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2016-04-01T00:52:13Z warweasle: Once again Microsoft is trying to get into the unix shell game...
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2016-04-01T04:03:07Z chattered: Not really sure what the point of a bunch of UNIX commands in a non-UNIX ecosystem.
2016-04-01T04:03:23Z chattered: *what the point is
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2016-04-01T04:09:02Z aeth: chattered: The Linux on Windows thing? It's not Unix commands, it's not bash, and it's not "GNU/Windows". A lot of people are talking about it incorrectly. Unless I'm mistaken, the point of the announcement is that it's the Linux ABI, i.e. the binary interface, i.e. it can run Linux binaries without recompilation, unlike cygwin.
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2016-04-01T05:09:25Z pillton: Does anyone know what this is about? http://paste.lisp.org/display/312041
2016-04-01T05:09:57Z pillton: SBCL 1.3.2 and the core is just a dump of my .sbclrc.
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2016-04-01T05:39:56Z lieven: sbcl would be a nice test for the Windows lxcore thing
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2016-04-01T08:10:24Z chattered: aeth: Ah, I'll have to have another look into it then.
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2016-04-01T08:20:47Z scymtym_: clhs load-time-value seems to say that, in a COMPILE-FILE context, the form is macroexpanded and compiled according to "normal semantics". doesn't that mean http://paste.lisp.org/display/312052 should work?
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2016-04-01T08:25:25Z Bike: uh, yeah, that's how i would read it too, though it's not a problem i'd like to have
2016-04-01T08:27:16Z scymtym_: it is relevant for e.g. compiler-macros that turn stuff like (parse expr input) into (parse/compiled (l-t-v (comp expr)) input)
2016-04-01T08:27:37Z scymtym_: i think cl-ppcre and esrap do that, for example
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2016-04-01T08:30:52Z DeadTrickster: scymtym_, morning, remember you sent me a paste yesterday? I want more of this please
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2016-04-01T08:33:21Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: it is experimental, a mess, not ready, SBCL-only (and will probably be one of [L]GPL). are you still interested?
2016-04-01T08:38:51Z jackdaniel: what is /this/?
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2016-04-01T08:41:18Z DeadTrickster: scymtym_, yeah
2016-04-01T08:41:30Z jackdaniel: btw, to make ECL modern I've refactored it's transpiler to produce PHP/JS code instead of an ancient C/C++ :)
2016-04-01T08:41:41Z DeadTrickster: that's cool
2016-04-01T08:41:52Z scymtym_: jackdaniel: DeadTrickster is referring to http://paste.lisp.org/display/311983 which is an example of some sequence/iterator/generator-related code i'm working on
2016-04-01T08:42:01Z jackdaniel: ah, thanks
2016-04-01T08:42:04Z DeadTrickster: next step - transpiler to common lisp
2016-04-01T08:42:44Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: https://github.com/scymtym/traverse/blob/wip-sequence-iterators/src/generator.lisp (some parts are in other files on the same branch)
2016-04-01T08:43:02Z scymtym_: but i really cannot recommend trying to use it at this point
2016-04-01T08:43:36Z DeadTrickster: scymtym_, are you working for franz?
2016-04-01T08:45:22Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: if you are referring to the company, no
2016-04-01T08:46:31Z DeadTrickster: overall it looks promising yet heavy
2016-04-01T08:46:37Z DeadTrickster: not sure this is good for speedy code
2016-04-01T08:47:51Z DeadTrickster: maybe I should look for custom iterate construct, or pass sink as an argument recursively
2016-04-01T08:47:54Z scymtym_: unlikely. it is intended for cases in which the overhead doesn't matter
2016-04-01T08:49:29Z DeadTrickster: what would you use for tree traversal and 'streaming'?
2016-04-01T08:50:44Z scymtym_: return a one-value-at-a-time returning closure that the consumer calls repeatedly?
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2016-04-01T08:51:11Z DeadTrickster: sounds like generator
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2016-04-01T08:51:22Z scymtym_: yes
2016-04-01T08:52:34Z scymtym_: you could have a look at the "pipe" concept in the xpath system
2016-04-01T08:53:15Z scymtym_: it is used to "stream" xpath matches
2016-04-01T08:53:36Z DeadTrickster: you mean | ?
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2016-04-01T08:54:09Z DeadTrickster: or plexippus-xpath ?
2016-04-01T08:54:38Z scymtym_: the latter
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2016-04-01T08:57:38Z DeadTrickster: ok, thanks
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2016-04-01T10:26:56Z olpery: hey
2016-04-01T10:27:57Z olpery: if there was such a thing as a typed lisp, would you prefer pre- og postfix type names? "int var" vs "var: int". Other alternatives? This extends to function types, of course, so (a: int, b: int): int is an option
2016-04-01T10:28:23Z olpery: the var: type syntax seems to be popular these days. I wish the colon didn't require typing shift though :)
2016-04-01T10:28:33Z olpery: thoughs on what works best?
2016-04-01T10:28:49Z jackdaniel: olpery: rather something more method-like (defmethod foo ((var-name var-type) (var2-name var2-type)) …)
2016-04-01T10:29:17Z jackdaniel: it may be eventually (var-name :var-type)
2016-04-01T10:29:30Z olpery: jackdaniel: I program in Go occasionally, which does that. I think it's kinda hard to read in complex expressions
2016-04-01T10:29:37Z olpery: the type name drowns
2016-04-01T10:29:40Z jackdaniel: more lispy than name: type (imo obv)
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2016-04-01T10:30:45Z jackdaniel: olpery: check out cffi examples
2016-04-01T10:30:52Z jackdaniel: (defcfun …)
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2016-04-01T10:31:47Z jackdaniel: it's more like (defcfun name return-type (var :type) (var :type) …)
2016-04-01T10:32:00Z olpery: maybe
2016-04-01T10:32:59Z jackdaniel: what is somewhate better since it's already used (smaller cognitive effort)
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2016-04-01T10:33:06Z jackdaniel: somewhat°
2016-04-01T10:33:42Z olpery: i am free to do whatever, this is merely a lisp-like language, not a lisp dialect. So looking for ideas for the basics.
2016-04-01T10:33:48Z olpery: i like :type though
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2016-04-01T10:36:24Z jackdaniel: of course you are free to do whatever, you've asked about the opinions not directions ;) I've got to go o/
2016-04-01T10:36:34Z olpery: huh
2016-04-01T10:36:40Z olpery: bye
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2016-04-01T11:14:41Z schjetne: If I want static types I'd just use Haskell. It was designed with this in mind and I think it shows in its syntax.
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2016-04-01T11:16:44Z schjetne: Better than to shoehorn it into Lisp, which I prefer just being Lisp.
2016-04-01T11:17:51Z djh seems to recall reading Racket does static types the other day
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2016-04-01T11:26:56Z attila_lendvai disagrees with schjetne
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2016-04-01T11:51:48Z schjetne: attila_lendvai: with which part?
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2016-04-01T12:21:09Z pjb: olpery: clos uses (parameter class).  It would be natural to use (parameter type).
2016-04-01T12:21:46Z pjb: defstruct uses (slot initval [:type type])  So a typed-let could use something similar.
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2016-04-01T12:24:27Z attila_lendvai: schjetne: I like the non-sytanx of lisp, regardless of whether types are involved or not. a simple syntax (not necessarily lisp syntax) helps with editing and I think for me it also helps reading (well-written) lisp code
2016-04-01T12:25:43Z pjb: olpery: however, lisp is already typed.  You definite do you want the programmer to be specifying the types. It's not the programmer's job.  It's the compiler's job! (cf. Haskell).  What you could want to do, is to define a more systematic type system for a lisp, than the Common Lisp type system, so that a compiler of that lisp could do a better job at determining at compilation time the types.
2016-04-01T12:26:09Z pjb: olpery: ie. This is not a syntactic problem, it's a hard semantic problem. Start by studing Haskell.
2016-04-01T12:26:55Z pjb: Xach:  on April 1st, fishes are fresh.
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2016-04-01T12:42:05Z olpery: pjb: i know haskell, just looking for input on syntax. (parameter class) has the same problem as Go, namely it's hard to read when the expressions get complex (at least for me)
2016-04-01T12:42:21Z olpery: probably end up with var: type as most "modern" languages seem to do
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2016-04-01T12:43:25Z pjb: olpery: really, do not let the programmer write the types!  Have the compiler do all the work.
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2016-04-01T12:44:00Z olpery: pjb: really, i do what i want
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2016-04-01T12:44:17Z olpery: optionally allowing type annotations is important for what i do
2016-04-01T12:44:23Z olpery: with inference doing most of the work
2016-04-01T12:44:23Z pjb: olpery: the types are very useless to be written.  If I tell you f:NxN->N  you cannot make anything of it.
2016-04-01T12:44:51Z olpery: me and my IDE disagrees
2016-04-01T12:44:56Z olpery: anyhoo
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2016-04-01T12:45:14Z pjb: If I tell you (defun f (x y) (+ x y)), you can infer all you want, and even that N is not the INTEGER, but NUMBER.
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2016-04-01T15:08:53Z m0li: Hi everybody, I was read CLOS from ANSI Common Lisp (P. Graham) and Practical Common Lisp (P. Seibel), but I need read source code, any recomendation? please... (I'm a newbie)... I'm thinking in https://gitlab.com/mordocai/crypts-and-corpses, it's okay?
2016-04-01T15:09:07Z m0li: That repository is very good, but I don't know if is very advanced for started
2016-04-01T15:09:47Z Xach: m0li: i learned a lot from the cl-ppcre sources.
2016-04-01T15:10:06Z Xach: m0li: sonya keene's book about clos is also pretty good as a tutorial
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2016-04-01T15:10:55Z m0li: oh, Xach thanks you!
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2016-04-01T15:16:17Z djh has found the AMOP book's code interesting, no idea if it's still considered "good" tho
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2016-04-01T15:17:08Z Xach: It's a good example of designing a pretty featureful system
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2016-04-01T15:19:00Z moore33: I still think AMOP is great, along with Keene.
2016-04-01T15:19:25Z djh: I read Keene first, and am now onto AMOP. Even if I never need to know about it, I find the details of the MOP interesting
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2016-04-01T15:33:47Z Xach: paul graham's treatment of clos is pretty shabby. it covers the basics, but isn't worth really following.
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2016-04-01T15:39:44Z djh: It's probably better than Land Of Lisp's, which I found very odd
2016-04-01T15:40:58Z moore33: Paul Graham just doesn't like CLOS and doesn't get it either.
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2016-04-01T15:44:04Z Xach: rough combo
2016-04-01T15:44:23Z m0li: oh, thank you for your recommendations! for me P.Graham is a "hard way of CLOS" but illustrative
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2016-04-01T16:13:51Z oleo: can you compile sbcl without clos ?
2016-04-01T16:13:57Z oleo: s/you/one/
2016-04-01T16:14:44Z oleo: how'd you bootstrap a closette then ?
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2016-04-01T16:15:31Z djh: you could start from a Scheme? :)
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2016-04-01T16:38:53Z flip214: Is there some way to run all defined 5am test suites via one command? Does 5am have a list of defined suites?
2016-04-01T16:39:37Z jackdaniel: 5am:run-all-tests
2016-04-01T16:39:51Z jackdaniel: (at least I would try that first)
2016-04-01T16:41:06Z jackdaniel: ah, it's only exported
2016-04-01T16:41:24Z jackdaniel: the good news is that this function is probably planned :)
2016-04-01T16:42:37Z jackdaniel: flip214: you have to iterate over hasmap *test* in fiveam package (not sure if it's exported)
2016-04-01T16:42:46Z jackdaniel: and call run on keys
2016-04-01T16:43:18Z jackdaniel: there is function test-names
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2016-04-01T16:45:57Z jackdaniel: (mapcar #'5am::run (5am::test-names)) ; :)
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2016-04-01T16:58:21Z vanila: hello
2016-04-01T16:58:31Z vanila: im trying to covert a list copy function to tail recursive
2016-04-01T16:58:45Z vanila: is this correct (defun copy-list (xs memo) (if (null? xs) memo (copy-list (cdr xs) (cons (car xs) memo))) ?
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2016-04-01T17:00:16Z Bike: that is tail recursive, sure.
2016-04-01T17:00:18Z jackdaniel: you don't have a guarantee that it will be tail recursive (spec doesn't enforce that), but yeah, this definition will make TCO possible
2016-04-01T17:00:29Z vanila: ok thanks
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2016-04-01T17:41:38Z henjl: ahh it's a wonderful day :)
2016-04-01T17:42:10Z DeadTrickster: no it's not
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2016-04-01T19:06:59Z drmeister: can symbols have an unbound symbol-package?   gensyms have the home package of NIL.
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2016-04-01T19:08:11Z pjb: not unbound, but (or null package).
2016-04-01T19:08:19Z pjb: Indeed, uninterned symbols have nil.
2016-04-01T19:08:34Z pjb: when you import them, they become interned.
2016-04-01T19:09:22Z drmeister: Thanks - my mistake - it's a very special symbol that I defined and I haven't set the package.
2016-04-01T19:09:24Z pjb: (let ((s (make-symbol "soo"))) (print (symbol-package s)) (import s) (print (symbol-package s)) (eq (find-symbol "soo") s)) #| nil #<Package "COMMON-LISP-USER">  --> t |#
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2016-04-01T19:12:17Z drmeister: I have a bug that is exposing a bug when an error is signaled.
2016-04-01T19:13:07Z DeadTrickster: we are going deeper here
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2016-04-01T19:31:22Z attila_lendvai has a twisted attraction towards debugging and fixing debuggers and error handling...
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2016-04-01T20:04:32Z Xach: hmm
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2016-04-01T22:27:09Z bullets: wow X3J13 is going to revise the standard?
2016-04-01T22:27:11Z bullets: https://goo.gl/SsAhv
2016-04-01T22:27:29Z phoe_krk_: bullets: OPQJEBGOPJQEBGOPWBEGOJBOGOJBGKSJDOFVBDSHIGBOSDJFOEQ NIGBODAJBOJSDHOGKHSDDSJKFOSDBOJNDOFJBSDOFJBOSDJKFOSDJBG
2016-04-01T22:27:52Z phoe_krk_: OQEPEGHQOEJEGBPQQEHKBOGBJQGOBKWJBGPOQJOGJHNOJBKLSJFDGBLKADJOPGBJOAFAJDSOGBQOEGJOQWGOSKFGPOSFJGJNPODNKONDPGKJPADKNGOJAGOSHGLKJSHLGKHOPSKFG
2016-04-01T22:28:00Z phoe_krk_: This is exciting!
2016-04-01T22:28:07Z bullets: see the link
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2016-04-01T22:31:42Z phoe_krk_: yes
2016-04-01T22:31:43Z phoe_krk_: I did
2016-04-01T22:31:46Z phoe_krk_: I'm reading now
2016-04-01T22:32:13Z phoe_krk_: wow, they really want to make it contemporary
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2016-04-01T22:33:01Z phoe_krk_: standarized threads, sockets, GC options, Lisp image creation...
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2016-04-01T22:38:37Z bullets: there's going to be a library system too
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2016-04-01T22:39:25Z phoe_krk_: oh! a set of functions to allow easy communication between Lisp images
2016-04-01T22:39:41Z phoe_krk_: including a built-in protocol for serialization
2016-04-01T22:39:46Z phoe_krk_: this is wonderful
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2016-04-01T22:44:22Z bullets: brb
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2016-04-01T23:44:11Z aeth: phoe_krk_: but why would they invent their own instead of using conspack?
2016-04-01T23:44:52Z phoe_krk_: aeth: shh, they're essentially standarizing conspack now
2016-04-01T23:45:03Z phoe_krk_: what license is it under anyway?
2016-04-01T23:46:45Z zach`: phoe_krk_: whats the link to your documentation project?
2016-04-01T23:47:06Z aeth: phoe_krk_: https://github.com/conspack/cl-conspack/blob/master/cl-conspack.asd#L9
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2016-04-01T23:47:36Z aeth: phoe_krk_: This is one of the reasons why crawling Github undercounts the number of licensed projects on the site... because who is going to think of looking for that one line in the .asd file instead of LICENSE or something?
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2016-04-01T23:48:26Z phoe_krk_: zach`: ummm
2016-04-01T23:48:36Z phoe_krk_: http://phoe.tymoon.eu/clus/
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2016-04-01T23:49:34Z zach`: Thanks
2016-04-01T23:50:33Z phoe_krk_: Np!
2016-04-01T23:50:40Z phoe_krk_: Need any help with it?
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2016-04-01T23:51:06Z phoe_krk_: Right now I'm developing a better-suited set of regexes for this, now that I have discovered that regexes *can* and *DO* have recursion.
2016-04-01T23:51:58Z phoe_krk_: Which helps me with parens a real lot.
2016-04-01T23:52:06Z phoe_krk_: And will help me with TeX syntax.
2016-04-01T23:52:12Z aeth: It would be cool if the mini-buffer could handle format strings like it can handle functions/macros. Has anyone attempted this before? Is it even possible in emacs?
2016-04-01T23:52:19Z phoe_krk_: Sadly, pandoc doesn't do well with Lisp standard sources.
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2016-04-01T23:52:30Z phoe_krk_: aeth: give me examples
2016-04-01T23:52:32Z pjb: phoe_krk_: regexp cannot and have not recursion.
2016-04-01T23:52:32Z phoe_krk_: What do you mean?
2016-04-01T23:52:47Z phoe_krk_: pjb: http://www.regular-expressions.info/recurse.html
2016-04-01T23:52:55Z pjb: phoe_krk_: you may have found some parser that implements a more powerful language than regular languages.
2016-04-01T23:53:03Z pjb: But those are not regular expressions.
2016-04-01T23:53:21Z pjb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomsky_hierarchy
2016-04-01T23:53:54Z phoe_krk_: pjb: yes, yes, I know, second grammar class.
2016-04-01T23:53:55Z pjb: My advice: if you need recursion, use a parser!
2016-04-01T23:53:58Z phoe_krk_: class grammar.
2016-04-01T23:54:17Z aeth: phoe_krk_: Assume | is the cursor. (format t |"~A" foo) shows (format destination control-string &rest format-arguments) in the mini-buffer. (format t "~|A" foo) should show ~mincol,colinc,minpad,padcharA in the mini-buffer, based on the description here: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cda.htm
2016-04-01T23:55:07Z phoe_krk_: aeth: ..it should be possible.
2016-04-01T23:55:15Z pjb: More importantly (my-function "/|A") shoud show … whatever the API you will define reports for my-function /A.
2016-04-01T23:55:30Z pjb: ==> define APIs to collect this kind of information.
2016-04-01T23:55:49Z phoe_krk_: Given the cursor's position, it will be trivial to check the chars in proximity.
2016-04-01T23:55:49Z pjb:  Don't hardwire it only for the CL package.
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2016-04-01T23:56:01Z phoe_krk_: And when you can do that, you can display the string for the proper ~something.
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2016-04-02T00:00:59Z dyre17: Not sure if this is the correct channel to ask, but: Was compiling sbcl and got *** - No more room for LISP objects ... Tried Google first but not helpful
2016-04-02T00:01:15Z phoe_krk_: First of all, #sbcl!
2016-04-02T00:01:20Z phoe_krk_: Second of all: OS and platform!
2016-04-02T00:01:42Z phoe_krk_: Third of all: everyone'll want the whole compilation log, or at least the error part.
2016-04-02T00:01:47Z phoe_krk_: Fourth of all: hi!
2016-04-02T00:02:03Z aeth: For pasting sites, the Lisp channels use: http://paste.lisp.org/
2016-04-02T00:02:09Z phoe_krk_: Fifth of all: give us more data, it's hard to tell what's going on by just a few words.
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2016-04-02T00:02:33Z dyre17: netbsd / amd64 / Using pkgsrc
2016-04-02T00:03:46Z dyre17: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312145
2016-04-02T00:05:11Z phoe_krk_: ASau: ryoshu told me to ping you
2016-04-02T00:05:18Z phoe_krk_: because of dyre17's bugreport
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2016-04-02T00:14:26Z phoe_krk_: zach`: now I'm curious why you asked for my docs so far
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2016-04-02T00:22:37Z zach`: phoe_krk_: curiousity, thats it
2016-04-02T00:23:05Z phoe_krk_: zach`: :P
2016-04-02T00:23:11Z phoe_krk_: Right now, the cons dict is in there.
2016-04-02T00:23:16Z zach`: Sorry to disappoint, hehe.
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2016-04-02T00:23:25Z phoe_krk_: nah, I assumed as much
2016-04-02T00:23:36Z phoe_krk_: still working on the tools
2016-04-02T00:24:11Z DeadTrickster: jeśli chcesz pogadać po polsku,
2016-04-02T00:24:16Z DeadTrickster: I almost understand it
2016-04-02T00:24:22Z DeadTrickster: funny
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2016-04-02T00:28:51Z dyre17: So, should I try #sbcl?
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2016-04-02T00:36:18Z phoe_krk_: dyre17: I poked the developer
2016-04-02T00:36:22Z phoe_krk_: You could try #sbcl, yes
2016-04-02T00:36:28Z phoe_krk_: DeadTrickster: :P
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2016-04-02T00:37:51Z DeadTrickster: :-) good night guys!
2016-04-02T00:37:53Z phoe_krk_: https://twitter.com/dk_jackdaniel/status/715821781760794626
2016-04-02T00:37:54Z phoe_krk_: night
2016-04-02T00:38:20Z ChanServ has set mode +o fe[nl]ix
2016-04-02T00:38:30Z phoe_krk_: oh, also
2016-04-02T00:38:38Z phoe_krk_: today's meeting of our kraklisp group was a good one
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2016-04-02T00:38:59Z phoe_krk_: there was a good and competent introduction to FORTRAN 77
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2016-04-02T01:21:03Z spacebat: just mucking about I've created a struct and later decided to make it a class
2016-04-02T01:21:21Z spacebat: on SBCL this runs into Cannot CHANGE-CLASS objects into CLASS metaobjects.
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2016-04-02T01:21:56Z phoe_krk_: spacebat: structs aren't CLOS objects.
2016-04-02T01:22:28Z spacebat: they seem to be in lispworks, but I guess that's an implementation detail
2016-04-02T01:22:39Z phoe_krk_: clhs change-class
2016-04-02T01:22:39Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
2016-04-02T01:22:42Z spacebat: I'm interested in undefining the struct so I can proceed with this operation
2016-04-02T01:23:00Z spacebat: without restarting
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2016-04-02T01:25:14Z phoe_krk_: UNINTERN its symbol.
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2016-04-02T01:25:35Z phoe_krk_: If you went (defstruct name ...) then go (unintern 'name) and then you can (defclass name ...)
2016-04-02T01:26:08Z spacebat: doesn't seem to work (on sbcl at least)
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2016-04-02T01:26:36Z phoe_krk_: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312149
2016-04-02T01:26:41Z phoe_krk_: works here
2016-04-02T01:27:03Z spacebat: yeah, I just created a simple example of it and it works
2016-04-02T01:27:29Z spacebat: oh, sorry package confusion, I uninterned the name in a different package
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2016-04-02T01:28:49Z spacebat: thanks for the advice phoe_krk_
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2016-04-02T01:30:18Z phoe_krk_: spacebat: :3
2016-04-02T01:30:20Z phoe_krk_: no problem
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2016-04-02T01:30:21Z phoe_krk_: good night~
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2016-04-02T01:32:02Z spacebat: laters
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2016-04-02T02:14:27Z Xach: sd/win 3
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2016-04-02T03:43:41Z drmeister: Xach: Did you work with Peter Norvig's prolog in CL?
2016-04-02T03:43:56Z drmeister: Someone said that you fixed it up.
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2016-04-02T04:45:59Z drmeister: How does one get a list of slot names that a class supports?
2016-04-02T04:47:16Z Bike: "supports"?
2016-04-02T04:47:16Z Bike: +
2016-04-02T04:47:34Z drmeister: (mapcar (lambda (x) (clos::slot-definition-name x)) (clos::class-slots (find-class 'cleavir-ir:enclose-instruction)))
2016-04-02T04:47:37Z drmeister: supports?
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2016-04-02T04:47:59Z Bike: i'm not sure what you mean by "supports", but yes, that's pretty much what i would do
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2016-04-02T05:37:52Z drmeister: Thanks Bike
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2016-04-02T06:23:18Z reepca: I'm trying to define a macro named "defvar" in a different package that uses the normal defvar from the common-lisp package, but am getting the error "the variable DEFVAR is unbound", even when I refer to it explicitly as common-lisp:defvar
2016-04-02T06:23:47Z Bike: paste your code?
2016-04-02T06:24:30Z reepca: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312170
2016-04-02T06:25:53Z Bike: your package doesn't USE c-l, so "DEFMACRO" is read as MY-TEST::DEFMACRO, which of course has no definition, so the compiler assumes it's a function and tries to interpret the rest of the code in a dumb fashion
2016-04-02T06:26:12Z Bike: you want (defpackage :my-test (:use :cl))
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2016-04-02T06:26:18Z reepca: OH, that makes sense now. Thanks
2016-04-02T06:26:46Z Bike: you should pretty much never not have a :use in a defpackage, since the default packages used if there's no :use are implementation-defined and variable
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2016-04-02T06:28:10Z reepca: well, now it's saying that there's no such function as :use, but I can probably just check the hyperspec for that
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2016-04-02T06:29:24Z reepca: ... okay, apparently the compiler can be in a different package than the repl? Did not know that...
2016-04-02T06:30:05Z Bike: what do you mean
2016-04-02T06:30:46Z reepca: I mean when I hit C-c C-c to compile, it complains about there being no :use function, but when I enter it in the SLIME repl after switching back to package cl-user it works fine
2016-04-02T06:30:54Z reepca: but still doesn't work when compiling with C-c C-c
2016-04-02T06:31:24Z reepca: restarting the entire thing seems to have fixed it... not including that (:use :cl) definitely does some weird stuff
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2016-04-02T06:52:42Z reepca: Question... in the hyperspec for "declare", it says that it can't be expanded by a macro... does this mean that any dreams of having a nice little DSL of lisp that can be statically typed and pass on its type information to the compiler are dead? Or are there ways of generating declare-ish information for the compiler with macros?
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2016-04-02T07:00:43Z Bike: you can do that already with type declarations
2016-04-02T07:01:07Z Bike: and what that means is that you can't expand into a declare form, not that, say, macroexpansions can't involve declarations
2016-04-02T07:02:03Z Bike: so you could have a macro to expand (typed-let ((foo integer) ...) ...) into (let ((foo 0) ...) (declare (type integer foo)) ...) or whatever
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2016-04-02T07:05:38Z reepca: ah, okay. I was trying to do something like that with defvar, but it occurs to me that I don't actually know that declare even works with defvar. The hyperspec makes it sound like it only goes *inside* of certain blocks of code.
2016-04-02T07:06:05Z Bike: it uh, doesn't work with defvar, i don't know what that would mean.
2016-04-02T07:06:20Z Bike: a global declaration you do with declaim or something, there's no cl:declare involved even.
2016-04-02T07:06:37Z reepca: alright, thanks
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2016-04-02T07:07:00Z Bike: you can't expand into declare forms because "declare" isn't a function or anything, it's just a notation that is, yes, part of certain block forms
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2016-04-02T10:14:05Z Thulsadum: are there use cases for packages, which do not :use :cl?
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2016-04-02T10:17:23Z jackdaniel: Thulsadum: you may construct special dsl for user which allows only certain functions
2016-04-02T10:17:36Z jackdaniel: or constructs
2016-04-02T10:18:21Z isoraqathedh: But users can still get to it using cl:, I think.
2016-04-02T10:20:13Z jackdaniel: also you may want to use other package, which shadows many functions in :cl (for instance closer-mop-user)
2016-04-02T10:20:16Z Thulsadum: yep, full qualified references do work
2016-04-02T10:20:49Z jackdaniel: isoraqathedh: I'd put it as an adventage (fallback for experienced users), but yeah, it's not a sandbox
2016-04-02T10:23:57Z Thulsadum: and now a question about style... I've begun a prototype within a single package and now some separatable concerns show up, but having to manualy control exported function is quite anoying. are there some tools/packages to smooth this process?
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2016-04-02T10:24:40Z Thulsadum: i would like to split by concern and reexport them in a main packge.
2016-04-02T10:25:11Z jackdaniel: there is! but I don't remember the name :( I've necountered something like that recently
2016-04-02T10:25:55Z Thulsadum: but exporting a structure with it's functions seems to be a pain in the bottom, thought this should be easy. :D
2016-04-02T10:29:17Z Thulsadum: https://github.com/takagi/cl-reexport <-- looks good
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2016-04-02T10:29:40Z Thulsadum: does slime have some neat utilities for this?
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2016-04-02T10:46:26Z XachX: Thulsadum: it can help not to think about exporting "a structure", but of exporting the names of functions, which happen to be implemented by a defstruct form. Think about the external symbols first and the implementation second.
2016-04-02T10:47:39Z XachX: Slime has an export defun at point.
2016-04-02T10:47:52Z XachX: Adds to the defpackage form.
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2016-04-02T11:24:14Z Thulsadum: XachX: yeah, i'm aware of thinking about the interface instead of the implementation and i thought about it in my previous statement. i wasn't explicit about it. but a defstruct involves alot of invisible functions. so it would be nice to have some magic for exporting the accessors as well.
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2016-04-02T12:25:25Z H4ns: Thulsadum: writing a macro that does it is rather easy.  a lot of people that i respect don't use defstruct at all, though, and favor clos even though (or because) it requires to be explicit about everything.
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2016-04-02T12:35:09Z _death: sometimes I start with a defstruct, then find I need to redefine, or to use generic functions for the accessors.. so I switch to defclass
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2016-04-02T12:43:20Z malice: Hello! I want to use asdf to manage my project - I want to have XYZ-server as one subsystem and XYZ-client as another one, plus XYZ as a whole. I've seen something like this in other code - where can I find some tutorial that'll help me set this up?
2016-04-02T12:44:55Z DeadTrickster: can format iterate over two lists in parallel? smth like (format t ? '(one two three) '(1 2 3)) -> one=1, two=2, three=3
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2016-04-02T12:47:09Z _death: malice: http://xach.livejournal.com/278047.html
2016-04-02T12:48:32Z _death: DeadTrickster: no.. and why would you want to use format's cryptic language to do that anyway
2016-04-02T12:49:19Z malice: _death: I don't see anything wrong with using format's cryptic language
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2016-04-02T12:56:44Z _death: what you can do is make a list of lists and use nesting.. (format t "~{~{~(~A~)=~A~}~^, ~}~%" (mapcar #'list '(one two three) '(1 2 3)))
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2016-04-02T12:59:07Z _death: I'd likely use my OUT thingy.. (outs (:s (mapcar (lambda (name value) (outs (:dc name) "=" value)) names values) :separator ", ")) .. though if I wanted to avoid garbage a plain w-o-t-s/mapc/write could do
2016-04-02T13:04:01Z malice: _death: the article isn't enough, unfortunately
2016-04-02T13:06:07Z DeadTrickster: yea I wanted to do this without additional cosing
2016-04-02T13:06:12Z DeadTrickster: consing
2016-04-02T13:07:38Z H4ns: DeadTrickster: why are you afraid of the consing?
2016-04-02T13:08:20Z DeadTrickster: this is instrumentation code that can be executed in tight loops. don't want unnecessary side effects
2016-04-02T13:08:55Z DeadTrickster: well not format of course :-) but this whole library
2016-04-02T13:09:03Z DeadTrickster: so I want to stay as low as possible
2016-04-02T13:09:24Z H4ns: good reason, but maybe also a reason to avoid format in the hot path and perform the formatting in a separate thread/function/whatever
2016-04-02T13:09:54Z DeadTrickster: sure I wasn't precise. hopefully I clarified this further
2016-04-02T13:10:33Z DeadTrickster: this indeed will be executed in separate thread. format is used as part of export routine
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2016-04-02T13:12:52Z dwchandler: ahh it's a wonderful day
2016-04-02T13:13:35Z DeadTrickster: no it's not
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2016-04-02T15:15:58Z malice: Do you guys have some usocket tutorial?
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2016-04-02T16:01:29Z drewc: malice: What I did was view "BSD Sockets" tutorials, and translate (in my head) the source from C to CL. If you know CL and C, that is trivial. If you don't know either, no so much.
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2016-04-02T16:05:57Z jackdaniel: hm, anyone has experiene with cl-nlp?
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2016-04-02T16:06:15Z jackdaniel: experience°
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2016-04-02T16:25:07Z ralt: hm
2016-04-02T16:25:18Z ralt: what's the name of #1 to look it up in clhs?
2016-04-02T16:25:24Z ralt: (or #1#)
2016-04-02T16:26:21Z ralt: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm I don't see it mentioned here
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2016-04-02T16:28:17Z drewc: ralt: "#              reference to = label" <--- 11 lines into the figure
2016-04-02T16:28:17Z jackdaniel: ralt: #              reference to = label
2016-04-02T16:28:21Z jackdaniel: sharpsign sharpsign
2016-04-02T16:28:25Z isoraqathedh: Sharpsign-sharpign, I think.
2016-04-02T16:28:28Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-04-02T16:28:37Z isoraqathedh: So 2.4.8.16
2016-04-02T16:28:48Z isoraqathedh: Look, that's all powers of two.
2016-04-02T16:28:50Z drewc: ralt: and the third paragraph says "Certain # constructs allow an unsigned decimal number to appear between the # and the character. "
2016-04-02T16:29:29Z ralt: well
2016-04-02T16:29:30Z loke`: Good evening Lisp!
2016-04-02T16:29:31Z ralt: boo me
2016-04-02T16:29:34Z ralt: thanks everyone
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2016-04-02T16:33:59Z DeadTrickster: what's NaN in lisp?
2016-04-02T16:34:12Z DeadTrickster: also +/-inf
2016-04-02T16:34:23Z DeadTrickster: loke`, hey
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2016-04-02T16:35:17Z loke`: Hello DeadTrickster
2016-04-02T16:35:54Z loke`: DeadTrickster: I wanted to take a look at your cl-bunny
2016-04-02T16:35:58Z loke`: But I was unable to compile it
2016-04-02T16:36:03Z DeadTrickster: lol
2016-04-02T16:36:14Z DeadTrickster: it's in QL though )
2016-04-02T16:36:23Z DeadTrickster: maybe I messed up something as usual
2016-04-02T16:36:27Z loke`: Yes, now it loads. Strange
2016-04-02T16:36:35Z loke`: Hmm, perhaps I failed when I was at work
2016-04-02T16:36:43Z loke`: Oh no wait. It failed on OSX
2016-04-02T16:36:54Z DeadTrickster: yes that's possibly
2016-04-02T16:37:03Z DeadTrickster: and actually expected. PR is welcome )
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2016-04-02T16:37:10Z loke`: DeadTrickster: So, should I migrate my code from cl-rabbit to cl-bunny?
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2016-04-02T16:37:44Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Also, you should let the rabbitmq guys know about your project so they can add it to their "client" page.
2016-04-02T16:38:13Z DeadTrickster: loke`, tough question. It does what I want (namely shared connections)
2016-04-02T16:38:23Z DeadTrickster: it works on-site for three month
2016-04-02T16:38:41Z DeadTrickster: and processed hundreds of thousands messages
2016-04-02T16:38:49Z DeadTrickster: but it has bugs 100%
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2016-04-02T16:38:59Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Hmm, you never got cl-rabbit-async working? I think you were messing around with it before (it does the shared connection stuff)
2016-04-02T16:39:51Z DeadTrickster: loke`, yea the difference is if I'm correct in cl-bunny connection is like gen_server
2016-04-02T16:40:06Z DeadTrickster: but in cl-rabbit-async you use locks
2016-04-02T16:40:09Z loke`: What do you mean by gen_server?
2016-04-02T16:40:26Z DeadTrickster: hmm I saw you on #erlang so I used this term, sorry
2016-04-02T16:40:36Z loke`: DeadTrickster: I have just barely begun :-
2016-04-02T16:40:39Z DeadTrickster: it's like self-contained server
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2016-04-02T16:40:50Z DeadTrickster: connection-as-a-service if you'd like
2016-04-02T16:40:53Z loke`: Oh, one of those
2016-04-02T16:41:01Z DeadTrickster: )
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2016-04-02T16:41:25Z DeadTrickster: I found this design particularly good for webservers
2016-04-02T16:41:41Z DeadTrickster: You have one connection shared across all your app
2016-04-02T16:41:51Z DeadTrickster: seamless thread-safety
2016-04-02T16:42:01Z DeadTrickster: and thanks to channels - isolation
2016-04-02T16:42:36Z DeadTrickster: as for cl-rabbit, first cl-bunny version was based on it. however it was endless pain to deploy thanks to ffi
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2016-04-02T16:42:43Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Actually, no. With cl-rabbit-async I have many connections. You set the number of channels per connection, and if it's more than that it opens another one. It has one thread per connection.
2016-04-02T16:43:10Z DeadTrickster: also no proper async/heartbeat support thanks to librabbitmq
2016-04-02T16:43:25Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Yeah. I wouldn't mind getting rid of the C library dependency, so I'm considering playing with yours.
2016-04-02T16:43:47Z DeadTrickster: I will help If I can
2016-04-02T16:44:05Z DeadTrickster: also since it's native we can play games
2016-04-02T16:44:15Z DeadTrickster: I have this crazy load-balancing idea
2016-04-02T16:44:16Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Well, later versions of rabbitmq-c has better heartbeat support, and with cl-rabbit-async it handles it decently. I did have to rely on some implementation details in the C lib though.
2016-04-02T16:44:37Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Any performance considerations re. cl-bunny?
2016-04-02T16:44:57Z DeadTrickster: well tens of thousands message per seconds
2016-04-02T16:45:01Z DeadTrickster: both publish/consume
2016-04-02T16:45:05Z DeadTrickster: messages
2016-04-02T16:45:31Z loke`: OK, so good enough.
2016-04-02T16:46:14Z DeadTrickster: suppose we have two channels. One writes huge chunks constantly and the other one sends you important notification
2016-04-02T16:46:29Z DeadTrickster: thanks to the single io loop there can be delay for the second channel
2016-04-02T16:46:50Z DeadTrickster: if channel priorities introduced this can be solved
2016-04-02T16:46:57Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Can you force a separate io loop for a connection?
2016-04-02T16:47:03Z DeadTrickster: yes
2016-04-02T16:47:31Z loke`: All message sending in Potato is handled by dedicated connections that are pooled. Thus they will never interfere with the message reception.
2016-04-02T16:48:49Z DeadTrickster: you can have two connection if you'd like one for publishing and one for receiving
2016-04-02T16:49:11Z DeadTrickster: why I always forgetting [s] today?
2016-04-02T16:49:12Z loke`: DeadTrickster: Hmm, I'm playing with it right now, but I have a problem.
2016-04-02T16:49:21Z loke`: DeadTrickster: It seems like queue.unbind doesn't, well, unbind.
2016-04-02T16:49:27Z DeadTrickster: lol
2016-04-02T16:49:56Z DeadTrickster: https://github.com/cl-rabbit/cl-bunny/blob/master/t/integration/amqp/queue.unbind.lisp
2016-04-02T16:50:04Z DeadTrickster: I even have test just for this
2016-04-02T16:50:30Z DeadTrickster: can you run tests (prove:run :cl-bunny.test)
2016-04-02T16:51:28Z loke`: Hmm... component :cl-bunny-tests not found
2016-04-02T16:51:54Z loke`: ah
2016-04-02T16:51:57Z loke`: :cl-bunny.test
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2016-04-02T16:52:44Z loke`: Here's my test case by the way, did I do something wrong?
2016-04-02T16:52:48Z loke`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312204
2016-04-02T16:53:40Z DeadTrickster: dunno looks good
2016-04-02T16:53:55Z loke`: Oh, and do you know what part of Prove has broken terminal handling? Running in an Emacs terminal should set TERM to "dummy" or "emacs" or something, but it still tries to display vt102 codes.
2016-04-02T16:54:17Z DeadTrickster: ouch
2016-04-02T16:54:21Z loke`: DeadTrickster: I run that, and then go into the rabbitmq admin tool and check the queue. The exchange is bound.
2016-04-02T16:54:29Z DeadTrickster: ok let me check
2016-04-02T16:54:51Z DeadTrickster: btw there is bunny package nickname - saves you 3 chars each time!
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2016-04-02T16:56:46Z DeadTrickster:  :routing-key (bunny:queue-name q)
2016-04-02T16:56:55Z DeadTrickster: looks like there is not shortcut yet
2016-04-02T16:58:21Z loke`: OK, thanks. I get it now
2016-04-02T16:58:50Z DeadTrickster: yeah that's what I'm talking about
2016-04-02T16:59:00Z DeadTrickster: it works but has its rough edges
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2016-04-02T16:59:34Z loke`: There seems to be some extra information carried in the exchange and queue objects?
2016-04-02T16:59:50Z DeadTrickster: what you mean extra?
2016-04-02T16:59:52Z loke`: Some things changed when I used strings instead of the objects.
2016-04-02T17:00:20Z DeadTrickster: hm not sure I understand you, sorry (
2016-04-02T17:00:28Z loke`: Wait. Writing a test case
2016-04-02T17:01:51Z DeadTrickster: that's why I started cl-hrac. To be able to independently check thinks like unbound queue
2016-04-02T17:02:33Z loke`: OK, look at this code:
2016-04-02T17:02:35Z loke`: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312205
2016-04-02T17:03:04Z loke`: If you run it, ex1 will be bound with routing key "bunny-test-q1", which ex2 will be bound with the blank string
2016-04-02T17:04:07Z DeadTrickster: that's what rabbit admin shows?
2016-04-02T17:04:18Z loke`: Yes
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2016-04-02T17:05:45Z DeadTrickster: yea I remember this
2016-04-02T17:05:52Z loke`: WHy is it?
2016-04-02T17:06:03Z DeadTrickster: that is because when you provide exchange as string there no way cl-bunny can figure out exchange type
2016-04-02T17:06:13Z DeadTrickster: hence no default routing-key
2016-04-02T17:06:23Z DeadTrickster: dunno maybe that's too strict
2016-04-02T17:06:33Z loke`: Hmm, so perhaps cl-bunny is being a little too clever?
2016-04-02T17:07:01Z loke`: It'd be less surprising if it didn't do that.
2016-04-02T17:07:06Z DeadTrickster: well when you use exchange object it can call exchange-type on
2016-04-02T17:07:08Z DeadTrickster: it
2016-04-02T17:07:22Z loke`: Right, if that's what you really want.
2016-04-02T17:07:39Z loke`: I think automagically setting the routing-key is more confusing that useful.
2016-04-02T17:07:42Z loke`: than
2016-04-02T17:08:29Z DeadTrickster: this only works if you don't provide it explicitly, however it probably should do this even for the strings
2016-04-02T17:09:22Z loke`: I was testing with strings, because that's how I specify exchanges and queues everywhere in the Potato code, so I wanted to make sure it worked :-)
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2016-04-02T17:10:12Z DeadTrickster: it works
2016-04-02T17:10:20Z DeadTrickster: just throw explicit :routing-key
2016-04-02T17:11:29Z loke`: Good.
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2016-04-02T17:29:40Z DeadTrickster: so ieee 754 float simply ignored in CL
2016-04-02T17:29:55Z DeadTrickster: the most powerful language in the whouurld
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2016-04-02T17:34:26Z DeadTrickster: or not?
2016-04-02T17:34:28Z DeadTrickster: who knows
2016-04-02T17:34:30Z aeth: Arc is the most powerful language in the world now, didn't you read pg's later posts? I'm not aware of anyone else who has tried to define a "most powerful language".
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2016-04-02T17:35:33Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: ecl supports these, not sure about the others
2016-04-02T17:35:39Z DeadTrickster: well at least he has millions $$$ and tons of twitter followers so he must be right
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2016-04-02T17:38:11Z aeth: I just can't wait until language power can be quantified so someone can finally make a Lisp with a power level that's over 9000.
2016-04-02T17:38:36Z aeth: That would have been a perfect April Fool's.
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2016-04-02T17:39:29Z jackdaniel: there is lisp 9000
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2016-04-02T17:46:00Z DeadTrickster: (* * *)
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2016-04-02T17:47:21Z DeadTrickster: this works too
2016-04-02T17:47:22Z DeadTrickster: (* ^ *)
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2016-04-02T17:56:36Z emaczen: I'm running both SBCL and CCL, the modeline shows that a file is using SBCL rather than CCL -- how do I switch it to CCL?
2016-04-02T17:58:20Z fchurca: have you tried changing inferior-lisp-program?
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2016-04-02T17:59:02Z fchurca: (setq inferior-lisp-program "/here/goes/the/path/to/your/ccl") ; or something of the sort
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2016-04-02T17:59:30Z fchurca: emaczen:
2016-04-02T17:59:50Z Bike: emaczen: M-x slime-next-connection
2016-04-02T18:00:02Z Bike: or slime-cycle-connections on an old slime
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2016-04-02T18:05:20Z fchurca: does Xach happen to be on now-ish?
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2016-04-02T18:06:56Z fchurca: i have delved into the depths of quicklisp/setup.lisp and have found it indeed tries to update asdf, but to 2.26
2016-04-02T18:07:29Z fchurca: i could take a shot at bumping that to 3.1
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2016-04-02T18:07:53Z Bike: doesn't it try to update to the earliest version that quicklisp can use?
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2016-04-02T18:08:18Z fchurca: that version seems to be 2.26, at least on my install
2016-04-02T18:08:25Z Bike: right.
2016-04-02T18:08:38Z Bike: so i mean, 3.1 isn't that version.
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2016-04-02T18:09:13Z fchurca: then again, the base quicklisp dir isn't versioned, so that already may have been corrected
2016-04-02T18:09:59Z fchurca: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/blob/master/setup.lisp#L26
2016-04-02T18:10:10Z fchurca: (defvar *required-asdf-version* "2.26")
2016-04-02T18:10:17Z fchurca: here it is
2016-04-02T18:11:18Z fchurca: and the bundled asdf.lisp is indeed an asdf2.26 from twoish years ago
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2016-04-02T18:13:41Z fchurca: indeed, quicklisp itself seems to work with asdf2.26, but some recent projects don't, and asdf3.1 seems to be being adopted as the new defacto asdf
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2016-04-02T18:21:50Z XachX: fchurca: what implementation do you use?
2016-04-02T18:22:20Z fchurca: an old sbcl-debian
2016-04-02T18:22:43Z XachX: Why?
2016-04-02T18:23:02Z fchurca: i have patched my quicklisp-client to include asdf3.1.7 if asdf-version < 3.1
2016-04-02T18:23:40Z fchurca: because it's the one in the lmde repos. yes, i know, i should be more responsible and use roswell to manage it and acquire a newer sbcl
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2016-04-02T18:23:49Z XachX: What is lede?
2016-04-02T18:23:59Z fchurca: linux mint debian edition
2016-04-02T18:24:00Z XachX: sorry, "lmde"
2016-04-02T18:24:20Z XachX: aggro autocorrect in this browser vexes me
2016-04-02T18:24:35Z XachX: fchurca: you could put asdf checkout in local-projects too, I think.
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2016-04-02T18:25:03Z fchurca: i have tried that, i just wanted to streamline it a bit more
2016-04-02T18:25:46Z fchurca: as a mechanism for updating asdf already exists
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2016-04-02T18:26:10Z fchurca: or are you considering deprecating it instead?
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2016-04-02T18:30:08Z fchurca: so, should i commit it and make a pull request or should i shove asdf back into local-projects?
2016-04-02T18:32:04Z fchurca: (or, more responsibly, let roswell manage my sbcl versions)
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2016-04-02T18:33:18Z sigjuice: is there a way to do small self-contained programs in a single .lisp file?
2016-04-02T18:33:31Z fchurca: sigjuice: have you tried roswell?
2016-04-02T18:33:54Z Bike: sigjuice: write your program, LOAD it?
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2016-04-02T18:35:34Z fchurca: sigjuice: https://github.com/roswell/roswell#scripting-with-roswell
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2016-04-02T18:38:17Z Thulsadum: H4ns: I'm uncertain about clos... but i'll evaluate the possibilities. lisp's generic functions provide some nice possibilities though.
2016-04-02T18:41:05Z fchurca: sigjuice: were you looking for something along those lines?
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2016-04-02T18:46:13Z XachX: fchurca: no pull request needed
2016-04-02T18:47:22Z fchurca: in which sense? is asdf3.1 coming to quicklisp?
2016-04-02T18:47:38Z XachX: fchurca: I'm going to update it sometime. It's on my radar.
2016-04-02T18:48:16Z sigjuice: thanks fchurca, bike
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2016-04-02T18:48:59Z fchurca: let us rejoice!
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2016-04-02T19:13:35Z ryoshu:  /win 22
2016-04-02T19:13:39Z ryoshu:  /win 22
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2016-04-02T19:29:23Z phoe_krk_: ,eval (/win 22)
2016-04-02T19:29:28Z DeadTrickster: wut?
2016-04-02T19:29:31Z phoe_krk_: oh wait, wrong channel
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2016-04-02T23:06:11Z carl`: anyone know a LISP parser generator with an already made C grammar?
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2016-04-02T23:08:12Z Bike: no, but you could probably throw in http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~mckeeman/cs48/references/c.html or something fairly easily?
2016-04-02T23:08:39Z Bike: oh, and there's that lexer hack dealie...
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2016-04-02T23:10:57Z carl`: I'll just translate that then. would cl-yacc probably be the best to start with?
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2016-04-03T00:05:41Z aeth: pjb: For some reason, some of the tests in your pull request failed. I think that's because something along the way ate some of the lambdas. I hope I reconstructed them properly. https://gitlab.com/mbabich/trivial-left-pad/blob/master/t/test-left-pad.lisp
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2016-04-03T02:08:57Z mejja: some reasone ==pjb  can't hack his way out of a paper bag on a rainy day..
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2016-04-03T02:21:33Z aeth: What's the difference between a bytecode and a compiler IR? What stops someone from e.g. compiling clisp's bytecode?
2016-04-03T02:25:05Z H4ns: not being an expert in the field, i'd say that a compiler ir is structured so that it can easily be interpreted, whereas a vm bytecode is targeted towards efficient execution.  nothing stops you from writing a compiler for byte code, but it may be harder than generating code from a compiler ir because the latter should have more contextual information that helps generating efficient machine code.
2016-04-03T02:26:02Z aeth: Thanks, I guessed as much.
2016-04-03T02:26:21Z White_Flame: a compiler IR often doesn't have a byte-layout specification, but moreso is defined in language data structures
2016-04-03T02:26:30Z aeth: "Efficiency" seems to be the answer for a lot of "why" in programming
2016-04-03T02:26:30Z White_Flame: whereas bytecode is a specific serialization format
2016-04-03T02:26:57Z White_Flame: (though there are IRs with defined serialized formats, so YMMV)
2016-04-03T02:27:31Z aeth: I think sometimes a bytecode approach has later been converted into compiled (jit or aot)
2016-04-03T02:27:56Z H4ns: the jvm being a prominent example for that.
2016-04-03T02:28:03Z aeth: I think CLI too?
2016-04-03T02:28:10Z White_Flame: nah, it's very common to interpret bytecode straight, but certainly for performance you'd want to compile to native, even if naively
2016-04-03T02:28:11Z aeth: *CIL
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2016-04-03T02:28:58Z White_Flame: bytecode is also more compact in space than objects with full-sized pointers and such
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2016-04-03T02:36:14Z aeth: I'm considering adding "design a JVM/CIL clone, but for Lisp" to my "one day" list. Obviously it won't be efficient and sbcl will probably be better for... uh, everything.
2016-04-03T02:36:43Z White_Flame: my "one day" list includes porting LLVM to CL
2016-04-03T02:37:00Z aeth: I like the concept of a language-neutral runtime, but the language-neutral runtimes aren't actually language-neutral :p
2016-04-03T02:37:23Z aeth: For my language-neutral runtime I'd probably just try to get SICL to run and r7rs-small Scheme to run.
2016-04-03T02:37:25Z White_Flame: yeah, like the webasm vs lisp tag bits argument from a bit back
2016-04-03T02:37:43Z aeth: yeah, wasm too, I forgot about it
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2016-04-03T02:57:00Z TheEthicalEgoist: does anyone use mcclim?
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2016-04-03T03:17:43Z jsgrant: TheEthicalEgoist: beach isn't here, but he'd probably be the guy to ask.
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2016-04-03T03:38:48Z TheEthicalEgoist: thanks
2016-04-03T03:38:57Z mejja: 50 years ago: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/bbnlisp/BBN-LISP-System_Feb1966.pdf
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2016-04-03T03:42:37Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-04-03T03:42:59Z beach: TheEthicalEgoist: There are a few people using McCLIM.  Why do you ask?
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2016-04-03T03:51:22Z TheEthicalEgoist: I've gotten clim-listener working. trying to figure what else I can get to work. but alot about clim/mcclim seems to not be up to date.
2016-04-03T03:51:58Z beach: I am working on it, but I am the only one maintaining it at the moment, so it will take some time.
2016-04-03T03:52:46Z beach: You may need to pick it up from my GitHub repository.  That is also where you can report issues.
2016-04-03T03:56:13Z TheEthicalEgoist: cool
2016-04-03T03:56:42Z beach: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM
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2016-04-03T05:05:53Z White_Flame: mejja:  ew, m-expressions! ;)
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2016-04-03T06:32:34Z beach: Hmm, so far no answer from Frederic Jolliton about the maintenance of CL-VECTORS.
2016-04-03T06:32:36Z beach: :(
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2016-04-03T07:00:29Z beach: moore33: How is writing documentation going?
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2016-04-03T07:09:55Z moore33: beach: It's going. If you're willing to look at the raw version, you can check out the current state of git@github.com:timoore/lpsg.git . I haven't yet used codex to make pretty web pages.
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2016-04-03T07:10:32Z beach: OK.
2016-04-03T07:10:53Z moore33: I'm finding that there's a lot to document!
2016-04-03T07:12:43Z moore33: Heading out for a run; last training before the Marathon next weekend...
2016-04-03T07:12:54Z beach: Is it the `doc' or the `docs' directory one should read?
2016-04-03T07:13:06Z beach: Ah, OK.  Have a good time.
2016-04-03T07:13:19Z moore33: beach: docs is where the current work is happening.
2016-04-03T07:13:26Z beach: Thanks.
2016-04-03T07:13:35Z moore33: doc has some older stuff, although the "roadmap" is useful. I guess.
2016-04-03T07:15:29Z moore33: bbl
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2016-04-03T08:54:35Z DeadTrickster: loke, hows it going?
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2016-04-03T09:21:48Z Heranort: Hi! I want to ask a question that could macro be passed like functions in mapcar?
2016-04-03T09:22:11Z ggole__: Heranort: not in Common Lisp
2016-04-03T09:23:04Z Heranort: ggole__: then how can i apply a macro to all of the elements in a list?
2016-04-03T09:23:16Z ggole__: You don't
2016-04-03T09:23:34Z ggole__: You can try to solve your problem some other way, though
2016-04-03T09:24:27Z ggole__: Heranort: what are you trying to achieve with the macro?
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2016-04-03T09:24:51Z Heranort: ggole__: in fact i want to make lazy-evaluation to each of the elements of a tree, and i want to do something like (mapcar #'lazy the-list), however i have to define lazy as a macro.
2016-04-03T09:25:58Z Heranort: the "lazy" is like (defmacro lazy (&body body) `(lambda () ,@body))
2016-04-03T09:26:53Z ggole__: Right, that won't be sufficient.
2016-04-03T09:27:41Z ggole__: Really for this to be seamless you need to change the definition of mapcar (and various other primitives)
2016-04-03T09:28:19Z Heranort: ggole__: perhaps loop would work.
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2016-04-03T09:29:02Z ggole__: If you can get to the expressions and suspend them before they are evaluated, then it should work
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2016-04-03T09:29:26Z DeadTrickster: well [symbol-function 'defmacro] works isn't it?
2016-04-03T09:29:33Z Heranort: ggole: are there any complaints among lispers that CL doesn't make macros as first-class?
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2016-04-03T09:29:38Z DeadTrickster: then you'll have to figure out calling convention
2016-04-03T09:29:42Z DeadTrickster: and that is it
2016-04-03T09:30:24Z Heranort: DeadTrickster: will the symbol-function change the evaluation?
2016-04-03T09:30:40Z ggole: Heranort: John Shutt argues for a language with first-class macros
2016-04-03T09:30:49Z DeadTrickster: I don't understand your question, sorry
2016-04-03T09:30:49Z ggole: I don't think his viewpoint is very widely held, though.
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2016-04-03T09:31:39Z Heranort: DeadTrickster: all i want to do is to make the arguments get evaluated later
2016-04-03T09:31:47Z Heranort: DeadTrickster: not the moment it is passed.
2016-04-03T09:32:00Z DeadTrickster: wrap in lambda
2016-04-03T09:32:29Z Heranort: DeadTrickster: yeah, i defined that as the name "lazy" as macro
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2016-04-03T09:33:15Z Heranort: DeadTrickster: and i want to make all of the elements in a list to be wrapped in that macro, so i tried mapcar
2016-04-03T09:33:36Z Heranort: DeadTrickster: and failed because mapcar only works with functions.
2016-04-03T09:34:09Z ggole: (By the way, wrapping in lambda is not a great idea - you'll end up with every force operation doing a potentially arbitrary amount of work. Rewriting an evaluated suspension to become a value is a better method.)
2016-04-03T09:34:28Z ggole: You can solve that one once you have your syntactic abstraction figured out, though.
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2016-04-03T09:35:42Z beach: Heranort: The people who designed Common Lisp were very smart.  They carefully avoided functionality that might make it hard for a compiler to generate fast code.  Macros were designed as a compile-time (or rather macro-expansion-time) functionality so that the use of macros would not penalize execution time.
2016-04-03T09:35:43Z beach: What you are trying to do is basically contrary to this basic idea.
2016-04-03T09:37:42Z beach: Heranort: That does not mean it is impossible to do what you want.  Just that you are "on your own" without support from the language.
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2016-04-03T09:38:54Z Heranort: beach: got that! i perhaps should try to do it another way
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2016-04-03T09:40:22Z ggole: The problem here is (or seems to be) that you have a list of values
2016-04-03T09:40:33Z ggole: You can't proceed from there to a list of suspended calculation of those values.
2016-04-03T09:41:47Z Heranort: ggole: i want to achieve the lazy-evaluation similar to the one instructed in SICP, but appears as a tree.
2016-04-03T09:42:07Z ggole: You mean, lazy streams?
2016-04-03T09:42:17Z Heranort: ggole: sure!
2016-04-03T09:42:18Z ggole: You can do that
2016-04-03T09:42:57Z ggole: You are probably going to want to introduce your own data structure though, rather than using conses
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2016-04-03T09:43:12Z Heranort: ggole: but the tree may have many branches and i want to make-stream to all of the branches.
2016-04-03T09:43:20Z Heranort: ggole: sure i am.
2016-04-03T09:44:36Z H4ns: how do you traverse a tree lazily?  you do a breadth-first traversal and somehow remember the children on each level?
2016-04-03T09:45:47Z Heranort: H4ns: i want the first element to be exposed and other branches to be lazy, like  '(1 <closure> <closure> <closure>)
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2016-04-03T09:46:28Z Heranort: H4ns: and when traversing, i could check the exposed value and traverse each closure.
2016-04-03T09:46:48Z H4ns: fair enough, if that is what you need.
2016-04-03T09:47:48Z Heranort: well i managed to solve my problem using loop.
2016-04-03T09:48:01Z Heranort: thanks for everyone helped me. :)
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2016-04-03T11:39:17Z ejbs: Xach: Hey! Is the Quicklisp fundraiser now online? Could you make a post on /r/lisp for awareness?
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2016-04-03T11:48:45Z cods: beach: hi
2016-04-03T11:49:13Z cods: (I'm Frederic Jolliton)
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2016-04-03T11:50:01Z cods: I'm actually looking for someone to maintain cl-vectors.
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2016-04-03T12:07:34Z vydd: cods: hmmm. if you don't find anyone, I might want to do that. haven't used your library, but it looks like it could be useful for my project here: https://github.com/vydd/sketch ... now, if you find someone who'd work on cl-vectors exclusively, they would be a much better choice.
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2016-04-03T12:08:40Z vydd: cods: I'll tinker with it now, and would like to pick your brain about it during next week if possible
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2016-04-03T12:24:15Z cods: vydd: I don't know yet what I will do exactly. I'm suggested to transfer ownership to sharplispers. But I've not followed the Common Lisp community for years, so I don't get the whole picture.
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2016-04-03T12:29:27Z vydd: cods: that's a good idea. whatever you decide, it's great that you're actively looking for a maintainer and not just abandoning the project, thanks
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2016-04-03T12:43:29Z beach: cods: Hello. Sorry I was away.
2016-04-03T12:43:52Z flip214: does anyone know about github.com/sionescu/fiveam ? seems unmaintained.
2016-04-03T12:44:30Z jackdaniel: is it broken?
2016-04-03T12:45:06Z flip214: no.
2016-04-03T12:45:18Z flip214: but pull requests are open, some for nearly 3 years.
2016-04-03T12:45:37Z jackdaniel: fe[nl]ix: ↑
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2016-04-03T12:46:27Z beach: vydd: Keep me up to date.  If you decide to maintain it, that's great.  Otherwise I'll talk to "sharplispers" about it.
2016-04-03T12:46:29Z jackdaniel: hm, last commit from November, seems maintained. Maybe PR's are somewhat faulty
2016-04-03T12:47:08Z flip214: sionescu was active in iolib on Feb 26th, too.
2016-04-03T12:47:51Z flip214: but the travis jobs fail (on some implementations) too, but the detail page won't show any details ....
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2016-04-03T12:48:07Z flip214: eg. https://travis-ci.org/sionescu/fiveam/jobs/120396047 just has a few moving dots for me, where the details should be shown.
2016-04-03T12:48:17Z vydd: beach: ok, will ping you about it in a couple of days
2016-04-03T12:48:53Z beach: Excellent!
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2016-04-03T13:03:37Z mood: flip214: You are probably blocking some JS
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2016-04-03T13:28:10Z DeadTrickster: can I print doubles like this: -1.23e-45 using format?
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2016-04-03T13:31:51Z ejbs: DeadTrickster: Try ~E
2016-04-03T13:33:41Z DeadTrickster: the first question: is -1.23e-45 equals to -1.23d-45
2016-04-03T13:33:51Z DeadTrickster: god all this fucked up on CL
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2016-04-03T13:34:41Z ejbs: DeadTrickster: I asssume so :)
2016-04-03T13:34:53Z ejbs: DeadTrickster: Why do you need to output doubles like that?
2016-04-03T13:35:47Z DeadTrickster: because !surprise! I have to connect to outside world
2016-04-03T13:36:19Z DeadTrickster: hell there is even no +/-inf, NaN,
2016-04-03T13:36:25Z pjb: DeadTrickster: then you will want to write a parser and a scanner matching the specific syntax of the outside world.
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2016-04-03T13:36:51Z pjb: s/parser/writer/
2016-04-03T13:36:57Z pjb: DeadTrickster: I'm not joking, you definitely need to write your own writer and scanner for eg. java floats.
2016-04-03T13:37:02Z pjb: or C floats.
2016-04-03T13:37:13Z pjb: etc.
2016-04-03T13:37:14Z DeadTrickster: I only need to write this
2016-04-03T13:37:16Z pjb: They're all different.
2016-04-03T13:37:43Z pjb: Of course, you can cheat, use format, and post-process it to make it match the expectations of the outside world, or vice versa.
2016-04-03T13:38:08Z DeadTrickster: All my calculations have to use double-floats and use scientific notation for output
2016-04-03T13:38:36Z DeadTrickster: (format t "~E" -1.23d-45) give me -1.23d-45
2016-04-03T13:38:38Z pjb: Yeah, CL doesn't implement "scientific notation" whatever it is.
2016-04-03T13:38:44Z DeadTrickster: I'll just replace d with e
2016-04-03T13:38:55Z ejbs: I'd do that too, just make a few test cases
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2016-04-03T13:39:46Z DeadTrickster: the problem (from the surface) is that CL tries to infer float type from exponent marker
2016-04-03T13:40:00Z DeadTrickster: while all other languages I know just use e
2016-04-03T13:40:10Z pjb: Not always.
2016-04-03T13:40:43Z DeadTrickster: not always what?
2016-04-03T13:41:02Z ejbs: SBCL has SB-EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-NEGATIVE-INFINITY and SB-EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY apparently
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2016-04-03T13:41:33Z ejbs: But they won't help you (probably)
2016-04-03T13:41:41Z DeadTrickster: no they won't
2016-04-03T13:42:01Z pjb: Have fun: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Literals/Floating_point
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2016-04-03T13:42:46Z DeadTrickster: (* 2 most-positive-double-float) throw floating point overflow
2016-04-03T13:42:50Z ejbs: DeadTrickster: https://github.com/marijnh/ieee-floats
2016-04-03T13:42:59Z DeadTrickster: while say javascript returns infinity
2016-04-03T13:43:05Z DeadTrickster: as well as go
2016-04-03T13:43:19Z DeadTrickster: or yep others who follow ieee standard
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2016-04-03T13:43:58Z pjb: File (interchange) formats must be specified.  Using the "native" language specific print and read procedure is just like using binary format (even worse, given that there are not that many different binary formats even for floating point numbers).
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2016-04-03T13:50:13Z DeadTrickster: here is what the spec says: represented as required by the Go strconv package
2016-04-03T13:50:24Z DeadTrickster: how do you like that?
2016-04-03T13:50:25Z ejbs: Well that sucks
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2016-04-03T13:53:38Z scymtym: DeadTrickster: keeping in mind pjb's general advice, (let ((*read-default-float-format* 'double-float)) (format t "~E" 1.23d-45)) may be a shortcut
2016-04-03T13:54:47Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, yea, read it here: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/v_rd_def.htm
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2016-04-03T13:55:45Z DeadTrickster: now I have to catch this:  (* 2 most-positive-double-float) and transform it to :+Infinity
2016-04-03T13:58:11Z ejbs: That shouldn't be too hard with restarts
2016-04-03T13:58:32Z pjb: Happily, the Go strconv is specified/documented somewhere…
2016-04-03T13:58:40Z pjb: You might have been less lucky.
2016-04-03T13:58:59Z DeadTrickster: the problem with exponent marker is gone luckily
2016-04-03T13:59:01Z pjb: Also, it's open source, so you can copy/translate the algorithms :-)
2016-04-03T13:59:17Z DeadTrickster: now I left with the +/infinity and NaN
2016-04-03T14:00:28Z pjb: (if you need precise transmission of the value, you may have to do that, given the finickiness of floating point printing and reading).
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2016-04-03T14:02:09Z DeadTrickster: I can encode NIL as NaN i.e. when there is now value
2016-04-03T14:02:13Z DeadTrickster: thats fine.
2016-04-03T14:02:27Z DeadTrickster: probably I can live without infinities too
2016-04-03T14:03:42Z DeadTrickster: why they just not used int64 encoding
2016-04-03T14:03:46Z DeadTrickster: hipsters
2016-04-03T14:04:50Z pjb: There are 2^56 different NAN values. You might want to encode and transmit them correctly.
2016-04-03T14:05:03Z pjb: Some languages use NANs to encode non-float types.
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2016-04-03T14:24:30Z fchurca: i remember building a particle system simulator and occasionally finding particles with -NaN velocities and wondering what the hell had happened
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2016-04-03T14:25:16Z fchurca: and yes, that is negative-NaN
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2016-04-03T14:29:05Z Baggers: Hey folks, is there a way to set swank's communication style when starting slime from emacs?
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2016-04-03T14:30:48Z fchurca: communication style as in https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Communication-style.html ? (nil, :fd-handler, etc)
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2016-04-03T14:31:55Z Baggers: fchurca: yes, that's the one
2016-04-03T14:32:17Z fchurca: i believe setting SWANK:*COMMUNICATION-STYLE* before the listener spawns could do the trick
2016-04-03T14:34:15Z mood: Baggers: Sly has sly-communication-style. I imagine SLIME probably does as well. Try setting that before running slime
2016-04-03T14:34:33Z mood: That is, slime-communication-style, of course
2016-04-03T14:35:45Z Baggers: fchurca: hmm not sure how to make this clean
2016-04-03T14:35:50Z Baggers: mood: ah htat sounds good
2016-04-03T14:37:05Z fchurca: this may help: https://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/slime.pdf page 27
2016-04-03T14:38:59Z Baggers: fchurca: yeah, I've set it fine before when using swank:start-server directly, but would be nice to do from from emacs (as a one off, rather than editing the swank config file)
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2016-04-03T14:51:49Z fchurca: have you tried playing with inferior-lisp-program?
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2016-04-03T14:54:02Z fchurca: maybe you could try to make it (setf swank:*communication-style* ...) after loading .swank.lisp
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2016-04-03T14:54:27Z Baggers: fchurca: Great idea
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2016-04-03T14:56:09Z fchurca: oh
2016-04-03T14:56:35Z fchurca: slime-start appears to have a plethora of interesting arguments
2016-04-03T14:56:43Z fchurca: and slime-start*
2016-04-03T14:57:16Z fchurca: literally, "This function is intended for programmatic use if `slime' is not flexible enough."
2016-04-03T14:57:26Z fchurca: https://github.com/slime/slime/blob/f6e124fff876242de7e91fb8b40f3372be914353/slime.el#L1023
2016-04-03T14:57:36Z Baggers: fchurca: nice, looking at it now
2016-04-03T14:58:04Z Baggers: INIT is a function that should return a string to load and start
2016-04-03T14:58:04Z Baggers:   Swank
2016-04-03T14:58:22Z Baggers: I think we have a winner
2016-04-03T14:59:17Z fchurca: in slimv+vim, obviously, it's just a matter of let'ing g:slimv_swank_cmd as desired
2016-04-03T14:59:27Z fchurca: ;P
2016-04-03T14:59:58Z Baggers: fchurca: nice
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2016-04-03T15:01:20Z fchurca: anyone up for a holy war?
2016-04-03T15:04:06Z edgar-rft: a war with holes?
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2016-04-03T15:04:27Z edgar-rft: sounds like cheese to me
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2016-04-03T15:11:44Z DeadTrickster: sb-ext:double-float-positive-infinity
2016-04-03T15:11:46Z DeadTrickster: yay!!
2016-04-03T15:12:36Z fchurca: edgar-rft: as long as we don't get sent-emmental about it
2016-04-03T15:12:57Z beach: Oh, no!
2016-04-03T15:13:00Z beach: Terrible!
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2016-04-03T15:17:22Z edgar-rft: fchurca: :-)
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2016-04-03T15:18:19Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, #+ecl?
2016-04-03T15:20:52Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: hm?
2016-04-03T15:21:18Z jackdaniel: yes, this is in features, if you ask about the reader
2016-04-03T15:21:23Z DeadTrickster: yea
2016-04-03T15:21:31Z DeadTrickster: I'm exploring float infinities
2016-04-03T15:21:33Z DeadTrickster: found EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY
2016-04-03T15:21:59Z jackdaniel: there is another feature for ieee-floats
2016-04-03T15:22:07Z DeadTrickster: yes I know
2016-04-03T15:22:11Z jackdaniel: #+IEEE-FLOATING-POINT
2016-04-03T15:22:58Z DeadTrickster: or not
2016-04-03T15:23:04Z DeadTrickster: wait what it provides?
2016-04-03T15:23:20Z DeadTrickster: can it portably replace this: #+sbcl sb-ext:double-float-positive-infinity #+ecl EXT:DOUBLE-FLOAT-POSITIVE-INFINITY
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2016-04-03T15:24:21Z jackdaniel: I'd go with #+sbcl … #+ieee-floating-point ext:dou…
2016-04-03T15:24:44Z jackdaniel: ecl may be built without ieee-fp
2016-04-03T15:24:59Z jackdaniel: eventually #+(and ecl ieee…)
2016-04-03T15:25:00Z DeadTrickster: oh wait
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2016-04-03T15:25:23Z DeadTrickster: but package could be named differently
2016-04-03T15:25:27Z DeadTrickster: so #+(and
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2016-04-03T16:13:38Z fchurca: DeadTrickster: Unhandled SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-ERROR in thread #<SB-THREAD:THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {1002AEAF83}>: unmatched close parenthesis
2016-04-03T16:14:02Z DeadTrickster: ?
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2016-04-03T16:17:15Z fchurca: pulling your leg on your last unfinished comment
2016-04-03T16:17:21Z fchurca: >so #+(and
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2016-04-03T16:26:09Z jackdaniel wait's for two closing parens
2016-04-03T16:27:26Z DeadTrickster: ))
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2016-04-03T16:27:39Z jackdaniel: thanks
2016-04-03T16:27:48Z DeadTrickster: that was a smile
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2016-04-03T16:27:53Z DeadTrickster: :P
2016-04-03T16:28:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: A paren you can't match.
2016-04-03T16:28:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: )
2016-04-03T16:28:46Z DeadTrickster: perfect paren
2016-04-03T16:28:58Z DeadTrickster: I have one too
2016-04-03T16:28:59Z DeadTrickster: )
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2016-04-03T17:11:07Z Baggers: fchurca: making a new slime-init-command and passing it to slime-start did the trick, thanks!
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2016-04-03T17:15:02Z fchurca: Baggers: you're welcome!
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2016-04-03T18:05:50Z axion: is there something like remove-duplicates which gets rid of all occurences instead of keeping 1?
2016-04-03T18:06:55Z Bike: so like, it removes everything that appears more than once? i don't think so.
2016-04-03T18:07:04Z axion: yes, hmm, ok.
2016-04-03T18:07:21Z jackdaniel: ekhm, doesn't remove remove something?
2016-04-03T18:07:34Z Bike: it removes something you provide.
2016-04-03T18:07:49Z jackdaniel: ah, if it is present, right
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2016-04-03T18:14:11Z axion: i'm trying to simplify this code. it returns non-NIL if either list has unique elements nor contains a NIL: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312353
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2016-04-03T18:14:37Z axion: indentation got a little messed up :/
2016-04-03T18:15:03Z DeadTrickster: every stops at first nil. do we have each?
2016-04-03T18:17:36Z jackdaniel: hm, isn't set-exclusive-or something you're looking ofr?
2016-04-03T18:17:53Z axion: or rather, it returns NIL if either list contains NIL or the same 2 elements. it is also possible that the mapcar produces a nil to begin with
2016-04-03T18:17:55Z jackdaniel: (but it works only on lists
2016-04-03T18:18:01Z jackdaniel: )
2016-04-03T18:18:29Z jackdaniel: (set-exclusive-or lst lst)
2016-04-03T18:19:00Z jackdaniel: nvm, I'm apparently tired
2016-04-03T18:20:45Z DeadTrickster: like do-seq
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2016-04-03T19:45:54Z lisp063: How would I do a culculation like 2^10000 in lisp? I would appreciate any help thanks
2016-04-03T19:46:25Z pjb: (expt 2 10000)
2016-04-03T19:47:13Z lisp063: Thanks I missed expt...
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2016-04-03T19:47:37Z pjb: lisp063: that said, notice that your RAM probably has less than (* 8 16 (expt 2 20)) #| --> 134217728 |#  bits, so it's quote possible that you have not enough memory to hold the result.
2016-04-03T19:48:06Z aleogen: works for me quite well
2016-04-03T19:48:25Z aleogen: probably going to break something here shortly though
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2016-04-03T19:48:45Z pjb: Then my brain is misfunctionning this evening.
2016-04-03T19:49:36Z lisp063: And how would I get a smaller rounded to less digets awnser?
2016-04-03T19:49:46Z Bike: Rounded? it's an integer.
2016-04-03T19:49:56Z aleogen: add .1 to 10000
2016-04-03T19:50:03Z pjb: (expt 2.0 10000) cannot be represented as an IEEE-754 64-bit floating point number!
2016-04-03T19:50:08Z pjb: (expt 2.0 10000) #| ERROR: floating-point-overflow detected performing * on (1.8446744E+19 1.8446744E+19) |#
2016-04-03T19:50:31Z aleogen: $2 = +inf.0
2016-04-03T19:50:35Z pjb: even with doubles: (expt 2.0d0 10000) #| ERROR: floating-point-overflow detected performing * on (1.3407807929942597D+154 1.3407807929942597D+154) |#
2016-04-03T19:50:48Z Bike: okay, that was kind of a weird place to jump to.
2016-04-03T19:50:50Z pjb: you might be lucky with clisp long-floats.
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2016-04-03T19:51:40Z lisp063: Ok.... That is why my calculator didnot work! Overflow.
2016-04-03T19:52:45Z Bike: what are you trying to do, exactly? what did you mean by "rounded to less digits"?
2016-04-03T19:53:14Z pjb: lisp063: you can use logarithms: (multiple-value-bind (digits mantissa) (truncate (log (expt 2 10000) 10)) (format nil "~A * 10^~A" (expt 10 mantissa) digits)) #| --> "1.9954866 * 10^3010" |#
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2016-04-03T22:21:32Z feep: yo
2016-04-03T22:21:34Z feep: quick strawpoll
2016-04-03T22:21:58Z feep: I'm making a lisp, and somebody's taking objection at the way my (let) works
2016-04-03T22:22:19Z feep: how horrible, on a scale from 1 to 5 where 1 is "not horrible at all" and 5 is "php", is the form (let (name value) (name value) (name value) body)?
2016-04-03T22:23:15Z Bike: it's making the grammar more ambiguous for no reason, so... three?
2016-04-03T22:23:32Z feep: um, what do you mean by grammar?
2016-04-03T22:24:12Z Bike: "LET" (symbol form)* form*, kinda thing?
2016-04-03T22:24:50Z feep: oh is that how it's supposed to look
2016-04-03T22:24:53Z ft: You either need to wrap the body expressions in another level of parens or the list of bindings. So I don't see a gain in doing it differently than standard lisp.
2016-04-03T22:25:10Z feep: ft: it's mostly because I didn't know how standard lisp does it
2016-04-03T22:25:20Z Bike: (let ((name value) (name value) ...) body)
2016-04-03T22:25:22Z feep: and now I'm trying to weigh the effort of changing it, cause I've already gotten used to it this way
2016-04-03T22:25:33Z Bike: now you don't need to figure out what's a name and what's part of the body forms, is all
2016-04-03T22:25:49Z feep: oh! no, I only have one statement for body
2016-04-03T22:26:15Z Bike: that blows slightly. do you not have side effects?
2016-04-03T22:26:22Z feep: no I do, I just write (seq) a lot
2016-04-03T22:26:26Z feep: :p
2016-04-03T22:26:32Z feep: yeah that's probably a good reason to change it
2016-04-03T22:26:34Z Bike: i'm sticking with blows slightly, then
2016-04-03T22:27:20Z feep: :nod: thank you!
2016-04-03T22:27:50Z Bike: also, for the future, this channel is for a particular language, i think this kind of question is supposed to go in ##lisp or wherever.
2016-04-03T22:28:03Z feep: ah! makes sense
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2016-04-03T22:49:15Z abbe: hi
2016-04-03T22:49:51Z abbe: is there a built-in common-lisp function that I could use to split a sequence into sub sequences of length N each ?
2016-04-03T22:51:10Z abbe: I have written one myself, but I wonder if there is a built-in function that I am better off using.
2016-04-03T22:53:09Z mood: abbe: There is no such function. (The utility library Serapeum contains a "batches" function that does it)
2016-04-03T22:54:14Z abbe: okay, thank you for confirming, i guess i'll use mine then, no need to include a library for a function.
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2016-04-03T23:19:54Z abbe: wow, batches is fast!
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2016-04-04T01:29:40Z vandal: hello, i would like to practice lisp (sbcl or clisp) on mac os x. Which combination of IDE and interpretor are great on mac os x for practicing lisp?
2016-04-04T01:30:32Z Bike: most people around here use SLIME for an IDE, i think. on a mac i think CCL would be a good lisp implementation, but sbcl prolly works too
2016-04-04T01:31:16Z vandal: Bike: slime for an IDE? i tought slime is a componoent of emacs that can launch lisp inside?
2016-04-04T01:31:37Z warweasle: vandal: Correct on points.
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2016-04-04T01:32:35Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: all but clisp support nan/inf i think, sb-cga has implementation specifics for a few of implementations. some implementations have reader syntax for them too like ++0 or +-0
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2016-04-04T01:33:19Z |3b| also finds https://github.com/bytecurry/trivial-ieee for sbcl,ccl,ecl
2016-04-04T01:33:49Z vandal: so.. (i am really neophyte just saying), is emacs the way to go as an ide for practicing lisp?
2016-04-04T01:34:17Z Bike: vandal: yea. slime has a lot more features than just launching lisp. tab completions and jumping to definitions and so on
2016-04-04T01:35:44Z vandal: ok even on mac os x, i have to choose beetween emacsformacosX (https://emacsformacosx.com/), emacs via macports or emacs via homebrew..
2016-04-04T01:35:51Z vandal: do you have any recommendation?
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2016-04-04T01:45:15Z Bike: those are just different versions of emacs. just get something reasonably recent.
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2016-04-04T02:03:36Z zRecursive: clhs 1E++0
2016-04-04T02:03:36Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for 1E++0.
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2016-04-04T02:07:09Z Bike: "some implementations"
2016-04-04T02:08:03Z Bike: trivial-ieee has a typo in ecl rounding mode, oop
2016-04-04T02:09:03Z zRecursive: yeah, first see it
2016-04-04T02:13:38Z |3b|: hmm, doesn't have typed inf/nan, thats a bit annoying
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2016-04-04T02:14:47Z |3b|: and worse, possibly different type on different implementations
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2016-04-04T02:22:24Z zRecursive: clhs lambda
2016-04-04T02:22:24Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
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2016-04-04T02:25:50Z aeth: which ieee library is the recommended one?
2016-04-04T02:26:28Z |3b|: to do what?
2016-04-04T02:26:37Z zRecursive: (symbol-function 'lambda) => #(-227328000 #<Compiled-function LAMBDA Macroexpander #x47F0E0E>), why (setf (symbol-function '&) (symbol-function 'lambda)) reports: Error: The value #<SIMPLE-VECTOR 2> is not of the expected type FUNCTION ... ?
2016-04-04T02:26:57Z |3b|: (or from which options? only ones i know are ieee-floats and trivial-ieee and they do different things)
2016-04-04T02:27:15Z Bike: zRecursive: symbol-function on a macro gets you weird things
2016-04-04T02:27:32Z Bike: such as that vector.
2016-04-04T02:28:07Z aeth: |3b|: I guess trivial-ieee is what I'm looking for
2016-04-04T02:28:13Z zRecursive: Bike: then can define-symbol-macro change it ?
2016-04-04T02:28:21Z Bike: that doesn't make any sense
2016-04-04T02:30:50Z |3b| also isn't sure about having constants for the nan/inf, i seem to remember putting them as functions in sb-cga to avoid problems with compilers breaking on constant propagation since they didn't have FP traps off
2016-04-04T02:31:19Z Bike: yeah, that seemed kind of weird to me too, not least because there's like a trillion different nans. of course it has nan-p functions too
2016-04-04T02:31:34Z zRecursive: Bike: i see, i just want to see if we can use any shorter symbol instead.  (type-of '&) => SYMBOL, but (define-symbol-macro '& 'lambda) => Error: '& is not a symbol. ?
2016-04-04T02:31:39Z aeth: If I'm implementing a language in CL that uses IEEE float, I can emulate it (e.g. with keywords), but it will obviously considerably slow down the arithmetic.
2016-04-04T02:31:51Z aeth: If there's something lower level than that, that would be nice
2016-04-04T02:32:00Z |3b|: well, if you want specific ones, you probably want a function to make arbitrary floats from bits anyway
2016-04-04T02:32:03Z Bike: i'd just fix trivial-ieee
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2016-04-04T02:32:36Z Bike: zRecursive: you should look up how the things you use work. if you checked the definition and examples of define-symbol-macro, symbol-function, etc., you would not ask these things.
2016-04-04T02:32:43Z aeth: Afaik, I just need to support +/- inf and nan.
2016-04-04T02:32:49Z |3b|: aeth: most implementations can just use the hardware, clisp specifically rejects inf/nan for "portability" reasons
2016-04-04T02:33:19Z aeth: |3b|: Isn't clisp single threaded? So this can't run on clisp anyway.
2016-04-04T02:33:26Z aeth: Something common breaks clisp, I think it might be threads
2016-04-04T02:33:35Z Bike: are there computers that don't use something approaching ieee floats
2016-04-04T02:33:51Z Bike: maybe one of them crazy DSPs the kids talk about
2016-04-04T02:33:54Z loke: aeth: There is threading support for Clisp, but it's not fantastic.
2016-04-04T02:33:58Z |3b|: arm boards might not have any floats
2016-04-04T02:34:22Z Bike: er, i mean, is there fp hardware in use that isn't ieee.
2016-04-04T02:34:31Z aeth: I'm not sure if it's just threads, but iirc something makes SDL2 not run on clisp unless I'm mistaken.
2016-04-04T02:34:31Z |3b|: and i think some that do don't support all the options or something
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2016-04-04T02:35:18Z loke: aeth: Getting CFII working on Clisp is also a mess.
2016-04-04T02:35:34Z loke: But why care about Clisp in the first place? The project has been dead for years.
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2016-04-04T02:36:25Z Bike: 3b just brought it up as an uncooperative implementation
2016-04-04T02:36:52Z aeth: loke: 3b brought it up as an implementation that won't use inf/nan, but it doesn't matter if clisp is already going to be broken in another part of the application anyway
2016-04-04T02:37:12Z |3b| doesn't, but doesn't want to ignore it implicitly in case you do
2016-04-04T02:37:44Z zRecursive: clhs define-symbol-macro
2016-04-04T02:37:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_1.htm
2016-04-04T02:38:16Z aeth: Interestingly, sbcl and clisp seem to have two different asdf versions on my system. clisp uses 2.26 and sbcl 3.1.5. I found out because I tried to load bordeaux-threads to test clisp's threading, and it failed because of the asdf version.
2016-04-04T02:38:37Z aeth: (I ran (asdf::asdf-version) to test after I found this out)
2016-04-04T02:38:57Z Bike: asdf is bundled with them both, so they probably don't use a system version by default
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2016-04-04T02:39:59Z aeth: I happen to also have a "cl-asdf" package installed, too. It's strange that sbcl and clisp don't share it.
2016-04-04T02:40:42Z |3b|: if you load asdf through the implementation provided asdf, you might get that one (possibly only if it is newer)
2016-04-04T02:41:03Z Bike: it might be that neither of them know about debian
2016-04-04T02:41:31Z |3b|: REQUIRE probably won't load through asdf if asdf isn't loaded, so can only load the implementations' version
2016-04-04T02:42:48Z aeth: Bike: this is Fedora
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2016-04-04T02:43:10Z Bike: same difference
2016-04-04T02:43:16Z aeth: Fedora is for when you want to move fast, but not too fast like Arc :-p
2016-04-04T02:43:21Z aeth: *Arch
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2016-04-04T02:43:56Z aeth: Strangely, it has an old sbcl version because apparently the packager decided 1.3 was too major of a version number bump to include.
2016-04-04T02:45:21Z |3b|: yeah, don't want to accidentally support arm64 :p
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2016-04-04T02:52:14Z zRecursive: clhs lambda
2016-04-04T02:52:14Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm
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2016-04-04T03:45:46Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-04-04T03:58:26Z aeth: good morning
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2016-04-04T05:05:31Z kenanb: hi folks
2016-04-04T05:05:42Z kenanb: does anyone know if cl-jpeg is broken
2016-04-04T05:06:32Z kenanb: and by broken I mean, it reads jpeg file and writes it but what it reads and writes are totally different, so I am not even sure if the problem is in decoding or encoding or both or me.
2016-04-04T05:07:41Z kenanb: I assumed I am using it wrong, but then I tested a code sample from opticl which uses cl-jpeg, again, the test result is wrong
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2016-04-04T05:09:14Z beach: kenanb: So you want to read and write image files?
2016-04-04T05:09:42Z beach: kenanb: Perhaps you should try "OPTICL" instead.
2016-04-04T05:10:02Z beach: Oops, I see you know about it.
2016-04-04T05:10:04Z beach: Sorry.
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2016-04-04T05:11:40Z Bike: it also uses cl-jpeg anyway, so there's that
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2016-04-04T05:11:50Z beach: Yeah.
2016-04-04T05:11:56Z beach: kenanb: Could it be that the decompression followed by compression is not unique?
2016-04-04T05:12:12Z beach: ... is not an identity operation?
2016-04-04T05:12:29Z kenanb: yes, specifically I want read binary stream that I got from drakma:http-request to an image and process it, cl-jpeg has a jpeg:decode-stream, which i used to read the binary stream into an image, but the image is always corrupt, and it seams the problem is directly with cl-jpeg
2016-04-04T05:12:59Z kenanb: since the results with encoding and decoding an image from opticl is also corrupt
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2016-04-04T05:13:11Z beach: Not good.
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2016-04-04T05:15:29Z kenanb: beach: I don't know, unfortunately I am almost completely ignorant of both streams and compression. But there is not many parameters you can feed to the compression procedure, and there is nothing at all you can feed to decompression procedure except the stream/image.
2016-04-04T05:15:59Z beach: Yes, I see.
2016-04-04T05:16:51Z Bike: and it displays fine if you open it up with something else, yes?
2016-04-04T05:17:09Z kenanb: so it automatically resolves the properties of the compressed image and decodes it. and decoder says it returns an image array in the same format as encoder source image, so when I input the same output from decoder to encoder, it results in a corrupt image
2016-04-04T05:17:21Z kenanb: the source image displays perfectly fine yes
2016-04-04T05:17:28Z beach: I am interested how this investigation turns out, because I was planning to use OPTICL to read images in McCLIM.  If it is broken, I may reconsider.
2016-04-04T05:18:05Z kenanb: the output of encoding also displays, but it is a total glitch, nothing that slightly represents the original image.
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2016-04-04T05:18:41Z kenanb: beach: I am fairly sure the problem doesn't reflect to opticl in general, and only the cl-jpeg part
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2016-04-04T05:19:06Z kenanb: I am checking out the recent changes in source code for possible regressions now, maybe I find something
2016-04-04T05:19:21Z beach: Good to know.  Still, if I want to use OPTICL, then whatever IT uses must work as well.
2016-04-04T05:19:46Z beach: OK, keep us informed about how it goes, please!
2016-04-04T05:20:20Z kenanb: yes, ofcourse, tho cl-jpeg is a really small codebase, probably even I will be able to find the bug despite knowing nothing about encoding
2016-04-04T05:20:44Z kenanb: sure, I will! :)
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2016-04-04T05:28:26Z kenanb: actually cl-jpeg is already broken without any compression glitches, there is a problem in the source, trying to encode anything results in "The function JPEG::MUL3 is undefined." error, mul3 is a macro that is defined after a function that calls it. simply moving macro definition before the function that calls it inside fixes it tho
2016-04-04T05:28:45Z kenanb: but obviously nobody really tested cl-jpeg lately
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2016-04-04T05:31:46Z kenanb: ok, the problem is definitely with the decoder, when I read a jpeg in opticl (so using cl-jpeg), and write it to a png, the result is correct, only when writing to jpeg you get glitch
2016-04-04T05:32:15Z kenanb: sorry the problem is definitely with the "encoder", not decoder
2016-04-04T05:32:31Z |3b|: try png->jpeg too?
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2016-04-04T05:38:20Z kenanb: yep, broken as well
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2016-04-04T06:55:51Z kenanb: |3b|: this is the commit that introduced both encoding and mul3 bugs: https://github.com/varjagg/cl-jpeg/commit/77f724fc742e0ddfd00ebaab763fab1c9b198648
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2016-04-04T06:58:44Z |3b|: kenanb: out of curiosity, do you get any errors/warnings if you change the optimize at https://github.com/varjagg/cl-jpeg/blob/master/jpeg.lisp#L88 to safety 3, debug 3 and recompile?
2016-04-04T07:01:06Z kenanb: not yet, indeed I should have done that in the first place.
2016-04-04T07:01:26Z kenanb: will try now
2016-04-04T07:01:34Z |3b| wishes that wasn't a step one needed to try :/
2016-04-04T07:01:54Z kenanb: :)
2016-04-04T07:03:23Z |3b|: that code does a lot of promising things to the compiler but not much verifying those promises :(
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2016-04-04T07:06:24Z kenanb: I will say tho, how can someone fail to catch a regression in a library that simply exports an encoding and a decoding procedure with no parameters is beyond me.
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2016-04-04T07:06:35Z |3b|: :/
2016-04-04T07:06:47Z |3b|: probably works on some other implementation or something
2016-04-04T07:06:57Z Cxcf: Anyone know if I can put an array into a structure
2016-04-04T07:07:05Z Cxcf: It seems like I can but I'm having trouble accessing the elements
2016-04-04T07:07:12Z |3b|: Cxcf: arrays are just values like any other
2016-04-04T07:07:18Z kenanb: I tried in both CCL and SBCL with no success, I suspect CMUCL is also a no-go in that case.
2016-04-04T07:07:35Z Cxcf: Is it possible to edit the value of an element in the array?
2016-04-04T07:07:44Z Cxcf: if its in a defstruct slot?
2016-04-04T07:08:03Z Cxcf: I was afraid that the disclaimer here: https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node173.html
2016-04-04T07:08:08Z kenanb: I also tried in both Windows and Linux with both implementations
2016-04-04T07:08:16Z |3b|: values shouldn't be affected by where they are stored
2016-04-04T07:08:18Z kenanb: anyway, it happens I guess.
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2016-04-04T07:08:55Z Cxcf: hmmm, then I'm trying to access them wrong.
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2016-04-04T07:11:48Z |3b|: Cxcf: paste an example of what you are doing at http://paste.lisp.org/new (or similar, or link to a code repo or whatever), and we can provide more specific advice
2016-04-04T07:11:48Z kenanb: |3b|: voila! The value #(2 3 3 3 ...) is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*)).
2016-04-04T07:11:49Z kenanb:  
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2016-04-04T07:13:39Z Cxcf: |3b|: will do, one second
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2016-04-04T07:18:06Z Cxcf: Alright, http://paste.lisp.org/+6P2U
2016-04-04T07:19:17Z Cxcf: comment said I'm trying to print out the array, but I need to populate it appropriately first. That's where I'm struggling...
2016-04-04T07:19:31Z |3b|: ok, first problem i see is that you don't define CACHE or CACHE-OBJECT variables anywhere
2016-04-04T07:20:33Z |3b|: and assigning to CACHE-OBJECT in the slot's initform might not do what you want anyway
2016-04-04T07:20:57Z |3b|: since you create a new one every time and overwrite the previous one
2016-04-04T07:21:17Z Cxcf: hmm, didn't the setq create the cache-object?
2016-04-04T07:21:39Z |3b|: it is unspecified what happens if you call SETF on a variable that doesn't exist
2016-04-04T07:21:40Z Cxcf: and the CACHE was meant to be the array that I defined.
2016-04-04T07:21:52Z Cxcf: oh, ok. hold on
2016-04-04T07:22:21Z |3b|: lots of old texts do that anyway, since it simplifies the code and most implementations do something useful enough for working on the REPL, but you shouldn't rely on it in real code
2016-04-04T07:23:31Z Cxcf: Is there a better way to define CACHE than I did in the setq + make-array statement?
2016-04-04T07:23:59Z Cxcf: Apologies for the confusion, this is my first project I've done in lisp
2016-04-04T07:24:10Z |3b|: and regrading the comment on SETF in that code, SETF assigns to a "place" not specifically a "variable", which is why you can use it to assign to (aref cache n)
2016-04-04T07:25:03Z |3b|: usually you define global variables with DEFPARAMETER, or DEFVAR (DEFPARAMETER resets the value every time it is evaluated, while DEFVAR only assigns the value if the variable didn't already exist)
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2016-04-04T07:25:32Z |3b|: you also usually name the variables defined with DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER with ** on the name, like *cache*
2016-04-04T07:26:11Z Cxcf: Ok, so I'll make *CACHE* a global var instead of defining it with a setq.
2016-04-04T07:26:25Z Cxcf: But doesn't setq offer me enough scope to reach into the function?
2016-04-04T07:27:15Z |3b|: "reach into the function"?
2016-04-04T07:27:25Z |3b|: SETQ doesn't define a variable
2016-04-04T07:27:53Z Cxcf: I'm scrounging the bottom of my limited-lisp-vocabulary
2016-04-04T07:27:56Z |3b|: it assigns to an existing variable (or symbol macro), and has undefined behavior if it doesn't exist
2016-04-04T07:28:52Z Cxcf: thank you, won't make that mistake again.
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2016-04-04T07:30:55Z |3b|: no worries about lack of vocabulary, my response was just saying i failed to parse it, so you might want to try again if i still haven't answered the question :)
2016-04-04T07:31:14Z Cxcf: hahaha, thanks. I really appreciate the help
2016-04-04T07:31:31Z Cxcf: Well, a setq in the struct definition won't do.
2016-04-04T07:31:58Z Cxcf: I'm looking for a way to put multiple different arrays in my struct.
2016-04-04T07:32:26Z Cxcf: I initially thought symbols or a plist would work, but then I need a different name for every single object (right word?)
2016-04-04T07:32:28Z |3b|: well, probably the answer is "just do that" :p
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2016-04-04T07:32:53Z |3b|: so once you figure out enough details of what you actually want the answer would be obvious
2016-04-04T07:33:21Z |3b|: right, a plist would require some way to identify the values
2016-04-04T07:33:46Z Cxcf: right, what ^|3b| said:)
2016-04-04T07:33:59Z Cxcf: Soooo, create a global *CACHE* array. The first 3 I would understand to be the slot, tag, and valid bits. Then the last I would understand to be my data and I would just put an array into it
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2016-04-04T07:34:58Z Cxcf: so when I initialize my cache array, I just iterate and seft-aref my way to a populated array
2016-04-04T07:34:58Z |3b|: are the fact that the array inside the struct has 16 elements and the global *cache* has 16 elements related?
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2016-04-04T07:35:35Z Cxcf: not really. 16 in the cache becasue I'm working with 4 byte instructions
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2016-04-04T07:35:49Z |3b|: ok
2016-04-04T07:35:53Z Cxcf: the 16 "cache slot's" were instructor-chosen
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2016-04-04T07:36:24Z |3b|: so you probably just want (data (make-array 16)) in the struct?
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2016-04-04T07:38:08Z Cxcf: In all the examples I looked up, the array initialization came with (setq name (make-array))
2016-04-04T07:38:23Z Cxcf: that's simple...
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2016-04-04T07:38:47Z |3b|: if you were initializing it outside the struct definition, you would use setf
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2016-04-04T07:39:32Z Cxcf: and if I want to change the value of an array element, I would use setf also, right?
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2016-04-04T07:39:56Z |3b|: right, you use SETF for most modification
2016-04-04T07:40:04Z Cxcf: |3b
2016-04-04T07:40:12Z Cxcf: |3b|: thank you so much
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2016-04-04T07:40:26Z |3b|: modern style pretty much only uses SETF, not SETQ or RPLACA or whatever
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2016-04-04T07:40:59Z Cxcf: |3b|: where did you learn lisp, if you don't mind my asking?
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2016-04-04T07:41:49Z |3b| read practical common lisp, then debugged a problem with the first lisp implementation i used while using CLHS for reference :)
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2016-04-04T07:41:59Z |3b|: also lots of help from this channel
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2016-04-04T07:42:17Z Cxcf: you guys are saviors:)
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2016-04-04T07:42:56Z Cxcf: I have PCL but I've been really liking the examples from https://psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/contents.html
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2016-04-04T07:43:36Z Cxcf: Oh, and another question. What's the difference between '(16) and 16
2016-04-04T07:43:54Z Cxcf: from what I've read, it means that 16 is evaluated, but '(16) means the form is passed?
2016-04-04T07:44:05Z Cxcf: does that matter for (make-array)?
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2016-04-04T07:45:09Z |3b|: '(16) is read as (QUOTE (16)), which when evaluated calls the special operator QUOTE with a list containing the value 16. When evaluated, QUOTE just returns the argument as-is, so '(16) evaluates to a list containing the number 16
2016-04-04T07:46:12Z |3b|: MAKE-ARRAY accepts what is called in the spec a "designator" for a list of array dimensions, and in this case the number 16 "designates" a list containing the number 16
2016-04-04T07:46:45Z |3b|: so (make-array 16) is a shortcut with the same effect as (make-array '(16)), since 1-dimensional arrays are a fairly common case
2016-04-04T07:47:38Z zRecursi`: sorry , I forgot what's the difference between #'mod and #'rem ?
2016-04-04T07:47:55Z |3b|: clhs mod
2016-04-04T07:47:55Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_mod.htm
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2016-04-04T07:48:10Z zRecursi`: clhs rem
2016-04-04T07:48:10Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mod_r.htm
2016-04-04T07:48:19Z |3b|: behavior with negative numbers i think
2016-04-04T07:48:47Z zRecursi`: i am short circuit
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2016-04-04T07:55:00Z |3b|: possibly more obvious if you look at the output of FLOOR and TRUNCATE with arguments with differing signs
2016-04-04T07:57:36Z Cxcf: |3b|: EUREKA! It worked! Thank you!
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2016-04-04T07:59:38Z zRecursi`: |3b|: yeah, negative
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2016-04-04T08:00:04Z Cxcf: iterators for going through structs?
2016-04-04T08:00:33Z Cxcf: been using dotimes, becasue it looks similar to Java's iterators, but I've been experimenting with loop
2016-04-04T08:00:51Z Cxcf: lisp has more flavors when it somes to iteration:)
2016-04-04T08:01:02Z DeadTrickster: |3b|, thanks for the references still not sure these all are useful since CL standard mandates exceptions.
2016-04-04T08:01:15Z DeadTrickster: and ieee-floats can disable them but only globally
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2016-04-04T08:02:00Z DeadTrickster: I meant trivial-ieee
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2016-04-04T08:07:39Z |3b|: DeadTrickster: i thought it had a macro to disable them within the scope of the macro?
2016-04-04T08:08:05Z DeadTrickster: ouch
2016-04-04T08:08:14Z DeadTrickster: It's just in front of me
2016-04-04T08:08:27Z DeadTrickster: I concentrated on disable-fp-traps
2016-04-04T08:09:24Z DeadTrickster: btw it's not included in QL
2016-04-04T08:10:38Z John[lisbeth]: What's the comman to take a file open in a buffer and save it under a new name in a new path, even though it is already saved somewhere else?
2016-04-04T08:12:15Z |3b|: sounds like a question for #emacs if that's what you mean, but C-x C-w maybe?
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2016-04-04T08:13:08Z John[lisbeth]: oh sorry man I thought I was in #emacs.
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2016-04-04T08:13:30Z JuanDaugherty: np
2016-04-04T08:13:38Z DeadTrickster: pn
2016-04-04T08:14:44Z JuanDaugherty: d
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2016-04-04T08:22:13Z muyinliu: hi, everyone.
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2016-04-04T08:24:04Z muyinliu: I'm using Aquamacs with tabbar on, sometimes after opening files, Aquqmacs will hide some buffers, how to disable this?
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2016-04-04T08:26:08Z pjb: Aquamacs is almost another editor :-)  You could try to ask on #emacs, if there's no #aquamacs…
2016-04-04T08:26:30Z muyinliu: pjb: thanks
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2016-04-04T08:28:46Z pjb: muyinliu: I use http://www.emacsformacosx.com on MacOSX…
2016-04-04T08:29:06Z pjb: (and basic GNU emacs with X11, from MacPort in the terminal or X11).
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2016-04-04T08:30:42Z muyinliu: pjb: I have tried Emacs for Mac OS, but it's default tabbar is a little ugly and I don't know how to make it beautiful, so I use Aquamacs for instead.
2016-04-04T08:31:46Z pjb: Ok.
2016-04-04T08:32:43Z pjb: muyinliu: Probably the way to make it a little prettier would be by "customizing" the faces it uses.  I don't have it here, so I can't tell more.
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2016-04-04T08:34:32Z muyinliu: pjb: thanks. Sometimes Emacs just hide all the invisible tab,  weird...
2016-04-04T08:35:02Z muyinliu: not just in Aquamacs, but also the command line version of Emacs
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2016-04-04T08:56:17Z Jonsky: I think I do not fully understand the environmant of macro. I made (defmacro t (y) `(list ,x ,y)) and of course then (t 5) gave me error becouse x was unboud. Then I (setf x 1) and (t 9) gave ( 1 9) and it's ok. But then I (unintern 'x) and now (t 5) still gave (1 5). How did the macro "remember" an uninterned symbol?
2016-04-04T08:56:36Z Jonsky: s/unboud/unbound
2016-04-04T08:57:11Z |3b|: a symbol is a normal object, whether it is interned or not
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2016-04-04T08:57:45Z |3b|: INTERN just makes it accessible in a package, usually by the reader (but also from INTERN, FIND-SYMBOL, etc)
2016-04-04T08:58:08Z |3b|: once the macro definition is READ, it contains that actual symbol object
2016-04-04T08:58:58Z Jonsky: aha!!
2016-04-04T08:59:56Z |3b|: one of the important bits of understanding CL is that the evaluation rules are defined in terms of the actual symbol objects, lisp lists made from conses, etc rather than in terms of the sequence of characters in the file on disk (or typed into the repl)
2016-04-04T09:02:52Z Jonsky: I just set x again to 100 and (t 5) still gives me (1 8). So the macro really remembers the object x even it's not there when the macro is defined.
2016-04-04T09:03:53Z Jonsky: |3b|: thanks, I will keep that in mind.
2016-04-04T09:04:29Z pjb: Notice that it's not conforming to reference a dynamic variable like this without having it explicitely declared special, either globally or locally in the macro.
2016-04-04T09:04:54Z pjb: You could write it as: (defmacro t (y) (locally (declare (special x)) `(list ,x ,y)))
2016-04-04T09:05:15Z pjb: Of course, as a special variable you would actually name it *x* not x.
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2016-04-04T09:06:42Z pjb: Jonsky: and finally, you could make the macro a closure: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (let ((x 42)) (defmacro m (y) `(list ,x ,y))  (defun set-x (new-x) (setf x new-x))))
2016-04-04T09:07:05Z pjb: Then: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (set-x 33)) (m 0) --> (33 0)
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2016-04-04T09:07:20Z pjb: (if compiling).
2016-04-04T09:07:40Z pjb: (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (set-x 22)) (m 0) --> (22 0) ; in general.
2016-04-04T09:08:56Z Jonsky: pjb: is teh (evan-when ...) neccessary for both in repl and compiled code?
2016-04-04T09:09:19Z Jonsky: (I haven't read eval-when in detail yet ...)
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2016-04-04T09:11:55Z pjb: Jonsky: they're not necessary in the REPL, but in files, compiled or loaded.
2016-04-04T09:12:56Z pjb: Jonsky: the REPL is much more lax, so relying only on it will give you surprises when you write programs in files to be compiled.
2016-04-04T09:19:20Z Jonsky: I just did the same test in (defun ...). I defuned a function that uses an unbound variable and change it. Everytime the function treats that variable as special variable but once I uninterned the symbol and (setf) it again, the function only gives the last value before I uninterned the symbol.
2016-04-04T09:20:49Z |3b|: compile a function that SETFs it, and that function will be defined with the old symbol, rather than the new one that gets created when you read a new form using the same symbol name after uninterning the old symbol
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2016-04-04T09:23:22Z Jonsky: ahahahaha, now I get it.
2016-04-04T09:23:25Z Jonsky: Thanks!!
2016-04-04T09:24:12Z |3b|: the other side of CL defining evaluation rules in terms of symbol objects and actual lists is that it defines a process for turning text into those objects
2016-04-04T09:24:29Z |3b|: part of that process is creating symbols from sequences of characters
2016-04-04T09:24:55Z |3b|: in order to use the symbol for naming things (like variables), it needs to get the same symbol object for the same name every time
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2016-04-04T09:25:44Z |3b|: INTERN is used to create the symbol and add it to the package object, or get the symbol if it already exists in the package
2016-04-04T09:26:20Z |3b|: UNINTERN removes it from the package, so if you READ that name again (for example in the repl, or loading more code), INTERN will make a new symbol
2016-04-04T09:28:04Z |3b|: that split is why you can't do something like (progn (load "file-that-defines-a-package.lisp") (some-package-from-that-file:foo)) since it tries to READ that whole form before it can evaluate any of it, and the package doesn't exist until it is evaluated
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2016-04-04T09:31:15Z Jonsky: aha, I would make the same mistake too. I always forget it's read read read -> eval eval eval , instead of read -> eval read -> eval .
2016-04-04T09:34:08Z |3b|: it is read -> eval, just that it reads an entire form at once, which in that case is everything in the (progn ...)
2016-04-04T09:34:34Z Jonsky: yes, sorry for the confusion
2016-04-04T09:35:08Z |3b|: the other issue is compile vs load, where compiling the form (load ...) also doesn't load the file, and thus doesn't create the package until you actually load the compiled file that contained the (load ...)
2016-04-04T09:36:16Z |3b|: which is where EVAL-WHEN comes into play, for making it do things during compilation as well (though for the specific case of LOAD, you should probably be doing something else to start with)
2016-04-04T09:36:53Z |3b|: or rather COMPIILE-FILE vs LOAD
2016-04-04T09:37:10Z |3b|: since LOAD might compile things too on some implementations
2016-04-04T09:37:27Z Jonsky: |3b|: aha, no wonder we need the complicated EVAL-WHEN
2016-04-04T09:37:33Z |3b|: but it would still do so a form at a time, and evaluate the result before processing the next form
2016-04-04T09:39:22Z |3b|: (COMPILE-FILE also processes a form at a time, but in that case the processing doesn't usually involve evaluating them)
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2016-04-04T09:40:02Z Jonsky: So lemme see if I get this right: if I compile a file that contains only a DEFUN, then the function is not defined.
2016-04-04T09:40:44Z Jonsky: unless I tell the compiler that it should EVAL-WHEN :compile
2016-04-04T09:40:53Z loke: Jonsky: correct.
2016-04-04T09:41:07Z loke: Or, you load the (compiled) file afterwards
2016-04-04T09:41:55Z loke: Jonsky: Generally, there is only one way to reliably use EVAL-WHEN, and that's with all three modes: (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL :LOAD-TOPLEVEL :EXECUTE)
2016-04-04T09:41:57Z Jonsky: THANKS!! SERIOUSLY!! (sorry for shouting but I am trully happy now)
2016-04-04T09:44:01Z loke: Trully? :-)
2016-04-04T09:44:57Z Jonsky: LOL
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2016-04-04T11:35:52Z Suzuran: Does this channel have a bot command that tells you the last time someone else was here?
2016-04-04T11:36:21Z |3b|: no, though it is publicly logged if you want to search manually
2016-04-04T11:36:44Z Suzuran: I know, I was hoping to avoid having to do it by hand.
2016-04-04T11:36:45Z Suzuran: Oh well.
2016-04-04T11:36:46Z |3b|: (actually, maybe it does not, i think there are a few more bot)
2016-04-04T11:37:04Z |3b|: *maybe it does now
2016-04-04T11:37:39Z Suzuran: That or does anyone happen to remember the last time nyef was around?
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2016-04-04T11:38:15Z Xach: Suzuran: february 1.
2016-04-04T11:38:33Z Suzuran: Oooh, that's much more recent than I expected
2016-04-04T11:38:34Z Suzuran: Thanks
2016-04-04T11:39:35Z Cxcf: is there a better way to prompt user input than (read)?
2016-04-04T11:40:01Z Cxcf: I'm trying to prompt user input in-step with my printed prompts.
2016-04-04T11:40:45Z |3b|: READ is a reasonable choice, you might need FINISH-OUTPUT first though
2016-04-04T11:40:59Z |3b|: clhs finish-output
2016-04-04T11:40:59Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm
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2016-04-04T11:41:17Z Cxcf: *reading*
2016-04-04T11:41:19Z Cxcf: thanks:)
2016-04-04T11:41:25Z |3b|: yeah, finish-output is the one i meant
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2016-04-04T11:47:42Z Cxcf: Remembering what |3b| said earlier, would it be wise to defvar a read-input variable and then setq update it every time I re-prompt the user?
2016-04-04T11:48:35Z Cxcf: Or would it be wiser to use let?
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2016-04-04T11:49:50Z |3b|: depends on what you are doing, but avoiding global state is pretty common advice for programming in general
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2016-04-04T11:51:20Z Cxcf: thanks again:)
2016-04-04T11:51:23Z |3b|: (defvar and defparameter make "special" (= dynamic scope) variables, which aren't quite as bad as the usual definition of "global" when used properly, but just SETFing the global binding like that falls under the usual definition of "global")
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2016-04-04T14:40:47Z DeadTrickster: yet another monitoring tool: https://github.com/deadtrickster/prometheus.cl
2016-04-04T14:41:02Z DeadTrickster: wip
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2016-04-04T16:03:17Z warweasle: When is the next quicklisp update scheduled?
2016-04-04T16:03:35Z warweasle: I'm trying to beat the deadline so I can put stuff in the gamejam.
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2016-04-04T16:09:07Z XachX: warweasle: Friday
2016-04-04T16:10:25Z warweasle: XachX: Awesome... 00:00 Universal time?
2016-04-04T16:10:37Z XachX: Ha
2016-04-04T16:10:50Z XachX: Probably 5pm eastern
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2016-04-04T16:11:22Z warweasle: XachX: Moot point. I'm at work until 6ish.
2016-04-04T16:11:40Z warweasle: XachX: But I can work into the wee hours then.
2016-04-04T16:12:16Z kenanb: XachX: cl-jpeg is broken in several ways, it is introduced in this commit https://github.com/varjagg/cl-jpeg/commit/77f724fc742e0ddfd00ebaab763fab1c9b198648 as part of PR #9
2016-04-04T16:13:20Z kenanb: specifically, the part about encoding is broken
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2016-04-04T16:15:47Z XachX: kenanb: was that in the ql release?
2016-04-04T16:18:01Z kenanb: yes
2016-04-04T16:18:53Z Bike: only from declarations? that's kind of interesting.
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2016-04-04T16:22:38Z kenanb: well, I was able to track it down to there, it worked when I reverted that specific commit, but I am double checking now.
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2016-04-04T16:24:48Z kenanb: when you increase safety and debug, then encoding signals "The value #(2 3 3 3 3 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 0 0 0 ...) is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY (UNSIGNED-BYTE 8) (*))."
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2016-04-04T16:26:56Z Bike: sounds persnickety.
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2016-04-04T16:32:15Z Bike: do you have a backtrace for that?
2016-04-04T16:33:44Z kenanb: yes, let me first bring the repo back to its initial state and paste the backtrace
2016-04-04T16:34:00Z Bike: oh, might have found something.
2016-04-04T16:35:02Z Bike: encode-block declares parts of its second argument to be uint8-arrays. in encode-image-stream that argument is constructed by build-tables, which returns T arrays.
2016-04-04T16:36:34Z kenanb: yes, the backtrace shows the problem at a similar location
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2016-04-04T16:37:45Z Bike: so try replacing those declarations, maybe it will unfuck slightly
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2016-04-04T16:42:09Z kenanb: I will try that
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2016-04-04T16:43:24Z kenanb: also, shouldn't *optimize* in (declare #.*optimize*) be defined by a defvar instead of a defparameter so that someone can actually override settings before loading the system?
2016-04-04T16:44:11Z Bike: that wouldn't really make sense, since *optimize* is in the jpeg package which is made by the system.
2016-04-04T16:44:54Z kenanb: hmm, yes, that was stupid, sorry
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2016-04-04T16:45:16Z Bike: it's a reasonable thing to think you could do.
2016-04-04T16:46:01Z kenanb: and this looks like an inline function rather than a macro (defmacro u8ref (data x y) `(the uint8 (aref (the uint8-array (aref (the uint8-2d-array ,data) ,y)) ,x))) this is not related to sanity of library I am just trying to have a better grasp of where to choose what.
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2016-04-04T16:46:27Z kenanb: or should it be a macro?
2016-04-04T16:46:38Z Bike: yes, it does look like a function. there's also a "minus" macro
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2016-04-04T16:49:42Z Bike: there's also the way it uses arrays of arrays... seems a bit weird in several places, really.
2016-04-04T16:50:11Z kenanb: about the *optimize*, if it was a defvar, I could have at least load the system, setf jpeg::*optimize* and load-system again with :force t, and it would be optimized according to my settings this time, right?
2016-04-04T16:50:29Z Bike: and it throws an error when most-positive-fixnum and most-negative-fixnum have different bit lengths, oooookay
2016-04-04T16:50:40Z kenanb: I suspect there is some logic to that because Edi uses defvar in his similar pattern in cl-ppcre
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2016-04-04T16:51:06Z Bike: i think *optimize* is in a variable like that just so you can edit the source text easily. i'm not sure how a reload would work, honestly.
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2016-04-04T16:52:51Z Bike: oh, right, this is the library that does that "compile-time optimization" business.
2016-04-04T16:53:24Z kenanb: yeah
2016-04-04T16:53:53Z Bike: maybe it could use some refactoring. but i'd just focus on getting it working at all, heh.
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2016-04-04T17:12:55Z kenanb: it actually works for my purposes, I just need expect properly decoding the stream from cl-jpeg for this particular case but I feel the urge to fix now
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2016-04-04T17:17:54Z phf: i have a nested series expression, i.e. inside a mapping i'm producing new series, so the end result is #z(#z(...) #z(...) ...), is there a function/pattern for flattening or perhaps it needs to be written somehow differently? the code is essentially (mapping ((filename (scan ...))) (scan-file filename #'record-reader)), but i want to get all records as a single stream
2016-04-04T17:18:14Z kenanb: anyway, I'll let it go for now
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2016-04-04T17:20:35Z Bike: so changing that declaration fixed your problem?
