14:55:23Z shka: i would say Keene is pretty good
2017-02-16T14:55:44Z shka: but as introduction to CL? Nah, PCL is way better
2017-02-16T14:56:04Z Xach: well, keene is focused on CLOS, and PCL is more general. But I think PCL's CLOS bits are better than Keene's CLOS bits.
2017-02-16T14:56:10Z malice: Xach: I am just finishing reading Keene's and I like that it has many examples. There are many things not mentioned like difference between :default-initargs and :initform, I believe custom method combination's not there too,
2017-02-16T14:56:12Z varjag: Xach: i feel cl-video is ready for quicklisp now
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2017-02-16T14:56:40Z malice: PCL might be better to get you started with CLOS relatively quickly, but to delve depeer, Keene's better
2017-02-16T14:56:46Z _death: Keene was written before CLOS was finalized, so there are some minor issues
2017-02-16T14:56:56Z shka: i agree that we could use modern book about clos
2017-02-16T14:56:59Z malice: _death: like?
2017-02-16T14:56:59Z Xach: varjag: cool! if you open a github issue i will add it.
2017-02-16T14:57:10Z _death: malice: heh, I don't remember off the top of my mind
2017-02-16T14:57:25Z malice: _death: I found that most of the book is okay. Compiles, etc.
2017-02-16T14:57:33Z _death: malice: yes
2017-02-16T14:57:38Z shka: malice: for instance sometimes it refers to generic functions that in fact are just functions in existing implementations
2017-02-16T14:57:52Z phoe_: malice: you lucky bastard
2017-02-16T14:58:00Z malice: The things I had a problem was only scratching the surface of the anonymous classes. It just tells you "we have anonymous classes". You don't know how to use them, what use do they have(if any at all), etc.
2017-02-16T14:58:44Z shka: anyway, I still see large hole in the object oriented lisp books
2017-02-16T14:58:51Z malice: phoe_: We might not have Lisp scientific group in here, but we have Lisp books! ;)
2017-02-16T14:59:08Z shka: there is PCL, there is very old Keene, and there is AMOP
2017-02-16T14:59:09Z _death: malice: I guess for example if you want to take a bunch of mixins and create a subclass of them.. I think Naggum had a macro for that (but he didn't use anonymous classes)
2017-02-16T14:59:16Z phoe_: malice: you don't have any Lisp groups, send the books to us
2017-02-16T14:59:28Z phoe_: ;D
2017-02-16T14:59:39Z Xach: phoe_: where is it?
2017-02-16T14:59:40Z malice: phoe_: I don't have any Lisp groups. Send the groups to me! :D
2017-02-16T14:59:59Z phoe_: Xach: where is what?
2017-02-16T15:00:07Z Xach: The tragic land without Keene
2017-02-16T15:00:23Z phoe_: Poland
2017-02-16T15:00:32Z phoe_: but hey, Poland has a Keene
2017-02-16T15:00:35Z phoe_: malice mentioned it
2017-02-16T15:00:38Z shka: well, anyway
2017-02-16T15:01:06Z shka: Keene is important because it occupies niche that nobody seems to address
2017-02-16T15:01:20Z _death: could also read some nice historical papers
2017-02-16T15:01:21Z shka: which is pity if you ask me
2017-02-16T15:01:22Z Xach: a tutorial introduction to clos?
2017-02-16T15:01:39Z sjl: Now that I think about it I might also have the only copy of Keene's book in my current country...
2017-02-16T15:01:45Z shka: well, introduction to clos in PCL is fine
2017-02-16T15:02:07Z shka: but it is not complete overview
2017-02-16T15:02:23Z shka: which is what Keene is doing
2017-02-16T15:02:26Z shka: or at least trying
2017-02-16T15:03:04Z malice: Welcome to the Land of Lisp, where having a book on it makes you special in your country.
2017-02-16T15:03:14Z malice: pun intended
2017-02-16T15:04:10Z phoe_: (defun get-a-lisp-book (person) (locally (proclaim `(special ,person))))
2017-02-16T15:04:29Z _death: http://dreamsongs.com/CLOS.html for example.. or papers about (New) Flavors
2017-02-16T15:04:39Z sjl: actually half my bookshelf is probably unique here, lol
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2017-02-16T15:07:12Z Younder: There is little hand holding in Lisp, you learn by personal experience. Those who work hard at it like pjb or xach get quite good. Those who do not lime  (and I expect you) remain crap
2017-02-16T15:07:38Z Younder: lime = like me
2017-02-16T15:08:15Z varjag: don't sell yourself short
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2017-02-16T15:11:15Z Younder: well I know xach's opinion on that subject
2017-02-16T15:11:59Z malice: Is there a system in quicklisp that allows you to go into a temporary package to experiment?
2017-02-16T15:12:02Z malice: and then go back?
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2017-02-16T15:12:34Z Xach: malice: when i want to do that, i just do it manually. i haven't heard about something to make it easier.
2017-02-16T15:12:58Z malice: Xach: because I often like to do that and created a small(yeah, it's really small) package to do that
2017-02-16T15:13:09Z malice: and I'm wondering if I should and could put it in QL
2017-02-16T15:13:33Z Younder: Anyhow I am in the wonderful world of Raspi drivers at the moment. Nothing works. Luckily I am quite good with hardware and C. (spendt more time on that)
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2017-02-16T15:18:33Z Younder: It is true that Lisp can accumalate a lot of junk if you use it extensivly without using packages. The lazy boy's way is to just quit the session and start over. Cutting and pasting the pieces you want to keep, of course.
2017-02-16T15:19:13Z phoe_: Younder: when you use it as a development environment, yes.
2017-02-16T15:19:39Z phoe_: It is actually a part of my workflow, codecodecodecodecode, then step back, save the important stuff, slime-restart-inferior-lisp, make sure everything loads, make sure all unit tests pass.
2017-02-16T15:19:48Z phoe_: I've caught countless bugs this way.
2017-02-16T15:19:50Z Younder: Lisp is in some ways a crude language. But the interaction between CL and emacs is really something quite magic.
2017-02-16T15:20:02Z phoe_: Younder: it's interaction between Lisp and Lisp.
2017-02-16T15:20:30Z phoe_: Younder: but I don't know what you mean by crude. (TAGBODY 10 (PRINT "HELLO") 20 (GO 10)) is a pinnacle of modern programming technology.
2017-02-16T15:20:44Z Younder: lol
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2017-02-16T15:22:39Z Xach: malice: I do not generally filter projects for utility or sensibility
2017-02-16T15:22:55Z Xach: malice: I sometimes push back on projects that are substantial duplicates of other projects
2017-02-16T15:23:35Z malice: Xach: then I might give it a try.
2017-02-16T15:25:17Z phoe_: malice: d'oh
2017-02-16T15:25:25Z malice: phoe_: ?
2017-02-16T15:25:30Z phoe_: put a snippet in your lisp's RC file
2017-02-16T15:25:58Z MoALTz_ is now known as MoALTz
2017-02-16T15:26:01Z phoe_: gimme a moment
2017-02-16T15:28:16Z phoe_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339276
2017-02-16T15:28:18Z phoe_: malice: ^
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2017-02-16T15:29:12Z phoe_: and then go (playground) and boom
2017-02-16T15:30:08Z malice: My package is better :)
2017-02-16T15:30:57Z malice: But I g2g now. I'll show it to you another time.
2017-02-16T15:31:14Z malice: bye
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2017-02-16T15:52:02Z Younder: pjb is in your camp for sure.
2017-02-16T15:54:01Z Younder: On the whole working in a package and the deleting and then reloading the package is more hygienic.
2017-02-16T15:54:42Z Younder: When a package is more than one file there is ASDF.
2017-02-16T15:58:20Z Younder: The discrepancy between what you see and what is actually there bothers me sometimes.
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2017-02-16T16:08:49Z attila_lendvai: any clnet admins? the mail system is down, including admin@co...
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2017-02-16T16:26:52Z easye: (as a clnet admin) @attila_lendvai noted.
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2017-02-16T16:54:47Z easye: clnet admins: mailman was down.  not the mailer.
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2017-02-16T16:59:04Z clnet-admins: restarted services.  Looks like amavis (anti virus) failed.  Clearing backlog.
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2017-02-16T17:28:45Z easye: Anybody know a little of the back story on why Hans disabled ip6 <https://github.com/edicl/hunchentoot/commit/f40bc31f0ff13661c9ce2ec2d5a5cf29ad78ef7f> in Hunchentoot in November 2014?  Undoing this patch seems to work well (borks RESTAS without https://github.com/easye/restas/commit/89b81022813e353a6593710f99f44fe73604a157)
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2017-02-16T17:30:16Z easye: usocket was broken at the time, but has since been addressed as much as was merged back into the Quicklisp releases.
2017-02-16T17:30:58Z jackdaniel: H4ns: (highlighting you so you won't miss easye question) ↑
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2017-02-16T18:31:56Z phoe: why make-load-form returns 1 OR 2 values?
2017-02-16T18:32:01Z phoe: really?
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2017-02-16T18:33:49Z Bike: the second value is for circularity stuff
2017-02-16T18:34:06Z Bike: but now that you mention it, maybe it's the only function in the standard that could use a values &optional type
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2017-02-16T18:38:46Z phoe: yes yes, but why not two values all the time
2017-02-16T18:39:06Z phoe: it's the first function I've seen which has a variable number of return values
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2017-02-16T18:39:15Z Bike: because most uses of make load form only return one value and having to write (values form nil) all the time would be inconvenient.
2017-02-16T18:39:34Z Bike: it might be the only one in the standard.
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2017-02-16T18:39:59Z phoe: Bike: I'd rather have a consistent interface
2017-02-16T18:40:09Z Bike: what? it is consistent
2017-02-16T18:40:25Z phoe: I have a function which returns two values
2017-02-16T18:40:27Z phoe: ...sometimes
2017-02-16T18:40:37Z Bike: if you do (multiple-value-bind (make init) (make-load-form ...) ...) it will work because of how permissive values semantics are.
2017-02-16T18:40:46Z phoe: where the whole rest of the standard returns X values all the time.
2017-02-16T18:40:49Z phoe: Bike: I know.
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2017-02-16T18:40:55Z phoe: missing values are coerced to nil.
2017-02-16T18:41:11Z phoe: but hell, it could at least be explicit in the standard
2017-02-16T18:41:27Z phoe: because right now it's another Common Lisp quirk to add to the long list
2017-02-16T18:41:38Z Bike: "creation-form[, initialization-form]" seems plenty explicit
2017-02-16T18:42:44Z phoe: hell
2017-02-16T18:42:46Z dlowe: make-load-form is totally weird anyway.
2017-02-16T18:42:54Z phoe: everything else has a constant number of return values
2017-02-16T18:42:57Z phoe: and suddenly this function doesn't
2017-02-16T18:42:59Z phoe: without any good reason
2017-02-16T18:43:06Z Bike: convenience, i said.
2017-02-16T18:47:06Z Xach: ignore-errors is a little like that
2017-02-16T18:47:38Z Bike: oh, yeah, it can return variable values.
2017-02-16T18:47:45Z Bike: i mean, so does eval, really
2017-02-16T18:47:55Z Bike: and... values
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2017-02-16T18:55:25Z phoe: clhs unbound-slot
2017-02-16T18:55:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/e_unboun.htm
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2017-02-16T18:55:35Z phoe: the function unbound-slot-object is unbound
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2017-02-16T18:55:59Z Bike: instance, it says
2017-02-16T18:56:05Z phoe: Bike: "See Also"
2017-02-16T18:56:08Z Bike: oh, in the see also
2017-02-16T18:56:17Z phoe fixes
2017-02-16T18:57:54Z phoe: oh, pjb
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2017-02-16T18:58:07Z phoe: I found that place which says that make-instance 'foo has to return something of class foo
2017-02-16T18:58:10Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/26_glo_d.htm#direct_instance
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2017-02-16T19:00:27Z pjb: clhs make-instance itself says so.
2017-02-16T19:00:44Z phoe: yes, right.
2017-02-16T19:02:32Z phoe: haha
2017-02-16T19:02:37Z phoe: clhs documentation
2017-02-16T19:02:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_docume.htm
2017-02-16T19:02:49Z phoe: this is a standard generic function
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2017-02-16T19:03:00Z phoe: clhs class-name
2017-02-16T19:03:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_class_.htm
2017-02-16T19:03:12Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_opsetf.htm
2017-02-16T19:03:42Z phoe: and suddenly this function is on two pages, with reader and writer split, where documentation is on one page
2017-02-16T19:04:19Z phoe: wth
2017-02-16T19:06:24Z phoe: another interesting thing, these two pages are not linked
2017-02-16T19:06:35Z phoe: class-name does not link to (setf class-name) in See Also and vice versa
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2017-02-16T19:11:07Z beach: flip214: Thanks for the remarks.  I will deal with them tomorrow.
2017-02-16T19:13:00Z phoe: I am tempted to merge these two pages... someday.
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2017-02-16T19:24:00Z Xach: Hmm, #x-42 is harsh on my eyes.
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2017-02-16T19:26:47Z pjb: -#x42?
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2017-02-16T20:26:45Z fiddlerwoaroof: The variable |-#x42| is unbound
2017-02-16T20:26:59Z Xach: indeed
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2017-02-16T20:31:08Z _death: (defconstant -#x42 #x-42) ; problem solved
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2017-02-16T20:32:57Z _death: alternatively, (- #x42)
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2017-02-16T21:01:35Z 
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: ccl-logbot jibanes lnostdal pjb bluezone TDT ryanwatkins troydm manuel__ szmer krasnal lemoinem yegortimoshenko Lord_of_Life midre renchan myrkraverk rumbler3_ sirkmatija_ paule32 BlueRavenGT deank Josh_2 HDurer wildlander holly2 holly RedEight raynold atgreen Bike oleo scymtym bugrum Jesin shifty varjag yrk clnet-admins mishoo eazar001 vaporatorius cheryllium dyelar LiamH blackwolf nrp3c cibs rumbler31 DeadTrickster stepnem chronull` mada arbv ramus
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: sdsadsdas pve d4ryus1 phoe_ freehck prole krrrcks Oddity schjetne impaktor copec MoALTz yeticry kolko sebboh`` lambda-smith rippa gingerale shka nirved defaultxr zooey angavrilov mulk heurist_ vibs29 eschatologist yrdz sellout- MetaHertz zacts dilated_dinosaur libreman malcom2073 Blukunfando ircbrowse leo_song sgript jself ryanbw fitzsim gen93 ski isoraqathedh opt9 Khisanth ksool moei froggey marsjaninzmarsa Colleen rk[ghost] Wojciech_K peccu1 Xof
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: mathrick dcluna angular_mike_ xantoz CEnnis91 SlashLife Glitchy AeroNotix raydeejay jdz xristos shikhin flip214 beaky ft sigjuice_ mikaelj eagleflo_ adlai DKordic zkat himmAllRight17 unbalancedparen MorTal1ty tobel roscoe_tw ``Erik tkd nicdev kjak___ Petit_Dejeuner gko itruslove brucem arrsim felideon housel drmeister impulse norfumpit mklk frug72 minion jmasseo anachrome Guest63925 vsync_ malm dan64- LyndsySimon pankracy Cthulhux __main__ loke```
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: Intensity lieven rvirding ggherdov__ groovy2shoes brandonz thorondor[m] foom funnel salva hydraz tmc zymurgy manualcrank payphone Hoolootwo ogkloo fjl ym derrida gabiruh makufiru MightyJoe Urist getha |3b| peterhil wyan trig-ger_ NeverDie fe[nl]ix Blkt DGASAU fluter mbrock dmiles mjl gendl loke kjak__ tomaw chu Tristam misv jfb4 omilu pillton AntiSpamMeta aeth nelder MrBusiness davsebamse failproofshark theBlackDragon djh SCHAAP137 Subfusc joga ec\_
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: pacon_ Fade nimiux Zotan_ koisoke_ vert2_ specbot Oladon cpape nullx002- hjudt beach solene sword Tordek nydel mateuszb_ akkad gabot voidlily ozzloy cross dlowe snits nyingen RichardPaulBck[m harlequin78[m] M-herah M-Illandan pent rotty kjak_ kjak joast schoppenhauer kjeldahl ck_ forgot_ easye fiddlerwoaroof reepca Urfin Sigyn SAL9000 nightfly drot setheus DrCode cebreidian erethon cods fouric sbryant jasom tristero gigetoo Patzy aje CrazyEddy nullman
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: zerac whiteline velvetcore cmatei wizzo pareidolia redcedar rann tfb joeygibson unrahul gbyers XachX billstclair danlentz p_l banjiewen kilimanjaro alms_clozure gz_ splittist l1x asedeno micro__ zagura knobo araujo nhandler alandipert_ taij33n swflint tephra_ kattana_ Mandus__ Xach lxpz mtd kori seg aaronjensen lancetw chavezgu GGMethos N3vYn sohail_ lpaste_ abbe samebcha1e d4gg4d whartung Cymew djinni` ecraven shaftoe Zhivago mnoonan Nazral H4ns
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: watersoul justinmcp larsen sukaeto the_signalman trn clog White_Flame j0ni tessier ineiros Lord_Nightmare phoe stux|RC qlkzy jurov emma Walex drdo sshirokov detergnet borodust emerson o`connor hzp neuri8 e tanuzzo vlnx rpav Nikotiini phadthai azrazalea dedmons alphor askatasuna kushal nopf Guest5935 cyberlard jsnell newcup shenghi dim cantstanya rjeli vhost- heddwch tokik antoszka TeMPOraL tokenrove otwieracz __SiCC__ pok jean377_ jcloud _death
2017-02-16T21:01:35Z names: Firedancer Reinisch mrSpec Quadrescence arjenve sepi`` bounb les Karunamon benny Posterdati coyo larme pchrist switchy marcoecc kbtr mood z0d eMBee aap luis tilpner TMA fluxit jackdaniel Ober axion renard_ PuercoPop tiago amoe_
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2017-02-16T21:18:48Z yegortimoshenko: how crazy do you think it would be to have a library that defines car/cdr functions up to 12 levels (e.g cddddddddddddr)?
2017-02-16T21:19:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: Any more than 2/3 As or Ds generally means you have an architecture problem
2017-02-16T21:19:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, it'd be useful in the REPL, I guess
2017-02-16T21:21:00Z yegortimoshenko: i needed one with 6 As and Ds while working with an abstract syntax tree i got from parse-js
2017-02-16T21:21:45Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: I suggest #'compose
2017-02-16T21:21:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's likely to be better, in that case, to name the intermediate results
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2017-02-16T21:21:59Z phoe: (compose #'cadar #'cdadr) if anything
2017-02-16T21:22:17Z yegortimoshenko: definitely, it could be compose
2017-02-16T21:22:30Z rpav: why not just (candnr 3 5 cons) that expands to what you want :P
2017-02-16T21:22:40Z fiddlerwoaroof: (caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar foo) doesn't really describe intent very well, and is likely to give you headaches if you ever come back to it
2017-02-16T21:23:08Z rpav: i guess that doens't let you specify ocmbinations, but you could also do (cxr (a 2 d 3 a 1 d 5 ...) cons) ;)
2017-02-16T21:23:21Z yegortimoshenko: i wrote a macro that defines car/cdr functions up to whatever level you specify: https://github.com/yegortimoshenko/limousine/blob/master/limousine.lisp
2017-02-16T21:23:38Z yegortimoshenko: just for fun
2017-02-16T21:23:48Z Bike: i used to know someone who just defined a macro so that (cr dadddaaaddda whatever) would do cdadddaaadddar whatever.
2017-02-16T21:24:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: :)
2017-02-16T21:24:14Z Bike: v. useful
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2017-02-16T21:25:17Z cyberlard is now known as Tetrazinii
2017-02-16T21:25:55Z yegortimoshenko: but yeah, caaaaaaaaaaaaar doesn't explain the intent all too well, only path to whatever you're trying to extract
2017-02-16T21:26:15Z phoe: I bet these will be fun on circular structures
2017-02-16T21:26:34Z phoe: (caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar '#1=(#1#))
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2017-02-16T21:32:12Z Urist: .../me checks irssi config
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2017-02-16T21:33:30Z Urist: hm, I though this was my 3rd nick
2017-02-16T21:33:35Z Urist is now known as TruePika
2017-02-16T21:34:03Z TruePika: I was worried something serious happened, to have gone through both my primary and secondary nicks
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2017-02-16T21:37:49Z TruePika: meh, I have a feeling I lost a ZIF connector or have a frayed ribbon on my computer
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2017-02-16T21:47:58Z yegortimoshenko: Bike: thanks for mentioning that cr macro, it's exactly what i want
2017-02-16T21:48:14Z Bike: have you considered wanting something else?
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2017-02-16T21:49:22Z yegortimoshenko: well, i wrote that aforementioned macro that defines all cars/cdrs you'll ever want, but it was never intended to be seriously used
2017-02-16T21:49:38Z phoe: okay
2017-02-16T21:49:49Z phoe: basically - I only have bosses left to defeat for this chapter
2017-02-16T21:50:08Z phoe: mini-bosses: WITH-SLOTS, DEFCLASS, DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD
2017-02-16T21:50:14Z phoe: and the ultra boss: DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO
2017-02-16T21:50:18Z phoe: no wait
2017-02-16T21:50:21Z phoe: DEFINE-METHOD-COMBINATION
2017-02-16T21:50:26Z phoe: this page is so freaking huge
2017-02-16T21:50:45Z yegortimoshenko: are you reading hyperspec?
2017-02-16T21:50:55Z phoe: minion: tell yegortimoshenko about clus
2017-02-16T21:50:56Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clus''.
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2017-02-16T21:51:19Z yegortimoshenko: i'll look it up
2017-02-16T21:51:21Z Bike: define method combination is a little ridiculous.
2017-02-16T21:51:27Z phoe: someone teach minion to respond with http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php and https://github.com/phoe/clus-data
2017-02-16T21:51:33Z phoe: Bike: it is.
2017-02-16T21:51:43Z phoe: the final boss of the lisp spec
2017-02-16T21:51:44Z yegortimoshenko: so, it's ultraspec
2017-02-16T21:51:49Z yegortimoshenko: yeah i saw it
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2017-02-16T21:52:17Z jasom: phoe: are you going to add MOP to the ultraspec?  That has some fun stuff too
2017-02-16T21:52:34Z phoe: jasom: absolutely yes
2017-02-16T21:52:38Z phoe: not in phase one
2017-02-16T21:52:44Z phoe: but later, yes yes yes.
2017-02-16T21:53:33Z yegortimoshenko: when i first saw it, honestly, i thought it's just hyperspec with a few new chapters added
2017-02-16T21:53:57Z phoe: it's an edit of the third draft of the standard.
2017-02-16T21:54:08Z phoe: I'm not using hyperspec because of its license.
2017-02-16T21:55:37Z yegortimoshenko: yeah, just read their license. they definitely should have considered something less restrictive
2017-02-16T21:56:15Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: oh well
2017-02-16T21:56:18Z phoe: we have the dpANS3
2017-02-16T21:56:28Z phoe: we can construct a better hyperlinked specification from that
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2017-02-16T22:00:18Z jasom: hmm, I can't find a license for the mop specification, but CMU says it is "Free use, copying, distribution"
2017-02-16T22:00:27Z jasom: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/standard/ansi/mop/0.html
2017-02-16T22:01:45Z phoe: jasom: http://mop.lisp.se/admin.html
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2017-02-16T22:02:30Z jasom: phoe: that's for the html version which requires no modification, I'm talking about the TeX sources
2017-02-16T22:02:43Z jasom: which are (c)1991 MIT Press.
2017-02-16T22:03:33Z phoe: jasom: yes, I have the sources.
2017-02-16T22:04:00Z jasom: phoe: I also have the sources, but it is unclear that using them as the basis for the CLUS is permissible
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2017-02-16T22:04:31Z phoe: jasom: we need to ask MIT Press.
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2017-02-16T22:07:31Z phoe: jasom: should I?
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2017-02-16T22:11:18Z phoe: https://mitpress.mit.edu/services/permissions
2017-02-16T22:11:28Z phoe: looks like it's the Pamela Quick person
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2017-02-16T22:17:01Z phoe: because I don't want to be the person who is responsible for doing this right now
2017-02-16T22:17:06Z phoe: I prefer to focus on finishing the spec.
2017-02-16T22:17:23Z phoe: if anyone can begin the MOP legal battles, I'll be very grateful.
2017-02-16T22:17:34Z phoe: if not - I'll file a github issue on myself and wait for someone to pick it up.
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2017-02-16T22:22:56Z phoe: jasom: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues/8
2017-02-16T22:26:13Z Quadresce: phoe, Hey, have you written about the "vision" of CLUS anywhere
2017-02-16T22:26:14Z Quadresce: ?
2017-02-16T22:26:53Z phoe: Quadresce: a little bit, yes
2017-02-16T22:27:10Z phoe: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/234693935216197634/278171719896924162/clus.pdf is a paper describing it
2017-02-16T22:27:33Z phoe: why do you ask?
2017-02-16T22:27:41Z phoe: I could produce some more text if required
2017-02-16T22:28:24Z yegortimoshenko: there is also a good rationale, or is it manifesto
2017-02-16T22:28:31Z Quadresce: phoe, just wondering, I spoke about it to my colleagues a bit
2017-02-16T22:28:38Z yegortimoshenko: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=articles:manifesto
2017-02-16T22:28:43Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: it's the original manifesto, yes
2017-02-16T22:28:50Z phoe: Quadresce: these two are the texts I could link you to
2017-02-16T22:29:00Z phoe: the manifesto was what started it all in early 2016
2017-02-16T22:29:15Z phoe: and the paper is recent, with more details and backstory
2017-02-16T22:29:24Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: thanks for linking it, I actually forgot about it
2017-02-16T22:29:44Z phoe: Quadresce: ...now you've left me curious what was said in that discussion of yours
2017-02-16T22:29:51Z yegortimoshenko: :-)
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2017-02-16T22:32:07Z Quadresce: phoe, basically discussions about how to improve the CL community and ecosystem
2017-02-16T22:32:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: it might be useful to somehow make the comments in the spec sources available
2017-02-16T22:32:36Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: define "comments in the spec sources"
2017-02-16T22:32:48Z phoe: you can download dpANS3 and read the sources yourself
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2017-02-16T22:32:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: The things you mention towards the end of the paper
2017-02-16T22:32:59Z phoe: if you mean the comments from X3J13
2017-02-16T22:33:12Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: I don't need to make them available
2017-02-16T22:33:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I was just thinking, it might be useful to somehow link them from the CLUS itself
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2017-02-16T22:33:30Z malice: hi all
2017-02-16T22:33:41Z yegortimoshenko: hi
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2017-02-16T22:33:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Or, at least, have some kind of note that would indicate that there's a discussion about this part of the spec in the tex sources
2017-02-16T22:34:00Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: it would take some time to process them.
2017-02-16T22:34:09Z phoe: fiddlerwoaroof: there's lots, lots, lots of discussions and remarks.
2017-02-16T22:34:22Z phoe: such as "someone do this / okay I will / done on xyz123.1991"
2017-02-16T22:34:30Z phoe: or "this thing done by fkajlfhsdf"
2017-02-16T22:34:50Z yegortimoshenko: while they might have historical value, do they still hold it today?
2017-02-16T22:34:53Z phoe: some reviewer notes are very valuable and show which parts of the standard were unfinished
2017-02-16T22:34:56Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: yes
2017-02-16T22:35:00Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, I was thinking more of comments that would help people understand why the spec is the way it is.
2017-02-16T22:35:15Z phoe: they were for example hesitant about completely integrating condition system with CLOS
2017-02-16T22:35:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, it's probably a lot of work :)
2017-02-16T22:35:36Z phoe: because they thought of, for example, shipping Common Lisp implementations without CLOS.
2017-02-16T22:35:56Z phoe: time showed that CLOS is basically an integral part of the CL world.
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2017-02-16T22:36:37Z phoe: so if anyone decides to ever work on HFR, they might look at the issues and comments of the original spec and possibly make condition inherit from standard-object.
2017-02-16T22:36:45Z phoe: *Hypothetical Future Revision
2017-02-16T22:37:08Z phoe: so - if anyone decides to work on a new standard - I say it's *imperative* they first read the sources of dpANS.
2017-02-16T22:37:30Z phoe: best if they skim through dpANS1 and dpANS2 and focus on dpANS3.
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2017-02-16T22:38:01Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: they hold additional value because we can perceive them from the time's perspective, too.
2017-02-16T22:38:34Z phoe seriously thinks about announcing #clus to the public
2017-02-16T22:39:14Z yegortimoshenko: it is not lively here, is it
2017-02-16T22:39:21Z phoe: but then again, a lot of discussions happen here on #lisp
2017-02-16T22:39:24Z yegortimoshenko: you can use this space for #clus
2017-02-16T22:39:31Z phoe: so I wonder if one more channel is acctually required
2017-02-16T22:39:55Z yegortimoshenko: i'm glad to know that, i'm new to #lisp
2017-02-16T22:39:56Z phoe: yegortimoshenko: it tends to be lively
2017-02-16T22:40:10Z phoe: just remember that it's IRC
2017-02-16T22:41:04Z phoe: responses often take minutes and nothing's wrong with that.
2017-02-16T22:44:51Z varjag: phoe: clos was far from given in the 1990s
2017-02-16T22:45:06Z phoe: varjag: yes, exactly
2017-02-16T22:45:07Z phoe: I remember
2017-02-16T22:45:10Z varjag: many impelentations were incomplete
2017-02-16T22:45:17Z phoe: but it's 2017 and CLOS is everywhere.
2017-02-16T22:45:20Z phoe: s/remember/realize/
2017-02-16T22:45:23Z varjag: right
2017-02-16T22:45:31Z varjag: took just a couple decades!
2017-02-16T22:45:32Z phoe doesn't remember, he's from after 1990
2017-02-16T22:45:34Z phoe: varjag: ;D
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2017-02-16T22:47:56Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html What license is this under? What license are the original TeX sources under?
2017-02-16T22:47:56Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-02-16T22:55:48Z Younder: beach/bitke et al are oltso at #clasp
2017-02-16T22:55:57Z phoe: Younder: yes, I know
2017-02-16T22:56:19Z phoe: minion has the advantage of waiting until they speak though.
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2017-02-16T22:56:37Z phoe: so they will be online when they get the message and don't need to scroll through the chatlog.
2017-02-16T22:57:11Z Bike: i don't know jack shit about licensing though
2017-02-16T22:57:22Z Younder: good chaps, though abit anal. I like the more collegiate DrMeister better.
2017-02-16T22:57:34Z Bike: assuming bitke is me and not some kind of potato based food
2017-02-16T22:57:50Z Younder: sorry bike
2017-02-16T22:58:17Z Bike: what? i like potatoes
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2017-02-16T22:58:23Z Younder: lol
2017-02-16T22:58:24Z phoe: omnomnom
2017-02-16T22:58:27Z phoe goes sleep
2017-02-16T22:58:34Z phoe: night, #readermacros
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2017-02-16T22:59:49Z Younder: sorry bike, made some typo's
2017-02-16T22:59:51Z Younder: s
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2017-02-16T23:00:30Z Younder: I am a truly terrible speller
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2017-02-16T23:02:25Z jubbjubb: re. nyef aroun' recently?
2017-02-16T23:03:14Z Quadresce: recently as in?
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2017-02-16T23:05:37Z Bike: i don't think nyef comes to this channel
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2017-02-16T23:59:21Z Younder: I wish I could type better, I really do. But I fear you are stuck with as is. Tpos and al!
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2017-02-17T00:01:06Z Younder: For the record I am not retarded, I am dyslectic.
2017-02-17T00:01:46Z Younder: sorry xach
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2017-02-17T00:25:32Z jasom: I have last seen nyef about 1 year ago in my logs
2017-02-17T00:25:52Z jasom: 2016-02-02 15:17:28     <--     nyef (~nyef@pool-70-109-146-167.cncdnh.east.myfairpoint.net) has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2017-02-17T00:27:55Z edgar-rft: maybe nyef has quit your logs?
2017-02-17T00:28:02Z jasom: he is still active on github under abridgewater though it looks like
2017-02-17T00:28:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: He is on sbcl
2017-02-17T00:28:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: #sbcl, that is
2017-02-17T00:29:38Z jasom: minion doesn't appear to have functionality for "last seen" it appears though
2017-02-17T00:30:15Z Quadresce: nyef is frequently on in #sbcl
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2017-02-17T00:54:06Z Xach: I wrote "seen" functionality for minion around 2003
2017-02-17T00:54:12Z Xach: the patch was never accepted :~(
2017-02-17T00:54:19Z Xach: maybe 2006? anyway, a long time ago
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2017-02-17T04:49:02Z beach: minion: Do you have any memos for me?
2017-02-17T04:49:02Z minion: beach: you'd have to tell me... my memory circuits are fried
2017-02-17T04:49:02Z minion: beach, memo from phoe: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/clos-mop.html What license is this under? What license are the original TeX sources under?
2017-02-17T04:49:18Z beach: minion: Thanks!
2017-02-17T04:49:18Z minion: no problem
2017-02-17T04:49:28Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-17T04:50:01Z beach: jubbjubb: nyef occasionally shows up in the #clim channel.
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2017-02-17T04:51:32Z beach: phoe: You can consider the HTML markup to have a 2-clause BSD license.  The original text is entirely free to use as the AMOP specifies.
2017-02-17T04:52:32Z beach: phoe: If you want to use the HTML markup and you don't like the license, we can discuss a different license.
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2017-02-17T05:18:52Z jubbjubb: beach: g'morn' && thanks.
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2017-02-17T06:22:51Z koori: suppose i have a method bake(item cake) cake being a class parameter specializer. How would i simply call this method in sbcl? when i call method like (bake shortcake cake), I get that shortcake is undefined. What im geetting t is what do i define variable shortcake as so i can can pass it throught the method?
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2017-02-17T06:23:16Z koori: getting at*
2017-02-17T06:23:25Z beach: koori: You don't call methods in Common Lisp.  You call generic functions.
2017-02-17T06:23:53Z beach: koori: So you have (defmethod bake ((item cake)) ...)?
2017-02-17T06:24:16Z koori: beach: yes
2017-02-17T06:24:40Z beach: koori: So bake has a single parameter and that parameter is required?
2017-02-17T06:25:17Z koori: yes
2017-02-17T06:25:28Z beach: koori: Notice the double parentheses.  It means a parameter named ITEM and the method is applicable when item is an instance of CAKE.
2017-02-17T06:25:46Z beach: koori: So if it has a single parameter, why did you call it with two arguments?
2017-02-17T06:25:55Z beach: (bake shortcake cake)?
2017-02-17T06:26:34Z beach: You would call it like this: (bake (make-instance 'cake))
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2017-02-17T06:27:00Z beach: Or alternatively, if you really want a variable: (let ((shortcake (make-instance 'cake))) (bake shortcake))
2017-02-17T06:27:40Z koori: Just recently i have done reading on methods and i thought using a specializer was required when calling the method
2017-02-17T06:27:57Z beach: koori: You don't call methods in Common Lisp.  You call generic functions.
2017-02-17T06:28:01Z Bike: no, objects know about their types
2017-02-17T06:28:08Z Bike: you might want to learn basic lisp before proceeding
2017-02-17T06:28:13Z koori: sorry my bad
2017-02-17T06:28:23Z koori: i see
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2017-02-17T06:34:04Z beach: koori: You call the generic function with the arguments you want.  Based on the class of the arguments, the generic function decides which methods are applicable and calls them for you.
2017-02-17T06:34:48Z koori: how does the generic function know which method to use?
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2017-02-17T06:36:00Z jackdaniel: you don't want to know ;)
2017-02-17T06:36:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: magic ;)
2017-02-17T06:36:22Z jackdaniel: it's enough to take it for granted ;)
2017-02-17T06:36:26Z beach: It determines the class of its arguments, and compares that to the specializers of its methods.
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2017-02-17T06:36:56Z koori: ok thats interesting
2017-02-17T06:40:44Z koori: what if the generic fucntion doesnt find an applicable method?
2017-02-17T06:40:54Z beach: It signals an error.
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2017-02-17T06:42:27Z beach: koori: Try it: (defmethod bla ((x integer)) (+ x 2)) then (bla "hello")
2017-02-17T06:43:34Z beach: "There is no applicable method for the generic function ... BLA... when called with arguments ("hello")"
2017-02-17T06:44:24Z koori: I see it
2017-02-17T06:45:13Z koori: thanks for helping me understand
2017-02-17T06:45:23Z beach: Anytime.
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2017-02-17T07:36:02Z myrkraverk: Is there any way to check if drakma is taking too long to make a request?
2017-02-17T07:36:17Z myrkraverk: The timeout argument is not it -- apparently.
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2017-02-17T07:37:46Z flip214: myrkraverk: (with-timeout) perhaps?
2017-02-17T07:38:39Z myrkraverk: Maybe I need that, or something like it.
2017-02-17T07:39:21Z myrkraverk: Is there a standard with-timeout?  The one I'm looking at is using a fork, and I don't want a fork if I can help it.
2017-02-17T07:39:39Z flip214: clhs with-timeotu
2017-02-17T07:39:39Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for with-timeotu.
2017-02-17T07:39:42Z flip214: clhs with-timeout
2017-02-17T07:39:42Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for with-timeout.
2017-02-17T07:40:38Z myrkraverk: https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/commit/c0001c1257c6bc7dc193ae5fb80a9c212abf70df
2017-02-17T07:40:46Z myrkraverk: seems to be part of bordeaux threads.
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2017-02-17T08:00:10Z varjag: re
2017-02-17T08:00:16Z myrkraverk: And there seems also to be an sb-ext:with-timeout.
2017-02-17T08:01:34Z loke: I created one that tracks the timers in a red-black tree and a single thread to dispatch them
2017-02-17T08:01:42Z loke: It handled millions of timers if you need to.
2017-02-17T08:02:26Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/common/timer.lisp
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2017-02-17T08:06:14Z myrkraverk: I'll make use of the sb-ext:timeout since I'm not using bordeaux threads in this project (yet).
2017-02-17T08:06:56Z loke: myrkraverk: It's very easy to use. Just ql:quickload it.
2017-02-17T08:07:07Z loke: BT, that is.
2017-02-17T08:07:14Z myrkraverk: yeah, true.
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2017-02-17T08:17:13Z loke: Hello DeadTrickster
2017-02-17T08:17:21Z DeadTrickster: hi
2017-02-17T08:22:07Z phoe_: > You can consider the HTML markup to have a 2-clause BSD license.  The original text is entirely free to use as the AMOP specifies.
2017-02-17T08:22:34Z phoe_: beach: free to use, but to modify? If we want to integrate the MOP reference into CLUS, we create a derivative work.
2017-02-17T08:22:51Z phoe_: I need to run now, TTYL
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2017-02-17T08:26:41Z phoe_: beach: well, I am able to leave my IRC session on. I'll hear your response.
2017-02-17T08:27:13Z beach: I'll quote the text for you.
2017-02-17T08:27:34Z phoe_: yes please.
2017-02-17T08:30:27Z beach: "To this end, for Part II only (chapters 5 and 6), we grant permission to prepare revisions or other derivative works including any amount of the original text.  We ask only that you properly acknowledge the source of the original text and explicitly allow subsequent revisions and derivative works under the same terms."
2017-02-17T08:30:44Z phoe_: > "or other derivative"
2017-02-17T08:30:49Z phoe_: Very good.
2017-02-17T08:30:53Z phoe_: beach: thanks!
2017-02-17T08:30:57Z beach: Sure.
2017-02-17T08:31:50Z phoe_: minion: memo for shka: "To this end, for Part II only (chapters 5 and 6), we grant permission to prepare revisions or other derivative works including any amount of the original text.  We ask only that you properly acknowledge the source of the original text and explicitly allow subsequent revisions and derivative works under the same terms."
2017-02-17T08:31:51Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell shka when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-17T08:32:15Z phoe_: This is very, very good news.
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2017-02-17T08:45:06Z varjag: what is the right way to check if a structure slot is bound
2017-02-17T08:45:33Z Bike: can't.
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2017-02-17T08:49:18Z jpthing: Well if you chose a class instead..
2017-02-17T08:49:52Z jpthing: there ould be boundp one of the advantages of classes
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2017-02-17T09:01:13Z varjag: jpthing: i know there is slot-boundp in clos, but i don't want to use clos
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2017-02-17T09:02:10Z varjag: it works on the structs too but i wonder
2017-02-17T09:02:26Z varjag: if it's still clos-specific
2017-02-17T09:02:36Z loke: varjag: It is. It's not gunarateed to work on structs
2017-02-17T09:02:39Z varjag: i.e. would it work on an implementation without clos
2017-02-17T09:02:45Z loke: mainly because structs doesn't have a concept on unbound slots.
2017-02-17T09:02:55Z varjag: hm
2017-02-17T09:03:02Z loke: varjag: Are there any implementations without CLOS? CLOS is, after all, part of Common Lisp.
2017-02-17T09:03:40Z varjag: well in case of clos-via-pcl for example
2017-02-17T09:04:15Z varjag: structs are likely to be implementation-native
2017-02-17T09:04:20Z loke: varjag: I'm not sure i follow.
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2017-02-17T09:07:22Z varjag: loke: since the slots indeed default to nil anyway it doesn't really matter
2017-02-17T09:08:04Z varjag: but i meant if slot-boundp of PCL would work on implementation's own structures
2017-02-17T09:08:07Z varjag: nevermind
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2017-02-17T09:23:26Z jpthing: You are being silly. If you want to konow is the slot is bound use slot-boundp. If you use structs there is no such function.  Cant you just assign it a nil or something?
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2017-02-17T09:24:19Z jpthing: And see if it gets set.
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2017-02-17T09:26:05Z phoe_: the easiest way is to go (defconstant +struct-slot-unbound+ (gensym "SLOT-NOT-BOUND")) and initialize all struct slots to this
2017-02-17T09:26:05Z jpthing: Is this a parallel execution bit. Because in that case there are better os mechanisms.
2017-02-17T09:27:03Z jpthing: phoe_, Why does it have to be unique. Does he have many such strucures?
2017-02-17T09:27:34Z jpthing: scrap that
2017-02-17T09:27:47Z phoe_: jpthing: doesn't
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2017-02-17T09:28:21Z _death: you also need to wrap accessors then
2017-02-17T09:28:23Z phoe_: but it's fun if you can go (defun struct-slot-unbound-p (x) (eq x +struct-slot-unbound+))
2017-02-17T09:28:34Z myrkraverk: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2017/02/sbcl-testsuites-cannot-prevent-all-possible-bugs/
2017-02-17T09:28:45Z jpthing: i missed the defconstant talked before I thought
2017-02-17T09:28:46Z phoe_: no need for a macro if the thing evaluates to a known constant value.
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2017-02-17T09:29:44Z phoe_: myrkraverk: stassats has been working on this I think
2017-02-17T09:30:02Z jpthing: That asshole, right
2017-02-17T09:30:04Z myrkraverk: phoe_: that's good to know.
2017-02-17T09:30:23Z phoe_: jpthing: you're entitled to your opinion, but watch your mouth.
2017-02-17T09:30:30Z phoe_: myrkraverk: have you poked him on #sbcl?
2017-02-17T09:30:30Z jpthing: Don't worry he is equally friendly to me
2017-02-17T09:30:44Z phoe_: jpthing: I'll tell him the same if he calls anyone an asshole.
2017-02-17T09:30:49Z phoe_: so don't worry either.
2017-02-17T09:30:53Z myrkraverk: I mentioned this bug a few weeks ago (iirc) on #sbcl.
2017-02-17T09:31:24Z myrkraverk: The point of the blog post is more about testsuites cannot prevent all bugs.
2017-02-17T09:32:14Z jpthing: phoe_, you are right of course. I am short tempered and I should watch my moth. (just a recent discussion on #clasp pissed me off)
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2017-02-17T09:32:33Z phoe_: jpthing: don't worry.
2017-02-17T09:32:41Z varjag: jpthing: i want it to be portable across all implementations out there
2017-02-17T09:32:45Z phoe_: myrkraverk: yes, and it's stating the obvious in a way.
2017-02-17T09:32:51Z varjag: there are often surprising caveats
2017-02-17T09:32:59Z varjag: so no, i'm not being silly
2017-02-17T09:33:51Z myrkraverk: phoe_: yeah; the point I'm making is towards all the testsuite fanboys.  Fortunately, I don't have a testsuite fanboy for a $boss.
2017-02-17T09:34:15Z phoe_: myrkraverk: tests are insanely useful, but they're a poor target for worship.
2017-02-17T09:34:17Z phoe_: that's my stance.
2017-02-17T09:34:24Z myrkraverk: I don't think I have the exposure to make a dent in all the testsuite literature, but I try.
2017-02-17T09:34:37Z myrkraverk: phoe_: yes, they're extremely useful.
2017-02-17T09:34:40Z phoe_: I know better targets for worship, you know~~
2017-02-17T09:34:44Z phoe_ wigglebrow
2017-02-17T09:35:28Z myrkraverk: Loki is a good target for worship.  He's the trickster god and is imo, the perfect saint for coders ;p
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2017-02-17T09:38:04Z loke___: Indeed.
2017-02-17T09:39:23Z jpthing: I'm reverting th the old ways ;->.. you shuld have seen con.lang.lisp when Naggum ruled. We are much more peaceful now.
2017-02-17T09:39:57Z jpthing: Now he was a roya a..
2017-02-17T09:40:03Z jpthing: lol
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2017-02-17T09:40:57Z jpthing: I should bring out some of the old logs. Despite his shortcomings he was a brilliant lisper.
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2017-02-17T09:42:51Z phoe_: clhs with-slots
2017-02-17T09:42:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_slts.htm
2017-02-17T09:42:57Z phoe_: I completely don't understand the Notes here.
2017-02-17T09:44:42Z phoe_: Wait. I think I got it now.
2017-02-17T09:46:57Z _death: if you use a symbol, that is the name of both the symbol macro and slot name; if you use a list, the first element is the name of the symbol macro and the second element is the slot name
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2017-02-17T09:49:30Z jpthing: speaking of death Naggum died 10 years ago at age 42 or so.
2017-02-17T09:50:40Z _death: phoe: but it seems to contain two errors in the last form.. (i) there is an extra closing paren (ii) slot-namei should not be quoted
2017-02-17T09:50:44Z jpthing: (intestinal colitis ;) )
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2017-02-17T09:58:25Z jpthing: He went to the same university as me the university of Oslo. He was two years ahead of me so I never knew him. Still a great loss.
2017-02-17T09:58:51Z phoe_: _death: should not be quoted?
2017-02-17T09:59:00Z phoe_: clhs slot-value
2017-02-17T09:59:00Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm
2017-02-17T09:59:09Z myrkraverk: Now I'm curious.
2017-02-17T09:59:34Z myrkraverk: Maybe I should try searching the archives for Naggum.
2017-02-17T10:00:05Z _death: phoe: correct.. "(variable-namei 'slot-namei))" => "(variable-namei slot-namei)"
2017-02-17T10:01:53Z phoe_: _death: thanks.
2017-02-17T10:02:47Z phoe_: haha, DEFGENERIC uses the usual \auxbnf TeX macro, and the code is sane and parseable
2017-02-17T10:03:06Z phoe_: where DEFCLASS and DEFMETHOD have some garbled up TeX shit that is completely illegible
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2017-02-17T10:03:23Z myrkraverk: Oh cool, it's here: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/
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2017-02-17T10:14:01Z beach: varjag: You can't not use CLOS.
2017-02-17T10:14:20Z beach: varjag: Shall I assume you mean you don't want to use standard classes?
2017-02-17T10:14:23Z beach: Why is that?
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2017-02-17T10:27:20Z varjag: beach: clos sucked balls on the most implementations when i wrote cl-jpeg
2017-02-17T10:27:25Z varjag: so the library is clos-free
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2017-02-17T10:27:35Z beach: It is not.
2017-02-17T10:27:44Z varjag: things have changed perhaps, but i'm not going for rewrite
2017-02-17T10:27:58Z beach: If you write 234, you are using CLOS, because that value has a class.
2017-02-17T10:28:15Z varjag: beach: e.g. corman lisp at the time used closette
2017-02-17T10:28:31Z varjag: beach: you can say i write in machine code then
2017-02-17T10:29:10Z beach: Fine.
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2017-02-17T10:29:58Z varjag: this is way too philosophic slant to an ultimately performance-related question
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2017-02-17T10:32:27Z varjag: what's the sound of tree falling in a forest when noone to hear it?
2017-02-17T10:32:41Z varjag: what's 234 in corman lisp if you don't load closette? :p
2017-02-17T10:33:20Z loke: varjag: it'
2017-02-17T10:33:27Z loke: varjag: it's a class of type 'integer
2017-02-17T10:33:45Z loke: (class-of 234) will tell you.
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2017-02-17T11:02:25Z phoe_: clhs defclass
2017-02-17T11:02:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2017-02-17T11:02:43Z phoe_: The second "Reader-function-name" should be "Accessor-function-name". Correct?
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2017-02-17T11:05:00Z varjag: loke: doubt that, because class-of is defined in closette
2017-02-17T11:05:05Z varjag: via typecase
2017-02-17T11:05:22Z varjag: without it it's pretty much cltl1 lisp
2017-02-17T11:05:45Z loke: cltl1 is not Common Lisp though.
2017-02-17T11:06:05Z varjag: it is not ansi common lisp
2017-02-17T11:06:07Z varjag: but a common lisp
2017-02-17T11:06:10Z varjag: it's in the name.
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2017-02-17T11:06:34Z loke: There is no such thing as "a common lisp". The only useful definition of "common lisp" is "that which is defined by the common lisp specification"
2017-02-17T11:06:58Z loke: There are no implementations of cltl1, nor is anyone ever going to construct one.
2017-02-17T11:07:15Z phoe_: loke: actually
2017-02-17T11:07:24Z phoe_: wcl is an incomplete cltl1 implementation
2017-02-17T11:07:27Z phoe_ ducks
2017-02-17T11:07:31Z varjag: there used to be, and many of ansi cl implementations were bootstrapped cltls
2017-02-17T11:07:32Z loke: phoe_: arghj :-)
2017-02-17T11:07:47Z loke: varjag: But why does that matter?
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2017-02-17T11:07:51Z varjag: like above mentioned corman lisp and cmu cl
2017-02-17T11:07:57Z varjag: and gcl
2017-02-17T11:08:06Z phoe_: anyway - I have the aforementioned DEFCLASS question that I'd like to consult you on.
2017-02-17T11:08:13Z phoe_: you as in #lisp
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2017-02-17T11:10:31Z varjag: loke: it doesn't matter, but it began with the argument that not using clos is silly
2017-02-17T11:10:46Z flip214: phoe_: shoot.
2017-02-17T11:10:47Z varjag: while practically speaking, it can be an entirely rational choice
2017-02-17T11:11:08Z varjag: but nevermind
2017-02-17T11:11:23Z varjag: i'll be in my room trying make-instance of 'number
2017-02-17T11:11:25Z phoe_: flip214:
2017-02-17T11:11:26Z phoe_: clhs defclass
2017-02-17T11:11:26Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
2017-02-17T11:11:30Z phoe_: The second "Reader-function-name" should be "Accessor-function-name". Correct?
2017-02-17T11:11:45Z loke: varjag: How can it be rational, when the only way to _not_ use CLOS is to use obsolete implementations that doesn't implement the common lisp spec (and is therefore offtopic on this channel) that very few if any people will ever use?
2017-02-17T11:11:46Z flip214: yes
2017-02-17T11:11:49Z flip214: phoe_: ^^
2017-02-17T11:12:10Z flip214: phoe_: after {:accessor, that is
2017-02-17T11:13:11Z phoe_: flip214: and below, too, in the Arguments and Return Values area.
2017-02-17T11:13:18Z flip214: yes
2017-02-17T11:14:34Z flip214: copy/paste error, I guess
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2017-02-17T11:17:55Z varjag: loke: was cmucl with pcl an ansi cl implementation you think?
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2017-02-17T11:19:04Z varjag: generics were slow as hell
2017-02-17T11:19:14Z varjag: so were they in lispworks and allegro in fact
2017-02-17T11:19:52Z loke: So don't use generic functions then? CLOS is more than generic functions.
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2017-02-17T11:20:27Z varjag: yes, it is also an extension of built-in types
2017-02-17T11:20:35Z varjag: which were there since cltl1
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2017-02-17T11:21:38Z varjag: so since built in types were enough for the job and generics were slow, there was no reason to use clos
2017-02-17T11:21:56Z varjag: i certainly have troubles explaining today apparently
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2017-02-17T12:14:48Z varjag: froggey: could you try https://github.com/varjagg/cl-jpeg/tree/2.8rc now
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2017-02-17T12:14:54Z varjag: er
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2017-02-17T13:04:57Z tarragon: hei
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2017-02-17T13:05:33Z varjag: hi
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2017-02-17T13:08:42Z tarragon: the other day here somebody gave a quick review of evolution of programming, 1. fortran math, 2. lisp to organize fortran results (something along those lines). Since the origins was closely related to data manipulation/math/science I was wondering whether the same can be applied to modern hardware.
2017-02-17T13:08:50Z tarragon: *modern solutions.
2017-02-17T13:09:12Z tarragon: 'Futhark: A Pure, Functional Language For GPU Computing' --> http://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Futhark-GPU-Language
2017-02-17T13:09:26Z tarragon: can lisp be up to this task as well?
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2017-02-17T13:13:00Z tarragon: anybody know a good article about the differnces between functional language and lisp?
2017-02-17T13:13:07Z tarragon: to get a better grasp
2017-02-17T13:13:54Z varjag: you can start with wikipedia
2017-02-17T13:13:56Z varjag: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming
2017-02-17T13:14:22Z varjag: and while lisp was never purely functional, it pioneered functional programming
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2017-02-17T13:17:44Z beach: tarragon: I don't think Common Lisp would have any particular advantages compared to other languages for calculations that are typically suited to GPUs.
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2017-02-17T13:21:19Z beach: tarragon: Many aspects of Common Lisp are inherently sequential, and many aspects are inherently imperative.
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2017-02-17T13:33:01Z tarragon: beach: I see, so lisp is not threaded?
2017-02-17T13:33:15Z tarragon: from bottom up, or are there any plans to do se?
2017-02-17T13:33:34Z tarragon: now smartphones are comming with 10 cores
2017-02-17T13:33:37Z varjag: gpu parallelism isn't really about posix threads
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2017-02-17T13:34:50Z varjag: (and most cl implementations support threads/multicore just fine)
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2017-02-17T13:35:38Z attila_lendvai: tarragon: what lisp can help with in that endeavor is more by the runtime/implementations, not the language per se... they are extensible in standard and non-standard ways, so you can introduce and compile a DSL easily.
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2017-02-17T13:38:12Z tarragon: ok thanks
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2017-02-17T13:41:47Z phoe_: okay, chapter Objects one with just one exception - the final boss page
2017-02-17T13:41:52Z phoe_ goes to grab tea
2017-02-17T13:42:36Z beach: tarragon: The standard does not include threads, but most modern implementations have threads.  It would probably not be a good idea to use threads on the scale that a GPU is good for.
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2017-02-17T13:44:58Z beach: tarragon: But I think a modern Common Lisp implementation could be created that takes advantage of multi-core processors, especially if the garbage collector were written so that it is concurrent, incremental, and parallel.  But that is not likely to happen any time soon for the free implementations, given general lack of manpower.
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2017-02-17T13:47:38Z sjl: Xach: about http://blog.quicklisp.org/2015/01/some-problems-when-adding-libraries-to.html does "Library does not build without warnings." include compiler notes, e.g. "deleting unreachable code"?
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2017-02-17T13:59:21Z varjag: phoe_: is there any way to have a look at the drafts of your documentation effort?
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2017-02-17T14:01:23Z Xach: sjl: no, just full WARNING warnings
2017-02-17T14:01:34Z sjl: Xach: cool, thanks
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2017-02-17T14:02:05Z Xach: sjl: one easy way to check is, try setting *quickload-verbose* to t. if your stuff still loads, it's good.
2017-02-17T14:02:34Z sjl: Xach: ah cool, yes this works fine then
2017-02-17T14:02:55Z Xach: oh, on sbcl, that is
2017-02-17T14:03:05Z Xach: not all lisps do the same thing in that regard
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2017-02-17T14:05:20Z phoe_: varjag: yes
2017-02-17T14:05:22Z phoe_: they're on github
2017-02-17T14:05:28Z phoe_: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data
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2017-02-17T14:09:53Z phoe_: varjag: any particular reason you ask?
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2017-02-17T14:22:18Z varjag: phoe_: not any particular reason, just wanted to check out what it looks like
2017-02-17T14:24:09Z varjag: (and it does look nice so far!)
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2017-02-17T14:25:22Z phoe_: varjag: thanks!
2017-02-17T14:25:31Z phoe_: the sources are in the /live folder
2017-02-17T14:25:36Z phoe_: I mean, uh, not the sources
2017-02-17T14:25:40Z phoe_: the data that's already processed
2017-02-17T14:25:48Z phoe_: various other folders contain other stuff
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2017-02-17T14:29:28Z phoe_: in general, the repo is a mess
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2017-02-17T14:29:35Z phoe_: but refactoring will come later
2017-02-17T14:30:16Z varjag: it's a great start
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2017-02-17T14:34:17Z phoe_: I'll most likely create separate repos for various pieces of documentation once I finish the first phase
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2017-02-17T14:34:28Z phoe_: which is parsing the CL spec
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2017-02-17T14:36:49Z phoe_: the examples for define-method-combination are the *UGLIEST* lisp I have seen in the standard
2017-02-17T14:37:16Z phoe_: heavy on backquote notation, special operators and lambdas
2017-02-17T14:39:11Z phoe_: condensed Lisp magic
2017-02-17T14:39:32Z beach: clhs define-method-combination
2017-02-17T14:39:32Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm
2017-02-17T14:40:07Z beach: It's funny how style evolves.
2017-02-17T14:41:18Z phoe_: beach: this page is so huge, complicated and concentrated that it alone deserves a book chapter.
2017-02-17T14:41:28Z tarragon: beach: thanks, interesting to learn about the state of lisp in regards to cpu advances.
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2017-02-17T14:41:57Z phoe_: it's one of the only places of CLOS that I completely, completely don't understand.
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2017-02-17T14:42:58Z beach: tarragon: Sure.  The thing is that the language is fixed by the standard that dates from 1994, so adaptations are going to have to take the form of libraries.  Luckily, Common Lisp has powerful abstractions for that, both in terms of operations, data, and syntax.
2017-02-17T14:43:22Z beach: phoe_: Do you mean define-method-combination?
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2017-02-17T14:43:26Z phoe_: beach: yes.
2017-02-17T14:43:55Z phoe_: Mostly because the part of spec refering to it is fucke^Wnot very clear and the examples are pretty huge and complicated. And I don't know if any books actually explain how it works.
2017-02-17T14:44:08Z dlowe: The Keene book is pretty good for this
2017-02-17T14:44:11Z varjag: AMOP has some good explanation of it iirc
2017-02-17T14:44:13Z _death: AMOP
2017-02-17T14:44:16Z phoe_: AMOP. Good.
2017-02-17T14:44:29Z phoe_: It's the 18th reason why I need to finish reading it.
2017-02-17T14:44:55Z beach: There is not much written about it.
2017-02-17T14:45:28Z _death: but the mechanism becomes pretty clear
2017-02-17T14:46:04Z _death: also (like loop) it has a short form and a long form
2017-02-17T14:46:16Z phoe_: _death: yes, it's scary
2017-02-17T14:46:21Z beach: The AMOP has almost nothing about method combinations.
2017-02-17T14:46:22Z _death: but it's much much simpler than loop
2017-02-17T14:46:31Z phoe_: _death: what?
2017-02-17T14:46:37Z phoe_: what takes a single line in the short form is a page+ of code in the long form
2017-02-17T14:46:46Z phoe_: I haven't seen loop do this
2017-02-17T14:47:09Z varjag: loop simple form is just that
2017-02-17T14:47:16Z phoe_: varjag: yes, a tagbody
2017-02-17T14:47:17Z phoe_: I know
2017-02-17T14:47:18Z beach: phoe_: _death is just comparing levels of difficulty.
2017-02-17T14:47:25Z _death: beach: loop has its own chapter
2017-02-17T14:47:31Z _death: erm, phoe
2017-02-17T14:48:41Z phoe_: _death: yes, I got it. but loop syntax is much easier to understand than what's going on here.
2017-02-17T14:49:13Z _death: I don't think so.. but then again I read AMOP a couple of times
2017-02-17T14:49:36Z _death: another complex facility is restart-bind
2017-02-17T14:49:39Z _death: clhs restart-bind
2017-02-17T14:49:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_bi.htm
2017-02-17T14:50:07Z phoe_: _death: I'll come back to this conversation once I've finished reading AMOP.
2017-02-17T14:50:09Z beach: Keene's book says ""Because we believe that most applications will fit well with one of the built-in method combination types, we do not cover the syntax of the long form of define-method-combination in this book."
2017-02-17T14:50:15Z _death: but conditions are not very complicated either.. I also like KMP's reference implementation
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2017-02-17T14:52:44Z phoe_: it looks like it'll help me understand it.
2017-02-17T14:52:51Z beach: And this is what the AMOP says: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-combinations.html
2017-02-17T14:53:14Z phoe_: ...
2017-02-17T14:53:19Z phoe_: Thanks, AMOP!
2017-02-17T14:53:32Z _death: come now beach, you know that's not true :D
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2017-02-17T14:54:09Z _death: AMOP lets you see how the standard method combinations are implemented
2017-02-17T14:54:24Z _death: and so it becomes much easier to understand define-method-combination
2017-02-17T14:54:59Z varjag just felt senile for a second
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2017-02-17T14:55:44Z _death: there are also c.l.l posts and code by Pascal Costanza
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2017-02-17T14:57:18Z phoe_: _death: I need to find a somewhat complete archive of this group somewhere
2017-02-17T14:57:28Z phoe_: I'll love to edit it into something booklike one day.
2017-02-17T14:57:34Z _death: there's the ron garett archive
2017-02-17T14:57:41Z beach: phoe_: I'll be happy to help you understand it though.  But right now I am busy.
2017-02-17T14:57:47Z phoe_: beach: I'm busy right now, too.
2017-02-17T14:57:47Z beach: Or, rather, very distracted.
2017-02-17T14:57:50Z phoe_: After ELS.
2017-02-17T14:58:14Z phoe_: I don't need to understand the contents of that page fully to format it - and if I make any mistakes, I/we can always revise it later.
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2017-02-17T15:16:25Z phoe_: HAHAHA
2017-02-17T15:16:32Z phoe_: The very first example.
2017-02-17T15:16:33Z phoe_:  Lock on package COMMON-LISP violated when defining AND as a method combination while in package COMMON-LISP-USER.
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2017-02-17T15:17:05Z phoe_: And I find it pretty, pretty silly to (shadow 'and) to make this work, because then (and 1 2 3) will fail.
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2017-02-17T15:21:45Z phoe_: Wait.
2017-02-17T15:21:48Z beach: phoe_: It is an existing method combination.
2017-02-17T15:22:05Z beach: It's like an example like this: (defun cadr (x) (car (cdr x)))
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2017-02-17T15:22:24Z beach: You would also get a package lock violation for it.
2017-02-17T15:22:37Z phoe_: beach: Then it should be under Notes and not under Examples.
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2017-02-17T15:22:57Z phoe_: The specification has most of the example implementations under Notes section.
2017-02-17T15:23:04Z beach: Interesting.
2017-02-17T15:23:27Z phoe_: The function XYZ, with following caveats, could be implemented by...
2017-02-17T15:23:33Z phoe_: insert block of Lisp code here
2017-02-17T15:23:37Z beach: I understand.
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2017-02-17T15:23:43Z beach: I never realized the difference.
2017-02-17T15:23:55Z beach: So you are saying, it is reasonable that all the code in the Examples sections should be executable like that.
2017-02-17T15:23:58Z beach: ?
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2017-02-17T15:28:30Z phoe_: beach: Yes.
2017-02-17T15:28:45Z phoe_: Examples, as I see them, are bodies of code one can copypaste into a REPL and execute.
2017-02-17T15:30:30Z phoe_: Most of the examples already are like that.
2017-02-17T15:31:00Z beach: That's great!
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2017-02-17T15:46:04Z phoe_: Woah.
2017-02-17T15:46:06Z phoe_: Chapter Objects pushed.
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2017-02-17T16:41:32Z hydan: Is there something like Python's Pandas for CL?
2017-02-17T16:41:46Z beach: What does it do?
2017-02-17T16:44:02Z hydan: beach: Hard to summarize in one sentence, http://pandas.pydata.org/pandas-docs/stable/ has a description
2017-02-17T16:45:09Z Xach: hydan: I don't think so.
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2017-02-17T16:53:41Z hydan: OK, Some Googling yielded https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana and https://github.com/AccelerationNet/data-table not a complete replacement or a direct mapping but good enough for my case
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2017-02-17T17:09:54Z drmeister: Does anyone use docker?    If so, and if you have a few minutes, could you answer a few questions in a side-channel about how I could deploy Clasp Common Lisp within docker?
2017-02-17T17:10:11Z easye: drmeister: We can talk in #clasp
2017-02-17T17:10:25Z drmeister: easye: Great! See you there
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2017-02-17T17:57:11Z nyingen: I'm not sure why AMOP seems to be treated like a wizards-only book. I think it should be a programmer's first OO text, or at least second
2017-02-17T17:57:42Z Bike: https://twitter.com/johnregehr/status/832104459958247424
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2017-02-17T18:04:09Z nyingen: Bike: heh
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2017-02-17T18:35:16Z sukaeto: drmeister: I have some docker+CL experience, if you need an extra hand
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2017-02-17T20:38:09Z phoe: clhs shadow
2017-02-17T20:38:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_shadow.htm
2017-02-17T20:38:22Z phoe: What does the "should not error" in the last example mean here?
2017-02-17T20:39:39Z phoe: Why should it not error?
2017-02-17T20:40:05Z Bike: are you asking about error terminology or about how shadow works
2017-02-17T20:40:27Z phoe: I am asking about the particular comment in the last line of the last example of shadow.
2017-02-17T20:40:57Z Bike: well yeah but i mean i would expect "should not error" to mean it shouldn't signal an error, in a basic intuitive sense
2017-02-17T20:41:52Z phoe: Yes, but I'm trying to understand that comment.
2017-02-17T20:41:56Z phoe: What I understand is.
2017-02-17T20:42:12Z phoe: The symbol with name "TEST" is shadowed in package TEST-1.
2017-02-17T20:42:22Z Bike: so you are asking about how shadow works.
2017-02-17T20:42:32Z phoe: So it is not imported from package TEST-2 when the USE-PACKAGE from last line occurs.
2017-02-17T20:42:50Z phoe: So there is no conflict between TEST-2::TEST and TEST-1::TEST.
2017-02-17T20:42:55Z phoe: Bike: yes.
2017-02-17T20:43:07Z phoe: So there is no error.
2017-02-17T20:43:26Z phoe: IMO that comment should be expanded into a full sentence with a better explanation - that's why I'm asking.
2017-02-17T20:43:47Z Bike: ha ha oh i started trying the example and it fails in the second line
2017-02-17T20:43:49Z phoe: Because I want to make sure I understand this well enough before I write anything stupid.
2017-02-17T20:43:55Z phoe: Bike: how? where?
2017-02-17T20:44:07Z Bike: (find-symbol 'car 'temp), because find-symbol takes a string, not a symbol
2017-02-17T20:44:15Z phoe: clhs find-symbol
2017-02-17T20:44:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm
2017-02-17T20:44:40Z phoe: hahahaha
2017-02-17T20:44:58Z phoe: let me fix it
2017-02-17T20:44:59Z Bike: also, it assumes that that a package with no :use uses CL, but actually it's unspecified.
2017-02-17T20:45:56Z phoe: Bike: fixed these
2017-02-17T20:46:19Z phoe: geez, the spec examples really fall apart
2017-02-17T20:47:57Z phoe: But, anyway
2017-02-17T20:48:08Z phoe: Bike: is my train of thought correct here?
2017-02-17T20:48:10Z phoe: The one I've posted above.
2017-02-17T20:48:19Z Bike: i honestly have no idea how shadowing works
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2017-02-17T20:52:07Z phoe: Bike: this is the probably wrong channel for that sort of questions anyway
2017-02-17T20:52:11Z phoe asks on #clnoobs
2017-02-17T20:52:41Z Xach: I know all about shadowing
2017-02-17T20:52:45Z Xach scrolls back
2017-02-17T20:53:19Z Xach: phoe: are you still on the topic?
2017-02-17T20:57:44Z phoe: Xach: yes
2017-02-17T20:57:57Z phoe: I want verification whether the train of thoughts I've posted up there is correct.
2017-02-17T20:58:22Z phoe: If TEST wasn't on the shadowing list of temp-1, there would be a conflict and therefore an error.
2017-02-17T20:58:41Z phoe: s/temp-1/test-1/
2017-02-17T20:59:57Z Xach: phoe: starting from the clhs page?
2017-02-17T21:02:12Z phoe: Xach: yes
2017-02-17T21:02:15Z phoe: 21:38 < phoe> What does the "should not error" in the last example mean here?
2017-02-17T21:02:30Z phoe: With all of my rambling below.
2017-02-17T21:03:43Z Xach: phoe: do you understand the difference between IMPORT and USE-PACKAGE and the symbols they make accessible in the target package?
2017-02-17T21:05:24Z Xach: It is related to the difference between internal and inherited symbols.
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2017-02-17T21:06:40Z phoe: Xach: USE-PACKAGE makes symbols inherited, and IMPORT makes symbols internal.
2017-02-17T21:06:49Z phoe: Am I correct?
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2017-02-17T21:07:22Z Xach: phoe: that is correct. use-package checks for conflicts at use-package time, but it doesn't "import" individual symbols from the used package into the target package.
2017-02-17T21:07:29Z phoe: Xach: got it so far.
2017-02-17T21:07:42Z Xach: phoe: conceptually, it adds to a list of packages that the target inherits from.
2017-02-17T21:07:56Z phoe: ;; unrelated note: I really love how the spec page for DELETE-PACKAGE literally showcases the whole package system
2017-02-17T21:08:01Z Xach: then, whenever a symbol is made external (via export) in the used package, conflicts are again checked in all the using packages.
2017-02-17T21:08:44Z Xach: shadowing makes it so symbols that would be inherited are not found via find-package or checked for conflicts.
2017-02-17T21:09:28Z phoe: Xach: what you say so far sounds like I was right above.
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2017-02-17T21:09:53Z Xach: phoe: well, you wrote "15:42 < phoe> So it is not imported from package TEST-2 when the USE-PACKAGE from last line occurs.
2017-02-17T21:10:05Z Xach: phoe: but "import" is a precise term in this context and not the right one
2017-02-17T21:10:45Z Xach: it does not conflict at use-package time and is not found as an inherited symbol later
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2017-02-17T21:11:49Z phoe: Ooh.
2017-02-17T21:11:51Z Xach: A few years ago I wrote a semantically compatible clone of the package system to understand it better. The main difference was not using designators, which helped me understand it a lot better.
2017-02-17T21:12:01Z phoe: So it is *not found*.
2017-02-17T21:12:05Z phoe: I see.
2017-02-17T21:12:28Z Xach: phoe: it *is* found as an internal symbol of test-1
2017-02-17T21:12:57Z phoe: But TEST-2::TEST is not found as an inherited symbol in test-1 because TEST-1::TEST shadows it.
2017-02-17T21:13:34Z Xach: well, again, "find" as in find-symbol takes a string, not a symbol. but if you search for TEST, you get test-1::test, not test-2::test.
2017-02-17T21:14:30Z phoe: Xach: haha, I see.
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2017-02-17T21:15:23Z Xach: phoe: then, if you (unintern 'test-1::test 'test-1), and find-symbol again, it is no longer shadowed and shows up as inherited
2017-02-17T21:15:32Z phoe: I see.
2017-02-17T21:15:42Z Xach: phoe: one interesting (to me, anyway) issue is that unintern must check for conflicts all over again
2017-02-17T21:15:57Z Xach: because unshadowing may make two used packages have conflicting inherited symbols
2017-02-17T21:16:14Z phoe: How would you edit http://paste.lisp.org/display/339358 to make it fool-proof? The "is not imported" part is imprecise, as you've pointed out.
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2017-02-17T21:16:48Z phoe: Forgive the markup, I did a quick copypaste.
2017-02-17T21:17:32Z Xach: phoe: Hmm, I guess you could express it as "that symbol is not found via inheritance from test-2"
2017-02-17T21:18:04Z phoe: Xach: got it, thanks.
2017-02-17T21:18:51Z Xach: in general, package system conflict errors stem from one name becoming ambiguous, possibly referring to two distinct symbols. that can happen on import, unintern, use-package, and export.
2017-02-17T21:18:58Z phoe: ;; unrelated note - the examples for DELETE-PACKAGE are really pretty wonderful. and I get to use my new <u> tag for undefined/unspecified behaviour.
2017-02-17T21:19:02Z phoe nodnod.
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2017-02-17T21:19:47Z Xach: anyway, writing my own package system clone led me to find some corner cases where the spec seems ambiguous (shocker) and lisp implementations don't all do the same thing
2017-02-17T21:19:50Z Xach digs it up
2017-02-17T21:20:19Z phoe: Xach: sounds dangerous
2017-02-17T21:20:42Z Xach: it wasn't particularly dangerous, kind of an odd edge case, IIRC
2017-02-17T21:20:51Z phoe: anyway - my laundry is almost done
2017-02-17T21:20:53Z phoe: I need to run
2017-02-17T21:21:05Z phoe: I'll read the logs when I come back - for now, thanks and ciao
2017-02-17T21:22:00Z phoe: perhaps I'll push chapter Packages to CLUS tonight
2017-02-17T21:23:43Z Xach can't find it with google groups :~(
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2017-02-17T21:26:52Z Xach: aha
2017-02-17T21:27:46Z Xach: phoe: for reference, thread in https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&hl=en#!searchin/comp.lang.lisp/zach$20unintern%7Csort:relevance/comp.lang.lisp/iT9olHK7NkM/NOM2ZzuPcDQJ
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2017-02-17T21:30:41Z Xach: and of course Barry Margolin is the barmar of the spec
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2017-02-17T22:39:17Z phoe: Xach: thanks!
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2017-02-17T22:59:38Z phoe: Okay, my beard is officially longer now
2017-02-17T22:59:55Z phoe made the first comp.lang.lisp post in his life
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2017-02-17T23:30:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: phoe: I suspect you have a formatting error here: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:macros:define-method-combination
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2017-02-17T23:56:25Z aries_liuxueyang: fiddlerwoaroof: good site. But there are so many TODOs. Is it build in progress?
2017-02-17T23:56:30Z aries_liuxueyang: *buit
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2017-02-17T23:56:49Z Baggers: aries_liuxueyang: yeah, phoe is working on it
2017-02-17T23:57:34Z aries_liuxueyang: Baggers: Great. It will be a great resource! Book mark it.
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2017-02-18T04:56:18Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-18T04:57:17Z jubbjubb: goo' mo', beach.
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2017-02-18T06:05:43Z beach: flip214: I incorporated most of your suggestions.  Thanks again.  New version: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2017-02-18T06:31:24Z Bike: referring to RAM as "semiconductor" is kind of weird to me
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2017-02-18T06:42:11Z White_Flame: do SSDs count as "semiconductor storage"?
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2017-02-18T06:48:02Z edgar-rft: White_Flame: yes
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2017-02-18T06:52:58Z Zhivago: The more pertinent question is -- is 'semiconductor storage' a useful term -- I suspect not.
2017-02-18T06:54:08Z edgar-rft: But calling SSDs Solid State *Drives* is even more nuts because there are no moving poarts inside.
2017-02-18T06:54:24Z edgar-rft: * moving parts
2017-02-18T06:54:46Z White_Flame: then call them Solid State Disks ;)
2017-02-18T06:54:46Z beach: Thanks.  I'll try to find a better term.
2017-02-18T06:56:00Z edgar-rft: beach: for a hardware electrician (like me) calling RAM "semiconducor" is the most normal thing on earth.
2017-02-18T06:56:03Z beach: "RAM" is also weird.
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2017-02-18T06:56:47Z beach: edgar-rft: Yes, but they have a point, now that secondary memory is also made up of transistors and such.
2017-02-18T06:58:15Z Zhivago: Just call them Solid State Datathingies instead.
2017-02-18T06:58:34Z edgar-rft: beach: probaply the problem is that "semiconductor" is a too broad term for specialized parts in a computer
2017-02-18T06:58:52Z beach: Yeah.
2017-02-18T06:59:25Z beach: Also, I have to figure out what to say about the (perhaps near) future situation when there is not necessarily any distinction between primary and secondary memory, i.e., when the primary memory is permanent and cheap.
2017-02-18T07:10:00Z White_Flame: there will always be distributed computing and remote storage, so there will generally always be tiers of some sort
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2017-02-18T07:21:52Z beach: I improved section 1.3.3, document page 9, PDF page 13: http://metamodular.com/lispos.pdf
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2017-02-18T07:28:53Z beach: Apart from such detail, I think I am getting the main message across, though, i.e., that what I am aiming for is not the Unix abstraction implemented in Common Lisp.  But of course, some people read only the URL and then immediately think that, and feel qualified to comment.
2017-02-18T07:31:11Z Bike: i'm kind of generally skeptical of a s ystem where you can't use your own compiler, but i guess i haven't tried it yet
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2017-02-18T07:33:56Z beach: Of course you can use your own compiler.
2017-02-18T07:34:19Z beach: But installing such a thing would require admin privileges.
2017-02-18T07:34:51Z Bike: well. guess that's not that much different from phones
2017-02-18T07:35:09Z beach: If not, then any crap that comes over the net could install its own compiler with disastrous consequences.
2017-02-18T07:35:29Z beach: ... as is the situation today.
2017-02-18T07:35:49Z beach: ... which is why we have address-space randomization.
2017-02-18T07:36:01Z beach: ... which is now known to be insufficient.
2017-02-18T07:36:25Z beach: ... and which makes it so much harder to write fast and maintainable applications.
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2017-02-18T08:20:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: ASR works as long as you don't do caching
2017-02-18T08:20:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: just stop maching CPUs with caching
2017-02-18T08:20:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: problem solved
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2017-02-18T08:48:29Z beach: Petit_Dejeuner: fiddlerwoaroof pointed me to this article: beach: https://arstechnica.com/security/2017/02/new-aslr-busting-javascript-is-about-to-make-drive-by-exploits-much-nastier/
2017-02-18T08:48:44Z beach: s/beach://
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2017-02-18T08:50:48Z Quadrescence: beach, what 5 papers do you have prepared for ELS?
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2017-02-18T08:55:55Z beach: Quadrescence: Very funny!
2017-02-18T08:56:19Z beach: 1. http://metamodular.com/sequence-functions.pdf
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2017-02-18T08:56:38Z beach: 2. http://metamodular.com/path-replication.pdf
2017-02-18T08:56:52Z beach: 3. http://metamodular.com/incremental-parsing.pdf
2017-02-18T08:56:54Z beach: That's it.
2017-02-18T08:57:24Z beach: The other 15, I will save for future ELS.
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2017-02-18T09:07:07Z Quadrescence: beach, classic strandh
2017-02-18T09:07:20Z beach: Glad you like it! :)
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2017-02-18T09:11:54Z beach: Quadrescence: Are you planning to go?
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2017-02-18T09:13:46Z Quadrescence: beach, I don't think I'll make it to ELS. I missed the paper deadline, and I'd really like to present on recent industrial uses.
2017-02-18T09:14:17Z beach: Aww! :(
2017-02-18T09:14:50Z p_l: ehh, might not come for ELS, starting new job the same date :(
2017-02-18T09:14:53Z Quadrescence: some neat uses of lisp for (real!) quantum computation :)
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2017-02-18T09:15:15Z beach: Quadrescence: Sounds great.  Hope you can present that work next year.
2017-02-18T09:15:23Z beach: p_l: Too bad.
2017-02-18T09:15:31Z Quadrescence: Would be nice :)
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2017-02-18T09:16:19Z p_l: beach: also I already stretched my budget thin with tickets to Google Cloud Next (~1000 EUR for the flights because my leave wasn't accepted fast enough)
2017-02-18T09:16:47Z Quadrescence: p_l, is budget the only concern?
2017-02-18T09:16:53Z beach: p_l: That's unfortunate.
2017-02-18T09:17:01Z p_l: Quadrescence: also starting new job at exactly the same time frame
2017-02-18T09:17:07Z Quadrescence: p_l, you're definitely someone who writes libraries that (many!) people care about
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2017-02-18T09:17:22Z p_l: you're mixing me up with someone else
2017-02-18T09:17:31Z p_l: unfortunately (though I'm flattered)
2017-02-18T09:17:37Z Quadrescence: no i'm not
2017-02-18T09:18:18Z p_l: Shinmeira, now, that is someone that ought to be at ELS because of his works :D
2017-02-18T09:18:45Z beach: Yes, but he can afford it.  :)
2017-02-18T09:20:17Z Quadrescence: the #1 problem w/the lisp community is that no one accepts money in practice
2017-02-18T09:20:46Z p_l: I hope to write some more code in Lisp, maybe in the new job, related to handling cloud automation and the like
2017-02-18T09:20:56Z beach: Quadrescence: What do you mean?
2017-02-18T09:21:19Z p_l: I've got some... "bootstrapping" issues, as I'm starting to feel the old mainstays of drakma etc. aren't enough
2017-02-18T09:21:27Z Quadrescence: beach, I mean that even [some] high-profile compiler developers are unwilling to accept payment in exchange for features.
2017-02-18T09:21:43Z Quadrescence: beach, Some people's high quality personal projects have no decent way to transmit cash.
2017-02-18T09:21:53Z beach: I see.
2017-02-18T09:22:01Z beach: Though, I have been paying jackdaniel for McCLIM maintenance, and now I am paying Bike for some work on SICL.
2017-02-18T09:22:03Z Quadrescence: Even if you ask!
2017-02-18T09:22:18Z Quadrescence: Some people, of course.
2017-02-18T09:22:30Z beach: I understand what you are saying.
2017-02-18T09:22:49Z Quadrescence: I'm personally happy to give money to SICL/McCLIM (esp. if you PM me), but that's not generically true.
2017-02-18T09:23:20Z beach: Well, in general, the problem is not money, but available manpower.
2017-02-18T09:23:29Z fourier: Quadrescence: you can always donate to quicklisp
2017-02-18T09:23:32Z beach: I wouldn't know what to do with money for SICL.
2017-02-18T09:23:32Z Quadrescence: I don't even think that's the issue.
2017-02-18T09:23:53Z beach: Hmm.
2017-02-18T09:24:00Z Quadrescence: fourier, I of course pay or represent the payment of money to QL
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2017-02-18T09:24:32Z beach: So what do you think the issue is?
2017-02-18T09:24:48Z beach: Maybe it can be fixed.
2017-02-18T09:25:06Z Quadrescence: I think there's no infrastructure for acceptance/commitment
2017-02-18T09:25:41Z flip214: beach: you're welcome!
2017-02-18T09:25:44Z fourier: Quadrescence: the specific features implementation costs. average pay per hour in EU (there is majority of CL developers) is ~74EURO per hour. to implement some feature takes days if not weeks. Just count how profitabel it could be for developers to work on it full time on donations ;(
2017-02-18T09:26:10Z Quadrescence: a lot of people dont want to pay per hour
2017-02-18T09:26:17Z Quadrescence: they want an exgange
2017-02-18T09:26:22Z Quadrescence: exchange*
2017-02-18T09:26:42Z flip214: IMO a lispos nowadays (unless written for some specialized hardware) would be practical only as process 1 (or so, because of keyboard layout etc.) below Linux/*BSD/etc.
2017-02-18T09:26:54Z fourier: Quadrescence: try order features from CCL developers
2017-02-18T09:27:04Z flip214: rewriting all the hardware stuff doesn't seem productive, if there's already a working solution for that
2017-02-18T09:27:14Z Quadrescence: fourier, I'm familiar with that avenue of support.
2017-02-18T09:27:32Z flip214: I understand the wish - in the bigger picture - but my engineer mind keeps interfering ;)
2017-02-18T09:27:56Z fourier: Quadrescence: alternatively there is a https://www.bountysource.com/
2017-02-18T09:28:02Z beach: flip214: I think a system that runs as a Linux process would be very usable.
2017-02-18T09:28:18Z beach: flip214: The "bare metal" issue is overrated in my opinion.
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2017-02-18T09:28:27Z flip214: beach: yeah, same for me.
2017-02-18T09:28:31Z Quadrescence: fourier, that's not how industry players pay
2017-02-18T09:29:04Z fourier: for industry players see rates above :)
2017-02-18T09:30:38Z Quadrescence: I don't know if you understand
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2017-02-18T09:33:09Z fourier: Quadrescence: I see the following: the donations one could always make, but the community is so small so probably it will not worth the trouble to set it up. The commercial support/features implementation is expensive. nothing in the middle - the only in the middle could be a support from companies for things like Common Lisp Foundation, but i'm not sure how well are they
2017-02-18T09:33:47Z Quadrescence: fourier, most companies aren't willing to make "donations", unfortunately.
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2017-02-18T09:36:32Z fourier: Quadrescence: I believe these donations to foundations are the way for companies to keep infrastructure alive - to these "foundations" (there are plenty of them around some technologies)
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2017-02-18T09:38:56Z Quadrescence: fourier, that's true in principle
2017-02-18T09:38:59Z fourier: So the question is how important for companies to keep the CL infrastructure alive, and looks like the companies have found their own ways to have it alive
2017-02-18T09:39:08Z Quadrescence: but it's not what companies look for in practice
2017-02-18T09:39:13Z p_l: fourier: 74 EUR/hour? that's... pretty nice wage
2017-02-18T09:39:23Z p_l: read it as "more than Credit Suisse is going to pay me)
2017-02-18T09:39:38Z Quadrescence: "let's dump money into X so that maybe Y stays alive" is absolutely *NOT* convincing to any sort of management.
2017-02-18T09:39:41Z fourier: p_l: rate for consultants in Germany
2017-02-18T09:40:05Z Quadrescence: I don't care what your unadjusted supply-demand Lisp rate is.
2017-02-18T09:40:09Z beach: Quadrescence: So do you think we need some independent association that could play the role of arbiter between demand and supply?
2017-02-18T09:40:50Z p_l: maybe some form of foundation that can offer easy form contracts to people
2017-02-18T09:40:51Z Quadrescence: beach, I wish ALU was in that position, but the infrastructure + agreement with independent entities isn't in place, and is also complex to set up.
2017-02-18T09:41:24Z Quadrescence: (P.S., there's an ALU board opening. Message me if you're interested + have some time for these community efforts.)
2017-02-18T09:41:24Z beach: There is also the CLF in Europe.
2017-02-18T09:42:05Z p_l: it's probably only form where I could see polish "comission contract" being sensible instead of skivving the law, heh
2017-02-18T09:42:34Z Quadrescence: p_l, what do you mean?
2017-02-18T09:42:50Z p_l: there's significant issue for people who aren't yet setup as company or similar professional to accept money legally for contract work (especially with international quagmires)
2017-02-18T09:43:01Z beach: Quadrescence: I am not crazy about the idea of becoming a board member, but I'll think about it.
2017-02-18T09:43:18Z p_l: I, having a registered 1-person company, can simply give an invoice
2017-02-18T09:43:42Z p_l: but those who don't, in poland, require either a) specific type of contract (commission contracts) or employment
2017-02-18T09:43:54Z Quadrescence: beach, it mostly requires some form of grit and tenacity
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2017-02-18T09:44:09Z Quadrescence: to "get things done" and "put money in the right direction"
2017-02-18T09:45:16Z Quadrescence: with a commitment of >= 1 hr / month
2017-02-18T09:45:31Z beach: Let me start by looking at the ALU and see what they are up to.
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2017-02-18T09:45:47Z Quadrescence: beach, unfortunately the site is down, but I can answer questions on it
2017-02-18T09:46:22Z beach: OK.  I don't have the right ones at the moment, but I will.
2017-02-18T09:46:27Z Quadrescence: there are two priorities right now for the ALU: to come up with and support valuable community efforts, and to plan the ILC through whatever means necessary
2017-02-18T09:46:52Z Quadrescence: #1 is particularly hard because of fragmentation + lack of monetary cooperation
2017-02-18T09:47:04Z Quadrescence: #2 is just usual "someone needs to get work done"
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2017-02-18T09:49:27Z Quadrescence: (monetary cooperation <=> acceptance/agreement between suppliers and demanders)
2017-02-18T09:49:46Z Quadrescence: If these types of issues interest you, I encourage you to message me. :)
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2017-02-18T10:05:18Z beach: I'll give it some thought.
2017-02-18T10:05:26Z beach: Thanks for the information.
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2017-02-18T10:27:57Z jurov: <beach> [09:28:18] flip214: The "bare metal" issue is overrated in my opinion. << i disagreee, at least if you want decently-performant graphics :/
2017-02-18T10:30:38Z jurov: either way or other one has to import some of opengl, directx, html5, X11, vnc,... yuck.
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2017-02-18T10:33:04Z jurov: and btw, i'm in eastern eu and would be fine for 30e/hr... except i'm rather lazy and don't have any lisp portfolio (yet).
2017-02-18T10:33:42Z phoe: minion: memo for fiddlerwoaroof: yes, I have a formatting error there, just like on multiple other pages. I'll give these pages a review once I finishing bulk-changing them - right now I'm just sprinting to push them upstream in any state and fix them later.
2017-02-18T10:33:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell fiddlerwoaroof when he/she/it next speaks.
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2017-02-18T10:37:55Z Quadrescence: jurov, like i said, a lot of companies which are (rarely!) betting on niche tech want to pay an hourly rate
2017-02-18T10:38:07Z Quadrescence: PROTIP! charge a fixed price for your lisp service
2017-02-18T10:40:23Z p_l: Fixed price for hours, or fixed-price projects? The latter in me experience aren't good
2017-02-18T10:41:26Z Quadrescence: projects with sufficient scope
2017-02-18T10:42:17Z jurov: ty for suggestions. it will be like last resort, /me got some passive income from my bitcoin stuff recently and it is spoiling me (^ ^)
2017-02-18T10:42:39Z Quadrescence: lisp is more fun to get income from
2017-02-18T10:43:08Z jurov: ..once you get the gist of it.
2017-02-18T10:44:05Z Quadrescence: just type parentheses
2017-02-18T10:44:11Z Quadrescence: and you'll probably be successful
2017-02-18T10:44:45Z jurov: heh. but yes, i had a blast doing cl-conspack based RPC library, maybe it will come out as something production-worthy to show
2017-02-18T10:47:26Z Quadrescence: production-worthy Lisp code is a rarity and is also a great attraction to being paid
2017-02-18T10:50:56Z pylix: which dialect of Lisp has developed libraries and is closest to the original lisp?
2017-02-18T10:51:12Z Quadrescence: pylix, probably none
2017-02-18T10:51:21Z Quadrescence: tech has evolved so much
2017-02-18T10:51:23Z pylix: aww
2017-02-18T10:52:31Z beach: pylix: This channel is about Common Lisp, which now has a lot of libraries thanks to Quicklisp.
2017-02-18T10:53:19Z XachX: Merely the conduit, not the cause!
2017-02-18T10:53:35Z beach: Right.
2017-02-18T10:53:54Z beach: "Merely" is a bit too modest, though.
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2017-02-18T10:57:20Z pylix: does that mean that commonlisp is the true successor to lisp? I'm assuming scheme has it's own channel
2017-02-18T10:57:26Z pylix: its*
2017-02-18T10:57:43Z phoe: pylix: #scheme, yes
2017-02-18T10:57:45Z Quadrescence: common lisp is a good dialect of lisp to write programs in
2017-02-18T10:57:59Z phoe: pylix: depends on what you mean by "true successor to lisp"
2017-02-18T10:58:04Z beach: pylix: Since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, you won't get an unbiased answer to questions about different dialects and how they compare.
2017-02-18T10:58:21Z phoe: pjb` has proof somewhere that you can still run code from LISP 1.5 on modern Common Lisp
2017-02-18T10:58:33Z beach: pylix: Yes, Common Lisp is the only true Lisp dialect, and it is the best programming language ever created.
2017-02-18T10:58:34Z Quadrescence: meh, "proof"
2017-02-18T10:58:55Z pylix: I understand I'm just pointing out that this is still #lisp and not #commonlisp
2017-02-18T10:58:57Z Quadrescence: dont lie to the children about lisp :D
2017-02-18T10:59:11Z beach: pylix: That's just a name.  This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-02-18T10:59:14Z Quadrescence: pylix, the term "lisp" almost always means common lisp
2017-02-18T10:59:18Z beach: pylix: Get used to it.
2017-02-18T10:59:22Z Quadrescence: so its ok
2017-02-18T10:59:31Z phoe: Quadrescence: proof, eh, copypastable code that you can run
2017-02-18T11:00:12Z Quadrescence: meh, just let cl be cl and lisp 1.5 be antiquated history
2017-02-18T11:00:18Z phoe: anyway - morning, everyone
2017-02-18T11:00:25Z beach: Hello phoe.
2017-02-18T11:00:52Z Quadrescence: #python doesn't direct people to MODULA 2 :D
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2017-02-18T11:50:54Z fiveop: Is there a standard function I am missing that would allow me to copy a vector to the end of another (adjustable) vector? Essentially, I want to achieve the following: (defun example (adjustable-string string) (dotimes (i (length string)) (vector-push-extend (elt string i) adjustable-string)))
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2017-02-18T11:54:49Z pjb: (let ((v1 (make-array 3 :adjustable t :initial-contents '(1 2 3)))) (replace-subseq #(4 5 6) v1 3 3) v1) #| --> #(1 2 3 4 5 6) |#
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2017-02-18T11:55:02Z pjb: (symbol-package 'replace-subseq) #| --> #<Package "COM.INFORMATIMAGO.COMMON-LISP.CESARUM.SEQUENCE"> |#
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2017-02-18T11:55:51Z pjb: It doesn't need to be adjustable either, works with fill-pointers or plain vectors (then returns a new one).
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2017-02-18T11:59:12Z fiveop: thanks
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2017-02-18T13:35:20Z AlphaOmega: hi, can anyone help me understand why a sbcl says "EOF encountered" while interpreting a program
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2017-02-18T13:37:44Z |3b|: usually it means it reached end of file before whatever it was expecting
2017-02-18T13:38:05Z |3b|: closing parentheses is a common thing for it to fail to find, or closing quotes on a string, etc
2017-02-18T13:38:14Z AlphaOmega: that's what i don't understand.. how can sbcl say that right after i finish defining global variables
2017-02-18T13:39:26Z |3b|: without seeing the code, the best i can suggest is check your syntax (and/or configure your editor to do so for you as much as possible)
2017-02-18T13:39:43Z AlphaOmega: i have
2017-02-18T13:40:00Z AlphaOmega: how can a list of (defvar <name> <integer_value>) cause this?
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2017-02-18T13:40:40Z loke: AlphaOmega: You have to share the file for any of us to be able to explain
2017-02-18T13:40:43Z |3b|: that probably shouldn't, unless there is something odd in one of the names or values, or if that isn't actually what it is in some subtle way
2017-02-18T13:41:08Z AlphaOmega: on it, retrieving file
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2017-02-18T13:43:10Z Xach: AlphaOmega: if you use emacs, M-x check-parens can help
2017-02-18T13:43:48Z |3b|: does it also say "in form starting at line: ..."?
