2016-05-01T00:00:14Z John[Lisbeth]: Have you ever used scheme or any other lisp? 2016-05-01T00:00:14Z MrrTrump: I see a little of wha tlispers are talking about when I go n try learning other langs and the ugliness 2016-05-01T00:00:26Z MrrTrump: a little 2016-05-01T00:00:29Z MrrTrump: chicken scheme 2016-05-01T00:00:43Z John[Lisbeth]: Common lisp solves the ugliness to a large degree. 2016-05-01T00:01:11Z John[Lisbeth]: It is in a sense mathematicall proven that lisp can pick up any sort of thing that other languages invent. 2016-05-01T00:01:19Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:02:14Z rszeno: what proof? 2016-05-01T00:02:27Z dongz: lisp is sublime 2016-05-01T00:02:46Z John[Lisbeth]: based on a vision I had in a dream with an alien there dude, so it was legit. Just kidding that is only my impression based on waht I have read and I have no sources. 2016-05-01T00:03:07Z John[Lisbeth]: As far as I understand, lisp can do anything any other language can do. 2016-05-01T00:03:08Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-01T00:04:23Z rszeno: try package managment 2016-05-01T00:05:31Z dongz: i once spent an acid trip with a LISP book 2016-05-01T00:05:38Z dongz: it was time well spent 2016-05-01T00:05:53Z John[Lisbeth]: Like, zoiks, man 2016-05-01T00:06:27Z dongz: interestingly -- korean and japanese grammar are kinda similar to lisp's syntax 2016-05-01T00:06:42Z dongz: they're postfix notation, so to speak 2016-05-01T00:07:39Z John[Lisbeth]: First I (defparameter *foo* (list t t)) 2016-05-01T00:08:10Z John[Lisbeth]: then I (defvar *foo* 5) 2016-05-01T00:08:45Z John[Lisbeth]: *foo* => (T T) 2016-05-01T00:09:36Z fourier` joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:10:51Z John[Lisbeth]: just following along in land of lisp 2016-05-01T00:11:19Z John[Lisbeth]: shouldn't *foo* change to 5? 2016-05-01T00:11:37Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: DEFVAR has effect only when the variable is unbound. 2016-05-01T00:11:44Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: DEFPARAMETER has effect always. 2016-05-01T00:12:04Z John[Lisbeth]: so defvar has no side effects? 2016-05-01T00:12:40Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: it does have side effects. if the variable is unbound, it makes it bound with the given value. 2016-05-01T00:12:48Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: if it is bound, it does nothing. 2016-05-01T00:13:10Z Xach: it makes the variable name special 2016-05-01T00:14:27Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T00:20:51Z Jesin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T00:22:41Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:24:22Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:34:33Z kokonaisluku joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:35:24Z wildlander quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T00:36:46Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:38:45Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:43:46Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-01T00:53:29Z circ-user-Itmlh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T00:53:43Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-01T00:56:41Z kokonaisluku quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 45.1.0/20160426211446]) 2016-05-01T00:58:08Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-01T01:00:57Z Cxcf: How do I know what to put in the documentation string and what to write as comments? In Java I would just write everything in the comments. I'm unfamiliar with the advantage of a documentation string. 2016-05-01T01:01:06Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T01:04:09Z znc-admi- joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:04:21Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:05:38Z warweasle: I've never been very good with debuggers. Does slime have debugger where I can step through the code, expression by expression? 2016-05-01T01:05:58Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:06:29Z Xach: warweasle: not in sbcl 2016-05-01T01:07:06Z Xach: Cxcf: i like to treat documentation strings as for a developer reading to get an idea of expectations for a function or variable, and comments as explaining specific mechanics of implementation. 2016-05-01T01:07:12Z warweasle: Xach: Ok. Thanks. I mean a debugger may not make a lot of sense. 2016-05-01T01:07:24Z warweasle: Xach: Considering macros. 2016-05-01T01:07:48Z Xach: warweasle: i think it's just a shortcoming of sbcl and slime and free tools in general. i believe LW and allegro can do it. 2016-05-01T01:08:12Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:08:12Z Baggers left #lisp 2016-05-01T01:08:46Z Cxcf: Xach: Thanks:) Document string is TL;DR, and comments are the mechanics 2016-05-01T01:16:15Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T01:17:44Z linuxuser9000 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T01:24:07Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:26:45Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:27:27Z circ-user-Itmlh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:28:07Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:29:29Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T01:34:56Z znc-admi- is now known as linuxuser9000 2016-05-01T01:37:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T01:37:53Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:38:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T01:38:04Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-01T01:38:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T01:49:11Z cromulent left #lisp 2016-05-01T01:51:09Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:03:46Z monoda quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-01T02:15:12Z agidyne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:17:20Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T02:18:31Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:18:52Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:22:16Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T02:26:06Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:26:28Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:28:20Z s6kalra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T02:28:39Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:31:10Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T02:31:31Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:34:21Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T02:35:03Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:36:51Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:37:30Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T02:40:21Z warweasle: Is there an in-place version of remove-if. Particularly for alists. 2016-05-01T02:40:24Z warweasle: ? 2016-05-01T02:42:43Z katco: how does the community feel about loop vs. iterate? 2016-05-01T02:44:01Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T02:45:21Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:46:31Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T02:46:35Z agidyne: iterate looks nifty but I don't add new external packages to my code if not 100% absolutely necessary so I just use loop anyway 2016-05-01T02:47:34Z katco: agidyne: interesting. is that just to reduce the # of moving parts? 2016-05-01T02:49:26Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T02:49:49Z agidyne: just a personal preference based on a pet peeve rather than anything based on principle. I don't want to use a package once because I'll use this package once, that package once, etc... a year later my repository is full of dozens of stuff I don't feel like picking through and determining which ones to houseclean 2016-05-01T02:50:10Z katco: agidyne: makes sense 2016-05-01T02:50:24Z agidyne: i just have packages I consistently use across projects. opengl, sdl, etc. 2016-05-01T02:50:30Z agidyne: that's it 2016-05-01T02:51:12Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:51:15Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T02:53:41Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T02:54:00Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:54:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:56:07Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T02:57:58Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:58:49Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T02:59:07Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T02:59:10Z gluytium joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:00:42Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T03:01:07Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:03:11Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T03:03:27Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T03:03:44Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:06:06Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:11:39Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T03:12:22Z edgar-rft: katko: In the special case of LOOP vs ITERATE the advantage of LOOP is that it's part of the CL standard and can be assumed to work without problems on every CL implementation. The disadvantage of LOOP is that it's not allowed by the CL standard to write your own LOOP extensions if the built-in LOOP clauses can't fulfill your needs, while ITERATE in contrast allows and encourages user-specific extensions. 2016-05-01T03:12:22Z edgar-rft: My own experience is that if a iteration construct becomes so complicated that it cannot be solved with built-in LOOP clauses anymore, then in most cases it was best to write my own iteration constructs using built-in CL functions instead of pulling in a library like ITERATE what always can cause its own problems when running under different CL implementations. 2016-05-01T03:12:23Z edgar-rft: For me it's usually easier to find bugs in my own code than in library code written by other people. This doesn't mean that I think that my code is better than LOOP or ITERATE, it's only that it's easier for me to find bugs produced by me myself. 2016-05-01T03:23:02Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:24:43Z Cxcf: Is it good coding practice for lisp to put struct definitions in a separate file and include it? 2016-05-01T03:27:23Z Cxcf` left #lisp 2016-05-01T03:27:29Z Cxcf quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T03:28:03Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:29:27Z Cxcf: Ok, I had something funky going on with erc. Anyway, if the question didn't go through, is it good coding practice in lisp to place struct definitions in a separate file and somehow include them? 2016-05-01T03:30:07Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-01T03:30:13Z dto joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:32:45Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:34:16Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-01T03:34:16Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-01T03:34:19Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:36:26Z Bike: i don't think there's any need to do that 2016-05-01T03:37:56Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T03:40:12Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T03:43:20Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T03:44:46Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-01T03:45:28Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:46:08Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:47:45Z brh quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-01T03:47:53Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0/20160421124000]) 2016-05-01T03:48:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T03:48:51Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:54:53Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:56:58Z Cxcf: gotcha, just wondering. I have about 8 and it looks a lil cluttered to me:/ 2016-05-01T03:59:08Z augustomna2010 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T03:59:47Z yrdz` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T03:59:53Z asc232 quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-01T04:00:23Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:05:06Z yrdz` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T04:05:22Z dto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T04:05:45Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:06:37Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-01T04:08:37Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:13:34Z augustomna2010 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T04:16:11Z shikhin is now known as yt 2016-05-01T04:16:15Z yt is now known as shikhin 2016-05-01T04:17:04Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T04:17:21Z augustomna2010 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:17:51Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:18:34Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T04:23:58Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:28:38Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T04:33:04Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-01T04:40:11Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-01T04:45:38Z razieliyo quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T04:48:24Z LiamH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T04:48:47Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T04:55:24Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T04:57:26Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:06:42Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:08:24Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-05-01T05:09:43Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:12:02Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T05:12:58Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:13:36Z clique left #lisp 2016-05-01T05:14:58Z MrrTrump: can lisp replace hadoop for big data analystics? 2016-05-01T05:16:37Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T05:17:24Z p_l: MrrTrump: lisp is a language, hadoop is a piece of infrastructure, they are wildly different things. You can use Common Lisp under Hadoop to do analytics, though ;) 2016-05-01T05:27:51Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:28:38Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-01T05:30:09Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:30:35Z eazar001 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T05:30:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:33:50Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:35:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:38:28Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:40:11Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:41:31Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:43:27Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T05:44:30Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:47:03Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:49:45Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T05:50:47Z Cxcf: are structs allowed to have the same slot names? 2016-05-01T05:51:04Z Cxcf: I mean, can multiple structs have the same slot names? 2016-05-01T05:52:59Z White_Flame: you mean (defstruct foo a b c) (defstruct bar a b c)? sure 2016-05-01T05:53:25Z White_Flame: the accessors would be, by default, (foo-a x) and (bar-a x) 2016-05-01T05:56:16Z MrrTrump quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T05:56:45Z s6kalra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T05:58:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T05:59:23Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-05-01T06:00:40Z Cxcf: Ah, I found the error 2016-05-01T06:00:52Z Cxcf: I was using the same name in one class. Thanks White_Flame 2016-05-01T06:05:08Z White_Flame: The accessors created by defclass are methods, so they can overload. The accessors generated by defstruct are functions, so they need to be unique 2016-05-01T06:05:27Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-01T06:05:44Z White_Flame: if you didn't catch it: The accessors created by defclass are methods, so they can overload. 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Do you have a recommended coding environment? like emacs or vim? 2016-05-01T08:39:45Z jdtest joined #lisp 2016-05-01T08:46:15Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-01T08:50:31Z schaueho joined #lisp 2016-05-01T08:51:00Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-01T08:51:23Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-01T08:52:12Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-01T08:53:00Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-01T08:54:55Z edgar-rft: linuxuser9000: For Common Lisp it's usually Emacs+ Slime, see and 2016-05-01T08:55:09Z linuxuser9000: Thanks! 2016-05-01T08:56:26Z s6kalra quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T09:03:33Z jdtest quit (Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org) 2016-05-01T09:21:01Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:23:28Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:23:32Z Secretmapper joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:25:21Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-01T09:28:34Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-01T09:29:28Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:30:21Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T09:39:21Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T09:40:43Z yh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:40:53Z yh quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T09:43:28Z yh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:45:09Z yh quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T09:48:16Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:51:04Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T09:52:46Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T09:54:00Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:03:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:04:03Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:05:03Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:06:39Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:12:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:14:29Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:18:03Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:19:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:20:24Z cabaire joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:23:21Z otwieracz quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:28:00Z eazar001 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T10:29:27Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:32:08Z phoe_krk: Can anyone tell me an example RL usage of MAPLIST? I can't find any off the top of my head. 2016-05-01T10:36:05Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:38:38Z kami joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:38:55Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:39:59Z kami: Hello #lisp 2016-05-01T10:40:32Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-01T10:42:44Z phoe_krk: Hey kami 2016-05-01T10:42:47Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T10:46:56Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T10:52:24Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T10:53:39Z cabaire quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T11:02:21Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:06:01Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:08:26Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T11:09:46Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: AFAIK MAPCAR is build on top of MAPLIST, what means that MAPLIST is older than MAPCAR, and MAPLIST still exists for backward compatibility reasons. 2016-05-01T11:09:48Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:10:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:12:14Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:13:01Z White_Flame: MAPLIST can be used if you want to test if 2 adjacent elements are equal, or whatever 2016-05-01T11:13:37Z White_Flame: basically any iterative operation that has to look at more elements than just the current one 2016-05-01T11:18:45Z augustomna2010 quit 2016-05-01T11:22:20Z phoe_krk: Yes, I thought about this just before you typed it, White_Flame 2016-05-01T11:24:29Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:29:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:30:34Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T11:30:56Z phoe_krk: What's the Lisp predicate opposite to #'NULL? 2016-05-01T11:31:29Z phoe_krk: I'd like (some #'true '(nil nil nil nil nil 2 nil "" nil t)) to return T 2016-05-01T11:31:39Z White_Flame: #"identity 2016-05-01T11:31:55Z phoe_krk: Thanks! 2016-05-01T11:32:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T11:33:00Z bege quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T11:35:04Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:43:32Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:47:49Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:47:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:52:57Z edgar-rft quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:53:28Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:53:49Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T11:54:46Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:56:22Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:58:15Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T11:58:18Z shlomo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T11:58:54Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:00:34Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:03:17Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:03:38Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:08:13Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:09:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:12:49Z monoda joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:14:35Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:15:04Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:15:12Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:27:30Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:29:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T12:29:34Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:36:47Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:41:38Z pseudo-sue joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:47:21Z monoda quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-01T12:50:06Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:51:50Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-01T12:53:14Z myrkraverk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T12:53:50Z myrkraverk joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:03:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:05:58Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:07:05Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:12:54Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-01T13:12:54Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-01T13:16:03Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:16:25Z clique left #lisp 2016-05-01T13:21:33Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:29:10Z Jonsky: Just installed Slime with quicklisp, simple and awesome! Thanks!! 2016-05-01T13:30:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:35:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:36:28Z wooden__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:39:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:43:54Z pseudo-sue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:45:52Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:46:48Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:47:44Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:47:52Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:47:57Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:49:08Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:49:49Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T13:51:07Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:51:35Z mejja joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:55:15Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:55:28Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:56:52Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:56:54Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-01T13:57:08Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:58:30Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:58:41Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T13:59:28Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:04:22Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:05:22Z jmayerz joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:10:33Z pseudo-sue joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:10:36Z jmayerz quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-01T14:14:38Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-05-01T14:24:41Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T14:25:31Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:27:14Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:31:04Z Baggers quit (Quit: heading oot) 2016-05-01T14:31:59Z pseudo-sue quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T14:32:09Z l04m33 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T14:32:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:34:22Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T14:37:44Z attila_lendvai: Bourne: scheme's tend to be simpler, if you pick scheme I suggest racket. but then common lisps are more about practical apps, so approaching them may be easier (more google results, etc) 2016-05-01T14:38:34Z pseudo-sue joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:38:55Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2016-05-01T14:39:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T14:41:08Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:46:42Z engblom joined #lisp 2016-05-01T14:48:33Z pseudo-sue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T14:49:22Z engblom: I have very good results with using Vim together with Clojure. Now I would want to a bit play with Common Lisp, but I have difficulties to find a good setup for Vim. Is anyone here using Vim and could help me to set things up? 2016-05-01T15:01:52Z kami quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T15:02:55Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:03:20Z isoraqathedh: Slimv should be what you're looking for. 2016-05-01T15:03:51Z engblom: isoraqathedh: Thanks, I will look into slimv 2016-05-01T15:04:25Z isoraqathedh: It also plays well with Clojure and Scheme. 2016-05-01T15:05:51Z engblom: isoraqathedh: The latest release seem to be from 2013. Is it dead or just "complete"? 2016-05-01T15:06:18Z isoraqathedh: Not quite sure. 2016-05-01T15:06:39Z isoraqathedh: I don't use Vim so I can't vouch for Slimv's completeness. 2016-05-01T15:06:47Z engblom: Ah, ok 2016-05-01T15:09:10Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:15:46Z phoe_krk: I need to make a series of videos on setting Emacs up and getting anyhow used to it. 2016-05-01T15:16:44Z phoe_krk: It's one of the first steps that kicks people out of CL, the fact they don't know how to utilize Emacs and a great majority of the CL community uses it, so there's hardly anyone to help with the alternatives. 2016-05-01T15:18:22Z engblom: phoe_krk: I have used emacs in the past. I even used Erc as my irc client for some time. Regradless of how many times I have used nothing else than emacs for longer time, I never really liked emacs. 2016-05-01T15:20:09Z engblom: phoe_krk: What has earlier been putting me off from CL is the lack of good tools. Clojure got one easy to use tool that does all needed things (setting up a connectable REPL, loading dependencies from Internet, building the app, etc etc) 2016-05-01T15:20:45Z engblom: I am sure lein is one of the reasons people get easily into Clojure 2016-05-01T15:22:33Z phoe_krk: engblom: CL lacks such a tool. Aside from Emacs which has a fairly terrible learning curve. 2016-05-01T15:24:26Z engblom: Yep, setting up a good environment for CL development is not straightforward unless you know what you need and how to set it up. 2016-05-01T15:26:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:26:45Z engblom: I do not think CL need as much an Emacs tutorial as it needs a very good tutorial about all the tools like quicklisp, asdf etc 2016-05-01T15:29:00Z phoe_krk: engblom: oh, it does need a tutorial that shows how to effectively develop in Lisp. And, whether any of us likes it or not, it's going to be 75% about Emacs because the amount of material needed to learn is the highest in this place. 2016-05-01T15:29:47Z Jonsky: irc helped me a lot. Earlier today I saw a vider demonstating how to install things using asdf-install and then I found that someone here mentioned that it is superseded by quicklisp. 2016-05-01T15:31:42Z engblom: If I would take as first project to reimplement a gpio library I made for CLojure, I would need a way to react immediatelly when a file has changed and I would not want busy waiting. Does CL have any ready library for this? With Clojure I took advantage of the JVM platform it is running on by using the java WatchService 2016-05-01T15:31:51Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:32:34Z ecraven: cl-inotify for linuxen? 2016-05-01T15:32:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T15:32:54Z ecraven: though as far as I know inotify won't work for NFS for example 2016-05-01T15:33:40Z engblom: ecraven: if it works for /sys/* it is good enough for me 2016-05-01T15:34:06Z ecraven: then check for something that wraps inotify, I think that might work :) 2016-05-01T15:35:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:36:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T15:36:23Z sigjuice: (ql:system-apropos "notify") says cl-fsnotify-20150302-git, cl-inotify-20130420-git, inotify-20150608-git. There may be others. 2016-05-01T15:37:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T15:37:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:39:31Z pseudo-sue joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:42:00Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:43:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:44:13Z pseudo-sue quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T15:46:08Z warweasle: Is there a setf-able find? 2016-05-01T15:46:59Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:48:17Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T15:48:21Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-01T15:49:20Z Bike: no. maybe you want substitute? 2016-05-01T15:49:41Z warweasle: Bike: Will that work with the first item in a list? 2016-05-01T15:50:06Z Bike: yes 2016-05-01T15:58:58Z warweasle: Bike: Thanks. 2016-05-01T15:59:05Z katco: edgar-rft: thanks for the opinion. that makes a lot of sense 2016-05-01T16:00:37Z fiveop quit 2016-05-01T16:09:20Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T16:11:20Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:25:21Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:28:03Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:28:37Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T16:32:06Z oleo: why does #!/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script (print "hello there") require a (terpri) whereas in the repl it doesn't ? 2016-05-01T16:32:29Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T16:33:08Z warweasle quit (Quit: After baptism party! Woo!) 2016-05-01T16:35:02Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:35:39Z Xach: oleo: i'd guess the repl has a fresh-line in it. 2016-05-01T16:35:41Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:36:48Z sjl__ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2016-05-01T16:37:02Z oleo: i thought print is guarenteed to gimme a newline ....... 2016-05-01T16:38:40Z Xach: oleo: it does. at the beginning. 2016-05-01T16:39:13Z pjb: oleo: Also, your script is wrong, because you didn't flush the output. 2016-05-01T16:40:25Z pjb: oleo: there's write-line for a reason too: #!/usr/local/bin/sbcl --script (write-line "hello there") (finish-output) 2016-05-01T16:40:56Z Jonsky: is there anyway it import a package and pick a nickname for it ? Like (import xxxx as yy) in other langauges? 2016-05-01T16:41:07Z Xach: Jonsky: no. 2016-05-01T16:41:08Z pjb: Jonsky: you can use add-nicknames. 2016-05-01T16:41:35Z pjb: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.package:add-nickname 2016-05-01T16:42:10Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-01T16:42:20Z Jonsky: oh, thanks! 2016-05-01T16:43:33Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:43:55Z rpg is now known as Guest10336 2016-05-01T16:44:21Z Jonsky: steal and force? nice keys! 2016-05-01T16:45:25Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:45:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T16:46:36Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:46:56Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:47:17Z oleo: print is just like prin1 except that the printed representation of object is preceded by a newline and followed by a space. 2016-05-01T16:47:18Z oleo: ok 2016-05-01T16:47:31Z oleo: preceded* 2016-05-01T16:47:34Z oleo: meh 2016-05-01T16:49:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T16:52:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-01T16:59:49Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-01T17:00:11Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:00:18Z Jonsky: Aha, so the trick is to use RENAME-PACKAGE carefully with a tempname. Nice! 2016-05-01T17:00:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:01:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:03:28Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-01T17:03:28Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-01T17:07:58Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T17:08:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:08:42Z azamkala joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:09:58Z circ-user-Itmlh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T17:10:01Z circ-user-Aj5bb joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:10:03Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-01T17:10:03Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:11:27Z pyx joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:11:35Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T17:14:07Z Guest10336 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:16:06Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:18:35Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:20:14Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:23:54Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:30:34Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:32:36Z monoda joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:32:59Z davsebamse quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T17:42:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:42:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:45:10Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:45:24Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T17:46:30Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:51:36Z pseudo-sue joined #lisp 2016-05-01T17:54:48Z phoe_krk: Jonsky: there's also pseudonyms that are somewhat tricky, but are completely non-destructive. 2016-05-01T17:55:04Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-01T17:55:21Z phoe_krk: Also: https://github.com/fare/package-renaming as someone pointed out to me. 2016-05-01T17:55:23Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:10:03Z engblom: In clojure I can do (source what-ever-function-or-macro) and (doc what-ever-function-or-macro). Are there equivalents in CL? 2016-05-01T18:10:04Z phoe_krk: What's the easiest way to be able to run multiple SLIME REPLs on a single Lisp image? 2016-05-01T18:10:34Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T18:11:50Z shka: phoe_krk: slime-connect to the swank server 2016-05-01T18:12:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T18:13:06Z phoe_krk: shka: yes, but without the manual starting of a swank server. 2016-05-01T18:13:25Z shka: hmmm 2016-05-01T18:13:40Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:14:04Z augustomna2010 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:14:10Z phoe_krk: This sounds like some elisp work. 2016-05-01T18:15:36Z shka: yeah 2016-05-01T18:17:14Z pseudo-s1e joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:17:32Z shka: it kinda looks like slime is using dynamic variable to store it's connection 2016-05-01T18:17:43Z shka: so it may be non-trivial task 2016-05-01T18:18:15Z shka: i would start few separate emacs sessions and connect it to the single swank server 2016-05-01T18:18:19Z shka: should be easier 2016-05-01T18:20:10Z gluytium quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-01T18:20:24Z pseudo-sue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:20:49Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-01T18:23:45Z drewc_ca joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:25:25Z PuercoPop: engblom: for doc, yes (documentation whatever-symbol ) 2016-05-01T18:25:41Z PuercoPop: or (describe ) 2016-05-01T18:26:34Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:26:45Z PuercoPop: There is no guarantee that the implementation will save the source of associated with the function, but in slime M-. takes you to the definition 2016-05-01T18:27:44Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: In sly it is provided out of the block, sly-mrepl-new 2016-05-01T18:27:51Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:27:52Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:32:24Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:32:54Z jason_m_ joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:33:06Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: in slime it is, too! It does have a mrepl mode, but it slightly differs from the usual REPL mode. 2016-05-01T18:33:17Z phoe_krk: And I want it to run in the usual slime-repl-mode. 2016-05-01T18:34:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:36:00Z Secretmapper quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-01T18:36:09Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:37:37Z jason_m quit (Killed (weber.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-01T18:37:37Z jason_m_ is now known as jason_m 2016-05-01T18:38:02Z Guest88023 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:38:25Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T18:41:08Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:42:34Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:45:28Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-01T18:45:52Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:45:54Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:46:59Z circ-user-Aj5bb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T18:47:35Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:49:42Z azamkala quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:51:34Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T18:51:38Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:57:51Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T18:59:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:00:06Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:01:24Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: interesting, I thought that was a differentiating feature of sly. As I haven't used slime in ~2 years I may be out of the loop 2016-05-01T19:01:32Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-01T19:02:23Z linuxuser9000: >out of the loop 2016-05-01T19:02:26Z linuxuser9000: ba dum tsh 2016-05-01T19:02:47Z linuxuser9000: coincidentally, I'm trying to install emacs and slime for the first time 2016-05-01T19:02:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: What OS? 2016-05-01T19:03:28Z linuxuser9000: linux 2016-05-01T19:03:44Z linuxuser9000: if i had a mac i'd just use quicklisp or whatever it's called. lispbox/slimebox idk 2016-05-01T19:04:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: lispbox is outdated, quicklisp is for downloading lisp code 2016-05-01T19:04:38Z linuxuser9000: i see 2016-05-01T19:04:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: It should be enough to apt-get/dnf emacs, and then use the emacs package manager to install slime. 2016-05-01T19:05:11Z linuxuser9000: well, i'll have to install SOMETHING, because running 1-liner commands in the racket/picolisp command line isn't going to cut it much longer 2016-05-01T19:05:22Z linuxuser9000: i figure ill make it through chapter 1 of sicp at least before i have to install emacs 2016-05-01T19:05:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: You could just try MIT scheme. 2016-05-01T19:05:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: It comes with a mini-Emacs written in Scheme. 2016-05-01T19:05:54Z Petit_Dejeuner: Edwin 2016-05-01T19:06:06Z ecraven: Edwin is great :) 2016-05-01T19:06:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: The real MIT experience. There's some TA notes about edwin somewhere on the net too. 2016-05-01T19:06:15Z pseudo-s1e quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-01T19:06:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: You can laugh about undergrads wanting to use notepad++/sublimetext isntead. 2016-05-01T19:06:39Z ecraven: there's a halfway decent SLIME backend for MIT/GNU Scheme 2016-05-01T19:06:41Z linuxuser9000: "Real MIT experience" huh maybe I should take a look since I'll never get into MIT 2016-05-01T19:06:47Z ecraven: geiser recently gained support for a few new schemes too 2016-05-01T19:06:56Z linuxuser9000: ecraven won't slime work with racket? 2016-05-01T19:06:59Z Petit_Dejeuner: mit open course ware is also good, you can watch the SICP lectures 2016-05-01T19:07:06Z ecraven: I don't think there's a SLIME backend for racket 2016-05-01T19:07:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: racket-mode is pretty good for racket 2016-05-01T19:07:15Z ecraven: geiser is good for racket 2016-05-01T19:07:25Z PuercoPop: it is better to use quicklisp to install slime 2016-05-01T19:07:26Z ecraven: but any which way, you'll be running emacs ;) 2016-05-01T19:07:37Z linuxuser9000: Petit_Dejeuner: i have their lectures open in a browser tab 2016-05-01T19:07:39Z heddwch is now known as heddwlh 2016-05-01T19:07:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: wonderful 2016-05-01T19:07:43Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:07:45Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:07:45Z azamkala joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:07:52Z augustomna2010 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:07:55Z ecraven: PuercoPop: that won't help with racket, afaik there's no swank server for racket 2016-05-01T19:08:02Z linuxuser9000: Petit_Dejeuner: so I _can_ set up slime/emacs for racket? 2016-05-01T19:08:06Z linuxuser9000: Oh... 2016-05-01T19:08:14Z PuercoPop: (ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper) 2016-05-01T19:08:16Z ecraven: linuxuser9000: you can use geiser (which is a lot like slime) 2016-05-01T19:08:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've never tried to use Slime for something besides Common Lisp. 2016-05-01T19:08:29Z linuxuser9000: PuercoPop: what's that do? 2016-05-01T19:08:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: incidently, this channel IS supposed to be for common lisp 2016-05-01T19:08:38Z ecraven: Petit_Dejeuner: it works for MIT/GNU Scheme, and not much else.. and even for that, you need the server 2016-05-01T19:08:49Z PuercoPop: it is how you install slime through quicklisp 2016-05-01T19:08:53Z ecraven: hehe, doesn't say so in the name :p 2016-05-01T19:09:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: ecraven: I guess it wouldn't make sense for it work for anything that isn't just a REPL by default. 2016-05-01T19:09:10Z ecraven: PuercoPop: indeed, but that won't help at all for any Scheme, but only for whatever CL you use with quicklisp 2016-05-01T19:09:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: Racket on SLIME would be sort of weird. 2016-05-01T19:09:25Z ecraven: Petit_Dejeuner: it won't work for anything that has a repl, it needs a swank backend server 2016-05-01T19:09:29Z linuxuser9000: Well, could I do SICP with common lisp? 2016-05-01T19:09:35Z ecraven: Petit_Dejeuner: why? I'm running MIT/GNU Scheme on SLIME with great success :) 2016-05-01T19:09:37Z PuercoPop: For racket, I've tried racket-mode, it is good, but DrRacket is better for debugging or looking up docs (but it is out of topic) 2016-05-01T19:09:42Z linuxuser9000: at this point I don't really have a preference for which lisp i use 2016-05-01T19:09:50Z linuxuser9000: although eventually i want to use picolisp 2016-05-01T19:09:52Z ecraven: sbcl + slime is great 2016-05-01T19:10:06Z ecraven: racket/chicken/guile/mit + geiser (or slime for mit) is great too 2016-05-01T19:10:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: ecraven: Racket isn't really Scheme anymore. The typical way to run it is as a script. 2016-05-01T19:10:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: The REPL is a weird special case. 2016-05-01T19:10:23Z ecraven: Petit_Dejeuner: I disagree 2016-05-01T19:10:29Z ecraven: and people in #racket would disagree too 2016-05-01T19:10:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm probably wrong then. 2016-05-01T19:10:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: I remember jumping through hoops to get reloadable code. 2016-05-01T19:11:02Z ecraven: linuxuser9000: I don't know picolisp, use CL or Scheme, whichever is closer to picolisp 2016-05-01T19:11:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Without restarting the program or writing an interpretter or using eval. 2016-05-01T19:11:08Z PuercoPop: ecraven: immutable cons cells makes standard complaint code not run (iiuc). I ran into that issue when using racket for LiSP 2016-05-01T19:11:25Z ecraven: PuercoPop: yes, racket is different there 2016-05-01T19:11:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: Had to use this to change code during runtime, https://github.com/tonyg/racket-reloadable 2016-05-01T19:11:52Z azamkala: Question: How do I declare the types of inherited slots in a subclass? I have (defclass super ((slot1 :type (simple-array 'single-float (*))))) and (defclass sub1 (super)) and the sbcl 1.2.4 when I compile-file the containing file, the compiler reports that the slot in the subclass sub1 is of type array rather than simple-array. How can I change this? 2016-05-01T19:11:53Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:12:00Z linuxuser9000: I think I'll just use whatever comes with SLIME. 2016-05-01T19:12:10Z ecraven: linuxuser9000: then maybe SBCL is your best bet 2016-05-01T19:12:14Z ecraven: nothing comes with slime :) 2016-05-01T19:12:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: ^ 2016-05-01T19:12:19Z ecraven: slime supports most CL implementations 2016-05-01T19:12:27Z ecraven: (for my knowledge of most) 2016-05-01T19:12:28Z linuxuser9000: steel bank common lisp? 2016-05-01T19:12:34Z ecraven: linuxuser9000: yes, apt-get install sbcl 2016-05-01T19:12:38Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:12:42Z ecraven: or whatever :) most distros should have it 2016-05-01T19:12:43Z linuxuser9000: on it! 2016-05-01T19:12:52Z ecraven: then look into quicklisp, not hard to install 2016-05-01T19:12:58Z PuercoPop: But racket is a really good platform. The main different between racket and lisp is that racket is batch-oriented and lisp is more interactive. Also Racket is better documented, and easier to contribute docs and easier to install and get going (w/ DrRacket). I value interactivity more but ymmv 2016-05-01T19:13:06Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:13:21Z linuxuser9000: I heard that racket is "batteries included" 2016-05-01T19:13:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: ecraven: Do you disagree Racket not being scheme, the REPL being a special case, or both? 2016-05-01T19:13:37Z ecraven: I'd suggest you ask in #racket if you want to know about racket 2016-05-01T19:13:43Z ecraven: Petit_Dejeuner: neither :) 2016-05-01T19:13:49Z linuxuser9000: I figured the analogy must be like C vs C++ w/ the STL, or the "batteries included" also being like Java's generics library 2016-05-01T19:13:51Z ecraven: but I am not a racket user 2016-05-01T19:14:17Z ecraven: linuxuser9000: Common Lisp (so sbcl for example) have at least as many libraries as racket, factoring in quicklisp 2016-05-01T19:14:28Z ecraven: but for a Scheme-like, racket has a lot of libraries that just come with it 2016-05-01T19:14:30Z linuxuser9000: :0 sbcl puts a newline before the output! 2016-05-01T19:14:42Z heddwlh is now known as heddwch 2016-05-01T19:14:43Z linuxuser9000: I mean, two newlines... don't get technical on me guys 2016-05-01T19:14:58Z ecraven: use slime, that's much better anyway 2016-05-01T19:15:03Z ecraven: then you won't see that :) 2016-05-01T19:15:17Z ecraven: as in here or in #emacs on how to set it up fancily :) 2016-05-01T19:15:34Z ecraven: I'll have to run, slime/sbcl ask here, racket you might get better answers in #scheme or #racket 2016-05-01T19:16:00Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T19:16:13Z linuxuser9000: Ah right I didn't think of joining the #emacs channel thanks ecraven 2016-05-01T19:18:54Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:19:07Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-01T19:19:11Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T19:20:24Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:21:14Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:22:47Z tos-1 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:23:15Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:30:15Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T19:32:36Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:34:03Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T19:34:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:36:06Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:38:49Z erg joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:40:29Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:43:17Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:43:44Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-01T19:45:26Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:45:41Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T19:46:15Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:46:31Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T19:49:11Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-01T19:49:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:50:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:51:02Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:51:19Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:51:25Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T19:53:06Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:53:58Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:54:22Z monoda quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T19:54:51Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:56:07Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T19:56:52Z Baggers quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T19:56:55Z Baggers2 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T19:57:00Z Baggers2 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T19:58:23Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-01T20:00:29Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T20:01:54Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:03:55Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:04:23Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:05:15Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:06:57Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T20:07:00Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T20:08:06Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T20:08:42Z replcated joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:08:57Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:10:04Z ggole_ quit 2016-05-01T20:10:13Z Guest72152 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:11:29Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-01T20:13:18Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:16:09Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T20:16:33Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:18:28Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T20:19:20Z phoe_krk: Damn. 2016-05-01T20:19:27Z phoe_krk: Recording Lisp videos is fun. 2016-05-01T20:19:36Z phoe_krk: Subtitling them into English sounds like a tough task. 2016-05-01T20:20:00Z phoe_krk: That nevertheless needs to be done, I won't really be submitting Polish speech over here. 2016-05-01T20:24:53Z s00pcan quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T20:25:12Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:28:51Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:29:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:29:15Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: doesn't youtube provide automated captions than you can later correct? 2016-05-01T20:30:14Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-01T20:31:51Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:32:11Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:32:30Z s00pcan quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T20:32:47Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:32:53Z heddwch is now known as hfuldwch 2016-05-01T20:33:02Z azamkala quit (Quit: Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc) 2016-05-01T20:33:42Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:34:04Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:36:08Z wanttodecide joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:36:11Z wanttodecide: hello 2016-05-01T20:36:30Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:36:45Z wanttodecide: please, I don't want to provoke holywar 2016-05-01T20:37:16Z wanttodecide: please, help me to decide what to use for highload web app - SBCL or Node.js 2016-05-01T20:37:32Z hfuldwch is now known as hedd 2016-05-01T20:37:35Z wanttodecide: does anyone has an experience? 2016-05-01T20:37:46Z pjb: Yes, I've used lisp, I'm happy with it. 2016-05-01T20:37:53Z hedd is now known as heddwch 2016-05-01T20:38:20Z shikhin is now known as FireyFly 2016-05-01T20:38:27Z wanttodecide: pjb: SBCL for highload? 2016-05-01T20:38:33Z heddwch is now known as WaterFly 2016-05-01T20:39:08Z pjb: Do you have a compute intensive application or do you mean network traffic? If network traffic, how the implementation can impact it? 2016-05-01T20:39:31Z wanttodecide: pjb: my future application is database backed 2016-05-01T20:39:47Z wanttodecide: pjb: customer need to use PostgreSQL 2016-05-01T20:40:04Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:40:04Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T20:40:32Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:40:46Z FireyFly is now known as hcwddeh 2016-05-01T20:41:03Z MrrTrump: hows lisp concurrency on 64 bit? 2016-05-01T20:41:14Z hcwddeh is now known as shikhin 2016-05-01T20:41:32Z WaterFly is now known as heddwch 2016-05-01T20:41:46Z pjb: concurrent. 2016-05-01T20:42:24Z pjb: wanttodecide: there are great PostgreSQL tools written in Common Lisp. 2016-05-01T20:43:29Z PuercoPop: wanttodecide: there is cl-async if you want to write 'non-blocking' code a la node. 2016-05-01T20:43:52Z PuercoPop: with blackbird to avoid writing tons of callbacks by hand 2016-05-01T20:43:52Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:44:01Z wanttodecide: pjb: do you mean Postmodern? 2016-05-01T20:44:24Z pjb: http://cliki.net/database 2016-05-01T20:44:44Z wanttodecide: PurcoPop: afaik, Postmodern does not support async, so it can't be used with cl-async 2016-05-01T20:44:45Z PuercoPop: however the only async database driver that I know of is cl-rethinkdb. 2016-05-01T20:45:36Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:46:41Z PuercoPop: wanttodecide: you can use it, but not to full effect. From reading the connection code adapting postmodern woulnd't be too hard if it is a requirement 2016-05-01T20:46:53Z PuercoPop: (most web apps don't really have that requirement) 2016-05-01T20:49:25Z MrrTrump: blackbird 2016-05-01T20:49:39Z MrrTrump: is that some kind of js lib? 2016-05-01T20:50:47Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T20:51:04Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-01T20:52:13Z p_l: single postgres connection doesn't allow much asynchronicity anyway 2016-05-01T20:54:11Z PuercoPop: yes, it is like bluebird sans the js. 2016-05-01T20:54:48Z MrrTrump: what bluebird? 2016-05-01T20:54:57Z MrrTrump: heh 2016-05-01T20:55:07Z MrrTrump: <---behind in my js wizardry I guess 2016-05-01T20:55:24Z MrrTrump: gnoga done in ADA is interesting in that you do one code base for desktop web mobile without any js needed 2016-05-01T20:55:27Z wanttodecide: p_l: yes, indeed 2016-05-01T20:55:28Z MrrTrump: thats kinda c00l 2016-05-01T20:55:37Z MrrTrump: postgresql doe sit scale well? 2016-05-01T20:55:57Z MrrTrump: I tuned the hell outa it at last job but boss wanted it to fail so they would keep oracle 2016-05-01T20:56:08Z MrrTrump: I think he was a free software hater deep down 2016-05-01T20:56:09Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:56:19Z MrrTrump: psotgresql I have never worked ata place with high volume 2016-05-01T20:56:27Z MrrTrump: I hear its great.. 2016-05-01T20:56:39Z MrrTrump: most shops I work have far too little database skill 2016-05-01T20:56:48Z MrrTrump: use db as a fiel server almost 2016-05-01T20:56:56Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T20:57:13Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I think I'll actually do it. There's going to be a lot to correct, since Polish isn't a well-pampered language on Youtube. 2016-05-01T20:58:38Z wanttodecide: if I call a C function which returns C string allocated dynamically, what overhead will take place while working with that string in Lisp? 2016-05-01T20:58:39Z Guest72152 is now known as cyphase 2016-05-01T20:59:09Z cyphase is now known as Guest31296 2016-05-01T20:59:40Z prxq: wanttodecide: it will cost you a lot of your time debugging ridiculous errors. convert it to a lisp string and live like a king :-) 2016-05-01T21:00:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:00:41Z Guest31296 is now known as cyphase 2016-05-01T21:00:52Z pjb: (incf prxq) 2016-05-01T21:00:58Z cyphase quit (Changing host) 2016-05-01T21:00:58Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:02:17Z PuercoPop: p_l: it is not the asyncronicity in postgres that one wants to exploit, but that while the driver is waiting for a response, other other code can be running (fe another request) 2016-05-01T21:02:39Z wanttodecide: prqx: does these converstion leads to data copying? 2016-05-01T21:03:21Z pjb: Yes. 2016-05-01T21:03:44Z pjb: But in general, it's worth it. 2016-05-01T21:04:37Z wanttodecide: pjb: I guess, it copies the data from C heap to Lisp heap, right? 2016-05-01T21:04:41Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: one can hope youtube uses the corrections to improve the translation 2016-05-01T21:04:45Z pjb: yes. 2016-05-01T21:07:34Z wanttodecide: pjb: I see. thank you 2016-05-01T21:07:39Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T21:07:48Z tos-1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-01T21:07:54Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I hope, too. 2016-05-01T21:08:10Z phoe_krk: But, anyway - I have a bunch of videos to translate. I'll try doing it on Tuesday as it's free in Poland. 2016-05-01T21:08:17Z phoe_krk: As in, a holiday. 2016-05-01T21:09:49Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-01T21:10:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T21:10:54Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:12:16Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-01T21:12:16Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T21:12:42Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T21:13:30Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:15:01Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:15:50Z jasom: wanttodecide: we should forget small inefficiencies say 97% of the time. 2016-05-01T21:18:56Z jasom: wanttodecide: if you know the memory copy is going to be in a tight loop, you might want to improve things. There are ways for you to preallocate a vector, get a pointer to it and pass it into C, for example. However, this is exremely unlikely to be your bottleneck. 2016-05-01T21:19:42Z cyphase quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2016-05-01T21:20:25Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:21:00Z cyphase_ joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:21:45Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: program first, profile later, optimize last. 2016-05-01T21:22:40Z cyphase_ is now known as cyphase 2016-05-01T21:22:40Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T21:23:13Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:23:31Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:24:33Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-01T21:24:57Z mejja quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T21:27:17Z wanttodecide: jasom: thanks! I bother because I know, that HTTP side code is what is called "controller" in MVC and it 10% of the overall code 2016-05-01T21:27:49Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: oh, it's hard :) 2016-05-01T21:27:59Z pjb: wanttodecide: you should ponder very seriously on: https://gist.github.com/jboner/2841832 2016-05-01T21:28:49Z jasom: phoe_krk: knowing what the overhead is for various things is very important. When you do have performance minima to meet, it can disqualify entire approaches before you write a single line of code 2016-05-01T21:30:12Z wanttodecide: pjb: wow 2016-05-01T21:30:44Z wanttodecide: pjb: it is very informative indeed! 2016-05-01T21:30:46Z Jonsky quit (Quit: zzzz....) 2016-05-01T21:31:26Z jasom: wanttodecide: considering I've seen 10GigE lines saturated with a networking driver and stack that combines for a minimum of 2 copies for every send() call, a single memcopy isn't a problem. Now if that happens several times at every level of abstraction and you end up with 200 copies, then you do have a problem 2016-05-01T21:33:23Z jasom: a bigger concern might be when your entire server becomes non-responsive for 10s of ms due to a full GC happening, and if that's not a problem then neither is a couple of copies. 2016-05-01T21:34:07Z wanttodecide: jasom: well, I guess, the Node.js has the same issue with copying data from C heap to JavaScript heap, right? 2016-05-01T21:34:29Z jasom: yes, and GC pauses and more 2016-05-01T21:36:21Z jasom: node.js main advantage versus lisp is that its webserver is used more in production; hunchentoot isn't exactly a speed demon and on the other end of the spectrum, I don't know if anybody is using woo in production. 2016-05-01T21:37:03Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T21:38:33Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:39:17Z wooden_: in common lisp #'describe sends its output to standard out. how can i instead use its output in a #'format command, e.g. (format t "myobject = ~a~%" (describe myobject))? 2016-05-01T21:39:43Z wanttodecide: jasom: I've tried the Hunchentoot. The main bottleneck I've faced is slow multipart/form-data parser. If I decide to choise Lisp I'll write it in C and improve Hunchentoot to use the custom parser 2016-05-01T21:39:58Z pjb: (format t "myobject = ~A~%" (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (describe myobject))) 2016-05-01T21:40:32Z jasom: does it go to standard output or terminal output? 2016-05-01T21:40:38Z pjb: Notice also that describe takes a stream as second parameter. 2016-05-01T21:40:45Z pjb: clhs describe 2016-05-01T21:40:45Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_descri.htm 2016-05-01T21:41:00Z Baggers quit (Quit: sleeeeps) 2016-05-01T21:41:30Z wooden_: pjb: i did see that, but i didn't know how to give it "whatever stream format is using at the moment". thanks for that. 2016-05-01T21:41:36Z jasom: wanttodecide: I think I'm the only one who currently does it, but I use mongrel2 for my web serving 2016-05-01T21:42:07Z wanttodecide: jasom: sorry, does what? 2016-05-01T21:42:10Z pjb: wooden_: t = *standard-output* for format. So (format t "myobject =") (describe myobject) (format t "~%") is good too. 2016-05-01T21:42:22Z jasom: wanttodecide: use mongrel2 for web serving of lisp applications 2016-05-01T21:43:27Z jasom: hmm, I don't seem to have my mongrel2 clack backend up on github; I'll have to fix that tonight 2016-05-01T21:43:48Z wanttodecide: jasom: do you happy with it? 2016-05-01T21:43:51Z circ-user-ej3JP joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:44:08Z jasom: wanttodecide: I am, but I had to write everything myself 2016-05-01T21:44:19Z pjb: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015 2016-05-01T21:44:20Z jasom: also configuring mongrel2 isn't the most pleasant experience 2016-05-01T21:44:35Z PuercoPop: jasom: woo is used by fukamachi in production afaik. And there is wookie, which powers tutle app 2016-05-01T21:44:47Z PuercoPop: (and predates woo). 2016-05-01T21:46:14Z PuercoPop: both wookie and and woo use the same http parser now btw 2016-05-01T21:46:40Z jasom: oh, good to know. It's quite fast. 2016-05-01T21:46:40Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T21:47:06Z prxq: pjb: "From NaN, 0NaN to NaN, 0NaN, a total of 882 repos were created" <-- 2016-05-01T21:47:16Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:47:28Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T21:48:56Z wanttodecide: jasom: but how about just using FastCGI instead all of these Hunchentoots, Woos etc etc ? 2016-05-01T21:49:20Z PuercoPop: and quite readable. I really like orthocreedence's code 2016-05-01T21:49:48Z PuercoPop: watersoul: you can use fastcgi w/ clack easily afaik 2016-05-01T21:49:49Z PuercoPop: sorry it was wanttodecide 2016-05-01T21:50:37Z jasom: does clack's fcgi backedn actually work? I used a fast cgi library a while back and found and fixed bugs in it for a while before it was stable 2016-05-01T21:50:52Z wanttodecide: PuecoPop: I mean to just use CFFI to use libfcgi and write minimalistic app 2016-05-01T21:51:21Z wanttodecide: PuecoPop: without any frameworks, toolkits etc etc 2016-05-01T21:51:24Z jasom: wanttodecide: I seem to recall there are significant impedence mismatches with libfcgi and lisp, but this was a long time ago that I looked at this 2016-05-01T21:52:00Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T21:52:10Z wanttodecide: jasom: hmm :( 2016-05-01T21:52:21Z jasom: I may be misremembering. This was on the order of a decade ago 2016-05-01T21:52:28Z jasom: maybe 2008ish? 2016-05-01T21:53:13Z PuercoPop: jasom: i was under the impression that fukamachi used fastcgi for quickdocs before woo was written. But I may be wrong here 2016-05-01T21:54:44Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T22:00:19Z wanttodecide: okay guys 2016-05-01T22:01:42Z wanttodecide: how about efficiency of memory usage when comparing SBCL and Node.js? Does anybody knows? 2016-05-01T22:02:00Z wanttodecide: under high load 2016-05-01T22:02:46Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T22:03:40Z varjag: anything's great compared to node 2016-05-01T22:03:47Z wanttodecide: hahaha 2016-05-01T22:04:19Z wanttodecide: varjag: is it joke? 2016-05-01T22:04:26Z varjag: not really 2016-05-01T22:04:33Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:04:46Z wanttodecide: hmm 2016-05-01T22:05:13Z wanttodecide: varjag: seriously? 2016-05-01T22:05:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:07:19Z varjag: i'm not sure where you get the idea of node's memory efficiency from 2016-05-01T22:08:12Z wanttodecide: varjag: I have no idea, thats why I'm asking 2016-05-01T22:08:15Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T22:08:40Z wanttodecide: varjag: is SBCL better here? 2016-05-01T22:08:51Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:09:05Z varjag: depends what you do with it 2016-05-01T22:09:15Z varjag: if you implement node.js in sbcl, it sure ainæt 2016-05-01T22:10:21Z alexherbo2 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-01T22:10:25Z wanttodecide: varjag: I consider to use SBCL or Node.js in production on the HTTP side as a controller between clients and the DBMS 2016-05-01T22:11:29Z v0|d joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:12:37Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T22:13:06Z wanttodecide: varjag is thinking... 2016-05-01T22:13:06Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T22:13:28Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: sounds like a way to utilize Hunchentoot and Drakma when it comes to HTTP! 2016-05-01T22:14:03Z phoe_krk: These are the duo when it comes to Lisp HTTP. 2016-05-01T22:14:28Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:15:17Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:19:06Z sigpoll joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:19:07Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T22:19:16Z sjl: clhs with-accessors 2016-05-01T22:19:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_acce.htm 2016-05-01T22:19:36Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-01T22:19:47Z sjl: so, the hyperspec for with-accessors doesn't mention structs, but in both sbcl and ccl it appears to work with structs as well 2016-05-01T22:19:57Z sjl: is this just blind luck that I shouldn't rely on? 2016-05-01T22:20:39Z p_l: sjl: I think in the end it was an implementation specific detail that happens to be commonly shared 2016-05-01T22:21:12Z sigpoll: How do you compile a file with sbcl? I tried running 2016-05-01T22:21:12Z sigpoll: sbcl --noinform --eval "(compile-file \"foo.lisp\")" --eval "(quit)" 2016-05-01T22:21:12Z sigpoll: but I ended up with some sort of bytecode, not machine code. 2016-05-01T22:21:12Z sigpoll: 2016-05-01T22:21:45Z sjl: p_l: that would be my guess... I'm wondering exactly how "commonly" to decide whether to take advantage of it :) 2016-05-01T22:22:34Z pjb: sjl: it works with ACCESSORS. 2016-05-01T22:22:56Z pjb: It would work with any accessors, not necessarily structure or clos object accessors. 2016-05-01T22:23:07Z PuercoPop: sjl: aren't structrures just classes and accessors just methods? 2016-05-01T22:23:22Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: not always AFAIR. 2016-05-01T22:24:07Z phoe_krk: But I might be wrong. 2016-05-01T22:24:22Z pjb: PuercoPop: no, structures are not "just" classes. They're structure-classes. 2016-05-01T22:24:34Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-01T22:24:37Z phoe_krk: That's what I was talking about. 2016-05-01T22:24:39Z pjb: and no, accessors are not methods. Accessors are functions. 2016-05-01T22:24:52Z pjb: And not necessarily generic function. 2016-05-01T22:26:07Z PuercoPop: pjb: they are classes, they aren't subclasses of standard object lie most classes. Didn't knew about acccessors though. So accessors are just any function (generic or otherwise) with one argument? 2016-05-01T22:26:31Z pjb: basically. 2016-05-01T22:26:41Z pjb: pair of functions actually, you need a reader and a writer. 2016-05-01T22:26:52Z pjb: So foo and (setf foo). 2016-05-01T22:27:13Z PuercoPop nods 2016-05-01T22:27:26Z PuercoPop: TIL 2016-05-01T22:28:11Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: ? 2016-05-01T22:28:29Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: I'm trying to decide what to use 2016-05-01T22:29:46Z varjag: sigpoll: you get a so-called FASL, a binary in a lisp specific format 2016-05-01T22:29:52Z varjag: it's not an elf executable 2016-05-01T22:29:55Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: I don't know about NodeJS, but Lisp does sound like a good idea for that. 2016-05-01T22:30:08Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: It seems to me that there is no big difference between Node.js and SBCL to use in production HTTP under highload 2016-05-01T22:31:03Z sigpoll: varjag: Is there any way to create machine code from sbcl? 2016-05-01T22:31:03Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T22:31:04Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: No idea. You could make some stress tests. 2016-05-01T22:31:49Z phoe_krk: sigpoll: SBCL automatically compiles your code. You can always call DISASSEMBLE on a function to have it printed back to you in your Lisp implementation's assembly/bytecode form. 2016-05-01T22:32:01Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:32:40Z sigpoll: phoe_krk: Ok, thank you 2016-05-01T22:32:40Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T22:33:12Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:33:37Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: the only thing why Lisp is better is a development environment. The refactoring of JS can be a nightmare. 2016-05-01T22:35:56Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: I prefer writing Lisp code to JS code, but that's a matter of taste, I think. 2016-05-01T22:37:01Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:37:28Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: yes, me too, but it is impossible to avoid the JavaScript 2016-05-01T22:37:56Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: just because there is no alternative in the browsers 2016-05-01T22:38:15Z Cxcf: is it possible not nest cond statements? 2016-05-01T22:38:27Z phoe_krk: Cxcf: hm? Give me some samples. 2016-05-01T22:38:29Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T22:38:42Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: yes, but serverside you can use CL and clientside, there's Parenscript. 2016-05-01T22:38:43Z pjb: Cxcf: that should not necessarily be an objective. 2016-05-01T22:39:49Z Cxcf: I'm trying to decode mips instructions. 2016-05-01T22:39:59Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T22:40:10Z otwieracz joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:40:19Z pjb: Cxcf: use ldb and case? 2016-05-01T22:40:27Z Cxcf: So, if (opcode is 0) -> (find function type) 2016-05-01T22:40:54Z Cxcf: whats the infobot on this channel? 2016-05-01T22:40:57Z pjb: (case opcode ((0) (aref function-types function)) …) 2016-05-01T22:41:00Z pjb: Cxcf: minion 2016-05-01T22:41:27Z varjag: sigpoll: machine code does not means directly executable 2016-05-01T22:41:39Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: does Parenscript supports ES6? 2016-05-01T22:41:41Z varjag: consider c object files (.o, .so) 2016-05-01T22:41:50Z Cxcf: kk, pjb, I'll give that a shot. Thanks:) 2016-05-01T22:42:03Z varjag: if you want a direct executable you have to generate it with sbcl 2016-05-01T22:42:05Z varjag: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Generating-Executables 2016-05-01T22:42:49Z phoe_krk: wanttodecide: no, not yet. Nobody updated it for ES6 yet. 2016-05-01T22:42:52Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T22:43:07Z phoe_krk: I go to sleep though; good night. 2016-05-01T22:43:20Z wanttodecide: phoe_krk: good night! 2016-05-01T22:43:21Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:46:51Z jz joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:47:04Z jz is now known as Guest38804 2016-05-01T22:48:16Z johnzorn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T22:48:34Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T22:48:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:48:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-01T22:48:44Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:55:42Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:55:56Z circ-user-7QunR joined #lisp 2016-05-01T22:57:04Z circ-user-7QunR quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T22:58:39Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T22:59:18Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:00:19Z circ-user-3qSR4 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:03:48Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T23:03:52Z wanttodecide quit 2016-05-01T23:05:56Z circ-user-ej3JP quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T23:06:25Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:07:29Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T23:07:45Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:07:49Z slyrus joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:08:05Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:08:47Z circ-user-3qSR4 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-01T23:09:53Z agidyne joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:12:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:18:48Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:20:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:20:20Z SHODAN quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-01T23:21:02Z Guest88023 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-01T23:21:24Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:22:28Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:25:47Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:28:27Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:30:09Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:32:37Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:35:45Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:36:16Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:37:47Z bullets: Would you say that lisp was before 1984 in a similar state that scheme is today? 2016-05-01T23:41:41Z rvirding: how do you mean? 2016-05-01T23:42:34Z bullets: implementation-dependant behaviour for nearly all of the language 2016-05-01T23:43:11Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:47:07Z myrkraverk quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:50:50Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:53:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:53:28Z gluytium joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:54:29Z d4ryus quit (Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-01T23:54:30Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:56:02Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-01T23:58:09Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:59:02Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-01T23:59:04Z pllx quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-01T23:59:30Z s6kalra: Why is lisp so great? 2016-05-01T23:59:31Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:00:02Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T00:00:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:01:19Z pllx quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T00:03:31Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T00:03:43Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:04:05Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T00:04:18Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:08:21Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:10:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:13:04Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-02T00:14:55Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:15:00Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T00:15:01Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:21:13Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:28:38Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:32:38Z Cxcf` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:34:32Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T00:36:03Z s6kalra quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:36:45Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:36:56Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:38:26Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:41:02Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-02T00:42:11Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:44:47Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-02T00:45:33Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T00:48:34Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:51:03Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:54:33Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-02T00:55:34Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T00:57:57Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:02:10Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T01:02:20Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:03:12Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:05:14Z bullets quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:06:09Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:13:11Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T01:16:40Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:26:41Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:30:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:33:56Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:36:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:41:04Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:41:56Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:52:09Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:55:47Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:56:25Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T01:56:50Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:57:05Z lexicall quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T01:58:40Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:01:28Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T02:01:58Z lexicall joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:10:21Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:14:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:18:53Z payphone quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-02T02:20:55Z lexicall quit (Quit: Ah, my macbook is gonna sleep!) 2016-05-02T02:23:29Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:25:43Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:32:26Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-02T02:35:33Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:37:59Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:39:15Z Cxcf: So after a computation, I have a binary value like 000000000111101011. The number is supposed to be a two's complement number, but I don't know how to truncate the leading zero's. 2016-05-02T02:39:41Z Cxcf: Normally, with Java, I'd just put it into a short and it would cut the 0s' off. Is there something lisp can do to handle it? 2016-05-02T02:40:50Z Bike: what do you mean you "have a binary value"? what's the lisp type? string, number? 2016-05-02T02:42:23Z Cxcf: the result of my computation, at least form I wish to access it, is in #b000000000111101011 2016-05-02T02:42:37Z Cxcf: or it can be, I know a number is a number 2016-05-02T02:43:02Z Cxcf: but the part of this number that matters to me is found in its binary representation. specifically, the 111101011 [22:42] 2016-05-02T02:43:03Z Cxcf: part:/ 2016-05-02T02:43:18Z Bike: yeah, that's kind of what i'm getting at. you can't "truncate the leading zeroes" from a number. seven could be just as well written 7, 07, 007, whatever. 2016-05-02T02:43:45Z Bike: in what form do you want the binary representation of the number? string? just iterating over the bits? 2016-05-02T02:43:45Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T02:44:31Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:45:53Z Cxcf: Ah, ok. So I should specify that 000000000111110101011 is not the number I want. Its the result of my calculation. I want the 2's compliment number formed at the end. As if the 1st one were the first digit of the number 2016-05-02T02:46:03Z Cxcf: am I making any sense:/ 2016-05-02T02:46:09Z Ober quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:46:21Z Bike: oh! yeah, ok. 2016-05-02T02:47:07Z Bike: you have to do the conversion yourself. you can't cast the bits or anything. 2016-05-02T02:47:42Z Bike: so basically logbitp to test the sign bit, logand to get the numeric bits, and do some arithmetic. 2016-05-02T02:49:17Z Cxcf: yeah, I logand the number with a bitmask variable and then get the large 00000001111110000 number. 2016-05-02T02:49:26Z Cxcf: I'm trying to decode mips instructions 2016-05-02T02:49:53Z Bike: no, i mean, i'm telling you how to get the potentially negative number. 2016-05-02T02:51:22Z Cxcf: Oh, ok, one sec. 2016-05-02T02:52:26Z Cxcf: but the sign bit I want is burried behind zero's the first zero's 2016-05-02T02:52:36Z Bike: i don't know what that means. 2016-05-02T02:52:44Z Cxcf: oh, hold on, lemme think 2016-05-02T02:55:03Z Cxcf: Can I show you what I have? 2016-05-02T02:55:07Z Bike: sure. 2016-05-02T02:55:48Z sigpoll quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T02:55:50Z Cxcf: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315174 2016-05-02T02:56:33Z Bike: that doesn't really tell me anything, I don't know in what sense it's "hidden inside". 2016-05-02T02:56:44Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T02:57:51Z Bike: also, your style is a bit funky. 2016-05-02T02:58:52Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T02:58:59Z Cxcf: when it's in the form, bx0000000111111000101, I want to use the 1111111110000101 part as 2's compliment 2016-05-02T02:59:03Z Cxcf: haha, it's my second lisp program. Any tips would be appreciated:) 2016-05-02T02:59:29Z Cxcf: btw, I intend to close those parens once I finish the function 2016-05-02T02:59:30Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-05-02T02:59:35Z Cxcf: or make them ))) 2016-05-02T02:59:39Z Bike: ok, but how is that determined? Is it the least significant twelve bits? 2016-05-02T03:00:05Z Cxcf: YES! the 1's compliment is the least significant 12! 2016-05-02T03:00:14Z Bike: alright. 2016-05-02T03:00:16Z Cxcf: damn, I should have thought to put it that way 2016-05-02T03:00:58Z Bike: so mask out the least significant twelve bits, and then you can convert to a signed lisp integer by normal arithmetic: (- (logand (1- (ash 1 11)) bits) (logand (ash 1 11) bits)) 2016-05-02T03:03:28Z Bike: actually, i guess that does the masking for you, now doesn't it 2016-05-02T03:04:10Z Cxcf: hold on, let me work through this 2016-05-02T03:04:47Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:07:23Z Bike: as for style: initial-offset instead of initialOffset etc, ending parens all go on the last line, setq right after a variable initialization is strange 2016-05-02T03:07:27Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:07:50Z Cxcf: setq after initialization is strange? 2016-05-02T03:07:54Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:07:57Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:08:07Z Bike: sure. that zero's going to waste. 2016-05-02T03:08:36Z Bike: i would do (let* ((offset 0) (bitmask-offset #xffff) (initial-offset (logand hex-num bitmask-offset))) ...) 2016-05-02T03:09:23Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:10:19Z Cxcf: Oh, I didn't know that was legal 2016-05-02T03:10:37Z Bike: the let* does the bindings in sequence, so initial-offset's can refer to bitmask-offset's. 2016-05-02T03:10:48Z Cxcf: awesome 2016-05-02T03:10:55Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T03:11:42Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:11:56Z Cxcf: and out of curiosity, how do you read lisp code in your head 2016-05-02T03:12:10Z Cxcf: I'm trying to walk myself through your negative number solution and I'm tripping. 2016-05-02T03:12:16Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:12:19Z Cxcf: So, in my head, I read it as: 2016-05-02T03:13:22Z Cxcf: shifting bits, and-ing them and then subtracting the values 2016-05-02T03:13:33Z Cxcf: and what does (1-...) do/ 2016-05-02T03:13:34Z Cxcf: ? 2016-05-02T03:13:45Z Bike: (1- x) = (- x 1) 2016-05-02T03:14:11Z bullets quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T03:14:26Z Cxcf: damn, that's beautiful 2016-05-02T03:15:10Z Bike: you could just write out the constants too. (1- (ash 1 11)) = #x7ff is all. 2016-05-02T03:15:32Z MrrTrump: ok can you build fast webapps in just lisp, no poostgresql, no apache, none of that crap 2016-05-02T03:15:45Z MrrTrump: can teams use lisp 2016-05-02T03:15:56Z Bike: are you the MrTrump who was banned? 2016-05-02T03:16:01Z MrrTrump: or is al the abstraction so complex only the one who makes them can understand 2016-05-02T03:16:08Z MrrTrump: I dunnno 2016-05-02T03:16:14Z MrrTrump: why was the other guy banned? 2016-05-02T03:16:20Z MrrTrump: and why are you worried abotu ti? 2016-05-02T03:16:41Z MrrTrump: Im here to talk about lisp, this is the lisp channel right? 2016-05-02T03:16:58Z Cxcf: Bike: so you used (1- (ash 1 11)) instead of the bitmask? 2016-05-02T03:17:02Z Bike: yeah 2016-05-02T03:17:17Z Cxcf: that's extremely clever 2016-05-02T03:17:18Z Bike: because what i'd actually do is write a conversion function that takes the bit width as an argument, and pass in 12 2016-05-02T03:17:53Z Bike: and then just have (de2scomp offset 12) or something in ur code. 2016-05-02T03:19:02Z Bike: i don't actually remember how the math works, but it does, so that' sgood enough for me 2016-05-02T03:19:33Z Bike: (de2scomp #b10000010 8) => -126, etc 2016-05-02T03:19:53Z Cxcf: Ah, ok 2016-05-02T03:20:10Z Cxcf: so let me see if I can get my mind around this 2016-05-02T03:20:19Z White_Flame: MrrTrump: Lisp is a great team language, but it is different. In, say, Java teams, you have to learn the intended OO inheritance tree and architecture that the team creates. In Lisp, the team has to primarly learn function and macro interfaces 2016-05-02T03:23:29Z Meow-J quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:23:29Z |2701 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:23:56Z cibs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:24:04Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:24:15Z Cxcf: Bike: would this be a fair restatement of your solution (- (logand bitmask bits) (logand bitmask bits)) 2016-05-02T03:24:20Z Cxcf: ? 2016-05-02T03:24:27Z Bike: no 2016-05-02T03:24:41Z Bike: they're not the same mask 2016-05-02T03:24:56Z Bike: the first mask is the lower eleven bits, the second is the highest bit 2016-05-02T03:25:14Z dwynwen_ddlleyw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:25:30Z Bike: eg with #b10000010 it's like (- #b0000010 #b10000000) 2016-05-02T03:26:03Z Bike: if it was the same mask obviously it would be zero. 2016-05-02T03:26:09Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:26:50Z dwynwen_ddlleyw joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:26:53Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:27:07Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:29:36Z Petit_Dejeuner` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:30:04Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:31:11Z MrrTrump: hmmm 2016-05-02T03:32:00Z cibs joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:32:52Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:33:00Z Cxcf: Bike, is this using the already bitmasked value? 2016-05-02T03:33:06Z Cxcf: like I did in my example? 2016-05-02T03:33:32Z Bike: it doesn't matter, since it only uses the low bits 2016-05-02T03:34:20Z Petit_Dejeuner` is now known as Petit_Dejeuner 2016-05-02T03:38:02Z cowsay joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:39:19Z cowsay quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T03:39:37Z cowsay joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:41:36Z cowsay: I have a file with the following: (require 'asdf) (print (asdf:asdf-version)) 2016-05-02T03:41:37Z cowsay: When I try to compile it, I get an error saying, "Package ASDF does not exist", but when I evaluate each expression seperately it works perfectly. Is there something I'm doing wrong? 2016-05-02T03:42:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:42:49Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:43:03Z Bike: when you compile a file, it doesn't evaluate the forms, so asdf hasn't been required as it tries to read the second form 2016-05-02T03:43:37Z cowsay: How would I get asdf to be required, then? 2016-05-02T03:44:40Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:44:53Z Bike: you can use eval-when to get the compiler to evaluate a form in addition to compiling it. (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require 'asdf)) 2016-05-02T03:45:55Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T03:47:18Z cowsay: Thanks, that fixed it 2016-05-02T03:47:56Z MrrTrump: could you in lisp have say 4 read only data servers 2016-05-02T03:48:01Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:48:02Z MrrTrump: and one server to accept updates 2016-05-02T03:48:10Z Bike: you should know that most of the time for anything very long you'd use a system organization instead of requiring things 2016-05-02T03:48:20Z MrrTrump: and somehow write and app that runs fast queries against data in RAM on the 4 2016-05-02T03:48:26Z Cxcf: Bike: I'm sorry, I'm still woefully comfused:( 2016-05-02T03:48:29Z MrrTrump: and puts updates into RAM on the update server 2016-05-02T03:48:34Z Bike: Cxcf: what about 2016-05-02T03:48:47Z MrrTrump: then have some servers off to the side for persistance? 2016-05-02T03:49:01Z MrrTrump: prevayler style logging of updates 2016-05-02T03:49:07Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:49:19Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:49:45Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T03:50:19Z Cxcf: on how the negative solution works:/ As far as I can understand, we're subtracing two bitmasks? 2016-05-02T03:50:28Z MrrTrump: the idea of data written to disk and then an update log seems briillliant 2016-05-02T03:50:38Z Bike: Cxcf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two's_complement#Converting_from_two.27s_complement_representation it's jsut this 2016-05-02T03:52:56Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:54:14Z Cxcf: My understanding of converting from two's compliment is flipping all the bits and adding 1. 2016-05-02T03:54:35Z Cxcf: is that what the negative code accomplishes? 2016-05-02T03:54:39Z Bike: you can do that too, yeah. but i couldn't get it working so i just cargo culted that instead. 2016-05-02T03:54:51Z Cxcf: cargo culted? 2016-05-02T03:55:09Z Bike: like, i copied it without understanding why it works. 2016-05-02T03:55:19Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-02T03:56:35Z Cxcf: oh, gotcha... hmmm... 2016-05-02T03:56:49Z Bike: you can do it some other way if you want. 2016-05-02T03:56:57Z Cxcf: I guess that was my problem, I was trying to read that code in terms of my understanding of converting from two's compliment 2016-05-02T03:57:06Z Bike: go with the flow, i say 2016-05-02T03:57:15Z Cxcf: I'll need to find another way. Sorry for the confusion. 2016-05-02T03:57:34Z Cxcf: I've actually had this problem for a while. I'm pretty stumped myself 2016-05-02T03:57:54Z Bike: this doesn't work for you? 2016-05-02T03:58:14Z Cxcf: the (- (logand (1- (ash 1 11)) bits) (logand (ash 1 11) bits)) solution? 2016-05-02T03:58:19Z Bike: yes 2016-05-02T03:58:38Z Cxcf: I'm honestly not sure how to implement it in the function 2016-05-02T03:58:47Z Cxcf: would that go where ";;stuck here" goes? 2016-05-02T03:58:52Z Bike: yes 2016-05-02T03:58:56Z Bike: with "offset" instead of "bits" 2016-05-02T03:59:02Z bokr joined #lisp 2016-05-02T03:59:03Z Cxcf: Alright, let me give it a shot 2016-05-02T03:59:06Z Cxcf: brb 2016-05-02T03:59:20Z Bike: er, initial-offset, i guess. 2016-05-02T03:59:57Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T04:02:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:02:54Z Cxcf: Holy shit Bike ! It worked!!!!!! 2016-05-02T04:02:59Z Cxcf: I don't understand it but it worked!!!! 2016-05-02T04:03:12Z Cxcf: Thank you so much! 2016-05-02T04:03:29Z Cxcf: I am still confused, but my mind is somewhat at ease. 2016-05-02T04:03:48Z Cxcf: That's amazing! 2016-05-02T04:03:58Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T04:05:05Z Bike: ok cool. 2016-05-02T04:07:46Z Cxcf: I really appreciate the help:)! 2016-05-02T04:07:47Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T04:08:12Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:08:15Z MrrTrump quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T04:08:23Z Bike: no problem. 2016-05-02T04:10:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T04:10:05Z Bike: if you want to replace it with a conversion you understand, you can use lognot and so on. in lisp lognot can be unintuitive, though, since integers are considered to have an infinite number of preceding 0s or 1s depending on sign, and lognot flips those. 2016-05-02T04:12:46Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:17:03Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-02T04:20:26Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:20:33Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-02T04:20:58Z Bike: morning beach 2016-05-02T04:21:42Z Cxcf: Thank's again Bike , I'll do that:) + good morning Beach. It's technically morning in Boston. 12:21am. 2016-05-02T04:28:26Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:29:06Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-02T04:29:06Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-02T04:29:48Z s6kalra quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T04:30:12Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:30:53Z cowsay quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T04:32:18Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:37:19Z beach: It seems bootstrapping issues continue to confuse people. I recently saw this remark from 6502: https://github.com/davazp/jscl/issues/50#issuecomment-17249017 2016-05-02T04:43:51Z Bike: well, if they don't have defclass they can't use it, i guess. 2016-05-02T04:44:35Z beach: But every conforming implementation has defclass, so they could just use any conforming implementation for bootstrapping. 2016-05-02T04:47:54Z Bike: your reader uses classes and stuff at runtime, i guess, so those have to exist in jscl, i think? 2016-05-02T04:48:06Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:48:08Z Bike: since it's not like they can output js of functions defined in the building cl. 2016-05-02T04:48:09Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-02T04:48:31Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T04:49:32Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:50:01Z beach: I don't understand your last remark. 2016-05-02T04:50:25Z beach: Maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but I can't even parse it. 2016-05-02T04:50:34Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T04:51:40Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:52:02Z beach: What I mean to say is that I can understand that, given the choices on how to create a particular implementation, such dependencies can be showstoppers. But what I can't understand is why anyone would make such choices. 2016-05-02T04:52:10Z Cxcf` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T04:52:32Z beach: I.e., why would anyone want to create a Common Lisp implementation using a crippled version of Common Lisp for some of the code? 2016-05-02T04:53:07Z Bike: nobody wants to, it's just kind of weird to do otherwise, i think? like sbcl's double build thing. 2016-05-02T04:53:18Z beach: The remarks of 6502 look like it would be a requirement to follow the historical development of Common Lisp when creating a modern Common Lisp system. 2016-05-02T04:53:26Z Bike: well, yeah, that was kind of weird. 2016-05-02T04:54:03Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-02T04:54:46Z Bike: but like, jscl's build process is you load jscl.lisp in whatever implementation, and that produces a jscl.js which is the jscl runtime and consists of javascript code. everything in that file has to be js, obviously, so you couldn't just have a sicl reader function that uses defclass etc. unless those also exist in the js file. 2016-05-02T04:58:35Z beach: Sure, so you use a different Common Lisp system to create the js file containing classes, LOOP, and everything else. 2016-05-02T04:58:49Z asc232 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T04:59:01Z beach: What is weird to me is that many creators of Common Lisp systems seem to work as if theirs were the first such system ever created. 2016-05-02T05:00:01Z Bike: i apologize, i'm kind of frazzled right now and may not be making sense and understanding 2016-05-02T05:00:26Z beach: Sure. Are you OK? 2016-05-02T05:00:51Z beach: Don't feel you have to engage in this conversation if that is a problem. 2016-05-02T05:01:33Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:03:24Z Bike: i'm ok. the non-bootstrapping way would be to write a cl->js compiler in CL using everything, and running that on all the necessary definitions for a full implementation, finishing with itself. right? 2016-05-02T05:03:39Z beach: Right. 2016-05-02T05:04:10Z beach: Which would be reasonable, given that people who write Common Lisp systems presumably like to write Common Lisp code, so they would write as much as possible in Common Lisp. 2016-05-02T05:04:14Z Bike: then the only dependencies to worry about are that compile-time things like macros are available, presumably written in host code. 2016-05-02T05:04:26Z beach: Exactly. 2016-05-02T05:05:47Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:11:00Z PuercoPop: beach: Although I agree with you that it is not the best choice of JSCL to restrict itself to code the compiler can compile, the author has studied other CL implementations (mainly SBCL fwiu) before writing JSCL. Personally I think first implementing the whole ANSI standard and then being able to compile itself would be an easier approach (like clojurescript for example) 2016-05-02T05:14:14Z beach: I don't see how this "easier approach" contradicts my preference. Unless by "first implementing the whole ANSI standard" you mean doing so using some language other than Common Lisp or using a subset of the full Common Lisp language. 2016-05-02T05:14:15Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:14:43Z PuercoPop: beach: I am agreeing with you. 2016-05-02T05:14:53Z beach: Ah, OK. 2016-05-02T05:15:47Z beach: I mistakenly thought that "Although ..., " would be followed by some kind of disagreement. 2016-05-02T05:17:21Z PuercoPop: I wanted to note the author does disagree, but after re-reading an email fro ma ml, he also seems to agree with you 2016-05-02T05:17:30Z PuercoPop is confused 2016-05-02T05:18:24Z Zhivago: People writing lisp code generally value doing something interesting more than getting something that works. 2016-05-02T05:18:50Z flip214: ain't that the famous "lisp curse"? 2016-05-02T05:18:55Z theBlackDragon joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:19:53Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:24:32Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:26:34Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:26:53Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:27:56Z bokr quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-02T05:32:52Z beach is not aware of any famous Lisp curse. 2016-05-02T05:33:45Z phoe_krk: ,g Lisp curse 2016-05-02T05:34:00Z phoe_krk: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html 2016-05-02T05:34:08Z dongz: Lithp 2016-05-02T05:35:11Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:36:18Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-02T05:36:18Z peey: Does a ^M at the end of a string mean anything special? 2016-05-02T05:36:39Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:36:46Z beach: peey: Probably that it was read from a file that uses the DOS convention for newlines. 2016-05-02T05:37:04Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T05:37:47Z dongz: ^ 2016-05-02T05:37:55Z peey: How could I normalize it? 2016-05-02T05:38:14Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:38:32Z dongz: M-x replace-string ^M 2016-05-02T05:38:37Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:39:53Z peey: Thanks! But I was able to open the target file in notepad++ and "edit > eol conversion > save as unix format" in this case 2016-05-02T05:40:40Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:43:07Z _mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:44:54Z peey_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T05:46:32Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:47:22Z Zhivago: Part of the lisp curse is to be unaware of the lisp curse. 2016-05-02T05:49:42Z aeth: phoe_krk: That link definitely reminds me of the Lisp gamedev situation. There are usually at least three libraries for every task and afaik every single one of them is made by fewer than four people, usually just one. None of the libraries (afaik) are complete, except some of the C library wrappers. Documentation is almost always just reading the source code directly. 2016-05-02T05:50:16Z aeth: My own library, of course, is also part of this problem. :-p 2016-05-02T05:51:59Z aeth: I think it has more to do with hobby vs. professional, though, rather than particular language features. 2016-05-02T05:52:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T05:53:23Z aeth: libraries are probably like this in every language s aren't usually made in. 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CCL starts up really fast before adding quicklisp to the init file. Then the startup becomes really sluggish. SBCL seem to not have the same problem. There is a barely noticeable difference after quicklisp is installed. 2016-05-02T07:44:18Z engblom: Most sites seem to claim CCL should compile faster, how comes it is so slow at starting up with quicklisp in init? 2016-05-02T07:44:40Z White_Flame: it's probably doing other things than compilation, like lots of file accesses or something 2016-05-02T07:44:58Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-05-02T07:45:17Z White_Flame: you should start with running top and seeing if it's actually cranking on the CPU during that time, and if so then look into CCL's profilers to find out 2016-05-02T07:45:31Z engblom: With sbcl it is instant (not more than 1 second). With CCL it is like 20s 2016-05-02T07:45:59Z White_Flame: then that's a nice, wide target to drill down into 2016-05-02T07:46:19Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-02T07:46:30Z engblom: Before quicklisp, the difference was too small to be measured. CCL felt maybe very slightly faster but too little difference to check with a stopwatch 2016-05-02T07:48:55Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T07:49:15Z engblom: It seem to take 100% of one of the core most of the time while starting up, except for the first few seconds 2016-05-02T07:49:25Z engblom: cores* 2016-05-02T07:51:44Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-02T07:51:50Z engblom: So now it is time for a choice for me: Native threads (CCL) or faster single thread (SBCL). 2016-05-02T07:52:07Z Zhivago: What problem do threads solve for you? 2016-05-02T07:54:37Z engblom: Zhivago: I do not know much about CCL, as this is the very first time I am trying it. This article ( http://temporal.pr0.pl/devblog/2015/03/07/lisp-on-raspberry-pi-2-part-1-setting-up/ ) claims the native threads in CCL makes interactive stuff better. 2016-05-02T07:54:51Z engblom: (on raspberry pi 2) 2016-05-02T07:55:52Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-02T07:58:16Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T07:58:40Z igam: engblom: In general user interfaces are sequential: your ear listens to a single (stereo) sound channel, your mouth emits a single (mono) sound channel, and while your eyes, are able to perceive at some level parallel input (pixels), your brain usually is able to dedicate only a single flow of attention (eg. you cannot read two books or two messages at the same time). While we nowadays have multi-touch devices, the main paradigm is 2016-05-02T07:58:40Z igam: still that of a single event flow into the computer: you cannot usually click on two buttons at the same time. 2016-05-02T07:58:42Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-02T07:59:01Z igam: engblom: therefore, explain us, how threads are useful for interactive stuff? 2016-05-02T08:00:59Z engblom: igam: As I said, I know almost nothing about CCL. However, I can find many scenarios for when native threading might help depending on how the lisp interpreter/compiler is built. Once would be to clean the garbage collector on a separate thread so the performance is not dropping in the main thread. 2016-05-02T08:01:00Z igam: Multiple threads may be useful when you have to update different parts of the display (any medium, not necessarily only screen; you can have sound and other effectors) at the same time. But with the usual UI frameworks, this must still be done by multiplexing the updates in a single UI thread. 2016-05-02T08:01:20Z engblom: s/once/one/ 2016-05-02T08:01:25Z igam: This has nothing to do with ccl. It's a general technological question, about usual common user interface frameworks. 2016-05-02T08:02:04Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T08:02:13Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-02T08:02:24Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:02:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T08:03:43Z engblom: igam: It is the article I linked to that claims it is better for interactive stuff. Why he claims it, I do not know. I can only imagine it is because of faster respond times if GC for example would not kick in on the same thread exactly when you expect some result. 2016-05-02T08:10:14Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T08:10:48Z arbv quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-02T08:11:05Z White_Flame: it probably has to do with how SLIME runs 2016-05-02T08:11:19Z White_Flame: as it'll thread the repl 2016-05-02T08:13:25Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a function in sbcl to take all the functions I have typed into the repl so far and print their source into a file? 2016-05-02T08:15:16Z igam: engblom: if you're worried about GC, it's easy to perform a GC each time you've finished processing an event, or when no new event is available. 2016-05-02T08:15:30Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-02T08:17:33Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:19:00Z engblom: igam: GC was just one example of what could be a benefit of using threads. I do not know at all how CCL is implemented, but for example compilation could be on a separate thread allowing what is already compiled to run at max speed. There are several theroretical scenarios that the developers might have been taking use of if they have native threads. I have no idea what they did, just that one guy having the 2016-05-02T08:19:07Z engblom: same hardware picked CCL because of better performance 2016-05-02T08:21:50Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:23:06Z igam: I'm not saying that threads are not useful. But in the context of user interface, there's a big complication. 2016-05-02T08:23:43Z igam: You have to justify them and be careful what you do in the thread. In most case, you should definitely NOT do anything UI related in the threads other than the main UI thread. 2016-05-02T08:25:46Z engblom: That is true, and I do not say anything against that. My only point is that more performance means shorter waiting time in interactive situations. 2016-05-02T08:28:02Z igam: So now instead of just computing the output and displaying it, you have to add the over head to context switch to threads, to synchronize with threads for sending the request, and back to receive the results before displaying them. 2016-05-02T08:35:49Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:42:15Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:44:43Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:48:23Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:49:01Z oskarth joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:49:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T08:56:24Z bege joined #lisp 2016-05-02T08:56:47Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T08:58:50Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T09:03:07Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:10:40Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:11:36Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T09:12:56Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:12:57Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T09:12:57Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:13:43Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:13:47Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T09:14:09Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:14:22Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:17:16Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T09:17:38Z jasom: engblom: most (if not all) lisp implementations stall all threads when a full GC happens. 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2016-05-02T10:53:58Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T10:54:06Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T10:54:37Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T10:57:48Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T10:58:39Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T10:59:18Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T11:01:43Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:01:49Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T11:02:10Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T11:04:08Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:04:47Z knobo1: Could I make a wrapper for asdf so that for every (:file "file"), it checks for file-package.lisp and compiles that first? 2016-05-02T11:05:12Z _mjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:05:14Z knobo1: or, would that be a very stupid idea? 2016-05-02T11:06:22Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:07:12Z jackdaniel: sounds sane enough for me. I wouldn't be suprised, if asdf had a method for that 2016-05-02T11:07:21Z jackdaniel: like asdf:load-op 2016-05-02T11:07:42Z ysz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:07:43Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:08:17Z fe[nl]ix: that won't work 2016-05-02T11:08:39Z fe[nl]ix: ASDF computes the traverse graph statically, without touching the file-system 2016-05-02T11:09:12Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:09:27Z fe[nl]ix: what you're asking is how Make works, which checks the file-system after each compilation step 2016-05-02T11:09:44Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:10:02Z knobo1: But when asdf starts compiling, it would read the filesystem. So if the file exists, it should be compiled before "file.lisp" 2016-05-02T11:10:24Z jackdaniel: maybe I misunderstood knobo1, but in terms of Makefile he just wants to create dep: "file.lisp: file-package.lisp" 2016-05-02T11:10:28Z fe[nl]ix: I don't think ASDF supports that 2016-05-02T11:10:41Z bokailya quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-02T11:11:13Z knobo1: If the file does not exist, then that is also ok. 2016-05-02T11:11:13Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T11:11:22Z fe[nl]ix: that's bad, don't do it 2016-05-02T11:11:29Z fe[nl]ix: optional deps is really bad 2016-05-02T11:11:38Z knobo1: I just want to put the package definition in a separate file. 2016-05-02T11:11:45Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:11:48Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T11:12:11Z fe[nl]ix: put all your packages in a package.lisp which is the first file in the system 2016-05-02T11:12:12Z knobo1: So that it would be easier to use cl-annot 2016-05-02T11:12:37Z fe[nl]ix shakes head 2016-05-02T11:12:51Z fe[nl]ix: cl-annot is another bad idea 2016-05-02T11:12:55Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:13:25Z fe[nl]ix: macros you can't easily macroexpand because the author wants java/python syntax for macros 2016-05-02T11:13:50Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T11:14:00Z knobo1: I only use the @export annotation. 2016-05-02T11:14:49Z fe[nl]ix: just put exports in the package definition 2016-05-02T11:15:55Z knobo1: Yes that would work. It's just that I'm lazy and looking for an easier way. 2016-05-02T11:15:55Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2016-05-02T11:16:01Z knobo1: I could make emacs do the job for me. 2016-05-02T11:16:24Z knobo1: That is a good idea.. 2016-05-02T11:16:24Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T11:16:31Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:17:20Z knobo1: http://labs.ariel-networks.com/cl-style-guide.html Why we recommend such an ugly syntax? Because it provides transparency to our code. 2016-05-02T11:17:24Z sword`` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T11:19:10Z Guthur joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:20:34Z Guthur: I'm curious on thoughts why there does not appear to be a linter for CL, is it due to a lack need or effort? 2016-05-02T11:21:19Z fe[nl]ix: it's not easy to write one in the presence of reader macros 2016-05-02T11:22:41Z test1600_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T11:24:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T11:28:22Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T11:30:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:31:44Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T11:34:12Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:35:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:37:04Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:38:37Z jackdaniel: hah, CL Recipes finally arrived :) 2016-05-02T11:40:03Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:42:16Z _death: Guthur: https://github.com/g000001/lisp-critic 2016-05-02T11:45:42Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-02T11:46:23Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T11:48:07Z random-nick: is GNU CLISP a bad implementation of common lisp? 2016-05-02T11:48:09Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T11:51:14Z jackdaniel: random-nick: no 2016-05-02T11:51:21Z jackdaniel: but it may be annoying at times 2016-05-02T11:51:28Z jackdaniel: and is unmaintained at the time being 2016-05-02T11:52:55Z ysz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-02T11:53:21Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T11:56:17Z ghard joined #lisp 2016-05-02T11:57:42Z ghard: Good 2016-05-02T11:58:34Z ghard: Has anybody had fun lately with Hunchentoot and clients that seem to have a rather creative interpretation of HTTP/1.1 transfer encodings? 2016-05-02T11:58:59Z ghard: I.e. thinking that "identity" means "no chunking" 2016-05-02T11:59:39Z _mjl quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T12:00:40Z ysz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:01:23Z ghard: s/"no chunking"/"No chunking the reply, please or I'll die on my a**" 2016-05-02T12:04:03Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T12:04:50Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:06:54Z s6kalra quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T12:07:05Z random-nick: https://i.imgur.com/GLLJXCT.jpg 2016-05-02T12:08:32Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-02T12:08:33Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-02T12:08:50Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:09:22Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:15:42Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:18:47Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T12:18:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:21:49Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:21:56Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T12:23:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:23:17Z nakiya quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:23:20Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:24:14Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:24:17Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T12:24:30Z nakiya joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:25:22Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:25:30Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T12:25:58Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-02T12:26:26Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:27:02Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:28:17Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:28:22Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:29:26Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T12:29:49Z knobo1: ghard: good (local-time:now) 2016-05-02T12:30:15Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:31:37Z arbv left #lisp 2016-05-02T12:31:59Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:32:32Z ejt joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:32:43Z s6kalra quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T12:34:35Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:34:48Z s6kalra_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:35:17Z ejt: hi, I was wondering if anyone could give me some help with some cffi code I'm working on? I've used binary-types to define the data I'm packing, and I now need to use this on a memory buffer. What's the best way to allocate a memory buffer, and comvert it into a stream for use by :binary-types? 2016-05-02T12:38:35Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:39:54Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:41:51Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:42:57Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-05-02T12:42:57Z arbv left #lisp 2016-05-02T12:44:52Z s6kalra_ quit (Quit: Bye!) 2016-05-02T12:44:56Z ysz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-02T12:45:05Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:45:07Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:46:13Z pbgc quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T12:53:19Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:55:18Z grublet quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T12:55:25Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-02T12:59:04Z s6kalra quit (Quit: Bye!) 2016-05-02T13:00:22Z igam: ejt: I would use CFFI, WITH-FOREIGN-ARRAY or WITH-FOREIGN-OBJECT and MEM-AREF or MEM-REF. 2016-05-02T13:02:10Z ejt: igam: thx, how would you turn such an object into a stream for binary-types to serialise to? 2016-05-02T13:05:40Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:06:05Z s6kalra joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:09:58Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T13:12:13Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:15:50Z Oladon1 is now known as Oladon 2016-05-02T13:16:15Z igam: ejt: you would have to use Gray streams. I don't know any library having that already implemented. 2016-05-02T13:17:01Z igam: IIRC, there are Gray stream libraries to write to normal lisp vectors, but not to foreign memory. 2016-05-02T13:17:07Z oskarth quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-02T13:17:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:17:16Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:17:20Z igam: That would be interesting to have, to read/write from/to mmaped files. 2016-05-02T13:18:21Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:19:22Z quazimod2 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:20:45Z s6kalra quit (Quit: Bye!) 2016-05-02T13:20:59Z ejt: igam: thx 2016-05-02T13:21:03Z wheelsucker quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-02T13:21:30Z naterubin joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:22:53Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T13:22:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:23:44Z algae joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:24:00Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:24:02Z warweasle: Is there a way to put a quicklisp project under my quicklisp project? 2016-05-02T13:24:03Z arbv left #lisp 2016-05-02T13:24:37Z XachX_: warweasle: what does that mean? 2016-05-02T13:25:32Z warweasle: XachX_: my game relies on squirl physics. Can I put it under my game project to make it easier to install? Also, it will likely be a modified version. 2016-05-02T13:25:50Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:26:03Z XachX_: warweasle: is squirl a cl project? 2016-05-02T13:26:33Z XachX_: warweasle: in the past, bundling third party lisp libraries like that became a pretty big headache. 2016-05-02T13:26:36Z warweasle: XachX_: Yes, a pure lisp project. 2016-05-02T13:26:49Z DeadTrickster: sounds like qlot job 2016-05-02T13:26:57Z warweasle: XachX_: Otherwise I have to tell them to install it. 2016-05-02T13:27:16Z XachX_: warweasle: you could make q bundle with quicklisps bundling facility. 2016-05-02T13:27:56Z warweasle: XachX_: Ok, I didn't know about that. I'll have to look up how to do it. 2016-05-02T13:28:30Z XachX_: warweasle: if you are modifying squirl it would be good to coordinate upstream 2016-05-02T13:29:34Z warweasle: XachX_: It's not in QL. 2016-05-02T13:29:56Z XachX_: Even so. 2016-05-02T13:30:24Z XachX_: Quicklisp bundles can incorporate non QL projects. 2016-05-02T13:31:49Z warweasle: XachX_: But that's why coordinating wouldn't work. I'll look up the bundles. There is a lot more the QL than I realized. 2016-05-02T13:32:54Z XachX_: warweasle: why wouldn't coordinating work? If you are distributing a modified squirl, you are forking it. It is better to use a new name or work with the maintainer to add your changes. 2016-05-02T13:33:03Z XachX_: Or you could become the maintainer 2016-05-02T13:34:07Z warweasle: XachX_: That's likely. But for the Gamejam I'm ok with quick and dirty. 2016-05-02T13:34:26Z XachX_: Oh sure. 2016-05-02T13:34:44Z XachX_: You should use dirtylisp bundles then. 2016-05-02T13:35:00Z XachX_: The combined power! 2016-05-02T13:35:43Z warweasle: XachX_: Can't, I would get symbol conflits from my enterprise porn microservices. (Love that Star Trek Midget porn.) 2016-05-02T13:37:11Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:37:21Z igam` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:38:42Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:38:49Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:39:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:39:13Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:39:19Z edgar-rft: dirtylisp - when people with a lisp say words like "athhole"! 2016-05-02T13:39:30Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T13:40:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:40:08Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T13:40:08Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:40:11Z Munksgaard left #lisp 2016-05-02T13:41:03Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T13:41:26Z mejja joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:43:13Z warweasle: edgar-rft: I'm pretty sure common lisp is the dirty one. It's a ball of mud which contains everything. 2016-05-02T13:43:38Z edgar-rft: not everything, e.g. "athhole" is missing... 2016-05-02T13:44:43Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:45:23Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:49:13Z igam`: edgar-rft: that was for #lispcafe 2016-05-02T13:51:23Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T13:52:29Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:54:40Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T13:55:03Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:55:07Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T13:57:14Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-02T13:57:48Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T13:58:18Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:01:29Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:02:48Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:03:03Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:07:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:07:48Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:09:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:09:06Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T14:09:39Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:09:40Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T14:09:40Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:10:24Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:14:08Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:16:32Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:16:55Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:17:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:18:02Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:19:34Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:20:50Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:20:51Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:21:09Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:21:16Z arbv left #lisp 2016-05-02T14:26:41Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:27:25Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:27:54Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:28:03Z peey quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-02T14:28:46Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:30:49Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:33:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:36:35Z arbv quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2016-05-02T14:38:09Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:38:09Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T14:38:18Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T14:38:29Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:39:29Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:40:26Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:40:56Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T14:41:54Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:42:06Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:42:12Z aeth quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T14:43:11Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:43:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:43:44Z arbv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T14:44:05Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:45:12Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:45:26Z mejja: Chez Scheme is now officially the fastest lisp on the planet! So the recommendation to you guys is to give up on Cobol Lisp and join the revolution in #scheme. ;-) 2016-05-02T14:46:27Z dlowe: why would I want that? 2016-05-02T14:46:40Z dlowe: my computer is too fast already. 2016-05-02T14:47:12Z Bike: because insults really make you want to try something, of course 2016-05-02T14:47:54Z random-nick: why people keep calling common lisp cobol? 2016-05-02T14:48:08Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:48:20Z dlowe: I can imagine the new ads now -- "buy our stuff, asshole." 2016-05-02T14:48:35Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T14:48:47Z Jonsky: cobol lisp?? 2016-05-02T14:49:19Z Jonsky: but...racket is cuter... 2016-05-02T14:49:24Z brpocock joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:50:32Z ysz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:52:59Z nakiya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T14:53:04Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T14:54:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:54:24Z arbv quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2016-05-02T14:54:24Z xBlackyII joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:54:30Z nakiya joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:57:07Z ysz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-02T14:57:41Z xBlackyII left #lisp 2016-05-02T14:58:04Z xBlackyII joined #lisp 2016-05-02T14:58:33Z theos: Cobol Lisp would be interesting 2016-05-02T15:00:17Z ysz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:00:38Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-02T15:01:57Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:05:51Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:09:05Z brpocock: I'm afraid I walked into something meant ironically, but you can call GCC-COBOL exported functions over CFFI just fine, if you're bored. 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That's hilarious, if not very useful 2016-05-02T15:38:01Z fouric: ...gcc has a COBOL backend? 2016-05-02T15:40:18Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-02T15:42:37Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:43:40Z p_l: fouric: frontend 2016-05-02T15:43:44Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:43:55Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:44:12Z p_l: if you have a file defined as a copybook and GCC-COBOL is compatible with said copybook, it can be a good idea 2016-05-02T15:44:40Z katco` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:44:47Z spacebat joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:45:27Z katco` is now known as katco 2016-05-02T15:46:05Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:47:42Z fouric: Interesting... 2016-05-02T15:47:57Z akkad: are there any sbcl based commercial apps that shit binaries one could recommend? 2016-05-02T15:49:25Z DeadTrickster: shit? 2016-05-02T15:50:21Z ejt: ship I presume 2016-05-02T15:50:57Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:51:07Z PuercoPop: knobo: Slime already makes it easy to export symbols. Just press C-c x to export and C-u C-c x to unexport. 2016-05-02T15:51:18Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:51:59Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-02T15:52:52Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:53:04Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:53:09Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:55:02Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:56:06Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T15:56:13Z igam``: akkad: there are a couple of commercial applications on the MacOSX ApoStore written in ccl. 2016-05-02T15:56:33Z igam`` is now known as igam 2016-05-02T15:56:52Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T15:58:20Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:00:17Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:00:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:01:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:03:59Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-02T16:05:24Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:07:01Z ysz quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-02T16:07:49Z ysz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:07:56Z ysz quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T16:08:19Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T16:09:12Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:10:54Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T16:11:25Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:11:34Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T16:14:54Z akkad: igam: that is free though right? 2016-05-02T16:16:10Z akkad: mocl works 2016-05-02T16:16:51Z alexherbo2 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:19:18Z nate_c joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:20:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:21:24Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:22:27Z sebity joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:24:28Z jasom: strangely enough COBOL has had two revisions to the ISO standard since Common Lisp. I had no idea that there was enough new COBOL code being written to make that financially feasible 2016-05-02T16:24:37Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:25:47Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T16:25:58Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:25:59Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:26:25Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:28:57Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:29:23Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:40:56Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:41:02Z dim: written/maintained 2016-05-02T16:41:40Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:45:50Z sebity left #lisp 2016-05-02T16:47:22Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T16:47:35Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:49:03Z igam: jasom: there is. 2016-05-02T16:49:10Z xBlackyII quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-02T16:49:32Z igam: jasom: there are orders of magnitude of orders of magnitude more Cobol LOC than Lisp LOC. 2016-05-02T16:50:51Z jasom: igam: yeah, a quick browse of wikipedia claims 5 billion lines of cobol being written annually as of 1997 2016-05-02T16:50:53Z brpocock: Even when counting “LOC” in a slightly more fair way, like comparing COBOL #\newlines to Lisp #\(s 2016-05-02T16:52:26Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:52:55Z jasom: I don't remember who showed me this, but a good way to compare code sizes from very disparate languages is to strip comments and then run through a general purpose compression algorithm; that eliminates most of the differences between length of commonly used keywords and variable names 2016-05-02T16:53:28Z jasom: otoh, it also can remove much of the penalty for copy-pasting code, depending on which compression algorihtm you use 2016-05-02T16:53:42Z Jonsky: how about....APL? 2016-05-02T16:53:45Z igam: Yes, this gives an upper bound for the Kolmogorov complexity. 2016-05-02T16:54:21Z igam: Jonsky: very hard to compress. 2016-05-02T16:54:42Z igam: I'd be not surprized if most APL programs, with comments removed, didn't compress at all. 2016-05-02T16:54:52Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-02T16:55:03Z jasom: Jonsky: apl is about as alive as lisp, is the impression I got; there are still multiple commercial APL vendors, just as with lisp 2016-05-02T16:55:16Z rpg is now known as Guest53904 2016-05-02T16:55:18Z igam: yes 2016-05-02T16:55:23Z Guest53904 is now known as _rpg 2016-05-02T16:55:31Z jasom: my source for that is that I met some professional APL programmers at my uncle's funeral 2016-05-02T16:56:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: Are Forth and SmallTalk in this weird world of multiple commercial implementations but still "dead"? 2016-05-02T16:56:29Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T16:56:43Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2016-05-02T16:56:48Z Jonsky: jasom: Actually I watched someone live-coded game of life in apl on youtube the other day but the keyboard thing is too extreme to me. I think I might learn J later. 2016-05-02T16:57:14Z _rpg: Petit_Dejeuner: My impression from talking to Smalltalk programmers is that they have a particular issue because Smalltalk is useless without libraries, and the libraries aren't standard and easily available. 2016-05-02T16:57:27Z _rpg: sounds like Scheme, only worse 2016-05-02T16:57:43Z igam: So they need something like quicklisp. 2016-05-02T16:58:00Z igam: Perhaps quicklisp (and asdf) could be extended to support Smalltalk and Scheme? 2016-05-02T16:58:18Z Bike: that would be more like a port. 2016-05-02T16:58:18Z _rpg: igam: I think it's worse than that: the de facto Smalltalk standard was established by vendors, and is proprietary. 2016-05-02T16:58:39Z _rpg: igam: And Scheme's standard is too weak to support a portable ASDF or QL. 2016-05-02T16:58:42Z igam: I know only two Smalltalks: Squeak and gst. 2016-05-02T16:58:50Z igam: r7rs. 2016-05-02T16:59:20Z Bike: CL's standard doesn't have networking either 2016-05-02T16:59:45Z rjnw joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:00:42Z _rpg: Bike: Yeah, but scheme doesn't even really have files!\ 2016-05-02T17:00:54Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:01:22Z igam: ok, uiop for scheme will be bigger than for CL; but it's still possible on the main scheme implementations. 2016-05-02T17:01:50Z phoe_krk: That feel when the most popular language in the 21st century is in fact another, imperfect as of the time being, Lisp dialect 2016-05-02T17:01:56Z phoe_krk: I just realized it. 2016-05-02T17:02:10Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:04:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: phoe_krk: Which language is that? Don't say js. 2016-05-02T17:04:46Z dlowe: My personal feeling is that it's not a lisp dialect unless the code is structured data. 2016-05-02T17:05:14Z dlowe: It doesn't have to be s-expressions - you could make one out of hash tables 2016-05-02T17:05:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: dlowe: all syntax is structured data ;) 2016-05-02T17:05:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: "you could make one of of hash tables" XML? 2016-05-02T17:05:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think there's an XML based language the medical community uses. MUMPS? 2016-05-02T17:05:51Z dlowe: Petit_Dejeuner: MUMPS predates XML by about three decades 2016-05-02T17:06:00Z Bike: it's like, o:xml or something 2016-05-02T17:06:01Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: I won't. 2016-05-02T17:06:04Z phoe_krk: Okay, fine, I won't. 2016-05-02T17:06:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: Thanks. 2016-05-02T17:06:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: Yeah, you're right. MUMPS is something else. 2016-05-02T17:06:34Z dlowe: but, yeah, XMLS is an awful, awful lisp, but it's more a lisp than Javascript or Ruby 2016-05-02T17:07:10Z phoe_krk: As imperfect as it is, JS is asymptotically approaching Lisp. 2016-05-02T17:07:33Z jackdaniel: “XML is simply lisp done wrong.” – Alan Cox 2016-05-02T17:07:36Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:08:07Z dlowe: phoe_krk: can I add syntax to javascript using its own operators? 2016-05-02T17:09:20Z phoe_krk: dlowe: so I said, `approaching`. Also, yes, SweetJS is a macro system for JS written in JS that outputs JS code that can be eval'd. 2016-05-02T17:09:25Z phoe_krk: So, amazingly, yes, you can. 2016-05-02T17:09:43Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:09:45Z phoe_krk: Which was a pretty big amazement to me, actually. 2016-05-02T17:09:47Z Bike: when you're truly enlightened, you'll see that actually lisp is asymptotically approaching snobol. tagbody and regexes are getting better and better 2016-05-02T17:10:20Z moore_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:10:25Z dlowe: phoe_krk: I can generate C++ code, call a C++ compiler, and load the result in from C++, but that doesn't make it a lisp 2016-05-02T17:11:16Z bullets: ^ any language can produce it's own input 2016-05-02T17:11:34Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:12:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: "asymptotically" Never touching. :) 2016-05-02T17:12:25Z phoe_krk: Then what does? Homoiconicity? JS can already express its whole self through JSON and a few libraries. 2016-05-02T17:12:25Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:12:32Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: shh, that's the between-the-lines meaning :D 2016-05-02T17:12:58Z Petit_Dejeuner: I can stay smug and "a bitch to deal with" forever. 2016-05-02T17:13:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: paradise 2016-05-02T17:13:13Z bullets: I'm curious as well, what separates lisp from js/ruby/perl6 2016-05-02T17:13:15Z bullets: ? 2016-05-02T17:13:33Z dlowe: depends on how you want to slice it up 2016-05-02T17:13:46Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:13:50Z bullets: let's say... in principle 2016-05-02T17:13:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: The parens, honestly. 2016-05-02T17:13:56Z bullets: from a theoretical point of view 2016-05-02T17:14:04Z dlowe: but I think it's pretty funny to have people argue with "a personal feeling" 2016-05-02T17:14:26Z bullets: though my question was still ambiguous 2016-05-02T17:14:42Z phoe_krk: bullets: I say not much more, mostly because the latter have been constantly borrowing from the former and there's only a finite amount of things to borrow. Aside from the "Lisp" name, that's a taboo, so this is going to stay. 2016-05-02T17:14:43Z dlowe: that's why your answer was vague 2016-05-02T17:14:59Z nakiya quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T17:15:32Z phoe_krk: And hell, I'm not complaining or wanting to start a shitstorm about how "JS is an acceptable Lisp" now. The more features and patterns from Lisp I can utilize outside Lisp, the better for me and the happier I am. 2016-05-02T17:15:38Z dlowe: C++ can express itself through LLVM and its AST structure 2016-05-02T17:15:45Z bullets: maybe the difference is that doing some things in js while possible are a PITA 2016-05-02T17:15:52Z dlowe: but neither C++ or JS were designed with this in mind 2016-05-02T17:16:05Z dlowe: it's not integrated in with the language 2016-05-02T17:16:38Z ozzloy_ is now known as ozzloy 2016-05-02T17:16:40Z bullets: yeah that too, they depend on external stuff 2016-05-02T17:16:47Z dlowe: so yeah, it may be a fuzzy boundary, but I think I've got a pretty solid case 2016-05-02T17:16:48Z ozzloy quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T17:16:48Z ozzloy joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:16:58Z phoe_krk: bullets: take note, the moment you integrate "the external stuff" with the language, it's internal. 2016-05-02T17:17:03Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:17:23Z phoe_krk: so basically, JS+JSON-LIBS+SweetJS+aCoupleBunchaOtherLibs becomes an acceptable Lisp. 2016-05-02T17:17:31Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...we could go the other route and say Scheme isn't a Lisp. 2016-05-02T17:17:35Z moore_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T17:17:36Z bullets: heh 2016-05-02T17:17:38Z phoe_krk: Which will make it possible for me to write JS. Finally. 2016-05-02T17:17:41Z _rpg is now known as rpg[Away] 2016-05-02T17:17:46Z drmeister: Hi - I think I need to use: (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) when compiling Clasp. Fare says this is bogus (http://fare.livejournal.com/146698.html). 2016-05-02T17:18:00Z phoe_krk: drmeister: why do you think you need to use? 2016-05-02T17:18:01Z TMM joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:18:05Z phoe_krk: I was reading this a few hours ago. 2016-05-02T17:18:10Z phoe_krk: s/use/use it/ 2016-05-02T17:18:34Z drmeister: I'm using it to compile code into a FASL that I want to execute when the FASL loads but not execute when I LOAD the source code or when I compile the source code. 2016-05-02T17:19:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: "dumps CONS cells to represent Lisp code in S-Expression forms (an unfortunate choice of representation, PLT Scheme fans will tell you)." heh 2016-05-02T17:19:10Z drmeister: It is epilogue code that starts the REPL at the very end of the load of the fasl file. 2016-05-02T17:19:13Z dlowe: Anyway, external stuff is not the same as internal. Things internal to a language are almost always privileged 2016-05-02T17:19:27Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:19:50Z drmeister: If I had (eval-when (:execute ...) ) it would start a REPL when I load the code prior to compile-file compiling it. 2016-05-02T17:20:11Z drmeister: If I had (eval-when (:compile-toplevel ...) ) it would start the REPL when I compile-file the code. 2016-05-02T17:20:16Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T17:20:27Z drmeister: So I think I want (eval-when (:load-toplevel) ...) 2016-05-02T17:21:19Z drmeister: If anyone sees a flaw in my thinking or a snake pit that I'm about to stumble into - I'd appreciate a heads-up. Otherwise I'll believe that I have a special case that goes beyond what Fare said. 2016-05-02T17:21:36Z drmeister: Meanwhile - I'm compiling everything - so that's the acid test. 2016-05-02T17:21:53Z phoe_krk: drmeister: with all due respect to Fare, I think he simply didn't think of a case such as yours. You're basically a Lisp implementer and, from my perception, EVAL-WHEN was meant to be a tool for people like you, poking their nose deep into Lisp's bowels. 2016-05-02T17:21:57Z nprorepti quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:22:41Z phoe_krk: :LOAD-TOPLEVEL sounds somewhat logical to me. 2016-05-02T17:22:54Z drmeister: Thank you - your eloquent words have moved me. 2016-05-02T17:23:21Z bullets: speaking of 2016-05-02T17:23:23Z phoe_krk: Macros are already a way of poking one's nose into how Lisp works, and the general case of (EVAL-WHEN (:EVERY-SINGLE-TIME) ...) is just for this. 2016-05-02T17:23:33Z bullets: is sbcl's core C? can it be bootstrapped in lisp? 2016-05-02T17:23:42Z phoe_krk: bullets: it's in C. 2016-05-02T17:23:45Z phoe_krk: Check the sources out. 2016-05-02T17:23:51Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: that one can write JS homoiconically (ie esprima and related) does not mean that is the default way. Apropos did you see the early versions of wat.js? The syntax was ["+", 1, 3] =) 2016-05-02T17:23:53Z ysz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:24:00Z phoe_krk: xD 2016-05-02T17:24:04Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:24:09Z bullets: so there's no bootstrapping involved? can/has it be done? 2016-05-02T17:24:18Z bullets: I mean I guess it *can*, has it? 2016-05-02T17:24:38Z phoe_krk: bullets: I saw a lot of assembly code in CCL's sources though! You might want to check it out, especially as it seems to define x86 assembly in Lisp. 2016-05-02T17:24:48Z phoe_krk: Brb, shopping time now! Back soon. 2016-05-02T17:24:54Z Bike: drmeister: this is the first time i've ever heard of anyone waanting something to run only on fasl load. so fare probably wasn't thinking of it. 2016-05-02T17:25:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:25:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:25:59Z Cthulhux quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T17:25:59Z Cthulhux joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:29:32Z nprorepti joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:31:09Z drmeister: Thanks. 2016-05-02T17:33:01Z Bike: i'm kind of curious why you load a file, then compile it, then load it again, though. 2016-05-02T17:34:01Z PuercoPop: bullets: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf This explain the boostraping of SBCL 2016-05-02T17:34:31Z ysz quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T17:36:04Z PuercoPop: parts of the runtime are in C, but it as its own assembler as well 2016-05-02T17:36:36Z bullets: PuercoPop: thanks! 2016-05-02T17:36:54Z bullets: yeah that's what I was thinking, since sbcl *compiles* it should 2016-05-02T17:38:00Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:38:31Z drmeister: Bike: Bootstrapping. 2016-05-02T17:38:38Z brandonz joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:39:10Z bullets: not bootstrappable from itself? hmmm 2016-05-02T17:39:53Z drmeister: Although - I was trying to save some trouble by loading the file as source without executing that epilogue form. But it cause some trouble of its own later - so I rearranged things so I don't load it the first time. 2016-05-02T17:40:16Z drmeister: bullets: I'm developing a new implementation of Common Lisp it bootstraps from a C++ compiler. 2016-05-02T17:40:35Z matija quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T17:40:54Z bullets: noice 2016-05-02T17:42:12Z drmeister: Bike: So now I load everything up to but not including the epilogue source file, compile-file everything and load each compile-file'd file as it gets generated, then I compile-file the epilogue source file without loading its product. Then I link everything together --> fasl. 2016-05-02T17:42:34Z phoe_krk: bullets: cautious there 2016-05-02T17:42:48Z phoe_krk: GHC made the mistake of bootstrapping itself *exclusively* off itself 2016-05-02T17:43:04Z drmeister: So technically I could now use (eval-when (:execute :load-toplevel) ) but the :execute would be redundant. 2016-05-02T17:43:24Z drmeister: phoe_krk: Really? A mistake? What's that all about? 2016-05-02T17:43:43Z drmeister: Rather, not redundant but pointless. 2016-05-02T17:43:55Z phoe_krk: drmeister: try porting GHC anywhere. 2016-05-02T17:44:15Z phoe_krk: The moment you don't have an x86_64 machine, you're pretty much sad. 2016-05-02T17:44:15Z drmeister: Point taken. 2016-05-02T17:44:32Z phoe_krk: And I've heard it from a person who is a NetBSD developer and *tried* this. And failed. 2016-05-02T17:44:54Z phoe_krk: C is the ultimate language for portability because it's literally a von Neumann machine programming language. 2016-05-02T17:45:06Z drmeister: So GHC is really stuck on x86_64? 2016-05-02T17:45:19Z phoe_krk: And every single computer in the world, ARM, SPARC, PowerPC, x86, is in fact a von Neumann machine implementation. 2016-05-02T17:45:31Z phoe_krk: drmeister: you need GHC to compile GHC. 2016-05-02T17:45:42Z phoe_krk: A different Haskell compiler won't do, GHC is required for its GHC extensions. 2016-05-02T17:46:03Z rme: phoe_krk: That is not so unusual. 2016-05-02T17:46:03Z drmeister: They can't cross-compile from x86_64? 2016-05-02T17:46:04Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:46:39Z bullets: phoe_krk: why is it a mistake, besides portability? 2016-05-02T17:46:46Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:46:54Z drmeister: I'm asking because I've got to a hell of a lot of trouble to keep a smooth build process from the clang C++ compiler. I can feel a bit better about it. 2016-05-02T17:47:08Z phoe_krk: rme: yes. But you can't compile GHC from C, unless you follow a very, very long and troublesome load of compiling incremental GHC versions over and over. 2016-05-02T17:47:24Z bullets: like, if you're bootstrapping for your machine(and ultimately for the fun of it) then portability should not be an issue, right? 2016-05-02T17:47:25Z phoe_krk: bullets: portability is a mistake enough on its own. Oh, and the Ken Thompson hack. 2016-05-02T17:47:37Z bullets: ? 2016-05-02T17:47:43Z phoe_krk: bullets: and in the world of multicore processors, ARM is soon going to be as importand as x86. 2016-05-02T17:47:46Z phoe_krk: http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/184874/is-ken-thompsons-compiler-hack-still-a-threat 2016-05-02T17:48:17Z rpg[Away] is now known as rpg_ 2016-05-02T17:48:20Z phoe_krk: drmeister: LLVM should keep you golden, it's also ultimately a von Neumann machine programming lannguage. But that's my own opinion and I still have my right to be young and stupid. 2016-05-02T17:48:51Z bullets: oh that's pretty awesome (the hack) 2016-05-02T17:48:57Z bullets: a-and dangerous yeah 2016-05-02T17:48:58Z phoe_krk: Yes. 2016-05-02T17:49:00Z bullets wiggles his finger 2016-05-02T17:49:04Z phoe_krk: It was *the* thing some time ago. 2016-05-02T17:49:10Z phoe_krk: GCC was not trusted because of it. 2016-05-02T17:49:15Z jasom: reflections on trusting trust is just fun to read 2016-05-02T17:49:23Z bullets googles 2016-05-02T17:49:24Z phoe_krk: Only after Tiny C Compiler came to life the hack was disproved. 2016-05-02T17:49:33Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:50:10Z bullets: thanks jasom now my to-read stack is bigger 2016-05-02T17:50:18Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:50:19Z bullets: and I only have a finite amount of time in this earth 2016-05-02T17:50:25Z phoe_krk: http://imgur.com/a/BWbnU#0 2016-05-02T17:50:26Z jasom: though high-reliability software requires verifying the machine code anyway, in defense against compiler bugs more than malicious compilation 2016-05-02T17:51:02Z phoe_krk: jasom: high-trust software require you frying your own chips and assembling your own RAM and CPUs out of them. 2016-05-02T17:51:07Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:51:14Z phoe_krk: Which is one more interesting perspective to look from. 2016-05-02T17:51:41Z jasom: meh 2016-05-02T17:51:56Z bullets: I wouldn't trust something I made myself tbh 2016-05-02T17:52:06Z phoe_krk: Which is even more interesting, bullets. xD 2016-05-02T17:52:11Z phoe_krk: Neither would I. 2016-05-02T17:52:30Z bullets 's definition of high trust computing is not to use computers at all 2016-05-02T17:53:27Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:53:29Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:53:45Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T17:54:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:54:24Z bullets: the irony, high trust X is about not trusting X 2016-05-02T17:54:26Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2016-05-02T17:54:50Z jasom: ultimately you have to trust some actors to be non-malicious for practical reasons 2016-05-02T17:55:04Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:56:36Z pjb: jasom: the question is to make a conscious choice of what actor you trust. 2016-05-02T17:56:48Z pjb: You have to know those actors and their puppet master! 2016-05-02T17:57:25Z pjb: and therefore trust their puppet master and the one who holds the balls of the puppet master. 2016-05-02T17:57:40Z pjb: (you have to know who it is too). 2016-05-02T17:58:19Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:58:30Z drmeister: phoe_krk: What would be the nature of the hack to be exploitable - that's something I don't understand. 2016-05-02T17:58:38Z oleo_ is now known as oleo 2016-05-02T17:59:02Z pjb: drmeister: it was implemented in the first unix C compiler (at least, the first one that was distributed). 2016-05-02T17:59:24Z quazimod3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:59:54Z phoe_krk: drmeister: Basically, you modify the compiler to be "intelligent" enough to do two things. 2016-05-02T17:59:56Z pjb: drmeister: when the compiler was compiling itself, it inserted code to test whether it was compiling itself or login, to insert that code in the compiler, and a backdoor login in login. 2016-05-02T17:59:58Z quazimod2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T17:59:59Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_away 2016-05-02T18:00:03Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:00:12Z drmeister: I see. 2016-05-02T18:00:37Z pjb: Of course, your imagination is the limit. 2016-05-02T18:00:40Z phoe_krk: First, whenever it's used to compile its own source code that's "verbatim", it compiles it along with a module that makes it fully behave in the way I'm describing now. 2016-05-02T18:00:50Z phoe_krk: Second, whenever it compiles the login program, it compiles it with a backdoor module. 2016-05-02T18:00:56Z phoe_krk: Other than that, it behaves as expected. 2016-05-02T18:01:25Z phoe_krk: So, given such a compiler in a binary form and any unmodified source code for the compiler, login program and the rest of the system, the maliciousness is able to propagate without being noticed. 2016-05-02T18:01:28Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-02T18:01:59Z pjb: and AFAIK, it was never noticed. The authors (the creator of unix) wrote a paper about it a few years later. 2016-05-02T18:02:17Z phoe_krk: The compiler will always be evil, the login will always have a backdoor, and you can compile them from pure, hand-checked source and still have the virus intact. 2016-05-02T18:02:58Z phoe_krk: Basically - without much thought, you usually trust your compiler on being sane and fair and not doing improper things with the programs you ask it to compile, don't you? 2016-05-02T18:03:02Z phoe_krk: So there's an exploit for that. 2016-05-02T18:03:07Z pjb: https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf 2016-05-02T18:03:23Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:03:52Z pjb: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html 2016-05-02T18:04:41Z phoe_krk: And unwinding the IRC stack to comment on the previous discussion, drmeister: a very average programmer will never poke their way into how Lisp works. They'll just write their algorithms, do their I/O, and be happy with the simple macros that are AND, WITH-OPEN-FILE or similar. They won't ever *need* to go into the weirdnesses of EVAL-WHEN. 2016-05-02T18:06:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:06:39Z phoe_krk: An average Lisper will write their own macros that abstract syntax away. But they won't really metaprogram with them; they'll be happy that they won't need to type a bunch of SETF/ASSERT lines in each function. They won't ever *need* to poke into EVAL-WHEN either way. 2016-05-02T18:07:09Z phoe_krk: And there's the passing point, where you actually begin utilizing Lisp to alter and filter the way Lisp reads, compiles, evaluates Lisp. 2016-05-02T18:07:43Z phoe_krk: Beyond that, it's dragons. 2016-05-02T18:08:20Z dto joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:08:41Z phoe_krk: So if you venture there and actually come back alive, please document it all for the sake of humanity so we have legends to keep us hopeful and knowledge to allow us make that hope come true. 2016-05-02T18:08:58Z phoe_krk: And so there's less dragons. 2016-05-02T18:10:42Z attila_lendvai: re login/compiler hack: if you make sure your system can be bootstrapped from a wide variety of computing axioms (read: based off of more than 1 programming language), then such hacks become exponentially hard 2016-05-02T18:12:32Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:13:03Z DGASAU` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:13:20Z phoe_krk: attila_lendvai: God bless Common Lisp for having ten different mutually incompatible implementations!? 2016-05-02T18:13:35Z attila_lendvai: then mix in reproducible builds, and you're pretty safe 2016-05-02T18:13:42Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:13:52Z attila_lendvai: phoe_krk: yeah, that, too 2016-05-02T18:15:20Z DGASAU` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:15:27Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:15:31Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2016-05-02T18:15:43Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:17:24Z fiveop joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:17:39Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:20:10Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-02T18:21:43Z drewc_ca quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T18:22:01Z phoe_krk: This would actually make a fairly good blogpost... brb. 2016-05-02T18:22:15Z roscoe_t` joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:22:28Z roscoe_tw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T18:22:48Z atgreen_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:23:21Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:23:34Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:23:39Z warweasle_away is now known as warweasle 2016-05-02T18:24:42Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:25:31Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:25:32Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:26:32Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T18:27:57Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-02T18:28:04Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:28:06Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:28:22Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T18:28:22Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:28:22Z Lord_of_Life quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T18:28:22Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:29:25Z roscoe_t` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T18:29:43Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T18:31:43Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:33:10Z aeth: phoe_krk: Lisp has #'disassemble so either you can spot the backdoor there or you can spot it when comparing that to the actual compiler output if disassemble lies, too. 2016-05-02T18:34:23Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2016-05-02T18:34:57Z phoe_krk: aeth: point taken, that's good. 2016-05-02T18:36:02Z aeth: It doesn't always produce assembly, though. e.g. in CLISP it just shows the byte-code. 2016-05-02T18:36:39Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:37:08Z warweasle: aeth: I wish I knew enough to play with SBCL's compiler. 2016-05-02T18:37:21Z warweasle: aeth: That would be the way to write assembly. 2016-05-02T18:37:45Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:37:55Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:39:31Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:40:44Z Xach: warweasle: see http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/ 2016-05-02T18:42:17Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T18:42:25Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:43:05Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:43:51Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2016-05-02T18:47:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:47:11Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:47:19Z warweasle: Xach: That's cool. It will take me a while to understand it. 2016-05-02T18:47:25Z warweasle is running on little sleep. 2016-05-02T18:48:53Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:49:14Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:50:59Z dto: hi Xach. we're up to 58 signups. 2016-05-02T18:51:08Z Xach: dto: for the game jam? 2016-05-02T18:51:49Z phoe_krk: God damn it. I'd participate. 2016-05-02T18:51:56Z phoe_krk: But I'm completely oblivious when it comes to how to. 2016-05-02T18:52:23Z phoe_krk: I mean, how to write any UI, IO or graphics. 2016-05-02T18:52:40Z warweasle: phoe_krk: It's pretty simple. 1: write a lisp game. 2: ?? 3: Profit! 2016-05-02T18:52:46Z aeth: phoe_krk: (1) clone https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor (2) wait a couple of days (3) benefit from all the work I did for the first 2/3 of the game jam to make my engine usable :-p 2016-05-02T18:53:05Z warweasle: phoe_krk: Maybe you can use clinch when I have the GUI stuff up and running. 2016-05-02T18:53:11Z dto: Xach yep! 2016-05-02T18:53:16Z Xach: dto: nice 2016-05-02T18:53:43Z dto: how are you? 2016-05-02T18:53:50Z Xach: mycket bra 2016-05-02T18:54:07Z warweasle has figured out how to use squirl physics library: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwGGy8vQLt4 2016-05-02T18:54:10Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:55:06Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:55:09Z dto: excellent warweasle :) 2016-05-02T18:55:20Z phoe_krk: wow! 2016-05-02T18:55:33Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T18:55:36Z dto: ive been exploding all the things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucZD-OkDehM\ 2016-05-02T18:55:41Z dto: oops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucZD-OkDehM 2016-05-02T18:55:45Z dto: spurious character 2016-05-02T18:55:56Z warweasle: dto: I like the explody animation. 2016-05-02T18:57:08Z dto: :) 2016-05-02T18:57:26Z dto: warweasle: can't wait to see the dual analog in action. the 2016-05-02T18:57:29Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:57:30Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:57:53Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:58:10Z preferslisp joined #lisp 2016-05-02T18:58:15Z dto: does the video play at 60fps for you warweasle ? 2016-05-02T18:58:31Z warweasle: dto: I don't know? 2016-05-02T18:58:46Z sebboh` is now known as sebboh 2016-05-02T18:58:56Z warweasle: dto: Do I need to tweak my settings? 2016-05-02T18:58:56Z sebboh quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T18:58:56Z sebboh joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:01:34Z EvW1 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:01:37Z dto: i'm not sure was just curious. 2016-05-02T19:01:59Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:02:00Z EvW1 is now known as EvW 2016-05-02T19:02:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:03:17Z aeth: If anyone wants to see what I accomplished so far in the game jam. https://i.imgur.com/FVOHAfP.png 2016-05-02T19:03:17Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:03:18Z warweasle: dto: I'm pretty close to getting the shield-throwing mechanic working. I just just done last night. 2016-05-02T19:03:44Z cyphase quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-02T19:03:49Z dto: nice! 2016-05-02T19:03:54Z aeth: I did turn it into a regular hexagon right after I posted that screenshot last night, though. On request. Basically -0.866 to 0.866 instead of -1.0 to 1.0 in width 2016-05-02T19:04:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:04:31Z warweasle: aeth: Cool. Is it textured or is that a gradient? 2016-05-02T19:04:33Z aeth: no one will notice the 0.0000254 I cut in my corner cutting 2016-05-02T19:04:36Z aeth: warweasle: gradient 2016-05-02T19:04:56Z aeth: warweasle: Textures are the last thing I'm doing 2016-05-02T19:05:30Z warweasle: aeth: It's subtle. I like it. I've been learning a lot about making good GUIs, and almost undetectable backgrounds really make them 'pop'. 2016-05-02T19:05:32Z aeth: roughly (1) add an ecs and fix rendering (done), (2) fix input (in progress), (3) add basic physics (soon), (4) add textures 2016-05-02T19:05:56Z aeth: although if I don't get to 4 I can still do a lot without textures 2016-05-02T19:05:59Z warweasle: aeth: ECS? I know you told me this before. 2016-05-02T19:06:24Z aeth: warweasle: I spent most of the game jam doing this: https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zombie-raptor/blob/master/entity/entity.lisp 2016-05-02T19:07:05Z aeth: warweasle: basically, everything else in an ECS game engine is a system. Systems work on signatures of components, which all entities have. So you iterate through entities and if the entity has the signature, you apply the system (e.g. rendering) to it 2016-05-02T19:07:06Z warweasle: aeth: I might need something like that. 2016-05-02T19:07:48Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:08:02Z aeth: There is no real entity object in an ECS... I currently have an entity object merely because it seems to be the easiest way to express it right now. The entity itself is just an ID and associated components, where the components actually have all the data 2016-05-02T19:08:21Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:08:25Z warweasle: aeth: I'm doing something similar. I'm using lists to store "entity" data so I don't have a "god" class. 2016-05-02T19:08:54Z aeth: I can have hash tables for each component, and key each by entity, etc., but it doesn't seem to save any time, and makes things more complicated. I might switch back to this approach later. 2016-05-02T19:09:11Z warweasle: aeth: Then I'll just program the various component states manually. 2016-05-02T19:09:27Z aeth: (By doesn't seem to save any time, I mean it seems to be a premature non-optimization that doesn't really speed anything up, and makes it harder to do SBCL optimized functions) 2016-05-02T19:09:42Z warweasle: aeth: There was a really good article about lists vs hash-tables and speed. 2016-05-02T19:09:56Z warweasle: aeth: I think if you are less than 12-15, lists are faster. 2016-05-02T19:10:37Z aeth: I don't need to optimize the ECS further, though. No time right now. I have to do input/motion 2016-05-02T19:10:59Z aeth: Technically, several intermediate forms of my engine had input/motion (not online anywhere) but they were implemented in a wrong way 2016-05-02T19:11:02Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T19:11:50Z aeth: The internals of the ECS will probably change completely a million times. 2016-05-02T19:11:54Z fafsfdfa joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:12:25Z aeth: The main point, though, is to do everything on component objects associated with an entity id, rather than to do everything on an entity. 2016-05-02T19:12:49Z warweasle: aeth: I consider the list location as the ID. 2016-05-02T19:13:45Z aeth: Right, I use an adjustable array ID as my entity ID at the moment, in part because it returns the ID when it push-extends it to add a new entity so it is quite concise at the moment. 2016-05-02T19:14:10Z aeth: It will probably be a hash table with a counter later on, though, because as entities get destroyed there will be quite a lot of nils otherwise 2016-05-02T19:14:20Z aeth: And I can recycle old IDs, but that will also require tracking too. 2016-05-02T19:14:29Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:14:40Z aeth: Basically, I'd either have to switch to a hash table or come up with an entity ID recycling scheme 2016-05-02T19:14:43Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-02T19:15:01Z aeth: I suppose I could also use lists, and remove stuff from the middle, but then an entity's ID is going to change during runtime. 2016-05-02T19:15:49Z fasfafs joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:16:14Z fasfafs: Sorry, my connection failed. Was there an answer to my question that I missed? 2016-05-02T19:16:24Z fafsfdfa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T19:16:41Z aeth: fasfafs: I think your connection failed before you asked your question 2016-05-02T19:17:21Z fasfafs: oh 2016-05-02T19:17:47Z fasfafs: What common lisp implementation generally makes the most efficient binaries? 2016-05-02T19:17:52Z safelock joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:18:11Z dlowe: efficient how? 2016-05-02T19:18:47Z fasfafs: dlowe: small 2016-05-02T19:19:13Z dlowe: small file size? small memory footprint? 2016-05-02T19:19:24Z fasfafs: Small file size 2016-05-02T19:19:34Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:19:46Z fasfafs: I just compiled a hello world file with sbcl and it was 58M 2016-05-02T19:20:07Z fasfafs: I'd like that to be more like 58K 2016-05-02T19:20:16Z dlowe: your hello world file comes bundled with its own common lisp compilre 2016-05-02T19:20:25Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-02T19:20:45Z fasfafs: oh, is there any way to avoid that? 2016-05-02T19:20:46Z dlowe: the nice thing is that it doesn't usually get more than that, because whatever app you have planned is likely to be smaller than the implementation 2016-05-02T19:20:52Z dlowe: *much more 2016-05-02T19:20:54Z warweasle: fasfafs: Some of the commercial lisps prune the parts you don't need. But you will pay for that. 2016-05-02T19:20:57Z dlowe: clisp uses a byte code that's very compact, but it's not a binary, either. 2016-05-02T19:21:14Z dlowe: in the free software world, we mostly handle this by compression or not caring 2016-05-02T19:21:36Z dlowe: ecl might produce small binaries, I think. 2016-05-02T19:21:38Z fasfafs: Ok, so my binaries will just large when using small files 2016-05-02T19:21:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:22:08Z aeth: Well, think about e.g. foo.py... You either run the hello world file with an installed python interpreter or you have to ship the whole thing with foo.py... it's just that most people have Python, Perl, and a few others installed, so people assume it's there. 2016-05-02T19:22:27Z dlowe: or glibc, for that matter. 2016-05-02T19:22:29Z aeth: It's not too different with CL even though CL is compiled 2016-05-02T19:22:37Z fasfafs: Yeah, I know D does that too. 2016-05-02T19:22:52Z dlowe: The Go programming language only produces statically linked binaries, and people complain about the file size there too 2016-05-02T19:22:54Z warweasle: fasfafs: It took me a while to understand that lisp doesn't handle distribution the same as other languages. 2016-05-02T19:23:19Z fasfafs: So I'm assuming you don't need any common lisp libraries to run a compiled common lisp file 2016-05-02T19:23:30Z dlowe: CL images are very compressible, though. You can usually get it down to 10% of its full size. 2016-05-02T19:23:42Z dlowe: well, the libraries wind up inside your file there 2016-05-02T19:23:44Z pjb: fasfafs: small file size will be generated by clisp 2016-05-02T19:23:49Z pjb: and ecl. 2016-05-02T19:24:36Z pjb: ecl doesn't provie particularly small binaries, but it can produce executables that don't include the lisp system. Instead it links with libecl.so and libc.so. 2016-05-02T19:24:40Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:24:43Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T19:24:46Z aeth: The problem with clisp is that increasingly fewer libraries run on it. 2016-05-02T19:24:52Z warweasle: Come to think, I don't even understand how licensing works for commercial lisps. 2016-05-02T19:25:07Z sjl: just switched my prolog vm to use a defstruct instead of a clos class for the main data structure and got a 2.5x speedup... not bad for an hour or so of work. 2016-05-02T19:25:11Z prxq: warweasle: you pay money, you get goodies 2016-05-02T19:25:39Z aeth: warweasle: I understand how they work, I don't understand how anyone pays them that much money when SBCL is usually good enough or better. 2016-05-02T19:25:51Z aeth: (SBCL or CCL... so it's not like there's even just one alternative) 2016-05-02T19:25:56Z warweasle: prxq: But if you distribute your app, don't you have to have the entire runtime? Isn't it really expensive for a consumer app? 2016-05-02T19:26:20Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:26:25Z prxq: they license a distributable runtine which has some additional restrictions. 2016-05-02T19:26:48Z prxq: the allergro runtime does not include the compiler unless you pay a lot extra, f.ex. 2016-05-02T19:27:02Z prxq: afaict, it is a flat rate though. 2016-05-02T19:29:08Z safelock left #lisp 2016-05-02T19:29:11Z warweasle: prxq: Right, but I don't know any other languages which do that. You buy the compiler and you can sell your work. 2016-05-02T19:29:17Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:29:20Z fe[nl]ix: aeth: at Google, lately, Python "executables" are delivered as archives that contain the whole interpreter with its libraries 2016-05-02T19:29:32Z prxq: warweasle: it's the same, really 2016-05-02T19:29:33Z PuercoPop: aeth: they have a lot of libraries. Including UI libraries 2016-05-02T19:29:36Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:29:49Z PuercoPop: and Allegro is reasonably priced at ~$400 2016-05-02T19:30:00Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:30:19Z pjb: aeth: the difference is that if there's a bug in the implementation, with commercial implementations you can just tell tem about it, and they supposedly will correct it, but if they don't or not fast enough, you don't have the freedom to correct them yourself. While with freedom implementation you have the freedom to perform the correction yourself (or ask the maintainers, or pay a consultant to do it for you, etc). 2016-05-02T19:30:45Z rme: They said image-based application delivery was a dumb idea. Now we have containers, which are somehow, by contrast, a smart idea. 2016-05-02T19:30:53Z heddwch is now known as allah 2016-05-02T19:31:01Z allah is now known as heddwch 2016-05-02T19:32:11Z coyo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:32:12Z coyo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T19:32:12Z coyo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:32:22Z fe[nl]ix: rme: yeah :D 2016-05-02T19:32:27Z warweasle: PuercoPop: What is $400? 2016-05-02T19:32:31Z algae quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-02T19:32:44Z warweasle: PuercoPop: The Development tools? 2016-05-02T19:33:15Z PuercoPop: warweasle: AllegroCL (I think but I may be miss-remembering) 2016-05-02T19:33:57Z warweasle: PuercoPop: $400 per application sold? 2016-05-02T19:34:27Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:34:30Z PuercoPop: ahh I was miss-remembering 600 is the cheapest aimed at 'academic' users 2016-05-02T19:34:44Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:34:53Z PuercoPop: warweasle: the per application licensing is Lispworks afaiu 2016-05-02T19:34:59Z vaitel: Yeah, I can't find the prices for Allegro on their site. 2016-05-02T19:35:21Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:35:29Z aeth: PuercoPop: It could be cheaper to develop your own UI library than to use a commercial Lisp for a commercial GUI application. 2016-05-02T19:35:34Z warweasle: vaitel: I wonder how a $250 game would go over on steam. 2016-05-02T19:35:42Z peey quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T19:35:43Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:35:43Z peey quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T19:35:43Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:35:58Z peey left #lisp 2016-05-02T19:36:08Z aeth: PuercoPop: and besides, at least for #lispgames you want something like an SDL+OpenGL backend, which they probably don't have 2016-05-02T19:36:08Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:36:19Z vaitel: heh, I think that if you buy the enterprise version of LispWorks it removes the per application fee. 2016-05-02T19:36:20Z warweasle: aeth: Yup. 2016-05-02T19:36:52Z mood: The Allego CL page lists "OpenGL interface" at least 2016-05-02T19:37:03Z aeth: mood: I'm betting it's legacy OpenGL though 2016-05-02T19:37:05Z aeth: like mcclim 2016-05-02T19:37:09Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T19:37:41Z mood: I have no idea, might be. Unlike most listed items, this one is not a link to more information 2016-05-02T19:37:47Z warweasle hacks out WeasleLisp in 30 minutes with a full, compiled and secure delivery system. 2016-05-02T19:37:52Z EvW quit (Quit: EvW) 2016-05-02T19:38:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:38:54Z warweasle: It's easy when you have lisp write the lisp for your lisp. 2016-05-02T19:39:56Z aeth: warweasle: There needs to be some popular Lisp that targets VHDL or Verilog... So you can write a lispm in Lisp for your Lisp. 2016-05-02T19:40:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:40:20Z warweasle: aeth: I could actually use that. 2016-05-02T19:40:21Z vaitel: I've never been too worried about the runtime size from CCL or SBCL, the other assets for any program of any real complexity are propably going to outweigh the runtime bundle by an order of magnitude. 2016-05-02T19:40:38Z warweasle: vaitel: Very true. 2016-05-02T19:40:51Z peey: Is there a non-obsolete cl library for working with xml and xpath? 2016-05-02T19:40:57Z PuercoPop: aeth: it may be cheaper due to not needing their libraries. But replicating the functionality is certainly not cheaper. AllegroCL had a 'glade-like' UI Builder. Lispworks has a prolog rule engine, CAPI, etc. 2016-05-02T19:41:07Z aeth: Unity probably will produce a larger executable than a Lisp game engine, anyway. So I'm personally not worried. 2016-05-02T19:41:07Z jackdaniel: peey: cxml and s-xml 2016-05-02T19:41:07Z warweasle: peey: I like xmls 2016-05-02T19:41:11Z jackdaniel: come to mind 2016-05-02T19:41:35Z warweasle: PuercoPop: I did like their gui builder. 2016-05-02T19:41:51Z PuercoPop: and mcclim isn't 'conceptually' legacy, only implementation wise 2016-05-02T19:41:52Z warweasle: PuercoPop: And it would work in an internal corporate environment. 2016-05-02T19:42:13Z aeth: PuercoPop: no, I mean the opengl backend for mcclim is legacy, I was told this by the maintainer iirc 2016-05-02T19:42:15Z warweasle: Is there a decent GUI implementation? 2016-05-02T19:42:25Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T19:42:42Z aeth: i.e. this: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/tree/master/Backends/OpenGL 2016-05-02T19:43:10Z aeth: Everything there is 12-15 years old, so there's a 0% chance it's anything close to modern OpenGL, since it predates modern OpenGL 2016-05-02T19:43:22Z PuercoPop: aeth: yeah, only clx works (and in OS X it had an issue with the host string iirc) 2016-05-02T19:43:42Z aeth: right, I was going to say everything except clx is legacy, but I wasn't 100% sure so I made the weaker claim 2016-05-02T19:43:47Z PuercoPop: warweasle: yeah, I guess that is their target audience 2016-05-02T19:45:23Z varjag: so guys, how would you apporach doing find-most-frequent-element in a list? 2016-05-02T19:45:38Z ggole quit 2016-05-02T19:46:07Z varjag: i.e. assuming an unsorted list with duplicated elements, find the "most duplicated" 2016-05-02T19:46:24Z Bicyclidine: loop through it making an alist of counts, then loop for that looking for the maximum. i guess. 2016-05-02T19:46:26Z varjag: i cobbled toghether a quick loop but it's fugly and perhaps not the most efficient 2016-05-02T19:46:27Z aeth: varjag: if there's not a built in, a map nil that setfs a counter might be the fastest approach 2016-05-02T19:46:55Z aeth: or obviously also loop or do or dotimes or ... 2016-05-02T19:46:57Z peey: xmls looks nice. Thanks war and jack! 2016-05-02T19:47:24Z fiveop quit 2016-05-02T19:49:30Z _sjs_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T19:49:42Z Xof: (let ((result (cons :dummy 0)) (table (make-hash-table))) (dolist (e list (car result)) (let ((c (incf (gethash e table 0)))) (when (> c (cdr result)) (setf result (cons e c)))))) ; maybe, untested 2016-05-02T19:49:47Z atgreen_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T19:49:53Z fasfafs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T19:52:02Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:53:24Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T19:55:52Z preferslisp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-02T19:56:36Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T19:56:44Z varjag: Xof: very neat 2016-05-02T19:58:55Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-02T20:01:20Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T20:05:40Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-02T20:05:54Z Lord_of_Life quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-02T20:06:04Z Lord_of_Life joined #lisp 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Has someone suffered through this project yet? 2016-05-02T21:46:18Z phoe_krk: With some effort, you can create code that will run on Scheme and Common Lisp alike. I know people who achieve this. 2016-05-02T21:46:38Z phoe_krk: But *all* lisps, now this sounds fairly insane. 2016-05-02T21:47:07Z aleogen: I'd like to use HyPy, Clojure, IronPython, OpenLisp, and Elisp, but that's far too messy (not much messier than the many projects and their basing languages I suppose) 2016-05-02T21:47:19Z aleogen: well, yeah, *all* is probably too general 2016-05-02T21:47:26Z phoe_krk: AutoLISP, EmacsLisp, Nyquist, TinyScheme, INTERLISP, ZetaLisp, Common Lisp, Scheme, Racket, Clojure, Arc, PicoLisp, EuLISP... also what you just said. 2016-05-02T21:47:41Z fe[nl]ix: aleogen: you don't need that. you merely think you want it 2016-05-02T21:47:56Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-02T21:48:01Z aleogen: fe[nl]ix: I never said I needed it... : 2016-05-02T21:48:05Z phoe_krk: Why would you think you need it, anyway? 2016-05-02T21:48:13Z aleogen: I wouldn't think I'd need it 2016-05-02T21:48:19Z aleogen: I'd simply like it 2016-05-02T21:48:19Z rpg is now known as Guest83106 2016-05-02T21:48:33Z fe[nl]ix: aleogen: I suggest re-reading your first sentence 2016-05-02T21:48:35Z phoe_krk: aleogen: I need a piece of code that works on all Algols, too. 2016-05-02T21:48:39Z aleogen: Not sure if someone already did some crazy mega lisp or something though, so thought I'd ask 2016-05-02T21:49:00Z phoe_krk: Including C, Ruby, Java, C++, Fortran, COBOL, Python, Pascal and Brainfuck. 2016-05-02T21:49:09Z angavrilov quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T21:49:16Z aleogen: fe[nl]ix: sorry, precedence. :| 2016-05-02T21:49:35Z phoe_krk: aleogen: some people tried, the effect is Common Lisp. 2016-05-02T21:50:17Z aleogen: phoe_krk: that's what I continue arriving at, but it's insufficient for the newer flavors of lisps, so need I suppose an update will be about another 20 years 2016-05-02T21:51:38Z phoe_krk: aleogen: you can't unify all the different Lisp flavors. 2016-05-02T21:52:13Z phoe_krk: Not without hurting all the ones you try to unify against their will. 2016-05-02T21:52:29Z aleogen: Pain is inevitable. 2016-05-02T21:52:32Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-02T21:52:36Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T21:52:36Z phoe_krk: aleogen: But suffering is optional. 2016-05-02T21:52:41Z aleogen: basically. 2016-05-02T21:53:21Z phoe_krk: aleogen: well, for instance, a good part of people from the Lisp-1 land will object getting converted to Lisp-2. Same thing the other way around. 2016-05-02T21:53:30Z phoe_krk: And you won't change that. 2016-05-02T21:53:53Z aleogen: Well, if I start asking people to support my endeavor, I'm going to get a lot of poison darts shot at me 2016-05-02T21:54:00Z aleogen: Better to keep my mouth shut and just do what I need 2016-05-02T21:54:03Z phoe_krk: If you feel like trying, though, I won't stop you. Just be ready to have an iron gut and an even harder behind. 2016-05-02T21:54:19Z nell is now known as nil 2016-05-02T21:54:25Z nil quit (Changing host) 2016-05-02T21:54:25Z nil joined #lisp 2016-05-02T21:54:47Z phoe_krk: And deal with the fact there's little in common between some Lisps. Even parens ain't the same. 2016-05-02T21:56:03Z jbernard- is now known as jbernard 2016-05-02T21:56:04Z aleogen: I drew out a historical map of lisp dialects and derivatives when I first encountered it. Reminded me of on of those fancy backplanes, but.. I've arrived at the same activity a few years later, with even more to add. This is getting so crazy. It's like taking all the DTDs and making sense of them. Thankfully, emacs exists. :-) 2016-05-02T21:56:05Z phoe_krk: Technically, I think you could write a Clojure macro that allows you to define functions without []s, but I don't know any use for it. 2016-05-02T21:56:36Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T21:57:27Z fe[nl]ix: you can conceivably write a compiler that parses CL, Scheme and Clojure into the same low-level AST 2016-05-02T21:57:48Z phoe_krk: aleogen: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/698157022483771392 2016-05-02T21:58:03Z fe[nl]ix: but things would get really complicated if you want to actually use it 2016-05-02T21:58:08Z phoe_krk: or basically just compiles all Lisps into one Lisp, huh. 2016-05-02T21:58:14Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T21:58:17Z phoe_krk: And later executes it. 2016-05-02T21:58:21Z aleogen: fe[nl]ix: I'm willing to look into it should you know of any references 2016-05-02T21:58:32Z phoe_krk: Which would be more of a source code translator, I think. 2016-05-02T21:58:35Z aleogen: phoe_krk: that's what I was thinking! 2016-05-02T21:58:52Z aleogen: like an llvm almost, but a little more (or less) lispy 2016-05-02T21:58:54Z fe[nl]ix: I don't know of any project to this effect 2016-05-02T21:59:40Z phoe_krk: lllm 2016-05-02T21:59:44Z aleogen: lol 2016-05-02T21:59:46Z phoe_krk: low-level lisp machine 2016-05-02T21:59:52Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T21:59:57Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-02T22:00:02Z aleogen: keeping it real ;) 2016-05-02T22:00:31Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-02T22:00:33Z aleogen: phoe_krk: I admit, this graph is much cleaner than my scribbles, but the point is so clear. Now for JS frameworks! 2016-05-02T22:01:09Z phoe_krk: aleogen: these don't need a graph, these need a pesticide. 2016-05-02T22:01:19Z phoe_krk: anyway - good night.~ 2016-05-02T22:01:28Z aleogen: rest well 2016-05-02T22:02:05Z tkd_ is now known as tkd 2016-05-02T22:02:18Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:03:42Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:04:39Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:08:44Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:10:13Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:11:52Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:13:01Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T22:16:04Z random-nick: hmm, is the separate function namespace in Common Lisp a feature or a problem? 2016-05-02T22:16:28Z mood: random-nick: Depends on who you ask, probably. I think it's an awesome feature 2016-05-02T22:16:34Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-02T22:17:24Z warweasle: random-nick: And I'm the other opinion. A single namespace simplifies code and enforces the noun/verb naming convention. 2016-05-02T22:17:50Z phoe_krk: warweasle: especially in English, where a real, *real* lot of words are both nouns and verbs. 2016-05-02T22:18:03Z mood: case in point: list 2016-05-02T22:18:12Z warweasle: phoe_krk: Don't internet me bro, because internet. 2016-05-02T22:18:28Z phoe_krk: warweasle: act? record? list? sort? 2016-05-02T22:19:04Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:19:15Z warweasle: mood: That proves my point, actually. It should be more specific: Make-list, make-alist, record-list, my-shopping-list, my-shit-list... 2016-05-02T22:19:27Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T22:20:08Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:23:39Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T22:25:45Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:26:59Z mood: warweasle: I see how you can want the function LIST to be called MAKE-LIST, but it's really nice to be able to call a variable that stores any sort of list, LIST 2016-05-02T22:27:35Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-02T22:27:36Z warweasle: mood: What about listing your results? 2016-05-02T22:27:43Z brpocock: To fuel that fire, I love love love the ability to use class-names as instance-names. (defmethod foo ((thing thing)) … ) 2016-05-02T22:27:56Z mood: warweasle: what do you mean? 2016-05-02T22:28:07Z warweasle: (defmethod this ((this this) (that this)) .... 2016-05-02T22:28:17Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T22:28:46Z warweasle: mood: Using something as generic as list could also be a verb. As to list the contents of a list. 2016-05-02T22:30:00Z mood: warweasle: Right, and when you combine that with the desire to call a list LIST, you arrive at the conclusion that multiple namespaces is a nice idea 2016-05-02T22:30:06Z brpocock: (because CL isn't a Lisp-“2” it's a Lisp-“n” where n≈8) 2016-05-02T22:32:07Z warweasle: This reminds that you can make any length sentence with only the word buffalo. 2016-05-02T22:32:39Z warweasle: Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo. 2016-05-02T22:32:45Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:32:58Z warweasle: At which point you are programming in BF 2016-05-02T22:33:14Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:33:38Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:33:42Z brpocock: “Yes, English can be weird. It can be understood through tough thorough thought, though.” — via Twitter @iowahawkblog 2016-05-02T22:33:51Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:36:03Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:37:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:39:03Z brpocock: the one argument against CL's namespaces I might have is when one could have eg a class and a function sharing a symbol-name and wants only to export one and not the other, since it's the symbol and not the object-been-named that is exported. 2016-05-02T22:39:44Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:39:49Z gabriel_laddel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T22:40:50Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:45:02Z fiddlerwoaroof exercising an AMI http://i.imgur.com/krSVYMG.png 2016-05-02T22:46:08Z Bicyclidine quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:47:12Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:47:42Z phoe_krk: one argument for CL's namespaces is that nobody prevents you from taking a different symbol and exporting only what you want, especially since you're already doing stuff that's impossible in Lisps-1. 2016-05-02T22:47:46Z phoe_krk: :P good night, everyone. 2016-05-02T22:48:21Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-02T22:48:37Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:48:53Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-02T22:49:08Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:51:00Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:51:05Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:51:52Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:53:32Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T22:57:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-02T22:57:57Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-02T22:58:36Z emaczen: What is the equivalent of parse-integer for floats/reals? 2016-05-02T22:58:46Z Bicyclidine: read 2016-05-02T22:58:46Z fiddlerwoaroof: emaczen: there's the parse-number package 2016-05-02T22:59:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 2016-05-02T23:00:15Z emaczen: there is nothing in the standard library? 2016-05-02T23:00:29Z trasto_ joined #lisp 2016-05-02T23:00:43Z trasto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T23:02:08Z ghard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-02T23:03:13Z ghard joined #lisp 2016-05-02T23:04:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: Not that I know of. 2016-05-02T23:05:00Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-02T23:06:51Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-02T23:07:12Z Bicyclidine: there isn't, except as part of read. 2016-05-02T23:07:39Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-02T23:07:43Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-02T23:07:54Z Guest83106 quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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This might be CCL specific but I'm not sure 2016-05-03T01:05:39Z Zhivago: It is standard. 2016-05-03T01:06:27Z emaczen: Okay, I think I understand then 2016-05-03T01:07:01Z emaczen: My macro is expanding an object into #<...> syntax and it doesn't know what to do 2016-05-03T01:07:17Z emaczen: This macro works in the repl though -- why? 2016-05-03T01:07:18Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:08:32Z Xach: emaczen: that's how compilation works. 2016-05-03T01:08:51Z Xach: emaczen: you can write a make-load-form method, or you can expand into something that constructs the object instead of the object itself. 2016-05-03T01:09:04Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T01:10:04Z Opodeldoc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T01:11:35Z pillton: What are you trying to do? 2016-05-03T01:15:23Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T01:18:03Z Opodeldoc joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:20:11Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T01:21:16Z Xach: pillton: I'm trying to help! 2016-05-03T01:25:19Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T01:27:13Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:29:07Z nicdev` is now known as nicdev 2016-05-03T01:44:29Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:45:34Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T01:47:49Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:48:17Z TMM quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T01:49:12Z Quadrescence joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:50:07Z zRecursive: clhs make-load-form 2016-05-03T01:50:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 2016-05-03T01:50:23Z Opodeldoc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T01:50:47Z Opodeldoc joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:52:55Z loke` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T01:53:03Z loke` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T01:58:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:00:24Z fiddlerwoaroof quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T02:00:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:01:12Z pillton: Xach: I know! I want to know why emaczen is looking at make-load-form. 2016-05-03T02:01:48Z pillton: Xach: Sorry. I did not mean to offend. 2016-05-03T02:02:03Z Xach: pillton: oh, because when you try to compile a literal object produced by a macro some lisps complain about a missing method on make-load-form. 2016-05-03T02:02:08Z Xach: pillton: I am just being silly 2016-05-03T02:04:06Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:04:52Z pillton: Xach: Oh ok. I just want to make sure that make-load-form is required first. 2016-05-03T02:05:21Z Xach: another symptom is some variation on "Can't dump function objects" 2016-05-03T02:06:15Z nil quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T02:08:31Z Opodeldoc quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T02:17:04Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:17:15Z logicmoo quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-03T02:18:05Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:18:26Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-05-03T02:19:03Z SHODAN quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T02:19:12Z dmiles_afk quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T02:21:10Z SHODAN joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:21:19Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:21:19Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-03T02:21:34Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:28:55Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:33:48Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:34:09Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:34:24Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T02:35:39Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:36:13Z test1600 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-03T02:36:51Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:37:54Z rpg is now known as rpg_ 2016-05-03T02:39:09Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T02:40:54Z SpikeMaster joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:46:37Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T02:46:59Z SpikeMaster left #lisp 2016-05-03T02:50:31Z dto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T02:52:46Z pillton: Xach: Yes. That is the problem I am expecting emaczen to talk about. 2016-05-03T02:53:32Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-03T02:53:57Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T03:00:09Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T03:02:00Z MetaHertz__ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:03:49Z Naraka joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:08:07Z rpg_ quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-03T03:10:03Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T03:12:42Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T03:13:06Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:13:19Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:17:34Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:21:37Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T03:24:20Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:32:28Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:35:30Z test1600 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T03:39:12Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T03:42:00Z jvhk joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:42:24Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T03:44:06Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-03T03:44:49Z jvhk: Has anyone here used cl-cffi-gtk? 2016-05-03T03:44:49Z jvhk: I have a test file which runs correctly when being loaded, I get the following errors when I run it as a native binary: 2016-05-03T03:44:49Z jvhk: STYLE-WARNING: Undefined alien: "" 2016-05-03T03:45:34Z Bike: you mean you saved a lisp image, and that's what doesn't work? you might have to configure it to load the foreign libraries properly 2016-05-03T03:45:50Z jvhk: I saved a lisp image 2016-05-03T03:46:07Z jvhk: The saving part works, but I get errors when I run it 2016-05-03T03:47:24Z jvhk: Just so you know, I compiled it using buildapp 2016-05-03T03:50:18Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-03T04:01:21Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-03T04:04:50Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:09:13Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:09:33Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:14:21Z constantinexvi quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:15:17Z brucem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:15:50Z trn quit (Quit: quit) 2016-05-03T04:17:01Z |3b| quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:20:23Z |3b| joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:21:18Z brucem joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:21:50Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-03T04:22:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T04:22:39Z constantinexvi joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:23:11Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:23:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:24:24Z emaczen: how do you lookup lexical binding values? On the contrary for dynamic bindings, I have used symbol-value 2016-05-03T04:25:06Z Bike: you can't, besides having the variable name in code, of c ourse 2016-05-03T04:25:19Z Zhivago: Look them up to what end? 2016-05-03T04:27:30Z loke: emaczen: You can look them up using the environment using SBCL-specific extensions. 2016-05-03T04:27:50Z Bike: uh, what? 2016-05-03T04:29:11Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:31:13Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:32:02Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-03T04:34:53Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:36:46Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:44:22Z adolf_stalin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T04:44:35Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:44:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:46:57Z emaczen: I have a nice macro for using in the REPL, but in code it is problematic because for some arguments I am starting to pass variables -- since it is a macro they are not evaluated and the macro causes errors. 2016-05-03T04:47:56Z emaczen: the variables are bound in let form and the body contains the macro call 2016-05-03T04:47:58Z Bike: well, change the macro so that the expansion evalautes, then 2016-05-03T04:48:21Z emaczen: Bike: I still need it to work how I evaluate it in the REPL currently 2016-05-03T04:48:39Z Zhivago: Perhaps pasting an example would be useful? 2016-05-03T04:48:42Z Bike: it would 2016-05-03T04:49:02Z emaczen: (let ((variable)) (macro-call ... variable)) 2016-05-03T04:49:12Z Bike: yes, we get that much 2016-05-03T04:49:18Z emaczen: In the REPL variable is usually a keyword 2016-05-03T04:49:21Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:49:53Z emaczen: Or some other self-evaluating form 2016-05-03T04:50:04Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T04:50:11Z Bike: okay, so there should be no problem having the expansion evaluate it. 2016-05-03T04:50:55Z emaczen: Bike: How do you get the expansion to evaluate it? 2016-05-03T04:50:59Z emaczen: lol 2016-05-03T04:51:23Z Bike: by not having it quoted, essentially 2016-05-03T04:51:52Z Bike: as a really stupid example, you could have (defmacro foo (x) `(print ',x)), so that (foo 4) prints 4, (foo bar) prints BAR; doesn't evaluate the form 2016-05-03T04:52:07Z Bike: change it to (defmacro foo (x) `(print ,x)), presto, (let ((x 7)) (foo x)) works 2016-05-03T04:53:58Z Bike: your amcro is probably more complicated, but i don't know what it is, so it's hard to say more 2016-05-03T04:56:01Z emaczen: can you distribute commas into a list? 2016-05-03T04:56:08Z emaczen: I think that may solve my problem 2016-05-03T04:56:20Z Bike: i don't know what you mean. 2016-05-03T04:56:40Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-03T04:56:47Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-03T04:56:59Z Bike: salutations 2016-05-03T04:57:00Z Zhivago: Does that include serial killers? 2016-05-03T04:57:36Z emaczen: (right now inside my macro, I have ',variable which then will expand to '(fn arg1 arg ... argn), I need it to expand to `(,fn ,arg1 ,arg2 ... ,argn) 2016-05-03T04:58:16Z Bike: (list ,@variable) 2016-05-03T04:59:18Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:14:44Z Naraka: Hey beach :) 2016-05-03T05:16:44Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:18:07Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T05:18:46Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T05:18:52Z beach: Naraka: Are you new here? I don't recognize your handle. 2016-05-03T05:19:03Z Naraka: Opodeldoc 2016-05-03T05:19:20Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:19:23Z beach: Ah, OK. 2016-05-03T05:22:50Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-03T05:25:59Z trn joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:29:48Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:34:34Z pillton: G'day beach. 2016-05-03T05:35:03Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:41:41Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:43:57Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T05:47:54Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:51:41Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-03T05:53:19Z jvhk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T05:57:15Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T05:57:50Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T05:58:21Z akkad hunts for a read from external process lib 2016-05-03T05:59:16Z akkad: async-shell-command for something like gzip(1) 2016-05-03T06:01:13Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-05-03T06:05:29Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-03T06:07:15Z beach 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#lisp 2016-05-03T11:05:43Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:05:46Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:06:04Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:09:33Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:26:04Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:30:35Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T11:31:23Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:35:21Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:36:18Z jchmrt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T11:36:23Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:37:13Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:37:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:38:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T11:39:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:39:39Z phoe_krk: Does anyone have experience with outputting ANSI escape codes into a terminal from within Lisp? 2016-05-03T11:40:07Z DGASAU: It is quite bad idea irrespectively of programming language. 2016-05-03T11:40:11Z phoe_krk: They seem to work save for one thing - moving the cursor horizontally. ^[[C, for example, fails for me. 2016-05-03T11:40:53Z phoe_krk: DGASAU: I'm willing to take the risk. 2016-05-03T11:41:27Z DGASAU: If you're not going to reimplement a good chunk of termcap or terminfo, you're going to produce a number of bugs. 2016-05-03T11:42:16Z phoe_krk: DGASAU: I care less about bugs at the moment, I care more about the fact an escape sequence I expect to work - doesn't. 2016-05-03T11:43:28Z DGASAU: Does it work when you use tput(1)? 2016-05-03T11:44:26Z phoe_krk: Yes. "tput cup 5 5" behaves as expected. 2016-05-03T11:44:52Z phoe_krk: And what I'm doing is (format t "~C[~D;~Df" (code-char 27) row column) where row and column are integers. 2016-05-03T11:46:06Z phoe_krk: And I'd find it rather weird to call an external program like tput on each time I'd like to change my cursor position. 2016-05-03T11:47:06Z DGASAU: The question now is what sequence it generates. 2016-05-03T11:47:08Z Xach: phoe_krk: it worked for me last time i messed with it, but it's been a while. 