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2016-04-04T17:45:39Z warweasle: k
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2016-04-04T17:56:24Z axion: phf: alexandria:flatten?
2016-04-04T17:56:54Z phf: axion: different paradigm
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2016-04-04T18:00:04Z sweater: cket league
2016-04-04T18:00:17Z sweater: does anyone have ro
2016-04-04T18:00:24Z sweater: wrong chan
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2016-04-04T18:00:57Z phf: series is this old school magical transformatron that does its best at turning functional style map/reduce into loops at compile time (or fails gracefully into passing structures around). it is considered to be old and cranky, so not really favored by #lisp anymore, but you still see it around
2016-04-04T18:02:16Z phf: fwiw i'm basically doing an equivalent of alexandria:flatten with (loop for file = (collect ...) nconc (collect ... (... file))) but i was hoping there's a better way
2016-04-04T18:03:09Z kenanb: Bike: hah! it worked! :)
2016-04-04T18:03:16Z Bike: sweet
2016-04-04T18:03:35Z kenanb: thank you!
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2016-04-04T18:11:33Z ssake: Can I add cflags in lisp code with ecl? How would I add -std=c++11 for the ecls compile-file?
2016-04-04T18:14:20Z Bike: uh, isn't it C code?
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2016-04-04T18:15:34Z ssake: If you compile ecl with -cxx flag it will use g++ for compiling
2016-04-04T18:16:10Z Bike: okay...
2016-04-04T18:16:24Z Bike: well, i think it's c::*cc-flags* or something. try (apropos "FLAGS") if not I g uess.
2016-04-04T18:16:33Z ssake: Thanks
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2016-04-04T18:23:58Z John[Lisbeth]: sometimes when a lisp program doesn't compile it prints out a nice error message that tells me what piece of code messed up
2016-04-04T18:24:19Z John[Lisbeth]: but other times it opens up this bs in another emacs window that doesn't tell me hardly anything
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2016-04-04T18:30:54Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: it depends on the implementation, but sometimes it takes practice to understand what it's trying to tell you, and when you have practice, it tells you a lot.
2016-04-04T18:31:06Z Xach: sometimes, of course, it gives no useful info
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2016-04-04T19:19:42Z DeadTrickster: can uiop walk directory?
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2016-04-04T19:22:01Z emaczen`: How can I modify the readtable to ignore colons as package designators?
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2016-04-04T19:23:24Z Bicyclidine: you can't alter the part of the reader that does symbols. i'm not totally sure i understand what you're asking for though.
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2016-04-04T19:24:12Z emaczen`: I'm calling (read-from-string "some-text:::more-text") and it expects the colons to designate packages/symbols
2016-04-04T19:24:43Z emaczen`: I want some-text:::more-text to just be a big symbol I guess
2016-04-04T19:24:49Z Bicyclidine: saying they "designate" that is confusing, they're just part of the syntax, but okay.
2016-04-04T19:24:58Z Bicyclidine: is there a reason you can't just call intern/find-symbol?
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2016-04-04T19:25:47Z emaczen`: I'm taking user input from from the terminal
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2016-04-04T19:26:44Z Bicyclidine: i don't see how that relates to my question?
2016-04-04T19:27:40Z emaczen`: I get the user input from calling "read" I don't see why intern/find-symbol is relevant than?
2016-04-04T19:28:40Z mood: emaczen`: What is it you really want to do with that user input?
2016-04-04T19:28:48Z Bicyclidine: because if you're just reading "some-text:::more-text" and you want it to be a symbol, intern/find-symbol will do that. if you're actually reading a more complicated data structure then you want read, yeah, and then you're kind of out of luck if you can't make the user put in |some-text:::more-text| instead, or something.
2016-04-04T19:28:56Z emaczen`: My clients are going to type "some-text:::more-text" and since this text is from read, it is going to try to say that the extra colons are a read-time error
2016-04-04T19:29:21Z Bicyclidine: if they actually type just that text, there's no reason to use read.
2016-04-04T19:29:55Z emaczen`: read parses it sometimes into trees, symbols, and numbers
2016-04-04T19:30:15Z Bicyclidine: okay, i see.
2016-04-04T19:30:40Z emaczen`: Bicyclidine: The exact error I get is "too many colons" -- Am I out of luck?
2016-04-04T19:30:42Z Bicyclidine: if you want to use read, you'll have to alter your input format. the package:symbol thing is baked in.
2016-04-04T19:31:08Z emaczen`: Bicyclidine: I can't even readtable it away?
2016-04-04T19:31:26Z Bicyclidine: no. symbol reading isn't done through macros.
2016-04-04T19:31:37Z mood: Well, you could put a reader macro on every single character, but you never want to do that
2016-04-04T19:32:03Z Bicyclidine: if you change the input format you could add a reader macro, and have ^text:::more or whatever work.
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2016-04-04T19:33:39Z emaczen`: What other input format can I use?
2016-04-04T19:34:07Z Bicyclidine: by "input format" i mean the scheme of what the user is supposed to input that's valid. so i mean, anything you dream up.
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2016-04-04T20:42:06Z malice: Hey, anyone got some tutorial for usocket?
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2016-04-04T20:58:01Z carl`: is this considered bad form? (defun fun (arg1 arg2 ... &optional (accumulator nil)))
2016-04-04T20:58:15Z carl`: do most people make helper methods or labels?
2016-04-04T20:58:55Z pjb: labels might more efficient.
2016-04-04T21:00:32Z carl`: why would that be? couldn't they both be tail call optimized the same?
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2016-04-04T21:37:42Z pjb: carl`: imagine you're writing a CL implementation. What is easier to generate efficient code for? labels or &optional?
2016-04-04T21:37:59Z phoe_krk: http://designisrefactoring.com/2016/04/01/rust-via-its-core-values/
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2016-04-04T21:38:28Z phoe_krk: these are fairly fun ideas - and fairly easy to implement in a Lisp, too~
2016-04-04T21:38:30Z phoe_krk: anyways, night!
2016-04-04T21:38:56Z phoe_krk: malice: tutorial for usocket... well, no.
2016-04-04T21:38:59Z phoe_krk: sadly.
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2016-04-04T21:39:27Z phoe_krk: There is a http://www.nicklevine.org/lisp-book/contents/chhttp.pdf which might suit you though, malice!
2016-04-04T21:39:37Z mood: usocket also has a manual
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2016-04-04T21:40:58Z phoe_krk: mood: yes, but I found it to be hard to grasp when you're trying to get acquainted with the library and perhaps sockets in general.
2016-04-04T21:41:09Z phoe_krk: It's hard to follow it in some coherent steps.
2016-04-04T21:41:14Z mood: Yeah, it's not suitable for getting acquainted with sockets
2016-04-04T21:41:25Z phoe_krk: The API is fun, but it's nigh useless for someone learning.
2016-04-04T21:41:38Z mood: But when you know what you're looking for, it's okay
2016-04-04T21:42:06Z phoe_krk: agreed.
2016-04-04T21:42:10Z phoe_krk: good night~
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2016-04-04T21:43:08Z mood: see ya!
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2016-04-04T21:45:50Z copec: newb question:  I'm making a toy database but modeling real life stuff with the CLOS, so when you have something like a library of books and say your classes hierarchy "boils down" to library and book. Would the cleanest way be to add a book instance to a list or vector or something under a slot of the library?
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2016-04-04T21:46:59Z phoe_krk: copec: do you have any way to index the book? I assume you do, let's say, by ISBN.
2016-04-04T21:47:07Z copec: yes
2016-04-04T21:47:13Z phoe_krk: also, how many books will there be? 10? 100? 100000?
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2016-04-04T21:48:25Z phoe_krk: I say - MAKE-HASH-TABLE! This way you can index any amount of books by their ISBN with access time as close to O(1) as possible. Vectors are not extensible and lists have O(n) search time - something you, as a librarian, will not want, as you're going to search for books very often.
2016-04-04T21:48:58Z copec: okay
2016-04-04T21:49:06Z phoe_krk: Unless you have books you can count with your fingers, at which point, feel free to use a list; it's going to have the least overhead, the most simplicity and decent speed.
2016-04-04T21:49:19Z phoe_krk: Or just a sheet of paper instead of a computerized database.
2016-04-04T21:49:39Z copec: This is a toy problem for me to learn
2016-04-04T21:49:53Z copec: I looked around and decided on something to do :-)
2016-04-04T21:50:57Z copec: In a general sense, when does something move from being a property of something (a slot of an instance) to being something that is contained by it?
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2016-04-04T21:51:32Z phoe_krk: Umm?
2016-04-04T21:51:37Z phoe_krk: Being something that is contained?
2016-04-04T21:51:37Z copec: Say you have a library class with X properties, of which an instance of is your database
2016-04-04T21:51:58Z copec: like, a bunch of books in a library, or a flock of birds
2016-04-04T21:52:24Z copec: does each book or bird map to a slot, or should they be an instance of a class all to themselves
2016-04-04T21:52:43Z copec: I guess I'm looking for a pointer to a good OO with the CLOS design
2016-04-04T21:52:53Z copec: book/info or something
2016-04-04T21:52:55Z phoe_krk: (defclass book () ...)
2016-04-04T21:53:04Z phoe_krk: A list of (make-instance 'book ...)
2016-04-04T21:53:25Z phoe_krk: (defclass library () (books ...) ...)
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2016-04-04T21:53:42Z phoe_krk: (make-instance 'library ...)
2016-04-04T21:54:10Z phoe_krk: (setf (slot-value library-instance 'books) my-list-of-books)
2016-04-04T21:54:15Z phoe_krk: Boom.
2016-04-04T21:54:25Z phoe_krk: And you can s/A list/A hash-table/
2016-04-04T21:54:28Z copec: That answers my question
2016-04-04T21:54:36Z phoe_krk: And sounds somewhat sane, IMO.
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2016-04-04T21:55:52Z dwchandler: s/A list/A hash-table/ <--- phoe_krk, please redo this in common lisp so I can understand it ;-)
2016-04-04T21:55:59Z copec: So you wouldn't having something that would define a new subclass of a generic book class for each book, and then make a new library with all the book subclasses instance :-p
2016-04-04T21:57:17Z copec: (which seems like the crazy way to do it, but sticking to an exact model of mapping)
2016-04-04T21:58:16Z phoe_krk: dwchandler: blah
2016-04-04T21:58:26Z phoe_krk: Instead of creating a list of books, you can create a hashtable of books.
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2016-04-04T21:58:46Z phoe_krk: copec: why a new subclass of a generic book class?
2016-04-04T21:59:05Z phoe_krk: Why make a generic book class at all?
2016-04-04T21:59:06Z JuanDaugherty: SIPE-2, as it turns out, is no longer available
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2016-04-04T22:00:38Z phoe_krk: omg it's 5th april
2016-04-04T22:00:40Z phoe_krk: I gotta sleep
2016-04-04T22:00:43Z phoe_krk: night~
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2016-04-04T22:01:07Z copec: phoe_krk, your timezone is way ahead of mine!
2016-04-04T22:01:32Z phoe_krk: copec: happens in the 21st century
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2016-04-04T22:45:36Z fiddlerwoaroof: does loop have a iteration counter? Or do I have to manually specify one with a for-as-then clause?
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2016-04-04T22:47:22Z mood: fiddlerwoaroof: You could just use `for iteration from 0` or something
2016-04-04T22:48:37Z fiddlerwoaroof: mood: thanks
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2016-04-04T22:57:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: eudoxia's trivial-ssh package is qutie nice for scripting remote systems.
2016-04-04T22:57:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312496
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2016-04-05T02:22:46Z axion: mood: "from 0" is implicit
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2016-04-05T02:23:36Z Bike: not if there's no limit
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2016-04-05T03:37:23Z jasom: you can do for i by 1 as well I think
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2016-04-05T04:23:56Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-04-05T04:38:03Z shifty: how might one force flush a stream inside with-open-file?
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2016-04-05T04:38:45Z Bike: meaning what, input buffers
2016-04-05T04:38:46Z H4ns: shifty: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_finish.htm
2016-04-05T04:38:46Z Bike: ?
2016-04-05T04:40:05Z shifty: H4ns: that looks the ticket.
2016-04-05T04:41:30Z shifty: Bike: I have a long-running function that writes lines to a file.  I want to review progress (by reading the file) whilst the function is running.  In C, one would use fflush(file_handle).
2016-04-05T04:42:17Z Bike: yeah, so h4ns is right. i thought there was an off chance you meant slurping the whole thing at once
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2016-04-05T04:46:50Z Zhivago: See force-output and finish-output.
2016-04-05T04:46:59Z Zhivago: Probably you just want force-output.
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2016-04-05T04:47:42Z Zhivago: Although in C, I would use setvbuf rather than fflush.
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2016-04-05T05:01:07Z shifty: Zhivago: just read the man page on setvbuf - had never heard of it!  Mostly when I'm flushing output, it's some throw-away quicky code along the lines of "print this, flush", so this whole setvbuf is a little too much like planning ahead :-)  Although, now you've brought it to my attention, I'll be sure to use it next time.
2016-04-05T05:02:10Z Zhivago: Glad to hear it.
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2016-04-05T07:41:00Z phoe_work: Hey!
2016-04-05T07:41:04Z phoe_work: ? (quicklisp-quickstart:install) > Error: Connection refused (error #111) during attempt to connect to 54.240.166.151:80
2016-04-05T07:41:22Z phoe_work: Is quicklisp (installer) down?
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2016-04-05T07:45:49Z phoe_work: I'm using CCL, but it doesn't look like it matters; a HTTP lookup gives me an error.
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2016-04-05T07:52:27Z loke: phoe_krk: I also get connections refused
2016-04-05T07:52:34Z loke: phoe_work:
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2016-04-05T07:57:34Z phoe_work: loke: so it's global; okay.
2016-04-05T07:57:47Z loke: phoe_work: Where are you located?
2016-04-05T07:57:53Z phoe_work: loke: Poland, Cracow.
2016-04-05T07:57:59Z loke: OK, Singapore here
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2016-04-05T07:58:12Z phoe_work: But yeah, http://54.240.166.151/
2016-04-05T07:58:17Z phoe_work: Look here. Seems like it's all down.
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2016-04-05T08:20:29Z phoe_work: this is terrible
2016-04-05T08:21:05Z phoe_work: my huge corporate project fails to build. it depends on quicklisp - in particular, on the TRIVIAL-LEFT-PAD system that's hosted there
2016-04-05T08:24:00Z zRecursive: phoe_work: (ql:quickload "lparallel") successful !
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2016-04-05T08:24:47Z phoe_work: ...with Quicklisp already installed on your machine. :P
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2016-04-05T08:28:20Z DeadTrickster: github is a bit down too
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2016-04-05T08:29:58Z easye goes to cheer github up.
2016-04-05T08:33:23Z Petit_Dejeuner: Put it on github they said. It's more reliable they said.
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2016-04-05T08:37:09Z igam: Petit_Dejeuner: I use 4 repositories: git.framasoft.org gitlab.com git.informatimago.com github.com :-)
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2016-04-05T08:37:37Z igam: I've got a little scripts to push and pull on all four at once: gpull/gpush --all-remotes
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2016-04-05T08:40:00Z Petit_Dejeuner just wants to host his own server.
2016-04-05T08:41:14Z igam: It's easy enough. And nowadays, you can even use gitlab's server software at home.
2016-04-05T08:41:22Z igam: framasoft uses it.
2016-04-05T08:41:27Z igam: common-lisp.net too.
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2016-04-05T08:42:22Z DeadTrickster: what is framasoft?
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2016-04-05T08:42:51Z igam: French free software promotor.
2016-04-05T08:43:04Z igam: https://framasoft.org/
2016-04-05T08:43:15Z igam: https://git.framasoft.org/public/projects
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2016-04-05T08:43:40Z igam: https://git.framasoft.org/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&search=common+lisp&group_id=&repository_ref=
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2016-04-05T08:46:26Z DeadTrickster: oh ok
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2016-04-05T08:47:50Z loke: Anyone seen Xach around?
2016-04-05T08:47:54Z loke: QL is still b0rked
2016-04-05T08:48:22Z DeadTrickster: he is sleep I believe
2016-04-05T08:48:25Z DeadTrickster: ing
2016-04-05T08:49:30Z loke: The fact that the entire community is dependent on one person is slightly concerning. I wonder what Xach is thinking about that.
2016-04-05T08:50:10Z igam: loke: it's open source. You can set up your alternative.
2016-04-05T08:50:11Z DeadTrickster: your concerns very important to us )
2016-04-05T08:50:43Z loke: igam: Of course.
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2016-04-05T08:50:56Z igam: On the other hand, there are not a lot of communities where one person can have easily that importance and impact.
2016-04-05T08:51:09Z pavelpenev: isn't quicklisp hosted on amazon? I think the problem is less one person and more one dominant cloud provider
2016-04-05T08:51:16Z igam: I think this advocates for small countries and small communities.
2016-04-05T08:51:19Z loke: igam: Except the Javascript community where _every_ person has that impact :-)
2016-04-05T08:51:20Z DeadTrickster: guys
2016-04-05T08:51:27Z DeadTrickster: it's on github right?
2016-04-05T08:51:35Z loke: DeadTrickster: Amazong S3
2016-04-05T08:51:36Z DeadTrickster: projects index can be cloned and deployed
2016-04-05T08:51:38Z loke: Amazon
2016-04-05T08:51:44Z DeadTrickster: however you want
2016-04-05T08:51:44Z pavelpenev: isn't github on amazon too?
2016-04-05T08:51:54Z loke: DeadTrickster: Now, this particular problem seems to be more of a DNS update problem though
2016-04-05T08:52:26Z DeadTrickster: well this could be solved by using ip fallbacks
2016-04-05T08:52:40Z DeadTrickster: but this level of engeneering is yet to be discovered )
2016-04-05T08:52:49Z DeadTrickster: engineering
2016-04-05T08:52:57Z DeadTrickster: how cow my spelling today sucks
2016-04-05T08:52:57Z loke: DeadTrickster: We'll know when Xach wakes up I'm sure.
2016-04-05T08:53:21Z DeadTrickster: esp considering how many times you've mentioned him
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2016-04-05T09:16:21Z Petit_Dejeuner: Don't worry loke, documentation incoming soon. https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-client/issues/94
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2016-04-05T09:27:53Z John[Lisbeth]: http://sprunge.us/gNGB can't figure out why this doesn't compile. In my mind it should at least compile up to the definition of empty-to-cord-up
2016-04-05T09:28:45Z lieven: what's the error message?
2016-04-05T09:29:15Z John[Lisbeth]: (in form starting at line: 89, column: 7, file-position: 3792)
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2016-04-05T09:29:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't find anything wrong with line 89
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2016-04-05T09:32:16Z John[Lisbeth]: http://sprunge.us/JKKK
2016-04-05T09:32:34Z loke: John[Lisbeth]: Your code style/indentation makes the code quite horrible to read. I'd recommend you rely more on Emacs automatic indentation.
2016-04-05T09:32:52Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: use M-x check-parens RET
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2016-04-05T09:33:42Z John[Lisbeth]: thank I'll fix my parens with that and get back to you
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2016-04-05T09:36:00Z edgar-rft: John[Lisbeth]: At the end of the empty-to-cord function a closing parenthesis is missing.
2016-04-05T09:36:31Z John[Lisbeth]: That's weird. The syntax highlighting shows that I have the proper number. Let me try that out
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2016-04-05T09:37:07Z John[Lisbeth]: Well at least I have some readible compiler errors now so I should be fine
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2016-04-05T09:50:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Can I sa (defun do-to (function parameter) (function parameter))
2016-04-05T09:52:29Z John[Lisbeth]: Basically accepting a function as an argument to a function
2016-04-05T09:55:39Z XachX: loke: was ist los
2016-04-05T09:56:55Z loke: Xach: QL is down :-(
2016-04-05T09:56:57Z lieven: John[Lisbeth]: yeah but you'd have to do (defun do-to (f p) (funcall f p))
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2016-04-05T09:57:17Z XachX: loke: how so?
2016-04-05T09:57:32Z loke: Connection refused
2016-04-05T09:57:49Z loke: phoe_work mentioned it a few hours ago. It doesn't work for me wither.
2016-04-05T09:58:00Z loke: When trying to do anything
2016-04-05T09:58:30Z XachX: loke: hmmm. Works ok for me. I'll check aws status.
2016-04-05T09:58:43Z loke: He's in poland, I'm in Singapore
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2016-04-05T09:59:59Z XachX: Nothing in the status. I'll check more deeply.
2016-04-05T10:01:11Z XachX: loke: what do you have for beta.quicklisp.org dns?
2016-04-05T10:02:01Z loke: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312541
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2016-04-05T10:04:51Z loke: Xach: A colleague of mine mentioned that it might be is related to Cloudfront starting to require CAPTCHA sometimes.
2016-04-05T10:05:36Z XachX: loke: that is news to me. I will dig.
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2016-04-05T10:06:33Z XachX: loke: can you show me curl output?
2016-04-05T10:06:50Z loke: Xach: To which URL?
2016-04-05T10:07:19Z XachX: loke: any beta url
2016-04-05T10:08:44Z loke: https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/ ??
2016-04-05T10:08:49Z loke: That one?
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2016-04-05T10:09:37Z XachX: No. http://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp
2016-04-05T10:10:04Z loke: Works.
2016-04-05T10:10:06Z loke: This is weird
2016-04-05T10:10:17Z XachX: Ok. What url gets refused?
2016-04-05T10:10:30Z loke: That's what's weird. I just noticed that it's 127.0.0.1
2016-04-05T10:10:34Z loke: that's just bizarre
2016-04-05T10:10:43Z loke: Oh wait...
2016-04-05T10:10:44Z phoe_work: Ummm.
2016-04-05T10:10:48Z phoe_work: Lemme see.
2016-04-05T10:10:59Z phoe_work: > Error: Connection refused (error #111) during attempt to connect to 54.240.166.80:80
2016-04-05T10:10:59Z loke: Let me check if there's a proxy setting
2016-04-05T10:11:12Z phoe_work: Also yes, I'm connecting through a proxy.
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2016-04-05T10:11:18Z phoe_work: I'm at work so that's mandatory.
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2016-04-05T10:11:40Z loke: Xach: where does QL save its proxy settings?
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2016-04-05T10:13:56Z loke: Xach: OK, it was proxy problems for me.
2016-04-05T10:14:01Z loke: Sorry about that.
2016-04-05T10:14:42Z DeadTrickster: ))
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2016-04-05T10:21:45Z XachX: loke: working now?
2016-04-05T10:22:31Z loke: Xach: Yes. Thanks a lot.
2016-04-05T10:25:16Z phoe_work: Yes! Proxy issues for me, too.
2016-04-05T10:25:17Z phoe_work: > Error: on #<BASIC-FILE-CHARACTER-INPUT-STREAM ("/afs/ericpol.int/home/m/h/mher/home/quicklisp/setup.lisp"/4 UTF-8) #x3020004EB85D>, near position 5054 :  >        Bad file descriptor during read
2016-04-05T10:25:17Z phoe_work: ...
2016-04-05T10:25:17Z phoe_work: Thanks!
2016-04-05T10:25:27Z phoe_work: What might *that* mean though?
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2016-04-05T10:28:51Z Xach: phoe_work: /afs/ is a network share?
2016-04-05T10:29:21Z Xach: loke: for what it's worth, if beta.quicklisp.org stops working, there's a chance that a lot of other stuff for a large part of the internet is busted.
2016-04-05T10:29:51Z Xach: not that that makes it good news, but that quicklisp uses a widely-used system
2016-04-05T10:30:07Z loke: I thought you used S3?
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2016-04-05T10:30:50Z Xach: loke: yes. and cloudfront. if s3 and cloudfront break, that is bad news for more than just quicklisp users.
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2016-04-05T10:31:09Z loke: Xach: But QL is the only thing I care about :-)
2016-04-05T10:31:16Z Xach: fair enough!
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2016-04-05T10:31:47Z loke: Xach: And QL seems to have become such an entrenched part of the Lisp ecosystem now that Edi's book would be useless without it :-)
2016-04-05T10:31:48Z phoe_work: Xach: yes, it's a network share, seemingly.
2016-04-05T10:31:48Z phoe_work: And it looks like everything was installed.
2016-04-05T10:31:50Z phoe_work: I mean - I tried reloading the setup and it told me QL was installed. I added it to init file and reloaded; seems to work fine,.
2016-04-05T10:32:08Z phoe_work: Does Edi's book depend on a TRIVIAL-LEFT-PAD in QL's repos?
2016-04-05T10:32:29Z loke: phoe_krk: It depends on plenty of libraries, except trivial-left-pad
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2016-04-05T10:39:45Z phoe_work: loke: :(
2016-04-05T10:40:15Z phoe_work: Xach: you might want to add a note in QL's FAQ. If anyone gets such errors, they should also check their proxy settings.
2016-04-05T10:40:30Z Xach: phoe_work: how did the proxy settings go bad suddenly?
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2016-04-05T10:40:45Z phoe_work: Xach: I'm behind a proxy, right.
2016-04-05T10:40:48Z phoe_work: I didn't check it.
2016-04-05T10:40:55Z Xach: loke: how about for you?
2016-04-05T10:41:17Z loke: Xach: I was configured to use a proxy. A proxy that didn't work... :-/
2016-04-05T10:41:25Z phoe_work: QL exploded with an error for me, saying it gets connection refused or something similar.
2016-04-05T10:41:36Z phoe_work: So - I think it's worth noting in the FAQ that this might happen.
2016-04-05T10:42:03Z Xach: loke: what a rotten coincidence
2016-04-05T10:42:16Z loke: Xach: Yes. Remarkable actually. :-)
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2016-04-05T16:04:49Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-04-05T16:05:39Z vydd: hi beach
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2016-04-05T16:12:21Z moore33: Hi beach
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2016-04-05T16:14:32Z JuanDaugherty: yello beach
2016-04-05T16:15:34Z JuanDaugherty: i thought I might be able to get SIPE-2 and port it to modern stuff such as mcclim but turns out it's no longer avail
2016-04-05T16:15:59Z beach: What is SIPE-2?
2016-04-05T16:16:51Z JuanDaugherty: http://www.ai.sri.com/~sipe/
2016-04-05T16:17:39Z beach: Ah, I see.
2016-04-05T16:17:44Z JuanDaugherty: are you the same person as riastradh in #scheme?
2016-04-05T16:17:50Z beach: Nope.
2016-04-05T16:18:12Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2016-04-05T16:19:00Z JuanDaugherty: i'll use other planning stuffs which will be better anyway but that was lisp gui heavy
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2016-04-05T16:19:47Z theos: is anyone working on visual languages in CL?
2016-04-05T16:20:19Z JuanDaugherty: you mean like labview/G?
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2016-04-05T16:20:34Z JuanDaugherty: or an IDE?
2016-04-05T16:20:41Z beach: JuanDaugherty: The graph on the page you gave the link to resembles what the graph-drawing stuff in McCLIM can do.
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2016-04-05T16:21:31Z JuanDaugherty: yeah if you drill down it's a whole lil ecosys of cl stuffs with several gui programs, not sure what they're using over clx
2016-04-05T16:21:46Z JuanDaugherty: s/they/he/
2016-04-05T16:22:00Z beach: Interesting.
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2016-04-05T16:23:00Z theos: hmm
2016-04-05T16:23:12Z JuanDaugherty: and it's current but closed now, the '97 page that say's you can get it is wrong now
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2016-04-05T16:25:38Z moore33: SRI are/were big CLIM users.
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2016-04-05T16:26:00Z moore33: or is/was ;P
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2016-04-05T16:26:46Z moore33: IIRC Grasper-CL, the graphical component of SIPE, uses CLIM.
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2016-04-05T16:27:12Z JuanDaugherty: moore33, you don't have an old tarball or something do you?
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2016-04-05T16:27:56Z moore33: JuanDaugherty: No. This is second or third hand info I'm repeating.
2016-04-05T16:28:02Z JuanDaugherty: ah
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2016-04-05T16:29:42Z beach: Maybe you can write to Wilkins and ask?
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2016-04-05T16:33:06Z moore33: lol, that sure looks like a classic CLIM interface with its menu pane, command area,...
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2016-04-05T16:43:00Z JuanDaugherty: i spoke to Wilkins yesterday
2016-04-05T16:43:11Z beach: Ah, OK.
2016-04-05T16:43:18Z beach: No luck, then, huh?
2016-04-05T16:43:26Z JuanDaugherty: nope
2016-04-05T16:43:55Z JuanDaugherty: my initial emails may have pissed him off
2016-04-05T16:44:07Z JuanDaugherty: got a lil aspieness goin on here
2016-04-05T16:45:26Z beach: I need to go fix dinner.  I might check in briefly later.
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2016-04-05T16:58:06Z axion: is there a uiop equivalent of cl-fad:merge-pathnames-as-file?
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2016-04-05T17:44:53Z drewc:  axion: not that I can think of, per se, but there is MERGE-PATHNAMES* and FILE-PATHNAME-P, which basically do the same thing AFAICT.
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2016-04-05T17:54:06Z axion: ok thanks
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2016-04-05T18:39:20Z DeadTrickster: sb-thread:list-all-threads counts only sbcl-spawned threads or all threads in the process?
2016-04-05T18:41:16Z warweasle is now known as warweasle_bbib
2016-04-05T18:41:34Z fe[nl]ix: only Lisp threads
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2016-04-05T18:42:39Z DeadTrickster: thx
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2016-04-05T20:08:29Z vydd: cods: hi
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2016-04-05T20:14:20Z DeadTrickster: anyone familiar with this: #<SOCKET-ADDRESS-NOT-AVAILABLE-ERROR 99 :EADDRNOTAVAIL "Cannot assign requested address", FD: 23>
2016-04-05T20:14:21Z DeadTrickster: ?
2016-04-05T20:14:33Z DeadTrickster: never got it before
2016-04-05T20:18:48Z mood: DeadTrickster: EADDRNOTAVAIL is a general socket error.  http://www.toptip.ca/2010/02/linux-eaddrnotavail-address-not.html looks useful
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2016-04-05T20:19:35Z DeadTrickster: mood, yea I mean I performed stress testing on sbcl before however I started receiving this only today
2016-04-05T20:19:45Z DeadTrickster: nothing changed basically
2016-04-05T20:19:55Z mood: Not in any other programs either?
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2016-04-05T20:20:47Z DeadTrickster: nothing
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2016-04-05T20:22:17Z DeadTrickster: maybe I'm indeed ran out of ports
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2016-04-05T20:22:38Z DeadTrickster: even worse - slime repl flooded with error messages right now
2016-04-05T20:22:44Z DeadTrickster: probably million lines
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2016-04-05T20:39:40Z p_l: DeadTrickster: did you ensure old ports got properly cleaned up?
2016-04-05T20:40:11Z DeadTrickster: how can I do this?
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2016-04-05T20:41:52Z DeadTrickster: p_l, ^
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2016-04-05T20:44:09Z p_l: I don't remember off the top of my head, but check with netstat or ss (of on linux) for ports in TIMED_WAIT, and enable tw_reuse in kernel
2016-04-05T20:44:35Z p_l: this can temporarily mitigate sockets that were uncleanly shut down
2016-04-05T20:46:33Z DeadTrickster: thx
2016-04-05T20:46:34Z DeadTrickster: !
2016-04-05T20:47:12Z p_l: DeadTrickster: also, find a copy of tcp/ip illustrated and run with it xD
2016-04-05T20:48:03Z DeadTrickster: p_l, you think it will be scared?
2016-04-05T20:48:11Z DeadTrickster: like it will know I know )
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2016-04-05T20:49:00Z p_l: DeadTrickster: no, but you might need fast legs to outrun the librarian as you steal it xD
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2016-04-05T20:49:17Z DeadTrickster: ah good one
2016-04-05T20:49:19Z DeadTrickster: ok
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2016-04-05T22:11:53Z DeadTrickster: sbcl threads handling is wired
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2016-04-05T22:12:24Z DeadTrickster: sometimes (length (sb-threads:list-all-threads)) differs from /proc info
2016-04-05T22:12:47Z DeadTrickster: and the difference isn't 1 or 2
2016-04-05T22:12:51Z DeadTrickster: probably 2
2016-04-05T22:12:55Z DeadTrickster: ouch
2016-04-05T22:12:58Z DeadTrickster: 5-6
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2016-04-05T22:38:44Z kenanb: I am trying to request and parse some unicode JSON data from Google Maps API using Drakma and YASON, now if I drakma:http-request the data as a stream, set returned streams external-format to utf-8, and yason:parse the stream, I get errors like "colon expected after 'foo'" but if I first flexi-streams:octets-to-string the data with utf-8 external format and then yason:parse the string, there is no error, does YASON not play nice with
2016-04-05T22:38:44Z kenanb: unicode?
2016-04-05T22:38:53Z kenanb: SBCL on Windows btw
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2016-04-05T22:49:52Z phoe_krk: kenanb: see if this persists on CCL
2016-04-05T22:50:04Z phoe_krk: SBCL on Windows had weird Unicode issues for me.
2016-04-05T22:50:20Z phoe_krk: This might be the case of it.
2016-04-05T22:50:28Z drmeister: Generic functions can't be in closures - right?  That would be nonsense.  Methods can be.
2016-04-05T22:51:24Z Bike: generic f unctions themselves don't have anything to close, yeah.
2016-04-05T22:51:39Z Bike: the effective method might be, i guess?
2016-04-05T22:52:26Z DeadTrickster: I think it does that by default - call-next-method has to work somehow
2016-04-05T22:52:41Z drmeister: Why are generic functions in ECL implemented as instances with slots?  I wonder why they don't have a special type for generic functions.
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2016-04-05T22:53:21Z Bike: because generic functions are instances. they're funcallable-instances in mop.
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2016-04-05T22:53:32Z drmeister: funcallable-instances - right.
2016-04-05T22:53:50Z Bike: and they have slots like one for the methods, one for the cached effective whatever it is, one for the combination, etc
2016-04-05T22:54:16Z Bike: i mean, probably. none of those are standard, i'm pretty sure.
2016-04-05T22:54:31Z DeadTrickster: like environments
2016-04-05T22:54:38Z DeadTrickster: most mystic object
2016-04-05T22:55:04Z drmeister: Well, because of the way ECL implements generic functions, every instance of a CLOS object has two useless fields attached to it (isgf and entry).
2016-04-05T22:55:07Z Bike: they're slightly less opaque, you have (set-)funcallable-instance-function.
2016-04-05T22:55:22Z drmeister: On a 64 bit system that's 12-16 bytes.
2016-04-05T22:55:50Z Bike: that's kind of bizarre. funcallable-instance is separate for almost exactly that reason, i believe.
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2016-04-05T22:57:03Z drmeister: Are (set-)funcallable-instance mop functions?
2016-04-05T22:57:07Z Bike: funcallable-standard-object should be where anything like that goes
2016-04-05T22:57:12Z Bike: yes
2016-04-05T22:57:15Z kenanb: phoe_krk: yep, it worked! thank you! :)
2016-04-05T22:57:26Z Bike: standard doesn't have anything like "funcallable instances", what a gf is is left to your imagination
2016-04-05T22:58:17Z Bike: http://mop.lisp.se/concepts.html#funcallable-instances
2016-04-05T22:58:26Z Bike: er, i guess that one thing should be working...
2016-04-05T22:58:33Z Bike: mop funcallable-standard-object
2016-04-05T22:58:33Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-funcallable-standard-object.html
2016-04-05T22:58:44Z Bike: hey, typo.
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2016-04-05T22:59:53Z Bike: whenever i read more than about a page of mop stuff "class" stops looking like a word.
2016-04-05T23:00:03Z phoe_krk: kenanb: :D
2016-04-05T23:00:16Z phoe_krk: Time to tell #sbcl that SBCL on Windows *has* encoding issues.
2016-04-05T23:00:28Z phoe_krk: Both with Unicode and with ASCII.
2016-04-05T23:01:42Z Bike: minion: memo for beach: typo in the first sentence of your page for funcallable-standard-object. also, it would be kind of nice if "funcallable instances" in the funcallable-standard-class page linked to "funcallable instances" in the "subprotocols" section of concepts
2016-04-05T23:01:42Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-04-05T23:02:33Z phoe_krk: Bike: please link me that page you just mentioned
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2016-04-05T23:02:49Z Bike: i mentioned three
2016-04-05T23:03:09Z Bike: if you mean the concept, http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/funcallable-instances.html
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2016-04-05T23:03:25Z phoe_krk: thanks
2016-04-05T23:03:43Z Bike: oh, and it has the funcallable instance function as a closure. whaddya know
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2016-04-06T02:17:34Z SpikeMaster: are there any common lisp imps comparable to luajit?
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2016-04-06T02:19:32Z rme: I don't know of any CL implementations that use LuaJIT's approach.
2016-04-06T02:20:45Z warweasle: rme: You mean compile as soon as you evaluate put in the code?
2016-04-06T02:21:31Z JuanDaugherty: comparing lua and cl is whack
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2016-04-06T02:22:20Z rme: No, LuaJIT compiles traces, not functions.
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2016-04-06T02:23:30Z warweasle: rme: Lisp (usually) compiles right away. You type a function in the repl, bam, compiled.
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2016-04-06T02:24:22Z SpikeMaster: luajit has a special way. I'm not familiar withthe details, but it supposedly is a masterpeice of jitter technology that evne has goold and Firefox people scrambling to scrape it's ideas.
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2016-04-06T02:25:13Z SpikeMaster: and it just starts runnign immediately, no waiting for compile.
2016-04-06T02:25:31Z warweasle: SpikeMaster: lisp does that.
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2016-04-06T02:26:01Z SpikeMaster: i don't think it's the same though. Lisps just do a "normal" compile to native code when you give it some code.
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2016-04-06T02:26:42Z warweasle: SpikeMaster: What's an abnormal compile?
2016-04-06T02:27:05Z Bike: SpikeMaster: it's difficult for us to say whether something is alike to something you can't describe
2016-04-06T02:27:06Z warweasle: SpikeMaster: You have to do something with the code in order to execute it.
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2016-04-06T02:29:03Z SpikeMaster: it's too low level for me to undertant. I have the impression that it uses an interpreter to start runnign immediatelty, no big compile of the code up front.  But then it starts compileing.
2016-04-06T02:29:21Z warweasle: SpikeMaster: It says LuaJIT is faster than interpreted languages. Lisp isn't usually interpreted.
2016-04-06T02:29:45Z Bike: so, a JIT. i don't know of a lisp implementation with a JIT.
2016-04-06T02:29:53Z loke: Bike: ABCL
2016-04-06T02:30:00Z aeth: that's cheating
2016-04-06T02:30:03Z Bike: true, though.
2016-04-06T02:30:04Z Zhivago: CLISP, also.
2016-04-06T02:30:43Z warweasle: Bike: How is lisp not a just-in-time compiler?
2016-04-06T02:30:47Z loke: Zhivago: Clisp didn't have a JIT, did it? It compiled just like SBCL, but it compiled to an low lever format instead of to machine code.
2016-04-06T02:30:57Z Zhivago: When someone starts talking about "interpreted language" it's clear that they have no clue what they're talking about.
2016-04-06T02:31:06Z Zhivago: lisp isn't a compiler; it is a language.
2016-04-06T02:31:26Z Bike: warweasle: implementations usually compile when you ask them to (by compile-file, etc.) or sometimes all at once ahead of time when you enter code (sbcl repl)
2016-04-06T02:31:38Z warweasle: Zhivago: I mis-typed. How is lisp not equivalent to a JIT language.
2016-04-06T02:31:52Z Bike: "JIT language" doesn't make any more sense than "interpreted language"
2016-04-06T02:32:00Z aeth: Zhivago: Certain languages are designed for (ahead of time) compilation, like C, and certain for interpretation, like JavaScript or Lua. Even though you can compile or interpret whatever you want.
2016-04-06T02:32:05Z Zhivago: JIT is an implementation issue.
2016-04-06T02:32:35Z aeth: Common Lisp is a compiled language by requirement in the spec, though, afaik.
2016-04-06T02:32:46Z warweasle: You can write a lisp app to do just that. Start the main loop and then JIT compile everything as it runs.
2016-04-06T02:33:12Z Zhivago: aeth: Providing that 'compiled language' is meaningless, that's true.
2016-04-06T02:33:23Z Bike: usually jit compiling is an on the fly optimization thing. oh, this part of the interpreted bytecode gets run a lot, better replace it with native
2016-04-06T02:33:26Z Zhivago: aeth: You might want to read the chapter on CL compilation semantics, though.
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2016-04-06T02:33:40Z Bike: not just "you can compile at runtime"
2016-04-06T02:33:50Z aeth: Zhivago: Well, only meaningless if intent is meaningless.
2016-04-06T02:34:45Z Bike: words are meaningless. form is emptiness and emptiness is form, gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā
2016-04-06T02:35:03Z warweasle: Bike: Perhaps another process which watches where most of the cpu time is spent and then recompiles those parts with higher optimization levels?
2016-04-06T02:35:20Z rme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_just-in-time_compilation doesn't mention LuaJIT by name, but LuaJIT uses the basic ideas (and implements them quite well).
2016-04-06T02:35:20Z Zhivago: warweasle: Again, implementation issues. :)
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2016-04-06T02:35:44Z Zhivago: v8 is another that uses tracing jit.
2016-04-06T02:36:07Z aeth: warweasle: That sounds like a bad idea. I only turn on (speed 3) (safety 0) for a function if I know that nothing could possibly go wrong (and I have been wrong before, still)
2016-04-06T02:37:02Z aeth: There are lots of places where I don't know all the possible things that could go wrong, and I don't want the compiler e.g. taking off bounds checks there
2016-04-06T02:37:04Z warweasle: Bike: Ie! Ie! The Goat with a Thousand Young! Ie! Ie!
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2016-04-06T02:52:57Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-04-06T02:52:57Z minion: beach, memo from Bike: typo in the first sentence of your page for funcallable-standard-object. also, it would be kind of nice if "funcallable instances" in the funcallable-standard-class page linked to "funcallable instances" in the "subprotocols" section of concepts
2016-04-06T02:53:16Z beach: Bike: Fixed!  Thanks!
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2016-04-06T03:06:03Z pillton: G'day beach.
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2016-04-06T03:25:18Z beach: vydd: Any progress on your decision?
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2016-04-06T03:53:36Z John[Lisbeth]: why can't I do (defun the-file () ("poop"))
2016-04-06T03:54:13Z H4ns: John[Lisbeth]: a string is not a function, so ("poop") is not a valid expression.
2016-04-06T03:54:33Z John[Lisbeth]: What function can I prepend to "poop" to cause the output of the-file to be the raw string?
2016-04-06T03:55:03Z rme: Just say (defun the-file () "poop")
2016-04-06T03:55:56Z John[Lisbeth]: That blows my mind. thanks
2016-04-06T03:58:05Z loke: John[Lisbeth]: That's not the "output", since "output" usually refers to writing to streams (files, screen, network, etc...). Rather, it's the "return value" of the function.
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2016-04-06T03:59:07Z John[Lisbeth]: noted
2016-04-06T04:00:27Z aeth: John[Lisbeth]: Everything's an expression, so almost everything in the language automatically returns something. Afaik, the only exception is (values) with 0 arguments.
2016-04-06T04:01:04Z aeth: So the implicit return (no need for a (return "foo") or something like that) in defun isn't surprising when viewed that way.
2016-04-06T04:01:14Z Zhivago: Not quite everything.
2016-04-06T04:01:44Z aeth: Zhivago: Can you think of something other than (values)? We had this discussion in here the other day, and could only think of (values)
2016-04-06T04:01:54Z Zhivago: Declarations.
2016-04-06T04:02:42Z Zhivago: Most of the syntax, such as &rest, etc.
2016-04-06T04:03:25Z aeth: Afaik, &rest is just a symbol that certain macros treat specially.
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2016-04-06T04:04:25Z aeth: declare/declaim, I'll grant you those
2016-04-06T04:04:57Z Zhivago: Sure, making &rest not an expression in that context.
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2016-04-06T04:05:53Z aeth: (defun foo () (values)) returns literally "no value", but (defun foo () (declare)) seems to just have (declare) be ignored and assumes it's (defun foo ()), i.e. (defun foo () nil)
2016-04-06T04:06:38Z Zhivago: Sure -- the declare is part of the syntax of defun.
2016-04-06T04:06:55Z aeth: Zhivago: Technically, isn't &rest an expression in that context, just one that remains unevaluated and will never be evaluated? Similar to the trivial Lisp program: '&rest
2016-04-06T04:07:17Z aeth: or wait, that's a bad example
2016-04-06T04:07:28Z aeth: (progn '&rest "foo")
2016-04-06T04:07:40Z Zhivago: I would say that it is not an expression but simply part of the syntax.
2016-04-06T04:07:40Z aeth: &rest won't be evaluated, but (quote &rest) will be.
2016-04-06T04:07:56Z Zhivago: Sure, which is an expression.
2016-04-06T04:08:58Z aeth: Okay. Everything's an expression that returns a value, except for (values) with 0 arguments, which is the only thing that returns nothing, *or* anything that's being used purely as syntax, like &rest or the keywords in loop.
2016-04-06T04:09:02Z aeth: Zhivago: Is that more accurate?
2016-04-06T04:09:25Z Zhivago: Sure, although it's getting kind of weak.
2016-04-06T04:09:49Z Zhivago: What I'd suggest is to instead say that lisp does not have a distinction between statements and expressions.
2016-04-06T04:10:33Z aeth: Only between expressions that are evaluated and ones that are quoted, whether explicitly with ', etc., or implicitly as part of a macro
2016-04-06T04:10:45Z aeth: Right?
2016-04-06T04:10:50Z Zhivago: I think that you're confusing expressions and s-expressions.
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2016-04-06T04:11:17Z Zhivago: If you say 'expression', then I naturally understand it as something which can be evaluated.
2016-04-06T04:11:33Z aeth: s-expressions are expressions, aren't they?
2016-04-06T04:11:39Z Zhivago: But if you're talking about s-expressions, then you're talking about essentially a lexical construct.
2016-04-06T04:11:46Z Zhivago: In many cases they are not.
2016-04-06T04:12:01Z Zhivago: Think of an s-expression as being like text.
2016-04-06T04:12:16Z Zhivago: &rest in (defun foo (&rest x)) is an s-expression.
2016-04-06T04:13:00Z aeth: and that defun is an expression that returns FOO
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2016-04-06T04:13:09Z Zhivago: Certainly.
2016-04-06T04:13:28Z Zhivago: In contrast to systems which have a statement/expression divide, where it might not be.
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2016-04-06T04:16:16Z aeth: I think looking at it my way is useful, though. e.g. (and nil (loop)) or (and nil (some-undefined-function)) or (or t (loop)) etc.
2016-04-06T04:17:06Z aeth: Technically (loop) is quoted, and won't ever be evaluated, because of the way and works so there will be no infinite loop
2016-04-06T04:17:21Z Zhivago: Um, what?
2016-04-06T04:17:38Z Zhivago: It isn't quoted -- it simply isn't evaluated.
2016-04-06T04:17:39Z aeth: There's not really much of a difference between (loop) in my (and nil (loop)) and &rest in your defun
2016-04-06T04:18:21Z Zhivago: There is an enormous difference -- AND is specified to recieve N arguemnts which are expressions.
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2016-04-06T04:19:35Z aeth: Zhivago: but everything is an expression, and and is a macro which does lazy evaluation so (loop) won't ever be evaluated, just like &rest won't ever be evaluated.
2016-04-06T04:19:59Z Zhivago: Except that not everything is an expression.
2016-04-06T04:20:15Z Zhivago: And (loop) is specified to be an expression, and &rest isn't.
2016-04-06T04:20:16Z aeth: You can do (and nil &rest) and Lisp won't complain that &rest isn't defined, just like it won't complain in defun
2016-04-06T04:20:27Z Zhivago: That's because you're using &rest as an expression there ...
2016-04-06T04:20:34Z Zhivago: It's all about context.
2016-04-06T04:20:42Z aeth: but it won't ever be *used* as an expression, because nil is always false
2016-04-06T04:20:56Z Zhivago: So what? That lexical location is specified to describe an expression.
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2016-04-06T04:23:10Z beach: *sigh*
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2016-04-06T04:31:38Z aeth: Zhivago: I looked it up. It's defined to be a form, which is defined as "any object meant to be evaluated". http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_f.htm#form
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2016-04-06T04:32:55Z Zhivago: What is?
2016-04-06T04:33:20Z aeth: (and &rest forms)
2016-04-06T04:33:37Z aeth: although technically, defun is also defined as taking forms, after the lambda list, and optional declarations and documentation
2016-04-06T04:33:57Z Zhivago: Ok, in other words, expressions ...
2016-04-06T04:34:18Z aeth: I was wrong, based on the hyperspec I should be saying "Every form except for (values) returns a value."
2016-04-06T04:34:26Z aeth: What you're calling expressions, the hyperspec calls forms.
2016-04-06T04:34:40Z Zhivago: Well, you started calling things expressions. :)
2016-04-06T04:34:54Z aeth: I was thinking more in terms of s-expressions.
2016-04-06T04:34:56Z Zhivago: A form is the lexical representation of an expression.
2016-04-06T04:35:07Z Zhivago: Ok. Well, glad that's cleared up.
2016-04-06T04:35:46Z aeth: This is probably why the Hyperspec uses the word "form" instead of "expression". To avoid people arguing over two different definitions of expression like we were doing.
2016-04-06T04:36:01Z aeth: When we use the word form instead, this whole argument was pointless.
2016-04-06T04:36:33Z aeth: *And* my statement becomes more concise since I can be talking about forms only, in which case as I already said (values) is the only exception that I know of
2016-04-06T04:37:00Z Zhivago: It also uses 'expression'. :)
2016-04-06T04:37:22Z aeth: And you are right that the arguments to and are forms.
2016-04-06T04:37:49Z aeth: Zhivago: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_e.htm#expression
2016-04-06T04:38:11Z Zhivago: Indeed.
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2016-04-06T04:42:33Z aeth: r7rs.pdf seems to use expressions where the Hyperspec uses forms, like in its description of and
2016-04-06T04:43:05Z aeth: The Hyperspec seems to use "expression" in and only when talking about s-expressions, so the source code: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_and.htm
2016-04-06T04:43:54Z John[Lisbeth]: What is the syntax for case/switch?
2016-04-06T04:44:29Z Zhivago: case?
2016-04-06T04:44:30Z John[Lisbeth]: (case x y z else)?
2016-04-06T04:44:44Z Zhivago: If only there was something written down on something like the internet?
2016-04-06T04:45:01Z Zhivago: Then if there were something to help you search for it, you could look it up in a few seconds.
2016-04-06T04:45:29Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Why is it that you do not look in the Common Lisp HyperSpec for such things?
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2016-04-06T04:45:46Z John[Lisbeth]: Sometimes the hyperspec is not clear to me, but I found it
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2016-04-06T04:45:47Z aeth: John[Lisbeth]: go to duckduckgo, type in "!l1sp case" and you will be redirected to a search of Lisp documentation for case, which includes the Hyperspec and PCL. https://lmddgtfy.net/?q=!l1sp%20case
2016-04-06T04:46:41Z aeth: You can also do "!lisp case" and other searches like that
2016-04-06T04:47:06Z aeth: !lisp provides the description: (case keyform &body cases)
2016-04-06T04:47:50Z beach: John[Lisbeth]: Also, you have all of Quicklisp to scan for examples.  There, you can also get an idea of the typical style for writing Common Lisp code.  I strongly recommend you respect that style, especially when you want to submit code for others to look at.
2016-04-06T04:48:32Z aeth: oh, there's a direct !clhs search of the hyperspec too. Here are all the ways you can search Lisp documentation, although for some reason it doesn't include !l1sp: https://duckduckgo.com/bang?c=Tech&sc=Languages+%28Lisp%29
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2016-04-06T04:49:14Z John[Lisbeth]: the syntax confuses me becuase in each clause there is two arguments
2016-04-06T04:49:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't understand what the first arugment is for
2016-04-06T04:49:35Z Zhivago: The value to match.
2016-04-06T04:50:00Z Zhivago: (case 'a (a 1)) -> 1
2016-04-06T04:51:41Z John[Lisbeth]: This example confuses me http://www.n-a-n-o.com/lisp/cmucl-tutorials/LISP-tutorial-17.html
2016-04-06T04:51:50Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know what d and b are
2016-04-06T04:52:38Z John[Lisbeth]: It's on the last example on the page
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2016-04-06T04:53:31Z Zhivago: switch (x) { case A: return 5; case D: case E: return 7; case B: case F: return 3; default: return 9 }
2016-04-06T04:54:30Z Zhivago: I'd read the hyperspec on case rather than the tutorial.
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2016-04-06T04:59:52Z drmeister: Question: Would there ever be a situation where CHANGE-CLASS would be used to change an instance of a non-funcallable class to an instance of a funcallable class?
2016-04-06T05:00:10Z drmeister: The CLHS doesn't appear to say anything about it?
2016-04-06T05:01:10Z drmeister: s/?/./
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2016-04-06T05:02:33Z drmeister: I ask because I'm re-evaluating how I implement CLOS classes and instances.   I currently implement them the way ECL implements them - which means that there are a few fields in each instance of a CLOS class that are unused and wasted.   I could separate instances from funcallable-instances - but then there would be no way to change one into the other using
2016-04-06T05:02:33Z drmeister: CHANGE-CLASS.
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2016-04-06T05:03:07Z drmeister: If CHANGE-CLASS is not allowed to do this then it would be fine to implement them as separate C++ classes.
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2016-04-06T05:04:43Z John[Lisbeth]: sorry I experienced a crash
2016-04-06T05:05:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I am reading this article and in the last example I can't figure out what d and b are http://www.n-a-n-o.com/lisp/cmucl-tutorials/LISP-tutorial-17.html
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2016-04-06T05:13:10Z John[Lisbeth]: Is it saying in the second clause that if the function d applied to the value e is true that it will return 7?
2016-04-06T05:14:08Z Bike: John[Lisbeth]: no, it's just saying "if the key is the symbol B or the symbol F, return 3"
2016-04-06T05:14:17Z Bike: John[Lisbeth]: i.e. you can have multiple objects for a case
2016-04-06T05:14:29Z John[Lisbeth]: is it always or?
2016-04-06T05:14:38Z Bike: What?
2016-04-06T05:14:49Z Bike: mop change-class
2016-04-06T05:14:49Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for change-class.
2016-04-06T05:15:04Z beach: clhs change-class
2016-04-06T05:15:04Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chg_cl.htm
2016-04-06T05:15:15Z Bike: drmeister: change-class is only defined in clhs to have methods on standard-object and standard-class, so maybe it's ok to neglect that particular pathology
2016-04-06T05:15:21Z Bike: i don't think anybody does that anyway
2016-04-06T05:15:32Z Bike: beach: i was seeing if there was stuff in mop that's not in clhs
2016-04-06T05:16:04Z beach: Oh, sorry.
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2016-04-06T05:18:08Z beach: drmeister: The unused slots (not "fields") would not take up a lot of room.  If you are wasting 100 bytes per generic function, and you may have 10000 generic functions, that will be a whole Mega Byte.  I am guessing that this space would represent less than 0.01% of the RAM on your machine.
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2016-04-06T05:19:00Z Bike: what drmeister was dealing with is that in ecl, every instance, not just funcallable instances, has a few bytes for generic function stuff.
2016-04-06T05:19:14Z beach: Oh, that's different.
2016-04-06T05:19:27Z beach: Every standard instance, or every object?
2016-04-06T05:19:42Z drmeister: Hi - sorry missed those - reading...
2016-04-06T05:19:56Z Bike: "every instance of a CLOS object has two useless fields attached to it (isgf and entry)", is what he said a few hours back.
2016-04-06T05:20:10Z beach: Every Common Lisp object is a CLOS object.
2016-04-06T05:20:25Z beach: Including characters, fixnums, etc.
2016-04-06T05:20:26Z Bike: but yeah, i was figuring just regular ol instances
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2016-04-06T05:20:43Z beach: Every Common Lisp object is a CLOS instance.
2016-04-06T05:21:05Z drmeister: beach: Not including characters, fixnums etc.  Only instances of CLOS classes.
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2016-04-06T05:21:17Z beach: drmeister: CHARACTER is a CLOS class.
2016-04-06T05:21:37Z Bike: standard-objects, ok
2016-04-06T05:21:48Z drmeister: Right, but in memory, CHARACTER isn't laid out like say an instance of (defclass foo ...)
2016-04-06T05:21:56Z Bike: or some internal superclass thereof, probably
2016-04-06T05:22:16Z drmeister: So standard-objects I guess.
2016-04-06T05:22:24Z beach: Thank you.
2016-04-06T05:22:49Z drmeister: Clasp follows the ECL approach.
2016-04-06T05:23:03Z drmeister: Which is...
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2016-04-06T05:23:25Z drmeister: C code...
2016-04-06T05:23:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lu3qspK8/
2016-04-06T05:23:57Z drmeister: Phew!   So isgf and entry are only use (AFAIK) for generic functions.
2016-04-06T05:24:20Z drmeister: Clasp adds one more field (lambda_list) to store the generic function lambda list.
2016-04-06T05:24:27Z beach: The name is not very explicit so it is hard to say.
2016-04-06T05:24:40Z Bike: who knows what _ECL_HDR1 does
2016-04-06T05:25:04Z drmeister: entry?    I know entry is used to store the function for the funcallable-instance.
2016-04-06T05:25:19Z drmeister: I don't know if it serves some other purpose for regular non-funcallable instances.
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2016-04-06T05:25:55Z drmeister: Because the ECL CLOS code is written for this ecl_instance type - I copied the approach.
2016-04-06T05:25:58Z beach: It could be that they want to avoid a test for funcallable-ness and just call it every time.
2016-04-06T05:26:07Z drmeister: But the useless fields irk me.
2016-04-06T05:27:04Z beach: Some of these things are trade-offs between space and execution time.
2016-04-06T05:29:35Z drmeister: I've been working with the principle that space is time.
2016-04-06T05:30:31Z Bike: don't need no new age einstein shit here
2016-04-06T05:30:35Z Zhivago: In a functional system, time is certainly converted into space.
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2016-04-06T05:31:05Z Bike: but i think removing a few bytes from something as ubiquitous as instances is probably a good idea, unless the alternative is noticeable slowdowns in like, everything
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2016-04-06T05:35:38Z drmeister: I rearranged Clasp's class hierarchy to remove weirdness.   Closures now are first class objects and inherit from Functions.  This should speed things up because I now store slots directly in the closure rather than pointing to an array of slots somewhere else in memory.
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2016-04-06T05:36:07Z drmeister: It will also make it easier to allocate closure's on the stack.
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2016-04-06T05:36:15Z Bike: but the function code is still elsewhere?
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2016-04-06T05:36:53Z drmeister: Yeah, the function code is elsewhere - that's a tricky llvm issue to get it to be managed by the GC.
2016-04-06T05:37:24Z drmeister: I have a plan but I simply haven't had the time to implement it.
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2016-04-06T05:42:05Z drmeister: Thank you gentlemen for your feedback.  I'm off to bed.
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2016-04-06T06:07:07Z John[Lisbeth]: Alright here's my first attempt at a case expression http://paste.lisp.org/display/312597
2016-04-06T06:07:18Z John[Lisbeth]: doesn't compile unfortunately
2016-04-06T06:08:08Z Bike: the first element isn't evaluated
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2016-04-06T06:08:28Z Bike: and things are compared with eql, so you probably can't use lists as keys
2016-04-06T06:10:59Z Zhivago: Are you sure that's a sensible representation to be using in the first place?
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2016-04-06T06:11:36Z John[Lisbeth]: I am not sure if case is the right piece of logic to be used
2016-04-06T06:11:43Z John[Lisbeth]: but do you see what I am going for?
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2016-04-06T06:13:11Z Zhivago: Sure -- the simple option would be to use cond with a list compare.
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2016-04-06T06:18:34Z John[Lisbeth]: Ok here's my attempt with cond: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312598
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2016-04-06T06:20:36Z Bike: you should look up what cond actually is
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2016-04-06T06:23:27Z John[Lisbeth]: Gee if only that had occured to me
2016-04-06T06:24:10Z Bike: i'm just saying, that's not how cond works at all, it looks like you're just using trial and error.
2016-04-06T06:24:13Z Bike: clhs cond
2016-04-06T06:24:13Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
2016-04-06T06:24:23Z John[Lisbeth]: I am already at that page
2016-04-06T06:24:57Z Bike: okay, so you should see that your code doesn't make sense, and how to fix it.
2016-04-06T06:26:31Z John[Lisbeth]: That depends on what your definition of should is
2016-04-06T06:27:34Z Bike: cond has a syntax like (cond (condition ...block...) (condition ...block...) ...). each condition is checked, first to last, and when one of them is true that block is evaluated and gives the return value.
2016-04-06T06:28:05Z Bike: so for example, if you wanted to do a silly add-one function, you could have (defun add1 (x) (cond ((= x 0) 1) ((= x 1) 2) ...))
2016-04-06T06:28:12Z John[Lisbeth]: OH I see so it needs to be a bool?
2016-04-06T06:28:16Z Bike: then if x equals zero, it returns one, and so on.
2016-04-06T06:28:26Z Bike: yes. hopefully one that makes sense.
2016-04-06T06:28:40Z John[Lisbeth]: yeah I understand where I messed up
2016-04-06T06:28:42Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-04-06T06:28:43Z Bike: lisp interprets anything that isn't NIL as true, so your code will just always go with the first clause.
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2016-04-06T06:29:04Z John[Lisbeth]: can I have an otherwise?
2016-04-06T06:29:19Z Bike: just use something that's always true as the condition. usually t.
2016-04-06T06:29:29Z Bike: (cond ((= x 0) whatever) (t default stuff))
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2016-04-06T06:30:20Z zRecursive: clhs cl-match
2016-04-06T06:30:20Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for cl-match.
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2016-04-06T06:42:12Z zRecursive: https://github.com/m2ym/optima
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2016-04-06T07:20:41Z John[Lisbeth]: (defun get-direction (list-of-directions)
2016-04-06T07:20:41Z John[Lisbeth]:  (cond
2016-04-06T07:20:41Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list nil nil nil t)) (right))
2016-04-06T07:20:41Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list nil nil t nil)) (left))
2016-04-06T07:20:44Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list nil t nil nil)) (down))
2016-04-06T07:20:47Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list nil t nil t))   (down-right))
2016-04-06T07:20:51Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list nil t t nil))   (down-left))
2016-04-06T07:20:54Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list t nil nil nil)) (up))
2016-04-06T07:20:57Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list t nil nil t))   (up-right))
2016-04-06T07:21:00Z John[Lisbeth]:   ((equal (list-of-directions) (list t nil t nil))   (up-left))
2016-04-06T07:21:03Z loke: John[Lisbeth]: Stop it! Use a pastebin
2016-04-06T07:21:03Z John[Lisbeth]:   (t nil)
2016-04-06T07:21:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Sorry I have issues with my mouse
2016-04-06T07:21:27Z John[Lisbeth]: thtat was not intentinoal
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2016-04-06T07:26:43Z Xof: while we're here, though, consider encoding your directions as a four-bit integer
2016-04-06T07:26:46Z kenanb: John[Lisbeth]: I suggest you start from the very fundamentals, you obviously have problems between distinguishing a function call and requesting the value of a variable
2016-04-06T07:27:20Z Xof: then you can implement that as (funcall (aref direction-fun directions))
2016-04-06T07:27:20Z kenanb: or probably also with the concept of a quoted list
2016-04-06T07:28:57Z Zhivago: A little (macrolet ((match (pattern value)) `(when (equals (list-of-directions) ',pattern) (return ,value))) ... might go a long way
2016-04-06T07:29:03Z kenanb: John[Lisbeth]: you checked out Practical Common Lisp?
2016-04-06T07:29:11Z John[Lisbeth]: Yeah I am on chapter 2
2016-04-06T07:29:22Z John[Lisbeth]: But I already have alot of experience in haskell in c-like languages
2016-04-06T07:29:23Z Zhivago: Then you could write (match (nil nil nil t) (right)) (match (nil nil t nil) (left)), etc.
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2016-04-06T07:34:18Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll just have to read some more PCL, I guess. I have had no problems writing any of my code up until get-direction which I have spent three days working on.
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2016-04-06T07:34:49Z igam: ok
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2016-04-06T08:06:40Z vydd: minion: memo for beach: yes, I read the docs and played a little. I'm probably going to use the paths package in my project, and maybe even the rasterizer for a backend
2016-04-06T08:06:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-04-06T08:09:40Z vydd: minion: memo for beach: the code looks alright and I believe I can maintain it - and would like to do that, but let's talk about it when we're both online, ok?
2016-04-06T08:09:40Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell beach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-04-06T08:57:38Z malice: Macro noob here; what's wrong with this simple context creating macro? I'm trying to make a wrapper for socket creation/deletion: http://ix.io/vB1
2016-04-06T08:58:24Z malice: I call it like this: http://ix.io/vB2 and get an error: undefined function newsock...
2016-04-06T08:58:33Z malice: Sorry, variable*
2016-04-06T08:59:08Z malice: Actually, my reading skills might be an obstacle
2016-04-06T09:00:01Z malice: Yeah, I guess I fixed it now. Thanks :D
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2016-04-06T09:17:27Z igam: malice: name is the name of a variable, you don't want to evaluate it at all!
2016-04-06T09:18:27Z igam: ie. don't give it to only-once.
2016-04-06T09:20:29Z malice: igam: I see. But the problem is that actually the documentation of usocket is terrible
2016-04-06T09:20:54Z malice: I've been reading the code to see how a function works and discovered that these macros are already written, but I couldn't find anything about them on the page..
2016-04-06T09:21:30Z igam: that's because, like a lot of other CL libraries, it's a thin wrapper over functionality provided by the system or C libraries. So it is (wrongly, admitedly) expected that you already know how to use the feature.
2016-04-06T09:22:22Z igam: I would name your macro: accepting-connection, since it performs the accept.
2016-04-06T09:24:46Z malice: igam: I know the C interface, but somehow Lisp's usocket feels strange to me; it isn't just C->CL, or I get things wrong
2016-04-06T09:26:06Z malice: Plus, as I said - I don't need my macro anymore since they've got it. It's just a shame that they never mention them.
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2016-04-06T09:26:42Z igam: Consider it a bug in the documentation, provide a patch (merge request?)
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2016-04-06T09:42:16Z malice: igam: I was actually talking about their site on cl.net:  https://common-lisp.net/project/usocket/api-docs.shtml#faqs
2016-04-06T09:42:19Z malice: Maybe I shouldn't rely on this
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2016-04-06T16:00:27Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-04-06T16:00:28Z minion: beach, memo from vydd: yes, I read the docs and played a little. I'm probably going to use the paths package in my project, and maybe even the rasterizer for a backend
2016-04-06T16:00:28Z minion: beach, memo from vydd: the code looks alright and I believe I can maintain it - and would like to do that, but let's talk about it when we're both online, ok?
2016-04-06T16:02:11Z moore33: beach: That is apropos cl-vectors?
2016-04-06T16:02:18Z beach: Yes.
2016-04-06T16:02:24Z moore33 nods.
2016-04-06T16:03:20Z cods: I've no particular preference about that.
2016-04-06T16:03:41Z beach: About who will maintain it?
2016-04-06T16:03:45Z cods: if anyone can maintain it a way or another, it's fine for me.
2016-04-06T16:03:51Z beach: OK.
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2016-04-06T16:04:00Z beach: Either way, vydd won't be alone.
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2016-04-06T16:06:28Z cods: Regarding the doc, I can provide the files used to produce it (that must be somewhere on one of my machines.. I hope). It was written with a custom markup, closes to moinmoin, and could be easily adapted to another markup I think.
2016-04-06T16:06:49Z beach: Those files would be essential, in effect.
2016-04-06T16:07:10Z beach: Some of the suggested improvements I had were for the documentation.
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2016-04-06T16:17:31Z cods: No luck so far to find the raw documentation for cl-vectors.. (It was 8 years ago). In the worst case, I can parse the HTML files and produce something more modern (markdown?). That should not be too hard.
2016-04-06T16:20:10Z Quadrescence: one thing that badly needs to happen is to have a really high performance linear algebra library for lisp
2016-04-06T16:20:31Z Quadrescence: ideally using BLAS/LAPACK but plays well with the garbage collector
2016-04-06T16:20:43Z beach: cods: You shouldn't ask me what to use until it turns out *I* am the maintainer.  I am allergic to discussions about input syntax for documentation.
2016-04-06T16:21:26Z beach: cods: It seems, not matter what is decided, the vast majority is against that particular choice.
2016-04-06T16:22:02Z cods: beach: what is the preferred choice for Lisp projects?
2016-04-06T16:22:32Z cods: I can provide it as s-exprs otherwise :)
2016-04-06T16:23:11Z beach: cods: Like I said, there is absolutely no agreement, and no matter what is chosen, the vast majority is going to be against that choice.  I have no solution to propose at the moment.
2016-04-06T16:23:19Z beach: ... but I am working on it. :)
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2016-04-06T16:25:51Z igam: cods: there are several tools to convert documentation format.  cf. eg. pandoc.
2016-04-06T16:26:10Z igam: cods: SGML has been specified as a universal document format.
2016-04-06T16:26:38Z igam: cods: My advice: use any format you want that is supported by a tool like pandoc, and convert as you need.
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2016-04-06T16:29:12Z cods: igam: pandoc looks interesting. I will try it. Thanks.
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2016-04-06T16:38:43Z jackdaniel: halt and catch fire
2016-04-06T16:39:08Z ryoshu: jackdaniel: are you programmking m68k/netbsd?
2016-04-06T16:39:12Z ryoshu: programming
2016-04-06T16:39:45Z jackdaniel: nope, why? (sorry, wrong channel)
2016-04-06T16:40:05Z ryoshu: jackdaniel: it's a m68k instruction
2016-04-06T16:40:26Z jackdaniel: right
2016-04-06T16:40:27Z beach: Some two weeks ago, I asked about the macro in this paste, specifically the lone variables at the beginning of the LET* body.  But today, I discovered more problems with it.  In the LET, there is a reference to MEDIUM without a preceding comma.  It works just because all uses of this macro has the symbol MEDIUM as its first argument.
2016-04-06T16:40:38Z beach: er, http://paste.lisp.org/display/311354
2016-04-06T16:41:07Z beach: Furthermore, there is an UNWIND-PROTECT with no cleanup forms.
2016-04-06T16:41:19Z beach: That ought to be the same as a PROGN.
2016-04-06T16:41:41Z beach: It is interesting what one can discover while maintaining other people's code.
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2016-04-06T16:43:25Z moore33: ouch
2016-04-06T16:43:45Z Bike: ouch indeed.
2016-04-06T16:43:51Z beach: Yep.
2016-04-06T16:45:59Z dlowe: addendum: over a sufficient period of time, you become another person.
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2016-04-06T16:46:24Z beach: That's true too, but in this particular case, I had nothing to do with it.
2016-04-06T16:46:39Z beach: That's not that important, though.
2016-04-06T16:46:41Z moore33: beach: That must be fairly old code.
2016-04-06T16:46:48Z beach: It is, yes.
2016-04-06T16:46:57Z beach: Dinner.  I'll be back later.
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2016-04-06T18:23:49Z dim: hi, has anyone played with AWS Lambda services? is it possible for that to host an SBCL based application?
2016-04-06T18:25:03Z aeth: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lambda/latest/dg/welcome.html
2016-04-06T18:25:12Z aeth: "lambda function" because that's not confusing at all
2016-04-06T18:25:33Z dim: my context being https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/383
2016-04-06T18:25:34Z aeth: skimming the document, "languages supported by AWS Lambda (that is, Node.js, Java, and Python)"
2016-04-06T18:26:40Z dim: https://docs.aws.amazon.com/lambda/latest/dg/current-supported-versions.html
2016-04-06T18:26:45Z dim: you can also provide binaries
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2016-04-06T18:30:52Z dim: ah, this blog entry seems to be the read I was looking for https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/compute/running-executables-in-aws-lambda/
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2016-04-06T18:33:55Z jasom: 50MB compressed size limit though
2016-04-06T18:34:02Z jasom: 250MB uncompressed
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2016-04-06T18:35:55Z jasom: and they do charge by amount of RAM used (in units of GB*s)
2016-04-06T18:36:27Z aeth: no wonder they support Java then :-p
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2016-04-06T18:37:10Z jasom: aeth: surely java is not any more profligate with heap usage than SBCL?
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2016-04-06T18:37:34Z dim: 43528 ./build/bin/pgloader
2016-04-06T18:37:40Z dim: soon to be 50MB it seems
2016-04-06T18:37:59Z Xach: warweasle: problems in clinchland
2016-04-06T18:38:04Z jasom: I suppose it depens on the JVM gc settings
2016-04-06T18:38:25Z dim: sbcl is pretty bad at GC in pgloader
2016-04-06T18:38:32Z jasom: dim: you aren't limited to sbcl's built-in compression though; if you can get it smaller in a .zip file, you should be okay
2016-04-06T18:38:33Z dim: ccl is much better
2016-04-06T18:38:33Z Xach: warweasle: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-04-06/failure-report/clinch.html#clinch
2016-04-06T18:39:29Z warweasle: Xach: Ack...
2016-04-06T18:39:52Z dim: the main question I guess will be about the external .so dependencies, such as SSL
2016-04-06T18:41:42Z warweasle: Xach: I'll have to wait until I'm home.
2016-04-06T18:41:57Z warweasle: Xach: I can't figure out where the error is.
2016-04-06T18:42:11Z Xach: it can't wait!! dang!
2016-04-06T18:43:43Z Xach: well, i guess it will have to wait.
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2016-04-06T18:46:51Z warweasle: Xach: It looks like my git-fu is weak. I'll need to make branch quicklisp match master.
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2016-04-06T18:52:18Z dim: updating 17 debian packages from QL most-recent release in 5 commands, no errors, no manual step involved at all
2016-04-06T18:52:24Z dim: that's a first, I'm quite happy about that one ;-)
2016-04-06T18:53:56Z dim: https://github.com/dimitri/ql-to-deb/commit/da8a02dd69cb19b38f25e07b2396d4431ef69b6d for easy to digest details
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2016-04-06T18:56:32Z Xach: woo
2016-04-06T18:56:40Z Xach: new dist coming on friday
2016-04-06T18:56:59Z dim: with some luck it will be as easy as this one
2016-04-06T18:57:10Z aeth: Xach: any new projects?
2016-04-06T18:57:25Z dim: ql-to-deb check ; ql-to-deb update ; ql-to-deb install ; ql-to-deb sign ; ql-to-deb upload ; done ;-)
2016-04-06T18:57:51Z Xach: aeth: aeth all the green in https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/issues
2016-04-06T18:57:53Z TMA: warweasle: git push origin --force master:quicklisp  #discard remote branch quicklisp, make new remote branch quicklisp that points to where local branch master points
2016-04-06T18:58:25Z aeth: ah, so sketch is being added
2016-04-06T19:00:01Z dim: sketch looks like what I was waiting for ;-)
2016-04-06T19:00:11Z aeth: There's lots of #lispgames stuff slowly becoming stable.
2016-04-06T19:00:17Z dim: for my project of kids programming education
2016-04-06T19:00:20Z aeth: There's even a cl-gamepad, which I wasn't aware of (I'll probably stick to SDL2 though)
2016-04-06T19:00:58Z aeth: The user who made that is also working on a game engine. https://github.com/Shirakumo/trial
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2016-04-06T19:11:41Z dim: of course trying to use anything sdl fails, and quickloading sketch too
2016-04-06T19:11:48Z dim: failure to compile C code, etc
2016-04-06T19:11:55Z warweasle: aeth: Clinch was stable until I screwed up the merge.
2016-04-06T19:12:07Z warweasle: I think I forgot to push from my home PC.
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2016-04-06T19:13:48Z aeth: Hmm, I should probably finish my tiny app data library. There's not much left to do with it. Mostly little things like checking that the directory exists.
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2016-04-06T19:15:01Z aeth: I didn't finish it because it's so tiny that I'm considering combining it with some other loosely related things like e.g. logging and sxp-based config files. I want to avoid a left-pad situation.
2016-04-06T19:17:05Z aeth: One thing I don't like about Steam is when some random app puts some random data directory in some random spot, like Documents or even just the home directory (sometimes unhidden!) so this library is something that ideally all CL games should use.
2016-04-06T19:17:54Z aeth: It's too late to finish it for the April Quicklisp but hopefully it'll be ready for the May one.
2016-04-06T19:18:25Z mood: aeth: Please don't combine it with logging, there are enough libraries for that
2016-04-06T19:22:26Z aeth: Oh, I know why I didn't even upload it yet. I need to change the name from cl-app-data to something else because apparently Microsoft is as uncreative as I am in naming, and "AppData" is literally the app data path for Windows app data.
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2016-04-06T19:39:58Z phoe_krk: hey, I just created a new catchphrase for CL
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2016-04-06T19:40:20Z phoe_krk: : : Common Lisp - a programming language programming language
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2016-04-06T19:49:11Z warweasle: Has anyone updated CLimacs in a while. I'm looking at the page and I see the last release was 2006.
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2016-04-06T19:50:01Z Xach: warweasle: no
2016-04-06T19:50:03Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Climacs
2016-04-06T19:51:46Z warweasle: Second CLimacs. heh
2016-04-06T19:52:08Z aeth: https://github.com/robert-strandh/Second-Climacs
2016-04-06T19:52:59Z aeth: I don't think it's ready, but I could be wrong. There's no README to say how complete it is, but it's not in Quicklisp yet.
2016-04-06T19:53:13Z aeth: s/, but/and/
2016-04-06T19:53:40Z aeth: It is actively being developed, though, based on the commit history.
2016-04-06T19:54:00Z warweasle: aeth: Yes. I was thinking of ripping off some of the code but I know know what I can use.
2016-04-06T19:54:31Z aeth: Someone linked in here a long time ago, maybe a few years ago, a description of how an emacs works.
2016-04-06T19:54:37Z aeth: That might be more useful, but I could never find it again.
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2016-04-06T19:55:36Z warweasle: aeth: Is it a pdf about the structure of text editors?
2016-04-06T19:55:54Z warweasle thinks all programmers should build their own text editor in college. 
2016-04-06T19:56:02Z aeth: No, it was an HTML file and it was specifically about an emacs.
2016-04-06T19:56:04Z aeth: so e.g. buffers
2016-04-06T19:57:17Z drmeister: If I want to copy an instance of a class like:
2016-04-06T19:57:27Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/dWomIYo8/
2016-04-06T19:58:13Z drmeister: I'm on my own - right?    I have to (make-instance 'offset ... <use accessors to pass values to initargs>)
2016-04-06T19:58:42Z Xach: drmeister: kmp wrote about it in the context of equality
2016-04-06T19:59:05Z Xach: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html
2016-04-06T19:59:09Z drmeister: And if I have subclasses of offset one way to do it would be create a generic-function that would do the copying.
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2016-04-06T20:00:15Z phoe_krk: I've just had a very nice discussion at ##rust
2016-04-06T20:00:22Z phoe_krk: describing the fun features Rust has
2016-04-06T20:00:32Z phoe_krk: and the ease of copying them into Common Lisp. ;D
2016-04-06T20:00:39Z phoe_krk: http://phoe-krk.tumblr.com/post/142364382368/rust-features-in-common-lisp-ideas <- if anyone is interested.
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2016-04-06T20:01:55Z drmeister: Xach: I just want to stamp out duplicates of an instance and then push additional elements into one of their slots.   I won't be doing any equality tests.
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2016-04-06T20:03:36Z Xach: drmeister: right. but equality is an important aspect of understanding what it means to make a "copy" of something.
2016-04-06T20:04:05Z Xach: phoe_krk: the rust designer was pretty strongly anti-lisp.
2016-04-06T20:04:15Z warweasle: Xach: Can you override equals or something similar?
2016-04-06T20:04:20Z Xach: warweasle: no.
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2016-04-06T20:05:07Z warweasle: Xach: I'm not sure if I like or dislike overloading. It pretty nice with print-object, however.
2016-04-06T20:05:31Z Xach: warweasle: overloading?
2016-04-06T20:05:56Z Xach: I like to think of it as selection & combination, I guess.
2016-04-06T20:06:09Z warweasle: Xach: Operator overloading. Like C++ does. It's terribly confusing however.
2016-04-06T20:06:36Z Xach: It helps not to have operators.
2016-04-06T20:06:37Z warweasle: Xach: Someone defined << to concatenate streams...
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2016-04-06T20:07:48Z warweasle: Xach: True. But I don't know if I want anyone to modify the basic subset of a language. One of the things I like about CL. However, there are so many it's difficult not to clash with one.
2016-04-06T20:08:25Z Xach: I think I missed something, sorry.
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2016-04-06T20:09:06Z Xach: You like that you can't modify the basic subset of CL? But there's so many ... that might cause a clash?
2016-04-06T20:09:13Z warweasle: Xach: CL has a lot of symbols. I end up trying to redefine them fairly often.
2016-04-06T20:09:14Z Xach isn't sure what the "..." is
2016-04-06T20:09:25Z Xach: warweasle: oh, really? ah.
2016-04-06T20:09:57Z Xach: only 976! it's easy to memorize with a simple mnemonic epic poem
2016-04-06T20:10:02Z warweasle: Also, the CL channels are *much* better than the scheme channels. And that's an important feature.
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2016-04-06T20:11:38Z Fade: we almost never delete newbie's hard disk.
2016-04-06T20:11:56Z warweasle: Xach: Let length equal every even or odd object which make-array in-package case ...
2016-04-06T20:12:30Z Xach: warweasle: ha! i wonder how long you could make intelligible text from only CL symbols.
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2016-04-06T20:14:22Z mood: The one symbol I always try to use for an accessor name is POSITION. LOCATION still feels odd
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2016-04-06T20:15:59Z kz: how do you do the equivalent of (incf (symbol-value name)) for a lexical variable?
2016-04-06T20:16:24Z warweasle: Xach: 976 symbols? The number of possibilities is 2496 characters long.
2016-04-06T20:16:56Z mood: kz: I don't think I understand what you want, but just (incf lexical-variable-name) works
2016-04-06T20:17:24Z Xach: kz: if you only have the symbol that is its name, there's no way.
2016-04-06T20:17:48Z Xach: there are plenty of things you could do to do it somewhat differently though.
2016-04-06T20:18:12Z kz: hmm
2016-04-06T20:18:54Z Bicyclidine: lexical variables might not have their names at runtime, so symbol-value isn't possible, so to speak
2016-04-06T20:19:20Z phoe_krk: Xach: oh. that's sad.
2016-04-06T20:19:36Z Xach: phoe_krk: what's sad?
2016-04-06T20:19:41Z phoe_krk: 22:04 < Xach> phoe_krk: the rust designer was pretty strongly anti-lisp.
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2016-04-06T20:19:55Z Xach: ah.
2016-04-06T20:20:46Z kz: let me see if this describes what i want better; something like (let ((x 0) (y 0) (z 0)) (let (name (choose-one '(x y z))) (incf name)))
2016-04-06T20:20:48Z phoe_krk: well, these Rust-like features are actually implementable into CL fairly easily; all it takes is a layer of code-walkers and assertions and modified assignment operations.
2016-04-06T20:20:50Z warweasle: Here is a (hopefully) similar question. I want to create a macro inside a package, but I want a local variable to be available from the "current" package (for example :cl-user). Is there a way to do that?
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2016-04-06T20:21:11Z phoe_krk: Which can be wrapped in macros that realize these assertions.
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2016-04-06T20:21:46Z Bicyclidine: kz: i'd do more or less (case (random 3) ((0) (incf x)) ((1) (incf y)) ((2) (incf z)))
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2016-04-06T20:22:43Z aeth: warweasle: This is the emacs book that I was talking about, I think. http://www.finseth.com/craft/
2016-04-06T20:23:09Z Xach: warweasle: macros take source code and return source code. if the variable is provided to the macro by the user, it is pretty easy to do that. if you are making up the variable yourself, it's a little trickier.
2016-04-06T20:23:42Z Xach: e.g. (my-package:my-binder (foo 42) ...something that uses foo...) will be trivial to use the exact symbol FOO provided.
2016-04-06T20:24:10Z kz: Bicyclidine: that solution is so repetitious :x
2016-04-06T20:24:26Z Bicyclidine: i don't think it's such a big deal
2016-04-06T20:24:33Z Bicyclidine: if you want, you could shorten it some with a macro
2016-04-06T20:24:33Z warweasle: Xach: I'm doing the second. Say I have a width and height which is local (I have window width, texture width, text-area width...) and I don't want the user to have to add clinch:*width* every thime.
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2016-04-06T20:25:16Z warweasle: aeth: Ahh. That's the book I was thinking of.
2016-04-06T20:25:20Z Xach: kz: how would you use the results afterwards?
2016-04-06T20:25:21Z Bicyclidine: (defmacro incf-choice (variables) `(case (random ,(length variables)) ,@(loop for i below (length variables) for v in variables collect `((,i) (incf ,v))))), then (incf-choice x y z)
2016-04-06T20:25:32Z Xach: kz: it seems like your example would be better served with an array.
2016-04-06T20:25:44Z Xach: the random value becomes an index into the array.
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2016-04-06T20:26:07Z Xach wonders how the real example looks
2016-04-06T20:26:09Z Bicyclidine: probably so
2016-04-06T20:26:52Z Xach: warweasle: hmm, i'm having a little trouble visualizing it. any chance you could write what you'd like the user to be able to write?
2016-04-06T20:26:58Z Xach: like, nicely formatted in a paste :)
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2016-04-06T20:30:37Z warweasle: Xach: I'm not sure I can. Say I have a handler function. I call it from the top of my "tree" in which the Display is the target. *width* (not clinch:*width*) should be the display's width. If I create a texture/image and call the same function, *width* should return the width of the texture. And there are others. This is contrived but I think it explains it.
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2016-04-06T20:31:02Z warweasle: Mostly I don't want to force the user to (use-package :clinch) in order to get the dynamic *width* variable.
2016-04-06T20:31:18Z Bicyclidine: sounds anaphoric
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2016-04-06T20:31:39Z Xach: if you want to use a variable, it is pretty normal to refer to it with a prefix, or import it, or use the package.
2016-04-06T20:31:47Z Xach: anything else will hurt people who understand how the package system works.
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2016-04-06T20:32:29Z warweasle: Xach: Ok.
2016-04-06T20:32:37Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: You said the word of the day!
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2016-04-06T20:33:05Z Bicyclidine: actually the word of the day is cerebrocerebellum
2016-04-06T20:33:35Z Bicyclidine: but, a lot of the time you'd name the variables in the macro form, like xach said. (your-macro (width height) ...body...) and then the user can name width and height whatever they damn well please
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2016-04-06T20:34:30Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: That's my current approach.
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2016-04-06T20:36:12Z kz: I'm trying to model an object as a closure; array indices would work, but i'd then be bolting names onto them from above and have something else i'd need to experiment with to understand. writing all the cases out is how beauty dies (besides seeming wholly unnecessary with (really long example that uses name) or a bloated object with a-zzz slots
2016-04-06T20:36:16Z Bicyclidine: sometimes people have it always named "WIDTH" or whatever, but i personally find that annoying, such as when i want to do (your-macro (w1 h1) (your-macro (w2 h2) ...))
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2016-04-06T20:38:09Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: Right now it calls handlers as functions. You just need to know the arguments.
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2016-04-06T20:38:18Z Bicyclidine: i have no idea what that means
2016-04-06T20:39:01Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: I call a function with (funcall ... and the user can set the variable names using the function arguments.
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2016-04-06T20:39:10Z Bicyclidine: kz: (choice '(a b c d ... zzx zzy zzz)) is pretty ugly too. if you're doing that you should really suck it up and use an array. having lots of places that you can index to is what arrays are for.
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2016-04-06T20:39:41Z Xach: kz: it's pretty normal to model objects with a vector and a map from names to indexes.
2016-04-06T20:40:31Z kz: it seems odd to me that adding a level of indirection to lexical-variable // object-slot reference is the motivating factor, though
2016-04-06T20:40:55Z kz: like going to the mechanic to fix a brake light and coming out with a different car
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2016-04-06T20:41:10Z Bicyclidine: it might help to understand that if you could do something like you want, it would be, internally, almost certainly something like an array
2016-04-06T20:41:12Z Xach: It seems more like "I want to build a car but I don't want to get any grease on my pants"
2016-04-06T20:41:35Z Xach: "my beautiful, beautiful pants"
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2016-04-06T20:41:59Z Bicyclidine: when you have (let ((a ...) ... (zzz ...)) ...) that would allocate an array at runtime, and then symbol-value would take a -> 0, b -> 1, etc., and index into the array
2016-04-06T20:42:02Z warweasle: Xach: Bubble-boy's guide to automotives?
2016-04-06T20:42:04Z kz: i'll grant you that, but lisp isn't immune to greenspun's tenth
2016-04-06T20:42:39Z drmeister: GAGNGAGNG - Writing Common Lisp code that analyzes C++ code and then using that information to generate correct C++ code is incredibly frustrating!
2016-04-06T20:42:46Z kz: and it's much better to understand how the compiler is the one using the array for me, and not my implementation (which would subsequently miss the upgrade to using a yarra instead)
2016-04-06T20:43:01Z warweasle: drmeister: ???
2016-04-06T20:43:02Z drmeister feels like he's twisting himself into a pretzel.
2016-04-06T20:43:20Z warweasle: drmeister: Well, it's C++ so...
2016-04-06T20:43:34Z Bicyclidine: look, just, speaking simply, if you have five hundred things, it's more useful to have them indexed rather than have them all have unique and technically unrelated names
2016-04-06T20:43:41Z Bicyclidine: it's like that borges story. fugues? something like that
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2016-04-06T20:44:05Z warweasle: drmeister: Can you use lex and yacc to parse them into a tree first?
2016-04-06T20:44:09Z Bicyclidine: funes the memorious
2016-04-06T20:44:37Z warweasle: drmeister: Since they are already written.
2016-04-06T20:44:48Z Bicyclidine: i think he's past that point
2016-04-06T20:44:57Z drmeister: I'm modifying my Common Lisp static analyzer to analyze my C++ code to generate C++ code that the MPS garbage collector can use to properly fix pointers in constant sized arrays that are arbitrarily nested inside C++ classes that need to be garbage collected.
2016-04-06T20:45:08Z Bicyclidine: Gesundheit
2016-04-06T20:45:09Z kz: you're presupposing that there are no sufficiently motivated cases for unique names
2016-04-06T20:45:17Z drmeister: warweasle: lex and yacc?  Children playing with children's toys.
2016-04-06T20:45:34Z Bicyclidine: kz: if you had such a case you would be treating the variables uniquely, instead of wanting to index them in the same way like this
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2016-04-06T20:46:15Z drmeister: I'm driving a freakin' C++ compiler with Common Lisp.
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2016-04-06T20:46:28Z kz: Bicyclidine: but indirecting on variables is a standard thing, and having lots of them isn't ruled out, and the composition of the two should follow
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2016-04-06T20:46:49Z Bicyclidine: it's not a standard thing. it's something you can do in perl and php, which are chaotic messes
2016-04-06T20:47:15Z Bicyclidine: and you can do it in lisp with specials, because lisp can be a chaotic mess too, but not with lexicals, because those are not for this
2016-04-06T20:47:55Z warweasle: drmeister: Is there any chance you can make bindings with it?
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2016-04-06T20:51:41Z drmeister: warweasle: It would be very straightforward - someone really should do that.
2016-04-06T20:52:01Z warweasle: drmeister: Not it!
2016-04-06T20:52:13Z drmeister: It would whip the pants off of swig.
2016-04-06T20:52:56Z kz: Bicyclidine: but the compiler is already doing something like this! I just want to be doing the same thing it's doing, without caring about how it's doing it
2016-04-06T20:52:59Z warweasle: drmeister: Seriously, I tried to write a wrapper for the bullet physics lib. Never got vary far. You might check it out: CL-valentine.
2016-04-06T20:53:15Z drmeister: stassats may or may not be generating Qt bindings with it - but he is enigmatic.
2016-04-06T20:53:47Z Bicyclidine: kz: maybe i misspoke. the compiler is not discriminating on names on runtime. the names probably do not exist at runtime. i mentioned how it would, hypothetically, work, but that is not how it works.
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2016-04-06T20:53:59Z warweasle: drmeister: Is he terribly mysterious?
2016-04-06T20:54:04Z drmeister: warweasle: I'm serious as well, I'm mucking about inside of C++ AST's all the time.  It would be trivial to generate bindings.   I'm generating offset pointers to over 300 C++ classes for automated garbage collection.
2016-04-06T20:54:16Z drmeister: The mysterioust.
2016-04-06T20:54:30Z warweasle: drmeister: I thought your stuff was proprietary?
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2016-04-06T20:54:42Z drmeister: github.com/drmeister/clasp
2016-04-06T20:54:47Z drmeister: Nope
2016-04-06T20:55:10Z kz: Bicyclidine: regardless, it works- it doesn't need to discriminate on names on runtime, and I don't need to either- I just want to feed a subset of what it is using to discriminate
2016-04-06T20:55:20Z warweasle: drmeister: If no one is forcing you, why are you trying to fix C++ code from lisp?
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2016-04-06T20:57:44Z drmeister: I'm not - I'm working on my programming language for designing big molecules that will change things.  Some of the C++ classes it uses contain fixed size arrays that contain pointers that need to be fixed.   I wrote a program that finds pointers in classes and generates code to fix them.
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2016-04-06T20:58:02Z drmeister: But it doesn't yet introspect into fixed size arrays - so I'm adding that.
2016-04-06T20:58:03Z warweasle: drmeister: Oh. That makes sense.
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2016-04-06T20:58:46Z drmeister: Right, because it's more than 800 C++ classes and I'm not too careful about where I put pointers.  I just throw them in and let the static analyzer sort them out.
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2016-04-06T21:05:21Z Bicyclidine: kz: you are trying to discriminate on names at runtime. you want to be able to have the symbol X at runtime, and have the program be able to map that X to a stack location (or whatever), and then increment the value at that location. but there is no such map.
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2016-04-06T21:06:05Z kz: Bicyclidine: http://pastebin.com/gEXUA3cm
2016-04-06T21:06:27Z kz: the names aren't necessary; they're happy to be compiled out at the same time and just use the same references the compiler wants
2016-04-06T21:06:42Z kz: i don't need the map, just the right hand side
2016-04-06T21:06:46Z Bicyclidine: but they CAN'T be compiled out. '(a b c) is a RUNTIME value.
2016-04-06T21:06:55Z Bicyclidine: your choice function is called at runtime.
2016-04-06T21:07:13Z Bicyclidine: and i don't know what this paste is supposed to mean.
2016-04-06T21:07:29Z kz: but the choice function is just as happy to compile those values through to the ones every other reference uses
2016-04-06T21:07:41Z Bicyclidine: functions don't know anything about compiling!
2016-04-06T21:08:31Z kz: *to have those values compiled through
2016-04-06T21:09:23Z Bicyclidine: in (foo a), foo being a function, the symbol "A" is not a value, it's part of the text. it's something you can operate on _at compile time_. In (foo 'a), "A" exists at runtime, as a symbol, something you can manipulate, and the compiler doesn't directly deal with it.
2016-04-06T21:10:09Z Bicyclidine: the function foo in (foo a) necessarily can't know anything about the binding of "A" involved, since that's all in the caller. all foo gets is whatever value A is bound to at the time of the call
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2016-04-06T21:24:02Z kz: Bicyclidine: yes, but at some point the lexical variables a..z get converted to some sublexical references; i'd be happy to have those sublexical references instead, but there's no way of getting them, using them, or anticipating them
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2016-04-06T21:27:11Z Bicyclidine: kz: the ability to use sublexical reference/stack locations would put unnecessary restrictions on how those are laid out, etc
2016-04-06T21:27:18Z Bicyclidine: kz: so instead you use an array. you can even stack allocate it
2016-04-06T21:28:37Z Bicyclidine: being able to index the stack would be too low level and place weird restrictions on the layout
2016-04-06T21:29:07Z Bicyclidine: which is why you can't indirect variables usually, unless there are specifically runtime mechanisms for them, as with, again, specials
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2016-04-06T21:32:29Z Bicyclidine: and the "some point" at which lexical variables disappear is during compilation, before your code can run. in case that was unclear
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2016-04-07T01:12:06Z theseb: What do people mean by the Lisp "enlightenment"?
2016-04-07T01:12:36Z theseb: just curious..if someone uses another lisp like Clojure would they still be "enlightened"?
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2016-04-07T01:18:03Z Bike: you can't be truly enlightened until you tithe 10% of your income to me
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2016-04-07T01:25:42Z theseb: Bike: that wasn't enlightening
2016-04-07T01:26:20Z Bike: sure isn't, my coffers are still empty
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2016-04-07T01:36:33Z theseb: Bike: if you enlighten me I *may* send an attaboy your way
2016-04-07T01:38:49Z Bike: what i am sarcastically saying is that it's a programming language, not a religion. you may end up rethinking assumptions but don't expect too much out of it and don't take it as seriously as you are
2016-04-07T01:40:41Z aeth: theseb: One example is that scope is usually more explicit in Common Lisp than it is in other languages, due to e.g. using let instead of just assigning variables to be executed sequentially.
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2016-04-07T01:41:02Z aeth: Scope and the variables that are in the scope.
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2016-04-07T01:41:50Z aeth: You can still use setf to reuse variables if you want spaghetti, though, I guess.
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2016-04-07T01:43:18Z theseb: aeth: i agree that is nice but i doubt explicit scope is enough to provide the kind of orgasmic experience I was kinda hoping for with the bright lights equivalent to a 1000 suns
2016-04-07T01:43:50Z aeth: A lot of people oversell everything in order to get blog views.
2016-04-07T01:44:05Z Bike: have you considered an orgone accumulator
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2016-04-07T01:44:21Z theseb: Bike: wait...enough people talk about it that i don't think it is a joke
2016-04-07T01:44:27Z Zhivago: It used to be more compelling. :)
2016-04-07T01:44:38Z theseb: Bike: no really....remember ESR (open source fame?) ...he mentions it too
2016-04-07T01:44:45Z Zhivago: These days most of the good ideas have been mined out of lisp and into other languages.
2016-04-07T01:45:12Z Bike: they weren't joking, they're just prone to hyperbole
2016-04-07T01:45:31Z aeth: Zhivago: Except multiple dispatch, that's still rare.
2016-04-07T01:45:33Z Zhivago: There are a few left, like signals/restarts.
2016-04-07T01:45:35Z theseb: Bike: k..i guess i can send an attaboy for that..thanky
2016-04-07T01:45:51Z Bike: zhivago's right, too. i like lisp more than python, but the difference is a lot less than between lisp and fortran
2016-04-07T01:45:59Z Zhivago: Multiple dispatch is not particularly compelling given chainable single dispatch.
2016-04-07T01:46:08Z theseb: Zhivago: i always had this idea in my head i couldn't shake that lisp would be a great language to implement other syntax heavy lisp like languages....Python comes to mind
2016-04-07T01:46:33Z theseb: Zhivago: imagine if Python, Ruby, etc. were all just light shims on top of a Lisp
2016-04-07T01:46:41Z aeth: The reason to use SBCL instead of Python or Ruby is because SBCL can be really, really fast. Not because of orgasmic enlightenment.
2016-04-07T01:46:46Z theseb: Zhivago: any value in that?
2016-04-07T01:47:23Z Zhivago: theseb: Then we could cut our wrists twice in half the time. :)
2016-04-07T01:47:32Z aeth: There are some places where speed still matters, and it's great to be able to (declare (speed 3) (safety 0)) there... just make sure you wrote bug-free code first.
2016-04-07T01:47:48Z Zhivago: If you want speed, you might as well use javascript. :)
2016-04-07T01:47:49Z aeth: Although other languages are catching up to be able to do things like e.g. optional type annotation. CL's had that.
2016-04-07T01:48:09Z aeth: Zhivago: Speed + not everything's a double. :-p
2016-04-07T01:48:42Z Zhivago: The integers are a subset of doubles. :)
2016-04-07T01:48:47Z theseb: Zhivago: huh? implementing langies in lisp would be a thing of elegance and beauty no? why the violent image?
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2016-04-07T01:49:06Z Zhivago: Well, not all languages are beautiful.
2016-04-07T01:49:12Z aeth: With CL, you can code like a scripting language but not have it perform like one.
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2016-04-07T01:49:28Z aeth: Zhivago: So which languages are we allowed to implement in CL? Does Smalltalk make the cut?
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2016-04-07T01:50:06Z Zhivago: aeth: You're allowed to implement whatever you like -- the internet police will not come for you in the middle of the night and drag you screaming into the street.
2016-04-07T01:50:15Z Zhivago: At least, probably not.
2016-04-07T01:50:20Z aeth: Zhivago: Well, not yet.
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2016-04-07T01:51:21Z theseb: k thakns alll...R&R time
2016-04-07T01:52:24Z Zhivago: It's good to hear that rock and roll isn't dead yet.
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2016-04-07T02:31:34Z akkad: You need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system correctly. Seeing this abruptly on sbcl loading bordeaux-threads. is this requirement met by a quicklisp package?
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2016-04-07T02:31:53Z akkad: ahh ancient sbcl.
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2016-04-07T02:44:50Z warweasle: XachX: I finally got home and fixed the clinch build issue.
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2016-04-07T02:56:01Z drmeister looks longingly forward to the day that he can use more type information in Clasp.
2016-04-07T02:56:14Z drmeister: Pure, dynamic programming can be a bit of a drag sometimes.
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2016-04-07T02:57:25Z drmeister: Is it legitimate to use (declare (type ...)) as asserts and have the compiler stick asserts into the function to check the types when debugging?
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2016-04-07T02:58:06Z Bike: it is legitimate for an implementation to treat declarations as assertions, yes
2016-04-07T02:58:31Z Bike: http://sbcl.org/manual/index.html#Declarations-as-Assertions sbcl does so
2016-04-07T03:00:01Z drmeister: Because that would be useful right there - to catch if a binding is of the wrong type.
2016-04-07T03:00:06Z drmeister: Bike: Thanks.
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2016-04-07T03:01:32Z drmeister: I'm sidling up to stack allocated closures to speed up the Cleavir compiler within Clasp.
2016-04-07T03:02:00Z drmeister: It's been a bit of a haul because of poor implementation choices I made long ago.
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2016-04-07T03:02:13Z drmeister: All fixed now, thank you very much.
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2016-04-07T03:03:41Z drmeister: C++ classes exposed to Common Lisp and managed by the garbage collectors can have a variable length array as their last field contained directly within the instance.  Not pointed to somewhere else in memory.
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2016-04-07T03:05:13Z drmeister: These did not implement true  (declare (dynamic-extent xxx))  - that requires machinery within Cleavir that hasn't been developed yet and concepts that I'm not conversant with.
2016-04-07T03:05:57Z drmeister: But I was able to figure out pattern recognition on the Cleavir HIR to identify closure generating instructions where the closure cannot escape and that can be lowered to stack allocated closures.
2016-04-07T03:06:58Z drmeister: It's a silent optimization that can't break anything but will make things faster until proper type inference and escape analysis is implemented.
2016-04-07T03:07:50Z drmeister: Have I mentioned lately that implementing an efficient Common Lisp is hard?  Well, it is.
2016-04-07T03:08:42Z drmeister: Still, it beats watching TV
2016-04-07T03:10:02Z drmeister: Is there a way to determine the size of a closure within SBCL?
2016-04-07T03:10:38Z drmeister: Clasp's without slots is 128 bytes and each slot adds 8 - seems a little large.
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2016-04-07T03:12:05Z Bike: there's sb-kernel:get-closure-length, but i don't know what it returns.
2016-04-07T03:13:17Z Bike: oh, you mean memory usage. uh...
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2016-04-07T03:16:06Z drmeister: Yeah.
2016-04-07T03:16:21Z drmeister: These are the things that get stored in a closure:
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2016-04-07T03:17:57Z drmeister: function-name, function-type (func/macro), code-ptr, llvm::Function, list-of-associated-functions, lambda-list, cleavir-ast (inlining), source-file-handle, source-file-pos, source-line-no, source-column
2016-04-07T03:18:08Z Bike: i tried something and got a segfault, so i'm going to stop trying things. i think an sbcl closure is just a pointer to a function and a pointer to something array-ish, though.
2016-04-07T03:18:34Z Bike: maybe a name too.
2016-04-07T03:18:40Z Bike: can't you put most of that stuff in the underlying function, though?
2016-04-07T03:18:46Z Bike: the source stuff, at least
2016-04-07T03:18:49Z drmeister: A pointer to something array-is?  Gah - I just put a lot of work into getting rid of my pointer to something array-ish.
2016-04-07T03:19:34Z drmeister: "Make the slots local" they said.   "Good for avoiding cache misses" they said.
2016-04-07T03:19:54Z Bike: well, maybe just something array-ish, i don't know. you didn't mention any such thing anyway.
2016-04-07T03:20:56Z drmeister: No worries. It's a reasonable thing to do to allocate the slots alongside the code pointer.  I don't see any good reason to follow a pointer for closures.
2016-04-07T03:21:19Z Bike: yes, probably.
2016-04-07T03:21:40Z drmeister: Also, I can more efficiently implement non-adjustable arrays and whatnot.
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2016-04-07T03:23:24Z Bike: ok, well i'm digging around now and closures are definitely variable length. the variable length part is called "info" but i imagine the slots are the main thing.
2016-04-07T03:23:29Z drmeister: It was trickier to get MPS to be able to scan the class for pointers because now classes can have a collection of fixed offset fields and a variable collection of fields that are indexed within an array.
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2016-04-07T03:25:13Z Bike: oh, and here's a comment in some random possibly obsolescent file saying "the smallest closure requires four words"
2016-04-07T03:25:58Z Bike: yeah nevermind that file is irrelevant.
2016-04-07T03:26:19Z drmeister: 32 bytes?  Hmm, where do they store their source info?
2016-04-07T03:26:38Z Bike: i don't see why that can't be stored with the function.
2016-04-07T03:27:40Z drmeister: That's right.  I don't have that ability yet because of how bloody difficult it is to deal with DWARF metadata.
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2016-04-07T03:32:57Z Bike: sbcl does seem to store source info with functions (sb-introspect::function-debug-info; sb-kernel::%fun-fun handles indirection from closurse)
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2016-04-07T03:37:43Z drmeister: Thank you.
2016-04-07T03:37:46Z drmeister: Food for thought.
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2016-04-07T05:44:26Z drmeister: Does Edi Weitz hang out here?
2016-04-07T05:44:31Z H4ns: no
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2016-04-07T05:48:06Z drmeister: Ok, thanks.  I wanted to thank him for the clasp shout-out in his new book.
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2016-04-07T05:56:05Z drmeister: And take issue with his incorrect capitalization of the name: ClASp - for cryin' out loud.
2016-04-07T05:56:12Z drmeister is kidding.
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2016-04-07T06:07:03Z Petit_Dejeuner: too late, it's in a book
2016-04-07T06:07:15Z Petit_Dejeuner: it's canon now
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2016-04-07T06:25:42Z flip214: drmeister: why, is there no relation to Active Server Pages?  ;]
2016-04-07T06:25:50Z flip214: ie. clASP?
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2016-04-07T08:18:43Z dim: hi
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2016-04-07T08:19:32Z dim: I've been told several times that it's possible to compile an SBCL image that would contain (usually) dynamic libs in a static form, basically linking to libssl at build time... any docs / refs on that?
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2016-04-07T08:26:35Z _death: ELS comes too early :(.. two weeks later I'll be in europe..
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2016-04-07T10:57:26Z flip214: has someone used lparallel together with 5am? I'd like to use (lparallel:pdotimes ...) and have (is ...) checks inside;
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2016-04-07T10:58:01Z flip214: but I get "undefined variable: IT.BESE.FIVEAM::CURRENT-TEST" although I mentioned it in "(make-kernel .. :bindings `())"
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2016-04-07T11:06:10Z flip214: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312710
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2016-04-07T11:07:08Z scymtym_: flip214: i ran into that some time ago and started solving it. https://github.com/scymtym/fiveam/tree/wip-threads is where i stopped. iirc, it handles threads spawned within (test …) correctly, but does not handle already existing threads.
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2016-04-07T11:07:39Z flip214: scymtym_: thanks for the pointer.
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2016-04-07T11:07:53Z flip214: the lparallel kernel gets created within the (TEST), so it should work fine for me.
2016-04-07T11:08:47Z flip214: "updated 6 minutes ago
2016-04-07T11:08:49Z flip214: ;)
2016-04-07T11:10:11Z scymtym_: i wrote it some time ago but only now committed and pushed. given the current activity peak w.r.t. fiveam, maybe i should try to finish the code and propose it for inclusion
2016-04-07T11:10:47Z flip214: 'System "net.didierverna.asdf-flv" not found'   that's not in QL yet, is it?
2016-04-07T11:11:28Z flip214: can we drop that dependency? it's used for a single file-local variable only, right?
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2016-04-07T11:13:10Z scymtym_: that's an unrelated change in fiveam master
2016-04-07T11:13:12Z flip214: I'll still need the :bindings, right?
2016-04-07T11:13:46Z flip214: hmmm, no error, but (is) in threads is not counted to the total....  (after removing the file-local variable thing)
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2016-04-07T11:14:50Z scymtym_: i didn't test the code after rebasing. let me check
2016-04-07T11:18:36Z scymtym_: flip214: now i remember why i stopped. i couldn't find a portable way to do what needs to be done
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2016-04-07T11:21:11Z scymtym_: flip214: pushed some fixes, but it will only work with relatively recent versions of SBCL
2016-04-07T11:23:36Z flip214: should 1.3.3-debian be good enough?
2016-04-07T11:23:55Z scymtym_: yes, but i really cannot recommend using this in its current state
2016-04-07T11:24:32Z scymtym_: the proper way forward would be a bordeaux-threads extensions, getting rid of the SB-KERNEL:*HANDLER-CLUSTERS* hackery
2016-04-07T11:26:58Z mood: This stuff is why lmj, the creator of lparallel, made 1am https://github.com/lmj/1am
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2016-04-07T11:45:19Z scymtym_: something like https://github.com/scymtym/bordeaux-threads/commit/ae8cd956dbcf6230e41d7e380edf9ed1bed4fefd should allow a portable solution
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2016-04-07T11:46:29Z DeadTrickster: oh struggling with dynamic vars?
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2016-04-07T11:47:41Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: no. it is currently not possible to e.g. establish handler bindings for each created thread
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2016-04-07T11:48:51Z DeadTrickster: yesterday I wrote my first method combinations (80% copy-paste :-)
2016-04-07T11:49:02Z DeadTrickster: I'm happiest man is the whoouuurld
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2016-04-07T11:51:56Z moore33: DeadTrickster: Go wild!
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2016-04-07T11:53:42Z DeadTrickster: yea maybe I'll finally assemble today my lego crane
2016-04-07T11:53:55Z DeadTrickster: I' a good boy )
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2016-04-07T12:53:14Z dim: Compilation failed: In MAKE-DOUBLE-FLOAT: Type declarations violated in (THE FIXNUM 4294967295)
2016-04-07T12:53:54Z dim: Xach: XachX: is it possible that buildapp when using --sbcl ccl64 then still is running in 32 bits a build time? it really looks like that
2016-04-07T12:54:30Z dim: also /usr/local/bin/ccl64: POSIX shell script text executable
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2016-04-07T12:59:51Z XachX: dim: ccl64 isn't what ccl is usually named.
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2016-04-07T13:06:13Z DeadTrickster: is it portable to destructively modify &rest argument before calling [call-next-method)?
2016-04-07T13:06:17Z DeadTrickster: at least on sbcl this works
2016-04-07T13:07:48Z DeadTrickster: on clisp this doesn't work
2016-04-07T13:07:48Z DeadTrickster: ok
2016-04-07T13:07:59Z moore33: DeadTrickster: It is safer to just call call-next-method with the new argument list.
2016-04-07T13:08:15Z DeadTrickster: yea looks like that
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2016-04-07T13:10:31Z DeadTrickster: looks like I have 'normal' constructors now
2016-04-07T13:10:38Z DeadTrickster: with validation and normalization
2016-04-07T13:10:40Z DeadTrickster: finally
2016-04-07T13:10:53Z igam: dim: ccl is always a script. The actual executable name changes from one target platform to another.
2016-04-07T13:11:08Z igam: dx86cl lxarmcl etc.
2016-04-07T13:12:20Z igam: DeadTrickster: it's never conforming to destroy &rest. But it is conforming to call call-next-method with a different list of rest argument (since the dispatching is only done on mandatory arguments, which must not be changed).
2016-04-07T13:12:48Z dim: igam: yes, but apparently it's a problem when using buildapp
2016-04-07T13:12:53Z igam: (defmethod m (m1 m2 &rest r) (apply (function call-next-argument) m1 m2 (transform-arguments r)))
2016-04-07T13:13:04Z DeadTrickster: igam, what's the non destructive alternative for setf getf
2016-04-07T13:13:06Z DeadTrickster: ?
2016-04-07T13:13:11Z igam: lry
2016-04-07T13:13:13Z igam: let
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2016-04-07T13:13:23Z dim: XachX: here the ccl name refers to the 32 bits version of it, and I depend on the freetds lib for which I only have the 64 bits version of the .so
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2016-04-07T13:14:04Z igam: DeadTrickster: actually, it depend on the use of your plist.
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2016-04-07T13:14:06Z Xach: dim: the 64 bit ccl is usually named something like lx68cl64
2016-04-07T13:14:15Z DeadTrickster: igam, ? recall initialize instance signature - &rest initargs &key &allow-other-keys
2016-04-07T13:14:19Z Xach: oops, lx86cl64
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2016-04-07T13:14:27Z DeadTrickster: on sbcl this works:  (setf (getf initargs :val) "qwe")
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2016-04-07T13:14:38Z mood: It's ccl64 for me too. Depends on the packager I guess
2016-04-07T13:14:38Z DeadTrickster: but this is destructive
2016-04-07T13:14:46Z dim: Xach: ok trying that
2016-04-07T13:14:53Z Xach: If packaging is involved, I can't offer any advice, sorry.
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2016-04-07T13:14:56Z DeadTrickster: what's not destructive alternative here
2016-04-07T13:14:59Z Xach: I've only used ccl from svn
2016-04-07T13:15:10Z DeadTrickster: i.e. return new plist
2016-04-07T13:15:21Z Xach: I'm also very sorry if buildapp's ccl support is causing trouble. The more I look at how it was done, the less happy I am that I merged it.
2016-04-07T13:15:30Z Xach: I have not had time to do it the way I would prefer.
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2016-04-07T13:15:58Z mood: DeadTrickster: you could just cons the new pair at the front. GETF will return the first instance it finds
2016-04-07T13:16:00Z dim: make CL=/usr/local/Cellar/clozure-cl/1.11/libexec/dx86cl64 is now running
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2016-04-07T13:16:19Z dim: I'm using the brew packaging system, Xach, FWIW
2016-04-07T13:16:27Z dim: it's pretty popular on mac and very useful indeed
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2016-04-07T13:18:29Z dim: ./build/bin/buildapp.ccl: Mach-O executable i386 even tho it was built that way: /usr/local/Cellar/clozure-cl/1.11/libexec/dx86cl64 --no-init --load build/quicklisp/setup.lisp \ --eval '(ql:quickload "buildapp")' \ --eval '(buildapp:build-buildapp "build/bin/buildapp.ccl")' \ --eval '(quit)'
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2016-04-07T13:19:05Z DeadTrickster: mood, will it work with &key I think this might be implementation dependent
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2016-04-07T13:19:11Z Xach: dim: build-buildapp spawns sbcl. is your sbcl 32-bit?
2016-04-07T13:19:36Z moore33: DeadTrickster: What mood said... works that way for keyword arguments too.
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2016-04-07T13:20:00Z DeadTrickster: it basically finds the first occurrence
2016-04-07T13:20:02Z DeadTrickster: ok
2016-04-07T13:20:19Z moore33: DeadTrickster: That behavior is in the standard.
2016-04-07T13:20:31Z Xach: dim: I take that back. I was mistaken about how it works.
2016-04-07T13:20:51Z DeadTrickster: I'm kinda overriding args that way
2016-04-07T13:20:53Z DeadTrickster: funny
2016-04-07T13:20:55Z Xach: dim: but it does spawn a new lisp and it is named "ccl" by default
2016-04-07T13:21:07Z moore33: DeadTrickster: That's what it's for.
2016-04-07T13:22:10Z dim: Xach: my default sbcl is a 64 bits executable
2016-04-07T13:22:35Z dim: Xach: should I try to alias ccl to the full 64 bits path?
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2016-04-07T13:22:50Z Xach: dim: that would probably help, yes
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2016-04-07T13:23:37Z igam: What's your problem with ccl?  ccl uses uname -m to select the 32-bit or the 64-bit executable according to the host.
2016-04-07T13:23:39Z dim: trying
2016-04-07T13:24:31Z igam: ccl --version # will show you the executable version.
2016-04-07T13:24:34Z dim: maybe I should switch away from buildapp to https://github.com/renard/cl-image-builder, but I invested so much time before it worked on my user setups that I'm reluctant to such a move
2016-04-07T13:24:55Z dim: the alias failed
2016-04-07T13:25:06Z renard_: dim: you should  ;-)
2016-04-07T13:25:07Z dim: igam: Version 1.11-r16635  (DarwinX8664)
2016-04-07T13:25:25Z igam: You would need to have a multilib host to be able to run both the 32-bit and the 64-bit version and therefore have a choice.