2017-02-18T13:44:25Z Xach: that can be quite helpful
2017-02-18T13:47:16Z AlphaOmega: i don't use emacs.. am a vim fan.. :P
2017-02-18T13:47:37Z AlphaOmega: |3b|: the line number is the end of declarations
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2017-02-18T15:08:10Z AlphaOmega: got it
2017-02-18T15:08:13Z AlphaOmega: pasting
2017-02-18T15:09:28Z AlphaOmega: http://paste.lisp.org/+79WE
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2017-02-18T15:12:19Z nirved: ?! what is '+'
2017-02-18T15:12:19Z loke: AlphaOmega: Wow. You really need to clean up your code and indentation.
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2017-02-18T15:13:41Z AlphaOmega: nirved: i'm trying to accept a +, -, *, /, q from the user
2017-02-18T15:13:50Z AlphaOmega: sorry for double side quotes
2017-02-18T15:13:52Z nirved: case doesn't work with strings
2017-02-18T15:13:53Z White_Flame: "The value T is not of type NUMBER", most likely because you're trying to do (= something t).  = is a numeric comparison
2017-02-18T15:13:53Z AlphaOmega: wanted single side
2017-02-18T15:14:04Z nirved: '+' is not a string either
2017-02-18T15:14:07Z AlphaOmega: White_Flame: ou, i'll patch that
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2017-02-18T15:22:37Z White_Flame: there, I reindented and removed the compilation errors: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339422#1
2017-02-18T15:22:59Z White_Flame: that shows more idiomatic indentation styles, removed unnecessary progns, and cleaned up the boolean testing of CHANGE
2017-02-18T15:23:23Z White_Flame: no clue about its intended operation, but that's at least more what common lisp should look like
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2017-02-18T15:31:30Z Jonsky: Any way in Slime to eval the last input? (I know M-p).
2017-02-18T15:32:07Z Jonsky: For example I would like to repeat (read stream) and expect to have something like !! in bash.
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2017-02-18T15:33:23Z AlphaOmega: White_Flame: added a toggle to 'change' variable at the completion of an operation..
2017-02-18T15:33:52Z AlphaOmega: where do I practice LISP skills? I wanna express logic like you did
2017-02-18T15:35:08Z _death: Jonsky: (defvar *last-action*) (define-symbol-macro !! (eval (if (eq + '!!) *last-action* (setf *last-action* +))))
2017-02-18T15:36:55Z Jonsky: _death: ah ha, thanks. I am still not thinking in the Lispy way, aka do it yourself.
2017-02-18T15:36:58Z White_Flame: go through lisp books, like Practical Common Lisp, and a few others
2017-02-18T15:37:02Z beach: AlphaOmega: Read a good book and do the exercises.
2017-02-18T15:37:17Z White_Flame: also, use Emacs.  It will indent properly for you.  The code you posted was non-stylistic partly because of that
2017-02-18T15:37:41Z AlphaOmega: is there a way around with not using Emacs while getting that indent?
2017-02-18T15:37:44Z White_Flame: (although not being a vim user, I don't know how well it does, or if that was just user error)
2017-02-18T15:38:04Z Jonsky: Speakintg of books, I found a really old book in perfect condition yesterday in the library: LISP by Patrick Henry Winston.
2017-02-18T15:38:17Z AlphaOmega: White_Flame: i basically type the indent i wish, i don't really rely on the editor for it
2017-02-18T15:38:23Z White_Flame: indentation is part of SLIME, meaning it hooks into the running lisp to know how different forms should be indented, based on their current definition
2017-02-18T15:38:37Z beach: AlphaOmega: That is the wrong attitude.
2017-02-18T15:38:39Z AlphaOmega: ou... so i gotta hookup slime to vim
2017-02-18T15:38:49Z beach: AlphaOmega: Common Lisp programmers rely on the indentation to be correct.
2017-02-18T15:38:49Z Jonsky: I look at the borrow slip in the first page and found that apparently no one has borrowed it before. Strange...
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2017-02-18T15:39:43Z beach: AlphaOmega: So if you do it manually, and then submit your code, your reader (the person reading your code) will notice that it is incorrect, conclude that you must have done it manually, and is forced to count parenthesis, which is something Common Lisp programmers don't do.
2017-02-18T15:40:13Z beach: AlphaOmega: So you are essentially putting additional burden on the people trying to help you.
2017-02-18T15:40:45Z AlphaOmega: oh... I understand.. I'll get to assembling slime and vim together
2017-02-18T15:41:02Z beach: AlphaOmega: Some people here use something called slimv.
2017-02-18T15:41:16Z beach: I don't know how good it is with indentation, though.
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2017-02-18T15:43:33Z AlphaOmega: now what's a REPL?
2017-02-18T15:44:00Z beach: Read-Eval-Print Loop
2017-02-18T15:44:35Z AlphaOmega: so a repl for slimv would be sbcl?
2017-02-18T15:45:11Z beach: SBCL would be an "implementation" which can provide a REPL to be used with SLIME or some other end-user interface.
2017-02-18T15:45:30Z AlphaOmega: oh.. things are becoming clearer
2017-02-18T15:46:04Z beach: AlphaOmega: Every Common Lisp implementation has such a REPL available.  We use it to test our programs interactively and incrementally, after having added or modified some definitions.
2017-02-18T15:47:22Z beach: AlphaOmega: Common Lisp is what is known as an "interactive", or "dynamic" language, meaning its semantics are defined as a series of interactions with the global environment.  Other languages have a strict separation between compile time and run time.
2017-02-18T15:48:33Z beach: Some of those interactions are side-effect free, like when you do (+ 3 4).  Others affect the global environment.  This is the case in particular with definitions of things like functions or classes.
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2017-02-18T15:49:34Z AlphaOmega: ou.. so that's why it's not as similar to python
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2017-02-18T15:49:42Z AlphaOmega: as bash scripts
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2017-02-18T15:52:09Z loke: AlphaOmega: It's not like Bash
2017-02-18T15:52:23Z loke: Very few languages allows you to deploy and develop at the same time.
2017-02-18T15:53:14Z loke: AlphaOmega: I did a talk on this subject some time ago:
2017-02-18T15:53:16Z loke: https://www.engineers.sg/video/web-development-in-emacs-common-lisp-and-clojurescript-emacs-sg--1245
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2017-02-18T15:53:43Z AlphaOmega: hey, I just ran into a huge issue.. I can't see any output available at sbcl
2017-02-18T15:53:54Z phoe: AlphaOmega: what do you mean, any output available?
2017-02-18T15:53:59Z AlphaOmega: sbcl --no-inform --load <file>.lisp
2017-02-18T15:54:08Z AlphaOmega: nothing at all, blank
2017-02-18T15:54:11Z AlphaOmega: just a *
2017-02-18T15:54:17Z phoe: oh, good
2017-02-18T15:54:20Z phoe: it loaded your file
2017-02-18T15:54:26Z phoe: and put you inside its default REPL
2017-02-18T15:54:33Z phoe: type (+ 2 2) to verify if you're in it
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2017-02-18T15:55:23Z phoe: I really suggest you abandon the default REPL though and learn you some emacs+slime. It's really empowering..
2017-02-18T15:56:09Z AlphaOmega: phoe: i wanna stay away from emacs, really.
2017-02-18T15:56:29Z Jonsky: loke: You do ClojureScript? I am learning it today and got a question
2017-02-18T15:56:44Z loke: Jonsky: I have done some.
2017-02-18T15:56:49Z beach: AlphaOmega: What phoe said, but also, loading files at the OS prompt is not a comfortable way to develop in Common Lisp.  You use an interactive environment until deployment.
2017-02-18T15:56:53Z Jonsky: Unlike other languages that intend to compile to JavaScript (like TypeScript, FunScript, or CoffeeScript), ClojureScript is designed to use JavaScript like bytecode.
2017-02-18T15:56:55Z loke: Most of the clojurescript code in tat project was written by someone else should.
2017-02-18T15:56:57Z loke: though.
2017-02-18T15:57:05Z Jonsky: I read this today, don't know what it actually means
2017-02-18T15:57:41Z loke: Jonsky: I think it means that the idea behind clojuescript is not to expose a different interface than Javascript, but keep all the semantics
2017-02-18T15:58:02Z loke: Clojurescript keeps all the clojure semantics and simply runs that code on a Javascript VM
2017-02-18T15:58:14Z AlphaOmega: beach: i think I should do that.. doing a --load screwed up the code so much, it asks for input before showing the prompt message
2017-02-18T15:58:21Z beach: AlphaOmega: By not doing what you are recommended here, you make life much harder for yourself.  Also, you make harder to get help here, because people are going to want your code follow established conventions.
2017-02-18T15:58:57Z beach: s//to/
2017-02-18T15:59:19Z beach: AlphaOmega: Ultimately, you are likely to abandon Common Lisp altogether because it will be such a pain to develop with.
2017-02-18T15:59:53Z Jonsky: loke: okay, so basically it means we can forget javascript for a momnent when doing clojurescript while in , say, coffeescript we have to write some javascript.
2017-02-18T16:00:12Z loke: Jonsky: not really, or maybe. :-)
2017-02-18T16:00:37Z beach: AlphaOmega: The best way to structure your code is to make a bunch of small functions.  Then, in an interactive environment, you can call those functions individually for testing.  Only at the last moment (if at all) do you make a script which will then call one of the functions you defined.
2017-02-18T16:00:58Z loke: Jonsky: Basically, with coffescript, for example, you are writing Javascript, just with a different syntax. You define classes the same, you define functions the same. A function defined in coffeescript _is_ a javascript function, just that the code to define it looked slightly different. All the API's are Javascript, etc. etc.
2017-02-18T16:01:04Z Jonsky: AlphaOmega: You can still only use emacs for slime to do common lisp. I really regret I didn't do it when I started learning CL. It saves so much meaningless effort and let me learn much faster.
2017-02-18T16:01:07Z loke: Not so wiht clojurescript (at least much less so).
2017-02-18T16:01:30Z beach: AlphaOmega: You are basically trying very hard to emulate the very uncomfortable development environment of a bad scripting language or of a static language like C.
2017-02-18T16:01:36Z loke: Jonsky: It also helps learning Emacs, and that's good.
2017-02-18T16:01:50Z AlphaOmega: beach: exactly
2017-02-18T16:01:59Z AlphaOmega: i expect it to run like mainstream C
2017-02-18T16:01:59Z Jonsky: AlphaOmega: It is like the difference between reading a book without a dictionay and with a electronic dictionary.
2017-02-18T16:02:03Z phoe: AlphaOmega: there's slimv for fim, and it looks like Atom has a SLIME REPL plugin, if you want to avoid both.
2017-02-18T16:02:06Z phoe: AlphaOmega: that's a mistake.
2017-02-18T16:02:07Z Jonsky: loke: TRUE that
2017-02-18T16:02:19Z phoe: C is completely non-interactive.
2017-02-18T16:02:24Z AlphaOmega: phoe: yep
2017-02-18T16:02:26Z phoe: Lisp is as interactive as you can get.
2017-02-18T16:02:53Z phoe: By trying hard to chop interactivity away from Lisp, you're sure to get a very, very poor experience with the language.
2017-02-18T16:02:54Z loke: AlphaOmega: that's terrible... That's like buying a car, then spending months ripping out two of the wheels, the seats, and the trunk so that you can drive it just like you drive a motorcycle.
2017-02-18T16:03:26Z beach: Boy, the Unix people did some serious damage when they provided vi instead of Emacs.
2017-02-18T16:03:28Z White_Flame: Trying to develop Lisp outside of Emacs is like trying to develop Java outside of Eclipse/Netbeans/etc
2017-02-18T16:03:53Z loke: White_Flame: even worse... imho
2017-02-18T16:03:58Z AlphaOmega: White_Flame: which I thoroughly enjoy.. much clear as to what went wrong that way
2017-02-18T16:04:36Z loke is starting t think AlphaOmega is a troll... He must be.
2017-02-18T16:04:53Z beach: Well, trolls usually don't start by supplying Common Lisp code.
2017-02-18T16:05:03Z loke: beach: True.
2017-02-18T16:05:05Z White_Flame: I'm no fan of emacs, but it is the only really well supported Lisp editing environment there is
2017-02-18T16:05:13Z loke: beach: But it could be a very elaborate troll?
2017-02-18T16:05:15Z White_Flame: *Common Lisp
2017-02-18T16:05:22Z Jonsky: Well to be fair it is still possible to write CL with vim and tumx and slimv...
2017-02-18T16:05:24Z beach: loke: It could be, yes.
2017-02-18T16:05:27Z loke: beach: After all, the code he sent didn't actually work
2017-02-18T16:05:31Z Jonsky: it's just not as fun and easy.
2017-02-18T16:06:09Z AlphaOmega: White_Flame: okay, I have been working without IDE all this while.. I like knowing what goes on under the hood. Since i've studied C -> Java -> C++ and all without IDEs, it's really hard for me to adopt Lisp conventions.. I need help for that, not for understanding what to write for an equivalent "switch-case" in lisp
2017-02-18T16:06:28Z loke: beach: It was almost beautiful in a way, in that it hit every single pain point when looking at Lisp code written by guessing. I particularly liked the C-style characters using single quote 'a'
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2017-02-18T16:06:32Z White_Flame: AlphaOmega: what you should do is install emacs, quicklisp, and the quicklisp slime helper.  Grab a slime cheatsheet, and go for it
2017-02-18T16:06:50Z beach: loke: Yes, I agree.  Jackpot in a way.
2017-02-18T16:07:02Z phoe: AlphaOmega: there's a saying
2017-02-18T16:07:08Z phoe: Lisp can be learned in a day
2017-02-18T16:07:14Z phoe: unless you know C, in which case it's three days
2017-02-18T16:07:16Z White_Flame: AlphaOmega: I don't believe you did any actual work in Java without an IDE
2017-02-18T16:07:18Z loke: AlphaOmega: They way you learn that is by developing inside the REPL. That way you can go in low-level and inspect every aspect of the running system.
2017-02-18T16:07:43Z AlphaOmega: White_Flame: i have made entire applications with mysql db and AWT UI
2017-02-18T16:07:49Z loke: White_Flame: I did. Long ago (roughly 1997). I don't recommend it, but I had to since there were no decent Java IDE's back then.
2017-02-18T16:08:06Z White_Flame: loke: true, I did some of the same.  Only a couple kloc, though
2017-02-18T16:08:27Z White_Flame: and yeah, AWT would probably be just as dated
2017-02-18T16:08:43Z AlphaOmega: the UI sucked though.. AWT ain't too good looking
2017-02-18T16:09:45Z loke: No one has used plain AWT since 1999 or so.
2017-02-18T16:10:08Z AlphaOmega: reviving that trend is stupid (#verified)
2017-02-18T16:10:31Z beach: AlphaOmega: Again, you are of course free to develop software any way you like.  But if you want help, as was the case a few hours ago, it is very impolite to submit code that does not respect established conventions.
2017-02-18T16:10:32Z beach: Of course, it is normal to now know these conventions in the beginning, but once you are told what they are, people will expect you to follow them.
2017-02-18T16:10:47Z beach: to not know
2017-02-18T16:10:56Z AlphaOmega: i'll try to do that to my best ability
2017-02-18T16:11:08Z beach: ... and people here are going to help you then.
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2017-02-18T16:11:38Z White_Flame: specifically, from your code, closing parens don't go on their own line.  Don't put multiple separate forms horizontally in a line.  No open parens at the end of a line, put then right next to the first element
2017-02-18T16:11:53Z White_Flame: *them
2017-02-18T16:12:07Z White_Flame: and use SLIME's auto-indent to place things correctly
2017-02-18T16:12:30Z AlphaOmega: i'll play around with the SLIME's auto-indent to get a hang of it..
2017-02-18T16:12:32Z White_Flame: again, I'd suggest going through some of the more modern CL books, both to learn the language & the style
2017-02-18T16:12:53Z phoe: AlphaOmega: Lisp needs to be written with an editor which does two things:
2017-02-18T16:13:06Z phoe: 1) automatically counts or otherwise manages parentheses for you
2017-02-18T16:13:20Z phoe: 2) automatically indents the code, so the only thing you need to insert yourself are line breaks
2017-02-18T16:13:45Z phoe: 1) is for correctness of the code and 2) is for readability.
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2017-02-18T16:13:51Z AlphaOmega: why do I feel that an editor like sublime fits the role?
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2017-02-18T16:13:58Z White_Flame: also for reference: http://www.loper-os.org/wp-content/parphobia.png :)
2017-02-18T16:14:07Z phoe: AlphaOmega: does sublime autoindent Lisp for you?
2017-02-18T16:14:08Z White_Flame: that's why we indent well
2017-02-18T16:14:25Z White_Flame: indentation is for the humans, the parens are for the machine
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2017-02-18T16:14:52Z AlphaOmega: i get it now
2017-02-18T16:15:02Z phoe: and by autoindenting Lisp, I mean understanding the basics of the syntax, so it knows how to indent a function call, how to indent a macro, how to indent non-executable data
2017-02-18T16:15:04Z axion: I prefer to manage parens myself, but SLIME/Sly is absolutely needed for Common Lisp.
2017-02-18T16:15:57Z White_Flame: yeah, paredit can be awfully annoying sometimes
2017-02-18T16:16:11Z White_Flame: though I suffer it
2017-02-18T16:16:26Z AlphaOmega: i still have to understand how and what a repl does.. and why/how is it bound to my editor
2017-02-18T16:16:27Z loke: White_Flame: It was annoying for a while, but now I can't live without it.
2017-02-18T16:16:45Z Jonsky: But...vim also does the auto indentation thing and the parentheses check...
2017-02-18T16:16:58Z loke: AlphaOmega: I think if you watch the video I posted to you, it should reveal a bit more.
2017-02-18T16:17:11Z loke: I try to explain exactly how the REPL is beneficial in real programming.
2017-02-18T16:17:17Z AlphaOmega: vim is basically emacs with a different command keybinding
2017-02-18T16:17:24Z Jonsky: AlphaOmega: You can still write CL code with correct indentation and balanced parentheses in Vim.
2017-02-18T16:18:07Z White_Flame: Python has a repl.  BASIC has a repl.  Javascript web console & node.js have a repl
2017-02-18T16:18:08Z smokeink: does anyone here do lisp coding without slime ? just pure vi/other text editor + naked repl ?
2017-02-18T16:18:18Z loke: smokeink: Unlikely.
2017-02-18T16:18:21Z White_Flame: so there are examples.  Just that SLIME allows you many more features than a bare repl
2017-02-18T16:18:33Z Jonsky: smokeink: I did... for a bit
2017-02-18T16:18:46Z smokeink: cuz i'm the mood to try it...
2017-02-18T16:18:54Z phoe: White_Flame: such as inspector/debugger/indentation/argument lists
2017-02-18T16:18:56Z loke: OK, I'm off
2017-02-18T16:19:00Z loke: time to go to sleep
2017-02-18T16:19:03Z axion: I do not use SLIME :)
2017-02-18T16:19:09Z smokeink: sleep well
2017-02-18T16:19:09Z White_Flame: phoe: and integration with your source code editing buffers
2017-02-18T16:19:24Z AlphaOmega: ty loke gn
2017-02-18T16:19:33Z smokeink: axion: do you use other IDEs ?
2017-02-18T16:20:05Z axion: Yes, I use the superior Sly
2017-02-18T16:20:24Z loke: axion: It's not superior.
2017-02-18T16:20:27Z loke: IMHO, of course.
2017-02-18T16:20:30Z smokeink: :D
2017-02-18T16:20:46Z axion: Well it certainly can do more, but to each their own :)
2017-02-18T16:20:51Z White_Flame: it's a slime fork, so still slime-ish
2017-02-18T16:21:14Z loke: axion: Possibly. But for some reason it doesn't do presentations, which is a feature of SLIME I use all the time.
2017-02-18T16:21:33Z loke: I really can't live without it.
2017-02-18T16:22:16Z smokeink: what's presentations
2017-02-18T16:23:37Z loke: smokeink: those are the results that are red in SLIME. Those text strings represent an underlying actual object in the Lisp image, and can be copy&pasted like strings, while still preseving the object-ness.
2017-02-18T16:23:42Z loke: It's pretty awesome.
2017-02-18T16:24:11Z smokeink: oh, yes, i used that, it's nice
2017-02-18T16:24:16Z fourier: AlphaOmega: if you allergic to emacs just download LispWorks Personal
2017-02-18T16:24:20Z White_Flame: it's a really weak knockoff of Genera presentations ;)
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2017-02-18T16:24:35Z loke: White_Flame: Sure
2017-02-18T16:24:44Z loke: White_Flame: But one has to take what one can get
2017-02-18T16:25:09Z loke: I'll definitely take SLIME presentations over Sly's "no presentations".
2017-02-18T16:25:44Z White_Flame: also, what are the differentiating features of sly?
2017-02-18T16:25:52Z White_Flame: (besides no presentations? ;) )
2017-02-18T16:26:13Z loke: White_Flame: I don't really know. I stopped using it after I realised the main feature I use wasn't there :-)
2017-02-18T16:26:31Z White_Flame: well, that's more directed to axion
2017-02-18T16:26:43Z axion: loke: I just read about them because I was unfamiliar, but In Sly, everything is a button that can be left/right clicked on/copied. Not sure if that means anything.
2017-02-18T16:27:58Z loke: axion: Perhaps. It's been a while since I tried it last. Perhaps it's improved?
2017-02-18T16:28:01Z loke: I'll try it again.
2017-02-18T16:28:39Z smokeink quit (Quit: Later)
2017-02-18T16:28:40Z axion: I tend to use * etc anyway for anything more than quick debugging
2017-02-18T16:29:22Z loke: axion: I never use *, mainly because I keep rerunning commands all the time, and the content of * is kinda ephremal :-)
2017-02-18T16:29:37Z loke: So I usually simply copy&paste the result of one function when I want to use it in the next.
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2017-02-18T16:29:39Z axion: White_Flame: multiple inspectors for starters, and stickers, which is a way to annotate forms to inspect the value of something any time during its lifetime....think of them as a way to debug without stepping through the debugger or inserting many print/format forms.
2017-02-18T16:30:05Z axion: much more too that I sort of forgot about and have become standard for me. I haven't used SLIME for very long to notice the differences
2017-02-18T16:30:18Z White_Flame: so stickers are sort of like watches in other IDEs?
2017-02-18T16:30:26Z axion: Maybe, not sure.
2017-02-18T16:30:50Z loke: OK, now I'm really going to sleep. I'll try sly again to get some perspective.
2017-02-18T16:30:52Z loke: good night guys
2017-02-18T16:31:06Z Jonsky: loke: thanks for mentioning presentations
2017-02-18T16:31:15Z Jonsky: I learned something useful tonight.
2017-02-18T16:31:48Z axion: loke: makes sense, good night
2017-02-18T16:31:50Z loke: I think I mention how they can be used in my video
2017-02-18T16:32:06Z loke: Oh well, enough of me mentioning it :-)
2017-02-18T16:32:18Z Jonsky: loke: haven't started playing it yet
2017-02-18T16:33:16Z axion: White_Flame: http://joaotavora.github.io/sly/#SLY-Stickers
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2017-02-18T16:34:06Z beach: Jonsky: Presentations and presentation types are essential ingredients of CLIM.  It is a very powerful way of structuring an interactive application.
2017-02-18T16:34:40Z Jonsky: beach: Haven't tried CLIM yet...
2017-02-18T16:34:51Z beach: I figured.  That's why I mentioned it.
2017-02-18T16:35:20Z Jonsky: beach: But I thought presentations are ways to copy and paste things around REPL to make coding easier?
2017-02-18T16:35:35Z beach: Not quite.
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2017-02-18T16:35:47Z beach: Jonsky: They basically allow for the user to invoke functionality in the application that was not explicitly programmed by the developer.
2017-02-18T16:37:03Z White_Flame: it's anathema here, but I consider HTML DOM objects to be somewhat similar in concept.  You "print" something to the screen, and it remains a live object with visuals, backing data, and interactivity.  It's not just a painted set of pixels
2017-02-18T16:37:07Z beach: Jonsky: Model objects are presented to the end user as presentations.  When some command is invoked (using a menu, a CLI, or some other way), the command acquires its arguments according to the presentation type, and all shown presentations of that type (or subtype) become clickable.
2017-02-18T16:37:44Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-02-18T16:38:40Z White_Flame: (and it's not just a dead string in a character buffer)
2017-02-18T16:43:22Z Jonsky: Let me see if I get it right. So for example a user wrote a lambda expression and my programme didnt consider SETFing it somewhere. But my programme can still use the lambda by calling the #<FUNCTION ...>.
2017-02-18T16:43:41Z phoe: Jonsky: depends.
2017-02-18T16:43:58Z phoe: if you try typing #<FUNCTION ...> in your REPL, it will choke on reading the #< reader macro.
2017-02-18T16:44:10Z beach: Jonsky: Typically, yes.
2017-02-18T16:44:19Z pjb: Where did the user write this lambda expression?
2017-02-18T16:44:25Z phoe: If you try copying or otherwise using a *presentation* which shows up as #<FUNCTION ...>, it will work.
2017-02-18T16:44:51Z pjb: Because presentations keep references to the presented objects somewhere.
2017-02-18T16:45:12Z beach: Jonsky: Type it to the REPL, get a function back.  Then type (defvar *f* <click on the presentation>)
2017-02-18T16:45:55Z beach: Jonsky: click with the middle button.
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2017-02-18T16:46:38Z Ayffel: hello
2017-02-18T16:46:41Z pjb: Hello!
2017-02-18T16:46:46Z beach: Hello Ayffel.
2017-02-18T16:46:49Z Ayffel: i was looking for a band who do lisp
2017-02-18T16:46:58Z Ayffel: for fun
2017-02-18T16:47:06Z Ayffel: im a new beginner
2017-02-18T16:47:37Z beach: What kind of "band" are we talking about here?
2017-02-18T16:47:53Z Ayffel: channel
2017-02-18T16:48:18Z Jonsky: I don't even have a mouse... but I tried the slime's copy presentation to repl and then FUNCALLed it.
2017-02-18T16:48:23Z beach: Ayffel: #lisp is an IRC channel dedicated to Common Lisp if that is what you are looking for.
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2017-02-18T16:48:31Z Ayffel: precisely
2017-02-18T16:48:44Z Ayffel: im looking for good tutorial for beginning
2017-02-18T16:48:50Z Ayffel: i though you could guide me
2017-02-18T16:49:00Z beach: minion: Please tell Ayffel about PCL.
2017-02-18T16:49:00Z minion: Ayffel: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-02-18T16:49:07Z Jonsky: It's just a bit confusing to know it can also be used for purposes other that developing in REPL.
2017-02-18T16:49:10Z Ayffel: in French?
2017-02-18T16:49:26Z beach: No.  Do you need something in French?
2017-02-18T16:49:49Z Ayffel: yes
2017-02-18T16:50:07Z beach: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Teaching/PFS/Common/Book/HTML/programmation.html
2017-02-18T16:50:10Z beach: That might do.
2017-02-18T16:50:13Z Ayffel: and a good interpretor for windows
2017-02-18T16:50:40Z Ayffel: beach: broken link
2017-02-18T16:50:54Z beach: Works for me.
2017-02-18T16:51:02Z shka: as well as for me
2017-02-18T16:51:18Z shka: Ayffel: dns problem?
2017-02-18T16:51:37Z Ayffel: page loading pb
2017-02-18T16:51:44Z shka: hmm
2017-02-18T16:52:09Z Ayffel: ok i have it
2017-02-18T16:52:11Z Ayffel: it works
2017-02-18T16:52:56Z Ayffel: thanks
2017-02-18T16:53:02Z Ayffel: that's a lot to read?
2017-02-18T16:54:22Z shka: Ayffel: is that a bad thing?
2017-02-18T16:54:40Z Ayffel: no considering what ive asked
2017-02-18T16:54:40Z jleija quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-18T16:54:50Z Ayffel: but i mean to become skilled is there a lot to read?
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2017-02-18T16:55:09Z Ayffel: also may i can be a little embarassing asking you the PDF version? :P
2017-02-18T16:55:36Z shka: moment
2017-02-18T16:55:45Z shka: beach: did your wrote that book? :D
2017-02-18T16:57:08Z xhe quit (Quit: leaving)
2017-02-18T16:57:55Z Jonsky 
2017-02-18T16:58:29Z Jonsky thinking to himself "Maybe I should practice my French another day.."
2017-02-18T16:59:18Z phoe: Ayffel: #clnoobs
2017-02-18T16:59:23Z phoe: That's also a channel you might want to bookmark.
2017-02-18T16:59:44Z dpg quit (Quit: Leaving)
2017-02-18T16:59:52Z phoe: Ayffel: as for the interpreter, Steel Bank Common Lisp/SBCL is a reliable implementation.
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2017-02-18T17:00:32Z beach: shka: I wrote it together with my favorite co-author, yes.
2017-02-18T17:01:10Z vibs29 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-18T17:02:10Z shka: (sbcl is not exactly to be precise)
2017-02-18T17:02:15Z shka: beach: cool :-)
2017-02-18T17:02:39Z beach: I have written three more.
2017-02-18T17:02:51Z Ayffel: phoe: i mean im under windows
2017-02-18T17:03:00Z shka: (sbcl is not interpreter to be precise)
2017-02-18T17:03:02Z fourier: Ayffel: for windows you can download LispWorks Personal (comes with IDE) or Clozure Common Lisp (without IDE). To write lisp you can use Emacs+SLIME or Sublime or Atom with appropriate plugins
2017-02-18T17:03:31Z Ayffel: okeay
2017-02-18T17:03:38Z shka: beach: all in french?
2017-02-18T17:04:02Z pjb: Yeah, some people find lisp not difficult enough, they write about it in French!
2017-02-18T17:04:16Z Ayffel: okay
2017-02-18T17:04:17Z otjura quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2017-02-18T17:04:18Z Ayffel: thank you
2017-02-18T17:04:18Z shka: :D
2017-02-18T17:04:22Z shka: pjb: good one!
2017-02-18T17:04:36Z beach: shka: Actually, three in French, one in English and one in Swedish.
2017-02-18T17:05:17Z beach: shka: But the ones in English and Swedish are updated translations of one of the French books.
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2017-02-18T17:08:16Z phoe: Ayffel: SBCL works on Windows reliably enough, too.
2017-02-18T17:08:28Z phoe: Though some people recommend CCL as the better choice here.
2017-02-18T17:08:32Z Ayffel: okay
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2017-02-18T17:11:20Z Ayffel: punaise derrière un proxy ça peine à download
2017-02-18T17:12:01Z phoe: Ayffel: kompletnie nie mam pojęcia, co do mnie mówisz ani w jaki sposób miałbym Ci odpowiedzieć.
2017-02-18T17:12:12Z Ayffel: phoe: ah?
2017-02-18T17:12:37Z pjb: Ayffel: Да, это лучше всего работает без прокси-сервера.
2017-02-18T17:12:48Z Ayffel: err...
2017-02-18T17:13:08Z beach: Ayffel: They are trying to tell you that English is the language of this channel.
2017-02-18T17:13:09Z pjb: There's also #lisp-fr
2017-02-18T17:13:11Z fourier: det funkar bäst utan proxy-servern
2017-02-18T17:13:21Z Ayffel: okay
2017-02-18T17:14:21Z pjb: But not a lot of people there. There aren't enough lispers to disperse by natural language.
2017-02-18T17:14:47Z Jonsky: 大家都很高興嘛
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2017-02-18T17:20:27Z Ayffel: salut à plus tard
2017-02-18T17:20:35Z Ayffel: sry
2017-02-18T17:20:38Z Ayffel: wrong channel
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2017-02-18T17:23:17Z _death: even "strand" becomes "beach" :)
2017-02-18T17:23:50Z beach: Congratulations!  You figured it out.  I sometimes use `spiaggia' as well.
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2017-02-18T17:26:24Z _death: learned a bit of deutsch some time ago, so easy to notice
2017-02-18T17:26:33Z beach: Yeah.
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2017-02-18T17:37:06Z _death: fourier: did you say "it functions best without a proxy server"?
2017-02-18T17:37:26Z _death: (I learned a bit of norwegian some years ago.. but that looks more like swedish)
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2017-02-18T17:40:14Z fourier: _death: yes it says so in swedish
2017-02-18T17:40:49Z _death: and pjb said something along "yes, why ??? work ??? proxy server"
2017-02-18T17:41:12Z fourier: _death: pjb said the same
2017-02-18T17:41:30Z fourier: _death: in russian
2017-02-18T17:41:35Z _death: yep
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2017-02-18T17:48:06Z phoe interns pjb in his package
2017-02-18T17:48:31Z AlphaOmega: adios folks
2017-02-18T17:48:39Z AlphaOmega: hopefully, be back soon
2017-02-18T17:48:49Z AlphaOmega: with better indents
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2017-02-18T18:34:13Z Younder: It is true that Lisp is not a purely functional language. It is usual to make functions with a functional exterior, but internally they have a applicative structure. In a time before lazy evaluation this may have seemed like a reasonable balance. But we can do bettwr today.
2017-02-18T18:34:56Z dim: Younder: lisp is not a purely functional language
2017-02-18T18:35:00Z dim: see setf and friends
2017-02-18T18:35:03Z dim: ,clhs setf
2017-02-18T18:35:12Z Younder: I said that.
2017-02-18T18:35:32Z dim: I read "is it" instead of "it is"... sorry
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2017-02-18T18:39:27Z Younder: I guess my point is it is not impossible to make these libs in CL. Series is an old example. So why hold on to those old ways.
2017-02-18T18:39:29Z Younder: ?
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2017-02-18T18:43:06Z phoe: Younder: old ways? What do you mean?
2017-02-18T18:43:17Z phoe: CL is not a purely functional language, it's multiparadigm.
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2017-02-18T18:44:29Z Younder: I guess I would like a bit more of a Haskell nature to it. All it needs are a few libs.
2017-02-18T18:45:51Z Younder: As an alternative. You would still have the existing multi-paradigm library.
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2017-02-18T18:51:30Z Bike: there's stuff like fset. works fine
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2017-02-18T18:53:30Z jpthing: And for stuff like arrays it is insane to use a functional paradigm . But have you read 'purely functional data structures. You can just restructure your program.
2017-02-18T18:59:08Z jpthing: I am not sugesting these libs replace the old ones. But for some classes of problems like databases with their ACID compliance functional datas-structures work better.
2017-02-18T19:00:12Z Bike: ? are you also younder?
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2017-02-18T19:01:14Z jpthing: yes, I have no idea how I became jpthing. This is a secondary name.
2017-02-18T19:01:48Z jpthing: But any how my name is John Thingstad. That is no secret.
2017-02-18T19:03:56Z jpthing: Younder is something I liked. I look beyond the horizon. The newer and the better. I think it is a description of my personality. For better of worse.
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2017-02-18T19:11:16Z _death: then shouldn't it be "yonder"
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2017-02-18T19:11:50Z jpthing: _death, I am a terrible speller :)
2017-02-18T19:12:07Z jpthing: It seemed like a god jke at the time
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2017-02-18T19:20:48Z jpthing: But this is all me what have you been up to?
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2017-02-18T19:29:53Z NeverDie: Hey here's a Lisp discord chat if anyone wants to join: https://discord.gg/8w9tRKa
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2017-02-18T19:33:10Z pjb: NeverDie: no, thank you.
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2017-02-18T19:35:19Z phoe: NeverDie: #lisp@Freenode is a perfectly good communication channel - no need to switch.
2017-02-18T19:35:50Z NeverDie: I use both simultaneously, I don't see why it has to be an ultimatum.
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2017-02-18T19:39:03Z varjag: webchats are so 1990s
2017-02-18T19:39:05Z jpthing: It is priceless to hang out with old lispers like pjb. Even though the communications seems somewhat doubvious.
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2017-02-18T19:41:10Z jpthing: These nasty #rasberrypi people hacked my computer yesterday.
2017-02-18T19:41:27Z White_Flame: jpthing: I use pure functional hashmaps all the time in my main lisp project
2017-02-18T19:41:38Z White_Flame: gleaned from the book mentioned above
2017-02-18T19:42:07Z jpthing: White_Flame, good on you
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2017-02-18T19:42:26Z White_Flame: and of course a-lists are easy to use pure functional as well
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2017-02-18T19:43:06Z White_Flame: what's the "better way" you envision?  not sure if you got there
2017-02-18T19:43:19Z White_Flame: before tangenting into irc handle territory
2017-02-18T19:43:57Z jpthing: Well for now explore the series lib. White_Flame
2017-02-18T19:45:44Z White_Flame: are the docs somewhere online, or do I have to find my copy of CLtL somewhere?
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2017-02-18T19:46:40Z jpthing: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/cltl2.html
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2017-02-18T19:47:37Z jpthing: all you have to do is goole 'common lisp the language'
2017-02-18T19:47:50Z White_Flame: yeah, forgot it was freely available
2017-02-18T19:48:02Z White_Flame has it in dead tree format in a box somewhere
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2017-02-18T19:48:42Z White_Flame: (dead tree pages, in a dead tree box, sitting on a dead tree shelf, surrounded by dead tree walls, no less)
2017-02-18T19:50:21Z jpthing: Yes, ahve a lot of dead tree lit myself
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2017-02-18T19:51:08Z White_Flame: this seems pretty orthogonal to functional programming; was hoping there was some change to that
2017-02-18T19:51:33Z White_Flame: stream filtering/joining/buffering/processing is around in a lot of languages, though the ability to compile them all together via macros into an efficient loop is nice
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2017-02-18T19:52:22Z jpthing: Well you might want to look to Scala. It seems progressive
2017-02-18T19:52:46Z White_Flame: I've actually not heard many good things about Scala, other than "Well, I guess it's a bit better than Java"
2017-02-18T19:53:26Z jpthing: Well you know. To me It's Haskell
2017-02-18T19:54:09Z White_Flame: I've done Java for a long time, and while I respect the tech of the VM, I just can't bring myself back to that language ecosystem
2017-02-18T19:54:14Z jpthing: I have yet to grook it. But I have a passion for it.
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2017-02-18T20:01:47Z jpthing: If you do choose that way I have a book that may ease the pain. It is a math book called 'introduction to Lattices and Order' by Davey and Priestly. And of course there is that mandatory 'Real world Hskell'
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2017-02-18T20:09:31Z jpthing: Haskell is extremely mathematical so you might want to look up a book on category theory too. It won't be an easy journey but it will be a rewarding one. Good luck.
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2017-02-18T20:10:42Z White_Flame: yeah, I know a fair bit about haskell, though never used it
2017-02-18T20:11:04Z White_Flame: the whole "program in types until it works, then simply fill in the rest" is interesting
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2017-02-18T20:18:18Z fourier: there is Kotlin around on JVM, people use it in production
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2017-02-18T20:33:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: jpthing: I wouldn't say anyone NEEDS to know category theory to learn Haskell.
2017-02-18T20:34:46Z jpthing: Petit_Dejeuner, I didn't.
2017-02-18T20:35:24Z phoe pushes CLUS Packages live
2017-02-18T20:35:30Z jpthing: Petit_Dejeuner, I Said you might want to. Ind it IS useful
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2017-02-18T20:38:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: oh, well then fair enough
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2017-02-18T20:45:07Z jpthing: Are you familiar with the work of Groethendiech in the 60's . He defined fibrations
2017-02-18T20:46:03Z jpthing: It is redefining type theory today
2017-02-18T20:48:21Z jpthing: I love math. I always have. Perhaps because it is my passion I find it so disconcerting that you have so little faith.
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2017-02-18T20:49:38Z jpthing: There is a new typw theory based entrirely on category theory.
2017-02-18T20:50:03Z jpthing: We call it categorical type theory.
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2017-02-18T21:31:21Z drmeister: When folks write functions that take pathnames as arguments - is it assumed that the function will automatically run the argument pathname through MERGE-PATHNAMES to merge it with *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS* before it is reduced to a namestring or is it assumed that the caller will do that before calling the function?
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2017-02-18T21:32:24Z drmeister: Imagine you are calling a C function through CFFI and it needs a file name as an argument and you want to pass a namestring derived from a pathname.
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2017-02-18T21:34:01Z shka: how that would work, if i already merged path myself?
2017-02-18T21:35:26Z drmeister: If you already merged the path yourself - I think it would be a nop.   Every pathname component will be full.
2017-02-18T21:35:37Z shka: hmmm
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2017-02-18T22:01:38Z pjb: drmeister: it would depend on the function.  For CL functions, it's generally specified (at least indirectly) whether the merge and/or the truename is computed.    For user defined function, I would guess that in general you would avoid them so that the user gets what he puts (eg. error messages would be less confusing if the same kind of paths are reported as are given).
2017-02-18T22:02:53Z pjb: drmeister: now, for C (POSIX) functions, you have the added difficulty of having to deal not with pathnames, but with paths, and not with *default-pathname-defaults*, but with cwd.
2017-02-18T22:03:51Z pjb: Usually implementations maintain both *default-pathname-defaults* and the POSIX current working directory, and they can be different.  If path eventually passed to the POSIX function is relative, then the current working directory is also taken into account.
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2017-02-18T22:04:56Z pjb: clhs 19.2.3
2017-02-18T22:04:56Z specbot: Merging Pathnames: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/19_bc.htm
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2017-02-18T22:05:24Z pjb: says that in general, functions manipulating or inquiring about files in the file system do merge-pathnames.
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2017-02-18T22:06:50Z pjb: directory has to return truenames, but (pathname (open logical-pathname)) can return a logical pathname (depending on the result of the merge-pathname done by open).
2017-02-18T22:07:20Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_pn_hos.htm
2017-02-18T22:07:33Z pjb: compile-file provides both *compile-file-pathname* and *compile-file-truename*, but it's not specified which one shall be used by the implementation eg. in its error messages. ccl uses logical pathnames.
2017-02-18T22:07:46Z phoe: Why does the call: (pathname-directory (parse-namestring "/foo/bar/baz.lisp") :case :local) return two *different* values each time it's called? In the Unix examples. I guess they must have meant :case :common in the second example.
2017-02-18T22:08:10Z pjb: (pathname-directory (parse-namestring "/foo/bar/baz.lisp") :case :local) #| --> (:absolute "foo" "bar") |# (pathname-directory (parse-namestring "/foo/bar/baz.lisp") :case :local) #| --> (:absolute "foo" "bar") |#
2017-02-18T22:08:14Z pjb: I get the same resutl.
2017-02-18T22:08:27Z phoe: pjb: the examples are borked, that's what I know.
2017-02-18T22:08:41Z phoe: But I want to know whether going :case :common will upcase them.
2017-02-18T22:08:49Z phoe: Like in the second example.
2017-02-18T22:09:30Z pjb: This is because the case depends on the local case.
2017-02-18T22:10:01Z pjb: with ccl on unix, I get a lower case, because ccl assumes that the local case is lower case.
2017-02-18T22:10:28Z pjb: :case :common is necessarily upper case, since that's the only conforming common case.
2017-02-18T22:10:32Z phoe: pjb: got it.
2017-02-18T22:10:45Z pjb: On the other hand, ccl is not conforming with :case :common …
2017-02-18T22:11:46Z phoe: pjb: woah
2017-02-18T22:11:52Z phoe: give me an example on paste.lisp.org
2017-02-18T22:11:55Z pjb: Also, there's the problem that the actual local case doesn't depend on the platform, but on the file system, and may be different from one component to the other of a path (you can mount a unix file system in a mac file system in a ms-dos file system in a ms-windows file system in a unix file system).
2017-02-18T22:12:03Z phoe: I'll happily file a ticket
2017-02-18T22:12:10Z phoe nod.
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2017-02-18T22:12:48Z pjb: So pathname-directory :case :local should return a list of strings in different cases depending on what file system they come from  :-)
2017-02-18T22:13:00Z pjb: No implementation does that, so basically they're all borked.
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2017-02-18T22:14:56Z phoe: haha. I see.
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2017-02-18T22:18:59Z pjb: Ah, well, perhaps ccl is conforming on its treatment of case common (by make-pathname).  I didn't like that it upcased lowercase components with :case :common, but this is specified in 19.2.2.1.2.2
2017-02-18T22:19:07Z pjb: (cl:make-pathname :case :common :directory '(:absolute "tmp") :name "foo" :type "txt") #| --> #P"/TMP/FOO.TXT" |# is conforming.
2017-02-18T22:21:08Z phoe: https://i.imgtc.com/BgcYep7.png this is good stuff
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2017-02-18T22:30:50Z nyingen: phoe: for some reason that reminds me of stock 'computer code' graphics like you seen in hollywood movies
2017-02-18T22:30:58Z nyingen: along these lines: https://0.s3.envato.com/files/56951185/40.590x300.JPG
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2017-02-18T23:21:03Z phoe: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_namest.htm
2017-02-18T23:21:22Z phoe: These examples have an unbound variable, directory-name.
2017-02-18T23:21:34Z phoe: What should be done with this?
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2017-02-18T23:23:13Z varjag: isn't it only in the output
2017-02-18T23:23:27Z varjag: meaning "some directory"
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2017-02-18T23:24:41Z varjag: not perfect perhaps but better than 'foobar'
2017-02-18T23:24:42Z phoe: varjag: can I replace this with "implementation-dependent"?
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2017-02-18T23:25:15Z varjag: i think they are trying to convey that it will be some directory name there
2017-02-18T23:25:22Z phoe: or rather, implementation-and-filesystem-dependent?
2017-02-18T23:26:41Z varjag: i guess, but to me, 'directory-name' is a limited subset of 'implementation-dependent'
2017-02-18T23:26:58Z varjag: i.e. it won't be NIL or 1234
2017-02-18T23:27:40Z phoe: varjag: but it looks like a symbol.
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2017-02-18T23:28:31Z varjag: i dont' really think you can count on the format in the first example at all
2017-02-18T23:28:59Z varjag: i.e. in sbcl i'd expect a different form of pathname object
2017-02-18T23:29:08Z varjag: #P"blahhblah"
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2017-02-18T23:30:59Z varjag: phoe: and directory-namestring returns me well the current directory string
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2017-02-18T23:31:41Z phoe: varjag: the deeper I dive into pathnames and namestrings
2017-02-18T23:32:17Z phoe: the more I think these are the thing I understand the least in standard Common Lisp
2017-02-18T23:32:27Z varjag: you are not alone
2017-02-18T23:32:33Z phoe: especially with almost all the examples being absolutely abstract
2017-02-18T23:32:42Z varjag: it's one of the more underspecified areas of the standard
2017-02-18T23:33:06Z phoe: not only underspecified
2017-02-18T23:33:19Z phoe: I don't even know where to begin understanding it.
2017-02-18T23:33:21Z varjag: the community effort that went into making things like asdf work is immeasurable
2017-02-18T23:33:59Z phoe: I'll need to measure it one day in order to understand it.
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2017-02-18T23:34:17Z varjag: i remember patching mk:defsystem (asdf predecessor) for MCL
2017-02-18T23:34:51Z varjag: ask Fare when he's around
2017-02-18T23:36:25Z pjb: actually the directory-name placeholder depends on the *default-pathname-defaults*.
2017-02-18T23:36:31Z varjag: or marco antoniotti, he maintained mk-defsystem iirc
2017-02-18T23:37:12Z pjb: phoe: I'm not sure there are cases where it's implementation dependent.
2017-02-18T23:37:25Z varjag: pjb: it does, just that it doesn't stand clear it's really a placeholder
2017-02-18T23:37:32Z pjb: phoe: apart from the fact that the default value for *default-pathname-defaults* is implementation dependent.
2017-02-18T23:38:12Z pjb: It ns necessarily, because  #S(PATHNAME :HOST "kathy" :DEVICE NIL :DIRECTORY directory-name :NAME "getty" :TYPE NIL :VERSION NIL) is a readable form and directory-name is not a list..
2017-02-18T23:38:13Z varjag: phoe: perhaps you can stress the difference with font or color in your rendering
2017-02-18T23:38:21Z pjb: s/ns/is
2017-02-18T23:38:33Z pjb:  #S(PATHNAME :HOST "kathy" :DEVICE NIL :DIRECTORY directory-name :NAME "getty" :TYPE NIL :VERSION NIL) #| ERROR: Unbound variable: directory-name |#
2017-02-18T23:38:50Z pjb: oh!
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2017-02-18T23:40:12Z pjb: (let ((directory-name '(:absolute "tmp")))  #S(PATHNAME :HOST "kathy" :DEVICE NIL :DIRECTORY directory-name :NAME "getty" :TYPE NIL :VERSION NIL)) #| ERROR: Can't initialize structure from (pathname :host "kathy" :device nil :directory directory-name :name "getty" :type nil :version nil). |#   More like it… (the variable couldn't be used anyways, since it's needed at read-time).
2017-02-18T23:40:24Z pjb: ccl gives strange error messages sometimes…
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2017-02-18T23:41:33Z phoe: Okay.
2017-02-18T23:41:43Z phoe: Tonight is a very bad time for trying to understand this.
2017-02-18T23:41:48Z phoe: I'll just format this and upload.
2017-02-18T23:42:36Z pjb: Instead they should have written: (equal (directory-namestring q) (directory-namestring *default-pathname-defaults*))
2017-02-18T23:44:01Z phoe: pjb: they couldn't - they needed to specify something in the return value.
2017-02-18T23:44:10Z varjag: phoe: the only better way to understand cl than making your implementation is to make your own ansi spec ;)
2017-02-18T23:44:28Z pjb: Yes, they would have to write the example without showing the whole value.
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2017-02-18T23:44:47Z pjb: (let ((q (make-pathname …))) (assert (equal …)) …)
2017-02-18T23:45:00Z phoe: varjag: hell yes
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2017-02-18T23:45:37Z phoe: Or set (pathname-directory *default-pathname-defaults*)  to some example value.
2017-02-18T23:46:02Z pjb: Yes.
2017-02-18T23:46:27Z pjb: What kind of directories would you have on the "kathy" host?
2017-02-18T23:47:00Z varjag: they didn't want you to know
2017-02-18T23:47:10Z phoe: (:ABSOLUTE "home" "kathy")
2017-02-18T23:47:13Z phoe: good enough?
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2017-02-18T23:47:30Z pjb: Yes, it's an example.
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2017-02-18T23:47:48Z phoe: Good.
2017-02-18T23:48:50Z varjag: phoe: are you going to include annotations to the spec?
2017-02-18T23:49:06Z phoe: varjag: annotations?
2017-02-18T23:49:12Z varjag: e.g. common interpretations of the murkier parts by existing implementations
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2017-02-18T23:49:25Z phoe: I can freely edit Examples and Notes section if you mean this, because they're not a part of the specification.
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2017-02-18T23:49:30Z phoe: sections*
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2017-02-18T23:49:46Z phoe: And yes, I want to - especially in the crazy parts like this one.
2017-02-18T23:50:07Z varjag: it's ok.. people annonate bible, and it's like, god's final word :p
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2017-02-18T23:52:48Z phoe: I'm scared of it, frankly.
2017-02-18T23:52:58Z phoe: I don't want my annotations to become a foundation for some weird cult.
2017-02-18T23:53:03Z phoe: There's already enough of these.
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2017-02-19T00:00:23Z phoe: I'm puzzled.
2017-02-19T00:00:31Z phoe: Why is there a class LOGICAL-PATHNAME?
2017-02-19T00:00:46Z phoe: I can see no logic at all in this bulls^Wwhole chapter.
2017-02-19T00:02:53Z Bike: and now you know why cl-fad and uiop and such are so common
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2017-02-19T00:03:38Z phoe: Bike: yes.
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2017-02-19T00:10:02Z varjag: phoe: cltl2 perhaps sheds light on motivation
2017-02-19T00:10:11Z varjag: behind some weird design decisions
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2017-02-19T00:10:36Z varjag: clhs is more like, "that's the way things are"
2017-02-19T00:11:33Z varjag: then of course, cltl2 is not a perfect mapping to x3j13 at all
2017-02-19T00:11:58Z pjb: phoe: logical pathnames are a great feature of CL.
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2017-02-19T00:12:33Z pjb: phoe: 1- they provide an interface to various file system path syntaxes (MS-Windows, unix, MacOS, Multics, VMS, etc).
2017-02-19T00:13:09Z pjb: phoe: 2- they provide a (user) configurable mapping between a set of virtual paths used by the application, and the physical pathnames where things are installed.
2017-02-19T00:13:12Z varjag: phoe: in this case it actually makes a reference to the committee work however
2017-02-19T00:13:13Z varjag: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node208.html
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2017-02-19T00:30:42Z phoe: This was a *VERY* crazy chapter
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2017-02-19T00:32:25Z phoe pushes Pathnames 
2017-02-19T00:32:32Z phoe: Next in line: Printer
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2017-02-19T02:10:26Z axion: Hmm, I figured I'd try cl-who after many years using alternatives. There is a 'bug' that bothers me a lot
2017-02-19T02:12:31Z axion: When using the HTM symbol within the macro to insert more markup, it completely ignores the indentation level (when using a non-NIL :indent argument) and instead starts at col 0, making debugging very difficult.
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2017-02-19T02:15:56Z axion: Has anyone realized this and found a solution?
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2017-02-19T02:27:37Z axion: Example of the problem I am trying to solve - the <link> tags should be at the same level as <meta>: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339454
2017-02-19T02:31:00Z Bike: how odd, it even binds a dynamic variable for it
2017-02-19T02:32:26Z Bike: but then the inner with-html rebinds it, i guess
2017-02-19T02:32:58Z axion: This bothers me so much, and I couldn't figure out why it was occuring, that I wrote a long email to Edi, but before I bothered him with the 'send' button, I'd figured I'd ask here.
2017-02-19T02:33:45Z axion: I'm not even sure if he participates on IRC
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2017-02-19T02:34:39Z Bike: doubt it
2017-02-19T02:34:47Z Bike: i think there's a github though you could just file an issue
2017-02-19T02:35:08Z axion: Yeah, probably a good idea.
2017-02-19T02:35:17Z Bike: or maybe ask H4ns?
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2017-02-19T05:25:32Z H4ns: edi is not on irc, and i'm not using cl-who
2017-02-19T05:25:59Z H4ns: but i'd merge a fix
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2017-02-19T05:36:52Z axion: H4ns: I'm not sure how one would fix it, so I'll just move back to what worked well for me for 10 years if I don't find a solution soon.
2017-02-19T05:38:18Z H4ns: axion: sorry, i can't help - i have never looked at cl-who's code.  i'm using xhtmlgen myself
2017-02-19T05:40:31Z axion: H4ns: I see, looks to be your own invention
2017-02-19T05:40:50Z axion: Oh, derivative of Franz
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2017-02-19T05:41:36Z H4ns: right.  admittedly, david lichteblau hacked htmlgen so that it generates xhtml and this is what served me for my needs since then.
2017-02-19T05:41:58Z axion: Is there any documentation aside the code?
2017-02-19T05:42:02Z H4ns: nope.
2017-02-19T05:42:07Z axion: Sad
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2017-02-19T05:45:52Z axion: indentation seems to be ignored anyway, so useless to me
2017-02-19T05:48:46Z H4ns: maybe, instead of trying to indent correctly when creating html, you could use a client-side tool to format the html?
2017-02-19T05:49:17Z H4ns: not that i could recommend anything specific, but there is a number of chrome extensions that advertise themselves as doing just that.
2017-02-19T05:49:56Z axion: chrome inspector does just that, but i want it moreso for comparing flat files
2017-02-19T05:50:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: axion: spinneret is my goto html generator
2017-02-19T05:50:07Z minion: fiddlerwoaroof, memo from phoe: yes, I have a formatting error there, just like on multiple other pages. I'll give these pages a review once I finishing bulk-changing them - right now I'm just sprinting to push them upstream in any state and fix them later.
2017-02-19T05:50:10Z axion: in the shell
2017-02-19T05:50:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/ruricolist/spinneret
2017-02-19T05:50:46Z axion: I'll check it out
2017-02-19T05:51:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure if it handles indentation correctly because I've never really used it to produce "human-readable" html
2017-02-19T05:52:34Z H4ns: spinneret looks nice, i'll try to remember next time i need to generate html.  thanks, fiddlerwoaroof
2017-02-19T05:53:24Z axion: spinneret indeed looks very nice
2017-02-19T05:54:03Z axion: Of the couple dozen libraries I've tried in the last couple of weeks, this one looks the most promising. Probably, because it has a specific goal in mind and does not try to do too much
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2017-02-19T06:00:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-19T06:59:15Z axion: fiddlerwoaroof: indentation works great, and everything about this library is working perfectly so far. Thanks
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2017-02-19T08:01:53Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-02-19T09:08:47Z shaftoe: indeed
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2017-02-19T09:31:15Z WAR-NODE: hello #lisp
2017-02-19T09:31:39Z fourier: hi
2017-02-19T09:33:26Z beach: Hello WAR-NODE.
2017-02-19T09:33:43Z WAR-NODE: howdo beach
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2017-02-19T09:37:00Z beach: WAR-NODE: Are you new here?  I don't recognize your nick.
2017-02-19T09:37:14Z WAR-NODE: yep
2017-02-19T09:37:58Z jackdaniel: welcome :)
2017-02-19T09:39:25Z beach: This channel is a bit slow during the weekend.  I assume that most participants have families to spend time with.
2017-02-19T09:40:20Z jackdaniel is factoring ext:run-progam out of the core runtime
2017-02-19T09:40:24Z jackdaniel: in ECL
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2017-02-19T09:47:30Z fourier: is where a way to rus OSX's CCL from slime without running its GUI?
2017-02-19T09:48:06Z jackdaniel: try --help, maybe there is some option called --nogui
2017-02-19T09:48:48Z fourier: jackdaniel: still spawns gui :( thanks
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2017-02-19T09:55:54Z easye: fourier: ccl doesn't spawn a GUI for me.  Maybe you are calling the "wrong"executable?
2017-02-19T09:56:27Z fourier: easye: I've installed it from appstore, and it is "/Applications/Clozure\ CL.app/Contents/MacOS/dx86cl64"
2017-02-19T09:57:45Z easye: I installed ccl via MacPorts, for which I invokes <file:/opt/local/bin/ccl64>.  Do you have an executable called ```ccl64```?
2017-02-19T09:59:04Z easye has no experience with the CCL appstore packaging.
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2017-02-19T09:59:23Z fourier: easye: I have "/Applications/Clozure CL.app/Contents/Resources/ccl/scripts/ccl64", which is a shell script who calls dx86cl64, apparently the same above
2017-02-19T09:59:49Z easye: Hmmm.  Two options spring to mind:
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2017-02-19T10:00:19Z easye: 1) install via MacPorts (disadvantages some setup, maybe you need the appstore packaging).
2017-02-19T10:00:32Z easye: 2)  download the source, build yourself.
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2017-02-19T10:01:56Z fourier: easye: does the macports package include support for cocoa?
2017-02-19T10:02:09Z easye: I think so, hold on a sec.
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2017-02-19T10:03:24Z easye: Yes, MacPorts CCL provides <file:/opt/local/share/ccl/1.11/dx86cl64> which should be the Cocoa entry-point.
2017-02-19T10:03:57Z easye has no experience with CCL and Cocoa development (rumored to be quite nice, but I "just use Emacs")
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2017-02-19T10:07:28Z easye: Full disclosure:  I am the MacPorts lang/ccl "maintainer", so if there is something lacking in Cocoa development support, we could work together to change the build/installation recipe.
2017-02-19T10:08:25Z easye: Again, maybe more work than you wanna do at this point.
2017-02-19T10:09:08Z fourier: easye: cool. I'll try to install it from macports
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2017-02-19T10:19:14Z fourier: easye: not what i need it right now, but just don't want to feel limited by it
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2017-02-19T11:42:16Z Jacobawin: Hi, I'm new to lisp. I wrote a function which prints a few strings first(print "string"), then reads an input(defvar *input* (read)), but the last print function was called after reading the input, I wonder why, thanks :)
2017-02-19T11:43:58Z Jacobawin: I'm using sbcl btw
2017-02-19T11:47:20Z jackdaniel: Jacobawin: put (finish-output) after print
2017-02-19T11:48:29Z Jacobawin: jackdaniel: thanks for the tip, is there a reason for print to be default like that?
2017-02-19T11:49:18Z jackdaniel: Jacobawin: buffering I/O is common practice greatly improving throughput
2017-02-19T11:50:18Z jackdaniel: it's usually the same with other languages
2017-02-19T11:51:45Z Jacobawin: jackdaniel: thanks for the explanation
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2017-02-19T11:56:50Z jackdaniel: sure :)
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2017-02-19T11:57:30Z loke: Hello JD
2017-02-19T11:57:38Z jackdaniel: hey loke
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2017-02-19T12:02:18Z varjag: (sb-profile:profile "CL") - arguably not a good idea -  knocks sbcl out into ldb
2017-02-19T12:02:44Z jackdaniel: varjag: increasing heap size may help
2017-02-19T12:05:24Z varjag: not sure it would help
2017-02-19T12:05:37Z varjag: complains about corrupted image
2017-02-19T12:05:42Z varjag: but worth a try
2017-02-19T12:05:59Z |3b|: yeah, modifying functions involved in implementing the modification can be bad :)
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2017-02-19T12:07:48Z |3b|: statistical profiler should include CL functions though, if you don't specifically need features of the other profiler
2017-02-19T12:08:41Z varjag: yeah, i meantioned that arguably that's not a good idea
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2017-02-19T12:09:38Z varjag: and adding the safeguards for that into profiler amounts to solving a halting problem
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2017-02-19T12:15:53Z |3b|: well, it could just reject that package entirely :)
2017-02-19T12:16:27Z varjag: ..or that :)
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2017-02-19T13:09:03Z phoe: WTF
2017-02-19T13:09:06Z phoe: clhs formatter
2017-02-19T13:09:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_format.htm
2017-02-19T13:09:12Z phoe: today I learned
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2017-02-19T13:22:39Z phoe: wait a second
2017-02-19T13:22:43Z phoe: is this lambda form correct?
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2017-02-19T13:23:14Z phoe: #'(lambda (*standard-output* &rest arguments) ...)
2017-02-19T13:24:13Z phoe: I mean, uh, if I specify a lexical variable like that, does it automatically become special?
2017-02-19T13:24:21Z phoe: and will (FORMAT T ...) automatically pick this up?
2017-02-19T13:25:45Z phoe: this is crazy, I've had no idea FORMAT behaves like that
2017-02-19T13:27:17Z parjanya: if I define one variable as another, (setq thesecond thefirst), and I change the value of thefirst, why thesecond keeps the former value? how can I make it to point to whatever the current value of thefirst is?
2017-02-19T13:27:47Z beach: phoe: It will not BECOME special.  But if it is already special, then it will be bound when the function is called.
2017-02-19T13:28:06Z beach: parjanya: You can't.  At least not like that.
2017-02-19T13:28:35Z beach: parjanya: It keeps its old value because the variable is evaluated before the SEQ is executed.
2017-02-19T13:28:47Z beach: parjanya: You can make a symbol macro though.
2017-02-19T13:29:01Z beach: clhs define-symbol-macro
2017-02-19T13:29:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm
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2017-02-19T13:29:24Z parjanya: beach: I see, but if I’m dealing with lists that /is/ possible, isn’t it?
2017-02-19T13:30:01Z beach: No.  The value of the variable is computed before the assignment takes place.  It doesn't matter what value it has.
2017-02-19T13:30:40Z parjanya: right, tx :)
2017-02-19T13:32:04Z beach: parjanya: Try (defparameter *x* '(a b c)) (defparameter *y* nil) (setq *y* *x*) (push "hello" *x*) *y*
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2017-02-19T13:33:57Z beach: parjanya: Now, of course, if you modify the object that is the value of THEFIRST variable without changing the identify of that object, then yes, they both continue to refer to that one object.
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2017-02-19T13:35:24Z beach: parjanya: Try for instance (defparameter *x* (list 'a 'b 'c)) (defparameter *y* nil) (setq *y* *x*) (push "hello" (cdr *x*)) *y*
2017-02-19T13:35:24Z beach:  
2017-02-19T13:36:23Z fourier: easye: thanks ccl from macports works
2017-02-19T13:37:55Z beach: s/the identify/the identity/
2017-02-19T13:38:37Z parjanya: I’ll need a while to digest that
2017-02-19T13:38:57Z beach: Did you try it?
2017-02-19T13:39:35Z beach: Draw the box diagrams for the CONS cells for the two examples, and you will see.
2017-02-19T13:40:19Z parjanya: I just did :)
2017-02-19T13:40:45Z beach: Do you see why it works the way it does?
2017-02-19T13:42:29Z parjanya: (testing here, hah)
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2017-02-19T13:45:03Z parjanya: well, I get it, *y* ends up pointing to *x* and if *x* changes, *x* /is/ the value of *y*, right? what would make it change the identity of the object? and why is it different for, say, a string?
2017-02-19T13:46:34Z borodust: hello, lisp gurus
2017-02-19T13:47:05Z beach: Hello borodust.
2017-02-19T13:47:15Z phoe: borodust: we ain't gurus
2017-02-19T13:47:18Z phoe: we're still learning it
2017-02-19T13:47:29Z borodust: to ccl folks, is there a way to dynamically invoke objc messages that CCL doesn't know from declarations database?
2017-02-19T13:47:40Z phoe: #ccl ?
2017-02-19T13:47:42Z borodust: not unlike cffi's #'foreign-funcall, but for messages
2017-02-19T13:47:45Z borodust: phoe: no luch
2017-02-19T13:47:48Z borodust: *luck
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2017-02-19T13:48:48Z borodust: so i thought mb someone in #lisp had similar problems
2017-02-19T13:49:45Z parjanya: it seems changing a variable using setq creates a new object, while doing push or nconc works ‘destructively’?
2017-02-19T13:49:47Z shka: http://ccl.clozure.com/manual/chapter14.4.html#Calling-Objective-C-Methods
2017-02-19T13:49:50Z beach: parjanya: http://metamodular.com/cells.png
2017-02-19T13:49:52Z shka: ah, sorry
2017-02-19T13:49:57Z shka: dynamicly
2017-02-19T13:50:08Z beach: parjanya: That is the situation in the first example.
2017-02-19T13:50:21Z beach: parjanya: If you hold on a bit, I'll create the second one too.
2017-02-19T13:50:31Z borodust: shka: yeah, some messages seems missing, or i am missing smth
2017-02-19T13:50:45Z shka: i see
2017-02-19T13:50:57Z shka: well, i don't use apple so can't help
2017-02-19T13:51:24Z borodust: shka: no probs, thanks anyway
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2017-02-19T13:53:36Z beach: parjanya: http://metamodular.com/cells.png
2017-02-19T13:53:45Z parjanya: beach: awn, really thanks
2017-02-19T13:53:48Z beach: parjanya: Do you see now?
2017-02-19T13:54:12Z fourier: borodust: have you tried with strings instead of symbols?
2017-02-19T13:55:20Z beach: parjanya: As you can see, there is absolutely no link from *y* to *x*, so the two variables are always unrelated.  But sometimes they may have the same value of course.
2017-02-19T13:55:50Z parjanya: beach: ohh I see, it points just to the car of the list
2017-02-19T13:55:59Z beach: Right.
2017-02-19T13:56:04Z borodust: fourier: i tried, (send ns:ns-application 'set-activation-policy) and ccl gives me Unknown message: "setActivationPolicy"
2017-02-19T13:56:10Z parjanya: this is so neat :-o
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2017-02-19T13:56:38Z borodust: fourier: so it correctly parses the name, but cannot invoke it
2017-02-19T13:56:51Z borodust: but it should be available: https://developer.apple.com/reference/appkit/nsapplication/1428621-setactivationpolicy?language=objc
2017-02-19T13:57:39Z fourier: borodust: you have to provide argument
2017-02-19T13:57:50Z beach: And SETQ does not create a new object.  (SETQ VAR FORM) just evaluates the FORM and sets VAR to the resulting object.  If FORM does not involve the creation of a new object, then no object gets created when the SETQ form is evaluated.
2017-02-19T13:59:33Z beach: parjanya: ↑
2017-02-19T14:00:40Z borodust: fourier: oops, i see, thanks, different exception now, i'll look into it further
2017-02-19T14:01:04Z beach: parjanya: (PUSH "hello" *x*) is essentially the same as (SETQ *x* (CONS "hello") *x*) so there is no such distinction between SETQ and PUSH.
2017-02-19T14:01:10Z parjanya: beach: uhum, I thought about variables as chunks of memory, but that’s wrong... they just point to objects, right?
2017-02-19T14:01:19Z beach: Yes.
2017-02-19T14:01:39Z beach: Hence the boxes after *x* and *y* containing pointers in my figure.
2017-02-19T14:01:48Z parjanya: so when I remove an item in a list, does it still exist? hah
2017-02-19T14:02:07Z beach: It gets garbage collected if there is no other reference to it.
2017-02-19T14:02:43Z parjanya: I thought so
2017-02-19T14:02:55Z beach: Like, if in the second example, you later do (POP (CDR *X*)) then the string "hello" will ultimately be collected.
2017-02-19T14:03:35Z beach: But if you instead do (POP *x*), then the symbol A will very likely not be collected, because it is referenced by its package.
2017-02-19T14:04:10Z parjanya: is there a way to see a list of the symbols I have?
2017-02-19T14:04:39Z beach: Sure.
2017-02-19T14:04:47Z beach: Give me a sec...
2017-02-19T14:04:58Z fourier: *
2017-02-19T14:05:15Z fourier: parjanya: use do-all-symbols
2017-02-19T14:05:27Z beach: fourier: Thanks.
2017-02-19T14:05:55Z beach: parjanya: But that is typically not something you want, because you will get every local variable that you used in your program.
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2017-02-19T14:07:50Z parjanya: it’s probably not very useful, but I like to see the inner workings of everything
2017-02-19T14:08:15Z beach: parjanya: And you will get all the symbols in all the packages that are defined by your implementation and all the symbols in all the packages that got created when you installed a system from Quicklisp.
2017-02-19T14:08:32Z beach: parjanya: so you can do (do-all-symbols (var) (print var))
2017-02-19T14:08:36Z parjanya: hah, how very cool
2017-02-19T14:08:51Z parjanya: beach: I just did that!
2017-02-19T14:09:14Z parjanya: loads of them
2017-02-19T14:10:04Z fourier: parjanya: you can use do-symbols to list only stuff in your package
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2017-02-19T14:11:27Z parjanya: that looks like all the
2017-02-19T14:12:05Z parjanya: ... usual things in the language
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2017-02-19T14:13:11Z beach: parjanya: Every time you type the name of a variable or a function for the first time, a symbol gets created in some package.
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2017-02-19T14:13:53Z beach: parjanya: Luckily, because otherwise, the second time you type the same name, you would get a different variable or a different function.
2017-02-19T14:15:44Z fourier: parjanya: for each symbol you can call find-symbol to determine if it is external, internal or inherited
2017-02-19T14:16:03Z fourier: parjanya: to filter out stuff
2017-02-19T14:16:38Z parjanya: right. from what I see lisp doesn’t want to be some binary programs in the filesystem, but having all the... structure? of programs available to the REPL... is this right?
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2017-02-19T14:18:07Z beach: Yes, it has to keep everything.  Otherwise you would not be able to redefine your functions interactively, change the value of a variable interactively, etc.
2017-02-19T14:20:16Z parjanya: funny how I started thinking about lisp because of emacs, and using emacs just because I wanted a nice way to edit tables in pure text, and here I am wanting a lisp machine ; )
2017-02-19T14:21:07Z beach: We are working on it.  Not a physical machine, but an operating system.
2017-02-19T14:21:46Z fourier: I started to use emacs because I wanted to try CL.. it was a tough choice, since  I had to learch emacs and its lisp, and CL in the same time. still sometimes I forget about differences... :(
2017-02-19T14:21:52Z parjanya: how is it going? I saw a video of Genera working and was sooo hooked
2017-02-19T14:22:38Z parjanya: people always complain about elisp, but I’m in no position to judge
2017-02-19T14:23:02Z beach: Genera is impressive, yes.  But it would not work very well today.
2017-02-19T14:23:19Z beach: It would be very sensitive to viruses and such.
2017-02-19T14:23:49Z fourier: parjanya: elisp is not that bad. need to know its limitations, but you can write stuff in it
2017-02-19T14:24:02Z parjanya: ah, certainly... everything seems to be exposed, the user they assumed really knew what he was doing
2017-02-19T14:24:18Z beach: parjanya: Emacs Lisp is implemented with an interpreter, whereas most modern Common Lisp implementation compile to native code as you type expressions.
2017-02-19T14:24:27Z fourier: parjanya: biggest so far for me lack of packages and absense of native CLOS
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2017-02-19T14:24:38Z parjanya: fourier: behold my mastery : o ) http://edgard.bikelis.com/emacs/fraktur.elisp
2017-02-19T14:25:02Z shka: elisp does what is supposed to do and does that well
2017-02-19T14:25:15Z shka: (my opinion)
2017-02-19T14:25:20Z fourier: parjanya: use cond instead of such mess with ifs
2017-02-19T14:25:31Z fourier: shka: yes
2017-02-19T14:25:52Z parjanya: I need to rewrite the whole thing, I wrote that the first day I saw how lisp works at all
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2017-02-19T14:26:54Z beach: parjanya: A right parenthesis should never be preceded by whitespace.
2017-02-19T14:27:00Z shka: got to check my food
2017-02-19T14:27:10Z shka: i don't want to burn it second time in one day
2017-02-19T14:27:16Z parjanya: beach: I know, it’s very ugly :'(
2017-02-19T14:27:37Z beach: And you have the wrong number of semicolons in the comments.
2017-02-19T14:27:52Z beach: A single semicolon for comment after code on the same line.
2017-02-19T14:28:02Z beach: Two semicolons for a comment indented as code.
2017-02-19T14:28:23Z parjanya: ahh, that’s the first time I hear that, makes all the sense
2017-02-19T14:28:49Z shka: wow
2017-02-19T14:28:50Z beach: The first left parenthesis is a group should either be the first thing on a line, or be separated from the preceding expression by a single space.
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2017-02-19T14:29:07Z shka: beach: thanks! i was just always used ;; for every comment
2017-02-19T14:29:40Z shka: ouch, can't write English again
2017-02-19T14:29:42Z beach: shka: Emacs knows these rules, so you will not take advantage of Emacs if you violate them.
2017-02-19T14:29:46Z shka: *i was just always using
2017-02-19T14:30:12Z parjanya: oka! and if a list gets too large, how do I split the line?
2017-02-19T14:30:20Z shka: i'm very crafty when it comes to violating emacs rules
2017-02-19T14:30:27Z fourier: parjanya: what beach said - you can test in emacs , type ';' on an empty line and press TAB for indentation - it will be moved to the end of line. while if you type ';;' and press TAB it will stay on a corrent indentation level
2017-02-19T14:30:46Z shka: this is funny
2017-02-19T14:30:56Z shka: i program in cl for over two years
2017-02-19T14:31:04Z shka: and i didn't knew it
2017-02-19T14:31:07Z shka: :D
2017-02-19T14:31:18Z beach: shka: "I didn't KNOW it" :)
2017-02-19T14:31:25Z beach: ...since you want to type English.
2017-02-19T14:31:33Z shka: damn
2017-02-19T14:31:46Z shka: it is hard
2017-02-19T14:32:02Z beach: also "did you WRITE a book", not "did you WROTE a book." :)
2017-02-19T14:32:30Z beach is feeling very helpful today.  Both with Common Lisp and with English.
2017-02-19T14:33:02Z shka: well, I struggle with English grammar a lot
2017-02-19T14:33:05Z parjanya: ; ))
2017-02-19T14:33:27Z beach: shka: It is one of the hardest languages I know, at least if you want to do it well.
2017-02-19T14:33:29Z shka: actually, I struggle with every grammar there is
2017-02-19T14:33:33Z parjanya: who don’ts?
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2017-02-19T14:33:44Z parjanya: (sic)
2017-02-19T14:33:48Z shka: parjanya: thanks :D
2017-02-19T14:33:57Z beach: Heh.
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2017-02-19T14:34:38Z parjanya: English is quite weird, Latin is easier for me... like "he is friends with me", that plural there
2017-02-19T14:34:56Z shka: yes, same for me
2017-02-19T14:35:40Z beach: Oh, yes, and the difference between UK and USA.  In the UK: "The government are...", In the USA: "Warner Brothers presents".  Go figure.
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2017-02-19T14:36:49Z parjanya: yes, "Warner Brothers presents" sounds specially odd, never thought of this one
2017-02-19T14:36:54Z shka: well, I have less problems with latin becauase it is inflected language with noun cases
2017-02-19T14:36:57Z shka: like polish
2017-02-19T14:37:14Z shka: at least that's what i think
2017-02-19T14:37:20Z parjanya: same here, my first language is Portuguese, so it’s all at home ; )
2017-02-19T14:38:05Z shka: I heard that Portuguese is somewhat similar to Polish
2017-02-19T14:38:15Z shka: surprisingly
2017-02-19T14:38:19Z parjanya: I’ve just finished my dissertation in Linguistics last week, and I’m trying to learn lisp to relax (!?), so don’t get me started with languages or I might flood the channel : o )
2017-02-19T14:38:27Z shka: :D
2017-02-19T14:38:33Z shka: ok
2017-02-19T14:38:42Z shka: anyway
2017-02-19T14:38:43Z parjanya: it sounds similar, from what I heard! we don’t have cases anymore, though
2017-02-19T14:39:17Z shka: do you follow any book?
2017-02-19T14:40:11Z shka: as for lisp, it is one of this languages that is worth learning even for non-programmers
2017-02-19T14:40:39Z parjanya: I’m reading Practical Common Lisp
2017-02-19T14:40:51Z shka: is it ok for you?
2017-02-19T14:41:06Z shka: accessible and all?
2017-02-19T14:41:15Z parjanya: I’ve started the Little Schemer also... I know it’s something else, but it begins more from the very basics
2017-02-19T14:42:05Z parjanya: hm, it’s very accessible, one of the most readable I’ve found so far, but the author omits a lot... on purpose, I suppose, so I understand what he does but not exactly how
2017-02-19T14:42:34Z parjanya: like my problem just now about symbols, lists &c
2017-02-19T14:42:49Z shka: if you want something that may act as introduction to programming as whole, there is another book called "Gentle introduction to symbolic computation"
2017-02-19T14:43:08Z parjanya: do I have this one? let me check : o ))
2017-02-19T14:43:37Z parjanya: I’ve learnt Basic in... 1993? then PHP, then Python, some C, but lisp is something else :-o
2017-02-19T14:43:43Z shka: it is actually written partially for peoples with interests in linguistics
2017-02-19T14:44:08Z shka: oh, ok… got impression that you are fresh ;-)
2017-02-19T14:44:48Z parjanya: well, I sound much more clueless than normal, here : o )
2017-02-19T14:44:59Z shka: no, not at all
2017-02-19T14:45:29Z shka: when i started learning lisp, it was like learning to program from start
2017-02-19T14:46:00Z parjanya: ah, tx for the tip btw, will check that book!
2017-02-19T14:46:10Z shka: you are welcome!
2017-02-19T14:46:20Z shka: also
2017-02-19T14:46:37Z shka: you may want to read this little article about packages
2017-02-19T14:46:48Z parjanya: that’s the impression I have too. the odd thing is that you start wondering what exactly is everything, that I never cared much... a list is a list, and so forth
2017-02-19T14:46:50Z shka: https://www.google.pl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi66eS5s5zSAhUBvSwKHecqAbcQFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flownet.com%2Fron%2Fpackages.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE9g7cRhNiMGhoxgWeoRb-FM2VSuA&sig2=jd4KpMoeT03JZiAv8bjaRg
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2017-02-19T14:47:29Z phoe: shka: geez
2017-02-19T14:47:30Z shka: knowing how reader works saves time a lot :-)
2017-02-19T14:47:33Z phoe: not the google link
2017-02-19T14:47:33Z parjanya: will do! right now I just know they exist
2017-02-19T14:47:41Z phoe: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf
2017-02-19T14:47:45Z shka: phoe: my intentions were pure!
2017-02-19T14:47:48Z shka: :P
2017-02-19T14:47:53Z parjanya: hah
2017-02-19T14:47:59Z rjid quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-02-19T14:48:06Z shka: anyway
2017-02-19T14:48:08Z shka: good luck!
2017-02-19T14:48:11Z shka: :-)
2017-02-19T14:48:54Z parjanya: thanks! just a few years and I’ll manage to write a hello world, I’m confident : o )
2017-02-19T14:49:16Z shka: oh, that's actually rather simple
2017-02-19T14:49:20Z shka: it goes like this
2017-02-19T14:49:25Z shka: "hello world" :D
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2017-02-19T14:50:27Z raydeejay: hello worlds usually print "hello world"...
2017-02-19T14:52:12Z parjanya: hah : o )
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2017-02-19T14:56:13Z myrkraverk: Analogous to the traditional C hello world would be (format t "Hello, world.~%")
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2017-02-19T14:58:12Z parjanya: myrkraverk: tx :) but I just meant I’m struggling even with the most basic stuff : o )
2017-02-19T14:58:14Z dim: isn't the traditional C thingy an example that you compile then run from a binary file and all?
2017-02-19T14:58:26Z parjanya: yep
2017-02-19T14:58:28Z dim: like, a full example with #include and gcc and Make and all the dance?
2017-02-19T14:58:39Z myrkraverk: dim: Yes, it's to teach you how to use the compiler and all.
2017-02-19T14:58:48Z dim: well you don't really need to understand any of that to get started in CL
2017-02-19T14:59:14Z dim: try and understand the REPL and how to build a program interactively, it's much more useful
2017-02-19T14:59:20Z myrkraverk: Nope.  If you want to do all that dance, take the above format t and put it in a hello-world.lisp and run sbcl --script hello-world.lisp
2017-02-19T14:59:38Z myrkraverk: dim: I actually rarely use the REPL.  I mostly do scripts.
2017-02-19T14:59:52Z dim: myrkraverk: so much to learn for you my friend
2017-02-19T14:59:58Z beach: myrkraverk: Sorry to hear that.
2017-02-19T15:00:06Z dim: (setf hunchentoot:*catch-errors-p* nil)
2017-02-19T15:00:13Z myrkraverk: Oh, I've used interactive lisp development, directly in emacs.
2017-02-19T15:00:15Z dim: then debug your web server interactively in the REPL!
2017-02-19T15:00:29Z dim: yeah my REPL is SLIME, of course ;-)
2017-02-19T15:00:36Z myrkraverk: But most of the time, my scripts are running on a different host.
2017-02-19T15:00:52Z dim: but I hear some people would use the Macosx CCL environment or some commercial alternatives at times
2017-02-19T15:01:02Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2017-02-19T15:01:16Z dim: myrkraverk: slime-connect to them? or ssh/tmux/emacs maybe
2017-02-19T15:01:31Z myrkraverk: I've thought about it.
2017-02-19T15:02:00Z dim: I could not enjoy lisp without the full REPL/interactive programming power it brings on the table
2017-02-19T15:02:17Z myrkraverk: But I'm one of the 2 xemacs users -- and last time I tried to set up slime I ran into some weird problems.  I guess my editor is 20 years behind current slime.
2017-02-19T15:02:17Z dim: compiling bug fixes on the fly is quite hard to accept losing
2017-02-19T15:02:30Z dim: ouch.
2017-02-19T15:03:05Z dim: maybe you should give Emacs 25 a try?
2017-02-19T15:03:25Z myrkraverk: Interesting that Slime is said to be supported on XEmacs 21 (I'm still using 21.4) and I wonder if it works.
2017-02-19T15:03:45Z myrkraverk: dim: I'm actually using some xemacs specific features.
2017-02-19T15:05:05Z myrkraverk: And I kind of like it that since no one is actively developing my editor, there are no new bugs to deal with -- only old bugs.
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2017-02-19T15:09:06Z dim: well then fix slime for it?
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2017-02-19T15:09:45Z dim: parjanya: anyway, the basic stuff in CL doesn't include building binary images that you can run without a REPL
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2017-02-19T15:11:06Z parjanya: dim: sure, the fun is in the REPL :)
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2017-02-19T15:11:43Z myrkraverk: I could do that.  When I try to do the git install, I get Wrong number of arguments: define-obsolete-variable-alias, 3
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2017-02-19T15:13:22Z dim: parjanya: the whole story usually is, or almost
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2017-02-19T15:16:28Z myrkraverk: Still trying to eval shit; I wonder if I can find an obsolete edition of slime that still has the xemacs support...
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2017-02-19T15:20:44Z dim: as long as you're happy doing archeology ;-)
2017-02-19T15:21:05Z dim: IOW would you use PostgreSQL 7.4 and GCC 2.95 to this day?
2017-02-19T15:21:41Z dim: maybe with linux 2.0.36 or something
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2017-02-19T15:22:04Z myrkraverk: dim: I use PG 9.5+ today.
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2017-02-19T15:22:24Z myrkraverk: GCC 2.95 if I ever will touch the playstation2 linux again.
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2017-02-19T15:43:59Z myrkraverk: Actually, the software archaeology wasn't complicated.  All I had to do was to find a commit in git that still mentioned xemacs.
2017-02-19T15:45:35Z loke: myrkraverk: why do you need xemacs?
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2017-02-19T15:46:16Z myrkraverk: loke: I guess it's more of a hobby, I like to poke around its internals, and since it's a "dead project" the internals don't change.
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2017-02-19T15:47:00Z loke: myrkraverk: You should join Lars in his Emacs archeaology project then?
2017-02-19T15:47:25Z myrkraverk: Maybe.
2017-02-19T15:47:28Z myrkraverk: ;     Symbol "CODE-TRACE-TABLE-OFFSET-SLOT" not found in the SB-VM package.
2017-02-19T15:47:42Z myrkraverk: This is a problem in the CL backend of slime, right?
2017-02-19T15:48:29Z myrkraverk: Apparently my editor is now "old enough" but SBCL might be too recent c;
2017-02-19T15:49:27Z loke: myrkraverk: Lars managed to build an Emacs 16
2017-02-19T15:49:29Z loke: IIRC
2017-02-19T15:49:34Z myrkraverk: Wow, impressive.
2017-02-19T15:49:59Z loke: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-16.56
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2017-02-19T15:51:38Z loke: Hej lars :-)
2017-02-19T15:52:00Z lars_b: Hej loke!
2017-02-19T15:52:03Z loke: myrkraverk: Lars has brought up Emacs on ITS (PDP-10) as well.
2017-02-19T15:52:23Z lars_b: Ah, XEmacs.
2017-02-19T15:52:58Z lars_b: https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/emacs-history/tree/sources/ftp.xemacs.org/Attic/releases
2017-02-19T15:53:01Z lars_b: That's what I have.
2017-02-19T15:53:13Z loke: I remember using Lucid emacs back in the good old days
2017-02-19T15:53:21Z loke: I likes the detached minibuffer
2017-02-19T15:53:23Z loke: liked
2017-02-19T15:53:36Z myrkraverk: I don't use a detached minibuffer.
2017-02-19T15:53:43Z lars_b: Let's talk historical.  I found what I believe to be Emacs 15.  And two releases of Emacs 17.
2017-02-19T15:53:44Z myrkraverk: But I think the code is still there, for it.
2017-02-19T15:54:15Z myrkraverk: Incidentally, I've found comments in XE dated from 1987 or so.
2017-02-19T15:54:28Z myrkraverk: lars_b: oh nice.
2017-02-19T15:54:34Z loke: I'm still trying to figure out what emacs version I started with. I thought it was 16, but 1985 feels a bit too early. Could it have been 18? When did that one come out?
2017-02-19T15:54:35Z myrkraverk: are you going to try to build it?
2017-02-19T15:54:57Z lars_b: I have done some work to build and run Emacs 16.56.
2017-02-19T15:55:14Z myrkraverk: I think I started with the versions in RedHat 6.0.
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2017-02-19T15:55:32Z myrkraverk: lars_b: yes, we've seen the github for it.
2017-02-19T15:55:50Z myrkraverk: lars_b: I've had quite a good success at running old binaries (from the early to mid 90s) on Illumos.
2017-02-19T15:56:27Z lars_b: I'm working with ITS now, so I don't have much time for Emacs history.
2017-02-19T15:56:30Z myrkraverk: I can't say if the same will apply for source code, but if the emacsen you have are meant for a sunos, that's a good starting point imo.
2017-02-19T15:56:44Z lars_b: More like VAX.
2017-02-19T15:56:49Z myrkraverk: Ah.
2017-02-19T15:57:04Z loke: Another alternative is to install BSD on VAX in an emulator?
2017-02-19T15:57:12Z myrkraverk: OpenVMS or something else?
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2017-02-19T15:57:33Z loke recalls that his first Emacs was running on a 68010 using some variation of SysV
2017-02-19T15:57:35Z lars_b: Yes, I'd like to run some old BSD to get Emacs running there.
2017-02-19T15:57:39Z myrkraverk: loke: that's one option.  The other is an OpenVMS hobbyist license + emulator.
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2017-02-19T15:58:14Z myrkraverk: But maybe emacs has always been a unix program, not VMS?
2017-02-19T15:58:17Z pjb: boot NeXTSTEP and you'll have an old BSD 4.3 with emacs 18 running on it :-)
2017-02-19T15:58:25Z lars_b: GNU Emacs did get a VMS port early on, but Unix is the native environment.
2017-02-19T15:58:27Z pjb: (not old enough?)
2017-02-19T15:58:28Z myrkraverk: I've actually been wondering if I can still get XE to run on DOS.
2017-02-19T15:58:33Z parjanya: does the emacs 16 compile?
2017-02-19T15:58:43Z pjb: You'd need an old gcc…
2017-02-19T15:58:48Z pjb: with old libc, etc.
2017-02-19T15:58:50Z myrkraverk: parjanya: yes, see the github link above.
2017-02-19T15:58:59Z loke: parjanya: It compies to temacs, but doesn't dump.
2017-02-19T15:58:59Z lars_b: Yes, Emacs 16 compiles to the point that builds temacs.  The undumped binary.
2017-02-19T15:59:05Z pjb: It's definitely a feat to compile emacs 16 today.
2017-02-19T15:59:22Z lars_b: No, I did it with mostly modern tools.
2017-02-19T15:59:23Z parjanya: I’ve just cloned it... trying to compile right now :-o
2017-02-19T15:59:30Z loke: pjb: Was Emacs 16 written by RMS alone?
2017-02-19T15:59:38Z pjb: AFAIK, yes.
2017-02-19T15:59:41Z lars_b: Ask Gosling!
2017-02-19T15:59:45Z pjb: At that time it was distributed on tapes.
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2017-02-19T16:00:06Z myrkraverk: pjb: Yes.  (for the record, I ported an old copy of ADVENTURE (with lots of VMSism and probably Fortran IV) to g77 many years ago.
2017-02-19T16:00:07Z pjb: I had a GNU tape around 1985…
2017-02-19T16:00:11Z lars_b: There was a huge brouaha due to the fact that RMS borrowed code from Gosling.
2017-02-19T16:00:23Z parjanya: "process.c:1207:14: error: storage size of ‘w’ isn’t known" ?
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2017-02-19T16:00:30Z pjb: He quickly rewrote it, hence emacs _lisp_.
2017-02-19T16:00:32Z myrkraverk: Such porting is done in two stages; hunting compilation errors one after the other; the next stage is one segfault one after the other.
2017-02-19T16:00:41Z loke: pjb: 1/4 inch?
2017-02-19T16:00:43Z lars_b: parjanya, did you checkout my branch with patches?
2017-02-19T16:00:45Z pjb: yes.
2017-02-19T16:00:53Z loke: pjb: Do you still have it?
2017-02-19T16:01:06Z pjb: no, too long ago, too many moves…
2017-02-19T16:01:23Z parjanya: lars_b: the make-it-build? if so, yes
2017-02-19T16:01:27Z lars_b: Right.
2017-02-19T16:01:38Z myrkraverk: Interestingly, elisp is borrowed heavily from maclisp (from which the original emacs ln lisp comes from)
2017-02-19T16:02:01Z lars_b: It's only natural RMS copied what he kn.ew
2017-02-19T16:02:05Z loke: myrkraverk: You can run maclisp in ITS on the PDP-10 emulator. I've been playing around with it. It's fun.
2017-02-19T16:02:05Z myrkraverk: I think some of the code in XE (and maybe gnu proper today) originally comes from maclisp emacs.
2017-02-19T16:02:11Z pjb: Eventually the GNU tapes were copied to CD-ROM of free software that were distributed in the early 90s.
2017-02-19T16:02:27Z myrkraverk: loke: nice.  Maybe I will some day.
2017-02-19T16:02:44Z loke: myrkraverk: lars_b has created a turnkey-ready implementation:
2017-02-19T16:03:01Z parjanya: lars_b: should I do "bash build-install" or something else?
2017-02-19T16:03:07Z loke: https://github.com/PDP-10/its
2017-02-19T16:03:22Z lars_b: parjanya, no...   Just "make".  I think.
2017-02-19T16:03:27Z loke: myrkraverk: clone that one and build, it'll give you a ready-made image that you can run maclisp in.
2017-02-19T16:03:46Z loke: parjanya: You need to have "expect" installed.
2017-02-19T16:04:05Z loke: parjanya: Or you can log in to lars's networked pdp-10 :-)
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2017-02-19T16:04:41Z lars_b: It's just a test site.  I want to be able to rebuild the disk image without users complaining.
2017-02-19T16:04:44Z loke: The REPL in maclisp is kind of funny. It's not buffered, so when typing the final ) in a form, it immediately responds. No return needed :-)
2017-02-19T16:04:55Z lars_b: YEs, that's an interesting feature.
2017-02-19T16:04:59Z myrkraverk: oh, that's funny c;
2017-02-19T16:05:04Z parjanya: loke: hah... well, I don’t even know why am I trying :-o
2017-02-19T16:05:19Z myrkraverk: I can imagine it's lead to a lot of "oh I didn't mean that" c;
2017-02-19T16:05:40Z loke: I've also decided that using TECO to edit Lisp code was not fun.
2017-02-19T16:05:49Z pjb: :-)
2017-02-19T16:05:58Z pjb: Don't you load the EMACS TECO package?
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2017-02-19T16:06:20Z lars_b: EMACS TECO packages only work in EMACS, not in TECO.
2017-02-19T16:06:32Z loke: pjb: Lars has set up the ITS image to bundle Emacs, but I've been stubborn and wanting to use TECO, for fun and self-flaggelation.
2017-02-19T16:06:34Z pjb: I don't mean the TECO EMACS package.
2017-02-19T16:07:15Z loke: lars_b: Wait a second. I thought that when I run :EMACS in your ITS, I'm getting the TECO-based Emacs. Apparnetly I was wrong?
2017-02-19T16:07:26Z pjb: EMACS stared as an TECO Editor MACroS library.
2017-02-19T16:07:31Z lars_b: loke, no that's right.
2017-02-19T16:07:36Z loke: I see
2017-02-19T16:07:43Z lars_b: There's no other EMACS in ITS.
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2017-02-19T16:07:58Z loke: lars_b: So the question is, can one load the original TECO Emacs macros into ITS TECO?
2017-02-19T16:08:07Z lars_b: No.
2017-02-19T16:08:20Z myrkraverk: I wonder if that works on VMS TECO.
2017-02-19T16:08:29Z myrkraverk: Afaict, OpenVMS still has TECO.
2017-02-19T16:08:31Z lars_b: EMACS provides a special environment for TECO code.  It's not just any TECO that can be loaded.
2017-02-19T16:08:44Z loke: myrkraverk: I have videoteco on my Linux :-)
2017-02-19T16:08:52Z myrkraverk: c;
2017-02-19T16:08:55Z myrkraverk: interesting.
2017-02-19T16:09:05Z loke: videoteco is better than vi, IMHO
2017-02-19T16:10:04Z loke: pjb: Since you know some thing about maclisp, can you tell me why I don't have MOD or REM in it?