2016-05-03T11:49:15Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-03T11:49:15Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T11:49:15Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:50:04Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:50:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:50:30Z DGASAU: phoe_krk: now you can consult your termcap file and check what it uses for "le" or whatever you want. 2016-05-03T11:50:34Z phoe_krk: DGASAU: ... 2016-05-03T11:50:38Z phoe_krk: Disregard me, I'm stupid. 2016-05-03T11:50:53Z DGASAU: In particular, for me, xterm's "le" is just "^h". 2016-05-03T11:50:57Z phoe_krk: Calling (terpri) right after (move-cursor) doesn't really do much good. XD 2016-05-03T11:51:01Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T11:51:01Z brucem joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:51:02Z phoe_krk: At least, well, in my case. 2016-05-03T11:51:42Z phoe_krk: So, um, basically, the escape code *does* work. It's my fault. 2016-05-03T11:52:37Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:57:56Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T11:59:47Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-03T11:59:49Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:00:42Z Xach: how so? 2016-05-03T12:01:41Z phoe_krk: I was sending the escape code, right. 2016-05-03T12:01:50Z phoe_krk: And the cursor was set in the proper position. 2016-05-03T12:02:08Z phoe_krk: And then a function I wrote sent a (terpri), resetting the whole thing to the start of the next line. 2016-05-03T12:02:24Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:05:56Z linuxuser9000 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T12:07:33Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T12:09:21Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T12:11:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T12:11:56Z MadaraUchiha joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:12:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:12:32Z MadaraUchiha: Hey guys, reading some source code from Practical Common Lisp and I ran into this 2016-05-03T12:12:41Z MadaraUchiha: (defmacro with-gensyms ((&rest names) &body body) `(let ,(loop for n in names collect `(,n (make-symbol ,(string n)))) ,@body)) 2016-05-03T12:13:08Z MadaraUchiha: Any particular reason to use MAKE-SYMBOL over GENSYM in this case? 2016-05-03T12:13:36Z igam`: MadaraUchiha: this avoids incrementing a counter and inserting it in the symbol name. 2016-05-03T12:13:47Z igam`: (list (gensym "FOO") (make-symbol "FOO")) #| --> (#:foo9721 #:foo) |# 2016-05-03T12:13:55Z MadaraUchiha: But isn't the point to avoid naming collisions? 2016-05-03T12:14:05Z MadaraUchiha: Doesn't that introduce collision potential? 2016-05-03T12:14:12Z igam`: Both gensym and make-symbol avoid it. 2016-05-03T12:14:19Z igam`: By creating new symbols. 2016-05-03T12:14:23Z MadaraUchiha: How do you avoid it without the counter? 2016-05-03T12:14:41Z MadaraUchiha: What would happen if #:foo were to already be defined? 2016-05-03T12:14:55Z igam`: MadaraUchiha: you must distinguish the name of the variables (or functions) which are symbols, from the name of the symbols which are strings. 2016-05-03T12:15:01Z mood: make-symbol creates an uninterned symbol, so every instance of #:foo created by it is different 2016-05-03T12:15:06Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:15:16Z igam`: MadaraUchiha: you can have different variables named by different symbols with the same symbol name. 2016-05-03T12:15:41Z MadaraUchiha: Example? 2016-05-03T12:16:12Z MadaraUchiha: (I'm currently re-reading Practical Common Lisp, I'm a beginner at best) 2016-05-03T12:17:06Z igam`: MadaraUchiha: for example, (let ((p1::a 1) (p2::a 2)) (+ p1::a p2::a)) two variables, two symbols, a single symbol-name: (mapcar 'symbol-name '(p1::a p2::a)) #| --> ("A" "A") |# 2016-05-03T12:17:27Z igam`: MadaraUchiha: this example uses two different interned symbols. 2016-05-03T12:17:35Z igam`: With uninterned symbols: 2016-05-03T12:18:27Z igam`: (let ((#1=#:a 1) (#2=#:a 2)) (list (+ #1# #2#) (mapcar 'symbol-name '(#1# #2#)))) #| --> (3 ("A" "A")) |# 2016-05-03T12:19:01Z igam`: #:a reads a symbol created with (make-symbol (string-upcase "a")) #| --> #:A |# 2016-05-03T12:19:49Z Guest4786 is now known as xristos 2016-05-03T12:19:56Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T12:19:56Z xristos joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:20:07Z algae joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:20:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T12:20:38Z igam`: MadaraUchiha: now, in the case of the with-gensym macro above, since we don't expect the user to give the same name repeated, there's no reason to give the symbol incremented names. This would serve only if you wanted to print the expression with different symbols having the same name. 2016-05-03T12:21:09Z igam`: (let ((g1 (gensym "FOO")) (g2 (gensym "FOO"))) (print (list '+ g1 g2))) #| (+ #:foo9731 #:foo9732) |# 2016-05-03T12:21:20Z MadaraUchiha: I see 2016-05-03T12:21:35Z igam`: But even with make-symbol, we can print and distinguish by binding *print-circle* to t. 2016-05-03T12:21:46Z MadaraUchiha: Are there any consequences to increasing the gensym counter? 2016-05-03T12:21:54Z MadaraUchiha: Aside from it producing less readable symbols? 2016-05-03T12:22:25Z igam`: (let ((g1 (make-symbol "FOO")) (g2 (make-symbol "FOO")) (*print-circle* t)) (print (list '+ g1 g2 g2))) #| (+ #:foo #1=#:foo #1#) |# 2016-05-03T12:23:39Z igam`: incrementing a counter progressively uses more memory. But given that the life expectancy of the universe is only 10^200 seconds, and you can increment it only by 1^9 per second, you can use at most 209 bits of memory until the end of the universe, so it should be ok. 2016-05-03T12:24:21Z MadaraUchiha: Heh 2016-05-03T12:24:22Z MadaraUchiha: OK 2016-05-03T12:24:31Z igam`: well, I mean (log2 10^209) bits. (log 1d209 2) #| --> 694.2829718314588D0 |# 695 bits. 2016-05-03T12:25:04Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-03T12:25:26Z igam`: Also, the last gensym names will be 200+ character long… 2016-05-03T12:30:11Z Dyrcona joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:30:19Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T12:31:00Z Dyrcona left #lisp 2016-05-03T12:36:38Z Gentio joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:40:11Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:42:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:42:33Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T12:42:33Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:43:42Z naterubin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:43:46Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:46:36Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:50:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:52:25Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-03T12:58:50Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:00:57Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T13:02:46Z flip214: igam`: don't forget Moore's Law, and the power consumption ;) 2016-05-03T13:03:12Z flip214: igam`: you can also use a rolling-around 32bit counter, as the name is meaningless anyway. 2016-05-03T13:03:58Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:05:04Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:05:44Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:06:14Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:09:30Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:09:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:10:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:11:23Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:19:09Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:22:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:22:27Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:22:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:22:58Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:30:46Z m0li quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-05-03T13:32:23Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:32:29Z sjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T13:32:34Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:33:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:33:46Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:37:53Z igam`: *gensym-counter* is a non-negative (mathematical) integer, and gensym is specified to increment it, not to increment it modulo something. 2016-05-03T13:37:57Z igam`: "If and only if no explicit suffix is supplied, *gensym-counter* is incremented after it is used. " 2016-05-03T13:39:03Z igam`: Of course, you can use your own: (gensym (setf *circular-counter* (mod (1+ *circular-counter*) #.(1+ most-positive-fixnum)))) 2016-05-03T13:39:06Z Zhivago: Yes. I imagine that might be somewhat astounding. 2016-05-03T13:39:25Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:40:24Z igam`: But the funny thing here is that using 32-bit modulo counters loop easily, while using integer counter doesn't easily go to outlandish values. 2016-05-03T13:44:58Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:46:34Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:49:52Z Gentio quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T13:53:40Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:54:32Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-03T13:55:44Z Cymew quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-03T13:56:04Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T13:58:03Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T13:59:18Z Guthur: cffi-toolchain seems to have issues compiling, possible UIOP has change underneath it 2016-05-03T13:59:27Z Guthur: anyone aware of a quick fix 2016-05-03T13:59:41Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:00:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T14:04:12Z phoe_krk: MadaraUchiha: (eq (make-symbol "OMG") (make-symbol "OMG")) ;=> NIL 2016-05-03T14:04:22Z phoe_krk: you might want to consider that!~ 2016-05-03T14:04:23Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:06:04Z Guthur: ok, upgrading ASDF to the most recent from github solved the issue 2016-05-03T14:06:34Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T14:11:04Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T14:11:50Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:13:35Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:20:40Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:21:25Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-03T14:21:43Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:22:08Z ghard quit (Read error: Network is unreachable) 2016-05-03T14:23:03Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:24:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:25:59Z Munksgaard left #lisp 2016-05-03T14:32:49Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T14:34:56Z ghard joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:36:00Z akkad: (defvar foo (cl-json:decode-json (external-program:run "zcat" '("~/test.json.gz") :output *standard-output*)));; is there a more portable way to do this cleaner? 2016-05-03T14:36:58Z phoe_krk: akkad: uiop:run-program 2016-05-03T14:37:25Z Xach: akkad: you could use a gunzipping library like chipz or deflate instead. 2016-05-03T14:37:49Z akkad: Xach: yeah, I've been using those, just very slow. by like 3x 2016-05-03T14:38:38Z akkad: not soo bad on sbcl though. it seems to handle it much better 2016-05-03T14:39:40Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:41:24Z huitzilopochtli quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T14:41:31Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:42:05Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T14:42:05Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-03T14:45:11Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-05-03T14:49:57Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:03:07Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:04:26Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:05:05Z madnificent joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:05:27Z spacebat quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-03T15:05:46Z spacebat1 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:09:02Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:11:18Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:12:12Z shlomo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:13:46Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:15:23Z madnificent quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-03T15:19:56Z shlomo joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:21:12Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:23:38Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T15:31:23Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T15:33:50Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T15:37:15Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T15:40:15Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:40:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:41:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:41:38Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:42:04Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:42:13Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:44:21Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T15:45:55Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: You may find this of use https://github.com/mrkkrp/cl-ansi-term 2016-05-03T15:46:04Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:46:13Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:48:16Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: <3 2016-05-03T15:50:01Z igam`: phoe_krk: or you might prefer to use the complete set of ECMA-048. 2016-05-03T15:50:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T15:50:06Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-03T15:50:15Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-05-03T15:50:34Z igam`: phoe_krk: com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.ecma048 2016-05-03T15:50:40Z mood: good evening beach 2016-05-03T15:50:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I am trying to figure out the syntax to the make-array function 2016-05-03T15:51:19Z Bike: clhs make-array 2016-05-03T15:51:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 2016-05-03T15:51:22Z phoe_krk: Hey beach! 2016-05-03T15:51:23Z Bike: what are you having trouble with? 2016-05-03T15:51:29Z phoe_krk: igam`: thanks! 2016-05-03T15:51:32Z John[Lisbeth]: mainly I don't know what the first argument is for 2016-05-03T15:51:58Z beach: clhs make-array 2016-05-03T15:51:58Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm 2016-05-03T15:52:15Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Read that page. 2016-05-03T15:52:27Z beach: It says DIMENSIONS. 2016-05-03T15:52:30Z Bike: the first argument is the dimensions of the array 2016-05-03T15:52:47Z ryan_vw` is now known as ryan_vw 2016-05-03T15:52:59Z beach: Then it says "dimensions -- a designator for a list of valid array dimensions. 2016-05-03T15:54:09Z John[Lisbeth]: Why can't I do (make-array (1 1 1) 1) 2016-05-03T15:54:11Z moore33: beach: Hey beach! 2016-05-03T15:54:19Z Bike: because make-array is a function. 2016-05-03T15:54:19Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Then in the glossary it says: list designator n. a designator for a list of objects; that is, an object that denotes a list and that is one of: a non-nil atom (denoting a singleton list whose element is that non-nil atom) or a proper list (denoting itself). 2016-05-03T15:54:22Z igam`: becauase (1 1 1) is not a designator for a list of valid array dimensions. 2016-05-03T15:54:26Z Bike: so the arguments are evaluated normally 2016-05-03T15:54:32Z Bike: and (1 1 1) is an illegal function call 2016-05-03T15:54:36Z igam`: (1 1 1) is an invalid form, producing a PROGRAM-ERROR at compilation-time. 2016-05-03T15:55:05Z phoe_krk: '(1 1 1) 2016-05-03T15:55:26Z igam`: or (list a b c) 2016-05-03T15:55:40Z John[Lisbeth]: (make-array '(1 1 1) '(1)) 2016-05-03T15:55:52Z Bike: ok, so now the second argument is wrong. 2016-05-03T15:56:14Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: What do you think you are doing with that second argument? 2016-05-03T15:56:18Z Bike: you can see, if you look at the clhs page, that make-array takes one required argument - the dimensions - and then keyword arguments. 2016-05-03T15:56:22Z John[Lisbeth]: put 1 in it 2016-05-03T15:56:31Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Did you read that page? 2016-05-03T15:56:40Z John[Lisbeth]: It does not make sense to me 2016-05-03T15:56:41Z beach: Does it say that there is a second argument? 2016-05-03T15:56:56Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't make heads or tails of the argument spec 2016-05-03T15:57:04Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: What do you think the &key means in that parameter list? 2016-05-03T15:57:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I do not know what it means 2016-05-03T15:57:21Z beach: Amazing. 2016-05-03T15:57:27Z Bike: ok, so you need to go back to basics. 2016-05-03T15:57:41Z John[Lisbeth]: nah I just need a valid array syntax 2016-05-03T15:57:42Z Bike: you should read Practical Common Lisp or something to get a handle on things. 2016-05-03T15:58:05Z akkad: or clr 2016-05-03T15:58:06Z John[Lisbeth]: Perhaps I'll just go read the source to make-array 2016-05-03T15:58:14Z phoe_krk: ... 2016-05-03T15:58:22Z Bike: No, listen, this is not a trivial problem. It's like you're trying to do arithmetic without knowing what addition is. You're not going to fix it by looking extra carefully at the definition of multiplication. 2016-05-03T15:58:27Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: That's not true, because you keep comping back here for elementary questions. At some point you need to understand the basics so that you don't need to ask such questions. 2016-05-03T15:58:38Z phoe_krk: If you don't know what &KEY means, you won't understand the source code to MAKE-ARRAY. 2016-05-03T15:58:46Z Bike: heh, that too. 2016-05-03T15:59:00Z phoe_krk: Not just because it uses &KEY itself. 2016-05-03T15:59:11Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: really, there are nice introductory materials like mentioned Practical Common Lisp 2016-05-03T15:59:18Z jackdaniel: reading it will *save* your time, not the opposite 2016-05-03T15:59:29Z beach: And ours. 2016-05-03T15:59:29Z jackdaniel: hey all o/ 2016-05-03T15:59:31Z phoe_krk: But mostly because lack of this piece of knowledge in you tells me you might lack other important basics. 2016-05-03T15:59:33Z jackdaniel: beach: indeed :) 2016-05-03T15:59:52Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:00:10Z akkad: and while your at it, Marcel Proust has a good primer on CL, and other things forgotten that wont take long to read 2016-05-03T16:00:14Z PuercoPop: John[Lisbeth]: a 1 in which of its dimensions? There are multiple examples of a call to make-array in the clhs page 2016-05-03T16:00:43Z akkad: John[Lisbeth]: http://linbsd.org/clhs.org 2016-05-03T16:00:45Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:01:00Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:01:11Z rpg: Anyone know if decLt is installable with Quicklisp? I don't /think/ so, but hoping I'm wrong. 2016-05-03T16:01:18Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:01:30Z beach: moore33: Hey. Looking forward to seeing the documentation. 2016-05-03T16:02:02Z moore33: beach: Me too. 2016-05-03T16:02:05Z Bike: rpg: nothing in apropos for "dec", so i would guess no. 2016-05-03T16:02:33Z PuercoPop: Bike: I get net.didierverna.declt 2016-05-03T16:02:44Z Bike: ...oops. 2016-05-03T16:02:46Z beach: moore33: Heh! 2016-05-03T16:02:49Z PuercoPop: from (ql:system-apropos-list "decl") 2016-05-03T16:03:03Z Bike: yeah, you're right, and that matches github. that what you want rpg? 2016-05-03T16:03:16Z rpg: Thanks, PuercoPop ! 2016-05-03T16:03:16Z moore33: beach: Codex is fairly fragile, requires doc strings for all slots of classes that are included in the main documentation, even if the slots are not external symbols. 2016-05-03T16:03:22Z rpg: Yes, worked for me. 2016-05-03T16:03:41Z moore33: beach: It's taken a bit longer than I thought to document 4 years of on-again / off-again work :) 2016-05-03T16:03:52Z beach: moore33: Are you trying to generate documentation from docstrings? 2016-05-03T16:04:04Z moore33: beach: Some of it, yes. 2016-05-03T16:04:17Z beach: Hmm. 2016-05-03T16:04:55Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:04:55Z moore33: beach: For example, the documentation that goes with specific classes and functions. But there's a lot of other prose too. 2016-05-03T16:05:05Z beach: OK. 2016-05-03T16:07:34Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:08:30Z rpg: moore33: Came into the middle of this, but what I did catch sounds interesting -- need to get better ASDF documentation. Current manual is only hand-written, and UIOP is completely undocumented. 2016-05-03T16:10:19Z beach: rpg: There is nothing wrong with "hand-written" documentation. On the contrary. 2016-05-03T16:10:38Z rpg: beach: Yes, but I would really like to be able to pull the docstrings into the documentation. 2016-05-03T16:10:48Z jackdaniel: rpg: do you plan to write a specification for ASDF and UIOP? with clearly stated goals and API? 2016-05-03T16:11:10Z rpg: jackdaniel: Any time you can find me a grant or contract to pay for it. Otherwise, no. 2016-05-03T16:11:32Z rpg: I'd settle for documenting the API 2016-05-03T16:11:43Z beach: rpg: The usual result of wanting to do that is an abbreviated documentation without description of concepts, plus that the code becomes unreadable to the maintainer because it now contains information meant for the user instead. 2016-05-03T16:12:03Z moore33: rpg: I'm using Codex, https://github.com/CommonDoc/codex. It's OK, but I suspect I'm the only user other than the author. 2016-05-03T16:12:37Z rpg: beach: I'd like to be able to do what SBCL does, and be able to pull docstrings into Texinfo @defun, @variable, etc. in primarily hand-written documentation. 2016-05-03T16:12:47Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T16:12:55Z moore33: rpg: I think for the next version of my docs I'm going to try using Emacs org-mode plus babel sections to pull the doc strings out of a running Lisp. 2016-05-03T16:13:05Z rpg: beach: The day of UIOP manual will never come if I have to do all that stuff by hand. 2016-05-03T16:13:16Z mach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T16:13:33Z beach: The docstrings were presumably written by hand. 2016-05-03T16:13:40Z rpg: beach: Yes, but not by me. 2016-05-03T16:13:44Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:13:46Z beach: I see, yes. 2016-05-03T16:13:58Z rpg: beach: I think you are falling into the "better is the enemy of the good" trap 2016-05-03T16:14:11Z moore33: beach: I'm interested in the docstring route in part for the discipline of writing / updating them as I write new code... 2016-05-03T16:14:33Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:14:48Z rpg: great manual > good manual > no manual ; effort(great manual) > available-part(effort(rpg)) 2016-05-03T16:16:34Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:16:36Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T16:16:40Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:16:44Z rpg: one thing that bugs me is that there seems to be no protocol for docstring format. Word wrap? 80 char width? paragraph marks? Something markdown like we could use to indicate a desire for hyperlink? 2016-05-03T16:16:57Z marvi quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T16:16:57Z marvi joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:16:58Z rpg: elisp has some protocol we could probably adopt 2016-05-03T16:17:00Z beach: My experience is that docstrings that are physically located where the code is tend to be short, simply because they represent noise to the maintainer. Furthermore, since no sophisticated formating can be done, they are often inadequate. Because they are short, they are also insufficient. But yeah, I can see that it is better than nothing. 2016-05-03T16:17:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:17:34Z moore33: beach: I'm using Codex markup in my docstrings, though not for much yet. 2016-05-03T16:18:21Z moore33: brb 2016-05-03T16:18:27Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-03T16:18:45Z PuercoPop: beach: clojure switches the place of the docstring with the lambda-list so a long docstring does impede the person writing the function the lambda-list. 2016-05-03T16:19:17Z beach: PuercoPop: Common Lisp has (setf documentation) that can be used to separate the code from the docstring. 2016-05-03T16:20:23Z beach: I think using (SETF DOCUMENTATION) is a significant step in the direction of avoiding noise for the maintainer. 2016-05-03T16:21:04Z beach: Failing that, I think one should at least use #.(format nil ....) so that it becomes unnecessary to put docstring text in the leftmost column. 2016-05-03T16:21:24Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:21:32Z PuercoPop: true, there other solutions. Ej cl-annot provides a reader macro so @documentation predecedes the defun. It is one of the better things of cl-annot 2016-05-03T16:23:17Z beach: I maintain that I think it is a bad idea to mix docstring (i.e., information meant for the user) with code (i.e., information meant for the maintainer). The result is often skimpy documentation with no description of concepts (because that information can't be naturally attached to any code element) and noise for the maintainer. 2016-05-03T16:24:52Z beach: But, I agree with rpg in that, if such things already exists, and they were written by someone else, one might as well take advantage of them to avoid too much work. The result won't be perfect, but better than nothing. And it will save a lot of work. 2016-05-03T16:24:55Z rpg: beach: The elisp ones are better. 2016-05-03T16:24:56Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:25:37Z rpg: beach: The flipside to your argument is that if you don't mix docstring and code, the documentation never keeps up with the code. 2016-05-03T16:25:57Z rpg: I think elisp does a reasonable job with this. 2016-05-03T16:26:05Z beach: rpg: I am aware of that, yes. I have no good solution. At least not yet. 2016-05-03T16:26:07Z rpg: Not perfect, but.... 2016-05-03T16:26:21Z rpg: beach: I wonder if judicious use of folding in emacs would help. 2016-05-03T16:27:02Z rpg: I have been considering hacking a little folding into SLIME that would let users fold away logging function calls, which are necessary, but often really obscure the structure of an algorithm 2016-05-03T16:27:09Z beach: It solves the noise problem, but it doesn't solve the lack of concepts problem. 2016-05-03T16:27:58Z rpg: You're right that it's just user documentation, but then, that's what I want in the manual. 2016-05-03T16:27:59Z reb: Go use documentation is pretty good ... they mix code and docs. 2016-05-03T16:28:00Z moore33: beach, rpg: I think docstrings lend themselves to the ANSI-spec style specification of every argument and option, but more expository writing has to go somewhere else, as do examples. 2016-05-03T16:28:18Z rpg: moore33: I think we all agree about that. 2016-05-03T16:28:38Z moore33: rpg: Well then, no problem :) 2016-05-03T16:28:41Z rpg: the problem is that existing doc libraries focus on grabbing docstrings, but don't support the human-authoring part of the process. 2016-05-03T16:28:55Z beach: Exactly. 2016-05-03T16:29:13Z moore33: rpg: That's why I got interested in Codex. 2016-05-03T16:29:17Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:29:32Z rpg: Hm. Org-mode seems to have a texinfo backend.... 2016-05-03T16:29:42Z rpg: http://orgmode.org/worg/exporters/ox-overview.html 2016-05-03T16:29:56Z rpg: That might make the babel + org idea more appealing. 2016-05-03T16:30:02Z moore33: rpg: I think org mode has a lot of potential... 2016-05-03T16:30:37Z beach: And the other thing that hampers good documentation is the focus on input syntax. It seems whenever someone makes a choice for documentation, then the vast majority of other people disagree about that choice. 2016-05-03T16:31:21Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:31:53Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T16:31:53Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:32:07Z rpg: beach: Plus the proliferation of document-generating libraries. 2016-05-03T16:32:16Z beach: Yep. 2016-05-03T16:35:20Z beach: Let me repeat this once more: I think it would be great to agree on some kind of CLOS protocol(s) for documentation, i.e. a bunch of classes and generic functions for manipulating a graph of documentation in the image of a Common Lisp system. 2016-05-03T16:35:21Z beach: Then, we could save that graph in a READable format, and people who are particularly attached to an input syntax can write a parser for that syntax that generates the graph fragement. 2016-05-03T16:35:39Z beach: CCL-doc is a good start, but incomplete. eudoxia also started a suggestion. 2016-05-03T16:39:24Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:40:06Z beach now regrets starting this rant again, and he should just learn to be quiet. 2016-05-03T16:40:48Z moore33: beach: It's a good rant. 2016-05-03T16:41:01Z beach: Thanks [I guess]. 2016-05-03T16:41:20Z moore33: I just want to write in LaTeX, but the world seems to be passing me by... 2016-05-03T16:41:31Z beach: I know the feeling. 2016-05-03T16:41:55Z rme: He who writes the documentation format gets to choose the format. 2016-05-03T16:42:01Z warweasle: I had high hopes for a lisp markup...which would make a little more sense than LateX 2016-05-03T16:42:02Z Don_John joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:42:10Z moore33: rme: Indeed. 2016-05-03T16:42:20Z Don_John quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-03T16:42:24Z beach: rme: But the price can be high. Like I said, the majority will then not even contemplate touching it. 2016-05-03T16:42:39Z rme: I could respond that nobody does anyway. 2016-05-03T16:42:52Z beach: Very true that. 2016-05-03T16:42:57Z rme: But that's perhaps too cynical. 2016-05-03T16:43:04Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_brb 2016-05-03T16:43:09Z beach: That makes two (at least) of us then. 2016-05-03T16:43:19Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-03T16:43:42Z moore33: rme: By the way, does CCL have who-calls info? I did scan the manual and didn't see how to turn it on. 2016-05-03T16:44:14Z rme: Yeah, it does. I think it's (require 'xref), but let me check. 2016-05-03T16:44:25Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:44:58Z moore33: Was missing that from sbcl. 2016-05-03T16:45:03Z beach: Anyway, time to go fix dinner. 2016-05-03T16:45:06Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-03T16:45:13Z moore33: beach: See you! 2016-05-03T16:46:28Z rme: moredhel: I think things like C-c C-w C-c should work in slime already. 2016-05-03T16:46:39Z rme: sorry moredhel, I meant moore33 2016-05-03T16:46:41Z badkins_ is now known as badkins 2016-05-03T16:47:06Z moore33: rme: With (require 'xref)? I'll give it a try. 2016-05-03T16:47:31Z moore33: Give it a try later, that is :) 2016-05-03T16:47:45Z rme: Naturally. 2016-05-03T16:47:53Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-03T16:48:57Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:50:17Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:54:09Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-03T16:54:09Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:54:51Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T16:54:58Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:54:59Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:55:09Z schoppenhauer quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-03T16:57:09Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-03T16:58:14Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T16:59:10Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:00:28Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:04:06Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:04:49Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:06:15Z warweasle_brb is now known as warweasle 2016-05-03T17:08:08Z reb: beach: Go documentation web pages are reasonably nice and are produced from comments in the code that use no markup. 2016-05-03T17:09:57Z igam` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:10:01Z reb: The hard part it seems is getting consistency across a wide variety of libraries and actually making the web documentation. 2016-05-03T17:10:55Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:11:13Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-03T17:15:57Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:16:52Z sword`` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:16:58Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:18:47Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:23:22Z jasom: reb: there is a tiny amount of markup in godoc 2016-05-03T17:23:25Z moredhel: rme, no worries :) 2016-05-03T17:23:35Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T17:23:35Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:23:42Z jasom: blank-lines delineate paragraphs and relative indent indicates preformatted text 2016-05-03T17:26:28Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:29:25Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:30:05Z lerax joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:33:48Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:34:14Z zkat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:34:49Z bbz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:35:23Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:35:24Z mjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:35:25Z ggherdov quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:36:34Z jtz quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:36:39Z rme left #lisp 2016-05-03T17:36:48Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:37:04Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:37:56Z bbz_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:38:27Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:39:06Z zkat joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:39:30Z warweasle: zkat: Hey, zkat. I think I'm using your Squirl library. 2016-05-03T17:39:45Z srcerer quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 45.0.1/20160315153207]) 2016-05-03T17:40:09Z jtz joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:41:25Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:42:49Z DeadTrickster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T17:44:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:44:26Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:45:54Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:48:15Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:49:53Z ggherdov joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:49:58Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:51:22Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:52:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T17:54:52Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T17:56:04Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T17:56:36Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2016-05-03T17:57:30Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:03:07Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2016-05-03T18:04:47Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:06:11Z TMM joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:07:34Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:09:14Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:09:48Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-03T18:11:17Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:11:23Z Cxcf: To those using SLIME. After I write my functions, I C-x C-e to load them. But after I quit slime, I try to reload them with M-x load-file and it doesn't work. Is there a better way to do it? 2016-05-03T18:11:28Z Nycatelos left #lisp 2016-05-03T18:12:14Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:12:48Z mood: Cxcf: load-file is for emacs lisp, try slime-load-file 2016-05-03T18:13:06Z Bike: after you quit slime there is no common lisp involved 2016-05-03T18:13:33Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:13:49Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:14:15Z Cxcf: mood: worked like a charm:) thanks 2016-05-03T18:14:22Z Cxcf: and Bike, whawt do you mean common lisp involved? 2016-05-03T18:14:45Z Bike: i mean, if you quit slime, there's no longer a lisp implementation connected, so nothing's going to work, obviously 2016-05-03T18:14:50Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2016-05-03T18:15:14Z Cxcf: gotcha 2016-05-03T18:16:23Z Cxcf: And I'm trying to get more familiar with the debugger. Is there a way of tracing back to the line number where the error was found? 2016-05-03T18:16:52Z Cxcf: I tried the 0: option on Backtrace but it didn't do anything 2016-05-03T18:17:41Z Bike: hit "v" on the frame you want source for 2016-05-03T18:17:44Z Bike: i think 2016-05-03T18:17:49Z mood: yes, v 2016-05-03T18:18:12Z drmeister: Is there anything wrong with this as a LAMBDA macro? 2016-05-03T18:18:13Z drmeister: (defmacro lambda (&rest body) `(function (lambda ,@body))) 2016-05-03T18:18:34Z drmeister: It's giving me trouble when I compile it with a compiler that I compiled with a compiler. 2016-05-03T18:18:48Z Bike: it should work, but it's maybe low on debugging information and so forth 2016-05-03T18:19:17Z drmeister: It's worked in the past - I suspect some horrible low level bug (sigh). 2016-05-03T18:19:22Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T18:19:25Z Bike: what kind of trouble is apparent? 2016-05-03T18:19:38Z phoe_krk: drmeister: FUNCTION is a special operator that should munch the inner LAMBDA apart, correct? 2016-05-03T18:19:58Z phoe_krk: Because this does look somewhat sane. 2016-05-03T18:20:00Z Bike: it won't macroexpand again, if that's what you mean 2016-05-03T18:20:08Z phoe_krk: Bike: yes, precisely. 2016-05-03T18:20:41Z Bike: it's perfectly sane. for comparison, sbcl's is (defmacro lambda (&whole whole args &body body) (declare (ignore args body)) `#',whole), basically the same 2016-05-03T18:21:03Z drmeister: I don't have any backtraces to dig the error out of. I cleared them all. It will be about an hour before it gets back to that stage. 2016-05-03T18:22:04Z drmeister: My current understanding is that I have a macro-function that takes no arguments. But that's insane because macro-functions take two arguments. 2016-05-03T18:22:26Z Bike: that suggests problems that have nothing to do with that particular macro, yes 2016-05-03T18:22:28Z drmeister: That's why I think there's a lower level problem. 2016-05-03T18:22:46Z Bike: i don't suppose your definition of "defmacro" got fucked up somewhere 2016-05-03T18:23:08Z drmeister: However, when it crashes and I start compiling again, starting on that file - it compiles through fine. 2016-05-03T18:23:11Z drmeister: Grrrr 2016-05-03T18:23:33Z Bike: and it works with other macro definitions? 2016-05-03T18:23:48Z Cxcf: Bike: mood thanks:) 2016-05-03T18:23:55Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T18:23:56Z phoe_krk: So there's at least a workaround right now. If t helps anything. 2016-05-03T18:24:40Z drmeister: it doesn't have much of a chance at this point. It's bclasp+Cleavir compiling cclasp. 2016-05-03T18:26:20Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-03T18:28:14Z jasom: drmeister: if you aren't busy, I was curious about two things: 1) How does clasp get its GC roots and 2) How does it implement non-local returns 2016-05-03T18:28:54Z jasom: I ask because the way those two things are typically implemented prevents most existing lisps from being ported to emscripten 2016-05-03T18:29:17Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:29:18Z drmeister: Hang on. 2016-05-03T18:29:22Z jasom: (I did get abcl to run under an emscripten implementation of a jvm, but it took 6 hours for the repl to come up) 2016-05-03T18:29:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:30:12Z drmeister: The trouble probably has to start here: 2016-05-03T18:30:13Z drmeister: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp/blob/dev38/src/lisp/kernel/lsp/evalmacros.lsp#L21 2016-05-03T18:30:47Z drmeister: Farther down is the (defmacro LAMBDA ...) 2016-05-03T18:31:00Z drmeister: And it appears to fail on the PSETQ macro. 2016-05-03T18:31:22Z zkat: warweasle: oh wow. 2016-05-03T18:31:24Z Bike: so defparameter and defvar and such work, eh 2016-05-03T18:31:30Z zkat: warweasle: I'm so sorry :P 2016-05-03T18:31:54Z drmeister: This stuff has compiled hundreds of times. I've been making changes to use link time optimization to speed things up and that's low level stuff that could mess things up in subtle ways. I'm trying to get some clue as to what the problem is. 2016-05-03T18:32:04Z warweasle: zkat: It's cool. Here is a video of it, if you like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY7QKDxkmRQ 2016-05-03T18:32:52Z drmeister: jasom: Non-local exits are done with C++ exception handling - more specifically - the Itanium no-cost exception handling mechanism. 2016-05-03T18:32:59Z Bike: the lambda definition is right after a non-toplevel defmacro, maybe something goes wrong there 2016-05-03T18:33:17Z drmeister: GC roots are defined in tables that are built using a static analyzer that I wrote that analyzes Clasp's C++ code. 2016-05-03T18:34:48Z drmeister: Bike: I'll take a look at that - maybe I can move the (defmacro lambda ...) and (defmacro PSETQ ...) around and that might illuminate something. 2016-05-03T18:35:57Z Bike: that psetq definition is so ugly, what the heck 2016-05-03T18:36:41Z drmeister: jasom: There's issues with using emscripten with clasp. It's 32 bit - right? 2016-05-03T18:37:43Z Bike: oh, i guess it's probably a pasted macroexpansion, huh 2016-05-03T18:38:14Z drmeister: The first pass compilation (minimal common lisp) works fine: 2016-05-03T18:38:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/IH28VcNl/ 2016-05-03T18:39:09Z drmeister: The lambda-list for the (macro-function 'lambda) takes a healthy two arguments. 2016-05-03T18:39:21Z phoe_krk: drmeister: yay! 2016-05-03T18:39:33Z Bike: i don't think that means it doesn't crash later, phoe 2016-05-03T18:39:53Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:40:17Z phoe_krk: Bike: that's one step further though. 2016-05-03T18:40:26Z phoe_krk: Also, I giggled at TRULY-THE. 2016-05-03T18:40:42Z Bike: sbcl has that too 2016-05-03T18:41:13Z phoe_krk: Yes, I googled it up. 2016-05-03T18:41:13Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:42:11Z phoe_krk: I have a long string delimited with spaces, basically English text. Can FORMAT print it for me without slicing words in half when given a maximum width? 2016-05-03T18:42:39Z phoe_krk: Basically - word wrapping. 2016-05-03T18:43:10Z Bike: word wrap is hard, i believe 2016-05-03T18:43:14Z Bike: i don't think format can do it anyway 2016-05-03T18:43:32Z phoe_krk: http://cybertiggyr.com/fmt/fmt.pdf Google tells me of a way. 2016-05-03T18:43:33Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T18:43:35Z dlowe: I've done some word wrapping 2016-05-03T18:43:44Z phoe_krk: That is one *scary* way. 2016-05-03T18:44:11Z phoe_krk: "~{~<~%~1,40:;~A~> ~}" - wtf, FORMAT. 2016-05-03T18:44:31Z Petit_Dejeuner wonders what Google even uses Common Lisp for. 2016-05-03T18:44:32Z dlowe: phoe_krk: https://github.com/dlowe-net/orcabot/blob/master/src/utils.lisp 2016-05-03T18:44:48Z dlowe: Petit_Dejeuner: airline fare search 2016-05-03T18:44:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: D-Do they do that now? 2016-05-03T18:44:58Z dlowe: phoe_krk: it's in wrap-string 2016-05-03T18:45:06Z dlowe: https://flights.google.com/ 2016-05-03T18:45:12Z dlowe: for like four years 2016-05-03T18:45:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: I wonder if they give bad info to people with @hotmail accounts. 2016-05-03T18:45:50Z phoe_krk: ...where should I book a flight to, dlowe? 2016-05-03T18:46:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: European Lisp Symposium 2016-05-03T18:46:08Z Bike: iqaluit 2016-05-03T18:46:12Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:46:15Z dlowe: phoe_krk: I like to do price-based travel 2016-05-03T18:46:17Z Petit_Dejeuner: iqaluit? 2016-05-03T18:46:22Z phoe_krk: Petit_Dejeuner: I don't need to, I'm in Cracow. 2016-05-03T18:46:23Z dlowe: you can put in an amount and see where it will get you 2016-05-03T18:46:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Ah neat, I need to visit poland. 2016-05-03T18:47:25Z dlowe: I had a truly insane word wrapper somewhere that attempted to produce neat edges on the right side. 2016-05-03T18:47:28Z prxq: dlowe: is that not ITA? 2016-05-03T18:47:42Z dlowe: prxq: it's ITA's engine on the backend 2016-05-03T18:47:47Z prxq: ok 2016-05-03T18:47:55Z dlowe: prxq: read more scrollback :p 2016-05-03T18:48:17Z dlowe: now I can't find that word wrapper 2016-05-03T18:48:18Z dlowe: oh, well. 2016-05-03T18:48:44Z prxq: why is word wrapping so hard? I remember doing that but I don't remember it being hard. 2016-05-03T18:48:56Z prxq: dlowe: I wans't in the chan, it seems 2016-05-03T18:49:01Z dlowe: prxq: ah, okay 2016-05-03T18:49:29Z dlowe: prxq: It can be simple or hard depending on how nice you want the output to be. 2016-05-03T18:50:38Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:52:11Z prxq: dlowe: with non-fixed-width I can see why it could be hard, but for fixed width? can you give an example? 2016-05-03T18:52:45Z dlowe: You can use the same algorithm for fixed with, where (= (width str) (length str)) 2016-05-03T18:52:51Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:53:16Z dlowe: You can also attempt to fix all the spacing and indentation of a given string. 2016-05-03T18:53:47Z dlowe: Two spaces after a period, except before a quotation mark, except at the end of a line, etc. 2016-05-03T18:54:14Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T18:55:25Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T18:55:31Z prxq: Ok, that kind of thing. 2016-05-03T18:57:39Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_afk 2016-05-03T19:00:18Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T19:04:23Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:05:28Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T19:12:48Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T19:13:18Z reb: jasom: Point taken ... but the amount of markup is quite minimal. 2016-05-03T19:13:33Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T19:13:39Z jasom: drmeister: oh is clasp 64-bit only? 2016-05-03T19:16:11Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:16:25Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:19:15Z drmeister: jasom: I haven't worried about 32bit but I suppose it could be made 32bit if you don't mind a 8-byte alignment. 2016-05-03T19:19:44Z jasom: most C implementations are 8-byte aligned for malloc anyway because of double-precision floats 2016-05-03T19:20:04Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:24:46Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-03T19:24:53Z shlomo quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-03T19:24:55Z simka joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:25:22Z schaueho joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:25:40Z simka: join /emacs 2016-05-03T19:25:42Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:25:57Z random-nick: simka: wrong place for / 2016-05-03T19:26:25Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:28:28Z drmeister: Hmm, is this wrong? The second time (defmacro LAMBDA ...) was compiled it generated this macro-function. 2016-05-03T19:28:30Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/46tY2Zhc/ 2016-05-03T19:28:40Z drmeister: The macro-function for lambda is: # 2016-05-03T19:28:42Z drmeister: Thinking... 2016-05-03T19:29:10Z drmeister: The macro function should take two arguments - not (&rest body) 2016-05-03T19:29:31Z drmeister: These are hard to think about. 2016-05-03T19:30:26Z pjb: the arguments to the macro function are the whole form and the environment. 2016-05-03T19:30:44Z pjb: like macroexpand. 2016-05-03T19:31:04Z schaueho quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T19:33:17Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T19:34:53Z phoe_krk: Oh! 2016-05-03T19:34:58Z phoe_krk: #lisp topic needs to be updated. 2016-05-03T19:35:01Z phoe_krk: We have SBCL 1.3.5 now. 2016-05-03T19:38:23Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:40:18Z copec_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T19:42:17Z heurist` joined #lisp 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2016-05-03T20:00:56Z funnel joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:01:19Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:03:04Z sepi: What's wrong with my defystem form that I get "error: Component "alexandria" not found, required by #" when trying to load-op it? http://paste.lisp.org/display/315272 2016-05-03T20:04:24Z sepi: Just normally loading alexandria works off course 2016-05-03T20:05:46Z phoe_krk: Looks like ASDF doesn't know where to find Alexandria. 2016-05-03T20:05:54Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:06:33Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:06:46Z sepi: phoe_krk: (asdf:load-system :alexandria) 2016-05-03T20:06:49Z sepi: T 2016-05-03T20:08:43Z phoe_krk: sepi: Now that's puzzling. 2016-05-03T20:08:43Z jasom: sepi: you have the depends-on in the wrong place 2016-05-03T20:09:01Z jasom: a module can depend only on other modules, not other systems 2016-05-03T20:09:50Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T20:09:57Z yrk quit (Quit: ERC (IRC 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Thanks for your help! 2016-05-03T20:14:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:16:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:17:07Z sjl: vydd: okay well, I can reliably reproduce the problem now. I still have not even the faintest clue what's going on 2016-05-03T20:17:32Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:17:52Z sjl: let me triple check that I've figured this out 2016-05-03T20:17:55Z vydd: sjl: what are the steps for reproducing it? 2016-05-03T20:20:14Z sjl: one sec 2016-05-03T20:20:23Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T20:21:11Z shikhin is now known as butthenthisreall 2016-05-03T20:21:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:21:25Z butthenthisreall is now known as shikhin 2016-05-03T20:21:30Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T20:21:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:21:56Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:22:07Z sjl: okay so, let me send you a quote from my personal quotes.txt file to get you in the mood for this bug description 2016-05-03T20:22:23Z naterubin left #lisp 2016-05-03T20:22:29Z vydd: sjl: sure :D 2016-05-03T20:22:38Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:22:59Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T20:23:18Z pjb: Zippy says: I have seen these EGG EXTENDERS in my Supermarket.. I have the power to HALT PRODUCTION on all TEENAGE SEX COMEDIES!! 2016-05-03T20:23:18Z pjb: 2016-05-03T20:23:55Z sjl: vydd: http://paste.stevelosh.com/572908c6f6b6d30007465a54 2016-05-03T20:24:13Z sjl: okay so, to reproduce this bug 2016-05-03T20:24:18Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:24:43Z sjl: 1. update my quicklisp dist with (ql-dist:install-dist) 2016-05-03T20:25:03Z sjl: 2. (quickload 'my-thing), it builds all the deps and runs nice and fast 2016-05-03T20:25:10Z |2701_ is now known as |2701 2016-05-03T20:25:20Z sjl: 2.1 continue to stop ccl and start it again and run my thing, it continues to be fast 2016-05-03T20:25:31Z sjl: 3. rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp 2016-05-03T20:25:41Z warweasle_afk is now known as warweasle 2016-05-03T20:25:51Z sjl: 4. (ql:quickload 'mything), it will rebuild all the deps, but now my thing runs SLOW 2016-05-03T20:26:00Z sjl: 5. rm -rf ~/.cache/common-lisp 2016-05-03T20:26:15Z sjl: 6. it continues to run slow no matter what, UNTIL I update the dist again 2016-05-03T20:26:26Z sjl: then it redownloads things and rebuilds, and is fast again 2016-05-03T20:26:28Z sjl: until I rm the cache 2016-05-03T20:26:34Z sjl: and then it's permanently slow 2016-05-03T20:26:59Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:26:59Z vydd: wait. even if you install-dist again? 2016-05-03T20:27:10Z sjl: no, install-dist always makes it fast again 2016-05-03T20:27:14Z sjl: until the next time I kill the cache 2016-05-03T20:27:19Z vydd: ah. ok. that's...."better". 2016-05-03T20:27:28Z sjl: so blowing away the cache triggers the issue, and it persists until I install-dist again 2016-05-03T20:27:47Z sjl: this happens both on homebrew ccl and roswell ccl, with one small difference: 2016-05-03T20:28:08Z sjl: the roswell version of ccl isn't fixed by install-dist alone -- I have to first blow away the cache, THEN install dist 2016-05-03T20:29:34Z sjl: I believe the homebrew/roswell things aren't actually affecting each other, but my brain is a bit fried trying to keep all of this straight so don't quote me on that 2016-05-03T20:29:45Z oskarth joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:30:08Z vydd: I'm looking at install-dist now...never used it myself, actually :| 2016-05-03T20:31:07Z sjl: so my main question is: why does rm'ing the quicklisp cache cause sketch to be slow 2016-05-03T20:33:31Z pjb: Because now it mustbe recompiled from sources. 2016-05-03T20:34:16Z prxq: lool 2016-05-03T20:35:04Z prxq: bug: when i delete the .fasl files, it recompiles again and it takes ages! 2016-05-03T20:35:04Z sjl: pjb: no, if I rm the cache, then install-dist (which only downloads the ql dist and copies it into place), then run sketch, it's fast 2016-05-03T20:35:20Z sjl: it's not the building that's slow 2016-05-03T20:35:27Z sjl: the program actually RUNS slower 2016-05-03T20:35:29Z prxq: sorry, cheap shot :-) 2016-05-03T20:35:59Z pjb: perhaps it didn't compile right? 2016-05-03T20:36:22Z sjl: yes, that's what I'm trying to puzzle out 2016-05-03T20:36:39Z sjl: it still RUNs, just at 18+ ms per frame instead of 2 ms per frame 2016-05-03T20:36:52Z sjl: for a trivial demo 2016-05-03T20:37:26Z sjl: so, what is different about "rm cache, rebuild everything" and "rm cache, install-dist, rebuild everything" that results in the slowdown 2016-05-03T20:37:52Z tking0036 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:37:54Z tking0036 left #lisp 2016-05-03T20:37:55Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:38:05Z pjb: I don't know. 2016-05-03T20:39:58Z sjl: I have a susipicion... 2016-05-03T20:43:13Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:43:32Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:43:32Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T20:44:09Z Jonsky quit (Quit: Go to Mars to grow potatoes) 2016-05-03T20:46:23Z simka quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-03T20:48:13Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T20:51:10Z sjl: vydd: okay well it's working now, for the most part, so I'm just gonna move on with life for the moment. if I figure out anything else I'll let you know. 2016-05-03T20:52:05Z vydd: sjl: maybe you could try doing the same thing, but with running something like "find ~/ -mmin -1" between each step too see which files are being changed or created... 2016-05-03T20:52:12Z vydd: ah, ok 2016-05-03T20:56:26Z sjl: vydd: I have one more theory I will give you before moving on 2016-05-03T20:56:28Z sjl: lol 2016-05-03T20:56:28Z vydd: sjl: btw, I'm reading that quote for the third time, still laughing. if the rest of your quotes.txt is of the same quality, you should turn it into a book :) 2016-05-03T20:56:34Z vydd: sure 2016-05-03T20:57:15Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T20:57:20Z sjl: vydd: funny story, I helped write the quotes server at my last company, and when I quit the job to go back to school they made me a printed copy of the quote db as a parting gift 2016-05-03T20:57:33Z sjl: so I literally have a paper book of my quotes file, lol 2016-05-03T20:57:41Z vydd: ha, that's great! 2016-05-03T20:57:41Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-03T20:59:46Z sjl: ok so, the log of the first build after I install-dist is this: http://paste.stevelosh.com/57290d47f6b6d30007465a56 2016-05-03T21:00:01Z sjl: after blowing away the cache, the next build is http://paste.stevelosh.com/57290ccdf6b6d30007465a55 2016-05-03T21:00:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: Helping 80 year olds pick out smartphones...) 2016-05-03T21:00:44Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:00:50Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:00:57Z sjl: specifically note the error related to sdl2-ttf in the first paste, and its absence in the second paste 2016-05-03T21:01:39Z sjl: actually this might just be weird output interleaving 2016-05-03T21:01:53Z mood: Yeah, the error is actually there, just in a slightly different place 2016-05-03T21:02:05Z vydd: yeah 2016-05-03T21:02:09Z mood: sjl: is this with :verbose t? 2016-05-03T21:02:22Z sjl: mood: no, I can rerun with it though 2016-05-03T21:02:23Z mood: Or, well, I know it's not 2016-05-03T21:02:34Z jaerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:03:01Z mood: There don't appear to be any significant differences there, except QL downloading some stuff 2016-05-03T21:03:27Z sjl: yeah 2016-05-03T21:03:34Z sjl: I'm rerunning it with verbose, one sec 2016-05-03T21:04:13Z vydd: hm. sjl: https://gist.github.com/vydd/f052ae521cd17ecf429eafee155023a6 mine is also including from /opt/local/lib/libffi 2016-05-03T21:04:49Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:05:50Z sjl: okay, here's the verbose quickload output of the initial load after install-dist, the one that results in a FAST sketch: http://paste.stevelosh.com/57291243f6b6d30007465a57 2016-05-03T21:06:09Z sjl: and here's the verbose quickload that results in a SLOW sketch: http://paste.stevelosh.com/5729128bf6b6d30007465a58 2016-05-03T21:07:36Z drmeister: I think I found the problem. 2016-05-03T21:08:16Z drmeister: I complicated sequence of events during bootstrapping and low level function calls that weren't passing the correct number of arguments. 2016-05-03T21:09:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:10:04Z rme: sjl: This is a long shot, but you could try putting (setq *load-preserves-optimization-settings* t) into your init file (~/ccl-init.lisp). 2016-05-03T21:10:27Z sjl: rme: hm, I will try it 2016-05-03T21:10:58Z mood: The varying output order makes diffs very hard to parse 2016-05-03T21:11:03Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T21:11:14Z sjl: mood: yeah, I'm trying to cross reference them now 2016-05-03T21:11:21Z sjl: to find an error in the slow one that's not in the fast one 2016-05-03T21:11:30Z sjl: rme: what the fuck 2016-05-03T21:11:31Z sjl: it worked 2016-05-03T21:11:54Z jasom: sjl: one of the systems you are loading is setting optimization parameters 2016-05-03T21:12:22Z sjl: jasom: and this doesn't happen when I blow away the cache and quickload again? 2016-05-03T21:12:32Z badkins quit 2016-05-03T21:13:21Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T21:13:23Z jasom: sjl: remember there is separate compile and load times; *if* you load file X before compiling file Y, where X is the file that changes the settings, then Y will inherit X's settings; if you compile Y before X is loaded, then Y will not 2016-05-03T21:13:34Z Guthur joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:13:34Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:15:19Z mood: A system is probably turning speed optimizations way down in some file. 2016-05-03T21:15:31Z sjl: jasom: hm. so the install-dist is somehow either: changing the order of things getting quickloaded, or quickloading something extra that sets optimization settings, before the other stuff gets loaded 2016-05-03T21:15:32Z jasom: sjl: and note that the compile/load orders are very different depending on whether or not quicklisp needs to download systems 2016-05-03T21:16:11Z lerax is now known as lerax_busy 2016-05-03T21:16:18Z Baggers: sjl: are you using sly? 2016-05-03T21:16:20Z jasom: one example; madeira port is loaded first if you haven't just done an install dist, but 12th otherwise 2016-05-03T21:16:26Z sjl: Baggers: no 2016-05-03T21:16:39Z sjl: yeah, it does seem to change the order 2016-05-03T21:16:48Z Baggers: nmind then :) it seemed to have a good few declaim optimzes around the code 2016-05-03T21:16:58Z jasom: Fare isn't here to rant about the difficulty of reproducable builds on common lisp sadly 2016-05-03T21:17:04Z vydd: woah. progress. 2016-05-03T21:17:34Z mood: SBCL always works like CCL does with *load-preserves-optimization-settings* set to T, so an issue like this wouldn't appear there, but that behaviour is not ANSI compliant 2016-05-03T21:18:40Z sjl: mood: yeah I haven't tried this with sbcl because sketch and SBCL don't play well together on OS X 2016-05-03T21:19:26Z sjl: I did have one declaim in my own code, but just double-checked by removing it and that wasn't the issue 2016-05-03T21:19:52Z vydd: interestingly, I've been using the same configuration (same version of ccl on osx), and I never ran into that same problem 2016-05-03T21:20:56Z sjl: vydd: can you try rm'ing your cache and then re-quickloading (without that preservation setting) and see if I can break your machine too? lol 2016-05-03T21:21:07Z vydd: sjl: tried that already 2016-05-03T21:21:09Z varjagg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:21:09Z sjl: ah 2016-05-03T21:21:20Z jasom: sjl: you could find where asdf does the load and print the optimization settings after each load; that would likely catch the offending system 2016-05-03T21:22:12Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T21:22:30Z sjl: jasom: hm, asdf.lisp 11k lines 2016-05-03T21:23:21Z jasom: sjl: look at the source; asdf.lisp is the build artifact of asdf 2016-05-03T21:23:26Z rpg: Is sly a happening thing these days? 2016-05-03T21:23:34Z sjl: yeah I'm digging through it now 2016-05-03T21:24:39Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:24:46Z mood: rpg: I'm using it, it's pretty good (of course, so is SLIME) 2016-05-03T21:24:48Z rpg: sjl: You could try grepping the sources of your quicklisp cache searching for DECLAIM and PROCLAIM -- might be faster.... 2016-05-03T21:25:08Z sjl: I think I found the load-system function, lemme just shove a print in here 2016-05-03T21:25:48Z rpg: there were some things about sly that seemed appealing, but I wasn't sure it would stand the test of time.... 2016-05-03T21:26:04Z rpg: tough for the community to maintain two emacs lisp interfaces 2016-05-03T21:26:53Z rpg: sjl: the LOAD-SYSTEM function is a convenience for outsiders -- I don't think you can count on it always being called 2016-05-03T21:27:13Z rpg: I think some systems might be loaded w/o that function being called. 2016-05-03T21:27:16Z briantrice_ joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:27:25Z briantrice quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-03T21:27:27Z briantrice_ is now known as briantrice 2016-05-03T21:27:42Z rpg: An after method on PERFORM LOAD-OP SYSTEM might work better to find which system changed your settings 2016-05-03T21:28:35Z mood: It might just be fare-quasiquote. It declaims optimize (speed 1) (safety 3) (debug 3) 2016-05-03T21:28:52Z mood: Or wait, no 2016-05-03T21:29:15Z mood: It loads after sketch in the slow one, before sketch in the fast one 2016-05-03T21:31:04Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:31:34Z sjl: yeah load-system is being called for some of them but not others 2016-05-03T21:32:11Z vydd: sjl: maybe try loading a sketch example instead of your code, that should give you less dependencies to look at 2016-05-03T21:32:21Z rpg: sjl: I think you will not see calls to LOAD-SYSTEM for systems that are just loaded to satisfy dependencies of top level systems 2016-05-03T21:32:21Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-03T21:32:34Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:32:34Z rpg is now known as rpg[Away] 2016-05-03T21:33:47Z rlatimore quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-03T21:35:52Z sjl: yeah this looks more promising (the :after method) -- it's showing me every file 2016-05-03T21:35:59Z sjl: let me comb through this 2016-05-03T21:36:59Z sjl hopes his scrollback buffer is large enough in tmux 2016-05-03T21:37:03Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:37:56Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:38:23Z rpg[Away] quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:38:32Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:39:51Z sjl: http://paste.stevelosh.com/57291a99f6b6d30007465a59 2016-05-03T21:40:04Z sjl: this is the fast result 2016-05-03T21:40:17Z sjl: so defstart turns the speed DOWN 2016-05-03T21:40:19Z sjl: really early 2016-05-03T21:40:32Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:40:42Z sjl: fare-quasiquote turns it back up 2016-05-03T21:42:32Z mood: So if the slowness is in sketch itself, that might very well be it. fare-quasiquote turns it back up before loading sketch in the fast one, but in the slow one speed will still be 0 when loading sketch 2016-05-03T21:43:15Z sjl: the slow one: http://paste.stevelosh.com/57291b49f6b6d30007465a5a 2016-05-03T21:43:34Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-03T21:43:43Z sjl: yeah sketch itself gets compiled with speed 1 versus speed 0 2016-05-03T21:43:48Z vydd: mood: I'm not setting any optimization parameters, except for src/utils.lisp:92: (declare (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0))) 2016-05-03T21:44:01Z Cxcf: this may be a silly question, but is (setq counter (+ counter 4)) a good way to update a counter? 2016-05-03T21:44:20Z Bike: you can just do (incf counter 4) 2016-05-03T21:44:48Z sjl: vydd: you're not, but the load order here is effectively giving you speed 1 or 0 for everything, depending on what order the other libs get loaded on my machine, hah 2016-05-03T21:45:03Z phadthai quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T21:45:30Z mood: Quite a speed difference, for just a 0 vs a 1 2016-05-03T21:46:22Z Bike: if you're worried about sbcl you can use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy to neuter those declaims without changing any sources 2016-05-03T21:46:33Z Bike: i dunno about other implementations (other than ccl, that's kinda neat) 2016-05-03T21:47:36Z mood: Bike: The same problem doesn't exist on SBCL, because optimization settings from one system don't affect others (though restrict-compiler-policy is very useful) 2016-05-03T21:47:58Z Cxcf: Bike: thanks:) what's incf stand for? it doesn't say in the hyperspec 2016-05-03T21:48:00Z Bike: ...uh, they don't? why not? 2016-05-03T21:48:13Z Bike: Cxcf: increment field (or whatever the f in setf is) 2016-05-03T21:48:27Z Cxcf: Bike: aaah, field. Thanks:) 2016-05-03T21:48:30Z Cxcf: just curious 2016-05-03T21:49:39Z sjl: there are other things that get compiled with speed 0 the second time around though, so I'm not 100% sure sketch is the one that's actually getting slower 2016-05-03T21:49:57Z mood: Bike: SBCL re-binds optimization settings in LOAD, so they don't persist afterwards 2016-05-03T21:50:22Z Bike: huh. i didn't think that was legal. 2016-05-03T21:50:27Z mood: It isn't 2016-05-03T21:50:30Z rme: sjl: https://lists.clozure.com/pipermail/openmcl-devel/2009-August/005925.html tries to explain what the deal is with declaim and load-time effects. 2016-05-03T21:50:32Z Bike: sweet 2016-05-03T21:51:16Z sepi: What's a good way to get the absolute path to a data file located a subdir of in the project directory ? 2016-05-03T21:51:20Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T21:52:05Z mood: Bike: Also see https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/blob/master/src/code/target-load.lisp#L141 2016-05-03T21:52:14Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T21:52:15Z Bike: yeah, i found it as soon as you said that 2016-05-03T21:52:18Z mood: (hrm, the sbcl github mirror doesn't update anymore?) 2016-05-03T21:52:31Z Bike: i assumed sjl was having problems in sbcl, didn't read enough of the conversation 2016-05-03T21:52:55Z mood: ah 2016-05-03T21:53:01Z Bike: github master is two days old, so i think it's fine 2016-05-03T21:53:18Z sjl: yeah, I understand the problem now 2016-05-03T21:53:38Z mood: Ah, just some weird commit dates. "commited on Jan 9" threw me off 2016-05-03T21:54:05Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:01:03Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:02:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-03T22:02:45Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:03:53Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:04:34Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:04:51Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:06:21Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:08:44Z Guest749` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:08:45Z Guest74977 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:08:52Z abbe quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:09:50Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-03T22:10:04Z ircbrowse quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:10:26Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:10:40Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:10:42Z vert2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:11:02Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:11:12Z vert2 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:11:21Z Tordek joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:11:54Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:12:14Z abbe joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:14:00Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:15:49Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:16:41Z Cxcf: I'm struggling with an unexpected number of arguments but I can't exactly locate it. Any tips? 2016-05-03T22:16:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:16:43Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-03T22:16:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:18:36Z Cxcf: and in the debugger it has ((setf at the beginning, but I don't have that anywhere in my code:/ 2016-05-03T22:18:53Z Bike: when you use setf, sometimes setf functions are involved 2016-05-03T22:19:10Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:19:21Z Bike: like, (setf (aref foo 3 4) 5) might macroexpand to (funcall #'(setf aref) 5 foo 3 4) 2016-05-03T22:19:34Z Bike: which the debugger could display as ((setf aref) 5 foo 3 4) 2016-05-03T22:23:21Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:25:39Z Cxcf: I have a couple of setf's with a second argument of aref, but it doesn't look like any of the paren's are off 2016-05-03T22:26:07Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:26:59Z Bike: that's what i said. a normal (setf ...) form could be in the debugger as ((setf ...) ...). 2016-05-03T22:29:08Z sjl: Cxcf: which implementation are you using? the debugger might let you ask it for the actual form that's failing 2016-05-03T22:29:30Z sjl: which can sometimes be helpful 2016-05-03T22:30:33Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:30:47Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:36:11Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-03T22:47:08Z oskarth quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-03T22:49:05Z drmeister: Phew - the MPS version of clasp is building again. 2016-05-03T22:50:13Z drmeister: When people define function types - does that include &rest and &key arguments? 2016-05-03T22:50:58Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T22:51:05Z drmeister: They are such slow features that it seems antithetical to the idea of defining function types to improve performance. 2016-05-03T22:51:41Z Bike: well, the way function types work is a bit unintuitive. 2016-05-03T22:51:47Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:52:14Z Bike: when you declare an ftype, you're not actually declaring the type of the function per se (it is, after all, a CL:FUNCTION and probably nothing more specific), you're declaring types in calls to it. 2016-05-03T22:53:35Z Bike: like, if foo has an ftype of (function (&key (:bar integer))), and some code has (foo :bar baz) in it, you can infer that baz is an integer. 2016-05-03T22:53:43Z Bike: er, that ftype except not broken 2016-05-03T22:58:12Z Cxcf` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T22:59:04Z Bike: plus, hey, maybe you have a super long function with a lot of arithmetic, and having unboxed floats helps even in the face of &key parsing. 2016-05-03T23:00:06Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-03T23:01:03Z Guest38804 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-03T23:03:50Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-03T23:04:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-03T23:04:41Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-03T23:10:12Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-04T03:30:55Z jokleinn quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5-rc1) 2016-05-04T03:35:45Z H4ns: akkad: no 2016-05-04T03:35:45Z akkad: thanks. will just rebuild with higher default.s 2016-05-04T03:57:14Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T03:58:51Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T03:59:16Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-04T03:59:44Z loke: akkad: You can set it on the commandline though. 2016-05-04T04:03:51Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T04:04:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T04:07:19Z circ-user-eL77P joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:07:23Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T04:07:26Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T04:10:24Z akkad: loke yeah, just always forget to do so. :P 2016-05-04T04:11:45Z loke: akkad: Start sbcl through a wrapper script? 2016-05-04T04:12:18Z akkad: (require :sb-sprof)(sb-sprof:with-profiling (:report :flat) (format t "hi")) ;; works fine in repl, but on (load) of a file it errors with Package SB-SPROF does not exist. 2016-05-04T04:13:35Z Bike: did you compile the file before loading it? 2016-05-04T04:14:12Z akkad: yeah. 2016-05-04T04:14:18Z akkad: it get stripped out? 2016-05-04T04:14:33Z akkad: typical (load (compile-file "load.lisp")) 2016-05-04T04:15:03Z Bike: it's a compile error. since the compiler doesn't evaluate forms as it compiles them, it doesn't REQUIRE sb-sprof, so the reader fails on the second form. 2016-05-04T04:15:05Z akkad: actually no. on that 2016-05-04T04:15:20Z akkad: I had removed compile-file hoping to cure it 2016-05-04T04:15:34Z Bike: well, it might still be trying to load the fasl. 2016-05-04T04:15:46Z Bike: anyway, try (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (require :sb-sprof)) 2016-05-04T04:15:55Z akkad: right. so I included it in my package. 2016-05-04T04:16:09Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:19:57Z akkad: Bike any pointers to docs? 2016-05-04T04:20:02Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:20:05Z gabriel_laddel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T04:20:21Z Bike: yeah, eval-when links the thing... 2016-05-04T04:20:23Z Bike: clhs eval-when 2016-05-04T04:20:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 2016-05-04T04:20:29Z akkad: thanks 2016-05-04T04:20:34Z Bike: 3.2.3 i think 2016-05-04T04:21:55Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T04:22:04Z akkad: perfect thanks. good to see LW is the way to go over sbcl 2016-05-04T04:22:20Z Bike: what's that got to do with it? 2016-05-04T04:22:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:24:19Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/c43ad687c56ef171d3386df7d5af649e like that. 2016-05-04T04:24:30Z akkad: oh thought you were upselling me on LW with the url 2016-05-04T04:24:37Z Bike: haha, no, it's just the standard 2016-05-04T04:24:42Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:24:57Z akkad: "see my answer at myproduct.com" 2016-05-04T04:25:10Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-04T04:25:35Z akkad: PCL has a good read on this. will read it. 2016-05-04T04:25:37Z Bike: you might not want to leave it as :compile-toplevel, that'll make it not work if you load without compiling, or compile, restart your image, and then load 2016-05-04T04:26:27Z akkad: k 2016-05-04T04:26:30Z Bike: well, what you really want to do is specify the dependencies in asdf or summat, if this is anything nontrivial 2016-05-04T04:26:39Z asc232 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T04:29:27Z oleo_ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-04T04:30:41Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T04:31:04Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:31:04Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:40:24Z Guest57703 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T04:41:00Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T04:48:54Z dto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T05:02:01Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:02:11Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-04T05:03:31Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:06:20Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:09:52Z loke: Hello beach! 2016-05-04T05:09:55Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:10:08Z lerax_busy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T05:10:40Z beach: loke: Are you going to be at ELS? 2016-05-04T05:10:51Z loke: beach: No. Unfortunately not. 2016-05-04T05:11:01Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:11:03Z beach: Too bad. 2016-05-04T05:11:12Z drmeister: Hi beach 2016-05-04T05:11:22Z loke: Indeed. 2016-05-04T05:16:46Z modula joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:17:15Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T05:17:15Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2016-05-04T05:17:42Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:17:57Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T05:21:34Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:38:09Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T05:44:53Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-04T05:47:05Z Xal quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-04T05:49:32Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T05:54:58Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T05:55:24Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T05:56:38Z pillton: G'day beach. 2016-05-04T05:57:54Z vlatkoB quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-04T05:58:02Z beach: pillton: I take it you are not going to ELS either, right? 2016-05-04T05:59:39Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:00:23Z vlion joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:01:07Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:02:44Z pillton: No. I wish. I've got two ideas on the go at the moment which I'd like to submit. I hope to go one year. 2016-05-04T06:03:37Z beach: If you write those ideas down, I'll be happy to have a look and let you know whether I think they would be appropriate for articles. 2016-05-04T06:04:50Z pillton: beach: Great. One is here: http://markcox80.github.io/chains/ 2016-05-04T06:05:12Z _0xd3_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:06:16Z Bike: hm, if i'm reading that correctly maybe i could use it 2016-05-04T06:06:27Z pillton: beach: I'm currently writing the documentation for the other one. https://github.com/markcox80/specialization-store 2016-05-04T06:07:15Z Bike: except without any validation. i guess i could add in like thirty more steps 2016-05-04T06:07:29Z beach: pillton: Chains looks like an interesting project. 2016-05-04T06:07:29Z pillton: ? 2016-05-04T06:08:38Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:09:10Z beach: pillton: For the specialization store, I would need a comparison with other existing dispatch systems based on types in order to determine whether it would be a good article. 2016-05-04T06:09:26Z pillton: Yeah. I know. 2016-05-04T06:09:50Z beach: But let's do all that after I get back from ELS. Now I have to create my slides, pack, check in, etc, etc. 2016-05-04T06:10:02Z pillton: It is one tab in the documentation. It is currently blank. :) 2016-05-04T06:10:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T06:10:23Z beach: Yeah, I think we have discussed this stuff in the past. 2016-05-04T06:10:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:10:35Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:11:39Z pillton: I have implemented a greedy decision tree to optimize the dispatch process. 2016-05-04T06:12:23Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-04T06:13:54Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:16:45Z beach: And do you compute the dispatch at compile time? I seem to remember something like that. 2016-05-04T06:18:29Z pillton: Yes. 2016-05-04T06:18:30Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:20:15Z salva0 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:20:59Z beach: Time to get to work! 2016-05-04T06:21:02Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-04T06:21:27Z pillton: Have fun. 2016-05-04T06:24:37Z salva joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:27:49Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:29:27Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:29:45Z rumbler31 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T06:33:03Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:38:38Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:38:46Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:39:40Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:41:40Z dto joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:41:50Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:42:14Z dto: in case anyone wants to see a highly facetious usage of common lisp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFp0aF6AsOo 2016-05-04T06:42:59Z circ-user-eL77P quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T06:45:02Z theos: games and all 2016-05-04T06:45:18Z vlion: dto: very oldskool design there 2016-05-04T06:47:09Z dto: :) 2016-05-04T06:47:19Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-04T06:48:27Z drmeister: This macro shouldn't have any compile time effects should it? 2016-05-04T06:48:27Z zRecursive: @wn endofunctor 2016-05-04T06:48:45Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/NnbUDYut/ 2016-05-04T06:49:47Z drmeister: It's being used like this: 2016-05-04T06:49:48Z drmeister: (generate-direct-call-defun (core:magic-intern "ast_tooling__parse_dynamic_matcher") (matcher) "wrapped_ast_tooling__parse_dynamic_matcher" ) 2016-05-04T06:50:31Z drmeister: Hmm, the (apply 'core:magic-intern (cdr raw-lisp-name)) will intern a bunch of symbols at compile time 2016-05-04T06:50:37Z Bike: intern sounds side effectful, yeah 2016-05-04T06:50:42Z Bike: and defun can be of course 2016-05-04T06:51:18Z drmeister: I nerfed this macro - so that it doesn't do anything at compile time and those defmacro problems I was talking about before all went away. 2016-05-04T06:51:19Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-04T06:51:19Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-04T06:51:25Z drmeister: (I still haven't solved the problem) 2016-05-04T06:51:28Z drmeister: It's a toughy 2016-05-04T06:51:34Z Bike: worrying. 2016-05-04T06:52:17Z drmeister: With this everything compiles: 2016-05-04T06:52:19Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kGeh2V0Z/ 2016-05-04T06:53:07Z drmeister: This macro is supposed to generate a DEFUN that replaces builtin C++ function calls with faster, direct calls. It is used to replace about 1000 functions. 2016-05-04T06:53:30Z vlion: o.o 2016-05-04T06:53:49Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T06:53:53Z drmeister: It SHOULD be generating a DEFUN that is compiled with COMPILE-FILE. It SHOULDN'T do anything to the compile time environment other than intern symbols (which I thought was harmless). 2016-05-04T06:54:11Z drmeister: Especially because the symbols are already interned.. 2016-05-04T06:54:37Z Bike: if the symbols are already interned, try having it do find-symbol instead? 2016-05-04T06:54:53Z drmeister: Good point 2016-05-04T06:55:42Z drmeister: Ugh. Then I need to use eval 2016-05-04T06:56:06Z drmeister: I'll move the (apply ...) into an eval-when 2016-05-04T06:57:18Z drmeister: No, I can't do that. 2016-05-04T06:57:21Z drmeister: ERg 2016-05-04T06:58:26Z drmeister: I'll try again in the morning - it's too late to be messing with macros. 2016-05-04T06:58:57Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:00:33Z drmeister: Meh - I'll use eval and find-symbol 2016-05-04T07:01:08Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:01:48Z drmeister: No, I don't need eval - apply will work 2016-05-04T07:05:49Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:07:56Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:08:03Z schaueho joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:09:39Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:14:42Z logicmoo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T07:18:52Z drmeister: I changed the macro to this: 2016-05-04T07:18:55Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/hPIuFA1L/ 2016-05-04T07:21:30Z akkad: hmm want a (let-alist ALIST &rest BODY) clone. 2016-05-04T07:21:45Z emaczen` quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-04T07:22:38Z akkad: this looks real ugly. ideas on cleaner ways to do this? https://gist.github.com/d7fdb71e14359f98e2d4adc9eea1c3b6 2016-05-04T07:24:02Z vlion: akkad: what's your input data shape? 2016-05-04T07:24:56Z akkad: audit data. millions of records of ~10 fields. 2016-05-04T07:25:39Z vlion: I would suggest removing record-size, you're not using it, then breaking out your let* into two lets; one for accessing x, one for accessing user-identity 2016-05-04T07:25:55Z akkad: k 2016-05-04T07:27:06Z vlion: I would also suggest determining if you should be using a hash table or the alist for this data size 2016-05-04T07:27:06Z _0xd3_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T07:27:35Z vlion: For lots of audit records, you probably want to be able to test and retest many times, so efficiency begins to matter. :) 2016-05-04T07:28:01Z akkad: yeah I'm importing this from AWS cloudtrail. gzipped json files. 2016-05-04T07:28:05Z vlion: Also note that your top-level let* can be turned into a let as well with the removal of record-size. 2016-05-04T07:28:59Z vlion: also, get-internal-real-time might be surprisingly slow when run millions of times; consider not calling it? 2016-05-04T07:29:20Z akkad: yeah left over crap 2016-05-04T07:29:39Z vlion: then, finally, I'd probably have a producer-consumer thread with a queue and bounded buffering for the insertions. 2016-05-04T07:30:38Z akkad: :D the very path I've been investigating 2016-05-04T07:30:53Z akkad: vs 10 threads all reading gzipped data/parsing json, and submitting directly to postgres 2016-05-04T07:31:03Z vlion: It'd be significantly more complex to do that, but you'd be able to separate out concerns further apart: send a message from the parser to the inserter; the inserter can cope with any temporary failures 2016-05-04T07:31:37Z akkad: right. thanks 2016-05-04T07:31:39Z vlion: Ah, pg - note that another aspect is that postgres has bulk insert of CSV, so what you might _really_ want is dumping to a CSV file, the doing a postgres bulk insert 2016-05-04T07:32:01Z akkad: very good idea 2016-05-04T07:32:21Z vlion: http://pgloader.io/ 2016-05-04T07:32:47Z stepnem joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:32:49Z akkad: this is a ton of crap I need to rewrite 2016-05-04T07:33:07Z akkad: little bit at a time. thanks for the help 2016-05-04T07:33:16Z vlion: ha, no problem. 2016-05-04T07:33:49Z akkad: https://github.com/ober/cloudtrail2postgresql for the full horror show 2016-05-04T07:34:34Z _0xd3_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:35:24Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T07:35:52Z zRecursive: v 2016-05-04T07:36:17Z zRecursive left #lisp 2016-05-04T07:38:17Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:40:17Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:40:35Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:40:36Z igam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T07:40:39Z igam` joined #lisp 2016-05-04T07:48:43Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T07:49:45Z jasom 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2016-05-04T08:03:03Z loke: For all of it. 2016-05-04T08:03:17Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:03:31Z akkad: yeah I'm researching that as well. 2016-05-04T08:04:40Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T08:05:12Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:06:54Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T08:08:14Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T08:08:15Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:08:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:08:50Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:08:53Z zacharias quit (Changing host) 2016-05-04T08:08:53Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:14:06Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:15:32Z lerax joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:16:55Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:19:06Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:23:53Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-04T08:25:33Z vlion quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T08:28:24Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T08:28:41Z Harag joined #lisp 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2016-05-04T09:36:30Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T09:41:33Z guthur joined #lisp 2016-05-04T09:53:01Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T09:53:18Z ramus joined #lisp 2016-05-04T09:54:06Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:00:13Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:01:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:01:05Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-04T10:03:19Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T10:06:40Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:07:44Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:08:50Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:09:42Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:16:25Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:16:33Z logicmoo quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-04T10:17:21Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:18:15Z guthur: Is there any lib that would allow me to monitor file changes 2016-05-04T10:18:27Z guthur: something like last modified time 2016-05-04T10:20:02Z jdz: clhs file-write-date 2016-05-04T10:20:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_w.htm 2016-05-04T10:20:02Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T10:20:30Z mbuf_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:20:42Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:22:08Z guthur: lol 2016-05-04T10:22:23Z guthur: jdz: cheers, never thought of checking the spec 2016-05-04T10:24:04Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:24:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:26:54Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:28:17Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T10:28:31Z loke: There is an FS-WATCHER library in QL 2016-05-04T10:29:09Z mood: There are also multiple inotify bindings in QL 2016-05-04T10:29:11Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:29:14Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:29:38Z loke: Yes. three of them. Whick one to use? 2016-05-04T10:30:07Z mood: I have no idea 2016-05-04T10:30:11Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T10:30:29Z guthur: i might try to maintain some semblance of OS portability... 2016-05-04T10:30:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:31:24Z mood: Yes. Do note that fs-watcher constantly polls the file system 2016-05-04T10:32:02Z guthur: though it irks me a little that the fs-watcher author ignored the fact that they probably had a warning from using a function before it's definition 2016-05-04T10:32:13Z guthur: mood, they just had a look at the source 2016-05-04T10:33:42Z guthur: maybe a portable notification lib would be good 2016-05-04T10:33:51Z guthur: windows has FindFirstChangeNotification C API 2016-05-04T10:34:14Z loke: guthur: I doubt you'll find a QL library that wraps that 2016-05-04T10:34:52Z loke: I'd suggest you write one that uses cl-fsnotify or FindFirstblahblah if on Windows or Linux, and fall back to polling otherwise. 2016-05-04T10:35:03Z loke: There is something for OSX too. kevents? 2016-05-04T10:35:38Z guthur: yeah, I might hack that together at the weekend 2016-05-04T10:35:41Z loke: Hmm... cl-fsnotify seems to be built with such flexibility in mind. 2016-05-04T10:35:50Z loke: So really all you have to do is to add a provider for it. 2016-05-04T10:35:57Z guthur: oh, nice 2016-05-04T10:36:26Z loke: Yeah. cl-fsnotify has backends for BSD OSX and Linux. 2016-05-04T10:36:33Z loke: All you have to do is write one for winodws. 2016-05-04T10:39:47Z guthur: ok, cheers 2016-05-04T10:40:28Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:41:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T10:41:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:42:59Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-04T10:46:18Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-04T10:46:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:46:55Z mbuf_ is now known as mbuf 2016-05-04T10:47:01Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:49:12Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-04T10:52:25Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T10:54:08Z Xach: loke: i can roll up https://github.com/xach/zs3/issues/14 too! 2016-05-04T10:58:21Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T11:04:14Z Guest2209 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:05:11Z MetaHertz|atwork quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:08:21Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:08:48Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T11:12:02Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:14:48Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:19:04Z loke: Xach: :-) 2016-05-04T11:19:18Z Xach: i mean, as part of the other thing 2016-05-04T11:19:24Z loke: Yes, I know. 2016-05-04T11:20:01Z loke: I'll let you know after I checked with management. I'm not having too much hope to get it approved though :-( 2016-05-04T11:30:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:31:08Z algae quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-04T11:32:46Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:40:02Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:41:03Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:42:09Z nowhere_man quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:45:06Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:47:41Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:48:33Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T11:52:15Z TMM joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:58:27Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-04T11:58:30Z guthur: is there consistent way to get the app directory of a CL program 2016-05-04T11:58:47Z guthur: when i try to load a file it is looking in my home directory 2016-05-04T12:00:08Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:00:38Z jdz: guthur: Xach has (at least had) a blog post about this 2016-05-04T12:00:47Z rudolfochrist: (asdf:system-source-directory :system-name) 2016-05-04T12:01:10Z jdz: maybe this one: http://xach.livejournal.com/294639.html 2016-05-04T12:01:21Z jdz: (first result in google...) 2016-05-04T12:02:39Z guthur: jdz: cheers, google-fu had got me there 2016-05-04T12:06:21Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:06:25Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:06:45Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:07:05Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:09:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:13:19Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T12:14:06Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:14:11Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:15:05Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-04T12:16:41Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:18:44Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:19:11Z igam`: guthur: the "app directory" is not a Common Lisp, and not a POSIX notion. So you would have to elaborate on what you really want. On MacOSX you can use [[NSBundle mainBundle] bundlePath] to get the ".app directory", if you catch my drift. Unix programs or application are usually stored in /usr/local/bin or in /opt, with application files in other /usr/local or /opt directories… You can get the path of the executable as $0 (argv[0], 2016-05-04T12:19:11Z igam`: etc), with some processing possibly taking care of the PATH environment variable. 2016-05-04T12:19:48Z Munksgaard left #lisp 2016-05-04T12:20:13Z igam`: guthur: I honestly fail to see the point of having the path to the source directory, given that it is usually on a computer thousands of kilometers away, and possibly not even connected anymore to the running computer. 2016-05-04T12:21:52Z mbuf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T12:26:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:27:44Z igam`: guthur: oh, and it should be mentionned that Common Lisp provides logical pathnames to deal with paths to such app directory. In your lisp program, you can use pathnames like: #P"APP:SUBDIR;RESOURCE.TYPE" to access the application files. Then you only need to define the APP logical pathname translations in the initialization routine of your program. 2016-05-04T12:28:32Z igam`: This can be done by loading logical pathname translations from a file, either at an absolute path, or relative to the user homedir pathname, that can be used to configure all those logical pathnames. 2016-05-04T12:29:08Z igam`: (but then you would need an installation procedure to set those logical pathname translation files, or ask the user to configure them manually). 2016-05-04T12:31:25Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:31:47Z Xach: the solution is to have only a dozen instances of your app at gigantic customers paying huge contracts 2016-05-04T12:31:57Z Xach: then you can set them up custom every time 2016-05-04T12:32:00Z guthur: igam`: yeah fair points 2016-05-04T12:32:14Z moore33: Xach: How's that working? :) 2016-05-04T12:32:19Z Xach: someday... 2016-05-04T12:32:43Z guthur: Xach: ah, those were the days, hehe 2016-05-04T12:33:23Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:33:24Z guthur: i've actually deferred solving this problem until I have a better idea of what i need 2016-05-04T12:33:56Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:34:20Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:34:25Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-04T12:34:38Z igam`: guthur: one solution is not to keep external application files. Instead, you can load them into the image before you save it. 2016-05-04T12:34:45Z engblom quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-04T12:34:52Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:36:07Z guthur: igam`: not an unappealling option 2016-05-04T12:36:09Z Xach: i sometimes wish for a virtual in-core FS that standard functions grok 2016-05-04T12:36:31Z Xach: I think someone did some variation of it, but the details escape me 2016-05-04T12:36:49Z guthur: cheers all, need to go 2016-05-04T12:36:55Z guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T12:37:50Z igam`: Xach: Yes, I started to work on it. But in pure CL, without using eg. Gray streams. That project is suspended. It would be more quickly realized by using Gray streams, which I know better know and could use for it. 2016-05-04T12:38:37Z Xach: I don't think gray streams gets you close enough. They don't say anything about e.g. DIRECTORY or OPEN. 2016-05-04T12:38:44Z igam`: It's in $informatimago/future/vfs/ 2016-05-04T12:38:50Z Xach: I was thinking of custom hacks for sbcl. 2016-05-04T12:40:25Z igam`: Let's try to write portable code. The other implementations are nice too. 2016-05-04T12:41:02Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T12:41:46Z schaueho quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T12:41:55Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:42:00Z Xach: It would be nice if it was possible, but I don't think it is. It is a hack for each, and SBCL is what I primarily use. 2016-05-04T12:43:33Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:46:48Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T12:47:05Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:47:41Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:50:13Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:51:12Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:51:17Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:53:02Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:53:23Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:53:47Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T12:54:59Z egg_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:55:12Z egg_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-04T12:55:27Z algae joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:55:51Z _0xd3_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:56:14Z logicmoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T12:58:41Z i44_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T12:59:48Z i44_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T12:59:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:00:32Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:03:04Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T13:03:43Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:04:05Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T13:04:12Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T13:07:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:10:28Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:14:46Z i44 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T13:15:29Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:16:06Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:32:02Z _0xd3_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T13:33:03Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:35:16Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:36:18Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:37:04Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:37:28Z gargaml joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:38:14Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:41:28Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:43:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:45:09Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:45:34Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:47:03Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:51:09Z Thulsadum quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:54:46Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:54:46Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T13:54:53Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:55:09Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:55:29Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:55:38Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:56:25Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:56:28Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:57:40Z Thulsadum joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:58:00Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T13:58:07Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-04T13:58:13Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2016-05-04T13:58:39Z rudolfochrist: hi 2016-05-04T13:58:54Z jackdaniel: hello o/ 2016-05-04T13:59:31Z moore33: beach: Knocking off early? :) 2016-05-04T13:59:33Z beach: jackdaniel: "teach Common Lisp", not "teach the Common Lisp". 2016-05-04T13:59:55Z beach: moore33: Yeah. Preparing the trip to Poland. 2016-05-04T14:00:13Z moore33: beach: Ah. When are you leaving? 2016-05-04T14:00:25Z beach: Tomorrow morning. 2016-05-04T14:00:38Z rudolfochrist: so early? 2016-05-04T14:01:10Z beach: Yeah. I'll go by Warsaw and have a look. Never been there before. 2016-05-04T14:01:33Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks :) 2016-05-04T14:02:43Z beach: jackdaniel: Or "teach the Common Lisp language". Go figure. 2016-05-04T14:02:49Z beach: English is strange. 2016-05-04T14:03:08Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:03:16Z Thulsadum quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:03:28Z jackdaniel: tell me what do you think about the overall content if you've read it already :) 2016-05-04T14:03:32Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:03:52Z beach: jackdaniel: Looks good. I am eager to see what you are going to say around it. 2016-05-04T14:03:58Z moore33: beach: When are you returning? 2016-05-04T14:04:10Z beach: moore33: Thursday next week. 2016-05-04T14:04:16Z moore33: OK 2016-05-04T14:04:46Z jackdaniel: beach: well, not much, maybe a word or two, but the meat is there already 2016-05-04T14:08:01Z beach: jackdaniel: Also, remember that there are other "Lisps" represented at ELS; not only Common Lisp. 2016-05-04T14:08:41Z jackdaniel: yes, but the lightning talk is about contributing to the Common Lisp ecosystem 2016-05-04T14:08:44Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:09:02Z jackdaniel: I have no experience with other lisps 2016-05-04T14:09:10Z beach: Yes, I know. I am just warning you that not everybody will agree that's a good thing. :) 2016-05-04T14:09:24Z jackdaniel: right, thanks 2016-05-04T14:09:24Z moore33: They can get stuffed:) 2016-05-04T14:09:35Z beach: :) 2016-05-04T14:10:15Z beach: Does anyone have an idea how many people are registered already? 2016-05-04T14:10:33Z TeMPOraL: mrSpec probably has 2016-05-04T14:10:50Z beach: Is he the organizer? 2016-05-04T14:10:57Z jackdaniel: he's the local chair 2016-05-04T14:11:07Z beach: Ah, great! 2016-05-04T14:11:35Z kostafey joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:11:51Z jackdaniel: this year I'll take my Lisp in Small Pieces to get two autographs at ELS :P 2016-05-04T14:12:02Z jackdaniel: beach: ~60 people 2016-05-04T14:12:10Z beach: Not bad at all. 2016-05-04T14:13:01Z beach: Good plan about the autographs! :) 2016-05-04T14:13:18Z TeMPOraL: yeah, I'm wondering who I can get autographs from this year 2016-05-04T14:13:32Z TeMPOraL: I have two LoLs and Edi's new book waiting for signatures :D 2016-05-04T14:14:23Z beach: TeMPOraL: I take it your Lisp in Small Pieces already has the autographs? 2016-05-04T14:15:01Z TeMPOraL: beach: I don't have a copy yet, not sure if I'll arrange to have one delivered before ELS :< 2016-05-04T14:15:22Z beach: That might be a problem, yes. 2016-05-04T14:15:47Z TeMPOraL: beach: unless you happen to have one spare that I could buy off from you :) 2016-05-04T14:15:57Z moore33: beach: Is the Lisp in Small Pieces translator going too? 2016-05-04T14:16:03Z beach: moore33: Yes. 2016-05-04T14:16:10Z moore33: Excellent! 2016-05-04T14:16:29Z beach: TeMPOraL: Nope, sorry! :) 2016-05-04T14:16:43Z kostafey left #lisp 2016-05-04T14:16:47Z jackdaniel: btw, if anyone will be in Poznań by chance, please let me know 2016-05-04T14:16:48Z TeMPOraL: :< 2016-05-04T14:17:03Z kostafey joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:17:06Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T14:17:27Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:17:38Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:17:56Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:18:03Z kostafey quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T14:18:21Z sedykhk joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:18:24Z sedykhk is now known as kostafey 2016-05-04T14:18:49Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:25:29Z beach: I have some Polish money printed in 1982. One is a 1000PLN bill with a picture of Copernicus, and the other a 500PLN with a picture of Tadeusz Kosciuszko. Are those bills still valid? 2016-05-04T14:25:45Z beach: If not, I'll give it to someone who collects old money. 2016-05-04T14:26:14Z jackdaniel: beach: they aren't 2016-05-04T14:26:39Z beach: :( 2016-05-04T14:27:18Z jackdaniel: even if they were, we had a hyperinflation somewhere in the meantime, so 1M old PLN was exchanged for 100 new PLN 2016-05-04T14:27:25Z jackdaniel: it wouldn't be worth much 2016-05-04T14:27:38Z beach: Ah, that was my next question. Thanks! 2016-05-04T14:28:31Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:29:12Z Thulsadum joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:31:40Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:35:33Z rudolfochrist quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-04T14:38:56Z varjag: also it's PLZ 2016-05-04T14:39:01Z varjag: as it's pre-1995 2016-05-04T14:39:21Z beach: Right. Thanks. 2016-05-04T14:39:31Z varjag: (not that it matters) 2016-05-04T14:40:50Z beach: Whether it matters or not, I am still interested in such facts. 2016-05-04T14:41:56Z lerax left #lisp 2016-05-04T14:42:08Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:42:19Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:42:21Z beach: So what is the likelihood that I will find an interested collector who will take this money? 2016-05-04T14:42:29Z beach: I have some coins too. 2016-05-04T14:43:04Z jackdaniel: if they are "like new", ie not damaged, they may be worth something 2016-05-04T14:43:06Z theos: put them on ebay 2016-05-04T14:43:15Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:43:25Z jackdaniel: but if they have usage signs, I think they aren't worth much 2016-05-04T14:43:32Z beach: I'll just give them to the first one who wants them. 2016-05-04T14:43:46Z beach: I wasn't going to charge for it. 2016-05-04T14:43:59Z theos: you can give them away with your books 2016-05-04T14:44:10Z fitzsim quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T14:44:31Z beach: Kind of hard to organize. 2016-05-04T14:44:31Z TeMPOraL would happily take a book, with or without the money xD 2016-05-04T14:44:33Z jackdaniel: I don't know any collector by myslef, no idea 2016-05-04T14:44:34Z theos: buy book, get old polish coins free 2016-05-04T14:44:46Z beach: Heh! 2016-05-04T14:45:16Z jackdaniel: but I'll take the books ;) 2016-05-04T14:45:47Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:45:52Z beach: I don't have copies of my books, other than the proofs. They are printed on demand when they are bought. 2016-05-04T14:46:54Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:48:20Z theos: thats a very nice system 2016-05-04T14:48:56Z beach: I agree. 2016-05-04T14:50:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:53:23Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:54:58Z logicmoo quit 2016-05-04T14:55:19Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-04T14:55:39Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:55:46Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T14:56:54Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T14:57:22Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T14:58:08Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:01:13Z logicmoo quit 2016-05-04T15:02:01Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:02:37Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:05:26Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:06:51Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:07:36Z kostafey left #lisp 2016-05-04T15:08:33Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:08:44Z i44 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T15:12:03Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:14:26Z igam`: beach: you could try ebay: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.X1000+plz+1982+copernicu.TRS0&_nkw=1000+plz+1982+copernicus&_sacat=0 2016-05-04T15:14:58Z igam`: One 1000 PLZ for $2.99. 2016-05-04T15:15:23Z beach: Sorry, not worth my time. But thanks for the hint. 2016-05-04T15:15:31Z igam`: At least, for banknotes, transport will be cheap and easy to arrange :-) 2016-05-04T15:16:10Z igam`: Yes, time worthiness explains why so many things end in the garbage instead of being recycled… 2016-05-04T15:16:49Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:17:47Z beach: I suggested giving them away to avoid that. 2016-05-04T15:18:19Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T15:21:41Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:25:30Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T15:26:40Z oleo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:27:13Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T15:28:07Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:29:24Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:29:24Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T15:29:40Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:31:24Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:31:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:31:35Z bugtroll joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:31:44Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:33:30Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T15:35:09Z bugtroll quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T15:35:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T15:36:00Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:36:19Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T15:36:30Z bugtroll joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:36:49Z bugtroll left #lisp 2016-05-04T15:37:27Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:39:10Z bugtroll joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:39:11Z bugtroll quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T15:40:28Z bugtroll joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:40:41Z bugtroll quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T15:41:32Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:41:45Z igam`: beach: the problem is to find somebody interested in them :-) My suggestion was to use ebay to find interested recipients, more than for the money. 2016-05-04T15:42:01Z beach: Ah, yes, I see. 2016-05-04T15:42:23Z badkins quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T15:47:44Z igam`: Also, take for example audio CD. I've got quite a few of them, copied on hard drives. I'd like to give them. I could spend two hours and sell them to a store for about 60 euros. (Hardly worth my time to go there and back, but I could benefit from the physical exercise). But then giving them to somebody is not necessarily making them a favor, since they'd be better served by receiving a copy on their hard disk, which could even be done 2016-05-04T15:47:44Z igam`: without having to move, or requiring space (a house) to store them. Finding somebody interested in them would also require more time… 2016-05-04T15:49:21Z igam`: Not too lispy, but that's the state of our civilisation; in 30 years we won't own anything physical anymore but some body-integrated computer. 2016-05-04T15:52:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:54:28Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:54:42Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:55:27Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:55:47Z thijso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T15:55:54Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2016-05-04T15:55:59Z philipchange joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:57:09Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-04T15:57:40Z philipchange: i found a page on https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cloud/doc 2016-05-04T15:58:29Z philipchange: but i cannot find the project "cloud" on internet 2016-05-04T15:58:42Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:58:54Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T15:59:20Z philipchange: i search "cloud" in the quicklisp list and find nothing.. 2016-05-04T15:59:25Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-04T15:59:30Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:00:10Z beach: Somebody wrote documentation but no code? That would be a first. 2016-05-04T16:01:39Z philipchange: maybe,the project "cloud" lauched in 2009,and its doc said " it needs iterate and McCLIM" 2016-05-04T16:03:37Z philipchange: its doc has so much details that it looks like a project which can be used 2016-05-04T16:04:02Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T16:04:10Z Xach: It is interesting that no contact info or download info is included. I would guess it is dead or renamed. 2016-05-04T16:04:42Z philipchange: what a pity 2016-05-04T16:04:50Z warweasle: beach: Actually, that's pretty common in business. 2016-05-04T16:04:52Z mrcom joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:05:42Z beach: warweasle: I meant for Common Lisp. 2016-05-04T16:06:51Z warweasle: beach: I'm sure project manager can do that for any language. 2016-05-04T16:07:16Z philipchange: i am trying to use cl to read data from binary file and i find the project "cloud" has "read-bytes" function that can deal with the little-endian float 2016-05-04T16:07:41Z Xach: philipchange: It is pretty easy to make that from scratch, too. 2016-05-04T16:07:42Z phoe_krk: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/954b/f3fdef68c5928d7808da3eac5f318bd9257c.pdf This is some fairly interesting read after 32 years. 2016-05-04T16:07:53Z Xach: philipchange: and there is the "binary-types" project that also does it, and some other projects too. 2016-05-04T16:08:13Z Xach: phoe_krk: i wish the file name gave away more info about the content 2016-05-04T16:08:53Z warweasle: Isn't there an example of this in Practical Common Lisp? 2016-05-04T16:09:17Z Xach: warweasle: yes 2016-05-04T16:09:50Z Xach: philipchange: it comes down to reading 8 bits at a time with read-byte and then doing some operations to combine them appropriately. 2016-05-04T16:09:57Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:10:02Z philipchange: xach:thank you,i will try it 2016-05-04T16:10:12Z Xach: (or using read-sequence and extracting elements from the 8-bit values in the sequence) 2016-05-04T16:10:22Z phoe_krk: Xach: A Critique of Common Lisp. 2016-05-04T16:10:23Z phoe_krk: "COMMON LISP requires a large computer memory. To support only the function names 2016-05-04T16:10:26Z phoe_krk: and keyword names alone requires many kilobytes. " 2016-05-04T16:10:29Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-05-04T16:10:29Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:10:38Z Xach: Eight megs and constantly swapping 2016-05-04T16:10:46Z jackdaniel: heheh 2016-05-04T16:11:50Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:11:56Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: today it only means that CL isn't feasible for microcontrollers like avr and would be hard to fit on stm32 2016-05-04T16:12:10Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: I'm curious about PicoLisp 2016-05-04T16:12:37Z jackdaniel: what about it? 2016-05-04T16:12:39Z phoe_krk: and programming microcontrollers in it. 2016-05-04T16:12:48Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-04T16:12:56Z jackdaniel: I'd go with microscheme for microcontrollers and armpit for stm 2016-05-04T16:13:39Z phoe_krk: Oh, thanks for these. 2016-05-04T16:13:48Z dwchandler: If I were making a scheme for such things I'd call it Schematic 2016-05-04T16:14:04Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-04T16:14:04Z jackdaniel: nice name indeed 2016-05-04T16:14:16Z phoe_krk: a very nice name 2016-05-04T16:14:41Z thijso joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:15:36Z igam` quit (Quit: long week end) 2016-05-04T16:15:50Z jackdaniel: picolisp supports only x86(-64) afaik, but I may be mistaken 2016-05-04T16:15:55Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:24:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:26:16Z warweasle quit (Quit: gotta go) 2016-05-04T16:29:08Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:30:30Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:33:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:34:12Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:37:53Z bullets: out of curiosity 2016-05-04T16:38:25Z bullets: if one wanted to provide a subset of common lisp, with only some of the builtins (like #'+ #'cons and so on) 2016-05-04T16:39:04Z bullets: and unintern all the other stuff, but still ship some functions that call some uninterned functions 2016-05-04T16:39:22Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:39:54Z bullets: like eg (defun something (_) (list ...)) and then (unintern 'list) 2016-05-04T16:39:59Z bullets: it still works, right? 2016-05-04T16:40:40Z moore33: It might. 2016-05-04T16:41:21Z phoe_krk: bullets: we have a CL-based bot on #lisp-pl 2016-05-04T16:41:50Z phoe_krk: and went *really* creative and over the edge with how, in spite of a custom reader and a lot of shadowed functions, we can break out of its sandbox. 2016-05-04T16:42:01Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: right? 2016-05-04T16:42:47Z beach: phoe_krk: I recommend you use first-class global environments for sandboxing: http://metamodular.com/environments.pdf 2016-05-04T16:42:52Z bullets: wow, did you manage to break out? 2016-05-04T16:43:51Z phoe_krk: beach: yes, beach, I know about your papers on first class environments. :P 2016-05-04T16:45:10Z phoe_krk: I might implement it someday, when I'm not so rushed with everything. 2016-05-04T16:45:19Z phoe_krk: bullets: yes, many times, in different ways. 2016-05-04T16:45:44Z phoe_krk: Lisp is a language that seems almost constructed to be the ultimate puzzle quest. 2016-05-04T16:46:10Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T16:46:19Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:46:37Z kostafey joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:46:56Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:47:06Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-04T16:47:31Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:47:50Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:47:53Z phoe_krk: Find your way out of the sandboxed package using a function that returns a symbol bound in another package, get that package using a function someone forgot to unintern, run things inside COMMON-LISP package using the #. notation, utilize it to Quickload bordeaux-threads and force the bot thread to evaluate a function that prints important data on STDIO, utilize that data to find out how to run an UIOP run- 2016-05-04T16:47:58Z akkad: (cl-json:decode-json (car (uiop:run-program "zcat ~/test.json.gz" :output :string))) ;; thought this would work 2016-05-04T16:47:59Z phoe_krk: command-based shell on the same machine and SSH it to ourselves for fixing a few quirks in the bot itself before cleaning up. 2016-05-04T16:48:05Z phoe_krk: We haven't done most of this yet but only because me and TeMPOraL weren't bored enough. 2016-05-04T16:48:27Z phoe_krk: And Lisp hacking gains a completely new meaning. 2016-05-04T16:48:29Z kdas_ is now known as kushal 2016-05-04T16:48:35Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2016-05-04T16:48:35Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:51:31Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:51:31Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T16:51:59Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:52:13Z bullets: sounds fun 2016-05-04T16:52:27Z phoe_krk: It is. 2016-05-04T16:52:41Z bullets: that's kinda what I want to do actually 2016-05-04T16:52:49Z phoe_krk: ...oh shit. 2016-05-04T16:52:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:53:03Z phoe_krk: Brb, gotta tell people on #lisp-pl to put ood down. 2016-05-04T16:53:04Z bullets: well, my idea is simulating an operating system in CL where users and processses are managed as namespaces 2016-05-04T16:53:08Z phoe_krk: ...oh. 2016-05-04T16:53:10Z bullets: lol 2016-05-04T16:53:11Z phoe_krk: I see. 2016-05-04T16:53:12Z phoe_krk: Okay. 2016-05-04T16:54:09Z bullets: lol you thought.. 2016-05-04T16:54:11Z beach: bullets: That's precisely the reason I came up with first-class global environments. But I guess your Common Lisp system does not have them. 2016-05-04T16:54:35Z bullets: first class global environments 2016-05-04T16:54:56Z bullets: what happened with the 'CL can do anything'? 2016-05-04T16:55:12Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T16:56:01Z philipchange left #lisp 2016-05-04T16:56:11Z beach: Yes, of course. It is just a question of how hard it is to do. 2016-05-04T16:57:18Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T16:57:33Z bullets: Yeah.. well a global lexical environment shouldn't be too hard, or am I missing something? 2016-05-04T16:57:54Z dlowe: you'd need a super-global environment to manage it all :) 2016-05-04T16:58:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T16:58:31Z bullets: heheh. first class super-globar environments afterwards 2016-05-04T16:59:13Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: yeah, we did 2016-05-04T16:59:29Z TeMPOraL: I don't think you can really sandbox a lisp evaluator 2016-05-04T16:59:34Z TeMPOraL: you'll always miss something stupid 2016-05-04T16:59:50Z TeMPOraL: like, I don't know, *print-circle* set to nil ;) 2016-05-04T17:00:00Z TeMPOraL: or, (delete-package *package*) working 2016-05-04T17:00:15Z TeMPOraL: it's easier to trash the bot than to break *out* of the sandbox though ;) 2016-05-04T17:00:20Z dlowe: denial of service is impossible to sandbox. 2016-05-04T17:00:22Z dwchandler: safer to whitelist things than to blacklist them 2016-05-04T17:00:22Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:00:31Z TeMPOraL: thrash* 2016-05-04T17:00:38Z dlowe: the best you can do is detect when your sandbox is unresponsive and trash it 2016-05-04T17:02:45Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:02:50Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:02:54Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T17:03:08Z TeMPOraL: dlowe: we were almost out of sandbox though, I just have to do some *actual* work at work every now and then, so I didn't follow through 2016-05-04T17:03:37Z TeMPOraL: but we've managed to trick our way into getting useful symbols from CL and various SB-* packages :) 2016-05-04T17:03:43Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:03:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:04:53Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:07:03Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:07:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:08:40Z bullets: beach: so um, how is a package different from a global environment? 2016-05-04T17:08:41Z mishoo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:10:10Z beach: bullets: A package maps names (strings) to symbols. A first-class global environments maps names (symbols, function names, etc) to entities such as functions, classes, types, etc. 2016-05-04T17:10:53Z ramky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T17:11:17Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:11:23Z bullets: oh.. 2016-05-04T17:12:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:13:32Z pjb: beach: packages are named by strings. Are they bound in global environments? 2016-05-04T17:13:33Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:13:42Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:14:06Z bullets: huh? 2016-05-04T17:14:26Z beach: pjb: What I do is similar to what is done with classes, i.e., the package does have an intrinsic name, but I also map strings to packages in the environment. 2016-05-04T17:14:44Z pjb: Good. 2016-05-04T17:15:02Z pjb: You mean that the mapped name and the intrinsic name could be different? 2016-05-04T17:15:43Z pjb: (The same package could be known by different names in different environments, that'd be nice). 2016-05-04T17:17:47Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:18:39Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:20:05Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:21:58Z ghard joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:25:09Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:26:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:26:31Z ggole quit 2016-05-04T17:26:38Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:28:19Z akkad: the performance gain of the first one is really fast. is the second one doing something stupid? https://gist.github.com/8137464481275ad5235cbafbd4efd2cc 2016-05-04T17:28:58Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:30:24Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:30:24Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T17:31:20Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:32:08Z jsgrant wants to mess about with GUI hacking in CL, but doesn't know if he should look into McClim or Qtools more. :^P 2016-05-04T17:32:55Z TeMPOraL: McClim is alive? 2016-05-04T17:32:56Z jsgrant: McClim is the more pure and likely more portable in the realm of my interest, but Qtools seems a bit more complete because it's leveraging off QT proper.. 2016-05-04T17:33:20Z jsgrant: TeMPOraL: More-or-less. beach has been rocking it a lil. 2016-05-04T17:33:34Z TeMPOraL: jsgrant: what implementations and OSes it works on? 2016-05-04T17:33:54Z jsgrant: But he's got so many projects, I think it's probably to find the time to work on any one thing to significant degree. 2016-05-04T17:34:13Z TeMPOraL: "It currently works on X Windows using CLX. It works with CMUCL, SBCL, CLISP, OpenMCL, Allegro CL, LispWorks, and the Scieneer CL." 2016-05-04T17:34:25Z andrei-n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T17:34:48Z TeMPOraL: gonna test it at some point then; I wonder what it would take to make it work on win32 (shipping an x-server along?) 2016-05-04T17:35:25Z jsgrant: TeMPOraL: Yeah, no idea. Haven't really messed with it at all besides running a few examples; I was on Linux w/ Xorg. 2016-05-04T17:35:47Z jsgrant: Via SBCL. 2016-05-04T17:36:04Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:36:39Z jsgrant: TeMPOraL: My hope, is that it gets some support as backend for Paulownia. 2016-05-04T17:36:57Z jsgrant: But that's not a portability issue, that's my very specific usecase. 2016-05-04T17:37:42Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:37:59Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T17:38:55Z TMM joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:40:58Z jsgrant doesn't really do/need much traditional gui programs -- beach's cluffer is of much more direct interest to me, but yeah, I'd probably rather to stay relatively "pure" regardless. 2016-05-04T17:40:58Z yeticry quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-04T17:41:46Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T17:42:55Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:44:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:44:57Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:45:21Z logicmoo quit 2016-05-04T17:46:18Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:46:33Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-05-04T17:48:09Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:48:40Z sebboh: Hi all! Suppose a common lisp application which can load, edit, and save files. A trivial file format for these files might be a single s-expression saved as text. What file extension would you give a datafile such as this? 2016-05-04T17:49:13Z TeMPOraL: .dat? .sxp? depends 2016-05-04T17:49:17Z TeMPOraL: extensions are arbitrary 2016-05-04T17:49:27Z TeMPOraL uses .dat for serialized data dumps most of the time 2016-05-04T17:49:43Z sebboh: Just wondering if there is a convention. I have .sexp currently. 2016-05-04T17:49:45Z varjag: .conses 2016-05-04T17:51:06Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2016-05-04T17:51:18Z sebboh: .dat is probably the most correct, since it means "application specific file" whereever you go... 2016-05-04T17:51:58Z sebboh: But it connotes non-text data... 2016-05-04T17:52:26Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2016-05-04T17:52:34Z TeMPOraL: sebboh: people use .dat for weird stuff, text too 2016-05-04T17:52:42Z TeMPOraL: .bin does indeed connote non-text data 2016-05-04T17:52:46Z TeMPOraL: but .dat IMO doesn't 2016-05-04T17:53:32Z sebboh: Sure, I've seen plenty of .dat files that were completely text. ...A small percentage of the total .dat files I've looked inside, but that's still plenty. ;) 2016-05-04T17:53:43Z jsgrant: *.stf (stuff) ? 2016-05-04T17:53:46Z jsgrant: :^P 2016-05-04T17:53:54Z TeMPOraL: you can always troll people by using .xml 2016-05-04T17:53:56Z TeMPOraL: :D 2016-05-04T17:54:06Z jsgrant: sxml. 2016-05-04T17:54:15Z TeMPOraL: .better.xml 2016-05-04T17:54:32Z sebboh: stf sounds like a mac-specific compressed archive format. 2016-05-04T17:54:35Z TeMPOraL: hmm lol 2016-05-04T17:54:41Z TeMPOraL realized .sxml wasn't a joke 2016-05-04T17:54:43Z TeMPOraL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SXML 2016-05-04T17:55:02Z jsgrant: TeMPOraL: Yeah, never used it though. 2016-05-04T17:55:14Z jsgrant: Don't really get the usecase, over normal xml. 2016-05-04T17:55:26Z jsgrant: sebboh: .stff *? 2016-05-04T17:55:51Z mood: I tend to just not add a file extension 2016-05-04T17:56:19Z sebboh: I like file extensions for data files, so I can mv *.dat for example. 2016-05-04T17:56:37Z jsgrant: sebboh: ++ Yeah, very handy. 2016-05-04T17:56:40Z mood: I put them in a directory for that purpose 2016-05-04T17:56:47Z TeMPOraL: .sexp ain't that bad though 2016-05-04T17:56:57Z jsgrant: mood: Eh, true too. 2016-05-04T17:56:58Z TeMPOraL: ok, time to go home 2016-05-04T17:57:01Z sebboh: mood: me too, but I use *.ext to get them there. ;) 2016-05-04T17:57:03Z TeMPOraL: bbl :) 2016-05-04T17:57:08Z sebboh: thanks for the feedback all! 2016-05-04T17:57:17Z jsgrant: TeMPOraL: o/ 2016-05-04T17:57:58Z beach: pjb: Yes, the same package can have a different name in different environments. 2016-05-04T17:58:44Z logicmoo quit 2016-05-04T17:59:37Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-04T18:00:49Z dmiles_afk joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:02:07Z dmiles_afk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T18:02:44Z OrangeShark_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:03:16Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:04:17Z OrangeShark quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:08:14Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:10:24Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:10:33Z pjb: beach: great! 2016-05-04T18:14:36Z Bicyclidine joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:14:53Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2016-05-04T18:21:15Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:21:16Z drmeister: I wrote a blog post: comments welcome 2016-05-04T18:21:17Z drmeister: https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/linking-llvm-bitcode-files-for-a-dynamic-language/ 2016-05-04T18:22:46Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T18:22:56Z oskarth joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:25:04Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-05-04T18:25:04Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:26:59Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:27:49Z phoe_krk: drmeister: so, as I see it, you're basically making a chain of these that then fire when you load up Clasp. Am I at least close to being correct? 2016-05-04T18:27:50Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:28:02Z drmeister: Yes. 2016-05-04T18:28:29Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:28:30Z drmeister: Starting up Clasp evaluates every top-level from from start to finish. It takes < 5 seconds. 2016-05-04T18:29:31Z drmeister: I learned recently that emacs worked around this by using a special function in the C library and that special function is currently being considered for removal. 2016-05-04T18:29:40Z phoe_krk: Can/Will/Should these < 5 seconds ever be compressed/compressable? 2016-05-04T18:29:59Z Bicyclidine: huh, i had never heard of appending linkage before 2016-05-04T18:30:22Z phoe_krk: I mean, for any special cases one could consider, such as heavily consolidating the forms. 2016-05-04T18:30:25Z drmeister: Yes - once Clasp has the ability to park and write the current image to a file - then reloading that file and restarting will be almost instantaneous. 2016-05-04T18:30:38Z phoe_krk: Oh, so basically hibernation. 2016-05-04T18:31:09Z drmeister: I wrote this blog because I had to piece this approach together from a lot of other sources and I thought maybe someone would find it useful. 2016-05-04T18:31:12Z phoe_krk: And shall it become corrupt for any reason, Clasp will be able to recreate it. 2016-05-04T18:31:47Z drmeister: phoe_krk: Right - you need cooperation from the garbage collector. I've been talking to the MPS folks about it. They don't support it yet but they want to. 2016-05-04T18:32:00Z phoe_krk: MPS folks? 2016-05-04T18:32:16Z drmeister: But lots of systems suffer from this. I think clojure startups are long for the same reason. 2016-05-04T18:32:17Z Bicyclidine: memory pool system is the gc meister uses that isn't boehm 2016-05-04T18:32:31Z phoe_krk: Also, drmeister, SBCL does something when it produces an executable! Like, moving lots of stuff into non-GCable area. 2016-05-04T18:32:35Z drmeister: I wouldn't bother doing it with Boehm. 2016-05-04T18:32:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:32:42Z dmiles joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:32:46Z phoe_krk: So it becomes quick to use and basically, constantly available. 2016-05-04T18:33:03Z phoe_krk: I read about it once or twice, so just throwing a hint your way. It's called purification in SBCL-slang or something. 2016-05-04T18:33:16Z drmeister: phoe_krk: MPS is the Memory Pool System garbage collector - it's a compacting GC. 2016-05-04T18:33:34Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:33:43Z phoe_krk: Gotcha. 2016-05-04T18:34:18Z Bicyclidine: i'm happy to know there's still work on it. from the docs it seemed very sophisticated but also not used except by dylan 2016-05-04T18:35:06Z drmeister: It's used by commercial clients where it is integral to the design. 2016-05-04T18:35:52Z drmeister: But wider adoption would be great. It's a great library. 2016-05-04T18:36:34Z Bicyclidine: yea, i wanna use it in my own pet project... i'd rather not be stuck with C, though. 2016-05-04T18:36:45Z drmeister: The activation barrier is pretty high to using it though. They acknowledge that. They need a Boehm-like mode that would let people ease into it. 2016-05-04T18:36:58Z ghard quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T18:38:17Z Bicyclidine: that too. their scheme example is great, though. 2016-05-04T18:39:48Z phoe_krk: "When you compile a function that creates closures, the closures it creates will also be compiled." 2016-05-04T18:39:52Z phoe_krk: WAIT WOAH WHAT 2016-05-04T18:40:05Z phoe_krk continues experiencing minor enlightenments while reading Let Over Lambda. 2016-05-04T18:41:20Z phoe_krk: So. Let me sum up. 2016-05-04T18:41:31Z Bicyclidine: hm, i wonder if that's necessarily true... i suppose it must be just for lexical reasons 2016-05-04T18:42:21Z phoe_krk: I have a function that's wrapped in a closure. It's bound to *function*. 2016-05-04T18:42:31Z Bicyclidine: also, defmacro/g! from that book is incorrect. please do not come in here and complain that it doesn't work on sbcl 2016-05-04T18:42:39Z moore33: phoe_krk: The code for the closures is kind of part of the function. 2016-05-04T18:43:02Z jackdaniel: local global variables :) 2016-05-04T18:43:14Z phoe_krk: The moment I (setf *function* nil), the function and the closure can/will both be GCed, right? 2016-05-04T18:43:46Z Bicyclidine: not at that particular moment, no 2016-05-04T18:43:47Z jackdaniel: if there is no other reference then yes 2016-05-04T18:44:00Z Bicyclidine: oh, can be. yeah, sure 2016-05-04T18:44:05Z phoe_krk: Good, then I did get that right. 2016-05-04T18:44:09Z moore33: phoe_krk: I think you're terminology is a bit off. A function isn't "wrapped in a closure," it is a closure. 2016-05-04T18:44:11Z phoe_krk: Bicyclidine: why is it broken though? 2016-05-04T18:44:19Z phoe_krk: moore33: oh, a function *is* a closure. I see. 2016-05-04T18:44:20Z moore33: It closes over variables. 2016-05-04T18:44:31Z Bicyclidine: because it assumes that the ` read macro returns a tree of conses 2016-05-04T18:44:47Z moore33: moore33:Or, more accurately, a closure is a function. 2016-05-04T18:46:25Z Bicyclidine: of course, there could be more than one closure in that environment, e.g. you could have (let ((value 0)) (setf *set-value* (lambda (v) (setf value v)) *get-value* (lambda () v))), and then (setf *get-value* nil) wouldn't destroy the other closure 2016-05-04T18:46:39Z Bicyclidine: and that other closure would probably keep that environment around 2016-05-04T18:46:45Z Bicyclidine quit (Quit: walker) 2016-05-04T18:48:06Z phoe_krk: What does the ` reader macro return that isn't a tree of conses? 2016-05-04T18:48:52Z moore33: phoe_krk: It can, and does return in sbcl IIRC, a structure. 2016-05-04T18:52:03Z mishoo__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:53:06Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:54:00Z phoe_krk: moore33: ah-ha! #S(SB-IMPL::COMMA :EXPR X :KIND 0) indeed. 2016-05-04T18:54:29Z phoe_krk: That's SBCL's ,X without a quasiquote. 2016-05-04T18:56:31Z preferslisp joined #lisp 2016-05-04T18:58:21Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T18:59:41Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T19:01:53Z phoe_krk: ...hey, wait. That's the , macro. 2016-05-04T19:02:04Z phoe_krk: The ` macro *seems* to return a tree of conses. At least to me. 2016-05-04T19:02:20Z phoe_krk: Could you provide me with an example where it doesn't? 2016-05-04T19:04:03Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: '`x 2016-05-04T19:04:16Z jackdaniel: in ecl it expand to (si:quasiquote x), but in sbcl it stays `x 2016-05-04T19:04:59Z jackdaniel: wait, nvm 2016-05-04T19:07:11Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: (car '`x) 2016-05-04T19:07:33Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T19:07:44Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T19:08:02Z jackdaniel: hence the nvm 2016-05-04T19:08:37Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:08:52Z cvoxel joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:10:18Z preferslisp quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-04T19:13:39Z TeMPOraL: jackdaniel: set *print-pretty* to nil and try again 2016-05-04T19:16:55Z preferslisp joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:18:25Z optikalmouse quit (Quit: optikalmouse) 2016-05-04T19:18:36Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T19:22:03Z jackdaniel: HENCE THE NVM 2016-05-04T19:22:05Z jackdaniel: ;D:D 2016-05-04T19:30:15Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T19:30:17Z BitPuffin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T19:30:38Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:30:51Z emaczen: ,rest 2016-05-04T19:34:22Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T19:35:55Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:36:25Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T19:36:26Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:36:35Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-04T19:36:50Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:41:00Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:41:52Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T19:43:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:45:31Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:49:20Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T19:49:49Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T19:50:03Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:51:24Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:54:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T19:58:16Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:01:25Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:01:29Z nikki93_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:02:45Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:05:59Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:11:18Z modula joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:11:33Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:12:04Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:12:05Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2016-05-04T20:12:15Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:12:35Z emaczen: How do I convert integers to characters/ 2016-05-04T20:12:36Z emaczen: ? 2016-05-04T20:13:36Z dlowe: (code-char 64) 2016-05-04T20:13:49Z emaczen: dlowe: thanks 2016-05-04T20:13:49Z dlowe: the inverse is (char-code #\a) 2016-05-04T20:14:48Z phoe_krk: I found it fun to get the ANSI escape character as (code-char 27) for example; that char's necessary to fiddle with the terminal and I'm writing a Lisp Game Jam entry with ANSI 80x25 as the graphics engine. 2016-05-04T20:15:24Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T20:16:11Z emaczen: How do I get Drakma to return strings -- it is returning a vector of integers 2016-05-04T20:16:24Z mood: emaczen: It does that based on the reported content-type 2016-05-04T20:16:28Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:17:29Z mood: It looks at *text-content-types* to determine if it should be text 2016-05-04T20:18:15Z emaczen: What value should I add to *text-content-types*? 2016-05-04T20:18:43Z mood: That depends on what datatype you're getting. For example, for JSON you'd add '("application" . "json") 2016-05-04T20:19:31Z warweasle quit (Quit: going home) 2016-05-04T20:20:35Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:21:07Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:21:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:21:53Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:23:46Z emaczen: What about sending parameters via www-url-encoded? 2016-05-04T20:26:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:26:41Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:27:06Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T20:27:09Z oskarth quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-04T20:30:16Z cvoxel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T20:30:44Z Pmurt joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:33:12Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:37:25Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T20:37:33Z algae quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-04T20:42:25Z sebboh: You know the GNU (maybe *nix?) way of doing command line args? --long and -l are the same, --long=foo and -l foo are the same. And -- signifies the end of interpreted options, etc. What lispy CL command line argument handler is most similar to this? Note that a straight port of getopt(3) isn't what I'm looking for... 2016-05-04T20:42:31Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-04T20:42:55Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:43:24Z sebboh: I mean, I don't want it to be like getopt programatically, but I do want it to be like getopt from the user's point of view. 2016-05-04T20:43:46Z dlowe: sebboh: I wrote my own. https://github.com/dlowe-net/orcabot/blob/master/src/utils.lisp#L313 2016-05-04T20:43:54Z jaerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:44:20Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-04T20:44:29Z mood: I use https://github.com/mrkkrp/unix-opts, but with a macro around it that makes things non-global 2016-05-04T20:45:13Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:45:48Z mood: Actually, I apparently don't. I just call define-opts right before i call get-opts 2016-05-04T20:46:18Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:46:25Z emaczen: Can quicklisp provide more information about systems? 2016-05-04T20:46:46Z Xach: emaczen: It provides only a little bit right now. 2016-05-04T20:46:54Z Xach: emaczen: I'd like to add more in the future. 2016-05-04T20:47:02Z mood: Quickdocs.org helps 2016-05-04T20:47:14Z sebboh: Xach, are you github.com/quicklisp? 2016-05-04T20:47:23Z Xach: sebboh: I am 2016-05-04T20:47:35Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:47:44Z sebboh: I was just reading your discussion re: https://github.com/mrkkrp/unix-opts :) 2016-05-04T20:49:11Z emaczen: Is there any CL software for hosting a sparql endpoint? the only related thing I see with QL is cl-rdfxml 2016-05-04T20:49:21Z emaczen: and it looks like it is only a parser 2016-05-04T20:49:47Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:49:48Z Xach: emaczen: franz might have something 2016-05-04T20:52:18Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T20:52:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:52:58Z sebboh: Xach, I frequently use QL as as discovery service, via web searches with a site:quicklisp.org predicate and some keywords related to whatever library/etc I'd like to find. But links back to a given system's source repo are very rare on quicklisp.org, so I usually then do another search for + common lisp 2016-05-04T20:53:30Z sebboh: some systems don't have very searchable names. There's one called simply "prove". 2016-05-04T20:53:32Z Xach: sebboh: I want to collect project source info and make it easy to query from within quicklisp. 2016-05-04T20:53:52Z Xach: so it could answer "where did 'prove' come from, and when?" 2016-05-04T20:53:53Z sebboh: Collect? I thought it was necessary for inclusion in QL. 2016-05-04T20:54:14Z Xach: sebboh: Yes - I want to collect more 2016-05-04T20:54:40Z emaczen: Xach: What is the free express edition of Allegro CL? 2016-05-04T20:54:54Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:54:56Z emaczen: Or can someone talk about what it includes and what "catches" there are? 2016-05-04T20:55:06Z Bike: phoe_krk: i meant that sbcl backquote forms were full of structs, not necessarily just ones with `, which are rare anyway 2016-05-04T20:55:12Z Xach: emaczen: It is a version of Allegro CL that does not cost anything. I think there may be a webpage at franz describing it more fully. 2016-05-04T20:55:37Z Xach: emaczen: If you want to get a lot of useful info, you can email franz. But that is more fair if you might consider becoming a customer, rather than just a user of their no-cost software. 2016-05-04T20:56:17Z reb: sebboh: If you can live with only long names for arguments, then https://github.com/brown/lisp-gflags might be interesting. 2016-05-04T20:56:42Z joshe joined #lisp 2016-05-04T20:57:11Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T20:58:00Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-04T20:58:01Z emaczen: Can anyone here talk about AllegroGraph? 2016-05-04T20:58:12Z preferslisp quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T20:58:29Z sebboh: reb, mood, and dlowe: Thanks! And you too Xach. :) 2016-05-04T20:58:49Z Xach: emaczen: Not likely. But franz can talk about it very much. 2016-05-04T20:59:49Z emaczen: I guess I'll download it and see what happens then... 2016-05-04T21:01:29Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:04:34Z _vaitel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-04T21:05:07Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:05:52Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:06:08Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:06:14Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:06:18Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-04T21:10:18Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:10:50Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:11:57Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:13:07Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:14:02Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:20:01Z gargaml quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-04T21:23:09Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:28:51Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:29:54Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:31:20Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:34:27Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:36:46Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:38:52Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:40:33Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-04T21:43:12Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:47:43Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-04T21:58:06Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-04T21:59:30Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-04T22:00:56Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T22:01:21Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-04T22:02:06Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-04T22:05:30Z brpocock: emaczen: ah, I almost can talk about the AllegroGraph. 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Anyone here comfortable with that package? 2016-05-05T02:07:58Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-05T02:08:59Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T02:11:38Z pseudo-sue: Here's my login function, btw. http://sprunge.us/NBSh The trouble is that it doesn't seem to *actually* keep me logged in, even when I pass the same (global) cookie jar in another request. To make it worse, I swear, it worked once or twice, but then crapped out again, and if there was some small unnoticed change responsible, I'm clueless as to what it was. 2016-05-05T02:12:30Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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It has a github issue which links to a few others. 2016-05-05T02:53:57Z Guthur: oh nice, cheers 2016-05-05T02:54:19Z pillton: Found it: https://github.com/phoe-krk/pseudonyms 2016-05-05T02:59:36Z MetaHertz__ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:00:29Z pillton: We should exert the energy and write a CDR that introduces a hook in to the reader. 2016-05-05T03:02:05Z Guthur: pseudonyms is using a reader macro 2016-05-05T03:02:41Z Bike: i'm not actually sure what that hook would be, other than like, allowing the whole reader to be replaced, practically. 2016-05-05T03:02:45Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T03:03:13Z pillton: *reader-intern-function* 2016-05-05T03:03:48Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:03:51Z ryan_vw` is now known as ryan_vw 2016-05-05T03:05:16Z Bike: i guess that would be something. 2016-05-05T03:05:27Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-05T03:06:00Z pillton: Or something even simpler which resolves package names to packages. 2016-05-05T03:06:39Z pillton: I think |3b| had thought it through. 2016-05-05T03:06:50Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-05T03:07:14Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:07:19Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T03:09:52Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T03:10:08Z Guest62487 quit (Quit: cyphase.com) 2016-05-05T03:10:34Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:11:25Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:13:09Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:14:35Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T03:15:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:15:29Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:19:04Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T03:22:56Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-05T03:26:33Z Cxcf joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:26:43Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T03:27:39Z tiago quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T03:28:12Z floor13 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:31:42Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:33:12Z tiago joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:36:45Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T03:45:00Z egg_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:45:18Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-05T03:48:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:00:36Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:02:40Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:07:02Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:11:51Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:12:30Z omshantiom joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:12:36Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:12:56Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T04:13:12Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:15:09Z egg_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:19:17Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:19:47Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:20:14Z Cxcf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:23:36Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:27:50Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:28:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T04:29:25Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-05T04:29:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:31:56Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:32:00Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:34:36Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:37:45Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T04:43:40Z fouric-afk is now known as fourc 2016-05-05T04:43:44Z fourc is now known as fouric 2016-05-05T04:44:01Z egg_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:47:02Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:47:40Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:48:04Z Cxcf` joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:48:15Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:49:31Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T04:55:22Z Petit_Dejeuner: Hm, anyone running lisp on gentoo? 2016-05-05T04:55:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: It's been a pain emerging lisp. The SBCL version provided has an ASDF too outdated for drakma. 2016-05-05T04:56:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: CLISP can't load it either, for some other reason I can't tell, and while trying to get config info setup so I can try clozure, I started to wonder if maybe I should just try and fix sbcl or install from source. 2016-05-05T04:56:58Z Bike: i thought gentoo was all about building it yourself. 2016-05-05T04:57:18Z Bike: the stable version is pretty old, ouch 2016-05-05T04:57:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: You can customize anything you want, but that doesn't mean do everything by hand. 2016-05-05T04:57:58Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-05T04:58:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess I'll just install from source then. I can't be bothered with overlays. 2016-05-05T04:58:27Z Petit_Dejeuner: At least the code I was writing is almost done now. 2016-05-05T04:59:35Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T04:59:37Z Amaan left #lisp 2016-05-05T05:08:17Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:09:07Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:09:53Z floor13 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:11:04Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:11:04Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-05T05:11:22Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:11:29Z asc232 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T05:13:37Z Cxcf` left #lisp 2016-05-05T05:15:38Z loke: Petit_Dejeuner: Why don't you just compile SBCL from source? It's easy. 2016-05-05T05:17:30Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:18:11Z vsync joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:19:09Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:19:47Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:20:00Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:21:16Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:21:29Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:21:58Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T05:23:27Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:25:51Z vsync quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:26:27Z vsync joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:27:03Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:28:15Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:29:16Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:29:28Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:30:15Z katco joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:31:18Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:32:28Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:34:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:34:35Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:37:44Z paines joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:37:48Z paines: hi 2016-05-05T05:39:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:40:16Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:40:44Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:40:44Z omshantiom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:45:43Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:46:46Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:46:49Z nalik89 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-05T05:47:02Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:47:43Z nalik89 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-05T05:47:57Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:48:04Z nalik891 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-05T05:48:50Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:51:32Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-05T05:52:29Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:53:15Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T05:54:51Z katco joined #lisp 2016-05-05T05:59:55Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T06:08:44Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T06:09:51Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T06:10:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:11:45Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:12:57Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T06:20:25Z Kazlock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T06:21:59Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:23:45Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:24:11Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-05T06:24:11Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-05T06:28:42Z xificurC joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:30:37Z OrangeShark_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-05T06:36:39Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T06:37:34Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:40:27Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:41:03Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T06:45:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:51:42Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T06:57:32Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:01:09Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T07:04:41Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:04:42Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:06:46Z Ilo_Wolf joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:13:42Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T07:14:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: loke: Not that easy when building requires an existing lisp and all the available binaries are bad. :( 2016-05-05T07:15:39Z Bike: you mean all the binaries provided by gentoo? 2016-05-05T07:16:47Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:17:32Z jackdaniel: Petit_Dejeuner: can't you download prebuilt sbcl and build the new one with it? 2016-05-05T07:17:50Z jackdaniel: eventually you could build clisp (it builds from gcc) and bootstrap sbcl from it 2016-05-05T07:17:59Z jackdaniel: but the former approach sounds much better imo 2016-05-05T07:22:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:23:55Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-05T07:25:36Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:27:55Z Justinus joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:36:07Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T07:41:48Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T07:43:53Z Bike quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T07:44:50Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:49:53Z Valjan joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:49:58Z rumbler31_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:51:51Z tombgi joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:51:55Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T07:52:03Z rumbler31_ is now known as rumbler31 2016-05-05T07:55:21Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T07:57:07Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-05T07:57:33Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T07:59:52Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:06:11Z Oladon1 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:06:47Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-05-05T08:08:01Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:08:27Z Oladon quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:08:32Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:09:43Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:13:03Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:15:03Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:22:31Z paines: hey guys. sorry for my ignorance. when evaluting code with emacs+geiser+guile, and my code would print messages, which I see if I started the app from console,where do I see those messages in emacs. ? it is not in the guile repl nor in *Messages*. 2016-05-05T08:22:56Z paines: oops 2016-05-05T08:22:58Z paines: wrong channel 2016-05-05T08:23:00Z paines: :) 2016-05-05T08:25:06Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:27:57Z paines: hey guys. sorry for my ignorance. when evaluting code with emacs+geiser+guile, and my code would print messages, which I see if I started the app from console,where do I see those messages in emacs. ? it is not in the guile repl nor in *Messages*. 2016-05-05T08:28:17Z paines: damn it, I am sorry 2016-05-05T08:28:19Z jackdaniel: wrong channel again 2016-05-05T08:28:20Z jackdaniel: ;) 2016-05-05T08:29:46Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T08:31:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:31:23Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-05T08:31:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:31:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:34:02Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:38:07Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:38:10Z tombgi quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-05T08:39:30Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T08:39:30Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:40:03Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:40:11Z br0kenman joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:41:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:42:03Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-05T08:43:39Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:44:00Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-05T08:47:24Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T08:53:38Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T08:54:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:58:49Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T08:58:55Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T08:58:56Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:02:10Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-05T09:02:10Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T09:03:11Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:08:27Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T09:12:55Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:15:50Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:21:34Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:21:54Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:22:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:25:57Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:27:39Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:28:35Z Valjan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:32:23Z DmHertz__ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:33:26Z Guthur joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:35:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:35:52Z MetaHertz__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:35:57Z tos-1 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T09:39:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T09:40:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T09:40:24Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Do I remember right that it didn't improve speed much afterall, or I've confused it with something else? 2016-05-05T12:29:12Z drmeister: I think it does but not that much within Clasp. 2016-05-05T12:29:55Z drmeister: It drops the memory consed by the cclasp compiler by more than half. 2016-05-05T12:32:16Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-05T12:33:20Z kdas_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:35:59Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:39:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:39:45Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:40:18Z kdas_ is now known as kushal 2016-05-05T12:40:26Z kushal quit (Changing host) 2016-05-05T12:40:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:40:55Z erbse joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:41:06Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T12:43:06Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:44:57Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T12:51:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T12:51:42Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:52:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:52:10Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-05-05T12:52:41Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T12:52:55Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:52:56Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T12:57:43Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T13:02:18Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-05T13:04:03Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:04:20Z varjag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T13:07:09Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:08:56Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:09:15Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:09:21Z algae joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:10:03Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T13:11:51Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:12:05Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T13:12:16Z marvi left #lisp 2016-05-05T13:13:31Z holly quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T13:15:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T13:15:27Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:19:04Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:19:41Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:20:37Z xificurC quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-05T13:21:22Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:21:54Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T13:22:27Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T13:22:42Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-05T13:25:29Z Colleen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T13:25:29Z isoraqathedh quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T13:30:40Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2016-05-05T15:23:10Z vsync_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:23:42Z ramus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:23:43Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:23:44Z dongz quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:24:27Z dongz joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:24:31Z ramus joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:25:24Z __main__ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:27:08Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:27:19Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2016-05-05T15:27:29Z fantazo joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:30:22Z xristos joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:30:23Z beach: moore33: I saw your email, but now I am on my dinky laptop, being a tourist, and working on my ELS slides, so I may not do a very deep reading before ELS is over. 2016-05-05T15:30:46Z xristos is now known as Guest25363 2016-05-05T15:32:23Z Guest25363 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-05T15:32:49Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:34:35Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-05T15:34:45Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T15:36:31Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:37:53Z xristos` joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:38:17Z xristos` is now known as xristos 2016-05-05T15:38:22Z xristos quit (Changing host) 2016-05-05T15:38:22Z xristos joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:41:31Z moore33: beach: No problem! I know you are busy. 2016-05-05T15:41:51Z moore33: beach: I'm continuing to edit that page. 2016-05-05T15:41:55Z beach: OK. 2016-05-05T15:42:30Z beach: I have definitely put enough work into those papers, so I'll be happy to do something else, once my talks have been delivered. 2016-05-05T15:43:17Z drewc joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:45:19Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:46:58Z moore33: beach: Probably best to look at it with a big mug of Polish beer. 2016-05-05T15:47:15Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:47:55Z beach: I'll keep that in mind. :) 2016-05-05T15:49:24Z rme: I can hardly believe that the time for the ELS has come already. I'm leaving tomorrow afternoon; I suppose I'm ready. 2016-05-05T15:50:35Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:51:09Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:51:17Z beach: This is a good time to be ready for it, yes. 2016-05-05T15:51:29Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T15:51:53Z karbak joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:52:39Z rme: I'm just an attendee, so getting ready is not that tough. Fortunately, I don't have to stress over slides. 2016-05-05T15:54:20Z beach: Good. I didn't mean to imply that I stress over the slides. It is just that I have put enough work into the papers, and I am ready for doing some coding again. 2016-05-05T15:56:13Z beach: Anyway, 60 participants! I think that's a decent number. 2016-05-05T15:58:26Z Guthur quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T15:58:39Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T15:59:49Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T16:00:00Z badkins__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T16:00:37Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:00:49Z moore33: beach: I think that's more than we had in Bordeaux in 2008. 2016-05-05T16:03:42Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T16:04:26Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T16:05:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:05:08Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-05T16:05:08Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:05:13Z beach: I think that's true. But less than in London last year, as I recall. 2016-05-05T16:05:28Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:05:44Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T16:05:55Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:09:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:10:08Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:12:17Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:12:22Z fe[nl]ix: I couln't sign up this year because next week I'll be in Dublin for work :( 2016-05-05T16:13:37Z beach: Oh, so you won't be there? Sorry to hear that. 2016-05-05T16:15:21Z fe[nl]ix: yeah 2016-05-05T16:15:53Z fe[nl]ix: next year I do plan to come, though, officially 2016-05-05T16:16:11Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T16:16:22Z beach: Good. No matter where it is going to be held? :) 2016-05-05T16:16:22Z fe[nl]ix: I'll present some SBCL work I'm doing 2016-05-05T16:16:31Z beach: Sounds great! 2016-05-05T16:16:43Z fe[nl]ix: it will still be in Europe, that's good enough 2016-05-05T16:22:01Z beach: I guess that's true. There are very few places in Europe I would not consider going to. 2016-05-05T16:22:38Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:26:37Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-05T16:27:45Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:28:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:28:43Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-05T16:28:43Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-05T16:29:56Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I'll decide on Monday morning. 2016-05-05T17:40:38Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T17:40:46Z sebboh: Stupid question that I'm having trouble searching the web for: how do I read a whole file into a string, rather than building a string via (read-line ...) 2016-05-05T17:40:47Z sebboh: ? 2016-05-05T17:41:05Z jackdaniel: sebboh: alexandria has an exact utility for that 2016-05-05T17:41:09Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T17:41:10Z sebboh: thanks 2016-05-05T17:41:19Z jackdaniel: if it hadn't, you'd have to write your own function, but it wouldn't be hard 2016-05-05T17:41:21Z phoe_krk: Also, dlowe, about mono, ryoshu just ported .NET framework to NetBSD. 2016-05-05T17:41:25Z phoe_krk: You might want to check it out. 2016-05-05T17:43:04Z sebboh: jackdaniel: well I can trivially loop through lines or chars, and since my input file is small, it wouldn't matter. I'm just thinking "there must be an existing read-until-eof function out there"... Like, in CLHS, I'd expect... But I'll look up this alexandria function. 2016-05-05T17:43:44Z jackdaniel: sebboh: many utilities which are considered "it should be there, but it isn't" are put in alexandria 2016-05-05T17:43:50Z jackdaniel: it's very conservative utility pack 2016-05-05T17:44:52Z sebboh: are git repos on common-lisp.net browsable via a browser? 2016-05-05T17:45:07Z jackdaniel: sebboh: yes 2016-05-05T17:45:14Z jackdaniel: gitlab.common-lisp.net 2016-05-05T17:45:21Z sebboh: oh, perfect 2016-05-05T17:48:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T17:49:12Z sebboh: jackdaniel: ok, (defun read-file-into-string ...) uses (read-stream-content-into-string ...) [also from alexandria] which loops over (read-sequence ...). So, yes, their strategy is the same I would have used, but it is more flexible and probably faster than what I would have come up with. :) Thanks! 2016-05-05T17:49:34Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T17:49:52Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-05T17:50:13Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T17:51:53Z jackdaniel: np, hf :) 2016-05-05T17:53:37Z sebboh: Dots are valid in symbol names. It boggles the mind how much I can do without having learned the basics. 2016-05-05T17:53:41Z phoe_krk: sebboh: it's a good common practice to just use ALEXANDRIA in your project from the very beginning. It's a small, sturdy, stable library that ties very well into "what should have been included" in the CL standard. Like, for example, FLATTEN that I often use. 2016-05-05T17:54:01Z phoe_krk: sebboh: want to hear the best thing? |.| is a valid symbol name. 2016-05-05T17:54:32Z sebboh: For some value of "best" ;) 2016-05-05T17:54:52Z phoe_krk: So is | . |. So you can (cons | . | | . |) and get (| . | . | . |) in result. 2016-05-05T17:55:02Z phoe_krk: It's as useless as it can be. But looks pretty cool. 2016-05-05T17:55:48Z sebboh: Is | some macro character or something? When I type one, paredit breaks... 2016-05-05T17:56:22Z phoe_krk: Yes, it is. 2016-05-05T17:56:34Z phoe_krk: ||s are for denoting symbol names. 2016-05-05T17:56:50Z phoe_krk: Basically, |SOME-SYMBOL| is printed as SOME-SYMBOL by Lisp. 2016-05-05T17:57:05Z phoe_krk: Because they're equivalent, with the standard print case being :UPCASE. 2016-05-05T17:57:21Z phoe_krk: But |some-symbol| is |some-symbol|. 2016-05-05T17:57:31Z mood: Note that something like ca| |ke is also a valid symbol 2016-05-05T17:57:38Z mood: printed as |ca ke| 2016-05-05T17:57:47Z phoe_krk: Yes. And this way you can also put spaces in symbol names, mix upper- and lower-case stuff and do other amusing things. 2016-05-05T17:58:18Z mood: Also, you can type ca\ ke for the same effect, though you then have to put a \ before every "illegal" character 2016-05-05T17:58:23Z phoe_krk: 'a||||||||||||||||b ;=> AB 2016-05-05T17:58:25Z phoe_krk: This, too. 2016-05-05T17:58:30Z sebboh: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Mast_9.htm <-- no mention of | by itself, only when used as #| or in a format string. 2016-05-05T17:59:01Z sebboh: Sounds like | is used as a quote mark for symbol names. 2016-05-05T17:59:08Z phoe_krk: Yes, in a way, it is. 2016-05-05T18:00:56Z sebboh: Wait, I can force case sensitivity with |fOO| ?? 2016-05-05T18:01:01Z phoe_krk: So, God damn it. I won't be able to focus on one of my lightning talks too much. 2016-05-05T18:01:04Z rpg: sebboh: 2016-05-05T18:01:04Z rpg: yes 2016-05-05T18:01:10Z phoe_krk: I'll just let it stay as it is right now; it's good enough. 2016-05-05T18:02:00Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:03:18Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:04:22Z jathd: Wait, why doesn't alexandria just READ-SEQUENCE the whole thing in one go 2016-05-05T18:04:23Z jathd: when it comes from a file? 2016-05-05T18:05:38Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:05:49Z sebboh: jathd I'm going to push the code in io.lisp from alexandria out of my mind and guess: because files might be mang GB in size? 2016-05-05T18:07:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:07:13Z jathd: If you're reading the whole thing into a string anyway, I don't see the point in allocating many tiny strings on the way; you're gonna allocate a GB-sized string one way or another. 2016-05-05T18:07:17Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-05T18:07:36Z phoe_krk: A GB-sized string/array doesn't sound like a good idea. 2016-05-05T18:08:34Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:09:02Z jackdaniel: jathd: file isn't necessarily a file 2016-05-05T18:09:14Z jackdaniel: alexandria reads from it, checks how much it has read 2016-05-05T18:09:14Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:09:21Z jackdaniel: and if it's not enough, then it reads more 2016-05-05T18:09:31Z sebboh: Now, looking at io.lisp, I think it can't read a file larger than 4096 bytes unless you specify a larger number via the optional argument. My interpretation can't be right, I must be missing something that is right in front of me. 2016-05-05T18:09:32Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:09:34Z jathd: jackdaniel: you mean that it could be a pipe or something? 2016-05-05T18:09:39Z jackdaniel: jathd: yes 2016-05-05T18:09:47Z jathd: Right, didn't think of that 2016-05-05T18:10:02Z sebboh: jathd, or /dev/urandom for example which does not have an end. 2016-05-05T18:10:35Z jathd: sebboh: well in that case, it's gonna fill your heap trying to read it into a string anyway. 2016-05-05T18:10:53Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-05T18:11:05Z jathd: Now I'm wondering what FILE-LENGTH returns on a pipe... 2016-05-05T18:11:48Z i44 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-05T18:12:18Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:12:35Z phoe_krk: clhs file-length 2016-05-05T18:12:35Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_l.htm 2016-05-05T18:12:36Z sebboh: (with-open-file ( s "/dev/urandom" ) (file-length s)) ==> 0 2016-05-05T18:13:17Z mood: sebboh: The buffer size is only the maximum number of bytes read at once. The function will always read in the entire file 2016-05-05T18:13:25Z sebboh: Note that I don't think /dev/urandom is actually a "pipe". 2016-05-05T18:13:44Z mood: s/bytes/characters 2016-05-05T18:14:45Z jathd: phoe_krk: sure, I'm just wondering if it actually returns nil in real implementations 2016-05-05T18:14:57Z sebboh: mood: I believe you, but I guess I don't know how to read this code: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria/blob/master/io.lisp#L62 Looks like it runs until.. oh, I got it. It runs until it gets less bytes back than it takes to fill the buffer. Nvm, got it. 2016-05-05T18:14:58Z sebboh: :) 2016-05-05T18:15:07Z mood: :) 2016-05-05T18:15:23Z phoe_krk: Let me ask around here. 2016-05-05T18:15:25Z jathd: Just tried it with ccl, it hangs until someting is written to the pipe, and then signals an error saying the stream is not a file-stream. 2016-05-05T18:15:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:15:43Z phoe_krk: I have a question about Common Lisp. What, in the Common Lisp language, is worthy of a good WTF? 2016-05-05T18:16:09Z sebboh: jathd, interesting! Does it think a "named pipe" is a file-stream? 2016-05-05T18:16:23Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:16:29Z sebboh: phoe_krk, the |...| reader macro. 2016-05-05T18:16:31Z jathd: I'm talking about a named pipe above. 2016-05-05T18:16:37Z sebboh: jathd, ok. 2016-05-05T18:16:45Z phoe_krk: sebboh: ... reader macro? 2016-05-05T18:16:46Z phoe_krk: clhs ... 2016-05-05T18:16:46Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for .... 2016-05-05T18:16:49Z rme: I typed (setq) once and was puzzled by the result for a few minutes. 2016-05-05T18:16:57Z sebboh: clhs | 2016-05-05T18:16:57Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for |. 2016-05-05T18:17:29Z phoe_krk: rme: (setq) seems to do completely nothing. Which is something I'd supposed it would do, short of throwing an error. 2016-05-05T18:17:51Z phoe_krk: sebboh: oh, you mean, escaping symbols with the || notation? 2016-05-05T18:18:00Z sebboh: phoe_krk: yep 2016-05-05T18:18:02Z phoe_krk: I'd rather say it's a feature, not a fully-fledged WTF. 2016-05-05T18:18:23Z phoe_krk: I already have a pair of things I'll be happy to present if my lightning talk on ELS passes, but I'm still looking for more. 2016-05-05T18:18:29Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:18:51Z jathd: Allegro is more sensible (IMO), it returns NIL for the FILE-LENGTH of a named pipe. 2016-05-05T18:19:15Z jathd: Could someone try SBCL for me? 2016-05-05T18:19:39Z phoe_krk: Trying now. 2016-05-05T18:19:44Z phoe_krk: Wait. 2016-05-05T18:19:48Z phoe_krk: I don't know how to create a pipe. 2016-05-05T18:19:57Z jathd: mkfifo 2016-05-05T18:20:27Z jathd: (Just google'd it myself minutes ago :) 2016-05-05T18:20:28Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:21:54Z phoe_krk: Hangs until input. 2016-05-05T18:21:58Z phoe_krk: Then, returns 0. 2016-05-05T18:22:10Z phoe_krk: SBCL on debian sid x64. 2016-05-05T18:22:18Z jathd: Thanks 2016-05-05T18:22:31Z jathd: I'm not sure which of ccl or sbcl is weirder on this... 2016-05-05T18:23:20Z jathd: Hanging until input should probably be considered a bug, right? 2016-05-05T18:23:23Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:23:42Z sauvin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T18:26:12Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:26:42Z phoe_krk: No idea. 2016-05-05T18:26:50Z phoe_krk: I doubt the standard says anything about FIFOs. 2016-05-05T18:27:09Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:28:21Z mood: It does however say that NIL is the appropriate return value when the length can't be determined, which is (always?) the case with a FIFO 2016-05-05T18:28:28Z jathd: No, but it says that the function either returns the length, returns nil, or signals an error if the argument is not a file-stream. 2016-05-05T18:28:58Z drewc: sebboh: Why do you not like that syntax? I personally like it, especially for '#:|| as a string or a |MixedCase| symbol. 2016-05-05T18:29:03Z jathd: And anyway, having the function sometimes hang just makes it completely unusable. 2016-05-05T18:29:36Z jackdaniel: you've hit an interesting cornerstone 2016-05-05T18:29:45Z jackdaniel: I've added it as an issue to ecl bugtracker 2016-05-05T18:29:53Z jackdaniel: because it hangs as well 2016-05-05T18:31:01Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:32:51Z jathd: It looks like ACL examines the type of file it's dealing with: it seems to return NIL on named pipes and device files, including /dev/null, whereas SBCL and CCL return 0 for /dev/null. 2016-05-05T18:33:27Z phoe_krk: jathd: other implementations can learn from it, then. 2016-05-05T18:35:28Z jathd: Oh, CCL actually hangs on the call to OPEN, not FILE-LENGTH. That's even worse. 2016-05-05T18:36:18Z jathd: And OPEN returning a stream that is not a file-stream is definitely non-conforming. Ugh. 2016-05-05T18:38:29Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:44:11Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:46:51Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:47:56Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-05T18:48:22Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T18:49:07Z grantv joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:49:20Z grantv quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-05T18:49:48Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T18:50:13Z grantv joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:52:16Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-05T18:55:48Z MrMC left #lisp 2016-05-05T19:02:59Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2016-05-05T19:04:52Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:05:08Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:06:31Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:06:48Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:06:55Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:08:27Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:09:09Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:13:13Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:14:12Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:16:52Z mydog joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:19:38Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:19:38Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-05T19:19:51Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:20:58Z sebboh: drewc, I don't dislike it. After I discovered it, I created a symbol named (+ 1 1) and had a little mini geektrip about this previously overlooked dimension in the CL landscape. So I brought it up when asked to name a "WTF moment". :) 2016-05-05T19:21:52Z sebboh: ..And by "I discovered it" I mean when phoe_krk described it, some hours ago, right here. ;) 2016-05-05T19:22:10Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:22:16Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T19:24:27Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:25:08Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:26:56Z sebboh: I seem to be having trouble naming a symbol foo|bar ... (or |foo|bar| if you read it that way.) I tried typing this into the repl: '|foo\|bar|, but that yields |foo\|bar|. (Which I read as foo\|bar, right? The | wrappers aren't really there, my repl is just rendering them, right? 2016-05-05T19:27:07Z sebboh: ) 2016-05-05T19:29:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:29:33Z reb: (symbol-name '|foo\|bar|) 2016-05-05T19:30:12Z phoe_krk: sebboh: no, it's not foo\|bar. It's foo|bar. 2016-05-05T19:30:54Z phoe_krk: Try doing (read-line), typing "foo|bar" and hitting enter. Then try (intern *). 2016-05-05T19:31:05Z phoe_krk: It should print out as |foo\|bar|. 2016-05-05T19:34:19Z JuanitoJons joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:36:22Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T19:37:16Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:37:30Z sebboh: Is ee 2016-05-05T19:37:37Z sebboh: I see. 2016-05-05T19:38:32Z JuanitoJons: Hello, I have a question, How can calculate the value of sbcl dynamic-space-size 2016-05-05T19:39:13Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:40:19Z mood: JuanitoJons: (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size) works 2016-05-05T19:40:57Z JuanitoJons: yes, but I have: Heap exhausted during garbage collection: 48 bytes available, 80 requested. 2016-05-05T19:41:18Z JuanitoJons: that happens when you use more memory than --dynamic-space-size requests. 2016-05-05T19:41:19Z sebboh: Who has a function to remove whitespace from a string unless it is inside quotes? ..For my purposes, only double quotes matter. Hm, there might be a regex for this, then I could just use cl-ppcre, eh? 2016-05-05T19:44:15Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-05T19:44:22Z reb: sebboh: Try writing the function yourself. Using a regular expression is not the right approach. Just loop over the characters of the string and use a state variable to keep track of whether or not the current position is inside double quotes. 2016-05-05T19:44:29Z phoe_krk: Regex sounds somewhat sane. 2016-05-05T19:44:34Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:44:42Z phoe_krk: Hum. 2016-05-05T19:44:46Z phoe_krk: You could write a loop. 2016-05-05T19:46:59Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-05T19:47:21Z sebboh: reb well sure. falg = false; for each char in string, get char, if char eq " set flag = !flag, if (flag OR char-not-whitespace) then write char. 2016-05-05T19:47:46Z sebboh: Or something like that. 2016-05-05T19:48:31Z phoe_krk: (loop :with results := nil :with eat-whitespace := false :for character :across string :do (cond ((eql char #\") (setf eat-whitespace (not eat-whitespace))) adkljfhdslkfjldskfj 2016-05-05T19:48:34Z phoe_krk: I totally can 2016-05-05T19:48:39Z phoe_krk: 't write loops now. Too feverish. 2016-05-05T19:49:20Z Xach: I like to use LABELS for that, with each state being a different function that is called with the next input. 2016-05-05T19:51:11Z phoe_krk: Xach: yes, but writing (semi)complicated iterations in a single LOOP form is a form of art and competitiveness that some people like to indulge in. 2016-05-05T19:51:11Z sebboh: Thing is I'm way better at regex than lisp. ;P https://regex101.com/r/vZ1jN9/1 (I mean, some googling was used, but still, this is DONE.) 2016-05-05T19:51:13Z _death: welp, I've some good news and some bad news. the bad news is that secure-random's results are horribly biased.. (and it needs openssl, yuck).. the good news is that I have a new lib, https://github.com/death/srandom .. 2016-05-05T19:53:03Z sebboh: actually it's not done because I need \t \r \n too.. let's see.. 2016-05-05T19:53:57Z karbak quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-05T19:54:29Z sebboh: https://regex101.com/r/vZ1jN9/2 done. 2016-05-05T19:55:43Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T19:57:18Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:00:20Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T20:00:41Z Xach: sebboh: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315385 has a state machine in labels 2016-05-05T20:03:27Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:12:24Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:12:49Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:15:11Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:15:29Z sebboh: The paren highlight on paste.lisp.org is better than what I have in my emacs. What is it called and does an emacs implementation exist? ...With one small difference: follow the point, not the mouse cursor. 2016-05-05T20:15:44Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:15:59Z mood: sebboh: I use highlight-parentheses-mode, which does basically that 2016-05-05T20:16:20Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-05T20:16:37Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:16:42Z mood: sebboh: https://github.com/tsdh/highlight-parentheses.el 2016-05-05T20:16:46Z phoe_krk: rainbow-delimiters 2016-05-05T20:16:49Z phoe_krk: ftw <3 2016-05-05T20:19:14Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:19:58Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:20:59Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:21:19Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-05T20:22:07Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T20:23:13Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:23:20Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-05T20:28:00Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:28:24Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:28:47Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:29:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: yes, the gentoo bianries 2016-05-05T20:29:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: jackdaniel: you were right, installing the binary and building from it worked fine 2016-05-05T20:33:07Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:35:09Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:35:16Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:40:06Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:40:18Z mydog quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-05T20:46:52Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:47:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T20:47:07Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:47:27Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:47:33Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:50:10Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Restart requested by BearPerson: Going to the moon, be back soon, when I'm back, I'll have amazing new hacks!) 2016-05-05T20:50:39Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-05T20:52:08Z johs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T20:52:19Z sword`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:52:55Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T20:58:00Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:02:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:02:37Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T21:03:26Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:03:44Z modula joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:03:54Z defaultxr quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-05T21:03:56Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2016-05-05T21:03:57Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:04:24Z sswords joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:05:54Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-05T21:06:30Z sswords: Anyone know the way to set stack size in a new (bordeaux) thread? (in CCL in particular)? 2016-05-05T21:06:30Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:07:20Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:09:25Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:09:55Z wismas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T21:11:23Z JuanitoJons quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-05T21:12:10Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:13:32Z mety joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:14:22Z crime quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:19:08Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:20:20Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:21:07Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:21:10Z rme: I don't know how Bordeaux threads does it. CCL's make-process and process-run-function accept keyword arguments that let you specify the size of the thread stacks. 2016-05-05T21:23:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:24:04Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:26:51Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-05T21:28:09Z sswords: thanks @rme, will hack around it. There's no equivalent special variable that could be bound around the call of bt:make-thread, is there? 2016-05-05T21:29:49Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:30:02Z mety quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-05T21:30:13Z rme: There are, but they're not exported (not sure if that's an oversight or not). M-. on ccl:make-process to see them. ccl::*default-control-stack-size*, etc. 2016-05-05T21:30:36Z sswords: ah, ok, thanks! 2016-05-05T21:31:09Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-05T21:31:41Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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So maybe hes here? or someone can tell me his nickname and/or where to find him? 2016-05-06T00:37:05Z Xach: He replies to email. 2016-05-06T00:37:09Z Xach: He does not use IRC 2016-05-06T00:37:21Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T00:38:13Z Xach: Not in this channel, anyway 2016-05-06T00:38:22Z M4GNV5: woah actually successfull. Which one of his thousands of email addresses should i sent my question to? :) 2016-05-06T00:38:35Z pjb: H4ns: you can communicate with him on clisp-devel@sourceforge.net, for clisp questions. 2016-05-06T00:38:51Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T00:38:59Z Xach: I don't know. 2016-05-06T00:39:08Z pjb: or: Bruno Haible 2016-05-06T00:39:12Z Xach: If I wanted to know, I'd check clisp-list for his most recent message. 2016-05-06T00:39:29Z M4GNV5: actually my question is about one of his (older) projects called ffcall, but ill try the latter one i guess 2016-05-06T00:39:55Z pjb: asking about ffcall on clisp-devel would probably do. 2016-05-06T00:40:03Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T00:40:26Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:40:31Z dougk_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T00:42:19Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:43:48Z jsgrant quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T00:44:17Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:44:28Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-06T00:44:30Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:45:23Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T00:45:51Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2016-05-06T00:45:53Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:46:16Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T00:46:39Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:48:28Z lpaste quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T00:49:28Z nopf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T00:49:51Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:49:52Z cpt_nemo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:50:04Z nopf joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:50:56Z cpt_nemo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T00:51:05Z cpt_nemo_ is now known as cpt_nemo 2016-05-06T00:52:06Z lpaste joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:52:42Z replcated quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T00:53:40Z jsgrant quit (Quit: Peace peeps. o/ If you need to reach me, msg me at irc@jsgrant.io.) 2016-05-06T00:54:22Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:54:22Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T00:54:45Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T00:55:05Z rpg is now known as rpg[Away] 2016-05-06T00:56:47Z jsgrant quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T00:57:16Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:01:09Z yang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:07:49Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-06T01:08:21Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T01:08:46Z yang joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:08:53Z yang quit (Changing host) 2016-05-06T01:08:53Z yang joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:08:53Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:11:53Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:12:12Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:12:12Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:15:23Z M4GNV5_ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:17:08Z jsgrant quit (Quit: Peace peeps. o/ If you need to reach me, msg me at irc@jsgrant.io.) 2016-05-06T01:17:22Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:17:24Z jsgrant_ is now known as jsgrant 2016-05-06T01:19:17Z M4GNV5 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:20:39Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:22:55Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:23:15Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:25:40Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:36:35Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:37:33Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:38:08Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:38:08Z FareTower joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:39:29Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:40:06Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T01:40:37Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:43:35Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:43:35Z FareTower quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T01:45:35Z M4GNV5_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T01:47:50Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T01:48:17Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:49:36Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:50:40Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:52:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:55:13Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T01:55:18Z FareTower joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:56:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T01:56:11Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:56:11Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:56:37Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:58:59Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-06T01:59:19Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T01:59:45Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:01:11Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-06T02:02:27Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:03:06Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:06:30Z PuercoPop: Can one rely that calling initialize-instance w/o any initargs would reset the slots to their result of their init-forms? 2016-05-06T02:08:22Z Bike: i don't think you're supposed to call initialize-instance. but if it's allowed that's what i'd expect it to do, I guess. 2016-05-06T02:10:33Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:12:50Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:16:27Z PuercoPop: Bike: I was under that impression as well but unsure from where. The code in question breaks in CCL (the structure slots are initialized to the forms of the initform, works on SBCL) 2016-05-06T02:16:49Z Bike: you're doing this to a structure? 2016-05-06T02:17:06Z Bike: because that would probably not work 2016-05-06T02:18:20Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:18:54Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:19:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T02:20:34Z PuercoPop: I didn't write the code, trying to write an instrumentation for it https://github.com/kingcons/cl-6502/blob/master/src/cpu.lisp#L45 2016-05-06T02:20:47Z PuercoPop: (which CCL's defadvise seems well suited for) 2016-05-06T02:21:17Z Bike: initialize-instance doesn't have to work on structure objects at all 2016-05-06T02:21:26Z Bike: mop initialize-instance 2016-05-06T02:21:26Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for initialize-instance. 2016-05-06T02:21:33Z Bike: yeah nah 2016-05-06T02:23:59Z PuercoPop: clhs talks about newly created instances, so the reset functionally doesn't seem appropriate either 2016-05-06T02:25:21Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T02:25:21Z Bike: it seems like it's only called on the cpu, so you could just write a reset-cpu function, or specialize the existing gf to work. 2016-05-06T02:25:28Z Bike: like, by setfing the slots yoursefl. 2016-05-06T02:25:42Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:27:40Z PuercoPop: yeah 2016-05-06T02:38:58Z jsgrant quit (Quit: Peace peeps. o/ If you need to reach me, msg me at irc@jsgrant.io.) 2016-05-06T02:39:13Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:39:28Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:43:35Z FareTower quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T02:43:39Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:43:48Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T02:44:29Z Fare: (defun f (n &optional (a (ash 1 (max 2 (ceiling (* n 6351109/9148265)))))) (mod (mod (expt a (1+ n)) (- (* a a) a 1)) a)) 2016-05-06T02:44:51Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:45:13Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-06T02:45:15Z Bike: what? 2016-05-06T02:45:23Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-06T02:45:28Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:45:32Z Fare: that's a direct formula for a well-known function. 2016-05-06T02:45:47Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:45:48Z Fare: works better with an optimized expmod, of course. 2016-05-06T02:45:50Z Bike: fibonacci, looks like 2016-05-06T02:45:54Z Fare: yup. 2016-05-06T02:46:45Z Fare: with only basic arithmetic functions, no recursion, yet exact bignum answer. 2016-05-06T02:47:27Z MetaHertz__ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:47:35Z Fare: using modular exponentiation instead of matrix exponentiation. 2016-05-06T02:48:08Z Bike: plus ceiling. what a weird function. 2016-05-06T02:48:17Z Fare: it's just a rounding 2016-05-06T02:48:18Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:48:30Z Fare: you could probably use round instead. 2016-05-06T02:48:52Z Bike: yeah but as an arithmetic function it's weird, it's not smooth and so on, is all. 2016-05-06T02:49:09Z Fare: well, we're dealing with bignums, not flonums. 2016-05-06T02:49:20Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:49:42Z Fare: if you have infinite flonums, then there is a well-known simpler formula 2016-05-06T02:49:54Z Fare: note that you can manually specify a, e.g. a power of 10. 