2016-04-07T13:25:27Z Xach: dim: if "ccl" runs 64-bit, the resulting buildapp should be 64-bit.
2016-04-07T13:25:34Z igam: Yes.
2016-04-07T13:26:07Z dim: igam: I'm happy with building a 64 bits pgloader binary with CCL 64 bits, it's buildapp/ccl-from-brew that's not helping here :/
2016-04-07T13:26:35Z dim: ok Version 1.11-r16635  (DarwinX8632), after unalias'ing my temp hack
2016-04-07T13:26:49Z dim: I don't know how to force brew to install ccl 64 bits by default on the path
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2016-04-07T13:28:21Z igam: Well, I do my own symlink in /usr/local/bin: ccl -> ../src/ccl/scripts/ccl64*
2016-04-07T13:28:30Z dim: ok, /usr/local/bin/ccl -> ../Cellar/clozure-cl/1.11/bin/ccl
2016-04-07T13:28:46Z dim: yeah, just changed that symlink to target bin/ccl64 instead ;-)
2016-04-07T13:28:57Z Xach: yes, it must be what exec() would see as "ccl", not your command line
2016-04-07T13:29:09Z igam: check the contents of  ../Cellar/clozure-cl/1.11/bin/ccl ; can it select either version, or is it a different script that selects always the same?
2016-04-07T13:30:02Z dim: ./build/bin/pgloader --version pgloader version "3.3.6d09de9" compiled with Clozure Common Lisp Version 1.11-r16635 (DarwinX8664)
2016-04-07T13:30:10Z dim: ok, done, thanks all
2016-04-07T13:30:26Z dim: ln -sf /usr/local/Cellar/clozure-cl/1.11/libexec/scripts/ccl64 /usr/local/bin/ccl
2016-04-07T13:30:28Z DeadTrickster: next question - how to reverse plist?
2016-04-07T13:30:31Z dim: that's what I had to do igam
2016-04-07T13:30:47Z DeadTrickster: noob way - plist-alist>reverse>alist-plist
2016-04-07T13:31:24Z igam: DeadTrickster:  distributions and package managers consist in defering system administration to the distributors and packagers.  Normally, you should take charge of your own system administration.
2016-04-07T13:31:44Z igam: DeadTrickster: yep. but it might not be worth to do it otherwise.
2016-04-07T13:31:45Z Xach: I would like to do away with the hard ccl/sbcl separation, and have any kind of buildapp run any kind of lisp to produce any kind of buildapp.
2016-04-07T13:33:07Z igam: (loop for cur on (reverse plist) by (function cddr) while cur collect (cadr cur) collect (car cur))
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2016-04-07T13:35:40Z DeadTrickster: igam, distributions... that was for me?
2016-04-07T13:36:22Z DeadTrickster: loop works btw
2016-04-07T13:36:25Z DeadTrickster: thanks
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2016-04-07T13:38:24Z DeadTrickster: igam, LICENSE? I want to include this in my MIT Licensed code, is it ok for you?
2016-04-07T13:41:55Z dim: Xach: that would be good! have a look at how renard_ does it too, because he solved the problem of being able to reload some code at startup (basically, the code of the local projects, without reloading the code of the asdf dependencies)
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2016-04-07T13:43:45Z renard_: dim, Xach please be aware that is a very first attempt to do what dim wants. It works for me(tm). Some polish might be useful.
2016-04-07T13:43:59Z renard_: advises welcome ;-)
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2016-04-07T13:48:04Z Xach: ASDF does a lot, too. But I find it hard to figure out.
2016-04-07T13:48:21Z Xach: The monofasl stuff in particular seems like a very useful thing
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2016-04-07T13:54:35Z scymtym_: recent ASDFs also have ASDF:REGISTER-IMMUTABLE-SYSTEM which could help with self-upgrading
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2016-04-07T13:56:50Z warweasle: Good morning.
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2016-04-07T13:58:53Z moore33: DeadTrickster: Another take: (loop for (key val) on plist by #'cddr  for result = `(,key ,val) then `(,key ,val ,@result) finally (return result))
2016-04-07T13:59:26Z igam: DeadTrickster: no it was for users of MacPorts, brew, debian, (a little less of) gentoo, (a lot more of) ubuntu, redhat, etc.  Even quicklisp.
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2016-04-07T13:59:39Z moore33: Actually, ,@ should be ,.
2016-04-07T13:59:56Z moore33: Actually, probably doesn't matter.
2016-04-07T14:00:55Z dlowe: so that was an interesting thing on recursable macros
2016-04-07T14:01:01Z DeadTrickster: )
2016-04-07T14:01:13Z dlowe: http://qiita.com/guicho271828/items/07ba4ff11bff494dc03f
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2016-04-07T14:01:59Z dlowe: the mechanism suggested is pretty clumsy, though.
2016-04-07T14:02:11Z Xach: warweasle: hello. clinch still failing. :~(
2016-04-07T14:02:26Z warweasle: Xach: It is? I updated it last night.
2016-04-07T14:02:38Z Xach: warweasle: same problem.
2016-04-07T14:02:42Z warweasle: Xach: Granted it was late...
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2016-04-07T14:02:55Z warweasle: Xach: Let me look again.
2016-04-07T14:03:03Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-04-07/failure-report/clinch.html
2016-04-07T14:03:17Z Xach: when you quickload, be sure to use :verbose t to have the failure stop the compilation.
2016-04-07T14:03:42Z dlowe: I haven't thought about it too deeply, but it seems like calling macroexpand in your macro might work
2016-04-07T14:04:03Z dlowe: but I guess if it were that easy, iterate would work.
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2016-04-07T14:04:13Z dlowe: er, iterate would use it
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2016-04-07T14:07:11Z warweasle: Xach: This looks like a different file. I think it was in buffer.lisp last time.
2016-04-07T14:07:27Z Xach: warweasle: ok
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2016-04-07T14:12:15Z Xach: warweasle: easy fix?
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2016-04-07T14:13:14Z warweasle: Xach: I can't tell. I'm on a remote text terminal.
2016-04-07T14:13:28Z warweasle: Xach: Is there a way to see what the error is. Or where?
2016-04-07T14:13:29Z Xach: warweasle: the report is all text!
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2016-04-07T14:13:39Z Xach: warweasle: you could curl | less it perhaps
2016-04-07T14:14:06Z Xach: warweasle: also, it's in the same place as last time, in shader-program
2016-04-07T14:14:07Z warweasle: Xach: I can access the web page. I just can't compile clinch.
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2016-04-07T14:14:37Z warweasle: Xach: Ok. I was looking in buffer.lisp. That's what I get for using my memory.
2016-04-07T14:14:43Z Xach: warweasle: the error is at the "derived type" bit
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2016-04-07T14:34:08Z warweasle: Xach: I have top men working on it. Top. Men.
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2016-04-07T14:50:14Z Xach:  /win 3
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2016-04-07T15:06:15Z dim: scymtym_: I tried the asdf immutable systems feature some while ago to no avail
2016-04-07T15:06:37Z dim: see https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/hooks.lisp where you can still see bits of it
2016-04-07T15:07:08Z dim: the pgloader --self-upgrade command still only works on a devel setup where you do have all the asdf build dependencies available in the current asdf source registry
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2016-04-07T15:26:01Z warweasle: defmethod can't take constants?
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2016-04-07T15:28:05Z dlowe: what do you mean "take constants"?
2016-04-07T15:28:27Z warweasle: dlowe: (defmethod test (0 (str string)) ....)
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2016-04-07T15:28:45Z dlowe: (defmethod test ((num (eql 0)) (str string)) ...)
2016-04-07T15:28:56Z warweasle: dlowe: Oh...cool!
2016-04-07T15:31:26Z DeadTrickster: it ends on eql though
2016-04-07T15:31:28Z DeadTrickster: no string
2016-04-07T15:31:30Z DeadTrickster: s
2016-04-07T15:32:00Z dlowe: yeah, you can't specialize on strings.
2016-04-07T15:32:21Z dlowe: I have interned strings for this purpose and it works okay.
2016-04-07T15:32:21Z Bike: uh, what?
2016-04-07T15:32:30Z Bike: oh, on particular strings. carry on.
2016-04-07T15:32:45Z dlowe: well, you *can*, but it doesn't buy you much
2016-04-07T15:33:04Z dlowe: you just have to make sure you're referencing the EQ string that you specialized on
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2016-04-07T15:34:35Z Xach: like the one you got back from make-string.
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2016-04-07T15:43:07Z dim: Affected-by: the implementation.
2016-04-07T15:43:16Z dim: wondering what that might mean ;-)
2016-04-07T15:43:46Z Bike: in make string? probably referring to the type upgrade
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2016-04-07T15:56:47Z beach: Good evening everyone!
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2016-04-07T15:58:44Z z0d: hi beach
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2016-04-07T16:00:36Z DeadTrickster: why ql:quickload can pickup some systems after manually adding to system-index?
2016-04-07T16:00:56Z moore33: beach: Hi beach! Did you check out the link I sent you?
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2016-04-07T16:01:19Z moore33: https://medium.com/@evanwallace/easy-scalable-text-rendering-on-the-gpu-c3f4d782c5ac#.fg6gcp128 for everyone else.
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2016-04-07T16:01:37Z beach: moore33: I did!  Very interesting!
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2016-04-07T16:02:43Z moore33: I'm a fan of drawing polygons with this kind of additive approach; works well for less than 255 crossings :)
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2016-04-07T16:03:15Z beach: I saw that number, but didn't understand why the limitation.
2016-04-07T16:03:54Z moore33: beach: He configured a frame buffer to have 8 bits per color channel, and is counting in one channel.
2016-04-07T16:04:32Z beach: I see.
2016-04-07T16:04:53Z phoe_krk: Hey beach.
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2016-04-07T16:05:07Z phoe_krk: I sent a link your way; did your mailbox catch it?
2016-04-07T16:05:15Z beach: I saw it, yes.
2016-04-07T16:05:22Z DeadTrickster: even funnier - it actually loads asd file
2016-04-07T16:05:35Z beach: phoe_krk: I haven't completely read the interchange yet.
2016-04-07T16:05:35Z DeadTrickster: still saying system cannot be found
2016-04-07T16:05:38Z DeadTrickster: Xach, ^
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2016-04-07T16:06:44Z phoe_krk: beach: Good. It's not all that important, just a bit of philosophy.
2016-04-07T16:06:58Z beach: I will read it.  Don't worry.
2016-04-07T16:07:03Z dim: Fatal error in "buildapp" : Fault during read of memory address #x7F6444C29668
2016-04-07T16:07:05Z dim: that's a new one
2016-04-07T16:07:11Z beach: phoe_krk: I was just busy with other stuff today.
2016-04-07T16:07:26Z phoe_krk: beach: so am I. I'm employed now.
2016-04-07T16:07:29Z dim: it's running in a docker container, retrying then
2016-04-07T16:07:36Z phoe_krk: Which is good and time-consuming.
2016-04-07T16:08:00Z vydd: beach: hi
2016-04-07T16:12:03Z beach: vydd: How is it going?
2016-04-07T16:12:24Z vydd: I'm good, how are you? did you get my message?
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2016-04-07T16:12:40Z beach: From minion?  Yes.
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2016-04-07T16:14:08Z beach: vydd: cods offered to convert the documentation into some widely used markup language.  Apparently, he lost the source, but he offered to parse the HTML.
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2016-04-07T16:15:13Z beach: vydd: In the memo, you said you wanted to discuss the maintenance with me.
2016-04-07T16:15:18Z vydd: beach: that's great! I can help with that too, if needed
2016-04-07T16:15:32Z beach: Good.
2016-04-07T16:15:37Z vydd: beach: yeah, well, you told me to ping you after I finish tinkering with the library
2016-04-07T16:16:06Z beach: Sure.  Have you decided to take on the maintenance, or are you still thinking about it?
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2016-04-07T16:17:37Z vydd: beach: I can take on the maintenance, yes. I don't know if there's anyone else wanting to do that, but if so, I can work with them. It would be a shame to abandon that code
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2016-04-07T16:18:11Z vydd: beach: and I'm seriously thinking about using it in https://github.com/vydd/sketch
2016-04-07T16:18:14Z beach: I agree.  And I don't think there are any other candidates at this point.
2016-04-07T16:18:18Z vydd: so that's a plus
2016-04-07T16:18:45Z beach: Indeed, yes.
2016-04-07T16:19:53Z spintronic: Hi guys, (ql:quickload "ltk") on Windows XP. Do I need to install Tcl/Tk as well? Anything else I need to do to get this working? Docs are sparse.
2016-04-07T16:20:23Z beach: vydd: We should make sure Xach knows where you put it.  He is not only the Quicklisp maintainer, but also a client of CL-VECTORS.
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2016-04-07T16:21:58Z vydd: beach: ok, then we probably shouldn't rush it for this next QL release
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2016-04-07T16:22:15Z beach: There is absolutely no need to rush I think.
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2016-04-07T16:26:30Z vydd: beach: I agree.
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2016-04-07T16:27:34Z jasom: spintronic: you need tcl/tk installed
2016-04-07T16:27:46Z beach: vydd: It is already available in Quicklisp, and there are no serious defects as far as I can tell.  My suggested improvements were to the documentation.
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2016-04-07T16:29:20Z jasom: spintronic: I use a tclkit if I'm going to be distributing an application that uses ltk
2016-04-07T16:29:34Z spintronic: jasom: Thank you sir.
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2016-04-07T16:31:53Z vydd: beach: yeah. ok, I'll talk with cods about the code when we're both online, and the direction that cl-vectors was taking. I'm also curious about vector/rasterizer split and my grand plans for the future are to refactor the code so that both cl-vectors and cl-geometry (another abandoned project with great potential) share the same primitives
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2016-04-07T16:32:33Z beach: vydd: Sounds good to me.
2016-04-07T16:32:39Z vydd: beach: but the most important thing is that there will be someone to look at the issues and fix bugs if needed
2016-04-07T16:32:45Z vydd: ok, great
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2016-04-07T16:35:57Z warweasle: Is there a way to keep two or more lisp images synchronized? So if one person updates a function, they both get the update?
2016-04-07T16:36:11Z warweasle: Maybe a slime mode?
2016-04-07T16:36:34Z warweasle: THey have to be separate since I'm doing graphics stuff.
2016-04-07T16:36:48Z reb`````: warweasle: There's some code in swank-crew to do something like that.
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2016-04-07T16:38:06Z warweasle: reb: That looks like it might work.
2016-04-07T16:39:10Z vydd: beach: oh, and I'm in GMT+2 if that matters
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2016-04-07T16:40:29Z phoe_krk: warweasle: connect them through swank, yes.
2016-04-07T16:40:39Z phoe_krk: Google SWANK-CLIENT, there is one written in Lisp that should do the job.
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2016-04-07T16:43:32Z warweasle: phoe_krk: That might work if I can connect to two clients simultaneously: My local and their remote. If we both did that, it might work.
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2016-04-07T16:44:34Z warweasle: ANyway, this is really far out for me. I was wondering if someone already solved it.
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2016-04-07T16:45:29Z phoe_krk: warweasle: basically, you could hook into your REPL.
2016-04-07T16:45:40Z phoe_krk: Into Slime's remote-connect thing.
2016-04-07T16:45:53Z phoe_krk: So it sends each command you input into both servers.
2016-04-07T16:46:06Z phoe_krk: Damn, it looks like Slime could use a synchronized REPL like that.
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2016-04-07T16:47:13Z warweasle: phoe_krk: The problem would be getting objects from the slime-repl, such as copy-object-to-repl
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2016-04-07T16:50:02Z phoe_krk: warweasle: this would need a Slime/Swank extension.
2016-04-07T16:50:24Z phoe_krk: Or, uh, hell.
2016-04-07T16:50:26Z warweasle: phoe_krk: I think an application server would work better in my case.
2016-04-07T16:50:42Z phoe_krk: warweasle: get one Lisp image that is going to be your LitM.
2016-04-07T16:50:57Z warweasle: LitM
2016-04-07T16:50:58Z warweasle: ?
2016-04-07T16:51:02Z phoe_krk: Lisp in the Middle. :P
2016-04-07T16:51:35Z phoe_krk: Open two+ sockets, bind them to the swank client instances.
2016-04-07T16:51:53Z warweasle: phoe_krk: And a custom protocol.I'd have to get my base stuff working first.
2016-04-07T16:52:01Z phoe_krk: warweasle: not so custom, really.
2016-04-07T16:52:12Z phoe_krk: I think all the work could be done in the LitM.
2016-04-07T16:52:40Z phoe_krk: You have an easy way of sending things *to* the remote Lisps - that is the swank-client.
2016-04-07T16:52:46Z phoe_krk: Build a tiny wrapper around it.
2016-04-07T16:52:56Z phoe_krk: (eval-all (code (goes (here))))
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2016-04-07T16:53:33Z phoe_krk: And, the other way, just collect a list of the responses you get and somehow parse it.
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2016-04-07T16:53:55Z phoe_krk: Inspector and a lot of Slime's features won't work, because there's a Lisp between you and the actual objects.
2016-04-07T16:54:07Z phoe_krk: But the REPL will work, and you will be able to keep them synchronized.
2016-04-07T16:54:22Z phoe_krk: That's a very basic and limited but quick to get working approach.
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2016-04-07T16:55:06Z warweasle: phoe_krk: They can collaborate on the database though.
2016-04-07T16:55:33Z warweasle: And I found LOCKSTEP. Collaborative editing from emacs
2016-04-07T16:55:44Z phoe_krk: So someone already did it. Good.
2016-04-07T16:56:09Z phoe_krk: warweasle: as long as you include the database in your wrapper, too; unless by 'database' you mean something I don't know yet
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2016-04-07T16:57:18Z reb`: warweasle: swank-crew connects Emacs/Slime to multiple Lisps running swank servers.
2016-04-07T16:57:20Z warweasle: phoe_krk: It would be a game server where the "players" can edit the server code and data. The server would keep the clients updated.
2016-04-07T16:58:08Z phoe_krk: warweasle: got it.
2016-04-07T16:58:34Z reb`: warweasle: It uses a master/worker configuration.  Your Emacs connects to the master and it farms out expressions to workers for evaluation.
2016-04-07T16:58:46Z phoe_krk: reb`: Wow.
2016-04-07T16:58:51Z phoe_krk: Just what I was thinking about.
2016-04-07T16:59:31Z reb`: If a worker hits a breakpoint, the master Lisp proxies your Slime debugging connection so you can fix things.
2016-04-07T17:01:11Z reb`: The master handles disconnect/reconnect, bringing workers up to date, etc.
2016-04-07T17:02:40Z phoe_krk: reb`: it's wonderful
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2016-04-07T17:25:44Z beach: vydd: Yes, me too, but I don't hang out here during the day.
2016-04-07T17:26:03Z beach: ... and now I will go spend time with my (admittedly small) family.
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2016-04-07T17:44:56Z flip214: Is there a function like MAPLIST (or MAPCAR) that I can use for dotted lists, too?
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2016-04-07T17:45:32Z phoe_krk: How?
2016-04-07T17:46:44Z phoe_krk: You'd need to write it yourself, I think. These functions are have either errors or undefined consequences when used for dotted lists.
2016-04-07T17:46:54Z phoe_krk: But know one thing, too.
2016-04-07T17:47:02Z phoe_krk: When you have a normal list, you can have lists as all elements.
2016-04-07T17:47:12Z phoe_krk: When you have a dotted list, you can have lists as all elements *beside the last one*.
2016-04-07T17:47:34Z phoe_krk: This is why using them is a very wrong idea for iteration. You'll iterate over the initial list and all elements of the last list otherwise.
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2016-04-07T17:47:48Z phoe_krk: In other way: you want the elements you iterate over as CARs and CARs only.
2016-04-07T17:48:25Z phoe_krk: And you stop upon getting NIL as your argument.
2016-04-07T17:48:37Z phoe_krk: There's no NIL CDR in a dotted list. So there's no way to stop.
2016-04-07T17:48:47Z dlowe: my advice is to never use a dotted list ever.
2016-04-07T17:48:51Z phoe_krk: Unless you program it on your own, at which point, it'll fail.
2016-04-07T17:49:11Z phoe_krk: dlowe: they're actually pretty fun - as long as they're exactly two elements long.
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2016-04-07T17:49:16Z phoe_krk: But then they're called conses.
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2016-04-07T17:49:33Z dlowe: as long as you can be absolutely certain that your data element will always be two elements long
2016-04-07T17:49:51Z phoe_krk: no, why?
2016-04-07T17:49:58Z phoe_krk: alists work just fine!
2016-04-07T17:50:05Z phoe_krk: and they have dotted lists inside.
2016-04-07T17:50:20Z dlowe: my alist members always have a proper list as the value
2016-04-07T17:50:26Z phoe_krk: dlowe: mine too.
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2016-04-07T17:50:46Z phoe_krk: but it doesn't mean there are no conses in there as the *base* data structure. :P
2016-04-07T17:51:00Z dlowe: I'm not arguing against conses
2016-04-07T17:51:20Z phoe_krk: so aren't I, our dispute is resolved.
2016-04-07T17:51:21Z phoe_krk: bbl~
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2016-04-07T17:59:57Z flip214: phoe_krk: basically correct, but I'm processing a whole tree - and as soon as there's an ALIST mixed in, I've got an (ATOM (CDR )) ...
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2016-04-07T18:11:43Z DeadTrickster: Xach, have you released new QL already?
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2016-04-07T18:46:38Z commonlisp_win: Hi.What does  top level form to eval or to compile does it mean defun block or the whole program.Thanks :)
2016-04-07T18:46:47Z commonlisp_win: *mean
2016-04-07T18:47:14Z commonlisp_win: Evaluate current top level form   , what does it mean
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2016-04-07T18:54:07Z commonlisp_win: Very sorry figured it out.:)
2016-04-07T18:55:59Z commonlisp_win: One last question, how do switch fast bettwen Lisp code and REPL is tehre something faster the c-x-o
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2016-04-07T19:00:11Z p_l|backup: commonlisp_win: various window-navigation modes for Emacs, and SLIME selector for quick jump to REPL
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2016-04-07T19:00:53Z fchurca: hi
2016-04-07T19:01:28Z commonlisp_win: What is the key combination for that,  SLIME selector for quick jump to REP
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2016-04-07T19:05:23Z p_l|backup: commonlisp_win: don't remember if there's default keybinding for slime-selector, but once you hit it, it gives you a menu which among other things has shortcut to REPL window
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2016-04-07T19:09:28Z commonlisp_win: Thank for the help p_l,appreciate it.:)
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2016-04-07T19:42:13Z Xach: DeadTrickster: No.
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2016-04-07T19:51:01Z _rpg: Is there a way to muffle style-warnings *just within one DEFUN*
2016-04-07T19:51:03Z _rpg: ?
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2016-04-07T19:51:38Z _rpg: I know how to wrap muffling warnings around compiling a full file, but not around compiling a single form....
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2016-04-07T19:54:38Z fchurca: Have you tried editing the file to wrap the defun in a handler-bind or do you need to have the file intact?
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2016-04-07T19:55:13Z Xach: _rpg: handler-bind is one option.
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2016-04-07T19:56:13Z fchurca: (handler-bind ((style-warning #'muffle-warning)) (defun ...))
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2016-04-07T19:58:50Z Xach: hmm
2016-04-07T19:59:03Z Xach: i seem to remember a lesson from Xof about how that isn't exactly what is needed. but the details escape me.
2016-04-07T19:59:35Z _rpg: Xach: does that have the right semantics? So the HANDLER-BIND is evaluated at compile time? ISTR that something goes awry here...
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2016-04-07T20:00:04Z Xach: _rpg: yeah, exactly.
2016-04-07T20:00:28Z Xach: I'm afraid I don't know the right fix
2016-04-07T20:00:41Z _rpg: I think this causes the DEFUN to be evaluated at compile time, instead of at load time.
2016-04-07T20:01:02Z _rpg: This seems like it should be an easy problem to fix, and one that people would encounter a lot...
2016-04-07T20:01:26Z _rpg: But I don't find any solutions googling, except at file-level, which is throwing out a lot of baby with the bathwater.
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2016-04-07T20:06:16Z Xach: _rpg: i find myself ignoring many style warnings and acquiescing to others
2016-04-07T20:06:29Z Xach: i always write defgenerics before defmethods
2016-04-07T20:06:37Z Xach: what style warning are you trying to muffle?
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2016-04-07T20:08:10Z fchurca: how about this? read the file and previously to eval'ing it,, replace defun by defun*, and define defun* so as to be extendable, in this particular case wrapping a handler-bind around certain functions?
2016-04-07T20:08:51Z Xach: rube-goldberg
2016-04-07T20:09:01Z fchurca: so beautiful
2016-04-07T20:09:41Z _rpg: Xach: I get a style warning on a function in trivial backtrace, for an unused variable.
2016-04-07T20:09:54Z _rpg: So here's the exciting bit: that variable appears nowhere in the text of the function!
2016-04-07T20:10:17Z _rpg: better yet... when I add a DECLARE IGNORE to the function, it has no effect!
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2016-04-07T20:11:27Z fchurca: are you using (declare ignore function-name) or (declare ignore #'function-name) ?
2016-04-07T20:11:49Z _rpg: fchurca:  it's not a function name that gives the warning, it's a variable name
2016-04-07T20:11:54Z fchurca: oh
2016-04-07T20:12:26Z _rpg: I'm desperate enough to wrap the compilation of the file in a PERFORM around method that muffles a warning with EXACTLY THAT report string, which is pretty putrid.
2016-04-07T20:12:40Z Xach: _rpg: sbcl?
2016-04-07T20:12:45Z _rpg: no, acl
2016-04-07T20:12:50Z Xach: ah
2016-04-07T20:13:05Z Xach: sbcl has heuristics to avoid warning about macroexpanded code, but it doesn't always succeed
2016-04-07T20:13:12Z Xach: maybe acl is in a similar situation
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2016-04-07T20:15:58Z fchurca: can we see the source?
2016-04-07T20:16:28Z _rpg: fchurca: give me a minute -- I'm just writing my heinous ASDF around method....
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2016-04-07T20:22:47Z theseb: i've heard lisp is "optimized" for the hardest programming problems...can someone give an example of a hard programming problem space that other non-lisp langs would fall over on?
2016-04-07T20:23:08Z theseb: i'm curious what problems beg for the macro + DSL approach of lisp
2016-04-07T20:23:14Z theseb: and are a real selling point
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2016-04-07T20:27:21Z theseb: bbl
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2016-04-07T20:28:26Z Xof: Xach / _rpg : this is what sbcl invented declare muffle-conditions for
2016-04-07T20:28:39Z Xof: to muffle compile-time (rather than execute-time) conditions
2016-04-07T20:29:39Z fchurca: minion: tell Xof about pcl
2016-04-07T20:29:39Z minion: Xof: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-04-07T20:29:51Z fchurca: no wait
2016-04-07T20:29:56Z fchurca: theseb
2016-04-07T20:30:04Z fchurca: my bad
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2016-04-07T20:31:44Z Xof: ...
2016-04-07T20:31:49Z Xof: I've read that book, thanks
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2016-04-07T20:31:55Z Xof: :-)
2016-04-07T20:32:25Z fchurca: i wanted to tell theseb about the chapters on macros there, but had a little slip, sorry
2016-04-07T20:32:54Z Xof: sadly theseb has vanished in any case
2016-04-07T20:34:27Z fchurca: indeed
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2016-04-07T20:35:43Z Xof: speaking of books, what do people think of Edi's book?
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2016-04-07T20:38:13Z fchurca: i have yet to read it; i am waiting for several planets to align so i can buy it from here in argentina without having it "delayed" in the customs office
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2016-04-07T20:39:22Z Xach: Xof: I preordered the book months in advance. then it was delivered to my old address just after I moved.
2016-04-07T20:39:33Z Xach: it was never forwarded. :~(
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2016-04-07T20:41:09Z drmeister: Howdy. I'm working on optimizing closures in Clasp (figuring out when I can put them on the stack).
2016-04-07T20:42:13Z drmeister: The Cleavir HIR is represented as a graph of instruction nodes with input/output data nodes.  Writing code to recognize features in this graph is a bit tedious even in Common Lisp.
2016-04-07T20:42:52Z drmeister: I was on a couple of days ago asking about Prolog - a little prolog compiler could do this nicely I think.
2016-04-07T20:43:03Z drmeister: What other approaches are there for recognizing patterns in graphs?
2016-04-07T20:43:20Z drmeister: Am I asking about "rewrite rules"?
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2016-04-07T20:44:24Z drmeister: Compilers usually represent intermediate representations as graphs don't they?  This must be a problem with several solutions.
2016-04-07T20:44:40Z drmeister: Although, LLVM doesn't use a graph of nodes, they use a graph of basic blocks.
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2016-04-07T20:45:40Z drmeister: I've had very serious LLVM people tell me that basic-blocks are the way to go and that the "sea of nodes" approach to compiler writing is a disaster.  Although they acknowledged that if there was one language that could handle it - it was Common Lisp.
2016-04-07T20:46:57Z drmeister: Nonetheless, Cleavir is a "sea of nodes" based compiler and I think I need to recognize patterns in the HIR to apply some quick-and-dirty optimizations.  I welcome any suggestions people have.
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2016-04-07T20:47:41Z drmeister: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/Gxk0cAiL/mir.pdf
2016-04-07T20:47:57Z drmeister: To give you an idea of what the heck I'm talking about - here is a bit of Cleavir HIR.
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2016-04-07T20:48:39Z drmeister: In the lower left is a "stack-enclose" instruction - that allocates a closure on the stack.
2016-04-07T20:49:03Z drmeister: It used to be a simple "enclose" instruction that allocates a closure on the heap.
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2016-04-07T20:50:02Z drmeister: The features that allowed me to recognize this is that it's output feeds into the 4th argument of funcall(:45).
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2016-04-07T20:50:59Z drmeister: And the first argument of that funcall is the result of looking up the fdefinition of CLEAVIR-PRIMOP:CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND
2016-04-07T20:52:18Z drmeister: So I know the closure will be called by CALL-WITH-VARIABLE-BOUND  and cannot escape and so it is safe to allocate on the stack.   There are a surprisingly large number of these "enclose" instructions that can be converted to "stack-enclose".    Because there is a lot of special variable binding going on.
2016-04-07T20:52:33Z drmeister: Wall of text ends.
2016-04-07T20:52:56Z drmeister: Did'ja miss me?
2016-04-07T20:53:00Z p_l|backup: yes :D
2016-04-07T20:53:29Z drmeister: Well, I'm still working away at things slowly.  Big things are afoot.
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2016-04-07T20:54:45Z fchurca: That's one big foot
2016-04-07T20:55:17Z drmeister: Note to beach: I'm not messing with Cleavir - these are MIR stage optimizations.
2016-04-07T20:55:29Z _rpg: Xof: Yes, I think the Franz folks want to use COMPILER-LET for some of these things.
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2016-04-07T20:56:14Z _rpg: Anyway, further investigation shows that I'm trying to work around a bug introduced by a recent ACL 9.0 update. So I'm going to drop it in their laps....
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2016-04-07T20:57:15Z Xof: Xach: that is very sad!
2016-04-07T20:57:55Z Bike: drmeister: do people do pattern recognition on graphs? i thought you only used patterns for peephole stuff at a serial level
2016-04-07T20:57:57Z drmeister: Further note to beach: The PDF file above has a slight error.  The code for stack-enclose is not G1070:17 - it's "enter NIL:48" - I fixed the bug in the graphviz rendering method.
2016-04-07T20:58:43Z drmeister: Bike: I'm doing pattern recognition in graphs.   Perhaps going about this the wrong way.
2016-04-07T20:58:58Z Bike: i mean, i don't know the particulars, but i do know that subgraph isomorphism is np-complete.
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2016-04-07T20:59:41Z drmeister: It seems the safest way to do it at this point.  I don't have the machinery in place yet to do type inference that I think I need to do proper dynamic-extent allocated values.
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2016-04-07T21:00:31Z drmeister: Bike: I'm not doing anything fancy, just looking for "funcall" nodes, checking their inputs and checking the instructions that generate those inputs and so on.
2016-04-07T21:00:55Z drmeister: If it fails it's not a problem - just a lost opportunity.
2016-04-07T21:01:46Z p_l|backup: drmeister: is the graph traversable both ways? That is, I figure it's logically one-directed, but can code looking at point B in A->B->C easily lookup A ?
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2016-04-07T21:03:42Z drmeister: p_l|backup: If I understand you correctly - yes.   Cleavir instructions are class instances that have input and output (lists of datum objects) and the datum objects have lists of who generates them and who consumes them.  Those together let me move around in the graph pretty easily.
2016-04-07T21:04:04Z drmeister: The code though - looks like dog food.
2016-04-07T21:04:49Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/zAKjrtpq/
2016-04-07T21:05:05Z drmeister: Oh - it needs this.
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2016-04-07T21:05:15Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UbrSaclp/
2016-04-07T21:07:02Z drmeister: It appears that with my predicate-let* macro I independently invented alexandria's IF-LET
2016-04-07T21:07:22Z drmeister: stassats pointed that out to me.
2016-04-07T21:07:58Z drmeister: Although, mine is clumsier because it has an explicit predicate.
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2016-04-07T21:09:35Z drmeister: If I were to do much more of this I thought a bit of prolog would do nicely here.
2016-04-07T21:09:46Z drmeister: But mixing C++, Common Lisp and Prolog might be a bad idea.
2016-04-07T21:10:39Z drmeister: If this ever takes off I have visions of some disgruntled programmer showing up on my doorstep with a baseball bat in my golden years.
2016-04-07T21:12:02Z Bike: eh. i don't think a greenspun prolog implementation is too far out as far as compilers go. i've heard gcc uses dynamic typing.
2016-04-07T21:12:40Z drmeister never met a programming language he didn't like
2016-04-07T21:13:08Z Bike: have you tried medicine?
2016-04-07T21:14:54Z drmeister: Nope - is it a language?   The google doesn't come up with much.
2016-04-07T21:15:12Z phoe_krk: drmeister: did you try Brainfuck?
2016-04-07T21:15:45Z Bike: i was thinking of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS
2016-04-07T21:16:15Z drmeister: phoe_krk: That's less of a programming language and more of a unfunny joke.
2016-04-07T21:17:01Z Bike: i t hink it's a useful mathematical construct.
2016-04-07T21:17:37Z Bike: and it has a nice name. if mathematicians were to name something like that it'd probably end up as P′′ or some silliness.
2016-04-07T21:18:11Z drmeister: Biologists love their apostrophies
2016-04-07T21:18:30Z drmeister: apostrophes
2016-04-07T21:18:50Z Bike: biologists don't get to name anything. i'm still pretty pissed about map kinase kinase kinase kinase
2016-04-07T21:19:52Z drmeister: Well, that's Nature for you - scratch your nose by reaching through your legs, and over your shoulder.
2016-04-07T21:20:33Z drmeister: It was good enough for trilobites so it's good enough for you.
2016-04-07T21:22:00Z fchurca: Bike: what's that? a protein that moves proteins that move proteins that move proteins that move thingies?
2016-04-07T21:22:21Z Bike: "kianse" actually means it transfers phosphates, but yeah, you've got the idea.
2016-04-07T21:22:24Z Bike: kinase
2016-04-07T21:23:29Z fchurca: so it transfers phosphates to n-1 kinases, which in turn hand them over to n-2 kinases, and so on?
2016-04-07T21:24:08Z Bike: eh, probably not the same phosphate, but yeah
2016-04-07T21:24:37Z fchurca: looks like a certain bearded fellow hasn't heard of recursion, making each step different
2016-04-07T21:24:44Z Bike: it's part of this whole signal pathway that there ahve got to be better possible names for
2016-04-07T21:24:46Z drmeister: fchurca: Oh, it's much better than that.  They transfer a phosphate to the n-1 kinase and that turns on it's catalytic capabilities that lets it transfer a different phosphate to the n-2 kinase and so on.
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2016-04-07T21:25:23Z fchurca: oh so that's the reason why the different n-kinases are different
2016-04-07T21:25:33Z drmeister: It's like flipping a switch on a machine that then manufactures a switch on another machine that manufactures a switch on another machine.
2016-04-07T21:25:35Z Bike: fchurca: there are proteins that phosphorylate themselves too. and work in cycles. and every other possible combination of silliness, don't worry
2016-04-07T21:25:53Z drmeister: That gives biological circuits "gain".
2016-04-07T21:26:07Z fchurca: interesting
2016-04-07T21:26:37Z Bike: camkii, off the top of my head, and i want you to know i was told it was "the Megatron of kinases" by a real professor
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2016-04-07T21:26:50Z drmeister would like a word or two with mother Nature.
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2016-04-07T21:28:13Z drmeister: s/it\'s/its/g  (sigh)
2016-04-07T21:28:37Z fchurca: has anybody tried to implement a lisp that processes dna?
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2016-04-07T21:28:58Z fchurca: kind of a wetware lm
2016-04-07T21:29:02Z Bike: there's biobike, which has nothing to do with me.
2016-04-07T21:29:23Z Bike: if you want a DNA computer i saw someone compiling verilog into regulatory networks the other day
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2016-04-07T21:30:14Z fchurca: bike: this one or something else? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioBIKE
2016-04-07T21:30:25Z Bike: that one.
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2016-04-07T21:31:14Z Bike: plus i hear there's some dude making protein design software.
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2016-04-07T21:32:41Z fchurca: my question was more on the lines of lisp-machines implemented in wetware using dna for sexprs and the such, but biobike sounds pretty cool now that i gave it a quick read
2016-04-07T21:33:35Z Bike: dna computers are too novel. you might as well ask about physarum computers
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2016-04-07T21:34:09Z Bike: if you have a hardware spec lying around, here you go, though https://github.com/CIDARLAB/cello
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2016-04-07T21:35:31Z fchurca: a physarum computer programmer must surely be a fun-guy
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2016-04-07T21:37:42Z Bike: someday i hope to live in a world where people have heard that joke often enough to find it annoying.
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2016-04-07T21:38:54Z fchurca: when that time arrives, i think that i'm-ould
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2016-04-07T21:43:00Z fchurca: if anybody ports emacs to that, it would be running slime inside emacs inside slime again
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2016-04-07T21:57:29Z fchurca: bbl
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2016-04-07T22:08:43Z phoe_krk: drmeister: I was thinking about Rust as of late, and the features they have in their language.
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2016-04-07T22:09:08Z phoe_krk: And ended up thinking how to implement the same stuff in Common Lisp. Turned out it's easier than I thought.
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2016-04-07T22:45:08Z drmeister: Baaaaad things happen when your crappy pattern recognition code incorrectly allocates closures on the stack.
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2016-04-07T22:46:39Z drmeister: Stole when-let* macro from Alexandria and trying again.
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2016-04-07T23:20:58Z DeadTrickster: scymtym, looks like travis job for your fiveam pr failed
2016-04-07T23:21:37Z DeadTrickster: yeah asdf-flv for example
2016-04-07T23:21:40Z DeadTrickster: what is that?
2016-04-07T23:22:15Z DeadTrickster: ah file local variables
2016-04-07T23:22:17Z DeadTrickster: nice
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2016-04-07T23:56:55Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: you may be interested in http://home.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/LinearLisp.html (due to the Rust Comments)
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2016-04-08T00:04:55Z Fare: is there an up-to-date git mirror for hu.dwim.stefil ?
2016-04-08T00:05:39Z drmeister: WHEN-LET* is a really, really nice macro.
2016-04-08T00:05:42Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/UM2iYMMj/
2016-04-08T00:06:01Z drmeister: That reads much nicer than my previous attempt - it seems to be working too - bonus.
2016-04-08T00:07:35Z Xach is reminded of http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3248033830373991@naggum.no.html
2016-04-08T00:07:48Z Fare: drmeister, is it better than alexandria:if-let ?
2016-04-08T00:08:06Z Fare: or than using nest?
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2016-04-08T00:09:12Z drmeister: Fare: I copied WHEN-LET* from alexandria - with attribution.
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2016-04-08T00:10:04Z drmeister: What is nest?
2016-04-08T00:10:34Z PuercoPop: drmeister: another binding construct, that comes with uiop iirc
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2016-04-08T00:18:58Z Fare: uiop:nest
2016-04-08T00:19:31Z Fare: it's NOT a binding construct, it's a wait to nest binding constructs without indenting your way to hell
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2016-04-08T00:26:19Z drmeister: Xach: So Naggum's WHEREAS looks like a souped up version of WHEN-LET
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2016-04-08T00:29:10Z drmeister: Based on that Naggum article and further thought I'll change my code to:
2016-04-08T00:29:12Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/t6rqGvnl/
2016-04-08T00:32:18Z drmeister: And now Prolog is clearly overkill.
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2016-04-08T00:49:38Z drmeister: I can essentially get what I was looking for with an (or (when-let* ...) (when-let* ...) (when-let* ...))
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2016-04-08T01:04:48Z zRecursive: Can hunchentoot afford a bit heavy site ?  Are there any real sites supported by hunchentoot now ?
2016-04-08T01:05:58Z Fare: zRecursive, hunchentoot used to serve QRes, but that wasn't very heavy (or rather, it was load-balanced behind enough machines so none was overwhelmed).
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2016-04-08T01:08:10Z zRecursive: glad to hear of it
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2016-04-08T01:45:15Z warweasle: XachX: FYI, I think i fixed the problem with clinch.
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2016-04-08T01:54:14Z drmeister: Well, stack allocated closures for call-with-variable-bound got me bupkis.
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2016-04-08T01:55:10Z drmeister: Time to compile ASDF without stack allocated closures 16m47s   with stack allocated closures 17m36s
2016-04-08T01:55:19Z drmeister: (sigh)
2016-04-08T01:56:32Z drmeister: Trying with MPS
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2016-04-08T04:44:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: I find let-each (http://paste.lisp.org/display/312496) to be handy as well.
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2016-04-08T04:52:10Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: What is fw.lu?
2016-04-08T04:52:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: It's my utility package.
2016-04-08T04:52:25Z loke: so what does let-each do?
2016-04-08T04:52:55Z fiddlerwoaroof: binds each form to the symbol specified by the (:be) keyword argument
2016-04-08T04:53:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: It helps to flatten deeply nested forms.
2016-04-08T04:54:21Z H4ns does not get it
2016-04-08T04:54:32Z loke also don't get it
2016-04-08T04:54:54Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+6P4G/1
2016-04-08T04:55:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: And, predictably, the indentation is horrible...
2016-04-08T04:56:09Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: I have to admit that I prefer the plain style.
2016-04-08T04:56:46Z H4ns concurs
2016-04-08T04:57:02Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke: I think the example I gave wasn't the best.  Sometimes, I find it makes the text more readable.
2016-04-08T04:57:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/text/code/
2016-04-08T04:57:20Z H4ns: seems like an example of macro abuse
2016-04-08T04:57:36Z loke: fiddlerwoaroof: Yes, but in those cases I typically use an explicit LET* form with variable names explitily explaining what the form is.
2016-04-08T04:57:53Z H4ns: if a macro can "sometimes" make the code more readable, it "most of the times" should not be written.
2016-04-08T04:59:44Z loke: Here's an example of such LET* form in my code:
2016-04-08T04:59:45Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/api.lisp#L336
2016-04-08T05:00:32Z H4ns: loke: oh boy, that looks messy too! :)
2016-04-08T05:00:37Z loke: H4ns: it does
2016-04-08T05:00:53Z loke: H4ns: That's because the LET* sequence only ends up in the bessiest of codes.
2016-04-08T05:00:55Z loke: messiest
2016-04-08T05:01:13Z H4ns scrolls, but then stops
2016-04-08T05:01:23Z H4ns: it was such a bright morning, but now /o\
2016-04-08T05:01:24Z H4ns: :D
2016-04-08T05:02:16Z loke: H4ns: It's a function that really shouldn't even exist :-)
2016-04-08T05:02:39Z fiddlerwoaroof: loke: I find that all the additional names just add noise.
2016-04-08T05:02:43Z loke goes to look for some even harder-to-follow code.
2016-04-08T05:03:21Z fiddlerwoaroof: The inspiration for my macro came from this, in a general sort of way: https://clojuredocs.org/clojure.core/-%3E
2016-04-08T05:03:41Z Fare rebuilds a bunch of lisp code using bazel
2016-04-08T05:03:46Z loke: H4ns: I think this is one of the biggest Lisp functions I've ever written. It's also a bit of a mess, but it's hard to clean up:
2016-04-08T05:03:47Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/rabbitmq-notifications.lisp#L280
2016-04-08T05:04:47Z Fare realizes that to demo compiling lisp code with bazel that links with C libraries, I'll have to write rules to compile said C libraries with bazel :-( :-(
2016-04-08T05:05:00Z loke: Fare: what is bazel?
2016-04-08T05:05:02Z Fare: what cool Lisp application is there that uses C libraries?
2016-04-08T05:05:15Z H4ns: fiddlerwoaroof: ah, suddenly it makes sense.  why did you not call it -> or as-> ?
2016-04-08T05:05:21Z Fare: I could show off my workout timer, but it's pretty trivial as far as applications go.
2016-04-08T05:05:26Z loke: Fare: Potato. :-)  I use plenty of them.
2016-04-08T05:05:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: H4ns: because it's establishing a binding, so I thought it should be have a name starting with let->
2016-04-08T05:05:57Z loke: Fare: I think my best two libraries using CFFI is cl-rabbit and cl-gss
2016-04-08T05:05:59Z fiddlerwoaroof: :s/>//
2016-04-08T05:06:13Z Fare: loke: if possible an application that only uses one or a couple C libraries would make it easier, so I don't have too much to port.
2016-04-08T05:06:23Z loke: Fare: cl-rabbit then?
2016-04-08T05:06:27Z Zhivago: Using C libraries makes Lisp applications uncool.
2016-04-08T05:06:38Z Fare: loke, I want an *application*, not just a library
2016-04-08T05:06:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: H4ns: it also reads better (in English, at least), the way it's named.
2016-04-08T05:06:55Z loke: Fare: cl-gss is even smaller, more clear, and (IMHO) well-written, but unless you're usiong Kerberos it's not a useful library
2016-04-08T05:07:01Z Fare: Zhivago, being able to statically link C libraries into a SBCL core+image makes bazel cool.
2016-04-08T05:07:09Z fiddlerwoaroof: H4ns: I think "let each (thing) be * in x, then y then z"
2016-04-08T05:07:19Z H4ns: fiddlerwoaroof: ok, i can relate to that.  i'd not use a keyword argument and maybe call it let-thread, or maybe i'd just write clojure :)
2016-04-08T05:07:51Z Zhivago: Well, bazel isn't a lisp application. :)
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2016-04-08T05:08:02Z Fare: no, it's a humongous java server :-(
2016-04-08T05:08:25Z Fare: but hopefully, it'll shame some Lisper into writing a better build system.
2016-04-08T05:08:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: H4ns: I think this is a better example, because it's being used in a simpler context: http://git.elangley.org/edwlan/timesheet.git/blob/master/freshbooks.lisp#L188
2016-04-08T05:09:06Z Zhivago: Fare: I think that adjusting the criteria of cool for lisp would be worthwhile, but difficult.
2016-04-08T05:09:28Z Fare: Zhivago, which criteria are they?
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2016-04-08T05:10:42Z Zhivago: The 'everything in lisp' one is probably the worst.
2016-04-08T05:10:55Z H4ns: fiddlerwoaroof: i like it in general, but i'd question the naming and the argument list if i were in the position to
2016-04-08T05:11:18Z Fare: the difficulty of building mixed-language deliverables certainly didn't help.
2016-04-08T05:11:43Z Fare: Hopefully, that difficulty can be removed through proper infrastructure
2016-04-08T05:11:53Z Zhivago: Hopefully. :)
2016-04-08T05:12:10Z Fare: bazel is a proof of concept that it can
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2016-04-08T05:16:20Z Zhivago: It will be interesting to see if bazel takes off outside Google.
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2016-04-08T05:21:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Fare: is there a five-minute bazel + lisp introduction?
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2016-04-08T05:29:16Z pillton: Fare: Zhivago: Aren't things like CORBA and COM/XPCOM meant to solve these problems?
2016-04-08T05:30:06Z Zhivago: Did CORBA ever make anything cool?
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2016-04-08T05:31:03Z pillton: I don't know. I don't think I'm the best person to classify things as cool and uncool.
2016-04-08T05:33:42Z loke is now trying to build potato on ARM SBCL.
2016-04-08T05:33:53Z loke: This will be interesting.
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2016-04-08T07:15:30Z scymtym_: DeadTrickster: apart from that, the fiveam PR also requires a bordeaux-threads change which has its own PR (https://github.com/sionescu/bordeaux-threads/pull/19)
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2016-04-08T07:17:07Z Fare: fiddlerwoaroof, see doc/ in the bazelisp github
2016-04-08T07:17:52Z Fare: Zhivago, bazel will probably not overtake the world, just because that's not the ambition of the team, and it's not going to happen without them doing work.
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2016-04-08T07:25:01Z phoe_work: Hey - did anyone else around have a problem with rainbow-delimiters in Slime REPL?
2016-04-08T07:25:11Z phoe_work: I'm trying to configure it - and failing, sadly.
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2016-04-08T07:32:53Z ukari: you mean rainbow-parentheses?
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2016-04-08T07:35:27Z phoe_work: ukari: yes
2016-04-08T07:35:43Z phoe_work: It looks like some fontlock stuff is broken.
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2016-04-08T07:37:02Z phoe_work: And I have no idea why. The same config worked fine on my home machine
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2016-04-08T08:06:02Z dim: Fatal error in "buildapp" : Fault during
2016-04-08T08:06:02Z dim: Fatal error in "buildapp" : Stack overflow on temp stack.
2016-04-08T08:06:07Z dim: does that ring a bell?
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2016-04-08T09:32:16Z attila_lendvai: angavrilov: ping. https://github.com/angavrilov/cl-gpu/issues/7 I'm also around here if you want a faster turnaround time
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2016-04-08T09:52:34Z damke: Hi!
2016-04-08T09:52:56Z damke: I'm new to Lisp.
2016-04-08T09:53:19Z damke: What do the hashes in '#\#' mean?
2016-04-08T09:53:46Z damke: e.g. (setf (elt str 0) #\#)
2016-04-08T09:54:23Z DeadTrickster: character #
2016-04-08T09:54:24Z attila_lendvai: damke: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
2016-04-08T09:54:42Z DeadTrickster: #\! -> character !
2016-04-08T09:55:28Z damke: Ah, thanks
2016-04-08T09:55:52Z damke: attila_lendvai: I feel stupid now. I am going through that book, I should have searched it first :P
2016-04-08T09:56:30Z damke: It's on page 122 under the 'Characters' heading...
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2016-04-08T10:10:10Z igam: damke: in general, # is a dispatching reader macro character.  The exact meaning depends on the first non-digit character following it.
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2016-04-08T10:11:56Z phoe_work: ^
2016-04-08T10:12:55Z phoe_work: #( means an array, #S means a structure, #C means a complex number, #\ means a character - and so on. Everything depends on the character after the #.
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2016-04-08T10:15:44Z igam: damke: in general, # is a dispatching reader macro character.  The exact meaning depends on the first non-digit character following it.
2016-04-08T10:17:47Z igam: eg. #2A is for 2D arrays.  #5( is for a 5-slot vector.
2016-04-08T10:19:26Z loke: igam: I didn't know that #( suppored numeric argument. What is the purpose for that?
2016-04-08T10:20:38Z phoe_work: loke: multi-dimensional arrays
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2016-04-08T10:22:18Z phoe_work: #3(((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)) ((4 5 6) (7 8 9) (1 2 3)) ((7 8 9) (1 2 3) (4 5 6)))
2016-04-08T10:22:29Z phoe_work: so you have a cube now, right
2016-04-08T10:22:32Z phoe_work: 3x3x3
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2016-04-08T10:39:34Z edgar-rft imagines a Rubick's-cube game where if the player is required to type in every change in the cube as a pattern in #3(...) syntax while getting minus points for every typo.
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2016-04-08T10:43:29Z damke: Thanks for the explaination guys!
2016-04-08T10:44:27Z damke: edgar-rft: I'm gonna note that idea down for a learning project :P
2016-04-08T10:44:43Z loke: phoe_krk: You don't need the number for that, do you?
2016-04-08T10:44:56Z loke: #((1 2) (3 4))
2016-04-08T10:45:22Z loke: Your example also works fine without the 3
2016-04-08T10:45:36Z loke: Oh, I found a case: #10(1)
2016-04-08T10:45:49Z loke: That could be useful I guess
2016-04-08T10:46:52Z edgar-rft: #((1 2) (3 4)) is a vector (one-dimensional array) where every element is a two-element list
2016-04-08T10:47:25Z edgar-rft: #2((1 2) (3 4)) is a two-dimensional array
2016-04-08T10:47:48Z loke: (array-dimensions #((1 2) (3 4))) → 2
2016-04-08T10:48:00Z loke: (array-dimensions #2((1 2) (3 4))) → 2
2016-04-08T10:48:25Z loke: (array-dimensions #2a((1 2) (3 4))) → (2 2)
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2016-04-08T10:48:39Z _death: edgar-rft: no, that is a vector with size 2
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2016-04-08T10:49:36Z edgar-rft: ah, yes the "a" makes it an array - thank you
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2016-04-08T11:20:43Z attila_lendvai: damke: no worries. it's generally polite to ask only those questions that you failed to find yourself in a reasonable time. and even then it's wise to learn the meta-level, i.e. how to find stuff. but then sometimes you have questions that are not this specific... then feel free to ask those here.
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2016-04-08T11:51:21Z cross: [A
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2016-04-08T13:25:54Z DeadTrickster: hunchentoot jsut gave me 13Kreq/s
2016-04-08T13:25:57Z DeadTrickster: pretty decent
2016-04-08T13:26:21Z DeadTrickster: it was just Hello world though )
2016-04-08T13:26:22Z DeadTrickster: Requests/sec:  12287.95
2016-04-08T13:26:26Z DeadTrickster: average
2016-04-08T13:27:36Z fchurca: nice; specs? was it in a loopback?
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2016-04-08T13:28:46Z DeadTrickster: yea loopback specs - vm on i7 920.
2016-04-08T13:28:58Z DeadTrickster: max memory usage around 270mb
2016-04-08T13:29:00Z DeadTrickster: sbcl
2016-04-08T13:29:01Z DeadTrickster: x64
2016-04-08T13:29:40Z DeadTrickster: 95 percentile of processing time - 9.5 ms
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2016-04-08T13:30:27Z Xach: that is not the fastest possible, but it is a pleasant problem to be so popular that those specs are the bottleneck
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2016-04-08T13:34:13Z dwchandler: 9.5 ms is what, exactly?
2016-04-08T13:34:41Z dwchandler: time to serve whole request?
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2016-04-08T13:35:05Z DeadTrickster: kind of
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2016-04-08T13:54:39Z aks`: is it possible to compile Common Lisp into C, then include it in iOs project and compile?
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2016-04-08T13:55:38Z Xach: aks`: I think if I was interested in that, I'd check out MOCL.
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2016-04-08T13:57:57Z eschulte1: any suggestions for a function to quickly calculate a hash key from a constant alist (composed of symbols strings and numbers)?
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2016-04-08T13:58:08Z aks`: Xach: Thanks, I'm aware of this option. Still don't know though if lisp would be a good option or i should go with modern c++
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2016-04-08T13:59:20Z dlowe: I would use swift before c++
2016-04-08T13:59:39Z dlowe: but I'd use mocl before swift
2016-04-08T14:00:18Z dlowe: (maybe.  I haven't actually seen mocl in action)
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2016-04-08T14:04:28Z dwchandler: a couple of months ago I tried to track down what people were saying about mocl. the results were fairly positive.
2016-04-08T14:05:37Z aks`: I want share my logic betweend Android, ios, and my linux for fast prototyping
2016-04-08T14:05:56Z aks`: mocl seems legit, but there is no info on implementation status
2016-04-08T14:05:57Z dlowe: dwchandler: are there any examples of apps right now using mocl?
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2016-04-08T14:06:26Z dlowe: because if I were the mocl folks, I would be marketing the crap out of that, but there's nothing about it atm
2016-04-08T14:06:31Z dwchandler: dlowe: there are, but I didn't make notes and I don't remember details :(
2016-04-08T14:06:37Z dlowe: hkk
2016-04-08T14:06:39Z dlowe: hmm
2016-04-08T14:06:56Z dwchandler: dug out of reddit comments and such-like
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2016-04-08T14:07:45Z aks`: their site make it looks like a v small, experimental project
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2016-04-08T14:09:21Z Xach: It's pretty small, but he charges real money and offers real support.
2016-04-08T14:09:42Z warweasle: Xach: Did clinch work for you?
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2016-04-08T14:09:50Z warweasle: Xach: Lisp support?
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2016-04-08T14:12:41Z xristos: is there a faster way to zero out a simple-array than iteration->setf ?
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2016-04-08T14:13:34Z Xach: xristos: not a vector?
2016-04-08T14:13:43Z Xach: warweasle: clinch built nicely, thanks.
2016-04-08T14:13:57Z xristos: (simple-array '(unsigned-byte 32) (24 65536))
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2016-04-08T14:14:56Z xristos: i think i remember some jsnell/pkhuong voodoo
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2016-04-08T14:15:30Z xristos: i guess it makes more sense to just have them in foreign memory
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2016-04-08T14:16:42Z aks`: Guys, do you think MOCL supports modules?
2016-04-08T14:17:09Z DeadTrickster: how to use trivial-features in an asd file? say I want certain deps to be loaded only on linux
2016-04-08T14:17:10Z aks`: It looks like whole your lisp code must go into the app.lisp file
2016-04-08T14:17:59Z p_l: aks`: no it doesn't have to
2016-04-08T14:18:07Z p_l: it supports ASDF
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2016-04-08T14:23:34Z aks`: p_l: so it's possible to define packages and use it in mocl app. It's still necessary to add (declaim call-in) to all of IOS accessible function, right?
2016-04-08T14:23:54Z p_l: yes
2016-04-08T14:24:18Z p_l: declaim handles interface shim generation
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2016-04-08T14:59:26Z warweasle: Could cffi support (cffi:make-shareable-byte-arrays with floats and integers?
2016-04-08T14:59:42Z warweasle: Is there a cross platform way to do this?
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2016-04-08T15:03:25Z Bike: the implementation seems to be j ust a normal make-array on everything but allegro anyway, with-pointer-to-vector-data is harder
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2016-04-08T15:11:01Z warweasle: Bike: I can do it with sbcl, but I can't find any libraries which might wrap the functionality. A sort of trivial-C-vectors?
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2016-04-08T15:11:35Z Bike: there's static-vectors
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2016-04-08T15:13:35Z warweasle: Bike: Ah, I knew there had to be something.
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2016-04-08T15:14:09Z Xach: Hmm, I'm seeing an odd difference in y-or-n-p behavior in sbcl depending on whether I'm in slime or out of it.
2016-04-08T15:14:32Z Xach: I'm spawning a sub-sbcl that calls y-or-n-p, and in slime, it continues without waiting for input (which is what i want), but outside of slime, it hangs up waiting for a response.
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2016-04-08T15:49:25Z beach: Good evening everyone!
2016-04-08T15:50:00Z vydd: hello, beach!
2016-04-08T15:50:32Z zdm: Evening, beach.
2016-04-08T15:51:47Z oleo: evening!
2016-04-08T15:56:39Z beach hopes that someday he will understand this obsession of wanting to bootstrap Common Lisp implementations form some other, presumably "simpler" language.
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2016-04-08T15:58:28Z warweasle: beach: You can't understand obsession. By definition.
2016-04-08T15:58:44Z beach: Hmm, good point.
2016-04-08T15:59:13Z warweasle: beach: Why am I making a game engine in lisp? Obsession. I don't even know why.
2016-04-08T16:00:27Z beach: I am guessing because it amuses you.
2016-04-08T16:00:55Z beach: Whereas bootstrapping Common Lisp from a "simpler" language is just painful and frustrating.
2016-04-08T16:01:32Z warweasle: beach: I've never considered myself a masochist.
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2016-04-08T16:01:49Z beach: Exactly my point.
2016-04-08T16:02:45Z igam: beach: not simplier language. More common language.  They tell us: write program P, use language X.  If we had a CL implementation written in X for any language X, our problem would be solved. :-)
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2016-04-08T16:03:25Z dwchandler: beach: I'd love it if CL implementations would easily bootstrap from C. Not because C is simpler, but because it's everywhere.
2016-04-08T16:03:39Z igam: of course, the implementation strategy could be to write CL compiler targetting X in CL.
2016-04-08T16:03:40Z beach: igam: On the contrary, we would have a nightmare of maintenance problems.
2016-04-08T16:04:21Z igam: The idiocy was in constraining to the language X in the first place.
2016-04-08T16:04:39Z beach: dwchandler: A Common Lisp implementation is but an apt-get away.
2016-04-08T16:05:35Z dwchandler: beach: first I'd have to install linux to use apt-get
2016-04-08T16:05:45Z beach: *sigh*
2016-04-08T16:06:05Z igam: well, svn checkout of ccl away ;-)
2016-04-08T16:06:20Z dwchandler: no, not that easy
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2016-04-08T16:06:44Z dwchandler: getting ccl on openbsd is not a few hours, or a weekend
2016-04-08T16:07:14Z igam: Yes. We need more portable implementations.
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2016-04-08T16:07:21Z beach: dwchandler: Now, what implementation were you thinking of bootstrapping on openbsd using C?
2016-04-08T16:07:42Z drewc: CLISP bootstraps from C, as does ECL, non? Or am I mistaken when I see bootstrapping where there is none?
2016-04-08T16:08:39Z beach: dwchandler: The bigger problem is to find a Common Lisp implementation that will build at all on "unusual" systems.  Once you have such an implementation, your bootstrapping problem is also solved.
2016-04-08T16:08:43Z dwchandler: beach: none. I'm not obsessive enough ;-)
2016-04-08T16:08:56Z beach: Yeah, that's what I thought. :)
2016-04-08T16:09:03Z dwchandler: sbcl works on openbsd
2016-04-08T16:09:13Z beach: So, what is the problem here?
2016-04-08T16:09:18Z beach: Just obsession?
2016-04-08T16:09:30Z zdm: Were all illogical! :)
2016-04-08T16:09:42Z dwchandler: so you think I can use sbcl to bootstrap ccl in a fairly trivial manner?
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2016-04-08T16:10:06Z Xach: no.
2016-04-08T16:10:11Z beach: dwchandler: I doubt it.  I don't think CCL was written that way.
2016-04-08T16:10:21Z dwchandler: Xach: that was rhetorical
2016-04-08T16:10:28Z moore33: howdy
2016-04-08T16:10:53Z Xach: I'm ready and willing to answer rhetorical questions all day!
2016-04-08T16:10:59Z dwchandler: :)
2016-04-08T16:11:27Z beach: Anyway, fascinating discussion that in no way helps me understand this obsession; on the part of implementers of Common Lisp systems, is of course what I am referring to.
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2016-04-08T16:13:13Z beach: But for all those obsessive implementers out there, I will suggest this project again: Bootstrap Common Lisp.  It is a Common Lisp implementation written C, but it is absolutely not designed to be used for writing applications; only for bootstrapping other Common Lisp implementations written entirely in Common Lisp.
2016-04-08T16:13:39Z dwchandler: For commercial implementations the answer is what it's always been: if the platform is profitable enough then port to it
2016-04-08T16:14:21Z dwchandler: For open source implementations the motivations get more complex
2016-04-08T16:14:47Z jdz: isn't this problem because of some platfroms (like Debian maybe) requiring things to be bootstrappable from source without requiring a binary blob?
2016-04-08T16:14:47Z moore33: beach: Jumping in late, but why do you want that?
2016-04-08T16:14:54Z beach: I don't.
2016-04-08T16:15:01Z moore33: Oh :)
2016-04-08T16:15:05Z beach: But it would silence the obsessive implementers.
2016-04-08T16:15:35Z jdz: i'm not exactly sure how they compile things from source without having a C compiler in there, but that's a completely different discussion
2016-04-08T16:15:36Z dwchandler: Where "obsessive" means not beach's goals ;-)
2016-04-08T16:15:44Z moore33: I would think that cross-compilation would keep such people amused.
2016-04-08T16:15:57Z beach: jdz: by having a Common Lisp compiler instead.
2016-04-08T16:16:30Z beach: You want to build from C?  No problem.  1. Build Bootstrap Common Lisp using C.  2. Build your implementation entirely written in Common Lisp using Bootstrap Common Lisp.
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2016-04-08T16:17:22Z jdz: yes, like use clisp as a bootstrap CL, and then compile SBCL, done
2016-04-08T16:18:11Z beach: jdz: Except with the difference that CLISP was meant for writing applications, so it has a lot of C code to make it usable in terms of performance etc.  That also makes it harder to maintain.
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2016-04-08T16:18:56Z beach: jdz: And, in fact, it is not maintained right now.
2016-04-08T16:18:57Z xyh: is there a function like string->integer ?
2016-04-08T16:19:12Z jdz: xyh: PARSE-INTEGER?
2016-04-08T16:19:18Z jdz: clhs parse-integer
2016-04-08T16:19:18Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_parse_.htm
2016-04-08T16:19:19Z xyh: thanks
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2016-04-08T16:19:36Z moore33: By the way, IIUC, ccl's compiler blobs are sufficiently low level, and system neutral, that in a new port the kernel loads in the compiler and then compiles the rest of the runtime.
2016-04-08T16:19:53Z moore33: But generating the compiler requires gbyers' magic.
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2016-04-08T16:25:35Z zdm: what is `-*- mode:lisp;coding:utf-8 -*-` at the top of lisp programs called? ive also seen this for different languages like bash scripts.
2016-04-08T16:25:50Z zdm: i can guess what its doing but i dont know what people call it
2016-04-08T16:27:28Z reb`: zdm: It's understood by Emacs, so I'd look in the Emacs manual for its official name.
2016-04-08T16:28:30Z beach: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Specifying-File-Variables.html
2016-04-08T16:28:38Z beach: They only call it "the first line".
2016-04-08T16:29:05Z beach: or "a -*- line"
2016-04-08T16:29:28Z zdm: ah, didnt realize it was emacs specific, thank you
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2016-04-08T16:29:39Z beach: Oh, OK.
2016-04-08T16:30:05Z xyh: is there a function like STRING->KEYWORD ?
2016-04-08T16:30:42Z axion: zdm: it's called a local variables specification
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2016-04-08T16:32:28Z beach: clhs intern
2016-04-08T16:32:28Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm
2016-04-08T16:32:40Z beach: xyh: ↑
2016-04-08T16:32:50Z xyh: I remember now symbols with ":" are tricky ~
2016-04-08T16:33:05Z axion: tricky?
2016-04-08T16:33:31Z xyh: aren't they >_<
2016-04-08T16:33:37Z beach: Nope.
2016-04-08T16:33:46Z xyh: ok then >_<
2016-04-08T16:34:32Z axion: they're symbols that live in a specific package
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2016-04-08T16:36:32Z axion: if anything, they make a lot of things _less_ tricky
2016-04-08T16:36:42Z fchurca catches up with the log
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2016-04-08T16:39:26Z fchurca: xyh: do you mean package-name:symbol-name, or symbols actually containing #\: ?
2016-04-08T16:41:20Z beach: dwchandler: Let me put it this way: Suppose you want to install a Common Lisp implementation L on some system S.  Now, presumably L was written so that it will actually install on S, or otherwise you would have no desire to install it on S.  The only catch is that L requires a conforming Common Lisp implementation to be built.
2016-04-08T16:41:25Z beach: dwchandler: But then, very likely, someone else has already built L for S, so the binary is available.  In order to build L on S, you then just install the binary and then bootstrap.
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2016-04-08T16:44:01Z xyh: fchurca: I am trying to write an interpreter for a little language,
2016-04-08T16:44:02Z xyh: I simply use sexp as syntax, but '(t : type) is not a list >_<
2016-04-08T16:44:04Z xyh: thus the perfect char for typing can not be easily used.
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2016-04-08T16:44:33Z dwchandler: beach: "very likely, someone else has already built L for S". True enough, if you're talking about Windows, Linux, or OS X, but otherwise not so much
2016-04-08T16:44:45Z dlowe: xyh: maybe '(t . type) would work for you.
2016-04-08T16:45:36Z dwchandler: beach: From very limited looking, lisp implementations tend to want their own unique extensions in their compiler
2016-04-08T16:46:25Z dwchandler: I.e., you can't compile CCL with SBCL, or vice versa
2016-04-08T16:46:30Z beach: dwchandler: Obviously I am not expressing myself very well.  I am talking about the IMPLEMENTER of L.  I see no reason why that person would prefer to use a language other than Common Lisp.
2016-04-08T16:47:04Z beach: dwchandler: I am not talking about a random Common Lisp programmer who wants a random implementation on a random system.
2016-04-08T16:47:19Z beach: Dinner.  I'll check in briefly later.
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2016-04-08T16:49:48Z dwchandler: beach: Ok, I see your meaning now. Makes sense. And of course I'm definitely not talking about "implementer", because without volunteer effort from various platforms it's too much to expect.
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2016-04-08T16:51:32Z dwchandler: beach: For instance, Don Stewart of haskell/ghc fame was involved in porting efforts to openbsd many years ago. That didn't (and couldn't) last too long. How thin could be spread himself? After languishing for years, the openbsd port was fixed up and maintained by ... openbsd people.
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2016-04-08T16:52:44Z dwchandler: beach: that's how most languages get on minority/niche platforms, AFAIK. The easier the job is, the more likely it'll be done and kept up.
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2016-04-08T16:53:54Z dwchandler: beach: whether lisp implementors care enough to bother with making it easier for outsiders to port is another matter, and who am I to question their priorities or goals?
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2016-04-08T16:54:49Z dwchandler: beach: but as a lisp user, I want my choice of implementation on my choice of platform, and am willing to do *some* effort to make it happen.
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2016-04-08T16:55:47Z dwchandler: beach: but I, personally, am not obsessive enough to spend *huge* amounts of my free time trying.
2016-04-08T17:00:24Z jurov: Does anyone use slime trace dialog with ECL? I can't get it to work, it refuses to show any traces.
2016-04-08T17:00:25Z fchurca: xyh: have you tried this? '(t |:| type)
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2016-04-08T17:01:46Z jdz: i that case might as well use '(x -> type) or somesuch
2016-04-08T17:02:05Z jdz: bonus points for picking a symbol from research papers
2016-04-08T17:02:15Z xyh: fchurca: I know that works, but that looks not as cute as :
2016-04-08T17:02:57Z moore33: dwchandler: I believe you can compile sbcl using ccl; at least, this used to be true.
2016-04-08T17:03:13Z fchurca: i would go with something more along the lines of -> or ., as dlowe and jdz have said then
2016-04-08T17:03:27Z dwchandler: moore33: maybe it still is true
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2016-04-08T17:04:28Z scymtym: moore33: dwchandler: it is definitely true. this job https://ci.cor-lab.org/job/sbcl-master/ builds sbcl with sbcl, ccl and clisp for every batch of commits
2016-04-08T17:04:39Z xyh: I end up using '(t :> type), but nevermind, my little language is humble.
2016-04-08T17:04:45Z moore33: scymtym: Cool.
2016-04-08T17:05:01Z dwchandler: Yeah, that's really nice :)
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2016-04-08T17:05:34Z scymtym: takes a few hours for each build, though
2016-04-08T17:06:32Z fchurca: :> is cute too
2016-04-08T17:07:14Z fchurca: have you heard of smilisp?
2016-04-08T17:07:34Z xyh: no I will search search
2016-04-08T17:07:45Z Bike: maybe it's not important, but <: (and thus :>) are common notation for subtyping
2016-04-08T17:07:57Z fchurca: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/misc.php#smilisp
2016-04-08T17:08:10Z fchurca: https://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/software/lisp/smilisp.png
2016-04-08T17:08:56Z xyh: haha
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2016-04-08T17:14:40Z dwchandler: so for CL implementations openbsd has abcl, clisp, ecl, sbcl. not bad, really :)
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2016-04-08T17:22:45Z fchurca: has anybody tried common lisp on google app engine? i heard about a wrapper for abcl in a java instance around 2009ish
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2016-04-08T17:33:08Z drmeister: Why does ECL use EVAL in DEFINE-STRUCTURE?
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2016-04-08T17:33:12Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/aRvbxsII/
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2016-04-08T17:33:43Z drmeister: Line 9.   What is the purpose of (eval `(defclass ...
2016-04-08T17:33:44Z akkad finds sbcl on openbsd to not perform as well as the other bsds
2016-04-08T17:33:45Z drmeister: Oh wait
2016-04-08T17:33:57Z akkad: but it has threads.
2016-04-08T17:33:58Z drmeister: I see.    defclass is a macro
2016-04-08T17:35:56Z Bike: it should be able to use mop ensure-class, though.
2016-04-08T17:35:59Z joshe: it has threads on exactly one platform :)
2016-04-08T17:36:56Z Bike: and install-method, which i assume is something like add-method
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2016-04-08T17:37:27Z fchurca: joshe: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Threading ?
2016-04-08T17:37:47Z fchurca: oh, by default
2016-04-08T17:38:00Z joshe: fchurca: I was responding to akkad
2016-04-08T17:38:48Z fchurca: and i was chiming in. sorry if it bothered.
2016-04-08T17:40:26Z akkad: joshe: it supports more than one?
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2016-04-08T17:40:56Z akkad: I guess aarm64 is important too.
2016-04-08T17:41:20Z fchurca: it appears to support threads on other platforms, but you have to deliberately enable them and rebuild sbcl there
2016-04-08T17:41:35Z joshe: some people use 32-bit x86
2016-04-08T17:41:49Z joshe: there's ppc, but I don't think a anyone really uses it
2016-04-08T17:41:54Z akkad: performance and non-x86/arm are probably not an issue
2016-04-08T17:42:30Z akkad: yeah... gets to a point where the memory requirements for sbcl are > than the memory available on most of these platforms.
2016-04-08T17:42:33Z joshe: well, non-linux probably isn't an issue either ;)
2016-04-08T17:42:52Z akkad: yeah, it is about that time for a OS shootdown.
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2016-04-08T19:05:29Z fchurca: hi eudoxia
2016-04-08T19:05:34Z eudoxia: yo
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2016-04-08T19:06:31Z fchurca: have you considering updating/releasing a 2016 version of your "state of the common lisp ecosystem" article?
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2016-04-08T19:07:33Z eudoxia: i probably will, later this year, for two reasons
2016-04-08T19:07:42Z eudoxia: 1. it's meant to be a year-in-review sort of thing
2016-04-08T19:08:05Z eudoxia: 2. by pushing it further into the future, there's more room for change, and so a follow-up becomes more useful
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2016-04-08T19:08:38Z eudoxia: but the 2016 version will probably be much smaller than the first one, since the first one reviewed all sorts of things (e.g. some old semi-maintained libraries) that probably won't have changed much by the end of 2016
2016-04-08T19:10:19Z fchurca: i supposed so
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2016-04-08T19:10:27Z fchurca: i am very much looking forward to it!
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2016-04-08T19:10:37Z eudoxia: thanks!
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2016-04-08T19:12:04Z fchurca: have you considered adding slimv and atom-slime in the IDEs section?
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2016-04-08T19:12:40Z eudoxia: yeah I tried atom-slime after the author emailed me and it will definitely go in the IDE section
2016-04-08T19:12:49Z eudoxia: slimv probably not since it's probably used by ~3 people
2016-04-08T19:13:13Z eudoxia: https://github.com/kovisoft/slimv last commit 2 days ago, I guess I'm wrong
2016-04-08T19:16:36Z fchurca: we are definitively a minority among cl users, i won't deny that
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2016-04-08T19:17:05Z fchurca: i stand proud in my heresy
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2016-04-08T19:18:53Z fchurca: but more heretics definitively wouldn't hurt
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2016-04-08T19:22:01Z eudoxia: yes
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2016-04-08T19:31:56Z fiddlerwoaroof: joshe: http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1329374
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2016-04-08T19:32:44Z fiddlerwoaroof: Although, I suppose that there's a difference between Power and ppc.
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2016-04-08T19:43:54Z fchurca: from what i've read, ppc is a subfamily of power, but maybe(tm) it's binary-compatible or at least source-compatible. i think the RHEL documentation uses ppc and ppc for power.
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2016-04-08T19:46:04Z fchurca: fiddlerwoaroof: ^
2016-04-08T19:47:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: Anyways, it sounds like Google's seriously consider switching to the power architecture.
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2016-04-08T19:52:39Z jasom: ppc is basically a temporary rebranding of Power
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2016-04-08T19:53:57Z akkad: ppc is now up to power8
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2016-04-08T19:54:08Z akkad: but there is prep and chrp
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2016-04-08T19:57:27Z jasom: IBM had the POWER ISA around 1990 "Performance Optimization With Enhanced RISC" (IBM has a long history of backronyms) and then when Apple wanted them to work with Motorola, they decided to make the POWER bus-compatible with the 88k, so that prototypes using the 88k could switch to POWER; they added "Performance Computing" to the end of the backronym, making POWER PC, and in 2006 they switched back to just
2016-04-08T19:57:29Z jasom: "POWER" for the name of the ISA
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2016-04-08T20:04:52Z dwchandler: "Performance Optimization With Advanced Heating"
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2016-04-08T20:28:23Z sjl: this is probably a stupid question, but when flexi-streams calls itself "flexible bivalent streams..." what does 'bivalent' mean?
2016-04-08T20:28:39Z sjl: grep'ing the hyperspec for 'bivalent' returns nothing
2016-04-08T20:29:06Z sjl: and according to the dictionary 'bivalent' is just a biology/chemistry term
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2016-04-08T20:30:51Z fchurca: i think it stands for both character-based and byte-based
2016-04-08T20:31:22Z fchurca: https://github.com/svenvc/s-sysdeps/blob/master/src/bivalent-streams.lisp#L24
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2016-04-08T20:31:44Z fchurca: bbl
2016-04-08T20:31:46Z sjl: > FLEXI-STREAMS implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary or bivalent streams and that can be used to read and write character data...
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2016-04-08T20:32:22Z sjl: hm, comment there defines it as "using bytes and characters (i.e. are bivalent)"
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2016-04-08T20:35:47Z Xach: yes, that's the customary meaning. a stream that handles either.
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2016-04-08T20:45:47Z fchurca: Anybody else stoked about the spacex launch?
2016-04-08T20:49:31Z dlowe: maybe you could ask about it in #lispcafe
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2016-04-08T20:52:06Z fchurca: Thanks for the pointer!
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2016-04-08T20:56:24Z DeadTrickster: what can I use for (micro)benchmarking? like run this 10000 times and give me nonoseconds per operation
2016-04-08T20:56:45Z dlowe: sbcl has a nice profiler
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2016-04-08T20:58:46Z DeadTrickster: isn't it more like "how many times (percents) this function is getting called?
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2016-04-08T20:59:22Z sjl: DeadTrickster: trivial-benchmark might be like what you're looking for, though you're probably not going to get nanosecond precision
2016-04-08T20:59:41Z dlowe: use the non-statistical profiler and profile (loop repeat 10000 do (mything))
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2016-04-08T21:03:18Z DeadTrickster: hm trivial-benchmark might be what I'm looking for, I'll try what dlowe proposes too though
2016-04-08T21:03:20Z White_Flame: dlowe: or just wrap it in (time (loop ...))
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2016-04-08T21:05:11Z DeadTrickster: results rounded to milliseconds :( maybe I can tweak it
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2016-04-08T21:05:20Z dlowe: do it more times :D
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2016-04-08T21:05:33Z dlowe: until you get the precision you want
2016-04-08T21:05:38Z DeadTrickster: yeah
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2016-04-08T21:06:31Z DeadTrickster: stupid question if I have median for 1000 runs then median for 1 run is just M1000/1000 right?
2016-04-08T21:06:41Z DeadTrickster: I should probably check my Math skills )
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2016-04-08T21:08:44Z DeadTrickster: I don't need it though
2016-04-08T21:08:47Z DeadTrickster: ouch (
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2016-04-08T21:48:06Z jasom: The median for 1 run is just the run
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2016-04-08T22:27:20Z xyh: is there something like (deep-equal (vector 1) (vector 1)) ?
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2016-04-08T22:34:43Z drewc: xyh: it depends on what you mean by "deep". OR: Why not CL:EQUALP?
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2016-04-08T22:35:15Z xyh: deep into vector will be ok for me
2016-04-08T22:35:28Z xyh: I will see equalp
2016-04-08T22:36:46Z drewc: clhs equalp
2016-04-08T22:36:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equalp.htm
2016-04-08T22:36:55Z xyh: thanks drewc
2016-04-08T22:37:01Z pjb: drewc: not equalp because: (equalp #("Hello") #("HELLO")) #| --> t |#
2016-04-08T22:37:26Z pjb: xyh: how deep?  You will most probably have to write your own equal.
2016-04-08T22:37:32Z drewc: pjb: agreed
2016-04-08T22:38:53Z xyh: equalp is ok for now, I am just testing my functions, and I know the values in vectors will be simple.
2016-04-08T22:39:35Z xyh: pjb: I remember you have a repo of lisp lib
2016-04-08T22:40:07Z xyh: pjb: share me the link again please ^-^
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2016-04-08T22:41:41Z sjl: well I figured out my streams issue.  apparently usocket:socket-stream will give you back a character stream even if you specify :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) in usocket:socket-accept
2016-04-08T22:41:54Z sjl: unless you ALSO specify the element type in socket-listen
2016-04-08T22:42:04Z sjl: BUT it only does this in CCL, not in SBCL
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2016-04-08T22:47:41Z pjb: xyh: https://git.framasoft.org/com-informatimago/com-informatimago
2016-04-08T22:48:03Z pjb: xyh: you can just (ql:quickload :com.informatimago)
2016-04-08T22:48:14Z xyh: thanks again
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2016-04-08T22:55:48Z dwchandler: sjl: interesting
2016-04-08T22:56:19Z sjl: I actually haven't tried just specifying it in socket-listen and leaving it out in socket-accept
2016-04-08T22:56:25Z sjl: I suspect that would probably work
2016-04-08T22:56:38Z sjl: but putting it in both places works in both ccl and sbcl
2016-04-08T22:58:29Z dwchandler: docu for socket-listen says: element-type is the default element type used for sockets created by socket-accept. character is the default when it's not explicitly provided.
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2016-04-08T22:59:04Z dwchandler: "default element type" sounds like what you have should work
2016-04-08T22:59:10Z dwchandler: s/have/had/
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2016-04-08T22:59:42Z dwchandler: and the docu for socket-accept agrees
2016-04-08T23:00:51Z sjl: I originally was specifying element-type only in socket-accept
2016-04-08T23:00:53Z sjl: > element-type is the element type used to construct the associated stream. If it's not specified, the element-type of socket (as used when it was created by the call to socket-listen) is used.
2016-04-08T23:01:06Z sjl: I assumed I didn't also need to put it in socket-listen
2016-04-08T23:01:11Z sjl: and on SBCL I don't
2016-04-08T23:01:13Z sjl: but for CCL I do
2016-04-08T23:02:04Z sjl: but yeah, what you said makes me guess that I can probably ONLY do it in socket-listen and it'll propagate down to the socket-accept
2016-04-08T23:02:37Z sjl: just seems weird tht socket-accept ignores the element-type I give it and uses the parent one
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2016-04-08T23:02:54Z sjl: or, well, weird that it's apparently implementation-dependent
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2016-04-08T23:03:48Z dwchandler: yeah, I think that's a bug
2016-04-08T23:07:04Z dwchandler: I have both ccl and sbcl on my non-work computer. I'll trye there.
2016-04-08T23:07:19Z dwchandler: sjl: what OS are you using?
2016-04-08T23:07:28Z sjl: os x
2016-04-08T23:07:49Z dwchandler: ok :)
2016-04-08T23:08:40Z sjl: I have a really simple test case, gonna add a bug on github
2016-04-08T23:10:14Z dwchandler: yeah
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2016-04-08T23:13:08Z sjl: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/issues/18
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2016-04-08T23:13:12Z sjl moves on with life
2016-04-08T23:13:18Z dwchandler: :)
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2016-04-08T23:15:41Z dwchandler: (declare (ignore element-type)) ;; openmcl streams are bi/multivalent
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2016-04-08T23:16:01Z dwchandler: Yeah, openmcl, I know
2016-04-08T23:16:05Z sjl: i uh
2016-04-08T23:16:21Z sjl: well (peek-byte ...that character tcp stream...) explodes with a stack trace
2016-04-08T23:16:35Z sjl: so whatever definition of bi/multivalent they're using...
2016-04-08T23:17:14Z dwchandler: huh
2016-04-08T23:17:56Z dwchandler: ;;;; Functions for CCL 1.11 (IPv6) only, see openmcl.lisp for rest of functions.
2016-04-08T23:18:03Z dwchandler: Yeah, so openmcl it is
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2016-04-08T23:19:12Z sjl: well, peek-byte is from flexi-streams
2016-04-08T23:22:04Z sjl: https://i.imgur.com/ksAqaWB.png is the whole big honkin' stack trace
2016-04-08T23:23:08Z sjl: yeah it's stream-read-byte that's failing https://i.imgur.com/qL1d00e.png
2016-04-08T23:23:34Z sjl: so ccl's streams aren't as bivalent as they think they are
2016-04-08T23:23:39Z sjl: or something
2016-04-08T23:23:40Z sjl: idk
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2016-04-08T23:26:09Z ukari: how to see sbcl's path in repl
2016-04-08T23:26:25Z dwchandler: sjl: yeah, I don't understand yet
2016-04-08T23:27:02Z dwchandler: in socket-listen: (make-stream-server-socket sock :element-type element-type)
2016-04-08T23:27:12Z dwchandler: in socket-accept: (make-stream-socket :socket sock :stream sock)
2016-04-08T23:27:48Z dwchandler: and socket-accept had that declare ignore with the bi/multivalent comment
2016-04-08T23:29:09Z sjl: dwchandler: socket-listen definitely passes along the element-type https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/clozure.lisp#L58
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2016-04-08T23:29:14Z sjl: which is good
2016-04-08T23:29:34Z dwchandler: that's IPv6, but yes
2016-04-08T23:29:39Z sjl: oh this is all ipv6 shit
2016-04-08T23:29:41Z sjl: yeah
2016-04-08T23:29:46Z dwchandler: openmcl.lisp
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2016-04-08T23:30:11Z sjl: yeah
2016-04-08T23:30:15Z sjl: I see where you're looking
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2016-04-08T23:30:28Z sjl: it just ignores element-type in -accept, but uses it in -listen
2016-04-08T23:30:42Z sjl: https://github.com/usocket/usocket/blob/master/backend/openmcl.lisp#L140
2016-04-08T23:30:58Z dwchandler: uses it to construct sock, then to make the stream server socket
2016-04-08T23:31:42Z sjl: yeah, but if you don't specify the element type in socket-listen but only give it in socket-accept, it just gets ignored
2016-04-08T23:31:48Z dwchandler has not done socket stuff in ccl
2016-04-08T23:32:01Z sjl: and you end up with a 'character stream, and stream-read-byte explodes
2016-04-08T23:32:15Z sjl: yeah I haven't poked much at ccl either
2016-04-08T23:32:31Z sjl: but I've been playing with https://github.com/vydd/sketch lately and it plays nicer with ccl
2016-04-08T23:32:43Z sjl: so I wanted to get my nrepl port working there too
2016-04-08T23:32:54Z sjl: so I had to shave this socket bug yak
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2016-04-08T23:58:49Z drmeister: What would you call a macro that defines a single dispatch function?   Like DEFGENERIC but the function you are defining could only dispatch on the first argument?
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2016-04-08T23:59:18Z drmeister sucks at naming things.
2016-04-09T00:00:24Z drmeister: Why?   I'm implementing a pidgin, single-dispatch CLOS at a point in the Clasp boostrapping when I don't have CLOS.
2016-04-09T00:01:29Z drmeister: I already have it implemented for ages - it's what I use to dispatch to C++ virtual functions.  I want to expose it to the bootstrapping Common Lisp because I need it during bootstrapping.
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2016-04-09T00:02:53Z drmeister: I was thinking define-single-dispatch-generic-function  - I may just use that.
2016-04-09T00:03:46Z sjl: DEFSTOREBRAND
2016-04-09T00:03:51Z sjl: "not quite generic"
2016-04-09T00:04:01Z Zhivago: Why not just defgeneric, and optimize the single dispatch case?
2016-04-09T00:04:02Z aeth: define-single-dispatch?
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2016-04-09T00:06:29Z drmeister: All good suggestions - perhaps defgeneric is a good idea - and then hew to the semantics of CLOS.  So when CLOS is installed everything works the same.
2016-04-09T00:06:31Z drmeister: Hmmm
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2016-04-09T00:07:07Z drmeister: "hew" is not the word I was looking for.
2016-04-09T00:07:25Z dwchandler: cleave?
2016-04-09T00:08:06Z drmeister: Cleave is better.  I was thinking more like "steer towards".
2016-04-09T00:10:56Z drmeister: Thank you for those suggestions.
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2016-04-09T01:51:45Z Fare: Is there any eye candy or ear candy I could use to demo building Lisp applications with bazel. Requirement: it has to link to at least one C library (ideally, one that will be easy for me to also build with bazel).
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2016-04-09T02:14:32Z fuyuki: hi
2016-04-09T02:15:13Z fuyuki: olleh
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2016-04-09T02:26:22Z fuyuki: are people actuall yhere
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2016-04-09T02:26:43Z fuyuki: can someone please help me
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2016-04-09T02:34:02Z pyericz: I'm new to lisp, wish I can help
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2016-04-09T02:35:57Z Xach: I can help.
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2016-04-09T03:49:16Z pillton: Xach: What is a valid value for the dist-version argument in quicklisp-quickstart:install?
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2016-04-09T03:50:58Z pillton: I tried "2016-03-08" and the installer fails with a message saying that http://beta.quicklisp.org/dist/2016-03-18/distinfo.txt returns a status of 403 (Forbidden).
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2016-04-09T11:56:25Z Xach: pillton: i have a pull request to fix that. bug on my end.
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2016-04-09T12:19:08Z dwchandler: good morning!
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2016-04-09T12:26:10Z Jonsky: good evening
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2016-04-09T12:57:57Z pyericz: good evening :D
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2016-04-09T14:06:54Z DeadTrickster: trivial-benchmark turned out to be useless
2016-04-09T14:06:55Z DeadTrickster: (
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2016-04-09T14:15:40Z JuanDaugherty: trivial usually a warning sign, there are exceptions such as trivial ldap, the thing after trivial needs to be appropriate for that.
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2016-04-09T14:17:03Z JuanDaugherty: if benchmark means time, running room or something though, that should have been apropos
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2016-04-09T14:22:02Z papachan: good morning
2016-04-09T14:22:13Z papachan: which library is good to parse json?
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2016-04-09T14:29:41Z JuanDaugherty: anyone that works I should think, json is super simple
2016-04-09T14:30:28Z JuanDaugherty: you could prolly make a nice one in a few hours too, so should be several
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2016-04-09T14:31:48Z DeadTrickster: well trivial could mean something like 'no bells and whistles'
2016-04-09T14:31:57Z DeadTrickster: in this case it's just wrong
2016-04-09T14:32:02Z DeadTrickster: the concept behind it
2016-04-09T14:32:23Z JuanDaugherty: papachan, searching json @ cliki confirmed
2016-04-09T14:32:39Z vydd: papachan: http://eudoxia.me/article/common-lisp-sotu-2015#file-formats mentions yason and jonathan
2016-04-09T14:33:15Z papachan: oh nice
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2016-04-09T14:33:49Z JuanDaugherty: DeadTrickster, trivial usually means a minimalist implementation and can mean something like just a demo or joke like haskell acme but usually the former
2016-04-09T14:34:21Z DeadTrickster: okay
2016-04-09T14:35:16Z JuanDaugherty: but a lack of ambition and a lack of conscientiousness in actual doing would tend to go together
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2016-04-09T16:38:08Z fiddlerwoaroof: is it possible to increase SBCL's heap size?
2016-04-09T16:38:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: I'm experimenting with image processing and keep getting heap errors.
2016-04-09T16:39:38Z Bike: --dynamic-space-size, i think
2016-04-09T16:39:52Z fiddlerwoaroof: Can it be done at runtime?
2016-04-09T16:41:58Z xyh: fiddlerwoaroof: maybe try ccl (or other CLs), and see if it gets the same heap errors ?
2016-04-09T16:44:24Z Bike: fiddlerwoaroof: i think that the way sbcl works, no, but i'm not 100% on that
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2016-04-09T16:45:28Z flip214: How can I get a copier function for CLOS objects?
2016-04-09T16:45:51Z Bike: there's nothing built in, because there's no obvious generic semantics for copying, and it doesn't come up much
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2016-04-09T16:49:46Z flip214: thank you!
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2016-04-09T18:36:33Z iskander: hi everyone
2016-04-09T18:37:05Z iskander: i need a lisp library to send HTTP requests and process HTTP responses
2016-04-09T18:37:15Z iskander: what are my options ?
2016-04-09T18:37:39Z mood: iskander: The common choice is Drakma
2016-04-09T18:39:21Z iskander: thank you, that's what i need
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2016-04-09T20:26:18Z abbe: Hi!
2016-04-09T20:27:19Z abbe: Is there a documentation of SWANK protocol somewhere for someone implementing a swank server ? Or, source code is the best documentation ?
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2016-04-09T21:31:47Z zdm: could someone explain whats going on with this or point to some documentation that explains this?: http://paste.lisp.org/display/312985
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2016-04-09T21:35:23Z zdm: there must be some weird escaping or something that does this since (type-of '\)) is requiring two closing parenthesis
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2016-04-09T21:35:56Z edgar-rft: zdm: The backslash escapes the following character, what in this case is the #\Newline character, the two vertical bars are the symbol |<newline>|
2016-04-09T21:35:59Z jason_m: zdm: I think the \ is introducing an escape in emacs, so what you are seeing is a newline
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2016-04-09T21:36:24Z prxq: edgar-rft has it
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2016-04-09T21:36:38Z zdm: oh, thanks edgar-rft
2016-04-09T21:37:37Z prxq: you can also do '\<spacebar><enter> and compare
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2016-04-09T21:48:06Z edgar-rft: ...found the backslash in CLHS: <http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_adf.htm>
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2016-04-09T21:49:48Z zdm: ah, i looked under the non-alphabetic list and didnt see \, reason why i asked here.
2016-04-09T21:50:25Z edgar-rft: it took more than 10 minutes until I found it under "Syntax"
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2016-04-09T21:55:15Z Bike: clhs \
2016-04-09T21:55:15Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for \.
2016-04-09T21:55:19Z Bike: darn.
2016-04-09T21:56:29Z edgar-rft: ask specbot again in ten minutes... :-)
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2016-04-09T22:06:18Z fiddlerwoaroof: Is there a way to change the displacement of a displaced array?
2016-04-09T22:07:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: Hmm, adjust-array might do the tric
2016-04-09T22:07:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: s/$/k/
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2016-04-09T22:28:23Z axion: sigh, ASDF-SYSTEM-CONNECTIONS is horrible when it finds its way into QL software
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2016-04-09T22:34:13Z fiddlerwoaroof: ?
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2016-04-09T22:34:55Z axion: cl-graph checks to see if cl-variates is already loaded down the dependency tree, and if so loads a system that causes name conflicts
2016-04-09T22:35:06Z axion: it uses obsolete asdf technology :/
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2016-04-09T22:35:50Z fiddlerwoaroof: ah
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2016-04-09T22:37:01Z fiddlerwoaroof: This probably isn't surprising, but switching from make-array to adjust-array resulted in a 10x speedup
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2016-04-09T22:40:25Z fiddlerwoaroof: http://paste.lisp.org/+6PIS
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2016-04-09T22:42:11Z axion: interesting
2016-04-09T22:42:19Z axion: though looks like less than 9x :)
2016-04-09T22:44:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: I guess so, I tend to be a bit sloppy with numbers :)
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2016-04-09T22:46:47Z axion: i also think 1000 is kind of small and subject to noise
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2016-04-09T22:54:40Z arademaker: Hi all, I am having trouble to avoid one extra (progn ...) in my macro expansion.
2016-04-09T22:54:44Z arademaker: See https://gist.github.com/arademaker/50aa74e490bf2160547cb212c9a1bf05
2016-04-09T22:55:18Z arademaker: The two alternatives produce the same output, but both with an extra (progn ...)
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2016-04-09T22:57:17Z fiddlerwoaroof: axion: while, with the original usecase (image processing), it makes a huge difference
2016-04-09T22:57:30Z Bike: arademaker: doesn't seem like a problem to me
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2016-04-09T22:58:54Z Bike: arademaker: if you really want it gone, i'd special case zero files (progn) and then start your reduce or whatever with a with-open-file form
2016-04-09T22:59:17Z arademaker: hi Bike, yes, it will work, but this extra progn is not really necessary, right?
2016-04-09T22:59:25Z Bike: it is not necessary, but it's also harmless
2016-04-09T23:00:40Z arademaker: ops! I see your idea, thanks Bike
2016-04-09T23:00:56Z Bike: or you could have like (defmacro with-open-files (args &body body) (case (length args) ((0) `(progn ,@body)) ((1) `(with-open-file ,(first args) ,@body)) (t `(with-open-file ,(first args) (with-open-files ,(rest args) ,@body)))))
2016-04-09T23:04:07Z arademaker: hum, that doesn't work really. I am cheking
2016-04-09T23:05:55Z Bike: it works4me
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2016-04-09T23:07:15Z arademaker: I got a (progn ...) again
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2016-04-09T23:07:38Z Bike: From the same input?
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2016-04-09T23:08:31Z arademaker: yes
2016-04-09T23:08:34Z arademaker: (with-open-file (in filename-in :direction :input)
2016-04-09T23:08:34Z arademaker:   (with-open-file (out filename-out :direction :ouput :if-exists
2016-04-09T23:08:34Z arademaker: 		   :supersede)
2016-04-09T23:08:37Z arademaker:     (with-open-file (log filename-log :direction :ouput :if-exists
2016-04-09T23:08:40Z arademaker: 			 :append)
2016-04-09T23:08:41Z arademaker:       (progn (format out "ads") (format out "ads")))))
2016-04-09T23:08:44Z arademaker: sorry
2016-04-09T23:09:13Z Bike: are you sure you actually input my definition, and exactly? because i don't get that, and I don't see how it would be possible to get that.
2016-04-09T23:09:39Z Bike: but, really. it's not a big deal. leaving a progn there is fine. the semantics are exactly the same.
2016-04-09T23:09:50Z arademaker: https://gist.github.com/arademaker/50aa74e490bf2160547cb212c9a1bf05
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2016-04-09T23:10:47Z arademaker: I know, I am using the opportunity to really explore the best possible solution.
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2016-04-09T23:11:07Z Bike: you "get" that output how exactly? because that's not output from macroexpand or macroexpand-1.
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2016-04-09T23:13:47Z arademaker: C-c M-e see http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2016/02/slime-macrostep.html
2016-04-09T23:14:05Z arademaker: using macroexpand-1 twice I got the same result
2016-04-09T23:15:16Z Bike: (macroexpand-1 (macroexpand-1 '(with-open-files-3 ...))) definitely doesn't get that. the first expansion results in a with-open-file form, and the second will expand that.
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2016-04-09T23:17:43Z arademaker: in sbcl : (WITH-OPEN-STREAM
2016-04-09T23:17:43Z arademaker:     (OUT (OPEN FILENAME-OUT :DIRECTION :OUPUT :IF-EXISTS :SUPERSEDE))
2016-04-09T23:17:44Z arademaker:   (WITH-OPEN-FILE (LOG FILENAME-LOG :DIRECTION :OUPUT :IF-EXISTS :APPEND)
2016-04-09T23:17:44Z arademaker:     (WITH-OPEN-FILE (IN FILENAME-IN :DIRECTION :INPUT)
2016-04-09T23:17:46Z arademaker:       (PROGN (FORMAT OUT "ads") (FORMAT OUT "ads")))))
2016-04-09T23:18:08Z arademaker: ops! sorry again for these lines
2016-04-09T23:18:47Z Bike: I think you must have pasted my definition incorrectly. There's no way the inner with-open-files should be expanded.
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2016-04-09T23:20:37Z Bike: oh, i see. you didn't change my definition.
2016-04-09T23:20:46Z Bike: the inner recursive with-open-files ends up as one of yours instead of mine
2016-04-09T23:21:20Z arademaker: Ohh.. you are right
2016-04-09T23:21:24Z arademaker: sorry, my mistake
2016-04-09T23:22:06Z Bike: by the way, if you're on sbcl and you expand that with-open-stream, there will be a redundant progn in the expansion.
2016-04-09T23:23:12Z arademaker: what? I didn't get this last point.
2016-04-09T23:24:28Z Bike: it'll expand to (let ... (unwind-protect ... (multiple-value-prog1 (progn (with-open-files ...)) ...) ...)). the progn only has one form in it.
2016-04-09T23:24:53Z arademaker: yes, now I saw.
2016-04-09T23:25:07Z arademaker: back to your point right? (progn ...) is harmless
2016-04-09T23:25:11Z Bike: yes.
2016-04-09T23:26:06Z arademaker: BTW, stupid question. How to easly copy-and-paste removing the line breaks?
2016-04-09T23:26:34Z Bike: dunno. people just link pastes usually.
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2016-04-09T23:39:27Z pjb: arademaker: /topic gives the url to the prefered web paste service.
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2016-04-09T23:47:29Z arademak`: pjb: thanks
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2016-04-10T01:33:38Z axion: what is a good way to create a list of serial numbers other than loop/collect?
2016-04-10T01:34:32Z jurov: axion: i used gensym for something similar
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2016-04-10T01:35:01Z jurov: *vaguely similar
2016-04-10T01:35:07Z axion: hmm
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2016-04-10T01:36:07Z Bike: if you want a list of sequential numbers loop/collect is probably simplest
2016-04-10T01:37:05Z axion: ok.
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2016-04-10T01:40:19Z fiddlerwoaroof: dotimes could also help.
2016-04-10T01:40:49Z fiddlerwoaroof: But it'd be a bit more complicated
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2016-04-10T01:46:24Z cedric_: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-04-10T01:46:55Z Cxcf: Hey all.
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2016-04-10T02:57:05Z leo_song: It seems Quicklisp is down?
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2016-04-10T03:01:46Z zdm: leo_song: seems to be up
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2016-04-10T03:18:25Z axion: how can i sort a list of 2-element lists (integers)?
2016-04-10T03:19:01Z axion: '((3 2) (1 2) (1 5)) => ((1 2) (1 5) (3 2))
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2016-04-10T03:23:03Z Bike: based on what, lexicographic order?
2016-04-10T03:23:29Z axion: sequentially for both 1st and second element
2016-04-10T03:24:21Z Bike: that sounds lexicographic. your answer is, you throw that list at cl:sort, and give it :test #'lex<. lex< being easy to write.
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2016-04-10T03:24:58Z axion: hmm, ok.
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2016-04-10T04:29:00Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-04-10T04:39:05Z beach: Does QL:SYSTEM-APROPOS give information also about systems that have not been installed, or just about systems that have been installed?
2016-04-10T04:40:51Z Bike: it includes systems that have not been installed
2016-04-10T04:42:15Z beach: Hmm, OK.  Thanks.
2016-04-10T04:42:53Z beach: I thought Xach told me he included ACCLIMATION in Quicklisp, but I don't see it when I do a system-apropos.
2016-04-10T04:43:52Z Bike: it's in the metadata online...
2016-04-10T04:44:14Z beach: I don't know what that means. :(
2016-04-10T04:44:39Z Bike: it means it will show up if you run (ql:update-client), or did for me, anyway.
2016-04-10T04:44:54Z beach: I thought I did that.
2016-04-10T04:45:00Z beach: Oh, well.
2016-04-10T04:45:02Z Bike: how about (ql:update-all-dists)?
2016-04-10T04:45:22Z beach: That's another thing I am wondering about.
2016-04-10T04:45:38Z Bike: and by the metadata i meant that here it is: https://github.com/quicklisp/quicklisp-projects/tree/master/projects/acclimation I don't understand how quicklisp works, particularly, but everything you can install has metadata in this github project, as far as I know.
2016-04-10T04:45:45Z beach: I don't know what it's doing, so I don't understand how it would affect a system that is not installed.
2016-04-10T04:46:26Z Bike: a "dist" is a list of the software that's available. updating a dist should get the new list of what is available from the great online.
2016-04-10T04:46:46Z Bike: dunno how a client update factors in, tho.
2016-04-10T04:47:59Z beach: I should encourage Xach to write some documentation that explains the concepts of Quicklisp and that explains what the various functions do with respect to those concepts.
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2016-04-10T04:48:46Z beach: Bike: Thanks for your help.
2016-04-10T04:48:56Z Bike: so can you see it now?
2016-04-10T04:49:24Z beach: I haven't tried to update the dists yet.  Let me try that...
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2016-04-10T04:50:15Z beach: Yes, I can.  Thanks.
2016-04-10T04:50:20Z Bike: sweet
2016-04-10T04:50:22Z beach: That's mysterious to me.
2016-04-10T04:50:31Z Bike: eh...
2016-04-10T04:50:42Z beach: Because I was guessing that update-all-dists updated all dists.
2016-04-10T04:50:47Z Bike: it does.
2016-04-10T04:51:11Z beach: But it also makes system-apropos do something different.
2016-04-10T04:51:39Z Bike: ok well what it is, i think, is that locally you have a "dist", which is a collection of all the metadata for all systems you can install
2016-04-10T04:51:49Z Bike: system-apropos looks through that, without touching the internet.
2016-04-10T04:52:09Z Bike: update-dist gets a new dist, the new data about what is available, from the internet.
2016-04-10T04:52:10Z beach: Hence the reason I want to encourage Xach to explain the terminology in some documenation.
2016-04-10T04:52:15Z beach: documentation.
2016-04-10T04:52:42Z Bike: i think he mentioned that docs is the big priority for getting it out of... beta? whatever version it's in
2016-04-10T04:54:01Z beach: Thanks again for your help.
2016-04-10T04:54:10Z Bike: no problem
2016-04-10T04:59:32Z beach should update his Paypal information so that he can contribute to Quicklisp more easily.
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2016-04-10T06:13:17Z pillton: minion: memo for Xach: Thanks.
2016-04-10T06:13:17Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-04-10T06:42:32Z zdm: Trying to clean this up: https://pastee.org/kvmry - Do you guys use label a lot? I was thinking I rather just create global functions instead. labels seems ugly to me when you do more than one function.
2016-04-10T06:43:16Z zdm: labels i mean
2016-04-10T06:43:23Z pillton: I use labels all of the time.
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2016-04-10T06:48:01Z beach: zdm: If you are going to clean it up, then use 1+ and 1- rather than general + and 1 with constant 1.
2016-04-10T06:49:50Z beach: But there is no problem with LABELS.
2016-04-10T06:51:10Z zdm: Oh, didnt know i could do 1+ and 1-, thanks
2016-04-10T06:52:27Z beach: I personally would not use COND when an IF without PROGN will do, but that's not a big deal.
2016-04-10T06:53:10Z pillton: zdm: I have no issue with your use of labels/flet. Having said that, a common pattern for helper functions defined in the global environment is one of %my-function or %my-function/helper.
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2016-04-10T06:58:50Z zdm: So, i have plot-points, should i name the function that helps it 'my-plot-points/helper'?
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2016-04-10T06:59:57Z pillton: Substitute "helper" with something which describes how it is helping.
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2016-04-10T07:01:14Z zdm: 'my-plot-points/plot-string' i suppose
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2016-04-10T07:02:56Z pillton: Sounds good. SLIME has good support for long names. You can type m-p-p <TAB> and it will expand to my-plot-points/plot-string.
2016-04-10T07:04:15Z zdm: oh wow, thats cool
2016-04-10T07:07:58Z zdm: And what if my-plot-points/plot-string has a helper? plot-string/some-helper-name ?
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2016-04-10T07:09:03Z pillton: That is up to you. Just think of yourself 6 months from now. What would a crankier version of yourself like to see?
2016-04-10T07:10:20Z pillton: I'd laugh if it were labels/flet. :)
2016-04-10T07:10:57Z zdm: With this small program, it's obvious what relationships functions have to each other.
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2016-04-10T07:21:10Z zdm: Well, I think it looks a bit better https://pastee.org/q7mb6 but there is more Lisp to learn. Thanks pillton and beach
2016-04-10T07:21:52Z beach: zdm: Anytime!
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2016-04-10T07:23:25Z pillton: zdm: My pleasure.
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2016-04-10T07:47:27Z zRecursive: 'sleep is busy waiting, isnot it ?
2016-04-10T07:50:42Z zdm: wow, i was really making that generate function more complicated than it needed to be.... https://pastee.org/2yqrg
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2016-04-10T07:51:45Z Bike: heh. labels question just magically disappears.
2016-04-10T07:52:22Z beach: zdm: Use three semicolons for top-level comments.
2016-04-10T07:53:16Z zdm: oh okay
2016-04-10T07:53:46Z zRecursive: clhs sleep
2016-04-10T07:53:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm
2016-04-10T07:53:57Z beach: clhs minusp
2016-04-10T07:53:57Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_minusp.htm
2016-04-10T07:54:12Z beach: zdm: Instead of doing (< n 0) do (minusp n).
2016-04-10T07:54:54Z beach: zdm: Instead of (format t "Error!") I recommend you call ERROR.
2016-04-10T07:56:36Z zdm: ah, i see http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_error.htm
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2016-04-10T08:17:06Z hebicks: ahh it's a wonderful day :)
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2016-04-10T08:20:55Z edgar-rft: in what way?
2016-04-10T08:23:13Z zdm: Programming in Lisp makes any day wonderful ;)
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2016-04-10T08:33:11Z beach: edgar-rft: I think that's a bot.  It happens regularly, always the same phrase.
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2016-04-10T08:34:11Z edgar-rft: beach: that's exactly what I suspected. It's the same text everywhere, not only here.
2016-04-10T08:34:22Z beach: I can imagine.
2016-04-10T08:34:28Z DeadTrickster: sbcl never stops amazing me
2016-04-10T08:34:29Z DeadTrickster: really
2016-04-10T08:34:42Z DeadTrickster: wonderful piece of technology
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2016-04-10T14:41:29Z oGMo: hrm (ql:quickload :cffi-toolchain) errors for me on the latest QL release
2016-04-10T14:42:03Z oGMo: something about uiop .. i don't use that directly, but gets pulled in by static-vectors ;/
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2016-04-10T15:01:11Z oGMo: ...requires a newer asdf than is distributed, heh
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2016-04-10T20:54:30Z mood: The fact that "Affiliation" is required on the ELS registration form confuses me a little
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2016-04-10T21:36:45Z mood: Alright. I'm going to ELS!
2016-04-10T21:39:43Z JuanDaugherty: did you self affiliate?
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2016-04-10T21:40:04Z mood: I put my university in
2016-04-10T21:40:13Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2016-04-10T21:40:56Z mood: I mean, not that it has anything to do with my going to ELS...
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2016-04-10T22:27:37Z Cxcf: when programming in lisp, how common is to use defvar? If my program is build on functions, why wouldn't I just Let everything?
2016-04-10T22:28:38Z Cxcf: In all my functions, I feel like I'm just (let)ing the variables I need and I'm not sure if that's proper practice
2016-04-10T22:29:28Z mood: Cxcf: That is, generally, proper practice. defvar (and defparameter) is for global variables and similar things
2016-04-10T22:33:06Z Cxcf: ok, it feels wrong coming from a Java background
2016-04-10T22:33:17Z Cxcf: thanks mood
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2016-04-10T22:36:23Z Bike: let is pretty similar to the normal way scoping works in java etc. moreso than defvar/parameter is.
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2016-04-10T22:43:33Z pjb: Cxcf: you would use defvar almost never.  About the only place where I use defvar, is for debugging, where I store the root object of the application in a global variable so I can easily access it in the debugger. (defvar *root* nil) (defun main () (let ((*root* (make-instance 'application-root))) (run-application *root*)))
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2016-04-10T22:52:36Z aeth: afaik, defvar is mostly for the repl, which Java doesn't have (at least not built-in)
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2016-04-10T22:53:37Z _rpg: DEFVAR is commonly used in all lisps, including emacs-lisp, for customizable variables.  Its semantics were designed for that purpose.
2016-04-10T22:54:23Z _rpg: E.g., (DEFVAR *do-default-behavior* T) which can be overridden by the user before loading the system in question.
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2016-04-10T22:55:03Z _rpg: Doesn't actually dovetail nicely with the way packages work.... Forces you to put config variables in CL-USER and leads to spurious redefinition warnings.
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2016-04-10T22:56:00Z aeth: You could put it in a class and then you only have to deal with one.
2016-04-10T22:56:51Z aeth: Not sure if it would work, but a make-instance in a defvar would persist the class, right? Since defvar only assigns it if it doesn't already exist, right?
2016-04-10T22:57:02Z _rpg: DEFVAR is also used for special variables for configuration (e.g., *PPRINT-DISPATCH-TABLE*)
2016-04-10T22:57:26Z _rpg: Particularly if you want them to default to unbound.
2016-04-10T23:00:21Z _rpg: MAKE-INSTANCE in DEFVARs have somewhat icky semantics.
2016-04-10T23:00:52Z _rpg: If you have enough configuration parameters to fill an object, you're probably better off having a configuration file and a configuration file reader.
2016-04-10T23:01:48Z aeth: Definitely. That reminds me, I need to write one for my game engine before the spring Lisp game jam.
2016-04-10T23:01:57Z aeth: Games definitely have a big pile of state, including configuration files.
2016-04-10T23:02:15Z _rpg: You should be able to find one and not have to write it yourself.
2016-04-10T23:03:12Z aeth: _rpg: It's a handful of lines, not worth importing. It's just reading a file with read-eval off and assigning semantics to the parsed-for-free s-expressions.
2016-04-10T23:03:18Z aeth: 6 or so lines for the read
2016-04-10T23:05:04Z aeth: _rpg: http://paste.lisp.org/+6PLS
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2016-04-10T23:09:05Z aeth: So when I say I need to write this configuration library, I mean I need to assign game-related sematics to s-expression files, like key bindings.
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2016-04-10T23:39:13Z Cxcf: For those of you who work in SLIME, should I pay attention to the STYLE-WARNINGS?
2016-04-10T23:40:26Z Bike: when it starts? they're no big
2016-04-10T23:40:37Z Cxcf: After I edit a function, I C-x C-e to load it into slime, and it puts out re-defining warnings. Is that workflow reasonable?
2016-04-10T23:40:46Z Bike: oh. yeah, sure, that's normal.
2016-04-10T23:40:46Z mood: Cxcf: That depends. Style warnings about redefining a function when that's exactly what you wanted to do is perfectly fine.
2016-04-10T23:41:19Z Cxcf: mood: that makes sense.
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2016-04-11T00:22:27Z garietyxxx: Anyone here know how to disable verbose mesages in Emacs' slime-mode?
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2016-04-11T00:24:24Z warweasle: garietyxxx: On start up?
2016-04-11T00:24:47Z Xach: garietyxxx: what kind of verbose messages?
2016-04-11T00:24:47Z minion: Xach, memo from pillton: Thanks.
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2016-04-11T00:34:36Z garietyxxx: Xach: When C-c C-k and compiles, it displays compile info about how long it took to compile and such
2016-04-11T00:34:42Z garietyxxx: way too verbose for my taste
2016-04-11T00:36:45Z Xach: I don't know how to change that, sorry.
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2016-04-11T00:40:44Z Bike: oh, that's not slime, actually, that's just what compile-file does. try setting *compile-verbose* to nil.
2016-04-11T00:40:51Z Bike: ...though it might be weird with threads.
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2016-04-11T00:42:09Z garietyxxx: Bike: emacs does it?
2016-04-11T00:42:20Z Bike: no, the lisp implementation does it.
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2016-04-11T00:42:39Z garietyxxx: Bike: oh
2016-04-11T00:43:18Z Bike: just put, like, (setf *compile-verbose* nil) in your .implementationrc, restart some stuff, it might work.
2016-04-11T00:43:23Z Bike: maybe *compile-print* too.
2016-04-11T00:45:06Z garietyxxx: Bike: stupid question. what is implementationrc
2016-04-11T00:45:27Z garietyxxx: it'sSBCL
2016-04-11T00:45:54Z Bike: the rc file for your lisp implementation, which... ok, it's .sbclrc then. edit or make a file named ".sbclrc" in your home directory, and anything in it will be evaluated by sbcl when it starts up.
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2016-04-11T00:46:56Z garietyxxx: Bike: thanks
2016-04-11T00:49:35Z garietyxxx: damn didn't work. maybe I'll just switch implementations for the sake of SLIME. What would you recommend for simplicity?
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2016-04-11T00:51:03Z Bike: ccl should be fine. it's weird that that didn't work, though.
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2016-04-11T00:52:44Z garietyxxx: Bike: I dropped them in below (load quicklisp-init), restarted emacs, and slime still saying the same stuff
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2016-04-11T00:52:59Z Bike: yes, i checked myself and see the same. i'm just not sure why that is so.
2016-04-11T00:54:15Z Bike: ah. it's because swank:compile-file-for-emacs specifically sets compile-verbose to t. well, great.
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2016-04-11T00:57:50Z Bike: this appears to be unconfigurable. i wonder why it is like this. oh well.