2017-02-19T16:10:10Z loke: I also don't have /
2017-02-19T16:10:19Z lars_b: QUOTIENT and REMINDER
2017-02-19T16:10:21Z pjb: DIVIDE or QUOTIENT I'd say.
2017-02-19T16:10:23Z loke: I was trying to write a prime number checker in it
2017-02-19T16:10:26Z lars_b: I told you to go look in the Pitmanual.
2017-02-19T16:10:40Z loke: lars_b: I didn't do it yet
2017-02-19T16:10:42Z loke: :-)
2017-02-19T16:10:55Z loke: OK, I'll play with it later.
2017-02-19T16:11:04Z loke: Now it's time to leave. See you guys around later.
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2017-02-19T16:18:13Z myrkraverk: Does the slime protocol change?  Can I try to mix slime from the past, with swank from the future?
2017-02-19T16:18:48Z phoe: myrkraverk: you can try, but expect things to explode.
2017-02-19T16:19:02Z myrkraverk: Hmm.
2017-02-19T16:19:50Z myrkraverk: I'll try it later then c;
2017-02-19T16:22:51Z lars_b: If you can fetch sofware from the future, I can think of a few requests.
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2017-02-19T16:27:33Z myrkraverk: I mean, when I've checked out an old slime, I think in terms of swank from the future.
2017-02-19T16:30:00Z myrkraverk: lars_b: this is relevant: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.emacs/cbojrDqCuAM
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2017-02-19T16:40:39Z myrkraverk: Well, it did work to comment out (so far) the offending line in swank.  Now I have an old slime with a new sbcl.
2017-02-19T16:40:58Z myrkraverk: But again, I have no idea where or when it'll explode.
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2017-02-19T16:44:21Z myrkraverk: Time to read the manual and/or go through tutorials.
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2017-02-19T16:47:48Z parjanya: lars_b: "emacs: Terminal type "ansi" is not powerful enough to run Emacs." what does it expect?
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2017-02-19T16:51:05Z joga: hmm... my emacs works with ansi just fine I think... tried "linux"?
2017-02-19T16:51:28Z joga: or xterm-256color or xterm or vt100 or ..
2017-02-19T16:52:45Z parjanya: it seems I’ve managed to compile emacs 16.56 :-o
2017-02-19T16:53:05Z parjanya: but it doesn’t like these... let me try vt100
2017-02-19T16:53:05Z edgar-rft: if "ansi" is too weak, try "gost" instead
2017-02-19T16:53:50Z parjanya: vt100 worked, but segfaulted :'( ! gost didn’t work
2017-02-19T16:54:02Z parjanya: I guess it’s the libcurses fault
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2017-02-19T16:54:42Z edgar-rft: for "gost" you probably need a russian computer
2017-02-19T16:54:49Z joga: emacs 16.56? how ancient is that
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2017-02-19T16:55:02Z parjanya: joga: 1985
2017-02-19T16:55:06Z joga: nice
2017-02-19T16:55:09Z joga: I've 24.5.1 apparently
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2017-02-19T16:56:11Z parjanya: hah : o ) sigh, it even starts drawing the screen, then crashes
2017-02-19T16:56:49Z edgar-rft: parjanya: that was normal with emacs in 1985 :-)
2017-02-19T16:58:21Z parjanya: ; )) have you used it since then?
2017-02-19T16:59:39Z edgar-rft: I never got it to work because either "not enough memory" or constantly swapping, or several minutes GC cycles and similar shit like that
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2017-02-19T17:00:13Z borodust: fouric: thanks much for the tip, i finally got the window on the macos screen :)
2017-02-19T17:00:47Z edgar-rft: parjanya: probably my machine was too weak for emacs in 1985 :-)
2017-02-19T17:01:26Z edgar-rft: It was overwhelmed by the power of Emacs!
2017-02-19T17:02:49Z parjanya: ; )) I just wanted a screen shot, why oh why? [drama here]
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2017-02-19T17:05:29Z borodust: oops, got nicks wrong
2017-02-19T17:05:35Z borodust: D:
2017-02-19T17:05:52Z borodust: fourier: thanks much for the tip, i finally got the window on the macos screen :)
2017-02-19T17:06:11Z borodust: fouric fourier: my apologies
2017-02-19T17:07:00Z edgar-rft: parjanya: it looked somewhat like this <https://picload.org/image/rrpiillg/mcclim-desktop.png>
2017-02-19T17:08:54Z edgar-rft: parjanya: here are some emacs screenshots from that time <http://www.aquest.com/emacs.htm>
2017-02-19T17:10:30Z parjanya: edgar-rft: ahh tx, checking it :)
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2017-02-19T17:20:56Z lars_b: parjanya: Yes.  Use vt100 instead.
2017-02-19T17:21:28Z myrkraverk: In a lisp buffer I have (Lisp [? sbcl]) in my moodeline.  What's the ? for?
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2017-02-19T17:25:47Z dim: current package I think
2017-02-19T17:26:05Z lars_b: I'm leaving now.
2017-02-19T17:26:36Z lars_b: parjanya: Please post pull requests or issues if you figure something out with Emacs 16.
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2017-02-19T17:31:20Z fourier: borodust: cool!
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2017-02-19T17:34:22Z sindan: can a place be stored in a variable and then pass the variable to setf so that setf modifies the place in the variable?
2017-02-19T17:35:58Z jackdaniel: sindan: no. You may want to use symbol-macrolet for that
2017-02-19T17:36:26Z sindan: is it clear what I'm asking?
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2017-02-19T17:37:00Z jackdaniel: I suppose so, you want to have for instance A = (CAR B), and to have (setf a 3) be equivalent to (setf (car b) 3)
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2017-02-19T17:37:07Z jackdaniel: you want symbol-macrolet if I'm right
2017-02-19T17:37:17Z sindan: aha thanks
2017-02-19T17:38:39Z Bike: though keep in mind you can't then pass the 'place' to a function
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2017-02-19T17:42:29Z sindan: Bike: i'll read up on it. It's just to shorten some notation a bit, but no big deal if it's going to be cumbersome for what I need.
2017-02-19T17:43:01Z attila_lendvai: sindan: IOW, that "place" only exists at compile time
2017-02-19T17:43:08Z Bike: shortening notation is basically what symbol macrolet is for
2017-02-19T17:44:08Z fourier: sindan: make macroexpand on any statement with with-slots as an example
2017-02-19T17:44:35Z sindan: it's the mecanism used for it right?
2017-02-19T17:44:49Z _death: you could pass a function instead of a place.. e.g., (defmacro setter (place) (let ((value (gensym))) `(lambda (,value) (setf ,place ,value)))) .. this assumes it's only one value
2017-02-19T17:45:13Z fourier: sindan: yes
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2017-02-19T17:46:56Z Bike: jackdaniel: beach suggested i work on an ecl backend for cleavir. is the documentation in the manual for the code of the intermediate C accurate, or are you changing things for your rewrite or what
2017-02-19T17:47:04Z sindan: I understand, guys. Thanks for the help!
2017-02-19T17:48:07Z _death: (a correct version would use get-setf-expansion to avoid multiple evaluation issue)
2017-02-19T17:48:59Z jackdaniel: Bike: which parts of the manual you refer to?
2017-02-19T17:49:17Z Bike: uhhhhh.... chapter four in part three
2017-02-19T17:50:57Z jackdaniel: things covered there won't change, but I wouldn't call it documentation for intermediate C
2017-02-19T17:51:07Z jackdaniel: (there isn't any for now)
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2017-02-19T17:53:20Z Bike: well, there's not a lot in there, it's true
2017-02-19T17:53:22Z jackdaniel: well, there is a bit how to interact with core, yes, all that is up-to-date
2017-02-19T17:53:44Z Bike: and to do this i'd probably have to stare at a lot of compiled output regardless
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2017-02-19T17:54:33Z jackdaniel: I'm reworking compiler internals, when I'll completely separate passes I'll let you know. In branch newcmp-2nd-try there is already partial separation of them
2017-02-19T17:54:38Z jackdaniel: you may find it useful
2017-02-19T17:55:03Z jackdaniel: to see the files in second pass (see src/cmp/load.lsp.in file for some annotations of files)
2017-02-19T17:55:44Z Bike: alright
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2017-02-19T18:02:30Z jackdaniel: Bike: and if you just want to see what compiler would output, you may simply do (disassemble '(lambda () (+ 1 2)))
2017-02-19T18:02:44Z Bike: yeah i saw that, seems convenient
2017-02-19T18:02:52Z Bike: does that do all three files though? or maybe just c and h
2017-02-19T18:03:05Z jackdaniel: only lambda function definition
2017-02-19T18:03:39Z jackdaniel: compile-file has three arguments if you want to preserve the intermediate code
2017-02-19T18:04:02Z jackdaniel: &key c-file h-file and data-file
2017-02-19T18:04:14Z Bike: i see
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2017-02-19T18:53:08Z frodef: I've sometimes been thinking about making a new CL, written in and coexisting with "old" CL, simply by making a new package of mostly thin wrappers around old functions to modernize it, remove some old baggage etc.. A bit of a herecy I know, but is there perhaps something like this going on already?
2017-02-19T18:53:41Z Bike: i've seen a few things like that
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2017-02-19T18:54:37Z fourier: frodef: search for CL21
2017-02-19T18:54:49Z Bike: there was also one to make all the math functions generic
2017-02-19T18:54:52Z fourier: frodef: this presentation for example http://www.slideshare.net/fukamachi/redesigning-common-lisp
2017-02-19T18:55:13Z Bike: https://github.com/ghollisjr/cl-ana/wiki/Generic-Math generic-math, i guess
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2017-02-19T18:56:22Z fourier: frodef: also https://github.com/vseloved/rutils
2017-02-19T18:57:21Z fourier: cannot quickly recall others, but should be others as well. having macro facility in the language encourages people to "reinvent" CL
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2017-02-19T18:59:35Z frodef: Seems an obvious ting to do, yes :)
2017-02-19T18:59:45Z frodef: Thanks for suggestions, IU
2017-02-19T18:59:51Z frodef: ..I'll have a look.
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2017-02-19T19:01:04Z Bike: there are also approximately a trillion utility libraries, and stuff for language extensions like the several "LET* but moreso"s
2017-02-19T19:03:03Z _death: also ibcl
2017-02-19T19:05:17Z fourier: Bike: yes it seems me as a great limitation of the language. Core is ok but if people continue to implement macros like that then it is something obiviously wrong with a language. Then the vendors/compiler developers will pick any it will be a step forward. Right now only one library - ASDF - included more/less in all CL distributions "out of box". I wish at least Alexandria could be "built in" as well :(
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2017-02-19T19:07:55Z _death: alexandria is just a utilities library.. what does it matter whether it's built-in or not
2017-02-19T19:08:15Z fourier: _death: it exists because core utilities are lacking stuff
2017-02-19T19:08:32Z _death: many libraries like it exist as well
2017-02-19T19:08:50Z varjag: it is built with "core utilities", so hard to tell they are lacking anything
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2017-02-19T19:09:24Z fourier: varjag: you can built whatever you want with just lambdas, the question is of convenience
2017-02-19T19:09:35Z varjag: i don't really think that 10 convenience functions for plists belong to the language standard
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2017-02-19T19:09:47Z varjag: fourier: no
2017-02-19T19:09:57Z varjag: you can't built defconstant with lambdas
2017-02-19T19:10:01Z varjag: for example
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2017-02-19T19:10:37Z _death: you've not answered my question.. what does it matter if it comes bundled or not.. you can always load it and save a new core
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2017-02-19T19:11:22Z fourier: varjag: couldn't it be just a lambda returning constant value ? need to check my lambda calculus books
2017-02-19T19:11:45Z varjag: i'd like to see it done in actual code
2017-02-19T19:11:55Z varjag: rather than in church notation
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2017-02-19T19:12:41Z varjag: plenty other things too
2017-02-19T19:12:53Z varjag: how would you build DISASSEMBLE with lambdas?
2017-02-19T19:12:55Z fourier: _death: portability probably. when I download any asdf system I can load it in any more-less modern CL
2017-02-19T19:13:23Z _death: fourier: alexandria is already portable.. how would it benefit
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2017-02-19T19:14:19Z fourier: _death: I give you an example. I can write when-let in LW straight away, but can't in other distributions. Alexandria fixes that. I would prefer having this stuff built in in other CLs as well
2017-02-19T19:14:58Z _death: so save a new core with it and there you have it
2017-02-19T19:15:04Z fourier: varjag: theoretically it is possible. convenience question lead us to the stuff I've said- more convenience functions to the core of a language
2017-02-19T19:15:32Z fourier: _death: but I can't distribute code using it without boundling/relying on alexandria
2017-02-19T19:15:34Z varjag: fourier: lisp already has more built in functions than about any other language still in use
2017-02-19T19:15:43Z varjag: i don't see how adding more would benifit anything
2017-02-19T19:15:56Z _death: fourier: that is why you have quicklisp and asdf
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2017-02-19T19:16:15Z fourier: _death: bingo. asdf is build in, quicklisp is not
2017-02-19T19:16:23Z Bike: defconstant couldn't be implemented with other facilities. it has compile time semantics.
2017-02-19T19:16:30Z varjag: asdf is not built in
2017-02-19T19:16:35Z varjag: it's a library
2017-02-19T19:16:36Z Xach: heh
2017-02-19T19:16:49Z _death: fourier: so you should argue that quicklisp should be builtin, not alexandria..
2017-02-19T19:16:52Z fourier: varjag: but it is supplied with CL distributions
2017-02-19T19:17:32Z fourier: _death: that would be the best for the infrastructure I believe
2017-02-19T19:17:39Z varjag: tons of things are supplied with cl distributions
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2017-02-19T19:17:48Z varjag: asdf has no relation to ansi spec
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2017-02-19T19:18:21Z fourier: varjag: whatever I believe you could implement find-if, but it is still built-in function
2017-02-19T19:18:29Z _death: fourier: quicklisp is still in beta.. so I'm guessing the author doesn't yet see that it should be elevated to such a status.. and when it's out of beta, vendors will have to be convinced
2017-02-19T19:18:43Z Xach: i do not think quicklisp should be part of any implementation.
2017-02-19T19:18:54Z fourier: _death: same with alexandria, forever beta
2017-02-19T19:19:07Z _death: fourier: but like I said.. alexandria is just a utilities library
2017-02-19T19:19:29Z varjag: fourier: at that time it was already believed cl has too many functions
2017-02-19T19:19:37Z varjag: and find-if is a great example
2017-02-19T19:19:39Z varjag: clhs find-if
2017-02-19T19:19:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_.htm
2017-02-19T19:19:57Z varjag: " The function find-if-not is deprecated. "
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2017-02-19T19:20:18Z Xach: you can never take away my find-if-not
2017-02-19T19:20:37Z varjag: true that
2017-02-19T19:21:10Z Bike: lambdas come out named "gazonk". how about that
2017-02-19T19:21:43Z fourier: _death: it doesn't matter, parts of alexandria are already in some distribution. it exist because the standard is lacking these obivious things. But since standard is not evolving, the only "standard" is what vendors supply. For example parts of boost library eventually arived to the C++ standard, making bettor life for everyone
2017-02-19T19:21:58Z varjag: Bike: no point renaming things unless they come with shorter character count!
2017-02-19T19:22:25Z phoe: varjag: that's how Perl happened
2017-02-19T19:22:28Z _death: fourier: that is a political process in which you have to convince vendors.. good luck with that
2017-02-19T19:23:20Z varjag: fourier: it will be cold day in hell when lisp adopts c++ views on language evolution
2017-02-19T19:23:51Z _death: fourier: for me, assumption of asdf is sufficient.. I don't need to write quicklisp-specific code, so I don't care whether it's bundled or not
2017-02-19T19:24:25Z varjag: the standard could use updating, but trivia functions isn't something really sought after
2017-02-19T19:24:57Z Xach: Local package nicknames would to me be something worth the work of coordination among vendors.
2017-02-19T19:25:04Z Xach: well, somebody else's work.
2017-02-19T19:25:13Z varjag: heh
2017-02-19T19:25:19Z fourier: _death: I will not convince vendors. if vendors are not interested in evolution of the language, you know what will happen to the language
2017-02-19T19:25:33Z Xach: they are conceptually simple and seem (ha) reasonably easy to implement
2017-02-19T19:25:47Z _death: fourier: perhaps each vendor evolves the language as he sees fit
2017-02-19T19:26:04Z Bike: did sbcl have an extension for em
2017-02-19T19:26:23Z Bike: or maybe that was just 3b
2017-02-19T19:26:54Z fourier: varjag: to include most used and requested features by users to the language from the most used and tested library? not sure why it is a bad practice.
2017-02-19T19:27:18Z _death: fourier: also, the only "dead" languages are languages that can no longer be learned, in my opinion
2017-02-19T19:27:41Z fourier: _death: probably, if the difference are the too big hence the demand on "standartization" happens
2017-02-19T19:27:43Z varjag: fourier: it's not a bad practice.. if your language lacks things decent container types and iterators in the first place
2017-02-19T19:27:54Z varjag: sure, revise it and make the library part of the standard
2017-02-19T19:28:50Z varjag: fourier: there are rough corners in common lisp, and they are exactly the kind of things that are painful or impossible to fix with libraries
2017-02-19T19:29:41Z _death: fourier: for example, languages that change every day are quite unlearnable, hence dead.. or if you like, they become language families, and so people know some but not necessarily all of them, and since they change every day, there's more and more chance of not keeping up
2017-02-19T19:30:13Z fe[nl]ix: :D
2017-02-19T19:30:21Z fourier: varjag: looking at CDRs I see at least 3 proposals which could be libraries
2017-02-19T19:30:42Z fe[nl]ix: fourier: I dear you to find an up-to-date Rust tutorial :D
2017-02-19T19:31:35Z fourier: fe[nl]ix: still the code written in C++98 could be compiled by C++11, not an argument
2017-02-19T19:31:58Z varjag: some of the code :)
2017-02-19T19:31:59Z Xach: vendors are pretty sensitive to paying customers. that is how we got the spec in the first place.
2017-02-19T19:32:04Z Xach network lag
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2017-02-19T19:32:31Z fe[nl]ix: fourier: not so much with Rust. stuff from one year ago has been deprecated and no longer compiles
2017-02-19T19:33:06Z fourier: varjag: 99.99% of it. probably stuff where people used "auto" for some reason could not be compiled. Personally after 1.5 years in C++11 I couldn't find more parts like this.
2017-02-19T19:33:13Z varjag: fe[nl]ix: they promised to be non-breaking since v 1.0 or something
2017-02-19T19:33:19Z frodef: Like I said, bit of a herecy.. sorry :)
2017-02-19T19:33:43Z _death: fourier: it doesn't matter that you can write C++98, if all the code around you is C++17 and the people around you will bash you for your old style
2017-02-19T19:33:47Z fe[nl]ix: varjag: we'll see about that
2017-02-19T19:33:53Z fe[nl]ix: frodef: "heresy"
2017-02-19T19:34:20Z frodef: fe[nl]ix: right, thanks
2017-02-19T19:34:33Z varjag: hearsay!
2017-02-19T19:35:29Z fourier: _death: but you still can write 98 code and it will compile and run. Yet old code is still compatible.
2017-02-19T19:35:36Z aeth: varjag: I think find-if-not is deprecated because (find-if-not #'some-function foo) should be equivalent with (find-if (complement #'some-function) foo)
2017-02-19T19:35:53Z varjag: aeth: yes
2017-02-19T19:36:16Z aeth: and a smart enough compiler should produce identical code for both
2017-02-19T19:36:17Z varjag: it's also pretty consistent that you don't measure standard evolution with the number of functions added
2017-02-19T19:36:24Z _death: fourier: they only maintain backward compatibility so that they'll have a chance of being adopted
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2017-02-19T19:37:44Z _death: fourier: but the communities that adopt them won't look favorably towards C++98isms, because they already adopted C++17
2017-02-19T19:37:50Z fourier: _death: it is all about engineering decisions - some guys just like Rust, Python etc just brake everything, others like C++ carefull make changes keeping older code still compilable.
2017-02-19T19:37:52Z aeth: interestingly, sbcl is not a smart enough compiler for my example :-p
2017-02-19T19:38:07Z varjag: it's worth keeping in mind the spec was written in the days before omnipresent internet and before package managers for language were even a thing
2017-02-19T19:38:41Z varjag: so putting a good beachhead of convenience constructs into the language was a worthy tradeoff
2017-02-19T19:39:06Z aeth: Disassembling two functions, (defun foo-complement (x) (find-if (complement #'zerop) x)) and (defun foo-not (x) (find-if-not #'zerop x)) SBCL doesn't turn find-if complement into find-if-not (it calls #'find-if in #'foo-complement and #'find-if-not in #'foo-not)
2017-02-19T19:39:07Z fourier: _death: sure, because c++17 is better, why not. it is called evolution, not the revolution.
2017-02-19T19:40:04Z _death: fourier: so again.. if you come up with NewCL and convince all others to adopt it, good job.. but for now, CL vendors each go on their own way, and people are free to choose their vendor, and there are portable libraries etc.
2017-02-19T19:40:42Z _death: fourier: the people who adopt C++17 may think it's better.. but not everyone.. some people just stick with C++98, or move on to another language
2017-02-19T19:41:47Z Xach: aeth: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3138883562099900%40naggum.no.html has a bit on that topic
2017-02-19T19:42:30Z pjb:  fourier: notice how the versions 1.8, 1.9, 1.10 … lead the actual version named 2.0.
2017-02-19T19:43:15Z pjb: fourier: in consequence, I name those version with a difference: 2.0-0.02, 2.0-0.01, 2.0-0.10 … which gives a increasing serie until 2.0.
2017-02-19T19:43:16Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: awesome :)
2017-02-19T19:43:28Z aeth: Xach: I'm surprised implementations don't go after low hanging fruit for optimization like this, at least when it's not (debug 3) (speed 0) or something.
2017-02-19T19:43:31Z fourier: _death: this is the job for authors of CL21 and so on, not for me. As for people who just stick with c++98 there are a lot of reasons - compilers quality, tools like lint, validators for MISRA C++ etc...
2017-02-19T19:43:59Z pjb: fourier: now, consider the serie c++10, C++11, etc C++17.  It is not an evolution, it's a serie that asymtotically reaches some kind of optimum language.
2017-02-19T19:44:13Z _death: fourier: sure, I'm just saying that not everyone may see C++17 (or CL21) as progress
2017-02-19T19:44:19Z pjb: fourier: And here it's #lisp, we know the optimum language: it's Common Lisp.
2017-02-19T19:44:32Z _death: you know evolution does not necessarily mean progress..
2017-02-19T19:44:33Z fourier: pjb: if there is a thing as optimum language :)
2017-02-19T19:44:34Z pjb: It's not progress, it's less regression.
2017-02-19T19:44:40Z phoe: pjb: you don't reach optimum, you only reach critical mass
2017-02-19T19:44:41Z Bike: aeth: recognizing (complement #'foo) is a bit annoying to do except maybe in kind of a facile way
2017-02-19T19:44:44Z pjb: fourier: there is, a local optimum.
2017-02-19T19:45:12Z pjb: and CL macros are there to skip from one local optimum to the other.
2017-02-19T19:45:23Z aeth: Bike: yeah but the whole point of compilers is that they do the things that are annoying for me to do, for me
2017-02-19T19:45:38Z aeth: otherwise I could just write on macros on top of s-expressionized assembly or something.
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2017-02-19T19:46:54Z aeth: pjb: CL is lacking a lot of optimum features, e.g. something as simple as typed lists and/or immutable lists.
2017-02-19T19:47:11Z aeth: Lists are so key to CL and yet at the same time, serious non-macro code is mostly about avoiding lists for something else.
2017-02-19T19:47:12Z pjb: But you can implement them trivially in CL if you need them.
2017-02-19T19:47:19Z Bike: like, for example say you want to implement find-if in terms of position-if. you write (position-if predicate ...) somewhere. now you have to inline find-if or something to make position-if recognize when it's getting a complement
2017-02-19T19:47:29Z pjb: This is why CL is the best programming language ever: you can always make it evolve to your needs.
2017-02-19T19:47:47Z aeth: pjb: Almost everything is trivial to implement in CL in some way. The question of language compiler support is imo one of *efficient* implementation.
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2017-02-19T19:48:29Z aeth: "Upgraded lists" like upgraded vectors could have optimizations if supported by the standard.
2017-02-19T19:48:50Z aeth: And it'd have built-in type checking (except maybe at (speed 3) (safety 0))
2017-02-19T19:49:08Z varjag: the standard is purposefully vague on compiler optimizations
2017-02-19T19:49:21Z Bike: i don't think upgraded lists would be terribly useful
2017-02-19T19:49:38Z varjag: e.g. fixnum size is not codified
2017-02-19T19:49:39Z pjb: Think about cdr-consing…
2017-02-19T19:49:40Z Bike: indicating the type of elements of a list, maybe
2017-02-19T19:49:45Z aeth: varjag: Right, the idea is that it can be potentially optimized if you use CCL or SBCL or similar implementations, but still e.g. runnable as compile-to-JS if you're willing to give up quite a few possible implementations
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2017-02-19T19:49:57Z aeth: (although I doubt they had JS itself in mind at the time, but still)
2017-02-19T19:49:58Z varjag: and thank god for that.. had it been done in 1994 it would've been some 30 bits
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2017-02-19T19:51:25Z _death: a minimum fixnum size is codified, I believe
2017-02-19T19:51:44Z _death: a supertype of (signed-byte 16)
2017-02-19T19:51:50Z phoe: yes
2017-02-19T19:51:55Z aeth: Generally, minimum sizes are defined, but they're often far too low (e.g. arrays are 1024, and I think I've seen some docstrings longer than that, which afaik would then technically be non-portable docstrings)
2017-02-19T19:52:03Z Bike: all those NES lisp programmers really lost out
2017-02-19T19:52:25Z ebrasca: Can I get some feedback for my project https://github.com/ebrasca/l-system ?
2017-02-19T19:52:50Z aeth: A standard update should imo up some of the minimum sizes (but lower the minimum size for short-float, which afaik is the only thing where the minimum is too *high* to be useful today, since it's too large for IEEE short-floats)
2017-02-19T19:53:23Z fourier: ebrasca: for starters better readme :) what is it, the purpose, usage, and only then what it is based on :)
2017-02-19T19:53:25Z aeth: Although maybe some people here can think of another place where the minimum was set too high.
2017-02-19T19:54:00Z varjag: aeth: i am not sure how much these list optimizations would make a differene absent cache locality
2017-02-19T19:54:12Z varjag: from performance pov
2017-02-19T19:54:37Z varjag: simple arrays and strings are naturally cache-local
2017-02-19T19:54:41Z varjag: lists are a mess!
2017-02-19T19:54:51Z fourier: ebrasca: in l-system.lisp not a single comment by yourself (2 comments only and both autogenerated)
2017-02-19T19:54:53Z aeth: varjag: In almost all implementations, lists aren't actually cons pairs unless conses are being used in a fancy way, and they haven't been like that since the 1970s or earlier afaik.
2017-02-19T19:55:07Z aeth: It's even there in the Lisp Machine Manual
2017-02-19T19:55:23Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDR_coding
2017-02-19T19:56:11Z aeth: Immutable, "upgraded" lists would afaik improve CDR coding and thus compete with upgraded arrays in performance.
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2017-02-19T19:56:27Z aeth: I haven't implemented CDR coding myself, though, so I am not an expert here.
2017-02-19T19:56:29Z varjag: i'm aware of cdr coding
2017-02-19T19:56:38Z Xach: ebrasca: if you use a markdown readme, you could link to an explanation of what lindenmeyers systems are
2017-02-19T19:57:01Z Bike: an api would be good also
2017-02-19T19:57:06Z varjag: but it quickly breaks down if you use lists not as improptu arrays
2017-02-19T19:57:29Z ebrasca: Xach: can org-mode do it?
2017-02-19T19:57:43Z Bike: it's not totally clear to me how to read the example, even knowing about lsystems
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2017-02-19T19:58:15Z aeth: varjag: Immutable, upgraded, lazy lists could borrow a lot of techniques from Haskell afaik, but again, I am not experienced here. (Even Scheme has standard lazy lists now.)
2017-02-19T19:58:19Z Xach: ebrasca: I don't know
2017-02-19T19:58:51Z fourier: ebrasca: what Xach said, but github renders Markdown, I doubt it could render org
2017-02-19T19:58:58Z Bike: well if they're lazy they're probably not going to be cdr coded
2017-02-19T19:58:58Z aeth: And yes, there are probably 12 lazy list libraries, but they can't optimize as much as Haskell's GHC can.
2017-02-19T19:59:05Z phoe: ebrasca: orgmode can export to markdown.
2017-02-19T19:59:17Z aeth: Bike: right, it's a related issue, but not an identical issue
2017-02-19T19:59:19Z Bike: i have no idea why anybody has ever wanted cdr coding, though
2017-02-19T19:59:25Z Bike: arrays are right there
2017-02-19T19:59:29Z varjag: yeah
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2017-02-19T20:03:58Z Xach: fourier: it does render org.
2017-02-19T20:04:12Z fourier: Xach: wow cudos to github guys
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2017-02-19T20:11:37Z jurov: has it been proven immutability somves anything? iirc not
2017-02-19T20:11:40Z jurov: *solves
2017-02-19T20:12:52Z frodef: CL21 looks pretty reasonable.
2017-02-19T20:13:14Z varjag: immutability per se doesn't solve list performance issue
2017-02-19T20:13:37Z varjag: if your program is immutably constructing a complex tree or graph like structure out of list cells
2017-02-19T20:14:11Z varjag: i don't see how you can achieve any substantial degree of cache locality
2017-02-19T20:14:26Z varjag: it's a price you have sometimes to pay
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2017-02-19T20:15:28Z cro__: by reducing the number of things that can change for a given function, you have an easier time reasoning about if it's correct or not
2017-02-19T20:16:46Z jurov: Bike: cdr-conding probably because you can both allow for a tree structure and save memory
2017-02-19T20:19:46Z payphone: Is there an acceptable way to generate a bunch of similar classes from a list of their names at compile time? This is what I have so far: http://paste.lisp.org/+79YT
2017-02-19T20:21:18Z Bike: avoid eval
2017-02-19T20:21:31Z Bike: if it's at compile time, just use macrolet
2017-02-19T20:21:38Z aeth: Immutability would probably solve a lot if you have plists or alists that won't change.
2017-02-19T20:21:40Z Bike: with pretty much that same code otherwise
2017-02-19T20:22:27Z payphone: Macrolet is what I'm looking for, thanks!
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2017-02-19T20:22:49Z aeth: Implementations could probably do clever things with a read-only plist or alist, depending on the size of the list or even how the list is used (probably only if it is declared or found to be dynamic extent in the latter case)
2017-02-19T20:23:16Z aeth: And plists are really one of the most natural ways to express a lot of things in CL imo.
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2017-02-19T20:24:06Z _death: payphone: I'd do something like (metalist (class-name) "Generate subclasses for SUPERCLASS" `(defclass ,class-name (superclass) ()) ((class1) (class2) (class3) (class4))) given a metalist operator..
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2017-02-19T20:25:23Z varjag: aeth: half the point with plists is you can modify the properties
2017-02-19T20:25:46Z varjag: it's a bad idiom for immutable langauge imo
2017-02-19T20:25:48Z Bike: you can do that by pushing to the front, though.
2017-02-19T20:26:01Z ebrasca: phoe: org-mode files work on github. https://github.com/ebrasca/test
2017-02-19T20:26:02Z varjag: yes, but then you waste storage and degrade access
2017-02-19T20:26:50Z aeth: varjag: Consider the case where plists are used as e.g. a configuration file. If it's a command line utility or other some simple program that doesn't allow changing config from within the program, then you're only reading in a plist from a file, and then acting on that read-only plist.
2017-02-19T20:27:01Z aeth: s/other some/some other/
2017-02-19T20:27:44Z ebrasca: fourier Xach phoe : Thank you.
2017-02-19T20:28:12Z aeth: plists are syntactically the most natural thing for config files in CL unless you want to use an external or custom non-sexp format
2017-02-19T20:28:23Z varjag: aeth: yes of course there are trivial cases like that
2017-02-19T20:28:47Z varjag: at the same time it's hard to see them as convincing illustrations of pure fp programming
2017-02-19T20:28:47Z jurov: OK, suppose you do (declare (immutable myplist)) .. what could the compiler do? it can't replace all accesses with constants anyway
2017-02-19T20:28:59Z aeth: varjag: Oh, it's not necessarily trivial, the config file could be hundreds or thousands long. The only constraint is just not modifiable from within the program.
2017-02-19T20:29:26Z varjag: i hope you agree it's kind of contrived
2017-02-19T20:29:41Z varjag: esp not modifiable part :)
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2017-02-19T20:31:16Z aeth: Is it? Any program that doesn't require interaction from the starting user while the program is running might do this, unless command line flags do a permanent modification to the config file or something.
2017-02-19T20:31:38Z aeth: It seems like the natural consequence of mixing the Common Lisp language with a Unix text-config-driven environment.
2017-02-19T20:32:20Z jurov: you mean it will recompile itself every time it finds configfile changed?
2017-02-19T20:32:40Z varjag: no he means it reads the config into a plist
2017-02-19T20:32:46Z varjag: fair enough that sure works
2017-02-19T20:32:56Z varjag: i just don't see advantage over a "mutable" language here
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2017-02-19T20:33:04Z varjag: you can read that into the same plist
2017-02-19T20:33:16Z varjag: and choose to avoid destructive operations on it
2017-02-19T20:34:21Z jurov: i do see potential advantage if the compiler can treat config values as constants... but not sure if recompilation time is worth it
2017-02-19T20:34:24Z aeth: Even if there were no optimization advantages, you get some added safety because something that is immutable shouldn't have any destructive operations applied to it, and if such a thing happens, it is almost certainly a bug of some sort.
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2017-02-19T20:35:58Z aeth: I'd rather know that a destructive operation was attempted and failed than have it silently mutate the data that was otherwise treated as immutable by the programmer.
2017-02-19T20:36:15Z varjag: how does that happen?
2017-02-19T20:36:25Z varjag: destructiveness in lisp is explicit in the spec
2017-02-19T20:36:25Z jurov: aeth: what about using CLOS then? it's easy to have read-only properties
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2017-02-19T20:38:18Z varjag: well programmer error can lead to that, sure enough
2017-02-19T20:38:20Z aeth: varjag: I've mutated a literal (e.g. '(1 2 3)) list before in a large enough application, which of course caused undefined behavior, which in SBCL meant that the state of that list persisted between runs until SLIME was restarted.... and that's something that SBCL should normally catch with a warning.
2017-02-19T20:38:29Z varjag: using delete instead of remove etc
2017-02-19T20:38:39Z aeth: So anything that's just treated as immutable by convention, not even the language, should be easier to accidentally mutate.
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2017-02-19T20:40:59Z jurov: varjag: that's more like compiler implementation missing feature... throwing error on that under (debug 3) would fall under "undefined behavior" and thus be standard-complient
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2017-02-19T20:42:32Z jurov: but prolly adding immutability flag to every cons would need extensive changes :/
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2017-02-19T20:47:03Z White_Flame: aeth: you mentioned cdr coding; are there any implementations today that still use it?  I thought it was only really useful in hardware implementations
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2017-02-19T20:49:05Z aeth: White_Flame: I'm actually not sure. It doesn't help that CL implementations' sources (where available) are all over the Internet so it would probably take some effort to read all of them
2017-02-19T20:49:35Z White_Flame: all disassemblies I've seen out of sbcl and ccl have all cons cells as cons cells
2017-02-19T20:49:55Z White_Flame: the only list optimization I'm aware of is &rest lists that don't escape, are considered as resident right on the stack
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2017-02-19T20:51:13Z varjag: yeah.. cdr coding was lisp machines feature
2017-02-19T20:51:29Z White_Flame: I really don't think cdr coding is ever used.  The downside of having to check multiple types of references, the length of the cdr run, etc, is slower than just having a single path of indirecting through cdr pointers
2017-02-19T20:51:44Z White_Flame: (is ever used in reasonable software implmenetations, that is)
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2017-02-19T20:52:10Z varjag: guess it was worth it for sake of saving a bunch of pointer cells
2017-02-19T20:52:12Z aeth: White_Flame: it's not just &rest lists, afaik, it's defaults in &optional and &key too, at least in SBCL
2017-02-19T20:52:18Z varjag: in the days of expensive memory
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2017-02-19T20:52:29Z White_Flame: and CL heaps don't even have tag bytes around the cons cells, but leave that as tag bits in the pointer referencing them.  So the allocation is just literally 2 word writes
2017-02-19T20:52:44Z aeth: (I could be wrong, it would be interesting to check)
2017-02-19T20:53:29Z White_Flame: I'm just really questioning this quote: "In almost all implementations, lists aren't actually cons pairs unless conses are being used in a fancy way, and they haven't been like that since the 1970s or earlier afaik"
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2017-02-19T20:53:50Z aeth: White_Flame: I wasn't aware of that. Things I've read on the Internet must be extremely out of date, then.
2017-02-19T20:53:58Z aeth: That doesn't surprise me.
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2017-02-19T20:55:02Z jurov: ECL really does it the classical way
2017-02-19T20:55:29Z phoe: jurov: by means of PDP-10 assembly?
2017-02-19T20:55:41Z phoe: that's as classical as I can imagine
2017-02-19T20:56:11Z jurov: lol no i meant: struct ecl_cons { cl_object car;    cl_object cdr; };
2017-02-19T20:56:34Z White_Flame: I've only peeked through SBCL and some CCL, but I consider them to be pretty modern reliable implementations with reasonable decisions
2017-02-19T20:56:35Z aeth: phoe: close, PDP-11 assembly, i.e. C
2017-02-19T20:57:23Z White_Flame: but even then, no tag bytes on the struct itself in ECL?
2017-02-19T20:58:12Z jurov: iirc only tag bit is for fixnum/pointer
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2017-02-19T21:02:07Z mrottenkolber1: (stream (unsigned-byte 8)) is not a type? :-(
2017-02-19T21:02:37Z jurov: er... immediate value/pointer, and immediate value can encode fixnum and bunch of other things.
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2017-02-19T21:12:45Z _death: mrottenkolber1: (satisfies byte-stream-p) is a typespec..
2017-02-19T21:13:19Z _death: (or perhaps, octet-stream-p)
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2017-02-19T21:25:42Z White_Flame: jurov: I'm not talking about tags on the pointer side, but tags in the heap
2017-02-19T21:26:10Z White_Flame: so if a pointer doesn't have tag bits describing the nature of what it's pointing to, the heap data has to have descriptor bytes
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2017-02-19T21:27:12Z White_Flame: either per-object, or per page
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2017-02-19T21:34:47Z jurov: White_Flame: it uses both, tagged pointer/fixnum and tagged union of everything else
2017-02-19T21:35:06Z White_Flame: ah, ok.  So that car/cdr struct isn't the full structure that's stored per cons cell
2017-02-19T21:35:45Z jurov: but it is
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2017-02-19T21:35:57Z White_Flame: so what identifies it as a cons cell?
2017-02-19T21:36:15Z White_Flame: ie, the tagged union, if the only big in the pointer means "this is a pointer"
2017-02-19T21:36:19Z White_Flame: *bit
2017-02-19T21:36:33Z jurov: ah sorry, ther's another bit that say it's cons
2017-02-19T21:36:42Z White_Flame: ah, ok.  makes sense
2017-02-19T21:36:54Z jurov: and fourth value is the bigger union structure
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2017-02-19T21:37:24Z White_Flame: similar to SBCL then, optimizing away heap tags for cons cells
2017-02-19T21:38:21Z jurov: on vaguely related note, pity we don't have more sanctioned tag bits on x86_64
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2017-02-19T21:39:42Z mrottenkolber1: _death: oh thanks!
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2017-02-19T21:43:03Z ebrasca: fourier: I have found my library lack of some features.When making some documentation.
2017-02-19T21:44:00Z ebrasca: fourier: It is hard make good documentation.
2017-02-19T21:46:17Z ebrasca: phoe: How are you doing with clos documentation?
2017-02-19T21:48:14Z phoe: ebrasca: you mean CLUS? Slowly but onwards.
2017-02-19T21:48:45Z ebrasca: phoe: yes CLUS.
2017-02-19T21:50:39Z ebrasca: phoe: How do you document someting?. For me it is hard to do it.
2017-02-19T21:51:17Z ebrasca: phoe: In my mind I have images and I can't translate to words.
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2017-02-19T22:07:02Z fourier: ebrasca: yes sure it is hard. but without it nobody needs you code. nobody needs undocumented code because 1) nobody understands (besides author) what it is doing, 2) nobody understands how to use it  3) nobody understands the reason why it is needed
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2017-02-19T22:32:44Z ebrasca: is there some package maker based on tags?
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2017-02-19T22:48:51Z Xach: If you make something that does something very useful or fun, people will overlook some things in order to use it.
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2017-02-19T22:51:49Z fourier: Xach: yes they will, but it is a bad engineering practice :\
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2017-02-19T22:57:25Z ebrasca: fourier: what is good or bad engineering practice?
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2017-02-19T23:06:25Z fourier: ebrasca: just read Clean Code for example: https://www.amazon.com/Clean-Code-Handbook-Software-Craftsmanship/dp/0132350882/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487545568&sr=8-1&keywords=clean+code
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2017-02-19T23:10:09Z ebrasca: fourier: Amazon are evil. https://www.stallman.org/amazon.html
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2017-02-19T23:13:03Z fourier: ebrasca: doesn't matter. just buy in the nearest book store
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2017-02-19T23:25:27Z attila_lendvai: fourier: bad or not, you only have so much time on earth. every minute you spend on something is not spent on everything else...
2017-02-19T23:29:21Z pillton: Hah. Then you'd spend majority of your time optimising your time.
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2017-02-19T23:32:04Z ebrasca can finish it in another life.
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2017-02-20T00:02:46Z |3b|: Bike: i had a prototype of package local nicknames for sbcl, then sbcl implemented a real version, and i think one other implementation also did (abcl or ecl maybe?)
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2017-02-20T00:03:23Z |3b|: i think there were forks of my prototype for some other implementation too, though never really looked at them
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2017-02-20T00:18:46Z pillton: Oh nice. http://www.sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Package_002dLocal-Nicknames
2017-02-20T00:18:50Z pillton: |3b|: Thanks.
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2017-02-20T01:52:48Z burton`: If I have class (defclass point ()  ((x :initarg :x :accessor point-x) (y :initarg :y :accessor point-y), I cannot seem to use #'point-x as a location with setf, like so (setf (funcall #'point-x *point*) 1).
2017-02-20T01:53:26Z burton`: I'm trying to make a system where I store the slot accessor in another structure and use it at runtime to dynamically update the slot.
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2017-02-20T01:53:46Z burton`: Is there a way to make this possible?
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2017-02-20T01:55:07Z Bike: BusFactor1: setf funcall doesn't work, you can do do (funcall #'(setf point-x) ...) though
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2017-02-20T01:56:37Z BusFactor1: #'(setf point-x)?  is that CLOS magic?
2017-02-20T01:56:37Z |3b|: but remember new value comes first when calling it manually
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2017-02-20T01:56:52Z |3b|: it is SETF magic
2017-02-20T01:56:52Z Bike: no, you can just have functions named (setf whatever)
2017-02-20T01:57:12Z |3b|: (and 'special case in the spec' magic)
2017-02-20T01:57:40Z BusFactor1: Do you know what section?
2017-02-20T01:58:17Z |3b|: clhs function
2017-02-20T01:58:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_fn.htm
2017-02-20T01:58:22Z Bike: for setf? 5, i think?
2017-02-20T01:59:27Z BusFactor1: Yes, for that paticular piece of setf magic.  I haven't seen it before.
2017-02-20T02:00:11Z BusFactor1: Oh, I see. Found it.
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2017-02-20T02:34:00Z BusFactor1: How would I call #'point-x through a variable using the setf schemantics?
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2017-02-20T02:34:54Z BusFactor1: Calling (funcall (setf accessor) ...) where accessor is bound to #'point-x doesn't look to work as expected...I'm assuming accessor isn't being evaulated in the setf form.
2017-02-20T02:37:14Z Zhivago: (defstruct foo bar) (defvar x (make-foo :bar 10)) (funcall #'(setf foo-bar) 12 x) x -> #S(FOO :BAR 12)
2017-02-20T02:37:40Z Zhivago: Ah, that won't work.
2017-02-20T02:37:57Z Zhivago: setf needs to the form of the place it is setting at compile-time.
2017-02-20T02:38:19Z Zhivago: Perhaps you want to wrap the setf form in a lambda and use that to decouple the update semantics?
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2017-02-20T02:43:57Z |3b|: Zhivago: also, struct accessors aren't guaranteed to be setf functions
2017-02-20T02:44:16Z |3b|: (defclass foo (x :accessor x)) (funcall #'(setf x) 1 foo)
2017-02-20T02:44:31Z |3b|: or store #'(setf x) in a variable and funcall that
2017-02-20T02:47:00Z |3b|: for structs you would need to wrap it in a lambda or something
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2017-02-20T02:55:48Z BusFactor1: |3b|: I've tried this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339538
2017-02-20T02:56:23Z BusFactor1: But I'm still not getting it correct.
2017-02-20T02:57:26Z |3b|: yeah, you probably need to store the setf function separately from the reader
2017-02-20T02:58:06Z |3b|: 'accessor' means it has both a reader and writer, but #'foo will just get you the reader part and you can't get the writer part from that
2017-02-20T02:59:33Z |3b|: (well, if you store the name, you might be able to get the writer from that, but i think there are some edge cases that would be hard to account for)
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2017-02-20T03:01:47Z |3b|: with what you have now, your SETF-ACCESSOR is a function to modify the ACCESSOR slot specifically, which probably not what you want
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2017-02-20T03:12:26Z Bike: also... since i don't think any of us have mentioned it yet... could just use slot-value
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2017-02-20T04:33:00Z BusFactor1: Bike: Ding! That was what i was looking for.  Thanks.
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2017-02-20T04:43:05Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-20T04:46:12Z BusFactor1: morning beach
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2017-02-20T05:10:15Z BusFactor1: I got into the app store with my LispWorks application: https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/typing-english-edition/id1205351354?mt=12
2017-02-20T05:10:48Z BusFactor1: Twice: https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/typing-common-lisp-edition/id1202707132?mt=12
2017-02-20T05:12:56Z BusFactor1: They're a couple of typing games, mostly an experiement to see if there would be any problems getting a lisp application into the MacOS App Store.
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2017-02-20T05:15:08Z BusFactor1: Here's a graphics only demo video of the 'English Edition': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7zr8oMfQT4
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2017-02-20T06:56:52Z BusFactor1: Is there an equivalent of somethig like 'this' in CLOS that I could use in an :initform?  I want to save the object to a global array at instantiation time.
2017-02-20T06:57:40Z shka: BusFactor1: nope
2017-02-20T06:58:05Z shka: BusFactor1: but there is GF called initialize-instance
2017-02-20T06:58:16Z shka: that is more or less a constructor
2017-02-20T06:58:18Z TruePika: meh
2017-02-20T06:58:19Z shka: you can use it
2017-02-20T06:58:29Z TruePika: I want to use Unicode in my source file
2017-02-20T06:58:40Z shka: TruePika: you sick bastard… :P
2017-02-20T06:58:42Z TruePika: Vim has no complaints, SBCL has no complaints
2017-02-20T06:58:58Z TruePika: shka: stuff like Greek characters
2017-02-20T06:59:09Z TruePika: the problem is I can't get readline(3) to cooperate
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2017-02-20T07:00:35Z TruePika: I type the character pi, terminal receives 0xCF 0x80; readline sees it as M-O C-M-@ I think
2017-02-20T07:01:06Z TruePika: If I prefix with ^V, there's still the unescaped C-M-@
2017-02-20T07:01:48Z TruePika: ...meh, nope, there's still a problem if I run SBCL directly
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2017-02-20T07:05:12Z TruePika: okay, it appears as though the terminal driver (either PuTTY, screen, or something in the kernel; I'm not sure) doesn't understand UTF-8 entirely
2017-02-20T07:05:53Z TruePika: not screen, hopefully not PuTTY
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2017-02-20T07:07:03Z TruePika: shka: I'm starting to understand why
2017-02-20T07:08:27Z TruePika: If I type pi, that sends the two `char` 0xCF 0x80 (UTF-8 codepoint); If I backspace once, it gets rid of only the 0x80, leaving the 0xCF (which is ofc invalid)
2017-02-20T07:10:03Z TruePika: hm, did the MIT Lisp machines support characters outside CL's BASE-CHAR in stuff like symbol names, or only in comments (and possibly strings)?
2017-02-20T07:10:26Z Bike: they might not have had base char?
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2017-02-20T07:10:38Z TruePika: Bike: I'm referring to CL's BASE-CHAR
2017-02-20T07:10:45Z Bike: yes
2017-02-20T07:10:55Z |3b|: works for me in sbcl+putty, though i can't see the character :p
2017-02-20T07:11:15Z Bike: oh do you mean the fixed set in standard-char
2017-02-20T07:11:22Z TruePika: yeah
2017-02-20T07:11:26Z TruePika: the 96 or so
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2017-02-20T07:11:58Z TruePika really hopes right now those chars were only usable in comments
2017-02-20T07:12:29Z TruePika: |3b|: What shell?
2017-02-20T07:12:37Z TruePika: (it might make a difference, IDK)
2017-02-20T07:13:19Z |3b|: bash i think
2017-02-20T07:13:25Z TruePika: meh, same here
2017-02-20T07:14:17Z |3b|: does locale list utf8 locales? (at the shell)
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2017-02-20T07:14:52Z TruePika: en_US.UTF-8, yeah
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2017-02-20T07:15:18Z TruePika: though I can't type anything outside ASCII (it seems) at bash
2017-02-20T07:15:45Z TruePika: which I think _might_ indicate an issue of sorts...?
2017-02-20T07:16:00Z |3b|: what is SB-IMPL::*DEFAULT-EXTERNAL-FORMAT* in sbcl?
2017-02-20T07:16:11Z TruePika: should be utf8
2017-02-20T07:16:54Z |3b|: right, but it 'should be' working too :)
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2017-02-20T07:17:21Z TruePika could have sworn PuTTY had _some_ option related to 8-bit characters
2017-02-20T07:17:39Z |3b|: ah, check putty settings under window/translation
2017-02-20T07:17:43Z TruePika: :UTF-8
2017-02-20T07:18:00Z TruePika: Unicode is "working", in a sense
2017-02-20T07:18:15Z loke: TruePika: Are you sure it's always UTF-8?
2017-02-20T07:18:18Z |3b|: running screen or anything like that?
2017-02-20T07:18:37Z TruePika: Let me restate my issue, methinks
2017-02-20T07:19:12Z TruePika: If I'm executing SBCL directly (i.e. no rlwrap), the following key sequence results in a string with the single character pi in it:
2017-02-20T07:19:18Z TruePika: "<pi>"
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2017-02-20T07:19:34Z TruePika: (where <pi> is a binding)
2017-02-20T07:19:44Z loke: The default-external-format is set to whatever the OS environment is confiured to. Model Linux environments are always UTF-8, but it's possible to set it to something else (whcih I have seen misinformed people do). What the default is on Windows, I have no idea.
2017-02-20T07:19:54Z |3b| pasted it with mouse, no idea how to type it
2017-02-20T07:19:58Z TruePika: The following key sequence results in a string with just the replacement character (note: not empty string):
2017-02-20T07:20:03Z TruePika: "<pi><backspace>"
2017-02-20T07:20:17Z loke: TruePika: Can you show the output of the "locale" command?
2017-02-20T07:20:22Z TruePika: If I run SBCL inside rlwrap, I can't get any Unicode passed at all
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2017-02-20T07:21:00Z |3b|: ah, yeah i get that too
2017-02-20T07:21:06Z TruePika: loke: LANG and LC_* except LC_ALL are en_US.UTF-8; LANGUAGE and LC_ALL are null
2017-02-20T07:21:39Z loke: TruePika: What kind of environment are you running in? GNOME? Are you ssh'ed into a different machine?
2017-02-20T07:21:51Z |3b|: not sure who is responsible for backspace working
2017-02-20T07:22:06Z loke: |3b|: The tty driver in the kernel.
2017-02-20T07:22:09Z TruePika: loke: SSH'd into a Debian 6 VM, issue appears with or without screen
2017-02-20T07:22:22Z loke: TruePika: What are you sshing from?
2017-02-20T07:22:23Z TruePika: backspace being used is ^? if it makes any difference (it shouldn't)
2017-02-20T07:22:27Z |3b|: loke: through ssh?
2017-02-20T07:22:39Z TruePika: loke: PuTTY
2017-02-20T07:22:47Z loke: TruePika: Did you configure putty to use UTF-8?
2017-02-20T07:23:06Z TruePika: yes, and showkey(1) does indicate the correct sequence is being sent
2017-02-20T07:23:11Z loke: I think putty insanely enough uses 8859-1 by default.
2017-02-20T07:23:39Z loke: TruePika: Debian 6 is mightly old. Are you sure it has UTF-8 locales installed?
2017-02-20T07:23:43Z TruePika: it does, but my VM configuration always uses UTF-8
2017-02-20T07:24:10Z |3b| sees same thing in debian 8.7 (didn't try with rlwrap though)
2017-02-20T07:24:14Z TruePika: loke: I can deal with Unicode 100% fine from within Vim
2017-02-20T07:25:21Z TruePika: also you think 6 is old, I have an IIRC 5 install somewhere
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2017-02-20T07:25:31Z loke: TruePika: Those are the obvious ones I can think of. Seemd you have a pretty clean UTF-8 path all the way into SBCL
2017-02-20T07:25:31Z TruePika: which can't be upgraded since powerpc
2017-02-20T07:25:49Z loke: TruePika: Might want to migrate that one to Netbsd?
2017-02-20T07:25:52Z TruePika: SBCL itself doesn't have issues with Unicode, just the terminal driver
2017-02-20T07:25:58Z TruePika: loke: It's a Wii
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2017-02-20T07:26:11Z loke: TruePika: Might want to throw that one away :-)
2017-02-20T07:26:40Z TruePika: I use it as a low-power long-execution-time dedicated Lisp box
2017-02-20T07:27:02Z TruePika: doesn't take CPU away from my server, and is unaffected by me halting my VM
2017-02-20T07:27:39Z TruePika: also I know that doesn't have working UTF-8 support ;)
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2017-02-20T07:28:39Z TruePika: I think my main issue is that the terminal isn't acting the way I'd expect it to
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2017-02-20T07:29:10Z TruePika: I mean, you'd expect pi to be one character, not two (especially since it is one glyph)
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2017-02-20T07:29:44Z TruePika: and then readline is a PITA
2017-02-20T07:29:50Z |3b| gets 1 character, but backspace doesn't delete the whole thing
2017-02-20T07:30:16Z TruePika: |3b|: (elt * 0) => #\REPLACEMENT_CHARACTER ?
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2017-02-20T07:31:27Z |3b|: something like that (testing with COERCE 'LIST or CHAR-CODE instead)
2017-02-20T07:32:02Z TruePika: Right now, my theory is that the kernel's line editing facility doesn't know UTF-8
2017-02-20T07:32:18Z TruePika is assuming the kernel
2017-02-20T07:33:50Z |3b|: same thing from connectbot on android for whatever that's worth :)
2017-02-20T07:33:58Z loke: You are referring to this one? ‘π’
2017-02-20T07:34:38Z TruePika: loke: IRC client's config doesn't support Unicode (long story related to a CP437 terminal)
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2017-02-20T07:35:23Z TruePika: (yes I use the 80x25 character terminal on my server sometimes, deal with it)
2017-02-20T07:36:21Z TruePika: loke: U+FFFD?
2017-02-20T07:36:24Z |3b| can't see it either, but emacs says it is the right character
2017-02-20T07:36:28Z |3b|: (pi that is)
2017-02-20T07:36:47Z TruePika tries to type pi... .
2017-02-20T07:36:52Z TruePika: all I see is a dot
2017-02-20T07:37:19Z |3b|: yeah, looks like it sent a dot
2017-02-20T07:37:31Z loke: Code point is U+03C0
2017-02-20T07:37:40Z TruePika: pi I'm using is U+03C0, yeah
2017-02-20T07:37:50Z TruePika: UTF-8 0xCF 0x80
2017-02-20T07:40:09Z TruePika: but I don't want to have to e.g. hit backspace 4 times to get rid of e.g. #\PILE_OF_POO U+1F4A9 <some 4 UTF-8 bytes>
2017-02-20T07:40:23Z TruePika: (not that I expect to use that character in any serious code)
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2017-02-20T07:44:28Z |3b|: yeah, that's annoying, particularly since it looks like it is deleting other chars
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2017-02-20T07:44:48Z BusFactor1: Does anybody have an idea of what this might mean? error: No applicable methods for #<STANDARD-GENERIC-FUNCTION CLOS:SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS 41B02DBD74> with args (#<BUILT-IN-CLASS SYMBOL 4190374A63> *A* X)
2017-02-20T07:45:16Z |3b|: arguments in wrong order?
2017-02-20T07:46:15Z BusFactor1: I don't think so.
2017-02-20T07:46:30Z Bike: mop slot-value-using-class
2017-02-20T07:46:31Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/slot-value-using-class.html
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2017-02-20T07:46:50Z Bike: surely *a* should be evaluated?
2017-02-20T07:46:58Z BusFactor1: i am using slot value, but I haven't touched that for a while.
2017-02-20T07:47:07Z BusFactor1: This is in a macro, so I might be missing something there.
2017-02-20T07:47:49Z TruePika: well, I guess there isn't much of a chance I can use Greek anytime soon to shorten my function names
2017-02-20T07:47:50Z beach: Also X should have been an effective slot definition metaobject.
2017-02-20T07:47:57Z TruePika: and still be useful at REPL
2017-02-20T07:48:54Z TruePika: then again, I'm not sure many other modern languages even have this kind of Unicode support
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2017-02-20T07:48:58Z beach: BusFactor1: Wait, are you using slot-value on something that is not a standard object?
2017-02-20T07:49:26Z TruePika: (I consider CL to be a "modern language")
2017-02-20T07:49:47Z beach: BusFactor1: Like (slot-value '*a* 'x)?
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2017-02-20T07:49:57Z beach: Rather than (slot-value *a* 'x)?
2017-02-20T07:50:05Z BusFactor1: Not intentionally
2017-02-20T07:50:16Z beach: It looks like you do.
2017-02-20T07:50:34Z beach: Because it finds the class of the argument and that class is the built-in class SYMBOL.
2017-02-20T07:50:53Z beach: And the object you are trying to take the slot value of is the symbol *A*.
2017-02-20T07:51:10Z TruePika: isn't this in a macro?
2017-02-20T07:51:17Z TruePika: did you forget a comma?
2017-02-20T07:51:22Z BusFactor1: I think I see what's happening.  I'm trying to pass keyword arguments to a helper function and I"m setting the default arguments in the macro.
2017-02-20T07:51:36Z BusFactor1: I've never used default arguments in macros before and I think I'm not doing it correctly.
2017-02-20T07:52:53Z beach: What is a "default argument"?
2017-02-20T07:53:04Z BusFactor1: Like a default keyword value.
2017-02-20T07:53:59Z TruePika: &optional (foo 2) ?
2017-02-20T07:54:06Z BusFactor1: But it's evaulating slot value on the macro argument *a* at runtime
2017-02-20T07:54:11Z TruePika: or &key (foo 2) ?
2017-02-20T07:54:19Z BusFactor1: At compile time I mean
2017-02-20T07:54:33Z BusFactor1: &keys are being used
2017-02-20T07:54:58Z beach: BusFactor1: Maybe instead of having us try to guess, you should paste the code?
2017-02-20T07:55:24Z BusFactor1: I know what it is now.  I'm not doing the right thing for what I want.
2017-02-20T07:55:37Z beach: OK.
2017-02-20T07:55:38Z BusFactor1: The problem is hard to explain.
2017-02-20T07:55:53Z TruePika really wants to see a USB Space Cadet keyboard which can type Unicode
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2017-02-20T08:03:32Z jdz: Keyboards don't type unicode -- they provide scan codes.
2017-02-20T08:03:56Z jdz: The rest is up to driver and presentation.
2017-02-20T08:04:20Z flip214: jdz: an RS232 kbd provides direct ASCII input... and so, with the right firmware, should be able to provide UTF8 too
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2017-02-20T08:05:32Z dtscode: hey guys! I am reading "lisp in small pieces" and it showed some interesting syntax: (lookup (symbol->variable exp) env)
2017-02-20T08:05:39Z dtscode: what does -> mean here?
2017-02-20T08:05:55Z jdz: Nothing.
2017-02-20T08:06:00Z jdz: It's part of the name.
2017-02-20T08:06:05Z dtscode: ah
2017-02-20T08:06:21Z Bike: i mean, conceptually it means it's a function that turns a symbol into a variable, though
2017-02-20T08:06:28Z jdz: A naming convention used in functions that transform things.
2017-02-20T08:06:40Z dtscode: that makes sense
2017-02-20T08:06:42Z dtscode: thanks guys
2017-02-20T08:06:51Z dtscode: I've been writing too much C it things
2017-02-20T08:06:55Z dtscode: s/things/seems/
2017-02-20T08:07:09Z jdz: It might have also been named symbol-to-variable or sym2var or whatever.
2017-02-20T08:07:15Z dtscode: right
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2017-02-20T09:37:08Z dtscode: ok, a new lisp in small pieces question... I see the expression (or a snippet of one): (if (symbol? exp) (lookup exp env) exp). Lookup is defined as (lookup variable environment) -> value. So my question is, doesn't value returned from lookup get discarded, and the result of the if is just exp?
2017-02-20T09:37:49Z ogamita: clhs if
2017-02-20T09:37:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_if.htm
2017-02-20T09:38:11Z dtscode: oh derp
2017-02-20T09:38:17Z ogamita: dtscode: now, of course it looks like your code sample is written in scheme, in which case you have to read r5rs or r7rs.
2017-02-20T09:38:33Z dtscode: ogamita: right. lisp in small pieces is atm using scheme
2017-02-20T09:38:53Z dtscode: I forgot for a moment that the if needs to return something if true, otherwise return something else
2017-02-20T09:38:57Z ogamita: So: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
2017-02-20T09:39:09Z dtscode: not sure why I thought it should just be (if (condition) return_result)
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2017-02-20T09:42:51Z loke: Lisp in small pieces is misnamed, it should be called Scheme in small pieces.
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2017-02-20T09:44:36Z beach: SiSP?
2017-02-20T09:45:48Z flip214: Small Pieces Of Common sKeme
2017-02-20T09:45:57Z loke: Why not?
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2017-02-20T09:52:18Z dtscode: ha
2017-02-20T09:52:19Z dtscode: nice
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2017-02-20T10:28:19Z malice`: hey all
2017-02-20T10:28:27Z beach: Hello malice`.
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2017-02-20T10:37:35Z myrkraverk: loke: I've only read the 2nd edtion, but it goes from lisp 1 to lisp 2 to lisp omega (iirc).
2017-02-20T10:38:08Z myrkraverk: So it doesn't *only* cover implementing scheme, but the example code is (mostly) scheme.
2017-02-20T10:39:23Z myrkraverk: One chapter is about implementing a lisp n in lambda calculus.  I've yet to delve deeply into that, though.
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2017-02-20T10:47:54Z dtscode: http://i.imgur.com/DmLsrUK.png (sorry for picture... won't let me copy text) If I understand the case statement correctly, it takes the first item in e via car. It then tests to see if that value is one of those four functions, otherwise falls to that else
2017-02-20T10:48:00Z dtscode: am I right so far?
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2017-02-20T10:49:01Z beach: Yes, except that they are not names of functions, which is why they need to be handled specially.
2017-02-20T10:49:18Z dtscode: what would be the proper term for them?
2017-02-20T10:49:29Z beach: In Common Lisp we call them "special operators".
2017-02-20T10:49:33Z dtscode: ah ok
2017-02-20T10:49:46Z dtscode: they act in the same way as functions right?
2017-02-20T10:49:51Z phoe_: nope
2017-02-20T10:50:03Z phoe_: a function always evaulates all of its arguments.
2017-02-20T10:50:07Z dtscode: oh right... ignore me
2017-02-20T10:50:08Z beach: dtscode: The ELSE clause is where a function call is evaluated.
2017-02-20T10:50:11Z phoe_: a special operator needs not.
2017-02-20T10:50:14Z dtscode: right
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2017-02-20T10:50:19Z phoe_: a macro needs not, too.
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2017-02-20T10:50:34Z dtscode: beach: thanks. I figured that, just not quite sure how. I haven't bothered dissecting it yet though
2017-02-20T10:51:02Z beach: dtscode: Is that from the book, or did you type it in?
2017-02-20T10:51:14Z dtscode: yeah its from LISP in small pieces
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2017-02-20T11:02:30Z dtscode: one last question (well probably not) for now. in that special operator section, if (car e) yields quote, then am I reading it right that with this current definition of evaluation, (quote a b c d) would only quote a?
2017-02-20T11:03:40Z phoe_: AFAIR this will be an error
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2017-02-20T11:03:45Z phoe_: quote only accepts one argument.
2017-02-20T11:03:50Z phoe_: and you're feeding it four.
2017-02-20T11:03:50Z dtscode: ah
2017-02-20T11:03:53Z dtscode: that makes sense
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2017-02-20T11:30:17Z phoe_: clhs pprint-logical-block
2017-02-20T11:30:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_ppr_lo.htm
2017-02-20T11:30:28Z phoe_: :suffix---a string; evaluated. The default is the null string.
2017-02-20T11:30:58Z phoe_: "null string"?
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2017-02-20T11:31:20Z phoe_: I bet they mean "", the empty string, but the hyperlink references here are improper. null links to NIL.
2017-02-20T11:31:46Z phoe_: Wait, no.
2017-02-20T11:32:05Z dtscode: what does the (update!) method do?
2017-02-20T11:32:26Z phoe_: dtscode: I don't know, it's not a standard Common Lisp function.
2017-02-20T11:32:36Z dtscode: thanks
2017-02-20T11:32:41Z dtscode: it must be defined later then
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2017-02-20T11:34:16Z malice`: dtscode: this is scheme, not Common Lisp, is it?
2017-02-20T11:34:56Z dtscode: I think? I'm not entirely sure
2017-02-20T11:42:18Z phoe_: yes, it's Scheme.
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2017-02-20T11:46:28Z malice`: dtscode: this channel is about Common Lisp, not Scheme. The basics are pretty similar and there's a good chance you'll get your help here
2017-02-20T11:46:37Z malice`: dtscode: but if you want, you can also join dedicated scheme channel
2017-02-20T11:46:43Z dtscode: oh ok
2017-02-20T11:46:44Z dtscode: thanks
2017-02-20T11:46:51Z malice`: dtscode: in scheme there are few different approaches, so code will look different
2017-02-20T11:47:38Z malice`: dtscode: (e.g. name! means a function is destructive(modifies arguments), name? means a fuction is predicate; in Common Lisp, destructive functions aren't really named specially, and predicates sometimes end with -p)
2017-02-20T11:47:40Z malice`: no problem
2017-02-20T11:48:02Z malice`: plus, they use continuations much more
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2017-02-20T12:01:30Z shaftoe: i like ! for destructive functions
2017-02-20T12:03:10Z malice`: Yes, sometimes it is useful to know whether the function is destructive
2017-02-20T12:03:52Z ogamita: for destructive functions, I prefer full fleshed ascii explosions: _.:+*#((()))
2017-02-20T12:03:52Z flip214: I also find "?" at the end a bit more intuitive than "-p"
2017-02-20T12:03:56Z edgar-rft: (defun bomb! () 'boooom!)
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2017-02-20T12:52:49Z pareidolia: Has anyone ever considered using Acme to develop CL ?
2017-02-20T12:53:04Z pareidolia: Acme as in the Plan 9 editor
2017-02-20T12:53:41Z z0d: does it have integration with any Lisps?
2017-02-20T12:54:49Z pareidolia: That's a subtle question when it comes to plan9 stuff
2017-02-20T12:56:43Z pareidolia: If there were a 9P server that exposed stuff like Swank does right now with its RPC protocol, then "integration" would follow automatically
2017-02-20T12:57:04Z z0d: is there?
2017-02-20T12:57:13Z pareidolia: Not that I know of :P
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2017-02-20T13:00:17Z ogamita: Any CL implementation running on Plan9?
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2017-02-20T13:01:04Z ogamita: I would even dare an old fashioned question: any CL implementation on Plan 9 that doesn't exist on unix, and with features that would justify running Plan 9 instead of Linux?
2017-02-20T13:01:59Z z0d: I don't think there's practical value in running on Plan9
2017-02-20T13:02:15Z z0d: but I don't know how big the market is :->
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2017-02-20T13:04:14Z pareidolia: Acme runs on Linux actually
2017-02-20T13:04:47Z pareidolia: That's the nice thing, the "plan9 lifestyle" has trancended the plan9 os
2017-02-20T13:08:15Z z0d: does it have the same features as if it would run on Plan 9?
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2017-02-20T13:17:27Z pareidolia: z0d: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P_(protocol)
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2017-02-20T13:31:19Z otwieracz: Acme has no Lisp integration, and AFAIK tere's no CL for plan9.
2017-02-20T13:32:51Z otwieracz: And there's no plan9 market. :)
2017-02-20T13:32:56Z otwieracz: Other than 9front developers...
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2017-02-20T14:23:20Z jackdaniel: wouldn't clisp run on plan9?
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2017-02-20T14:26:53Z ogamita: jackdaniel: I don't know any CL implementation that would run directly on a random POSIX system.
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2017-02-20T14:27:13Z ogamita: they all do low level tricks and non POSIX stuff, to require a port.
2017-02-20T14:27:16Z pareidolia: Running on Plan9 is not that important
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2017-02-20T14:27:59Z ogamita: Running on random POSIX systems seems important to me.  That would mean for example, that you don't need maintainance every time a new version of Linux or macOS is issued.
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2017-02-20T16:06:37Z phoe_: WOAH
2017-02-20T16:06:43Z phoe_ just learned about *PRINT-GENSYM*
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2017-02-20T16:15:14Z pareidolia: phoe_: What is the use case?
2017-02-20T16:15:36Z ogamita: pareidolia: (macroexpand '(some-macro))
2017-02-20T16:16:06Z ogamita: But it may be confusing, since two gensym can easily have the same name.
2017-02-20T16:16:16Z pareidolia: I'm still confused
2017-02-20T16:16:17Z ogamita: *PRINT-GENSYM* = nil would print them as identical.
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2017-02-20T16:17:01Z ogamita: pareidolia: sorry, I mean there's no use case :-(  It's better to use *print-circle* = t with macroexpand.
2017-02-20T16:17:28Z Xach: I wonder if it's for more easily emitting code to read later.
2017-02-20T16:17:43Z Xach: where you don't want exactly what ~A vs ~S does.
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2017-02-20T16:17:53Z Xach: well, could always check the mailing list archives on the topic!
2017-02-20T16:19:06Z phoe_: pareidolia: macroexpanding, yes.
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2017-02-20T16:19:27Z phoe_: whenever you print macroexpanded code, #:FOO920 and #:FOO920 will read back as two *different* symbols.
2017-02-20T16:19:34Z phoe_: While you will want them to be one and the same symbol.
2017-02-20T16:20:32Z mazoe: What does everyone think about cl-annot? Can't tell if it's useful/superflulous yet...
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2017-02-20T16:22:28Z fortitude: mazoe: cl-annot's @export directives cause problems when re-loading files with package definitions
2017-02-20T16:22:56Z fortitude: since the DEFPACKAGE form doesn't include symbols exported from the package, you'll get warnings about it
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2017-02-20T16:44:30Z mazoe: fortitude: hah figures, that's a bit lame
2017-02-20T16:45:12Z mazoe: keeping package definitions up to date with exports can be a bit tedious though
2017-02-20T16:45:20Z fortitude: indeed
2017-02-20T16:45:48Z fortitude: that's what makes @export a nifty feature; it's just that the errors every time you quickload the system get a little annoying
2017-02-20T16:46:39Z fortitude: the exports in a package can also work as an extremely crude sort of API doc
2017-02-20T16:46:46Z fortitude: which is sometimes handy
2017-02-20T16:47:15Z mazoe: hmmm, tedious, but yeah, I do like having them explicitly listed in the package for that reason
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2017-02-20T16:48:18Z mazoe: actually, some Emacs functions for managing package.lisp might be in order
2017-02-20T16:48:42Z mazoe: export-defun, unexport-defun, show-package-exports...
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2017-02-20T16:50:40Z mazoe: lots of the clj-refactor style functions would be great too
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2017-02-20T19:22:34Z shka_: yo guys!
2017-02-20T19:23:17Z shka_: how can i ask for stack allocation of vector with fill pointer (but not adjustable) in sbcl?
2017-02-20T19:23:57Z Bike: i don't think sbcl has vectors with fill pointers that are not adjustable...
2017-02-20T19:24:35Z shka_: hmmmm
2017-02-20T19:24:41Z shka_: i actually never checked!
2017-02-20T19:25:07Z Bike: well, (adjustable-array-p (make-array 4 :fill-pointer 2)) => T
2017-02-20T19:26:25Z shka_: you are right ofc!
2017-02-20T19:26:48Z shka_: well, i am a fool i guess
2017-02-20T19:26:58Z Bike: for missing something like that? psh
2017-02-20T19:27:09Z Bike: sbcl only has stack allocation for simple arrays, according to the manual, so you might be out of luck there, though
2017-02-20T19:28:09Z shka_: well, yeah, i thought it may work for all vectors with constant size
2017-02-20T19:28:43Z shka_: but since all vectors with fill-pointer are adjustable it eqs to simple-arrays
2017-02-20T19:29:13Z shka_: kinda annoying, but no big deal
2017-02-20T19:29:26Z shka_: Bike: thanks for help! :-)
2017-02-20T19:29:58Z Bike: mhm
2017-02-20T19:32:03Z BusFactor1: I'm having a problem understanding basic inheritance in CLOS.  Here's a brief example showing what I'm having issues with: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339592
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2017-02-20T19:32:20Z BusFactor1: Any help appreciated.
2017-02-20T19:32:32Z Bike: you didn't provide an initarg
2017-02-20T19:32:48Z Bike: so you'd get the same from trying to make a thing
2017-02-20T19:33:08Z BusFactor1: ah yes, thanks
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2017-02-20T19:39:06Z oue: can i do something like this?
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2017-02-20T19:39:56Z oue: (let (mul (lambda (x) (* 2 x))) (mul 3))
2017-02-20T19:40:22Z shka_: won't work
2017-02-20T19:40:27Z shka_: two reasons
2017-02-20T19:40:32Z Bike: (let ((mul (lambda (x) (* 2 x)))) (funcall mul 3))
2017-02-20T19:40:39Z shka_: first of, your let is malformed
2017-02-20T19:40:57Z oue: how would it be correct?
2017-02-20T19:41:02Z shka_: secondly, your lambda resides in variable namespace
2017-02-20T19:41:12Z shka_: so you have to use funcall
2017-02-20T19:41:21Z shka_: oue: Bike has working code for you
2017-02-20T19:41:29Z shka_: but don't write it this way
2017-02-20T19:41:39Z shka_: instead, use flet
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2017-02-20T19:42:04Z shka_: that would be: (flet ((mul (x) (* 2 x))) (mul 3))
2017-02-20T19:42:30Z shka_: flet→function let or let it be a function :-)
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2017-02-20T19:51:33Z TruePika really needs to see about getting his server's primary external disk to stop sleeping all the time
2017-02-20T19:52:20Z TruePika: it takes about 5 seconds to wake up, which it needs to do in a number of different situations (say, removing /away in irssi)
2017-02-20T19:52:36Z TruePika: and it appears to be pseudo-blocking
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2017-02-20T19:53:17Z TruePika: Is there any real reason to use a symbol's plist cell in modern times?
2017-02-20T19:53:34Z TruePika: since I can't think of any good reason for it
2017-02-20T19:53:43Z nyingen: PCL provides some interesting use examples
2017-02-20T19:54:06Z TruePika: I don't recall seeing them, remember what section it was?
2017-02-20T19:54:39Z nyingen: Ch. 25 & 31 IIRC
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2017-02-20T19:55:02Z TruePika: ID3 parser and HTML generation compiler?
2017-02-20T19:55:29Z nyingen: yeah
2017-02-20T19:55:35Z TruePika: Ch25 doesn't match regex /getf/
2017-02-20T19:55:42Z TruePika: nor does 31
2017-02-20T19:55:57Z TruePika: case-insensitive
2017-02-20T19:56:06Z nyingen: try /get/
2017-02-20T19:56:19Z TruePika: though 31 does mention a property list, I see now
2017-02-20T19:56:30Z nyingen: in the section on defining special forms for the DSL, the symbol plist is used to carry information later used by the compiler macros
2017-02-20T19:56:55Z nyingen: and I meant ch 24, not 25. Sorry
2017-02-20T19:57:13Z TruePika: ah, that helps
2017-02-20T19:57:57Z TruePika: ...
2017-02-20T19:58:00Z TruePika: "The easiest way to keep track of information like this is to hang it off the symbol that names the class."
2017-02-20T19:58:04Z nyingen: I was actually wondering about this myself, as I was thinking of using symbol plists in one of my projects. The alternative seems to be some kind of global lookup table; not sure which is better
2017-02-20T19:58:43Z TruePika: or wait, shared slots require an instance of the class, right?
2017-02-20T19:58:51Z TruePika: as in :allocation :shared
2017-02-20T20:00:16Z TruePika just remembered he needs to get the current ELAINN backend rewritten with CLOS...
2017-02-20T20:01:20Z TruePika: (which is also why the whole discussion about getting Unicode working at terminal last night, since I have lots of math-related stuff sitting in a TeX doc)
2017-02-20T20:01:44Z TruePika: oh, ELAINN is my implementation of a feedforward neural network, mainly for experimental use
2017-02-20T20:02:33Z nyingen: sounds like fun
2017-02-20T20:02:38Z TruePika: (fun fact: I have some very old ELAINN-related code sitting in /mnt/dos/qbasic/elainn)
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2017-02-20T20:03:13Z TruePika: back from 2009 or 2010; my server has an interesting OS history...
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2017-02-20T20:03:36Z TruePika: OEM was Win98SE, I later downgraded to DOS 6, and now have Linux running on it
2017-02-20T20:04:10Z TruePika: ELAINN is actually the reason why I learned Lisp in the first place; Perl was being too slow
2017-02-20T20:04:49Z TruePika: and I was curious about Lisp since its use in the AI Lab
2017-02-20T20:08:19Z TruePika: I also had to mount the DOS partition last night, had some fun setting PuTTY to use cp437 then catting my autoexec.bat  http://cdusto.selfip.com/cpg.png
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2017-02-20T20:13:32Z phoe: TruePika: no
2017-02-20T20:13:38Z phoe: they don't require an instance of the class
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2017-02-20T20:14:20Z TruePika: phoe: how does one access them without a class instance?
2017-02-20T20:14:28Z phoe: (defclass foo () ((slot :initform (format t "This is evaluated at deftime") :allocation :class)))
2017-02-20T20:14:55Z phoe: the slot doesn't require an instance to be allocated and initialized
2017-02-20T20:15:04Z TruePika: I'm talking about reading
2017-02-20T20:15:08Z phoe: how to access it - I say either MOP or... make an instance.
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2017-02-20T20:16:31Z TruePika: let's say making an instance isn't an option
2017-02-20T20:16:53Z TruePika: is there a way to do MOP in ANSI CL?
2017-02-20T20:17:04Z TruePika didn't really see anything in the hyperspec
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2017-02-20T20:17:26Z phoe: TruePika: no, standard ANSI CL doesn't contain MOP
2017-02-20T20:17:27Z fourier: TruePika: use closer-mop library
2017-02-20T20:17:31Z phoe: (ql:quickload :closer-mop)
2017-02-20T20:17:32Z phoe: oh right
2017-02-20T20:18:01Z TruePika: so yeah, that would give merit to tacking stuff onto the plist from the class name symbol
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2017-02-20T20:18:34Z phoe: minion: memo for beach: I have a slot with class allocation. How can I access it without making an instance of that class?
2017-02-20T20:18:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-20T20:19:22Z TruePika: minion: memo for beach: Forward me the answer for phoe's query as well
2017-02-20T20:19:22Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-20T20:19:45Z raydeejay: quick and simple: your json lib of choice? :)
2017-02-20T20:19:53Z TruePika: raydeejay: cl-json
2017-02-20T20:20:09Z TruePika: IIRC
2017-02-20T20:20:40Z TruePika: I've actually moved from trying to have Powershell write Lisp forms to just having Powershell dump data to JSON and reading it into Lisp
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2017-02-20T20:20:57Z raydeejay: so you use it then?
2017-02-20T20:21:13Z TruePika: yeah
2017-02-20T20:21:32Z TruePika: though it helps to have a REPL open to map the JSON names to the keywords used
2017-02-20T20:22:39Z TruePika: but you can read a JSON into a tree structure of alist/list with a single function call
2017-02-20T20:22:53Z TruePika: and I presume the other way as well (though I've only been reading JSON)
2017-02-20T20:22:54Z raydeejay: I'm trying it now :)
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2017-02-20T20:23:41Z TruePika:   (let ((json (json:decode-json-from-source json-filename))
2017-02-20T20:24:12Z fourier: raydeejay: yason
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2017-02-20T20:33:27Z pareidolia: I would like a formal binding api for JSON... everything seems so adhoc
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2017-02-20T20:34:23Z shka_: binding api?
2017-02-20T20:34:33Z shka_: so now json is external language? :D
2017-02-20T20:34:46Z TruePika: what?
2017-02-20T20:35:04Z pareidolia: Think JAXB
2017-02-20T20:35:21Z pareidolia: Something declarative
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2017-02-20T20:37:40Z shka_: pareidolia: cl-json can map json to clos objects and clos objects to json
2017-02-20T20:37:49Z shka_: it can't perform schema validation though
2017-02-20T20:37:55Z shka_: at least not automatic
2017-02-20T20:38:25Z shka_: but it is not that difficult to add that
2017-02-20T20:42:41Z shka_: besides, i wouldn't call it ad hoc at all
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2017-02-20T21:38:37Z jurov: (proclaim (quite-usable 'slimv))
2017-02-20T21:39:00Z jurov: i spent day using it today, and found only two minor annoyances
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2017-02-20T21:42:45Z jurov: 1. https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv/pull/55 and 2. interrupt-lisp-process does not work
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2017-02-20T21:43:18Z jurov: looking forward to freedom from bovine editors :)
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2017-02-20T22:10:46Z fourier: jurov: awesome, we need more choice in editors for CL. Would be awesome to have Atom and Sublime plugins fully functioning though, it will attract new people.
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2017-02-20T22:20:21Z jpthing: EMACS seems to work fine..
2017-02-20T22:21:02Z jpthing: But sure vim is good too. ATOM's support as you metioned sucks
2017-02-20T22:21:33Z fourier: jpthing: of course it works fine. the question is not all who wants to try CL would like to learn it, its learning curve is too stip
2017-02-20T22:22:26Z jpthing: CL learning curve is steep too.
2017-02-20T22:22:42Z fourier: jpthing: that is why better to separate them in time :)
2017-02-20T22:22:55Z jpthing: No C lib to support you. Everything works different.
2017-02-20T22:28:35Z jpthing: I have said before that EMACS, SLIME and CL are a match made in heaven. They complement each-other. And no other system including say LispWorks works as well. It is not very modern. But it IS well built.
2017-02-20T22:30:11Z jpthing: There is no Lisp for dummies, because it was never designed for them.
2017-02-20T22:31:52Z fe[nl]ix: there are several books meant for first year students
2017-02-20T22:32:06Z fe[nl]ix: that's enough "for dummies"
2017-02-20T22:32:35Z jpthing: Inexperienced is not the same as dumb.
2017-02-20T22:32:59Z fe[nl]ix: pretty close
2017-02-20T22:35:01Z aeth: jpthing: Lisp, being a garbage collected language where you can create almost any abstraction, is definitely usable by "dummies"
2017-02-20T22:35:18Z aeth: Just use other people's objects, higher order functions, and macros
2017-02-20T22:36:10Z aeth: The hardest part if you have an API autocomplete like SLIME and a fast documentation lookup (there are several) is knowing when to quote something.
2017-02-20T22:36:20Z aeth: Assuming you're just using other people's abstractions.
2017-02-20T22:36:33Z jpthing: I disagree. The best book for leaning Lisp is probably Gerald Jay Sussman work Structure_and_Interpretation_of_Computer_Programs
2017-02-20T22:37:03Z aeth: jpthing: structure-and-interpretation-of-computer-programs
2017-02-20T22:37:08Z aeth: we use hyphens and don't capitalize
2017-02-20T22:37:25Z jpthing: Ok A bit of cut and paste, but I didn't want to be accused of misinformation
2017-02-20T22:38:02Z jpthing: I am 50 years old amd my memory can get a bit flaky at imes
2017-02-20T22:38:05Z aeth: I was joking because that looked like a variable name in some other language. (I guess you copied and pasted the URL rather than the text title?)
2017-02-20T22:38:15Z jpthing: yes
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2017-02-20T22:40:29Z jpthing: Anyhow I have actually read it and followed the course (online) and I found it worth the while.
2017-02-20T22:40:45Z aeth: I love the video series.
2017-02-20T22:41:04Z aeth: I don't think the video could possibly be at any lower resolution though
2017-02-20T22:41:29Z aeth: In case anyone is wondering: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLE18841CABEA24090
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2017-02-20T22:46:01Z jpthing: Yes, I loved those lectures.
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2017-02-20T22:51:57Z jpthing: It seems they switched to Java a few years ago.
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2017-02-20T22:52:42Z jpthing: Never liked that language much.
2017-02-20T22:53:38Z jpthing: Although there is a bit of Guy Steele in both CL and Java.
2017-02-20T22:54:23Z Xach: the role guy steele played in cl is quite different from his role in java.
2017-02-20T22:54:31Z jpthing: Also Fortress was a flop.
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2017-02-20T22:58:28Z jpthing: Xach, Well Jave was more of a from the ground up based on C++ development. CL was a committee trying to decide witch of the current Lisp features of a dozen implementations to include. And adding CLOS on the side.
2017-02-20T23:01:02Z aeth: jpthing: iirc they switched to Python
2017-02-20T23:02:13Z aeth: Guy Steele was involved with Java to bring C++ programmers half way to Lisp and with Common Lisp to bring Lisp programmers half way to Scheme.
2017-02-20T23:03:02Z jpthing: Well Guy was involved with Scheme too.
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2017-02-20T23:03:31Z Xach: involved
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2017-02-20T23:04:40Z antoszka: jpthing: they switched to Python, not Java
2017-02-20T23:04:47Z antoszka: oh, aeth has already said that
2017-02-20T23:04:59Z antoszka: Python, of all things. :(
2017-02-20T23:05:38Z jpthing: Well It is easy to learn, And simple to make an editor for.
2017-02-20T23:05:53Z jpthing: for dummies ;)
2017-02-20T23:05:54Z aeth: *and* explicitly anti-functional
2017-02-20T23:06:01Z antoszka: I'd dispute that. But that should go to #lispcafe.
2017-02-20T23:06:09Z antoszka: aeth: Yeah.
2017-02-20T23:06:42Z aeth: Guido van Rossum hates FP and so Python has no TCO, moved some core functional functions out of the core of the language into the standard library, and is keeping a terrible lambda syntax.
2017-02-20T23:06:50Z aeth: iirc
2017-02-20T23:07:12Z aeth: It's very much the anti-Scheme.
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2017-02-20T23:08:35Z jpthing: Let's bring that discussion to #lispcafe so these boys can focus on Lisp specific questions
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2017-02-20T23:58:10Z phoe: clhs MAKE-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER
2017-02-20T23:58:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_dis.htm
2017-02-20T23:58:16Z phoe: Side Effects: None.
2017-02-20T23:58:23Z phoe: The readtable is altered.
2017-02-20T23:58:28Z phoe: the fuck
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2017-02-21T00:00:19Z Bike: cute.
2017-02-21T00:01:05Z phoe: Bike: I bet $10 that I can remove that "None" thing from CLUS and no one will blink an eye
2017-02-21T00:01:16Z Bike: uh... obviously
2017-02-21T00:01:21Z Bike: who would take you up on that
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2017-02-21T00:06:17Z phoe: clhs read
2017-02-21T00:06:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_rd.htm
2017-02-21T00:06:31Z phoe: the example ending with #\x, #\Space, NIL
2017-02-21T00:06:42Z phoe: ...why does FORMAT T return anything non-NIL?
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2017-02-21T00:07:48Z phoe: Why does my implementation return different results?
2017-02-21T00:07:56Z phoe: Why is the variable N unused in that defun?
2017-02-21T00:09:28Z phoe: This example is screwed up.
2017-02-21T00:09:35Z Bike: well N is unused because the third argument to a dispatch macro reader is the number, like 3 in #3A, and it was irrelevant for the example
2017-02-21T00:09:47Z phoe: yes, sure thing, that's what declare ignore is for
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2017-02-21T00:10:00Z pillton: clhs 1.4.4.9
2017-02-21T00:10:00Z Bike: elided for readability
2017-02-21T00:10:00Z specbot: The ``Examples'' Section of a Dictionary Entry: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_ddi.htm
2017-02-21T00:10:02Z phoe: it's present in the examples for reader macros
2017-02-21T00:10:10Z phoe: pillton: I know
2017-02-21T00:10:13Z pillton: "The examples are not considered part of the standard." :)
2017-02-21T00:10:16Z phoe: they're not part of the standard.
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2017-02-21T00:10:27Z Bike: and the output is probably supposed to represent what prints rather than return values
2017-02-21T00:10:31Z phoe: I'm trying to improve them as I run.
2017-02-21T00:11:29Z pillton: phoe: Good luck with the lognand and friends then!
2017-02-21T00:12:11Z Bike: looks ok to me?
2017-02-21T00:12:16Z Bike: i even get the exact same output
2017-02-21T00:12:20Z phoe: Bike: I don't
2017-02-21T00:12:30Z Bike: really? on logand?
2017-02-21T00:12:59Z phoe: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339602
2017-02-21T00:13:01Z phoe: ...uh
2017-02-21T00:13:03Z phoe: not on logand
2017-02-21T00:13:11Z phoe: pillton: oh, I've made it through logand
2017-02-21T00:13:13Z Bike: try and keep up i'm racing ahead!!
2017-02-21T00:13:15Z phoe: they're already on clus
2017-02-21T00:13:22Z phoe: clhs logand
2017-02-21T00:13:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
2017-02-21T00:14:09Z Bike: racing behind, then
2017-02-21T00:14:30Z phoe: anyway, the READ example is screwed up IMO
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2017-02-21T00:59:33Z phoe: haha
2017-02-21T00:59:34Z phoe: clhs get-dispatch-macro-character
2017-02-21T00:59:34Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set__1.htm
2017-02-21T00:59:38Z phoe: this has two See Also sections
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2017-02-21T01:06:38Z phoe: TIL about:
2017-02-21T01:06:42Z phoe: clhs with-standard-io-syntax
2017-02-21T01:06:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm
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2017-02-21T01:29:45Z phoe: ...I just realized that GET-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER and SET-DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER
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2017-02-21T01:29:57Z phoe: should have been DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER and (SETF DISPATCH-MACRO-CHARACTER)
2017-02-21T01:30:11Z phoe: same with GET-MACRO-CHARACTER and SET-MACRO-CHARACTER
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2017-02-21T01:38:30Z phoe: aah
2017-02-21T01:38:36Z phoe pushes Reader to CLUS
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2017-02-21T01:55:10Z phoe: night
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2017-02-21T02:55:35Z Bike: i have a graph structure made of clos objects. i have a system to draw it in graphviz, with a bunch of generic functions. i sometimes have a hash table from graph nodes to information. i sometimes would like the graphviz-drawer to draw information from the hash table. any suggestions on how to organize this?
2017-02-21T02:57:27Z Zhivago: Provide it as context via a special variable?
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2017-02-21T02:59:39Z Bike: i want the original system to work about the same regardless of whether the hash information exists, and actually there's different kinds of hash information that would have to be drawn differently. so i'm not sure how to do it other than some kind of hook, i guess
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2017-02-21T03:16:46Z rk[ghost]: is there a standard for printing? to stdout or file? my assumption would be the 'format' function..
2017-02-21T03:17:11Z Bike: format, print, write
2017-02-21T03:17:39Z Bike: they work for standard output and files, you just change the stream
2017-02-21T03:17:44Z rk[ghost]: aye right
2017-02-21T03:17:51Z rk[ghost]: just wondering if there is one i should use over the other
2017-02-21T03:18:00Z Bike: depends on what you're doing
2017-02-21T03:18:08Z rk[ghost]: trying to get back in to programming. deciding to lisp. want to try not to write garbage noob code :P
2017-02-21T03:18:45Z Bike: format does "formatted output" so it's nice for compact expressions of what would be complicated sequences of calls
2017-02-21T03:19:02Z Bike: the print family prints one object, in a variety of ways, like for whether it's for human consumption or computer
2017-02-21T03:19:13Z Bike: write is the basic version where you can specify all those
2017-02-21T03:19:29Z rk[ghost]: aye aye, thanks for some clarification / input on the matter
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2017-02-21T03:20:52Z rk[ghost]: next question, so i spun up a lame loop to test something.. and from my perspective it is acting strange. i wrote something like: ... er lemme paste.lisp.org
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2017-02-21T03:36:55Z Zhivago: Note that that isn't a question.
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2017-02-21T03:42:39Z Bike: just taking a long time to paste, no doubt
2017-02-21T03:43:22Z rk[ghost]: very much so
2017-02-21T03:43:26Z rk[ghost]: trying to solve it myself
2017-02-21T03:43:28Z rk[ghost]: anyhoot
2017-02-21T03:43:48Z rk[ghost]: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339619
2017-02-21T03:44:27Z rk[ghost]: why is it that, it keeps accepting input, but never even prints "who are you?" which, should preceed the readline from my understanding..
2017-02-21T03:45:40Z rk[ghost]: also.. as a side question.. any good projects out there that would be a good reference to read to relearn programming in lisp and which uses common practice standards? (i find that reading code always seems better than reading manuals or even tutorials..)
2017-02-21T03:46:18Z Bike: invalid paste, but that sounds like a buffering issue
2017-02-21T03:46:49Z Bike: try throwing in some finish-output calls
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2017-02-21T03:52:56Z rk[ghost]: haha, the last number was suppose to be a 0.. :P
2017-02-21T03:53:09Z rk[ghost]: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339610
2017-02-21T03:54:24Z rk[ghost]: i was throwing up a loop in some code i was working on.. just to see how my program would function in action.. and i wasn't getting the ordering of input/output i was expecting. is there a standard way to prompt the user with a question for input?
2017-02-21T03:54:27Z Bike: yeah, buffering probs.
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2017-02-21T03:58:10Z rk[ghost]: ok. so then.. where does it make sense to put the (finish-output) .. after every (format) call?
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2017-02-21T03:59:05Z Bike: whenever you want whatever is output to actually be output before you continue, i guess
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2017-02-21T04:18:24Z pillton: Bike: What about passing a function which is used to retrieve vertex attributes? e.g. (generate-graph graph :vertex-attributes #'no-hash-table-vertex-attributes) or (generate-graph :vertex-attributes #'with-hash-table-vertex-attributes).
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2017-02-21T04:20:42Z Bike: there probably have to be functions to draw the attributes too. but i'm trying with just some dynamic variable hooks and it's workin alright
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2017-02-21T04:21:39Z pillton: Aren't you generating dot files?
2017-02-21T04:22:29Z Bike: yeah?