2016-05-06T02:50:03Z Fare: instead of 2 2016-05-06T02:50:40Z Fare: any number somewhat larger than the answer should do. 2016-05-06T02:52:36Z grantv joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:54:33Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T02:55:30Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-06T02:58:45Z jsgrant quit (Quit: Peace peeps. o/ If you need to reach me, msg me at irc@jsgrant.io.) 2016-05-06T02:59:29Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T02:59:29Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T02:59:59Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T03:03:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T03:06:51Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-06T03:08:09Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T03:08:13Z defaultxr quit (Quit: bbiab) 2016-05-06T03:09:39Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-06T03:10:25Z rpg[Away] quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-06T03:11:10Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-06T03:11:31Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-06T03:14:19Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-06T03:19:20Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-05-06T03:20:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 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2016-05-06T04:17:51Z loke: akkad! 2016-05-06T04:18:00Z loke: beach! 2016-05-06T04:23:02Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T04:27:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T04:27:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:29:45Z drmeister: Hello 2016-05-06T04:35:43Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:35:56Z loke: Hello 2016-05-06T04:39:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:39:21Z otwieracz: halo! 2016-05-06T04:40:17Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:43:42Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:44:41Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:46:06Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T04:47:54Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T04:48:17Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-05-06T04:57:29Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-06T04:58:28Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-06T05:01:28Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:01:52Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T05:03:42Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:03:49Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:03:49Z zacts quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-06T05:04:27Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T05:06:53Z xificurC joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:08:17Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:12:17Z drewc joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:14:24Z asampal joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:14:36Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T05:20:30Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T05:22:55Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-06T05:24:03Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Thanks! 2016-05-06T16:06:39Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:07:02Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:07:42Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:08:01Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:08:22Z sepi: just out of curiosity, why is setting the cwd not a good idea? 2016-05-06T16:09:04Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:10:43Z fe[nl]ix: because it's a global value 2016-05-06T16:10:53Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-06T16:11:53Z sepi: Also, what would be an appropriate place to actually rebind the *default-pathname-defaults*. I'm writing a webapp that has a start and stop function. WOuld it be good to just put it as a toplevel form? 2016-05-06T16:12:06Z fe[nl]ix: if you set it and rely on it retaining that value during the extent of an operation, another thread might do the same thing in parallel and ruin your day 2016-05-06T16:12:34Z sepi: fe[nl]ix: good argument! 2016-05-06T16:13:25Z fe[nl]ix: rebind it around your code 2016-05-06T16:14:33Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:14:41Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-05-06T16:14:41Z minion: beach, memo from drmeister: Yes, I'm still in the US - is there anything you'd like me to pick up for you while I'm here? 2016-05-06T16:15:04Z jacek quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:15:16Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach 2016-05-06T16:16:33Z sepi: fe[nl]ix: (defun resource-path (local-path) (let ((*default-pathname-defaults* (asdf/system:system-source-directory :system))) (merge-pathnames local-path))) ? 2016-05-06T16:17:55Z beach: drmeister: Thanks for the offer, but I don't think there is anything that I need. 2016-05-06T16:20:33Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-06T16:21:34Z fe[nl]ix: sepi: (asdf:system-relative-pathname :system local-path) is enough 2016-05-06T16:22:38Z drmeister: Not a "Make 'murica grate again" baseball cap? 2016-05-06T16:22:55Z drmeister: They are becoming really popular here. 2016-05-06T16:24:06Z moore33: beach: Hey beach. 2016-05-06T16:25:04Z z0d quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:04Z wizzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:04Z zerac quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:04Z ThePhoeron_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:21Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:21Z Meow-J quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:25:38Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:26:13Z coyo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T16:26:37Z reepca` joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:26:46Z warweasle quit (Quit: home) 2016-05-06T16:26:51Z z0d joined #lisp 2016-05-06T16:26:54Z sepi: fe[nl]ix: nice, even shorter :) 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joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:03:45Z dongz: is guile any good 2016-05-06T19:03:57Z random-nick: guile is a scheme 2016-05-06T19:04:14Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:04:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:05:35Z implodingpeanut joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:07:39Z ecraven: and yea, it's good 2016-05-06T19:09:40Z random-nick: except that continuations are quite slow 2016-05-06T19:14:39Z convexfe_ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:15:03Z convexfe_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T19:17:44Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T19:19:42Z implodingpeanut quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-06T19:20:53Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:29:50Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:30:49Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:31:45Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:44:06Z drewc joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:46:25Z l1x_ joined #lisp 2016-05-06T19:47:42Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-06T19:47:47Z l1x_ is now known as l1x 2016-05-06T19:48:35Z schjetne: Let's see how fast I can set up a Lisp environment on a new computer moments before leaving the house for Poland 2016-05-06T19:51:08Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T19:51:46Z schjetne: Quite fast, it seems, thanks to Roswell 2016-05-06T19:52:12Z Nikotiin` is now known as Nikotiini 2016-05-06T19:55:31Z ggole quit 2016-05-06T20:00:10Z safe joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:00:49Z dongz: congrats 2016-05-06T20:04:07Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:04:21Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:05:08Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:05:28Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T20:17:23Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:19:14Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:24:16Z emaczen: How can I reload a particular system 2016-05-06T20:24:47Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:25:32Z prxq: emaczen: you load it again 2016-05-06T20:28:12Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-06T20:30:10Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 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thing easy and you get a intimiate relation with the computer 2016-05-06T21:06:00Z whiteline quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T21:06:15Z akkad quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:06:34Z defaultxr quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:06:58Z f0ff: because well easy rules you get into it easy 2016-05-06T21:07:00Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:07:59Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:08:02Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T21:08:26Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:09:00Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:10:36Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:10:38Z defaultxr quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-06T21:10:53Z f0ff: modern stuff are always made to "fix" a problem with "old" languages.. the known languages are complicated, so the fixes will build on that and make it more complicated 2016-05-06T21:11:01Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:11:39Z vi1 joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:12:58Z text1 joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:13:14Z pjb: f0ff: try #lispcafe instead! 2016-05-06T21:13:17Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:13:52Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:14:07Z akkad joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:14:24Z f0ff: ah :-) 2016-05-06T21:14:29Z wilfredh joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:15:41Z norfumpit joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:16:11Z safe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:16:16Z fredokun joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:18:39Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T21:21:39Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:24:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:24:26Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-06T21:25:45Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:25:54Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-05-06T21:27:32Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:29:14Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-06T21:29:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:33:25Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-06T21:33:47Z TMM 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2016-05-06T22:58:15Z shwkhwn is now known as heddwch 2016-05-06T23:02:44Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T23:04:34Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-06T23:04:35Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-06T23:10:28Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-06T23:10:52Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-06T23:18:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-06T23:20:03Z brpocock quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-06T23:22:47Z tos-1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-06T23:27:15Z phoe_krk: I think we've gained enough momentum to be postable here. 2016-05-06T23:28:19Z phoe_krk: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCymtXMj1M7cKiV9TKLoTtEg - I'm proud to present the works of our local Polish/Cracovian Lisp group, kraklisp. It's all still fairly immature and incomplete, but we're on our way on subtitling this in English. 2016-05-06T23:37:36Z mood: phoe_krk: Great! 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on IEEE semantics for FPN overflow in SBCL? 2016-05-07T03:44:23Z Bike: as far as i understand, it does have ieee semantics, but it always traps. you can mask traps with sb-int:with-float-traps-masked and so on, so you'll get infinities etc., but it's not exported 2016-05-07T03:47:30Z DGASAU: Well... 2016-05-07T03:47:34Z matt__ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T03:48:26Z DGASAU: I mean overflowing to respective infinities (and underflowing to denormalized and zeroes respectively). 2016-05-07T03:48:45Z Bike: yes, that's what i meant. 2016-05-07T03:49:15Z Bike: try, like, (sb-int:with-float-traps-masked (:overflow) (something returning a too-large number)) 2016-05-07T03:49:30Z Bike: you'll get a positive infinity. and so on and so forth 2016-05-07T03:50:31Z DGASAU: (How do I quell style warning?..) 2016-05-07T03:50:52Z Bike: what style warning 2016-05-07T03:51:02Z DGASAU: Ah! It applies to constant folding... 2016-05-07T03:51:11Z DGASAU: So it doesn't matter actually. 2016-05-07T03:52:30Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-07T03:54:12Z DGASAU: Bike: thanks! 2016-05-07T03:54:44Z Bike: np 2016-05-07T03:55:23Z DGASAU: Simulating that with condition handling would be more convoluted. 2016-05-07T03:56:32Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T03:56:48Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T03:56:50Z nalik891 quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-07T03:57:14Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T03:59:07Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-07T03:59:07Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T03:59:27Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:01:42Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:04:01Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T04:05:29Z nalik89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T04:06:24Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:17:56Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:20:08Z matt__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T04:32:34Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:32:38Z dopie joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:32:42Z dopie: Hey all 2016-05-07T04:32:55Z dopie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T04:35:30Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T04:39:45Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:42:01Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T04:44:23Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:50:13Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T04:52:09Z sigpoll joined #lisp 2016-05-07T04:52:24Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T05:09:20Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-07T05:14:13Z brfpocock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T05:16:46Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:16:49Z MrrTrump quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T05:16:53Z metaphysician joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:16:56Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-07T05:22:03Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:23:01Z MrrTrump joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:25:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:26:47Z MrrTrump quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T05:26:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:31:29Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T05:33:14Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:48:23Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T05:49:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T05:54:41Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T05:56:50Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T05:58:32Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-07T06:09:44Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:11:40Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:11:44Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T06:12:12Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:12:44Z briantrice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:15:30Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:15:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:16:18Z sigpoll quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T06:19:18Z clique quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:21:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:26:51Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:28:11Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:37:43Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T06:38:00Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:39:33Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:40:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:46:47Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:50:18Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:51:37Z Zotan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T06:52:46Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:54:11Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T06:54:31Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:55:38Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-05-07T06:57:53Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:02:25Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:02:58Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:03:08Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:04:20Z vydd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T07:05:10Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:06:30Z metaphysician quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-07T07:07:12Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:09:05Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:09:07Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:09:46Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:10:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:10:40Z Devon: Who's in Kraków? 2016-05-07T07:10:53Z Bike quit (Quit: tire) 2016-05-07T07:11:01Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-07T07:11:08Z nikki93_ quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-07T07:14:21Z diphuser joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:17:19Z otwieracz: Hi Devon! 2016-05-07T07:21:54Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:23:59Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:25:25Z tos-1 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:28:12Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:29:12Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:29:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:34:19Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T07:36:33Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:36:44Z diphuser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T07:36:46Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T07:42:05Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:42:06Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T07:42:38Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:43:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T07:49:07Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:49:12Z Devon: Hi otwieracz! 2016-05-07T07:50:40Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:56:59Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-07T07:58:41Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T07:59:42Z diphuser joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:00:14Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:02:18Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:05:39Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:10:01Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:12:08Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:16:28Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:16:36Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:19:19Z diphuser quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:26:42Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:30:33Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:31:28Z ovidnis quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T08:31:40Z otwieracz: (here's Slawek) 2016-05-07T08:32:26Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:32:52Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:39:46Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-07T08:42:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T08:56:16Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:00:08Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:03:23Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:06:51Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:08:58Z jacek joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:09:32Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:14:15Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:17:08Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:17:51Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:18:55Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:20:21Z LaGaVuLiN__ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:21:57Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:24:05Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:26:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:38:20Z rogersm joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:38:29Z jacek quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:39:07Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T09:42:09Z jacek joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:43:10Z Kazlock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T09:43:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T09:44:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:45:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:52:28Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-07T09:55:23Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:59:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-07T09:59:39Z jacek quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T10:00:32Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:02:11Z Valjan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T10:10:44Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T10:16:47Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:22:15Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T10:27:10Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T10:27:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:28:46Z EvW quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-07T10:28:48Z puchacz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T10:28:53Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:34:31Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T10:35:15Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-07T10:37:29Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:37:40Z Guthur joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:37:55Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:39:49Z Devon: Babilon blocks port 6667 and https://WebChat.FreeNode.net keeps dropping. 2016-05-07T10:45:34Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:46:50Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T10:49:23Z phoe_krk: Morning! 2016-05-07T10:49:31Z phoe_krk: mood: thanks! There will be subtitles soon, as I said before. 2016-05-07T10:49:43Z mood: phoe_krk: :) 2016-05-07T10:52:24Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-07T10:55:35Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:05:05Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:07:55Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:08:12Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:08:57Z tos-1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-07T11:11:12Z Devon: Vadding about Kraków? Drop me a line. 2016-05-07T11:11:25Z phoe_krk: Devon: Who said Kraków? 2016-05-07T11:12:08Z phoe_krk: (Brb! RL. I'll be back in ~2 hours.) 2016-05-07T11:12:19Z Devon: I'm off for lunch now. 2016-05-07T11:12:43Z phoe_krk: Good, let's talk soon, Devon. 2016-05-07T11:13:23Z Devon: I'll try the AGH lunch stands. 2016-05-07T11:13:34Z scymtym__ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:18:09Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:21:32Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:21:40Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2016-05-07T11:29:42Z nisstyre quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:30:04Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:31:38Z p_l: beach: Hello! 2016-05-07T11:31:45Z p_l: are you going to be at ELS? 2016-05-07T11:32:00Z beach: Yes. I am almost there. :) 2016-05-07T11:33:17Z beach: You too I take it? 2016-05-07T11:33:24Z beach: ... will be there? 2016-05-07T11:33:32Z Devon: If you're in Kraków, SMS me at +44 785 263 8457 (or +852 5605 9156 but that may not work here) 2016-05-07T11:34:36Z beach: I am still in Warsaw. I'll take the train to Kraków tomorrow early afternoon. 2016-05-07T11:35:23Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T11:35:50Z bjorkintosh joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:37:22Z p_l: beach: in warsaw right now, taking the train tomorrow afternoon (13:50 Pendolino) 2016-05-07T11:37:47Z beach: I am taking the 12:50 from the central station. 2016-05-07T11:38:52Z p_l: ehh, missed you by one hour then :) 2016-05-07T11:39:15Z beach: Oh, well. We'll meet tomorrow evening I guess. 2016-05-07T11:39:54Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:44:25Z Guthur` joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:44:59Z Guthur` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T11:45:36Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:46:01Z Guthur quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-07T11:53:35Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:57:32Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:57:50Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:58:11Z zeroish joined #lisp 2016-05-07T11:59:00Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-07T11:59:41Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-07T12:00:25Z Devon: Babilon blocks so many ports, I cannot even top up my phone. Suggestions as to decent Kraków Wi-Fi? 2016-05-07T12:02:48Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-07T12:04:04Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-07T12:06:08Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-07T12:09:39Z p_l: hmmm... no idea 2016-05-07T12:10:27Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-07T12:11:10Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T12:13:11Z zeroish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T12:14:10Z zeroish joined #lisp 2016-05-07T12:14:17Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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I strongly recommend you write 'STUFF rather than (QUOTE STUFF) for that reason. 2016-05-07T16:18:21Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:20:48Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:21:27Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:21:47Z jurov is now known as j-dawg 2016-05-07T16:24:36Z phoe_krk: beach: Hey hi. 2016-05-07T16:24:54Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:25:00Z moore33: Yeah, hi :) 2016-05-07T16:25:16Z Devon: Anyone in Kraków yet? 2016-05-07T16:25:30Z beach: phoe_krk: Hi. As your mentor, I suggest you react to suggestions like the one from John[Lisbeth] in the future. :) 2016-05-07T16:25:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:25:41Z beach: Hello moore33. 2016-05-07T16:25:53Z moore33: beach: How's Krakow? 2016-05-07T16:25:57Z beach: moore33: I bet you regret not going to ELS at this point. 2016-05-07T16:26:03Z moore33: beach: Or Poland in general? 2016-05-07T16:26:06Z beach: moore33: Not there yet. I am in Warsaw. 2016-05-07T16:26:40Z beach: The weather has been great, and we have had great company; my niece, her husband and two friends of theirs have joined us for meals and other activities. 2016-05-07T16:26:43Z moore33: beach: In the words of Ronald Reagan, "No apologies, no regrets." ;) 2016-05-07T16:26:52Z moore33: beach: Excellent. 2016-05-07T16:26:59Z Devon: Kraków is lovely. Rented roller blades for 15zł/h. 2016-05-07T16:27:51Z moore33: beach: Rachel's sister is visiting, so we're having a good time. I'm aiming to release v0.0.1 of lpsg tomorrow night or early this weekend. 2016-05-07T16:28:05Z beach: Sounds great! 2016-05-07T16:29:15Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:29:21Z moore33: s/early this weekend/early next week/ 2016-05-07T16:30:31Z Devon: EE non-UK data roaming costs 100x and CMHK roaming is worse. 2016-05-07T16:30:51Z phoe_krk: beach: got it, thanks. :P 2016-05-07T16:30:58Z schjetne: Setting the conference in Krakow was absolutely brilliant. Been here since this morning, I'm thouroughly impressed. 2016-05-07T16:31:16Z beach: It is very nice, yes. 2016-05-07T16:32:21Z Devon: Schjetne: You're here already? Want to meet up? 2016-05-07T16:32:23Z beach: schjetne: But it has nothing to do with being brilliant. It has to do with who is volunteering to be the organizer, and where that person happens to live. 2016-05-07T16:34:18Z phoe_krk: Devon: schjetne: I'll be available tomorrow. Today, I'm staying home. 2016-05-07T16:35:05Z schjetne: Devon: I'm not sure yet, I didn't sleep too much coming here. But I will be at the mines tomorrow. 2016-05-07T16:35:14Z beach: Time for me to prepare for going out to dinner. Our friends made a reservation for 19:00, and I have been told not to be late. 2016-05-07T16:35:17Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-07T16:35:32Z moore33: beach: That's almost an American dinner time. 2016-05-07T16:35:45Z moore33: Heh, when he goes, he goes. 2016-05-07T16:36:32Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z rogersm quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z abbe quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z sytse quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:48Z Subfusc quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-07T16:38:58Z abbe joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:39:03Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:40:59Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:41:06Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:45:45Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:46:19Z oleo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T16:48:47Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:52:04Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T16:54:36Z schjetne: I came across a fascinating display today, "Honwedzi i huzarzy na polskiej ziemi", accounts from WWI in cartoon form. I'm tempted to buy the book despite not speaking a word of Polish. 2016-05-07T16:58:47Z schjetne: That is if it's available in book form. 2016-05-07T17:06:19Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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Though that might be overkill in this case. 2016-05-07T18:22:58Z phoe_krk: schjetne: overkill much. 2016-05-07T18:23:05Z phoe_krk: I don't have hundreds of documents to parse. 2016-05-07T18:23:27Z aeth: I like overkill, that's how I got into programming 2016-05-07T18:23:42Z aeth: I'd rather spend 30 minutes programming a solution than doing it 20 minutes manually 2016-05-07T18:24:09Z schjetne: By the way, what happened to buffalo? The Github repo seems to be gone, maybe they merged it back into cl-yacc. 2016-05-07T18:24:13Z phoe_krk: aeth: I won't want to program a solution for a single TeX document. 2016-05-07T18:24:27Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T18:24:40Z phoe_krk: And this document *is* a particular case, like almost all TeX documents. 2016-05-07T18:24:52Z phoe_krk: Unless I'd write a full TeX parser and therefore a full TeX implementation. 2016-05-07T18:24:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:25:00Z aeth: there's a cl-yacc? 2016-05-07T18:25:23Z aeth: Wow, give it another few years and we'll be able to have a Lisp/Linux (Lisp+Linux?) 2016-05-07T18:25:55Z phoe_krk: aeth: I'd like to interject for a moment... 2016-05-07T18:26:19Z phoe_krk: but about cl-yacc, yes - but I'd rather do it manually. There's way too much handiwork required to make the standard workable. 2016-05-07T18:26:37Z phoe_krk: And it's going to happen regardless of whether I use a custom parser or plain old regex. 2016-05-07T18:26:47Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T18:27:16Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:32:12Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T18:34:40Z lisp185 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T18:36:09Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T18:37:02Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:41:01Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: are you aware eudoxia is also trying to parse the TeX sources of the spec? https://github.com/LispLang/ansi-spec 2016-05-07T18:42:13Z badkins_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:42:26Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: I'm aware of this. 2016-05-07T18:42:39Z phoe_krk: This is actually where I got my original .tex files from. :D 2016-05-07T18:42:40Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:43:26Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T18:44:55Z PuercoPop: gtk, btw are you after the same goals or are you trying to do something different? 2016-05-07T18:45:12Z phoe_krk: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/ 2016-05-07T18:45:16Z mood: phoe_krk: I am a few months younger than the standard. When reading through something like CLX those copyright notices from the eighties certainly put things into perspective 2016-05-07T18:45:27Z phoe_krk: mood: Do you have a link? 2016-05-07T18:45:38Z mood: phoe_krk: https://github.com/sharplispers/clx 2016-05-07T18:45:47Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T18:46:04Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:46:45Z phoe_krk: mood: now this is a good read. Texas Instruments... 2016-05-07T18:47:10Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: this link is what I'm after. 2016-05-07T18:53:24Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-07T18:55:41Z reepca` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T19:04:06Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: nice idea. I think something that could be of help is an easy way to build a documentation web page from travis and a standard documentation layout and a markup w/ cl (ultraspec?) specific extensions, maybe Asciidoc. 2016-05-07T19:05:36Z phoe_krk: PuercoPop: right now I'm utilizing DokuWiki markup as it's very simple and doing its job well enough. 2016-05-07T19:05:58Z phoe_krk: It should be easily convertible to whatever one needs - and as soon as I'm able to, I'll port this to some Lisp solution in place of the PHP DokuWiki. 2016-05-07T19:07:04Z PuercoPop: is DokuWiki's syntax extensible? 2016-05-07T19:07:08Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:08:24Z phoe_krk: Yes, it is. 2016-05-07T19:08:29Z phoe_krk: Through various plugins. 2016-05-07T19:08:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:08:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-07T19:08:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:10:58Z phoe_krk: I already have *most* of the standard parsed. 2016-05-07T19:11:28Z phoe_krk: But, there are pieces that will be best translated by hand. Pieces I don't want to touch at all. 2016-05-07T19:11:34Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315507 is a very good example. 2016-05-07T19:14:07Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-05-07T19:14:07Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:14:17Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:14:23Z benkard joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:17:40Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T19:17:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:18:22Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:21:58Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T19:26:28Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T19:31:45Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T19:33:23Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T19:39:43Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-05-07T19:40:03Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-07T19:40:50Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:42:53Z defaultxr quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-07T19:43:40Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:45:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T19:50:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T19:51:50Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T19:53:00Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T19:57:12Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-07T19:58:28Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-07T19:59:24Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-07T20:02:05Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:04:01Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:07:25Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:09:59Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:11:03Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:13:38Z oleo__ quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-07T20:14:32Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:14:36Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:15:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:16:36Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:17:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:18:05Z ggole quit 2016-05-07T20:21:29Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:25:15Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T20:29:47Z benkard quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:31:18Z benkard joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:31:49Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:34:16Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:34:19Z phoe_krk: CLHS question. 2016-05-07T20:34:19Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for question.. 2016-05-07T20:34:22Z phoe_krk: WTF is compound type specifier kind? 2016-05-07T20:35:46Z Bike: i can tell you what a compound type specifier is, if you mean that 2016-05-07T20:36:06Z Bike: the "kind" of one might be its car 2016-05-07T20:37:00Z prxq: by the car you tell its kind? 2016-05-07T20:37:14Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T20:37:19Z prxq apologizes 2016-05-07T20:38:36Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:39:23Z phoe_krk: clhs array 2016-05-07T20:39:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm 2016-05-07T20:39:33Z phoe_krk: What is "specializing" in this case? 2016-05-07T20:41:02Z Bike: a specialized array is one that's meant to fit only elements of some type. like, for example... a fixnum array might be a sequence of words in memory, where the words don't need tags or anything. 2016-05-07T20:41:26Z prxq: phoe_krk: here is one of another kind http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Body/t_and.htm 2016-05-07T20:41:37Z Bike: which is why "an array specialized to fixnum" and "an array that has only fixnums in it" are not the same type. 2016-05-07T20:41:47Z phoe_krk: Combining. Hum. 2016-05-07T20:42:04Z ealfonso: why would (ql:quickload :swank) give me "system not found"? how can I debug this? I've tried asdf:*central-registry* and it looks ok 2016-05-07T20:42:04Z Bike: since a regular array, that's specialized to T (i.e. can contain any object), could happen to have all fixnums, but that's not the same. 2016-05-07T20:42:13Z phoe_krk: Yes, yes. 2016-05-07T20:42:27Z phoe_krk: I'm more trying to wonder what are all the possibilities for this and what they mean. 2016-05-07T20:42:31Z prxq: here's one that abbreviates: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw61/CLHS/Body/t_mod.htm 2016-05-07T20:42:44Z Bike: oh, you're talking about the "compound type specifier kind" in the description, sorry. 2016-05-07T20:42:49Z phoe_krk: Yes yes. 2016-05-07T20:43:11Z phoe_krk: The CLHS seems to use these, but it doesn't have any kind of description what they are or what they mean. 2016-05-07T20:43:24Z Bike: they don't seem to be at all mentioned in 4.2, which is where i'd expect it. 2016-05-07T20:43:44Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:44:08Z Bike: i reimplemented most of the type system and did not have to care about these. 2016-05-07T20:44:46Z phoe_krk: Hm. 2016-05-07T20:44:48Z Bike: satisfies is "predicating". 2016-05-07T20:45:05Z phoe_krk: I have an intuition what they mean. 2016-05-07T20:45:15Z phoe_krk: I'll try to write the missing part of the standard on my own. 2016-05-07T20:45:55Z Bike: ealfonso: what do you mean the central registry looks ok? 2016-05-07T20:46:00Z prxq: the whole thing sounds slightly silly to me. 2016-05-07T20:46:06Z Bike: same 2016-05-07T20:46:07Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-07T20:46:28Z Bike: eql is "combining" 2016-05-07T20:48:06Z prxq: good thing we don't have fortran style subarrays, 'cos then something would be "slicing" 2016-05-07T20:48:51Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T20:48:57Z prxq: at which point the "compound type specifier kind" would have get evicted from the standard, I bet :-) 2016-05-07T20:49:07Z phoe_krk: think about DELETE-PACKAGE 2016-05-07T20:49:09Z phoe_krk: "Murdering." 2016-05-07T20:49:29Z phoe_krk: UNINTERN, "Evicting." 2016-05-07T20:49:37Z Bike: those are weird types 2016-05-07T20:49:48Z ealfonso: Bike I'm using stumpwm. I can run an inferior sbcl and (ql:quickload :swank) without problems. I can eval asdf:*central-registry* on this sbcl process and it's the same as in the stumpwm image 2016-05-07T20:50:10Z prxq: Bike: what type is a formerly interned symbol? 2016-05-07T20:50:20Z Bike: it's probably irrelevant. central registry is legacy now 2016-05-07T20:50:22Z Bike: prxq: T 2016-05-07T20:50:36Z prxq: Bike: T indeed 2016-05-07T20:54:41Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-07T20:54:55Z phoe_krk: prxq: They satisfy #'homelessp I believe 2016-05-07T20:56:22Z ealfonso: I "solved" the issue by directly adding /home/ealfonso/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/slime-v2.17/ to central registry and then (require :swank) 2016-05-07T20:57:30Z ealfonso: which actually loads the 2.17 version of swank instead of 2.14 2016-05-07T20:59:34Z prxq: ealfonso: while I appreciate quicklisp for lots of things, I'm not very happy with its support of slime. 2016-05-07T20:59:34Z phoe_krk: ealfonso: you have multiple SLIME/SWANK versions on your computer. 2016-05-07T20:59:42Z phoe_krk: It's *going* to give you problems. 2016-05-07T21:00:10Z prxq: ealfonso: it's better to have a checked out git version of slime somewhere that you pull to regularily. 2016-05-07T21:00:21Z prxq: wait - 2.17? they do have versions now?? 2016-05-07T21:00:23Z phoe_krk: prxq: Quicklisp manages to get Slime working well *as long as* it's the only Slime installed on your system. 2016-05-07T21:00:33Z Bike: i have like a dozen versions of slime... 2016-05-07T21:01:02Z phoe_krk: various Linux distros tend to mix their own slime distros with Quicklisp's though. 2016-05-07T21:01:11Z phoe_krk: I've seen more than five version mismatches because of this. 2016-05-07T21:01:23Z phoe_krk: Oh, and Emacs's MELPA/ELPA only add to the mess. 2016-05-07T21:02:07Z prxq: indeed. I've always ended doing a git clone and adapting .emacs.d/init.el accordingly. Headache over. 2016-05-07T21:02:48Z phoe_krk: So I ended up learning to *never* download Slime from ELPA, MELPA or distribution repositories. 2016-05-07T21:03:02Z phoe_krk: As long as I use only the Quicklisp SLIME helper, I'm fine. 2016-05-07T21:03:13Z phoe_krk: The moment something else installs Slime elsewhere, stuff breaks. 2016-05-07T21:04:14Z prxq: ealfonso: for a moment I thought you were using stumpwm on windows :-) ("registry" - huh??) 2016-05-07T21:05:32Z phoe_krk: I need to go to sleep. Feeling too weak. 2016-05-07T21:05:33Z phoe_krk: Night! 2016-05-07T21:06:09Z prxq: good night phoe_krk 2016-05-07T21:09:58Z aeth: Interesting... I think I found a flaw in the CL language 2016-05-07T21:10:01Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:10:23Z aeth: (find :baz '(:foo :bar :baz :quux)) ; :baz 2016-05-07T21:10:33Z aeth: (find nil '(:foo :bar nil :quux)) ; nil 2016-05-07T21:10:40Z aeth: But nil is also false, so nil may or may not be in there 2016-05-07T21:11:30Z aeth: FIND should return multiple values, with the second value a simple t/nil for if it's contained at all. Or something. 2016-05-07T21:11:32Z prxq: if you want to know if it is there, you may want to use "member" 2016-05-07T21:11:39Z ealfonso: prxq I have to do this much setup for slime in emacs: https://github.com/erjoalgo/dotemacs/blob/master/settings/slime-settings.el 2016-05-07T21:11:58Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-07T21:12:22Z prxq: aeth: but you are right, IMO. It should be like gethash 2016-05-07T21:12:26Z ealfonso: prxq but I could never figure out how to ask quicklisp to load a specific version of slime. So for now I'm just going to go with central registry 2016-05-07T21:12:30Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T21:13:11Z prxq: ealfonso: it's better to not use quicklisp for slime, and specify the slime version from withing emacs, IMO. 2016-05-07T21:13:37Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-07T21:13:43Z Bike: that is... pretty involved. 2016-05-07T21:15:04Z aeth: Whoever collects a list of "trivial things for the next CL spec (that will probably never happen)", find not being parallel to gethash appears to be a minor flaw. 2016-05-07T21:15:31Z ealfonso: prxq but I need to specify a matching version of swank from stumpwm 2016-05-07T21:15:35Z phoe_krk: aeth: there is such a list at the CLiki. 2016-05-07T21:15:37Z phoe_krk afk 2016-05-07T21:15:49Z XachX_: ealfonso: why a specific version of slime? 2016-05-07T21:16:13Z aeth: ah, here: http://cliki.net/Proposed%20ANSI%20Revisions%20and%20Clarifications 2016-05-07T21:16:31Z aeth: and my flaw isn't on the list! wow 2016-05-07T21:16:31Z ealfonso: XachX_ to avoid this: Versions differ: 2015-06-01 (slime) vs. 2016-02-10 (swank). Continue? (y or n) n 2016-05-07T21:17:10Z ealfonso: XachX_ and lots of protocol errors if I continue 2016-05-07T21:17:27Z XachX_: ealfonso: slime-helper.el avoids that, usually. 2016-05-07T21:18:31Z XachX_: It syncs the slime emaxs loads and the swank lisp loads. 2016-05-07T21:18:42Z XachX_: Usually. 2016-05-07T21:20:02Z ealfonso: XachX_ sorry. I meant a specific version of swank. 2016-05-07T21:20:33Z XachX_: Right. Slime-helper should avoid the problem. 2016-05-07T21:20:41Z ealfonso: XachX_ it was loading swank 2.14 by default even though I had swank 2.17 somewhere 2016-05-07T21:21:22Z aeth: Hmm... I think a workaround that works for me is to actually define a type and use deftype's member syntax, which will then have typep behave as expected with nil in there. It won't work for every case of find, though. 2016-05-07T21:21:23Z XachX_: That's unusual. 2016-05-07T21:22:46Z ealfonso: XachX_ do you mean that slime-helper.el will load an older version of slime to match the swank running at some port, eg 4005? what if I have swank running on another port, or maybe I just want to have the latest slime/swank versions. 2016-05-07T21:23:12Z Bike: aeth: if you actually need this it would probably be best to write your own find 2016-05-07T21:23:25Z Bike: or use position or something 2016-05-07T21:23:47Z XachX_: ealfonso: I mean it will make the slime in emacs match the swank currently in the installed quicklisp. It doesn't do arbitrary versions from other sources. 2016-05-07T21:24:28Z XachX_: If you load slime through some other system you have to load swank through some other system for the best chance of a match. 2016-05-07T21:24:32Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:24:42Z XachX_: Mix and match is not often successful. 2016-05-07T21:25:22Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-07T21:25:33Z ealfonso: XachX_ i could never figure out how to tell quicklisp to install the latest or a specific version of swank. (ql:quickload "swank") seems to insall 2.14 2016-05-07T21:25:40Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:25:56Z aeth: Bike: Well, the context is that a something is defined as either a member in a list (usually keyword), or of a given type. If I define types for members of a list, then I can just make everything be specified as a type, which simplifies my code (I think). 2016-05-07T21:26:07Z Bike: aeth: oh. yeah, that works. 2016-05-07T21:26:19Z XachX_: ealfonso: it tracks the latest release. If you update quicklisp it will update swank. Everything is versioned together. 2016-05-07T21:26:29Z aeth: The broader context is that this is for configuration files for my game. (The bigger one, not the one I can fit into the game jam) 2016-05-07T21:27:09Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-07T21:27:24Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:27:48Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:28:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:28:40Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-07T21:28:40Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:29:04Z aeth: A surprisingly large number of config stuff can be simplified to Lisp types, usually boolean. 2016-05-07T21:29:37Z aeth: And an implicit nil can usually work for booleans, although sometimes it requires inverting the name of the key to :no-foo instead of :foo 2016-05-07T21:31:15Z aeth: Too bad there doesn't appear to be a string/array length range equivalent to an integer range, so e.g. '(integer 0 4) works great for numbers 2016-05-07T21:32:56Z Bike: you could make one with or. it might even not be shit for performance 2016-05-07T21:33:58Z aeth: Yes 2016-05-07T21:34:33Z norserob joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:34:48Z aeth: Afaik, performance doesn't matter for reading/writing most things here. Only for the log files (if I ever add support for them) and the save files. 2016-05-07T21:35:12Z Bike: but yes, it is a little bit unfortunate. i guess most of the time when you have an array you either want one particular length or you are length agnostic 2016-05-07T21:35:35Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:35:40Z aeth: Right. I think usually it's for a string where you want a maximum length rather than a particular length, and since a string is an array of characters, it leads to this unfortunate oversight. 2016-05-07T21:37:19Z ealfonso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T21:38:11Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-07T21:38:24Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:45:20Z aeth: Hmm... Since I now have a simple no-inheritance data structure defined by default values and types, I can make it a struct. 2016-05-07T21:46:20Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-07T21:46:38Z norserob joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:48:34Z benkard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-07T21:50:14Z benkard joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:52:50Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:53:31Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-07T21:53:57Z norserob joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:54:46Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T21:56:30Z norserob quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-07T21:58:54Z norserob joined #lisp 2016-05-07T21:59:29Z aeth: Wow, what I like about Common Lisp is that I can then turn this plist into keyword arguments into the struct creation with a simple funcall to #'apply 2016-05-07T22:00:13Z aeth: Once I had the right model for the data, I did this whole config file thing in... 15 minutes. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-07T23:16:22Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T23:16:30Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:16:59Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:17:19Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:19:45Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:21:32Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T23:24:39Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-07T23:25:06Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-07T23:25:09Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-07T23:26:36Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:27:32Z neogeo joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:28:00Z neogeo: anyone familiar with CMUCL, SBCL SAPs in channel? reading AI Memo 514, found a question about how NIL is represented in CMUCL and SBCL 2016-05-07T23:28:16Z neogeo: presently I'm getting no further than to observe the widetag, lowtag, and address values of NIL and T 2016-05-07T23:28:20Z neogeo: in SBCL 2016-05-07T23:28:36Z Bike: what do you need with pointers? 2016-05-07T23:29:00Z neogeo: The SIMPLE microcontroller described in AI Memo 514, notably, returns NIL for (ATOM NIL) 2016-05-07T23:29:15Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:29:17Z neogeo: or something like that, the homework of things 2016-05-07T23:29:22Z Bike: well, then AI Memo 514 is not using common lisp 2016-05-07T23:29:28Z neogeo: trolls. bye 2016-05-07T23:29:30Z neogeo quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-07T23:29:42Z Bike: Uh? 2016-05-07T23:34:34Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:35:03Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-07T23:35:56Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-07T23:38:56Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:38:57Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-07T23:38:57Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:39:32Z Xach: Bike: maybe in another channel 2016-05-07T23:42:50Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T23:47:51Z roscoe_tw quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-07T23:47:52Z roscoe_t` joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:55:23Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-07T23:55:23Z d4ryus quit (Killed (wolfe.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-07T23:55:23Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-08T00:01:53Z omilu_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T00:05:43Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-08T00:14:11Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:16:04Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:24:13Z drmeister: Hi lispers - I'm in JFK airport waiting for my flight to Amsterdam and ultimately ELS 2016-05-08T00:25:08Z ACE_Recliner_ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:25:34Z Fade: safe travel! 2016-05-08T00:29:24Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T00:29:48Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:32:56Z _death: (declare (flight (safety 3) (speed 3) (space 0))) 2016-05-08T00:35:40Z warweasle: _death: (declare (orbit 5)) 2016-05-08T00:36:35Z p_l: ... not like he is going over any of the problematic routes nor high enough... ;) 2016-05-08T00:36:48Z p_l: drmeister: looking forward to seeing you :) 2016-05-08T00:36:49Z warweasle: p_l: Well, space is cool. 2016-05-08T00:38:05Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T00:39:19Z p_l: space is very cool (hot too, and full of electric currents as well) 2016-05-08T00:40:34Z warweasle: p_l: And lots of radiation. And as we all know, radiation causes mutations and mutations all cause AWESOME SUPERPOWERS! 2016-05-08T00:41:45Z warweasle hopes for super weasle powers. I must find, and be mawed on by, a radioactive weasel. 2016-05-08T00:42:16Z warweasle will someday destroy that Squirrel Girl!!! 2016-05-08T00:42:41Z warweasle: I just realized I might be more supervillian. 2016-05-08T00:43:05Z drmeister: p_l: Great - I look forward to talking with you. 2016-05-08T00:43:48Z ACE_Recliner_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T00:44:36Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:44:36Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T00:44:36Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:45:41Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:48:47Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-08T00:50:33Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-08T00:52:22Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:52:22Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T00:52:22Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:52:54Z seg quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T00:54:21Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:54:21Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T00:54:21Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:55:45Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:57:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T00:58:05Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T00:58:07Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-08T00:58:53Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:02:22Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T01:02:58Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:05:51Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:06:14Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-08T01:07:28Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:07:28Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T01:07:28Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:07:59Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:08:33Z p_l: and train trip back to warsaw ordered 2016-05-08T01:15:36Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-05-08T01:21:27Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:23:42Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:24:13Z cagmz joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:25:32Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:25:41Z edgar-rf_ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:26:02Z edgar-rf_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T01:26:27Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T01:27:18Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:35:53Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:36:35Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:37:32Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:37:53Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:43:27Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:43:53Z NhanH quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:43:53Z faheem quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:43:53Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:45:03Z billstclair joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:45:16Z drmeister joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:45:31Z faheem joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:46:07Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:46:19Z NhanH joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:50:23Z Firedancer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:51:13Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T01:51:36Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:52:33Z d4ryus quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:53:15Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:53:18Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T01:55:42Z Firedancer joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:57:42Z jathd joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:57:53Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T01:59:00Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-08T01:59:45Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:00:27Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:00:28Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:01:56Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:02:03Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:02:30Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:03:03Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:04:38Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:08:43Z vydd quit 2016-05-08T02:09:29Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:20:09Z emaczen: What's the current state of ecl-android? Has anyone made anything with it yet? 2016-05-08T02:21:36Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:26:16Z badkins_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T02:35:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T02:36:32Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:44:46Z cagmz quit 2016-05-08T02:45:34Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:48:49Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T02:51:53Z t4nk868 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:55:41Z t4nk868: this is offtopic, but anyone alive and bored to help me with R problem? lisp and r are distant cousins, i mean it has generic functions 2016-05-08T02:55:53Z Bike: is there not an r channel 2016-05-08T02:56:15Z t4nk868: there is but everyone is idle there and on #statistics 2016-05-08T02:56:28Z Bike: you might have to wait 2016-05-08T02:56:39Z Bike: or use stack overflow or something 2016-05-08T02:57:47Z t4nk868: my google-fu is over 9000, still stuck after hour of googling.. here is the problem in a nutshell http://paste.lisp.org/display/315567 2016-05-08T02:58:43Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T02:59:28Z Bike: google says group_by takes two arguments. 2016-05-08T03:00:20Z t4nk868: doh 2016-05-08T03:01:35Z t4nk868: goddamn it 2016-05-08T03:02:21Z t4nk868: feel like an idiot now, all other dplyr functions accept data as 1st arg, apparently for summarize you pass it as 1st arg to grouping functions.... I feel like an idiot now 2016-05-08T03:02:40Z t4nk868: thanks a lot Bike 2016-05-08T03:03:11Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:03:22Z aeth: For future reference, nearly every new language claims to be based on Lisp and/or Scheme. Afaik, it usually just means that the language has anonymous functions, first class functions, and garbage collection, i.e. not very close to Lisp in reality. 2016-05-08T03:03:57Z Petit_Dejeuner: Every language is Lisp with too many reader macros and all the useful features hidden in another package. 2016-05-08T03:04:14Z aeth: e.g. If a language claims to be based on Scheme and does not have first class continuations, it's probably lying. Afaik, Racket is the only language that's actually based on Scheme. 2016-05-08T03:04:21Z Bike: talking about it is off topic in any case. i'm just too nice 2016-05-08T03:04:25Z brh joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:05:36Z aeth: A language can, however, borrow a few things from Scheme. Common Lisp did that. So if you go to Wikipedia's [[Common Lisp]] you'll see "Influenced by... Scheme" in the infobox, which isn't very helpful since it doesn't say what CL borrowed from Scheme or how influencial that influence was. 2016-05-08T03:05:36Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-08T03:06:06Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:06:22Z Bike: R got lexical scope from scheme, says Truth, which is a reasonable idea, since it was the major innovation of scheme 2016-05-08T03:06:34Z mach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T03:06:41Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:06:41Z t4nk868: well i was basing it on getting lisp vibes from R method dispatch, ie call-next-method and such 2016-05-08T03:07:08Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:07:15Z Bike: you know perfectly well that has nothing to do with your data summarization function. just... i don't mind helping, but we segregate channels by topic for a reason, you know? 2016-05-08T03:08:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1) 2016-05-08T03:09:28Z brh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:09:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: Bike: R got lexical scope from algol :^) 2016-05-08T03:10:02Z Bike: i'm just parroting. my R experience consists of doing a linear regression once 2016-05-08T03:10:39Z aeth: Comparing X with Lisp is arguably a ##lisp (for Lisp family) topic, but more likely a #lispcafe topic 2016-05-08T03:11:54Z aeth: Wikipedia's [[R (programming language)]] doesn't even claim CL influence, just Scheme influence, so even if it is accurate, this isn't the channel for Scheme or Scheme-influenced languages 2016-05-08T03:15:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: I like how the channel for Common Lisp has to specify it isn't for any lisp dialect AND has to specify it isn't for any language based off of a dialect of lisp. 2016-05-08T03:15:25Z emaczen: What's a good way to debug lisp programs? I want to debug someone else's code, but I'm kind of weary of inserting break statements and just generally modifying their code. 2016-05-08T03:15:26Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:15:28Z emaczen: Is this paranoia? 2016-05-08T03:15:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: The universal language. 2016-05-08T03:15:51Z Bike: emaczen: you can use conditions and backtraces, for a start? 2016-05-08T03:16:05Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:16:07Z t4nk868: well, there aren't a lot of languages with generic functions with multiple dispatch tbh I was surprised R had it 2016-05-08T03:16:34Z emaczen: t4nk868: Don't most dynamic OO langauges do it (I'm pretty sure python does) 2016-05-08T03:16:54Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch#Support_in_programming_languages 2016-05-08T03:16:55Z Bike: python does not 2016-05-08T03:17:04Z Bike: methods are attached to objects 2016-05-08T03:17:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: __len__ 2016-05-08T03:17:12Z aeth: Wikipedia lists about 30 2016-05-08T03:17:15Z t4nk868: emaczen: just add bunch of logging 2016-05-08T03:17:22Z emaczen: Bike: I got this output in my REPL and my lisp just quit ; Evaluation aborted on #. 2016-05-08T03:17:41Z Bike: that's a lot worse than most lisp debugging starts :/ 2016-05-08T03:17:44Z aeth: Generic functions, those are rarer 2016-05-08T03:17:49Z t4nk868: at least thats the way I do it using my own lib. tons of logging everywhere and a way to turn level up/down 2016-05-08T03:17:53Z emaczen: Should I be paranoid about modifying someone else's code? I don't want to introduce a typo etc... 2016-05-08T03:18:02Z Petit_Dejeuner: Trace might help if you're using slime. https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Disassembly.html#Disassembly 2016-05-08T03:18:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: emaczen: diff if you're worried? 2016-05-08T03:18:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: or if you're using git, it's even easier 2016-05-08T03:18:29Z aeth: emaczen: check it into git, even if it's just a local git project with git init 2016-05-08T03:18:42Z aeth: emaczen: then you can tell what changes you made with git diff, and if you introduce a mistake that breaks the code, you can see it 2016-05-08T03:18:50Z Petit_Dejeuner has just been changing stuff downloaded with quicklisp in the repo 2016-05-08T03:18:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: :/ 2016-05-08T03:19:18Z t4nk868: Petit_Dejeuner: there is local-projects thing in quicklisp from what i remember 2016-05-08T03:19:34Z t4nk868: you just clone git package there, and it would use that instead of downloaded one 2016-05-08T03:20:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: that sounds nice 2016-05-08T03:20:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: Now I just have to figure out how to use github without cookies and I'll be able to contribute. 2016-05-08T03:22:33Z aeth: What I generally do with local-projects is that I clone to ~/git/other/ and then make links in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ 2016-05-08T03:22:54Z t4nk868: don't get it about github, what do cookies have to do with it? or you mean like commenting on issues and stuff? 2016-05-08T03:23:36Z aeth: Using links and my directory structure I can (1) tell which git projects I can commit to (I can't commit to the ones in ~/git/other/) and (2) revert to the quicklisp version of the project simply by removing a link, without having to redownload the entire git repo later if I want to switch back 2016-05-08T03:27:13Z rjnw joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:27:54Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:29:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: t4nk868: can't login 2016-05-08T03:29:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: I've been trying to get by without modern web, but that's for another channel. 2016-05-08T03:32:47Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:33:11Z aeth: Computers are getting faster. The web browsing experience is getting slower. The rate of the later is faster than the rate of the former. Someone should find a way to replace the modern web with a bunch of macros. 2016-05-08T03:35:24Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-08T03:35:32Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'll opine about this in #lispcafe. 2016-05-08T03:35:48Z aeth: Good idea. 2016-05-08T03:36:26Z emaczen: Any CCL users who have used build-application before? 2016-05-08T03:37:09Z pjb: emaczen: I use it. 2016-05-08T03:37:29Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T03:39:15Z emaczen: pjb: Want to talk on #ccl? 2016-05-08T03:39:22Z pjb: Sure. 2016-05-08T03:53:12Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:01:52Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:03:28Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:05:17Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:06:41Z sepi: Does anyone know how I can parse a malformed xml/html document using closure-html. I get a RUNE-DOM::DOM-EXCEPTION, more particularly a NAMESPACE_ERR. THe problem is that the document does not specify any namespace but uses the xml: prefix for a property of an "html" tag. 2016-05-08T04:07:18Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T04:09:30Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:09:54Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:10:18Z groovy2shoes: hey tax 2016-05-08T04:13:02Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:16:18Z pjb: sepi: ad-hoc processing. 2016-05-08T04:17:10Z pjb: sepi: in the worst case, if there is no restart around those exception, you may just change the environment (add artifically the xml namespace), and restart parsing from the start. 2016-05-08T04:20:41Z sepi: pjb: Ahhh, I was hoping the condition system would somehow allow me to do things like that. There is no restart around the function call raising the condition. COuld you give me a little pointer on how to do what you describe? 2016-05-08T04:23:40Z pjb: You would wrap a restart in a loop around the call to the parser, so that when you have this error, you can invoke the restart and loop back to retry the parsing, with the changed environment. 2016-05-08T04:25:09Z t4nk868: use something different then closure-xml, there are several xml parsers in quicklisp 2016-05-08T04:25:49Z t4nk868: i remember testing them, and one of them (unfortunatly don't remember which one) was heads and bounds better then other, was able to load 200 meg xml file under a second 2016-05-08T04:25:57Z t4nk868: i think cxml or such 2016-05-08T04:26:43Z t4nk868: my file had namespaces,but it it had option to ignore them 2016-05-08T04:26:45Z sepi: pjb: what do you actually mean with changed environment? I would somehow need to change a binding in an internal function of closure-xml if I understand correctly 2016-05-08T04:27:15Z sepi: t4nk868: isn't cxml closure-xml? 2016-05-08T04:27:32Z pjb: sepi: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315568 2016-05-08T04:27:52Z sepi: t4nk868: also performance of parsing isn't an issue. I'm doing some web scraping 2016-05-08T04:28:05Z pjb: the mutation needed to the environment would depend on what and how you do what you do. 2016-05-08T04:28:46Z pjb: You need to "pre-define" a namespace. How you do it depends on the xml parsing library you use. 2016-05-08T04:29:04Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:29:38Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:32:51Z pjb: sepi: if there were internal restarts, instead of handler-case you'd use handler-bind, and you wouldn't have to write the loop/with-simple-restart yourself. 2016-05-08T04:33:06Z sepi: pjb: Well, the namespace is supposed to be parsed from the document so I don't really have any control over it. 2016-05-08T04:33:41Z pjb: Perhaps you can modify the input text? 2016-05-08T04:33:54Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:34:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:34:02Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:34:34Z sepi: pjb: yeah, just regex replacing "xml:" with "" should fix it. I just wanted something more "elegant" 2016-05-08T04:34:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T04:38:08Z pjb: sepi: you could read the tag, and the wrap the rest of the stream in a tag that would declare the namespace. 2016-05-08T04:38:27Z pjb: using make-concatenated-stream 2016-05-08T04:40:47Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-08T04:42:56Z sepi: pjb: I just fixed it by regex replacing the xml: with "". It's good enough :) 2016-05-08T04:43:12Z sepi: Thanks for your input though! 2016-05-08T04:44:55Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:45:08Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-08T04:51:16Z sepi: morning 2016-05-08T04:52:21Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-08T04:56:16Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-08T04:57:31Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:57:32Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T04:57:32Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T04:58:08Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:03:05Z beach hopes that, given the cold he has acquired in the past few days, his voice will not be too bad for his talks. 2016-05-08T05:09:13Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:11:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:13:07Z adolf_stalin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T05:13:44Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:16:51Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:19:16Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:20:18Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:21:39Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:22:09Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:24:43Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-08T05:25:16Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:28:30Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-08T05:28:42Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T05:32:11Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T05:33:56Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:34:17Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T05:39:13Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:40:38Z Wizek_ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:40:53Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:41:06Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:42:55Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T05:44:54Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:46:35Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T05:46:46Z t4nk868 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:47:32Z DavidGuru1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T05:56:43Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T06:00:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:08:41Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:09:47Z MrWoohoo quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-08T06:10:48Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:11:55Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T06:21:33Z DavidGuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T06:21:52Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:22:20Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:26:22Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2016-05-08T06:29:33Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T06:30:52Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-08T06:31:52Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-08T06:32:57Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:32:57Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T06:32:57Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:33:51Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-08T06:36:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:37:16Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:37:58Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:42:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:42:57Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-08T06:47:31Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:52:35Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T06:52:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:54:02Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-08T06:54:16Z phoe_krk: morning. 2016-05-08T06:55:46Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-08T06:59:11Z phoe_krk: Looks like a fine day for the ELS before-party. 2016-05-08T06:59:49Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-08T07:00:47Z mach quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T07:00:53Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-08T07:01:59Z drewc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T07:02:37Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-08T07:14:00Z novavis quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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you do not write everything straight into the Lisp REPL. Instead, you write a program file, you save it and then load it when you open Lisp again. 2016-05-08T08:52:01Z phoe_krk: The other - you can save the Lisp image just like aeth pointed out above. 2016-05-08T08:52:09Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T08:52:15Z phoe_krk: It will still have all the functions and variables you told it to make. 2016-05-08T08:52:33Z aeth: That is an sb-ext so there's probably a different way to do it on every CL implementation that supports it 2016-05-08T08:52:53Z jack_rip_vim: OK, I will try it. 2016-05-08T08:53:15Z jack_rip_vim: thanks 2016-05-08T08:53:39Z aeth: I wonder what the opposite is, if it exists. i.e. reset everything. 2016-05-08T08:53:52Z phoe_krk: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 2016-05-08T08:53:58Z aeth: Currently, I just do (cl-user::exit) and then launch SLIME again when I need to do that 2016-05-08T08:54:01Z aeth: That's faster, I guess 2016-05-08T08:54:31Z phoe_krk: I know a person who has slime-r-i-l bound to a keychord in Emacs. 2016-05-08T08:54:32Z aeth: actually, not faster unless I set a binding 2016-05-08T08:54:41Z phoe_krk: You can't really beat the speed of *that*. 2016-05-08T08:54:51Z jack_rip_vim: I didn't use emacs 2016-05-08T08:55:02Z jack_rip_vim: just in shell 2016-05-08T08:55:35Z phoe_krk: You can try emacs if you want to. Emacs and SLIME make working with Lisp much easier. 2016-05-08T08:55:52Z jack_rip_vim: I will try it. 2016-05-08T08:56:17Z aeth: M-x slime-r-i-l vs. (cl- M-p RET M-x slime 2016-05-08T08:56:45Z phoe_krk: aeth: vs C-M-r 2016-05-08T08:56:52Z aeth: The right method to restart an inferior lisp seems to be faster for me to type, but it's more variable, since it could be as simple as (c M-p or as complicated as (cl- M-p M-p or something 2016-05-08T08:57:21Z phoe_krk: vs M-x fuck 2016-05-08T08:57:34Z aeth: I know, you can bind it 2016-05-08T08:57:42Z aeth: I still like comparing defaults 2016-05-08T08:57:53Z aeth: That's something GNU emacs probably gave up on in 1990 2016-05-08T08:57:54Z aeth: :-p 2016-05-08T08:57:58Z phoe_krk: :P 2016-05-08T08:58:43Z aeth: oh, actually, the left method wins. M-x s-r-i-l 2016-05-08T09:04:08Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T09:06:06Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:07:04Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:07:28Z narendraj9 is now known as Guest86454 2016-05-08T09:10:56Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T09:11:37Z Guest86454 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-08T09:14:04Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:15:42Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T09:17:17Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:19:06Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:19:46Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-08T09:21:20Z IH8|N|199325 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:25:27Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:27:07Z benkard joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:27:36Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:30:09Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T09:38:59Z phoe_krk is mostly done regexing the Arrays chapter. Now to the precious handiwork. 2016-05-08T09:42:00Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T09:42:35Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:54:18Z IH8|N|199325 quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-08T09:55:36Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T09:56:23Z ragepandemic joined #lisp 2016-05-08T09:56:28Z jack_rip_vim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T10:04:50Z seg quit (Quit: late) 2016-05-08T10:09:01Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-08T10:10:04Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T10:10:04Z seg quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T10:10:04Z seg joined #lisp 2016-05-08T10:10:57Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T10:12:21Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-08T10:14:42Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T10:16:56Z ragepandemic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-08T10:16:57Z phoe_krk: 16:00, Novotel West in Kraków. I'll be there. 2016-05-08T10:17:08Z phoe_krk: See you guys there! 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-08T16:33:37Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-05-08T16:36:00Z sepi: Is it possible to "splice" a string into a parenscript expression. I have some json that I would like to use in a function call. 2016-05-08T16:39:31Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T16:40:50Z Bike: you could have it assigned to a variable? 2016-05-08T16:41:17Z PuercoPop: sepi: apply 'splices' the last argument given to it afaik 2016-05-08T16:42:01Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-08T16:42:49Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-08T16:45:43Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T16:48:27Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T16:51:52Z wilfredh quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-08T16:52:39Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T16:55:01Z benkard joined #lisp 2016-05-08T16:58:18Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T16:58:18Z d4ryus is now known as Guest28956 2016-05-08T16:58:18Z Guest28956 quit (Killed (card.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-08T16:58:18Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-08T16:58:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:04:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T17:06:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T17:08:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:09:06Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T17:09:15Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:10:38Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:11:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T17:14:31Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-08T17:17:19Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:17:55Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-08T17:19:04Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T17:19:12Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:21:22Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:25:26Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T17:27:17Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:28:35Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-08T17:28:38Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Not sure what to do with +quitter so bouncing to clear btc channels) 2016-05-08T17:29:53Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-08T17:30:36Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T17:31:03Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:31:50Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:33:03Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T17:33:40Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:37:42Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-08T17:38:20Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T17:38:24Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T17:38:37Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:43:34Z moore33 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T17:46:44Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-08T17:48:11Z benkard quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Are you going to be here? 2016-05-08T21:14:29Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:16:10Z phoe_els: If not, we might need to extend ELS to the IRC channel. 2016-05-08T21:17:17Z pjb: Sorry, I won't be there. 2016-05-08T21:18:59Z pjb: But the recital sure looked nice, from the pictures on twitter. 2016-05-08T21:20:49Z phoe_els: Recital? 2016-05-08T21:20:54Z phoe_els: Twitter!? 2016-05-08T21:21:00Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:21:02Z phoe_els: Could you send me the links? Nina needs to see these. 2016-05-08T21:22:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T21:22:10Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-08T21:23:25Z pjb: https://twitter.com/jonatack/status/729417025978667009 2016-05-08T21:23:34Z pjb: https://twitter.com/elsconf 2016-05-08T21:25:09Z phoe_els: Thanks! 2016-05-08T21:25:18Z phoe_els: That's me, the guy in the blue shirt. 2016-05-08T21:25:37Z phoe_els: And it's Nina, my girlfriend, giving a surprise recital. 2016-05-08T21:25:50Z phoe_els: The idea came today at 12:00, so it was a surprise to us as well. 2016-05-08T21:25:50Z fourier: phoe_els: aha good :) 2016-05-08T21:25:55Z phoe_els: fourier: :D 2016-05-08T21:26:20Z phoe_els: I'll keep you informed on what's going on. I'll try to ask around for any and all recordings available so you guys who are not physically around get a taste of this year's ELS as well. 2016-05-08T21:27:53Z fourier: by the way, will there be wifi tomorrow? Does it make sense to bring a laptop? 2016-05-08T21:29:24Z phoe_els: Yes. 2016-05-08T21:29:36Z phoe_els: There's the "AGH Guest" wifi. 2016-05-08T21:29:47Z phoe_els: I connected to it today and it was a little bit slow, but it was working. 2016-05-08T21:30:03Z phoe_els: You just connect to it, no gateways or things you have to click before you gain access. 2016-05-08T21:30:47Z fourier: good thanks 2016-05-08T21:32:27Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:34:47Z phoe_els: I have to run home now. Good night! 2016-05-08T21:35:12Z pjb: Good night 2016-05-08T21:37:28Z fourier: good night 2016-05-08T21:37:31Z otwieracz: bye 2016-05-08T21:38:38Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:39:14Z phoe_els quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-08T21:41:12Z norserob quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T21:43:13Z pjb: By the way, today I switched to stumpwm from ratpoison (since the later seems to have a bug/feature preventing Android Studio 2.1 to display anything in its windows). I'm glad to say that the migration went smoothly, the keybindings being mostly the same. 2016-05-08T21:47:24Z aeth: pjb: Does stumpwm use emacs-style keys? 2016-05-08T21:47:33Z pjb: yes. 2016-05-08T21:47:43Z pjb: and also, you can bind your own keys. 2016-05-08T21:47:43Z aeth: e.g. x foo-commands and x 2 to split etc 2016-05-08T21:47:54Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:50:10Z pjb: Well, the standard escape to stumpwm is C-t (which is arguably one of the less useful ASCII control binding, so you have easy access even from emacs, without it clobbering too many emacs commands); of course, you can select another key. And then you have C-t : to evaluate a lisp expression, or C-t ; to give a stumpwm command 2016-05-08T21:50:43Z pjb: C-t s and C-t S are the horizontal vertical splits. But again, you could bind otherwise. 2016-05-08T21:51:06Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:51:21Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:51:36Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T21:55:04Z papachan: pjb: hello 2016-05-08T21:55:15Z pjb: Hello! 2016-05-08T21:55:20Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-08T21:55:55Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-08T21:58:20Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T21:58:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T21:59:35Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:02:17Z scymtym__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:07:05Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:08:21Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:08:53Z Tristam quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-08T22:09:03Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-05-08T22:11:04Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:11:09Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:12:05Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:12:38Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:14:23Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T22:19:47Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:19:58Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:24:29Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:30:51Z Posterdati quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:32:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:32:17Z nikki93_ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T22:32:27Z phoe_krk: Home now. 2016-05-08T22:35:38Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:37:16Z nikki93 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-08T22:40:42Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-08T22:40:57Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:45:27Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:45:38Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-05-08T22:52:04Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T22:53:01Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-08T23:13:32Z Baggers quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:13:49Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:17:48Z anonymous0 joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:29:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:29:50Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-08T23:29:50Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:36:10Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:38:10Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:38:12Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:38:45Z voidlily quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:39:31Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:40:31Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:44:26Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-08T23:45:42Z jbakid: hey anybody here? got a question about a lispy dialect i invented 2016-05-08T23:46:15Z phoe_krk: jbakid: I am, but not for long. 2016-05-08T23:47:07Z jbakid: ok so 2016-05-08T23:47:32Z jbakid: i invented a dialect that’s called LISP/c and is for writing C from the comfort of LISP (complete with like macros and such) 2016-05-08T23:47:37Z jbakid: but I don’t know how to put it out there 2016-05-08T23:47:45Z jbakid: I have it on github, but that’s about it 2016-05-08T23:48:40Z phoe_krk: jbakid: /r/lisp sounds like a good starting point. 2016-05-08T23:48:54Z jbakid: huh. i never thought of using reddit. thanks! 2016-05-08T23:48:55Z phoe_krk: Also feel free to link it around here and on ##lisp. 2016-05-08T23:48:58Z jathd: Talking about it here is a start. 2016-05-08T23:49:01Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-08T23:49:09Z jbakid: well here’s the link then: https://github.com/eratosthenesia/lispc 2016-05-08T23:49:43Z jathd: Unfortunately, google returns nothing for me, even with "lisp/c" in 2016-05-08T23:49:43Z jathd: quotes. It seems to think it's being clever by ignoring the #\/. 2016-05-08T23:50:07Z jbakid: hmm 2016-05-08T23:50:12Z jbakid: that could be an issue. googlability 2016-05-08T23:50:24Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: ^ 2016-05-08T23:50:37Z phoe_krk: this sounds like something that ECL could like. 2016-05-08T23:52:09Z jbakid: it probably needs more traffic. i added a synonym “lispsy”, but that’s not really that unique online 2016-05-08T23:52:19Z phoe_krk: drmeister: ^ you're doing C++, but this does sound like something that could possibly be uplifted into C++ and possibly speed up your coding a little bit, too. 2016-05-08T23:53:13Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:53:39Z jbakid: LISP/c can do C++, but not as transparently as I’d like. It just needs a few more macros 2016-05-08T23:53:47Z phoe_krk: jbakid: C finally got a proper macro system. :D that's a good piece of code, watching it on github now. 2016-05-08T23:54:25Z phoe_krk: Also, you might want to study ECL, Embeddable Common Lisp that's also written in C. 2016-05-08T23:54:35Z jbakid: i’ll check that out now 2016-05-08T23:54:49Z phoe_krk: Interfacing LISP/c with ECL might give you even more power as ECL is able to call out pure C code and vice versa. 2016-05-08T23:55:23Z jbakid: that sounds like a project i’m working on right now too lol. i might stop development on C/lisp and work on making LISP/c interface well with ECL 2016-05-08T23:55:59Z jbakid: no use reinventing the wheel 2016-05-08T23:56:40Z phoe_krk: jbakid: you might want to talk to jackdaniel. 2016-05-08T23:56:47Z jbakid: what’s his deal? 2016-05-08T23:56:48Z phoe_krk: He's the current ECL maintainer. 2016-05-08T23:57:14Z m_____ joined #lisp 2016-05-08T23:57:27Z jbakid: got it. sent him a PM 2016-05-08T23:58:15Z phoe_krk: Also drmeister is working on Clasp, a C++/LLVM Common Lisp implementation. If he is able to compile C++ transparently in the background using LLVM, then your system might be able to generate C++ code that will be compilable in Clasp. 2016-05-08T23:58:26Z phoe_krk: So you should totally poke him as well. 2016-05-08T23:58:52Z phoe_krk: Just don't expect a response earlier than Wednesday or something; they're both at the European Lisp Symposium now and will be busy for the upcoming 2+ days. 2016-05-08T23:59:02Z phoe_krk: On the other hand, if you're in Cracow now... ;D 2016-05-08T23:59:57Z phoe_krk: !! 2016-05-08T23:59:58Z phoe_krk: I know what. 2016-05-09T00:00:14Z phoe_krk: Are you able to record a five minute video presenting your system? 2016-05-09T00:00:35Z jbakid: I’m sure that’s doable. Why? 2016-05-09T00:00:45Z phoe_krk: I'm not the person responsible for this and can't make any promises, but we might be able to play it during ELS's lightning talk series. 2016-05-09T00:01:09Z phoe_krk: So that could be your first kickstart into global Lisp fame. 2016-05-09T00:01:13Z phoe_krk: WAIT WAIT I MEAN 2016-05-09T00:01:27Z phoe_krk: So it could reach a lot of people possibly interested in your work. 2016-05-09T00:01:52Z jbakid: is cussing allowed here? 2016-05-09T00:02:08Z phoe_krk: Probably. 2016-05-09T00:02:59Z jbakid: huh. that’s an idea. i’d have to work a shit-ton on that video but i’d be willing 2016-05-09T00:03:33Z phoe_krk: Why a ton? A five minutes' presentation. 2016-05-09T00:03:48Z phoe_krk: A few slides describing the overall ideas and how it's done and a tiny bit of REPL presentation. 2016-05-09T00:03:58Z phoe_krk: That shows what you input and what you get as output. 2016-05-09T00:04:13Z phoe_krk: I think I could actually compare your work to Parenscript. 2016-05-09T00:04:26Z phoe_krk: Which is a lispy way to write Javascript. 2016-05-09T00:04:37Z phoe_krk: So LISP/c could be a lispy way to write C. 2016-05-09T00:04:43Z phoe_krk: Interesting enough on its own, I say, at least. 2016-05-09T00:05:03Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-09T00:14:26Z anonymous0: starred and started to watch on GitHub 2016-05-09T00:14:45Z anonymous0: LISP/c 2016-05-09T00:17:02Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:18:40Z jbakid: yay! thank you :) 2016-05-09T00:21:48Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T00:23:24Z Guest3154 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T00:28:05Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:29:14Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-09T00:35:04Z Guest3154 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T00:35:19Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T00:42:14Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-09T00:42:18Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:48:45Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-09T00:51:14Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:53:17Z matt____ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T00:53:26Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T00:57:08Z egg_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:07:57Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:08:02Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T01:08:58Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:09:03Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:09:49Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T01:10:09Z fkac quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T01:10:09Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:13:25Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:23:12Z Ulster joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:23:33Z fkac quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T01:24:18Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T01:28:15Z cyphase quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T01:30:21Z cyphase__ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:30:27Z Ulster quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T01:32:33Z fkac joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:32:55Z cyphase__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T01:33:08Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:36:12Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T01:39:34Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:40:23Z zacts quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T01:40:35Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:48:11Z fewdea_: Anyone know much about cl-libyaml? I have a hash table that gets emitted like this: { messages: [Permission denied: read operation], user-name: fewdea } ... How come that string in my list doesn't get quoted? It breaks when I try parsing it. 2016-05-09T01:50:23Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:51:25Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:54:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:55:30Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T01:56:05Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:57:52Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:59:26Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T01:59:40Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:00:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:00:34Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:00:39Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:08:24Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:08:46Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T02:09:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T02:09:59Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T02:16:18Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:18:36Z PuercoPop: fewdea_: the author hangouts out here (but it is ~11 pm on a sunday so better luck finding him tonorrow). Do you have a snippet reproducing the issue? 2016-05-09T02:19:07Z fewdea_: sure, one sec. lemme paste it 2016-05-09T02:19:18Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T02:20:44Z fewdea_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315653 2016-05-09T02:26:23Z PuercoPop: fewdea_: ah, I see the issue now. You should file an issue. This is a bug 2016-05-09T02:28:55Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T02:30:30Z fewdea_: will do, thank you. maybe i'll poke around and see if I can fix it 2016-05-09T02:31:24Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:37:13Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T02:38:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:38:59Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T02:47:48Z PuercoPop: fewdea_: keep in mind there is cl-yaml and cl-libyaml. The former is the is lispy-interfaces and cl-libyaml a binding over the yaml c library. 2016-05-09T02:48:37Z Nikotiini quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T02:50:07Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T02:56:48Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:57:08Z jbakid: i was on here earlier and lost the contacts i was supposed to talk to 2016-05-09T02:57:31Z jbakid: if anybody remembers talking to me about LISP/c please send me a private message or email me at jonathan.carlos.baca@gmail.com 2016-05-09T02:57:54Z jbakid: https://github.com/eratosthenesia/lispc is what we were discussing. i promise i’m not spamming 2016-05-09T02:58:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-09T02:59:28Z Guest38804 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T03:00:03Z pillton: jbakid: This channel is logged. The location is in the channel topic: logs: 2016-05-09T03:00:19Z jbakid: oh awesome thank you 2016-05-09T03:00:34Z fkac quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T03:05:39Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T03:15:47Z anonymous0 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T03:16:37Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T03:21:13Z aleogen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T03:22:33Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:24:18Z matt____ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-09T03:25:42Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:26:51Z aleogen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:30:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-09T03:40:40Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-09T03:41:03Z jbakid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T03:41:45Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:42:49Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:44:32Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:52:40Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-09T03:53:37Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:54:11Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:54:38Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T03:55:21Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T03:58:59Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T04:00:46Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:01:26Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T04:01:34Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T04:01:56Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:02:06Z anonymous0 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:02:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:02:49Z omilu joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:03:10Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:03:27Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:03:32Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T04:08:31Z Bourne is now known as [Bourne] 2016-05-09T04:09:00Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:10:48Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:11:31Z [Bourne] quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T04:14:28Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-09T04:14:50Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:15:14Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T04:16:39Z davsebamse quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T04:21:26Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:22:49Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:25:54Z anonymous0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:26:18Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:27:39Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:28:35Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:33:14Z pillton: Does the past contain instances of treating foo:bar as (binding-name foo bar)? 2016-05-09T04:33:38Z Bike: ...what? "the past"? 2016-05-09T04:33:58Z pillton: Before common lisp. 2016-05-09T04:34:03Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:34:12Z Bike: i've never heard of a function called "binding-name". 2016-05-09T04:34:41Z Bike: and i think packages were new to CL. they're not in maclisp, at least. 2016-05-09T04:35:03Z Bike: and i don't know what "binding-name" would do. 2016-05-09T04:35:05Z pillton: No. Treat foo:bar has a reader macro expanding to a form like (name foo bar) or (binding-name foo bar). 2016-05-09T04:35:19Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T04:35:56Z Bike: naw. like i said, new to common lisp, you wouldn't need anything complicated like that without packages. 2016-05-09T04:36:02Z Bike: and that's pretty much like find-symbol anyway. 2016-05-09T04:37:38Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:39:27Z pillton: Well, you wouldn't need the package argument to find-symbol. You could use just a single table for symbols. 2016-05-09T04:39:47Z Bike: yes. which is what happened. 2016-05-09T04:41:10Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-09T04:41:20Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:41:43Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:41:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T04:42:25Z pillton: Ok. 2016-05-09T04:42:25Z DavidGuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T04:45:50Z pillton: You could introduce a (package-let ((foo com.really-long.foo)) foo:bar) with such support. 2016-05-09T04:46:30Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:46:39Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:47:17Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-09T04:48:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:50:50Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:51:00Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:51:07Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T04:51:32Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:51:59Z asc232 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T04:53:52Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-09T04:58:09Z loke: Good lunch Lisp! 2016-05-09T04:58:44Z grouzen quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-09T05:04:54Z pillton: So.. Who is blogging about ELS this year? 2016-05-09T05:05:34Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:08:48Z Don_John joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:08:52Z Don_John quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T05:09:02Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T05:09:25Z loke: pillton: You? 2016-05-09T05:09:37Z loke: You're going, arent'y ou? 2016-05-09T05:09:44Z pillton: No. 2016-05-09T05:10:35Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:14:11Z clique: If not you, who? if not now, when? : ) 2016-05-09T05:14:46Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:19:28Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T05:19:40Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:22:54Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T05:23:05Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T05:27:03Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:28:48Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:32:23Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:32:38Z emaczen: Anyone know about building OSX applications with CCL? 2016-05-09T05:37:45Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T05:38:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:39:27Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:39:46Z fourier quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 25.0.91.1)) 2016-05-09T05:39:59Z kolko quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T05:40:33Z clique left #lisp 2016-05-09T05:40:58Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T05:45:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:46:11Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:48:41Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T05:50:16Z lisp494 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:55:42Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:56:41Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-09T05:57:11Z Kaisyu2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T05:57:16Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T06:01:32Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:01:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:01:46Z oleo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-05-09T06:01:48Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-05-09T06:05:46Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:06:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T06:07:23Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:07:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:10:33Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:12:01Z mj12` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-09T06:17:20Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-09T06:25:16Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:32:40Z nikki93_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T06:41:33Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:42:21Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:46:08Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:47:52Z Wizek joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:54:06Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:55:58Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:56:21Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-09T06:57:37Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T06:58:47Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:00:39Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:02:39Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:04:11Z mj12` joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:05:15Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T07:05:20Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:08:42Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:10:20Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-09T07:10:37Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T07:12:57Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T07:12:57Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:13:53Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T07:14:27Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:14:33Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:14:54Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T07:14:55Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:15:05Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:15:13Z chu quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T07:16:17Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:16:56Z pchrist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T07:17:16Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-09T07:19:49Z pchrist joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:24:02Z ASau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T07:27:10Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T07:27:21Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:32:40Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:41:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T07:42:06Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:42:39Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T07:42:40Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-09T07:43:03Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:43:13Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:46:12Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T07:46:17Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:46:49Z agspathis joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:47:19Z agspathis quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T07:48:39Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-09T07:51:13Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:52:57Z p_l: anyone got the password for wifi at conference? 2016-05-09T07:55:08Z jbakid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T07:58:00Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:58:34Z H4ns: i'd be interested, too :) 2016-05-09T07:59:22Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T07:59:30Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T07:59:50Z otwieracz: Same here. 2016-05-09T08:00:10Z otwieracz: Or this will be another university, where being a student I end up on 3G? :( 2016-05-09T08:00:51Z H4ns: the AGH-Guest network does work to some extent 2016-05-09T08:01:13Z otwieracz: But port 1194 seems to be blocked. 2016-05-09T08:01:33Z H4ns: right, that's what bugs me as well 2016-05-09T08:03:35Z otwieracz: I am a bit afraid using „open” network w/o VPN. 2016-05-09T08:05:49Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:05:54Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:06:03Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:06:10Z mrSpec: Please use "Lisp" network, password Lisp05092016 2016-05-09T08:06:49Z antoszka: TBH, any public network, open or not is subject to the same potential proxying/mitming/whatever after it leaves the wireless segment. 2016-05-09T08:06:49Z mrSpec: otwieracz: no, this is not Jagiellonian University! :) 2016-05-09T08:07:00Z antoszka: But yeah, obviously it's better to run WPA. 2016-05-09T08:07:10Z splittist looks forward to the continuous stream of updates from ELS... 2016-05-09T08:07:10Z br0kenman joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:07:31Z otwieracz: Actually, I've got problems connecting into this „Lisp” network. 2016-05-09T08:08:09Z antoszka: The password doesn't seem to work neither for me nor for otwieracz. 2016-05-09T08:08:24Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:08:26Z jackdaniel: same here 2016-05-09T08:08:33Z Munksgaard: splittist: Me too :) 2016-05-09T08:08:40Z H4ns: haha, it is Lisp09052016 2016-05-09T08:08:53Z mrSpec: Lisp09052016 2016-05-09T08:08:57Z H4ns feels he's wearing the 2600 t-shirt for a good reason :) 2016-05-09T08:08:57Z mrSpec: right! :) 2016-05-09T08:09:01Z otwieracz: Haha 2016-05-09T08:09:08Z otwieracz: Yes, seems to work fine now. 2016-05-09T08:09:25Z otwieracz: mrSpec: antoszka says „gamoń” 2016-05-09T08:10:08Z jackdaniel: specbot: yup, works 2016-05-09T08:10:18Z jackdaniel: w/o the specbot part 2016-05-09T08:10:39Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:11:40Z otwieracz: Oookay, finally. 2016-05-09T08:16:01Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:17:28Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:17:29Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T08:17:29Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:21:12Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:21:19Z fsvehla joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:22:03Z Kazlock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T08:32:03Z m_____ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:38:15Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:41:13Z ee_cc_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:41:53Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:43:48Z ee_cc_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T08:45:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:45:18Z ec joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:47:04Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:48:04Z ec left #lisp 2016-05-09T08:48:57Z curoius_corn joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:54:23Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:56:01Z egg_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T08:56:28Z egg_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T08:58:06Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:01:42Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T09:02:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:06:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T09:14:41Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:16:07Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:18:50Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:20:23Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:21:10Z zeissoctopus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T09:27:36Z aleogen: When I import a modules in REPL, how can I check which symbols have been loaded from the module imported? 2016-05-09T09:28:03Z varjag: tab complete the pkg prefix 2016-05-09T09:28:10Z varjag: if you use slime 2016-05-09T09:29:16Z varjag: but really they all are "loaded" 2016-05-09T09:29:45Z curoius_corn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T09:31:51Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T09:33:37Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:38:36Z TMM quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-09T09:42:38Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:44:12Z lisp494 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T09:44:16Z Bahman quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T09:50:34Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-09T09:56:11Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:00:36Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:03:46Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T10:04:23Z fsvehla quit (Quit: fsvehla) 2016-05-09T10:05:13Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:06:26Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:12:09Z chu joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:12:10Z chu quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T10:12:28Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:12:28Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:12:37Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T10:13:12Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T10:13:52Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:14:07Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:14:17Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:15:30Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:18:33Z egg_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T10:18:38Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:18:56Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:25:10Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:26:22Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:26:34Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T10:28:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:31:15Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:31:16Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:31:50Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-09T10:33:22Z TMM joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:34:22Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T10:34:40Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:36:29Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:36:54Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:37:49Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:37:55Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:42:28Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:42:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:44:04Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T10:48:25Z Xof: I hope the wifi password will be different tomorrow 2016-05-09T10:48:33Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T10:48:41Z Xof: is there a hashtag? 2016-05-09T10:52:15Z Xof: (yes there is) 2016-05-09T10:54:21Z moore33: Xof: But you're not there? 2016-05-09T10:54:52Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-09T11:00:18Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:03:12Z Xof: sadly not 2016-05-09T11:04:01Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T11:05:46Z Mon_Ouie quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T11:14:51Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T11:15:35Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:16:05Z Xach: so sadly 2016-05-09T11:16:40Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:24:56Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T11:26:47Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, hey, can I make so using ECL? 2016-05-09T11:27:18Z krwq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T11:27:44Z anonymous0 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:30:44Z phoe_krk: This is phoe from the ELS conference. 2016-05-09T11:31:00Z phoe_krk: I'm recording interviews with people who give talks; it seems like the talks themselves are being recorded. 2016-05-09T11:31:01Z m_____ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:31:09Z phoe_krk: I'll upload the first (today's) batch in the evening. 2016-05-09T11:31:14Z phoe_krk afk 2016-05-09T11:31:57Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T11:32:41Z sepi: Bike: Then I would still need to parse it as a json string. IT's a possibility but not the most simple one. 2016-05-09T11:34:40Z anonymous0 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T11:36:46Z sepi: phoe_krk: Very nice. Thanks a lot ! 2016-05-09T11:44:05Z varjag: yep thanks phoe_krk 2016-05-09T11:48:13Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:49:50Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:51:51Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-09T11:56:41Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-09T12:01:07Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:03:20Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: do what? 2016-05-09T12:03:39Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:04:10Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: check symbols? yes, ecl's swank has implementation of this 2016-05-09T12:04:12Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, shared object 2016-05-09T12:04:18Z DeadTrickster: .so 2016-05-09T12:04:24Z jackdaniel: yes you can 2016-05-09T12:04:30Z DeadTrickster: I checked list of exported symbols 2016-05-09T12:04:37Z DeadTrickster: is there any way to control it? 2016-05-09T12:04:42Z DeadTrickster: like export my defun 2016-05-09T12:04:55Z DeadTrickster: say defun hello-world and export it as hello_world 2016-05-09T12:05:05Z DeadTrickster: maybe ecl_hello_world 2016-05-09T12:05:12Z jackdaniel: you mean in the C world? 2016-05-09T12:05:19Z DeadTrickster: yea 2016-05-09T12:05:35Z DeadTrickster: I see there is ecl_function_Dispatch 2016-05-09T12:05:41Z DeadTrickster: what does it mean? 2016-05-09T12:05:57Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: I don't have access to sources right now (I'm on the netbook) 2016-05-09T12:06:28Z DeadTrickster: it was just nm -D :-) 2016-05-09T12:06:46Z jackdaniel: you can provide C name for your function and export it, you may also call funcall from the C function 2016-05-09T12:07:10Z DeadTrickster: that is what I'm asking about. I have lisp function and want to call it from C 2016-05-09T12:07:14Z p_l: DeadTrickster: if you want to really control exported dynamic symbols, you need to use linker directly to manipulate the symbol table 2016-05-09T12:07:47Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: check out the ecl's examples directory 2016-05-09T12:07:52Z jackdaniel: it should be somewhere tehre 2016-05-09T12:07:56Z DeadTrickster: will do 2016-05-09T12:08:16Z DeadTrickster: gitlab is extremely slow though 2016-05-09T12:09:03Z jackdaniel: you may use common-lisp.net's mirror 2016-05-09T12:09:21Z jackdaniel: or the tar archive in files/ section on ecl homepage 2016-05-09T12:09:31Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, what about signals handling? 2016-05-09T12:09:47Z jackdaniel: it works, not sure how well it's documented though 2016-05-09T12:10:14Z jackdaniel: you may search in the manual, if it's not there, its src/c/unixint.d file (it's messy file, but didn't have time to document it yet) 2016-05-09T12:10:17Z DeadTrickster: ok does it use signlas for something? like sbcl is using sigusr1 for gc 2016-05-09T12:10:18Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:10:42Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: yes, the signals used by bdwgc on your platform 2016-05-09T12:11:22Z DeadTrickster: and without manual chaining I can't use it right? 2016-05-09T12:11:29Z DeadTrickster: s/it/them/ 2016-05-09T12:11:55Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: there is an undocumented interface if you're into that stuff. I don't know it well enough to help you 2016-05-09T12:12:44Z DeadTrickster: ok, thanks anyway :-) 2016-05-09T12:12:53Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-05-09T12:13:02Z jackdaniel: I'll let you know when I'll get to signals 2016-05-09T12:13:13Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:13:14Z DeadTrickster: awesome! 2016-05-09T12:13:26Z jackdaniel: (probably not any soon though, there is so many undocumented things ;p) 2016-05-09T12:14:12Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:14:39Z DeadTrickster: yea I see, but I'll probably dive into it myself anyway since I'm itching to build this Frankenstein monster 2016-05-09T12:14:45Z djinni` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T12:16:59Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: if you'll have time, I'd love to incorporate your insights :) tutorial/notes/documentation would be very welcomed 2016-05-09T12:20:37Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:21:24Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:21:25Z gniourf quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T12:21:55Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:23:43Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-09T12:24:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:24:30Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:25:53Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:26:20Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:29:26Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:30:42Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:39:35Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-09T12:39:54Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:44:07Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:44:57Z djinni` joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:51:03Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:53:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:55:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T12:56:04Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-09T12:58:13Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:03:16Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:03:30Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:06:36Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:07:38Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:08:53Z tsp1 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:09:36Z Bahman quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T13:09:47Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:10:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:10:21Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:11:55Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:12:10Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:13:16Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:16:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T13:17:18Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:18:57Z badkins joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:19:23Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:24:36Z m_____ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T13:24:59Z m_____ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:25:25Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2016-05-09T13:26:44Z zygentoma is now known as zygentoma^bonn 2016-05-09T13:27:03Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:30:37Z cyphase quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:31:03Z dwrngr quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:31:07Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T13:31:15Z jdz quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-09T13:31:22Z jdz_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:32:08Z jdz_ is now known as jdz 2016-05-09T13:32:26Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:33:52Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:34:22Z jbakid quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T13:35:36Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:37:22Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:38:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:38:24Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T13:38:24Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:39:07Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T13:39:41Z phoe_krk: Six interviews now. More will come. 2016-05-09T13:40:16Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:40:39Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:41:17Z Munksgaard: phoe_krk: Where are they being uploaded to/ 2016-05-09T13:41:19Z Munksgaard: ?* 2016-05-09T13:41:46Z phoe_krk: Munksgaard: I need to ask for verification on some of them, but they'll be available at the kraklisp Youtube channel. 2016-05-09T13:41:57Z phoe_krk: s/ask/wait/ 2016-05-09T13:42:31Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:42:52Z phoe_krk: s/at/on/ 2016-05-09T13:43:04Z phoe_krk: My English still needs polishing. 2016-05-09T13:43:20Z Munksgaard: phoe_krk: No worries, I understood it the first time :) 2016-05-09T13:43:36Z Munksgaard: And thanks! I'll keep an eye on your videos. 2016-05-09T13:44:07Z phoe_krk: There will be a whole batch of potato quality random ELS interviews, no worry. 2016-05-09T13:44:28Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:45:36Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:46:04Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:46:29Z phoe_krk: Well, maybe beet quality. It records at 1280x720. 2016-05-09T13:46:47Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:47:11Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:47:12Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T13:47:39Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:49:14Z nikki93 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:50:22Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:52:50Z AeroNotix: if there's a meet up later today in Krakow, will someone ping me please? 2016-05-09T13:53:37Z AeroNotix: phoe_krk: why are you giving interviews? 2016-05-09T13:53:40Z AeroNotix: who are you? 2016-05-09T13:53:50Z AeroNotix: (forgive me if this should be obvious) 2016-05-09T13:54:55Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:55:49Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:56:14Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-09T13:58:44Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T13:59:04Z phoe_krk: AeroNotix: I'm not giving interviews; I'm taking them! 2016-05-09T13:59:24Z phoe_krk: I plan on interviewing everyone who gives a talk at the ELS and so far I've succeeded. 2016-05-09T13:59:49Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:00:48Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:01:20Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:01:22Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T14:01:22Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:03:19Z Munksgaard: And for the record, ELS = www.european-lisp-symposium.org/ 2016-05-09T14:08:45Z moore33: phoe_krk: Have you seen some good talks? 2016-05-09T14:09:52Z phoe_krk: moore33: haven't seen a bad talk here so far. :D 2016-05-09T14:10:01Z phoe_krk: Munksgaard: yes, thanks. 2016-05-09T14:12:53Z Jonsky: Will the talks be on YouTube ? 2016-05-09T14:12:57Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:13:47Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:16:49Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:17:46Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:18:12Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:18:26Z brpocock joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:18:54Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:21:42Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:22:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:22:52Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:23:27Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-09T14:23:45Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:23:53Z kobain quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T14:23:53Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:24:08Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:25:56Z sjl quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2016-05-09T14:26:16Z flip214: phoe_krk: it would be much more ambitious to interview everybody who's *not* at ELS. 2016-05-09T14:27:44Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:28:05Z phoe_krk: Jonsky: I don't know about the talks themselves. You'll need to ask the ELS organizers. 2016-05-09T14:28:15Z phoe_krk: flip214: this will take much more time and money, and I don't have these just yet. 2016-05-09T14:28:31Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:28:45Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:31:04Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:31:29Z hargettp joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:31:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:32:11Z brpocock left #lisp 2016-05-09T14:33:12Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:33:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:34:03Z flip214: Yeah, I can guess. Sounds like the task of insulting every single person (yeah, see Wowbagger t.I.P.) 2016-05-09T14:34:53Z ssice: How do I get the parent directory of a pathname pointing to a file? 2016-05-09T14:35:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:35:36Z ssice: not (directory-namestring *the-pathname*), but its parent 2016-05-09T14:36:23Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-09T14:36:34Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:36:41Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:38:10Z H4ns: ssice: look at pathname-directory and merge-pathnames/make-pathname 2016-05-09T14:38:59Z AeroNotix: ssice: http://weitz.de/cl-fad/#pathname-parent-directory 2016-05-09T14:39:36Z phoe_krk: (make-pathname :directory (butlast (pathname-directory pathname))) is a quick hack, ssice 2016-05-09T14:40:42Z H4ns: for portability, you'd want :defaults pathname in the make-pathname call 2016-05-09T14:41:04Z flip214: can FORMAT ~s restrict the number of characters to some max., too? So that too long strings get printed via "beginning..."? 2016-05-09T14:41:16Z H4ns: flip214: nope 2016-05-09T14:41:56Z flip214: thanks! 2016-05-09T14:42:20Z badkins left #lisp 2016-05-09T14:42:46Z vydd quit 2016-05-09T14:43:18Z i44 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:43:28Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T14:45:50Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-09T14:46:03Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:46:38Z tkd quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T14:47:05Z tkd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:47:17Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:47:31Z trn quit (Quit: quit) 2016-05-09T14:47:43Z phoe_krk: "For some reason, CCL is faster than SBCL. SBCL is a bit slower, ECL is even slower, and CLISP is an interpreter." 2016-05-09T14:47:47Z phoe_krk: XD 2016-05-09T14:49:06Z moore33: phoe_krk: Do tell. 2016-05-09T14:49:17Z phoe_krk: Just a random quote from ELS talks. 2016-05-09T14:49:29Z i44 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T14:49:33Z phoe_krk: The "accessing local variables while debugging" talk. 2016-05-09T14:49:40Z moore33: phoe_krk: I guessed as much, but I was wondering the context. ok. 2016-05-09T14:50:56Z novavis quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-09T14:51:10Z AeroNotix: all this happening just down the road from me, jealous. I totally didn't hear about the symposium. Y'all need to do some more marketing! 2016-05-09T14:51:16Z AeroNotix: it's literally on the street next to my hosue 2016-05-09T14:51:43Z phoe_krk: AeroNotix: Are you in Cracow now? 2016-05-09T14:51:58Z AeroNotix: phoe_krk: yeah, I live here 2016-05-09T14:57:39Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T14:59:02Z moore33: AeroNotix: Can't you just head on over? 2016-05-09T14:59:20Z AeroNotix: moore33: lots of tyranny to deal with at $DAYJOB 2016-05-09T14:59:59Z moore33: Crash the dinner then. 2016-05-09T14:59:59Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-09T15:00:05Z AeroNotix: moore33: that's the plan :) 2016-05-09T15:01:25Z moore33: AeroNotix: Excellent! Tell them moore33 told you to :) You could probably arrange to buy a ticket to the dinner, tho'. 2016-05-09T15:01:38Z AeroNotix: moore33: any idea of the cost? 2016-05-09T15:01:53Z AeroNotix: wouldn't mind putting some faces to names in here 2016-05-09T15:02:06Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T15:02:08Z phoe_krk: No idea. 2016-05-09T15:02:16Z moore33: 30 euros? 2016-05-09T15:02:17Z phoe_krk: But just in case, tell them phoe_krk told you to, too. 2016-05-09T15:02:27Z AeroNotix: haha alright :) 2016-05-09T15:02:31Z moore33: I really don't know. 2016-05-09T15:02:45Z H4ns: AeroNotix: you can attend the dinner in my name 2016-05-09T15:02:53Z AeroNotix: H4ns: you're not going? 2016-05-09T15:03:09Z przl quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-09T15:03:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T15:03:36Z moore33: The ELS 2008 dinner in Bordeaux would have been worth about 30 euros. So I'll extrapolate that to present-day Krakow. 2016-05-09T15:03:39Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-09T15:03:40Z H4ns: AeroNotix: nope, i've just noticed that my flight back leaves at 7 2016-05-09T15:03:51Z Munksgaard left #lisp 2016-05-09T15:03:59Z AeroNotix: H4ns: :( 2016-05-09T15:04:04Z mmos joined #lisp 2016-05-09T15:04:05Z AeroNotix: We'll see. 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I don't see any standard functions that do this, so I am trying nested with-open-file forms and something like (write-byte (read-byte ... )) 2016-05-09T19:07:15Z benkard quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-09T19:09:44Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-09T19:09:53Z Xach: emaczen: read-sequence speeds that up. 2016-05-09T19:10:03Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:10:06Z Xach: emaczen: alexandria:copy-file is a handy way to do it. 2016-05-09T19:11:00Z emaczen: Xach: I would like to know a little more about streams though as well. 2016-05-09T19:11:16Z Xach: emaczen: ok. 2016-05-09T19:11:24Z emaczen: I don't know why looping, read-byte and write-byte doesn't work 2016-05-09T19:13:00Z flip214: is there some trick to get SBCL to inline LABELS? I'm trying (LABELS ((...)) (DECLARE (INLINE fn1 fn2)) ...) but the disassembly still shows calls, instead of collapsing the whole thing 2016-05-09T19:13:10Z Xach: emaczen: if done correctly, it works. 2016-05-09T19:13:21Z Xach: emaczen: if it does not work for you, perhaps the error can be corrected. 2016-05-09T19:13:26Z flip214: I'd have hoped that these functions being called with constant arguments would resolve their calls to the resulting constants 2016-05-09T19:13:37Z Fleurety quit (Quit: Bah, stupid error messages.) 2016-05-09T19:13:54Z emaczen: Xach: i'll make a paste 2016-05-09T19:14:03Z attila_lendvai: flip214: I think you need to use (inline #'foo) 2016-05-09T19:14:48Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:15:03Z Bike: no, it's just the name 2016-05-09T19:15:40Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T19:18:39Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:19:03Z emaczen: How do you all write pastes? 2016-05-09T19:19:09Z emaczen: what is pastebot? 2016-05-09T19:19:13Z Xach: emaczen: paste.lisp.org 2016-05-09T19:19:39Z emaczen: Xach: I've written pastes there before, but it seems like there was some kind of integration with IRC channels? 2016-05-09T19:19:44Z Xach: emaczen: no, there is not. 2016-05-09T19:19:53Z Xach: emaczen: share the url manually 2016-05-09T19:20:14Z emaczen: Xach: Ok, is someone here maintaining paste.lisp.org? 2016-05-09T19:20:19Z Xach: emaczen: yes. 2016-05-09T19:20:25Z emaczen: who? 2016-05-09T19:20:27Z Xach: I don't know. 2016-05-09T19:20:35Z emaczen: I see it is hosted on commonlisp.net 2016-05-09T19:20:40Z Xach: Where is your paste? 2016-05-09T19:20:54Z emaczen: Xach: I'll get to it 2016-05-09T19:21:02Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T19:21:16Z PuercoPop: it appears there was some code to use it through xml-rpc but idk if it is working 2016-05-09T19:22:31Z emaczen: Xach: I realized that I couldn't make it with w3m in emacs anymore :( because I can't get any information about the captcha AFAIK -- it used to ask me to multiply numbers as an alternative to the image I see in firefox 2016-05-09T19:23:57Z emaczen: http://paste.lisp.org/+6RLF 2016-05-09T19:24:55Z cyphase joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:25:11Z Xach: emaczen: what do you get for an error? Is it related to the stream element type? 2016-05-09T19:25:13Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-09T19:25:16Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-09T19:25:39Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:25:40Z emaczen: The value # is not of the expected type (AND CCL::BINARY-STREAM INPUT-STREAM) 2016-05-09T19:25:59Z Xach: emaczen: ok. so you must open with a binary element type to use read-byte and write-byte. 2016-05-09T19:26:09Z Xach: :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) would do the trick. 2016-05-09T19:26:09Z emaczen: I think I tried that 2016-05-09T19:26:16Z Xach: Try it again and share the new error. 2016-05-09T19:26:17Z emaczen: Oh, I didn't use the write type then 2016-05-09T19:27:37Z emaczen: Same error... 2016-05-09T19:28:33Z emaczen: Xach: Wait, I forgot to put :element-type in the istream 2016-05-09T19:28:53Z emaczen: Xach: Cool! It works 2016-05-09T19:28:56Z Xach: cool 2016-05-09T19:29:17Z emaczen: pjb: you there? 2016-05-09T19:29:52Z Xach: emaczen: another way to write your loop is: (loop for byte = (read-byte istream nil) while byte do (write-byte ostream)) 2016-05-09T19:30:16Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T19:31:36Z scymtym: flip214: i think local functions are only automatically inlined if a) speed >= debug and b) there is only one call 2016-05-09T19:31:41Z emaczen: Xach: much cleaner, but I don't know if I am going to remember that many different types of loop forms 2016-05-09T19:32:03Z phoe_krk: ELS is tiiiiiring. 2016-05-09T19:32:03Z Xach: emaczen: a handful of commonly used forms are quite useful. 2016-05-09T19:32:06Z phoe_krk: In a good way. 2016-05-09T19:32:14Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:32:14Z scymtym: flip214: declaring the function inline overwrites that behavior 2016-05-09T19:32:21Z phoe_krk: I actually need to wait some more for acceptance on the videos; I'll up them tomorrow. 2016-05-09T19:32:21Z Xach: phoe_krk: will you come to the next one? 2016-05-09T19:32:25Z phoe_krk: Xach: I'll try! 2016-05-09T19:32:28Z phoe_krk: Night guys~ 2016-05-09T19:32:39Z Xach: phoe_krk: i hope it can be held in st stephen, canada! 2016-05-09T19:33:13Z flip214: scymtym: speed > debug already (LOCALLY), but there are many calls (with constant arguments, though) 2016-05-09T19:33:21Z flip214: I declaimed them inline 2016-05-09T19:34:11Z flip214: still I can see the calls in sprof 2016-05-09T19:34:11Z scymtym: flip214: and did that work for you? it did when i tried 2016-05-09T19:34:47Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:34:48Z flip214: ah, sorry, declare, not declaim 2016-05-09T19:35:26Z flip214: hmmm, not that easy.... 2016-05-09T19:35:59Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:36:06Z flip214: I've got a (LET ((fn (fn-that-returns-a-closure ...))) and that seems not to be inlined, although I already marked fn-that-returns-a-closure inline too... 2016-05-09T19:39:22Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:40:12Z scymtym: hm, (compile nil '(lambda () (declare (optimize (speed 3))) (labels ((f (a) (lambda (b) (+ a b)))) (declare (inline f)) (funcall (f 1) 5)))) basically compiles to "return 6" for me 2016-05-09T19:40:22Z scymtym: well, i have to run 2016-05-09T19:40:43Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T19:44:53Z flip214: scymtym: thank you! 2016-05-09T19:45:36Z flip214: yeah, this does for me too 2016-05-09T19:52:50Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-09T19:53:08Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:53:08Z Borus joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:53:13Z Borus: Hello 2016-05-09T19:54:22Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T19:54:25Z attila_lendvai1 joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:54:25Z attila_lendvai1 is now known as attila_lendvai 2016-05-09T19:54:25Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T19:54:25Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:54:27Z flip214: can I DECLARE a LABELS inline that is identified via a gensym? 2016-05-09T19:54:50Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T19:55:36Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T19:56:02Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-09T19:56:08Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:00:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-09T20:04:26Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:07:45Z Bike: yeah. just use the same symbol. 2016-05-09T20:08:12Z isBEKaml quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:08:14Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T20:08:33Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:09:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:10:26Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:10:44Z flip214: Bike: ; caught STYLE-WARNING: undefined function: #:G0 2016-05-09T20:10:49Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-09T20:11:37Z flip214: should the declare be outside or inside the LABELS? I'm not sure I understand CLHS correctly... currently I've got it in both places 2016-05-09T20:12:06Z Bike: it should be like (labels (...) (declare ...) ...body...) 2016-05-09T20:12:15Z joast quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-09T20:12:42Z flip214: okay, I'll remove the DECLARE before LABELS 2016-05-09T20:12:50Z Bike: and (compile nil (let ((s (gensym "F"))) `(lambda () (labels ((,s () 4)) (declare (inline ,s)) (,s))))) works with no warning. are you sure it's the same symbol? usually *gensym-counter* is more than zero in a new image. 2016-05-09T20:14:03Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T20:14:49Z flip214: I'm using WITH-GENSYM and use that everywhere 2016-05-09T20:15:00Z flip214: * WITH-GENSYMS 2016-05-09T20:16:46Z flip214: yeah, the problem was the DECLARE INLINE outside of LABELS 2016-05-09T20:16:57Z flip214: still, the function is not inlined (enough).... perhaps too complex 2016-05-09T20:17:50Z Bike: yeah, an implementation never has to inline anything. compiler probably doesn't want to for some reason. like, a really basic one would be it being recursive. 2016-05-09T20:18:51Z flip214: calls itself, but only one time 2016-05-09T20:19:05Z flip214: ie. max recursion depth = 1 always 2016-05-09T20:19:11Z Bike: that is quite possibly too many times. 2016-05-09T20:19:36Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:19:42Z Bike: the compiler might not be smart enough to know the recursion depth is fixed. or it might not even try to figure it out, and just not inline if there are any recursive calls. 2016-05-09T20:20:04Z Bike: of course, that also sounds like you might be able to make it non recursive by separating the cases into different functions. 2016-05-09T20:21:44Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-09T20:22:03Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:22:37Z flip214: yeah, doing that right now 2016-05-09T20:23:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:25:51Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:25:55Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:27:12Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-09T20:28:44Z joast joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:32:36Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:35:20Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-09T20:35:36Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:36:22Z jaerme quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-09T20:37:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:37:40Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-09T20:37:40Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:39:14Z flip214: hmmm, I can't declare a compiler-macro for LABELS, right? 2016-05-09T20:40:05Z phoe_krk: Xach: European Lisp Symposium won't really be held in Canada, I think. 2016-05-09T20:40:58Z Xach: what about st pierre & miquelon? 2016-05-09T20:41:09Z phoe_krk: I don't know! 2016-05-09T20:41:23Z Xach: please look into it! 2016-05-09T20:41:24Z hargettp joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:43:09Z phoe_krk: Xach: ... 2016-05-09T20:43:26Z phoe_krk: Ask the ELS organizers about it. 2016-05-09T20:43:33Z Wizek quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:43:40Z phoe_krk: Also, catch a +1 for making me laugh. 2016-05-09T20:43:45Z phoe_krk hands a +1 over to Xach. 2016-05-09T20:44:52Z Wizek joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:47:00Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-09T20:47:18Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:47:51Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T20:48:17Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:51:26Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T20:51:38Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:52:54Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T20:55:48Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T20:56:01Z vaitel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T20:56:04Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2016-05-09T20:56:05Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T20:57:11Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:57:27Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:58:13Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-05-09T20:59:16Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-09T20:59:37Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:04:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:05:11Z mhd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:05:44Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:05:44Z jathd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:06:53Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:09:54Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-09T21:13:04Z jathd joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:14:18Z phoe_krk: Night, #parens. 2016-05-09T21:15:04Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:16:09Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:18:44Z hargettp quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-09T21:19:47Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-09T21:20:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:21:53Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:26:09Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:29:15Z sepi: how do I write this in a more concise fashion? http://paste.lisp.org/display/315705 2016-05-09T21:30:49Z sepi: Except for replacing if with or 2016-05-09T21:33:39Z phoe_krk: sepi: extract (if fix-xml ...) to a separate function. Can be local with FLET/LABELS. 2016-05-09T21:34:17Z phoe_krk: Also, you can use a single APPLY. 2016-05-09T21:34:47Z phoe_krk: (apply (if fix-xml #'fixed-parse-url #'webgunk:parse-url) (cons uri-str args)) 2016-05-09T21:35:13Z phoe_krk: (if document document ...) = (or document ...), as you mentioned above. 2016-05-09T21:37:01Z sjl: I don't think you need the (cons) in the apply's 2016-05-09T21:37:12Z sjl: (apply #'foo 1 '(2 3)) -> (foo 1 2 3) 2016-05-09T21:37:22Z sjl: so just (apply fn uri-str args) 2016-05-09T21:37:36Z sjl: sepi: ^ 2016-05-09T21:39:05Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315705#1 2016-05-09T21:39:12Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:39:16Z phoe_krk: And what sjl said! 2016-05-09T21:40:02Z phoe_krk: Makes one symbol and one pairs of parens less. 2016-05-09T21:40:19Z phoe_krk: I think it's as minimal as possible with these modifications without changing the algorithm. 2016-05-09T21:40:35Z phoe_krk: Night! 2016-05-09T21:41:47Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-09T21:42:02Z sepi: Awesome, thanks for the hints! 2016-05-09T21:42:43Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:43:34Z phoe_krk: Also. 2016-05-09T21:43:36Z phoe_krk: In the LET. 2016-05-09T21:43:56Z phoe_krk: You're computing DOCUMENT even when *html-cache-enabled* is false. 2016-05-09T21:44:34Z phoe_krk: Kill that local variable and just insert the (gethash uri *html-cache*) in its case. 2016-05-09T21:44:51Z fourier: sepi: whole if could be replaced to cond 2016-05-09T21:44:53Z phoe_krk: You only call it once, too; no need for it to be a local variable as it's a one-parens. 2016-05-09T21:45:09Z nmeum quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:45:30Z nmeum joined #lisp 2016-05-09T21:46:05Z phoe_krk: God damn it, we're feasting upon the poor guy's code. 2016-05-09T21:46:36Z phoe_krk: That's the fourth time this week and it's only Monday. 2016-05-09T21:46:46Z fourier: phoe_krk: it is what you do after a beer and ELS 2016-05-09T21:47:01Z Zacketh quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-09T21:47:03Z Borus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-09T21:49:16Z sepi: even shorter now :) 2016-05-09T21:49:56Z sepi: phoe_krk: still waiting for those videos btw ;) 2016-05-09T21:50:39Z m3tti` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-09T21:50:58Z phoe_krk: sepi: they'll come tomorrow, I'm waiting for data from the ELSers. 2016-05-09T21:52:21Z sepi: no worries. I wasn't totally serious. 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http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_cmp_fi.htm 2016-05-10T03:55:57Z Quadrescence: You might be interested in *LOAD-PATHNAME* as well. 2016-05-10T03:57:57Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-10T03:58:06Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-10T03:58:21Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:00:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T04:01:53Z aeth: wooden_: You might be interested in (asdf:system-source-directory system-name) as well 2016-05-10T04:02:58Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:03:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-10T04:05:16Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:05:37Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:06:40Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:07:16Z wooden_: Quadrescence, aeth; thank you. *load-pathname* sound promising. 2016-05-10T04:07:19Z namra quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T04:10:20Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-10T04:10:43Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:18:49Z BlueRavenGT 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wooden_: pillton: thank you, that's perfect! 2016-05-10T04:44:14Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-10T04:45:02Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T04:46:31Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-10T04:56:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:56:54Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-10T04:58:05Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:00:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:01:02Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-10T05:08:33Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-10T05:09:53Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-10T05:09:55Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T05:11:17Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-10T05:11:54Z Bahman joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:13:07Z rtoym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-10T05:16:58Z alphacapture joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:18:56Z alphacapture left #lisp 2016-05-10T05:19:18Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:19:46Z jsgrant quit (Quit: 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(Client Quit) 2016-05-10T05:51:22Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:53:21Z Bahman quit (Quit: Ave atque vale) 2016-05-10T05:55:01Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:55:03Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T05:55:19Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T05:55:42Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-10T05:56:23Z aeth: Common Lisp is near the bottom of this list, with 3. https://gist.github.com/jiahao/8b19775cee3a6d51706acf0a8c0ec376 2016-05-10T05:57:28Z aeth: Coincidentally, that's what I use in my Common Lisp .gitignore files. *.fasl, .*, and \#* (the last one is unsaved emacs files iirc) 2016-05-10T05:58:46Z pillton: Perhaps common lisp programmers know about global ignore files. 2016-05-10T05:59:14Z aeth: Global as in for all one's git repos? 2016-05-10T05:59:19Z pillton: Yes. 2016-05-10T05:59:41Z aeth: I'd probably still make sure *.fasl is ignored no matter what. Also probably .* 2016-05-10T05:59:45Z Wizek joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:00:11Z aeth: You never know who's going to edit things, and e.g. KDE will create .directory files within the directory if you change the settings in Dolphin, rather than using a better system 2016-05-10T06:00:12Z pillton: *.fasl is for one implementation. 2016-05-10T06:00:29Z aeth: what does CCL use? 2016-05-10T06:00:43Z pillton: Depends on the OS. 2016-05-10T06:01:05Z aeth: I operate under the assumption that the users will be SBCL > CCL >>>>>>> everything else 2016-05-10T06:01:25Z pillton: I don't. 2016-05-10T06:01:28Z aeth: Perhaps ECL or its fork (I forget the name) or SICL will become popular in the future. Adding a line to a file isn't an issue in that case. 2016-05-10T06:02:02Z pillton: Your assumption impacts much more than just .gitignore. 2016-05-10T06:02:30Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-10T06:02:49Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:02:52Z aeth: CLISP is broken twice on most of my applications. Old ASDF and also iirc no threading. I'm not entirely sure on the latter, I just know that I had to very quickly drop testing on CLISP. 2016-05-10T06:03:01Z aeth: (Not my fault, I tried, it was libraries that wouldn't run.) 2016-05-10T06:04:57Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T06:08:10Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T06:08:27Z loke: aeth: CLISP can be compiled with threading 2016-05-10T06:08:31Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:08:32Z loke: and CFFI 2016-05-10T06:08:37Z aeth: GCL is dead. I think ABCL is not very popular (people seem to greatly prefer Clojure when they want a Lisp-like langauge on the JVM). CMUCL shouldn't have many issues if I mostly develop for SBCL. Commercial Lisp vendors are free to send me a gratis copy if they want me to do unpaid work porting my code to their languages or they're free to submit patches themselves. 2016-05-10T06:08:45Z loke: But yes, it's very broken and supporting it is a useless endeavour. 2016-05-10T06:08:53Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:09:06Z loke: aerique: CCL? 2016-05-10T06:10:31Z hydan joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:11:15Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T06:12:03Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T06:12:14Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:12:23Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:15:34Z aeth: What is the fork of ECL that constantly gets brought up in here? 2016-05-10T06:16:00Z aeth: I don't think it's on this list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Lisp#List_of_implementations 2016-05-10T06:16:10Z pillton: Clasp? 2016-05-10T06:16:20Z aeth: Possibly. 2016-05-10T06:16:30Z aeth: https://github.com/drmeister/clasp 2016-05-10T06:16:32Z aeth: It looks like it 2016-05-10T06:19:16Z aeth: I might try to support it, but if no portability library supports it, it will be hard. 2016-05-10T06:19:42Z emaczen: minion memo for pjb: I got both my app and the hangman app to run as an executable but only after adding (#/run (#/sharedApplication ns:ns-application)) -- I wonder if this is necessary, and it also doesn't let you terminate the apps with the menu. 2016-05-10T06:20:17Z emaczen: Is minion still working? 2016-05-10T06:20:29Z Bike: try "minion: memo for pjb:" 2016-05-10T06:20:33Z Bike: i think the colon is required 2016-05-10T06:20:40Z emaczen: minion: memo for pjb: I got both my app and the hangman app to run as an executable but only after adding (#/run (#/sharedApplication ns:ns-application)) -- I wonder if this is necessary, and it also doesn't let you terminate the apps with the menu. 2016-05-10T06:20:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell pjb when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-05-10T06:21:06Z aeth: This list is different from Wikipedia's, apparently. And it does include Clasp. http://www.cliki.net/Common%20Lisp%20implementation 2016-05-10T06:22:15Z aeth: Ah, Clasp uses the LLVM. 2016-05-10T06:22:37Z Bike: big parts of the code are ecl, though. just not the compiler. 2016-05-10T06:22:49Z aeth: MKCL appears to be another ECL fork 2016-05-10T06:24:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T06:25:34Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-10T06:25:50Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:25:57Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T06:27:18Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:28:37Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:28:55Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T06:31:08Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-10T06:31:23Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:31:25Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:32:15Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:32:27Z jsgrant quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-10T06:32:46Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:32:51Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-10T06:34:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping 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Are you at ELS? 2016-05-10T09:53:49Z aeth: drmeister: no 2016-05-10T09:54:53Z aeth: drmeister: By support Clasp, I meant test to make sure my game engine runs on it... It necessarily uses FFI so some user might actually want to run it on something like ECL or Clasp if it works. 2016-05-10T09:55:00Z drmeister: Ah - no problem. I spoke with someone about packaging Clasp - I wasn't sure. No sweat. 2016-05-10T09:55:33Z aeth: It uses exactly the same libraries as the other game stuff built on Lisp (well, unless they're really old)... cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl 2016-05-10T09:55:38Z drmeister: aeth: Got it. Clasp doesn't have FFI fully implemented yet - I do something else for interop. 2016-05-10T09:55:43Z aeth: ah 2016-05-10T09:56:31Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T09:56:40Z drmeister: It's on my list - but I don't want you to put time on it if you need FFI. 2016-05-10T09:59:21Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:00:42Z aeth: The only other big library I'll probably use directly is usocket 2016-05-10T10:00:56Z aeth: I am a very long way away from multiplayer, though. 2016-05-10T10:02:36Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T10:03:57Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:05:37Z malice joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:06:06Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:06:20Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T10:09:42Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-10T10:10:05Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:10:21Z jackdaniel: is it possible to load a system with asdf w/o compiling it? 2016-05-10T10:11:04Z fe[nl]ix: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-source-op :system) 2016-05-10T10:11:07Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T10:11:10Z jsgrant quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-10T10:11:28Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:11:46Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: thanks 2016-05-10T10:18:45Z jsgrant quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T10:19:05Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:20:48Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T10:26:01Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:37:55Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-10T10:37:59Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:38:13Z mingus joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:39:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:42:24Z MetaHertz[wrk] quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T10:43:51Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T10:47:06Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-10T10:47:45Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-10T11:03:37Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-10T11:04:11Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T11:13:12Z theos quit (Disconnected by 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random noise :p 2016-05-10T13:29:01Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:31:34Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T13:32:18Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:33:25Z yvm joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:37:03Z atgreen_ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:37:28Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:37:28Z oleo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-10T13:37:28Z oleo joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:37:56Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:38:35Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-10T13:39:11Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:39:32Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T13:41:02Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:41:41Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:42:47Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T13:42:49Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-10T13:45:09Z douglascorrea joined #lisp 2016-05-10T13:47:53Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-10T13:49:43Z Wizek quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T13:53:22Z 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quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T14:15:15Z eudoxia: these are amazing: http://dydra.com/data/els2016/ 2016-05-10T14:15:25Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:15:25Z luis: Xach: maybe it's #_chmod or something? 2016-05-10T14:15:29Z eudoxia: http://dydra.com/data/els2016/quicklisp.clsql-20160208-git/index.html 2016-05-10T14:15:35Z jsgrant_ is now known as jsgrant 2016-05-10T14:16:43Z Xach: eudoxia: yow 2016-05-10T14:20:09Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-10T14:20:46Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:25:37Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:25:53Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:26:35Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-10T14:27:39Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:27:39Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T14:28:17Z namra quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-10T14:29:24Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T14:29:56Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:33:53Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-10T14:33:55Z 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2016-05-10T17:14:46Z akkad: sbcl have anything like hcl:file-string? alexandria:read-file-into-string appears to do the samething 2016-05-10T17:19:39Z Xach: akkad: not built-in 2016-05-10T17:21:07Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-10T17:21:09Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-10T17:22:46Z akkad: k. thanks. 2016-05-10T17:22:53Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-10T17:23:36Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T17:23:36Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-10T17:24:14Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-10T17:24:21Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T17:27:42Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-10T17:30:33Z lnostdal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-10T17:32:18Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T17:32:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-10T17:37:07Z papachan: morning 2016-05-10T17:40:49Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-10T17:44:07Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2016-05-10T17:46:23Z lnostdal 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Should I still send information in a lisp-readable form, at the risk of making it more difficult for people trying to implement clients in a non-lisp language? 2016-05-10T20:49:58Z pillton: Know thy market. 2016-05-10T20:50:29Z orge quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T20:52:18Z Mawile joined #lisp 2016-05-10T20:55:18Z fe[nl]ix: reepca: congrats, you just envisioned IMAP 2016-05-10T20:55:30Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-10T20:55:35Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T20:55:52Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-10T20:55:52Z Mawile: Silly question, but does anyone know how to interact with files with "+" in their keys using ZS3? 2016-05-10T20:56:14Z Mawile: Debugging it, it appears the + is not escaped, though other HTML entities are... 2016-05-10T20:56:45Z Mawile: Attempting to escape it manually before it gets queried fails too, since the result then gets escaped a second time 2016-05-10T20:58:10Z Mawile: I am thinking it might be PEBKAC with external formats, though I am not sure. 2016-05-10T20:58:25Z reepca: fe[nl]ix: after a glance at the wikipedia page, I'm still not sure what you mean. 2016-05-10T21:01:35Z fe[nl]ix: reepca: see the section "Dialog example", the reply to the command "a003 fetch 12 full" 2016-05-10T21:02:03Z fe[nl]ix: IMAP was developed on a Lisp Machine, and much of the protocol is sexps 2016-05-10T21:02:50Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T21:03:18Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-10T21:03:25Z gilez quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T21:07:39Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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You're happy, the customer doesn't mind you writing the client in lisp. What would you prefer? To have to write a json or worse, xml parser, or be able to use CL:READ? 2016-05-10T21:43:05Z minion: pjb, memo from emaczen: I got both my app and the hangman app to run as an executable but only after adding (#/run (#/sharedApplication ns:ns-application)) -- I wonder if this is necessary, and it also doesn't let you terminate the apps with the menu. 2016-05-10T21:44:36Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T21:44:38Z fe[nl]ix: pjb: xml because I can write validation tools easily 2016-05-10T21:44:42Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T21:45:23Z pjb: emaczen: this is what the usual main.m does. But ccl should do that with a standard application instance. Otherwise how would you explain hangman running? (I never send -run to my application; I let ccl do it). 2016-05-10T21:45:55Z aeth: fe[nl]ix: sxp validation will be pretty easy, but obviously not as trivial as just using CL's built-in reader 2016-05-10T21:46:06Z pjb: emaczen: perhaps the trick is to require cocoa before saving the image? Or perhaps it changed in ccl 1.11 from 1.10? 2016-05-10T21:46:10Z aeth: The more you subset, the better. So e.g. maybe only use plists 2016-05-10T21:46:12Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-10T21:46:48Z aeth: Then you can say, "is it a plist? are the types valid for each entry?" 2016-05-10T21:47:04Z aeth: i.e. plistp followed by checktype iteration over the plist. 2016-05-10T21:47:24Z aeth: Too bad CL has no plistp 2016-05-10T21:47:46Z pjb: Too bad CL has no aethp 2016-05-10T21:48:15Z jathd: What would plistp do? Check that its argument is a list of even length? 2016-05-10T21:48:22Z pjb: reepca: Rivest (of RSA fame) specified the draft of the sexp RFC: "S-Expressions" draft-rivest-sexp-00.txt 2016-05-10T21:48:32Z pjb: We'd need a jathdp too. 2016-05-10T21:48:43Z pjb: Damned, the standard lacks so many predicates! 2016-05-10T21:48:47Z aeth: jathd: even list, and valid keys in every other position 2016-05-10T21:49:00Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-05-10T21:49:02Z aeth: I'm not sure what makes a key invalid in a plist, I will have to look it up 2016-05-10T21:49:04Z aeth: I've only ever used keywords 2016-05-10T21:49:44Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T21:50:13Z jathd: aeth: everything can be an indicator, that's my point. 2016-05-10T21:50:16Z pjb: aeth: indicator---an object. 2016-05-10T21:50:26Z aeth: It would probably be easiest to define something called a strict plist, and require keywords as keys in the sxp validator. Then you can make a lot of assumptions that make it easier when handling the data. 2016-05-10T21:50:46Z aeth: Also, you'd have to keep in mind that non-CL languages might want to parse it, so you can't just do everything 2016-05-10T21:51:00Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T21:51:00Z jathd: aeth: although you have to be careful because indicators are compared with EQ, oddly enough. 2016-05-10T21:51:29Z aeth: We should add that to the flaw in the standard list 2016-05-10T21:51:45Z pjb: keys are tested with EQ, so that would exclude numbers and characters from being indicators if you expect being able to retrieve them. 2016-05-10T21:51:52Z pjb: aeth: not a flaw, a specification. 2016-05-10T21:52:14Z aeth: permitting anything, and then not being able to retrieve it... that's a flaw 2016-05-10T21:52:23Z aeth: Unless you're operating on write-only data 2016-05-10T21:52:49Z jathd: aeth: Sure, if you want to parse it from another language without reimplementing half of CL, you'd vetter restrict it. On the other hand, that has nothing to do with a general hypothetical PLISTP. 2016-05-10T21:52:55Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-10T21:53:05Z sc4les joined #lisp 2016-05-10T21:53:09Z sc4les left #lisp 2016-05-10T21:54:00Z aeth: jathd: Yes, there are two separate issues here. (1) You can't just use plists as your data structure in .sxp files if you want interoperability and (2) Even if you don't want interoperability, the eq test means that there are some flaws of valid keys. 2016-05-10T21:54:09Z aeth: 2 is the flaw, and it's a bit of a sidetrack from 1 2016-05-10T21:54:17Z mrcom quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T21:54:23Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T21:54:48Z aeth: Keywords would have to be used, too, because the concept of a package wouldn't really exist if you're reading in data from a data file like XML. I guess the symbols would be interned in the package where they're read, which might not be the proper thing to do. 2016-05-10T21:54:55Z pjb: on the ther hand, &key argument lists are kind of more restricted plists where the keys must be symbols. 2016-05-10T21:55:04Z aeth: right 2016-05-10T21:55:19Z jathd: Doesn't XML have namespaces? 2016-05-10T21:55:35Z aeth: pjb: And so strict plists would have to be validated for, so you can parse the read data by calling a function with keyword arguments that expect the keys of the plist 2016-05-10T21:56:10Z pjb: Furthermore, symbol-plist indicators must be symbols. 2016-05-10T21:56:20Z pjb: Oops, sorry, wrong line. 2016-05-10T21:56:24Z pjb: They can be anything. 2016-05-10T21:56:38Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-10T21:57:03Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-10T21:57:04Z jathd: pjb: I had CLHS already opened :). That seemed weird. 2016-05-10T21:57:19Z pjb: aeth: in any case, that was the original intend, to use only symbols for plist keys. 2016-05-10T21:57:46Z pjb: for general associations, you'd use a-lists, with :test and rassoc for reverse assoc. 2016-05-10T21:57:54Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T21:59:25Z aeth: (mapcar (lambda (strict-plists) (apply #'make-foo strict-plist)) strict-plists) 2016-05-10T21:59:52Z aeth: Once you make sure they're actual plists, and only take the plist parts of the sxp file. 2016-05-10T22:00:36Z aeth: You can then make objects or structs based on data files. 2016-05-10T22:00:49Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:00:49Z pjb: For a partial function: (defun strict-plist-p (object) (or (null object) (and (consp object) (symbolp (car object)) (consp (cdr object)) (strict-plist-p (cddr object))))) 2016-05-10T22:00:51Z aeth: (Or based on data passed over the network) 2016-05-10T22:01:13Z pjb: (you would still have to check for circular lists). 2016-05-10T22:01:27Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T22:01:37Z reepca: pjb: But I'm not the one writing the client, and what if the people who are (for some reason... maybe they're one's closed-minded brother) find parsing sexps even more difficult than parsing xml or json (*really* closed-minded brother)? 2016-05-10T22:02:03Z mrcom__ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:02:16Z pjb: reepca: just provide a BNF. 2016-05-10T22:02:28Z pjb: reepca: in the BNF take care of not using the word "parenthesis". 2016-05-10T22:02:31Z mrcom_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T22:03:33Z pjb: reepca: list ::= open element* close . open ::= 0x28 . close ::= 0x29 . 2016-05-10T22:04:06Z pjb: reepca: even: record ::= start element* end . start ::= 0x28 . end ::= 0x29 . and don't talk of list ;-) 2016-05-10T22:04:07Z aeth: oh, there's a typo in my code, it's (lambda (strict-plist) 2016-05-10T22:04:12Z aeth: I'm useless in writing Lisp without emacs 2016-05-10T22:06:34Z aeth: I've done a lot of work on s-expressions as data (i.e. a JSON-equivalent), but unfortunately it's incomplete and scattered across several git repos and lots of notes and even just logged conversations 2016-05-10T22:07:13Z aeth: So it's not yet ready for use. 2016-05-10T22:09:08Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:10:05Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:10:23Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:10:37Z mrcom__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T22:11:03Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:11:19Z mrcom__ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:11:20Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:11:53Z phoe_krk: It's over. 2016-05-10T22:12:04Z phoe_krk: I'm about to record my last interview with drmeister. 2016-05-10T22:12:36Z phoe_krk: I have about 85% of all speakers covered. Some disappeared, some refused, some are waiting for approval. 2016-05-10T22:13:03Z aeth: ELS? 2016-05-10T22:14:19Z mood: aeth: yes 2016-05-10T22:15:20Z aeth: I should try to go to one one day. 2016-05-10T22:19:51Z mood: aeth: Well this one is over :) Next year it's (probably) in Brussels 2016-05-10T22:20:25Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:20:52Z aeth: I am in the United States, though. So it's more of a trip if I do go. 2016-05-10T22:22:37Z mrcom__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:22:39Z phoe_krk: ELS, yes. 2016-05-10T22:22:59Z phoe_krk: aeth: some people do it. You might join them in their travel. 2016-05-10T22:23:09Z phoe_krk: I'm sitting next to some of them now. :D 2016-05-10T22:23:18Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:24:27Z jbakid quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-10T22:26:41Z aeth: Although, technically, since I'm part Italian, I might actually also be an Italian citizen through jus sanguinis. The law is incredibly complicated, so I wouldn't know unless I saw a lawyer. Apparently, it's one of the few countries that permits this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law#Attribution_of_citizenship_through_jus_sanguinis 2016-05-10T22:27:53Z aeth: Which would then afaik permit me free travel in the Schengen Area, and hopefully ELS will always be there. 2016-05-10T22:28:12Z aeth: If there's still a Schengen Area in a few years. 2016-05-10T22:30:10Z mrcom__ joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:31:44Z malbertife quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-10T22:31:49Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T22:34:22Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:34:57Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:35:20Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:36:38Z aeth: mood: Is Brussels safe? 2016-05-10T22:36:48Z mood: aeth: What do you mean "safe"? 2016-05-10T22:36:58Z aeth: From what little I follow of the news, I thought it was potentially the most dangerous place in Europe right now, i.e. most likely to have terrorist attacks. 2016-05-10T22:36:59Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:37:02Z Mawile: So, I figured out the + sign thingy... In case someone else runs into the issue: 2016-05-10T22:37:17Z Mawile: It wasn't ZS3 having issues with it, it wasn't Drakma having issues with it either, it was PURI unescaping it. 2016-05-10T22:37:27Z Mawile: puri:*reserved-path-characters* did not include "#\+" so it was unescaped, and thus interpreted as a space by Amazon's servers, and not the "+" is actually was. 2016-05-10T22:38:14Z mood: aeth: It's something Didier mentioned from a personal perspective. Doing ELS there shows that life just goes on, we won't be scared 2016-05-10T22:38:17Z Mawile: Oh hey, sorry someone, didn't realize that was a name ping. ^^' 2016-05-10T22:38:25Z mood: And there were attacks recently, but otherwise it's not unsafe at all 2016-05-10T22:38:51Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:39:49Z mood: aeth: If I had to guess I'd say it's now actually much safer than places that haven't seen any recent terrorist attacks, but I have no idea how that works 2016-05-10T22:40:38Z amokr quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-10T22:41:23Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:41:52Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:43:33Z oleo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-10T22:49:25Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-10T22:55:24Z Wizek quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T23:00:48Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:02:54Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-10T23:07:27Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T23:16:14Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-10T23:16:37Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:17:58Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:20:30Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:21:28Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-10T23:23:16Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:24:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-10T23:26:25Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-10T23:28:18Z IPmonger quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.3 - http://znc.in) 2016-05-10T23:32:22Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:33:38Z phoe_krk: Oh look 2016-05-10T23:33:45Z phoe_krk: I wanted to do an interview. 2016-05-10T23:33:57Z phoe_krk: But we ended up discussing lots of Clasp. And it's 1:30 AM now. o_o 2016-05-10T23:34:10Z phoe_krk: And we're still doing it. 2016-05-10T23:35:39Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:35:46Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-10T23:39:48Z warweasle quit (Quit: gotta go) 2016-05-10T23:41:51Z Mawile left #lisp 2016-05-10T23:42:45Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:43:27Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:44:02Z ekinmur quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-10T23:45:04Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-10T23:46:11Z ekinmur joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:47:48Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T23:49:06Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-10T23:50:03Z aeth: For my entity component system (it's a game engine thing), I need to have an entity class that contains components, and I also need to have those components in vectors (or some form of sequence) so I can iterate over them quickly. 2016-05-10T23:50:40Z aeth: Is there going to be a problem if I just use setf twice, first on the vector and then on the entity, using the return value of the first setf to be the set value of the second? 2016-05-10T23:50:55Z trasto quit 2016-05-10T23:51:15Z aeth: so e.g. # is the return value of the setf 2016-05-10T23:51:36Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-10T23:51:55Z phoe_krk: Another time. 2016-05-10T23:51:58Z phoe_krk: Perhaps on Skype. 2016-05-11T00:04:55Z Bike: aeth: why would there be a problem? 2016-05-11T00:07:00Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T00:07:24Z drmeister: phoe_krk: Are you still up? 2016-05-11T00:07:33Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T00:08:04Z drmeister: Can you point me to that tweet you showed to me? I want to send it to my wife. It might get me smooches. 2016-05-11T00:09:19Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T00:12:03Z drmeister: Found it - no problem. 2016-05-11T00:15:01Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-11T00:15:23Z drmeister: I bought my daughter some green amber earrings. 2016-05-11T00:15:44Z drmeister: Wrap your head around that! They are green and they are amber. A paradox! 2016-05-11T00:16:12Z reepca: I think the correct term is "contradiction", no? 2016-05-11T00:16:30Z Bike: they could be made of the material. 2016-05-11T00:16:38Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-11T00:17:44Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T00:17:59Z drmeister: reepca: You are correct - a "contradiction" is the more appropriate term. 2016-05-11T00:19:28Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-11T00:20:46Z drmeister: I thought perhaps why I could handle it was because my brain has special "paradox handling crumple zones" - but really - I was only faced with a simple contradiction. 2016-05-11T00:21:23Z Zhivago: Just a failure of contextualization viz material vs' colour. 2016-05-11T00:21:39Z drmeister: "Green fossilized tree sap" - only available in Poland - I was assured by the very well spoken sales woman. 2016-05-11T00:22:06Z Zhivago: You can go for blue amber next time. :) 2016-05-11T00:22:09Z drmeister: Anyway, it was a great ELS - it's nice to spend time with intelligent friends. 2016-05-11T00:22:44Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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Good you found that. 2016-05-11T01:59:59Z phoe_krk: Everyone - I'm still waiting for approval on two talks. The rest, I'll be uploading tomorrow. 2016-05-11T02:00:26Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:00:33Z phoe_krk: I got 12 recordings, including a single audio one. 2016-05-11T02:01:48Z phoe_krk: I didn't catch everyone - but the good news I have nonzero interviews, which is a pretty good score considering that nobody else I saw was interviewing people. 2016-05-11T02:04:34Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:07:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T02:09:02Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:12:11Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:14:02Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:14:43Z whartung quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T02:15:22Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:22:44Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T02:26:28Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T02:26:36Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-11T02:26:52Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T02:26:57Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:28:38Z loke: phoe_krk: Link me 2016-05-11T02:29:09Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:31:33Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T02:36:43Z reverse_light joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:40:25Z Naraka joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:41:23Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T02:41:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:41:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:45:03Z MetaHertz[wrk] joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:45:44Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T02:48:38Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T02:50:09Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T02:51:00Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-11T02:53:04Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T02:53:08Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T02:56:14Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T02:59:27Z whartung joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:06:02Z modula joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:06:05Z defaultxr quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-11T03:06:05Z modula is now known as defaultxr 2016-05-11T03:11:02Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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This package uses the ACL-COMPAT module for operation on non-Allegro Common Lisp implementations. 2016-05-11T03:37:53Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T03:39:36Z Guest38804 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T03:40:19Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T03:48:15Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T03:49:00Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:49:20Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:51:11Z br0kenman joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:51:16Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:53:58Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:56:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T03:58:23Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T03:58:40Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:00:14Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:01:33Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:02:01Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:03:47Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:04:48Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T04:06:50Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:10:16Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-11T04:10:31Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:14:54Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:19:48Z rjnw joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:20:31Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-11T04:21:37Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-11T04:22:01Z emaczen: when I call reinitialize-instance, how do I get the default-initargs forms to be re-evaluated? 2016-05-11T04:22:51Z Bike: the default method should do that. 2016-05-11T04:23:44Z emaczen: I'm just calling it like (reinitialize-instance obj) -- do I have to add anything? 2016-05-11T04:25:09Z emaczen: Bike: It doesn't seem to work that way 2016-05-11T04:26:03Z Bike: hm, no it doesn't. that's strange. 2016-05-11T04:26:27Z Bike: oh. i misread. reinitialize-instance specifically calls shared-initialize in such a way that initforms aren't used. 2016-05-11T04:26:57Z emaczen: I'm not using initforms -- I'm using default-initargs 2016-05-11T04:31:48Z Bike: hrm... if i'm understanding the clhs correctly, default-initargs don't apply except through make-instance. 2016-05-11T04:32:10Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-11T04:32:45Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:36:03Z Bike: so uh, you'd have to do everything yourself. 2016-05-11T04:36:20Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T04:37:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:45:23Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:47:37Z mrcom__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:47:53Z emaczen: Bike: I switched it to an initform and it worked pretty well 2016-05-11T04:48:33Z emaczen: No it doesn't... my mistake 2016-05-11T04:51:07Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:51:42Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:52:40Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:54:33Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T04:54:40Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:56:36Z Wizek joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:56:56Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T04:59:17Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:00:33Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:01:43Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:02:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:03:02Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-11T05:04:17Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:04:51Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:05:11Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T05:07:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:09:35Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:09:47Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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For now, it's the time for dying twice: first time 'cause it's no sleep and exhaustion, second 'cause they pay me to do Javascript 2016-05-11T05:42:08Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:42:39Z mnoonan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:42:39Z eschulte quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:42:57Z eschulte_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:43:07Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:43:47Z sigjuice: there are quite a few packages called trivial-XXX. is the trivial- prefix some sort of convention? 2016-05-11T05:45:19Z JuanDaugherty: yes 2016-05-11T05:45:33Z JuanDaugherty: it means a minimalist implementation of something 2016-05-11T05:45:39Z jasom quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.1.1) 2016-05-11T05:46:06Z JuanDaugherty: for me trivial-ldap would be the type case 2016-05-11T05:46:51Z JuanDaugherty: usually it's a good starter or element of functionality 2016-05-11T05:47:40Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:49:46Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T05:50:50Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:50:56Z ealfonso: does anyone know of a way to adapt https://github.com/franzinc/imap to sbcl? there's a debian package cl-postoffice which claims to do some magic for non-Allegro implementations, but ... 2016-05-11T05:51:41Z voidlily quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T05:52:00Z JuanDaugherty: but what? cl to cl port is cl to cl port. 2016-05-11T05:53:42Z Bike: why the hell is simple-condition-format-* in a different package... 2016-05-11T05:55:09Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:55:24Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T05:56:47Z Bike: i'm skimming through it and i'm guessing you mostly need to cut out a tiny bit of weird cruft that should be in the standard, and then do sockets and an os interface. 2016-05-11T05:57:36Z sigjuice: ealfonso : did you look at the forks of franzinc/imap? 2016-05-11T05:58:18Z Bike: https://github.com/orivej/post-office ah. yes. 2016-05-11T05:59:20Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:00:19Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T06:01:13Z jackdaniel: is it possible to inject some doclamations before compiling the file with an asdf system? 2016-05-11T06:01:20Z jackdaniel: s/doclamations/declamations/ 2016-05-11T06:11:39Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:13:52Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-05-11T06:16:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:16:29Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:16:32Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:17:49Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:21:01Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:22:02Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:23:54Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T06:24:15Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:25:22Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:25:44Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:26:44Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:28:00Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:29:23Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T06:30:51Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:35:44Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:38:17Z ealfonso: "Clojure meets its goals by: embracing an industry-standard, open platform - the JVM; modernizing a venerable language - Lisp;" so Clojure is "modernizing" Lisp? 2016-05-11T06:38:41Z loke: ealfonso: No. 2016-05-11T06:38:53Z loke: Well, yes. It all depends on what "modernising" means. 2016-05-11T06:40:31Z JuanDaugherty (and others no doubt) facepalms. 2016-05-11T06:40:45Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T06:41:35Z JuanDaugherty: "modernizing" means backing up to and being grateful for the world Mr. Charlie allows you to live and work in 2016-05-11T06:41:46Z loke: ealfonso: "modern" and "good" are mostly orthogonal, and at best only have a very casual relationship. 2016-05-11T06:43:12Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T06:47:15Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:51:27Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T06:51:33Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-11T06:51:45Z StephanLahl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T06:57:00Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:03:54Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T07:03:57Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:04:01Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:04:08Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:05:12Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:06:38Z phoe_work joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:07:20Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:09:47Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T07:13:20Z phoe_work quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:13:23Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T07:15:19Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T07:19:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:19:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:22:06Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:28:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T07:28:55Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:28:58Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T07:30:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:32:57Z Kazlock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T07:33:30Z fiddlerwoaroof joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:35:23Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T07:36:07Z mood: phoe_krk: Don't worry, drmeister's plane is at 4:50 PM 2016-05-11T07:37:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:37:28Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T07:37:28Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:37:46Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T07:38:01Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:40:19Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:40:45Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:41:51Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:42:02Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:42:26Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:42:40Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-11T07:43:48Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:44:03Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:45:16Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:46:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:47:27Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:47:52Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:48:16Z DavidGuru1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:48:29Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:50:11Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T07:50:46Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:54:24Z tsp1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T07:57:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T07:58:09Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T07:59:24Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T08:00:43Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:02:26Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-11T08:02:52Z zadock joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:03:18Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:04:53Z rszeno quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T08:05:17Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:05:52Z _8hzp quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T08:06:05Z _8hzp joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:07:52Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:12:17Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:15:43Z phoe_work joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:20:50Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T08:21:11Z Oladon1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T08:22:26Z _main_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T08:25:25Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T08:26:06Z _main_ is now known as __main__ 2016-05-11T08:30:30Z prxq: from the lisp packages you use, which one do you think has the best docs? 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2016-05-11T10:29:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T10:30:08Z jackdaniel: they aren't copied yet afaik 2016-05-11T10:30:18Z jackdaniel: they will be today 2016-05-11T10:32:42Z python476: thanks a ton 2016-05-11T10:38:01Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T10:39:55Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-11T10:40:44Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-11T10:41:47Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T10:42:39Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T10:44:37Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T10:47:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-11T10:47:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T10:51:41Z atgreen quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T10:52:36Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T10:55:34Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T10:58:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T10:59:53Z MetaHertz[wrk] quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T10:59:59Z krwq quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T11:05:29Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T11:05:56Z sepi: jackdaniel: If you figure out how it works in detail, please tell me. I've never used it myself 2016-05-11T11:06:08Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:08:16Z jackdaniel: sepi: sure 2016-05-11T11:08:30Z jackdaniel: I'm hacking on it right now, but I have a train in ~1h, so I'll probably get back to it later 2016-05-11T11:09:27Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:10:04Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:11:45Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:14:04Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T11:14:33Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:23:14Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:25:41Z yvm quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T11:28:48Z lisp109 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:31:59Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:32:54Z lisp109 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:33:01Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:34:37Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T11:39:23Z prion_ quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-11T11:39:27Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:39:48Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:40:03Z fluter quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:43:18Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:43:24Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:43:32Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:49:34Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T11:53:56Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:54:03Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:55:59Z jackdaniel: sepi: you basically add :around-compile (lambda (thunk) (pre-stuff) (funcall thunk) (post-stuff)) at the desired level like here http://codepad.org/YkiaKkuq . It can't be used for my purposes though 2016-05-11T11:56:11Z jackdaniel: I wanted to inject the (declaim …) at the top of the file 2016-05-11T11:56:26Z jackdaniel: but it's definetely useful 2016-05-11T11:59:08Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T11:59:40Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T11:59:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:02:36Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:03:44Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:04:02Z yvm joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:04:15Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:06:54Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:07:00Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:07:35Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:07:43Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:08:47Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:09:30Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:10:08Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:10:29Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:10:47Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-11T12:11:08Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:11:40Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:12:31Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-11T12:12:33Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:12:47Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:12:50Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2) 2016-05-11T12:13:01Z phoe_work quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-11T12:13:14Z papachan` is now known as papachan 2016-05-11T12:13:16Z Xach: jackdaniel: I'm having unicode problems. my software is bad. i'll check it out soon. 2016-05-11T12:13:21Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-11T12:13:29Z rszeno quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:14:00Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T12:14:00Z jackdaniel: Xach: sure, no hurry. Thanks. 2016-05-11T12:14:13Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:14:47Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:15:35Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-11T12:15:51Z Wizek_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:16:23Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:17:43Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-11T12:17:44Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:17:56Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:18:35Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:19:41Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-11T12:20:28Z Xach wonders how he can get a backtrace in allegro cl with just a little bit of code 2016-05-11T12:21:07Z Xach: oh, that's easy enough 2016-05-11T12:21:08Z Xach tries it 2016-05-11T12:21:22Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:21:49Z Nuri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:23:07Z novavis quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-11T12:23:33Z mj12` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-11T12:23:47Z novavis joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:24:34Z Xach: beauty 2016-05-11T12:24:44Z Xach: tpl.debug:zoom is the thing i used. 2016-05-11T12:27:15Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:27:23Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:30:10Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-11T12:31:16Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:32:39Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:36:20Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:37:23Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T12:38:33Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:39:01Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:43:12Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:43:46Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:44:10Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:44:52Z lisbeth joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:45:25Z lisbeth: What's a function that takes a string and executes it as a shell command? 2016-05-11T12:45:57Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:46:10Z Xach: lisbeth: it differs from lisp to lisp. uiop:run-program papers over the differences. 2016-05-11T12:46:29Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:47:53Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:49:51Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:51:59Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:54:15Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T12:55:44Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-05-11T12:58:40Z Oladon joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:01:46Z Wasdaf: lisbeth: I noticed that you asked something in #stumpwm, so in case you want to execute a shell command in stumpwm, that can be done with RUN-SHELL-COMMAND. 2016-05-11T13:02:38Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:02:52Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:03:10Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:04:30Z benkard joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:05:41Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:05:47Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:06:01Z benkard quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T13:08:07Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:10:37Z phoe_krk: mood: PM. This is so much better. Thanks. 