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2016-04-11T01:00:34Z jsgrant: Swank takes for "-1 forever" on this low-end "ultraportable" box. An Atom processor, and only 2 gb of swap. :^P
2016-04-11T01:00:44Z jsgrant: Well mem, 5 of Swap.*
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2016-04-11T01:02:14Z jsgrant: Once it starts, it's fine, but it'll take a minute or two to get stumpwm via it, my sesion, usable at startup. Is there a way to log what's going on, somewhere, that I'm just missing?
2016-04-11T01:02:37Z xristos: started writing CL consistently again after a couple of years of absence, it's amazing how far SBCL has progressed (sb-concurrency, arm64, SSE/VOPs, dynamic assembler?!?)
2016-04-11T01:03:43Z jsgrant: xristos: ++ Nicest implementation, I've had the pleasure to use thusfar (not played with any proprietary stuff though yet).
2016-04-11T01:04:26Z jsgrant still wants to play with SICL, but has been far too busy the past few months.
2016-04-11T01:05:08Z xristos: my memories of lispworks/allegro stuff point to unimpressive CL-parts, buts lots of extras (that were useless to me)
2016-04-11T01:05:41Z xristos: since both are still in business i guess somebody finds them useful
2016-04-11T01:06:28Z xristos: I remember lispworks being 10 times slower than SBCL for an interpreter I wrote in 2007
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2016-04-11T01:06:49Z jsgrant: I assume a lot of the draw, from what I've seen, is the support contact I assume them to have.
2016-04-11T01:06:52Z xristos: these days it's probably even worse
2016-04-11T01:08:44Z jsgrant kinda wants to play with Mocl, but also doesn't really want to have to dip into Android generally. (Wish that there were more active competition in the FOSS phone world.)
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2016-04-11T02:15:28Z warweasle: fla;sdkfj
2016-04-11T02:15:34Z warweasle: whoops
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2016-04-11T02:46:31Z Quadresce: is anyone aware of issues that have arisen with LispWorks and CFFI?
2016-04-11T02:47:14Z Quadresce: I am having issues. Looks like one other person ran into issues and talked about it in channel, but no real resolution came up.
2016-04-11T02:47:41Z Zhivago: Perhaps there is a mailing list?
2016-04-11T02:48:08Z Quadresce: It doesn't seem to be a LW-specific issue, but some weird combination of ASDF+CFFI version issues, maybe.
2016-04-11T02:48:33Z Quadresce: **++++ Error in ASDF/BUNDLE:BUNDLE-PATHNAME-TYPE:
2016-04-11T02:48:33Z Quadresce:   Illegal car (OS-UNIX-P) in compound form ((OS-UNIX-P) "o").
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2016-04-11T02:49:25Z Bike: oh yeah, that shit! it's because your asdf doesn't have... uh... os-case or something
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2016-04-11T02:49:40Z Bike: os-cond.
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2016-04-11T02:50:21Z Bike: try upgrading asdf.
2016-04-11T02:51:04Z Quadresce: whats the usual way to do that? do I replace whatever junk LW installed somewhere?
2016-04-11T02:52:58Z Bike: you can download an asdf/lisp and load that instead of using require like usual.
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2016-04-11T03:03:18Z Quadresce: if I (load "asdf.lisp") before I load quicklisp in my init I get a stack overflow
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2016-04-11T03:16:35Z Quadresce: I guess LOADing isn't a good thing to do
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2016-04-11T03:55:41Z Bike: that's bizarre.
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2016-04-11T04:06:19Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-04-11T04:08:51Z loke: Hello Beach!
2016-04-11T04:09:32Z loke: Speaking of beaches, I was out biking last week: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+EliasMartenson/posts/K1Pki5tvFtz
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2016-04-11T04:44:48Z drmeister: Hey everybody
2016-04-11T04:45:17Z adlai: good morning #lisp
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2016-04-11T04:47:36Z drmeister: I'm implementing a mini-clos, with single-dispatch (on class of first required argument, no eql specializers, maybe I'll have :before, :after, :around methods)
2016-04-11T04:47:50Z adlai: have you seen sheeple
2016-04-11T04:47:59Z drmeister: Sheeple?
2016-04-11T04:48:03Z adlai: they're everywhere!
2016-04-11T04:48:15Z adlai: http://github.com/zkat/sheeple
2016-04-11T04:48:22Z Zhivago: It's the sneeple you need to watch out for.
2016-04-11T04:48:40Z aeth: relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1013/
2016-04-11T04:49:06Z drmeister: Not enough buzzwords
2016-04-11T04:49:12Z adlai: rats
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2016-04-11T04:49:37Z adlai should probably just go back to maintaining sheeple full-time, live off the fleece
2016-04-11T04:50:11Z drmeister: adlai: It runs on CLOS?
2016-04-11T04:50:22Z drmeister: 'cause I don't have CLOS at this point.
2016-04-11T04:51:09Z adlai: yeah i see your problem, but it's too damn late. ah well.
2016-04-11T04:51:26Z drmeister: Anyway, I've got it largely figured out.   I spent the last two days poring  over AMOP.
2016-04-11T04:51:36Z adlai: tis an excellent book
2016-04-11T04:51:50Z adlai: one of my favorite programmers hates lisp, but likes clos, because of amop.
2016-04-11T04:52:26Z drmeister: Yes.
2016-04-11T04:53:00Z aeth: who?
2016-04-11T04:53:27Z beach: Hello drmeister
2016-04-11T04:53:31Z drmeister: Hi beach
2016-04-11T04:53:52Z adlai: aeth: my cousin, slings c++ for a living
2016-04-11T04:53:58Z adlai: (and likes it!)
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2016-04-11T04:56:47Z Zhivago: With suitable restraint, C++ can be reasonable.
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2016-04-11T05:00:53Z drmeister: beach: Stack allocated closures got me absolutely nothing in terms of speed improvement.
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2016-04-11T05:01:41Z Zhivago: Not very surprising, since those sufficiently emphemeral are probably elided by other optimizations.
2016-04-11T05:02:01Z drmeister: Zhivago: They won't be elided in this case.
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2016-04-11T05:04:05Z drmeister: So I'm rewriting the bclasp compiler to have an AST and a HIR like Cleavir so that I can do more intelligent things wrt putting variables on the stack vs the heap.
2016-04-11T05:05:21Z drmeister: That requires some way to represent AST nodes and HIR nodes - so I got DEFSTRUCT working properly in my minimal CL.
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2016-04-11T05:06:56Z drmeister: Today I've been extending my single-dispatch-generic-function classes that I use to expose C++ methods to CL so that I can have a kind of mini-CLOS so I can write methods that dispatch on one required argument.
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2016-04-11T05:08:20Z drmeister: That should give me enough functionality so that I can write the AST generator and code-generator without going nuts writing dispatching code.
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2016-04-11T05:09:35Z drmeister: I've been looking at CLOS asking myself what can I incorporate easily that would be useful.
2016-04-11T05:09:44Z drmeister: Mixins were pretty easy.
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2016-04-11T05:10:56Z drmeister: I'm going to use DEFSTRUCT to define class-like entities that inherit from one class (:include xxx) but allow any number of mixins to be defined for the class-like entities.
2016-04-11T05:11:40Z drmeister: Mixins don't add fields to the struct, they are simply added to the classes direct-superclasses.
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2016-04-11T05:15:15Z drmeister: Why all of this?    I'm SICK. TO. DEATH. of long build times.
2016-04-11T05:17:34Z drmeister: Also, it's a good exercise to implement mini-CLOS while avoiding using special variables for arguments and next-methods.  I figure if I work through it and get it working - then I might have insight to tackle eliminating special variables from CLOS and succeed the next time..
2016-04-11T05:19:00Z drmeister: froggey: Are you online?
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2016-04-11T05:27:42Z Zhivago: Hmm. C++ and short build times aren't good friends.
2016-04-11T05:27:53Z jasom: drmeister: IIRC you used the lisp code for ECL for your implementation, right?
2016-04-11T05:28:07Z drmeister: The C++ is a small part of the problem.
2016-04-11T05:28:21Z drmeister: jasom: Yes.  But I don't use the ECL compiler.
2016-04-11T05:28:26Z jasom: drmeister: do you have any notes (or a good place to look) for what needs to be implemented from scratch in order to use the lisp code from ECL?
2016-04-11T05:29:07Z drmeister: jasom: Without being facetious:  github.com/drmeister/clasp
2016-04-11T05:29:20Z jasom: drmeister: oh, just look at what primitives you implemented, I guess?
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2016-04-11T05:29:53Z drmeister: jasom: About 1/3 to 1/2 of Common Lisp is implemented in C in ECL
2016-04-11T05:30:26Z jasom: oh, that's more than I anticipated...
2016-04-11T05:30:38Z drmeister: And more than I anticipated as well.
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2016-04-11T05:31:18Z drmeister: It's because of bootstrapping - you need a lot of functionality in place to bring the rest of it up.
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2016-04-11T05:31:45Z jasom: right
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2016-04-11T05:34:08Z drmeister: I'm trying to figure out how to bring the rest of it up quickly.
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2016-04-11T05:35:12Z drmeister: I spend an inordinate amount of time compiling the cclasp compiler.
2016-04-11T05:36:07Z Bike: could you split it so you don't have to recompile the entire thing every time, just whatever part you need + relinking the object files?
2016-04-11T05:36:58Z drmeister: Bike: I don't know what depends on what.
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2016-04-11T05:38:36Z drmeister: I've got a pretty good idea now how to write a better compiler and it wouldn't require too much more work.
2016-04-11T05:38:46Z Bike: hm, thanks to these recursive makefiles i don't think i do either
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2016-04-11T05:39:31Z drmeister: Well, the recursive makefiles don't really impact it.   It just starts up clasp and compile-files all of the Cleavir source.
2016-04-11T05:40:54Z drmeister: It's also that I'm making changes to the C++ code - and often that requires everything be rebuilt from scratch.
2016-04-11T05:41:31Z drmeister: It's hard to describe really - I just spend a lot of time rebuilding things.
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2016-04-11T05:57:31Z drmeister: Thanks - goodnight
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2016-04-11T07:37:40Z haom: hello
2016-04-11T07:38:58Z haom: i've just found out that ccl signals errors when slot types dont correspond to the type of the initarg.
2016-04-11T07:39:13Z haom: is there a way to make sbcl also behave this way?
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2016-04-11T07:39:52Z haom: ie to check type conpatibilities in a more stricter way?
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2016-04-11T07:41:09Z haom: also, if my slot type is given, but I want to start with an empty slot, i.e. nil,  how exactly could I do that, so that ccl doesnt signal an error there?
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2016-04-11T07:44:14Z flip214: haom: use ":type (or null <your type)"
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2016-04-11T07:46:43Z haom: flip214: is there a way to make sbcl check for such type mismatches too?
2016-04-11T07:46:51Z haom: (thanks, btw)
2016-04-11T07:47:21Z igam: haom: compile with (declaim (optimize (safety 3)))
2016-04-11T07:47:22Z flip214: haom: turn SAFETY higher, I guess.
2016-04-11T07:47:33Z igam: Always keep safety 3.
2016-04-11T07:48:01Z haom: igam, where would i put that for the whole system?
2016-04-11T07:48:11Z igam: in your .sbclrc
2016-04-11T07:48:31Z haom: I see, thanks.
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2016-04-11T07:48:57Z haom: and, while we are at it, are there other sane settings that should be there?
2016-04-11T07:49:23Z igam: I use:  (declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))
2016-04-11T07:49:38Z haom: okay.
2016-04-11T07:50:21Z haom: and if I would put safety 3 into the project i'm writing, where should that be? in the asd file? in the first lisp file loaded by the asd file?
2016-04-11T07:50:29Z flip214: it's possible that other files override this; ISTR that cl-ppcre has different settings.
2016-04-11T07:50:43Z igam: haom: it should not be put in files loaded by asd.
2016-04-11T07:50:44Z igam: asdf
2016-04-11T07:50:46Z flip214: haom: you could put that in the around ASDF handler
2016-04-11T07:50:57Z igam: haom: you can set different optimization levels in a script used to generate an executable.
2016-04-11T07:51:18Z flip214: there's a :around-compile in ASDF
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2016-04-11T07:51:39Z haom: i dont generate executables, i just quickload everything, and i also work from different machines, thats why i'd like to set security 3 in the system itself.
2016-04-11T07:52:33Z igam: haom: The only asdf operation where you could set the optimization would be: compile-bundle-op, but I would not advise it, because there's no standard way to save the current optimization levels and to restore them once the operation is completed.
2016-04-11T07:53:15Z flip214: haom: you could also use sbcl-specific overrides in the ~/.sbclrc: (sb-c::restrict-compiler-policy 'cl::safety 3)
2016-04-11T07:53:18Z igam: haom: in a generate script, which would be called from a Makefile, and which would set the optimization level only in a separate process (lisp image) before calling sb-ext:save-lisp-and-DIE, this would not be a problem.
2016-04-11T07:53:28Z flip214: then nothing (portable) can set lower than that.
2016-04-11T07:53:37Z igam: flip214: this is a good feature!
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2016-04-11T07:54:53Z haom: ok, thanks for all the advice, I have to read about all this now a bit.
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2016-04-11T11:24:34Z Cxcf: Quick question guys, is there a way to loop with 2 counters indexing themselves at the same time?
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2016-04-11T11:25:19Z splittist: Cxcf: you mean LOOP FOR X ... FOR Y ... ?
2016-04-11T11:25:53Z Cxcf: splittist: will FOR X only increment once FOR Y has already completed?
2016-04-11T11:26:42Z splittist: Cxcf: you misunderstand my ellipses.
2016-04-11T11:27:52Z splittist: Even DO has multiple step forms.
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2016-04-11T11:30:03Z splittist: Cxcf: in short - yes. There are many ways to have 'counters' that are independently (and even dependently) updated each time through the iteration.
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2016-04-11T11:31:41Z Cxcf: could you tell me if this form is correct: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313151
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2016-04-11T11:32:07Z Cxcf: though I think I may have broken the rules of the do() part of the loop form
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2016-04-11T11:32:39Z Cxcf: Ideally, I'd have it print out 0 10, 1 11, etc...
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2016-04-11T11:33:37Z Cxcf: oops, ignore the arguments for that one
2016-04-11T11:33:46Z isoraqathedh: There is no need to surround the do clause with an extra pair of parens.
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2016-04-11T11:34:29Z isoraqathedh: It's just (loop for i from 0 to 10 for j from 10 to 20 do (format ...) (format ...))
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2016-04-11T11:35:04Z isoraqathedh: (Although here you can probably combine the two format strings to one larger string.)
2016-04-11T11:36:09Z Cxcf: isoraqathedh:, splittist that was my problem. thanks for the help
2016-04-11T11:36:40Z Cxcf: do you guys usually prefer loop to the other dotimes, ...ect..?
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2016-04-11T11:39:52Z isoraqathedh: I use loop, but dolist and dotimes are good too.
2016-04-11T11:39:58Z igam: Cxcf: often, you need to do more than just dotimes.  loop comes handy then.
2016-04-11T11:40:06Z isoraqathedh: I'm not that hot on do.
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2016-04-11T11:40:27Z splittist: Extended LOOP is highly seductive for iterative algorithms. And since so many things are iterative, it is easy to let LOOP eat your whole program. I love it (:
2016-04-11T11:40:47Z isoraqathedh: Yeah.
2016-04-11T11:41:01Z Cxcf: ahhhhh, the pooowwwweeeerrrrr
2016-04-11T11:41:07Z Cxcf: Lisp is really growin gon me
2016-04-11T11:41:11Z jackdaniel: (format t "~!#!%RA~ASDF!4#$!s~/!asdf!#$/" (loop some random symbols finally
2016-04-11T11:41:12Z jackdaniel:              3)) ; --> 42
2016-04-11T11:41:19Z isoraqathedh: But sometimes it gets out of hand and because of poor indent support for (loop) I would occasionally do use something else, like iter even when it's not strictly needed.
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2016-04-11T11:42:17Z isoraqathedh: Oh yeah, and format strings can just stop really.
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2016-04-11T11:43:04Z splittist: FORMAT is great. It's not FORMAT's fault people can't be bothered documenting their complicated strings.
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2016-04-11T11:43:40Z isoraqathedh: I mean, I try my best, but
2016-04-11T11:43:48Z isoraqathedh: (format nil "~:[?~;~:*~d~]/~:[??~;~:*~2,'0d~]~:[?~;~:*~c~]" book page (number->letter subpage))
2016-04-11T11:44:52Z igam: Cxcf: you can also use loop for your alternatives: (loop repeat 1 if (= 1 1.)  do (print '=) else do (print '/=) end)
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2016-04-11T11:45:41Z isoraqathedh: I think there is a sexpr alternative to format somewhere but I can't find it anywhere now.
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2016-04-11T11:50:13Z Cxcf: Practical Common Lisp mentioned that some people (*cough* isoraqathedh ) really hated format
2016-04-11T11:50:38Z Cxcf: I'm throwing in with FORMAT, I've been impresses so fasr
2016-04-11T11:50:41Z isoraqathedh: I don't really hate it, I'm just kind of like "well, it can be better".
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2016-04-11T11:51:15Z isoraqathedh: I guess I can make something better if I put in some effort and time, but I have neither in plentiful supply with me right now.
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2016-04-11T11:52:16Z Zhivago: I recommend avoiding loop and format whenever they become complex and less readable than alternatives.
2016-04-11T11:52:45Z Zhivago: (format nil "~:[?~;~:*~d~]/~:[??~;~:*~2,'0d~]~:[?~;~:*~c~]" book page (number->letter subpage)) is a good example of how not to use format well.
2016-04-11T11:52:47Z isoraqathedh: The basic rule: write code that you can be sure to read later.
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2016-04-11T11:53:35Z Cxcf: another question, is there a way I can make loop iterate in steps greater than one?
2016-04-11T11:53:38Z Zhivago: It's generally straight-forward to pull things like iteration out of format and into sane code.
2016-04-11T11:53:50Z Zhivago: No, but you can make the steps larger.
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2016-04-11T11:54:26Z Zhivago: (loop for x from 1 to 10 by 2 collecting x)
2016-04-11T11:55:35Z jsgrant:  
2016-04-11T11:55:35Z jsgrant: isoraqathedh But, yadda yadda, "Lisp Curse".
2016-04-11T11:55:54Z Cxcf: what does collecting do?
2016-04-11T11:56:00Z isoraqathedh: It's the same as collect.
2016-04-11T11:56:11Z isoraqathedh: Save the number into a list that the (loop) expression returns.
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2016-04-11T11:59:54Z mood: isoraqathedh: There's a format alternative described here: http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/format-stinks.html, with a link to the YTools manual containing a more detailed description
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2016-04-11T12:00:40Z Cxcf: Zhivago: I just included the by 10 part, without collect, and it seems to be working
2016-04-11T12:00:48Z Cxcf: Zhivago: also, awesome nick
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2016-04-11T12:42:32Z Cxcf: Any tips on how to decipher/resolve an 'illegal function call' error?
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2016-04-11T12:44:06Z Xach: Cxcf: that often means you have a non-symbol in the car of a form evaluated as a function.
2016-04-11T12:44:21Z Xach: Cxcf: that can happen easily if you typo a macro name and it tries to evaluate the macro syntax normally.
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2016-04-11T12:44:42Z Xach: like (casse foo (32 bar) (t 99))
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2016-04-11T12:49:24Z Xach: Cxcf: what was it in your case?
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2016-04-11T12:51:08Z Cxcf: I'm still looking
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2016-04-11T12:51:15Z Cxcf: its diving me crazy
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2016-04-11T12:51:33Z Xach: Cxcf: how big is the search space?
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2016-04-11T12:52:31Z Xach: Is it small enough to paste to paste.lisp.org?
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2016-04-11T12:54:01Z Cxcf: sure, http://paste.lisp.org/+6PMU
2016-04-11T12:54:06Z Cxcf: and thanks Xach
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2016-04-11T12:54:39Z Xach: There's the trouble right there.
2016-04-11T12:54:40Z Cxcf: the read-in-slot-data function works beautifully when I call it in the repl
2016-04-11T12:54:53Z Cxcf: that quick??!!
2016-04-11T12:55:01Z Xach: You have a list as the car of a form instead of a symbol.
2016-04-11T12:55:16Z Cxcf: what's car?
2016-04-11T12:55:20Z Xach: The first element of a list.
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2016-04-11T12:55:41Z Cxcf: hold on, let me think about that
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2016-04-11T12:55:53Z Xach: the syntax for cond is: (cond (test1 form1 ... formN) (test2 form1 ... formN) ...)
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2016-04-11T12:56:07Z Xach: You have (cond (test1 ((form1 ...))))))
2016-04-11T12:56:32Z Xach: so it's trying to evaluate ((foo bar baz)) as a function call, but (foo bar baz) doesn't name a function.
2016-04-11T12:56:35Z Cxcf: I thought the form was (cond ((test1)(form1)))
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2016-04-11T12:56:39Z Xach: Now you know better!
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2016-04-11T12:57:42Z Cxcf: Hold on, so is this wrong: http://www.afralisp.net/autolisp/tutorials/cond-vs-if.php
2016-04-11T12:58:03Z Xach: I haven't checked the link yet, but the url suggests it's for autolisp, not common lisp.
2016-04-11T12:58:10Z Xach: Lisps aren't interchangeable, in general.
2016-04-11T12:58:26Z Cxcf: .....oh....
2016-04-11T12:58:35Z Cxcf: ....damnit
2016-04-11T12:58:42Z Xach: But now that I've checked it, no, it has correct syntax.
2016-04-11T12:58:55Z Xach: see the (< angle 90) bit...it does not wrap its forms in an extra list.
2016-04-11T12:59:20Z splittist: Cxcf: it isn't unusual to have logic in the value part of a let binding form. And see also let*. Not that you need any of that in hit-or-miss.
2016-04-11T12:59:20Z Xach: So, it looks like in that case autolisp and common lisp have very similar COND.
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2016-04-11T13:03:06Z Cxcf: So my problem is that in the (cond ((test1)(form1))) style, I've enclosed the test in a list. Is that somewhat correct?
2016-04-11T13:03:25Z Xach: No.
2016-04-11T13:03:50Z Xach: If the test is a function, it is a list. If it is a variable, it is a symbol.
2016-04-11T13:04:04Z Xach: the problem is that you enclose the subsequent forms in a list. they should just appear individually.
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2016-04-11T13:05:10Z Cxcf: Aaaaahhhh, I see!
2016-04-11T13:05:11Z Cxcf: one second
2016-04-11T13:05:50Z Zhivago: (cond (#|if|# (happy boy) #|then|# (jump up) #|then|# (jump down)))
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2016-04-11T13:07:43Z splittist: Cxcf: the asterisks in the syntax descriptions in the hyperspec are worth paying attention to.
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2016-04-11T13:08:36Z Cxcf: I got it. Thank you guys so much! and what is the hyperspec?
2016-04-11T13:09:22Z splittist: !
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2016-04-11T13:09:41Z Cxcf: And when you guys write your lisp, do you waterfall the parens until you get everything? Or do they always collect in the tail?
2016-04-11T13:09:56Z Zhivago: Collect in the tail.
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2016-04-11T13:10:56Z splittist: The Common Lisp HyperSpec (CLHS) is, basically, the standard. You can download it to your local machine, or access it from lots of places online. Including via a bot in this channel.
2016-04-11T13:11:22Z jdz: clhs cond
2016-04-11T13:11:22Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_cond.htm
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2016-04-11T13:14:25Z DeadTrickster: can you guys suggest good lock-free lib (not stmx) ?
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2016-04-11T13:22:28Z Cxcf: splittist: Woah! That sounds awesome! Though I'm kind of new to irc. Can you link a tutorial on how to use IRC bots? or is it simpler than that?
2016-04-11T13:23:06Z splittist: Cxcf: see what jdz did above? See how specbot responded with a url? That's it!
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2016-04-11T13:35:21Z Cxcf: splittist: thats fantastic!
2016-04-11T13:35:23Z isoraqathedh: What's the accepted way to break up long strings?
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2016-04-11T13:35:36Z Cxcf: clhs setf
2016-04-11T13:35:36Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_setf_.htm
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2016-04-11T13:35:51Z Cxcf: clhs specbot
2016-04-11T13:35:51Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for specbot.
2016-04-11T13:36:12Z Cxcf: is there a way to do it privately in irc so I don't spam everyone with my queries?
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2016-04-11T13:37:24Z splittist:  "/msg specbot clhs minusp"
2016-04-11T13:37:34Z splittist: With no quotes
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2016-04-11T13:38:49Z dlowe: isoraqathedh: cl-ppcre:split
2016-04-11T13:39:12Z dlowe: isoraqathedh: there's also a split-sequence library, but if you're doing much with strings, you probably want ppcre anyway
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2016-04-11T13:43:01Z isoraqathedh: Break up long strings in code that is.
2016-04-11T13:43:02Z splittist: isoraqathedh: and uiop:split-string (for simple cases)
2016-04-11T13:43:06Z splittist: Oh.
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2016-04-11T13:43:34Z splittist: isoraqathedh: long string literals?
2016-04-11T13:43:36Z dlowe: isoraqathedh: typically that's done by ignoring line length limits :D
2016-04-11T13:44:06Z dlowe: if it really hurts you, you can do #.(concatenate 'string "string1" "string2" "string3")
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2016-04-11T13:44:55Z dlowe: it will be evaluated at read time and behave to your code exactly as if you had passed a single long string to your program
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2016-04-11T13:46:11Z Cxcf: thanks splittist , Zhivago , Xach, mood , isoraqathedh , igam and everyone. I really appreciate the  help.
2016-04-11T13:46:42Z dim: maybe cl-interpol has something about that? can't remember
2016-04-11T13:46:55Z Zhivago: You're welcome.
2016-04-11T13:47:37Z dlowe: it could, but I don't think it does
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2016-04-11T13:48:10Z dim: didn't see anything about that in a quick skim through the docs
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2016-04-11T13:50:37Z jdz: isoraqathedh: there's also #.(format nil ...)
2016-04-11T13:50:41Z jdz: clhs 22.3.9.3
2016-04-11T13:50:41Z specbot: Tilde Newline: Ignored Newline: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cic.htm
2016-04-11T13:50:49Z jdz: with ↑
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2016-04-11T14:24:41Z _rpg: SLIME question: when I change a source lisp file using Franz's emacs-lisp interface, meta-. finds definitions. But when I use SLIME, the position of the function definition strays. Is this a bug, or does SLIME use a static way of finding the defs?
2016-04-11T14:25:23Z _rpg: ELI relies on some (extensible) hooks to find definitions, so editing a file does not break meta-. on its contents.
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2016-04-11T14:25:35Z _rpg doesn't really understand SLIME internals
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2016-04-11T14:28:48Z jackdaniel: _rpg: various implementations implement swank functions, you may hook anything to it
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2016-04-11T14:31:24Z jackdaniel: just grep in the slime directory for "defimplementation find-source-location" to compare various implementations
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2016-04-11T14:38:48Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
2016-04-11T14:38:57Z oleo: noon beach!
2016-04-11T14:39:24Z moore33: hey beach
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2016-04-11T14:48:49Z beach: I have been thinking about what Bike told drmeister this around 12 hours ago, about not recompiling files that don't need to be recompiled.  Can ASDF express the kind of dependency that is required then?  I think what would be needed is to express that in order to compile a certain Common Lisp file to FASL, some other FASL files need to be loaded first (and recompiled if not up to date).
2016-04-11T14:48:50Z beach: Then, if some Common Lisp file has been modified, but not the corresponding source of the FASL files that need to be loaded in order to compile it, then the files it depends on would not have to be recompiled.  Does this make sense?  And can ASDF express it?
2016-04-11T14:49:15Z beach: s/this//
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2016-04-11T14:51:24Z beach: Perhaps that's what ASDF does by default?
2016-04-11T14:51:37Z jackdaniel: beach: I think ASDF does that (I mildly remember I was fixing some bug with ECL bundles and learned that)
2016-04-11T14:51:41Z jackdaniel: yes, by default
2016-04-11T14:52:08Z beach: Then I wonder why drmeister finds himself in the situation of having to recompile to many things all the time.
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2016-04-11T14:52:31Z jackdaniel: I don't know
2016-04-11T14:52:39Z eudoxia: breach: if I understand you correctly that's what ASDF does. when a file is modified, every file that's further down the chain of dependencies is recompiled
2016-04-11T14:53:05Z eudoxia: if you modify a file "foo.lisp" in a A that B depends on, every file after "foo.lisp" is recompiled, and everything in B is recompiled
2016-04-11T14:53:12Z eudoxia: or reloaded whatever
2016-04-11T14:53:34Z jackdaniel: recompiled. B may depend on macros in A
2016-04-11T14:53:35Z beach: I see yes.
2016-04-11T14:53:35Z JuanDaugherty: does somebody own asdf these days? I seem to remember something about cloc or somesuch.
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2016-04-11T14:53:53Z jackdaniel: current maintainer is Robert Goldman
2016-04-11T14:54:02Z jackdaniel: supported by the previous maintainer Fare Radieu
2016-04-11T14:54:03Z eudoxia: I thought Mr. Goldman had stepped down
2016-04-11T14:54:09Z JuanDaugherty: ah, thx
2016-04-11T14:54:35Z jackdaniel: eudoxia: for the best of my knowledge it's not truth, but I may be wrong of course
2016-04-11T14:54:36Z eudoxia: I assume fare owns it because whenever I need to check the source I go to github.com/fare/asdf :)
2016-04-11T14:54:42Z JuanDaugherty: well authoritative distro is good enough for me
2016-04-11T14:54:42Z eudoxia: ok
2016-04-11T14:54:43Z Xach: mr _rpg
2016-04-11T14:55:18Z JuanDaugherty: clcc or whatever it was a cologeny of lib stuff
2016-04-11T14:56:48Z beach: I guess if one wanted for a file only to be compiled and not loaded after compilation, one would use a compile-op instead, right?
2016-04-11T14:56:59Z JuanDaugherty: yeah "github asdf" returns two, guess you can pick
2016-04-11T14:57:21Z beach: I haven't looked into this very closely because I don't have the problems that drmeister does.  At least not yet.
2016-04-11T14:57:54Z JuanDaugherty: my bad the other wasn't the lisp asdf
2016-04-11T14:58:34Z beach: Maybe drmeister frequently modifies the compiler so that he feels compelled to recompile everything after such a modification.
2016-04-11T14:59:08Z jdz: beach: there are quite a few cases where people use the :serial t option for components instead of specifying the dependencies
2016-04-11T14:59:35Z jackdaniel: beach: changing the compiler (ie the commit number) causes invalidating all the compiled files
2016-04-11T14:59:52Z beach: jdz: I certainly do for simplicity, but then I don't have those problems that drmeister refers to and that will require him to write a new bclasp compiler.
2016-04-11T15:00:02Z jackdaniel: beach: this is a safety mechanism – different versions of the implementation are considered incompatible
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2016-04-11T15:00:28Z beach: jackdaniel: Right.
2016-04-11T15:01:00Z _rpg: jackdaniel: Thanks!  I'll have a look. Maybe cargo-cult what allegro does.
2016-04-11T15:01:13Z jackdaniel: _rpg: yw :)
2016-04-11T15:01:29Z _rpg: eudoxia:  You should not use fare's ASDF repo. Non-authoritative.
2016-04-11T15:01:37Z _rpg: eudoxia: The cl.net repo is the authoritative one.
2016-04-11T15:02:06Z _rpg: I'm still maintaining -- I have ripped out the code that was making my life hell.
2016-04-11T15:02:12Z jackdaniel: eudoxia: but report bugs on lunchpad, I had one issue hanging on cl.net for some time
2016-04-11T15:02:16Z _rpg: That said, Windows is essentially unsupported.
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2016-04-11T15:02:43Z _rpg: jackdaniel is right -- do not use cl.net git<foo> for bug reports: use launchpad.
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2016-04-11T15:03:07Z jackdaniel: launchpad, right :p
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2016-04-11T15:03:30Z _rpg: Some achieve gitlab, some have gitlab thrust upon them.
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2016-04-11T15:03:53Z jackdaniel: _rpg: I think that gitlab has option to disable issue tracking for the project
2016-04-11T15:04:11Z jackdaniel: s/option/an option/
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2016-04-11T15:09:13Z _rpg: jackdaniel: Thanks. I'll try to figure out how to turn it off.
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2016-04-11T15:11:29Z jdz: there's a per-project setting
2016-04-11T15:13:12Z jdz: there's a parameter in chef thing to have it off by default
2016-04-11T15:13:51Z jdz: it is also possible to configure external issue tracker for a project
2016-04-11T15:14:20Z jdz: that way issues in commit messages will go to the external one
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2016-04-11T15:22:09Z jdz: there's a "custom issue tracker" in "services"
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2016-04-11T15:29:08Z warweasle: With cffi in windows, where does it look for libraries?
2016-04-11T15:30:52Z jackdaniel: afair current working directory and system directory (C:\windows\system or something like that)
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2016-04-11T15:31:40Z warweasle: jackdaniel: So I *should* be able to add the library to a release.
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2016-04-11T15:33:04Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I think shinmera did something of this kind with qtools, but not sure
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2016-04-11T15:46:37Z dwchandler: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-04-11T15:50:00Z _rpg: thanks, jdz
2016-04-11T15:50:49Z jdz: _rpg: glad to be of assistance1
2016-04-11T15:50:56Z jdz: and assistance2
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2016-04-11T16:00:30Z isoraqathedh: jdz: The problem with ~\n is that it borks on Windows (which silently changes it to ~\r\n)
2016-04-11T16:01:13Z jdz: isoraqathedh: that should not be a problem
2016-04-11T16:01:27Z isoraqathedh: It is on SBCL for some reason.
2016-04-11T16:01:28Z jdz: isoraqathedh: which implementation are you using?
2016-04-11T16:01:49Z isoraqathedh: Immediately errors out. I think SBCL late 1.2 to 1.3, forgot the exact subversion.
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2016-04-11T16:02:44Z Xach: jdz: it causes an error because ~\r is not a valid ~ control code.
2016-04-11T16:03:02Z Xach: If you edit with emacs with the unix file encoding, you may have better luck. i
2016-04-11T16:03:35Z isoraqathedh: Ah, I would, but Git switches line endings for me so I have to switch it back (and then discard because a diff that's solely changing line endings can really throw it off. Somehow.)
2016-04-11T16:03:59Z jdz: clhs 13.1.7
2016-04-11T16:03:59Z specbot: Character Names: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/13_ag.htm
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2016-04-11T16:04:16Z jdz: shouldn't that be covered by ↑?
2016-04-11T16:04:40Z jdz: i'm referring to the definition of #\Newline
2016-04-11T16:05:07Z isoraqathedh: That last line is troubling.
2016-04-11T16:05:58Z jdz: i guess SBCL may choose to not support CRLF as #\Newline
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2016-04-11T16:07:30Z Xach: jdz: it's sort of a choice by apathy
2016-04-11T16:07:38Z Xach: it would take extra work which hasn't been done yet
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2016-04-11T16:07:53Z isoraqathedh: Was there an issue placed in whatever bug tracker they have for it?
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2016-04-11T16:09:02Z Xach: An issue about supporting windows end-of-line conventions? I don't know.
2016-04-11T16:15:46Z DeadTrickster: Xach, hey, do you know any cool concurrency lib that implements non-locking algorithms (except stmx)?
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2016-04-11T16:19:16Z froggey: drmeister: I'm around now
2016-04-11T16:20:04Z drmeister: froggey: Does the first pass of your compiler generate s-expressions?
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2016-04-11T16:21:24Z froggey: no. it used to, but now it generates ast objects that represent a sort-of subset of common lisp
2016-04-11T16:22:20Z drmeister: Ah.
2016-04-11T16:22:36Z drmeister: Do you use CLOS in your compiler?
2016-04-11T16:22:41Z Xach: DeadTrickster: hmm, not sure
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2016-04-11T16:23:40Z DeadTrickster: :-( hashtable + mutexes i awfully slow
2016-04-11T16:23:47Z froggey: a little bit. the ast nodes are all standard objects and I use generic functions to dispatch on them, but there's no fancy MOP use or anything like that
2016-04-11T16:24:15Z drmeister: froggey: You bootstrapped off of sbcl - correct?
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2016-04-11T16:24:46Z froggey: yeah
2016-04-11T16:26:21Z froggey: the compiler gets loaded into sbcl and is used to cross compile a bunch of stuff. the core runtime, the compiler, clos and other stuff. that gets linked together, then is used to build the rest of the system natively
2016-04-11T16:26:47Z drmeister: I see - so you've had CLOS all the time.
2016-04-11T16:27:44Z froggey: pretty much
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2016-04-11T16:28:34Z froggey: when the image boots for the first time it still needs to initialize CLOS, but that's simple & doesn't need the compiler
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2016-04-11T16:29:25Z drmeister: Where did you get your CLOS code?
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2016-04-11T16:31:29Z froggey: it's based on Closette, which you should be able to find by googling "closette.lisp". I'm not sure where I originally found it
2016-04-11T16:32:08Z froggey: I had to modify it a whole bunch though. Closette doesn't support eql specializers, struct, and doesn't perform very well
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2016-04-11T16:48:20Z drmeister: I have closette.   Do you use special variables to store combined-method-args and next-methods?
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2016-04-11T16:58:26Z froggey: drmeister: no, they get passed as normal arguments to the method function
2016-04-11T16:59:47Z drmeister: Good - was that in the original closette - or did you make it that way.   The ECL CLOS code uses special variables - it's a PITA.
2016-04-11T17:00:04Z froggey: that's how it was originally
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2016-04-11T17:01:12Z froggey: I don't think I have anything exactly like those two variables. method-functions accept a list of arguments and a next method function (that can be null if there is no next method), but that's probably close enough
2016-04-11T17:01:28Z froggey: in any case, no special are involved during method dispatch
2016-04-11T17:01:34Z froggey: *special variables
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2016-04-11T18:55:08Z drmeister: froggey: Thank you.
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2016-04-11T18:58:19Z froggey: drmeister: no prob, feel free to ask if you've got any more questions
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2016-04-11T19:17:37Z Xach: H4ns: any new fun stuff in yason?
2016-04-11T19:18:28Z Xach: Sorry, just a joke. I am having trouble with github's packaging of tags because it makes the tarball vary a bit.
2016-04-11T19:18:35Z Xach: New releases make my life a little easier.
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2016-04-11T22:13:58Z Cxcf: I'm using cond and I want to require two test cases. Something similar to && in java. Any ideas?
2016-04-11T22:14:11Z Cxcf: my online seaerches are bringing up bitwise operators
2016-04-11T22:15:07Z DeadTrickster: use and bro
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2016-04-11T22:19:27Z Xach: Sometimes CL lets you get away with fewer tests, too.
2016-04-11T22:19:35Z Xach: I like (< 42 x 64) for example.
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2016-04-11T22:20:25Z DeadTrickster: yea or without explicit vars like (and user (user-name user))
2016-04-11T22:20:59Z DeadTrickster: really rare property - and/or return objects
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2016-04-11T22:23:19Z Cxcf: DeadTrickster: use and bro?
2016-04-11T22:23:35Z DeadTrickster: yeah
2016-04-11T22:23:44Z DeadTrickster: clhs and
2016-04-11T22:23:44Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_and.htm
2016-04-11T22:24:57Z Cxcf: DeadTrickster: OOOH, I thought you meant "use" and "bro"
2016-04-11T22:25:03Z Cxcf: Christ.
2016-04-11T22:25:51Z Cxcf: I'd say I'm not as thick as I seem, but sometimes I wonder msyelf.
2016-04-11T22:25:55Z Cxcf: *myself
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2016-04-11T22:30:26Z DeadTrickster: hehe
2016-04-11T22:30:27Z DeadTrickster: )
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2016-04-11T22:42:57Z dwchandler: Cxcf: just reading scrollback, and that was awesome :)
2016-04-11T22:44:05Z dwchandler: and because I read in reverse chronological order, I saw "use" and "bro" too
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2016-04-11T23:18:47Z Cxcf: dwchandler: glad to be of service:)
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2016-04-11T23:58:02Z Cxcf: clhs loop
2016-04-11T23:58:02Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm
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2016-04-12T00:00:37Z Cxcf: I know this isn't #emacs, but do any of you know if it's possible to download CLHS as a .info so I can access it through the info reader?
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2016-04-12T00:07:15Z edgar-rft: Cxcf: download links see <https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CommonLispHyperspec>
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2016-04-12T00:22:12Z xristos: Cxcf: also in org-mode http://linbsd.org/clhs.org
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2016-04-12T01:11:10Z doesthiswork: I read Straychey's Fundamental Concepts in Programming Languages lecture notes and was shocked by "a > b -> j, k := i" but defsetf let me replicate it
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2016-04-12T02:17:06Z mejja: it's a pity common lisp sucks..
2016-04-12T02:17:16Z loke: Good morning Lisp!
2016-04-12T02:17:31Z loke: mejja: Yes. Even greater pity that there is nothing better.
2016-04-12T02:18:11Z Zhivago: By what metric?
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2016-04-12T02:19:49Z mejja: The SI unit for pressure is the pascal (Pa)
2016-04-12T02:19:58Z mejja laughs
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2016-04-12T02:20:48Z mejja: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5nYX-iuUFk
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2016-04-12T02:21:12Z mejja: RIP Bowie!
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2016-04-12T02:25:09Z aeth: Lots of little flaws in Common Lisp could be fixed with a new standard... e.g. afaik since it's by default case-insensitive with upcasing, I think switching to by default case-insensitive with downcasing wouldn't break most applications. But it would make it look more readable and modern in an REPL.
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2016-04-12T02:25:31Z aeth: But afaik, the flaws with Common Lisp are usually little annoyances, not anything major
2016-04-12T02:25:37Z White_Flame: I actually prefer the upcasing.  It makes synbols distinguished
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2016-04-12T02:25:49Z White_Flame: symbols, even
2016-04-12T02:25:59Z loke: aeth: You canm set the case ocnversion to swapcase (or whatever it's called) and it'll be readable in the REPL today.
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2016-04-12T02:26:33Z aeth: loke: then it's even more trivial than I thought to fix the default behavior in a hypothetical future standard
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2016-04-12T02:27:04Z loke: aeth: Exactly what is it you want fixed that isn't possible already?
2016-04-12T02:27:05Z warweasle: aeth: Well you can always just implement it in lisp.
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2016-04-12T02:28:21Z aeth: loke: Standardizing threads, unicode, etc., could be useful. Not just possible, but already handled by portability libraries.
2016-04-12T02:28:42Z loke: aeth: I agree with you on that, but I was referring to case sensitivity thing.
2016-04-12T02:29:50Z warweasle would like the ability to subclass standard types: numbers, cons cells, etc. I could make numbers with limits (like ADA's only good feature), know when a list has been updated, etc.
2016-04-12T02:30:17Z aeth: warweasle: or sequences. You can subclass them in certain implementations like sbcl, but not portably.
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2016-04-12T02:33:10Z warweasle: aeth: Also, standardize c-compatible structs and ararys.
2016-04-12T02:33:35Z Bike: that would be difficult, since C doesn't have "C-compatible" structs and arrays
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2016-04-12T02:35:10Z warweasle: Bike: Right now there is no promise data will be held the same area. I understand that if we use a lisp type, like t or nil. But we should be able to define our own bit boxes.
2016-04-12T02:35:13Z aeth: loke: Well, in general, I would like to see greater compatibility with other languages, and lowercase instead of an inverted read/print case would probably simplify things greatly considering that most languages are case-insensitive, with lowercase as their preferred case.
2016-04-12T02:35:35Z Bike: something like a low level byte array would be kind of nice, yeah
2016-04-12T02:35:44Z aeth: (it appears to be :invert, not :swapcase)
2016-04-12T02:35:46Z warweasle: aeth: I also think many of scheme's naming conventions are easier to remember.
2016-04-12T02:35:50Z mejja: case-insensitive is the correct default for lisp...
2016-04-12T02:36:13Z loke: mejja: symbols in Lisp are indeed case-insensitive
2016-04-12T02:36:15Z warweasle: mejja: I'm just going to jump into my fox-hole for a while.
2016-04-12T02:36:18Z loke: I mean case-sensitive
2016-04-12T02:36:29Z aeth: mejja: I agree that case-insensitive is the way to go for Common Lisp, but I would prefer it to be case-insensitive with *lowercase* as the case that it is actually represented as internally.
2016-04-12T02:36:42Z Bike: case insensitivity is kind of nice but after learning a bit about strange foreign languages i wonder how possible it is.
2016-04-12T02:36:51Z aeth: The way Lisp is "case-insensitive" is to by default turn (cons 1 2) into (CONS 1 2)... I would much rather see (cons 1 2)
2016-04-12T02:37:04Z mejja: agreed.
2016-04-12T02:37:21Z loke: Bike: You don't even have to go to "strange" languages for tha problem. In fact, most languages have various casing issues.
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2016-04-12T02:37:39Z loke: Bike: How about French and German?
2016-04-12T02:37:53Z warweasle: loke: They are pleasant.
2016-04-12T02:38:08Z Bike: "strange" was self deprecation since i'm monoglotty, but yes
2016-04-12T02:38:09Z Zhivago: Just use Chinese.
2016-04-12T02:38:15Z mejja: French for food. German for swinging!
2016-04-12T02:38:19Z aeth: warweasle: I agree about Scheme's conventions, especially the foo? and foo-bar? instead of foop and foo-bar-p... That would probably be going too far in CL, though.
2016-04-12T02:38:22Z loke: warweasle: They also expose major issues with any attempt to make anything case-insensitive
2016-04-12T02:38:23Z mejja hides
2016-04-12T02:38:40Z Bike: well, "strange" and "foreign".
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2016-04-12T02:39:17Z loke: Bike: That's a matter of persepctive.
2016-04-12T02:39:39Z Zhivago: Just use bold and italic instead of foo! and foo?
2016-04-12T02:39:59Z warweasle: aeth: Also, t and nil really show lisp's age. I think of it as a point of pride, but I've seen younger programmers dislike the entire language just for that.
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2016-04-12T02:40:10Z warweasle: Zhivago: Yeah, why aren't we using Rich Text for symbols?
2016-04-12T02:40:22Z Bike: get some color forth up in this bitch
2016-04-12T02:40:23Z Zhivago: Lack of forward thinking.
2016-04-12T02:40:37Z Zhivago: Young people are attacted by bright colors, after all.
2016-04-12T02:40:53Z warweasle: cons, <b>cons</b> and <blink>cons</blink> should all be different symbols.
2016-04-12T02:41:03Z aeth: warweasle: The reason I'd prefer #t to t (forget about the separate false/nil thing) is so I can use t as a variable, to represent time. Usually it's a Lisp-1 problem, having to pick odd variable names to work around the language (like l instead of list or something)... but in this one case, Scheme lets you use the more convenient name.
2016-04-12T02:41:05Z loke: Zhivago: something like this? (if (𝓁𝒾𝓈𝓉 list) 1 2)
2016-04-12T02:41:21Z warweasle: Zhivago: My emacs color scheme looks like an epileptic disco.
2016-04-12T02:41:26Z Zhivago: Unfortunately my client is too stupid to render that inteligibly.
2016-04-12T02:41:39Z Zhivago: warweasel: I presume that you are afflicted with youth?
2016-04-12T02:41:45Z warweasle: loke: NICE!
2016-04-12T02:42:04Z loke: warweasle: Yeah, I think we're on to something here.
2016-04-12T02:42:13Z Bike: i think the fact i see four boxes unfortunately answers the "why not" question
2016-04-12T02:42:13Z warweasle: Imaging the gaping security backdoors we could make with that!
2016-04-12T02:42:34Z aeth: Btw, the advantage of "foo?" over "foop" is that a machine can tell it's a predicate, instead of the word "foop"
2016-04-12T02:42:46Z White_Flame: so can the human :-P
2016-04-12T02:42:58Z aeth: Usually the human can use context.
2016-04-12T02:43:12Z Zhivago: Well, only if you don't overload it -- but the same goes for p.
2016-04-12T02:43:30Z Zhivago: You could just append u to the end of any other symbol that would otherwise end with p to solve the problem.
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2016-04-12T02:43:37Z aeth: I suppose a machine could use context too (check a dictionary for foop?), but it then becomes more complicated than the naive "just check the last char for ?" algorithm
2016-04-12T02:43:41Z Zhivago: e.g., pop would become popu.
2016-04-12T02:44:21Z warweasle: Bike: Ok, Racket's IDE let's you print out graphics on the REPL. I always liked that, but I think we should experiment with graphical symbols. I will be abused more than anything, but using a symbol can really be useful understanding a program.
2016-04-12T02:44:30Z loke: Zhivago: Clearly pop would be (ℙ𝕆ℙ stack)
2016-04-12T02:44:36Z Zhivago: I think that I'd rather see contexts that were sufficiently clever to know they were asking for a predicate.
2016-04-12T02:44:44Z aeth: Zhivago: but then what happens when you have a word that ends in pu?
2016-04-12T02:44:50Z warweasle: aeth: (if (took #'foop 'warweasle) ....
2016-04-12T02:44:54Z Zhivago: Then you could just write foo, and it would pick out the appropriate predicate.
2016-04-12T02:45:10Z Zhivago: aeth: Just add another pu.
2016-04-12T02:45:24Z warweasle: loke: Now that's style! (I wish I knew how you were doing that.)
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2016-04-12T02:45:34Z Zhivago: The process can be referred to as pupu'ing.
2016-04-12T02:45:55Z White_Flame: foo‽ ← a predicate with side effects
2016-04-12T02:46:05Z loke: warweasle: Just use a unicode tool. Wikipedia has a dedicated page for the "letterlike forms": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_Alphanumeric_Symbols
2016-04-12T02:46:07Z aeth: White_Flame: that's a great idea
2016-04-12T02:46:57Z loke: White_Flame: That's awesome!
2016-04-12T02:47:01Z warweasle: aeth: If any function did that, the programmer should be immediately attacked by gophers.
2016-04-12T02:47:34Z aeth: warweasle: gophers the animal, gophers the protocol, or gophers the name Go programmers sometimes call themselves?
2016-04-12T02:47:46Z warweasle: aeth: All.
2016-04-12T02:48:01Z loke: The empty list should be represented by ∅ (unicode U+2205 EMPTY SET)
2016-04-12T02:48:05Z aeth: warweasle: ouch
2016-04-12T02:48:17Z warweasle: aeth: But only because the weasels are busy.
2016-04-12T02:48:47Z Bike: i mean, john wilkins pretty much figured it out, right
2016-04-12T02:48:51Z warweasle needs to add cl-balance-weasels-on-a-rake to quicklisp.
2016-04-12T02:49:12Z warweasle: U+2205
2016-04-12T02:49:21Z warweasle: That rolls off the tounge.
2016-04-12T02:49:36Z warweasle: I mean toung∅.
2016-04-12T02:49:59Z loke: 2205 is the code point number
2016-04-12T02:50:27Z aeth: loke: only if ø (the Danish letter) is also used, to represent something else
2016-04-12T02:51:18Z warweasle: aeth: Duh, that would be null so (ø ∅) It makes perfect sense.
2016-04-12T02:52:23Z loke: Or this one: 𝅙
2016-04-12T02:52:35Z warweasle: loke: I can't even see that one.
2016-04-12T02:52:44Z loke: warweasle: It says "NULL HEAD" :-)
2016-04-12T02:53:15Z warweasle: loke: (not (car ...
2016-04-12T02:53:41Z aeth: but null is literally nothingness itself, and so shouldn't be represented by any character, which is not nothing but something.
2016-04-12T02:53:48Z warweasle: OH: I want lisp to handle arbitrarily long c...r functions.
2016-04-12T02:54:03Z loke: Not would be  ¬ yes?
2016-04-12T02:54:18Z aeth: cadadddddadddddaadddddaadddadddr some-tree
2016-04-12T02:54:21Z aeth: I want to use that somewhere
2016-04-12T02:54:23Z loke: aeth: Well, there is the NUL character (unicode code 0)
2016-04-12T02:54:39Z warweasle: caddadadddaddr
2016-04-12T02:54:55Z warweasle: I'm done waiting on this upload. Have a good night all.
2016-04-12T02:54:59Z loke: I have actually wanted a 4-level c...r sequence once.
2016-04-12T02:55:03Z loke: I mean 5-level
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2016-04-12T02:56:22Z aeth: not allowing the infinite-length c...r function shows one of the weaknesses in Common Lisp, comparable to a language not having something equivalent to CL's &rest
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2016-04-12T03:01:32Z White_Flame: perl 6 has embraced unicode for its operators
2016-04-12T03:02:01Z White_Flame: I think editing environments and input methods do need to come further and be more standardized before we can expect that style to be truly widespread
2016-04-12T03:02:16Z White_Flame: (space cadet keyboards for everyone!)
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2016-04-12T03:13:09Z zRecursive: (sb!win32:crypt-gen-random 32) reports "Package SB!WIN32 does not exist.""
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2016-04-12T03:15:29Z Bike: sbcl renames its packages for boot reasons, use - for ! in package names
2016-04-12T03:16:00Z zRecursive: ok
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2016-04-12T03:19:49Z aeth: White_Flame: The X11 compose key is a nice way to input common unicode like å or é or λ or € etc. if the keyboard doesn't have it
2016-04-12T03:21:36Z aeth: I rely on the compose key to be able to type characters from most languages that use Latin characters (including Esperanto e.g. ĉ), but with the standard US keyboard and all I had to give up is right alt, which I never used.
2016-04-12T03:22:19Z aeth: For Cyrillic or most Greek characters, though, I have to change keyboard layouts.
2016-04-12T03:22:43Z Zhivago: I find ibus is quite reasonable.
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2016-04-12T03:23:45Z aeth: I wish emacs hotkeys used scancodes (like e.g. how SDL handles things) rather than actual keys, though. So I could actually use the keyboard shortcuts if I am typing in Greek to e.g. test how Greek characters are handled in SBCL as symbols (like e.g. earlier today).
2016-04-12T03:24:22Z aeth: Do people who use keyboards other than the standard US one have to actually rebind emacs to get the keys to be in the intended place?
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2016-04-12T03:41:54Z PuercoPop: aeth: wouldn't a reader macro and a package with exports all the symbols exported in the CL package except for t and nil allow you have #t and #f?
2016-04-12T03:49:10Z aeth: PuercoPop: most of the bikesheddable little parts of CL are doable in some way, but it's not really worth it to do that
2016-04-12T03:49:40Z aeth: I think there's one project that does a whole bunch of this sort of thing, and I guess when it's done like that it could be worth it, but it's mostly a matter of taste, so good luck having people agree on using that
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2016-04-12T03:52:00Z aeth: Maybe even the c...r thing is implementable, with reader macros, but probably not worth it, and you might have to change the syntax a bit. Worst case scenario, just write a new read and export that! (I think)
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2016-04-12T04:05:13Z PuercoPop: aeth: the problem with a any one project to implement different idiosyncrasies, is that most idiosyncrasies are on a per-user basis. For example I like the r{flet,lables} macros in misc-extensions but any reasonable project maintainer wouldn't include a dependency just for it.
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2016-04-12T04:09:02Z White_Flame: aeth: I actually use Caps Lock for my compose key, which I find much more conveniently located
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2016-04-12T04:10:24Z White_Flame: but the compose stuff isn't very standardized, or complete.  While I simply might not be understanding something, the default contents assumed a 'Greek' key without any other option for typing things like alpha
2016-04-12T04:12:10Z aeth: White_Flame: my current keyboard makes capslock inconvenient to type, probably to prevent accidental presses, which would be a good thing if I didn't always replace it with control... but I can't really rebind it because it's so inconvenient to type so I never use it
2016-04-12T04:12:39Z aeth: i.e. it makes the key really small so there's a big gap from shift and a to capslock
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2016-04-12T04:14:12Z aeth: White_Flame: the only Greek character I can figure out how to input is λ (lambda), which is l l... So yes, that is an oversight.
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2016-04-12T04:14:56Z aeth: As I think I said earlier, I literally just use the Greek key binding for the rest, which is *almost* but not quite like QWERTY. so ασδφ instead of asdf makes sense
2016-04-12T04:15:15Z aeth: s/Greek key binding/Greek keyboard layout/
2016-04-12T04:20:42Z White_Flame: huh, l l doesn't work with my default set
2016-04-12T04:20:54Z White_Flame: I added in g a for α
2016-04-12T04:22:02Z White_Flame: but it is a very laborious task to expect every end user to perform to make compose useful.  it really should be done once well and standardized, instead of ad hoc copies of organically grown compose defs
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2016-04-12T04:54:41Z aeth: White_Flame: ad hoc and organically grown is how nearly everything in Unix works. Worse is better, etc
2016-04-12T04:55:27Z Bike: people have different needs, anyway
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2016-04-12T05:04:21Z flip214: White_Flame: aeth: My ~/.Xmodmap  has
2016-04-12T05:04:21Z flip214: keycode  42 = g G g G dead_greek dead_greek dead_greek dead_greek
2016-04-12T05:04:25Z flip214: keycode 133 = Multi_key
2016-04-12T05:05:17Z flip214: and then ~/.XCompose can be set from quite some lists...
2016-04-12T05:05:30Z flip214: eg. https://github.com/kragen/xcompose/blob/master/dotXCompose
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2016-04-12T05:07:26Z flip214: For me, AltGr+g switches to Greek characters. For some reason they work in an xterm but not in konsole ;{
2016-04-12T05:07:58Z aeth: You can make KDE use a compose key, through KDE, and then use it anywhere in KDE
2016-04-12T05:08:24Z aeth: I don't think KDE reads ~/.XCompose though. I think I might have tried to add stuff before
2016-04-12T05:08:34Z flip214: aeth: I had it working a year ago.
2016-04-12T05:08:42Z flip214: Then some upgrade broke it.
2016-04-12T05:08:50Z aeth: flip214: that's KDE for you
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2016-04-12T05:11:31Z aeth: I think any sufficiently large C++ project or collection of C++ projects is doomed to be very buggy.
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2016-04-12T05:27:43Z epicCane: http://pastebin.com/cDGBrysQ
2016-04-12T05:28:06Z epicCane: sometimes the convert() function convert also one more char than strlen(a) (it's a random char),
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2016-04-12T05:30:14Z Bike: i don't think b is null terminated? but what does that have to do with lisp?
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2016-04-12T06:09:20Z jackdaniel: 07:12 < aeth> I think any sufficiently large C++ project or collection of C++ projects is
2016-04-12T06:09:23Z jackdaniel:               doomed to be very buggy.
2016-04-12T06:09:26Z jackdaniel: same with CL and the other languages ;)
2016-04-12T06:09:33Z jackdaniel: good morning
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2016-04-12T07:43:31Z kolt: Howdy friends
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2016-04-12T08:32:42Z Oddity: hi
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2016-04-12T10:52:30Z novemberist: Hello, I've been getting this annoying error message/prompt when starting slime lately: "End of file during parsing"  while loading the history. Continue? (y or n)  - any idea what might be causing this or how i could get rid of it?
2016-04-12T10:54:36Z fe[nl]ix: delete the history file
2016-04-12T10:55:07Z novemberist: any idea where it is located?
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2016-04-12T10:58:26Z edgar-rft: with me here (Debian Linux) it's ~/.slime-history.eld
2016-04-12T11:00:10Z Hertz: Or in windows it's C:\Users\USER\AppData\Roaming\.slime-history.eld
2016-04-12T11:01:00Z sepi: Where am I supposed to devar my globals (used of an instance of a webapp) when I plan to load-system my system?
2016-04-12T11:01:28Z novemberist: thank you, that fixed it
2016-04-12T11:01:52Z jackdaniel: sepi: wherever you want. I'd go with the first file (system-name.lisp), but it's up to you
2016-04-12T11:02:40Z sepi: jackdaniel: so top-level devars should get evald when loading my system?
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2016-04-12T11:04:25Z jackdaniel: you may control when it's evaluated with (eval-when …), but I'm not sure what do you mean? Yours system will get compiled, and when you load the system, your variables will be created (unless they are already present)
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2016-04-12T14:15:54Z hitecnologys: Hello, #lisp! I was wondering if there was a way to make optima match symbol constants via, say, STRING=. I want to make constructs like (one -> two) in macro and I definitely don't want to import -> because it sounds... well, you know. I was trying to evade reinvention of the wheel too by using existing solution for pattern matching.
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2016-04-12T14:31:59Z wgslayer: can i embed abcl in an existing java project and run its repl from a thread ? it is possible with clojure but CL is more convenient for me...
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2016-04-12T14:44:48Z igam: hitecnologys: I don't know optima, but in general pattern matchers allow you to specify a predicate to match an object.  So (one (?p ->p) two)  with (defun ->p (x) (and (symbolp x) (string-equal "->" x)))  would match.
2016-04-12T14:44:52Z igam: or something similar.
2016-04-12T14:45:21Z igam: (an integer named (?p integerp))  would match (an integer named 42)
2016-04-12T14:46:40Z igam: wgslayer: AFAIK, it should be possible to do something like that.
2016-04-12T14:46:56Z igam: wgslayer: you should ask on the abcl mailling list.
2016-04-12T14:47:06Z drewc: wgslayer: or #abcl
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2016-04-12T14:47:52Z wgslayer: just looked up into the sources... they anyway launch a thread in Main.java and execute their show from there... great
2016-04-12T14:47:54Z hitecnologys: igam: there is something like that in optima, I guess, but I'm not sure how to use it properly.
2016-04-12T14:48:00Z wgslayer: thanks!
2016-04-12T14:48:09Z igam: wgslayer: https://common-lisp.net/project/armedbear/doc/abcl-user.html I'd try something like: Abcl.Interpreter.createInstance.eval("(MY-REPL)");
2016-04-12T14:48:49Z igam: I mean, org.armedbear.lisp.Interpreter.createInstance.eval("(MY-REPL)");
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2016-04-12T14:49:27Z igam: Of course, MY-REPL would use some java GUI framework to do the interactive I/O.
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2016-04-12T14:51:08Z wgslayer: igam, thanks, I prefer to launch swank and connect with emacs :)
2016-04-12T14:51:32Z igam: wgslayer: that's independent. slime/swank work with separate threads.
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2016-04-12T15:54:58Z Raim_: Hello everyone, I've just started reading and practicing Peter Seibel's "Practical Common Lisp".
2016-04-12T15:55:16Z Raim_: I'm barely starting, the first practical chapter which is the simple database one.
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2016-04-12T15:56:16Z Raim_: My current problem is that when I compile the file up to the point of code that I have I always get this error: The value NIL is not of type   (OR (VECTOR CHARACTER) (VECTOR NIL) BASE-STRING PATHNAME       STREAM).
2016-04-12T15:57:14Z Raim_: I see no problem with the code, and you can take a look at it here: http://pastebin.com/y98Dkdkc
2016-04-12T15:57:36Z Xach: Raim_: that means, generally, that something got NIL when it expected a pathname (or a designator for one)
2016-04-12T15:57:58Z mood: *query-in-out* is nil, but you're trying to FORMAT to it
2016-04-12T15:58:17Z Xach: NIL can be used as a destination in FORMAT.
2016-04-12T15:58:26Z mood: Uhh, yes, of course
2016-04-12T15:59:50Z Xach: Raim_: what do you do when you encounter that error?
2016-04-12T16:00:06Z Xach: Raim_: how do you compile to the file?
2016-04-12T16:00:19Z Raim_: I'm just doing the following: (load (compile-file "~/Documents/Lisp/simple-database.lisp"))
2016-04-12T16:00:46Z Raim_: Then it says the error is in line 24, where it's asking the y-or-n-p for Ripped.
2016-04-12T16:00:49Z igam: the standard stream is bound to *query-io* not
2016-04-12T16:01:08Z Xach: Raim_: can you paste that error output?
2016-04-12T16:01:15Z Xach: Where it says it's on line 24?
2016-04-12T16:01:22Z igam: not *query-in-out*. Is *query-in-out* one of your (the book's) own variables?
2016-04-12T16:01:24Z Xach: Raim_: did you paste the entire simple-database.lisp file?
2016-04-12T16:01:52Z mood: igam: It's defined right at the top of the file as nil
2016-04-12T16:02:02Z igam: ok.
2016-04-12T16:02:21Z igam: Perhaps you'd want to do (setf *query-in-out* *query-io*) then ?
2016-04-12T16:02:33Z Raim_: This is the entire error output: http://pastebin.com/Tc5BbBz1
2016-04-12T16:02:47Z Raim_: Let me try that one out, igam.
2016-04-12T16:02:59Z igam: Use M-x check-parens RET
2016-04-12T16:03:33Z mood: Yes, that's the problem. There's a missing closing paren at the end
2016-04-12T16:04:48Z mood: Adding it fixes the problem
2016-04-12T16:04:50Z Raim_: Wow, yes.
2016-04-12T16:04:53Z mood: Weird error message :S
2016-04-12T16:04:55Z Raim_: Thank you, igam and mood.
2016-04-12T16:05:05Z Raim_: It compiled correctly.
2016-04-12T16:05:06Z Raim_: Thanks!
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2016-04-12T16:06:05Z Xach resolves not to feel like chopped liver
2016-04-12T16:07:22Z Raim_: Man, I was really banging my head against the wall with that error. All the googling gave me statements about editing the sbcl config and stuff like that.
2016-04-12T16:07:41Z theos: thanks Xach
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2016-04-12T16:10:34Z Raimmaster: Okay, this is better.
2016-04-12T16:11:29Z vydd: Raimmaster: you should probably switch to an editor that will at least warn you about unbalanced parens
2016-04-12T16:11:48Z Raimmaster: I'm using Emacs, but I think with check-parens I can do now.
2016-04-12T16:11:55Z vydd: ah, cool
2016-04-12T16:12:02Z Raimmaster: Thanks anyways.
2016-04-12T16:12:07Z igam: Raimmaster: try using paredit-mode in emacs.
2016-04-12T16:12:14Z theos: slime mode?
2016-04-12T16:12:23Z igam: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit
2016-04-12T16:14:13Z Raimmaster: Thanks, Igam. I'll try to configure it now.
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2016-04-12T16:50:52Z warweasle: Yea! Clinch got mentioned on reddit! In /r/lisp...in a comment.
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2016-04-12T16:52:08Z warweasle: Ahh...indirectly.
2016-04-12T16:52:16Z dlowe: sounds like lemonodor fame to me
2016-04-12T16:52:18Z warweasle: I'll take what I can get. Yea!
2016-04-12T16:52:35Z warweasle: dlowe: Wasn't he friends with the dwarf?
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2016-04-12T16:57:05Z warweasle: I made a video to show off Clinch: https://youtu.be/cPKUzhhNK-I
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2016-04-12T18:28:49Z phoe_krk: http://www.jyt.io/
2016-04-12T18:28:58Z phoe_krk: C++ seems to be finally catching up to Lisp.
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2016-04-12T18:40:29Z eudoxia: the HTML in jyt.io has such weird indentation...
2016-04-12T18:40:30Z warweasle: Can I give a method two names? I have a long name and a short name and I wonder if calling one from the other might be slower.
2016-04-12T18:40:43Z eudoxia: it's soooo weird
2016-04-12T18:41:22Z eudoxia: warweasle: sometimes I have, for instance, functions using CL naming convention (e.g. vector=, vector+, cross-product) and a set of 'shorthand' macros (v, v+, x)
2016-04-12T18:42:18Z Bicyclidine: warweasle: you mean a function? you can do (setf (fdefinition 'new-name) (fdefinition 'old-name))
2016-04-12T18:42:37Z phoe_krk: ^
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2016-04-12T18:44:54Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: THat's cool. Thanks.
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2016-04-12T18:52:43Z Xach: warweasle: I think I would use only the short name if I was in that situation.
2016-04-12T18:53:20Z warweasle: Xach: That's exactly it. I'm really tired of typing (reset-rotation ... (setf (translation ...
2016-04-12T18:53:25Z jasom: warweasle: note that it may still be slower to do it that way, because the compiler is allowed to make assumptions about when function definitions defined with DEFUN might change
2016-04-12T18:54:24Z Xach: warweasle: any opportunity to abstract away some tedium?
2016-04-12T18:54:47Z warweasle: jasom: maybe later I make them a macro.
2016-04-12T18:55:01Z warweasle: Xach: Yes. I like to code at the speed of thought.
2016-04-12T18:55:26Z jasom: warweasle: inline functions can be good too
2016-04-12T18:55:46Z warweasle: jasom: How do you define inlines in lisp?
2016-04-12T18:56:05Z jasom: clhs declaim
2016-04-12T18:56:05Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_declai.htm
2016-04-12T18:56:07Z jasom: clhs inline
2016-04-12T18:56:07Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_inline.htm
2016-04-12T18:56:14Z jasom: warweasle: read those links
2016-04-12T18:56:16Z warweasle: I should have known.
2016-04-12T18:56:25Z warweasle: declaim magic.
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2016-04-12T18:57:17Z jasom: note that inline is just a suggestion, but it does mean that the behavior is not well defined if you redefine a function somewhere.  Also, IIRC sbcl unconditionally inlines functions declared inline at default optimization levels
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2016-04-12T19:22:43Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: Hi everyone!
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2016-04-12T19:24:18Z phoe_krk: Hey hi
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2016-04-12T19:28:06Z oleo: hello
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2016-04-12T19:31:12Z jasom: it was a drive-by greeting
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2016-04-12T21:41:49Z aeth: Will I get into pathname trouble if I do this? (pathname (uiop/os:getenv "HOME"))
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2016-04-12T21:42:47Z aeth: (This is an example, I know there are better ways to get home, i.e. (user-homedir-pathname)
2016-04-12T21:42:50Z aeth: )
2016-04-12T21:42:52Z _death: yes.. use uiop/filesystem:parse-native-namestring
2016-04-12T21:44:38Z aeth: even that won't work, unfortunately. There are some things like XDG_DATA_DIRS that send multiple directories, separated by colons. PATH is probably the worst offender, with quite a few paths
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2016-04-12T21:45:00Z _death: your code said HOME
2016-04-12T21:45:41Z _death: if you need to parse something that's not a native namestring, you need to parse it a different way
2016-04-12T21:46:21Z aeth: What I need to work with are $XDG_DATA_HOME, $XDG_CONFIG_HOME, and $XDG_CACHE_HOME. These *should* be single directories like $HOME, or NIL (most likely NIL) and in the case of NIL (and only in that case) should my previous code with the default values be used.
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2016-04-12T21:46:48Z aeth: There shouldn't be a colon there.
2016-04-12T21:47:48Z aeth: In fact, you're right, I shouldn't be concerned about colons because where colons are allowed are defined by https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
2016-04-12T21:53:07Z _rpg: aeth: I'm pretty sure UIOP has its own special-purpose processors for all of the XDG stuff.
2016-04-12T21:53:16Z _rpg: Fare wanted ASDF to support them.
2016-04-12T21:53:45Z jasom: uiop:user-configuration-directories gets $XDG_CONFIG_HOME
2016-04-12T21:53:49Z aeth: _rpg: oh yes, there I see it
2016-04-12T21:53:50Z _rpg: aeth: Look in uiop/configuration.lisp
2016-04-12T21:53:52Z aeth: (xdg-data-home)
2016-04-12T21:54:51Z _rpg: Fare looked deep into the eyes of this abyss, and it went through at least one round of overhaul, so I'd suggest you just use that.
2016-04-12T21:55:24Z _rpg: /Unless/ you are working with Windows in which case all bets are really off, since XDG was designed only for linux
2016-04-12T21:55:39Z _rpg: I don't even know if it behaves sensibly on Mac OS
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2016-04-12T21:56:03Z aeth: _rpg: It unfortunately does not behave sensibly on Mac OS, based on reading the code with the version I have
2016-04-12T21:56:11Z jasom: _rpg: it follows XDG on Mac, which is non-native for Mac
2016-04-12T21:56:20Z aeth: It actually does have a special case for windows, which makes it behave sensibly there, but fails miserably to support OS X.
2016-04-12T21:57:11Z aeth: So unfortunately my library is still necessary, but only for OS X.
2016-04-12T21:57:33Z aeth: (Possibly for Windows too, idk yet)
2016-04-12T21:57:36Z jasom: what about BSD?
2016-04-12T21:57:53Z aeth: jasom: I think BSD people are used to dealing with applications that behave as if it's Linux
2016-04-12T21:58:58Z jasom: anything that makes it so I don't have 500+ files in my home directory starting with a period is an improvement on Linux
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2016-04-12T22:01:24Z jasom: aeth: see here for a bit of discussion on it https://bugs.launchpad.net/asdf/+bug/1437480
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2016-04-12T22:04:51Z _rpg: I'm not even sure WTF would be "right" on Mac OS X, because of the whole ~/Library/Preferences thing
2016-04-12T22:04:59Z aeth: OS X is very well-defined. https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/FileManagement/Conceptual/FileSystemProgrammingGuide/FileSystemOverview/FileSystemOverview.html
2016-04-12T22:05:06Z _rpg: I just use dotfiles and pretend that's not there.
2016-04-12T22:05:57Z aeth: _rpg: just put it in Library/Application Support/.../config/
2016-04-12T22:06:11Z _rpg: aeth: It's well-defined, it's just that it's arbitrary how you map that definition onto XDG.
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2016-04-12T22:06:16Z aeth: In Windows you need to put both the config and cache as subdirs
2016-04-12T22:06:40Z _rpg: This is why I wasn't happy that ASDF incorporated XDG. It's kind of like putting the Registry into ASDF.
2016-04-12T22:06:58Z _rpg: It was never intended to work for anything other than linux.
2016-04-12T22:07:36Z aeth: _rpg: It's not entirely arbitrary, you just put config and cache as subdirs of the app data rather than in separate directories, unless there is a separate config and/or cache on other OSes. On OS X, there is a separate cache but not a separate config.
2016-04-12T22:08:08Z aeth: (because Preferences can't be written to.)
2016-04-12T22:08:48Z aeth: It looks like UIOP independently came to the same conclusion I did, but only supported Windows this way, not OS X.
2016-04-12T22:09:23Z aeth: The only difference is that I capitalized and they did not, but those filesystems are case-insensitive anyway afaik
2016-04-12T22:11:02Z aeth: So basically ((os-windows-p) (xdg-data-dirs "config/")) would be exactly the same thing on OS X, but there is a separate cache path to write for OS X in xdg-cache-home
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2016-04-12T22:13:15Z _rpg: aeth: The problem is that if you have applications from some compatibility layer like MacPorts or Homebrew, those apps will not use the Mac OS native behavior, but will behave like linux.
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2016-04-12T22:13:47Z _rpg: So given an application pathname, it's kind of heuristic to guess where configuration files should live.
2016-04-12T22:14:12Z aeth: _rpg: I only care about writing, not reading.
2016-04-12T22:14:21Z aeth: (Well, obviously, later I'll read the stuff I wrote.)
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2016-04-12T22:15:25Z _rpg: (cond ((and (os-mac-osx-p) (behaves-like-apple-says-p app-name)) ...)...)
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2016-04-12T22:15:44Z aeth: _rpg: Yes, I know, I am writing that now, but with if.
2016-04-12T22:15:56Z aeth: _rpg: I'll convert it to a cond when Mezzano or something becomes a viable porting target for #lispgames
2016-04-12T22:16:02Z _rpg: I suppose if you are writing your own config files and then reading them, it's just round-trip through the same code, and you're safe.
2016-04-12T22:16:25Z aeth: at least until UIOP changes its approach and I can no longer read stuff I wrote :-p
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2016-04-12T22:17:12Z aeth: It's funny how I'm doing all this work just for the special case of OS X even though I will be switching to cl-vulkan as soon as possible (it's not ready yet, and even when it is, it'll be a while to be usable), and hence not support OS X with my game engine.
2016-04-12T22:18:50Z _rpg: uiop has been pretty stable on this, except for the time when we found that we had really misread the standard document, and had to fix it.
2016-04-12T22:19:26Z aeth: The proper way to handle this xdg thing would probably be to have two different functions, one strictly XDG and one portable to OS X and Windows.
2016-04-12T22:19:32Z aeth: This would break existing code, on Windows, though.
2016-04-12T22:19:54Z aeth: i.e. I want (config-home), which should be (xdg-config-home) on Linux and probably BSD, and something else on other OSes
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2016-04-12T22:21:27Z _rpg: aeth: doesn't the OS-X thing mean that you need (config-home app)? I.e., the config directories are app-specific?
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2016-04-12T22:21:59Z aeth: _rpg: The config and cache directories are app-specific in the pseudo-xdg Windows paths in uiop already. Only the config one would need to be app-specific on OS X.
2016-04-12T22:22:48Z aeth: Separating the (os-windows-p) stuff from the xdg functions would make it clearer that they are in fact arbitrary, and will only work if the application is using uiop's system
2016-04-12T22:25:18Z _rpg: IIRC, Fare tried to make the XDG functions do /something/ on Windows, but I don't claim to understand what.
2016-04-12T22:26:36Z aeth: _rpg: (xdg-data-home "config/") means afaik it just makes a config subdirectory, same with cache. config could easily behave like this on OS X, using the OS X native app data path like Windows uses
2016-04-12T22:29:14Z aeth: It's inconsistent because it will only work for applications that follow this same convention, i.e. applications that use UIOP. Just like the native OS X way of doing things that is *not* used
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2016-04-12T22:38:09Z _rpg: aeth: right. As long as you just round-trip this stuff, all should be well.
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2016-04-12T22:42:22Z aeth: Although it is rather annoying to essentially have a library that exists for the sole purpose of portability to OS X, when UIOP handles everything else.
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2016-04-12T22:44:36Z aeth: Especially since the UIOP function it extends is misnamed, considering that it doesn't use XDG on Windows but provides paths for Windows anyway.
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2016-04-12T23:18:11Z sepi: How do I specify a type hint for a defconstant?
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2016-04-12T23:18:39Z Bike: (declaim (type whatever constant-name)), but you probably don't need to.
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2016-04-12T23:27:19Z sepi: Bike: thx. Why do you think I don't need to?
2016-04-12T23:28:07Z |3b|: if the implementation can't figure out the type of a constant on its own, it probably don't do much with it anyway
2016-04-12T23:28:13Z |3b|: *won't
2016-04-12T23:29:27Z warweasle: |3b|: Hello..
2016-04-12T23:30:04Z |3b|: 'lo
2016-04-12T23:30:51Z Bike: sepi: it's a constant. the compiler already knows its value, which is more specific information than its type is.
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2016-04-12T23:31:22Z warweasle: |3b|: I wanted to pester you about classimp.
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2016-04-12T23:36:10Z sepi: Bike: makes sense. Still sbcl complains about a + call involving the constant
2016-04-12T23:36:18Z Bike: complains how?
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2016-04-12T23:38:20Z sepi: ; note: forced to do GENERIC-* (cost 30)
2016-04-12T23:38:20Z sepi: ;       unable to do inline float arithmetic (cost 5) because:
2016-04-12T23:38:23Z sepi: ;       The first argument is a NUMBER, not a (COMPLEX DOUBLE-FLOAT).
2016-04-12T23:39:10Z Bike: and what's the form?
2016-04-12T23:43:10Z sepi: Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313341
2016-04-12T23:43:31Z sepi: line 26
2016-04-12T23:45:26Z |3b|: FLOAT won't get much optimization out of sbcl, and 0 isn't a float anyway
2016-04-12T23:46:55Z |3b|: and are you sure it isn't line 35? (* +earth-radius...)
2016-04-12T23:47:09Z Bike: yes, i compiled it locally and i do get the warning mentioned.
2016-04-12T23:47:23Z |3b|: acos is the only part i can see that might return a (COMPLEX DOUBLE-FLOAT) in that code
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2016-04-12T23:49:10Z Bike: it might be reordering the arguments somewhere, because if you declare the return types of lon and lat those notes disappear.
2016-04-12T23:49:20Z Bike: if that's the case, dang it's confusing
2016-04-12T23:50:51Z |3b| gets no note though
2016-04-12T23:50:58Z Bike: i mean, with an optimize speed 3.
2016-04-12T23:51:12Z |3b|: ah, right
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2016-04-12T23:58:15Z sepi: Bike: but in general the way I do the declaym should be correct, no?
2016-04-12T23:58:29Z Bike: What way you declaim?
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2016-04-13T00:05:12Z sepi: yeah
2016-04-13T00:06:22Z Bike: that was a question
2016-04-13T00:06:41Z Bike: what are you referring to, i meant
2016-04-13T00:07:14Z |3b| might put the declaim before the definition, just so it can complain if the value you give it is the wrong type
2016-04-13T00:08:00Z sepi: Well, I wonder why I get the warning if I'm telling the compiler the type in the correct way in order for the warning to go away
2016-04-13T00:08:55Z |3b|: problem seems to be the struct accessors not the constant
2016-04-13T00:09:08Z Bike: yeah, and sbcl doesn't seem to use :type, i guess because of redefinitions.
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2016-04-13T00:09:58Z |3b|: redefining structs isn't defined anyway, so not much of an argument
2016-04-13T00:10:21Z |3b|: ah, nevermind... misread the code
2016-04-13T00:10:28Z |3b|: yeah, it doesn't use them for classes
2016-04-13T00:10:53Z |3b|: you can also add arbitrary other methods on those GFs that return other types
2016-04-13T00:11:23Z |3b|: GF dispatch is probably most expensive part of that function anyway though
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2016-04-13T00:14:41Z sepi: |3b|: hmm, so can I somehow help the compiler with the dispatch?
2016-04-13T00:15:04Z Bike: the dispatch pretty much has to be at runtime
2016-04-13T00:15:28Z |3b|: yeah, not much you can do in portable CL, and i don't know of anything specific for sbcl either
2016-04-13T00:16:52Z |3b| would probably just use a typed vector instead of a class, or maybe a struct
2016-04-13T00:17:28Z |3b|: or just not worry about optimizing it, depending on what you do with it
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2016-04-13T00:25:38Z sepi: I was mainly just curious what performance I can get. I'll most probably not need it anyways.
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2016-04-13T00:29:51Z sepi: thanks for your help!
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2016-04-13T00:36:45Z sepi: Having replaced the calss with a struct, the compiler doesnt complain anymore :)
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2016-04-13T00:47:57Z sepi: I can now get a list of 1e6 shops sortet in roughly 2s. That's good enough :) I don't know if Postgres with postgis would have been better
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2016-04-13T01:24:25Z zRecursi`: clhs use-package
2016-04-13T01:24:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm
2016-04-13T01:26:55Z aeth: I just noticed that the HyperSpec uses .htm instead of .html... Wow that's ancient.
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2016-04-13T02:40:44Z aeth: And it turns out that UIOP doesn't *quite* do Windows the way I wanted to do Windows... oh well. At least I got the already-trivial library down to 41 lines, though.
2016-04-13T02:42:04Z aeth: (about the length of trivial-left-pad)
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2016-04-13T03:22:48Z xieyuheng: do we have proper tail-call in SBCL and CCL ?
2016-04-13T03:23:05Z loke: xieyuheng: No. CL does not guarantee it.
2016-04-13T03:23:27Z loke: xieyuheng: It can't really be done reliably in CL anyway, so don'even consider it.
2016-04-13T03:23:30Z jasom: xieyuheng: sbcl will do it on the correct optimization settings
2016-04-13T03:23:42Z loke: (SBCL does do it when it can, but you can't rely on it)
2016-04-13T03:23:55Z jasom: loke: I rely on it all the time
2016-04-13T03:24:16Z jasom: and I don't see how it "can't really be done reliably in CL anyway"
2016-04-13T03:24:39Z jasom: the spec doesn't define what tail position is, but there is nothing about the language that would make it unreliable
2016-04-13T03:25:19Z loke: jasom: Because you don't relly know what's hiding behind macros. Also, if you have a LET form that encloses a dynamic variable, there is code that restored the old value that will prevent tail calls from being optimised.
2016-04-13T03:25:21Z xieyuheng: I forgot this point about CL, and had written all my loops by tail recursive functions >_<
2016-04-13T03:25:21Z jasom: it might not always be obvious when something is in tail position or not due to e.g. dynamic bindings, but I've never had any trouble predicting when sbcl would produce a tail call
2016-04-13T03:25:27Z loke: It's way too fragile to be relied upon.
2016-04-13T03:26:00Z loke: Also, having the code crash with a stack overflow because the global optimisation limiter has been enabled is _very_ annoying.
2016-04-13T03:26:20Z loke: I often enable that in SBCL to force max debug settings when developing code.
2016-04-13T03:26:23Z jasom: xieyuheng: yeah, don't write loops as tail recursive functions
2016-04-13T03:27:27Z xieyuheng: alas ~
2016-04-13T03:27:40Z loke: xieyuheng: CL has this very nice macro: LOOP. It makes loos very clear and readable. There are no reasons to make them harder to understand, harder to optimise and potentially crashing.
2016-04-13T03:27:41Z Zhivago: CL and JS both need explicit tail call syntax.
2016-04-13T03:28:18Z loke: Zhivago: That would be useful. I believe there is a library out there that does some rewriting into loops, similar to what Clojure does.
2016-04-13T03:28:27Z xieyuheng: loke: yes you are right, I just forgot that point .
2016-04-13T03:29:40Z jasom: I have yet to find a way of writing state-machines that looks more aesthetically pleasing than using tail-calls; a tagbody with dynamic scope might be about as good, but alas, it has lexical scope.
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2016-04-13T03:30:51Z jasom: returning the function-name for the next state and doing a funcall in a loop is the best I have; any other suggestions are welcome
2016-04-13T03:30:55Z loke: jasom: How about a function that is essentially a large CASE, returning the next state?
2016-04-13T03:31:13Z loke: jasom: Then an outer loop just callign that function repeatedly? That's what I have done on occasions.
2016-04-13T03:31:32Z Zhivago: It makes it awkward when the state is nicely decomposible.
2016-04-13T03:31:47Z Zhivago: Decomposing the state into N arguments with TCO is very nice.
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2016-04-13T03:43:05Z epicCane: where can I add the objects in lisp
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2016-04-13T03:44:51Z aeth: It's usually very easy to translate something that's provided as tail recursion into a do. Very easy.
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2016-04-13T03:46:56Z aeth: You can also use do to write a very short a trampoline/thunk to emulate tail recursion in a language, but that would be for e.g. writing in CL a language that requires tail recursion.
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2016-04-13T03:48:59Z aeth: Hmm... That's what jasom was describing, I looked for the word, but not for the description of it. Sorry.
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2016-04-13T03:55:12Z aeth: Here's something I wrote up very quickly a month or two ago: http://paste.lisp.org/+6PS3
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2016-04-13T03:57:13Z aeth: (I see already that I could apply De Morgan's to simplify the conditional, although I doubt that would speed it up)
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2016-04-13T08:49:06Z knobo: good idea for string-split? http://paste.lisp.org/display/313380
2016-04-13T08:50:14Z knobo: Resuing split-sequence with a custom test function, that keeps track of quotes and escapes
2016-04-13T08:51:41Z |3b|: matching " with ' sounds confusing
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2016-04-13T08:52:54Z Zhivago: It's polite to say "exciting", these days.
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2016-04-13T08:53:31Z knobo: |3b|: I did not think of that.
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2016-04-13T08:53:58Z Zhivago: You might want to design it as a little state machine which emits strings on transition boundaries.
2016-04-13T08:54:04Z knobo: I have to save the quote char then.
2016-04-13T08:54:48Z Zhivago: I'd think about how to have it handle CSV.
2016-04-13T08:55:10Z Zhivago: That should ensure you get a solid solution.
2016-04-13T08:55:24Z |3b|: note that quote chars are TRUE, so you can save them in your flag
2016-04-13T08:55:26Z knobo: Maybe I should  look for an already buildt library for this.
2016-04-13T08:56:03Z knobo: |3b|: yes, and that would be an improvment.
2016-04-13T08:56:33Z knobo: But there might be many conditions I don't handle that I did not think of.
2016-04-13T08:56:39Z |3b|: it is a problem that can get extended arbitrarily, so it is hard to say if that specific amount of extension is generally useful :)
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2016-04-13T08:58:45Z knobo: Do we have any well tested string-split-with-quotes-and-escapes-library for lisp?
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2016-04-13T09:06:13Z loke: knobo: No. but I wrote such a function
2016-04-13T09:06:54Z loke: knobo: Here's the function. Feel free to use it: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato/blob/master/src/potato/commands.lisp#L20
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2016-04-13T09:14:09Z knobo: loke: shoudn't this be valid then? (parse-args "This is a test \\'Not quoted\\' 'this is quoted' \"this' \\\"is mixed'\"")
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2016-04-13T09:15:59Z loke: knobo: It only supports double quote
2016-04-13T09:16:42Z knobo: loke: how about this: (parse-args "\"this' \\\"is mixed'\"")
2016-04-13T09:17:35Z loke: knobo: You're right. That's a bug
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2016-04-13T09:19:54Z loke: Found it
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2016-04-13T09:20:50Z loke: knobo: I have comitted a fix. Please check it out.
2016-04-13T09:20:56Z knobo: thanx :)
2016-04-13T09:21:06Z loke: There. It's pushed
2016-04-13T09:22:03Z knobo: yes, and your version also removes the quotes
2016-04-13T09:22:12Z knobo: Mine does not.
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2016-04-13T09:22:44Z loke: Does it work better now?
2016-04-13T09:22:56Z knobo: yes
2016-04-13T09:23:02Z loke: Cool :-)
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2016-04-13T11:30:28Z kami: Good afternoon.
2016-04-13T11:31:36Z igam: Good afternoon!
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2016-04-13T12:27:08Z sjl: how can I find the current quicklisp "dist version"?
2016-04-13T12:27:19Z sjl: I tried (ql:dist-version) but that wants some kind of name
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2016-04-13T12:28:10Z sjl: has no docstring so I dunno what the name is
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2016-04-13T12:35:44Z splittist: sjl: I would guess a string naming the dist. As opposed to VERSION or AVAILABLE- VERSIONS which take dist objects
2016-04-13T12:36:06Z sjl: I want to know the current dist
2016-04-13T12:36:22Z sjl: like "what dist am I using if I type (ql:quickload 'foo) right now"
2016-04-13T12:36:40Z sjl: I catted out the distinfo.txt file and that seems to have a version in it that looks roughly correct
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2016-04-13T12:53:41Z XachX: sjl: ql-dist:enabled-dists gives a list.
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2016-04-13T13:09:16Z sjl: yeah that matches what I got from distinfo.txt
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2016-04-13T13:50:35Z phoe_krk: hello
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2016-04-13T14:22:30Z eudoxia: is there an equivalent of (sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy) for CCL?
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2016-04-13T14:24:57Z _rpg: eudoxia: Does CCL even have anything like SBCL's compiler policy (isn't that a sort of set of defaults)?
2016-04-13T14:25:18Z eudoxia: I've no idea, I just want to query debug, safety, speed and space
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2016-04-13T14:28:55Z _rpg: eudoxia: oh, yes -- there's no API for that in the ANSI spec.
2016-04-13T14:29:35Z eudoxia: I know, but I hoped CCL would have something like that, and maybe I could write a trivial-policy library to portably query it
2016-04-13T14:29:44Z eudoxia: hmm, wait a second
2016-04-13T14:29:53Z eudoxia: https://bitbucket.org/tarballs_are_good/policy-cond this probably has it
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2016-04-13T14:32:17Z _rpg: Yes, it does. see policy-cond.lisp
2016-04-13T14:33:19Z _rpg: That's a neat package! I've always wanted to be able to do this -- e.g., I have a CHECK macro that I would like to compile to nothing when SPEED is 3 and DEBUG is low.
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2016-04-13T14:34:41Z eudoxia: (defmacro query (&environment env) `',(ccl:declaration-information 'optimize env)) and (query) -> ((SPEED 0) (SAFETY 3) (COMPILATION-SPEED 1) (SPACE 1) (DEBUG 3))
2016-04-13T14:34:42Z eudoxia: awesome
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2016-04-13T15:01:25Z sigjuice: what sort of construct is #+#:ignore? Mentioned in the third paragraph from the bottom here http://web.archive.org/web/20140711172540/http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=1142
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2016-04-13T15:04:42Z White_Flame: the symbol #:ignore won't be found in *FEATURES*, so the next form will be skipped
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2016-04-13T15:05:39Z White_Flame: basically just a more verbose form of #+nil
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2016-04-13T15:13:58Z jackdaniel: #+(or) would be a proper way to exclude sexp (however #+nil is used *everywhere*)
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2016-04-13T15:44:06Z aries_liuxueyang: anyone use coleslaw?
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2016-04-13T15:46:06Z sigjuice: thanks White_Flame, jackdaniel!
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2016-04-13T19:19:35Z phoe_krk: Is there any DO variant which checks its predicate at the end of the loop?
2016-04-13T19:20:05Z phoe_krk: or do I have to explicitly (body) (do (...) (...) (body))?
2016-04-13T19:21:45Z edgar-rft: (DO ((<bindings>)) ((PROGN <body> <test>) <result>))
2016-04-13T19:23:05Z edgar-rft: this way <body> becomes part of the termination-test-form, while the usual body is nil
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2016-04-13T20:01:23Z phoe_krk: edgar-rft: WOW
2016-04-13T20:01:24Z phoe_krk: thanks!
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2016-04-13T20:28:34Z edgar-rft: phoe_krk: the two most non-obvious uses for DO are:
2016-04-13T20:28:34Z edgar-rft: (while <test> <body>) == (do nil ((not <test>)) <body>)
2016-04-13T20:28:34Z edgar-rft: (until <test> <body>) == (do nil ((progn <body> <test>)))
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2016-04-13T20:30:40Z dlowe: that's pretty non-obvious, all right, when (loop while <test> do <body>) and (loop until <test> do <body>) is just around the corner
2016-04-13T20:30:56Z edgar-rft: but not in XLISP!
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2016-04-13T20:31:06Z edgar-rft: :-)
2016-04-13T20:31:06Z dlowe: does xlisp have tagbody?
2016-04-13T20:31:13Z edgar-rft: no
2016-04-13T20:31:26Z dlowe: I think I would try anything before using do
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2016-04-13T20:32:14Z edgar-rft: yes, mee too, but in XLISP DO and DO* are the *only* iteration constructs (beside recursion)
2016-04-13T20:32:44Z dlowe: it is well that the world has common lisp, then
2016-04-13T20:32:54Z edgar-rft: yes, definitely!
2016-04-13T20:32:58Z dlowe: (I am probably missing some context about xlisp due to netsplit)
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2016-04-13T20:34:21Z edgar-rft: no, you didn't. Phoe_krk asked something about DO (in Common Lisp) and I instantly remembered my XLISP nightmares.
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2016-04-13T20:36:42Z anks: Hi, i'm just beginning my journey with writing common lisp code. I want prepare a package, so i've created asdf defsystem file and specified that it depends on iterate package. From what I understand this is just a passive declaration that my project is depending on it. But now, how do i get to use iterate functions?
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2016-04-13T20:38:15Z Bicyclidine: anks: just to get terminology straight, you have prepared an asdf system, which depends on the iterate system. packages are a different matter.
2016-04-13T20:38:33Z anks: Yes, apparently.
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2016-04-13T20:38:49Z Bicyclidine: anks: you should put your .asd somewhere asdf can find it (such as a subdirectory of quicklisp/local-projects), and then do (asdf:load-system :your-system)
2016-04-13T20:39:33Z dlowe: anks: there's a program called quicklisp that we use for managing downloading system dependencies and loading them
2016-04-13T20:39:48Z anks: if I am working with emacs and slime, i should then start slime and use asd:load-syste?
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2016-04-13T20:40:08Z Bicyclidine: sure.
2016-04-13T20:40:17Z dlowe: anks: you should check out http://www.quicklisp.org/
2016-04-13T20:40:40Z anks: dlowe, i will, i think i have actually, i just don't get the feel of it yet :)
2016-04-13T20:40:50Z anks: And one more thing
2016-04-13T20:41:23Z dlowe: anks: if you put your system in quicklisp/local-projects, you can (ql:quickload "my-project") and it will automatically download and load your system and its dependencies
2016-04-13T20:41:26Z anks: The functions brought to scope will be accessible from package namespace, i mean i would have to use iterate:iterate, right?
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2016-04-13T20:41:47Z dlowe: anks: you can use the packages in your package namespace by "using" the package
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2016-04-13T20:42:02Z Bicyclidine: anks: yes, if you don't use it.
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2016-04-13T20:42:12Z anks: oh, nice, i think id put it on my slime's startup when im working on the project
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2016-04-13T20:42:27Z dlowe: (defpackage my-package (:use :cl :iterate)) will allow you to use the exported symbols of iterate without having to prepend "iterate:" to them
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2016-04-13T20:42:34Z dlowe: but it will only be for that one package
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2016-04-13T20:42:50Z dlowe: so I'm not sure how well it will work for your slime startup
2016-04-13T20:42:56Z White_Flame: also note that the system name (like "my-project") is basically independent of the package names that are loaded.  So quickloading "my-project" could give you foo:bar and baz:bar
2016-04-13T20:42:57Z dlowe: better to just put it in your package definition
2016-04-13T20:42:59Z anks: :), it becomes much clearer, thanks
2016-04-13T20:43:14Z ogam: anks: "functions brought to scope" is a meaningless sentence in Common Lisp.
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2016-04-13T20:44:15Z drmeister: The AMOP says that an effective method should be applied to the arguments of the generic function like this:   (FUNCALL (compute-effective-method-function <gf> <methods>) <args>)  - that's FUNCALL and not APPLY - correct?
2016-04-13T20:44:21Z ogam: anks: packages only deal with packages and with symbols. Nothing else.
2016-04-13T20:44:28Z anks: ogam: ok, thanks, thats informative, and i mean it :]
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2016-04-13T20:44:48Z Bicyclidine: drmeister: i think it gets all the arguments as a list, yeah
2016-04-13T20:44:49Z White_Flame: anks: with respect to what ogam said, packages exist in a flat namespace.  If there's the package foo:, then foo: can be referred to from anywhere in any context
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2016-04-13T20:45:49Z ogam: anks: notably, since you can have several things named by the same symbol, and since package only export or  import symbols, package will give access or get access to all the things named by a symbol at once.
2016-04-13T20:46:06Z dlowe: with the understanding that packages don't "hide" anything
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2016-04-13T20:46:15Z dlowe: you can always get to an unexported symbol
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2016-04-13T20:47:39Z anks: ok, so it's a bit like in python, isnt it?
2016-04-13T20:47:53Z White_Flame: python is heirarchical, Lisp isn't
2016-04-13T20:48:03Z White_Flame: there's simply a bag of packages in memory that you can access
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2016-04-13T20:48:13Z drmeister: Bicyclidine: Thanks.
2016-04-13T20:48:18Z ogam: What you can do with a symbol, is not to intern it in any package.  Then it is an uninterned symbol, and it cannot be accessed from the reader. You can thus prevent unwanted access to the symbol, and the things it references.
2016-04-13T20:48:34Z ogam: uninterned symbols made with gensym or make-symbols are often used in macros for this reason.
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2016-04-13T20:49:20Z White_Flame: I don't think that python has a notion of public vs private members of its modules
2016-04-13T20:49:39Z drmeister: I ask because ECL CLOS has the function STANDARD-MAIN-EFFECTIVE-METHOD and it returns a lambda that takes a list of arguments and NO-NEXT-METHOD.  I'm trying to understand why.
2016-04-13T20:49:44Z anks: It doesnt, that's what i meant
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2016-04-13T20:49:53Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/kxlnV5xx/
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2016-04-13T20:50:11Z anks: ogam: gotta write it down for later :)
2016-04-13T20:50:15Z White_Flame: Lisp has exported (which can be ":use"d to pull in to the current page, or accessed by package:symbol), and by default unexported symbols (which you're forced to use package::symbol all the time)
2016-04-13T20:50:27Z White_Flame: s/page/package/
2016-04-13T20:50:31Z Bicyclidine: ah, and it ignores it. how exciting.
2016-04-13T20:50:56Z Bicyclidine: mop compute-effective-method-function
2016-04-13T20:50:56Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for compute-effective-method-function.
2016-04-13T20:51:01Z Bicyclidine: i was afraid of that.
2016-04-13T20:51:03Z Bicyclidine: mop compute-effective-method
2016-04-13T20:51:04Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-effective-method.html
2016-04-13T20:51:49Z drmeister: I ask because ECL CLOS has the function STANDARD-MAIN-EFFECTIVE-METHOD and it returns a lambda that takes a list of arguments and NO-NEXT-METHOD.  I'm trying to understand why.
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2016-04-13T20:52:27Z Bicyclidine: so you said.
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2016-04-13T20:52:43Z Bicyclidine: ok, i might have been mistaken, and there may be no defined protocol for how the effective method is called.
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2016-04-13T21:22:14Z drmeister: Sorry, I had some problems with my IRC client.
2016-04-13T21:22:58Z oleo: re drmeister
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2016-04-13T22:00:10Z drmeister: What is an "effective method"?  Not an "effective method function".   The former isn't defined in AMOP but the latter is.
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2016-04-13T22:00:50Z drmeister: Oh wait, "effective method" is a CLHS glossary term
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2016-04-13T23:32:30Z aries_liuxueyang: jackdaniel: how to write post in coleslaw?
2016-04-13T23:32:50Z aries_liuxueyang: jackdaniel: Is there some command or something?
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2016-04-14T00:04:14Z zRecursive: clhs ldb
2016-04-14T00:04:15Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ldb.htm
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2016-04-14T01:19:47Z carl`: is there a way to get a list of fields a struct has?
2016-04-14T01:20:32Z Bike: mop class-slots
2016-04-14T01:20:32Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/class-slots.html
2016-04-14T01:20:48Z Bike: i guess it's not technicallyd efined on structs.
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2016-04-14T01:21:17Z Zhivago: To what end?
2016-04-14T01:26:22Z carl`: okay, thanks, I guess I need to move from structs to CLOS thou
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2016-04-14T01:55:52Z drmeister: Hi lispers - Is the difference between compute-effective-method and compute-effective-method-function that the former returns a form and the latter returns a function object?
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2016-04-14T01:57:07Z Bike: drmeister: the latter function is not standard (nor mop-standard)
2016-04-14T01:57:15Z Bike: i kind of spoke too soon earlier
2016-04-14T01:57:25Z Zhivago: But it sounds plausible.
2016-04-14T01:57:56Z Bike: i don't think what arguments a method function takes is actaully defined
2016-04-14T01:58:01Z Zhivago: The method is a fragment of code, so that interpretation follows, and fits the definition of compute-effective-method.
2016-04-14T01:58:02Z Bike: mop method-function
2016-04-14T01:58:02Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/method-function.html
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2016-04-14T02:51:44Z John[Lisbeth]: What kind of function would I use to return an int of arbitrary bit size and signed/unsigned status, for exmaple an unsigned 4 bit int?
2016-04-14T02:53:25Z Zhivago: An ordinary function?
2016-04-14T02:53:38Z Bike: lisp integers do not have those qualities. do you mean that you would like to truncate a result?
2016-04-14T02:53:59Z Zhivago: Do you mean a type like (integer -16 16) or something?
2016-04-14T02:54:17Z Bike: maybe i phrased that wrong. i meant, it's not like you need to define that you're doing arithmetic on uint32_ts, or whatever.
2016-04-14T02:57:14Z John[Lisbeth]: All I want is to have a piece of code that when you type it into slime it returns an unsigned int that only has 16 combinations
2016-04-14T02:57:26Z John[Lisbeth]: which should be four bits
2016-04-14T02:57:54Z Zhivago: Then I'd suggest (integer 0 16).
2016-04-14T02:58:11Z John[Lisbeth]: not (integer 0 15) ?
2016-04-14T02:58:53Z Bike: John[Lisbeth]: 4 is an unsigned int that fits in four bits, and it is a self-evaluating form for slime, but i don't think that's what you mean.
2016-04-14T02:59:16Z John[Lisbeth]: so are the ints in lisp bit variable then?
2016-04-14T02:59:23Z Bike: yes.
2016-04-14T02:59:35Z John[Lisbeth]: so it uses as many bits as it uses?
2016-04-14T03:00:01Z Bike: yes. the particular range that corresponds to fitting in machine registers is implementation defined, and if you try something bigger it falls back to bigints transparently.
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2016-04-14T03:00:23Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-04-14T03:00:38Z Bike: as zhivago has been saying, you can also tell the compiler about the particular ranges you know a variable's value will fit in, which might let it optimize some things.
2016-04-14T03:01:05Z White_Flame: if you want to mask off to just the lower 4 bits, you can do (logand 15 <num>)
2016-04-14T03:01:19Z White_Flame: but if you just compute a number between 0 and 15, you're good by default
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2016-04-14T03:02:38Z White_Flame: and a type inferencing compiler like SBCL, depending on what you do, could infer that the return type is (integer 0 15) for you automatically
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2016-04-14T04:26:45Z drmeister: If I invoke (call-next-method with some args) all following (call-next-method) will pass those arguments - correct?    example following
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2016-04-14T04:28:06Z drmeister: This is what sbcl does:
2016-04-14T04:28:08Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/oN6iL95W/
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2016-04-14T04:28:46Z drmeister: I see this in the CLHS re: call-next-method:    When call-next-method is called with no arguments, it passes the current method's original arguments to the next method. Neither argument defaulting, nor using setq, nor rebinding variables with the same names as parameters of the method affects the values call-next-method passes to the method it calls.
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2016-04-14T04:29:28Z drmeister: I ask because my current hacked CLOS code is doing something else, (call-next-method) is passing the original arguments - which I think is wrong.
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2016-04-14T04:29:35Z Bike: yeah. it passes the current /method/'s original arguments, so in the one invoked with call-next-method it's the ones provided by call-next-method. i think.
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2016-04-14T04:29:43Z loke: drmeister: Yes. I think SBCL is doing the right thing.
2016-04-14T04:29:44Z drmeister: From Clasp:
2016-04-14T04:29:46Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/C6ltah62/
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2016-04-14T04:30:18Z loke: Without actually studiying the spec, anything else but the SBCL way would not make sense.
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2016-04-14T04:30:58Z Bike: yeah, a method calling-next-method with the arguments to the gf, which are unknown to it, would be kind of spooky
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2016-04-14T04:31:02Z drmeister: Ok.    stassats and I are hacking the ECL CLOS code to eliminate special variables.  ASDF/quicklisp are failing and I finally found a test case that triggers the problem.
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2016-04-14T04:31:19Z Bike: i admit i'm surprised this comes up ever.
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2016-04-14T04:33:37Z drmeister: What comes up?
2016-04-14T04:34:22Z Bike: whatever bug you're dealing with. call-next-method with arguments is rare in my experience.
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2016-04-14T04:35:05Z Zhivago: It has exciting opportunities for undefined behavior.
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2016-04-14T04:36:10Z drmeister: Oh - sorry - that's not what is triggering the crash, but I noticed this difference in behavior and I have to craft a solution that fixes the crash and fixes this problem at the same time.
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2016-04-14T04:37:22Z drmeister: The original implementers of the ECL CLOS code chose to use special variables for the .combined-method-args. and *next-methods* (why, I have no idea).   It causes all sorts of consing problems with Cleavir generated code because it forces lots of closures to be created.
2016-04-14T04:38:12Z drmeister: I'm trying to eliminate this.  It involves lots of changes scattered across several source files.
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2016-04-14T05:26:49Z jackdaniel: aries_liuxueyang: you write a post in a website repository you have with the suffix post (ie test.post) and you regenerate the website. It's nicely covered here: http://jany.st/post/2015-12-07-blogging-with-coleslaw.html
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2016-04-14T06:31:27Z |3b|: can cffi:with-foreign-objects safely allocate 0 objects?
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2016-04-14T06:44:41Z Bike: (cffi-sys:%foreign-alloc 0) returns a new pointer each time here. weird.
2016-04-14T06:45:58Z |3b|: yeah, linux malloc says it either returns NULL of a fresh pointer you can free()
2016-04-14T06:46:47Z |3b|: so reasonably likely to get that, but not sure if that is true of all malloc, or if all implementations will call malloc directly, or what
2016-04-14T06:47:13Z Zhivago: Both strategies are permitted.
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2016-04-14T06:47:16Z |3b|: and that's before the possibility of stack allocation, or calloc, or whatever
2016-04-14T06:48:23Z Zhivago: But the answer is that 0 length objects can be safely allocated and free'd with malloc, calloc, realloc, free, even though C does not support 0 length objects.
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2016-04-14T07:01:20Z loke: Zhivago: That's undefined behaviour though, yes?
2016-04-14T07:02:14Z JuanDaugherty: there's a return code
2016-04-14T07:02:30Z Zhivago: Which is undefined behavior?
2016-04-14T07:02:39Z loke: Zhivago: malloc(0)
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2016-04-14T07:03:17Z |3b|: looks specified
2016-04-14T07:03:48Z Zhivago: No. It's well defined.
2016-04-14T07:03:51Z |3b|: you get a pointer you can free() or null, which you can also free()
2016-04-14T07:04:08Z JuanDaugherty: not necessarily memory to go with it
2016-04-14T07:04:13Z JuanDaugherty: malloc is very low level
2016-04-14T07:04:25Z loke: Yes, you are right. I double-checked the C spec.
2016-04-14T07:04:26Z |3b|: sure, you probably shouldn't write more than 0 bytes to the pointer if you get one :)
2016-04-14T07:04:30Z JuanDaugherty: ENOMEM and stuff get set someplace iirc
2016-04-14T07:04:47Z Zhivago: Under posix C, perhaps.
2016-04-14T07:05:36Z loke: The POSIX details re. ENOMEM: http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/malloc.html
2016-04-14T07:06:23Z |3b| is still curious if it is expected to be safe in with-foreign-object though, since it isn't specified to use malloc
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2016-04-14T07:06:46Z JuanDaugherty: if malloc isn't safe ur in a world of hurt
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2016-04-14T07:07:00Z loke: |3b|: that's a separate question. :-)  Why don't you just create a SAFE-WITH-FORIEGN-OBJECT?
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2016-04-14T07:07:21Z |3b|: loke: that's the original (and on topic) question though :)
2016-04-14T07:07:31Z loke: |3b|: I would do that
2016-04-14T07:07:34Z |3b| is currently just clamping it to allocate at least 1 for now
2016-04-14T07:07:48Z loke: Or, just have my code ensure it's never called with 0 size.
2016-04-14T07:07:50Z |3b|: since i'm generating the call to with-foreign-object
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2016-04-14T07:08:54Z |3b|: not calling it at all is harder. i'd have to basically reimplement it, since i don't know how many until runtime, and i need to execute the body regardless of the number
2016-04-14T07:09:26Z |3b|: (body obviously depends on the number, so doesn't access the pointer when there are 0 objects)
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2016-04-14T07:09:40Z Zhivago: What is your use-case for zero length allocations?
2016-04-14T07:09:58Z |3b|: C api that takes an optional array of values
2016-04-14T07:10:11Z |3b|: (actually 3 of them)
2016-04-14T07:10:52Z |3b|: so i either allocate/free manually to handle 0 specially, or i with-foreign-object 0 objects
2016-04-14T07:11:01Z |3b|: (or rely on with-foreign-object handling it sanely)
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2016-04-14T07:23:23Z aries_liuxueyang: Hello, everyone.
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2016-04-14T07:36:44Z JuanDaugherty: yello aries_liuxueyang
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2016-04-14T07:40:11Z DavidGuru: Hello :)
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2016-04-14T07:46:17Z DavidGuru: Any Chinese friends here?
2016-04-14T07:47:52Z Zhivago: How about Chinese enemies?
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2016-04-14T07:48:29Z Zhivago: Actually, what is a Chinese friend?
2016-04-14T07:49:17Z DavidGuru: Well, just asking whether there're some Lispers from China
2016-04-14T07:49:31Z Zhivago: I am from next door.
2016-04-14T07:49:55Z DavidGuru: OK, good for you
2016-04-14T07:50:21Z Zhivago: Indeed, it is good.
2016-04-14T07:51:46Z DavidGuru: I'm working with Dr. John Foderaro recently, really learn a lot from him
2016-04-14T07:51:54Z zRecursive: the next door means Japan ?
2016-04-14T07:51:59Z DavidGuru: People from Franz are great
2016-04-14T07:52:27Z loke is in Singapore. Close enough? :-)
2016-04-14T07:52:28Z Zhivago: Japan is next-next door.
2016-04-14T07:52:30Z zRecursive: Franz = France ?
2016-04-14T07:52:39Z DavidGuru: Franz Inc.
2016-04-14T07:52:45Z Zhivago: I am in Korea.
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2016-04-14T07:53:01Z loke: Zhivago: I had no idea you were in Korea
2016-04-14T07:53:12Z Zhivago: It isn't very interesting.
2016-04-14T07:53:17Z loke: Zhivago: I'
2016-04-14T07:53:24Z loke: Zhivago: I've been to Seoul a few times for work.
2016-04-14T07:53:27Z Zhivago: But, come visit some time. :)
2016-04-14T07:53:31Z Zhivago: Ah.
2016-04-14T07:53:39Z loke: Zhivago: I woul dhave, if I had known :-)
2016-04-14T07:54:02Z Zhivago: Our Chinese friends keep sending us atmospheric dust, but other than that, it is pretty good. :)
2016-04-14T07:54:35Z loke: Zhivago: Same with us and Indonesia
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2016-04-14T07:55:37Z DavidGuru: Hey, if I said something made you uncomfortable, I apologize; but what do you mean by 'atmospheric dust'.
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2016-04-14T07:56:03Z Zhivago: Hmm. In Chinese Characters, write "yellow" and "wind", perhaps?
2016-04-14T07:56:10Z zRecursive: Maybe it is north Korea sending you dust ?
2016-04-14T07:56:23Z loke: DavidGuru: Smog probably.
2016-04-14T07:56:31Z loke: About our similar problem: http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/environment/haze-in-singapore-a-problem-dating-back-40-years
2016-04-14T07:57:02Z Zhivago: I believe the worst comes from the expansion of the Gobi desert.
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2016-04-14T07:57:21Z Zhivago: David: We aren't uncomfortable. :)
2016-04-14T07:57:41Z DavidGuru: Well, that only happens in some certain cities, like Beijing or (sometimes) Shanghai
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2016-04-14T07:57:52Z aries_liuxueyang: DavidGuru: Yes, I am Chinese. :-)
2016-04-14T07:58:23Z DavidGuru: Nice to meet you here, aries
2016-04-14T07:58:39Z aries_liuxueyang: Nice to meet you
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2016-04-14T08:01:04Z DavidGuru: Anyone likes Allegro? Before I had a chance working with Franz engineers, I thought Allegro CL is too old and their license is kind of miserable, not that transparent like LispWorks
2016-04-14T08:01:23Z JuanDaugherty: 你好, 刘薛杨.
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2016-04-14T08:01:38Z JuanDaugherty is OK with it. Prefer sbcl.
2016-04-14T08:02:03Z JuanDaugherty: it's the main commercial cl igess
2016-04-14T08:02:04Z zRecursive: DavidGuru: know little about Franz, but we like to use SBCL.
2016-04-14T08:02:29Z DavidGuru: JuanDaugherty: yeah, SBCL has the best performance
2016-04-14T08:02:54Z aries_liuxueyang: JuanDaugherty: 哈哈，你是中國人呀
2016-04-14T08:03:12Z zRecursive: And SBCL seems to be the most actively developed impl ?
2016-04-14T08:03:16Z JuanDaugherty :)
2016-04-14T08:03:46Z JuanDaugherty: and no I'm not
2016-04-14T08:03:50Z DavidGuru: I thinks so, I mean, it's still evolving
2016-04-14T08:04:14Z aries_liuxueyang: You can type Chinese! Nice
2016-04-14T08:04:44Z zRecursive: Maybe it os Taiwan people ?
2016-04-14T08:04:51Z zRecursive: s/os/is
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2016-04-14T08:06:36Z aries_liuxueyang: you are?
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2016-04-14T08:06:55Z zRecursive: HK
2016-04-14T08:08:11Z aries_liuxueyang: Oh, I have a question, it's hard to explain and strange. I will upload it to YouTube. Anyone have time to explain it?
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2016-04-14T08:08:53Z Zhivago: Why youtube?
2016-04-14T08:09:17Z DavidGuru: I'm very close to HK, I work in Shenzhen for now
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2016-04-14T08:10:46Z Zhivago: I remember tortoise jelly from HK.
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2016-04-14T08:11:35Z DavidGuru: Yeah, that's delicious
2016-04-14T08:12:02Z DavidGuru: put that in the fridge when it's summer, so delicious
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2016-04-14T08:13:11Z aries_liuxueyang: Zhivago: Other recommends?
2016-04-14T08:13:20Z aries_liuxueyang: besides youtube
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2016-04-14T08:13:39Z Zhivago: How about paste.lisp.org?
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2016-04-14T08:14:22Z aries_liuxueyang: It can not be explained just by code.
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2016-04-14T08:14:46Z Zhivago: Does it require dancing and singing?
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2016-04-14T08:14:55Z DavidGuru: .......
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2016-04-14T08:15:52Z aries_liuxueyang: it requires evaluate some forms in minibuffer and compare the result
2016-04-14T08:15:54Z JuanDaugherty: aries_liuxueyang, go ahead and post your youtube url, someone will comment if they can
2016-04-14T08:16:27Z DavidGuru: exactly
2016-04-14T08:16:30Z aries_liuxueyang: JuanDaugherty: thank you.
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2016-04-14T08:16:37Z JuanDaugherty: it may take a bit but as you see this is a well populated channel
2016-04-14T08:17:16Z JuanDaugherty: it's also publicly logged and someone might comment later
2016-04-14T08:18:38Z Zhivago: I'd recommend pasting the text components instead -- but, good luck.