2017-02-21T04:23:04Z pillton: I am just confirming what "draw" means.
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2017-02-21T04:24:54Z pillton: The n-h-t-v-a and the w-h-t-v-a would just delegate to your "drawing" functions.
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2017-02-21T05:15:03Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-21T05:16:43Z beach: phoe, TruePika: you need an instance to get to the slot with allocation CLASS, but you can use the class prototype to avoid creating a new instance.
2017-02-21T05:17:06Z beach: mop class-prototype
2017-02-21T05:17:07Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-prototype.html
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2017-02-21T05:33:41Z rk[ghost]: aye.. my assumption would be that whenever i output, i always want it to output at that moment, so i suppose i'll have to run that command hand in hand with format
2017-02-21T05:33:43Z monadicDuck: Can anyone suggest any resources for learning more about writing lisp macros or the inner workings lisp compiler? I'm having an issue finding more advanced books as most I have read are more of an introduction to the language.
2017-02-21T05:33:51Z rk[ghost]: i'll just write a wrapper function i suppose
2017-02-21T05:34:23Z beach: monadicDuck: For Lisp macros, there is On Lisp by Paul Graham.
2017-02-21T05:34:32Z monadicDuck: Thank you
2017-02-21T05:34:34Z beach: monadicDuck: It is completely dedicated to that.
2017-02-21T05:34:50Z beach: monadicDuck: For the compiler stuff, try Lisp in Small Pieces.
2017-02-21T05:35:27Z monadicDuck: Thank you so much. That is really helpful I will be looking for both of them today!
2017-02-21T05:35:44Z beach: monadicDuck: There is also PAIP by Peter Norvig.  It is neither about macros nor about compilers, but it is about advanced programming techniques.
2017-02-21T05:36:00Z beach: monadicDuck: Good luck.
2017-02-21T05:36:13Z beach: monadicDuck: On Lisp is (or used to be) available online.
2017-02-21T05:36:25Z pillton: monadicDuck: What are you trying to do with macros?
2017-02-21T05:37:44Z monadicDuck: I am just interested in learning more. I am very new to lisp and tend to get lost in the macro section when reading advanced source code
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2017-02-21T05:39:21Z pillton: Macros (or macro functions) tend to be abused more than they should be used.
2017-02-21T05:40:57Z pillton: I suggest avoiding them until you become more familiar with common lisp.
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2017-02-21T05:45:12Z beach: monadicDuck: For compiler stuff, there is also an older book called "Anatomy of LISP" by John Allen.
2017-02-21T05:45:25Z |3b|: yeah, important first lesson about macros is "don't use them if you can avoid it" :)
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2017-02-21T05:45:58Z beach: monadicDuck: But it gets very involved in the details of semantics at the beginning, so it has to be read selectively if you don't like too much theory.
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2017-02-21T05:46:04Z |3b|: and then "try to implement them as a wrapper around a function call when possible" when you can't
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2017-02-21T05:48:38Z beach: monadicDuck: Oh, and don't let my friends discourage you from learning more. :)
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2017-02-21T05:49:04Z pillton: It is not my intent to discourage. By all means read beach's references.
2017-02-21T05:49:52Z monadicDuck: :) Thanks I found On Lisp and am reading through it now. I will check out "Anatomy of LISP" next as I am very interested in theory
2017-02-21T05:50:05Z monadicDuck: Thanks again to everyone for their help
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2017-02-21T05:50:41Z beach: monadicDuck: Neither "Anatomy of LISP" nor "Lisp in Small Pieces" is about Common Lisp.
2017-02-21T05:50:54Z beach: When the first one was written, Common Lisp did not yet exist.
2017-02-21T05:50:59Z beach: And the second one is more about Scheme.
2017-02-21T05:51:51Z |3b|: yeah, learning macros is good, since there are lots of times when there aren't good alternatives :)
2017-02-21T05:51:55Z rk[ghost]: is there way to get the first ``character`` of a symbol ?
2017-02-21T05:51:57Z monadicDuck: thats fine I have gone through the old 6.001 from MIT so I am familiar with scheme as well
2017-02-21T05:52:18Z |3b|: (char (symbol-name symbol) 0)?
2017-02-21T05:52:35Z rk[ghost]: or is a symbol just atomic blob?
2017-02-21T05:52:52Z rk[ghost]: err.. lemme try that.. thanks |3b|
2017-02-21T05:53:17Z |3b|: it has various defined properties, so not sure if 'atomic blob' applies
2017-02-21T05:53:57Z |3b|: name is one of them, also has value and function binding, property list, home package, etc
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2017-02-21T05:54:40Z rk[ghost]: ah.. okay.. this symbol-name function was the key there
2017-02-21T05:54:57Z rk[ghost]: now.. this may seem strange, but.. can i convert the character back in to a symbol?
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2017-02-21T05:55:14Z |3b|: clhs make-symbol
2017-02-21T05:55:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_sym.htm
2017-02-21T05:55:19Z |3b|: clhs intern
2017-02-21T05:55:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2017-02-21T05:55:23Z rk[ghost]: thank you!
2017-02-21T05:55:39Z rk[ghost]: i really ought to send the lispworks folks some $ for the hyperspec..
2017-02-21T05:55:50Z |3b|: possibly also involving STRING
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2017-02-21T05:58:08Z rk[ghost]: i just installed 'openurl' for irssi yesterday? and it is really handy for hyperspec references..
2017-02-21T05:59:22Z rk[ghost]: i have always wanted to treat symbols like strings.. happy to know there is some mangleing i can do.. thanks again.
2017-02-21T06:01:18Z beach: rk[ghost]: I suggest you instead send some money to phoe so that he can work on the Common Lisp UltraSpec.
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2017-02-21T06:14:00Z rk[ghost]: :)
2017-02-21T06:16:37Z beach: rk[ghost]: I am perfectly serious.  LispWorks just took a document in the public domain, added HTML formatting and made the result proprietary.  What phoe is doing is take that same document, and more modern HTML formatting, correcting the errors in it, improving the examples, and making the result available to everyone.
2017-02-21T06:17:07Z beach: s/and more/add more/
2017-02-21T06:18:26Z beach: rk[ghost]: Besides, LispWorks doesn't need the money.  They have an income from selling Common Lisp systems.  On the other hand, phoe must have money to buy food and such, so he could use it.
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2017-02-21T06:20:09Z rk[ghost]: fair enough, thanks for the pointer
2017-02-21T06:20:52Z rk[ghost]: i hope it isn't too modern html formatting :P
2017-02-21T06:20:53Z rk[ghost]: new age web makes me want to live offline
2017-02-21T06:20:54Z beach: Sure.  I think what phoe is doing is absolutely fantastic, and I think he has the stamina to pull it off.
2017-02-21T06:21:05Z rk[ghost]: sounds really great :D
2017-02-21T06:21:21Z rk[ghost]: i didn't know the history behind lispworks, i just know that the hyperspec has been a very handy reference for me
2017-02-21T06:22:25Z rk[ghost]: what i /really/ ought to do is send phoe some of these awesome black bean patties i just made and threw in the freezer
2017-02-21T06:22:31Z beach: rk[ghost]: You tell me whether it is too modern: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:functions:adjust-array
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2017-02-21T06:25:05Z rk[ghost]: i can handle that:)
2017-02-21T06:25:39Z beach: rk[ghost]: A similar situation happened with the public chapters of the AMOP.  Someone took them, added HTML markup, and then completely disrespected the desire of the original authors to keep the result public.  That's why I did a similar thing to what phoe is doing, but on a much smaller scale: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/table-of-contents.html
2017-02-21T06:25:47Z rk[ghost]: my preference is to load websites in a terminal-based web browser.. but i loaded it firefox just to have a better look at it
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2017-02-21T06:26:25Z beach: This link: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/ explains what I just said.
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2017-02-21T06:27:00Z easye: rk[ghost]: I think there is no reason why the content of CLUS could have a fanstastic non-Javascript/non-visual presentation.
2017-02-21T06:27:27Z easye: The first step is to logically encapsulate all the information, then it should be a  matter of stylesheets.
2017-02-21T06:27:41Z easye: "could not have"
2017-02-21T06:28:14Z easye: (assuming the terminal browser understands a bit about stylesheets)
2017-02-21T06:28:22Z rk[ghost]: aye
2017-02-21T06:28:37Z rk[ghost]: i currently switched to w3m, and it seems to be able to handle more jazz than lynx
2017-02-21T06:28:38Z |3b|: or just write your own formatter/frontend for the content :)
2017-02-21T06:29:17Z rk[ghost]: beach, great! thanks for your efforts !
2017-02-21T06:29:55Z beach: rk[ghost]: Sure.  I am not very good with web stuff, so I hope phoe will take what I did and make it more "modern" looking.
2017-02-21T06:30:17Z beach: ... or that he tells me what to do to make that happen.
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2017-02-21T06:32:10Z rk[ghost] likes the simple pages :P
2017-02-21T06:32:42Z rk[ghost]: going to download the pages before they change.. haha!
2017-02-21T06:33:11Z rk[ghost]: always nice having local copies of important reference sites anyhow..
2017-02-21T06:33:27Z beach: rk[ghost]: I will leave them where they are and let phoe host any modified version.
2017-02-21T06:33:28Z rk[ghost]: not sure which system it is.. but i have all of the hyperspec pages on local disk
2017-02-21T06:33:34Z rk[ghost]: aye aye
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2017-02-21T06:35:16Z rk[ghost]: so anyone have links to any good projects that follow good common lisp standard coding conventions with a variety of language aspects, so i can read some code to reawaken my brain to CL programming?
2017-02-21T06:35:16Z beach: My problem seems to be that I can't tell what looks "old" or "modern" when it comes to web pages, so I just try to emulate a style that I have seen.  In this case, I tried to emulate the style of the HyperSpec, which apparently looks "old" to most modern surfers.
2017-02-21T06:35:41Z rk[ghost]: :)
2017-02-21T06:36:01Z beach: rk[ghost]: I have plenty of projects with well thought-out coding style.
2017-02-21T06:36:13Z beach: rk[ghost]: Any particular application domain you are looking for?
2017-02-21T06:36:17Z Zhivago: Ideally the page would be described as a data structure translatable to json.
2017-02-21T06:36:35Z rk[ghost]: as long as one can directly reference a page, with a url.. and doesn't need to navigate some uberdynamic js site to get to something, i think i can be happy
2017-02-21T06:36:37Z Zhivago: Then the rendering can become someone else's problem.
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2017-02-21T06:38:19Z rk[ghost]: hmm, i am not sure if i /do/ have a particular domain in mind. not anything web. i guess i would be interested in seeing low-level things as i have never really looked much at any of that in lisp. and then, well honestly- i don't think it really matters much. anything would be dandy :)
2017-02-21T06:38:22Z beach: rk[ghost]: If you are into data structures, here is a simple library: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Clump
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2017-02-21T06:39:15Z beach: rk[ghost]: It comes with documentation, ASDF system definitions, several packages, extensive use of classes and generic functions, etc.
2017-02-21T06:39:37Z beach: rk[ghost]: ... and extensive tests as well.
2017-02-21T06:42:40Z beach: rk[ghost]: It defines specific conditions for the errors, rather than using simple errors so that they can be caught and handled by client code.  It has separate condition reporters that can be internationalized.
2017-02-21T06:42:41Z beach: And it has docstrings that are separate from the code, so that docstrings can be internationalized as well, and so that the code is not cluttered with unrelated information.
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2017-02-21T06:47:51Z rk[ghost]: excellent. i do enjoy OOP and CLOS seems like a well thought system
2017-02-21T06:48:33Z rk[ghost]: i have had interested in learning LFE (lisp flavoured erlang) because i just imagine OTP on top of all the other niceities of CL would be pretty.. great!
2017-02-21T06:49:29Z rk[ghost]: thanks for the link:D
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2017-02-21T06:50:20Z rk[ghost]: while i am at it, any good reference for CL projects that do stuff at the OS level (posix/linux) or the userland level above that?
2017-02-21T06:51:51Z rk[ghost]: for instance, file handling, directory creation, port listening, pipes, ect
2017-02-21T06:54:12Z jackdaniel: for posix interface there are osicat and iolib
2017-02-21T06:55:02Z jackdaniel: you can work with files and create directories within raw Common Lisp
2017-02-21T06:55:49Z loke: rk[ghost]: for TCP and pipes you need to use the libraries JD mentioned. The others are available natively in CL.
2017-02-21T06:56:21Z jackdaniel: if you are interested in networking, there is usocket too
2017-02-21T06:56:33Z jackdaniel: these three libraries overlap a bit
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2017-02-21T07:04:05Z rk[ghost] gives thanks
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2017-02-21T07:05:58Z rk[ghost]: any good libraries for doing ncurses jazz?
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2017-02-21T07:30:12Z Bike: cl-charms i think
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2017-02-21T07:36:25Z rk[ghost]: cool!
2017-02-21T07:36:32Z rk[ghost]: thanks Bike
2017-02-21T07:36:37Z rk[ghost]: thanks again everyone else:)
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2017-02-21T08:37:58Z phoe_: beach: Hey
2017-02-21T08:38:11Z phoe_: Can you again quote the excerpt from MOP granting me license to edit it?
2017-02-21T08:39:51Z rk[ghost]: is there an equivalent function in CL for the UNIX 'seq' command?
2017-02-21T08:40:04Z flip214: phoe_: http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/lisp-2017-02.txt
2017-02-21T08:40:26Z Bike: rk[ghost]: (loop for i from 1 upto n collect i)
2017-02-21T08:40:32Z loke: rk[ghost]: (loop for i from 0 to 100 collect i)
2017-02-21T08:40:37Z rk[ghost]: right-o thanks
2017-02-21T08:40:37Z phoe_: flip214: <3
2017-02-21T08:40:40Z Bike: alexandria has a function 'iota' that does the same thing
2017-02-21T08:40:57Z beach: phoe_: So you got it?
2017-02-21T08:41:06Z loke: SERIES has an interesting variation of that too
2017-02-21T08:41:19Z rk[ghost]: just wondering if there was a default library function that did jazz as such.. a loop will do.. i was about to do it recursively..
2017-02-21T08:41:39Z phoe_: Searching for it now
2017-02-21T08:42:23Z beach: phoe_: Did you see my answer about the class prototype?
2017-02-21T08:42:32Z beach: mop class-prototype
2017-02-21T08:42:32Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-prototype.html
2017-02-21T08:42:40Z Bike: "To this end, for Part II only (chapters 5 and 6), we grant permission to prepare revisions or other derivative works including any amount of the original text.  We ask only that you properly acknowledge the source of the original text and explicitly allow subsequent revisions and derivative works under the same terms."
2017-02-21T08:42:47Z phoe_: Got it.
2017-02-21T08:42:48Z phoe_: Thanks.
2017-02-21T08:42:52Z phoe_: beach: no.
2017-02-21T08:43:16Z loke: (series:scan-range :upto 10)
2017-02-21T08:43:17Z beach: phoe_: You need an instance, but you can use the class prototype, so you don't need to make a new instance.
2017-02-21T08:43:26Z phoe_: Oh.
2017-02-21T08:43:35Z phoe_: TruePika: ^
2017-02-21T08:43:41Z phoe_: beach: Thanks.
2017-02-21T08:43:46Z beach: Sure.
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2017-02-21T08:46:31Z scymtym: Bike: have you tried cl-dot for your graphvizing?
2017-02-21T08:46:51Z Bike: no
2017-02-21T08:48:06Z rk[ghost]: thanksz.
2017-02-21T08:48:14Z beach: Bike: If there is a good external library that will do what we want, I am in favor of removing our code.
2017-02-21T08:48:56Z beach: Not that I understand how it would save us a lot of code, though.
2017-02-21T08:49:06Z scymtym: i think the interface is well thought out
2017-02-21T08:49:24Z beach: We still need to express exactly how each type of element is to be rendered.
2017-02-21T08:49:26Z Bike: i can't build the manual :(
2017-02-21T08:49:32Z beach: Oh!
2017-02-21T08:49:34Z beach: :(
2017-02-21T08:50:03Z Bike: i guess it just said "you need texinfo" in a weird way though
2017-02-21T08:50:27Z beach: That's easy to fix.
2017-02-21T08:50:37Z Bike: except i have texinfo already. ok
2017-02-21T08:51:17Z Bike: oh but it's online. no problem then
2017-02-21T08:51:24Z Bike: http://foldr.org/%7Emichaelw/projects/cl-dot/manual.pdf
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2017-02-21T08:53:23Z Bike: seems pretty simple. i'll worry about that once i actually get this working
2017-02-21T08:53:57Z scymtym: a have a few cl-dot patches queued. one is scraping all attribute descriptions from the graphviz page, the other is support for "clusters" (hierarchical graphs). if those would be useful, i can make submitting them a priority
2017-02-21T08:53:59Z beach: It looks like it won't render existing graphs the way we do, but you have to create an explicit graph.
2017-02-21T08:54:26Z Bike: clustering would definitely be nice
2017-02-21T08:54:40Z scymtym: you basically declare how to construct the graph, which cl-dot will then do by calling your methods
2017-02-21T08:54:51Z Bike: though it might be complicated to do properly for the application. oh well
2017-02-21T08:55:17Z beach: scymtym: The thing is, we already have a graph.
2017-02-21T08:55:36Z beach: scymtym: Like the AST and the HIR of SICL.
2017-02-21T08:56:54Z beach: Bike: I would definitely not consider mixing in CL-DOT classes into SICL classes for the sole purpose of rendering.
2017-02-21T08:57:07Z scymtym: beach: that is not how it works
2017-02-21T08:57:26Z scymtym: let me find an example
2017-02-21T08:58:01Z Bike: yeah, from the manual it looks like you just define methods
2017-02-21T08:58:46Z Bike: the example it has is drawing cons trees, and it gives all the lines specific attributes and such, it's probably adaptable enough
2017-02-21T08:59:08Z beach: That would be good.
2017-02-21T08:59:27Z scymtym: here is my SBCL IR1 graph drawer: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339620
2017-02-21T08:59:53Z scymtym: i think it is idiomatic and includes clusters
2017-02-21T09:00:07Z scymtym: it does not demonstrates HTML labels and ports, though
2017-02-21T09:00:08Z beach: scymtym: But you define your own IR class.
2017-02-21T09:00:35Z beach: IR-GRAPH class, I mean.
2017-02-21T09:00:39Z Bike: i think the 'graph' is just something you pass to the gfs
2017-02-21T09:00:43Z Bike: sort of like my 'specializations'
2017-02-21T09:00:52Z scymtym: beach: the graph only a description of the graph to be drawn
2017-02-21T09:00:56Z scymtym: *is
2017-02-21T09:02:03Z beach: scymtym: So if we already have a graph, we don't need to create any new objects?  I guess I don't see it.
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2017-02-21T09:03:20Z Bike: you can see it has like (defmethod graph-object-node ((graph ir1-graph) (object sb-c:component)) ...)
2017-02-21T09:03:26Z scymtym: beach: correct. the ir1-graph instance only stores parameters for the graph drawing process
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2017-02-21T09:04:06Z mazoe: mornin
2017-02-21T09:04:31Z beach: Hello mazoe.
2017-02-21T09:04:48Z beach: scymtym: OK, good.  I guess I'll let Bike look into it.
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2017-02-21T09:06:03Z scymtym: beach: sure. i mean, if cl-dot doesn't work for your use case, that's fine of course. i just thought, i would mention it, because it has worked really for me
2017-02-21T09:07:23Z beach: Absolutely.  If it does what we want, I am totally in favor of scrapping our code, so it won't have to be maintained.
2017-02-21T09:07:48Z beach: Especially since our code is not part of the core functionality of Cleavir.  It is just a debugging tool.
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2017-02-21T09:09:52Z scymtym: that's my main use case as well. but you can also do somewhat sophisticated things like the graph in http://docs.cor-lab.de//rst-manual/trunk/html/generated/stable/package-rst-generic.html
2017-02-21T09:10:24Z beach: Nice.
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2017-02-21T09:14:58Z beach: Now, who would like to work on a Common Lisp native implementation of the graph layout algorithms used by Graphviz, so that we can use (say) McCLIM to display those graphs? :)
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2017-02-21T09:20:49Z ogamita: This is a job! I'll be free from the second half of May ;-)
2017-02-21T09:22:10Z beach: ogamita: Is your contract coming to an end?
2017-02-21T09:22:51Z beach: ogamita: Or is this just the stipulated 8 weeks of French paid vacation?
2017-02-21T09:23:00Z ogamita: Theorically.  It's been extended so many times already…
2017-02-21T09:23:43Z beach: So this *is* the end?
2017-02-21T09:23:48Z ogamita: Normally, yes.
2017-02-21T09:24:04Z beach: Not sure whether this is good or bad.
2017-02-21T09:24:28Z ogamita: I've got other things to do, and this job lacks some serious lisp…
2017-02-21T09:24:41Z beach: OK, so you are fine for now?
2017-02-21T09:24:48Z ogamita: I'm currently diving into python, it's worse than what I thought, worse than the whitespaces…
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2017-02-21T09:24:59Z beach: So I hear.
2017-02-21T09:25:34Z ogamita: Ruby is definitely much better than Python.
2017-02-21T09:26:04Z beach: Maybe Ravenpack in Marbella is still hiring.  I wouldn't mind living there.
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2017-02-21T09:26:45Z beach: The climate certainly beats that of Paris.
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2017-02-21T09:28:08Z mazoe: argh *python*
2017-02-21T09:29:43Z beach tries not to have an opinion about languages he has only rudimentary knowledge about.
2017-02-21T09:29:58Z jdz: ogamita: those are my exact observations of Python as well.
2017-02-21T09:30:10Z jdz: s/of/about
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2017-02-21T09:57:32Z afidegnum: good morning all,
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2017-02-21T10:04:34Z beach: Hello afidegnum.
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2017-02-21T10:05:25Z afidegnum: i wanted to know  the differences in dialects, concepts and practicality between common-lisp and scheme?
2017-02-21T10:05:48Z beach: afidegnum: That is generally off topic here, since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
2017-02-21T10:05:55Z beach: afidegnum: But ogamita has a link I think.
2017-02-21T10:06:42Z afidegnum: ok,
2017-02-21T10:06:52Z afidegnum: but i think he is not online
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2017-02-21T10:07:34Z beach: Hold on...
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2017-02-21T10:08:14Z malice`: afidegnum: you can also try to disucss it on #lispcafe
2017-02-21T10:09:46Z beach: afidegnum: OK, just briefly: Scheme is a Lisp-1 which is small, so easy to understand, but lacking lots of useful stuff.  Common Lisp is a Lisp-n which is big, but you don't need to program your own object system to use it.
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2017-02-21T10:11:13Z ogamita: That said r7rs is a bigger scheme standard that try to normalize a lot of useful stuff, so it's not lacking anymore.  I don't know if they have an object system though.
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2017-02-21T10:12:48Z beach: afidegnum: The main interesting difference for practical purposes might well be that #scheme is fairly dead (or so I hear), but #lisp is very active, so you get better help if you use Common Lisp.
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2017-02-21T10:13:47Z afidegnum: i recently started reading about lisp, which is so easy to the extend i can even write the procedures even on paper which is different from other languages,
2017-02-21T10:13:50Z jackdaniel: #scheme is active with decent information/noise ratio
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2017-02-21T10:14:07Z afidegnum: but i need to understand it fullly
2017-02-21T10:14:51Z beach: afidegnum: Also, Common Lisp being a big standard, Common Lisp implementations are fairly interchangeable.  Any particular Scheme implementation may have what you need (say an object system) but since it's not necessarily part of the standard, it will be different in different implementations.
2017-02-21T10:15:22Z afidegnum: i think i will then have to stick to Common Lisp
2017-02-21T10:15:53Z beach: afidegnum: This aspect is important, because it has happened to me in the past that I chose a particular Scheme implementation, only to find it no longer maintained after a while.
2017-02-21T10:17:15Z afidegnum: when was last scheme implemented?  i mean the release date?
2017-02-21T10:18:28Z jackdaniel: chicken had a release today from implementations. I think it's offtopic on this channel though
2017-02-21T10:18:43Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-21T10:18:54Z jackdaniel: there is ##lisp for cross-dialect discussions (low traffic)
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2017-02-21T11:38:21Z phoe_: clhs concatenate
2017-02-21T11:38:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm
2017-02-21T11:38:23Z phoe_: "It is an error if any element of the sequences cannot be an element of the sequence result"
2017-02-21T11:38:36Z phoe_: The latter part of this sentence doesn't sound like proper English.
2017-02-21T11:38:43Z phoe_: ...of the result sequence perhaps?
2017-02-21T11:39:54Z |3b|: or '...of the sequence result-sequence'
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2017-02-21T11:40:28Z |3b|: or maybe just '...of result-sequence'
2017-02-21T11:41:12Z phoe_: |3b|: the last option is good.
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2017-02-21T11:46:04Z phoe_: clhs merge
2017-02-21T11:46:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_merge.htm
2017-02-21T11:46:08Z phoe_: the example has syntax errors
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2017-02-21T11:46:26Z phoe_: unpaired "
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2017-02-21T11:46:33Z phoe_: and args to vector are not quoted
2017-02-21T11:47:27Z phoe_: wait, should vector take more than a single argument for this to work?
2017-02-21T11:47:38Z phoe_: like, (vector 'foo 'bar)?
2017-02-21T11:47:44Z phoe_: and not (vector '(foo bar))?
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2017-02-21T11:50:24Z malice`: phoe_: yes, you are right
2017-02-21T11:50:53Z phoe_: malice`: I'd really prefer not to be right most of the time in this case.
2017-02-21T11:51:03Z phoe_: The examples are a real mess.
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2017-02-21T11:56:02Z phoe_: clhs remove
2017-02-21T11:56:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm
2017-02-21T11:56:25Z phoe_: (lambda (ignore item) (funcall test item))
2017-02-21T11:56:27Z phoe_: ouch
2017-02-21T11:56:30Z phoe_: *ouch*
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2017-02-21T11:57:34Z phoe_: which args should this lambda have?
2017-02-21T11:57:39Z phoe_: this is a test, so one argument
2017-02-21T11:58:04Z phoe_: s/one/two/
2017-02-21T11:58:42Z phoe_: or wait, is this actually how the arguments are named and not a broken declare expression?
2017-02-21T11:58:46Z phoe_: I'm lost
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2017-02-21T12:01:21Z phoe_: I don't understand this part in the slightest.
2017-02-21T12:02:47Z phoe_: The (lambda (ignore item) ...) will always be called with NIL as its first argument, correct?
2017-02-21T12:03:03Z phoe_: Since NIL is the item in the call to DELETE.
2017-02-21T12:03:22Z |3b|: yeah, that sounds right
2017-02-21T12:03:24Z phoe_: So basically we FUNCALL the test and check if it returns nil. If yes - we delete.
2017-02-21T12:03:30Z |3b|: unused argument named ignore, that gets the NIL
2017-02-21T12:03:39Z phoe_: This is completely not obvious.
2017-02-21T12:05:37Z phoe_: I am editing the specification here to use the proper IGNORE declaration.
2017-02-21T12:05:57Z phoe_: X3J13 sped me on my blasphemous voyages.
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2017-02-21T12:13:28Z phoe_: (eq (cdr foo) (car bar)) =>  T or ...
2017-02-21T12:13:33Z phoe_: I'm curious what the "..." means here
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2017-02-21T12:15:43Z phoe_: Is this the implementation-dependent zone?
2017-02-21T12:15:53Z phoe_: Or the unspecified zone?
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2017-02-21T12:17:47Z malice`: phoe_: The second part of the alternative is left as an excercise for the reader.
2017-02-21T12:17:52Z malice`: ;)
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2017-02-21T12:21:40Z |3b|: unspecified i think
2017-02-21T12:21:57Z |3b|: and/or implementation dependent
2017-02-21T12:22:27Z |3b| supposes an implementation could specify their behavior there, i don't think that is one of the places where that isn't allowed
2017-02-21T12:23:15Z |3b|: but it is allowed to behave differently each time if it wants to
2017-02-21T12:23:47Z phoe_: okay
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2017-02-21T12:23:52Z phoe_: I call implementation-dependent
2017-02-21T12:24:01Z phoe_: if I'm wrong, please tell me so.
2017-02-21T12:24:04Z |3b| would say unspecified
2017-02-21T12:24:12Z phoe_: ...or undefined?
2017-02-21T12:24:32Z phoe_: unspecified, undefined, implementation-dependent, implementation-specified or implementation-defined?
2017-02-21T12:24:34Z |3b|: "implementation dependent" suggests implementations should pick a behavior, which i don't think is required
2017-02-21T12:24:57Z |3b|: does the spec define any of those terms?
2017-02-21T12:25:18Z phoe_: haha, yes, some of them
2017-02-21T12:26:18Z |3b| wouldn't use implementation-dependent if the spec doesn't, since it has meaning in the spec ('encouraged to document...')
2017-02-21T12:26:39Z |3b|: and even less so for implementation-defined, since it is required to specify its behavior
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2017-02-21T12:27:48Z phoe_: yes, correct.
2017-02-21T12:27:57Z phoe_: so now, undefined or unspecified?
2017-02-21T12:28:05Z phoe_: I'd say undefined because implementations are free to define this
2017-02-21T12:28:22Z phoe_: which I think is how the specification defines "undefined"
2017-02-21T12:28:47Z |3b|: clhs 1.4.2
2017-02-21T12:28:47Z specbot: Error Terminology: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_db.htm
2017-02-21T12:28:55Z |3b|: sounds more like 'unsecified' to me
2017-02-21T12:29:24Z phoe_: Oh wait.
2017-02-21T12:29:27Z phoe_: "...but harmless."
2017-02-21T12:29:41Z phoe_: Yes, correct.
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2017-02-21T13:45:02Z myrkraverk: Is there a standard way to build strings?
2017-02-21T13:45:15Z Xach: myrkraverk: with-output-to-string is one handy way
2017-02-21T13:45:29Z Xach: myrkraverk: you can also use adjustable vectors and push characters to them.
2017-02-21T13:45:30Z myrkraverk: I need to insert characters in "random" places; to decode punycode.
2017-02-21T13:45:54Z Xach: myrkraverk: there is no data structure built-in for that kind of operation in a terse way. you'd have to roll your own.
2017-02-21T13:46:17Z myrkraverk: I see.
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2017-02-21T13:46:38Z myrkraverk: When the final character list is done, I can use with-output-to-string, or something else.
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2017-02-21T13:46:56Z adlai: how about collecting them in lists, and then (concatenate 'string all your lists)
2017-02-21T13:47:13Z Xach: it seems like there are many possible strategies
2017-02-21T13:47:19Z myrkraverk: lists (for the initial prototype) is what I'm currently thinking about.
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2017-02-21T13:48:40Z adlai: i'm no unicode expert but you it may be more efficient to accumulate them in a sparse vector, then condense it; but yeah, prototyping with lists is the standard way to do most anything
2017-02-21T13:48:49Z myrkraverk: I'll try that, and see where it leads; getting punycode to decode correctly is the first task; optimizing the string building is the next one.
2017-02-21T13:49:22Z adlai: TIL that "punycode" is not just a tongue-in-cheek name for unicode
2017-02-21T13:49:25Z Xach: Is the task a bottleneck in some pipeline?
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2017-02-21T13:50:21Z myrkraverk: Kind of, yes (punycode).
2017-02-21T13:51:11Z adlai: out of curiosity, what are you doing that the bottleneck is making funky domain names readable?
2017-02-21T13:52:06Z myrkraverk: I'm not doing domain names.
2017-02-21T13:53:02Z myrkraverk: But I'll share the decoder -- assuming I manage it; the spec and example code (that I've seen) aren't exactly esay to read.
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2017-02-21T14:10:10Z malice`: myrkraverk: do you want to build string, or modify one?
2017-02-21T14:10:25Z malice`: btw. you can also use (format nil "..." ...)
2017-02-21T14:10:33Z malice`: where ... and ... is format string and arguments
2017-02-21T14:10:37Z myrkraverk: I need to insert into random places.
2017-02-21T14:10:58Z malice`: myrkraverk: into an existing string? Or do you want to return a newly created one?
2017-02-21T14:11:00Z myrkraverk: "bcher-kva" -> "bücher"
2017-02-21T14:11:20Z flip214: build a tree, and use (concatenate 'string (alexandria:flatten tree)) to get the plain string out?
2017-02-21T14:11:26Z malice`: these two are different strings.
2017-02-21T14:11:33Z myrkraverk: so -kva inserts ü in location 1.
2017-02-21T14:11:50Z myrkraverk: malice`: no, one is punycode, the other is unicode.
2017-02-21T14:11:53Z myrkraverk: or utf-8.
2017-02-21T14:12:19Z myrkraverk: flip214: good idea -- I'm currently experimenting with a plain list.
2017-02-21T14:12:34Z myrkraverk: to get the decoder working first.
2017-02-21T14:13:13Z edgar-rft wants ponycode
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2017-02-21T14:13:47Z malice`: myrkraverk: is -kva a single character in punycode?
2017-02-21T14:15:24Z malice`: I believe it isn't.
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2017-02-21T14:15:40Z malice`: Okay, well, I would suggest using vectors instead of lists. Lists are slow and have big overhead.
2017-02-21T14:16:13Z myrkraverk: malice`: yes it is.
2017-02-21T14:16:32Z myrkraverk: For other people confused, please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punycode
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2017-02-21T14:19:05Z malice`: myrkraverk: it looks like you can un-random it after parsing the suffix?
2017-02-21T14:19:30Z myrkraverk: malice`: the point I was making, is that I need to insert characters at "random" locations while decoding.
2017-02-21T14:19:41Z malice`: as in random access.
2017-02-21T14:19:46Z myrkraverk: Yes.
2017-02-21T14:19:52Z myrkraverk: and strings are immutable.
2017-02-21T14:19:56Z malice`: Yes.
2017-02-21T14:20:15Z myrkraverk: And as Xach said, there's no built-in datatype that makes splicing in values easy.
2017-02-21T14:20:59Z easye: myrkraverk: CONS arguably is the "best" splicing API.
2017-02-21T14:21:13Z myrkraverk: easye: yeah, I'm using it for now.
2017-02-21T14:21:49Z myrkraverk: Or, rather, right now I'm delving into the spec to see if I can make something more sensible than the horrid example code.
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2017-02-21T14:22:03Z easye: It at least allows you to optimize somewhat.  The whole bit about being destructive for efficiency on a given splice is bad.
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2017-02-21T14:22:20Z easye: Maybe the best way to deal with things is have a vector.
2017-02-21T14:22:46Z myrkraverk: easye: but I can't predict what locations I need to insert in, as I decode.
2017-02-21T14:22:49Z easye: Declare routines which map a given section into a cons, then change the vector after you have finished working on the CONS section.
2017-02-21T14:22:56Z easye: But you have a buffer.
2017-02-21T14:23:34Z myrkraverk: yeah, and I have to admit, I don't exactly follow what you mean.
2017-02-21T14:24:00Z myrkraverk: what does "Declare routines which map a given section into a cons" mean?
2017-02-21T14:24:01Z easye: Mebbe I am not making sense.  I need to re-read the chat a sec to make sure I am understand your question.
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2017-02-21T14:24:41Z easye reads up on Punycode.
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2017-02-21T14:25:36Z easye: How big are your Punycode strings you wish to decode?
2017-02-21T14:25:47Z myrkraverk: I think up to 1 or 2k.
2017-02-21T14:25:55Z myrkraverk: but I'm not exactly sure yet.
2017-02-21T14:26:38Z easye: So, take the input string, split it into the ascii part and the Punycode dictionary part.
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2017-02-21T14:27:20Z myrkraverk: the ascii part needs to be a list for now, because that's where I insert in random locations.
2017-02-21T14:27:36Z easye: But your goal is ascii-->utf8 right.
2017-02-21T14:27:40Z easye: ?
2017-02-21T14:28:06Z myrkraverk: look at the example I gave above.
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2017-02-21T14:28:20Z myrkraverk: "bcher-kva" -> "bücher"
2017-02-21T14:28:53Z easye: 1) split into (:ascii "bcher" :dictionary "kva")
2017-02-21T14:28:56Z myrkraverk: This means I need to expand "bcher" into something I can insert characters at /random/ location.
2017-02-21T14:29:22Z myrkraverk: for now, I do this: (b c h e r)
2017-02-21T14:29:48Z easye: 2) Build a list of insertions specified on :dictionary "kva"
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2017-02-21T14:30:21Z easye: since the :ascii portion presumably contains most of what you want to copy, use it to drive the output
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2017-02-21T14:30:57Z easye: 3) loop through :ascii "bcher" accumulating values from either :ascii or the list you prepared in step 2)
2017-02-21T14:31:14Z easye: That accumulated value is your result.
2017-02-21T14:33:51Z myrkraverk: " :ascii portion presumably contains most of what you want" <-- I believe this will be false in my production strings.
2017-02-21T14:34:56Z easye: Further argument: the ascii string is strictly monotonically increasing wrt. the corresponding output character position
2017-02-21T14:35:21Z easye: which makes it a good index.
2017-02-21T14:36:16Z easye: (and doesn't have the "random access" problem that you seem to be wrestling with)
2017-02-21T14:36:28Z Xach: myrkraverk: not related to solving any of your problems (sorry), but how did you wind up with such punycode?
2017-02-21T14:36:33Z Xach is curious only
2017-02-21T14:36:49Z myrkraverk: Xach: we found it the best encoding for internal network traffic.
2017-02-21T14:37:20Z Xach: wow!
2017-02-21T14:37:22Z myrkraverk: So I'm stuck with it (for now) -- and if I want to use lisp, I need to coll my own decoder.
2017-02-21T14:37:33Z myrkraverk: *roll
2017-02-21T14:37:58Z myrkraverk: Xach: for some use cases, it's more efficient than plain utf-8.
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2017-02-21T14:38:47Z Xach: I am very curious about such things, but they don't seem topical, so I'll leave it.
2017-02-21T14:39:04Z easye: myrkraverk: but you should be using a good dictionary compression method external to the protocol (i.e. just run it through gzip)
2017-02-21T14:39:12Z myrkraverk: It wasn't my experimenting, so I can't comment about it further anyway.
2017-02-21T14:39:33Z easye: Fair enough.
2017-02-21T14:40:25Z myrkraverk: easye: question though: if punycode encodes more efficiently than utf-8 for our use cases, why not use both punycode and gzip?
2017-02-21T14:40:41Z easye: Architectural layering reasons:
2017-02-21T14:41:03Z easye: 1) the information is only useful after the decoding is done.
2017-02-21T14:41:14Z easye: So start with UTF-8 (ASCII is a subset)
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2017-02-21T14:41:56Z myrkraverk: you're assuming the part about minimizing network traffic is not important (I believe it is, but again, not my experiment).
2017-02-21T14:42:26Z easye: gzip would allow you to make such space preserving dictionaries for all your input characters.
2017-02-21T14:42:45Z easye: Therefore, it can only be *more* efficient.
2017-02-21T14:43:01Z easye: And it makes the initial Punycode irrelevant.
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2017-02-21T14:43:41Z myrkraverk: easye: you're assuming english or a european langage strings.
2017-02-21T14:43:53Z easye: Actually, this is highly depenendent on the characters that are typical for your messages.
2017-02-21T14:43:59Z myrkraverk: menaing: you're assuming things which may not (and aren't) true, in our case.
2017-02-21T14:45:05Z phoe_: Haha. There are so, so many reviewer remarks left in the spec that make sense.
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2017-02-21T14:45:11Z easye: No, I we are making a lot of assumptions here.
2017-02-21T14:45:13Z phoe_: But I guess it was too expensive to implement them.
2017-02-21T14:45:15Z phoe_: clhs terpri
2017-02-21T14:45:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm
2017-02-21T14:45:21Z phoe_: Exceptional Situations: None. \reviewer{Barmar: What if stream is closed?}
2017-02-21T14:46:39Z easye: Anyways, the architecture stuff is not really part of #lisp, and you know a lot more about your problem than I do.  Just trying to provide some constructive assertions...
2017-02-21T14:46:57Z myrkraverk: easye: *nod*
2017-02-21T14:47:12Z myrkraverk: easye: in this case, it was not my decision; I just have to live with it.
2017-02-21T14:47:22Z easye understands.
2017-02-21T14:47:36Z myrkraverk: I'm not going to argue.  Implementing punycode decoder is a slight challenge (for me) but I'm sure I'll make it.
2017-02-21T14:47:47Z easye: So, let's get back to doing Punycode decoding in Lisp.
2017-02-21T14:48:00Z myrkraverk: And I'm sure it'll end up in quicklisp if I manage it.
2017-02-21T14:48:05Z easye: Cool.  Having an itch to scratch is how everything starts...
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2017-02-21T15:10:04Z mazoe: shhh, not all of us have had *the talk*
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2017-02-21T15:10:56Z phoe_: mazoe: what happens when the left paren meets the right paren?
2017-02-21T15:11:09Z phoe_: haha, it's a safe talk
2017-02-21T15:11:12Z phoe_: because nil happens
2017-02-21T15:11:17Z mazoe: hahah
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2017-02-21T15:11:20Z mazoe: gotta love a good itch
2017-02-21T15:13:36Z ogamita: ()
2017-02-21T15:14:39Z flip214: "when the left paren(t) meets the right paren(t) we get ... a lot of child nodes, each of them non-NIL?"
2017-02-21T15:14:46Z ogamita: (.) (.)
2017-02-21T15:14:46Z ogamita:  )   (
2017-02-21T15:14:46Z ogamita: (  v  )
2017-02-21T15:15:08Z flip214: a dog!
2017-02-21T15:15:16Z mazoe: **invalid syntax
2017-02-21T15:15:22Z edgar-rft: omigata: are that p-expressions?
2017-02-21T15:15:34Z flip214: mazoe: depends on your reader (macros)...
2017-02-21T15:15:50Z mazoe: beauty is in the eye of the reader?
2017-02-21T15:16:10Z ogamita: You would indeed have to wrap it. It's not a stand alone sexp.
2017-02-21T15:16:13Z Zhivago: beauty is in the eye of all right-thinking people.
2017-02-21T15:16:21Z mazoe: sexps are always better wrapped.
2017-02-21T15:16:27Z flip214: ouch, or rather double-plus-good?
2017-02-21T15:16:31Z shikhin changed the topic of #lisp to: 32
2017-02-21T15:16:33Z ogamita: People thinking with their right-brain?
2017-02-21T15:16:37Z mazoe: lol
2017-02-21T15:16:44Z phoe_ facepalms
2017-02-21T15:17:21Z flip214: having a fun day here, I see.
2017-02-21T15:17:50Z mazoe: instructive for some
2017-02-21T15:18:04Z phoe_ enters the debugger, goes back to toplevel
2017-02-21T15:18:22Z flip214: funny enlightment gets remembered more often
2017-02-21T15:20:03Z mazoe: so on a serious note, has anyone used clinch, or similar graphics libs?
2017-02-21T15:20:15Z beach:  myrkraverk: You can use the Flexichain library for inserting characters in random places into a "string".
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2017-02-21T15:21:04Z myrkraverk: beach: thanks, I'll consider it when I've finished the decoder.
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2017-02-21T15:26:11Z beach: It was created for that very use case, but if your operations are at truly random places (as opposed to having some locality), then performance won't be fantastic.
2017-02-21T15:28:23Z myrkraverk: beach: I'll put it through benchmarks with production strings; compared to using a list; vs. some other methods.
2017-02-21T15:28:50Z beach: OK.  It will be much better than lists, that's for sure.
2017-02-21T15:29:14Z flip214: beach: well, for a few items only lists might be faster, even...
2017-02-21T15:29:34Z beach: I think I read 1k somewhere.
2017-02-21T15:29:41Z beach: Maybe I misunderstood.
2017-02-21T15:29:45Z flip214: or have an array, and inserting an element means replacing the character there with a (cons new old-char)
2017-02-21T15:30:11Z flip214: ain't DNS limited to 255 characters? or is that per-level? don't remember.
2017-02-21T15:30:54Z myrkraverk: I'm not doing DNS.
2017-02-21T15:31:24Z myrkraverk: And I'm not sure about the exact length of the production strings; maybe they're as long as 1k.  Maybe only a 100-200 bytes.
2017-02-21T15:32:39Z phoe_: clhs write-string
2017-02-21T15:32:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_stg.htm
2017-02-21T15:32:45Z phoe_: (write-string string) ==  (dotimes (i (length string) (write-char (char string i)))
2017-02-21T15:32:51Z phoe_: ...is the right side correct?
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2017-02-21T15:33:01Z phoe_: the DOTIMES result-form is only evaluated once.
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2017-02-21T15:34:05Z phoe_: Wait.
2017-02-21T15:34:15Z phoe_: It's a missing rparen after (length string).
2017-02-21T15:38:16Z myrkraverk: I'm actually thinking a punycode decoder may benefit from some literate programming.
2017-02-21T15:38:22Z myrkraverk: Does noweb work well with lisp?
2017-02-21T15:39:45Z phoe_: myrkraverk: yes
2017-02-21T15:39:56Z myrkraverk: Cool stuff.
2017-02-21T15:40:04Z phoe_: you simply input strings between pieces of code
2017-02-21T15:40:35Z myrkraverk: I haven't had a reason to do literate programming since I was in school and delivering code projects.
2017-02-21T15:40:56Z phoe_: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.programming.literate/7i2IkqYCfBM
2017-02-21T15:41:05Z phoe_: http://home.scarlet.be/asld0009/Noweb/autodef.html
2017-02-21T15:41:35Z phoe_: https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/axiom-developer/2009-11/msg00052.html
2017-02-21T15:42:10Z myrkraverk: I used noweb in school, it was awesome.
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2017-02-21T15:42:40Z ogamita: myrkraverk: in CL, #| = start of literature, and |# (eql start-of code)
2017-02-21T15:43:22Z myrkraverk: ogamita: it's annoying to explain the mathematical stuff in comments, though.
2017-02-21T15:43:22Z phoe_: ogamita: except it looks that noweb is capable of autogenerating TeX.
2017-02-21T15:43:30Z myrkraverk: the text only RFC is bad enough.
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2017-02-21T15:44:04Z myrkraverk: I remember doing some really nice things with noweb in school.
2017-02-21T15:44:06Z ogamita: Why do you say they're bad? I find them quite clear.  They're wonderful documents.
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2017-02-21T15:44:39Z ogamita: This is why I like reStructured Text, it's basically a RFC format with invisible markup.
2017-02-21T15:44:41Z myrkraverk: ogamita: compared to TeX for math, the punycode RFC is horrible.
2017-02-21T15:44:57Z ogamita: For math, I don't say.
2017-02-21T15:45:10Z ogamita: That said, I guess you could update the RFC to unicode.
2017-02-21T15:45:11Z myrkraverk: ogamita: I'm not saying always (that RFC is bad) but in this case, I do find it so.
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2017-02-21T15:46:06Z ogamita: E₀=½mv²
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2017-02-21T15:52:28Z myrkraverk: Personally, the reason I want to try literate programming, is that I find the explanations in the RFC not too clear; and an implementation can use a better documentation on what it's actually doing and why.
2017-02-21T15:53:36Z phoe_: clhs file-position
2017-02-21T15:53:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_p.htm
2017-02-21T15:53:41Z phoe_: someone tell me what this example is meant to do
2017-02-21T15:55:14Z phoe_: it's working code, yes
2017-02-21T15:55:22Z phoe_: except I have no freaking idea what it is meant to showcase
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2017-02-21T16:00:18Z beach: phoe_: Do you mean the TESTER example?
2017-02-21T16:00:22Z |3b|: write byte increases by position 1 in a binary file, seeking to a previous position may or may not work
2017-02-21T16:00:39Z phoe_: beach: yes.
2017-02-21T16:00:48Z beach: Yes, it doesn't look that hard.
2017-02-21T16:01:08Z phoe_: I understand it a little bit more now that I look at it, but it's not outright obvious.
2017-02-21T16:01:14Z |3b|: if it did work it wrote 2 bytes (5 7), otherwise it wrote 3
2017-02-21T16:01:30Z |3b|: or it might just completely ignore you :)
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2017-02-21T16:04:03Z phoe_: aah
2017-02-21T16:04:17Z phoe_ reached OPEN in chapter Streams.
2017-02-21T16:04:19Z phoe_: pause time
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2017-02-21T16:18:36Z afidegnum: which one would you suggest to use?   Steel Bank Common Lisp (SBCL) or Clozure Common Lisp (CCL)?  what's the difference between them?
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2017-02-21T16:20:23Z beach: afidegnum: From reading what people say here, SBCL generates faster code, and CCL generates code faster.
2017-02-21T16:20:52Z afidegnum: :) now this is english
2017-02-21T16:21:25Z afidegnum: meaning SBCL generates performant code than CCL ?
2017-02-21T16:21:48Z phoe_: afidegnum: yes, and CCL has a faster compiler.
2017-02-21T16:21:58Z phoe_: and some say it works better under Windows.
2017-02-21T16:22:13Z phoe_: and some say it provides a slightly more pleasing debugging experience.
2017-02-21T16:22:26Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-21T16:22:29Z phoe_: but I've been developing mostly under SBCL and I don't have any complaints.
2017-02-21T16:22:42Z phoe_: afidegnum: how well do you know Lisp?
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2017-02-21T16:23:01Z afidegnum: I m now learning it,
2017-02-21T16:23:03Z phoe_: and what do you intend on doing with the implementation once you grab it?
2017-02-21T16:23:15Z afidegnum: develop desktop and web applications
2017-02-21T16:23:33Z phoe_: In this case there's no difference between SBCL and CCL that you will be able to perceive at your current level.
2017-02-21T16:24:02Z phoe_: Just grab either of them.
2017-02-21T16:24:12Z phoe_: And if you have any questions, feel free to fire them here or at #clnoobs.
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2017-02-21T16:27:54Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-02-21T16:28:12Z afidegnum: why clusters of lips channels ?
2017-02-21T16:28:36Z Bike: cos we talk enough that it's advantageous to split em up a lil bit
2017-02-21T16:29:30Z afidegnum: and I come accross Portacle, is it advisable to use it ?
2017-02-21T16:29:44Z phoe_: afidegnum: if it works for you, then yes.
2017-02-21T16:29:52Z phoe_: it's not finished yet, but it might be wise to give it a try.
2017-02-21T16:29:56Z afidegnum: there have been disclaimer about it's stability
2017-02-21T16:30:04Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-21T16:30:05Z phoe_: Basically - try running it.
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2017-02-21T16:30:35Z phoe_: If it crashes/segfaults/catches fire for you, then it'll be better for you to set up a stationary emacs+slime+quicklisp combo.
2017-02-21T16:31:14Z phoe_: actually, emacs+quicklisp+slime.
2017-02-21T16:31:16Z phoe_: in this order.
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2017-02-21T16:31:47Z afidegnum: that's what i m looking for
2017-02-21T16:32:11Z phoe_: afidegnum: if Portacle works, then you're set.
2017-02-21T16:32:17Z afidegnum: but i can't find the windows version of clisp except on cygwin
2017-02-21T16:32:26Z phoe_: *DON'T* use CLISP.
2017-02-21T16:32:37Z phoe_: It's a very old and unmaintained implementation.
2017-02-21T16:32:48Z afidegnum: oh ok
2017-02-21T16:32:52Z phoe_: Download either SBCL or CCL.
2017-02-21T16:32:53Z beach: *DON'T* use Windows.
2017-02-21T16:32:59Z phoe_: beach: that's the second step.
2017-02-21T16:33:13Z afidegnum: i have my Linux PC, i left at home, i will have to go for it,
2017-02-21T16:33:16Z phoe_: They both have stable Windows versions, although there are reports of people prefering CCL on Windows.
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2017-02-21T16:34:33Z afidegnum: ok
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2017-02-21T16:38:24Z ogamita: phoe_: clisp is not unmaintained.
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2017-02-21T16:38:38Z afidegnum: phoe_: which one is quicklisp?
2017-02-21T16:38:55Z phoe_: ogamita: this is very recent news.
2017-02-21T16:39:08Z phoe_: afidegnum: Quicklisp is a Common Lisp package manager.
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2017-02-21T16:39:18Z afidegnum: ok
2017-02-21T16:39:20Z phoe_: Once you have your implementation installed, follow the steps at https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ to get it installed.
2017-02-21T16:39:35Z phoe_: And once you have it install, you (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)
2017-02-21T16:39:42Z phoe_: and it automatically installs slime for you.
2017-02-21T16:40:11Z phoe_: If you do this (which is the suggested way of acquiring slime/swank), don't install slime/swank from any other place or they will collide.
2017-02-21T16:40:52Z phoe_: ogamita: also, I won't believe this until I see some actual repository activity.
2017-02-21T16:40:58Z ogamita: eg. the last commit is Tue Feb 21 00:23:01 2017 +0100
2017-02-21T16:41:10Z phoe_: ogamita: link me the repo, I'll want to see it.
2017-02-21T16:41:26Z ogamita: hg clone http://hg.code.sf.net/p/clisp/clisp clisp-hg ; cd clisp-hg/; hg log | head -20
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2017-02-21T16:42:49Z ogamita: For example, clisp has better support for unicode than the other implementations, with better = has a more complete char-names database (and perhaps other things).
2017-02-21T16:43:18Z ogamita: Also, clisp is localized in more than half a dozen european languages (including Russian).
2017-02-21T16:43:38Z phoe_: ogamita: oh look. This is *very* good news.
2017-02-21T16:46:50Z afidegnum: that's great
2017-02-21T16:47:24Z afidegnum: i m playing with portacle now till i will have access ot my Linux PC and continue there
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2017-02-21T17:42:36Z shka_: dear #lisp
2017-02-21T17:42:38Z nyingen: why is the topic 32?
2017-02-21T17:42:46Z jasom: ogamita: sbcl has caught up on unicode I expect, as they now scrape right from the unicode documents.
2017-02-21T17:43:58Z shka_: could you please tell me why sbcl won't stack allocate variable path in the following function?
2017-02-21T17:44:00Z shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339647
2017-02-21T17:44:41Z shka_: i thought that it is because of displaced-to
2017-02-21T17:44:49Z shka_: but even without it, this won't work
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2017-02-21T17:48:52Z phoe: it does not know what final-fn returns
2017-02-21T17:49:04Z phoe: final-fn can just return its argument
2017-02-21T17:49:16Z phoe: which is displaced to a theoretically stack-allocated array
2017-02-21T17:49:25Z shka_: why is that even matter for stack allocation of array?
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2017-02-21T17:49:46Z phoe: because (final-fn x) can return x
2017-02-21T17:49:54Z phoe: and therefore descend-into-hash will return x
2017-02-21T17:50:02Z shka_: phoe: i can remove final funcall and it won't change a thing
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2017-02-21T17:50:05Z phoe: and if your X is stack-allocated, you're burning.
2017-02-21T17:50:07Z phoe: shka_: hmm.
2017-02-21T17:50:12Z shka_: besides, safety is 0
2017-02-21T17:50:28Z phoe: I really don't know.
2017-02-21T17:50:33Z phoe: #sbcl might be able to help you.
2017-02-21T17:50:49Z shka_: moment
2017-02-21T17:50:55Z shka_: i may know what is wrong
2017-02-21T17:51:39Z phoe: hm?
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2017-02-21T17:53:34Z phoe: shka_: don't leave me curious like that
2017-02-21T17:54:54Z shka_: give me a second
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2017-02-21T18:04:08Z shka_: phoe: ok, got it
2017-02-21T18:04:25Z phoe: shka_: what was it?
2017-02-21T18:04:33Z shka_: aah soryy, not
2017-02-21T18:04:39Z phoe: oh dagnabbit
2017-02-21T18:04:41Z shka_: i don't know what is wrong :D
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2017-02-21T18:13:27Z krwq: hey, not sure how to ask this question with words: let -> let*, symbol-macrolet -> ?
2017-02-21T18:13:48Z shka_: phoe: solved
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2017-02-21T18:15:25Z krwq: actually there was no question since there is no need for it
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2017-02-21T18:16:25Z phoe: krwq: you don't need symbol-macrolet*
2017-02-21T18:16:35Z phoe: ...uh, or wait
2017-02-21T18:16:36Z shka_: phoe: if you are still wondering
2017-02-21T18:16:41Z phoe: shka_: yes, I am
2017-02-21T18:16:43Z phoe: clhs symbol-macrolet
2017-02-21T18:16:43Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_symbol.htm
2017-02-21T18:17:19Z shka_: phoe: sbcl supports stack allocating for list, list* and arrays, but it puts restrictions on arrays
2017-02-21T18:17:25Z phoe: krwq: wait wait, you mean, you want to affect one symbol-macrolet binding from inside another symbol-macrolet binding
2017-02-21T18:17:28Z phoe: right?
2017-02-21T18:17:36Z krwq: phoe: I also just noticed - thanks. is there an option to expand symbol macrolets like macroexpand-1?
2017-02-21T18:17:44Z shka_: namely, make-array can be called with only one key argument (that one being :element-type)
2017-02-21T18:17:57Z phoe: krwq: macroexpand
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2017-02-21T18:18:02Z shka_: i was using initial-element as well
2017-02-21T18:18:12Z shka_: so sbcl would not stack allocate array
2017-02-21T18:18:13Z phoe: shka_: got it
2017-02-21T18:18:15Z shka_: BUT
2017-02-21T18:18:19Z shka_: fun fact
2017-02-21T18:18:38Z krwq: phoe: (symbol-macrolet ((a (+ 1 2)) (b (+ a a))) (macroexpand 'b)) => b
2017-02-21T18:18:41Z shka_: this code actually runs FASTER withour dynamic-excent declaration
2017-02-21T18:18:46Z shka_: :D
2017-02-21T18:18:52Z phoe: krwq: ...hm
2017-02-21T18:19:22Z Bike: krwq: symbol-macrolet defines a lexical environment with the expansions, which macroexpand is not privvy to.
2017-02-21T18:19:55Z Bike: do you just want this for debugging or what?
2017-02-21T18:19:55Z phoe: so I'm puzzled.
2017-02-21T18:20:01Z phoe: how does one macroexpand symbol macros then?
2017-02-21T18:20:05Z shka_: ah, no sorry
2017-02-21T18:20:12Z Bike: same way you expand macros?
2017-02-21T18:20:12Z shka_: i guess i am already tired
2017-02-21T18:20:14Z ogamita: wiht macroexpand or macroexpand-2
2017-02-21T18:20:18Z shka_: dynamic-extent is faster
2017-02-21T18:20:24Z Bike: (macrolet ((foo () ())) (macroexpand '(foo))) => (FOO) as well
2017-02-21T18:20:39Z ogamita: But you need a macro to collect the environment!
2017-02-21T18:20:46Z Bike: if you want to do it in a lexical environment, it's tricky since it's hard to get access to those
2017-02-21T18:21:09Z Bike: but usually you'd only want to do so in a macro or for debugging
2017-02-21T18:22:03Z krwq: Bike: yes for debugging - i could probably live without it but want to figure this out proactively and not when i will be hit by this
2017-02-21T18:22:31Z ogamita: (defmacro expand (form &environment env) (print (macroexpand form env)))  #| --> expand |#  (symbol-macrolet ((a (+ 1 2)) (b (+ a a))) (expand b)) #| (+ a a)  --> 6 |# )
2017-02-21T18:22:51Z Bike: krwq: in slime you can do slime-macroexpand-all
2017-02-21T18:23:00Z phoe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Issues/iss338_w.htm
2017-02-21T18:23:01Z ogamita: (defmacro expand (form &environment env) `',(macroexpand form env)) (symbol-macrolet ((a (+ 1 2)) (b (+ a a))) (expand b))  #| --> (+ a a) |#
2017-02-21T18:23:03Z phoe: this was passed
2017-02-21T18:23:31Z Bike: yes?
2017-02-21T18:23:51Z krwq: ogamita: nice - thanks!
2017-02-21T18:24:16Z ogamita: Now, if you use it carefully, you should be able to do: (defmacro env (&environment env) env)  (symbol-macrolet ((a (+ 1 2)) (b (+ a a))) (macroexpand 'b (env))) #| --> (+ a a) ; t |#
2017-02-21T18:24:27Z phoe: so symbol-macrolet and macroexpand *ought* to work, in theory
2017-02-21T18:24:39Z ogamita: But the result of (env) is only available where (env) is called. You cannot store it.
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2017-02-21T18:24:46Z Bike: phoe: the problem isn't specific to symbol-. macroexpand just expands in the global environment, is all.
2017-02-21T18:24:59Z ogamita: It would be the same with macrolet indeed.
2017-02-21T18:25:03Z Bike: ogamita: i think technically the environment argument to a macro function has dynamic extent, ie cannot be returned
2017-02-21T18:25:11Z krwq reading about &environment
2017-02-21T18:25:14Z Bike: though i dunno if any implementations are that annoying
2017-02-21T18:25:26Z phoe: Bike: yes, got it.
2017-02-21T18:25:40Z phoe: Bike: SBCL returns it
2017-02-21T18:25:42Z phoe: and woah
2017-02-21T18:25:45Z Bike: it's basically the same confusion as eval, where people expect a regular function to know about the environment it's called in
2017-02-21T18:25:47Z phoe: (let ((x 3)) (env))
2017-02-21T18:25:51Z phoe: it's full of stars
2017-02-21T18:26:01Z shka_: phoe: env is not in the scop
2017-02-21T18:26:02Z shka_: e
2017-02-21T18:26:10Z ogamita: (let ((x 3)) (env)) #| --> #<ccl::lexical-environment #x30200211E78D> |#  in ccl…
2017-02-21T18:26:16Z Bike: on like, ecl i think, environments are conses, so you have to quote them for things like this
2017-02-21T18:26:55Z phoe: Bike: it's a #S on SBCL.
2017-02-21T18:27:04Z Bike: i know
2017-02-21T18:27:09Z phoe: shka_: that macro from ogamita
2017-02-21T18:27:13Z Bike: i wrote a library for introspecting them
2017-02-21T18:27:14Z phoe: (defmacro env (&environment env) env)
2017-02-21T18:27:25Z phoe: so yes, it'd be safer for quoting them.
2017-02-21T18:27:36Z shka_: ah, that
2017-02-21T18:27:44Z shka_: i did it myself :D
2017-02-21T18:27:50Z shka_: as well
2017-02-21T18:27:59Z ogamita: Perhaps it would be safer to write it as: (defmacro env (&environment env) `',env)
2017-02-21T18:28:19Z shka_: but on the long run, it was just easier to slap (break) in macro
2017-02-21T18:28:28Z ogamita: But then lexical environments won't be serializable in a FASL file, so you won't be able to compile-file a call to (env)…
2017-02-21T18:28:31Z shka_: sldb allowed to introspect env
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2017-02-21T20:21:14Z flip214: Bike: please share a link to the library. thank you!
2017-02-21T20:21:42Z Bike: https://github.com/Bike/introspect-environment
2017-02-21T20:21:47Z Bike: it's more a portability layer than anything
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2017-02-22T00:26:49Z |3b|: is modifying the counter in DOTIMES allowed?
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2017-02-22T00:28:12Z Bike: doesn't look like it says, but i would guess no, based on it's not defined how it's bound
2017-02-22T00:28:14Z aeth: it works in my nightmare of an example: http://paste.lisp.org/+7A3J
2017-02-22T00:28:32Z |3b|: actually it doesn't work, which is why i wondered
2017-02-22T00:28:38Z aeth: it works in SBCL
2017-02-22T00:28:49Z Bike: not so well between iterations, i bet
2017-02-22T00:28:52Z |3b|: on sbcl it executes the wrong # of times and returns wrong value
2017-02-22T00:29:04Z aeth: that's because of the goto!
2017-02-22T00:29:13Z |3b|: (dotimes (i 10 i) (prin1 i) (incf i 2)) loops forever on CCL
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2017-02-22T00:29:42Z |3b|: no, DOTIMES is specified to execute the body N times and bind the variable to # of iterations during return
2017-02-22T00:30:04Z |3b|: so even if you change it, it should execute the body 10 times, with i having the values 0-9
2017-02-22T00:30:26Z Bike: so it would work if the variable was rebound each iteration, as is allowed but not required. so i'm sayin no
2017-02-22T00:30:39Z |3b|: depends on how it binds it
2017-02-22T00:30:50Z jasom: " It is implementation-dependent whether dotimes establishes a new binding of var on each iteration or whether it establishes a binding for var once at the beginning and then assigns it on any subsequent iterations. "
2017-02-22T00:30:54Z |3b|: if it did a tail recursion on old-value + 1, it would still get wrong iteration count
2017-02-22T00:31:02Z aeth: |3b|: dotimes has an implicit tagbody, though, so I can use GO to abuse its functionality... normally it's a let around a tagbody with a go to a gensym
2017-02-22T00:31:08Z |3b|: so i don't thing bind vs modify matters
2017-02-22T00:31:26Z Bike: true, i suppose
2017-02-22T00:31:33Z |3b|: aeth: sure, you can jump around inside the body all you want, doesn't change the fact that DOTIMES should enter the body N times, with all values from 0 to N-1
2017-02-22T00:31:42Z |3b|: (assuming you don't jump out of the body)
2017-02-22T00:32:02Z |3b|: and the variable should be # of iterations when evaluating result
2017-02-22T00:32:04Z aeth: So is my example then a contradiction between the specification and every actual implementation?
2017-02-22T00:32:27Z |3b| suspects it is non-conformant, but can't find it in the spec
2017-02-22T00:32:41Z aeth: my example prints the same on all I've tested it on
2017-02-22T00:32:52Z |3b|: try incrementing by 2
2017-02-22T00:32:55Z Bike: more like the spec forgot to specify this fairly obvious restriction
2017-02-22T00:33:21Z aeth: oooh, ccl gives a warning "In an anonymous lambda form: Shouldn't assign to variable I"
2017-02-22T00:33:24Z |3b| thinks it did, just can't remember where
2017-02-22T00:33:29Z aeth: I'm surprised that something other than SBCL warned, and SBCL didn't warn
2017-02-22T00:33:55Z |3b|: yeah, that was other reason i asked, since i'd file a bug if it is conformant :)
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2017-02-22T00:34:31Z aeth: Maybe SBCL should just give a warning
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2017-02-22T00:34:45Z aeth: like it does when you e.g. set an element of '(1 2 3)
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2017-02-22T00:35:31Z aeth: I was just having fun with a messy but apparently valid CL form, I didn't intend to find something.
2017-02-22T00:36:19Z |3b|: ah, looks like i was thinking of something else ( http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm )
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2017-02-22T02:07:36Z krwq: hello, I'm trying to build exe for my app and have some difficulties - here is what I do: sbcl --no-userinit, load quicklisp, load my package, save lisp and die. it saves exe but when i start it get error like: FreeType error: INVALID-LIBRARY-HANDLE
2017-02-22T02:08:11Z krwq: when i do same thing but instead of save-lis-and-die i just run the toplevel function everything works
2017-02-22T02:08:51Z krwq: + the image is 160MB which is kinda large
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2017-02-22T02:09:26Z krwq: i care little about the size though, more about errors on load
2017-02-22T02:09:46Z Zhivago: It sounds like the image expects a shared library to have been loaded already, which won't be the case when the image is restored.
2017-02-22T02:10:21Z krwq: Zhivago: I'm doing :executable t so is that still the case?
2017-02-22T02:11:08Z Zhivago: I don't know -- I'm just suggesting a diagnosis.
2017-02-22T02:11:23Z Zhivago: See if you can save the image before the shared library gets loaded.
2017-02-22T02:12:15Z krwq: Zhivago: in order to load my library i need to pull bunch of other libs
2017-02-22T02:12:27Z Bike: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Loading-Shared-Object-Files something about this. i don't know how it works though.
2017-02-22T02:13:23Z Zhivago: There is a difference between lisp packages or systems, and native shared libraries loaded via an FFI.
2017-02-22T02:14:09Z Zhivago: You should be able to load the lisp code, dump and image, and then start it running, which would include loading the native shared libraries via the FFI.
2017-02-22T02:14:36Z Zhivago: Bike's reference should be an easy way to test it.
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2017-02-22T02:19:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: krwq: are you on windows?
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2017-02-22T02:32:04Z krwq: fiddlerwoaroof: not yet but will be doing that on windows too. how do i check where to get the .so file from?
2017-02-22T02:32:28Z krwq: and which one of them - i just added the /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfreetype.so and got memory corruption error
2017-02-22T02:35:14Z krwq: i think the problem might be because im using ql:quickload to load my package
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2017-02-22T02:35:33Z krwq: and some pointers to ffi functions might be baked into the image
2017-02-22T02:36:25Z Zhivago: That sounds roughly correct. There should be some way to separate the loading of the package and the initialization of the package. Or to set up some on-image-load hookery.
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2017-02-22T02:38:01Z krwq: saving lisp image feels disappointing to me, it feels like this problem should be already solved and all of this stuff should be happening automatically
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2017-02-22T02:42:06Z Zhivago: Sure -- you can think of it as being a dark-ages solution to shared linkage.
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2017-02-22T02:42:28Z Zhivago: Before shared linkage it was pretty impressive.
2017-02-22T02:42:56Z krwq: Zhivago: Im still not sure how to build it properly
2017-02-22T02:43:47Z Bike: maybe ask sbcl
2017-02-22T02:43:54Z Bike: or use ccl, if you can, it has more windows support i think
2017-02-22T02:44:40Z krwq: Bike: i need both windows and linux
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2017-02-22T02:44:57Z Bike: ccl also works on linux
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2017-02-22T02:45:37Z krwq: Bike: i'll try on #sbcl first
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2017-02-22T03:17:14Z Bike: what are the semantics of nonlocal exits from thread thunks? "don't"?
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2017-02-22T03:19:04Z pillton: krwq: Saving a lisp image does more than shared linkage.
2017-02-22T03:20:34Z pillton: Bike: Landing in the debugger?
2017-02-22T03:20:58Z Bike: i guess an unhandled memory fault sort of counts as that
2017-02-22T03:22:59Z krwq: pillton: you don't happen to have any guideliness on doing it properly?
2017-02-22T03:24:16Z pillton: krwq: It is easy if you use systems which don't automatically load shared libraries.
2017-02-22T03:24:42Z pillton: krwq: I really wish authors would stop doing that.
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2017-02-22T03:29:13Z pillton: krwq: Are you running the executable on a host which was not used to build it?
2017-02-22T03:29:24Z krwq: pillton: currently the same
2017-02-22T03:30:20Z pillton: Right. I would stop the library from auto loading the shared library first.
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2017-02-22T03:30:51Z krwq: pillton: i do not know which library is doing that
2017-02-22T03:31:25Z pillton: Then insert the (cffi:load-foreign-library) calls right before you call save-lisp-and-die.
2017-02-22T03:31:38Z krwq: pillton: is there some general way of saying: do not load any libraries?
2017-02-22T03:31:45Z pillton: krwq: You are using a system which requires freetype.
2017-02-22T03:32:06Z krwq: pillton: correct, i assume that's gonna be texatl
2017-02-22T03:32:13Z krwq: or sdl2
2017-02-22T03:32:18Z krwq: or cl-glut
2017-02-22T03:32:25Z krwq: or opticl
2017-02-22T03:32:33Z krwq: i got no clue to be honest
2017-02-22T03:33:13Z pillton: Looks like you need to grep.
2017-02-22T03:33:36Z krwq: pillton: grep what with what search?
2017-02-22T03:33:53Z krwq: i tried loading cffi first and using this: (pushnew "/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu" cffi:*foreign-library-directories* :test #'equal)
2017-02-22T03:33:57Z Bike: i would guess sdl, though.
2017-02-22T03:34:05Z pillton: krwq: find . -name '*.lisp' -print -exec grep freetype '{}' ';'
2017-02-22T03:34:11Z krwq: texatl is for sure using it
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2017-02-22T03:41:16Z krwq: pillton: i only got entries in: cl-freetype2 from ql and texatl which seems to be simply depends on it
2017-02-22T03:43:04Z axion: fiddlerwoaroof: was it you that recommended spinneret?
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2017-02-22T03:43:41Z pillton: krwq: You need to look for a top level form which loads the shared library.
2017-02-22T03:48:05Z Bike: src/ffi/ft2-lib.lisp it looks like
2017-02-22T03:49:26Z krwq: Bike: is it the use-foreign-library thing?
2017-02-22T03:49:50Z Bike: jah
2017-02-22T03:51:02Z krwq: how do you fix this so that i can produce exe? i think if you help me with one i should be fine to do it for the rest
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2017-02-22T03:52:41Z pillton: It depends on what you want to do. Do you want the executable to find the shared libraries when it is executed or do you want the shared library locations to be saved with the executable?
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2017-02-22T03:53:20Z krwq: pillton: whatever is easier
2017-02-22T03:53:56Z krwq: i guess most of the people are like "i just want to run the damn thing"
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2017-02-22T03:57:57Z pillton: What is the value of sb-sys:*shared-objects* before you call save-lisp-and-die?
2017-02-22T03:58:07Z krwq: i just tried (sb-alien:load-shared-object "libfreetype.so") in the very beginning of my build script (before loading anything) and im getting unhandled memory fault now - ill be looking now if it went past the last instruction and failed somewhere else or is it because of that
2017-02-22T03:58:14Z krwq: let me check
2017-02-22T03:58:37Z pillton: You should specify an absolute path in order to avoid searching.
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2017-02-22T03:59:11Z krwq: pillton: im not sure how to check what's the absolute
2017-02-22T03:59:21Z krwq: im kinda a linux newbie
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2017-02-22T03:59:31Z krwq: i used to be windows only until this year
2017-02-22T03:59:39Z krwq: last year*
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2017-02-22T04:00:49Z krwq: https://gist.github.com/krwq/52a3585428ce672307b679d81fe17789
2017-02-22T04:00:54Z krwq: here is that var
2017-02-22T04:01:04Z krwq: i'll try adding all of these for now
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2017-02-22T04:01:58Z axion: Can someone tell me what they get as a return for the following form (after quickloading spinneret system)? I am getting inconsistent results in a few similar bugs I am encountering, depending on being inside Sly, SLIME, or the regular SBCL REPL: (spinneret:with-html-string (:div "hello" (:a :href "#") "there"))
2017-02-22T04:02:14Z pillton: krwq: I presume they are all in /usr/lib.
2017-02-22T04:04:03Z Bike: axion: <div>\nhello<a href=#></a>  there\n</div> in sbcl 1.3.3.76 slime
2017-02-22T04:04:11Z krwq: Memory fault at (nil) (pc=0x7ffff0d8dd6a, sp=0x7fffeaf35b60)
2017-02-22T04:04:12Z krwq: The integrity of this image is possibly compromised.
2017-02-22T04:04:12Z krwq: Continuing with fingers crossed.
2017-02-22T04:04:12Z krwq: Unhandled SB-SYS:MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR in thread #<SB-THREAD:THREAD
2017-02-22T04:04:12Z krwq:                                                 "SDL2 Main Thread" RUNNING
2017-02-22T04:04:12Z krwq:                                                  {1009CB0203}>:
2017-02-22T04:04:12Z krwq:   Unhandled memory fault at #x0.
2017-02-22T04:04:24Z Bike: hey, that's the same error i got before. weird
2017-02-22T04:04:40Z axion: Bike: Thanks. That surely seems like a library bug then.
2017-02-22T04:04:47Z Bike: axion: identical in terminal
2017-02-22T04:04:51Z krwq: pillton: do they need to be full paths?
2017-02-22T04:04:56Z axion: Bike: Why the hell would 2 spaces be inserted before "there"?
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2017-02-22T04:05:18Z Bike: beats me
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2017-02-22T04:06:16Z axion: There seems to be an extra space inserted for every string literaly used
2017-02-22T04:06:22Z axion: I give up tracking this issue down.
2017-02-22T04:06:29Z axion: literal rather
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2017-02-22T04:08:37Z krwq: pillton: seems to be failing when doing "foreign function: ft_mem_qalloc"
2017-02-22T04:10:30Z pillton: krwq: Right. I don't know how to solve that one.
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2017-02-22T04:11:14Z krwq: pillton: but it seems that loading the function likely worked, i was previously getting error about bad address
2017-02-22T04:11:30Z krwq: now only the call is broken
2017-02-22T04:12:10Z pillton: krwq: Well that is something.
2017-02-22T04:12:46Z krwq: Thanks pillton, I'll keep on poking this
2017-02-22T04:13:22Z pillton: krwq: You are welcome. Perhaps something is holding on to an object which is no longer valid?
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2017-02-22T04:13:53Z pillton: Instances of foreign objects aren't preserved in lisp images from what I understand.
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2017-02-22T04:14:07Z krwq: pillton: it is likely something in texatl
2017-02-22T04:14:25Z krwq: pillton: im gonna poke on that library to see
2017-02-22T04:15:44Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-22T04:16:19Z krwq: Good morning beach
2017-02-22T04:16:44Z krwq: pillton: i think this might be the issue: (defun new-face (pathname &optional (index 0) (library *library*))
2017-02-22T04:16:49Z krwq: the library arg
2017-02-22T04:18:05Z krwq: they have the init.lisp in freetype with (setf *library* (make-freetype))
2017-02-22T04:19:12Z pillton: krwq: Did you specify a toplevel function to save-lisp-and-die?
2017-02-22T04:19:26Z krwq: pillton: yes
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2017-02-22T04:20:40Z pillton: krwq: Ok. Try inserting (asdf:load-system "cl-freetype2") at the beginning of the toplevel function.
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2017-02-22T04:21:38Z pillton: krwq: Sorry. The name of the system which has the (setf *library* (make-freetype)) top level form.
2017-02-22T04:21:47Z krwq: pillton: same stuff
2017-02-22T04:22:25Z pillton: Did you rebuild the executable after making the change to the toplevel function?
2017-02-22T04:22:44Z krwq: pillton: i just made sure - yes
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2017-02-22T04:23:40Z pillton: Oh wait.. (asdf:load-system "cl-freetype2" :force t).
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2017-02-22T04:26:42Z krwq: pillton: compile file error on start but i cant find the error
2017-02-22T04:27:55Z krwq: pillton: i just fixed it!!!
2017-02-22T04:28:02Z krwq: (setf freetype2:*library* (freetype2:make-freetype))
2017-02-22T04:28:04Z pillton: krwq: Alright, try (setf <pkg>::*library* (<pkg>::make-freetype)) where <pkg> is the package name.
2017-02-22T04:28:11Z krwq: lol
2017-02-22T04:28:23Z krwq: just fixed it with exactly that
2017-02-22T04:28:50Z krwq: thank you pillton!!!
2017-02-22T04:28:54Z pillton: Sorry. I assumed there was other top level nonsense.
2017-02-22T04:29:05Z pillton: ..which is why I went with the load-system option.
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2017-02-22T04:29:22Z krwq: but that was a freetype issue unless im doing it wrong
2017-02-22T04:29:41Z krwq: pillton: i didnt expect it to just work after that
2017-02-22T04:29:51Z pillton: You aren't doing it wrong. The freetype system is doing it wrong.
2017-02-22T04:30:09Z pillton: Time matters.
2017-02-22T04:30:25Z pillton: I would submit a bug report.
2017-02-22T04:30:46Z krwq: nice, my first exe with lisp
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2017-02-22T04:31:32Z krwq: so you say that they should just do eval-when on that init file?
2017-02-22T04:31:38Z krwq: with :compile
2017-02-22T04:32:12Z pillton: No. All of it should be done at run time rather than load time.
2017-02-22T04:32:50Z pillton: save-lisp-and-die does not reevaluate top level forms.
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2017-02-22T04:35:30Z pillton: The same goes for shared library locations. It all should be done at run time.
2017-02-22T04:43:47Z beach: krwq: Why are you using an FFI library when we have native support for Truetype rendering?
2017-02-22T04:44:04Z krwq: beach: define "we"
2017-02-22T04:44:13Z beach: The Common Lisp community.
2017-02-22T04:44:19Z beach: It's in McCLIM.
2017-02-22T04:44:41Z krwq: beach: i didn't know how to use mcclim with opengl
2017-02-22T04:44:44Z axion: It is also outside of McCLIM
2017-02-22T04:44:53Z axion: Xach wrote one
2017-02-22T04:45:13Z beach: I forget the details of what McCLIM uses, but maybe it is what Xach wrote.
2017-02-22T04:45:19Z axion: zpb-ttf
2017-02-22T04:45:38Z beach: Right.
2017-02-22T04:46:01Z krwq: how do you use that with opengl? do you also create some kind of atlas?
2017-02-22T04:46:29Z beach: I don't know.  Ask jackdaniel.
2017-02-22T04:46:40Z axion: Many different ways. I believe aeth uses it with OpenGL. You could ask him.
2017-02-22T04:47:43Z krwq: i usually do stuff which is easiest - when i want to print text i prefer to use something which i can make work quickly - mcclim was too much for 3 evenings for me, i had pretty quick results with texatl
2017-02-22T04:48:04Z beach: krwq: I am not saying you should use McCLIM.
2017-02-22T04:48:16Z krwq: i actually do want to have gui
2017-02-22T04:48:24Z krwq: that's why i started learning about it
2017-02-22T04:48:27Z beach: krwq: I am urging you to use the native Common Lisp Truetype rendering library, rather than FFI.
2017-02-22T04:48:33Z krwq: i want to have gui in opengl though
2017-02-22T04:48:47Z krwq: it wasnt clear to me how do i even start to make that work with opengl
2017-02-22T04:50:28Z krwq: beach: i'll check it out when i'll be playing with fonts more - im not changing code which works
2017-02-22T04:50:37Z axion: Many use nuklear for that, though it is foreign code
2017-02-22T04:50:48Z krwq: i do want to do that pretty soon though
2017-02-22T04:51:19Z krwq: axion: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-nuklear ?
2017-02-22T04:51:29Z axion: There are a few, also https://github.com/cbaggers/raw-bindings-nuklear
2017-02-22T04:51:53Z krwq: im confused - is it nuklear or IM GUI?
2017-02-22T04:52:22Z axion: nuklear is the C library they wrap https://github.com/vurtun/nuklear
2017-02-22T04:52:25Z axion: bodge is by borodust in #lispgames. the latter is by Baggers who pops in now and then.
2017-02-22T04:53:13Z krwq: axion: im confused about bodge-nuklear since the description says "Wrapper over nuklear IM GUI library for cl-bodge system." - I head about IM GUI before but not nuklear
2017-02-22T04:53:45Z axion: IM stands for immediate mode, which is a type of gui system that nuklear is, not to be confused with the immediate mode usage of OpenGL
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2017-02-22T04:56:08Z krwq: axion: i think someone also called their library IM GUI then :P I will check out the gui since it's the next thing on my bullet list
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2017-02-22T04:57:53Z krwq: axion: do you know about any nice opengl games?
2017-02-22T04:58:00Z krwq: (lisp games)
2017-02-22T04:58:11Z axion: If you are developing a game, the GUI should probably be last. Infact, I would write your entire business logic without graphics first. It is _very_ easy to get lost in rendering for years when developing an OpenGL game, to the point where you are left with a sad attempt at a graphics demo, rather than anything close to resembling a game.
2017-02-22T04:58:13Z krwq: not necessarily open source
2017-02-22T04:58:49Z axion: I have written a few games in lisp, that took me years, that I can't even call games in retrospect.
2017-02-22T04:58:57Z krwq: axion: i wanted gui for debugging and some sensible in-game editor
2017-02-22T05:00:01Z krwq: i do want a simple working gui with treeview and drag & drop
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2017-02-22T05:00:27Z krwq: axion: what kind of stuff did you do?
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2017-02-22T05:02:33Z axion: I wrote a 3D turn-based strategy game with multi-million polygons, or well most of the graphics code and collision detection. The actual game isn't there, because I didn't know what I do now, and that is also the reason why you won't find any Common Lisp games that are finished, aside some extremely simple games, and the 2D xelf-based games by dto.
2017-02-22T05:03:39Z krwq: axion: you mean there is no games because people just start doing side projects?
2017-02-22T05:04:03Z krwq: or get distracted by stuff?
2017-02-22T05:04:17Z axion: Everyone gets hung up on developing an engine, and more specifically, how it should render things. The truth is, an engine is exactly that - a very specific thing for a very specific game. You can't reuse it for other games without a lot of work. It is tailored to how the data flows back and forth from the GPU, which depends greatly on the game and the usage patterns.
2017-02-22T05:06:06Z axion: There are no games, because a 3D game in particular, is much more than you can anticipate, and you will get distracted by rendering and trying to generalize your engine.
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2017-02-22T05:09:50Z krwq: axion: did anyone try embedding ECL in unreal engine?
2017-02-22T05:10:23Z axion shrugs.
2017-02-22T05:10:38Z axion: Why not just use ue/unity if you don't want a lisp game?
2017-02-22T05:11:00Z krwq: i do want a game in lisp but even more i want to finish it
2017-02-22T05:11:44Z krwq: writing logic is easier in lisp, writing low level is quite annoying though
2017-02-22T05:12:00Z krwq: you can write logic in lisp but use unreal as a backend
2017-02-22T05:12:05Z krwq: + engine is not a game
2017-02-22T05:13:11Z axion: Writing a game, even when not starting from scratch, still requires a lot of research. Seriously, you better be prepared to know a lot of math, especially linear algebra. dual numbers/quaternions will be needed if you are serious, and of course vector/matrix algebra. This is just the tip though. It is a very rewarding yet a lifelong journey to develop a successful game.
2017-02-22T05:13:44Z krwq: axion: i always liked math
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2017-02-22T05:14:25Z eazar001 is now known as number
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2017-02-22T05:14:44Z axion: I fear I am veering way off topic, so if you have anymore questions, you can PM me or ask in the dedicated channel.
2017-02-22T05:15:06Z krwq: ok, ill be porting my app to windows now :P
2017-02-22T05:15:22Z beach: axion: Thanks for sharing the insight about game development.  I know nothing about it, so it is interesting to read what you have to say.
2017-02-22T05:16:20Z axion: beach: It is interesting to say the least. You will cover more CS/math than any other project.
2017-02-22T05:16:51Z krwq: thank you axion abut also pillton and everyone who helped me creating executable
2017-02-22T05:16:54Z beach: axion: Interesting!
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2017-02-22T05:19:42Z smokeink_: does anyone know a solution to this asdf issue ? http://pastecode.ru/7aa3e5/
2017-02-22T05:19:46Z beach: axion: Do people who attempt to develop games realize that?
2017-02-22T05:20:08Z Bike: yeah, it's cool how there's foundational CS research by the randos who made a shareware game about shooting demons
2017-02-22T05:20:43Z axion: beach: I think in the back of their mind, yes. One-man teams usually attempt to cut a lot of corners, by eg; using a C GUI library, or hiring an artist/using free assets.
2017-02-22T05:20:53Z Bike: smokeink_: i would guess that asdf tries to read the entire defsystem form before it can load defsystem dependencies
2017-02-22T05:21:36Z axion: beach: But, there are quite a few who probably don't ever expect to finish and do it to learn (like myself), or to just have a 'forever project'.
2017-02-22T05:22:00Z Bike: smokeink_: when i used a test system before i did something stupid like (funcall (find-symbol "RUN!" "5AM") :default)
2017-02-22T05:22:19Z Bike: smokeink_: but maybe you can get away with just defining the perform method in a separate form
2017-02-22T05:22:27Z beach: axion: Yes, I see.
2017-02-22T05:22:52Z rk[ghost]: every write code that you know will break somewhere, but it turns out to break in the opposite condition you thought would break it? .. ha
2017-02-22T05:24:43Z axion: Code will always break in that condition :)
2017-02-22T05:24:49Z axion does not believe in robustness :)
2017-02-22T05:25:20Z rk[ghost]: probably have to wait til tomorrow to solve it
2017-02-22T05:25:29Z rk[ghost]: still waiting for my mental thread to return
2017-02-22T05:26:12Z rk[ghost]: someone forgot to implement a stack exhaust checker.. i think it is just hanging
2017-02-22T05:26:52Z Bike: maybe it doesn't add to the stack and just efficiently does nothing
2017-02-22T05:28:46Z smokeink_: Bike: i see, that funcall hack works well for 5am but i don't know how to get around with those asdf subclasses : http://pastecode.ru/2ed128/
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2017-02-22T05:29:32Z Bike: indeed, problematic
2017-02-22T05:29:42Z Bike: i'm not good enough with asdf to give you a solution other than the eval-when, sorry
2017-02-22T05:30:23Z smokeink_: it's okay, thank you for the tips
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2017-02-22T05:31:13Z pillton: smokeink_: You can do this too: https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store/blob/master/tests/asdf.lisp#L3
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2017-02-22T05:31:54Z pillton: smokeink_: This is what CFFI does: https://github.com/cffi/cffi/blob/master/grovel/asdf.lisp#L150
2017-02-22T05:32:24Z pillton: Personally, I prefer the eval-when solution.
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2017-02-22T05:33:40Z pillton: Actually, I prefer asdf to some how read defsystem-depends-on using a special reader.
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2017-02-22T05:45:04Z smokeink_: pillton: okay
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2017-02-22T05:54:48Z smokeink_: pillton: what does the special reader do ?
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2017-02-22T05:57:48Z pillton: Well, the reason it fails now is because the reader tries to intern symbols in a package which doesn't exist.
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2017-02-22T05:58:35Z pillton: So, asdf would require a reader which would stop that from happening.
2017-02-22T06:00:40Z smokeink_: yeah
2017-02-22T06:02:34Z pillton: I suspect transitioning to a truly declarative system definition would be a lot of work.
2017-02-22T06:04:12Z pillton: ...if possible at all.
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2017-02-22T06:10:00Z Zhivago: Just separate it into plan building and plan execution.
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2017-02-22T06:23:53Z vtomole: Hey, i'm studying norvig's lisp compiler:http://www.norvig.com/paip/compile3.lisp, and when I executed "(compiler scheme-top-level)", I get "{??}". Does this mean that the compiler function is returning binary?
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2017-02-22T06:29:55Z Bike: what implementation is that? don't think i've seen a result like that before from much of anything
2017-02-22T06:31:33Z vtomole: I'm on sbcl.
2017-02-22T06:31:46Z beach: And I don't see a function named COMPILER in that paste.
2017-02-22T06:32:12Z beach: So it's hard to see what happens for such a call.
2017-02-22T06:32:13Z vtomole: compiler3 depends on compiler1 http://www.norvig.com/paip/compile1.lisp
2017-02-22T06:32:34Z Bike: oh, there you go then
2017-02-22T06:32:38Z Bike: you can see the ?? output in print-fn there
2017-02-22T06:32:51Z Bike: it just means that it returned a function, then
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2017-02-22T06:33:58Z vtomole: ahh thanks I should really read this stuff in order :(. I thought working backwords would be the best way.
2017-02-22T06:33:58Z beach: Well, a struct of type FN.
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2017-02-22T06:34:13Z vtomole: *backwards
2017-02-22T06:34:37Z Bike: in any case {??} is not something a lisp implementation is going to print by itself, {} is reserved for users. i think. probably
2017-02-22T06:36:03Z vtomole: Hey beach, thanks for recomending "lisp in small pieces". I'm making slow but significant progress with it.
2017-02-22T06:36:41Z vtomole: Bike have you read Norvig's paip?
2017-02-22T06:36:47Z Bike: i have
2017-02-22T06:36:54Z Bike: it is sitting in the bookcase behind me, even
2017-02-22T06:37:15Z Bike: book...shelf. words are hard sometimes.
2017-02-22T06:37:16Z beach: vtomole: Sure.  Glad you like it.  As you know, the English translation is much better than the original, thanks to a brilliant translator.
2017-02-22T06:37:28Z Bike: heh.
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2017-02-22T06:40:14Z vtomole: Bike: As you know Norvig implements a bytecode interpreter, he says each opcode is a single byte, why is that the case?
2017-02-22T06:40:48Z Bike: why a single byte rather than more? because it's a simple system that doesn't require more than 256 distinct opcodes, i guess?
2017-02-22T06:42:40Z vtomole: That probabbly why he also implemented a stack based machine instead of a register one, stacks are more simple and it gets the point across.
2017-02-22T06:42:40Z Bike: naturally, if you're making your own compiler and bytecode interpreter, you define the bytecode to suit your needs
2017-02-22T06:43:01Z Bike: registers entails register allocation, which is one of the hardest parts of a good compiler
2017-02-22T06:43:29Z Bike: "whoops our algorithm is exponential sometimes"
2017-02-22T06:43:34Z beach: NP-hard as I recall.
2017-02-22T06:44:27Z vtomole: Any advantages to registers than stacks except speed of instruction execution?
2017-02-22T06:44:40Z Bike: not really, but that's a pretty important advantage
2017-02-22T06:45:26Z Bike: though not as important in a basic virtual machine as in a real one, i guess
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2017-02-22T06:46:36Z Bike: brief googling suggests sun's jvm has no registers
2017-02-22T06:46:54Z akkad: android is register based
2017-02-22T06:46:57Z Bike: but dalvik does. lots of things to balance here
2017-02-22T06:46:59Z vtomole: lua does
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2017-02-22T07:11:52Z vtomole: Why a bytecode interpreter and not just an assembly interpeter?  Assembly and machine code are going to have a 1 to 1 correspondence. Doesn't writing an assembler to give the bytecode that you are going to run thorugh an intepreter just extra work?
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2017-02-22T07:15:12Z beach: vtomole: In practice, real processors are much more complicated than a bytecode interpreter.
2017-02-22T07:15:46Z beach: ... than a virtual machine defined as a stack machine with bytecode instructions, I should have said.
2017-02-22T07:18:23Z vtomole: Are processors complicated just because of the optimizations that they have to perform?
2017-02-22T07:19:01Z beach: I suppose you could say that.
2017-02-22T07:19:29Z beach: More accurately: because of the demands on the speed of execution of machine code.
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2017-02-22T07:20:45Z Bike: vtomole: well, for this particular example, i can assure you that norvig's bytecode is about a hundred times easier than the assembly language of my PC
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2017-02-22T07:22:48Z Bike: machines are complicated because they optimize, but also because they actually exist, so their designers are concerned with things like power draw, interrupts, hardware support for random crap like crypto, forward and backwards compatibility, bla bla bla bla bla that you don't need for a lua game scripting thing
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2017-02-22T07:25:13Z vtomole: Bike: But could he just write an intepreter for the isa that he defined? It only has 13 opcodes. He does lisp->assembly->bytecode intepreter. But he could do lisp->assembly interpreter, right?
2017-02-22T07:25:15Z Bike: also, assembly instructions do not have a one to one correspondence with machine instructions, if you meant that
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2017-02-22T07:25:36Z Bike: not usually anyway
2017-02-22T07:25:45Z vtomole: Bike: Oh, then my instructor lied to me
2017-02-22T07:26:04Z Bike: it's a much closer correspondence, but not that close
2017-02-22T07:26:30Z Bike: trying to remember how norvig worked... let me just grab the book
2017-02-22T07:26:37Z beach: vtomole: I am thinking he did it that way to illustrate what an assembler has to do.
2017-02-22T07:27:14Z beach: vtomole: He could also not have defined a virtual machine at all, and just interpreted the source code.
2017-02-22T07:27:30Z beach: vtomole: That would have been even simpler.
2017-02-22T07:27:38Z Bike: yeah that kind of sums it up
2017-02-22T07:27:50Z Bike: bytecode can be faster and easier to store and such
2017-02-22T07:27:57Z Bike: but it makes the compiler a little more difficult
2017-02-22T07:28:27Z vtomole: ahh i see
2017-02-22T07:28:29Z beach: vtomole: What Bike says.  It is a spectrum of compromises, from simple+slow to complicated+fast.
2017-02-22T07:29:15Z Bike: for example, looking at the bytecode interpreter at 814, it's 1) retrieve instruction from memory/PC 2) incf PC 3) switch on the opcode 4) repeat
2017-02-22T07:29:25Z beach: vtomole: He put himself in the middle so as to illustrate what a real compiler has to do, but without having to get involved in all the complexity of what a compiler for a real processor has to do.