2016-05-11T13:10:45Z Jonsky: Wow, window manager written in CL! This is cool! 2016-05-11T13:11:34Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-11T13:12:03Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T13:12:25Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-11T13:12:41Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:14:16Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:14:37Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:14:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T13:15:17Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:16:11Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:16:12Z didi: So, is there a technique to reduce the memory consumption of strings? (room) tells me I am using ~ 1 GB of RAM to hold "simple-character-string objects". 2016-05-11T13:16:29Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:20:10Z Xach: didi: in which implementation? 2016-05-11T13:20:18Z didi: Xach: SBCL. 2016-05-11T13:20:54Z JuanDaugherty: store them outside the image 2016-05-11T13:20:58Z JuanDaugherty: with a hash 2016-05-11T13:21:26Z Xach: didi: it normally uses 32 bits to store each character. strings of base-char use 8 bits per character. 2016-05-11T13:21:45Z Xach: didi: I hope it does not seem rude, but 1GB is not a very large amount in these modern times, too... 2016-05-11T13:21:47Z didi: JuanDaugherty: I actually just loaded them from the disk. But this is an interesting idea. Thank you. 2016-05-11T13:22:11Z JuanDaugherty: (and I meant in RAM) 2016-05-11T13:22:41Z spacebat1: didi: for some purposes, using symbols instead of strings would make sense 2016-05-11T13:22:51Z didi: Xach: Oh, it is not rude. But it is a problem to me. I have 8 GB of RAM but as I go on to massage the data I end up exhausting the heap. 2016-05-11T13:23:13Z didi: spacebat1: Thank you. 2016-05-11T13:23:39Z Xach: didi: ah. well, base-chars may be an option if exotic characters like ö are not needed. 2016-05-11T13:23:48Z JuanDaugherty: 8 gb is the 640K of today 2016-05-11T13:23:50Z didi: Xach: Heh, unfortunately they are. 2016-05-11T13:23:55Z spacebat1: also substrings can share structure with their parents - cl-ppcre functions take a sharedp argument to this end 2016-05-11T13:24:01Z didi: JuanDaugherty: :-P 2016-05-11T13:24:17Z didi: spacebat1: Uh, interesting. 2016-05-11T13:24:28Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:25:19Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:27:29Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:28:03Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:31:47Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-11T13:32:53Z flash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T13:35:23Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:36:42Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:37:49Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:38:17Z flash- joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:39:02Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:40:10Z tsp1 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:45:38Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:46:56Z didi: Hum. What if I hold them as raw bytes? I can convert them back to strings whatever I need them and I know they are UTF-8 encoded with the occasional two bytes character. I wonder the performance impact. 2016-05-11T13:47:16Z Xach: didi: what are you doing with the data? 2016-05-11T13:48:23Z didi: Xach: Lots of things. These strings are inside structs (which I declared as vectors actually). Each struct is like an entry of a database. I turn this database into graphs, most of the time. 2016-05-11T13:50:28Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:51:04Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:51:25Z ramky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T13:51:29Z didi: This representation is very convenient as I can just `read' it from disk. 2016-05-11T13:51:33Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:52:06Z Xach: ohh 2016-05-11T13:53:31Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:54:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:54:54Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:56:53Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:56:54Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-11T13:57:18Z gilez is now known as Guest13070 2016-05-11T13:58:41Z oGMo quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2016-05-11T13:58:41Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T13:59:43Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:00:33Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:04:18Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:04:53Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:06:32Z marsjaninzmarsa quit (Quit: ZNC 1.7.x-git-487-cbf5c38 - http://znc.in) 2016-05-11T14:06:46Z didi: :-) So my day starts with starting SBCL, loading my system, issuing (load-entries) and *bam*, I am ready to crunch some data. 2016-05-11T14:07:43Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:07:50Z Denommus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T14:08:26Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:08:58Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:08:59Z marsjaninzmarsa joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:10:03Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:10:28Z ggole__ is now known as ggole 2016-05-11T14:16:39Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-11T14:18:33Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:20:21Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:21:00Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:21:40Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:21:46Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-11T14:23:51Z lisbeth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:24:54Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:27:32Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:31:16Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:39:46Z Wizek_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:42:09Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:42:20Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T14:47:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:48:04Z eschulte_: so, I find myself adding (put 'foo 'lisp-indent-function 1) for many many functions in my .emacs? Does anyone know of a better way to allow tighter indentation w/Emacs? 2016-05-11T14:48:35Z drdo quit (Quit: :O) 2016-05-11T14:49:05Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:50:43Z lisbeth joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:52:28Z z0d: eschulte_: I don't know a better way 2016-05-11T14:52:48Z norserob_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:53:03Z didi: eschulte_: Maybe (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function)? 2016-05-11T14:53:26Z norserob quit 2016-05-11T14:54:58Z norserob_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T14:55:11Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:56:45Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-05-11T14:57:49Z eschulte_: didi: I think that's already being used 2016-05-11T14:58:04Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-11T14:58:22Z eschulte_: probably I just need to write a helper function to more quickly set the lisp-indent-function number... 2016-05-11T15:01:19Z Xach: eschulte_: is it that you don't like conventional indentation, or is it getting it wrong for a lot of cases? 2016-05-11T15:01:42Z didi: eschulte_: I have https://paste.debian.net/hidden/4c133935 to "fix" some of the indentation. 2016-05-11T15:02:24Z didi: eschulte_: But this is more to indent elisp, I guess. 2016-05-11T15:02:33Z hitecnologys: Greetings, #lisp. It's been a while since I last checked on what's going on here. I've been working on a small library in my spare time to gather all the good stuff I've been using for working with databases into one usable building block. RFC https://github.com/HiTECNOLOGYs/steampunk 2016-05-11T15:03:51Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:04:23Z eschulte_: Xach: I often want second and third arguments pushed further left when they're on a new line, instead of starting indented way out right (which can make writing within 80 columns pretty difficult) 2016-05-11T15:04:45Z Xach: Ok. I can't help, sorry. I prefer them to be aligned. 2016-05-11T15:05:25Z eschulte_: maybe I should just suck it up and keep them aligned and/or try to avoid such deep nesting 2016-05-11T15:05:53Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T15:06:24Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:13:53Z rpg quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T15:14:01Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:16:13Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:16:51Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:17:39Z rpg: eschulte_: Isn't slime-indentation supposed to enable emacs to ask CL how to indent a form? I could never figure it out exactly, but the problem with cl-indent on the emacs lisp side is that it can't "see" packages. 2016-05-11T15:19:24Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:24:51Z Zotan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T15:25:16Z Zotan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:26:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:26:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:29:07Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:32:46Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:32:52Z norserob joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:33:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:33:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T15:33:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:34:25Z norserob quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T15:35:14Z norserob joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:35:20Z lisbeth quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T15:35:49Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:36:42Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T15:37:24Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:38:05Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:40:04Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:40:18Z br0kenman quit (Quit: q) 2016-05-11T15:45:59Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:46:52Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T15:51:49Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:54:04Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-11T15:57:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T15:59:13Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:00:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:00:14Z phoe_krk: didi: are you Didier? 2016-05-11T16:03:16Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:06:46Z jaerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:06:54Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:08:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:09:45Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:09:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:10:56Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:13:22Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T16:14:12Z Wizek_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:14:16Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:15:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:18:21Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:18:48Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:19:24Z didi: phoe_krk: I am not. 2016-05-11T16:22:56Z nate_c joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:23:56Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:24:20Z phoe_krk: didi: it was worth a try. xD Thanks. 2016-05-11T16:24:35Z didi: phoe_krk: Hehe. Sorry to disappoint you. :-( 2016-05-11T16:25:01Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:25:35Z andrei-n: What is the best html parser for common lisp? 2016-05-11T16:28:03Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:28:39Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:28:39Z DavidGuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T16:29:15Z Munksgaard quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-11T16:30:03Z phoe_krk: andrei-n: TeMPOraL should be able to help you with this. 2016-05-11T16:30:18Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:30:19Z phoe_krk: He did a talk about webscraping and munching HTML with CL. 2016-05-11T16:32:13Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:33:14Z w37 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T16:33:29Z fitzsim quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:34:21Z fitzsim joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:35:45Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T16:38:34Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:40:11Z sepi: jackdaniel: why can't you declaim? I also wantet to use it to set per file optimization levels maybe 2016-05-11T16:40:33Z sepi: andrei-n: https://github.com/tshatrov/webgunk/ I' 2016-05-11T16:41:25Z sepi: m using this. It's quite good except for broken xhtml with xml:attribute tags without the correct xmlns declared. I had to preprocess the raw html to remove the xml: ns. 2016-05-11T16:41:45Z sepi: It's using cxml I think 2016-05-11T16:44:52Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-11T16:44:54Z dat_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:45:22Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:46:11Z ejbs joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:47:36Z vydd__ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:48:08Z jackdaniel: sepi: hm, because declaim must be a toplevel form of the file, while this additional actions are outside of it (unless I don't understand the whole declamation process – very likely) 2016-05-11T16:48:17Z vydd_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T16:48:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:48:28Z jackdaniel: so, it's like (progn (declaim …) (compile-file #P"that-file")) 2016-05-11T16:49:12Z jackdaniel: I've verified, that the performance with the declamation and without it (provided with this asdf approach) doesn't affect the cl-bench benchmarks performance, so either compiler is "smart enough", or it really it has no effect 2016-05-11T16:49:31Z jackdaniel: s/really it/really/ 2016-05-11T16:49:41Z vydd__ is now known as vydd_ 2016-05-11T16:50:57Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:51:15Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-11T16:51:16Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T16:51:16Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:52:00Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T16:52:13Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:52:42Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:55:35Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:57:35Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T16:58:52Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T16:59:42Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:00:06Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-11T17:00:33Z d4ryus is now known as Guest7677 2016-05-11T17:00:33Z Guest7677 quit (Killed (hitchcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-11T17:00:33Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:03:58Z katco joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:04:02Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:04:46Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-11T17:05:08Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:05:43Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T17:06:42Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:07:16Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:08:34Z flash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:10:12Z jbakid quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T17:12:42Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:13:07Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:15:08Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:16:58Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:22:30Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:22:53Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:24:37Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:26:12Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:26:17Z ggole quit 2016-05-11T17:26:42Z oGMo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:28:10Z Naraka joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:29:59Z oGMo_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T17:31:28Z rjnw joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:33:45Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:33:46Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:33:56Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:35:19Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:36:39Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:40:16Z oGMo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:44:19Z oGMo_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T17:45:09Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:45:34Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:45:55Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:46:03Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:47:11Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:49:10Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:51:19Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:53:15Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T17:54:16Z Don_John joined #lisp 2016-05-11T17:54:19Z Don_John quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T17:56:49Z jackdaniel: hey, regarding the CL job in bukarest, here's the link to the job description turtleware.eu/static/job-romania.txt 2016-05-11T17:57:27Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-05-11T18:00:36Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T18:02:50Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:03:12Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:04:03Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T18:04:28Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:05:00Z oGMo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:05:46Z papachan: wassup 2016-05-11T18:06:05Z papachan: is there any youtube videos from krakow? 2016-05-11T18:06:55Z nprorepti quit (Quit: .) 2016-05-11T18:07:03Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T18:07:40Z didi: andrei-n: If you could share your findings, it would be great. :-) 2016-05-11T18:10:47Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:11:16Z oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 2016-05-11T18:11:30Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T18:11:30Z andrei-n: What findings? 2016-05-11T18:11:41Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:11:42Z coyo quit 2016-05-11T18:12:27Z didi: andrei-n: On parsing HTML. 2016-05-11T18:12:53Z warweasle: Is there a fast (performance wise) way to turn a positive integer into a bit vector? 2016-05-11T18:13:21Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:13:43Z didi: warweasle: Are you aware of CL logic functions? 2016-05-11T18:13:57Z didi: You can even investigate single bits. 2016-05-11T18:13:57Z Bike: i don't think there is. 2016-05-11T18:14:03Z warweasle: didi: Yes, but I need to transpose random bits. 2016-05-11T18:14:12Z warweasle: Bike: Ok, thanks. 2016-05-11T18:14:19Z jasom: warweasle: rotatef 2016-05-11T18:14:41Z andrei-n: didi, I only found out that the closure-html package was not very practical because it takes too long to load... Now I'm trying cl-html-parse... Hope it's better. 2016-05-11T18:16:24Z jasom: warweasle: (let ((x #xf0)) (rotatef (ldb (byte 1 4) x) (ldb (byte 1 0) x)) x) ; => #xE1 2016-05-11T18:17:03Z jasom: warweasle: that's probably more readable with proper line-breaks and indentation, but you get the idea? 2016-05-11T18:17:33Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:18:50Z jasom: see also: Generalized References are awesome 2016-05-11T18:19:21Z warweasle: Hmmm 2016-05-11T18:20:27Z didi: andrei-n: Cool. 2016-05-11T18:20:54Z jasom: in general, to swap bits N and M in integer I: (rotatef (ldb (byte 1 N) I) (ldb (byte 1 M) I)) 2016-05-11T18:21:16Z josemanuel joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:21:45Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T18:22:57Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:24:54Z josemanuel quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T18:24:55Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:25:25Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:26:32Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T18:27:36Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:28:46Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T18:31:53Z TDT quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T18:32:48Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T18:35:47Z Moosef joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:42:13Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T18:47:24Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T18:50:42Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-11T18:55:12Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T18:57:18Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:00:35Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:01:20Z jfcc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:04:32Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:04:37Z ejbs: When compiling a system and an error is signalled, is there an easy way to find out where the error occured? I'm using SBCL 2016-05-11T19:05:32Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:06:09Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:06:23Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:07:03Z jfcc: I'm trying to print every element of a 2D list. Here's what I have so far: 2016-05-11T19:07:03Z jfcc: (dolist (i some-lisp) (dolist (j i) (print j))) 2016-05-11T19:07:03Z jfcc: This prints things like "QUOTE (1 2 3)" 2016-05-11T19:07:03Z jfcc: It works just fine on a 1D list, though. 2016-05-11T19:07:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: jfcc: Are you passing a literal list into your function? 2016-05-11T19:08:06Z jfcc: some-list is a variable, if that's what you mean 2016-05-11T19:08:23Z malbertife_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:08:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: What is the value of some-list? 2016-05-11T19:09:03Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:09:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: '('(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) is not what you want 2016-05-11T19:09:45Z jfcc: damn 2016-05-11T19:09:49Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:09:55Z jfcc: I was just about to send exactly that 2016-05-11T19:10:06Z ejbs: jfcc: Try (list (list 1 2 3) (list 4 5 6)) 2016-05-11T19:10:07Z jfcc: What do I want then? 2016-05-11T19:10:16Z jfcc: Ok, thanks 2016-05-11T19:10:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: That's double quoting. So the quoting gets quoted. 2016-05-11T19:10:25Z Bike: you don't need to quote things excessively 2016-05-11T19:10:45Z Bike: "you don't "need" to things excessively" 2016-05-11T19:11:26Z Petit_Dejeuner: pft 2016-05-11T19:12:01Z didi: *The variable NEED is unbound.* 2016-05-11T19:12:09Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:12:19Z phoe_krk: "you don't \"need\" to things excessively" 2016-05-11T19:13:52Z jasom: ejbs: you mean a system being loaded with asdf? Use :verbose t 2016-05-11T19:14:07Z jasom: ejbs: during development I mainly do a C-c C-k from slime which will jump right to the error. 2016-05-11T19:14:28Z didi uses ,load-system 2016-05-11T19:14:42Z jasom: didi: is that sly only or does slime have it too? 2016-05-11T19:14:59Z didi: jasom: This is SLIME. I don't know sly. 2016-05-11T19:15:12Z Petit_Dejeuner: (let ((|「«list»」| "'‘“”’")) (format t "『Don't quote me on this!』") 2016-05-11T19:15:12Z jasom: oh cool. For some reason my brain had you in the "uses sly" bucket 2016-05-11T19:15:34Z didi: How dare you... 2016-05-11T19:15:46Z didi: :-P 2016-05-11T19:15:55Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: you're missing „ 2016-05-11T19:15:57Z ejbs: jasom: Thanks! 2016-05-11T19:16:13Z ejbs: Haha, I re-defined CL:READ but forget that the arg-list isn't just the stream.. 2016-05-11T19:16:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: jasom: I included all the important ones ;) 2016-05-11T19:16:17Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:16:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: Is that german? 2016-05-11T19:16:42Z jasom: also the danish way that is backwards from the french way 2016-05-11T19:16:55Z Petit_Dejeuner: You guys do what you want. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark 2016-05-11T19:17:13Z jasom: Petit_Dejeuner: eastern european and german IIRC 2016-05-11T19:17:56Z jasom: also hebrew, I suppose 2016-05-11T19:18:21Z ejbs: jasom: Nah, that didn't help 2016-05-11T19:18:29Z Petit_Dejeuner: I wish we'd stick to either easterneuro, asian, or angle brackets. 2016-05-11T19:18:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: Double and single quotes should be reserved for programming languages. 2016-05-11T19:18:47Z ejbs: I really need the line (I only get file) cuz it's an errant READ call and that file is full of READ 2016-05-11T19:19:12Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-11T19:19:42Z oGMo quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2016-05-11T19:20:48Z jasom: it should give you the toplevel form at least 2016-05-11T19:21:30Z jasom: If you're in slime, try ,load-system 2016-05-11T19:24:08Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:24:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:24:58Z ejbs: jasom: Yeah, that'ss what I'd think too. I'm gonna look thru the git commits cuz I used to b able to compile this smoothly 2016-05-11T19:27:00Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:27:25Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-11T19:29:17Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-11T19:30:29Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:32:40Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:33:42Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:33:50Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T19:39:48Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T19:41:16Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T19:41:47Z ejbs quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T19:42:06Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:44:20Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:44:36Z BitPuffin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T19:45:25Z pbgc quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T19:46:33Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T19:50:25Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:50:43Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:51:08Z oGMo joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:56:45Z arbv quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.5.1) 2016-05-11T19:57:24Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-11T19:59:31Z warweasle quit (Quit: going) 2016-05-11T20:01:36Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:03:11Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:03:58Z jfcc quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:04:18Z briantrice quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T20:05:18Z dyelar quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T20:05:30Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:05:51Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:05:53Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-11T20:07:07Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:07:46Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:10:43Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:15:35Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T20:16:12Z norserob: hi, I am using cl-sdl2, and sometimes I get an error message which is just printed to standard output or standard error without being detected. Can I detect the message somehow? 2016-05-11T20:16:35Z phoe_krk: norserob: Please give us examples! 2016-05-11T20:16:58Z kenanb joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:17:05Z norserob: The consequence is that images are not displayed by sdl, but everything seems normal except for that error message. 2016-05-11T20:17:46Z phoe_krk: It looks like an error that's incorrectly wrapped by CL-SDL and not turned into a CL condition. (If CL-SDL2 actually does such wrapping, I mean; I don't know the library well.) 2016-05-11T20:19:53Z norserob: phoe_krk: yes, normally errors are caught by cl-sdl, but here there is no error reported I think, just a message written, so my program does not know nothing has really been rendered to screen. If I could detect it I could retry, since it fails only occasionally at first rendering after init. 2016-05-11T20:21:15Z norserob: so perhaps I could monitor *standard-output* to look for the specific error message (always the same) 2016-05-11T20:21:51Z phoe_krk: norserob: Yes. 2016-05-11T20:21:56Z phoe_krk: Please try to pinpoint and reproduce the bug. 2016-05-11T20:22:12Z phoe_krk: You could TRACE the CL functions you suspect to cause this. 2016-05-11T20:22:24Z phoe_krk: And actually use the debugger to find the proper one. 2016-05-11T20:22:29Z phoe_krk: Can you reproduce the bug on your machine? 2016-05-11T20:23:03Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:24:22Z norserob: Yes, I can reproduce on a machine running Wayland. In X11 ans OSX it works. It is actually a wayland error message being printed. I have fixed a coule of other problems, this is the one remaining. It happens in the sdl event loop, first thing after sdl init. But not every time. 2016-05-11T20:24:52Z phoe_krk: norserob: huh. It might actually be a bug in SDL itself, I think. 2016-05-11T20:25:21Z phoe_krk: Is the SDL event loop anyhow influenced by Common Lisp code calling any of its functions? 2016-05-11T20:25:41Z phoe_krk: I mean - can you reproduce the bug without any Lisp? 2016-05-11T20:25:58Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T20:26:23Z norserob: phoe_krk: could be, yes. I made a small C program doing a similar setup, could not get the same problem there though, so that is why I suspect cl-sdl2. Another problem I had was both in Lisp and C,that was an SDL bug. 2016-05-11T20:27:40Z norserob: phoe_krk: guess I should go through the functions calld by cl-sdl2 to see if things are called differently than from C. 2016-05-11T20:29:22Z mood: norserob: Could you perhaps post the error? Might be more helpful than making us guess 2016-05-11T20:29:54Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:30:12Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:31:02Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T20:32:18Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T20:32:38Z norserob: mood: the error is "wl_display@1: error 0: invalid object 15" 2016-05-11T20:33:37Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:33:41Z phoe_krk: Descriptive error messages FTW! 2016-05-11T20:33:52Z norserob: mood: I found it in the wayland source code, not sure exactly what object it does not find. Perhaps the main window. I've tried sleeping a while before starting sdl, no good. 2016-05-11T20:34:50Z mood: You could try to single-step through cl-sdl2, to find out when the error occurs 2016-05-11T20:35:15Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:36:29Z norserob: mood: yes, that it a good idea. will try that. 2016-05-11T20:39:37Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:40:43Z phoe_krk: Night, #parens. 2016-05-11T20:40:56Z mood: phoe_krk: Good night! 2016-05-11T20:41:39Z phoe_krk: mood: knock knock. 2016-05-11T20:41:45Z mood: phoe_krk: Who's there? 2016-05-11T20:41:48Z phoe_krk: Python. 2016-05-11T20:41:48Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T20:42:09Z mood: phoe_krk: :) 2016-05-11T20:42:09Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:42:12Z phoe_krk: :P 2016-05-11T20:42:33Z phoe_krk: mood: knock knock. 2016-05-11T20:43:07Z mood: phoe_krk: Who's there? 2016-05-11T20:43:21Z phoe_krk: Ailttele dnai nystsme. 2016-05-11T20:43:30Z mood: (this is #lispcafe material) 2016-05-11T20:43:33Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:43:37Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:43:40Z jaerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:43:48Z phoe_krk: Yes. I'm just having a weird moment, too tired to be serious, too awake to be asleep. 2016-05-11T20:43:51Z phoe_krk: Night! 2016-05-11T20:44:13Z dwchandler: python who? 2016-05-11T20:44:23Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T20:44:25Z phoe_krk: Just Python. 2016-05-11T20:45:13Z dwchandler: why did the chicken scheme cross the road? 2016-05-11T20:45:25Z mood: To get to #lispcafe 2016-05-11T20:45:26Z Princess17b29a joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:45:49Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:46:23Z Nuri quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T20:47:18Z kenanb left #lisp 2016-05-11T20:47:18Z arbv left #lisp 2016-05-11T20:49:06Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:54:08Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:54:51Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T20:57:50Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:58:13Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:58:14Z RainBowww joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:59:32Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T20:59:59Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:03:03Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:05:17Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:06:05Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:06:27Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:08:11Z phoe_krk: drmeister: a note about speeding up Clasp builts. Is it possible to get a multithreaded make for Clasp? Right now I can see that the clang-linux.compile.c++.without-pth only utilizes one logical core. And I have four of them available. 2016-05-11T21:08:17Z phoe_krk: s/builts/builds/ 2016-05-11T21:09:06Z l1x quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:09:06Z lancetw quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:10:17Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:10:43Z lancetw joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:11:18Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:11:39Z Guest38804 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:13:32Z RainBowww quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-11T21:17:32Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:18:53Z zeissoctopus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T21:21:43Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-11T21:23:01Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:23:17Z p_l: ... port bazelisp to Clasp? 2016-05-11T21:25:54Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:27:06Z Guest13070 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:28:43Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:35:31Z jathd quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-11T21:35:46Z jathd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:38:43Z jathd quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-11T21:39:34Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-11T21:40:56Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:42:28Z akkad: how hard is it to build clasp these days/? 2016-05-11T21:42:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:42:48Z mood: akkad: Too hard still, sadly 2016-05-11T21:43:10Z mood: And the newest development version depends on fixes to LLVM that are just days old 2016-05-11T21:44:07Z mood: If you use externals-clasp it should all just work, but distro packages tend to cause version problems 2016-05-11T21:44:31Z mood: (Though there appears to currently be a linking problem when using externals-clasp on some machines) 2016-05-11T21:45:24Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:48:59Z akkad: k, will await less radioactivity 2016-05-11T21:49:03Z akkad: thanks 2016-05-11T21:50:14Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:50:28Z mood: akkad: Do note that people using it and/or contributing are very much appreciated :) 2016-05-11T21:50:59Z akkad: k. noted 2016-05-11T21:55:13Z akkad: You need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system correctly. not sure why I keep running into this. 2016-05-11T21:55:38Z mood: Because you don't have ASDF >= 3.1 :) 2016-05-11T21:56:30Z Subfusc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T21:57:13Z didi: How can I know the version of ASDF I am running? 2016-05-11T21:57:38Z mood: didi: Call (asdf:asdf-version) 2016-05-11T21:57:46Z didi: mood: Thank you. 2016-05-11T21:58:26Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T21:59:04Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2016-05-11T22:00:30Z akkad: (ql:quickload :asdf-package-system);; is this the ql way? 2016-05-11T22:02:06Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:02:16Z mood: akkad: No, asdf-package-system is something else 2016-05-11T22:02:48Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:02:51Z Subfusc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:03:16Z akkad: k 2016-05-11T22:04:20Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:04:29Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:04:48Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:06:11Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:06:12Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:07:58Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:08:41Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:09:00Z reepca: Silly question... when would it make sense to make a class with no slots? 2016-05-11T22:09:52Z pavelpenev quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T22:10:11Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:10:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:11:23Z varjagg: could still be useful as e.g. a mixin 2016-05-11T22:12:02Z isoraqathedh: Or maybe it's a class that just combines two or more other classes. 2016-05-11T22:12:35Z reepca: So it would just be used for the additional type information to be specialized on? 2016-05-11T22:14:08Z Bike: additional method specialization, yes 2016-05-11T22:15:54Z isoraqathedh: One of the surprises I had with CLOS is that specialisations can only work on classes and not an arbitrary typespec. 2016-05-11T22:16:12Z isoraqathedh: Well, not so much surprise but rather "hm, will this work?" answered with "no". 2016-05-11T22:16:36Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:17:03Z reepca: I can't say I've thought of that question myself, but hearing it now it seems like a reasonable thought 2016-05-11T22:19:46Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:22:38Z nate_c quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T22:25:21Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:25:33Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:28:16Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:30:33Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:31:31Z jathd joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:33:24Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:35:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T22:35:24Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:35:43Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-11T22:37:28Z bullets: I don't think I understand macros 2016-05-11T22:37:58Z White_Flame: they're a function that returns source code, that don't run at "runtime", but rather at "compile time" 2016-05-11T22:38:06Z bullets: I hear all this praise for macros but rarely do I feel a need to write a macro, and they're usually mere trivialities, like (repeat n ...) 2016-05-11T22:39:19Z White_Flame: basically, macros allow people who desire better abstraction to get there 2016-05-11T22:39:36Z White_Flame: so if you're not abstracting above the level of the source code itself, you'll not see much use for them 2016-05-11T22:40:13Z bullets: yeah, maybe 2016-05-11T22:40:28Z White_Flame: I think (with-... ) macros are one of the first ones to write that tend to show abstractions better 2016-05-11T22:40:29Z bullets: maybe all my programs so far have been too simple to deserve a macro 2016-05-11T22:42:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:42:58Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T22:42:58Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:43:36Z bullets: or I am too used to the limitations of languages in general 2016-05-11T22:43:47Z bullets: where do you guys usually use macros? 2016-05-11T22:45:31Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:45:35Z didi: bullets: I've only written very simple `with' macros to get rid of resources that wouldn't go away if I didn't explicitly did it myself. 2016-05-11T22:45:40Z White_Flame: um, whenever I want to do something that functions can't really pull off :-P 2016-05-11T22:46:14Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:46:47Z bullets: hm, neither sound as exciting as they make them sound 2016-05-11T22:47:00Z bullets: I might be missing something here. 2016-05-11T22:47:06Z White_Flame: the excitement is about getting what's in your head into the code 2016-05-11T22:47:14Z Bike: nothing in programming is exciting 2016-05-11T22:47:25Z White_Flame: but once you're deep in Lisp, it's just normal programming 2016-05-11T22:47:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:48:48Z White_Flame: but it makes it really, really difficult to then move to other languages that don't have macros 2016-05-11T22:49:04Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-11T22:49:34Z bullets: what's funny is that I've done some stuff in perl and thought "gee I could use a macro here" 2016-05-11T22:49:56Z Josh2: Hi :P 2016-05-11T22:50:20Z didi: bullets: Word is that "On Lisp" is a good book about macros. 2016-05-11T22:50:46Z bullets: yeah... I am trying to read it 2016-05-11T22:51:03Z bullets: but he keeps praising macros and I am yet to see a macro 2016-05-11T22:51:19Z didi: I see. 2016-05-11T22:51:21Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)) 2016-05-11T22:51:23Z bullets: it kinda gets annoying but I'll keep on 2016-05-11T22:51:28Z didi: I haven't read it. 2016-05-11T22:51:49Z didi: s/haven't/didn't 2016-05-11T22:52:30Z bullets: I'll just keep lisping and see if I get it 2016-05-11T22:52:54Z bullets: Actually the part that intrigues me the most about lisp is the system itself 2016-05-11T22:53:04Z bullets: but I keep hearing 'macros macros macros' 2016-05-11T22:53:25Z didi: bullets: From lispers? 2016-05-11T22:53:49Z bullets: yes 2016-05-11T22:53:53Z didi: Interesting. 2016-05-11T22:54:11Z bullets: everywhere, it's macros, the huge flag for why lisp is the greatest thing ever 2016-05-11T22:54:16Z bullets: lol 2016-05-11T22:54:33Z didi: This is not my experience at all. 2016-05-11T22:54:42Z bullets: I mean I don't need to be convinced to use lisp but I feel dumb for not understanding what's all teh hype with macros 2016-05-11T22:55:00Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-11T22:55:12Z bullets: I need to do stuff, bbl 2016-05-11T22:55:33Z Josh2: I've been using Lisp for a few months, I don't get macro's haha 2016-05-11T23:00:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:02:07Z tippenein quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:03:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:03:16Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-11T23:03:16Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:03:40Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T23:04:09Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:10:51Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T23:10:56Z jasom: Having good metaprogramming in your language is like having seatbelts or antilock breaks in your car. Most of the time you don't really notice it, but when you do need it, you're really glad to have it. 2016-05-11T23:11:01Z PuercoPop: bullets: it much more common to use macros than to write them. One example is blackbird's alet/aif/a* (a stands for async) macros so that one writes in the 'normal' way and it rewrites it a CPS way for you http://orthecreedence.github.io/blackbird/#nicer-syntax 2016-05-11T23:12:31Z bullets: PuercoPop: thanks, I'll give it a read 2016-05-11T23:13:17Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-11T23:14:14Z froggey quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:14:16Z cyraxjoe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T23:14:51Z PuercoPop: bullets: but in general if you are learning lisp, don't focus on macros. It has a lot of other nice features. 2016-05-11T23:15:10Z froggey joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:15:25Z cyraxjoe joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:19:40Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:24:56Z bullets: I'll listen to you 2016-05-11T23:26:00Z dwchandler: There will be time later :) 2016-05-11T23:26:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-11T23:26:51Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:28:47Z aeth: bullets: Generally you want to use a macro only when you're doing something that fits a pattern, like when you want to make something similar to dolist (do-foo) or when you want to hide boilerplate code that often requires unwind-protect (with-foo) 2016-05-11T23:28:56Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T23:29:15Z aeth: Or when you're creating something where deffoo or define-foo might make sense. 2016-05-11T23:29:44Z aeth: So it's mostly useful in large applications or in libraries to keep things short 2016-05-11T23:30:23Z aeth: You don't have to use macros to get concise code, you can also use higher order functions. Compare mapcar with dolist 2016-05-11T23:31:24Z reepca: One good example I saw was in cl-sdl2, where they had a with-event-loop macro that let you just specify forms to execute for different events like key presses, mouse clicks, idle, etc. It would then handle the actual logic of dispatching the events internally. 2016-05-11T23:31:46Z aeth: So basically, macros are just another tool to use when common patterns show up in order to encourage code sharing, etc., just like objects in OOP. 2016-05-11T23:32:06Z aeth: Except unlike object classes, you're mostly using macros rather than defining your own. 2016-05-11T23:33:35Z aeth: If you want to compare the macro approach to the OOP approach, you can compare how cl-sdl2 handles events in with-event-loop to how sdl2kit handles events in its main-loop-function 2016-05-11T23:33:50Z aeth: Although I'm not quite sure why main-loop-function doesn't use with-event-loop 2016-05-11T23:34:01Z aeth: oGMo: ^ 2016-05-11T23:34:27Z oGMo: because it needs to handle the event loop differently 2016-05-11T23:35:11Z watersoul_ joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:36:49Z oGMo: "handle it for my code" is what with-event-loop was written for, and fairly long before sdl2kit came to be 2016-05-11T23:37:02Z watersoul quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-11T23:37:17Z bullets: aeth: ssso the way you're saying it sounds like a natural extension to programming 2016-05-11T23:37:41Z oGMo: sdl2kit is meant to handle _everyone's_ application window, handle idle-render or not, and rarely quit. it's not a complicated piece of code either way 2016-05-11T23:37:44Z bullets: kind of like what one does with higher order functions (as you said so yourself) 2016-05-11T23:38:05Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:38:13Z bullets: like that event handling code.... 2016-05-11T23:38:41Z aeth: bullets: It's sort of like writing a mini-compiler. If you macroexpand-1 the built in do macro in sbcl, you can see that it expands to gotos jumping to labels (using Lisp's built in TAGBODY and GO) 2016-05-11T23:39:04Z aeth: Except the difference with Lisp versus most other languages is that we're able to do this sort of thing to, rather than just the implementations of the language. 2016-05-11T23:39:10Z aeth: s/to/too/ 2016-05-11T23:42:05Z aeth: So you can write something fast that you would never, ever want to write more than once, and use it all the time. Or use something someone else wrote, since that's even easier. 2016-05-11T23:42:46Z aeth: loop also expands to tagbody and go in SBCL, but it's a bit more complicated, evne with trivial examples. I had to do this to get to the tagbody: (macroexpand-1 (caddr (cdaddr (macroexpand-1 '(loop for i from 1 to 10 do (format t "~D~%" i)))))) 2016-05-11T23:43:12Z aeth: s/evne/even/ 2016-05-11T23:43:57Z aeth: I've never wanted cadddaddr to be built in before, but now I do. 2016-05-11T23:44:22Z el-mikl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-11T23:44:35Z el-mikl joined #lisp 2016-05-11T23:45:31Z bullets: I remember the 2nd chapter (I think) of PCL where he used a macro to avoid repeated code 2016-05-11T23:46:17Z sswords quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-11T23:46:52Z reepca: I remember being in awe of the binary parsing chapter in PCL. 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2016-05-12T01:22:48Z Bike: you can use iolib for sockets, and get bytes in whatever order with the ldb and byte builtins 2016-05-12T01:23:18Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:23:58Z mhsjlw: ah, I havent seen io lib, it looks nice! 2016-05-12T01:24:45Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:25:58Z IPmonger quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T01:28:01Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:28:09Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2016-05-12T01:28:54Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T01:28:57Z wooden_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T01:30:23Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T01:31:11Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:31:41Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:31:41Z Nuri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T01:41:40Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:45:45Z jbakid quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T01:46:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:49:18Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T01:49:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:51:39Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:52:18Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-12T01:53:07Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:01:56Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-12T02:06:17Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T02:06:26Z fugue joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:09:10Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:13:30Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:19:25Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T02:20:25Z safe joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:21:18Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:21:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T02:21:49Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T02:27:20Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T02:28:43Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:32:13Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T02:36:05Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:37:31Z Kazlock quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T02:37:49Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:37:53Z Kazlock joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:37:55Z Kazlock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T02:39:19Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T02:43:08Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T02:45:39Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-12T02:45:46Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-12T02:47:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:48:33Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T02:51:02Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-12T02:51:06Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T02:59:53Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-05-12T03:02:57Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-12T03:03:20Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:03:35Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:03:43Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:04:49Z reverse_1ight joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:05:51Z emaczen: How can I get a list of applicable methods? 2016-05-12T03:06:26Z Bike: compute-applicable-methods 2016-05-12T03:08:15Z reverse_light quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T03:09:22Z emaczen: Bike: Is there MOP documentation linked with SLIME? The hyperspec lookup fails and I don't think it is in the texinfo docs for GCL 2016-05-12T03:09:41Z Bike: no idea. and gcl, really? 2016-05-12T03:09:48Z Bike: compute-applicable-methods is standard, though, not mop. 2016-05-12T03:10:04Z emaczen: Bike: Oh -- I was trying closer-mop: lol 2016-05-12T03:10:37Z Bike: the bot here does mop lookups, too 2016-05-12T03:10:38Z emaczen: I don't use GCL, I just have the texinfo files which just describes the standard commonlisp apis. 2016-05-12T03:10:44Z Bike: mop compute-applicable-methods-using-classes 2016-05-12T03:10:44Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-applicable-methods-using-classes.html 2016-05-12T03:11:17Z emaczen: Bike: how did you get specbot to do that? 2016-05-12T03:11:26Z Bike: i said "mop" and then a name 2016-05-12T03:11:49Z emaczen: What if you are not looking up the mop? 2016-05-12T03:11:59Z Bike: clhs compute-applicable-methods 2016-05-12T03:11:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_comput.htm 2016-05-12T03:11:59Z emaczen: I think I have seen people do "clhs NAME" 2016-05-12T03:12:08Z Bike: specbot: help? 2016-05-12T03:12:08Z specbot: To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database can be: clhs lp mop. 2016-05-12T03:12:20Z emaczen: specbot: what is lp? 2016-05-12T03:12:23Z Bike: mysteries being solved 2016-05-12T03:12:26Z Bike: lp f 2016-05-12T03:12:33Z Bike: looks like it's inoperative anyway. 2016-05-12T03:15:14Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:17:12Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-12T03:21:19Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T03:23:18Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T03:23:19Z pillton pats specbot 2016-05-12T03:26:07Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T03:27:37Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:31:11Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T03:31:25Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:33:19Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:36:41Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-12T03:39:19Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T03:40:25Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:42:03Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:44:00Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-12T03:44:17Z yeticry quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T03:44:42Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-05-12T03:45:35Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T03:49:49Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:00:15Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:00:24Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:00:32Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:01:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T04:01:59Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:02:10Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:03:08Z pillton: Well I'll be damned. 2016-05-12T04:03:11Z pillton: clhs slot-value 2016-05-12T04:03:11Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_slt_va.htm 2016-05-12T04:03:15Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:03:19Z pillton: "Note in particular that the behavior for conditions and structures is not specified." 2016-05-12T04:04:15Z pillton: I knew about structures, but not conditions. 2016-05-12T04:05:48Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:08:32Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-12T04:09:07Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:11:06Z Guest38804 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:12:21Z loke: pillton: I thought conditions were just classes? 2016-05-12T04:13:37Z loke: In particular, at least on SBCL, CONDITION-CLASS is a subclass of STANDARD-CLASS. 2016-05-12T04:16:48Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:17:13Z reepca: I suppose the implementation of conditions is undefined, though it makes the most sense to have them be classes. 2016-05-12T04:19:38Z pillton: On CMUCL it doesn't appear to be so. 2016-05-12T04:20:25Z pillton: So, if you use WITH-SLOTS in a condition report function then you are writing non-portable code. 2016-05-12T04:20:49Z pillton: The meta-class for a condition isn't specified. 2016-05-12T04:21:10Z pillton: clhs 9.1.1 2016-05-12T04:21:10Z specbot: Condition Types: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_aa.htm 2016-05-12T04:22:12Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:22:53Z Bike: 's why pages on conditions say they're "Condition Class"es rather than Classes. 2016-05-12T04:23:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:23:54Z pillton: "Condition type"? 2016-05-12T04:23:55Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T04:24:10Z Bike: type, yes, my mistake 2016-05-12T04:24:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:25:17Z indoor_jellyfish joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:25:20Z reepca: Which reminds me... in common lisp, what's the difference between "type" and "class"? In many other places where I see "type" it refers to information about the variable, not the object. So when do you say "type" and when do you say "class" in common lisp? 2016-05-12T04:25:46Z indoor_jellyfish: reepca: when you define a class a type of the same name is introduced 2016-05-12T04:25:57Z indoor_jellyfish: you can also define types by themselves 2016-05-12T04:26:16Z indoor_jellyfish: I wish that I could expound on the details of common lisp types, but unfortunately cannot 2016-05-12T04:26:18Z Bike: type refers to the type system. any set of objects can be a type: "integer" is a type, and so is "integers between four and seventeen", and "6 and also the string 'foo'" 2016-05-12T04:26:24Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:26:33Z arescorpio quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T04:26:34Z reepca: wow, I did not know you could define types by themselves. 2016-05-12T04:26:54Z Bike: classes are CLOS things. they behave more or less like classes in any object system. 2016-05-12T04:27:33Z indoor_jellyfish: while we're here - does anyone know of a blogpost detailing all the neat stuff you can do wth (SB?)CL types? 2016-05-12T04:27:36Z Bike: every class is also a type (the set of instances of that class) 2016-05-12T04:27:57Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T04:28:21Z pillton: There is a paper in ELS2016 on sequence types. 2016-05-12T04:28:51Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:31:27Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:32:59Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:33:09Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-12T04:33:33Z pillton: G'day beach. 2016-05-12T04:33:36Z Zhivago: Not is a type, but has a corresponding type. 2016-05-12T04:33:56Z Zhivago: The class describes the implementation of objects of the type of the class. 2016-05-12T04:34:37Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:34:52Z Zhivago: A type is a set of potential objects. 2016-05-12T04:35:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:35:34Z Bike: you can give the class to typep, close enough 4 me 2016-05-12T04:36:34Z jack_rip_vim joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:39:15Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:41:09Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:43:12Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:43:24Z Zhivago: You can use a class as a type-specifier to denote a type, but I think it's unuseful to conflate the two. 2016-05-12T04:46:51Z beach: In Cleavir, I have a class CONTEXT that is used during the compilation of ASTs to HIR code. Often, I want to use a different context object for the children of an AST compared to the one used for compiling the AST itself, but the old and the new context object do not differ very much. 2016-05-12T04:46:57Z beach: So I was thinking of writing a CONTEXT-CLONE function that takes a context object and keyword arguments for modifying certain slots, presumably to be given to REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE (the slots of a context object only have readers). 2016-05-12T04:46:58Z beach: How would I structure CONTEXT-CLONE? 1. check each keyword argument and call REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE if the argument is given, or first build an argument list to REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE and then call it once? Or something entirely different? 2016-05-12T04:50:02Z beach: ... I meant 1. check each ... or 2. first build... 2016-05-12T04:52:03Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:52:17Z indoor_jellyfish: beach: The masamune boot CD does not yet work, but I have re-written the build script from "Roll your own RescueCD" (https://www.phenix.bnl.gov/~purschke/RescueCD/) in CL, and it does successfully build a RescueCD (the code, which is dependent on a bunch of masamune internals: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315833). Unfortunately, I have not yet had 2016-05-12T04:52:17Z indoor_jellyfish: time to sit down and untangle the way that the linux boot process actually works so that I can change the shell scripts + shared libraries the original ships with to my own. Should probably try and build a working 'chroot jail' first (as a friend recommended - it would allow testing the new 'RescueCD' without restarting), but it is yet another lin 2016-05-12T04:52:17Z indoor_jellyfish: ux "tool" I know nothing about.. 2016-05-12T04:52:30Z indoor_jellyfish: oh, I'm gabriel_laddel btw 2016-05-12T04:53:27Z beach: indoor_jellyfish: Hello. So you are making good progress then? 2016-05-12T04:53:29Z indoor_jellyfish: beach: if you know of a succinct explanation of how one arranges a bunch of shared libraries & files to get a minimal linux RescueCD working, I'd love to hear about it. 2016-05-12T04:53:34Z indoor_jellyfish: beach: good, but slow. 2016-05-12T04:53:54Z indoor_jellyfish: without such an explanation I'll have to figure this out on my own - which is fine, but time-consuming. 2016-05-12T04:54:20Z beach: I am afraid my knowledge in that domain is very limited. Some other people here might know more. 2016-05-12T04:54:28Z reepca: Hmmm... what's a good way to iterate over a sequence in a random order? 2016-05-12T04:54:59Z indoor_jellyfish: reepca: random-elt, removing the 'eq object from each remaining iteration? 2016-05-12T04:55:04Z indoor_jellyfish: at least, this is how I would do it 2016-05-12T04:55:34Z reepca: but that would require reconstructing a sequence each time, wouldn't it? 2016-05-12T04:55:45Z indoor_jellyfish: yeah 2016-05-12T04:56:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:56:41Z krwq joined #lisp 2016-05-12T04:57:06Z indoor_jellyfish: In other news - for all of you that work in climacs, enabling minibuffer history is easy as: (defmethod climi::frame-maintain-presentation-histories ((frame climacs-gui::climacs)) T) 2016-05-12T04:57:54Z beach: reepca: Start with N = length of sequence. Use a vector. Select a random index i in [0,N[. Swap elements i and N-1, decrement N. Iterate. 2016-05-12T04:58:18Z beach: indoor_jellyfish: Great news! 2016-05-12T04:58:58Z reepca: that's one way to randomize the sequence, but I'm wondering how I could do it without changing the sequence 2016-05-12T04:59:24Z indoor_jellyfish: beach: forrealz. along with a way to set the com-interactive-eval package (I just added a slot to the define-application-frame) and modified the top level loop to bind *package* from it - climacs is *very* usable 2016-05-12T04:59:26Z beach: reepca: Copy it one time first. 2016-05-12T04:59:39Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T04:59:49Z indoor_jellyfish: oh, and I fixed climacs so it no longer will display records so large it'll break.. 2016-05-12T05:00:11Z beach: indoor_jellyfish: That is very good news indeed. 2016-05-12T05:00:14Z Bike: reepca: make a vector that just contains 1..n, permute it randomly, use it to iterate through your array 2016-05-12T05:01:14Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:01:24Z reepca: What I currently have in mind is to recursively pick a random index, do the action on it, then pick a random index from 0-n and another one from n-length and do the same... quicksort-style. 2016-05-12T05:01:38Z beach: reepca: Either way, it seems to me you need a memory of which elements you have already "used". That memory is going to be O(n) as far as I can tell. 2016-05-12T05:02:03Z reepca: Problem is that if the RNG screws me over I get a stack n frames deep... 2016-05-12T05:02:24Z Bike: well, you can do what i said, then. no problem 2016-05-12T05:02:24Z beach: Hence the O(n). 2016-05-12T05:02:42Z indoor_jellyfish: beach: do have code lying around that will insert images (or arbitrary objects) into a drei (climacs) buffer? 2016-05-12T05:02:57Z beach: indoor_jellyfish: I don't think I do, no. 2016-05-12T05:02:57Z indoor_jellyfish: I'm about to implement it, as I couldn't find code online, but if someone has already done it... 2016-05-12T05:05:15Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:05:15Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:05:40Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:06:54Z Zhivago: reepca: The problem is in avoiding re-selection. Without mutation this will eventually involve memorizing all of the indices. 2016-05-12T05:07:43Z Zhivago: reepca: The usually solution is to pick a random element from the set of unselected items to swap with the lowest positioned unselected item, and to then extend the selection to include it. 2016-05-12T05:10:16Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-12T05:11:20Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:14:12Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:17:46Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:18:22Z indoor_jellyfish quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-12T05:18:37Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-12T05:19:39Z beach: reepca: I am fairly convinced your approach does not give a truly random order. 2016-05-12T05:19:41Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:20:15Z reepca: That's quite possible. It wasn't very well thought-out. 2016-05-12T05:21:12Z reepca: Yeah, looking at it now, that seems clear. 2016-05-12T05:21:39Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:21:40Z beach: reepca: If you have the sequence of integers from 1 to (say) 10, you will never generate an order that starts with 5, 1, 2. 2016-05-12T05:22:23Z beach: Er, no, it's the other way around. 2016-05-12T05:22:39Z beach: You will never generate 5, 1, 6... 2016-05-12T05:24:02Z indoor_jellyfish joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:24:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:25:41Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:25:43Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-12T05:27:40Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:29:04Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:29:45Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:31:07Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T05:31:49Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T05:32:23Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:33:04Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:34:17Z indoor_jellyfish quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-12T05:36:18Z fugue quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T05:37:34Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:40:42Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:43:15Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:45:50Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:47:28Z flip214: drmeister: re https://drmeister.wordpress.com/2016/05/04/linking-llvm-bitcode-files-for-a-dynamic-language/ -- dlsym(3) with RTLD_NEXT might be another solution. 2016-05-12T05:51:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:51:42Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-12T05:53:04Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-12T05:56:16Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T05:57:58Z drmeister: flip214: Hello - thanks. Clasp uses dlopen(3) and dlsym(3) to load libraries and introspect for symbols. 2016-05-12T06:00:06Z beach: drmeister: So you made it to Sweden? 2016-05-12T06:00:25Z zaquest quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T06:00:38Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-12T06:00:49Z drmeister: Hi beach - yes. I'm just getting up. 2016-05-12T06:01:16Z beach: I just introduced ASTs for the different OPTIMIZE qualities and a way for COMPILE-AST to handle them. 2016-05-12T06:01:53Z beach: They are not generated from source code yet, and they are not taken advantage of yet in other compilation methods, but at least the mechanism is in place. 2016-05-12T06:05:23Z beach: Soon, I will introduce something like a SCOPE-AST that will give the scope of an identifier. When DEBUG is high, this scope will determine the liveness of variables, rather than the data-flow answer to the question. The typical use case is so that the compiler won't eliminate variables that the programmer expects to see, even though the optimization passes of the compiler could do so. 2016-05-12T06:09:33Z flip214: drmeister: I meant that with RTLD_NEXT each library could ask for the next initialization function, much like (call-next-method) does. 2016-05-12T06:10:59Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-12T06:13:17Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:13:42Z beach: Hmm, I should probably introduce a large number of compilation parameters, and stick them as slots in the CONTEXT class. Then, each implementation can do several things: 1. Decide the parameter values based on OPTIMIZE qualities, 2. Decide the default parameter values, 3. Add implementation-specific parameters, 4. Provide ways for supplying the parameter values with mechanisms other than OPTIMIZE qualities. 2016-05-12T06:18:16Z neuri8- quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:20:59Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-12T06:21:00Z arbv left #lisp 2016-05-12T06:21:12Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:21:51Z neuri8 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:25:30Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:25:47Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:26:11Z indoor_jellyfish joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:27:24Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:29:27Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:30:41Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:32:25Z davsebamse quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-12T06:33:38Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:40:58Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:41:26Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:42:51Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:43:02Z _vaitel joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:43:25Z jackc-_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T06:43:28Z indoor_jellyfish quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-12T06:43:51Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:43:56Z dmiles quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T06:44:07Z logicmoo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:44:39Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:44:40Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-12T06:44:48Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:46:19Z cross_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:46:57Z vaitel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:46:57Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:47:17Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-12T06:49:47Z jackc- joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:50:03Z Intensity quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:51:01Z akkad quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T06:51:32Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:52:05Z Intensity joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:52:25Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-12T06:53:00Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:53:45Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:53:58Z cross joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:57:20Z Jesin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:57:55Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:57:58Z copec quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:58:09Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:58:38Z ``Erik quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T06:58:40Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-12T06:59:10Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2016-05-12T06:59:17Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:00:04Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:00:05Z roscoe_t` joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:00:36Z voidlily quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:00:36Z roscoe_tw quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:02:48Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:03:26Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T07:03:27Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:03:33Z cross quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:03:38Z copec joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:04:09Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:05:06Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:05:08Z Nuri quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:05:32Z cross joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:06:07Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:06:55Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:08:44Z indoor_jellyfish joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:09:07Z indoor_jellyfish: To anyone following CLIMACS. You can insert arbitrary objects into buffers with: 2016-05-12T07:09:09Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:09:19Z indoor_jellyfish: (drei-buffer::insert-object (point) (CAR CLIM-USER::IDENTITIES)) 2016-05-12T07:10:15Z indoor_jellyfish: where CLIM-USER::IDENTITIES is from: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune/master/introduction.lisp 2016-05-12T07:10:38Z indoor_jellyfish: another useful tool is (setf drei::*highlight-strokes* T) 2016-05-12T07:10:46Z indoor_jellyfish: which will cause it to do just that. 2016-05-12T07:11:08Z indoor_jellyfish: Render is still quite fast on ~7yr old hardware. 2016-05-12T07:12:13Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:12:23Z indoor_jellyfish quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T07:12:32Z loke: indoor_jellyfish: Does mcclim still haev the problem where the control and meta keys are not detected? 2016-05-12T07:13:32Z akkad joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:13:48Z roscoe_t` is now known as roscoe_tw 2016-05-12T07:15:55Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:17:36Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:26:15Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:26:54Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:29:07Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:30:23Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:30:51Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T07:31:08Z ssake quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:31:12Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:33:37Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:34:42Z jack_rip_vim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T07:35:31Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:35:42Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:36:14Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:39:35Z gigetoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:40:18Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:41:00Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:42:58Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-12T07:43:20Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:43:31Z Bike quit (Quit: despoil / despoil) 2016-05-12T07:44:05Z mood: mhsjlw: (a bit late) If you can't/don't want to depend on iolib, there's also nibbles which reads and writes from normal CL streams and vectors: https://github.com/froydnj/nibbles 2016-05-12T07:44:50Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:45:26Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-12T07:46:12Z mood: emaczen: specbot's lp is for launchpad bugs. It's primarily used to link to SBCL bugs, for example: 2016-05-12T07:46:14Z mood: lp 1153309 2016-05-12T07:46:14Z specbot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1153309 2016-05-12T07:46:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:48:21Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:49:46Z hzp joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:50:16Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:50:18Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:51:25Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-12T07:51:51Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T07:51:58Z varjag: how one uses sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die within slime session? 2016-05-12T07:52:11Z varjag: i get a restart complaining multiple threads are running 2016-05-12T07:52:46Z varjag: (swank & friends) 2016-05-12T07:52:56Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:53:41Z _8hzp` quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-12T07:53:44Z hzp quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T07:53:50Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:54:08Z hzp joined #lisp 2016-05-12T07:55:52Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T07:55:52Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-12T08:02:21Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:04:58Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:07:04Z grindhold is now known as gabbergrindhold 2016-05-12T08:08:32Z phoe_krk: varjag: http://www.cliki.net/trivial-dump-core varjag 2016-05-12T08:09:22Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:09:43Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:09:51Z varjag: (ql:quickload "trivial-dump-core") 2016-05-12T08:09:56Z varjag: mmm 2016-05-12T08:10:05Z phoe_krk: It goes like 2016-05-12T08:10:09Z varjag: phoe_krk: thanks! 2016-05-12T08:10:10Z phoe_krk: "Segmentation fault, core dumped" 2016-05-12T08:10:12Z phoe_krk: varjag: :D 2016-05-12T08:10:46Z loke: (ql:quickload "trivial-is-array") 2016-05-12T08:10:56Z loke needs it 2016-05-12T08:11:03Z phoe_krk: https://gitlab.com/mbabich/trivial-left-pad 2016-05-12T08:11:07Z phoe_krk: loke: check out this 2016-05-12T08:13:12Z arbv: varjag: uiop:dump-image is cool too. But I am not sure if it will help on sbcl with multiple threads running. 2016-05-12T08:14:21Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:15:05Z flash- joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:17:05Z varjag: well did it with trivial-dump-core already 2016-05-12T08:17:13Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:20:45Z krwq quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T08:20:54Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:21:15Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:22:33Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:22:38Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:25:01Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:25:03Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:25:59Z varjag: man quicklisp is the single best thing that happened to cl in 30 years 2016-05-12T08:26:15Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-12T08:27:00Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T08:27:10Z arbv: varjag: agree. I wish installing C/C++ libraries would be so easy. 2016-05-12T08:27:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:28:09Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:29:41Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:30:15Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:31:55Z gabbergrindhold is now known as grindhold 2016-05-12T08:32:58Z rtoym quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T08:34:12Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:34:18Z rtoym joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:34:47Z __main__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:35:09Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:36:03Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:36:59Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:37:28Z __main__ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:38:52Z xmad quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:39:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:39:11Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-12T08:39:11Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:41:03Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T08:42:29Z xmad joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:43:29Z phoe_krk: I had the weirdest idea. 2016-05-12T08:43:47Z phoe_krk: Of compiling C++ libraries with Clasp and utilizing some sort of Clasp package manager to sort them around. 2016-05-12T08:43:52Z phoe_krk: o_o 2016-05-12T08:45:42Z arbv: phoe_krk: I seems like building the bridge between two worlds on your own for me. o_O 2016-05-12T08:48:50Z buyfn joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:50:45Z katco joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:51:28Z buyfn quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T08:53:11Z varjag: http://sillyconfusion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/van-damme-volvo-ad-3.png 2016-05-12T08:53:17Z varjag: i think of that every time 2016-05-12T08:53:21Z varjag: i do ffi 2016-05-12T08:54:43Z arbv: varjag: lol) 2016-05-12T08:55:22Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-12T08:57:00Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:04:42Z test1600 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T09:11:06Z quazimodo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T09:12:13Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:16:58Z fUD joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:20:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:26:43Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T09:29:34Z bandrami joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:30:17Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T09:30:43Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:34:11Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:39:19Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:40:56Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:42:40Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T09:45:02Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T09:45:15Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:51:43Z test1600 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:52:42Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-12T09:53:12Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-12T09:53:39Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T09:55:04Z tkd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T09:55:25Z tkd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:55:38Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:57:42Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-12T09:59:57Z blackwolf quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-12T10:06:13Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:07:12Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:09:01Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:10:14Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:14:52Z j-dawg is now known as jurov 2016-05-12T10:21:10Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:21:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T10:22:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:22:52Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:23:23Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:24:21Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:24:49Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:25:51Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:32:13Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:32:24Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:33:02Z _vaitel_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:35:33Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:36:04Z _vaitel quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:40:16Z ssice: is there a way I can introspect the `DECLARE'd expressions stated in a defun? 2016-05-12T10:42:35Z varjag: afaik no 2016-05-12T10:42:40Z varjag: also, declare is not defun-specific 2016-05-12T10:42:59Z varjag: applicable to other block bodies, e.g. let 2016-05-12T10:44:18Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:44:41Z ssice: I understand 2016-05-12T10:44:50Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:44:51Z ssice: but in general it is not possible either? 2016-05-12T10:45:06Z ssice: something like "everything declare'd in scope at point"? 2016-05-12T10:45:38Z varjag: i don't think there's any portable way to introspect a compiled function structure in general 2016-05-12T10:45:43Z varjag: aside from DISASSEMBLE 2016-05-12T10:46:01Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T10:46:15Z ssice: then, what's the practical purpose for introducing custom declarations? 2016-05-12T10:46:44Z varjag: to perform optimizations compiler has hard time inferring itself 2016-05-12T10:47:21Z ssice: no, no, I mean introducing declarations as (declaim (declaration custom-thing)) 2016-05-12T10:47:44Z ssice: so later you can use (declare (custom-thing whatever)) as a valid declaration 2016-05-12T10:47:59Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:48:18Z jackdaniel: declaim isn't a definition of the declare 2016-05-12T10:48:29Z ssice: if only standard declarations are portable, and non-standard d 2016-05-12T10:48:30Z ssice: oops 2016-05-12T10:48:31Z ssice: sorry 2016-05-12T10:48:32Z ssice: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_declar.htm 2016-05-12T10:48:33Z jackdaniel: it estabilishes the declaration at the toplevel (while declare does it in the block) 2016-05-12T10:48:52Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:49:03Z jackdaniel: the most likely way to scrap the declarations (to answer the original question), would be (I think) writing a code walker for that 2016-05-12T10:49:46Z jackdaniel: ssice: also, declarations (if not understood by the compiler) are ignored 2016-05-12T10:49:51Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:50:17Z jackdaniel: it's just a hint for the compiler 2016-05-12T10:50:50Z ssice: ok, but custom non-standard declarations proclaimed with the DECLARATION declaration (ref. link above), what's their purpose? Why define them? 2016-05-12T10:51:17Z varjag: do you have any specific example? 2016-05-12T10:51:19Z jackdaniel: custom non-standard declarations? where? 2016-05-12T10:51:27Z varjag: because i don't think they work the way you think 2016-05-12T10:51:30Z ssice: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/d_declar.htm 2016-05-12T10:51:40Z ssice: look at the example there 2016-05-12T10:52:00Z jackdaniel: ssice: read the description 2016-05-12T10:52:09Z jackdaniel: ECL may recognize declaration (declare (c-local function)) 2016-05-12T10:52:10Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T10:52:17Z jackdaniel: while SBCL won't recognize it and will issue the warning 2016-05-12T10:52:35Z ssice: so it's just a "portability hack"? 2016-05-12T10:52:38Z jackdaniel: so you should to declaim, that it's a implementation-dependant declaration and that it shouldn't rise a warning 2016-05-12T10:53:05Z jackdaniel: yes, I think you may call it that way, but I don't consider it being a hack 2016-05-12T10:53:17Z bandrami: I should hyperspec this, but, what's the scope of a declamation? 2016-05-12T10:53:18Z varjag: ssice: it doesn't define anything, just tells compiler which declaration to ignore 2016-05-12T10:53:22Z ssice: you could implement that as a feature-conditional #+ 2016-05-12T10:53:43Z ssice: as (defun whatever () #+ecl (declare (c-local x)) ... ) 2016-05-12T10:54:20Z jackdaniel: bandrami: it's a file-scope, but spec doesn't mandate, that it should be revoked, so it may be global as well 2016-05-12T10:54:27Z jackdaniel: bandrami: that is it is at least a file-scope 2016-05-12T10:54:30Z mood: bandrami: infinite, according to the standard. However, SBCL limits the scope of (optimize ...) to the file it's in. 2016-05-12T10:55:01Z jackdaniel: ssice: why? different compilers may support the same declarations 2016-05-12T10:55:03Z jackdaniel: like the author 2016-05-12T10:55:08Z jackdaniel: or something else 2016-05-12T10:55:26Z jackdaniel: sbcl may some day implement (c-local …), why shouldn't it benefit? 2016-05-12T10:55:37Z jackdaniel: from this valuable information 2016-05-12T10:55:49Z ssice: ok, so have a proper feature for that #+has-c-local 2016-05-12T10:56:01Z ssice: my point is that it can be solved there 2016-05-12T10:56:10Z varjag: there are many ways to solve this 2016-05-12T10:56:15Z jackdaniel: ssice: it would be cumbersome imo, reader macro #+ isn't meant for the compiler, rather the reader 2016-05-12T10:56:30Z varjag: as with most things in common lisp 2016-05-12T10:56:34Z jackdaniel: ssice: it can be solved many ways, but is there something particularily wrong with this approach? 2016-05-12T10:56:39Z varjag: that form is in the standard for convenience 2016-05-12T10:56:50Z varjag: (as are many others) 2016-05-12T10:56:57Z jackdaniel: I can see many benefits (simple uniform syntax, compatibility without relying on some features etc) 2016-05-12T10:57:13Z jackdaniel: it's just a promise to the compiler, if the compiler doesn't understand the promise, it's OK, it won't rely on it 2016-05-12T10:57:22Z ssice: no, I just find it curious that the declarations are that opaque 2016-05-12T10:57:23Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T10:57:36Z ssice: but it's alright, I was just curious on whether I was missing something 2016-05-12T10:58:01Z jackdaniel: ssice: compiler is free to ignore any declaration, even these defined by standard 2016-05-12T10:58:20Z ssice: I understand the functions themselves are opaque objects, but declarations seemed a nice way to put metadata on them 2016-05-12T10:58:52Z jackdaniel: ssice: symbols are the other place where you may put the metadata 2016-05-12T11:00:40Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T11:00:43Z loke: jackdaniel: Not all 2016-05-12T11:00:52Z loke: jackdaniel: It's not free to ignore (DECLARE SPECIAL ...) 2016-05-12T11:01:04Z jackdaniel: loke: yes 2016-05-12T11:01:04Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:01:36Z jackdaniel: I consider it being the exception from the rule, blurring the overall concept, so I've lied a little :) 2016-05-12T11:01:47Z jackdaniel: but yeah, you're 100% right 2016-05-12T11:01:51Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:02:16Z loke: jackdaniel: I think makign special declarations as a DECLARE to be a bad decision on the part of the designers of CL 2016-05-12T11:02:55Z jackdaniel: yes, when you say that I think that I share that opinion 2016-05-12T11:03:36Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:03:52Z loke: I think I would have preferred a LET-SPECIAL form or something. Similar to PROGV 2016-05-12T11:04:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T11:05:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:05:54Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:12:04Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:16:29Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:17:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T11:17:59Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:19:12Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:20:08Z jackdaniel: scheme calls it fluid-let I think 2016-05-12T11:20:52Z ecraven: jackdaniel: it's called PARAMETERIZE nowadays :-) 2016-05-12T11:21:19Z ecraven: (which is about as good as DECLARE... LET-something would have been much better, imho) 2016-05-12T11:21:46Z jackdaniel doesn't know scheme well :p 2016-05-12T11:22:58Z jackdaniel: so the parameterize is like fluid-let but works well with threads and continuations? (found here http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/parameters.html) 2016-05-12T11:23:03Z bandrami: Thanks. I'm mostly on ecl; will have to check what they do 2016-05-12T11:23:32Z jackdaniel: bandrami: then join the #ecl channel :) if you have any questions don't hestitate to write to the mailing list 2016-05-12T11:24:45Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:25:42Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:26:24Z rjmacready joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:26:29Z bandrami: jackdaniel, ah, cool, just realized who you are. Thanks! 2016-05-12T11:26:42Z jackdaniel: :-) 2016-05-12T11:27:12Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T11:27:50Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T11:28:30Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T11:29:11Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:29:38Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:31:28Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T11:33:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T11:33:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:34:45Z malice` joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:35:05Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:37:19Z bandrami quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T11:38:22Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:38:54Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:39:07Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:40:16Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:44:58Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:45:36Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:48:33Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:49:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T11:50:17Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:52:33Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T11:53:49Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-12T11:54:48Z Nuri quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T11:59:47Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:06:25Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-12T12:10:27Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:14:26Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:17:14Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-12T12:17:46Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:18:54Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:19:21Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:20:16Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:20:53Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:25:04Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:27:30Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:27:53Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:30:33Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-12T12:32:51Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:33:40Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-12T12:35:22Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-12T12:39:24Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:44:22Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:46:19Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:48:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:49:34Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T12:49:53Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:50:47Z malice`: Is Gnu Common Lisp alive? Does anybody use it? http://www.gnu.org/software/gcl/ 2016-05-12T12:51:02Z malice`: I've stumbled across it and I am surprised because I thought that Gnu had already their CL compiler - CLISP. 2016-05-12T12:51:44Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-12T12:53:02Z convexferret quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:53:14Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:53:22Z jackdaniel: they have different roots 2016-05-12T12:53:47Z jackdaniel: gcl isn't ansi compatible yet, but it is alive 2016-05-12T12:53:57Z jackdaniel: (it is in the same family as ecl btw) 2016-05-12T12:54:19Z jackdaniel: malice`: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/698157022483771392 2016-05-12T12:55:51Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:56:33Z jackdaniel: s/compatible/compliant/ 2016-05-12T12:57:39Z jokleinn quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:57:43Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-12T12:58:44Z malice`: thanks for the graph 2016-05-12T12:58:56Z malice`: I thought it was dead since last release is from 2 years back 2016-05-12T12:59:09Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T12:59:20Z jackdaniel: clisp last release is in 2011 :p 2016-05-12T12:59:33Z jackdaniel: 2010 even 2016-05-12T12:59:36Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:00:11Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:02:25Z malice`: I know, the fact that CLISP isn't maintained right now isn't a secret, but I was asking about GCL. 2016-05-12T13:02:43Z malice`: BTW. someone decided to make new release of CLISP for the current Google Summer of Code. 2016-05-12T13:03:52Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:06:54Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:07:23Z jack_rip_vim joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:07:58Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:08:22Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:08:33Z dim: I'd rather see someone working on SBCL GC to make it less conservative 2016-05-12T13:08:57Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:10:37Z mnoonan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T13:11:29Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:11:52Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:12:12Z Xach: gcl is actively maintained 2016-05-12T13:14:09Z _vaitel_ is now known as vaitel 2016-05-12T13:19:53Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:19:55Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:20:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:23:15Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:23:32Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:27:35Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:28:02Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T13:28:42Z sepi: how do I designate an setf function for export? 2016-05-12T13:29:03Z _death: you don't export functions, just symbols 2016-05-12T13:29:33Z jackdaniel: (so if you export a function, then (setf (function …) val) should work just fine) 2016-05-12T13:29:42Z TeMPOraL: sepi: exporting symbol foo will work for both function foo and (setf foo) 2016-05-12T13:29:57Z jackdaniel: first :p 2016-05-12T13:30:07Z sepi: ok, then something else must be wrong. This was also my understanding 2016-05-12T13:30:07Z TeMPOraL: jackdaniel: I think he means a setf-function, not setting the function slot :P 2016-05-12T13:30:11Z sepi: thanks 2016-05-12T13:30:48Z jack_rip_vim: is that possible write two same name function, then run together. 2016-05-12T13:30:50Z jack_rip_vim: ? 2016-05-12T13:31:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:31:26Z jackdaniel: jack_rip_vim: yes, using the CLOS 2016-05-12T13:31:42Z jack_rip_vim: let me try. 2016-05-12T13:32:13Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:32:38Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:32:46Z jackdaniel: jack_rip_vim: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html (method combinations) 2016-05-12T13:36:01Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:37:10Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:38:16Z jack_rip_vim: good things 2016-05-12T13:39:30Z dim: and then we say there's only one function and it's a generic function ; and it knows one or more methods that are specialized on its arguments 2016-05-12T13:39:41Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:39:50Z jackdaniel: I sometimes feel a bit overhelmed by CLOS, but it's impressive, not doubt 2016-05-12T13:40:15Z yrk quit (Changing host) 2016-05-12T13:40:15Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:40:17Z jack_rip_vim: better to try this. 2016-05-12T13:40:25Z jack_rip_vim: I think I am. 2016-05-12T13:40:27Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:42:16Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:43:24Z dim: I admit that things like (change-class (call-next-method fixed path-spec) 'copy-fixed) are pretty impressive (and darn useful) 2016-05-12T13:43:56Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:44:06Z jack_rip_vim: OK, try all of it. 2016-05-12T13:44:57Z Moosef joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:46:49Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:47:14Z Guest8509 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:50:31Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:53:08Z _bogdanm_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T13:55:47Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T13:56:25Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T13:59:39Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:00:36Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:01:13Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:06:04Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:09:37Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:11:09Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:11:12Z reverse_light joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:11:33Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:11:58Z gilez is now known as Guest85062 2016-05-12T14:12:32Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:12:50Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:13:15Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:14:17Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:14:50Z didi: andrei-n: Any progress on the HTML parser front? 2016-05-12T14:15:15Z reverse_1ight quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:15:26Z rudolfochrist quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T14:15:34Z srcerer_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:16:29Z andrei-n: didi, no. I don't know well enough the environment in order to use it efficiently... 2016-05-12T14:16:40Z didi: andrei-n: oic 2016-05-12T14:16:46Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:17:41Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:19:32Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:20:04Z srcerer_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:20:29Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:23:51Z Guest85062 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:24:21Z drot quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:24:21Z Fade quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:24:28Z Fade joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:24:56Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:25:50Z drot joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:28:53Z zygentoma quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-12T14:29:08Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:30:41Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T14:30:44Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:30:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:31:14Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:31:37Z gilez is now known as Guest42541 2016-05-12T14:33:00Z Munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T14:34:35Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:35:52Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:35:56Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:39:18Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:39:18Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:39:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:41:46Z jbakid_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:42:00Z rpg: Here's a funny thing that happened to me: I invoked SLIME-FIND-ASD-FILE and got an error where "for" is unbound. I think this means SLIME has failed to load the CL-style LOOP macro. Anyone else see this? 2016-05-12T14:42:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:42:40Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:43:17Z rpg: I suspect it's a misconfiguration of mine, but not sure how to debug it. 2016-05-12T14:43:51Z jbakid quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T14:43:51Z jbakid_ is now known as jbakid 2016-05-12T14:44:26Z malice` quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-12T14:45:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:45:08Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:45:52Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T14:46:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:47:01Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T14:47:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:48:11Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T14:48:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T14:50:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:00:46Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T15:03:17Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:04:59Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-12T15:05:01Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:05:15Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-12T15:05:23Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:05:33Z jbakid_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:07:34Z sepi: I'm trying to define a new method which has a different arity than the one previopusly defined. Now sbcl complains that this doesnt fir with the implicit defgeneric. Can I somehow undef the generic function in order to procede with redefining the method? 2016-05-12T15:07:50Z sepi: s/fir/fit/ 2016-05-12T15:07:57Z jbakid quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:07:57Z jbakid_ is now known as jbakid 2016-05-12T15:09:58Z Xach: sepi: fmakunbound will delete the generic function 2016-05-12T15:10:45Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:12:06Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:13:19Z thiefuniverse joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:15:46Z didi likes to use inspect 2016-05-12T15:15:47Z sepi: Xach: nice. It would have been nice if the debugger had offered me a restart to refine the generic function. 2016-05-12T15:16:00Z didi: C-c I 2016-05-12T15:16:11Z Xach: sepi: in sbcl it does, if you write a new defgeneric instead of a varying defmethod 2016-05-12T15:16:25Z Xach: I prefer to work from defgeneric first, defmethod after 2016-05-12T15:18:22Z sepi: Ok, that's a good reason to write explicit defgenerics then. 2016-05-12T15:18:52Z sepi: I'm starting to get a hang of common lisp. It gets better and better all the time :D 2016-05-12T15:19:02Z jackdaniel: I like the (defgeneric … (:method …)) syntax 2016-05-12T15:19:09Z jackdaniel: to keep things tight and clean 2016-05-12T15:19:20Z jackdaniel: (unless the methods are somewhat long) 2016-05-12T15:19:22Z thiefuniverse: I really want to learn common lisp and I'm reading the ansi common lisp by Paul Graham. Are there some good practices for me? Thank you really!(I have to say I'm still a newbi.....) 2016-05-12T15:19:48Z didi: thiefuniverse: PCL is nice. 2016-05-12T15:19:48Z Xach: thiefuniverse: that book has exercises. 2016-05-12T15:19:51Z sepi: thiefuniverse: what really got me started was http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2016-05-12T15:19:59Z Xach: thiefuniverse: practical common lisp, as suggested, is better than paul graham's book. 2016-05-12T15:20:08Z Xach: and it's online for free reading 2016-05-12T15:20:09Z jackdaniel: thiefuniverse: this is an excellent book (I started with it), but has some schemisms 2016-05-12T15:20:46Z didi: Schemism? 2016-05-12T15:20:47Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:21:19Z jackdaniel: some habits taken from scheme, like (if something nil else-clause) instead of using (unless something …) 2016-05-12T15:21:34Z thiefuniverse: Thanks!:) 2016-05-12T15:21:44Z didi: jackdaniel: Ah. I would call it "schemims" but I got it. 2016-05-12T15:21:47Z jackdaniel: and CLOS isn't covered in detail 2016-05-12T15:21:50Z didi: wouldn't* 2016-05-12T15:21:56Z Xach: neither are packages 2016-05-12T15:22:01Z jackdaniel: right 2016-05-12T15:22:08Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-12T15:22:22Z jackdaniel: it's has an excellent exercises imho, doing them made me better programmer 2016-05-12T15:22:33Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:22:37Z didi: For instance, I like using `when' and `unless' for side effects. 2016-05-12T15:22:46Z jackdaniel: thiefuniverse: you're fine with the book you're reading, but if you find it too hard, or don't like the style, go for PCL (linked above) 2016-05-12T15:23:12Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:23:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:24:14Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:24:16Z jackdaniel: didi: yeah, it's a matter of personal taste too 2016-05-12T15:24:24Z didi nods 2016-05-12T15:24:38Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:24:53Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:25:14Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:25:14Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:25:39Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:26:16Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:26:40Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-12T15:26:59Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:27:22Z vydd quit 2016-05-12T15:27:55Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:30:10Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-12T15:32:09Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:33:25Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:33:26Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:33:53Z thiefuniverse: What do you do by lisp? Working for what?(I'm a student :)) I'm really interested in its macro and want to learn it! 2016-05-12T15:34:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T15:35:20Z jackdaniel: I do the things I already did with the programming languages – build software. It's more pleasent though 2016-05-12T15:35:38Z jackdaniel: with the other programming languages° 2016-05-12T15:36:37Z jackdaniel: some time ago I've wrote a tool to annotate the sentences, and then to calculate the HMEANT metric 2016-05-12T15:36:48Z jackdaniel: between the text and the translation 2016-05-12T15:37:16Z jackdaniel: I use it for blogging, system managament, learning, experimenting 2016-05-12T15:37:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:37:38Z jackdaniel: I have a DSL which calls other programs on the system to program the embedded devices 2016-05-12T15:38:18Z jackdaniel: people do exciting stuff with the computers, CL is a very good programming language to tinker with them 2016-05-12T15:38:40Z thiefuniverse: It's vecy cool! 2016-05-12T15:39:24Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:39:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:43:11Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:43:19Z thiefuniverse: I will learn it carefully! Really, language's power depends on our use. Thank you! 2016-05-12T15:43:21Z Fade: hum. quickdocs.org is down. 2016-05-12T15:43:31Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:43:47Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:44:12Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:44:58Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:45:22Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:46:01Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:46:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:47:03Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:47:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:48:03Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T15:48:27Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:50:07Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:50:35Z Moosef quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-12T15:50:46Z thiefuniverse quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T15:52:04Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:52:45Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T15:53:06Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:53:54Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-12T15:54:09Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-12T15:54:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:54:23Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:54:26Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:54:48Z jackdaniel: confirmed 2016-05-12T15:54:54Z akkad: is there a way to get a size in memory of a given object? trying to keep a queue from getting too large on gc challenged lisps 2016-05-12T15:54:54Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:57:43Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:58:35Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-12T15:58:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:01:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:01:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:04:13Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:04:15Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-12T16:04:42Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:05:19Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T16:05:42Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:05:44Z boryashkin joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:06:18Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-12T16:06:42Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:06:46Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:14:13Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:15:52Z pyx joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:16:28Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:18:15Z pyx quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T16:18:38Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:20:31Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:21:14Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:23:20Z stardiviner quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-12T16:25:31Z jack_rip_vim quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T16:26:30Z flash- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T16:26:38Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:26:49Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:29:21Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-12T16:29:38Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:30:12Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:30:22Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-12T16:30:26Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:32:10Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:33:24Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:33:38Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:35:03Z Don_John joined #lisp 2016-05-12T16:35:07Z Don_John quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T16:38:28Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T16:40:29Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-12T16:40:38Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ASDF's package-inferred-system worked fine until I tried to setup an /all package 2016-05-12T21:28:44Z aeth: The all package seems to load everything fine, but only once. If it's then reloaded through quicklisp, it can't find anything and errors 2016-05-12T21:32:50Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-12T21:33:18Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T21:33:19Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-12T21:37:15Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T21:37:30Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-12T21:37:58Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-12T21:38:44Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T21:39:12Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-12T21:39:40Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-12T21:43:33Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-12T21:47:52Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-12T21:49:11Z mdddzzz quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-12T21:50:21Z briantrice quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-12T21:51:39Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-12T21:52:14Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-12T21:53:09Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-12T21:54:48Z aeth: *Oh* 2016-05-12T21:55:01Z aeth: for some 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connection) 2016-05-13T02:07:15Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:07:39Z zacharias quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T02:07:44Z zacharias_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:09:28Z jsmith___ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:10:10Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:10:40Z mmastic joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:11:43Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-13T02:11:58Z mmastic: Is my observation correct that in functions, the object you're working on is idiomatically taken as the last parameter? 2016-05-13T02:12:11Z Zhivago: No. 2016-05-13T02:12:19Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:13:15Z mmastic: Can you elaborate? so should I take it first? it seems to be last with most built-in functions. 2016-05-13T02:13:32Z jsmith__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:13:41Z Bike: what do you mean "the object you're working on", exactly? 2016-05-13T02:13:50Z Zhivago: The thing is that functions work on all of their arguments. 2016-05-13T02:14:00Z Zhivago: So it doesn't really make much sense. 2016-05-13T02:14:29Z mmastic: No, I mean, let's say you define a data structure, and you define operations for it. Typically you take the data structure value as the last argument in some languages. It seems it is the case with CL too, I just want to confirm. 2016-05-13T02:14:37Z White_Flame: mmastic: Just look at SETF vs PUSH, and you'll see different orderings 2016-05-13T02:14:41Z mmastic: It's most notably so for languages with currying for obvious reasons. 2016-05-13T02:15:59Z Zhivago: Which doesn't include CL. 2016-05-13T02:16:22Z Bike: i'm really not sure what you're thinking. for, like, REDUCE, what would be "the data structure value"? 2016-05-13T02:16:29Z Bike: also, this kind of doesn't work with keyword arguments, probably? 2016-05-13T02:16:33Z mmastic: The sequence. 2016-05-13T02:16:49Z Bike: why? 2016-05-13T02:17:12Z mmastic: Yes this is why I'm actually asking, because it seems strange to order it as such, but still I found most functions on values work like that. 2016-05-13T02:17:31Z mmastic: Because a fold is an operation on a sequence. 2016-05-13T02:17:44Z mmastic: fold/reduce* 2016-05-13T02:17:55Z Bike: i think of it as an operation on a function and a sequence. it's not like you can do it with just one. 2016-05-13T02:17:57Z Zhivago: fold is an operation between a sequence and an operator. 2016-05-13T02:19:06Z White_Flame: I think most of the ordering is arbitrary and comes from a more natural prose description of "this does this to that" style verbiage 2016-05-13T02:19:53Z White_Flame: using the example above "push this item onto the list" vs "set this variable to that value", where the (lone) mutated field is in different positions across the forms 2016-05-13T02:19:55Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:21:32Z mmastic: Well, maybe what I'm talking about comes from a more functional perspective :P seems it's a foreign idea here. Thank you though. 2016-05-13T02:21:57Z White_Flame: it's currying that's foreign to CL, not functional 2016-05-13T02:22:28Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:22:30Z White_Flame: but even with currying, it always seems that arguments are out of order with respect to the iterative application I desire in many situations :-P 2016-05-13T02:22:43Z White_Flame: the "real" solution would be order-free, named variables that can be curried in any order 2016-05-13T02:22:50Z White_Flame: s/variables/parameters/ 2016-05-13T02:22:56Z mmastic: Currying emphasizes the object you're operating on, so to speak. It does not make it so. 2016-05-13T02:23:00Z Bike: sounds annoying to write out though 2016-05-13T02:23:11Z White_Flame: "the object you're working on" is also foreign to CL, especially with multimethods 2016-05-13T02:23:13Z Zhivago: That's a bad way to understand currying. 2016-05-13T02:23:26Z Bike: it's just, there's a reason haskell has flip, you know? 2016-05-13T02:23:27Z mmastic: I did not explain currying. 2016-05-13T02:23:36Z White_Flame: CL thinking separates functions from object classes 2016-05-13T02:23:36Z bigfoot111 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:24:06Z White_Flame: Your statements are much more along single-dispatch OO thinking, where functions are related to only specific "this" objects 2016-05-13T02:24:12Z Zhivago: Currying just provides a linearization of operand binding. 2016-05-13T02:24:31Z Zhivago: It doesn't emphasize anything in particular. 2016-05-13T02:24:45Z Zhivago: Yes. It does seem like a single-dispatch mindset issue. 2016-05-13T02:25:16Z jsmith___ quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-13T02:25:23Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:25:33Z mmastic: I'm simply referring to having a data structure with operations on it. Even if it has more than one parameter for the data structure's value. 2016-05-13T02:25:57Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:26:11Z Bike: that idea presumes more connection between data structures and operations than actually has to exist 2016-05-13T02:26:23Z mmastic: Zhivago, this is not a discussion about currying, I gave it as an example of where it's obvious. 2016-05-13T02:27:25Z Zhivago: But it isn't obvious there. 2016-05-13T02:28:44Z White_Flame: collision handling in games is an obvious case that breaks single-dispatch thinking. If you have (collide missile player), is "*the* data structure" the missile or the player? 2016-05-13T02:29:07Z White_Flame: both will be mutated 2016-05-13T02:29:12Z Zhivago: Currying (a b c d) to (((a b) c) d) doesn't make (a b) an operator upon b. 2016-05-13T02:30:04Z Nuri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T02:31:46Z mmastic: White_Flame: I don't think all functions work this way, but some do, and when they do, it's nice to be consistent. This is all I'm talking about. And Zhivago, I don't know what you're trying to do, but I believe you that you're a smart person. 2016-05-13T02:31:56Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:32:24Z Bike: well, ok, whatever. point is, i don't think there was any conscious design intent for whatever you mean. don't be surprised if you have to use rcurry instead. 2016-05-13T02:33:16Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:33:29Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:33:38Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:33:59Z mmastic: So it seems. Thanks. 2016-05-13T02:34:07Z White_Flame: Given that the map* functions are (mapc lists....) I would put the "singular" emphasis on the function, and the lists as lesser parameters, as they can be variable. I view reduce at al that way as well 2016-05-13T02:34:13Z j0ni quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-13T02:34:15Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:34:24Z White_Flame: et al* 2016-05-13T02:34:51Z j0ni joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:35:02Z White_Flame: so in my preferential view, reduce does not have the "primary" parameter at the end 2016-05-13T02:35:21Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:36:25Z mmastic: White_Flame: I'll explain that better 2016-05-13T02:39:30Z TDT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:43:58Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:47:44Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:47:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:47:44Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T02:47:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:48:17Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:49:41Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:52:51Z mrcom_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-13T02:56:12Z mmastic: Actually maybe in the future, sorry. What I wanted to point out though is that if you read even basic Haskell code, you'll see a lot of function composition and it's possible (without constant "flip"s) because of this ordering. It's usually obvious: like, if I have a lookup function on a hash table. To me personally (after a long time in this programming style) it's obvious on reduce too, but you would be right to argue that a reduce co 2016-05-13T02:56:15Z mmastic: as the function, but it's not as composable. This is why it's so obvious with currying. I did not argue anything about this specifically for CL, since it doesn't do that. I just wanted to know if when it's obvious, what would be a good way to be consistent. 2016-05-13T02:56:18Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-13T02:56:35Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T02:56:35Z unbalancedparen quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-13T02:56:47Z mmastic: Thank you guys anyway. See you. 2016-05-13T02:58:06Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T02:59:56Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:01:04Z mmastic quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T03:01:05Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:01:08Z walter|r quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T03:01:29Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:04:02Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:04:14Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:04:29Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T03:04:38Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:04:57Z ealfonso: (package-install 'clojure-mode)==> *** Eval error *** http://melpa.org/packages/clojure-mode-20160226.956.el: Not found ... is this down for anyone else? 2016-05-13T03:05:35Z Bike: ealfonso: maybe you want #emacs 2016-05-13T03:06:13Z ealfonso: ok 2016-05-13T03:08:22Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T03:13:05Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:16:03Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-13T03:16:32Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:19:12Z axion: is there a pathname function in the standard or uiop that will return a string representing the filename? /some/dir/here/file.ext => "file.ext" 2016-05-13T03:19:13Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:19:46Z axion: or rather #P"/some/dir/here/file.ext" => "file.ext" 2016-05-13T03:20:50Z Bike: file-namestring, i think? 2016-05-13T03:21:40Z axion: thank you 2016-05-13T03:22:05Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T03:23:56Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-13T03:24:42Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T03:26:27Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:29:22Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T03:32:17Z fouric: ...would anyone be willing to spend a few minutes helping me sort out a package/system issue? 2016-05-13T03:32:40Z fouric: I have a minimal example ready, if anyone has the time 2016-05-13T03:34:51Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:35:52Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:37:52Z Bike: go ahead and post it 2016-05-13T03:37:52Z fouric: (/c 2016-05-13T03:37:59Z fouric: Cool 2016-05-13T03:41:55Z jasom quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-13T03:42:31Z fouric: Here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315901 2016-05-13T03:42:49Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T03:42:56Z fouric: The problem is that "run" in package "bar" is calling itself instead of "foo:run" 2016-05-13T03:43:33Z fouric: ...and yet, shouldn't the `in-package`s at the top of bar.lisp and foo.lisp mean that the respective definitions of "run" are in the correct packages? 2016-05-13T03:44:45Z Bike: if i'm not mistaken, it's because the first "run" in bar.lisp resolves as being foo:run, so the defun actually redefines foo:run. 2016-05-13T03:45:34Z warweasle quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T03:46:18Z fouric: Wait, but how could it possibly be foo:run? 2016-05-13T03:46:41Z Bike: because you're in the bar package, which USEs the foo package. 2016-05-13T03:46:42Z fouric: The `defun` is occuring in the `bar` package, right? 2016-05-13T03:47:12Z fouric: Don't I still have to specify that I'm using something in FOO, though? 2016-05-13T03:47:29Z Bike: no, USEing is for making it so you don't have to put a prefix. 2016-05-13T03:47:35Z fouric: Ohhh... 2016-05-13T03:47:42Z fouric: Well, there's the problem. 2016-05-13T03:47:46Z fouric: So what's the solution? 2016-05-13T03:48:02Z fouric: I assume that there's a thing that allows me to access FOO by explicitly naming things inside of it 2016-05-13T03:48:04Z Bike: you could have bar not USE foo, or you could write (defun bar:run () ...) 2016-05-13T03:48:23Z Bike: among other possibilities. 2016-05-13T03:48:32Z Naraka quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-13T03:49:25Z fouric: Well, I wrote defun bar:run and it still recursed infinitely... 2016-05-13T03:49:48Z fouric: Hm 2016-05-13T03:50:01Z Bike: did you clear everything first? if not, then that would be because the definition of foo:run is still the broken one. 2016-05-13T03:50:33Z fouric: I did, I fired up a fresh SBCL and it still failed 2016-05-13T03:50:36Z fouric: However! 2016-05-13T03:50:48Z fouric: Changing the package definition to not USE foo worked! 2016-05-13T03:50:57Z fouric: Interesting 2016-05-13T03:51:08Z fouric: Thanks for your help, Bike! I learned a thing today 2016-05-13T03:52:06Z fouric: ...and what do you know, I applied the change to the real code and it worked too. 2016-05-13T03:52:12Z fouric: \o/ 2016-05-13T03:52:43Z cmbntr joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:53:28Z Bike: oh. my mistake, bar:run will not work, yes. because of the USEing, bar:run _is_ foo:run, you can't have them be distinct symbols. 2016-05-13T03:54:42Z fouric: bar:run *is* foo:run? 2016-05-13T03:54:55Z fouric: ...as in `eq` "is" or a different type? 2016-05-13T03:55:07Z Bike: as in they are eq. the same. 2016-05-13T03:56:19Z Bike: or put another way, whenever "RUN" is read in the BAR package, a symbol from FOO will be returned. 2016-05-13T03:56:39Z Bike: which is what useing does, but i forgot. 2016-05-13T03:57:32Z fouric: That is so weird 2016-05-13T03:58:02Z fouric: I didn't even know that you could do that 2016-05-13T03:58:06Z Bike: it's probably less confusing than shadow stuff would be, really 2016-05-13T03:58:17Z fouric: "Shadow stuff"? 2016-05-13T03:58:22Z Bike: shadowing 2016-05-13T03:58:44Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T03:59:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-13T03:59:21Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:00:06Z fouric searches, finds something in PCL 2016-05-13T04:00:27Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:00:46Z fouric: Thank you, Bike! You really save me a metric ton of frustration 2016-05-13T04:00:53Z Bike: gladly 2016-05-13T04:01:01Z Zhivago: Metric tons are the least frustrating. 2016-05-13T04:01:19Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:02:45Z fouric has actually gone through imperial tonnes of frustration 2016-05-13T04:02:56Z fouric: Can confirm, highly unpleasant. 2016-05-13T04:04:55Z Bike: "saved me thousands of slugs of frustration" 2016-05-13T04:05:21Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:05:56Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:06:27Z Zhivago: "saved me a milliard fluid ounces of vexation" 2016-05-13T04:11:01Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:12:41Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T04:16:46Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:18:39Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:20:47Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:20:51Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:20:54Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T04:21:01Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:21:03Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:21:07Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-13T04:24:27Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:27:00Z ealfonso quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:28:23Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:28:39Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:29:46Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-13T04:30:18Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:32:20Z ealfonso joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:34:28Z sqglz joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:35:08Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:37:58Z unbalancedparen: k 2016-05-13T04:43:58Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:49:03Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:51:13Z ealfonso quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T04:51:18Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:51:36Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-13T04:52:59Z mach quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T04:54:08Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:54:45Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:55:55Z malbertife joined #lisp 2016-05-13T04:57:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-13T05:02:49Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:03:04Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:03:56Z wizzo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T05:03:56Z wizzo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:04:43Z mach joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:07:14Z bigfoot111 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:08:50Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:09:26Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:09:32Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:10:53Z Harag quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-13T05:15:02Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:15:10Z jsmith__ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:15:13Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:16:05Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:17:23Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:23:04Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:23:55Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-13T05:25:01Z wheelsucker joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:25:40Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T05:26:03Z akkad: morning beach 2016-05-13T05:35:33Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:40:43Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:46:09Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:48:33Z jsmith__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T05:48:34Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:48:52Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:49:47Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:50:54Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:51:03Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:51:06Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T05:51:42Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T05:52:45Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T05:58:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T05:58:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:58:24Z jsmith__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T05:58:52Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T05:59:40Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-13T06:04:26Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:05:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:07:49Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T06:11:02Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:12:15Z knobo hopes everything is ok with Eitaro Fukamachi 2016-05-13T06:12:53Z akkad: url? 2016-05-13T06:15:25Z sulky_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:15:56Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-13T06:17:30Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:21:19Z yeticry quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T06:21:26Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:22:47Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:22:56Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:23:02Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:25:19Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:25:53Z yeticry joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:25:55Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:27:37Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:27:44Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:29:36Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:29:40Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:29:53Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-05-13T06:30:02Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:30:31Z fourier quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T06:31:36Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-13T06:33:22Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:39:32Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:43:55Z aeth: akkad: http://8arrow.org/ is down, which is his website according to https://github.com/fukamachi/ 2016-05-13T06:44:13Z aeth: I noticed earlier today when I tried to access a link from there 2016-05-13T06:45:09Z aeth: I am not sure if knobo has more information 2016-05-13T06:45:10Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:48:15Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:49:14Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:51:08Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:52:13Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:52:40Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T06:54:34Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:54:51Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-13T06:58:36Z jackdaniel: lisp-lang.org (get excited by Fernando Borretti) 2016-05-13T07:01:46Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T07:02:29Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:05:04Z noark9 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:05:33Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T07:05:49Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:06:00Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:06:08Z akkad: "lisp, like my dna, is forced on others" 2016-05-13T07:07:42Z akkad: Unhandled exception 11 at 0x41d850, context->regs at #x7f0c9f4b9648 2016-05-13T07:07:47Z akkad: ccl dislikes this xeon 2016-05-13T07:08:45Z potatoe joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:08:46Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:08:56Z potatoe: hello, is there a dedicated channel for issues pertaining to sbcl? 2016-05-13T07:09:18Z jackdaniel: potatoe: if it's sbcl-specific, the #sbcl is theirs channel 2016-05-13T07:09:26Z jackdaniel: but many simple problems with sbcl may be solved here as well 2016-05-13T07:09:54Z potatoe: jackdaniel i've a few tests always failing 2016-05-13T07:10:01Z potatoe: I need the sbcl specific devs for this I think 2016-05-13T07:10:01Z potatoe: https://bpaste.net/show/d5dd52346204 2016-05-13T07:10:08Z jackdaniel: then it's definetely something for #sbcl 2016-05-13T07:10:29Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:11:25Z potatoe: cheers jackdaniel 2016-05-13T07:11:28Z potatoe left #lisp 2016-05-13T07:11:46Z jackdaniel: cheers :) 2016-05-13T07:12:11Z akkad: potatoe which os? 2016-05-13T07:12:11Z Largeaux joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:12:41Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:16:32Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:16:37Z zacharias_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:17:14Z Largeaux quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:20:19Z sulky_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:23:14Z akkad: (declare (optimize speed (safety 1) (debug 0))) ;; this valid? some lisps take it, others don't 2016-05-13T07:23:58Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:25:39Z Bike: it's valid, it means (speed 3). any lisp that doesn't allow that is wron 2016-05-13T07:26:47Z akkad: k. mlisp Error: This declare form is not in a place declares are allowed: 2016-05-13T07:27:07Z Bike: that is a different error. what is mlisp? 2016-05-13T07:27:12Z Bike: and where are you using this? 2016-05-13T07:27:12Z loke: akkad: That's because you have put the DECLARE in the wrong place 2016-05-13T07:27:26Z akkad: the author of cl-store did :P 2016-05-13T07:27:28Z akkad: mlisp is allegro 2016-05-13T07:28:17Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:28:39Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:28:48Z akkad: https://github.com/skypher/cl-store/blob/master/default-backend.lisp#L81 2016-05-13T07:29:15Z loke: akkad: Looks like an OK declaration. Whst Lisp are you using? 2016-05-13T07:29:48Z akkad: allegro mlisp 2016-05-13T07:29:59Z loke: I never heard of mlisp 2016-05-13T07:30:06Z loke: is it different from their normal Lisp? 2016-05-13T07:30:23Z akkad: allegro has alisp, mlisp, and allegro. mlisp is the modern one 2016-05-13T07:30:34Z loke: "modern"? 2016-05-13T07:30:49Z akkad: I know it's not LW, and LW is what everyone here uses instead of allegro. 2016-05-13T07:31:05Z loke: akkad: I think most people here use SBCL to be honest. 2016-05-13T07:31:29Z loke: But Allegro is so expensive that I'm sure you can get an imemdiate answer by talking to their support? 2016-05-13T07:32:21Z Bike: is mlisp "modern mode"? because i thought that was just a different reader 2016-05-13T07:33:00Z akkad: loke, yeah chaching every time one calls :P 2016-05-13T07:33:07Z akkad: cha-ching 2016-05-13T07:33:31Z akkad: loke: ahh, never see the http://franz.com/support/documentation/8.1/ansicl/ansicl.htm copy of CLHS used or the SBCL one. just LW. clearly a bias 2016-05-13T07:33:37Z Bike: you should definitely be able to put a declaration in a method body, so i don't know what the deal is. 2016-05-13T07:33:50Z Bike: that's just an upload of the standard, it's not specific to any implementation. 2016-05-13T07:34:27Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-13T07:35:43Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:36:33Z akkad: well the logic is it costs more than sbcl, so it is most likely faster in real world work loads. -boss 2016-05-13T07:37:13Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:37:48Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:37:56Z akkad: actually if we had an alternative to allegrocache I'm sure it would get dropped 2016-05-13T07:45:58Z mood: akkad: The fact that you normally see LW links is that that is the original HyperSpec. It's not LW specific 2016-05-13T07:46:13Z mood: SBCL doesn't have its own copy of the spec like that 2016-05-13T07:49:03Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:49:19Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:49:40Z varjag: harlequin paid for hyperspec creation when kmp was there iirc 2016-05-13T07:49:44Z varjag: but otherwise yes 2016-05-13T07:49:54Z varjag: it's just a usefully formatted text of ansi spec 2016-05-13T07:50:42Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:51:15Z jackdaniel: someone with enough willingness may take the tex sources of the last draft (which are public domain) and build his own spec 2016-05-13T07:51:45Z jackdaniel: (unless I am mistaken a little ;) 2016-05-13T07:51:50Z Devon joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:51:57Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T07:52:15Z varjag: probably 2016-05-13T07:52:32Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T07:53:49Z Guest38804 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T07:54:17Z IPmonger 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the .app folder 2016-05-13T10:05:28Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:05:28Z vydd: I tried using install_name_tool, but it says something about __LINKEDIT segment not covering the end of the filename, and (very little) stuff I found on google suggested I should modify the binary to correct that 2016-05-13T10:06:06Z vydd: so, I stumbled upon http://www.xach.com/lisp/lispvan-2008-02-28.pdf and I was wondering if MachO handling library from that presentation is available somewhere 2016-05-13T10:06:58Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:09:55Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:10:08Z sup5 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:10:24Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:11:29Z wheelsucker quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T10:11:46Z sup5: how does one redefine the number of parameters in a defgeneric? as in: previously (defgeneric f (a)) to new (defgeneric f (a b)) 2016-05-13T10:11:54Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T10:12:34Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:12:52Z jackdaniel: sup5: you either fmakunbound f first, or if on sbcl you may just reevaluate the defgeneric statement 2016-05-13T10:15:22Z john-mcaleely quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:15:40Z sup5: jackdaniel: thank you - fmakunbound does the trick. SBCL barfs on re-evaluation if there are already methods defined with the old lambda list. 2016-05-13T10:16:14Z jackdaniel: fmakeunbound is batter either way (more portable) 2016-05-13T10:16:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T10:16:42Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:20:59Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:26:27Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:28:14Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:29:36Z phoe_work joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:29:48Z nopf joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:35:23Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-05-13T10:35:37Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:40:41Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:43:57Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:44:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:51:14Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:53:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:54:16Z hydraz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T10:55:36Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-13T10:55:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:01:58Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:03:45Z knobo: http://quickdocs.org/ is down. 2016-05-13T11:03:52Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T11:04:23Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:06:23Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:07:01Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-13T11:07:52Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:11:41Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:12:05Z jackdaniel: knobo: yes, as well as other Etario's websites 2016-05-13T11:12:09Z jackdaniel: maybe a server failure 2016-05-13T11:12:30Z jackdaniel: Eitaro's° 2016-05-13T11:13:19Z jackdaniel: hm, it looks more like a domain just isn't renewed 2016-05-13T11:13:54Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-13T11:15:09Z noark9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T11:15:53Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:22:21Z faheem quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-13T11:24:23Z _bogdanm_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:25:56Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:27:42Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:28:43Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:29:35Z phoe_work: Is eudoxia catchable on the IRC? 2016-05-13T11:30:30Z ^bogdanm^ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:31:07Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:34:27Z _bogdanm_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:36:18Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:38:33Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:39:11Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-13T11:40:25Z mood: phoe_work: Yes, but I don't think he's online too often 2016-05-13T11:40:48Z phoe_work: mood: http://lisp-lang.org/spec/ 2016-05-13T11:41:05Z phoe_work: Someone on #lisp-pl pointed this out to me and I went like "omg deja vu". 2016-05-13T11:41:06Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:41:43Z phoe_work: I poked him on lisp-lang's GitHub about it. I hope we end up cooperating to fight off the Lisp curse. 2016-05-13T11:41:48Z mood: phoe_work: The source is here, https://github.com/LispLang/ansi-spec 2016-05-13T11:41:55Z mood: You've already starred it, I see 2016-05-13T11:42:02Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:42:19Z phoe_work: mood: I know the source is there, I pulled the source for CLUS from there, 2016-05-13T11:42:35Z phoe_work: I utilized it to make the original CLUS wiki markup files. 2016-05-13T11:43:09Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:43:36Z rszeno joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:44:30Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:47:01Z jaerme joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:48:56Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:49:32Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T11:49:43Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:53:51Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:54:44Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:56:25Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T11:56:27Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:57:51Z araujo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T11:59:00Z john-mcaleely joined #lisp 2016-05-13T11:59:47Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:00:15Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:04:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:07:27Z flip214: I've got an SBCL question - inlining of LABELS, in case someone wants to help me. 2016-05-13T12:07:29Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315917 2016-05-13T12:07:39Z phoe_work: flip214: #sbcl might be of more help, just in case! 2016-05-13T12:07:44Z flip214: basically what a macro gave me, but cleaned up a bit. 2016-05-13T12:08:05Z flip214: phoe_work: yeah, thanks. their topic says "but if #lisp can't solve it" ;) 2016-05-13T12:09:00Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:09:22Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T12:09:30Z phoe_work: xD 2016-05-13T12:09:32Z phoe_work: I see 2016-05-13T12:14:44Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:16:04Z dxtr quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:16:40Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:17:16Z lieven quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:19:33Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:22:32Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:22:51Z dxtr joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:22:52Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:24:16Z phoe_work_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:24:50Z phoe_work quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:29:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:29:25Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:29:50Z lieven joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:33:44Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-13T12:34:08Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:35:03Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:36:01Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T12:36:02Z lieven joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:36:51Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:36:54Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:37:09Z jaerme_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:37:48Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:39:08Z jaerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:45:21Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:45:25Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:45:39Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:46:17Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:52:04Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:55:39Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T12:58:50Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T12:59:50Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:01:41Z wglb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:02:32Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:03:24Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:03:35Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:05:39Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T13:06:49Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:08:48Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:09:04Z developernotes joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:09:36Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T13:10:28Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:10:36Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:12:47Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-13T13:15:23Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:19:02Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:22:02Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:25:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:27:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:30:54Z ehu joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:35:12Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:37:24Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T13:37:39Z phoe_work_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-13T13:41:06Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-13T13:41:07Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T13:41:07Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:41:18Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:42:33Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:47:46Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T13:50:13Z ^bogdanm^ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T13:50:31Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:55:28Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:55:31Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T13:58:17Z ehu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T13:58:37Z _bogdanm_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T13:59:04Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T14:01:02Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-13T14:01:15Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-13T14:02:00Z bogdanm quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T14:02:04Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T14:03:46Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T14:04:09Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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Now I have to figure out what to do next. 2016-05-13T15:59:50Z beach: ... not that there is a lack of things to do. But priorities have to be set. 2016-05-13T16:00:00Z malbertife quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:00:22Z jackdaniel: write all down in points, it would be easier to figure them out 2016-05-13T16:00:41Z jackdaniel: (by "them" I mean priorities) 2016-05-13T16:01:02Z malbertife_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:01:16Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:01:19Z beach: That's true. But there are so many of them, it will take considerable time in itself. Not a big problem, of course. 2016-05-13T16:01:51Z jackdaniel: it's a matter of granularity I suppose (but I don't know what do you have on your plate right now) 2016-05-13T16:03:15Z beach: Sure. Telling you everything would be seen as spamming the channel. :) 2016-05-13T16:04:14Z beach: jackdaniel: What are you planning to work on next. 2016-05-13T16:04:20Z beach: s/./?/ 2016-05-13T16:04:37Z jackdaniel: well, I'm finishing cleanup of cl-bench (it's asdf loadable system now with more accurate statistics) 2016-05-13T16:04:53Z jackdaniel: after that I want to do benchmarks and release the next ecl quarterly 2016-05-13T16:05:13Z beach: Sounds good. 2016-05-13T16:05:15Z jackdaniel: next thing is doing similar thing to ansi-tests (further cleanup and making it asdf friendly) 2016-05-13T16:05:22Z jackdaniel: a lot of stuff to do with ecl 2016-05-13T16:05:32Z jackdaniel: woah, it seems that I have to plan things too 2016-05-13T16:05:33Z jackdaniel: ;) 2016-05-13T16:05:43Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:05:55Z beach: Sorry, didn't mean to do that to you. :) 2016-05-13T16:06:31Z jackdaniel: nah, I'm excited with each thing. It's just a never-ending story, so priorities are a must 2016-05-13T16:07:31Z jackdaniel: either way I've got to go. See you later o/ 2016-05-13T16:07:41Z beach: Sure. Take care. 2016-05-13T16:08:08Z moore33: beach: Hey! Are you back in town? 2016-05-13T16:08:27Z beach: Yes, since late last night. Trying to deal with accumulated admin stuff. 2016-05-13T16:08:52Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:10:56Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:13:00Z StephanLahl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T16:15:46Z StephanLahl joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:15:46Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T16:16:49Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:17:40Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:20:57Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:21:00Z StephanLahl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T16:21:03Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:21:48Z phoe_krk: Evening! 2016-05-13T16:22:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:25:36Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T16:25:45Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:26:42Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:26:54Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:27:13Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T16:27:51Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-13T16:27:54Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:28:03Z StephanLahl joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:28:10Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:28:21Z StephanLahl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:29:40Z StephanLahl joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:30:11Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:33:34Z warweasle: zkat: Do you still want to maintain squirl? 2016-05-13T16:33:38Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:33:59Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-13T16:36:00Z krypt joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:38:33Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:39:12Z Devon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:40:21Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:40:22Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T16:40:22Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:42:28Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-13T16:42:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:44:28Z ejbs joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:48:26Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:49:29Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:49:44Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:51:17Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:51:51Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-13T16:52:24Z drmeister: What does it mean to canonicalize declarations? Does it mean (declare (special a b c) (special e f)) --> (declare (special a) (special b) (special c) (special d) (special e)) ? 2016-05-13T16:53:15Z akkad: rucksack ftw. 2016-05-13T16:53:25Z drmeister: Likewise any other declaration that can be grouped like (whatchamacallit [whatchamahuzits]+) 2016-05-13T16:53:26Z akkad: wish I knew about this package sooner 2016-05-13T16:54:16Z jsmith__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T16:54:30Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:54:45Z drmeister: And if so I guess that canonicalization means (declare (special a)) (declare (ignore b)) --> (declare (special a) (ignore b)) 2016-05-13T16:55:17Z drmeister: I'm proceeding to implement something in C++ that does the above - please somebody stop me if I'm off base. 2016-05-13T16:55:25Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-13T16:55:47Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:56:23Z l1x quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:23Z |2701 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:23Z asedeno quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:23Z zkat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:23Z dwynwen_ddlleyw quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T16:56:24Z fUD quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:24Z banjiewen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:24Z lispyone quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:24Z pootler_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:24Z Neet quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T16:56:39Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:57:25Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:57:57Z unbalanced joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:58:43Z d4ryus is now known as Guest555 2016-05-13T16:58:43Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:58:43Z Guest555 quit (Killed (tepper.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-13T16:58:43Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-13T16:58:58Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-13T16:58:59Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T16:59:02Z drmeister: I found this in CLTLv2 page 208: 2016-05-13T16:59:03Z drmeister: http://i.imgur.com/E24FjB7.png 2016-05-13T16:59:30Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:02:04Z phoe_krk: drmeister: I remember seeing *something* about this in the beginning of AMOP book. I'll take a look and let you know. 2016-05-13T17:02:46Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:02:48Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T17:03:47Z drmeister: That's helpful - something in AMOP. Don't put too much time into it - I'll be home in a few hours and I can look it up in my tattered version. 2016-05-13T17:03:55Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:04:45Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:05:59Z phoe_krk: Should be there in the very beginning, something about canonicalizing elements of a class and/or instance. 2016-05-13T17:06:04Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-13T17:06:14Z phoe_krk: I doubt it means exactly what it means in your context, but it could give you a clue. 2016-05-13T17:07:06Z unbalanced quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-13T17:07:43Z Bike: drmeister: i don't know that the standard defines any "canonicalization" of declarations 2016-05-13T17:08:11Z Bike: drmeister: the cltl2 thing could just be, like, making (declare (optimize speed)) be a (speed 3) and such, since the cltl2 accessors don't return declaration forms anyway 2016-05-13T17:08:37Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:09:13Z drmeister: Yeah - I was asking myself questions along those lines - nothing but my code will see these "canonicalized declarations" - so I'm free to do what I please. 2016-05-13T17:10:06Z phoe_krk: drmeister: then, I guess, something that you can call the "representative version" of the declarations. 2016-05-13T17:10:13Z drmeister: All that the CLTLv2 says is that if you provide the environment accessing protocol they describe that you may get back something different than what was put in - but it has to be equivalent. 2016-05-13T17:10:15Z phoe_krk: Something that's the easiest to parse and utilize for you. 2016-05-13T17:10:44Z Bike: defining a canonical form for declarations would be opposed to the standard's yolo philosophy on decls anyway 2016-05-13T17:11:00Z jsmith__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T17:11:06Z phoe_krk: drmeister: I think that something along the lines of (declare (foo bar) (baz quux)) === (declare (foo bar)) (declare (baz quux)), they're equivalent I think despite being different sexpr trees. 2016-05-13T17:11:21Z Bike: they are equivalent 2016-05-13T17:11:33Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:11:47Z drmeister: Yeah - that sounds fine. 2016-05-13T17:11:49Z drmeister: Ok - thanks. 2016-05-13T17:12:58Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T17:13:09Z drmeister 's shouldn't be coding in his current state, but nobody can stop him! Ha ha ha ha! 2016-05-13T17:13:10Z varjagg joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:13:16Z drmeister: There's always git. 2016-05-13T17:13:20Z pootler_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:13:38Z Xach: without a net 2016-05-13T17:13:45Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T17:14:04Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:15:02Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:15:23Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:15:27Z jsmith___ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:16:19Z jsmith__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:17:44Z fUD joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:18:42Z zkat joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:18:59Z warweasle: zkat: Hello 2016-05-13T17:19:24Z zkat: warweasle: no, not really :P 2016-05-13T17:20:13Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:20:14Z jsmith___ quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:22:44Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:23:35Z jackdaniel: what do you think about such approach for measuring time with the metering system? http://paste.lisp.org/display/315928 (just a sketch, for now it uses only get-internal-run-time and get-cons, both as an inlined macros) 2016-05-13T17:25:14Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:26:37Z lispyone joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:27:03Z ehu joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:28:10Z warweasle: zkat: Ok. I was thinking I could take it. I've done a little work on it. It should work well for my game. 2016-05-13T17:28:38Z zkat: I mean, you're free to fork, and tell @Xach to pull it from your fork for QL instead :) 2016-05-13T17:28:54Z zkat: I can give you access to my repo, but then it'd look like i'm the one still maintaining it 2016-05-13T17:29:23Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:30:13Z warweasle: zkat: That will work. 2016-05-13T17:31:06Z zkat: (the above message is hopefully enough to get him to be ok with switching the project he points to) 2016-05-13T17:31:55Z warweasle: zkat: Do you want me to send you pull requests? 2016-05-13T17:32:22Z zkat: probably unnecessary -- I'll take a pull request adding something to the readme that points to your fork, though! 2016-05-13T17:35:21Z dwynwen_ddlleyw joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:36:07Z warweasle: zkat: Thanks! It's nice to have a pure lisp physics library. 2016-05-13T17:36:55Z Guest38804 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T17:40:20Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:42:51Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:44:13Z ehu1 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:44:54Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:45:08Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:45:20Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:46:13Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:46:44Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:46:49Z ehu quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:48:13Z Xach: hooray 2016-05-13T17:48:19Z Xach: so pure 2016-05-13T17:49:11Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:49:48Z ejbs left #lisp 2016-05-13T17:50:11Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:50:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T17:51:42Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:52:08Z jsmith__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T17:52:24Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:52:24Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:55:59Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:57:04Z jackdaniel: luis: are you around? 2016-05-13T17:57:56Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:58:40Z blub joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:59:45Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-05-13T17:59:52Z fouric: zkat! Thanks for starting the project to begin with! I think that I'm going to use it in my next project 2016-05-13T18:00:50Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:01:58Z dwchandler: PuercoPop: I keep forgetting that you're on lobsters until I see you post again :) 2016-05-13T18:05:13Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:08:48Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:08:53Z fourier quit (Changing host) 2016-05-13T18:08:53Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:09:16Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:10:04Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:11:49Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:13:18Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:13:27Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:14:43Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-13T18:14:55Z baremetal__ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:16:15Z tippenein joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:16:47Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:18:09Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:19:12Z nalik89 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:20:24Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:20:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:22:39Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:26:11Z nalik89 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:27:23Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T18:28:35Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:28:43Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:29:19Z baremetal__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:31:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:33:05Z fouric: What is the "right" way to enforce that arguments to a function are of a certain type? 2016-05-13T18:33:15Z fouric: `assert`, `etypecase`, etc.? 2016-05-13T18:33:23Z blub: check-type 2016-05-13T18:33:54Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:33:54Z fouric: Thanks! 2016-05-13T18:34:06Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:34:17Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:34:18Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:35:18Z pbgc quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/) 2016-05-13T18:37:34Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:38:07Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:38:29Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:38:45Z nalik89 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T18:38:52Z emaczen quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T18:39:06Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:42:04Z sjl: is there a way to tell 5am to check that something throws an error? like (is-error 'simple-error (assert nil)) 2016-05-13T18:43:17Z jackdaniel: sjl: I think its (signals …) 2016-05-13T18:43:28Z jackdaniel: but you have to verify that (not entirely sure) 2016-05-13T18:43:30Z sjl: aha 2016-05-13T18:43:40Z sjl: yea I was looking for something like is-... 2016-05-13T18:44:37Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:44:49Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:45:12Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:45:33Z sjl: thanks 2016-05-13T18:45:44Z drmeister: You Europeans know how to run airlines on time. I flew 6 flights in Europe and they were all on time or early. My one domestic flight back - delayed. 2016-05-13T18:45:50Z drmeister: Good job! 2016-05-13T18:46:29Z jackdaniel: yeah, thanks! (/me schedules another plane) :p 2016-05-13T18:46:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:46:40Z warweasle: drmeister: Trump has promised to make the planes run on time. 2016-05-13T18:47:20Z warweasle couldn't help himself. Sorry. 2016-05-13T18:48:05Z drmeister fears it will be at the cost of the republic. 2016-05-13T18:48:29Z random-nick fears it will be at the cost of Mexico 2016-05-13T18:48:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:49:15Z dwchandler: (president-p 'trump) ; => nil 2016-05-13T18:49:48Z random-nick: (trump-mode t) 2016-05-13T18:49:50Z jackdaniel: #| or like that |# (trumpp *president*) ; => nil 2016-05-13T18:49:55Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:50:03Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:50:28Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T18:51:01Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:51:17Z Kruppe quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-13T18:52:44Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:53:05Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-13T18:54:11Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:54:21Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:55:00Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T18:55:36Z Kruppe joined #lisp 2016-05-13T18:57:22Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:00:20Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-13T19:00:40Z warweasle quit (Quit: stuff) 2016-05-13T19:01:24Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:02:23Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:05:58Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:07:35Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:08:47Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:09:39Z Don_John joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:09:53Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T19:10:03Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:10:09Z Don_John quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T19:10:28Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T19:11:27Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:12:13Z cagmz joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:13:04Z Axord joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:13:07Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-05-13T19:13:30Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:13:38Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-13T19:14:33Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:14:41Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:14:47Z Harag1 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-13T19:14:47Z Harag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T19:17:57Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:18:33Z Oddity: That's a relief 2016-05-13T19:19:22Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:20:26Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:24:07Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:24:13Z ehu1 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T19:24:40Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:24:46Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T19:24:52Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:29:07Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:31:39Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:33:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:34:24Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T19:36:00Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:37:53Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:39:01Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:41:30Z MorTal1ty joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:42:23Z ggole quit 2016-05-13T19:47:09Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:49:53Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:51:17Z PuercoPop: dwchandler: yeah, I post infrequently there. 2016-05-13T19:51:42Z dwchandler: PuercoPop: Nice when you do 2016-05-13T19:53:14Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:56:23Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-13T19:57:18Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T19:57:19Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T20:01:13Z random-nick quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-13T20:02:33Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:04:32Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-13T20:04:57Z aphprentice_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:05:24Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:06:37Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:07:03Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-13T20:14:10Z Whymind quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-13T20:16:50Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:17:27Z emaczen: I'm calling (random 1.0 * int) in a loop in a method -- each time I call the method, I get the same set of numbers... I tried calling (setf *random-state* (make-random-state t)) too 2016-05-13T20:17:46Z emaczen: I don't want the same set of numbers 2016-05-13T20:20:06Z jaerme_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-13T20:20:29Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:21:17Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-13T20:23:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:26:20Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:26:41Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-13T20:27:41Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:28:33Z emaczen: I think It might because I'm C-c C-c ing forms 2016-05-13T20:30:50Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:31:26Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-13T20:33:01Z clique is now known as SkatingAway 2016-05-13T20:33:41Z python476: kudos on the new website 2016-05-13T20:33:59Z python476: spent the last 7 minutes trying to clean my lcd ... gave up thinking the panel was dead 2016-05-13T20:35:27Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-13T20:37:53Z ukari joined #lisp 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2016-05-14T00:33:27Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T00:35:07Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T00:37:10Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T00:37:10Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T00:37:24Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T00:37:24Z dormammu: anyone doing a lisp absed startup e commece? 2016-05-14T00:37:33Z dormammu: Are there any chat apps like irc done in lisp? 2016-05-14T00:37:42Z dormammu: anyone have a lisp pwoered chat site online now? 2016-05-14T00:38:21Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T00:39:34Z guicho: idk, sorry 2016-05-14T00:39:52Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-14T00:48:26Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T00:55:24Z akkad: Error: RUCKSACK::PROCESS-LOCK not implemented for anything other than SBCL. 2016-05-14T00:57:20Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:01:23Z aeth: I guess I should have finished one of my IRC bot projects the 6 or so times I started them because apparently bots are in style now. 2016-05-14T01:02:12Z akkad: I would not call them bots. that's like calling a bed "ergonomic" 2016-05-14T01:02:17Z akkad: neither involve wok. 2016-05-14T01:02:19Z akkad: work 2016-05-14T01:03:29Z aeth: Actually, IRC bots can get quite elaborate if you want to include something like a calculator. They're like command line applications with additional constraints, such as only having one line of output and not being able to take a long time to produce a result, and being shared by multiple people, some of whom might try to break a sandbox that's there. 2016-05-14T01:03:48Z aeth: And really, that's just a calculator, one of the easiest things you can write in most programming languages. 2016-05-14T01:03:55Z aeth: There are other more complex modules, too. 2016-05-14T01:04:56Z aeth: But nowadays, I think chatbots are expected to have some degree of NLP, so instead of having the users learn syntax, it tries to guess what you mean. So... to carry the calculator example further, people want stuff like Wolfram-Alpha, rather than like the Unix utility dc 2016-05-14T01:05:54Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:06:04Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T01:07:33Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:07:40Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:07:47Z aeth: dormammu: I think one of the Lisp game projects in #lispgames is attempting NLP, which is probably closer to what you'd want than a simple IRC bot, even though it's applied to a game rather than a bot. 2016-05-14T01:09:11Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-14T01:09:56Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:10:15Z aeth: dormammu: A quick search for "common lisp natural language processing" gives me two github projects: https://github.com/vseloved/cl-nlp and https://github.com/eslick/cl-langutils 2016-05-14T01:10:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:12:56Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:23:21Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T01:23:59Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:25:15Z doesthiswork: #lispgames 2016-05-14T01:30:22Z rumbler31 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T01:31:41Z papachan: didnt knew about this site http://lisp-lang.org/ 2016-05-14T01:33:18Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:33:18Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T01:33:36Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:34:07Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:34:14Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:34:16Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:36:16Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T01:36:17Z yo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:36:41Z yo is now known as Guest77436 2016-05-14T01:38:28Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T01:43:20Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T01:43:38Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T01:44:08Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:44:17Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:47:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:47:50Z Guest77436 left #lisp 2016-05-14T01:48:50Z akkad: (let-alist ALIST &rest BODY);; any package provide an equivalent to this from elisp? 2016-05-14T01:48:52Z akkad: 2016-05-14T01:49:35Z Bike: you could define a macro for that in about a line in terms of progv. 2016-05-14T01:50:03Z akkad: k thanks 2016-05-14T01:50:07Z t04utu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:50:22Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:50:26Z akkad: cuts down a lot on the (cdr(assoc ... patterns 2016-05-14T01:50:34Z Bike: (defmacro let-alist (alist &body body) (let ((sym (gensym "ALIST"))) `(let ((,sym ,alist)) (progv (mapcar #'car ,sym) (mapcar #'cdr ,sym) ,@body))) 2016-05-14T01:50:38Z Bike: of course, dynamic bindings. 2016-05-14T01:52:17Z akkad: nice thanks. 2016-05-14T01:54:43Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-14T01:55:58Z akkad: add this to my Pakled tech 2016-05-14T01:58:16Z Bike: it might not work like you expect with variable names 2016-05-14T01:58:53Z akkad: gives me a place to start from. :P 2016-05-14T02:01:44Z jathd: Can you specify which variables you want to bind from the alist? 2016-05-14T02:01:47Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-14T02:02:58Z doesthiswork quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-14T02:03:41Z jathd: As in (let-alist (x y) alist (+ x y)) 2016-05-14T02:04:03Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:04:11Z emaczen: jackdaniel: What is the state of android-ecl? 2016-05-14T02:05:08Z Bike: jathd: that would be a better macro, really, but i don't know if akkad wants it. 2016-05-14T02:05:30Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:07:24Z White_Flame: given that an alist can have overloaded keys, doing an assoc per desired key would be safer 2016-05-14T02:08:00Z White_Flame: and if you did let-alist with to let*, you'd get bindings from later in the list instead of earlier 2016-05-14T02:08:16Z White_Flame: -to 2016-05-14T02:10:39Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:14:52Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:16:30Z snits_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:17:02Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:17:55Z aphprentice quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T02:18:34Z snits joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:21:57Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:22:12Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:23:58Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:29:49Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:31:06Z aeth: I just spent more than an hour trying to get tests working with package-inferred-system. That was a waste of time. 2016-05-14T02:33:39Z snits_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:35:51Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:36:51Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:37:29Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:42:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:42:25Z sigjuice: any suggestions for packages I can look at for examples of code that parses files with nested records? 2016-05-14T02:46:22Z dormammu: Can I just load bunch of lists, lsiten on port, and caculate html response? 2016-05-14T02:46:30Z dormammu: based on subsets fo all the lsits 2016-05-14T02:46:55Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:47:59Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T02:51:03Z dormammu: lisp powered chat site like IRC would rock the net 2016-05-14T02:51:09Z dormammu: ez to use 2016-05-14T02:51:16Z dormammu: chat rooms like old aol chat 2016-05-14T02:51:20Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T02:51:20Z dormammu: awesome 2016-05-14T02:51:57Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:52:28Z blub: lol 2016-05-14T02:53:31Z dormammu: irc sux 2016-05-14T02:53:39Z dormammu: so much garabge printed 2016-05-14T02:53:45Z emaczen: What is the state of ecl-android? 2016-05-14T02:53:49Z dormammu: join exit should not be on by default 2016-05-14T02:53:54Z emaczen: Has anyone done anything with it recently? 2016-05-14T02:56:33Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-14T02:56:54Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:57:30Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T02:58:00Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T02:58:50Z aeth: dormammu: That's a client issue, not an IRC protocol issue... Also, Freenode magnifies the problem of join/part/quit spam due to its large channels full of people who mostly idle. It's not an issue in a lot of places. 2016-05-14T02:59:05Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:00:06Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:00:19Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T03:00:29Z dormammu: html chat compressed 2016-05-14T03:00:34Z dormammu: not even need irc proto 2016-05-14T03:00:36Z dormammu: no? 2016-05-14T03:00:49Z aeth: ? 2016-05-14T03:00:49Z dormammu: maybe time max messge per 5min 2016-05-14T03:00:50Z dormammu: etc 2016-05-14T03:00:59Z dormammu: wouldnt need irc 2016-05-14T03:01:09Z dormammu: but ncie absic html chat with lots of rooms 2016-05-14T03:01:12Z dormammu: be great site 2016-05-14T03:01:13Z aeth: What I'm saying is the garbage being printed is a combination of IRC client behavior (there is no reference client) and Freenode customs. 2016-05-14T03:01:15Z dormammu: everyone loves chat 2016-05-14T03:01:31Z dormammu: be nice to turn extra off 2016-05-14T03:01:37Z dormammu: is there a working web irc client? 2016-05-14T03:01:39Z dormammu: mibbit back? 2016-05-14T03:01:48Z dormammu: irssi is nice but most people wont use 2016-05-14T03:01:50Z aeth: As for HTML chat, that's not really an issue. Anyone can make a centralized chat client. (Whether or not it would be any good is another issue, but generally these sort of things are decided by network effects rather than merit.) 2016-05-14T03:02:03Z dormammu: ease of use 2016-05-14T03:02:04Z aeth: And web IRC, yes, there's lots. 2016-05-14T03:02:10Z dormammu: ease of use always wins 2016-05-14T03:02:38Z jsmith__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T03:02:57Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:03:23Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello, 2016-05-14T03:03:43Z aeth: dormammu: Familiarity and network effects win. Bad, complicated apps frequently win, e.g. Microsoft Office. 2016-05-14T03:04:08Z aeth: You'd be surprised the things people do in Office that are much harder than if they used the right tool for the job. But they do it in Office anyway. 2016-05-14T03:04:50Z dormammu: government also forces a lot 2016-05-14T03:04:56Z dormammu: liek forced defense contractor use ms word 2016-05-14T03:04:59Z dormammu: word blows 2016-05-14T03:05:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:05:08Z dormammu: I dont get why HTML docs are not standard 2016-05-14T03:05:15Z dormammu: html can be read with any browser 2016-05-14T03:05:17Z aries_liuxueyang: I use clozure and slime in emacs. and I install quicklisp and "quicklisp-slime-helper" package. But I can't use (sb-ext:exit) in slime. Anyone knows why? 2016-05-14T03:05:21Z dormammu: easy of use wins 2016-05-14T03:05:30Z dormammu: netwrok effect follow ease of use 2016-05-14T03:05:33Z dormammu: mac is not easiest 2016-05-14T03:05:41Z dormammu: mac harder to use than windows 2016-05-14T03:05:41Z aeth: The programmer equivalent of a bad app is probably bash. Bash is the simplest choice for a few lines, but beyond that its scripts become monsters. After about 100, you might as well be programming in BASIC. 2016-05-14T03:05:42Z emaczen: sb-ext:exit is sbcl specific not clozure commonlisp 2016-05-14T03:05:43Z dormammu: I lvoe iceWM 2016-05-14T03:05:49Z dormammu: iphoen not that great 2016-05-14T03:05:53Z dormammu: oracel a cancer 2016-05-14T03:06:00Z dormammu: iceWM and openbsd very nice 2016-05-14T03:06:07Z dormammu: neve rjvm 2016-05-14T03:06:11Z dormammu: oracle must die 2016-05-14T03:06:15Z aeth: bash isn't the easiest to use, either. Even if you limit it to shells. A modified zsh is probably the easiest. 2016-05-14T03:06:22Z dormammu: bash is actually brilliant 2016-05-14T03:06:28Z aries_liuxueyang: emaczen: Is there something in clozure like sb-ext:exit? 2016-05-14T03:06:31Z dormammu: very very simple and non trick 2016-05-14T03:06:41Z emaczen: aries_liuxueyang: I think just (quit) works 2016-05-14T03:06:43Z dormammu: mroon dont know whotot write 1 script for each thing 2016-05-14T03:07:01Z dormammu: they use case no simply having ifferent scripts/aka rpograms 2016-05-14T03:07:08Z dormammu: charles moore brilliant 2016-05-14T03:07:13Z dormammu: forth awesome 2016-05-14T03:07:16Z aeth: dormammu: Iirc, Steam had a bug where they deleted the user's home directory because of an undefined bash variable. So basically rm -r ~/$something where something didn't exist 2016-05-14T03:07:24Z aeth: dormammu: So yes, bash makes it really easy to wipe out everything 2016-05-14T03:07:28Z emaczen: aries_liuxueyang: I just type "," and select "restart" or "sayoonara" 2016-05-14T03:07:35Z dormammu: well idots wilbe 2016-05-14T03:07:53Z dormammu: I think bash is far nicer than all devops 2016-05-14T03:07:58Z emaczen: typing "," gives you several options -- it might be a specific slime module/package that you have to enable though 2016-05-14T03:08:02Z dormammu: esp echo to inject conf file 2016-05-14T03:08:10Z dormammu: 1 script install whole box 2016-05-14T03:08:13Z aries_liuxueyang: emacszen: ok, thank you very much! 2016-05-14T03:08:15Z dormammu: after clone of thin vm 2016-05-14T03:08:16Z dormammu: baam 2016-05-14T03:09:22Z aeth: When you use a language, you want errors. You don't want undefined behavior that can be destructive. C, (ba)sh, PHP, HTML, etc., are all horrible. Although C compilers catch a lot of the problems these days. 2016-05-14T03:09:36Z aeth: Tools that mess up when you make a typo are great if you never make mistakes. Humans are humans, though. 2016-05-14T03:09:57Z dormammu: the unix tools philosphy is nice 2016-05-14T03:10:19Z dormammu: errors checking shoudl be not so important if you scripts are simpler 2016-05-14T03:10:22Z dormammu: and specialized 2016-05-14T03:10:34Z dormammu: bash allows you to leverage the os packager and tools 2016-05-14T03:10:58Z dormammu: its brilliant when done with echo "whole $config file with few varaibles" >> /etc/someconfig 2016-05-14T03:11:02Z aeth: When I grep a file, I usually do `cat foo | grep "something"' because once I wiped out a log file by doing `grep irc_nick> some-irc-log.log' by mistake 2016-05-14T03:11:04Z dormammu: do that 10 times conig whole box 2016-05-14T03:11:06Z dormammu: no ruby needed 2016-05-14T03:11:10Z dormammu: then clone 2016-05-14T03:11:12Z dormammu: bam 2016-05-14T03:11:22Z aeth: Unix makes it really easy to shoot yourself in the foot 2016-05-14T03:11:31Z dormammu: if you are not smart 2016-05-14T03:11:37Z jsmith__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T03:11:40Z dormammu: and dont test and specialize 2016-05-14T03:11:49Z dormammu: and figth complexity 2016-05-14T03:11:58Z dormammu: werc.cat-v.org 2016-05-14T03:12:02Z dormammu: kinda fascinates me 2016-05-14T03:12:57Z aeth: dormammu: Tests can't catch everything, people don't generally test shell one liners, intelligence isn't a constant (people can be tired, drunk, etc.), certain syntax (especially shell) makes errors way more likely, etc. 2016-05-14T03:13:07Z dormammu: right kep it simple 2016-05-14T03:13:09Z dormammu: no problems 2016-05-14T03:13:15Z dormammu: test a bit b4 use 2016-05-14T03:13:19Z dormammu: and fix things when need to 2016-05-14T03:13:29Z dormammu: errors ar ento a problem when you keep it simple 2016-05-14T03:13:39Z dormammu: error checking should never be part of a script 2016-05-14T03:13:44Z dormammu: your dead fi you have any 2016-05-14T03:13:51Z dormammu: you missed whole reason to use bash 2016-05-14T03:13:54Z dormammu: simplicity 2016-05-14T03:14:00Z dormammu: not endless if then checks 2016-05-14T03:14:11Z dormammu: you should have like 20 things to config 2016-05-14T03:14:32Z dormammu: and inject configs by echo "whole config file with few $x $y" >> /etc/theconfig1 2016-05-14T03:15:32Z dormammu: you totally avoid all those problems 2016-05-14T03:15:52Z aeth: It's not much harder to do (append-file "whatever" #P"/etc/some-config.sxp") assuming someone writes an append-file for a CL REPL 2016-05-14T03:16:03Z dormammu: I barely know lisp. 2016-05-14T03:16:08Z aeth: Except you will never forget a > and overwrite the file, which you can easily do if you're typing bash in a terminal 2016-05-14T03:16:15Z dormammu: I do think it has potential to handle massive amount of data. 2016-05-14T03:16:22Z dormammu: and find subsets quickly 2016-05-14T03:16:38Z dormammu: oh you never type and run 2016-05-14T03:16:47Z dormammu: you put bash stuff in runnable file and test 2016-05-14T03:16:56Z dormammu: on dummy files 2016-05-14T03:18:15Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T03:18:21Z aeth: But if I do apend-file in my hypothetical Lisp shell, I get an error. It's safe without testing. If I do > instead of >>, I overwrite the file. 2016-05-14T03:18:33Z aeth: Lisp is just better for interactive use, especially with parenthesis auto-completion 2016-05-14T03:18:52Z dormammu: as u test on dummy files you will not do that anymore 2016-05-14T03:19:01Z aeth: Also, because I have to put quotes around the strings, it's much clearer what's a string. 2016-05-14T03:19:13Z dormammu: I find it hard to get info in and outa file wit lisp 2016-05-14T03:19:18Z dormammu: and hard to use other shell tools 2016-05-14T03:19:23Z dormammu: or ssh 2016-05-14T03:19:25Z dormammu: with keys 2016-05-14T03:19:30Z dormammu: to mvoe stuff ot tohe rboxen 2016-05-14T03:19:33Z dormammu: nfs can help 2016-05-14T03:19:40Z dormammu: I lvoe rsync too 2016-05-14T03:20:55Z bandrami joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:22:00Z bandrami left #lisp 2016-05-14T03:22:39Z dormammu: charls moore said dont even use conditionals 2016-05-14T03:22:45Z dormammu: have two programs 2016-05-14T03:22:47Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:22:48Z aeth: Now you're proving my point earlier, about how familiarity and network effects drive application usage more than being easy to use. Because so many people use terminals, it's much easier to do something like rsync in a terminal. But it could just as easily be done as a one-liner in a CL REPL, it's just that (probably) no one has bothered to write it. 2016-05-14T03:22:50Z dormammu: A and B 2016-05-14T03:23:08Z dormammu: if lisp is on both ends 2016-05-14T03:23:20Z dormammu: how would you move 1000 files from box A to B with lisp 2016-05-14T03:23:53Z dormammu: and more to point 1000 files that have changed of 10k 2016-05-14T03:23:59Z dormammu: thats where rsync shine 2016-05-14T03:24:07Z dormammu: I never saw lisp do that 2016-05-14T03:24:41Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-14T03:24:57Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-14T03:27:45Z Guest38804 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T03:28:08Z aeth: rsync is written in C, and can be called from CL just like it can be called from bash. Something equivalent could be written in just about any language. Depending on the language, it will probably be slower (perhaps considerably so), but it will almost always also have fewer bugs and a shorter code size than the equivalent C. A CL application that did the same thing would be considerably shorter and wouldn't have to give up as much speed as 2016-05-14T03:28:39Z aeth: writing it in a language like Python would 2016-05-14T03:30:25Z aeth: But there probably isn't an equivalent written in Common Lisp because C won. You can probably include several thousand other useful utilities on that list. And so we deal with buffer overflows and arrays out of bound and memory leaks and longer development time and more LoC per application etc. 2016-05-14T03:31:57Z dormammu: but is it ez? 2016-05-14T03:32:01Z dormammu: python is a pain 2016-05-14T03:32:05Z dormammu: compared to bash 2016-05-14T03:32:08Z dormammu: massively complex 2016-05-14T03:32:11Z dormammu: cant use othe rshell tools 2016-05-14T03:32:31Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T03:33:05Z safe joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:33:13Z dormammu: can you build a website with a just lisp dataabse? 2016-05-14T03:33:27Z dormammu: and do database stuff jsut with lisp data strctures 2016-05-14T03:33:36Z dormammu: and have lisp keep data in ram and point to bobs on disk 2016-05-14T03:34:34Z aeth: Can you? Sure. Should you? No, use postgresql or something else that everyone else uses as your database. All code has bugs. The last thing you want is to discover a bug in your production database. 2016-05-14T03:35:04Z dormammu: postgresql is a huge pile of complexity 2016-05-14T03:35:12Z aeth: Sure it's harder to write bug-free code in C or C++, and those databases aren't bug-free, but they've been updated for a long time and tested extensively. 2016-05-14T03:35:13Z dormammu: and now you have to learn that too 2016-05-14T03:35:27Z dormammu: what about just using lispp 2016-05-14T03:35:29Z dormammu: and its power 2016-05-14T03:35:40Z dormammu: to keep 1 thing you have to learn 2016-05-14T03:35:44Z bandrami joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:36:15Z aeth: dormammu: If you're doing something from scratch in a completely new domain, writing it in Lisp might be easier than writing it in another language. But using something that already exists is usually even easier. 2016-05-14T03:36:25Z aeth: And usually something isn't *completely* from scratch, so there are libraries you can use. 2016-05-14T03:37:23Z aeth: If there's a library that some other language has that Lisp doesn't, it's probably easier in that other language, even if writing that other language's library in Lisp would (usually) be easier than writing that library in that other language. 2016-05-14T03:37:52Z safe quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T03:37:52Z mrcom_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:37:56Z aeth: Code that's already written is easier to use than code you have to write, even if it's easier to write in Lisp. 2016-05-14T03:38:18Z safe joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:38:43Z bandrami: And then you can still often use lisp as a framework and then call whatever foreign executable needs to do the heavy lifting 2016-05-14T03:39:54Z aeth: That's usually the case for C code, but even then it's easier if someone else writes and maintains the wrapper as a library in Quicklisp than if you have to interface with it directly. 2016-05-14T03:40:54Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:42:18Z aeth: Also, using foreign libraries often restricts how you write your Lisp code and how you debug your Lisp code, which takes away some of the advantages of writing it in Lisp. 2016-05-14T03:44:47Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:44:51Z aeth: dormammu: Basically, Lisp isn't some magical shortcut to writing applications faster. Libraries are usually those magical shortcuts, especially big frameworks. 2016-05-14T03:45:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:45:19Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T03:45:27Z bandrami quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-14T03:46:09Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:49:03Z aeth: Lisp has a really good REPL, though. So it's not always the fastest (if it's missing a library that some other language has), but it's usually the most enjoyable. 2016-05-14T03:50:08Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T03:50:09Z aeth: Imo, the larger and more complex the application is, the more Common Lisp shines. 2016-05-14T03:50:13Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:51:12Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:51:12Z dormammu: I find bash mexies so well with other unix utils 2016-05-14T03:53:08Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:53:10Z aeth: dormammu: bash is probably the best choice right now for when you're writing something extremely trivial. It's very dangerous, but it's very concise and well-integrated with a bunch of utilities. Then, once you get into the hundreds of lines territory, the scripting languages really shine because they avoid a lot of the ugliness and danger of shell scripts, even though they usually require some boilerplate before you can get started. 2016-05-14T03:53:36Z aeth: Common Lisp can be used as a scripting language, just like Python or Perl. 2016-05-14T03:54:01Z aeth: Unix makes it easy to run scripts because of the flaws of bash in writing larger applications. 2016-05-14T03:54:24Z dormammu: and very simply 2016-05-14T03:54:31Z dormammu: and very simple 2016-05-14T03:54:35Z dormammu: its served me 20 years 2016-05-14T03:54:45Z dormammu: werc.cat-v.org 2016-05-14T03:54:52Z dormammu: I wana domiante the web with thsi! 2016-05-14T03:55:22Z aeth: If you want to use CL from the terminal, use http://cliki.net/cl-launch 2016-05-14T03:55:36Z gdmalet joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:55:59Z gdmalet is now known as Guest8657 2016-05-14T03:57:24Z aeth: People very rarely write large applications in shell like that 2016-05-14T03:57:51Z aeth: Common Lisp tends to shine with very large, complicated applications. Such as web servers. Here's the benchmarks for Woo: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo#how-fast 2016-05-14T03:58:05Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T03:59:34Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-14T03:59:55Z dormammu: nice 2016-05-14T04:00:02Z dormammu: but lisp is cmoplex 2016-05-14T04:00:05Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:00:05Z aeth: Fortunately, when you get into large applications, language features matter more than libraries and network effects because you need to write maintainable code that's as concise as possible (but not too concise, or else it wouldn't be maintainable). 2016-05-14T04:00:18Z dormammu: will it take tons of months to get productive in lisp 2016-05-14T04:00:18Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-14T04:00:19Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T04:00:45Z aeth: dormammu: Common Lisp is complex, Scheme is simple. This means that you can't even write portable Scheme easily because you need to use implementation-specific things to be productive. 2016-05-14T04:00:52Z dormammu: but why doesnt network effect make lisp domiante over java and haskell php ruby python 2016-05-14T04:01:55Z beach: dormammu: Asking such a question shows that you know nothing about why some languages are popular and some are not. 2016-05-14T04:01:55Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T04:02:39Z Bike: this conversation started with "Can I just load bunch of lists, lsiten on port, and caculate html response?" and it's still going? 2016-05-14T04:03:12Z beach: Bike: I guess it ended when dormammu left. 2016-05-14T04:03:24Z aeth: I planned to spend all night fixing my game engine's renderer, and I fixed it in under an hour, a few hours ago. 2016-05-14T04:03:49Z aeth: So I guess I have nothing better to do right now than explain Common Lisp, even though I'm not sure any of my points were understood. 2016-05-14T04:05:42Z Guest8657 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T04:07:31Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:13:12Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:19:54Z dormammu: microsfot is msot common desktop because its easiest to use 2016-05-14T04:19:57Z dormammu: far easier than mac 2016-05-14T04:20:09Z dormammu: thats calle dcompetitive victory not network effect 2016-05-14T04:20:16Z beach: dormammu: Please stay on topic, i.e. Common Lisp. 2016-05-14T04:20:20Z dormammu: its deluion by macs to say oh its beter but nto used 2016-05-14T04:20:25Z dormammu: because of soem gravity 2016-05-14T04:20:27Z dormammu: no windows is better 2016-05-14T04:20:32Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T04:20:36Z beach: dormammu: Please stay on topic. 2016-05-14T04:22:15Z dormammu: how an you write a web framework 2016-05-14T04:22:17Z dormammu: based on lists 2016-05-14T04:22:19Z dormammu: help in ram 2016-05-14T04:22:23Z dormammu: refernces to files on disk 2016-05-14T04:22:37Z dormammu: and web forms being gnerated from subset of lsits 2016-05-14T04:22:43Z dormammu: and data search results 2016-05-14T04:22:44Z White_Flame: how do you write that based on pointers? 2016-05-14T04:22:56Z White_Flame: or how do you write that based on string concatenation? 2016-05-14T04:22:59Z dormammu: adn web forms allowing multiple chices with check boxs 2016-05-14T04:23:05Z dormammu: all in lis 2016-05-14T04:23:06Z White_Flame: it's a nonsense argument that can be flung in any direction you want 2016-05-14T04:23:23Z dormammu: you would use pointer and string concat 2016-05-14T04:24:41Z dormammu: what ? 2016-05-14T04:24:56Z dormammu: I was reading a uy who used forth 2016-05-14T04:25:07Z dormammu: and he basically got the urls and computed responses 2016-05-14T04:25:12Z dormammu: he used arrays I think 2016-05-14T04:25:27Z dormammu: can you simplify web dev by using langs data stuctures? 2016-05-14T04:25:41Z dormammu: adn by keepign logic in RAM and blobs on disk 2016-05-14T04:25:44Z White_Flame: honest question, are you a programmer, or are you seeking to learn programming? 2016-05-14T04:25:46Z beach: dormammu: It would be preferable if you chill out a bit. 2016-05-14T04:25:50Z dormammu: learn 2016-05-14T04:26:03Z White_Flame: ok, then you need to learn first 2016-05-14T04:26:19Z White_Flame: you're throwing out very wild statements trying to make a judgement that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense 2016-05-14T04:26:30Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T04:27:27Z dormammu: well why can't I wonder about possibilities? 2016-05-14T04:27:55Z White_Flame: that would be nice, though I haven't seen that :-P 2016-05-14T04:27:55Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T04:27:59Z beach: dormammu: You can wonder all you want, but this channel is about Common Lisp, not about learning the basics of programming, so you have to take your wondering elsewhere. 2016-05-14T04:28:32Z White_Flame: there's also #clnoobs which is certainly for learning lisp in particular 2016-05-14T04:28:43Z White_Flame: whereas this is more of a practitioner channel 2016-05-14T04:29:27Z beach: White_Flame: dormammu seems to prefer to leave rather than being exposed to reason. 2016-05-14T04:29:40Z White_Flame: oops, didn't see that 2016-05-14T04:29:54Z White_Flame: though he did 'reset by peer' a few times already, could just be the connection 2016-05-14T04:29:54Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T04:30:55Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:32:18Z jason_m quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T04:32:30Z cxpp joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:32:42Z cxpp: Hi 2016-05-14T04:32:54Z beach: Hello cxpp. 2016-05-14T04:34:44Z jathd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T04:35:03Z Axord left #lisp 2016-05-14T04:35:41Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:38:35Z cxpp: I'm new to lisp. I'd like to write a markov chain text generator but I'm not sure how I should generate the structure to hold prefixes/suffixes 2016-05-14T04:39:13Z beach: Of the text? 2016-05-14T04:39:29Z cxpp: yes 2016-05-14T04:39:51Z beach: Probably an adjustable vector, unless you are really concerned about performance. 