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2016-04-14T08:29:51Z aries_liuxueyang: well. I paste it here:
2016-04-14T08:29:52Z aries_liuxueyang: http://paste.lisp.org/+6PVM
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2016-04-14T08:35:01Z Zhivago: Try defvar instead of defparameter.
2016-04-14T08:35:06Z White_Flame: I get 3 printed, then the last form also returns 3
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2016-04-14T08:35:41Z Zhivago: defparameter will be reset if re-evaluated.
2016-04-14T08:35:49Z Zhivago: I guess your buffer is doing this sometimes.
2016-04-14T08:35:54Z White_Flame: every time you reload that file, or reevaluate the defparameter form, it'll set a new closure around the functions holding a count of 0
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2016-04-14T08:37:48Z DavidGuru: exactly
2016-04-14T08:40:21Z aries_liuxueyang: But why is the value returned by `(format t "~d" (funcall (first control-list)))` and `(increase-2)` is different?
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2016-04-14T08:41:00Z aries_liuxueyang: oh, not the return value. I mean the print result of the format form..
2016-04-14T08:41:01Z Zhivago: The guess is that the defparameter was re-evaluated between times by emacs.
2016-04-14T08:41:15Z Zhivago: What happens if you replace defparameter with defvar?
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2016-04-14T08:42:01Z aries_liuxueyang: I tried. the value printed and  the return value of`(increase-2)` is still different.
2016-04-14T08:43:07Z Zhivago: Add a print to each closure so that you can see a transcript of operatoins.
2016-04-14T08:44:04Z igam: FORMAT returns NIL when its first argument is not NIL.
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2016-04-14T08:45:17Z igam: you can use (format nil …) to get the string that would be output so you may compare it to the other result.
2016-04-14T08:46:23Z aries_liuxueyang: oh，i use lispy plugin, so I can see the output though I use (format t ..)
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2016-04-14T08:51:05Z aries_liuxueyang: I think it is the cause of some plugin I use. If I run the code in REPL, I can get the correct result.
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2016-04-14T08:54:42Z White_Flame: if it works in the repl, then yeah, your environment is screwing it up
2016-04-14T08:55:42Z aries_liuxueyang: it seems...
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2016-04-14T08:58:52Z aries_liuxueyang: so, I will not paste that YouTube url. Thank you all..
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2016-04-14T09:17:48Z kami: Good morning
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2016-04-14T09:37:40Z phoe_krk: hello kami
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2016-04-14T12:51:59Z Somelauw: How do I use a module like this one: http://weitz.de/chunga/ ? I can't find examples anywhere.
2016-04-14T12:52:27Z jdz: Somelauw: it is used in drakma
2016-04-14T12:52:46Z Xach: Somelauw: you would put it in the :depends-on list of your .asd file, then load your system, then call the chunga functions and use its objects.
2016-04-14T12:53:49Z Somelauw: Xach: Is an .asd file specific to sbcl?
2016-04-14T12:54:13Z Somelauw: Most tutorials talk about stuff like list processing and such first, not about practical tools.
2016-04-14T12:54:17Z Xach: Somelauw: no. it is a system definition file. it is processed by ASDF to load things in the right order.
2016-04-14T12:54:25Z Xach: Somelauw: Edi Weitz's book has some practical info.
2016-04-14T12:54:38Z igam: Somelauw: (ql:quickload :chunga) (use-package :chunga)
2016-04-14T12:56:16Z Somelauw: igam: I saw that one elsewhere, but it says: Package QL does not exist.
2016-04-14T12:56:45Z Xach: Somelauw: you do have to load quicklisp first to get the QL package in your environment.
2016-04-14T12:57:16Z Somelauw: Xach: and that is done in my .asd file too?
2016-04-14T12:57:17Z igam: Somelauw: fetch it from http://www.quicklisp.org/
2016-04-14T12:57:34Z igam: Somelauw: instructions on that web site, or on http://cliki.net/Getting+Started
2016-04-14T12:57:37Z Xach: Somelauw: no, it is done in your init file, usually. or you can load its setup file.
2016-04-14T12:59:27Z Somelauw: Xach: Is "Common Lisp recipes" by Edit Weitz book the one you recommend? Unfortunately it's not free.
2016-04-14T12:59:59Z Xach: Somelauw: That is the one I am referring to, yes. Many things that are not free are still worthwhile investments.
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2016-04-14T13:02:34Z igam: I would say, a few rare things that are not free are still worthwhile investments.
2016-04-14T13:02:46Z igam: I would be hard pressed to enumerate more than half a dozen of them…
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2016-04-14T13:03:20Z _death: food, water, electricity, clothes, apartment..
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2016-04-14T13:04:18Z Xach would add draw knife, axe, chisel, vise...
2016-04-14T13:05:11Z _death: pretty much nothing is free.. so it's interesting that you have only half a dozen things which you think are worthwhile
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2016-04-14T13:05:35Z igam: Nope. No worthwhile investment. Best proof: the state steals more than half of it when you die, after having tried all you life to steal them from you.
2016-04-14T13:05:40Z jackdaniel: even "free" resources cost time to build them
2016-04-14T13:05:48Z jdz: they also say that there's no such thing as a free lunch
2016-04-14T13:06:31Z igam: _death: they are spendings, costs. If you can do without them, you're much better off.
2016-04-14T13:06:33Z jackdaniel: not paying for free resoures produces bias towards producing non-free resources ;)
2016-04-14T13:06:34Z jdz: igam: what do you mean "steal from you" if there's no "you" any more?
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2016-04-14T13:06:58Z igam: jdz: there are children!  Or they were, until they started stealing children from you with the RU480.
2016-04-14T13:07:10Z jdz cannot help but notice the topic and ---------> this discussion here
2016-04-14T13:07:16Z igam: Sorry.
2016-04-14T13:07:32Z jdz: igam: your children are not you
2016-04-14T13:08:11Z jackdaniel: technically they are
2016-04-14T13:08:13Z jackdaniel: ;D
2016-04-14T13:08:28Z Somelauw: Xach: Would it be okay to use version 1.0-1 of cl-quicklisp from package manager?
2016-04-14T13:08:52Z Xach: Somelauw: I don't usually recommend that. Quicklisp is very easy to install directly.
2016-04-14T13:09:05Z Xach: Somelauw: if you have no other option, the package may be usable.
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2016-04-14T13:10:28Z igam: jdz: the point is that children are worthwhile investments.
2016-04-14T13:10:41Z jdz: it's just a curl 'http://random.internet.host/this-totally-installs-quicklisp.sh' | sudo sh
2016-04-14T13:10:48Z Xach: jdz: booo
2016-04-14T13:11:05Z igam: And you need more than one for them to be you: they are you to the proportion of 1-1/2^n with n = number of children.
2016-04-14T13:11:15Z Xach: https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp can be verified with https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp.asc
2016-04-14T13:11:25Z Xach: then you can load it with (load "quicklisp.lisp") and go from there
2016-04-14T13:12:39Z jdz: Xach: sorry, got carried away by offtopicness
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2016-04-14T13:13:49Z Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313485
2016-04-14T13:14:00Z Somelauw: Xach: i have it installed
2016-04-14T13:14:14Z Somelauw: thanks
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2016-04-14T13:14:20Z Xach: Somelauw: (ql:quickload "chunga") in the repl will load the chunga definitions
2016-04-14T13:14:28Z Xach: it will download prerequisites if needed
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2016-04-14T13:16:04Z dim: hi
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2016-04-14T13:21:09Z jdz: (my unsuccessful joke attempt was more about https://curlpipesh.tumblr.com, not about Quicklisp; Quicklisp is awesome!)
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2016-04-14T13:22:28Z Xach: jdz: it's ok, i made that joke at els last year too
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2016-04-14T13:31:01Z sjl: I have a macro that takes a &key (test #'eql) keyword argument.  when I eval it in sbcl it works fine, but when I try to compile the file (via quicklisp/asdf) it complains
2016-04-14T13:31:05Z sjl: > Objects of type FUNCTION can't be dumped into fasl files.
2016-04-14T13:31:05Z flip214: igam: only if viewed VERY long-term ;}
2016-04-14T13:31:34Z sjl: I can just use 'eql as the default instead (I pass it along to pushnew and pushnew is fine with getting the symbol)
2016-04-14T13:32:06Z sjl: but that seems kinda ugly, since it's going to deref that symbol every time now evn though I want it to just always refer to the eql fn
2016-04-14T13:32:13Z sjl: is this just something I have to live with?
2016-04-14T13:32:55Z Xach: sjl: funcalling a symbol can be faster than funcalling a function object.
2016-04-14T13:33:05Z igam: (test '#'eql)
2016-04-14T13:33:29Z flip214: sjl: if the symbol is just used like `(,fn ..args..) then the call to EQL will be compiled in anyway - perhaps even inlined.
2016-04-14T13:33:45Z igam: macro arguments are passed as if "quoted". when you specify an init value for a macro parameter, you should quote it explicitely to obtain the same effect.
2016-04-14T13:34:16Z sjl: Xach: that seems unintuitive, but I haven't profiled so I don't doubt it
2016-04-14T13:34:45Z Xach: sjl: I'm not sure if it's the case in SBCL, but Duane Rettig demonstrated a long time ago that it *could* be the case.
2016-04-14T13:34:48Z sjl: flip214: in this case it's passed along in a call to (pushnew ... :test ,test), so no luck there (although maybe pushnew does what you say)
2016-04-14T13:34:55Z Xach: sjl: he was using intimate knowledge of Allegro CL to explain.
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2016-04-14T13:35:22Z sjl: igam: Ahh, I see, that makes sense now that you mention it
2016-04-14T13:35:53Z sjl: when I actually pass (mymacro :test #'foo) the TEST argument has '#'foo in it, so the default should match that
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2016-04-14T13:37:15Z igam: It actually has a list containing CL:FUNCTION and FOO.  (CL:FUNCTION FOO)  So not '#'foo, since this is a list containing CL:QUOTE and a list: (CL:QUOTE (CL:FUNCTION FOO))
2016-04-14T13:37:18Z jdz: sjl: also you should be careful if you're using functions from packages other than :common-lisp, especially when developing, since your updates to the function will not affect the function in which the function value was captured
2016-04-14T13:37:37Z igam: sjl: in CL, we have to distinguish: IS, IS READ AS, and IS EVALUATED AS.
2016-04-14T13:38:21Z sjl: yes
2016-04-14T13:38:51Z sjl: jdz: in this case the default is cl:eql
2016-04-14T13:39:47Z jdz: right, i tried to caution against a case when it is not
2016-04-14T13:39:53Z sjl: yeah, that makes sense
2016-04-14T13:40:23Z sjl: all I wanted was a PUSHNEW that returns whether it actually pushed the thing
2016-04-14T13:40:25Z sjl: lol
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2016-04-14T13:41:48Z sjl: ended up with https://bitbucket.org/sjl/bones/src/9376531b5089d1ac442197f100865f968ad66163/src/utils.lisp?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default#utils.lisp-3
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2016-04-14T13:43:40Z Somelauw: so I understand that quicklisp is for repl and maybe for scripts and that asdf should be used for projects
2016-04-14T13:44:12Z Xach: Somelauw: quicklisp commands are meant for the repl, yes.
2016-04-14T13:44:29Z Somelauw: Xach: not even for scripts?
2016-04-14T13:44:35Z Xach: I don't like the notion of sticking quickload directly in source files - those things should be expressed by the system definition.
2016-04-14T13:44:55Z Xach: Somelauw: I'm undecided on scripts. I don't generally write 'em myself so I don't know the best workflow.
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2016-04-14T16:51:12Z gnome1: hello, I'm using SBCL on linux, and for some reason it seems that sb-sprof:with-profiling is hanging after it finishes evaluating the body. am I doing something wrong?
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2016-04-14T16:53:32Z gnome1: ... oh, there was some sbcl error, had to check *inferior-lisp*
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2016-04-14T17:04:33Z gnome1: and now I can't figure out how to restart slime :-D
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2016-04-14T19:31:09Z jurov: is there any *documented* common lisp coroutines library?
2016-04-14T19:31:53Z PuercoPop: sjl: I've been meaning to ask you about cl-nrepl, what would nrepl bring over swank? Have the middleware approach been useful for Clojure?
2016-04-14T19:31:58Z jurov: for example i'd like to know how it propagates conditions
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2016-04-14T19:38:43Z fe[nl]ix: jurov: don't use coroutines
2016-04-14T19:39:25Z jurov: orly
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2016-04-14T19:39:36Z jurov: is there something better?
2016-04-14T19:40:39Z dim: depends on what you want to do, I'm using lparallel for concurrency and parallelism
2016-04-14T19:41:31Z jurov: My problem is not concurrency, but callbacks from C. Currently i'm passing around closures and pulling my hair out.
2016-04-14T19:42:35Z jurov: like (set-callback (labda() (stuff-to-do-on-next-callback)))
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2016-04-14T19:45:40Z PuercoPop: jurov: You can check out the syntax provided by cl-async. You'll probably have to write your own macros but you'll get the idea
2016-04-14T19:46:04Z PuercoPop: (cl-async is for working with libuv so it is not of general use)
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2016-04-14T19:55:11Z jurov: PuercoPop: thanks, might be useful.. although I don't want it to replace whole event loop and manage timers and sockets and..
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2016-04-14T20:29:58Z PuercoPop: jurov: That is why I said look at the syntax for ideas. But I was wrongly presumming that blackbird, the promise implementation depended on cl-async as well. http://orthecreedence.github.io/blackbird/
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2016-04-14T20:34:18Z PuercoPop: |3b|: reading through your st port, nice work (albeit a little bit messy)
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2016-04-14T20:41:09Z sjl: PuercoPop: the middleware approach of nrepl is pretty nice, allows for a lot of flexibility to be bolted on later piece by piece
2016-04-14T20:41:23Z sjl: also it's (supposedly) language-independent
2016-04-14T20:41:38Z sjl: e.g. you can implement it in Clojure, or Lisp, or for Python, or whatever
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2016-04-14T20:42:26Z sjl: and the core of it is pretty simple.  unfortunately there's no clear spec, so you effectively have to source-dive the clojure implementation to figure out how it really works
2016-04-14T20:43:06Z sjl: but it was pretty easy to port over to CL, using fset's data structures to basically mimic the clojure implementation's approach
2016-04-14T20:43:25Z sjl: though I wrote that six months or so ago and the code is really not good.  I plan on getting back to it this summer after classes end
2016-04-14T20:43:53Z sjl: but I've been using it to develop in CL with the basic amenities (code eval, documentation, macroexpansion, arglists in the status bar, etc) for a couple months now
2016-04-14T20:44:21Z sjl: so as a proof of concept I'm pretty sure it's solid
2016-04-14T20:47:39Z PuercoPop: btw is the DOS line ending a conscious decision or just due to you writing the code in windows (presumably)
2016-04-14T20:48:14Z PuercoPop: sjl: I was under the impression that nrepl had a spec. I remember when learning clojure (before CL) I read through it.
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2016-04-14T20:48:46Z sjl: dos line endings?
2016-04-14T20:48:53Z sjl: I'm writing in vim on os x
2016-04-14T20:48:57Z PuercoPop: sorry that was meant for 3b
2016-04-14T20:49:01Z sjl: oh
2016-04-14T20:49:03Z sjl: hah
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2016-04-14T20:49:46Z sjl: PuercoPop: nrepl has the readme at https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl which kind of weaves in and out of "spec" and "implementation" details
2016-04-14T20:50:05Z sjl: as far as I know there's no detailed spec, but if you find one please tell me about it
2016-04-14T20:50:09Z sjl: it would save me a lot of pain
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2016-04-14T20:50:58Z PuercoPop: sjl: swank is also language-independent, but sexp-oriented. I guess that json is more language-independent these days. Anyhow I'll keep an eye on the project, going to checkout the (middleware?) that does macroexpansion
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2016-04-14T20:52:17Z sjl: PuercoPop: nrepl uses bencode, not json
2016-04-14T20:52:24Z sjl: well, the default transport uses bencode
2016-04-14T20:52:46Z sjl: https://bitbucket.org/sjl/cl-nrepl/src/b806d22cf6657ced5304511b7ea851c0d0676b33/src/middleware/macroexpand.lisp?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default
2016-04-14T20:52:51Z sjl: macroexpansion middleware
2016-04-14T20:52:56Z sjl: pretty basic but it does the job
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2016-04-14T20:54:19Z Bicyclidine: sjl: your need for pretty-string strikes me as possibly being caused by *print-pretty* bindings: ccl binds it nil at startup, sbcl binds it t
2016-04-14T20:54:31Z sjl: huh, that might be it
2016-04-14T20:55:43Z PuercoPop: sjl: that seems like the logic of it. So is there a different middleware for 'presentation details' (How is it rendered on the editor
2016-04-14T20:55:58Z Bicyclidine: so it might be (let ((*print-pretty* t)) (princ form))
2016-04-14T20:56:37Z Bicyclidine: or (write form :escape nil :readably nil :pretty t) i guess.
2016-04-14T20:56:47Z sjl: Bicyclidine: yeah that could work
2016-04-14T20:56:57Z Bicyclidine: princ-to-string and write-to-string, rather
2016-04-14T20:57:02Z sjl: PuercoPop: yeah this is the thing I've been trying to think about
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2016-04-14T20:57:35Z sjl: because all your data is sent through bencode, you have a pretty limited set of structures to work with
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2016-04-14T20:58:06Z sjl: so the question is, how much of the pretty printing do you delegate to the editor, and how much do you do in-middleware
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2016-04-14T20:59:03Z sjl: at one extreme, you just send over the readable sexp and the editor can format it however it likes
2016-04-14T20:59:45Z sjl: which is fine for lispy stuff... not sure how well that would play out with non-lisp languages though
2016-04-14T21:00:08Z sjl: e.g. for an arglist, in lisp that's just a list of symbols and lists, etc
2016-04-14T21:00:15Z sjl: but what is an arglist in python?
2016-04-14T21:00:43Z PuercoPop: I'm guessing different editors have different also different preferences of how to specify position.
2016-04-14T21:01:12Z sjl: yeah
2016-04-14T21:01:49Z sjl: and another annoying thing is that while this middleware stuff is touted as a big advantage of nrepl, in practice people just do shit by shoving a pile of code into `eval`: https://github.com/tpope/vim-fireplace/blob/master/autoload/fireplace/nrepl.vim#L42-L43
2016-04-14T21:02:01Z akkad: lol
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2016-04-14T21:02:41Z sjl: so in principle, if there's an nrepl client for Atom, and an nrepl server for common lisp, you should be able to edit CL code in atom and have most things
2016-04-14T21:02:47Z sjl: in practice, that ain't the case
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2016-04-14T21:05:11Z sjl: and I'm not convinced it should be.  different languages have different modes of working that feel natural, and trying to create one-mode-to-rule-them-all is probably not going to fit any of them really well
2016-04-14T21:05:27Z sjl: like what should java-nrepl's macroexpand middleware do?
2016-04-14T21:05:56Z PuercoPop: I'm guessing the idea is have different middleware's for different languagues and editors
2016-04-14T21:06:05Z sjl: yeah, I think that's the right approach
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2016-04-14T21:07:14Z sjl: instead of making slime-for-nrepl for your editor, you make just nrepl, with the barest essentials
2016-04-14T21:07:32Z sjl: and then someone implements vim-nrepl-cl or vim-nrepl-java or whatever
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2016-04-14T21:23:53Z PuercoPop: sjl: btw it is better to specify feature-dependent dependencies in the ASDF is to use (:feature :sbcl #:sb-instrospect) that way if the feature is loaded after the defsystem form was processed when the system is loaded it includes said dependency
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2016-04-14T21:52:29Z sjl: PuercoPop: hmm.  I need to learn more about the feature stuff.  when I was making this I just wanted it get something dirty up and running to dogfood it for a while to see if it was gonna be realiztic
2016-04-14T21:52:32Z sjl: *realistic
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2016-04-14T22:04:40Z PuercoPop: sjl: its ok, asdf is mostly cargo culted so it make sense that newer asdf features are not very well known. I was just letting you know in case someone reads your ADSF file so they can cargo cult from a better source :D
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2016-04-14T22:06:34Z sjl: haha fair enough
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2016-04-14T22:06:41Z sjl: I'm definitely still in the cargo culting stage for asdf
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2016-04-14T22:18:59Z _rpg``: PuercoPop, sjl: there /is/ an ASDF manual....
2016-04-14T22:19:34Z sjl: this? https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/
2016-04-14T22:19:45Z sjl: I should read that when I have some time this summer
2016-04-14T22:20:21Z sjl: so far I have gotten by with "just use quicklisp" but I should definitely read up on asdf
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2016-04-14T22:21:13Z PuercoPop: _rpg``: I didn't mean to imply that people cargo culted due to lack of documentation. I find the grammar definition super useful for when forgetting syntax
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2016-04-14T22:25:59Z _rpg``: people cargo cult because they can...
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2016-04-14T22:51:46Z |3b|: PuercoPop: yeah, it was pretty much just a straight transcription of the C code without actually taking time to figure out how it worked first... just wanted something mindless to do while i was sick at one point, and haven't gotten around to cleaning it up yet
2016-04-14T22:53:24Z |3b|: PuercoPop: only put it on a public repo since someone on another channel was interested in it :)
2016-04-14T22:53:32Z PuercoPop: |3b|: I've found ensure-value is unused and probably never worked (it calls seft and zero). Is that the code you used for the 'terminalception' video?
2016-04-14T22:53:49Z PuercoPop: there is probably more than oen personal interested :D
2016-04-14T22:53:57Z |3b|: not sure if i've made any videos using that code yet
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2016-04-14T22:54:18Z PuercoPop: |3b|: I'm talking about this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbY-meOL57I
2016-04-14T22:54:18Z |3b|: originally i was using x extensions to just grab a whole window as a bitmap
2016-04-14T22:54:40Z |3b|: yeah, that looks like the old bitmap version
2016-04-14T22:55:25Z |3b| wanted a terminal emulator for more control over the font rendering, but was on windows by the time i got the terminal working and windows emacs doesn't support terminals :(
2016-04-14T22:56:58Z |3b|: no idea on the crlf, might have been copied from C, or might be from working on windows
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2016-04-14T23:15:54Z Somelauw: what would be the easiest way to split a string? I found asdf:split-string, but that function is not external. ql-util:split-spaces exists but is undocumented and doesn't let me specify the delimiter.
2016-04-14T23:16:30Z |3b|: split-sequence:split-sequence ?
2016-04-14T23:16:46Z gnome1: is "(with-compilation-unit (:policy '(optimize speed)) (load ...))" supposed to be the generic "optimize for speed"?
2016-04-14T23:16:53Z |3b|: strings are vectors are sequences
2016-04-14T23:18:04Z Somelauw: I couldn't find a split-sequence function in the docs: http://lispdoc.com/?q=split-sequence&search=Basic+search
2016-04-14T23:18:05Z |3b|: gnome1: :policy isn't specified by CL as an argument for with-compilation-unit, so probably only works on some specific implementation
2016-04-14T23:19:02Z gnome1: ah, SBCL here, and I can expect other users to use SBCL
2016-04-14T23:19:04Z |3b|: Somelauw: should be in quicklisp
2016-04-14T23:19:10Z gnome1: does that look good for SBCL?
2016-04-14T23:19:34Z gnome1 has not had the chance to play with lisp as much as he would like...
2016-04-14T23:19:37Z Somelauw: can i see the documentation for a function from within quicklisp / repl?
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2016-04-14T23:20:30Z _rpg``: cl-ppcre has a split, too.
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2016-04-14T23:20:44Z |3b|: (describe 'split-sequence:split-sequence) at repl might tell you about it after loading it
2016-04-14T23:21:20Z |3b|: or C-c C-d C-d in slime for same info in a separate window
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2016-04-14T23:22:51Z |3b|: also, asdf::split-string is probably uiop:split-string
2016-04-14T23:23:56Z Somelauw: emacs/slime is still too advanced for me, so I'm running sbcl in a terminal
2016-04-14T23:25:34Z Somelauw: |3b|: uiop works, although it is not obvious to me how asdf and uiop are the same thing
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2016-04-14T23:25:51Z |3b|: uiop is a utility library used by asdf
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2016-04-14T23:26:55Z |3b|: when defining a package you can import symbols from another package so you can use them without explicitly specifying the other package
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2016-04-14T23:27:32Z |3b|: same way DEFUN is usually CL:DEFUN, but you don't need to type CL: because you generally work in a package that :USEs the CL package
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2016-04-14T23:33:53Z Somelauw: ok, thanks
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2016-04-15T01:59:59Z Bike: .note drmeister do you have a resource for learning llvm? the language docs are comprehensive but not the actual functions, and the most helpful thing i can find is kaleidoscope
2016-04-15T02:00:02Z Bike: er.
2016-04-15T02:00:08Z Bike: minion: memo for drmeister do you have a resource for learning llvm? the language docs are comprehensive but not the actual functions, and the most helpful thing i can find is kaleidoscope
2016-04-15T02:00:08Z minion: memo for drmeister do you have a resource for learning llvm? the language docs are comprehensive but not the actual functions, and the most helpful thing i can find is kaleidoscope: An error was encountered in lookup: Parse error:URI "http://www.cliki.net/memo%20for%20drmeister%20do%20you%20have%20a%20resource%20for%20learning%20llvm?%20the%20language%20docs%20are%20comprehensive%20but%20not%20the%20actual%20functions%2C%20and%20the%20most%20helpful%20thing%2
2016-04-15T02:00:18Z Bike: minion: memo for drmeister: do you have a resource for learning llvm? the language docs are comprehensive but not the actual functions, and the most helpful thing i can find is kaleidoscope
2016-04-15T02:00:18Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell drmeister when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-04-15T03:10:08Z mordocai: I want two queues that will hold a bunch of strings and be modified by two threads. High performance would be ideal and I only need sbcl/linux support for now though cross platform is a plus. What libraries should I take a look at? I figure I'll use bourdeux threads for the threads.
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2016-04-15T03:13:20Z DavidGuru: http://www.cliki.net/lparallel, https://lparallel.org
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2016-04-15T03:19:19Z mordocai: Looks cool thanks DavidGuru
2016-04-15T03:22:12Z DavidGuru: mordocai: No problem :) Weitz wrote a chapter in his new book "Common Lisp Recipes", which mention about lparallel and a lot of ideas about concurrency stuff in CL
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2016-04-15T03:26:39Z zRecursive: DavidGuru: That book has been published ?
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2016-04-15T03:26:56Z DavidGuru: Yeah of course
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2016-04-15T03:27:39Z zRecursive: I will searching its electronic version better for kindle
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2016-04-15T03:29:18Z DavidGuru: When I purchased that on apress.com, there's only PDF version
2016-04-15T03:29:46Z zRecursive: PDF can be converted to kindle format
2016-04-15T03:29:48Z DavidGuru: Maybe they have a mobi format now
2016-04-15T03:29:58Z mordocai: DavidGuru: Oh cool, I own that book actually.
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2016-04-15T03:30:28Z mordocai: I'm starting a MUD client for aetolia.com.
2016-04-15T03:30:47Z zRecursive: http://weitz.de/cl-recipes/
2016-04-15T03:31:05Z DavidGuru: Yeah but when it's converted, sometimes the format is corrupted
2016-04-15T03:31:24Z zRecursive: especially picture
2016-04-15T03:31:36Z DavidGuru: mordocai: great :) that chapter may be #11 or #10
2016-04-15T03:31:50Z DavidGuru: zRecursive: exactly
2016-04-15T03:32:18Z mordocai: So my plan is to have a "communication thread" that has the telnet connection and talks to the other thread via a read queue and a write queue
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2016-04-15T03:33:23Z DavidGuru: cool
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2016-04-15T03:34:03Z mordocai: DavidGuru: SO yeah, chapter #11
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2016-04-15T03:34:44Z PuercoPop: mordocai: have you seen a the mud server in CL? Is your mud client designed for automation?
2016-04-15T03:35:35Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Well, I don't need a server portion (except maybe a dummy server for automated tests) since I'll be talking to a pre-established MUD. I'm just now starting it, but yes it will be designed for automation
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2016-04-15T03:44:02Z PuercoPop: mordocai: Nice, I'll look forward to it
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2016-04-15T03:45:29Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Super skeleton since I haven't even gotten any working code but it'll live here: https://gitlab.com/mordocai/muddy-alien
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2016-04-15T03:53:26Z PuercoPop: thanks, too bad there is no 'watch' in gitlab
2016-04-15T03:55:37Z mordocai: PuercoPop: I think there is. On the project page the little bell looking icon seems to have that functionality?
2016-04-15T03:55:49Z mordocai: Haven't ever played with it though
2016-04-15T03:58:05Z PuercoPop: mordocai: it is only follow issues not commits.
2016-04-15T03:58:31Z mordocai: PuercoPop: Ah okay.
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2016-04-15T07:38:56Z varjagg: how one does asdf subprojects properly?
2016-04-15T07:39:18Z varjagg: e.g. core system + several examples in subdirs
2016-04-15T07:39:53Z jackdaniel: varjagg: this should do OK, asdf traverses subtrees. That said I've often seen all the asd systems in the toplevel directory defining components in the subdirs
2016-04-15T07:40:03Z jackdaniel: ie. one asd file for 10 example systems
2016-04-15T07:40:25Z varjagg: so i just drop an .asd there and make it a dependency on parent project?
2016-04-15T07:40:28Z jackdaniel: and the second one for the actual system definition
2016-04-15T07:40:33Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-04-15T07:40:39Z varjagg: cool thanks
2016-04-15T07:40:47Z jackdaniel: disclaimer: if I'm wrong, don't beat me ;)
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2016-04-15T07:41:27Z varjagg: :p
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2016-04-15T08:36:14Z varjagg: hmm but it's not being found via ql:quickload then
2016-04-15T08:36:27Z varjagg: maybe that's the reason for top level asds
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2016-04-15T08:41:35Z jackdaniel: varjagg: you may try to load a system (with toplevel asd file) with quicklisp (it's designed for it), and load the subsystem with asdf:load-system
2016-04-15T08:41:54Z varjagg: yep
2016-04-15T08:41:57Z |3b|: i think searching subdirectories is a configuration option, and not default
2016-04-15T08:42:27Z |3b|: quicklisp just uses asdf to load things
2016-04-15T08:42:50Z |3b|: all it adds is automatic downloading when that fails, and telling asdf how to find things in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/
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2016-04-15T08:46:34Z varjagg: quicklisp won't load any toplevel system def though, it has to match the project directory name?
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2016-04-15T08:48:31Z jackdaniel: varjagg: how asdf:load-system for the subsystems works?
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2016-04-15T08:53:15Z |3b|: quicklisp will load any asd file asdf knows how to find, there are lots of ways asdf can be told how to find asd files, including 1 level deep or full recursive directory search
2016-04-15T08:53:25Z varjagg: good question because it doesn't now
2016-04-15T08:53:30Z varjagg: i botched up somewhere
2016-04-15T08:54:28Z varjagg: i can load subprojects from dists still via quicklisp, e.g. (ql:quickload :babel-tests) works right away
2016-04-15T08:54:30Z |3b|: full recursive search can be bad, both due to performance considerations when there are lots of subdirectories on slow media, and also due to possibly matching things inside of version control subdirectories
2016-04-15T08:55:05Z jackdaniel: varjagg: test system is often defined in the same file as the main system
2016-04-15T08:55:11Z jackdaniel: that may be a case here
2016-04-15T08:55:29Z varjagg: no it has own asd
2016-04-15T08:55:50Z jackdaniel: uhm
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2016-04-15T09:07:27Z varjagg: on a different error now, but (ql:register-local-projects) did the magic
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2016-04-15T09:43:16Z elderK: Hey guys, I was wondering what Unicode support is like in CL, in general?
2016-04-15T09:43:23Z elderK: Like, do we have to implement support ourselves?
2016-04-15T09:44:49Z jackdaniel: elderK: the support is quite good. I know for sure that at least SBCL, CCL and ECL has complete support, but I suspect the others support it too
2016-04-15T09:44:59Z jackdaniel: it's not a part of the standard though
2016-04-15T09:45:39Z elderK nods
2016-04-15T09:45:47Z elderK: Other questions revolve around threading support, how widespread is it?
2016-04-15T09:45:54Z jackdaniel: elderK: there is also cl-unicode jackdaniel: Thinking about it I guess it really depends. You are right, it
2016-04-15T09:46:01Z jackdaniel: ops, not this
2016-04-15T09:46:08Z elderK: And what would be some good projects to look at, like, to act as a role-model as it were.
2016-04-15T09:46:09Z jackdaniel: there is also cl-unicode: http://weitz.de/cl-unicode/
2016-04-15T09:46:19Z elderK: I took a peek at CL Unicode last night.
2016-04-15T09:46:32Z jackdaniel: about threads, almost all (if not all) implementations support threads
2016-04-15T09:46:40Z elderK: Every so often I go through these spells where I hate all languages excepting Lisp.
2016-04-15T09:46:43Z jackdaniel: use bordeaux-threads, which provides nice portability abstraction
2016-04-15T09:46:45Z elderK: Even though I've never done naything serious using Lisp.
2016-04-15T09:47:11Z elderK: I really wish there was a C-like Lisp :P
2016-04-15T09:47:20Z elderK: Like, a super-minimal Lisp.
2016-04-15T09:47:26Z jackdaniel: elderK: in ECL you may easily intermix C and CL
2016-04-15T09:47:27Z elderK: OH yeah.
2016-04-15T09:47:40Z jackdaniel: 11:47 < elderK> And what would be some good projects to look at, like, to act as a role-model as it were.
2016-04-15T09:47:43Z elderK: What's the unit testing framework most use?
2016-04-15T09:47:43Z jackdaniel: could you rephrase?
2016-04-15T09:48:00Z jackdaniel: 5am, stefil, there is also rt (which originates on MIT). Probably more
2016-04-15T09:48:18Z elderK: I was wondering what projects I should look at as an example of good Lisp, good CLOS, etc.
2016-04-15T09:48:20Z jackdaniel: s/on/from/
2016-04-15T09:48:22Z elderK: idiomatic, etc.
2016-04-15T09:48:37Z jdz: i've recently learned that there's also 1am
2016-04-15T09:48:41Z jackdaniel doesn't know what word idiomatic means. Many people say, that cl-ppcre is brilliant code to study
2016-04-15T09:48:42Z jdz: and prove
2016-04-15T09:49:24Z elderK: idiomatic means adheres to best practices - i.e. uses the common idioms.
2016-04-15T09:49:27Z elderK: The Lisp way of doing things.
2016-04-15T09:50:42Z jackdaniel: there isn't imo :)
2016-04-15T09:51:12Z jackdaniel: but many CL'ers praise CLOS as the right way to do things
2016-04-15T09:51:39Z elderK: It's like, I want to write my own JSON parser and stuff.
2016-04-15T09:51:40Z jackdaniel: also Edi Weitz wrote a book recently "Common Lisp Recipes"
2016-04-15T09:51:43Z elderK: I know there are many available for CL.
2016-04-15T09:51:53Z jackdaniel: so I think this book may be interestingfor you
2016-04-15T09:52:00Z elderK: But I'm afraid the ways I normally do things won't apply to Lisp.
2016-04-15T09:52:14Z elderK: (In C, my JSON parser is nothing but a giant DFA)
2016-04-15T09:52:28Z jackdaniel: elderK: writing your own JSON parser isn't the "right way", because you'll write something what is already written
2016-04-15T09:52:37Z elderK: That doesn't bother me.
2016-04-15T09:52:38Z jackdaniel: (and again, and again) – waste of time imho :)
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2016-04-15T09:52:43Z elderK: As long as it means I learn something
2016-04-15T09:53:07Z jackdaniel: http://cliki.net/JSON
2016-04-15T09:53:10Z elderK: I.e. With parsers, usually I create a bunch of states and the parse function does nothing but walk the automata.
2016-04-15T09:53:13Z elderK: Been there :P
2016-04-15T09:53:37Z ralt: elderK: parsers are usually the same across languages, that's not a great example to find out idioms
2016-04-15T09:53:45Z jackdaniel: this is really good read: http://lisper.in/reader-macros/
2016-04-15T09:54:18Z elderK: ralt: Where shall I look? :)
2016-04-15T09:54:23Z elderK: I'd like to see how state machines are done in CL.
2016-04-15T09:54:32Z elderK: I know there's cond and case and all that.
2016-04-15T09:54:40Z jackdaniel: elderK: my advice – find some project which needs some maintaing and start fixing stuff. If it has other developers, you'll get peer review for free + you'll do something good
2016-04-15T09:54:52Z jackdaniel: and you'll learn in a fast pae
2016-04-15T09:54:55Z jackdaniel: s/pae/pace/
2016-04-15T09:55:56Z jackdaniel: s/some project/a projects/ , s/some maintaining/maintaining/
2016-04-15T09:56:03Z elderK: :P All good dude.
2016-04-15T09:56:59Z dim: elderK: here's an example of a state machine in CL, its goal is to parse SQL files and return a list of SQL queries (as strings): https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/blob/master/src/utils/read-sql-files.lisp
2016-04-15T09:57:22Z loke: elderK: DFA? Department of foreign affairs? http://www.dfa.gov.ph/
2016-04-15T09:57:55Z dim: it knows how to parse this one:   select E'\\';' as ";";   ;-)
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2016-04-15T09:58:58Z dim: select E'\';' as ";"; actually, I missed removal of some \ before
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2016-04-15T09:59:37Z commonlisp_win: Hi.How to use evaltrace properlly cant figure out.Thanks.:)
2016-04-15T09:59:43Z dim: the result of that PostgreSQL query being the value "';" of a column named ";"
2016-04-15T09:59:45Z dim: anyway
2016-04-15T10:00:49Z elderK: The other thing I'd like to learn about is debugging in Lisp.
2016-04-15T10:00:56Z elderK: Like, breakpoints and the like
2016-04-15T10:01:09Z elderK: I understand that part of htat is learning how to use SLIME/SlimV?
2016-04-15T10:01:54Z dim: read http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ and following
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2016-04-15T10:05:24Z jdz: TRACE, and implementations' extensions to it is amazing
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2016-04-15T10:11:48Z elderK: I'd love to know what kind of things people use Lisp for nowadays.
2016-04-15T10:13:56Z loke: elderK: Well, we are happily using it for this:
2016-04-15T10:14:06Z loke: https://github.com/cicakhq/potato
2016-04-15T10:14:19Z loke: You're welcome to test it: https://potato.network/
2016-04-15T10:14:22Z loke: oh wait
2016-04-15T10:14:29Z loke: https://potato.dhsdevelopments.com/
2016-04-15T10:15:19Z elderK: so, server-side web-stuff?
2016-04-15T10:15:50Z commonlisp_win: How would trace or evaltrace a variable name
2016-04-15T10:16:31Z commonlisp_win: http://paste.lisp.org/+6PXX
2016-04-15T10:18:03Z loke: elderK: Yes
2016-04-15T10:19:20Z commonlisp_win: I wish to trace anum
2016-04-15T10:19:31Z commonlisp_win: Want to see evaulation step
2016-04-15T10:19:40Z jdz: commonlisp_win: tracing is not the same as stepping
2016-04-15T10:19:56Z jdz: commonlisp_win: also, why does the function have arguments if they are not used?
2016-04-15T10:19:58Z commonlisp_win: Sorry still new to this
2016-04-15T10:20:07Z commonlisp_win: learning about setf :P
2016-04-15T10:20:41Z jdz: if you remove the SETFs, and do (trace anum) you'll see with what values it is invoked and what it returns
2016-04-15T10:20:48Z commonlisp_win: I will eliminate the setf
2016-04-15T10:21:09Z jdz: yes, annihilate them!
2016-04-15T10:21:32Z commonlisp_win: CL-USER> (anum 31 22)   0: (ANUM 31 22)   0: ANUM returned (AVERAGE IS 26.5) (AVERAGE IS 26.5)
2016-04-15T10:21:42Z jdz: great success!
2016-04-15T10:21:48Z commonlisp_win: Is ther any more indepth
2016-04-15T10:21:55Z commonlisp_win: step by step
2016-04-15T10:22:03Z commonlisp_win: and what is evaltrace ussed
2016-04-15T10:22:22Z jdz: i have no idea what this "evaltrace" you keep mentioning is
2016-04-15T10:22:54Z commonlisp_win: when i go in the relp in emac slime write down evalt and press tab there is evaltrace
2016-04-15T10:23:40Z loke: commonlisp_win: What CL implmenetation are you using?
2016-04-15T10:23:45Z commonlisp_win: sbcl
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2016-04-15T10:25:01Z commonlisp_win: Actually what im interested is more indepth steps to be displayed
2016-04-15T10:25:12Z commonlisp_win: more stuff on the screen :P
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2016-04-15T10:28:39Z commonlisp_win: Any idea about a more indepth evaluation step process
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2016-04-15T10:32:04Z jdz: commonlisp_win: there's support for stepping in Slime with SBCL, but i cannot tell you more since i've not used it
2016-04-15T10:32:27Z jdz: commonlisp_win: also commercial implementations have GUI steppers
2016-04-15T10:33:11Z commonlisp_win: Ah ok. Thank you for your help jdz, appreciate it.:)
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2016-04-15T10:34:45Z jdz: i've found the best debugging tool is understanding the code by looking at it and thinking
2016-04-15T10:35:31Z jdz: and when that's not quite enough then TRACE comes in very handy
2016-04-15T10:36:22Z jdz: it's actually better than stepping because implementations support adding conditions for when to actually activate the tracing
2016-04-15T10:37:02Z jdz: very useful if something happens only occasionally and one has to wait hours for a bad condition to occur
2016-04-15T10:37:08Z elderK: jdz: I'm biased by use of languages such as C/C++ but man, single stepping can be so useful...
2016-04-15T10:37:17Z elderK: Then again,
2016-04-15T10:37:22Z jdz: yes, i agree
2016-04-15T10:37:40Z elderK: Functions and stuff can't reall ybe composed in the same way as they can in Lisp.
2016-04-15T10:37:54Z elderK: Although C++ is getting closer to approaching it nowadays.
2016-04-15T10:38:08Z elderK: (It's version of closures, etc, is still a joke compared to Scheme/CL though :))
2016-04-15T10:38:58Z elderK: Man. It's so strange.
2016-04-15T10:39:05Z elderK: I want so badly to use CL as my "main go-to langugage!"
2016-04-15T10:39:13Z elderK: But at the same time, I have this feeling of deep resistance.
2016-04-15T10:39:21Z elderK: Not due to fear of learning - learning is cool.
2016-04-15T10:39:30Z dim: just use it in a real (small) project and see what happens
2016-04-15T10:39:35Z elderK: But because the world that Lisp has to run on, is far less pure than Lisp.
2016-04-15T10:39:52Z jackdaniel: pure?
2016-04-15T10:39:55Z Zhivago: CL is somewhat shabby, these days.
2016-04-15T10:40:03Z elderK: Like...
2016-04-15T10:40:12Z elderK: Virtually every language can talk to C libraries, etc.
2016-04-15T10:40:13Z Zhivago: But there are alternatives like racket, clojure, etc.
2016-04-15T10:40:20Z elderK: The C ABI is damn near the lingua franca.
2016-04-15T10:40:26Z Zhivago: CL has FFIs.
2016-04-15T10:40:29Z elderK: Yes, I know.
2016-04-15T10:40:32Z elderK: I'm quite familiar with CFFI :)
2016-04-15T10:40:45Z ascii-soup: Zhivago: I was under the impression racket was a kind-of "toy" Lisp - have I been misled?
2016-04-15T10:40:52Z elderK: Racket is not a toy.
2016-04-15T10:41:02Z elderK: I don't use it - but I know that much :)
2016-04-15T10:41:14Z jackdaniel: racket is a very capable programming language
2016-04-15T10:41:14Z elderK: I liked it better when it was just good ol' PLT Scheme :
2016-04-15T10:41:24Z ascii-soup: I like Lisp, but I find Common Lisp a bit ... archaic feeling
2016-04-15T10:41:34Z elderK: I prefer Scheme.
2016-04-15T10:41:37Z jackdaniel: check the cl21 if you're into that stuff
2016-04-15T10:41:39Z elderK: But Scheme doesn't have CLOS :)
2016-04-15T10:41:44Z ascii-soup: I'd like to work in Clojure, but the JVM is a pain for our setup
2016-04-15T10:41:52Z Zhivago: Racket has several dialects, some are toyish, others are more capable.
2016-04-15T10:41:52Z elderK: Nor does Scheme really have threads...
2016-04-15T10:41:57Z djh: Whatever happened to the "MOP for Scheme" concept? :)
2016-04-15T10:42:05Z Zhivago: Neither does CL have threads, for that matter. :)
2016-04-15T10:42:06Z ascii-soup: Anybody used the Lisp on Erlang thingy?
2016-04-15T10:42:10Z elderK: Zhivago: Really?
2016-04-15T10:42:12Z Zhivago: There is tinyclos for scheme.
2016-04-15T10:42:17Z Zhivago: Not in the standard.
2016-04-15T10:42:19Z elderK: Why is threading such an issue with Lisps?
2016-04-15T10:42:23Z elderK: I mean, GC, sure.
2016-04-15T10:42:32Z elderK: But then C# and Java have GCs...
2016-04-15T10:42:38Z jdz: elderK: which lisps have issues with threading?
2016-04-15T10:42:41Z elderK: Well.
2016-04-15T10:42:50Z elderK: I know of Bordeux Threads?
2016-04-15T10:42:53Z elderK: (spelling...)
2016-04-15T10:43:16Z elderK: I mean threads aren't in C89/99 either. So, I guess that's no different....
2016-04-15T10:43:17Z jackdaniel: elderK: you have to separate concepts of the language standard, implementation-specific extensions and the portability libraries
2016-04-15T10:43:33Z elderK: Good point.
2016-04-15T10:43:44Z jackdaniel: many scheme implementations has threading support, but it's not in the standard (just like in CL)
2016-04-15T10:44:04Z Zhivago: elder: They are for posix C. :)
2016-04-15T10:44:25Z elderK: Zhivago: Aye. C(++)?11 helps bring standard stuff to the table.
2016-04-15T10:44:34Z elderK: And if you're on Windows, you can always use the Win32 API direct.
2016-04-15T10:44:40Z elderK: I guess that's one thing that worries me.
2016-04-15T10:44:40Z Zhivago: Mostly that provides the primitives required for implementing things like pthreads portably.
2016-04-15T10:44:49Z elderK: Like
2016-04-15T10:44:51Z Zhivago: Memory barriers and the like.
2016-04-15T10:44:54Z elderK: Yeah.
2016-04-15T10:45:13Z elderK: AFAIk, unless your Lisp implementation of choice doesn't have extenions for threading, you're screwed.
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2016-04-15T10:48:46Z loke: The only CL without properly working threads is CLISP, isn't it?
2016-04-15T10:48:48Z ascii-soup: Guys, Racket looks to be really interesting - thanks for correcting me :)
2016-04-15T10:48:57Z Zhivago: Hmm, I think clisp has threads, at least experimentally.
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2016-04-15T10:53:03Z djh: Racket was really helpful for the SICP bit about picture-handling, but oddly couldn't cope with the metacirc parts so I had to go back to GNU scheme
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2016-04-15T11:03:47Z elderK: djh:
2016-04-15T11:03:52Z elderK: I've always preferred Chicken :)
2016-04-15T11:03:58Z elderK: Mostly because the community is just so awesome.
2016-04-15T11:04:14Z elderK: The people of Chicken really are the major pull. Technically, it's sweet too.
2016-04-15T11:04:15Z elderK: :)
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2016-04-15T11:05:19Z djh: ..do Lisp people ever worry that there might be too much choice for people who want to learn Lisp? :)
2016-04-15T11:06:17Z Zhivago: Yes.
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2016-04-15T11:07:55Z elderK: Yes.
2016-04-15T11:08:10Z elderK: That was a major issue for me when I started learning Scheme back in 2k8.
2016-04-15T11:08:20Z elderK: :) Amazing how fast the years have past.
2016-04-15T11:08:47Z elderK: As for Lisp, I started with ECL then migrated to SBCL as ECL didn't play nicely with SlimV.
2016-04-15T11:09:16Z Zhivago: But almost every "do people ever ..." question has that answer.
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2016-04-15T11:11:04Z elderK: :P That's ture.
2016-04-15T11:11:12Z elderK: "Do people ever have discos with their kittens?"
2016-04-15T11:11:14Z elderK: "Yes"
2016-04-15T11:11:15Z elderK: :P
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2016-04-15T11:11:45Z djh: I started with Clisp because Land of Lisp.. I'm working through SICP at the moment, so scheme. I'll come back to CL for PAIP and On Lisp.. but I quite like a lot of scheme, so not sure whether I'll stick with CL longterm.
2016-04-15T11:11:59Z djh: #lispworldproblems :)
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2016-04-15T11:12:08Z elderK: djh: I prefer Scheme.
2016-04-15T11:12:16Z elderK: I like its consistency across naming, etc.
2016-04-15T11:12:20Z splittist: One of the 'people' who worried about the choice of lisps was DARPA: hence Common Lisp.
2016-04-15T11:12:24Z elderK: I love how minimal it is.
2016-04-15T11:12:29Z elderK: But, in a way,
2016-04-15T11:12:31Z elderK: it's like C vs C++.
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2016-04-15T11:12:36Z Zhivago: That's true -- it isn't a syncretic abomination.
2016-04-15T11:12:38Z elderK: CL wasn't designed to be minimal like Scheme.
2016-04-15T11:12:49Z Zhivago: On the other hand, scheme isn't that minimal, these days.
2016-04-15T11:12:58Z elderK: That's true.
2016-04-15T11:13:01Z djh: I like scheme in a lot of ways, it seems "cleaner". But I have a naggingsuspicion that the warts in CL match the warts of rality and thus it's easier to Get Stuff Done with
2016-04-15T11:13:13Z elderK: for a programming language, it's still pretty minimal if you consider r5rs/r7rs.
2016-04-15T11:13:13Z djh: wow, my typing sucks today :(
2016-04-15T11:13:35Z elderK: Not so much if you bring in the various SRFIs.
2016-04-15T11:13:36Z elderK: :P
2016-04-15T11:14:49Z elderK: Zhivago: What do you see as not so minimal? :)
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2016-04-15T11:17:40Z jackdaniel: well, C is much smaller language than scheme for instance
2016-04-15T11:17:54Z Zhivago: I would disagree.
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2016-04-15T11:18:19Z Zhivago: But that may be due to knowing C and scheme well. :)
2016-04-15T11:18:35Z Zhivago: Consider the complexity of C's memory model.
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2016-04-15T11:19:53Z jackdaniel: hm, I don't feel certain enough to argue :)
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2016-04-15T11:20:19Z elderK: Scheme is a far simpler language than C, in many ways.
2016-04-15T11:20:24Z elderK: And it is by far more minimal.
2016-04-15T11:20:41Z elderK: jackdaniel: Remember the C Standard Library's part of the standard.
2016-04-15T11:20:47Z elderK: And like Zhivago, memory model.
2016-04-15T11:20:57Z elderK: Sure, C doens't have closures, etc, etc.
2016-04-15T11:21:13Z elderK: But if you're masochistic enough, you can create things that are LIKE closures :D
2016-04-15T11:21:50Z jackdaniel: you can write OO code in assembly – power of expressiveness is not a question here
2016-04-15T11:22:02Z elderK: True and okay :)
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2016-04-15T11:22:32Z jackdaniel: as I said, I don't feel profound in both scheme and C to argue, just expressed my impression after using these languages
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2016-04-15T11:22:54Z elderK: Well, I'd still be interested in your rationale, even if you aren't a guru in either :)
2016-04-15T11:22:57Z elderK: It's still interesting :)
2016-04-15T11:23:16Z elderK: God knows you have infinitely more experience in CL than I :P
2016-04-15T11:23:20Z elderK: :)
2016-04-15T11:25:10Z jackdaniel: well, C has a few simple concepts (from the programmer point of view) – like variables, functions, structures, pointers etc
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2016-04-15T11:25:34Z jackdaniel: scheme has all this, plus closures, continuations, lexical scoping
2016-04-15T11:26:14Z jackdaniel: (and macros of course)
2016-04-15T11:26:25Z jackdaniel: end. whole rationale from my side.
2016-04-15T11:26:58Z z0d: so you're talking about the user-end of the language
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2016-04-15T11:27:06Z jackdaniel: of course I do
2016-04-15T11:27:18Z elderK: Scheme doesn't really have pointers :)
2016-04-15T11:27:34Z jackdaniel: fwiw almost everything in lisp is a pointer
2016-04-15T11:27:37Z elderK: And you can argue that functions are closures
2016-04-15T11:27:44Z elderK: Yes but that's a technical thing.
2016-04-15T11:27:48Z elderK: That's not a user-exposed thing per se.
2016-04-15T11:27:51Z elderK: Everything is a reference.
2016-04-15T11:28:01Z elderK: Where as in C, you have the difference between stack allocated and heap allocated.
2016-04-15T11:28:16Z elderK: Not to mention total freedom of where you can point and how you can interpret the data that you'r epointing at.
2016-04-15T11:28:36Z elderK: That simply doesn't exist in Scheme unless you're using FFIs or extensions.
2016-04-15T11:28:57Z elderK: If I'm wrong people, please chime in :)
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2016-04-15T11:29:59Z jackdaniel: I'm aware of the fact, that you can make crude hacks with C pointers (which are the source of many errors btw), but how is this related?
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2016-04-15T11:30:25Z jackdaniel: and no, you can't argue, that C functions are closures (unless I'm wrong, please enlight me)
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2016-04-15T11:31:29Z jackdaniel: either way my impression is that scheme is conceptually more complex then C (to rephrase my unfortunate statement), but complexity always is a matter of personal opinion
2016-04-15T11:31:43Z jackdaniel: maybe not always, often ;)
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2016-04-15T11:52:59Z ascii-soup: that was an interesting discussion
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2016-04-15T11:55:46Z mejja: Isn't C just a glorified macro assembler?
2016-04-15T11:55:59Z fe[nl]ix: no
2016-04-15T11:56:19Z fe[nl]ix: if you want that, use Nasm
2016-04-15T11:56:40Z fe[nl]ix: you can nowadays define functions and structs in Nasm
2016-04-15T11:56:47Z fe[nl]ix: (IIRC)
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2016-04-15T13:07:12Z kami: Good afternoon
2016-04-15T13:07:59Z oleo: sup sup
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2016-04-15T14:23:05Z varjagg: anyone had issues with series package recently?
2016-04-15T14:24:01Z varjagg: sbcl exhausts heap while trying to print result of (series 'a)
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2016-04-15T14:25:12Z Bike: isn't that an infinitely long series? hopefully you can just set *print-length* or something.
2016-04-15T14:25:13Z minion: Bike, memo from drmeister: No, sorry.  I learned from Kaleidoscope, the doxygen docs (for what they are worth), talking to people on #llvm and reading example code. Ask me about it if you like.
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2016-04-15T14:25:27Z Bike: figures
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2016-04-15T14:25:36Z varjagg: dang
2016-04-15T14:25:43Z varjagg: Bike: must've misread the manual
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2016-04-15T14:30:45Z Bike: cltl2 gives the example of (series 'a) => #z(a a a ...)
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2016-04-15T14:36:18Z varjagg: yes
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2016-04-15T14:39:07Z drmeister: Hey Bike
2016-04-15T14:39:12Z Bike: hey.
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2016-04-15T14:39:25Z drmeister: Someone needs to write a book on llvm.
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2016-04-15T14:39:43Z Bike: the particular thing i was wondering about was something not in kaleidoscope, particularly how to use tagged values.
2016-04-15T14:39:46Z drmeister: They could make hundreds of dollars.
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2016-04-15T14:40:06Z Bike: i mean, use structs, obviously, but when i tried writing something for cons constants it started involving globals and addresses thereof
2016-04-15T14:40:14Z drmeister: As in tagged pointers?
2016-04-15T14:40:31Z Bike: yeah.
2016-04-15T14:40:44Z drmeister: There is nothing in llvm to support that.
2016-04-15T14:40:53Z igam: https://www.google.fr/search?q=llvm+book&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=a_0QV6ObGIG2a7jNhMgM
2016-04-15T14:41:02Z drmeister: You do the masking and testing yourself.
2016-04-15T14:41:11Z Bike: i mean, as a first try at a lisp-like language i was going to have all values be pointers to struct lispobj { int tag; char data[0]; }. i've done it in C.
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2016-04-15T14:42:34Z Bike: and you can do it in llvm, i'm s ure, but it's not quite as convenient as LLVMConstReal
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2016-04-15T14:44:17Z Bike: mostly i just think it's weird how the language reference is quite useful and comprehensive for writing out llvm-ir the language, but if i want to do that in memory like i thought was normal, the documentation is underwhelming.
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2016-04-15T14:50:01Z drmeister: Bike: When you say "in memory" you mean using the C-API or the C++-API?
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2016-04-15T14:50:32Z Bike: the one i can call from lisp, so the former. i know it's unsupported or whatever, but the latter isn't that well documented either. i mean, doxygen? ew.
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2016-04-15T14:52:42Z drmeister: Welcome to my world.   This is the crux of the problem.  The C++-API is the gold standard and it can pretty much only be used from C++.   The C-API is not maintained in any official way.  It's added to by anyone who needs part of the C++-API exposed to C.  The C-API doesn't cover everything you need.
2016-04-15T14:53:19Z Bike: that's what i read, yeah. using something so hard to interop with is aggravating.
2016-04-15T14:53:47Z drmeister: That's why I'm doing what I'm doing the way I'm doing it.
2016-04-15T14:54:10Z Bike: using the C++ api?
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2016-04-15T14:54:37Z drmeister: A C++ template programming library to make it easier to expose the C++-API to Clasp Common Lisp.  Then I write in Common Lisp.
2016-04-15T14:54:43Z drmeister: Yes, I'm using the C++ API
2016-04-15T14:54:46Z Bike: right.
2016-04-15T14:55:18Z Bike: i haven't been too bothered by the lack of bindings. sellout has nice ones for the C one, and i'm not doing anything too exotic yet. maybe that will come up with gc.
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2016-04-15T14:56:02Z drmeister: LLVM works fine with Boehm and with MPS.
2016-04-15T14:58:37Z drmeister: Another option for tooling around with LLVM is to use Clasp - it has a large swath of the C++ API exposed to Clasp Common Lisp.
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2016-04-15T14:58:57Z elderK: Baaackkkk
2016-04-15T14:59:04Z Bike: might not be a bad idea
2016-04-15T14:59:11Z drmeister: Generate functions, modules, JIT code, to Ahead of time compilation, link modules - it's got all of that working.
2016-04-15T14:59:15Z drmeister: And I use it every day.
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2016-04-15T15:00:34Z drmeister: And the Clang AST crawling functionality I incorporated could be used to automatically create FFI bindings for LLVM for all other Common Lisps.
2016-04-15T15:01:20Z drmeister: I don't know why no one has run with this idea yet.   If I had the time (I guess that's why) I'd be all over it.
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2016-04-15T15:02:50Z Bike: yeah, i don't have a lot of that.
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2016-04-15T15:18:01Z drmeister: If you want, we can talk more about it later.  There is pretty much a 1:1 mapping between LLVM C++-API calls and Clasp exposed functions.  I refer to the LLVM Doxygen documentation all the time to understand how to use the Clasp exposed functions from Common Lisp.
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2016-04-15T15:19:01Z Bike: cool. i'll try it sometime.
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2016-04-15T15:28:40Z phoe_krk: I need a little bit of help: What's the simplest explanation for why some symbols have one colon and some have two, when displayed in PACKAGE:SYMBOL or PACKAGE::SYMBOL form?
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2016-04-15T15:29:05Z phoe_krk: I ended up googling for it and didn't have much luck this time.
2016-04-15T15:29:07Z Bike: one : means the symbol is external.
2016-04-15T15:29:19Z Bike: exported, i mean.
2016-04-15T15:29:23Z phoe_krk: Exported. I see.
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2016-04-15T15:29:40Z phoe_krk: Two mean that it is internal?
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2016-04-15T15:30:36Z isoraqathedh: Yes.
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2016-04-15T15:30:51Z Bike: two means it's accessed bypassing the question of whether it's external.
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2016-04-15T15:31:05Z isoraqathedh: Generally "unexported" symbols are used for things that aren't relevant to the purpose of the package.
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2016-04-15T15:31:07Z Bike: that is, you can do cl::car if you want
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2016-04-15T15:31:34Z isoraqathedh: To have a symbol that has an actual colon in the name, escape it: foo\:bar
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2016-04-15T15:36:14Z drmeister: Excellent - it looks like I've eliminated special variables from Clasp's generic function dispatch.
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2016-04-15T18:31:02Z _rpg: Can anyone point me to an example of a 5AM fixture with arguments?
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2016-04-15T18:50:43Z jackdaniel: https://gist.github.com/dkochmanski/a8312b5ebb7b15880cdcc57065ce1a4c – draft of an essay for the next ECL Quarterly
2016-04-15T18:50:54Z jackdaniel: I'll be grateful for any feedback :)
2016-04-15T18:50:57Z jackdaniel: thanks
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2016-04-15T18:54:51Z DeadTrickster: jackdaniel, tl;dr :-) but you can probably mention bordeaux threads 'condition-wait gate' and how this problem is common for 'compatibility layer libs"
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2016-04-15T18:55:43Z jackdaniel: DeadTrickster: what do you mean?
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2016-04-15T18:57:03Z DeadTrickster: this libs give you only common-divisor. for example condition-wait supported timeout param on sbcl for no less than a couple of years. then someone implemented it elsewhere too and only recently it was added to bt
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2016-04-15T18:57:46Z jackdaniel: well, if you *need* something and there is no means to achieve it on some implementation then you are out of luck
2016-04-15T18:58:01Z jackdaniel: if implementation doesn't support threads, then you won't have threads, even if you pull bt
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2016-04-15T19:01:08Z DeadTrickster: so this approach forces everyone to use underdeveloped stuff. good
2016-04-15T19:02:42Z jackdaniel: I'd argue if closing yourself into one particular implementation is any better..
2016-04-15T19:03:43Z jackdaniel: or to rewrite underdeveloped hacks (condition-wait won't magically appear if implementation doesn't support it) over and over again in each project
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2016-04-15T19:06:46Z DeadTrickster: at the end these are consequences of old standard isn't it? imaging any 'modern' language not mentioning threads, networking etc.
2016-04-15T19:06:57Z jackdaniel: yeah, you're right :)
2016-04-15T19:07:25Z jackdaniel: I think that things like condition-wait (if used frequently) just push implementations forward, so they're good
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2016-04-15T19:08:56Z pjb: DeadTrickster: wrong.
2016-04-15T19:09:23Z pjb: Lisp will skip directly from single core to megacores.  Implement a Lisp on Cuda!
2016-04-15T19:09:33Z jackdaniel: either way, I'm out. If anyone have some remarks, please send it on my e-mail (mentioned on the top of the gist)
2016-04-15T19:09:38Z pjb: We already had *lisp on Connection Machines, and other parallel lisps.
2016-04-15T19:11:42Z clique: Just yesterday I was reading about S. Omohundro.
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2016-04-15T19:15:23Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: regarding your building CLs, JSCL can also ran on node which requires less file copying (only jscl.js and node-repl.js) and ensured to build with CCL as well. Also building SBCL on windows is something that doesn't have much information online. Adding a note that mingw is preferred for unix compability would be a good idea.
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2016-04-15T19:19:28Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: thanks
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2016-04-15T19:39:03Z PuercoPop: *runs
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2016-04-15T19:43:09Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: Why the 'tries to deprecate other actively mantained libs' on uiop? For cl-fad?
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2016-04-15T19:45:01Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: "Some history" paragraph from http://quickdocs.org/uiop/
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2016-04-15T19:45:42Z jackdaniel: instead of creating "superior" counterpart, these packages could be improved
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2016-04-15T19:46:05Z jackdaniel: that's my personal opinion of course
2016-04-15T19:47:09Z jackdaniel: eventually a project which pulls other as dependencies and reexports symbols in consistent fashion
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2016-04-15T19:49:48Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: remember that uiop has to have no dependencies as well as it is the foundation upon which ASDF is built (the successor to asdf-driver iirc). Fare is prety much for library 'consolidation' so I'm guessing he has a well thought out reasoning as to why not work on the libs instead.
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2016-04-15T19:52:29Z jackdaniel: it looks more to me like NIH syndrome. I understand that asdf had to have it's own functions – ASDF-DRIVER had a lot less functionality though. What for does asdf need swank-loader? or trivial-backtrace?
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2016-04-15T19:56:40Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: trivial-backtrace to generate backtrace. How would asdf log build failures if not? swank-loader seems like a way to dump images with a configurable fasl directory. Seems part of core ASDF functionality.
2016-04-15T19:57:04Z PuercoPop: the CLI argument handling seems a little bit more far fetched
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2016-04-15T20:01:10Z jackdaniel: either way my reasoning is that uiop goes beyond asdf-driver requirements and tries to make obsolete maintained projects
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2016-04-15T20:15:09Z pofilisp: hi
2016-04-15T20:15:22Z pofilisp: who is the maintainer of the CLISP?
2016-04-15T20:15:31Z pjb: nobody.
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2016-04-15T20:15:40Z pjb: That could be you, if you have the time to do it.
2016-04-15T20:16:03Z pofilisp: pjb: how can I became him?
2016-04-15T20:16:41Z pjb: By doing it.  Ie. prepare a new release, integrating patches collected so far.
2016-04-15T20:16:49Z pjb: Then you will be handled the keys.
2016-04-15T20:17:05Z pjb: Talk about it on the clisp-devel mailling list.
2016-04-15T20:17:53Z pjb: I was about to do that last year, but I went to the the end of my free time budget and I had to go back to work to earn some money to pay taxes…
2016-04-15T20:18:01Z pofilisp: pjb: to prepare a new release, I need access to the repo, right?
2016-04-15T20:18:33Z pjb: If there was a univeral basic revenue, I wouldn't have to "work" for money of useless things, I could maintain clisp instead :-/
2016-04-15T20:18:46Z pjb: pofilisp: only read access: you can clone the repository and work on the clone.
2016-04-15T20:19:04Z pofilisp: pjb: than it will be a fork
2016-04-15T20:19:43Z pofilisp: pjb: then
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2016-04-15T20:22:10Z pjb`: Once you've got everything ready, and thus have proven your worth as a maintainer, you'll be handled the keys to merge back into the main repository. This is the usual procedure when new maintainers coming out of the blue present themselves.
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2016-04-15T20:23:20Z pofilisp: pjb: ok. *Who* will merge my changes to the main repo?
2016-04-15T20:23:26Z pofilisp: pjb: who is the king?
2016-04-15T20:24:14Z pjb: Once you're able to present a repository containing the new release, you're given the keys to the main repository, becoming officially the maintainer, and then *you* will merge your changes back to the main repository :-)
2016-04-15T20:25:19Z pofilisp: pjb: ahh, I see. I'll got the write access from the Universe. LOL
2016-04-15T20:25:50Z pjb: So fork the mercurial repository, integrate some patches, compile and generate a clisp 2.50 and go tell about it in clisp-devel https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/clisp-devel
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2016-04-15T20:26:01Z pjb: http://clisp.sourceforge.net/
2016-04-15T20:26:20Z pjb: The admins are listed here: https://sourceforge.net/p/clisp/_members/
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2016-04-15T21:26:14Z _rpg: Hi -- anyone out there familiar with the internals of source lookup in SLIME?
2016-04-15T21:26:33Z Bike: a little bit
2016-04-15T21:28:22Z _rpg: Bike: I think I could improve the Allegro implementation of source lookup, but I"M a little confused by the stuff that swank is giving back -- the (<type> <name>) lists.  Is there a place I can find a list of keywords and meanings? The allegro stuff expects more specifics (like it will accurately find a DEFGENERIC for you).
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2016-04-15T21:30:38Z _rpg: Bike: Allegro's SCM::find-definition-in-file seems to find source location better than SLIME does now.
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2016-04-15T21:31:49Z Bike: i'm not sure which stuff you mean. the (:location ...) stuff?
2016-04-15T21:32:29Z _rpg: Bike: I think it's the SLIME-XREF CL-DEFSTRUCT I don't understand, not the SLIME-LOCATION
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2016-04-15T21:34:28Z Bike: i don't think i know about xrefs, sorry.
2016-04-15T21:35:16Z _rpg: For example, what does it mean for the keyword to be :OPERATOR (why is this not :FUNCTION)?
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2016-04-15T23:43:58Z malice: Hey guys, need some help with macros; I'm trying to write by myself do-tuples/o from On Lisp, but in a bit different manner: http://ix.io/wOr
2016-04-15T23:44:10Z malice: There is a code and examples in there
2016-04-15T23:44:35Z malice: I get it to work(the first macro), but it's vulnerable to some dumb ideas, which you shouldn't do anyway
2016-04-15T23:44:59Z malice: But good macro is good; I'd like to use once-only to evaluate my first arg only once, but then the line below the comment in second macro complains
2016-04-15T23:45:11Z malice: that "bindings not of type sequence". I don't know what should I change to make this right.
2016-04-15T23:46:09Z Bike: i think you may be misunderstanding what once-only does. why are you using it?
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2016-04-15T23:49:46Z malice: Bike: I want the second example to work. I might be misunderstanding it.
2016-04-15T23:50:07Z Bike: also, how is map0-n defined, so i can run this.
2016-04-15T23:50:31Z malice: hmm
2016-04-15T23:50:50Z malice: Actually this might be just wrong. I mean, my idea about this "security". Anyway, wait a second
2016-04-15T23:51:13Z malice: Bike: http://ix.io/wOs
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2016-04-15T23:53:44Z Bike: ok, i think i get where you're confused.
2016-04-15T23:53:48Z malice: Well now that I think of it
2016-04-15T23:53:59Z Bike: bindings is not evaluated. it's just a list of symbols. you can't put one in before it's macro expanded as you seem to want to do.
2016-04-15T23:54:07Z malice: Yeah, that's what I thought just now
2016-04-15T23:54:28Z malice: And I guess that evaluating it makes little sense.
2016-04-15T23:54:37Z malice: So, the my-do-tuples/o looks good?
2016-04-15T23:54:46Z Bike: well, it works.
2016-04-15T23:54:49Z malice: :)
2016-04-15T23:54:58Z malice: Thanks for clarification.
2016-04-15T23:55:01Z Bike: your not-working macro doesn't work because once-only binds "bindings" to a gensym that at runtime will be bound to something else.
2016-04-15T23:55:22Z Bike: so when you then try to call nth on it, at macroexpansion time, you're doing essentially (nth x 'foo), which obviously doesn't work.
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2016-04-15T23:56:26Z malice: So if I were to write it with once-only, I couldn't use it at macroexpansion time, because it's not the thing I want(yet)?
2016-04-15T23:57:06Z Bike: not just that. once-only is intended for arguments to the macro that you want to be evaluated at runtime. you don't want your bindings evaluated.
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2016-04-15T23:58:59Z malice: Okay. Got it.
2016-04-15T23:59:04Z malice: Thanks for help, goodnight :)
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2016-04-16T00:35:30Z linoge: So, I have function f(x), how would I do to create a new function f'() which is f with x already applied? (feel free to correct my phrasing, I'm new to everything fp related) ^^
2016-04-16T00:36:43Z Bike: in what system? that doesn't look like lisp.
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2016-04-16T00:38:46Z linoge: CommonLisp, using SBCL :).
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2016-04-16T00:38:58Z sjl: linoge: the term you're looking for is "curry" https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/draft/alexandria.html#index-curry-59
2016-04-16T00:39:26Z sjl: which is a bad name for it because it's not actual currying, but everyone in lisp land calls partial function application "currying" so: welp
2016-04-16T00:39:32Z Bike: (lambda () (f x))
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2016-04-16T00:40:51Z linoge: sjl: lol, discarded currying because I thought it only reduced functions to one argument :c
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2016-04-16T00:41:30Z sjl: yeah that's what "curry" actually means but lisp folks tend to call partial application currying for some reason
2016-04-16T00:41:44Z sjl: I think clojure uses the correct name
2016-04-16T00:42:11Z Xach: Every time someone mistakenly calls it currying, someone else chimes in that it's partial application, so I'm not sure the misuses is all that widespread.
2016-04-16T00:42:33Z sjl: it's misnamed in alexandria, which is pretty widespread
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2016-04-16T00:43:30Z linoge: Bike: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313618 kinda gives me "debugger invoked on a SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR in thread ... invalid number of arguments: 2"
2016-04-16T00:44:07Z sjl: top two google results for "common lisp curry" are actually partial.  third one does mention partial tho.
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2016-04-16T00:46:07Z Bike: in any case i blame schonfinkel
2016-04-16T00:46:34Z Bike: linoge: because you gave map two arguments, which doesn't make sense.
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2016-04-16T00:46:52Z linoge: Yeah, sorry, just figured it out ^^
2016-04-16T00:47:02Z linoge: Guess I went full retard :)
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2016-04-16T00:59:01Z Bike: with the map the threads are too fast and it all prints out in order, b ut with a basic tree setup i can see the indeterminacy. that's neat.
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2016-04-16T01:01:38Z linoge: Well, actually, I'm using it to download a list of articles from a web forum ^^. 644, it was incredible how fast it all ran.
2016-04-16T01:02:16Z linoge: and I thought it would be more resource-hungry than it was
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2016-04-16T15:16:39Z elderK: Guys, is SBCL's threading support still considered experimental on Windows?
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2016-04-16T15:17:14Z mood: elderK: I believe it's not, though there isn't much SBCL manpower on Windows
2016-04-16T15:17:49Z elderK: :(
2016-04-16T15:22:21Z haom: elderK: obviously nobody cares about running SBCL on windows, why do you?
2016-04-16T15:22:26Z Xof: that's not at all true
2016-04-16T15:22:32Z haom: CLISP doesnt even build anymore on windows.
2016-04-16T15:23:09Z elderK: haom: That's a crappy attitude.
2016-04-16T15:23:29Z elderK: I care because I like the things I create to be portable.
2016-04-16T15:23:45Z elderK: I want to be able to build and run the things I create on the platforms I use.
2016-04-16T15:23:53Z haom: portability requires work, lot of work.
2016-04-16T15:23:58Z elderK: So, Win32/64. Linux x86, x64. FBSD
2016-04-16T15:24:02Z elderK: O
2016-04-16T15:24:06Z elderK: I'm well aware of that.
2016-04-16T15:24:56Z haom: so if there is nobody who cares about the combination of windows+sbcl, why should you care about porting to that platform combination?
2016-04-16T15:25:17Z mood: haom: There are certainly people who care about that combination. That's why it works properly
2016-04-16T15:25:35Z elderK: I'm kind of shocked here. :)
2016-04-16T15:25:41Z haom: thats like insisting for your code to run on apple watch, "because you care about portability"
2016-04-16T15:25:51Z elderK: :P Not quite.
2016-04-16T15:25:56Z haom: "oh, and it has to run on the mars rover"
2016-04-16T15:26:02Z elderK: What I'm working on needs to run on Windows, more so than Linux.
2016-04-16T15:26:09Z elderK: Why? Because the customers use that system.
2016-04-16T15:26:11Z elderK: POS Ready, etc.
2016-04-16T15:26:11Z mood: haom: Except for the fact that Windows is still the most used consumer OS
2016-04-16T15:27:01Z haom: yes, but obviously not a single developer cares about it enough to invest work into it.
2016-04-16T15:27:23Z elderK: HAHAHAHHA
2016-04-16T15:27:34Z elderK: Sorry. This just cracks me up.
2016-04-16T15:27:35Z haom: your target is not just where consumers are, but where the best combination of consumers and developers is.
2016-04-16T15:28:10Z mood: haom: "not a single developer cares..." is simply not true. There are even recent Windows builds available from sbcl.org
2016-04-16T15:28:14Z haom: and if you care about delivering to windows consumers, why dont you just use c# or something?
2016-04-16T15:28:25Z haom: mood, i'm exaggregating.
2016-04-16T15:28:27Z elderK: haom: Because I want to use Lisp? :)
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2016-04-16T15:28:36Z elderK: haom: You're exaggerating. And sounding like an arse :P
2016-04-16T15:28:52Z haom: if you want lisp, then use it on the platform god wanted it to run on.
2016-04-16T15:29:01Z elderK: Genera? :P
2016-04-16T15:29:02Z mood: haom: a lisp machine?
2016-04-16T15:29:06Z haom: ;)
2016-04-16T15:29:30Z Baggers`: elderK: I havnt used threads much on windows but from the little dabling I have done they worked well. SBCL is pretty nice on windows these days.
2016-04-16T15:30:06Z mood: The biggest problem I ran into on Windows was with character encoding, I believe
2016-04-16T15:30:47Z dto: i have a SLIME question. right now I use M-x slime to start an inferior SBCL, and then that starts the SDL game loop. i can evaluate defuns/defvars/etc in emacs and it updates the running application, but what i'd like to do is have the (start-game) come back to the REPL. do i need to start the game in its own thread to make that happen? forgive me if this seems simple. basically i don't want to hang the whole application if a DEFUN
2016-04-16T15:30:47Z dto: encounters an error
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2016-04-16T15:32:29Z Baggers`: dto: Could you expand a little on 'come back to the REPL' part?
2016-04-16T15:32:29Z mood: dto: Separate threads are one solution. I think Baggers` also has something in CEPL to keep the REPL running from inside the game loop
2016-04-16T15:32:38Z elderK: mood: Because of Windows insistence on using UCS2 or because the console operates in ANSI rather than Unicode?
2016-04-16T15:33:41Z dto: Baggers`: i mean i'd like to run (startgame) in a thread and have that expression return a value or whatever, and then give another REPL prompt
2016-04-16T15:33:44Z mood: elderK: Not sure, been a while. It wasn't unfixable, I just had to be a little more explicit in specifying encodings in some places
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2016-04-16T15:34:16Z dto: mood: thanks. Baggers` what do you do in CEPL to keep the repl running from inside the game loop?
2016-04-16T15:34:33Z dto: i think i remember something about such code, but it would help me if you could explain
2016-04-16T15:35:32Z Baggers`: dto: https://github.com/cbaggers/swank.live it's in quicklisp too
2016-04-16T15:35:59Z dto: oh. nice !
2016-04-16T15:36:04Z Baggers`: dto: also more experimental is livesupport which is also in QL and is meant to support slime and sly
2016-04-16T15:36:34Z dto: i'll give swank.live a shot first, thanks so much for sharing this. it seems easy enough to drop in
2016-04-16T15:36:45Z dto: do you know if it works on Windows?
2016-04-16T15:36:52Z Baggers`: dto: it does
2016-04-16T15:37:31Z dto: cool :)
2016-04-16T15:37:44Z Baggers`: dto: also, if you get to the point where you want to use slime in single threaded mode (so you have your repl and C-c C-k happen in the same thread) you can use this https://gist.github.com/cbaggers/592e97c64d37e58d80f09c2b365b161c
2016-04-16T15:38:04Z Baggers`: add to your .emacs file and call slime-style to specify the communication style for swank to use
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2016-04-16T15:40:25Z dto: nice! Baggers` do you have a license for that gist? part of the idea of CL-MAKEGAME is to optionally auto-configure everything, so this could be useful to re-use
2016-04-16T15:40:31Z dto: thanks so much for your pointers on this.
2016-04-16T15:41:02Z dto:  <<< we can move to #lispgames for the remainder i suppose >>>
2016-04-16T15:41:14Z Baggers`: dto: No problem, it's been driving me batty for a while. One sec and I'll license that gist
2016-04-16T15:41:21Z dto: Baggers`: sweet :)
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2016-04-16T15:42:19Z Baggers`: dto: sure
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2016-04-16T19:08:13Z dto: Xach: quickproject is nice. is there a way to make the generated package.lisp include (:use #:cl #:xelf)  ? instead of just CL
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2016-04-16T19:10:41Z Baggers`: dto: For customizing package.lisp you make a package.lisp file that uses the #| |# tags to inject things. And then use the :template-directory argument to get quickproject to fill it in
2016-04-16T19:11:00Z dto: ah cool.
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2016-04-16T19:22:27Z PuercoPop: dto: there easy project as well. It uses cl-emb (normally used for html templating) to define project skeletons https://github.com/guicho271828/eazy-project
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2016-04-16T19:23:38Z dto: thanks Baggers` and PuercoPop :) i'm making a project wizard thinger for my CL-MAKEGAME project
2016-04-16T19:24:37Z Baggers`: nice
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2016-04-16T19:30:28Z PuercoPop: dto: nice. I think eazy-project would be easier to customize
2016-04-16T19:30:37Z dto: i'll take a look
2016-04-16T19:31:05Z PuercoPop: the template approach is also taken by leiningen in the clojure community
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2016-04-16T19:52:44Z shka: hi
2016-04-16T19:53:35Z shka: are there any guaranteens that i can bet on when calling integer-length on value returned by sxhash?
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2016-04-16T19:54:05Z shka: namely: i'm wondering if i can bet on obtaining hash size this way
2016-04-16T19:54:25Z shka: or should i obtain hash length in some other way
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2016-04-16T20:04:51Z Bike: i'm not sure what you're asking. sxhash returns a fixnum and integer-length will return how many bits you need to fit that.
2016-04-16T20:05:23Z edgar-rft: integer-length returns the number of bits used for the actual integer, not the maximum possible integer. This guarantees that the value returned by integer-length is most likely not the maximum hash-size, or if then only by chance.
2016-04-16T20:05:23Z edgar-rft: In CLHS under "sxhash" I read "the intent is that an implementation should make a good-faith effort to produce hash-codes that are well distributed within the range of non-negative fixnums." To me this reads as if the hash size is (integer-length most-positive-fixnum).
2016-04-16T20:05:58Z Bike: no, it could be less.
2016-04-16T20:06:11Z Bike: well, no, i mean the maximum is that, yes.
2016-04-16T20:06:35Z shka: ok thanks
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2016-04-16T20:27:23Z le4fy: shot in the dark, does anyone have experience programming the arc dialect?
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2016-04-16T20:42:25Z le4fy: prxq: :)
2016-04-16T20:42:46Z le4fy: sry, ww
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2016-04-16T20:47:15Z edgar-rft: le4fy: #lisp = Common Lisp, ##lisp = *all* lisp dialects, maybe you'll find some arc programmers there
2016-04-16T20:47:32Z le4fy: ahh, thank you
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2016-04-16T20:56:14Z PuercoPop: le4fy: as to stay on topic, malisper has ported some goodies from Arc to CL https://github.com/malisper/Clamp
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2016-04-16T21:08:42Z Baggers`: PuercoPop: nice link
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2016-04-16T21:09:51Z dundak: what is better, sbcl or ccl?
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2016-04-16T21:12:34Z elderK: Peanut butter.
2016-04-16T21:12:42Z elderK: dundak: It depends what you need.
2016-04-16T21:12:50Z elderK: Windows? Linux?
2016-04-16T21:12:51Z elderK: Both?
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2016-04-16T21:13:03Z elderK: I've heard pretty good things about CCL.
2016-04-16T21:13:34Z dundak: elderk: Linux. I need stable Lisp implementation to use without pain and hacking the implementation itself
2016-04-16T21:13:55Z dundak: elderk: I need it for serious work rather than for fun
2016-04-16T21:14:48Z elderK: Then SBCL and CCL match your requirements.
2016-04-16T21:15:05Z elderK: I'd personally choose SBCL.
2016-04-16T21:15:11Z dundak: elderk: don't want waste my time on endless improving the implementation - I need the robust and powerful tool
2016-04-16T21:15:18Z elderK: It's widely used, lots of pepole are familiar with it and it's actively maintained.
2016-04-16T21:15:33Z elderK: And it tends to have a good release cycle going.
2016-04-16T21:15:44Z elderK: But TBH, Either SBCL or CCL will do you well.
2016-04-16T21:15:55Z elderK: I'd pick either over ECL.
2016-04-16T21:16:07Z elderK: SBCL is probably more mature.
2016-04-16T21:16:12Z elderK: But CCL used to be  acommercial product, iirc.
2016-04-16T21:17:18Z Bike: like, twenty years ago
2016-04-16T21:17:32Z dundak: elderK: thank you.
2016-04-16T21:18:45Z elderK: Bike: Yup.
2016-04-16T21:18:52Z elderK: People, cna you help add to this?
2016-04-16T21:18:53Z elderK: :)
2016-04-16T21:19:35Z Baggers`: ccl has a decent repl outside of slime, has abstractions over using cocoa on osx. sbcl is (I think) consired more performant in the cases with most aggressive optimizations enabled. Both work well on linux, osx and windows. SBCL's thread support on windows is marked experimental, but seems to work well. I choose sbcl. Most of these differences are are not relevent if you are focussed on linux though
2016-04-16T21:20:36Z dundak: Baggers`: how stable sbcl is?
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2016-04-16T21:20:45Z prxq: dundak: rock solid
2016-04-16T21:21:09Z aeth: unless you turn on too many optimizations, but then it's probably your fault
2016-04-16T21:21:12Z dundak: prxq: and ccl, of course, too? :)
2016-04-16T21:21:18Z Baggers`: I've never broken thats for sure :)
2016-04-16T21:21:34Z aeth: I broke SBCL once (and only once) with a bad declare statement iirc
2016-04-16T21:21:59Z aeth: as in, I had to restart the inferior-lisp in SLIME
2016-04-16T21:22:05Z prxq: dundak: i don't know, actually :-) used sbcl almost exclusively for more that 10 years now.
2016-04-16T21:22:36Z dundak: how about FFI ? What FFI is better, CCL's or SBCL's? I need to call either C from Lisp, and Lisp from C
2016-04-16T21:23:11Z lucca: you'll probably want to use CFFI anyway.  SBCL is the prime target for that
2016-04-16T21:23:12Z prxq: dundak: both work in sbcl
2016-04-16T21:23:36Z aeth: I've had no problems in SBCL with e.g. cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl
2016-04-16T21:24:06Z aeth: Usually any errors that pop up with CFFI are you thinking you have some library installed that you actually don't have installed.
2016-04-16T21:24:34Z aeth: The one drawback is that it's often not clear from the error messages that this is the case.
2016-04-16T21:24:37Z dundak: is it possible to call Lisp from C?
2016-04-16T21:24:46Z dundak: with CFFI
2016-04-16T21:24:58Z lucca: realistically though if most of your stuff is valid ANSI CL and you write reasonable ffi like CFFI, you can probably switch back and forth between any of these with no trouble
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2016-04-16T21:25:35Z lucca: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/index.html is the manual; take a peek to see if it makes sense to you
2016-04-16T21:25:44Z aeth: You probably want to use portability libraries and make sure to support at least SBCL and CCL. OS X users will probably use CCL, Linux users will probably use SBCL. I do not know what is the most popular on Windows.
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2016-04-16T21:25:53Z prxq: dundak: yes, it's possible.
2016-04-16T21:26:12Z lucca: https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/defcallback.html#defcallback etc
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2016-04-16T21:26:29Z dundak: lucca: the manual can say many many fine things. I ask here experiensed users :)
2016-04-16T21:26:35Z dundak: lucca: as I hope :)
2016-04-16T21:27:06Z lucca: certainly, but seeing the docs can help get a more concrete feel
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2016-04-16T21:27:44Z lucca: from experience, it's very easy to integrate all sorts of gnarly c libraries in via the cffi groveler
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2016-04-16T21:28:51Z dundak: so, the FFI support is equally good for either SBCL and CCL?
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2016-04-16T21:29:27Z lucca: I have "heard good things" about CCL but lack direct experience with that one.
2016-04-16T21:31:12Z prxq: dundak: sbcl compiles to fast machine code. and is completely usable otherwise.
2016-04-16T21:31:38Z aeth: If you're writing something that other people are going to use, you will probably have to support both because those are afaik the most popular implementations right now. If you're writing something for yourself and you care enough, you could test on both and see which one performs better.
2016-04-16T21:32:10Z dundak: thanks!
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2016-04-16T21:32:29Z aeth: On Linux, though, sbcl is probably more popular right now, so that means the (CL) libraries in theory might work better on SBCL. Portability is a goal, but a lot of stuff is basically written to be run on SBCL, unfortunately.
2016-04-16T21:32:44Z dundak: hm, according to https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/manual/html_node/Implementation-Support.html#Implementation-Support, the CCL has the best implementation of FFI -- no limitations...
2016-04-16T21:32:45Z Baggers`: dundak: re ffi: yes. Use cffi, it wraps the various implementations ffi's and is very good
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2016-04-16T21:33:12Z aeth: The situation may or may not be reversed on OS X. It's possible that some libraries are only tested on SBCL on Linux and on CCL on OS X.
2016-04-16T21:35:50Z prxq: dundak: sbcl supports some fairly obscure platforms, and on some of them, it doesn't support callbacks. That's usually not a real limitation, unless you happen to be on that platform.
2016-04-16T21:36:00Z prxq: and then ccl will not help you either
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2016-04-16T21:37:06Z dundak: prxq: well, I use X86_64 on Linux/OpenBSD only, and, I hope, they are support callbacks :)
2016-04-16T21:37:17Z prxq: yes they do
2016-04-16T21:37:43Z dundak: thats great
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2016-04-16T21:48:53Z elderK: SBCL has to be one of the better implementations as far as portability to different platforms is considered.
2016-04-16T21:49:02Z elderK: I mean, it has every major platform pretty much covered.
2016-04-16T21:49:11Z elderK: X86(-64)?, ARM(64)?
2016-04-16T21:49:27Z elderK: It's support for the NIXs is basically unbeatable.
2016-04-16T21:49:32Z elderK: It does support Windows, too.
2016-04-16T21:49:40Z elderK: I can't comment with regards to CCL on that matter.
2016-04-16T21:49:47Z elderK: ECL is pretty good too, as far as portability is concerned.
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2016-04-16T21:50:01Z elderK: But in my experience, it doesn't always work with some tools, say, SlimV which is SLIME for Vim.
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2016-04-16T21:50:12Z elderK: As for Lisp->C C->Lisp, yes, that's definitely possible.
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2016-04-16T21:50:23Z elderK: But as others have said, some platforms may have restrictions.
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2016-04-16T21:50:47Z elderK: Also note that some kinds of calls will require a support library for CFFI called libffi.
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2016-04-16T21:51:02Z elderK: This is required when you're returning structures by value from C to Lisp.
2016-04-16T21:51:14Z elderK: Most APIs work by reference, however, so you will not necessarily require libffi.
2016-04-16T21:51:15Z elderK: :)
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2016-04-16T21:51:33Z elderK: CFFI is a wrapper, as others have mentioned. It abstracts away the implementation-specific FFIs.
2016-04-16T21:52:00Z elderK: If you write your "foreign interface" code with CFFI, you can almost guarantee you'll be able to run what you write on any other major CL implementation.
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2016-04-16T21:52:08Z elderK: CCL, CMUCL, SBCL, ECL, etc.
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2016-04-16T21:56:34Z dundak: elderK: thanks
2016-04-16T21:56:46Z dundak: elderK: I don't bother about portability
2016-04-16T21:57:20Z dundak: elderK: I don't believe that it can make me more productive
2016-04-16T21:58:01Z dundak: elderK: and I'm with cold heart now where pragmatism rules
2016-04-16T21:58:56Z dundak: elderK: I don' bother about language - Lisp or not Lisp -- don't care. I'm not a fanboy, I need a tool for doing useful things like data analysis
2016-04-16T21:59:30Z dundak: elderK: I just believe that Lisp can be the best due to interactive approach
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2016-04-16T22:01:34Z LiamH: dundak: you might be interested in Antik and GSLL.
2016-04-16T22:02:48Z dundak: LiamH: never heard about these ones.
2016-04-16T22:02:59Z dundak: LiamH: can you share the link?
2016-04-16T22:03:46Z LiamH: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/antik/
2016-04-16T22:03:51Z dundak: LiamH: I've found GSLL
2016-04-16T22:03:53Z LiamH: et sim. gsll
2016-04-16T22:04:52Z dundak: LiamH: hm, thanks! I've added these to the bookmarks!
2016-04-16T22:05:05Z LiamH: Antik provides "grids" (generalized arrays) that GSLL needs, also physical dimensions (units), generic math, and some other useful things.
2016-04-16T22:05:28Z dundak: LiamH: I see
2016-04-16T22:06:07Z LiamH: It also has some (very limited) higher level wrapping functions for GSLL, to make certain common calculation (like 1D minimization) really easy.
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2016-04-16T22:07:54Z dundak: LiamH: have you used these libs?
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2016-04-16T22:08:07Z LiamH: Well, yes.
2016-04-16T22:08:31Z LiamH: (hint: check the author on them)
2016-04-16T22:08:38Z dundak: LiamH: what impl. you use? SBCL?
2016-04-16T22:09:27Z LiamH: Yes. For a while, I tested on CCL but I haven't in a few years. Others have used them on e.g. ABCL though. They are designed to be as portable as possible.
2016-04-16T22:10:35Z dundak: LiamH: why are you switched to SBCL? For performance?
2016-04-16T22:10:38Z LiamH: For example, they use static-vectors (so that the foeign array and the CL array share the same storage) wherever it is supported, but if it's not supported, everything still works.
2016-04-16T22:12:11Z LiamH: I switched to SBCL when it started getting widespread use in the community, so it worked well and it was easy to get help if there were problems. That was 12 years or so ago.
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2016-04-16T22:12:58Z dundak: LiamH: wow
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2016-04-16T22:13:37Z dundak: why don't join the CCL and SBCL to one superior impl.? :)
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2016-04-16T22:14:08Z LiamH: Prior to that I had a license for ACL. It is fine, but when amd64 processors became widespread, they wanted a lot of $$ for upgrade. Meanwhile the SBCL people ported to the new processors in a few months.
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2016-04-16T22:15:03Z LiamH: Prior to that I had Symbolics lisp machines, but they stopped producing them and maintaining the software.
2016-04-16T22:15:55Z LiamH: dundak: I think you'll find that CCL and SBCL are very different. Not even SBCL and CMUCL (from which is derived) are the same.
2016-04-16T22:16:54Z dundak: LiamH: As I can see, the CCL is more conservative and "classic" :)
2016-04-16T22:17:04Z dundak: LiamH: I may be wrong
2016-04-16T22:17:29Z elderK: dundak: Never sacrifice portability.
2016-04-16T22:17:34Z LiamH: I don't know. I would say CCL compiles much faster but runs slower. This is because SBCL (and CMUCL) does extensive type propagation.
2016-04-16T22:17:36Z elderK: In some languages, sure.
2016-04-16T22:17:38Z elderK: But really, with CL?
2016-04-16T22:17:44Z elderK: It's no real effort to be portable.
2016-04-16T22:18:46Z dundak: elderK: great, if so, but I don' care much
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2016-04-16T22:19:10Z dundak: elderK: it can be important to write things like CFFI
2016-04-16T22:19:40Z dundak: elderK: it can be improtant when the code is useful enough and should be shared to others
2016-04-16T22:21:10Z dundak: LiamH: type propagation? So, the CCL is less type-safe?
2016-04-16T22:22:08Z LiamH: dundak: Meaning that it can optimize much better because it can infer types that CCL can't. I'm not sure what you mean by "type-safe".
2016-04-16T22:22:25Z LiamH: That inference is time consuming when compiling.
2016-04-16T22:22:59Z elderK: dundak: Typing in CL is pretty much runtime.
2016-04-16T22:23:09Z elderK: That is not to say, however, that you cna't annotate your source to tell the compiler what things are.
2016-04-16T22:23:17Z elderK: If you do so, you can greatly improve performance.
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2016-04-16T22:23:26Z elderK: More importantly, however, is using sane data structures.
2016-04-16T22:23:26Z dundak: LiamH: I mean the supid-error detection work better in "type-safe" languages
2016-04-16T22:23:34Z elderK: That will generally give you better result.
2016-04-16T22:23:51Z Bike: sbcl does type _inference_ better. just checking if something is the appropriate type and type-error-ing properly, any CL can do that.
2016-04-16T22:23:56Z dundak: LiamH: at compile time, of course
2016-04-16T22:24:01Z LiamH: dundak: Since lisp is tagged, you don't have to put type declarations in, so it's automatically "type-safe".
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2016-04-16T22:24:18Z LiamH: But for efficiency, you might want to put in declarations of type.
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2016-04-16T22:25:00Z dundak: Bike: do you mean checking at runtime? I mean compile time
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2016-04-16T22:29:13Z elderK: LiamH: You can, afaik, opt to do pretty much mostly... static.
2016-04-16T22:29:14Z elderK: I think.
2016-04-16T22:29:25Z elderK: If you set the optimization level up and type-annotate like crazy.
2016-04-16T22:29:37Z Bike: sbcl might catch a few more things, but compiler type warnings are pretty rare in lisp the way i program, personally
2016-04-16T22:29:40Z elderK: Some implementations let you do that *and* disable runtime checking, iirc.
2016-04-16T22:29:54Z LiamH: elkderK: depends on the compiler. They're not require to do that.
2016-04-16T22:29:58Z LiamH: elderK
2016-04-16T22:30:00Z elderK: No, they're not.
2016-04-16T22:30:04Z elderK: But some do :)
2016-04-16T22:30:10Z elderK: I may be thinking of Scheme and not CL, however.
2016-04-16T22:30:10Z elderK: :)
2016-04-16T22:30:26Z LiamH: I'm not even sure if SBCL does. It was a discussion a while back, not sure how it ended up.
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2016-04-16T23:01:19Z dundak: well, thank you all!
2016-04-16T23:01:25Z dundak: see you later!
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2016-04-16T23:28:18Z fdsa: hey can someone who knows common lisp help me? i'm trying to get my list L to return the value from my append function
2016-04-16T23:28:22Z fdsa: http://goo.gl/tstk5w
2016-04-16T23:28:56Z White_Flame: hmm, I think you might be hard pressed to find somebody who knows common lisp in here...
2016-04-16T23:30:07Z White_Flame: I only see (wite-line "hello world")
2016-04-16T23:30:13Z White_Flame: *write
2016-04-16T23:30:15Z mood: Same here
2016-04-16T23:30:19Z TeMPOraL: yup, same here
2016-04-16T23:30:44Z White_Flame: so I don't think you're sharing quite the right link, or its tied to your local storage or something
2016-04-16T23:31:05Z fdsa: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/5b745578b1ad67ea7dc0fb92fd4fdf40
2016-04-16T23:31:34Z White_Flame: btw, for numeric equality you want to use = instead of eq
2016-04-16T23:32:11Z fdsa: ok, that part seems to work though
2016-04-16T23:32:28Z White_Flame: also, Common Lisp by default will up-case all your symbols, so the case within the source code is effectively ignored
2016-04-16T23:33:17Z fdsa: I can change my templist but not L because i use L recurssively in the function
2016-04-16T23:33:19Z TeMPOraL: fdsa: generally don't use eq for anything; eql for symbols and characters, equal for other stuff, = for numerics
2016-04-16T23:33:30Z TeMPOraL: (eq is very low level, it tests identity of two objects)
2016-04-16T23:33:42Z tfm: I would also like to add that this code is fairly unidiomatic in how it uses parens; closing parens should generally be on the same line as the last statement, fdsa.
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2016-04-16T23:36:25Z fdsa: can i set L to the value of tempL within the function without changing the end result?
2016-04-16T23:36:54Z fdsa: what i'd like to do is get my appended list, then set L to that value and return it
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2016-04-16T23:37:13Z White_Flame: without changing any semantics, here's the same thing in more idiomatic syntax: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8095d4238faf30adadc12289020124e4
2016-04-16T23:38:43Z White_Flame: are you getting errors while running this?
2016-04-16T23:38:56Z White_Flame: and if not, what is it doing?
2016-04-16T23:39:36Z fdsa: no errors, it appends i to the end of L
2016-04-16T23:39:47Z fdsa: but, I would like to update L at the end and return L itself
2016-04-16T23:40:24Z White_Flame: (setf l value) will conveniently return the value
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2016-04-16T23:41:48Z White_Flame: your last clause can be (setf l (if (null l) ...)).  The result of the IF form will be stored into l, and as the last form in the append-item function, will also return that value from the function
2016-04-16T23:42:10Z White_Flame: oh, I see the problem.  You're shadowing l as both a defvar and a function parameter
2016-04-16T23:42:42Z White_Flame: so when you set to l, that will only change the binding established for the function call
2016-04-16T23:43:01Z White_Flame: there's a reason people tend to use (defvar *earmuffs* ...) instead
2016-04-16T23:44:13Z fdsa: what do earmuffs do?
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2016-04-16T23:44:31Z pjb: Nothing.
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2016-04-16T23:44:35Z mood: They don't do anything, it's just a naming convention
2016-04-16T23:44:35Z tfm: Earmuffs are a coding convention to tell you, "Hey, this variable is global".
2016-04-16T23:44:38Z White_Flame: just a visual differentiator so you don't actually use something simple like L as both a defvar and a function parameter
2016-04-16T23:44:49Z pjb: fdsa: but that gives special variables different names than usual variables.
2016-04-16T23:45:10Z pjb: fdsa: and since special variables have dynamic binding, while usual variables have lexical binding, it's important to understand correctly the code.
2016-04-16T23:45:48Z fdsa: well i only used defvar because i needed to make a persistent change to L with the append function
2016-04-16T23:45:49Z pjb: It doesn't really have anything to do with global, since you could have temporary (local) special variables too.
2016-04-16T23:46:09Z White_Flame: yo8u should really have more meaningful variable names
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2016-04-16T23:46:16Z pjb: (defun f () (declare (special *x*)) *x*)  (let ((*x* 42)) (declare (special *x*)) (f)) #| --> 42 |#
2016-04-16T23:50:48Z tfm: fdsa: It should be noted that append exists in the ANSI standard for CL, in case you're unaware.
2016-04-16T23:51:24Z fdsa: lol i know, it was a school assignment to implement append w/ cons
2016-04-16T23:51:35Z fdsa: using append for this would've been way easier
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2016-04-16T23:53:48Z fdsa: I still don't understand how i can return my list from the appenditem function?
2016-04-16T23:55:16Z TeMPOraL: fdsa: last expression is automatically the return value
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2016-04-16T23:56:49Z fdsa: ok, so the last expression is the correct value, but I have to save that in the list that i passed in to the function I think
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2016-04-16T23:56:57Z fdsa: is there a way to do that inside the function itself?
2016-04-16T23:57:33Z fdsa: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/8095d4238faf30adadc12289020124e4
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2016-04-16T23:57:56Z White_Flame: I already told you.  (setf var val) as the last form in your function.  It will set the value to the variable, as well as return the value
2016-04-16T23:58:28Z White_Flame: and the 'value' can be as complex of a subexpression as you care to fit in there
2016-04-16T23:59:43Z fdsa: Do you mean just setf(L (cons I nil)) will work?
2016-04-17T00:00:22Z fdsa: it's not saving to L when i do that
2016-04-17T00:00:34Z White_Flame: that's because your function parameter is named 'L', and it's setting it to that
2016-04-17T00:00:46Z White_Flame: you have a name clash & shadowing between your defvar and function parameters
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2016-04-17T00:07:36Z tfm: fdsa: I wrote up my own append-item if you want to look at it. It doesn't change *l* to the end result, so you'd have to add that behaviour yourself. :^)
2016-04-17T00:08:57Z fdsa: ok so the issue i think is that my assignment is worded very vaguely i guess
2016-04-17T00:09:48Z fdsa: so as long as i have global variable like templ, the value technically persists after execution, it doesn't have to have the same name as the parameter (i guess it can't)
2016-04-17T00:09:59Z fdsa: also, may i look at your solution tfm?
2016-04-17T00:10:09Z tfm: fdsa: https://ghostbin.com/paste/8s4ep
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2016-04-17T00:12:22Z White_Flame: fdsa, just use descriptive terms and that clash will go away: (defvar *last-append-result*)  (defun append-item (item list)  ... (setf *last-append-result* (if (null l) ...)))
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2016-04-17T00:12:42Z White_Flame: s/(null l)/(null list)/ etc
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2016-04-17T01:57:44Z aries_liuxueyang: hello
2016-04-17T01:58:24Z aries_liuxueyang: how to get variable's name in a function in a simple way..
2016-04-17T02:01:15Z Bike: What do you mean?
2016-04-17T02:02:46Z aeth: Can you provide an example of what you're trying to do in a pastebin? http://paste.lisp.org/
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2016-04-17T02:04:20Z aries_liuxueyang: okay.
2016-04-17T02:04:35Z aries_liuxueyang: wait a minute
2016-04-17T02:04:50Z aeth: It doesn't have to work (if it did you wouldn't need our help), we just need some context to understand your question
2016-04-17T02:08:42Z aries_liuxueyang: Here it is: http://paste.lisp.org/+6Q34
2016-04-17T02:09:25Z aries_liuxueyang: I do want  to print the argument name.
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2016-04-17T02:09:38Z Bike: you can't do that. functions don't know about the source text of their arguments. after all, what would (get-argument-name (foo (bar))) do?
2016-04-17T02:10:51Z aries_liuxueyang: can macro do that?
2016-04-17T02:12:49Z Bike: after a fashion, and the downside is that you can't use the actual value.
2016-04-17T02:13:04Z Bike: what is the actual problem you would like to solve? we might be able to suggest a common solution
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2016-04-17T02:16:31Z aries_liuxueyang: sometimes I want to check if a variable if defined, if it is defined I want to print that variable name, value and its type. (I know that I can add the variable name as a string as a second argument, I just want to know whether there is a simple way :-))
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2016-04-17T02:19:13Z aries_liuxueyang: do you know what I mean?
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2016-04-17T02:20:05Z Bike: sort of. the thing is that if you're dealing with a variable, you generally have its name already. for example, just (print 'foo-bar) for this paste.
2016-04-17T02:24:40Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah.
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2016-04-17T03:16:15Z dim: hi
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2016-04-17T06:05:31Z White_Flame: aries_liuxueyang: I believe get-argument-name is exactly equivalent to QUOTE :)
2016-04-17T06:06:12Z White_Flame: you can easily write a macro that calls a function, capturing both the source code and the value passed in a parameter slot
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2016-04-17T06:07:00Z White_Flame: (defun do-work (name value) ...)  (defmacro work (param) `(do-work ',param ,param)).  Which will just do the obvious for you: (work x) -> (do-work 'x x)
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2016-04-17T06:09:35Z White_Flame: but in general, you can use a macro to insert a quote for you, so (work x) can become (do-work 'x), which can introspect the boundp of the symbol X and whatever you need to do before actually accessing the value
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2016-04-17T11:53:32Z haom: somebody could update the channel title to sbcl 1.3.4 btw
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2016-04-17T12:07:06Z Zhivago changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language <http://cliki.net/> <http://paste.lisp.org/new> logs:<http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/>|contact op if muted|SBCL 1.3.4, ASDF 3.1.7, ECL 16.1.2, CMUCL 21a, CFFI 0.16.0, cl-launch 4.1.4, flexi-streams 1.0.15, Hunchentoot 1.2.34, Drakma 2.0.1
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2016-04-17T13:08:09Z papachan: hmmm i cannot compile 1.3.4
2016-04-17T13:09:56Z papachan: ah it was my fault i incorrectly extract it from bzip file
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2016-04-17T13:13:59Z haom: sbcl is wonderfully easy to compile and install.
2016-04-17T13:14:14Z haom: i wish all software was like that.
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2016-04-17T13:44:49Z papachan: haom: yeah
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2016-04-17T15:48:45Z dim: how to parse 2.173631433e+09 into a bignum?
2016-04-17T15:49:03Z dim: I mean, do I need to use a lib, write code, or can I just piggyback on something in the standard?
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2016-04-17T15:49:33Z dim: (handler-case (coerce 2.173631433e+09 'bignum) (condition (c) (format t "~a" c))) gives: 2.1736315E+9 can't be coerced to type BIGNUM.
2016-04-17T15:49:35Z Bike_ is now known as Bike
2016-04-17T15:50:34Z Bike: to get an integer from a float you use FLOOR or something. but because of how floats work it probably won't have the same digits.
2016-04-17T15:51:18Z Bike: also, 2173631488 fits in 32 bits, you probably don't need a bignum.
2016-04-17T15:51:53Z Bike: if you want float notation to parse into an integer you'd probably need to hack on a library
2016-04-17T15:52:06Z dim: (floor 2.173631433e+09) is 2173631488
2016-04-17T15:52:16Z Bike: won't have the same digits, i said.
2016-04-17T15:52:20Z dim: the context for tht question is https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/373
2016-04-17T15:52:21Z Bike: it's kind of an odd question, e.g., what would 2.173631433e+02 parse into?
2016-04-17T15:52:29Z dim: so I don't know per-se that it will fit in 32 bits
2016-04-17T15:52:52Z Bike: wow, that is a bad idea on the part of mongoexport!
2016-04-17T15:52:54Z dim: the context is about parsing mongexport notation back into a PostgreSQL integer
2016-04-17T15:53:04Z dim: yeah, mongo is again all wrong
2016-04-17T15:53:06Z dim: not a surprise
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2016-04-17T15:53:30Z dim: they clearly don't care at all about the data, in every possible meaning of that
2016-04-17T15:53:34Z pjb: dim: to write a parser, you must first write down the grammar!
2016-04-17T15:53:40Z pjb: dim: what is the syntax of those tokens?
2016-04-17T15:53:46Z Bike: the lisp number parsing library is parse-number, but it might be easier to just write your own.
2016-04-17T15:53:49Z dim: pjb: ask mongoexport ;-)
2016-04-17T15:54:00Z Bike: mongoexport, what is the syntax of these tokens
2016-04-17T15:55:11Z dim: ok I need to move now, thanks for your help already
2016-04-17T15:55:18Z Bike: «The CSV format of mongoexport seems to export floats like -0.00002 as "-2e-05.0", a format which is not a valid literal in C, Java, Python, JSON, bc(1), printf(1), and many other tools» haha this owns
2016-04-17T15:55:35Z dim: hehe
2016-04-17T15:55:45Z dim: it would be a lot funnier if I didn't have a use case to fix
2016-04-17T15:55:55Z Bike: it is
2016-04-17T15:55:58Z dim: now, it may be simpler to just connect to mongo
2016-04-17T15:56:12Z Bike: «mongoexport
2016-04-17T15:56:12Z Bike: formats double values as integers if they have no decimal places. And
2016-04-17T15:56:12Z Bike: because mongoimport "guesses" the data type, each of these fields are
2016-04-17T15:56:20Z Bike: inserted with type int32» this seems like a bad system, and sorry for newlines
2016-04-17T15:56:21Z dim: last I tried the API was so strange I stopped before doing anything useful
2016-04-17T15:56:34Z dim: will focus on adding some kind of mongo support to pgloader directly
2016-04-17T15:56:53Z aeth_ is now known as aeth
2016-04-17T15:56:53Z Bike: some internet question suggests mongodump/mongorestore instead
2016-04-17T15:57:29Z dim: I'd like to suggest PostgreSQL instead, for that I first need pgloader support for automated migration ;-)
2016-04-17T15:57:50Z Bike: the page on mongoexport more or less says not to use it, and that "[it doesn't] reliably preserve all rich BSON data types"
2016-04-17T15:59:36Z Bike: the docs on mongoexport seem to imply that a "long" integer will be read as a float on database entry, making your job impossible, and to use NumberLong to avoid reading as a float
2016-04-17T16:01:31Z pjb: dim:  the point here is that in general, such a syntax doesn't represent a big integer, but a ratio!  cf. http://paste.lisp.org/display/313760
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2016-04-17T16:03:44Z pjb: dim: of course, I just guessed the regexp; you'll have to adapt it to the real syntax.
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2016-04-17T16:05:14Z ssake: Is there a function to get list of structure slots in common lisp?
2016-04-17T16:05:21Z pjb: Nope.
2016-04-17T16:05:27Z ssake: oh
2016-04-17T16:05:37Z pjb: ssake: see: http://informatimago.com/articles/usenet.html#Improved-DEFSTRUCT-macro--run-time-access-to-the-fields
2016-04-17T16:05:58Z pjb: Instead, you can use classes, and the MOP.
2016-04-17T16:06:05Z ssake: ok
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2016-04-17T16:18:02Z haom: pjb, what are you using to generate the navigation on your sites?
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2016-04-17T16:36:41Z pjb: haom: my own script, written in emacs lisp.
2016-04-17T16:39:33Z pjb: They'http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=sites&h=a933bb4d41caf837a3b4d7e841676b3c6f5427a0&hb=9ad41064c181896acc1bd6cd84b450c0a0422e4d
2016-04-17T16:39:46Z pjb: They're available from: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=tree&p=sites&h=a933bb4d41caf837a3b4d7e841676b3c6f5427a0&hb=9ad41064c181896acc1bd6cd84b450c0a0422e4d
2016-04-17T16:41:03Z pjb: Basically, there's a nodes.el file in the root of the web site: http://git.informatimago.com/viewgit/index.php?a=viewblob&p=sites&h=db86e57f8ed6ce4b4cd5fb9ca3ceb69d8715c2d9&hb=9ad41064c181896acc1bd6cd84b450c0a0422e4d&f=com.informatimago.www/nodes.el and a Makefile that calls ../bin/html-update with it.
2016-04-17T16:41:53Z pjb: html-update runs emacs with html-update.el
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2016-04-17T16:43:45Z pjb: haom: it's old code; nowadays, I would write it in Common Lisp :-)
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2016-04-17T16:54:15Z haom: ok, thanks.
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2016-04-17T19:17:28Z John[Lis`: What do you call a proceasor designed for lisp?
2016-04-17T19:17:45Z John[Lis`: Designed specifically for lisp and not c
2016-04-17T19:18:27Z warweasle: John[Lis`: I think Symbolics made processors like that.
2016-04-17T19:18:35Z warweasle: John[Lis`: But I don't know if it has a special name.
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2016-04-17T19:20:03Z warweasle: I also think someone is trying to make a lisp FPGA.
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2016-04-17T19:29:15Z aeth: John[Lis`: According to Wikipedia, the general concept is "high-level language computer architecture". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-level_language_computer_architecture
2016-04-17T19:29:27Z aeth: The main cases are Lisp machines and Java processors.
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2016-04-17T19:30:45Z aeth: Afaik, "Lisp machine" refers to more than just the processor, so I guess you could call it a "Lisp processor" by analogy to the Java processors. There isn't a term on Wikipedia, though.
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2016-04-17T19:37:49Z edgar-rft: Hooray for netsplits!
2016-04-17T19:37:50Z edgar-rft: John[Lis`: I think the main difference between Lisp Machines and "normal" hardware design was that with Lisp Machines the type-tagging was implemented in hardware. E.g. they used 36-bit RAM where 32-bit were for the data and 4-bit for the type tag. This had to the consequence that the entire bus architecture including the processor needed to be 36-bit instead of 32-bit, etc. The processors were nicknamed after the Lisp machine, e.g. t
2016-04-17T19:37:50Z edgar-rft: he Symbolics Ivory had an "Ivory" processor, but there was no specific name for Lisp processors in general.
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2016-04-17T19:39:45Z gnome1: turns out I'm doing a lot of operations where I go through a list and remove elements, but I do a test with the rest of the list. my knowledge is a bit rusty, does CL have anything like remove-if where I get the cdr of the sublist, along with the car?
2016-04-17T19:40:20Z Bike: i don't think so. could probably do something weird with mapcan or whatnot.
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2016-04-17T19:58:19Z jdz: there's member-if
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2016-04-17T20:32:09Z warweasle: How can I do a #+ccl and then one for everything else?
2016-04-17T20:32:34Z aeth: probably #+(not ccl)
2016-04-17T20:33:01Z warweasle: aeth: Thanks, works.
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2016-04-17T20:34:30Z Bike: or #-ccl
2016-04-17T20:34:46Z aeth: oh, that's better
2016-04-17T20:35:07Z aeth: Iirc, I had to use (not foo) because I was using (and bar (not foo)) somewhere, so couldn't use the simple #-
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2016-04-17T20:53:34Z gnome1: jdz: I don't think that alone will do it, I need to run member-if on the tail, but how can I get the tail in, say, mapcar?
2016-04-17T20:54:41Z Bike: you can't get the tail in mapcar. other functions in the mapcar family provide the tail, like maplist.
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2016-04-17T21:16:46Z gnome1: right. I still have to figure out what's the best way to design/program that
2016-04-17T21:17:17Z gnome1: and now remove-if seems to be taking more time than recursing on the list with an accumulator :-|
2016-04-17T21:17:24Z gnome1 is probably doing something wrong
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2016-04-18T02:53:29Z axion: Hello
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2016-04-18T03:00:19Z axion: I must be tired. Why does the last form not require a test for POSITION? http://paste.lisp.org/display/313828
2016-04-18T03:00:33Z axion: I was expected a list of NIL's
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2016-04-18T03:01:14Z Bike: because it's using the elements themselves as keys
2016-04-18T03:01:22Z Bike: (let ((x "a")) (eql x x)) => T
2016-04-18T03:02:10Z axion: Aha, thanks. Yup, tired.
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2016-04-18T04:26:22Z quasi_: Greetings, lispers!
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2016-04-18T06:51:55Z kami``: Good morning.