2017-02-22T07:29:33Z Bike: the entire interpreter could be arithmetic and a computed goto
2017-02-22T07:29:37Z Bike: blazin' speed
2017-02-22T07:29:50Z vtomole: ha!
2017-02-22T07:29:53Z Bike: with an assembly interpreter there'd be more memory retrievals and such
2017-02-22T07:30:41Z Zhivago: You'd need to replicate the dispatch logic that is in the asm->mc translation, at least.
2017-02-22T07:31:08Z smokeink_: what's mc ?
2017-02-22T07:31:15Z Bike: machine code
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2017-02-22T07:33:45Z smokeink_: pillton: is that reader's code hosted somewhere? Can you share it? I'd like to see how it works
2017-02-22T07:33:53Z Bike: assembly also has labels, which are annoying to interpret
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2017-02-22T07:37:31Z vtomole: Thanks for the help. Now back to more studying...
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2017-02-22T09:07:39Z phoe_: ah, it's a nice day
2017-02-22T09:09:51Z edgar-rft: where?
2017-02-22T09:11:02Z phoe_: in Poland, Cracow
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2017-02-22T09:11:54Z edgar-rft: ah, in Germany it's raining...
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2017-02-22T09:12:51Z loke: It's a nice day here too
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2017-02-22T09:13:28Z loke: 30° and late afternoon, making it somewhat cool.
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2017-02-22T09:43:06Z phoe_: Xach: http://data.xach.com/cll.txt.gz gives me 404.
2017-02-22T09:43:22Z phoe_: Xach: via http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/notes.html
2017-02-22T09:43:37Z phoe_: actually worse
2017-02-22T09:43:55Z phoe_: it gives me NXDOMAIN
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2017-02-22T09:57:00Z hydan: anybody know how to tell buildapp to compile the binary with specific, say older, glibc?
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2017-02-22T10:42:17Z pillton: smokeink_: The reader I was talking about when we were discussing ASDF?
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2017-02-22T12:08:48Z _death: phoe: https://adeht.org/dump/cll.7z
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2017-02-22T12:21:03Z phoe_: _death: <3
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2017-02-22T12:28:15Z malice`: Hi all!
2017-02-22T12:28:23Z phoe_: hey malice`
2017-02-22T12:28:33Z malice`: What happened to the header(MOTD?)?
2017-02-22T12:28:42Z phoe_: malice`: 32
2017-02-22T12:28:53Z malice`: phoe_: is it the final countdown?
2017-02-22T12:28:58Z phoe_: fe[nl]ix: maybe you know what happened to the header
2017-02-22T12:29:32Z phoe_: _death: c.l.l looks like a fairly interesting, if outright weird, archive of knowledge to dive in
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2017-02-22T12:35:53Z fe[nl]ix changed the topic of #lisp to: topic
2017-02-22T12:37:14Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2017-02-22T12:37:21Z fe[nl]ix has set mode +b *!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin
2017-02-22T12:37:21Z shikhin [~quassel@pdpc/supporter/professional/fenlix] has been kicked from #lisp by fe[nl]ix (shikhin)
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2017-02-22T12:37:44Z phoe_: fe[nl]ix: ...
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2017-02-22T12:37:48Z phoe_: I still don't get any of this
2017-02-22T12:37:57Z fe[nl]ix: the user I just kicked out changed it a few hours ago
2017-02-22T12:37:59Z fe[nl]ix: it's in the logs
2017-02-22T12:38:08Z phoe_: wait, can everyone just change the topic?
2017-02-22T12:38:11Z phoe_ changed the topic of #lisp to: like
2017-02-22T12:38:14Z phoe_: ......
2017-02-22T12:38:17Z phoe_: oh gods
2017-02-22T12:38:18Z fe[nl]ix: now, if I could just get the last one
2017-02-22T12:38:27Z phoe_: it should be in the logs as well
2017-02-22T12:38:30Z fe[nl]ix: phoe_: yes. one tries to be friendly and this happens
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2017-02-22T12:39:15Z phoe_: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|SBCL 1.3.14, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11|ASDF 3.2.0
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2017-02-22T12:39:36Z phoe_: let's fix it a bit while we're at it
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2017-02-22T12:39:56Z fe[nl]ix: thanks
2017-02-22T12:40:36Z phoe_: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | contact op if muted | SBCL 1.3.14, CMUCL 21b, ECL 16.1.3, CCL 1.11 | ASDF 3.2.0
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2017-02-22T12:44:01Z _death: phoe: yes, many hours were spent spelunking that particular corner
2017-02-22T12:44:08Z phoe_: fe[nl]ix: I can't set the topic though
2017-02-22T12:44:17Z phoe_: could you op its way into its proper place?
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2017-02-22T13:02:39Z sjl: any other iterate users have an elegant solution for the annoying "every iterate clause must have an even number of args" thing?
2017-02-22T13:03:23Z sjl: e.g. I made a driver to generate fibonacci numbers so I can do (iterate (for f :in-fibonacci t) (finding f :such-that ...))
2017-02-22T13:03:45Z sjl: but that 't' in the driver clause is annoying me
2017-02-22T13:04:08Z sjl: it's just a variable I ignore because iterate wants arguments in pairs :\
2017-02-22T13:04:23Z phoe_: clhs GET-OUTPUT-STREAM-STRING
2017-02-22T13:04:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_ou.htm
2017-02-22T13:04:58Z phoe_: oh wait, don't mind me.
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2017-02-22T13:14:17Z phoe_: jackdaniel: <3
2017-02-22T13:14:22Z phoe_: our savior
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2017-02-22T13:17:44Z byte1: hi! i am make this definition of a constant
2017-02-22T13:17:47Z byte1: (defconstant +and+ '^)
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2017-02-22T13:18:05Z byte1: and i would like to be able to use ^ instead of and
2017-02-22T13:18:07Z byte1: for example
2017-02-22T13:18:21Z byte1: (^ T nil) instead of (and T nil)
2017-02-22T13:18:26Z byte1: is it that possible?
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2017-02-22T13:25:12Z Xach: byte1: that is not how forms are evaluated
2017-02-22T13:25:25Z Xach: byte1: you could use defmacro instead.
2017-02-22T13:25:42Z Xach: (defmacro ^ (&rest forms) `(and ,@forms)) for example
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2017-02-22T14:13:08Z phoe_: geez
2017-02-22T14:13:20Z phoe_: does he know the difference between vars and function calls in CL?
2017-02-22T14:13:24Z phoe_: I don't think so.
2017-02-22T14:13:40Z phoe_: ...also, uh, why does he want to use ^ instead of &
2017-02-22T14:14:00Z malice`: phoe_: who?
2017-02-22T14:14:11Z phoe_: malice`: byte1 above
2017-02-22T14:14:24Z malice`: joined too late to see him then
2017-02-22T14:14:27Z _death: guessing because it's similar to "∧", which is the symbol usually used for conjunction in logic
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2017-02-22T14:18:11Z phoe_: _death: using the symbol |V|
2017-02-22T14:18:17Z phoe_: for alternative will be weird
2017-02-22T14:18:47Z _death: phoe: so use "∨" :)
2017-02-22T14:19:18Z malice`: (null {}) => T ; empty set is false
2017-02-22T14:19:35Z dlowe: unicode has the logical symbols available. seems like you could use those pretty easily
2017-02-22T14:19:38Z dlowe: sounds terrible, though
2017-02-22T14:19:57Z dlowe: I bet emacs has a mode that turns and/or/etc into their symbol equivalents
2017-02-22T14:20:09Z _death: yes, like pretty-lambda etc.
2017-02-22T14:20:30Z _death: (there's also pretty-greek)
2017-02-22T14:20:58Z dlowe: I wonder how far you could push the symbol-to-glyph overlays and what a program would look like
2017-02-22T14:21:20Z dlowe: It'd look like APL, I guess.
2017-02-22T14:22:27Z _death: I use pretty-lambda for some years.. chose not to push it further
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2017-02-22T14:26:13Z shka: phoe_: don't judge so fast
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2017-02-22T14:28:13Z phoe_: shka: defconstant creates a variable
2017-02-22T14:28:29Z phoe_: and you can't put a variable in a place of a function in a function call.
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2017-02-22T14:28:42Z shka: phoe_: you seriously think i dont know that?
2017-02-22T14:28:54Z phoe_: shka: of course you know that.
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2017-02-22T14:29:03Z phoe_: but that's why I judged so fast.
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2017-02-22T14:33:53Z phoe_: clhs with-output-to-string
2017-02-22T14:33:53Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm
2017-02-22T14:33:59Z phoe_: This page mentions a variable STRING.
2017-02-22T14:34:13Z phoe_: Where is this variable declared/used?
2017-02-22T14:34:18Z phoe_: I don't see it in Syntax.
2017-02-22T14:35:06Z jdz: phoe_: the one "produced" in string-form line?
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2017-02-22T14:36:52Z dlowe: phoe_: It's in the "arguments and values" section, presumably as a value and not an argument.
2017-02-22T14:37:13Z dlowe: one derived from the argument string-form
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2017-02-22T14:39:23Z phoe_: dlowe: okay.
2017-02-22T14:39:29Z phoe_: there's a variable called "string".
2017-02-22T14:39:41Z dlowe: there's a value called "string"
2017-02-22T14:39:41Z malice`: phoe_:  string-form---a form or nil; if non-nil, evaluated to produce **string**.
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2017-02-22T14:39:52Z phoe_: Oh that thing.
2017-02-22T14:40:01Z phoe_: This is one weird place to declare a variable.
2017-02-22T14:40:03Z phoe_: Right.
2017-02-22T14:40:11Z dlowe: that's because it's not a variable
2017-02-22T14:40:25Z phoe_: heh, correct
2017-02-22T14:40:32Z phoe_: This is one weird place to declare a value.
2017-02-22T14:40:49Z dlowe: in the "arguments and values" section?
2017-02-22T14:41:16Z phoe_: Yes.
2017-02-22T14:41:24Z phoe_: At the end of another sentence.
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2017-02-22T14:42:06Z dlowe: well, it's also in the line below.
2017-02-22T14:42:23Z dlowe: one has to come before the other.
2017-02-22T14:42:53Z phoe_: Yes, but still.
2017-02-22T14:43:04Z phoe_: It took me four tries to get the meaning of this.
2017-02-22T14:43:09Z dlowe: it's awkward, no doubt.
2017-02-22T14:43:38Z phoe_: Also the Side Effects.
2017-02-22T14:43:47Z phoe_: Shouldn't it be, "The string, if supplied, is modified."
2017-02-22T14:44:07Z phoe_: because it's hard to modify something that wasn't supplied
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2017-02-22T14:49:25Z jdz: Ever heard of side-effects?
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2017-02-22T14:50:18Z phoe_: jdz: uh, you know what I mean
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2017-02-22T14:52:05Z jdz: Yes; but then gain -- the string is always modified, be it supplied or not...
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2017-02-22T14:53:20Z jdz: That could be relevant if one tries to pass the string around.
2017-02-22T14:54:03Z phoe_: jdz: fine
2017-02-22T14:54:09Z phoe_: if I supply a null string-form
2017-02-22T14:54:13Z phoe_: then *which* string is modified?
2017-02-22T14:54:17Z dlowe: "string"
2017-02-22T14:54:39Z dlowe: The awkward "string" value
2017-02-22T14:55:02Z phoe_: dlowe: the "string" value is only produced when a non-nil string-form happens.
2017-02-22T14:55:17Z phoe_: when I provide a NIL as string-form, then which "string" is modified? the one that wasn't produced?
2017-02-22T14:55:56Z phoe_: How may a man mutate that which was not created?
2017-02-22T14:56:16Z dlowe: ok, you're right. *shrug*
2017-02-22T14:57:52Z jdz: As I read it: providing NIL is the same as not providing the string-form, if one wants to supply ELEMENT-TYPE.
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2017-02-22T14:58:23Z dlowe: That is not freed which can eternal be in the permanent generation, and with strange aeons even the collector may be freed.
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2017-02-22T14:59:59Z jdz: Yes, it does not specify that a fresh STRING is being created.
2017-02-22T15:00:59Z phoe_: "If no string is provided, then with-output-from-string produces a stream that accepts characters and returns a string of the indicated element-type."
2017-02-22T15:01:11Z phoe_: "...and returns a FRESH string of the..."
2017-02-22T15:01:20Z phoe_: I'd like the change to be like that.
2017-02-22T15:01:28Z phoe_: But then again - this is actually changing the *meaning* of the spec.
2017-02-22T15:01:46Z phoe_: Right now, it looks like returning a preallocated string is fine.
2017-02-22T15:02:06Z jdz: I personally would not want to use an implementation where I could not nest WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING...
2017-02-22T15:02:11Z phoe_: so (progn "foo" (with-output-to-string ...)) can return the first "foo" string.
2017-02-22T15:02:16Z phoe_: jdz: yes, sure thing, I know.
2017-02-22T15:02:31Z phoe_: but I'm talking about what the spec says, not what is sane and useful.
2017-02-22T15:02:57Z jdz: Well, it's always nice to remember that the spec was written by humans.
2017-02-22T15:03:20Z phoe_: I remember it.
2017-02-22T15:03:36Z phoe_: But at the same time, I don't want to change the things it can mean.
2017-02-22T15:03:45Z phoe_: Not just what it means, but also what it *can* mean.
2017-02-22T15:04:01Z dlowe: Part of the value of a new spec layout is that you can keep the spec as is and append notes to it.
2017-02-22T15:04:06Z dlowe: Most of the value, really
2017-02-22T15:04:09Z phoe_: ^
2017-02-22T15:04:17Z phoe_: I want to add the second Editor Notes here.
2017-02-22T15:04:26Z phoe_: Like, the second occurrence of Editor Notes.
2017-02-22T15:04:30Z phoe_: In the whole CLUS.
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2017-02-22T15:56:54Z phoe_ finishes work on CLUS chapter Streams. Will push it upstream later today.
2017-02-22T15:58:41Z ogamita: broadcast-stream or echo-stream?
2017-02-22T16:00:23Z phoe_: ogamita: all of them.
2017-02-22T16:00:29Z phoe_: but uh
2017-02-22T16:00:31Z phoe_: I guess
2017-02-22T16:00:37Z phoe_: output-stream
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2017-02-22T16:33:25Z malice: Hi all! I want to use Roswell to test my library.
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2017-02-22T16:34:04Z malice: I want to test it across different implementations and want to quickload my package and test it. I want to do using the same interface for all implementations.
2017-02-22T16:34:19Z malice: Is there some tutorial or do you know how to do that?
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2017-02-22T16:34:39Z malice: I'm trying with .ros script, but it's both kind of ugly, and does not work for me - and debugging it looks tiresome...
2017-02-22T16:37:44Z Xach: I think there are roswell users, but I have not noticed many of them ehre
2017-02-22T16:37:59Z Xach: Maybe there is a reddit, stack overflow, or twitter community that would answer things?
2017-02-22T16:38:16Z malice: I actually see some tutorial on their github that I have overlooked, so I will try that.
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2017-02-22T16:44:10Z phoe_ pushes Streams.
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2017-02-22T16:49:16Z easye: phoe_: URL please, when published.
2017-02-22T16:50:06Z phoe_: easye: the URL is always the same, http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus. it won't be visible for 15 more minutes though as the script only pulls changes every full hour.
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2017-02-22T16:50:49Z phoe_: minion: tell easye about clus
2017-02-22T16:50:50Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clus''.
2017-02-22T16:50:58Z phoe_: I need this fixed.
2017-02-22T16:51:41Z Xach: you can add http://cliki.net/clus and minion will know
2017-02-22T16:52:05Z oleo: minion: add http://cliki.net/clus
2017-02-22T16:52:05Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
2017-02-22T16:52:11Z oleo: lol
2017-02-22T16:52:12Z oleo: hahhaah
2017-02-22T16:52:46Z oleo: minion: help
2017-02-22T16:52:46Z minion: There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms".
2017-02-22T16:53:19Z Xach: I mean, go to that url and edit the wiki
2017-02-22T16:53:21Z oleo: minion: add http://cliki.net/clus"
2017-02-22T16:53:22Z minion: add httpcliki.netclus": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/add%20httpcliki.netclus\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 44..
2017-02-22T16:53:26Z Xach: oleo: stop.
2017-02-22T16:53:40Z oleo: minion: add "http://cliki.net/clus"
2017-02-22T16:53:40Z minion: add "httpcliki.netclus": An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/add%20\"httpcliki.netclus\"?source" contains illegal character #\" at position 27..
2017-02-22T16:53:49Z oleo: hmm
2017-02-22T16:53:51Z oleo: doesn't work
2017-02-22T16:53:59Z beach: oleo: You meed to /msg minion
2017-02-22T16:54:11Z beach: oleo: Not expose that stuff to everyone.
2017-02-22T16:54:20Z oleo: ah ok
2017-02-22T16:54:39Z oleo: minion: tell easye about clus
2017-02-22T16:54:40Z minion: Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``clus''.
2017-02-22T16:54:45Z oleo: wth
2017-02-22T16:54:59Z Xach: oleo: the "database" in this case is cliki.
2017-02-22T16:55:13Z Xach: oleo: if you edit cliki (and you can, it is a wiki), minion will be updated.
2017-02-22T16:55:28Z oleo: oww
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2017-02-22T16:55:35Z oleo: that's why ok ok
2017-02-22T16:55:48Z oleo: didn't know that.....
2017-02-22T16:57:48Z beach: minion: Please tell oleo about clus.
2017-02-22T16:57:48Z minion: oleo: direct your attention towards clus: CLUS is the Common Lisp UlstraSpec, a modern and corrected specification of the Common Lisp language and related material. See http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus for the current state of the project
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2017-02-22T16:59:24Z phoe_: Xach: ooooh
2017-02-22T16:59:26Z phoe_: wait
2017-02-22T16:59:29Z phoe_: I can add it to CLIKI.
2017-02-22T16:59:41Z beach: I added it directly to minion.
2017-02-22T16:59:54Z Xach: adding to cliki is also good
2017-02-22T17:00:27Z beach: Last time I looked, minion was unable to parse the new Cliki format, giving an error message every time.
2017-02-22T17:00:28Z phoe_: beach: message me the syntax.
2017-02-22T17:00:39Z phoe_: I'll most likely need it someday.
2017-02-22T17:00:48Z beach: phoe_: Why me?  Ask minion?  I did.
2017-02-22T17:01:00Z phoe_: oh, um
2017-02-22T17:01:14Z phoe_: ...
2017-02-22T17:01:15Z phoe_: dumb be
2017-02-22T17:01:18Z phoe_: dumb me*
2017-02-22T17:01:22Z phoe_: "adding terms" is right there
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2017-02-22T17:03:15Z Xach remembers when pcl was added with a date to make it clear when in the future it was coming out
2017-02-22T17:03:58Z beach: minion: Please tell me about Flexichain.
2017-02-22T17:03:58Z minion: Flexichain: No definition was found in the first 5 lines of http://www.cliki.net/Flexichain
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2017-02-22T17:04:16Z phoe_: Well, works.
2017-02-22T17:04:22Z phoe_: It at least mentions there's a cliki page.
2017-02-22T17:04:33Z beach: Apparently, the Cliki syntax was modified, and the minion maintainer was not happy with it, vowing not to teach minion how to parse it.
2017-02-22T17:05:14Z beach: It probably says something about our community.
2017-02-22T17:05:45Z phoe_: easye: it's live.
2017-02-22T17:05:46Z dlowe: as far as I can tell, it says that our community is totally normal
2017-02-22T17:06:26Z phoe_: It's weird, but I expect to have the full dictionaries parsed and somewhat fixed before March.
2017-02-22T17:06:31Z beach: dlowe: Sure, with the exact definition of "normal", i.e., "conforming to the norm".
2017-02-22T17:07:11Z beach: I for one prefer a community that is a wee bit better than the norm.
2017-02-22T17:07:25Z Bike: "normal, and the norm sucks"
2017-02-22T17:07:49Z phoe_: that's a low norm we have there
2017-02-22T17:08:54Z beach: phoe_: Anyway, if you prefer for people to see that error message from minion, you can remove the term I added and instead create a Cliki page.
2017-02-22T17:09:13Z phoe_: beach: thank you, I'll pass.
2017-02-22T17:09:17Z phoe_: minion: tell minion about clus
2017-02-22T17:09:18Z minion: minion: please look at clus: CLUS is the Common Lisp UlstraSpec, a modern and corrected specification of the Common Lisp language and related material. See http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus for the current state of the project
2017-02-22T17:10:34Z phoe_: haha
2017-02-22T17:10:46Z phoe_: I love how the dictionary for chapter Structures looks
2017-02-22T17:11:04Z phoe_: just a single 47kB text file - DEFSTRUCT
2017-02-22T17:11:25Z fouric: O.o
2017-02-22T17:11:33Z fouric: phoe_: i just took a look at CLUS
2017-02-22T17:11:37Z fouric: it looks...really really cool
2017-02-22T17:11:42Z fouric: *and* useful!
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2017-02-22T17:12:57Z phoe_: fouric: it's still without concepts and glossary, not hyperlinked properly/enough, pretty bug-ridden and unpolished
2017-02-22T17:13:00Z Bike: sidebar still isn't working though. o well
2017-02-22T17:13:08Z Bike: probably the biggest doku i've ever seen
2017-02-22T17:13:08Z phoe_: Bike: it won't work for a while.
2017-02-22T17:13:26Z phoe_: the links on the sidebar will link to chapters, and I'm not doing chapters until I've done dictionaries.
2017-02-22T17:13:40Z fouric: phoe_: so it's exactly like some operating systems i've used
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2017-02-22T17:13:46Z phoe_: fouric: still, I'm glad you find the project useful regardless.
2017-02-22T17:13:49Z phoe_: fouric: xD
2017-02-22T17:13:54Z fouric: :P
2017-02-22T17:13:59Z fouric: (1) there's stuff *there*
2017-02-22T17:14:06Z Bike: so, what, you're onto printer now? almost done
2017-02-22T17:14:08Z fouric: (2) there's potential for a lot more stuff
2017-02-22T17:14:16Z Bike: soon you will learn about all the system construction functions nobody uses
2017-02-22T17:14:35Z fouric: (3) you had a neat idea for a code example format that looks pretty and i like it
2017-02-22T17:14:38Z phoe_: Bike: printer? uh
2017-02-22T17:14:41Z phoe_: I've finished sequences
2017-02-22T17:14:58Z Bike: oh, it looks like you're done with streams from the todo
2017-02-22T17:15:03Z phoe_: and streams
2017-02-22T17:15:04Z phoe_: yes
2017-02-22T17:15:15Z phoe_: well, system construction is actually used
2017-02-22T17:15:15Z Bike: oh, maybe you're not doing them in order.
2017-02-22T17:15:22Z phoe_: Bike: oh, I am doing them in order
2017-02-22T17:15:26Z phoe_: except it's alphabetical order
2017-02-22T17:15:50Z phoe_: also about nobody using them, d'oh - I can see #clasp struggling with COMPILE-FILE and LOAD all the time
2017-02-22T17:15:53Z phoe_: so people actually use them
2017-02-22T17:15:58Z phoe_: (so other people don't need to)
2017-02-22T17:16:02Z Bike: i meant, like, ed.
2017-02-22T17:16:09Z Bike: obviously people use compile-file.
2017-02-22T17:16:16Z phoe_: ed is a weird function.
2017-02-22T17:16:18Z phoe_: clhs ed
2017-02-22T17:16:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm
2017-02-22T17:16:37Z beach: It's in the "environment" chapter.
2017-02-22T17:16:40Z Bike: whoops
2017-02-22T17:16:44Z phoe_: yes.
2017-02-22T17:16:47Z beach: That chapter has nothing to do with environments by the way.
2017-02-22T17:16:54Z beach: Fooled me a few times.
2017-02-22T17:17:01Z phoe_: yes, haha
2017-02-22T17:17:26Z Bike: if you're doing structures, there's that weird ambiguity with :type that came up here a couple days back
2017-02-22T17:17:41Z phoe_: Bike: hm?
2017-02-22T17:17:56Z Bike: the arguments part disagrees with the description part
2017-02-22T17:18:10Z phoe_: Bike: please file an issue at https://github.com/phoe/clus-data
2017-02-22T17:18:35Z Bike: uh ok
2017-02-22T17:18:38Z phoe_: and it's not about telling you to STFU, since I don't want you to to be quiet about it
2017-02-22T17:18:45Z phoe_: it's about me being unable to forget it this way
2017-02-22T17:18:59Z Bike: "file an issue on my project" would be a weird way to tell me to shut up
2017-02-22T17:19:16Z phoe_ nod
2017-02-22T17:19:22Z dlowe: I'll try that the next time someone pisses me off.
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2017-02-22T17:22:11Z phoe_: Bike: or even better
2017-02-22T17:22:12Z phoe_: http://www.cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications
2017-02-22T17:22:25Z phoe_: since *this* is a comprehensive and much much more complete list
2017-02-22T17:22:39Z Bike: don't have an account
2017-02-22T17:22:58Z phoe_: Bike: neither do I
2017-02-22T17:23:16Z phoe_: just create a new page with a proper title, you don't need an account for that.
2017-02-22T17:23:21Z Bike: oh i can still edit, how nice
2017-02-22T17:23:24Z phoe_: cliki is freely editable.
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2017-02-22T17:28:35Z Bike: ok, it's on the page as "defstruct-type".
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2017-02-22T17:29:05Z oleo: does anyone develop closure further ? closure the browser i mean.....
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2017-02-22T17:29:44Z beach: I think someone in #clim expressed an interest a while ago, but I am not sure something really happened.
2017-02-22T17:29:57Z oleo: oh
2017-02-22T17:29:59Z oleo: clim
2017-02-22T17:30:01Z oleo: ups
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2017-02-22T17:30:58Z oleo: hmm, if it worked for all of http that would be nice yes....
2017-02-22T17:31:23Z oleo: you browse some pages and it spouts lots of errors about missing stuff.....
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2017-02-22T17:31:47Z oleo: only works for some old pages
2017-02-22T17:32:00Z beach: Do you want to help improve it?
2017-02-22T17:32:06Z oleo: and even then it can't handle many things properly
2017-02-22T17:32:08Z oleo: not right now no
2017-02-22T17:32:22Z oleo: i'd not be able to anyway....
2017-02-22T17:32:33Z oleo: that's beyond my capabilities for a while
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2017-02-22T17:33:21Z oleo: btw, i'm trying to setup a new system beach, i screwed my old one......
2017-02-22T17:33:33Z beach: A web browser seemed like a reasonable project at the time, but now there are so many standards to support and for which one needs to track updates.
2017-02-22T17:34:04Z oleo: exactly
2017-02-22T17:34:04Z beach: oleo: Sorry to hear that.  Good luck.
2017-02-22T17:35:09Z beach: Maybe this is the one project where I would think that using FFI to import functionality that we do not yet have natively would be a good idea.
2017-02-22T17:35:28Z oleo: right there are so many libs out there helping with parsing that stuff etc....
2017-02-22T17:35:49Z beach: Well, the HTML parser is actually very innovative.
2017-02-22T17:35:51Z oleo: you just need to bind them and enable them in the browser, giving the option to disable or totally discard them too probably...
2017-02-22T17:36:08Z beach: ... in the way it handles traditional but incorrect HTML, which is common on web pages.
2017-02-22T17:36:25Z oleo: right
2017-02-22T17:36:42Z oleo: the webpages themselves don't stick to standards.....
2017-02-22T17:36:58Z oleo: i don't know why it should have a strickt notion of stuff anyway....
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2017-02-22T17:38:00Z beach: oleo: Already, implementing all the elements of a standard is hard.  Figuring out exactly what violations of a standard to support and what to do with them is way much harder.
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2017-02-22T17:39:12Z oleo: ya
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2017-02-22T17:41:45Z oleo: do you think a start from scratch would be better beach ?
2017-02-22T17:42:03Z beach: I don't know.  I haven't looked at the code.
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2017-02-22T17:42:17Z oleo: hmm ok
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2017-02-22T17:43:05Z beach: gilberth is an excellent hacker, but sometimes his code is a bit hard to follow, in particular when he doesn't document it, or when he writes his comments in German.
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2017-02-22T17:45:10Z oleo: implementing the standard on the go would be nice....
2017-02-22T17:45:50Z Denommus` is now known as Denommus
2017-02-22T17:45:55Z oleo: like get the standards and implement one on the go for the system to use....and if the standards get changed upon registering a change update the implementation of the standards locally etc...
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2017-02-22T18:38:02Z eudoxia: minion: do i have any outstanding memos
2017-02-22T18:38:03Z minion: you speak nonsense
2017-02-22T18:38:07Z eudoxia: cool
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2017-02-22T19:05:15Z phoe: minion: memo for eudoxia: this is an outstanding memo
2017-02-22T19:05:16Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell eudoxia when he/she/it next speaks.
2017-02-22T19:05:38Z eudoxia: oy
2017-02-22T19:05:38Z minion: eudoxia, memo from phoe: this is an outstanding memo
2017-02-22T19:06:02Z phoe: oy
2017-02-22T19:06:19Z phoe: Bike: you haven't filed an issue
2017-02-22T19:06:29Z Bike: because i put it on cliki instead, like you said?
2017-02-22T19:06:36Z phoe: oh wait
2017-02-22T19:06:37Z phoe: correct
2017-02-22T19:06:43Z phoe needs to get a brain replacement
2017-02-22T19:06:58Z akkad has one only slightly used
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2017-02-22T20:09:22Z Xach: can anyone figure out this failure? http://report.quicklisp.org/2017-02-22/failure-report/trivial-ws.html#trivial-ws-client
2017-02-22T20:09:32Z Xach: it's new today, but i can't see that any component parts have changed. i'm boggled.
2017-02-22T20:11:16Z phoe: Xach: what's expected to be in the package AS?
2017-02-22T20:11:32Z Xach: phoe: I think cl-async
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2017-02-22T20:39:52Z varjag: what's the most popular testing lib/framework out there
2017-02-22T20:39:53Z mood: Xach: trivial-ws-client depends on websocket-driver, which used to depend on cl-async. It stopped doing so 3 days ago
2017-02-22T20:40:17Z Xach: oho! tusen tack!
2017-02-22T20:40:26Z Xach: mood: thank you v. much!
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2017-02-22T20:40:31Z mood: np :)
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2017-02-22T20:43:33Z phoe: mood: <3
2017-02-22T20:43:42Z jasom: varjag: FiveAM probably
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2017-02-22T20:44:28Z jasom: varjag: there are a *lot* of testing libraries for lisp, so I can't be sure.
2017-02-22T20:46:49Z phoe: varjag: fiveam for big things, 1am for small things
2017-02-22T20:46:53Z phoe: I really like 1am though
2017-02-22T20:46:56Z phoe: since I can comprehend it
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2017-02-22T20:48:17Z Xach: now, who works on ceramic?
2017-02-22T20:48:22Z Xach hopes it can be fixed soon
2017-02-22T20:48:40Z varjag: ok, thanks guys
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2017-02-22T20:50:57Z jasom: TIL there is a 2am.  1am is a stripped down fiveAM, and 2am is 1am plus some extra features...
2017-02-22T20:51:21Z phoe: counting back to 5
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2017-02-22T20:55:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like should-test
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2017-02-22T20:58:14Z axion: I like prove
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2017-02-22T20:59:12Z drmeister: Hey - does anyone use docker and would have some time to answer some questions?  I'm trying to build and deploy Clasp as a docker container and I have a few questions.
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2017-02-22T21:01:54Z TruePika: minion: any messages?
2017-02-22T21:01:54Z minion: you speak nonsense
2017-02-22T21:02:14Z TruePika: I assume not, aside from one thing /away caught
2017-02-22T21:02:35Z jasom: drmeister: I use docker
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2017-02-22T21:03:09Z TruePika: ...which is just a message "^" which isn't in my scrollback
2017-02-22T21:03:25Z TruePika: phoe: Recall what the "^" was referring to?
2017-02-22T21:04:01Z TruePika: probably beach's answer about CLOS
2017-02-22T21:04:09Z jasom: TruePika 2017-02-21 00:43:17     beach   phoe_: You need an instance, but you can use the class prototype, so you don't need to make a new instance.
2017-02-22T21:04:36Z TruePika: thanks
2017-02-22T21:05:04Z jasom: (timestamps are UTC-800)
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2017-02-22T21:05:26Z TruePika: PST, which is my local anyway :)
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2017-02-22T21:07:44Z jasom: TruePika: near Canoga Park, judging by your ip
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2017-02-22T21:09:34Z alecigne: Hi all. Would you know a library for Common Lisp that I could use to write text on image files (jpeg or png for example)? I use SBCL. Thanks :)
2017-02-22T21:09:36Z TruePika: jasom: close enough, but its inaccurate
2017-02-22T21:09:54Z jasom: TruePika: I'll take anything between Thousand Oaks and Glendale
2017-02-22T21:10:22Z TruePika: West Hills, but that's as much detail as I'm going to give
2017-02-22T21:10:28Z jasom is in Santa Barbara, so that's all "sort of near LA" to him
2017-02-22T21:11:28Z TruePika: so, how about this rain?
2017-02-22T21:12:12Z jasom: our reservoir went from 10% to 40% in under two weeks :)
2017-02-22T21:13:16Z phoe: alecigne: define write text on image files
2017-02-22T21:13:19Z phoe: you mean like, watermark?
2017-02-22T21:14:22Z TruePika: I'm not sure there's a single library for watermarking, but it should be possible with a font render library and an image access library
2017-02-22T21:14:35Z pjb: Or like Xach's web application?
2017-02-22T21:14:56Z alecigne: phoe: yes, watermarking
2017-02-22T21:15:36Z TruePika: or wait, did I ever get an imagemagick system set up?
2017-02-22T21:15:36Z Xach: alecigne: When I wanted to do that, I generated a watermark file in lisp, and combined it by calling imagemagick.
2017-02-22T21:15:46Z TruePika checks code
2017-02-22T21:15:51Z Xach: alecigne: i used lisp to get the proper dimensions to pass to imagemagick
2017-02-22T21:16:05Z Xach: alecigne: i used a system like that to make hundreds of thousands of watermarked graphics on the fly, no issues.
2017-02-22T21:16:18Z TruePika: nope, just calls to `convert`
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2017-02-22T21:16:41Z alecigne: Xach: Okay, I might just use imagemagick then :)
2017-02-22T21:16:45Z Xach: for very very large files, i found imagemagick too slow, so i wrote a small C program that combines images (including watermarks). it has a somewhat unfriendly command-line, though.
2017-02-22T21:16:55Z Xach: alecigne: good luck!
2017-02-22T21:17:03Z TruePika: alecigne: http://pastebin.ca/3770921 is how I "interacted" with it
2017-02-22T21:17:15Z alecigne: Xach: thanks :)
2017-02-22T21:17:17Z TruePika: (specific example is removing alpha layers)
2017-02-22T21:17:47Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/wfcomp is the little dumb compositor
2017-02-22T21:17:48Z alecigne: Thank you TruePika, I'm keeping that
2017-02-22T21:18:46Z TruePika: of note, you need to have e.g. "-alpha" and "remove" as seperate entries in the list, so they bind to consecutive ARGV (versus having an argument that contains a space)
2017-02-22T21:19:06Z TruePika: I messed up at first
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2017-02-22T21:24:02Z alecigne: I was looking at opticl today, but I don't know if it can composite (not talking about text here)
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2017-02-22T21:24:46Z TruePika: well, you can always composite yourself if you can access pixel data as an array
2017-02-22T21:25:24Z alecigne: That's what I was thinking but it might be out of my league (I'll look into it though)
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2017-02-22T21:26:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: TruePika, jasom: we should do a Ventura County Lisp meetup
2017-02-22T21:27:03Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm down for it if I can manage child care
2017-02-22T21:27:17Z TruePika: I can't drive D:
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2017-02-22T21:31:40Z Xach: Hmm, Allegro Express takes rather less fiddling to try than I remember from last time. Download and run, no license file or anything.
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2017-02-22T21:39:21Z TruePika: hm, is the slime indentation code written in Lisp?
2017-02-22T21:39:29Z Bike: elisp, i think.
2017-02-22T21:39:46Z TruePika: hm, might try to port it over to CL sometime then
2017-02-22T21:39:55Z jasom: It's a combination of elisp and common lisp
2017-02-22T21:40:20Z TruePika: since I use Vim, I'd been relying on an "inferior" indentation scheme
2017-02-22T21:40:27Z TruePika: (read: not used by most people)
2017-02-22T21:40:29Z jasom: IIRC it queries the connected swank for e.g. argument lisps
2017-02-22T21:41:16Z TruePika: well that could almost certainly be replicated, since code is data and readable
2017-02-22T21:41:18Z jasom: TruePika: https://github.com/ds26gte/scmindent is setup to work with vim I think.  Not as smart as slime but better than vim's lisp mode (which is in turn better than nearly all non-emacs lisp indentors)
2017-02-22T21:41:59Z TruePika: jasom: I normally use whatever Limp uses, which I know is different from the default lisp mode
2017-02-22T21:42:13Z TruePika checks the config directory
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2017-02-22T21:43:34Z TruePika: hm, might just be a reconfigured basic Lisp mode
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2017-02-22T21:44:50Z jasom: TruePika: give emacs/slime/evil-mode a try too, btw.  It's what I use for lisp now.
2017-02-22T21:45:15Z TruePika: I've already attempted it, couldn't get anything to work
2017-02-22T21:45:50Z jasom: :(
2017-02-22T21:45:53Z TruePika: might try it again eventually, but it isn't a very high priority at the moment
2017-02-22T21:46:29Z TruePika: I'm too used to my Limp setup; F12 to go to/from REPL, '\cl' to compile+load file, etc.
2017-02-22T21:48:14Z TruePika: and if emacs doesn't use lock files like #P".*.swp" I have to rewrite lots of .gitignore files
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2017-02-22T21:49:19Z TruePika: ...though, granted, these aren't in repos themselves (partially since I don't know what files need to be ignored in emacs-based setups)
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2017-02-22T21:50:01Z prxq: usually just files with a ~ at the end.
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2017-02-22T21:51:35Z TruePika: meh, I need to reopen this bug with Steam again at some point
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2017-02-22T21:52:09Z TruePika: the client doesn't work nicely on Windows systems without window compositing (esp. Win7 w/o Aero)
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2017-02-22T21:52:31Z TruePika: requiring stuff like ^L to redraw PuTTY sessions
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2017-02-22T21:56:14Z fiddlerwoaroof: I spent some time replicating my slimv setup in evil-mode
2017-02-22T21:56:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: Now, I've more or less switched to emacs+evil mode for everything
2017-02-22T21:58:12Z fiddlerwoaroof: One thing I haven't satisfactorily figured out is how to get paredit-wrap-sexp to wrap from the beginning of the current word, rather than from the cursor
2017-02-22T21:58:35Z TruePika wonders if anyone ever made a map of Vi/Emacs adoption by region...
2017-02-22T21:58:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: I have a sort of hacky solution that sends the cursor forward a word and then back a word before invoking the wrap function, but it's not really ideal
2017-02-22T22:00:26Z TruePika: I don't know of anyone nearby who started with Emacs (and heck, from what I've heard, one of Pierce College's (community college) classes has a section on Vim)
2017-02-22T22:00:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+7A53
2017-02-22T22:00:50Z TruePika: I'll be editing some code, and people will ask if I'm using Vim
2017-02-22T22:01:24Z TruePika: ...though, it might be funny to troll them by using evil mode
2017-02-22T22:01:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, vim seems to have better adoption than emacs these days
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2017-02-22T22:02:04Z antoszka: As far as I remember it always had.
2017-02-22T22:02:22Z antoszka: Which is not surprising given the superior editing model :)
2017-02-22T22:02:28Z antoszka: (as in: mental model)
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2017-02-22T22:02:59Z TruePika: also the lack of finger gymnastics
2017-02-22T22:03:07Z antoszka: Yes, that too.
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2017-02-22T22:03:27Z TruePika: I'm sure emacs would have been fine if I had e.g. a Space Cadet, versus an IBM-compatible
2017-02-22T22:03:31Z varjag: vi, unlike emacs, is really simple and has just two modes:
2017-02-22T22:03:38Z varjag: beep, and ruin everything
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2017-02-22T22:05:08Z antoszka: May the gods of Olymp have mercy on you.
2017-02-22T22:05:23Z TruePika: varjag: sounds like Virus, the Vi implementation used on NAO for config file editing
2017-02-22T22:05:49Z TruePika: I've learned it is easier to just upload config files directly
2017-02-22T22:06:03Z prxq: i don't think that many people use Vi for serious stuff. It's mostly editing config files and stuff.
2017-02-22T22:06:07Z TruePika: (then again, I haven't played NH since 3.4.3 was no longer the latest version)
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2017-02-22T22:07:22Z fiddlerwoaroof: prxq: I'm not really sure, but it's definitely really nice for serious stuff
2017-02-22T22:07:35Z fiddlerwoaroof: If you can spare a couple weeks to get used to it
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2017-02-22T22:08:36Z varjag: prxq: i've seen really hardcore vim users
2017-02-22T22:08:50Z prxq: varjag: i'm not disputing that they exist
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2017-02-22T22:09:58Z varjag: right
2017-02-22T22:14:11Z prxq: I wish there was a decent mode for programming lisp in netbeans.
2017-02-22T22:14:21Z prxq: plugin, I mean.
2017-02-22T22:14:55Z jasom: prxq: that reminds me, I need to work on my geany plugin for lisp; with a little tweaking it could become a netbeans plugin I bet.
2017-02-22T22:16:05Z prxq: jasom: that would be really cool
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2017-02-22T22:18:43Z prxq: although in fairness I'm quite happy with emacs+slime.
2017-02-22T22:19:21Z jasom: prxq: me too, but convincing people to use it is a barrier to lisp adoption IMO
2017-02-22T22:19:33Z antoszka: spacemacs helps
2017-02-22T22:19:34Z jasom: though portacle helps a lot with getting setup (it's magic)
2017-02-22T22:19:44Z antoszka: (at least for vim users)
2017-02-22T22:19:56Z prxq: jasom: you are right
2017-02-22T22:19:59Z antoszka: portacle might ease a bit, too
2017-02-22T22:20:21Z jasom: antoszka: spacemacs felt like an "uncanny valley" to me; to close to vim, but also too far.
2017-02-22T22:20:30Z antoszka: I'm enjoying it.
2017-02-22T22:20:40Z jasom: evil-mode is the first vim mode for emacs I've used that doesn't hit that
2017-02-22T22:20:42Z antoszka: Though I do miss a few vim features I have hardcoded somewhere in my hadns.
2017-02-22T22:20:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: I found that spacemacs has weird edge cases that I don't really enjoy
2017-02-22T22:20:49Z jasom: though even there I had to customize a few things
2017-02-22T22:21:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: Just starting from evil mode and a fairly simple set of keymappings works really well
2017-02-22T22:23:54Z jasom: fiddlerwoaroof: I concur
2017-02-22T22:24:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've even started moving emacs keybindings into vim :)
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2017-02-22T22:27:29Z antoszka: i've always hated the limited non-modal editing possibilities of vim in insert mode
2017-02-22T22:27:40Z antoszka: having full emacs here in evil mode is a blessing
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2017-02-22T22:27:53Z antoszka: and having most of vims grammar at hand is another blessing
2017-02-22T22:28:02Z prxq: If all I knew was netbeans, eclipse, or visual studio, the idea of moving to vi would probably seem utterly ridiculous (slightly less of emacs, but still)
2017-02-22T22:28:29Z TruePika: If all I knew was Visual Studio, I'd have gone insane by now
2017-02-22T22:28:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: prxq: the same thing could be said of Java vs. Lisp
2017-02-22T22:29:05Z TruePika: s/Visual Studio/Java/
2017-02-22T22:29:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, Java is a language designed to be written by code generators
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2017-02-22T22:29:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: Which is, I think, why people get hooked on IDEs
2017-02-22T22:29:59Z prxq: just take debugging, or refactoring, or fixing random stuff vial alt-enter
2017-02-22T22:30:47Z TruePika: fiddlerwoaroof: similar to ecl, but Java instead of C?
2017-02-22T22:31:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: TruePika: yeah
2017-02-22T22:31:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, in that case, just use ABCL
2017-02-22T22:31:14Z TruePika: that...actually explains a lot
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2017-02-22T22:33:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: I did a tiny bit of Android development with Intellij, and I realized that having something to autocomplete the boilerplate almost makes Java a bearable language
2017-02-22T22:33:34Z prxq: fiddlerwoaroof: my impression exactly
2017-02-22T22:34:28Z prxq: without an ide it's a language so crappy as to be completely out of the question. But then - blinkenlights and mouse-driven prgramming make for a phase change
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2017-02-22T22:35:25Z TruePika: I don't understand why it is so widely used, when better alternatives can be developed
2017-02-22T22:35:51Z TruePika: I mean, one of my sisters was taught Java in high school, and she's completly put off programming now
2017-02-22T22:37:08Z TruePika: Pretty much the only selling point for Java is the platform-independant bytecode, but that can be replicated for any language
2017-02-22T22:37:38Z pillton: I mean, one of my sisters was taught math in high school, and she's completely put off math now.
2017-02-22T22:37:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Well, having the platform gives languages like Clojure a headstart
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2017-02-22T22:38:35Z TruePika: the platform itself, while it has some issues, is fine compared to the language
2017-02-22T22:38:44Z aeth: You don't even need platform-independent bytecode, just compile a language to CL. It's large and capable enough, and then you have access to all of Quicklisp.
2017-02-22T22:39:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, but "all of Quicklisp" is a drop in the bucket compared to what's available on the JVM
2017-02-22T22:39:11Z TruePika: aeth: The main issue with CL is the number of different implementations there are
2017-02-22T22:39:26Z aeth: Afaik, though, the problem with Java isn't the language (mostly... it does have some verbosity issues), it's that Java is the language that was taking off right when design pattern overuse was taking off.
2017-02-22T22:39:32Z aeth: So Java is the FactoryFactoryFactory language
2017-02-22T22:40:08Z prxq: TruePika: the arsenal of libraries is also a huge selling point.
2017-02-22T22:40:33Z pjb: aeth: https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition
2017-02-22T22:40:42Z TruePika: prxq: nowadays, but that's partially because of the large number of devs that use it
2017-02-22T22:40:48Z aeth: prxq: Most languages have access to wrapped C libraries, though.
2017-02-22T22:40:56Z TruePika: positive feedback loop
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2017-02-22T22:41:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: Also, you get things like a GC that is well-tested and that people have spent millions of dollars on
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2017-02-22T22:46:41Z prxq: Lisp GC aren't bad at all
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2017-02-22T22:48:01Z foom: prxq: disagree.
2017-02-22T22:48:18Z prxq: on GC quality?
2017-02-22T22:48:23Z foom: yes.
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2017-02-22T22:56:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: The main problem is that they don't really reflect the state of the art anymore, as far as I'm aware
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2017-02-22T23:16:05Z TruePika: ...
2017-02-22T23:16:22Z TruePika: that was an odd sequence of events
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2017-02-22T23:24:00Z Xach: foom: in general, or sbcl's?
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2017-02-22T23:31:01Z foom: Xach: well, I have lots of experience with sbcl's being non-optimal. CCL's I have less experience with; it might be at the very least a better-working stop-the-world single-threaded generational gc. (I don't know). But, either way, that's still far from what anyone would call a good GC these days.
2017-02-22T23:34:01Z pjb: I'm still have to encounter a situation where the particular gc algorithm is a problem.
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2017-02-22T23:34:42Z fiddlerwoaroof: I suspect it would be places where latency is the most important consideration
2017-02-22T23:34:55Z pillton: Then why would you be allocating garbage?
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2017-02-22T23:35:12Z foom: Reading about the huge advanced made in Go's GC implementation over a few releases can give a pretty nice picture of what a modern GC can be expected to do.
2017-02-22T23:35:19Z foom: s/advanced/advances/
2017-02-22T23:35:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: foom: from what I understand, Go's gc isn't really "good" so much as it's been tuned for a very specific set of uses
2017-02-22T23:38:12Z libreman: Is there any better way to interact with couchdb than clouchdb? It seems to contain a lot of bugs and the code quality is also quite poor.
2017-02-22T23:38:41Z libreman: And chillax doesn't seem to have a option to create views from within lisp.
2017-02-22T23:38:53Z foom: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not going to argue about the definition of "good", but, let's just say it has a lot of goodness in it.
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2017-02-22T23:39:42Z drmeister: Hey folks - I thought I'd toss this out if anyone is interested and has free time for a little Common Lisp project.
2017-02-22T23:40:29Z drmeister: Clasp's compiler doesn't currently signal warnings for unknown special variables or functions - nor does it match calls to lambda lists.
2017-02-22T23:41:15Z drmeister: If you or anyone you know might be interested in beefing up this aspect of Clasp's Common Lisp compiler (which runs Cleavir) - I'd love to talk with you.
2017-02-22T23:41:46Z drmeister: Nice error messages and warnings would be really helpful rather than discovering problems at runtime.
2017-02-22T23:41:49Z Bike: you can do variables now...
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2017-02-22T23:42:56Z Bike: cleavir already signals both of those, you just want it to assume things about missing variables/warnings. with functions that involves waiting for the compilation unit, but variables can be immediate if you just warn in the handler
2017-02-22T23:43:04Z drmeister: Yeah - I thought it would be a package deal - immediate payback for variables.
2017-02-22T23:43:27Z drmeister: The calls and lambda lists are a more complicated issue though - correct?
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2017-02-22T23:46:12Z Bike: yeah
2017-02-22T23:46:14Z raydeejay: I started reading Communicating Sequential Processes and I'm trying to implement the first examples in CL... does this look sound?
2017-02-22T23:46:15Z raydeejay: (defun VMS () (prefix 'coin (prefix 'choc (lambda (x) (funcall (VMS) x)))))
2017-02-22T23:46:39Z Bike: it would actually warn now if there's an explicit declaim ftype, but declaim ftype doesn't work on clasp
2017-02-22T23:46:48Z Bike: inferring would be a little harder but not too bad
2017-02-22T23:47:08Z Bike: variables is like a two-line change though
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2017-02-22T23:48:08Z drmeister: Ok, well - everybody stand down then.
2017-02-22T23:49:32Z drmeister: For variables it's in the handler-bind here?
2017-02-22T23:50:11Z drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339741
2017-02-22T23:50:19Z drmeister: Basically uncomment the warning?
2017-02-22T23:50:59Z drmeister: Uh
2017-02-22T23:51:34Z Bike: well, you might want to make the warning clearer, like "found an unbound variable, assuming it's special" kind of thing, but yeah essentially
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2017-02-22T23:51:46Z drmeister: Ok
2017-02-22T23:53:35Z Xach: hello drmeister!!
2017-02-22T23:54:08Z Xach: i am a-wrasslin with all implementations today, and their treatment of DIRECTORY and symlinks (which might be dead). does clasp copy ecl in its directory interface?
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2017-02-23T00:00:47Z drmeister: Hi xach
2017-02-23T00:01:04Z drmeister: Could you elaborate on what you mean by "directory interface"?
2017-02-23T00:01:40Z Xach: drmeister: I mean the standard cl:directory function, which is almost always augmented by implementations with new arguments.
2017-02-23T00:05:11Z drmeister: I think I had to implement that function on my own.
2017-02-23T00:05:27Z drmeister: I'm running some tests
2017-02-23T00:05:55Z Xach: drmeister: Ok. I'm curious about two things - is there a way to not resolve symlinks? and what happens to dead symlinks?
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2017-02-23T00:07:25Z drmeister: I can't answer those questions off the top of my head. But here's an example of the differences between ECL and Clasp...
2017-02-23T00:07:37Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/21QbhWL9/
2017-02-23T00:07:40Z Xach: ok. i can't answer them either, because i don't have clasp handy.
2017-02-23T00:09:00Z drmeister: Clasp is resolving symlinks  (eg: /etc -> /private/etc)
2017-02-23T00:09:19Z drmeister: and dead symlinks ...
2017-02-23T00:09:53Z Xach: resolving symlinks is standard behavior
2017-02-23T00:10:20Z Xach: but in my case, i need to go against that standard behavior, and most (maybe all?) implementations enable that.
2017-02-23T00:11:21Z drmeister: And dead symlinks look like a file with the symlink name
2017-02-23T00:11:22Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/FxLwZck0/
2017-02-23T00:11:29Z drmeister: b -> a is a dead symlink
2017-02-23T00:11:57Z drmeister: How do you specify to go against the standard behavior?
2017-02-23T00:12:10Z drmeister: Does ECL have an option to do that?
2017-02-23T00:12:40Z Xach: drmeister: it varies by implementation. on sbcl, it's :resolve-symlinks nil. on ecl, it's the same.
2017-02-23T00:12:42Z drmeister: Yes - I copy ECL's approach
2017-02-23T00:12:43Z drmeister: mask &key (resolve-symlinks t) &allow-other-keys
2017-02-23T00:12:57Z drmeister: This is clasp's directory lambda list:   (mask &key (resolve-symlinks t) &allow-other-keys)
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2017-02-23T00:14:27Z drmeister: Yes - clasp pays attention to the :resolve-symlinks argument and acts accordingly.
2017-02-23T00:17:17Z Xach: hmm, ecl 16.1.2 at least isn't behaving as i'd expect.
2017-02-23T00:17:22Z drmeister: Clasp may have a problem in that it returns /private/etc for (directory "/*")    where ECL doesn't
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2017-02-23T00:18:16Z Xach: drmeister: if you do (directory "/etc/*.*" :resolve-symlinks nil) do you get ("/private/etc/..." ...) or ("/etc/..." ...)?
2017-02-23T00:18:36Z Xach: I'd expect the latter.
2017-02-23T00:18:49Z Xach: maybe with some #p prefixes in there
2017-02-23T00:19:28Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lpfggvfg/
2017-02-23T00:19:40Z drmeister: Eeek - the former
2017-02-23T00:19:45Z drmeister: Is that bad?
2017-02-23T00:19:58Z Xach: Well, it causes me some trouble.
2017-02-23T00:20:01Z drmeister: So many corner cases.
2017-02-23T00:20:34Z drmeister: In ECL so much of this is implemented in C and I had to reimplement it.
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2017-02-23T00:21:11Z drmeister: Is what clasp is doing non-conformant - or does this count as implementation dependent behavior?
2017-02-23T00:21:42Z Xach: very implementation-dependent. but it seems to go against the intent of the argument - it looks like it *is* resolving symlinks, just a symlink at a higher level
2017-02-23T00:21:55Z drmeister: Also, as a rule, I try to reproduce what ECL does because it simplifies things like this.
2017-02-23T00:22:06Z drmeister: Yeah
2017-02-23T00:22:29Z Xach: i'll ask jackdaniel about it
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2017-02-23T00:24:41Z drmeister: Hmm, I translated the ECL function line for line into C++.
2017-02-23T00:24:58Z drmeister: This is clasp: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/dev/src/core/unixfsys.cc#L1358
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2017-02-23T00:25:43Z drmeister: Hmm, I don't have ECL installed from github on this machine
2017-02-23T00:26:20Z drmeister: Yeah - ECL does the same thing.
2017-02-23T00:26:24Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VjjcbyWU/
2017-02-23T00:26:35Z drmeister: It's full of /private/etc
2017-02-23T00:26:42Z drmeister: So I copied ECL faithfully.
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2017-02-23T00:38:35Z myrkraverk: Does QuickLisp (or ASDF) have a concept of an optional dependency?
2017-02-23T00:39:25Z myrkraverk: That is, can I "use" something in a package only if the user already ql:quickload;ed it?
2017-02-23T00:40:14Z pillton: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Weakly-depends-on
2017-02-23T00:40:44Z pillton: I strongly recommend not using it.
2017-02-23T00:41:20Z myrkraverk: I see.
2017-02-23T00:42:21Z myrkraverk: Does ql:quickload have something to propagate such options to the system/package?
2017-02-23T00:42:42Z pillton: What do you mean?
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2017-02-23T00:42:58Z Bike: something like (ql:quickload foo and-i-want-bar) kind of thing?
2017-02-23T00:43:16Z myrkraverk: Yes.
2017-02-23T00:43:37Z myrkraverk: Specifically, I'm wondering if a user can specify flexichains as on optional dependency on my punycode decoder.
2017-02-23T00:44:05Z pillton: Well, it should be like the link above i.e. (ql:quickload "punycode+flexichains")
2017-02-23T00:44:28Z myrkraverk: Though even if I haven't yet done some benchmarks, I'm thinking about making it some sort of an optional thing; not a requirement.
2017-02-23T00:44:56Z myrkraverk: pillton: I just don't see how that works out, in this particular instance.
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2017-02-23T00:45:02Z myrkraverk: But maybe I can think of something.
2017-02-23T00:45:45Z pillton: (defsystem "punycode+flexichains" ...)
2017-02-23T00:45:47Z myrkraverk: Maybe I can have punycode use some sort of plugins and punycode+flexychains load it with that plugin.
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2017-02-23T00:47:17Z myrkraverk: I just have to do some experimentation and see if I can come up with a sane plugin API.
2017-02-23T00:47:27Z pillton: That is what you have to do.
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2017-02-23T00:47:41Z myrkraverk: Or just forcibly depend on flexichains; that's always an option too.
2017-02-23T00:47:43Z myrkraverk: Yeah.
2017-02-23T00:48:17Z myrkraverk: In other news, I have finished the decoder implementation; now I just have to splice in flexichains (and maybe plugins) for some sort of efficient string building.
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2017-02-23T00:56:04Z myrkraverk: And just as I write that, I see that there already is a decoder.
2017-02-23T00:56:23Z myrkraverk: Usage (unicode -> punycode only at the moment): <--- lies!
2017-02-23T00:57:18Z myrkraverk: "punycode-decode doesn't implement it at all." <-- also lies.  There is a decoder in the source.
2017-02-23T00:57:36Z myrkraverk: Ah, it's about preserve-case.
2017-02-23T00:58:02Z myrkraverk: Well, I can at least shrug it off as a learning experience c;
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2017-02-23T01:03:50Z jasom: Is there a command to quickload just the dependencies of a given .asd file?
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2017-02-23T01:06:20Z Xach: jasom: no.
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2017-02-23T01:12:59Z jasom: well I worked around it... :depends-on #.(with-open-file (f "deps.txt") (read f))
2017-02-23T01:13:50Z jasom: now I have the dependencies in one place that I can read from
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2017-02-23T01:40:01Z TruePika: heh, this feels so wrong
2017-02-23T01:40:08Z TruePika: I'm writing very inefficient code
2017-02-23T01:41:07Z TruePika: these are base methods for a base class; they'll _work_ for properly-defined subclasses, but it is best to have a version specifically for each subclass which is optimized to its architecture
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2017-02-23T02:19:38Z drmeister: Can slime be restarted remotely?
2017-02-23T02:20:44Z Bike: what do you mean
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2017-02-23T02:47:48Z pillton: ssh localhost emacs -nw --eval '(slime)'
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2017-02-23T02:59:40Z pillton: There is also (swank:create-server).
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2017-02-23T04:06:39Z drmeister: Is there a way to change where ~/.cache/common-lisp is placed?
2017-02-23T04:07:41Z pillton: asdf:*user-cache*
2017-02-23T04:08:21Z drmeister: Thank you
2017-02-23T04:08:47Z pillton: I am guessing that is what you meant.
2017-02-23T04:08:59Z pillton: Otherwise mv ~/.cace/common-lisp /tmp :)
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2017-02-23T04:11:13Z drmeister: But ASDF won't find it there unless I change asdf:*user-cache* - correct?
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2017-02-23T04:21:25Z pillton: That is right.
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2017-02-23T04:26:57Z krwq: hello, I'm trying to port my app to windows, when running it, it tries to do something with gcc and says that it can't find it - i have installed mingw hoping it will discover it after but it didn't - anyone has done that before?
2017-02-23T04:27:13Z krwq: Couldn't execute "gcc": The system cannot find the file specified.
2017-02-23T04:27:13Z krwq:    [Condition of type CFFI-GROVEL:GROVEL-ERROR]
2017-02-23T04:28:03Z pillton: I think you need to customize cffi-grovel::*cc*.
2017-02-23T04:30:45Z krwq: Thank you pillton - i still am getting errors but ill try to figure it out myself first
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2017-02-23T04:30:54Z krwq: (different errors)
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2017-02-23T04:44:45Z krwq: is there any way to tell what error did the grovel process exit with? when i run that manually from command line i get different error depending if im in mingw/bin or not
2017-02-23T04:44:52Z krwq: and it doesnt display working dir
2017-02-23T04:46:20Z krwq: it says that 64 bit is not implemented
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2017-02-23T04:52:54Z pillton: From what I recall the 64bit version of mingw had to be downloaded and installed separately.
2017-02-23T04:53:44Z pillton: This was three to four years ago.
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2017-02-23T05:32:57Z axion: Given that the recommended style for predicates is foop/some-foo-p, how should a defstruct slot be defined? Should it be ex: foo-p such that the concatenated accessor is some-foo-p? Or some other way?
2017-02-23T05:34:37Z loke prefers to manually name my slot accessors.
2017-02-23T05:34:59Z loke: Since I pretty much always use DEFCLASS rather than DEFSTRUCT, that's a natural thing anyway.
2017-02-23T05:35:08Z loke: axion: Why are you using DEFSTRUCT by the way?
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2017-02-23T05:36:46Z axion: loke: Indeed I use DEFCLASS mostly, but there are times when I need DEFSTRUCT
2017-02-23T05:37:38Z loke: axion: For what? Performance?
2017-02-23T05:38:01Z axion: Not just that, but for type defining structs as arrays and such: http://paste.lisp.org/display/336028
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2017-02-23T05:39:33Z loke: How is this different from (defclass foo () ((x :type single-float))) ?
2017-02-23T05:39:37Z loke: Other than performance of course.
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2017-02-23T05:39:58Z axion: It is different in that the object is no longer a struct
2017-02-23T05:40:01Z Bike: that's kind of an open question
2017-02-23T05:40:15Z loke: axion: Why does it have to be a struct?
2017-02-23T05:40:18Z Bike: i mean the defstruct is completely different, it doesn't define a type, it defines a copy function, like five other functions
2017-02-23T05:42:33Z axion: It doesn't have to be. This way I get an array that can be uploaded to OpenGL and be able to access it like an object, and declare the input of all functions as a specific type of array.
2017-02-23T05:44:17Z jackdaniel: Bike: do you mean that it doesn't define a class? because it defines type
2017-02-23T05:44:35Z Bike: i mean, the defstruct form doesn't define a type.
2017-02-23T05:45:45Z axion: Because the :type on the struct allows SBCL to treat it purely like a vector type, so the optimization can work very nicely on it.
2017-02-23T05:46:14Z axion: Also, I can know exactly the size of the structure in memory, since it is a real array of a certain type, but it is harder to know for  defclass instance.
2017-02-23T05:46:59Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-23T06:05:12Z jackdaniel: I'm not sure if I understand, even spec says explicitly "defstruct defines a structured type, named structure-type (...). "
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2017-02-23T06:05:49Z Bike: if you use :type it does not
2017-02-23T06:06:21Z Bike: "If no :type option is involved, then the structure name of the including structure definition becomes the name of a data type"
2017-02-23T06:06:45Z Bike: er, wrong bit. "For structures defined with a :type option, type-of returns a type specifier such as list or (vector t), depending on the type supplied to the :type option. The structure name does not become a valid type specifier. "
2017-02-23T06:08:40Z axion: That's where deftype comes in, so I don't have to (declaim (ftype (function (some-long-array-type ..))))
2017-02-23T06:08:43Z jackdaniel: ah, so you mean that defstruct doesn't necessarily define a type. Thanks
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2017-02-23T08:59:51Z mazoe: hmm, interesting
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2017-02-23T09:13:53Z beach: What is?
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2017-02-23T09:20:36Z mazoe: beach: the :type option in defstruct
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2017-02-23T09:20:56Z mazoe: and how Bike is using it
2017-02-23T09:21:29Z mazoe: I was a little late to the party :/
2017-02-23T09:24:19Z Bike: with :type defstruct turns into a convenient way to define a bunch of thin wrapper functions
2017-02-23T09:24:50Z mazoe: mhmm, pretty neat
2017-02-23T09:25:04Z Bike: and perfectly implementable in the rest of common lisp, except for boa constructors probs
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2017-02-23T09:55:42Z knobo: Can sbcl or other lisps use compressed source files?
2017-02-23T09:55:56Z knobo: Or maybe that could be asdf's job.
2017-02-23T09:56:20Z loke: knobo: Why would you want to? Do you have many GB of source? :-)
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2017-02-23T09:57:34Z knobo: Maybe not.
2017-02-23T09:57:40Z knobo: Just a thought
2017-02-23T09:57:45Z phoe_: knobo: compressed source files?
2017-02-23T09:57:47Z phoe_: what do you mean?
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2017-02-23T09:59:07Z phoe_: there's a gzip library for CL, you could technically use it to extract files into strings, streamify them and supply them to LOAD.
2017-02-23T09:59:10Z phoe_: but you can'
2017-02-23T09:59:26Z phoe_: can't generate FASLs in an easy way if you take that route.
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2017-02-23T10:01:05Z phoe_: knobo: but then again, what would be the usecase for that?
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2017-02-23T11:05:25Z phoe_: clhs string-not-equal
2017-02-23T11:05:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm
2017-02-23T11:05:41Z phoe_: Has anyone noticed that this function has completely no description?
2017-02-23T11:06:55Z phoe_: I think that we should create one.
2017-02-23T11:07:22Z phoe_: The spec is really, really amusing.
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2017-02-23T11:08:47Z beach: Heh!
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2017-02-23T11:11:28Z phoe_: "string-not-equal is just like string/= except that differences in case are ignored; two characters are considered to be the same if char-equal is true of them. "
2017-02-23T11:11:31Z phoe_: That's my proposition.
2017-02-23T11:11:41Z phoe_: Basically a copypaste of char-equal.
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2017-02-23T11:15:12Z phoe_: beach: what do you say?
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2017-02-23T11:17:51Z |3b| would add string-not-equal to string-equal, similar to the -lessp, -greaterp
2017-02-23T11:19:30Z |3b|: though i guess it has slightly different wording, so would require a bit more changes
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2017-02-23T11:36:42Z slaterr: hi
2017-02-23T11:36:49Z slaterr: what is your opinion of spacemacs?
2017-02-23T11:39:38Z jackdaniel: slaterr: you'll gather more opinions on #emacs, this channel is about Common Lisp
2017-02-23T11:39:43Z slaterr: from perspective of vim user who can't get used to emacs keybindings but wants to use some emacs modes, like slime (that i suppose works just as well on spacemacs as on regular emacs?)
2017-02-23T11:40:14Z jackdaniel: spacemacs works OK for a few people I know. There is also slimv mode for VIM (I don't know anything about its quality though)
2017-02-23T11:40:21Z slaterr: i know. i'm mainly interested in using slime with spacemacs
2017-02-23T11:40:36Z jackdaniel: from what I've heard it works just fine
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2017-02-23T11:42:03Z phoe_: slaterr: I enjoy spacemacs with slime.
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2017-02-23T11:43:06Z slaterr: phoe_ do you usually use vim?
2017-02-23T11:43:32Z slaterr: i guess you prefer spacemacs + slime over slimv
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2017-02-23T11:43:49Z phoe_: slaterr: I've never been a vim user, but I use spacemacs's vim mode.
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2017-02-23T11:45:00Z slaterr: phoe_ ah
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2017-02-23T11:45:20Z slaterr: do vim bindings work in slime window?
2017-02-23T11:45:31Z phoe_: slaterr: yes.
2017-02-23T11:51:37Z slaterr: cool i'll give it a try. just curious, what made you use vim bindings when you don't have experience with vim?
2017-02-23T11:51:43Z slaterr: used vi before?
2017-02-23T11:51:46Z phoe_: no.
2017-02-23T11:51:50Z phoe_: I was curious.
2017-02-23T11:51:57Z phoe_: and I ended up liking it in the end.
2017-02-23T11:52:14Z phoe_: the space leader key is pretty fun.
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2017-02-23T12:01:33Z phoe_: God damn it.
2017-02-23T12:01:53Z phoe_: Specification chapter 8 *needs* some damn refactoring.
2017-02-23T12:02:03Z phoe_: And I mean serious refactoring.
2017-02-23T12:02:18Z phoe_: A lot of information needs to be put into a currently non-existing concepts part.
2017-02-23T12:02:33Z phoe_: Since everything's in one huge and monolithic DEFSTRUCT page.
2017-02-23T12:03:25Z phoe_: clhs 8.1
2017-02-23T12:03:25Z specbot: The Structures Dictionary: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/c_struct.htm
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2017-02-23T12:58:44Z lieven: heh I never noticed you can only have one :include in defstruct. It's not immediately obvious to me why they added this restriction
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2017-02-23T13:34:06Z Xach: ha! nicolas neuss removed the infix library from his femlisp project. comment: "available in a better way using Quicklisp". but quicklisp's version of infix comes from -- femlisp.
2017-02-23T13:35:06Z Xach: lieven: I don't know the ultimate reason, but it is much easier to implement in a way that is pretty fast and space efficient.
2017-02-23T13:35:19Z fe[nl]ix: hahaha
2017-02-23T13:35:44Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: time to move it to sharplispers ?
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2017-02-23T13:36:01Z Xach: fe[nl]ix: Not sure. there's a new project cmu-infix, maybe femlisp could use that.
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2017-02-23T13:36:13Z Xach: but it's not in quicklisp until the next release in a few days.
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2017-02-23T13:37:25Z Xach: lieven: if you have structure type S' that :includes S, instances can look like: [[S slots][S' slots]] and all S accessors can work as though the instance is an S.
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2017-02-23T13:38:15Z Xach: I'm not sure it could be any other way for vector structs.
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2017-02-23T13:41:17Z malice: Hi all! I am trying to set up Travis CI for my CL project, using Roswell to test different implementations.
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2017-02-23T13:41:38Z malice: I found this article: https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki/4.1-Travis-CI and I am trying to set it up for this project: https://github.com/MatthewRock/cl-sandbox/tree/travis-installation
2017-02-23T13:42:25Z malice: However, when calling roswell, quicklisp does not see my project. However, the template does not seem to include adding it to the ql location or adding anything to asdf:*central-directory*
2017-02-23T13:42:27Z malice: what am I doing wrong?
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2017-02-23T13:51:45Z payphone: I'm fairly certain Roswell uses its own qucklisp folder. I think the local projects folder is located in ~/.roswell/local-projects/
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2017-02-23T13:58:36Z beach: lieven: What Xach said.  Multiple inheritance makes it possible for the position of a slot vary from one class to another.  This is also why Java has multiple inheritance only for interfaces.
2017-02-23T13:59:56Z malice: payphone: What should I do then? My system is called cl-sandbox, and I am installing it with "ros install MatthewRock/cl-sandbox". It gets installed properly. However, loading the system with -s argument still does not work.
2017-02-23T14:00:05Z lieven: beach: yeah. And they would have to deal with the question of multiple includes via different paths
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2017-02-23T14:02:21Z beach: lieven: All those problems are taken care of by standard classes, but they require the accessors to be generic functions.
2017-02-23T14:02:58Z drmeister: Has anyone tried to run a swank server within a docker container?
2017-02-23T14:02:58Z Colleen: drmeister: frgo said 4 hours, 15 minutes, 18 seconds ago: Strange effect: I changed fli.cc and then did a waf build_cboehm - this results in an infinite loop during build: bclasp building doesn't goe into a link phase but loads the "clasp-builder" again ...
2017-02-23T14:03:55Z drmeister: Question #2: What does a swank protocol request look like?   If I telnet into a swank server - I see the server respond - but how do I formulate input so that swank processes it and returns a result?
2017-02-23T14:04:51Z myrkraverk: Err, isn't tcpdump and friends the tool to use?
2017-02-23T14:05:51Z payphone: malice: Ah, I see. I misunderstood your problem. Give me a second to check your code.
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2017-02-23T14:06:45Z Xach: drmeister: there is at least one non-slime swank client program, maybe it could provide some insight
2017-02-23T14:07:01Z drmeister: What program is that?
2017-02-23T14:07:03Z Xach: drmeister: i think it involves sending sexps
2017-02-23T14:07:26Z Xach: drmeister: conium
2017-02-23T14:07:38Z Xach: there is also swank-client
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2017-02-23T14:10:55Z slaterr: would it be possible to make a macro that will turn CL into lisp-1 locally?
2017-02-23T14:11:52Z payphone: malice: I think your sandbox.asd file should be named cl-sandbox.asd, the same as your package name.
2017-02-23T14:12:18Z jackdaniel: s/package/system/
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2017-02-23T14:12:28Z payphone: Right, sorry.
2017-02-23T14:12:33Z jackdaniel: asdf when it searches for a system checks file names indeed
2017-02-23T14:12:45Z jackdaniel: if system has a slash, then only first part is considered a file name
2017-02-23T14:12:47Z Xach: yes, foo.asd must match (defsystem foo ...) inside.
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2017-02-23T14:12:55Z Xach: jackdaniel: hello hi!
2017-02-23T14:13:02Z jackdaniel: Xach: hey o/
2017-02-23T14:13:26Z Xach: jackdaniel: I have a DIRECTORY issue in ecl
2017-02-23T14:14:10Z jackdaniel: what kind of issue?
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2017-02-23T14:14:32Z beach: slaterr: What aspect of lisp-1 are you looking to use inside a call to that macro?
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2017-02-23T14:15:20Z jackdaniel: Xach: (directory "/tmp/") will return only this directory, (directory "/tmp/*") will return all files in directory
2017-02-23T14:15:28Z jackdaniel: it's different than in say SBCL, but its conforming
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2017-02-23T14:16:03Z Xach: jackdaniel: it's to do with extaspec behavior of :resolve-symlinks
2017-02-23T14:16:20Z slaterr: beach (x (y z)) instead of (funcall 'x (funcall 'y z)
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2017-02-23T14:16:39Z Xach: jackdaniel: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339790 shows what i mean
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2017-02-23T14:17:10Z slaterr: beach I am not sure if you have to call funcall when calling a function returned by a function? if so I would like that as well
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2017-02-23T14:18:44Z beach: slaterr: You could probably write a macro that would do some of that stuff, but it would be very complicated.  It would require a complete code walker.  And you still could not do things like ((f x) y).
2017-02-23T14:19:04Z beach: Well, I suppose you could handle that case as well.
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2017-02-23T14:19:29Z Xach: If the variables in question are easily enumerated, you can do something much simpler.
2017-02-23T14:19:42Z Xach: Something that "just" establishes a bunch of labels.
2017-02-23T14:19:52Z jackdaniel: Xach: this name may be a bit misguiding, what resolve-symlinks does is in fact "follow symlinks"
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2017-02-23T14:20:03Z beach: slaterr: But why would you want something like that?  Or is this just a theoretical question?
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2017-02-23T14:21:01Z Xach: jackdaniel: so I should expect the same result whether i provide t or nil in this case?
2017-02-23T14:22:46Z Xach: jackdaniel: i know this is not specified by the spec, so any behavior is fine, but I am trying to calibrate expectations.
2017-02-23T14:22:48Z slaterr: beach both.. i was wondering if it is theorically possible. and practically I would funcall clutter when programming in a more functional style. I'm sure you get used to it after a while but..
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2017-02-23T14:23:03Z slaterr: it would remove funcall clutter*, even
2017-02-23T14:23:09Z jackdaniel: Xach: yes, I'm checking in the sources atm
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2017-02-23T14:23:37Z Xach: jackdaniel: for what it's worth, sbcl returns sym/a.txt or real/a.txt depending on :resolve-symlinks nil/t
2017-02-23T14:24:13Z Xach: and that is what i find natural to expect, but this is just info, not a club
2017-02-23T14:25:28Z jackdaniel: I find it natural too. right now it behaves indifferent in the situation you have mentioned, but I wouldn't depend on that behavior
2017-02-23T14:25:40Z jackdaniel: I may change it in the near future
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2017-02-23T14:27:36Z Xach: jackdaniel: this came up because of a particular situation
2017-02-23T14:29:01Z Xach: jackdaniel: I want to make a file, /foo/bar/index.txt, that has a list of all *.asd files under /foo/bar/. And I want to make the pathnames relative to /foo/bar/, so in the case of symlinks, I want the non-resolved name.
2017-02-23T14:29:27Z Xach: that works all right with :resolve-symlinks nil
2017-02-23T14:29:37Z Xach: but sometimes /foo/bar/ itself is actually /Barble/Narble/foo/bar/ and that can foul up computing relative pathnames
2017-02-23T14:29:45Z Xach: I'm trying to find a workable way on each implementation.
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2017-02-23T14:30:07Z Xach: ecl (and clasp) are the odd ones out so far.
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2017-02-23T14:33:53Z jackdaniel: Xach: ecl's directory will be rewritten to match more closely other implementations, so resolve-symlinks will get there too. But first I want to write a CDR for pathname unification to have something to refere to
2017-02-23T14:34:42Z jackdaniel: right now it behaves as it behaves
2017-02-23T14:34:47Z Xach: understood
2017-02-23T14:35:22Z jackdaniel: thanks for pointing this one out
2017-02-23T14:35:28Z drmeister: Can slime be used to connect to swank servers on remote machines?  I'm guessing yes based on what I've heard.
2017-02-23T14:35:52Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I have the same issue with resolve-symlinks because clasp duplicates ECL's behavior
2017-02-23T14:35:58Z Xach: drmeister: Yes, but by default it listens only on localhost. there is no authentication in the protocol.
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2017-02-23T14:36:05Z Xach: drmeister: when i want to remote connect, i use an ssh tunnel.
2017-02-23T14:36:25Z drmeister: Thanks
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2017-02-23T14:36:45Z drmeister: I'm running swank within a docker container and there appears to be some initial communication and then:
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2017-02-23T14:37:02Z jackdaniel: drmeister: M-x slime-connect
2017-02-23T14:37:13Z jackdaniel: from emacs, and then you type the ip (and port)
2017-02-23T14:37:19Z jackdaniel: if target slime accepts connection, then you're in
2017-02-23T14:37:24Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Yes - I'm using that
2017-02-23T14:37:37Z jackdaniel: note, that M-. won't work unless you have sources at the exact same location as on target machine
2017-02-23T14:37:42Z drmeister: Docker is providing 0.0.0.0/4005
2017-02-23T14:38:04Z drmeister: slime-connect / 0.0.0.0 / 4005 ends with:
2017-02-23T14:38:18Z drmeister: Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer
2017-02-23T14:38:30Z jackdaniel: drmeister: 0.0.0.0 is "every network", but you have to connect to the particular ip
2017-02-23T14:38:34Z jackdaniel: for instance 127.0.0.1
2017-02-23T14:38:48Z drmeister: There is a message in the *slime events* buffer:
2017-02-23T14:38:50Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/YV7ItLwd/
2017-02-23T14:39:18Z drmeister: 0.0.0.0 is a docker thing - that's where they provide access to the docker services
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2017-02-23T14:41:30Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/eCE0tfvF/
2017-02-23T14:41:46Z drmeister: I also have a web server running.  I connect to that via 0.0.0.0:80
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2017-02-23T14:42:22Z jackdaniel: how did you start swank server?
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2017-02-23T14:42:46Z jackdaniel: (I mean – what is a communication-style)
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2017-02-23T14:49:49Z drmeister: I'd like to deploy Cando (Clasp+chemistry code) as a Docker image that people run and connect to initially through emacs/slime
2017-02-23T14:50:27Z drmeister: (load "/root/slime/start-swank.lisp")
2017-02-23T14:50:38Z drmeister: I don't specify the communication-style anywhere.
2017-02-23T14:50:48Z drmeister: That's right - where does that get set up?
2017-02-23T14:51:27Z drmeister: That's specified in emacs at startup.
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2017-02-23T14:52:22Z eudoxia: drmeister: did you remember to expose the port Swank is running on?
2017-02-23T14:52:39Z drmeister: I see the same immediate shutdown with sbcl/swank running in the docker container
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2017-02-23T14:52:50Z drmeister: eudoxia: I think so - I use:
2017-02-23T14:52:51Z jackdaniel: drmeister: see https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/ecl/ecl-android/blob/master/assets/lisp/etc/user.lisp#L69 start-swank function
2017-02-23T14:53:01Z drmeister: docker run -p4005:4005 -it drmeister/clasp-common-lisp
2017-02-23T14:53:26Z eudoxia: hmmm
2017-02-23T14:54:09Z eudoxia: and you set the loopback interface in swank to... i don't recall what the correct value would be
2017-02-23T14:54:11Z eudoxia: i think 0.0.0.0
2017-02-23T14:54:51Z jackdaniel: 0.0.0.0 is OK for remote connections
2017-02-23T14:55:37Z antoszka: though I'm not sure it's good to expose swank to the external world
2017-02-23T14:55:53Z eudoxia: only to the outside of the Docker container, I think
2017-02-23T14:56:06Z drmeister: I was incorrect - you set the style in the create-server invocation:
2017-02-23T14:56:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/jDwScGT0/
2017-02-23T14:56:17Z antoszka: I'd rather ask the potential users to set up ssh tunnels and leave swank listening on 127.0.0.1:<whatever port>
2017-02-23T14:56:25Z eudoxia: I guess you could set swank::*loopback-interface* to (uiop:hostname) and let UIOP take the wheel
2017-02-23T14:56:50Z eudoxia: antoszka: but that requires users to do more work
2017-02-23T14:57:34Z drmeister: What is the swank::*loopback-interface* for?
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2017-02-23T14:58:06Z eudoxia: tells swank what interface to bind to
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2017-02-23T14:58:20Z drmeister: Maybe that is confusing it.
2017-02-23T15:00:05Z eudoxia: also, try connecting to the Docker swank with https://github.com/eudoxia0/swank-protocol
2017-02-23T15:00:22Z eudoxia: I've had trouble connecting from Emacs to a Dockerized swank before :/
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2017-02-23T15:41:55Z slaterr: about my earlier question about turning CL into lisp-1. wouldn't it be relatively simple by walking through the code, and turning every function call into a check whether the symbol refered to a function or a variable, and then either call it directly or via funcall?
2017-02-23T15:42:37Z slaterr: same for ((f x)). just slap funcall there?
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2017-02-23T15:43:51Z beach: How do you know that it is a function call?
2017-02-23T15:44:18Z slaterr: what else could it be if it isn't quoted?
2017-02-23T15:45:10Z beach: So if you have (with-output-to-string (var ...)) you will treat var as a function call?
2017-02-23T15:46:41Z slaterr: beach good point.. how about expanding all the code first
2017-02-23T15:46:52Z slaterr: is that possible?
2017-02-23T15:46:52Z beach: That requires a code walker as I said.
2017-02-23T15:47:05Z beach: You need access to the environment of the implementation.
2017-02-23T15:48:20Z slaterr: is that a problem? I'm not sure what "enivonment of the implementation" standards for. do you mean code can't be written in CL and it has to be implementation specific?
2017-02-23T15:48:32Z beach: That's right.
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2017-02-23T15:48:39Z ogamita: slaterr: yes, it's simple, such a macro has been posted on news:comp.lang.lisp ages ago.
2017-02-23T15:48:53Z ogamita: slaterr: there's also the more complete solution provided by pseudo-scheme.
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2017-02-23T15:50:09Z slaterr: ogamita interesting. i'll take a look
2017-02-23T15:50:37Z beach: slaterr: For you example of ((f x)), would you turn (let ((x 234) (y 345)) ...) into (let (funcall (x 234) (y 345)) ...)?
2017-02-23T15:51:06Z ogamita: Theorically, a code walker has to be implementation specific, because the standard doesn't prevent the implementations to provide implementation specific special operators.  But in practice IIRC, there's only one such occurence amongst all the common implementations.
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2017-02-23T15:51:44Z ogamita: So in practice you can "easily" write a code walker.  Now the "easily" is quoted because to make it easy it is preferable to provide your own implementation of all the CL macros.
2017-02-23T15:53:23Z beach: How do you handle MACROLET?
2017-02-23T15:53:25Z ogamita: Yes, new special operators, but the worst is the _extension_ of standard special operators!  AFAIK there is only one such occurence amongst the common implementation too. (clisp extends CL:FUNCTION with an additionnal parameter, sbcl has an additionnal special operator (that is not an implementation of a standard macro).
2017-02-23T15:53:40Z ogamita: Macroexpanding it.
2017-02-23T15:53:48Z beach: In which environment?
2017-02-23T15:54:35Z ogamita: https://github.com/informatimago/lisp/blob/master/common-lisp/lisp/stepper.lisp#L266
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2017-02-23T15:55:26Z ogamita: ok, in cl-stepper I have it easy, because I use the underlying implementation for the expansion of the result of the code walker.
2017-02-23T15:56:42Z ogamita: beach: the trick is to assume a conforming program on a conforming implementation.  Then you can substitute any operator of the implementation by equivalent conforming operators, notably for macros. (for functions it is more difficult if you have alternate data types).
2017-02-23T15:57:16Z beach: Yes, I see.
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2017-02-23T16:01:16Z drmeister: eudoxia: That swank-protocol thing...  that runs within another Common Lisp implementation and talks to swank somewhere else - correct?
2017-02-23T16:01:52Z eudoxia: yes
2017-02-23T16:01:56Z eudoxia: it's a Swank client written in CL
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2017-02-23T16:48:56Z jasom: eudoxia: last time I wrote a swank client, the swank service changed to often for it to be useful; is that still the case?
2017-02-23T16:49:11Z eudoxia: I've no idea
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2017-02-23T16:49:35Z eudoxia: swank-protocol is a very low level client, basically just handles the wire-protocol (length-prefixing and all that crap)
2017-02-23T16:49:44Z eudoxia: the higher-level client, swank-client, might be broken now idk
2017-02-23T16:49:54Z jasom: ah
2017-02-23T16:50:29Z jasom: I looked at the slime history and it's really a case of a single monolithic program that just happens to make some function calls across the wire.
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2017-02-23T16:51:31Z eudoxia: it fucking sucks
2017-02-23T16:51:48Z eudoxia: ideally I'd write a swank server fork that uses a decent wire protocol
2017-02-23T16:51:50Z jasom: I don't know if I could convince the slime maintainers to do this, but a nice thing might be to factor out all the various implementation-specific things that slime can do into its own library (generate a backtrace, break, eval compile &c.) then one wouldn't be tied to the swank wire protocol
2017-02-23T16:52:07Z eudoxia: yeah
2017-02-23T16:52:09Z eudoxia: well
2017-02-23T16:52:21Z eudoxia: i'm not sure how feasible it is, I think some things are naturally tied together
2017-02-23T16:52:29Z jasom: b/c the only real reason to use swank is the huge amount of implicit knowledge in the code about how to control and debug various lisp implementations
2017-02-23T16:52:38Z eudoxia: consider sending `(read)` over to swank and having the lisp process wait for user input
2017-02-23T16:53:03Z eudoxia: the core functionality is not always neatly separable from the IPC part
2017-02-23T16:53:19Z jasom: eudoxia: well that's just accomplished by binding streams, right? It's orthogonal to the debugger specific things
2017-02-23T16:53:22Z eudoxia: but improving the wire protocol to anything other than serialized Sexps would work
2017-02-23T16:53:40Z eudoxia: well, bespoke gray streams are used
2017-02-23T16:54:05Z eudoxia: but ideally yeah: there should be an IDE engine core, an IDE engine wire protocol server, and a CL IDE engine client
2017-02-23T16:54:12Z eudoxia: all separate independently tested libraries
2017-02-23T16:54:24Z jasom: I can implement bespoke gray streams fairly easy, and using trivial-gray-streams it's implementation independent.  It's all the other stuff that is a PITA to do and needs to be done 6 times.
2017-02-23T16:55:12Z eudoxia: yeah it's definitely time consuming if you want to support everyone
2017-02-23T16:55:17Z eudoxia: tbh i'd just support SBCL and CCL initially
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2017-02-23T17:10:10Z drmeister cheers eudoxia and jasom on
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2017-02-23T17:22:01Z drmeister: If I have a Dockerfile that clones clasp from github and then builds it - if I change the github repo - is there a way to build a docker image from that point?     I guess I start from an image that immediately precedes the git clone and build?
2017-02-23T17:22:55Z drmeister: Off-topic - I know - sorry.  But there are several docker users here interested in Common Lisp.
2017-02-23T17:25:34Z drmeister: It's ok - I think I got it.
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2017-02-23T20:25:05Z burtons: Does anybody have expererience with clack and it's websocket-driver?
2017-02-23T20:25:45Z burtons: I'm trying to get a simple example working with no luck.
2017-02-23T20:28:27Z burtons: Here's the code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339804
2017-02-23T20:28:34Z burtons: And resulting error message at the bottom.
2017-02-23T20:29:09Z burtons: Seems to be a low level problem with promises, with everything installed out of the lastest quicklisp.
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2017-02-23T20:37:30Z burtons: Is there a better channel to ask this question in?
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2017-02-23T20:40:25Z Bike: not hat i know of, but an answer might take time
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2017-02-23T20:44:44Z burtons: Ok, wasn't sure if there was a #lisp-webdev or something.
2017-02-23T20:47:12Z dlowe: there is a #lispweb, I think, or there was
2017-02-23T20:49:12Z burtons: thanks
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2017-02-23T21:11:57Z TruePika feels he _might_ need to switch to a better test framework
2017-02-23T21:12:18Z TruePika: at least, if I continue with my current project architecture
2017-02-23T21:13:26Z TruePika: I have a very long macro set up right now for defining test cases
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2017-02-23T21:14:10Z TruePika: 272 lines
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2017-02-23T21:17:58Z k-stz: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/42426046/stopped-process-but-heap-is-still-changing if someone whats to guess with me. But it's only Lisp related to the extend that I'm building a Lisp program around it
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2017-02-23T21:25:46Z TruePika: k-stz: ptrace(2) acts on threads, not entire processes; the second argument is the thread ID
2017-02-23T21:26:17Z TruePika: citation: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/ptrace.2.html
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2017-02-23T21:28:08Z k-stz: TruePika: ah thank you, that was me using pseudo code, I got the order right in the binding
2017-02-23T21:28:38Z k-stz: now to figure out how to edit the SO quetstion...
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2017-02-23T21:33:18Z TruePika is looking at NST
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2017-02-23T21:36:42Z k-stz: multiple threads sharing the same heap.. stopping one thread would still allow other threads to change it
2017-02-23T21:37:13Z k-stz: arf i dont know this stuff
2017-02-23T21:38:26Z TruePika: k-stz: what happens if you send SIGTSTP?
2017-02-23T21:38:45Z TruePika: it _should_ (it can be ignored) halt all threads until SIGCONT
2017-02-23T21:38:59Z TruePika: (note SIGTSTP, not SIGSTOP)
2017-02-23T21:39:19Z k-stz: huh
2017-02-23T21:39:50Z k-stz: I'm checking if the heaps overlap and then I'm gonna stop them all.. this makes sense
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2017-02-23T21:46:22Z k-stz: TruePika: well first of all thanks! SIGTSTP works, but now i have some more reading to do :)
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2017-02-23T21:54:05Z TruePika: ...
2017-02-23T21:54:21Z TruePika: I loaded the NST package from Quicklisp, it changed my REPL prompt
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2017-02-23T21:57:48Z TruePika: ah, a module SB-ACLREPL appeared
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2017-02-23T22:15:40Z lagagain:     (defun hello(&optional name)
2017-02-23T22:15:40Z lagagain:       (Unless name
2017-02-23T22:15:40Z lagagain:         (Format t "Please Input your name: ")
2017-02-23T22:15:40Z lagagain:         (Setf name (read-line)))
2017-02-23T22:15:40Z lagagain:       (Format t "Hello, ~A~%" name))
2017-02-23T22:15:40Z lagagain:      
2017-02-23T22:15:41Z lagagain:     (Hello)
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2017-02-23T22:16:45Z lagagain: Why I have different result between with sbcl and with ecl? https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/W4BJfqRc/Common%20Lisp%20-%20Hello%20World
2017-02-23T22:18:09Z lagagain: I think "Please Input your name" is show before input name, but sbcl, abcl is after input; clisp, ecl just I think.
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2017-02-23T22:18:54Z scymtym: lagagain: please use a pastebin service for multi-line code examples
2017-02-23T22:19:56Z scymtym: lagagain: the implementation is free to not write anything to your terminal before the READ-LINE call. add (finish-output) to force the output
2017-02-23T22:20:06Z TMA: lagagain: like in other languages, the output might be flushed lazily
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2017-02-23T22:22:24Z TruePika: wow http://pastebin.ca/3771385
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2017-02-23T22:24:39Z TruePika: just checked the macroexpand, yeah, D gets "bound" twice
2017-02-23T22:24:57Z lagagain: scymtym: TMA: I got it.  It run same as I think.  Thank you.
2017-02-23T22:25:08Z TruePika: but that (DECLARE (IGNORABLE C D D E F)) should theoretically suppress the STYLE-WARNING issued
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2017-02-23T22:26:19Z TruePika: yup, not unique to NST: (let* ((a 1) (b 2) (b 3)) (declare (ignorable a b b)) a) results in a STYLE-WARNING about defined and unused B
2017-02-23T22:27:26Z TruePika: might the first `B` there be a different symbol than the second `B`?
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2017-02-23T22:29:38Z TruePika: I can't be sure if this is an SBCL bug, I don't see anything covering this in the hyperspec
2017-02-23T22:31:36Z TruePika: Are symbols from LET bindings interned in *PACKAGE* or are they uninterned?
2017-02-23T22:32:01Z TruePika: ...scratch that, they're names
2017-02-23T22:34:45Z TMA: TruePika: if LET* is expanded in the straightforward manner to a series of nested LETs, the declare remains in the innermost LET form
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2017-02-23T22:36:57Z TMA: TruePika: therefore the ignorable is the second one, not the first one, which gets shadowed before being declared ignorable
2017-02-23T22:37:15Z TruePika: so there's no way to ignorable the earlier one?
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2017-02-23T22:39:32Z TMA: TruePika: not without splitting the let* into (let* ((a 1) (b 2)) (declare (ignorable b)) (let* ((b 3)) (declare (ignorable a b b)) a))
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2017-02-23T22:39:54Z TruePika: so this is a NST bug, meh
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2017-02-23T22:44:26Z TruePika: wow I love NST:ARBITRARY
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2017-02-23T22:50:38Z antoszka: TruePika: What's NST?
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2017-02-23T22:55:02Z TruePika: https://code.google.com/archive/p/cl-nst/wikis/VersionHistory.wiki
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2017-02-24T01:53:49Z krwq: hey, is there any way to make cffi-grovel fix include files? im seeing it is passing wrong paths to the compiler (they are missing c: on windows)
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2017-02-24T01:56:36Z krwq: ah ok, i can see the paths in one of the grovel files
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2017-02-24T04:59:49Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2017-02-24T05:11:51Z jasom: good morning beach!
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2017-02-24T07:02:59Z athan: halogenandtoast: o/
2017-02-24T07:03:05Z halogenandtoast: \o
2017-02-24T07:03:36Z athan: I think i understand the notion of prefix operation (I can't remember the correct term) - but like `+ 1 2 == 3` etc
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2017-02-24T07:03:47Z athan: but the concept of syntax-as-data doesn't make sense to me yet
2017-02-24T07:04:04Z athan: I'm familiar with TemplateHaskell, but I don't think that is the same concept as lisp quoting... right?
2017-02-24T07:04:15Z Bike: probably not.