2016-05-14T04:41:55Z beach: Perhaps if you tell us more about the operations you need on this structure, you can get a more precise answer. 2016-05-14T04:43:25Z l04m33 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:43:43Z emaczen: cxpp: prefix-tree? 2016-05-14T04:48:53Z lambda-p joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:50:20Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:51:44Z cxpp: My naive structure would be a map that maps the two words with a vector of suffixes. Then, during generation, I could choose a random element in the vector for the next state 2016-05-14T04:52:46Z beach: I personally do not know what "two words" you are referring to. Perhaps you need to explain more about the technique in order to get more information. 2016-05-14T04:52:48Z cxpp: The two words/strings would act as a key 2016-05-14T04:53:02Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:54:19Z cxpp: The two words would be a string containing two words 2016-05-14T04:54:34Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T04:55:50Z beach: What I meant to say was that perhaps you are assuming that everyone knows exactly how a "markov chain text generator" works. I thought I did, but I obviously don't since I don't know what "two words" you are referring to. 2016-05-14T04:56:56Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-14T04:57:40Z Bike: normally i would think you have a current state (a word, possibly) and then a set of possible next states along with their probabilities. 2016-05-14T04:58:07Z beach: That's what I thought too. But then I don't see where the "two words" come in. 2016-05-14T04:58:30Z zkat: fouric: that project was like 4-5 of us getting together over the course of a week and hammering out a straight-up port of Chipmunk 😂 (and then discovering that 'COMPLEX got stack-allocated in SBCL between function calls where 2-field structs didn't, or something like that, so we switched the data structure for points to _that_ and hilarity ensued) 2016-05-14T04:58:40Z zkat: (and really it's been too long, but that was good times) 2016-05-14T05:01:42Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:02:31Z fouric: That sounds *amazing* (and really funny too) 2016-05-14T05:02:53Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:03:32Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:03:35Z fouric: Man, I really wish that I could be in the same room with more than one other Lisp programmer at a time 2016-05-14T05:03:49Z aeth: Hundreds of us are here. 2016-05-14T05:04:12Z fouric: I attend Portland State University and literally the only person who I'm found other than myself who knows Lisp is our engineering college's IT department's Linux sysadmin 2016-05-14T05:04:27Z aeth: Whichever 3D engine from #lispgames gets ported to VR first will make meeting other Lispers seem more realistic. 2016-05-14T05:04:31Z fouric: Oh well yes! That's why I was so happy to find you all 2016-05-14T05:04:56Z fouric: ...it's not quite the same as hacking with someone in person, though. 2016-05-14T05:05:02Z beach: fouric: Next year, you should come to ELS. There were 70 or so people there this year. 2016-05-14T05:05:04Z Bike: WSU's vancouver campus a couple miles north of you uses lisp in the compilers course. or it did a few years ago. 2016-05-14T05:05:12Z cxpp: beach: Understood. I may be misunderstanding. My understanding of a markov chain text generator generates a structure that associates two words with the next for each triple e.g. (The quick, brown). The structure is generated using a sample corpus. You can then generate sample text by taking the two most recent words and randomly choosing a third from your structure. 2016-05-14T05:05:22Z cxpp: In my naïve implementation I would have a map that associates the two words with a collection of words. Choosing the next word would be as simple as randomly choosing a word in that collection. 2016-05-14T05:05:45Z Bike: having it be two words is overly specific. i.e., you could also have the current state be three words, or one word as we assumed. 2016-05-14T05:05:48Z cxpp: I use two words instead of one for better results. 2016-05-14T05:05:52Z beach: cxpp: Oh, well, if you are looking for information on how Markov chain text processing works, this might not be the right forum. 2016-05-14T05:05:58Z fouric: beach! Is ELS more theory-focused or more "let's hack on stuff"? 2016-05-14T05:06:16Z beach: fouric: Mixed bag, really. 2016-05-14T05:06:28Z fouric: I am definitely going, then. 2016-05-14T05:06:37Z aeth: fouric: People learn whatever language they need to learn to do what they want to do. So I think #lispgames is probably the future of getting people to learn Lisp. 2016-05-14T05:06:39Z fouric: That sounds exactly like the thing that I want to do. 2016-05-14T05:06:40Z cxpp: bike: yes. ideally I would have it use n words where I specify n when calling the generator 2016-05-14T05:06:49Z Bike: cxpp: anyway, the structure of a markov system is pretty straightforward. you have a collection of states, and for each state you have a collection of next states and transition probabilities. what the states actually are, like "two words", isn't directly relevant. 2016-05-14T05:06:51Z beach: fouric: One of the keynote talks was very theoretical, but most other contributions were practical in nature. 2016-05-14T05:07:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:08:12Z asc232 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:08:36Z Bike: cxpp: for example, a very simple way to do it would be to have each state be a cons. the car is the actual state (like "the quick") and the cdr is an alist of probabilities to next states (like ((0.5 . dog-state) (0.5 . cat-state))). 2016-05-14T05:08:47Z beach: fouric: It is very likely that ELS will be held in Brussels next year. It is very easy to get to from most places in the world. 2016-05-14T05:09:34Z safe quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T05:10:11Z fouric: I will do research! 2016-05-14T05:10:18Z fouric is now known as fouric_afk 2016-05-14T05:11:28Z aeth: The only problem with Lisp games is that current CL implementations aren't designed for games. While the games currently made don't have any issues, there are limits to what can be done (they just won't be hit for a while). 2016-05-14T05:11:53Z Bike: for, what, realtime GC? 2016-05-14T05:12:11Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:13:32Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2016-05-14T05:13:32Z nisstyre joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:14:46Z aeth: The two issues that I am aware of are realtime GC and cache-friendly data structures. 2016-05-14T05:17:56Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:18:08Z cxpp: bike: beach: Thanks for the help. That makes sense 2016-05-14T05:19:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:19:49Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:29:26Z jackdaniel: emaczen: still alpha, didn't have time to work on it lately 2016-05-14T05:31:58Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:34:25Z lambda-p quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:34:29Z clique: The two issues that I'm am aware are GPUs and Superscalar architectures : / 2016-05-14T05:35:13Z Bike: it's been a while since i used a computer that wasn't superscalar 2016-05-14T05:36:18Z Bike: or maybe i'm thinking of pipelining? don't even know any more 2016-05-14T05:38:54Z aeth: Afaik there's no way to avoid either using cl-opengl or (soon) cl-vulkan, and probably also cl-sdl2 when making a 3D game. (Unless you write your own foreign bindings to some other libraries... but you have to use C or C++ somewhere.) So that's another issue. 2016-05-14T05:39:19Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T05:39:28Z clique: Yes pipelines are horrible for compilers writers.... 2016-05-14T05:39:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:39:47Z Bike: and yet we manage somehow 2016-05-14T05:40:00Z aeth: GPU programming won't be that bad once someone writes a compiler to SPIR-V in CL and either GL gets a SPIR-V extension or cl-vulkan becomes usable. 2016-05-14T05:41:31Z aeth: (It doesn't make sense to try to run a Lisp on a GPU, but a subset of what works on the GPU would be great.) 2016-05-14T05:41:50Z Bike: a CL to SPIR compiler sounds kind of stupid... a superset of a subset of CL, maybe would work :p 2016-05-14T05:42:01Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:42:03Z aeth: Right. 2016-05-14T05:42:03Z je4i joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:42:29Z aeth: There would be a lot of limitations. I think macros would be on the CPU side for the language. 2016-05-14T05:42:44Z Bike: well, yes, but i was thinking more along the lines of nonlocal exits. 2016-05-14T05:42:57Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:43:20Z Bike: or dynamic variables. or the pretty printer 2016-05-14T05:43:52Z aeth: Quite a lot of things wouldn't make sense, and some things could run but still wouldn't make sense. 2016-05-14T05:46:12Z aeth: This probably sounds like a stupid question, but what's the difference between a compiler and a bunch of (compiler?) macros? 2016-05-14T05:47:10Z Bike: compiler macros work "downwards". you can optimize an individual form but you have no context. 2016-05-14T05:47:43Z Bike: like, stupid example, you have (the integer (+ x y)). that lets you infer the types of x and y but a compiler macro on + doesn't know anything about that. 2016-05-14T05:48:12Z Bike: you could put a macro on the, but you can guess that continuing this argument you have to process the whole thing at once for maximal information, so your compiler macro is now a compiler. 2016-05-14T05:48:38Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:48:57Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:49:52Z aeth: So the distinciton is that a macro has no type information? 2016-05-14T05:50:01Z Bike: that is not what i said. 2016-05-14T05:50:18Z Bike: i said that the macro does not have all the context it could. 2016-05-14T05:50:26Z aeth: Right, context, a subset of which is type? 2016-05-14T05:50:29Z Bike: types are a particular form of this context. 2016-05-14T05:51:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:52:34Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:53:05Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:53:39Z Bike: and it's not just that the macro doesn't have context, exactly, but that it can't propagate information upwards. in (the integer (+ x y)) the type information on x and y can affect pretty unrelated forms. like, i don't know, say you have (progn (print (the integer (+ x y))) (some-arithmetic x y)). you can infer that x and y are integers, but it's hard for a compiler macro on some-arithmetic to get that 2016-05-14T05:53:45Z Bike: information. 2016-05-14T05:55:06Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:55:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T05:56:11Z Bike: i guess they can also be rationals. probably some other stuff. you know what i mean, hopefully 2016-05-14T05:56:18Z aeth: Yes. 2016-05-14T05:56:57Z DavidGuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T05:57:04Z Bike: common lisp compiler macros also don't even have access to context that is potentially available, of course 2016-05-14T05:58:28Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-14T05:59:04Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T06:02:28Z ahungry joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:02:51Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-14T06:07:03Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:07:47Z fouric_afk is now known as fouric 2016-05-14T06:09:42Z DavidGuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T06:09:56Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:12:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:13:44Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:16:41Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:18:09Z DavidGuru: Hi, everyone 2016-05-14T06:18:38Z DavidGuru: Would someone recommend some hash functions libraries written in Lisp? 2016-05-14T06:18:56Z phoe_krk: Hashing functions. Hm. 2016-05-14T06:19:32Z phoe_krk: DavidGuru: I say Ironclad! 2016-05-14T06:19:55Z Bike: couple hits for 'hash' on cliki. and there's sxhash, ofc. 2016-05-14T06:20:09Z beach: DavidGuru: What are you planning to use it for? 2016-05-14T06:20:10Z DavidGuru: Oh yes ..... How could I forget about that ... 2016-05-14T06:20:26Z DavidGuru: Bloom Filter 2016-05-14T06:21:01Z phoe_krk: Maths. I say Ironclad will do best in this case as it's numerical and (somewhat) configurable. 2016-05-14T06:21:27Z DavidGuru: It's just I happen to use a Bloom Filter to do some stuff, and a library called 'cl-bloom' uses another library called "cl-murmurhash" 2016-05-14T06:22:09Z DavidGuru: OK I see 2016-05-14T06:23:08Z DavidGuru: Ironclad is pretty awesome 2016-05-14T06:23:11Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:23:24Z phoe_krk: DavidGuru: well, it looks like this CL-MURMURHASH library is a fast and non-crypto one. If that's what floats your boat, I think you can grab it 2016-05-14T06:23:40Z DavidGuru: Yeah I think so 2016-05-14T06:24:22Z DavidGuru: But the "cl-bloom" is not scalable at all, I have to send a pull request then, I guess 2016-05-14T06:25:22Z DavidGuru: That uses 'make-array' directly 2016-05-14T06:25:58Z DavidGuru: I would suggest the author use a static array instead 2016-05-14T06:32:39Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T06:33:19Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T06:37:55Z moore33: beach: Re real time GC, have you written down your ideas on the subject somewhere? 2016-05-14T06:39:12Z beach: moore33: I have a paper on the per-thread real-time GC. Have you seen it? 2016-05-14T06:39:44Z moore33: beach: That's what I'm thinking of, and I can't remember whether I've seen it or just talked to you about it. 2016-05-14T06:40:07Z moore33: aeth: beach will solve all our problems :) 2016-05-14T06:40:07Z beach: Give me a minute... 2016-05-14T06:40:56Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf 2016-05-14T06:41:14Z beach: It might not be the very version that was presented, but it's close enough. 2016-05-14T06:42:20Z beach: For the global collector, check out reference 8 by Kermany & Petrank from 2006. 2016-05-14T06:42:40Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T06:43:32Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-14T06:46:07Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T06:47:12Z moore33: beach: Cool, thanks for the link. 2016-05-14T06:54:20Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-14T06:54:41Z ahungry: Hi all, what do you guys think of this package I just put together? https://github.com/ahungry/injection its a YAML based dependency injection/configuration library (similar to what some other language frameworks use nowadays) 2016-05-14T06:56:03Z python476: beach: indeed, cool paper 2016-05-14T06:56:16Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T06:56:39Z moore33: FWIW, I think that CCL implements a mark-compact collector, but don't quote me on that. 2016-05-14T06:56:50Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T07:07:55Z beach: moore33: You are very likely right. When I presented the paper, people from Clozure said they do something very similar. But of course, they hadn't bothered publishing it. 2016-05-14T07:08:03Z moore33: Yes, see http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/4281?set_lines=100000 2016-05-14T07:08:18Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:08:50Z moore33: beach: Probably because Macintosh Common Lisp once ran in 512K of memory :P 2016-05-14T07:09:02Z beach: Heh, possibly, yes. 2016-05-14T07:09:14Z beach: But it turns out to be a very good strategy anyway. 2016-05-14T07:09:42Z beach: The age of the objects is very precisely known, so promotion could be more precise, avoiding the promotion of objects soon to die. 2016-05-14T07:09:44Z moore33: Yeah. Did you implement it in SICL? 2016-05-14T07:10:24Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:11:36Z beach: moore33: SICL doesn't exist yet, so no. But I implemented a "simulation" of it in SBCL. That's where the results in the paper come from. 2016-05-14T07:12:03Z moore33: beach: Ah, OK. I can never keep the status of your various projects straight :) 2016-05-14T07:12:08Z beach: ahungry: There are several cases of using a style that is not typical for Common Lisp. 2016-05-14T07:12:14Z zRecursive left #lisp 2016-05-14T07:13:02Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T07:13:11Z beach: ahungry: Capitalizing names is not typically done for instance. 2016-05-14T07:13:47Z beach: ahungry: And using the word "get" is not common, even though there are some leftover cases in the standard, such as GETHASH. 2016-05-14T07:14:58Z beach: ahungry: Using the same name of a slot and its accessor is a bad idea, because you then can not export the name of the accessor without also exporting the name of the slot, thereby making it easier to have "accidents" where client code uses SLOT-VALUE rather than going through the accessor. 2016-05-14T07:16:03Z beach: ahungry: The use of WHEN signals to the maintainer of your code that it is in a context where the value is not important. However, you use it in a context where the value is returned from the method. 2016-05-14T07:16:38Z beach: ahungry: It is better style to use IF with an explicit NIL in the "else" branch in those cases. 2016-05-14T07:17:35Z beach: ahungry: Of course, it is even better to signal an error rather than silently returning a value that might be propagated and only discovered much later to be a problem. 2016-05-14T07:18:16Z beach: ahungry: Your LOOP form has incorrect indentation. 2016-05-14T07:18:51Z beach: ahungry: There is no need to use PROGN in a DO clause of LOOP. You can have several forms following the DO. 2016-05-14T07:19:58Z beach: ahungry: It is very unusual to have calls to PRINT in a method named Container-Instantiate-Services. 2016-05-14T07:21:12Z beach: ahungry: It is HIGHLY unusual to create a variable named ARGUMENTS and then immediately assign to it. A LET* would be preferable. 2016-05-14T07:22:04Z beach: ahungry: That's what I think about it for starters. 2016-05-14T07:22:53Z Bike quit (Quit: fear god) 2016-05-14T07:23:38Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-14T07:24:06Z beach: moore33: I might have an idea on how to solve many of our problems related to Common Lisp, but I am starting to realize that there won't be enough time for me both to figure out what needs to be done AND to implement all that. :( 2016-05-14T07:27:25Z moore33: urk 2016-05-14T07:32:02Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:36:09Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:40:44Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T07:43:27Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T07:44:23Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:44:45Z aeth: Oh wow, I didn't know accessors and slots shouldn't have the same name. I think they do in PCL so I've been doing it that way in almost every CLOS class that I've written. 2016-05-14T07:45:29Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:47:20Z blub: why not aeth 2016-05-14T07:50:47Z aeth: Because apparently defpackage is a lisp-1 2016-05-14T07:50:56Z moore33: aeth: Style is a personal thing :) I don't follow that advice either. 2016-05-14T07:51:11Z rudolfochrist joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:51:25Z beach: moore33: Style is a personal thing only as long as you keep your code to yourself. 2016-05-14T07:51:28Z moore33: I'm moving in the direction of not even declaring accessors for "private" slots. 2016-05-14T07:51:29Z aeth: I use get-foo in a few places. Not because it's proper, of course. I know it's terrible and un-Lispy. 2016-05-14T07:51:45Z moore33: beach: Or if your stylistic choice is in fact correct ;) 2016-05-14T07:52:13Z beach: moore33: If you want to share it for some reason, it is best to use accepted conventions and traditional wisdom when it comes to arguments of maintainability etc. 2016-05-14T07:53:27Z moore33: beach: I agree, just that I'm not sure how widely accepted that particular style choice is. 2016-05-14T07:53:29Z beach: moore33: So you use SLOT-VALUE and WITH-SLOTS instead? That could be risky when it comes to performance. SLOT-VALUE has a lot more work to do. 2016-05-14T07:53:58Z moore33: beach: I thought that the opposite was true, especially for sbcl. 2016-05-14T07:54:08Z blub: the way it interacts with exports is more of a reason to use the same name if anything 2016-05-14T07:54:16Z beach: moore33: The argument is based on maintainability. You want your client code to be unaware of slots and only access your library through a well defined protocol. 2016-05-14T07:54:20Z moore33: That is, slot-value can be optimized. 2016-05-14T07:54:44Z beach: moore33: It can, but the technique is to introduce an artificial accessor, more or less. 2016-05-14T07:55:04Z moore33: beach: Oh, I agree about that; my attitude is that if they want to use slot-value to access a private slot, they'll get what's coming to them. 2016-05-14T07:55:28Z blub: if you're using slot-value period you're sticking your fingers where you probably shouldn't. you can't stop people from doing it, slot-value itself says what they're getting into 2016-05-14T07:55:45Z moore33: bbl 2016-05-14T07:55:58Z beach: moore33: And there is an easy way to help the application programmer with that: make sure that he or she needs to type ::% or something similar to get to the slot. 2016-05-14T07:56:11Z PuercoPop quit (K-Lined) 2016-05-14T07:56:19Z aeth: Is it okay to use slot-value in initialize-instance? 2016-05-14T07:56:33Z aeth: Or should it always be with an accessor? 2016-05-14T07:57:15Z PuercoPop joined #lisp 2016-05-14T07:57:20Z beach: Hmm, looks like I need to restart my display server. 2016-05-14T07:57:23Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-14T07:57:26Z blub: probably an accessor but it depends 2016-05-14T07:57:49Z blub: instead of making the user type ::%, i like the solution lisp already has, which is making them type slot-value :) 2016-05-14T07:59:17Z blub: slot-value is when you really truly need to get at what the slot is holding, no extra behaviour and you know it's a slot etc. in user level code that's not generally what you want, but sometimes it is 2016-05-14T07:59:21Z blub: accessors should be your default 2016-05-14T07:59:21Z LaGaVuLiN__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:00:54Z aeth: blub: The use of :: interacts very well with the use of ASDF's package-inferred-system imo. The user can't just do foo:something-private or foo-package::something-private 2016-05-14T08:01:23Z aeth: They have to do foo-package/foobar/baz-quux::something-private 2016-05-14T08:01:37Z aeth: Which should discourage them more than being able to do foo::something-private with the short nickname 2016-05-14T08:02:40Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:03:37Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:04:44Z beach: moore33: In general, SLOT-VALUE must do much more work than an accessor. It must find out whether the slot with that name exists, and if so what offset it has in the instance of this particular class. 2016-05-14T08:05:07Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:05:42Z beach: moore33: Whereas the very existence of the accessor typically means that the offset is known so that it can go directly to the slot. 2016-05-14T08:06:23Z beach: moore33: Of course, the implementation can have a compiler macro on SLOT-VALUE to capture the constant slot name, but that solution is similar to having an accessor. 2016-05-14T08:06:56Z beach: moore33: The same information must be invalidated and recomputed when the class changes for some reason. 2016-05-14T08:07:30Z beach: moore33: As I recall, this optimization was recent in SBCL, and may not exist in most other Common Lisp implementations. 2016-05-14T08:08:42Z beach: And no, the accessor does not call SLOT-VALUE if it is implemented to be fast: http://metamodular.com/generic-dispatch.pdf 2016-05-14T08:09:24Z MrCuddle joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:09:56Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:10:45Z beach: blub: The problem with using SLOT-VALUE to indicate breach of protocol is that sometimes it is a breach and sometimes it is not, so the maintainer of your code has to figure out whether the slot is defined in the same library or not. 2016-05-14T08:12:28Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T08:12:29Z beach: Furthermore, using SLOT-VALUE essentially prevents the existence of any internal protocol that could otherwise be customized, extended etc. For that reason, I essentially never use SLOT-VALUE anymore, at least not with a constant slot name. 2016-05-14T08:13:41Z MrCuddle quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T08:14:45Z rudolfochrist quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T08:14:59Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:25:00Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-14T08:36:36Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:36:57Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:40:13Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:41:00Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:42:08Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T08:42:52Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T08:43:36Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:49:28Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T08:50:05Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:51:04Z l04m33 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T08:51:25Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:51:48Z t04utu quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T08:56:43Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T08:56:58Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:01:13Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:04:50Z moore33: beach: I guess I'm seeing the difference between slot-value with a constant argument for the slot name and an accessor in terms of optimization possibilities. More generally, as I've been hacking on LPSG, I think there's a more of a division between slots-as-data-holders and generic functions that are part of a protocol; a slot accessor might not really fit in either case, so it's better to define methods on the generic 2016-05-14T09:04:51Z moore33: function and use slot-value to access the slot. 2016-05-14T09:06:29Z moore33: Gotta walk the dog; bbl 2016-05-14T09:06:59Z moore33: uh, that was confusing: I *don't* see the difference between slot-value with constant slot name and an accessor. 2016-05-14T09:06:59Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-14T09:08:01Z ecraven: that was a short walk :D 2016-05-14T09:08:20Z beach: moore33: Sure. As usual, there is of course no obligation to follow my advice. 2016-05-14T09:08:54Z fourier: moore33: isn't accessor is a way to "extend" the behavior (i.e. add locks later) without changing the interface? it is the main difference 2016-05-14T09:09:43Z beach: fourier: That's what I meant by SLOT-VALUE preventing the creation of an internal protocol. 2016-05-14T09:16:16Z CEnnis91 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T09:24:09Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:26:09Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T09:31:15Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:34:11Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:35:11Z Ven quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T09:37:07Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:37:32Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T09:38:16Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T09:38:53Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:42:23Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:43:03Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T09:43:19Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T09:43:42Z dptd joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:45:10Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-14T09:49:50Z dptd quit (Quit: dunno) 2016-05-14T09:49:54Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-14T09:56:31Z moore33: fourier: Yes. My point, not fully developed, is that an accessor is not always a good fit for a protocol; e.g., doesn't take extra arguments. 2016-05-14T09:57:45Z beach: But SLOT-VALUE does? 2016-05-14T10:01:13Z moore33: beach: No! That's why I would use slot-value; I don't have any intention of exposing the accessor. Now, I should say that I would never use slot-value as the intended interface for a "public" slot. 2016-05-14T10:02:30Z beach: I understand, but having an accessor doesn't imply any obligation to export its name. Conversely, it is not just because you don't want to export the name of an accessor that it should be replaced by SLOT-VALUE. 2016-05-14T10:02:34Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T10:04:50Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:05:55Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:06:04Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T10:15:25Z moore33: beach: I agree; this is all at the margins. I always used to faithfully define an accessor for every slot; recently I've been feeling less of a need to do that. *shrug* 2016-05-14T10:18:05Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:19:42Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-14T10:21:57Z beach: :shrug: indeed. 2016-05-14T10:21:57Z Colleen: ‾\(ツ)/‾ 2016-05-14T10:25:14Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:25:54Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T10:31:55Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:33:40Z agidyne joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:34:36Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T10:35:22Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-14T10:37:17Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-05-14T10:38:36Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:38:51Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:38:53Z emaczen quit (Changing host) 2016-05-14T10:38:53Z emaczen joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:39:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:40:26Z Karl_Dscc quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T10:44:59Z emaczen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T10:46:56Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-14T10:47:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-14T12:42:12Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T12:42:17Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:42:50Z moore33: Heh, hacking in the movie theatre café. 2016-05-14T12:42:55Z Secretmapper joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:44:38Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:45:02Z Secretmapper quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T12:45:13Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:45:33Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:45:44Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:46:27Z phoe_work: There's Let Over Lambda, a book that goes completely nuts on Lisp macros. 2016-05-14T12:46:44Z phoe_work: There's Art of Metaobject Protocol, a book that goes completely bonkers on Lisp objects. 2016-05-14T12:46:58Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-14T12:47:15Z phoe_work: I need a book that goes completely mad on Lisp's functional capabilities because it looks like a missing part in a trio. 2016-05-14T12:47:41Z Secretmapper joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:47:49Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:47:57Z cantstanya quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T12:47:58Z moore33: phoe_work: SICP 2016-05-14T12:48:15Z moore33: phoe_work: And translate to Common Lisp in your head. 2016-05-14T12:48:24Z phoe_work: moore33: why in my head? 2016-05-14T12:48:34Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T12:48:42Z phoe_work: I'll translate it to Common Lisp on paper when I have the time and finish a few other projects*. 2016-05-14T12:48:56Z araujo_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-14T12:48:58Z phoe_work: *>5 years 2016-05-14T12:50:08Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T12:51:15Z moore33: phoe_work: I mean, just read the book and realize that the scheme dialect described is quite similar to Common Lisp and that most, if not all, of the ideas apply. 2016-05-14T12:51:31Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:51:37Z moore33: Even if it is 30 years old. 2016-05-14T12:51:51Z papachan` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T12:52:09Z phoe_work: Yes, yes, I know. 2016-05-14T12:52:21Z phoe_work: But SICP is a book good enough to be fully translated into Common Lisp nevertheless. 2016-05-14T12:53:03Z phoe_work: Just so you can fire up a REPL and not worry about stuff "what is the dialect of Scheme used in SICP" like many people ask. 2016-05-14T12:53:20Z moore33: That would be a longer book. 2016-05-14T12:54:05Z phoe_work: moore33: why? 2016-05-14T12:54:16Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T12:54:25Z moore33: All the additional uses of funcall :P 2016-05-14T12:54:31Z phoe_work: moore33: oh shush you. 2016-05-14T12:54:37Z Guest21559 is now known as t04utu 2016-05-14T12:54:47Z phoe_work: FUNCALL is important enough in Common Lisp to be repeated all these required times in SICP. 2016-05-14T12:54:49Z moore33: Hey, I read it, and took the class, so I'm entitled. 2016-05-14T12:54:55Z phoe_work: :P 2016-05-14T12:55:17Z t04utu left #lisp 2016-05-14T12:55:29Z phoe_work: I say that FUNCALL is enough of a difference between CL and Scheme for it to be repeated every single time it's required. 2016-05-14T12:55:52Z phoe_work: e.g. so someone who wants to go functional in CL becomes used to it. 2016-05-14T12:56:28Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:56:35Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:56:35Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T12:57:10Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T12:57:38Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-14T12:57:38Z Nuri quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T12:58:22Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:00:18Z moore33: phoe_work: I don't know about that; efficiency of notation counts for something. 2016-05-14T13:01:30Z heurist` quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-14T13:02:37Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-14T13:03:41Z phoe_work: moore33: what do you mean? 2016-05-14T13:04:29Z phoe_work: Efficiency is one thing; you simply have to use FUNCALL/APPLY in some places though unless you do dirty hacks to the evaluator. 2016-05-14T13:04:32Z moore33: moore33: I mean that a functional style is quite suited to lisp-1. And vice versa. 2016-05-14T13:05:43Z phoe_work: moore33: yes, but lisp-N where N≥2 can be functional as well. 2016-05-14T13:05:45Z moore33: Apply is hard to get around in modern Lisp, but funcall is just a noise word. Note that this is in theory; I do prefer lisp-2, but then I'm not a functional fanatic at all. 2016-05-14T13:06:01Z phoe_work: It might not have the best possible syntax, but it's doable. 2016-05-14T13:07:29Z moore33: Time for the movie. 2016-05-14T13:07:32Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T13:07:41Z phoe_work: And if it indeed is a noise word, then it should be possible to hack the reader itself and create a Domain Specific Lisp that is able to work with stuff like ((if (y-or-n-p) #'> #'<) 3 5). 2016-05-14T13:08:24Z phoe_work: It *will* be a hack - but I'd rather explain that, why I'm doing this, why one would want to do it, why it would be okay, why it would be wrong, and then provide a few examples, rather than stay just with one option. 2016-05-14T13:09:28Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T13:09:56Z dormammu: is the complexity of comon lisp worth the learn? is the pwoer that great? 2016-05-14T13:10:29Z yo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:10:39Z yo_ left #lisp 2016-05-14T13:11:53Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:12:14Z phoe_work: dormammu: I say yes, it's the most fun language I've got to know so far. 2016-05-14T13:12:38Z phoe_work: And the complexity is bearable and is split into two parts. It's usually the first, getting to know your IDE/editor, that tends to scare people away. 2016-05-14T13:12:59Z phoe_work: But I say it's a road very worth travelling. #lisp and #clnoobs are there to be your help. 2016-05-14T13:13:33Z edgar-rft: phoe_work: don't feed trolls. 2016-05-14T13:13:48Z phoe_work: edgar-rft: I'm not. I'm answering a question. 2016-05-14T13:14:12Z edgar-rft: dorammu is a well-known troll 2016-05-14T13:15:21Z phoe_work: edgar-rft: I don't really care. The question itself is sane, perhaps someone reading the logs right now will also find an answer to theirs, similar question. The moment the person actually starts trolling, I'm going to grab the sword. 2016-05-14T13:16:26Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T13:16:27Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T13:16:42Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:20:44Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T13:21:19Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:23:04Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:25:24Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:25:31Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:27:38Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:29:07Z Guest38804 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:29:17Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T13:29:18Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-14T13:29:42Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T13:30:08Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-14T13:32:26Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-14T13:33:43Z gentio joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:34:32Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:35:37Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:37:29Z didi: I think I can see why NSHUFFLE is slower than SHUFFLE, but I am surprised by the result as I was trying to make it faster: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/cfc4f4c3 2016-05-14T13:37:44Z kokonaisluku joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:39:56Z didi: If my calculations are right, NSHUFFLE is O(n^2). 2016-05-14T13:43:34Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T13:43:49Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:45:54Z phoe_work: Yes, it looks like it. 2016-05-14T13:47:41Z phoe_work: It's hard to shuffle a list when you have O(n) access time and O(1) space. 2016-05-14T13:48:12Z phoe_work: So O(n) for each element times O(n) elements. That's O(n^2) with O(1) space. 2016-05-14T13:50:22Z didi: :-) Oh, well. 2016-05-14T13:50:25Z phoe_work: On the other hand you have O(n*logn) methinks time with O(n) space - you're going functional and consing. 2016-05-14T13:51:26Z phoe_work: Vectors should be so much more effective in your case though. Give them a try. 2016-05-14T13:52:08Z didi: phoe_work: Oh, I did. They were. 2016-05-14T13:52:16Z phoe_work: Yes, you have O(1) access time. 2016-05-14T13:52:26Z didi: :-) 2016-05-14T13:53:25Z phoe_work: :3 2016-05-14T13:53:44Z phoe_work: didi: one more fun way of shuffling. 2016-05-14T13:54:06Z didi: phoe_work: And I agree with your second analysis too. I would to to say it is even Ω(n*lgn) because of `sort'. 2016-05-14T13:54:14Z phoe_work: didi: yes. 2016-05-14T13:54:23Z phoe_work: This depends on how you implement sort of course. 2016-05-14T13:54:28Z didi nods 2016-05-14T13:54:33Z didi: Computing is fun. 2016-05-14T13:54:35Z phoe_work: didi: you can simply insert all your elements into a hash-table. 2016-05-14T13:54:41Z phoe_work: And then MAPHASH on it. 2016-05-14T13:54:48Z didi: phoe_work: Uuuuh. 2016-05-14T13:54:55Z didi: Nice! 2016-05-14T13:55:12Z phoe_work: Not random enough? Insert a cons of ((random 1.0) x) into a hash-table of test #'EQUAL. 2016-05-14T13:55:20Z phoe_work: And maphash, getting a CDR. 2016-05-14T13:55:28Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:55:35Z didi: phoe_work: Thank you. 2016-05-14T13:55:44Z phoe_work: didi: just a random idea. 2016-05-14T13:55:54Z didi likes random ideas 2016-05-14T13:56:02Z phoe_work: Should give you a relatively constant time of insertion. 2016-05-14T13:56:13Z phoe_work: And maphashing over all cases is O(n) too. 2016-05-14T13:56:30Z phoe_work: So you have ~O(n) insertion and O(n) retrieval. 2016-05-14T13:56:49Z didi: Awesome. I will give it a try. 2016-05-14T13:56:51Z phoe_work: ~O(n) shuffling, then! The only side effect is that it conses. 2016-05-14T13:57:01Z phoe_work: Orrrrr wait. 2016-05-14T13:57:06Z phoe_work: Yes, it conses. 2016-05-14T13:57:25Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:57:32Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:59:00Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-14T13:59:59Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:00:28Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:01:58Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:02:48Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:03:39Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T14:07:05Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:09:07Z kokonaisluku quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 45.1.0/20160426211446]) 2016-05-14T14:09:23Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:09:47Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:10:02Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:10:53Z arbv quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T14:11:21Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:12:20Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:12:58Z trasto_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:14:12Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:15:42Z beach: drmeister: Are you around? 2016-05-14T14:16:01Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:16:08Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:16:24Z drmeister: Hi beach - yes. I'm debugging linking issues in #clasp - what's up? 2016-05-14T14:16:56Z beach: Yesterday, you were asking what "canonicalizing" a declaration means. 2016-05-14T14:17:02Z beach: Where did you find a reference to it? 2016-05-14T14:17:09Z beach: I mean, why did you ask that question? 2016-05-14T14:23:46Z XachX_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T14:24:35Z XachX_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:25:22Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:28:37Z drmeister: beach: I copied the way you set up environments in Cleavir into C++. I was inspired by the way you canonicalize declarations in Cleavir. 2016-05-14T14:28:46Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-14T14:29:17Z beach: OK. 2016-05-14T14:29:42Z drmeister: So what does you do when you canonicalize declarations? 2016-05-14T14:29:49Z drmeister: s/does/do/ 2016-05-14T14:30:35Z beach: Like Bike said, it is not a standardized term, but what I do is documented in the comment in the file declarations.lisp in Cleavir/Code-utilities. 2016-05-14T14:30:38Z drmeister: When I found mention on canonicalized declarations in CLTLv2 - I thought it might be a more general term. 2016-05-14T14:30:52Z beach: I understand. 2016-05-14T14:31:03Z drmeister: Ah - read the comments. Yes of course. 2016-05-14T14:32:15Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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At least on SBCL. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/9e497338 2016-05-14T14:57:38Z phoe_work: didi: could you try a longer list? (alexandria:iota 10000) perhaps? 2016-05-14T14:58:05Z mood: didi: The fact that there is no guarantee on the order doesn't mean there isn't an order in some/many cases 2016-05-14T14:58:14Z phoe_work: It's expected it would be deterministic in a way, but I wonder if it's psendorandom enough. 2016-05-14T14:58:29Z mood: At any time, the hashtable can be rehashed and the order may change 2016-05-14T14:59:07Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T14:59:10Z phoe_work: If it's not, you'd need some kind of randomness that would make the SXHASH function apply it further. (cons (random 1.0) x) that you used sounds sane. 2016-05-14T14:59:51Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:00:45Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:01:41Z mood: But shuffling a list by inserting it into a hash table is not a good idea. Hash tables place no guarantees on the order, so they may even just be a list underneath 2016-05-14T15:02:05Z didi: oic 2016-05-14T15:02:11Z didi: mood: Thank you. 2016-05-14T15:02:43Z beach: I agree with mood. If you are going to use O(n) space, might as well copy it to a vector and shuffle the vector the standard way. 2016-05-14T15:03:04Z didi: Understood. 2016-05-14T15:03:34Z phoe_work: I see! Got it. 2016-05-14T15:03:53Z jsnell: in sbcl the iteration order is independent of the hash values 2016-05-14T15:05:52Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:08:40Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:08:42Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-14T15:10:54Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:12:57Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:15:54Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:18:44Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-14T15:19:59Z Nuri left #lisp 2016-05-14T15:20:38Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:21:14Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:21:37Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:22:11Z lisp029 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:25:14Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:28:32Z lisp029 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:28:48Z yrdz joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:29:49Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:30:51Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:32:56Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:34:49Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:37:18Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:37:30Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:37:44Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:43:27Z impulse- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:44:32Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:45:55Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-14T15:51:10Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T15:54:30Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:54:52Z phoe_work quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-14T15:54:53Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:55:08Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:55:27Z FreeBird_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T15:55:45Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:56:37Z jsgrant: Wow, shocked by the quality of http://lisp-lang.org/ . 2016-05-14T15:56:57Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:57:09Z jsgrant: CL has been lacking good marketing for sometime, if for ever it seems; Glad to see there is some pushes in this direction. 2016-05-14T15:57:28Z jsgrant: s/there is/there are 2016-05-14T15:58:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-14T15:59:34Z vydd: jsgrant: woah 2016-05-14T16:00:30Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:00:50Z jsgrant: vydd: Yeah, pretty excited to see where/if it goes anywhere. 2016-05-14T16:01:05Z jsgrant: They are working on prettying up the spec, it seems. 2016-05-14T16:03:01Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:03:57Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:04:04Z vydd: jsgrant: cool. although it's true that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, it's also true that we all do to some extent 2016-05-14T16:04:12Z jackdaniel: I wish it would be cooperation with the cl.net for instance 2016-05-14T16:04:56Z vydd: I don't understand common-lisp.net 2016-05-14T16:05:03Z jackdaniel: how so? 2016-05-14T16:06:17Z vydd: it's weird...I'm trying to find words 2016-05-14T16:06:29Z jsgrant: vydd: I ran Stumpwm & Emacs pretty exclusively for years (now run it in a VM, but have an arugably more "sane" day-to-day env of GNOME) -- so when it comes to pretty graphics, in-terms of actual functionality, yeah it's mostly irrelevant ... but in luring people in, it's certainly handy. 2016-05-14T16:06:33Z jackdaniel: it serves (at least conceptually) the same purpose lisp-lang wants to do 2016-05-14T16:06:51Z jsgrant: vydd: It's basically from the late 90s, early 2000s as a psuedo-wiki. 2016-05-14T16:06:59Z jsgrant: common-lisp.net* 2016-05-14T16:07:13Z jackdaniel: centralized, non-commercial (it's baked by a foundation) host for projects, resources, community etc 2016-05-14T16:07:19Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:07:26Z vydd: yeah, that I understand, but what I think I'm missing is a ... flow 2016-05-14T16:07:36Z vydd: it looks like there's categorization, different sections 2016-05-14T16:07:37Z fourier: jsgrant: cool about lisp-lang 2016-05-14T16:07:44Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Ah, interesting, what foundation? 2016-05-14T16:07:49Z vydd: but somehow it ends up looking like a giant index 2016-05-14T16:07:50Z jackdaniel: common lisp foundation 2016-05-14T16:07:53Z vydd: instead of a TOC 2016-05-14T16:08:06Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T16:08:08Z jackdaniel: vydd: that's why I think that cooperation from the lisp-lang author's side would bring some fresh flow into it 2016-05-14T16:08:14Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: Ah, well that was almost too obvious for me to ask in the first-place then. :^I 2016-05-14T16:08:21Z jackdaniel: instead of creating yet another separate project :) 2016-05-14T16:08:33Z vydd: jackdaniel: I agree 2016-05-14T16:08:36Z jackdaniel: jsgrant: not at all, foundation was created 2 years ago I think 2016-05-14T16:08:59Z jackdaniel: either way I've got to go 2016-05-14T16:09:03Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:09:03Z jackdaniel: have a nice evening o/ 2016-05-14T16:09:03Z fourier: what about common lisp foundation? what do they do? 2016-05-14T16:09:18Z jsgrant: jackdaniel: With a name like that, okay, it seems like it'd be around for like 20+ years. 2016-05-14T16:09:36Z jackdaniel: fourier: http://cl-foundation.org/ 2016-05-14T16:10:04Z jackdaniel: now, honestly, afk :P 2016-05-14T16:10:18Z fourier: jackdaniel: thanks 2016-05-14T16:12:42Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:14:02Z jsgrant: common-lisp.net does (for what it's worth) look much better now than a few years ago -- but yeah, I'd love if lisp-lang.org got rolled into common-lisp.net in some relevant way or vice-versa. 2016-05-14T16:14:03Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:14:09Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:16:29Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:19:03Z shka: hi all 2016-05-14T16:19:24Z shka: http://www.cliki.net/Documentation%20Tool <- which one to choose? 2016-05-14T16:20:29Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T16:22:54Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:23:04Z Kooda quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:24:07Z jsgrant still needs to check out; http://www.cliki.net/cl-typesetting 2016-05-14T16:24:09Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:24:22Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-14T16:24:31Z jsgrant: Haven't really played with anything that extracts documentation from existing sourcecode though. 2016-05-14T16:25:57Z Nikotiin` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:28:01Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:30:29Z zygentoma joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:32:27Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:35:16Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T16:35:29Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:36:09Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:36:38Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:36:39Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-14T16:36:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:37:41Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-14T16:38:00Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:43:45Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:47:12Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:48:04Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:48:10Z fn2187__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T16:52:14Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:52:53Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T16:56:07Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T16:57:19Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:58:29Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T16:58:44Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:58:46Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:58:52Z fourier: interesting why peoples just didn't modify doxygen to support extraction of CL documentation. o 2016-05-14T16:59:00Z fourier: seems like NIH syndrome 2016-05-14T16:59:17Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:59:17Z d4ryus quit (Killed (sendak.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-14T16:59:17Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-14T16:59:32Z shka: fourier: i don't think so 2016-05-14T16:59:42Z metaphysician joined #lisp 2016-05-14T16:59:55Z shka: most of cl doc generators work by extracting information from running cl images 2016-05-14T17:00:00Z shka: not by parsing source code 2016-05-14T17:00:08Z shka: and iirc this is not how doxygen works 2016-05-14T17:00:09Z fourier: shka: you think it is better to write 12 new tools instead of modifying one ? 2016-05-14T17:00:30Z shka: fourier: that's not what i said 2016-05-14T17:00:55Z fourier: shka: ah in this sense I understand. still don't think it is a good idea to extract from running image 2016-05-14T17:01:08Z shka: perhaps 2016-05-14T17:01:17Z shka: i just wish there was reasonable solution 2016-05-14T17:01:26Z shka: aka 2016-05-14T17:01:30Z fourier: i.e. there is no standard way to extract slot documentation in runtime 2016-05-14T17:01:30Z shka: working out of the box 2016-05-14T17:01:59Z shka: i can't force codex to generate documentation from me 2016-05-14T17:03:57Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:04:06Z shka: it is disappointing 2016-05-14T17:04:51Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:07:29Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:08:30Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:09:02Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:09:06Z CEnnis91 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:09:49Z agidyne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T17:13:19Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:15:20Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:15:23Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:15:28Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T17:19:33Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:19:42Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:20:08Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:20:28Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:20:54Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:23:11Z NeverDie quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-14T17:24:26Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:25:10Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:27:45Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:29:17Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:32:14Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:32:55Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:35:44Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:36:21Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T17:38:30Z Karl_Dscc quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T17:38:31Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:39:54Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:40:31Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:42:13Z mood: fourier: Extracting documentation from the running image is by far the most reliable way to get to it. Because of macros it's impossible to find all docstrings by just analyzing the code 2016-05-14T17:43:38Z zygentoma|2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:43:48Z bebop2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:44:35Z beach: Also, producing documentation by extracting docstrings frequently gives a very poor result. There are several reasons for that. 2016-05-14T17:44:37Z beach: For one thing, docstrings tend to be skimpy because they are noise to the person reading the code (they were meant for the user and not the maintainer). 2016-05-14T17:44:38Z beach: Second, there is no natural place to attach information about concepts and general purpose. So that totally essential part of the documentation tends to be left out. 2016-05-14T17:44:53Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T17:45:25Z didi doesn't like to read automatic generated documentation 2016-05-14T17:45:35Z zygentoma|2 is now known as zygentoma 2016-05-14T17:45:42Z didi: There is no story to follow. Just a bunch of functions. 2016-05-14T17:45:51Z beach: Exactly! 2016-05-14T17:47:16Z beach: I do agree though, that the docstrings must be part of the image so that they can be programmatically processed using standard Common Lisp tools, without having to parse source code. 2016-05-14T17:48:29Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:49:03Z beach: And we should not give up this advantage for a worse solution, just because other languages are incapable of doing it the Common Lisp way. 2016-05-14T17:49:06Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T17:49:51Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:50:11Z beach: Anyway, time to go do something else. 2016-05-14T17:50:13Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-14T17:50:47Z bebop2 quit (Quit: Hermes - Material IRC Client - https://numixproject.org/) 2016-05-14T17:51:09Z Augustus is now known as Octavian 2016-05-14T17:52:57Z spacecowboy joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:55:07Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:57:09Z Kooda joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:58:02Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-14T17:58:23Z arbv joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:00:19Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:01:03Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:01:42Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:01:55Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:02:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:05:13Z spacecowboy quit (Quit: Hermes - Material IRC Client - https://numixproject.org/) 2016-05-14T18:14:23Z didi` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:16:12Z drmeister: How do I determine if a declaration is the short form (typespec var*) (which is short for (type typespec var*) 2016-05-14T18:17:17Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:18:01Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:18:17Z drmeister: There is no way to determine if an s-expression represents a type. 2016-05-14T18:26:54Z nalik891 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:27:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T18:27:22Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:27:22Z metaphysician quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:32:35Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:32:53Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:36:33Z Bike: drmeister: it's kind of ambiguous yeah, but you only need to check for types that exist right then. so just do your internal "is this a defined type" lookup after checking if it's another declaration. 2016-05-14T18:44:57Z didi`: Hey, this is surprising for me: it is faster to sort a LIST than an ARRAY. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/7e36e16c 2016-05-14T18:46:35Z DeadTrickster: didi`, try to sort the same sequence 2016-05-14T18:47:20Z didi`: DeadTrickster: After it has been sorted? 2016-05-14T18:47:31Z DeadTrickster: of course not 2016-05-14T18:47:33Z Bike: no, as in, you use two different sequences for your test 2016-05-14T18:47:40Z Bike: so there's plenty of variability 2016-05-14T18:47:47Z zygentoma quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:48:02Z Bike: it could be that one starts sorted and the other is worst case, e.g. 2016-05-14T18:48:14Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:48:16Z didi`: Oh yes. But I ran it many times. The result is consistent. And, I first tried using sequences of 0s. 2016-05-14T18:48:24Z didi`: Same thing. 2016-05-14T18:48:29Z didi`: Let me do it with zeroes. 2016-05-14T18:48:31Z didi`: One sec. 2016-05-14T18:48:44Z flip214: didi`: (map-into) the list the array sequence. 2016-05-14T18:48:48Z flip214: then both are the same. 2016-05-14T18:48:58Z flip214: *before* sorting the array, of course ;) 2016-05-14T18:49:14Z didi`: Here: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/abe996c7 2016-05-14T18:49:35Z didi`: I don't think they not being the same is the issue here. 2016-05-14T18:50:13Z flip214: hmmm, and it takes too long for both sorts to just be omitted. 2016-05-14T18:50:22Z didi`: I can invert the `let' forms and LIST still comes ahead. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/c066af72 2016-05-14T18:50:46Z Bike: yeah, works locally too. maybe sharing structure helps with merge sort 2016-05-14T18:51:25Z Bike: maybe -> pretty sure it does but remembering things is hard 2016-05-14T18:52:32Z Bike: sbcl uses heap sort for vectors, it seems 2016-05-14T18:52:55Z Secretmapper quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-14T18:53:03Z DeadTrickster: indeed sbcl uses different implmentation for vectors and lists 2016-05-14T18:55:17Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T18:55:28Z flip214: I guess that the list is sorted by some cache-efficient algorithm, while the array causes too much cache trashing?? 2016-05-14T18:55:57Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:56:48Z Bike: with an array a million long it's going to miss cache anyway 2016-05-14T18:57:03Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:58:20Z TDT joined #lisp 2016-05-14T18:58:42Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T18:59:16Z whiteline quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T18:59:22Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:02:02Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:02:33Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:02:35Z AdmiralBumbleBee joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:02:44Z heurist` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:03:10Z scymtym: we seem to be missing (maybe on purpose for a reason i cannot see right now) a source transform sort -> sort-vector which would enable the source transform on sort-vector. adding such a transform changes the results to LIST: 0.187, ARRAY: 0.157 for me 2016-05-14T19:06:40Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:09:46Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:12:39Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:13:37Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:14:00Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:15:32Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T19:15:40Z shikhin quit (Quit: Alas.) 2016-05-14T19:15:40Z heddwch quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-05-14T19:16:58Z heddwch joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:17:01Z shikhin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:17:20Z devhydraz joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:17:20Z devhydraz quit (Changing host) 2016-05-14T19:17:20Z devhydraz joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:18:01Z vydd quit 2016-05-14T19:18:07Z devhydraz is now known as hydraz 2016-05-14T19:18:07Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:18:24Z phoe_krk: Now that there's such a huge discussion on /r/lisp about lisp-lang's specification project, I have one more additional motivation to push CLUS forwards. 2016-05-14T19:18:35Z phoe_krk: It's going to be a shame if the other person finishes before me. 2016-05-14T19:18:49Z phoe_krk: A shame - for me. 2016-05-14T19:19:17Z didi`: phoe_krk: What is "CLUS"? 2016-05-14T19:19:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:19:34Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: so you two won't be working together after all? 2016-05-14T19:19:38Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:20:07Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: I don't know. xD I didn't get any answer just yet. 2016-05-14T19:20:14Z Nikotiin` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:20:17Z phoe_krk: didi: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/ 2016-05-14T19:20:43Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: and until I get any answer, I assume not. Better safe than heap-exhausted. 2016-05-14T19:22:52Z didi`: phoe_krk: Cool. Was you the one that wrote about your personal lisp crisis? 2016-05-14T19:23:19Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:23:34Z jokleinn joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:23:46Z phoe_krk: didi`: Hum? I don't recall anything like that. The only lisp rant I wrote is the one on the frontpage of CLUS. 2016-05-14T19:24:17Z didi`: phoe_krk: Oh, OK. Then I guess no. I just read it from lobste.rs 2016-05-14T19:24:29Z CompanionCube quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:24:34Z didi`: https://blog.jacius.info/2012/05/29/a-personal-lisp-crisis/ 2016-05-14T19:25:29Z Bike: scymtym: but there's one on stable-sort... well, that's confusing. 2016-05-14T19:25:30Z Naraka: phoe_krk: CLUS looks badass, keep it up. 2016-05-14T19:26:56Z phoe_krk: didi`: that's one very good and valuable post. I've had such a crisis myself, back in the time. 2016-05-14T19:27:32Z fouric: ^ what Naraka said 2016-05-14T19:27:38Z shka: uuuh 2016-05-14T19:27:40Z Cymew: phoe_krk: Looks like a laudable project. 2016-05-14T19:27:47Z shka: how do i sort vector with fill pointer? 2016-05-14T19:28:00Z phoe_krk: I ended up realizing something similar, like, the idea that CL is a mystical language with some magical power broke and I ended up giving in to my doubts, not knowing whether I want to go to the next Lisp meeting that I organize. 2016-05-14T19:28:02Z Bike: use the sort function? 2016-05-14T19:28:02Z shka: should i create displaced-vector or what? 2016-05-14T19:28:31Z shka: one moment 2016-05-14T19:29:13Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-14T19:29:14Z phoe_krk: During that doubt-time I ended up noticing that Common Lisp, the language, isn't worth a single pair of parentheses on its own, it isn't worth a single moment spent on tweaking it, refactoring, even studying it alone. 2016-05-14T19:29:16Z CompanionCube joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:29:17Z CompanionCube quit (Changing host) 2016-05-14T19:29:17Z CompanionCube joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:29:53Z didi`: Harsh. 2016-05-14T19:30:12Z phoe_krk: Only after some time I realized that only once I have someone to code for, someone having a problem, not being satisfied with what they have and knowing what they could have, only then Common Lisp begins to shine - as a very valuable tool on a programmer's way to make people, very much including himself, satisfied. 2016-05-14T19:30:29Z phoe_krk: And only after that I picked up Common Lisp again. One moment of doubt less. 2016-05-14T19:30:49Z phoe_krk: And I'm still doing CLUS, sooooo.~ 2016-05-14T19:30:53Z shka: Bike: i have adjustable vector with fill-pointer, i pushed some lists, i want to order content by car of those lists 2016-05-14T19:31:03Z Bike: okay. 2016-05-14T19:31:08Z shka: but sort want to sort whole vector, including parts that are just 0 2016-05-14T19:31:12Z shka: and 0 is not a list 2016-05-14T19:31:51Z phoe_krk: didi`: Yes, harsh. But I had my priorities very much mixed up. And I made my way out of this, and I'm on much better terms with Lisp thanks to that. 2016-05-14T19:31:57Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:32:04Z didi`: phoe_krk: :-) 2016-05-14T19:33:04Z phoe_krk: Naraka: Cymew: thanks. 2016-05-14T19:33:09Z phoe_krk: fouric: thanks. 2016-05-14T19:34:14Z cvoxel joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:34:38Z Bike: shka: (let ((test (make-array 7 :fill-pointer 2))) (setf (aref test 0) (cons 4 8) (aref test 1) (cons 3 "hello")) (sort test #'< :key #'car)) works for me. 2016-05-14T19:36:07Z Cymew: Me too 2016-05-14T19:37:20Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:39:05Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:39:44Z Cymew: SORT is amazingly handy 2016-05-14T19:40:34Z shka: Bike: ok, sorry for that, i'm puzzled here 2016-05-14T19:40:54Z Bike: you don't need to apologize, i just don't understand what issue you're having. 2016-05-14T19:41:39Z shka: neither do i 2016-05-14T19:41:41Z shka: ;-) 2016-05-14T19:42:08Z phoe_krk: OH ONE MORE THING 2016-05-14T19:42:15Z phoe_krk: I have a working proof of concept right now. 2016-05-14T19:42:21Z phoe_krk: lisp-lang.org does *not*. 2016-05-14T19:42:23Z phoe_krk: ~ 2016-05-14T19:42:28Z shka: Bike: oh, i know what i did wrong 2016-05-14T19:43:16Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T19:43:20Z dstatyvka joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:44:57Z TDT quit (Quit: TDT) 2016-05-14T19:49:57Z je4i`` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:50:44Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:51:55Z je4i quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T19:52:56Z angular_mike joined #lisp 2016-05-14T19:53:07Z angular_mike: how different are lisp and paskal? 2016-05-14T19:53:11Z angular_mike: *haskell? 2016-05-14T19:54:31Z phoe_krk: angular_mike: now that's a pretty tough question. 2016-05-14T19:54:41Z Bike: no, it's easy: very 2016-05-14T19:55:01Z phoe_krk: Lisp, Pascal and Haskell are on somewhat different edges of the programming language spectrum. 2016-05-14T19:55:23Z phoe_krk: Each has a syntax that is very different from the others. 2016-05-14T19:55:35Z phoe_krk: Each has programming paradigms that are very different from the others'. 2016-05-14T19:56:10Z phoe_krk: Pascal is mostly suited for procedures and objects, Haskell has a very strict functional paradigm, while Lisp easily bends to the programmer's will and style. 2016-05-14T19:56:16Z fouric: Would anyone here happen to know what CDR-2 and CDR-8 are as mentioned in (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6368326)? I've Googled and found nothing but snippets of technical discussion from which it is impossible to discern what the things *do*. 2016-05-14T19:56:20Z angular_mike: Bike: I didn't ask "HOw much" 2016-05-14T19:56:34Z Bike: you asked "how different". they are "very different". 2016-05-14T19:56:37Z TeMPOraL: angular_mike: haskell is a cutting-edge-research functional programming language; Common Lisp is a pragmatic language that was built on experience with 30 or so years of previous lisps 2016-05-14T19:56:41Z angular_mike: Bike: now 2016-05-14T19:56:45Z phoe_krk: fouric: https://common-lisp.net/project/cdr/ 2016-05-14T19:56:54Z angular_mike: Bike: let me rephhrase it 2016-05-14T19:57:01Z phoe_krk: CDR has two meanings - one is your other car, the other is Common Lisp Document Repository. 2016-05-14T19:57:02Z TeMPOraL: angular_mike: CL is multiparadigm, giving you facilities for OOP, functional programming, etc. 2016-05-14T19:57:04Z angular_mike: Bike: how are lisp and haskell different 2016-05-14T19:57:07Z angular_mike: ? 2016-05-14T19:57:19Z Bike: oh. temporal pretty much summed it up. 2016-05-14T19:57:19Z shka: angular_mike: very different? 2016-05-14T19:57:20Z phoe_krk: angular_mike: 1) syntax, 2) Haskell is strictly functional, Common Lisp is very not. 2016-05-14T19:57:29Z angular_mike: Bike: is that a website? 2016-05-14T19:57:42Z Bike: ...no, it's the person who answered you thirty seconds ago 2016-05-14T19:57:47Z angular_mike: ? 2016-05-14T19:57:53Z TeMPOraL: -.- 2016-05-14T19:57:57Z angular_mike: oh 2016-05-14T19:58:00Z fouric: phoe_krk! Ah! That makes complete sense; I thought that I was looking for variations on the CDR function. 2016-05-14T19:58:01Z fouric: TIL 2016-05-14T19:58:22Z phoe_krk: fouric: it would be amusing to *have* variationds on the CDR function. 2016-05-14T19:58:27Z fouric: ikr 2016-05-14T19:58:29Z phoe_krk: s/ds/s/ 2016-05-14T19:58:29Z angular_mike: Bike: you mean TeMPOraL ? 2016-05-14T19:58:32Z ggole quit 2016-05-14T19:58:33Z fouric: That's why I was so confused 2016-05-14T19:58:33Z Bike: yes. 2016-05-14T19:58:46Z Bike: it's kind of a weird question to answer. if someone asked you how a dog is different from a fern you could come up with a few things but you'd feel like the question is asked from a strange place. 2016-05-14T19:58:56Z Bike: or a raven and a writing desk, i suppose. 2016-05-14T19:59:05Z phoe_krk: Today, I announce the creation of Common Lisp Archive Repository, fouric. I will call it CAR, because it's obviously an underused acronym in the Lisp world. 2016-05-14T19:59:18Z fouric: Oh please no 2016-05-14T19:59:28Z fouric: We're going to have *so many* confused beginners coming in here 2016-05-14T19:59:36Z fouric: We'd have to change the topic or something 2016-05-14T19:59:53Z phoe_krk: fouric: oh come on, it's not like you have to explain why RPLACA isn't called REPLACE-CAR or something 2016-05-14T19:59:59Z TeMPOraL: I'd also like to announce the Common-lisp Optimized Networking Scripts repository... 2016-05-14T20:00:25Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: just don't explain it, pretend it's all ok 2016-05-14T20:00:35Z TeMPOraL: people don't explain why in C you have printf, scanf, snprintf, etc. 2016-05-14T20:00:48Z Largeaux joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:00:53Z angular_mike: Bike: ok, then how about "What are the key differences between Haskell and Lisp, from perspectives of a Haskell, Lisp, and ALGOL-like programmers"? 2016-05-14T20:01:06Z Bike: that doesn't really change the question. 2016-05-14T20:01:18Z phoe_krk: angular_mike: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-rqniP-3s2N0/UwjB4OaaU9I/AAAAAAAAsRA/9xuRVnKilbM/w506-h340/programming%2Blang%2Bfans.jpg 2016-05-14T20:01:25Z phoe_krk: This should answer your question. 2016-05-14T20:01:28Z TeMPOraL: angular_mike: Haskell: as purely functional as you can probably get, does a lot of lazy evaluation everywhere 2016-05-14T20:01:31Z Bike: i could, like, talk about syntax in detail, but maybe you don't care? I don't know. 2016-05-14T20:01:40Z phoe_krk: I was waiting five months to be able to post this picture as an answer to a #lisp question. 2016-05-14T20:01:43Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T20:01:56Z Bike: Or i could talk about HM type inference, or historical backgrounds, or models of computing hardware... 2016-05-14T20:02:00Z TeMPOraL: angular_mike: Common Lisp: multiparadigm, extremely flexible, has the probably best compile-time computation framework that exists (aka. macros) 2016-05-14T20:02:11Z TeMPOraL: algol-based languages: look funny, otherwise what can I tell... 2016-05-14T20:02:12Z phoe_krk: Actually, http://ww1.sinaimg.cn/large/94c587f4gw1eqntsji873j215o0rzk1l.jpg has a better resolution. 2016-05-14T20:02:15Z fouric: ROFL well played phoe_krk 2016-05-14T20:02:57Z aeth: TeMPOraL: Afaik macros are sometimes compile time, but usually macro expansion time 2016-05-14T20:03:25Z angular_mike: phoe_krk: do you have it in better resolution? 2016-05-14T20:03:49Z TeMPOraL: aeth: true, but I was generalizing for sake of cross-language comparison 2016-05-14T20:04:04Z angular_mike: Bike: what is the best infographic describing key differences between C, Haskell and Lisp 2016-05-14T20:04:39Z angular_mike: phoe_krk: ugh, watermark 2016-05-14T20:05:29Z TeMPOraL: the point is, one of the core things macros allow is to do computation, code modification and code generation pre-runtime (in various places - during code reading, before compilation, etc..) 2016-05-14T20:06:08Z fouric: Heh, CLHS has a *pronunciation guide* for RPLACA/RPLACD 2016-05-14T20:06:27Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:06:28Z aeth: The best way to compare C and Lisp: {} () 2016-05-14T20:06:29Z Bike: why would you want an infographic for anything 2016-05-14T20:06:40Z TeMPOraL: Bike: probably to have a pretty way to convey zero useful information 2016-05-14T20:06:53Z angular_mike: phoe_krk: who's that at ruby fans as seen by java fans? 2016-05-14T20:07:18Z Bike: they're different things. if you want to learn about those things, do so: learn to program in lisp, learn to program in haskell 2016-05-14T20:07:34Z angular_mike: Bike: that's what I'm doing 2016-05-14T20:07:44Z angular_mike: Bike: but I wanted some pics for my archive 2016-05-14T20:08:03Z Bike: your... archive of programming language comparison infographics? 2016-05-14T20:08:06Z phoe_krk: angular_mike: no idea. 2016-05-14T20:08:09Z huitzilopochtli joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:08:20Z angular_mike: Bike: you mean you don't have one? 2016-05-14T20:08:34Z angular_mike: I bought a 1TB external hard drive for that 2016-05-14T20:08:45Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:08:46Z Bike: i think that's my cue to get lunch 2016-05-14T20:09:04Z TeMPOraL: o_0 2016-05-14T20:09:41Z phoe_krk: ...troll detected. 2016-05-14T20:09:43Z angular_mike: phoe_krk: what about Lisp fans as seen by haskell fans? 2016-05-14T20:09:48Z phoe_krk: As much as I hate to say it. 2016-05-14T20:09:58Z xue joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:10:02Z angular_mike: i think it was some philosopher 2016-05-14T20:10:04Z phoe_krk: angular_mike: have fun, I'm done talking to you. 2016-05-14T20:11:46Z shka: angular_mike: i don't know that many haskell programmers to be honest 2016-05-14T20:12:29Z Bike: lisp by haskell is Darwin. 2016-05-14T20:13:07Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:14:49Z Grauwolf joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:15:19Z jsgrant: Bike: A lisp by Darwin, is a footed "Fisth". 2016-05-14T20:15:41Z jsgrant needs to stop spamming these commas like a madman. 2016-05-14T20:16:20Z EvW quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T20:17:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:19:01Z aeth: If you want something in the Lisp family (not Common Lisp itself) to compare to Haskell, try Typed Racket. 2016-05-14T20:19:01Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T20:19:10Z aeth: At least, I think that's the one that's close to Haskell. I've programmed in neither. 2016-05-14T20:19:15Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:20:16Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:20:40Z shka: or even more 2016-05-14T20:20:42Z shka: Qi 2016-05-14T20:20:51Z shka heared good things about this one 2016-05-14T20:21:02Z shka: and it has ml style pattern matching 2016-05-14T20:21:28Z phoe_krk: Shen. 2016-05-14T20:21:38Z Fare joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:21:38Z phoe_krk: That's a child of Haskell and Lisp. 2016-05-14T20:21:44Z phoe_krk: Or so I've heard. 2016-05-14T20:21:50Z s00pcan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T20:22:07Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-14T20:22:09Z random-nick: I have failed to find any trace of the Qi language on the web 2016-05-14T20:22:16Z random-nick: it's a very hard to google name' 2016-05-14T20:22:22Z Quadrescence: Look up the language "Shen" instead 2016-05-14T20:22:23Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:22:26Z Quadrescence: which is the successor 2016-05-14T20:22:37Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:22:54Z shka: they changed name? 2016-05-14T20:23:05Z shka: that was not required 2016-05-14T20:24:26Z Quadrescence: no, it's a new language 2016-05-14T20:24:38Z Quadrescence: which has many similarities but is ultimately a different language 2016-05-14T20:24:40Z sweater quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T20:25:06Z sweater joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:25:48Z shka: ok 2016-05-14T20:27:12Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:30:34Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T20:30:43Z jsgrant quit (Quit: jsgrant) 2016-05-14T20:31:20Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:31:32Z didi`: So for now, my super-shuffler will sort lists instead of vectors. https://paste.debian.net/hidden/a8c125e4 2016-05-14T20:32:17Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:33:43Z Xach: i really truly wonder about stuff like this: https://github.com/ahungry/injection 2016-05-14T20:34:35Z phoe_krk: Xach: it's simple, there's not enough Java in Common Lisp 2016-05-14T20:34:35Z didi`: What is "dependency injection"? 2016-05-14T20:35:04Z phoe_krk: didi`: some funny term Corporate Java Heads made up for FIND-CLASS and now market and monetize it. 2016-05-14T20:35:12Z didi`: phoe_krk: ugh 2016-05-14T20:36:28Z jsgrant quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-14T20:36:29Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:37:19Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:37:25Z Mon_Ouie joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:38:11Z didi`: I read the README but I didn't get it. I guess this is not for me. 2016-05-14T20:39:52Z Xach: The thing I wonder is mainly "Do I have the problem this thing solves, but not know it?" 2016-05-14T20:40:21Z aeth: At least it confirms what I thought. 2016-05-14T20:40:34Z aeth: make-foo functions are really just foo-factory functions in disguise 2016-05-14T20:40:54Z Quadrescence: i never want to hear "foo-factory" ever again in the context of lisp 2016-05-14T20:41:19Z phoe_krk: Xach: I doubt a Lisp programmer has the kind of problems this library is attempting to solve. 2016-05-14T20:42:03Z Guest38804 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:42:34Z aeth: Assuming injection isn't a joke (it's just so Java-style), this is a good thing. 2016-05-14T20:42:45Z aeth: It means new people are learning Common Lisp. 2016-05-14T20:42:54Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-14T20:43:08Z phoe_krk: Maybe they'll learn YAML just isn't necessary here. 2016-05-14T20:43:25Z aeth: This is what happens when a generation (or more at this point?) of CS schools teach Java instead of CS. 2016-05-14T20:44:38Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:44:51Z Bike: maybe ahungry will comment on this when they return. 2016-05-14T20:45:00Z |3b| thinks that sort of thing is more about the type of environment that uses java rather than java itself 2016-05-14T20:45:21Z phoe_krk: s/uses/abuses/ 2016-05-14T20:45:22Z aeth: phoe_krk: Right, what you want is the .sxp file format, not YAML. 2016-05-14T20:45:24Z BeepBeep joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:45:27Z phoe_krk: FTFY |3b| 2016-05-14T20:45:29Z mrcom_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-14T20:45:45Z phoe_krk: aeth: sure, why not? 2016-05-14T20:46:02Z aeth: phoe_krk: with about 5 lines you can use the existing reader to read in a config file, and with a bit of care you can handle the input as plists 2016-05-14T20:46:04Z phoe_krk: It's a fairly natural format for Lisp data considered secure. 2016-05-14T20:46:09Z Fare is glad that someone else is currently hacking on lisp-interface-library 2016-05-14T20:46:37Z aeth: It's basically Lisp's JSON to just do plists as data and read/write them. The naive implementation is trivial. 2016-05-14T20:46:47Z didi`: Fare: What is it? 2016-05-14T20:46:52Z Fare: "dependency injection" sounds just like getting the interface from a special variable. 2016-05-14T20:47:10Z Fare: https://github.com/fare/lisp-interface-library 2016-05-14T20:47:12Z phoe_krk: aeth: yes, and the reader macros are up online, along with a good explanation of how they're implemented. 2016-05-14T20:47:18Z reepca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T20:47:36Z aeth: wait, someone made .sxp a thing? 2016-05-14T20:48:15Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T20:48:33Z TeMPOraL: oh dependency injection, aka. way to make your code even more complicated than it is 2016-05-14T20:48:39Z didi`: Fare: Is it the library that needs to pass the extra argument? 2016-05-14T20:48:45Z sjl: aeth: EDN comes close, and is secure-by-default instead of just using (read) 2016-05-14T20:48:50Z TeMPOraL: yeah, it's kind of a combination of getting the interface from a special variable with strategy pattern 2016-05-14T20:49:03Z BeepBeep: Which testing frameworks are recommended? 2016-05-14T20:49:08Z didi`: BeepBeep: fiveam 2016-05-14T20:49:11Z TeMPOraL: also everybody does it differently and it often results in a huge mess ^_^ 2016-05-14T20:49:29Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:49:59Z BeepBeep: Thanks 2016-05-14T20:50:41Z sjl: unfortunately CL not having a built-in set type (distinct from list) makes EDN slightly messier when mapping to CL 2016-05-14T20:51:14Z BeepBeep quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-14T20:51:26Z Fare: didi`, everyone passes an extra argument around, hence "interface passing style". 2016-05-14T20:51:28Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:51:35Z Fare: though you can make that locally implicit 2016-05-14T20:51:49Z didi`: Fare: Cool. I remember reading about it some time ago. Good work. 2016-05-14T20:51:50Z phoe_krk: Fare: WITH-INTERFACE sort of macro? 2016-05-14T20:52:00Z Fare: phoe_krk, bingo 2016-05-14T20:52:17Z Fare: sjl: lil provides a pure functional set type 2016-05-14T20:52:17Z phoe_krk: Fare: guessed as much. But that's the natural way for Lisp as I perceive it. 2016-05-14T20:52:29Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T20:52:37Z didi`: Uh, and the documentation has been made using Racket. 2016-05-14T20:53:08Z Fare: see the class posh:>hash-table< for instance. 2016-05-14T20:53:08Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T20:53:12Z sjl: Fare: yeah, there's fset too, just nothing built-in, so if someone wants to write cl-edn they'd need to pick a set implementation or hack around it 2016-05-14T20:53:37Z jsgrant: didi`: CL really needs a "Scribble". 2016-05-14T20:53:46Z didi`: jsgrant: You think? I dunno. 2016-05-14T20:54:02Z didi`: I don't use scribble myself. I do use Org Mode tho. 2016-05-14T20:54:13Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T20:54:29Z jsgrant: Some semi-agreed upon documentation language, yeah, I'd think that would be an asset. 2016-05-14T20:55:14Z Fare: sjl: that's why it would be nice for lil (or something better, if someone makes it) to become de-facto standard. 2016-05-14T20:55:40Z didi`: jsgrant: Texinfo is a thing. ;-) 2016-05-14T20:56:17Z Fare: sjl: fset is too sui generis. lil is designed to be extensible, and to offer a standard OO interface (no interface passing) for common data structures (in the classy and posh packages). 2016-05-14T20:56:20Z TeMPOraL: didi`: that scary thing people put in their projects instead of plaintext or a PDF? 2016-05-14T20:56:34Z jsgrant: didi`: I don't care what it is, I just want something that can/would be united under. 2016-05-14T20:56:46Z Fare: jscrant: CL already has a scribble. Had it before PLT. 2016-05-14T20:56:46Z didi`: TeMPOraL: Texinfo is the source format. You can export it to many things. Plaintext and PDF included. 2016-05-14T20:56:59Z jsgrant: Well, I have little care what it is; Would prefer if it was Lispy though. 2016-05-14T20:57:08Z Fare: jscrant: see my Exscribe package 2016-05-14T20:57:24Z didi`: jsgrant: Really? I don't like to write prose using forms. 2016-05-14T20:57:38Z TeMPOraL: jsgrant: TeX is quite lispy if you squint hard enough... 2016-05-14T20:57:42Z Fare: the syntax was called Scribble before PLT Racket's. Though it was different, then, more like Skribe. But it now supports both syntaxes. 2016-05-14T20:57:54Z jsgrant: Fare: Neat, will do. That being said, I don't doubt it -- but the issue is not more-so the tool, but lack of unification. 2016-05-14T20:58:05Z phoe_krk: Give me *anything*, as long as it's either wiki markup or easily convertible to wiki markup. 2016-05-14T20:58:22Z phoe_krk: Then it'll be a matter of whiles to integrate it with the rest of the documentation in the future. 2016-05-14T20:58:27Z jsgrant: Quickdocs is an ugly (not blaming the implementation, the best of the worst situation) solution. 2016-05-14T20:58:32Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: no, it's not. 2016-05-14T20:58:34Z Fare: jsgrant, tell me about it. http://fare.livejournal.com/169346.html 2016-05-14T20:58:42Z TeMPOraL: didi`: yeah, but my point is that this export should be done by the code author... 2016-05-14T20:58:47Z Fare: jsgrant, CL has a culture of loners. Because they can. 2016-05-14T20:58:55Z aeth: jsgrant: CL lacks one dominant implementation that sets the standard way to do things in a project. 2016-05-14T20:59:05Z phoe_krk: http://quickdocs.org/bordeaux-threads/ 2016-05-14T20:59:07Z phoe_krk: http://quickdocs.org/cffi/ 2016-05-14T20:59:16Z phoe_krk: http://quickdocs.org/alexandria/ 2016-05-14T20:59:20Z didi`: TeMPOraL: GNU projects does it when realizing packages. 2016-05-14T20:59:21Z Fare: can quickdocs deal with define-package, at long last? 2016-05-14T20:59:22Z phoe_krk: This is *not* documentation. 2016-05-14T20:59:27Z phoe_krk: These are *not* docs. 2016-05-14T20:59:35Z phoe_krk: These are links to external websites with some additional information. 2016-05-14T20:59:42Z aeth: Lacking this direction, a large, popular application will probably need to set the de facto standards. 2016-05-14T20:59:59Z TeMPOraL: didi`: yeah, I'm just complaining that I've seen enough of those packages who think exporting texinfos as the last step of the makefile is a good idea 2016-05-14T21:00:10Z aeth: ITA's very large application doesn't count because it was kept behind closed doors and is now owned by a Java company. 2016-05-14T21:00:12Z TeMPOraL: s/who/whose authors/ 2016-05-14T21:00:16Z phoe_krk: Which is something I dislike about Quicklisp's current documentation system. It's essentially *not* a documentation system.http://quickdocs.org/alexandria/ 2016-05-14T21:00:24Z Fare: aeth: the only thing that came out of ITA is QITAB plus the common lisp style guide 2016-05-14T21:00:30Z DeadTrickster: GPLv3 for lisp code 2016-05-14T21:00:32Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: Not the best possible, fine I'll faulter on that, but still think as a whole a decent attempt given how big I see the problem to be. 2016-05-14T21:00:32Z DeadTrickster: wtf 2016-05-14T21:00:40Z aeth: Fare: Yes, and that style guide is useful. 2016-05-14T21:00:44Z aeth: Large applications produce things like that. 2016-05-14T21:00:48Z didi`: TeMPOraL: FWIW I really like reading documentation in Emacs's Info. 2016-05-14T21:00:53Z Fare: a C++ / Java / Python / Go / Javascript / DART company. 2016-05-14T21:01:03Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: where? 2016-05-14T21:01:07Z DeadTrickster: injection 2016-05-14T21:01:14Z aeth: Fare: well they tried to impose Java on JavaScript, it's just that no one wanted it 2016-05-14T21:01:17Z didi`: DeadTrickster: Why is this a problem? 2016-05-14T21:01:27Z shka: what is so ugly about ql? 2016-05-14T21:01:35Z aeth: Fare: They are probably increasingly moving away from Java now, especially after the lawsuit 2016-05-14T21:01:58Z ktt9 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:02:14Z Fare: there will be blood. If Oracle wins, that will be a cataclysm. 2016-05-14T21:02:31Z jsgrant: aeth: I mean, is this not how ASDF became leader. It was aptly deemed "the best" at somepoint by a notable number in the community -- not attempted do be regulated? That being said, there are obvious advantanges as why to unify via a system manager over something as typically seen to be an "island" as documentation. 2016-05-14T21:02:42Z Fare: problem is, Google is not good at languages, and may replace Java with something worse. 2016-05-14T21:02:49Z DeadTrickster: didi`, think it's just my personal taste 2016-05-14T21:02:57Z DeadTrickster: like go 2016-05-14T21:02:59Z didi`: DeadTrickster: That's fine. :-) 2016-05-14T21:03:08Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: you know what I want to create, right? The CLUS? 2016-05-14T21:03:12Z Fare: ASDF *was* the best. Not that there was much competition. 2016-05-14T21:03:35Z phoe_krk: Given its internal structure, it will be fairly easy to integrate it with either Quicklisp or Emacs. Or anything else for that matter. 2016-05-14T21:03:58Z TeMPOraL: Fare: *was*? 2016-05-14T21:04:11Z TeMPOraL: oh, in the past? 2016-05-14T21:04:19Z DeadTrickster: was in the future of course 2016-05-14T21:04:22Z Fare: that's how it became the leader 2016-05-14T21:04:39Z Fare: still kind of is, though Bazel is one alternative for some people 2016-05-14T21:04:54Z phoe_krk: Fare: I saw the talk about Bazelisp on the ELS 2016-05-14T21:04:56Z phoe_krk: good job 2016-05-14T21:05:01Z TeMPOraL: Fare: the demonstration I saw last week wasn't very impressive TBH 2016-05-14T21:05:10Z TeMPOraL: though I imagine Google/ITA has some additional secret sauce + actual reason to use it 2016-05-14T21:05:21Z Fare: BTW, in the ELS 2016 paper, I erroneously announced bazelisp as working on MacOS X. I believe there are still bugs making it not usable. 2016-05-14T21:05:36Z Fare: wasn't impressive? 2016-05-14T21:05:41Z jsgrant: Fare: I get the loner bit, and really it is some of the reason I like CL on the community level -- but I think such a thing would be such an asset if somehow injectable ... but yeah, herding bats and all thats. 2016-05-14T21:05:45Z phoe_krk: I suspect it's *the* thing for deploying standalone SBCL instances now, as compared to ASDF/Quicklisp which I perceive as development-mostly 2016-05-14T21:05:47Z Fare: what do you want from a build system? 2016-05-14T21:05:52Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: CLUS? 2016-05-14T21:05:55Z DeadTrickster: google should write lisp frontend for golang runtime 2016-05-14T21:06:08Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php 2016-05-14T21:06:20Z phoe_krk: (I need to promote myself more aggressively now that lisp-lang is also underway) 2016-05-14T21:07:07Z Fare: there are plenty of websites by loners to promote CL. They can't work together. 2016-05-14T21:07:09Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: just mail the guy already :P 2016-05-14T21:07:13Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: I did. 2016-05-14T21:07:32Z phoe_krk: Fare: can't work together - please elaborate 2016-05-14T21:07:51Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: maybe give him a little time; it's weekend, you know, people do non-lisp stuff sometimes during those xD 2016-05-14T21:08:02Z didi`: TeMPOraL: The horror... 2016-05-14T21:08:07Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: wat 2016-05-14T21:08:17Z Fare: The motto of ASDF2 was "more cooperation, less coordination". I fear that's the only way you'll get Lispers to cooperate: by finding self-steering ways that reduce the amount of coordination required to cooperate. 2016-05-14T21:08:19Z phoe_krk: non-lisp stuff? gross 2016-05-14T21:08:50Z Fare: see the historical elements of my asdf3 paper 2016-05-14T21:09:02Z phoe_krk: Fare: I already got a few help offers on this, and see people wanting to help on lisp-lang. That's from the past few days. 2016-05-14T21:09:07Z phoe_krk: s/this/CLUS/ 2016-05-14T21:09:14Z TeMPOraL: Fare: that's a good idea IMO; coordination has a barrier of potential, and it occurs more the lower that barrier is 2016-05-14T21:09:36Z Fare: TeMPOraL, but lowering it is easier said than done. 2016-05-14T21:09:38Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:09:45Z DeadTrickster: every ten year the prophet comes and tries to make CL better 2016-05-14T21:09:46Z DeadTrickster: cool 2016-05-14T21:09:58Z phoe_krk: So I think that with changing times and Git becoming the standard among lispers, it's possible for people to cooperate wherever and however they want, with little coordination happening. 2016-05-14T21:10:04Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: ten years? nah, three or four 2016-05-14T21:10:12Z Fare: it requires a lot more effort on documentation, better designed infrastructure, efforts toward library consolidation, etc. 2016-05-14T21:10:39Z TeMPOraL: Fare: true, but lowering it has at least a chance of working, compared to complaining that "people don't cooperate" which is what most people do 2016-05-14T21:10:44Z TeMPOraL: well, you have to start somewhere 2016-05-14T21:10:48Z DeadTrickster: The only thing people fail to realize is simple - all is needed is money and company behind with right people to create hype 2016-05-14T21:10:51Z TeMPOraL: library consolidation seems to be moving forward 2016-05-14T21:10:56Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:11:06Z TeMPOraL: documentation definitely needs much more focused work now 2016-05-14T21:11:15Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: I'm not rich and experienced enough to create such a company, so this will have to wait 2016-05-14T21:11:33Z phoe_krk: Fare: I'm trying to get a basis for documentation to crystallize upon. 2016-05-14T21:11:47Z Fare: and here's a riddle. Back when I wrote about consolidation, my only success was to get optima to be the "official" replacement for all CL pattern matching libraries by being clearly the best for every single feature. Now someone came and wrote a better replacement for optima called trivia. What should happen next? 2016-05-14T21:11:52Z DeadTrickster: phoe_krk, lol, in 5 years you'll find yourself writing enterprise java 2016-05-14T21:12:19Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:12:23Z DeadTrickster: Fare, define better? better syntax? better performance? 2016-05-14T21:12:29Z Fare: phoe_krk, can you either fix quickdocs or replace it with one of the many rival document-extraction projects? 2016-05-14T21:12:55Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: maybe, but at least I'll put up my work on Git for others to pick up. 2016-05-14T21:12:55Z Fare: DeadTrickster, feature-domination, better syntax, better extensibility, better performance. 2016-05-14T21:13:09Z TeMPOraL: Fare: how much "better" is it? 2016-05-14T21:13:11Z phoe_krk: Fare: I believe I can fix quickdocs. 2016-05-14T21:13:19Z Fare: well, I haven't checked that trivia had all of them, but it claims to have it or aim for it. 2016-05-14T21:13:21Z phoe_krk: It'll take time and much handiwork, but it *is* doable. 2016-05-14T21:13:37Z Fare: phoe_krk, do you now have commit access on quickdocs? 2016-05-14T21:13:44Z DeadTrickster: Fare, right we are paying infamous extensibility price here with syntax. But it claims compatibility 2016-05-14T21:13:47Z phoe_krk: Fare: no, I don't, but I don't need one right now. 2016-05-14T21:13:54Z Fare: phoe_krk, can you please get it to handle UIOP correctly? 2016-05-14T21:14:01Z DeadTrickster: more over it declares itslef as drop in replacement 2016-05-14T21:14:12Z phoe_krk: Fare: I don't have the competences in UIOP to do this. 2016-05-14T21:14:16Z DeadTrickster: so it might be actually good example of evolution 2016-05-14T21:14:25Z phoe_krk: Right now I'm working on parsing the standard and converting it to linked wiki markup. 2016-05-14T21:14:46Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:14:50Z DeadTrickster: you just replace stuff with new one without (almost) breaking your code - sounds amazing 2016-05-14T21:15:01Z Fare: no need for competence in uiop. Just need to make sure packages defined by uiop:define-package (or by any other macro or function) are documented, not just those defined by cl:defpackage. 2016-05-14T21:15:03Z phoe_krk: Once I have this, I will have the time and will to move onto ASDF/UIOP/MOP/Quicklisp/CLIM and all other base libraries. 2016-05-14T21:15:13Z phoe_krk: Fare: soon. 2016-05-14T21:15:22Z TeMPOraL: quickdocs would be better if people could be bothered to write documentation strings... 2016-05-14T21:15:37Z phoe_krk: Working with CL standard will require less work than I originally thought as I keep on finding new regex tricks to help me on my way. 2016-05-14T21:15:51Z Fare: suggestion: instead of trying to catch cl:defpackage via macroexpansion magic, "just" examine the list of packages before and after the system was loaded. 2016-05-14T21:16:04Z aeth: phoe_krk: in cl-ppcre? 2016-05-14T21:16:12Z Fare: (for extra credits, also examine new symbols added to old packages) 2016-05-14T21:16:40Z phoe_krk: aeth: actually, no. I'm using Notepad++. :þ 2016-05-14T21:17:12Z dptd joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:17:14Z Fare: DeadTrickster, so should people "just" s/optima/trivia/ in their code? 2016-05-14T21:17:19Z DeadTrickster: now we'll have to wait until pattern matching completely replaces destructuring-bind and ordinary-lambda-lists 2016-05-14T21:17:31Z DeadTrickster: Fare, that's what author says in readme 2016-05-14T21:18:02Z Fare: DeadTrickster, these days, I use uiop:nest more than pattern matching. But I still use pattern matching. It's also my favorite front-end to cl-ppcre. 2016-05-14T21:18:24Z DeadTrickster: yeah cl-ppcre is rather 'raw' to me 2016-05-14T21:19:12Z DeadTrickster: btw uiop is cool to. it's slowly? takes over the land of lisp 2016-05-14T21:19:46Z DeadTrickster: well there a cheat of course - asdf depends on it but anyway. good change to become true batteries for CL 2016-05-14T21:19:52Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: I don't think Land Of Lisp mentions UIOP anywhere 2016-05-14T21:19:57Z phoe_krk: but I might be wrong, I need to reread it. 2016-05-14T21:20:11Z Fare: things move slow in land of lisp. It takes about 2 years for some asdf improvement to be universally accepted. 2016-05-14T21:20:23Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: it doesn't; AFAIK it's older than ASDF3 / UIOP 2016-05-14T21:20:27Z Fare: phoe_krk, he didn't mean the book 2016-05-14T21:20:30Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: DeadTrickster didn't mean the book 2016-05-14T21:20:34Z phoe_krk: Fare: TeMPOraL: oh 2016-05-14T21:20:49Z phoe_krk: ...don't mind me, my mind is derp 2016-05-14T21:21:13Z Fare: does anyone here use ros? 2016-05-14T21:21:16Z phoe_krk: Fare: but yes, they move slowly, from what I read they always were 2016-05-14T21:21:19Z dormammu: who here runs lisp software in an organization, not student 2016-05-14T21:21:22Z phoe_krk: Fare: a funny thing 2016-05-14T21:21:31Z DeadTrickster: so here is the strategy - include things in uiop and boom after 2 years you'll find em everywhere 2016-05-14T21:21:34Z phoe_krk: I recently wrote a tiny ASDF file generator 2016-05-14T21:21:44Z phoe_krk: and someone actually picked up on it, refactored it and added roswell support 2016-05-14T21:21:50Z phoe_krk: so I guess people actually use it! 2016-05-14T21:21:59Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/asd-generator if you want to see. 2016-05-14T21:22:30Z phoe_krk: dormammu: a few people around, why the question? 2016-05-14T21:23:07Z DeadTrickster: he has a check 2016-05-14T21:23:54Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:23:55Z phoe_krk: a check? 2016-05-14T21:24:26Z DeadTrickster: cheque is you'd like 2016-05-14T21:25:04Z Fare: dormammu, I have 2016-05-14T21:25:27Z phoe_krk: DeadTrickster: forgive me, my English isn't good enough to comprehend this 2016-05-14T21:25:31Z Fare: DeadTrickster, well, uiop itself is supposed to be minimal, and is. 2016-05-14T21:25:32Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: that paper thing people in the US use instead of bank transfers 2016-05-14T21:25:34Z TeMPOraL: ;) 2016-05-14T21:25:42Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: oh 2016-05-14T21:25:43Z phoe_krk: got it 2016-05-14T21:25:44Z DeadTrickster: lol 2016-05-14T21:25:52Z Fare: only the utility functions required to run asdf. 2016-05-14T21:26:14Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:26:19Z DeadTrickster: Fare, pshhh we won't tell anyone :-) 2016-05-14T21:26:28Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:26:36Z DeadTrickster: seriously though I think this might be a good change actually 2016-05-14T21:26:43Z DeadTrickster: but who knows 2016-05-14T21:26:58Z dptd quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-14T21:27:01Z DeadTrickster: s/change/chance 2016-05-14T21:27:29Z Fare: what do you generate the asd file from? 2016-05-14T21:27:41Z Fare: DeadTrickster, what change? 2016-05-14T21:27:56Z DeadTrickster: Fade, s/change/chance 2016-05-14T21:28:40Z Fare: I admit including nest in uiop was a slight stretch already, though I believe it's the right thing in the end. 2016-05-14T21:29:27Z phoe_krk: Fare: was this a question to me? what I generate the ASD file from? 2016-05-14T21:29:54Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:30:02Z Fare: phoe_krk, yes 2016-05-14T21:30:03Z didi`: Hehe. The hyperspec defines "fresh". <3 2016-05-14T21:30:14Z phoe_krk: Fare: https://github.com/phoe-krk/asd-generator does have an example. Look for the *data* variable. 2016-05-14T21:30:28Z phoe_krk: That's how I specify the :COMPONENTS load order inside the ASD file. 2016-05-14T21:31:12Z phoe_krk: The *data* and the list of all .lisp files in my project (below it) is all that I need to (re)generate the ASD file. 2016-05-14T21:31:45Z phoe_krk: It's very simple and doesn't comprehend modules - but I use it to build my own tiny project because I'm too lazy to update the .asd by hand. 2016-05-14T21:31:54Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:31:58Z phoe_krk: And with the simple rules I implemented, it works. 2016-05-14T21:32:07Z DeadTrickster: anyway imo what is really needed is green threads (with reductions of course). I wrote stuff recently using both promises and callback. oh dear 2016-05-14T21:32:15Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:33:05Z Fare: phoe_krk, ok 2016-05-14T21:33:18Z DeadTrickster: I can handle syntax 'moments' myself but even backporting cmucl threads to sbcl is too much for (at least) me 2016-05-14T21:33:34Z Fare: I don't find that very tasteful 2016-05-14T21:33:49Z phoe_krk: Fare: it's not really meant to be tasteful. 2016-05-14T21:33:49Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T21:33:59Z Fare: because the .asd is not the master file (or does it become so after generation)? 2016-05-14T21:34:00Z phoe_krk: Nothing beats handcrafted ASDF:DEFSYSTEM. 2016-05-14T21:34:02Z DeadTrickster: it's not a surprise golang and erlang/otp is getting momentum. even python has async construct 2016-05-14T21:34:04Z Nuri quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T21:34:06Z phoe_krk: Master file? 2016-05-14T21:34:40Z Fare: or is that to help porting existing code from a different build system? 2016-05-14T21:34:43Z phoe_krk: No no. 2016-05-14T21:34:58Z phoe_krk: This reads an existing .ASD file and updates its :COMPONENTS based on what's found on the filesystem. 2016-05-14T21:35:07Z Fare: lparallel wasn't bad when I used it, but needed cleanup and documentation 2016-05-14T21:35:20Z phoe_krk: Basically, you create some new files, don't put them in the .ASD file. 2016-05-14T21:35:28Z phoe_krk: You run ASD-GENERATOR:REGEN instead. 2016-05-14T21:35:37Z Fare: how does it figure dependencies? 2016-05-14T21:35:42Z Fare: new files always at the end? 2016-05-14T21:35:52Z phoe_krk: Depends; look at the example, *data* part. 2016-05-14T21:36:05Z phoe_krk: You specify the order there. 2016-05-14T21:36:27Z phoe_krk: ...I need to fix indentation there, brb. 2016-05-14T21:36:38Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:37:42Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T21:38:13Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:38:16Z phoe_krk: Back. 2016-05-14T21:38:47Z phoe_krk: Now *data* should be readable. 2016-05-14T21:40:38Z phoe_krk: Files that don't match anything at the current level go where (:rest) is. 2016-05-14T21:41:15Z phoe_krk: also, DeadTrickster: right now I'm writing corporate Java and JavaScript and I say, YUCK 2016-05-14T21:41:45Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: Sorry, was afk for a bit. I'm always happy to see Spec detailing projects. :^) 2016-05-14T21:41:51Z phoe_krk: I'm only doing this to finish JSCL and understand ABCL later on. 2016-05-14T21:41:55Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: :D I'm glad. 2016-05-14T21:41:56Z jsgrant: One of these days, I'll need to commit to memory some of this stuff. 2016-05-14T21:42:02Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: memory? 2016-05-14T21:42:08Z myk267 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:42:37Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: You have to memorize the doctrine ... when moving up in the hiearchy of the cult. :^) 2016-05-14T21:42:50Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: oh wow 2016-05-14T21:43:03Z jsgrant: "Cult of Lisp" yadda yadda. 2016-05-14T21:44:11Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: National Religion of Java? 2016-05-14T21:44:40Z jsgrant convinced himself today, to finally go back somefactor of full-in to CL tooling. 2016-05-14T21:45:24Z ksool joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:45:46Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: memory - also known as "brain", is a piece of wetware that humans use as cache for information they need to recall faster than a google query allows 2016-05-14T21:46:17Z jsgrant: Next month, I do plan on a "starting again as-if you basically starting from scratch" trek though. 2016-05-14T21:46:53Z jsgrant: Took a couple months mostly off, in attempts to be "practical" and more hire-able. 2016-05-14T21:47:27Z Fare: phoe_krk, are you the author of jscl? 2016-05-14T21:47:45Z TeMPOraL: jsgrant: I have a (hopefully, if they prolong the agreement) job atm, but I keep promising myself I'll spend a month or so on catching up with current "hot" technologies to improve hireability 2016-05-14T21:48:58Z phoe_krk: Fare: no, I'm not. 2016-05-14T21:49:12Z phoe_krk: But I was talking with beach at the ELS at how it can be finished. 2016-05-14T21:50:37Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-14T21:50:58Z Fare: is JSCL related to SICL? 2016-05-14T21:51:12Z jsgrant: Fare: I couldn't see a possible way how. 2016-05-14T21:51:14Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:51:47Z phoe_krk: Fare: no, not at all. 2016-05-14T21:51:51Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:51:59Z jsgrant is lucky to happen to live in a relatively new and popular "startup haven", might have a chance to do one or similar. The issue is, I need to commit at somepoint and stop "just talking about it^tm". 2016-05-14T21:52:15Z phoe_krk: But nevertheless beach provided me with a few insights into how certain basic Lisp constructs can be implemented, and how certain complex Lisp constructs can be bootstrapped. 2016-05-14T21:53:13Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: Any selling points of JSCL over Parenscript? 2016-05-14T21:54:05Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: yes, it's the other side of the mirror. 2016-05-14T21:54:16Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:54:24Z phoe_krk: Parenscript compiles a subset of Common Lisp *to* JavaScript. 2016-05-14T21:54:35Z phoe_krk: JSCL is a Common Lisp implementation running *on* JavaScript. 2016-05-14T21:54:47Z jsgrant: AH! Okay, sorry. 2016-05-14T21:54:55Z phoe_krk: http://learnlispthehardway.org/try-lisp/ 2016-05-14T21:54:58Z p_l: /act/act 2016-05-14T21:54:59Z Josh2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T21:55:15Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T21:55:33Z arbv quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T21:57:26Z Fare: jsgrant, sorry, a way how what? 2016-05-14T21:58:02Z didi` left #lisp 2016-05-14T21:58:21Z Fare: phoe_krk, so you can take a CL implementation in CL, and compile it to JS with parenscript? 2016-05-14T21:58:29Z jsgrant: Fare: A way SICL and JSCL are in any way directly related, from the little I know (very little regarding JSCL) about the two projects. 2016-05-14T21:58:46Z phoe_krk: Fare: Parenscript is not advanced enough to do this. 2016-05-14T21:58:49Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: Yeah, yeah, that's what I remember it from. 2016-05-14T21:58:57Z jsgrant: That "interactive book" site. 2016-05-14T21:58:58Z phoe_krk: A lot of Lisp code is not directly compilable with Parenscript. 2016-05-14T21:59:32Z phoe_krk: Also, it doesn't implement many of Lisp's special forms. TAGBODY is the first example 2016-05-14T21:59:47Z Fare: phoe_krk, that's where you bootstrap, by compiling your CL in CL implementation to the CL subset supported by PS :-) 2016-05-14T22:00:05Z phoe_krk: Fare: xD 2016-05-14T22:00:06Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T22:00:09Z aeth: phoe_krk: What's interesting is that at least in SBCL, all the iteration is eventually just TAGBODY and GO if you macroexpand enough 2016-05-14T22:00:30Z aeth: Except maybe map, idk how that works. I suspect it's similar because it's just as fast as do and loop in most cases. 2016-05-14T22:00:41Z aeth: (not a macro, though) 2016-05-14T22:00:53Z phoe_krk: aeth: iteration on all von Neumann machines is essentially TAGBODY and GO 2016-05-14T22:01:25Z Bike: usually the same way as anything else. e.g., on sbcl it uses do. you can also do it recursively, of course. 2016-05-14T22:01:27Z Guest41397 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:01:46Z phoe_krk: oh, yeah, Lisp has only two ways of repeating things deep down inside. 2016-05-14T22:01:50Z phoe_krk: One is GO and the other is recursion. 2016-05-14T22:02:08Z phoe_krk: DO, DOLIST, LOOP, ITERATE, they're all lies. 2016-05-14T22:02:11Z phoe_krk: s/lies/macros/ 2016-05-14T22:02:15Z phoe_krk: That expand into TAGBODY and GO. 2016-05-14T22:02:16Z aeth: von Neumann machine sounds very sci fi. 2016-05-14T22:02:23Z phoe_krk: aeth: it's not, you're typing on one now. 2016-05-14T22:02:28Z aeth: :o 2016-05-14T22:02:33Z xmad quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:02:37Z phoe_krk: you're staring at an implementation of a von Neumann computer. 2016-05-14T22:02:41Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: The Macro is a Lie. 2016-05-14T22:02:48Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: VN machine != VN computer 2016-05-14T22:02:50Z jsgrant puts on his hipster glasses. 2016-05-14T22:02:50Z Bike: (one of) the sci fi thing(s) von neumann came up with was the clanking replicator, which sounds a lot less sci fi 2016-05-14T22:02:53Z phoe_krk: With an arithmetical-logical unit, memory, registers, bus. 2016-05-14T22:02:55Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: gasp 2016-05-14T22:03:00Z didi` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:03:03Z phoe_krk: please fix me if I'm wrong 2016-05-14T22:03:08Z phoe_krk: I might have mixed these two together. 2016-05-14T22:03:13Z TeMPOraL: VN machine is a self-replicating probe that flies somewhere, gathers resources to make more copies of itself, and send the copies further 2016-05-14T22:03:30Z TeMPOraL: the idea is that it could cut down the time to explore the entire galaxy to AFAIR a few million years tops 2016-05-14T22:03:36Z phoe_krk: oh, basically a human being 2016-05-14T22:03:37Z phoe_krk: I see 2016-05-14T22:03:40Z didi`: What is the difference between (make-sequence 'simple-vector 42) and (make-sequence 'vector 42)? They seem to generate the same kind of object: simple-vector 2016-05-14T22:03:44Z TeMPOraL: due to the exponential replication 2016-05-14T22:04:02Z TeMPOraL: also related concept, if aliens would made such a machine, we'd see one by now 2016-05-14T22:04:04Z phoe_krk: clhs simple-vector 2016-05-14T22:04:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_smp_ve.htm 2016-05-14T22:04:12Z Nikotiin` joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:04:19Z TeMPOraL: also related concept: a von neumann probe out of control is an existential risk to the galaxy... 2016-05-14T22:04:37Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: just like humans are 2016-05-14T22:05:52Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:05:54Z Nikotiini quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:06:00Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:06:34Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:06:38Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T22:08:01Z aeth: phoe_krk: Afaik optimized tail recursion is just tagbody and go, too. 2016-05-14T22:08:14Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:08:34Z phoe_krk: aeth: yes, it is. That's exactly what TCO does, optimizing full function calls to resetting variables and GO to beginning. 2016-05-14T22:08:48Z phoe_krk: s/resetting/setting to new values/ 2016-05-14T22:10:25Z Bike: didi`: probably make-sequence just uses a simple-vector for all unspecialized vectors, because why not. 2016-05-14T22:10:43Z didi`: Bike: Thank you. 2016-05-14T22:10:48Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:10:57Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:11:23Z phoe_krk: I think I'm going to sleep, my nerves need it. 2016-05-14T22:12:40Z TeMPOraL: 'nighty phoe_krk 2016-05-14T22:12:59Z cods quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:13:29Z je4i`` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:14:31Z xmad joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:17:07Z LaGaVuLiN__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:18:25Z Fare: don't call it TCO. Call it PTC. 2016-05-14T22:18:42Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: o/ 2016-05-14T22:18:48Z didi` left #lisp 2016-05-14T22:18:48Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T22:19:26Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:20:16Z cvoxel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T22:20:49Z phoe_krk: PTC? 2016-05-14T22:20:57Z Largeaux quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:21:06Z phoe_krk: Ah, proper tail call. 2016-05-14T22:22:36Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:26:36Z axion: Hello all 2016-05-14T22:27:40Z axion: Is it possible to write a setf-expander as a macro? That is a macro with a name that is not a symbol? Or any other way to do it? 2016-05-14T22:29:16Z moore33: define-setf-expander essentially defines a macro. What are you trying to do? 2016-05-14T22:29:45Z aeth: Fare: Afaik, it's TCO in most languages, and PTC in languages where it's expected (like Scheme). 2016-05-14T22:29:55Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:30:12Z aeth: Since you can't expect it in CL unless they update the spec, I'm not sure calling it PTC works. 2016-05-14T22:30:45Z jsmith__ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T22:31:05Z axion: moore33: I'm writing a macro that defines other macros for arbitrary data. I have a reader, but I need an accessor 2016-05-14T22:32:11Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:32:26Z eudoxia: phoe_krk: are you here 2016-05-14T22:33:18Z moore33: axion: If your macro for the reader doesn't macroexpand into something setf-able, then you big definition macro could define a setf expander too. 2016-05-14T22:33:26Z moore33: Lots of nested backquotes. 2016-05-14T22:33:38Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T22:34:01Z axion: Oh you know what., it does. Ignore me. My code works just fine. 2016-05-14T22:34:03Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:35:22Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: yes 2016-05-14T22:35:24Z phoe_krk: I am here 2016-05-14T22:35:27Z eudoxia: hello 2016-05-14T22:35:34Z phoe_krk: Hey hi! Glad to meet you. 2016-05-14T22:35:51Z eudoxia: I agree we should join forces to create a successor the hyperspec that will sweep it into the dustbin of history 2016-05-14T22:35:56Z eudoxia: nice to meet you as well 2016-05-14T22:36:00Z jsmith__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T22:36:18Z eudoxia: with your smarts, and my good looks, we can totally get this done! 2016-05-14T22:36:20Z phoe_krk: Good. What do you think of my CLUS project? 2016-05-14T22:36:22Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:36:24Z phoe_krk: ;D 2016-05-14T22:36:24Z eudoxia: now I have a couple of questions 2016-05-14T22:36:34Z phoe_krk: Ask away, I still have a while before sleep. 2016-05-14T22:36:41Z eudoxia: ok cool 2016-05-14T22:36:51Z aeth: You know what will really feel strange? Using a SLIME-style inferior Common Lisp in a Common Lisp editor in StumpWM. Three layers of Lisps. 2016-05-14T22:36:55Z eudoxia: I've seen you have a proof of concept that converts TeX to reStructuredText, right? 2016-05-14T22:37:41Z phoe_krk: It's not an automated tool, but I was able to create a set of about ~130 regexes that, when applied in a proper order, convert the original TeX files into wiki markup. 2016-05-14T22:37:51Z eudoxia: hmm 2016-05-14T22:37:59Z eudoxia: yeah I've read somewhere you used regexes 2016-05-14T22:38:04Z eudoxia: this makes me uneasy 2016-05-14T22:38:20Z eudoxia: because TeX is a god damn hellscape 2016-05-14T22:38:32Z eudoxia: does it handle nested cases well? 2016-05-14T22:38:35Z aeth: I wonder if those regexes could be converted to cl-ppcre 2016-05-14T22:38:40Z phoe_krk: aeth: I don't know. 2016-05-14T22:38:49Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: I don't handle nested cases at all 2016-05-14T22:38:55Z eudoxia: oh dang 2016-05-14T22:38:58Z phoe_krk: I've made that mistake, to try and handle them, some time ago. 2016-05-14T22:39:03Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T22:39:09Z phoe_krk: My regexes right now handle only braces which contain no other braces. 2016-05-14T22:39:12Z eudoxia: hmm 2016-05-14T22:39:14Z eudoxia: I see 2016-05-14T22:39:21Z phoe_krk: And I apply them manually as necessary. 2016-05-14T22:39:25Z phoe_krk: It's not tedious work. 2016-05-14T22:39:26Z eudoxia: well, my converter is a multi-stage rocket 2016-05-14T22:39:32Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: as I assumed :D 2016-05-14T22:39:42Z eudoxia: well, it might not be tedious, but ideally we want to make it automated and reproducible 2016-05-14T22:40:08Z eudoxia: so, stage 0: some simple preprocessing. stage 1 is simple rewriting regexes. stage 2 is parsing using plump-tex 2016-05-14T22:40:18Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: we differ in this place; I want to convert the mess of TeX code that the standard is into much simpler wiki markup. 2016-05-14T22:40:19Z eudoxia: then, when you have a document tree, you can start traversing it and generating stuff 2016-05-14T22:40:26Z eudoxia: I want to do an intermediate thing 2016-05-14T22:40:28Z phoe_krk: And once I have it, I have the documentation. 2016-05-14T22:40:34Z eudoxia: my converter emits XML 2016-05-14T22:40:36Z eudoxia: the idea is 2016-05-14T22:40:48Z eudoxia: dump the spec to XML, in a correct, reproducible way 2016-05-14T22:40:53Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: yes, I noticed your XML generator. 2016-05-14T22:40:55Z jsmith__ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:40:55Z eudoxia: and *then* that XML can be converted to arbitrary formats 2016-05-14T22:41:07Z eudoxia: the idea is it shouldn't be tied, like the hyperspec, to a specific output format 2016-05-14T22:41:07Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T22:41:12Z jsmith__ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:41:27Z eudoxia: maybe you want a single HTML file, or a PDF file, or a web interface that's searchable through text, tags, hyperlinks, etc. 2016-05-14T22:41:34Z phoe_krk: I share this idea! The difference in my case is, I actually utilize wiki markup instead of XML. 2016-05-14T22:41:39Z eudoxia: (currently it dumps a 200 meg broken XML file) 2016-05-14T22:41:42Z phoe_krk: Yes, I saw. 2016-05-14T22:42:00Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:42:05Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316049 <- this is an example of what I'm working on right now. 2016-05-14T22:42:09Z eudoxia: also I don't recall how my project handles TeX macros 2016-05-14T22:42:30Z phoe_krk: It's almost ready for being posted up. It's also very, very simple markup, easy to be implemented anywhere. 2016-05-14T22:42:39Z phoe_krk: Like, any simple parser will understand this. 2016-05-14T22:42:58Z phoe_krk: And therefore will be able to convert to XML, HTML, PDF, back into TeX (xD). 2016-05-14T22:43:02Z eudoxia: I see 2016-05-14T22:43:13Z eudoxia: my problem with higher-level formats like rst as a target for this 2016-05-14T22:43:14Z phoe_krk: I chose DokuWiki because I know it and how to use it. 2016-05-14T22:43:21Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:43:22Z eudoxia: is that they are not easily extensible 2016-05-14T22:43:27Z eudoxia: so, like, if you want to tag a heading 2016-05-14T22:43:34Z eudoxia: as being, say, a description of a special operator 2016-05-14T22:43:38Z eudoxia: that's not too easy 2016-05-14T22:43:40Z phoe_krk: I see. 2016-05-14T22:43:58Z eudoxia: or like, how you have tagged glossary entries with `cl:glossary` 2016-05-14T22:44:14Z eudoxia: (I like rST because it's more extensible than Markdown, but doesn't get you 100% of the way there) 2016-05-14T22:44:18Z eudoxia: oh, also, important thing 2016-05-14T22:44:20Z eudoxia: TeX macros 2016-05-14T22:44:30Z eudoxia: my converter just stores them in XML 2016-05-14T22:44:31Z eudoxia: e.g. 2016-05-14T22:44:40Z eudoxia: \def\mymacro#1{herp derp #1 herp derp} 2016-05-14T22:44:40Z phoe_krk: Yes. They still need to be properly processed. 2016-05-14T22:44:42Z eudoxia: might become 2016-05-14T22:44:48Z phoe_krk: And each chapter does macros differently. 2016-05-14T22:45:04Z phoe_krk: Which makes a mess. 2016-05-14T22:45:05Z eudoxia: herp derp herp derp 2016-05-14T22:45:17Z phoe_krk: Like, there are different macros used in each chapter. 2016-05-14T22:45:25Z eudoxia: yeah there's a gigantic collection of macros 2016-05-14T22:45:28Z eudoxia: for every triviality 2016-05-14T22:45:31Z phoe_krk: And suddenly a table out of nowhere. 2016-05-14T22:45:36Z phoe_krk: I use regex for these. 2016-05-14T22:45:43Z phoe_krk: And mostly succeed. 2016-05-14T22:45:52Z phoe_krk: For places like sudden and unexpected tables, I just clean up by hand. 2016-05-14T22:45:53Z eudoxia: like \thefunction{cons} expands to "the \glossary{function} \tt{defun}" 2016-05-14T22:45:54Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T22:46:05Z phoe_krk: s/defun/cons/ 2016-05-14T22:46:08Z eudoxia: yeah that 2016-05-14T22:46:11Z phoe_krk: But yes, I noticed these and had to deal with them. 2016-05-14T22:46:23Z eudoxia: for this one use case a giant table of regexes can probably work 2016-05-14T22:46:26Z eudoxia: since it's a one-off thing 2016-05-14T22:46:32Z phoe_krk: Yes, this is doable. 2016-05-14T22:46:34Z eudoxia: once you've converted the spec to a more reasonable format 2016-05-14T22:46:37Z eudoxia: you can start from there 2016-05-14T22:46:42Z phoe_krk: You're using a much bigger parser so you can implement these. 2016-05-14T22:46:44Z eudoxia: making edits, dumping to other formats 2016-05-14T22:46:50Z eudoxia: yeah 2016-05-14T22:46:51Z phoe_krk: You know what - tomorrow I'll send you the regexes I've used. 2016-05-14T22:46:57Z phoe_krk: Like, the collection so far. 2016-05-14T22:46:58Z eudoxia: well, this works on trees 2016-05-14T22:47:01Z eudoxia: and there's like 2016-05-14T22:47:03Z eudoxia: a whole miniframework 2016-05-14T22:47:10Z eudoxia: for turning these TeX trees 2016-05-14T22:47:13Z eudoxia: into XML 2016-05-14T22:47:14Z eudoxia: :/ 2016-05-14T22:47:17Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: such a huge codebase for working on a single document :D 2016-05-14T22:47:19Z eudoxia: developed from experience 2016-05-14T22:47:23Z eudoxia: yesssssss 2016-05-14T22:47:24Z eudoxia: it sucks 2016-05-14T22:47:33Z phoe_krk: Which is why I do a lot of stuff by hand and manual regex. 2016-05-14T22:47:39Z eudoxia: I've approached this problem like three times before, became unwieldy every time 2016-05-14T22:47:43Z eudoxia: this is the closest I've come 2016-05-14T22:47:53Z phoe_krk: ... 2016-05-14T22:47:53Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T22:47:54Z jsmith__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T22:47:56Z eudoxia: still, though 2016-05-14T22:47:57Z phoe_krk: I just got the worst pun 2016-05-14T22:48:04Z phoe_krk: CLOS, CLOSer, the CLOSest 2016-05-14T22:48:10Z eudoxia: ahahaha 2016-05-14T22:48:13Z eudoxia: CLOSest to Spec 2016-05-14T22:48:17Z phoe_krk: somebody put me back in #lispcafe 2016-05-14T22:48:19Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:48:29Z eudoxia: uh what was I gonna say 2016-05-14T22:48:30Z eudoxia: oh yeah 2016-05-14T22:48:33Z eudoxia: there are only like 2016-05-14T22:48:44Z eudoxia: ~15 macros the converter doesn't recognize 2016-05-14T22:48:47Z eudoxia: well 2016-05-14T22:48:52Z eudoxia: s/macros/TeX constructs 2016-05-14T22:48:54Z phoe_krk: That's very good! Not a huge amount. 2016-05-14T22:48:56Z eudoxia: once those are handled 2016-05-14T22:48:56Z jsgrant punts phoe_krk to le cafe'. 2016-05-14T22:49:01Z phoe_krk ow. 2016-05-14T22:49:04Z eudoxia: yeah you should've seen the list when I started 2016-05-14T22:49:13Z gdmalet joined #lisp 2016-05-14T22:49:21Z jsgrant: Oh, Charlie Brown! 2016-05-14T22:49:21Z eudoxia: once those are handled it's just a matter of nudging the converter into producing proper XML 2016-05-14T22:49:37Z eudoxia: once *that* is done 2016-05-14T22:49:38Z gdmalet is now known as Guest21367 2016-05-14T22:49:47Z eudoxia: and the markup+TeX macro definitions+TeX macro calls are done 2016-05-14T22:50:01Z papachan: hi eudoxia nive work with lisp-lang.org site ! 2016-05-14T22:50:10Z eudoxia: ... then I can start work on an XML macroexpander and XML->{whatever} outputter 2016-05-14T22:50:14Z eudoxia: papachan: thanks! 2016-05-14T22:50:17Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T22:50:22Z eudoxia: god I hate the fucking spec 2016-05-14T22:50:26Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: we approach this problem very differently 2016-05-14T22:50:30Z eudoxia: yes 2016-05-14T22:50:35Z phoe_krk: you're writing a machine to do the job for you 2016-05-14T22:50:40Z jsgrant: Oh, didn't even notice they were the individual. Yeah, eudoxia great job. 2016-05-14T22:50:47Z eudoxia: I'm autistically obsessed with making sure the output is correct :I 2016-05-14T22:50:50Z phoe_krk: I'm jumping into the work with my own hands 2016-05-14T22:50:55Z eudoxia: jsgrant: thanks to you too! 2016-05-14T22:50:56Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: :D 2016-05-14T22:52:59Z phoe_krk: Maybe 2016-05-14T22:53:16Z phoe_krk: I know how we could cooperate, for now. 2016-05-14T22:53:30Z phoe_krk: I'll ask you to show me around your code a little bit, like, ask for explanation 2016-05-14T22:53:45Z eudoxia: I can do that 2016-05-14T22:54:02Z eudoxia: have you tried it, like, locally? 2016-05-14T22:54:05Z phoe_krk: And send you the little bit of CLUS-ready standard that I already have, so your correctness obsession can do its thing on it. 2016-05-14T22:54:14Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: yes, I run it, I generated the XML file. 2016-05-14T22:54:18Z eudoxia: neat 2016-05-14T22:54:20Z phoe_krk: But I didn't poke into the code just yet. 2016-05-14T22:54:25Z eudoxia: also where's the CLUS repo? 2016-05-14T22:54:58Z phoe_krk: There's none just yet - I will set one up tomorrow. 2016-05-14T22:55:12Z eudoxia: okk 2016-05-14T22:55:27Z phoe_krk: I had no need to set one up until now, but luckily it's changing. :D 2016-05-14T22:55:31Z eudoxia: neat 2016-05-14T22:55:32Z eudoxia: hmm 2016-05-14T22:55:41Z eudoxia: even if you can't uh do it all automatically 2016-05-14T22:55:50Z eudoxia: you can probably find a way to apply regexes "manually" 2016-05-14T22:55:56Z eudoxia: like as a pipeline in your code 2016-05-14T22:56:07Z eudoxia: and just keep adding regexes until you notice the output to be perfect 2016-05-14T22:56:22Z phoe_krk: It will not be 2016-05-14T22:56:28Z eudoxia: oh sure 2016-05-14T22:56:32Z eudoxia: hm 2016-05-14T22:56:33Z phoe_krk: There are things that regexes won't do, there's some handiwork required 2016-05-14T22:56:36Z eudoxia: then again it doesn't matter 2016-05-14T22:56:39Z eudoxia: no no I mean 2016-05-14T22:56:49Z phoe_krk: But yes - they can make it pretty close to perfection. 2016-05-14T22:56:52Z eudoxia: when you process the text and see "hmm there's an error here!" 2016-05-14T22:56:56Z phoe_krk: Ah, yes 2016-05-14T22:57:01Z phoe_krk: It's precisely what I'm doing right now 2016-05-14T22:57:02Z eudoxia: you can add a regex to fix that error 2016-05-14T22:57:11Z eudoxia: so it's done "semi-manually" 2016-05-14T22:57:12Z eudoxia: as in 2016-05-14T22:57:13Z phoe_krk: Adding a regex and running it over all the separate files 2016-05-14T22:57:16Z eudoxia: manually, but by the computer 2016-05-14T22:57:21Z eudoxia: if that makes sense? 2016-05-14T22:57:24Z phoe_krk: It does. 2016-05-14T22:57:33Z eudoxia: and you just keep adding regexes and recranking the output until it looks good 2016-05-14T22:57:39Z phoe_krk: Mhm! 2016-05-14T22:57:41Z eudoxia: and the program is just a gigantic pipeline of regexes 2016-05-14T22:57:48Z phoe_krk: Ewwwww. :P 2016-05-14T22:57:53Z eudoxia: yeah well 2016-05-14T22:58:02Z eudoxia: there are no good solutions to this problem 2016-05-14T22:58:26Z phoe_krk: But there are some that are decent enough. 2016-05-14T22:58:36Z eudoxia: it's either a Keystone XL-sized pipeline of regexes upon regexes wrapped in regexes 2016-05-14T22:58:45Z phoe_krk: My proof of concept is a living example of it. 2016-05-14T22:58:47Z eudoxia: or a towering pile of autism and DSLs 2016-05-14T22:58:52Z eudoxia: yes 2016-05-14T22:59:13Z eudoxia: maybe I _was_ overthinking it 2016-05-14T22:59:17Z phoe_krk: "Parsing the CL standard: it's either a Keystone XL-sized pipeline of regexes upon regexes wrapped in regexes or a towering pile of autism and DSLs" 2016-05-14T22:59:46Z phoe_krk: thanks, one more quote for #lisp-pl's ood :D 2016-05-14T23:00:04Z aeth: Fare: Oh, by the way, I disagree that Lisp has a culture of loners. e.g. Look at the Lisp game projects. Usually there's 1 or 2 people behind each project, but that's because it's quite modular. The community itself is large and uses each other's projects. 2016-05-14T23:00:25Z eudoxia: yeah too bad it's not under 140 characters 2016-05-14T23:00:29Z phoe_krk: aeth: Fare: Git made it so much easier for the Lisp "loners" to begin cooperating. 2016-05-14T23:00:34Z aeth: I'm probably the most NIH person in #lispgames and I use cl-opengl, sb-cga, cl-sdl2, and mathkit. I even contribute small patches upstream. 2016-05-14T23:00:40Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: split it in two tweets. 2016-05-14T23:00:44Z eudoxia: hmm 2016-05-14T23:00:52Z eudoxia: loses a bit of the punch tho :/ 2016-05-14T23:00:53Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T23:00:57Z eudoxia: so anyways 2016-05-14T23:01:02Z eudoxia: you get that repo up when you can 2016-05-14T23:01:08Z eudoxia: let's do this shit 2016-05-14T23:01:10Z aeth: phoe_krk: git and quicklisp 2016-05-14T23:01:15Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-14T23:01:32Z phoe_krk: aeth: ^ 2016-05-14T23:01:35Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: parsing #clstandard is either a Keystone XL-sized pipeline of regexes upon regexes wrapped in regexes or a towering pile of autism and DSLs 2016-05-14T23:01:38Z phoe_krk: exactly 140 chars 2016-05-14T23:01:40Z phoe_krk: there you go :D 2016-05-14T23:01:46Z aeth: phoe_krk: I have about a dozen things from git in my quicklisp local-projects, and the rest are just direct from Quicklisp... And most of my local-projects are just to be more current than Quicklisp, it's all in Quicklisp 2016-05-14T23:01:47Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: yes, I will do it tomorrow 2016-05-14T23:01:57Z phoe_krk: aeth: Quicklisp *is* a blessing indeed 2016-05-14T23:02:06Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: let's do this shit indeed 2016-05-14T23:02:21Z eudoxia: thanks, this #content will #engage #millennial audiences and strengthen my #brand 2016-05-14T23:02:28Z phoe_krk: #yolo 2016-05-14T23:03:45Z aeth: #quicklisp and #git help #hackers build large #lisp #apps easily. #not-blub 2016-05-14T23:04:10Z blub: :( 2016-05-14T23:04:16Z phoe_krk: XDDDDDDDD 2016-05-14T23:04:17Z eudoxia: ayy lmao 2016-05-14T23:04:41Z TeMPOraL: <3 <3 <3 2016-05-14T23:05:05Z aeth: rofl 2016-05-14T23:05:06Z phoe_krk: this stuff cures the cancer I got from browsing 4chan when I was young and stupid 2016-05-14T23:05:15Z phoe_krk: and I'm not young anymore 2016-05-14T23:05:46Z aeth: Sorry, blub. At least plenty of big companies still love you. 2016-05-14T23:06:04Z phoe_krk: oka 2016-05-14T23:06:06Z phoe_krk: y 2016-05-14T23:06:11Z phoe_krk: night time for me! see you guys tomorrow. 2016-05-14T23:06:18Z eudoxia: good night 2016-05-14T23:06:24Z TeMPOraL: 'nighty phoe_krk 2016-05-14T23:06:27Z TeMPOraL is tired of writing repetitive code for CLOS slots 2016-05-14T23:06:28Z phoe_krk: eudoxia: if you feel like it, you can link to CLUS from lisp-lang's /spec/ page. 2016-05-14T23:06:37Z eudoxia: ok 2016-05-14T23:06:45Z TeMPOraL: is there a standard library that fixes this, or can I just go ahead and whip up a macro for my personal utility library? :D 2016-05-14T23:06:50Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:06:55Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-14T23:07:17Z phoe_krk: there's some sort of default value for slots 2016-05-14T23:07:22Z phoe_krk: I remember it 2016-05-14T23:07:30Z aeth: TeMPOraL: do you mean with-slots/with-accessors or do you mean the slots stuff in defclass? 2016-05-14T23:07:37Z phoe_krk: but~ Night 2016-05-14T23:07:47Z TeMPOraL: I mean, if most of my slots look like this: (foo :initform nil :initarg :foo :accessor foo) 2016-05-14T23:07:54Z TeMPOraL: I'd prefer not to repeat foo 3 times there 2016-05-14T23:08:16Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: !!! 2016-05-14T23:08:20Z phoe_krk: There is a solution for this. 2016-05-14T23:08:25Z phoe_krk: I just don't remember it. 2016-05-14T23:08:33Z TeMPOraL: 0_o 2016-05-14T23:08:47Z aeth: TeMPOraL: I agree for all of those except for initform. Also, initarg is usually :foo *or* not present, which does complicate things 2016-05-14T23:08:51Z TeMPOraL: yeah, I'd love it if someone did remember, I'm trying to avoid a serious case of NIH / Lisp Curse here 2016-05-14T23:09:22Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: disappear for an hour so the channel forgets and come back ranting that it cannot be done 2016-05-14T23:09:27Z phoe_krk: you'll get your answer in 15 mins :D 2016-05-14T23:09:29Z TeMPOraL: if there's no "standard" solution for this, I may as well write my own ;) 2016-05-14T23:09:38Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: yeah, I know how IRC works xD 2016-05-14T23:09:38Z phoe_krk: TeMPOraL: pls no 2016-05-14T23:09:49Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: my own for personal use :P 2016-05-14T23:10:22Z phoe_krk: pls no anyway 2016-05-14T23:10:27Z phoe_krk: someone else might need to maintain it 2016-05-14T23:10:54Z TeMPOraL: thinking of something like: (defclass! bar () ((:standard-slots foo quux abc) (:read-only-slots cde efg hij) (zzz :initform nil :initarg zzz ... you know the stuff))) 2016-05-14T23:11:09Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: *personal* use for personal unpublished projects :P 2016-05-14T23:11:14Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T23:11:15Z phoe_krk: http://lisptips.com/post/11728375873/initform-and-default-initargs 2016-05-14T23:11:17Z phoe_krk: BOOM 2016-05-14T23:11:21Z phoe_krk: and it's standard I think. 2016-05-14T23:11:24Z TeMPOraL: ths 2016-05-14T23:11:26Z TeMPOraL: thx* 2016-05-14T23:11:47Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:11:47Z phoe_krk: okay, good night take three 2016-05-14T23:11:48Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:12:03Z blub: mostly i don't think you should have initform and initarg on the same slot 2016-05-14T23:12:50Z TeMPOraL: phoe_krk: after reading this - it's something else entirely; I'm just trying to save myself some typing / LOC 2016-05-14T23:12:54Z TeMPOraL: blub: why? 2016-05-14T23:13:27Z blub: that's what default-initargs is for, initform is for when there's only one way that makes sense to initialise something 2016-05-14T23:13:34Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-14T23:13:34Z dormammu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T23:13:40Z TeMPOraL: ok, I didn't know about default-initargs 2016-05-14T23:13:52Z TeMPOraL: I'll read up on that 2016-05-14T23:14:29Z blub: it's especially nice for bigger classes, to have all of the default configuration stuff grouped together at the bottom, instead of spread through the slot definitions 2016-05-14T23:15:47Z TeMPOraL: yeah, that makes sense and I guess I'll be using it from now on 2016-05-14T23:16:44Z dormammu joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:17:05Z TeMPOraL: thx 2016-05-14T23:17:52Z TeMPOraL: still have two lines to cut out though; I guess I'll go ahead and write that (defclass! ...) later 2016-05-14T23:20:45Z xue quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-14T23:25:50Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-14T23:29:41Z aleogen: Hey there! Do any of you fine fellows know of a Racket<->Guile<->Common Lisp kind of "cheatsheet" ? 2016-05-14T23:30:08Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:30:47Z aleogen: (e.g., http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp) 2016-05-14T23:32:25Z Fare: if you're writing one, we can help you fill in the blanks 2016-05-14T23:34:42Z Fare: TeMPOraL, are you writing yet another defclass! ? 2016-05-14T23:34:47Z Mon_Ouie quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-14T23:34:53Z Fare: I have a suggestion: make it functional! 2016-05-14T23:35:36Z TeMPOraL: Fare: only a small utility for myself to save some typing; but for my defense, I've been asking if there's one available and nobody came up with anything 2016-05-14T23:35:40Z TeMPOraL: if you know, please tell :) 2016-05-14T23:35:54Z rgrau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-14T23:36:55Z Fare: so, define a slot-specification type (I fear you might not be able to use what the MOP has) 2016-05-14T23:37:00Z Fare: a class-specification type 2016-05-14T23:37:02Z Fare: etc. 2016-05-14T23:37:11Z aleogen: is there much of a difference between continuations and unwind-protect? 2016-05-14T23:37:38Z Fare: then defclass! can compose mixins that each take a partial spec as input and return a partial spec as output 2016-05-14T23:37:44Z Fare: functionally 2016-05-14T23:38:25Z TeMPOraL: Fare: AMOP is still somewhere between my home and wherever Amazon stores their stuff 2016-05-14T23:38:31Z TeMPOraL: so maybe after it arrives and I find time to read it 2016-05-14T23:38:35Z TeMPOraL: ;) 2016-05-14T23:38:37Z Fare: at the end, the defclass! takes that spec and creates the class 2016-05-14T23:38:53Z Fare: that's a functional, compile-time MOP 2016-05-14T23:40:01Z Fare: aleogen, there are papers on how to implement dynamic-wind (the scheme equivalent of unwind-protect) on top of continuations that don't have it 2016-05-14T23:40:15Z Fare: see also work on partial continuations and continuation marks 2016-05-14T23:40:45Z aleogen: I'll check that out. Thanks Fare :) 2016-05-14T23:41:30Z Fare: the general case of dynamic-wind is harder than unwind-protect, since you can enter and exit the dynamic scope of a partial continuation multiple times 2016-05-14T23:42:43Z Fare: TeMPOraL, also I'm pretty sure the hu.dwim guys have some def class macros. See if they suit you. 2016-05-14T23:44:38Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:44:48Z quazimod1 joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:45:01Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-14T23:46:33Z TeMPOraL: Fare: thanks, I'll take a look 2016-05-14T23:48:53Z zaquest quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-14T23:50:03Z vydd quit 2016-05-14T23:58:45Z mood: TeMPOraL: Also take a look at https://github.com/EuAndreh/defclass-std/ 2016-05-15T00:03:06Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-15T00:03:44Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T00:04:34Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-15T00:04:55Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-15T00:07:01Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-15T00:08:10Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-15T00:13:24Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-15T00:13:46Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-15T00:15:42Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-15T00:21:06Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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To muddle things, I implemented *your* scribble syntax (mostly, adapted to CL) in my pre-existing "scribble" package that implemented that skribe syntax. 2016-05-15T02:37:20Z Fare: so Exscribe can use both syntaxes 2016-05-15T02:38:31Z Fare: then I found it too much of a hassle to convert the many megabytes of documents I have in the old syntax to the new (so far). 2016-05-15T02:39:28Z Fare: eli: how are you doing? 2016-05-15T02:42:24Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-15T02:50:08Z jasom: aleogen: the short answer is that continuations and unwind-protect are very nearly unrelated 2016-05-15T02:51:00Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-15T02:51:26Z marusich quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-15T02:51:55Z aleogen: jasom: that's /an/ answer, yes. 2016-05-15T02:52:02Z aleogen: Thanks for your input 2016-05-15T02:52:13Z jasom: aleogen: if you're doing a racket/guile/common lisp cheatsheet then dynamic-wind and unwind-protect are the closest equivalents 2016-05-15T02:52:52Z jasom: aleogen: I guess the shorter answer would have been "yes" 2016-05-15T02:53:26Z jasom: aleogen: and standard common lisp has no equivalent to call/cc 2016-05-15T02:54:17Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-05-15T02:55:26Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-15T02:57:23Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-15T02:57:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-15T02:58:28Z marusich quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-15T02:59:15Z je4i`` joined #lisp 2016-05-15T02:59:44Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-15T02:59:53Z ekinmur quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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This is on arch linux with ccl. 2016-05-18T09:43:11Z norserob: I can do (sdl2:push-event :quit) just fine. 2016-05-18T09:44:22Z norserob: The user event has no data, only the type keyword :myevent 2016-05-18T09:47:27Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-18T09:55:59Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T09:56:06Z DGASAU` is now known as DGASAU 2016-05-18T09:56:41Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-18T09:56:58Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-18T09:59:27Z schoppenhauer quit (Quit: Adé) 2016-05-18T10:03:43Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:05:10Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:05:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T10:08:21Z igam: norserob: I don't know anything about sdl2, but do you register it at compilation time, before saving the image, and get the macptr error after loading the image? foreign pointers are not preserved across image saving and loading. 2016-05-18T10:08:33Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T10:10:38Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T10:11:35Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:17:20Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T10:18:39Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:21:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T10:21:40Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:25:17Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:27:58Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:28:34Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:28:39Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:29:33Z norserob: igam: No, I register it when starting my program. Guess I should make a small test program so it is easier to identify the problem. 2016-05-18T10:30:44Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:33:24Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T10:34:06Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-18T10:37:02Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T10:39:05Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:40:44Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-05-18T10:42:18Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T10:42:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:44:19Z norserob: igam: Found that it works when run from emacs/slime, but not as an application (made it with buildapp). 2016-05-18T10:46:33Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T10:54:35Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-18T10:54:36Z cmatei quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T10:58:30Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-18T10:58:51Z cmatei joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:14:09Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:16:42Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:18:01Z splittist joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:19:51Z mrcom quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-18T11:21:22Z defun quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:21:24Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-18T11:23:24Z defun joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:26:18Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-18T11:28:59Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:29:08Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:33:55Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:35:35Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:41:50Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:45:52Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:49:42Z isoraqathedh_ is now known as isoraqathedh 2016-05-18T11:52:19Z defun: a question please on emacs lisp 2016-05-18T11:53:15Z phoe_work: #emacs might be of more help - but ask it! 2016-05-18T11:53:26Z defun: given; (setq whole '(group1 group2(element1 element2(suba subb subc) element3) group3)) 2016-05-18T11:53:40Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:53:55Z defun: i would to know if some atom (list) is member of whole 2016-05-18T11:54:31Z defun: so if i eval; (member 'group2 whole) there's no problem 2016-05-18T11:55:13Z defun: But, if would to know if a sub-list member belongs to...; 2016-05-18T11:55:22Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:55:37Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T11:55:37Z defun: ie; (member 'element whole) 2016-05-18T11:55:53Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-18T11:56:17Z defun: the answer is nil., instead of element2(suba subb subc) 2016-05-18T11:57:56Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:58:09Z defun: how can evaluate membership of an atom list inside a list inside a list... ? 2016-05-18T11:58:21Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:58:27Z varjag: " element2(suba subb subc)" 2016-05-18T11:58:31Z varjag: what do you mean by this 2016-05-18T11:58:38Z varjag: this is not a list 2016-05-18T11:59:19Z defun: no? 2016-05-18T11:59:35Z varjag: (element2 (suba subb subc)) would be a list 2016-05-18T11:59:42Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-18T11:59:51Z varjag: composed from atom element2 and the list of 3 elements 2016-05-18T12:00:00Z defun: :varjag true, i miss spacing 2016-05-18T12:00:00Z varjag: 3 other atoms 2016-05-18T12:00:12Z peey quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-18T12:00:15Z defun: yes 2016-05-18T12:00:22Z defun: you right 2016-05-18T12:02:34Z varjag: member doesn't descend down the tree structure, it just finds matches within a list 2016-05-18T12:02:59Z defun: ok varjag, there's no way to desecend so? 2016-05-18T12:05:01Z varjag: you'll probably need to write a function that does the tree-walking 2016-05-18T12:05:17Z varjag: although elisp might have one already am not sure 2016-05-18T12:06:07Z defun: thank you varjag 2016-05-18T12:09:32Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-18T12:10:43Z varjag: defun: http://paste.lisp.org/+6S2A 2016-05-18T12:10:47Z varjag: something along those lines 2016-05-18T12:12:03Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:12:12Z quazimod1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:12:23Z defun: varjag: Thank yout Varjag, fit exactly i what need! 2016-05-18T12:14:04Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T12:15:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:16:46Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:17:09Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:23:12Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:24:00Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:25:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:29:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:33:02Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T12:35:45Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:36:24Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:38:21Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:39:42Z grindhold quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-18T12:40:59Z grindhold joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:41:15Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:42:37Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:45:31Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:46:50Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:47:55Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:53:36Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:54:09Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:56:13Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T12:57:24Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T12:58:53Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-18T12:59:38Z john-mca` is now known as john-mcaleely 2016-05-18T13:00:56Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:01:40Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T13:02:44Z igam: norserob: this confirms what I'm saying. The problem you have is in the "when starting my program" thing. A lisp program doesn't really have a start, since you always launch an image that has been previously saved. Compiling and loading a program just mutates this image. Then you save this image, for later being able to relaunch it. 2016-05-18T13:03:45Z Xach: Or you make it easy to restore your work to an unmodified image. 2016-05-18T13:04:11Z phoe_work: ^ 2016-05-18T13:04:26Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:04:28Z Xach: working with system definitions can help with that. 2016-05-18T13:06:17Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T13:06:32Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T13:06:39Z igam: norserob: what you want to do is to allocate those foreign obejcts *when the image is launched*. You can do that at various places: in a main function called in the new image (eg. as replacement of the REPL toplevel), or in the case of ccl, one of several hooks; cf. eg. ccl::*lisp-startup-functions* in http://ccl.clozure.com/docs/ccl.html 2016-05-18T13:07:08Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:08:10Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:09:06Z jdz: wouldn't LOAD-TIME-VALUE also work? 2016-05-18T13:09:10Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:09:11Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:10:43Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:11:03Z jdz: probably not applicable here, nvm 2016-05-18T13:11:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:12:25Z igam: jdz: no, load-time-value is when you load the .fasl; not when you load an image. 2016-05-18T13:12:50Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:13:50Z jdz: not according to the spec 2016-05-18T13:14:07Z jdz: «load-time-value provides a mechanism for delaying evaluation of form until the expression is in the run-time environment» 2016-05-18T13:15:24Z igam: read further. 2016-05-18T13:15:58Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T13:16:52Z igam: Notably, in the case of eval, which covers load .lisp (this is a REL): "Implementations that implicitly compile (or partially compile) expressions processed by eval might evaluate form only once, at the time this compilation is performed." ==> it may be evaluated multiple times! 2016-05-18T13:17:38Z igam: (defvar *foo* 1) (loop repeat 10 collect (eval '(load-time-value (incf *foo*)))) #| --> (2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11) or (2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2) 2016-05-18T13:17:42Z igam: |# 2016-05-18T13:18:00Z jdz: why bring EVAL to the discussion? 2016-05-18T13:18:18Z igam: jdz: because this is where run-time occurs, as you were thinking originally. 2016-05-18T13:18:50Z igam: But the behavior of load-time-value with eval is only specified for (load "foo.lisp") (and direct call to eval too, but this is useless). 2016-05-18T13:22:35Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:24:50Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:27:04Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:27:31Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:28:03Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:29:27Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-18T13:30:24Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:30:34Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:36:22Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:37:07Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:40:57Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T13:41:25Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:41:54Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:42:25Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:44:42Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:45:21Z aluminumtubes joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:45:25Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T13:46:49Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:48:08Z zaquest quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T13:48:22Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:49:07Z zaquest joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:49:19Z cantstanya quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:51:28Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:51:32Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:52:15Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:55:58Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:57:07Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:57:52Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T13:58:20Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T13:58:21Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-18T13:59:00Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T13:59:33Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:00:17Z defun quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:02:04Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:02:35Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T14:03:19Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:03:50Z ferada_ is now known as ferada 2016-05-18T14:04:57Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:04:59Z vydd quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-18T14:05:53Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T14:06:32Z moore_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:07:24Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:08:07Z gdmalet joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:08:30Z gdmalet is now known as Guest66845 2016-05-18T14:14:02Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:14:16Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:17:23Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:19:01Z Guest66845 is now known as gdmalet_ 2016-05-18T14:22:51Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:23:27Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:27:14Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:27:26Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:29:15Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:29:44Z Munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T14:30:38Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:31:01Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:32:45Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:32:57Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:32:58Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T14:33:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:34:31Z faheem joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:36:53Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:37:15Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:39:13Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-18T14:41:33Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:48:17Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:48:20Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:48:20Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-18T14:48:39Z emlow quit (Quit: emlow) 2016-05-18T14:48:49Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:48:51Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:49:19Z rabid joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:50:18Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:50:30Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:50:43Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2016-05-18T14:51:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:53:03Z rabid quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-18T14:54:08Z jackdaniel: o/ 2016-05-18T14:54:15Z DrCode quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T14:55:09Z jackdaniel: I have first EclAndroid user \o/ dto ports xelf for the android platform 2016-05-18T14:55:23Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:55:26Z beach: Congratulations! 2016-05-18T14:56:06Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:56:30Z zalatovo_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:58:15Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:58:27Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:58:36Z leo_song quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T14:59:50Z yhjhg joined #lisp 2016-05-18T14:59:50Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T14:59:57Z yhjhg is now known as defun 2016-05-18T15:00:20Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:00:33Z leo_song joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:02:37Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:02:52Z joshe joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:07:24Z NeverDie quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T15:09:00Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:12:13Z DrCode joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:12:54Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:13:54Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:18:25Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:21:44Z dwchandler: Nice! 2016-05-18T15:23:04Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:26:33Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:28:29Z cmatei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T15:28:35Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:29:13Z didi: Can I use `eql' to test equality for two strings? I want to build a hash-table which has strings as keys. 2016-05-18T15:29:31Z cmatei joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:29:43Z beach: didi: The result would very likely not be what you want. 2016-05-18T15:29:51Z didi: Bleh. 2016-05-18T15:30:03Z beach: Why do you insist on using EQL? 2016-05-18T15:30:12Z didi: beach: I don't. 2016-05-18T15:30:13Z beach: It is best to use a test that works for strings. 2016-05-18T15:30:26Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T15:30:39Z didi: beach: But hash-tables only accept {eq, eql, equal}, right? 2016-05-18T15:30:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:31:13Z beach: And you can compare strings with EQUAL. 2016-05-18T15:31:22Z didi: Cool. Thank you, beach. 2016-05-18T15:31:23Z beach: clhs equal 2016-05-18T15:31:23Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 2016-05-18T15:31:33Z beach: Look under "Arrays". 2016-05-18T15:31:38Z maucar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-18T15:31:38Z didi: Will do. 2016-05-18T15:31:55Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:31:57Z didi: Nice. 2016-05-18T15:32:02Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-18T15:32:11Z beach: Also, hash tables can use EQUALP as well in case you need that some day. 2016-05-18T15:32:27Z didi: Ah, I didn't know. Good to... know. 2016-05-18T15:32:32Z didi: :-) 2016-05-18T15:32:40Z beach: clhs make-hash-table 2016-05-18T15:32:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 2016-05-18T15:32:45Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:32:49Z beach: It is really good to read the Common Lisp HyperSpec sometime. 2016-05-18T15:32:56Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:33:03Z didi: Sure. 2016-05-18T15:33:34Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:34:23Z |2701 quit (Changing host) 2016-05-18T15:34:23Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:34:23Z |2701 quit (Changing host) 2016-05-18T15:34:23Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:34:53Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:35:28Z jackdaniel: didi: also if you'll want really some custom test functions, there is genhash (generic hash tables) 2016-05-18T15:36:06Z didi: jackdaniel: Nice. Hash tables are extendable. Thank you. 2016-05-18T15:36:33Z jackdaniel: mind, that using strings as keys won't be as efficient as using keywords for instance 2016-05-18T15:37:27Z didi: jackdaniel: Oh well. I will keep that in mind. I don't think it will be an issue but we will see. 2016-05-18T15:38:24Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:40:05Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:42:26Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:42:54Z phoe_krk: didi: string= 2016-05-18T15:43:11Z phoe_krk: which also checks type. 2016-05-18T15:43:17Z phoe_krk: clhs string= 2016-05-18T15:43:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm 2016-05-18T15:43:57Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: it won't work with the ordinary hash tables 2016-05-18T15:44:23Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: oh, hashtable! I see. 2016-05-18T15:44:40Z phoe_krk: Then either EQUAL or a custom hashtable that accepts other equality functions. 2016-05-18T15:44:46Z phoe_krk: But I'd go for EQUAL. 2016-05-18T15:45:30Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:45:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-18T15:46:35Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-18T15:47:15Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T15:49:20Z aluminumtubes quit (Quit: aluminumtubes) 2016-05-18T15:50:27Z burtons quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I used it in a game. 2016-05-18T17:04:23Z akkad: oh? I run into consistency issues with more than one thread writing to it 2016-05-18T17:05:14Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-18T17:06:50Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T17:06:55Z achernyak quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-18T17:08:49Z papachan quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-18T17:09:03Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T17:10:54Z xue_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T17:11:18Z dlowe: I used it in a single-threaded game :p 2016-05-18T17:11:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T17:15:54Z akkad: k. bt + cl-store it is. thanks 2016-05-18T17:16:10Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-18T17:20:49Z dlowe: I've used postgres and postmodern too 2016-05-18T17:20:55Z dlowe: but not for low-latency storage, obviously 2016-05-18T17:21:42Z fe[nl]ix: you rarely need low-latency storage 2016-05-18T17:24:25Z akkad: if you want something like cl-store, but need to do incremental writes of a large queue, so as to not keep it all in memory, are there any options? 2016-05-18T17:25:09Z dlowe: well, instead of having an in-memory representation that was translated to a store, the game actually just used the rucksack db as the only storage 2016-05-18T17:25:22Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T17:25:25Z dlowe: so using that strategy, it had to be pretty low latency 2016-05-18T17:26:02Z dlowe: akkad: if you want incremental writes, couldn't you just use cl-store to append to a file? 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Does anyone have a trick to LOOP with multiple return values? 2016-05-18T19:03:51Z _death: clhs multiple-value-list 2016-05-18T19:03:51Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_mult_1.htm 2016-05-18T19:04:30Z mrottenkolber: Good point but that would cons too much for my taste. 2016-05-18T19:04:37Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:04:44Z _death: so don't use loop 2016-05-18T19:04:48Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:05:25Z phoe_krk: mrottenkolber: BIND might be what you want. 2016-05-18T19:05:37Z phoe_krk: It's a wrapper around MULTIPLE-VALUE-BIND. 2016-05-18T19:05:52Z phoe_krk: Or, uh, wait. I think ITERATE supports (values ...) 2016-05-18T19:08:30Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T19:12:04Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T19:13:07Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-18T19:15:28Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-18T19:18:39Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:21:28Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:21:44Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:23:33Z foom2 is now known as foom 2016-05-18T19:24:22Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T19:25:41Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:27:52Z yaewa quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-18T19:28:01Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-18T19:28:10Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:28:33Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:29:01Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:31:00Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-18T19:32:53Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T19:32:54Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T19:33:27Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:35:04Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:35:11Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:35:48Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:41:09Z mrottenkolber: I ended up with this: (loop with v with p do (multiple-value-bind (value present-p) ... (setf v value p present-p) when p collect v) 2016-05-18T19:41:30Z dlowe: mrottenkolber: there's multiple-value-setq to the rescue 2016-05-18T19:41:41Z mrottenkolber: oh 2016-05-18T19:41:42Z mrottenkolber: nice 2016-05-18T19:42:31Z Josh2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T19:42:59Z prxq: mrottenkolber: incredibly, this also works: (setf (values a b) (values 1 2)) 2016-05-18T19:43:24Z mrottenkolber: even nicer 2016-05-18T19:43:50Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:43:56Z prxq: yes, that's really cool :) 2016-05-18T19:44:41Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:46:20Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:48:50Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T19:49:00Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:49:32Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:50:49Z mrottenkolber: (defun %any (parser) 2016-05-18T19:50:52Z mrottenkolber: (lambda (input) 2016-05-18T19:50:52Z mrottenkolber: (let (rest value present-p) 2016-05-18T19:50:52Z mrottenkolber: (loop do (setf (values rest value present-p) (funcall parser input)) 2016-05-18T19:50:52Z mrottenkolber: if rest do (setf input rest) 2016-05-18T19:50:52Z mrottenkolber: else return (values input list) 2016-05-18T19:50:53Z mrottenkolber: when present-p collect value into list)))) 2016-05-18T19:51:38Z Bike: don't paste more than a line or two into the channel, please. 2016-05-18T19:51:47Z mrottenkolber: Sorry! 2016-05-18T19:51:58Z Bike: also, i think implementations could probably special case the multiple-value-list thing to avoid consing, i'm going to try that in a minute. 2016-05-18T19:52:28Z mrottenkolber: Bike: that would be cool! 2016-05-18T19:53:20Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-18T19:56:46Z _vaitel is now known as vaitel 2016-05-18T19:57:30Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T19:57:49Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-18T19:59:39Z vlatkoB quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T20:00:11Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:02:46Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:05:02Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T20:06:33Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T20:09:29Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:14:19Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:19:50Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:19:56Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:24:27Z Josh2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T20:24:45Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:26:21Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:27:15Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:28:12Z pepton2 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:29:32Z Odin- joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:29:32Z Bike: man, xerox loop is a pit 2016-05-18T20:30:20Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:33:53Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:39:49Z jerme quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-18T20:40:19Z fourier quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T20:40:57Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:41:43Z killmaster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:42:40Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:44:24Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T20:47:03Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:48:19Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T20:49:03Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:50:33Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:54:39Z maucar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-18T20:55:22Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:55:40Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-18T20:56:18Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:58:33Z s00pcan_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-18T20:58:42Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T21:00:24Z phoe_krk: I think it's good and polished enough, so let me make a tiny announcement. 2016-05-18T21:00:47Z phoe_krk: https://cloud.openmailbox.org/index.php/s/Uog6nh9Tea5SBMH <- this short PDF report contains my remarks about the 9th European Lisp Symposium. 2016-05-18T21:01:51Z warweasle quit (Quit: Harsh Realm) 2016-05-18T21:02:42Z Jonsky quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T21:05:52Z gdmalet_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T21:05:57Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-18T21:06:42Z moore33: phoe_krk: Thanks! 2016-05-18T21:07:07Z phoe_krk: moore33: Don't thank me yet. 2016-05-18T21:07:18Z phoe_krk: I still haven't published the interviews. ;_; 2016-05-18T21:08:32Z aluminumtubes quit (Quit: aluminumtubes) 2016-05-18T21:10:34Z moore33: phoe_krk: Thanks for your write-up, which I have just read. 2016-05-18T21:10:48Z phoe_krk: moore33: :D 2016-05-18T21:11:04Z phoe_krk: ...thanks for the write-up and shame on me for the delays, huh? ;_; 2016-05-18T21:11:09Z phoe_krk: I'll upload them when I go home. 2016-05-18T21:11:17Z moore33: phoe_krk: I recently had lunch with beach, who told me about your musical exploits :) 2016-05-18T21:11:52Z phoe_krk: omg. xD 2016-05-18T21:14:06Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:14:09Z Josh2: That just popped up on Twatter 2016-05-18T21:14:39Z Jonsky joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:15:01Z phoe_krk: Josh2: !? 2016-05-18T21:16:16Z Orion3k quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T21:16:52Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:16:56Z Orion3k quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-18T21:17:15Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T21:17:51Z Orion3k joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:18:03Z peey quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-18T21:18:19Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:19:41Z Josh2: There is a Twitter bot that reposts everything from the Lisp subreddits 2016-05-18T21:20:23Z phoe_krk: Oh. I didn't know that. Where does it reside? 2016-05-18T21:22:03Z Josh2: @reddit_lisp 2016-05-18T21:26:25Z rumbler31 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-18T21:26:39Z brfennpocock quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T21:27:04Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:29:23Z Posterdati: mordocai: I fixed the problem 2016-05-18T21:33:16Z mordocai: Posterdati: Ah cool. What'd you end up doing? 2016-05-18T21:33:26Z mordocai: Posterdati: I was at a meetup last night so didn't get a chance to look at it 2016-05-18T21:33:43Z Josh2: Maybe I will go to the symposium next year :P *Just do it* 2016-05-18T21:34:01Z phoe_krk: xD 2016-05-18T21:34:03Z mordocai: Josh2: If you can, you should. I can't realistically, and it makes me sad :) 2016-05-18T21:34:41Z Josh2: Well as long as I find out where the event is early enough I can book flights pretty cheap 2016-05-18T21:35:06Z Josh2: And AirBnB can be super cheap as well 2016-05-18T21:35:38Z mordocai: Yeah, my main problem is I don't have enough vacation for it and a real vacation. So i'd have to bring my whole family which is pretty much always expensive. 2016-05-18T21:35:48Z phoe_krk: Josh2: the plans are for hosting it in Brussels. 2016-05-18T21:36:11Z Josh2: Well that could be fun 2016-05-18T21:36:32Z Posterdati: mordocai: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316337 2016-05-18T21:37:43Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-18T21:38:20Z mordocai: Posterdati: Ah I see, so EOF was the issue I guess? 2016-05-18T21:38:31Z Posterdati: yes 2016-05-18T21:38:59Z mordocai: Good to know! Thanks for sharing, I may end up doing some common lisp hacker ranks and now I don't have to figure that out myself :) 2016-05-18T21:39:12Z Josh2: It will be around 45 pound flights. That's pretty cheap :D and I don't have a whole family to take with me haha 2016-05-18T21:39:29Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T21:39:39Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:40:14Z mordocai: phoe_krk: This totally is not a critique of your writing, but most developers would consider a conference which brings around 60-70 attendees pretty close to extinct :). 2016-05-18T21:40:34Z mordocai: Not actually extinct though, obviously 2016-05-18T21:41:32Z Josh2: 60-70 is a good number imo, it makes it more personal than 100's of people squinting to see a power point presentation xD 2016-05-18T21:41:42Z phoe_krk: mordocai: I say that a conference of about 4-5 people is extinction. 2016-05-18T21:41:48Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-18T21:41:52Z phoe_krk: Exactly what Josh said. 2016-05-18T21:42:19Z phoe_krk: If I were interested in mass media, I'd go do some Java. 2016-05-18T21:42:55Z dwchandler: I've been to conferences with about that number of people. It's fine. 2016-05-18T21:42:58Z mordocai: Oh yeah, I'm not saying it is -bad-. Just that the average developer (at least in the US) might very well call that extinct. 2016-05-18T21:43:55Z dwchandler: The average developer would call common lisp extinct anyway, so it's not worth worrying about ;-) 2016-05-18T21:44:29Z Josh2: well screw those guise 2016-05-18T21:44:36Z phoe_krk: The languages that are "alive" could finally get a good and working REPL. Fifty years after the idea emerged Java still fails to surpass the supposedly "extinct" languages. 2016-05-18T21:44:36Z mordocai: dwchandler: Agreed. I just found the statement interesting 2016-05-18T21:44:37Z ghsk quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-18T21:44:38Z Josh2: There is fresh blood joining all the time 2016-05-18T21:44:39Z Josh2: maybe 2016-05-18T21:44:49Z mordocai: Josh2: I'm relatively fresh blood 2016-05-18T21:44:54Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-18T21:44:54Z phoe_krk: Josh2: me too 2016-05-18T21:44:59Z dwchandler: mordocai: yeah 2016-05-18T21:45:00Z phoe_krk: Anyway - AFK 2016-05-18T21:45:01Z Josh2: Well there we go :D 2016-05-18T21:45:10Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T21:45:31Z dwchandler: If the numbers are shrinking dramatically year to year then there's a problem 2016-05-18T21:46:00Z Josh2: Yeah, then we need to start a TV commercial 2016-05-18T21:46:06Z Josh2: 100% best idea ever. 2016-05-18T21:46:42Z dwchandler: I'm relatively fresh blood too 2016-05-18T21:47:42Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T21:50:05Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T21:54:49Z mordocai: phoe_krk: Good writeup, I enjoyed reading it. Looking forward to the interviews 2016-05-18T21:56:27Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:56:35Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-18T21:57:04Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T21:57:08Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-18T21:58:09Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:02:36Z foom joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:03:59Z aluminumtubes joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:04:59Z phoe_krk: mordocai: <3 thanks! 2016-05-18T22:08:26Z aluminumtubes quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-18T22:10:18Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:11:19Z rm34D` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:11:22Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:12:48Z jasom: churn would be almost as bad as shrinking (if devs consistently leave after e.g. 5 years of lisp, that would be a bad sign, for example), but I don't think that's happening too much either. 2016-05-18T22:14:45Z rm34D quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:15:07Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T22:15:48Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:18:00Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:19:04Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:19:18Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:19:21Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:20:17Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:20:57Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T22:22:03Z killmaster joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:22:26Z fourier: Josh2: I'm also a fresh blood (being around cl from 2009). not all of us are bearded oldtimers 2016-05-18T22:22:43Z phoe_krk: ...fresh blood? 2016-05-18T22:22:51Z phoe_krk: I found out about Common Lisp in 2015 ;___; 2016-05-18T22:23:02Z fourier: phoe_krk: in terms of Lisp of course :) 2016-05-18T22:23:02Z mordocai is a bearded youngtimer. 2016-05-18T22:23:09Z phoe_krk: and I have a beard. 2016-05-18T22:23:22Z mordocai: fourier: If you count as fresh blood, then I am firmly fresh blood :) 2016-05-18T22:23:32Z fourier: phoe_krk: I know. one step to oldtimers :) 2016-05-18T22:23:59Z mordocai: I think I first got interested in lisp around 2013 maybe? And only in the last few months have I tried to do anything real with it 2016-05-18T22:24:00Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:24:27Z fourier: mordocai: aah, but there is always the emacs lisp 2016-05-18T22:25:10Z Josh2: I'm fresher blood than that :P phoe_krk has been teaching me in CLnoobs for a long time xD 2016-05-18T22:25:25Z phoe_krk: Josh2: have I? o-o 2016-05-18T22:25:43Z mordocai: fourier: Yeah, did emacs/emacs lisp starting in 2013 to now. Ooh, I can actually confirm my theory. let's see... my first commit of common lisp code was one week in november 2013 and then my next was a few months ago. 2016-05-18T22:26:16Z fourier: nowadays all that counts is before/after Quicklisp :) 2016-05-18T22:26:31Z mordocai: Ah yeah, definitely post quicklisp here 2016-05-18T22:26:57Z varjag: heh 2016-05-18T22:27:25Z varjag: my mental divide is before/after sbcl 2016-05-18T22:27:50Z phoe_krk: my mental divide is before/after CLUS 2016-05-18T22:28:06Z phoe_krk: and I have so many stuff that I hope will happen the moment CLUS's first stage is finished 2016-05-18T22:28:11Z phoe_krk: and it's all in my head ;-; 2016-05-18T22:29:04Z fourier: before quicklist it was just a pain.. after ql CL became a modern language with a command-away widely accessible frameworks 2016-05-18T22:29:18Z Josh2: My name was Jake1 lel 2016-05-18T22:29:29Z mordocai: Ah was confused by acronym. CLUS is common lisp ultraspec 2016-05-18T22:30:01Z fourier: phoe_krk: almost had to google for CLUS, but remembered your presentation 2016-05-18T22:30:03Z phoe_krk: fourier: I don't remember the times before quicklisp 2016-05-18T22:30:04Z fourier: :) 2016-05-18T22:30:06Z phoe_krk: :P 2016-05-18T22:30:26Z Subfusc: Josh2: who are you kidding? Your name is always going to be Yoshi 2016-05-18T22:31:02Z Josh2: O sorry, my name is Yoshi xD 2016-05-18T22:31:03Z fourier: phoe_krk: lucky you. it was asdf around and complicated ways to get other guys stuff to work with yours. Some hours of plain pain 2016-05-18T22:31:12Z jasom remembers when asdf-install was introduced, does that make him an oldtimer? 2016-05-18T22:31:49Z phoe_krk: Josh2: is your next iteration going to be John3? 2016-05-18T22:32:34Z fourier: jasom: for sure, asdf-install is like a gopher nowadays. doing the same but in a wrong way :) 2016-05-18T22:33:33Z Josh2: Nah Josh is my real name :P Josh1 is my desktop Josh2 is my laptop 2016-05-18T22:33:48Z varjag remembers sending a patch to mk-defsystem 2016-05-18T22:34:27Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:35:00Z sondr3: weird question, I enjoy watching videos of people programming, does anyone have any recommendations for lisp? 2016-05-18T22:35:24Z varjag: youtube has a few 2016-05-18T22:35:28Z fourier: sondr3: basically every lisp video 2016-05-18T22:35:29Z Josh2: I remember seeing someone stream lisp programming 2016-05-18T22:35:34Z varjag: i liked the opengl ones 2016-05-18T22:35:34Z Josh2: on Twitch 2016-05-18T22:35:44Z fourier: sondr3: dsl-in-lisp for instance 2016-05-18T22:36:32Z fourier: sondr3: and Marco Baringer's SLIME Tutorial Video 2016-05-18T22:37:29Z sondr3: sweet, thanks, I'll look into them 2016-05-18T22:38:17Z fourier: sondr3: they are on youtube I believe 2016-05-18T22:39:20Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:41:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:41:49Z jasom: sondr3: search for "livecoding lisp" to find a few on youtube 2016-05-18T22:42:31Z sondr3: I remember I stumbled across some dude on Twitch who did some really heavy math in Common Lisp, was fun but I understood nothing, haha 2016-05-18T22:43:18Z codesine joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:43:24Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:43:49Z angavrilov_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T22:43:52Z Josh2 can't do math, let alone in Lisp 2016-05-18T22:44:08Z fourier can do math but not in lisp 2016-05-18T22:44:10Z varjag: math is hard, let's go coding 2016-05-18T22:44:33Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:44:51Z codesine quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-18T22:47:03Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:47:15Z phoe_krk: Lisp is actually fairly well suited for math 2016-05-18T22:47:25Z phoe_krk: native automatic complex numbers yahoo! 2016-05-18T22:47:26Z Josh2 is not suited for math 2016-05-18T22:47:46Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:48:04Z sondr3: I'm still a newbie with programming, and I first stumbled upon lisp when I was 13 or something, the notation for math completely threw me off 2016-05-18T22:48:12Z varjag: don't do much complex domain but i like the rationals 2016-05-18T22:49:01Z fourier: phoe_krk: in math you do 1 + 2 × 3, not (+ 1 (* 2 3)) :) 2016-05-18T22:49:59Z pepton3 joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:51:00Z phoe_krk: fourier: in math you actually apply functions to arguments, in which case infix notation is terribly inefficient 2016-05-18T22:51:38Z phoe_krk: +(1, *(2, 3)) is a much more extensible notation 2016-05-18T22:51:58Z phoe_krk: that actually scales upwards, like, when you want to leave the six basic arithmetic operators of +-*/^% 2016-05-18T22:52:01Z Bike: this is why i only do mathematics encoded as products of prime powers 2016-05-18T22:52:14Z phoe_krk: Bike: wat 2016-05-18T22:52:24Z sondr3: wat 2016-05-18T22:52:32Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:52:50Z Bike: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del_numbering it's way more interesting than talking about where to put plus signs 2016-05-18T22:53:10Z pepton2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-18T22:53:32Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:55:11Z phoe_krk: Ahuh. That's a very cool proof. 2016-05-18T22:56:25Z fourier: phoe_krk: it is too complex for me. I want 1 + 2 in math and not (+ 1 2). If I need more, there is always another notation for this, like math's Sum or APL's +/ (reduce over plus) 2016-05-18T22:57:18Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-18T22:57:19Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-18T22:57:30Z phoe_krk: fourier: I see. I have a way of explaining this to people though. 2016-05-18T22:58:28Z jasom: + and * have never caused issues for me; < > - and / occasionally have as they are not commutative 2016-05-18T22:58:51Z phoe_krk: 1) You have numbers. 2) You have a black box where you put things in one way and other things pop out the other way. That black box is called a function. 3) "Applying the function to the arguments" is essentially putting the numbers into the box and seeing what comes out. 2016-05-18T22:59:35Z fourier: phoe_krk: in math(at least in arithmetics) where is (almost) always a definition of arity of the function. lisp's + etc as well as notation doesn't follow this rule. But we are not reinventing a math (which is fairly conservative thing), but using it to communicate with other mathematicians, and to have a common ground we have to use the same notation. It is what it is. Math is about communication and every new semantics/notation takes 2016-05-18T22:59:35Z fourier: enormous amounts of years to be settled as a mean of communication. 2016-05-18T23:00:01Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-18T23:00:07Z Bike: mathematicians suck at communicating in code 2016-05-18T23:00:50Z dwchandler: except in ML languages ;-) 2016-05-18T23:00:50Z phoe_krk: fourier: in high mathematics you don't use + or *, you use either global sum or global multiplication. 2016-05-18T23:01:03Z phoe_krk: In cases where it matters. 2016-05-18T23:01:08Z phoe_krk: :P 2016-05-18T23:01:10Z phoe_krk: Night~ 2016-05-18T23:01:31Z fourier: For example in tensor calculus the notation is still not settled yet, and it is around 100 years passed since the tensors started to be in use! 2016-05-18T23:02:04Z Bike: dwchandler: does anybody actually like https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/2/2/722b264a52ed8e872654740a532141a4.png syntax, because that's hard for me to believe 2016-05-18T23:02:45Z Bike: einstein notation doesn't work in any programming language i'm aware of. maybe a specialized one 2016-05-18T23:02:54Z dwchandler: Looks a bit dense to me 2016-05-18T23:03:20Z Rptx joined #lisp 2016-05-18T23:04:14Z dwchandler: But for more typical mathy functions, ML looks a lot like what a mathematician would write on paper with a pencil 2016-05-18T23:04:28Z dwchandler: but whatever 2016-05-18T23:04:39Z dwchandler: programming is its own thing 2016-05-18T23:04:56Z Bike: the let/in thing is kind of nice. beats variable declarations, anyway. 2016-05-18T23:05:38Z fourier: Bike: are talking about summation? it is in wide use and more/less standard in maths, but hard to represent in programming languages I guess... 2016-05-18T23:05:38Z dwchandler: That, and piecewise functions, etc. 2016-05-18T23:06:29Z dwchandler: but I love (+ 1 2 3 4), even though that's not how mathy people do it 2016-05-18T23:07:30Z Bike: i just don't get the argument that lisp math notation much matters, since (a) who cares, mathematicians make up ridiculous syntax constantly anyway, and (b) no programming language has all the notation mathers use 2016-05-18T23:08:10Z fourier: Bike: it is not for you but for phoe_krk initially :) 2016-05-18T23:09:42Z Bike: well, i guess i don't really think lisp is more "suited" either. having branch cuts done for me seems nice but it's not like i actually do much complex analysis 2016-05-18T23:10:08Z pillton: Branch cuts? 2016-05-18T23:10:30Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-18T23:11:03Z pepton3 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-18T23:11:10Z fourier: actually there is a huge paper by Ken Iverson (inventor of APL) why notation matters, it is called "Notation as a tool of thought". So for me personally elegance of APL is great, like the example dwchandler expressed above would be considered as a combination of dyadic + function and reduce (/) operator in APL: +/1 2 3 4, or, introducing the iota function (producing range of numbers, it is actually present in Alexandria): +/⍳4 2016-05-18T23:11:12Z Bike: clhs 12.1.5.4 2016-05-18T23:11:12Z specbot: Principal Values and Branch Cuts: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aed.htm 2016-05-18T23:11:58Z Bike: it's not mentioned on this page, but the handling is based on APL's, and later it became an IEEE standard nobody implements. 2016-05-18T23:12:35Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-18T23:12:46Z Bike: oh, it does mention APL. good enough 2016-05-18T23:13:11Z fourier: but CL is a powerefull engineering language, and engineering doesn't care about notations etc, it is just provides a way to solve particular problems :) 2016-05-18T23:13:49Z Bike: my classes would be easier if that was true 2016-05-18T23:14:34Z 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2016-05-19T02:02:26Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T02:03:03Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T02:03:30Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:04:31Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:06:03Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T02:06:29Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:14:08Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:14:14Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-19T02:16:34Z aeth: Bonjour 2016-05-19T02:23:25Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:26:01Z akkad: re 2016-05-19T02:30:12Z joneshf-laptop joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:31:53Z drmeister: beach: Hello 2016-05-19T02:32:15Z drmeister: I just sent you an email - the change I suggested appears to work. 2016-05-19T02:33:07Z beach: OK. I don't have it yet. What change is that? 2016-05-19T02:33:52Z drmeister: There appears to be a typo in convert-special for 'the 2016-05-19T02:34:20Z drmeister: (db origin (the value-type subform) (rest form) ...) should read: (db origin (the value-type subform) form ...) 2016-05-19T02:34:32Z beach: Thanks. I'll fix it. 2016-05-19T02:35:24Z drmeister: I also hacked lambda-list.lisp to add support for the lambda-list keyword core:&va-rest - it works fine. But I decided to fork Sicl so that I could distribute it. 2016-05-19T02:35:54Z drmeister: Now I have the problem of keeping things up to date with your changes. 2016-05-19T02:35:55Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T02:37:54Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T02:38:24Z beach: That's right. 2016-05-19T02:38:27Z loke: Hello drmeister! 2016-05-19T02:38:43Z loke: Seems like your talk as ELS was the most popular one. Is there a video of it? 2016-05-19T02:38:45Z drmeister: When you develop an API for adding lambda-list keywords I'll switch back to your repo. git submodules are nasty. 2016-05-19T02:39:01Z drmeister: loke: I don't know. I didn't have a microphone on me - I hope it got recorded. 2016-05-19T02:39:15Z drmeister: loke: Clasp compiles on Arch. 2016-05-19T02:40:00Z drmeister: But you need to use externals-clasp because - what do you know - I have to use a patched version of llvm 3. 2016-05-19T02:40:00Z loke: drmeister: woah! Any special steps needed t be taken? 2016-05-19T02:40:52Z drmeister: So it's a matter of building externals-clasp/dev38 branch and clasp/dev38 branch at the moment. 2016-05-19T02:40:59Z drmeister: Life is never easy. 2016-05-19T02:41:04Z drmeister: Not with llvm in the mix. 2016-05-19T02:41:19Z loke: drmeister: Cool. I will try that. 2016-05-19T02:42:07Z loke: drmeister: How do I download/switch to a different branch in git? 2016-05-19T02:42:38Z drmeister: You clone the repo and then enter top directory and go: git checkout dev38 2016-05-19T02:42:56Z loke: error: pathspec 'dev38' did not match any file(s) known to git. 2016-05-19T02:43:01Z loke: That's what I get 2016-05-19T02:43:03Z drmeister: I usually overengineer things and go: git pull origin first 2016-05-19T02:43:19Z loke: ah 2016-05-19T02:43:23Z loke: you're right. That fixed it 2016-05-19T02:45:19Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:46:38Z fouric also wondering if there is a video 2016-05-19T02:48:10Z loke: drmeister: When building externals-clasp, should I unset the GCC_TOOLCHAIN variable before building? 2016-05-19T02:48:18Z loke: Or should I set it to /usr or something? 2016-05-19T02:48:31Z drmeister: Yes, you can comment out GCC_TOOLCHAIN 2016-05-19T02:50:10Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T02:51:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-19T02:51:39Z drmeister: loke: It built for mood today. 2016-05-19T02:52:25Z drmeister: It's still pretty raw - I'm in the process of testing everything again. 2016-05-19T02:52:35Z drmeister: I just wanted to tell you that progress is being made. 2016-05-19T02:52:45Z loke: drmeister: I'm building externals right now 2016-05-19T02:52:48Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:56:02Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:57:13Z eatonphil joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:58:10Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-19T02:58:30Z loke: drmeister: Where does the externals-clasp script clone llvm39ToT from? I'm getting 15 kB/s 2016-05-19T02:58:36Z loke: that's very, very slow. 2016-05-19T02:58:41Z loke: modem speeds :-) 2016-05-19T02:58:49Z drmeister: From llvm.org directly. 2016-05-19T02:58:53Z loke: wow 2016-05-19T02:59:47Z walter|r quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T03:00:00Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:00:27Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:00:43Z drmeister: Yeah - that doesn't sound good. Hmm, I switched it recently from a github mirror to ensure that I was cloning the original. 2016-05-19T03:02:52Z vert2_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:03:35Z vert2 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:03:57Z drmeister: loke: Is there any way around it or should I switch back to a github mirror of llvm? 2016-05-19T03:04:01Z nydel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T03:04:02Z Tordek quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T03:04:07Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:04:11Z Tordek joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:04:38Z didi left #lisp 2016-05-19T03:04:50Z loke: drmeister: I tried restarting the download and it's picked up speed now. It's not super fast, but at least acceptable (486 kB/s) 2016-05-19T03:05:21Z loke: I thin that llvm.org uses a round-robin list of mirrors, so when reconnecting you get a different one. 2016-05-19T03:06:54Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:07:05Z loke: It now started syncong clang, and speed dropped to 20 kB/s again. I'm restarting. 2016-05-19T03:07:19Z loke: OK, after restart it's sped up again. 2016-05-19T03:07:29Z loke: That seems to confirm my theory of a slow mirror. 2016-05-19T03:07:59Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-19T03:09:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:11:06Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:12:12Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:14:26Z drmeister: beach: I just hit another one. 2016-05-19T03:14:38Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/Ytemb2zw/ 2016-05-19T03:15:27Z drmeister: RETURN-FROM name [result] - the result is optional but DB expects a value-form 2016-05-19T03:17:14Z beach: I am afraid I don't understand. Maybe it is too early in the morning for me. 2016-05-19T03:18:10Z drmeister: In the ECL source code is (return-from outer-loop) No return value (default nil) 2016-05-19T03:18:23Z beach: Ah, yes, I see. 2016-05-19T03:18:24Z drmeister: It's being destructured with the tree (return-from block-name value-form) 2016-05-19T03:18:25Z beach: Thanks. 2016-05-19T03:18:44Z drmeister: Is there a quick way to fix that - then I could proceed. DB doesn't take keyword arguments. 2016-05-19T03:19:15Z beach: No, but it takes dotted lists. 2016-05-19T03:20:04Z drmeister: So (db origin (return-from block-name . value-form-list) form (declare ...) (let ((value-form (car value-form-list)) ...) ? 2016-05-19T03:20:15Z Rptx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T03:20:45Z Bike: huh, why is it not just an actual destructuring-bind? 2016-05-19T03:20:58Z drmeister: Or (db origin (return-from block-name . ( value-form ) ) form ... ) ? 2016-05-19T03:21:14Z Bike: that is just what you already have 2016-05-19T03:22:17Z drmeister: DB is being modified to accept source-locations 2016-05-19T03:22:49Z beach: drmeister: Fixed. 2016-05-19T03:23:34Z drmeister: And so begins my nightmare of maintaining a fork of Sicl. 2016-05-19T03:23:39Z beach: ... or, at least I hope so. Again, it is early in the morning. 2016-05-19T03:24:17Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-19T03:25:45Z drmeister: The change looks fine. 2016-05-19T03:27:57Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:28:23Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:29:49Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:29:58Z drmeister: beach: You have a remarkably low error rate when you write code. I assume that you still don't have a way of testing the code you write. You have made a lot of changes according to the commit logs and I've only found three typos. 2016-05-19T03:30:21Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:30:42Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:31:39Z beach: drmeister: I have many commits because each one is very small. The low error rate is due to the fact that I try to respect strict CLOS protocols. Then, generally speaking, if it compiles it also works. 2016-05-19T03:31:48Z beach: Not universally true, but often so. 2016-05-19T03:32:51Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:34:35Z drmeister: And these bugs have been the destructuring-bind equivalent of "off-by-one" errors. Not that you need my validation - but I'm always impressed and delighted to work with your code. 2016-05-19T03:34:49Z beach: Thanks. 2016-05-19T03:35:18Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:35:52Z drmeister: The last commit of sicl I had was from October 9 2015 - I caught up today. I'm using bclasp+cleavir to compile cclasp. 2016-05-19T03:36:00Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:36:13Z beach: Oh, OK. 2016-05-19T03:36:26Z beach: So we can expect a few more defects perhaps. 2016-05-19T03:36:35Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:37:36Z drmeister: I wouldn't be surprised - I got to [26 of 233] when I hit the last one. 2016-05-19T03:37:45Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:38:04Z beach: Files? 2016-05-19T03:38:18Z drmeister: Yes, cclasp Common Lisp source files. 2016-05-19T03:38:36Z drmeister: About 87 are from bclasp and the rest are from Cleavir. 2016-05-19T03:39:49Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T03:39:50Z drmeister: I could incorporate your LOOP as well. 2016-05-19T03:41:08Z beach: I suggest you do one thing at a time. 2016-05-19T03:41:21Z beach: It is good engineering practice. 2016-05-19T03:42:00Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-19T03:42:21Z beach: drmeister: I am off for about 30 minutes. 2016-05-19T03:43:07Z drmeister: Ok, thank you for your help - I'll probably go to bed soon and deal with the next problem (if one appears) in the morning. 2016-05-19T03:43:27Z drmeister: Currently on [29 of 233] 2016-05-19T03:44:21Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:50:16Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-19T03:50:29Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:50:58Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T03:51:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T03:53:19Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:53:40Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:55:55Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T03:56:36Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T03:58:09Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T04:00:33Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:00:53Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:01:23Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:05:17Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T04:05:51Z drforr1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-19T04:06:10Z drforr1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:07:21Z drmeister: loke: I'm building externals-clasp on a linux machine as well, I also see very slow downloading. Something is up - it's not usually this bad. 2016-05-19T04:07:43Z loke: Try Control-C it and try again 2016-05-19T04:07:46Z loke: it was fast for me 2016-05-19T04:08:42Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T04:10:50Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T04:11:16Z nicdev`` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:11:24Z nicdev` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T04:13:05Z br0kenman joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:14:45Z beach: drmeister: I am back in case you found more problems in the meantime. 2016-05-19T04:15:05Z aeth: Is there a performance reason to represent matrices like this? (make-array (* 4 4) :element-type 'single-float) instead of (make-array '(4 4) :element-type 'single-float) 2016-05-19T04:15:56Z jasom: aeth: It probably depends on the implementation 2016-05-19T04:16:37Z jasom: aeth: if you use row-major-aref on the second one, I would expect it to be close to, if not equal to the performance on sbcl, but as always measuring trumps thinking. 2016-05-19T04:16:50Z pillton: SBCL, CCL and CMUCL use a vector as the underlying storage. 2016-05-19T04:16:57Z aeth: Is (* 4 4) just being more portable, in case of a not-very-optimized implementation? 2016-05-19T04:17:26Z pillton: You no longer know the rows and columns when using (* 4 4). 2016-05-19T04:17:29Z Bike: it might be that the storage for a multidimensional array is more complex, just because the array dimensions are more complicated than a scalar. dunno though 2016-05-19T04:20:16Z aeth: I actually have a situation in my code right now where I could model quite a few things as multidimensional, single-float '(n 4) arrays, where n can be constant throughout the run of the program if I want to waste memory in favor of CPU performance. 2016-05-19T04:20:27Z aeth: actually, '(n 3) 2016-05-19T04:21:18Z jasom: aeth: could you rotate it by 90 degress and represent everything as (3 n) where n isn't constant? Then you wouldn't waste memory 2016-05-19T04:22:23Z aeth: I am thinking of e.g. putting all of the locations of the entities in my program in a location array, where location is e.g. '(1500 3), and then also e.g. store a fixnum that says what the largest allocated entity is 2016-05-19T04:22:53Z aeth: Also one for velocities, etc... basically for everything else that I can think of that can be a vector 2016-05-19T04:24:28Z aeth: Basically, high-performance 3D game physics, where at least it will be high performance on most of the implementations that care about performance. 2016-05-19T04:24:47Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T04:25:08Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:26:19Z schally joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:28:45Z rumbler31 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T04:29:22Z rumbler31 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:30:57Z aeth: jasom: If I rotate, I'm not sure if it would be as fast. I would have to construct a vector each time it iterates, right? 2016-05-19T04:32:00Z jasom: aeth: not sure. It was just a suggestion 2016-05-19T04:32:30Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T04:32:56Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:34:05Z aeth: This has to be run potentially over 100 times a second, and cannot hog all of the time because I also need to do input, rendering, AI, etc. (The rate of the different things can be separate, though. So e.g. rendering doesn't have to run 100 times a second on most machines.) 2016-05-19T04:34:50Z aeth: I could thread it, but then there could be some messy results. The renderer needs to know at least position and orientation, which the physics will also need to know. 2016-05-19T04:35:12Z aeth: Although in theory, only the input and the physics will have to *set* values. 2016-05-19T04:35:15Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:39:54Z aeth: oh wait, you probably already know most of this because you're the same jasom in #lispcafe who talks about real time GC 2016-05-19T04:39:55Z fouric: beach! Where can I find your list on GC papers? 2016-05-19T04:40:25Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:40:50Z beach: fouric: The only list I have is in the bibliography of my GC paper at ILC. 2016-05-19T04:42:11Z jasom: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=2635648.2635655 2016-05-19T04:42:17Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:42:31Z jasom: the paper itself might be paywalled, but the references are listed on that page 2016-05-19T04:42:44Z beach: Good catch. 2016-05-19T04:42:49Z fouric: Ah, eye C 2016-05-19T04:43:04Z fouric: "ACM student member price: $5" 2016-05-19T04:43:08Z fouric: That's actually not too bad 2016-05-19T04:43:26Z beach: http://metamodular.com/sliding-gc.pdf 2016-05-19T04:43:50Z beach: Copyright retained by the author. I hereby give you permission to make a copy. :) 2016-05-19T04:44:25Z beach: fouric: One good reference is Kermany et al. 2016-05-19T04:44:33Z jasom: beach is like a version of me that is smarter and gets more things done 2016-05-19T04:44:51Z fouric: ty beach! 