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2016-04-18T10:12:17Z John[Lisbeth]: Hello, this is my question: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313870
2016-04-18T10:14:08Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: (defmacro defun-items (forms) `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (e) `(defun ,(car e) () ,(cdr e)) forms)))
2016-04-18T10:14:12Z jackdaniel: something like this
2016-04-18T10:14:25Z jackdaniel: (didn't check if it works)
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2016-04-18T10:16:05Z jackdaniel: (&rest forms)
2016-04-18T10:16:09Z jackdaniel: instead of (forms)
2016-04-18T10:16:11Z jackdaniel: I think
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2016-04-18T10:40:21Z John[Lisbeth]: What I basically want to do is pass an empty function name into the first argument of defun
2016-04-18T10:41:30Z John[Lisbeth]: but I can't fathom what type the arg1 of defun is
2016-04-18T10:41:39Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: (defmacro defun-items (&rest forms) `(progn ,@(mapcar (lambda (e) `(defun ,(car e) () ,(cdr e))) forms))) ; works for me
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2016-04-18T10:41:55Z John[Lisbeth]: This is a little to syntatically juicy for me
2016-04-18T10:42:00Z John[Lisbeth]: I am allergic to syntax
2016-04-18T10:42:57Z John[Lisbeth]: Just parsing that might take me 3 hours
2016-04-18T10:43:45Z jackdaniel doesn't understand, but has some work to do. good luk
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2016-04-18T10:43:49Z jackdaniel: s/luk/luck/
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2016-04-18T10:44:11Z John[Lisbeth]: well maybe not. These syntactic elements confuse me: ` ,@
2016-04-18T10:44:22Z jackdaniel: it's part of the basic macrology
2016-04-18T10:44:27Z John[Lisbeth]: and these functions I do not know progn mapcar
2016-04-18T10:44:56Z jackdaniel: I think you should study Common Lisp a little
2016-04-18T10:45:01Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: look them up, all of them are fairly essential
2016-04-18T10:45:03Z ecraven: ` is unquote
2016-04-18T10:45:09Z jackdaniel: minion: tell John[Lisbeth] about pcl
2016-04-18T10:45:09Z minion: John[Lisbeth]: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-04-18T10:45:12Z ecraven: sorry, ` is quasiquote
2016-04-18T10:45:25Z John[Lisbeth]: I have real weird rules about syntax
2016-04-18T10:46:10Z John[Lisbeth]: My thinking is that when you want to introduce complex syntax you parse a string with a regex function
2016-04-18T10:46:26Z John[Lisbeth]: I am beneath even the stage of making toy lisps
2016-04-18T10:46:38Z Zhivago: That sounds like a wrong thought.
2016-04-18T10:47:18Z John[Lisbeth]: For example I could write a scheme interpreter in lisp that compiles to common lisp, but that interpreter could just accept strings of scheme
2016-04-18T10:47:35Z Zhivago: What would that have to do with regular expressoins?
2016-04-18T10:47:42Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: what are the chances of getting that correct, against just adding a few macros to lisp?
2016-04-18T10:47:47Z ecraven: also, performance :)
2016-04-18T10:47:50Z John[Lisbeth]: Or for example rather than include the "language" of http into a language, it is better to interpret http strings
2016-04-18T10:48:01Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: many here would disagree
2016-04-18T10:48:38Z John[Lisbeth]: ecraven: the point was not to add macros but to express that scheme could be achieved in common lisp via parsing strings
2016-04-18T10:48:56Z John[Lisbeth]: similarly you can get awk, sed and perl5/6 functionality in common lisp
2016-04-18T10:49:06Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: yes, but would that be "better" than just adding some macros?
2016-04-18T10:49:19Z John[Lisbeth]: I am not arguing it is better
2016-04-18T10:50:03Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know the word for this but I am of the camp that there should just be a uniform syntax of reading a parentheses, reading the first argument as a function, and then reading the following arguments as arguments to that function.
2016-04-18T10:50:15Z jackdaniel: John[Lisbeth]: if you really want to reach your left pocket with the right hand, then just do (eval (read-from-string (format nil "(defun ~A () ~A)" 'item 3)))
2016-04-18T10:50:21Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: then how would IF work?
2016-04-18T10:50:27Z ecraven: or COND? or DEFUN?
2016-04-18T10:51:05Z John[Lisbeth]: ecraven: not sure what you mean. jackdaniel are you referring to regular expressions?
2016-04-18T10:51:08Z ecraven: unless you want lazy evaluation :) but then this might not be exactly lisp any more
2016-04-18T10:51:26Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: (if t (princ "foo") (princ "bar"))
2016-04-18T10:51:38Z ecraven: now evaluate all parameters and the function.
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2016-04-18T10:58:17Z loke: ecraven: You can do it, assuming you provide a working LAMBDA
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2016-04-18T10:58:42Z ecraven: loke: without making the parameters to IF thunks?
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2016-04-18T10:59:11Z loke: ecraven: Well, no. But with macros, that can be dealt with too :-)
2016-04-18T10:59:31Z ecraven: loke: indeed, but wasn't the point of this to have no macros, no special forms?
2016-04-18T10:59:50Z loke: ecraven: I don't know what the point was. I just wanted to butt in :-)
2016-04-18T10:59:54Z ecraven: <John[Lisbeth]> I don't know the word for this but I am of the camp that there should just be a uniform syntax of reading a parentheses, reading the first argument as a function, and then reading the following arguments as arguments to that function.
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2016-04-18T11:00:04Z ecraven: loke: hehe, just like me 10 minutes earlier :p
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2016-04-18T15:49:30Z John[Lisbeth]: Lets say I have a function foo that is (defun foo (x) (equal x ("hello" 2 placeholder))) where placeholder is any value that is not no value
2016-04-18T15:49:48Z John[Lisbeth]: how can I say that. Basically I want placeholder to have a callable name inside of foo
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2016-04-18T15:51:23Z John[Lisbeth]: So if I pass a value into foo for x that is inside of parentheses like ("hello" 2 t) then when I called placeholder from within foo, placeholder would return true
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2016-04-18T15:51:29Z Jonsky: (equal (car x) "hello")?
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2016-04-18T15:52:08Z John[Lisbeth]: True, that's not a good example
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2016-04-18T15:52:40Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: how does the placeholder thing vary over time? or does it?
2016-04-18T15:52:47Z John[Lisbeth]: Lets say (defun foo (x) (equal x (list "hello" 2 placeholder)))
2016-04-18T15:52:53Z John[Lisbeth]: placeholder does not vary
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2016-04-18T15:53:04Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: when is its value known?
2016-04-18T15:53:15Z John[Lisbeth]: as soon as it gets passed into foo
2016-04-18T15:53:18Z Xach: Or is it meant to be more like a * where the third value of X does not matter?
2016-04-18T15:53:20Z John[Lisbeth]: because I will pass it inside of parentehses
2016-04-18T15:53:30Z John[Lisbeth]: perhaps * is what I want
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2016-04-18T15:53:49Z John[Lisbeth]: would I wite (list "hello" 2 *) ?
2016-04-18T15:54:09Z ggole: Sounds like you want pattern matching, unless I misread that
2016-04-18T15:54:14Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: in that case, that is sometimes called unification or matching. something like (unify x '("hello" 2 ?x))
2016-04-18T15:54:33Z Xach: when matched with ("hello" 2 42) it would result in ((?x . 42))
2016-04-18T15:55:01Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: paip has extensive coverage of how to do something like that.
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2016-04-18T15:55:04Z John[Lisbeth]: lol what happened to *?
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2016-04-18T15:55:20Z Xach: It starts simple and ends up with a nice prolog implementation.
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2016-04-18T15:55:38Z ggole: There are a few pattern matching libraries around. optima, for example.
2016-04-18T15:55:40Z Xach: * is a simple option if you don't care about the values that are matched wildly.
2016-04-18T15:56:01Z ggole: They tend to use _ for ignorable values
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2016-04-18T15:57:24Z John[Lisbeth]: I just need anything to replace placeholder with
2016-04-18T15:57:27Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: anyway, you will have to use something other than EQUAL. you can write something yourself that uses EQUAL for parts of it, or use some library that does pattern matching.
2016-04-18T15:57:37Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: there is nothing built-in that does exactly what you describe.
2016-04-18T15:57:45Z John[Lisbeth]: equal is just an example that simplifies what I am doing
2016-04-18T15:58:02Z John[Lisbeth]: It demonstrates the logic necessary to have a true "placeholder"
2016-04-18T15:58:32Z John[Lisbeth]: meaning if for x I send into foo ("hello" 2 <anything at all>) then it would return true
2016-04-18T15:58:44Z John[Lisbeth]: In otherwords it doesn't care what the third argument is, only that there is one
2016-04-18T15:59:21Z Xach: I understand. To get what you describe, you must write or reuse some code.
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2016-04-18T16:16:01Z Xach: gendl: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-04-18/failure-report/gendl.html#surf and #regression trouble today
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2016-04-18T16:52:49Z phoe_krk: What is the safest way of reading sexprs from a socket?
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2016-04-18T16:59:34Z phoe_krk: Or, actually: How should I secure the informatimago reader to make it usable for accepting arbitrary data from the Internet?
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2016-04-18T17:09:15Z LiquidLemon: Is this a good place to come to to ask a newbie questions?
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2016-04-18T17:09:27Z Bike: sure, go ahead.
2016-04-18T17:11:52Z LiquidLemon: Ok, so I'm reading "Practical Common Lisp" and in one of the examples the author implements a simple database system. I was following along and storing the code in a file and running it with sbcl. I got to the point where the database gets printed to the screen
2016-04-18T17:12:12Z LiquidLemon: I can't figure out how to make it run automatically from the script
2016-04-18T17:12:40Z Bike: "the script"?
2016-04-18T17:13:07Z LiquidLemon: I suppose I should show you the code, gimme a moment
2016-04-18T17:14:39Z LiquidLemon: Well, this is awkward
2016-04-18T17:14:49Z LiquidLemon: I was trying to print an empty database
2016-04-18T17:15:09Z LiquidLemon: I'm dumb. Sorry for wasting your time
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2016-04-18T17:15:20Z Bike: we all make mistakes. glad to be of service
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2016-04-18T17:27:04Z jasom: LiquidLemon: nothing like "rubber duck" debugging, eh?
2016-04-18T17:28:05Z LiquidLemon: Yup
2016-04-18T17:28:20Z LiquidLemon: Happens to me nearly every time I go ask people for help
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2016-04-18T17:31:27Z sjl: is there any way to tell quicklisp's ql:quickload to recompile dependencies that have changed?
2016-04-18T17:31:33Z jasom: LiquidLemon: as long as it involves Common Lisp and isn't "please do my homework for me" all questions like that are fine here
2016-04-18T17:32:02Z sjl: I have a (define-constant +foo+ 1) in file a.lisp, and a (defun test () (print +foo+)) in file b.lisp
2016-04-18T17:32:02Z Xach: sjl: no, but I think you can use asdf's :force option.
2016-04-18T17:32:09Z sjl: the first time I quickload this thing, it works fine
2016-04-18T17:32:48Z sjl: if I then exit sbcl entirely, then change the constant and save the file, then run a fresh sbcl and quickload, it doesn't pick up the change
2016-04-18T17:32:52Z moore33: I thought asdf did that automatically, like "make."
2016-04-18T17:33:09Z jasom: I think asdf will do it even without force
2016-04-18T17:33:13Z LiquidLemon: It would be cool to ever get Lisp homework. I'm learning this for fun
2016-04-18T17:33:30Z sjl: moore33: jasom: it does seem to, for some things
2016-04-18T17:33:58Z Xach: sjl: what does your system definition work?
2016-04-18T17:34:03Z Xach: I mean, look like, not work.
2016-04-18T17:34:06Z jasom: sjl: can you give a complete example for what doesn't work?
2016-04-18T17:34:16Z sjl: let me spin up a minimal example
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2016-04-18T17:34:38Z moore33: sjl: If you believe faré's reams of writing about asdf, it should always work.
2016-04-18T17:35:43Z jasom: I don't rely on it too often; I more often use C-c C-k from slime, but when I've tried it it has worked
2016-04-18T17:35:53Z jasom: and if it doesn't work, you've found an ASDF bug
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2016-04-18T17:41:48Z sjl: still trying to reproduce, this is strange
2016-04-18T17:42:28Z John[Lisbeth]: (defun foo (bar baz) (case bar ("hello" "hello") (otherwise "goodbye"))) then (foo "hello" nil) returns "goodbye"
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2016-04-18T17:42:29Z joga ^H's the bad joke
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2016-04-18T17:43:23Z moore33: John[Lisabeth]: Is that a surprise?
2016-04-18T17:43:29Z Bike: John[Lisbeth]: case compares by eql, and separately allocated strings are not eql
2016-04-18T17:43:52Z John[Lisbeth]: I need to use equal
2016-04-18T17:44:17Z jasom: John[Lisbeth]: then use cond
2016-04-18T17:44:41Z John[Lisbeth]: what if I get the source for case and switch it to equal
2016-04-18T17:44:45Z sjl: I haven't narrowed it down to a trivial test case, but the .asd file for the actual project is at https://bitbucket.org/sjl/bones/src/fb3a334a14f312cffc6d5c9f4e40891e69189458/bones.asd?fileviewer=file-view-default
2016-04-18T17:44:54Z ecraven: quicklisp has string-case
2016-04-18T17:45:29Z sjl: the define-constant is in (file "constants")
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2016-04-18T17:45:41Z sjl: and the function that uses it I'm putting in "dump"
2016-04-18T17:45:48Z sjl: which comes later in the list, and should be serial
2016-04-18T17:47:10Z sjl: when I quickload the system the second time, and just ask for the value of the constant, it shows me the updated value
2016-04-18T17:48:05Z sjl: if I change the file that USES the constant, by adding a newline or something, the quickload properly loads everything
2016-04-18T17:49:01Z sjl: oh good lord
2016-04-18T17:49:17Z sjl: :serial t only affects the first level
2016-04-18T17:49:32Z Xach: dang!
2016-04-18T17:50:04Z sjl: I have to put a :serial t inside each module apparently
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2016-04-18T18:16:31Z Cxcf: How should I write my lisp if I know someone else, who is unfamiliar with lisp, is going to run it? Right now my program is a bunch of functions that I load to SLIME and then a master (loop and do everything I want) function. But I don't think the people I'm sending it to have SLIME
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2016-04-18T18:18:54Z Xach: Cxcf: one option is to save a binary and send the binary.
2016-04-18T18:19:20Z Xach: Cxcf: I'm always curious about such situations...can you share any details?
2016-04-18T18:19:40Z fourier: Cxcf: if you are using SBCL create a binary using save-lisp-and-die and send it
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2016-04-18T18:21:27Z Cxcf: I'm writing the program for a class that lets us use any language we want. But the TA who is grading the assignment is unfamiliar with lisp.
2016-04-18T18:22:54Z LiquidLemon: Sounds like binary is your best option
2016-04-18T18:23:10Z Xach: Cxcf: interesting. so they aren't grading the code, only its response to certain inputs?
2016-04-18T18:24:43Z Cxcf: Xach, they are grading the code, but in case she wants to run it herself. It's been a while since I turned it in and I haven't heard back:/
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2016-04-18T18:25:13Z Xach: Cxcf: interesting. how can you evaluate something that's unfamiliar, I wonder?
2016-04-18T18:25:25Z Cxcf: fourier: I'm not seeing save-lisp-and-die as a tab-completable option:/
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2016-04-18T18:26:25Z Bike: it's sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die
2016-04-18T18:26:31Z sjl: Cxcf: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Function-sb_002dext_003asave_002dlisp_002dand_002ddie
2016-04-18T18:26:36Z Xach: You can't just run it without learning how it works, though.
2016-04-18T18:27:24Z Xach: http://www.zazzle.com/sbcl_save_lisp_and_die_black_t_shirt-235661897435198844
2016-04-18T18:28:06Z fourier: :))
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2016-04-18T18:28:33Z Cxcf: Xach, I know. But when the TA recieves .java or .c programs she can easily run it and check it in addition to looking at the code. I'm trying to offer the same courtesy.
2016-04-18T18:29:20Z Cxcf: sjl: Xach:  thanks:)!
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2016-04-18T18:30:00Z fourier: Cxcf: in worst case you can write a script like "sbcl --load mymain.lisp"
2016-04-18T18:30:26Z fourier: Cxcf: and supply it together with the sources and instructions
2016-04-18T18:31:08Z quasi_: I want that t-shirt. yes. yes.
2016-04-18T18:31:21Z Cxcf: fourier: I like that idea!:) I haven't written any scripts before. Any suggested references?
2016-04-18T18:31:45Z phoe_krk: Cxcf: Well, I write scripts like this.
2016-04-18T18:32:03Z phoe_krk: 1) Write the whole program as I normally would.
2016-04-18T18:32:18Z phoe_krk: 2) (defun main () ...) <- the thing I want done goes here.
2016-04-18T18:32:33Z phoe_krk: 3) Finish the whole script with a single (main) line - so this actually gets invoked and the whole magic gets done.
2016-04-18T18:32:57Z fourier: Cxcf: ^ what he says :)
2016-04-18T18:33:34Z Cxcf: phoe_krk: fourier what do you mean by ""finish the script with a single main line"?
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2016-04-18T18:34:20Z fourier: your last line in .lisp file will be (main)
2016-04-18T18:34:32Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-04-18T18:34:34Z Cxcf: ahhhh, I see
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2016-04-18T18:34:37Z phoe_krk: You know.
2016-04-18T18:34:40Z phoe_krk: When you write a script.
2016-04-18T18:34:48Z fourier: and when you create a script with the only contents "sbcl --load myfile.lisp"
2016-04-18T18:35:01Z phoe_krk: All your DEFVARs, DEFPARAMETERs, DEFUNs, they don't do anything by themselves.
2016-04-18T18:35:14Z phoe_krk: It's like, you prepare the whole party, define all the variables, write all the functions.
2016-04-18T18:35:17Z phoe_krk: It's all ready to be done.
2016-04-18T18:35:24Z phoe_krk: And you make a single command to begin it all:
2016-04-18T18:35:25Z fourier: by script I mean bash script or bat file(if you are on windows)
2016-04-18T18:35:28Z phoe_krk: (party)
2016-04-18T18:35:36Z phoe_krk: And BOOM
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2016-04-18T18:35:55Z Cxcf: hahahaha, phoe_krk . elegantly put
2016-04-18T18:36:11Z phoe_krk: And elegantly written.
2016-04-18T18:36:23Z Cxcf: ^ scripted
2016-04-18T18:36:24Z phoe_krk: A lot of bash and perl scripts are essentially undivided into functions.
2016-04-18T18:36:33Z phoe_krk: Not really scripted anymore.
2016-04-18T18:36:36Z phoe_krk: Written.~
2016-04-18T18:36:42Z Cxcf: ^agreed
2016-04-18T18:36:43Z phoe_krk: It's all functions on functions.
2016-04-18T18:37:03Z phoe_krk: Batch and CMD files are scripts, Bash files are scripts, a lot of Perl is scripts.
2016-04-18T18:37:15Z phoe_krk: Sure thing, you can script in Lisp just as well.
2016-04-18T18:37:32Z phoe_krk: Put everything into DEFVAR/DEFPARAMETER, write everything in the main scope.
2016-04-18T18:37:46Z phoe_krk: But Lisp can do better than that.
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2016-04-18T18:38:50Z phoe_krk: There are two ways of writing things, one is:
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2016-04-18T18:39:01Z phoe_krk: (defun hello () (format t "Hello world!~%")) (hello)
2016-04-18T18:39:02Z phoe_krk: Second is:
2016-04-18T18:39:09Z phoe_krk: (format t "Hello world!~%")
2016-04-18T18:39:14Z phoe_krk: The second is so much simpler.
2016-04-18T18:39:21Z phoe_krk: The first is so much more expandable and extensible.
2016-04-18T18:39:54Z Cxcf: this is enlightening
2016-04-18T18:40:15Z Cxcf: and a bash script is just bash commands in a file with the #!usr/bin/bash line at the top?
2016-04-18T18:40:48Z fourier: Cxcf: yes
2016-04-18T18:41:23Z Cxcf: and if this question isn't too ignorant, the language of those scripts is Unix?
2016-04-18T18:42:12Z fourier: Cxcf: or #!/bin/sh
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2016-04-18T18:42:54Z fourier: Cxcf: http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Bash-Prog-Intro-HOWTO.html
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2016-04-18T18:45:43Z Cxcf: fourier: A Thousand Thankyoo's
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2016-04-18T20:08:58Z emaczen: Do we have any CL to JS compiler that implements CLOS?
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2016-04-18T20:19:13Z jasom: there's a pseudo CLOS for parenscript
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2016-04-18T20:19:45Z jasom: I haven't looked into getting PCL running on cl-js, though it's on my wish list
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2016-04-18T20:58:26Z Cxcf: this might be an #emacs question, but do any of you know how to get the interactive rainbow parens that past-lisp has?
2016-04-18T20:58:59Z Cxcf: I've found rainbow-delimiters, but it's changed the faces of the delimters, not interactively highlighted them
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2016-04-18T21:03:06Z pjb: there was a blog article by lemonodor, I guess he listed the urls.
2016-04-18T21:03:40Z pjb: Cxcf: http://lemonodor.com/archives/001207.html
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2016-04-18T21:10:27Z Cxcf: pjb: that is amazing!
2016-04-18T21:10:35Z Cxcf: extremely creative
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2016-04-18T22:51:14Z mordocai: Anyone know of a "better" telnet client library than telnetlib on quicklisp? https://github.com/brianjcj/telnetlib-for-common-lisp appears to be the source. I think I've already found a bug in it but before I dive in trying to fix it i'd like to know if there are other options.
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2016-04-18T23:29:51Z fiddlerwoaroof: mordocai: depending on what you need, trivial-ssh might be an option too.
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2016-04-18T23:45:57Z mordocai: fiddlerwoaroof: Unfortunately not. Specifically telnet I'm afraid (connecting to a MUD)
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2016-04-19T01:11:05Z fiddlerwoaroof: This is kinda cool: https://github.com/guicho271828/inlined-generic-function/
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2016-04-19T02:02:52Z spacebat`: I just noticed that some constructs are not properly understood by my emacs/slime: #\; does not protect the semicolon so it is highlighted as a comment and paredit insists that parentheses are unbalanced
2016-04-19T02:03:29Z Bike: i do not have the former problem. there might be some contribs to load to fix font lock.
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2016-04-19T02:04:01Z spacebat`: likewise " \") " is mis-parsed as a string followed by a close paren and the start of a new string
2016-04-19T02:04:30Z Bike: works4me again. do you use slime fancy?
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2016-04-19T02:05:02Z spacebat`: yup
2016-04-19T02:06:32Z spacebat`: maybe its something I've done on the elisp side, only noticed yesterday before knocking off, my emacs uptime is 39 days so I'll try a restart, then a -q, etc
2016-04-19T02:07:53Z spacebat`: thanks for checking anyway
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2016-04-19T02:50:34Z erjoalgo: can anyone tell me what's the best way to parse html with xpath in
2016-04-19T02:50:34Z erjoalgo: 	   CL?
2016-04-19T02:51:05Z erjoalgo: I see several libraries but maybe just a simple example
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2016-04-19T02:54:54Z erjoalgo: closure html?
2016-04-19T02:56:52Z erjoalgo: hola hola
2016-04-19T02:59:06Z loke: erjoalgo: Yes
2016-04-19T02:59:32Z loke: erjoalgo: Just load it into the DOM and use plexipus to parse.
2016-04-19T03:00:33Z loke: erjoalgo: Here's some code I wrote that processes XML using Xpath:
2016-04-19T03:00:33Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-solr/blob/master/src/cl-solr.lisp#L147
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2016-04-19T03:01:36Z loke: This helper function might be useful too:
2016-04-19T03:01:39Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/cl-solr/blob/master/src/misc.lisp#L20
2016-04-19T03:03:20Z erjoalgo: thanks, I'll try that
2016-04-19T03:03:54Z DavidGuru: there's a cl-libxml2
2016-04-19T03:04:08Z DavidGuru: wrote by the author of Restas
2016-04-19T03:05:42Z erjoalgo: loke: (this might be a beginner's question) where is the xpath package? did you get it via quicklisp?
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2016-04-19T03:07:10Z DavidGuru: yes, or you can download that and put that in you ASDF registery
2016-04-19T03:09:30Z loke: Yes, Quicklisp. The [package is called "xpath"
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2016-04-19T03:12:33Z DavidGuru: here is a example for using xpath in cl-libxml2, but you can choose what you prefer
2016-04-19T03:12:35Z DavidGuru: https://github.com/archimag/cl-libxml2/blob/master/examples/xpath.lisp
2016-04-19T03:14:45Z loke: DavidGuru: I just realised that libxml2 uses the same XPATH package name as plexipus. That's problematic since it prevents me from loading them both at the same time.
2016-04-19T03:15:25Z DavidGuru: oh OK, didn't know that
2016-04-19T03:15:40Z loke: I just noticed it when I wanted to play with it to see hos it's like.
2016-04-19T03:16:16Z loke: I'll fine a bug on the githubs.
2016-04-19T03:16:19Z loke: File
2016-04-19T03:16:47Z DavidGuru: Well, that's actually a binding, and it has not been updated for a long time
2016-04-19T03:17:20Z DavidGuru: But it just works, I'd used it before for a project
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2016-04-19T03:18:06Z loke: DavidGuru: Nothing wrong with that. What worries me is that I at some point am going to use a library when does depend on libxml2, leaving me with some troubles.
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2016-04-19T03:24:03Z erjoalgo: i'm feeling a bit lazy today: (ql:quickload "'libxml2.xpath") ==> System "'libxml2.xpath" not found
2016-04-19T03:24:06Z erjoalgo: (xpath:define-xpath-function ) ==> Symbol "DEFINE-XPATH-FUNCTION" not found in the XPATH package.
2016-04-19T03:24:29Z erjoalgo: also cxml obviously expects xml, but I'm trying to parse html. So I need to convert html to xml?
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2016-04-19T03:25:00Z drmeister: Let's say you have 1200 random strings that you want to intern - does it make sense to put them in the keyword package - or would you put them in a different package.  I don't like the idea of cluttering up the keyword package.
2016-04-19T03:25:11Z erjoalgo: also is define-xpath-function defining it's own complicated iteration DSL?
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2016-04-19T03:25:56Z loke: erjoalgo: You use cloure-html to parse HTML into a DOM tree
2016-04-19T03:26:10Z loke: erjoalgo: I wrote some code to do that, please let me share it with you:
2016-04-19T03:26:11Z erjoalgo: actually, you can put them in a special package that you can generate dynamically, I ran into this before, let me see if I can find what I did
2016-04-19T03:27:00Z loke: erjoalgo: Here's where I parse the HTML into a DOM. I then use the usual XML and XPATH functions to process it:
2016-04-19T03:27:01Z loke: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style/blob/master/format-html-email/format.lisp#L13
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2016-04-19T03:27:27Z loke: erjoalgo: Here's a place where I search for IMG tags in tghe data: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style/blob/master/format-html-email/format.lisp#L253
2016-04-19T03:27:47Z loke: Here's some more: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style/blob/master/format-html-email/format.lisp#L302
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2016-04-19T03:32:12Z erjoalgo: (make-package (gensym "some-namespace"))
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2016-04-19T03:32:37Z drmeister: erjoalgo: Thank you
2016-04-19T03:32:52Z erjoalgo: then you can (intern "something" package)
2016-04-19T03:33:22Z drmeister: That will work.
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2016-04-19T03:34:30Z erjoalgo: loke: thanks. I was kicked out of a starbucks, but I'll take a look when I get home
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2016-04-19T03:34:47Z spacebat`: Bike: restarting emacs fixed that slime parsing problem, strange I wonder how I got there
2016-04-19T03:34:55Z Bike: cool, weird.
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2016-04-19T03:35:26Z spacebat`: starbucks is famously anti-lisperati
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2016-04-19T03:36:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: spacebat`: lisp programmers all go to local places that nobody has heard of
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2016-04-19T03:37:19Z spacebat`: places they themselves built some time back when they had a spare afternoon
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2016-04-19T03:38:07Z spacebat`: what's the preferred way to send a form from emacs to swank for synchronous evaluation?
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2016-04-19T03:38:37Z spacebat`: I've long used slime-eval but that reads things into *swank-io-package*
2016-04-19T03:38:46Z Petit_Dejeuner: spacebat`: half finished coffee shops with no menu or escape route map
2016-04-19T03:38:48Z spacebat`: which forces me to fully qualify all symbols in the form
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2016-04-19T03:39:27Z spacebat`: I've seen tricks where *swank-io-package* is set to the cl-user or similar useful package
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2016-04-19T03:40:31Z spacebat`: and I'm sure I got that working at some point, but at the moment it is failing
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2016-04-19T03:41:07Z spacebat`: I've also seen advice to use a different function that takes strings, but I was hoping that slime would take care of that for me, hence the use of slime-eval
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2016-04-19T04:00:04Z spacebat`: now I've got on my slime-connected-hook: (slime-eval '(cl:use-package :cl :swank-io-package))
2016-04-19T04:00:19Z spacebat`: and that makes things a bit saner
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2016-04-19T04:03:41Z spacebat`: don't know why this doesn't work consistently (cl:package-name (cl:setf swank::*swank-io-package* (find-package :cl-user)))
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2016-04-19T04:04:17Z spacebat`: I mean, quoting that form to slime-eval
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2016-04-19T05:23:35Z erjoalgo2: (let ((doc (closure-html:parse "<html><head></head><body><p>foo</p></body></html>" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))))
2016-04-19T05:23:35Z erjoalgo2: 	   (xpath:evaluate "//p"  doc)) == #<XPATH:NODE-SET empty {100BE141B3}>
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2016-04-19T05:25:34Z erjoalgo2: if I change to "//h:p" I get undeclared namespace. I'm feeling too tired to figure this out
2016-04-19T05:29:12Z loke: erjoalgo2: You need to use the right namespace declarations
2016-04-19T05:29:44Z loke: erjoalgo2: Look at this: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style/blob/master/format-html-email/format.lisp#L9
2016-04-19T05:29:44Z erjoalgo2: (let ((doc (closure-html:parse "<html><head></head><body><p>foo</p></body></html>" (cxml-dom:make-dom-builder))))
2016-04-19T05:29:45Z erjoalgo2: 	   (xpath:with-namespaces
2016-04-19T05:29:45Z erjoalgo2: 	       (("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" "h" ))
2016-04-19T05:29:48Z erjoalgo2: 	     (xpath:evaluate "//h:p"  doc)))
2016-04-19T05:30:20Z loke: erjoalgo2: It's ("h" "http:...") not the other way raround
2016-04-19T05:30:28Z loke: The URL comes last
2016-04-19T05:30:37Z loke: Look at my example
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2016-04-19T05:31:17Z erjoalgo2: i see. finally I got a non-empty node set
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2016-04-19T05:31:39Z loke: Also, you neet to wrap the parsign phase in the macro call too
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2016-04-19T05:33:04Z erjoalgo2: actually, the above snippet works for me even though closure-html:parse is out the with-namespaces macro
2016-04-19T05:33:33Z erjoalgo2: but thanks. I just wanted to get something simple to work to start, your code was helpful
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2016-04-19T05:34:59Z erjoalgo2: *outside
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2016-04-19T05:37:03Z erjoalgo2: look: also, I almost get your format.lisp to compile except I didn't feel like applying the patch
2016-04-19T05:37:25Z erjoalgo2: loke:
2016-04-19T05:37:31Z loke: erjoalgo2: The patch is only needed when using the application as per designed, to process Outlook emails.
2016-04-19T05:37:53Z loke: Problem is that outlook adds a much of special tags that has a : character in them, which closure-html refuses to parse.
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2016-04-19T05:38:48Z erjoalgo2: I see. I actually have to use outlook at work, so I will probably be using this at some point. It looks good
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2016-04-19T05:39:57Z loke: erjoalgo2: I have used it for years now. Makes working in an outlook-infested company bearable :-)
2016-04-19T05:40:15Z loke: Anyway, time for lunch
2016-04-19T05:40:49Z spacebat`: I missed the link to the patch - relink?
2016-04-19T05:41:49Z erjoalgo2: https://github.com/lokedhs/gnus-outlook-style/blob/master/closure-html.diff
2016-04-19T05:42:02Z spacebat`: thanks
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2016-04-19T06:29:19Z kami: Good morning.
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2016-04-19T08:45:01Z pw_: Hi, anyone use The Stump Window Manager (https://github.com/stumpwm/stumpwm) on mac? do you ever encounter any problems with xquartz?
2016-04-19T08:45:45Z pw_: I tried and got such an error:  > Error: Connection failure to X2816.0 server private/tmp/com.apple.launchd.8cgvujkv4v/org.macosforge.xquartz display 0: Protocol version mismatch
2016-04-19T08:46:25Z pw_: does this mean xquartz X11 version is not supported by xlib of lisp?
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2016-04-19T08:50:52Z loke: pw_: I wasn't even aware that you could use a window manager with it?
2016-04-19T08:51:03Z loke: I thought it hooked into the OSX window manager
2016-04-19T08:52:15Z pw_: loke: hmm, however, I once used Xmonad with it and it worked.
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2016-04-19T08:53:34Z djh: I don't think OS X runs an Xwindows session by default - you might have to run it manually
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2016-04-19T08:54:10Z pw_: btw, the minimal code to reproduce the problem is: (progn (ql:quickload "clx") (xlib:open-default-display))
2016-04-19T08:54:55Z pw_: djh: a xquartz session was started automatically, however, the problem is that it complained about the protocol version mismatch
2016-04-19T08:55:10Z djh: ah yes, I stand corrected
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2016-04-19T08:55:59Z pw_: actually it has nothing to do with stump, xlib is already not working with xquartz
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2016-04-19T09:27:01Z igam: pw_: I have  XQuartz 2.7.8 (xorg-server 1.16.4) ; that error is indeed a compatibility problem between xlib and recent X11R7 servers.  Occurs on Linux X11R7 too.
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2016-04-19T09:27:32Z igam: pw_: you could try to learn about the changes in X11, and update xlib?
2016-04-19T09:28:37Z igam: pw_: the alternative is not easier to implement: run an older X11 in Xnest.  Compiling older system is often more difficult than patch bitrotten libraries.
2016-04-19T09:29:13Z igam: Notice that bitrot is not a property of the library, but of the environment that is rotten and selfish and doesn't maintain compatibility.
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2016-04-19T09:34:02Z DavidGuru: Hi everyone, if want to change the default output fasls location of ASDF, what should I set up?
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2016-04-19T09:39:54Z igam: write a file ~/.config/common-lisp/asdf-output-translations.conf
2016-04-19T09:40:12Z igam: conitaining something likke: (:OUTPUT-TRANSLATIONS :IGNORE-INVALID-ENTRIES (T (:HOME ".cache" "common-lisp" :HOSTNAME :IMPLEMENTATION)) (T (:HOME ".cache" "common-lisp" :IMPLEMENTATION)) :INHERIT-CONFIGURATION) ; where you can customize the paths.
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2016-04-19T09:41:06Z DavidGuru: well, it's not that straight-forward as I expected, but thanks anyway :D
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2016-04-19T09:42:14Z igam: DavidGuru: there may be more straigh-forward, but more legacy ways, check asdf manual.
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2016-04-19T09:50:26Z DavidGuru: OK, thanks :)
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2016-04-19T11:40:00Z John[Lisbeth]: This doesn't compile and I am unaware why: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314012
2016-04-19T11:40:25Z John[Lisbeth]: hold on that may be the wrong source
2016-04-19T11:41:29Z John[Lisbeth]: here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314013
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2016-04-19T11:42:08Z John[Lisbeth]: Stack-overflow says that I am not able to use symbols as cases in the case function, but in my testing I seem to be able to use symbols for that just fine
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2016-04-19T11:44:18Z Zhivago: Well, that's stack overflow for you ...
2016-04-19T11:44:24Z John[Lisbeth]: iknorite
2016-04-19T11:44:27Z Zhivago: Did they say why?
2016-04-19T11:44:27Z John[Lisbeth]: I blame oracle
2016-04-19T11:44:33Z John[Lisbeth]: let me fetch it
2016-04-19T11:44:42Z John[Lisbeth]: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5510317/common-lisp-case-and-quoted-elements
2016-04-19T11:45:02Z John[Lisbeth]: All I have done is load the source I sent above into slime, there is no other script
2016-04-19T11:45:17Z John[Lisbeth]: Let me paste you my compiler error
2016-04-19T11:46:46Z Zhivago: Well, they're quite right, and you misrepresented them.
2016-04-19T11:46:47Z |3b|: you can use symbols in case, but you are using lists of the form (quote symbol), not just symbols
2016-04-19T11:47:00Z Zhivago: They didn't say that you can't use symbols as cases ... what _did_ they say?
2016-04-19T11:47:23Z drmeister: (type-of (sin 3)) always returns SINGLE-FLOAT?  Or is there something that controls the type of the result?
2016-04-19T11:47:59Z |3b|: and now that i look at the link, i'm glad i didn't bother to actually type out pretty much the same thing myself :/
2016-04-19T11:48:00Z John[Lisbeth]: |3b| where am I using lists of the form (quote symbol) ?
2016-04-19T11:48:17Z lieven: drmeister: give it an argument of type double-float and it will return double-floats
2016-04-19T11:48:23Z |3b|: (read-from-string "'symbol") => (quote symbol)
2016-04-19T11:48:37Z Zhivago: 'x is (quote x)
2016-04-19T11:48:39Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: usually, implementation give an error message.  Why don't you read it to know why it doesn't compile?
2016-04-19T11:49:00Z drmeister: lieven: Sorry - I should have been more explicit.   If the argument is an integer
2016-04-19T11:49:02Z |3b|: ' is a reader macro that reads as a list containing the symbol CL:QUOTE and the form READ from the characters following the ' character
2016-04-19T11:49:23Z |3b|: in this case that form is a symbol
2016-04-19T11:49:40Z drmeister: Does (type-of (sin <an-integer>)) always return a SINGLE-FLOAT?
2016-04-19T11:49:48Z lieven: drmeister: clhs 12.1.3.3
2016-04-19T11:50:02Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: for exeample, ccl says: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314013#1
2016-04-19T11:50:24Z lieven: drmeister: an implementation is allowed to special case and return rationals for exact rational values
2016-04-19T11:51:04Z drmeister: Thank you!
2016-04-19T11:51:31Z igam: that would only be (sin 0) -> 0 then.
2016-04-19T11:52:04Z igam: because how would sin be able to know π from 3.141592653589793D0 ?
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2016-04-19T11:52:49Z John[Lisbeth]: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314014
2016-04-19T11:52:50Z |3b| wonders why i'm continuing to type in the exact same thing the stackoverflow link said
2016-04-19T11:52:52Z John[Lisbeth]: that works just fine
2016-04-19T11:52:59Z lieven: igam: yeah there might be some values of (sin #c(a b)) that apply
2016-04-19T11:53:16Z igam: perhaps, I've not considered complex numbers.
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2016-04-19T11:53:45Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: you can annotate a lisppaste!
2016-04-19T11:54:03Z |3b|: John[Lisbeth]: where by 'fine' you mean "returns "hello" if you pass it 'quote"?
2016-04-19T11:54:07Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: try: (some-case-logic 'quote) and ponder
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2016-04-19T11:59:18Z igam: It's strange how some people, when they hear "lisp", start to write quotes everywhere…
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2016-04-19T11:59:58Z John[Lisbeth]: It is strange how 'quote prints "hello" however this function works how I want regardless of whether or not 'quote produces the first case http://paste.lisp.org/display/314015
2016-04-19T12:00:06Z John[Lisbeth]: because I do not have an input called 'quote
2016-04-19T12:00:12Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: also, ponder on: (case nil (nil 'hi) (t 'gotcha)) #| --> gotcha |#
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2016-04-19T12:00:27Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't comprehend that sytnax
2016-04-19T12:01:00Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: the syntax for the clauses is: normal-clause::= (keys form*)
2016-04-19T12:01:00Z igam:  
2016-04-19T12:01:13Z igam: and keys is defined as: keys---a designator for a list of objects.
2016-04-19T12:01:17Z John[Lisbeth]: I do not understand why one compiles and the other doesn't http://paste.lisp.org/display/314013 http://paste.lisp.org/display/314015
2016-04-19T12:01:47Z igam: a designator for a list is either a list, or a symbol denoting a list containing only that symbol.
2016-04-19T12:02:01Z White_Flame: why not quote 'otherwise and see if that makes it clearer?
2016-04-19T12:02:04Z igam: Because in one case, you have duplicate keys!
2016-04-19T12:02:28Z John[Lisbeth]: I do not have a 'otherwise symbol in my program
2016-04-19T12:02:33Z White_Flame: right, why not?
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2016-04-19T12:02:44Z igam: Try to compile: (case x ((a b) 1) ((a c) 2) ((a d) 3))  vs.  (case x ((b) 1) ((c) 2) ((d) 3))
2016-04-19T12:02:47Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't know. I realize you are trying to show me something there but I don't know enough lisp to catch onto it
2016-04-19T12:03:04Z White_Flame: as igam is saying more technically, the key can either be a single item, or a list of items
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2016-04-19T12:03:26Z White_Flame: 'hello is just a macro for (quote hello).  So you're giving it a list of 2 keys to match for "hello"
2016-04-19T12:03:43Z White_Flame: the case keys are NOT evaluated.  The literal source code is used as the keys
2016-04-19T12:03:51Z John[Lisbeth]: I realize that it changes into (quote 'symbol) however it works in my other code example
2016-04-19T12:04:03Z White_Flame: no, (quote symbol).  (quote 'symbol) would be (quote (quote symbol))
2016-04-19T12:04:04Z John[Lisbeth]: and I don't know why it doesn't work in my main program
2016-04-19T12:04:07Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: type: (ql:quickload :com.informatimago.common-lisp) and compare the outputs of (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '(case x ((x) 1))) vs (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '(case x ((x) 1)))
2016-04-19T12:04:19Z John[Lisbeth]: sorry my mistake I didn't mean to type the '
2016-04-19T12:05:08Z igam: Sorry, one of them must be: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '(case x ('x 1)))
2016-04-19T12:05:13Z igam: (bad copy-and-paste)
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2016-04-19T12:06:06Z White_Flame: your compilation errors are well listed.  the key "quote" is duplicated, and you have (t nil) at the end, probably a nesting error that's being evaluated as a function call
2016-04-19T12:06:52Z White_Flame: and (main 'fetch-cord (argument)) is trying to call "argument" as a function, which is also incorrect
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2016-04-19T12:08:27Z White_Flame: yeah, (t nil) is completely outside your case statement
2016-04-19T12:08:38Z White_Flame: so there's all your errors, I believe
2016-04-19T12:09:41Z igam: John[Lisbeth]:  so in English, case doesn't take expressions for the list of keys, but a literal list in the program source.  That's why you should not use quote there, (unless of course, you want to test for CL:QUOTE, or whatever the #\' reader macro currently returns).
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2016-04-19T12:10:20Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: (case piece ((white-rook white-knight … white-pawn) 'white) (otherwise 'black))
2016-04-19T12:10:28Z Zhivago: It's just like switch in C, where you can't write case foo(): for the same reason.
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2016-04-19T12:12:20Z John[Lisbeth]: where is this t nil thing you guys are referring to. Are you talking about at the very end of my main function?
2016-04-19T12:13:37Z John[Lisbeth]: White_Flame:  seems to know what is going on but I didn't understand them
2016-04-19T12:14:09Z John[Lisbeth]: I don't understand which key is dupilcated
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2016-04-19T12:15:08Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: CL:QUOTE is duplicated!
2016-04-19T12:15:24Z John[Lisbeth]: what line duplicates CL:QUOTE
2016-04-19T12:15:42Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: run: (com.informatimago.common-lisp.picture.cons-to-ascii:draw-list '(case x ('x 1) ('y 20 ('z 3)))) ; and see how QUOTE appears in the 3 key lists!
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2016-04-19T12:16:02Z igam: All! You have CL:QUOTE on (almost) all lines!
2016-04-19T12:16:24Z John[Lisbeth]: So you are saying every single case breaks the rule
2016-04-19T12:16:28Z igam: Yes.
2016-04-19T12:16:33Z John[Lisbeth]: then why does it work in my example?
2016-04-19T12:17:00Z igam: And (case ('white rook 'white) …) tries to evaluate ('white rook 'white) as a call, but (quote white) is not the name of a function so it's also a program-error!
2016-04-19T12:17:15Z igam: In your example, it does not do what you think it does!
2016-04-19T12:17:28Z igam: Since  (some-case-logic 'quote) --> "hello" !!!
2016-04-19T12:17:32Z John[Lisbeth]: I am trying to do what ennumerables do in c
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2016-04-19T12:17:55Z igam: In C, you don't "quote" your enums in switch!
2016-04-19T12:18:12Z John[Lisbeth]: I am not trying to quote anything
2016-04-19T12:18:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I just want an enumerable
2016-04-19T12:18:24Z John[Lisbeth]: I relize that 'symbol is defined as (quote symbol)
2016-04-19T12:18:26Z igam: But you're quoting everything.
2016-04-19T12:18:26Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: in C enumerables are integers
2016-04-19T12:18:27Z Zhivago: Then stop writing '.
2016-04-19T12:19:00Z Zhivago: (case 'a (a 1) (b 2)) <- what does this evaluate to?
2016-04-19T12:19:09Z John[Lisbeth]: in c you can write an ennumerable as a nem
2016-04-19T12:19:11Z John[Lisbeth]: name
2016-04-19T12:19:16Z John[Lisbeth]: I was told in lisp you could do this by doing 'name
2016-04-19T12:19:22Z igam: in lisp you can write an enumerable as name.
2016-04-19T12:19:24Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: that information is incorrect
2016-04-19T12:19:30Z igam: You've been told wrong.
2016-04-19T12:19:44Z ecraven: well, partially correct :)
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2016-04-19T12:19:59Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: It may help to use keywords for your lisp enums.
2016-04-19T12:20:02Z ecraven: you need to understand what symbols are, and when to quote them (with ') in order to understand how to correctly write that CASE
2016-04-19T12:20:33Z ecraven: also, maybe use keywords for enums
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2016-04-19T12:20:52Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: as a rule of thumb, always write the parentheses for the keys lists in case.
2016-04-19T12:21:16Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: instead of writing (case x (a 1) (b 2)), write (case x ((a) 1) ((b) 2) ((c d e) 3))
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2016-04-19T12:22:15Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: if you apply this rule, then 1- (case x ((nil) 0)) will be correct, 2- (case x (('x) 1) (('y) 2)) will compile (still not doing what you think it does, but at least it'll be compilable code).
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2016-04-19T12:23:09Z igam: Notice tha (case x (('y) 2)) has the same problem than (case x ("y") 2) for basically the same reason.
2016-04-19T12:23:34Z igam: (and this not because one has a QUOTE and the other a double QUOTE ;-))
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2016-04-19T12:24:54Z John[Lisbeth]: key values sort of solve the problem
2016-04-19T12:25:05Z igam: What?
2016-04-19T12:26:44Z John[Lisbeth]: (defun cases () (list case1: 0 case2: 1 casen: n...)
2016-04-19T12:27:29Z John[Lisbeth]: But that doesn't exactly solve it because then I have to use getf
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2016-04-19T12:28:14Z igam: yes.
2016-04-19T12:28:21Z igam: It'd be faster with CASE.
2016-04-19T12:29:23Z igam: We assume that the compilers are able to use O(1) branch selection even when we use symbols as case key.
2016-04-19T12:29:26Z John[Lisbeth]: as in : (case input (0 (...)) (2 (...)) (n (...)))
2016-04-19T12:29:40Z igam: If you have small integers then you can use a vector!
2016-04-19T12:30:06Z flip214: "GOTO x" ;)
2016-04-19T12:30:15Z loofee: Is there some packages that can compress images like jepg?
2016-04-19T12:30:30Z loofee: jpeg
2016-04-19T12:30:33Z igam: IIRC, we have a  JPEG reader and writer in som elibrary, yes.
2016-04-19T12:31:01Z igam: https://www.google.fr/search?q=common+lisp+jpeg
2016-04-19T12:31:17Z loofee: thanks very much
2016-04-19T12:31:20Z varjag: (ql:quickload :cl-jpeg)
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2016-04-19T12:34:31Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: if you want to be sure to get O(1), you could indeed use small integers instead of symbols.  For example (defconstant white-rook 1) (defconstant white-bishop 2) …  But then you cannot use the symbols in the case.  If you compile and load the file containing the constants before compiling the source file, or if you put the defconstant in an eval-when form, then you may use (case x (#.white-rook …) (#.white-bishop … )…) but
2016-04-19T12:34:31Z igam: that's untasty. What you'd do in that case, is to go thru the vectors.
2016-04-19T12:34:47Z igam: (aref #(white white white … white black black black) piece)
2016-04-19T12:35:10Z igam: here you'd get O(1) with a very small constant.
2016-04-19T12:35:14Z John[Lisbeth]: I think I am going to abandone the symbols because they are clearly not enums
2016-04-19T12:35:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I will use pain ints instead and use comments so I remember which is which
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2016-04-19T12:35:49Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: why don't use defconstant as I just shown you?
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2016-04-19T12:36:39Z ecraven: John[Lisbeth]: why not use keyword symbols?
2016-04-19T12:36:41Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: also, I'm mentionning O(1), but most probably your code doesn't justify any such optimization.
2016-04-19T12:36:49Z ecraven: (case x (:foo 1) (:bar 2))
2016-04-19T12:37:02Z ecraven: no need to quote them, and they are better than just integers
2016-04-19T12:37:07Z igam: Well, one could also write (case x (':foo 1) (':bar 2)) :-)
2016-04-19T12:37:18Z John[Lisbeth]: I'll try keyword symbols and see if they work
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2016-04-19T12:43:17Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: symbols work just fine, as long as you stop using the quote in the case key lists!
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2016-04-19T12:55:16Z jdz: igam: your CASE example is wrong; it's the same as (case x ((quote :foo) 1) ((quote :bar) 2)), and this means that QUOTE is duplicated in both clauses
2016-04-19T12:55:34Z jdz: SBCL being the nice thing it is will tell you this
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2016-04-19T12:56:29Z loofee: I download :cl-jpeg, and run code like (encode-image "/home/tmp/xx.jpg" (decode-image "/home/tmp/mm.jpg") 3 253 335), but the result image can't be opened. Is there anything wrong?
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2016-04-19T12:59:35Z loofee: I just want to reduce a jpeg image to a smaller size, any help? thanks.
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2016-04-19T12:59:48Z varjag: it doesn't resize images for you
2016-04-19T13:00:26Z loofee: Any way to do this?
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2016-04-19T13:02:10Z varjag: loofee: there are some image manipulation libraries around
2016-04-19T13:02:20Z varjag: e.g. https://github.com/slyrus/opticl
2016-04-19T13:02:37Z varjag: there's an example of using it along with cl-jpeg
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2016-04-19T13:03:22Z varjag: but check if it actually does image scaling first
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2016-04-19T13:04:00Z loofee: varjag: ok, I'll have a try.
2016-04-19T13:04:02Z igam: jdz: yes, I was sarcastic!
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2016-04-19T13:09:17Z jdz: that will teach me jumping into the middle of other people's conversations! (well, it has not succeeded so far, but who knows)
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2016-04-19T13:15:09Z igam: jdz: it's ok, it's good to undo sarcasm on irc :-)
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2016-04-19T13:24:05Z dwchandler: Ah, det är en vacker dag!
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2016-04-19T14:18:04Z arademaker: hi all, we are stuck in a problem here, any idea of a solution for http://stackoverflow.com/questions/36720381/sublis-and-splicing
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2016-04-19T14:29:02Z erjoalgo2: how do I print the html content of a  RUNE-DOM::ELEMENT ?
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2016-04-19T15:35:49Z John[Lisbeth]: My compiler says (in defun main (argument) caught style-warning: undefined function: argument http://paste.lisp.org/display/314025
2016-04-19T15:35:59Z John[Lisbeth]: This doesn't make sense to me because main has two arguments
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2016-04-19T15:36:42Z jdz: check last line
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2016-04-19T15:37:13Z jdz: also, the style warning should have told you where exactly the problem is
2016-04-19T15:37:32Z John[Lisbeth]: I am new to lisp
2016-04-19T15:37:46Z John[Lisbeth]: where can I find the style warnings?
2016-04-19T15:40:37Z nzambe: John[Lisbeth]: I think you need (list argument) on the last line or '(argument), noob so i might be wrong on that
2016-04-19T15:42:49Z igam: John[Lisbeth]: White_Flame told you already,
2016-04-19T15:42:54Z igam: --> <White_Flame> and (main 'fetch-cord (argument)) is trying to call "argument" as a function, which is also incorrect
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2016-04-19T15:44:50Z John[Lisbeth]: I changed it to (main 'fetch-cord argument) but I am still getting similar errors
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2016-04-19T15:45:11Z Bike: how similar
2016-04-19T15:45:21Z Bike: oh, you do (argument) in :fetch-cord too
2016-04-19T15:45:49Z Bike: when it tells you "undefined function ARGUMENT" look for calls to "ARGUMENT"
2016-04-19T15:46:50Z John[Lisbeth]: pretty similar
2016-04-19T15:46:51Z John[Lisbeth]: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314026
2016-04-19T15:47:14Z Bike: as i said, you have another (argument) in the function
2016-04-19T15:47:32Z John[Lisbeth]: good call
2016-04-19T15:47:59Z John[Lisbeth]: emacs says I do not
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2016-04-19T15:48:18Z Bike: it's right there. "(cdr (cdr (argument)))"
2016-04-19T15:48:34Z John[Lisbeth]: lol I just discovered this
2016-04-19T15:49:07Z jdz: John[Lisbeth]: what, the search functionality in Emacs?
2016-04-19T15:49:49Z jdz: i've also noticed that reading error messages carefully usually saves a lot of poking around
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2016-04-19T15:50:46Z John[Lisbeth]: ok everything working. jdz I was searching for the wrong thing
2016-04-19T15:50:58Z John[Lisbeth]: tyvm for your help fellaz
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2016-04-19T18:08:52Z jasom: John[Lis`: FWIW, if you use slime to compile you can use M-p M-n to cycle through the locations of any notes, warnings, or errors.
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2016-04-19T18:10:48Z Cymew: Xach: I just got an email from paypal that I had sent you money, and wondered what that was. Then I saw "Quicklisp supporter club subscription". :) Many thanks for Quicklisp!!
2016-04-19T18:11:23Z Cymew: Good to get a reminder, even thought it's not Thanksgivning for a while yet.
2016-04-19T18:11:28Z Cymew: :)
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2016-04-19T18:27:23Z John[Lisbeth]: Can I take :symbol1 and :symbol2 and bind them together into some kind of :symbol1-bind:symbol2 so I can pass them as one argument?
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2016-04-19T18:27:49Z eschulte: is there a way to get the symbol name of a function, i.e., the inverse of symbol-function?
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2016-04-19T18:28:40Z Bicyclidine: no. you can use function-lambda-expression but there's no actual requirement for that information to be stored.
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2016-04-19T18:29:51Z eschulte: Bicyclidine: thanks
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2016-04-19T18:30:38Z Bicyclidine: John[Lisbeth]: i don't think i understand what you think this would do. could you give an example of how this would work?
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2016-04-19T18:34:21Z John[Lisbeth]: It could take the bits of one piece of data and the bits from the other piece of data and append one to the other
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2016-04-19T18:36:55Z John[Lisbeth]: I am trying to accomplish something similar to ennumerables in c, so I don't care what the side effects or the returned value of the :symbol1-bind-symbol2 is
2016-04-19T18:37:30Z Bicyclidine: that doesn't sound like enums at all. do you mean a bitfield?
2016-04-19T18:37:42Z John[Lisbeth]: possibly
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2016-04-19T18:41:48Z Bicyclidine: okay, if you do mean something like a bitfield, then you could either actually use a bitfield, or pass a list of symbols, or probably something else.
2016-04-19T18:42:23Z Bicyclidine: like for example, if you had (defun render (color) ...), color would be a list containing some combination of :red, :green, or :blue, like (:red :blue) for instance. then to see if you'd draw red you'd do (find :red color).
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2016-04-19T19:14:01Z warweasle: Is there a way to shadow a symbol under a new name?
2016-04-19T19:14:16Z phoe_krk is confirmed for ELS!
2016-04-19T19:14:35Z rme: phoe_krk: See you there!
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2016-04-19T19:15:38Z Bicyclidine: warweasle: you can make a new binding that shadows one in above environments, if that's what you mean
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2016-04-19T19:16:04Z phoe_krk: rme: See you there!
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2016-04-19T19:17:26Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: I think so. What's the best way to do that? I've heard giving a function 2 names might be inefficient.
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2016-04-19T19:18:36Z Bicyclidine: if you mean giving an object two different names in the same space, that's not shadowing
2016-04-19T19:19:02Z Bicyclidine: to do that, you can do, like, (setf (fdefinition 'bar) (fdefinition 'foo)) to make #'bar the same as #'foo
2016-04-19T19:20:26Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: In this case, I want to use sb-cga:matrix* to m4:m* while keeping both.
2016-04-19T19:21:43Z Bicyclidine: then do the fdefinition thing.
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2016-04-19T19:22:52Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: So inside m4: do a (setf (fdefinition 'm*) (fdefinition 'sb-cga:matrix*))?
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2016-04-19T19:23:05Z Bicyclidine: sure.
2016-04-19T19:23:12Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: Thanks!
2016-04-19T19:23:33Z Bicyclidine: by "inside" i assume you mean in the package
2016-04-19T19:25:08Z warweasle: Bicyclidine: Yes. Then I can export it as normal.
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2016-04-19T19:31:10Z Xach: gendl: did you see the surf and regression problems?
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2016-04-19T19:42:37Z drmeister: Hey lispers.
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2016-04-19T19:43:48Z drmeister: We shaved 50 minutes off of Clasp build times in the last two days.  Currently it's 170 min on a reasonable Linux system.  That's using the MPS garbage collector.
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2016-04-19T19:44:45Z drmeister: It turned out there were a lot of interpreted closures being created because some changes I made to CLOS to eliminate special variables broke an optimization.
2016-04-19T19:45:19Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Are you online?
2016-04-19T19:46:12Z drmeister: minion: memo for jackdaniel: I haven't gotten the CLOS diff to you yet because there were still some problems that needed to be fixed.   I'll give them a few days to shake out.
2016-04-19T19:46:12Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell jackdaniel when he/she/it next speaks.
2016-04-19T19:48:08Z jackdaniel: drmeister: right. take your time, and if you won't find some for doing it, just let me know when it's finished and which branch should I take to carefully compare common part
2016-04-19T19:48:08Z minion: jackdaniel, memo from drmeister: I haven't gotten the CLOS diff to you yet because there were still some problems that needed to be fixed.   I'll give them a few days to shake out.
2016-04-19T19:48:14Z jackdaniel: minion: thank you
2016-04-19T19:48:14Z minion: you're welcome
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2016-04-19T19:54:25Z drmeister: jackdaniel: Sure.
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2016-04-19T20:11:55Z fouric: Question from a semi-new Lisper: is there any way that I can get (inferred) rich-typing in Common Lisp, as described in this article? (https://bsamuels.net/2013/11/20/static-typing.html)
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2016-04-19T20:12:52Z fouric: Ideally, I would be able to tell my Lisp compiler that it takes two variables with type `meter` and returns a value of type `meter-squared`, and have the compiler complain if I pass it a value known to be a `second` (or whatever)
2016-04-19T20:13:30Z fouric: (er, "tell my Lisp complier that *I have a function* that takes...")
2016-04-19T20:13:45Z JuanDaugherty: ur familiar with CLOS, right?
2016-04-19T20:14:20Z fouric: A tiny bit, I'm still enamoured with the idea of using closures and message-passing and haven't really poked at CLOS much yet
2016-04-19T20:14:29Z JuanDaugherty: ah
2016-04-19T20:15:10Z JuanDaugherty: well lisp is a good lang for doing your own thing like that
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2016-04-19T20:15:48Z JuanDaugherty: if you color within the lines though you'd do it in the received object/type system
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2016-04-19T20:16:13Z JuanDaugherty: also there's like some pkgs/libs of additional interest if you look for them
2016-04-19T20:16:15Z White_Flame: however, I'm not sure there's a way to put units on raw numbers.  You'll have to wrap them in objects.  There are types for things like "integer between 100 and 200", but not units
2016-04-19T20:16:18Z JuanDaugherty: *likely
2016-04-19T20:17:51Z fouric: Hm...
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2016-04-19T20:18:36Z fouric: How efficient would said wrapping be? Is, say, SBCL likely to just optimize away the wrapper if I have a function "add" that takes two structs (or whatever) that just contain integers?
2016-04-19T20:19:22Z dwchandler: Hahaha. Googling "common lisp hindley-milner" gives a 12 year old comp.lang.lisp question by Erann Gat asking if anyone knows, and a follow-on question by Peter Seibel.
2016-04-19T20:20:05Z JuanDaugherty: fouric, what dwchandler is relevant to what you asked about if that isn't clear
2016-04-19T20:20:14Z JuanDaugherty: *said is
2016-04-19T20:20:26Z fouric: Right, looking for post now
2016-04-19T20:20:45Z prxq: fouric: you can do that dynamically, i.e. at run time, but will have a pretty hard time if you want it to be enforced at compile time.
2016-04-19T20:20:50Z dwchandler: http://comp.lang.lisp.narkive.com/j7g0mMMN/hindley-milner-in-common-lisp
2016-04-19T20:20:57Z fouric: (I actually did Google this a few times before coming here; I didn't get anything useful, which makes me believe that I don't know enough to know what to ask Google)
2016-04-19T20:20:57Z dwchandler: it's not that useful, though
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2016-04-19T20:21:40Z prxq: istr there was a units-aware library somewhere, maybe on cliki?
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2016-04-19T20:26:45Z JuanDaugherty: fouric some people would say what you wanna do is illogical due to the static/dynamic splitting
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2016-04-19T20:27:31Z JuanDaugherty: which lisp/cl falls on the dynamic side of
2016-04-19T20:27:50Z fouric: Illogical, or impractical?
2016-04-19T20:28:03Z JuanDaugherty: but the thing you wanna do is generally done in static ones
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2016-04-19T20:28:20Z JuanDaugherty: because of the flexibility of lisp, you prolly could do it
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2016-04-19T20:28:46Z prxq: fouric: if you want it at run time, it is reasonably easy. If you want the checking at compile time, it's pretty hard.
2016-04-19T20:28:49Z JuanDaugherty: imho, it's aesthestically inadvisable for that lang family/purpose reason
2016-04-19T20:29:29Z prxq: JuanDaugherty: actually, it's pretty ok as a safety device.
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2016-04-19T20:29:44Z fouric: prxq! (pardon my auto-complete char, it's "!") Well, I know that it would be very difficult for *all code*
2016-04-19T20:29:57Z fouric: I'm just interested in seeing if I can add *some* rich-typing and type-checking
2016-04-19T20:30:02Z fouric: Just to make things a bit easier
2016-04-19T20:30:06Z JuanDaugherty: prxq, y, I just said aesthetically. DIdn't mean something solid couldn't be done.
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2016-04-19T20:30:23Z fouric: Also, how would I do it at run-time?
2016-04-19T20:30:25Z Bicyclidine: i'd do the dynamic struct thing and go from there. by which i mean, let someone else do it, like https://github.com/Ramarren/unit-formula
2016-04-19T20:30:34Z fouric: I'll take run-time checking if that's all that I Can get.
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2016-04-19T20:31:19Z prxq: fouric: basically, use a generic arithmetic setup, and have a struct. with a magnitude and an units part. The trick is to use prime numbers for the units, and to compose them into fractions.
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2016-04-19T20:32:32Z prxq: you have to overload +, -, etc.
2016-04-19T20:33:44Z fouric: How would I do that overloading? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/LTxR2mAEu-g says that the spec forbids it...
2016-04-19T20:34:09Z prxq: here there is some code: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~fateman/generic/
2016-04-19T20:34:32Z prxq: basically, you have to shadow and redefine them in your own package.
2016-04-19T20:35:39Z prxq: wow that's... a bit untidy
2016-04-19T20:36:03Z fouric: Hm...that *sounds* like it would kill my integer arithmetic performance, will it really not, or is that something that I just have to accept?
2016-04-19T20:36:48Z prxq: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Building-Algebra-Systems-by-Overloading-Lisp-Fateman/50b43684fff78c8f566cbf92aba0e3fafbe5208a
2016-04-19T20:36:55Z prxq: fouric: i fear so, yes.
2016-04-19T20:36:56Z fouric: (I'm interested in numerical unit checking for game development, and rich-typing in general for most of my applications)
2016-04-19T20:37:15Z prxq: fouric: http://www.adacore.com/adaanswers/gems/gem-136-how-tall-is-a-kilogram/
2016-04-19T20:38:00Z prxq: fouric: you could use a slow, checked arithmetic for testing, and the fast unchecked one for the final implementation.
2016-04-19T20:38:45Z fouric: That sounds like a good idea.
2016-04-19T20:39:34Z fouric: ...would using an "add" macro that could be told to either output slow, type-checking code for wrapped numbers or "+" for bare numbers be a good or a bad idea?
2016-04-19T20:39:46Z prxq: but! you would probably advance much faster with little trouble if you just ignore the issue altogether :-)
2016-04-19T20:39:59Z Bicyclidine: i would just define your-package:+ and then put a compiler macro on it.
2016-04-19T20:40:19Z prxq: fouric: for example.
2016-04-19T20:40:20Z Bicyclidine: have some compile time switch saying whether to just use actual arithmetic.
2016-04-19T20:40:44Z Bicyclidine: well, but it would be kind of weird the type erasure.
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2016-04-19T20:42:49Z fouric: Meh
2016-04-19T20:43:38Z fouric: Well, if there's no easy way to do it, I suppose that I'll just have to be more careful about what data I'm giving to my functions.
2016-04-19T20:44:18Z prxq: fouric: frankly, it probably is not worth the effort, not even in languages like Ada that provide that built in. Unit mismatches don't usually get past normal testing.
2016-04-19T20:44:27Z prxq: unless it's the mars express :-)
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2016-04-19T20:47:04Z prxq: oh it was the mars surveyor
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2016-04-19T20:47:24Z Bicyclidine: you could say the gimli glider. sounds like lord of the rings
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2016-04-19T21:05:33Z Firedancer: How do I jump with Slime to function definition? There is M-. command, but that doesn't seem to work if I try it inside function call i.e (test-function 1 2) and try to jump to definition of the function test-function
2016-04-19T21:06:32Z Bicyclidine: it should work. depending on where your cursor is you'll have to enter the name of the function in the minibuffer.
2016-04-19T21:07:01Z jdz: Firedancer: is the code loaded?
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2016-04-19T21:08:20Z Firedancer: Should be. If I just write "test-function" without brackets and use M-. on that it works
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2016-04-19T21:09:27Z jdz: that sounds weird
2016-04-19T21:09:32Z Bicyclidine: okay, so what do you mean by "doesn't work"
2016-04-19T21:09:50Z jdz: in both cases you have your cursor on the name, not the parenthesis?
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2016-04-19T21:10:19Z Firedancer: yes jdz
2016-04-19T21:12:00Z Firedancer: Bicyclidine: It complains "Symbol's function definition is void: equalp" when I am trying to use in (test-function 1 2) case, but jumps to the defun line if I use the command in plain "test-function" case
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2016-04-19T21:12:31Z Bicyclidine: interesting. maybe there's a version mismatch in emacs somewhere.
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2016-04-19T21:13:51Z Bicyclidine: i'd try upgrading slime and your lisp implementation, i guess.
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2016-04-19T21:15:44Z Bicyclidine: looks like axion had the same problem last october.
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2016-04-19T21:22:05Z Firedancer: Well updating didn't seem to help, but thanks anyway. Well I have to look into it more tomorrow
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2016-04-19T21:24:39Z axion: what is that?
2016-04-19T21:25:37Z axion: Oh yes, there was a bug in the version of slime melpa had at that time. I switched to Sly around the same time and am much happier
2016-04-19T21:26:05Z axion: but a previous slime commit wasn't affected
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2016-04-19T21:27:25Z Firedancer: heh, yes it seems that I don't have that problem with Sly
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2016-04-19T21:58:28Z fouric: Question: How do I get Emacs to color/indent my macros the same way as builtin/library macros?
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2016-04-19T22:07:43Z le4fy: is LABELS a primitive or is it possible to implement in pure lisp?
2016-04-19T22:13:28Z pjb: fouric: name your macros with names starting with def, define- or with-
2016-04-19T22:13:48Z pjb: le4fy: it's possible to implement it in pure lisp.
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2016-04-19T22:15:01Z pjb: le4fy: this doesn't mean much.  But have a look at: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/MetaCircular.html
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2016-04-19T22:17:54Z le4fy: pjb: thanks for the source, this may be what I need
2016-04-19T22:18:13Z le4fy: an interesting read, in any case
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2016-04-19T22:25:16Z PuercoPop: why would do-all-symbols iterate over uninterned ones as well?
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2016-04-19T22:30:40Z _death: PuercoPop: are you sure that it does that?  clhs says "a symbol not accessible in any registered package will not be processed"
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2016-04-19T22:35:09Z PuercoPop: _death: yeah I'm sure. It is breaking the sly completion. I don't know why it is doing so. But it does it after a failed compilation. My test case  http://paste.lisp.org/+6QC2
2016-04-19T22:35:12Z PuercoPop: 'test'
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2016-04-19T22:36:59Z PuercoPop: _death: so am I correct to assume this a bug in SBCL and not in sly?
2016-04-19T22:38:30Z _death: maybe sly does something weird, like make-package, intern symbols, delete-package when it evaluates this form?
2016-04-19T22:38:45Z PuercoPop: I'm evaluating that outside of sly
2016-04-19T22:38:59Z Bike: i think they could be uninterned symbols that are accessible in some package because they've been imported?
2016-04-19T22:39:39Z Bike: or inherited, or something
2016-04-19T22:39:51Z PuercoPop: Bike: you can inherit uninterned symbols?
2016-04-19T22:40:03Z Bike: dunno
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2016-04-19T22:41:02Z Bike: importing an uninterned symbol changes its home package, so never mind that
2016-04-19T22:41:40Z PuercoPop: Bike: Ok I know how to reproduce it now, loading the system spinneret
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2016-04-19T22:41:52Z PuercoPop: I'll look into when I get back
2016-04-19T22:43:54Z PuercoPop: The author of said package also uses sly, so he'll run into the issue as soon as he updates
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2016-04-19T22:47:30Z Bike: can't delete a package if something uses it either...
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2016-04-19T22:50:33Z _death:  Bike: but you can delete a package that contained a symbol imported by another
2016-04-19T22:50:40Z Bike: ok. got it. it's an "apparently uninterned" symbol.
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2016-04-19T22:50:45Z PuercoPop: ok, at the very least CCL does not present the issue. (ECL failed to load spinneret)
2016-04-19T22:51:23Z Bike: so it's weird but possible to have a symbol accessible from a package that has a symbol-package of nil.
2016-04-19T22:53:03Z _death: (let ((pkg1 (make-package "THE-FIRST-PACKAGE")) (pkg2 (make-package "THE-SECOND-PACKAGE"))) (intern "THE-SYMBOL" pkg1) (import (list (find-symbol "THE-SYMBOL" pkg1)) pkg2) (delete-package pkg1) (do-all-symbols (sym pkg2) (when (equal "THE-SYMBOL" (symbol-name sym)) (format t "~S~%" sym))))
2016-04-19T22:54:10Z Bike: yeah. you can also unintern it.
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2016-04-19T22:56:13Z PuercoPop: Bike: so are you saying it is legal? the CLHS glossary refers to uninterned as  not accessible and do-all-symbols iterate over the accessible symbols in a package. I would interpreted that to exclude uninterned symbols
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2016-04-19T22:57:28Z Bike: PuercoPop: right, the problem is that "(symbol-package foo) is nil" does not actually imply "foo is uninterned" because of shenanigans.
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2016-04-19T22:59:33Z _death: Bike: um, I think it does.. it's just that an uninterned symbol may still be accessible from some package
2016-04-19T23:00:04Z Bike: "uninterned" means "not accessible in any package" according to the glossary
2016-04-19T23:00:05Z PuercoPop: Bike: and it is being printed as unintermed due to the pretty printer only checking if it has a symbol-package?
2016-04-19T23:00:17Z Bike: yes. which is actually specifically mentioned
2016-04-19T23:00:19Z Bike: clhs unintern
2016-04-19T23:00:19Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_uninte.htm
2016-04-19T23:00:29Z Bike: "Common Lisp does not check for this pathological case, and such symbols are always printed preceded by #:. "
2016-04-19T23:00:51Z Bike: it's still kind of weird that it's happening, thoguh.
2016-04-19T23:00:54Z _death: Bike: well, in the page you linked to it says "Symbol may continue to be accessible in package by inheritance."
2016-04-19T23:01:15Z Bike: yes?
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2016-04-19T23:01:53Z _death: so the glossary may provide a misleading definition.. to me an unintern symbol means a symbol without a home package
2016-04-19T23:02:27Z Bike: maybe. i'm just glad i understand what's happening now
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2016-04-19T23:29:35Z sepi: is there a library that defines a metaclass or macro similar to defclass that automatically genrates accessor and initargs?
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2016-04-19T23:30:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: sepi: But you can already do that with defclass.
2016-04-19T23:31:01Z Petit_Dejeuner: Maybe I'm misunderstanding.
2016-04-19T23:32:08Z sepi: Petit_Dejeuner: What I mean is to just specify the slots without having to explicitely define an accessor and initarg.
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2016-04-19T23:32:54Z Bike: What would the accessor names and initarg values be?
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2016-04-19T23:34:20Z Petit_Dejeuner: I guess accessor would have slot name?
2016-04-19T23:34:21Z _death: sepi: guess you want something like defclass-star
2016-04-19T23:35:05Z sepi: Bike: class.slot for example
2016-04-19T23:35:23Z sepi: for the accessors
2016-04-19T23:35:31Z Bike: "for example"? this is something you're specifying.
2016-04-19T23:35:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: You want syntax for public fields like in Java?
2016-04-19T23:35:53Z Bike: once you pick something, you don't need a metaclass and it's a short macro.
2016-04-19T23:36:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: (incf my-foo.counter) ?
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2016-04-19T23:37:24Z Bike: (defmacro my-defclass (name superclasses slot-names &rest options) `(defclass ,name ,superclasses ,@(mapcar (lambda (sname) `(sname :accessor ,(symbolicate name "." sname) :initarg ,(keywordify sname)))) ,@options))
2016-04-19T23:38:35Z Petit_Dejeuner wishes he could just stop caring and write this sort of thing without worrying about readability or preexisting solutions
2016-04-19T23:38:40Z sepi: _death: Bike: defclas-star seems good already :)
2016-04-19T23:39:34Z sepi: Bike: I'm aware that it's quite easy to write my own macro for this. I just wantet to use something existing if it fits my taste.
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2016-04-19T23:41:17Z sepi: thanks for your help!
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2016-04-19T23:47:20Z le4fy: anyone know where I can find a source definition of macrolet?
2016-04-19T23:47:44Z Bike: your implementation?
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2016-04-19T23:48:07Z Bike: it might not help, though, since the compiler is going to treat it specially.
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2016-04-19T23:50:35Z le4fy: yeah, might as well check out the sbcl source
2016-04-19T23:50:46Z le4fy: cloning it now so I can grep for it :)
2016-04-19T23:50:55Z Bike: do you have slime? just use M-.
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2016-04-19T23:51:15Z le4fy: no I use vi
2016-04-19T23:51:20Z Bike: i see.
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2016-04-19T23:52:39Z le4fy: I wrote a fair bit in emacs/slime when I was first learning
2016-04-19T23:52:40Z Bike: anyway, it basically amounts to: 1) map across the macro definitions, and make a macro function out of each 2) stuff those macro functions into an environment 3) recursively do whatever you're doing (compiling, evaluating) to the macrolet body with respect to the environment thus made.
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2016-04-19T23:54:06Z le4fy: what do you mean by macro function... not familiar w/ that
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2016-04-19T23:55:40Z Bike: when you write a macro, what gets actually saved is a function called the macro function. the macro function takes a form and an environment, and then does the macroexpansion and returns the result.
2016-04-19T23:56:11Z Bike: like, if you have (defmacro foo (x) `(bar ,x)), the macro function is something like (lambda (form env) (declare (ignore env)) `(bar ,form)).
2016-04-19T23:56:55Z Bike: er, (lambda (form env) (declare (ignore env)) (destructuring-bind (ignore x) (declare (ignore ignore)) `(bar ,x))) more like.
2016-04-19T23:57:09Z le4fy: oh right
2016-04-19T23:57:14Z Bike: then when the evaluator/compiler/etc runs into (foo 17), what it actually does is (funcall that-function '(foo 17) the-current-environment).
2016-04-19T23:57:34Z le4fy: and then evaluates what gets returned from that-function call?
2016-04-19T23:57:47Z Bike: yes. which would be (bar 17) in this case.
2016-04-19T23:58:19Z le4fy: so does macrolet contain a call to (eval) for each form that is returned from a macro function?
2016-04-19T23:58:45Z Bike: "contain a call"?
2016-04-19T23:58:47Z le4fy: or does it let the regular evaluator handle the code it generates
2016-04-19T23:59:05Z le4fy: like does macrolet call eval
2016-04-19T23:59:08Z Bike: well like i said that's why a "definition" might not help you. macrolet isn't a function.
2016-04-19T23:59:22Z Bike: or a macro. it's a special form. it's dealt with specially by evaluators and compilers.
2016-04-19T23:59:44Z le4fy: ahh alright, I was under the impression it was defineable in lisp
2016-04-19T23:59:56Z le4fy: thanks for the info
2016-04-20T00:00:11Z Bike: it depends on what you mean by defineable.
2016-04-20T00:00:33Z Bike: wow, what a dumb sounding sentence that is.
2016-04-20T00:00:50Z le4fy: I'm looking to write a macro (defmacro macrolet ... ) that I can use the same way I would macrolet
2016-04-20T00:00:57Z Bike: why?
2016-04-20T00:01:14Z Bike: i mean, (defmacro my-macrolet (&rest rest) `(macrolet ,@rest)) isn't what you have in mind, i assume.
2016-04-20T00:01:20Z le4fy: trying to translate some common lisp that uses macrolet into the arc dialect
2016-04-20T00:01:31Z le4fy: arc doesn't have macrolet built in
2016-04-20T00:01:39Z Bike: does it have macros?
2016-04-20T00:01:39Z le4fy: haha no
2016-04-20T00:01:43Z le4fy: yea
2016-04-20T00:01:48Z Bike: does it have local macros?
2016-04-20T00:02:01Z le4fy: not sure but I think the answer is no
2016-04-20T00:02:12Z le4fy: might be a cool thing to add, though
2016-04-20T00:02:17Z le4fy: i could probably do that
2016-04-20T00:02:23Z Bike: ok well then you can't have it in arc short of changing how arc works.
2016-04-20T00:02:29Z Bike: or doing expansions beforehand.
2016-04-20T00:02:38Z le4fy: ok
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2016-04-20T00:58:25Z sebboh: I have a lisp file that I'm editing in emacs.  The first line is (ql:quickload :log4slime).  I open the file, hit M-x slime, then C-c C-k (compile and load the current file).  Compilation fails on the first use of a function from the log4slime .. system?  But if I C-x C-e with my point after the first form: (ql:quickload :log4slime) and THEN C-c C-k, compilation passes.  (Well, fails elsewhere. :D)  What gives?
2016-04-20T00:59:03Z sebboh: also log4slime rocks. Just gotta say.
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2016-04-20T01:21:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: sebboh: how does the compilation fail? what does it say?
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2016-04-20T01:22:49Z sebboh: oh, sorry, it says log isn't defined.  As if the ql:quickload hadn't happened.
2016-04-20T01:23:10Z sebboh: You log a message with something like (log:info "your message")
2016-04-20T01:23:23Z sebboh: and it fails on the first line wherein I do that.
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2016-04-20T01:53:23Z sebboh: heading out for an unknown number of hours.
2016-04-20T01:54:18Z Bike: C-C C-k compile and load. it compiles the entire file before running any of it. so it doesn't quickload in time for compile-time dependencies, like the existence of the log4slime package, to load.
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2016-04-20T02:12:27Z erjoalgo: how do I print the html content of a  RUNE-DOM::ELEMENT ?
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2016-04-20T04:24:40Z loke: I wanted to play with common-qt, but I get the weirdest error when trying to Quickload it:
2016-04-20T04:25:00Z loke: OPERATION-ERROR while invoking #<COMPILE-OP > on
2016-04-20T04:25:00Z loke:   #<CPP->SO "qt" "so" "commonqt"
2016-04-20T04:25:05Z loke: Anyone seen that before?
2016-04-20T04:26:43Z Bike: that sort of looks like cpp messed up?
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2016-04-20T04:28:41Z loke: Yes, but how?
2016-04-20T04:28:54Z loke: There is absolutely no output to tell me what's giung on.
2016-04-20T04:29:44Z loke: This is it:
2016-04-20T04:29:45Z loke: https://gist.github.com/lokedhs/54be755af97a506af35e4fecaae65e87
2016-04-20T04:30:50Z Bike: honestly, i've never been able to understand asdf's errors. can you inspect the condition?
2016-04-20T04:31:12Z pillton: loke: Has it built properly?
2016-04-20T04:31:59Z pillton: Does ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/commonqt-20151218-git/ contain a dynamic library?
2016-04-20T04:31:59Z loke: pillton: What is "it" referring to?
2016-04-20T04:32:19Z pillton: It should be libcommonqt.${sosuffix}.
2016-04-20T04:32:25Z loke: No. There are no .so files there
2016-04-20T04:32:30Z loke: No .o files either for that matter
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2016-04-20T04:32:41Z pillton: Do you know where qmake is?
2016-04-20T04:32:58Z loke: It's in /bin
2016-04-20T04:33:18Z pillton: It shouldn't be. It is part of Qt.
2016-04-20T04:33:35Z loke: pillton: Well, I simply installed qt and qmake appeared in /bin
2016-04-20T04:33:49Z pillton: Where did you get Qt ?
2016-04-20T04:34:00Z loke: This is Arch, /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin
2016-04-20T04:34:18Z loke: pacman -S qt
2016-04-20T04:34:46Z pillton: What does qmake --version return?
2016-04-20T04:34:59Z loke: QMake version 3.0
2016-04-20T04:34:59Z loke: Using Qt version 5.6.0 in /usr/lib
2016-04-20T04:35:04Z pillton: Ok.
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2016-04-20T04:35:22Z pillton: Is there a makefile in the directory above?
2016-04-20T04:35:40Z loke: Yes, there is.
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2016-04-20T04:35:54Z pillton: Run make and show me what it says.
2016-04-20T04:36:08Z loke: Interesting
2016-04-20T04:36:09Z loke: commonqt.cpp:5:19: fatal error: smoke.h: No such file or directory
2016-04-20T04:36:24Z pillton: You need to install smokeqt.
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2016-04-20T04:37:25Z loke: Well, that's interesting. That's not a standard package
2016-04-20T04:37:31Z loke: it's only available in AUR
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2016-04-20T04:38:02Z pillton: You can build it from source.
2016-04-20T04:38:10Z pillton: I can't remember where you get it.
2016-04-20T04:38:22Z Bike: sok, aur is building from source.
2016-04-20T04:38:31Z Bike: it's probably not in the normal repos cos it's only used for bindings.
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2016-04-20T04:39:43Z loke: pillton: It's in AUR so it's not hard. But... I'm annoyed that the errro message was competely absent.
2016-04-20T04:40:24Z pillton: Well, we really need a different software distribution model.
2016-04-20T04:40:51Z loke: pillton: Indeed.
2016-04-20T04:41:09Z loke: Similar problems with IOLIB and that goddamn fixposix
2016-04-20T04:43:18Z flip214: how can I (indirectly) call a SETF accessor that was defined as a method? Ie. my function gets the argument 'TAGS, and should do (SETF (tags object) value)
2016-04-20T04:43:52Z Bike: (funcall (fdefinition `(setf ,arg)) value object)
2016-04-20T04:43:54Z Zhivago: (funcall (setf foo) ?)
2016-04-20T04:44:12Z Zhivago: Ah, oops.
2016-04-20T04:44:35Z pillton: flip214: The method part is irrelevant. Methods belong to generic functions. You want to invoke the generic function with the name (setf <myname>).
2016-04-20T04:44:38Z loke: Anyway, thanks guys!
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2016-04-20T04:46:05Z flip214: Bike: thanks - yeah, FDEFINITION. I tried several others ;/
2016-04-20T04:46:23Z pillton: flip214: Don't forget 5.1.2.5.
2016-04-20T04:46:26Z pillton: clhs 5.1.2.5
2016-04-20T04:46:27Z specbot: APPLY Forms as Places: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_abe.htm
2016-04-20T04:49:21Z flip214: pillton: thanks, I'll put that in a comment
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2016-04-20T05:01:36Z pillton: loke: Let me know if you have any other problems. I use commonqt a lot.
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2016-04-20T05:02:35Z loke: pillton: I just started looking at it.
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2016-04-20T06:47:23Z PuercoPop: Ok, I've pinpointed the accessible symbols without home-package to parenscript's re-export-synbols
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2016-04-20T07:50:21Z DavidGuru: Hi, anyone notice that it seems Travis-CI doesn't work for CL project?
2016-04-20T07:51:22Z DavidGuru: It keeps reporting "The command "curl -L https://raw.githubusercontent.com/snmsts/roswell/$ROSWELL_BRANCH/scripts/install-for-ci.sh | sh" failed and exited with 2 during ."
2016-04-20T07:51:40Z DavidGuru: Anyone sees the same?
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2016-04-20T08:50:01Z jdz: DavidGuru: it seems the $ROSWELL_BRANCH is not replaced properly
2016-04-20T08:50:33Z jdz: have not used roswell myself, so cannot offer any other help
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2016-04-20T08:58:33Z DavidGuru: Yeah, it must be a problem from ROSWELL, thanks anyway :)
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2016-04-20T09:23:35Z commonlisp_win: Hi.I tried mapped in the SBCL, but it returns function not defiend, is it not there in that implementation or ?
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2016-04-20T09:24:30Z jackdaniel: commonlisp_win: there is MAP, MAPCAR etc, never heard about function MAPPED
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2016-04-20T09:24:55Z commonlisp_win: sorry MAPPEND
2016-04-20T09:25:20Z jackdaniel: same (it's not part of the standard) – what is it supposed to do?
2016-04-20T09:25:31Z igam: Type: (cl:apropos "MAP" "CL")
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2016-04-20T09:26:05Z igam: https://common-lisp.net/project/bdb/qbook/mycl-util/api/function_005FMYCL-UTIL_003A_003AMAPPEND.html
2016-04-20T09:26:46Z PuercoPop: commonlisp_win: are you going through PAIP? It defines it early on and uses it throughout the book
2016-04-20T09:26:48Z igam: It's kind of mapcan, but with append instead of nconc.
2016-04-20T09:27:05Z commonlisp_win: Yes im going through PAIP
2016-04-20T09:27:07Z jackdaniel: OK
2016-04-20T09:27:42Z commonlisp_win: and im using steels 1st edition as reference
2016-04-20T09:28:13Z igam:  (alexandria:mappend 'list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) #| --> (1 a 2 b 3 c) |#
2016-04-20T09:28:23Z jackdaniel: commonlisp_win: use hyperspec, that's what sbcl and all other implementations implement
2016-04-20T09:28:24Z PuercoPop: commonlisp_win: you must have skipped page 19, but it is listed in the index
2016-04-20T09:28:35Z commonlisp_win: So I should use common lisp compiler not sbcl?
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2016-04-20T09:28:53Z igam: There's also (ql:quickload :paiprolog) paiprolog.auxfns:mappend   but it takes only one list.
2016-04-20T09:28:53Z jackdaniel: sbcl is fine, but use hyperspec as the reference, not cltl1
2016-04-20T09:29:23Z commonlisp_win: Ah ok.I will thanks for the help, back to programming.:P
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2016-04-20T09:33:42Z loke: igam: How is your mappend example different from just using the standard MAPCAN?
2016-04-20T09:34:06Z loke: Oh, append insteand of nconc. I see.
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2016-04-20T11:56:03Z otwieracz: W ogóle, astronauci mają najbardziej nerdowe sypialnie świata.
2016-04-20T11:56:17Z otwieracz: Śpiwór przymocowany do ściany z laptopem przed oczami :)
2016-04-20T11:56:21Z otwieracz: (thinkpadem ofc)
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2016-04-20T11:57:39Z jdz: totally
2016-04-20T11:57:52Z otwieracz: Oh dear.
2016-04-20T11:57:57Z otwieracz: Wrong channel.
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2016-04-20T11:58:05Z otwieracz: No idea how that happend. :)
2016-04-20T11:58:58Z otwieracz: Well - astrounauts has the nerdiest bedrooms in the whole world - sleeping bag attached to „wall” with thinkpad in front of them. :)
2016-04-20T11:59:07Z otwieracz: And sorry about that :)
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2016-04-20T12:02:52Z igam: otwieracz: this is relevant, as long as they write lisp code on their thinkpads. :-)
2016-04-20T12:03:42Z otwieracz: Yes!
2016-04-20T12:03:55Z igam: And then of course, as parent, you can spare some money and some space by merely clawing sleeping bags on a wall, and having the kids play astronauts, instead of buying beds.
2016-04-20T12:04:49Z otwieracz: And read them CLTL2 instead of fairy-tales!
2016-04-20T12:05:11Z igam: I think my parents were lucky I didn't know astronauts would sleep like that when I was a kid :-) (At the time, they just slept in their seats in the Appolo capsules).
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2016-04-20T12:09:47Z otwieracz: And go, convince child that this was *floor*, not the wall :)
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2016-04-20T12:46:06Z fe[nl]ix: loke: fear not, times are a-changin', getting libfixposix will no longer be a problem. Soon(TM)
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2016-04-20T12:55:35Z loke`: fenlix: cool! What's the solution?
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2016-04-20T13:01:51Z fe[nl]ix: distributing an SBCL binary that statically links a few crucial libraries
2016-04-20T13:02:01Z fe[nl]ix: I'm  thinking of libffi, libfixposix and openssl
2016-04-20T13:02:31Z fe[nl]ix: and setting up an automatic process for polling an upstream distro, e.g. Debian testing for updates
2016-04-20T13:02:37Z loke`: fenlix: but how about including libfixposix in the IOLIB distribution?
2016-04-20T13:02:43Z loke`: Compile it when quickloading it...
2016-04-20T13:02:47Z fe[nl]ix: so that security updates will automatically appear
2016-04-20T13:03:03Z fe[nl]ix: loke: ASDF is not appropriate for building complex C libraries
2016-04-20T13:03:16Z loke`: fenlix: it's not that complrex, is it?
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2016-04-20T13:03:32Z fe[nl]ix: it is
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2016-04-20T13:04:51Z rszeno: can you both give same example?
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2016-04-20T13:06:55Z fe[nl]ix: rszeno: ??
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2016-04-20T13:07:00Z rszeno i'm ...
2016-04-20T13:07:42Z rszeno: im  curious about asdf limitations
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2016-04-20T13:08:27Z rszeno: except what is already documented
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2016-04-20T13:14:29Z igam: otwieracz: You'd make babies just to be able to do that :-) :  http://files.mom.me/photos/2014/06/10/6-70804-mm_duct3-1402413302.jpg
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2016-04-20T13:15:21Z otwieracz: :D
2016-04-20T13:16:56Z otwieracz: igam: still better than Smarter Every Day: „If you learn how to ride inverted bike, I will take you and you'll meet real astronaut. Deal?”
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2016-04-20T13:17:10Z otwieracz: igam: (to ~6yo son)
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2016-04-20T13:17:36Z otwieracz: igam: (about bike with inverted handlebars - where you turn left to turn right)
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2016-04-20T13:33:34Z igam: otwieracz: Yes, I saw him trying :-)
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2016-04-20T16:40:17Z warweasle: Is there a way in bordeaux-threads to create a detached thread?
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2016-04-20T16:42:02Z jackdaniel: warweasle: what do you mean?
2016-04-20T16:42:32Z Bike: like pthread_detach(3)?
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2016-04-20T16:42:50Z warweasle: jackdaniel: BT returns a thread object. Don't I need to join to destroy the thread? Or will GC destroy it and the return value.
2016-04-20T16:42:52Z Bike: ey, it's in C++ too
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2016-04-20T16:43:05Z igam: warweasle: I don't think so. You will have to use low-level stuff to do that.
2016-04-20T16:43:23Z igam: warweasle: notice that bordeaux-thread could give you green threads or some other kind of processes, not implemented on pthreads.
2016-04-20T16:43:26Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I believe that gc will handle it, but not 100% sure
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2016-04-20T16:44:06Z igam: warweasle: you would want to add a keyword to bt:make-thread and call pthread_detach or equivalent in the implementations that use it.
2016-04-20T16:44:09Z jackdaniel: that is a matter of underlying implementation what it does with the thread
2016-04-20T16:44:52Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Hmmm... I wonder if sb-threads are gc'ed
2016-04-20T16:45:14Z jackdaniel: for instance in ECL "join" will wait for the thread till it stops and will return it's exit values
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2016-04-20T16:45:29Z Bike: well, if you make-thread (lambda ()) or something it won't show up on list-all-threads.
2016-04-20T16:45:30Z jackdaniel: nothing more, there is no other magic with it
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2016-04-20T16:46:57Z igam: Bike: this should be wrong, on the repl, since * still references it and you could call (join-thread *).
2016-04-20T16:47:30Z Bike: the thread is finished already
2016-04-20T16:47:32Z igam: Perhaps list thread filters out waiting threads?
2016-04-20T16:47:33Z jackdaniel: igam: that means, that * won't get gc'ed because it's still referenced
2016-04-20T16:47:53Z Bike: and then join-thread just returns the return value, and i can do it multiple times
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2016-04-20T16:48:09Z jackdaniel: all-processes (on ecl) contains only running processes
2016-04-20T16:48:24Z jackdaniel: and what Bike said
2016-04-20T16:48:29Z igam: jackdaniel: my point is that it's conceivable that GCing a finished thread would "join" it, but it should not be the case for (make-thread (lambda ())) at the RPEL.
2016-04-20T16:48:30Z warweasle: Bike: Looking at the thread object, it looks like only the mutex structure is kept. I don't know if the mutexes are gc'ed though.
2016-04-20T16:48:49Z jackdaniel: igam: right.
2016-04-20T16:49:05Z igam: jackdaniel: yes, there's some cheating there. perhaps we'd want all-processes to return finished threads that we can still join.
2016-04-20T16:49:31Z jackdaniel: igam: you still can join a finished process – all-processes though has a different purpose
2016-04-20T16:49:46Z jackdaniel: what acl-compat and mcclim did, was maintaining their own *all-processes* list
2016-04-20T16:49:56Z jackdaniel: and provided their own all-processes
2016-04-20T16:49:57Z warweasle: Oh, it looks like the thread-id is set to nil so I assume it's released then.
2016-04-20T16:50:00Z jackdaniel: to achieve exactly what you wnat
2016-04-20T16:50:03Z jackdaniel: s/wnat/want/
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2016-04-20T16:50:28Z jackdaniel: s/their own/their own function/
2016-04-20T16:51:07Z igam: Ah anyways, I was thinking about bt:all-threads: all-threads ()  Returns a sequence of all of the threads. This may or may not be freshly-allocated, so the caller should not modify it.
2016-04-20T16:51:33Z igam: It is wrong on ccl.
2016-04-20T16:51:51Z igam: Anyways, I'm going back home.  Good night.
2016-04-20T16:52:05Z jackdaniel: I've checked it, and bt:all-threads directly maps  to the underlying function
2016-04-20T16:52:26Z jackdaniel: mp:all-processes, ccl:all-processes, sb-thread:list-all-threads etc
2016-04-20T16:54:04Z fe[nl]ix: warweasle: why do you want a detached thread ?
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2016-04-20T16:56:36Z warweasle: fe[nl]ix: I have some cpu based rendering which I want to do in another thread. I don't care when it's done.
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2016-04-20T17:23:24Z kenanb: hi folks
2016-04-20T17:23:57Z varjag: hi
2016-04-20T17:25:13Z kenanb: I cannot call a macro inside a function definition before it is defined, as I do with a function, right?
2016-04-20T17:25:38Z kenanb: because it doesn't know how to expand the macro at that time, so it cannot compile the function
2016-04-20T17:25:44Z kenanb: am I right?
2016-04-20T17:26:09Z Bike: yeah. the compiler will probably assume that it's supposed to be a function call.
2016-04-20T17:26:21Z varjag: it doesn't know it's a macro at the time
2016-04-20T17:26:31Z varjag: what Bike says
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2016-04-20T17:26:44Z kenanb: then at least we can safely say this is totally a bug: https://github.com/sharplispers/cl-jpeg/blob/master/jpeg.lisp#L592
2016-04-20T17:26:52Z kenanb: because there is a reference to mul3 before that
2016-04-20T17:27:13Z kenanb: it already signals an error but I wanted to be sure before fixing
2016-04-20T17:28:32Z varjag: looks like it!
2016-04-20T17:28:34Z varjag ducks
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2016-04-20T17:29:01Z kenanb: hahaha didn't realize it was you that commited it
2016-04-20T17:29:08Z kenanb: ok, I was meaning to talk to you actually
2016-04-20T17:29:41Z varjag: well i wrote the whole thing more or less
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2016-04-20T17:29:46Z kenanb: there is also an error with one of your type declarations
2016-04-20T17:29:49Z kenanb: ah, I see
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2016-04-20T17:30:20Z kenanb: sorry it is sometimes hard to realize the author among all the nicknames :)
2016-04-20T17:30:34Z kenanb: then first of all, thank you very much for the library :)
2016-04-20T17:30:51Z varjag: which implementation you use may i ask?
2016-04-20T17:30:53Z varjag: lisp
2016-04-20T17:31:26Z kenanb: I tried with many, on multiple OSes
2016-04-20T17:31:30Z kenanb: at least CCL SBCL
2016-04-20T17:31:37Z kenanb: and Clisp IIRC
2016-04-20T17:31:40Z varjag: hmm pretty sure i ran tests on both
2016-04-20T17:31:47Z kenanb: and on Windows and Linux
2016-04-20T17:32:07Z varjag: ok let's see..
2016-04-20T17:32:15Z kenanb: you can just try encoding the same jpeg you decoded, and you will see the image is complete glitch
2016-04-20T17:32:24Z kenanb: because of a declaration in encode-block iirc
2016-04-20T17:32:26Z kenanb: will check now
2016-04-20T17:32:37Z kenanb: decoder is ok, the encoder has the problem
2016-04-20T17:32:37Z varjag: colorspace-convert where mul3 used is declared inline
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2016-04-20T17:33:15Z varjag: so it actually being compiled in later in the encode
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2016-04-20T17:34:32Z Bike: the inline declarations were conditionalized out.
2016-04-20T17:34:48Z varjag: oh.
2016-04-20T17:34:58Z kenanb: hmm, I am not familiar with compilation procedure of inline functions, so I missed that, but somehow that particular definition errored in CCL and got fixed with moving mul3 up
2016-04-20T17:35:19Z Bike: by you, actually
2016-04-20T17:35:24Z varjag: yes.
2016-04-20T17:36:13Z kenanb: also that declaration: https://github.com/sharplispers/cl-jpeg/blob/master/jpeg.lisp#L812 causes encoding to go haywire
2016-04-20T17:36:30Z Bike: kenanb: if a function is inlined, the body is saved by the compiler (though i don't know that it's not allowed to macroexpand first) and inserted literally at call sites, so as long as the call sites are after the macro it might work.
2016-04-20T17:36:44Z Bike: the macro should probably go first though. i mean, just to be clear, and also because it's so simple there's no reason to delay it.
2016-04-20T17:37:44Z varjag: yes it should go first
2016-04-20T17:38:09Z Bike: oh hey, so the problem was the build-tables thing i grepped for? go me
2016-04-20T17:38:35Z kenanb: IIRC was Bike that tracked down that particular declaration error.
2016-04-20T17:39:23Z kenanb: Bike: ah, I knew what inlining ultimately does, but I didn't realize its implications on compilation order
2016-04-20T17:39:33Z kenanb: Bike: thank you very much! :)
2016-04-20T17:39:37Z Bike: i don't know how well the ordering semantics are actually defined
2016-04-20T17:40:12Z Bike: also, you could probably ahve caught that by setting *optimize* to (debug 3) (speed 0) or something instead
2016-04-20T17:40:36Z Bike: on sbcl it would be a runtime type error
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2016-04-20T17:42:35Z kenanb: I see. you are right. I somehow tend to forget testing by changing optimize declarations on someone elses code when I find something buggy.
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2016-04-20T17:44:35Z kenanb: varjag: it is lucky that I bumped into you, I didn't feel comfortable at all with trying to fix it myself, I was reading JPEG spec for the last two days so that I can provide a fix :)
2016-04-20T17:45:44Z Bike: you didn't just remove the uint8-array declaration? it might be a bit slower, but it should work
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2016-04-20T17:47:04Z kenanb: I am also hoping to write some extensions that let you combine multiple jpeg files (and crop, rotate etc.) loselessly without decoding, from what I can see, the block structure of image data lets you do those stuff in a limited fashion
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2016-04-20T17:49:03Z kenanb: Bike: I did, I am actually using the library with that modification right now, but I thoght maybe there supposed to be a declaration, but just not that one, so I didn't make a pr out of it
2016-04-20T17:49:20Z kenanb: Bike: otherwise, it works like a charm
2016-04-20T17:49:30Z Bike: i think a slightly pessimistic but correct declaration is probably better than an actually broken one
2016-04-20T17:49:36Z varjag: there was supposed to be a declaration, but the type is probably wrong
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2016-04-20T17:50:11Z varjag: note to self - always do the final test with from a clean image
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2016-04-20T17:51:13Z varjag: kenanb: buy all means push the fix
2016-04-20T17:51:29Z varjag: s/buy/by
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2016-04-20T17:52:00Z kenanb: should that be pushed to sharplispers account? which is the main one?
2016-04-20T17:52:15Z fouric: pjb! (pardon my "!" nick autocomplete character) Is there any way *aside* from naming my macros in that fashion that I can get Emacs to make my macros colored and indented the same as the builtins?
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2016-04-20T17:52:57Z Bike: you can alter font lock
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2016-04-20T17:53:06Z Bike: though it's a bit annoying to do so
2016-04-20T17:53:50Z varjag: kenanb: yes sharplispers is the main acct now
2016-04-20T17:53:52Z varjag: send them a PR
2016-04-20T17:54:14Z fouric: ...that looks hacky, and I don't think that it'll give me indentation as well.
2016-04-20T17:54:20Z fouric: (I'm running SLIME, if that helps at all)
2016-04-20T17:54:32Z Bike: font lock and indentation are separate matters
2016-04-20T17:56:12Z fouric: ...am I just mistreating SLIME in such a way that it refuses to acknowledge my macros as such and indent them accordingly?
2016-04-20T17:56:19Z fouric: ...or has SLIME never done this?
2016-04-20T17:56:40Z Bike: i dunno. it's usually pretty good about macros for me. of course, they have to be actually defined in the image; i have no idea what you're doing with arc.
2016-04-20T17:57:07Z fouric: arc?
2016-04-20T17:57:15Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2016-04-20T17:57:17Z Bike: wasn't that you?
2016-04-20T17:57:21Z fouric: Oh no
2016-04-20T17:57:28Z fouric: I'm using pure Common Lisp, SBCL
2016-04-20T17:57:35Z Bike: ok.
2016-04-20T17:57:39Z Bike: so what problems are you having precisely
2016-04-20T17:57:56Z isBEKaml: has anyone faced a problem with slimv (or slime) disconnecting on errors?
2016-04-20T17:58:13Z varjag: kenanb: let me know if you do any work on extensions
2016-04-20T17:58:15Z isBEKaml: I can get it back by reconnecting, but that's just an annoyance
2016-04-20T17:58:26Z isBEKaml: *the slim(v|e) session
2016-04-20T17:58:35Z varjag: rotate can be done by changing the header iirc
2016-04-20T17:58:37Z fouric: I have a macro defined in another file that I'm LOAD-ing through an `eval-when` expression.
2016-04-20T17:58:37Z varjag: quite easily
2016-04-20T17:59:03Z fouric: SLIME gives me the prototype of the macro and allows me to use it and jump to its definition, but it doesn't indent it like a macro, it indents it like a normal function
2016-04-20T17:59:19Z reb``: fouric: There are several ways to get Emacs to indent your macros correctly.
2016-04-20T17:59:27Z reb`` is now known as reb
2016-04-20T17:59:41Z Bike: there's no one way to indent a macro. it should do different things depending on the macro arglist
2016-04-20T17:59:43Z varjag: not sure there's much need for lossless
2016-04-20T18:00:04Z varjag: kenanb: support for progressive decoding on the other hand could be quite useful
2016-04-20T18:00:33Z reb: The technique you use depends on how complicated the indentation rules for the macro are, whether it's indented just like a macro Emacs already knows about, etc.
2016-04-20T18:01:13Z cyphase_ is now known as cyphase
2016-04-20T18:01:29Z fouric: (afk to head to school, will reply in ~20m) I was under the impression that most macros were indented 2 spaces?
2016-04-20T18:01:49Z Bike: the &body might be
2016-04-20T18:02:04Z jsgrant:  What was the name of that piece of software, that it would unlock your device based on a given specialized usb-key?
2016-04-20T18:02:06Z Bike: but if you have an arglist like (foo bar baz) there's no particular reason to assume that
2016-04-20T18:02:13Z reb: Indentation totally depends on how complicated the macro is.
2016-04-20T18:02:57Z kenanb: varjag: will do, yeah, actually my main use for library was combining ~300 jpeg fragments into a single image to get a complete panaroma. in which case doing so without decoding and encoding again will probably have performance implications plus being loseless.
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2016-04-20T18:03:05Z reb: Consider loop or case.
2016-04-20T18:03:49Z kenanb: varjag: tho I didn't get to the stage I can test how slow it is with decoding encoding
2016-04-20T18:04:00Z Xach wrote a small program to compose jpegs and pngs into a large jpeg while only holding a small amount of image data in memory at a time
2016-04-20T18:04:21Z Xach needed it for lisp-powered wigflip.com when imagemagick was being fussy about loading all images in memory at once.
2016-04-20T18:04:26Z varjag: Xach: but is it in quicklisp? :p
2016-04-20T18:04:50Z Xach: It's in C. I needed to make super-big images for making large posters.
2016-04-20T18:05:21Z varjag: kenanb: if you want to mess with the codec get the CCITT/ITU standard
2016-04-20T18:05:26Z varjag: pdf is on the net
2016-04-20T18:05:33Z Xach: I would call it from Lisp with run-program :)
2016-04-20T18:05:44Z Xach: And because of that the command-line arguments are rotten and computery.
2016-04-20T18:05:45Z varjag: the codec mostly follows the structural description there
2016-04-20T18:07:03Z kenanb: Xach: cool! anywhere we can see it? jpegtran is also a good reference, it does exactly what I want to do, and much more: http://linux.die.net/man/1/jpegtran
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2016-04-20T18:07:31Z Xach: https://github.com/xach/wfcomp
2016-04-20T18:07:37Z Xach: "wigflip compositor"
2016-04-20T18:07:41Z kenanb: Xach: thank you!
2016-04-20T18:09:02Z kenanb: varjag: I also love Ange Albertini's nice binary format references: https://github.com/corkami/pics/blob/master/JPG.png
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2016-04-20T18:10:38Z kenanb: varjag: he has a whole bunch of them in that repo. this, wikipedia page on the format and your library were a good combination so far. but I will also check the pdf, thank you :)
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2016-04-20T18:13:23Z varjag: sweet
2016-04-20T18:15:40Z jsgrant: Hm, pretty sure this existed... no idea what searchterms to look for. I wonder if it's in QL.
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2016-04-20T18:19:52Z kenanb: jsgrant: you mean with a dongle?
2016-04-20T18:20:38Z jsgrant: kenanb: Yeah, I believe.
2016-04-20T18:21:27Z jsgrant: I'm pretty sure you plugged in the USB device, and it either unlocked your session and/or unecrypted your initramfs.
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2016-04-20T18:29:46Z jsgrant: No idea. :^P
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2016-04-20T18:37:31Z fouric: reb/Bike: Hm. Well, if I can't get automatic indentation, is there at least *some* way to tell Slime/Emacs to indent individual macros the way that I want them to?
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2016-04-20T18:38:45Z Xach: I feel good about april's quicklisp dist update coming out today!
2016-04-20T18:39:01Z Xach waits for the final things to compile and test
2016-04-20T18:39:03Z jsgrant: Xach: ++
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2016-04-20T18:39:08Z jsgrant: Is the fundraiser still going on?
2016-04-20T18:40:00Z Xach: It hasn't started yet
2016-04-20T18:40:11Z Xach: Waiting for some details to get worked out
2016-04-20T18:40:33Z jsgrant: Ah, I thought it was running at the start of April or something; But haven't kept up with the site.
2016-04-20T18:40:42Z kenanb`: Xach: can we quickly push the cl-jpeg fix to this update maybe?
2016-04-20T18:40:47Z jsgrant needs to get an RSS reader, into his workflow.
2016-04-20T18:40:59Z kenanb`: Xach: I can get it ready and sent in like 15 mins
2016-04-20T18:41:18Z kenanb`: Xach: encoding doesn't work in the current bundled cl-jpeg
2016-04-20T18:41:19Z varjag: kenanb`: i fixed the type to fixnum/fixnum array in the huffman part
2016-04-20T18:41:25Z kenanb`: ah
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2016-04-20T18:41:28Z kenanb`: cool
2016-04-20T18:41:42Z varjag: in case you haven't got around that yet
2016-04-20T18:41:44Z kenanb`: varjag: can you also move the mul3 while at it?
2016-04-20T18:41:54Z varjag: seems to work but would be great if you can confirm
2016-04-20T18:42:02Z varjag: i'll push it to my fork
2016-04-20T18:43:09Z Xach: I think it may be too late for such things
2016-04-20T18:43:26Z kenanb`: varjag: I am in my windows box right now, which I am really really uncomfortable for anything related to dev. I will try to switch to linux and test it asap
2016-04-20T18:43:57Z varjag: it's no rush
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2016-04-20T18:45:04Z drmeister: Hey lispers:    magit-status gets slow when I have 200 buffers open.  Many operations result in "Reverting up to xxx buffers" which takes a while. Is there any way to speed this up?
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2016-04-20T18:45:35Z warweasle: 200?
2016-04-20T18:45:41Z drmeister: I'm a busy boy.
2016-04-20T18:45:53Z mordocai: drmeister: More of an emacs question than common lisp but the answer is "probably"
2016-04-20T18:46:06Z varjag: kenanb`: https://github.com/varjagg/cl-jpeg.git
2016-04-20T18:46:13Z varjag: have a look when you have time
2016-04-20T18:46:15Z kenanb`: Xach: well, we can always wait for the next release ofc, thanks :)
2016-04-20T18:46:15Z mordocai: drmeister: That code path probably isn't very well optimized currently since most people don't have that many buffers
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2016-04-20T18:46:23Z kenanb`: varjag: ok
2016-04-20T18:46:25Z varjag: kenanb`: really appreciate your contribution
2016-04-20T18:46:27Z kenanb`: will do now
2016-04-20T18:46:29Z drmeister: I know it's a bit off topic but wading into #emacs is never fun.  The only place less fun is ##c++
2016-04-20T18:46:35Z warweasle: drmeister: Have you thought about renting time on a supercomputer.
2016-04-20T18:46:55Z ferada: eh, if firefox manages that many buffers emacs should too
2016-04-20T18:47:11Z drmeister: warweasle: I have, and then I reach into my pockets and all I pull out is lint.
2016-04-20T18:47:13Z warweasle: drmeister: Agreed. It's almost as bad as manipulating buffers in elisp.
2016-04-20T18:47:34Z kenanb`: varjag: you are welcome, thank you very much for the library :)
2016-04-20T18:47:45Z drmeister: Ok, I'll turn emacs off and turn it on again.
2016-04-20T18:48:08Z fouric: ...you can turn Emacs off?
2016-04-20T18:48:41Z warweasle: fouric: I had to find a server-shutdown function.
2016-04-20T18:49:09Z fouric nods
2016-04-20T18:49:21Z jsgrant: fouric: No, you can only kill it; But it always raises from the dead, lest you let your guard down.
2016-04-20T18:49:29Z drmeister: It's so peppy!
2016-04-20T18:50:25Z warweasle: drmeister: Seriously, I pay $10 a month for a virtual server.
2016-04-20T18:50:52Z drmeister: Really.  But what can $10 buy me?
2016-04-20T18:50:54Z Xach spends $39/month on the quicklisp server, which is real hardware
2016-04-20T18:51:13Z drmeister: That's like three coffee's.
2016-04-20T18:51:38Z drmeister runs on expensive, terrible coffee.
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2016-04-20T18:51:50Z jsgrant: Xach: Is there an estimated average users/bandwidth people are taking at any given time?
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2016-04-20T18:52:07Z Xach: jsgrant: i collect the stats, but i haven't analyzed them
2016-04-20T18:52:15Z drmeister: Xach: Is does that do a lot of building and compilation?
2016-04-20T18:52:42Z Xach: drmeister: none of it. it's the web host. i have a cheap "media server" linux box at home that i use for that.
2016-04-20T18:52:58Z Xach: I had a fast power computer doing that for a while, but the electricity bill was too high.
2016-04-20T18:52:59Z jsgrant: Xach: Would probably be a neat thing to average out, every few years. :^)
2016-04-20T18:53:15Z Xach: I'd love to make some charts
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2016-04-20T18:54:40Z mordocai: Xach: beware the charts https://xkcd.com/523/
2016-04-20T18:54:46Z Xach: For the fundraiser, I'd love it if just 1% of the estimated hundred million quicklisp users pledged $1.
2016-04-20T18:55:12Z Xach: each, that is
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2016-04-20T18:56:33Z drmeister: Xach: Do you have a "contribute now" button?
2016-04-20T18:56:59Z mordocai: Xach: What would you do with your one million dollars? You'd run off and leave us high and dry wouldn't you? :P
2016-04-20T18:57:24Z drmeister: These days you need a billion dollars to run anywhere.
2016-04-20T18:57:30Z varjag: blackjack and cookies, as they say
2016-04-20T18:57:42Z drmeister: Yeah "cookies".
2016-04-20T18:57:47Z Xach: I would buy a faster build server. Then I would take some time to work on stuff that needs doing.
2016-04-20T18:58:05Z warweasle: Cookies from an 18 year old named Bambi.
2016-04-20T18:58:26Z mordocai: Yeah, I actually trust you to do cool stuff with it. I want to make a semi sizable donation during the fundraiser with the matching + I hate paypal or i'd be donating already.
2016-04-20T18:58:42Z jsgrant: mordocai: That would be 10mil, wouldn't it?
2016-04-20T18:59:22Z Xach: I actually hit the brakes on the CLF fundraiser early in april because it was PayPal-only. That has caused some slowdown but hopefully things will be easy and smooth when it kicks off for real.
2016-04-20T18:59:34Z warweasle: If I got 10 million you could find me by following the path of sports cars, women and wanton destruction.
2016-04-20T18:59:44Z mordocai: jsgrant: (* 100000000 .01) is what I did.
2016-04-20T18:59:45Z kenanb`: varjag: works on Windows 8.1 with both CCL and SBCL, will test in linux now, just to be safe
2016-04-20T19:00:09Z varjag: very cool thanks
2016-04-20T19:01:08Z varjag: kenanb`: need your name to put on the contrib list, and will make a PR to sharplispers then
2016-04-20T19:01:16Z jsgrant: mordocai: Yeah, but wasn't the estimate 100mil not 10mil?
2016-04-20T19:01:25Z jsgrant: Maybe I misread it though, very zonked atm.
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2016-04-20T19:02:56Z mordocai: jsgrant: Unless i'm crazy, that math is 100mil. Not that it matters either way of course
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2016-04-20T19:04:56Z flip214: what's the best way to pass similar argument lists between functions and/or macros and functions?
2016-04-20T19:05:25Z jsgrant: mordocai: OOOOOOOOOOHH duh, okay, I see what I did; Took 10% not 1%.
2016-04-20T19:05:40Z kenanb`: varjag: thank you! :) It is Kenan Bölükbaşı.
2016-04-20T19:05:42Z flip214: Ie. if both take similar &key arguments, and the macro shouldn't need to write   ,@ (if level `(:level ,level))
2016-04-20T19:06:02Z jsgrant is glad he has no intellectual taxing work left today, because he's somefactor of mush at this point.
2016-04-20T19:06:05Z flip214: to keep the default values for the arguments of the function, for every function
2016-04-20T19:06:40Z flip214: similar for functions ... building an argument list to use with APPLY doesn't look that nice
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2016-04-20T19:07:08Z flip214: but I don't really want to have to copy the defaults for the arguments to every higher-level function/macro
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2016-04-20T19:09:42Z mordocai: flip214: Idk, write a macro to define functions with those defaults? I haven't really run into your problem, not sure.
2016-04-20T19:10:38Z flip214: mordocai: another example: some class has :initforms... and a macro should emit a "(make-instance ,class)" with *some* initial values
2016-04-20T19:12:02Z pjb: fouric: assumedly, slime knows how to tell emacs that an operator is a macro (and how to indent it).  I would guess it also tells it it's a macro for font-locking purpose, but I may be wrong.  In any case, you could hook on this slime mechanism (learning what symbols name macros), and use it to build a font-lock regexp to colorize them as you wish.
2016-04-20T19:14:05Z varjag: kenanb`: there we go!