2017-02-24T07:04:19Z halogenandtoast: I wouldn't say they are the same
2017-02-24T07:04:34Z halogenandtoast: athan: the best way to think about it, is that at run time you basically have full control over your AST
2017-02-24T07:04:54Z halogenandtoast: and that AST can be changed to fit different neads
2017-02-24T07:05:08Z halogenandtoast: which allows you to take code, and provide it to vastly different contexts
2017-02-24T07:05:20Z Bike: it's really pretty simple. (+ 1 2) evaluates to 3. '(+ 1 2) evaluates to a (linked) list of three elements.
2017-02-24T07:05:25Z beach: athan: Code as data will make sense once you start appreciating macros as a way of extending the syntax of the language, or a way of programming the compiler to understand new syntactic constructs.
2017-02-24T07:05:26Z athan: hm... well, okay first off, how do you write a lambda in lisp?
2017-02-24T07:05:37Z athan: because that's where I struggle
2017-02-24T07:05:41Z Bike: (lambda (parameter1 parameter2...) body...)
2017-02-24T07:05:41Z halogenandtoast: You don't always want to do this, but it's a useful tool.
2017-02-24T07:05:44Z halogenandtoast: ^^
2017-02-24T07:05:55Z athan: I'm too used to seeing a function space as "closed for all time"
2017-02-24T07:05:59Z halogenandtoast: remember all you have is the s-exp
2017-02-24T07:06:05Z halogenandtoast: and macros
2017-02-24T07:06:06Z Bike: what, in haskell?
2017-02-24T07:06:43Z athan: beach: sortof like DSLs in haskell, but you programatically generate them?
2017-02-24T07:06:52Z athan: ahh, thank you Bike
2017-02-24T07:07:36Z athan: Bike: Yeah, that's how haskell treats lambdas - they're immutable, and the only way to reason about them is through application
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2017-02-24T07:07:46Z athan: no form of syntax-as-data
2017-02-24T07:08:04Z beach: athan: A Common Lisp macro is a Common Lisp function that takes Common Lisp code (in the form of an internal representation as a data structure) and returns Common Lisp code (again, in the form of an internal representation as a data structure).
2017-02-24T07:08:05Z Bike: no, that's true in lisp as well. once you have a function you can't do much with it but check that it's a function and call it.
2017-02-24T07:08:14Z athan lets hope this doesn't offend people...
2017-02-24T07:08:19Z athan: what's an S-expression? :)
2017-02-24T07:08:22Z Bike: '(lambda ...) is just a list, though, you can look through that.
2017-02-24T07:08:58Z athan: beach: so in that case, it could be an array of terms (free / bound variables) or something?
2017-02-24T07:09:12Z Bike: what could be an array of terms?
2017-02-24T07:09:53Z halogenandtoast: Bike: can't you also do (quote (lambda ...))
2017-02-24T07:09:59Z athan: beach: I think that corrosponds to a morphism in haskell, of the type `AST -> AST`, to the degree that quoting turns code into data, then unqoting AST into actual code
2017-02-24T07:10:32Z Bike: halogenandtoast: sure you can, but that's not a function.
2017-02-24T07:10:40Z athan: Bike: You mean a list of arguments? How is `body` represented after quotation?
2017-02-24T07:10:47Z beach: athan: Common Lisp code is represented as a syntax tree in the form of a combination of nested lists, symbols, numbers, and other atoms.
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2017-02-24T07:11:06Z Bike: i think you might be overcomplicating this. lisp is seriously really simple about it. say you have like...
2017-02-24T07:11:11Z Bike: ((lambda (x) x) 43)
2017-02-24T07:11:12Z athan: ahh okay
2017-02-24T07:11:24Z Bike: an application of the identity function to 43. that's just like haskell.
2017-02-24T07:11:32Z athan: sure, that makes sense
2017-02-24T07:11:43Z athan: but what is `'(lambda (x) x)`?
2017-02-24T07:11:51Z Bike: a list with three elements.
2017-02-24T07:11:57Z athan: [x, <body>]` or something?
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2017-02-24T07:12:09Z Bike: the first element is the symbol LAMBDA, the second element is a list of one element, the symbol X, and the third element is the symbol X.
2017-02-24T07:12:10Z athan: what are those three elements exactly? the terms `lambda` `x` and `x`?
2017-02-24T07:12:22Z athan: oh!!
2017-02-24T07:12:28Z beach: They are not terms.
2017-02-24T07:12:29Z athan: woah
2017-02-24T07:12:32Z Bike: in other words there is an extremely close correspondance between the program text and the data structure.
2017-02-24T07:12:36Z athan: okay so, relevation:
2017-02-24T07:12:37Z beach: athan: LAMBDA is a symbol.
2017-02-24T07:12:42Z athan: LAMBDA is actually a function, too
2017-02-24T07:12:47Z Bike: nnnno.
2017-02-24T07:12:50Z athan: where the two arguments are a list of arguments
2017-02-24T07:12:53Z halogenandtoast: just a symbol at that point.
2017-02-24T07:12:53Z beach: athan: (X) is a list with a single element, the symbol X.
2017-02-24T07:12:57Z athan: and the second is its body?
2017-02-24T07:13:04Z Zhivago: Back in the dark ages, lisp interpreters operated directly on lists like that.
2017-02-24T07:13:15Z beach: athan: X is the symbol named "X".
2017-02-24T07:13:16Z Zhivago: If you understand that, it may become more obvious.
2017-02-24T07:13:18Z halogenandtoast: (quote (lambda (x) x)) is the same as (LAMBDA (X) X)
2017-02-24T07:13:26Z Bike: ugh, too many cooks
2017-02-24T07:13:32Z halogenandtoast: sorry Bike
2017-02-24T07:13:35Z beach: halogenandtoast: It is not.
2017-02-24T07:13:42Z athan: Zhivago: I might be a bit primitive :)
2017-02-24T07:13:43Z halogenandtoast: * the list
2017-02-24T07:13:46Z beach: halogenandtoast: Please be more precise if you are going to help.
2017-02-24T07:13:58Z athan: ahhh, thanks halogenandtoast `
2017-02-24T07:14:12Z athan: Bike: too many cooks on the dancefloor :D
2017-02-24T07:14:30Z beach: athan: You may want to take what halogenandtoast says with a grain of salt, until he or she uses the right terminology.
2017-02-24T07:14:45Z Bike: lambda is an operator. it's not a function, because functions have their arguments evaluated normally.
2017-02-24T07:14:46Z halogenandtoast: I tried to fix my terminology
2017-02-24T07:15:04Z athan: (quote (lambda (x) x)) => (LAMBDA, (x), x)?
2017-02-24T07:15:12Z Bike: i.e. (lambda (x) x) would call the function lambda with two arguments, the first of which is the result of calling the function named x, and the second of which is the value of the variable x. which would be silly
2017-02-24T07:15:14Z beach: athan: (quote (lambda (x) x)) and (lambda (x) x) are definitely not the same.
2017-02-24T07:15:34Z athan: Bike: where "normally" means... strict evaluation?
2017-02-24T07:15:42Z Bike: lisp is strict, yes.
2017-02-24T07:15:45Z athan: (arguments are syntactically reduced)
2017-02-24T07:15:48Z athan: ahh! okay
2017-02-24T07:16:11Z Bike: but i mean, it's like that in haskell too. if you write \x -> x you don't expect the value of x in the surrounding context to matter.
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2017-02-24T07:17:29Z athan: Bike: there are 0-arity functions? ?_?
2017-02-24T07:17:40Z Bike: in lisp? sure
2017-02-24T07:17:53Z athan: :o ohh wow okay
2017-02-24T07:18:02Z Zhivago: (Of course, they're really procedures)
2017-02-24T07:18:07Z Bike: since lisp is strict, 0 ary functions can be useful for delaying evaluation
2017-02-24T07:18:09Z athan: constructed with `(lambda () foo)`?
2017-02-24T07:18:14Z Bike: yeah
2017-02-24T07:18:20Z athan: !! okay wow
2017-02-24T07:18:34Z athan: how are lists represented?
2017-02-24T07:18:37Z halogenandtoast: could you also do: (defun foo () 10)
2017-02-24T07:18:38Z athan: (a b c d)?
2017-02-24T07:18:42Z Bike: pairs, like haskell
2017-02-24T07:18:48Z Bike: called "conses"
2017-02-24T07:18:50Z athan: defun? hmm
2017-02-24T07:18:55Z athan: ahh!
2017-02-24T07:19:00Z halogenandtoast: I'm asking a question to avoid being wrong.
2017-02-24T07:19:01Z beach: halogenandtoast: (quote (lambda (x) x)), when taken to be a FORM, can be EVALUATED to produce (lambda (x) x).
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2017-02-24T07:19:08Z Bike: (a b c d) is short for (a . (b . (c . (d . ()))))
2017-02-24T07:19:09Z athan: is there a way to "case match" against data structures like that?
2017-02-24T07:19:25Z Bike: there are matching libraries, but it's not as embedded in the language as in haskell.
2017-02-24T07:19:39Z Bike: you can deconstruct them with calls, of course.
2017-02-24T07:19:39Z beach: halogenandtoast: That doesn't mean that (quote (lambda (x) x)) "is the same as" (lambda (x) x).
2017-02-24T07:19:47Z Bike: (first '(a b c d)) => A
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2017-02-24T07:20:45Z athan: Bike: where . is function composition? :s
2017-02-24T07:20:52Z Bike: no, pairing
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2017-02-24T07:21:04Z athan: oh!!! okay
2017-02-24T07:21:13Z halogenandtoast: beach: I meant to say it was the same as the list '(LAMBDA (X) X) :(
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2017-02-24T07:22:02Z halogenandtoast: it's hard to undo though, once my message is sent, I am forever shamed.
2017-02-24T07:22:25Z Bike: athan: right, . is like haskell :
2017-02-24T07:22:30Z Bike: been a while since i haskelled
2017-02-24T07:22:38Z beach: halogenandtoast: Again, be more careful with terminology.  '(lambda (x) x) is a sequence of characters that, when processed by READ usually turns it into the expression (quote (lambda (x) x)).
2017-02-24T07:23:10Z halogenandtoast: beach: So it's not a list...
2017-02-24T07:23:21Z halogenandtoast: ?
2017-02-24T07:23:31Z beach: halogenandtoast: It depends on your definition of "is".
2017-02-24T07:23:53Z athan: halogenandtoast: I appreciate you conceptual assistance at least :)
2017-02-24T07:23:54Z beach: halogenandtoast: the character ' is defined only as a reader macro.
2017-02-24T07:23:56Z halogenandtoast: beach: Is that you Clinton?
2017-02-24T07:24:11Z athan: Bike: haskellifiezing :v
2017-02-24T07:24:21Z Bike: indeed.
2017-02-24T07:24:53Z beach just lost the desire to be of assistance.
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2017-02-24T07:25:01Z Bike: there's a little difference in that in haskell, something like 4:5 is banned, but (4 . 5) is ok in lisp. it's called a "dotted list" cos there's a dot. but most lists end normally with ().
2017-02-24T07:25:13Z athan: beach: thank you for your help regardless :)
2017-02-24T07:25:26Z athan isomorphic though the identity morphism :v
2017-02-24T07:26:05Z athan: Bike: Is that just sugar? I can appreciate that
2017-02-24T07:26:22Z athan says so with disdainful liberalism >.>
2017-02-24T07:26:22Z halogenandtoast: beach: I'm sorry if I was offensive. It just reminded me of the good ol' "It depends on what your definition of is is?" from Bill Cliton.
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2017-02-24T07:26:25Z halogenandtoast: *Clinton
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2017-02-24T07:26:26Z Bike: (a b c) is sugar for (a . (b . (c . ()))) if you meant that
2017-02-24T07:26:45Z athan: Killton :x
2017-02-24T07:27:22Z athan: Bike: Same with how `(a . b . c) => (a . (b . (c . ())))`?
2017-02-24T07:27:28Z aeth: technically NIL not ()
2017-02-24T07:27:35Z athan: ahh hm!
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2017-02-24T07:27:40Z Bike: athan: (a . b . d) is illegal syntax, actually.
2017-02-24T07:27:46Z aeth: if you're going to say that ' is technically (quote )
2017-02-24T07:28:07Z Bike: . is a binary operator and parentheses have to be explicit, i guess.
2017-02-24T07:28:22Z Bike: aeth: () is valid. i don't want to add in nil being a symbol.
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2017-02-24T07:30:53Z athan: ahh okay, thank you aeth & Bike!
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2017-02-24T07:31:03Z halogenandtoast: beach: since you didn't respond to my apology, I'll go a step further and thank you for you assistance. I'm not around enough lispers so my knowledge and application are maybe more topological (and wrong) then it should be if I'm to attempt helping someone.
2017-02-24T07:31:11Z athan hopes to be "there is no spoon" soon
2017-02-24T07:32:03Z beach: halogenandtoast: I understand.  Apology accepted.
2017-02-24T07:32:20Z athan: halogenandtoast: "thou aret-th-ed totes mcgotally lameski"
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2017-02-24T07:32:53Z athan pressed enter too quickly NO NOT THE STICK
2017-02-24T07:32:56Z athan: sorry ._.
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2017-02-24T07:33:10Z halogenandtoast: I have no idea what just happened?
2017-02-24T07:33:21Z athan: time just happened B|
2017-02-24T07:33:39Z athan: thank you for your help halogenandtoast
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2017-02-24T07:35:19Z halogenandtoast: No problem, my terminology will be improved for next time.
2017-02-24T07:35:39Z halogenandtoast: that or I'll avoid speaking up all together.
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2017-02-24T07:36:07Z halogenandtoast: * if I don't actually know
2017-02-24T07:36:15Z halogenandtoast: but sometimes it's hard to know what you actually know
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2017-02-24T07:38:05Z beach: halogenandtoast: There are a lot of very knowledgeable people here on #lisp, and Bike is one of them, so it is worthwhile paying attention.  Getting the terminology right is not trivial, but it is essential for good communication.
2017-02-24T07:39:47Z halogenandtoast: Right, I understand that. But it's hard to test out whether my terminology is right/wrong without testing it out.
2017-02-24T07:39:55Z halogenandtoast: Here I was wrong and I apologize for it.
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2017-02-24T07:41:15Z halogenandtoast: I'm currently reading over: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2017-02-24T07:41:18Z halogenandtoast: might help some.
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2017-02-24T07:51:28Z halogenandtoast: beach: Out of curiosity why the two spaces after periods. As far as I knew, that was an artifact of typewritter days.
2017-02-24T07:51:56Z pjb: 1- we still use non-proportional fonts.
2017-02-24T07:52:37Z pjb: 2- emacs interprets dot space space as end of sentence, not dot space.  It change behavior for cursor moving operations and justification operations.
2017-02-24T07:53:41Z halogenandtoast: 1) Can't we stop doing that and/or not care, 2) Can't emacs be configured to change it's behaviour?
2017-02-24T07:53:51Z halogenandtoast: *its
2017-02-24T07:54:15Z halogenandtoast: To be honest I don't understand the importance of #1
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2017-02-24T07:54:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's the reason why double spaces were used on typewriters
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2017-02-24T07:55:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: As far as (2) goes, treating sentence and word endings differently is _desirable_ behavior in a text editor, so you'd have to come up with an alternative notation, which would be much more distracting.
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2017-02-24T07:56:02Z joga wonders why he doesn't have such a "problem"
2017-02-24T07:56:23Z pjb: halogenandtoast: try:  Hello I.B.M. computer builder.  I'm fine A.F.A.I.K.  Good bye. Hello I.B.M. computer builder. I'm fine A.F.A.I.K. Good bye.  C-a M-e M-e M-e
2017-02-24T07:56:46Z halogenandtoast: pjb: I don't use emacs. Seems to eliminate this problem for me :p.
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2017-02-24T07:57:11Z pjb: It doesn't eliminate the problem.  Ignoring them don't eliminate them.
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2017-02-24T07:57:57Z joga: personally I consider double space an error of sorts
2017-02-24T07:58:16Z halogenandtoast: Same
2017-02-24T07:58:18Z pjb: joga: HTML just ignores multiple spaces.
2017-02-24T07:58:23Z halogenandtoast: "The Complete Manual on Typography (2003) states that "The typewriter tradition of separating sentences with two word spaces after a period has no place in typesetting" and the single space is "standard typographic practice"."
2017-02-24T07:58:29Z joga: I don't do html much :)
2017-02-24T07:58:34Z pjb: joga: so if your editor is not able to take them into account, or to ignore them, then bad editor, change editor.
2017-02-24T07:58:42Z joga: err
2017-02-24T07:58:46Z pjb: HTML solves the problem with </p>.
2017-02-24T07:59:03Z pjb: You can use an WYSIWYG HTML editor.
2017-02-24T07:59:06Z joga: not sure if I follow
2017-02-24T07:59:30Z halogenandtoast: "The Elements of Typographic Style (2004) advocates a single space between sentences, noting that "your typing as well as your typesetting will benefit from unlearning this quaint [double spacing] Victorian habit"."
2017-02-24T08:00:14Z halogenandtoast: I guess two spaces is my trigger. Oh well.
2017-02-24T08:00:39Z pjb: typography distinguishes spaces of different widths.  If you're ready to deal with half-spaces, normal spaces and wide spaces, then you can forget the double space.
2017-02-24T08:01:03Z halogenandtoast: I was born ready.
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2017-02-24T08:01:45Z joga: I'll just let latex or whatever handle the formatting, but when I type plain text like email or code or whatever, I certainly do not need to care about typography or "half-spaces" or the sorts
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2017-02-24T08:02:48Z pjb: But you don't need to care because your HTML rendering UA will adjust the word spacing in function of the justification and typographic rules, not in function of the actual number of SPC codes in the data.
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2017-02-24T08:02:57Z joga: html rendering ua?
2017-02-24T08:03:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, if you're writing a paper in Latex, it's useful to have the "jump forward a sentence" command work
2017-02-24T08:03:10Z pjb: Hyper Text Markup Language rendering User Agent.
2017-02-24T08:03:26Z joga: eh... I'm using gnome-terminal with tmux and irssi
2017-02-24T08:03:37Z joga: I don't irc via html
2017-02-24T08:04:27Z halogenandtoast: same I'm using irssi via terminal
2017-02-24T08:04:29Z joga: I think of text as in its contents, not its representation
2017-02-24T08:04:51Z pjb: In this context, double spaces are very useful to distinguish end of sentences from random TLA ending dot.
2017-02-24T08:05:06Z joga: but I guess I'm obviously misunderstanding something here
2017-02-24T08:05:11Z joga shrugs
2017-02-24T08:05:23Z pjb: Exactly.  Bare "ASCII" text still has a representation different from its content.
2017-02-24T08:06:06Z halogenandtoast: I feel like asking 2-spacers why they do it, is like asking some Americans why they supported Trump
2017-02-24T08:06:15Z halogenandtoast: no matter what they say I'll assume they're wrong and crazy
2017-02-24T08:06:19Z halogenandtoast: even if they have their own reasons
2017-02-24T08:06:30Z halogenandtoast: and that's partially my fault.
2017-02-24T08:06:42Z parjanya: haven’t heard of emacs interpreting ⟨.  ⟩ as the end of a sentence before, interesting
2017-02-24T08:07:15Z pjb: M. is a M.I.5 agent.  I work with M. Watson and Bill, all are nice guys.
2017-02-24T08:07:15Z pjb: M. is a M.I.5 agent.  I work with M.  Watson and Bill, all are nice guys.
2017-02-24T08:07:34Z halogenandtoast: pbj: Both of those sentences are unreadable to me
2017-02-24T08:07:48Z pjb: In the first line, I work with Mister Watson and Bill.  In the second line, I work with M.
2017-02-24T08:07:58Z halogenandtoast: M. is an M.I.5 agent. I with with M. Watson and Bill - all are nice guys.
2017-02-24T08:08:00Z joga: why would you refer to them as "all"
2017-02-24T08:08:08Z halogenandtoast: I fixed the grammar and spacing.
2017-02-24T08:08:08Z joga: well, whatever :)
2017-02-24T08:08:21Z pjb: You didn't I work with M., not with Watson!
2017-02-24T08:08:22Z parjanya: pjb: it makes all the sense, though it looks odd
2017-02-24T08:08:24Z joga: this is obviously a self-inflicted problem
2017-02-24T08:08:45Z halogenandtoast: joga: Aren't they all.
2017-02-24T08:08:49Z pjb: Then you don't use TLAs and other abreviations othen enough.
2017-02-24T08:08:59Z halogenandtoast: pjb: Well I hate abbreviations.
2017-02-24T08:09:13Z halogenandtoast: So I think I use them just the right amount.
2017-02-24T08:09:14Z joga: I try to write text that is legible
2017-02-24T08:09:34Z parjanya: as for the double ſpaces, I deſpiſe all thoſe old-faſhioned things : o )
2017-02-24T08:09:51Z halogenandtoast: parjanya: Well played sir.
2017-02-24T08:10:10Z halogenandtoast: Wasn't th a single character at some point too.
2017-02-24T08:10:27Z parjanya: þ ð, I tried not to overkill :-o
2017-02-24T08:10:29Z Zhivago: 'thorn' was.
2017-02-24T08:10:32Z halogenandtoast: Þ
2017-02-24T08:10:35Z halogenandtoast: yeah
2017-02-24T08:10:46Z halogenandtoast: Why did we get rid of that, it was so awesome!
2017-02-24T08:11:08Z parjanya: I do like it too! and the Gothic ƕ for hw/wh
2017-02-24T08:11:16Z parjanya: ƕo is ðat?
2017-02-24T08:11:51Z pjb: See for example: http://www.graphicvertigo.com/elephant/les-regles-typographiques-de-la-ponctuation-francaise-episode-01/
2017-02-24T08:12:12Z loke: parjanya: I have never ſeen ðat letter: ƕ
2017-02-24T08:12:15Z beach: halogenandtoast: Old habit.
2017-02-24T08:12:32Z halogenandtoast: beach: I applaud your answer.
2017-02-24T08:12:34Z beach: halogenandtoast: I think Emacs might recognize two spaces as being a sentence separator.
2017-02-24T08:12:34Z loke: Was it actually uſed?
2017-02-24T08:12:37Z halogenandtoast: Its the best one so far!
2017-02-24T08:12:40Z halogenandtoast: *It's
2017-02-24T08:12:46Z parjanya: loke: very rare indeed, just in some editions of Gothic, the language
2017-02-24T08:13:00Z pjb: The rules involve 3 different kinds of spaces.  The non-breaking space, the justifying space, and the fine space (half space).
2017-02-24T08:13:04Z beach: halogenandtoast: What pjb said.  Another very knowledgeable #lisp participant.
2017-02-24T08:13:16Z parjanya: loke: it was used, but not for Englsh itself
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2017-02-24T08:13:52Z loke: I never really underſtood why the long S was uſed.
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2017-02-24T08:14:11Z pjb: loke: quills.
2017-02-24T08:14:35Z loke: pjb: Easier, or prettier to draw?
2017-02-24T08:14:45Z halogenandtoast: Basically, writing evolved with the instruments. Except double spaces, some people still do that for weird reasons.
2017-02-24T08:14:55Z pjb: easier. It's difficult to change directions like in a S with quills.
2017-02-24T08:15:06Z loke: Oh, I see
2017-02-24T08:15:11Z parjanya: loke: our ⟨s⟩ descends from the romana capitalis rustica, the... more official calligraphic hand of the Romans; ſ descends from the roman cursive, which is sloppier
2017-02-24T08:15:56Z beach: halogenandtoast: What I type to Emacs usually has very little to do with how it is ultimately typeset.  Consider it to be some small markup language that allows me to use more Emacs commands than I would otherwise be able to.
2017-02-24T08:16:16Z parjanya: also I suspect the Romans liked to have two versions of ⟨s⟩ just as the Greeks, and it’s used about the same way: ς at the end, σ everywhere else
2017-02-24T08:16:27Z halogenandtoast: beach: That's fair. It's just very difficult for me to read.
2017-02-24T08:16:32Z halogenandtoast: Triggers my dyslexia.
2017-02-24T08:16:37Z pjb: That is, with transversal lines, one side of the quill may hang on the paper, and then splash the ink when released.  For vertical lines it's nice.  Hence the 𝔤𝔬𝔱𝔥𝔦𝔠 𝔰𝔱𝔶𝔩𝔢.
2017-02-24T08:16:41Z parjanya: it is ugly : /
2017-02-24T08:18:05Z pjb: parjanya: they used terminal letter variants (in Hebrew too), because they didn't have invented the space yet!
2017-02-24T08:18:12Z pjb: (and neither the final dot).
2017-02-24T08:18:39Z loke: Like Thai
2017-02-24T08:18:41Z pjb: Also, they didn't want the space, because it was a waste of (expensinve) papyrus or parchment space.
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2017-02-24T08:19:33Z parjanya: 𝔦’𝔳𝔢 𝔴𝔯𝔦𝔱𝔱𝔢𝔫 𝔞 𝔩𝔦𝔱𝔱𝔩𝔢 𝔣𝔲𝔫𝔠𝔱𝔦𝔬𝔫 𝔦𝔫 𝔢𝔪𝔞𝔠𝔰 𝔧𝔲𝔰𝔱 𝔣𝔬𝔯 𝔱𝔥𝔞𝔱
2017-02-24T08:19:34Z pjb: So you should on the contrary, be very grateful that you have so much resources that you can add any number of spaces you want beween your sentences!
2017-02-24T08:19:53Z parjanya: pjb: ah, never thought of that! quite right
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2017-02-24T08:20:10Z pjb: parjanya: https://github.com/informatimago/emacs/blob/master/pjb-unicode.el
2017-02-24T08:20:19Z loke: Yeah, that can be seen in cuneiform tablets. They really squeezed in a lot of text there:
2017-02-24T08:20:20Z loke: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_86.11.286a.jpg
2017-02-24T08:20:27Z pjb: parjanya: still needs some tuning.
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2017-02-24T08:21:23Z parjanya: yours also works by adding something to the unicode codepoint... and it’s definately more comprehensive than mine :))
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2017-02-24T08:22:12Z parjanya: I had a year of Hittite at university, reading cuneiform and all... that was a pain
2017-02-24T08:22:59Z halogenandtoast: Is there a good non-GNU version of emacs?
2017-02-24T08:23:26Z pjb: halogenandtoast: there's a FAQ in comp.emacs which lists all the emacs clones.  There are some nice ones indeed.
2017-02-24T08:23:52Z pjb: bbl
2017-02-24T08:24:24Z halogenandtoast: thanks pjb
2017-02-24T08:24:36Z beach: athan, halogenandtoast: More terminology: The term "S-expression" (or usually just "expression") sometimes refers to any sequence of characters that the Common Lisp function READ can process, and sometimes to a nested structure made up of CONS cells and ATOMs.  The Common Lisp function READ is responsible for taking the first and producing the second.
2017-02-24T08:24:43Z beach: Sometimes, an expression is meant to be Common Lisp code, or, as we say, meant to be evaluated.  Then the expression is said to be a "form" which is usually only used for the data structure.  A form can be a literal, a variable, or a compound form.  It is a compound form when it is a CONS cell.
2017-02-24T08:24:50Z beach: A compound form can be a function call, a macro call, or a special form.  Special forms and macros have their own syntax restrictions.
2017-02-24T08:24:52Z beach: It is therefore fair to say that Common Lisp has a two-level syntax.  The first level restricts the sequence of characters that READ can handle.  The second level is an enumeration of the data structures that are acceptable to special operators, macros, and standard functions.
2017-02-24T08:26:24Z halogenandtoast: That is very terminologically dense.
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2017-02-24T08:27:23Z halogenandtoast: But as such, this definition of S-exp might not apply to non-Common-Lisp lisps.
2017-02-24T08:27:37Z antoszka: halogenandtoast: depending what you mean by „good”
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2017-02-24T08:28:29Z beach: halogenandtoast: There was a more restricted definition of "S-expression" already when LISP was invented.  The definition above is a generalization of that.
2017-02-24T08:28:53Z beach: halogenandtoast: But since this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, the more restrictive definition is only of historical interest.
2017-02-24T08:30:15Z halogenandtoast: The less restrictive definition makes it far harder to talk about.     Having to refer to anything as a sequence of characters sounds like nonce to me.    I'd at least prefer having a term to generalize it outside of having to talk about READ.  But that might just be wishful thinking.
2017-02-24T08:31:36Z halogenandtoast: Does such a term exist?
2017-02-24T08:31:48Z parjanya: four spaces now ; ))
2017-02-24T08:32:05Z halogenandtoast: A generalization of (function (params) body).     That way I can use the correct terminology.
2017-02-24T08:32:26Z beach: halogenandtoast: Are you saying that "sequence of characters" is problematic?  That is typically what a file contains, or at least in some encoded form.
2017-02-24T08:32:30Z aeth: ugh.  lisp uses two spaces,  not four spaces or tabs.
2017-02-24T08:33:41Z beach: halogenandtoast: The Common Lisp function READ calls the Common Lisp function READ-CHAR.  When I say "sequence of characters" I mean the successive results of calling that function.
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2017-02-24T08:33:57Z halogenandtoast: beach: In my perfect world a file either contains Text or Binary.    Having to say it contains a sequence of characters sounds clinical or text book.  When I sit down and talk with my programming friends in general, I don't want to say "sequence of character" ever in my life.       Just a personal preference I guess.
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2017-02-24T08:34:40Z joga: but Text is just binary that makes sense
2017-02-24T08:34:41Z joga: ;)
2017-02-24T08:35:18Z beach: halogenandtoast: Actually, a Unix file (which is what most of us use these days) does not contain text.  It contains some encoding (say UTF-8) of a sequence of characters.
2017-02-24T08:35:36Z halogenandtoast: In Haskell Text includes the encoding :p.
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2017-02-24T08:35:50Z beach: This is not #haskell.
2017-02-24T08:35:55Z halogenandtoast: String is the non-encoded type.
2017-02-24T08:36:06Z beach: There is no type named TEXT in Common Lisp.
2017-02-24T08:36:19Z halogenandtoast: I'm aware, but again I will never sit my friend down and say, this is a UTF-8 encoded sequence of characters.
2017-02-24T08:36:21Z beach: A STRING in Common Lisp is a sequence of characters.
2017-02-24T08:36:48Z beach: In fact, it is a VECTOR of characters, where VECTOR is a subtype of SEQUENCE.
2017-02-24T08:37:04Z halogenandtoast: Again we're in text book territory.
2017-02-24T08:37:24Z beach: No, this is just Common Lisp HyperSpec terminology.
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2017-02-24T08:39:47Z halogenandtoast: See, everytime I hear and see lisp, I think. Why isn't this more popular. Why aren't we using this, it's amazing. But the factor now for me is that the people inside seem to care too much about the things that I don't care about. Maybe that means I'm a bad fit for lisp and I should move on elsewhere.
2017-02-24T08:40:10Z beach: Yeah, probably so.
2017-02-24T08:40:56Z halogenandtoast: And there it is, one less lisper in the world. A chance to help extinguished.
2017-02-24T08:41:57Z beach: I doubt it.
2017-02-24T08:42:13Z beach: "fewer".  Less stuff, fewer things.  Another thing you probably don't care about.
2017-02-24T08:42:25Z joga: why so high-horsy?
2017-02-24T08:45:33Z beach: joga: Beats me.  I would think that someone new to a community would have more respect for things they care about.  I would.
2017-02-24T08:47:15Z edgar-rft: halogenandtoast: If you extraxt a single character from a text, will the character still contain the encoding? Will this character be different to a character extracted from a string? Will there be text-characters with encoding and string-characters without encoding? Wouldn't this complicate everything? I don't want to annoy you, but I don't see the advantage.
2017-02-24T08:47:52Z halogenandtoast: edgar-rft: speaking to real human beings is different than referencing standards. Not every conversation has to be in the context of some standard.
2017-02-24T08:48:01Z halogenandtoast: Sometimes it's helpful sure.
2017-02-24T08:48:24Z halogenandtoast: But I don't want every explaination to be a tome of knowledge I'm not prepaired to understand
2017-02-24T08:48:33Z halogenandtoast: Sometimes you have to make building blocks out of abstractions
2017-02-24T08:48:40Z halogenandtoast: and sometimes those abstractions are half-truths
2017-02-24T08:48:49Z halogenandtoast: But that's a foundational element of learning and education.
2017-02-24T08:49:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: I've generally found that beach's advice on terminology helps me figure out what's going on behind the scenes better
2017-02-24T08:49:24Z halogenandtoast: fiddlerwoaroof: Perhaps you have a larger understanding from where I'm sitting.
2017-02-24T08:50:05Z halogenandtoast: I don't think what beach has said is at all wrong or not useful. It just isn't useful to me right now.
2017-02-24T08:51:14Z parjanya: it’s a very delicate position to complain because someone is trying to help
2017-02-24T08:52:48Z halogenandtoast: parjanya: Sure, and I'm sure my reputation on #lisp is forever tarnished, but at some point there has to be some understand of how to ween someone on to lisp.
2017-02-24T08:53:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: halogenandtoast: one of the big lies is that there's anything that's "just text"
2017-02-24T08:53:05Z halogenandtoast: But again that was probably not beach's goal.
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2017-02-24T08:53:17Z halogenandtoast: so it was a little unfair.
2017-02-24T08:53:47Z halogenandtoast: fiddlerwoaroof: I'm fine with that lie until it matters.
2017-02-24T08:54:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm just pointing out that your ideal world where you have text files and binary files is impossible
2017-02-24T08:54:33Z halogenandtoast: When I ask how a clock works, I don't need to know how smelting works.
2017-02-24T08:54:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Because a text file is just a binary file that has been interpreted into some useful format
2017-02-24T08:54:34Z parjanya: I’m a newbie just as you are, I suppose, and all those detais do help me... a lot. I guess you also have this urgency to write something and get on with it, but it seems lisp doesn’t quite work like that
2017-02-24T08:54:54Z joga: beach, I was talking about you
2017-02-24T08:54:58Z halogenandtoast: parjanya: I'm not currently writing anything in lisp. I dabble in it from time to time.
2017-02-24T08:55:07Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, if you want a good introduction to writing to lisp, you might check out pcl
2017-02-24T08:55:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: tell halogenandtoast and parjanya about pcl
2017-02-24T08:55:19Z minion: halogenandtoast: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
2017-02-24T08:55:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: minion: tell halogenandtoast  about pcl
2017-02-24T08:55:28Z minion: halogenandtoast: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2017-02-24T08:55:39Z parjanya: I’m reading it already, fiddlerwoaroof, tx :)
2017-02-24T08:56:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: That's one of the best programming language introductions I've read, along with Leo Brodie's Starting Forth and (a while ago) Real World Haskell/Ocaml
2017-02-24T08:56:45Z halogenandtoast: fiddlerwoaroof: We have a pretty common joke in the haskell community about monads - "A monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors"
2017-02-24T08:56:54Z parjanya: I end up in the hyperspec, in a Platonic mood about Being and atoms &c
2017-02-24T08:56:59Z halogenandtoast: that statement is pure truth, but it doesn't always help
2017-02-24T08:57:19Z halogenandtoast: I will read that book though
2017-02-24T08:57:20Z joga: (does it ever help?)
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2017-02-24T08:57:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: halogenandtoast: yeah, heard that one before. Haskellers seem to be a bit notorious about complicated terminology ;)
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2017-02-24T08:58:32Z halogenandtoast: fiddlerwoaroof: but all these terms are "important"
2017-02-24T08:59:04Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not really, in most of the cases they're just fancy words for simple concepts :)
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2017-02-24T09:00:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, also, it's generally important to use words the way the group of people you're talking to uses them
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2017-02-24T09:00:49Z halogenandtoast: fiddlerwoaroof: Sure I agree a common language for describing things is important.
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2017-02-24T09:03:10Z Bike: is this up to arguing about how to argue about proper terminology, yet
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2017-02-24T09:04:42Z joga: soon
2017-02-24T09:04:46Z halogenandtoast: Bike: I'm done to be honest, I got frustrated and went about it the wrong way. In my frustration I thought maybe lisp wasn't for me because I wouldn't fit in with the community and beach in his frustration with me was happy to confirm.
2017-02-24T09:05:11Z halogenandtoast: That's entirely my perception of his actions
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2017-02-24T09:05:21Z halogenandtoast: and may not be in accordance with his feelings.
2017-02-24T09:05:26Z halogenandtoast: his/her
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2017-02-24T09:06:17Z halogenandtoast: If I stick around, I won't do it again.
2017-02-24T09:06:59Z halogenandtoast: But I feel like I'm far less likely to get any help now anyways. As it seems you and Beach are fairly knowledgeable and I've essentially "shat where I eat"
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2017-02-24T09:07:52Z Bike: i have very little emotional energy, so i try to spend none of it on arguments about syntax or whatever. if you ask something about lisp i'll answer.
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2017-02-24T09:09:20Z halogenandtoast: Anyways I'm sorry to the channel for essentially creating a toxic environment, at least this isn't #c
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2017-02-24T09:11:00Z antoszka: halogenandtoast: just idle around for a while – this is actually a very on-topic practical and helpful channel.
2017-02-24T09:11:18Z antoszka: halogenandtoast: besides, you didn't say what you mean by a “good” emacs.
2017-02-24T09:11:57Z antoszka: and what's wrong with the GNU one (a lot is wrong with it, but we don't know what bothers you in particular)
2017-02-24T09:11:57Z halogenandtoast: antoszka: At this point, it's one that doesn't use lisp for configuration :p
2017-02-24T09:12:24Z halogenandtoast: antoszka: I'm just not a fan of the GNU license.
2017-02-24T09:12:49Z antoszka: does it restrict you actually *using* the editor?
2017-02-24T09:13:09Z halogenandtoast: Not really, to be honest I was just wondering.
2017-02-24T09:13:24Z halogenandtoast: More of a curiosity than anything else.
2017-02-24T09:13:36Z halogenandtoast: Is there a generally liked emacs outside of GNU emacs.
2017-02-24T09:13:56Z halogenandtoast: (it can still use elisp for configuration)
2017-02-24T09:14:05Z easye has a tape with TEMACS
2017-02-24T09:14:12Z antoszka: i'm not a fan of the Photoshop license, but I use it, because it does the job I bought it for :). Not really, most of the stuff we find useful for Lisp programming only works in GNU emacs as far as I know
2017-02-24T09:14:47Z antoszka: Including SLIME.
2017-02-24T09:15:03Z halogenandtoast: antoszka: Any thoughts on the potential of remacs?
2017-02-24T09:15:18Z antoszka: Haven't looked at it any closer yet.
2017-02-24T09:15:56Z halogenandtoast: Fair enough.
2017-02-24T09:16:14Z antoszka: I'd love to have a useful climacs one day (which I think, incidentally, is one of the things beach is working on)
2017-02-24T09:16:36Z sirkmatija_: maybe a bit offtopic, but what minor/major modes do you use for lisp programming in emacs? I only use slime, paredit and rainbow-delimiters in addition to what gnu emacs uses by default for lisp files.
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2017-02-24T09:18:26Z halogenandtoast: sirkmatija_: I'd say it's perfectly on topic.
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2017-02-24T09:18:33Z halogenandtoast: I've only ever used those.
2017-02-24T09:18:33Z fiddlerwoaroof: Evil-paredit Evil-surround Paredit Slime, more or less
2017-02-24T09:19:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: With a half page or so of custom evil keybindings for paredit
2017-02-24T09:19:24Z sirkmatija_: is this part of evil-mode, isn't that some kind of vim mode for emacs?
2017-02-24T09:19:47Z halogenandtoast: sirkmatija_: it basically adds an editor to emacs
2017-02-24T09:19:50Z easye: sirkmatija_: Not really related to Common Lisp editing ipso facto, but having a "fuzzy" completion minor mode like ido for unifying buffers/files is a key part of my Emacs workflow.
2017-02-24T09:20:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: easye: is ido basically equivalent to helm, or does it add anything?
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2017-02-24T09:22:07Z antoszka: halogenandtoast: i've actually been enjoying spacemacs more or less since the dawn of the project
2017-02-24T09:22:16Z easye: Roughly equivalent in functionality, but I have not done a review of helm to compare (I migrated to ido from something else that was being obsoleted that I cannot remember right now)
2017-02-24T09:22:21Z antoszka: fiddlerwoaroof: more or less similar
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2017-02-24T09:22:39Z halogenandtoast: antoszka: I used it for a bit, I liked it, but then I decided I should learn what it's doing for me and configured my own emacs instance
2017-02-24T09:22:59Z halogenandtoast: https://gist.github.com/halogenandtoast/e512470e0f77e925b60ad3b4ae92ca36
2017-02-24T09:23:27Z fiddlerwoaroof: I actually find paredit useful in non-lisp modes
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2017-02-24T09:30:48Z antoszka: yeah, ningle seems a better take (with the same „caveats”)
2017-02-24T09:31:03Z antoszka: I used ningle for a small company project and enjoyed it much
2017-02-24T09:31:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: I like treating ningle as a compilation target :)
2017-02-24T09:32:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: The wookie web server also has a pretty good web framework, if you use it directly
2017-02-24T09:32:57Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://wookie.lyonbros.com/docs
2017-02-24T09:33:20Z halogenandtoast: Do you guys know of any open source websites using any of these frameworks.
2017-02-24T09:33:28Z halogenandtoast: I'd like to see what one looks like.
2017-02-24T09:33:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: It even supports things like websockets and sse without tying up a thread
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2017-02-24T09:34:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/turtl/api
2017-02-24T09:34:48Z fiddlerwoaroof: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
2017-02-24T09:35:01Z sirkmatija_: hey about ningle, how do you serve static files? do you just put them into /www directory like with hunchentoot?
2017-02-24T09:35:16Z halogenandtoast: fiddlerwoaroof: thanks!
2017-02-24T09:36:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: sirkmatija_: I think you're supposed to use lack middleware for that
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2017-02-24T09:37:02Z sirkmatija_: okay, thank you
2017-02-24T09:37:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: sirkmatija_: https://github.com/fiddlerwoaroof/whitespace/blob/master/demo.lisp#L406
2017-02-24T09:37:26Z fiddlerwoaroof: That project is horrible in several ways, it was my very first biggish lisp project
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2017-02-24T09:42:40Z sirkmatija_: I am at the stage where all my projects are either horrible biggish or horrible smallish projects
2017-02-24T09:43:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Yeah, project architecture is surprisingly difficult, even at a fairly small scale
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2017-02-24T11:53:48Z parjanya: how do I open the second climacs in sbcl after having cloned the repository?
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2017-02-24T12:11:34Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm not sure if it's runnable, beach would know
2017-02-24T12:12:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Normal climacs does run and I've heard of people that use it, but I don't know how feature-complete it is
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2017-02-24T12:14:32Z parjanya: let me try the normal one then :)
2017-02-24T12:25:03Z phoe_: parjanya: it is somewhat runnable, although expect things to catch fire
2017-02-24T12:25:11Z phoe_: you might ask on #clim perhaps
2017-02-24T12:28:10Z parjanya: I’m mostly curious about the GUI... is there anything I can look to see how it works?
2017-02-24T12:29:06Z phoe_: There ought to be an exported symbol from the climacs package.
2017-02-24T12:29:13Z phoe_: Something like start, run, something like that.
2017-02-24T12:29:24Z phoe_: Load Climacs up and run that function.
2017-02-24T12:29:29Z parjanya: I mean, any program at all
2017-02-24T12:29:31Z phoe_: I need to run now - sorry that I can't help you directly.
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2017-02-24T12:29:45Z parjanya: I’m still chasing the Climacs source :)
2017-02-24T12:30:01Z parjanya: np no, I’m in no hurry, thanks anyway
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2017-02-24T13:43:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's under ~/quicklisp
2017-02-24T13:43:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: (if you quickload climacs)
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2017-02-24T13:47:13Z okflo: parjanya: (ql:quickload :climacs) then (climacs:climacs)
2017-02-24T13:48:42Z parjanya: okflo: doh, I was trying ql:load instead! tx
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2017-02-24T14:04:24Z beach: okflo: Thanks.
2017-02-24T14:04:32Z beach: parjanya: Did you manage to get it to run?
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2017-02-24T14:09:17Z parjanya: beach: yes! it runs fine, it’s quite a Spartan editor
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2017-02-24T14:10:05Z beach: I am hoping Second Climacs will be much better.  But it will take some time.
2017-02-24T14:10:35Z parjanya: what are you working in it nowadays?
2017-02-24T14:10:47Z parjanya: I’ve just found the source code here, exploring, of the first
2017-02-24T14:10:50Z beach: I am hoping to have a much better analyzer for Common Lisp code.
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2017-02-24T14:11:23Z beach: (First) Climacs is already a bit better than Emacs, but not enough for people to want to switch.
2017-02-24T14:11:25Z parjanya: yay climatics-rv :)
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2017-02-24T14:12:04Z parjanya: instead of evaluating code inside the editor I would use the REPL?
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2017-02-24T14:12:30Z beach: Not sure what you are asking.
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2017-02-24T14:13:18Z parjanya: I tried (insert "lalala") C-x C-e
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2017-02-24T14:13:51Z beach: I see.  I have made no attempt to make it Emacs compatible to that extent.
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2017-02-24T14:16:29Z parjanya: well, it will take a while to understand how it works
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2017-02-24T14:16:49Z beach: Sure.
2017-02-24T14:16:52Z parjanya: is there a way for me to run it and keep the sbcl repl?
2017-02-24T14:17:39Z beach: You should be able to say :new-process t.
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2017-02-24T14:24:31Z beach: (climacs:climacs :new-process t) that is
2017-02-24T14:25:18Z parjanya: uhum :) managed to do it, reading the source now
2017-02-24T14:28:21Z beach: There is a lot of code factoring in there.  It depends on McCLIM and a CLIM library called ESA (for Emacs-Style Application).
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2017-02-24T14:29:30Z beach: And it is not written the way I would write it today.  There is a lot of :USE going on, so it is hard to figure out where each symbol comes from, at least by just looking at the code.
2017-02-24T14:29:53Z beach: I started a project to clean it up, but it got too complicated.
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2017-02-24T14:31:11Z beach: So the code in this repository: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Climacs does not work and does not reflect what you get in Quicklisp.
2017-02-24T14:31:32Z beach: Quicklisp takes the code from common-lisp.net.
2017-02-24T14:31:35Z parjanya: I bet... that must be a work for a lot of people, not just a few
2017-02-24T14:31:53Z beach: Yes, quite a few people worked on it.  Notably Athas.
2017-02-24T14:32:18Z parjanya: in the old version or the new one?
2017-02-24T14:32:38Z beach: I am still talking about first Climacs.
2017-02-24T14:33:05Z beach: And in https://github.com/robert-strandh/Climacs it is still first Climacs, except a failed attempt to clean it up.
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2017-02-24T14:33:59Z beach: This repository: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs contains a very embryonic version of Second Climacs.  It can't easily be installed and executed yet.
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2017-02-24T14:34:27Z parjanya: that was the first one I looked into
2017-02-24T14:34:39Z beach: I see.
2017-02-24T14:34:55Z beach: Not at all what you got in Quicklisp.
2017-02-24T14:35:02Z parjanya: uhum
2017-02-24T14:35:12Z parjanya: what are you using for Climacs 2, gtk...?
2017-02-24T14:35:27Z beach: I am trying my best to make it independent of the GUI library.
2017-02-24T14:35:43Z beach: But the only reasonable library we have at the moment is still McCLIM.
2017-02-24T14:36:26Z parjanya: it’s my impression that X is very foreign to talk with using lisp, isn’t it?
2017-02-24T14:36:57Z beach: Not really.
2017-02-24T14:37:19Z beach: In fact, X11 has special adaptations for Lisp.
2017-02-24T14:38:00Z beach: An X11 resource is a 32-bit number, but it has a few bits guaranteed to be 0 so that it can be encoded as a Lisp fixnum.
2017-02-24T14:38:03Z parjanya: really? hmm
2017-02-24T14:38:16Z beach: Also, CLX uses the X11 wire protocol, so there is very little foreign code in there.
2017-02-24T14:38:37Z beach: Only code to open and close sockets is foreign as I recall.
2017-02-24T14:40:25Z parjanya: reading about it
2017-02-24T14:40:45Z beach: Now, (first) Climacs depends on McCLIM, and currently the CLX backend is the only one truly working for McCLIM, but there is work going on for a Windows backend, and also for a framebuffer backend that could be used with other display servers.
2017-02-24T14:41:13Z beach: In other words, McCLIM does not necessarily imply X11.
2017-02-24T14:42:29Z parjanya: I see, I want to dissect it and see how the window gets created and all that
2017-02-24T14:43:41Z beach: You are in for some work.  But we will help you out if you have questions.  For stuff like that, you may have better luck in the #clim channel.
2017-02-24T14:44:18Z parjanya: will do :) thank you, beach
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2017-02-24T14:44:24Z beach: Sure.
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2017-02-24T14:46:07Z beach: The CLX backend for McCLIM can currently work in two different ways.  The old way is that each CLIM sheet is mapped to an X11 windows.  The new way is that only a top-level window is created, and McCLIM is managing its own nested sheets.
2017-02-24T14:47:48Z parjanya: let me toil for a while first :)) I guess I should start with x11
2017-02-24T14:48:33Z beach: Yes, sure.  Ignore me.  I am just blabbing.  Taking advantage of the relative silence.
2017-02-24T14:49:01Z beach: It's the new way, because it is closer to what other display servers would offer, so the code that lets McCLIM control nested sheets needs to work well in order to enable us to created other backends.
2017-02-24T14:49:31Z parjanya: sheets are where the buttons, text areas &c are located, right?
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2017-02-24T14:49:54Z beach: Correct.  It is basically CLIM terminology for "window".
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2017-02-24T14:52:20Z beach: The code for CLX is currently maintained by sharplispers: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx
2017-02-24T14:53:19Z beach: ... and this is the current repository for McCLIM: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM
2017-02-24T14:54:54Z parjanya: so you take care of it as well
2017-02-24T14:54:56Z beach: jackdaniel, who is currently maintaining McCLIM, has done a great job factoring the code, fixing bugs, merging improvements from others, and also fixing CLX problems when they were encountered.
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2017-02-24T14:55:24Z beach: parjanya: Luckily, jackdaniel is doing all the work right now.
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2017-02-24T14:55:32Z beach: That way I can concentrate on other things.
2017-02-24T14:56:18Z parjanya: does the longevity of lisp code (in general) attract you?
2017-02-24T14:56:37Z parjanya: people invent fad languages every year, and here I’m browsing something from 1991
2017-02-24T14:56:45Z parjanya: (i guess)
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2017-02-24T15:02:37Z beach: Yes, we are very lucky that way.
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2017-02-24T15:20:11Z varjag: just the other day i loaded som textbook examples from late 1980s into sbcl, and they worked without modifications
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2017-02-24T15:21:24Z beach: Was it CLtL1 code?
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2017-02-24T15:27:16Z varjag: it was tanimoto ai book
2017-02-24T15:27:25Z varjag: certainly pre-ansi
2017-02-24T15:27:42Z beach: Yeah.  But it claimed to be Common Lisp?
2017-02-24T15:27:54Z beach: ... as opposed to Maclisp or something like that.
2017-02-24T15:28:04Z varjag: no it was distinctly common lisp
2017-02-24T15:28:11Z varjag: hang on i'll try to find the code
2017-02-24T15:28:57Z varjag: http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/18000379?q&sort=holdings+desc&_=1487950116513&versionId=39949380
2017-02-24T15:29:03Z varjag: well this book i think
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2017-02-24T15:29:21Z varjag: common lisp in the title
2017-02-24T15:30:01Z beach: Interesting.  I don't even own a copy of that book. :)
2017-02-24T15:30:27Z varjag: i do!
2017-02-24T15:30:38Z varjag: need to check which actual print edition i have
2017-02-24T15:30:41Z varjag: might be from 1990
2017-02-24T15:30:45Z varjag: still pre-ansi
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2017-02-24T17:51:08Z drmeister: I'm making progress running Cando/Clasp in a docker container.    But swank is closing the connection again and in slime I get this message:
2017-02-24T17:51:19Z drmeister: Error running 'timer `slime-process-available-input': (error "Selecting deleted buffer")
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2017-02-24T17:51:30Z drmeister: Any idea what that might be due to?
2017-02-24T17:51:56Z drmeister: Both ends are running slime/swank 2.19
2017-02-24T17:52:47Z drmeister: This happens when I run the docker container like this:
2017-02-24T17:53:06Z drmeister: docker run -p 4005:4005 drmeister/cando
2017-02-24T17:53:29Z drmeister: But NOT when I run it like the following - here it connects fine.
2017-02-24T17:53:36Z drmeister: docker run -p 4005:4005 -it drmeister/cando
2017-02-24T17:53:49Z drmeister: Perhaps swank needs an interactive terminal or something?
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2017-02-24T18:17:06Z fortitude: does it seem like a bad idea to generate gensyms at runtime to use as task/thread IDs?
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2017-02-24T18:17:22Z fortitude: it's not actually interning anything, but I don't think *GENSYM-COUNTER* is thread-safe
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2017-02-24T18:51:24Z pjb: fortitude: just use (incf *next-thread-id*) Why would you need to allocate a new symbol?
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2017-02-24T18:54:31Z fortitude: I assume for readability; I wrote this code quite some time ago, and can't recall exactly what I was thinking
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2017-02-24T18:55:03Z fortitude: it's questionable whether I even need a task ID, since you could always just return the task object itself unless you were serializing (which I'm not)
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2017-02-24T19:17:00Z pjb: fortitude: it's usually easier to remember and reference small numbers or strings, than object identities.
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2017-02-24T19:18:29Z fortitude: pjb: that's true
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2017-02-24T19:44:04Z fortitude: is there a common convention for including/excluding multiple items with #+ and #-?
2017-02-24T19:44:14Z fortitude: I'm thinking things like the key and value of a keyword arg
2017-02-24T19:45:22Z dlowe: fortitude: usually I will copy/paste the whole form and comment one out
2017-02-24T19:45:34Z dlowe: but I have a #; reader macro instead of using #+ or #-
2017-02-24T19:45:48Z dlowe: because this (and) and (or) business is just ridiculous
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2017-02-24T19:58:05Z pjb: fortitude: it's more conforming to use  #+c x #+c y #+c z   than   #+c #+c #+c x y z
2017-02-24T19:58:17Z pjb: fortitude: other than that, no convention.
2017-02-24T19:58:46Z fortitude: I didn't even realize the latter would work
2017-02-24T19:58:54Z fortitude: kinda makes me wish there was a reader-macro equivalent of ,@
2017-02-24T19:58:59Z pjb: fortitude: now, you can play trics with cdr.  (f . #+foo (:a 1 :b 2) #-foo ())
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2017-02-24T20:06:34Z |3b| notes that most keyword arguments aren't on *features* so you can just do #+:a 1 to get rid of :a and 1
2017-02-24T20:07:42Z |3b|: (not saying it is a good idea though)
2017-02-24T20:08:51Z |3b|: and rereading the original question, that isn't what was asked anyway :/
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2017-02-24T20:25:42Z burtons: Parenscript doesn't seem to work with SBCL anymore.
2017-02-24T20:26:12Z burtons: At least not after I switched from LW to SBCL as a test on my system.
2017-02-24T20:26:55Z burtons: (var ...) declerations are being rendered as var(..) function calls; this doesn't happen on LW.
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2017-02-24T20:31:34Z drmeister: Has anyone used cl-jupyter recently and would have a few minutes to answer a few questions about it?
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2017-02-24T20:31:57Z drmeister: (1) Is it viable at this point?
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2017-02-24T20:55:35Z fortitude: burtons: on my sbcl it does the right thing; did you maybe forget to use a package specifier for VAR?
2017-02-24T20:56:18Z fortitude: burtons: e.g.  (ps:ps (ps:var foo)) ;=> "var foo;", but (ps:ps (var foo)) ;=> "var(foo);"
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2017-02-24T21:38:22Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-02-24T21:38:58Z burtons: fortitude: nope, still here
2017-02-24T21:39:16Z burtons: I don't need a package specifier in my LW.
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2017-02-24T21:39:31Z burtons: So i'm not sure who's fault this issue is.
2017-02-24T21:39:36Z burtons: LW = LispWorks
2017-02-24T21:40:41Z fortitude: it will depend on the package you're in when you evaluate the code, of course
2017-02-24T21:41:11Z raynold: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2017-02-24T21:51:15Z fortitude: burtons: the parenscript code defines printers using EQL-specialized methods, so it's not by symbol name
2017-02-24T21:51:28Z fortitude: burtons: I'm betting if you evaluate (symbol-package 'var) in both environments, you'll get different results
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2017-02-24T22:01:32Z burtons: I'm in CL-USER for both of them.  There's nothing using packages in the code that should be different between environments.
2017-02-24T22:02:27Z burtons: Actually, there's no packages at all in my part of the code.
2017-02-24T22:02:37Z burtons: Other than the default CL-USER.
2017-02-24T22:03:37Z Bike: what is (symbol-package 'var)?
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2017-02-24T22:09:10Z Bike: well, it shouldn't matter really, if cl-user isn't using ps and ps just uses cl
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2017-02-24T22:10:33Z burtons: I think I got it.
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2017-02-24T22:11:05Z burtons: I'm blindly hitting 0 in slime like I was in lispworks and it's uninterning the symbols from parenscript.
2017-02-24T22:11:27Z Bike: ...uh, ok.
2017-02-24T22:11:27Z burtons: And putting them in CL user.  Should I be shadowing them?
2017-02-24T22:11:43Z Bike: when you say "hitting 0" you mean in the debugger?
2017-02-24T22:11:43Z burtons: This is due to another problem I'm having.
2017-02-24T22:11:59Z burtons: Yeah, in the condition selector window.
2017-02-24T22:12:12Z burtons: Not the debugger i mean.
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2017-02-24T22:12:42Z burtons: But this doesn't do the same thing in LispWorks and parenscript still runs fine.
2017-02-24T22:12:55Z Bike: why is the debugger even popping up?
2017-02-24T22:13:19Z Bike: needing to go through and select restarts isn't usually an acceptable part of 'fine'
2017-02-24T22:13:47Z burtons: Depending on if I eval and then compile, I get restarts on redefined symbols, although none are being defined in my own program.  Mostly I see 'false' being redefined.
2017-02-24T22:14:18Z Bike: this is really something you should mention when you start with "X doesn't work"
2017-02-24T22:14:20Z burtons: I don't like it but it's been working and I just put it up to one of those things I'll figure out later.
2017-02-24T22:14:37Z burtons: It does work on one implementation and doesn't work on the other.
2017-02-24T22:14:48Z Bike: does "work" include the debugger
2017-02-24T22:14:58Z burtons: Only during buffer evaluation or loading.
2017-02-24T22:15:02Z burtons: Compiling i mean.
2017-02-24T22:15:07Z burtons: It runs fine.
2017-02-24T22:15:19Z burtons: On LW but not on SBCL.
2017-02-24T22:15:21Z Bike: compiling what? anything? stuff involving parenscript? how do you reproduce this?
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2017-02-24T22:15:36Z burtons: My program that I'm writing using parenscript.
2017-02-24T22:16:48Z Bike: okay, so it sounds lke something strange is happening with symbols. is this program in a package you define? what packages do you use? paste, maybe?
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2017-02-24T22:18:12Z burtons: I am loading parenscript using quicklisp.  Open my single file, run slime-eval-buffer and get: Using package PARENSCRIPT results in a name conflict for this symbol: FALSE.
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2017-02-24T22:18:31Z burtons: So I select 0, to unintern.  This is in LW.
2017-02-24T22:19:13Z burtons: This gets past the prompt and everything seems to work fine.
2017-02-24T22:19:33Z Bike: so i'm guessing your use-package-ing parenscript from cl-user?
2017-02-24T22:19:52Z Bike: you're*
2017-02-24T22:20:11Z burtons: yes
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2017-02-24T22:20:47Z Bike: because i can see from lispworks's documentation that it exports the symbol 'false' from the 'lispworks' package, which is probably used by cl-user.
2017-02-24T22:21:36Z Bike: try having, like, (defpackage #:my-program (:use #:cl #:ps)) (in-package #:my-program) at the top of your file, remove the use-package, and see if it goes away.
2017-02-24T22:21:55Z burtons: Ok.
2017-02-24T22:23:11Z burtons: And that leads to another question.
2017-02-24T22:23:22Z burtons: I'm using (ql:quickload "parenscript") at the top of my code.
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2017-02-24T22:24:20Z burtons: But calling slime-compile-and-load-file doesn't execute them.  I've tried wrapping them in an eval-when (:compile-toplevel) but it doesn't seem to do what I expect, which is load them so I can compile successfully.  This has lead me to eval the buffer first before compiling.
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2017-02-24T22:24:45Z Bike: right, the compiler doesn't evaluate the forms it finds unless you tell them to
2017-02-24T22:24:54Z Bike: try (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...)
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2017-02-24T22:25:09Z Bike: that will have it quickload during compilation as well as during both kinds of load
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2017-02-24T22:30:44Z burtons: I wish one day to understand packages properly...
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2017-02-24T22:32:34Z prxq: burtons: what is not clicking?
2017-02-24T22:32:35Z burtons: Nope, parenscript still isn't working for me after using the defpackage as suggested.
2017-02-24T22:32:58Z akkad: burtons: I've never got ps to work on sbcl.
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2017-02-24T22:33:05Z burtons: Not sure at the moment, they're just something I haven't studied much yet.
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2017-02-24T22:33:37Z burtons: I've had it working before when I wrote sigil, a command line compiler for it, but now I'm working with it from the lisp image and it's a bit of a pain.
2017-02-24T22:33:53Z Bike: what 'not working' is this?
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2017-02-24T22:34:36Z burtons: Same problem with var being redefined in the incorrect package so it seems.
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2017-02-24T22:35:28Z Bike: try restarting lisp and doing it.
2017-02-24T22:35:30Z burtons: It's my lack of CL knowledge I'm sure, but it's beyond me right now to be able to fix it.
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2017-02-24T22:35:37Z burtons: I'm restarting constantly from scratch.
2017-02-24T22:36:07Z Bike: then i don't think i can figure out what's happening without seeing code.
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2017-02-24T22:37:28Z burtons: Understandable, I'll put something together.
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2017-02-24T22:47:18Z burtons: Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339889
2017-02-24T22:48:59Z burtons: Basically, it looks like I have to prefix all of the parenscript keywords with a package specifier if I want to use it with sbcl.
2017-02-24T22:49:13Z burtons: That's a pain and LW doesn't require that.
2017-02-24T22:49:46Z Bike: you forgot in-package.
2017-02-24T22:49:55Z Bike: (in-package :x)
2017-02-24T22:50:15Z burtons: D'oh.
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2017-02-24T22:57:25Z burtons: HA! Success.
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2017-02-24T23:02:42Z burtons: Aaand, LW is no slower than SBCL for my test case.
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2017-02-24T23:03:43Z akkad: lw is always slower.
2017-02-24T23:03:51Z burtons: not in this case.
2017-02-24T23:04:09Z akkad: time == $$. and so free, is no time at all.
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2017-02-24T23:04:49Z burtons: I already paid for LW so that's not a concern of mine right now.
2017-02-24T23:05:17Z akkad: burtons: can you deliver apps? if so do you have any example bins?
2017-02-24T23:05:56Z burtons: Yes, I've got a couple simples games in the App store.
2017-02-24T23:06:28Z burtons: Here's one: https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/typing-english-edition/id1205351354?mt=12
2017-02-24T23:07:00Z burtons: Heres' the other: https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/typing-common-lisp-edition/id1202707132?mt=12
2017-02-24T23:07:28Z burtons: Took a day to figure out everything to get it signed properly for submission but now I've got a script to handle most of it.
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2017-02-24T23:14:40Z burtons: I'm out. Have a good weekend and thanks for the help. Later.
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2017-02-25T00:02:08Z drmeister: What library does quicklisp use for http requests?
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2017-02-25T00:02:40Z drmeister: Maybe I asked that a split second too early.
2017-02-25T00:02:42Z drmeister: What library does quicklisp use for http requests?
2017-02-25T00:02:42Z Xach: drmeister: no library. i wrote a client and it is part of quicklisp.
2017-02-25T00:03:32Z drmeister: What's a lightweight library if I want to download url's to files?
2017-02-25T00:03:59Z Xach does not know, sorry
2017-02-25T00:04:29Z Xach: drmeister: you could look into what quicklisp does (it's in quicklisp.lisp and ~/quicklisp/quicklisp/http.lisp) or look at what Clozure CL does
2017-02-25T00:04:37Z drmeister: I'm searching but nothing seems to work - maybe because I'm connecting through my phone and the connection is iffy.
2017-02-25T00:05:45Z Xach: oh
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2017-02-25T00:09:22Z Onemorenickname: is there a lisp tutorial for ml programmers ?
2017-02-25T00:09:37Z Onemorenickname: like the gentle introduction to haskell, but for lisp
2017-02-25T00:09:55Z Xach: Onemorenickname: I don't think so.
2017-02-25T00:10:03Z Onemorenickname: hm
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2017-02-25T00:10:51Z Xach: I have a hard time getting interested in "X for Y programmers" tutorials - the order in which you learn programming languages is very much a coincidence, and I think it can slow down learning if you treat later ones in terms of earlier ones too much.
2017-02-25T00:11:25Z Onemorenickname: Xach, it's more like so the basics aren't retold again and again
2017-02-25T00:11:53Z Onemorenickname: for instance, the haskell tutorial is without "pedagogic" stuff
2017-02-25T00:12:09Z Onemorenickname: Just how haskell works, the type system and so on
2017-02-25T00:12:39Z failproofshark: you could look at the hyperspec or read common lisp the language
2017-02-25T00:12:46Z Xach: I think you will learn Lisp fairly easily from good Lisp tutorials, like Practical Common Lisp and Paradigms of AI Programming, without a fast-track for previous ML knowledge.
2017-02-25T00:13:15Z failproofshark: practical common lisp assumes you know how to program, which is actually  abetter recommendation
2017-02-25T00:13:18Z failproofshark: ignore mine
2017-02-25T00:13:49Z Xach: the hyperspec is a good reference but a poor tutorial
2017-02-25T00:14:03Z Xach: PAIP is more dense than PCL, I think.
2017-02-25T00:14:05Z Onemorenickname: the Practical Common Lisp sounds good
2017-02-25T00:14:34Z Onemorenickname: "more dense" means less pedagogic-filling-stuff ?
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2017-02-25T00:42:34Z Xach: Onemorenickname: more info, less space.
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2017-02-25T00:43:10Z Onemorenickname: xach, nice
2017-02-25T00:43:27Z Xach: lots of space, but lots and lots of info
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2017-02-25T00:53:33Z Xach: drmeister: what prompts the questions about http client?
2017-02-25T00:54:12Z drmeister: I'd like to download protein structure files (PDB files) from the PDB database.
2017-02-25T00:55:11Z drmeister: I'm looking at trivial-http and it uses usocket - which supports ecl (of course) but via the ecl specific features that I didn't support.
2017-02-25T00:55:55Z drmeister: I added sb-bsd-sockets to Clasp - that's what quicklisp uses.
2017-02-25T00:56:42Z drmeister: Basically, given a URL I'd like to be able to download the file.
2017-02-25T00:56:53Z Xach: quicklisp uses sb-bsd-sockets on sbcl, or whatever else whatever else implementation provides.
2017-02-25T00:57:09Z Xach: if you can open a connection, write octets, and read octets, quicklisp can work with it.
2017-02-25T00:57:21Z drmeister: Yes - I think that's how I got quicklisp to work for Clasp.
2017-02-25T00:57:27Z Xach: it doesn't care if it's a stream object or socket object or whatever.
2017-02-25T00:58:04Z fortitude: drmeister: I used trivial-download in my build tool to fetch static files
2017-02-25T00:58:16Z fortitude: drmeister: worked pretty well after I fixed a small bug (not sure if it's quicklisp, though)
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2017-02-25T00:59:15Z fortitude: ...and it uses drakma underneath, which may or may not be suitable for your case
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2017-02-25T01:01:45Z Xach: drakma is heavy
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2017-02-25T01:06:17Z drmeister: Thanks - drakma looks pretty involved - I'll give it a try though.
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2017-02-25T01:07:33Z Xach: drmeister: feel free to rip off the quicklisp stuff. change the package name and such and you should be relatively good to go.
2017-02-25T01:07:50Z drmeister: Thank you very much.
2017-02-25T01:08:38Z fiddlerwoaroof: if you don't mind an extra C dependency, there's also carrier by orthecreedence
2017-02-25T01:09:20Z fiddlerwoaroof: However, it's an asynchronous client, so it's a bit more involved to use.
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2017-02-25T01:53:52Z drmeister: It would be better to get usocket to work - because drakma depends on it.
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2017-02-25T02:17:59Z Xach: usocket working is good
2017-02-25T02:18:16Z Oladon1: Hrm. I'm feeling rather silly.
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2017-02-25T02:19:41Z Oladon: I have a project that was working a year ago, from which I took a hiatus... and now it doesn't work anymore. And the library in question was last updated in 2014.
2017-02-25T02:20:15Z Oladon eyes the code suspiciously.
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2017-02-25T03:06:30Z krwq: i got possibly stupid question: how do you step through the code? when i put (break) in the first line of my function and click "s" in slime it immediately leaves the function
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2017-02-25T03:27:55Z Xach: Oladon: what are the symptoms?
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2017-02-25T03:30:09Z Oladon: Xach: The web scraping code was mis-parsing a document. I suspected the document had changed, but in actuality it turned out that I had made a mistake when I picked the code back up this year.
2017-02-25T03:30:26Z Xach: oko
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2017-02-25T04:07:36Z BusFactor1: Hello all.
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2017-02-25T04:37:41Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-25T04:38:33Z beach: Hello BusFactor1.
2017-02-25T04:39:03Z BusFactor1: Good morning beach :)
2017-02-25T04:39:20Z BusFactor1: I'm having a lot of fun generating sounds right now.
2017-02-25T04:39:43Z aeth: Oh, I see how SBCL stores Unicode strings in its fasls. ^@^@^@f^@^@^@o^@^@^@o^@^@^@ ^@^@^@b^@^@^@a^@^@^@r for "foo bar" so either padded UTF-8 to be constantly 32-bit or UTF-32 or both (not sure if there's a difference, and if there is if there's a way to tell)
2017-02-25T04:39:47Z BusFactor1: I figured out how to get run time generated sinusiods playing in LispWorks.
2017-02-25T04:40:40Z Bike: aeth: i think it's utf32. for random access.
2017-02-25T04:40:41Z BusFactor1: And I'm playing with this idea called 'typers', variables that can be values or functions depending upon their context.
2017-02-25T04:41:59Z BusFactor1: But generally they'll be functions in the end...they're meant to be passed to the sinusoid generators as paramters to create a synthesizer.
2017-02-25T04:44:22Z BusFactor1: I'm really starting to <3 liap.  This language is amazing.
2017-02-25T04:45:16Z aeth: All I know is that I can replace the three null characters with "" in emacs and then read a lot of literal strings. (obviously saving would break the fasl file)
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2017-02-25T04:45:51Z aeth: not all of them, but the rest might just be false positives
2017-02-25T04:46:23Z Bike: well, if you're just doing ascii characters, sure
2017-02-25T04:48:27Z aeth: interestingly, the CCL fasls seem to use UTF-8 or ASCII because I can see those in emacs directly
2017-02-25T04:50:28Z aeth: CCL seems to store the whole source code in its fasl files
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2017-02-25T05:00:40Z aeth: BusFactor1: your name is the most Lisp name I've ever seen
2017-02-25T05:00:54Z BusFactor1: ha!
2017-02-25T05:01:01Z BusFactor1: no kidding
2017-02-25T05:01:36Z BusFactor1: Such a personal language in the end isn't it.
2017-02-25T05:02:04Z BusFactor1: Almost Witgensteinien.
2017-02-25T05:02:12Z aeth: Most *major* Lisp projects have a bus factor of 1 or 2, even if they get occasional patches from others.
2017-02-25T05:02:55Z BusFactor1: I think that's where the integration problems come from.  But that coherency will come with time.
2017-02-25T05:03:07Z BusFactor1: Lisp is the language for experimentation.
2017-02-25T05:03:21Z BusFactor1: Which means that all projects might not work so well together with each other.
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2017-02-25T05:03:47Z BusFactor1: So I am findking.
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2017-02-25T05:06:12Z aeth: Actually, I wonder if there's any major Lisp project that has a bus factor above 2.
2017-02-25T05:06:46Z BusFactor1: I'd be interested in finding that out...in the future.
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2017-02-25T05:07:12Z BusFactor1: This is actually my company name.  And it's lisp based, but not ready to take on employees.
2017-02-25T05:07:53Z BusFactor1: And not making any money really or anything, just a hobby project.
2017-02-25T05:08:19Z vtomole: Hey, i'm having problems running the example in this README: https://github.com/tanakahx/cl-binary, my with-open-file for stream works fine, but this get's me an "out" not defined. Any help is appreciated!
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2017-02-25T05:11:05Z beach: vtomole: What package are you in when you try that?
2017-02-25T05:11:22Z beach: vtomole: And, what is the exact error message?
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2017-02-25T05:11:55Z beach: vtomole: And what is the relation between the with-open-file you talk about and the with-open-binary-file in the example?
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2017-02-25T05:13:13Z vtomole: Oh jesus, you are right, wrong package, thought it would work in cl-user, I should sent a fix to that readme but it looks like the project is dead.
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2017-02-25T05:14:32Z vtomole: Thanks beach, and good morning!
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2017-02-25T05:14:39Z beach: Sure.
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2017-02-25T05:17:38Z aeth: apocalypse?
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2017-02-25T05:18:11Z beach: vtomole: I think it assumed that the user known that the library won't try to magically import its symbols to the cl-user package.
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2017-02-25T05:19:04Z vtomole: beach: yup lol stupid mistake....
2017-02-25T05:19:14Z beach: vtomole: Having said that, I should add that I know prefer to use explicit package prefixes for external libraries, and for such usage, it would be good to supply the package prefix in the examples.
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2017-02-25T05:47:51Z axion: beach: I have taken the same preference recently, and I think more people should.
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2017-02-25T05:49:10Z beach: Yeah, but this practice is unfortunately incompatible with the convention of using long package names, like pjb does for instance.  Package aliases would come in handy, but we don't have them yet.
2017-02-25T05:49:30Z axion: Yes, well you can still introduce nicknames
2017-02-25T05:49:54Z axion: But yeah, it goes a very long way towards making your code understandable, amoung other benefits.
2017-02-25T05:50:12Z beach: Not in my world. :)  I always pretend I am in a LispOS where all software is present at the same time.
2017-02-25T05:50:44Z beach: I mean, I can't add arbitrary nicknames to other people's packages.
2017-02-25T05:51:51Z axion: Oh, right.
2017-02-25T05:51:52Z beach: Right.  In trying to clean up the code for (first) Climacs, I couldn't even figure out where most operators were defined, because it :USEd all its external packages.
2017-02-25T05:52:24Z beach: It is amazing how reading one's own code from a few years back gives quite a few surprises.
2017-02-25T05:52:40Z axion: The only thing I use now, is alexandria, because I use a handful of functions in every project, and it has almost become part of the standard for me. I really should be just using :import-from though
2017-02-25T05:52:48Z axion: :use that is
2017-02-25T05:53:22Z axion: beach: That just means you are learning still :)
2017-02-25T05:53:33Z beach: Yep.  Good thing, that. :)
2017-02-25T05:56:27Z axion: What is more annoying are the surprises from reading other peoples code with many USE'd packages. I bet these developers either have a hard time naming symbols, or take the Emacs approach that lacks multiple namespaces.
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2017-02-25T05:57:32Z beach: I agree.  And reading the code of (first) Climacs was like that.
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2017-02-25T06:04:25Z beach: This discussion reminds me that I should probably ditch my attempt to clean up the code of (first) Climacs, and start over.  My current attempt became to error prone and I fear that I will never get it to work again this way.
2017-02-25T06:04:45Z beach: Better yet, I should convince someone else to do it. :)
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2017-02-25T06:40:05Z beach: I think I know what to do...
2017-02-25T06:40:11Z beach: 1. Make sufficient progress on Second Climacs so that it can display Common Lisp code from the parse results of the incremental parser.
2017-02-25T06:40:16Z beach: 2. Create a special analyzer that will highlight imported symbols without a package prefix (other than symbols from the Common Lisp package), and provide a tooltip that will show the name of the package of the symbol.
2017-02-25T06:40:21Z beach: 3. Perhaps provide a context menu that will add the package prefix for such a symbol.
2017-02-25T06:40:27Z beach: 4. Use this analyzer to clean up (first) Climacs.
2017-02-25T06:40:28Z beach: 5. Import selected parts of the cleaned up code from (first) Climacs to Second Climacs in order to make faster progress on Second Climacs.
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2017-02-25T12:01:52Z myrkraverk: How safe am I from C-style Undefined Behaviour, when using Common Lisp?
2017-02-25T12:02:00Z myrkraverk: CL has UB too, doesn't it?
2017-02-25T12:03:18Z jurov: yes but imo it's much easier to avoid it
2017-02-25T12:03:47Z myrkraverk: That has been my exerience, but I think I'm not well versed in CL yet, to know about most of the UBs (unlike C).
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2017-02-25T12:32:11Z beach: myrkraverk: Common Lisp has plenty of situations where the behavior is undefined.  But most Common Lisp implementations don't fail as spectacularly as most C implementations would do in such cases.
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2017-02-25T12:33:20Z beach: myrkraverk: The reason is that Common Lisp implementations can (and in general do) test for these situations and signal an error then.
2017-02-25T12:34:23Z beach: myrkraverk: But the Common Lisp HyperSpec allows for undefined behavior to be as spectacular as the C standard does, so you have to choose your Common Lisp implementation wisely.
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2017-02-25T12:35:38Z beach: myrkraverk: For example, I don't know a single situation where SBCL would fail silently in safe code, i.e. when the SAFETY optimize quality is equal to 3.
2017-02-25T12:36:21Z beach: myrkraverk: Now, the situation is completely different if you start using code written in a foreign language, of course (which is one reason I try to avoid that as much as I possibly can).
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2017-02-25T12:49:39Z adlai: myrkraverk: you do still have to know the limitations of your machine. for example, SBCL on memory-starved linux will do the moral equivalent of a segfault if you leak memory (or don't care enough about it)
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2017-02-25T13:05:35Z |3b|: one example of a place where it is easy to get C-level behavior from lisp is something like (defun foo (a) (declare (type some-type a)) (check-type a some-type)). the DECLARE tells the compiler A is SOME-TYPE, so it knows it can skip the CHECK-TYPE
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2017-02-25T13:12:12Z myrkraverk: So if I start my sbcl sessions with (declare safety 3) -- at least while experimenting, I should be "safe" ?
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2017-02-25T13:20:28Z |3b|: for sbcl,there is also restrict-compiler-policy
2017-02-25T13:20:54Z |3b|: which is less likely for t hings to turn off without you noticing
2017-02-25T13:21:19Z |3b|: and you probably want DECLAIM rather than DECLARE for setting it globally
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2017-02-25T13:25:22Z Grue`: I'm getting a weird warning "Derived type of SB-C::NEW-VALUE is (VALUES EXTENDED-CHAR &OPTIONAL), conflicting with its asserted type BASE-CHAR."
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2017-02-25T13:25:42Z Grue`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/339935 it happens at the line (setf (char geminated end) #\っ)
2017-02-25T13:26:20Z pjstirling: base-chars aren't unicode?
2017-02-25T13:26:25Z |3b|: where does READING come from?
2017-02-25T13:26:51Z |3b|: base-chars are probably ascii at best
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2017-02-25T13:28:47Z Grue`: it comes from very far, but ultimately it's a database query result
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2017-02-25T13:29:01Z Grue`: and it is unicode
2017-02-25T13:29:32Z Grue`: also this happens in sbcl 1.3.8 but not 1.3.3
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2017-02-25T13:32:25Z pjstirling: sbcl recently changed stuff to do with creating base-strings in some cases, when it can
2017-02-25T13:33:06Z pjstirling: at least that's what I gather from the commit emails :)
2017-02-25T13:33:39Z |3b|: hmm, that may be an sbcl problem
2017-02-25T13:34:30Z pjstirling: you may need to coerce to a string before trying to mutate it
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2017-02-25T13:35:10Z pjstirling: it's done to save memory when the original string was all ascii afaict
2017-02-25T13:35:28Z |3b|: nah, looks more like a type propagation bug
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2017-02-25T13:36:12Z |3b|: complains during compilation, but don't see anything it could validly assume about READING that would justify the warning
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2017-02-25T13:36:40Z |3b|: particularly in reduced case, where it is just (setf (char (copy-seq ..) 0) ...)
2017-02-25T13:36:49Z pjstirling: I haven't read the paste yet, I'll do that now :)
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2017-02-25T13:37:28Z |3b|: reduced case is (defun foo (a) (setf (char (copy-seq a) 0)#\HIRAGANA_LETTER_SMALL_TU))
2017-02-25T13:38:52Z pjstirling: but are you sure that A was a string and not a base-string?
2017-02-25T13:39:09Z Grue`: it's an argument, it could be anything
2017-02-25T13:39:28Z |3b|: yeah, this is during compilation, there is no string yet
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2017-02-25T13:40:02Z |3b|: and no warning without copy-seq
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2017-02-25T14:31:35Z myrkraverk: In other news, I blogged about SBCL's with-timeout.
2017-02-25T14:31:36Z myrkraverk: http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/2017/02/sbcl-with-timeout-is-a-nice-undocumented-feature/
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2017-02-25T14:40:01Z beach: HAH!  I wrote a "USE finder" that READs a file and returns all symbols that have no package prefix in the file and that have a different package from *PACKAGE* when the file is being read.
2017-02-25T14:40:08Z phoe: myrkraverk: that's good!
2017-02-25T14:40:16Z phoe: beach: that's also good!
2017-02-25T14:40:31Z beach: It returns those symbols in a hash table, with the USEd package as the key.
2017-02-25T14:41:22Z phoe: that's a very useful tool. you can import whole packages when developing, and find out what exactly you *need* to import when you refactor or prepare a release.
2017-02-25T14:41:42Z beach: It can't be used to automate the insertion of package prefixes, because a typical file has lexical variables for which the package does not matter, and for which one certainly would not want a package prefix.
2017-02-25T14:42:09Z beach: phoe: That is not how I plan to use it.
2017-02-25T14:42:22Z phoe: beach: yes, I figured, but it's a use case that I immediately thought of.
2017-02-25T14:42:37Z beach: I plan to use it to take some of my old projects that have extensive USE clauses in defpackage, and attempt to remove those.
2017-02-25T14:44:00Z beach: The fact that such a tool was nontrivial to write says something about the difficulty a human maintainer has when reading code which :USEs many packages.
2017-02-25T14:44:19Z phoe: beach: got it. It's also a very valid and fun use case.
2017-02-25T14:44:58Z phoe: I expect you to write a either a blog post about it or a detailed README.
2017-02-25T14:45:10Z beach: Is that what you expect.
2017-02-25T14:45:11Z beach: :)
2017-02-25T14:45:15Z phoe: :P
2017-02-25T14:45:21Z phoe: No, I really think you should promote it a little bit this way.
2017-02-25T14:45:29Z beach: I probably will.
2017-02-25T14:46:25Z beach: Well, "nontrivial" should be put into perspective.  I could program the SICL reader by changing how it handles symbols without any package markers in it.  I just had to add a few lines in the default method, specialize it to a new stream class, and that was basically it.
2017-02-25T14:47:04Z beach: s/I could/I was able to/
2017-02-25T14:49:13Z beach: Aside from the duplicated code for token interpretation from the SICL reader, the entire thing is 50 lines or so of code.
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2017-02-25T14:50:48Z beach: And that includes creating a stream class using Gray streams.
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2017-02-25T14:52:17Z malice: Hi! I tried quickloading caveman2 and I get compile-error during loading static-vectors.
2017-02-25T14:52:23Z malice: Is this a known issue? Or is this my problem?
2017-02-25T14:52:37Z malice: "Lock on package SB-IMPL violated when interning %VECTOR-WIDETAG-AND-N-BITS"
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2017-02-25T14:53:35Z phoe: malice:
2017-02-25T14:53:39Z phoe: works for me on SBCL 1.3.10.debian
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2017-02-25T14:54:00Z phoe: let me upgrade
2017-02-25T14:54:50Z malice: maybe I didn't upgrade then, let me try that too
2017-02-25T14:55:20Z phoe: went to 1.3.14.debian
2017-02-25T14:55:26Z phoe: still no error on quickloading this
2017-02-25T14:55:40Z malice: yeah, (ql:update-all-dists) fixed this problem.
2017-02-25T14:55:47Z malice: I always forget about updating dists :(
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2017-02-25T15:03:28Z drmeister: Is there any way for classes to be removed from a Common Lisp environment?
2017-02-25T15:03:51Z pjb: Yes.
2017-02-25T15:04:01Z pjb: (setf (find-class class-name) nil)
2017-02-25T15:04:24Z drmeister: Thank you.
2017-02-25T15:04:27Z pjb: Of course, to be garbage collected,  you would have to remove all the methods and all the instances refering it
2017-02-25T15:09:26Z beach doesn't think drmeister would like to be garbage collected.
2017-02-25T15:10:05Z phoe: beach: we'd need to lose all references to drmeister.
2017-02-25T15:10:14Z beach: Yeah.  Tricky stuff.
2017-02-25T15:10:18Z phoe: So as long as he's on this IRC channel, it's, well.
2017-02-25T15:10:25Z phoe: Either none of us are garbage-collected.
2017-02-25T15:10:33Z phoe: Or all of us are garbage-collected.
2017-02-25T15:10:41Z phoe: Creepy stuff.
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2017-02-25T15:23:11Z dim: hi
2017-02-25T15:23:31Z dim: can you live inspect what a CL system is doing? current function or something?
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2017-02-25T15:23:48Z dim: I'm using CCL here and my code is stuck "somewhere"
2017-02-25T15:24:00Z beach: Define "stuck".
2017-02-25T15:24:27Z drmeister is worried that civilization will be collected by its garbage
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2017-02-25T15:24:37Z beach: dim: If you are in an infinite computation, you can press C-c C-c in SLIME and then use the debugger to look at the backtrace.
2017-02-25T15:24:47Z dim: uses no CPU, outputs nothing (no logs, and I'm being quite verbose)
2017-02-25T15:25:11Z beach: dim: The same technique should work.  You might be hanging in a read.
2017-02-25T15:25:18Z dim: C-c C-c gives 2: (BORDEAUX-THREADS:CONDITION-WAIT
2017-02-25T15:25:38Z beach: Then that is what it is doing.
2017-02-25T15:25:39Z dim: I am using lparallel so that's very low-level for me
2017-02-25T15:25:52Z dim: any way to understand what condition I am waiting on?
2017-02-25T15:26:22Z dim: the higher level call is LPARALLEL.KERNEL:RECEIVE-RESULT
2017-02-25T15:26:28Z dim: so I might be doing one too many
2017-02-25T15:26:50Z dim: or it's not done yet, or it's not handling an error properly and it's waiting for some interaction somewhere I can't see
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2017-02-25T15:29:30Z phoe: dim: to be more precise
2017-02-25T15:29:53Z phoe: there's a condition-wait somewhere, so basically, the thread is waiting for another thread to set a condition variable.
2017-02-25T15:30:18Z phoe: so this smells either of a very long computation or of a deadlock of sorts.
2017-02-25T15:30:19Z dim: yeah, lparallel does that to sync caller when worker's done
2017-02-25T15:30:23Z dim: at receive-result
2017-02-25T15:30:24Z dim: I think
2017-02-25T15:30:37Z phoe: dim: natural question, does it do it every time you try?
2017-02-25T15:30:53Z dim: the bug probably is on me and I'm thinking an off-by-one
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2017-02-25T15:31:06Z dim: I'd like to have more easily usable information to track it down
2017-02-25T15:31:25Z dim: phoe: reproducing the bug used to be almost impossible
2017-02-25T15:31:34Z dim: I have a long track of issues on pgloader about it
2017-02-25T15:31:40Z dim: and here I have a reproducable test case
2017-02-25T15:31:48Z dim: quite exciting ;-)
2017-02-25T15:31:53Z phoe: dim: have you posted it on lparallel?
2017-02-25T15:32:20Z phoe: https://github.com/lmj/lparallel
2017-02-25T15:32:37Z dim: the probability that it's an lparallel bug rather than my own is so small...
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2017-02-25T15:33:28Z phoe: dim: well, show me the case
2017-02-25T15:34:01Z dim: ahah
2017-02-25T15:34:10Z dim: might be that I am creating a kernel with 2 workers
2017-02-25T15:34:12Z dim: and start 3
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2017-02-25T15:38:11Z phoe: dim: weird
2017-02-25T15:38:14Z phoe: it should fail faster
2017-02-25T15:38:25Z phoe: if there's a mismatch like that.
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2017-02-25T15:38:46Z dim: ahah found it
2017-02-25T15:38:57Z phoe: dim: what was it?
2017-02-25T15:39:12Z dim: the index creation doesn't happen in "schema only", which is a bug
2017-02-25T15:39:22Z dim: but we still wait for the parallel index creation to complete
2017-02-25T15:39:47Z dim: so we lparallel:receive-result (blocking operation) on tasks we didn't submit
2017-02-25T15:40:45Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/common/db-methods.lisp#L316
2017-02-25T15:40:50Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/common/db-methods.lisp#L332
2017-02-25T15:40:55Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/sources/common/db-methods.lisp#L362
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2017-02-25T15:41:15Z dim: L316 is badly place schema-only check
2017-02-25T15:41:22Z dim: L332 is the heart of the bug
2017-02-25T15:41:45Z dim: L362 is where the bug is caught (L370 for precision)
2017-02-25T15:42:09Z phoe: good catch!
2017-02-25T15:42:55Z dim: thanks
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2017-02-25T15:43:05Z dim: now to fix it... requires some thinking
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2017-02-25T15:44:27Z dim: I am wondering again about the whole business of manually tracking finished tasks in a way that I can decide "table is done, continue with indexing now"
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2017-02-25T16:03:03Z dim: random note: I discovered the SLIME trace dialog only recently and I love it ;-)
2017-02-25T16:05:55Z shka: dim: yeah
2017-02-25T16:06:21Z shka: dim: and i recently discovered that inspector works there xD
2017-02-25T16:06:21Z dim: (and bug fixed)
2017-02-25T16:06:35Z dim: shka: hehe, of course it does! ;-)
2017-02-25T16:06:49Z shka: not that obvious for me :D
2017-02-25T16:07:01Z dim: I can't wait until the next time a colleague wants to know more about why I love Common Lisp and assert it's a modern proglang
2017-02-25T16:07:10Z fourier: after 8 years of occasional usage of cl I've finally read slime manual. it is not that bad! :) (I mainly use LW however)
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2017-02-25T16:07:15Z dim: of course as in slime being awesome
2017-02-25T16:08:53Z phoe: dim: uh
2017-02-25T16:08:56Z phoe: slime trace dialog?
2017-02-25T16:09:22Z phoe: woah
2017-02-25T16:09:23Z phoe: dude
2017-02-25T16:09:26Z phoe: that's some good stuff
2017-02-25T16:10:04Z dim: C-c M-t and C-c T away
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2017-02-25T16:16:44Z shka: actually, slime is very good
2017-02-25T16:16:50Z shka: not perfect
2017-02-25T16:16:53Z shka: but really good
2017-02-25T16:21:43Z dim: I can't think of another env I used that doesn't pale in comparison
2017-02-25T16:22:23Z dim: the fact that I hate auto-completion of object methods might be strongly correlated here of course...
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2017-02-25T16:43:10Z fourier: why do you don't like auto-completion of object methods?
2017-02-25T16:47:04Z dim: I'd rather read the docs from the classes and API that I am using than guesstimate which entry I might want to use
2017-02-25T16:47:25Z dim: if I don't already know the name of the method, I'm up for some reading and that's good
2017-02-25T16:48:15Z fourier: autocompletion is a way to explore what methods class have without leaving your development environment
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2017-02-25T16:53:44Z dim: yes
2017-02-25T16:54:07Z dim: I'm just saying that if you don't know that, you might want to leave your dev env before it's too late ;-)
2017-02-25T16:54:33Z dim: in SLIME, I would M-. my way down to discovering the API I want to use
2017-02-25T16:54:38Z dim: or just read the docs really
2017-02-25T16:55:54Z fourier: I can't see problems using slime-company and going through functions.
2017-02-25T16:57:57Z dim: personal preference, clearly
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2017-02-25T17:04:46Z fourier: you can type say "(package:" and see all exported symbols from this package along with their documentation (strangely enough it doesn't show documentation for functions though)
2017-02-25T17:05:41Z fourier: hm no, it is showing documentation but not always. strange
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2017-02-25T17:14:15Z fourier: because these functions didn't have any docstrings, how sad :(
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2017-02-25T17:32:16Z phoe: :(
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2017-02-25T21:17:19Z shrdlu68: Hi folks!
2017-02-25T21:18:09Z shrdlu68: What's going on with static-vectors? I can't quickload any packages that have it as a dependency.
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2017-02-25T21:19:00Z shrdlu68: I encountered this issue months ago, is there still no fix? :(
2017-02-25T21:19:03Z Bike: do you have an old asdf?
2017-02-25T21:20:00Z shrdlu68: I'm on SBCL 1.3.12.51-868cff4
2017-02-25T21:20:36Z shrdlu68: So I don't think my asdf is all that old.
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2017-02-25T21:20:53Z Bike: you can do (asdf:asdf-version), but yeah.
2017-02-25T21:21:02Z Bike: what's an example of a system you can't load?
2017-02-25T21:21:10Z Bike: static-vectors itself?
2017-02-25T21:21:26Z shrdlu68: asdf-version => 3.1.5
2017-02-25T21:21:38Z shrdlu68: I can't load fast-io, for instance.
2017-02-25T21:22:53Z Bike: and you say this has been happening for months? i'm on 1.3.3 and it works fine
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2017-02-25T21:24:00Z Bike: oh yeah, and what error do you get
2017-02-25T21:24:03Z shrdlu68: I'm stumped.
2017-02-25T21:24:27Z shrdlu68: Just a moment, lemme paste it.
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2017-02-25T21:28:38Z shrdlu68: Bike: Here http://vhbin.net/17wuat98hu9v/
2017-02-25T21:29:09Z Bike: okay, this is the same problem i saw back in july, according to logs
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2017-02-25T21:30:22Z Bike: what do you get from, uh, (uiop:with-temporary-file (:pathname tmp :suffix ""))
2017-02-25T21:30:29Z Bike: and are you on ubuntu
2017-02-25T21:30:38Z shrdlu68: I'm on gentoo.
2017-02-25T21:30:54Z Bike: do you have asdf installed from any sources but sbcl's bundle?
2017-02-25T21:31:15Z Bike: when i saw this in july they had ubuntu's cl-asdf package, which somehow result in an asdf 3.0.3 that reported itself as a later version
2017-02-25T21:32:14Z shrdlu68: I don't think so. I had originally installed the packaged sbcl, but I removed it in favor of getting the source myself and compiling from the github repo.
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2017-02-25T21:33:05Z Bike: can you M-. uiop:with-temporary-file? do you get a similar error to the one on load if you try to evaluate my form there?
2017-02-25T21:33:32Z shrdlu68: (uiop:with-temporary-file (:pathname tmp :suffix
2017-02-25T21:33:34Z shrdlu68:               ""))
2017-02-25T21:33:41Z shrdlu68: => NIL
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2017-02-25T21:33:55Z Bike: that directly contradicts the error, fantastic
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2017-02-25T21:35:09Z Bike: the error is saying with-temporary-file doesn't know what :suffix is. that keyword was added in 2013 https://github.com/fare/asdf/commit/9beaabb5290f274fc7e1d33fa8dd496bf0ebbff7#diff-78efddae3fbece9fa0028be6b5a15589
2017-02-25T21:35:17Z Bike: so you somehow have an old asdf somewhere
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2017-02-25T21:36:35Z shrdlu68: Okay. probably a left-over from the packaged sbcl.