2016-05-19T04:45:00Z beach: jasom: That's very flattering. Not sure it is true though. 2016-05-19T04:47:40Z aeth: Hmm, what I could do is I could have a bitarray represent active entities, and then unless zerop entity aref the arrays that store the vectors (as in the math concept) that I do most operations on. At that point, I am not sure if hashes would be roughly speed equivalent to either subsetting a flat upgraded array or using a #2A 2016-05-19T04:49:24Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T04:50:09Z aeth: I would still need some way to tell if that component is active for the entity or not, though. I currently allow nil in my arrays, which wouldn't work if I turn these arrays of nils-and-arrays into a #2A so I could either use a hash, or use a second bitarray or something else... hmm 2016-05-19T04:52:13Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:53:01Z beach: jasom: Perhaps there would be a way to get organized so that you could get more things done? Do you think there is something I could do to help make that happen? 2016-05-19T04:53:21Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-19T04:55:16Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T04:56:20Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:57:02Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T04:57:32Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:05:13Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:09:47Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T05:13:31Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:16:27Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T05:17:01Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:17:44Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:24:03Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-19T05:25:23Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:27:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:27:11Z asc232 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T05:28:07Z temp joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:30:47Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:31:58Z temp left #lisp 2016-05-19T05:34:33Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-19T05:35:00Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:38:29Z aluminumtubes quit (Quit: aluminumtubes) 2016-05-19T05:39:49Z aeth: Is there an unseen downside to doing something like logior/logand/etc? 2016-05-19T05:41:44Z schally: as opposed to doing what? 2016-05-19T05:42:11Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T05:42:29Z Zhivago: There are always unseen downsides. 2016-05-19T05:43:35Z aeth: What I'm doing is creating an '(unsigned-byte n) array and doing logfoo bit operations on the items in the array 2016-05-19T05:44:05Z aeth: To make data as compact as possible, at the expense of being a bit lower level 2016-05-19T05:45:48Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-19T05:46:06Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:46:19Z aeth: The downside I can think of is that I then can't expand this n at runtime, which I gave up doing already. 2016-05-19T05:46:35Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-19T05:46:39Z aeth: There will be literally just as many bytes as I need and nothing more 2016-05-19T05:46:46Z aeth: s/bytes/bits/ 2016-05-19T05:47:09Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T05:48:02Z schally: you could get the next largest power of 2, so at least its nice like that 2016-05-19T05:48:22Z schally: right? 2016-05-19T05:49:15Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-19T05:49:24Z aeth: Technically, I'm doing that right now because I made it '(unsigned-byte 4) even though I only have 3 bits I want to mess with right now 2016-05-19T05:49:58Z aeth: In the final program, it will probably be 8 or 16 2016-05-19T05:51:16Z loke: aeth: The only implementation I've seen that compresses arrays on the bit-level is CLISP 2016-05-19T05:51:34Z loke: others just use the greatest power of 8. 2016-05-19T05:51:38Z loke: I mean smallest 2016-05-19T05:51:43Z aeth: ah, 8 2016-05-19T05:52:03Z aeth: I guess it doesn't really matter that much 2016-05-19T05:52:11Z aeth: Especially since my target was 8 or 16 2016-05-19T05:55:06Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T05:55:20Z aeth: As someone might have already guessed, I'm basically doing this as a boolean-equivalent. 2016-05-19T05:57:29Z nightfly quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-19T05:59:09Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-19T05:59:51Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:00:19Z PinealGlandOptic joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:00:48Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:02:07Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:03:24Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:04:39Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:05:39Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T06:06:24Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:07:05Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:09:22Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:10:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-19T06:11:23Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:11:32Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T06:11:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:12:46Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:13:30Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:14:07Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:14:33Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:14:34Z schally quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:15:13Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:16:04Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:17:22Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:19:42Z aeth: What I like about Lisp is that with the power of macros no one needs to know that I am doing low level stuff. What I don't like about Lisp is with the power of macros wow I can't spot my bug right now :-p 2016-05-19T06:22:31Z clog quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:23:07Z aeth: ... 2016-05-19T06:23:18Z aeth: I added a debug FORMAT statement and now it works 2016-05-19T06:26:48Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:26:57Z schally joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:28:06Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:28:07Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:28:33Z Bike: errors that disappear when you insert print statements are, like, the third worst kind of error 2016-05-19T06:29:17Z peey: sbcl debugger call stacks always did it for me 2016-05-19T06:29:23Z schally: I had one once that was cutting into the middle of my debug statement 2016-05-19T06:29:26Z peey: but then, I never have done any production stuff on lisp 2016-05-19T06:29:27Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:29:36Z schally: i'd get like half of it and then runtime error 2016-05-19T06:30:03Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:30:22Z Bike: i found out that sbcl exports some backtrace introspection, so i wrote something to look for frames of my interpreter when there's an error in interpreted code, and it almost works. pretty slick 2016-05-19T06:30:42Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-19T06:30:44Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:31:04Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T06:31:04Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-19T06:31:21Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:32:45Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:34:02Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:34:54Z PinealGlandOptic quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T06:39:39Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:41:59Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:42:24Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:44:43Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:46:03Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T06:46:05Z pirahna884 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:46:13Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:46:14Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T06:46:14Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:46:21Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:47:06Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:50:04Z wilornel1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:50:38Z phoe_krk: Hey! 2016-05-19T06:50:41Z wilornel1: Hey guys! Do you know if anyone has tried to replicate Haskell's many appreciated functionality in a lisp, as a lisp dialect? 2016-05-19T06:50:49Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-19T06:50:54Z Bike: it's called "Shen", i think. 2016-05-19T06:50:57Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-19T06:51:24Z wilornel1: Checking it out 2016-05-19T06:51:27Z Zhivago: Shen is not purely functional or lazy. 2016-05-19T06:51:32Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:51:43Z Bike: can't win em all 2016-05-19T06:51:47Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:51:51Z wilornel1: It doesn't seen to have monads, for example 2016-05-19T06:52:09Z Bike: i think there's also a haskell with parenthetical syntax 2016-05-19T06:52:14Z jackdaniel: I saw CL monads *somewhere* 2016-05-19T06:52:18Z wilornel1: So, I guess that some attempts have been made? It seems like it is a difficult undertaking 2016-05-19T06:52:26Z jackdaniel: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-monad-macros/monad-macros.htm 2016-05-19T06:52:50Z jackdaniel: good morning 2016-05-19T06:52:56Z Zhivago: It depends on what you think the 'appreciated functionality' is. 2016-05-19T06:52:56Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:52:58Z wilornel1: jackdaniel: Yep! I was checking out this webpage earlier, which made me realize that it IS possible. Is it practical? 2016-05-19T06:53:34Z Bike: people use them for parser combinators or something 2016-05-19T06:53:38Z wilornel1: Zhivago: I mean, the types, the Functors, Applicatives, monads, currying, etc. (Those are the few functionalities I know of) 2016-05-19T06:54:01Z jackdaniel: wilornel1: I don't know, I'm not a Haskell programmer (but it's on my todo list to learn it) 2016-05-19T06:54:05Z Zhivago: Well, most of those are easily supported in CL. 2016-05-19T06:54:34Z wilornel1: So, if Haskell can be simulated using lisp... 2016-05-19T06:54:51Z phoe_krk: it's hard not to have a language simulated using Common Lisp 2016-05-19T06:54:53Z wilornel1: Would it be significantly slower? 2016-05-19T06:55:03Z phoe_krk: wilornel1: this is an open question. 2016-05-19T06:55:07Z wilornel1: phoe_krk: Agreed. I just wonder if it would be practical in this case 2016-05-19T06:55:08Z mathi_aihtam quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T06:55:24Z pirahna884 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T06:55:25Z wilornel1: (Agreed that any language could be simulated using lisp) 2016-05-19T06:55:31Z phoe_krk: Depends on how you implement it and *when* you would prefer the slowness to occur. 2016-05-19T06:55:34Z wilornel1: I see, that measure is open 2016-05-19T06:55:36Z Bike: it's not a matter of simulation 2016-05-19T06:55:41Z jackdaniel: wilornel1: I'd say that some languages are defined by their limitations – ie it may not let you to mutate something – in that sense having Haskell *in* Lisp and having the means to not obey these limitations isn't much of improvement 2016-05-19T06:55:41Z pirahna884 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:56:07Z Bike: that's a reductionist argument that's usually not really relevant to programming, since anything can simulate anything 2016-05-19T06:56:18Z Bike: you don't need to write an interpreter to curry or partially evaluate in lisp 2016-05-19T06:56:32Z wilornel1: I feel like if you could have Lisp and its adhoc type of workflow and some of Haskell's functionality, it would be pretty cool 2016-05-19T06:56:39Z wilornel1: It would allow for quick development 2016-05-19T06:56:44Z phoe_krk: wilornel1: define "some of Haskell's functionality" 2016-05-19T06:56:48Z Zhivago: Special variables introduce challenges for partial evaluation. 2016-05-19T06:57:06Z wilornel1: phoe_krk: I listed them ealier. Types, Functors, Applicatives, Monads, Currying 2016-05-19T06:57:13Z phoe_krk: types - check 2016-05-19T06:57:18Z Bike: haskell has something like special variables, or at least GHC does, so it probably works out (I think by having the mechanism be almost entirely separate from parameters) 2016-05-19T06:57:37Z Bike: lisp types are kind of shit compared to haskell's 2016-05-19T06:58:11Z wilornel1: Hmmm I see 2016-05-19T06:58:22Z Bike: the rest is, like zhivago said, pretty easy 2016-05-19T06:58:41Z Zhivago: Well, he left out most of the hard ones. :) 2016-05-19T06:58:41Z wilornel1: Well, I guess that you could always write in part in Haskell and in part in Lis 2016-05-19T06:58:42Z wilornel1: p 2016-05-19T06:58:51Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T06:58:58Z Bike: getting language runtimes to cooperate is not fun 2016-05-19T06:59:00Z wilornel1: (Yes, I do not know of a lot of Haskell's functionality) 2016-05-19T06:59:30Z phoe_krk: there's development going on which extends and fixes CL's type system 2016-05-19T06:59:37Z wilornel1: Ahhh... If only Haskell was 2016-05-19T06:59:39Z Bike: is there, now? 2016-05-19T06:59:42Z phoe_krk: Jim Newton spoke about it on last year's ELS. 2016-05-19T06:59:50Z phoe_krk: Yes, he called it Regular Type Expressions. 2016-05-19T07:00:18Z wilornel1: https://github.com/jimka2001/regular-type-expression 2016-05-19T07:00:19Z phoe_krk: Which allows you to define e.g. a plist or alist with particular value type as a type of its own. 2016-05-19T07:00:24Z Bike: no readme, how sad 2016-05-19T07:00:28Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-19T07:00:47Z phoe_krk: Bike: check out this year's proceedings, there's a paper there 2016-05-19T07:01:08Z phoe_krk: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~idurand/ELS/ELS2016/2016.pdf 2016-05-19T07:01:18Z Bike: thank you for link 2016-05-19T07:01:25Z wilornel1: Ah, yes thanks for that 2016-05-19T07:01:27Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:01:35Z phoe_krk: My pleasure~ 2016-05-19T07:01:51Z phoe_krk: But basically, he was able to fix many of the issues CL type system has. 2016-05-19T07:01:54Z Bike: "Type-Checking of Heterogeneous Sequences in Common Lisp"? sounds kind of unambitious 2016-05-19T07:02:07Z pirahna884 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:02:21Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:03:22Z phoe_krk: don't judge a paper by its cover 2016-05-19T07:03:47Z Bike: okay. it's a way to specify a regular expression type for sequences. i can see that being useful, but it's not really the fundamental problem with types. 2016-05-19T07:05:21Z phoe_krk: He was able to pass this to compiler declarations and have this actually used for optimization AFAIR. 2016-05-19T07:05:22Z aeth: The flaw I noticed in the type system is that you can set an integer range, and you can set a string size, but you can't set a string size range 2016-05-19T07:05:40Z peey: There exist annual lisp symposiums? Fun. 2016-05-19T07:05:42Z aeth: I suppose you could use left-pad to always make sure strings are at the maximum size 2016-05-19T07:05:43Z Bike: the basic flaw is that when you run into a lack like that, you can't fix it. 2016-05-19T07:05:52Z Zhivago: Well, it really just sets up a homogenous type for a given list. 2016-05-19T07:07:08Z Bike: rte here works by satisfies. let's see how it does optimization, then. 2016-05-19T07:07:40Z peey: Julia is considered a lisp dialect? 2016-05-19T07:08:03Z jackdaniel: more like lisp-inspired language I think 2016-05-19T07:08:27Z Bike: and the paper mentions not being able to use recursive types... 2016-05-19T07:08:43Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:08:44Z jackdaniel: but it's all fuzzy :) it doesn't have enough parens ;) 2016-05-19T07:09:29Z aeth: Oh by the way, since people brought up stuff in Haskell... does anyone do functional reactive programming in CL? It seems popular enough 2016-05-19T07:09:32Z Bike: well, there's no mention of integrating with the compiler, just a macro. so. neat, and would be neater if the type system allowed it 2016-05-19T07:09:43Z aeth: Haskell has quite a few FRP libraries. https://hackage.haskell.org/packages/#cat:FRP 2016-05-19T07:09:48Z jackdaniel: hm, the rte is just an ad-hoc approach to types – it doesn't act in-par with the implementation whatsoever, scrapping the declarations – I think it should use just check-type 2016-05-19T07:09:55Z jackdaniel: because it's not a declaration for the compiler 2016-05-19T07:10:40Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T07:10:42Z Bike: aeth: there's an old thing called "Cells" that does "dataflow programming", which is related or something probably. 2016-05-19T07:10:52Z phoe_krk: Then I got it wrong. 2016-05-19T07:10:54Z jackdaniel: (it's very clever and may be useful) 2016-05-19T07:10:57Z jackdaniel: still 2016-05-19T07:12:52Z Bike: apparently verilog is reactive programming. i weep 2016-05-19T07:13:09Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:13:19Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:13:36Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:14:06Z mathi_aihtam joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:15:13Z pidu joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:16:09Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:19:29Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:22:49Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:24:58Z pidu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T07:25:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:28:27Z vydd quit 2016-05-19T07:30:22Z Zhivago: Personally, I think that anything regarding types that is not time invariant is probably not actually regarding types. 2016-05-19T07:34:37Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T07:35:19Z smokeink quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T07:35:21Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T07:36:28Z yrdz` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:36:57Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:37:01Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:39:09Z Bike quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:39:29Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:40:05Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:40:07Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:41:33Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:42:46Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:42:54Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:45:30Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:49:45Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:50:00Z ASau quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:51:18Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:52:23Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:52:40Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T07:53:20Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:53:44Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:55:04Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T07:55:08Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-19T07:56:00Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-19T07:58:02Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:02:59Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T08:03:24Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:08:51Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:09:40Z kai_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:11:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T08:11:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:19:40Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-05-19T08:21:04Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:21:18Z Bike quit (Quit: heffalump) 2016-05-19T08:22:23Z clog joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:22:24Z schally quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:24:49Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:25:06Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:29:10Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:29:19Z kai_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T08:29:19Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:35:19Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:35:21Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-19T08:35:44Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:36:25Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T08:37:14Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-19T08:38:30Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:39:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T08:39:54Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:45:22Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:45:39Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T08:46:00Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:46:57Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-19T08:47:48Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:48:38Z gabriel_laddel: If someone knows how to get 'live' presentations in climacs buffers, please lmk. 2016-05-19T08:49:01Z jdz: what's a "live presentation"? 2016-05-19T08:49:30Z gabriel_laddel: those that you can fully operate on, and can be accept'd 2016-05-19T08:49:58Z gabriel_laddel: if you use the code I dropped in here the other day, it'll visually show the object, and the object is in the climacs buffer, but you can't operate on it 2016-05-19T08:50:01Z gabriel_laddel: which is irritating 2016-05-19T08:50:22Z gabriel_laddel: and is preventing me from banging out the clim-spec-in-clim. 2016-05-19T08:51:53Z gabriel_laddel: http://imgur.com/i0TY9cg 2016-05-19T08:52:39Z gabriel_laddel: ^ I rewrote the tree-widget to be less insane, and did some basic tree traversals to reduce all the CLIM spec pages into basic lisp forms that can then be turned into objects, then assigned presentations and operated on in a drei buffer 2016-05-19T08:53:32Z gabriel_laddel: there are a few (2, perhaps 3) pages which currently fail the HTML-> lisp translation, but this isn't a big deal. 2016-05-19T08:53:41Z jdz: gabriel_laddel: maybe you're missing presentation type translators? 2016-05-19T08:54:01Z gabriel_laddel: jdz: I shouldn't be - at least as I understand them. 2016-05-19T08:54:07Z gabriel_laddel: Will look into it, thanks. 2016-05-19T08:56:18Z gabriel_laddel: jdz: the problem, as I understand it, is the way that DREI renders it's contents. 2016-05-19T08:56:36Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T08:56:58Z gabriel_laddel: eg, (defmethod display-drei-view-contents ((pane basic-pane) (view drei-buffer-view)) ...) in drei-redisplay, around line 800 2016-05-19T08:57:41Z gabriel_laddel: we use with-output-recording-options, and pass it "(pane :record nil :draw t)" 2016-05-19T08:58:04Z gabriel_laddel: which does just that - we don't have an output history for this pane, afaik, but we do draw to it. 2016-05-19T08:58:24Z gabriel_laddel: without having the location of all the presentations in the pane recorded in the output history, we can't accept them. 2016-05-19T08:59:10Z gabriel_laddel: anyways, I'll dig into this later if no one else does - but if someone else has already written the code... 2016-05-19T08:59:24Z gabriel_laddel: just name me in the logs I suppose. 2016-05-19T08:59:27Z jdz: gabriel_laddel: from your description i understand that presentation type is also not being associated with the output 2016-05-19T08:59:41Z moore33: gabriel_laddel: Coming in late... is this Climacs, or McCLIM? 2016-05-19T08:59:49Z gabriel_laddel: moore33: in climacs 2016-05-19T08:59:54Z gabriel_laddel: jdz: yep. 2016-05-19T09:00:37Z gabriel_laddel: moore33: it isn't a bug, but rather that I'd like to be able to present arbitrary objects into a drei buffer (this works) and operate on them (this doesnt) 2016-05-19T09:00:47Z jdz: gabriel_laddel: so there's your problem, no? 2016-05-19T09:00:54Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T09:01:07Z jdz: can't expect the presentations to work if they're not used 2016-05-19T09:01:24Z gabriel_laddel: jdz: yes. I'm voicing this on the off chance someone else has already written the code, has it sitting around on disk... 2016-05-19T09:01:37Z jdz: ah, ok 2016-05-19T09:02:11Z gabriel_laddel: jdz: the obvious fixes (changing &key args) don't work. 2016-05-19T09:02:33Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:02:40Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:05:18Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-19T09:05:42Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T09:06:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:15:23Z moore33: gabriel_laddel: Sounds like a reasonable thing to do. However, I think drei uses something quite different from the usual output records for its "recording," so you'd need to write the needed method(s) to search that data structure. 2016-05-19T09:15:57Z Wasdaf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T09:16:19Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T09:17:33Z fUD quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-19T09:22:11Z emlow joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:24:23Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:26:49Z shifty: wish to convert (maybe print?) 123.456 to n significant figures. any bright ideas? 2016-05-19T09:26:52Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T09:27:22Z Valheru quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T09:27:44Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:27:56Z loke: shifty: Use FORMAT 2016-05-19T09:29:39Z shifty: loke: /slightly/ more specificity would be appreciated. 2016-05-19T09:30:00Z loke: shifty: I'm pretty much as precise as can be. You'd have to be a bit more specific in how you want things formatted. 2016-05-19T09:30:35Z raoulvdberge joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:30:56Z loke: And then we'll be able to help 2016-05-19T09:30:57Z shifty: ok. please use FORMAT to print the float 123.456 to two significant figures to *standard-output*. 2016-05-19T09:31:27Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:31:42Z loke: I understand _that_. The question is what "significant figure" means. You want that to display 120000 ? 2016-05-19T09:32:02Z loke: or if that's a decimal number, 120? 2016-05-19T09:32:23Z loke: Is the period a decimal or thousands marker? 2016-05-19T09:33:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T09:33:35Z shifty: loke: 120. 2016-05-19T09:34:07Z loke: All right. 2016-05-19T09:34:10Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:35:02Z loke: That's an interesting problem. I'm wondering if FORMAT can actualyl do that. 2016-05-19T09:36:06Z loke: This problem can be reduce to a question of how to effectively round an integer to some num,ber of significant digits. FORMAT seems to be unable to do that, o you'll have to use ROUND 2016-05-19T09:36:23Z shifty: loke: I was hoping for a simple "~magic" and then I could continue from there. However, it might be beneficial to understand the task... more coming... 2016-05-19T09:37:05Z moore33: A combination of log, expt, and round... 2016-05-19T09:37:26Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T09:37:28Z loke: shifty: Well, at first I was under the assumption that you wanted to round the decimals, which is easy of course. Then I realised that integer rouding is actually not handled by FORMAT, so you'll have to write your own function for it. Which should be trivial. 2016-05-19T09:37:38Z loke: mood: exactly 2016-05-19T09:37:40Z loke: moore33: 2016-05-19T09:37:42Z igam: shifty: (format t "~vf~%" (1+ 2) 123.456) 2016-05-19T09:38:02Z shifty: loke: I am parsing SVG files, wanting to reduce the number of digits. Often the file contains 123.45678 etc, which is not needed. Hence: I wanted to convert them to a given number of "significant figures" (which is better than decimal places, because in the same file we often see 0.00123456). 2016-05-19T09:38:18Z loke: igam: That does not do what he wants. 2016-05-19T09:38:23Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T09:38:37Z blackwolf joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:38:39Z igam: That's my point. He asked for significant figures. This is what it means. 2016-05-19T09:38:52Z loke: shifty: Is there some specific need to remove digits? Why not just keep them? Or is this for presentation purposes? 2016-05-19T09:38:59Z moore33: igam: Always helpful :) 2016-05-19T09:39:10Z loke: igam: You gave the answer for "significant decimals". Not fogures. 2016-05-19T09:39:12Z loke: figures. 2016-05-19T09:39:19Z igam: shifty: if you want something else, you will have to implement your own formatter, and write (format t "~V/shifty-figures/~%" 2 123.456) 2016-05-19T09:41:05Z igam: loke: no. see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_figures#Rounding_and_decimal_places 2016-05-19T09:41:34Z loke: igam: Sure. 2016-05-19T09:41:35Z shifty: loke: call it "presentation purposes". I'm not getting paid to do it... 2016-05-19T09:41:35Z igam: for example: the line: "1 10 12.3" which corresponds to the situation of the example above. 2016-05-19T09:41:39Z loke: igam: But your solution does not do that. 2016-05-19T09:43:06Z loke: ~Vf will only round decimals, not figures. (format t "~2f" 12345) will print 12345. 2016-05-19T09:43:37Z igam: loke: it does: (loop for p from 6 downto 0 do (format t "~D ~VF~%" p (1+ p) 12.345)) 2016-05-19T09:44:13Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:44:23Z igam: mostly; it fails for 6 by prefixing a space. 2016-05-19T09:44:41Z loke: For me, it prints 1 12. 2016-05-19T09:44:46Z loke: Not 1 10. 2016-05-19T09:44:49Z shifty: actually I'm a little surprised. OK, so we've honed in on FORMAT. That can't be the only solution. I really just want to round to X sig figs, maybe remove the trailing zeros, and print that. I would have thought this was a solved problem. 2016-05-19T09:44:53Z loke: What CL are you using? 2016-05-19T09:44:53Z igam: I'm on ccl. 2016-05-19T09:45:28Z igam: Unfortunately, implementations are often not sure about conformity of ~F and ~G formatters. 2016-05-19T09:45:28Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:45:35Z loke: igam: That explans things. SBCL and CCL differs here. 2016-05-19T09:45:47Z igam: One more reason to use a custom formatter in those cases, I'd say. 2016-05-19T09:46:03Z loke: igam: but which one is actually correct? 2016-05-19T09:46:18Z igam: We'd have to check clhs; it'd take time. 2016-05-19T09:46:20Z shifty: loke: the one you are using, of course... 2016-05-19T09:46:24Z loke: I haven't read it in a while, but I recall learning the SBCL behaviour by reading the spec. 2016-05-19T09:46:44Z loke goes to reread the spec. 2016-05-19T09:46:49Z moore33: I would never expect ~f to remove digits to the left of the decimal point, but I haven't read that part of the spec carefully. 2016-05-19T09:47:32Z loke: moore33: It doesn't. But CCL rounds 123 to 100 (when ued with ~1f) 2016-05-19T09:47:35Z igam: shifty: well, basically ~f does what you want more or less. 2016-05-19T09:47:43Z shifty: OK guys, forget FORMAT temporarily. Any other ideas? 2016-05-19T09:47:53Z loke: shifty: Maths :-) 2016-05-19T09:48:00Z igam: shifty: I told you, write your own formatter function, and use it in format! 2016-05-19T09:48:00Z moore33: shifty: log, expt, round, ... 2016-05-19T09:48:47Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:48:58Z splittist: call out to Fortran? 2016-05-19T09:49:25Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:49:25Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T09:49:25Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:49:29Z loke: igam: I'd argue that CCL is doing the wrong thing, based on the following quote from the spec. Thoughts? 2016-05-19T09:49:30Z loke: "If it is impossible to print the value in the required format in a field of width w, then one of two actions is taken. If the parameter overflowchar is supplied, then w copies of that parameter are printed instead of the scaled value of arg. If the overflowchar parameter is omitted, then the scaled value is printed using more than w characters, as many more as may be needed." 2016-05-19T09:49:36Z shifty: Yup. Maths - perfect answer. At least I asked before reinventing the wheel. At least I asked. 2016-05-19T09:50:05Z loke: shifty: Hey, you managed to trigger a discussion leading to CLHS quotes. You can't do better than that :-) 2016-05-19T09:50:08Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-19T09:50:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T09:50:49Z igam: loke: possibly. 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Since I have to convert my strings.. 2016-05-19T11:27:15Z jdz: i'd guess postmodern creates strings with fill pointers 2016-05-19T11:27:21Z jdz: which are not simple-arrays 2016-05-19T11:27:33Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:27:54Z jdz: i would not use a JSON parser library that cannot parse from a stream 2016-05-19T11:28:33Z jdz: any parsing library that cannot parse from a stream 2016-05-19T11:28:36Z loke: ST-JSON is my favourite 2016-05-19T11:29:16Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:30:27Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:35:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:35:48Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:38:03Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:38:19Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T11:39:17Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:42:59Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:43:25Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T11:44:28Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:46:10Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T11:46:29Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:46:42Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T11:52:35Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:53:17Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T11:53:19Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T11:58:20Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:00:15Z gdmalet_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:05:38Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:07:30Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:13:55Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:15:38Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-19T12:18:46Z nopf quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T12:18:47Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T12:19:41Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:21:37Z nopf joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:23:01Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:25:37Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T12:26:21Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:26:36Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T12:27:18Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:27:25Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:30:58Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:31:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:33:27Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:36:00Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:37:37Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:37:40Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:38:00Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T12:38:01Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-19T12:38:24Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:38:36Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:40:20Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:40:41Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T12:41:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:41:31Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:45:57Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:47:36Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:48:24Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:49:43Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:50:52Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:51:19Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:51:39Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:52:02Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T12:52:03Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-19T12:53:54Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:55:49Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T12:57:01Z moore33: Has anyone used hu.dwim.computed-class ? 2016-05-19T13:02:58Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:04:08Z tsuru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:06:12Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:07:05Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:07:35Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T13:08:09Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:10:14Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:10:24Z raoulvdberge quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-19T13:11:03Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:11:57Z fugue0 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:12:06Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:12:55Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:13:30Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:17:24Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:17:36Z ghsk joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:18:30Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:19:25Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T13:22:55Z H4ns: Xach: I'm running into an issue with ZS3:AUTHORIZED-URL which seems to specify the X-Amz-Expires header as absolute unix-time, but it seems to have to be specified as delta seconds. Does that ring any bell? 2016-05-19T13:24:17Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:24:47Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:25:52Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:26:02Z dayo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:26:27Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:26:55Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:27:40Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:28:22Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:32:30Z H4ns: Xach: apparently, you've changed the way how you sign the URLs, but the new form that you use needs a delta expiration, not an absolute time. 2016-05-19T13:32:38Z H4ns: Xach: I'll test and open a PR. 2016-05-19T13:33:04Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:33:49Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:34:34Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:34:34Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T13:34:34Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:37:31Z warweasle: What is industry standard? CR, PR, etc? 2016-05-19T13:37:52Z jdz: MR? 2016-05-19T13:39:03Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:40:44Z dlowe: there's lots and lots of standards 2016-05-19T13:40:47Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:41:08Z dlowe: PR is git-specific though 2016-05-19T13:41:25Z eudoxia: just use PRs because github supports them 2016-05-19T13:41:25Z minion: eudoxia, memo from phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/clus-data/ 2016-05-19T13:41:25Z jdz: you mean github-specific 2016-05-19T13:41:33Z eudoxia: thanks minion 2016-05-19T13:41:42Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:41:53Z dlowe: github invented the term. It may have spread. 2016-05-19T13:42:01Z dlowe: I don't know any other system where you "pull" though 2016-05-19T13:42:10Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:42:20Z jdz: yep, the term does not correspond to what actually happens at all 2016-05-19T13:43:02Z dlowe: yeah, it's more of a MR, as you said 2016-05-19T13:43:42Z araujo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:45:06Z araujo__ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-19T13:45:45Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:45:55Z araujo__ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:46:09Z igam: jdz: the merger uses the git pull command. 2016-05-19T13:46:33Z araujo__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T13:46:55Z araujo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T13:46:58Z jdz: i don't 2016-05-19T13:47:19Z igam: What do you do? 2016-05-19T13:47:37Z jdz: git fetch 2016-05-19T13:47:51Z jdz: then git diff 2016-05-19T13:47:58Z jdz: and then, if the diff is good, git merge 2016-05-19T13:48:06Z jdz: most probably a rebase in between 2016-05-19T13:48:51Z eudoxia left #lisp 2016-05-19T13:49:45Z igam: ok. git pull does fetch+merge at once. You're the prudent guy. 2016-05-19T13:50:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:51:34Z jdz: i also have aliased 'git fap' to 'git fetch --all -p' to stay atop of things 2016-05-19T13:52:29Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:56:04Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:56:23Z warweasle: jdz: That's just wrong 2016-05-19T13:56:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T13:57:10Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T14:00:10Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:04:23Z yang_ is now known as yang 2016-05-19T14:07:04Z H4ns: Xach: https://github.com/xach/zs3/pull/19 2016-05-19T14:07:33Z XachX_: I'll check 2016-05-19T14:08:23Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:08:36Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:09:49Z RainBowww joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:10:34Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:11:32Z bjorkintosh quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T14:12:32Z sup5 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:13:26Z dayo_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-19T14:17:05Z jasom quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:21:10Z aluminumtubes joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:22:34Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:22:45Z RainBowww left #lisp 2016-05-19T14:30:46Z jasom joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:34:17Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:35:50Z Xach: H4ns: Thanks. How are things working with the new auth, otherwise? 2016-05-19T14:35:51Z brfennpocock joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:38:39Z oGMo quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net) 2016-05-19T14:39:36Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:39:57Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:40:03Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:41:22Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:50:13Z oGMo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:51:32Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:51:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:51:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T14:51:49Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:52:47Z ramky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T14:53:04Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:53:10Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:53:29Z karswell` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T14:54:15Z attila_lendvai quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T14:54:15Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:54:29Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:54:36Z mishoo_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T14:56:44Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:56:57Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T14:58:01Z warweasle quit (Quit: Be back later...) 2016-05-19T14:58:06Z H4ns: Xach: I can't complain, but we have not used it beyond my initial testing yet. We're going to deploy some things in Frankfurt soon, then I'll have more practice. 2016-05-19T14:58:13Z Xach: Ok. 2016-05-19T14:58:54Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T14:58:59Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:00:56Z mathi_aihtam quit (Quit: mathi_aihtam) 2016-05-19T15:01:19Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:02:00Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:04:06Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-19T15:04:16Z drmeister: If I want to (load (compile-file "foo.lisp")) and I don't want the fasl file dumped in the same directory "foo.lisp" came from - what should I do? What is the best practice? 2016-05-19T15:04:29Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:05:10Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:05:58Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:06:21Z unbalancedparen quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T15:06:44Z Xach: drmeister: compile-file takes a fasl file argument 2016-05-19T15:06:47Z Xach: drmeister: you could use that 2016-05-19T15:07:00Z Xach: drmeister: that's how asdf automatically puts fasl files in the cache directory instead of next to the source file. 2016-05-19T15:07:15Z cmatei quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T15:07:21Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:07:21Z cmatei_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:08:08Z drmeister: I have a "TMP" hostname that points to /tmp/**/*.* within Clasp. 2016-05-19T15:08:14Z drmeister: Is this kosher? (merge-pathnames #P"TMP:" (compile-file-pathname "sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp")) 2016-05-19T15:08:32Z drmeister: --> #P"TMP:CLASP-ANALYZER.FASL.NEWEST" 2016-05-19T15:08:42Z drmeister: I should probably put a truename in there somewhere 2016-05-19T15:09:04Z agspathis joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:09:10Z jackdaniel: drmeister: shouldn't it be the other way around? (merge-pathnames pathname base) 2016-05-19T15:09:12Z drmeister: Nope, nope, nope - not truename - it doesn't exist yet 2016-05-19T15:09:26Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-19T15:09:27Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T15:09:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:09:40Z jackdaniel: a, nvm 2016-05-19T15:11:12Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:11:17Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I'm a noob - but I think of it like (merge-pathnames ) 2016-05-19T15:12:19Z jackdaniel: then I may be just wrong 2016-05-19T15:12:23Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:12:26Z Xach: drmeister: I find it helpful to think of it more as (merge-pathnames "important-but-possibly-incomplete-parts" "defaults-to-complete-the-incomplate-pathname") 2016-05-19T15:12:53Z Xach: where 'incomplete' means missing directory, or type, or name, etc. 2016-05-19T15:13:13Z drmeister: Excellent - thank you. 2016-05-19T15:13:15Z jackdaniel: drmeister: try (merge-pathnames "/a/b/c" "/d/e/f"), it picks the latter 2016-05-19T15:13:46Z jackdaniel: the former° 2016-05-19T15:14:17Z drmeister: Uh - right - the former. (phew). 2016-05-19T15:14:28Z drmeister: No problem, it's easy to get confused. 2016-05-19T15:14:46Z drmeister: I like Xach's explanation. 2016-05-19T15:15:28Z Xach: drmeister: i remember it by recalling that *default-pathname-defaults* is the second implicit argument - it provides "defaults" to complete your incomplete pathname. 2016-05-19T15:15:54Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:16:09Z drmeister: This gives me something I can use: (translate-logical-pathname (merge-pathnames #P"TMP:" (compile-file-pathname "sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp"))) --> #P"/tmp/clasp-analyzer.fasl" 2016-05-19T15:16:21Z Xach: drmeister: And I use that defaults concept in other places, e.g. I have a directory full of html templates named "front.html", "menu.html", etc. so I have a variable called *html-template-defaults* like #p"/path/to/templates/template.html" 2016-05-19T15:16:42Z drmeister: But as a rule, should I not let logical pathnames propagate at all? 2016-05-19T15:16:47Z Xach: then I can get a full path with (merge-pathnames "menu" *html-template-defaults*) - it picks up the ".html" as the pathname-type from the defaults. 2016-05-19T15:17:19Z Bike: i don't understand why your merge-pathnames call wouldn't result in tmp:modules/clasp-analyzer;class-analyzer.lsp 2016-05-19T15:17:56Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:18:24Z drmeister: eg: Is this better? (merge-pathnames (translate-logical-pathname #P"TMP:") (compile-file-pathname (translate-logical-pathname "sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp"))) --> #P"/tmp/clasp-analyzer.fasl" 2016-05-19T15:20:12Z kolko quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:21:29Z drmeister: Bike: I don't understand that either now that I look at it. 2016-05-19T15:21:45Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:21:47Z drmeister: On clasp: (merge-pathnames #P "tmp:" #P"SYS:MODULES;CLASP-ANALYZER;CLASP-ANALYZER.FASL.NEWEST") --> #P"TMP:CLASP-ANALYZER.FASL.NEWEST" 2016-05-19T15:21:51Z drmeister: Checking others 2016-05-19T15:22:49Z drmeister: SBCL doesn't have TMP: 2016-05-19T15:23:02Z drmeister: How do I get a list of hostnames? 2016-05-19T15:23:04Z drmeister: Grr 2016-05-19T15:23:25Z drmeister: ECL does the same thing 2016-05-19T15:23:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XIx4knlC/ 2016-05-19T15:24:14Z drmeister: Is this a bug that I've faithfully reproduced? 2016-05-19T15:24:35Z drmeister: Because this code is implemented in ECL in Cee and in Clasp in C++ 2016-05-19T15:25:02Z drmeister: To the Bat-CLHS! 2016-05-19T15:25:24Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:25:47Z Bike: after i define a TMP logical host in what i think is the right way, (merge-pathnames #p"TMP:" #p"SYS:MODULES;CLASP-ANALYZER;CLASP-ANALYZER.LSP") => #p"TMP:CLASP-ANALYZER.LSP.NEWEST" on sbcl, which raises the question of where newest is coming from 2016-05-19T15:26:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:26:42Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-19T15:27:09Z drmeister: No, this behavior is fine. 2016-05-19T15:27:23Z drmeister: It's merging two pathnames that are both :absolute 2016-05-19T15:27:45Z drmeister: The first one #P"tmp:" has a directory (:absolute) 2016-05-19T15:27:47Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:28:06Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-19T15:28:10Z Bike: i see, sorta 2016-05-19T15:28:16Z drmeister: The second #P"sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp" has the directory (:absolute "MODULES" "CLASP-ANALYZER") 2016-05-19T15:28:19Z igam: drmeister: you can also do (make-pathname :host "TMP" :directory (pathname-directory path) :name (pathname-name path) :type (pathname-type path) :version (pathname-version path)) instead of merge-pathnames, if you want to keep the directory. But then you will have to call ensure-directories-exist on the result before trying to open/create the file. 2016-05-19T15:28:36Z drmeister: It's not going to overwrite the directory of the first one with the directory of the second one. 2016-05-19T15:29:40Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:29:42Z drmeister: igam: You make a very good point - thank you. I only have two files here but in the general case I don't want files with the same name to end up in the same directory and have one clobber the other. 2016-05-19T15:30:02Z agspathis quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 2016-05-19T15:30:03Z drmeister: And thank goodness for ensure-directories-exist. 2016-05-19T15:30:21Z igam: drmeister: (merge-pathnames #P"TMP:;" #p"SYS:MODULES;CLASP-ANALYZER;CLASP-ANALYZER.LSP") ; seems to work too. 2016-05-19T15:30:27Z igam: (Tried in ccl). 2016-05-19T15:31:00Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:31:01Z drmeister: Right - in ECL that gives: 2016-05-19T15:31:03Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kDx7fOfa/ 2016-05-19T15:31:18Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:31:24Z drmeister: Ok - all is right in the (twisted) world of CL pathnames. 2016-05-19T15:31:29Z igam: Yes. It's good. 2016-05-19T15:32:04Z drmeister: Still, I'd rather have them than have to do this with posix. 2016-05-19T15:32:33Z rpg_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:32:37Z drmeister: It's like banging rocks together. 2016-05-19T15:34:17Z rpg quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:34:23Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:34:32Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-19T15:34:53Z rpg_ is now known as rpg 2016-05-19T15:38:55Z dim: wow you're using logical pathnames?! 2016-05-19T15:39:27Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:40:26Z fe[nl]ix: dim: he's using them correctly 2016-05-19T15:40:42Z fe[nl]ix: i.e. as long as you don't expect portability, it's workable 2016-05-19T15:41:07Z dim: I failed to understand anything about them :/ 2016-05-19T15:41:35Z drmeister: So pulling it all together - if I want a quick-and-not-so-dirty cache for FASL's: (ensure-directories-exist (translate-logical-pathname (make-pathname :host "tmp" :defaults (compile-file-pathname #P"sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp")))) 2016-05-19T15:41:51Z fe[nl]ix: dim: they're a sort of templates 2016-05-19T15:42:18Z Xach: dim: CLTL2 has a pretty good section on them. more exposition than the spec itself. 2016-05-19T15:42:38Z drmeister: I can use that with the :output-file of COMPILE-FILE 2016-05-19T15:42:59Z drmeister: So all together: 2016-05-19T15:43:37Z drmeister: (load (compile-file #P"sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp" :output-file (ensure-directories-exist (translate-logical-pathname (make-pathname :host "tmp" :defaults (compile-file-pathname #P"sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;clasp-analyzer.lsp")))))) 2016-05-19T15:44:00Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:44:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:44:25Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:45:18Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:48:12Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:48:15Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-19T15:48:23Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:48:33Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-05-19T15:48:58Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:49:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:49:17Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:49:33Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-19T15:49:44Z fe[nl]ix: hi beach 2016-05-19T15:49:54Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:50:18Z pepton3 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:50:22Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:50:47Z araujo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T15:51:10Z dim: Xach: I'm not sure I want to know more about them ;-) 2016-05-19T15:51:39Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:51:43Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:51:47Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:52:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:52:28Z fugue0 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:53:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:53:18Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:55:32Z moore33: beach: Hi. 2016-05-19T15:56:20Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-19T15:58:58Z andrei-n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T15:59:14Z jasom: hello beach 2016-05-19T15:59:33Z beach: jasom: You never answered my question from around 12 hours ago. :) 2016-05-19T15:59:45Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T15:59:48Z jasom: beach: My wife needed me for something, let me read the scrollback... 2016-05-19T16:00:02Z beach: I'll just post it again... 2016-05-19T16:00:06Z jasom: beach: oh, I appreciate the offer. 2016-05-19T16:00:16Z beach: Ah, you found it. 2016-05-19T16:00:18Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T16:00:26Z jasom: beach: I'm actually getting somewhat better at those sorts of things. 2016-05-19T16:02:02Z beach: jasom: Also, I don't think of my offer as a pure favor. I think of it as potential increased total Common Lisp productivity, which I personally think it is important. But if you are getting better at it, then that's fine. 2016-05-19T16:03:05Z beach: jasom: So let me know if there is anything I can do, like review some design or some documentation, etc. 2016-05-19T16:03:15Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T16:03:53Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:04:14Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:04:16Z jasom: part of it is that so far my lisp knowledge and amount of free time have been inversely correlated. I hope as kids get older that changes. 2016-05-19T16:04:30Z isoraqathedh: The latest Roswell seems to have failed building, and therefore I can't get the binary. 2016-05-19T16:04:38Z beach: jasom: I understand. 2016-05-19T16:05:33Z jasom: oh, in case I missed it, was there discussion in here about this? http://lisp-univ-etc.blogspot.com/2016/05/improving-lisp-ux-one-form-at-time.html 2016-05-19T16:06:36Z jasom: as someone who has been using lisp for a long time, it doesn't fix many problems that I have, but I could see how something like that could make the language more approachable *if* it were adopted widely enough for new lispers to find resources (e.g. tutorials) that are based upon it. 2016-05-19T16:07:21Z jasom: the downside, of course, is that if you make any radical changes to lisp, it makes every single tutorial and sample code that already exists much less useful 2016-05-19T16:08:39Z dwchandler: jasom: I saw that. The nice part is it seems to be on top of CL, so existing stuff should work, no? 2016-05-19T16:08:46Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:09:07Z jasom: dwchandler: yes, I don't think it shadows anything in CL currently, though it looks like Vsevolod has considered doing so 2016-05-19T16:10:43Z jasom: In the article he says "...for RUTILS I've adopted a religious principle to retain full backward compatibility and don't alter anything from the standard. This is a critical point: not redefining CL, but building on top of it and extending it!" but also mentions a temptation to steal the name "map" 2016-05-19T16:11:05Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:11:42Z dwchandler: Well, "map" is a big temptation. BUt hopefully the principles will win out 2016-05-19T16:12:08Z dwchandler: Because otherwise, it's just another lisp dialect that bears some resemblance to CL 2016-05-19T16:12:31Z jasom: one think I think I'll bring up with him is that it might make more sense for (? obj 'foo) where obj is an object of class "bar" might make the most sense to expand to (bar-foo obj) rather than (slot-value obj 'foo) 2016-05-19T16:13:13Z jasom: that particular construct is still in the experimental part of rutils 2016-05-19T16:13:40Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:15:55Z jasom: obviously picking the right package is still important so it would actually expand to something more like `(,(intern "BAR-FOO" (symbol-package (class-name (class-of obj)))) obj), with appropriate bindings to prevent multiple evaluations of obj 2016-05-19T16:16:00Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:18:19Z beach: I think there is a widespread idea that Common Lisp would be more widely used if issues such as there were to be addressed. I just don't think that is the case. 2016-05-19T16:18:20Z jasom: hmm, now that I think about it, that might have some problems with inheritance... perhaps the original is better 2016-05-19T16:18:50Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:19:15Z xenthree3 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:19:16Z xenthree3 left #lisp 2016-05-19T16:19:17Z jasom: beach: I'm on the fence about this. I think that if you snapped your fingers and made lisp almost identical to e.g. ruby then there would still be "eeww lisp, that's old! Parentheses! Emacs!" 2016-05-19T16:19:40Z beach: Exactly. 2016-05-19T16:19:48Z jasom: on the other hand, anything that lowers friction for learning lisp can only have a non net-negative effect on adoption. 2016-05-19T16:20:28Z beach: Maybe, but I am skeptical. 2016-05-19T16:20:30Z drmeister: If I provide :output-file to COMPILE-FILE-PATHNAME - it should just return that - correct? 2016-05-19T16:20:40Z drmeister: clhs compile-file-pathname 2016-05-19T16:20:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp__1.htm 2016-05-19T16:20:54Z jasom: well, I didn't say positive. It's always possible that small to medium changes still won't have any measurable positive effect, and so the effort is wasted. 2016-05-19T16:20:54Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:21:09Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:21:12Z moore33: jasom: One of the things I like about Common Lisp, in contrast to older Lisps, attempts at OO add-ons, etc., is that there are very few "magic" names ginned up from other names or significant by name only. LOOP is the one exception that comes to mind. 2016-05-19T16:21:53Z drmeister: The CLHS doesn't say what happens when :output-file is passed - but what else could it do? 2016-05-19T16:22:14Z beach: moore33: Can you give examples in other Lisps? 2016-05-19T16:22:18Z jasom: beach: I feel like the only loss for rutils and similar projects is opportunity cost, and it's their time to spend. 2016-05-19T16:22:33Z jasom: moore33: what do you mean "significant by name only" 2016-05-19T16:22:50Z jasom: to mee LOOP is the obvious name for an iteration construct, particularly as DO was already taken 2016-05-19T16:23:24Z moore33: jasom: The LOOP keyword names are significant; package doesn't matter. 2016-05-19T16:23:24Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T16:23:35Z jasom: moore33: ah 2016-05-19T16:23:40Z jasom: I see what you mean 2016-05-19T16:23:48Z jasom: the symbol-name is not important, only the symbol 2016-05-19T16:23:54Z jasom: I agree that this is a strength of common lisp 2016-05-19T16:24:32Z moore33: moore33: I'm really thinking of various object systems that were touted before CLOS won out. 2016-05-19T16:24:46Z moore33: Oh shit, there's defstruct... better go look at that again. 2016-05-19T16:24:51Z beach: jasom: I agree that people are free to spend their time in whatever way they see fit. I am just trying to moderate too much enthusiasm that such efforts will actually make a difference in Common Lisp adoption. 2016-05-19T16:24:53Z jasom: so perhaps (? obj #'bar-foo) 2016-05-19T16:25:54Z jasom: which by itself is silly, but would make sense with (? obj #'bar-foo 3 #'baz-quux) as the equivalent of obj.bar-foo[3].baz-quux 2016-05-19T16:26:06Z moore33: beach: People tried to copy defstruct's behavior. Yuck. 2016-05-19T16:27:32Z dwchandler: Some people will not like lisp, no matter what. But there's the popularity of clojure to remember. If people need to stay in the jvm but don't like java they can choose scala, but clojure is a popular choice. 2016-05-19T16:27:54Z beach: Good point. 2016-05-19T16:28:08Z jasom: A lot of positive reaction to clojure was about its use of STM though, and it's tough to tease that part out 2016-05-19T16:28:31Z moore33: Apparently people tolerate a lot of pain to use clojure. 2016-05-19T16:28:33Z jasom: clojure is highly opinionated about the right way to do shared state in the presence of multiple threads, and it's a fairly powerful choice on its own 2016-05-19T16:28:38Z dwchandler: Yes and no. There are other things like that, that clojure has done 2016-05-19T16:28:46Z dwchandler: Right. 2016-05-19T16:29:01Z jackdaniel: I think it's the community (on the CL side), what might be a bit discouraging – it's mature and there are many knowledgeble people – no many fellow newbies to stick to, not much newbie material etc (fresh blod) – but from my subjective point of view it's getting better :) 2016-05-19T16:29:17Z dwchandler: Today's sensibility is to be opinionated and (mostly) in the right way 2016-05-19T16:29:22Z jasom: clojure *also* got a lot of scheme, lisp and dylan people who wanted to be able to use lisp, so it pulled from two opposite sides of "lisp hate/love" at the same time 2016-05-19T16:29:28Z beach: jackdaniel: I have been too busy today to read your notes. I'll do it tomorrow. 2016-05-19T16:29:40Z jackdaniel: beach: sure, no hurry 2016-05-19T16:31:00Z jasom: indeed, part of CL's old-school-ness is its lack of opinionation. I get the sense that around CLtL1's time that was seen as a positive when compared to e.g. COBOL and other opinionated 3GLs 2016-05-19T16:31:41Z dwchandler: yeah 2016-05-19T16:32:02Z jasom: similarly C won out over more opinionated competition from the Wirth family 2016-05-19T16:32:58Z jasom wonders now if the democritization of tools has something to do with it 2016-05-19T16:33:10Z dwchandler: I don't know much about clojure, but I'd guess it also has infrastructure that people expect these days, and a batteries included mentality 2016-05-19T16:33:23Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T16:33:30Z dongz: jvm > java 2016-05-19T16:33:35Z jasom: If your first experience programming in C was at a company where more senior programmers are reviewing your code, you learn a single opinion on the right way to write C code 2016-05-19T16:33:43Z moore33: jasom: What do you mean by "lack of opinionation?" 2016-05-19T16:34:10Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:34:44Z jasom: moore33: Whether or not the language, including the official docs for it, has clear ideas about the Right Way. Think Perl vs. Python as a ca. 2000 example 2016-05-19T16:35:50Z jasom: If you don't mind the anthropomorphism, Clojure as a language, has a lot of opinions about the right way to do multithreading, for example. 2016-05-19T16:36:32Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:37:11Z moore33: jasom: Hmm, I think there were strong opinions about the Right Way. They not have been very cohesive at the beginning, but as CLtL1 turned into ANSI CL, I think there was definitely a strong direction. 2016-05-19T16:37:33Z jasom: or said less anthropomorphically, you can learn a lot about what Rich Hickey thinks is the right way to program by learning clojure. I think you learn a lot less about what e.g. Pitman or McCarthy or Edwards thinks about that from Common Lisp. 2016-05-19T16:38:02Z beach: Interesting. I never thought about it in this way. 2016-05-19T16:38:16Z jasom: there are some exceptions, but even those are more "stress flexibility" over "my way or the highway" (e.g. CLOS) 2016-05-19T16:38:28Z moore33: jasom: That is an interesting point.... I would make one counter-argument, which is CLOS :) 2016-05-19T16:38:40Z jasom: haha, we both thought of the same example 2016-05-19T16:39:05Z beach: For Common Lisp the opinions are supplied here in #lisp. :) 2016-05-19T16:39:26Z moore33: jasom: Which, even though it was a compromise between Flavors and LOOPS, turned out to have very original, strong opinions about how things should be done. 2016-05-19T16:41:18Z jasom: The condition system is another example of this, but again it is insanely flexible. 2016-05-19T16:42:04Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:42:15Z nate_c joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:42:16Z jasom: even the name "condition" rather than "exception" or "error" is both opinionated, and opinionated about there being more than one way to do things. It's not just for errors or exceptional situations, but can be used for any condition that you so desire. 2016-05-19T16:42:59Z jasom: I'ts strongly based on NES, but picked a name without the term "error" in it. 2016-05-19T16:45:40Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:45:48Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T16:46:00Z jasom: speaking of the Right Way and NES, what ever happenned to Moon's PLOT? 2016-05-19T16:46:38Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:47:09Z mishoo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:47:21Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:47:25Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2016-05-19T16:48:51Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-19T16:49:27Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:52:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:54:48Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T16:56:46Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:56:53Z araujo quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-19T16:57:23Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:58:36Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T16:59:01Z Xach uses ubiquitous for the first time, is pleased 2016-05-19T16:59:36Z d4ryus quit (Killed (hitchcock.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-19T16:59:36Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-05-19T16:59:57Z jasom: I got a dirty look once when someone asked me what "ubiquitous" meant and without thinking I said "omnipresent" 2016-05-19T17:00:41Z akkad: how do you append to an existing file with cl-store? trying to do incremental dumping of a queue. 2016-05-19T17:01:38Z jasom: akkad: I think you can store multiple objects to a stream 2016-05-19T17:02:06Z pascal` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:03:27Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:03:37Z ggole quit 2016-05-19T17:04:23Z jasom: akkad: indeed you can, I just tried 2016-05-19T17:05:01Z jasom: example: (with-open-file (f "foo.clstore" :direction :output :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) (store 1 f) (store 2 f)) 2016-05-19T17:05:26Z jasom: akkad: oh, for an existing file use :if-exists :append in the open 2016-05-19T17:10:10Z akkad: perfect. thanks man 2016-05-19T17:10:33Z akkad: Exception occurred while executing foreign code. ccl never seems to say what the foreign code is. 2016-05-19T17:10:46Z jasom: akkad: backtrace? 2016-05-19T17:10:50Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:11:25Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:11:32Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: hahaha 2016-05-19T17:11:36Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/ac8548c85477aa1102f27c2c891a4b3f 2016-05-19T17:11:59Z akkad: only happens on this xeon laptop 2016-05-19T17:15:26Z jasom: fe[nl]ix: which thing made you laugh? 2016-05-19T17:16:02Z jasom: akkad: try typing in (B) 2016-05-19T17:16:17Z akkad: I did, you should see it there 2016-05-19T17:16:30Z jasom: oh I see it now. Bogus stack frame; it is completely hosed 2016-05-19T17:16:54Z akkad: right. sigsev. tried gdb with no luck. garbarge 2016-05-19T17:17:21Z jasom: well when post-mortem debugging doesn't work you have to resort to logging what you are doing to narrow down where it is 2016-05-19T17:18:02Z akkad: gdb https://gist.github.com/bd1764d4b409c2056a3075f0f266919f 2016-05-19T17:18:09Z jasom: I think slime has a trace all symbols in package that can be useful 2016-05-19T17:18:26Z akkad: yeah. I removed all the ffi stuff. can't repo on any other hardware. 2016-05-19T17:18:28Z akkad: thanks 2016-05-19T17:18:37Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:18:57Z jasom: akkad: you will want to use gdb to attach to an already running one. I bet a sigsegv is normal operation on ccl (it is on many GC'd languages) 2016-05-19T17:19:28Z akkad: (declare (optimize (safety 3) (speed 0) (debug 3))) should help I thought. 2016-05-19T17:19:39Z akkad: k 2016-05-19T17:24:01Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:24:38Z akkad: 0x000000000041298a in _SPmisc_alloc () at ../x86-spentry64.s:3037 2016-05-19T17:28:01Z jasom: akkad: is that after you're in the kernel debugger? 2016-05-19T17:30:34Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: ubiquitous 2016-05-19T17:30:46Z jasom: haha 2016-05-19T17:30:53Z fe[nl]ix: i.e. ubicated in omnia loci, of course 2016-05-19T17:31:19Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:33:31Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:34:17Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:35:43Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:35:44Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-05-19T17:37:15Z pascal` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:37:45Z didi: Is there something in FORMAT to format universal time? So I could write something like (format nil "%m/%d/%Y" universal-time) => "05/04/2015" 2016-05-19T17:38:07Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:39:19Z jasom: didi: I don't think so, but you could probably implement one with ~/ 2016-05-19T17:39:46Z didi: jasom: Thanks. Is ~/ a FORMAT directive? 2016-05-19T17:39:56Z jasom: didi: yes, it calls a function 2016-05-19T17:39:59Z jasom: clhs ~/ 2016-05-19T17:39:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_ced.htm 2016-05-19T17:40:07Z didi: jasom: Thank you. I will look into it. 2016-05-19T17:40:12Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:40:58Z jasom: I'm not sure the best way to implement that necessarily 2016-05-19T17:41:38Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:42:33Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T17:42:42Z oGMo: probably not any better than ~A and (format-time-somehow ...) heh 2016-05-19T17:42:49Z jasom: right 2016-05-19T17:43:08Z jasom: that might work better as otherwise you'd either have to abuse format parameters or use a lot of ~:* entries 2016-05-19T17:44:08Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:44:10Z jasom: you could use local-time's format-timestring 2016-05-19T17:44:15Z brfennpocock: didi: local-time has a nice mechanism for those things, FWIW. 2016-05-19T17:44:26Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:44:55Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:45:01Z didi: brfennpocock: Is it a package? 2016-05-19T17:45:31Z pjb: (multiple-value-bind (se mi ho da mo ye) (decode-universal-time (get-universal-time)) (format nil "~A/~A/~A" mo da ye)) #| --> "5/19/2016" |# 2016-05-19T17:46:13Z didi: pjb: Thanks. Tho I am first trying to rule out the format string. 2016-05-19T17:46:23Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:46:26Z pjb: (find-package :local-time) #| --> # |# 2016-05-19T17:46:30Z jasom: (format-timestring nil (universal-to-timestamp univiersal-time) '(:month "/" :day "/" :year)) 2016-05-19T17:46:46Z didi doesn't have `local-time' 2016-05-19T17:46:56Z brfennpocock: It's in Quicklisp. 2016-05-19T17:47:02Z didi: brfennpocock: oic 2016-05-19T17:47:07Z didi: brfennpocock: Thank you. 2016-05-19T17:47:32Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:47:37Z jasom: I agree tha ~/ is a bad fit here due to the unweildy nature of passing it parameters 2016-05-19T17:48:29Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:50:37Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:50:41Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T17:50:51Z jasom: I feel that it is an underused feature though. I waded through too much (format stream "~a x y ~a z" (escape baz) quux) when (format stream "~/ltk:esc/ x y ~a z" baz quux) moves the visibility of escaping to where you actually care about it in ltk. I found easily a half-dozen places where there were escaping bugs that would be obvious with the latter syntax. 2016-05-19T17:51:12Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:51:15Z pjb: jasom: why do you say "unweildy", you can pass parameters and arguments to ~/ just like to any other directive! 2016-05-19T17:51:23Z pjb: s/directive/format specifier/ 2016-05-19T17:51:24Z jackdaniel: Didier Verna demnostrated his format extension at the ELS 2016-05-19T17:51:38Z jackdaniel: which doesn't require full package qualifier for ~/ 2016-05-19T17:51:53Z jasom: pjb: how would you specify that you want the format m/d/y for ~/ 2016-05-19T17:51:54Z brfennpocock: I've done something akin to (defun cl-user::date (then &rest _) (format-timestring nil (universal-to-timestamp then) '(:year #\- :month #\- :day)) … (format nil "~/iso-date/" universal) ; only with :@ mods to select mm/dd/yyyy, dd/mm/yyyy, yyyy-mm-dd, or “Thursday, 19 May, 2016” formats. 2016-05-19T17:52:10Z jackdaniel: looked pretty nice and familiar given it's API (similar to named-readables and package manipulation) 2016-05-19T17:52:12Z jasom: jackdaniel: I'll have to see if that talk makes it online, I like the package qualifier for now. 2016-05-19T17:52:38Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-19T17:54:04Z pjb: you could use digits from 1 to indicate se mi ho da mo ye, and characters for separators: (format nil "~6,'-,5,'-,4,'T,3,':,2,':,1/ftime/" (universal-time)) --> 2016-05-19T19:54:33 2016-05-19T17:54:10Z mishoo_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T17:54:34Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:54:50Z isoraqathedh: ~// is really awkward to use. 2016-05-19T17:54:57Z jasom: pbj: hopefully we can all agree that this is slightly unweildy? 2016-05-19T17:55:06Z pjb: isoraqathedh: not more than ~F or ~A. 2016-05-19T17:55:08Z jackdaniel: isoraqathedh: that's what Didier's project hopes to fix I think 2016-05-19T17:55:37Z jackdaniel: regarding the format, cl-interpol (not 100% sure about the name) makes it easier to interpolate things in a string 2016-05-19T17:55:39Z pjb: jasom: it is not, this is a case where you want to specify a lot of things. Of course, if you're normal, you would do as brfennpocock said. 2016-05-19T17:55:44Z isoraqathedh: Is there a link? 2016-05-19T17:55:57Z pjb: isoraqathedh: chapter 22 in clhs. 2016-05-19T17:55:59Z isoraqathedh: I never really use ~f and ~a I just use without arguments. 2016-05-19T17:56:04Z isoraqathedh: No, Didier's project. 2016-05-19T17:56:46Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/didierverna/focus 2016-05-19T17:56:50Z jackdaniel: I believe this is this 2016-05-19T17:57:09Z pjb: https://github.com/didierverna/focus 2016-05-19T17:57:19Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T17:57:24Z jasom: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/misc.php#focus 2016-05-19T17:57:36Z didi quit (Quit: you can't /fire me, I /quit) 2016-05-19T17:57:45Z jackdaniel: I really admire that all Didier software has really good documentation (take clon for instance, or focus as it seems) 2016-05-19T17:58:32Z isoraqathedh: Hm, that's pretty good. 2016-05-19T17:58:57Z isoraqathedh: It seems like it reaches into ERROR's format too. 2016-05-19T17:59:05Z isoraqathedh: Actually, does it 2016-05-19T17:59:08Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-19T17:59:10Z jackdaniel: either way, I'm done with coding for today, going back to Ergo Proxy anime :P 2016-05-19T17:59:19Z jackdaniel: have a nice evening o/ 2016-05-19T17:59:58Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:04:50Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:06:14Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:06:55Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:06:59Z dwchandler: god kveld, jackdaniel 2016-05-19T18:08:18Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T18:10:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:10:19Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:11:36Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T18:12:31Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:16:47Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:17:07Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T18:20:16Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:20:24Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:22:21Z maucar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:22:33Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:24:17Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:24:56Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z Kooda quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z sulky_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z j_king quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z wooden_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z Kaisyu quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z copec quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z roscoe_tw quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:31Z ``Erik quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z jackc- quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z Princess17b29a quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z CrazyEddy quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z chrisbdaemon quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z mingus quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z Zackio quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z omilu quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:32Z rvchangue_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-19T18:26:38Z chrisbdaemon joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:38Z chrisbdaemon quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T18:26:38Z chrisbdaemon joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:38Z j_king joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:39Z mingus joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:40Z jackc- joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:41Z Kooda joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:44Z omilu joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:44Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:44Z roscoe_tw joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:47Z ``Erik joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:47Z Kaisyu joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:26:57Z Princess17b29a joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:27:00Z rvchangue_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:27:05Z sulky joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:29:05Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:29:42Z aluminumtubes quit (Quit: aluminumtubes) 2016-05-19T18:29:48Z wolf_mozart quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:30:13Z phoe_krk: Hey! 2016-05-19T18:30:54Z nydel quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:30:54Z copec joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:32:12Z nydel joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:32:13Z aluminumtubes joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:32:57Z dwchandler: hi, phoe_krk 2016-05-19T18:33:01Z wolf_mozart joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:33:15Z Zackio joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:33:22Z aluminumtubes left #lisp 2016-05-19T18:34:36Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T18:35:33Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:35:37Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:37:27Z peey quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-19T18:39:40Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:40:45Z unbalancedparen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:41:45Z phoe_krk: ,ohui 2016-05-19T18:41:51Z phoe_krk: wrong channel oops 2016-05-19T18:44:01Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:45:22Z varjag: *cough* 2016-05-19T18:45:24Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T18:47:36Z phoe_krk: *cough* 2016-05-19T18:47:36Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:47:44Z phoe_krk: So there was Lisp livecoding today. 2016-05-19T18:48:06Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:49:29Z dwchandler: yay? 2016-05-19T18:50:18Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:50:19Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:50:34Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:53:16Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T18:54:21Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-19T18:54:24Z phoe_krk: Yah. There's been this Science Festival in Cracow and I was entertaining people in the guess my number game. 2016-05-19T18:54:41Z phoe_krk: Where the only hints are whether your guess is smaller or larger than the goal. 2016-05-19T18:54:56Z phoe_krk: It's surprising how many people are surprised that the bisection method/binary search exist at all. 2016-05-19T18:55:08Z AeroNotix: jackdaniel: oh that focus looks cool 2016-05-19T18:55:21Z AeroNotix: always thought that should be built-in to the standard 2016-05-19T18:56:30Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:56:33Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:57:22Z phoe_krk: AeroNotix: I second this. Now we have MOP that is an extension to CLOS, FoCus that is an extension to FORMAT and SICL LOOP that is an extension/ITERATE that is a replacement for LOOP. 2016-05-19T18:57:26Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T18:57:56Z phoe_krk: So the three "big" parts/DSLs of Common Lisp the Language have their extensible versions. 2016-05-19T18:59:44Z AeroNotix: the DSL parts of Lisp look good on paper but when you actually try to use them in a moderately large program they kind of get in the way 2016-05-19T18:59:56Z AeroNotix: aside from maybe loop, but it's the denseness that is annoying there. 2016-05-19T19:00:18Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:00:33Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-19T19:00:58Z phoe_krk: FORMAT is not for writing huge chunks of code. 2016-05-19T19:01:11Z phoe_krk: At least, not in its basic form. 2016-05-19T19:01:20Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:01:32Z phoe_krk: Because the stuff you get greatly begins resembling regex, which is write-only code itself. 2016-05-19T19:02:24Z phoe_krk: LOOP is actually pretty amusing. I often end up writing whole programs or iterative subroutines in it. But again, I'm the ITERATE person, soooo. 2016-05-19T19:03:02Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T19:03:20Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:03:24Z python476 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:04:31Z phoe_krk: It's a proper replacement for the while/dowhile/for/foreach of many languages. 2016-05-19T19:07:01Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:08:03Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:09:15Z zotherstupidguy joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:14:33Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:16:14Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:16:34Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:16:43Z Valheru8 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:17:07Z rpg quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-19T19:17:39Z fouric quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 2016-05-19T19:17:53Z fouric joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:19:03Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:19:21Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:20:42Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:21:29Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:22:38Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:23:04Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:23:26Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:24:04Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:28:29Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:29:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:30:53Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:33:28Z nowhere_man joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:36:14Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:39:43Z python476 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:41:17Z angavrilov quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:41:21Z eli` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:41:45Z gdmalet_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T19:43:03Z eli` is now known as eli 2016-05-19T19:43:03Z eli quit (Changing host) 2016-05-19T19:43:03Z eli joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:43:25Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:45:16Z dongz left #lisp 2016-05-19T19:45:22Z des_consolado joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:49:12Z karswell quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T19:49:58Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:50:42Z warweasle quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2016-05-19T19:53:10Z fourier: phoe_krk: yes, I've never used loop, but started with small things (loop while ...), and actually started to like it. However I'm missing a good article for dummies (like "The Idiot's guide for packages") covering all the features :/ 2016-05-19T19:54:33Z fe[nl]ix: fourier: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html and http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 2016-05-19T19:54:43Z jackdaniel: fourier: I think that even the standard doesn't settle what all the features are (in a definite way :) 2016-05-19T19:56:34Z fourier: fe[nl]ix: I'm talking about loop, not packages :) 2016-05-19T19:56:53Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T19:56:58Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:57:47Z fe[nl]ix: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html 2016-05-19T19:58:41Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-19T19:59:53Z fourier: fe[nl]ix: need to read it again (last time I read it in 2009)... 2016-05-19T20:01:09Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:03:04Z fourier: the example in conditional execution section is insane 2016-05-19T20:03:21Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:03:25Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:04:12Z akkad: fourier: are you THE Jaime Fourier? 2016-05-19T20:05:10Z fourier: akkad: no no no 2016-05-19T20:05:33Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:05:48Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:06:18Z phoe_krk: fourier: Loop for Black Belts from PCL 2016-05-19T20:08:29Z edgar-rft: fourier: the original loop manual from Jon L White is here: 2016-05-19T20:08:56Z fourier: edgar-rft: oh good, this is interesting 2016-05-19T20:08:57Z freehck quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:10:06Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:10:50Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-19T20:13:10Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:13:34Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-19T20:13:53Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-05-19T20:13:59Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:14:33Z pepton3 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:15:38Z python476 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T20:16:15Z vaitel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T20:17:39Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:19:45Z pbgc quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T20:22:34Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:22:44Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:28:17Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:30:51Z bigwavejake joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:30:55Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T20:37:47Z _sjs quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T20:38:32Z bigwavejake left #lisp 2016-05-19T20:40:00Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:43:19Z Ven_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:46:34Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:47:20Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T20:48:55Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T20:49:09Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:49:21Z rm34D` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T20:49:29Z varjag: Xach: have a look if you can merge my pr to sharplispers 2016-05-19T20:50:00Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:50:44Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:52:08Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:52:58Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T20:55:45Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:55:55Z trasto quit 2016-05-19T20:56:33Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:57:03Z tsuru quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T20:59:43Z Ven_ quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-19T21:04:15Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:04:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:05:45Z XachX_: varjag: hmm. Didn't get it. 2016-05-19T21:06:05Z fe[nl]ix: cl-jpeg 2016-05-19T21:07:14Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T21:07:59Z brfennpocock quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T21:11:22Z shka quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T21:13:28Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:14:01Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:16:45Z monod joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:16:58Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:17:33Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T21:18:49Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-19T21:20:21Z varjag: Xach: https://github.com/sharplispers/cl-jpeg/pull/11 2016-05-19T21:22:14Z Neet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:22:19Z unbalancedparen quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:24:14Z Neet joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:26:01Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:28:53Z tsuru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:33:37Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:34:24Z fe[nl]ix: Xach: I made new releases for split-sequence and parse-number 2016-05-19T21:35:01Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: do you have a moment to answer a question about 5AM? 2016-05-19T21:36:15Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:36:21Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:37:00Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-19T21:38:12Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T21:38:58Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: you mean about https://github.com/sionescu/fiveam/commit/14f3ee08b6b3da03351bd8cef7b4158a5241f8df ? 2016-05-19T21:39:40Z rpg: Actually, in general about the choice to eagerly compile the tests. You say that this is fine because ASDF is good. But what about people using 5AM interactively, in a session, and not wrapping it in ASDF:TEST-OP? 2016-05-19T21:41:21Z fe[nl]ix: I prefer to be safe 2016-05-19T21:41:53Z rpg: I don't get it: isn't compiling eagerly strictly less safe than evaluating at test-time? 2016-05-19T21:41:57Z fe[nl]ix: the choice to compile the tests eagerly is so that tests that expicitly or implicitly call cl:compile don't deadlock 2016-05-19T21:42:17Z rpg: hmmmm...... 2016-05-19T21:42:27Z fe[nl]ix: it's not nice if you're using it interactively, I recognize that 2016-05-19T21:42:30Z rpg: I guess I usually don't write tests that call cl:compile. 2016-05-19T21:42:51Z fe[nl]ix: some do, explicitly 2016-05-19T21:42:52Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: That's why I was suggesting that you allow people like me a single point of control to change this behavior. 2016-05-19T21:43:07Z fe[nl]ix: implicitly, it's usually MOP stuff that cause that 2016-05-19T21:43:09Z ghsk quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T21:43:23Z fe[nl]ix: rpg: that's why I just committed that 2016-05-19T21:43:29Z rpg: Oh, thanks! 2016-05-19T21:43:47Z rpg: I'm wondering if there are different trade-offs for different Lisp implementations, too. 2016-05-19T21:44:32Z rpg: E.g., compile-to-eval versus interpreted mode. 2016-05-19T21:44:41Z fe[nl]ix: possibly, but I'd rather not have a different default based on the CL 2016-05-19T21:45:08Z fe[nl]ix: this way it's reasonably simple 2016-05-19T21:45:43Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: I just mention this because we specifically abandoned the NST test library because its eager-compile policy was a net lose on many of our systems. 2016-05-19T21:46:01Z fe[nl]ix: ASDF could have a wrapper facility, though 2016-05-19T21:46:16Z rpg: (typically we ended up running the tests once per compilation, which was a net lose versus just evaling the forms) 2016-05-19T21:46:34Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T21:46:35Z rpg: Sometimes a huge net lose. 2016-05-19T21:46:46Z fe[nl]ix: so you install a hook after the loading of fiveam to setf that knob to :run-time 2016-05-19T21:46:53Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:47:06Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:47:51Z rpg: fe[nl]ix: Yes, or I just wrap a setting of that knob around the definition of the test system... thanks for doing that! 2016-05-19T21:48:07Z fe[nl]ix: right, that too 2016-05-19T21:48:16Z rpg: really appreciate the change. 2016-05-19T21:48:35Z fe[nl]ix: :) 2016-05-19T21:48:52Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:48:54Z rpg: we have a slightly forked version. I'll try to see if there are any mods that can usefully be passed along. 2016-05-19T21:53:14Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-19T21:53:21Z eudoxia quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T21:53:22Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T22:00:27Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-19T22:00:41Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:01:53Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:04:27Z Valheru8 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:05:22Z sondr3 quit (Quit: Quit) 2016-05-19T22:06:33Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:14:16Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T22:17:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:20:43Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:22:32Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:22:39Z monod quit (Quit: Sto andando via) 2016-05-19T22:26:24Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:29:13Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-19T22:39:01Z fUD joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:44:51Z Josh2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T22:45:05Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:46:00Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T22:48:22Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:49:40Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:50:54Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:51:42Z zotherstupidguy quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:53:04Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-19T22:54:27Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:56:02Z Nuri left #lisp 2016-05-19T22:58:00Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-19T22:59:17Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T22:59:28Z Nuri is now known as Nurii 2016-05-19T22:59:33Z Nurii is now known as Nuri 2016-05-19T22:59:37Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:06:33Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:06:39Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:07:27Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:08:56Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-19T23:09:25Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-19T23:10:05Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:11:31Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:11:39Z Jesin quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-19T23:12:08Z dvio_ quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-19T23:17:15Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:20:59Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:22:33Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:22:37Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:23:59Z ipmonger_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:27:06Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:29:39Z IPmonger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T23:29:39Z ipmonger_ is now known as ipmonger 2016-05-19T23:30:21Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:31:26Z Jesin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-19T23:32:39Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:33:27Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:34:12Z didi: Behold, my awesome `format-time' function https://paste.debian.net/hidden/c222c0c7 (with only three directives) 2016-05-19T23:34:27Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:34:57Z ipmonger_ joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:37:12Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:39:53Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-19T23:44:23Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-19T23:45:35Z Valheru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T23:55:28Z ipmonger quit (Quit: ipmonger) 2016-05-19T23:55:51Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-19T23:58:23Z ipmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:05:53Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:07:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:09:39Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:10:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:16:38Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:17:14Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T00:17:20Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:17:27Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:22:10Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:23:12Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:25:04Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:28:27Z mhsjlw: what are thoughts on publishing an old project on quicklisp (7 years old) should I ask for the maintainers permission? And what if I they don't respond? Thanks 2016-05-20T00:28:55Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2016-05-20T00:31:03Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:32:29Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:33:06Z Bike: uh, definitely ask for permission, and check the legality of it 2016-05-20T00:33:33Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:33:40Z mhsjlw: for sure, I know it's under the bsd license, I'll try and get in contact with the author 2016-05-20T00:38:30Z Xach: mhsjlw: is it a useful project? 2016-05-20T00:38:43Z Xach: didi: i can't view it 2016-05-20T00:42:04Z Xach: hmm 2016-05-20T00:42:10Z Xach: today's quicklisp report is not great 2016-05-20T00:42:24Z didi: Xach: Now with one more directive and a docstring: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/5e47caee 2016-05-20T00:42:31Z yrdz joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:43:05Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/format-time is getting so old 2016-05-20T00:43:26Z didi: Ah, silly Xach... 2016-05-20T00:44:08Z ipmonger quit (Quit: ipmonger) 2016-05-20T00:44:47Z mhsjlw: Xach it's an older project that you closed the issue for because it was missing a dep 2016-05-20T00:47:24Z DavidGuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T00:48:03Z Xach: mhsjlw: what is it? 2016-05-20T00:49:36Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:50:06Z mhsjlw: Xach: cl-pack 2016-05-20T00:50:16Z mhsjlw: I can't remember the issue number 2016-05-20T00:50:40Z mhsjlw: If you want, it was an easy fix I can fork it and fix it 2016-05-20T00:51:22Z Xach: mhsjlw: I would prefer you contact the author about becoming the new maintainer first. 2016-05-20T00:51:28Z Xach: Please let me know how it goes 2016-05-20T00:51:42Z mhsjlw: Xach: awesome, will do. 2016-05-20T00:51:56Z mhsjlw: nice to meet you by the way 2016-05-20T00:52:25Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:53:03Z vydd quit 2016-05-20T00:53:46Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:54:18Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-05-20T00:55:25Z Xach: Hi! 2016-05-20T00:55:27Z Xach: Good luck with it 2016-05-20T00:55:33Z Xach: Did you see the thing I wrote about forks and quicklisp? 2016-05-20T00:55:57Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T00:56:08Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-20T00:57:44Z mhsjlw: Xach: no I haven't read it, where can I find it? 2016-05-20T00:57:51Z Xach: http://blog.quicklisp.org/2013/10/forks-and-quicklisp.html 2016-05-20T00:59:45Z mhsjlw: ok cool, yeah that makes sense 2016-05-20T01:00:49Z mhsjlw: also, do you ever plan to have a npm style quicklisp? one where users can publish projects themselves with a versioning system? just curious if it gets tedious to add projects manually 2016-05-20T01:01:12Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:01:37Z Xach: I don't have any real interest in that. I think someone could adapt quicklisp to do it, though, but I'm not completely sure. 2016-05-20T01:01:53Z Xach: I do it the way I do it to cut down on compatibility problems. 2016-05-20T01:02:15Z mhsjlw: yeah... I didn't think of that 2016-05-20T01:02:52Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:02:55Z mhsjlw: maybe a bot connected to a build server that tests each project with each lisp dist so you don't have to ;) 2016-05-20T01:03:08Z Xach: I only test with sbcl. Another fellow tests the others. 2016-05-20T01:05:18Z RainBowww joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:05:55Z mhsjlw: ok an issue has been created to better understand the license of the project (the readme says mit and the .asd says bsd, lol!) and ask the maintainer if I may publish my fork 2016-05-20T01:06:17Z defaultxr quit (Quit: defaultxr) 2016-05-20T01:07:05Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:09:51Z defaultxr quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T01:10:00Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:12:28Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-20T01:13:19Z nate_c quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:14:58Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:15:10Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:19:24Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:20:20Z tsuru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:22:14Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:26:50Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:27:16Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:27:37Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:29:48Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T01:29:56Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T01:30:08Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:31:36Z marusich joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:32:15Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-05-20T01:33:07Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:38:29Z defaultxr quit (Quit: brb) 2016-05-20T01:42:01Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:51:44Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:55:00Z tax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T01:55:56Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:56:13Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T01:57:33Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-20T01:58:44Z RainBowww left #lisp 2016-05-20T01:59:19Z akkad hunts for the build status page for clsql 2016-05-20T01:59:58Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:00:07Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:00:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:02:11Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T02:02:33Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:05:54Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T02:06:48Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:07:00Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:07:09Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:07:31Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:07:42Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:10:22Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:18:43Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:19:30Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:19:53Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:25:56Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:26:39Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:27:04Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T02:27:22Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:32:01Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-20T02:37:11Z PuercoPop: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 ! 2016-05-20T02:38:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:38:33Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T02:38:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:39:53Z tax quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T02:40:03Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:40:20Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:43:46Z tax quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T02:46:52Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:49:03Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:50:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T02:51:54Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T02:52:19Z Khisanth quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T02:56:42Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T02:59:34Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:01:46Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T03:01:57Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:02:12Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:02:28Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-20T03:03:08Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach 2016-05-20T03:03:19Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:03:58Z tsuru joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:04:00Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-20T03:04:51Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:05:33Z Khisanth joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:06:10Z gabriel_laddel: beach: have you looked into franz's CLIM implementation that was posted earlier? 2016-05-20T03:06:21Z gabriel_laddel: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 << this one 2016-05-20T03:06:39Z beach: Have not looked at that. Hold on... 2016-05-20T03:07:04Z beach: They made it open source? 2016-05-20T03:07:26Z gabriel_laddel: It seems so. But idk how complete it is. 2016-05-20T03:07:36Z gabriel_laddel: And don't have the time to look into it right now. 2016-05-20T03:07:41Z gabriel_laddel: (unfortunately) 2016-05-20T03:07:47Z Valheru8 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:08:14Z Bike: the license keeps their copyright, so i mean, depends on your definition 2016-05-20T03:08:15Z beach: Wow, that is real good news if so. And it looks like it is. 2016-05-20T03:08:27Z groovy2shoes: it's the BSD license... 2016-05-20T03:08:30Z beach: Sure, looks BSD-ish. 2016-05-20T03:08:46Z Bike: oh. read too fast, whoops. 2016-05-20T03:08:55Z Valheru8 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T03:09:07Z groovy2shoes: the author always keeps their copyright, anyway, regardless of license, unless it's dedicated to the public domain (at least in the US) 2016-05-20T03:09:45Z beach: groovy2shoes: Sort of. It is possible to sign over your copyright. 2016-05-20T03:09:56Z groovy2shoes: oh, sure 2016-05-20T03:09:58Z beach: That is what most companies require from their employees. 2016-05-20T03:10:08Z groovy2shoes: but I mean, even if you GPL your code or whatever, you still keep your copyright 2016-05-20T03:10:19Z beach: Yes, yes, of course. 2016-05-20T03:10:20Z groovy2shoes: in fact, you have to keep your copyright in order for the license to work 2016-05-20T03:10:27Z beach: Indeed. 2016-05-20T03:10:28Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:10:42Z groovy2shoes: but I'm not talking about selling the copyright or works for hire, I'm just talking about distribution 2016-05-20T03:10:57Z beach: Sure. 2016-05-20T03:11:20Z groovy2shoes: anyway, I wonder how much work it's going to take to get this running on other CLs 2016-05-20T03:11:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-20T03:11:59Z gabriel_laddel: Even having the source available to improve McCLIM is going to be a boon... 2016-05-20T03:12:06Z beach: gabriel_laddel: It is good news. It is also too bad it came after we did all this work on McCLIM. I am pretty sure McCLIM is a better implementation at this point. The Franz implementation may have fewer bugs, but I am almost sure that the McCLIM implementation of presentation types is better. 2016-05-20T03:12:52Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T03:14:56Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T03:20:35Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-20T03:20:47Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:20:48Z gabriel_laddel quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T03:20:50Z ipmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:20:58Z loke: beach: Does this franz clim work on SBCL? Or does it require allegro? 2016-05-20T03:21:08Z beach: I have no idea. 2016-05-20T03:21:37Z loke tests 2016-05-20T03:21:39Z beach: Too bad antifuchs is not around. He would know. 2016-05-20T03:21:56Z loke: The README says they have not tried to make it work 2016-05-20T03:21:59Z loke: let's see how far it gets 2016-05-20T03:24:16Z loke: Doesn't get anywhere. It fails severerly when building the C parts. I can't be bothered to look into it. 2016-05-20T03:24:28Z beach: Oh, I see. 2016-05-20T03:24:35Z beach: Didn't realize there was any C in there. 2016-05-20T03:25:25Z loke: Interesting... I was looking at some random code, and found this: 2016-05-20T03:25:28Z ahungry` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T03:26:00Z loke: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2/blob/master/clim/input-defs.lisp#L247 2016-05-20T03:26:12Z loke: also, look at the date ;-) 2016-05-20T03:28:26Z beach: It is old, sure. It has been maintained since, though. I know antifuchs was hired to maintain it after he had worked a lot on McCLIM. 2016-05-20T03:30:19Z joshe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:34:03Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T03:35:33Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:38:08Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:39:45Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:41:27Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:44:56Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:46:13Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:48:31Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:49:25Z drmeister: Hi beach - all is well with the latest sicl - no more bugs after those few last night. 2016-05-20T03:49:28Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:49:53Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:50:05Z DeadTrickster quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:50:10Z beach: drmeister: Excellent! 2016-05-20T03:50:18Z beach: Thanks again for the praise. 2016-05-20T03:50:32Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:50:55Z drmeister: Also, to compile and link cclasp using cclasp takes about 28 min. 2016-05-20T03:51:09Z beach: That's a significant improvement. 2016-05-20T03:51:19Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:51:30Z drmeister: Yeah - things are coming along. 2016-05-20T03:51:40Z beach: Great! 2016-05-20T03:51:51Z drmeister: I have a couple more improvements to lock in that will bring that down more. 2016-05-20T03:52:10Z drmeister: But I have to rejigger my build system to achieve them. 2016-05-20T03:52:45Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:52:57Z drmeister: I want to link C++ generated llvm-ir with CL generated llvm-ir - but it requires generating and manipulating the bitcode in more sophisticated ways. 2016-05-20T03:53:25Z beach: I understand from previous discussions in #clasp that doing so could be complicated, right? 2016-05-20T03:55:06Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T03:56:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T03:58:58Z drmeister: A little - because it has to be done in the build system. C++ needs to be compiled to bitcode and the bitcode needs to be linked into another bitcode file and then that needs to be available to Clasp to link with it's bitcode and then there's bitcode involved with some bitcode. 2016-05-20T03:59:05Z drmeister: bitcode bitcode bitcode 2016-05-20T03:59:15Z didi left #lisp 2016-05-20T03:59:16Z drmeister: (cough) 2016-05-20T03:59:21Z groovy2shoes: who 2016-05-20T03:59:23Z groovy2shoes: a 2016-05-20T03:59:33Z groovy2shoes: hot, bitcode on bitcode action 2016-05-20T03:59:42Z drmeister: Exactly. 2016-05-20T03:59:58Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:00:01Z drmeister: But you'd need to be pretty weird to pay to watch them. 2016-05-20T04:00:13Z drmeister: Slime compiles in 4 min. 2016-05-20T04:00:33Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T04:00:37Z drmeister: ASDF compiles in 3 min. 2016-05-20T04:00:47Z drmeister: All in all - things are feeling peppier and snappier. 2016-05-20T04:00:59Z beach: This discussion again makes me think that it might be possible to produce bitcode from Common Lisp code using an existing LLVM interface for Common Lisp. 2016-05-20T04:01:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:01:29Z drmeister: One thing I'm missing though is my generic functions aren't showing up as anything but LAMBDA in backtraces. 2016-05-20T04:01:54Z groovy2shoes: aww 2016-05-20T04:02:47Z Bike: the cffi llvm bindings use the C bindings, which are unofficial and a bit haphazard. llvm only has official C++ bindings for some reason, and the best way to use those is probably a system like drmeister already has. 2016-05-20T04:03:03Z beach: I see. 2016-05-20T04:03:13Z drmeister: Then there is tying it into the runtime. 2016-05-20T04:03:30Z beach: Bike: OK, so what about the idea of producing bitcode files directly, without using LLVM? 2016-05-20T04:05:37Z Bike: the format's defined but it might be easier to just write out IR and run the encoder step externally? I'm not sure I understand what drmeister needs to do, though. 2016-05-20T04:06:06Z drmeister: I think it's about as much trouble as generating C code and feeding that to Clang to generate llvm. 2016-05-20T04:06:17Z Bike: i mean if we're talking about doing this to build clasp, i would have thought you could just compile ir files together regardless of the source. 2016-05-20T04:06:38Z drmeister: beach isn't asking for me - he thinks there are easier ways to get to an LLVM based Common Lisp than what I've done. 2016-05-20T04:07:07Z drmeister: And I'm not arguing, there may be - I don't see them. But I may be willfully blind. 2016-05-20T04:07:17Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:07:18Z beach: drmeister: That's only partly true. It would also be a way for clasp to bootstrap much faster. 2016-05-20T04:07:36Z beach: ... faster and better, in that the full Common Lisp language could be used from the beginning. 2016-05-20T04:07:58Z drmeister: Well, compiling cclasp from cclasp does that - that only takes 17 minutes. 2016-05-20T04:08:22Z drmeister: Linking takes another 11 minutes because linking involves a lot of compiling down to native code from bitcode. 2016-05-20T04:08:52Z drmeister: Bootstrapping from C++ source takes 2 hours. 2016-05-20T04:09:32Z drmeister: That's the part I hate doing - but I think I'll start building from an existing cclasp and keep the bootstrapping working for - well - bootstrapping. 2016-05-20T04:09:47Z drmeister: How long does it take to build SBCL on a system that doesn't have a running Common Lisp? 2016-05-20T04:10:03Z drmeister: You have to build clisp and then use it to compile SBCL. 2016-05-20T04:10:15Z JuanDaugherty: is that even possible? 2016-05-20T04:10:24Z Bike: you can't build sbcl without a lisp, no. 2016-05-20T04:10:27Z drmeister: JuanDaugherty: Is what even possible? 2016-05-20T04:10:29Z JuanDaugherty: (build sbcl without a lisp) 2016-05-20T04:11:04Z Bike: though i don't know if it builds in clisp at the moment. 2016-05-20T04:11:18Z drmeister: What does it build from? 2016-05-20T04:11:18Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:11:23Z drmeister: I get them mixed up all the time 2016-05-20T04:11:46Z Bike: you can build it in a couple implementations, i just don't know if clisp is one, since it's not being maintained and such... 2016-05-20T04:12:07Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/wO5Wfs7V/ 2016-05-20T04:12:26Z Bike: that seems a bit dated 2016-05-20T04:12:27Z drmeister: If not CLISP then CMU CL or OpenMCL 2016-05-20T04:12:34Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:12:40Z drmeister: Can you do it from ECL? 2016-05-20T04:13:04Z Bike: clozure is at version 1.something, and is called clozure instead of openmcl. 2016-05-20T04:13:30Z Bike: oh, my readme is more up to date 2016-05-20T04:13:43Z Bike: it says SBCL, CMUCL, CCL, recent ABCL, some old versions of clisp, and XCL work 2016-05-20T04:14:24Z Bike: ...as of 2005. well. 2016-05-20T04:14:35Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T04:14:39Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:15:02Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:15:59Z beach: I think it is highly artificial to consider the time it takes to build SBCL on a platform that does not have a Common Lisp implementation, just as it would be highly artificial to consider the time it takes to build GCC on a system that does not have a C compiler. 2016-05-20T04:16:21Z Bike: yeah. not sure i get the comparison, meister. 2016-05-20T04:17:09Z beach: Or, perhaps we should include in the build time for Clasp the time it takes to build a C++ compiler using only a C compiler. 2016-05-20T04:17:26Z drmeister: To me it makes sense to compare the time it takes to build Clasp from C++ to the time it takes to build SBCL from a CL that builds from C or C++. 2016-05-20T04:18:01Z Bike: well, then the comparison would be "how long does it take clisp to build from C", no? 2016-05-20T04:18:20Z drmeister: Yeah - I think that's a fair comparison. 2016-05-20T04:18:49Z drmeister: For instance, I will never get Clasp's bootstrapping time down to half an hour. It takes that long just to compile the C++ source. 2016-05-20T04:19:03Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:19:08Z CrazyEddy joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:19:58Z drmeister: I could reimplement Cleavir in C++ (shudder) - then it might take 45 min to build Clasp from C++ source - that's probably the lower limit. 2016-05-20T04:19:59Z beach: drmeister: But if you could use Common Lisp to produce bitcode files without using C++, you could move some C++ code to Common Lisp. 2016-05-20T04:20:34Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:21:06Z drmeister: I have that. I compile cclasp (a Common Lisp that produces bitcode files) with cclasp - 17 min. 2016-05-20T04:21:07Z beach: I am just speculating of course. I know you are not interested in doing that. 2016-05-20T04:21:27Z beach: OK, I'll be quiet. 2016-05-20T04:21:41Z drmeister: I understand what you are saying. 2016-05-20T04:21:49Z beach: Really? 2016-05-20T04:22:30Z beach: I think I am having a hard time expressing myself. 2016-05-20T04:22:37Z beach: I need to come up with a better way. 2016-05-20T04:23:18Z nicdev``` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:23:29Z eatonphi1 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:23:48Z drforr1 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:23:53Z eatonphil quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:23:58Z beach: Anyway, time for a break. 2016-05-20T04:24:23Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:24:41Z nicdev`` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:24:59Z drmeister: I bet if one person tried to bring LLVM into Common Lisp it would take about as long and be about as difficult. If they wanted to keep interop with C++. 2016-05-20T04:25:25Z drforr1 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:25:28Z drmeister: Anyway, clearly nobody is busting down the gates to do it - so here we are. 2016-05-20T04:26:58Z drmeister: Also, what am I saying - interop with C++ means you have to use C++ to build all of your objects. You have to match vtables and exceptions and memory layout. 2016-05-20T04:27:19Z JuanDaugherty: thought there was already a llvm sbcl thing 2016-05-20T04:27:21Z Bike: well, when i said cl-llvm was incomplete i didn't mean it couldn't be used. i was able to write out a hello world module after a day of work 2016-05-20T04:27:26Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:27:36Z burtons joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:28:13Z Bike: doesn't look like llvm.git has been touched in a few years, but who knows 2016-05-20T04:28:21Z JuanDaugherty: also presume reason sbcl needs a lisp to build is that at some level it's still a cmucl fork 2016-05-20T04:28:22Z Bike: er. like sbcl's llvm thing, i mean. 2016-05-20T04:28:27Z groovy2shoes: can CMUCL be built with anything other than CMUCL? 2016-05-20T04:28:40Z Bike: sbcl needs a lisp to build cos it's written in lisp 2016-05-20T04:29:41Z groovy2shoes: I know, and I think SBCL is a fork of CMUCL, right? the CMUCL page seems to indicate it requires CMUCL, but I'm not sure if another system might work 2016-05-20T04:29:47Z Bike: hm, and it looks like this llvmness is not an actual sbcl backend... 2016-05-20T04:30:20Z Bike: sbcl is a fork of cmucl, yes. 2016-05-20T04:34:12Z Zhivago: CMUCL's bootstrap process was one of the major reasons for the SBCL fork. 2016-05-20T04:36:06Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:38:28Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-20T04:43:52Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T04:44:31Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:46:10Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:48:57Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:49:15Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:49:56Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-20T04:51:50Z Xal quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-20T04:53:16Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T04:54:54Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:56:15Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:58:30Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T04:59:43Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:00:23Z beach clearly needs to work on his ability to explain his thoughts, given the misunderstandings his current ability is creating. 2016-05-20T05:00:33Z Bike: um, sorry. 2016-05-20T05:01:09Z beach: Why sorry? 2016-05-20T05:01:21Z beach: It is part of my job to learn how to explain things. 2016-05-20T05:03:06Z resttime joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:06:20Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:10:03Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:10:31Z beach: For example, somehow, what I said was interpreted as questioning the wisdom of interoperability between Common Lisp and C++. I obviously did not mean to suggest any such thing. 2016-05-20T05:11:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T05:12:09Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T05:13:00Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:15:16Z myk267 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:17:59Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:22:16Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:22:57Z beach: groovy2shoes: This paper explains a lot: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf 2016-05-20T05:32:26Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T05:32:42Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:33:34Z asc232 quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-20T05:34:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-20T05:38:25Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T05:41:40Z fewdea_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T05:45:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T05:46:26Z tsuru quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T05:46:35Z groovy2shoes: beach, thanks! :) 2016-05-20T05:51:51Z theos joined 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2016-05-20T06:32:09Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, awesome! 2016-05-20T06:35:49Z resttime quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T06:38:18Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-20T06:45:22Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T06:46:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:48:07Z Wasdaf joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:50:18Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:53:01Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: !!!!!!! 2016-05-20T06:54:33Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:55:01Z jackdaniel: not my achievement, but I'm happy :) 2016-05-20T06:56:43Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:57:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:57:48Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-20T06:57:48Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-20T06:58:21Z attila_lendvai quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T06:58:28Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-20T07:00:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T07:00:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T07:01:07Z emaczen` 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Josh2: Did you try turning it on and off again? 2016-05-20T11:44:42Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-20T11:46:07Z _death: knobo: (let ((thread (with-hierarchies-lock *watcher-thread*))) 2016-05-20T11:46:14Z _death: this is silly.. race condition 2016-05-20T11:47:00Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T11:48:53Z _death: also the next actions don't make sense to me.. join-thread after destroy-thread? 2016-05-20T11:50:01Z Josh2 quit (Quit: Josh2) 2016-05-20T11:50:11Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T11:53:16Z knobo: what does the with-hierarchies-lock do? 2016-05-20T11:55:35Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T11:58:24Z bbz_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T11:59:19Z ipmonger_ joined #lisp 2016-05-20T11:59:31Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2016-05-20T11:59:42Z bbz_ joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:00:23Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:00:23Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T12:01:46Z knobo: As I read from the documentation, terminate-thread makes the thread run abort-thread which is causing join-thread signal an error. That's why log4cl is calling bt:join-thread with ignore-errors. 2016-05-20T12:01:47Z narendra` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:02:08Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:02:09Z knobo: Because bt does not support the :default keyword as an argument. 2016-05-20T12:03:04Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:03:14Z _death: knobo: right, because the thread was aborted, join-thread signals an error (it can't return values that the thread was supposed to supply, the thread's result) 2016-05-20T12:03:39Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:05:05Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:05:36Z narendra` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T12:05:36Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T12:09:22Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:09:40Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:10:24Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:11:00Z knobo: bt::destroy-thread does not wait for the thread to end, though? 2016-05-20T12:11:01Z _death: to fix it you could avoid destroy-thread and instead have it gracefully exit 2016-05-20T12:11:18Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:11:20Z knobo: (it's a question) 2016-05-20T12:11:39Z knobo: _death: how do I do that? 2016-05-20T12:11:46Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:13:08Z _death: knobo: at the moment the watcher thread sleeps for some heartbeat time.. instead it could wait on a condition that signals it's time to die 2016-05-20T12:13:21Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:13:59Z knobo: A lock, maybe? 2016-05-20T12:14:09Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:14:57Z _death: a condition requires a lock 2016-05-20T12:18:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T12:18:14Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:18:14Z ipmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:18:44Z _death: (by "condition" I mean "condition variable"..) 2016-05-20T12:19:08Z Bourne joined 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2016-05-20T12:45:18Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:45:40Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:47:25Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:47:25Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-20T12:49:44Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:49:56Z ThePhoeron quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:51:36Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:52:48Z flip214: is there something like EQUAL that takes more than 2 arguments? 2016-05-20T12:54:10Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:54:33Z peterh joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:56:38Z knobo: flip214: (reduce 'equal list) 2016-05-20T12:56:40Z _death: no, but it's easy to write 2016-05-20T12:56:46Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T12:56:54Z _death: knobo: not really 2016-05-20T12:56:57Z jackdaniel: knobo: it won't work, equal returns T 2016-05-20T12:57:00Z knobo: no, sorry 2016-05-20T12:57:26Z knobo: use every, maybe? 2016-05-20T12:57:28Z jackdaniel: but it wouldn't be non-conforming, if it would return one of the arguments – it usually returns T, but returns generalized boolean 2016-05-20T12:57:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T12:58:02Z flip214: _death: my local IRC backlog shows 35 instances of "easy to write" in this channel ;) 2016-05-20T12:58:07Z flip214: thanks 2016-05-20T12:58:12Z jackdaniel: (every #'equal '(1 1 1)) ; would call (equal 1) (equal 1) etc, so it shall fail 2016-05-20T12:58:19Z moore33: exercise for the reader 2016-05-20T12:58:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T12:58:48Z flip214: jackdaniel: (every #'equal list (cdr list)) 2016-05-20T12:59:15Z jackdaniel: flip214: it really is easy to write :D (defun equal* (a b) (when (equal a b) a)) ; (reduce #'equal* list) 2016-05-20T12:59:16Z guicho: smart. 2016-05-20T12:59:27Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T12:59:29Z rszeno: or some 2016-05-20T12:59:37Z jackdaniel: but yeah, your solution with cdr should work OK 2016-05-20T12:59:48Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:00:16Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:00:20Z moore33: (defun all-equal (&rest args) (every (lambda (x) (equal (car args) x)) (cdr args)) 2016-05-20T13:00:21Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:01:09Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:03:28Z knobo: (defun all-equal (arg) (not (find (first arg) arg :test-not 'equal))) 2016-05-20T13:03:47Z knobo: (defun all-equal (arg) (not (find (first arg) (rest arg) :test-not 'equal))) 2016-05-20T13:04:51Z knobo: or maybe I should test that first.. 2016-05-20T13:05:17Z knobo: yes, it works. 2016-05-20T13:05:59Z igam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T13:06:11Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:06:12Z knobo: The reduce approach has some performance issues. 2016-05-20T13:06:24Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:07:03Z guicho: equal is transitive, so knobo's answer is correct 2016-05-20T13:07:46Z guicho: but other than having the first one in the CPU cache, not much difference in terms of complexity 2016-05-20T13:07:59Z guicho: n-1 comparisons 2016-05-20T13:08:25Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:08:32Z guicho: (im talking about reduce/every approach)( 2016-05-20T13:08:37Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:09:13Z knobo: The reduce approach search the whole list, find stops at first mismatch 2016-05-20T13:09:13Z _death: the problem with find and semipredicate equal is that they don't work correctly for nil 2016-05-20T13:09:59Z guicho: yes, reduce does. well, every does not. 2016-05-20T13:10:35Z guicho: it was opposite :( reduce does not stop, while every does stop. 2016-05-20T13:12:15Z guicho: oh yes, (find nil XXX) always returns nil regardless of finding nil or not 2016-05-20T13:13:00Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T13:13:10Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:13:14Z moore33: So I like my solution :) 2016-05-20T13:13:49Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:14:35Z _death: moore33: that's close to what I would write.. although I'd separate the first element from the &rest 2016-05-20T13:14:51Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:15:19Z moore33: _death: Oh, right. 2016-05-20T13:15:20Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:15:29Z jackdaniel: I like the most (every #'equal list (cdr list)) 2016-05-20T13:15:59Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:17:11Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:17:33Z moore33: jackdaniel: Heh, it took me a while to figure out why yours works :) 2016-05-20T13:17:44Z knobo: (defun all-equal (arg) (not (position (first arg) (rest arg) :test-not 'equal))) 2016-05-20T13:18:19Z knobo: jackdaniel: yes that's a good one. 2016-05-20T13:18:26Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:19:36Z knobo: I have to remember my haskell when I code lisp. 2016-05-20T13:19:49Z jackdaniel: moore33: :) 2016-05-20T13:19:50Z knobo: It's to easy to do imperative coding in lisp. 2016-05-20T13:20:24Z Zhivago: That's because lisp is mostly imperative, but I suspect you mean procedural. 2016-05-20T13:20:33Z knobo: sorry, yes. 2016-05-20T13:20:53Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:21:37Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:23:12Z knobo: But one could do declarative programming in lisp too. 2016-05-20T13:23:51Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:24:39Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T13:24:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:27:39Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:28:20Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:28:55Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:30:12Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T13:33:11Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:33:21Z ThePhoeron quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T13:33:36Z ThePhoeron joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:34:16Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:35:13Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T13:35:56Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T13:36:03Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 240 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closed the connection) 2016-05-20T14:03:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:04:06Z habs joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:06:04Z rumbler31 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:06:38Z habs: Hi -- Why do I get the error "The value 'xxx' is not of type LIST." when I try to test this code on strings, even when I try to coerce the strings into char lists? http://sprunge.us/IfTj?cl 2016-05-20T14:08:43Z jdz: habs: you're not using the results of COERCE 2016-05-20T14:09:00Z jdz: also, don't use DEFUN to define a local function -- use FLET or LABELS instead 2016-05-20T14:11:22Z igam: How do you invoke it? 2016-05-20T14:11:24Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:11:39Z igam: Is it really the error message you see? What implementation? 2016-05-20T14:12:07Z igam: habs: CL is not scheme. 2016-05-20T14:12:33Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:13:11Z ryan_vw joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:13:20Z rszeno: igam, he know the difference 2016-05-20T14:13:36Z igam: rszeno: people who write defun inside defun don't. 2016-05-20T14:14:13Z rszeno is wrong channel? lisp v. sheme? 2016-05-20T14:14:21Z igam: It is also not emacs lisp (people who indent the then in the IF differently from the ELSE don't). Use M-x lisp-mode RET, not M-x emacs-lisp-mode. 2016-05-20T14:15:26Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:16:00Z jdz: habs: (defun distance (dna1 dna2) (loop for a across dna1 for b across dna2 counting (char/= a b))) 2016-05-20T14:16:20Z jdz: if i understand what the function is supposed to do correctly 2016-05-20T14:16:22Z didi: Is there a reverse operation of `parlis'? i.e. (rev-parlis '((a . b) (c . d))) => (a c) (b d) 2016-05-20T14:17:10Z gavilancomun joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:17:14Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:17:21Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:17:52Z didi: `pairlis', sorry. 2016-05-20T14:19:19Z igam: (defun rev-pairlis (alist) (mapcar (lambda (cons) (list (car cons) (cdr cons))) alist)) 2016-05-20T14:19:19Z igam: 2016-05-20T14:19:43Z igam: Sorry, not what you want. 2016-05-20T14:20:05Z igam: This is what you want: (defun rev-pairlis (alist) (values (mapcar (function car) alist) (mapcar (function cdr) alist))) 2016-05-20T14:20:31Z didi: igam: Thank you. So I gather that there is no built-in function for it? 2016-05-20T14:23:47Z gavilancomun quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-20T14:23:48Z didi: I wrote (loop for (l . y) in l collect l into ls collect y into ys finally (return (values ls ys))) but I am wondering if a built-in function exists. 2016-05-20T14:24:09Z gavilancomun joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:24:54Z rszeno left #lisp 2016-05-20T14:25:01Z _bogdanm_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T14:25:02Z gavilancomun quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T14:25:24Z gavilancomun joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:25:30Z jdz: didi: i'm not sure i've ever had a use for such a function 2016-05-20T14:25:48Z didi: jdz: :-) 2016-05-20T14:27:28Z jdz: didi: what's your use case? 2016-05-20T14:27:30Z gavilancomun quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T14:27:31Z vaitel joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:27:48Z gavilancomun joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:27:57Z didi: jdz: Printing data on a format that gnuplot will accept. 2016-05-20T14:28:54Z jdz: didi: are you sure you need a single function that gives you to lists instead of just doing (mapcar #'car list) and (mapcar #'cdr list) where needed? 2016-05-20T14:29:01Z jdz: s/to/two 2016-05-20T14:30:47Z didi: jdz: I might be able to do it using another way, but this is not important code. I am just trying to print it to octave. My LOOP works but I wondered about a possible built-in that I might be re-implementing. 2016-05-20T14:31:08Z didi: s/octave/gnuplot 2016-05-20T14:31:18Z didi: Sorry. Juggling many balls in here. 2016-05-20T14:32:24Z warweasle quit (Quit: brb) 2016-05-20T14:32:31Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:32:34Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:33:31Z jdz: yes, i was just wondering whether you definitely need (multiple-value-bind (x y) (your loop here) ...), and that (let ((x (mapcar #'car list)) (y (mapcar #'cdr list))) ...) would not be as good 2016-05-20T14:33:44Z didi: It might, it might. 2016-05-20T14:33:50Z igam: gnuplot doesn't take sexps AFAIK. So you can print directly from the a-list, you don't need to convert it into another kind of list. 2016-05-20T14:34:23Z igam: (dolist (ass a-list) (format t *gnuplot-format* (car ass) (cdr ass))) 2016-05-20T14:34:52Z didi: igam: I am doing a histogram, so I am printing first the labels and then the data. But I think we are entering the wrong territory in here. :-) 2016-05-20T14:35:28Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:35:55Z igam: Well, I'm just saying that while it's nice a functional to massage the sexps, in general you can avoid useless generation of intermediary forms. 2016-05-20T14:36:00Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:36:07Z didi: igam: Thanks. 2016-05-20T14:37:10Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:37:15Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:37:36Z moore33: didi: We like nothing better than to rewrite your programs for you :) 2016-05-20T14:37:48Z zeissoctopus joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:37:57Z didi: :-) 2016-05-20T14:38:38Z isoraqathedh: Hrm… Roswell seems to not be able to find my local-projects. 2016-05-20T14:38:54Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:39:13Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:39:15Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:40:33Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:41:13Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:41:49Z Nuri quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:43:02Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T14:45:03Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:46:50Z brfennpocock joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:47:09Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:49:11Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T14:49:20Z isoraqathedh: Wait, so apparently system-apropos can't find local-stuff. Never mind. 2016-05-20T14:51:08Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:55:33Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:55:57Z Munksgaard left #lisp 2016-05-20T14:56:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T14:57:42Z mejja joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:58:50Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:58:50Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-20T14:59:48Z munksgaa1d quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:00:09Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:00:14Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:01:00Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:02:42Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:03:19Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:03:41Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:03:46Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:06:11Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:06:49Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:08:03Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:11:45Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:14:23Z didi left #lisp 2016-05-20T15:16:54Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:17:27Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:17:47Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:17:56Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:19:00Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T15:21:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-20T15:21:38Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:22:09Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:27:07Z akkad: isoraqathedh: yeah 2016-05-20T15:27:59Z isoraqathedh: I just have to push ~/quicklisp/local-projects into its search path. 2016-05-20T15:28:17Z isoraqathedh: That said, I might just move everything over to Roswell's quicklisp impl. 2016-05-20T15:28:39Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:29:05Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-20T15:29:16Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:31:25Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:32:13Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:32:21Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2016-05-20T15:32:49Z jackdaniel: o/ 2016-05-20T15:33:17Z beach: jackdaniel: I think be basically agree on the list of stuff to do. 2016-05-20T15:33:37Z beach: jackdaniel: I'll write down the final version and send it to you. Is that OK? 2016-05-20T15:34:11Z jackdaniel: beach: sure 2016-05-20T15:34:26Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T15:34:33Z jackdaniel: did you think about the clx part? 2016-05-20T15:34:59Z beach: I don't think you should touch it at this point. Maybe later. 2016-05-20T15:35:23Z akkad: clx needs some love 2016-05-20T15:35:40Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-05-20T15:35:52Z akkad was of the view that clsql was well mantained 2016-05-20T15:36:20Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:36:26Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:41:11Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:42:27Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-20T15:42:29Z beach: Hmm. SMUG looks good (https://github.com/drewc/smug/) but I am going to be unable to resist rewriting it using classes and generic functions instead of first-class functions. 2016-05-20T15:42:33Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T15:44:51Z DeadTrickster joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:44:54Z pavelpenev quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T15:45:19Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:45:40Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:45:46Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:46:41Z jackdaniel: beach: and regarding the wiki, it is apparently cached on the internet archive – it contains a lot of useful information (part of which is probably outdated) 2016-05-20T15:47:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:47:48Z jackdaniel: https://web.archive.org/web/20130329210224/http://mcclim.cliki.net/index 2016-05-20T15:48:33Z beach: jackdaniel: Excellent! Even if it is outdated, it is better to start with what we have than with nothing. 2016-05-20T15:48:48Z jackdaniel: I share that opinion 2016-05-20T15:49:14Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:49:34Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:50:06Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:50:07Z mejja left #lisp 2016-05-20T15:50:32Z akkad hunts for a file backed queue 2016-05-20T15:52:19Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T15:53:33Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:54:24Z _death: akkad: I like to use redis for that kind of stuff 2016-05-20T15:55:27Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:55:44Z gavilancomun quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-20T15:55:59Z akkad: yeah, that could work. maybe wabbit 2016-05-20T15:56:12Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:57:09Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T15:57:39Z mhsjlw: Xach: the author was super awesome and accepted my PR to update to quicklisp ieee-floats and he asked that I create an issue to add it. I'll link the conversation in the issue 2016-05-20T15:57:43Z freehck quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T15:57:50Z yoonkn joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:57:54Z duallist joined #lisp 2016-05-20T15:58:14Z duallist quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-20T15:59:47Z XachX_: mhsjlw: woo! 2016-05-20T15:59:54Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T16:00:57Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:03:46Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T16:06:16Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:08:19Z mhsjlw: Xach: should I make a new issue? Or edit the old one? 2016-05-20T16:09:30Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T16:09:59Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:10:08Z XachX_: New one is good. 2016-05-20T16:11:47Z mhsjlw: sounds good 2016-05-20T16:13:14Z pepton3 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:16:10Z mhsjlw: Xach: the issue has been created. #1147 2016-05-20T16:16:22Z mhsjlw: thanks for your help! 2016-05-20T16:20:04Z Xach: Thanks 2016-05-20T16:22:44Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:25:04Z chris_l joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:25:07Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T16:25:18Z maucar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T16:26:02Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T16:26:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:29:35Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:29:59Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:31:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:32:32Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T16:35:30Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:37:19Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:38:42Z guicho quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T16:39:18Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:39:44Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:40:50Z igam: akkad: I have a file backed cache, but not a queue. Sorry. 2016-05-20T16:41:10Z whartung joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:42:01Z igam: akkad: well, I have in nasium-lse a fixed-length record file format that could be used to implement a queue, but it won't be general enough or lispy enough for you, I'm afraid. 2016-05-20T16:42:39Z igam: (records store only floating point, vectors or 2d arrays of floating-points or strings; no other type). 2016-05-20T16:44:14Z isoraqathedh: Is Roswell available in whatever package manager Mint uses? 2016-05-20T16:44:20Z isoraqathedh: I can't seem to find it using apt-get. 2016-05-20T16:44:44Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:46:19Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-20T16:47:52Z lisper29 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:48:18Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-20T16:50:09Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T16:50:32Z am55 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:50:52Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T16:50:58Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:52:12Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:53:18Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-20T16:55:22Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-20T16:55:56Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T16:56:21Z kus joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:56:57Z igam quit (Quit: going home; I'll ask later about http://sprunge.us/TEaS) 2016-05-20T16:57:52Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-20T16:59:24Z HeyFlash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T17:00:02Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:00:17Z d4ryus is now known as Guest11242 2016-05-20T17:00:17Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:00:29Z chris_l quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-20T17:01:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:02:00Z lisper29 quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-20T17:02:49Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T17:03:21Z Guest11242 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:03:49Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T17:04:40Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:05:27Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:05:59Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:10:12Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:13:11Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:13:32Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T17:13:48Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:15:14Z yoonkn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T17:16:07Z Wasdaf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:17:33Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:20:32Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T17:20:56Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:22:01Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-20T17:22:28Z mordocai: isoraqathedh: Looks like roswell probably only has a package in arch. 2016-05-20T17:22:58Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:23:11Z mordocai: isoraqathedh: You'll probably want to follow this https://github.com/roswell/roswell/wiki/1.-Installation 2016-05-20T17:23:16Z mordocai: Under building the source 2016-05-20T17:27:37Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T17:27:52Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:29:38Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-20T17:29:59Z briantrice joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:31:30Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:32:31Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:34:56Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:35:35Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:36:03Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T17:36:06Z briantrice quit (Quit: briantrice) 2016-05-20T17:37:25Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:38:17Z isoraqathedh: Right, now time to install all the deps… 2016-05-20T17:38:39Z isoraqathedh: (I say, but I can't really use this computer until I actually can get back to it.) 2016-05-20T17:39:33Z BitPuffin joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:40:05Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:40:28Z mordocai: Not very many deps at least 2016-05-20T17:40:37Z maxxcan joined #lisp 2016-05-20T17:40:45Z mordocai: Well, at least for me. 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Google translates its as drilling but I'm guessing you mean something else? 2016-05-20T20:07:14Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:08:07Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:09:42Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:12:22Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T20:16:50Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-20T20:23:09Z clique joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:26:34Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T20:26:53Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:27:30Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:28:42Z clique quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-20T20:32:03Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-20T20:32:19Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T20:33:01Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:33:06Z dwchandler: "delete me and use the other thing" maybe? 2016-05-20T20:33:41Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-20T20:33:58Z JuanDaugherty: padme's sister mayhap 2016-05-20T20:35:12Z dwchandler: no, she's leftpadme 2016-05-20T20:35:14Z PuercoPop: dwchandler: makes sense 2016-05-20T20:37:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:38:05Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:38:10Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-20T20:45:12Z eatonphi1 is now known as eatonphil 2016-05-20T20:46:10Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T20:48:43Z attila_lendvai: PuercoPop: yep, delme = delete me 2016-05-20T20:50:16Z attila_lendvai: oh my, I have an (optimize (speed 3)) in a function in a test framework... I hope it's there because it's a copy of something in a general util library... 2016-05-20T20:56:29Z zeissoctopus quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T20:57:14Z jerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-20T20:57:46Z kobain quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T21:00:10Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: fiasco removed it fortunately 2016-05-20T21:01:22Z attila_lendvai: I have a strict policy that kludges are ok in the codebase *as long as* they are marked as kludges, and they don't introduce silent failures distant either in time or in code-lines from the usage. 2016-05-20T21:03:48Z vaitel quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-20T21:04:12Z monod joined #lisp 2016-05-20T21:06:22Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T21:09:36Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-20T21:09:52Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-20T21:11:33Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-20T21:14:46Z yrk quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-20T21:15:29Z 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2016-05-20T21:31:23Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-20T21:31:26Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-20T21:32:19Z Baggers2 joined #lisp 2016-05-20T21:32:40Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-20T21:33:03Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-20T21:33:50Z mrottenkolber: How did I manage to get two EQUALP keys in a EQUALP hash table? https://gist.github.com/eugeneia/60b3eb4ca152ed347dd6ac8a63cc69fa 2016-05-20T21:35:32Z mrottenkolber: Bug in CCL? 2016-05-20T21:36:11Z mrottenkolber: Oh nevermind 2016-05-20T21:36:22Z prxq: what was it? 2016-05-20T21:36:37Z mrottenkolber: I modified the key obviously :D 2016-05-20T21:37:15Z _death: :( 2016-05-20T21:37:19Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T21:37:26Z prxq: i don't get it 2016-05-20T21:37:48Z _death: modified the key after insertion 2016-05-20T21:37:53Z mrottenkolber: yep 2016-05-20T21:38:24Z prxq: ah 2016-05-20T21:39:04Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-20T21:42:54Z tanuzzo 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#lisp 2016-05-21T01:24:47Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T01:24:50Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:30:30Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T01:31:24Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:31:33Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T01:32:30Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T01:36:19Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:36:21Z mrottenkolber: Hi 2016-05-21T01:36:56Z mrottenkolber: does anyone know which CL parser libraries are fast? 2016-05-21T01:38:35Z killmaster quit (Quit: Bye!) 2016-05-21T01:41:36Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:41:48Z killmaster joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:45:36Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:51:21Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T01:51:59Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:55:03Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T01:55:07Z edgar-rft: mrottenkolber: Largely depends on what you want to parse. The fastes are probably those who fail at the very first token. 2016-05-21T01:57:06Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-21T01:58:38Z quazimod1 quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-21T01:58:43Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-21T02:00:15Z mrottenkolber: edgar-rft: I use a rather simple s-expression grammar for testing purposes 2016-05-21T02:01:18Z edgar-rft: and what do you need as result? 2016-05-21T02:01:30Z mrottenkolber: an s-expression? 2016-05-21T02:01:47Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T02:01:58Z edgar-rft: s-expressions usually are parsed by READ 2016-05-21T02:02:15Z White_Flame: and there's no real distinction between parser & lexer 2016-05-21T02:02:31Z edgar-rft: transformations of s-expressions into other s-expressions are usually done by macros 2016-05-21T02:04:25Z mrottenkolber: Ok to rephrase the question: has anyone comparatively measured the efficiency of any of the libraries listed here: http://cliki.net/parser%20generator 2016-05-21T02:04:52Z mrottenkolber: or has a subjective feeling/experience 2016-05-21T02:05:13Z snits_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T02:05:30Z Bike: not that i'm aware of. it kind of depends on the language a lot, i guess, assuming you mean the parsing part rather than the generation part. 2016-05-21T02:10:02Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T02:15:31Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T02:19:02Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T02:23:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T02:24:59Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello ;-) 2016-05-21T02:25:12Z voidlily_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T02:26:39Z aries_liuxueyang: anyone knows how to solve this error? http://paste.lisp.org/display/316457 2016-05-21T02:26:53Z voidlily joined #lisp 2016-05-21T02:28:14Z jason_m: I had gotten into the habit of always creating accessor for my class's slots, and accessing them that way. I was aware of with-slots, but for whatever reason, never thought much of it. PCL makes a lot of use of with-slots, and it's really growing on me. I think it makes the code more compact. Are there style pointers for when to prefer using accessors functions vs with-slots or with-accessors? 2016-05-21T02:28:55Z Bike: aries_liuxueyang: longer backtraces would be nice 2016-05-21T02:29:22Z aries_liuxueyang: Bike: okay, wait a minute. 2016-05-21T02:30:16Z Bike: jason_m: i think that's minor enough to be a best judgement thing. 2016-05-21T02:32:43Z aries_liuxueyang: Bike: hello, this is the backtraces. http://paste.lisp.org/display/316457#1 2016-05-21T02:33:18Z jason_m: Bike: what about specifically with-slots vs with-accessors? i don't quite see the purpose of with-accessors. is it to allow you to tie into method combination? 2016-05-21T02:33:37Z Bike: to use the accessor methods, yeah. 2016-05-21T02:35:50Z jason_m: so that would only be important if you had some side effects in your accessor functions? 2016-05-21T02:36:16Z jason_m: if not, then just access the slots directly 2016-05-21T02:36:41Z Bike: not necessarily side effects, but yeah. 2016-05-21T02:36:45Z Bike: oh, and using accessors might be faster. 2016-05-21T02:36:51Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-21T02:37:17Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T02:37:43Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-21T02:37:55Z jason_m: faster? i would have guessed the other way around 2016-05-21T02:39:57Z Bike: aries_liuxueyang: is everything up to date? the offending line is probably here https://github.com/cl-plus-ssl/cl-plus-ssl/blob/master/src/ffi.lisp#L602 but trivial-garbage makes eq tables on ccl 2016-05-21T02:40:22Z Bike: jason_m: accessors can have individual caches and stuff 2016-05-21T02:40:54Z Bike: oh, :test -1, well that's definitely wrong... weird 2016-05-21T02:41:14Z jason_m: Bike: I see, that makes sense. thanks! 2016-05-21T02:41:40Z aries_liuxueyang: Bike: you mean that my ccl is not outdated? 2016-05-21T02:42:21Z Bike: no, i think ccl can still only make weak eq tables. 2016-05-21T02:42:54Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T02:43:46Z aries_liuxueyang: okay, I will switch to sbcl and have a try. 2016-05-21T02:43:55Z aries_liuxueyang: Bike: thank you. ;-) 2016-05-21T02:44:11Z Bike: well i don't know that i'm being all that helpful 2016-05-21T02:45:53Z aries_liuxueyang: It works now. 2016-05-21T02:56:44Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:01:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-21T03:01:51Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:04:04Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-21T03:05:56Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T03:14:27Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:15:34Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:19:32Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:20:45Z xrash quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:21:48Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:23:33Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:23:34Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:24:15Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T03:31:51Z mejja quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 46.0.1/20160502172042]) 2016-05-21T03:38:50Z m0li quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:40:39Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:44:40Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:45:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:49:50Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T03:50:21Z omilu joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:51:31Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:56:10Z bigwavejake joined #lisp 2016-05-21T03:58:30Z bigwavejake left #lisp 2016-05-21T03:59:10Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:00:12Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-21T04:00:35Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:08:10Z myk267 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:11:58Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T04:12:34Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T04:16:59Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:22:30Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:23:36Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-21T04:27:23Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T04:28:44Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-21T04:32:19Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T04:33:37Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:35:59Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T04:39:03Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:47:10Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T04:53:23Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:53:38Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-21T04:55:21Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-21T04:56:37Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:58:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-21T04:58:08Z groovy2shoes: hey beach 2016-05-21T04:58:19Z groovy2shoes: morning?! where are you? EUROPE?! 2016-05-21T04:58:32Z beach: I am, yes. 2016-05-21T04:58:38Z groovy2shoes: whoa 2016-05-21T04:58:49Z groovy2shoes: well, bonjour to you, monseur 2016-05-21T04:59:03Z beach: Thanks. 2016-05-21T04:59:20Z groovy2shoes: are you old enough to remember Le-Lisp, by chance? 2016-05-21T04:59:46Z beach: Yes. My wife worked for the company that commercialized it. 2016-05-21T04:59:48Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T04:59:52Z groovy2shoes: ILOG? 2016-05-21T04:59:54Z beach: Yes. 2016-05-21T04:59:56Z groovy2shoes: nice 2016-05-21T05:00:01Z groovy2shoes: what was it like? 2016-05-21T05:00:20Z beach: So so, by today's standards. 2016-05-21T05:00:28Z groovy2shoes: I've been talking with Christian Jullien and Jérôme Chailloux about the possibility of open-sourcing it 2016-05-21T05:00:41Z beach: Oh, that would be nice. 2016-05-21T05:00:48Z groovy2shoes: they're on board with the idea, but INRIA still owns the copyright, so there's bureaucracy involved 2016-05-21T05:01:22Z beach: Yeah, that could be problematic. Big bureaucracy. 2016-05-21T05:01:43Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:01:44Z groovy2shoes: I should ping them again and see if there are any updates and/or anything that can be done to help speed the process along 2016-05-21T05:02:07Z beach: Try to get them to release the graphics stuff as well then. 2016-05-21T05:02:23Z beach: Masai, was it? 2016-05-21T05:02:25Z Nuri left #lisp 2016-05-21T05:03:19Z groovy2shoes: I got «Recueil de petits problèmes en Scheme» for my birthday :D (along with AMOP, a graph theory book, and an Amazon giftcard I'm hoping to spend on a formal semantics book) 2016-05-21T05:03:34Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:03:49Z groovy2shoes: I don't speak French well if at all, but I've studied enough that I can read it, albeit slowly 2016-05-21T05:03:50Z beach: Nice present. 2016-05-21T05:04:12Z groovy2shoes: I read the Xavier Leroy book on Caml back in the day... I can't remember what it's called now 2016-05-21T05:04:17Z groovy2shoes: excellent book 2016-05-21T05:04:25Z groovy2shoes: wish we had a Caml book like that in English :I 2016-05-21T05:04:49Z beach: Translate it! 2016-05-21T05:05:00Z groovy2shoes: heh, I'm already too busy 2016-05-21T05:05:03Z groovy2shoes: maybe one day 2016-05-21T05:06:14Z groovy2shoes: I'm pretty much always astounded by French hackers heheh... it's a shame they aren't better known outside of France :/ 2016-05-21T05:06:22Z groovy2shoes: EuLisp was frakkin' fantastic, too 2016-05-21T05:06:48Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:09:20Z groovy2shoes: anyway 2016-05-21T05:09:44Z groovy2shoes: beach, do you know what the state of CLIM is nowadays? is it useable? is it pretty? 2016-05-21T05:10:06Z beach: It is very usable. Most people think it is ugly. 2016-05-21T05:10:31Z beach: The main reason is that I can't tell the difference so I don't know how to "fix" it. 2016-05-21T05:11:05Z beach: I haven't been following the evolution of the norm of aesthetics when it comes to GUIs. 2016-05-21T05:11:14Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:11:33Z beach: I am talking about McCLIM here. Don't know about commercial CLIMs. 2016-05-21T05:12:13Z groovy2shoes: ah 2016-05-21T05:12:19Z groovy2shoes: does McCLIM work on Windows? 2016-05-21T05:12:51Z beach: I seriously doubt it. 2016-05-21T05:13:06Z beach: The only backend that is known to work is CLX. 2016-05-21T05:13:48Z groovy2shoes: I was actually thinking about writing my GUI as a separate process, and sending drawing commands to it via IPC 2016-05-21T05:14:21Z groovy2shoes: à la X11 or MGR 2016-05-21T05:14:30Z beach: Are there still people using Windows? The commercials on TV suggests a crowd that would not be interested in CLIM or Common Lisp anyway. 2016-05-21T05:15:04Z beach: suggest 2016-05-21T05:16:09Z beach: If you are going to do it that way, you might as well use HTML. 2016-05-21T05:16:15Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T05:16:19Z groovy2shoes: people who aren't interested in CL might still be interested in applications written in CL :p 2016-05-21T05:16:29Z groovy2shoes: no 2016-05-21T05:16:31Z groovy2shoes: no HTML 2016-05-21T05:16:36Z groovy2shoes: bad beach! 2016-05-21T05:19:33Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T05:21:12Z beach: Or, you can help make McCLIM closer to today's aesthetic standards. That would benefit lots of people. 2016-05-21T05:21:24Z Nuri quit (Quit: Nuri) 2016-05-21T05:22:21Z groovy2shoes: hmmm... I'll see what I can do :) 2016-05-21T05:22:44Z groovy2shoes: I'm not very experienced when it comes to GUI programming, but i'm trying to learn 2016-05-21T05:23:35Z beach: CLIM is a great way to learn about the technical aspects of GUI programming. In fact the CLIM II standard is what taught me how great CLOS is. 2016-05-21T05:24:05Z groovy2shoes: that's actually why I'm interested in CLIM... because of CLOS, mostly :) 2016-05-21T05:24:13Z groovy2shoes: so, I'm glad to hear you say that 2016-05-21T05:25:39Z beach: You will be glad to hear that Scott McKay said that the presentation type system of McCLIM (which is very CLOS-y) is "what I meant for it to be, but CLOS implementations of the time were not good enough to do it that way". 2016-05-21T05:26:10Z groovy2shoes: :) 2016-05-21T05:26:36Z jackdaniel reads the backlog 2016-05-21T05:26:37Z jackdaniel: good morning 2016-05-21T05:26:39Z beach: The presentation-type code of McCLIM was mostly written by moore33. 2016-05-21T05:26:45Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2016-05-21T05:27:36Z groovy2shoes: hey jackdaniel 2016-05-21T05:27:56Z groovy2shoes: beach, do you know if there's a PDF version of the spec somewhere? I'm finding nothing but dead links :I 2016-05-21T05:28:46Z beach: No PDF, but this is even better: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/index.html 2016-05-21T05:29:54Z groovy2shoes: that's not better 2016-05-21T05:29:58Z groovy2shoes: I wanted to print it 2016-05-21T05:30:00Z groovy2shoes: :p 2016-05-21T05:30:04Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:30:06Z groovy2shoes: got a coil binder at work 2016-05-21T05:30:08Z beach: I can fix that for you. Hold on... 2016-05-21T05:30:21Z beach: jackdaniel: I meant to tell you: As you work on McCLIM, it would be a good idea to keep close contact with gabriel_laddel. He seems to be the most sophisticated user these days. 2016-05-21T05:30:46Z m0li quit (Quit: bye.) 2016-05-21T05:30:49Z jackdaniel: beach: OK, thanks 2016-05-21T05:32:33Z beach: groovy2shoes: http://metamodular.com/clim.pdf 2016-05-21T05:32:41Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:32:53Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:33:55Z tax quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T05:36:33Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T05:37:50Z beach: groovy2shoes: Did you faint? 2016-05-21T05:38:33Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T05:40:58Z groovy2shoes: lol, I was getting some coffee 2016-05-21T05:41:01Z groovy2shoes: thanks, beach :) 2016-05-21T05:41:10Z beach: Anytime! 2016-05-21T05:46:18Z qubitnerd joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:49:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:53:20Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:57:08Z rtoym joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:57:13Z schally joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:57:55Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-21T05:59:22Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T05:59:45Z ASau joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:05:54Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:08:45Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:17:43Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:18:01Z qubitnerd quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-21T06:21:22Z beach: It will be interesting to see whether using standard classes for defining parser combinators will make combinator parsing more useful in the context of Common Lisp. 2016-05-21T06:22:40Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:22:48Z beach: Like I said yesterday, I couldn't resist rewriting drewc's SMUG library to use standard classes rather than first-class functions. 2016-05-21T06:23:32Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:23:32Z beach: And, if it hasn't been done before, it could become an ELS paper for next year. 2016-05-21T06:23:49Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T06:25:54Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:28:00Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T06:28:00Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T06:29:12Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:30:03Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T06:30:51Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T06:30:53Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-21T06:35:20Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T06:35:49Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:38:24Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:39:41Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:43:52Z Nuri quit (Quit: Nuri) 2016-05-21T06:46:15Z phoe_krk: ! 2016-05-21T06:46:28Z phoe_krk: Franz CLIM got opensourced. 2016-05-21T06:46:39Z beach: Yeah. I saw that. 2016-05-21T06:47:50Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:48:54Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:50:01Z jackdaniel: oh, indeed 2016-05-21T06:51:01Z beach: They might have some backends that we can use, for systems like Windows and MacOS. 2016-05-21T06:51:22Z beach: But first, I must fix the way backends are done in McCLIM. 2016-05-21T06:52:39Z jackdaniel: beach: should I preserve the layout of https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim, or may I alter it a bit? 2016-05-21T06:53:30Z beach: Please alter it if you want. You know much better than I do what the aesthetic standards of the day are like. 2016-05-21T06:54:03Z aeth: Please violate one aesthetic standard of the day. Whitespace. Most flat styles have way too much of it. 2016-05-21T06:54:18Z aeth: It's nice to have a compact window top so a few more LoC can fit in the window 2016-05-21T06:55:11Z aeth: Well, I suppose in window decorations, it's technically padding 2016-05-21T06:56:53Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-21T06:57:33Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:01:51Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:04:47Z myk267 quit (Quit: myk267) 2016-05-21T07:08:24Z phoe_krk: http://i.imgur.com/KtXqmaQ.png <- I've been working on a more symbollic version of the Lisp Lizard logo. 2016-05-21T07:09:16Z phoe_krk: Using just three colors: a light one, a dark one and transparency, I can achieve a lot. 2016-05-21T07:10:28Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:11:22Z phoe_krk runs off again for more livecoding. 2016-05-21T07:13:17Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:14:03Z Cymew: phoe_krk: Looking good! 2016-05-21T07:14:46Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:18:21Z beach: jackdaniel: Your name and address will look a bit funny because there were some characters I was not allowed to use. Sorry about that. 2016-05-21T07:21:06Z jackdaniel: beach: no problem :) 2016-05-21T07:21:45Z jackdaniel: btw, I like the current theme, I want to change it a little because it will be easier to create a proper theme for coleslaw if I won't copy it with each single detail 2016-05-21T07:21:46Z phoe_krk: beach: us Polish people are used to the fact that our aćęłńóśźż are not usable in some countries. 2016-05-21T07:21:57Z phoe_krk: s/some/most/ 2016-05-21T07:22:43Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure. I understand. 2016-05-21T07:23:38Z phoe_krk: Also, hey, I finally begin understanding Bezier curves and vector art! 2016-05-21T07:23:40Z phoe_krk afk. 2016-05-21T07:31:48Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:33:53Z p_l: ... wait what, Franz CLIM is open? 2016-05-21T07:33:56Z p_l: hallelujah 2016-05-21T07:34:55Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:35:32Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T07:35:42Z jackdaniel: it may take some time before somebody will adjust it to use acl-compat 2016-05-21T07:36:08Z jackdaniel: but cool it's there 2016-05-21T07:37:08Z p_l: any links? 2016-05-21T07:38:22Z beach: To what? 2016-05-21T07:38:35Z p_l: Franz CLIM opensource 2016-05-21T07:38:56Z beach: Ah. It was posted here. Let's see if I can find it. 2016-05-21T07:39:06Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:39:12Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2/commits/master 2016-05-21T07:39:13Z jackdaniel: here 2016-05-21T07:39:19Z beach: Thanks. 2016-05-21T07:39:24Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:39:29Z jackdaniel: without the commits/master :) 2016-05-21T07:40:30Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:44:06Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:44:18Z rvchangue_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:44:33Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:45:28Z nell quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-21T07:48:10Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:48:26Z rvchangue is now known as Guest63672 2016-05-21T07:48:50Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:53:45Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:53:46Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-21T07:54:15Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:54:52Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T07:55:11Z edgar-rft: Pierre Bézier is obviously another victim of analphabetic computer charsets. 2016-05-21T07:55:52Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T07:56:25Z jackdaniel: heheh 2016-05-21T07:58:35Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T07:58:40Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-21T08:00:45Z theos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:00:50Z creat joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:02:36Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:04:06Z schally left #lisp 2016-05-21T08:06:15Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-21T08:07:40Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:10:04Z p_l: ... read through franz clim code, expect certain part to be ahem, of unix genesis, find conditionals for Genera and CLOE 2016-05-21T08:12:50Z p_l: Am I right that the Franz CLIM code was taken (somehow) from Genera? 2016-05-21T08:13:10Z beach: So you are saying it is outdated? 2016-05-21T08:13:31Z jackdaniel: it has some recent commits, but the main activity is older than 7y I think 2016-05-21T08:13:33Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:14:18Z beach: p_l: As I recall, Scott wrote code that became the basis of pretty much all commercial CLIM implementations, Franz, LispWords, Genera. 2016-05-21T08:15:50Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:16:11Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:19:13Z p_l: beach: not claiming it's outdated. There were components whose naming and files I've read earlier (which implemented Motif related stuff and even GIF) suggested the component was more recent - then I find CLOE :) 2016-05-21T08:20:04Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:20:10Z p_l: huh, there's HPGL driver... now I wish I didn't lose my old HPGL1 plotter 2016-05-21T08:21:07Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:21:44Z p_l: that plotter was a great example of how documentation used to look - the docs had full spec for both plotter languages supported by the device, enough to write drivers 2016-05-21T08:22:14Z Bike quit (Quit: slep) 2016-05-21T08:23:20Z p_l: beach: I also love that CLOE parts weren't cleaned out, because CLOE is probably one of the most "disappeared" parts of symbolics, it seems at times. 2016-05-21T08:23:31Z p_l: (the doubly-special hw requirements don't help) 2016-05-21T08:23:51Z beach: p_l: Remind me what CLOE is! 2016-05-21T08:24:12Z p_l: beach: CLOE was Symbolics IBM-PC offering 2016-05-21T08:24:21Z beach: Oh, heh! 2016-05-21T08:24:25Z p_l: yep 2016-05-21T08:25:25Z p_l: you'd use a LispM for developing software, with special 386 board inside for testing, then deploy complete applications on Windows 3.x 2016-05-21T08:25:42Z p_l: (at least the later CLOE versions ran on Win3.x) 2016-05-21T08:27:20Z p_l: I recall that Peter Paine has one L-bus CLOE developement board 2016-05-21T08:27:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:27:58Z p_l: spelunking on archives of symbolics mailing list, apparently symbolics marketing wasn't too keen on it :( 2016-05-21T08:28:26Z p_l: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2/tree/master/cloe <--- main cloe code in the franz clim repo 2016-05-21T08:29:47Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:30:34Z p_l: Supposedly CLOE worked quite nice, maybe if it was marketed more Symbolics would have a bit better cash flow 2016-05-21T08:31:59Z beach: We will never know. 2016-05-21T08:32:48Z p_l: we won 2016-05-21T08:32:53Z p_l: we won't :| 2016-05-21T08:33:02Z p_l: ehhh 2016-05-21T08:33:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:34:07Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:34:11Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:35:04Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T08:41:58Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:45:54Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:47:16Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:48:46Z DavidGuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-21T08:51:08Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-21T08:53:44Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:55:09Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T08:59:34Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T09:03:14Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:04:15Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-21T09:04:38Z random-nick is now known as ________________ 2016-05-21T09:04:51Z ________________ is now known as random-nick 2016-05-21T09:08:44Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T09:08:59Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T09:10:36Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:13:51Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:20:03Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:21:30Z zdm- joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:22:07Z zdm- left #lisp 2016-05-21T09:22:29Z pepton3 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:25:50Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:30:17Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-21T09:30:29Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T09:42:06Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:48:40Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T09:48:43Z Meow-J quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-21T09:49:55Z schjetne: phoe_krk: the font for the Made with Lisp lizard image appears to be Quartet Bold, in case you're still wondering 2016-05-21T09:50:14Z schjetne: Thanks for the excellent write-up, by the way. And I can't wait to see the interviews. 2016-05-21T09:50:18Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:51:00Z Meow-J joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:51:45Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-21T09:54:02Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T09:57:19Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T09:57:54Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T09:59:53Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:00:34Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:08:21Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:09:26Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:10:46Z bounb joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:10:47Z bounb quit (Changing host) 2016-05-21T10:10:47Z bounb joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:12:23Z Cymew: interviews? 2016-05-21T10:13:16Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:15:02Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T10:15:02Z Colleen quit (Quit: See you, space cowboy...) 2016-05-21T10:15:24Z phoe_krk: schjetne: thanks! <3 2016-05-21T10:15:31Z phoe_krk: I'll up the iviews today, I promise 2016-05-21T10:15:54Z schjetne: Cymew: he did interviews with many of the ELS speakers 2016-05-21T10:15:58Z Colleen joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:16:09Z Cymew: Ah, sweet. 2016-05-21T10:17:10Z schjetne: phoe_krk: This tool identifies most fonts: https://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/ 2016-05-21T10:17:49Z schjetne: I just had to bend the lines into shape 2016-05-21T10:26:35Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:29:16Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T10:31:19Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:31:32Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T10:35:55Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T10:37:33Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T10:38:33Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:47:35Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:49:03Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T10:55:24Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:56:57Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:56:58Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-21T10:59:15Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T11:00:20Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:00:24Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:01:58Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:02:05Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T11:02:05Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T11:02:06Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-21T11:04:00Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T11:04:39Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:05:34Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T11:05:54Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:06:50Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T11:10:51Z futpib joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:25:35Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:42:19Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T11:42:33Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-21T11:44:56Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:03:16Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:04:29Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-21T12:05:57Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:11:08Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:12:54Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:17:39Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:23:39Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:28:24Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:29:59Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:30:29Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:30:39Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:33:34Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:33:39Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:36:04Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:40:10Z dpg quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:40:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:41:13Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:42:06Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:48:15Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:48:49Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:48:51Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-21T12:49:17Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:50:35Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T12:51:45Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:51:58Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:53:44Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:54:46Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T12:57:13Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T12:57:14Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-21T13:00:14Z loke` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:03:30Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:07:13Z foom joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:07:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:07:38Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:11:03Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:11:26Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:13:21Z Opodeldoc quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-21T13:14:34Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:15:55Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:18:23Z phoe_krk: I have them uploaded 2016-05-21T13:18:33Z phoe_krk: I just need to write all these descriptions. Arrrrrrrgh. 2016-05-21T13:21:08Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:24:36Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:28:20Z dougk_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:28:21Z foom quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:34:25Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:34:51Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-21T13:35:21Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:37:13Z mejja joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:41:07Z foom joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:41:25Z dougk_ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:42:42Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:42:52Z Moosef joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:44:31Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T13:49:12Z mejja left #lisp 2016-05-21T13:49:13Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:52:28Z achernyak joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:54:31Z achernyak: Have you guys seen http://clojuredocs.org/? I was thinking of starting something similar for lisp. Would anyone be interested, or are you happy with the state of documentation now? 2016-05-21T13:56:16Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:57:26Z dpg joined #lisp 2016-05-21T13:59:20Z beach: achernyak: Might be some overlap with the Common Lisp UltraSpec currently worked on by phoe_krk. 2016-05-21T13:59:21Z loke`: achernyak: Why don't you just controbute to Ultraspec? 2016-05-21T13:59:23Z loke`: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/doku.php 2016-05-21T14:00:00Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:00:11Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:00:12Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:01:07Z achernyak: loke`: Thank you so much. I remember seeing this but couldn't find the link. I definitely will, I think it's essential the same idea. 2016-05-21T14:05:24Z schjetne: achernyak: there's also Quickdocs.org for everything in Quicklisp, but that's just generated from docstrings. 2016-05-21T14:06:20Z schjetne: I wonder, is UltraSpec using the new CL documentation system? 2016-05-21T14:06:28Z loke`: I'd love to see documentation for at least the common "standard" libraries like Alexandria and Bordeaux thread to ultraspec. But... First things first I guess. 2016-05-21T14:06:31Z achernyak: yeah, I've definitely used quickdocs before and think it's a really good resource 2016-05-21T14:07:30Z hey2 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:07:55Z achernyak: yeah I just want to be able to navigate the ultra spec easier and have it searchable/accessible in one place. I always feel like I am going back to the 80s when I open up the ultra spec lol 2016-05-21T14:10:18Z beach: Do you mean the Common Lisp HyperSpec? 2016-05-21T14:11:52Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:12:14Z futpib quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:13:34Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:13:56Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:14:50Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:16:32Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:17:04Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:18:19Z pavelpenev: achernyak: There is a lot of space for improvement when it comes to documentation and CL. I view quickdocs as a temporary measure until the community can figure something better out. I've promissed some help with lisp-lang.org a while ago but haven't had time to contribute. Seems like a bunch of people are doing their own thing in whichever direction and there is little coordination 2016-05-21T14:18:24Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:18:32Z schjetne: It would be nice to have a common system for docs, like Sphinx for Python. Codex looks very promising, I'm going to give it a try. 2016-05-21T14:18:33Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:18:59Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:19:16Z schjetne: http://commondoc.github.io/codex/ 2016-05-21T14:22:14Z pavelpenev: schjetne: yeah, eudoxia is also working on a new hyperspec version and the lisp-lang.org site. We just might get enough of the pieces togheter to get something bigger started. 2016-05-21T14:22:57Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:23:46Z pavelpenev: I'm working on some tutorials for some web libraries and even trying to make some spare cash selling them as an ebook, I have that I'm the one doing this, instead of more qualified people, but hey, what can you do :) 2016-05-21T14:23:59Z pavelpenev: s/have/hate 2016-05-21T14:25:36Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:30:33Z achernyak: pavelpenev: a lot of good books have been written by people just learning the things themselves. It helps them put it in a perspective of a beginner better. 2016-05-21T14:31:18Z pavelpenev: achernyak: Yes, I definitely learn a lot, but I don't think the result is as good as I want it to be. A Lot of editing is required, and I'm doing it all myself :) 2016-05-21T14:32:41Z achernyak: I do a lot of web programming by day, and just started really getting into lisp, so I would be happy to help out. 2016-05-21T14:32:52Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:33:19Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:35:29Z pavelpenev: achernyak: best thing anybody who isn't me can do at this point is to read early drafts and open github issues :) https://leanpub.com/fullstacklisp/read https://github.com/pvlpenev/fullstacklisp :) 2016-05-21T14:36:05Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:36:21Z moore33: Howdy. 2016-05-21T14:36:23Z pavelpenev: well, second best thing, the best thing would be to pay me to do it full time :) 2016-05-21T14:36:51Z achernyak: pavelpenev: will definitely do! 2016-05-21T14:39:32Z loke`: achernyak: Web programming in CL is amazingly fun. 2016-05-21T14:39:59Z loke`: achernyak: No need to mess with overly obtuse frameworks, and developing on a running system is part of the Lisp way :-) 2016-05-21T14:40:00Z dwchandler: If it's fun at all, that's amazing ;-) 2016-05-21T14:40:50Z pavelpenev: Having done web development proffesionally for a few years(mostly Django) I find it kind of boring, lisp makes it ok 2016-05-21T14:40:54Z loke`: Just edit a web-handler function and press C-c C-c, the function will be compiled and active right then and there. No deployment, no reloads, all state preserved, since you are developing in a runtime that actually runs the application. 2016-05-21T14:41:10Z loke`: It's kindof like Lisp was made for this kind of development. 2016-05-21T14:42:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:42:57Z pavelpenev: yes, I've fixed bugs while the browser was waiting for a response, just edit and recompile the code and restart the handler from the debugger. From the client POV the site wasjust really slow for a minute, but you have to fix the bug in less than the browser timeout :) 2016-05-21T14:43:44Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:44:01Z loke`: pavelpenev: Indeed. After doing that a few times, and then going to work on a Java-based web-application makes it feel incredibly primitive. :-) 2016-05-21T14:44:16Z loke`: (the java part, that is) 2016-05-21T14:47:43Z pavelpenev: loke`: I've been learning android recetly. Well, at least I can center things, unlike in CSS :p 2016-05-21T14:47:48Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:48:02Z pavelpenev: but java is pretty primitive 2016-05-21T14:48:04Z wglb quit (Quit: Rebootind this sucker) 2016-05-21T14:48:24Z loke`: pavelpenev: Yeah, it was an example. 2016-05-21T14:48:33Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:48:46Z loke`: Most web application development environments invove a deployment cycle. 2016-05-21T14:49:59Z DeadTrickster_: dunno after emacs android studio (or any other such product) feel very 'intrusive' 2016-05-21T14:50:14Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-21T14:51:06Z DeadTrickster_: maybe that's a good for the starters but it just blatantly highlights all my code as invalid ) 2016-05-21T14:51:56Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: It shouldn't. Usually I see that happen when your JDK parth (or android SDK path) points to the wrong place, making all system methods unknown (and hence, red) 2016-05-21T14:53:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:53:26Z pavelpenev: Is it even possible to manage a java codebase of a non-trivial size without an equaly elaborate IDE? 2016-05-21T14:54:07Z loke`: pavelpenev: Perhaps. I don't think anyone has dared to try. 2016-05-21T14:54:40Z loke`: Java isn't too bad, when using a good IDE (i.e. IntelliJ IDEA). 2016-05-21T14:55:15Z pepton3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T14:55:31Z achernyak: loke`: I've never been as happy as when my old job started using clojure instead of Java 2016-05-21T14:55:56Z pavelpenev: loke`: Java is managable. I am yet to be convinced a JS app can be scaled to any size 2016-05-21T14:56:11Z achernyak: Java isn't that bad with an IDE but at that point I don't feel like I am coding anymore. I feel like I am just configuring things 2016-05-21T14:56:50Z loke`: pavelpenev: Given the number of articles recently being written about failed Node.js projects, I agree with you, and I feel vindicated (I'm known to have been very negative to node since forever) 2016-05-21T14:57:34Z pavelpenev: loke`: me too, but I've had some experience doing angular.js It felt like we had to turn JS into Java in order to get anything done. 2016-05-21T15:01:36Z DeadTrickster_: loke`, funny fact: app builds. it's undergoes alpha testing through market 2016-05-21T15:01:53Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: What app? 2016-05-21T15:02:09Z DeadTrickster_: sorry usa only for now ) 2016-05-21T15:02:29Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: Which app are you talking about? 2016-05-21T15:03:05Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:03:05Z DeadTrickster_: loke`, I can't name it right now, sorry 2016-05-21T15:03:13Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:03:44Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: Given the fact that you mentioned it, I'd presume that there is some piece of information you want/can share with us. Otherwise, why say anything at all? 2016-05-21T15:04:28Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:04:31Z loke`: I presume you are talking about a build system? "app builds". Something like a CI system? 2016-05-21T15:04:33Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T15:05:08Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:05:59Z DeadTrickster_: loke`, oh sorry for confusion. I told that there might be wrong JDK or SDK pathes. All I wanted to say is despite all errors IDE is throwing at me app builds and successfully accepted by market 2016-05-21T15:06:17Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: Oh, OK. Then it makes sense. Thanks :-) 2016-05-21T15:06:45Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: That could, however, be beacuse you're building with Maven, Gradle or something like that (poor you :-) ). Instead of using the built-in build system in IDEA. 2016-05-21T15:07:25Z DeadTrickster_: I see familiar words here! 2016-05-21T15:08:28Z DeadTrickster_: but (sorry for continuing off-topic) what bothers me most is how often designer is crushing and overall IDE (in)stability 2016-05-21T15:08:43Z DeadTrickster_: I mean it costs millions yet it can just freeze 2016-05-21T15:13:32Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T15:13:58Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:15:18Z loke`: DeadTrickster_: The UI designer is shit, and have always been. 2016-05-21T15:15:25Z loke`: Just edit the XML files manually like sane people. 2016-05-21T15:20:14Z pepton3 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:23:47Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:25:19Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:25:36Z Pete_R joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:25:50Z Pete_R left #lisp 2016-05-21T15:31:54Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T15:36:52Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T15:37:08Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T15:37:36Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T15:39:31Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:46:10Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T15:47:18Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:49:13Z wglb joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:49:20Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:50:39Z Moosef quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-21T15:52:31Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-21T15:57:21Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-21T15:57:52Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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2016-05-21T17:15:14Z test-throw quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T17:16:51Z knobo: maybe I should use lispworks for that. 2016-05-21T17:17:25Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:17:48Z gilez is now known as Guest57449 2016-05-21T17:18:24Z SkatingAway joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:20:17Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T17:20:39Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:21:12Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:21:24Z achernyak quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T17:23:03Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:23:33Z Guest57449 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T17:24:06Z pjb: knobo: you could do something like that with cl-stepper. 2016-05-21T17:24:13Z Opodeldoc joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:26:13Z wildlander_ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:26:16Z wildlander quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-21T17:29:12Z SkatingAway quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T17:32:20Z wildlander_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T17:34:04Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:35:47Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:37:07Z myk267 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:38:23Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T17:38:32Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:41:11Z trasto_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T17:44:41Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:47:12Z angular_mike: I'm unsuccessfully trying to replicate an exercise from here: http://learnlispthehardway.org/book/1-03-0-getting-input-from-users/ 2016-05-21T17:47:29Z angular_mike: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/TplRWCV3/ 2016-05-21T17:47:46Z angular_mike: when I execute it in sbcl, it lands me in debugger: 2016-05-21T17:48:02Z angular_mike: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/iNaq96Mf/ 2016-05-21T17:48:40Z jathd: angular_mike: After the READ-SEQUENCE has read "abc", the rest is probably treated by the REPL as further input from you 2016-05-21T17:48:59Z angular_mike: jathd: the example doesn't mention that 2016-05-21T17:50:42Z angular_mike: clhs paramter 2016-05-21T17:50:42Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for paramter. 2016-05-21T17:50:44Z akkad: pavelpenev: when your new book ready? 2016-05-21T17:50:49Z angular_mike: clhs defparamter 2016-05-21T17:50:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for defparamter. 2016-05-21T17:50:55Z angular_mike: clhs defparameter 2016-05-21T17:50:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 2016-05-21T17:51:49Z pavelpenev: akkad: I don't have hard targets. I hope to have a partial new chapter ready in the coming days. 2016-05-21T17:52:50Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T17:54:11Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:54:12Z akkad: pavelpenev: excellent, thanks. 2016-05-21T17:54:41Z jathd: angular_mike: it probably depends on the environment in which you type this. I think what you see should be the expected behaviour, but there is no error when suing SLIME 2016-05-21T17:54:44Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-05-21T17:55:07Z jathd: angular_mike: probably because SLIME does something weird with the input 2016-05-21T17:55:25Z jathd: angular_mike: and the author of LLTHW probably uses SLIME 2016-05-21T17:59:59Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-21T18:02:31Z myk267 quit (Quit: myk267) 2016-05-21T18:03:25Z Charazzard joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:03:32Z Charazzard: hey ugys 2016-05-21T18:04:26Z Charazzard: anyone have logs from this channel going back many many years? 2016-05-21T18:04:40Z JuanDaugherty: it's publicly logged 2016-05-21T18:04:48Z JuanDaugherty: should have been in topic 2016-05-21T18:05:01Z angular_mike: clhs log 2016-05-21T18:05:01Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_log.htm 2016-05-21T18:05:04Z Charazzard: okay thanks, i just ran across this: http://ircbrowse.net/day/lisp/2001/09/11 2016-05-21T18:05:07Z Charazzard: found it fascinating 2016-05-21T18:06:03Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:06:07Z myk267 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:07:07Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:10:21Z brkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T18:10:28Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:10:29Z angular_mike: clhs hyperspec 2016-05-21T18:10:29Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for hyperspec. 