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2016-04-20T19:14:48Z pjb: jsgrant: this is ridiculous: rss, twits, facebook, whatever, you'd want to gather all the streams together under a singe interface. But already twitter/facebook et al. are dumb, having a single life line for multiple threads. So you'd want to collect all the information, and sort it out into multiple news groups, and provide it thru nntp.
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2016-04-20T19:15:58Z pjb: jsgrant: and of course, like with usenet, to avoid dups.  You don't care where it come froms, hacker news, flipboard, twitter, rss, etc. Sometimes I get the same information thru half a dozen different channels!  usenet is really the summum.
2016-04-20T19:17:00Z varjag: Xach: new pr
2016-04-20T19:18:24Z jsgrant: pjb: Ultimately though, don't "other sourced" sites like Facebook & Twitter, have some RSS support as well? But yeah, I agree the aptness we have to reinvent tech and it really be not much, if tangibly any "better".
2016-04-20T19:18:33Z jsgrant is too young to remember/use Usenet.
2016-04-20T19:18:53Z jsgrant: 23, got my first "personal" computer at 16 or-so.
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2016-04-20T19:23:17Z jasom: I didn't use usenet until college, well after its heyday, but comp.lang.lisp was active still at that point
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2016-04-20T19:24:10Z jsgrant: jasom: Assuming not so much, nowadays?
2016-04-20T19:25:32Z jasom just checked; looks fairly active
2016-04-20T19:25:42Z kenanb`: varjag: so cool! thank you! btw I just tested on Arch Linux x86 CCL, SBCL and Clisp, works like a charm with all.
2016-04-20T19:25:49Z varjag: good to know
2016-04-20T19:25:51Z jasom: 4 threads with replies today
2016-04-20T19:26:55Z jsgrant might diddle around with GNUS then, I'm sure that'd be practically the only one'd I'd check.
2016-04-20T19:26:59Z jasom: I haven't really used it since my ISP stopped offering NNTP 6 years ago
2016-04-20T19:28:57Z jsgrant should probably re-setup up GNUS anyways, I was planning to switch to Wunderlust and slowly worked to that direction -- but never made the leap.
2016-04-20T19:28:57Z kenanb`: varjag: beach will probably also be happy to hear it is fixed because he was planning on using opticl which relies on cl-jpeg.
2016-04-20T19:29:34Z varjag: oh
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2016-04-20T19:31:51Z mordocai is really liking GNUS
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2016-04-20T19:32:46Z jsgrant: mordocai: Don't like the occasional lock-ups, but sans that, yeah it's pretty slick.
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2016-04-20T19:35:19Z prxq: the thing it has going for it is the text editor.
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2016-04-20T20:07:45Z gnome1: does sbcl have something to optimize (cons xxx (recursive-call-here))? (it seems this is called tail recursion/call modulo cons?)
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2016-04-20T20:09:36Z varjag: is there anything like (ccl:heap-utilization) in sbcl?
2016-04-20T20:10:12Z dwrngr: (sb-kernel::dynamic-usage) gives you the size in bytes
2016-04-20T20:10:30Z dwrngr: and (sb-ext:dynamic-space-size) shows you the alottment
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2016-04-20T20:10:56Z dwrngr: not sure what the CCL function you mentioned does specifically, sorry ;p
2016-04-20T20:10:58Z gnome1: ... or maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing and such calls are actually already optimized?
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2016-04-20T20:13:12Z mordocai: gnome1: Might try #sbcl too for that. I don't know the answer
2016-04-20T20:14:16Z varjag: dwrngr: it's a bit different, ccl shows break-up by allocated objects of different types
2016-04-20T20:15:30Z varjag: gnome1: "SBCL always merged tail-calls when possible. To disable tail merging, structure the code to avoid the tail position instead. "
2016-04-20T20:15:32Z varjag: per the manual
2016-04-20T20:16:35Z sjl: nice, my prolog wam has backtracking now https://i.imgur.com/Si7Fw7G.png
2016-04-20T20:16:44Z sjl: need to figure out how to make the ui more lispy
2016-04-20T20:16:47Z sjl: but that's the easy part
2016-04-20T20:16:51Z varjag: gnome1: however your example is not tail recursive
2016-04-20T20:17:26Z dmiles: sjl: run it in emacs :)
2016-04-20T20:17:57Z sjl: dmiles: http://bit.ly/emacs-user
2016-04-20T20:18:33Z dmiles thinks you will get neckbeard goat.sed
2016-04-20T20:18:35Z pjb: jasom: you've got two good cheap/free usenet providers: individual.net and eternal-september.org
2016-04-20T20:18:43Z dmiles himself that is
2016-04-20T20:19:04Z dmiles: hehe .. i did!
2016-04-20T20:19:22Z varjag: sjl: no modelines in octo's bottom buffers, are you sure it's actually emacs? :p
2016-04-20T20:19:33Z sjl: varjag: I use vim
2016-04-20T20:19:42Z varjag: figured!
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2016-04-20T20:21:13Z phoe_krk: I have a problem.
2016-04-20T20:21:23Z phoe_krk: I need to write a script in Lisp that uses networking.
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2016-04-20T20:21:32Z phoe_krk: For this, it looks like I'll need usocket.
2016-04-20T20:21:56Z phoe_krk: The trouble is, how do I fetch it if the script is meant to be run as in "sbcl --script file.lisp"?
2016-04-20T20:22:37Z phoe_krk: Does including it as a dependency in the script folder and loading it with ASDF sound like a sane idea at all?
2016-04-20T20:22:53Z dmiles: sjl: you can go theoter way with.. https://gist.github.com/logicmoo/9d8668fab4f44307b02fbe3f7b262ef6#file-cb-prolog-lisp-L2077-L2617
2016-04-20T20:23:12Z sjl: phoe_krk: are you intending to distribute this thing to other people?  or just something for your own use?
2016-04-20T20:23:49Z phoe_krk: sjl: distibute.
2016-04-20T20:24:08Z sjl: dmiles: nah, sexps are the one true syntax
2016-04-20T20:24:27Z pjb: phoe_krk: for scripts, I use clisp and its socket directly.  When you have to use quicklisp libraries, I would not call that  a script anymore, but a program. Then "compile" it, generating an executable image with everything loaded in.
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2016-04-20T20:24:55Z sjl: phoe_krk: one option is to build a fat binary and distribute that, instead of lisp source files
2016-04-20T20:25:08Z jackdaniel: cl-launch is your thing phoe_krk
2016-04-20T20:25:10Z dmiles: sjl: hah i meant to say that to you in the other hannel
2016-04-20T20:25:15Z sjl: dmiles: lol
2016-04-20T20:25:16Z dmiles: *channel
2016-04-20T20:25:19Z sjl: it's lisp-related
2016-04-20T20:25:27Z pjb: phoe_krk: the alternative is to "install" your scripts with its dependencies in eg. /usr/local, so you'd have a quicklisp distribution there for each of your scritps (they may use different versions of the same dependencies).
2016-04-20T20:25:49Z pjb: phoe_krk: but most definitely, not ~/quicklisp, since that renders the script dependent on the user!
2016-04-20T20:26:05Z phoe_krk: hell, Lisp still isn't an acceptable scripting language.
2016-04-20T20:26:25Z pjb: clisp is.
2016-04-20T20:26:33Z phoe_krk: Let me download clisp.
2016-04-20T20:26:34Z sjl: phoe_krk: I've poked at roswell a bit and it's worked okay for a couple of scripts for me
2016-04-20T20:26:43Z jackdaniel: check out cl-launch
2016-04-20T20:26:48Z gnome1: including it and loading it should be sane, as far as licenses allow that
2016-04-20T20:27:13Z gnome1: honestly, I'd be more frustrated by a script whose first action is to randomly download something from the internet instead of having everything it needs
2016-04-20T20:27:29Z pjb: phoe_krk: there's yet another solution for your scripts: save an executable image loaded with all the libraries you may want to use in your scripts, and use that instead of sbcl as script interpreter.
2016-04-20T20:27:32Z gnome1: meanwhile, let me download here the boostrap online installer that installs the online installer for that web browser
2016-04-20T20:27:52Z gnome1: saving core images is at least how maxima is installed in some distributions
2016-04-20T20:28:06Z dmiles: sjl: thugh to answer your question the PAIP way i suppose  is one way
2016-04-20T20:28:17Z gnome1: you can still have a script calling sbcl with a --core filename option
2016-04-20T20:28:41Z pjb: phoe_krk: so the script is kept as lisp source file with #! but instead of #!/usr/bin/sbcl you use #!/usr/local/bin/fully-loaded-scripting-common-lisp
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2016-04-20T20:28:55Z dmiles: sjl: in my url everything above the hightlighted was PAIP-ish everything below was for CYC and prolog
2016-04-20T20:29:11Z sjl: dmiles: yeah, paiprolog's syntax is... okay
2016-04-20T20:29:17Z phoe_krk: pjb: I want to be able to distribute the script as a .lisp file to someone else so they can run it on their screen with a shell command.
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2016-04-20T20:29:47Z dmiles: sjl: well btw i decided prolog terms needed to be records
2016-04-20T20:29:48Z pjb: phoe_krk: they have /bin/bash. you can provide them /usr/local/bin/fully-loaded-scripting-common-lisp too.
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2016-04-20T20:30:07Z sjl: dmiles: records?
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2016-04-20T20:30:17Z pjb: phoe_krk: otherwise, you can implement a CL in bash.
2016-04-20T20:30:39Z jackdaniel: phoe_krk: http://fare.livejournal.com/184127.html
2016-04-20T20:30:41Z dmiles: sjl: becasue i wantred (and was required) to have round trip between lisp and prolog.. i didnt 3want datatype to be lost when calling between
2016-04-20T20:30:48Z jackdaniel: "Common Lisp as a Scripting Language, 2015 edition"
2016-04-20T20:30:58Z pjb: Nowadays, even Windows-10 users can run bash scripts :-)
2016-04-20T20:31:01Z dmiles: sjl: so lisp cons had to be prolog lists
2016-04-20T20:31:25Z sjl: dmiles: yeah I haven't really thought too much about the mapping between prolog lists and lisp lists here yet
2016-04-20T20:31:33Z sjl: this may end up biting me
2016-04-20T20:32:19Z dmiles: sjl: prolog terms  foo(a,b) became structures records  (make-structure 'foo/2 (arg1 a ) (arg2 b))
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2016-04-20T20:32:25Z pjb: phoe_krk: when you start writing serious bash scripts, you also have dependencies to deal with.  My bash scripts start with source ${installdir}/utils.bash ; require module1 module2 … modulen ; …
2016-04-20T20:32:50Z sjl: dmiles: oh, you mean actual defstructs?
2016-04-20T20:33:01Z dmiles: (make-foo/2 a b) ==> foo(a,b)
2016-04-20T20:33:03Z dmiles: yeah
2016-04-20T20:33:07Z pjb: phoe_krk: but in bash, you cannot save a loaded bash image with all those modules included.
2016-04-20T20:33:39Z sjl: yeah I was hoping to avoid that and come up with some intuitive way to flip between lists and terms
2016-04-20T20:33:44Z dmiles: sjl: i started that pain (making the structure things) early so it stopped being painfull later
2016-04-20T20:33:46Z sjl: maybe quasiquoting or something?
2016-04-20T20:34:08Z sjl: (rule (member :x '(:x . :?)))
2016-04-20T20:34:43Z dmiles: i suppose that makes things easier for now :P
2016-04-20T20:34:55Z sjl: which would expand into (rule (member :x (quote (:x . :?))) and 'quote could be a magic operator here
2016-04-20T20:35:45Z dmiles: i have tried doing that .. its sensible.. and works for a while
2016-04-20T20:35:58Z dmiles: (i just quoted prolgo lists that is)
2016-04-20T20:36:21Z sjl: yeah, (foo bar) -> foo(bar)  and (quote (foo bar)) -> [foo bar]
2016-04-20T20:36:31Z sjl: I'm sure it's more complicated than that
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2016-04-20T20:37:42Z dmiles: i endded happer not have O*N operations of structures
2016-04-20T20:38:23Z dmiles: also though i wanted to smoth way to interact wiht lisp defstructs from prolgo anyway
2016-04-20T20:38:53Z sjl: I mean, this is just for getting the lisp data structure into/out of the WAM bytecode/heap
2016-04-20T20:39:01Z dmiles: *nod*
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2016-04-20T20:39:21Z sjl: so the structures are O(n) but it's only when you're compiling them or extracting results
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2016-04-20T20:39:54Z dmiles: right this is just the I/O stuff .. in runtime you can do it in oter ways
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2016-04-20T20:40:18Z xristos: sjl: how does it perform against paiprolog?
2016-04-20T20:40:31Z sjl: at runtime it's just (unsigned-byte 16) pointer-chasing, lol
2016-04-20T20:40:34Z xristos: phoe_krk: if all you care about is sbcl, just use sb-bsd-sockets
2016-04-20T20:40:38Z xristos: it's built-in
2016-04-20T20:40:48Z sjl: xristos: not sure yet, I just now got backtracking implemented
2016-04-20T20:40:53Z sjl: haven't even run 'hg commit' yet
2016-04-20T20:40:55Z sjl: lol
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2016-04-20T20:41:12Z pjb: phoe_krk: if you want lisp to be script ready, you need to write a script that all users will want to use, so that distributions will have to install your lisp implementation as a dependency for your script.
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2016-04-20T20:45:03Z xristos: sjl: i guess you should also try it vs lispworks prolog if you have access to it (or someone else can do it), since i think it's also WAM based
2016-04-20T20:45:31Z xristos: allegro is based on paip though they claim big speed improvements
2016-04-20T20:46:54Z sjl: xristos: yeah, currently a grad student so money is not bountiful at the moment
2016-04-20T20:47:00Z dmiles: i found a 3rd impl of prolog in lisp (separate from those other two)
2016-04-20T20:47:11Z sjl: but I'm planning on making some benchmarking stuff, should be easy to run on other implementation
2016-04-20T20:48:11Z dmiles: (this other 3rd one is probly flaster than PIAP but slower than WAM  https://github.com/Johnicholas/Hello-Github/tree/master/prolog-in-hundreds-of-loc/Boizumault )
2016-04-20T20:48:37Z dmiles: ( microPrologII )
2016-04-20T20:48:42Z sjl: dmiles: > 8/12/93
2016-04-20T20:48:43Z xristos: sjl: yeah i think it'd be interesting
2016-04-20T20:48:52Z xristos: cause i suspect they're full of shit re: their performance claims
2016-04-20T20:48:55Z sjl: does it still run 23 years later? lol
2016-04-20T20:49:04Z sjl: xristos: lol which "they"
2016-04-20T20:49:07Z xristos: both
2016-04-20T20:49:15Z xristos: allegro and lispworks
2016-04-20T20:49:28Z sjl: ah
2016-04-20T20:49:50Z dmiles: sjl: for got to mention this the otehr day :P  https://github.com/Johnicholas/Hello-Github/tree/master/prolog-in-hundreds-of-loc/Boizumault/microWam
2016-04-20T20:49:58Z sjl: haha yeah I just saw that
2016-04-20T20:50:16Z sjl: uhhh yeah this isn't a wam https://github.com/Johnicholas/Hello-Github/blob/master/prolog-in-hundreds-of-loc/Boizumault/microWam/unify.lsp
2016-04-20T20:50:29Z dmiles: naw thats a fallback
2016-04-20T20:50:41Z dmiles: also WAM doesnt actualy define unify
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2016-04-20T20:51:16Z sjl: dmiles: https://i.imgur.com/12cNz9I.png
2016-04-20T20:51:18Z dmiles: oh wait sorry of course it defined unify.. but
2016-04-20T20:52:49Z dmiles: though to me that is not WAM the (https://i.imgur.com/12cNz9I.png) but more like a helper
2016-04-20T20:53:00Z dmiles: but wam does define the side effect of a unify
2016-04-20T20:53:29Z dmiles: (that is defines the side effecT) .. just not acutaly inliniung it into wam icode
2016-04-20T20:53:32Z sjl: lol I love the "Makefile" that's just a shell script with no #! https://github.com/Johnicholas/Hello-Github/blob/master/prolog-in-hundreds-of-loc/Boizumault/microWam/Make
2016-04-20T20:53:41Z sjl: just cats all the .lsp files into one big lisp file
2016-04-20T20:53:45Z sjl: beautiful
2016-04-20T20:53:57Z Xach: well, looks like cells has gone allegro-only
2016-04-20T20:54:17Z Xach drops it
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2016-04-20T20:55:17Z dmiles: (in compiling prolog code you dont actualy convert unify to WAM)
2016-04-20T20:55:43Z dmiles: (that i know of)
2016-04-20T20:56:27Z sjl: it's part of the interpreter code
2016-04-20T20:56:36Z sjl: a few of the opcodes call it
2016-04-20T20:57:12Z sjl: at least, according to this book
2016-04-20T20:57:20Z sjl: and you probably know my feelings on this book by this point
2016-04-20T20:57:25Z sjl: so who knows
2016-04-20T20:57:46Z dmiles: oh true yep that makes sense.. it is compilable to WAM .. just not inlinable
2016-04-20T20:58:19Z dmiles: lack of inlinablity slightly to me is what disqualifies it
2016-04-20T20:59:27Z dmiles: as much part of wam as assert/1 or writeq/1 :)
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2016-04-20T21:00:40Z sjl: I mean, it's not THAT big of a function, it's mostly just poking at two heap addresses
2016-04-20T21:00:46Z sjl: it might be inlinable
2016-04-20T21:00:48Z sjl: https://bitbucket.org/sjl/bones/src/dc6892a9a406182a7fc88c33918c683d08bc9474/src/wam/interpreter.lisp?at=default&fileviewer=file-view-default#interpreter.lisp-110:142
2016-04-20T21:01:22Z dmiles: https://github.com/Johnicholas/Hello-Github/blob/master/prolog-in-hundreds-of-loc/Boizumault/microWam/V2.lsp#L337
2016-04-20T21:02:04Z sjl: dmiles: yeah that's just dealing with vanilla lisp data structures
2016-04-20T21:02:09Z sjl: not WAM bytecode
2016-04-20T21:02:17Z sjl: dunno why it's called "WAM"
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2016-04-20T21:03:52Z dmiles: hrrm both those codebase (yours and the one i posted) seem to push/pop the same places
2016-04-20T21:04:27Z dmiles: (my pop is a macro that reads the global refs)
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2016-04-20T21:07:59Z dmiles: an inlinification i was thinking about is where the variables are preknoiwn and the strucures are ingored
2016-04-20T21:08:02Z Xach: sjl: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Abstract_Machine
2016-04-20T21:08:16Z sjl: Xach: ?
2016-04-20T21:08:24Z sjl: oh
2016-04-20T21:08:28Z Xach: Sorry, perhaps I don't have enough context to tell if that's helpful or not.
2016-04-20T21:08:31Z sjl: no I know why the WAM is called WAM
2016-04-20T21:08:35Z Xach: Ok.
2016-04-20T21:08:42Z sjl: I've been implementing it for the past month, heh
2016-04-20T21:08:54Z sjl: I don't know what that lisp code above calls itself a wam
2016-04-20T21:09:03Z sjl: when it doesn't implement the actual wam
2016-04-20T21:09:43Z dmiles: an inlinification i was thinking about are when variables are preknown:  so instead of a(B,c)=a(X,Y),    -->   inlinifations is   B=X,c=Y
2016-04-20T21:10:15Z kenanb: Xach: I see that you accepted the PR to cl-json. but I guess the plan is still to include it in next release, right?
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2016-04-20T21:12:09Z dmiles: sjl: i didnt study microWAM,  but microPrologII (that i studied) uses the same datastructures that WAM would need to work .. but ends up interprpeting into the WAM machinery..   perhap microWAM only ever does that to
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2016-04-20T21:13:38Z gnome1: if I did tail recursion modulo cons right, it's working wonderfully, it ain't anything sophisticated, just passing the end-to-be of the list around to setf it
2016-04-20T21:13:47Z gnome1: how I miss the fun days of playing with lisp
2016-04-20T21:13:49Z gnome1: *sniff*
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2016-04-20T21:19:24Z phoe_krk: Okay, I got the CLISP script done.
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2016-04-20T21:51:35Z pjb: phoe_krk: congratulations.
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2016-04-20T21:51:52Z Xach: kenanb: i am hoping to add it this time around
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2016-04-20T22:52:31Z deba5e12: hey, anyone here familiar with the iolib library?
2016-04-20T22:53:51Z kenanb: Xach: wow, great! I hope that works out. Thank you for the effort!
2016-04-20T22:53:58Z deba5e12: ah, nvm. problem solved as i was trying to type it out, as usual.
2016-04-20T22:54:11Z bullets joined #lisp
2016-04-20T22:54:29Z deba5e12: (I was reading the 127 in my localhost addr as #x127. forgot that i'd changed that setting.)
2016-04-20T23:00:03Z fe[nl]ix: deba5e12: I'm the author
2016-04-20T23:00:16Z fe[nl]ix: if you have any issues, feel free to ask here or on #iolib
2016-04-20T23:00:39Z deba5e12: it's a sweet library! I'd just been stubbing my toe on my own stupidity for a moment, i'm afraid.
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2016-04-20T23:01:01Z deba5e12: but it's substantially less fussy than usocket. nice work there.
2016-04-20T23:01:11Z fe[nl]ix: thank you
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2016-04-21T03:45:18Z buttlery: re. what's new?
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2016-04-21T03:47:39Z Zhivago: Many unique creatures perished.
2016-04-21T03:48:44Z buttlery: what genus?
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2016-04-21T03:59:54Z oleo: morning
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2016-04-21T04:04:40Z buttlery: 'morning.
2016-04-21T04:04:49Z buttlery: how're ye?
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2016-04-21T04:18:17Z fouric: infoobot: dns
2016-04-21T04:18:34Z fouric: Whoops, ignore that
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2016-04-21T04:22:03Z warweasle: Can someone ping back my handle. I'm testing rcirc-notify
2016-04-21T04:23:20Z warweasle: Thanks
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2016-04-21T04:24:44Z pillton:  (loop (irc-ping "warweasle") (sleep 0.1))
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2016-04-21T04:24:50Z pillton: Oh whoops. Wrong terminal.
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2016-04-21T04:27:03Z warweasle: pillton: Funny. It worked in this buffer.
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2016-04-21T04:29:37Z loke: warweasle: Is this you?
2016-04-21T04:29:37Z loke: http://typicalgenius.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WAR_WEASEL_THUMB-600x290.png
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2016-04-21T04:36:40Z warweasle: loke: I LOVE IT. Is there more of it? I can only see the top left.
2016-04-21T04:36:53Z loke: warweasle: I just googled :-)
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2016-04-21T04:37:38Z loke: http://typicalgenius.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/WAR_WEASEL_LOGO.png
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2016-04-21T04:38:24Z warweasle: loke: I also like: http://www.usafa.edu/cadetFocus/cadetPhotos/sq-patches/sp-images/35SQ.GIF
2016-04-21T04:39:35Z loke: Better than the picture I found for pillton:
2016-04-21T04:39:37Z loke: https://www.iconexperience.com/_img/v_collection_png/512x512/shadow/pill_blue.png
2016-04-21T04:40:01Z warweasle: loke: That's one hell of a suppository.
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2016-04-21T05:00:31Z fouric: cd 7
2016-04-21T05:00:46Z fouric: (ignore that too)
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2016-04-21T05:25:04Z beach: Good morning everyone!
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2016-04-21T05:29:27Z jack_rip_vim: hi
2016-04-21T05:32:13Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Are you new here?
2016-04-21T05:32:23Z jack_rip_vim: yes
2016-04-21T05:32:36Z jack_rip_vim: any problems?
2016-04-21T05:32:42Z beach: Not at all.
2016-04-21T05:33:20Z jack_rip_vim: just begin to learn it in two week?
2016-04-21T05:33:30Z beach: Great!
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2016-04-21T05:34:17Z jack_rip_vim: how long you learn lisp?
2016-04-21T05:34:40Z beach: Me?  Oh, I started in 1976 or so.
2016-04-21T05:35:13Z jack_rip_vim: 0.0
2016-04-21T05:35:54Z jack_rip_vim: I am pretty new ...
2016-04-21T05:36:14Z nalik891: freenode: The Platoons sanctuary
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2016-04-21T05:38:38Z jack_rip_vim: maybe next week, I will ok with lisp
2016-04-21T05:40:04Z Nikotiin` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-04-21T05:40:12Z beach: Why wait?
2016-04-21T05:42:07Z jack_rip_vim: need more practice.
2016-04-21T05:42:07Z nalik891 quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2016-04-21T05:42:44Z jack_rip_vim: still feel strange
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2016-04-21T05:43:22Z jack_rip_vim: (0.o)(o.0)(o.o)
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2016-04-21T05:44:03Z jack_rip_vim: can't handle '(',')'
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2016-04-21T05:48:37Z beach: Yeah, maybe best to do C# or something like that instead.
2016-04-21T05:48:50Z jack_rip_vim: why?
2016-04-21T05:49:08Z beach: Since you can't handle the parentheses.
2016-04-21T05:49:22Z Nikotiin` quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2016-04-21T05:49:56Z jack_rip_vim: it doesn't mean i can't do it.
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2016-04-21T05:50:07Z beach: Oh, OK.  Sorry then.
2016-04-21T05:50:34Z jack_rip_vim: I will do it, then perfect next week
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2016-04-21T05:50:53Z beach: OK, great!
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2016-04-21T05:53:28Z jack_rip_vim: need to back to job. see you later
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2016-04-21T05:59:25Z beach: Yep, me too.
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2016-04-21T06:57:11Z flip214: "Learn X in 4 days" - or not. http://norvig.com/21-days.html
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2016-04-21T06:58:32Z fouric: "Have the good sense to get off the language standardization effort as quickly as possible."
2016-04-21T06:58:35Z fouric: Wise advice.
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2016-04-21T07:24:27Z KiBi1__: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-04-21T07:27:07Z igam: Wouldn't it be more correct to say that it might be a wonderful day, you'll know really only at the end of the day.  For all we know, it might be Judgement Day, and it won't be wonderful for everybody…
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2016-04-21T07:28:13Z flip214: igam: but at least up to the moment of stating that it's a nice it was a nice day, right?
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2016-04-21T07:28:52Z flip214: and if day turns to night the short "day" still was nice ;)
2016-04-21T07:29:56Z trinitr0n:  /wi 35
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2016-04-21T07:32:01Z fouric: Question from someone not entirely new to Lisp but still learning: How can I get Emacs+SLIME to work with ASDF? That is, how can I open a file that's part of an ASDF system, and have C-c C-k work properly?
2016-04-21T07:32:52Z fouric: I've never figured exactly how I should do the above, and so I've been stuck with just using `eval-when` to `load` a bunch of other source files :(
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2016-04-21T07:34:52Z jackdaniel: fouric: you have to add directory with your system to the asdf:*central-registry*, then asdf:load-system should work
2016-04-21T07:35:24Z jackdaniel: more common approach though (during the development) is to install quicklisp and put your own systems in ~/quicklisp/local-projects
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2016-04-21T07:35:42Z jackdaniel: then you'll be able to (ql:quickload 'my-system), and it should pull all the deps if not present on your system
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2016-04-21T07:35:50Z jackdaniel: quicklisp piggybacks on asdf
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2016-04-21T07:37:27Z fouric: Hm...
2016-04-21T07:37:31Z fouric tries
2016-04-21T07:38:17Z jackdaniel: if you're using bare asdf you may want to put in your implementations init file, or manually in repl type (require 'asdf)
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2016-04-21T07:39:41Z fouric: Oh, I probably should have read past your first two messages. Putting stuff in ~/quicklisp/local-projects (or at least symlinks from there) seems like it's what I want to do
2016-04-21T07:39:54Z jackdaniel: great! :-)
2016-04-21T07:40:14Z jackdaniel: I've got to go, have a nice day ;)
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2016-04-21T07:41:07Z fouric: You too! Thanks for your help!
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2016-04-21T07:47:31Z fouric: Yet another question: why is it that I can use Quicklisp to load cl-sdl2, but not cl-sdl2-ttf? Unless I'm mistaken, they're both on the Quicklisp releases page (https://www.quicklisp.org/beta/releases.html)
2016-04-21T07:48:48Z loke: fouric: The package is calles "sdl2-ttf", not "cl-sdl2-ttf"
2016-04-21T07:49:45Z fouric: Tried to load that, it failed.
2016-04-21T07:50:04Z loke: fouric: "it failed" is not a good error description.
2016-04-21T07:50:26Z fouric: Sorry, bad habit.
2016-04-21T07:50:33Z fouric: System not found.
2016-04-21T07:51:06Z fouric: "System \"sdl2-ttf\" not found", to be precise.
2016-04-21T07:51:30Z fouric: It's listed on the Releases pages, though, so it definitely *should* be there...
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2016-04-21T07:52:38Z fouric: loke: ^
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2016-04-21T07:56:15Z jackdaniel: fouric: try first (ql:update-client) and (ql:update-all-dists)
2016-04-21T07:56:49Z jackdaniel: and after that (ql:quickload 'sdl2-ttf)
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2016-04-21T08:02:30Z fouric: ...
2016-04-21T08:02:50Z fouric: Well, apparently the problem is not with the computer, but with the user behind it :P
2016-04-21T08:02:59Z fouric: That worked perfectly, won't make that mistake again
2016-04-21T08:03:16Z fouric: jackdaniel! Thanks! (pardon my "!" nick auto-complete char)
2016-04-21T08:03:39Z jackdaniel: from my little experience it's almost always problem on the user side (except situations where it isn't)
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2016-04-21T08:04:04Z jackdaniel: I had once problem with bug in openrisc processor ;)
2016-04-21T08:05:29Z fouric: Oh gosh
2016-04-21T08:05:33Z fouric: That sounds terrifying
2016-04-21T08:07:21Z jackdaniel: was pretty amusing actually
2016-04-21T08:07:44Z jackdaniel: this heisen-bug appeared only when program was debugged with gdb
2016-04-21T08:08:04Z josteink: solution: debug it with lldb instead
2016-04-21T08:08:14Z jackdaniel: putting breakpoint and recoverying from it was ommiting one instruction
2016-04-21T08:08:42Z jackdaniel: josteink: I'm not sure if lldb works for openrisc yet. Also this bug may be triggered by lldb as well
2016-04-21T08:09:18Z jackdaniel: afair it's fixed now (in openrisc). I've mentioned it just for amusement ;)
2016-04-21T08:09:57Z josteink: it was mostly meant as a joke ;)
2016-04-21T08:10:13Z jackdaniel: ah :)
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2016-04-21T08:14:21Z igam: flip214: yes, you can consider that so far it has been a wonderful (start of a) day.
2016-04-21T08:14:44Z flip214: igam: good for you! hope you'll have many more of them.
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2016-04-21T08:16:50Z igam: You can also put symlinks to your project directory in ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ ; that works nicely for me.
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2016-04-21T11:03:03Z knobo1: With "ros build myapp.ros" I get an error during build.: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314244
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2016-04-21T11:05:33Z knobo1: Does anyone know what it could be?
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2016-04-21T11:14:51Z jdz: it could be that the save-lisp-and-die is killing off threads before doing its job
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2016-04-21T11:17:16Z scymtym: s-l-a-d signals an error if other threads are running. it does not terminate threads.
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2016-04-21T11:18:58Z jdz: good.  then it might be that roswell is doing it.  and has a race condition where it is trying to end the threads nicely and forcefully.
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2016-04-21T11:23:32Z knobo1: jdz: should I try to insert a sleep somewhere, then?
2016-04-21T11:23:36Z knobo1: just to test
2016-04-21T11:23:40Z knobo1: But I would not know where.
2016-04-21T11:23:47Z jdz: god no, not the sleep approach!
2016-04-21T11:24:14Z jdz: sorry i cannot help -- i have not used roswell
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2016-04-21T11:25:03Z scymtym: seems to be this https://github.com/7max/log4cl/blob/master/src/watcher.lisp#L106. may be unrelated to roswell
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2016-04-21T11:26:05Z jdz: that's a good find
2016-04-21T11:27:08Z jdz: oh, the blame shows a story
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2016-04-21T11:28:58Z scymtym: right, it used ignore-errors at point, hiding the error
2016-04-21T11:29:10Z scymtym: *at some point
2016-04-21T11:30:55Z jdz: the fewer instances of IGNORE-ERRORS, the better
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2016-04-21T11:40:23Z knobo1: it happens when I include the datafly package
2016-04-21T11:40:49Z knobo1: I created an enpty project with only package dependancies, and did a binary search
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2016-04-21T11:56:40Z knobo1: https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly/issues/9
2016-04-21T11:56:52Z knobo1: Would datafly be the right place to submit this issue?
2016-04-21T11:57:05Z knobo1: well, now I have done it, so it better be right.
2016-04-21T11:57:17Z knobo1: :)
2016-04-21T11:57:52Z jsgrant: Wow, Roswell is a lot more nifty than I initially thought.
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2016-04-21T12:00:07Z knobo1: Would be interesting to know if anyone else got the same problem, or if it is just me.
2016-04-21T12:01:28Z jsgrant: knobo1: Give me a few, I'll run your *.ros script.
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2016-04-21T12:09:45Z sjl: knobo1: I get the same error when building that
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2016-04-21T12:10:20Z jsgrant: knobo1: http://paste.lisp.org/+6QH6
2016-04-21T12:10:23Z knobo1: hurray... kindof..
2016-04-21T12:10:24Z jsgrant: sjl: Same.
2016-04-21T12:10:43Z sjl: try it with ccl maybe?
2016-04-21T12:11:01Z sjl: sounds like that datafly thing is just spinning up a thread and not shutting it down when asked or something though
2016-04-21T12:11:31Z knobo1 doing ros install ccl
2016-04-21T12:15:09Z knobo1: ccl does not have this problem.
2016-04-21T12:15:21Z knobo1: or at least I don't get the error message
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2016-04-21T12:16:43Z sepi: What's the best way to inject some alist or plist into a parenscript script?
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2016-04-21T12:21:13Z flip214: sepi: convert to JSON?
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2016-04-21T12:23:37Z knobo1: with ccl my whole application works :)
2016-04-21T12:23:43Z knobo1: I never tried ccl before.
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2016-04-21T12:25:11Z scymtym: datafly seems to configure a threaded logging appender in https://github.com/fukamachi/datafly/blob/master/src/logger.lisp#L18
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2016-04-21T13:38:17Z knobo1: (vs 'sbcl 'ccl)
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2016-04-21T13:47:52Z varjag: kenanb: there?
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2016-04-21T16:25:26Z andrei-n: Is there such thing as a usable orm for lisp?
2016-04-21T16:27:55Z jasom: andrei-n: oh I just remembered one; https://github.com/eudoxia0/crane
2016-04-21T16:28:01Z flip214: andrei-n: cl-sql.
2016-04-21T16:28:55Z jdz: ORMs are overrated
2016-04-21T16:29:01Z jasom: also postmodern includes one that is postgres only
2016-04-21T16:29:31Z jasom: but in general I've noticed lispers tend to avoid ORMs
2016-04-21T16:30:16Z jasom: fukamachi has probably written 3 or so
2016-04-21T16:31:12Z jasom: oh, looks like only 2; one that says "don't use this, use Mito" and the docs for Mito says "ALPHA quality... APIs will be likely to change"
2016-04-21T16:32:49Z jackdaniel: A (use B)  --  B (use A)
2016-04-21T16:33:22Z sjl: related: is there something like https://github.com/krisajenkins/yesql in CL?
2016-04-21T16:34:02Z jasom: sjl: https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/postmodern/s-sql.html
2016-04-21T16:34:26Z sjl: jasom: no that's what I don't want
2016-04-21T16:34:30Z sjl: I want to write actual sql
2016-04-21T16:34:38Z sjl: not sexps that compile down to some subset of it
2016-04-21T16:35:19Z jasom: oh, I didn't read far enough down
2016-04-21T16:35:36Z andrei-n: Well, our professor in university is sadistic. He wants us to use an ORM in order for us to learn that ORM's are bad. He said it himself that he hates ORMs...
2016-04-21T16:35:39Z jasom: so the only thing it gives you is you write your sql queries in a separate files?
2016-04-21T16:35:53Z sjl: yesql handles parsing the files into strings, def'ing the symbols, and argument replacement
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2016-04-21T16:35:58Z sjl: but nothing else
2016-04-21T16:36:01Z jasom: andrei-n: that might backfire; ORMs are great for like the first 6 months you use them
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2016-04-21T16:36:50Z sjl: andrei-n: has he assigned the vietnam paper yet
2016-04-21T16:37:12Z sjl: http://blogs.tedneward.com/post/the-vietnam-of-computer-science/
2016-04-21T16:37:14Z sjl: that one
2016-04-21T16:37:22Z andrei-n: Well, I tried clsql and couldn't even make a simple example with two tables joined...
2016-04-21T16:38:11Z sjl: at my last job we used https://github.com/SimpleFinance/jdub and it was so damn refreshing to not have to deal with orm garbage
2016-04-21T16:38:47Z sjl: probably wouldn't be too hard to port that over to CL, if there's something like jdbc in the CL world that can handle actually shuttling the bytes to/from the DB
2016-04-21T16:40:13Z brpocock: sjl: I had to build a thing that wraps MySQL (specifically) tables in CLOS accessor wrappers a while back. If someone were excited about it, I could cut out the interesting bits from that if you wanted.
2016-04-21T16:40:42Z sjl: I think I just need to look at the existing libs to find which one to wrap
2016-04-21T16:40:45Z andrei-n: jdbc is ok. it's just sql. After having made several project with hibernate (a huge java orm), I think that the best thing is to make everything in jdbc.
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2016-04-21T16:41:08Z sjl: is there just a DB library that sends SQL over and gets records back?
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2016-04-21T16:41:16Z sjl: like jdbc for cl
2016-04-21T16:42:01Z brpocock: CL-DBI ?
2016-04-21T16:42:44Z sjl: oh yes this looks more like it
2016-04-21T16:42:56Z andrei-n: clsql seems to be able to do that: http://clsql.kpe.io/manual/query.html ... but I haven;t tested it...
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2016-04-21T16:47:47Z andrei-n: brpocock, I have to use postgres, and also, it seems that mysql is better supported in clsql..
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2016-04-21T16:48:46Z brpocock: I usually use PostModern for “real stuff” myself. You don't have to use S-SQL, but I usually prefer to do so.
2016-04-21T16:50:19Z dwrngr: i cant speak for postgres but i've been using clsql with ms sql server with few issues
2016-04-21T16:50:36Z brpocock: For little web-based CGI things, they usually have (only) MySQL on shared hosting servers so I fall back on CL-DBI for “little toy” things like that. … I'm sure there's lots of options in any case, just my 2¢
2016-04-21T16:50:39Z dwrngr: one caveat is that it seems to expect column names in a select statement to be in the same order they appear defined in the table
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2016-04-21T16:51:40Z dwrngr: otherwise it seems to choke on binding the result rows sometimes
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2016-04-21T16:55:30Z sjl: after poking at it, cl-dbi seems to do basically what I would need
2016-04-21T16:55:32Z sjl: nice
2016-04-21T16:56:26Z sjl: returns results as an interleaved list of (k v k v ...) instead of an alist, but I can live with that :)
2016-04-21T16:56:44Z jasom: sjl: that's a plist, and alexandria has a plist-to-alist function
2016-04-21T16:56:48Z brpocock: plist-alist is in Alexandria.
2016-04-21T16:56:51Z sjl: I suppose that does save a few bytes
2016-04-21T16:56:54Z sjl: yeah
2016-04-21T16:57:00Z jasom: sjl: I think it's identicaly sized
2016-04-21T16:57:23Z sjl: don't you need one more cons per pair for an alist?
2016-04-21T16:57:27Z jasom: both alists and plists use 2 cons cells per peair
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2016-04-21T16:58:10Z jasom: ((a . b)) <- two cons cells (a b) <- two cons cells
2016-04-21T16:58:27Z sjl: ah right
2016-04-21T16:58:29Z jasom: ((a . b) . nil) and (a . ( b. nil))
2016-04-21T16:58:34Z Bicyclidine: in any case, you can use getf, so accessing it isn't so bad
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2016-04-21T16:58:52Z sjl: yeah
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2016-04-21T18:24:05Z phoe_krk: Can I anyhow list *all* objects of a given class that are inside a Lisp image?
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2016-04-21T18:27:17Z phoe_krk: Or iterate through them?
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2016-04-21T18:32:32Z Bicyclidine: probably not, short of doing things like running through all of memory, i guess
2016-04-21T18:34:49Z Petit_Dejeuner: If there's a way to update every instance of a class after updating the class, shouldn't there be a way to list all objects of a given class?
2016-04-21T18:35:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_upda_1.htm
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2016-04-21T18:36:20Z reb: The updating can be lazy.  The system may have no global table of instances.
2016-04-21T18:37:26Z brpocock: I seem to think the only way you'd get that from python-based compilers (at least) would be to mosey into the compiler guts next door to the garbage collector / compactor routines and walk every object with something like #'typep …
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2016-04-21T18:37:28Z Bicyclidine: e.g., sbcl puts a trap on slot accesses and updates an instance then
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2016-04-21T18:47:43Z jasom: phoe_krk: if you control the class definition, you can add an initialize-instance method that stores a weak reference in a set
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2016-04-21T18:53:27Z PuercoPop: sjl: regarding yesql, one can use cl-interpol  https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/27gpmx/crane_an_orm_for_common_lisp/ci1q8ic
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2016-04-21T18:56:40Z sjl: PuercoPop: I'm not sure how this would help
2016-04-21T18:56:55Z sjl: you certainly don't want to interpolate arguments into the sql strings directly
2016-04-21T18:57:46Z sjl: yesql has a kinda janky parser that just searches out the argument names, turns them into ?'s in the string, and then builds the argument list to pass along
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2016-04-21T19:00:24Z PuercoPop: sjl: so like prepared statements on the client side?
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2016-04-21T19:04:23Z sjl: PuercoPop: yes
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2016-04-21T19:17:36Z phoe_krk: huh.
2016-04-21T19:17:51Z phoe_krk: bordeaux-threads looks like it could use a (setf thread-name).
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2016-04-21T19:18:21Z phoe_krk: I'll contribute for SBCL in a few days.
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2016-04-21T19:19:51Z Bicyclidine: can't you provide a name on creation?
2016-04-21T19:20:24Z phoe_krk: I can.
2016-04-21T19:20:37Z phoe_krk: But I want to update the name later on.
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2016-04-21T19:35:26Z Xach: There is a new Quicklisp dist update this day! the 67th!
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2016-04-21T19:37:44Z jackdaniel: Xach: congrats :-)
2016-04-21T19:38:21Z varjag: wee
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2016-04-21T19:42:56Z phoe_krk: <3
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2016-04-21T19:43:09Z phoe_krk: grats Xach!
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2016-04-21T20:25:40Z jasom: Do any implementations support longjmp to unwind past a callback written in lisp?
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2016-04-21T20:32:48Z rme: moore33: You don't happen to be around, do you?
2016-04-21T20:32:56Z fe[nl]ix: jasom: I wouldn't try that
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2016-04-21T20:33:48Z kenanb``: congrats Xach
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2016-04-21T20:45:29Z pjb: jasom: that would be an implementation of C, to support such a longjmp. Do you know a lot of C implementations that care about lisp?
2016-04-21T20:45:41Z pjb: jasom: you could try vaceitis.
2016-04-21T20:45:49Z pjb: and Zeta-C.
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2016-04-21T20:47:00Z pjb: Vacietis I mean. http://www.cliki.net/Vacietis
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2016-04-21T20:48:11Z jasom: pjb: I mean that Lisp -> C (which setjmp) -> Lisp callback function -> C (which longjmp)
2016-04-21T20:49:02Z pjb: setjmp and longjmp are C operators. They would need to know about lisp unwind-protect.  For this, the C compiler would have to care about lisp (or at least about a common mechanism).
2016-04-21T20:49:02Z jasom: It would not be impossible to have a lisp implementation that would be safe in the presence of that, but it seems unlikely to me that any implementation is safe
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2016-04-21T20:49:37Z pjb: On the other hand, you don't have to use the setjmp and longjmp found in libc.  You could provide your own.
2016-04-21T20:49:40Z jasom: pjb: I would expect that even if the lisp callback didn't use unwind-protect there would be issues
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2016-04-21T20:50:40Z pjb: But mind that jmp_buf is fixed by the standard C headers.
2016-04-21T20:50:57Z jasom: I think I'm going to go with my first instinct and shoot the writer of the library that decided longjmp() out of a function that was called as a callback was acceptible
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2016-04-21T20:52:03Z prxq: jasom: bindings to C tend to be a massive disappointment because of that kind of thing.
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2016-04-21T20:55:30Z pjb: On the other hand, you have the sources…
2016-04-21T20:56:06Z jasom: of course I also learned today that if you lonjmp past a stackframe with C11 variable length arrays, the implementation is permitted to not free that memory
2016-04-21T20:56:45Z jasom: s/c11/c99
2016-04-21T20:58:31Z prxq: of course. "when in doubt, disappoint"
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2016-04-21T20:59:07Z pjb: :-)
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2016-04-22T03:26:32Z emaczen: Where is the right place to set the *readtable*? I placed a (setf *readtable* ...) form in the first file in the components part of my defsystem
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2016-04-22T03:30:37Z loke: emaczen: I'd recommend using named-readtables.
2016-04-22T03:31:14Z emaczen: loke: This should be really simple though right?
2016-04-22T03:31:25Z loke: emaczen: The direct answer though is that you'll need to set it in an EVAL-WHEN
2016-04-22T03:31:34Z loke: the etting applies to the current file, only.
2016-04-22T03:31:45Z emaczen: etting
2016-04-22T03:31:46Z emaczen: ?
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2016-04-22T03:31:54Z loke: setting
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2016-04-22T03:32:12Z emaczen: Why only the current file?
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2016-04-22T03:33:43Z Bike: because "load binds *readtable* and *package* to the values they held before loading the file"
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2016-04-22T03:34:33Z loke: Or to put it in another way, there is a "dynamic binding" in place for those variables during the call to LOAD
2016-04-22T03:34:48Z loke: I was looking for the right place in the hyperspec to link to
2016-04-22T03:34:52Z Bike: it's a design decision that readtable and package don't persist between files. so that you can set them in a file without breaking your repl.
2016-04-22T03:35:13Z loke: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_load.htm
2016-04-22T03:35:29Z loke: And of course, that's exactly the page that Bike quoteed. :-)
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2016-04-22T03:36:03Z emaczen: So you have to place (eval-when (...) (setf r) forms at the top of each file
2016-04-22T03:36:19Z emaczen: that should be (setf *readtable* ...)
2016-04-22T03:36:25Z Bike: that would not help.
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2016-04-22T03:36:59Z Bike: compile-file binds the readtable and package as well. because changes in those are not meant to persist between files.
2016-04-22T03:37:18Z Bike: what you do, with something like named-readtables, is put an "in-readtable" form near the top of each file, in an analogous way to how you write "in-package".
2016-04-22T03:37:54Z Bike: er. i misread you. yes, a setf readtable in /every/ file would do it. sorry.
2016-04-22T03:38:16Z emaczen: inside an eval-when though right?
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2016-04-22T03:39:08Z Bike: probably.
2016-04-22T03:39:53Z emaczen: Bike: I'm not having any luck...
2016-04-22T03:39:59Z Bike: in what sense.
2016-04-22T03:40:03Z loke: emaczen: named-readtables
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2016-04-22T03:40:15Z emaczen: (eval-when (:compile :load-toplevel :execute)
2016-04-22T03:40:15Z emaczen:   (setf *readtable* co:*collections-readtable*)) -- I have that at the top of my file...
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2016-04-22T03:40:29Z Bike: okay, and in what sense does that not bring you luck.
2016-04-22T03:41:07Z emaczen: I use one of my reader-macros in that file and I get a reader-error when I load this system
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2016-04-22T03:42:54Z Bike: what is the reader error? does the readtable actually have the appropriate reader macros in it at that time?
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2016-04-22T03:43:34Z emaczen: Undefined character #\{ in a #\# dispatch macro
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2016-04-22T03:44:38Z Bike: that's one question down.
2016-04-22T03:45:04Z emaczen: I am using my reader-macro as the initialization-form in  :default-initargs in the file where I have placed (setf *readtable* ...)
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2016-04-22T03:47:51Z loke: emaczen: Paste your file.
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2016-04-22T03:48:27Z emaczen: one second... I think I see a potential issue
2016-04-22T03:48:38Z emaczen: I wrote :compile instead of :compile-toplevel
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2016-04-22T03:55:19Z emaczen: Ok that wasn't it.
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2016-04-22T03:56:01Z emaczen: I sorta figured it out though -- I am using CCL with the cocoa libraries which have their own reader-macros so instead of changing the readtable I just added to it.
2016-04-22T03:56:21Z emaczen: and it seems to be working
2016-04-22T03:57:27Z Bike: good job.
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2016-04-22T04:01:30Z aeth: Are T arrays better in memory than lists, or do only arrays with an #'upgraded-array-element-type other than T have the advantages typically associated with the array concept in general (outside of CL)?
2016-04-22T04:02:05Z Bike: "better than memory" isn't much of a thing.
2016-04-22T04:02:18Z Bike: caching will probably be better, if that's what you mean.
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2016-04-22T04:02:22Z aeth: yes
2016-04-22T04:02:29Z aeth: Better memory performance due to caching is what I mean.
2016-04-22T04:02:37Z aeth: Unless I have that wrong too
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2016-04-22T04:03:58Z aeth: I'm not a hardware person, but I was under the impression that arrays are better in caching and thus performance than linked lists, especially mutable ones like in Common Lisp where you can do basically whatever to them.
2016-04-22T04:04:22Z aeth: I was just wondering if that applies to generic arrays, or just to the ones like FIXNUM
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2016-04-22T04:05:30Z Bike: mutability isn't really the important part. how memory works, extremely briefly and sort of incorrectly, is that reading and writing to memory locations is so comparatively slow that smaller and faster memories are interpolated as caches, so that for example when you access location 1892, 1891 and 1893 come along with it into the cache so that when you access 1893 on the next part of your for loop you only
2016-04-22T04:05:36Z Bike: have to go as far as the cache memory.
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2016-04-22T04:05:58Z aeth: ah
2016-04-22T04:06:03Z Bike: dunno if that cut off. but the point is that it helps to have things in contiguous memory, which an array of any kind is probably going to involve.
2016-04-22T04:06:41Z aeth: Bike: Conceptually, I think a linked list is usually depicted where its members could be anywhere, and an array is usually depicted as contiguous.
2016-04-22T04:06:46Z Bike: yes.
2016-04-22T04:06:54Z Bike: the issue with an (array t) is that all that's in the contiguous memory locations is pointers to other memory locations, probably, so if you need to access those they would involve cache incoherence.
2016-04-22T04:06:57Z aeth: So I guess I should be saying, "Are generic arrays typically contiguous or is that only for upgradable ones?"
2016-04-22T04:07:06Z Bike: they're usually all contiguous.
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2016-04-22T04:08:15Z Bike: an upgraded array is going to store "actual data" in the contiguous memory. e.g., an (array (unsigned-byte 32)) is probably going to have the actual integers all in a row.
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2016-04-22T04:11:29Z aeth: When random access isn't important, are clever array data structures only clever in CL when it's with upgraded arrays?
2016-04-22T04:12:04Z aeth: Or is there a third reason to use arrays other than random access and upgraded arrays with contiguous memory?
2016-04-22T04:12:08Z Bike: random access is pretty much what arrays are for
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2016-04-22T04:13:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: upgraded array is just an array that only supports some kind of "immediate" or "primitive" type, like a float?
2016-04-22T04:13:28Z aeth: (upgraded-array-element-type 'fixnum) or (upgraded-array-element-type 'single-float) etc.
2016-04-22T04:13:47Z aeth: Yes, they only have one type, and you can find out if the implementation supports them with that function
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2016-04-22T04:14:45Z Bike: it's like this. when you grab the nth element of an array, the machine instructions are probably going to be (+ array-start n maybe-lisp-junk), to find the address, and then loading something from that address. to get the nth of a list, you load the address of the first cons's cdr, then use that to laod the address of the second cons's cdr, and so on n times.
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2016-04-22T04:16:56Z Bike: the latter is going to involve more uncacheable memory accesses in pretty much any situation, and memory is the major bottleneck of your computer, so it's probably going to be slower. most of the time that doesn't actually matter, but sometimes it does, and then you use arrays.
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2016-04-22T04:18:09Z Bike: am i making any sense here?
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2016-04-22T04:18:30Z aeth: yes
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2016-04-22T04:21:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: yes
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2016-04-22T04:23:49Z PuercoPop: why would loading a source file open more opportunities for parallel compilation than loading fasl files? https://github.com/qitab/bazelisp/commit/682937ff092137da5b11e07c6556dac80a035fd0
2016-04-22T04:23:50Z Bike: what an upgraded array does is change what's stored in memory. a usual lisp value is probably going to be a tagged pointer - a machine word where the lower few bits have some information on interpretation, and where, usually except for fixnums, the word is to be interpreted as an address. for an (array t) the memory will be a bunch of those. for an upgraded array you put something else in, like just an
2016-04-22T04:23:56Z Bike: integer, say, where the lower bits that would be tag can be number instead. that's all.
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2016-04-22T04:25:18Z Bike: not sure
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2016-04-22T04:28:58Z aeth: Would something like this be a decent way of avoiding the nthcdr penalty in lists (except on the creation of the data structure)?
2016-04-22T04:29:01Z aeth: (let* ((queue (list 1 2 3 4)) (last (nthcdr 3 queue))) (setf (cdr last) (cons 5 nil)) (setf last (cdr last)) (values queue last))
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2016-04-22T04:29:36Z aeth: So if you need to access some value, like the last element, you can just cache that value, and update that value... This would at least work for queues assuming you only add to the end, and not remove.
2016-04-22T04:30:08Z Bike: well, yes, but if you have a variable for every part of the list it's not much of a data structure, is it? :p
2016-04-22T04:30:33Z Bike: your basic idea is similar to something called a skip list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_list
2016-04-22T04:30:59Z aeth: yeah, which seems to work for enqueue, but obviously wouldn't work if you wanted to access *everything*
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2016-04-22T04:31:45Z Bike: no, it reduces access times.
2016-04-22T04:33:03Z Bike: e.g., if you had a list with several hundred elements, and had skips for 2^n, you could get the 373rd by going 256 -> 320 -> 352 -> 368 -> 372 -> 373, which is a good deal less than 373 iterations.
2016-04-22T04:33:18Z Bike: still slower than the addition, but hey.
2016-04-22T04:33:40Z Bike: plus every cons pretty much has to be an array of skips.
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2016-04-22T04:37:38Z aeth: I can think of one alternative, roughly-equivalent enqueue implementation which would be vector-push or vector-push-extend (the latter would be exactly equivalent afaik), but the disadvantage would be dequeue then afaik. For lists I could do something like this:
2016-04-22T04:37:42Z aeth: (let* ((queue (list 1 2 3 4 5)) (first (car queue))) (setf queue (cdr queue)) (values first queue))
2016-04-22T04:38:10Z aeth: Do CL programmers generally use mutable lists for queues or other things like CLOS?
2016-04-22T04:39:21Z aeth: I guess there would be advantages to a fixed-sized fixnum queue using vector-push as enqueue and storing the index for the next dequeue... for fixnums. Given my 1 2 3 4 5 example, of course.
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2016-04-22T04:39:50Z Bike: i don't remember the last time I used a CS 201 data structure in a program. i would probably use conses, though, just because thinking about it is boring.
2016-04-22T04:40:12Z loke: Bike: Red-black trees are useful though
2016-04-22T04:40:27Z Bike: so are queues! i just don't think about them
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2016-04-22T04:40:49Z loke: That said, there are plenty of broken implementations out there. Only one works, and that's the one I ported from a C reference implementation.
2016-04-22T04:40:54Z loke: (for CL that is)
2016-04-22T04:41:11Z Bike: programming is hard.
2016-04-22T04:41:11Z aeth: It looks like I actually do need to use queues in my Lisp game engine. Possibly quite a bit.
2016-04-22T04:42:29Z Bike: here is the usual recommendation: make everything you do on queues go through some api (i.e. call "queue-push" instead of cl:push, or whatever) and then when you inevitably need to change the backend to use the quantum demyelinated zipper data structure (von Kersken, 2023) it's not so hard to switch
2016-04-22T04:42:47Z aeth: good point
2016-04-22T04:43:09Z aeth: I'll just use lists until I hit a wall, since I won't be writing anything even approaching the limitations of current hardware anytime soon.
2016-04-22T04:43:14Z rme: Bike: hah
2016-04-22T04:43:19Z loke: Bike: That's what I did. Hence: https://github.com/lokedhs/containers
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2016-04-22T04:43:49Z Bike: i mean, yeah, i said "usual advice" because it's what everyone does. because it's a good idea
2016-04-22T04:44:13Z Bike: i said recommendation, not advice, didn't i. terrible.
2016-04-22T04:44:34Z Bike: that's cool though. all these check-types
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2016-04-22T04:45:14Z loke: Public API's should have check-type, IMHO
2016-04-22T04:45:42Z aeth: Yes, almost always.
2016-04-22T04:47:25Z Zhivago: Except that the right interface is probably more abstract than a queue, for your use-case.
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2016-04-22T06:31:51Z knobo1: Could I make asdf check if there is a file-package.lisp for every :component (:file "file"), and compile file-package.lisp before file.lisp if it exists?
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2016-04-22T07:09:18Z moore33: aeth: I've started using serapeum queues. These are lists, more or less.
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2016-04-22T08:00:37Z scymtym: PuercoPop: i think the reasoning in the bazel article goes like this: 1. if you LOAD dependencies before COMPILE-ing files, you can compile all files immediately and in parallel without waiting for any compilation results. 2. LOAD with SBCL's default evaluation strategy (always compile) would make this pointless, thus "fasteval". "fasteval" is a very fast interpreter that does almost nothing (not even macroexpansion) eagerly, making
2016-04-22T08:00:37Z scymtym: LOADing some code a cheap operation
2016-04-22T08:01:27Z pi_: How do you add objects to lisp
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2016-04-22T08:08:41Z PuercoPop: scymtym: thanks for the explanation
2016-04-22T08:09:51Z scymtym: PuercoPop: no problem. that's just how i think it works, though
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2016-04-22T09:50:47Z knobo1: Any good idea on how to handle renaming a file to a new directory, and automatically creating a new name if the file already exists?
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2016-04-22T09:52:31Z loke: knobo1: That can't be done atomically.
2016-04-22T09:52:47Z knobo1: loke: that means there is no library for that.
2016-04-22T09:53:01Z loke: knobo: well, there are functions in uiop that does it.
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2016-04-22T09:53:20Z loke: But you have to do it in two phases: First rename, and if it fails, pick a new name and rename to.
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2016-04-22T11:32:20Z jackdaniel: how to painlessly convert a string with windows newline (with crlf) to unix?
2016-04-22T11:32:39Z jackdaniel: I mean – in CL, I know how to change buffer encoding in emacs :)
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2016-04-22T11:37:59Z John[Lisbeth]: can you do bitwise operations like bitwise exclusive or?
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2016-04-22T11:38:58Z jackdaniel: bit-xor
2016-04-22T11:40:14Z John[Lisbeth]: ty
2016-04-22T11:40:18Z knobo1: When I create a file with with-open-file, how do I make it readable by everyone?
2016-04-22T11:41:10Z jackdaniel: knobo1: osicat:file-permissions
2016-04-22T11:41:58Z knobo1: So I can not do it by default during file creation?
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2016-04-22T11:43:32Z jackdaniel: well, fwiw with-open-file gives by default permissions 655
2016-04-22T11:43:39Z jackdaniel: so it should be readable by anyone
2016-04-22T11:43:48Z jackdaniel: 644°
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2016-04-22T11:44:59Z knobo1: it it probably uses umask
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2016-04-22T13:18:03Z DeadTrickster_: looks like quickdocs.org can't pickup readme changes
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2016-04-22T13:57:34Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/posts/New-website-look.html :)
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2016-04-22T14:25:29Z Xach: hmm
2016-04-22T14:25:34Z Xach gets 500s from cloudfront for a little while
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2016-04-22T14:28:35Z eschulte: is there a way to defmethod on multiple classes, or do I need to have them all inherit from a similar super-class?
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2016-04-22T14:36:34Z Xach: eschulte: the latter. that is what mixins are sometimes used for...
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2016-04-22T14:38:17Z mood: eschulte: You could also define a method for each class that in turn calls a separate function, but that's usually not a nice solution
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2016-04-22T14:39:34Z jackdaniel: o
2016-04-22T14:40:07Z jackdaniel: Xach: I meant adding also the blogpost from my site to the planet lisp (it's lisp related)
2016-04-22T14:40:21Z Xach: jackdaniel: I don't add individual posts. I add feeds.
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2016-04-22T14:41:05Z Xach: Is there a feed for your site?
2016-04-22T14:41:11Z jackdaniel: hm, OK, you've mentioned some kind of filtering option, probably I have misunderstood something
2016-04-22T14:41:14Z jackdaniel: http://turtleware.eu/rss.xml
2016-04-22T14:41:16Z jackdaniel: yes
2016-04-22T14:41:53Z jackdaniel: oh, I haven't linked it on the first e-mail. Sorry
2016-04-22T14:42:23Z Xach: jackdaniel: ok. i see you have <category> tags. that is what i can use for filtering, if necessary.
2016-04-22T14:42:36Z Xach: jackdaniel: do you expect to write only about lisp? or will it be a mix?
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2016-04-22T14:44:07Z jackdaniel: rather a mix, I'll add a tag lisp
2016-04-22T14:44:15Z Xach: ok
2016-04-22T14:44:25Z Xach: let me know when it is tagged
2016-04-22T14:46:13Z jackdaniel: Xach: done
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2016-04-22T14:49:53Z Xach: welcome...to planet lisp!
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2016-04-22T14:50:27Z jackdaniel: thanks :-)
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2016-04-22T15:01:45Z ssice: hi, I got an issue with "times" (runtime/compile-time). I want to define a package, unless it has been previously defined
2016-04-22T15:02:02Z ssice: i.e., (unless (find-package :frob) (defpackage :frob #|blah|#))
2016-04-22T15:02:42Z ssice: but if on the next line I say (in-package :frob) the compiler signals there is no :frob package
2016-04-22T15:03:04Z ssice: and I wonder why doesn't the unless "happen" before the in-package declaration
2016-04-22T15:03:34Z ssice: and I'm refering to doing this in Common Lisp; I'm currently using SBCL, but I hope this is not implementation-dependant
2016-04-22T15:03:40Z ssice: anyone got an idea?
2016-04-22T15:05:51Z jackdaniel: uiop has a function ensure-package
2016-04-22T15:06:50Z jackdaniel: obviously it does whatever it does (no documentation of it), but name suggest, that it may do exactly that
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2016-04-22T15:11:17Z Bike: ssice: in-package has compile time side effects. however, when the file compiler sees "unless", it lets off the whole form until load time, i.e. does not execute the defpackage at compile time. what you need to do is put the unless form in an eval-when.
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2016-04-22T15:11:57Z Bike: jackdaniel: ensure-* usually means it's the function version of def*. like ensure-class and defclass. it's not directly related to compilation.
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2016-04-22T15:12:22Z ssice: aha, I'm seeing that if I macroexpand the in-package form it expands to an eval-when with an implementation-defined setq *package*
2016-04-22T15:12:42Z Bike: yes.
2016-04-22T15:13:04Z ssice: so it makes sense that unless, without an eval-when will not get picked by the compiler sufficiently in time
2016-04-22T15:13:27Z ssice: thank you, I liked the insight
2016-04-22T15:14:12Z jackdaniel: OK
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2016-04-22T17:28:06Z zdm: I'm interested in Lisp programmers flow: In the case of emacs with slime, are you mostly in the repl or are you mainly in a buffer and compiling?
2016-04-22T17:28:33Z warweasle: zdm: For me? Both.
2016-04-22T17:29:07Z warweasle: zdm: I made some emacs functions called slime-dump-last-expression, and slime-dump-last-result for putting things in files.
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2016-04-22T17:29:24Z zdm: Oh, that would be useful
2016-04-22T17:29:42Z zdm: So, would you say your programming interaction is more interactive compared to a C programmers?
2016-04-22T17:30:36Z warweasle: zdm: Definitely. Last night I had an SDL window open and modified my rich text code while it was being used so I could see the results.
2016-04-22T17:31:08Z zdm: SDL?
2016-04-22T17:31:16Z warweasle: zdm: I found out OpenGL Pixel-buffers can only pull or push pixels to textures, not both. :(
2016-04-22T17:31:40Z zdm: Oh, heh. I know nothing about OpenGL and graphics in general.
2016-04-22T17:31:46Z warweasle: zdm: A cross platform library for windowing, sound, controlers, input, etc. Mostly for games.
2016-04-22T17:32:18Z zdm: It seems you would have more fun developing games with Lisp, by your description.
2016-04-22T17:32:21Z warweasle: zdm: It's very motiving.
2016-04-22T17:32:41Z zdm: Reason I ask is i just got done watching Brett Victor’s, Inventing on Principle Talk
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2016-04-22T17:33:00Z zdm: He showed some really interesting interaction stuff, impressive
2016-04-22T17:33:52Z warweasle: zdm: Maybe I should record one of my dev sessions so people see how I use it.
2016-04-22T17:34:21Z zdm: I would be interested
2016-04-22T17:34:40Z zdm: the talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUv66718DII or https://vimeo.com/36579366
2016-04-22T17:35:17Z warweasle: zdm: There is an old video where they make a small ray tracer and explain what they are doing.
2016-04-22T17:36:09Z warweasle: That's where I learned a lot.
2016-04-22T17:36:14Z warweasle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oMRw04W3E
2016-04-22T17:37:12Z fouric: zdm! (pardon my "!" nick complete char) When I'm working on my game or graphics editor, I usually spend time writing code in the buffer, and use the REPL for testing out individual functions
2016-04-22T17:37:45Z fouric: When I was working on my utilities to process my bank statements, though, I spent my time mainly in the REPL, and moved stuff to a file after it worked
2016-04-22T17:39:00Z warweasle: fouric: That's what I generally do. Question: Is there a slime function to eval in a buffer and put the result after it?
2016-04-22T17:39:21Z warweasle: I know we can macroexpand in place.
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2016-04-22T17:42:17Z warweasle: slime-eval-print-last-expression
2016-04-22T17:42:32Z warweasle: It rolls of the tongue
2016-04-22T17:42:41Z jsgrant: zdm: Probably 75% normal lisp-file evaling from buffer, 15% Scratch Buffer, 15% repl for me.
2016-04-22T17:45:00Z jsgrant: warweasle: Are you the "clinch" guy, can't remember.
2016-04-22T17:45:02Z jsgrant: ?*
2016-04-22T17:45:09Z warweasle: jsgrant: Yes.
2016-04-22T17:45:33Z jsgrant: Ah, neat. Play around with it recently, or on hold for now?
2016-04-22T17:45:58Z fouric: warweasle! So C-c C-p (slime-pprint-eval-last-expression) will put the result in a new buffer...
2016-04-22T17:45:59Z warweasle: jsgrant: On it almost every night. Have you seen my recent video where I load images, meshes and animations?
2016-04-22T17:46:11Z zdm: jsgrant: would you rather stay in the repl, as in having it 75% of the time?
2016-04-22T17:46:13Z fouric: But that isn't exactly what you want, hang on...
2016-04-22T17:46:27Z warweasle: fouric: The print variant isn't keymapped, oddly.
2016-04-22T17:46:34Z jsgrant: warweasle: Link? I need to subscribe, if you are uploading regurarly.
2016-04-22T17:46:51Z warweasle: jsgrant: https://www.youtube.com/user/WarWeasle1/videos
2016-04-22T17:47:16Z fouric: warweasle! Give me a few minutes to get back to a machine with Emacs and I can probably find something better
2016-04-22T17:47:26Z warweasle: jsgrant: I'm trying to get another one up but I keep wanting to add more features. I haven't shown how to do rich text or vector graphics yet.
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2016-04-22T17:47:59Z jsgrant: warweasle: Oh, very cool; Will be sure to subscribe this time around. Must not of noticed all the videos, just remember the gamejam one.
2016-04-22T17:48:45Z jsgrant: zdm: In a buffer connected via swank, it covers most of the territory a repl does anyways; And what doesnt', I have a buffer in-frame regardless. :6p
2016-04-22T17:48:47Z warweasle: jsgrant: I'm not good about posting, but I just reinstalled Mint so I can consistently make screen recordings. That used to be...difficult.
2016-04-22T17:49:42Z warweasle: jsgrant: It's odd, clinch has a lot of stuff in it, but I'm so used to it I don't think to put them into a video.
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2016-04-22T17:50:47Z warweasle needs to finish his GUI, 3D animation and shader auto-update stuff.
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2016-04-22T17:58:14Z fouric: warweasle! Try C-u C-x C-e
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2016-04-22T17:59:01Z fouric: Re SLIME: C-u <slime eval command> should spit the results of whatever you're executing into the current buffer (according to the manual, at least)
2016-04-22T18:02:03Z fouric: (I know that it at *least* works for that specific command)
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2016-04-22T18:08:30Z warweasle: forgot: It works, but it prints it exactly where my cursor is.
2016-04-22T18:08:49Z warweasle: fouric: I like this better because it's almost like C-c C-p : (eval-after-load "slime" '(progn (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "C-c p") 'slime-eval-print-last-expression)))
2016-04-22T18:09:09Z warweasle is going to get a lot more done now.
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2016-04-22T18:17:43Z fouric: Interesting...
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2016-04-22T19:00:30Z gargaml: hi
2016-04-22T19:00:48Z gargaml: I can't clone the repository of alexandria on common-lisp.net
2016-04-22T19:00:57Z gargaml: is it temporary?
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2016-04-22T19:07:35Z mordocai: gargaml: I can clone it. Are you doing git clone https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/alexandria/alexandria.git ?
2016-04-22T19:08:20Z gargaml: oh I used this url git://common-lisp.net/projects/alexandria/alexandria.git
2016-04-22T19:08:31Z gargaml: I found it there https://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/
2016-04-22T19:09:01Z gargaml: it works with the subdomain gitlab
2016-04-22T19:09:04Z gargaml: thank you :-)
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2016-04-22T19:09:57Z gargaml: if someone has write access on the alexandria page :)
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2016-04-22T19:24:36Z mordocai: Yeah, they switched to gitlab a while ago but a lot of links are still wrong
2016-04-22T19:26:13Z gargaml: ok
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2016-04-22T20:11:46Z andrei-n: I read that some lisp dialects (like racket) don't have loops. So, are loops deprecated in lisp in general (common lisp and so on)?
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2016-04-22T20:13:54Z Xach: andrei-n: not in general.
2016-04-22T20:14:36Z JuanDaugherty: it's just a different model of comp
2016-04-22T20:14:59Z JuanDaugherty: and relation of text to execution
2016-04-22T20:15:45Z JuanDaugherty: obviously iteration is fundamental
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2016-04-22T20:16:16Z PuercoPop: andrei-n: (and racket certainly has loops as macros, https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html)
2016-04-22T20:16:42Z andrei-n: But don't programmers retain habits when passing from one dialect to another? So if they never used loops in one dialect they have no reason to use them in another...
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2016-04-22T20:17:01Z JuanDaugherty: scheme and cl you mean?
2016-04-22T20:17:09Z JuanDaugherty: they're fairly segregated
2016-04-22T20:17:19Z JuanDaugherty: although there are lisp communalists
2016-04-22T20:18:41Z JuanDaugherty: racket dominates in #scheme like sbcl does here
2016-04-22T20:19:43Z andrei-n: I was looking at this page http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp
2016-04-22T20:20:12Z andrei-n: and it is said that you have to use recursion instead of loops in racket..
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2016-04-22T20:21:56Z prxq: andrei-n: that's possible, they are a little like that
2016-04-22T20:23:18Z Xach: andrei-n: It is not a good idea to carelessly retain habits of one environment in another environment.
2016-04-22T20:23:35Z Xach: andrei-n: some habits are good to retain, others are bad. it takes experience to know which is which.
2016-04-22T20:27:08Z JuanDaugherty: andrei-n, and my initial response was in re lisps in relation to non-lisps
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2016-04-22T20:30:10Z andrei-n: And what about lisp then?
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2016-04-22T20:32:02Z prxq: andrei-n: common lisp has a few looping constructs.
2016-04-22T20:32:33Z prxq: andrei-n: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/loop-for-black-belts.html
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2016-04-22T21:34:40Z aeth: andrei-n: Common Lisp has a lot of ways to do most things. For loops there's the loop macro and the family of do macros (do, do*, dolist, dotimes, etc.). There's also the higher order functions like map or reduce, which can often be equivalent to what you're trying to do.
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2016-04-22T21:35:25Z aeth: You can also use tail recursion like in Scheme, but you shouldn't because implementations are not required to optimize tail recursion.
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2016-04-22T21:39:26Z andrei-n: I've read about tail recursion optimisation in Common Lisp, and it seems the implementations try to do it as much as possible, even the indirect recursion...
2016-04-22T21:40:03Z aeth: Btw, afaik, Schemes are required to have do. Including Racket. https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html?q=do#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fmore-scheme..rkt%29._do%29%29
2016-04-22T21:40:24Z aeth: So Hyperpolyglot is wrong there. Even if there's no loop equivalent in a given Scheme, there's always do if they follow the standard afaik.
2016-04-22T21:41:14Z aeth: People who code in both Common Lisp and Scheme probably use do a lot.
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2016-04-22T21:44:29Z aeth: andrei-n: You can't rely on tail recursion in portable Common Lisp. You can probably rely on it in certain circumstances. And if you need tail recursion portably for something, a trampoline is trivial to write. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tail_call#Through_trampolining
2016-04-22T21:44:59Z aeth: I'm currently using a trampoline in my Scheme-in-CL attempt.
2016-04-22T21:45:00Z fouric: aeth! Would you happen to know *which* implementations support tail recursion?
2016-04-22T21:45:11Z fouric: (sorry, "!" as nick complete char)
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2016-04-22T21:46:32Z aeth: fouric: for some reason my client actually recognizes that, I thought it only recognized ":" because it doesn't recognize ","
2016-04-22T21:46:35Z aeth: Strange
2016-04-22T21:46:43Z aeth: I have never seen that before
2016-04-22T21:47:31Z aeth: fouric: sorry, cliki doesn't have any information (and the article seems out of date) and that would probably be where to find it if such a list existed. http://www.cliki.net/tail%20recursion
2016-04-22T21:48:06Z aeth: fouric: afaik it's just ABCL because of the JVM
2016-04-22T21:48:12Z aeth: (that doesn't, I mean)
2016-04-22T21:49:18Z fouric: The JVM doesn't support tail recursion?
2016-04-22T21:49:28Z fouric: (or the design of it just makes it much harder?)
2016-04-22T21:49:28Z aeth: Apparently not.
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2016-04-22T21:52:12Z aeth: But the ones that do use tail recursion don't *always* use it. So you're going to have a hard time if you rely on it afaik.
2016-04-22T21:52:59Z brpocock: Ref Java/ABCL: The original excuse was, that editing the stack (replacing a stack frame) could have hurt some security methods or something. (Punning packages, perhaps?) But the JVM doesn't have a way to do it, unless it's been added rather recently. Clojure seems to fake it somehow, most of the time, though, so that info may be dated. (My Java guts knowledge is circa 1.5/1.6 era)
2016-04-22T21:55:40Z andrei-n: What I was saying about tail call optimisation was from this article, which is 5 years old. At that time even gnu cl could do it in some cases.
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2016-04-22T21:55:48Z andrei-n: http://0branch.com/notes/tco-cl.html#sec-2-7
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2016-04-22T21:59:15Z brpocock: n/m — Clojure (recur) is not actually a recursion but a loop; ref https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/clojure/4bSdsbperNE/tXdcmbiv4g0J
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2016-04-22T22:01:01Z jasom: fouric: note that many implementations do not do tail-call elimination on default optimization settings
2016-04-22T22:02:27Z fouric: Right, I would have to explicitly enable it...
2016-04-22T22:02:33Z fouric goes to try out tail-recursion in CLISP
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2016-04-22T22:04:35Z fouric: CLISP doesn't support it?
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2016-04-22T22:07:52Z fouric: ...and SBCL does it at the default debug level.
2016-04-22T22:07:55Z fouric: Interesting.
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2016-04-22T22:11:06Z Bike: i think if you increase the debug level it doesn't (to make the stack traces easier to understand)
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2016-04-22T22:13:19Z phoe_krk: I want to ITERATE with a variable being the MAPLIST style; I mean, if the initial list is (1 2 3 4), I want the variable to be (1 2 3 4), then (2 3 4), then (3 4), then (4). How should I achieve that?
2016-04-22T22:13:44Z phoe_krk: Putting it another way, by #'cdr.
2016-04-22T22:14:17Z phoe_krk: ...iterate *on*. Sigh.
2016-04-22T22:14:21Z phoe_krk: Thanks.
2016-04-22T22:14:22Z Bike: a brief look at the manual suggests "for var on list" instead of "for var in list", same as loop.
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2016-04-22T22:15:30Z phoe_krk: Yes, I missed that one.
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2016-04-22T22:40:46Z jasom: fouric: clisp does if you compile the function with the right optimization level
2016-04-22T22:41:00Z jasom: fouric: clisp won't compile a defun you type in at the REPL
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2016-04-22T23:01:54Z fouric: jasom! Ah, that makes sense.
2016-04-22T23:01:58Z fouric: Well, sort of.
2016-04-22T23:02:08Z fouric: No, it does
2016-04-22T23:02:22Z fouric: So functions aren't automatically compiled if created in the CLISP REPL?
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2016-04-22T23:02:32Z fouric: (I assume that I can call `compile-function` to get the thing that I want)
2016-04-22T23:03:01Z Bike: just compile, actually. like (compile function-name).
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2016-04-22T23:12:35Z jasom: fouric: right; asdf takes care of compilation and loading for you as well.
2016-04-22T23:13:04Z jasom: fouric: cmucl derivitives are unusual for their policy of nearly always preferring compilation to interpreting
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2016-04-22T23:34:51Z jsgrant:   warweasle Oh wow, weird. I was just about to try to send you a bot reminder message.
2016-04-22T23:35:05Z warweasle: jsgrant: What's that?
2016-04-22T23:35:39Z jsgrant: Just got to seeing some vids, yeah, pretty cool regarding Clinch. Was just about to ask if you do any "livecode" streams or similar.
2016-04-22T23:36:05Z jsgrant: Game-related stuff, is the only place that topic doesn't seem kinda boring to me.
2016-04-22T23:36:45Z warweasle: jsgrant: I can do some. I'm doing the lisp game jam in exactly a week.
2016-04-22T23:37:20Z warweasle: jsgrant: What would you like to see?
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2016-04-22T23:40:08Z jsgrant: warweasle: Neat, publicize it in here or lispgames if you do end up; No pressure or anything, but it seems to be aprox territory of what a lot of your vids seem to end up. If you're doing a gamejam though, it'd be neat to see maybe a timelapse vid of the proccess of/on it.
2016-04-22T23:40:48Z jsgrant added yous Clinch 0.6 overview, to my "watch it later" list regardless though. :^)
2016-04-22T23:41:04Z warweasle: jsgrant: I need to do the other half of that.
2016-04-22T23:41:52Z warweasle: jsgrant: I have to wait until after my son is sleeping though. It's hard to concentrate or talk when he realizes I'm doing something without him.
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2016-04-22T23:42:34Z jsgrant: warweasle: ++ Np at all, kid always takes priority.
2016-04-22T23:43:40Z jsgrant is probably trying to go to bed in 3 or 4 hours anyways, tonight; Have absurd amount of items in my 'todo.org list for tomorrow.
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2016-04-23T00:13:16Z ukari: is there a function like pwd in hyperspec?(I use ecl )
2016-04-23T00:13:29Z fiddlerwoaroof: Has any research been done on the performance of ordered hashtables vs. unordered hashtables?
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2016-04-23T00:35:11Z fiddlerwoaroof: ukari: For lisp the value *default-pathname-defaults* is generally what is considered the "working directory", but it doesn't necessarily match the os's idea of the present working directory.
2016-04-23T00:37:28Z fiddlerwoaroof: For the os's working directory, I think you have to use something like uiop:getcwd
2016-04-23T00:37:43Z fiddlerwoaroof: In the uiop package.
2016-04-23T00:37:57Z aeth: Always use uiop for pathname stuff.
2016-04-23T00:38:03Z fiddlerwoaroof: oops, uiop/os:getcwd
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2016-04-23T00:59:59Z PuercoPop: ukari: although uiop:getcwd has you covered, if one evaluates (apropos "cwd") in the ECL REPL, one finds that ECL provides the getcwd as part of the ext package. (ext:getcwd) works on ECL
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2016-04-23T01:04:13Z ukari: thanks, *default-pathname-defaults* and (ext:getcwd) works
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2016-04-23T01:11:09Z PuercoPop: minion: memo for ukari: Keep in mind that the initial-value for *default-pathname-defaults* is implementation dependent. And that it doesn't track the current working directory if it changes in implementations that initialize to it.
2016-04-23T01:11:10Z minion: Remembered. I'll tell ukari when he/she/it next speaks.
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2016-04-23T01:49:10Z fiddlerwoaroof: PuercoPop, ukari: I'd think that uiop/os:getcwd is generally better because it won't tie your code to ECL.
2016-04-23T01:49:23Z fiddlerwoaroof: But, whatever works.
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2016-04-23T02:18:45Z fouric: Question: is there any way that I can make C-c C-k aware of ASDF systems?
2016-04-23T02:19:05Z fouric: As it is, it just fails because it doesn't know that I have my current file in a system
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2016-04-23T02:42:23Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VQhqXDMW/
2016-04-23T02:42:49Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: Can someone help me determine why lpad is not producing the correct output?
2016-04-23T02:43:27Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: I thought I was doing it right and it seems to flow correctly in my head
2016-04-23T02:43:33Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: But not when applied
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2016-04-23T02:48:07Z Bike: looks like it's for #scheme. and you need to explain what output you were expecting and what o utput you're actually getting.
2016-04-23T02:48:28Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: I apologize >.<
2016-04-23T02:48:38Z Bike: no big deal
2016-04-23T02:48:40Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: I already figured out what was wrong too
2016-04-23T02:48:57Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: I was subtracting from a character and not a number
2016-04-23T02:49:01Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: pad and not num
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2016-04-23T02:54:07Z bullets: that's an ugly part of making code
2016-04-23T02:54:32Z bullets: having a bug so tricky that you end up asking for help...right before finding it youself :P
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2016-04-23T02:55:18Z bullets: I have a question. List are sequences?
2016-04-23T02:55:26Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: I am trying to learn a lisp thing
2016-04-23T02:55:30Z Bike: lists are sequences, yes.
2016-04-23T02:55:32Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: But it's kinda hard
2016-04-23T02:55:47Z dwynwen_ddlleyw: The way it's written makes it rather painful to read
2016-04-23T02:56:00Z bullets: Bike: so every function that operates on a sequence operates on a list?
2016-04-23T02:56:08Z Bike: yes.
2016-04-23T02:56:10Z bullets: thanks!
2016-04-23T02:56:16Z Bike: it does mean proper lists, though, so make sure you're clear on that.
2016-04-23T02:58:49Z warweasle: Ok, done doing work. Now for a fun question: Can I staticly link libraries into the ecl executable?
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2016-04-23T03:05:30Z PuercoPop: fiddlerwoaroof: my initial intention was not to recommend ext:getwd over uiop, but to show how apropos could have helped them find out about the function he is looking for.
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2016-04-23T03:39:38Z bullets: how can I use and on a list?
2016-04-23T03:39:49Z Bike: clhs every
2016-04-23T03:39:49Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2016-04-23T03:39:56Z bullets: thanks
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2016-04-23T03:46:16Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-04-23T03:46:32Z bullets: evenin
2016-04-23T03:46:53Z bullets: hey guys, is it too ugly if i have (let .. (do .. (let ...))) ?
2016-04-23T03:47:03Z bullets: should I be ashamed for doing that?
2016-04-23T03:48:45Z rme_: You can put all the let-bindings in the do, if you want.
2016-04-23T03:49:20Z beach: bullets: Or you can use LOOP which is way more readable than DO.
2016-04-23T03:50:13Z bullets: yeah... still gotta learn that spooky loop macro
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2016-04-23T04:01:27Z beach: This is a good time to start then, since you need that kind of structure.
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2016-04-23T04:16:24Z aeth: bullets: If do can't simplify that, a do* should be able to.
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2016-04-23T04:20:45Z bullets: whew, my code works, but it shows my noobness
2016-04-23T04:20:51Z bullets: :`
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2016-04-23T04:30:35Z jack_rip_vim: hi beach
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2016-04-23T04:31:18Z beach: jack_rip_vim: Making progress with Lisp?
2016-04-23T04:32:02Z jack_rip_vim: no, just prepare to install Archlinux
2016-04-23T04:33:12Z jack_rip_vim: guess I will move cl to Archlinux
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2016-04-23T04:36:24Z jack_rip_vim: beach, will you use lisp to make a website?
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2016-04-23T04:44:30Z beach: jack_rip_vim: I have no such plans at this moment, no.
2016-04-23T04:45:31Z jack_rip_vim: beach: no, i mean, have you been use it to make this things?
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2016-04-23T04:46:16Z beach: jack_rip_vim: I have, yes, in the past.  But I am not a good authority for those things.  Check with Shinmera if you need information about that.
2016-04-23T04:47:34Z jack_rip_vim: beach: ok, thanks. just someone said I should try it. it will be fun.
2016-04-23T04:47:42Z menwithHill: When creating a language, you need fundamental elements such as tokens, a syntax, and a way to encapsulate and label entities you make with the first two.  What is the technical name of the third item, the abstraction-making mechanism?
2016-04-23T04:48:22Z beach: menwithHill: Are you referring to "semantics" maybe?
2016-04-23T04:48:37Z menwithHill: beach: well, that's the tokens
2016-04-23T04:48:42Z beach: Not at all.
2016-04-23T04:48:59Z jack_rip_vim: :D
2016-04-23T04:49:03Z beach: Besides there are several abstraction mechanisms.
2016-04-23T04:49:16Z beach: Control abstraction, data abstraction, syntactic abstraction.
2016-04-23T04:49:58Z menwithHill: in language description terms, you'd have: semantics, syntax, ... and what's the third one?  The one i described as the ability of a language to make abstractions.
2016-04-23T04:50:25Z menwithHill: or encapsulations of the first two
2016-04-23T04:50:33Z Bike: i don't know what you mean by "make abstractions", and i don't think all programming languages have that. brainfuck, e.g.
2016-04-23T04:51:15Z menwithHill: the ability to take a procedure and slap a label on it, and then be able to call it by the label.
2016-04-23T04:51:35Z menwithHill: or to use the label as though it were a primitive of the language
2016-04-23T04:51:39Z Bike: ok, right. you can't always do that.
2016-04-23T04:51:41Z beach: menwithHill: That is but one of the three abstraction mechanisms I mentioned.
2016-04-23T04:51:59Z Bike: that's kind of under "structured programming", i think, but might not have a particular name.
2016-04-23T04:52:10Z menwithHill: beach: but if it is not called a semantic, nor a syntax, what is the name of that feature of languages?
2016-04-23T04:52:27Z beach: "abstraction" would be my guess.
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2016-04-23T04:52:39Z Bike: i'd say it's part of the semantics
2016-04-23T04:52:45Z menwithHill: label reloading?
2016-04-23T04:53:14Z menwithHill: seems to be an aspect of the semantics
2016-04-23T04:53:15Z beach: menwithHill: But your question is largely outside the scope of this channel, so you can not expect people here to be language theoreticians.
2016-04-23T04:53:15Z Bike: maybe you could throw it in pragmatics, heh
2016-04-23T04:53:49Z menwithHill: beach: no problem
2016-04-23T04:54:56Z menwithHill: Lisp is the redefiner par excellence, no?
2016-04-23T04:55:23Z Bike: it is pretty common to do so, at least.
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2016-04-23T04:58:27Z beach: menwithHill: You seem to have questions on your mind that are a bit unusual for this channel.
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2016-04-23T05:00:22Z beach: menwithHill: The Common Lisp standard does not allow for a user to redefine the standard elements any more than other languages do, and it is probably as common for a programmer of some other language to redefine his or her own constructs as it is for a Common Lisp programmer.
2016-04-23T05:00:53Z Bike: eh, not so often in the same image, though.
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2016-04-23T05:01:43Z jack_rip_vim: use lisp to write a website, just use it to return some massage
2016-04-23T05:01:56Z jack_rip_vim: no other things
2016-04-23T05:02:10Z beach: Bike: Right.  Most languages are not dynamic, so do not allow for such redefinitions.
2016-04-23T05:02:36Z menwithHill: beach: i'm not making a criticism of Lisp, i'm only trying to find out what is the name of a higher order feature of Lisp, the name of a feature of languages in general that is also found in Lisp.
2016-04-23T05:03:01Z Bike: i do not think there is a name for being able to name things
2016-04-23T05:03:46Z beach: I tend to agree with Bike.  Different languages have different names for their language-specific abstraction mechanisms.
2016-04-23T05:04:04Z menwithHill: no worries; i'll try other sources
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2016-04-23T05:11:41Z aeth: menwithHill: do you mean name binding? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_binding
2016-04-23T05:12:19Z menwithHill: aeth: lemme see
2016-04-23T05:13:47Z aeth: In the HyperSpec, it's just "binding". http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_b.htm#binding
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2016-04-23T05:18:08Z aeth: It is similarly just "binding" in r7rs Scheme, if you want to compare the CLHS with a major living language that CL is very close to. (Sometimes the terminology differs and sometimes people in the CL world use the Scheme terminology.)
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2016-04-23T05:18:53Z adjivas: Hello! Anybody can recommand to me a program to generate documentation from .lisp?
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2016-04-23T05:20:05Z beach: It is usually a bad idea to attempt to generate documentation from source code.  The result is often a collection of documentation strings without any global description of concepts and terminology.
2016-04-23T05:21:02Z aeth: It's possible to do it in CL, though, because I see those pages all the time. 90% of the time, though, I wind up just looking at the source instead, even when I start with this generated documentation.
2016-04-23T05:21:11Z adjivas: beach: It's depend of the tool generator, by example rustdoc with the rust language good implementes it
2016-04-23T05:21:37Z menwithHill: Suppose I make a procedure that adds integers, replaces strings, binds code/data to a name, etc.; then I make a syntax that expresses how such kind of objects are made.  This latter feature of Lisp is whose name I'm looking for.
2016-04-23T05:22:34Z beach: menwithHill: It is called a macro.
2016-04-23T05:22:46Z aeth: adjivas: The only library with excellent documentation whose documentation I have happened to read (maybe I am simply unaware of some for libraries that I use) is cl-ppcre.
2016-04-23T05:22:55Z aeth: You probably want to copy however this documentation was generated. http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/
2016-04-23T05:23:57Z adjivas: aeth and everybody: Thank you for your answers and recommendations, I will read your link
2016-04-23T05:24:10Z menwithHill: beach: "macroing facilities"?
2016-04-23T05:24:55Z beach: No.
2016-04-23T05:24:59Z aeth: adjivas: from http://weitz.de/lisp.html it looks like he uses http://weitz.de/documentation-template/
2016-04-23T05:25:41Z menwithHill: function abstraction?
2016-04-23T05:25:43Z aeth: There are probably at least 2 other libraries that do this.
2016-04-23T05:26:10Z beach: menwithHill: No, if you are making syntax, it is a macro.
2016-04-23T05:26:52Z menwithHill: ok
2016-04-23T05:26:54Z beach: menwithHill: "functional abstraction" is when you bundle operations into a function.  But functional abstraction does not allow you to alter the syntax.
2016-04-23T05:27:44Z beach: menwithHill: With functional abstraction, the syntax remains (<function-name> <arg1> <arg2> ... <argn>)
2016-04-23T05:28:02Z menwithHill: ok
2016-04-23T05:28:10Z beach: menwithHill: And with functional abstraction, each argument is evaluated before the function is applied.
2016-04-23T05:29:09Z menwithHill: what about when you make a DSL, is it possible to make a syntax for it?
2016-04-23T05:29:16Z beach: menwithHill: If you want to change the syntax, you need to use macros.  Then you can accomplish things like (loop with x = 10 for y from x to z when (f y a) do (bla y))
2016-04-23T05:30:08Z beach: menwithHill: A large part of making a DSL in Common Lisp is using macros to accomplish a particular syntax.  LOOP is an example of a DSL embedded in Common Lisp.
2016-04-23T05:31:04Z menwithHill: cool
2016-04-23T05:32:39Z beach: menwithHill: If you are interested in that kind of stuff, I recommend "On Lisp" by Paul Graham.  I believe it is available online for free as a PDF.
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2016-04-23T05:32:56Z beach: The entire book is dedicated to Common Lisp macrology.
2016-04-23T05:33:11Z menwithHill: beach: great.  thanks
2016-04-23T05:33:24Z beach: Anytime.
2016-04-23T05:33:28Z ukari: let over lambda is also a good book about macro
2016-04-23T05:33:29Z minion: ukari, memo from PuercoPop: Keep in mind that the initial-value for *default-pathname-defaults* is implementation dependent. And that it doesn't track the current working directory if it changes in implementations that initialize to it.
2016-04-23T05:34:13Z menwithHill: i thought it might be a concept in the lambda calculus
2016-04-23T05:34:47Z Bike: lambda calculus has bindings and it has functions, but it doesn't have syntax changes.
2016-04-23T05:34:55Z aries_liuxueyang: Anyone use lispbuilder-sdl on Mac OS X?
2016-04-23T05:35:12Z menwithHill: Bike: ok
2016-04-23T05:35:57Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: Yes I have, what want you to know?
2016-04-23T05:37:17Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: Please take a look at a question I ask, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/36806167/install-lispbuilder-sdl-on-mac-os-x , Thanks you :-)
2016-04-23T05:38:08Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: I will read/check it :-)
2016-04-23T05:38:19Z menwithHill: ok.  thanks for clues, guys.
2016-04-23T05:38:43Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: thanks for your attention.
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2016-04-23T05:43:39Z beach: The cl-ppcre documentation starts by describing scanning, and it talks about "registers" without first having defined this concept.  That is what I mean when I say that this kind of approach to documentation does not encourage the writer to explain concepts.
2016-04-23T05:44:29Z beach: http://weitz.de/cl-ppcre/
2016-04-23T05:47:05Z beach: For an example of the contrary, see for instance the GNU Emacs manual.  Richard Stallman is an excellent writer, and he understands the importance of defining concepts and terminology before using them.
2016-04-23T05:48:43Z Petit_Dejeuner: The drakma library had pretty good documentation. http://weitz.de/drakma/
2016-04-23T05:49:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: Examples of common usage followed by a detailed explanation of the features.
2016-04-23T05:51:49Z beach: That is entirely possible.  In no way was I suggesting that Edi is a bad writer.  All I am saying is that the work is not done just because you take the docstrings of your code and turn them into HTML or something similar.
2016-04-23T05:51:51Z aeth: It looks like this particular library lets you add stuff before and after the "The Foo dictionary" section, which is what is auto-generated.
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2016-04-23T05:52:15Z aeth: That's probably why I prefer this one to merely the auto-generated ones. The auto-generated sections of the documentation even here are the weakest.
2016-04-23T05:52:36Z aeth: s/to merely the auto-generated ones/to the ones that are only auto-generated/
2016-04-23T05:52:50Z fouric: beach! "Let Over Lambda" is even more advanced, for when you're done with "On Lisp"
2016-04-23T05:53:23Z beach: fouric: Good to know.
2016-04-23T05:53:41Z fouric: (not available free online, but worth the price, IMHO)
2016-04-23T05:55:10Z Petit_Dejeuner: A big chunk is available free online.
2016-04-23T05:55:45Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: I have updated your issue, it's work for you?
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2016-04-23T05:57:09Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: nop, I load the source file in REPL and no window appears.
2016-04-23T05:57:48Z aries_liuxueyang: though no error occurs.
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2016-04-23T05:59:26Z aries_liuxueyang: Does it because I did not install lispbuilder-sdl appropriately?
2016-04-23T05:59:57Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: Strange, in my environement it's work with this output: https://gist.github.com/adjivas/00553fe6f8aad3a29288879aad80983e
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2016-04-23T06:02:20Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: I cannot confirm this
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2016-04-23T06:03:44Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: But I can share with you a procedure of instalation of SBCL/SDL2 for Mac OS X ?
2016-04-23T06:04:19Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: wait. I tried again to load the file in slime. No window appears. But when I load the file in terminal with `sbcl --load filename.lisp`, the window appears.
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2016-04-23T06:06:23Z aries_liuxueyang: However, I cannot close the window by clicking the `x` button of the window..
2016-04-23T06:06:26Z aries_liuxueyang: Can you?
2016-04-23T06:06:40Z aries_liuxueyang: I have to close it by exit sbcl.
2016-04-23T06:07:16Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: Like you same result
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2016-04-23T06:08:08Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: The load argument is normal, it's because we interpret the script, I haven't configured your file for a compilation
2016-04-23T06:08:10Z aries_liuxueyang: on Linux, everything goes well. I can close the window by just press `q` key.
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2016-04-23T06:10:55Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: Maybe my code has some problem. Do you use lispbuilder-sdl  nomarlly on Mac OS X?
2016-04-23T06:10:55Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: I haven't the solution at this question, SBCL/SD2 and me it's rare :-)
2016-04-23T06:11:42Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: okay, thanks you all the same. :-) it helps me
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2016-04-23T06:14:02Z Jonsky: I want to know the AND of a list of (T T T nil ..) but I cannot (apply #'AND list) as AND is not a function. I see I can wrap the AND in a lambda and and REFUCE it. Or I can loop through the list. Is there other ways?
2016-04-23T06:14:25Z Bike: clhs every
2016-04-23T06:14:25Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm
2016-04-23T06:14:31Z Bike: (every #'identity list), particularly
2016-04-23T06:14:46Z Jonsky: oh YES!!! Thanks!!
2016-04-23T06:14:57Z Jonsky: How could I forget this!!
2016-04-23T06:15:23Z Bike: stick around here for a while, someone will ask the exact same question you just did every fwe weeks, and it'll stick in your mind!
2016-04-23T06:16:47Z Jonsky: Hahaha, nice advice.
2016-04-23T06:16:58Z Bike: teaching is the best way to learn dog
2016-04-23T06:18:09Z adjivas: aries_liuxueyang: Use this `(when (sdl:key-state-p :sdl-key-escape)  (sdl:push-quit-event) (sb-ext:exit)))` command
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2016-04-23T06:22:02Z aries_liuxueyang: adjivas: yeah, it does it.
2016-04-23T06:26:46Z moore33: beach: Hi beach!
2016-04-23T06:27:27Z fouric: What is /c
2016-04-23T06:27:33Z fouric: Whoops, sorry
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2016-04-23T07:04:28Z dongz: yo fouric
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2016-04-23T07:25:30Z fouric: ?
2016-04-23T07:25:31Z beach: moore33: Hello.  I am visiting friends, so I can't stick around and chat.
2016-04-23T07:26:29Z fouric: ohai
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2016-04-23T07:27:34Z dongz: yo
2016-04-23T07:27:42Z dongz: fouric: im from the other irc
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2016-04-23T09:02:21Z Jonsky: I found that I could (deftype bool () `(member nil T)) but I cannot see the mentioning of MEMBER as type specifier in CLHS or CLTL. Is there other such forms that can be used in deftype?
2016-04-23T09:06:44Z Jonsky: blimey, I found it. Sorry
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2016-04-23T13:50:37Z phoe_krk: Is there a facility to automatically generate a project's .asd file after scanning the directory tree for all .lisp files present?
2016-04-23T13:51:11Z phoe_krk: I want to focus on creating files and not on forgetting about manually adding them to the .asd after each new file.
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2016-04-23T13:56:59Z phoe_krk: If not - it looks like I'll be writing it myself.
2016-04-23T13:57:00Z phoe_krk: https://rosettacode.org/wiki/Walk_a_directory/Recursively#Common_Lisp
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2016-04-23T14:22:19Z pjb: phoe_krk: I have something like that, using the defpackage forms with the also-use declarations.
2016-04-23T14:22:42Z pjb: phoe_krk: but you would want something smarter, looking for macros and functions used by functions and macros to infer file dependencies.
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2016-04-23T14:24:20Z phoe_krk: pjb: now this is a huge source code walker.
2016-04-23T14:24:51Z phoe_krk: I'd rather provide it with an arbitrary order in which it should include directories' contents and base it off that.
2016-04-23T14:25:08Z phoe_krk: And possibly later introduce what you're speaking of.
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2016-04-23T15:03:44Z schjetne_: I wonder if methods using eql specializers are garbage collected when the objects they specialize on are collected...
2016-04-23T15:04:46Z alyssa: q/part
2016-04-23T15:04:46Z mood: schjetne_: I don't think the objects they specialize will get collected. I mean, the method still references them
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2016-04-23T15:05:17Z schjetne_: ah, I see
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2016-04-23T15:08:33Z phoe_krk: Is there a function that takes a function, a number and an argument and will repeatedly call the function on the argument number times?
2016-04-23T15:08:48Z phoe_krk: Like, (call-n-times #'cdr 5 list) == (cdr (cdr (cdr (cdr (cdr list)))))
2016-04-23T15:09:14Z phoe_krk: (And yes, I know about nth-cdr; this is just an example.)
2016-04-23T15:11:26Z drmeister: Hey mood - any luck with rtti?
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2016-04-23T15:12:06Z jackdaniel: (defmacro call-n-times (function n &rest args) (once-only (function n) (if (zerop n) `(,function ,@args) `(call-n-times ,function ,(1- n) ,@args)))
2016-04-23T15:12:09Z PuercoPop: phoe_krk: easy to create with dotimes, but you'll probably want to use rest for arguments and apply
2016-04-23T15:12:14Z mood: drmeister: I now use externals-clasp instead of a modified Alpine build script. Somehow linking to llvm doesn't work as nicely
2016-04-23T15:12:22Z mood: drmeister: As in, doesn't work, for some reason
2016-04-23T15:12:44Z mood: drmeister: I believe I posted the log in #clasp, will check
2016-04-23T15:13:05Z drmeister: Argh - I'm on my phone - I'll be back on my computer in an hour or so
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2016-04-23T15:13:13Z jackdaniel: my example is wrong of course, but you know the drill :)
2016-04-23T15:13:45Z mood: drmeister: I haven't really looked into it further (yet). log: https://link.joram.io/Ub.log
2016-04-23T15:13:46Z jackdaniel: `(,function (call-n-times ,function ,n ,@args)) as third if clause
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2016-04-23T15:41:10Z Amaan: Halp http://pastie.org/private/laxklyoi0mhyjcyzq4usqq
2016-04-23T15:42:00Z Amaan: Here's my .emacs file http://pastie.org/private/n0hqmpgw42fxvae0h8eqa
2016-04-23T15:42:14Z Amaan: I'm getting errors trying to set up Quicklisp within emacs
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2016-04-23T15:43:11Z Amaan: Xach: Should I just download Lisp-in-a-box and come back to trying to set things up with Emacs later, when I understand more?
2016-04-23T15:43:41Z mood: Amaan: Quicklisp is not something you load into Emacs, which you appear to be trying to do
2016-04-23T15:43:46Z Amaan: Sorry about the unsolicited ping
2016-04-23T15:43:55Z mood: Quicklisp should be loaded into your Common Lisp implementation
2016-04-23T15:44:23Z Amaan: Ah.
2016-04-23T15:44:45Z Amaan: That makes sense
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2016-04-23T16:26:39Z isoraqathedh: echo test | sbcl seems to make sbcl exit immediately without landing in the repl and I can't figure out why.
2016-04-23T16:26:56Z Petit_Dejeuner: Amaan: I found this a little more updated than lisp in a box, but your mileage may vary. http://lispcabinet.sourceforge.net/
2016-04-23T16:29:56Z dongz: emacs lisp is a joke
2016-04-23T16:31:45Z Petit_Dejeuner: I think it's in the same niche as perl5.
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2016-04-23T16:32:05Z Petit_Dejeuner: You don't really NEED any language besides it, because it can handle just about any problem you have.
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2016-04-23T16:34:20Z |3b|: isoraqathedh: it probably exits when it sees EOF on stdin
2016-04-23T16:36:14Z Bike: isoraqathedh: you can do "sbcl --eval whatever", and it will evaluate it and then go to the repl.
2016-04-23T16:36:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: isoraqathedh: why not just 'sbcl test'?
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2016-04-23T16:37:19Z Petit_Dejeuner: wait no, I'm stupid
2016-04-23T16:37:33Z Petit_Dejeuner: There's a --load flag.
2016-04-23T16:37:50Z Petit_Dejeuner used to all this.
2016-04-23T16:37:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: know*
2016-04-23T16:38:08Z Bike: echo, not cat, but that's good to know too
2016-04-23T16:38:53Z fiddlerwoaroof: echo test | xargs sbcl --eval :)
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2016-04-23T16:48:11Z emaczen: What do you need enabled to run "M-x slime-browse-classes" ?
2016-04-23T16:49:06Z pjb: I have slime-browse-system.
2016-04-23T16:49:18Z pjb: Perhaps some other contribution?
2016-04-23T16:49:18Z pjb:  
2016-04-23T16:49:27Z emaczen: I have no completions for slime-browse
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2016-04-23T16:53:27Z emaczen: Is this only a SBCL feature?
2016-04-23T16:53:53Z emaczen: slime-browse-classes draws a tree of your class hierarchy you select
2016-04-23T16:55:42Z jackdaniel: emaczen: it's feature of each implementation which has it implemented in swank
2016-04-23T16:55:51Z jackdaniel: check out defimplementation in your slime source directory
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2016-04-23T16:58:19Z emaczen: jackdaniel: defimplementation is a file?
2016-04-23T16:58:29Z jackdaniel: it's a macro as far as I recall
2016-04-23T17:00:10Z emaczen: jackdaniel: Are you saying that it should work with CCL?
2016-04-23T17:00:29Z jackdaniel: you have function implementations in slime-src/swank directory interfaces are defined in swank/backend.lisp
2016-04-23T17:00:41Z phoe_krk: looks like a good moment to take a walk
2016-04-23T17:00:53Z jackdaniel: emaczen: no, I'm saying that it could work in CCL if CCL has it's own implementation of this particular interface
2016-04-23T17:01:06Z phoe_krk just accidentally input 9e6 #\a chars into his REPL
2016-04-23T17:01:45Z hydraz is now known as ban
2016-04-23T17:01:55Z Bike: it's good to use long, informative variable names
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2016-04-23T17:02:17Z phoe_krk: Yes, variables like "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" are way too short and nothing-telling.
2016-04-23T17:02:58Z pjb: So you could analyse a program, by evaluating the information contents of the identifiers, and report identifiers too isignificant.
2016-04-23T17:03:03Z pjb: +n
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2016-04-23T17:06:58Z emaczen: Alright, the names of list *unimplemented-interfaces* don't seem to say anything about "slime-browse-classes"
2016-04-23T17:07:12Z emaczen: It is easy to see that CCL doesn't support slime debugging (which I already knew)
2016-04-23T17:10:40Z isoraqathedh: AH, okay.
2016-04-23T17:10:51Z isoraqathedh: So if sbcl receives input from a pipe it'll pretend it's a script.
2016-04-23T17:10:55Z isoraqathedh: Hmm...
2016-04-23T17:11:36Z |3b|: no, it "pretends" it is the input
2016-04-23T17:11:59Z |3b|: when the input stream is closed (or otherwise sends EOF), it exits
2016-04-23T17:12:25Z isoraqathedh: Ah, okay.
2016-04-23T17:13:11Z |3b|: it wouldn't be a very useful repl anyway, if it were just sitting waiting for more input from the (closed) pipe
2016-04-23T17:13:40Z isoraqathedh: I'm not sure how this translates to executables made by save-lisp-and-die :executable t.
2016-04-23T17:13:55Z isoraqathedh: (With a definite entry point)
2016-04-23T17:14:10Z Bike: i guess that depends on what your entry point does with the input stream?
2016-04-23T17:14:14Z |3b|: up to the entry point
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2016-04-23T17:14:38Z |3b|: normal sbcl more or less is a executable made with save-lisp-and-die :executable t
2016-04-23T17:15:08Z isoraqathedh: In that case…
2016-04-23T17:15:17Z isoraqathedh: I'll have to experiment some.
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2016-04-23T17:19:53Z isoraqathedh: uiop:*stdin* always points to stdin as in the pipe, yes?
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2016-04-23T17:29:44Z phoe_krk: pjb: the asd-generator is progressing. I got about 60% of the algorithm.
2016-04-23T17:29:50Z phoe_krk: And now I *do* take a walk.
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2016-04-23T17:58:37Z aeth: (defvar |*The best thing about Common Lisp is the convention to use long, meaningful identifiers.*| "The best thing about Common Lisp is the convention to use long, meaningful identifiers.")
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2016-04-23T18:05:05Z |3b|: aeth: you forgot the docstring explaining that the purpose of the variable is to store a message about how the convention of using long meaningful identifiers is the best thing about common lisp :p
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2016-04-23T18:19:30Z Petit_Dejeuner: Might as well do hungarian types while you're at it.
2016-04-23T18:19:36Z Petit_Dejeuner: And include the author of the variable in the name.
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2016-04-23T18:46:07Z edgar-rft: aeth: Common Lisp symbol-names are strings. Common Lisp strings have a length limit of array-dimension-limit. The value of array-dimension-limit is implementation dependent but not smaller than 1024.
2016-04-23T18:46:07Z edgar-rft: To me this reads as if a really descriptive Common Lisp symbol-name should have a minimum length of 1024 characters. Your variable name is way too short.
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2016-04-23T18:47:48Z |3b|: sounds like a maximum if you want portable code
2016-04-23T18:47:50Z aeth: edgar-rft: well, actually a maximum
2016-04-23T18:48:00Z fouric: Don't forget some sort of versioning information so that if the API changes, we won't use the old variables!
2016-04-23T18:48:15Z pjb: edgar-rft: no, this means that if you want to write a conforming common lisp program, you should not write symbols with names greater than 1024 characters.
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2016-04-23T18:48:27Z |3b|: fouric: you can just version the packages
2016-04-23T18:48:39Z pjb: Otherwise, you might encounter an implementation where 1024 is the limit, that couldn't read your source.
2016-04-23T18:48:40Z |3b|: put a timestamp in the package name or something
2016-04-23T18:48:57Z pjb: The same is true for package names.
2016-04-23T18:49:50Z fouric: |3b|! I thought that it was a joke? (after all, Petit_Dejeuner mentioned including Hungarian types and the author's name)
2016-04-23T18:49:52Z aeth: Forget portability. I only want to use implementations where I can make my identifiers 10 million characters long.
2016-04-23T18:50:04Z pjb: then ok.
2016-04-23T18:51:07Z aeth: I also want to embed Google tracking within my identifiers. We need an IdentifierScript language to do this, though.
2016-04-23T18:51:20Z |3b|: fouric: didn't say it wasn't :)
2016-04-23T18:52:09Z edgar-rft: aeth: Will your symbol names support Google ads too?
2016-04-23T18:52:30Z fouric takes things too "literally", as always
2016-04-23T18:52:36Z pjb: edgar-rft: good idea.
2016-04-23T18:52:38Z aeth: edgar-rft: Yes, because we can use a system built on read eval to set up the IdentifierScript system.
2016-04-23T18:53:18Z Petit_Dejeuner: We could put type declarations in symbol names.
2016-04-23T18:53:32Z |3b| 's sense of humor frequently involves taking things literally that shouldn't be :p 
2016-04-23T18:53:57Z aeth: Instead of using identifiers directly, use #.foo
2016-04-23T18:54:12Z aeth: trivial example: (defun #.'hello () "Hi") ; valid, defines HELLO
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2016-04-23T18:54:33Z fouric: (string "literally" in my case)
2016-04-23T18:54:38Z aeth: so we can come up with a preprocessor of sorts for identifier names, and embed scripts there
2016-04-23T18:55:16Z pjb: (defun factorial-buy-wolfram-mathematica-|http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/| (|http://www.wolframalpha.com/|) (if (plusp |http://www.wolframalpha.com/|) (* |http://www.wolframalpha.com/| (factorial-buy-wolfram-mathematica-|http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/| (1- |http://www.wolframalpha.com/|))) 1))
2016-04-23T18:55:25Z Petit_Dejeuner: I love it.
2016-04-23T18:55:27Z pjb: How much do you think I could get from Wolfram for such code?
2016-04-23T18:55:44Z Petit_Dejeuner: Actually, putting ads in obfuscated js would be pretty awesome.
2016-04-23T18:56:04Z Petit_Dejeuner: pjb: Depends what project it's part of. Try to get linus to merge it.
2016-04-23T18:57:11Z aeth: (defun #.(generate-symbol-name) () 'hi) ; we can do whatever we want in #.(generate-symbol-name) although a full-featured version will have arguments
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2016-04-23T18:57:27Z aeth: If that name sounds vaguely familiar that's because we can do it with gensym too: (defun #.(gensym) () 'hi)
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2016-04-23T18:58:51Z aeth: Afaik, we can use the #. reader macro to do whatever we want, including connect to the Internet and use an advertisement in the identifier name.
2016-04-23T19:01:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: "We have meta programming in language X?" "Oh, so I can download something at compile time?"
2016-04-23T19:01:06Z Petit_Dejeuner: in language X!
2016-04-23T19:01:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: *
2016-04-23T19:01:56Z aeth: By the way, what library is the library typically used to download stuff from the Internet? (like wget or curl in sh)
2016-04-23T19:02:13Z mood: aeth: Drakma
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2016-04-23T19:02:42Z Petit_Dejeuner: http://weitz.de/drakma/
2016-04-23T19:03:17Z aeth: That pulls in 12 packages, it'll be great for the reader-macro advertisement system.
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2016-04-23T19:32:17Z edgar-rft: aeth: You could use Drakma to download Google Ads and send them back to Google! That would be a sigificant contribution to human sanity.
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2016-04-23T19:41:12Z Jonsky: haha
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2016-04-23T20:22:34Z aeth: Even better... Google uses Common Lisp because it acquired ITA. It even has a large CL style guide. https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2016-04-23T20:22:55Z aeth: Just get the upstream of the libraries Google uses to implement Google ads in the program via reader macros.
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2016-04-23T20:25:41Z phoe_krk: pjb: I almost got it.
2016-04-23T20:31:38Z phoe_krk: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314508 Hey, pjb! I think I hammered out the big bugs.
2016-04-23T20:32:12Z phoe_krk: The first thing is the static data I write by hand, with (:rest) being the placeholder for all files remaining at a directory.
2016-04-23T20:32:23Z phoe_krk: The second is the listing of all .lisp files in my project, thanks to CL-FAD.
2016-04-23T20:32:39Z phoe_krk: The third - the output of my algorithm, ready to splice into the ASD file.
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2016-04-23T21:34:47Z jason_m: I just started playing around with ceramic.  It looks like if I just have my application idle for a couple minutes (not sure how many) it crashes with an I/O Timeout error.  Any ceramic users?
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2016-04-23T21:47:41Z eudoxia: jason_m: yo
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2016-04-23T21:53:06Z eudoxia: jason_m: are you using the latest, latest version? to check do (asdf:find-system :remote-js)
2016-04-23T21:53:26Z eudoxia: this one uses WebSockets (new, shiny) instead of terminal I/O streaming (old, clunky) to communicate between Electron and CL
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2016-04-23T21:56:58Z phoe_krk: Is there a way to properly newline and indent a .lisp file from within Common Lisp?
2016-04-23T21:57:29Z Bike: sure. read the entire thing and then pretty print it back.
2016-04-23T21:58:32Z prxq: phoe_krk: in emacs?
2016-04-23T21:59:33Z phoe_krk: Bike: hm, this does sound sane.
2016-04-23T21:59:35Z prxq: C-x h C-M-\
2016-04-23T21:59:44Z phoe_krk: prxq: no, without jumping to Emacs.
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2016-04-23T22:00:33Z phoe_krk: Hm. Any way to tell the pprinter to keep keywords and values together on a line?
2016-04-23T22:01:04Z Bike: the pretty printer is really complicated. if nothing else you could put something in the table for (satisfies plist-p)
2016-04-23T22:01:23Z Bike: but it kind of varies. like, what if you have a million key/values?
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2016-04-23T22:02:18Z phoe_krk: I wouldn't be printing *that*, I think.
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2016-04-23T22:11:34Z phoe_krk:  
2016-04-23T22:11:43Z bullets: hi
2016-04-23T22:11:52Z bullets: I have a problem I don't understand
2016-04-23T22:11:54Z bullets: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314518
2016-04-23T22:12:01Z bullets: with reading files
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2016-04-23T22:12:43Z bullets: basically I try to read all the lines in a file and cons them into a list. it returns a list of 230 elements, while the file is 326 lines long
2016-04-23T22:13:15Z bullets: no newlines in the fiile, it's just a bunch of hex strings. What am I doing wrong?
2016-04-23T22:14:18Z bullets: (by newlines I mean no /^$/ lines)
2016-04-23T22:14:51Z phoe_krk: Try substituting DEFVAR with DEFPARAMETER just in case.