2017-02-25T21:36:43Z Bike: likely
2017-02-25T21:37:03Z Bike: i have no idea how it ends up in a weird halfway state like that, though
2017-02-25T21:38:11Z shrdlu68: Wait, but it does state that it is version 3.1.5...
2017-02-25T21:38:19Z Bike: it did for the other guy too
2017-02-25T21:38:39Z Bike: and, similarly, you get an error about not knowing what :suffix is even though you can evaluate a form with :suffix just fine
2017-02-25T21:39:03Z Bike: some weird shit is happening, but i'd try a clean reinstall if it's not too burdensome
2017-02-25T21:41:38Z shrdlu68: I'll try to reinstall SBCL and remove all SBCL-related files.
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2017-02-25T22:16:03Z phoe: shrdlu68: ql:update-all-dists
2017-02-25T22:16:20Z Bike: does that update asdf?
2017-02-25T22:16:26Z phoe: malice`: did you have the same issue with static-vectors as shrdlu68 ?
2017-02-25T22:16:31Z phoe: Bike: it doesn't
2017-02-25T22:16:37Z phoe: but malice` had a similar issue AFAIK
2017-02-25T22:16:44Z phoe: and ql:u-a-d fixed it for him
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2017-02-25T22:20:40Z shrdlu68: phoe: I think I did that, didn't seem to help.
2017-02-25T22:21:08Z shrdlu68: If reinstalling SBCL doesn't work, I'll do it anyway.
2017-02-25T22:22:36Z phoe: Ouch.
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2017-02-25T22:47:40Z shrdlu68: Well, I deleted all sbcl files in /usr/, cloned the current release, and built it using ccl. Didn't work.
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2017-02-25T22:48:06Z shrdlu68: I did ql:update-all-dists. Still doesn't work.
2017-02-25T22:48:22Z shrdlu68: It's a curse, I tell yer.
2017-02-25T22:48:26Z Xach: shrdlu68: I would like to help!
2017-02-25T22:48:30Z Xach reviews logs
2017-02-25T22:49:22Z Xach: shrdlu68: up for a little more troubleshooting?
2017-02-25T22:49:30Z shrdlu68: Yep!
2017-02-25T22:50:06Z Xach: shrdlu68: what do you get from (ql:where-is-system "uiop")?
2017-02-25T22:50:37Z shrdlu68: => #P"/usr/share/common-lisp/source/uiop/"
2017-02-25T22:50:42Z Xach: Well that is bad
2017-02-25T22:50:51Z Xach: Where did that directory come from?
2017-02-25T22:51:06Z Xach: looks like a package-provided thing
2017-02-25T22:51:14Z shrdlu68: Yeah.
2017-02-25T22:51:50Z shrdlu68: From the packaged sbcl, I think.
2017-02-25T22:52:01Z shrdlu68: ...which I uninstalled.
2017-02-25T22:52:07Z phoe: sbcl?
2017-02-25T22:52:13Z phoe: what is your distribution?
2017-02-25T22:52:15Z shrdlu68: Yes.
2017-02-25T22:52:20Z shrdlu68: Gentoo.
2017-02-25T22:52:31Z phoe: check if sbcl pulled any other lispy packages.
2017-02-25T22:52:41Z phoe: it's possible that there's a gentoo asdf package.
2017-02-25T22:52:43Z Xach: shrdlu68: Well, as a short-term fix, you can simply delete that directory. Longer-term better would be to find out who owns that location and uninstall thoroughly.
2017-02-25T22:52:56Z shrdlu68: Ok.
2017-02-25T22:53:03Z Xach: Longer longer term would be to fix CL packaging everywhere!
2017-02-25T22:53:23Z drmeister: How do Common Lisp programmers deal with *default-pathname-defaults*?   Do you set it to whatever directory you are working in before you do any work with files?  I'm still a little confused about how it works with the unix current directory.
2017-02-25T22:54:02Z phoe: drmeister: SBCL sets it to the CWD, I think.
2017-02-25T22:54:05Z Xach: drmeister: I very, very occasionally bind it to some directory where I want to work with a number of relatively addressed files.
2017-02-25T22:54:22Z phoe: I mean, by default.
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2017-02-25T22:54:28Z phoe: ECL seems to do the same.
2017-02-25T22:54:33Z Xach: drmeister: as late as a couple years ago, scieneer cl did not properly merge every file operation with *default-pathname-defaults*.
2017-02-25T22:54:46Z Xach: behavior inherited, i think, from cmucl, which was fixed only a few years prior to that
2017-02-25T22:54:53Z jurov: shrdlu68: you can do equery b /usr/share/common-lisp/source/uiop/ to check
2017-02-25T22:55:04Z jurov: on my gentoo it says dev-lisp/uiop-3.1.5
2017-02-25T22:55:24Z shrdlu68: Yeah, these are the culprits:
2017-02-25T22:55:25Z shrdlu68: [ebuild  r  U  ] dev-lisp/asdf-3.1.5 [3.0.3]
2017-02-25T22:55:25Z shrdlu68: [ebuild     U  ] dev-lisp/uiop-3.1.5 [3.0.3]
2017-02-25T22:56:02Z Xach: drmeister: It is not good to take too much meaning from the initial value of *default-pathname-defaults*. if you want to refer to resources relative to some directory, it can be better to get values of *load-truename*/*compile-file-truename* or asdf:system-relative-pathname.
2017-02-25T22:56:21Z Xach: drmeister: or (user-homedir-pathname), or some special variable that a user customizes
2017-02-25T22:56:33Z Xach: like *my-great-project-base-directory* or something.
2017-02-25T22:56:37Z Xach: or logical pathnames
2017-02-25T22:57:10Z phoe: shrdlu68: remove them.
2017-02-25T22:58:08Z Xach: Time for me to go -- good luck shrdlu68!
2017-02-25T22:59:45Z shrdlu68: Success! Thank you guys!
2017-02-25T23:00:44Z drmeister: I'm setting up a "friendlier" environment where file operations would start in the users home directory and they could tell the system to switch to other directories relative to their home directory.  So (cd "/some/directory") puts them in $HOME/some/directory/
2017-02-25T23:02:14Z phoe: drmeister: the "/" at the beginning of the string will be troublesome
2017-02-25T23:02:21Z axion: That is...counterinutitive
2017-02-25T23:02:23Z phoe: ^
2017-02-25T23:02:42Z drmeister: It is
2017-02-25T23:02:49Z phoe: I'd rather have (cd "some/directory") - it works better.
2017-02-25T23:03:05Z phoe: drmeister: you might want to call this thing a chroot of sorts
2017-02-25T23:03:44Z phoe: if you want to restrict all operations to a /foo/bar/ directory, you could bind some *chroot* var to "/foo/bar" and then you can go (cd "/baz/quux")
2017-02-25T23:03:57Z phoe: that's what the unixlikes call such a behaviour - a chroot/fakeroot.
2017-02-25T23:04:04Z drmeister: That's kind of what it is.  It's running within a docker container.   The docker container has access to their home directory.
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2017-02-25T23:06:19Z phoe: My advice - actually call it a chroot.
2017-02-25T23:06:38Z phoe: (setf *chroot* "/home/foo/bar") will be intuitive to almost all unixpeople.
2017-02-25T23:06:54Z phoe: especially if it's bound to NIL or "/" by default.
2017-02-25T23:07:01Z drmeister: (chroot "/foo/bar")   *default-pathname-defaults* -> "/src/foo/bar" which maps to $HOME/foo/bar   ?
2017-02-25T23:07:09Z phoe: no no
2017-02-25T23:07:32Z phoe: chroot "/foo/bar" means that basically
2017-02-25T23:07:42Z phoe: /dir1/file1 in the chrooted environment
2017-02-25T23:07:59Z phoe: maps to /foo/bar/dir1/file1 in the outside environment
2017-02-25T23:08:19Z drmeister: Which outside environment?  I have two
2017-02-25T23:08:40Z phoe: a chroot basically grabs a directory and forces it to become the new root of your filesystem.
2017-02-25T23:08:46Z drmeister: Nevermind - I see what you are getting at.
2017-02-25T23:08:51Z phoe: I don't know. I'd need to have more information about what you have and what you need.
2017-02-25T23:08:58Z drmeister: Don't have a chroot command.
2017-02-25T23:09:07Z phoe: Well, you don't need one.
2017-02-25T23:09:31Z phoe: You can "emulate" one within Clasp, if that's what you want to do and what I guess.
2017-02-25T23:09:50Z drmeister: I wanted to give them something to change the current directory, so that they don't have to explicitly state it every time.
2017-02-25T23:09:59Z phoe: Oh, um.
2017-02-25T23:10:05Z phoe: I think UIOP has such a facility, for example.
2017-02-25T23:10:28Z phoe: You might want to contact Fare on the specifics - he's the person I'd ask about any pathname stuff.
2017-02-25T23:10:36Z drmeister: This isn't clasp.   It's Cando, a computational chemistry environment where the user has access to everything under their home directory but nothing outside.
2017-02-25T23:10:45Z phoe: I see.
2017-02-25T23:10:47Z drmeister: I can deviate from Common Lisp behavior here.
2017-02-25T23:10:57Z drmeister: But it's all built on Common Lisp.
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2017-02-25T23:11:31Z phoe: I have a question. Why cannot you use the default Linux permissions here?
2017-02-25T23:11:49Z phoe: Like, create a user on a Linux system.
2017-02-25T23:11:52Z drmeister: I'm running Cando within Docker - that lets me map a directory on the users system to a docker directory (I use /src).   So every file access that the user does is relative to /src/...    and that maps to $HOME/...
2017-02-25T23:12:09Z phoe: Mhm.
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2017-02-25T23:12:27Z drmeister: It's Docker - it's a thin virtual machine that runs on the system.
2017-02-25T23:12:32Z phoe: Yes, I got it.
2017-02-25T23:12:53Z phoe: So basically, $HOME/foo on the Docker translates to /src/foo on the bare metal.
2017-02-25T23:12:59Z drmeister: So - I don't understand the question.
2017-02-25T23:13:09Z drmeister: The other way around.
2017-02-25T23:13:24Z drmeister: $HOME/foo on the bare metal translates to /src/foo in the Docker environment.
2017-02-25T23:13:29Z phoe: Oh. /src/foo on Docker is $HOME/foo on the bare metal.
2017-02-25T23:13:34Z drmeister: Yup
2017-02-25T23:13:59Z phoe: Okay. Is this the expected behaviour from your side?
2017-02-25T23:14:01Z drmeister: So they can access files within the user directories.
2017-02-25T23:14:22Z phoe: Mhm.
2017-02-25T23:14:58Z drmeister: It's what it is.  I'm trying to figure out the semantics of a straightforward command that would let them move around their user directory hierarchy. /src/** -->  $HOME/**
2017-02-25T23:15:23Z phoe: To be absolutely blunt, I'd go for mount.
2017-02-25T23:15:53Z phoe: mount --bind /src/ /home/foo/ or something like that.
2017-02-25T23:16:05Z phoe: This is likely to need sudo access or being put in the fstab.
2017-02-25T23:16:09Z phoe: If I understand your question correctly.
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2017-02-25T23:16:35Z phoe: Damn, I wish we had a whiteboard.
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2017-02-25T23:27:54Z drmeister: I'm not that familiar with docker to know if that's possible or desirable.
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2017-02-25T23:36:16Z phoe: Neither am I, sadly.
2017-02-25T23:36:24Z phoe: Maybe the docker IRC channels will tell you more.
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2017-02-26T00:01:09Z drmeister: phoe: What I'm not telling you is I also want whatever command I end up with to set *default-pathname-defaults* properly on a normal inferior-lisp/slime session.
2017-02-26T00:02:03Z drmeister: Sorry to sound so confusing.  I'll figure out what I want - it's complicated.
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2017-02-26T00:07:01Z phoe: drmeister: this looks like something you can solve with a mixture of unix utils and some lines of Common Lisp code.
2017-02-26T00:07:03Z drmeister: What I really want?   Is something like (set-current-directory "$HOME/foo/bar")  that when running in Docker translates to /src/foo/bar and when running locally translates to /Users/meister/foo/bar.
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2017-02-26T00:07:16Z phoe: Hm.
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2017-02-26T00:07:29Z drmeister: Could hostnames work?
2017-02-26T00:07:31Z phoe: So you want /src in one environment and /Users/meister in the other environment.
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2017-02-26T00:07:50Z drmeister: (set-current-directory "home:/foo/bar")
2017-02-26T00:07:50Z ebrasca: phoe: hi
2017-02-26T00:07:55Z phoe: ebrasca: hey
2017-02-26T00:08:20Z phoe: drmeister: I can't help you with pathnames. They're still way too confusing for me.
2017-02-26T00:08:54Z drmeister: I never understood (setf (logical-pathname-translations xxx) ...)  enough to make it do what I want.   Could that do this?
2017-02-26T00:09:00Z phoe: But the naïve approach for me is, make a function that finds out whether the Lisp image is running in a Docker container.
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2017-02-26T00:09:19Z drmeister: I can set a :docker *feature*
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2017-02-26T00:09:21Z phoe: If true, then somehow append "/src" in front of each pathname.
2017-02-26T00:09:32Z phoe: If false, then somehow append "/Users/meister" in front of each pathname.
2017-02-26T00:09:57Z phoe: So, er. Dunno. Set your default pathname to a different value, depending on whether you have a :docker feature.
2017-02-26T00:10:08Z phoe: That's the simple and naïve approach that I thought of.
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2017-02-26T02:27:19Z phoe hums a merry tune
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2017-02-26T02:29:01Z Bike: when they tell you must take it / and you think hell no / got a bad feeling and can't shake it / hits so low / lord of the game
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2017-02-26T02:48:29Z drmeister: I'd love a slime command that evaluated the sexp at point and pasted the result after the form in #| ... |# commented form so that it won't be evaluated if the entire file is evaluated.
2017-02-26T02:48:48Z drmeister: Is there anything like that buried in slime somewhere?
2017-02-26T02:49:05Z drmeister: A poor-person's notebook.
2017-02-26T02:52:52Z Bike: not that i know of, but it seems like it should be reasonably easy to do...
2017-02-26T02:53:19Z Bike: a little modification to slime-eval-print-last-expression, maybe
2017-02-26T02:53:37Z Bike: though that has... quite some latency.
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2017-02-26T02:57:22Z Bike: ugh, it's async so it works weirdly.
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2017-02-26T03:15:05Z Bike: i have something that sort of works but it has a pause for asynchronousness and i don't know enough about slime to remove it.
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2017-02-26T03:21:16Z Bike: drmeister: http://paste.lisp.org/+7ABZ
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2017-02-26T03:22:34Z drmeister: Thank you!
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2017-02-26T03:42:49Z holycow: hi all
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2017-02-26T03:45:59Z phoe: hey holycow
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2017-02-26T06:08:17Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-26T06:16:31Z holycow: o/
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2017-02-26T06:30:46Z krwq: hello, how do you check if your code is being run as compiled executable? i have some problems with paths, when i run my app under slime i prefer to use paths relative to package while when app is compiled the package folder doesnt exist so i'd like to use current working directory
2017-02-26T06:31:10Z krwq: the only idea i have is to set some variable whe saving the image but i'm wondering if there is some better way
2017-02-26T06:32:43Z Bike: Do you control the build process?
2017-02-26T06:32:51Z BusFactor1: Here's some experiemental sounds from the Common Lisp audio synthesizer I'm writing: http://dropclickpaste.com/#CwdmCYGMBNwNgIYE4AMkDMm4rgVgKYIAc4AjCiqetJEgEa7DrB3ojRA
2017-02-26T06:33:00Z krwq: Bike: yes
2017-02-26T06:33:03Z Bike: Becuase when you dump an image you specify a start function. You could have that function set a compiled-image-p variable to true.
2017-02-26T06:33:05Z BusFactor1: It sort of sounds like abstract techno
2017-02-26T06:34:24Z krwq: Bike: that's what I was thinking but I was wondering if there is some already predefined macro or something for that
2017-02-26T06:35:09Z Bike: well there's nothing standard, and i don't think there's anything very portable
2017-02-26T06:35:20Z Bike: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Saving-a-Core-Image maybe *core-pathname*? dunno
2017-02-26T06:35:35Z Bike: BusFactor1: very bassy, but i can't say i'm fond of losing the beat
2017-02-26T06:35:41Z BusFactor1: Each synth is defined like this: (player (generate-sine :frequencyr (sine-1 100 100) :volumer 4000 :filter 15 :clip 7000 :samples 88200) 4.1) and generated at run time.
2017-02-26T06:35:55Z BusFactor1: Yeah, I'm working on synching the sounds more from a sequencing perspective.
2017-02-26T06:36:05Z krwq: BusFactor1: what's that r suffix?
2017-02-26T06:36:08Z beach: BusFactor1: I like it!
2017-02-26T06:36:27Z BusFactor1: It's. concept I'm using called 'typers'
2017-02-26T06:36:38Z krwq: what's that?
2017-02-26T06:36:44Z BusFactor1: They're variables that can be either number values or functions
2017-02-26T06:37:01Z BusFactor1: That can be composed at run time.  Sort of a syntax for dynamic runtime generated variables.
2017-02-26T06:37:09Z krwq: Bike: actually i think better solution is to give a switch for each function which would change logic which means id have to set it explicitly
2017-02-26T06:37:11Z Bike: and a number is an abbreviation for... constant? frequency?
2017-02-26T06:37:30Z BusFactor1: yes, they for generating signals of numbers
2017-02-26T06:37:44Z BusFactor1: i havea few of them defined, like ramp, sine and envelope
2017-02-26T06:37:57Z BusFactor1: so you can pass them into variables for the sine generation
2017-02-26T06:38:07Z BusFactor1: to get varying parameters like frequencies and volumes
2017-02-26T06:38:08Z krwq: BusFactor1: did you consider using simply symbols and symbol macros?
2017-02-26T06:38:18Z BusFactor1: not at this point yet
2017-02-26T06:38:48Z BusFactor1: but i can see how my functions can be optimized as macros
2017-02-26T06:39:30Z BusFactor1: to use a 'typer' variable, you wrap it in something like a cast, like (floatr x) to get the float value of a typer x
2017-02-26T06:40:05Z krwq: BusFactor1: i used to have similar concept when i was playing with html5 drawing in javascript
2017-02-26T06:40:28Z BusFactor1: i i like the idea of syntacticly functional variables
2017-02-26T06:40:59Z BusFactor1: with every variable being a function called at runtime...it allows for easy composibilty in the synth
2017-02-26T06:41:04Z krwq: BusFactor1: it gets quite cumbersome after a while while in lisp the symbol macrolets will shorten and clarify what's going on
2017-02-26T06:41:35Z BusFactor1: i find my method of wrapping the variable in a cast like structure is actually quite natural and compact
2017-02-26T06:41:54Z BusFactor1: and it encodes more type information into the variable usage
2017-02-26T06:41:57Z krwq: BusFactor1: but you're right there's no point of prematurely doing too much, you can write a simple macro in the end to fix that
2017-02-26T06:42:23Z krwq: get it to work, create something fun :)
2017-02-26T06:42:33Z BusFactor1: :) yeah
2017-02-26T06:42:44Z BusFactor1: i'm planning on releasing my next album with full source code for the generation of it
2017-02-26T06:43:07Z krwq: BusFactor1: nice! put it on youtube with tiny demo of how to use apis
2017-02-26T06:43:28Z BusFactor1: planning on that in the future
2017-02-26T06:43:32Z Bike: hard mode: song with source readable in its spectrum
2017-02-26T06:43:43Z BusFactor1: totally
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2017-02-26T06:45:49Z Bike: hm, slime-macroexpand doesn't bind *print-readably* true, i'm not sure if that's good or bad
2017-02-26T06:46:45Z krwq: Bike: bad
2017-02-26T06:46:51Z krwq: Bike: inconvenient = bad
2017-02-26T06:47:17Z Bike: but if people mostly use it for inspection, and printing readably  makes it ugly enough...
2017-02-26T06:47:43Z krwq: inspection could rebind that
2017-02-26T06:49:45Z Bike: i mean, inspection like just looking at it, rather than pasting it somewhere
2017-02-26T06:51:32Z Bike: oh, it's customizable though
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2017-02-26T07:19:22Z slark: hi, why '(quote foo) or the equivalent (list 'quote 'foo) evaluate to 'foo on my repl ? i tought that '(quote foo) should return (quote foo) on my repl, like '(+ 1 1) returns (+ 1 1)
2017-02-26T07:19:33Z slark: does quote have something special ?
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2017-02-26T07:20:22Z beach: slark: It is just that the Common Lisp printer prints (quote foo) as 'foo.
2017-02-26T07:21:09Z slark: ok so 'foo is a list?
2017-02-26T07:21:16Z beach: Yes.
2017-02-26T07:21:30Z slark: (first 'foo) returns me an error
2017-02-26T07:22:00Z beach: slark: That is because FIRST is a function so it evaluates its argument.
2017-02-26T07:22:27Z beach: Try (first '(quote foo)).
2017-02-26T07:22:36Z slark: indeed :)
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2017-02-26T07:23:13Z slark: thx i got it :)
2017-02-26T07:23:31Z beach: The printer uses that syntax because when 'foo is seen by READ, then the list (QUOTE FOO) is returned.
2017-02-26T07:23:39Z beach: slark: Anytime.
2017-02-26T07:23:40Z slark: it is like pointer in C this level of indirection can be hard to understand
2017-02-26T07:24:05Z edgar-rft: (listp 'foo) => NIL
2017-02-26T07:24:28Z beach: slark: Indeed.  But it is perfectly consistent, so the rule is easy to learn.
2017-02-26T07:25:45Z slark: edgar-rft: (listp ''foo) is what we need
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2017-02-26T07:26:17Z edgar-rft: but LISP say that 'foo is *not* a list
2017-02-26T07:26:30Z beach: edgar-rft: What are you trying to say?
2017-02-26T07:26:37Z beach: slark: You are already picking it up.
2017-02-26T07:26:43Z slark: :)
2017-02-26T07:26:50Z reepca`: (read-from-string "'foo") => (quote foo), unless I misunderstand
2017-02-26T07:27:20Z reepca`: evaluating 'foo just produces FOO the symbol, though. When we talk about what some string representation "is" I assume we mean what it gets read in as, right?
2017-02-26T07:28:26Z edgar-rft: beach: sorry, better attempt, I agree that 'foo is read as (quote foo), but why then does (litp 'foo) return NIL?
2017-02-26T07:28:46Z slark: edgar-rft: well understand that 'foo is (quote foo) literatly if you want to pass it to listp you have to (listp '(quote foo)), (listp (quote foo)) is not what we need
2017-02-26T07:29:00Z beach: edgar-rft: Because LISTP is a function, so the argument gets evaluated before the function is applied.
2017-02-26T07:29:28Z edgar-rft: beach: perfectly explained, thank you!
2017-02-26T07:29:52Z beach: Sure.
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2017-02-26T08:07:02Z beach: My USE finder is working out quite well.  It would be even better to have that functionality in Second Climacs, though.  At the moment, all symbols in a file that are imported from a different package are returned.  In Second Climacs, I could (once I implement that functionality) avoid returning lexical variables.
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2017-02-26T08:12:28Z BusFactor1: Here's another track from my synth: http://dropclickpaste.com/#AwRgrCBGAmIEwDYAsBjJB2Md1wJwA50Rw8AzUgQ3QujDHwFMRpcHgg
2017-02-26T08:12:59Z BusFactor1: I'm into industrial.
2017-02-26T08:15:37Z beach: Your files crash my Firefox.
2017-02-26T08:16:02Z BusFactor1: Wierd.
2017-02-26T08:16:09Z BusFactor1: The mp3s?
2017-02-26T08:24:45Z beach: I don't know.  I just click on a link and soon afterwards, my Firefox crashes.
2017-02-26T08:29:48Z BusFactor1: Sorry about that. Maybe it 's the site.  Here's another direct link: http://busfactor1.ca/kruhft%20-%20new%20synth%207%20-%202017.mp3
2017-02-26T08:31:24Z beach: Thanks.
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2017-02-26T11:21:10Z dim: is MCCLIM ready for general use on macosx?
2017-02-26T11:21:49Z dim: my goal here is to play at discovering programming with the kids, I'd like to do something visual for starters, maybe code our own little minesweeper game
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2017-02-26T11:29:19Z beach: dim: You need to ask jackdaniel.
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2017-02-26T11:29:46Z beach: It might require an X11 server.
2017-02-26T11:32:59Z ym: Is there a live Lisp VM on FPGA projects?
2017-02-26T11:33:25Z TMA: dim: it definitely is not for general use on windows. it needs X11 everywhere
2017-02-26T11:35:01Z dim: X11 might not be a blocker in macosx
2017-02-26T11:35:41Z dim: supposing that's ok, can I use it a a full IDE where you can live edit the code you're running?
2017-02-26T11:36:48Z beach: I don't see why not.
2017-02-26T11:37:28Z beach: You have the CLIM listener, Climacs, Clouseau, the CLIM debugger (similar to the SLIME debugger, i.e., not a debugger at all).
2017-02-26T11:37:30Z dim: excellent, will try that then
2017-02-26T11:37:48Z dim: it's just that I don't know where to set my expectations really beach
2017-02-26T11:37:59Z beach: Yes, I understand.
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2017-02-26T11:52:05Z fourier: dim: there is a "scratch language" for kids to learn how to program
2017-02-26T11:54:37Z dim: they have played with it a little, I don't like it too much
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2017-02-26T11:55:20Z fourier: then probably scheme && "the little schemer" could be a thing? with dr racket
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2017-02-26T12:01:30Z dim: yeah we did some with dr racket but there I need to learn a lot
2017-02-26T12:02:21Z dim: I just had the idea that MCCLIM might actually be exactly what I want, a kind of more visual Emacs environment where you can program and interact with your code and draw things
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2017-02-26T12:05:13Z varjag: dim: mcclim would be way over the top to introduce kids into programming imo
2017-02-26T12:05:51Z varjag: i second the suggestion of scratch
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2017-02-26T12:09:33Z dim: as a kid I loved programming on pen&paper
2017-02-26T12:10:07Z dim: I don't think you learn/teach the same things with scratch and visual blocks and with writing (pseudo-) code
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2017-02-26T12:13:06Z varjag: they use python for that here
2017-02-26T12:13:40Z varjag: but for 6-8 y.o. kids scratch is more effective than pseudocoded
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2017-02-26T12:14:58Z varjag: programming in mcclim requires good command of common lisp and understanding of quite advanced ui concepts
2017-02-26T12:15:01Z fourier: CL is not a best language for education of kids anyway
2017-02-26T12:15:07Z varjag: i can't see a novice doing well there
2017-02-26T12:15:43Z varjag: hell a huge portion of professional programmers would struggle with it :)
2017-02-26T12:15:55Z fourier: +1
2017-02-26T12:16:11Z varjag: it is powerful, but the learning curve is steep
2017-02-26T12:20:17Z pjb: varjag: you wouldn't use or teach 100% of the CL language to kids.
2017-02-26T12:20:32Z pjb: Lisp is a very good language to teach kids.
2017-02-26T12:21:06Z pjb: You just need some integrated and easy environment.
2017-02-26T12:23:19Z fourier: Lisp yes, CL not. learn programming with CL is as hard as learn programming with C++
2017-02-26T12:24:37Z parjanya: who knows the effect of learning Lisp first would have, this might be a very interesting thing to test
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2017-02-26T12:25:26Z varjag: pjb: there is no such environment and i don't see anyone on making it, so the point is moot
2017-02-26T12:25:44Z varjag: you can use cl in lieu of python later sure
2017-02-26T12:26:10Z varjag: but not in elementary school stage
2017-02-26T12:26:58Z varjag: btw logo was based on lisp, and perhaps the earliest effort of that kind
2017-02-26T12:27:58Z varjag: the python intro courses for kids use logo-like drawing library still
2017-02-26T12:28:17Z fourier: I would love kids studying "guide to packages" or reader macros, studying anaphoric macros in a mean time
2017-02-26T12:28:42Z fourier: it's a joke
2017-02-26T12:29:27Z fourier: and of course doing it all in Slime, studying Emacs lisp in parallel
2017-02-26T12:29:34Z varjag: you don't study anaphoric macros unless you're child of paul graham!
2017-02-26T12:31:15Z varjag: there's an enthusiast programme here in norway for learining kids to code
2017-02-26T12:31:15Z pjb: varjag: python is not better than lisp, either.
2017-02-26T12:31:44Z pjb: There's Smalltalk (squeak), and a few other kid-specific languages and environments.
2017-02-26T12:32:00Z pjb: You don't study emacs!
2017-02-26T12:32:31Z pjb: If you're told about it, you may run the emacs tutorial, but otherwise you just jump into emacs: it's intuitive.
2017-02-26T12:32:36Z varjag: pjb: squeak is what is used to implement scratch
2017-02-26T12:32:41Z varjag: that we were talking about
2017-02-26T12:32:56Z pjb: (ie. you type a letter, and it inserts a letter, contrarily to some other editor of the vi conviction).
2017-02-26T12:33:20Z pjb: varjag: indeed.
2017-02-26T12:33:39Z pjb: varjag: now the only remaining problem for the age range discussed, is that scratch is in English.
2017-02-26T12:33:58Z varjag: so, the programme here uses scratch at the earliest stages
2017-02-26T12:34:18Z varjag: then to more exciting things like making minecraft mods with it
2017-02-26T12:34:29Z TMA was taught pascal initially
2017-02-26T12:34:35Z varjag: then python starting at the age 10 and over
2017-02-26T12:34:49Z varjag: to me it's fairly reasonable
2017-02-26T12:35:05Z varjag: also it's much easier to find volunteer python trainers than lisp
2017-02-26T12:35:15Z pjb: From 10 you can learn scheme or Common Lisp.  Python is horrible (worse than ruby).
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2017-02-26T12:35:36Z TMA: do not poison the kid's brain with python, please, use CL or Scheme
2017-02-26T12:35:48Z _death: logo
2017-02-26T12:36:02Z varjag: TMA: well you admitted you started with pascal, still survived
2017-02-26T12:36:04Z varjag: :p
2017-02-26T12:36:09Z dim: maybe we should stop considering that kids are stupid?
2017-02-26T12:36:38Z varjag: maybe we should stop talking in cliches
2017-02-26T12:36:45Z dim: that too ;-)
2017-02-26T12:36:49Z TMA: varjag: the other option was basic
2017-02-26T12:36:56Z _death: a kid should start with a retro machine.. logo, assembly, basic... but that's my path so I may be biased :)
2017-02-26T12:37:02Z varjag: kids are not stupid, but they are not fully developed
2017-02-26T12:37:07Z varjag: that's why they are kids
2017-02-26T12:37:13Z pjb: pascal is a good programming language (way better than C). Of course, you could teach kids pascal (for the typed procedural kind of programming languages), but there are better choices, such as Modula-2, Oberon or Modula-3.
2017-02-26T12:37:24Z dim: _death: I want to transform my RPi here into exactly that, a lisp machine like environment would be a dream
2017-02-26T12:37:24Z pjb: _death: agreed1
2017-02-26T12:37:26Z pjb: !
2017-02-26T12:37:42Z varjag: then you have some unusually bright kids with inclination to programming
2017-02-26T12:37:56Z varjag: so a question is, would you focus on them, with exclusion of the rest?
2017-02-26T12:38:06Z dim: nope, you just offer them a computer screen where they can do *anything*
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2017-02-26T12:38:09Z varjag: then yeah you can maybe start with haskell and monads at age 9
2017-02-26T12:38:17Z dim: they won't attack Quake, rather minesweeper
2017-02-26T12:38:35Z dim: the first computer "game" that my first born got fond of was cat
2017-02-26T12:38:41Z pjb: Or, if we had a high level sophisticated professionnal programming environment, we could directly throw them on it, but that's not the case (Xcode is horrible for the languages it compiles, I won't even mention Android Studio).
2017-02-26T12:38:44Z dim: you type in anything, and it says it back!
2017-02-26T12:38:48Z dim: even sware words!
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2017-02-26T12:39:14Z pjb: dim: there's a tom cat app on tables that repeats what you say.
2017-02-26T12:39:27Z dim: they loved it too
2017-02-26T12:40:05Z varjag: anyway, my point was that clim is a horrible start for a kid
2017-02-26T12:40:24Z dim: varjag: the fun thing about kids is that they don't have a clue about what is complex or sophisticated, they just want to have fun
2017-02-26T12:40:33Z dim: make monads fun and they will love them
2017-02-26T12:40:40Z dim: just don't tell them they are a complex beast to master
2017-02-26T12:40:53Z varjag: dim: right, so you just throw a riemann hypothesis on them and get a proof back
2017-02-26T12:41:02Z dim: of course not
2017-02-26T12:41:03Z _death: https://www.lively-kernel.org/ could be an inspiration
2017-02-26T12:41:05Z varjag: little divine black boxes
2017-02-26T12:41:05Z dim: oh I think I see
2017-02-26T12:41:15Z dim: I don't want them to become particulary good at programming
2017-02-26T12:41:21Z dim: just to share the fun *I* have when I do
2017-02-26T12:41:39Z dim: and I have fun in CL, certainly not in scratch
2017-02-26T12:41:41Z varjag: dim: how much experience you have with programming in clim?
2017-02-26T12:41:53Z varjag: i just made a little detour into it
2017-02-26T12:41:56Z varjag: wasn't easy
2017-02-26T12:41:57Z dim: none at the moment, that's why I am asking questions here
2017-02-26T12:42:02Z varjag: *sigh*
2017-02-26T12:42:16Z dim: well I intend to play with it before trying with the kids
2017-02-26T12:42:26Z varjag: well start now
2017-02-26T12:42:44Z dim: I just tried printing unicode characters on the termninal with several ncurses based lib and failed miserably
2017-02-26T12:42:48Z dim: next up is MCCLIM
2017-02-26T12:43:46Z dim: like try and use ⚑ ♣ and maybe ☲ in the terminal...
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2017-02-26T12:44:13Z beach: dim: My application Transclime for learning Vietnamese uses McCLIM.  The characters are displayed just fine.
2017-02-26T12:44:31Z dim: awesome, I already feel like making progress
2017-02-26T12:44:49Z dim: I have quite a TODO on my plate already but with some luck will get down to trying MCCLIM later today
2017-02-26T12:47:25Z fourier: pjb: I find XCode really good at what it does. Defining actions on buttons by drag&drop buttons to the parts of code where you want to have callback? awesome! don't remember any other environment like this. It has its downsides (like crashes on refactoring attempts), but it is really good integrated with llvm, and a profiler is great as well.
2017-02-26T12:50:36Z fourier: never tried Android Studio, but IDEA which it is based on is fantastic for Java and Android development. Nothing is better.
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2017-02-26T12:53:18Z pjb: fourier: it's good, but what I mean is that for newbies, it drags a lot of history and "unintegrated" pieces.  Assuming that AI won't do all our programming in 50 years, imagine what kind of development environment you would want to work with, and what kind of programming language!
2017-02-26T12:57:12Z fourier: aah
2017-02-26T12:58:28Z beach: dim: I just double checked that it also works in the listener.  It does: http://metamodular.com/CLIM-listener.png
2017-02-26T12:59:18Z dim: wow, ok I need to try that ;-)
2017-02-26T12:59:32Z dim: lots to learn
2017-02-26T12:59:39Z beach: Indeed.
2017-02-26T13:01:21Z fourier: for newbies as I said, it looks like there is nothing better than Scratch or DrRacket. I personally believe kids could get easy with Python as well - it is highly accessible, intuitive and its documentation is great
2017-02-26T13:03:51Z myrkraverk: fourier: python has some drawbacks when it comes to nontrivial projects though (but I didn't write what those were, and don't remember the details anymore)
2017-02-26T13:03:53Z dim: for kids my constraints are: 1. you control *all* that happens on the screen (console is great) 2. you can play interactively with the code you write 3. you don't have to learn what a file is and how to compile it and what is a binary image
2017-02-26T13:04:09Z dim: don't even mention PATH or LD_LIBRARY_PATH or anything environment really
2017-02-26T13:04:16Z dim: that's why I like CL for kids
2017-02-26T13:04:18Z myrkraverk: dim: that's a nice constraint to begin with.
2017-02-26T13:04:40Z myrkraverk: racket is nice (but i don't remember how it holds up to those constraints)
2017-02-26T13:05:01Z myrkraverk: dim: you can always start with elisp if you want ;p
2017-02-26T13:05:08Z dim: I don't think you can learn python without being introduced to the file system and what is a text editor first
2017-02-26T13:05:18Z myrkraverk: dim: true.
2017-02-26T13:05:33Z myrkraverk: though, you can introduce people to a python repl of sorts.
2017-02-26T13:05:39Z fourier: dim: I guess no problems with all of that with DrRacket IDE
2017-02-26T13:05:50Z dim: myrkraverk: true, but it's not visual enough for my taste and ambitions, which is on top of the constraints
2017-02-26T13:05:59Z myrkraverk: dim: understood.
2017-02-26T13:06:20Z dim: MCCLIM might just be what I want here, I'm kind of excited
2017-02-26T13:06:20Z fourier: there is also python notebooks
2017-02-26T13:06:43Z dim: first, some pgloader bugs to get done with, then re-publish tapoueh.org, then my weekly reporting, then MCCLIM, tho
2017-02-26T13:06:45Z fourier: and Wolfram Mathematica, which is also awesome
2017-02-26T13:08:28Z dim: a “nice to have” that I think I'm going to forget about is that it should be easy to show up to a friend's place with what you did and show them and play with it with them
2017-02-26T13:09:14Z dim: that implies your usb stick embeds a Portable self-contained thing that can run on windows, mac or linux --- even game studios don't make that
2017-02-26T13:09:50Z dim: anyway
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2017-02-26T13:33:18Z fourier: actually it looks like Scratch is not English-oriented
2017-02-26T13:33:34Z fourier: it supports around 50 languages
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2017-02-26T13:53:15Z dim: scratch is pretty good at sharing what you did with friends
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2017-02-26T14:12:13Z dim: does https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune rings a bell here for anyone?
2017-02-26T14:12:18Z beach: Yes.
2017-02-26T14:13:52Z beach: He has contributed several things to McCLIM, and I think he uses the McCLIM tools and applications almost exclusively.
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2017-02-26T14:14:29Z beach: My new tool "the USE finder" is a step in the right direction, but Emacs lacks the ability to distinguish between different roles of a symbol.
2017-02-26T14:14:30Z beach: So, even though I have a list of all the symbols in a file that do not have package markers and that have a different home package than the package of the file being read, it is still a lot of work to add explicit package markers.
2017-02-26T14:14:51Z Xach: beach: i like that idea very much
2017-02-26T14:15:04Z Xach: beach: i wonder what percentage of such uses are accidental
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2017-02-26T14:15:30Z beach: Not much from what I have seen so far, but enough to be annoying.
2017-02-26T14:15:45Z Xach: many implementations make it hard to accidentally do that with the CL package, but package locking for other packages is uncommon
2017-02-26T14:16:19Z beach: Right.
2017-02-26T14:16:19Z Xach: someone suggested auto-locking as a post-load operation but i have not tried it yet
2017-02-26T14:17:14Z dim: it happens to me a lot when I evaluate code interactively (C-M-x or C-c C-l) with references to symbols from another package that are not yet exported/imported, and symbols are mistakenly interned into the current package
2017-02-26T14:17:30Z dim: I think when it happens in other situation that's a bug...
2017-02-26T14:17:59Z dim: (or maybe I didn't understand the case at hand at all)
2017-02-26T14:18:07Z beach: Xach: I have already found some interesting problems.  For example Drei, the input editor of McCLIM :USEs the CLIM package and then it defines a function named POINT, and it also exports that symbol.
2017-02-26T14:18:28Z beach: So Drei is defining a function with a name that is taken from an imported package.
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2017-02-26T14:19:48Z beach: dim: My use case is basically the opposite from yours.  I would like to add explicit package markers to avoid :USE-ing external packages other than the COMMON-LISP package.
2017-02-26T14:19:52Z Xach: dim: the case is more like beach is describing, where a package :uses another, and the using package defines something with the inherited symbol without intending to
2017-02-26T14:20:22Z Xach: something that may be harmless at first but conflicting later
2017-02-26T14:20:30Z beach: Yep.
2017-02-26T14:20:41Z dim: oh I tend to do that on purpose in a file names monkey/<use-package-name>.lisp
2017-02-26T14:20:53Z dim: I like that it's possible to monkey patch one's way around
2017-02-26T14:21:04Z dim: but I agree that it should be made as explicit as possible
2017-02-26T14:21:26Z dim: e.g., see: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/monkey/bind.lisp
2017-02-26T14:21:34Z Xach: Yes, doing it on purpose is also fine - it is the accidental use that can be the most surprising.
2017-02-26T14:21:40Z dim: agreed
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2017-02-26T14:22:09Z Xach: That is why I have taken to start off with explicit :imports, but then I sometimes also wish to check that I am only importing external symbols
2017-02-26T14:22:24Z Xach: like if the interface changes
2017-02-26T14:22:27Z dim: this one: https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/monkey/mssql.lisp --- it really should be turned into a contribution to the original lib...
2017-02-26T14:26:12Z Xach: beach: another interesting (to me) variation is highlighting unnecessary uses of ::
2017-02-26T14:26:36Z Xach does not know how easy or difficult it would be
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2017-02-26T14:27:47Z beach: That won't be very hard, once I finish Second Climacs.  But what know how to do is to find a list of such cases including file positions.
2017-02-26T14:28:30Z beach: I mean, I have to tools to do that without Second Climacs.
2017-02-26T14:29:47Z beach: I can customize the SICL reader to process tokens with two package markers so that it checks whether the symbol with that name is exported or not.
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2017-02-26T14:55:21Z beach: Xach: It was a three line addition to my USE finder.  No file position yet, but the symbol is printed.
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2017-02-26T15:35:16Z beach: Hmm, maybe I should generate output that Emacs can parse with C-x `
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2017-02-26T15:41:03Z pjb: beach: alternatively, you may configure C-x ` with the variables: compilation-error-regexp-alist compilation-error-regexp-alist-alist 	
2017-02-26T15:41:17Z beach: Oh, I see.
2017-02-26T15:41:26Z beach: Thanks.
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2017-02-26T16:18:23Z parjanya: what is this? it looks very interesting. https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune
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2017-02-26T16:19:38Z dim: a fully loaded MCCLIM, parjanya, IIUC
2017-02-26T16:20:22Z parjanya: have you tried it?
2017-02-26T16:21:03Z dim: nope, MCCLIM is next on my list tho
2017-02-26T16:21:51Z parjanya: I’m very new to Lisp, but it’s on my list as well...
2017-02-26T16:22:10Z dim: but now that http://tapoueh.org is back online I am almost there to be able to have a look ;-)
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2017-02-26T16:24:28Z parjanya: dim: your blog? looks very nice, I’ll check Muse too
2017-02-26T16:24:54Z dim: I used to like Muse very much, but it's not a good bet these days really
2017-02-26T16:25:31Z dim: if I had to start over I would use Markdown or something like from this list: https://www.staticgen.com
2017-02-26T16:26:02Z parjanya: dim: I was going to ask that : o ) I’m about to use markdown +pandoc, just because I wrote my dissertation using that too
2017-02-26T16:26:20Z dim: ♥ pandoc
2017-02-26T16:26:56Z parjanya: it saved my life
2017-02-26T16:28:16Z parjanya: I had to make a pdf with a translation in facing pages, | original | translation |, and for that I parsed 2 markdown files with the same structure with pandoc, and parallelized (sp?) each chunk using the json output... quite ugly, hah, but it did work
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2017-02-26T16:29:19Z parjanya: about staticgen... good lord, too many options
2017-02-26T16:30:46Z shka: hi folks
2017-02-26T16:30:47Z |3b|: the lisp option sorts unexpectedly high on that list of site generators :)
2017-02-26T16:31:41Z |3b| isn't sure if having a relatively large number of issues is good or bad though... sign of users if nothing else i guess
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2017-02-26T16:33:11Z parjanya: hey, shka
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2017-02-26T16:54:52Z fourier: dim: Jekyll from this list supported by github very well
2017-02-26T16:56:20Z fourier: pandoc by the way is one of "killer apps" for Haskell
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2017-02-26T17:27:34Z BusFactor1: Here's a collection of all my new CL synthesizer test tracks all in one place: http://busfactor1.ca/kruhft/
2017-02-26T17:28:41Z BusFactor1: Here's some synth definitions: http://busfactor1.ca/kruhft/code.png
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2017-02-26T17:49:10Z pjb: BusFactor1: 404
2017-02-26T17:49:19Z pjb: both
2017-02-26T17:49:22Z BusFactor1: Just a sec, i'm playing with the server
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2017-02-26T17:51:21Z BusFactor1: Ok, it's back up
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2017-02-26T17:55:06Z parjanya: very interesting
2017-02-26T17:55:54Z parjanya: though I wouldn’t mind some polyphony : o )
2017-02-26T17:56:09Z BusFactor1: It's only single notes at the moment :)
2017-02-26T17:56:24Z BusFactor1: Getting to that.  Still working on the sequencing, it's very naive.
2017-02-26T17:56:59Z parjanya: how would you make a chord?
2017-02-26T17:57:01Z varjag: interesting
2017-02-26T17:57:24Z BusFactor1: Waves can take an arbitrary number of wave definitions, so I think I can make chords that way
2017-02-26T17:57:46Z BusFactor1: Or just play multiple generated sample at the same time
2017-02-26T17:58:03Z BusFactor1: I'm thinking I'll generate wave tables at compile time eventually
2017-02-26T17:58:04Z varjag: what do you use for audio output?
2017-02-26T17:58:20Z BusFactor1: LispWorks has a single function called play-sound
2017-02-26T17:58:29Z BusFactor1: That's it
2017-02-26T17:58:39Z varjag: ah, lw specific
2017-02-26T17:58:44Z BusFactor1: I figured out how to generate into the sound buffer
2017-02-26T17:59:04Z BusFactor1: For now yeah, if someone came up with a platform agnostic play-sound function it would be portable.
2017-02-26T17:59:38Z varjag: i've used cl-portaudio
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2017-02-26T17:59:50Z varjag: not sure if it sufficiently covers all the platforms though
2017-02-26T17:59:59Z varjag: certainly doesn't cover mezzano!
2017-02-26T18:00:17Z varjag: so i'm facing writing my own resampler code now
2017-02-26T18:00:25Z BusFactor1: I don't want to depend on any external libraries.  I'm trying to write stuff that's simple to package up to put into the App store and I haven't gotten to that part yet.
2017-02-26T18:00:39Z varjag: right
2017-02-26T18:00:54Z BusFactor1: And seeing how far I can go with such a simple api
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2017-02-26T18:46:41Z dim: (ql:quickload :mcclim) is ongoing ;-)
2017-02-26T18:48:45Z dim: beach: it looks like there's a whole set of additional packages I might want to install on-top of that, like maybe clouseau and climacs and clim-examples and maybe more, right?
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2017-02-26T18:53:10Z dim: Connection failure to X2816.0 server private/tmp/com.apple.launchd.xDUYWf1Ys9/org.macosforge.xquartz display 0: Protocol version mismatch
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2017-02-26T19:01:08Z beach: dim: Yes, Clouseau and Climacs are very useful.  So is the CLIM debugger if you are going to run everything standalone.  The CLIM debugger resembles the SLIME debugger.
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2017-02-26T19:04:39Z dim: what's the name of it as a quickload system?
2017-02-26T19:04:49Z dim: oh, clim-debugger
2017-02-26T19:05:29Z dim: (seems like the XQuartz upgrade needs me to reboot)
2017-02-26T19:08:17Z beach: Also the CLIM listener.  You run it like this (clim-listener:run-listener).
2017-02-26T19:09:03Z BusFactor1: Eturia, my little 'lisp machine' is back online: http://busfactor1.ca/bin/eturia/
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2017-02-26T19:09:28Z beach: dim: I am going to spend time with my (admittedly small) family the rest of the evening.  I'll be back tomorrow morning (UTC+1).  Good luck.
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2017-02-26T19:10:08Z TruePika: yet another reason to keep a TTY available on my server box itself:
2017-02-26T19:10:38Z TruePika: I'm running Flight Simulator on my main system, and just came up the idea (again) to automate that ATC game in bsdgames IIRC
2017-02-26T19:11:27Z TruePika: anyone here have experience with capturing "screen" data (say, through screen(1)) in CL?
2017-02-26T19:12:07Z dim: beach: thanks!
2017-02-26T19:12:10Z TruePika: e.g. able to access the character array as an array of stuff like codepoint, color, etc.
2017-02-26T19:12:10Z dim: have a good time ;-)
2017-02-26T19:12:30Z TruePika: ...meh, I forgot I don't have rlwrap on here
2017-02-26T19:13:06Z TruePika: ...and I don't have QL in my sbcl init here either...
2017-02-26T19:13:26Z oleo: just load the quicklisp/setup.lisp
2017-02-26T19:13:31Z TruePika: yeah, I am
2017-02-26T19:13:42Z TruePika: though, in hindsight, it _might_ be because this is only a PIII
2017-02-26T19:14:11Z BusFactor1: A quick introduction to Eturia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytxQynuaKiw
2017-02-26T19:14:11Z TruePika: with IIRC 192MB RAM, though that is unlikely to have much of an impact on compiliation time
2017-02-26T19:14:33Z TruePika: should probably dump the image with QL loaded eventually...
2017-02-26T19:15:15Z TruePika: well, that's not useful; (ql:system-apropos :screen) ==> #<SYSTEM cl-glfw-opengl-rend_screen_coordinates / cl-glfw-20150302-git / quicklisp 2016-06-28>
2017-02-26T19:15:45Z TruePika: was hoping there was a screen(1) interface already
2017-02-26T19:18:56Z dim: the loading of mcclim does invoke an "fc-match" utility that is very long...
2017-02-26T19:19:10Z dim: I though it was compilation time, apparently it's load-time
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2017-02-26T19:20:22Z TruePika is in 2 IRC channels trying to come up with a backbone architecture for a program, meanwhile his airplane is just hovering in the air since FSX is paused >_>
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2017-02-26T19:35:08Z raydeejay: is there anything similar to this thing http://paste.lisp.org/+7ADV that I perpetrated?
2017-02-26T19:37:12Z TruePika: okay, now I have an idea of how to interact with `screen`...now the big question is how to actually establish the required streams
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2017-02-26T20:03:06Z pjb: TruePika: you interact with screen by typing the screen escape character followed by a screen command, as documented in man screen.
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2017-02-26T20:03:55Z pjb: TruePika: you don't "automate" a terminal emulator/multiplexer.
2017-02-26T20:04:06Z pjb: I mean, this is not what you seem to be wanting to do here.
2017-02-26T20:04:29Z pjb: But anyways in general, the way to automate a terminal program, is to hook to it as a terminal.
2017-02-26T20:04:42Z pjb: One tool you can use to do that is expect.
2017-02-26T20:05:33Z pjb: Now, of course, you could run and drive screen with expect, and then write an expect script to create screen virtual terminals switch to them and run and interact with programs in screen virtual terminals.  If that's what you want…
2017-02-26T20:05:54Z TruePika: my goal is to automate the game atc(6)
2017-02-26T20:06:14Z pjb: Basically the secret ingredient in all this is the pty/tty couple. man pty
2017-02-26T20:07:00Z pjb: TruePika: Have a look at FlightGear.  It has already an automatic ATC (and also, user driven ATC workstations).
2017-02-26T20:07:20Z TruePika: pjb: wait, for the game that's in bsdgames?
2017-02-26T20:07:52Z TruePika: nope, that's not at all what I'm looking for
2017-02-26T20:07:53Z pjb: Why stop at the terminal level?  Hook a webcam in front of your screen, and do AI optical recognition.  Or directly hook into the internals of atc.
2017-02-26T20:08:18Z pjb: The atc in Flighgear is more realist of course…
2017-02-26T20:08:23Z pjb: realistic.
2017-02-26T20:09:32Z TruePika: pjb: do you even know what I'm referring to when I say atc(6)?
2017-02-26T20:09:44Z pjb: Actual automatic atcs don't use the graphical view: they run on the raw atc mesasges.
2017-02-26T20:09:52Z pjb: Yes, I've played a lot with atc(6).
2017-02-26T20:10:00Z TruePika: this isn't related to any flight simulators, except for my inspiration for restarting my project to automate it
2017-02-26T20:10:00Z pjb: I even have a port on iOS.
2017-02-26T20:10:30Z TruePika: I don't want to hook the internals, if I can help it
2017-02-26T20:10:57Z pjb: Flight Gear is a flight simulator, but since it's realistic, they also have ATCs, and humans to direct traffic, and automatic atc controller because there are not so many human having fun with atc.
2017-02-26T20:11:56Z pjb: TruePika: then really consider using a camera and optical recognition, so that you can write your atc controller without being specific to atc(6).
2017-02-26T20:12:30Z TruePika: umm, I'm going to be using a lot of assumptions based on the game itself, though
2017-02-26T20:13:02Z TruePika: it isn't practical ATM to even attempt to solve the general form of the problem
2017-02-26T20:13:32Z pjb: One of the first lesson of robotics, is to direly avoid coding specific parameters.  Control routines shall adapt to any hardware configuration.
2017-02-26T20:13:59Z pjb: Similarly, you will want to solve the air traffic control problem, it doesn't matter how the interface looks, or what are the particular of the system you hook to.
2017-02-26T20:14:07Z TruePika: this is a bot for a specific game, not a bot for general ATC
2017-02-26T20:14:53Z pjb: Yes. Then crack it open and add the hooks you need internally. It'll be easier to do that than to drive it from the terminal.
2017-02-26T20:15:01Z TruePika: (if I wanted to make a bot for general ATC, I'd hook into Flight Simulator via official APIs anyway)
2017-02-26T20:15:16Z TruePika: (and get it working there first)
2017-02-26T20:15:17Z pjb: This is what I suggested first with FlighGear.
2017-02-26T20:15:34Z pjb: Why would you want to work for Microsoft, without being paid?
2017-02-26T20:15:59Z TruePika: ...you _are_ aware there is an official, public API for interacting with FSX, right?
2017-02-26T20:16:13Z pjb: Yes, but FSX is a commercial product.
2017-02-26T20:16:23Z pjb: Flightgear is freedom software.
2017-02-26T20:17:50Z pjb: https://www.appannie.com/apps/ios/app/app-control/
2017-02-26T20:22:07Z TruePika: pjb: Just did some research, at this time, it isn't really worth it for me to switch away from FSX (especially considering system specs)
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2017-02-26T20:22:26Z TruePika: but FSX/Flightgear isn't really related to this at all
2017-02-26T20:24:01Z TruePika researches expect(1)
2017-02-26T20:24:51Z TruePika: and now libexpect(3) since that seems a better fit
2017-02-26T20:25:37Z TruePika: meh, but nothing in QL
2017-02-26T20:26:21Z pjb: Really, take the sources of atc, add a socket interface where you send the strips and where you receive he commands, and you'll be set in one hour.
2017-02-26T20:26:29Z pjb: Less if you copy-and-paste code.
2017-02-26T20:27:59Z pjb: The you can:  atc --listen-port 4009 # in a terminal, and  control-atc --atc-port 4009  # in another
2017-02-26T20:28:39Z TruePika: it doesn't help that I've written _very_ little network code, but I'm trying (for now, at least)
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2017-02-26T20:29:16Z pjb: TruePika: my point here is that it will be much easier to do that to passably successfully drive a program from its terminal interactive I/O with expect.
2017-02-26T20:30:01Z pjb: expect(1) is a last ressort tool, to be used only when no other solution can be implemented.
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2017-02-26T21:21:49Z himmAllRight17: is anyone here good with lambda calculus?
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2017-02-26T21:27:33Z Bike: sure?
2017-02-26T21:30:26Z himmAllRight17: lol, I'm working on something and I want to check with people that it makes sense
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2017-02-26T21:35:22Z edgar-rft: himmAllRight17: sorry, but I don't know if it makes sense that you're working on something
2017-02-26T21:37:34Z himmAllRight17: ?
2017-02-26T21:37:50Z himmAllRight17: It's a design really. Representing a quote in as a lambda expression
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2017-02-26T21:42:00Z aeth: Does #'= behave specially for floats or should floats (almost) never use #'=, like the advice in most languages? The hyperspec doesn't mention it on the = page, so I'm thinking it's the latter, but (1) most implementations might do something that's not in the spec and (2) it might be described in some totally different part of the spec.
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2017-02-26T21:46:50Z Bike: = is numerical equality, which excludes using epsilons or worrying about ulps or anything, basically
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2017-02-26T21:52:40Z |3b|: only thing special about floats and = is that (= 0.0 -0.0)
2017-02-26T21:53:36Z |3b|: and 'never use =' isn't really good advice, better "understand what = means for floats"
2017-02-26T21:54:26Z TruePika: pjb: got atc to wait for a connection now, and requires the DWORD 0x13371157 (Leet List) to proceed...so I'm making progress
2017-02-26T21:55:13Z TruePika: now I just need to decide on a command protocol
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2017-02-26T22:00:34Z pjb: TruePika: advice: keep it simple stupid, use ascii so you can test it with telnet.
2017-02-26T22:01:59Z TruePika: pjb: I'm testing with socat, which is even stupider than telnet (since there aren't automatic client responses)
2017-02-26T22:02:11Z pjb: Yes, better.
2017-02-26T22:02:28Z pjb: (telnet may issue some negociation bytes, if you change the settings).
2017-02-26T22:04:20Z TruePika: yeah, those bytes will cause an automatic fail at serverside handshaking
2017-02-26T22:05:17Z TruePika: trying to figure out the simplist way to replace stdin access; I can issue actual keystrokes through the socket that way
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2017-02-26T22:06:50Z aeth: It looks like in SBCL on x86-64 for a simple (= x y) with x, y declared as single-float, there is only one COMISS instruction in the disassembly, which http://ref.x86asm.net/coder64.html says is "Compare Scalar Ordered Single-FP Values and Set EFLAGS", which I think means SBCL can't be doing anything fancy there.
2017-02-26T22:07:40Z aeth: Interestingly, I think that also means, there's something fancy there for treating 0.0 and -0.0 the same unless COMISS does that.
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2017-02-26T22:09:48Z Bike: "The sign of zero is ignored for comparisons, so that –0.0 is equal to +0.0."
2017-02-26T22:12:23Z TruePika: meh, one thing I never really liked about C
2017-02-26T22:12:32Z TruePika: FILE* versus file descriptors
2017-02-26T22:14:29Z pjb: man 3 fileno ; man 3 fdopen
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2017-02-26T22:16:02Z TruePika: hm, TIL
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2017-02-26T22:46:11Z dim: > Error: Error #<SILENT-EXIT-ERROR #x302000E4982D> While executing: (:INTERNAL MAIN), in process listener(1).
2017-02-26T22:46:14Z dim: I don't much like that
2017-02-26T22:47:33Z TruePika: dim: what is that? CCL?
2017-02-26T22:48:29Z dim: ccl on a FreeBSD system I don't own
2017-02-26T22:48:46Z dim: trying to debug pgloader for a user, where it fails fast at startup time without any error message
2017-02-26T22:48:47Z dim: very strange
2017-02-26T22:48:50Z TruePika: I've heard that CCL uses the condition system to exit from REPL
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2017-02-26T23:02:06Z Xach: dim: congrats on tapoueh.org!!
2017-02-26T23:04:15Z shka: -1,033,941,573 processor cycles
2017-02-26T23:04:43Z shka just reached the next level
2017-02-26T23:05:00Z shka: my code runs so fast, processors cycles are negative
2017-02-26T23:05:15Z TruePika: #xC25F4DBB (assuming 32 bits)
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2017-02-26T23:05:38Z shka: sure
2017-02-26T23:05:44Z shka: but i find it rather funny :D
2017-02-26T23:05:59Z TruePika: shka: yeah, overflows can be rather hilarious
2017-02-26T23:06:30Z TruePika: my favorite is in Railroad Tycoon 3, where if you have over 2GB of video memory, the game interprets it as a negative amount and forces the lowest texture quality
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2017-02-26T23:06:54Z shka: oh, i'm always scared in those old games
2017-02-26T23:07:15Z shka: that programmer is using 16 bit signed integer somewhere
2017-02-26T23:07:17Z TruePika: I mean, I wrote a patch for that issue, but yeah
2017-02-26T23:07:29Z TruePika: 16 bits? No, 32-bits
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2017-02-26T23:07:58Z shka: TruePika: do you know about legendary civilization Ghandi overflow bug?
2017-02-26T23:08:23Z TruePika: shka: I've heard of it, ends up being extremely aggressive?
2017-02-26T23:08:23Z shka: it was so funny it is actually feature now
2017-02-26T23:08:30Z shka: yeah
2017-02-26T23:08:37Z TruePika only knows of it from TVTropes
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2017-02-26T23:08:45Z shka: it is actually very simple
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2017-02-26T23:09:27Z shka: it has lowest stat possible, but after changing to democracy it supposed to go lower
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2017-02-26T23:09:57Z shka: so out of the sudden it becomes hyper aggressive
2017-02-26T23:10:13Z TruePika: yup, reminds me of the Pomeg Glitch
2017-02-26T23:10:33Z shka: it actually become a feature in sequel games ;-)
2017-02-26T23:11:03Z TruePika: AscendedGlitch
2017-02-26T23:11:11Z TruePika: which explains why I've read about it
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2017-02-26T23:11:49Z shka: good night all!
2017-02-26T23:18:05Z smokeink: night
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2017-02-26T23:20:45Z alejandrozf: pjb:hi! how are you?
2017-02-26T23:20:51Z pjb: Fine.
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2017-02-26T23:21:24Z alejandrozf: pjb: i want to make you a question :) ?
2017-02-26T23:24:52Z TruePika: alejandrozf: (coerve pjb 'question) ?
2017-02-26T23:24:55Z TruePika: *coerce
2017-02-26T23:25:10Z alejandrozf: lol
2017-02-26T23:25:29Z alejandrozf: sorry for my poor english lol
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2017-02-27T00:01:26Z slark: hello, do you know a good framework based on common lisp for web developpement ?
2017-02-27T00:02:24Z pjb: in #lispweb they know better these things..
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2017-02-27T00:43:21Z rumbler31: dim: did you ever solve your deadlock?
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2017-02-27T00:43:48Z rumbler31: drmeister:  Do you consider drakma heavy from the user side, or from implementing support for it in clasp?
2017-02-27T00:45:04Z rumbler31: drmeister: I used drakma to consume multipart http and re-stitch the parts to the full data.  Is that what you're dealing with?
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2017-02-27T00:52:23Z Moosef: Hey, I am reading through Norvig's book. Anyone have any pointers?
2017-02-27T00:52:55Z Xach: Moosef: what kind of pointers?
2017-02-27T00:53:07Z Xach: Moosef: like, "take your time and understand everything"?
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2017-02-27T00:57:13Z trumps_weewee: why won't my custom tabulation function work?
2017-02-27T00:57:14Z trumps_weewee: http://pastebin.com/hnYibaY1
2017-02-27T00:57:17Z trumps_weewee: wtf, m8?
2017-02-27T00:57:36Z trumps_weewee: what's wrong with it? i know something's wrong with it, but i'm tired of trying to figure it out
2017-02-27T00:57:54Z Moosef: Xach: yeah maybe that question is just me being lazy. A better version/second attempt would be what from the book have you found most helpful?
2017-02-27T00:58:13Z sjl: what the heck is (. args)
2017-02-27T00:58:22Z Xach: Moosef: I liked the whole thing from front to back
2017-02-27T00:58:38Z sjl: oh it's scheme, wrong channel m8
2017-02-27T00:58:43Z Xach: sjl: that is a kind of syntax for &rest
2017-02-27T00:58:57Z Xach: sjl: you see it sometimes in loop destructuring
2017-02-27T00:59:11Z Xach: and maybe d-b? i can't remember.
2017-02-27T00:59:16Z sjl: Xach: if there's something before the ., sure
2017-02-27T00:59:27Z sjl: but (lambda (. args) ...) is just broken in CL
2017-02-27T00:59:36Z Xach: yeah
2017-02-27T01:03:25Z Moosef: Xach: Cool, I will come back when I have read enough to ask more specific questions. I am really enjoying it so far. Kind of stumbling my way through the General Problem Solver chapter at the moment. It is a humbling experience but I like it.
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2017-02-27T01:26:04Z BusFactor1: How does one get hunchentoot to automatically load an index.html in a directory that's under it's document root?
2017-02-27T01:26:38Z BusFactor1: I'm pointing it a directories under the root I specified and it doesn't find anything.
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2017-02-27T01:32:32Z Xach: I haven't read the manual in a long time, but I don't remember anything about index.html handling.
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2017-02-27T01:32:50Z Xach: If I had the same question, I'd read the manual again, and if that didn't show anything useful, I'd write a handler.
2017-02-27T01:35:03Z TruePika: wow, atc(6)'s code is worse than what I feel is some of my worst code
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2017-02-27T01:40:57Z Xach: i hate to respond to such off-topicness, but atc is also very, very, very, very old.
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2017-02-27T02:38:22Z TruePika: yay, I don't need to write anything else on the C side of this
2017-02-27T02:38:43Z TruePika: now I just need to read up on streams in the hyperspec
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2017-02-27T02:40:56Z TruePika: ...
2017-02-27T02:41:07Z TruePika: READ-BYTE is a blocking call, right?
2017-02-27T02:41:53Z Xach: TruePika: yes.
2017-02-27T02:42:07Z TruePika: how do you tell if there's a byte ready to be read?
2017-02-27T02:43:08Z TruePika: or wait, LISTEN
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2017-02-27T02:43:50Z TruePika was confused because there was e.g. READ-CHAR-NO-HANG but no READ-BYTE-NO-HANG
2017-02-27T02:44:28Z Xach: TruePika: I don't think there is any standard way on a binary stream.
2017-02-27T02:44:52Z TruePika: or wait, does LISTEN require a character stream?
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2017-02-27T02:45:35Z Xach: It seems to be specified for characters.
2017-02-27T02:45:40Z TruePika: meh
2017-02-27T02:46:01Z TruePika doesn't want to try to rewrite the C side of stuff to use fprintf or sprintf
2017-02-27T02:46:58Z TruePika checks SBCL's socket lib
2017-02-27T02:47:20Z Xach: I used epoll when I wanted to do things like that.
2017-02-27T02:47:42Z Xach: It helped that I did not care about not-sbcl/not-linux.
2017-02-27T02:47:50Z Xach: or even not-me
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2017-02-27T03:10:20Z TruePika: Looks like I might have figured out how to open the socket on the Lisp side of things :D
2017-02-27T03:10:33Z TruePika: (test-connection 1337) ==> "/home/chris/common-lisp/auto-atc/atc/default"
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2017-02-27T03:14:34Z TruePika: Is there a nice way to ensure that streams stored in an instance get closed when the instance is destroyed?
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2017-02-27T03:19:33Z pillton: Not portably.
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2017-02-27T03:19:44Z pillton: Are you doing non blocking IO?
2017-02-27T03:20:43Z pillton: I have sometimes used (with-all-my-streams (streams ...)  (run ... (make-instance 'foobar :stream (elt streams 0)))).
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2017-02-27T04:31:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-27T04:31:47Z drmeister: Hey folks - I'm trying to fix broken bootstrapping code and some of it mystifies me.
2017-02-27T04:31:52Z drmeister: I have this setf expression:
2017-02-27T04:32:08Z drmeister: (macroexpand '(setf (class-id class) name)) -> (LET* ((G11279 CLASS)) (MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND (G11280) NAME (FUNCALL #'(SETF CLASS-ID) G11280 G11279)))
2017-02-27T04:32:32Z drmeister: Now #'(setf class-id) -> #:UNBOUND
2017-02-27T04:32:35Z drmeister: How can that work?
2017-02-27T04:32:50Z drmeister: It does work
2017-02-27T04:33:29Z Bike: um... it shouldn't
2017-02-27T04:33:30Z drmeister: Am I forgetting something here?   SETF expanders
2017-02-27T04:33:42Z drmeister: So many things to remember.
2017-02-27T04:33:54Z drmeister: How do get a SETF expansion?
2017-02-27T04:34:14Z loke: drmeister: GET-SETF-EXPANSION, right?
2017-02-27T04:35:01Z Bike: well, that just tells you how setf will expand, that macroexpansion should do it
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2017-02-27T04:37:10Z drmeister: Bike: so (macroexpand '(setf (class-id class) name))  should give me the correct expansion for the SETF?
2017-02-27T04:37:26Z loke: drmeister: Yes.
2017-02-27T04:37:44Z drmeister: Because right after I print the macroexpansion I print #'(setf class-id) and it is #:UNBOUND
2017-02-27T04:37:53Z Bike: yeah. does (eval (macroexpand '(setf ...))) do it?
2017-02-27T04:38:04Z drmeister: and right after that the SETF is evaluated and it works.
2017-02-27T04:38:06Z Bike: maybe it's... actually bound, and the printer or something messes it up?
2017-02-27T04:38:29Z drmeister: Maybe
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2017-02-27T04:47:13Z drmeister: This is all happening within a (with-early-accessors (+the-standard-class+) ...) macro that sets up a macrolet that defines an accessor for class-id.
2017-02-27T04:47:59Z drmeister: (get-setf-expansion '(class-id class)) -> ((G11279) (CLASS) (G11280) (FUNCALL #'(SETF CLASS-ID) G11280 G11279) (CLASS-ID G11279))
2017-02-27T04:49:06Z drmeister: See, here's the thing...
2017-02-27T04:49:16Z drmeister: I'm trying to improve Clasp's compiler error and warning messages.
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2017-02-27T04:49:37Z drmeister: I've added some stuff to with-compilation-unit to track problems with function definitions.
2017-02-27T04:50:07Z drmeister: This has somehow broken Clasp's bootstrapping - it's a delicate thing to level up from a C++ interpreter to a simple compiler to a full Common Lisp with CLOS.
2017-02-27T04:50:21Z drmeister: Now I have two versions of Clasp running side-by side.
2017-02-27T04:50:37Z drmeister: One that has subtly broken bootstrapping and the other works as before.
2017-02-27T04:50:53Z drmeister: I hit a problem in bootstrapping classes
2017-02-27T04:51:20Z drmeister: I'm doing macroexpansion on the (setf (class-id class) name) that is causing the problem.
2017-02-27T04:51:36Z drmeister: The weird thing is that the working version?  It shouldn't work according to what I see.
2017-02-27T04:51:50Z drmeister: (get-setf-expansion '(class-id class)) -> ((G11279) (CLASS) (G11280) (FUNCALL #'(SETF CLASS-ID) G11280 G11279) (CLASS-ID G11279))
2017-02-27T04:51:59Z drmeister: #'(setf class-id) -> UNBOUND
2017-02-27T04:52:02Z drmeister: But it works.
2017-02-27T04:52:34Z Bike: but does it? what happens if you just evaluate the form?
2017-02-27T04:53:26Z drmeister: It's happening inside of a macrolet - can I just evaluate the form?   I can check that after evaluation if the value changed.
2017-02-27T04:54:41Z Bike: wait, wait, hang on, is class-id bound by the macrolet?
2017-02-27T04:54:50Z drmeister: Yes
2017-02-27T04:55:05Z BusFactor1: I can't believe it's taken me this long to try and find a replacement for python's SimpleHTTPServer in CL still with no success...
2017-02-27T04:55:43Z drmeister: Bike: It's inside of this:
2017-02-27T04:55:44Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/QsOeONfY/
2017-02-27T04:55:52Z BusFactor1: Wookie seems broken, hunchentoot doesn't handle index.html's without writing handlers, s-http-server just doesn't work, woo doesn't come with a file/directory handler...
2017-02-27T04:55:56Z Bike: ohhhhh ok
2017-02-27T04:56:06Z drmeister: Relevant entry: (CLASS-ID (OBJECT) (BACKQUOTE-APPEND (LIST 'INSTANCE-REF)
2017-02-27T04:56:15Z Bike: so macroexpand is expanding like that because it doesn't know what the hell class-id is
2017-02-27T04:56:27Z Bike: because that macro only exists in that lexical environment
2017-02-27T04:56:55Z drmeister: Oh - because it is expanding it in the global environment?
2017-02-27T04:56:59Z Bike: right.
2017-02-27T04:57:09Z drmeister: Because macroexpand doesn't know about the environment - sheesh.
2017-02-27T04:57:17Z beach: It does.
2017-02-27T04:57:27Z drmeister: It does?
2017-02-27T04:57:34Z beach: clhs macroexpand-1
2017-02-27T04:57:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mexp_.htm
2017-02-27T04:57:46Z beach: &optional env
2017-02-27T04:57:51Z drmeister: In the compiler it does - but how do I get the environment within the code?
2017-02-27T04:58:00Z Bike: writing that ,just a  moment
2017-02-27T04:58:09Z beach: clhs macrolet
2017-02-27T04:58:09Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_flet_.htm
2017-02-27T04:58:46Z beach: clhs 3.4.4
2017-02-27T04:58:46Z specbot: Macro Lambda Lists: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dd.htm
2017-02-27T04:58:55Z Bike: (macrolet ((class-id (object) (backquote-append ...)) (hack (form &environment e) `',(macroexpand-1 form e))) (hack (setf (class-id class) name)))
2017-02-27T04:58:58Z beach: See &environment
2017-02-27T04:59:12Z Bike: and on sbcl i get (let* ... (funcall #'(setf instance-ref) ...))
2017-02-27T05:02:08Z drmeister: I'm not following - I'd like to - thinking...
2017-02-27T05:02:33Z Bike: macrolet expands in the global environment by default, but you can pass it an environment object
2017-02-27T05:02:51Z drmeister: Do I wrap a macrolet around the macroexpand-1 to get the environment?
2017-02-27T05:03:06Z Bike: just do what i wrote, except with the class-id definition correct
2017-02-27T05:03:12Z Bike: it will do the expansion and all
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2017-02-27T05:04:08Z drmeister: So:   (macrolet ((class-id (object) (backquote-append (LIST 'INSTANCE-REF) (LIST OBJECT) (LIST 3) 'NIL)) (hack (form &environment e) `',(macroexpand-1 form e))) (hack (setf (class-id class) name)))
2017-02-27T05:04:14Z Bike: yup.
2017-02-27T05:06:20Z drmeister: And if I put this in the code inside the macrolet that sets up all of these accessors:
2017-02-27T05:06:20Z drmeister:       (debug-boot "  (macroexpand-1 '(class-id class)) -> ~a~%" (macrolet ((hack (form &environment e) `',(macroexpand-1 form e))) (hack (setf (class-id class) name))))
2017-02-27T05:06:35Z drmeister: (debug-boot ...) --> (format t ...)
2017-02-27T05:06:59Z Bike: i think that will work, yes.
2017-02-27T05:07:25Z drmeister: Because that's a neat way to get at the environment.
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2017-02-27T05:07:45Z drmeister: And yes - that works.
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2017-02-27T05:08:43Z drmeister:  (macroexpand-1 '(class-id class) ENV) -> (LET* ((G11093 CLASS)) (MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND (G11094) NAME (INSTANCE-SET G11093 3 G11094)))
2017-02-27T05:08:52Z Bike: that seems more reasonable.
2017-02-27T05:08:53Z drmeister: That's a neat trick.
2017-02-27T05:09:24Z Bike: yeah, macrolet interacts with setf in this way, though i dunno if i've ever used it
2017-02-27T05:10:58Z drmeister: I've never had a way of getting at the environment without hacking the compiler.
2017-02-27T05:12:01Z drmeister: Yeah - in the version that works I get the macroexpansion above.
2017-02-27T05:12:19Z drmeister: The broken one gives:
2017-02-27T05:12:20Z drmeister: (macroexpand-1 '(class-id class) ENV) -> (LET* ((G5142 CLASS)) (MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND (G5143) NAME (FUNCALL #'(SETF INSTANCE-REF) G5143 G5142 3)))
2017-02-27T05:12:31Z drmeister: Which is as it was before.
2017-02-27T05:13:41Z drmeister: Well, this makes a bit more sense.   Because in trying to fix the bootstrapping process I decided to try and cut out reloading setf.lsp again.
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2017-02-27T05:14:13Z drmeister: So if the behavior of SETF isn't completely defined - then this sort of thing might happen.
2017-02-27T05:14:33Z drmeister: What is it in SET that interacts with MACROLET?
2017-02-27T05:14:35Z drmeister: SETF
2017-02-27T05:14:59Z drmeister: There is this:
2017-02-27T05:14:59Z drmeister: (defsetf instance-ref instance-set)
2017-02-27T05:15:15Z beach: SETF calls GET-SETF-EXPANSION.
2017-02-27T05:15:30Z Bike quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2017-02-27T05:15:43Z drmeister: clhs get-setf-expansion
2017-02-27T05:15:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm
2017-02-27T05:16:02Z drmeister: That takes an environment as well - I'll try that trick again.
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2017-02-27T05:17:48Z drmeister: So:         (debug-boot "  (get-setf-expansion '(class-id class) ENV) -> ~a~%" (macrolet ((hack (form &environment e) `',(get-setf-expansion form e))) (hack '(class-id class))))
2017-02-27T05:17:56Z Bike: "Within the body of macrolet, global setf expander definitions of the names defined by the macrolet do not apply; rather, setf expands the macro form and recursively process the resulting form. "
2017-02-27T05:18:15Z Bike: is what i meant before i was so rudely ejected by some transistors
2017-02-27T05:20:01Z Bike: if you like, you can do (defmacro cmacroexpand-1 (form &environment e) `',(macroexpand-1 form e)) and skip the macrolet
2017-02-27T05:21:44Z drmeister: Right
2017-02-27T05:21:57Z drmeister: So there is no point at looking at the get-setf-expansion?
2017-02-27T05:22:21Z Bike: get-setf-expansion takes an environment argument the same way macroexpand does, and by default uses the global environment, same way as macroexpand
2017-02-27T05:22:27Z Bike: so you could do a similar thing if you want
2017-02-27T05:22:32Z Bike: i don't know what particularly you want to do
2017-02-27T05:22:58Z drmeister: I want to find out where and why the broken bootstrapping code is different from the working code
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2017-02-27T05:23:54Z drmeister: In particular, the broken code fails on:   (with-early-accessors (+the-standard-class+) (setf (class-id                  class) name))
2017-02-27T05:27:17Z drmeister: I'm going to back up - and go back to the original bootstrapping sequence for bclasp.
2017-02-27T05:27:38Z drmeister: That will move the problem to earlier - but I'll only be changing one thing then.
2017-02-27T05:28:49Z drmeister: Hmm, the problem seems to have disappeared.
2017-02-27T05:28:52Z drmeister: Argh
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2017-02-27T05:38:58Z drmeister: Nah - it's still there.
2017-02-27T05:39:09Z drmeister: The problem is (defstruct ..)
2017-02-27T05:39:31Z drmeister: Now I'm booting both versions exactly the same way.
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2017-02-27T05:40:08Z drmeister: aclasp defines a few structs with:     (defstruct (compiler-message (:type vector)) (prefix "Note") (format +note-format+) message source-pos-info top-level-form form)
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2017-02-27T05:41:26Z drmeister: I use :type vector because before clos is running I can't use defclass and defstruct with CLOS uses defclass.
2017-02-27T05:42:20Z Bike: reasonable.
2017-02-27T05:42:40Z Bike: this doesn't seem like it should involve anything like class-id, then, seeing as there's no class involved.
2017-02-27T05:42:56Z drmeister: bclasp is screwing up when it loads the defstruct definition again overtop of the existing one.
2017-02-27T05:43:17Z Bike: on top of? does it need to?
2017-02-27T05:43:33Z drmeister: No - sorry to hit you with whiplash - but I think the class-id issue was because I was avoiding loading this earlier code - that just caused another problem.
2017-02-27T05:43:40Z drmeister: Yeah,  how would I avoid that?
2017-02-27T05:44:05Z Bike: can you just like... #+aclasp, maybe?
2017-02-27T05:44:30Z drmeister: aclasp loads that defstruct into the interpreter and then compile-file's it and loads it again - that seems to work fine.
2017-02-27T05:45:24Z drmeister: bclasp loads aclasp (which defines that defstruct) and then compiles and loads the definition AGAIN.
2017-02-27T05:47:14Z drmeister: The last time it loads it, it screws up when it tries to determine...
2017-02-27T05:48:03Z drmeister: :b
2017-02-27T05:48:29Z Bike: :b?
2017-02-27T05:48:42Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/1aabaf2525d6c6a283d0596e33ca05fe
2017-02-27T05:49:13Z Bike: ...wow, what?
2017-02-27T05:49:21Z drmeister: https://gist.github.com/drmeister/67f83e834a20ebb8186b6d9c06cb8bc5
2017-02-27T05:49:35Z drmeister: This is the code that causes the problem.   The defstruct
2017-02-27T05:49:45Z drmeister: Yeah - what - exactly
2017-02-27T05:50:15Z Bike: okay, so it tries to do (subtypep vector (or list vector)), presumably to make sure the defstruct is valid
2017-02-27T05:50:19Z drmeister: This is a problem that has come up several times that I've tried to improve the bclasp compiler - the bootstrapping always fails on the first defstruct
2017-02-27T05:50:25Z drmeister: Yes
2017-02-27T05:50:34Z Bike: but to do that it needs to know what a cons is, and... apparently it doesn't
2017-02-27T05:50:36Z drmeister: Something is wrong with the type code
2017-02-27T05:51:21Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/dev/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/predlib.lsp#L1402
2017-02-27T05:51:36Z drmeister: That's the predlib.lsp code for canonical-type
2017-02-27T05:52:30Z drmeister: I'm about to put some code in to print debugging messages when I bind a dynamic variable to T
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2017-02-27T05:53:47Z Bike: well, here's a dumb idea: i think that defstruct doesn't take a subtype of vector, it only takes literally vector, list, or (vector some-element-type)
2017-02-27T05:54:00Z Bike: so you could take out the subtypep, maybe
2017-02-27T05:54:47Z drmeister: That's an interesting idea.
2017-02-27T05:55:40Z drmeister: That's here:
2017-02-27T05:55:40Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/dev/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/defstruct.lsp#L46
2017-02-27T05:56:31Z drmeister: So - change that to (member type '(cons vector)) ?
2017-02-27T05:56:43Z Bike: (vector foo) is also ok
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2017-02-27T05:56:58Z drmeister: LIST?
2017-02-27T05:57:05Z Bike: so more like (or (eq type 'list) (eq type 'vector) (and (consp type) (eq (car type) 'vector)))
2017-02-27T05:57:44Z drmeister: I see - this is a type name
2017-02-27T05:58:27Z drmeister:           (#+clasp(or (eq type 'list) (eq type 'vector) (and (consp type) (eq (car type) 'vector))) #+ecl(subtypep type '(OR LIST VECTOR))
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2017-02-27T06:02:27Z drmeister: There are a couple other subtypep's in defstruct
2017-02-27T06:03:01Z drmeister: It's possible that someone might use a specialized vector - isn't it?
2017-02-27T06:03:16Z drmeister: I could limit this to bootstrapping.
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2017-02-27T06:03:51Z Bike: the thing i said doesn't rule out using a specialized vector
2017-02-27T06:03:55Z Bike: but yes, it's possible
2017-02-27T06:04:02Z Bike: and maybe you should have subtypep working by then, i don't know
2017-02-27T06:04:29Z drmeister: What would you use for this:  (1) (subtypep type 'VECTOR)
2017-02-27T06:04:49Z drmeister: (2) (subtypep type '(VECTOR T))
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2017-02-27T06:06:03Z drmeister: (2) (and (consp type) (eq (car type) 'vector))   ?
2017-02-27T06:06:40Z drmeister: (1) (or (eq type 'vector) (and (consp type) (eq (car type) 'vector))) ?
2017-02-27T06:07:32Z Bike: yes on 1, and 2 would just be (equal type '(vector t))
2017-02-27T06:07:41Z Bike: i don't know whther these are supposed to be typexpanded or anything, though
2017-02-27T06:08:20Z drmeister: testing...
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2017-02-27T06:09:51Z drmeister: I wonder though if I shouldn't be looking at the root cause - why 'CONS isn't recognized properly
2017-02-27T06:10:59Z Bike: you probably should be.
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2017-02-27T08:45:42Z arduo: ciao
2017-02-27T08:46:03Z arduo: sorry wrong place
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2017-02-27T08:50:37Z antoszka: There's nothing wrong with 'ciao' here ;)
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2017-02-27T09:18:24Z mazoe: mornin
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2017-02-27T09:43:17Z beach: Hello mazoe.
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2017-02-27T10:01:05Z larsen: arduo: if you're looking for an italian Lisp channel, I'd like to resurrect #lisp-it (currently no traffic, but it is not completely desert)
2017-02-27T10:02:17Z arduo: ok I'll add it to my autoconn list so we'll meet there
2017-02-27T10:02:28Z larsen: sure
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2017-02-27T12:57:46Z phoe_: kadjsgfklasg
2017-02-27T12:57:52Z phoe_: this whole damn DEFSTRUCT PAGE is done for now
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2017-02-27T13:15:39Z phoe_: oh wow
2017-02-27T13:15:48Z phoe_: I have only three dictionaries left for CLUS
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2017-02-27T13:20:01Z beach: phoe_: Congratulations!
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2017-02-27T13:27:37Z phoe_: beach: thanks!
2017-02-27T13:33:36Z phoe_: Is :12 valid Lisp?
2017-02-27T13:33:45Z phoe_: In other words, :|12|
2017-02-27T13:34:32Z beach: Sure, it's a symbol.
2017-02-27T13:34:58Z beach: A symbol can have any name.
2017-02-27T13:35:23Z phoe_: Ayup, just confirming.
2017-02-27T13:35:33Z phoe_: Because I'm adding examples to SYMBOLP and KEYWORDP.
2017-02-27T13:35:40Z phoe_: Namely, for |12| and :|12|.
2017-02-27T13:36:01Z lieven: but :12 is unspecified by 2.3.1.1.3
2017-02-27T13:36:08Z lieven: so :|12| is ok but :12 is not
2017-02-27T13:36:25Z beach: Oh?
2017-02-27T13:36:30Z beach: clhs 2.3.1.1.3
2017-02-27T13:36:30Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 2.3.1.1.3.
2017-02-27T13:36:51Z lieven: clhs 2.3.1.1
2017-02-27T13:36:51Z specbot: Potential Numbers as Tokens: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_caa.htm
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2017-02-27T13:37:07Z jurov: (type-of ':12)
2017-02-27T13:37:12Z jurov: sbcl says KEYWORD
2017-02-27T13:37:35Z Xach: sbcl is not an oracle of correctness
2017-02-27T13:37:43Z beach: jurov: I think we want to know what the Common Lisp HyperSpec says.
2017-02-27T13:37:56Z Xach is reminded of brucio's investigation of the semantics of RANDOM
2017-02-27T13:38:20Z beach: lieven: The idea is that it is a symbol, not a number or a potential number.
2017-02-27T13:38:24Z jurov: ok ok :) just foind it interesting
2017-02-27T13:38:38Z Xach: beach: but see clause 3 on that page...
2017-02-27T13:38:51Z lieven: indeed.
2017-02-27T13:38:59Z lieven: source code is passing through read
2017-02-27T13:39:01Z Xach: lieven: good recall
2017-02-27T13:40:30Z beach: Right.  See it now.  Thanks.
2017-02-27T13:41:53Z lieven: CL syntax is a bit of a mess
2017-02-27T13:41:55Z beach: phoe_: Conclusion:  :12 is unspecified.
2017-02-27T13:42:11Z lieven: see also 256 is a number whereas \256 is a symbol
2017-02-27T13:42:20Z phoe_: Got it.
2017-02-27T13:42:29Z phoe_: beach: lieven: thanks.
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2017-02-27T13:44:37Z ogamita: lieven: not always.
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2017-02-27T13:44:55Z lieven: ogamita: ?
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2017-02-27T13:45:02Z beach: Yes, depends on the radix doesn't it.
2017-02-27T13:45:09Z ogamita: lieven: (setf *read-base* 2) (type-of '256) --> symbol
2017-02-27T13:45:12Z beach: ... whether 256 is a number.
2017-02-27T13:45:15Z lieven: yeah
2017-02-27T13:45:24Z ogamita: perhaps you meant 256. ?
2017-02-27T13:45:45Z lieven: assuming default read-base. And I don't mean 8
2017-02-27T13:46:01Z ogamita: Don't assume, dot your decimal integers!
2017-02-27T13:46:23Z lieven: last time I looked at this stuff I was working out how to recover from (setf *read-base* 26)
2017-02-27T13:46:43Z lieven: eh 36
2017-02-27T13:46:44Z beach: Heh!
2017-02-27T13:46:44Z ogamita: (
2017-02-27T13:46:59Z ogamita: (|SETF| |*READ-BASE*| 10.)
2017-02-27T13:47:57Z lieven: (multiple-value-setq (*read-base*) (+ 1 1 1 1 ...))
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2017-02-27T13:50:23Z Xach: I wonder if that's why 10. was invented
2017-02-27T13:50:34Z Xach: (probably not)
2017-02-27T13:51:04Z lieven: I would assume people didn't make that mistake so often
2017-02-27T13:51:40Z Xach: my real guess would be a leftover from the octal transition
2017-02-27T13:51:55Z beach: As I recall, Maclisp already had the dot.  And (again as I recall) the default base on Maclisp was 8.
2017-02-27T13:52:17Z beach: So it was probably a convenient way to get decimals without changing the read base.
2017-02-27T13:52:31Z beach: In fact, I don't even know whether the read base could be modified in Maclisp.
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2017-02-27T14:00:41Z phoe_: TIL about:
2017-02-27T14:00:45Z phoe_: clhs *gensym-counter*
2017-02-27T14:00:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_gensym.htm
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2017-02-27T14:44:04Z knobo: varjag: cl-jpeg has a todo item to "Add progressive JPEG support in decoder". But how about encoding it?
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2017-02-27T14:44:14Z knobo: Can it already be done?
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2017-02-27T15:04:43Z phoe_: beach: fun thinc
2017-02-27T15:04:45Z phoe_: thing
2017-02-27T15:04:46Z phoe_: clhs get
2017-02-27T15:04:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get.htm
2017-02-27T15:04:48Z phoe_: (defmacro age (person &optional (default ''thirty-something)) `(get ,person 'age ,default))
2017-02-27T15:05:15Z phoe_: the (default ''thirty-something) is the style I've seen
2017-02-27T15:05:30Z phoe_: it would be more like, single-quoted, and the expansion would be `(get ,person 'age ',default)
2017-02-27T15:06:01Z flip214: then it can't be evaluated...
2017-02-27T15:06:27Z phoe_: hah.
2017-02-27T15:06:39Z phoe_: but the double quote as default argument is really weird
2017-02-27T15:07:25Z phoe_: I need to provide a different default as (age *mary* ''forty-something)
2017-02-27T15:07:41Z phoe_: and the double quote is simply unnatural to me
2017-02-27T15:07:56Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2017-02-27T15:08:00Z phoe_: ...actually why is this not a function?
2017-02-27T15:08:07Z phoe_: if we want to evaluate both PERSON and DEFAULT
2017-02-27T15:08:39Z phoe_: this is the page of GET - and this DEFMACRO smells of some ancient ways of defining accessors
2017-02-27T15:10:24Z phoe_: ...oh, we'd need to defsetf then.
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2017-02-27T15:10:38Z flip214: phoe_: why would (age *mary* 'forty-something) be wrong?
2017-02-27T15:11:04Z phoe_: flip214: there's ''thirty-something in the argum--
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2017-02-27T15:11:06Z phoe_: oh wait, I got it
2017-02-27T15:11:11Z phoe_: flip214: it would be pretty valid.
2017-02-27T15:11:22Z phoe_: but if we want to evaluate all the args, why can't we use an ordinary function?
2017-02-27T15:11:25Z jurov: phoe_: i found this http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss055_w.htm
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2017-02-27T15:11:41Z phoe_: jurov: thanks.
2017-02-27T15:12:11Z jurov: which says about :number lol "Benefits:  Programmer expectations that any useful behavior can be portably relied upon in this pathological case should be soundly trounced."
2017-02-27T15:12:51Z flip214: phoe_: yeah, a function would be better here. it's just an example, I guess?!
2017-02-27T15:13:00Z phoe_: flip214: I want my examples to be sane.
2017-02-27T15:13:12Z ogamita: phoe_: double quotes in default values for macro arguments is not strange, because macro arguments are source code!
2017-02-27T15:13:31Z phoe_: ogamita: yes, I got it after some internal brainwork.
2017-02-27T15:13:47Z ogamita: phoe_: on the other hand, the fact that it seems unnatural to you  is a hint it should be written as a function, not as a macro. ;-)
2017-02-27T15:13:48Z flip214: phoe_: then just change that to a function.
2017-02-27T15:13:48Z phoe_: One quote is for evaluating the source code, second quote is for evaluating the function argument.
2017-02-27T15:14:03Z phoe_: flip214: looks like SETF will break this way.
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2017-02-27T15:14:21Z flip214: phoe_: as you said, a SETF expansion would then be needed.
2017-02-27T15:14:27Z phoe_: so I need a clever defsetf or a define-setf-expander.
2017-02-27T15:14:30Z phoe_: yes.
2017-02-27T15:14:39Z flip214: but having that as the only reason for a macro instead of a function? awww.
2017-02-27T15:14:49Z ogamita: (defmacro age (person &optional (default ''thirty-something)) `(get ,person 'age ,default)) (macroexpand-1 ' (age p (setf last-default-used 42))) #| --> (get p 'age (setf last-default-used 42)) ; t |#
2017-02-27T15:15:23Z phoe_: flip214: yes, this macro sucks
2017-02-27T15:15:34Z phoe_: ogamita: it's some beautiful lisp that I don't understand
2017-02-27T15:15:39Z phoe_: I mean, I understand what
2017-02-27T15:15:43Z phoe_: I don't get why
2017-02-27T15:16:29Z flip214: ogamita: with the macro as it is, DEFAULT will get evaluated always. just like with the function.
2017-02-27T15:16:36Z flip214: or did you want to make a different point?
2017-02-27T15:17:01Z ogamita: Reify the person!   (defun make-person () (cons 'person  nil))   (defun age (p &optional (default 'thirty-something)) (get (cdr p) 'age default))     (defun (setf age) (new-age p &optional  default) (declare (ignore default)) (setf (get (cdr p) 'age) new-age))
2017-02-27T15:17:59Z ogamita: Damned I confused get and getf.
2017-02-27T15:18:08Z ogamita: s/get/getf/g in what I wrote.
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2017-02-27T15:19:16Z ogamita: flip214: with (setf getf) can change a nil into a list.  (defun (setf …) …) cannot do that, you need a define-setf-expander.
2017-02-27T15:20:05Z ogamita: phoe_: : on the other hand, with get, we have already an object, since get works on symbols, so there's no point in using the macro, (defun (setf age) (new-age p &optional d) (declare (ignore d)) (setf (get p 'age) new-age)) works nicely.
2017-02-27T15:20:05Z phoe_: but SETF GET seems to expand into something sane.
2017-02-27T15:20:40Z phoe_: ogamita: yes, that was my point - why the macro?
2017-02-27T15:21:18Z ogamita: To spare the double definition defun and defun setf…
2017-02-27T15:21:38Z phoe_: I'd rather be clear than clever.
2017-02-27T15:21:44Z phoe_: *Especially* in the examples.
2017-02-27T15:21:46Z ogamita: Since macros are allowed, they tend to use them for setf, since a single form would define the while accessor.