2016-05-21T18:10:47Z angular_mike: clhs x3 2016-05-21T18:10:47Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for x3. 2016-05-21T18:10:49Z angular_mike: clhs ansi 2016-05-21T18:10:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for ansi. 2016-05-21T18:11:00Z axion: What is the community's standard as far as style conventions? I have been following the Google guide for years, and wondering if there is a more preferred source 2016-05-21T18:11:03Z angular_mike: clhs lispworks 2016-05-21T18:11:03Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for lispworks. 2016-05-21T18:11:25Z Bike: axion: the google guide's fine 2016-05-21T18:11:37Z axion: Ok 2016-05-21T18:14:44Z brkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T18:14:50Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:16:17Z chream_ joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:18:22Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:20:20Z random-nickname joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:20:28Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T18:20:52Z brkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T18:20:58Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:23:38Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T18:24:08Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:25:17Z random-nickname is now known as random-nick 2016-05-21T18:25:46Z angular_mike: clhc fill 2016-05-21T18:25:55Z angular_mike: clhs fill 2016-05-21T18:25:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fill.htm 2016-05-21T18:27:09Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:30:10Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:30:45Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:31:28Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T18:33:05Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:38:03Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:39:58Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-21T18:41:22Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:42:26Z chream_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:42:47Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T18:48:07Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:50:39Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-21T18:59:11Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T18:59:23Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:00:31Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:01:08Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:03:25Z burtons quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-21T19:03:34Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:05:02Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:11:48Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:12:15Z zdm joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:17:56Z knobo: pjb: how do I use the stepper? 2016-05-21T19:20:05Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:20:45Z defaultxr joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:21:26Z fouric: cd 7 2016-05-21T19:28:47Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T19:29:49Z knobo: The package I want to enable stepping in, I do (:use stepper) insted of (:use cl) ? 2016-05-21T19:30:19Z knobo: and then recompile? 2016-05-21T19:31:21Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-21T19:31:46Z akkad: what is the best solution for berkeley db? 2016-05-21T19:32:48Z knobo: akkad: what do you want to do? 2016-05-21T19:33:21Z akkad: I Want to berkeley db 2016-05-21T19:33:57Z akkad: find one option in ql that does not bomb on compilation. 2016-05-21T19:36:34Z akkad: Could not load /usr/local/BerkeleyDB.4.5/lib/libdb-4.5.so into /usr/local/BerkeleyDB.4.5/lib/libdb-4.5.so. ancient hard coded paths 2016-05-21T19:36:49Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:38:40Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:40:45Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:43:34Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:43:40Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:44:42Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:45:19Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:45:27Z phoe_krk: why do I keep on being tired all the time 2016-05-21T19:45:33Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:45:38Z phoe_krk: xD 2016-05-21T19:46:11Z shka quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-21T19:46:20Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:46:59Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:50:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T19:52:00Z fourier: phoe_krk: try excercise :) 2016-05-21T19:53:43Z akkad: oddly postmodern appears to be the only db related package I can reliably build portably. minus ecl. 2016-05-21T19:55:34Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:55:53Z phoe_krk: fourier: I don't have any time for it 2016-05-21T19:55:56Z phoe_krk: I keep on walking long kilometers 2016-05-21T19:56:01Z phoe_krk: I keep on live-translating people 2016-05-21T19:56:06Z phoe_krk: I keep on showing stuff to people 2016-05-21T19:56:17Z phoe_krk: actually I'm exercising my body, mind and spirit all the time 2016-05-21T19:56:41Z phoe_krk: and it's just, blah, I should have published these ELS interviews a week ago or something and I'm too tired to write a single caption for it xD 2016-05-21T19:57:54Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T19:59:35Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T19:59:49Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:02:26Z ChibaPet joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:05:00Z varjag quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T20:06:24Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:08:04Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:10:41Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:12:01Z fourier: phoe_krk: :) 2016-05-21T20:12:48Z nell quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-21T20:16:46Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:16:58Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T20:19:39Z madalu joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:19:41Z loke` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T20:19:47Z loke`` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:22:24Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:22:43Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:23:18Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:24:16Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:29:52Z emaczen` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:33:40Z m3tti joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:35:32Z akkad: ahh slime setting downcase.. ugg 2016-05-21T20:37:34Z akkad wonders how many other failures were slime set *print-case* to :downcase 2016-05-21T20:38:52Z phoe_krk: Okay. Building it now. 2016-05-21T20:39:20Z phoe_krk: 1/4 screen being irssi, 2/4 screen being HTOP, 1/2 screen - build log. 2016-05-21T20:39:37Z phoe_krk: s/2\/4/1\/4/ 2016-05-21T20:41:07Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T20:41:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:41:43Z phoe_krk: s/it/Clasp/ 2016-05-21T20:41:56Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:42:32Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-21T20:43:09Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:44:44Z akkad would love to test clasp. is there a repo yet where one can download/build simply? 2016-05-21T20:45:37Z m3tti quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:46:00Z phoe_krk: akkad: #clasp 2016-05-21T20:46:10Z phoe_krk: But basically, github/drmeister/clasp 2016-05-21T20:46:25Z phoe_krk: Pull the latest testing branch, satisfy the dependencies, run make. 2016-05-21T20:46:35Z phoe_krk: That's the summary. 2016-05-21T20:46:47Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:47:28Z dpg quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-21T20:48:55Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:49:10Z akkad: phoe_krk: thanks. 2016-05-21T20:49:19Z akkad: hmm #clap is a different lisp I guess. 2016-05-21T20:49:23Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:50:22Z akkad: --depth 1 ftw 2016-05-21T20:50:39Z phoe_krk: #clap? 2016-05-21T20:50:56Z emaczen` joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:51:00Z akkad: I typoed. and ended up in #std 2016-05-21T20:54:25Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-21T20:55:38Z madalu quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T20:55:40Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T20:57:50Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T20:58:02Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-21T21:05:06Z zdm quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-21T21:05:12Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-21T21:05:17Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-21T21:06:55Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-21T21:11:00Z brh quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 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papachan: nope. sequence---a proper sequence. 2016-05-22T00:19:07Z emaczen` left #lisp 2016-05-22T00:19:50Z pjb: oops, sorry, it's a proper list, so it's ok. 2016-05-22T00:19:52Z Bike: looks like a sequence to me. 2016-05-22T00:19:55Z papachan: :) 2016-05-22T00:19:56Z emaczen left #lisp 2016-05-22T00:20:02Z pjb: What you get doing shell scripting 8 hours a day for months… 2016-05-22T00:21:28Z papachan: zsh? bourne shell? or just bash? 2016-05-22T00:21:32Z pjb: bash. 2016-05-22T00:22:03Z pjb: I'd expect zsh to be just as bad actually. It's increadible how bad bash is. 2016-05-22T00:22:37Z pjb: Do you realize that even in bash 4+, arrays are still not first class objects! 2016-05-22T00:24:28Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:25:58Z papachan: you have to declare it? 2016-05-22T00:26:13Z papachan: declare -a arr=(1 2 3) 2016-05-22T00:26:15Z papachan: ? 2016-05-22T00:26:51Z pjb: You cannot pass it as argument to functions, you cannot assign from one variable to another, you cannot put an array in an array, etc. 2016-05-22T00:27:47Z pjb: Of course, you cannot return them as results of functions. 2016-05-22T00:28:21Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:28:25Z papachan: is there any lisp shell? 2016-05-22T00:28:35Z pjb: papachan: yes. any lisp REPL is one. 2016-05-22T00:29:03Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T00:29:08Z pjb: papachan: you can add a few reader macros to make it easier to use interactively too. Eg. to run external programs, or to create pipes, etc. 2016-05-22T00:29:25Z pjb: papachan: there's scsh (scheme based) that is a good example. 2016-05-22T00:29:25Z papachan: pipes! <3 2016-05-22T00:29:49Z papachan: oh didnt know this one 2016-05-22T00:30:24Z pjb: There's also eshell in emacs. 2016-05-22T00:30:40Z papachan: sure 2016-05-22T00:31:02Z papachan: so why are you using bash script? 2016-05-22T00:32:05Z pjb: To extend a build system for a customer. 2016-05-22T00:32:39Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:32:47Z pjb: I'm extracting component data from makefiles and generating Xcode projects and workspace to compile those components for iOS. 2016-05-22T00:33:42Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:34:25Z papachan: its all all under mac os? 2016-05-22T00:34:40Z pjb: yes, and linux. 2016-05-22T00:36:50Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:38:15Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:38:15Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-22T00:39:01Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:41:52Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:42:03Z payphone quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:43:08Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:44:28Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:44:43Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:45:14Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:45:40Z Harag quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T00:45:51Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:46:18Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-22T00:47:42Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:49:14Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:50:00Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T00:53:51Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-22T00:59:46Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:00:02Z dreamaddict joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:00:32Z dreamaddict: what is the Common Lisp autocomplete package for Emacs? 2016-05-22T01:01:04Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T01:01:16Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:02:00Z papachan: for slime i have this (add-hook 'slime-mode-hook 'set-up-slime-ac) 2016-05-22T01:03:25Z papachan: but under lisp mode i have the auto complete enabled, i just dont remember how i setit up 2016-05-22T01:04:17Z papachan: maybe try this 2016-05-22T01:04:25Z papachan: (eval-after-load "auto-complete" '(add-to-list 'ac-modes 'slime-repl-mode)) 2016-05-22T01:07:13Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:07:32Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T01:10:29Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:10:48Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T01:12:02Z Charazzard left #lisp 2016-05-22T01:13:33Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T01:15:33Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:15:54Z bullets: ehm, I pass a symbol to a function and want the function to get the value of the symbol 2016-05-22T01:15:57Z bullets: how do I do this? 2016-05-22T01:16:20Z Bike: clhs symbol-value 2016-05-22T01:16:20Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_5.htm 2016-05-22T01:16:26Z bullets: oh thanks 2016-05-22T01:21:55Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:23:01Z bullets is now known as yakuza-sushi 2016-05-22T01:23:30Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:27:05Z Quadrescence: i just got an idea for capturing the lexical value of a symbol and getting it in a different lexical environment 2016-05-22T01:27:17Z yakuza-sushi is now known as bullets 2016-05-22T01:28:07Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-22T01:28:07Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-22T01:29:44Z Quadrescence: never mind it was a dumb idea (basically making a version of QUOTE called LQUOTE such that (LQUOTE x) returns 'x but also stashes x's lexical value away somewhere which can be passed around with (quote x) 2016-05-22T01:30:16Z Quadrescence: but it's dumb because you could just cons that value up somehwere 2016-05-22T01:30:25Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T01:35:24Z pjb: Quadrescence: have a look at: http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#C-like-pointers-in-Lisp 2016-05-22T01:35:41Z pjb: Quadrescence: ie. the correct way to catpure the lexical scope is to use closures. 2016-05-22T01:35:43Z Quadrescence: pjb, i have cl-locatives 2016-05-22T01:36:58Z Quadrescence: pjb, and yes that's what i mean, but it doesn't work because there's no way to globally associate such a closure with a symnol 2016-05-22T01:37:18Z Quadrescence: symbol*, to pass around and use a supposed LEXICAL-SYMBOL-VALUE outside of the lexical context 2016-05-22T01:37:26Z pjb: A given symbol can have multiple such closures! 2016-05-22T01:37:39Z pjb: You would need a way to designate the one you want. 2016-05-22T01:37:54Z Quadrescence: yes I know, that is what I'm saying 2016-05-22T01:38:18Z Quadrescence: and the point is that you're no longer calling LEXICAL-SYMBOL-VALUE on a symbol anymore 2016-05-22T01:38:19Z pjb: Notice that it is needed when you want to write a debugger. 2016-05-22T01:38:24Z Quadrescence: anyway it was just a non-sense thought 2016-05-22T01:38:39Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:38:48Z Josh2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T01:42:33Z bullets: sigh 2016-05-22T01:43:36Z bullets: help plz. I pass a symbol to a function, so inside the function it's bound to s 2016-05-22T01:44:17Z bullets: and I want to get (symbol-function s) and of course it doesn't work 2016-05-22T01:45:05Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T01:45:19Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:46:52Z bullets: how can I get the function inside a symbol which is referenced by a variable? 2016-05-22T01:48:22Z axion: Depending on what you are doing, you may have to make the symbol special. 2016-05-22T01:48:30Z axion: Can you show us some code? 2016-05-22T01:48:50Z bullets: kay, lemme paste it 2016-05-22T01:49:38Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T01:50:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T01:51:01Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:52:06Z s00pcan_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T01:52:11Z bullets: hm I realized I don't need to go through that to get what I want... 2016-05-22T01:57:14Z s00pcan_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T01:57:56Z pjb: bullets: don't confuse symbol-function and symbol-value. 2016-05-22T01:58:53Z pjb: (defun foo () 42) (defparameter foo 33) (list (symbol-function 'foo) (symbol-value 'foo)) #| --> (# 33) |# 2016-05-22T01:59:08Z pjb: (list (funcall (symbol-function 'foo)) (symbol-value 'foo)) #| --> (42 33) |# 2016-05-22T02:00:11Z bullets: yeah, I was trying to get the functions themselves, but I don't really need them, the symbol will do 2016-05-22T02:04:06Z mfranzwa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T02:04:26Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:04:36Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:05:04Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:06:44Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:09:29Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:11:29Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T02:12:05Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:14:36Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T02:14:42Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/8d1b56e920c1e6293dc5 not even sure where the key error is. 2016-05-22T02:15:12Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:15:12Z Bike: 404? 2016-05-22T02:15:32Z akkad: one sec. thought I patched yagist. 2016-05-22T02:15:50Z Opodeldoc joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:16:47Z akkad: https://gist.github.com/ober/ea3d392c41308d1b56e920c1e6293dc5 2016-05-22T02:17:25Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:18:17Z Bike: yeah asdf errors suck. 2016-05-22T02:19:07Z akkad: ahh 2016-05-22T02:20:27Z Bike: i think you want to look at that warnings-p variable in frame 2. 2016-05-22T02:20:49Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:20:50Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:20:58Z akkad: thanks for the pointer bike. 2016-05-22T02:24:04Z munksgaard quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T02:27:18Z akkad: is there a way to get it to expand the ..? 2016-05-22T02:27:31Z akkad: in the gui, non slime, I got the error ok. slime gobbled it up 2016-05-22T02:28:59Z Bike: you should just be able to look at the variable in the debugger 2016-05-22T02:29:35Z akkad: brings it up in the slime-inspector buffer 2016-05-22T02:30:22Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:30:34Z Bike: that works 2016-05-22T02:31:08Z akkad: truncated though, and the "undefined function |view-class-slot-autoincrement-sequence|" due to *print-case* being :upcase 2016-05-22T02:33:10Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:34:33Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T02:36:12Z BlueRavenGT quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T02:37:23Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:41:41Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-22T02:45:59Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:46:09Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T02:46:29Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:51:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:52:35Z Harag1 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T02:54:59Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T02:55:00Z Harag1 is now known as Harag 2016-05-22T03:01:30Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:01:36Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:02:31Z holycow: hi all. any lispers here located in vancouver bc? 2016-05-22T03:02:39Z yrdz` joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:03:15Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:03:54Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:04:01Z yrdz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:04:14Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:06:12Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:09:11Z strat0cat joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:11:14Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:22:26Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:22:45Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-22T03:24:14Z Beetny quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:26:13Z OrangeShark quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T03:33:08Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-22T03:33:57Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:36:04Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-22T03:38:24Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:44:04Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:46:44Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:47:10Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:51:34Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:51:40Z ryan_vw` joined #lisp 2016-05-22T03:53:59Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T03:54:09Z ryan_vw quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:55:54Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T03:57:15Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:04:02Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:07:18Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T04:12:51Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-22T04:15:27Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:19:15Z s00pcan_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T04:23:19Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T04:27:14Z schally joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:27:56Z holycow quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-22T04:28:21Z arescorpio quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-22T04:31:53Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:35:44Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:36:14Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:37:35Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:38:04Z strat0cat quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T04:38:54Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T04:40:23Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:47:12Z beach: Did GitHub quit showing "streaks"? 2016-05-22T04:47:31Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:52:17Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:52:42Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T04:53:04Z Bike: huh, looks like it 2016-05-22T04:53:33Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T04:53:35Z j0nii joined #lisp 2016-05-22T04:56:55Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T05:03:58Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:05:08Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-22T05:10:51Z beach: Colleen: do weather Bordeaux 2016-05-22T05:10:51Z Colleen: Weather for Bordeaux: Drizzle at 13.01°C, 95% humidity, 2.15km/h wind, 1009.83hPa pressure. 2016-05-22T05:11:29Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T05:11:31Z beach: Wow, those are very precise numbers. Obviously not done by an engineer. 2016-05-22T05:21:39Z Bike: having two decimal points on a hectopascal value is kinda funny. 2016-05-22T05:22:10Z beach: It is ridiculous, even. 2016-05-22T05:24:27Z myk267 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:30:26Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:34:54Z beach: My library ACCLIMATION is an attempt to solve problems like this. It dispatches on a class that rounds to a reasonable precision depending on the unit and the use case, so that (for example) oven temperature is rounded to 5°C, but ambient temperature to 1°C. 2016-05-22T05:38:34Z yrdz` quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T05:45:22Z Bike: looks like colleen uses forecast.io, which in turn uses some kind of average of a bunch of sources, such as like a dozen NOAA systems 2016-05-22T05:45:58Z beach: So the numbers are already this precise when Colleen gets them? 2016-05-22T05:46:09Z Lord_Nightmare quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T05:46:44Z Bike: yup. https://github.com/Shinmera/colleen/blob/master/modules/weather.lisp 2016-05-22T05:46:47Z beach: If so, the person who wrote forecast.io should be spanked. 2016-05-22T05:46:49Z Lord_Nightmare joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:46:57Z schally quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-22T05:47:40Z schally joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:48:12Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:48:41Z Bike: well, i'm looking at NOAA now. it gives three digits for air pressure, except the unit is inHg so uh... 2016-05-22T05:49:00Z j0nii quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T05:49:07Z schally left #lisp 2016-05-22T05:49:15Z schally joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:51:20Z scottj joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:51:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-22T05:53:22Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T05:56:03Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:06:00Z mastokley quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T06:06:07Z bulllets joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:06:59Z beach: One hopes forecast.io converts the units before taking the average. :) 2016-05-22T06:08:52Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:11:35Z dreamaddict: I swear, a while ago I saw something about an emacs lib that color-coded macro code by meta-level 2016-05-22T06:24:17Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:27:28Z hey2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T06:28:04Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:34:33Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:35:00Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:35:04Z omilu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T06:41:52Z p_l: you can always try to use METAR data for weather. Pressure is to single hPa, or 2 decimal places inHg 2016-05-22T06:42:49Z p_l: though usually no forecasts :) 2016-05-22T06:45:10Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:48:47Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:48:59Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:51:39Z eschatol_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:53:12Z eschatol_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-22T06:53:27Z eschatol_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:53:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:55:29Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T06:57:42Z phoe_krk: Hey. 2016-05-22T06:58:11Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-22T06:58:12Z beach: p_l: I'll just use Meteo France for the local forecast. 2016-05-22T06:58:23Z beach: Hello phoe_krk. 2016-05-22T06:59:33Z eschatol_ is now known as eschatologist 2016-05-22T07:02:19Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:05:22Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T07:07:20Z davsebamse quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-22T07:09:51Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:11:39Z narendraj9 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T07:14:03Z beach: According to the Wikipedia, the USA, Myanmar, and Liberia are the only countries who have not officially adopted the metric system. 2016-05-22T07:14:46Z Bike: myanmar said they were gonna 2016-05-22T07:15:05Z Bike: and, well, technically, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_Conversion_Act 2016-05-22T07:15:56Z bulllets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T07:16:10Z beach: Interesting. 2016-05-22T07:16:56Z beach: Of course, the only way to succeed with a conversion is to make it mandatory to teach it schools, starting in elementary school. 2016-05-22T07:17:57Z beach: And, as I recall, the US government has no power over such decisions. 2016-05-22T07:17:59Z Bike: it is. i learned metric prefixes like four separate times in K12. 2016-05-22T07:18:18Z Bike: well, no, but i think most places do anyway. 2016-05-22T07:18:26Z beach: That's good. 2016-05-22T07:19:12Z Bike: the issue is more the common stuff... i don't have an intuition for how fast 100 km/h is or how many mL are in a teaspoon 2016-05-22T07:19:36Z myk267 quit (Quit: myk267) 2016-05-22T07:19:54Z beach: I wonder how that problem was fixed in other places that adopted the metric system. 2016-05-22T07:20:23Z beach: [as it turns out, neither km/h nor ml are SI units] 2016-05-22T07:20:37Z beach: And it is "l" rather than "L". 2016-05-22T07:21:36Z beach: It is also interesting to abbreviations such as KPH (Kelvin something Henry) rather than km/h. 2016-05-22T07:21:55Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:21:57Z beach: to see such abbreviations 2016-05-22T07:22:41Z Bike: speed limits in km/s sound fun. and L is a standard symbol for liters. i know it's not SI, but it is decimalized 2016-05-22T07:23:46Z phoe_krk: A liter is one dm^3. 2016-05-22T07:24:02Z phoe_krk: Which is 1/1000 m^3. 2016-05-22T07:24:30Z phoe_krk: km/h is a kilometer per hour, which is 1000 meter per 3600 seconds. Both meter and second are SI units. 2016-05-22T07:25:13Z beach: Sure, and an inch is 254 mm and mm is an SI unit. Does that make inch an SI unit? 2016-05-22T07:25:24Z beach: er, 25.4 2016-05-22T07:28:22Z phoe_krk: Not really. Makes inch a derived SI unit. 2016-05-22T07:28:49Z phoe_krk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_derived_unit 2016-05-22T07:29:16Z phoe_krk: Oh wait. 2016-05-22T07:29:21Z phoe_krk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-SI_units_mentioned_in_the_SI 2016-05-22T07:29:34Z Bike: i don't think just having an exact ratio makes it derived 2016-05-22T07:29:46Z beach: Inch is not an SI derived unit. 2016-05-22T07:30:12Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:30:56Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:31:13Z phoe_krk: Yes, you two are right. 2016-05-22T07:34:11Z mordocai: XachX_: https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw seems to be many months/commits ahead of quicklisp. I don't know if it is the official home or not. 2016-05-22T07:37:01Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:37:40Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T07:40:33Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-22T07:42:18Z knobo: Do I need to use any locks to stop a server? https://github.com/7max/log4cl/issues/35 2016-05-22T07:44:46Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:45:23Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:47:26Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:48:03Z Bike quit (Quit: falsify) 2016-05-22T07:49:14Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T07:49:42Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:50:29Z ggole joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:54:01Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:55:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T07:55:18Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:56:05Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:56:55Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-22T07:58:40Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T08:05:22Z sigjuice: is there a version of the code from the PCL book that will load easily using quicklisp? 2016-05-22T08:05:29Z ggole__ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:05:37Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-22T08:07:08Z theos quit (Disconnected by services) 2016-05-22T08:07:32Z theos joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:08:04Z schally: if there isn't a package, just clone it off github and add it like a local project 2016-05-22T08:08:20Z schally: there is a repo here with .asd files for everything: https://github.com/leandrosilva/codes-from-books/tree/master/practical-common-lisp 2016-05-22T08:08:21Z ggole_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T08:08:42Z dreamaddict: where do I put commands that will be executed immediately upon loading SLIME (e.g. my stupid hacks) 2016-05-22T08:10:13Z schally: what repl? 2016-05-22T08:10:59Z schally: for sbcl I use .sbclrc 2016-05-22T08:11:01Z dreamaddict: the one in SLIME in Emacs 2016-05-22T08:11:36Z sigjuice: schally I downloaded http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practicals-1.0.3.tar.gz which contains several .asd files. I would prefer to not spend time grappling with asdf. 2016-05-22T08:12:31Z schally: sigjuice: you can load it into quicklisp by adding the .asd files to your system-index.txt and then loading with ql:quickload 2016-05-22T08:15:24Z Nuri left #lisp 2016-05-22T08:16:14Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:17:16Z schally: dreamaddict: you can put commands into your emacs file using (eval-after-load "slime" *yourcode*) 2016-05-22T08:17:45Z schally: for emacs commands 2016-05-22T08:18:10Z schally: for loading things into your repl you should use your repl specific config file 2016-05-22T08:18:12Z dreamaddict: well it's common lisp code, I mean like for my small macros (that aren't connected to emacs but to the SLIME REPL) 2016-05-22T08:18:22Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:18:24Z _death: ~/.swank.lisp 2016-05-22T08:18:26Z dreamaddict: yeah .sbclrc is the file that I was looking for 2016-05-22T08:18:35Z dreamaddict: welllll....one sec 2016-05-22T08:20:47Z sigjuice: schally : I got it working. I moved practicals-1.0.3/ to ~quicklisp/ and called (ql:register-local-projects) 2016-05-22T08:21:25Z schally: sigjuice: good! 2016-05-22T08:24:54Z Pastaf joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:25:36Z sigjuice: looks (ql:register-local-projects) updates the system-index.txt file that you mentioned. Thanks! 2016-05-22T08:25:56Z schally: actually, thank you very much. I didn't know about that 2016-05-22T08:26:06Z schally: I've added about 5 local projects manually 2016-05-22T08:26:12Z schally: XD 2016-05-22T08:28:10Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:29:11Z sigjuice: I deleted the system-index.txt file and (ql:r-l-p) made it again 2016-05-22T08:29:22Z mathrick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T08:29:53Z mathrick joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:31:39Z schally quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-22T08:31:56Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-22T08:33:18Z bikeshedr__ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:33:29Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:34:36Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-22T08:37:52Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T08:42:09Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:43:14Z ggole_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:46:03Z ggole__ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T08:50:28Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T08:51:56Z jackdaniel: hey 2016-05-22T08:53:29Z moore33: howdy from France rurale... 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#lisp 2016-05-22T13:16:21Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T13:16:56Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:19:28Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:20:15Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:20:32Z didi: Crazy idea: (equalp "á" "a") => t 2016-05-22T13:26:08Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T13:26:44Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:28:43Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:32:27Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:33:11Z scottj quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-22T13:35:22Z phoe_krk: It *is* crazy. 2016-05-22T13:35:50Z phoe_krk: (asciify "á") => "a" 2016-05-22T13:35:56Z phoe_krk: This sounds like a much better idea. 2016-05-22T13:36:21Z didi: Crazy and useful! 2016-05-22T13:39:44Z dpg quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T13:39:49Z phoe_krk: didi: two *different* strings should *never* be EQ, EQL, EQUAL, EQUALP, STRING= or STRING-EQUAL. 2016-05-22T13:40:13Z didi: But (equal "Foo" "foo") => t 2016-05-22T13:40:19Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:40:26Z didi: Sorry, equalp* 2016-05-22T13:40:58Z phoe_krk: This only works for case-sensitivity. 2016-05-22T13:41:11Z phoe_krk: Not for the whole hell of alternative latin-like letters. 2016-05-22T13:41:15Z didi: Yeap. And I am suggesting to expand it. 2016-05-22T13:41:50Z phoe_krk: Sounds like (equalp "あ" "a") => t 2016-05-22T13:42:03Z blub: some languages treat letters with accents as distinct letters, not just letters with accents 2016-05-22T13:42:14Z blub: case folding comparison isn't wrong for any languages 2016-05-22T13:42:36Z didi: The perils of using `equalp'. 2016-05-22T13:42:41Z didi: Let's duit! 2016-05-22T13:44:59Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T13:45:38Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T13:45:49Z papachan: whats the difference between equalp and equalp* ? 2016-05-22T13:46:57Z didi: papachan: There is no `equalp*', sorry. I added a `*' to mark it as a correction of an earlier mistake, i.e., when I used `equal' when I meant `equalp'. 2016-05-22T13:47:40Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:48:33Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T13:48:34Z DavidGuru1 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-22T13:48:56Z phoe_krk: equalp* compares the values given sequentially while equalp does it in parallel 2016-05-22T13:49:10Z didi: Heh. 2016-05-22T13:50:39Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:50:56Z Josh3 left #lisp 2016-05-22T13:54:37Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T13:56:19Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:56:37Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T13:58:32Z DavidGuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T13:59:14Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T13:59:38Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:00:12Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:00:35Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:01:30Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:01:42Z Josh2 left #lisp 2016-05-22T14:02:30Z papachan: thanks phoe_krk didi 2016-05-22T14:02:37Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:03:20Z phoe_krk: papachan: don't treat my advice seriously. 2016-05-22T14:05:18Z didi: phoe_krk: That's a tricky sentence. Nice. 2016-05-22T14:06:07Z beach: Ah, so in Swedish, steak with onion would really be EQUALP to steak with train engine. Brilliant idea! 2016-05-22T14:06:47Z didi: Swedish be crazy. 2016-05-22T14:06:58Z phoe_krk: beach: sounds correct, both taste about the same. 2016-05-22T14:07:10Z beach: Yeah, let's ban languages other than English. 2016-05-22T14:07:34Z phoe_krk: beach: I think it used to be like that once, like, before Unicode. 2016-05-22T14:12:56Z Pastaf quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:12:58Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:14:32Z isoraqathedh: blub: Case-folding fails for Klingon, where . Then again, it is a fictional language. 2016-05-22T14:14:38Z pastaf joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:15:19Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-22T14:16:21Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:16:21Z DavidGuru quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-22T14:17:15Z creat quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:17:16Z Josh2 quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-22T14:17:36Z Josh2 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:19:38Z creat joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:19:45Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T14:20:17Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:21:45Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:24:46Z dwchandler: hmm? onion is lök and train engine is what? 2016-05-22T14:25:07Z dwchandler: Jag vet inte 2016-05-22T14:29:50Z jdz: blub: what about "ß"? 2016-05-22T14:31:11Z papachan: what about "Bordeaux Threads" ? :p 2016-05-22T14:31:42Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:32:32Z bmilk left #lisp 2016-05-22T14:33:23Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:33:37Z blub: jdz: what do you mean, it just sorts as ss anyway doesn't it 2016-05-22T14:34:44Z jdz: and for equality comparison? 2016-05-22T14:34:55Z jdz: you sure it's "ss" and not "sz"? 2016-05-22T14:35:35Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T14:35:36Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:35:36Z jdz: i personally have no idea, but i would not claim what you did 2016-05-22T14:35:42Z blub: i only took german for a couple years but i'm pretty sure 2016-05-22T14:36:36Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:36:38Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-22T14:36:59Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:37:02Z jdz: well, i'm now looking at wikipedia, which says: «If no ß is available, ss or sz is used instead (sz especially in Hungarian-influenced eastern Austria).» 2016-05-22T14:37:51Z jdz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ß#Substitution_and_all_caps 2016-05-22T14:37:56Z phoe_krk: (either "sz" "ss") 2016-05-22T14:38:15Z jdz: the context was EQUALP 2016-05-22T14:38:43Z phoe_krk: so, um 2016-05-22T14:38:54Z phoe_krk: (EQUALP "ß" "sz") ;=> T 2016-05-22T14:38:56Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:38:57Z phoe_krk: (EQUALP "ß" "ss") ;=> T 2016-05-22T14:39:01Z phoe_krk: (EQUALP "ss" "sz") ;=> T 2016-05-22T14:39:04Z phoe_krk: awit wait 2016-05-22T14:39:12Z phoe_krk: (EQUALP "ss" "sz") ;=> NIL 2016-05-22T14:39:15Z phoe_krk: now this makes sense 2016-05-22T14:39:32Z papachan quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T14:39:41Z phoe_krk: A equalps B, A equalps C, therefore B does not equalp C 2016-05-22T14:40:20Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:41:29Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:41:55Z blub: (string-upcase "ß") ;=> "ß" 2016-05-22T14:42:37Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T14:44:54Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:46:18Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:50:03Z didi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T14:50:27Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:52:41Z pepton4 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:54:58Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:55:22Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T14:56:08Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T14:56:18Z pepton3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T14:57:07Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:00:17Z Josh3 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:00:20Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:00:49Z Jos`sanic joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:01:10Z Josh2 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:01:11Z Josh3 is now known as Josh2 2016-05-22T15:02:28Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:04:43Z jokleinn quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:11:58Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T15:15:11Z whiteline quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T15:16:20Z whiteline joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:16:24Z bikeshedr__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:19:43Z beach: dwchandler: lok. 2016-05-22T15:21:12Z beach: An abbreviation of "lokomitiv". 2016-05-22T15:26:18Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:31:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:32:31Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:34:50Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-22T15:34:52Z mfsa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:37:32Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:41:58Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T15:43:32Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T15:47:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:04:47Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/static/files/misc/bench.html some benchmarks 2016-05-22T16:05:41Z mfsa: hey, I'm trying to run example app using cl-sdl, cl-opengl on Windows: http://paste.lisp.org/+6S9C . I've downloaded https://www.libsdl.org/release/SDL2-devel-2.0.4-VC.zip and added x64 bin folder to my path. I'm getting error: Call-by-value not implemented yet for AUTOWRAP::C-MALLOC. Could you perhaps help me with this? 2016-05-22T16:06:05Z jackdaniel: mfsa: what common lisp implementation do you use? 2016-05-22T16:06:11Z mfsa: sbcl 2016-05-22T16:06:59Z mfsa: i don't have a strong urge to use sbcl, so if there is anything which will work out of the box i'll switch 2016-05-22T16:08:03Z mfsa: I'm super newbie to cl so I might have missed some important steps 2016-05-22T16:08:44Z jackdaniel: I haven't worked on libsdl, but people on #lispgames may know more 2016-05-22T16:08:57Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeverDie 2016-05-22T16:08:59Z mfsa: thanks! i'll check with the, 2016-05-22T16:11:48Z wooden_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T16:12:56Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T16:12:56Z trasto quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T16:13:41Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:14:40Z wooden_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:15:21Z pllx joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:18:27Z pastaf is now known as Pastaf 2016-05-22T16:20:12Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:20:34Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:21:29Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:23:27Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:25:02Z pllx quit (Quit: zz) 2016-05-22T16:26:07Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:26:59Z andrei-n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T16:28:02Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:30:23Z npo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:31:04Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:34:25Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-22T16:35:13Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:35:33Z Aethiles quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:35:48Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:35:52Z Aethiles joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:36:45Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:44:22Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:44:53Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-22T16:47:46Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:48:49Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:52:59Z dim: I'd check with CCL just because CCL is a solid implementation 2016-05-22T16:53:17Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:53:33Z yang quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:53:42Z dim: well ECL is too, albeit arguably with a specific purpose rather than targeting the general case 2016-05-22T16:54:44Z dreamaddict: how do I check what reader macros are active? like, a big table so that I know what hasn't been taken yet 2016-05-22T16:56:31Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T16:56:39Z Bike: well, you can see if there's a macro on a particular character with get-macro-character. 2016-05-22T16:58:36Z payphone quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T16:58:46Z phoe_krk: dreamaddict: you can inspect the *READTABLE*. 2016-05-22T16:59:19Z phoe_krk: Type '*readtable* into SLIME REPL, R-click the returned value, click Inspect, click on the symbol's value. 2016-05-22T16:59:38Z phoe_krk: You should be able to poke your nose into that structure's internals. SBCL, which I use, allows you to. 2016-05-22T17:00:27Z phoe_krk: In SBCL, there's a character-macro-array in there that you should be able to poke your nose into. 2016-05-22T17:00:30Z d4ryus is now known as Guest83512 2016-05-22T17:00:30Z Guest83512 quit (Killed (adams.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-22T17:00:30Z d4ryus joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:00:48Z phoe_krk: And there's a character-macro-hash-table that I guess is for characters with code higher than 128.' 2016-05-22T17:01:05Z dreamaddict: ah, you right click the thing 2016-05-22T17:03:04Z dreamaddict: heh, I tried to make a macro for ql, like (ql-use lib another-lib third-lib etc) 2016-05-22T17:04:40Z Bike: quickload takes a list 2016-05-22T17:04:49Z dreamaddict: true 2016-05-22T17:05:23Z dreamaddict: but then I wanted to wrap it in (eval-when (:load :compile :execute)), and that doesn't seem to work yet 2016-05-22T17:06:38Z Bike: it should be :load-toplevel and :compile-toplevel. 2016-05-22T17:07:15Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:07:28Z dreamaddict: the exact macro I have is (defmacro eval-always (&rest body) `(eval-when :compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute ,@body)) 2016-05-22T17:07:59Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:08:02Z dreamaddict: then I made (defmacro ql-use (&rest libs) `(eval-always (ql:quickload (,@libs)))) 2016-05-22T17:08:43Z dreamaddict: which expands properly, but doesn't execute at the right time...if I type (ql-use mylibs) into the REPL first, it works...but doesn't expand right when you just compile the file 2016-05-22T17:08:52Z dreamaddict: that's because I made the macro wrong, obviously 2016-05-22T17:09:27Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T17:09:43Z dreamaddict: also that is supposed to be (ql:quickload '(,@libs)) 2016-05-22T17:09:58Z Pastaf left #lisp 2016-05-22T17:10:12Z Bike: and (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute), i would think. 2016-05-22T17:10:25Z dreamaddict: eval-always is that 2016-05-22T17:10:39Z dreamaddict: oh wait, screw this here's my pastebin 2016-05-22T17:10:40Z Bike: i mean, the way you wrote the eval-when form is wrong. 2016-05-22T17:11:40Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316564 2016-05-22T17:11:49Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T17:11:50Z dreamaddict: that's what there actually is 2016-05-22T17:12:03Z Bike: okay. looks right to me. 2016-05-22T17:13:08Z Bike: yep. works. 2016-05-22T17:13:25Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T17:13:52Z dreamaddict: well damn it worked that time 2016-05-22T17:14:26Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:14:33Z dreamaddict: the only more I would want out of it is some way to hook it into SLIME *before* it compiles 2016-05-22T17:14:55Z dreamaddict: that way, autocomplete in emacs and whatnot could work as you type the code 2016-05-22T17:18:14Z Bike: usually i just load dependencies myself. after all, there could be situations where they're broken or missing, and then i don't want to get errors just for opening a file. 2016-05-22T17:18:56Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T17:19:04Z Bike: or for opening a file to take thirty seconds as opticl loads 2016-05-22T17:19:38Z dreamaddict: true 2016-05-22T17:19:57Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:19:59Z dreamaddict: it looks like I should just get used to typing it in the REPL first if that's what I want 2016-05-22T17:20:03Z npo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T17:20:18Z dreamaddict: REPL first, it auto-completes the rest of the document, otherwise basically it's good as is 2016-05-22T17:20:21Z dreamaddict: so much for that :P 2016-05-22T17:20:56Z npo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:21:24Z dim: slowly adapting generic functions and methods everywhere in API definitions... makes all the things easier down in maintenance, it seems 2016-05-22T17:22:05Z mfranzwa` joined #lisp 2016-05-22T17:22:33Z Tordek quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T17:24:24Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-22T18:18:08Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:20:43Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:20:57Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:25:44Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T18:25:48Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:25:52Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T18:27:31Z mfranzwa` joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:28:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:29:15Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T18:29:27Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:29:49Z circ-user-pJxZ1 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:30:19Z papachan: What "Condition of type uiop/lisp-build:compile-file-error" means? 2016-05-22T18:30:21Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:30:48Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:31:32Z nalik891 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:31:35Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T18:32:51Z dim: I would guess that uiop failed to compile a file? 2016-05-22T18:33:10Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-22T18:33:24Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T18:35:44Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:37:13Z papachan: thats weird should show the error, not just it cannot compile 2016-05-22T18:38:13Z pjb: dreamaddict: you can use: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.tools.reader-macro) (com.informatimago.tools.reader-macro:list-all-macro-characters) 2016-05-22T18:39:38Z pjb: dreamaddict: your ,@body is not in the right place in eval-always! 2016-05-22T18:40:25Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T18:40:37Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:41:30Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:43:24Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for knobo: If you are using SBCL, you can use (trace :break t) to stop before entering the function and from there you can step. There is also a :print option which may be useful to debug. 2016-05-22T18:43:24Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell knobo when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-05-22T18:44:34Z knobo: PuercoPop: thanx 2016-05-22T18:44:34Z minion: knobo, memo from PuercoPop: If you are using SBCL, you can use (trace :break t) to stop before entering the function and from there you can step. There is also a :print option which may be useful to debug. 2016-05-22T18:44:44Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-22T18:45:55Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:46:11Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:47:06Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:47:24Z PuercoPop: knobo: you can also pass predicate to break only when the expression evaluates to true iirc. I'm sure other implementations have similar extensions 2016-05-22T18:48:21Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:48:44Z gilez is now known as Guest17697 2016-05-22T18:52:18Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:56:40Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T18:56:48Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-22T18:58:16Z davsebamse joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:06:06Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:07:35Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:10:18Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:10:39Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:13:05Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:14:50Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:16:17Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:17:14Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-22T19:17:59Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:17:59Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T19:21:10Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:23:22Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:24:39Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:25:15Z Guest17697 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:25:15Z didi quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:27:00Z random-nickname joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:27:14Z random-nick quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:27:21Z random-nickname is now known as random-nick 2016-05-22T19:28:07Z mfranzwa` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:28:38Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-22T19:32:34Z munksgaard quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:32:52Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T19:37:10Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:39:52Z axion: With CLOS, is it possible for an instance to inherit a parent class after instantiation? 2016-05-22T19:42:51Z knobo: axion: no, but maybe change-class could be a solution? 2016-05-22T19:42:51Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T19:43:06Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T19:43:24Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:44:18Z knobo: PuercoPop: But I wanted to step through the function. 2016-05-22T19:44:23Z knobo: not just trace 2016-05-22T19:46:09Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:46:22Z Bike: axion: instances don't have parent classes. they have a class, one class, which has whatever inheritance. 2016-05-22T19:47:40Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:47:50Z axion: I guess what I'm asking, is if it is possible to add a collection of slots from a few classes not added at instantiation time 2016-05-22T19:48:01Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:48:02Z pjb: Yes. 2016-05-22T19:48:04Z PuercoPop: axion: it is not instances that inherit, but classes, you may find https://github.com/zkat/sheeple or if you want *just* that instance to have that parent class you can create an ad-hoc class with (ensure-class ..) and add the new parent and then change-class to that class 2016-05-22T19:48:17Z pjb: axion: you can redefine a class, add new superclasses, or just add new slots to an existing class. 2016-05-22T19:48:28Z pjb: axion: with the MOP (closer-mop) 2016-05-22T19:48:51Z axion: Ok, I'll look into that. I'm just trying to extend the slots available while keeping identity, and its original slots 2016-05-22T19:49:27Z PuercoPop: knobo: one can step from the Slime debugger, so after break press s iirc 2016-05-22T19:50:19Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:51:01Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-22T19:51:20Z joneshf-laptop quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T19:51:25Z pjb: axion: notice that adding new slots at run-time is rather useless, since you don't have code using the new accessors. 2016-05-22T19:51:42Z pjb: axion: it might be a better idea to have a slot containing a plist of run-time properties. 2016-05-22T19:52:21Z PuercoPop: knobo: http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ 2016-05-22T19:52:45Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-22T19:53:17Z axion: pjb: Ok, with closer-mop what function would be to add superclasses like you mentioned? 2016-05-22T19:54:10Z bikeshedr__ joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:57:00Z pjb: axion: see for example https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/clext/association.lisp 2016-05-22T19:57:10Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T19:57:32Z pjb: axion: notably define-association; it adds slots to implement the associations. 2016-05-22T19:57:55Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:57:56Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T19:58:20Z tmtwd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-22T19:58:58Z pjb: axion: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/clext/association.lisp#L513 2016-05-22T19:59:09Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-22T19:59:37Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:01:36Z axion: Thanks 2016-05-22T20:02:03Z Ven quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:04:35Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:08:27Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:11:10Z _sjs quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-22T20:11:36Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:12:49Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:13:15Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T20:15:01Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:16:38Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:22:56Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:24:31Z tmtwd joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:25:03Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:26:41Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:27:51Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:28:04Z bullets quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T20:28:31Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:30:23Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:30:24Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:32:04Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-22T20:32:06Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:32:27Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T20:34:44Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:34:51Z random-nick quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-22T20:35:08Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:35:36Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:39:21Z knobo: PuercoPop: which lisps support stepping? 2016-05-22T20:40:50Z pjb: knobo: all conforming implementations, with cl-stepper. 2016-05-22T20:40:58Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:41:16Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T20:41:26Z pjb: ccl stepper is not functional. AFAIK, the other implementations have some level of stepping or tracing. 2016-05-22T20:44:42Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:47:08Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:48:33Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:49:04Z PuercoPop: knobo: I'm unsure as I've never stepped through Code when debugging, sly provides sly-stickers which is what I use most of the times I would otherwise want to step. But as pjb mention his cl-stepper is portable/conforming code so it should run in any conforming CL implementation 2016-05-22T20:52:16Z ryan_vw`` joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:54:28Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:55:03Z ryan_vw` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-22T20:56:21Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T20:58:02Z Joreji joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:58:09Z OrangeShark joined #lisp 2016-05-22T20:58:56Z knobo: I remember I used lispworks about 10 years ago, and it had a quite good stepper. 2016-05-22T21:00:36Z knobo: It could be a false memory, though. 2016-05-22T21:01:45Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-22T21:04:05Z random-nick joined #lisp 2016-05-22T21:04:34Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-22T21:05:12Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-22T21:06:42Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-22T21:06:54Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-22T21:07:00Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-22T21:11:05Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 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That the -test treated as the test package for by default? 2016-05-23T02:41:33Z papachan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T02:42:04Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T02:45:07Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-23T02:46:24Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T02:49:39Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T02:57:17Z louxiu joined #lisp 2016-05-23T02:57:19Z nalik891 quit (Quit: Going home) 2016-05-23T02:57:59Z louxiu left #lisp 2016-05-23T03:01:22Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-23T03:01:37Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:04:12Z schally quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:04:58Z arescorpio joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:06:03Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:17:37Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:18:27Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T03:30:41Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T03:32:44Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:34:38Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:37:26Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:39:46Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-23T03:40:49Z Xal quit (Quit: restarting) 2016-05-23T03:41:05Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:42:44Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:42:48Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T03:44:51Z ryan_vw`` quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:45:43Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:49:15Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:49:17Z adolf_stalin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T03:49:44Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-23T03:49:55Z m0li quit (Quit: .) 2016-05-23T03:52:09Z blub: hi beach 2016-05-23T03:53:14Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T03:53:41Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-23T03:54:03Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T03:54:53Z theos left #lisp 2016-05-23T03:55:54Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-23T04:00:28Z Xal quit (Quit: (.Xdefaults change)) 2016-05-23T04:00:45Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T04:01:02Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-23T04:01:42Z dmiles: has anyuone here use KnowledgeWorks? 2016-05-23T04:03:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T04:04:28Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T04:06:29Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T04:08:13Z impulse joined #lisp 2016-05-23T04:14:14Z temp quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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I have problem with Linux wifi. Is there any lisp that would work on NetBSD? Preferable something that can also access C libraries for gpio access. 2016-05-23T10:30:55Z shka_: engblom: i'm pretty sure yes 2016-05-23T10:31:11Z shka_: person that ported .net to netbsd is a lisper 2016-05-23T10:31:13Z shka_: :-) 2016-05-23T10:31:14Z jackdaniel: engblom: afaik sbcl works on netbsd, ccl may work too, ecl works there, you shouldn't find it problematic to find lisp for it 2016-05-23T10:33:00Z engblom: jackdaniel: http://sbcl.org/platform-table.html <--- There is a yellow square for NetBSD. 2016-05-23T10:33:34Z jackdaniel: ah, its armhf 2016-05-23T10:33:39Z jackdaniel: right 2016-05-23T10:33:48Z jackdaniel: I know for sure that ecl works there just fine 2016-05-23T10:33:51Z engblom: The only thing I have got running is abcl and it is ridiculously slow because openjdk for armhf lacks JIT. 2016-05-23T10:34:01Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:34:03Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:34:25Z jackdaniel: regarding the sbcl or ccl ask on the appropriate channels to be sure (#sbcl, #ccl) 2016-05-23T10:37:19Z engblom: I already tried to compile sbcl on netbsd armhf, and it segfaults. I am asking the CCL people what they think 2016-05-23T10:38:45Z bp0yt joined #lisp 2016-05-23T10:43:01Z groovy2shoes: why are you asking the CCL people what they think? and not... the SBCL people? 2016-05-23T10:43:19Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:43:47Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-23T10:44:36Z groovy2shoes: also, isn't the NetBSD port for the RPi considered experimental at the moment? iirc, it was just one guy working on it in his spare time, and he wasn't primarily targeting the RPi, but another board with a similar arch 2016-05-23T10:45:12Z engblom: groovy2shoes: I am asking the CCL people what they think about CCL. My wordings where a bit wrong. I meant that there is no purpose in asking further about sbcl. 2016-05-23T10:45:21Z groovy2shoes: ah, sorry, I misunderstood 2016-05-23T10:45:28Z engblom: s/where/were/ 2016-05-23T10:45:54Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T10:47:03Z engblom: Here is a list of all packages for netbsd on armhf: ftp://ftp.pkgsrc.org/pub/pkgsrc/packages/NetBSD/earmv7hf/7.0/All/ 2016-05-23T10:47:24Z engblom: I can not find any CL implementation in that list, but there are a few other lisp variants. 2016-05-23T10:48:09Z groovy2shoes: I'd be surprised if you couldn't get one of ECL, GCL, or clisp to work 2016-05-23T10:48:24Z groovy2shoes: failing that, there's always Scheme ;) 2016-05-23T10:48:53Z groovy2shoes: Racket works, but it's a bit of a memory hog and I couldn't get it to be anywhere near performant on my RPi... but Gambit-C works like a dream 2016-05-23T10:49:05Z engblom: I am actually really liking Clojure, so in one way would Scheme be actually closer 2016-05-23T10:49:40Z groovy2shoes: well, they're both Lisp-1's, but the similarities pretty much end there, to be honest 2016-05-23T10:50:03Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:50:07Z groovy2shoes: I think apart from the namespace thing, Clojure is probably closer to CL, really 2016-05-23T10:50:28Z engblom: I was considering to pick up one lisp more for broading the little knowledge I got. It does not matter much what lisp it is as long as it run fast and well on rpi and I can use C libraries for gpio 2016-05-23T10:51:20Z groovy2shoes: the beauty of Lisp, though, is that most dialects have a very small core, and the rest is all just libraries, so in a sense you could *make* Scheme very Clojure-esque with the right set of libraries and macros... but that'd be quite a bit of work 2016-05-23T10:51:40Z groovy2shoes: Gambit-C fits the bill, then 2016-05-23T10:51:49Z groovy2shoes: I wonder if Chez Scheme works on the RPi... hmm... 2016-05-23T10:51:58Z groovy2shoes: I'd give ECL a shot, though 2016-05-23T10:52:21Z jackdaniel: I'm not objective, but ECL seems like a good choice ;) 2016-05-23T10:52:28Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-23T10:52:33Z groovy2shoes: nice implementation, compiles to C, so as long as you've got gcc, you'll get decent performance and the C interop you want 2016-05-23T10:52:42Z engblom: ECL also lack package for NetBSD. Will have to see if it compiles 2016-05-23T10:52:55Z groovy2shoes: it should 2016-05-23T10:53:03Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T10:53:15Z groovy2shoes: iirc, you don't need any complicated bootstrap or anything to compile it 2016-05-23T10:53:17Z jackdaniel: it works on netbsd, but didn't try it on arm (it works on Linux + arm though) 2016-05-23T10:53:21Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-23T10:53:28Z groovy2shoes: the entire core is written in C, and then it "bootstraps" itself from there 2016-05-23T10:53:32Z jackdaniel: ./configure --prefix=/my/lisp/path && make && make install 2016-05-23T10:53:39Z engblom: groovy2shoes: It depends. NetBSD does not have the GNU version of libc, so sometimes separate porting is need for stuff to compile 2016-05-23T10:53:55Z groovy2shoes: works fine for me on OpenBSD 2016-05-23T10:53:55Z jackdaniel: engblom: ecl works on *bsd family including netbsd 2016-05-23T10:54:14Z engblom: jackdaniel: Thanks, I will test it! 2016-05-23T10:54:26Z jackdaniel: cool :) 2016-05-23T10:54:42Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T10:57:39Z bp0yt left #lisp 2016-05-23T10:58:22Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:00:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:01:00Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:03:19Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:03:19Z specbot quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:03:22Z easye quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T11:04:11Z groovy2shoes: bit of a tangent, but damn I hate glibc 2016-05-23T11:04:31Z groovy2shoes: probably all Ulrich Drepper's fault, in any case, I'm convinced RedHat is a bad actor 2016-05-23T11:04:42Z engblom: I just got a new SD card, so once I got NetBSD installed, I will begin to test 2016-05-23T11:05:32Z engblom: groovy2shoes: Redhat is the source of systemd also :/ 2016-05-23T11:05:51Z jackdaniel: I've recently accepted some patch from uclibc guys 2016-05-23T11:05:56Z jackdaniel: so I suppose it builds against it as well 2016-05-23T11:06:22Z engblom: jackdaniel: How is it with musl? 2016-05-23T11:06:25Z groovy2shoes: engblom, I know :( 2016-05-23T11:06:40Z jackdaniel: engblom: I don't know, try it, I'll be glad for a feedback on this 2016-05-23T11:06:49Z jackdaniel: so I will be able to say to the next person: yeah, musl works too! ;) 2016-05-23T11:06:57Z groovy2shoes: they do a lot of good for Linux, but, imo, just as much bad... shame 2016-05-23T11:07:08Z minion joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:07:08Z specbot joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:07:17Z groovy2shoes: I think it's because they want to exert control over the entire Linux stack 2016-05-23T11:07:46Z groovy2shoes: I've thought about starting a distribution that uses the Linux kernel and BSD everything else 2016-05-23T11:08:11Z groovy2shoes: people would be like, "GNU/Linux" and I'd be like, "No, bitch, BSD/Linux" 2016-05-23T11:08:23Z engblom: :) 2016-05-23T11:08:27Z jackdaniel: gnu is fine ,) 2016-05-23T11:08:36Z jackdaniel: SystemD/Linux is bad 2016-05-23T11:08:48Z groovy2shoes: then I can have the glory of OpenBSD's man pages and have my wifi actually work on my laptop ;) 2016-05-23T11:08:58Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T11:09:02Z groovy2shoes: without, you know... just installing the OpenBSD man pages... 2016-05-23T11:09:23Z engblom: GNU got a few good products, but most of the time it is donated code. Maxima is one such case. It was not created by the GNU people 2016-05-23T11:09:28Z groovy2shoes: though I have a feeling the NetBSD userland would be easier to port, if it doesn't already work 2016-05-23T11:10:18Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, yeah, GNU is fine, but mostly just the pieces that various corporations who leech off of open source haven't shit on 2016-05-23T11:10:51Z jn__: a BSD/Linux distro would be a nice counterpart to Gentoo/BSD and "Debian GNU/kFreeBSD" 2016-05-23T11:10:53Z engblom: groovy2shoes: For some reason I have always had better success with wifi on BSD. I have had plenty of trouble with wifi in BSD 2016-05-23T11:11:05Z groovy2shoes: jn__, yeah, wouldn't it? 2016-05-23T11:11:16Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T11:11:46Z groovy2shoes: engblom, I've never had any problems with BSD *except* wifi problems (oh, and a sound problem once wayyyy back on FreeBSD 4, but it was easily fixed) 2016-05-23T11:12:12Z groovy2shoes: oh, and things like hibernate and suspend never work right :( 2016-05-23T11:12:50Z groovy2shoes: I've resolved to running Slackware and CRUX on my laptop, Raspbian on one of my RPis, and various BSDs on everything else 2016-05-23T11:13:08Z groovy2shoes: thinkig about giving RISC OS a whirl on the other RPi 2016-05-23T11:13:47Z josteink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T11:14:00Z groovy2shoes: only reason I keep Raspbian around rather than, say, Slackware/ARM, is because it comes with Mathematica fo' free! 2016-05-23T11:15:08Z josteink joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:15:10Z engblom: I am running my rpi headless, so any distro/os works for me as long as a simple 'reboot' at the prompt does not cause problem. At the moment it is running Arch and now I can not SSH into it anymore 2016-05-23T11:15:23Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: right 2016-05-23T11:15:57Z engblom: This kind of problems I had with Raspbian too. The Realtek wifi dongle often causes problem 2016-05-23T11:16:36Z groovy2shoes: I ditched Arch first when they adopted systemd, and then again when they decided they're for elitist hipsters only 2016-05-23T11:16:46Z groovy2shoes: (by getting rid of their installer) 2016-05-23T11:17:14Z engblom: This is the only arch installation I am running. I decided to give it a chance on rpi to see if it is a working distro at all. 2016-05-23T11:17:32Z groovy2shoes: (and no, I'm not upset that I couldn't figure out how to install it; I did install it, and as a CRUX user I follow a very similar installation process to the current Arch one, but my beef is that they *had* a perfectly good installer, and they got rid of it ON PURPOSE) 2016-05-23T11:18:13Z groovy2shoes: (oh, and the installation environment is nothing like the default environment you get when you first log in to the installed system... wtf is up with that?) 2016-05-23T11:18:36Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:18:57Z jackdaniel: I use ArchLinux on various embedded boards and on my desktop, but it isn't a production system for sure 2016-05-23T11:19:26Z jackdaniel: and it pisses me off all the time, but, well, I'm too used to it and I'd find hard to use something else like everyday 2016-05-23T11:20:36Z engblom: I hate to say it, but my current workstation is running ubuntu (installed from server iso image so I can pick stuff like windowmanager myself). 2016-05-23T11:20:45Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T11:21:05Z jackdaniel: ubuntu is nice imo, I've installed it on my mom's laptop 2016-05-23T11:21:06Z groovy2shoes: for what it's worth, pacman *is* pretty much the best package manager I've ever used 2016-05-23T11:21:20Z bikeshedr joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:21:25Z engblom: Earlier I used just openbsd on desktop, but the lack of virtualiztion forced me towards linux 2016-05-23T11:21:42Z groovy2shoes: they're working on it, fortunately 2016-05-23T11:22:27Z engblom: Yes 2016-05-23T11:22:39Z groovy2shoes: I really thought Arch was a great distro back when Judd was running the show 2016-05-23T11:23:16Z groovy2shoes: but since he stepped down they've switched to systemd (and in such a way that you really have no choice, unlike with Debian where if you know what you're doing you can switch to something else, or Gentoo for example) 2016-05-23T11:23:26Z groovy2shoes: and then they deleted the installer 2016-05-23T11:23:29Z groovy2shoes: for no good reason 2016-05-23T11:24:10Z engblom: It is about the same difficult both in Arch and Debian to get rid of systemd 2016-05-23T11:24:12Z groovy2shoes: only reason I can possibly think of is that they wanted to keep anyone who isn't an expert at zsh from installing their OS 2016-05-23T11:24:45Z groovy2shoes: engblom, is it? I haven't tried on either, but my cursory google search made it seem like it'd be much easier on debian 2016-05-23T11:25:05Z groovy2shoes: and it also made it seem like using an alternative is supported by debian, but not by arch 2016-05-23T11:25:21Z engblom: groovy2shoes: From my tries, it is difficult. There are documentation for how to get rid of systemd for arch too. Neither is easy. 2016-05-23T11:25:37Z jackdaniel: hrm, this discussion is definetely a better fit for #lispcafe :P 2016-05-23T11:25:43Z groovy2shoes: meh, I like Slackware and CRUX well enough 2016-05-23T11:25:57Z groovy2shoes: you're right, jackdaniel, my apologies 2016-05-23T11:26:01Z engblom: http://systemd-free.org/ <-- for arch 2016-05-23T11:26:02Z jackdaniel: mine too :) 2016-05-23T11:26:06Z groovy2shoes: and thanks for the tip, I didn't know about that channel :D 2016-05-23T11:26:10Z jackdaniel: heh 2016-05-23T11:26:23Z engblom: Neither did I! 2016-05-23T11:28:29Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-23T11:28:29Z vydd quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:31:36Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:33:50Z munksgaa1d joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:36:11Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:40:45Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:41:58Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:42:55Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T11:43:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:45:47Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:46:00Z brkr quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T11:46:06Z brkr joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:46:43Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T11:51:05Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T11:52:26Z papachan quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T11:54:43Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:00:19Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:01:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:01:41Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:03:51Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:03:54Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:04:15Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:05:17Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T12:05:39Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:10:20Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:10:44Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:16:31Z easye joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:17:50Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:17:50Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T12:20:19Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:22:32Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:22:40Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:23:01Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:24:13Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-23T12:25:59Z Josh_2 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T12:26:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T12:26:33Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:26:53Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:29:14Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:30:51Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:35:25Z peterh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:35:52Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:36:29Z Xack quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:38:26Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T12:39:01Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:40:10Z moore33: jackdaniel: Did you see this? https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 2016-05-23T12:40:39Z phoe_krk: moore33: he did 2016-05-23T12:40:47Z jackdaniel: I did! 2016-05-23T12:41:30Z moore33: jackdaniel: It's interesting to compare what we did, based only on the "spec," with the official implementation. 2016-05-23T12:41:49Z jackdaniel: yeah, that would be nice 2016-05-23T12:41:58Z jackdaniel: first I plan to clean up things though 2016-05-23T12:42:13Z jackdaniel: https://i.imgur.com/tyApMtF.png - whole mcclim with all optional stuff and deps 2016-05-23T12:42:28Z moore33: On the other hand, the code that interfaces with foreign toolkits like motif and Windows is incredibly twisted and hard to understand. 2016-05-23T12:42:31Z moore33: IMHO. 2016-05-23T12:42:53Z jackdaniel: we have cairogtk for instance 2016-05-23T12:43:20Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T12:43:25Z jackdaniel: gtkairo° 2016-05-23T12:44:03Z moore33: I think the whole "interface with native toolkits" obsession is profoundly uninteresting. Better to take over the world with a Lisp toolkit that works well and looks nice. No app that matters cares about native look and feel ;) 2016-05-23T12:44:47Z jackdaniel: I agree, but it has to look nice and estetic :) 2016-05-23T12:45:22Z moore33: Yeah, that has been lacking in McClim, with the exception of ahefner's efforts. 2016-05-23T12:50:11Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:52:06Z papachan joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:52:24Z papachan: Morning soemone can tell me what uiop means? 2016-05-23T12:52:56Z papachan: i am just a little bit confuse when i have the uiop error from the compiler 2016-05-23T12:53:11Z phoe_krk: UIOP is basically a portability/system layer for ASDF. 2016-05-23T12:53:13Z blackwolf quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T12:53:35Z phoe_krk: papachan: what sort of error is this and what is the file it errors out on? 2016-05-23T12:54:04Z phoe_krk: Can you open the file in Emacs and hit C-c C-k (manual compilation) on it? 2016-05-23T12:54:20Z papachan: well yersterday i finally fix my error it was from some file when i try to load the project again 2016-05-23T12:54:26Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:54:42Z igam: moore33: that said, they wrote this libui in C: https://github.com/andlabs/libui 2016-05-23T12:54:42Z papachan: but i didnt get the line where the compiler conplaint} 2016-05-23T12:54:54Z phoe_krk: Open the file that does not compile in Emacs. 2016-05-23T12:54:57Z phoe_krk: C-c C-k. 2016-05-23T12:55:01Z phoe_krk: Tell me if it compiles. 2016-05-23T12:55:02Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T12:55:10Z papachan: right now yes 2016-05-23T12:55:16Z papachan: because i rewrite the method 2016-05-23T12:55:21Z papachan: and it compile fine 2016-05-23T12:55:35Z papachan: so next time i will try to compile from the file 2016-05-23T12:55:46Z papachan: directly from the file and see if slime show me the error 2016-05-23T12:56:02Z Zackio joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:56:12Z phoe_krk: Okay. Restart inferior-lisp and try to load the file. 2016-05-23T12:56:13Z papachan: i reload the project to make run the test 2016-05-23T12:56:55Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-23T12:57:35Z moore33: igam: If you are actually going to save work by using the native UI, then that's fine :) 2016-05-23T13:01:25Z sepi`: how can I transform a string into some type that lets me XOR it with another string? 2016-05-23T13:02:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T13:03:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:03:28Z jdz: sepi`: you probably want to use numbers, not strings 2016-05-23T13:03:37Z jdz: clhs parse-integer 2016-05-23T13:03:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm 2016-05-23T13:03:51Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:03:53Z jdz: clhs logxor 2016-05-23T13:03:54Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm 2016-05-23T13:04:38Z sepi`: jdz: well, I want to XOR a long string with a string of #\x chars 2016-05-23T13:05:25Z jdz: sepi`: not sure what you mean 2016-05-23T13:05:31Z jdz: sepi`: can you give an example? 2016-05-23T13:05:32Z phoe_krk: define "XOR a long string" 2016-05-23T13:05:37Z sepi`: trying to figure out what some script kiddie is doing to a wordpress installation of a friend of mine 2016-05-23T13:06:18Z phoe_krk: basically: loop for char across original-string collect (...) 2016-05-23T13:06:37Z phoe_krk: where ... is: first you turn the char into code, then XOR it with #\x, then you turn it back into char. 2016-05-23T13:06:42Z phoe_krk: And then you coerce the result into a string. 2016-05-23T13:06:59Z sepi`: (defparameter *data* (cl-base64:bas64-string-to-string "blubblob)) shall by xored bytewise with the char #\x 2016-05-23T13:07:19Z sepi`: phoe_krk: oh, that makes sense 2016-05-23T13:08:00Z phoe_krk: sepi`: the power of loop :P 2016-05-23T13:08:09Z phoe_krk: and all its derivatives like iterate 2016-05-23T13:09:25Z phoe_krk: I mean. 2016-05-23T13:09:34Z phoe_krk: XOR it with the code of #\x, not #\x itself. 2016-05-23T13:09:59Z phoe_krk: Oh, wait, you have base64 in there? 2016-05-23T13:10:17Z phoe_krk: Do you need to perform the conversion on base64-encoded stuff? 2016-05-23T13:10:22Z sepi`: the original data is base64 2016-05-23T13:10:34Z phoe_krk: Oh. 2016-05-23T13:10:39Z sepi`: no, on base64 decoded stuff 2016-05-23T13:10:46Z phoe_krk: I think it should work fine then. 2016-05-23T13:14:34Z zalatovo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T13:14:35Z toomuchtvrotsurb joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:14:48Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-23T13:14:59Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:15:07Z groovy2shoes quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T13:16:23Z phoe_krk: welp, 100% of mah CPU is gone. 2016-05-23T13:17:16Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:17:16Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T13:18:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T13:18:32Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:20:13Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:21:09Z igam: phoe_krk: top and see what consumes, then kill. 2016-05-23T13:22:28Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:22:31Z phoe_krk: igam: I can't and I don't want to. it's Clasp. :P 2016-05-23T13:22:47Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:23:54Z igam: Bourne leaving his shell, and coming to lisp! Yay! :-) 2016-05-23T13:24:41Z jn__: the bourne shell is dead, long live the lisp repl 2016-05-23T13:26:21Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T13:26:57Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:27:32Z ramky quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T13:28:00Z sepi`: phoe_krk: that did it. Unfortunately there is now som encoding problem I guess http://paste.lisp.org/display/316637 Only the first few hundrer bytes seem to be ascii 2016-05-23T13:28:08Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:28:41Z phoe_krk: sepi`: what's your OS and implementation? 2016-05-23T13:31:02Z igam: Don't use Char-code and code-char! This is implementation dependent! 2016-05-23T13:31:17Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:31:25Z igam: sepi`: use your own encoding/decoding as SPECIFIED by your file format or algorithm. 2016-05-23T13:32:29Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:32:36Z phoe_krk: igam: I didn't know that. 2016-05-23T13:33:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T13:33:26Z igam: sepi`: use BASE64-STRING-TO-USB8-ARRAY instead of to-string, since you want to process bytes. 2016-05-23T13:33:44Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:34:16Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:34:52Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:36:09Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T13:36:39Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:38:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:39:28Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:39:59Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:40:00Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:41:18Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:44:40Z sepi`: igam: it seems that the input data is broken 2016-05-23T13:45:14Z sepi`: at least php returns the same broken data and the "decryptetd" string is supposed to be evaled by php 2016-05-23T13:46:13Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:48:36Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:52:40Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:54:04Z igam: sepi`: I've got that impression too. 2016-05-23T13:54:04Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T13:54:17Z igam: Why the xor? It's rather useless, cryptographically. 2016-05-23T13:54:45Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T13:54:46Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:54:47Z maucar quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-23T13:55:11Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:57:20Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:57:50Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:58:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-23T13:59:32Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:00:42Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:02:31Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:03:46Z aeth quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:06:53Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:08:47Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:09:27Z munksgaa1d quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-23T14:11:58Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-23T14:12:27Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:12:30Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:13:03Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T14:13:03Z Blkt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T14:14:01Z BitPuffin|osx joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:14:22Z Blkt joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:14:48Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:15:33Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2016-05-23T14:15:40Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix 2016-05-23T14:17:39Z sepi`: igam: that's what a friend found in his wordpress template. Ironically the base64 encoded data didn't make it through the copy/paste from the admin interface. Also, yeah the xor is useless except against simple malware detection algorithms. 2016-05-23T14:17:41Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:17:46Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T14:19:52Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:23:14Z igam: sepi`: perhaps there's a different x for xor for each block? At what offset does it go bad? 2016-05-23T14:23:20Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:25:31Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:26:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:26:31Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:28:20Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:29:54Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:37:31Z agidyne joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:39:43Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:43:58Z phoe_krk: I just realized 2016-05-23T14:44:06Z hjudt_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:44:08Z hjudt_: hi! i am trying to read table data from an oracle database and got stuck dealing with blobs and 2016-05-23T14:44:14Z hjudt_: clobs. it seems clsql-oracle can't do this? is there a library which supports it? 2016-05-23T14:44:24Z phoe_krk: the argument that Common Lisp shouldn't be shortened to Lisp is like saying #common-lisp shouldn't be shortened to #lisp 2016-05-23T14:44:33Z phoe_krk hides 2016-05-23T14:45:17Z hjudt_: i am using sbcl 2016-05-23T14:46:58Z toomuchtvrotsurb quit 2016-05-23T14:47:54Z mood: hjudt_: It appears cl-rdbms supports Oracle. You could take a look at that. 2016-05-23T14:48:18Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:51:41Z akkad: jackdaniel: cl-bench does not like allegro :[ 2016-05-23T14:54:28Z jathd joined #lisp 2016-05-23T14:54:33Z jackdaniel: akkad: hrm, if you have any patch, please send it. I've tested it only on implementations I don't have pay for 2016-05-23T14:55:06Z jackdaniel: akkad: basically implementation-specific stuff is under read-time conditionals in cl-bench.lisp (toplevel directory) 2016-05-23T14:55:10Z akkad: yeah... I'm not that rich. I let work do that. 2016-05-23T14:55:42Z akkad: yeah I Saw. lw has stack over flow knobs. allegro does not appear to have any. 2016-05-23T14:56:20Z jackdaniel: someone posted diff on reddit, so I've just applied it 2016-05-23T14:56:22Z Xach: jackdaniel: I've had good luck asking LW and franz for no-cost licenses for quicklisp work. benchmarketing might be a different story, though. 2016-05-23T14:56:43Z eatonphil left #lisp 2016-05-23T14:56:46Z akkad: Xach, that's great. 2016-05-23T14:56:55Z shka: unless you promise to ensure that lw and franz will turn out to be super fast ;-) 2016-05-23T14:56:59Z akkad: but we both know that neither of these will bench well, typically, except perhaps in clos. 2016-05-23T14:57:15Z jackdaniel: Xach: did you get my e-mail regarding the McCLIM rss feed? 2016-05-23T14:57:46Z jackdaniel: maybe I'll ask them for free licences, never used allegro nor lw 2016-05-23T14:57:59Z Xach: I did 2016-05-23T14:58:00Z akkad: yeah their free ones have very small stack sizes 2016-05-23T14:58:01Z jackdaniel: but I think it won't be that easy indeed :) 2016-05-23T14:58:28Z akkad: jackdaniel: LW is very generous in their demoing 2016-05-23T14:58:29Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-05-23T14:58:38Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T14:58:38Z akkad: you can get a full enterprise working copy to evaluatate for 30 days. 2016-05-23T14:58:48Z jackdaniel: sounds good indeed 2016-05-23T14:58:56Z akkad: enterprise == 64/smp/... 2016-05-23T14:59:37Z jackdaniel: akkad: did you find the rest of cl-bench OK, or you had some issues? 2016-05-23T14:59:47Z jackdaniel: (of course if you did try it on something else than allegro) 2016-05-23T15:01:51Z akkad: jackdaniel: no still working through allegro 2016-05-23T15:02:30Z jackdaniel: right 2016-05-23T15:04:01Z engblom: jackdaniel: Look at this when compiling ecl: 2016-05-23T15:04:02Z engblom: --- libeclgc.a --- 2016-05-23T15:04:02Z engblom: make[3]: make[3]: don't know how to make ./libgc.la. Stop 2016-05-23T15:04:21Z engblom: Netbsd on armhf 2016-05-23T15:04:39Z mordocai: Xach: https://github.com/kingcons/coleslaw seems to be many months/commits ahead of quicklisp. I don't know if it is the official home or not. 2016-05-23T15:04:40Z jackdaniel: engblom: install first boehmgc, ecl apparently tries to build the one it has bundled 2016-05-23T15:05:02Z Xach: mordocai: I get it from https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6957356,-70.3140764,3a,75y,51.23h,71.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swli7agKVFWEqqzwPqZeUAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 2016-05-23T15:05:03Z jackdaniel: it's probably called libgc in the ports 2016-05-23T15:05:12Z Xach: err, sorry. that's me riding down the road on my bicycle. 2016-05-23T15:05:20Z jackdaniel: ^_^ 2016-05-23T15:05:23Z mordocai: hehe 2016-05-23T15:05:23Z Xach: i get it from https://github.com/redline6561/coleslaw.git 2016-05-23T15:05:51Z akkad: engblom: you building from source or pkgsrc? 2016-05-23T15:05:55Z Xach: github is flaking right now for me, though. 2016-05-23T15:06:14Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:06:17Z mordocai: Yeah, they are having issues 2016-05-23T15:06:27Z jackdaniel: indeed 2016-05-23T15:06:29Z mood: Xach: I believe redline6561 now redirects to kingcons 2016-05-23T15:06:42Z mood: Not sure how QL handles that 2016-05-23T15:06:45Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:06:54Z engblom: akkad: From source 2016-05-23T15:06:55Z Xach: Not sure. 2016-05-23T15:07:10Z Xach: mordocai: If you make a github issue for me, that will help me remember to move from redline to kingcons 2016-05-23T15:07:17Z engblom: akkad: I am still extracting pkgsrc but it takes time as SD cards are so slow 2016-05-23T15:07:25Z mordocai: Xach: Will do, as soon as github cooperates :) 2016-05-23T15:07:28Z Xach: Thanks 2016-05-23T15:07:50Z mood: Xach: The wayback machine reports a redirect to kingcons, so it appears I'm correct about that 2016-05-23T15:08:15Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:08:28Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:09:53Z akkad: engblom: yeah what jackdaniel said. cd /usr/pkgsrc/devel/boehm-gc && make install 2016-05-23T15:11:18Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:12:18Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T15:13:30Z Baggers quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:13:43Z engblom: akkad: I did 'pkg_add boehm-gc' instead to avoid as much compilation as possible 2016-05-23T15:13:52Z akkad: ahh ok. 2016-05-23T15:14:06Z akkad: was not sure if PKG_PATH was in your toolbox 2016-05-23T15:14:58Z engblom: I added PKG_PATH to my .zshrc 2016-05-23T15:16:36Z br0kenman quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:17:13Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:19:54Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:21:22Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-23T15:21:47Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:22:07Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T15:23:33Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:25:26Z vaitel joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:25:33Z engblom: hmm, still same error when compiling 2016-05-23T15:26:14Z engblom: I begin to wonder if there is a reason NetBSD does not have a ready ecl package for armhf 2016-05-23T15:27:21Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:27:39Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T15:30:25Z shifty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:31:16Z akkad: hmm, builds for me on arm. 2016-05-23T15:32:06Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:34:07Z Munksgaard left #lisp 2016-05-23T15:35:49Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:35:54Z dto joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:36:14Z dto: how can i get the error message text from a SIMPLE-ERROR condition instance? 2016-05-23T15:36:53Z xue_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:37:03Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:40:16Z dto: hmm. simple-condition-format-control 2016-05-23T15:43:27Z kobain quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T15:49:55Z hjudt_: mood: i was able to compile rdbms and rdbms-oracle, but not its documentation. maybe i can find the docs somewhere else on the web, as the origin website only shows test snippets for postgresql... 2016-05-23T15:49:56Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:50:56Z hjudt_: the clisp implementation seems to have an extension for oracle too. maybe i could try that if i can get clisp going together with asdf. 2016-05-23T15:51:59Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:55:07Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:55:51Z xue_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T15:56:23Z snits joined #lisp 2016-05-23T15:59:12Z briantrice_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:03:21Z dim: there's https://github.com/archimag/cl-oracle too 2016-05-23T16:05:42Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:05:42Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:06:52Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-23T16:08:43Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-23T16:12:20Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:12:44Z Xach: dto: (format nil "~A" error) 2016-05-23T16:12:54Z Xach: dto: prin-to-string also 2016-05-23T16:13:07Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:13:30Z dto: Xach: all i got with prin* was # 2016-05-23T16:13:32Z dto: and so on 2016-05-23T16:13:35Z dto: but thank you. 2016-05-23T16:13:52Z Xach: dto: then you must use a different prin* 2016-05-23T16:14:03Z dto: ah ok 2016-05-23T16:14:22Z Xach: princ is the thing 2016-05-23T16:14:28Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:14:36Z Xach: (princ-to-string error-object) => "error opening #P\"/bobble\": No such file or directory" 2016-05-23T16:15:27Z rgrau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T16:16:13Z dto: ah 2016-05-23T16:16:18Z dto: thanks :) 2016-05-23T16:16:57Z eschatologist quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-23T16:17:04Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:17:20Z dto: Xach i have ecl-android linked into SDL, running and starting swank with a big opengl blank screen and i'm working on getting something on screen today finally. 2016-05-23T16:17:26Z Xach: cool! 2016-05-23T16:17:32Z dto: :) 2016-05-23T16:17:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:17:54Z shifty joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:18:49Z phoe_krk: dto: !!!!!!!!!!!!! 2016-05-23T16:18:53Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:18:54Z didi: Is there a function that does what `print' does but print like `print'? i.e. prints for people with a preceding newline? 2016-05-23T16:18:54Z dto: Xach: i'm using a nice android port of the legacy SDL1.2 stuff with lots of goodies like free virtual d-pad/buttons and glshim among other things. however i'm planning to work with others on #lispgames to make sure people can use sdl2 as well 2016-05-23T16:19:00Z phoe_krk: dto: give me a small photo or a video or something. 2016-05-23T16:19:09Z phoe_krk: This deserves a /r/lisp post. 2016-05-23T16:19:24Z blub: what do you mean didi 2016-05-23T16:19:37Z phoe_krk: With a preceding newline? 2016-05-23T16:19:47Z dto: phoe_krk: i will 2016-05-23T16:19:48Z blub: how do you want it to be different from print 2016-05-23T16:19:51Z phoe_krk: didi: do you mean PRINC perhaps? 2016-05-23T16:19:52Z didi: blub: I want a function that does what (format t "~&~A" x) does. 2016-05-23T16:19:58Z phoe_krk: Ohh. 2016-05-23T16:19:59Z dto: phoe_krk: this is from yesterday when i had messed up sdl init :) http://i.imgur.com/V8H4inj.jpg 2016-05-23T16:20:03Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-05-23T16:20:06Z dto: phoe_krk: that is not Lisp Graphics, so don't post it 2016-05-23T16:20:08Z blub: oh 2016-05-23T16:20:12Z dto: phoe_krk: i'll get you sometthing real later :) 2016-05-23T16:20:14Z blub: i don't think so 2016-05-23T16:20:15Z phoe_krk: FRESH-LINE 2016-05-23T16:20:27Z phoe_krk: That's the ~& part. 2016-05-23T16:20:40Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:20:54Z didi: phoe_krk: I didn't know about FRESH-LINE. I usually use `terpri'. But still, I want a single function. 2016-05-23T16:21:03Z phoe_krk: Or you could always (defun fresh-print (x) (fresh-line) (print x)) 2016-05-23T16:21:10Z didi: phoe_krk: I guess. 2016-05-23T16:21:20Z moore33: beach: https://github.com/franzinc/clim2 2016-05-23T16:21:40Z beach: moore33: I have seen it. 2016-05-23T16:21:42Z phoe_krk: moore33: I think he saw it more than ten times already, with all the people linking it to him 2016-05-23T16:21:45Z phoe_krk: Hey beach. 2016-05-23T16:21:47Z White_Flame: (fresh-print bel-air) (fresh-print bel-air) ;; couldn't help myself 2016-05-23T16:21:52Z phoe_krk: XD 2016-05-23T16:21:56Z moore33: Yeah, well, just making sure. 2016-05-23T16:22:14Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:22:20Z beach: moore33: Unfortunately it comes a decade and a half too late. 2016-05-23T16:22:35Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: (make-story (flip-turn (life me) :direction :upside-down)) 2016-05-23T16:23:01Z beach: moore33: I believe McCLIM is a better implementation anyway in many ways. 2016-05-23T16:23:12Z moore33: beach: Yes. However, it's a useful reference for how some things are supposed to wok. 2016-05-23T16:23:18Z beach: Sore. 2016-05-23T16:23:26Z beach: Sure. 2016-05-23T16:23:31Z moore33: beach: Better presentation type support, certainly :) 2016-05-23T16:23:35Z phoe_krk: beach: this was a bad typo. 2016-05-23T16:23:46Z phoe_krk: Mostly because it's somewhat accurrate. 2016-05-23T16:24:05Z engblom: I am trying to compile ecl from pkgsrc on netbsd on rpi2: It fails like this https://dpaste.de/sbU6 2016-05-23T16:24:14Z didi left #lisp 2016-05-23T16:24:26Z engblom: jackdaniel: ^ 2016-05-23T16:25:12Z beach: moore33: Did you see that jackdaniel is working on cleaning up the McCLIM code and revitalizing the website, mailing list, etc.? 2016-05-23T16:25:33Z moore33: beach: Yes, I saw his announcement, plus the various mail. 2016-05-23T16:25:46Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:25:48Z beach: Yeah, it is generating some excitement. 2016-05-23T16:26:14Z beach: I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but after hanging out here, one has a tendency to think that everyone does. Not so. 2016-05-23T16:26:17Z jdz: all we need now is a Vulcan backend 2016-05-23T16:26:22Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T16:26:39Z moore33: beach: Do you have any thoughts on Climatis vs continued McClim development? Not that the former could replace the latter for a while. 2016-05-23T16:27:00Z jdz: s/Vulcan/Vulkan 2016-05-23T16:27:58Z beach: moore33: The ball is in your court. I am still waiting for you to tell me how to implement simplified presentation types. 2016-05-23T16:28:10Z moore33: Oh. 2016-05-23T16:28:41Z beach: moore33: Since I am no longer sure it will ever happen, I need to use McCLIM in the meantime. 2016-05-23T16:30:36Z moore33: beach: I didn't realize that you were being blocked by that. Are you sure that the type system needs to be simplified in order to use the Climatis rendering improvements? I can think of many ways to simplify presentation types, but the McClim system works. 2016-05-23T16:31:27Z beach: moore33: No the type system does not need to be simplified in order to use the Climatis output part. 2016-05-23T16:32:04Z beach: moore33: Right. One way would be to just import the McCLIM presentation types to Climatis. 2016-05-23T16:32:56Z moore33: Yes. 2016-05-23T16:33:33Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:33:57Z moore33: There are details about how command tables work that I would like to change, but that doesn't prevent using Climatis in the short term. 2016-05-23T16:33:59Z kolko joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:34:29Z beach: Sounds right. 2016-05-23T16:37:06Z beach: moore33: As you may recall, I also realized a few months ago that there is room for a low-level rendering library that could be common for McCLIM, Climatis and other GUI toolkits. I realized that when I found the need for low-level stuff such as draw-line, etc. in Climatis. Rather than writing Climatis-specific code for backends such as CLX, I would like to investigate that path a bit more. 2016-05-23T16:37:33Z moore33: Oh yeah, the other thing to solve in Climatis, in my opinion, is whether there's a more natural way to do dialogs in a Lispy way than ACCEPTING-VALUES. 2016-05-23T16:37:57Z beach: moore33: But my coding has basically been on hold for months because of ELS papers, talks, and referee work. 2016-05-23T16:38:09Z moore33: beach: I do recall. LPSG is moving in the direction of being to support that sort of thing. 2016-05-23T16:38:16Z beach: Great! 2016-05-23T16:38:21Z moore33: Gotta go catch the bus. 2016-05-23T16:38:28Z beach: moore33: Yes, we do need something better than accepting-values. 2016-05-23T16:38:32Z beach: OK, talk later. 2016-05-23T16:38:45Z moore33: Perhaps from the bus :) 2016-05-23T16:38:51Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-23T16:38:57Z beach: I think dinner is imminent here. 2016-05-23T16:39:14Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-23T16:39:53Z beach: jackdaniel: Congratulations! You managed to generate quite a lot of excitement with your McCLIM mailing-list messages! 2016-05-23T16:40:20Z agidyne quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T16:40:49Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:41:58Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:42:07Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:46:16Z blub: FOO> (with-standard-io-syntax (package-name *package*)) ;=> "COMMON-LISP-USER" 2016-05-23T16:46:17Z blub: weird 2016-05-23T16:46:40Z beach: Why? 2016-05-23T16:46:49Z blub: it's just not what i expected 2016-05-23T16:46:49Z beach: Why weird? 2016-05-23T16:46:56Z beach: What did you expect instead? 2016-05-23T16:47:25Z blub: i didn't expect with-standard-io-syntax to affect the value of *package* 2016-05-23T16:47:36Z beach: Oh, I see. 2016-05-23T16:47:51Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:48:12Z beach: clhs w-s-i-s 2016-05-23T16:48:13Z specbot: with-standard-io-syntax: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_std_.htm 2016-05-23T16:48:47Z beach: Yep, clearly says so. 2016-05-23T16:49:01Z blub: mhm 2016-05-23T16:49:03Z moore33: beach: One obstacle in using LPSG as a CLIM backend is that it isn't compatible with CLX, at least not without a lot of hacks that probably don't work anymore. 2016-05-23T16:49:54Z beach: moore33: I can start thinking of that soon. How is the documentation coming? 2016-05-23T16:50:10Z moore33: beach: Clim2, however, does make FFI calls to XLib, and might be a source of inspiration. 2016-05-23T16:51:03Z moore33: beach: I tagged v0.0.1 last night. I think the documentation is in good shape, and could theoretically be used to write a graphics program :) 2016-05-23T16:51:22Z moore33: beach: Although there is a lack of visual aids. 2016-05-23T16:51:30Z beach: Great! I'll put it on my reading list. 2016-05-23T16:51:49Z beach: I got distracted a few days ago. :( 2016-05-23T16:51:59Z beach: Dinner. I might be back later. 2016-05-23T16:52:07Z moore33: Another approach is to use SDL, or expand glop to provide the input support needed. 2016-05-23T16:52:10Z moore33: Bon app. 2016-05-23T16:53:05Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:55:21Z jackdaniel: beach: thanks, there was a lot of these on twitter too 2016-05-23T16:55:39Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:56:05Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:56:37Z DavidGuru1 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:57:12Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:57:17Z DavidGuru2 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T16:57:55Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T16:57:56Z DavidGuru2 is now known as DavidGuru 2016-05-23T16:58:35Z DavidGuru1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T16:58:56Z metaphysician joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:00:09Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:00:09Z d4ryus quit (Killed (kornbluth.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-23T17:00:09Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-23T17:00:12Z Xach quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:01:22Z Xach joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:02:34Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T17:02:51Z akkad: jackdaniel: with abcl on cl-bench what did you do to get a full report? it truncates on me for abcl only 2016-05-23T17:03:03Z jackdaniel: akkad: it just worked for me 2016-05-23T17:03:19Z jackdaniel: you may remove the truncated file from output/ directory, because report will choke on the damaged file 2016-05-23T17:03:34Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:04:16Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:04:53Z akkad: right. 2016-05-23T17:05:01Z akkad: ok will retry on befier box 2016-05-23T17:05:19Z akkad: java -jar /usr/abcl/abcl.jar -d64 -Xmx4g -XX:MaxPermSize=2g -XX:+CMSClassUnloadingEnabled is what I used 2016-05-23T17:09:00Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:09:51Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:11:49Z araujo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:12:38Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:15:04Z araujo quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:15:14Z moore33 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T17:15:57Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:16:00Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:18:08Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:18:35Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:19:27Z engblom: It seem like my plans to run CL on NetBSD on rpi2 became a failure :/ 2016-05-23T17:19:35Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:20:36Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:23:10Z akkad: engblom: hold on a sec. before you go nuking your install 2016-05-23T17:23:12Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-23T17:23:47Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:24:09Z engblom: akkad: OK! I bought a separate SD card for trying out NetBSD, so there is no need to hurry with deleting the installation 2016-05-23T17:24:13Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:25:03Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:26:43Z akkad: engblom: I've built it. let me get it 2016-05-23T17:27:11Z araujo_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T17:27:27Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:28:38Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:31:10Z bikeshedr quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:33:21Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:33:49Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:34:57Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T17:35:26Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:35:40Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:35:44Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:36:08Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:43:45Z Trafficker joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:45:37Z pjb joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:46:11Z rjnw joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:52:20Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:52:41Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:53:31Z beach: jackdaniel: That's excellent! 2016-05-23T17:53:44Z beach: Time to go spend time with my (admittedly small) family. 2016-05-23T17:53:48Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-23T17:57:03Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T17:57:32Z Valheru8 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T17:59:33Z Trafficker quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:00:54Z rlatimore quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-23T18:00:55Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:02:25Z Trafficker joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:03:15Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:04:15Z mrottenkolber: Is it possible to dynamically bind (as in special) functions in the function namespace? 2016-05-23T18:05:34Z Bike: no. 2016-05-23T18:05:42Z Bike: you can bind them as values and use funcall, but that's all. 2016-05-23T18:06:43Z Bike: or do something like (defun foo (&rest args) (apply *foo* args)), of course 2016-05-23T18:07:11Z PuercoPop: Bike: there is a trick 2016-05-23T18:07:23Z PuercoPop: http://carcaddar.blogspot.pe/2009/04/closure-oriented-metaprogramming-via.html 2016-05-23T18:07:52Z PuercoPop: but it depends on the function being declared not-inline for it to work 100% 2016-05-23T18:08:10Z Bike: that seems unnecessary. 2016-05-23T18:08:40Z mood: It doesn't seem thread safe either 2016-05-23T18:08:52Z rlatimore joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:09:14Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:09:28Z Guest11610 is now known as ttsda 2016-05-23T18:10:06Z PuercoPop: mood: true 2016-05-23T18:10:52Z ttsda quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-23T18:11:03Z tiago joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:11:27Z tiago is now known as Guest63512 2016-05-23T18:12:34Z Guest63512 quit (Changing host) 2016-05-23T18:12:34Z Guest63512 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:12:45Z Guest63512 is now known as tiago 2016-05-23T18:15:50Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:18:24Z VoRTeXTS joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:18:43Z VoRTeXTS: gravy train 2016-05-23T18:20:06Z CHX_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:21:15Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T18:21:30Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:26:58Z VoRTeXTS quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-23T18:28:05Z metaphysician quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-23T18:30:49Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:31:20Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:31:56Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-23T18:32:18Z CHX_ quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-23T18:32:22Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:33:33Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:34:59Z eazar001 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-23T18:38:03Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T18:38:29Z aeth joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:38:52Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:46:22Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:46:25Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:46:41Z briantrice_ quit (Quit: briantrice_) 2016-05-23T18:47:07Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:48:05Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:48:44Z Denommus quit (Quit: Bye) 2016-05-23T18:48:53Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:48:57Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:49:10Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:50:00Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:50:36Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:54:30Z dreamaddict quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:55:10Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T18:58:47Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T18:59:47Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:01:20Z dto: ok i can load 3x0ng, open sdl window, invoke the debugger, inspect backtrace... everything is working. just gotta revise the opengl stuff. 2016-05-23T19:01:25Z dto: hi vydd how are you? 2016-05-23T19:01:48Z vydd: hi dto; terrible day at work :| 2016-05-23T19:01:53Z dto: oh sorry :( 2016-05-23T19:02:45Z vydd_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:04:53Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:06:57Z peterh_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:10:31Z narendraj9 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T19:11:02Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:18:52Z kolko quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 2016-05-23T19:19:20Z pepton4 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:19:34Z CharlesN quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:20:14Z CharlesN joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:27:23Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:29:35Z vydd quit 2016-05-23T19:30:00Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T19:30:27Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:30:29Z shlomo joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:30:37Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T19:30:47Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:32:27Z bikeshedr joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:36:05Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T19:37:57Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:38:16Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:39:19Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:40:10Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:40:37Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:40:47Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:41:36Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T19:41:39Z sweater_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T19:43:45Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-23T19:45:16Z jasom: how does one pronounce 3x0ng anyway? 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Right. 2016-05-23T20:59:55Z Trafficker quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:03:09Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:05:22Z redline6561 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:06:17Z redline6561 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:07:12Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:07:20Z Trafficker joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:07:49Z trasto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T21:09:23Z jerme quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-23T21:13:59Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-23T21:16:25Z jasom: so is that 3 = tri, double use of x = k and x = sh plus 0ng = ong? 2016-05-23T21:16:50Z bikeshedr quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:18:04Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:20:20Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:22:20Z munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:24:04Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:25:18Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:28:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-23T21:28:34Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-23T21:29:39Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:30:03Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:30:16Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:32:44Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:35:29Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:35:50Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T21:36:39Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:37:34Z rlatimore quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-23T21:37:38Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T21:43:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:44:38Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:45:53Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:47:15Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-23T21:48:05Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:52:24Z trasto quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:54:37Z mhsjlw: does anyone know of some up to date leveldb bindings? 2016-05-23T21:55:59Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T21:57:56Z xtal joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:02:07Z andrei-n quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T22:03:47Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:11:21Z phoe_krk: I wonder, actually. 2016-05-23T22:11:48Z phoe_krk: What is the *minimal* set of Common Lisp special operators, functions, macros and variables that everything else can be bootstrapped off? 2016-05-23T22:12:06Z jasom: phoe_krk: it's actually very high 2016-05-23T22:12:18Z phoe_krk: jasom: I guess as much, CL itself is fairly huge. 2016-05-23T22:12:31Z phoe_krk: But is there such a listing anywhere? 2016-05-23T22:12:41Z jasom: many of the file functions, for example 2016-05-23T22:12:50Z Bike: also there's not a unique minimum. 2016-05-23T22:12:59Z jasom: Bike: there might be 2016-05-23T22:13:06Z phoe_krk: Bike: I know, there are many ways to do a thing in Lisp. 2016-05-23T22:13:15Z phoe_krk: But actually any minimum will do, even if it's not the only one. 2016-05-23T22:13:25Z Bike: how? you can implement the control flow operators in terms of each other, bla bla bla. 2016-05-23T22:13:29Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:13:40Z jasom: oh right e.g. if/cond 2016-05-23T22:13:52Z phoe_krk: Yes, if and cond are definable by each other. 2016-05-23T22:14:01Z Bike: and i don't think there's a listing because it's not actually very relevant to implementation. like, something like a garbage collection regime doesn't come in 2016-05-23T22:14:02Z jasom: so given a minimum set X that contains IF there is another minimal set Y that is the same but with COND instead of if 2016-05-23T22:14:17Z phoe_krk: Yes. 2016-05-23T22:14:34Z jasom: I think it would be more interesting to see common lisp implemented in some scheme varient 2016-05-23T22:14:57Z jasom: s/varient/subset 2016-05-23T22:15:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:16:11Z phoe_krk: Why subset? 2016-05-23T22:16:18Z jasom: or contrariwise it would be interesting to figure out what a good kernel language for lisp would be (where "good" is a somewhat subjective function of both small size and ability to efficiently implement the language) 2016-05-23T22:16:23Z phoe_krk: You could grab a R*RS and try to utilize it. 2016-05-23T22:16:45Z xtal quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:16:54Z phoe_krk: jasom: I'm interested in it as I think I would be attempting to implement Common Lisp on my own at some point in time. 2016-05-23T22:17:01Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:17:02Z phoe_krk: So - what's the required minimum. 2016-05-23T22:17:13Z phoe_krk: Because everything else can be bootstrapped off that minimum. 2016-05-23T22:17:15Z pjb: phoe_krk: the minimum is lambda. 2016-05-23T22:17:26Z pjb: phoe_krk: the whole universe runs on lambda-calculus! 2016-05-23T22:17:47Z pjb: phoe_krk: said otherwise, this is a useless question. 2016-05-23T22:17:53Z jasom: phoe_krk: well unless someone has already written the code to bootstrap it off that minimum, then you still have a lot of work to do regardless 2016-05-23T22:18:01Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:18:13Z Bike: integer arithmetic and mod. don't mess with the clasics, i say 2016-05-23T22:18:19Z pjb: phoe_krk: if you want to implement CL, then why would you want to restrict yourself? Do as beach, use CL to implement CL! 2016-05-23T22:18:38Z phoe_krk: pjb: I keep on forgetting about that one. :D 2016-05-23T22:18:54Z phoe_krk: Huh, it would be fun to actually complete SICL. 2016-05-23T22:18:56Z phoe_krk: Imagine this. 2016-05-23T22:19:02Z pjb: and sbcl, and ccl, and ecl, etc. 2016-05-23T22:19:15Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:19:17Z phoe_krk: All you need is to write a compiler for a particular architecture. 2016-05-23T22:19:21Z jasom: phoe_krk: drmeister used the lisp code from ecl for his first version of clasp 2016-05-23T22:19:24Z phoe_krk: And the rest gets bootstrapped. 2016-05-23T22:19:42Z phoe_krk: jasom: I can see the lisp code from ECL compiling in Cleavir before my eyes right now. 2016-05-23T22:19:53Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-23T22:21:38Z phoe_krk: But, what I actualy mean - the moment I have any logical minimum of operators that need to be implemented outside Common Lisp, I can write just them and have the rest bootstrapped - for free. 2016-05-23T22:21:46Z Josh_2 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T22:23:19Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:23:21Z Bike: well, do closures like pjb said. so easy. 2016-05-23T22:23:22Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:23:45Z jasom: phoe_krk: well if you use lists to represent integers, then you don't even need arithmetic 2016-05-23T22:24:06Z phoe_krk: jasom: ...now that's a pretty insanely puristic approach 2016-05-23T22:24:46Z trasto joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:24:53Z Bike: you asked. 2016-05-23T22:25:06Z jasom: you could probably implement all but the OS specific stuff in McCarthy's original lisp with such tricks 2016-05-23T22:25:26Z phoe_krk: jasom: agreed. 2016-05-23T22:26:43Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:29:59Z jasom: another reason why the question isn't sensical is that there are several primitives *not* in the lisp spec that make implementing lisp a lot easier 2016-05-23T22:30:09Z jasom: eval-with-env is an example that most implementations have 2016-05-23T22:30:38Z briantrice_ quit (Quit: briantrice_) 2016-05-23T22:32:06Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:32:12Z phoe_krk: Hum. 2016-05-23T22:32:28Z phoe_krk: Then it would be necessary to create such a minimum. 2016-05-23T22:32:30Z Bike: though eval is a slightly weird primitive 2016-05-23T22:32:42Z jasom: right 2016-05-23T22:33:05Z phoe_krk: In order to be able to easily port Common Lisp on other architectures and onto other languages. 2016-05-23T22:33:48Z jasom: phoe_krk: clisp is already fairly portable across von neumann computers 2016-05-23T22:34:14Z phoe_krk: jasom: I mean a different kind of portability. I know that ECL and CLISP are portable, but that is because C is portable. 2016-05-23T22:34:38Z jasom: sbcl is actually fairly portable too 2016-05-23T22:34:59Z jasom: but it uses C for the runtime as well, so perhaps that doesn't count for what you are getting at? 2016-05-23T22:35:03Z phoe_krk: I mean the kind of portability where you don't need C and instead write a subset of Common Lisp that you bootstrap the rest off later on. 2016-05-23T22:35:14Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: Isn't that one of the goals of 'SICL' to some degree? 2016-05-23T22:35:26Z jsgrant: Or maybe at least an inveitable side-effect? 2016-05-23T22:35:31Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: it is, actually. 2016-05-23T22:36:10Z phoe_krk: And right now I'm attuning to train of thoughts to that idea, trying to understand it and grasp why it has any chance of working at all. 2016-05-23T22:36:14Z jasom: the downside to this approach, of course, is inefficiency (with the degenerate example of lists as integers0 2016-05-23T22:36:28Z phoe_krk: It was ungraspable for me just a few weeks ago. 2016-05-23T22:36:38Z trasto quit 2016-05-23T22:36:40Z phoe_krk: jasom: this actually depends on how you implement lists on the base system. 2016-05-23T22:36:46Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:36:50Z phoe_krk: How you implement symbols, such things. 2016-05-23T22:36:56Z White_Flame: right, if you have any limited slice of functionality that you can build the rest off of (and there are multiple varying sets of fundamentals you can start with), the system will run pretty slowly 2016-05-23T22:36:59Z jsgrant: AeroNotix: Ping. So Lispkit isn't effectively dead? Just saw an upstream push the other day. :^) 2016-05-23T22:37:11Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: get it running first, optimize later. 2016-05-23T22:37:16Z White_Flame: hence the primitives in most real systems are quite a large set 2016-05-23T22:37:16Z White_Flame: sure 2016-05-23T22:37:22Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:37:33Z phoe_krk: You can always profile the stuff later, pinpoint the slowest parts and *then* rewrite them in a more native way. 2016-05-23T22:37:39Z White_Flame: or... teach it to cross-compile an image 2016-05-23T22:38:00Z phoe_krk: White_Flame: that's tempting but beyond my level of comprehension and imagination now. 2016-05-23T22:38:04Z jsgrant might try playing about again with Lispkit -- but, (though don't currently have the skills/knowledge to do it) would prefer it in qtools rather than some gtk lib for a number of reasons. 2016-05-23T22:38:06Z Bike: well, sbcl has like nine hundred vops. pick some of those 2016-05-23T22:38:10Z White_Flame: where the only thing that's known is the low level implementation details of the stack, memory layout, instruction set, etc 2016-05-23T22:38:13Z pjb: jasom: he didn't ask for "easy", but for "minimal"; "*minimal*" even! 2016-05-23T22:38:27Z phoe_krk: pjb: :P 2016-05-23T22:38:34Z jasom: pjb: I think at this point he understands the problem with the original question 2016-05-23T22:38:36Z White_Flame: pjb: and I'd agree that the most minimal would be lambda, and maybe eq 2016-05-23T22:39:05Z White_Flame: and a branching operation 2016-05-23T22:39:06Z pjb: Now, I too proposed a "maximal" option by using the whole CL. 2016-05-23T22:39:22Z briantrice_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:39:22Z phoe_krk: pjb: what I'm thinking about, and looking for, is between these extremes. 2016-05-23T22:39:32Z White_Flame: then it wouldn't be the minimum ;) 2016-05-23T22:39:38Z phoe_krk: I got it now. :P 2016-05-23T22:39:47Z jasom: pjb: to a certain extent, every lisp implementation is between these extremes 2016-05-23T22:39:47Z pjb: phoe_krk: that's where you'll have all the fun, by choosing your own set! 2016-05-23T22:39:54Z jasom: er s/pjb/phoe_krk/ 2016-05-23T22:40:12Z jasom: since most implementations implement at least *some* of their functionality in lisp 2016-05-23T22:40:13Z pjb: jasom: only because it's hard to use all the features of a language in a program! :-) 2016-05-23T22:40:50Z jasom: s/in lisp/in the hosted lisp environment/ 2016-05-23T22:42:53Z briantrice_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-23T22:43:12Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:43:14Z phoe_krk: hummmm, I see. 2016-05-23T22:44:36Z jsgrant wonders how platform specific Roswell is; I assume it has to be pretty hardcoded for the "executable output" feature. 2016-05-23T22:45:02Z phoe_krk: I think it uses some of the already established stuff. TRIVIAL-DUMP-IMAGE perhaps? 2016-05-23T22:45:15Z phoe_krk: I mean - I don't know the tool. I'm just guessing now. 2016-05-23T22:45:23Z fitzsim` joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:45:28Z Yuuhi` joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:45:58Z jsgrant really hasn't even messed about with it, probably should, he has everything thrown in and running from /usr/local which is a pretty dir location. 2016-05-23T22:46:15Z phoe_krk: Okay - sleep time for mw. 2016-05-23T22:46:19Z phoe_krk: Night, #parens! 2016-05-23T22:46:23Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: o/ 2016-05-23T22:46:26Z pjb: phoe_krk: now, if you what to have a funny week-end, just implement lambda-calculus, and start to implement more of lisp (scheme) in lambda-caculus (conses, integers, symbols, etc). 2016-05-23T22:46:43Z phoe_krk: pjb: don't tempt me. 2016-05-23T22:46:47Z pjb: phoe_krk: when you've done that, you'll know much more about that question. 2016-05-23T22:47:22Z vsync_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:47:31Z pjb: phoe_krk: You don't need to implement any other "primitive", you can just "emulate" the "external" universe of a computer in lambda-caculus to distinguish the hardware and write "device drivers". 2016-05-23T22:47:33Z djinni` joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:47:37Z MightyJoe joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:47:54Z Bike: problems being solved 2016-05-23T22:48:08Z pjb: For example, you can just keep a keyboard as a list of integers (keycodes) that you will eat, and the printer as a similar list of integers (character codes) to be printed. 2016-05-23T22:48:22Z theBlack1ragon joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:48:27Z jsgrant: There's like 30+ things I want to mess about with in LISP Land; Too many neat projects, too little time. 2016-05-23T22:48:29Z vlnx_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:48:35Z WojciechK joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:48:38Z pjb: jsgrant: one at a time! 2016-05-23T22:48:39Z cods_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:48:43Z phoe_krk: pjb: I really admire you for deliberately not giving me the answers I want and instead providing me with answers I need. 2016-05-23T22:48:44Z anunnaki_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:48:46Z j0ni joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:48:57Z des_cons1lado joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:49:05Z Thulsadu1 joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:49:10Z ramus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:49:42Z jsgrant: pjb: Yeah, but which one(s) are first on the docket? :^) 2016-05-23T22:50:00Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-23T22:50:45Z jsgrant is planning to get a Coleslaw blog up before mid-June; Maybe I'll prioritize somewhat around that. 2016-05-23T22:51:23Z jsgrant: McClim & Cluffer are certainly towards the top of that LIS/P(T). 2016-05-23T22:52:03Z PuercoPope joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:52:08Z drdo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:52:16Z oGMo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:52:35Z samis joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:52:35Z samis quit (Changing host) 2016-05-23T22:52:35Z samis joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:52:42Z ipmonger_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:52:49Z ircbrows- joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:53:34Z IPmonger quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:34Z Trafficker quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:34Z aknagi quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:34Z eschatologist quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:34Z Yuuhi quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:35Z vlnx quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:35Z bbz_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:35Z gabot quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:35Z fUD quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z oGMo quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z jdz quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z des_consolado quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z mnoonan quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z cantstanya quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z splittist quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z rvirding quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:36Z bgs101 quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z lpaste_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z tobel quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z gendl quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z clop quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z j0ni_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z cods quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z theBlackDragon quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z djinni`_ quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z anunnaki quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z Wojciech_K quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z fitzsim quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:37Z vsync quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:38Z CompanionCube quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:38Z PuercoPop quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:38Z l1x quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:38Z lieven quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:38Z gko quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:38Z Thulsadum quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z cyraxjoe quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z lancetw quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z mhsjlw quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z drdo quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z fluter quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z cpt_nemo quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z ramus quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z ircbrowse quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z jtz quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z spacebat1 quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z swflint quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:39Z axion quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z brucem quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z radioninja_work quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z theBlack1ragon is now known as theBlackDragon 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z PuercoPope is now known as PuercoPop 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z brucem_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z samis is now known as CompanionCube 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z oGMo_ is now known as oGMo 2016-05-23T22:53:40Z drdo_ is now known as drdo 2016-05-23T22:54:03Z gko_ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:55:11Z swflint_away joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:55:28Z swflint_away is now known as swflint 2016-05-23T22:55:43Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T22:55:49Z lpaste joined #lisp 2016-05-23T22:57:42Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T22:58:59Z Yuuhi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T23:04:41Z AeroNotix: jsgrant: it's not dead, no. I just have a lot of stuff going on at the minute. 2016-05-23T23:05:01Z AeroNotix: jsgrant: there's some issues I didn't have time to debug that stopped me adding simple features. 2016-05-23T23:05:55Z brucem_ is now known as brucem 2016-05-23T23:05:59Z brucem quit (Changing host) 2016-05-23T23:05:59Z brucem joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:06:29Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:06:31Z munksgaard quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-23T23:06:48Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:10:12Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:11:19Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-23T23:11:20Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-23T23:12:28Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:12:58Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:13:14Z jsgrant: AeroNotix: Yeah, np. Just was wondering; Conkeror still is usable, just not idealistically pleasurable. :^) 2016-05-23T23:18:40Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-23T23:23:38Z dto quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-23T23:24:52Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:24:55Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:25:01Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:25:44Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:25:52Z Denommus quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-23T23:26:11Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:26:18Z ipmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:30:32Z heddwch quit (Quit: ZNC - 1.6.0 - http://znc.in) 2016-05-23T23:30:32Z shikhin quit (Quit: Alas.) 2016-05-23T23:30:32Z hydraz quit (Quit: Bai.) 2016-05-23T23:32:01Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:35:23Z srcerer joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:38:07Z clop joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:38:10Z radioninja_work joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:38:10Z mnoonan joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:38:18Z gabot joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:38:58Z splittist joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:39:01Z tobel joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:39:28Z gendl joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:41:19Z l1x joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:41:19Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-23T23:42:56Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:42:56Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:44:35Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:46:34Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:53:47Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:55:42Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-23T23:58:58Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-23T23:59:05Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:02:47Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T00:04:31Z heddwch joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:04:32Z shikhin joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:04:51Z devhydraz joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:04:52Z devhydraz quit (Changing host) 2016-05-24T00:04:52Z devhydraz joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:05:38Z devhydraz is now known as hydraz 2016-05-24T00:08:46Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:09:02Z grublet quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T00:11:06Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:12:49Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:15:21Z jsgrant quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T00:17:33Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:18:59Z axion joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:19:01Z lieven joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:19:01Z spacebat1 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:19:03Z jtz joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:19:07Z bgs101 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:19:33Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:20:04Z fluter joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:20:26Z bbz_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:20:43Z cantstanya joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:21:13Z rvirding joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:22:01Z fUD joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:22:27Z lancetw joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:23:03Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:25:14Z kobain quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:25:20Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:27:49Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:29:27Z MarkKnowler joined #lisp 2016-05-24T00:31:25Z jasom: hmm, I hear other people make sbcl executables by running sbcl under wine; wine's msiexec doesn't seem to be able to run the msi I got for 1.3.5; has anyone installed sbcl under wine? 2016-05-24T00:31:52Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:33:04Z MarkKnowler left #lisp 2016-05-24T00:33:24Z jasom: nevermind, I had an ancient version of wine installed 2016-05-24T00:34:05Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T00:35:09Z Zhivago: Um, what, why? 2016-05-24T00:35:30Z Zhivago: Ah. 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timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T04:22:40Z Nuri quit (Quit: Nuri) 2016-05-24T04:25:54Z jackdaniel: no, why? 2016-05-24T04:26:09Z jackdaniel: akkad: ^ 2016-05-24T04:28:30Z jackdaniel: i mean during dev i did, but not the final benchmarks 2016-05-24T04:34:34Z bikeshedr joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:35:07Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:38:29Z Xal quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-24T04:39:09Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-24T04:40:09Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:42:30Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:44:41Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:44:48Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-24T04:46:57Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:48:11Z jackdaniel: hey 2016-05-24T04:48:31Z beach: Are you sure you should be awake at this time of day? 2016-05-24T04:48:33Z beach: :) 2016-05-24T04:48:46Z jackdaniel: well, it's past 6am 2016-05-24T04:49:00Z beach: I know. 2016-05-24T04:49:15Z jackdaniel: but it's a breakfast time :) 2016-05-24T04:51:27Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-24T04:52:13Z beach: [Reading the logs] As it turns out, it is not a good idea to bootstrap full Common Lisp from a subset of Common Lisp. While it might seem like an attractive idea, the resulting code is painful to write and hard to maintain, simply because it is difficult to keep in mind exactly what subset is allowed for each module. 2016-05-24T04:52:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:53:23Z beach: But, I realize that there are several Common Lisp implementations out there that were written like this, and I can see why that had to be the case at the time. 2016-05-24T04:53:53Z jackdaniel: well, it's still profitable, even if indeed a bit annoying 2016-05-24T04:54:10Z jackdaniel: https://i.imgur.com/jvpThuh.png <- simplified mcclim deps graph 2016-05-24T04:54:52Z beach: Nice! 2016-05-24T04:55:14Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:55:16Z jackdaniel: beach: did you get my last e-mail? 2016-05-24T04:55:23Z beach: Yes, I did. 2016-05-24T04:55:29Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-05-24T04:55:36Z groovy2shoes: you can always just use ISLISP as your subset 2016-05-24T04:55:39Z beach: I got it after I quit working last night, and now it is too early to act upon it. 2016-05-24T04:55:50Z groovy2shoes: you'll just have to rename those names they changed back to the CL names 2016-05-24T04:55:50Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: I had exactly that idea some time ago 2016-05-24T04:55:58Z beach: jackdaniel: But I'll get to it soon. 2016-05-24T04:56:04Z holycow: beach: was that you that updated mcclim site? 2016-05-24T04:56:10Z jackdaniel: beach: no rush 2016-05-24T04:56:17Z groovy2shoes: total bullshit that they didn't include a module system of some sort in there... big mistake, imo 2016-05-24T04:56:19Z beach: holycow: No, it was jackdaniel. 2016-05-24T04:56:22Z jackdaniel: holycow: he definetely inspired it 2016-05-24T04:56:27Z holycow: aha! 2016-05-24T04:56:34Z holycow: hi, i just wanted to say that it looks really good 2016-05-24T04:57:01Z beach: groovy2shoes: I think pjb understood my position. There is absolutely no reason to use anything other than full Common Lisp to implement Common Lisp. 2016-05-24T04:57:06Z jackdaniel: holycow: thanks :) 2016-05-24T04:57:08Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T04:57:30Z groovy2shoes: beach, depends on what your bootstrap environment looks like 2016-05-24T04:57:34Z jackdaniel: beach: I have that deja vu that we already had that conversation and we've agreed to disagree :P 2016-05-24T04:57:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T04:57:51Z holycow: clean and very easy on the eyes. kind of glad it isn't a wordpress theme with the fucking vertical page slider bullshit they are doing now 2016-05-24T04:58:03Z beach: groovy2shoes: I think pjb understood my position. There is no reason to consider any bootstrap environment other than full Common Lisp. :) 2016-05-24T04:58:16Z groovy2shoes: beach, although, I'm thinking in my head that you'd gradually add whatever bits you'd need on top of the subset from within that subset itself, until you have the subset that makes it actually convenient to write your impl 2016-05-24T04:58:27Z groovy2shoes: sure there! 2016-05-24T04:58:29Z groovy2shoes: is! 2016-05-24T04:58:32Z beach: Nope. 2016-05-24T04:58:54Z jackdaniel: it's like with GCC – it's bootstrapped from fully compliant C compiler 2016-05-24T04:59:05Z groovy2shoes: some new operating system, like one of those dozens of Rust operating systems that keep popping up, that don't have a CL to target them already 2016-05-24T04:59:09Z jackdaniel: no need to write it from scratch 2016-05-24T04:59:18Z beach: groovy2shoes: Cross compile. 2016-05-24T04:59:21Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: there is cross compilation 2016-05-24T04:59:24Z groovy2shoes: I think GCC has to "boostrap" itself, actually 2016-05-24T04:59:42Z groovy2shoes: cross compilation sucks 2016-05-24T04:59:46Z jackdaniel: it bootstraps it's initial version, which is written in... C :) 2016-05-24T04:59:55Z groovy2shoes: not all of us have all these platforms to compile across willy-nilly 2016-05-24T04:59:58Z jackdaniel: but I think that boostraping from a subset is fine 2016-05-24T05:00:03Z jackdaniel: ECL does that extensively 2016-05-24T05:00:26Z groovy2shoes: I had a bad experience with a Modula-3 compiler bootstrap that made me dislike any reliance on cross-compilation in my bootstrap 2016-05-24T05:01:13Z groovy2shoes: mostly because I didn't have any of the platforms that had a binary available to do the cross-compile with, even though my platform was "supported" 2016-05-24T05:01:18Z jackdaniel: but it's really super convenient on the other hand not to care about the order of loading things 2016-05-24T05:01:27Z jackdaniel: and having full standard at your hand 2016-05-24T05:01:32Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:01:38Z groovy2shoes: and I was SOL... never did get that compiler to work, managed to find an old version of the SRC compiler to C 2016-05-24T05:01:48Z beach: groovy2shoes: I have thought about a "Bootstrap Common Lisp" system, and jackdaniel thinks that ECL could play that role. It would be a Common Lisp system that is not written to run applications, so it need not be efficient. Its only purpose is to bootstrap other Common Lisp systems on operating systems that don't already have a Common Lisp system. 2016-05-24T05:02:04Z groovy2shoes: oh, I absolutely think ECL is perfect for that 2016-05-24T05:02:09Z jackdaniel: ECL bootstraps bytecode compiler / interpreter from small core and after that it's fully CL 2016-05-24T05:02:17Z jackdaniel: then it builds C/C++ compiler 2016-05-24T05:02:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:02:20Z beach: It isn't perfect, simply because it is too good. 2016-05-24T05:02:20Z jackdaniel: using full common lisp 2016-05-24T05:02:21Z holycow: wow. that is a really cool idea beach 2016-05-24T05:02:22Z beach: :) 2016-05-24T05:02:29Z akkad: now if cl-bench had a nice multithreaded test 2016-05-24T05:02:38Z beach: holycow: Thanks! 2016-05-24T05:02:55Z jackdaniel: I'm not going to give up on ECL :P but you may repurpose it to your needs of course 2016-05-24T05:03:19Z beach: It is free software isn't it? :) 2016-05-24T05:03:29Z beach: I can do (almost) what I want. :) 2016-05-24T05:03:31Z akkad: jackdaniel: the stack overflows only happened in slime. 2016-05-24T05:04:00Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, don't give up on it! it's one of my favorites, if only because of how damn portable and reliable it is 2016-05-24T05:04:15Z jackdaniel: beach: right, what I mean that ECL may be used to boostrap, but I'm not going to give up on making it faster :p 2016-05-24T05:04:31Z jackdaniel: akkad: ah. regarding the multithreading testes, I want to add some 2016-05-24T05:04:34Z jackdaniel: from lparallel 2016-05-24T05:04:34Z groovy2shoes: some things are more important than efficiency, though to be honest I haven't run into any problems with ECL's performance yet (though I'm not exactly number crunching over here) 2016-05-24T05:04:47Z loke: beach: Isn't ABCL that CL already? 2016-05-24T05:04:59Z loke: beach: I have bootstreapped SBCL using ABCL because a Java was all I had available. 2016-05-24T05:04:59Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:05:06Z holycow: beach: your idea would be amazing on something like this: https://www.parallella.org/board/ 2016-05-24T05:05:10Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: ECL has a few shortcomings, but it's all something what can be improved :) 2016-05-24T05:05:15Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure. And that is a problem for using it as Bootstrap Common Lisp. What I want is a system that is so simple that it will install basically anywhere. 2016-05-24T05:05:18Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-24T05:05:26Z beach: loke: Not even close. 2016-05-24T05:05:39Z jackdaniel: beach: that's what's ECL bootstraps from – ECL built from minimal core and bytecode 2016-05-24T05:05:51Z jackdaniel: when I'll document that part, you'll be able to reproduce this part 2016-05-24T05:06:10Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, I agree, but imo all the CL implementations are riddled with shortcomings :p 2016-05-24T05:06:14Z beach: jackdaniel: But I don't want a minimal core. I want a full Common Lisp system. 2016-05-24T05:06:17Z jackdaniel: holycow: I've ported linux kernel for lparallella :) 2016-05-24T05:06:21Z groovy2shoes: too much legacy baggage usually 2016-05-24T05:06:24Z holycow: jackdaniel: no kidding? 2016-05-24T05:06:26Z holycow bows 2016-05-24T05:06:46Z jackdaniel: beach: yeah, it's a minimal core where you load portable *.lsp files in order and voila, you have full Common Lisp 2016-05-24T05:06:51Z jackdaniel: only after that the C compiler is built 2016-05-24T05:06:55Z groovy2shoes: beach, you start with a minimal core, and you build up a more complete system from within the core itself 2016-05-24T05:07:12Z groovy2shoes: beach, then the core is small and portable, and the rest is defined in itself and doesn't need to be touched at all to port 2016-05-24T05:07:36Z jackdaniel: holycow: well, not me alone of course. I've worked as an embedded engineer in outsourcingcompany 2016-05-24T05:07:57Z jackdaniel: but I had parallella before it was on the market (16 cores one) 2016-05-24T05:08:44Z jackdaniel: but.. it's offtopic here :) I'll be back in an hour probably o/ 2016-05-24T05:09:20Z beach: groovy2shoes: Like I said, I have noticed it is too painful to do it that way, and the code is very hard to maintain. 2016-05-24T05:09:39Z groovy2shoes: beach, come to think of it, I think that's how Le-Lisp was "bootstrapped"... LLM3 VM was pretty damn minimal, but once you implemented that, the rest of the system Just Worked™ 2016-05-24T05:09:41Z beach: But, I clearly need to write this down as a paper, so that I can get the message across. 2016-05-24T05:10:04Z groovy2shoes: beach, yeah, either you don't have a valid argument, or I'm missing something here :p 2016-05-24T05:10:11Z beach: Right. 2016-05-24T05:10:42Z groovy2shoes: the whole point of doing it that way is that you don't *have* to maintain it, and, frankly, I don't think it's painful in the list 2016-05-24T05:11:16Z groovy2shoes: beach, by the way, I finally got around to reading that paper you linked me about the SBCL bootstrap... very interesting :) thanks again 2016-05-24T05:11:23Z beach: Sure. 2016-05-24T05:11:29Z beach: Great paper. 2016-05-24T05:11:37Z groovy2shoes: it's very informative 2016-05-24T05:11:42Z groovy2shoes: and to-the-point 2016-05-24T05:12:00Z groovy2shoes: pretty rare to read a to-the-point anything that's be typeset with TeX... 2016-05-24T05:12:06Z groovy2shoes: ¬_¬ 2016-05-24T05:12:30Z akkad: jackdaniel: sbcl does ok ok there 2016-05-24T05:12:32Z beach: So for example, the SBCL compiler does not use CLOS, but it needs to be maintained, not because it is very buggy, but because new functions are needed (perfective maintenance). But I can't imagine maintaining a Common Lisp compiler written without CLOS. 2016-05-24T05:13:03Z ksool quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:13:21Z beach: But, I really need to write a paper about it. 2016-05-24T05:13:30Z ksool joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:13:34Z groovy2shoes: beach, I look forward to reading it :) 2016-05-24T05:13:58Z groovy2shoes: as a compilers guy, I'm very interested in this sort of stuff 2016-05-24T05:14:12Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:14:19Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:14:35Z beach: This subject is obviously very controversial, and seems to touch many sore spots. 2016-05-24T05:14:43Z danlentz quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T05:14:43Z pootler_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T05:14:47Z mjl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T05:15:07Z mjl joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:15:13Z groovy2shoes: my general approach to bootstrapping thus far has been: write an interpreter for the language in some other readily-available language, then use the interpreter to run the compiler on itself, etc... nothing new or fancy, pretty classic as far as I can tell, but it's served me extremely well 2016-05-24T05:15:20Z pootler_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:15:21Z srcerer_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:15:32Z beach: You are not alone. 2016-05-24T05:15:33Z vaporatorius quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:15:34Z Patzy_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:15:35Z beach: And that's my point. 2016-05-24T05:15:43Z danlentz joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:16:21Z groovy2shoes: another approach that interests me is the Scheme48 / PreScheme approach 2016-05-24T05:16:25Z beach: Maybe I need to actually make sure that Bootstrap Common Lisp exists. Then the discussion would be more real. 2016-05-24T05:16:26Z Patzy joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:16:30Z groovy2shoes: I need to find the time to just sit down and read through that source 2016-05-24T05:16:33Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:16:37Z beach: *sigh* 2016-05-24T05:17:02Z vaporatorius joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:17:12Z |3b|` joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:17:24Z groovy2shoes: I think probably the absolute easiest way to bootstrap in this day and age is to have a compiler that targets C 2016-05-24T05:17:40Z groovy2shoes: then you compile the compiler to C, and everyone is fine and dandy, because everyone has a C compiler 2016-05-24T05:17:57Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:18:10Z srcerer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:18:25Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:20:33Z |3b| quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:20:42Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:20:47Z beach: That's a different subject though. It has to do with the purpose and objectives of the Common Lisp system. It is basically unrelated to how the Common Lisp system is written. 2016-05-24T05:21:51Z holycow: you guys talk about the best stuff. sometimes just getting some popcorn and letting this chan scroll is the best. 2016-05-24T05:22:15Z beach: Thanks. :) 2016-05-24T05:22:18Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:24:01Z groovy2shoes: beach, I'm not sure what you mean by that 2016-05-24T05:24:38Z groovy2shoes: (I also hope I'm not coming off as terribly argumentative -- that's not my intention -- again, this stuff interests me, and if I can learn something new from this discussion I'll be a very happy person :)) 2016-05-24T05:25:12Z groovy2shoes: (just trying to understand) 2016-05-24T05:26:01Z ACE_Recliner quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:26:10Z beach: groovy2shoes: What I meant is that you can use C or assembly or machine code or whatever as the target, and that is independent of how the system is written. It could be written in Common Lisp, Scheme, C or assembler. The two issues are unrelated. 2016-05-24T05:27:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:28:13Z groovy2shoes: beach, well, typically the bootstrap problem only arises in the case of a self-hosting compiler, so I'm talking about a Common Lisp -> C compiler, where the object code is included in the distribution for quick 'n' easy bootstrap by the end-programmer 2016-05-24T05:28:53Z akkad: jackdaniel: http://zeniv.linux.org.uk/~ober/report.html 2016-05-24T05:29:06Z groovy2shoes: the compiler that generates the C doesn't necessarily need to be the same as the intended "final" compiler, but it should accept the same language 2016-05-24T05:30:32Z jsalaz joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:30:45Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:32:22Z |3b|` is now known as |3b| 2016-05-24T05:32:38Z beach: groovy2shoes: I do not have any opinions about the purpose of Common Lisp implementations. Some of them want to interoperate with C, some with C++. Some want to be as retargetable as possible. Some want to be as fast as possible. I do have opinions about how the code to achieve the goal is written. 2016-05-24T05:33:05Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:33:20Z beach: And I claim the two issues are basically unrelated, unless you insist that they are connected in some artificial way. 2016-05-24T05:33:36Z beach: ... like refusing to bootstrap on a Common Lisp system other than your own. 2016-05-24T05:33:49Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:34:01Z beach: groovy2shoes: And by "you" I mean the neutral "you" as in "one". 2016-05-24T05:34:09Z beach: Not you personally. 2016-05-24T05:34:11Z groovy2shoes: I mean, isn't the whole point of the bootstrap to make the implementation more portable? 2016-05-24T05:34:33Z groovy2shoes: to make it easier to build in new environments? 2016-05-24T05:34:36Z beach: You have to distinguish between "portable" and "retargetable". 2016-05-24T05:34:49Z beach: Two entirely different issues. 2016-05-24T05:35:18Z jackdaniel: akkad: I see you have outdated ECL :P LispWorks is really nice on this bench 2016-05-24T05:35:56Z groovy2shoes: I'm talking about portable 2016-05-24T05:36:19Z beach: groovy2shoes: Then what code it generates is unimportant. 2016-05-24T05:36:28Z groovy2shoes: as in, the easier it is to bring the system up in a new environment, the "better" your bootstrap is 2016-05-24T05:36:42Z groovy2shoes: not at all! 2016-05-24T05:37:55Z groovy2shoes: if your bootstrap compiler generates linux-x86 code, that's a far less useful bootstrap than one that outputs C, simply because linux-x86 is one platform, whereas C can be further translated for practically *any* platform 2016-05-24T05:38:15Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:38:23Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:38:49Z jlarocco joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:38:53Z jlarocco quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:39:09Z groovy2shoes: just to be clear, this "CL -> C" bootstrap compiler is intended to be executed exactly once: to build the production compiler "from scratch" 2016-05-24T05:39:30Z groovy2shoes: the CL -> C compiler isn't in itself intended to be a production compiler 2016-05-24T05:39:50Z drmeister: beach: Hi - what do you think about the value of a profiling function that counts how many times every function is called in the evaluation of some form? Just a number count. 2016-05-24T05:40:29Z beach: groovy2shoes: Ah, I see. You are talking about how the Bootstrap Common Lisp system would be written. Then even better, it could be a pure interpreter. 2016-05-24T05:40:43Z jackdaniel: groovy2shoes: so you have basically repeated beach's idea about the boostrap compiler, but you have added an additional step, that the output must be C 2016-05-24T05:40:47Z groovy2shoes: that was my first suggestion! 2016-05-24T05:41:23Z groovy2shoes: 01:14:46 my general approach to bootstrapping thus far has been: write an interpreter for the language in some other readily-available language, then use the interpreter to run the compiler on itself, etc... nothing new or fancy, pretty classic as far as I can tell, but it's served me extremely well 2016-05-24T05:41:32Z jackdaniel: and it really sounds like ecl ^_^ 2016-05-24T05:41:49Z beach: jackdaniel: Nah, ECL is too good, as I said. :) 2016-05-24T05:42:10Z jackdaniel: I mean – it fits the template you have both sketched 2016-05-24T05:42:19Z beach: Sure. 2016-05-24T05:42:41Z lieven quit (Changing host) 2016-05-24T05:42:41Z lieven joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:42:59Z jackdaniel: drmeister: https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/metering 2016-05-24T05:43:04Z beach: groovy2shoes: I understand. But my point is that only one such BCL system is needed. Not one for every Common Lisp system written. 2016-05-24T05:43:17Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-24T05:43:18Z groovy2shoes: beach, ah, I see 2016-05-24T05:43:36Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:44:00Z jackdaniel: drmeister: if you'll use the metering and it works on clasp, let me know, I'll add it to the table! :) 2016-05-24T05:44:00Z groovy2shoes: I think I agree in the Common Lisp case (and for other languages that have an adequate and stable standard) 2016-05-24T05:44:17Z groovy2shoes: (though tbh, I'm having a hard time thinking of any :p) 2016-05-24T05:44:43Z jackdaniel: drmeister: metering is a portable profiler (ie it's written in portable Common Lisp without compiler hacks) 2016-05-24T05:44:47Z beach: drmeister: Any information like that is valuable to the programmer. 2016-05-24T05:45:11Z drmeister: jackdaniel: I plan to get that running. 2016-05-24T05:46:03Z drmeister: But I wanted to get an idea of where to start inlining so I added a counter to each function object that was incremented every time it was called - it's under a cpp define control - so I can compile it away. 2016-05-24T05:46:15Z jackdaniel: ay 2016-05-24T05:46:30Z drmeister: So I tried this: (gctools:function-call-count-profiler #'(lambda () (compile 'foo '(lambda () (list (list (list 3 4))))))) 2016-05-24T05:46:36Z peterh_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:46:44Z drmeister: The top results: 2016-05-24T05:46:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/mAvxKv8D/ 2016-05-24T05:48:17Z drmeister: This could be very useful. 2016-05-24T05:49:20Z drmeister: INSTANCE-REF, NOT, SL-BOUNDP, EQ, INSTANCE-CLASS ... All good stuff for inlining. 2016-05-24T05:49:39Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:49:47Z Guest63672 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:49:49Z drmeister: Ok, I'm off to sleep - good night all. 2016-05-24T05:50:11Z groovy2shoes: beach, thanks for being so patient... I think I understand where you're coming from now, but I still look forward to reading that paper :p 2016-05-24T05:51:51Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, beach: I've actually thought numerous times about how ECL seemed to me to be the perfect bootstrap compiler for a CL system, and I was aghast that SBCL doesn't support it! if I can find some time in the next few months, I might see if I can't get SBCL to bootstrap with ECL and send them a patch 2016-05-24T05:52:16Z jackdaniel: the problem is on the ecl's side 2016-05-24T05:52:25Z jackdaniel: it's on my todo list ;) 2016-05-24T05:52:35Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:53:17Z jackdaniel: sbcl bootstrap process has shown a few interesting corner cases where ECL isn't conformant (ie bugs) 2016-05-24T05:54:28Z holycow: we live in an amazing time. with have stumpwm cl window manager, liskit cl browser, mcclim is coming along, quicklisp and gobs of libraries and now you guys are talking about a lisp based bootstrapper 2016-05-24T05:54:53Z holycow: its like that scene in terminator 2 where the t1000 pulls it self together from a thousand little piceses 2016-05-24T05:55:11Z jackdaniel: heheh 2016-05-24T05:56:24Z groovy2shoes quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T05:56:39Z rvchangue joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:56:52Z beach: jackdaniel: Can you summarize those corner cases in a few words, or would it require a more elaborate explanation? 2016-05-24T05:57:04Z rvchangue is now known as Guest79500 2016-05-24T05:57:18Z jackdaniel: one was about carrying the environment between nested closures (clearly a bug) – already fixed 2016-05-24T05:57:27Z jackdaniel: now it stops on a fairly trivial ftype declaration 2016-05-24T05:57:28Z arrdem quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T05:57:44Z jackdaniel: (c compiler has a bug, bytecmp works) 2016-05-24T05:58:05Z jackdaniel: and there is some macrolet/function confusion *somewhere*, haven't investigated it yet 2016-05-24T05:58:24Z beach: OK, I think I understand. 2016-05-24T05:58:24Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:58:28Z beach: Thanks. 2016-05-24T05:58:30Z jackdaniel: probably more will come 2016-05-24T05:58:32Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-24T05:58:47Z jackdaniel: sure 2016-05-24T05:59:57Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-24T06:01:24Z jsalaz quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:01:57Z arrdem joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:04:56Z beach: Time to get to work! 2016-05-24T06:04:59Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-24T06:05:47Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:10:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:12:30Z troydm quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:12:33Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:13:40Z habs joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:15:14Z aphprentice quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:15:49Z splittist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:15:49Z dwynwen_ddlleyw quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:15:50Z dan64 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:16:01Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:16:42Z dan64 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:16:56Z splittist joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:17:57Z dwynwen_ddlleyw joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:18:09Z banjiewen quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:18:10Z askatasuna quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:18:36Z dyelar quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:18:45Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:19:19Z tobel quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:19:19Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:19:19Z zkat quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:19:19Z katco quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:19:49Z pobivan quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:19:54Z billstclair quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:19:54Z drmeister quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:20:29Z asedeno quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:20:31Z banjiewen joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:21:04Z steelbird quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:21:07Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:21:12Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:21:37Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:21:39Z tobel joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:21:55Z asedeno joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:22:15Z peterh_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T06:22:37Z katco joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:22:49Z d4gg4d quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:23:17Z drmeister joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:23:20Z zkat joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:23:51Z Fleurety quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:23:56Z askatasuna joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:24:00Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:24:21Z billstclair joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:25:22Z minion quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T06:25:29Z minion joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:25:37Z d4gg4d joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:26:53Z troydm joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:26:54Z ym quit (Read error: Connection timed out) 2016-05-24T06:27:31Z bege_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:27:40Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:27:57Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:28:31Z bege joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:29:13Z ym joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:31:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:33:32Z holycow quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:36:27Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:36:49Z tippenein quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T06:37:10Z tippenein joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:39:51Z holycow joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:40:15Z holycow is now known as Guest65282 2016-05-24T06:41:09Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:42:06Z steelbird quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T06:43:13Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:45:39Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:47:25Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:56:28Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-05-24T06:59:08Z groovy2shoes sighs 2016-05-24T06:59:31Z groovy2shoes: damn time warner 2016-05-24T07:03:57Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-24T07:04:26Z loke: groovy2shoes: What did they do this time? 2016-05-24T07:05:15Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:07:26Z groovy2shoes: loke, they just dropped my connection in the middle of a discussion, and now beach is gone :/ 2016-05-24T07:07:54Z loke: groovy2shoes: Isn't time warner a movie company? Are they ionvolved with your internet somehow? 2016-05-24T07:10:47Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:12:33Z groovy2shoes quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:12:46Z karswell` joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:12:57Z karswell quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:13:18Z groovy2shoes joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:14:14Z phoe_work joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:14:16Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:14:42Z groovy2shoes: loke, time warner cable (roadrunner) 2016-05-24T07:15:05Z loke: groovy2shoes: Cable? Ouch. 2016-05-24T07:15:20Z loke: Better than DSL I guess. 2016-05-24T07:15:22Z groovy2shoes: not mine, I'm staying at a buddy's place tonight :p 2016-05-24T07:15:26Z groovy2shoes: I've got fiber at home 2016-05-24T07:15:38Z loke: groovy2shoes: Good. Back to good old Gbit :-) 2016-05-24T07:15:43Z loke: You better go home now. 2016-05-24T07:15:56Z loke: No friend is worth suffering cable. 2016-05-24T07:15:58Z loke: :-) 2016-05-24T07:16:40Z groovy2shoes: home is 3 hours away :p 2016-05-24T07:17:06Z loke: groovy2shoes: In the US, it's usually Google fibre for fibre connections? 2016-05-24T07:17:23Z groovy2shoes: I've got AT&T for it at the moment 2016-05-24T07:17:29Z aeth: Google Fiber is in < 10 cities, most of them small. 2016-05-24T07:17:36Z groovy2shoes: afaik, Google Fiber is only active in one city so far (Kansas City) 2016-05-24T07:17:50Z loke: groovy2shoes: Oh. Same specs as Google fibre? (that's the one I saw, and it looked pretty nice) 2016-05-24T07:17:53Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:17:58Z groovy2shoes: but fortunately for me, they're installing it in my city... actually had the crew come out and mark the water lines in front of my house two weeks ago :D 2016-05-24T07:18:03Z aeth: https://fiber.google.com/about/ 2016-05-24T07:18:07Z aeth: 5 cities, with more coming 2016-05-24T07:18:39Z loke: I had only heard of Verizon other than Google that does fibre in the US. Apparently ATT as well. Who else? 2016-05-24T07:19:22Z groovy2shoes: bit of a stretch to say Atlanta has Google Fiber... I've got a couple buddies there, and according to them it's like one neighborhood that actually has connectivity so far... 2016-05-24T07:19:58Z loke: New York is missing from that list. One might wonder why they didn't do that. 2016-05-24T07:20:07Z aeth: loke: Usually there are two high-speed Internet companies in a broad region, although certain areas only get one. Through an accident of history, the phone companies (e.g. Verizon) and the cable companies (e.g. Comcast) compete over broadband, telephone, and TV. 2016-05-24T07:20:14Z groovy2shoes: I mean, Atlanta is HUGE, and if only downtown has GFiber, then there's still a TON of people and land that aren't covered 2016-05-24T07:20:29Z aeth: The phone companies do not compete with each other, and the cable companies do not compete with each other, but the phone companies compete with the cable companies. 2016-05-24T07:20:57Z loke: aeth: I knew about that (one can't listen to a tech podcast without hearing about the problems of the lack of compatition ion the US). But I didn't realise it also extended to fibre. 2016-05-24T07:21:07Z groovy2shoes: (I'm in Raleigh now with my buddy, for what it's worth, but home is in Charlotte nowadays) 2016-05-24T07:21:28Z loke: groovy2shoes: Realigh is in the list though 2016-05-24T07:21:38Z aeth: loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_the_United_States#Broadband_providers 2016-05-24T07:21:39Z groovy2shoes: yeah, but it's not on yet 2016-05-24T07:21:40Z Zhivago: Probably for the same reason that New York has rubbish all over the place. 2016-05-24T07:21:45Z groovy2shoes: they're still working on installing the cable 2016-05-24T07:21:48Z loke: Actually, looking at it, it seems to be pretty complete list of all the cities in the US that I know of, excluding NY 2016-05-24T07:22:12Z groovy2shoes: lol, it's a very tiny list :p 2016-05-24T07:22:13Z aeth: loke: Usually it's phone companies that offer DSL and fiber (e.g. Verizon) vs. cable companies with cable Internet of comparable speeds. 2016-05-24T07:22:17Z aeth: Based on that table 2016-05-24T07:22:27Z aeth: Although not every area gets to choose between the two. 2016-05-24T07:22:42Z groovy2shoes: hell, some areas don't even get one 2016-05-24T07:22:53Z loke: groovy2shoes: Well that sucks. 2016-05-24T07:22:55Z groovy2shoes: still people out in the boonies with satellite or dialup even 2016-05-24T07:23:02Z aeth: Maybe some big areas get more than the two, but there's probably some major qualifications, like the lesser competitors being really slow 2016-05-24T07:23:04Z loke: groovy2shoes: That sucks even more. 2016-05-24T07:23:15Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:23:33Z loke: aeth: I also heard that the big providers (was it Verizon?) actually does metered connections now. Is this prevalent? 2016-05-24T07:23:56Z groovy2shoes: loke, infrastructure is mostly concentrated in the big cities, though that's been slowly changing of late 2016-05-24T07:24:01Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:24:24Z loke: I had 10 Mb/s full duplex in 2001. :-) 2016-05-24T07:24:26Z aeth: loke: Mobile broadband almost always has a cap... Confusingly, there's a Verizon Wireless (4G, etc.) and a Verizon (FiOS, etc.). 2016-05-24T07:24:32Z aeth: It looks like Verizon owns Verizon Wireless. 2016-05-24T07:24:42Z groovy2shoes: yeah... no matter what, you don't get full duplex in the US 2016-05-24T07:24:44Z aeth: I'm not sure if FiOS is also capped 2016-05-24T07:24:44Z loke: Now it's 100 times faster than that. 2016-05-24T07:25:04Z groovy2shoes: you'll get like 50 Mbit/s down, and like 1.5 Mbit/s up lol 2016-05-24T07:25:12Z aeth: loke: I think areas tend to get about 40-60 now. 2016-05-24T07:25:16Z loke: groovy2shoes: 50 Mb/s down? For cable I presume. 2016-05-24T07:25:23Z loke: What do you get for fibre? 2016-05-24T07:25:24Z groovy2shoes: yes 2016-05-24T07:25:25Z aeth: 40-60 in *ideal* conditions. 2016-05-24T07:25:47Z groovy2shoes: I get about 76 Mbit/s down on average... 15 up 2016-05-24T07:26:05Z groovy2shoes: the node is in my back yard, so the copper doesn't have far to travel :) 2016-05-24T07:26:05Z aeth: loke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_Fios#Internet_access 2016-05-24T07:26:18Z loke: groovy2shoes: Wow. On fibre? Wtf? 2016-05-24T07:26:19Z aeth: That table doesn't have prices, though. 2016-05-24T07:26:34Z aeth: Verizon's 500/500 probably costs a lot 2016-05-24T07:26:49Z aeth: I'd be surprised if anyone can affordably get more than 100 2016-05-24T07:26:56Z loke: You know what, that explains the comments I got when making this post. Barely anyone commented on the _actual_ subject of the post: 2016-05-24T07:26:59Z loke: https://plus.google.com/+EliasMartenson/posts/KTDgaysx5Nn 2016-05-24T07:26:59Z groovy2shoes: loke, that's meastured speed and not advertised speed 2016-05-24T07:27:14Z groovy2shoes: my rates, I mean 2016-05-24T07:28:22Z aeth: groovy2shoes: you can get the advertised speed on weeknights after idk 2am or so ;-P 2016-05-24T07:28:45Z loke: aeth: I get advertised rates most of the time. I guess I'm lucky. 2016-05-24T07:28:46Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-05-24T07:28:59Z aeth: loke: Everything in the US infrastructure-related is pretty bad. 2016-05-24T07:29:35Z aeth: I lose power for less than an hour regularly (and just did about 15 hours ago). Once every few months or so. It didn't used to be like this. 2016-05-24T07:30:36Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T07:30:41Z aeth: Obviously there are countries that are worse (with both Internet speeds and electricity), but the US's infrastructure is not as good as it might seem from the outside. 2016-05-24T07:31:08Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:31:16Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:32:44Z loke: aeth: Do you live in the countryside? 2016-05-24T07:32:49Z aeth: No, suburbs. 2016-05-24T07:32:52Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:32:52Z loke: I'd expect cities to be more reliable. 2016-05-24T07:32:55Z aeth: It varies a lot, though. e.g. A lot of states have very bad roads. Some cities have apparently undrinkable water. 2016-05-24T07:33:05Z p_l: polish former monopolist (ok, they are pretty much still monopolists when it comes to landlines) these days is only placing FTTH, depending on available capacity it goes up to 600Mbit (and yes, countryside is getting it as well, just slowly. very slowly) 2016-05-24T07:34:06Z loke: Here, the government mandated two fibre pairs to every household. Different IPS's are selling connectivity over those wires. 2016-05-24T07:34:09Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:34:23Z loke: That's why I could easily change from one fibre ISP to another when I wasn't happy with the former's service. 2016-05-24T07:34:39Z groovy2shoes: here, ISPs lay their own wires, and they often fight over who owns rights to the land that the wires need to travel through 2016-05-24T07:35:12Z aeth: loke: that makes sense 2016-05-24T07:35:14Z loke: groovy2shoes: It shouldn't matter who owns the land the wires go though. The government should mandate that the connections are made. 2016-05-24T07:35:25Z groovy2shoes: and they come to "gentlemen's agreements" about how they won't encroach on each others' territory 2016-05-24T07:36:44Z detergnet quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:36:46Z loke: aeth: It works really well. Most of the time. A colleague of mine wanted to change ISP and then it turned out that he had only one fibre pair, and they had run out of connections. Turns out the contractor had been saving money by not installing two for each household. Took months to have everything resolved and the installer come and put more cables in the ground. :-) 2016-05-24T07:37:27Z aeth: loke: That sort of thing would be fought severely in the US for two things. First, "the government mandated..." would immediately get a lot of Americans to oppose it. Then, more would oppose depending on the details, e.g. if the government owned the fiber or something. 2016-05-24T07:37:35Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:37:46Z loke: And I have to go now, but here's something to leave you with. From my ISP: 2016-05-24T07:37:46Z loke: http://www.straitstimes.com/tech/pcs/viewqwests-10gbps-fibre-plan-to-cost-218-per-month 2016-05-24T07:37:58Z aeth: (I am trying to be as neutral as possible in explaining why that wouldn't pass, I don't mean to be political, but it is sort of a politics thing.) 2016-05-24T07:38:29Z groovy2shoes: aeth, keep the government small!! 2016-05-24T07:38:51Z phoe_work quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-24T07:39:01Z groovy2shoes: trump for president! 2016-05-24T07:39:05Z groovy2shoes: ugh -_- 2016-05-24T07:39:07Z aeth: Keep the municipal government small? 2016-05-24T07:39:28Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:39:28Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-24T07:39:38Z zadock joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:39:40Z groovy2shoes: I'm in favor of any policy that doesn't make Europeans go "wtf?" 2016-05-24T07:39:59Z groovy2shoes: and especially any policy that reduces the number of times Europeans say "wtf?" 2016-05-24T07:40:37Z zadock quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:41:08Z aeth: For anyone who works at home (a growing number), the local Internet is arguably more important than the local roads. 2016-05-24T07:41:13Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-24T07:41:50Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-24T07:42:24Z tmss joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:44:20Z aeth: but this got really off topic 2016-05-24T07:44:33Z aeth: People should use #lispcafe 2016-05-24T07:45:14Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T07:46:08Z loke` joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:46:08Z tmss quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T07:46:18Z groovy2shoes: ooo oo! I work from home! :D 2016-05-24T07:46:29Z loke`: tesy 2016-05-24T07:46:33Z groovy2shoes: usually... I was in the office today, but usually I'm 3 hours away in Charlotte 2016-05-24T07:47:31Z loke`: test. Im connected via emacs, erc on a machine i connected into from my phone using ssh 2016-05-24T07:47:35Z loke`: fun. 2016-05-24T07:47:35Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:48:26Z aeth: I've been using my phone to IRC via ssh probably since early 2010, when I first got an Android phone. 2016-05-24T07:49:08Z aeth: It's great. 2016-05-24T07:49:08Z Cymew: aeth: You type on the phone? 2016-05-24T07:49:58Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:50:12Z aeth: Cymew: with https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.pocketworkstation.pckeyboard 2016-05-24T07:50:35Z groovy2shoes: with the cable being out, I've got a portable hotspot on my phone that I'm chatting through atm... also amazing, and super useful 2016-05-24T07:50:46Z groovy2shoes: (and... might even be faster than time warner...) 2016-05-24T07:50:48Z aeth: A full (IBM PC style) software keyboard is especially good on a 7 inch tablet in portrait. 2016-05-24T07:50:57Z aeth: Obviously it's still slower than the real keyboard 2016-05-24T07:51:05Z groovy2shoes: hacker keyboard? 2016-05-24T07:51:12Z groovy2shoes: oh, nvm 2016-05-24T07:51:15Z groovy2shoes: missed the link 2016-05-24T07:51:21Z aeth: groovy2shoes: in the sense of https://news.ycombinator.com/news 2016-05-24T07:51:28Z aeth: not in the other sense of the word 'hacker' 2016-05-24T07:51:44Z Cymew: I am one of the few individiuals in Europe who bought a BlackBerry because I can't stand software keyboard and touchscreens. 2016-05-24T07:52:04Z aeth: Well, there is an error rate. 2016-05-24T07:52:21Z Cymew glances lovingly at his Q10 and its keyboard 2016-05-24T07:52:22Z groovy2shoes: aeth, I was asking if that's what you were using because that's what I use with termux 2016-05-24T07:52:38Z groovy2shoes: then read the scrollback and realized I missed your link, so it was a dumb question -_- 2016-05-24T07:52:51Z aeth: Every now and then (fortunately, rarely) I type a taboo word (or close) thanks to the really bad way QWERTY is arranged, but thus far I haven't submitted any, thankfully. 2016-05-24T07:53:07Z aeth: Just look at the closeness of certain letters and let your imagination figure out which words can pop up in typos 2016-05-24T07:53:28Z groovy2shoes: fyck 2016-05-24T07:53:29Z aeth: I don't use autocorrect because that doesn't really go well with terminal usage. 2016-05-24T07:53:52Z z0d: I don't know anyone who uses autocorrection 2016-05-24T07:53:55Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:54:47Z z0d: I don't like that phones lose connectivity if you switch to a different task and use it for a longer time 2016-05-24T07:55:56Z aeth: Well, I would never trust a local IRC client for that and many other reasons. 2016-05-24T07:56:05Z aeth: Every now and then I lose the SSH connection, but it's fine. 2016-05-24T07:57:18Z z0d: well, reconnecting to SSH on a phone isn't much better IMO 2016-05-24T07:57:38Z aeth: At least I see the messages I miss, but there are other ways, e.g. bouncers 2016-05-24T07:57:48Z aeth: But I think the whole thing might be due to limited RAM, which fortunately is getting better. 2016-05-24T07:58:40Z z0d: probably more because of the battery 2016-05-24T07:58:53Z araujo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:59:08Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T07:59:15Z aeth: I think my current phone only has 512 MB RAM... SBCL takes up about 100 MB on *launch*. 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bare X11, Motif, gtk, KDE, Cocoa, others? 2016-05-24T10:58:48Z fe[nl]ix: jackdaniel: mcclim has a lot of cool half-baked ideas 2016-05-24T11:01:44Z dim: maybe an emacs implementation then? 2016-05-24T11:03:23Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:04:28Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:04:59Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:08:41Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:09:02Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: yeah, that's true 2016-05-24T11:09:12Z jackdaniel: I hope to improve it a little at least 2016-05-24T11:09:17Z jackdaniel: dim: climacs? :P 2016-05-24T11:09:17Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-24T11:09:58Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:09:59Z jackdaniel: and goate (not sure if it works though, will know soon probably) 2016-05-24T11:11:59Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:16:49Z flip214: well, the most important thing would be vim-compatible keybindings, of course. ;] 2016-05-24T11:17:25Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T11:18:07Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:19:15Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:20:59Z TMA left #lisp 2016-05-24T11:21:11Z TMA joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:25:02Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T11:28:11Z igam quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T11:33:06Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:37:28Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:37:54Z ukari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T11:38:26Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:40:15Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:46:40Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:47:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:49:20Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:50:01Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T11:50:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:51:25Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:51:29Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T11:51:46Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:55:10Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-24T11:55:37Z grublet joined #lisp 2016-05-24T11:56:57Z Cymew: ...and python bindings for CLIM 2016-05-24T11:58:50Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:00:04Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:02:12Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:02:24Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:02:49Z gilez is now known as Guest94845 2016-05-24T12:03:45Z hjudt_: can someone give me a code example for connecting to an oracle db using hu.dwim.rdbms(.oracle)? documentation is pretty lacking, and i don't want to read the many screenfuls of library code. the only example i have found so far is for connecting to postgresql. 2016-05-24T12:06:04Z hjudt_: mood: i have finally been able to build hu.dwim.rdbms.documentation. iolib was missing the libpostfix on my system, resulting in a compiler error. 2016-05-24T12:06:53Z hjudt_: s/libpostfix/libfixposix 2016-05-24T12:16:36Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:17:14Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:18:02Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T12:18:36Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:19:01Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:21:34Z mauricar joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:25:04Z maucar quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:34:01Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:35:09Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:37:17Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:39:24Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:40:36Z prion_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:43:43Z yrk joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:47:14Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:48:52Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:53:00Z dim: jackdaniel: oh. of course. 2016-05-24T12:54:10Z jackdaniel: goate demo works well enough :) 2016-05-24T12:54:26Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T12:57:13Z dim: as in you would use it as your main editor and implement a swank frontend to it? 2016-05-24T12:58:58Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T12:59:40Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T12:59:50Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T13:00:30Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T13:01:03Z splittist: dim: climacs had/s swine, and in-image way to interact with swank. 2016-05-24T13:01:08Z splittist: s/and/an/ 2016-05-24T13:01:42Z atgreen joined #lisp 2016-05-24T13:02:07Z dim: pretty advanced/modern then right? 2016-05-24T13:02:42Z atgreen: groovy2shoes, eh?? Red Hatter here. What did Red Hat do wrong? 2016-05-24T13:02:59Z Jos`sanic joined #lisp 2016-05-24T13:04:24Z yrk quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T13:04:50Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T13:05:04Z jackdaniel: dim: I'd got with climacs and drei 2016-05-24T13:05:23Z jackdaniel: (drei is a "editor substrate" extracted from climacs and merged back to mcclim at some point of time) 2016-05-24T13:05:27Z jackdaniel: climacs uses drei 2016-05-24T13:07:19Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T13:07:41Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T13:08:27Z dim: so which toolkit is it using? 2016-05-24T13:08:43Z dim: I've had problems with all of them in osx I think 2016-05-24T13:09:03Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T13:09:09Z dim: well I didn't try motif of bare x11 to be honest 2016-05-24T13:09:26Z jackdaniel: climacs uses mcclim, but the backend depnds on what you have set as default – probably X11 2016-05-24T13:09:29Z ukari joined 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CLX, something with parsing DISPLAY variable in OS X, This PR https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/pull/21 addressed the issue I encountered, so it may be useful if you want to try again 2016-05-24T15:09:03Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:09:15Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:13:35Z wooden_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T15:15:41Z ipmonger_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T15:16:48Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:19:07Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T15:19:41Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:20:26Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T15:21:18Z mauricar joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:24:55Z mauricari quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T15:26:18Z br0kenman` joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:28:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:28:37Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:29:13Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T15:30:15Z mrottenkolber quit (Ping timeout: 258 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2016-05-24T15:45:52Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:45:52Z Zackio joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:46:37Z didi: If I want to print a object differently, should I use `defclass's :writer slot? What should be the function's signature? 2016-05-24T15:46:50Z jerme quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T15:46:54Z Fleurety quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T15:46:54Z aphprentice quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T15:47:13Z Xach: didi: that is not for printing, that is for setting the slot value. 2016-05-24T15:47:23Z Xach: didi: customize PRINT-OBJECT to change how it is printed. 2016-05-24T15:47:25Z rme: didi: You can specialize print-object. The :writer slot is something else entirely. 2016-05-24T15:47:26Z aphprentice joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:47:34Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T15:47:43Z Xach: didi: see also DESCRIBE-OBJECT 2016-05-24T15:47:45Z didi: oic. Thank you Xach and rme. 2016-05-24T15:47:50Z didi: Xach: I will. 2016-05-24T15:47:58Z Fleurety joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:47:59Z phoe_work: didi: poke phoe_krk in about an hour, I once wrote a tiny defprint macro. 2016-05-24T15:48:00Z jdz: didi: i wonder which documentation you're using? 2016-05-24T15:48:01Z AntiSpamMeta joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:48:15Z phoe_work: I need to clean all of this up and put up a utility library of my own. 2016-05-24T15:48:20Z phoe_work runs off from work 2016-05-24T15:48:22Z phoe_work quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-24T15:48:39Z Fleurety quit (K-Lined) 2016-05-24T15:48:52Z rme: :writer slot option, I should say 2016-05-24T15:49:19Z didi: phoe_krk: I don't know if I will be here in an hour, but I appreciate it. 2016-05-24T15:51:45Z fourier joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:51:56Z Xach tears hair out over an apparent chunking decoding bug in net.aserve.client:do-http-request 2016-05-24T15:52:26Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T15:52:36Z Xach hopes he is actually using the latest version 2016-05-24T15:53:10Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:54:34Z didi left #lisp 2016-05-24T15:55:11Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-24T15:55:50Z fourier quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T15:56:19Z Jos`sanic quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T15:57:33Z gingerale quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T15:57:33Z bege quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T15:57:33Z knobo quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T15:57:33Z Zackio quit (*.net *.split) 2016-05-24T15:58:04Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-24T15:59:03Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:03:29Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:05:28Z jasom: If someone who uses windows could try out https://github.com/jasom/lispstick-automate/releases/download/0.1/lispstick-sbcl-1.3.5-emacs-24.4.zip I'd appreciate it. 2016-05-24T16:05:56Z jasom: I made some scripts for automating generation of lispsticks so that it's less work. This is the first result 2016-05-24T16:06:15Z jasom: I have a windows 10 vm that I did some smoke-testing in. 2016-05-24T16:06:16Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:06:16Z bege joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:06:16Z knobo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:06:16Z Zackio joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:06:36Z atgreen quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:06:58Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T16:08:39Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:09:07Z pepton4 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:10:53Z Denommus quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:12:38Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:12:46Z beach: Good evening everyone! 2016-05-24T16:13:25Z moore33: beach: Hello. 2016-05-24T16:15:05Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T16:16:07Z rme: Hi. 2016-05-24T16:18:09Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:18:44Z optikalmouse joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:19:27Z rm34D quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T16:19:58Z rm34D joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:20:04Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:21:31Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:21:51Z beach: I didn't start writing the paper on general bootstrapping issues today, mainly because I couldn't decide where in the file hierarchy to put it. On such days, it is best not to attempt too complicated tasks. 2016-05-24T16:25:45Z Yuuhi joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:27:01Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:28:11Z milanj joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:30:02Z BitPuffin|osx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T16:32:07Z pecg joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:33:04Z Denommus joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:35:00Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:37:29Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T16:38:15Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:40:04Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:43:55Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-05-24T16:44:40Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T16:45:21Z Xach: hmm, does anyone know of a handy public site that is provided via a chunked encoding? 2016-05-24T16:45:40Z Xach: i used to use amazon.com, but it does some anti-bot stuff that makes it unsuitable for my testing 2016-05-24T16:45:43Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-24T16:48:20Z 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2016-05-24T18:30:28Z sjl__ is now known as sjl 2016-05-24T18:31:10Z oGMo: i don't think the kernel takes 160MB :P 2016-05-24T18:31:25Z akkad: on arm the kernel offloads some memory addresses to userland. 2016-05-24T18:31:44Z akkad: @belguhi 2016-05-24T18:33:30Z p_l: oGMo: I meant "160 MB for linux the OS" 2016-05-24T18:34:03Z p_l: it's configured at boot time when IOMMU (or just the equivalent of PCI BARs) get configured 2016-05-24T18:34:06Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-24T18:34:10Z akkad: linus is just a coronel 2016-05-24T18:34:44Z p_l: some of it is shared between application cpu and modem as interface, some of it is for sole access by modem, some of it is for sole access by linux, some of it is for use by GPU 2016-05-24T18:35:16Z p_l: you have multiple clients attached to one memory controller with different ACLs and allocations :) 2016-05-24T18:35:47Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T18:36:00Z p_l: (said phone was also unusual compared to the competition at the 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2016-05-24T20:35:32Z nubileuno quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T20:35:38Z jackdaniel: what does 2016-05-24T20:35:53Z jackdaniel: (declaim (ftype (function (*) (values T)) ce)) ; mean ? 2016-05-24T20:35:59Z jackdaniel: I mean the argument specifier 2016-05-24T20:36:22Z jackdaniel: it means that the function arguments aren't specified, right? 2016-05-24T20:37:51Z jackdaniel can't find the meaning of (*) in typespec lurking through the hyperspec 2016-05-24T20:38:04Z Bike: um... i think it's invalid syntax. if it's not it would mean that it takes one argument of undefined type. 2016-05-24T20:38:35Z loic_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:38:39Z jackdaniel: ah, right, it would be without the parens otherwise 2016-05-24T20:38:53Z jackdaniel: esrap makes such declamation and sbcl, ccl etc doesn't choke on it 2016-05-24T20:39:02Z Bike: yes, i see. 2016-05-24T20:39:03Z jackdaniel: but ECL says, that * isn't valid type declaration 2016-05-24T20:39:17Z Bike: sbcl parses it as (function (t) ...) 2016-05-24T20:39:44Z jackdaniel: how did you verify that? (curious) 2016-05-24T20:39:59Z Bike: declaimed it on something, checked the type output by DESCRIBE 2016-05-24T20:40:05Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:40:09Z jackdaniel: so basically it's incorrect syntax, but for sake of making things work I should do the same? 2016-05-24T20:40:16Z jackdaniel: ah 2016-05-24T20:40:22Z Bike: no, you should do (t). 2016-05-24T20:40:27Z Bike: because that's definitely valid. 