2017-02-27T15:22:09Z ogamita: s/while/whole/
2017-02-27T15:23:10Z flip214: I'm not sure about the effects on code size (because of inlining vs. being to optimize things away)...
2017-02-27T15:23:44Z phoe_: oh come on now
2017-02-27T15:23:48Z phoe_: this is not a tutorial on optimization
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2017-02-27T15:23:57Z phoe_: this is a tutorial on how to use GET
2017-02-27T15:24:21Z phoe_: I want non-GET to be simple and as legible as they can.
2017-02-27T15:24:24Z flip214: phoe_: I'm trying to form an opinion whether using such macros in examples like this is a good idea
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2017-02-27T15:24:37Z flip214: and so I'm trying to find the implications
2017-02-27T15:24:55Z flip214: when things like these are being used in a real system
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2017-02-27T15:47:47Z shka_: hi folks
2017-02-27T15:48:24Z arrsim quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-27T15:50:19Z phoe_: hey
2017-02-27T15:50:37Z phoe_: clhs boundp
2017-02-27T15:50:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm
2017-02-27T15:50:45Z phoe_: I'll need some help killing the toplevel setq here.
2017-02-27T15:51:22Z shka_: how time macro is able to present info on consed bytes?
2017-02-27T15:51:29Z phoe_: shka_: implementation-dependent
2017-02-27T15:51:33Z shka_: in sbcl
2017-02-27T15:51:36Z phoe_: #sbcl
2017-02-27T15:51:38Z shka_: to be precise
2017-02-27T15:51:40Z phoe_: :3
2017-02-27T15:51:58Z shka_: you don't take into consideration that somebody may know here?
2017-02-27T15:52:14Z shka_: i'm trying to figure out what exactly is consing memory in my function
2017-02-27T15:52:36Z shka_: it is kinda funny because i need to run in loop to see consing
2017-02-27T15:52:51Z dlowe: shka_: sbcl has a nice profiler that shows consing breakdowns
2017-02-27T15:52:57Z phoe_: shka_: https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/7644df292389a51a653dff68cc82d1cc121fd9b6/src/code/time.lisp
2017-02-27T15:52:58Z shka_: i know
2017-02-27T15:53:14Z shka_: so i figured my exact function
2017-02-27T15:53:20Z shka_: but not exact code part
2017-02-27T15:53:30Z shka_: i have vector that has dynamic-extent
2017-02-27T15:53:45Z shka_: (why it is even called dynamic-extent btw)
2017-02-27T15:53:55Z shka_: and it is typed for lists
2017-02-27T15:54:00Z shka_: i'm adding lists into it
2017-02-27T15:54:19Z shka_: i'm not sure if it is consing lists or something else
2017-02-27T15:54:33Z shka_: my best guess are lists indeed
2017-02-27T15:55:00Z shka_: but i don't know implementation details so i really can't tell
2017-02-27T15:55:22Z shka_: profiling calls to list and list* does not help
2017-02-27T15:57:48Z shka_: so i'm kinda lost here
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2017-02-27T16:01:05Z phoe_: shka_: profiling?
2017-02-27T16:01:08Z phoe_: you mean tracing?
2017-02-27T16:01:24Z phoe_: shka_: can you show us the code?
2017-02-27T16:01:38Z shka_: i mean sb-profile:profile
2017-02-27T16:01:40Z shka_: you know
2017-02-27T16:01:46Z shka_: the link you pasted
2017-02-27T16:01:56Z shka_: it is all in there
2017-02-27T16:02:18Z shka_: i can't paste code know, i will try to eliminate list* calls and see what happens
2017-02-27T16:03:14Z phoe_: uh wait, AFAIK list* always conses except for trivial cases
2017-02-27T16:04:03Z shka_: yup
2017-02-27T16:04:07Z shka_: that was the one
2017-02-27T16:04:42Z shka_: well, i was under impression that (vector list) will hold cons cells inlined
2017-02-27T16:04:46Z shka_: but that's not the case
2017-02-27T16:04:58Z shka_: it probably can't be
2017-02-27T16:06:24Z shka_: not any expert here, just trying my best to write efficient program
2017-02-27T16:06:28Z shka_: :-)
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2017-02-27T16:14:34Z shka_: well, now it runs about 10 times faster
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2017-02-27T16:15:59Z phoe_: it can't hold cons cells inlined because
2017-02-27T16:16:27Z phoe_: I guess if you want inline cells, just declare a (vector t) twice as long
2017-02-27T16:16:31Z phoe_: except this smells of C
2017-02-27T16:16:43Z shka_: not even needed
2017-02-27T16:16:55Z shka_: i just leted two arrays
2017-02-27T16:17:09Z shka_: i was using list* to store just two elements
2017-02-27T16:17:33Z phoe_: "just two elements" is one cons cell
2017-02-27T16:17:36Z shka_: so my fix was to just add extra element
2017-02-27T16:17:38Z shka_: yup
2017-02-27T16:17:57Z shka_: anyway, now it is cons free and reasonable fast
2017-02-27T16:18:38Z shka_: i wanted to get around 1/10 lookup performance of built in hash-table of sbcl, i got it, i am happy
2017-02-27T16:20:05Z shka_: at the very least i could do that
2017-02-27T16:20:05Z phoe_ pushes chapter Symbols to CLUS
2017-02-27T16:20:34Z shka_: i am glad that lisp allows you to optimize memory allocation to a some extent
2017-02-27T16:20:54Z shka_: sometimes it can make huge difference
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2017-02-27T16:37:41Z d4ryus: Hi, is there a way to check how many bytes i can read off a stream (iam using usocket socket-streams)? because read-sequence blocks if my buffer size is bigger than the amount of available bytes.
2017-02-27T16:39:02Z d4ryus: I guess i could loop with LISTEN and read off one byte each time, but that sounds horrible performance wise :D
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2017-02-27T16:50:04Z ym: Trying to build last sbcl from git on OpenBSD I get "./src/runtime/sbcl[1]: ELF: not found" and "./src/runtime/sbcl[2]: syntax error: `(' unexpected" messages. Google says nothing. Am I doing something wrong?
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2017-02-27T16:54:29Z Fare: ym: ask on #sbcl and/or on sbcl-devel
2017-02-27T16:54:43Z Fare: did you try the last known working sbcl for openbsd?
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2017-02-27T16:56:03Z ym: Yep, it works.
2017-02-27T16:57:42Z phoe_: ugh
2017-02-27T16:57:50Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT)
2017-02-27T16:57:55Z phoe_: just one more page
2017-02-27T16:57:57Z phoe_: clhs require
2017-02-27T16:57:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_provid.htm
2017-02-27T16:58:17Z phoe_: and I'm done with the sysconst chapter
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2017-02-27T17:10:38Z josh5ton1 is now known as josh5tone
2017-02-27T17:12:45Z clintm: shka_: is the code you're referring to re. hash-table available somewhere?  Sounds like I could learn a lot from it.
2017-02-27T17:13:24Z szmer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2017-02-27T17:13:54Z shka_: i don't have repository for it, but i can upload it pastebin
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2017-02-27T17:16:39Z shka_: please, don't mind poor overall quality
2017-02-27T17:16:47Z shka_: i'm still working on this code
2017-02-27T17:16:56Z shka_: some things are clearly broken
2017-02-27T17:16:59Z shka_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/340118
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2017-02-27T17:17:32Z clintm: Thank you!
2017-02-27T17:17:53Z shka_: warning: code is ugly
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2017-02-27T17:18:10Z shka_: like, seriously ugly ;-)
2017-02-27T17:19:51Z phoe_: aah
2017-02-27T17:19:56Z phoe_ pushes System Construction to CLUS
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2017-02-27T17:23:06Z phoe_: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=cl:macros:defstruct
2017-02-27T17:23:36Z phoe_: aside from some minor styling issues and the obvious fact that this page is a moloch, I'm relatively satisfied with how this page looks
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2017-02-27T17:26:56Z beach: shka_: Why do you write ugly code?
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2017-02-27T17:27:24Z shka_: it is side product of experimenting
2017-02-27T17:28:55Z shka_: besides it is mostly fine most of the time
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2017-02-27T17:29:54Z shka_: insert-into-hash is probably the most awful piece of code here
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2017-02-27T17:30:12Z shka_: but i will refactor it, eventually
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2017-02-27T17:33:47Z adlai: shka_: theoretically '(simple-array cons (*)) could be unboxed, you could find out via upgraded-array-element-type
2017-02-27T17:34:02Z adlai: that would definitely be a pleasant surprise :D
2017-02-27T17:34:16Z shka_: hm, nice one!
2017-02-27T17:35:04Z adlai once got very mad that (upgraded-complex-part-type 'rational) -> real
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2017-02-27T17:49:55Z jasom: It doesn't appear to be possible to declare an unbound special with documentation, is that correct?
2017-02-27T17:50:02Z jasom: I suppose I can do it in two steps (defvar, followed by either setting the documentation or makunbound)
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2017-02-27T18:06:53Z phoe_: jasom: looks so, yes
2017-02-27T18:06:58Z phoe_: clhs defvar
2017-02-27T18:06:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm
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2017-02-27T18:25:25Z phoe_: Error in spec detected:
2017-02-27T18:25:35Z phoe_: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_fn.htm
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2017-02-27T18:25:47Z phoe_: "Consider the following two declarations of ftype: "
2017-02-27T18:26:09Z phoe_: (and arg0-type1 arg0-type2) should be (and arg0-type1 arg0-type2 ...) I think
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2017-02-27T18:27:12Z Bike: no, there's only two ftypes, so neither of them should have ellipses.
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2017-02-27T18:27:58Z phoe_: Got it. Correct.
2017-02-27T18:28:03Z phoe_: Also, below:
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2017-02-27T18:28:07Z phoe_: "If two (or more) type declarations are in effect for a variable..."
2017-02-27T18:28:14Z phoe_: A variable? Not a function?
2017-02-27T18:28:23Z phoe_: Oh wait, no.
2017-02-27T18:28:26Z |3b|: variable containing a function?
2017-02-27T18:28:29Z phoe_: when it's TYPE and not FTYPE.
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2017-02-27T18:31:42Z phoe_: Hahaha! I know why I missed it.
2017-02-27T18:31:48Z phoe_: "If two (or more) type declarations are in effect for a variable..."
2017-02-27T18:31:51Z phoe_: Should be:
2017-02-27T18:31:56Z phoe_: "If two (or more) *TYPE* declarations are in effect for a variable..."
2017-02-27T18:32:05Z phoe_: where TYPE is a hyperlink to declaration TYPE.
2017-02-27T18:32:15Z phoe_: What do you think?
2017-02-27T18:32:32Z d4ryus: yay, there is (usocket:socket-option socket :receive-timeout), read-sequence will throw a error when the specified timeout is reached, perfekt
2017-02-27T18:33:40Z phoe_: d4ryus: what error?
2017-02-27T18:34:03Z phoe_: clhs read-sequence
2017-02-27T18:34:03Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm
2017-02-27T18:34:51Z d4ryus: phoe_: I/O timeout while doing input on #<SB-SYS:FD-STREAM....
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2017-02-27T18:35:13Z d4ryus: phoe_: no, its meant to do that, iam reading from usocket socket-streams.
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2017-02-27T18:35:54Z phoe_: d4ryus: got it.
2017-02-27T18:36:03Z d4ryus: and it solves my problem :)
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2017-02-27T18:53:07Z drmeister: I'd like to run a webserver in Clasp Common Lisp that responds to http requests as well as websocket connections - what do people recommend?
2017-02-27T18:55:27Z drmeister: Huchentoot?
2017-02-27T18:55:33Z clintm: I've had reasonably good luck with hunchentoot and hunchensocket.
2017-02-27T18:55:50Z drmeister: huchensocket?  Investigating...
2017-02-27T18:56:52Z drmeister: The google doesn't know about that.
2017-02-27T18:57:07Z clintm: One sec, let me find a link.
2017-02-27T18:57:41Z drmeister: Does it do websockets?
2017-02-27T18:57:48Z clintm: It knows about "hunchensocket" though. (add the "n") :)
2017-02-27T18:57:54Z drmeister just learned about websockets - like three hours ago.
2017-02-27T18:58:01Z clintm: https://github.com/joaotavora/hunchensocket
2017-02-27T18:58:18Z drmeister: Yes - that's it.
2017-02-27T18:59:36Z clintm: I would have opted for fukamachi's websocket-driver-* packages, but there's missing support for the async lib in FreeBSD.  It would seem that they are linux specific, though I didn't dig deeper since I'd already used hunchensocket a while back.
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2017-02-27T19:04:46Z phoe_: aah
2017-02-27T19:04:55Z phoe_: I'm going to finish CLUS dictionaries tomorrow.
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2017-02-27T19:06:56Z phoe_: this is something I liiiiiike doing.
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2017-02-27T19:08:10Z myrkraverk: Does Lisp have any kind of coding style genealogy? I just learned that my preferred fortran comment syntax is for compatibility with fortran66.
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2017-02-27T19:11:23Z myrkraverk: Has the usual coding style (as laid down be emacs) remained the same from the 50s/60s?  Or has it changed?
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2017-02-27T19:11:34Z myrkraverk: I haven't read any of that old lisp code (yet) so I don't know.
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2017-02-27T19:14:04Z Fare: myrkraverk, not sure about "genealogy" here
2017-02-27T19:14:20Z Fare: I once wrote Google's Common Lisp Style Guide.
2017-02-27T19:14:49Z Fare: (or rather, pieced it together from parts originally written by others.)
2017-02-27T19:14:59Z Fare: (I don't control the document anymore.)
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2017-02-27T19:15:41Z Fare: myrkraverk, there are documents on the history of Lisp that explain how much the style has changed from the 1950s to the 1990s.
2017-02-27T19:15:45Z Bike: well, the genealogy would be what others you got it from, and who they got it from
2017-02-27T19:16:06Z myrkraverk: *nod*
2017-02-27T19:16:08Z Fare: Lisp has lived long enough to be influenced by everything.
2017-02-27T19:16:25Z myrkraverk: And influenced almost everything back.
2017-02-27T19:16:27Z Fare: and if you view "Lisp" more broadly than CL, even more so.
2017-02-27T19:16:53Z myrkraverk: I'm fluent in elisp and cl; by extension, maybe maclisp too (which is what elisp emulated, I've read).
2017-02-27T19:17:52Z myrkraverk: Fare: do you have a link or a title of any such document?
2017-02-27T19:20:27Z jasom: drmeister: there is a websocket extension for clasp, let me check which servers it supports
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2017-02-27T19:21:59Z jasom: drmeister: websocket-driver works with hunchentoot wookie and woo, so hunchentoot should be fine to go with for now.  I plan on adding mongrel2 support at some point, but I think I'm the only one using mongrel2 with lisp at all.
2017-02-27T19:22:24Z myrkraverk: Mabye I'll start with http://www.paulgraham.com/lisphistory.html
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2017-02-27T19:24:31Z Fare: myrkraverk, google history of lisp programming language
2017-02-27T19:24:42Z myrkraverk: ok.
2017-02-27T19:25:21Z Fare: many documents there
2017-02-27T19:25:54Z jasom: while we're talking history, anybody know the motivation for moving from the small-talk like SEND for objects to CLOS?  I've seen a lot of non-lispers mention in passing that GFs are less ergonomic than small-talk style OO, which appears to mostly be due to namespacing when I've pressed them on it.  Since at one point lisp's OO was more small-talk like than it is now, I'm curious if there are any artifacts of
2017-02-27T19:25:56Z jasom: the decision making process I can point them to.
2017-02-27T19:26:48Z Fare: jasom: multimethods. Who's the receiver?
2017-02-27T19:27:57Z jasom: Fare: To clarify, I have lots of reasons for liking CLOS, and I think the tradeoff is worth it; I'm wondering if there was any debate at the time about adopting multimethods that we have records of.
2017-02-27T19:28:11Z Fare: seen the other way, the method is the receiver, instead of "the" object.
2017-02-27T19:29:04Z Fare: there was a lot of debate. But PARC style OOP was more than just multimethods. It was the rich universe of what became CLOS and its MOP.
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2017-02-27T19:29:24Z Fare: plus applications such as what became AOP.
2017-02-27T19:29:28Z jasom: In practice you see GFs named like tree-pick-fruit rather than pick-fruit to prevent symbol-name collisions, which doesn't happen with send
2017-02-27T19:30:39Z Fare: jasom: I've seen also pick-fruit for GF name, relying on packages to prevent collision.
2017-02-27T19:30:58Z Fare: I tried that latter style in Lisp Interface Library.
2017-02-27T19:31:38Z jasom: this would also be less problematic with package-local nicknames, so you could use packages with short prefix names if/when you get name collisions.
2017-02-27T19:32:19Z Fare: I also implemented an asdf-package-renaming extension. But it was still cumbersome to use.
2017-02-27T19:33:58Z jasom: the one-package-per-file style helps somewhat as you have fewer imports per package, but becomes much worse when you need to use fully qualified symbol names
2017-02-27T19:34:36Z Fare: hence the :use-reexport clause of uiop:define-package
2017-02-27T19:35:50Z jasom: right
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2017-02-27T19:36:09Z Fare: or :mix-reexport
2017-02-27T19:36:49Z jasom: Is there any good rule for what the scope is of uiop?  It's clearly more than the bare-minimum needed for ASDF at this point, but it also doesn't want to become a full-fledged OS & implementation abstraction layer.\
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2017-02-27T19:42:08Z drmeister: Can I run Hunchentoot without multiprocessing?  Without Bordeaux Threads?
2017-02-27T19:43:24Z shka_: drmeister: i don't think so
2017-02-27T19:43:41Z shka_: drmeister: it wants to use another thread for each connection
2017-02-27T19:43:46Z akkad: yeah it will hang
2017-02-27T19:44:02Z shka_: as for small talk
2017-02-27T19:44:14Z shka_: small talk is actually quite close to CLOS
2017-02-27T19:44:22Z raydeejay: *cough*
2017-02-27T19:44:27Z raydeejay: where did that space come from...
2017-02-27T19:45:32Z shka_: from the eternal divide of sane and batshit insane OO
2017-02-27T19:45:37Z shka_: ;-)
2017-02-27T19:46:51Z shka_: besides i'm under impression that SmallTalk was inspired by Lisp
2017-02-27T19:47:03Z raydeejay: it was written on top of lisp, at first
2017-02-27T19:47:05Z raydeejay: so yeah
2017-02-27T19:47:15Z shka_: didn't knew that
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2017-02-27T19:52:20Z jasom: shka_: Lisp's OO system came from SmallTalk though
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2017-02-27T19:54:39Z varjag: not really
2017-02-27T19:54:57Z varjag: the original Flavors was message passing
2017-02-27T19:55:07Z varjag: new flavors was generic functions based
2017-02-27T19:55:09Z Fare: jasom: 1- if ASDF needs it but it's general purpose it goes in UIOP.
2017-02-27T19:55:09Z varjag: so is closs
2017-02-27T19:55:16Z varjag: -s
2017-02-27T19:55:46Z Fare: 2- otherwise, it has to be small and necessary to complete an API provided in 1.
2017-02-27T19:56:37Z Fare: jasom: what do you see there that isn't used by ASDF?
2017-02-27T19:57:26Z Fare: I notably added a couple function just so I could say that UIOP supersedes CL-FAD.
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2017-02-27T20:14:49Z drmeister: How does multiprocessing work in Common Lisp?    How is altering a global variable like (incf *foo*) handled?  Is there a lock placed around the symbol-value of *foo* during the read/inc/write?
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2017-02-27T20:16:24Z sirkmatija_: I am trying to ql:quickload :tcod, but I am getting an error: (CFFI::FL-ERROR "Unable to load foreign library (~A).~%  ~A" LIBTCOD "Error opening shared object \"libtcod.so\": libtcod.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory."). I have libtcod.so in /usr/local/lib, which I have pushed (together with one more directory which includes required file) to cffi:*foreign-library-directories*. Any ideas?
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2017-02-27T20:17:29Z clintm: sirkmatija_: is it possibly a 32/64bit mismatch between your lisp and the library?
2017-02-27T20:17:31Z sirkmatija_: also I am using fedora linux and sbcl, both updated quite recently
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2017-02-27T20:18:57Z varjag: drmeister: the behaviour is similar to posix threads
2017-02-27T20:19:07Z varjag: which are typically what is underneath
2017-02-27T20:19:16Z varjag: unless you run some green threads implementation
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2017-02-27T20:20:22Z sirkmatija_: clintm: could be, let me check
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2017-02-27T20:22:52Z phoe: Did anyone get any mail from ELS detailing whether their submission was accepted or declined?
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2017-02-27T20:22:59Z phoe: s/ELS/ELS2017/
2017-02-27T20:23:07Z Bike: not yet.
2017-02-27T20:24:14Z phoe: Today is the day - this is why I ask.
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2017-02-27T20:34:59Z jasom: Fare: that makes sense; I was thinking of the recent run-program improvements, btw.
2017-02-27T20:35:37Z jasom: varjag: I thought flavors was post smalltalk?
2017-02-27T20:35:49Z sirkmatija_: clintm: yeah, that was the problem, thank you
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2017-02-27T20:52:09Z varjag: jasom: flavors uses message passing model just as smalltalk
2017-02-27T20:52:13Z varjag: new flavors doesn't
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2017-02-27T20:57:16Z White_Flame: drmeister: the only difference between posix threads and CL "processes" in practice is that bindings of special variables are thread-local.  On a threaded system, access often first checks TLS to see if there's a binding, and if not then it hits the global symbol-value.  Data structures like built-in hash tables often aren't automatically atomically accessed, though there tend to be some options for that in some implementations
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2017-02-27T20:58:18Z White_Flame: so basically it's all just trample town with raw multiprocessing, and libraries should be used for cleaner message passing, pure functional data structures, or whatever
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2017-02-27T21:00:23Z White_Flame: oh, threading also obviously affects memory allocation and GC.  Many have a slab of memory to allocate from per-thread, bumping a pointer, and only grabbing a lock to get more when that slab is empty.  The easiest to implement GCs stop all threads (hopefully at a safepoint), waits for threads to stop, and then does whatever GC stuff it needs to with full control
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2017-02-27T21:06:16Z phoe: (defun foo (string) (let ((end (length string))) (declare (dynamic-extent end)) (loop for i below end do (print "x")) 3))
2017-02-27T21:06:29Z phoe: SBCL tells me that it cannot stack-allocate (LENGTH STRING). Why?
2017-02-27T21:06:59Z phoe: Because it can be a bignum and therefore its size is unknown?
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2017-02-27T21:07:51Z Bike: i don't think it can actually be a bignum
2017-02-27T21:08:09Z Bike: more likely sbcl just only knows how to dx results of certain calls, like make-array and such
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2017-02-27T21:08:52Z dlowe: yeah, array indices must be non-negative fixnums
2017-02-27T21:09:20Z phoe: dlowe: is this in the CLHS somewhere?
2017-02-27T21:09:28Z Bike: clhs array-dimension-limit
2017-02-27T21:09:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_ar_dim.htm
2017-02-27T21:09:30Z Bike: or something
2017-02-27T21:09:58Z Bike: how exactly do you get sbcl to warn you about that
2017-02-27T21:10:40Z dlowe: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/15_aaa.htm
2017-02-27T21:11:17Z phoe: Bike: I attempt to compile this line
2017-02-27T21:11:24Z phoe: perhaps with speed 3 safety 1 debug 1
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2017-02-27T21:11:41Z Bike: i can't make it do it
2017-02-27T21:11:51Z Bike: wait, maybe notes is onl;y in compile file
2017-02-27T21:12:22Z Bike: yeah there we go.
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2017-02-27T21:14:56Z TruePika: phoe: SBCL doesn't appear to know (via your snippet) that STRING is a STRING; just any type of SEQUENCE
2017-02-27T21:15:07Z Bike: what does that matter
2017-02-27T21:15:21Z TruePika: for the BIGNUM "possibility"
2017-02-27T21:15:37Z TruePika: a LIST's length can easily exceed the maximum array size
2017-02-27T21:16:00Z Bike: same warning if the type is declared
2017-02-27T21:16:29Z TruePika can't check since VM isn't allowing login for some reason...
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2017-02-27T21:22:11Z TruePika: speed 3 safety 3 debug 3, with (the fixnum (length string)) I'm also getting the unable to stack alloc
2017-02-27T21:22:44Z TruePika: fixnum has a static size, right?
2017-02-27T21:23:25Z Bike: yes
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2017-02-27T21:23:44Z Bike: it probably does fixnums specially anyway, i mean, that's what registers are for
2017-02-27T21:25:44Z TruePika: hm, isn't there a way to get the ftype?
2017-02-27T21:26:30Z Bike: what, of length?
2017-02-27T21:26:41Z TruePika: yeah
2017-02-27T21:26:45Z Bike: describe
2017-02-27T21:27:09Z TruePika would have thought there was a lower-level function
2017-02-27T21:27:38Z Bike: nothing standard
2017-02-27T21:27:52Z TruePika: hm
2017-02-27T21:28:51Z TruePika: On x86-64, declared ftype is (FUNCTION (SEQUENCE) (VALUES (MOD #.(- most-positive-fixnum 2)) &OPTIONAL))
2017-02-27T21:29:08Z TruePika: so it would return a fixnum in any case anyway
2017-02-27T21:29:32Z TruePika: derived type is (FUNCTION (T) *) though
2017-02-27T21:29:51Z Bike: it's not like a 4 quintillion element list is actually possible anyway
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2017-02-27T21:34:56Z TruePika tries to figure out how to use sb-bsd-sockets
2017-02-27T21:35:59Z TruePika: I'm finding the SBCL manual to be slightly lacking
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2017-02-27T21:36:15Z phoe: anyway, I was asking trying to optimize https://github.com/phoe/string-pokemonize
2017-02-27T21:36:19Z phoe: but I think it's good enough for now
2017-02-27T21:36:26Z TruePika: e.g. the meaning of :ELEMENT-TYPE on SOCKET-RECEIVE
2017-02-27T21:36:44Z Bike: yes, i can see why performance would be critical here
2017-02-27T21:37:11Z TruePika: phoe: ... ... ...
2017-02-27T21:37:20Z Bike: looks more like mr saturn than pokes, imo
2017-02-27T21:37:25Z TruePika: ^
2017-02-27T21:37:30Z TruePika would know
2017-02-27T21:37:32Z phoe: me too, but that's how we call it in Poland
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2017-02-27T21:38:08Z TruePika coins a new term: rollercoaster-case
2017-02-27T21:38:27Z TruePika: or rather RoLlErCoAsTeR-CaSe
2017-02-27T21:38:58Z jasom think it looks better with every-other letter case-inverted rather than every-other character
2017-02-27T21:39:29Z jasom: RoLlErCoAsTeR-cAsE
2017-02-27T21:39:33Z phoe: ^
2017-02-27T21:39:36Z Fare: jasom: well, launch-program support was there in hiding, and epipping revealed it and made it useful to everyone --- also squashing many corner case bugs and fixing the windows port on many implementations.
2017-02-27T21:39:37Z phoe: that's how I implement it, too
2017-02-27T21:40:07Z TruePika: okay yeah, SOCKET-SEND and SOCKET-RECEIVE don't _appear_ to make a lot of sense
2017-02-27T21:40:42Z Fare: so I wouldn't really call it a new feature, more like a cleanup and polishing of the existing feature. It can also let me say that so many half-assed run-program libraries can be declared superseded.
2017-02-27T21:40:48Z TruePika: SOCKET-RECEIVE takes some :ELEMENT-TYPE, and SOCKET-SEND takes some :EXTERNAL-FORMAT
2017-02-27T21:41:28Z jasom: TruePika: are you discovering that usocket isn't very useful if you need to do more than very simple things with sockets?
2017-02-27T21:41:48Z TruePika: jasom: sb-bsd-sockets, firstly
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2017-02-27T21:41:52Z jasom: ah
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2017-02-27T21:42:32Z TruePika: and I can't manage to understand the actual usage
2017-02-27T21:42:42Z TruePika: it doesn't help that there aren't any examples
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2017-02-27T21:44:46Z TruePika: okay, :EXTERNAL-FORMAT is for sending a STRING; I presume the buffer otherwise needs to have (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) in it
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2017-02-27T21:45:24Z TruePika: though :ELEMENT-TYPE is still a mystery
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2017-02-27T21:47:01Z TruePika: If I open a stream via SOCKET-MAKE-STREAM, what issues can arise if I never CLOSE it?
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2017-02-27T21:47:21Z TruePika: (but rather dispose of it via gc)
2017-02-27T21:47:44Z jasom: I would guess that the underlying socket never goes away, but would have to look at the code
2017-02-27T21:48:01Z TruePika: "If auto-close is true, the underlying os socket is automatically closed after the stream and the socket have been garbage collected."
2017-02-27T21:48:16Z jasom: oh, that's nice
2017-02-27T21:48:53Z TruePika: or hm, is the normal issue the lack of closing file descriptors?
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2017-02-27T21:49:57Z jasom: that would be my guess
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2017-02-27T22:40:26Z TruePika: where did my docs for sockets go?
2017-02-27T22:40:34Z TruePika: ...as in `man` docs
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2017-02-27T22:42:30Z TruePika: what does the union of MSG_DONTWAIT and MSG_WAITALL mean?
2017-02-27T22:43:46Z TruePika: lol ads "70% Off Bsd Sockets - Best Price On Bsd Sockets Buy Now."
2017-02-27T22:44:00Z oleo: lol
2017-02-27T22:44:04Z phoe: hahaha
2017-02-27T22:44:05Z phoe: clhs values
2017-02-27T22:44:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm
2017-02-27T22:44:12Z phoe: in VALUES type specifier
2017-02-27T22:44:13Z phoe: \reviewer{Barmar: Missing ''&key''}
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2017-02-27T22:44:54Z phoe: I wonder if that was intentional though.
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2017-02-27T22:46:19Z Bike: having key would be dumb
2017-02-27T22:46:24Z Bike: much like having allow-other-keys is dumb
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2017-02-27T22:46:56Z TruePika: oh great, how am I supposed to poll a SOCKET?
2017-02-27T22:47:07Z phoe: yes, one of the two is weird
2017-02-27T22:47:15Z phoe: TruePika: listen on its stream?
2017-02-27T22:47:15Z TruePika: there's no e.g. SOCKET-POLL
2017-02-27T22:47:24Z TruePika: phoe: _without_ a stream, let's say
2017-02-27T22:47:55Z TruePika: even then, LISTEN might only be defined for character streams
2017-02-27T22:48:11Z aeth: Bike: What's wrong with allow-other-keys?
2017-02-27T22:48:28Z Bike: in this context, it is ridiculous
2017-02-27T22:48:41Z TruePika: hm, I might be able to hack it
2017-02-27T22:48:53Z TruePika: if I can get access to poll(2) through e.g. CFFI
2017-02-27T22:49:02Z TruePika: since there's a SOCKET-FILE-DESCRIPTOR
2017-02-27T22:49:15Z TruePika: though that ofc isn't ideal
2017-02-27T22:49:21Z phoe: TruePika: http://www.rprepository.com/site.php?char=27856
2017-02-27T22:49:33Z Bike: values types as they are are pretty bad, but at least they make sense conceptually. keys would not
2017-02-27T22:49:33Z phoe: this is how usocket does it
2017-02-27T22:49:43Z phoe: and it uses file descriptors.
2017-02-27T22:49:50Z TruePika: phoe: ?
2017-02-27T22:49:57Z TruePika: that isn't what you thought it was?
2017-02-27T22:50:07Z TruePika: check your link
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2017-02-27T22:51:59Z phoe: dafuq
2017-02-27T22:52:02Z phoe: this is the wrong link
2017-02-27T22:52:11Z phoe: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/sbcl.lisp#L512
2017-02-27T22:52:13Z phoe: here
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2017-02-27T22:53:10Z fouric: ...would anyone happen to know why my cl-launch script can't find lisp-stripper, even though i added its path to asdf:*central-registry* ?
2017-02-27T22:53:13Z fouric: Component "lisp-stripper" not found, required by #<SYSTEM "cl-launch-build-0">
2017-02-27T22:53:56Z TruePika: what's the ASDF's name?
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2017-02-27T22:54:38Z TruePika discovers SB-UNIX:UNIX-POLL
2017-02-27T22:55:34Z fouric: TruePika: ...i *think* it's lisp-stripper
2017-02-27T22:55:44Z fouric: i popped into sbcl and ran (require 'lisp-stripper)
2017-02-27T22:55:56Z fouric: which compiled some things and didn't fail
2017-02-27T22:56:01Z TruePika: can you not check the filesystem?
2017-02-27T22:56:07Z fouric: so i assumed that (1) that was its name and (2) it can be found
2017-02-27T22:56:19Z fouric: i'm not sure what you mean...
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2017-02-27T22:56:29Z fouric: i git clone'd the lisp-stripper repo
2017-02-27T22:56:32Z fouric: put it in a place
2017-02-27T22:56:41Z fouric: then added the path to asdf:*central-registry*
2017-02-27T22:57:03Z fouric: TruePika: wait, did you mean the ASDF *system's* name or the name of the ASDF itself?
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2017-02-27T22:59:48Z fouric: asdf version is 3.1.6
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2017-02-27T23:00:56Z phoe: haha
2017-02-27T23:01:02Z phoe: I just mistyped not evaluated as note valuated
2017-02-27T23:04:59Z fouric: ugh
2017-02-27T23:05:04Z fouric: what is cl-launch even doing
2017-02-27T23:05:26Z fouric: i can load lisp-stripper using asdf *or* quicklisp
2017-02-27T23:05:38Z fouric: how the heck can cl-launch not find it
2017-02-27T23:06:42Z Xach: fouric: when quicklisp is loaded, it augments asdf's system search.
2017-02-27T23:06:54Z Xach: maybe that has something to do with it.
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2017-02-27T23:07:38Z fouric: maybe!
2017-02-27T23:07:53Z fouric: or...maybe my .sbclrc isn't getting loaded by cl-launch
2017-02-27T23:07:55Z fouric: oh derp
2017-02-27T23:08:07Z fouric: there's probably a system-wide asdf directory
2017-02-27T23:09:38Z fouric: ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source/, apparently
2017-02-27T23:09:57Z fouric: now i just get#<SYNONYM-STREAM :SYMBOL SB-SYS:*STDIN* {10001CEF83}> fell through ETYPECASE expression. Wanted one of ((OR NULL PATHNAME) STRING).
2017-02-27T23:10:32Z fouric: ...is cl-launch still being used?
2017-02-27T23:10:35Z Xach: what's the backtrace look like?
2017-02-27T23:10:42Z Xach: fouric: i think people use it.
2017-02-27T23:10:55Z fouric: huh
2017-02-27T23:10:57Z Xach: i found it too hard to figure out when i first tried it
2017-02-27T23:11:45Z fouric: it was tricky to get lisp-stripper working
2017-02-27T23:11:51Z fouric: ...but that was me just not knowing asdf
2017-02-27T23:12:01Z fouric: this ETYPECASE failure looks a lot more like a bug
2017-02-27T23:12:20Z fouric: Xach: putting backtrace in paste.lisp.org now
2017-02-27T23:12:22Z fouric: (it's long)
2017-02-27T23:13:20Z fouric: http://paste.lisp.org/display/340133
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2017-02-27T23:17:45Z phoe: tomorrow will be a grand day
2017-02-27T23:18:20Z phoe: I'll most likely be showcasing the completed dictionary (in its beta state) and opening CLUS for contributions and reviews.
2017-02-27T23:19:38Z phoe goes asleep
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2017-02-27T23:27:45Z fouric: i give up
2017-02-27T23:28:06Z fouric: bash scripts it is
2017-02-27T23:29:59Z fiddlerwoaroof_: fouric: I really like using net.didierverna.clon for writing commandline utilities
2017-02-27T23:30:10Z Fare: fouric, what are you trying to do?
2017-02-27T23:30:37Z Fare: I'm very happy using uiop, inferior-shell, cl-scripting, cl-launch, command-line-arguments for scripting.
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2017-02-27T23:34:21Z Fare: fouric, lisp-stripper comes with a script lispwc that works for me
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2017-02-27T23:34:44Z TruePika: ...wut
2017-02-27T23:35:04Z TruePika: My code is failing when I have it connected to a live game
2017-02-27T23:35:17Z Fare: how are you invoking it that it claims you're trying to redefine main ?
2017-02-27T23:35:19Z TruePika: but playing back prerecorded data with socat works
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2017-02-27T23:35:33Z Fare: fouric, *central-registry* is evil
2017-02-27T23:36:23Z Fare: and I don't know how/where you set it, but by default cl-launch won't read personal initialization files.
2017-02-27T23:36:50Z Fare: instead it expects you to setup your source-registry and/or use the default one
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2017-02-27T23:39:42Z fouric: Fare: well, i managed to get the script to load lisp-stripper by putting it in ~/.local/share/common-lisp/source/
2017-02-27T23:40:05Z fouric: ...but then that ETYPECASE exception
2017-02-27T23:40:37Z fouric: Fare: all i'm trying to do is execute the first example at http://cliki.net/cl-launch
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2017-02-28T01:17:33Z akkad hunts for any examples of emacs lisp calling out to sbcl repl to crunch data and return to display in emas
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2017-02-28T01:21:14Z drmeister: White_Flame: Thank you.  "Trample town" - I like that.
2017-02-28T01:22:04Z drmeister: It's like "LazyTown" but more violent.
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2017-02-28T01:28:58Z Fare: fouric, you can also put things in ~/common-lisp/
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2017-02-28T01:36:52Z emma_ is now known as emma
2017-02-28T01:40:27Z White_Flame: drmeister: I guess LazyTown would be Haskell here ;)
2017-02-28T01:41:06Z White_Flame: "Yar har fiddle de dee, using a Monad is alright with me!"
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2017-02-28T02:09:01Z drmeister: Bike:  I'm getting a lot of apparently spurious warnings on global variable accesses that I think happen on global variables that aren't bound when the forms that access them are compiled.
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2017-02-28T02:09:09Z drmeister: How do other implementations shut those down?
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2017-02-28T02:10:11Z drmeister: (defvar *foo*)  (defun x () (let ((*foo* t)) (bar)))  (defun y () (print *foo*))
2017-02-28T02:14:56Z Xach: clasp is checking boundp at compile time?
2017-02-28T02:14:57Z drmeister: Uh - it's not unbound variables I should be warning about but undefined variables.
2017-02-28T02:15:09Z drmeister: Yeah - never mind - I don't know what I'm doing.
2017-02-28T02:17:05Z drmeister: Ok,  I misunderstood what Bike was suggesting.
2017-02-28T02:17:24Z drmeister: If I compile-file  a file containing...     (defun y () (print *foob*))
2017-02-28T02:17:31Z drmeister: And nothing else it warns me:
2017-02-28T02:17:46Z drmeister:    Undefined variable:    ;     *FOOB*
2017-02-28T02:18:06Z Bike: that seems reasonable to me
2017-02-28T02:18:20Z drmeister: What is it checking?   Is the reader signaling an error that the compiler is catching and reporting that the variable is missing?
2017-02-28T02:18:40Z Bike: uh, no, it just looks for information about the variable in the environment
2017-02-28T02:18:52Z Bike: if it's lexical, or declaimed special (which defvar does) it's satisfies
2017-02-28T02:18:53Z drmeister: Whoops - this latest example is what SBCL does.   I'm trying to figure out what Clasp should do.
2017-02-28T02:18:55Z Bike: satisfied*
2017-02-28T02:19:08Z Bike: if there's no information it signals an error which you can reduce to a warning
2017-02-28T02:19:19Z Bike: (it = cleavir)
2017-02-28T02:19:51Z drmeister: No information...
2017-02-28T02:21:46Z Bike: yeah, like if it's never seen a symbol before
2017-02-28T02:22:01Z drmeister: I'm getting a couple dozen warnings the first time I ran with the code enabled - maybe it's my code.
2017-02-28T02:22:32Z Bike: well... do you often use variables without defvaring them first?
2017-02-28T02:22:35Z Bike: (or defparameter)
2017-02-28T02:24:07Z drmeister: Not intentionally.
2017-02-28T02:24:31Z drmeister: But I've never had anything in place to check - so maybe it's catching problems that have been there for a while.
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2017-02-28T02:25:18Z drmeister: This is from the last 19 files of aclasp
2017-02-28T02:25:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/OMcyxybn/
2017-02-28T02:25:44Z drmeister: Any suggestions on how to pretty those error messages up are greatly welcomed.
2017-02-28T02:27:43Z drmeister: The first three complaining about SIZEOF-UINTPTR_t are proper warnings and would signal an error if the code that accessed them were ever evaluated.
2017-02-28T02:28:14Z Bike: undefined function should be a style warning, not a full warning
2017-02-28T02:28:32Z Bike: and uh, i hope some of those are spurious. make-load-form ought to be defined...
2017-02-28T02:28:57Z drmeister: Yeah - these are all legitimate warnings - medals all around!
2017-02-28T02:29:14Z Bike: i know function-lambda-expression has been undefined for a while
2017-02-28T02:29:55Z drmeister: make-load-form is not defined yet.  We are bootstrapping out of the primordial ooze.
2017-02-28T02:30:39Z Bike: what's calling it then? and yep, looks legit https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/testing/src/lisp/kernel/cmp/cmpobj.lsp#L41-L42
2017-02-28T02:30:54Z Bike: imagine, a compiler that warns when you when something won't work. incredible technology
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2017-02-28T02:33:08Z drmeister: It's like magic - but I understand it!
2017-02-28T02:34:09Z drmeister suffers C++ Stockholm syndrome. segfaults are C++'s way of saying "slow down" (paraphrased from Terry Pratchett RIP)
2017-02-28T02:34:44Z Bike: what are you talkin bout, c++ gives all /kinds/ of ten line template unification impossibility warnings for your convenience
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2017-02-28T02:43:36Z drmeister: So to extend asdf/quicklisp systems to support Clasp, I'm (1) forking them (2) putting them in quicklisp/local-projects (3) hacking clasp support into them and (4) pushing them back to my fork.
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2017-02-28T03:05:34Z Fare: drmeister, don't forget to send modifications upstream
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2017-02-28T03:19:03Z drmeister: That's step 6 of my 6-step program.
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2017-02-28T03:26:14Z drmeister: Warnings now:
2017-02-28T03:26:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/pmbhCJrG/
2017-02-28T03:27:55Z Bike: i'm a bit worried at that last one where it's repeated eight times
2017-02-28T03:27:57Z drmeister: The loop code generates lots of undefined variable warnings
2017-02-28T03:28:08Z drmeister: That's to get the point across.
2017-02-28T03:28:20Z Bike: there are a few other duplicates above too
2017-02-28T03:28:30Z drmeister: Yeah, now that you mention it.
2017-02-28T03:29:50Z Bike: it only appears in the source once... hm
2017-02-28T03:30:29Z drmeister: A macro maybe?
2017-02-28T03:31:49Z Bike: hm, maybe
2017-02-28T03:32:18Z drmeister: Every time a function is looked up it is pushed into a list within a hash table keyed to the name of the function.
2017-02-28T03:32:18Z Bike: both the no-tr-to-translator-name dupe is legit, maybe it's fine. i just don't want cleavir to be signalling spuriously
2017-02-28T03:32:31Z drmeister: The compiler might be looking up the information multiple times.
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2017-02-28T03:32:46Z drmeister: Oh - this isn't cleavir yet.
2017-02-28T03:32:58Z Bike: you get the errors from cleavir, don't you?
2017-02-28T03:33:09Z drmeister: I added it in a way that it's available to bclasp and Cleavir.
2017-02-28T03:33:22Z Bike: oh.
2017-02-28T03:33:31Z drmeister: It's easier when everybody shares.
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2017-02-28T03:34:11Z drmeister applies the lessons learned from preschool to compiler design.
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2017-02-28T03:41:57Z drmeister: I don't understand why people rag on Common Lisp having four kinds of equal - it's awesome.
2017-02-28T03:42:54Z pillton: It is a weird complaint.
2017-02-28T03:43:01Z drmeister: I just wrote an equalp(...) method for Clasp's SourcePosInfo object (it tracks source position info).  Now I can use PUSHNEW  with :test #'equalp and it will recognize equalp SourcePosInfo objects.
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2017-02-28T03:44:02Z Bike: that... might nto be allowed
2017-02-28T03:44:04Z drmeister whispers under his breath "cotton headed ninny muggins!"
2017-02-28T03:44:13Z Bike: i mean, they're basically structs, presumably, so maybe it's ok
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2017-02-28T03:44:14Z drmeister: Really?
2017-02-28T03:44:22Z drmeister: They are basically structs.
2017-02-28T03:44:39Z Bike: equalp works on structs and hash tables and stuff, but it's supposed to use eq for anything not expliclty listed
2017-02-28T03:44:44Z drmeister: Or basically 4 element integer vectors
2017-02-28T03:44:46Z Bike: well, not that it will really matter
2017-02-28T03:45:29Z drmeister: Really?  Even if they are non standard?
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2017-02-28T03:46:21Z Bike: clhs equalp
2017-02-28T03:46:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equalp.htm
2017-02-28T03:46:59Z White_Flame: of course, this is the age old quirk of CL that not every standard function is generic, and thus can't be extended by the user
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2017-02-28T03:48:43Z drmeister: Really?  That's a quirk?  That idea blows my mind.   That would really be a programmable programming language.
2017-02-28T03:49:22Z drmeister: It would require very efficient GF dispatch.
2017-02-28T03:49:29Z drmeister: And bootstrapping would be nightmarish.
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2017-02-28T03:50:25Z Bike: something like specialization store that could be done at compile time would be ok.
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2017-02-28T03:52:07Z drmeister: A programmable programmable programming language as it were.
2017-02-28T03:53:16Z White_Flame: it would need whole-program analysis & dynamic recompilation, ideally
2017-02-28T03:53:36Z White_Flame: the model of "definitions are actions which mutate the VM" makes things like that problematic
2017-02-28T03:55:28Z White_Flame: s/VM/image/ to taste
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2017-02-28T03:59:14Z pillton: Bike: specialization store works at compile time.
2017-02-28T03:59:32Z Bike: that's what i said
2017-02-28T03:59:41Z Bike: oh, i didn't mean "like specialization store, except at compile time"
2017-02-28T03:59:53Z Bike: i meant "at compile time, like specialization store"
2017-02-28T03:59:57Z pillton: Oh ok.
2017-02-28T04:01:16Z drmeister: Should CALL-NEXT-METHOD be coming up as an undefined function?
2017-02-28T04:01:36Z Bike: not if it's in a defmethod
2017-02-28T04:01:42Z Bike: it's ok for it to be undefined globally, though
2017-02-28T04:01:51Z drmeister: Anywhere it's invoked - it should be defined lexically shouldn't it?
2017-02-28T04:01:53Z pillton: Only if it is used outside make-method-lambda.
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2017-02-28T04:02:22Z Bike: "The consequences of attempting to use call-next-method outside of a method-defining form are undefined. ", straightforward
2017-02-28T04:02:53Z drmeister: Hmm, it's coming from these:
2017-02-28T04:02:54Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/73ZiYYN8/
2017-02-28T04:03:03Z drmeister: (cleavir-io:define-save-info ...
2017-02-28T04:03:29Z Bike: define-save-info uses an odd method combination, maybe something funky is happening?
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2017-02-28T04:04:20Z Bike: or it could just be the call-next-method in the macroexpansion... which is in defmethod print-object
2017-02-28T04:05:12Z Bike: these warnings aren't stopping the build, right? do you get a warning from just a regular defmethod with call-next-method in it?
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2017-02-28T04:07:58Z Bike: actually, since call-next-method can't just be defined later like the rest, this would indicate an actual problem
2017-02-28T04:13:01Z pillton: Can it be disabled for specific method combinations?
2017-02-28T04:13:38Z Bike: i think when it's "disabled" it signals an error rather than being undefined
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2017-02-28T04:13:52Z pillton: Does it make sense for the append method combinator for example?
2017-02-28T04:14:09Z Bike: oh, nope, it just says "not supported"
2017-02-28T04:14:33Z Bike: and it's not supported in a primary method of a build in method combination other than standard, no
2017-02-28T04:14:50Z Bike: however, save-info doesn't use it
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2017-02-28T04:24:16Z drmeister: So is it a problem in my code (clos) or cleavir
2017-02-28T04:24:28Z Bike: not sure
2017-02-28T04:24:36Z Bike: can you test it like i said
2017-02-28T04:24:48Z drmeister: Oh sorry - I missed that.
2017-02-28T04:25:12Z drmeister: What test was that?
2017-02-28T04:25:36Z Bike: just whether defmethods with call-next-method signal a warning too
2017-02-28T04:26:00Z drmeister: It's building cclasp right now - so once it's done I'll check or there will be lots of warnings.
2017-02-28T04:26:10Z Bike: gotcha
2017-02-28T04:26:21Z drmeister: [72 of 273]
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2017-02-28T05:04:14Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Are optimize declarations mostly just binary choices? i.e. do any compilers take account of (speed 2) or (safety 1)?
2017-02-28T05:05:19Z Bike: they do, let me get an example
2017-02-28T05:06:16Z Bike: on sbcl if you have safety 0, you get no type checks (from declarations). if (and (< safety 2) (< safety speed)) you get weakened type checks
2017-02-28T05:06:23Z Bike: and safety 3 gets full type checks.
2017-02-28T05:07:18Z Bike: there's a couple other things where it's relative values that are checked
2017-02-28T05:08:33Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Interesting.
2017-02-28T05:10:46Z loke: Doesn't Beach usually show up around this time?
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2017-02-28T05:11:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: It isn't really late at night until beach shows up to say good morning.
2017-02-28T05:12:12Z Bike: roughly. do you need something from him?
2017-02-28T05:13:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: No, I'm just commenting on what loke said and my own poor sleep schedule.
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2017-02-28T05:29:59Z loke needs something from him, yes.
2017-02-28T05:30:11Z loke: Or actually, he needs something from me. :-)
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2017-02-28T05:50:27Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2017-02-28T05:50:47Z beach slept late today.  
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2017-02-28T06:07:17Z loke: Beach!
2017-02-28T06:08:03Z loke: beach: Shouldn't I get some output when parsing this file?
2017-02-28T06:08:04Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/340150
2017-02-28T06:08:38Z beach: What output did you expect?
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2017-02-28T06:09:02Z beach: It only indicates symbols that have no package prefix and that are not in CL and not in *package*
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2017-02-28T06:09:44Z beach: I assume this file is in the cl-user package and that QUIT exists there?
2017-02-28T06:10:32Z beach: loke: Did you load the file?
2017-02-28T06:10:43Z beach: The file has to be loaded into the system first.
2017-02-28T06:10:51Z loke: beach: Hmm, no.
2017-02-28T06:11:16Z loke: I see.
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2017-02-28T06:11:54Z loke: I guess I have th rethink the design a bit then. I'll have to inetgrate this thing with the running Lisp runtime. There is a SLIME API for that. This is a good time to learn that API I think. :-)
2017-02-28T06:12:29Z beach: Oh, yes, I see.  That complicates things for the Emacs interface.
2017-02-28T06:13:04Z beach: loke: If you don't have time, don't worry about it.
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2017-02-28T06:13:28Z beach: loke: This was supposed to be a quick thing, and if it no longer is, don't feel you have to do the additional work.
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2017-02-28T06:20:27Z BusFactor1: Does anyone remember the name of that project to implement CL in CL?
2017-02-28T06:20:47Z beach: BusFactor1: There have been several
2017-02-28T06:20:57Z beach: minion: Please tell BusFactor1 about SICL.
2017-02-28T06:20:58Z minion: BusFactor1: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
2017-02-28T06:20:59Z BusFactor1: I'm remembering a recent one.
2017-02-28T06:21:10Z BusFactor1: Yes, that's what it was, thanks :)
2017-02-28T06:21:20Z beach: My pleasure. :)
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2017-02-28T06:22:04Z beach: BusFactor1: Since I am the author, I can answer any questions you might have.
2017-02-28T06:22:31Z BusFactor1: I started writing a bit about my 'typers' idea that i've been using in my synthesizer: https://github.com/BusFactor1Inc/typers
2017-02-28T06:22:46Z BusFactor1: Thanks beach, good to know.  How is the project going?
2017-02-28T06:23:10Z beach: BusFactor1: Slow but steady progress.  Bike is working on the Clevir part.
2017-02-28T06:23:20Z beach: minion: Please tell BusFactor1 about Cleavir.
2017-02-28T06:23:20Z minion: BusFactor1: Cleavir: A project to create an implementation-independent compilation framework for Common Lisp. Currently Cleavir is part of SICL, but that might change in the future
2017-02-28T06:23:34Z BusFactor1: Interesting.
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2017-02-28T06:24:34Z BusFactor1: Are you designing SICL to use a subset of CL or is all of it fair game?
2017-02-28T06:24:37Z beach: BusFactor1: Cleavir is currently used in SICL, but also in Clasp.  And there are some plans to write a Cleavir-based compiler for ECL.
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2017-02-28T06:25:14Z beach: BusFactor1: I attempted to use a subset, but it was too painful to program, so now I use the full language.
2017-02-28T06:25:27Z beach: BusFactor1: For example, LOOP is used to implement LOOP.
2017-02-28T06:25:54Z BusFactor1: Ah.  Is it capable enough to run any of the ANSI test suite?
2017-02-28T06:26:07Z BusFactor1: Or the test suite that's around that I've seen, maybe not ANSI.
2017-02-28T06:26:23Z beach: It is nowhere near that state.
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2017-02-28T06:26:27Z beach: Only certain modules work.
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2017-02-28T06:26:32Z Bike: no backend. very sad
2017-02-28T06:26:40Z beach: And some of them can't be tested independently.
2017-02-28T06:26:48Z beach: ... like the CLOS implementation.
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2017-02-28T06:34:21Z BusFactor1: With time.
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2017-02-28T06:36:58Z beach: BusFactor1: This idea of using a subset of Common Lisp, or even a language other than Common Lisp, to implement a Common Lisp system made me think about bootstrapping and such.  I am still not finished thinking it through, but there is likely to be some interesting conclusions once I am done.
2017-02-28T06:37:33Z beach: And, then, I will write it down and submit it to ELS or something.
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2017-02-28T06:39:45Z beach: Even a maintained system such as SBCL is written in a subset in some respect.  The compiler does not use generic functions and standard classes.
2017-02-28T06:40:26Z beach: Presumably, this way of doing it is a leftover from the way of creating a Common Lisp system by having a CLtL1 implementation with PCL added to it later on.
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2017-02-28T06:44:19Z beach: Now I am wondering, is there any existing Common Lisp implementation that was entirely written after the standard was published?
2017-02-28T06:47:02Z Bike: that one for metal?
2017-02-28T06:47:12Z Bike: i mean, i assume it cribbed some stuff
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2017-02-28T06:47:42Z Bike: mezzano.
2017-02-28T06:48:13Z Bike: latest commit is "another subtypep hack". relatable
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2017-02-28T06:52:26Z beach: Yes, maybe mezzano is a candidate.  Also Movitz now that I think about it.  Don't know how much they borrowed from others, though.
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2017-02-28T06:53:48Z beach: I think I read that Mezzano uses Closette.
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2017-02-28T07:20:39Z TruePika: hm, I found a bug in CCL
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2017-02-28T07:20:50Z TruePika: (signum -0.0) => 0.0
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2017-02-28T07:21:23Z TruePika: CLHS says that it should be -0.0
2017-02-28T07:21:35Z TruePika: and signed zeroes are present
2017-02-28T07:21:41Z beach: Where does it say that?
2017-02-28T07:22:00Z TruePika: CLHS: (eql (signum -0.0) -0.0) => true
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2017-02-28T07:22:13Z beach: That's not the same thing.
2017-02-28T07:22:38Z beach: ... as (signum -0.0) giving a number that prints as -0.0.
2017-02-28T07:23:16Z TruePika: according to eql's page, (eql 0.0 -0.0) => NIL
2017-02-28T07:23:37Z beach: clhs eql
2017-02-28T07:23:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm
2017-02-28T07:24:23Z beach: If an implementation supports positive and negative zeros as distinct values, then (eql 0.0 -0.0) returns false. Otherwise, when the syntax -0.0 is read it is interpreted as the value 0.0, and so (eql 0.0 -0.0) returns true.
2017-02-28T07:24:47Z TruePika: CCL supports them; -0.0 => -0.0
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2017-02-28T07:24:58Z TruePika: and (eql 0.0 -0.0) => NIL
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2017-02-28T07:25:17Z beach: OK.
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2017-02-28T07:26:48Z TruePika feels like the only reason why the signum page uses eql for the -0.0 case is so that implementations without signed zeroes still hold
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2017-02-28T07:27:25Z beach: TruePika: I don't know about CCL, and you are probably right.  But everything you said before that is incorrect, as far as I can tell.  The Common Lisp HyperSpec does not say that (signum -0.0) should be -0.0.
2017-02-28T07:27:48Z beach: And the page on EQL does not say that (eql 0.0 -0.0) should return NIL.
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2017-02-28T07:28:49Z TruePika: "If an implementation supports positive and negative zeros as distinct values, then (eql 0.0 -0.0) returns false."
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2017-02-28T07:30:35Z TruePika: heh, I like one of the examples on the page though
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2017-02-28T07:30:48Z TruePika: (eql "Foo" "Foo") => true   OR=> false
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2017-02-28T07:31:37Z TruePika: especially note "true," which is any non-NIL value
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2017-02-28T07:35:01Z TruePika: beach: in any case, CCL goes against the statement in the Notes section on SIGNUM
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2017-02-28T07:36:19Z TruePika: since (zerop -0.0) is true, (signum -0.0) should be -0.0, if the statement is correct
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2017-02-28T07:44:17Z TruePika: hm, what is the proper value of (sqrt -0.0) ?
2017-02-28T07:45:08Z TruePika: CCL is giving a negative zero, but I'd think it would be a complex with a positive real component
2017-02-28T07:46:43Z TruePika: okay, that is correct
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2017-02-28T07:51:45Z beach: clhs defclass
2017-02-28T07:51:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defcla.htm
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2017-02-28T07:52:28Z beach: This page says that the class definition is available at compile time, but what would be a good, implementation-independent, way of checking, at compile time, whether the class has been defined?
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2017-02-28T07:52:49Z Bike: find-class?
2017-02-28T07:53:03Z beach: It returns NIL at compile time.
2017-02-28T07:53:11Z Bike: it shouldn't
2017-02-28T07:53:23Z Bike: "The compiler must make the class definition available to be returned by find-class when its environment argument is a value received as the environment parameter of a macro."
2017-02-28T07:53:29Z beach: It says that the class definition is available to find-class when given an environment argument that is the environment parameter of a macro.
2017-02-28T07:53:37Z beach: Right.
2017-02-28T07:53:54Z beach: So how do I make that work?
2017-02-28T07:54:33Z flip214: clhs find-class
2017-02-28T07:54:33Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_c.htm
2017-02-28T07:54:36Z Bike: (defmacro cfind-class (name &environment env) `',(find-class name env)) or something?
2017-02-28T07:55:03Z Bike: maybe with other quotation, that stuff confuses
2017-02-28T07:55:14Z flip214: beach: a macro can get &environment, and find-class takes an optional environment argument
2017-02-28T07:55:20Z flip214:  find-class symbol &optional errorp environment => class
2017-02-28T07:55:26Z beach: I know.
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2017-02-28T07:56:19Z flip214: so, if I understand correctly, you've got a file with (defclass) and (some-macro-call), and when doing compile-file against that the macro can't see the class?
2017-02-28T07:56:21Z beach: I tried (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (macrolet ((mac (&environment env)))) (format *trace-output* "~s" (find-class 'foo nil (mac))))
2017-02-28T07:56:44Z beach: I only need to know that the class has been defined, not its definition.
2017-02-28T07:56:51Z flip214: one sec
2017-02-28T07:59:35Z Bike: mac is supposed to return env?
2017-02-28T07:59:47Z beach: Yes, but maybe that won't work.
2017-02-28T08:00:06Z flip214: hmmm
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2017-02-28T08:02:31Z beach: When I do this: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (macrolet ((mac (&environment env) (find-class 'hello nil env))) (format *trace-output* "~s~%" (mac))))
2017-02-28T08:02:45Z beach: I get "The variable ENV is defined byt never used."
2017-02-28T08:02:50Z beach: What am I doing wrong?
2017-02-28T08:02:53Z Bike: yeah, me too. that's weird.
2017-02-28T08:02:57Z flip214: my (defclass) expands into a  (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL) (SB-KERNEL::%COMPILER-DEFCLASS 'FOO4 'NIL 'NIL 'NIL))
2017-02-28T08:03:30Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/340160
2017-02-28T08:03:35Z flip214: is what I'm playing with
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2017-02-28T08:04:25Z Bike: actually i might have done this before and concluded sbcl was nonconforming...
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2017-02-28T08:04:29Z beach: flip214: What do you get?
2017-02-28T08:04:45Z Bike: for one thing, sbcl find-class never uses the environment argument
2017-02-28T08:04:47Z flip214: well, when I eval that forms one-by-one, the macro finds the class.
2017-02-28T08:04:52Z flip214: but with only compile-file it doesn't.
2017-02-28T08:04:55Z flip214: perhaps that's a bug?
2017-02-28T08:04:56Z beach: I see.
2017-02-28T08:05:06Z beach: Bike: Wow!
2017-02-28T08:05:08Z flip214: in my understanding the macro call should be able to see the class
2017-02-28T08:05:16Z beach: Yes, me too.
2017-02-28T08:05:24Z flip214: that makes 3 of us ;/
2017-02-28T08:05:45Z Bike: and compiler defclass seems to just register it as a type name, rather than touch find-class at all, but i'm not sure there
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2017-02-28T08:06:26Z beach: That would be OK for all purposes except the one that we cited before.
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2017-02-28T08:09:17Z beach: ECL works.
2017-02-28T08:11:39Z beach: What about other implementations?  I only have SBCL and ECL installed.
2017-02-28T08:13:00Z Bike: ccl has a "COMPILE-TIME-CLASS" class for this.
2017-02-28T08:13:31Z beach: But is it returned by the call to find-class?
2017-02-28T08:13:35Z Bike: yeah
2017-02-28T08:13:50Z beach: This is looking more and more like a bug in SBCL, right?
2017-02-28T08:13:56Z Bike: yeah
2017-02-28T08:14:57Z beach: OK.  Thanks Bike!  Thanks flip214!
2017-02-28T08:16:35Z flip214: you're welcome. especially with new, interesting stuff to read ;)
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2017-02-28T08:40:37Z aeth: The new SLIME in the latest Quicklisp broke my .emacs due to my paredit... somehow.
2017-02-28T08:41:50Z aeth: Now I have to enable-paredit-mode on slime/etc. after I run ~/quicklisp/slime-helper.el
2017-02-28T08:42:27Z aeth: Before I didn't.
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2017-02-28T08:56:17Z aeth: Also, unrelatedly, my game engine now hangs while compiling. It takes minutes at 100% single-threaded CPU, which is really strange for SBCL. It hangs on a very small file whose only updated dependency is alexandria. The only change in alexandria is rcurry. It uses curry and lerp.
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2017-02-28T08:59:15Z aeth: This very messy temporary code that I wouldn't even use if it had always taken 1 minute to compile the file. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/e839ed04068d57ad2b02d65c2db614fb69d7061d/text/font.lisp
2017-02-28T09:01:14Z aeth: (No, commenting out the inlines doesn't make it go faster. It's still 59 seconds.)
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2017-02-28T09:43:57Z phoe_: clhs typep
2017-02-28T09:43:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_typep.htm
2017-02-28T09:44:04Z phoe_: type-specifier---any type specifier except values, or a type specifier list whose first element is either function or values.
2017-02-28T09:44:16Z phoe_: this line is confusing
2017-02-28T09:44:38Z phoe_: (or "any type specifier except values" "a type specifier list whose first element is either function or values")
2017-02-28T09:44:47Z phoe_: that's how I read it initially
2017-02-28T09:45:06Z phoe_: while it should be read as
2017-02-28T09:45:21Z phoe_: any type specifier except (or "values" "a type specifier list whose first element is either function or values")
2017-02-28T09:46:16Z flip214: yeah, that could use a rewrite ;)
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2017-02-28T09:47:10Z phoe_: how to rewrite it then?
2017-02-28T09:47:41Z phoe_: any type specifier that is neither values nor a type specifier list...?
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2017-02-28T09:50:16Z phoe_: aw shucks
2017-02-28T09:50:23Z phoe_: I think I just finished the last dict page.
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2017-02-28T10:00:47Z phoe_: welp
2017-02-28T10:00:48Z phoe_: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php?id=clus:todo
2017-02-28T10:00:59Z beach: Congratulations!
2017-02-28T10:01:01Z phoe_: the dicts are all parsed.
2017-02-28T10:01:06Z phoe_: now to fix them up.
2017-02-28T10:01:09Z flip214: type-specifier---any type specifier, except 'values' or a type specifier list starting with either 'function' or 'values'
2017-02-28T10:01:11Z flip214: phoe_: ^^
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2017-02-28T10:01:15Z phoe_: flip214: good
2017-02-28T10:01:15Z flip214: mostly move the comma
2017-02-28T10:02:57Z phoe_: flip214: fixed, will push soon
2017-02-28T10:03:30Z phoe_: pushed - the change will take an hour to go live though since tymoon.eu only pulls the git version on full hours.
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2017-02-28T10:11:54Z flip214: phoe_: thanks.
2017-02-28T10:12:04Z phoe_: flip214: it's me who should be thanking you~
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2017-02-28T10:12:39Z flip214: phoe_: not really. a line now and then isn't comparable in any way to the effort you spend here!!
2017-02-28T10:12:55Z phoe_: flip214:
2017-02-28T10:13:06Z phoe_: (with-celebration (make-celebration 'clus-dicts-parsed)
2017-02-28T10:13:12Z phoe_:   it's party time!
2017-02-28T10:14:13Z phoe_:   the last person turns out the light. oh, and closes the paren.
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2017-02-28T10:29:11Z flip214:  (lights-out)
2017-02-28T10:29:14Z flip214:  (values))
2017-02-28T10:30:01Z phoe_: ;_;
2017-02-28T10:30:05Z phoe_: that was a quick and quiet party
2017-02-28T10:31:48Z beach: phoe_: This is great news indeed.
2017-02-28T10:31:55Z beach: Excellent work.
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2017-02-28T10:33:10Z flip214: phoe_: the garbage collector did most of the cleanup work ;)
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2017-02-28T11:05:21Z sirkmatija_: Cl-charm get-char function doesn't detect keypresses, unless I hold the key down for longer time or press it multiple times. I have evaled both enable-raw-input and enable-non-blocking-mode. Anybody knows where is the problem? Thanks in advance
2017-02-28T11:06:49Z sirkmatija_: Oh, I also use get-char with :ignore-error t and loop it until it returns non-nil output (key char)
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2017-02-28T11:25:36Z phoe_: beach: thanks!
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2017-02-28T11:50:07Z jurov: clhs *PACKAGE*
2017-02-28T11:50:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pkg.htm
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2017-02-28T11:51:05Z jurov: can anyone confirm I'm reading the example right - the let form sets current package to sample-package, but still reads *some-symbol* in common-lisp-user ?
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2017-02-28T11:52:01Z jurov: damn no i misread, setq is in the body
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2017-02-28T12:30:36Z phoe_: time for shameless self-promotion
2017-02-28T12:30:40Z phoe_: https://github.com/phoe/clus-data/issues/14
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2017-02-28T12:34:17Z Fare: drmeister, what is step 5?
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2017-02-28T12:34:37Z drmeister Test for a while
2017-02-28T12:35:53Z drmeister: Clasp generates compile time warnings about undefined variables and style warnings for undefined functions.
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2017-02-28T12:40:12Z Fare: drmeister, that's step 5?
2017-02-28T12:41:09Z drmeister: Step 5 is testing.  The thing about compile time warnings was a non-sequitur
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2017-02-28T12:41:40Z Fare: oh, ok. yeah, makes sense. Note that "make t l=clasp" can help you test asdf.
2017-02-28T12:42:02Z Fare: and when you've got that right, there's cl-test-grid
2017-02-28T12:43:54Z Fare: apparently, my SNAPL submission was (1) trying to say too much, and (2) not backed by implementation enough.
2017-02-28T12:44:08Z Fare: so this year, I have to implement the damn thing.
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2017-02-28T12:48:42Z edgar-rft: phoe_: (signal 'thank-you)
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2017-02-28T12:50:18Z phoe_: edgar-rft: <3
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2017-02-28T12:52:07Z edgar-rft: phoe_: There is no thank-you condition specified in ANSI CL. Now it's time to add one!
2017-02-28T12:54:09Z phoe_: edgar-rft: sure thing, file a CLiki issue for adding it to the HFR
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2017-02-28T13:13:48Z Xach: Hmm, what's the sbcl incantation to determine runtime dynamic space size?
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2017-02-28T13:14:57Z ogamita: (define-condition thank-you (condition) ()) (handler-bind ((condition (lambda (c) (invoke-restart (find-restart (class-name (class-of c)) c)))))  (with-simple-restart (thank-you "Thank you!") (signal 'thank-you) 42))
2017-02-28T13:15:17Z beach: (DYNAMIC-SPACE-SIZE)
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2017-02-28T13:16:24Z Xach: Thank you. That is easier than I remember.
2017-02-28T13:17:15Z beach: Xach: It is imported into cl-user, but the origin is SB-EXT.
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2017-02-28T13:22:11Z Xach: I was trying to do arithmetic on sb-ext:dynamic-space-{start,end}
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2017-02-28T14:25:55Z phoe_: haha, the glossary is so fun to edit
2017-02-28T14:26:21Z phoe_: ...or maybe it's just me who has gained enough TeX/DokuWiki/RegEx experience to be able to do it effectively
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2017-02-28T14:28:07Z phoe_: on a side note the sources *are* a goldmine of ponderable things
2017-02-28T14:28:11Z phoe_: \editornote{KMP: Still need to reconcile some confusion in the uses of "generalized reference" and "place." I think one was supposed to refer to the abstract concept, and the other to an object (a form), but the usages have become blurred.}
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2017-02-28T14:35:26Z Xach: arrrgh.
2017-02-28T14:37:44Z drmeister: Does doing:    (ql:quickload :trivial-gray-streams-test)    run the tests?
2017-02-28T14:37:57Z drmeister: Or do I have to evaluate some command to start them
2017-02-28T14:38:04Z Xach: drmeister: I think it depends on the project. my impression is that it doesn't run them in most cases.
2017-02-28T14:38:14Z Xach: drmeister: (asdf:test-system "trivial-gray-streams") might do what you want.
2017-02-28T14:38:18Z Xach: (depends on the system)
2017-02-28T14:38:41Z drmeister: That returned T    - is that good?
2017-02-28T14:38:52Z Xach: I don't know, sorry.
2017-02-28T14:38:58Z drmeister: That sounds good?
2017-02-28T14:39:16Z drmeister: Ok, I'll dig into it - thank you.
2017-02-28T14:40:43Z edgar-rft: ... at least is sounds better than #%$!
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2017-02-28T14:44:08Z jackdaniel: drmeister: run (trivial-gray-streams-test:run-tests)
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2017-02-28T14:54:29Z drmeister: Got it.
2017-02-28T14:54:32Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UO1N307w/
2017-02-28T14:55:14Z drmeister: Two fails.
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2017-02-28T15:41:59Z pebblexe: can anyone help me with this ssl error using dexador? https://gist.github.com/pebblexe/5aae4979637c919eb77e3a9695bfaaad
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2017-02-28T15:57:28Z drmeister: jackdaniel: In ECL, does each thread have it's own generic function cache?
2017-02-28T15:57:36Z drmeister: its
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2017-02-28T16:06:13Z beach: What would be the purpose of such a design?
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2017-02-28T16:20:30Z drmeister: I wasn't thinking of purpose - just does it.  It sounds like it's so ridiculous an idea that it would prompt questions like "What would be the purpose of such a design"
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2017-02-28T16:22:49Z beach: Not necessarily.  I would be interested in knowing the pros and cons of it.
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2017-02-28T16:56:28Z flip214: drmeister: "generic function cache" as in "at that location the most probable calls are (in order) X, Y, Z"?
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2017-02-28T17:08:05Z beach: flip214: More like "a set of signatures that have already been used in a call, and for which I have already calculated their associated effective methods".
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2017-02-28T17:22:54Z phoe: Did ELS just silently updated their Notification of acceptance:
2017-02-28T17:22:56Z phoe: 06 Mar 2017
2017-02-28T17:22:57Z phoe: ?
2017-02-28T17:23:05Z beach: Yes.
2017-02-28T17:23:23Z phoe: I *wish* they at least sent an email about it.
2017-02-28T17:23:25Z beach: Like you, I expected it yesterday, but then went to the site and saw the new date.
2017-02-28T17:23:48Z phoe: God damn it, I'd have sent an important paper today instead of waiting for the damn notification that wasn't coming.
2017-02-28T17:23:58Z beach: I am guessing they are running behind schedule because of the numerous submissions.
2017-02-28T17:24:45Z phoe: Sure, I don't mind it. I mind not notifying the people behind the submissions.
2017-02-28T17:25:30Z beach: You are not supposed to wait around for the notification.  Normally, you should have plenty of time to accommodate the referee remarks (provided your paper was accepted).
2017-02-28T17:26:39Z flip214: phoe: If you'd like a review of the paper (what is it about?), I may be volunteering. beach knows my performance, if you need some second opinion about me.
2017-02-28T17:27:20Z phoe: I don't know if it was accepted or not. That's the thing.
2017-02-28T17:27:46Z phoe: So I don't know what I should write on the paper to my university - whether I'm going as a speaker or an attendee.
2017-02-28T17:27:46Z flip214: well, perhaps you want another independent look anyway, and be it only for next year's try?
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2017-02-28T17:29:06Z phoe: And I have a paper written since I'd like my uni to help me with my plane tickets and so on, since they have a budget for that sort of thing - except I don't know who I am going to be at that conference.
2017-02-28T17:29:10Z phoe: Argh, bureaucracy.
2017-02-28T17:29:33Z phoe: flip214: yes please. I'll make a few final fixes today and send you a link to the paper.
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2017-02-28T17:31:35Z beach: phoe: What do mean by "I don't know who I am going to be at that conference"?  Do you have multiple personalities?
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2017-02-28T17:37:37Z phoe: beach: I mean the role.
2017-02-28T17:38:00Z beach: I see.  I take that to mean that you have already decided to go.
2017-02-28T17:38:02Z phoe: My university might/will have different reactions depending on whether I'm an attendee or I'm a speaker.
2017-02-28T17:38:08Z phoe: Of course I'm going, yes.
2017-02-28T17:38:15Z beach: Excellent!
2017-02-28T17:38:27Z phoe: And I know my university has a budget for supporting people who go to conferences.
2017-02-28T17:38:41Z beach: That would come in handy, yes.
2017-02-28T17:39:40Z phoe: Except now I'm in a limbo - if I write that I'm an attendee while it turns out that I'm a speaker, I'll be missing out on higher rates, but if I write that I'm a speaker while it turns out that I'm an attendee, I'll be lying in formal papers and will need to straighten that out.
2017-02-28T17:39:51Z phoe: So, right now, I'm a Heisenspeaker.
2017-02-28T17:39:56Z dlowe: surely there's a promotion/demotion process
2017-02-28T17:40:24Z phoe: dlowe: what do you mean?
2017-02-28T17:41:37Z beach: phoe: Maybe you could ask the program chair for an advance notice, citing your conundrum.
2017-02-28T17:41:54Z beach: They are humans, after all.
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2017-02-28T17:43:11Z phoe: Well, yes, that's a point. Especially now that they've silently extended the date of notification.
2017-02-28T17:43:14Z phoe: I'll do that in a while.
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2017-02-28T17:48:26Z beach: "Dear Program Chair, I have submitted a paper to ELS (submission number #), and expected the notification of acceptance yesterday.  It was not until today that I noticed that this date has been moved.  I depend on a contribution from my university in order to have the means to travel to ELS, and they need more time to make a decision than there is between the new date and the conference itself.  Would it be possible to obtain a
2017-02-28T17:48:26Z beach: preliminary decision sooner so that I can start this process?"
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2017-02-28T17:49:51Z beach: phoe: The other thing you can do is to start the process, saying you won't know until March 6 whether your paper is accepted or not.
2017-02-28T17:50:04Z beach: That way, they might be able to make a conditional decision.
2017-02-28T17:50:26Z beach: The people making that decision are humans as well.
2017-02-28T17:50:43Z phoe: Yes, I'll do both.
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2017-02-28T17:59:24Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Does anyone here know of a good zeromq library for lisp?
2017-02-28T17:59:49Z fiddlerwoaroof_: I see two or three on quicklisp, but I'm wondering if anyone has nay experience with one of them
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2017-02-28T18:17:41Z pebblexe: hey, how do you convert a string to a simple-string? cl-ppcre says my string fell through, it wanted a simple-string
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2017-02-28T18:23:11Z didi: I want to print a long list prefixed by #\; in every newline. How do I do it? When I eval (format t "~&; ~A" (make-list 42)), format breaks the list with newlines but each newline is not prefixed by a #\;.
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2017-02-28T18:28:00Z sirkmatija_: reposting question, since my internet connection died after posting it last time :/
2017-02-28T18:28:14Z sirkmatija_: Cl-charm get-char function doesn't detect keypresses, unless I hold the key down for longer time or press it multiple times. I have evaled both enable-raw-input and enable-non-blocking-mode. Anybody knows where is the problem? Thanks in advance
2017-02-28T18:28:16Z sirkmatija_: Oh, I also use get-char with :ignore-error t and loop it until it returns non-nil output (key char)
2017-02-28T18:29:22Z phoe: pebblexe: try
2017-02-28T18:29:23Z phoe: clhs coerce
2017-02-28T18:29:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm
2017-02-28T18:29:27Z phoe: maybe it will help
2017-02-28T18:30:06Z pebblexe: actually, it turns out I was handing ("test" "test") to concatenate instead of "test" "test"
2017-02-28T18:31:17Z pjb: didi: (format t "~{; ~A~%~}" '(1 2))
2017-02-28T18:32:01Z pjb: didi: or you may want to use pretty printing and ~<, but I don't know that well enough to tell you exactly how.
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2017-02-28T18:33:30Z didi: pjb: Thank you.
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2017-02-28T18:39:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: Are #'foo (function foo) and (coerce 'foo function) all the same?
2017-02-28T18:40:20Z phoe: Petit_Dejeuner: the first two are effectively the same.
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2017-02-28T18:40:32Z phoe: The third one is more like #'SYMBOL-FUNCTION.
2017-02-28T18:40:39Z phoe: clhs symbol-function
2017-02-28T18:40:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_1.htm
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2017-02-28T18:41:10Z didi: #'foo x (function foo) still alludes me.
2017-02-28T18:41:33Z didi: Rather, passing #'foo x 'foo to functions like MAPCAR.
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2017-02-28T18:42:13Z Bike: passing 'foo to a function like that is short for (symbol-function 'foo)
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2017-02-28T18:42:27Z Bike: which means it does a lookup, in the global environment, at runtime
2017-02-28T18:43:06Z pjb: Petit_Dejeuner: #'foo and (function foo) read as equal forms, if you have the standard #' reader macro bound in the *readtable*,  and  *package* is bound to a package where cl:function is accessible.
2017-02-28T18:44:20Z pebblexe: what are the maximum size/limitations of short-float?
2017-02-28T18:44:32Z didi: Bike: Thank you.
2017-02-28T18:44:39Z Bike: clhs short-float
2017-02-28T18:44:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_short_.htm
2017-02-28T18:44:47Z pjb: maximum is single-float.  Minimum is 5+13
2017-02-28T18:46:03Z jurov: i came up with `',variable to obtain quoted symbol from variable and it works, but it's such a wart, is there more beautiful way to do it?
2017-02-28T18:46:20Z Bike: `(quote ,variable)?
2017-02-28T18:46:24Z Bike: i don't know what you're expecting
2017-02-28T18:47:52Z pjb: Imagine you have it in a bigger form: `(list ',v1 ',v2 ',v3)
2017-02-28T18:48:07Z pjb: `',v alone.
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2017-02-28T18:48:16Z jurov: in this case, it happened to be standalone
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2017-02-28T18:48:48Z mhd: where does emacs decide to have l, lsp, and lisp as its known Lisp extension for automatically putting buffer into lisp mode?
2017-02-28T18:48:56Z jurov: started with (list 'quote var) and end up with this
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2017-02-28T18:49:06Z pjb: mhd: auto-mode-alist
2017-02-28T18:49:48Z jurov: and it felt like perl :)
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2017-02-28T18:51:27Z pjb: `',var ===  (list 'quote var)
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2017-02-28T18:52:50Z varjag: Xach: in skippy, how do i get the actual r,g,b values out of a pixel?
2017-02-28T18:53:10Z didi: I used to think `let' was ripe for parallel computation, until I wrote an evil `let' that would totally break if the value forms are not computed in sequence. Does `let' guarantee the value forms are computed in sequence--I'm not talking about binding the variables--or I just got lucky?
2017-02-28T18:53:17Z Xach: varjag: you look up its index in the palette for the image
2017-02-28T18:53:27Z mhd: @pjb: thank you
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2017-02-28T18:53:49Z pjb: didi: it doesn't.
2017-02-28T18:54:00Z mhd: Handy log: (loop for (x . y) in auto-mode-alist when (eq y 'lisp-mode) collect `(,x . ,y))
2017-02-28T18:54:00Z mhd: (("\\.l\\'" . lisp-mode) ("\\.li?sp\\'" . lisp-mode) ("\\.ml\\'" . lisp-mode) ("\\.asd\\'" . lisp-mode))
2017-02-28T18:54:02Z Xach: varjag: hmm, let me read the manual again...
2017-02-28T18:54:24Z Bike: no, the value forms are computed in sequence
2017-02-28T18:54:29Z pjb: didi: err, it does, but the bindings are performed in parallel.
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2017-02-28T18:54:38Z Xach: varjag: ah yes, it's color-table-entry, which returns a value that can be broken out with color-rgb
2017-02-28T18:54:40Z didi: Oh, OK. Thank you. Then I am safe.
2017-02-28T18:54:45Z pjb: yes.
2017-02-28T18:54:46Z Xach: varjag: so it's index at pixel, then the above
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2017-02-28T18:56:27Z pjb: mhd: or you can put everything in a single regexp (concat "\\." (regexp-opt '("l" "lsp" "lisp" "asd"  "ml")) "$") --> "\\.\\(?:asd\\|l\\(?:i?sp\\)?\\|ml\\)$"
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2017-02-28T19:02:25Z varjag: Xach: so (rgb-color (color-table-entry (color-table image) (pixel-ref image x y)))?
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2017-02-28T19:02:58Z varjag: er (color-talbe datastream) that is
2017-02-28T19:03:25Z varjag: oh pixel-ref operates on the canvas
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2017-02-28T19:05:05Z mhd: @pjb, I guess ACL users emacs init files all contain (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.cl\\'" . lisp-mode))
2017-02-28T19:06:10Z pjb: mhd: <- irc; Everybody, since there are free software acl libraries. You may find some in quicklisp.
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2017-02-28T19:07:44Z mhd: thank you
2017-02-28T19:08:59Z varjag: right, it's a superclass
2017-02-28T19:09:07Z varjag: Xach: ok thanks
2017-02-28T19:10:12Z varjag: adding animated gif playback into the video player
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2017-02-28T19:14:47Z Xach: woo
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2017-02-28T19:28:13Z drmeister: Longshot question: Are there any of the trivial-gray-streams developers online?
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2017-02-28T19:28:31Z drmeister: I've spent a couple of hours trying to track down what this means and what might be wrong:    #<TEST-RESULT GRAY::STREAM-READ-LINE :FAIL Unexpected end of file on #<TRIVIAL-GRAY-STREAMS-TEST::TEST-STREAM>.>
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2017-02-28T19:29:38Z drmeister: This is what is failing:
2017-02-28T19:29:39Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/NLvRfGGk/
2017-02-28T19:30:14Z drmeister: I think it means that (read-line s) is not invoking gray:stream-read-line
2017-02-28T19:32:34Z drmeister: That's what it does in ECL
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2017-02-28T19:33:35Z drmeister: But the ECL source code doesn't bind the READ-LINE symbol to anything - I don't see how it could invoke GRAY::STREAM-READ-LINE
2017-02-28T19:35:21Z drmeister: Ahhh, I see - the ECL C function read_line redirects to gray:stream-read-line
2017-02-28T19:35:49Z drmeister: That's easy enough to fix
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2017-02-28T20:10:00Z flip214: phoe: ack, thanks in advance.
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2017-02-28T20:13:25Z phoe: flip214: I got busy - I might do it tomorrow.
2017-02-28T20:14:33Z flip214: phoe: no need to hurry. I can keep busy really easily!   ;P
2017-02-28T20:15:40Z varjag: Xach: is there a way to force update-all-dists anew?
2017-02-28T20:15:48Z varjag: the laptop suspended in the middle of upadte
2017-02-28T20:15:57Z varjag: don't think it fetched all
2017-02-28T20:16:08Z varjag: but now it tells me am already on the latest
2017-02-28T20:16:15Z Xach: varjag: it really only needs to fetch the small metadata files. everything after that will be fetched on demand.
2017-02-28T20:16:32Z Xach: varjag: as a courtesy, it updates whatever you had installed already, but if it stops partway, it will just get them when needed.
2017-02-28T20:17:58Z Xach: there may be problems fetching things now because of an ongoing amazon problem.
2017-02-28T20:18:02Z Xach: it is not limited to quicklisp
2017-02-28T20:19:54Z varjag: oh good then
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2017-02-28T20:35:06Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Xach: is there a way to get a quicklisp system's source repository without quickloading it?
2017-02-28T20:35:13Z fiddlerwoaroof_: That is, get the URL of...
2017-02-28T20:35:17Z Xof: ym: do you have a src/runtime/sbcl binary?
2017-02-28T20:35:32Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: it is in the quicklisp-projects repo
2017-02-28T20:35:32Z Xof: ym: "ELF: not found" sounds like something pretty broken to me
2017-02-28T20:35:57Z fiddlerwoaroof_: But, there's no way to do this from quicklisp itself?
2017-02-28T20:35:58Z fiddlerwoaroof_: ok
2017-02-28T20:37:08Z fiddlerwoaroof_: ym: that error messages sounds a bit like openbsd is treating your executable like a shell script
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2017-02-28T20:37:45Z fiddlerwoaroof_: At least on linux, ELF executables begin 0x7F ELF
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2017-02-28T20:46:39Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: soon (hopefully)
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2017-02-28T20:59:04Z fiddlerwoaroof_: cool, thanks for all the work on quicklisp
2017-02-28T20:59:25Z fiddlerwoaroof_: does the client validate SSL certificates yet?
2017-02-28T21:01:31Z Xach: the client will likely never validate ssl certificates. it *will* verify cryptographic signatures very soon.
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2017-02-28T21:02:27Z Xach: i have all the code to do the work done, but it must be integrated with the current dist setup.
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2017-02-28T21:24:12Z fiddlerwoaroof_: Will you be distributing some kind of public key with the client?
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2017-02-28T21:25:40Z Xach: fiddlerwoaroof_: yes.
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2017-02-28T21:26:05Z Xach: it will be an openpgp public key. it will be embedded in the bootstrap file, which is available via https.
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2017-02-28T21:26:26Z Xach: the goal is that everything the bootstrap and client does can be verified by other tools.
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2017-02-28T21:30:12Z jackdaniel: drmeister: it is used only for thread safety (concurrent access), see src/c/gfun.d (esp comments)
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2017-02-28T21:32:42Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Thank you.
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2017-02-28T21:35:51Z phoe: holy cow
2017-02-28T21:35:59Z phoe: Lisp *is* the HTTP hacker's language
2017-02-28T21:36:21Z jfb4: phoe:why?
2017-02-28T21:36:30Z phoe: I hacked up a data fetcher from one website with logging in and cookies in an hour
2017-02-28T21:36:36Z phoe: it seemed way too complicated at first
2017-02-28T21:36:46Z phoe: but drakma is really solid.
2017-02-28T21:37:56Z TruePika: wow my network has latency right now
2017-02-28T21:39:14Z TruePika is debating about the best way to update PLANE objects
2017-02-28T21:39:37Z TruePika: especially since they can "disappear" (read: leave the world of atc(6))
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2017-02-28T21:40:37Z TruePika: It should be possible to detect their disappearance, but my plans involved part of the bot having a helper around each PLANE, to simulate TCAS
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2017-02-28T21:41:25Z TruePika: so I'd need a way for the object to flag that situation
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2017-02-28T21:42:53Z TruePika: I'd probably do something akin to a reinitialization to a dummy class which issues a condition
2017-02-28T21:43:07Z TruePika: though I don't know if that's messy or not
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2017-02-28T21:56:33Z TruePika: hm, how should I store the list of planes?
2017-02-28T21:56:51Z TruePika: alist or hash-table?
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2017-02-28T21:57:47Z TruePika: hash test would need to be equalp, but there will only ever be up to 26 planes in the world
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2017-02-28T21:58:43Z TruePika: though, I'd theoretically not need to use an alist (just a regular list), on second thought
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2017-02-28T21:59:08Z TruePika: ...I _could_ just use a (VECTOR (OR NULL PLANE)), now that I think about it
2017-02-28T21:59:31Z TruePika: ** (VECTOR (OR NULL PLANE) 26)
2017-02-28T22:01:06Z TruePika: I'll probably just start with a list, since they're flexible
2017-02-28T22:01:18Z TruePika: slow working code > fast broken code
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2017-02-28T22:03:44Z TruePika: INITIALIZE-INSTANCE only runs once ever per instance, right?
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2017-02-28T22:04:17Z dim: I guess you can call it yourself, and I can't remember about change-class
2017-02-28T22:04:22Z dim: ,clhs change-class
2017-02-28T22:04:29Z X-Scale: http://www.cl-http.org:8002/lispdocuments/draft-proposed-ANSI-Common-Lisp.pdf seems to be gone. Any idea where one can find it now ?
2017-02-28T22:05:01Z TruePika: have you tried ports 8000 or 80?
2017-02-28T22:05:16Z TruePika: or is the host itself gone?
2017-02-28T22:05:21Z akkad hunts for a freelancer to do some sbcl memory tweaking on an opensource app
2017-02-28T22:05:37Z X-Scale: I have ... and still no luck. The domain is still there though.
2017-02-28T22:05:54Z Xach: X-Scale: what did you hope to do with that document if you got it?
2017-02-28T22:06:20Z dim: akkad: have you tried with Clozure-CL first?
2017-02-28T22:06:46Z dim: the difference I see with pgloader is really impressive
2017-02-28T22:07:35Z X-Scale: Xach: it starts by being of great historical value for the LISP community
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2017-02-28T22:10:10Z X-Scale: I guess I've found a similar document -> ftp://linux4u.jinr.ru/pub/misc/symbolic/lisp/dpANS3/book.pdf
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2017-02-28T22:10:13Z Xach: X-Scale: ok. the source material from which it is derived is freely available and widely copied.
2017-02-28T22:10:38Z akkad: dim: yeap. acl/lw/ccl and ccl does great on memory, but not so great on perf.
2017-02-28T22:11:28Z dim: in general that's very true
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2017-02-28T22:11:56Z dim: in the case of pgloader the perf impact is quite small, when measurable, because it's all IO bounded (network and disks) anyway
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2017-02-28T22:14:22Z X-Scale: Xach: thanks
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2017-02-28T22:39:55Z fiddlerwoaroof_: phoe: yeah, lisp is surprisingly versatile for web programming, despite the somewhat low-level apis it provides for string manipulation
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2017-02-28T22:49:11Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof_: and you can use libraries for string manipulation.  cl-ppcre, etc.
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2017-02-28T22:52:10Z fiddlerwoaroof_: That's true, I generally find that the various string manipulation libraries don't fit together very well and don't have some options that are useful.  I.e. split-sequence takes a count argument, but that determines the number of split fields returned, not the number of splits made.
2017-02-28T22:52:41Z fiddlerwoaroof_: In Python, it's really useful that 'a b c d'.split(' ',3) returns ['a','b','c d']
2017-02-28T22:53:13Z fiddlerwoaroof_: On the other hand, lisp makes it really easy to fill in the gaps, in a way that few other languages do
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2017-02-28T23:01:13Z TruePika: meh
2017-02-28T23:01:42Z TruePika: unable to optimize because: could not optimize away %SAP-ALIEN: forced to do runtime allocation of alien-value structure
2017-02-28T23:02:14Z TruePika: this is from (SB-ALIEN:ADDR POLLFD)
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2017-02-28T23:21:55Z TruePika: yeah, that's the only issue I can see right now
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2017-02-28T23:23:44Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: (split-sequence:split-sequence #\space "a b c d" :count 2) #| --> ("a" "b") ; 4 |#
2017-02-28T23:25:06Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: (let ((string "a b c d") (n 3)) (multiple-value-bind (splitted next) (split-sequence:split-sequence #\space string  :count (- n 1)) (append splitted (list (subseq string next))))) #| --> ("a" "b" "c d") |#
2017-02-28T23:26:32Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: I'm not denying that it's easy to write your own, I'm just saying that all these little things introduce friction into the sorts of string processing I frequently do
2017-02-28T23:26:37Z TruePika: I mean, theoretically, the "structure" I'm using ADDR with can be stack allocated
2017-02-28T23:26:57Z TruePika: (in fact, it _should_ be, though I can't force dynamic-extent)
2017-02-28T23:27:12Z pjb: fiddlerwoaroof: I agree. That's why you build up your own library.  Or you may design a consistent string processing library.
2017-02-28T23:27:15Z fiddlerwoaroof: Lately, I've found a #{} reader macro that mirrors Clojure's #() macro for defining functions is useful
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2017-02-28T23:27:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: defining anonymus functions, that is
2017-02-28T23:27:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: pjb: yeah, I've had that on my list of things to be done for a while.
2017-02-28T23:28:13Z TruePika: but I'm most worried because the form being complained about is almost part of SBCL
2017-02-28T23:28:16Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'd have to spend a bit of time reviewing the sorts of things I need
2017-02-28T23:28:27Z pjb: I hear there are nice string processing features in TCL and in SNOBOL…
2017-02-28T23:29:01Z TruePika: pjb: and sed
2017-02-28T23:29:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: Tcl would make sense because macros there are essentially string transformations
2017-02-28T23:29:54Z TruePika used META yesterday for parsing the ATC map files
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2017-02-28T23:30:57Z TruePika: hm, /me goes back to fighting with SBCL
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2017-02-28T23:39:58Z TruePika: hm? /me is looking at SBCL internals right now, maybe the ADDR isn't needed...?
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2017-02-28T23:42:41Z TruePika: okay, it isn't the ADDR causing it
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2017-02-28T23:46:34Z TruePika: http://pastebin.ca/3774183 is the source giving the optimization note
2017-02-28T23:46:42Z TruePika: well, snippet of source
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2017-02-28T23:48:26Z Bike: the docstring says with-alien has its own thing for dxing? is that relevant?
2017-02-28T23:49:09Z TruePika: I don't know
2017-02-28T23:49:22Z TruePika: Updated paste with compiler output   http://pastebin.ca/3774186
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2017-02-28T23:54:54Z TruePika: Bike: should be on the stack with dynamic extent, since that's the default
2017-02-28T23:55:13Z Bike: yeah
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2017-02-28T23:55:27Z Bike: maybe the runtime allocation doesn't even mean a heap allocation
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2017-02-28T23:56:43Z TruePika: what would %SAP-ALIEN be doing?
2017-02-28T23:56:52Z theethicalegoist: I'm trying out the slime plugin for the atom ide. It's pretty sweet.
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