2016-05-24T20:40:37Z jackdaniel: I mean – in ECL compiler 2016-05-24T20:40:53Z jackdaniel: should it coerce (*) to (t), or signal condition that it's not a valid specifier 2016-05-24T20:41:25Z Bike: well, it would be * as T, actually. 2016-05-24T20:41:38Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T20:41:42Z Bike: clhs 4.2.3 2016-05-24T20:41:42Z specbot: Type Specifiers: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/04_bc.htm 2016-05-24T20:41:56Z Bike: "Except as explicitly stated otherwise, the subsidiary items can be unspecified. The unspecified subsidiary items are indicated by writing *." I guess it's okay, then. 2016-05-24T20:42:28Z jackdaniel: ah, that was the information I was missing 2016-05-24T20:42:31Z jackdaniel: thanks! 2016-05-24T20:42:45Z Bike: I think it's a bit unnecessary. you only actually need a distinction between T and * for complex and array. 2016-05-24T20:43:00Z foom joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:43:00Z Bike: and both of those explicitly allow a *. 2016-05-24T20:44:24Z jathd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T20:44:40Z anabain joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:45:54Z DavidGuru quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T20:45:57Z anabain: newbie question: which packages do I need no install on ubuntu to get a lisp interpreter? 2016-05-24T20:46:32Z ecraven: anabain: usually sbcl fits the bill 2016-05-24T20:46:45Z anabain: ok 2016-05-24T20:46:55Z dlowe: it's a compiler, though. 2016-05-24T20:46:56Z anabain: thanx 2016-05-24T20:47:14Z dlowe: though from everything except a performance standpoint it doesn't matter that much. 2016-05-24T20:47:19Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:47:24Z ghcx joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:48:10Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:48:16Z anabain: and is there anything more like guile? 2016-05-24T20:48:52Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-24T20:49:15Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:50:47Z pavelpenev: anabain: sbcl and ccl are both very well suited, although the repl is very bare bones(you don't have things like history, etc.) For that you'll need to set up emacs and slime. 2016-05-24T20:51:02Z dlowe: you don't have to set up emacs and slime 2016-05-24T20:51:09Z Joreji quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T20:51:11Z catato_ quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-24T20:51:16Z dlowe: anabain: what about guile do you like? 2016-05-24T20:52:24Z gingerale- quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T20:52:26Z pavelpenev: anabain, dlowe: right, you can use http://utopia.knoware.nl/~hlub/rlwrap/ 2016-05-24T20:52:31Z anabain: dlowe, nothing special, as I said I'm a newbie and I've only used guile for some basic Scheme code 2016-05-24T20:53:15Z anabain: I want to know more about lisp in general and I wanted some basic tool to test code 2016-05-24T20:53:36Z pavelpenev: anabain: rlwrap and lisp http://www.cliki.net/rlwrap 2016-05-24T20:53:40Z Petit_Dejeuner: anabain: any of the major implementations will include a basic repl for you to enter commands into 2016-05-24T20:56:02Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-24T20:56:13Z ghcx left #lisp 2016-05-24T20:58:48Z moredhel quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T20:59:47Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T20:59:56Z dlowe: I would use rlfe rather than rlwrap 2016-05-24T21:03:15Z dlowe: they're all kind of the same, though 2016-05-24T21:03:30Z moei quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-24T21:04:23Z Ven joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:08:06Z vaitel quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T21:10:30Z akkad hunts for a package to talk to unix domain sockets 2016-05-24T21:13:43Z TCZ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:15:01Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: IOlib 2016-05-24T21:15:09Z jackdaniel: I was about to say the same 2016-05-24T21:16:04Z Demosthe1ex joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:16:11Z akkad: fe[nl]ix: ty 2016-05-24T21:16:53Z Demosthe1ex: so i know there's a few packages that try to modernize CL, but i don't know any names off the top of my head. can anyone suggest one? 2016-05-24T21:17:38Z akkad: anything OTHER than iolib? :P 2016-05-24T21:18:06Z s00pcan quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:18:17Z Demosthe1ex: i had a project to tinker on that i've used CL before, but if i'm going to work on another, i'd like to try one the of refined dialects 2016-05-24T21:18:20Z fe[nl]ix: akkad: what's the matter ? 2016-05-24T21:20:10Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T21:21:15Z anabain quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T21:24:07Z anabain joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:28:50Z blub: why aren't strings and characters just symbols in common lisp 2016-05-24T21:29:07Z blub: mutability with strings makes sense as a reason, but i don't understand about characters 2016-05-24T21:31:04Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-24T21:32:15Z Ven quit (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-24T21:35:44Z attila_lendvai quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:35:51Z aeth: blub: strings aren't just symbols because strings are sequences, so you can e.g. do sequence operations on them. 2016-05-24T21:36:03Z aeth: Immutable strings would be nice, but so would immutable sequences in general. 2016-05-24T21:36:25Z blub: for the times you want that, you can just explode them tho 2016-05-24T21:36:31Z blub: and it's a significant savings for the times you don't 2016-05-24T21:36:40Z bigfondue quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:36:58Z aeth: blub: characters have to be special because strings are just vectors of characters 2016-05-24T21:37:04Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:37:07Z aeth: If strings were vectors of symbols, how would that even work? 2016-05-24T21:37:16Z blub: what do you mean 2016-05-24T21:37:33Z groovy2shoes: aeth, what would immutable sequences afford you that mutable ones don't? 2016-05-24T21:39:04Z aeth: blub: (make-array 6 :element-type 'character :initial-contents '(#\f #\o #\o #\b #\a #\r)) 2016-05-24T21:39:11Z aeth: That's "foobar" 2016-05-24T21:39:16Z blub: right 2016-05-24T21:39:25Z aeth: groovy2shoes: Thread safety? 2016-05-24T21:39:27Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:39:30Z blub: what's wrong with :element-type 'symbol, why is that 'how would that even work' 2016-05-24T21:39:39Z pavelpenev: blub: a symbol is a structure named by a string (symbol-name :foo) => "FOO" how would symbols be named, if the name is an array of symbols? 2016-05-24T21:40:19Z blub: its how it worked in maclisp 2016-05-24T21:40:20Z aeth: blub: because what about a symbol with more than one length? 2016-05-24T21:40:37Z aeth: '(f o o zomg a r) 2016-05-24T21:41:18Z aeth: Even if that worked, it would be "FOOZOMGAR" because of how CL works with its upcase reader 2016-05-24T21:41:38Z groovy2shoes: aeth, can you elaborate? I'm not sure I follow :/ 2016-05-24T21:41:49Z blub: '(\f \o \o |zomg| \a \r) 2016-05-24T21:43:32Z aeth: groovy2shoes: (make-array 6 :element-type 'symbol :initial-contents '(\f \o \o |zomg| \a \r)) ; #(|f| |o| |o| |zomg| |a| |r|) 2016-05-24T21:43:47Z blub: using symbols for characters and strings works, as a decade of maclisp proved, but then with common lisp they made the switch to characters and strings as special types, so i'm curious what the benefits were that that change was deemed worthwhile 2016-05-24T21:43:50Z aeth: It's not as simple as the "foobar" returned from the char example because of that more than one length 2016-05-24T21:44:45Z aeth: There are many possible ways to handle this: you can error (only take length one), you could break the length and have "foozomgar" which is not length 6, you could just take the first character and have "foozar" etc. None of these options are good 2016-05-24T21:44:51Z aeth: The error would probably be the most CL-style 2016-05-24T21:45:24Z aeth: Also, what happens if the symbol belongs to another package and so is technically foo-bar-baz::|f| instead of |f|? 2016-05-24T21:45:52Z blub: obviously it would just be its print name 2016-05-24T21:46:30Z aeth: blub: There are a ton of advantages to fixed-length, typed vectors that can be upgraded. That's why strings are that way. 2016-05-24T21:46:43Z blub: strings i sort of understand, not characters 2016-05-24T21:46:46Z aeth: If anything, this has only gotten more important now with the focus on CPU cache for performance. 2016-05-24T21:47:23Z aeth: "foobar" is better in memory than '(\f \o \o \b \a \r) 2016-05-24T21:47:35Z groovy2shoes: hmm? 2016-05-24T21:47:43Z groovy2shoes: what's that got to do with immutable sequences? 2016-05-24T21:47:51Z blub: well we were talking #(\f \o \o \b \a \r) i imagine 2016-05-24T21:48:04Z aeth: groovy2shoes: there are two conversations going on, I got confused 2016-05-24T21:48:13Z blub: just why is it (vector character) and not (vector symbol) 2016-05-24T21:48:17Z aeth: blub: yes, which isn't how the early lisps did it, because they didn't even have vectors 2016-05-24T21:48:36Z blub: yes and that's a sensible change to make 2016-05-24T21:48:50Z groovy2shoes: aeth, oh, np :) 2016-05-24T21:49:01Z blub: i'm asking about the logic for simultaenously changing :element-type 2016-05-24T21:49:06Z blub: and creating a new type to do so 2016-05-24T21:49:20Z aeth: groovy2shoes: anyway, being able to make sure that a sequence doesn't mutate means that I am sure that I am not going to get a race condition by a user of the sequence somewhere in another thread that shouldn't be mutating it 2016-05-24T21:49:47Z aeth: I have an i7, I want 4-8 threads in my program. 2016-05-24T21:49:58Z TMA: blub: you could in principle get rid of characters (use #/a which is a fixnum value instead of #\a character) 2016-05-24T21:50:37Z blub: that's what most real maclisp programs did 2016-05-24T21:50:39Z aeth: blub: I'm not sure \o is going to be as good in memory as #\o 2016-05-24T21:50:47Z blub: but x3j13 changed that 2016-05-24T21:52:41Z aeth: blub: I'm guessing that having characters gives an implementation more opportunities for optimization. CL isn't about ideological purity, it's about running things quickly. 2016-05-24T21:53:39Z aeth: CL competes with C, C++, C#, Java, etc., not with Ruby, Python, etc. 2016-05-24T21:54:15Z jdz: CL does not compete with anything 2016-05-24T21:54:15Z Bike: cl characters were designed to be more complicated than they are in practice. they can have multiple numbers associated for them, for formatting and other stuff. 2016-05-24T21:54:48Z adolf_st_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T21:55:02Z dwchandler: aeth: You imply that Ruby & Python are about ideological purity. You can't mean that, can you? ;-) 2016-05-24T21:55:18Z aeth: dwchandler: no, they're about running simple code slowly ;-) 2016-05-24T21:55:21Z aeth: dwchandler: Scheme is about purity 2016-05-24T21:55:31Z dwchandler: Better :) 2016-05-24T21:55:43Z aeth: Scheme is more typically in the scripting class of languages, though. 2016-05-24T21:56:06Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T21:56:11Z groovy2shoes: aeth, that almost seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to me... wouldn't stricter controls on mutation be preferable to no mutation at all? or even possibly by not sharing objects among separate threads directly? 2016-05-24T21:56:35Z blub: oh that's right bike 2016-05-24T21:56:40Z groovy2shoes: (also, I see people say that "purity" bit about Scheme quite a bit, but I don't buy it) 2016-05-24T21:56:40Z dwchandler: aeth: Scheme is Mycroft to CL's Sherlock 2016-05-24T21:56:44Z blub: i froget about how genera etc used them 2016-05-24T21:56:47Z blub: i mean forget 2016-05-24T21:57:10Z aeth: groovy2shoes: No, what I mean is that in my ideal CL, there is a sequence class. Then there is a mutable-sequence class and an immutable-sequence class. Immutable sequences can't change, mutable ones can. If you use e.g. map without side effects, you can easily refactor between the two. 2016-05-24T21:57:27Z aeth: Alternatively, perhaps only split vector between mutable and immutable. 2016-05-24T21:57:51Z groovy2shoes: hmm 2016-05-24T21:57:55Z jdz: aeth: a sequence is immutable if you don't mutate it 2016-05-24T21:58:00Z groovy2shoes: food for thought, for sure 2016-05-24T21:58:02Z groovy2shoes: thanks, aeth 2016-05-24T21:58:09Z aeth: jdz: Right, which is great if I have control over the entire ecosystem. 2016-05-24T21:58:10Z dxtr: What json library do you guys recommend? 2016-05-24T21:58:21Z aeth: jdz: If I'm writing a framework, I can't really stop my users from doing stupid things. 2016-05-24T21:58:34Z groovy2shoes: dxtr, none of them. s-exprs >>>>>> json 2016-05-24T21:58:40Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-24T21:58:40Z jdz: aeth: right, i was trying to understand this discussion that's going on :) 2016-05-24T21:59:29Z dxtr: groovy2shoes: And what library would you recommend for transforming json into s-exprs? 2016-05-24T21:59:33Z jdz: dxtr: many people are happy with st-json 2016-05-24T21:59:33Z adolf_st_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:00:03Z jdz: dxtr: there's also a blog which compares all(?) the JSON libraries 2016-05-24T22:00:08Z aeth: jdz: An immutable-sequence and/or an immutable-vector would be useful for frameworks, which seems to be what drives the popularity of languages in the 2010s. 2016-05-24T22:01:02Z jdz: aeth: CL has been around too long to bother with all the fancy stuff of the day 2016-05-24T22:01:20Z jdz: of course one can write an immutable sequence library 2016-05-24T22:01:29Z jdz: see how it works out 2016-05-24T22:01:51Z jdz: SBCL even has the extensible sequence thing 2016-05-24T22:02:25Z jdz: but it's not just about sequences, but data structures in general 2016-05-24T22:02:43Z aeth: The problem with custom sequences (immutable, lazy, etc.) is that you can't use built-ins like map, reduce, etc., in portable CL on them. 2016-05-24T22:02:46Z jdz: and algorithms are completely different once mutability is out of the picture 2016-05-24T22:02:52Z aeth: And even if you could use map, reduce, etc., they won't be as optimized 2016-05-24T22:03:46Z jdz: for me personally i'm OK with mutable data structures 2016-05-24T22:03:55Z pecg quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-24T22:04:08Z aeth: It totally depends on the program and on the part of the program. 2016-05-24T22:04:19Z jdz: exactly 2016-05-24T22:04:31Z loic_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T22:04:34Z aeth: I have areas full of setf and areas that are purely functional, all mixed together in one giant mess because it's CL :-p 2016-05-24T22:04:48Z jdz: now we're talking! 2016-05-24T22:04:54Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:05:00Z aeth: I would just like the purely functional stuff to be functional by the language rather than by convention 2016-05-24T22:05:21Z jdz: mapcar is purely functional 2016-05-24T22:05:23Z aeth: The CL way is to assimilate everything, like how CLOS added OOP. 2016-05-24T22:05:39Z aeth: jdz: no it's not, you can mutate within that easily. 2016-05-24T22:06:27Z aeth: (let ((foo 0)) (mapcar (lambda (x) (incf foo x)) '(1 2 3 4 5)) foo) 2016-05-24T22:06:32Z jdz: #erlang is ----> that way, and #erlang-lisp ---^ that way 2016-05-24T22:06:59Z foom: CL hasn't assimilated anything for 30 years. ;p 2016-05-24T22:07:09Z aeth: You just need to modify a variable that's within the scope of the function being called in the mapcar/map/whatever to get the side effect. 2016-05-24T22:07:26Z aeth: I use "map nil" all the time (to make the intent clearer, and to work on all sequences) 2016-05-24T22:07:31Z jdz: foom: you sure? i bet every considerable size project has a few macros 2016-05-24T22:08:08Z aeth: foom: CLOS is better OOP than any other OOP. 2016-05-24T22:08:15Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:08:16Z aeth: foom: Now I want to see a CLFS that's better FP than any other FP 2016-05-24T22:08:19Z jdz: aeth: also, mapcar is still purely functional, the function you give it is up to you 2016-05-24T22:08:21Z aeth: And I'll mix it together in one giant mess 2016-05-24T22:08:22Z groovy2shoes: aeth, TELOS is even better :p 2016-05-24T22:08:26Z jdz: aeth: i see your point, though 2016-05-24T22:08:43Z groovy2shoes: and once I smooth out the kinks in EROS, it will take the crown for good! MWAHAHAHA 2016-05-24T22:08:50Z aeth: jdz: depends on what you mean... imo if you give it a function that mutates, that makes it not purely functional 2016-05-24T22:08:57Z aeth: s/if you give it/if you can give it/ 2016-05-24T22:09:09Z aeth: It's functional by convention, not in an enforced way. 2016-05-24T22:09:21Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:09:48Z aeth: By analogy, you can make your own object system out of closures or whatever fancier thing you want, but having CLOS built into CL helps. 2016-05-24T22:10:04Z aeth: CLOS as a library would completely change how CL works 2016-05-24T22:10:24Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:10:51Z foom: Would it really? CLOS has always seemed rather poorly integrated, to me. :) 2016-05-24T22:11:17Z foom: It's easy to see that it was a late addition to the standard. 2016-05-24T22:11:40Z groovy2shoes: foom, indeed! that's why I consider TELOS superior to CLOS... they're largely the same, except for the simple fact that every object in EuLisp is an instance of a TELOS class 2016-05-24T22:11:48Z aeth: foom: something as basic as (map 'vector #'foo '(1 2 3 4 5)) would probably not exist without CLOS 2016-05-24T22:12:04Z groovy2shoes: EuLisp also actually included a MOP in the standard :p 2016-05-24T22:12:16Z aeth: foom: you would probably have map-list (or map, or mapcar), map-vector, map-string, etc., and no function that automatically takes in all sequences and then returns any sequence 2016-05-24T22:12:29Z foom: aeth: Huh? that uses no CLOS. 2016-05-24T22:12:55Z aeth: foom: SEQUENCE is a class 2016-05-24T22:13:17Z jdz: well, map does not take classes as parameters 2016-05-24T22:13:23Z groovy2shoes: aeth, CLOS and similar sorts of object systems are actually fairly easy to implement on top of nearly any untyped language... though in many of them it gets rather ugly compared to the Lisp family, unless they were designed for it like Dylan 2016-05-24T22:13:51Z groovy2shoes: as a library, I mean 2016-05-24T22:14:15Z groovy2shoes: I implemented a CLOS-alike in pure Lua 5.1 once, multimethods and all 2016-05-24T22:14:42Z aeth: groovy2shoes: Lisp had OOP as libraries before CLOS 2016-05-24T22:14:53Z groovy2shoes: I'm aware 2016-05-24T22:15:02Z groovy2shoes: what does that have to do with anything? 2016-05-24T22:15:17Z aeth: Lisp with OOP built in is better than Lisp with OOP as a library. 2016-05-24T22:15:28Z aeth: Lisp with pure functional programming built in would be better than the same thing as a library. 2016-05-24T22:15:37Z groovy2shoes: what I'm saying is that it really is practically just part of the standard library in Common Lisp 2016-05-24T22:15:54Z groovy2shoes: compare it to EuLisp or ISLISP and you'll see what it would look like if it were really a fundamental part of the language 2016-05-24T22:15:56Z foom: almost the only thing in CL that got updated to use CLOS is print-object. 2016-05-24T22:19:22Z jasom: aeth: PCL implements a lot of clos as a library 2016-05-24T22:19:40Z blub: do you use eulisp for things groovy2shoes 2016-05-24T22:19:49Z foom: map is a normal function, no CLOS in sight. I mean, Sequence is effectively just a deftype for (or vector list). 2016-05-24T22:20:03Z aeth: Oh, another reason not to use symbols instead of characters for strings... I now have 'f, 'o, etc., in tab completion in my SLIME REPL 2016-05-24T22:20:40Z aeth: oh wait, that reminds me 2016-05-24T22:21:15Z groovy2shoes: blub, yes 2016-05-24T22:21:31Z groovy2shoes: blub, it's my favorite programming language currently in existence 2016-05-24T22:21:35Z blub: the way sequence is locked down is a big wart on cl i think 2016-05-24T22:21:43Z blub: do you mind if i pm you about it a little 2016-05-24T22:21:56Z groovy2shoes: blub, not at all! :) 2016-05-24T22:22:31Z aeth: (make-array 7 :element-type 'character :initial-contents #(#\T #\h #\e #\Space #\E #\n #\d)) 2016-05-24T22:22:36Z aeth: Now do that with symbols :-p 2016-05-24T22:22:53Z pjb quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T22:22:53Z aeth: \T is T, i.e. true. 2016-05-24T22:23:01Z aeth: Now suddenly you have a boolean as part of your string 2016-05-24T22:23:47Z Raggs joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:24:35Z blub: huh ? 2016-05-24T22:24:46Z blub: t is a symbol as well 2016-05-24T22:24:55Z blub: the same way nil is a symbol, a boolean, and a list 2016-05-24T22:25:11Z aeth: yes, and in the same way 0 has a lot of roles too 2016-05-24T22:25:20Z moei joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:27:44Z gigetoo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:28:03Z aeth: blub: I agree that locking sequences is a terrible idea in CL. 2016-05-24T22:28:32Z aeth: Common Lisp needs more sequences. What were they thinking? That there would be a new standard in 5-15 years to add more? 2016-05-24T22:31:53Z aeth: Built-in immutable sequences would really only help with a handful of cases over just treating a particular sequence as immutable, but built-in lazy sequences could be very useful. 2016-05-24T22:32:25Z aeth: I think both are needed to compete with younger, more functional languages. 2016-05-24T22:33:09Z aeth: FP isn't that great unless your compiler can optimize it. 2016-05-24T22:35:33Z aeth: One advantage of immutable-vectors is that they would be upgraded without having to declare them as upgraded, since it's sure that your immutable #(#\f #\o #\o) will always only have characters, i.e. an immutable "foo". With mutation, #(#\f #\o #\o) is just a simple-vector. 2016-05-24T22:36:44Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:38:44Z Zhivago quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:39:53Z aeth: SBCL lets me do this with a warning, rather than not letting me do this, and upgrading the vector to a string: (let ((foo #(#\f #\o #\o))) (setf (aref foo 0) 1) foo) 2016-05-24T22:44:17Z aeth: This also works, with a warning: (let ((foo "foo")) (setf (aref foo 0) #\z) foo) 2016-05-24T22:44:44Z Bike: it's undefined. since both of those vectors are immutable, so to speak. 2016-05-24T22:46:02Z aeth: If it was defined, #(#\f #\o #\o) would be equivalent to "foo", though, since upgrading would be possible and in fact should be done. Not a big deal for strings, since strings have a more convenient "foo" already, but there is no literal #(1f0 1f0 1f0) that upgrades it to single-float, or something. 2016-05-24T22:46:16Z knobo1: Does any of you have a fast computer? 2016-05-24T22:46:28Z knobo1: And running linux 2016-05-24T22:46:28Z Bike: i have the fastest computer. won the triple crown 2016-05-24T22:46:59Z knobo1: I'd like you to see if this https://github.com/knobo/upload-file works on your computer. 2016-05-24T22:47:31Z Bike: aeth: there are situations where you want an (array t) of characters. like as something to pass to a function that only takes (array t)s. 2016-05-24T22:48:22Z aeth: Bike: the compiler could decide not to upgrade it if it's later passed into a place that only takes (array t)s 2016-05-24T22:48:55Z knobo1: I have a problem uploading files to a woo web server. 2016-05-24T22:48:59Z Bike: that's not always possible. in most cases the compiler would be unable to see how it's used. 2016-05-24T22:49:27Z knobo1: And it looks like there is no problem on OS X. 2016-05-24T22:49:29Z Bike: knobo1: what file is this uploading? 2016-05-24T22:49:38Z knobo1: Bike: zeros 2016-05-24T22:50:07Z Bike: well, i guess as long as it's not passwd 2016-05-24T22:50:13Z knobo1: Bike: var file = new Blob([new Uint8Array($scope.size)], {type: 'application/octet-stream'}); 2016-05-24T22:50:47Z aeth: Bike: true, so there should be a way to define a typed literal vector, perhaps even with compile-type coersion like turning #(1 0 0) into single-float if it's single float. Afaik, once you make-array, it is mutable, even if you fill it with initial-contents and don't expect it to mutate. 2016-05-24T22:50:51Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:51:21Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-24T22:51:22Z Bike: arrays made by make-array are mutable, yes. and literal typed array syntax would be nice. 2016-05-24T22:51:28Z aeth: And even #(1 2 3) and '(1 2 3) can't be relied on not to be set 2016-05-24T22:51:31Z Bike: though i wouldn't want coercion, personally 2016-05-24T22:51:44Z Bike: yeah they can. modifying them is undefined. 2016-05-24T22:52:17Z aeth: what you could do is just extend make-array to add two new keywords: coerce and immutable, and then rely on reader macros etc. if you want it to be more concise 2016-05-24T22:52:29Z aeth: coerce of course would default to nil to keep current behavior 2016-05-24T22:52:32Z Bike: knobo1: load failed, sorry. i don't have libev and cffi failed somewhere or another. 2016-05-24T22:52:54Z bikeshedr quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:53:02Z aeth: Something like this would be great: (make-array 5 :element-type 'single-float :immutable t :coerce t :initial-contents '(1 2 3 4 5)) 2016-05-24T22:53:18Z Bike: i don't think the coercion part is important. 2016-05-24T22:53:30Z aeth: no, immutable would be more important, coercion just keeps it concise 2016-05-24T22:53:42Z knobo1: Bike: apt-get install libev4 2016-05-24T22:53:52Z knobo1: if you have debian based distro 2016-05-24T22:55:41Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T22:55:43Z aeth: Anyway, with immutable t I could simultaneously have the typed arrays and the warning and/or error and/or whatever when you try to mutate them 2016-05-24T22:56:10Z isoraqathedh: I wonder if I can get away with it if I used \t instead of just t. 2016-05-24T22:56:53Z isoraqathedh: (I mean, I once named a variable argument\(s\), which is arguably pretty evil but. 2016-05-24T22:56:53Z aeth: (It's undefined, so maybe it should delete a random file on your computer when you try to mutate immutable data. /s) 2016-05-24T22:56:55Z isoraqathedh: ) 2016-05-24T22:57:48Z isoraqathedh: No, this is a completely different symbol, with the name "t". The actual truth value is "T". 2016-05-24T22:58:04Z isoraqathedh: s/is "/has the name "/ 2016-05-24T22:58:17Z aeth: isoraqathedh: you can use \T instead of t 2016-05-24T22:58:45Z aeth: You can also use 't, or mix and match 2016-05-24T22:58:52Z aeth: (when ''''''''\T "hello") 2016-05-24T22:59:33Z isoraqathedh: Does that work? I have a feeling that it doesn't. 2016-05-24T22:59:39Z isoraqathedh: Oh wait, yes it does. 2016-05-24T22:59:43Z isoraqathedh: A list is also true. 2016-05-24T22:59:55Z aeth: (when ''''''''\T (+ '1 '2)) 2016-05-24T23:00:11Z isoraqathedh: Doesn't it have to be '\1? 2016-05-24T23:00:19Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-24T23:00:37Z isoraqathedh: Oh, no, not at all. 2016-05-24T23:01:03Z Yuuhi quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T23:01:58Z aeth: When you play around with reader macros, you learn all sorts of ugly truths about the language 2016-05-24T23:02:25Z blub: the reader by default upcases things, escaping lowercase letters prevents them from being upcased 2016-05-24T23:04:28Z aeth: For a language where the point is writing programs with programs, upcase is a terrible idea because no one writes the actual language in upcase. If you want to write s-expressions to a file, you have to do something like use the :invert case, which won't always be what you want, either. 2016-05-24T23:04:43Z blub: '\1, the \ means don't treat 1 specially (don't upcase it, if it were a paren or a space or whatever just treat it as part of a symbol, etc), the ' means don't evaluate it, integers evaluate to themselves anyway 2016-05-24T23:05:02Z Bike: the backslash also forces it to be read as a symbol. 2016-05-24T23:05:33Z isoraqathedh: Isn't the one you want :downcase? 2016-05-24T23:05:36Z Bike: you could do (let ((\1 2)) (+ \1 \1)) though. 2016-05-24T23:06:06Z aeth: isoraqathedh: no because then it foo will be |FOO| iirc 2016-05-24T23:06:30Z aeth: isoraqathedh: because you put in 'foo, stored it as an s-expression, and are now writing the stored s-expression, which is now 'FOO 2016-05-24T23:06:32Z isoraqathedh: :downcase to print, :upcase to read. 2016-05-24T23:06:33Z papachan` quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:06:55Z isoraqathedh: Oh right, writers don't transform symbol names. 2016-05-24T23:07:04Z isoraqathedh: Bleegh. This exam is making me have knowledge whiplash. 2016-05-24T23:07:30Z aeth: You have to use :invert and hope that someone isn't writing code with \o etc. for your system :-p 2016-05-24T23:07:41Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:08:29Z isoraqathedh: Sexps as a configuration file format has always amused me, but it gets slightly annoying. 2016-05-24T23:08:54Z isoraqathedh: My keboard maps " to a dead key, so there's a great disincentive to have to explicitly doublequote strings. But I have to. 2016-05-24T23:08:57Z aeth: The trick is to subset. The subset that seems to work well for configuration files is proper plists that use keywords 2016-05-24T23:09:00Z TCZ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-24T23:09:25Z isoraqathedh: I usually use alists with some plists sometimes. 2016-05-24T23:09:41Z isoraqathedh: (The plists usually come in the form (key . plist), which looks natural.) 2016-05-24T23:09:56Z aeth: interesting 2016-05-24T23:09:58Z isoraqathedh: But I'm more annoyed at typing the dang thing. 2016-05-24T23:10:44Z isoraqathedh: http://pastebin.com/NxDGZKLb 2016-05-24T23:10:51Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:10:57Z isoraqathedh: This is the config file that I use for one of my projects. 2016-05-24T23:11:06Z aeth: Maybe I should be doing '(:foo . (:bar :baz)) instead of '(:foo :bar :baz) 2016-05-24T23:11:34Z isoraqathedh: Unfortunately, there are several annoying things: quoted strings everywhere, and impossible to update programmatically without losing all the comments. 2016-05-24T23:11:48Z Petit_Dejeuner: Oh, that is annoying. 2016-05-24T23:11:53Z aeth: comments? 2016-05-24T23:11:54Z aeth: :-p 2016-05-24T23:11:58Z isoraqathedh: ;; comments 2016-05-24T23:12:10Z isoraqathedh: (In before "why did you post an empty line?") 2016-05-24T23:12:25Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:12:32Z aeth: isoraqathedh: probably because you wanted no value without doing (values) 2016-05-24T23:12:49Z aeth: ; is shorter than (values) in the REPL 2016-05-24T23:13:30Z isoraqathedh: I'm thinking about replacing sexps with YAML, which looks great but has not-so-great Lisp support. 2016-05-24T23:13:46Z isoraqathedh: (One of the libraries is read-only, and the other one depends on pip working, which I cannot…) 2016-05-24T23:15:51Z Petit_Dejeuner: Does YAML have comments? 2016-05-24T23:15:52Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:15:59Z isoraqathedh: Yes. 2016-05-24T23:16:10Z isoraqathedh: (Actually, I don't think they preserve them either. D'oh!) 2016-05-24T23:16:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: This is how it ends. Not with a bang... 2016-05-24T23:17:22Z isoraqathedh: I mean, there's always the nuclear option – a docstring… 2016-05-24T23:18:18Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:19:40Z aeth: isoraqathedh: I am going the opposite direction and will probably make a formal .sxp format, complete with validation. 2016-05-24T23:20:20Z aeth: Of course, much later. Right now I just have the minimum I need to move on to the next thing. 2016-05-24T23:22:52Z nikki93 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-24T23:24:19Z aeth: What I am probably going to do is checksum and cache the data stuff, for faster loading. 2016-05-24T23:24:51Z isoraqathedh: My completely lazy way: 2016-05-24T23:25:00Z isoraqathedh: (defvar *whatever* nil …) 2016-05-24T23:25:22Z isoraqathedh: (setf *whatever* (read filestream)) 2016-05-24T23:25:57Z aeth: I think I have gotten rid of all of my *foo*s except one. 2016-05-24T23:26:17Z isoraqathedh: Yeah, I should refactor to remove configs. 2016-05-24T23:26:23Z isoraqathedh: s/config/global variable/ 2016-05-24T23:26:51Z isoraqathedh: Right now I have *config* and *state*, but it's fairly trivial to roll one into the other. 2016-05-24T23:27:09Z aeth: I used to even have my game's entity component system as *ecs*, but now the ecs is passed where needed 2016-05-24T23:27:19Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:27:41Z Kaisyu quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-24T23:28:20Z aeth: Unfortunately, OpenGL and SDL2 actively fight good design principles, as most C things do. Maybe I'll be able to do a Lisp-style mostly-functional renderer in cl-vulkan 2016-05-24T23:32:54Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:34:53Z Demosthe1ex left #lisp 2016-05-24T23:36:59Z groovy2shoes: aeth, what's the purpose of threading a singleton value through your entire call graph? 2016-05-24T23:37:21Z groovy2shoes: I mean, what do you gain from doing that versus just having a global singleton? 2016-05-24T23:37:54Z groovy2shoes: does it have to do with avoiding mutability? 2016-05-24T23:40:21Z aeth: groovy2shoes: First, it's only accessed where I want it to be. Second, now I can have more than one, for "free". 2016-05-24T23:40:46Z aeth: groovy2shoes: so e.g. now I can have different regions, with different entities in the different regions, and they don't need to know about each other, and you don't need to check to see if one region's entities are renderable or something 2016-05-24T23:40:46Z groovy2shoes: ah 2016-05-24T23:40:54Z aeth: Mostly #2 2016-05-24T23:40:56Z groovy2shoes: oh that sounds neat 2016-05-24T23:41:09Z groovy2shoes: cool :) 2016-05-24T23:41:23Z groovy2shoes: aeth, thanks for putting up with my stupid questions 2016-05-24T23:41:51Z aeth: So e.g. now only the physics and AI need to know about all the entities, and maybe the ones outside of the active region get weaker physics/AI so I can simulate more things 2016-05-24T23:42:01Z groovy2shoes: I'm designing a language of my own, and of course one of those topics I'm going to have to grapple with at some point, especially in the face of concurrency, is what to do about mutable values 2016-05-24T23:42:20Z aeth: oh, if you want a functional design, do not look at my game engine 2016-05-24T23:42:36Z aeth: It's a bit of a mess, especially since I'm mostly doing input and rendering code right now, which cannot be functional. 2016-05-24T23:42:46Z groovy2shoes: well, I hadn't planned on making the language particularly functional 2016-05-24T23:42:52Z groovy2shoes: at least, not in the modern sense of the word 2016-05-24T23:42:57Z Vicfred joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:43:50Z aeth: groovy2shoes: The most useful thing about purely functional languages is being lazy. Even Scheme is adding some laziness now. 2016-05-24T23:44:05Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation 2016-05-24T23:44:11Z aeth: You don't need to be purely functional to take advantage of that. 2016-05-24T23:44:46Z aeth: The other thing that they focus on is types iirc. I don't quite understand this because I have never really used Haskell. 2016-05-24T23:44:51Z dwchandler: lazy can come in handy, but the most useful things are referential transparency and that thing nobody has quite done yet 2016-05-24T23:45:31Z Bike: referential transparency means no restarts. isn't it sad 2016-05-24T23:45:44Z dwchandler: the thing not done being that theoretically the compiler can parallelize your program for you 2016-05-24T23:46:13Z groovy2shoes: aeth, Scheme has had some lazy evaluation for quite some time 2016-05-24T23:46:28Z aeth: dwchandler: I think the issue is that usually things are parallelized on GPUs now, which behave differently. 2016-05-24T23:47:17Z DeadTrickster_ joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:47:35Z dwchandler: next you'll be telling me that the kids today are using docker on GPUs 2016-05-24T23:47:48Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:47:48Z Zhivago quit (Changing host) 2016-05-24T23:47:48Z Zhivago joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:48:02Z groovy2shoes: I only have as far back as R4RS handy at the moment, but it had delay and force back in 1991 at least 2016-05-24T23:49:18Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:49:18Z aeth: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/ 2016-05-24T23:49:21Z aeth: ah, I see, it's in r5rs 2016-05-24T23:49:47Z zRecursive: aeth: Is scheme relative to CL ? 2016-05-24T23:49:51Z dwchandler: which means somebody was already doing it and it got into r5rs 2016-05-24T23:50:29Z groovy2shoes: it was in R4RS, too 2016-05-24T23:50:57Z aeth: okay, that's still pretty recent, given how old the Lisp family is 2016-05-24T23:51:45Z groovy2shoes: technically, all you need for lazy evaluation is lambda 2016-05-24T23:51:49Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-24T23:51:55Z groovy2shoes: oh, and, ideally lexical scope as well 2016-05-24T23:52:12Z sweater_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-24T23:52:52Z Zhivago: Schema is one of the main ancestors of CL. 2016-05-24T23:53:01Z Zhivago: er, Scheme, rather. 2016-05-24T23:53:12Z aeth: groovy2shoes: but if there are 20 trivial but non-standard implementations, it's effectively useless... also, optimizations can be done if it's built in iirc 2016-05-24T23:53:14Z groovy2shoes: (define lazy-twice-x (lambda () (* x 2))) 2016-05-24T23:53:24Z Zhivago: Scheme is where CL gets its lexical scoping from. :) 2016-05-24T23:54:10Z aeth: groovy2shoes: e.g. good luck reading my s-expression configs and isoraqathedh's s-expression configs and the other 20 s-expression configs... they're all trivial, but all incompatible and different too 2016-05-24T23:54:27Z groovy2shoes: aeth, I agree that the "uncomprehensiveness" of the Scheme report is a problem with the language, if that's what you mean 2016-05-24T23:55:01Z aeth: groovy2shoes: actually afaik, this is one of those cases where the problem is CL not Scheme, since it's standard in Scheme and not standard in CL 2016-05-24T23:55:02Z groovy2shoes: and I think that the resistence of the Scheme community at large to grow the language beyond R5RS is also a problem with the language 2016-05-24T23:55:22Z aeth: Although in CL's case generally it's 20 incompatible libraries rather than 20 incompatible implementations, which is a bit better 2016-05-24T23:55:24Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:55:44Z groovy2shoes: (defmacro delay (exp) `(lambda () ,exp)) 2016-05-24T23:56:08Z groovy2shoes: (defun force (promise) (funcall #'promise)) 2016-05-24T23:56:11Z isoraqathedh: Literally the only thing I can guarantee about sexp-based configs is that they are made of sexps. 2016-05-24T23:56:44Z groovy2shoes: mmmm sexps 2016-05-24T23:56:53Z aeth: groovy2shoes: Isn't this a case where you want memoization and other optimizations? You can write anything in any other language (usually), but it's not equally fast in every language. 2016-05-24T23:57:10Z aeth: So, yes, the slow version is trivial. 2016-05-24T23:57:19Z groovy2shoes: even memoization of a promise is trivial with lexical closures... left as an exercise for the reader 2016-05-24T23:57:42Z Zhivago: Unfortunately as soon as you introduce lexical closures you lose introspection and serialization. 2016-05-24T23:57:43Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-24T23:59:04Z aeth: The ideal language rewards good style with fast execution 2016-05-24T23:59:22Z aeth: (basically the anti-C) 2016-05-25T00:00:28Z groovy2shoes: heheh :) 2016-05-25T00:00:42Z groovy2shoes: brb, dinner 2016-05-25T00:00:46Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:01:09Z gilez is now known as Guest81939 2016-05-25T00:01:33Z zRecursive: Scheme is always being developed ... 2016-05-25T00:03:42Z aeth: C and C++ reward this sort of style, apparently: http://number-none.com/blow/john_carmack_on_inlined_code.html 2016-05-25T00:04:05Z aeth: That article was linked to from this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11760978 2016-05-25T00:04:15Z aeth: (well, I mean that thread, it's in the child of that comment) 2016-05-25T00:06:23Z aeth: The world needs a mostly functional 3D game engine in CL or Scheme. Most of the work is on the GPU these days, anyway. 2016-05-25T00:07:03Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:07:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: There was something being done in Racket, but it was just a 3D renderer. 2016-05-25T00:07:14Z Petit_Dejeuner: And then there's that common lisp thing. 2016-05-25T00:07:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: Let me look tha tup. 2016-05-25T00:07:32Z Zhivago: Well, they have them for javascript, so I don't see why not. 2016-05-25T00:07:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: CEPL 2016-05-25T00:07:38Z Petit_Dejeuner: CEPL for common lisp 2016-05-25T00:07:45Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: there are quite a few things being done in #lispgames (which is more like ##lisp-games than #lisp-games since it includes Scheme, etc.) 2016-05-25T00:07:47Z Petit_Dejeuner: racket has pict3d 2016-05-25T00:08:10Z aeth: I always found it funny how the CL channels are the only ones that don't use hyphens when CL is one of the few languages that uses hyphens 2016-05-25T00:09:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: #lispGames 2016-05-25T00:09:18Z aeth: that is valid due to case insensitivity 2016-05-25T00:10:07Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:10:33Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:10:35Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: What's wrong with opengl and sdl2? I assume you were talking about global objects in opengl, but what about sdl2? 2016-05-25T00:11:33Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: there's CEPL, clinch, sketch, and a few others. 2016-05-25T00:12:10Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:12:40Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: opengl is all about the implicit state of global objects... very ugly... I suspect cl-vulkan will be ugly in its own ways, but since Vulkan is lower level, hopefully there will be less of a performance penalty to wrapping it so I might actually wrap it (if cl-vulkan doesn't do it well enough) 2016-05-25T00:13:26Z aeth: I am going to use OpenGL for now, though, since an engine that works is more important than an engine that's mostly functional 2016-05-25T00:13:27Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:14:04Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: SDL2 is still about handling state, in this case input state like which keys are down, which mouse buttons are down, etc. 2016-05-25T00:14:44Z aeth: It's possible that I can think of an abstraction that will work for SDL, or it's possible that I will have to eventually go lower level to do so. 2016-05-25T00:15:23Z akkad: iolib is sooo amazing... 2016-05-25T00:15:37Z Petit_Dejeuner: aeth: How would you prefer it? Something like allegro where you define callbacks? 2016-05-25T00:15:46Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:16:03Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:16:10Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: I am not sure how I would prefer it. I guess I'll have to write code I don't like and then find a better way later. 2016-05-25T00:16:41Z Petit_Dejeuner: Wait, nevermind. I'm not thinking of allegro. 2016-05-25T00:17:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: I'm thinking of this. https://github.com/resttime/cl-liballegro/blob/master/examples/lispy-interface.lisp 2016-05-25T00:17:18Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:17:19Z aeth: Petit_Dejeuner: I could try to base something on a CLIM subset. I could try to base something on functional reactive programming. There are lots of ways. I'm not sure if any are fast enough for a game engine. 2016-05-25T00:17:43Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:19:40Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:20:36Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:20:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:21:04Z aeth: I'm also not sure if SDL2 is low enough level to be used as a backend for a better way to handle input and windows, or if I would have to write for X, Wayland, Mir, Windows, etc. 2016-05-25T00:22:28Z akkad: (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0) (debug 0))) ;; seems to be used a lot by iolib. must put there everywhere for that cc(1) -OMG equivalent 2016-05-25T00:34:34Z Guest81939 quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:42:39Z jsgrant_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:44:30Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:45:52Z JoshYoshi quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:47:12Z miek` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:48:50Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-25T00:49:07Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T00:49:32Z DeadTrickster_ quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T00:50:50Z miek`: Build factor from source churns and throws up endless error dialogs till it crashes. 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I'm working to load this into Cando (Clasp for molecular design) and generate the input for a molecular dynamics program. 2016-05-25T02:36:19Z drmeister: Let's see if Boehm or MPS can handle loading it all into memory and manipulate it. 2016-05-25T02:37:56Z drmeister: Here it is looking down the fiber: http://i.imgur.com/bSRJ4CS.png 2016-05-25T02:38:17Z drmeister: This is how your DNA is assembled inside your cells. 2016-05-25T02:38:40Z drmeister: Hmm 'structured' is a better word. 2016-05-25T02:39:11Z Petit_Dejeuner: Looks like confetti from this scale. 2016-05-25T02:39:16Z Bike: how many bases long is that? i guess a lot, if it's straight 2016-05-25T02:41:15Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T02:41:57Z drmeister: Hang on - let me see if I can figure that out. 2016-05-25T02:42:05Z drmeister: I can't figure it out right now. 2016-05-25T02:42:25Z drmeister: It's too big, I have to load it and then I can interrogate it. 2016-05-25T02:43:00Z Bike: that's fair. thing looks like a noisy CA. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjCYRZQUoAQ4lRT.jpg 2016-05-25T02:44:26Z drmeister: VMD (visualization program) throws up malloc errors when I load it and carbons are not drawn. 2016-05-25T02:44:53Z drmeister: Is that chromatin? 2016-05-25T02:46:14Z Bike: no, it's output of a neuron model i was working on 2016-05-25T02:46:32Z Bike: pretty much the same as the chromatin though, if less colorful 2016-05-25T02:47:22Z harish joined #lisp 2016-05-25T02:47:33Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T02:47:56Z drmeister: "A wink's as good as a nod to a blind bat" 2016-05-25T02:48:51Z Bike: i think we're all blind bats when trying to get information out of a picture of 11.7 structured atoms 2016-05-25T02:49:14Z Bike: it just ain't enough 2016-05-25T02:51:22Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T02:51:22Z |2701 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-25T02:58:50Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T02:59:24Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T02:59:53Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:00:35Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T03:01:12Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:02:42Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-25T03:04:46Z akkad: jackdaniel: oddly on fbsd lw does great. on linux sbcl seems to do much better. 2016-05-25T03:06:24Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:06:50Z arescorpio quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-25T03:18:45Z zRecursive quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:20:29Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:20:58Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:21:12Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T03:21:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:22:05Z adolf_stalin quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T03:22:15Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:25:35Z mikaelj quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:26:22Z mikaelj joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:26:27Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:31:42Z genericus left #lisp 2016-05-25T03:41:11Z kobain quit (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 2016-05-25T03:41:29Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:42:06Z jbakid quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T03:43:43Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:44:47Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:45:36Z agidyne quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T03:47:49Z drmeister: It takes 31 seconds to build a LIST of 10,000,000 atoms in Clasp. 2016-05-25T03:47:57Z drmeister: It doesn't even blink - this is going to be good. 2016-05-25T03:48:20Z drmeister: Freakin' VMD (molecular viewer) throws up malloc errors loading 11.6 atoms. Hah! 2016-05-25T03:48:47Z drmeister: Cando, not Clasp - Clasp doesn't know CHEM:ATOM 2016-05-25T03:49:10Z drmeister: With Boehm Cando allocates 4.8GB 2016-05-25T03:49:44Z Bike: dag. 2016-05-25T03:50:54Z |3b|: sounds like fun :) 2016-05-25T03:51:15Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:51:44Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:51:51Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-25T03:52:11Z drmeister: Hi beach 2016-05-25T03:53:01Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-25T03:53:05Z Bike: so what can you do with the model? i assume you're not solving maxwell's equations 2016-05-25T03:53:16Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/P5zZddXr/ 2016-05-25T03:53:41Z Bike: "invalidHeader"? 2016-05-25T03:53:45Z drmeister: It's a simple challenge - load the PDB and generate a file called a "topology" file. 2016-05-25T03:54:01Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T03:55:45Z drmeister: Clasp and Cando run in three different garbage collector modes. (1) Boehm using C++ dynamic_cast (2) Boehm with integer stamps (unique integer ID for each class) in the header (3) MPS with integer stamps in the header. 2016-05-25T03:56:19Z drmeister: (1) is used for boostrapping - that's what I'm running here because I have to run the static analyzer on the 350 C++ source files (about 12 hours) to generate the unique integer stamps for each class. 2016-05-25T03:56:41Z drmeister: In that mode, every header is "invalid" because it doesn't have a stamp. 2016-05-25T03:56:53Z Bike: hrm. 2016-05-25T03:56:55Z drmeister: I should remove that message, I agree it is alarming. 2016-05-25T03:57:24Z drmeister: But that is the total size of all live objects in memory 2016-05-25T03:57:31Z Bike: no, well, if you know what it means it's fine. 2016-05-25T03:57:35Z Bike: fine... ish. 2016-05-25T03:57:49Z drmeister: If it requires explanation - I should get rid of it. 2016-05-25T03:57:53Z Bike: can you have not have a different room function for each mode? 2016-05-25T03:58:42Z drmeister: I do for Boehm and MPS but this is still a Boehm mode - there's history and inattention to detail here. 2016-05-25T03:58:46Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T03:59:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:01:29Z drmeister: Fixed - or rather - made less alarming. 2016-05-25T04:02:02Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:04:43Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:04:48Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:05:21Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:09:28Z NeverDie_ quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-25T04:09:55Z NeverDie joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:18:36Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T04:19:49Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:20:10Z NeverDie_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:21:09Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:23:12Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-25T04:23:26Z NeverDie quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:24:30Z NeverDie_ is now known as NeverDie 2016-05-25T04:27:05Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:32:36Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/drjohn/iwalkonguildedsplinters.html no place seems to get near to right on this but this was the best 2016-05-25T04:32:42Z housel joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:33:04Z JuanDaugherty: o sorry wrong channel 2016-05-25T04:34:02Z Harag quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:34:04Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:37:37Z defaultxr quit (Quit: gnight) 2016-05-25T04:38:04Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T04:41:06Z beach: Bike: I think you are right that it would be fairly easy to generate LLVM assembly code from something like Cleavir. 2016-05-25T04:41:23Z beach: ... as opposed to LLVM bitcode. 2016-05-25T04:42:23Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-25T04:42:23Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-25T04:45:59Z nikki93 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:52:18Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:52:27Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:52:39Z smokeink_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:53:21Z smokeink_ quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T04:53:36Z smokeink quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T04:53:58Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:54:34Z sword joined #lisp 2016-05-25T04:55:46Z drmeister: I can allocate up to 6GB using the Boehm GC and then it goes belly up. 2016-05-25T04:57:45Z drmeister: beach: Sure, it looks a lot like any other assembly code. 2016-05-25T05:08:20Z ism joined #lisp 2016-05-25T05:08:32Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-25T05:11:12Z loke: drmeister: Did you do a git push -f on this repository? 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2016-05-25T05:40:59Z zRecursive: Shouldnot it terminate the loop once meeting the :until clause ? 2016-05-25T05:44:15Z beach: zRecursive: What happens when you STRING-TRIM NIL? 2016-05-25T05:44:23Z Bike: beach: there have been a few conversations here lately about the "low level" part of SICL... i think we're all a bit curious as to the strategy 2016-05-25T05:44:36Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-25T05:46:25Z beach: Bike: I can tell you that if you want, but in this particular case, I was more thinking of Clasp, where it would be possible to bootstrap it without using the C++ interface to LLVM, and instead generate LLVM assembly code files. 2016-05-25T05:47:13Z beach: zRecursive: You STRING-TRIM NIL which makes it turn into the string "NIL" which is not NULL, so the test fails. 2016-05-25T05:47:19Z Bike: mm, yes. if you already have SSA or something close it shouldn't be much trouble at all. 2016-05-25T05:47:25Z zRecursive: beach: (string-trim '(#\return #\linefeed) nil) => nil 2016-05-25T05:47:38Z beach: zRecursive: Nope. 2016-05-25T05:47:40Z Bike: no, it's => "NIL" 2016-05-25T05:48:22Z Bike: oh, because it takes a string designator. weird. 2016-05-25T05:48:48Z zRecursive: Oh, i see. 2016-05-25T05:49:30Z zRecursive: (stringp (string-trim '(#\return #\linefeed) nil)) => T 2016-05-25T05:49:47Z bikeshedr joined #lisp 2016-05-25T05:50:21Z zRecursive: weird string-trim ? 2016-05-25T05:50:41Z zRecursive: nil => "NIL" 2016-05-25T05:51:29Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T05:51:29Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-25T05:51:33Z Bike: yes, because it takes a string designator. symbols are string designators, so it uses the symbol-name of nil. 2016-05-25T05:51:56Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T05:52:01Z Bike: (string-trim "L" "NIL") => stale joke 2016-05-25T05:52:29Z blub: read-line should strip the newlines anyway 2016-05-25T05:56:27Z zRecursive quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T05:56:56Z beach: zRecursive: You are welcome. At your service. Anytime. Sheesh! 2016-05-25T06:03:55Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:04:17Z FreeBird_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T06:04:38Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:10:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T06:11:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:11:19Z attila_lendvai quit (Changing host) 2016-05-25T06:11:19Z attila_lendvai joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:16:48Z jackdaniel: akkad: probably sbcl is optimized for linux better 2016-05-25T06:17:02Z jackdaniel: good morning to all :) 2016-05-25T06:21:45Z blub: hi jackdaniel 2016-05-25T06:23:09Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T06:23:41Z jackdaniel: is there a way to invite minion to channel? 2016-05-25T06:23:57Z jackdaniel: I lack memos on #ecl :P 2016-05-25T06:24:12Z jackdaniel: minion: how to invite you? 2016-05-25T06:24:12Z minion: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 2016-05-25T06:24:43Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:27:03Z eazar001 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T06:27:08Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:32:23Z beach: Hello jackdaniel. 2016-05-25T06:33:39Z attila_lendvai quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-25T06:42:09Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:44:59Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:45:14Z jackdaniel: I've fixed yesterday the ftype declaration bug (thanks to Bike's advice I didn't introduce a new one :) 2016-05-25T06:45:31Z jackdaniel: I had to add exactly four characters 2016-05-25T06:47:34Z harish quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T06:50:55Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-25T06:51:34Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-25T06:52:04Z aries_liuxueyang quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-25T06:53:29Z aries_liuxueyang joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:54:25Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-25T06:55:18Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-25T06:56:46Z Xal quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-25T06:59:31Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:01:47Z zRecursive left #lisp 2016-05-25T07:05:55Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T07:09:56Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T07:10:24Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:13:41Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:13:46Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:19:03Z pobivan_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:20:08Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:20:28Z JuanDaugherty quit (Quit: Hibernate, reboot, etc.) 2016-05-25T07:21:12Z pobivan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T07:21:13Z pobivan_ is now known as pobivan 2016-05-25T07:33:17Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-25T07:35:26Z Munksgaard joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:38:25Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:38:35Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:38:55Z loke: jackdaniel: Is there a way I can see the generated C code from a compiled ECL function? DISASSEMBLE doesn't work on compiled functions. 2016-05-25T07:41:16Z jackdaniel: hah, this is something to be fixed 2016-05-25T07:41:36Z jackdaniel: as a workaround you may put your function in a file, and compile-file has an additional key arguments 2016-05-25T07:41:42Z jackdaniel: c-file h-file data-file 2016-05-25T07:41:50Z jackdaniel: so you will be able to inspect the generated code 2016-05-25T07:41:52Z jackdaniel: loke: ↑ 2016-05-25T07:42:13Z loke: Ah I see 2016-05-25T07:42:19Z loke: Thanks! 2016-05-25T07:42:22Z jackdaniel: sure :) 2016-05-25T07:42:28Z loke: Oh, and one more thing: 2016-05-25T07:42:39Z loke: I'm having problems compiling libraries with CFFI 2016-05-25T07:43:04Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl/issues/106 <- 2016-05-25T07:43:05Z jackdaniel: what problem? 2016-05-25T07:43:27Z loke: Hang on 1 minute. I just cleared the QL cache and recompiling to make sure I have a fresh test case. 2016-05-25T07:43:43Z jackdaniel: OK, I'll grab my coffee 2016-05-25T07:44:16Z p_l: ... gah, SICP instruction manual will cost me 4.5× what I paid for SICP :< 2016-05-25T07:44:18Z loke: OK, I'm consistently getting this error when trying to load, say, CL-GSS: 2016-05-25T07:44:20Z loke: :INPUT argument to RUN-PROGRAM does not have a file handle: 2016-05-25T07:44:20Z loke: # 2016-05-25T07:44:38Z loke: p_l: how much did you pay for SICP? 2016-05-25T07:44:45Z jackdaniel: loke: a, you need to run it from a console (unfortunately) 2016-05-25T07:44:56Z jackdaniel: I have a mild idea how to implement it, but it's not trivial 2016-05-25T07:45:12Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-25T07:45:38Z loke: OK, testing 2016-05-25T07:46:14Z loke: That worked. Thanks! 2016-05-25T07:46:19Z p_l: loke: https://goo.gl/photos/DXRVmscAFLYqZgaw8 2016-05-25T07:46:21Z jackdaniel: it's a problem that swank replaces *standard-input*, *standard-output* etc with gray streams, what doesn't play nice with the external process 2016-05-25T07:46:26Z jackdaniel: which needs a handle 2016-05-25T07:46:28Z loke: Now trying to continue loading Potato to see if I can get ECL to run it. 2016-05-25T07:46:32Z p_l: so, actually, instructor's manual will cost me 23× the textbook xD 2016-05-25T07:46:37Z jackdaniel: the idea is to create a thread which maintains such handle 2016-05-25T07:47:01Z p_l now noticed he has the first edition apparently 2016-05-25T07:47:10Z jackdaniel: loke: nice, thanks – such portability work is something I really appreciate :) 2016-05-25T07:47:12Z loke: I think we have a compy here it the office. 2016-05-25T07:47:40Z loke: jackdaniel: I think I had some unsurmountable problems last time I tried. Some feature that I needed which ECL doesn't have. 2016-05-25T07:47:46Z loke: Currently, only SBCL and CCL runs it. 2016-05-25T07:47:57Z loke: I can _almost_ get ABCL to work with it. 2016-05-25T07:48:19Z jackdaniel: loke: please report it on gitlab, I'll add a feature label and wont forget about the problem 2016-05-25T07:48:32Z loke: jackdaniel: Another error though 2016-05-25T07:49:10Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/f780dd2a4bcd0e745f9122840a3cb334 2016-05-25T07:49:19Z loke: jackdaniel: You have any idea what could be the cause of that one? 2016-05-25T07:50:14Z jackdaniel: hm, I've fixed that in iolib I suppose – it's something with argument parsing 2016-05-25T07:50:25Z jackdaniel: did you tried the git version of iolib? 2016-05-25T07:50:35Z loke: No. Getting it from QL 2016-05-25T07:50:38Z jackdaniel: also, please work on ecl-16.1.2, it has many improvements 2016-05-25T07:51:28Z loke: where is the ECL source repository? 2016-05-25T07:51:38Z jackdaniel: https://gitlab.com/embeddable-common-lisp/ecl 2016-05-25T07:51:57Z loke: Thanks, testing. 2016-05-25T07:52:07Z jackdaniel: loke: I think that this commit fixes it https://github.com/sionescu/iolib/commit/c48211c78c0213177b7c18ad04aa60c609161b85 2016-05-25T07:52:12Z jackdaniel: your problem that is 2016-05-25T07:52:19Z jackdaniel: loke: take branch master for a release 2016-05-25T07:54:39Z loke: Compiling. 2016-05-25T07:55:13Z jackdaniel: Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping ;) 2016-05-25T07:55:31Z loke: actually, still git cloning. It's very slow for some reason. 2016-05-25T07:56:00Z jackdaniel: heh 2016-05-25T07:56:21Z loke: Compiling 2016-05-25T07:56:58Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-25T07:56:59Z tanuzzo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:02:03Z loke: jackdaniel: This is with master versions of iolib and ecl, trying to simply load iolib immediately after starting it: 2016-05-25T08:02:03Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/3c81acd5909f01421a14a5162109532d 2016-05-25T08:02:14Z Wizek joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:03:43Z jackdaniel: loke: try putting 'g++ -m64 -Wno-write-strings -D_GNU_SOURCE -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64 -g -O2 -fPIC -D_THREAD_SAFE -Dlinux -I/home/emartenson/src/iolib/src/grovel/ -o /home/emartenson/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-16.1.2-d76d7ace-linux-x64/home/emartenson/src/iolib/src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix /home/emartenson/.cache/common-lisp/ecl-16.1.2-d76d7ace-linux-x64/home/emartenson/src/iolib/src/syscalls/ffi-types-unix.c 2016-05-25T08:03:49Z jackdaniel: ' 2016-05-25T08:03:51Z jackdaniel: in the command line by yourself 2016-05-25T08:03:54Z jackdaniel: you'll see the actual error probably 2016-05-25T08:04:05Z loke: jackdaniel: That worked fine 2016-05-25T08:04:33Z jackdaniel: then it's something very similar to the fix I've linked to you – maybe somewhere else it doesn't split it correctly 2016-05-25T08:04:43Z jackdaniel: wait, I'll try to load iolib on ecl 2016-05-25T08:05:10Z mvilleneuve_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:05:35Z cods_ is now known as cods 2016-05-25T08:05:44Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:05:51Z jackdaniel: on my host ° 2016-05-25T08:05:58Z jackdaniel: hah, I have the same issue 2016-05-25T08:06:13Z loke: OK, thanks. :-) 2016-05-25T08:06:18Z loke: At least it's not my fault. 2016-05-25T08:06:45Z jackdaniel: loke: it seems you may not have a libfixposix 2016-05-25T08:06:51Z jackdaniel: at least it's error on my host 2016-05-25T08:07:17Z jackdaniel: I'll install it and verify, if it helps 2016-05-25T08:07:45Z jackdaniel: I'll probably bundle it with the ecl build process in contrib, so this stuff won't come back over and over again 2016-05-25T08:07:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T08:08:12Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:08:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:08:47Z jackdaniel: yeah, installing lfp caused the compilation to finish 2016-05-25T08:08:57Z jackdaniel: libfixposix is iolib requirement afaik 2016-05-25T08:09:25Z jackdaniel: it's in the iolib's readme 2016-05-25T08:09:40Z jackdaniel: loke: ↑ 2016-05-25T08:09:55Z loke: jackdaniel: I jave lfp. 2016-05-25T08:10:02Z loke: I mean, the think loads on all other CL's 2016-05-25T08:10:07Z loke: thing 2016-05-25T08:10:20Z jackdaniel: uhm, well, iolib load fine on my host after installing it 2016-05-25T08:10:55Z jackdaniel: I'll clear the cache to be sure 2016-05-25T08:11:48Z loke: I cleared the cache and used ABCL. It loaded iolib fine. 2016-05-25T08:12:30Z loke: So in my case I doubt it's an iolib problem. 2016-05-25T08:12:40Z loke: I mean lfp 2016-05-25T08:13:19Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:13:51Z Beetny joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:14:05Z jackdaniel: loke: http://ix.io/L04 – with clean cache 2016-05-25T08:14:21Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-25T08:14:35Z jackdaniel: so you do have /usr/lib/libfixposix.so ? 2016-05-25T08:15:10Z loke: Of course. 2016-05-25T08:15:18Z jackdaniel: wait, I have iolib on my local-projects 2016-05-25T08:15:19Z loke: Like I said, it's being used properly on both ABCL and SBCL 2016-05-25T08:15:22Z jackdaniel: I'll try with the quicklisp 2016-05-25T08:15:33Z loke: I'm trying with latest git iolib 2016-05-25T08:15:54Z loke: IOLIB version 0fef8c11703751f63150d75f5a4d1a73b3537053 2016-05-25T08:15:56Z loke: to be exact 2016-05-25T08:17:26Z jackdaniel: but the quicklisp version doesn't work as well, right? 2016-05-25T08:17:43Z loke: Different error I think. Let me check. 2016-05-25T08:17:52Z jackdaniel: recompiling (removed cache and iolib from local-projects) 2016-05-25T08:18:08Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:18:23Z cods quit (Changing host) 2016-05-25T08:18:23Z cods joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:18:59Z loke: With QL version it gets further 2016-05-25T08:19:04Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:19:16Z loke: Actually, it loads successfully with the QL version. 2016-05-25T08:19:22Z loke: The previous error was my outdated ECL 2016-05-25T08:19:27Z jackdaniel: oh, that's good 2016-05-25T08:19:41Z loke: You can try with latest iolib then? 2016-05-25T08:19:50Z loke: Now trying to load Potato again. 2016-05-25T08:20:00Z jackdaniel: wait a minute, I'll finish to load the quicklisp version and try the git master one 2016-05-25T08:20:06Z jackdaniel: quicklisp's works fine 2016-05-25T08:21:03Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:21:35Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:21:45Z jackdaniel: compiling master 2016-05-25T08:22:51Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T08:23:07Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:24:52Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:25:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T08:25:23Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:26:55Z jackdaniel: loke: master version (0fef8c) loads fine here 2016-05-25T08:27:55Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:28:43Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:32:09Z DeadTrickster: have you guys ever met oauth(1/2) implementation for servers? 2016-05-25T08:33:28Z przl_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:34:07Z przl quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T08:34:33Z loke: OK, got another errro loading Potato 2016-05-25T08:35:25Z jackdaniel: mind sharing a paste? :) 2016-05-25T08:35:54Z scymtym: i would like to have the feature described in https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/19. since it has been rejected for inclusion in bordeaux-threads, the only option seems to be a separate library that redefines BT:MAKE-THREAD when loaded. iirc, such a redefinition behavior precludes inclusion in Quicklisp. does anybody have a better idea? 2016-05-25T08:36:30Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/11c977dfb7afa616e0a243d8fcc9024c 2016-05-25T08:36:34Z loke: There's the error 2016-05-25T08:36:54Z loke: DeadTrickster: Yes, that's what north is. 2016-05-25T08:36:55Z jackdaniel: scymtym: it's still wip, but https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/dkochmanski/ugly-processes works on top of bt 2016-05-25T08:37:08Z loke: Which happens to be what failed to load on ecl right now :-) 2016-05-25T08:37:12Z jackdaniel: somewhat broader abstraction reasembling things in allegro, ccl, lw etc apis 2016-05-25T08:37:25Z tanuzzo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:38:12Z jackdaniel: loke: this looks like a potato's assumption about something 2016-05-25T08:38:25Z jackdaniel: if you'll find, what's the problem and that ecl is non-conforming, please make an issue on gitlab 2016-05-25T08:38:32Z scymtym: jackdaniel: thanks, i will have a look. but i don't think an implementation on top of bt is possible 2016-05-25T08:38:49Z scymtym: i.e. with changing/redefining anything 2016-05-25T08:38:51Z loke: jackdaniel: I'm checking. But for now I'l just disabling oauth support. Not using it at the moment anyway. Just to get it to continue. 2016-05-25T08:38:56Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:39:08Z jackdaniel: OK – but if you'll find some time please get back to it a little 2016-05-25T08:39:13Z zacts joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:39:31Z loke: jackdaniel: Oh definitely. 2016-05-25T08:39:40Z loke: I'll look at that part tonight. 2016-05-25T08:40:45Z jackdaniel: scymtym: ugly-processes has stuff like initial-bindings 2016-05-25T08:41:34Z jackdaniel: scymtym: but right, it may not feat your purpose 2016-05-25T08:41:35Z DeadTrickster: loke, north? 2016-05-25T08:41:46Z loke: DeadTrickster: Shinmera's oauth library 2016-05-25T08:41:49Z loke: It's on QL 2016-05-25T08:41:57Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:43:22Z loke: jackdaniel: OK, got the error. It's weird. 2016-05-25T08:43:24Z loke: I'll show you: 2016-05-25T08:43:57Z loke: jackdaniel: It happens when I compile this function: 2016-05-25T08:43:57Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/gcm.lisp#L37 2016-05-25T08:44:10Z loke: The error is: 2016-05-25T08:44:12Z loke: Internal error: 2016-05-25T08:44:12Z loke: ** In method definition for INITIALIZE-INSTANCE, found an invalid specializer (GCM-REGISTRATION) 2016-05-25T08:44:42Z loke: The class GCM-REGISTRATION is a class with a custom metaclass. It's defined just above in the same file. 2016-05-25T08:45:46Z jackdaniel: is it possible that you could reduce it to the minimal reproductible case? So I can just load a small file and it will cry about just that? 2016-05-25T08:46:38Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:46:51Z jackdaniel: that said, you may be served better with closer-mop, which tries to make mop consitent between implementations 2016-05-25T08:47:01Z loke: jackc-: That's what I'm using. 2016-05-25T08:47:07Z jackdaniel: ah! 2016-05-25T08:47:14Z jackdaniel: interesting 2016-05-25T08:47:43Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:50:46Z jackdaniel: where persisted entry class is defined? 2016-05-25T08:50:48Z loke: jackdaniel: My initial attempt at making a tiny test case failed. 2016-05-25T08:50:57Z loke: jackdaniel: metaclasses.lisp 2016-05-25T08:51:02Z loke: Same directory 2016-05-25T08:54:32Z HeyFlash joined #lisp 2016-05-25T08:54:36Z jackdaniel: loke: OK, I'll just add it with the info we have 2016-05-25T08:54:51Z jackdaniel: I don't know how to fix this for now though 2016-05-25T08:54:59Z loke: jackdaniel: I wonder if it's related to the "(T) is not a type" error I keep getting 2016-05-25T08:55:22Z loke: Now I'm trying to compile user.lisp, and it crashes with the same error on the class definition of USER 2016-05-25T08:55:32Z jackdaniel: hm 2016-05-25T08:56:33Z loke: Removing the metaclass (and associated custom attributes) causes the error to go away 2016-05-25T08:56:40Z loke: so it definitely has something to do with the metaclass 2016-05-25T08:57:17Z jackdaniel: some small example would make it easy to test it on native mop and the closer-mop, to verify where the problem is 2016-05-25T08:57:37Z loke: Another weirdness: 2016-05-25T08:58:05Z loke: I copy&paste the class definition to the REPL and run it there, in the CL-USER package, and it works 2016-05-25T08:58:28Z loke: Trying to do it in the POTATO.CORE package causes it to fail with that error. 2016-05-25T08:58:48Z jackdaniel: loke: if you type something in repl, it is bytecompiled 2016-05-25T08:58:58Z jackdaniel: when you load the package it uses the C/C++ compiler 2016-05-25T08:59:06Z jackdaniel: so it might be a bug in the latter 2016-05-25T08:59:51Z loke: I tried that... 2016-05-25T09:00:12Z loke: I did (compile 'bar (lambda () (defclass ...))) and thenr an (BAR). 2016-05-25T09:00:15Z loke: That did not fail. 2016-05-25T09:00:34Z loke: ah wait 2016-05-25T09:00:53Z loke: You're right... (compile 'bar '(defclass user () ...)) 2016-05-25T09:00:56Z loke: then ran (BAR) 2016-05-25T09:00:58Z loke: and it fails. 2016-05-25T09:01:21Z loke: I'm compiling with (safety 3) (space 0) (speed 0) (debug 3) 2016-05-25T09:01:39Z jackdaniel: it's rather not an optimization issue, just a bug 2016-05-25T09:01:56Z bikeshedr quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T09:03:36Z jackdaniel: OK, I've copied this conversation to my notes, if you'll come up with some reproductible case it would be superb :) I've got to go now 2016-05-25T09:04:31Z loke: OK, thanks! 2016-05-25T09:04:57Z jackdaniel: thank you too, such corner-cases are hard to find by hand :) 2016-05-25T09:07:46Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:08:33Z zRecursive quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T09:09:45Z loke: jackdaniel: Potato exercises a lot of CL features :-) 2016-05-25T09:12:39Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:16:15Z mvilleneuve_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T09:16:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:22:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T09:25:48Z fe[nl]ix: scymtym: http://paste.lisp.org/+6SF1 2016-05-25T09:27:13Z scymtym: fe[nl]ix: the point is hooking into all threads, no matter who called bt:make-thread. like bt:*initial-bindings* does for special bindings 2016-05-25T09:28:23Z fe[nl]ix: I think that's generally a bad idea, and risks screwing up other libraries' threads badly 2016-05-25T09:29:15Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T09:29:32Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:29:42Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T09:30:56Z scymtym: isn't bt:*initial-bindings* the same? it is a building block that can be used responsibly and irresponsibly (like binding reader or printer settings around other people's thread functions) 2016-05-25T09:32:28Z fe[nl]ix: true, but at least it's easily debuggable 2016-05-25T09:32:39Z fe[nl]ix: and fortunately almost nobody uses that 2016-05-25T09:37:41Z scymtym: i think there are legitimate use-cases for these features. i will make a library as described above for experimentation. thanks again for your feedback. 2016-05-25T09:38:11Z fe[nl]ix: the only set of bindings that B-T enforces with that mechanism are those used by WITH-STANDARD-IO-SYNTAX 2016-05-25T09:38:36Z fe[nl]ix: because some implementations inherit the values from the parent thread, and some don't 2016-05-25T09:39:20Z fe[nl]ix: otherwise the right way to start a thread with new bindings is to pass an explicit set of bindings to MAKE-THREAD and not change things globally 2016-05-25T09:41:02Z xorox90 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:42:12Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T09:43:43Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T09:44:15Z scymtym: it doesn't have to be globally. one could run the main thread with (let ((bt:*default-special-bindings* '((bt:*default-special-bindings* . ...) ...))) ...) affecting all descendants of the thread without changing the global value 2016-05-25T09:45:37Z dim: I do that in pgloader with lparallel IIUC 2016-05-25T09:46:12Z dim: but well it's not in a lib context, it's application settings for running the application's code in worker threads 2016-05-25T09:47:03Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:48:14Z fe[nl]ix: scymtym: so in practice that's global 2016-05-25T09:51:11Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:52:13Z scymtym: fe[nl]ix: there is a difference. i agree that changing the global value of e.g. bt:*default-special-bindings* when loading a library is probably a bad idea. but when, as in dim's case, executing an application, establishing a particular context for all threads created in the dynamic contour seems reasonable to me. 2016-05-25T09:55:00Z fe[nl]ix: do you have an actual use case of good multi-threaded practice that cannot be done without this feature ? 2016-05-25T09:56:31Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T09:58:10Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:02:11Z scymtym: i think so: consider a "progress" condition (not a warning or an error), that can be signaled freely from long running operations without disturbing control flow (even if not handled). for the main thread, i can do (with-progress-report () ...) or similar and handle signaled progress conditions. however, progress conditions signaled from other threads (maybe lparallel workers running my code, maybe hunchentoot running my code, maybe 2016-05-25T10:02:11Z scymtym: something else) will not be handled. hooking into anything that might spawn a thread doesn't seem practical and, if attempted, requires detailed global knowledge about which thread runs which code. 2016-05-25T10:02:48Z dreamaddict joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:03:29Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:05:09Z dim: reacting on the specifics of the example use case, I use a monitoring thread with an monitoring lparallel queue in to handle that kind of things... 2016-05-25T10:05:26Z dreamaddict: earlier, I made a file, boilerplate.lisp, with some custom macros and whatnot...I added (load "boilerplate.lisp") to .sbclrc, and my macros evaluate wonderfully inside of the SLIME REPL...but C-c C-c won't compile it: my macro is "undefined" and evaluation fails as it usually does in those circumstances 2016-05-25T10:05:45Z dreamaddict: (the rest of the arguments don't evaluate properly either and you get 6 errors in a row) 2016-05-25T10:05:58Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:06:01Z igam: dreamaddict: (apropos "YOUR-MACRO") 2016-05-25T10:06:57Z dreamaddict: it says that it is (fbound) 2016-05-25T10:07:02Z dreamaddict: I have no idea what that means. 2016-05-25T10:07:50Z igam: dreamaddict: notably: (let ((*package* (find-package "KEYWORD"))) (apropos "YOUR-MACRO")) 2016-05-25T10:08:04Z igam: dreamaddict: fbound is normal for a macro. 2016-05-25T10:08:27Z igam: But what you want to notice, is that the symbol named "YOUR-MACRO" is interned in a specific package. 2016-05-25T10:08:59Z igam: I assume that when you compile a file, you have a defpackage definition and a in-package form. 2016-05-25T10:09:08Z igam: You must ensure that your macro is visible in that package. 2016-05-25T10:09:33Z igam: You can do that by _using_ the package that _exports_ the symbol naming the macro, or by _importing_ directly that symbol. 2016-05-25T10:09:47Z dreamaddict: so I must have them be (in-package :common-lisp-user)...? 2016-05-25T10:09:54Z igam: No. 2016-05-25T10:09:55Z dreamaddict: packages are still a bit fuzzy 2016-05-25T10:09:59Z dreamaddict: I am sorry 2016-05-25T10:10:05Z igam: common-lisp-user is for the REPL. Not for saved files. 2016-05-25T10:10:39Z igam: The best way to do it is to define a package in boilerplate.lisp, eg (defpackage "DREAMADDICT.BOILERPLATE" (:use "CL") (:export "YOUR-MACRO")) (in-package "DREAMADDICT.BOILERPLATE") 2016-05-25T10:10:57Z dreamaddict: ok nice nice, thank you 2016-05-25T10:11:10Z dreamaddict: that is what it should look like for now in order to be "legit" somewhat, enough to function properly 2016-05-25T10:11:10Z Oddity quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:11:22Z igam: Then in your other file, you can define (defpackage "YOUR-OTHER-PACKAGE" (:use "CL" "DREAMADDICT.BOILERPLATE")) (in-package "YOUR-OTHER-PACKAGE") (YOUR-MACRO foo bar baz) 2016-05-25T10:12:09Z igam: check out: http://gigamonkeys.com/book/programming-in-the-large-packages-and-symbols.html 2016-05-25T10:12:44Z dreamaddict: there are quite a few pages out there, right now I am reading Lisp on the Web and that is like square one 2016-05-25T10:13:02Z dreamaddict: as I was reading it I ran into the aforementioned problem, and so here I am :P 2016-05-25T10:13:45Z dreamaddict: also it is my fault because I have been extremely lazy about learning the packaging system for Lisp, which I now realize is because I never had to work with a packaging system in another language 2016-05-25T10:13:51Z DavidGuru quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T10:14:13Z dim: DeadTrickster: http://www.flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf is also a good read 2016-05-25T10:14:13Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:14:16Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:14:40Z dreamaddict: require.js made me throw up in my mouth a little bit 2016-05-25T10:14:42Z igam: Of course, another alternative would be to put everything in the same package, COMMON-LISP-USER for example, and therefore to add (in-package "COMMON-LISP-USER") at the beginning of all your files. But you can learn packages now, since you started writing separate files, so that you won't have to come back to edit all those in-package forms later when you learn about packages. 2016-05-25T10:15:15Z igam: dreamaddict: but otherwise, a good rule of thumb is indead to have a (in-package "…") at the beginning of all lisp files. 2016-05-25T10:15:22Z dreamaddict: most definitely 2016-05-25T10:15:39Z dreamaddict: I see now how much work just that can save...plus this is actually a very nice packaging system we get to work with 2016-05-25T10:15:40Z igam: there are some exceptions, when you define a file to be read into different packages, but it's rare. 2016-05-25T10:15:54Z dreamaddict: that won't be an issue yet, I am not too worried 2016-05-25T10:15:58Z Josh_2 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:16:01Z igam: Have fun! 2016-05-25T10:16:08Z dreamaddict: thank you sir! 2016-05-25T10:16:54Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-25T10:20:40Z JoshYoshi joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:22:14Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:22:48Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:22:49Z Oddity quit (Changing host) 2016-05-25T10:22:49Z Oddity joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:22:54Z Josh_2 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:23:11Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-25T10:24:27Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-25T10:24:47Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:25:01Z JoshYoshi quit (Read error: No route to host) 2016-05-25T10:26:30Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:27:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T10:28:13Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:28:24Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:29:06Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:31:20Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:31:46Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:40:18Z dreamaddict: it's still not working, somehow (not any worse, same as before) 2016-05-25T10:41:40Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/submit 2016-05-25T10:41:45Z dreamaddict: crap 2016-05-25T10:41:54Z dreamaddict: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316768 2016-05-25T10:42:37Z dreamaddict: that is the boilerplate.lisp file 2016-05-25T10:43:41Z dreamaddict: never mind I feel stupid 2016-05-25T10:43:47Z dreamaddict quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-25T10:44:12Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:47:33Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-25T10:52:34Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T10:57:35Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:00:54Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:02:52Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:04:14Z rgrau quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T11:06:26Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:09:34Z ski quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:10:48Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:11:24Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:12:25Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:13:05Z taij33n- quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:13:08Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:14:40Z taij33n joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:18:27Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:19:12Z theBlackDragon quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:19:21Z ski joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:28:49Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:33:52Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:35:23Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:36:27Z mingus quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T11:39:29Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-25T11:39:57Z mingus joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:44:07Z bikeshedr joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:45:34Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:50:33Z papachan` quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T11:55:20Z auwooo-0x71 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:55:37Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:56:41Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:56:41Z Trystam quit (Changing host) 2016-05-25T11:56:41Z Trystam joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:56:54Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-25T11:59:04Z Tristam quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T11:59:49Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:02:48Z auwooo-0x71 quit (K-Lined) 2016-05-25T12:03:33Z Blukunfando quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T12:04:07Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:04:29Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:04:30Z maucar quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-25T12:04:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T12:04:37Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:05:00Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:08:51Z mvilleneuve quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T12:08:57Z Trystam is now known as Tristam 2016-05-25T12:15:04Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:15:59Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:16:24Z mrottenkolber joined #lisp 2016-05-25T12:16:47Z AntiSpamMeta quit (Quit: Automatic restart triggered due to persistent lag. 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Touretzky's? 2016-05-25T14:04:36Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:04:38Z eudoxia: his book is good, but might be a bit dated. if you've programmed before, PCL is good 2016-05-25T14:05:12Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:05:59Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:06:19Z karswell joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:06:58Z anabain: PCL? 2016-05-25T14:07:19Z djh: Practical common lisp 2016-05-25T14:07:37Z djh: Online @ http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 2016-05-25T14:07:57Z anabain: thans 2016-05-25T14:08:01Z anabain: thanks 2016-05-25T14:09:24Z doby162: Does anyone here have a recommendation for a common lisp clicky-buttons-type gui library? My current game plan for the code I'm writing is to just make it work with lispbuilder-sdl because the dependencies are easy, but are there any better options I should know about? 2016-05-25T14:10:00Z Xach: doby162: capi is what people use when they make Common Lisp guis for commercial projects. 2016-05-25T14:10:23Z doby162: that's lispworks exclusive, right? 2016-05-25T14:10:31Z Xach: Yes. 2016-05-25T14:11:01Z eudoxia: doby162: are you looking to build a GUI inside an OpenGL context (e.g. for a game's interface) or a more traditional desktop GUI? 2016-05-25T14:11:07Z free-store quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T14:11:29Z eudoxia: for the former, I don't know of any ready-made GUIs built on SDL. for the latter, CommonQt+qtools is the current state of the art 2016-05-25T14:11:56Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:12:19Z doby162: I am looking to have a more traditional interface with buttons that one clicks. I saw commonqt a bit, but the documentation scared me off a bit. 2016-05-25T14:12:24Z shdeng quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:12:42Z dlowe: gui programming is an underappreciated effort 2016-05-25T14:12:59Z dlowe: the only system that really made it easy was hypercard :p 2016-05-25T14:13:06Z doby162: was? 2016-05-25T14:13:16Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T14:13:32Z jackdaniel: doby162: if you need something for a simple gui look at ltk 2016-05-25T14:13:33Z eudoxia: try Qtools https://shinmera.github.io/qtools/ 2016-05-25T14:13:36Z jackdaniel: it's nice and dead-easy 2016-05-25T14:14:33Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:15:14Z [iM: doby162: don't implement your own in SDL, it's not trivial :-) 2016-05-25T14:15:28Z jackdaniel: doby162: http://www.peter-herth.de/ltk/ 2016-05-25T14:15:34Z jackdaniel: it's available on quicklisp 2016-05-25T14:17:13Z jerme left #lisp 2016-05-25T14:17:24Z doby162: I'll look into qtools and ltk! Thanks a bunch. And yeah, I'm making an itty bitty program for turning raspberry pis into single transferable vote-voting booths in a no-internet environment, so something easy and simple is probably best 2016-05-25T14:20:26Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:20:55Z NeverDie quit (Quit: http://radiux.io/) 2016-05-25T14:26:55Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:28:34Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:28:39Z omilu joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:30:34Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:34:09Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:38:12Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T14:39:00Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:41:25Z xue_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:41:44Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-25T14:42:01Z xue_ quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-25T14:44:32Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:44:41Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:44:55Z gilez is now known as Guest87563 2016-05-25T14:50:50Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:51:49Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T14:55:35Z smokeink quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T14:56:21Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T14:59:41Z xue_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:02:32Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:05:19Z varjag quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-05-25T15:06:42Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:08:23Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:09:18Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:09:38Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:10:12Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:10:42Z flamebeard_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:11:35Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:14:04Z flamebeard quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:17:58Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:18:07Z beach: Good afternoon everyone! 2016-05-25T15:18:17Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:18:18Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:19:00Z eudoxia: hello beach 2016-05-25T15:20:02Z beach: Hey eudoxia. How are things? 2016-05-25T15:20:30Z eudoxia: i'm fine 2016-05-25T15:20:46Z eudoxia: i saw you uploaded a paper on bootstrapping 2016-05-25T15:20:51Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:21:15Z moore33: beach: Hi beach 2016-05-25T15:21:20Z beach: eudoxia: You mean you saw the repository? 2016-05-25T15:21:26Z eudoxia: yes 2016-05-25T15:21:28Z jackdaniel: hello beach 2016-05-25T15:21:41Z beach: eudoxia: It is something that I have thought about for some time, and I continue thinking about it. 2016-05-25T15:22:27Z beach: Very, very, very, preliminary beginning of this paper: http://metamodular.com/bootstrapping-common-lisp.pdf 2016-05-25T15:22:44Z beach: Since it is still not clear in my mind, I am open to discussion. 2016-05-25T15:23:45Z beach: So, I am not taking detailed remarks at this point. Only general ideas. 2016-05-25T15:23:58Z eudoxia: right 2016-05-25T15:23:59Z beach: Lots of stuff might end up being entirely rewritten. 2016-05-25T15:24:09Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:25:08Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:26:14Z beach: I feel I have to figure this out, because the discussion comes up over and over again, and fairly quickly the adrenaline seems to take over the direction of the debate. 2016-05-25T15:26:41Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:26:45Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:30:47Z shka_ quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-25T15:31:05Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:32:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:32:41Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:33:15Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:34:01Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:34:54Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:36:10Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:37:42Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:37:48Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:39:12Z ramky_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:39:34Z pepton4 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:39:46Z ramky quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T15:41:13Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:41:37Z madalu joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:42:43Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:43:23Z HeyFlash quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:44:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:47:34Z phoe_krk: Allo. 2016-05-25T15:47:52Z watersoul joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:48:05Z phoe_krk: beach: oh look, there's the paper I was waiting for. Thanks! 2016-05-25T15:48:42Z phoe_krk: beach: what is CCL written in? 2016-05-25T15:48:58Z flamebeard_ is now known as flamebeard 2016-05-25T15:49:07Z beach: Again, very, very PRELIMINARY BEGINNING of a paper. 2016-05-25T15:49:59Z beach: phoe_krk: See the fourth paragraph of section 2.1. 2016-05-25T15:50:05Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:50:31Z beach: Xof says that CCL is one of the systems that use image-based techniques. 2016-05-25T15:51:41Z beach: phoe_krk: I suggest you read his paper. It is published (so finished) and very well written. 2016-05-25T15:52:21Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:52:28Z shka_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:53:07Z phoe_krk: I see. 2016-05-25T15:53:17Z schjetne: where can I find that paper? 2016-05-25T15:53:22Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:53:31Z beach: schjetne: Hold on... 2016-05-25T15:53:50Z beach: http://www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/papers/s32008/sbcl.pdf 2016-05-25T15:54:10Z schjetne: beach: thanks 2016-05-25T15:54:15Z beach: Anytime! 2016-05-25T15:54:32Z rme: CCL compiles, then loads, a restricted set of target fasl files into lisp data structures. This is then written out as a limited functionality bootstrapping image. This bootstrapping image is then started, and it loads the rest of the (possibly cross-compiled) target fasl files that implement the rest of the lisp. At this point, a "real" image can be saved. 2016-05-25T15:54:39Z rme: I should write it up some day. 2016-05-25T15:54:40Z schjetne: This is interesting stuff, I'll definitely take a compiler course when I get the opportunity. 2016-05-25T15:54:44Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:54:49Z beach: rme: Please do! 2016-05-25T15:54:54Z beach: It would be a very interesting read. 2016-05-25T15:55:28Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T15:56:08Z phoe_krk: rme: this doesn't sound like a really terrible thing. 2016-05-25T15:56:25Z phoe_krk: I saw that CCL has its compiler written mostly in Lisp. 2016-05-25T15:56:42Z beach: phoe_krk: That's the only sane way of writing a Common Lisp compiler. 2016-05-25T15:56:55Z phoe_krk: How hard would it be to compile the bootstrapping image with another Common Lisp implementation? 2016-05-25T15:57:09Z moore33: beach: I would have thought that most Lisps use image-based techniques, but I suppose it depends on what exactly that means. 2016-05-25T15:57:20Z schjetne: Just about everything I know about compilers I know from when I was shanghaied as a thesis opponent on obfuscation of LLVM IR and had to learn everything from scratch over breakfast 2016-05-25T15:57:36Z phoe_krk: Like - they can have their images. But can we generate these images from portable Common Lisp? 2016-05-25T15:57:45Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T15:57:47Z beach: moore33: See the summary of Xof's paper in mine, or read his. Image-based techniques seem to dominate in the commercial Common Lisp implementations. 2016-05-25T15:58:01Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: only sbcl does that for now afaik 2016-05-25T15:58:11Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: how hard would it be to duplicate this on CCL? 2016-05-25T15:58:12Z moore33: beach: Also, it depends on how you're counting :) 2016-05-25T15:58:19Z rme: It would be a lot of work to make CCL buildable with some other Common Lisp. 2016-05-25T15:58:32Z phoe_krk: rme: what's the first obstacle that comes to your mind? 2016-05-25T16:01:09Z eudoxia: presumably the compiler uses CCL internals 2016-05-25T16:01:56Z rme: Low-level interface to the run-time system (e.g., locks, threads); some special operators to access foreign memory directly. 2016-05-25T16:02:18Z DGASAU quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T16:02:33Z moore33: phoe_krk: If you read Xof's paper, you'll get an idea of the tasks involved, even though it is about SBCL. CMUCL used lots of hacks to make access to non-lisp memory fast. 2016-05-25T16:02:35Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:02:52Z moore33: Also, didn't William Newman write a paper about it? 2016-05-25T16:02:54Z DGASAU joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:03:03Z Xof: I'm not sure he ever did 2016-05-25T16:03:22Z Bourne quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:04:05Z Xof: but the key difference is whether the existing compiler uses informtion about the existing runtime to write out code for the new runtime 2016-05-25T16:04:30Z Xof: the example that I used when people didn't get it back when CMUCL was more popular was to say "go on, re-order the slots in defstruct-description. I'll wait" 2016-05-25T16:04:51Z moore33: Heh. 2016-05-25T16:04:56Z Xof: (because CMUCL used the existing defstruct-description structure to work out layouts of new structures) 2016-05-25T16:05:15Z Xof: My guess is there's some similar twisty thing in CCL, because every so often Gary warns everyone not to build anything because of bootstrapping issues 2016-05-25T16:05:34Z moore33: Xof: I explored similar ground when I did the linkage table work for CMUCL. 2016-05-25T16:06:15Z Xof: right, there's almost certainly more than one place :-) 2016-05-25T16:07:08Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:10:53Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:11:46Z IPmonger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T16:12:03Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:12:30Z doby162: So do lisp coders actually buy the language very often? That seems really weird to me. I've never used tools that aren't open source 2016-05-25T16:13:22Z beach: doby162: In an industrial setting there is more a tendency to buy commercial, mainly to get the maintenance contract. 2016-05-25T16:13:40Z beach: ... i.e., more so than for individual hackers. 2016-05-25T16:14:54Z doby162: is that more common than I realized in general, or more of a lisp thing? Only commercial language that I've heard of being used is cold fusion, and the guy who does that wants to switch to python or php 2016-05-25T16:15:28Z jackdaniel: doby162: you pay for commercial IDE often, like a Visual Studio 2016-05-25T16:15:28Z eudoxia: the language is not commercial, LispWorks and Franz sell implementations with tightly integrated IDEs and some extras 2016-05-25T16:15:43Z jackdaniel: also you pay for their effort to keep things working 2016-05-25T16:15:46Z eudoxia: for instance, Franz sells some kind of graph database that's integrated with Allegro CL 2016-05-25T16:17:25Z doby162: Fair enough. I guess that's worth something on the right scale 2016-05-25T16:18:24Z beach: doby162: I am not keeping up with industry so much these days. But when I give talks in industry, I basically claim that a project leader who bases a product on an implementation controlled by a benevolant dictator, or by a group of individuals financed by academic grants, should be fired. 2016-05-25T16:19:47Z beach: doby162: Same thing if they use a language without an independent (from the organization delivering the implementation) standard. 2016-05-25T16:19:50Z jackdaniel: beach: what do you mean by "benevolant dictator"? 2016-05-25T16:19:58Z doby162: Hahaha, worth a lot then! 2016-05-25T16:20:15Z beach: jackdaniel: Isn't that what they call themselves? 2016-05-25T16:20:34Z doby162: A benevolent dictator is a maintainer who is totally in charge, correct? 2016-05-25T16:20:41Z jackdaniel: ah 2016-05-25T16:21:07Z beach: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life 2016-05-25T16:21:18Z beach: jackdaniel: For you ↑ 2016-05-25T16:21:23Z jackdaniel: thanks 2016-05-25T16:22:03Z jackdaniel: leeching on FOSS by big companies is a very common practice 2016-05-25T16:22:37Z doby162: How does one leech of FOSS? 2016-05-25T16:22:38Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:22:49Z beach: jackdaniel: Sure, that could be done. If, in their risk analysis, take into account the fact that they may have to rewrite the code or hire compiler experts to replace the ones that disappear. 2016-05-25T16:22:56Z beach: I have yet to see such a risk analysis though. 2016-05-25T16:23:06Z gingerale joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:23:16Z beach: But don't get me started on the level of competence of project leaders in industry. 2016-05-25T16:23:17Z jackdaniel: doby162: you take dozen open source projects, push the blocks, build a product and charge money 2016-05-25T16:23:37Z jackdaniel: right 2016-05-25T16:23:45Z doby162: Oh. Yeah that doesn't seem nice 2016-05-25T16:24:14Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:24:19Z schjetne: Bonus points if you can live on free contributions made under a contributor license agreement giving you all the rights 2016-05-25T16:24:33Z schjetne: gratis, I should say 2016-05-25T16:26:59Z eudoxia quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T16:27:05Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-25T16:29:06Z EvW quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T16:29:17Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:29:42Z didi joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:30:01Z phoe_krk: jackdaniel: it's not leeching. 2016-05-25T16:30:14Z phoe_krk: as brutal as it sounds, they have the right to do it. 2016-05-25T16:30:48Z vydd_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:30:57Z phoe_krk: they can be "good" and push the patches and changes to the origin, they can be "bad" and hog it all to themselves - but the software creator explicitly allowed them to do so. 2016-05-25T16:31:24Z phoe_krk: That's why Stallman kicked off the GNU GPL. 2016-05-25T16:31:48Z beach: I think that discussion is off topic if you don't mind. Nothing good can come of it. 2016-05-25T16:31:55Z jackdaniel: how does it stay in condtradiction with calling the "bad guys" a leecher? 2016-05-25T16:31:57Z jackdaniel: right, sorry 2016-05-25T16:32:03Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:32:48Z phoe_krk resists the urge to write another chapter in the Open vs Free holy war. 2016-05-25T16:34:39Z dlowe: If you have a right to do something, that does not imply that to do it is praiseworthy. 2016-05-25T16:35:41Z phoe_krk: Unpraiseworthiness doesn't imply you should call someone names. 2016-05-25T16:35:43Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:35:48Z jackdaniel: #lispcafe 2016-05-25T16:37:39Z didi: How do I avoid lisp chocking at compiling functions that use macros that eval to functions of the same file? I have a single file full of variables, functions and macros. I have a macro that evals to a form that has a function A of this file on it. If I use this macro on a function B of this same file, lisp complains that function A is not defined. 2016-05-25T16:38:12Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T16:39:11Z beach: didi: Do you mean that your macros EXPAND (as opposed to EVAL) to functions? 2016-05-25T16:39:19Z didi: beach: Right. 2016-05-25T16:39:26Z beach: didi: And do you mean that your macros expand to CALLS or to DEFINITIONS of those functions? 2016-05-25T16:39:28Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:39:29Z ramky__ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:39:36Z didi: beach: Calls. 2016-05-25T16:39:57Z phoe_krk: didi: sounds like a case where EVAL-WHEN might be useful. 2016-05-25T16:40:07Z didi: phoe_krk: Hum... 2016-05-25T16:40:20Z moore33: What phoe_krk said. 2016-05-25T16:40:21Z beach: didi: And what does it mean to "use this macro on a function B"? 2016-05-25T16:40:31Z phoe_krk: But then again - give me a very small example, because this might be actually solvable without an EVAL-WHEN. 2016-05-25T16:40:51Z didi: Let me try to write something. Give me a little time. 2016-05-25T16:40:55Z phoe_krk: Okay. 2016-05-25T16:41:10Z beach: OK, you guys seem to know what the problem is, so I'll be quiet. I couldn't understand the description of it. 2016-05-25T16:42:54Z ramky_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:44:50Z nubileuno joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:47:06Z didi: Here: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/4e9113d7 2016-05-25T16:47:29Z DeadTrickster: dim, thanks for the link! 2016-05-25T16:49:21Z moore33 quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-25T16:49:24Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:51:03Z beach: didi: You call A at macro-expansion time rather than at runtime. Is that intended? 2016-05-25T16:51:18Z didi: beach: It is. 2016-05-25T16:51:26Z beach: didi: If so, you indeed need to make sure that A is defined when the file is compiled. 2016-05-25T16:51:37Z beach: Normally it is not defined until the FASL is loaded. 2016-05-25T16:51:40Z didi: A is like a helper function. 2016-05-25T16:52:01Z beach: Then you need to wrap the definition of A in EVAL-WHEN as phoe_krk and moore33 said. 2016-05-25T16:52:10Z didi: oic 2016-05-25T16:52:13Z didi: Thank you. 2016-05-25T16:52:18Z beach: Anytime. 2016-05-25T16:52:27Z bogdanm quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T16:52:39Z zacharias quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:53:14Z beach: didi: Personally, I tend to put such helper functions in a separate component and make sure ASDF loads that component before compiling the main one. 2016-05-25T16:53:28Z phoe_krk: ^ 2016-05-25T16:53:32Z phoe_krk: This is a very good rule. 2016-05-25T16:53:33Z didi: Interesting... 2016-05-25T16:53:42Z phoe_krk: Basically - you start using Lisp to metaprogram Lisp. 2016-05-25T16:53:49Z Bike joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:53:52Z didi: I will try to rearrange my forms. Thanks. 2016-05-25T16:54:09Z beach: Good luck. Report back how it went. 2016-05-25T16:54:10Z phoe_krk: It's very good to separate this in stages; so the helper functions used to create and compile the lower stage are always available at the upper stage. 2016-05-25T16:54:23Z phoe_krk: Good luck - and write a blog post about your journey. 2016-05-25T16:54:33Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:54:47Z didi: Hehe. I am not very good at writing. I can do funny faces tho. 2016-05-25T16:55:00Z phoe_krk: didi: neither am I. 2016-05-25T16:55:29Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-25T16:55:46Z phoe_krk: But a short blogpost telling someone 1) what was the problem, 2) how it manifested itself, 3) what was the logical solution, 4) how that solution was implemented, 5) what was the final and expected result - that's not hard to write. 2016-05-25T16:56:00Z phoe_krk: But it's a godsend when someone looks for a similar problem online. 2016-05-25T16:56:08Z didi: True. 2016-05-25T16:56:14Z phoe_krk: And problems of EVAL-WHEN nature are notorious when people try Lispmetaprogramming. 2016-05-25T16:56:18Z phoe_krk: Initially, everything works. 2016-05-25T16:56:26Z phoe_krk: But then you restart your Lisp image and try to load the saved files... 2016-05-25T16:56:35Z phoe_krk: Boom. Stuff is loaded in wrong order and doesn't compile. 2016-05-25T16:56:38Z phoe_krk: This is *notorious*. 2016-05-25T16:56:46Z phoe_krk: I say that because I end up running into this stuff all the time myself. 2016-05-25T16:56:55Z didi: Cool, so I am not alone. :-) 2016-05-25T16:57:28Z didi: Off I go. 2016-05-25T16:57:30Z didi left #lisp 2016-05-25T16:57:31Z phoe_krk: See you! 2016-05-25T16:58:30Z dlowe: I prefer putting code in different files over using eval-when 2016-05-25T16:59:19Z phoe_krk: dlowe: then you let ASDF manage your load order instead of Lisp itself. 2016-05-25T16:59:22Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T16:59:31Z phoe_krk: Which isn't a bad thing at all. 2016-05-25T16:59:34Z dlowe: that's what it's for 2016-05-25T16:59:53Z phoe_krk: Ahuh, it's one of its goals. :) 2016-05-25T17:00:42Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:00:42Z d4ryus is now known as Guest89212 2016-05-25T17:00:42Z Guest89212 quit (Killed (asimov.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-25T17:00:42Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-25T17:03:36Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:05:52Z jtza8 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:06:03Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-25T17:08:37Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-25T17:09:52Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:11:06Z akkad: can drakma do a http request against an open stream? 2016-05-25T17:11:46Z Sparhawk joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:11:50Z moredhel joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:11:54Z Sparhawk left #lisp 2016-05-25T17:12:40Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:16:07Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:16:31Z akkad: e.g. (iolib:with-open-socket (client :address-family :local :remote-filename "/var/run/docker.sock") (drakma:http-request "http://containers/json" :stream client)) 2016-05-25T17:18:08Z DeadTrickster: akkad, yes but usually you want to use stream returned by drakma itself 2016-05-25T17:18:13Z DeadTrickster: :close nil 2016-05-25T17:18:52Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:19:07Z DeadTrickster: you can use your own stream if you cook it properly (e.g. wrap in flexi-streams, chunked stream etc etc, consult drakma sources for details) 2016-05-25T17:20:57Z akkad: ok thanks 2016-05-25T17:21:19Z akkad: make a http request on a unix domain socket 2016-05-25T17:22:47Z akkad: https://github.com/davazp/cl-docker/blob/master/request.lisp someone already wrote what I was doing. nice 2016-05-25T17:25:15Z ramky__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:26:51Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-25T17:27:36Z arbv quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T17:28:11Z rjnw joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:29:59Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-25T17:31:37Z Nuri left #lisp 2016-05-25T17:32:23Z xue_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:34:57Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:38:12Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-25T17:39:09Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T17:39:29Z Jesin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:40:00Z sswords quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:41:29Z sswords joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:43:14Z nell joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:45:33Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:51:07Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:51:30Z holly1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:51:33Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:53:37Z ggole quit 2016-05-25T17:54:31Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T17:54:33Z phoe_krk: Whence the name ManKai Common Lisp? 2016-05-25T17:55:13Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:56:43Z holly1 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:58:57Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T17:59:21Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T17:59:53Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:00:36Z schjetne: phoe_krk: I don't think I've heard about that one before 2016-05-25T18:01:09Z schjetne: Apparently Kyoto heritage, maybe it's something Japanese? 2016-05-25T18:01:26Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:02:13Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:06:53Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:07:31Z Bike: here. ManKai is the romanji spelling of a Japanese expression that translates into "Full Bloom". 2016-05-25T18:07:34Z Bike: It is a reference to the historical origins of the largest bulk of the code 2016-05-25T18:07:37Z Bike: in Kyoto, Japan where the cherry trees go into "Man Kai" every spring. 2016-05-25T18:07:40Z Bike: that didn't do what i expected it to, sorry. 2016-05-25T18:07:48Z Bike: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.lisp/cuQbgKmBwm0/3XdYNy_o8QoJ 2016-05-25T18:07:55Z phoe_krk: Bike: Thanks! Just what I needed. 2016-05-25T18:08:10Z xrash joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:08:24Z Bike: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%BA%80%E9%96%8B i guess. 2016-05-25T18:09:01Z phoe_krk: My initial guesses were right, but I wanted to double-check. 2016-05-25T18:10:28Z Bike: the author is also french, so i wouldn't put too much stock in it, except maybe in a japonisme way? :p 2016-05-25T18:10:34Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-25T18:12:03Z phoe_krk: baka desu senpaiiii~ (´・ω・`) 2016-05-25T18:12:05Z phoe_krk coughs 2016-05-25T18:12:15Z phoe_krk: But I got the idea. 2016-05-25T18:16:50Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:18:19Z phoe_krk: minion: memo for beach: ping 2016-05-25T18:18:19Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks. 2016-05-25T18:18:58Z sauvin quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T18:22:21Z madalu quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T18:30:49Z wildlander joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:31:15Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:34:41Z dilated_dinosaur quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:35:20Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:42:58Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-25T18:43:43Z Jesin quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T18:43:48Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:44:26Z puchacz joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:46:31Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:46:43Z vydd_ is now known as vydd 2016-05-25T18:47:25Z jsgrant: Is there a prebuilt Roswell binary I'm missing? I've moved over to NixOS recently and haven't had the time as of recent, to look into building a nixpkg expression for it yet. 2016-05-25T18:47:28Z dilated_dinosaur joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:47:43Z nell quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T18:48:03Z maucar quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T18:48:46Z jsgrant: Might just wait a week, and do the needed legwork. 2016-05-25T18:51:30Z przl joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:52:58Z illusionmedic joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:53:45Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-25T18:54:51Z przl quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T18:55:48Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T18:56:46Z opus quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-25T18:58:02Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T18:58:04Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:00:16Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T19:00:53Z jbakid quit (Quit: jbakid) 2016-05-25T19:02:29Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:08:04Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-25T19:08:56Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:08:59Z phoe_krk: ...Now I need anyone fluent with Japanese. I have a small tidbit I need translated. 2016-05-25T19:10:56Z zalatovo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T19:12:39Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:14:35Z jsgrant quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-25T19:15:03Z mordocai: jsgrant: There's an arch package that you could probably extract. 2016-05-25T19:15:14Z mordocai: awww, left already 2016-05-25T19:16:05Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:18:08Z prion_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T19:20:13Z asc232 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:20:35Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:23:57Z eschatologist quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T19:24:09Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: Is part of the code cleanup for McCLIM moving each ASDF system definition to its own file? mcclim-looks seems the system responsible for choosing the backend, part of the logic could be moved to method in order for it to be more clear. 2016-05-25T19:25:34Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I'm doing it at the very moment :) 2016-05-25T19:25:38Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/dkochmanski/McCLIM/commits/asd-cleanup 2016-05-25T19:27:46Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: nice, I'll check it when I get back 2016-05-25T19:28:10Z jackdaniel: sure, it's wip for now, I'm now grokking how the backends are set etc 2016-05-25T19:28:14Z jackdaniel: the thing you have asked 2016-05-25T19:28:40Z PuercoPop: btw doesn't putting asd files not in the TLD make ql's local-project not work out of the box? 2016-05-25T19:28:52Z jackdaniel: tld? 2016-05-25T19:28:58Z PuercoPop: top level directory 2016-05-25T19:29:18Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T19:29:25Z drmeister: Is there a more concise way to do the following? 2016-05-25T19:29:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/2IEYRdLE/ 2016-05-25T19:29:30Z jackdaniel: ah – well, I haven't encountered such error 2016-05-25T19:29:50Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: there is a problem, when you try to load a system, which name doesn't match the filename 2016-05-25T19:29:59Z drmeister: What I'm trying to achieve is I've got a file with the logical pathname: "sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;redeye.lisp" 2016-05-25T19:30:04Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:30:04Z PuercoPop: I was planning on checking out nq-clim and some other backends along with re-reading the Spec to see if I can make sense of what is needed to write a cl-cairo2 backend (and if it would improve the 'look' of McCLIM or not) 2016-05-25T19:30:15Z fourier` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:30:58Z drmeister: I want to generate a .fasl file under the "/tmp/..." directory that contains the entire physical pathname path of "sys:modules;clasp-analyzer;redeye.lisp" 2016-05-25T19:31:07Z jackdaniel: nq-clim? 2016-05-25T19:31:41Z drmeister: What the code snippet above does is return #P"/tmp/users/meister/development/clasp/src/modules/clasp-analyzer/redeye.fasl" 2016-05-25T19:32:16Z jackdaniel: ah, not quite the common lisp interface manager 2016-05-25T19:32:27Z jackdaniel: is it anyhow compatible with mcclim? 2016-05-25T19:32:38Z drmeister: The loss of capitalization is a bit ugly - the original physical pathname was: #P"/Users/meister/Development/clasp/src/modules/clasp-analyzer/redeye.fasl" 2016-05-25T19:32:50Z drmeister: This won't be a problem on OS X but it has caused me grief on Linux. 2016-05-25T19:34:00Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: https://github.com/abridgewater/nq-clim/ (a 'not quite' clim implementation nyef was writing a while back) 2016-05-25T19:34:15Z drmeister: It's so messy that I even screwed it up. 2016-05-25T19:34:20Z jackdaniel: I don't see any readme, why it's "not quite"? 2016-05-25T19:34:21Z drmeister: I'm looking for a cleaner version of this: 2016-05-25T19:34:22Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/tRFUvHfY/ 2016-05-25T19:34:47Z drmeister: I think I'm over/mis-using TRANSLATE-LOGICAL-PATHNAME 2016-05-25T19:35:11Z jackdaniel: I was about to ask why you put the translate-logical-pathname 2016-05-25T19:35:23Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:39:50Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:40:35Z kushal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T19:44:45Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:46:09Z SamF joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:49:52Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-25T19:49:55Z rjnw quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-25T19:50:09Z am55 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T19:51:15Z knobo1 quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.3) 2016-05-25T19:53:28Z pbgc quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2016-05-25T19:54:33Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T19:54:45Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T19:56:33Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:01:02Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:07:47Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:07:47Z Bourne quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T20:08:44Z gravicappa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:09:59Z drmeister: Got called away. jackdaniel - to avoid the use of logical pathnames. I convert them to physical pathnames as soon as possible. 2016-05-25T20:10:23Z pbgc joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:10:27Z nubileuno quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T20:10:40Z jackdaniel: then why do you use them in a first place? 2016-05-25T20:11:04Z jackdaniel: just set *some-meaningful-base-pathname-name* and use it as a :default-pathname 2016-05-25T20:11:33Z jackdaniel: I find using them extra-convenient, but if you want to avoid sing these… 2016-05-25T20:11:42Z jackdaniel: s/sing/using/ 2016-05-25T20:11:46Z drmeister: Because I find hostnames a very convenient way to get to directories within the clasp directory hierarchy. 2016-05-25T20:11:58Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:12:02Z jackdaniel: right 2016-05-25T20:12:27Z Blukunfando joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:12:30Z drmeister: #P"sys:modules;clang-tool;clang-tool.lisp" gets me to the clang-tool.lisp file wherever the clasp directory hierarchy is located on the filesystem. 2016-05-25T20:13:13Z pbgc quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-25T20:13:59Z Bourne joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:14:07Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what I mean that they are extra-convenient 2016-05-25T20:14:12Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:15:30Z drmeister: Oh - sorry, I read 'extra-convenient' as 'inconvenient' 2016-05-25T20:17:25Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:18:03Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:19:00Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:23:16Z gingerale quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T20:23:59Z drmeister: Thank you - pathnames are something I'm still getting comfortable with - if there isn't a better way - that's good to know. 2016-05-25T20:25:22Z eazar001 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T20:26:54Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:27:19Z puchacz quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2016-05-25T20:27:44Z shka_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:28:36Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:33:59Z prxq joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:35:36Z fortitude joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:35:39Z eazar001 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T20:41:20Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:46:25Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-05-25T20:47:42Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:49:21Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-25T20:49:32Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:52:15Z doby162 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T20:55:51Z sweater_ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:57:17Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T20:57:36Z Cymew quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:58:03Z jsgrant quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T20:58:21Z drmeister: Have any Qt users read about this? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11769626 2016-05-25T21:02:00Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:03:43Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:07:46Z angavrilov quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T21:08:50Z SamF quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T21:09:18Z shka quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:16:26Z sweater- joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:18:33Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:18:57Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:19:57Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T21:20:21Z sweater_ quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:21:40Z prxq quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T21:22:47Z Guest87563 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:22:49Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T21:29:25Z Posterdati quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T21:30:17Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:30:44Z Posterdati joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:33:38Z vlatkoB_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T21:38:26Z ACE_Recliner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:38:27Z msb quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:38:36Z detergnet joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:48:16Z LiamH quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-25T21:50:48Z Baggers joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:52:29Z fe[nl]ix: drmeister: "a header-only library" ... "it uses macros" 2016-05-25T21:52:33Z fe[nl]ix: not very useful IMO 2016-05-25T21:53:27Z fe[nl]ix: a useful thing would be for the Qt guys to generate an FFI description file during compilation, for the given ABI 2016-05-25T21:53:45Z fe[nl]ix: something like json or even xml could be parsed and turned into Lisp code easily 2016-05-25T21:54:24Z fe[nl]ix: also, "CopperSpice is a fork of Qt 4" 2016-05-25T21:54:35Z drmeister: Clasp can do that already - it's the moc compiler that causes grief because the Qt source code isn't C++. It needs to be preprocessed by the moc preprocessor. 2016-05-25T21:54:36Z fe[nl]ix: especially Qt 4 is deprecated now 2016-05-25T21:54:40Z drmeister: Have you built with Qt? 2016-05-25T21:54:50Z fe[nl]ix: yes, it's pretty easy, with makefiles 2016-05-25T21:55:04Z drmeister: Does it generate C++ header files and store them somewhere? 2016-05-25T21:55:05Z fe[nl]ix: you run moc and get C++ files 2016-05-25T21:55:15Z fe[nl]ix: yes, inside the source tree 2016-05-25T21:55:52Z drmeister: My two hours or so playing with it didn't get me there. It started me off in some graphical user interface - bleh. 2016-05-25T21:55:53Z fe[nl]ix: moc foo.cpp creates foo.moc.cpp, which gets compiled 2016-05-25T21:56:13Z fe[nl]ix: Qt5 is the thing now 2016-05-25T21:56:27Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:56:28Z fe[nl]ix: and is probably the most featureful portable UI kit 2016-05-25T21:57:03Z fe[nl]ix: for ease of use I'd go with https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/4k6x5h/libui_crossplatform_gui_library_in_c/ 2016-05-25T21:57:16Z fe[nl]ix: of course, I haven't used it so what do I know 2016-05-25T21:57:26Z fe[nl]ix: it looks easy to use 2016-05-25T21:58:01Z drmeister: I understand. I'm not interested in Qt 4 or CopperSpice. It's Verdigris that interested me - they are Qt compatible so they stay up to date with Qt. 2016-05-25T21:58:22Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T21:58:57Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T21:59:50Z fe[nl]ix: sure, it looks efficient, and the constexpr tricks can be done in Lisp with macros 2016-05-25T21:59:55Z fe[nl]ix: but it's still a lot of work 2016-05-25T22:00:04Z phoe_krk: Attempting to build WCL is giving me the creeps. 2016-05-25T22:00:21Z fe[nl]ix: what's that ? 2016-05-25T22:00:32Z phoe_krk: Like, I open the source, it's a mess of binary files, broken builds and A. C. Doyle stories. 2016-05-25T22:00:36Z phoe_krk: W a t . 2016-05-25T22:00:44Z Bike: lisp implementation built on top of an ancient indian burial ground 2016-05-25T22:00:56Z phoe_krk: yes 2016-05-25T22:01:03Z fourier` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:02:38Z adolf_stalin quit (Quit: Leaving...) 2016-05-25T22:02:48Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:02:48Z sweater- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T22:03:04Z sweater- joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:03:18Z jtza8 joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:04:20Z jtza8 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T22:05:58Z Baggers quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.4.1) 2016-05-25T22:06:32Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:07:21Z unbalancedparen quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-25T22:08:15Z bigfondue quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 2016-05-25T22:08:59Z bigfondue joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:09:01Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:09:21Z nowhereman quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:11:51Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:12:16Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:13:25Z detergnet quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:13:50Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:14:45Z msb joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:15:14Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:16:40Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:18:01Z drmeister: They moved the parentheses but they didn't move the lambdas! 2016-05-25T22:18:21Z drmeister: They didn't move the lambdas!!! 2016-05-25T22:19:08Z drmeister: (Poltergeist reference) 2016-05-25T22:19:20Z drmeister slinks off in shame. 2016-05-25T22:19:28Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:21:01Z Wizek__ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:22:48Z Xal joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:24:27Z Wizek quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:26:48Z ACE_Recliner joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:26:52Z phoe_krk: )lambda( 2016-05-25T22:27:07Z dwchandler: motel door opens, computer monitor shoved out, door closes 2016-05-25T22:28:35Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:29:33Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:31:19Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:32:42Z Nuri joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:34:36Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:35:21Z pavelpenev quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:35:40Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:35:43Z dyelar quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-25T22:37:03Z sjl quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:37:34Z steelbird quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 2016-05-25T22:38:19Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:38:41Z steelbird joined #lisp 2016-05-25T22:39:34Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:40:02Z al-damiri quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-25T22:43:20Z wildlander quit (Quit: Saliendo) 2016-05-25T22:44:06Z Wizek__ quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:49:31Z drmeister: Haw 2016-05-25T22:54:40Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-25T22:57:14Z phoe_krk: Good night! 2016-05-25T22:58:55Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:00:24Z Posterdati: hi 2016-05-25T23:01:41Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:03:00Z Nuri quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:03:04Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:03:21Z vydd quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T23:03:29Z fortitude quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-25T23:03:43Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:05:06Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:05:21Z pavelpenev joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:05:50Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: because it didn't attempt to implement the whole of the CLIM Spec 2016-05-25T23:07:25Z Blkt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T23:07:26Z fe[nl]ix quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T23:08:42Z Blkt joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:08:52Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-25T23:09:05Z fe[nl]ix joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:09:52Z fourier` quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:11:16Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:13:02Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:20:59Z ivan4th quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:21:06Z ivan4th joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:21:59Z Denommus` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-25T23:22:23Z Denommus` joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:22:30Z rgrau quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T23:29:47Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:37:10Z ircbrows- quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:37:32Z yulung joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:38:15Z lpaste quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:39:10Z sjl__ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-25T23:41:04Z lpaste joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:41:34Z ircbrowse joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:41:54Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:42:11Z dreamaddict joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:43:02Z gabriel_laddel: has someone written a function that will take an object, and spit out a MAKE-INSTANCE form? 2016-05-25T23:44:06Z gabriel_laddel: nvm, done 2016-05-25T23:44:10Z White_Flame: that would be a little tough, as the parameters aren't guaranteed to be just passthrough storage into the slots 2016-05-25T23:44:56Z gabriel_laddel: White_Flame: wait, what? 2016-05-25T23:45:15Z gabriel_laddel: asked b/c figured I'd missed an edge case... 2016-05-25T23:45:37Z White_Flame: accessors, intiialize-instance, etc, can do whatever they want to the object 2016-05-25T23:45:58Z White_Flame: if you just copy the current slot values into make-instance form parameters, that won't necessarily end up with an object of the same slot values 2016-05-25T23:46:12Z gabriel_laddel: right. 2016-05-25T23:46:15Z White_Flame: but yeah, in the simple naive case it should work fine 2016-05-25T23:46:59Z White_Flame: but people tend to be reluctant to upload utility functions that only cover the simple case 2016-05-25T23:47:29Z gabriel_laddel: I was sort of hoping someone would point me to a lib which would have a *global-print-readably*... 2016-05-25T23:47:45Z gabriel_laddel: IE, one that works on ALL objects handling circular refs etc 2016-05-25T23:47:47Z White_Flame: you'd probably have reasonable luck looking into serialization libs 2016-05-25T23:47:58Z White_Flame: and see if they use a textual intermediate form 2016-05-25T23:48:08Z gabriel_laddel: actually now that you mention it 2016-05-25T23:48:16Z White_Flame: s/textual/readable 2016-05-25T23:48:18Z gabriel_laddel: rucksack has an S-EXPRESSION store 2016-05-25T23:48:33Z bikeshedr quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-25T23:48:36Z White_Flame: there you go :) 2016-05-25T23:48:40Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:49:18Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:53:17Z reb`: gabriel_laddel: See define-print-object in https://github.com/brown/base/blob/master/syntax.lisp 2016-05-25T23:56:55Z _sjs joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:59:48Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-25T23:59:54Z varjag quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:01:16Z gabriel_laddel: reb`: o spiffy ty 2016-05-26T00:01:39Z zRecursive quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:02:07Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:04:22Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:04:23Z walter|r_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:11:32Z dreamaddict: how do I find out what reader macros have been assigned (so that I can try one of my own)? 2016-05-26T00:12:05Z gabriel_laddel: dreamaddict: *readtable* 2016-05-26T00:12:07Z gabriel_laddel: inspect it 2016-05-26T00:12:39Z dreamaddict: awesome 2016-05-26T00:12:51Z dreamaddict: it looks a bit arcane but I'll just do some research, thank you! 2016-05-26T00:13:08Z gabriel_laddel: you might want to install named-readtables 2016-05-26T00:13:13Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:13:28Z gabriel_laddel: I inspected my own *readtable*, looked pretty straightforwards, but idk what modifications NAMED-READTABLE makes 2016-05-26T00:13:30Z gabriel_laddel: (I'm using it) 2016-05-26T00:13:33Z gabriel_laddel: it is nice. 2016-05-26T00:14:57Z Bike: i don't think it does anything to readtables themselves, though it uses some internal readers 2016-05-26T00:19:35Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-26T00:20:21Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:22:16Z impulse quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T00:22:21Z gabriel_laddel quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 2016-05-26T00:23:09Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T00:24:36Z kushal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:26:07Z sjl__ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:26:14Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:27:48Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:27:56Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:29:30Z yulung quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:29:55Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:31:24Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:32:44Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:32:48Z nzambe quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T00:33:59Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:35:41Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:37:39Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:41:26Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: I've left a couple comments in your branch. Btw opening a PR would allow to keep better track of comments (although it is still hard to collaborate on a PR level, the collaboration story of GH is still inferior to mailing lists imho) 2016-05-26T00:42:44Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:43:39Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T00:44:18Z shdeng joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:44:30Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:44:57Z nzambe quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T00:46:11Z PuercoPop: Btw in the Spec I found an annotation referring the Silica Window System, does anyone know what is the relation of Silica to CLIM? 2016-05-26T00:46:42Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:48:27Z nzambe quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T00:49:01Z eschatologist: PuercoPop: Silica is a name for the lower-level substrate of CLIM. 2016-05-26T00:49:06Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:50:47Z lnostdal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T00:51:19Z nzambe quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T00:53:52Z guicho quit (Quit: さようなら) 2016-05-26T00:53:57Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-26T00:54:50Z nzambe quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T00:55:00Z Raggs left #lisp 2016-05-26T00:59:56Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T01:00:41Z edgar-rft joined #lisp 2016-05-26T01:10:07Z PuercoPop: eschatologist: I thought it was a commercial offering from the 90's (From what I remember from reading the Object Oriented programming, the CLOS perspective) 2016-05-26T01:11:12Z eschatologist: Here, have a link: http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log/040916.html 2016-05-26T01:13:29Z PuercoPop: eschatologist: thanks! 2016-05-26T01:16:07Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T01:18:03Z dreamaddict quit (Quit: Page closed) 2016-05-26T01:20:45Z adolf_stalin quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T01:27:52Z happy-dude quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-26T01:29:05Z papachan` quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T01:29:06Z sweater- quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 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#lisp 2016-05-26T02:14:46Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:18:17Z yoonkn joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:27:21Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:29:11Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:30:39Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T02:30:56Z loke: Good morning Lisp! 2016-05-26T02:31:19Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:32:06Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T02:32:22Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:34:28Z Opodeldoc joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:34:55Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:34:55Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-26T02:34:55Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:36:49Z jleija joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:38:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T02:38:47Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:39:14Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:39:50Z jsgrant joined #lisp 2016-05-26T02:39:52Z Valheru quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T02:40:02Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 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is 2016-05-26T03:43:41Z Bike: does it just have the usual autocomplete? 2016-05-26T03:44:00Z dreamaddict: the usual? 2016-05-26T03:44:05Z loke: dreamaddict: Well, there are two ways to fix that 2016-05-26T03:44:12Z dreamaddict: nope, it has none (the file buffer) 2016-05-26T03:44:17Z sepi` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T03:44:17Z Bike: i mean, you're using M-Tab, right 2016-05-26T03:44:22Z loke: dreamaddict: First is to use the function slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol directly. 2016-05-26T03:44:32Z loke: You can bind that to whatever you like. 2016-05-26T03:44:35Z eschatologist quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-05-26T03:44:37Z dreamaddict: M-Tab? you mean, (on my keyboard) Alt-Tab? 2016-05-26T03:44:45Z loke: If you want the plain TAB completion to use fuzzy instead, that can be done too: 2016-05-26T03:44:50Z Bike: yes. or escape then tab. 2016-05-26T03:45:07Z loke: Just do this: 2016-05-26T03:45:07Z loke: (setq slime-complete-symbol-function 'slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol) 2016-05-26T03:45:24Z dreamaddict: because Ubuntu has Alt-Tab assigned to some kind of task switcheroony thing, and I am not sure how I would wrest control of Alt-Tab from that monster 2016-05-26T03:45:29Z gko_ quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T03:45:32Z Bike: yeah. just type escape and then tab. 2016-05-26T03:45:42Z loke: Or, just listen to my TWO suggestions. 2016-05-26T03:45:49Z loke: They both work, but whatever. 2016-05-26T03:46:03Z adolf_stalin quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T03:46:17Z Bike: tab does indentation in a file buffer, yeah? 2016-05-26T03:46:26Z Davidbrcz quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T03:46:35Z loke: Bike: Yes, or expansion if there is no need to indent 2016-05-26T03:46:51Z loke: Damn, you need this too: 2016-05-26T03:46:51Z loke: (setq slime-complete-symbol*-fancy t) 2016-05-26T03:46:51Z mfsa joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:46:59Z sepi` joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:47:32Z dreamaddict: ok both of those things are in my .emacs file 2016-05-26T03:47:41Z dreamaddict: both of the setqs 2016-05-26T03:49:01Z loke: dreamaddict: What's your value of tab-always-indent? 2016-05-26T03:49:14Z loke: dreamaddict: If you want plain TAB to do complete, you need to set it to 'complete 2016-05-26T03:49:22Z loke: (setq tab-always-indent 'complete) 2016-05-26T03:49:33Z loke: You might want to make it buffer-local in Lisp buffers only, but that's up to you. 2016-05-26T03:49:57Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T03:50:05Z dreamaddict: I tried that loke, just as you typed it, and it still does not work in a file buffer 2016-05-26T03:50:07Z vlatkoB joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:50:20Z gko joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:50:32Z dreamaddict: ESC TAB does work 2016-05-26T03:50:35Z schoppenhauer quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T03:51:10Z Davidbrcz joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:51:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:52:06Z schoppenhauer joined #lisp 2016-05-26T03:52:26Z dreamaddict: then I suppose one might add something to Lisp mode that processed TAB as ESC TAB inside of the buffer 2016-05-26T03:52:38Z dreamaddict: that smells hacky though 2016-05-26T03:53:04Z Bike: well, loke's is apparently The Right Way To Do It, so just figure that out 2016-05-26T03:56:22Z loke: dreamaddict: Well, the easiest solution is just to map slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol to a keypress. 2016-05-26T03:56:27Z loke: I use Control-TAB 2016-05-26T03:56:32Z loke: That always works 2016-05-26T03:56:59Z kushal quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T03:57:24Z dreamaddict: right, that is where my reading is at right now, because I know nothing about Emacs 2016-05-26T04:03:43Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:06:00Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: thanks for the peer review! :) 2016-05-26T04:07:34Z jleija quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-26T04:09:18Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T04:09:57Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:12:29Z drmeister: Hi loke - I saw the problem you ran into building clasp - were you able to get past it? 2016-05-26T04:12:52Z loke: drmeister: Nope 2016-05-26T04:12:54Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:13:12Z drmeister: It's one that several people have experienced - it's due to a change that GCC made in the implementation of std::string and std::lisp that broke the C++ ABI. 2016-05-26T04:13:30Z loke: C++ ABI. Yeah, that's an oxymoron :-) 2016-05-26T04:14:06Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:14:08Z drmeister: All libraries on your system need to be compiled with the same value of the C-preprocessor define _GLIBCXX_USE_CXX11_ABI 2016-05-26T04:14:38Z drmeister: It's described here. 2016-05-26T04:14:39Z drmeister: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/using_dual_abi.html 2016-05-26T04:14:59Z loke: drmeister: all libraries? Well, that's something that is out of my control. 2016-05-26T04:15:32Z drmeister: Right - I don't get why it's happening on your system because Clasp defaults to whatever your system uses. 2016-05-26T04:15:46Z drmeister: You are running Arch Linux - right? 2016-05-26T04:16:04Z loke: drmeister: Well, I haven't updated my system in 16 days... 2016-05-26T04:16:08Z loke: drmeister: Yes 2016-05-26T04:17:17Z drmeister: Maybe it needs an update. We could diagnose the problem in terms of what library has what setting. 2016-05-26T04:17:17Z BlueRavenGT joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:17:44Z jbakid joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:18:15Z asc232 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T04:18:57Z drmeister: Things like std::__cxx11 and [abi:cxx11] in the missing symbols suggests that Clasp is being compiled with _GLIBCXX_USE_CXX11_ABI=1 and whatever it's linking to has the value 0. If those strings are absent from the name then it suggests the opposite. 2016-05-26T04:19:03Z drmeister: It's frustrating as heck. 2016-05-26T04:19:19Z drmeister: mood and Shinmera ran into the problems on their Arch systems but then the problem went away. 2016-05-26T04:19:36Z loke: drmeister: I'm trying to do an upate now 2016-05-26T04:19:42Z drmeister: Anyway, I just thought I'd tell you the best I know. 2016-05-26T04:20:39Z drmeister: If you know what library you are looking for - in your case it was an llvm library - you can search for the symbols using: nm .so | c++filt | grep 2016-05-26T04:21:11Z loke: drmeister: I thought the llvm libraries was used from externals-clasp? 2016-05-26T04:21:55Z drmeister: If you see things like std::__cxx11 and [abi:cxx11] in the names then you can get some idea of what was compiled with what value of _GLIBCXX_USE_CXX11_ABI 2016-05-26T04:22:12Z drmeister: Yeah - and neither externals-clasp nor clasp set the value of _GLIBCXX_USE_CXX11_ABI 2016-05-26T04:22:21Z drmeister: So it should default to what your system uses. 2016-05-26T04:22:40Z loke: so should I recompile everything, including externals-clasp after my system upgrade? 2016-05-26T04:22:55Z drmeister: Or zero - I'm still not exactly sure because this isn't an issue on OS X. 2016-05-26T04:23:02Z drmeister: I would do that. 2016-05-26T04:23:14Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:23:15Z drmeister: I would also poke around and see what it's trying to link to and what the symbols look like. 2016-05-26T04:24:50Z Petit_Dejeuner joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:24:52Z drmeister: You reported: /home/emartenson/src/clasp/src/main/include/generated/initFunctions_inc.h:1515: undefined reference to `llvm::Triple::normalize(llvm::StringRef)' 2016-05-26T04:25:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T04:25:26Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:25:42Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:25:55Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:26:09Z drmeister: This function returns a std::string - and so I think the llvm library that provides the symbol was compiled with _GLIBCXX_USE_CXX11_ABI=1 and so it's name contains std::__cxx11 or [abi:cxx11] and clasp is compiled with ...ABI=0 and so it's not finding it. 2016-05-26T04:26:25Z drmeister: Do you have another version of llvm on your system that clasp might be trying to link to? 2016-05-26T04:27:20Z payphone quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:27:53Z eschatologist is now known as eschaton 2016-05-26T04:28:03Z andrei-n quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:28:58Z loke: drmeister: Yes, I have the some othe rversion. 2016-05-26T04:29:08Z beach joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:29:09Z loke: lib32-llvm-libs 3.7.1-1 2016-05-26T04:29:10Z loke: llvm 3.7.1-1 2016-05-26T04:29:10Z loke: llvm-libs 3.7.1-1 2016-05-26T04:29:15Z beach: Good morning everyone! 2016-05-26T04:29:15Z minion: beach, memo from phoe_krk: ping 2016-05-26T04:29:16Z eschaton is now known as eschatologist 2016-05-26T04:29:18Z drmeister: That's probably what it's trying to link to and getting confused. 2016-05-26T04:29:23Z drmeister: Hi beach. 2016-05-26T04:29:40Z loke: drmeister: Is there a way to un-confuse it? 2016-05-26T04:30:23Z drmeister: I think temporarily you could: export LD_LIBRARY_PATH= 2016-05-26T04:30:34Z drmeister: Otherwise, remove the other llvm libraries. 2016-05-26T04:30:48Z mbuf joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:30:50Z jackdaniel: beach: hi 2016-05-26T04:31:09Z drmeister: It's going to find the right headers in externals-clasp but the linker is going to follow it's own rules to find the llvm libraries to link to. 2016-05-26T04:31:36Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:32:13Z loke: drmeister: Still waiting for the software update to finish. Internet at the office is not as good as at home :-) 2016-05-26T04:33:48Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:34:23Z Opodeldoc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T04:36:30Z s00pcan quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-05-26T04:36:49Z s00pcan joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:37:44Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:38:00Z drmeister: beach: How do I get things like Cleavir to generate SLOT-READ-AST nodes? 2016-05-26T04:41:54Z ACE_Recliner quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T04:42:30Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:42:35Z drmeister: That's garbled, allow me to reword that: 2016-05-26T04:42:49Z drmeister: How do I get Cleavir to generate things like SLOT-READ-AST nodes. 2016-05-26T04:43:28Z andrei-n joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:44:45Z drmeister: There is code for the AST node, and code to compile it to HIR - but there doesn't appear to be anything to generate SLOT-READ-AST nodes from forms. 2016-05-26T04:44:52Z beach: I see. 2016-05-26T04:44:54Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I've fixed all things you've catched, thanks! 2016-05-26T04:45:29Z beach: drmeister: The idea (as I recall, it is early in the morning) is that the MOP function for reading slots should use it. 2016-05-26T04:46:49Z beach: mop standard-instance-access 2016-05-26T04:46:49Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/standard-instance-access.html 2016-05-26T04:48:12Z beach: Then, standard-instance-access will be inlined as usual, of course. 2016-05-26T04:48:20Z eschatologist quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T04:48:41Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T04:48:49Z reepca quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T04:49:20Z beach: So once it has been determined that the instance is not obsolete, and the location of the slot has been determined, this instruction can be used. 2016-05-26T04:49:37Z drmeister: So should SLOT-READ-AST be generated by cleavir-primop:slot-read? And standard-instance-access invoke cleavir-primop:slot-read 2016-05-26T04:50:17Z beach: I take it you have checked that cleavir-primop:slot-read exists? If so, yes, that sounds plausible. 2016-05-26T04:51:07Z beach: It can also be used in slot accessors directly, provided the accessor is re-created when the slot changes location, as the SICL dispatch mechanism makes sure. 2016-05-26T04:52:23Z drmeister: Yes, it exists, but unlike (for instance) cleavir-primop:consp, there is no specialization for cleavir-primop:slot-read for the convert-special generic function. 2016-05-26T04:52:59Z beach: Probably because no code is currently using it, so it never failed. :) 2016-05-26T04:53:50Z drmeister: Understood. 2016-05-26T04:54:16Z beach: It sounds like everything is in place to do it. It should be easy to add such a method. 2016-05-26T04:55:04Z drmeister: Yes - I agree - but I wasn't sure if I misunderstood. 2016-05-26T04:55:15Z beach: By the way, do you know TAKAGI Masayuki? 2016-05-26T04:55:33Z drmeister: Nope. 2016-05-26T04:55:45Z beach: He is thinking of to use Cleavir to compile Common Lisp to JavaScript. 2016-05-26T04:56:01Z beach: So he has questions about how to configure the global environment and such. 2016-05-26T04:57:17Z drmeister: I'd be happy to help. 2016-05-26T04:57:22Z beach: OK, good. 2016-05-26T04:57:29Z beach: Thanks. 2016-05-26T04:57:42Z beach: I am not sure his situation is similar to yours, but it might be. We'll see. 2016-05-26T04:58:39Z drmeister: I see his github page. 2016-05-26T04:58:49Z drmeister: I'd like to talk with him. 2016-05-26T04:59:04Z beach: Oh, I should go look at it. 2016-05-26T04:59:22Z eschatologist joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:00:20Z beach: You can form a pressure^W user group for Cleavir :) 2016-05-26T05:01:36Z drmeister: We are a movement. 2016-05-26T05:04:01Z drmeister: I was talking with Didier at ELS about using Cleavir to generate specialized code for other applications. I started reading up on data flow analysis - it doesn't look too bad. I've written iterative Poisson Boltzmann solvers - an iterated algorithm for solving the electrostatic potential on a grid containing charges. I've also implemented ring finding 2016-05-26T05:04:01Z drmeister: algorithms that work by iterating over bidirectional graphs and sending messages along edges. 2016-05-26T05:06:12Z beach: Right, data flow analysis is not too hard, at least one it is unidirectional. 2016-05-26T05:06:20Z beach: s/one/when/ 2016-05-26T05:06:57Z beach: But as we discussed just before my leaving Cracow, it becomes hard in the presence of arbitrary control flow such as threads. 2016-05-26T05:06:58Z rme quit (Quit: rme) 2016-05-26T05:07:34Z gniourf quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:07:53Z drmeister: Right, but from your description it sounds like it becomes impossible in the presence of arbitrary control flow such as threads. 2016-05-26T05:07:54Z beach: The literature often assumes there are no nested functions. 2016-05-26T05:08:02Z beach: Yes, 2016-05-26T05:08:19Z beach: and complicated in the presence of local functions that are called in complex ways 2016-05-26T05:08:33Z beach: such as mutually recursive functions introduced with LABELS. 2016-05-26T05:08:57Z beach: But those cases are rare, so it is worthwhile handling the simpler cases well. 2016-05-26T05:09:02Z drmeister: But things like WebKit and Julia manage it - don't they? How do they do it? 2016-05-26T05:09:20Z sauvin joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:09:24Z beach: Are you sure they do things like type inference? 2016-05-26T05:09:33Z beach: or partial redundancy elimination? 2016-05-26T05:09:39Z beach: or path replication? 2016-05-26T05:09:47Z drmeister: I've been directed to learn about their type inference by people I trust. 2016-05-26T05:09:56Z drmeister: I don't know about that. 2016-05-26T05:10:24Z BlueRavenGT quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:10:29Z beach: If you don't do any complex optimizations in the case of nested mutually recursive functions, there is no need to do any precise data flow analysis. 2016-05-26T05:10:31Z drmeister: Maybe they are cutting corners somewhere. I'm going to have to learn a lot more I guess before I can evaluate them. 2016-05-26T05:11:26Z gniourf joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:11:32Z beach: And that is what I am suggesting, i.e., cutting corners. Handle the simple cases well to begin with. 2016-05-26T05:13:41Z beach: Handling the complex cases I think is a matter of how to represent the control flow. For the simple cases, we know how to do it (def-use chains, SSA). But SSA won't work for complex control flow. 2016-05-26T05:14:10Z beach: Maybe def-use chains will. 2016-05-26T05:14:47Z beach: Er, represent the DATA flow, not the control flow. 2016-05-26T05:15:39Z drmeister: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use-define_chain? 2016-05-26T05:16:21Z beach: Yes, that and the definition-use chain referred to. 2016-05-26T05:16:35Z beach: That stuff is in the book. 2016-05-26T05:19:43Z xmad quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:21:16Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T05:21:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:25:29Z beach: Time for a break. I'll be back in half an hour. 2016-05-26T05:26:22Z xmad joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:30:12Z Harag joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:35:30Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:35:55Z loke quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T05:36:18Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:38:30Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:43:27Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:44:14Z pobivan joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:44:54Z Harag quit (Quit: Harag) 2016-05-26T05:45:31Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T05:47:42Z drmeister: Ok, thanks. 2016-05-26T05:52:28Z sigjuice: I am reading PCL Chapter 25, Practical: An ID3 Parser. Is there a utility package that can print the whole tree represented an ID3 tag object? 2016-05-26T05:53:03Z Xal quit (Quit: bye) 2016-05-26T05:54:09Z MrWoohoo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T05:56:29Z drmeister: beach: When you get back... If I add code to generate AST nodes to Cleavir would you accept them as pull requests - or should I wait until you add the code? 2016-05-26T05:58:29Z akkad: sigjuice: inspect? 2016-05-26T05:59:11Z sigjuice: akkad: did you mean slime-inspect? 2016-05-26T06:02:17Z beach: drmeister: Thanks! Send it to me. I'll accept it. 2016-05-26T06:02:25Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:02:35Z beach: drmeister: Correct indentation, no additional blank lines. OK? 2016-05-26T06:02:58Z beach: I guess it doesn't matter. I'll check it and correct if necessary. 2016-05-26T06:03:08Z jackdaniel: beach: I've send you a detailed progress report and McCLIM's cleanup PR 2016-05-26T06:03:48Z beach: jackdaniel: Excellent! Got it! Thanks! 2016-05-26T06:04:15Z jackdaniel: great :) if you have any quick questions ask them here 2016-05-26T06:05:27Z sigjuice: akkad : Thanks. I figured out what inspect is. Looks like exactly what I needed. 2016-05-26T06:05:37Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't think I have any quick questions. 2016-05-26T06:05:53Z jackdaniel: right 2016-05-26T06:07:21Z drmeister: beach: I'll do my best to stick to Cleavir style. 2016-05-26T06:07:33Z drmeister: Rather - I'll stick to Cleavir style. 2016-05-26T06:09:03Z beach: Excellent! 2016-05-26T06:09:12Z akkad: sigjuice:np 2016-05-26T06:09:26Z drmeister: Alright - I'm off to sleep. Good night. 2016-05-26T06:09:34Z beach: 'night drmeister 2016-05-26T06:09:45Z jackdaniel: goodnight 2016-05-26T06:10:10Z beach: jackdaniel: That's excellent news that people are so excited about McCLIM. Again, I have a tendency to think that everyone interested hangs out here in #lisp, but that is definitely not the case. 2016-05-26T06:10:44Z jackdaniel: yes, that's true :) also, even if people are here, it's not that people talk about McCLIM all the time 2016-05-26T06:10:55Z beach: That's also true, yes. 2016-05-26T06:11:55Z beach: jackdaniel: Here I was thinking that the purpose of your work was mostly to improve the system, but in fact, the most impact of your work might be the additional excitement that it generates. 2016-05-26T06:12:27Z beach: Life is full of surprises. 2016-05-26T06:12:41Z jackdaniel: I think that both things are equally important, but yeah, it's cool it spawned some interest :) 2016-05-26T06:13:31Z beach: I didn't mean to say that the primary objective suddenly became unimportant. Just that there is this additional aspect I hadn't imagined. 2016-05-26T06:13:31Z jackdaniel: beach: is the form of the report and the intern notes clear enough? 2016-05-26T06:13:42Z beach: Yes, looks fine to me. 2016-05-26T06:14:00Z jackdaniel: great 2016-05-26T06:14:06Z beach: It will take me some time to read it. Especially since I will have dinner guests tonight and I have to prepare for that. 2016-05-26T06:14:28Z jackdaniel: sure, take your time, I have some material to improve the website a little 2016-05-26T06:14:34Z jackdaniel: also I want to generate new screenshots 2016-05-26T06:14:39Z jackdaniel: with truetype etc 2016-05-26T06:14:49Z jackdaniel: to replace the old ones 2016-05-26T06:14:52Z beach: Yes, good thinking. I meant to suggest that, and then forgot. 2016-05-26T06:19:22Z eschatologist: What's up with clozure.com? 2016-05-26T06:20:09Z eschatologist: Or maybe I'm just seeing a local reachability issue. Hmm. 2016-05-26T06:20:21Z Bike: doesn't work here either. 2016-05-26T06:20:24Z jackdaniel: same 2016-05-26T06:20:53Z flamebeard joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:23:59Z eschatologist: OK, so maybe not local. 2016-05-26T06:24:36Z jackdaniel: I've forwared the information to #ccl 2016-05-26T06:24:40Z eschatologist: Thanks 2016-05-26T06:24:47Z eschatologist: Forgot there was one. :) 2016-05-26T06:25:13Z jackdaniel: sure. most people (if not all) from there are idling here too probably 2016-05-26T06:25:48Z beach: jackdaniel: I don't see a problem with making READ-BITMAP-FILE generic. 2016-05-26T06:25:55Z beach: [started reading your questions] 2016-05-26T06:27:39Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:28:29Z beach: jackdaniel: Moving Goatee is fine. Be careful with ESA and Drei, because Drei is the basis of the input editor, so McCLIM can't work without it. 2016-05-26T06:28:34Z Cymew joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:28:53Z jackdaniel: beach: I've moved them locally, they are accessible from mcclim 2016-05-26T06:29:03Z beach: OK, no problem then. 2016-05-26T06:29:05Z jackdaniel: it's just a cosmetic improvement 2016-05-26T06:29:10Z beach: OK. 2016-05-26T06:29:26Z beach: If possible, I would like to keep input/output-stream-p generic. 2016-05-26T06:29:37Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-05-26T06:29:42Z harish_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T06:30:02Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:30:21Z beach: I am OK with a release, but let's have a period of testing first. I have some applications that exercise the code a bit. 2016-05-26T06:30:46Z beach: The graphic-forms backend can be removed. 2016-05-26T06:31:13Z beach: It is a Windows backend that depends on some other code (graphic forms) that is no longer viable as far as I can tell. 2016-05-26T06:31:25Z SamF joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:31:34Z jackdaniel: OK 2016-05-26T06:32:12Z beach: jackdaniel: I need to go unless you have anything quick to ask me at this point. 2016-05-26T06:32:59Z jackdaniel: no, except a question – could you note down which applications and how did you excercise code when you do that? 2016-05-26T06:33:16Z beach: I'll work on that today. 2016-05-26T06:33:27Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:33:30Z jackdaniel: thanks :) 2016-05-26T06:33:48Z beach: Idea before I leave: Since there is some excitement about this, I am thinking a fundraiser might be possible. Might be worth trying. 2016-05-26T06:34:30Z beach: I haven't thought about that before because I don't need the money myself and I wouldn't change my priorities even if I were given more money. :) 2016-05-26T06:35:08Z jackdaniel: heh, I have a similar idea regarding the ecl-android improvements (fundraiser) 2016-05-26T06:35:26Z beach: jackdaniel: I guess I am saying this: Suppose I start a fundraiser and that I actually get some money, would you then be interested in additional work? 2016-05-26T06:35:27Z jackdaniel: yeah, that may work, I'll think about it 2016-05-26T06:35:50Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:36:06Z jackdaniel: beach: yes 2016-05-26T06:36:16Z beach: OK, that's all I need to know for now. 2016-05-26T06:36:22Z SamF quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:36:29Z beach: I'm off. Time to get to work! 2016-05-26T06:36:31Z jackdaniel: something like ~20h/week probably 2016-05-26T06:36:32Z beach left #lisp 2016-05-26T06:36:38Z PuercoPop: btw there are some functions in utils.lisp like get-enviroment-variable or curry that could imported from uiop or alexandria 2016-05-26T06:36:48Z eschatologist: oh yeah, does modern McCLIM work with IPv6 and Unix-domain sockets? I tried to use McCLIM on my Mac via CLX a couple years back and it freaked out about the Unix socket used for connection to the local X server. 2016-05-26T06:36:56Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: thanks for the peer review! 2016-05-26T06:37:34Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: np, happy to help 2016-05-26T06:37:58Z jackdaniel: eschatologist: it's up to clx 2016-05-26T06:38:01Z PuercoPop: eschatologist: tthe problem is in CLX, rpg submited a PR that fixed it iirc but it hasn't been merged 2016-05-26T06:38:02Z jackdaniel: I think 2016-05-26T06:38:12Z eschatologist: ah, good to know, thanks 2016-05-26T06:38:15Z eschatologist: worst case I can find the PR :) 2016-05-26T06:38:47Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: I've addressed all your remarks and the cleanup is merged already 2016-05-26T06:38:54Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:38:55Z jackdaniel: in Robert's master 2016-05-26T06:39:24Z PuercoPop: eschatologist: this one https://github.com/sharplispers/clx/pull/21 2016-05-26T06:45:27Z Wizek__ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:48:03Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:50:43Z eschatologist: Not a big change once whitespace is ignored. :) 2016-05-26T06:51:17Z eazar001 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:53:00Z thecha joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:53:59Z Cymew: A small sidebar, I know what it means to submit a PR, but what does the PR actually stand for? 2016-05-26T06:54:09Z jackdaniel: pull request 2016-05-26T06:54:24Z Cymew: ah, I should have figured that out. thanks. 2016-05-26T06:54:27Z payphone joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:54:35Z thecha left #lisp 2016-05-26T06:54:40Z jackdaniel: well, I find it a bit misleading, because it looks to me more like a merge request 2016-05-26T06:54:45Z jackdaniel: but yeah, github uses this name 2016-05-26T06:54:49Z Cymew: Not just a bug report in general then. Good to know. 2016-05-26T06:55:24Z reepca joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:55:30Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T06:55:47Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:56:15Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T06:57:08Z PuercoPop: and there is git's request-pull to further the confusion 2016-05-26T06:57:09Z schjetne: jackdaniel: well, it's a request to pull from some other repo, and then merge. But the merge is the desired effect, the pull is just a techicality, so I agree with you on that. 2016-05-26T06:57:43Z Valheru joined #lisp 2016-05-26T06:59:05Z zRecursive joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:01:41Z eazar001 is now known as Mitzelflick 2016-05-26T07:01:49Z Mitzelflick is now known as eazar001 2016-05-26T07:02:17Z ramky joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:02:20Z Denommus` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T07:04:52Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:06:08Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:07:31Z gravicappa joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:08:04Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:08:17Z PlasmaStar quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:16:12Z PlasmaStar joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:25:05Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:28:22Z omilu quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:29:55Z vydd quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:29:58Z omilu joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:34:56Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T07:36:43Z shka joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:38:22Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:39:35Z MrWoohoo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:39:50Z norserob quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-26T07:46:16Z Guest1861 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:48:02Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-26T07:51:34Z stardiviner quit (Quit: Code, Sex, Just fucking world.) 2016-05-26T07:58:45Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:03:06Z DavidGuru quit (Quit: DavidGuru) 2016-05-26T08:03:50Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:05:09Z Guest1861 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:06:30Z varjag joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:07:15Z Valheru quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:09:34Z knobo1: Is it right to expect to receive the whole query in one read? https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/blob/master/src/ev/tcp.lisp#L89 2016-05-26T08:09:48Z knobo1: On OS X it does, but on linux i does not. 2016-05-26T08:10:16Z Guest38323 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:10:53Z phax joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:12:22Z igam: knobo1: congrats, you've found a bug. 2016-05-26T08:12:41Z knobo1: I don't know.. 2016-05-26T08:13:07Z knobo1: i know nothing i am from barcelona 2016-05-26T08:13:13Z igam quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T08:13:48Z phax quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T08:14:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:15:09Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:17:03Z narendraj9 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:17:18Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:23:16Z knobo1: igam: do you know how to fix the problem here? 2016-05-26T08:23:49Z eazar001 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T08:24:01Z pobivan quit (Quit: pobivan) 2016-05-26T08:24:39Z Bike quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-05-26T08:26:33Z igam: knobo1: it depends on what this read function does, how it's specified. But when you use the posix read (or write), you should always write it in a loop, checking for the result. If it's negative, you got an error. If it's less than the size expected (or written), then it's an incomplete read, and you need to continue reading (or writing). It definitely can be 0 too (eg. when a signal is received by the process before any byte is read 2016-05-26T08:26:33Z igam: (or written). 2016-05-26T08:27:06Z igam: knobo1: cl:read does this. But if you're using a thin wrapper over POSIX read, then you will have to write this loop yourself. 2016-05-26T08:27:21Z DavidGuru joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:32:53Z knobo1: wsys:read is just: defcfun ("read" ...) so that would be POSIX read. But we never know how much data the browser sends to the server, though. 2016-05-26T08:37:01Z knobo1: So if I did (read-sequence *input-buffer* (make-flexi-stream fd)) insted, would that work? 2016-05-26T08:38:12Z igam: Yes, that should work. 2016-05-26T08:38:59Z igam: If you know the size you should receive. 2016-05-26T08:41:07Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-05-26T08:42:13Z knobo1: no, that I don't know. 2016-05-26T08:42:25Z knobo1: How can I know how much the browser would send. 2016-05-26T08:42:45Z knobo1: Or how can I find out how much I need to read? 2016-05-26T08:43:35Z knobo1: fd is just a number 2016-05-26T08:43:44Z igam: The HTTP protocol specifies two ways to determine the end of a resource. 2016-05-26T08:43:52Z igam: Are you implementing http? 2016-05-26T08:43:54Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:44:19Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:44:19Z knobo1: igam: I'm not. I'm trying to make one that is already written work on linux 2016-05-26T08:45:41Z igam: tcp-read-cb already implements this loop, it seems. 2016-05-26T08:45:43Z blub` joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:45:45Z kjeldahl quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:46:33Z knobo1: But it calls the http parser before the whole request is read. 2016-05-26T08:46:55Z blub quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:47:21Z igam: Yes. It works "by event". The parser should wait for the next call when the sentence is not complete. 2016-05-26T08:47:34Z zRecursive quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T08:48:14Z kjeldahl joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:48:37Z knobo1: That would make sense, yes. 2016-05-26T08:48:42Z knobo1: igam: do you have linux? 2016-05-26T08:48:51Z knobo1: Maybe you could try to reproduce my problem 2016-05-26T08:49:11Z knobo1: https://github.com/knobo/upload-file 2016-05-26T08:49:18Z knobo1: Should be very easy to do 2016-05-26T08:49:28Z angavrilov joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:49:48Z knobo1: just load this project, and open a browser. 2016-05-26T08:50:14Z blub`` joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:51:54Z blub` quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:52:41Z igam: knobo1: at home; I'm at work with MacOSX. 2016-05-26T08:52:41Z moore33 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:52:53Z igam: knobo1: http://paste.lisp.org/display/316825 2016-05-26T08:53:43Z igam: knobo1: perhaps you could ask on #lispweb, they may know more about woo. I've used drakma so far, with satisfaction. 2016-05-26T08:57:06Z narendra` joined #lisp 2016-05-26T08:58:52Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T08:58:58Z igam: knobo1: what I'm saying is that the parser should expect incomplete buffers in any case, given this tcp-read-cb function. 2016-05-26T08:59:38Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:00:21Z knobo1: right. It can not read more then (defvar *buffer-size* (* 1024 64)) anyway. 2016-05-26T09:00:38Z mfranzwa joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:01:30Z Guest38323 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:02:54Z igam: indeed. 2016-05-26T09:03:51Z knobo1: So the question is, is the next read-cb called before the first one is finnished 2016-05-26T09:04:26Z knobo1: or, what makes this bug happen? 2016-05-26T09:04:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:04:45Z vydd quit (Changing host) 2016-05-26T09:04:45Z vydd joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:05:16Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T09:05:22Z mfranzwa quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:05:35Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:07:00Z vydd quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T09:10:47Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T09:11:26Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:15:20Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:16:06Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:18:09Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:19:25Z knobo1: Looks like the buffer is not cleared 2016-05-26T09:19:27Z knobo1: https://github.com/fukamachi/woo/issues/48#issuecomment-221820194 2016-05-26T09:19:36Z knobo1: between loops. 2016-05-26T09:21:11Z pepton4 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:24:57Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:26:13Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T09:27:41Z xrash quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T09:36:28Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:38:16Z wyrdmantis joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:46:54Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:46:54Z quazimodo quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T09:48:32Z sjl joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:49:28Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:49:49Z sjl__ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:51:22Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:52:15Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:55:17Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T09:58:39Z lnostdal joined #lisp 2016-05-26T09:58:48Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:00:51Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:01:49Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:02:02Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:03:04Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:03:20Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:05:33Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:05:48Z phoe_krk: News - WCL begins compiling, but it has way too many broken hardcoded homedir paths to actually finish. 2016-05-26T10:06:07Z phoe_krk: I'm pretty curious about it. 2016-05-26T10:07:23Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:08:21Z frgo_: what's WCL? 2016-05-26T10:10:32Z phoe_krk: 00:00 < Bike> lisp implementation built on top of an ancient indian burial ground 2016-05-26T10:11:08Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:12:00Z RedDwarf is now known as Zacketh 2016-05-26T10:13:41Z spacebat1: CONS Semetary 2016-05-26T10:13:56Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:15:52Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:17:46Z peey joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:17:49Z spacebat1: I've a class that has class allocated slots; Is there a normal MOP procedure for reading the slot from the class? 2016-05-26T10:18:10Z kushal joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:19:02Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:19:06Z moore33: spacebat1: I think the most reliable way is to obtain the class prototype and get the value from that. 2016-05-26T10:19:57Z spacebat1: I can see the value inside the class itself using the slime inspector, this is in ECL 2016-05-26T10:20:15Z spacebat1: moore33: by prototype do you mean the result of FIND-CLASS? 2016-05-26T10:20:29Z moore33: spacebat1: No, hang on. 2016-05-26T10:22:44Z spacebat1: ah I see 2016-05-26T10:22:45Z moore33: spacebat1: You would call class-prototype on the result of find-class (which returns the metaclass). 2016-05-26T10:23:12Z spacebat1: I can call the accessor method on the result of (mop:class-prototype (find-class ...)) 2016-05-26T10:23:21Z moore33: ... and then call the normal accessor on that. yes. 2016-05-26T10:23:31Z narendra` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:24:06Z spacebat1: thanks 2016-05-26T10:24:12Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:26:01Z loke quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:27:29Z stardiviner joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:27:56Z jjkola joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:28:18Z knobo quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:28:25Z knobo1 quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:28:28Z jjkola: hi 2016-05-26T10:28:35Z hlavaty joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:30:05Z Nikotiini joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:32:32Z yoonkn quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:34:13Z SamF joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:36:42Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:38:15Z spacebat1: hi 2016-05-26T10:38:40Z frgo_: spacebat1: What's wrong with slot-value ? 2016-05-26T10:38:53Z loke joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:38:56Z SamF quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:40:23Z spacebat1: frgo_: that only works with an instance of the class 2016-05-26T10:40:59Z spacebat1: given the class, get/set the current value of class allocated slots 2016-05-26T10:41:39Z shdeng quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T10:42:00Z spacebat1: I'm going through the obligatory "lets implement message passing OOP in CL" 2016-05-26T10:42:23Z frgo_: If there is no instance you can't set a value... 2016-05-26T10:42:29Z mfsa quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T10:43:17Z test1600 quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T10:43:26Z wyrdmantis quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:43:53Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:44:35Z spacebat1: frgo_: you can, if the slot is class allocated 2016-05-26T10:45:39Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:46:07Z devon joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:46:28Z devon: Howdy y'all! Anyone know of an expect-like lib in CL? 2016-05-26T10:46:35Z papachan` joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:47:10Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:47:48Z quazimodo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:48:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T10:48:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:48:57Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:50:27Z spacebat1: https://github.com/brianjcj/telnetlib-for-common-lisp 2016-05-26T10:50:41Z spacebat1: first result googling common lisp expect :) 2016-05-26T10:54:26Z devon: Maybe the first time I'd regret flushing Google in favor of DuckDuckGo. 2016-05-26T10:54:47Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T10:55:05Z spacebat1: at least DDG allows people to improve its community specific search resources 2016-05-26T10:55:31Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:56:20Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:57:16Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-26T10:58:45Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T11:00:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:00:36Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T11:00:55Z malice joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:01:12Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:03:19Z schjetne joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:03:35Z harish_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:05:37Z phoe_krk: if you don't have it in DDG, you can put it there 2016-05-26T11:07:30Z krasnal quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-05-26T11:08:32Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-26T11:10:04Z quazimodo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:12:30Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:15:13Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T11:15:29Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:16:16Z mvilleneuve joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:19:05Z agidyne joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:19:19Z malice quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T11:22:03Z harish_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:22:47Z bikeshedr joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:24:20Z guicho joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:25:52Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:27:12Z mbuf_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:27:24Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:28:55Z guicho quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T11:29:47Z mbuf quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:32:00Z sytse quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:32:35Z drdo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:33:10Z rotty quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:34:07Z bogdanm joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:34:54Z rotty joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:36:29Z drdo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:38:09Z rgrau joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:39:54Z sytse joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:42:04Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:42:19Z scymtym_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:43:40Z scymtym quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:44:11Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:45:16Z mbuf_ is now known as mbuf 2016-05-26T11:45:41Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T11:46:18Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:49:31Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:49:47Z scymtym_ quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:52:33Z schjetne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:54:45Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T11:56:10Z jason_m joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:56:29Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:56:35Z scymtym joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:58:55Z gilez joined #lisp 2016-05-26T11:59:19Z gilez is now known as Guest56272 2016-05-26T12:00:05Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:03:08Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:05:41Z m0li joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:07:03Z grouzen joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:10:52Z hiyosi joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:11:20Z jason_m quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:12:33Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T12:12:52Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:13:30Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T12:14:41Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:17:40Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:18:53Z unbalancedparen joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:19:57Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:20:09Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T12:20:12Z smokeink: i'm getting "cl-assoc: Symbol's function definition is void: equalp" when pressing M-. inside emacs , has anyone encoutered this issue before? 2016-05-26T12:20:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:25:55Z mbuf quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-26T12:27:21Z spacebat1: smokeink: I haven't; how did you install slime? 2016-05-26T12:27:35Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:31:45Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T12:31:49Z spacebat1: ah, I thought elisp had a native equalp, but it seems it is provided by the cl library 2016-05-26T12:32:03Z SamF joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:32:03Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:32:08Z JuanDaugherty joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:35:24Z igam: smokeink: equalp is an alias for cl-equalp in cl.el 2016-05-26T12:35:29Z igam: So: (require 'cl) 2016-05-26T12:36:36Z spacebat1: smokeink: it may be that you've not loaded slime properly or fully, as I'd expect it to require cl itself 2016-05-26T12:37:58Z rme joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:38:07Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:39:27Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:40:09Z ramky quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:43:04Z krasnal quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:43:40Z smokeink: after requiring 'cl it works fine, thanks 2016-05-26T12:44:58Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:45:31Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:46:44Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:46:50Z frgo_: spacebat1: Read again what I wrote... Allocation class :class makes slot values shared between instances of standard class class. You may, though, implement your own meta class which enables setting values in class objects themselves. 2016-05-26T12:47:12Z LiamH joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:47:32Z smokeink: that's basically how i load slime http://pastecode.ru/a3cf53/ 2016-05-26T12:47:43Z |2701 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:49:08Z spacebat1: frgo_: I was just trying to get at those class allocated slots from the class itself, and via the prototype was able to do so 2016-05-26T12:49:12Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T12:49:36Z spacebat1: unless the prototype counts as an instance, which I guess it could be considered to be 2016-05-26T12:49:50Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:50:00Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T12:50:53Z spacebat1: thanks for the clarification, such a metaclass could be useful 2016-05-26T12:50:56Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T12:53:00Z jerme joined #lisp 2016-05-26T12:55:32Z krasnal joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:00:08Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:04:07Z skbierm joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:06:37Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:08:55Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:09:52Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:11:24Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:11:33Z SamF quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:11:43Z FreeBirdLjj joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:13:31Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:13:55Z frgo_: spacebat1: The prototype will only be useful if you atr not inheriting from other classes than standard class. In all other cases you have to go through finalize-inheritance - which, in the end, will give you an instance... or, to be precise, will give you the same effect as you have gone through all steps which enable you to create an instance. Being curious: What's your use case? 2016-05-26T13:14:30Z FreeBird_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:15:38Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:16:30Z smokeink quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:17:19Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:18:08Z peey quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:18:10Z FreeBirdLjj quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:18:43Z FreeBird_ quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:18:50Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:19:12Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:19:39Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:19:55Z spacebat1: frgo_: I'm writing classes that support message-passing oop 2016-05-26T13:20:24Z profess quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:20:35Z spacebat1: each class should have a lookup table of functions to call when a message of a type is received 2016-05-26T13:21:04Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:21:32Z spacebat1: I figured to make the lookup table and a not-found function of last resort into slots which are class allocated 2016-05-26T13:21:36Z frgo_: Understood that. But specifically requires you to have access to that lookup table through the class itself rather than through an instance? 2016-05-26T13:21:56Z profess joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:22:15Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:22:23Z spacebat1: no need for it to vary between instances of a class 2016-05-26T13:23:17Z frgo_: It won"t - it' has :class allocation. 2016-05-26T13:26:21Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:26:27Z moore33: frgo_: I could see that he would want to initialize his table after defclass but before an instance is created. 2016-05-26T13:26:29Z moore33: whoops 2016-05-26T13:27:08Z spacebat1: oh I see what you mean - I'm writing a macro which expands to a defmethod-like expression 2016-05-26T13:27:53Z spacebat1: I intended to resolve the lookup table at method definition time, since I have the class and its class allocated 2016-05-26T13:27:57Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:28:07Z loic_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:28:11Z sepi`: how can I automatically enable a raeadtable like (cl-locale.reader:enable-locale-syntax) when I load a system in slime? Currently I enable the readtable in some files but have to do it manually in the repl in order to slime-compile-defun 2016-05-26T13:28:27Z spacebat1: so that the hash table is included in the closure that is the body of the method 2016-05-26T13:30:01Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:31:30Z eudoxia joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:32:15Z zalatovo quit (Excess Flood) 2016-05-26T13:34:34Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:34:39Z zalatovo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:34:42Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:35:28Z krasnal quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:36:09Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:37:44Z al-damiri joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:38:01Z EvW joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:39:08Z zalatovo quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:41:49Z jjkola quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2016-05-26T13:42:37Z EvW quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:46:50Z test1600_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:46:56Z walter|r quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:48:21Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:52:06Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:52:06Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T13:52:40Z frgo_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:54:39Z moore33: frgo_: I could see that he would want to initialize his table after defclass but before an instance is created. 2016-05-26T13:54:57Z moore33: frgo_: Also, I don't understand your point about finalize-inheritance. 2016-05-26T13:56:15Z frgo_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T13:56:52Z vlatkoB_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:58:06Z smokeink joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:59:29Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2016-05-26T13:59:35Z spacebat1: significant connectivity problems 2016-05-26T13:59:53Z moore33: Yeah, conversation isn't worth the trouble. 2016-05-26T14:00:09Z zacharias joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:00:31Z vlatkoB quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:00:53Z spacebat1: interesting though, I haven't done nearly enough MOP spelunking 2016-05-26T14:01:13Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:02:10Z warweasle joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:04:02Z frgo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:04:12Z moore33: frgo: Back for realz? 2016-05-26T14:05:51Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:06:32Z frgo: moore33: But why not use shared-initialize :before method to imit the slot? 2016-05-26T14:07:17Z moore33: frgo: Shared-initialize on what class? 2016-05-26T14:08:02Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:08:06Z frgo: Am on and off as I'm on vacation and just read in between sightseeing.., Sorry for that. 2016-05-26T14:08:21Z spacebat1: nice 2016-05-26T14:09:23Z moore33: frgo: I can only speculate on what spacebat1 is doing. But, if you want to access class slots and don't have an instance around, you need to dig the class prototype out of the metaobject and go through that. Or, put another way, there *is* always an instance of a class: the class prototype. 2016-05-26T14:09:33Z moore33: frgo: No prob. 2016-05-26T14:10:29Z frgo: Hm - best I code some small snippet when I am back at the hotel. No need to make things 2016-05-26T14:10:48Z moore33: Sounds like an ideal vacation :) 2016-05-26T14:10:51Z knobo1 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:10:58Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-05-26T14:11:16Z frgo: more complicated as they are ;-) 2016-05-26T14:13:03Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:13:16Z spacebat1: frgo implied that there was an issue with inheritance using prototypes 2016-05-26T14:14:14Z spacebat1: I'll look into that - perhaps for this (like a vtable for single dispatch functions attached to classes) - a metaclass providing a slot on the class object is best 2016-05-26T14:14:30Z happy-dude joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:14:52Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:14:53Z frgo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T14:14:59Z spacebat1: its just experimentation, and its already serving the purpose of leading to better understanding 2016-05-26T14:15:08Z sz0 quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-05-26T14:15:30Z rpg quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T14:16:49Z moore33: spacebat1: The only issue with inheritance -- and some would see it as an advantage -- is that class allocated slots are not shared with inherited classes. Each class gets its own class slots. 2016-05-26T14:17:24Z mishoo quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:17:43Z moore33: But you would also have this problem if you stored your class values in the metaobjects themselves. 2016-05-26T14:18:04Z igam joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:19:40Z test1600_ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:24:47Z loic_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T14:24:49Z knobo1 quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T14:26:15Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:28:44Z spacebat1: right 2016-05-26T14:29:33Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:30:30Z spacebat1: that's probably what I'd want anyway - each class looks up a method for a message sent to it, and if not found, defers to its parent, and if all parents fail, call not-found-method 2016-05-26T14:31:08Z Petit_Dejeuner quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:33:03Z Karl_Dscc quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T14:33:13Z adolf_stalin joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:34:30Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:35:38Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:37:50Z sz0 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:39:49Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:40:14Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:40:25Z kobain quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-05-26T14:45:02Z kobain joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:46:46Z dyelar joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:47:01Z sondr3 joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:47:40Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:49:05Z DavidGuru quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:52:03Z sondr3 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:52:10Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:52:42Z pepton joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:54:34Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T14:55:44Z pepton4 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2016-05-26T14:58:06Z rpg joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:03:33Z grouzen quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T15:04:47Z mathrick_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:06:31Z mathrick quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-05-26T15:07:39Z ukari quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-05-26T15:09:24Z mishoo quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-05-26T15:09:54Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:10:04Z ukari joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:10:19Z SamF joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:10:50Z nzambe joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:11:00Z krrrcks quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-05-26T15:12:08Z tax quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T15:12:31Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:13:08Z krrrcks joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:13:12Z mishoo quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T15:14:25Z maucar joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:14:31Z mishoo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:15:21Z Karl_Dscc joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:15:55Z mvilleneuve quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2016-05-26T15:16:08Z tax quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T15:16:22Z tax joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:17:36Z flamebeard quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-05-26T15:19:33Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-05-26T15:22:47Z nowhereman joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:27:50Z frgo joined #lisp 2016-05-26T15:32:14Z rpg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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I have a grant proposal deadline looming. But I ask because I'm always thinking about coding. 2016-05-26T16:47:45Z drmeister: asked 2016-05-26T16:48:01Z beach: OK. So if I do it first, that's fine with you? 2016-05-26T16:48:05Z drmeister: I should be working on the proposal now but here I am - thinking about coding. 2016-05-26T16:48:11Z beach: Or do you particularly want to try it yourself? 2016-05-26T16:48:12Z drmeister: Absolutely, that would be wonderful. 2016-05-26T16:48:15Z beach: OK. 2016-05-26T16:48:23Z drmeister: No, I know what to do - but it's your baby. 2016-05-26T16:49:16Z walter|r joined #lisp 2016-05-26T16:49:18Z drmeister: Rather, I think I know what to do, and I would do that and debug it and get back to you if it didn't work. But I've implemented AST-nodes and HIR-instructions in Cleavir. It's not my first rodeo. 2016-05-26T16:49:22Z beach: Tonight I have dinner guests, so it will be tomorrow (UTC+2) at the earliest. 2016-05-26T16:49:33Z beach: Right. 2016-05-26T16:50:01Z drmeister: No problem. I might steal away some time to implement lowering it to llvm-ir. I'm incorrigible when it comes to coding. 2016-05-26T16:50:13Z mastokley joined #lisp 2016-05-26T16:51:18Z IPmonger joined #lisp 2016-05-26T16:51:20Z igam quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-05-26T16:54:33Z walter|r quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T16:55:45Z IPmonger quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T16:58:20Z bullets joined #lisp 2016-05-26T16:59:19Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-26T17:00:20Z d4ryus_ joined #lisp 2016-05-26T17:00:20Z d4ryus quit (Killed (verne.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))) 2016-05-26T17:00:20Z d4ryus_ is now known as d4ryus 2016-05-26T17:00:31Z gabriel_laddel: http://imgur.com/Quuawhy 2016-05-26T17:01:23Z beach: Is that Macsyma? 2016-05-26T17:01:33Z agidyne quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-05-26T17:01:35Z stardiviner quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-05-26T17:01:36Z beach: Or rather Maxima? 2016-05-26T17:01:56Z gabriel_laddel: beach: yes 2016-05-26T17:02:11Z beach: But you display it in a Drei window? 2016-05-26T17:02:20Z gabriel_laddel: beach: yes. 2016-05-26T17:02:34Z beach: I didn't know this was possible. It looks very nice! How is it done? 2016-05-26T17:02:47Z gabriel_laddel quit (Client Quit) 2016-05-26T17:04:02Z gabriel_laddel joined #lisp 2016-05-26T17:04:24Z gabriel_laddel: fking terrible wifi 2016-05-26T17:04:53Z beach: gabriel_laddel: I said: I didn't know this was possible. It looks very nice! How is it done? 2016-05-26T17:05:10Z gabriel_laddel: beach: sorry, I just realized the amount of work it would take to pull out the LaTeX rendering code 2016-05-26T17:05:22Z gabriel_laddel: It'll have to wait until masamune replicates 2016-05-26T17:06:54Z schjetne: gabriel_laddel: looks really cool 2016-05-26T17:07:06Z gabriel_laddel: beach: the gist is this http://paste.lisp.org/display/316857 2016-05-26T17:07:10Z beach: gabriel_laddel: Pull it out from where? 2016-05-26T17:07:15Z schjetne: I haven't used Maxima much, basically only as a desk calculator 2016-05-26T17:07:43Z gabriel_laddel: beach: just on disk, scattered across god knows how many files 2016-05-26T17:08:22Z gabriel_laddel: the problem is that it, like everything else is dependent on a bunch of masamune utils, changes to McCLIM, climacs etc. 2016-05-26T17:08:35Z beach: I see. 2016-05-26T17:08:39Z gabriel_laddel: oh, and extra code to even get Macsyma loaded into the same lisp process 2016-05-26T17:09:00Z beach: It would be nice if that stuff could be cleaned up some day and published. 2016-05-26T17:09:37Z gabriel_laddel: beach: it'll be published along with everything else as a single unit when the replication works 2016-05-26T17:09:49Z gabriel_laddel: but until I can generate the correct liveCD, no dice 2016-05-26T17:10:07Z beach: I am not in a rush. Just saying.