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2016-04-23T22:15:16Z bullets: oh
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2016-04-23T22:17:10Z |3b|: also, (loop for line = ... while line collect line) unless you really need it in reverse order (and in that case use (push line lines) rather than (setf line (cons line lines)))
2016-04-23T22:17:52Z bullets: |3b|: thanks for that tip
2016-04-23T22:18:03Z bullets: I'm still learning lisp
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2016-04-23T22:20:06Z bullets: btw another strange error is that they seemed to be scrambled. As I tracked the (first work) and (last work) and searched for them within the file, both elements were very close together
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2016-04-23T22:23:37Z |3b|: does that still happen with the fixed code?
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2016-04-23T22:24:52Z |3b|: hard to find problems without seeing the actual code, the pasted code couldn't put anything in WORK, since the loop wouldn't return, so presumably it was filled by some other code that did something different
2016-04-23T22:24:54Z bullets: now it doesn't halt
2016-04-23T22:25:16Z Bike: nice timing.
2016-04-23T22:26:17Z |3b|: actually, i'm surprised the pasted code even runs
2016-04-23T22:26:43Z |3b| missed that the loop was lacking a DO or similar clause
2016-04-23T22:27:10Z bullets: yeah defvar omitted that because work was already defined
2016-04-23T22:27:19Z bullets: defparameter showed me the error now it doesn't halt
2016-04-23T22:27:47Z |3b|: right, you need a WHILE clause or something to terminate the loop
2016-04-23T22:28:46Z |3b|: you tell READ-LINE to return NIL instead of erroring when it gets to the end of the file, so the loop just keeps adding NILs to the list
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2016-04-23T22:29:29Z Bike: well, there you go, it stops on OOM. very civil
2016-04-23T22:29:30Z bullets: OH
2016-04-23T22:29:42Z bullets: OOM?
2016-04-23T22:29:48Z bullets: it works now, thanks |3b|
2016-04-23T22:30:08Z Bike: out of memory
2016-04-23T22:30:49Z bullets: oh. yeah. I'm so used to C I wanted to induce lisp into a core dump
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2016-04-23T22:30:50Z bullets: :P
2016-04-23T22:32:23Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a book sort of like learn you a haskell with similar functions but written in common lisp?
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2016-04-23T22:34:02Z bullets: does Land of Lisp work for you?
2016-04-23T22:34:47Z Bike: from what i remember of learn you a haskell, a lot of it wouldn't translate well.
2016-04-23T22:36:55Z John[Lisbeth]: Basically I need to know some basic things to transform data, some of the basic syntax, and the ability to do folds on lisp. But ultimately I want to study low level programming with lisp as well.
2016-04-23T22:37:24Z John[Lisbeth]: I am interested in the mathematical definition of a lisp and what makes something a lisp, such as emacs of scheme or clojure.
2016-04-23T22:37:32Z varjag: folds as in reduce?
2016-04-23T22:38:09Z Petit_Dejeuner: yeah
2016-04-23T22:38:25Z |3b|: there isn't really a definition of "a lisp", mathematical or otherwise
2016-04-23T22:38:48Z varjag: there's the mcarthy paper
2016-04-23T22:39:00Z Petit_Dejeuner: There's the Common Lisp standard. :)
2016-04-23T22:39:05Z varjag: but it kinda old by now
2016-04-23T22:39:18Z |3b|: (or at least not a single one, you could probably convince many people to give you definitions, but you would probably get a different definition from each, or sufficiently vague definitions to be completely useless)
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2016-04-23T22:41:14Z |3b|: there is lambda calculus, but it is about as related to real lisps as turing machines are to C-like languages
2016-04-23T22:41:46Z John[Lisbeth]: I would say the exact opposite but I am real new to this still.
2016-04-23T22:41:52Z Petit_Dejeuner: Some what relevant. http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/
2016-04-23T22:42:21Z varjag: John[Lisbeth]: lisp foundations in mathematics ain't too pretty
2016-04-23T22:42:32Z varjag: it was a compromise for practicality from the start
2016-04-23T22:44:53Z p_l: Lisp wasn't created to be mathematically pure, but to solve interesting problems in nice way that other, math-oriented or machine-oriented languages made hard
2016-04-23T22:45:21Z Bike: you could read http://www.amazon.com/Semantics-Destructive-Center-Language-Information/dp/0937073067 i guess.
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2016-04-23T22:49:15Z phoe_krk: it works!
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2016-04-23T22:59:01Z phoe_krk: https://github.com/phoe-krk/asd-generator
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2016-04-23T22:59:10Z phoe_krk: Just built my project using this.
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2016-04-23T23:00:58Z John[Lisbeth]: http://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2013/07/18/javascript-isnt-scheme/ I don't see how that related
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2016-04-23T23:02:53Z Petit_Dejeuner: It lists differences between Scheme and other languages and gives an example of people arguing whether a language is or isn't Scheme.
2016-04-23T23:03:08Z Petit_Dejeuner: ...and I consider Scheme and Lisp similar.
2016-04-23T23:03:28Z phoe_krk: Scheme *is* a Lisp.
2016-04-23T23:03:34Z Petit_Dejeuner: ;)
2016-04-23T23:03:39Z Petit_Dejeuner: sure
2016-04-23T23:03:39Z phoe_krk: :P
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2016-04-23T23:31:05Z John[Lisbeth]: Is there a place to look at c functions and see their equivelants in common lisp?
2016-04-23T23:31:13Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: nope.
2016-04-23T23:31:47Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: this is a strange question.  I fail to see what you're reaching at with that.
2016-04-23T23:32:23Z John[Lisbeth]: I want to use datastructures similar to c datastructures I suppose is the best way to say it
2016-04-23T23:32:53Z Bike: get defstructing?
2016-04-23T23:33:35Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: there's little point of trying to mimic C datastructures in Lisp. This will in general give you suboptimal solutions.
2016-04-23T23:34:27Z John[Lisbeth]: I want to think very precicely about the binary and about clock tics
2016-04-23T23:34:31Z John[Lisbeth]: and I care alot about multithreading
2016-04-23T23:35:01Z John[Lisbeth]: I am willing to use finite state machines and hard code any problems that are not too difficult to hard code.
2016-04-23T23:35:19Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: for example, in C, since you have the choice betwee "strong" typing (struct point* next) and no typing (void* next), you have to implement linked lists in all the structures that you want to link, or you lose type safety. On the other hand, in lisp, you just use a cons cell to build all your linked lists, and thus you can put your structures in multiple lists at the same time without problem and still keeing strong
2016-04-23T23:35:19Z pjb: typing.
2016-04-23T23:35:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I think I will avoid linked list and use arrays.
2016-04-23T23:36:13Z pjb: There's definitely now ay to think precisely about the binary.  While you can use dpb and ldb to manipulate bit fields in integers, you cannot know how those integers are laid out in memory.
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2016-04-23T23:36:44Z pjb: There's no telling how arrays are laid out in memory either (apart that indexing is made by row major order).
2016-04-23T23:37:12Z John[Lisbeth]: Perhaps I could remove garbage collection
2016-04-23T23:37:24Z Bike: you could just write in C
2016-04-23T23:37:26Z pjb: That said, C doesn't give you a lot of guarantee either, so if your problem is to think precisely about the binary and abou clock ticks, you should most definitely program in assembler.
2016-04-23T23:38:15Z John[Lisbeth]: I am thinking about using another type of closure besides lambdas
2016-04-23T23:38:34Z John[Lisbeth]: or maybe using iteration instead of recursion
2016-04-23T23:38:52Z pjb: You can write compilers in lisp, if you need to generate assembly code to implement another type of closure instead of lambda.
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2016-04-23T23:39:36Z John[Lisbeth]: True, and I would probably do that no matter what if I ever moved away from common lisp, but I am not quite convinced that common lisp can't be sort of lobotmized and be made to be a lower level language with some tradeoffs
2016-04-23T23:40:18Z John[Lisbeth]: For example using loop or even goto
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2016-04-23T23:40:48Z Bike: you can do goto with tagbody, but garbage collection and associated memory usage abilities and patterns are baked in pretty hard, generally
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2016-04-23T23:42:29Z phoe_krk: You could always make a few huge arrays and operate only on these to limit GC usage.
2016-04-23T23:42:47Z pjb: You could use Movitz, it lacks a garbage collector.
2016-04-23T23:43:45Z phoe_krk: Boom, you suddenly have pointers again. aref 2390854342 on some memory block.
2016-04-23T23:43:47Z pjb: if you use arrays, restrict yourself to some upgraded element type (depending on the implementation) such as (unsigned-byte 8).
2016-04-23T23:43:54Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-04-23T23:44:05Z phoe_krk: And basically implement a von Neumann machine there on a fixed array.
2016-04-23T23:44:09Z phoe_krk: Boom, you have C again.
2016-04-23T23:46:21Z John[Lisbeth]: doesn't the lambda evaluate to gotos in the end?
2016-04-23T23:46:34Z Bike: that seems like a pretty confused question.
2016-04-23T23:47:02Z Bike: what do you mean, exactly? what is "evaluate to"?
2016-04-23T23:48:08Z John[Lisbeth]: It is hard to explain what I mean
2016-04-23T23:48:39Z Bike: they say you don't really understand something until you can explain it to someone else clearly
2016-04-23T23:49:32Z John[Lisbeth]: I come here because I don't understand, and I want to.
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2016-04-23T23:50:31Z Bike: what you might be thinking of is compilation. modern computers almost entirely use constructs somewhat (somewhat!) like C goto, and a lisp implementation targeting such a machine would probably use that in compiled code.
2016-04-23T23:50:59Z John[Lisbeth]: isn't that most machines though?
2016-04-23T23:51:12Z Bike: "almost entirely", yes
2016-04-23T23:51:26Z Bike: but you could also target a virtual machine, etc
2016-04-23T23:51:38Z John[Lisbeth]: Are there rentable virtual machines in datacenters of lisp machines?
2016-04-23T23:52:10Z Bike: no, you'd rent a virtual conventional machine and then run one of those emulators, i guess.
2016-04-23T23:52:24Z John[Lisbeth]: Do the emulators help?
2016-04-23T23:52:27Z Bike: help what
2016-04-23T23:52:33Z John[Lisbeth]: speed
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2016-04-23T23:53:24Z Bike: running your code on a 1980s computer is not going to improve speed over running it on a 2016 one, no.
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2016-04-23T23:54:07Z John[Lisbeth]: then why the emmulators?
2016-04-23T23:54:24Z Bike: historical interest, mainly
2016-04-23T23:54:43Z Bike: i don't load up NESticle to get the greatest new games, you know?
2016-04-23T23:57:10Z John[Lisbeth]: Is it true that Darpa uses lots of lisp machines?
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2016-04-23T23:57:29Z Bike: i have never heard that.
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2016-04-23T23:58:15Z Bike: lisp machines are not magic.
2016-04-23T23:59:35Z John[Lisbeth]: Perhaps writing lisp code that produces precise assembler like someone mentioned earlier would be better.
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2016-04-24T00:03:13Z John[Lisbeth]: I guess all I really need is a function that appends two strings
2016-04-24T00:03:52Z Bike: (concatenate 'string string1 string2)
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2016-04-24T00:08:50Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: implementations that use a virtual machine usually design this virtual machine like a lisp machine.
2016-04-24T00:08:57Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: cf. clisp, ecl, cmucl, etc.
2016-04-24T00:09:16Z pjb: (GNU emacs too)
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2016-04-24T00:10:13Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: what you seem to be at, is writing your own compiler.
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2016-04-24T00:11:35Z John[Lisbeth]: perhaps. I have never written a compiler. I have never treaded beneath the shell.
2016-04-24T00:12:05Z pjb: But what problem are you trying to solve?
2016-04-24T00:12:37Z John[Lisbeth]: low level programming in lisp
2016-04-24T00:12:54Z pjb: This is not a problem.
2016-04-24T00:13:00Z pjb: Low level programming may be a solution.
2016-04-24T00:13:41Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: again, you might want to be writing assembler code. Most implementations include a lisp assembler (LAP).  It's called VOP in SBCL.
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2016-04-24T00:14:05Z John[Lisbeth]: so it should be VOP in slime correct?
2016-04-24T00:14:17Z pjb: If you use sbcl, yes.
2016-04-24T00:15:08Z pjb: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=378581#hnmain
2016-04-24T00:16:05Z pjb: http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2014/03/15/sbcl-the-ultimate-assembly-code-breadboard/
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2016-04-24T00:16:42Z John[Lisbeth]: are you saying you can get macros in assembly?
2016-04-24T00:17:18Z pjb: Of course.
2016-04-24T00:17:25Z pjb: There have always been macro assemblers.
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2016-04-24T00:21:09Z jsgrant:  pjb What's VOP stahd for?
2016-04-24T00:21:23Z pjb: Virtual OPeration, I guess.
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2016-04-24T00:21:55Z jsgrant: pjb: Ah, that makes sense; Thanks for enabling my laziness. :^)
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2016-04-24T00:34:54Z jsgrant: Bike: TAKE THAT BACK!!! They're obviously magic, they literally run on unicorn farts.
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2016-04-24T00:36:49Z jsgrant: John[Lisbeth]: I vaguely recall some US goverment (allegedly) having some support contracts with Symbolics; And this being the reason why the guy who bought the IP from the original owners, won't opensource the system.
2016-04-24T00:37:00Z jsgrant: But I'm sure that is mostly speculation.
2016-04-24T00:37:22Z jsgrant: Lot's of weasel words in those lasts two submits. X^D
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2016-04-24T00:48:53Z PuercoPop: there is also cl-comfy https://github.com/jaoswald/cl-comfy-6502 and https://github.com/kingcons/cl-6502
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2016-04-24T01:07:44Z brfpocock: I seem to recall there being some FPGA Lisp CPU bandied about a couple of years ago, perhaps something I heard from H4ns ?
2016-04-24T01:08:22Z jsgrant: brfpocock: The PicoLisp board; Don't know if that was a FPGA or on dedicated hardware though.
2016-04-24T01:08:26Z jsgrant: ?*
2016-04-24T01:09:29Z jsgrant would love a FPGA programmable in Lisp; But atm, would just love a FPGA with just an open toolchain.
2016-04-24T01:09:37Z brfpocock: I have faint memory of someone, likely he, mentioning being eager to toy with it, as it was arriving in the post; might have been His Kennyness … vague recollection.
2016-04-24T01:09:55Z jsgrant: That market is so locked down in proprietary software, it's crazy.
2016-04-24T01:09:56Z Bike: icestorm's pretty far along
2016-04-24T01:10:57Z jsgrant: Bike: Oh wow, never heard of this.
2016-04-24T01:11:06Z Bike: cool innit
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2016-04-24T01:13:01Z jsgrant: Are consumer boards even powerful enough, to run a moderately complete desktop off of?
2016-04-24T01:13:12Z brfpocock: +1. Bookmarked for "someday when I can destroy a week making something silly."
2016-04-24T01:14:31Z jsgrant: Really, this is the only route that I see being probable to get a "LispM" like system nowadays, barring home-fabrication becomes insanely cheap.
2016-04-24T01:14:48Z Bike: you can get 200 MHz with microblaze, there's a potential moderately complete 1990s desktop i guess
2016-04-24T01:14:51Z Bike: maybe run some doom
2016-04-24T01:15:16Z Petit_Dejeuner: maybe run some (doom)|(modern webpage)
2016-04-24T01:15:33Z brfpocock: FPGAs in general? I've seen cycle-accurate Amigas, so you should be able to run a Linux with 2D X11 on one.
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2016-04-24T01:16:12Z jsgrant: Bike: Yeah, that's neat but also kind of a bummer. I'd want something that I cold spend maybe 1000 usd on and get like an Atom processor worth of performance or similar.
2016-04-24T01:16:50Z Bike: i think you should buy an atom processor and a smaller fpga :p
2016-04-24T01:17:47Z brfpocock: I'd be happy with just having (CL)~Emacs and a WebKit analogue readily tied in to a Lisp image, and damn the hardware levels, but perhaps I think small.
2016-04-24T01:18:06Z jsgrant: Bike: Yeah, I probably should -- just the romanticizing of this stuff, kinda makes that hybrid approach inherently less attractive that of the "purist".
2016-04-24T01:18:44Z brfpocock: IE, LispM-type user session on stock hardware
2016-04-24T01:18:53Z Bike: eh, computers are like that. you could probably do it all on a CPU, and yet somehow I prefer having a NIC
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2016-04-24T01:19:31Z jsgrant: brfpocock: I want a Mcclim based webbrowser; But that would be a PITA to maintain a webengine I'd think for such a thing -- sans, just using Qtools an Webkit.
2016-04-24T01:20:28Z jsgrant: brfpocock: I'm basically using an ~75-85% interactive CL session atm, it's not that hard for the bulk. It's the minority of the workflow, that'd be absurd to replace atm.
2016-04-24T01:20:32Z brfpocock: I have a Thing I'm doing for horrible reasons to try to work McCLIM with Facebook's React libs. Spoiler: it sucks so far.
2016-04-24T01:21:36Z brfpocock: But I hope/intend to allow using a web browser as a dumbterminal with CLIM some future day.
2016-04-24T01:21:45Z jsgrant: Emacs & Stumpwm itself gets you like maybe 65% of such a thing.
2016-04-24T01:22:29Z jsgrant is hoping Paulownia's gui abstraction will be enough, such that using Mcclim as backend sans Qtools will be trivial.
2016-04-24T01:23:16Z jsgrant: Same with Wayland/Xcb, to a potential Common Lisp based display server and/or compositor.
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2016-04-24T01:24:27Z brfpocock: I'm originally JAPH, so I fully support the Three Virtues.
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2016-04-24T01:25:52Z jsgrant: brfpocock: I know "JAPH" is "Just Another Perl Hacker" -- but what are the three virtues?
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2016-04-24T01:26:25Z brfpocock: Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris
2016-04-24T01:27:17Z brfpocock: http://threevirtues.com/ … do the least required to make it work, but make it work robustly.
2016-04-24T01:27:59Z jsgrant: How about; Write Specs, Make Layered Abstraction, Do It Right the First Time? :^P
2016-04-24T01:29:46Z brfpocock: Ah, I usually go with a process more like, "think small; surround the stuff you did wrong the first time in guards and tests; make it painfully clear how it works so you remember next week." I guess more of a REPL/XP/Agile method.
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2016-04-24T01:31:17Z brfpocock: I have only once sat down, written a spec, implemented it, and had it work right at first go, and I had such a panic attack I delayed deployment for more testing nearly a full day.
2016-04-24T01:31:56Z jsgrant: This ]https://elliot.land/readme-driven-development] was posed on the /r/programming subreddit yesterday and it really kinda irked me.
2016-04-24T01:32:24Z brfpocock: Moment. Mobile phone, so context switch.
2016-04-24T01:32:32Z jsgrant: brfpocock: Well, are you at least going into a project with some intention of how you are going to implement such things? It seems many people won't even do this.
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2016-04-24T01:35:30Z jsgrant: brfpocock: Well, are you at least going into a project with some intention of how you are going to implement such things? It seems many people won't even do this. (posted before you went down)
2016-04-24T01:36:30Z jsgrant: Just the commonsense that post displays, as if it was some hardlearned -- sage advice, ick.
2016-04-24T01:37:33Z brfpocock: Sorry, mobile IRC usually drops when I go to FFox 😫 Intentions, yes … I often do more like a "top down" with mocks for lower levels. Eg, no database, just some dynamics at first or something.
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2016-04-24T01:39:57Z jsgrant: brfpocock: Yeah, which is fine; Just makes me weary how common this "head first" kind of design is, where such a thing is seen as "needed" to be thrust into the ether
2016-04-24T01:39:59Z jsgrant: .
2016-04-24T01:40:13Z jsgrant: via said blog post.*
2016-04-24T01:42:54Z jsgrant: And by no means am I a wiz-kid; I guess I just can't relate to people willing to risk putting their work out like that.
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2016-04-24T01:50:25Z jsgrant: Or it could be that I just suck so much, that I'm in need of doing this over others. :^P
2016-04-24T01:50:36Z jsgrant: Either or, whatever.
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2016-04-24T11:40:42Z aries_liuxueyang: hello,
2016-04-24T11:40:48Z aries_liuxueyang: how do you configure asdf?
2016-04-24T11:40:49Z aries_liuxueyang: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.html#Configuring-ASDF-to-find-your-systems
2016-04-24T11:40:54Z aries_liuxueyang: like this?
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2016-04-24T11:44:39Z aries_liuxueyang: I create a file ~/.config/common-lisp/source-registry.conf.d/projects.conf, which
2016-04-24T11:44:39Z aries_liuxueyang: contains `(:tree (:home "projects"))`
2016-04-24T11:44:39Z aries_liuxueyang: then I place my projects in to ~/projects, but when I enter
2016-04-24T11:44:39Z aries_liuxueyang: `(asdf:load-system "project-name") `
2016-04-24T11:44:39Z aries_liuxueyang: sbcl shows : ` Component "project-name" not found`
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2016-04-24T11:45:37Z aries_liuxueyang: my asdf version is 3.1.5
2016-04-24T11:46:45Z papachan`: well i have:
2016-04-24T11:46:54Z papachan`: (:tree "~/dev/source_code/quicklisp/")
2016-04-24T11:46:58Z papachan`: and it load my projects
2016-04-24T11:47:35Z aries_liuxueyang: yeah, i tried this way. it does not work either.
2016-04-24T11:48:32Z aries_liuxueyang: anyone knows why?
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2016-04-24T12:25:09Z mood: aries_liuxueyang: Are the .asd files named after the system? (so project-name.asd). Is your ASDF version recent?
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2016-04-24T12:30:14Z aries_liuxueyang: mood: wait a minute, i check it.
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2016-04-24T12:38:34Z aries_liuxueyang: mood: this is exact the reason...;-(
2016-04-24T12:38:42Z aries_liuxueyang: mood: Thank you so much!!!
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2016-04-24T12:39:36Z mood: aries_liuxueyang: np, glad it wasn't a bug or some such
2016-04-24T12:39:57Z aries_liuxueyang: it's my bad.;/
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2016-04-24T13:22:09Z phoe_krk: When I'm writing my stuff, sometimes I stumble upon something I'm too lazy to do.
2016-04-24T13:22:44Z phoe_krk: So what I do is, I leave my project for a while, end up working on a library that does what I don't want to do, incorporate that library into my bigger project and boom, it's working.
2016-04-24T13:23:04Z phoe_krk: Do you guys do something similar?
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2016-04-24T14:00:51Z beach: Good afternoon everyone!
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2016-04-24T14:10:07Z varjag: hi there
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2016-04-24T14:24:14Z papachan`: morning
2016-04-24T14:26:12Z Heranort: night
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2016-04-24T16:03:45Z indoor_jellyfish: how does one generate a #\return via a keyboard keypress?
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2016-04-24T16:54:26Z phoe_krk: This is OS-dependent AFAIK. Windows generate CRLF, Linux only LF I think.
2016-04-24T16:55:02Z jackdaniel: it's hard believe that we have to deal with this newline s**t in 2016 :D
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2016-04-24T16:56:48Z phoe_krk: 2016, people are still sending carriage returns
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2016-04-24T16:58:20Z Bike: do you have some kind of problem with me using irc from my teletype
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2016-04-24T16:59:20Z phoe_krk: I want a teletype now.
2016-04-24T16:59:58Z Bike: might be kind of fun to make one
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2016-04-24T17:05:38Z jackdaniel: dddfdaffffdsasdfasdfsdf:-)
2016-04-24T17:05:48Z jackdaniel: oy, sorry for "ddd..."
2016-04-24T17:06:08Z jackdaniel: it was meant to be just ":-)"
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2016-04-24T17:08:59Z varjag: remember to keep cr and lf keys separate
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2016-04-24T17:32:33Z H4ns: the return key sends return.  it is the unix terminal driver that converts it to a linefeed (and just that).  the behavior can be switched off by "stty -icrnl".
2016-04-24T17:33:49Z H4ns: the return key only sends cr+nl in very rare configurations (usually when using half-duplex with local echo).  all this has nothing to do with how operating systems encode line endings in their text files.
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2016-04-24T18:09:33Z p_l: phoe_krk: CRLF is actually the "proper" way, and most older network line-oriented network protocols require it
2016-04-24T18:10:09Z p_l: well, "ascii-proper" or so ;)
2016-04-24T18:10:41Z knobo1: Xach: Hello
2016-04-24T18:11:51Z knobo1: sorry. wrong person.
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2016-04-24T19:56:25Z phoe_krk: Fsck.
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2016-04-24T19:56:41Z phoe_krk: The TeX files of the standard are rather ugly inside. Really, really.
2016-04-24T19:56:48Z phoe_krk: s/standard/standard draft/
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2016-04-24T20:47:58Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: There's very few TeX source dirs I've seen of any notable size (50+ pages), that aren't horridly ugly imho.
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2016-04-24T20:50:36Z phoe_krk: jsgrant: well, yes, but there are things that look totally the same on the output file, but are done in a few different ways.
2016-04-24T20:50:39Z jsgrant: Wasn't someone in this channel trying to make somefactor of a TeX clone in CL? Vaguely remember this.
2016-04-24T20:50:47Z phoe_krk: And I have to take these into account when processing.
2016-04-24T20:50:50Z phoe_krk: Anyway - good night.
2016-04-24T20:50:54Z jsgrant: phoe_krk: o/
2016-04-24T20:51:12Z phoe_krk: \o/
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2016-04-24T21:26:31Z fouric: Lispniks: I have a question about API design.
2016-04-24T21:27:24Z fouric: I'm working on creating a Common Lisp wrapper (https://github.com/fouric/cl-termbox) for a ncurses-like library called Termbox (https://github.com/nsf/termbox).
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2016-04-24T21:28:20Z fouric: Termbox is a C library. My question is, how "Lispy" should the wrapper be? Should I just pretty much wrap the C calls in Lisp functions and leave other people to build on those primitives, or should I provide functions that have conditions, keyword arguments, etc.?
2016-04-24T21:29:37Z Bike: the latter. otherwise you're just a glorified groveler.
2016-04-24T21:29:46Z Bike: conditions especially. as you know, errno fucking sucks
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2016-04-24T21:30:24Z |3b| usually does both, raw 1:1 bindings and a nicer wrapper level
2016-04-24T21:31:14Z |3b|: though these days turning return values into conditions usually happens at the low-level layer since it is easier to just handle it with cffi than duplicate it in every single high-level wrapper
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2016-04-24T21:35:23Z fouric: |3b|! ("!" nick complete char, not yelling) Would I put them in separate packages, or separate *systems*, or how precisely would I do it?
2016-04-24T21:35:46Z fouric: (I don't know very much about packages/systems/conditions yet...)
2016-04-24T21:35:51Z |3b|: fouric: wouldn't it be easier to reconfigure your client, or just edit the ! than explain it every day?
2016-04-24T21:36:17Z |3b| usually does separate packages in a single system
2016-04-24T21:36:26Z fouric: I'm hoping that in a few weeks enough people will know about it and I won't have to explain myself.
2016-04-24T21:36:37Z fouric makes mental note that |3b| knows about it
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2016-04-24T21:36:49Z Bike: yeah, uh, good luck
2016-04-24T21:37:01Z fouric: Bike! re wrapper, or !?
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2016-04-24T21:37:17Z Bike: exclamation points
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2016-04-24T21:37:29Z |3b|: well, i guess at least you are using completion rather than misspelling people's nicks :)
2016-04-24T21:38:02Z fouric: !shrug
2016-04-24T21:38:28Z fouric: Anyway, I guess that I'm doing one system, two packages.
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2016-04-24T21:38:35Z fouric: Would it be bad form to have one file per package?
2016-04-24T21:38:47Z fouric: (the C API is small, about a dozen functions)
2016-04-24T21:39:56Z |3b|: if you don't need more, a file per package sounds reasonable
2016-04-24T21:40:20Z |3b|: some people like to break things up so they always have a package pert file
2016-04-24T21:40:26Z |3b|: *per file
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2016-04-24T21:43:56Z fouric: Thanks |3b|!
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2016-04-25T00:32:05Z zRecursive: clhs iter
2016-04-25T00:32:05Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for iter.
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2016-04-25T00:32:11Z specbot: Couldn't find anything for iterate.
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2016-04-25T02:16:47Z warweasle: I have another video for my game engine up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpDAUqmxEXo This shows me making a 2d clock, since I've only done 3D videos.
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2016-04-25T02:41:20Z jsgrant-: warweasle: Saw that within the first hour of posting, pretty neatorino.
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2016-04-25T02:42:55Z warweasle: jsgrant-: I tried to do what you asked and use it to create something. Unfortunately my first recording session crapped out after about 5 minutes.
2016-04-25T02:43:07Z warweasle: jsgrant-: So I added something to it instead.
2016-04-25T02:43:32Z jsgrant-: warweasle: That's fine, no real pressure; Or dance for my appeasement, whatever you prefer.
2016-04-25T02:43:56Z jsgrant-: Either or, it was pretty neat it almost all fit on one screen's worth.
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2016-04-25T02:45:34Z jsgrant-: warweasle: What do you use to record? I'm somewhat planning on doing semi-instructional videos eventually, and the only decent recording system I've found has been "ssr".
2016-04-25T02:46:17Z warweasle: jsgrant-: I've been talking to the other graphics devs and they really wanted to just throw stuff on screen. I compromised and made it so they can override the default functionality.
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2016-04-25T02:50:19Z jsgrant- will probably try to do a gamejam, during summer in Clinch.
2016-04-25T02:50:40Z jsgrant- does want to get into Gamedev a bit, but really hasn't messed much with it all.
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2016-04-25T03:09:19Z jsgrant-:  I'm actually a bit shocked, in that, two of some of the most interesting projects to me in CL at the moment are GameEnginey (CEPL & Clinch).
2016-04-25T03:10:15Z jsgrant-: Well, maybe not that shocked; Always found graphics programming to be pretty neat -- just kinda feel out of "gaming" as of the past few years.
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2016-04-25T03:27:59Z dreamaddict: is there a way to enable another application (or code) to send and receive raw data from the SBCL REPL?
2016-04-25T03:28:34Z Bike: sockets?
2016-04-25T03:28:48Z dreamaddict: that is it
2016-04-25T03:28:58Z dreamaddict: in fact, that is what Emacs uses, correct?
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2016-04-25T03:29:30Z Bike: emacs with slime, sure
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2016-04-25T03:29:31Z dreamaddict: really, I am working with IDLE right here doodling in Python, and I want to be able to use defmacro in my Python code
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2016-04-25T03:29:55Z Bike: i don't know how a connection with sbcl would help there
2016-04-25T03:29:58Z dreamaddict: I don't want LISP for anything other than invisibly preprocessing my source file, so that it still looks just like I am only using idle
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2016-04-25T03:31:51Z dreamaddict: maybe...if I run SBCL in the background, I can tweak the IDLE editor to send code/data to it
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2016-04-25T03:51:04Z warweasle: jsgrant-: Sorry, had this window closed: I use ffmpeg now. It doesn't crash.
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2016-04-25T09:28:48Z kami`: Hello #lisp
2016-04-25T09:29:02Z kami` is now known as kami
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2016-04-25T09:48:01Z jackdaniel: Hello @kami
2016-04-25T09:48:05Z jackdaniel: :)
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2016-04-25T09:57:25Z phoe_krk: hello everyone
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2016-04-25T09:59:14Z Yuukio: Hi
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2016-04-25T12:57:20Z mejja: amazing to see 440 users in a channel for a dead language..
2016-04-25T12:57:31Z mejja: 440 :-)
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2016-04-25T13:05:25Z Xach: 335 are bots
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2016-04-25T13:07:37Z varjag: bots are trendy nowadays
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2016-04-25T13:09:35Z theos: who you calling bot? huh?
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2016-04-25T13:10:11Z varjag: please go on
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2016-04-25T13:12:08Z mejja: is it because of your plans that you say go on?
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2016-04-25T13:14:14Z splittist: Interestingly most of the bot inhabitants of #lisp are written in php. The most advanced ones evolved from a malicious paste. The current theory is that this paste itself was made by a bot, and that, in fact, the pastebot was originally written by an early draft of wigflip.
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2016-04-25T13:15:36Z ukari: i know collen is bot writen in common lisp
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2016-04-25T13:16:00Z djh: most bots I encounter seem to be perl still.
2016-04-25T13:16:39Z kvsari: They're breeding, evolving...
2016-04-25T13:16:57Z splittist: ILTWYS "They"
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2016-04-25T13:19:31Z andrei-n: So an anonymous function cannot call itself in cl?
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2016-04-25T13:22:11Z ukari: andrei-n, what you need is y combinator
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2016-04-25T13:23:09Z Walex: as to bots, there is a nice scifi novel, "Distraction" by B Stirling, in which spam bots are programmed to pass the turing test so as to converse with targets in a convincing way, so they eventually become self aware, and start hiring contract mafia hitmen to tkae out system administrators trying to shut them down. This may yet happen with IRC bots, which have the same evolutionary pressure.
2016-04-25T13:24:01Z djh: If it means we ultimately get IRC channels filled with bots capable of generating useful, helpful responses, we can only hope :)
2016-04-25T13:24:02Z andrei-n: It's just a trick, isn't it? Some PL have a special symbol so that they can call themselves from inside...
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2016-04-25T13:25:57Z mejja: it's all smoke and mirrors
2016-04-25T13:26:07Z Walex: djh: to pass the turing test those both need only to be able to respond as the average IRC user, so don't hold your hopes too high :-).
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2016-04-25T13:26:35Z djh: Walex: Fair point :)
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2016-04-25T13:35:06Z igam: andrei-n: or manually: (let ((anonymous-function (lambda (myself x) (if (zerop x) 1 (* x (funcall myself myself (- x 1))))))) (funcall anonymous-function anonymous-function 42)) #| --> 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000 |#
2016-04-25T13:36:01Z igam: djh: the idea would be that irc bots would evolve to hire hitmens on newbies asking silly questions. I guess.
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2016-04-25T13:36:35Z ukari: andrei-n, how about label
2016-04-25T13:37:02Z igam: ukari: arguably, labels gives a name to the function, since you can use (function name) in the scope to get back the function named by labels.
2016-04-25T13:37:31Z igam: ukari: also, labels wraps the body with a (block fname …) just like defun; not lambda.
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2016-04-25T13:39:14Z ukari: i thought label is not functin name because it can use 'go'
2016-04-25T13:39:39Z igam: ukari: in CL, there's only LABELS, not LABEL.
2016-04-25T13:40:01Z ukari: igam, you are right
2016-04-25T13:40:35Z andrei-n: ukari, yeah, it's a way to do it, but looks a little dirty... And about labels I still don't know enough about them...
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2016-04-25T13:44:05Z igam: andrei-n: the point of CL is that you can define your own syntax, if you don't like LABELS, then you can write (defmacro rlambda (lambda-list &body body) (let ((anonymous (gensym))) `(labels ((anonymous ,lambda-list (flet ((myself (&rest args) (apply (function anonymous) args))) ,@body))) (function anonymous))))
2016-04-25T13:44:05Z igam:  
2016-04-25T13:44:08Z igam: and then:  (funcall  (rlambda (n) (if (zerop n) 1 (* n (myself (- n 1))))) 42)  #| --> 1405006117752879898543142606244511569936384000000000 |#
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2016-04-25T13:46:37Z andrei-n: The fact that it's not in the standard language could mean that it's not a good idea...
2016-04-25T13:46:38Z igam: Notice, there's a little defect in this rlambda: it doesn't handle the declarations and docstring properly since it moves them inside the flet body.  You can use a library function such as com.informatimago.common-lisp.lisp-sexp.source-form:parse-body to help you implement it correctly.
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2016-04-25T13:46:58Z ggole: Cleaner to bind a name, too (which allows nesting them)
2016-04-25T13:47:05Z igam: andrei-n: contrarily to other languages, CL doesn't assume it knows better than you.
2016-04-25T13:47:07Z ggole: (rlamdda name (args) ...)
2016-04-25T13:47:19Z igam: then it's not anonymous anymore :-)
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2016-04-25T13:49:42Z ggole: Anonymity isn't really a clean way to do things that have to be named (as you have to in order to make a recursive call)
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2016-04-25T13:50:10Z dlowe: you don't *have* to
2016-04-25T13:50:18Z igam: ggole: it's not really needed for recursive calls. See for example call-next-method.
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2016-04-25T13:51:57Z ggole: What does call-next-method have to do with it?
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2016-04-25T13:52:59Z igam: It calls also the same "function", with an anonymous name.
2016-04-25T13:53:18Z moore33: Uh...
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2016-04-25T13:53:49Z igam: (defmethod fact ((x (eql 0))) 1) (defmethod fact ((x integer)) (* x (call-next-method (1- x))))
2016-04-25T13:55:18Z igam: Ok, not in this case.
2016-04-25T13:55:28Z ggole: I think I see what you are driving at.
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2016-04-25T13:56:32Z Walex: the difficulty with "anonymous" is yhat any name you give it might "shadow" a name in the environment. A big deal with "dynamic" scopes.
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2016-04-25T13:57:11Z ggole: That's why explicit binding (perhaps with more convenient syntax) is a good idea
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2016-04-25T13:57:22Z dlowe: you could use a y-combinator is all I'm sayin.
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2016-04-25T13:57:35Z moore33: I suppose you could say that call-next-method supplies a sort of anonymous name, but in fact the name is supplied by defmethod.
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2016-04-25T13:58:53Z ggole: dlowe: that doesn't avoid naming, since the fixed function is passed in as an argument
2016-04-25T13:59:28Z ggole: You *could* use indices into an argument list in place of names, but that is exactly the same situation with indices instead of names and no readability.
2016-04-25T13:59:45Z dlowe: ggole: true, but in common lisp that naming is in variable namespace, not function namespace
2016-04-25T14:01:30Z ggole: Yes, but doesn't that add to the inconvenience over not using an explicit binding point?
2016-04-25T14:01:52Z ggole: s/not//
2016-04-25T14:03:23Z Walex: the the "anonymous recursive function" game is played with either reserved words/operators that cannot be used in the environment, or some form of "distinguished" namespace that needs identifying with a reserved word/operator...
2016-04-25T14:03:38Z Walex: amusingly Wikipedia has this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_recursion#Passing_functions_as_arguments
2016-04-25T14:03:56Z igam: Well, I consider that the lambda form is the _name_ of the "anonymous" function, so you can count me out of it :-)
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2016-04-25T14:06:00Z ggole: So recursive anonymous functions must contain themselves? Surely that can't work.
2016-04-25T14:06:19Z ggole: Except by #1 trickery, which can't be a good idea.
2016-04-25T14:06:35Z ggole: (Although, it might be tremendous fun for a short time.)
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2016-04-25T15:06:10Z phoe_krk: http://imgur.com/a/c99H0 <- English version and many more posters will be ready in a few days.
2016-04-25T15:06:18Z phoe_krk: I'll just leave this here.
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2016-04-25T15:18:11Z phoe_krk: drmeister: ^ I believe you have a graphic that would suit such a poster - and Clasp/CANDO *does* deserve one of its own! Could you find something that suits?
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2016-04-25T15:25:55Z Jonsky: igam: just to be sure that I understand macros correctly: is the "anonymous" inside the LABELS of the rnlambda supposed to be comma-ed?
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2016-04-25T15:35:01Z PuercoPop: andrei-n: alexandria:named-lambda is an easier way for anonymous-functions to call themselves
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2016-04-25T15:36:07Z jdz: is it just me or named-anonymous-function sounds like an oxymoron?
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2016-04-25T15:54:19Z igam: ggole: actually, that can work.  For example, you can use syntactically #=/## or ...  and let the compiler infer the semantics.
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2016-04-25T15:55:47Z phoe_krk: http://imgur.com/a/NW9fV - incfed the poster count.
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2016-04-25T15:56:29Z ggole: igam: I think cyclic cons structures would break many macros
2016-04-25T15:56:47Z ggole: If not the compiler itself.
2016-04-25T15:56:51Z igam: Jonsky: yes, you're perfectly right, all occurences of anonymous but the first must be preceded by a comma.   Without it,  it still works, but it shadows any function in the outerscope named anonymous.
2016-04-25T15:58:32Z igam: ggole: yes, this is why using a token such as ... (which is reserved for implementation specific extensions) or perhaps ⟳ if you write your own macro, would be preferable.
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2016-04-25T16:00:29Z igam: or perhaps ↺
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2016-04-25T16:01:53Z igam: No, this one: ⟲.
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2016-04-25T16:18:27Z igam: nakiya: sldb (the slime debugger) says: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314625#1
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2016-04-25T16:18:55Z igam: (:internal split-line) must be the anonymous function in split-line.
2016-04-25T16:19:17Z nakiya: yeah, I split twice - that's the problem.
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2016-04-25T16:20:24Z igam: nakiya: then mapcar:   (convert-to-float (split-line line)) --> (mapcar (function convert-to-float)  (split-line line))
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2016-04-25T16:21:18Z igam: read-line doesn't take keyword arguments, but optional arguments. So call it as (read-line stream nil)
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2016-04-25T16:21:41Z igam: or (read-line stream nil nil) which is equivalent, but shows explicitely the nil eof-value.
2016-04-25T16:22:02Z igam: then: (read-data "data.txt") --> (("Age" "Bidders" "Price") (((127) (13) (1235)) ((115) (12) (1080))))
2016-04-25T16:22:54Z igam: But there was no reason to call split-line twice. you can avoid it in convert-to-float, and avoid this mapcar I introduced.
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2016-04-25T16:24:25Z sepi: whats the ideomatic way to #'or all values from a list?
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2016-04-25T16:24:33Z igam: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314625#2
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2016-04-25T16:24:46Z igam: sepi: (some (function identity) list)
2016-04-25T16:25:12Z igam: There's no such thing as #'or, since OR is a macro.
2016-04-25T16:25:30Z nakiya: @igam: yep, works properly now. Thanks.
2016-04-25T16:25:31Z igam: (there could be a #'or, it is implementation dependant, and its meaning too).
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2016-04-25T16:26:16Z igam: nakiya: check my 2nd annotation, I use (find char #(#\space #\tab)) instead of OR CHAR=…
2016-04-25T16:26:28Z sepi: igam: cool. I was trying to used (reduce #'or but had the macro problem
2016-04-25T16:26:52Z igam: nakiya: not necessarily more efficient, but shorter to write, and scales better when more characters are to be tested ;-)
2016-04-25T16:27:01Z sepi: igam: anyways, some also does the maiing I had to do anyway so it's even shorter
2016-04-25T16:27:13Z sepi: s/maiing/mapping/
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2016-04-25T16:27:15Z igam: sepi: (reduce (lambda (a b) (or a b)) list) but this is what (some (function identity) list) does.
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2016-04-25T16:27:37Z igam: and yes, if you have a :key for reduce, you can pass it directly to some.
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2016-04-25T16:45:25Z ssice: hi, is it standards-compliant to redefine CL operators such as `LET' but on other packages?
2016-04-25T16:46:01Z ssice: i.e., is it non-portable to define (defmacro mypackage:let (varlist &body expr) ... ) ?
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2016-04-25T16:47:05Z jdz: ssice: that would not be the same as CL:LET, now would it?
2016-04-25T16:47:05Z dlowe: ssice: sure. annoying, maybe, but it's totally legit.
2016-04-25T16:47:18Z dlowe: ssice: the SERIES library does exactly that
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2016-04-25T16:49:37Z ssice: jdz: no, it would be for a DSL
2016-04-25T16:49:49Z ssice: but then clisp complains about it
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2016-04-25T16:49:57Z ssice: saying
2016-04-25T16:50:04Z ssice: *** - DEFUN/DEFMACRO: LET is a special operator and may not be redefined.
2016-04-25T16:50:23Z jdz: ssice: are you sure you shadow CL:LET?
2016-04-25T16:50:33Z dlowe: well, you have to make sure that it's defined in another package
2016-04-25T16:50:37Z jackdaniel: are you sure you are in a separate package and didn't do for instane (:use 'cl)
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2016-04-25T16:50:44Z dlowe: so, you can do that by not using cl in your package
2016-04-25T16:50:51Z dlowe: shadowing the symbol in your package
2016-04-25T16:51:10Z ssice: It is defined on another package whicih does not use CL, and which only has a couple of :import-from :cl but none of them are let, of course
2016-04-25T16:51:19Z dlowe: or explicitly using your package symbol i.e. (defmacro my-package::let ...)
2016-04-25T16:51:32Z ssice: I am not shadowing it because I am not using :cl in that package
2016-04-25T16:51:40Z dlowe: also, clisp has a lot of annoying things. Maybe this is one of them.
2016-04-25T16:51:45Z ssice: haha
2016-04-25T16:52:03Z ssice: I have two package: mypackage.impl, which imports cl; and mypackage, which does not
2016-04-25T16:52:17Z ssice: im an in (use-package :mypackage.impl) and there I (defmacro mypackage:let (...) ...)
2016-04-25T16:52:37Z ssice: I think I am doing it correctly.., am I not?
2016-04-25T16:53:09Z jackdaniel: ssice: you import from cl "let" in mypackage.impl
2016-04-25T16:53:11Z dlowe: I don't think use-package does what you think it does.
2016-04-25T16:53:15Z jackdaniel: you use mypackage.impl in mypackage
2016-04-25T16:53:23Z jackdaniel: so you have LET from CL in your mypackage
2016-04-25T16:53:29Z dlowe: you may want in-package
2016-04-25T16:53:36Z ssice: oops, sorry
2016-04-25T16:53:37Z ssice: typo
2016-04-25T16:53:45Z ssice: I thought I said in-package
2016-04-25T16:53:47Z ssice: that's right
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2016-04-25T16:56:01Z ssice: this minimal example crashes on clisp https://gist.github.com/ssaavedra/28992ec977107101cee3a6ec3af6a66c
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2016-04-25T16:56:17Z dlowe: it would be nice if you could add how it crashes
2016-04-25T16:56:30Z Bike: you don't specify the :use list for mypackage, so it defaults to something implementation-defined, which probably includes :cl
2016-04-25T16:56:37Z Bike: put in (:use)
2016-04-25T16:57:50Z ssice: Bike: you are totally right
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2016-04-25T16:58:22Z ssice: I would never have thought the default :use list would be implementation-dependant
2016-04-25T16:58:35Z Bike: yeah, it's a bit weird. so it works now?
2016-04-25T16:58:54Z ssice: yes
2016-04-25T16:58:59Z ssice: thank you so much!
2016-04-25T16:59:02Z Bike: cool
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2016-04-25T17:02:50Z jackdaniel: \o/
2016-04-25T17:03:45Z nakiya: Any way to trace a lambda?
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2016-04-25T17:04:06Z nakiya: other than refactoring into a function?
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2016-04-25T17:04:54Z jackdaniel: rather not
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2016-04-25T17:24:39Z PuercoPop: tracing depends on the implementation, Also some IDE's provide functionality like 'tracing' forms across calls, like sly-stickers
2016-04-25T17:24:48Z PuercoPop: which implementation are you using?
2016-04-25T17:25:14Z PuercoPop: ups they left already
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2016-04-25T17:34:32Z Illusional: test
2016-04-25T17:36:23Z jackdaniel: => T
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2016-04-25T17:40:43Z drmeister: phoe_krk: What is this for? Posters for ELS 2016?
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2016-04-25T17:41:51Z phoe_krk: drmeister: General Lisp propaganda posters! Yes, I plan to show them off on ELS2016.
2016-04-25T17:42:23Z phoe_krk: But later on, I intend on making extensive usage of them in all the places where people don't care/know/want to know Lisp actually *is* used anywhere with success.
2016-04-25T17:42:39Z phoe_krk: Basically: marketing.
2016-04-25T17:42:43Z drmeister: No problem.
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2016-04-25T17:43:14Z phoe_krk: So I take it you won't have any problem with the version I made, utilizing a screenshot of your Google Docs presentation?*
2016-04-25T17:43:29Z phoe_krk: *a funny thing to ask, given that I don't expect you to be able to read Polish
2016-04-25T17:43:36Z drmeister: phoe_krk: Nope - go ahead.
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2016-04-25T17:43:57Z drmeister: Well, my father and mother were born in Poland - but no - I can't read a word.
2016-04-25T17:44:01Z phoe_krk: drmeister: roger, expect me to make a tiny media storm.
2016-04-25T17:44:04Z phoe_krk: drmeister: !!!
2016-04-25T17:44:08Z phoe_krk: I didn't know that!
2016-04-25T17:44:16Z drmeister: Yes, I'm returning to the old country.
2016-04-25T17:44:23Z phoe_krk: Welcome back! :P
2016-04-25T17:44:28Z drmeister: Visiting - visiting the old country.
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2016-04-25T17:44:56Z drmeister: I'm a child of the WWII diaspora.
2016-04-25T17:45:30Z phoe_krk: Yes, I see.
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2016-04-25T18:41:49Z novemberist: hello, can anyone suggest a nice (lispy) alternative to format? (preferably on quicklisp). only thing i found so far is the out macro from ytools, but ytools seems to be outdated and is not on quicklisp.
2016-04-25T18:41:50Z warweasle: Is there a .c file in ECL which creates the main ECL executable? If so, how could I add static libraries to it.
2016-04-25T18:45:27Z jackdaniel: warweasle: ECL *main* file is libecl.so, the binary is just for a conveniance
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2016-04-25T18:46:23Z jackdaniel: warweasle: that said, main function is defined in cinit.d
2016-04-25T18:47:56Z jackdaniel: warweasle: there is an example in src/examples/embed which uses library
2016-04-25T18:48:30Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Thanks. Is there a way to set a few static libraries?
2016-04-25T18:48:53Z jackdaniel: in the mentioned example you have a Makefile
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2016-04-25T18:49:13Z jackdaniel: you may append your static object like there
2016-04-25T18:49:19Z jackdaniel: like in there°
2016-04-25T18:49:20Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Ok, and it has the same functionality as the ecl executable?
2016-04-25T18:50:13Z jackdaniel: yes, if you meet any problems let me know, or if you overcome them, please let me know :)
2016-04-25T18:50:58Z jackdaniel: warweasle: to start toplevel you'll have to do what the main function does, or something else. I have custom toplevel in EclAndroid for instance
2016-04-25T18:51:10Z jackdaniel: main() in cinit.d that is
2016-04-25T18:51:35Z warweasle: jackdaniel: So I can just copy cinit and modify that?
2016-04-25T18:51:40Z jackdaniel: you may build libecl as a static library as well btw
2016-04-25T18:51:50Z jackdaniel: warweasle: didn't try that, but in theory – of course :)
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2016-04-25T18:53:43Z jackdaniel: hm, or not. I'm not sure. cinit looks like a mere boostrapping top
2016-04-25T18:54:50Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I would like to. I took a few minutes and tried to create a binary with sdl2, bullet physics, pango, cairo, etc... I tried using the config script but I think I did it wrong.
2016-04-25T18:56:03Z jackdaniel: I think the best approach would be building with libecl as an *.so and link with these libraries
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2016-04-25T18:58:36Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, you can link using export LIBS=-lcairo -lpango
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2016-04-25T18:59:08Z fchurca: hi
2016-04-25T18:59:47Z jackdaniel: ach, right
2016-04-25T19:00:44Z warweasle: jackdaniel: That may not be the "best" way, but it will work for now. Besides, cl-cairo2 doesn't load with --with-cxx. But I am thinking about distribution.
2016-04-25T19:00:53Z jackdaniel: but as I said, you may link also only to your own binary (just add -l* to examples/embed/Makefile
2016-04-25T19:00:56Z jackdaniel: )
2016-04-25T19:01:13Z phoe_krk: hey fchurca
2016-04-25T19:01:50Z jackdaniel: hm, building ecl as an *.a should be possible by passing --disable-shared flag
2016-04-25T19:02:41Z jackdaniel: but you may encounter some headaches – I had at least – ECL doesn't have dlopen and doesn't work with FASl's well afair
2016-04-25T19:03:05Z warweasle: That does work.
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2016-04-25T19:03:48Z jackdaniel: what does work?
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2016-04-25T19:06:28Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Building the example with the static libs.
2016-04-25T19:06:40Z jackdaniel: warweasle: sorry, cinit is ecl_min, final ecl executable is built from src/compile.lsp.in (compiler:build-program …)
2016-04-25T19:06:48Z jackdaniel: warweasle: great :-)
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2016-04-25T19:08:05Z jackdaniel: if you want a toplevel, you may call "(si::top-level t)"
2016-04-25T19:08:19Z jackdaniel: in such an embedded setup that is
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2016-04-25T19:13:23Z warweasle: jackdaniel: This is all long term but I'd like to know if it's possible. It looks like it is...with the exception of the C++ error which should be easy to fix.
2016-04-25T19:13:29Z warweasle: It's just beyond me.
2016-04-25T19:13:57Z jackdaniel: but what is possible?
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2016-04-25T19:15:31Z jackdaniel: building ECL with cxx and linking with system libraries?
2016-04-25T19:17:29Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Yes.
2016-04-25T19:18:02Z jackdaniel: yes, I believe so. Note, that bdwgc, gmp and libffi are all written in C, but ECL works with them
2016-04-25T19:18:08Z jackdaniel: even when built --with-cxx
2016-04-25T19:18:40Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I'll try to write a tutorial for that for the next ecl quarterly (and put it in the doc)
2016-04-25T19:18:54Z jackdaniel: I believe that the next issue should be before the ELS (or short after)
2016-04-25T19:19:13Z jackdaniel: (I don't know the exact steps, so I can't give you a recipe right away)
2016-04-25T19:19:24Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I can use it to run clinch, then I can build native C/C++ code with ecl, eventually moving the "engine" portion to C/C++ with a C interface.
2016-04-25T19:20:04Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Also, I can use that for a variety of projects. Am I explaining the idea well enough?
2016-04-25T19:21:06Z jackdaniel: basically you want to create CL + C/C++ libraries system and compile it to the standalone executable or library with a C API?
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2016-04-25T19:21:51Z jackdaniel: (sorry if I don't process properly, it's late here :)
2016-04-25T19:22:53Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I want to take lisp code, and using ecl's cool ablity to compile and use C++ code, move working functions from lisp to C++.
2016-04-25T19:23:01Z warweasle: jackdaniel: For iterative development.
2016-04-25T19:25:23Z jurov: warweasle: to do that, you don't need to statically link ECL
2016-04-25T19:27:28Z warweasle: So I could get my main loop working in lisp. Then I can use the in-line C abilities.
2016-04-25T19:27:40Z jackdaniel: ecl may produce shared and static libraries without rebuilding ecl at all. I'm sorry, but I don't exaclty get your use-case.
2016-04-25T19:27:52Z warweasle: jurov: Oh, that's a separate thing. The physics library prefers static linking.
2016-04-25T19:28:22Z jackdaniel: warweasle: you can call any C/C++ function from your CL image, yes, that's possible
2016-04-25T19:28:32Z jurov: warweasle: yes, You initialize ECL from C code, and then you can for example spawn SLIME in a thread
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2016-04-25T19:28:55Z jurov: and do everything including Lisp->C compilations from there
2016-04-25T19:29:47Z warweasle: jackdaniel: This way I can reduce functions from lisp->C++. Eventually rolling most of the engine into a CFFI friendly library.
2016-04-25T19:30:16Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re67.html
2016-04-25T19:30:20Z warweasle: jackdaniel: If I ever make a game worth distributing.
2016-04-25T19:30:25Z jackdaniel: note that you need to compile lisp function "cos"
2016-04-25T19:30:34Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Exactly!
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2016-04-25T19:31:05Z jackdaniel: there is some syntactic sugar over that, give me a second
2016-04-25T19:31:22Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, yes. It's very nice. I've used it before.
2016-04-25T19:31:37Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/quarterly/volume2.html#orgheadline11
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2016-04-25T19:32:16Z warweasle: jackdaniel: It's just a new development pipeline. Or new to me. It might renew my superstar status at work as well.
2016-04-25T19:32:58Z jackdaniel: yeah, I'm developing C with ECL sometimes too :)
2016-04-25T19:33:11Z warweasle: jackdaniel: c-progn is new.
2016-04-25T19:33:56Z jackdaniel: yes, it let's you mix lisp and c/c++
2016-04-25T19:35:27Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I should also be able to access the libraries ECL normally uses, like libgc. Then I can init a full gc at that level. (Just an example. Would not need to do this.)
2016-04-25T19:36:07Z jackdaniel: well, libgc is part of the process image, so yes
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2016-04-25T19:36:29Z jurov: imo the gc is the most troublesome part, I keep running into problems with it
2016-04-25T19:37:01Z jackdaniel: jurov: I'd be great if you could post these on the bugtracker
2016-04-25T19:37:08Z jackdaniel: when you encounter some
2016-04-25T19:37:30Z jurov: but it's not tractable. it's basically some black box that supposedly traverses the stack and whatnot
2016-04-25T19:37:39Z jackdaniel: ouch
2016-04-25T19:37:54Z jurov: ending up with completely wiped stack occassionally
2016-04-25T19:38:05Z jackdaniel: sounds awful indeed
2016-04-25T19:38:13Z jackdaniel: I ought to go sleep, I need to get up early
2016-04-25T19:39:07Z jackdaniel: warweasle: if you have some questions, please leave them on query or send it at my e-mail – I'll try to answer best I can. Or even better, you may write to the mailinglist
2016-04-25T19:39:10Z jurov: perhaps merely including ecl/ecl.h replaces malloc with GC-enabled functions and causes havoc with code that doesn't expect it.. but it's not even clear to me
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2016-04-25T19:40:14Z jackdaniel: jurov: could you post an issue anyway? (with some description and your suspicions) – I'll try to investigate that
2016-04-25T19:40:29Z jackdaniel: good night all o/
2016-04-25T19:40:39Z jurov: goodnight
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2016-04-25T19:43:08Z warweasle: jurov: Thanks for the help
2016-04-25T19:43:15Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I mean thanks for the help
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2016-04-25T22:50:37Z akkad: hmm clx sbcl only?
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2016-04-25T22:53:04Z akkad: ahh no, just a bad version check
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2016-04-26T00:02:25Z aeth: What's the proper way to have a very modular system? If I put them all in one file, Quicklisp only recognizes them when I first load the main project. If I don't, it seems odd having potentially a dozen or more .asd files, all < 25 lines (sometimes considerably so)
2016-04-26T00:03:08Z aeth: Actually, well over a dozen when it's complete.
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2016-04-26T00:06:21Z Bike: iirc stump used to just load files, but it got harrowing enough that there's an asd for each module anyway
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2016-04-26T00:09:06Z aeth: Afaik, there's no way for me to get around having a ton of asdf systems, just because of how the game engine works. e.g. all the OpenGL code needs to be in its own thing afaik so I can have both a cl-opengl and a cl-vulkan backend (when the latter is ready).
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2016-04-26T00:09:41Z aeth: It's similar with cl-sdl2. None of these libraries are high level enough for me to not have to wrap them to put them in a backend.
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2016-04-26T00:11:03Z aeth: It looks like mcclim puts all its backend stuff like clim-clx in mcclim.asd
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2016-04-26T00:12:37Z jsgrant: Bike: Harrowing in what way? I don't really see the point of it, since they really aren't going to be used outside of Stmupwm (and maybe Paulownia).
2016-04-26T00:12:48Z jsgrant: Though I don't*
2016-04-26T00:13:06Z Bike: dunno, i haven't used stump in a while. maybe relative pathname kinda shit, or sometimes wanting multiple files.
2016-04-26T00:14:36Z PuercoPop: aeth: http://davazp.net/2014/11/26/modern-library-with-asdf-and-package-inferred-system.html
2016-04-26T00:14:36Z jsgrant still doesn't get why he had to make a lazy "load-modules.lisp" file ... because setting a contrib dir outside of the default /usr/share/xyz doesn't seem to find said modules.
2016-04-26T00:14:56Z PuercoPop: ASDF can deduce the systems for you if you abide to its contrainst
2016-04-26T00:15:03Z jsgrant: Such an ugly hack and not enough time/energy to look into what's happening.
2016-04-26T00:15:06Z PuercoPop: *constraints
2016-04-26T00:15:38Z jsgrant: Bike: What graphical environment are you using, currently?
2016-04-26T00:15:55Z Bike: lxde
2016-04-26T00:16:10Z Bike: not that i switched for any particular reason, it's a different computer
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2016-04-26T00:18:40Z jsgrant: Ah. I'm running Stumpwm on both my main boxes (laptop and desktop), atm, and plan to jump ship to Paulownia when it's "good enough^tm". Only other box in my main rotation is a headless Fedora homeserver. Always like to hear people's workflow preferences though.
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2016-04-26T00:25:47Z zRecursive: clhs the
2016-04-26T00:25:47Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_the.htm
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2016-04-26T00:32:57Z akkad: lispworks seems popular here
2016-04-26T00:33:18Z aeth: akkad: that's the hyperspec that's being linked to
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2016-04-26T00:34:18Z aeth: It's the main form of CL documentation and it has been barely updated since 1996. It looks straight out of the 90s. (Strangely, the rest of the LispWorks website looks like it was recently redesigned).
2016-04-26T00:34:19Z zRecursive: Now i use #'nth and #'remove to pick and remove an element from a given list, can i do it only using one step ?
2016-04-26T00:34:42Z Bike: "step"?
2016-04-26T00:35:01Z zRecursive: just calling one function ?
2016-04-26T00:35:06Z Zhivago: Destructive or non-destructive?
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2016-04-26T00:35:21Z zRecursive: destructive
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2016-04-26T00:37:37Z zRecursive: i.e. to get 6 from '(1 2 7 33 6 51), and list will be '(1 2 7 33 51)
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2016-04-26T00:38:07Z Zhivago: This is a somewhat tricky task due to handling the first element.
2016-04-26T00:38:21Z Zhivago: But you can write a trivial function (or macro) to do it.
2016-04-26T00:38:42Z Zhivago: Just check if the head matches, and if so return the tail.
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2016-04-26T00:39:15Z Zhivago: Otherwise iterate forward until the second element matches or you run out.
2016-04-26T00:39:29Z Zhivago: If you find a match, replace the rest of the list with the rest of the rest of the list.
2016-04-26T00:39:33Z zRecursive: seems a bit harder
2016-04-26T00:40:04Z Zhivago: Well, it avoids iterating twice. If you don't care about that, then use your current appraoch.
2016-04-26T00:40:32Z zRecursive: yeah, the current approach works indeed.
2016-04-26T00:40:39Z aeth: PuercoPop: Thanks, but I don't think I can use that method because there is more than one potential backend. e.g. If your game uses cl-vulkan, you shouldn't have to load the cl-opengl wrapper stuff.
2016-04-26T00:41:02Z aeth: (This is all theoretical at the moment, cl-vulkan isn't out yet, and it will probably take months to write a usable renderer on top of it.)
2016-04-26T00:42:39Z jsgrant: vuclkan*
2016-04-26T00:43:10Z jsgrant: You aren't living, until you force puns into places others dare not go.
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2016-04-26T00:49:48Z warweasle: jsgrant: Dream the impossible dream.
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2016-04-26T00:59:50Z jsgrant: warweasle: Quixclote
2016-04-26T01:00:00Z jsgrant: Clon QuixCLote.
2016-04-26T01:00:12Z warweasle: jsgrant: (defpackage :windmills ...
2016-04-26T01:00:25Z akkad: Son Molinos
2016-04-26T01:00:32Z jsgrant: warweasle:  giants*
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2016-04-26T01:01:06Z warweasle: And warweasle's brains, if he had any, would have been baked by the sun.
2016-04-26T01:02:25Z jsgrant: Anyone using Coleslaw in here? Trying to set up a basic blog ... and not sure if there is supposed to be a theme that ships with it, currently just getting basic HTML.
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2016-04-26T01:04:33Z jsgrant: The readme says it ships with support for "hyde" and "readable", but when I try to set one of those -- just plain html.
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2016-04-26T01:18:12Z jsgrant: I'm sure there is some configuration issue going, on, too zonked to care anymore at this point. :^P
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2016-04-26T02:52:01Z akkad: is there a way to list the slots of a given object?
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2016-04-26T02:56:39Z warweasle: akkad: There has to be, since slime does it. I don't know how, but it does...
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2016-04-26T03:13:39Z pillton: mop compute-slots
2016-04-26T03:13:39Z specbot: http://metamodular.com/CLOS-MOP/compute-slots.html
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2016-04-26T03:17:11Z Bike: the example for "Instance Structure Protocol" there is kind of neat.
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2016-04-26T03:30:48Z pillton: There is a bug. We will have to tell beach.
2016-04-26T03:31:24Z pillton: One of the (slot-definition-name a) forms should be (slot-definition-name b).
2016-04-26T03:33:26Z Bike: huh, it's not in the alu's version. wonder where it's cpd from
2016-04-26T03:34:05Z pillton: I didn't know about standard-instance-access. That is cool.
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2016-04-26T03:35:53Z pillton: I think beach did a page a day for a X days.
2016-04-26T03:36:03Z pillton: He must have typed it by hand.
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2016-04-26T03:41:02Z loke: pillton: The documentation doesn't say that STANDARD-INSTANCE-ACCESS is SETF'able, but SBCL supports it at least.
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2016-04-26T03:41:59Z Bike: yeah, that should definitely be an accessor.
2016-04-26T03:42:20Z pillton ponders naming projects using UUIDs.
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2016-04-26T03:43:04Z loke: pillton: You do that. Sounds like a fantasic idea :-)
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2016-04-26T03:44:48Z loke: Works on ABCL too
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2016-04-26T04:06:34Z groovy2shoes: I know this channel is technically on Common Lisp, but is discussion of the Lisp family in general and other dialects okay, too?  is there a more appropriate channel for that?
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2016-04-26T04:08:15Z PuercoPop: aeth: There are feature expressions in dependencies. Before discarding package-inferred systems, I would investigate how they behave when an asd file with the would be inferred system would be found
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2016-04-26T04:11:45Z groovy2shoes: in particular, I'm wondering if anyone here knows anything about EuLisp and/or Le_Lisp, and neither of them seem to have channels (most likely because no one really uses them anymore...)
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2016-04-26T04:12:37Z Bike: there's ##lisp
2016-04-26T04:12:41Z Zhivago: Somewhat of them.
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2016-04-26T04:12:52Z Zhivago: I don't think they're much in use, even in comparison to CL.
2016-04-26T04:12:58Z Bike: i, for one, know shit-all, but someone else might, or maybe there's stuff on softwarepreservation.org or whatevs
2016-04-26T04:13:28Z groovy2shoes: Bike, thanks :)
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2016-04-26T04:17:35Z PuercoPop: jsgrant: what is the issue you are running into with coleslaw themes? Can I you paste your config?
2016-04-26T04:19:28Z emaczen: What is a #7703 reader macro?
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2016-04-26T04:31:20Z PuercoPop: Is destructuring on nil in a with clause part a conforming program? That is (loop :with (a b) := nil ...)
2016-04-26T04:31:42Z PuercoPop: with (multiple-value-list nil) it works on SBCL but fails on CCL
2016-04-26T04:31:58Z pillton: That should be conforming.
2016-04-26T04:32:34Z PuercoPop: so it is a CCL bug?
2016-04-26T04:32:49Z pillton: It works for me on CCL.
2016-04-26T04:33:24Z White_Flame: what's the failure?
2016-04-26T04:34:30Z PuercoPop: simple program error
2016-04-26T04:34:32Z PuercoPop: try this
2016-04-26T04:34:57Z pillton: Use paste.lisp.org.
2016-04-26T04:36:14Z PuercoPop: http://paste.lisp.org/+6QT2
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2016-04-26T04:36:58Z H4ns: PuercoPop: (nil) is not the same as nil
2016-04-26T04:37:34Z PuercoPop: (I found the problem in the new completion code of sly, which I'm rewriting to using m-v-b outside of the loop)
2016-04-26T04:37:53Z pillton: It still should be conforming though.
2016-04-26T04:40:12Z pillton: clhs 6.1.1.7
2016-04-26T04:40:12Z specbot: Destructuring: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_aag.htm
2016-04-26T04:40:43Z pillton: " If there are more variables in the variable list than there are values in the values list, the remaining variables are given a value of nil."
2016-04-26T04:40:45Z PuercoPop: H4ns: With (values) it errors out as well. Although thanks for reminding me
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2016-04-26T04:44:27Z PuercoPop: pillton: thanks, that makes it clear. I'll send an email to the ccl ml after I'm done with this PR
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2016-04-26T04:45:44Z pillton: Send it to CMUCL too.
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2016-04-26T04:48:33Z PuercoPop: present in CMUCL as well? I'm curious do you use CMUCL pillton?
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2016-04-26T04:50:55Z H4ns: interesting.  (loop with (a b) = '(1) return (list a b)) => (1 nil)
2016-04-26T04:51:56Z H4ns: (in ccl).  dressing loop clauses as keywords seems to be causing the issue
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2016-04-26T04:53:19Z Bike: that exact text doesn't work in my ccl, and i don't think it's that old...
2016-04-26T04:53:35Z H4ns: damn, wrong repl.
2016-04-26T04:53:41Z H4ns: i rest my case.  it was sbcl
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2016-04-26T04:59:52Z pillton: PuercoPop: Yep. I have a function slime-with-random-implementation.
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2016-04-26T05:07:20Z PuercoPop: pillton: so you just ran slime each time with a different implementation to ensure you write conforming code? I wanted to ask what were the advantages and disadvantes of CMUCL compared to other lisp implementations. AFAIK they ship with more libraries 'built in' (like clx for example)
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2016-04-26T05:10:30Z pillton: I do it to write conforming code. Some implementations warn about different things too.
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2016-04-26T05:14:55Z PuercoPop: nice
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2016-04-26T05:16:43Z pillton: CMUCL also has an interpreter and a compiler. It is a good implementation to check software that needs to use COMPILE.
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2016-04-26T05:17:23Z zRecursive: pillton: Does CMUCL compile to native code ?
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2016-04-26T05:17:31Z pillton: Yes.
2016-04-26T05:17:50Z zRecursive: IIRC, sbcl is from CMUCL ?
2016-04-26T05:18:26Z pillton: Yes. http://sbcl.org/history.html
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2016-04-26T05:19:23Z zRecursive i am using SBCL now as it seems to be the most actively developed impl.
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2016-04-26T05:22:36Z PuercoPop: pillton: doesn't SBCL also have an interpreter and a compiler?
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2016-04-26T05:22:52Z Zhivago: For some very, very small sense of interpreter.
2016-04-26T05:23:00Z Zhivago: I think it has a function caller.
2016-04-26T05:23:08Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: even the new fast-eval?
2016-04-26T05:23:19Z Zhivago: And anything more complex than a function call gets compiled.
2016-04-26T05:23:30Z Zhivago: Perhaps I'm out of date.
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2016-04-26T05:24:24Z pillton gives up on UUIDs.
2016-04-26T05:26:54Z PuercoPop: Zhivago: well fast eval is brand new in lisp time, got merged less than 6 months ago, but I'm not keen on its implementation. What do you mean about the previous interpreter being a function caller?
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2016-04-26T05:27:01Z zRecursive: At least, SBCL can run on Windows, but CMUCL cannot.
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2016-04-26T05:29:18Z Zhivago: There was support for dynamic function calls from the REPL, everything else had an implicit compile wrapped around it, iirc.
2016-04-26T05:30:05Z Bike: there was an old evaluator too, that had a few special operators and such. don't think anybody much liked it though.
2016-04-26T05:30:20Z p_l: didn't the old evaluator (from CMUCL) bitrot?
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2016-04-26T06:28:02Z drmeister: What's the overhead in a CFFI call?  Is it two calls?  One to call the CFFI wrapper and then it calls the C function?
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2016-04-26T06:33:07Z drmeister: Ugh - it's late here - I better get off to bed.  Good night.  I'll check the logs if anyone has thoughts on my question.
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2016-04-26T07:15:02Z Xof: Zhivago: you are a bit out of date; sbcl has two full interpreters (one "pure", one minimally-compiling)
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2016-04-26T07:15:33Z Xof: the CMUCL IR1 interpreter was horrifically buggy and got deleted about a decade ago
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2016-04-26T07:16:10Z Xof: (from SBCL, that is, not from CMUCL; I think it probably got bug fixes in CMUCL)
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2016-04-26T10:51:24Z razieliyo: this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314710
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2016-04-26T10:52:06Z razieliyo: I'm trying to return the formatted string; afaik, it's a stream, so I don't know if that's what making it return nil
2016-04-26T10:52:16Z jdz: get rid of the S variable, and use NIL with format
2016-04-26T10:52:17Z razieliyo: s is a stream I meant
2016-04-26T10:52:37Z razieliyo: jdz, ok, thank you! got stuck with this a while
2016-04-26T10:52:40Z jdz: in your code s is not a stream, it's NIL
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2016-04-26T10:53:13Z jdz: if you want a stream, use WITH-OUTPUT-TO-STRING
2016-04-26T10:53:41Z razieliyo: it's ok by now with this, but thanks!
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2016-04-26T13:22:28Z sepi: How can I write a function that generates an html tag for use in cl-markup? (markup (fun)) with (defun fun () `(:p "test")) generates <fun/> instead of <p>test</p>.
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2016-04-26T13:25:07Z sepi: Or do I need to use a macro?
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2016-04-26T13:43:58Z sepi: is it even possible to generate tags at all like this?
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2016-04-26T13:51:53Z dlowe: maybe you should look at the source of cl-markup to see how they define html tags
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2016-04-26T13:53:50Z TMA: sepi: have you tried: (defun fun () (markup (:p "test"))) ?
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2016-04-26T13:55:28Z _death: maybe you should use a library that better supports such composability
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2016-04-26T14:17:23Z igam: (add-nickname :com.informatimago.common-lisp.html-generator.html :<)   (defun fun () (<:p () (<:pcdata "hello world")))    (<:with-html-output () (fun)) ; prints <p>hello world</p>
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2016-04-26T14:20:20Z igam: sepi: see: https://gitlab.com/com-informatimago/com-informatimago/blob/master/common-lisp/html-generator/html-generators-in-lisp.txt
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2016-04-26T14:28:21Z drmeister: Xof: sbcl has two interpreters?  The "pure" one - does it walk S-expressions?
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2016-04-26T14:54:51Z troydm: TIL that there was Portable Standard Lisp dialect alongside Common Lisp before Scheme
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2016-04-26T14:55:59Z moore33: Scheme predates Common Lisp...
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2016-04-26T15:04:38Z scymtym: drmeister: the new interpreter, "fasteval", does as little work upfront as possible. it delays walking and macroexpanding individual forms until they are actually evaluated. see https://github.com/sbcl/sbcl/tree/master/src/interpreter
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2016-04-26T15:08:55Z drmeister: scymtym: Is the author Doug Katzman at Google?
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2016-04-26T15:09:35Z scymtym: drmeister: i think he is the sole author, yes
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2016-04-26T15:10:12Z drmeister: *Click*  Ok, I talked with him about this last year.
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2016-04-26T15:12:57Z drmeister: Implementing this LTO thing is going to require some fancy code generation.
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2016-04-26T15:13:58Z drmeister: I can't use the google pump stuff I am using now.  It only works because I can wrap function pointers in instances of template classes.
2016-04-26T15:14:13Z drmeister: Function pointers are old school - they are speed bumps.
2016-04-26T15:14:48Z sepi: TMA: The thing is that when I use a function inside a tag , it works but not to generate a tag on its own.
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2016-04-26T15:15:47Z drmeister: sepi: Hello - What is does TMA stand for?   What do you mean "use a function inside a tag"?
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2016-04-26T15:16:24Z sepi: drmeister: there is a user called TMA
2016-04-26T15:16:28Z drmeister: Oh wait, I thought I was in #clasp
2016-04-26T15:16:35Z drmeister: Sorry - wrong channel :-)
2016-04-26T15:17:00Z sepi: :)
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2016-04-26T15:29:58Z Xof: drmeister: broadly, yes
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2016-04-26T15:31:06Z drmeister: Xof: Thanks - I talked to Doug a year ago and he was telling me about this interpreter.  I need to dig into it.   I'm interested in techniques to make my interpreter (written in C++) faster because I'm trying to reduce bootstrapping build time.
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2016-04-26T15:32:18Z drmeister: On another topic (I'm bouncing around ideas).
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2016-04-26T15:33:09Z drmeister: Does anyone have a pointer to code that would let me generate text that includes text generated by CL code?
2016-04-26T15:33:36Z drmeister: I need to generate a lot of C++ code programmatically.
2016-04-26T15:34:36Z drmeister: This code would follow a template.   I'm looking for something like a reader macro #{ void foo ( #[(cl-code-to-generate-argument-list-as-string)] ); #}
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2016-04-26T15:35:24Z drmeister: My guess is somebody has an elegant solution to this.  For generating HTML or C or whatever.
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2016-04-26T15:36:18Z drmeister: My little snippet above would generate: "void foo ( int a0, int a1, int a2 );"
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2016-04-26T15:37:17Z drmeister: Where (cl-code-to-generate-argument-list-as-string) is a CL function that returns "int a0, int a1, int a2)".
2016-04-26T15:37:32Z drmeister: Where (cl-code-to-generate-argument-list-as-string) is a CL function that returns "int a0, int a1, int a2".
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2016-04-26T15:39:03Z drmeister: #{ ... #}  and #[ ... #] would be recursive and switch between generating template code and evaluating common lisp code in the current environment.
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2016-04-26T15:42:46Z sepi: _death: what would you recommend?
2016-04-26T15:42:54Z TMA: drmeister: the reader macro could be trivial, actually
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2016-04-26T15:48:34Z Bike: drmeister: http://weitz.de/cl-interpol/ ?
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2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: anunnaki hydraz quasisan1 John[Lisbeth] Tristam arpunk hitecnologys cross M-Illandan kini nisstyre_ SAL9000 larme1 gko andrei-n salva easye rtoym gabot Oladon eli` sigjuice fluter aeth gigetoo joachifm bounb hiyosi gluytium layika_ holly lnostdal Posterdati minion specbot free-store chu cmpitg Illusional el-mikl jchmrt Zotan brkr troydm clog adjivas mathrick dwynwen_ddlleyw spacebat vlnx whartung Oddity asedeno Neet fUD zkat cyberlard CompanionCube neuri8
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2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: Zhivago cods benny aerique zaquest downtime ramus p_l itscaleb justinmcp cromulent knobo pok axion nightfly fouric rotty forgot zickzackv ck_ ec\ nicdev em briankrent luis tokik constantinexvi Thulsadum lispyone jurov Firedancer mj12`_ mood oskarth Colleen p_l|back1p White_Flame SHODAN NhanH splittist gz__ XachX_ reb watersoul Cthulhux cpt_nemo mrSpec keix cell replcated trinitr0n mordocai ecraven joga bsima thijso misv sytse thomas antoszka djh russell--
2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: tokenrove cyraxjoe hratsimihah eagleflo yeltzooo SilentEcho lxpz honkfestival AeroNotix low-profile Ober dim opus otwieracz SlashLife o`connor lancetw kalzz Guest74977 lpaste sfa dxtr lieven ircbrowse Mandus RazWelles jackc-_ drforr1 Fleurety sellout creat dvio_ H4ns omilu drmeister bgs100 billstclair banjiewen |3b| sepi gendl pootler_ fewdea_ kjeldahl pillton CIA wooden__ vert2 Tordek DrCode [iM nhandler detergnet anachrome jasom viaken TMA _death
2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: ggherdov wyan tobel shwouchkster gensym tiago ozzloy copec drot tristero isoraqathedh zymurgy samebchase fitzsim wolf_moz- taij33n djinni` brucem PuercoPop l1x arrsim swflint j_king ferada tessier heddwch tmokros Kaisyu oGMo dsp- yang Fade eschulte nprorepti sulky__ d4gg4d danieli someone aap mnoonan vsync musegarden4 Blkt fe[nl]ix nopf tanuzzo ivan4th foom marsjaninzmarsa john-mcaleely __main__ abbe gbyers rvirding Meow-J phoe_krk TeMPOraL arrdem snits_
2016-04-26T16:00:42Z names: jackdaniel Xach jsnell NaNDude ThePhoeron_ ``Erik mingus``` GGMethos cmatei flip214 zerac ski funnel ssake dan64 kbtr shifty trn wizzo z0d Intensity eMBee renard_ gypsydave5 Zacketh joast krypt octo- stux|RC-only housel ft qlkzy bcoburn moredhel tomaw
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2016-04-26T16:03:47Z drewc: drmeister: What is the difference between your form and (format nil "void foo ( ~A );" (cl-code-to-generate-argument-list-as-string)) ? why do you need two dispatch macros to make it three characters shorter, and is it worth it? Why not just CONCATENATE and be done with it?
2016-04-26T16:04:21Z drmeister: drew: My example is tiny.
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2016-04-26T16:04:47Z jdz: drmeister: i remember a good presentation in ELS2014 about generating C-like code from CL
2016-04-26T16:04:50Z drmeister: I need to generate things like this:
2016-04-26T16:04:52Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/AU7M3zHt/
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2016-04-26T16:06:27Z drewc: drmeister: Ok, let me rephrase my question: Why is FORMAT or CONCATENATE not enough that you need reader macros?
2016-04-26T16:06:57Z nakiya: Is it a bad idea/practice to use let* and do lots of calculations that depend on the preceding values inside the variable section instead of the body?
2016-04-26T16:07:12Z drmeister: drew: I can certainly do it with FORMAT and CONCATENATE but the code is going to get big and complicated fast.
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2016-04-26T16:08:18Z ggole: nakiya: that's pretty much the use case for let*
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2016-04-26T16:08:42Z jdz: drmeister: i think it was "Defmacro for C: Lightweight, Ad Hoc Code Generation" (http://www.european-lisp-symposium.org/editions/2014/)
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2016-04-26T16:10:03Z drewc: drmeister: your code posted code is only three characters shorter ... that is for every case. The NIL is to much to type and (defun C++ (&rest code) (concatenate 'string code)) is not enough? What is the motivation behind the reader macro?
2016-04-26T16:10:15Z jackdaniel: drmeister: ecl's cmp uses some specialized functions for code generation
2016-04-26T16:10:22Z jackdaniel: their's prefix is wl-*
2016-04-26T16:10:26Z jackdaniel: in src/cmp/
2016-04-26T16:11:26Z jackdaniel: drmeister: not wl, but wt
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2016-04-26T16:12:15Z drewc wants to know the motivation simply to know if a reader macro is the right choice, as a normal function seems to do the right thing, and #. exists to make it read time.
2016-04-26T16:13:12Z drewc: Yerba Mate time, then I either won't care or the right answer will present itself! :)
2016-04-26T16:13:16Z drmeister: drewc: It's not a big deal.  I thought the reader macro would let me insert C++ code directly into the CL code and switch the reader for case sensitivity.  Then I thought another reader macro #[ would switch back to CL.
2016-04-26T16:13:21Z jackdaniel: drewc: if you're fine with evaluation rules and syntax, go with functions, if you want to modify evaluation rule, use macro, if you wnat to change a syntax and evaluation, go with reader macros
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2016-04-26T16:16:01Z drewc: jackdaniel: Not my motivation at the stand here. I know what my code is fine with, but drmeister has a very very different case. Hence my questioning. Sorry if my questioning was not clear.
2016-04-26T16:16:30Z jackdaniel: right, sorry, misunderstood you (totally mb)
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2016-04-26T16:19:23Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I remember there was an ecl example where you compile all your required packages together for distribution. Do you know where that is?
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2016-04-26T16:20:34Z drewc: drmeister: well, once you are inside the first read macro, you do not need to define a second as your are now reading c++ syntax with a "go back to lisp" form. Do you have a readtable the reads everything as a string save for #[ dispatch?
2016-04-26T16:20:49Z drewc: s/your/you're
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2016-04-26T16:22:49Z drmeister: I haven't written anything - I'm looking for examples and directions where other people have solved this problem already.  I figured it was a fairly common problem with many solutions.    I just put up my pseudo-code to illustrate what I was looking for.
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2016-04-26T16:23:11Z drmeister: It wasn't very well thought out or anything.
2016-04-26T16:23:26Z drmeister: It's cool though.  stassats gave me something that looks pretty much like what I wanted.
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2016-04-26T16:25:37Z drewc: drmeister: Well, in that case .... I should have read the logs first! :)
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2016-04-26T16:25:54Z drmeister: No worries.
2016-04-26T16:26:23Z drewc just got here, sorry for any confusion displayed :P
2016-04-26T16:27:21Z ssice: Is there a way that I can "destructure" a list into variables, as with multiple-value-bind but for lists instead of values?
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2016-04-26T16:27:39Z ssice: i.e., equiv. to haskell or python's [a, b] = [1, 2]
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2016-04-26T16:29:56Z ssice: ssice: destructuring-bind is the function I was looking for
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2016-04-26T16:30:19Z ssice was just thinking out loud, it seems
2016-04-26T16:30:38Z jdz: clhs destructuring-bind
2016-04-26T16:30:38Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_destru.htm
2016-04-26T16:30:48Z jdz: right
2016-04-26T16:31:09Z jackdaniel: warweasle: maybe examples/asdf
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2016-04-26T16:31:23Z jackdaniel: https://common-lisp.net/project/ecl/manual/re55.html
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2016-04-26T16:32:59Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Oh, does build-executable already make a single standalone file?
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2016-04-26T16:33:40Z jackdaniel: yes, that's what I think
2016-04-26T16:33:48Z jackdaniel: you may want to pass :monolithic t
2016-04-26T16:33:55Z jackdaniel: to the function
2016-04-26T16:34:06Z jackdaniel: :type :program :monolithic t
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2016-04-26T16:35:12Z jackdaniel: you may pass ld-flags there and other things
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2016-04-26T16:44:01Z razieliyo: is it possible to iterate over a hashmap through an integer index? so that I can fetch the first, second, third, etc element of the hash
2016-04-26T16:44:42Z razieliyo: I'm doing it this way instead of using lists because lists doesn't have its items labeled, but with a hash you can do it by the key
2016-04-26T16:45:22Z razieliyo: I was  using also defstruct, but it seems there's no possible way to fetch items by index
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2016-04-26T16:45:46Z ggole: Hash tables aren't ordered. They don't have first, second, etc elements.
2016-04-26T16:45:58Z razieliyo: okay, thanks ggole
2016-04-26T16:46:09Z ggole: (Well, some varieties keep insertion order.)
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2016-04-26T16:54:52Z jdz: razieliyo: have you considered using association lists?
2016-04-26T16:55:14Z razieliyo: jdz, hmmm didn't remember about those, I'll check, thanks!
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2016-04-26T17:10:00Z jasom: razieliyo: you can loop over all elements in a hash, and you can even invent an integer index for it; the index just has no intrinsic meaning (and the mapping from integer index to key/value pair may change).
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2016-04-26T17:10:22Z jackdaniel: warweasle: note, that such build will still depend on libecl.so . Building with libecl.a should be doable though
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2016-04-26T17:12:20Z warweasle: jackdaniel: I'm thinking about distribution after the gamejam. I would really like my rl friends...ok friend, to play it.
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2016-04-26T17:13:55Z jasom: razieliyo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314736 <-- example of looping over a hash table
2016-04-26T17:14:49Z jasom: razieliyo: also, if you want to access things by index, have you considered a vector?
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2016-04-26T17:18:38Z razieliyo: jasom, I would like to keep some kind of labeling into each cell, so that I can name them, I think that's not possible with a vector
2016-04-26T17:21:14Z jasom: razieliyo: if you aren't going to look them up by name (or don't care if looking up by name is slow) then just store a vector of key/value pairs
2016-04-26T17:21:56Z jasom: example: #(('key1 . 'value1))
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2016-04-26T17:22:35Z jasom: then iterate with: for (key . value) on my-vector
2016-04-26T17:23:01Z jasom: I mean
2016-04-26T17:23:05Z Bicyclidine: you don't want those quotes
2016-04-26T17:23:06Z jasom: then iterate with: for (key . value) across my-vector
2016-04-26T17:23:17Z razieliyo: at first I thought on just making a helper function (defun stat-index (stat) (cond ((eq stat 'foo) 0) (cond ((eq stat 'bar) 1)))
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2016-04-26T17:23:52Z jasom: Bicyclidine: you're right; I don't use array literals that often
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2016-04-26T17:24:00Z razieliyo: jasom, ok ok, I get it
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2016-04-26T17:25:23Z jasom: If the primary way you will access things is by index, and you don't need fast insertion anywhere except at the end, then vectors are the obvious solution.
2016-04-26T17:25:55Z razieliyo: yes, I just need addition of a few just at the start, or maybe 2 or 3 runs of those from time to time
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2016-04-26T17:26:19Z razieliyo: then I guess I would write accessor for that structure
2016-04-26T17:26:55Z drewc: razieliyo: (defstruct my-table (vector (vector)) (hash (make-hash-table))) <--- combine the two and make a SETTABLE/GETTABLE/(SETF (GETTABLE ...) if you want both things at the same time.
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2016-04-26T17:27:47Z razieliyo: drewc, wait, I think I lost myself there
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2016-04-26T17:31:47Z ecraven: just in case anyone is interested, Chez Scheme was today put open source onto github :) #chez is talking about it
2016-04-26T17:32:20Z isBEKaml: yeah, it's on HN as well.
2016-04-26T17:32:23Z jasom: razieliyo: the takeaway I think is that hashtables do not offer an unchanging index, so you'll need to use something else.  Exactly which something else we could talk about for hours, so just pick something that works.
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2016-04-26T17:32:44Z isBEKaml: Cisco/Cadence somehow convinced themselves to make it open and available on Github
2016-04-26T17:33:49Z razieliyo: jasom, noted, I think I'll do that, rabbit holes are not good, but anyway I'm analyzing the drewc recommendation
2016-04-26T17:34:17Z razieliyo: I didn't read the entire defstruct docs, and I think I'm missing stuff there
2016-04-26T17:34:37Z drewc: razieliyo: store two conses. In the vector (label . value) and in the hash (index . value)... when you want a fast name lookup, (cdr (gethash ....)). For an index, (cdr (aref .....)) or equivalent. the setter combines the two, the getter removes one.
2016-04-26T17:35:38Z drewc: razieliyo: that struct could be a CONS as well ... (cons (vector) (make-hash-table)) ... how the two are combined is not important.
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2016-04-26T17:36:09Z jasom: drewc: that doesn't let you do a fast lookup of the name given only the index
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2016-04-26T17:37:27Z drewc: jasom: "In the vector (label . value)" ... how is (CAR (AREF...)) not fast enough for your purposes?
2016-04-26T17:37:32Z razieliyo: drewc, ok, thanks, I still miss the syntax used there, I had used defstruct via (defstruct the-struct memb1 memb2 memb3)
2016-04-26T17:39:03Z jasom: razieliyo: he's just specifying initializers for the members
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2016-04-26T17:39:29Z drewc: clhs defstruct
2016-04-26T17:39:29Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm
2016-04-26T17:39:39Z razieliyo: drewc, I'm there
2016-04-26T17:39:42Z jasom: (defstruct the-struct (member1 (evaluate-this-form-to-initialize-member1)) ...)
2016-04-26T17:40:15Z razieliyo: okay, so a struct built from defstruct is just a list internally
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2016-04-26T17:40:21Z jasom: (defstruct the-struct (member1 0)) will initialize membe1 with zero
2016-04-26T17:40:29Z drewc: razieliyo: slot-description::= slot-name | (slot-name [slot-initform [[slot-option]]])
2016-04-26T17:40:31Z razieliyo: in this case, a list of 2 members, one vector and one hash
2016-04-26T17:41:01Z drewc: razieliyo: yes/no ... in that form no, not a list, a struct.
2016-04-26T17:41:14Z razieliyo: but you can use car and cdr
2016-04-26T17:42:23Z drewc: No, you cannot. The value #S(MY-TABLE :VECTOR #() HASH #<HASH-TABLE :TEST EQL size 0/60 #x3020011B26DD>) is not of the expected type LIST.
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2016-04-26T17:43:31Z jasom: a struct is *not* a list nor vector.  However, defstruct can be used to define constructors and accessors for lists or vectors
2016-04-26T17:44:36Z razieliyo: drewc, jasom, ok ok, I get it, I just thought it would be needed to access both elements, vector and hash, through car and cdr
2016-04-26T17:44:42Z razieliyo: thanks both for the help, really
2016-04-26T17:45:30Z drewc: razieliyo:  No, you cannot. CAR and CDR are for CONS's and NIL. That is all they work on.
2016-04-26T17:45:53Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I get that. Just treat libecl like any system library (like libcairo) – it's present on many distributions
2016-04-26T17:46:20Z razieliyo: ok ok, I got confused by this: (cdr (aref .....)) (cdr (gethash ....)) (CAR (AREF...))
2016-04-26T17:46:23Z jackdaniel: warweasle: also, if you want to make a real distribution, then you may pack the library with your executable
2016-04-26T17:46:30Z jasom: razieliyo: drewc suggests you make a struct that contains a vector and a hash, and then ensure that the vectors and the hashes contain CONSes
2016-04-26T17:46:53Z jasom: (cdr (aref #((a . b)) 0)) => b
2016-04-26T17:47:00Z razieliyo: I guess the ... is (my-table-hash my-table-instance)
2016-04-26T17:47:08Z razieliyo: and the same with my-table-vector
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2016-04-26T17:47:49Z razieliyo: jasom, drewc okay, thanks for the explanations!
2016-04-26T17:48:30Z warweasle: jackdaniel: That is my reasoning for static linking. If I link in all the c libraries, then I can disable library loading (if I even have to) and hand out one big binary.
2016-04-26T17:48:39Z jasom: also, if you have a compile-time defined list of names, you can use defstruct to make a vector that gives you named accessors
2016-04-26T17:48:53Z razieliyo: I guess for insertions, you must be sure to sync both the vector and the hash
2016-04-26T17:49:11Z razieliyo: jasom, I have, and I would totally be ok with that
2016-04-26T17:49:20Z razieliyo: I just want named accessors and indexed
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2016-04-26T17:49:54Z razieliyo: I'll check onto defstruct in more deep
2016-04-26T17:50:02Z jasom: (defstruct (point (:type vector)) (x 0) (y 0)) │ (make-point) => #(0 0) │ (point-x (make-point)) => 0
2016-04-26T17:50:08Z razieliyo: deeper* in more depth* gosh
2016-04-26T17:50:14Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I believe that's what containers were inventer for – so you don't have to do static linking – which often simply doesn't work
2016-04-26T17:50:34Z jasom: for your sanity, you can also add a :named option, which will put the name that you use in defstruct as the first element of the vector
2016-04-26T17:50:45Z jackdaniel: for instance glibc – you can't truthly static link with glibc due to libresolv issues afair
2016-04-26T17:51:18Z razieliyo: jasom, thanks
2016-04-26T17:51:38Z jasom: (defstruct (point (:type vector) :named) (x 0) (y 0)) (make-point) => #(POINT 0 0)
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2016-04-26T17:51:51Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Well, system libs are out. I suppose I could just distribute a whole OS, but that's overkill too. :)
2016-04-26T17:52:08Z warweasle: jackdaniel: Also, what are containers.
2016-04-26T17:52:37Z jackdaniel: warweasle: one example is docker (the most popular one now)
2016-04-26T17:52:39Z jackdaniel: it's foss
2016-04-26T17:53:24Z jackdaniel: you basically put stuff you necessarily need there (like shared objects)
2016-04-26T17:53:31Z jackdaniel: and yours binary
2016-04-26T17:53:35Z jackdaniel: and poof, it magically works
2016-04-26T17:53:43Z jasom wishes static linking were easier
2016-04-26T17:53:59Z jasom: and yes, one reason for docker is that it's not easy to make a statically linked binary
2016-04-26T17:54:33Z jasom: warweasle: containers are like distributing the whole OS, minus the kernel
2016-04-26T17:54:58Z jackdaniel: but this whole os is often ~40M, depending what you feed it with
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2016-04-26T17:56:32Z jackdaniel: the other, very promising solution (not sure how well it works now though) are the rumpkernels
2016-04-26T17:56:41Z jasom: I have a completely working sbcl image in 156.7 MB for docker
2016-04-26T17:57:01Z jasom: which is about as big as an uncompressed sbcl executable anyway
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2016-04-26T17:57:53Z jackdaniel: warweasle: I believe docker will be the most viable solution for your usecase given current technology (and it's limitations)
2016-04-26T17:58:31Z jasom: docker is problematic for games though; is it even possible to give it DRI access?
2016-04-26T17:59:23Z jasom: warweasle: for windows, just put all of the .dll you depend on in the same folder as your game; windows looks in the current working directory first (and the cwd defaults to wherever the executable is if you launch it by double-clicking)
2016-04-26T17:59:29Z jackdaniel: jasom: hm, honestly I don't know, but why not?
2016-04-26T18:00:00Z jasom: jackdaniel: providing it by default is a huge security hole, as it's typically trivial to overwrite kernel ram by programming the DMA registers on the card
2016-04-26T18:00:26Z jackdaniel: maybe it requiers some configuration
2016-04-26T18:00:49Z jackdaniel: I don't know
2016-04-26T18:00:58Z jasom: it would; I, in general, don't know how to give docker images access to raw devices
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2016-04-26T18:01:53Z jasom: http://gernotklingler.com/blog/howto-get-hardware-accelerated-opengl-support-docker/ <-- there it is
2016-04-26T18:02:17Z jasom: still not great for games, as the image needs the identical graphics driver as the host system
2016-04-26T18:02:34Z jackdaniel: uhm
2016-04-26T18:02:38Z jasom: now instead of having to just the .dll's you need video drivers too
2016-04-26T18:04:56Z jasom: warweasle: I already said how to force the right .dll's on windows; for linux, you can bundle the shared-objects and provide the path to them in one of several ways (a shell script wrapper with LD_LIBRARY_PATH set is the easiest)
2016-04-26T18:06:40Z razieliyo: jasom, your example of (defstruct (point (:type vector)) (x 0) (y 0)), can I access x or y by index?
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2016-04-26T18:07:32Z sepi: Does anyone know if clack makes the http request header available to middlewares?
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2016-04-26T18:11:30Z warweasle: jasom: I might be able to use -rpath for linux.
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2016-04-26T18:15:16Z jasom: razieliyo: yes, the indexes are in the order that they are specified in defstruct, and they will start with 0 or 1 depending on whether or not you specify the :named option to the struct
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2016-04-26T18:15:31Z jasom: so in that example, x is at index 0 and y is at index 1
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2016-04-26T18:16:08Z jasom: sepi: it makes the entire environment plist available IIRC
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2016-04-26T18:18:32Z razieliyo: jasom, neat! that's exactly what I wanted
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2016-04-26T18:42:48Z sepi: jasom: well what I seem to get is only a plist with the GET params
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2016-04-26T18:43:24Z sepi: jasom: oh, I'm using ningle, so it might be that clack gives more information to its handlers
2016-04-26T18:44:27Z jasom: yeah, I looked at a couple of clack frameworks and just ended up using raw clack
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2016-04-26T18:44:53Z jasom: I had to reinvent the wheel for like two things total, and in exchange I got something that was easier for me to understand
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2016-04-26T18:53:13Z jasom: middleware gets the middleware object plus the environment plist
2016-04-26T18:53:41Z jasom: https://github.com/jasom/cl-fccs/blob/master/src/session.lisp <-- here's a simple tool for managing sessions plus csrf prevention
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2016-04-26T18:58:31Z fchurca: hiyo
2016-04-26T18:59:12Z jasom: sepi: it looks like the special variable *request* containes the entire lack request
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2016-04-26T19:24:52Z diskord_: hi
2016-04-26T19:25:23Z diskord_: I want to write simple project on CL on Linux
2016-04-26T19:25:47Z diskord_: What I should learn? What is the best IDE for lisp on linux?
2016-04-26T19:26:36Z mood: diskord_: Emacs with SLIME is generally regarded as the best IDE for CL
2016-04-26T19:26:52Z diskord_: One more question
2016-04-26T19:26:52Z mood: If you don't know Emacs, though, that might be a lot to learn
2016-04-26T19:26:59Z diskord_: vim?
2016-04-26T19:27:29Z dlowe: vim is fine. I used vim for months doing CL
2016-04-26T19:27:30Z diskord_: And i need to write it on autolisp
2016-04-26T19:27:32Z Bicyclidine: is that the question, or a noun spoken as a question
2016-04-26T19:27:35Z mood: Some people use Vim. I believe Slimv is your best bet then
2016-04-26T19:27:42Z Bicyclidine: oh. you are not in the right channel for autolisp.
2016-04-26T19:27:44Z dlowe: without slimv too
2016-04-26T19:27:58Z H4ns: lispworks has a decent ide, and the personal edition will be sufficient for learning.
2016-04-26T19:28:06Z dlowe: they said CL at first, not autolisp
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2016-04-26T19:28:14Z diskord_: sorry
2016-04-26T19:28:18Z diskord_: )
2016-04-26T19:28:39Z dlowe: well, which is it?
2016-04-26T19:29:25Z diskord_: Is it big difference between? I need to do it on autolisp, but i want to practice in CL
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2016-04-26T19:29:33Z Bicyclidine: it's a pretty big difference.
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2016-04-26T19:30:32Z diskord_: syntax?
2016-04-26T19:30:47Z fchurca: i can vouch for vim+slimv too
2016-04-26T19:31:34Z H4ns: diskord_: autolisp and cl are as similar as javascript and c++ are.
2016-04-26T19:31:41Z diskord_: But i haven't found autolisp channel(
2016-04-26T19:31:46Z fchurca: minion: tell diskord_ about pcl
2016-04-26T19:31:47Z minion: diskord_: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
2016-04-26T19:31:59Z H4ns: diskord_: freenode is about free software, autolisp is not that.
2016-04-26T19:32:09Z dlowe: fchurca: diskord_ isn't interested in CL, apparently.
2016-04-26T19:32:21Z diskord_: (
2016-04-26T19:33:16Z fchurca: he has said he'd like to practice CL in adition to needing to use autolisp
2016-04-26T19:33:30Z fchurca: s/adition/addition/
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2016-04-26T19:37:10Z diskord_: Ok, i have a task, i need to write octree on autolisp, it's cool. But i don't know lisp. I just start to learn python and C++. And i don't use (auto)lisp before it.
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2016-04-26T19:41:45Z fchurca: :message diskord_
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2016-04-26T19:48:52Z aeth: Just a reminder for people who forgot or don't know, but there's a Lisp game jam starting in about 2 days. https://itch.io/jam/spring-2016-lisp-game-jam
2016-04-26T19:49:12Z aeth: The IRC channel is the related subchannel #lispgames
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2016-04-26T19:52:30Z dto: hello. imagine if there were a New England Lisp Games Meetup in the greater Boston area sometime in July/August. would anyone want to come? i'm considering trying to book that wacky place Game Underground in natick and we could have lightning talks, game demos, etc. thus far myself and 4 other area peeps have expressed positive interest. i thought i would mention it here just to see. thanks and please visit #lispgames if you are curious
2016-04-26T19:52:30Z dto: about the meetup or our imminent gamejam.
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2016-04-26T19:54:28Z dto: Xach you are also of course cordially invited :)
2016-04-26T19:54:50Z Xach: I'm interested, but logistics are impossible this summer.
2016-04-26T19:55:00Z Xach is much farther from boston now
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2016-04-26T19:55:22Z warweasle: Xach: All you have to do is submit a blank file and disable quicklisp for a few days.
2016-04-26T19:55:28Z warweasle: Xach: Instant win.
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2016-04-26T19:55:50Z dto: no worries Xach we will be sure to get videos.
2016-04-26T19:55:51Z Xach: i ... what?
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2016-04-26T19:56:01Z dto: i think warweasle is being facetious in some way
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2016-04-26T19:56:17Z warweasle: dto: None of our games would run. YOu would win by default.
2016-04-26T19:56:20Z Xach: i am intrigued and want to know more!
2016-04-26T19:56:22Z Xach: ahhh
2016-04-26T19:56:32Z dto: oh haha
2016-04-26T19:56:34Z dto: nah
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2016-04-26T19:56:50Z warweasle: Xach: Also, I bet donations go up.
2016-04-26T19:56:50Z dto: i'd want as many demos as we can do. maybe demo jam stuff if there is an august jam
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2016-04-26T19:57:11Z dto: i could design an elimination based multi round 3x0ng versus tournament.
2016-04-26T19:57:16Z Xach: "nice package system you got there...would be a shame if something were to happen to it"
2016-04-26T19:57:23Z Xach: that always works pretty well
2016-04-26T19:57:49Z warweasle shells out...cash.
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2016-04-26T19:59:11Z dto: Xach: i recently wrote up and published my howto notes about how to install a parallel SBCL and Quicklisp under Wine so that you can cross compile Win32 EXE's. i'm going to update and revise it a bit to use your Buildapp as the machinery
2016-04-26T19:59:26Z Xach: oooh cool. where are those notes?
2016-04-26T19:59:51Z warweasle: dto: You can do that?
2016-04-26T20:00:32Z dto: https://gitlab.com/dto/xelf/blob/master/build/build-it.lisp
2016-04-26T20:01:01Z dto: warweasle: yeah. that's how i make the windows downloads for my games. it works on Real Windows!
2016-04-26T20:01:21Z warweasle: I've never thought about doing windows development in wine.
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2016-04-26T20:02:44Z Xach: pity ccl doesn't work under wine. my current project would benefit.
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2016-04-26T20:04:38Z dto: Xach: i tried to fix it with help from CCL support but to no avail. the part that maps where things load into memory from a binary is IIRC a thicket of conditionals mapping WindowsVersion --> addresses
2016-04-26T20:05:12Z dto: now i still have issued with SBCL and Windows Data Execution Prevention, and i will try to help the SBCL people debug that. i've been told that it should be able to mark memory properly to avoid this.
2016-04-26T20:05:36Z dto: Xach: what are you working on these days?
2016-04-26T20:05:44Z Xach: lispy bits & pieces
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2016-04-26T20:06:29Z dto: sweet. :)
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2016-04-26T20:08:33Z akkad: Xach: where would one find your ql testing stuff for different cl implementations?
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2016-04-26T20:08:54Z Xach: akkad: I don't do that testing...it's done via the cl-test-grid project
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2016-04-26T20:15:12Z drmeister: I'm working on an approach to C++ interop that should be faster than FFI.
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2016-04-26T20:16:03Z drmeister: C++ code can be directly inlined into IR generated from CL code.
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2016-04-26T20:16:40Z drmeister: Code from external libraries.
2016-04-26T20:17:57Z drmeister: (cmon,  somebody ask me how it's done!)
2016-04-26T20:18:19Z Bicyclidine: you need source, i guess?
2016-04-26T20:18:34Z drmeister: Yeah.  It has to be compiled with -flto
2016-04-26T20:18:40Z drmeister: Link Time Optimization.
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2016-04-26T20:19:27Z drmeister: It does inlining at the link stage.
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2016-04-26T20:22:19Z drmeister: I'm adding it to Clasp.   It will link all functions using the llvm "fastcc" calling convention.  Fastcc passes as many arguments as possible in registers and it uses both the callee and caller to sort out what registers to use.
2016-04-26T20:22:30Z drmeister: Functions that make sense are inlined directly.
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2016-04-26T20:23:43Z drmeister: It's got a lot of upsides.  For things like the numerical functions - I'll be able to inline the ones I've already written in C++ into the Common Lisp.   I won't have to rewrite everything in CL for speed.
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2016-04-26T20:25:11Z drmeister: I'll just break the numerical functions up into lots of little type specific functions and then write CL to dispatch to them at runtime.
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2016-04-26T20:25:39Z drmeister: Then when Cleavir gets type inference it will be able to eliminate the useless runtime type checks and code.
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2016-04-26T20:39:06Z emaczen: What is the proper way to add keybindings for slime-commands?
2016-04-26T20:39:13Z emaczen: (define-key ... ...)?
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2016-04-26T20:43:49Z sepi: What's the lib to use to replace certain characters in a string with others. If possible not ppcre
2016-04-26T20:43:56Z jasom: drmeister: it's usually not an issue with scientific code, but be aware that LTO tends to reveal previously unknown undefined behaviors in code
2016-04-26T20:44:22Z Bicyclidine: oh, like what? that sounds fun.
2016-04-26T20:45:37Z akkad: Xach: thanks
2016-04-26T20:45:50Z brpocock: emaczen: I use (define-key slime-mode-map (kbd "<foo>") 'thing) ; if that's what you mean?
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2016-04-26T20:46:59Z jasom: Bicyclidine: here's a real-world C example: a library call that takes an intptr_t * and fills it with the address of a buffer as an intptr_t, followed by a cast from intptr_t to char * and a read from the memory.  the compiler can reorder the write to the intptr_t * inside the library call and the dereference of the char * so that you read from whatever garbage was in that value previously.
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2016-04-26T20:47:28Z jasom: because the compiler can assume that an object of type intptr_t and an object of type char * do not alias
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2016-04-26T20:47:56Z Bicyclidine: nice, nice
2016-04-26T20:48:17Z mood: clhs substitute
2016-04-26T20:48:17Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
2016-04-26T20:48:20Z mood: sepi: ^
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2016-04-26T20:50:01Z jasom: Bicyclidine: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314745
2016-04-26T20:50:49Z jasom: oops, it should be intptr_t addr; not intptr_t *addr;
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2016-04-26T20:52:24Z sepi: mood: thanks!
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2016-04-26T20:54:07Z Bicyclidine: oh, so the explicit cast defines it
2016-04-26T20:54:07Z drmeister: jasom: So the problem can come up when a pointer is cast to a non-pointer and the compiler assumes they can't alias each other and reorders their access.
2016-04-26T20:54:48Z jasom: drmeister: when the same memory is represented by objects of two different types (and neither of the types is a char) then the compiler assumes they can't alias each other
2016-04-26T20:55:11Z emaczen: brpocock: I'm getting type errors when I try that...
2016-04-26T20:55:23Z jasom: drmeister: and this rule was created get people like you 25 years ago (computational chemists and physicists) switch from FORTRAN to C
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2016-04-26T20:55:54Z jasom: FORTRAN has very strict aliasing rules, and C did not, so they tried to make rules that would allow C to catch up
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2016-04-26T20:56:45Z jasom: -fno-strict-aliasing will fix a *lot* of undefined behaviors in systems code
2016-04-26T20:56:55Z drmeister: Hmm, noted.
2016-04-26T20:57:07Z jasom: and I need to tie this back to lisp somehow, or I'm OT
2016-04-26T20:57:16Z drmeister: OT?
2016-04-26T20:57:21Z jasom: off topic
2016-04-26T20:57:43Z jasom: aha, non-simple arrays are slow at least partly because they can be aliased!
2016-04-26T20:58:08Z Bicyclidine: how so?
2016-04-26T20:58:19Z brpocock: emaczen: may need to wrap in (eval-after-load "slime" … ) ; or what type-errors?
2016-04-26T20:58:29Z Bicyclidine: i mean, they probably have to have a runtime type tag, but so does everything
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2016-04-26T21:01:17Z jasom: I don't remember.  Someone who knew a lot about sbcl internals explained it to me 5 or 6 years ago, but I've forgotten.  I think at the time I was asking about fill pointers making it slow, and it was pointed out that if it's not of type simple-array (which it can't be if it has a fill pointer) then sbcl can't assume it's not also displaced.  And mumble something something displaced arrays are hard.
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2016-04-26T21:02:42Z jasom: but it's why you see (simple-array '(unsigned-byte 8) (*)) rather than (vector '(unsigned-byte 8)) in byte-manipulation code that wants to run fast on sbcl
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2016-04-26T21:03:05Z jasom: and I think I added spurious quotes there
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2016-04-26T21:05:29Z Bicyclidine: it's so confusing that simple-vector is specialized and simple-array isn't.
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2016-04-26T21:06:56Z drmeister: Well, there's no turning back now.
2016-04-26T21:06:58Z drmeister: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ToKZwn0A/
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2016-04-26T21:07:52Z drmeister: This is Clasp calling a C function directly.  With LTO it will be calling an inlined function.   If this function were proclaimed "inline" then the C function would be inlined in the CL code.
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2016-04-26T21:13:03Z jasom: nice
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2016-04-26T21:16:20Z fchurca: nice
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2016-04-26T21:20:57Z drmeister: I'm going to set things up so that all of Clasp's C++ functions and methods are called this way.
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2016-04-26T21:21:32Z sepi: is there a way to securely #'read a float in string representation?
2016-04-26T21:22:02Z Bicyclidine: *read-eval* nil and controlling the readtable is enough, but you could also use a library like parse-number.
2016-04-26T21:23:47Z sepi: Bicyclidine: so how could someone else control my readtable?
2016-04-26T21:25:13Z Bicyclidine: well, if you load your readtable from elsewhere, mainly
2016-04-26T21:25:39Z fchurca: an open swank?
2016-04-26T21:25:41Z Bicyclidine: you can use with-standard-io-syntax to install a standard table and everything else (but you'd have to bind read-eval again)
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2016-04-26T21:26:52Z Bicyclidine: or just bind *readtable* to (copy-readtable nil), it's not hard to deal with
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2016-04-26T21:31:39Z fchurca: brb
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2016-04-26T21:32:56Z fchurca: back
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2016-04-26T21:37:23Z sepi: Bicyclidine: ok, thanks. That's good to know
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2016-04-26T21:40:49Z fchurca: The following pull request is up for comment/criticism/butchery: https://github.com/fukamachi/mito/pull/5
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2016-04-26T21:51:24Z PuercoPop: fchurca: add documentation strings? (to defparameter and defgeneric at least)
2016-04-26T21:51:52Z fchurca: I had forgotten about that, thanks
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2016-04-26T22:28:29Z sepi: fukamachi is not in #lisp by accident?
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2016-04-26T22:29:11Z Xach: I don't think I have ever seen fukamachi in #lisp, at least not as an active participant
2016-04-26T22:29:31Z sepi: Such a pity
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2016-04-26T22:53:15Z dto: Xach i hope you will find my notes useful. at some point i'll make a nice auto script
2016-04-26T22:53:20Z dto: for the wine setup
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2016-04-27T00:47:37Z biubiubiu: hi
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2016-04-27T01:16:05Z chris11: hi, I was working on a hw assignment and was a little confused about a topic. The hw has us using a heap to represent memory locations and values. I'm confused about how I should change the heap in functions.
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2016-04-27T01:16:58Z chris11: for instance lets say I have this expression: (+ (func val heap) (func val heap)) I don't know a great way to write it so that the first call to func can change the value of heap for the second call to func.
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2016-04-27T01:21:40Z Xach: chris11: if HEAP is an object with mutable internal structure, changes made to that structure in one function call are visible afterwards.
2016-04-27T01:21:55Z Xach: chris11: it doesn't involve changing the value of the binding
2016-04-27T01:22:37Z Zhivago: The simple answer is that unless func is a macro or special operator, it won't change the value of heap.
2016-04-27T01:22:38Z Xach: for example, if it was an array, and the function set the first element to 42, subsequent functions would see that value of the first element.
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2016-04-27T01:23:48Z chris11: are objects with mutable internal structures functional? I've just been implementing the heap with a list, which isn't mutable.
2016-04-27T01:23:57Z Xach: lists are mutable.
2016-04-27T01:24:30Z Xach: "functional programming" often avoids or prohibits mutating things like that.
2016-04-27T01:24:50Z Xach: CL isn't so picky, neither by law nor by common practice.
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2016-04-27T01:26:08Z Xach: chris11: are you using CL, or something else?
2016-04-27T01:26:11Z chris11: I'm actually using racket.
2016-04-27T01:26:19Z Xach: oh. not on-topic here.
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2016-04-27T01:28:12Z drmeister: I should know the answer to this  but it's eluding me for some reason.
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2016-04-27T01:28:25Z drmeister: How do I #include code with Common Lisp?
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2016-04-27T01:28:45Z drmeister: Say I have a file that I'm compile-file'ing and I'd like to include code from another file.
2016-04-27T01:28:46Z Xach: drmeister: LOAD?
2016-04-27T01:28:57Z Xach: drmeister: that isn't done in common lisp.
2016-04-27T01:29:00Z drmeister: I can't use (load XXX) because that will compile the (load XXX)
2016-04-27T01:29:07Z lexicall: define a package?
2016-04-27T01:29:16Z Xach: drmeister: compile-file and load the file you want loaded first, first?
2016-04-27T01:29:27Z Xach: drmeister: that's what ASDF arranges...
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2016-04-27T01:31:46Z drmeister: I'm not sure that's what I'm looking for - thinking...
2016-04-27T01:31:58Z Xach: drmeister: what's in the file you want to include?
2016-04-27T01:32:15Z drmeister: I've got a bunch of CL function definitions that I'm generating from SBCL code.
2016-04-27T01:32:28Z drmeister: I want those function definitions compiled and evaluated at load time.
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2016-04-27T01:32:51Z drmeister: Compiled when I build Clasp.
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2016-04-27T01:33:20Z Xach: you could (load (compile-file ...)) if you wanted something simple.
2016-04-27T01:33:22Z drmeister: I kind of do this now for prologue and epilogue forms when I compile Clasp.
2016-04-27T01:33:24Z Xach: in an eval-when
2016-04-27T01:34:51Z drmeister: Xach: Thanks - I'm still casting about a bit as to what exactly I need - sorry to be vague.
2016-04-27T01:35:00Z Xach: no problem. the answers are vague too.
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2016-04-27T01:35:31Z zdm: Xach: How much does it cost for you to host quicklisp?
2016-04-27T01:36:29Z Xach: zdm: i pay $40/month for a real server that hosts quicklisp.org and other sites, and under $10/month for S3/cloudfront storage and traffic.
2016-04-27T01:37:06Z zdm: Oh, the traffic price is not bad at all.
2016-04-27T01:37:23Z zdm: traffic and storage i mean
2016-04-27T01:37:28Z Xach: no. it's pretty acceptable. if CL was more popular i would need VC!
2016-04-27T01:37:42Z Xach: i'd hate to see the bill for something like npm or rubygems or whatever
2016-04-27T01:38:32Z zdm: yeah, cl's limited popularity allows quicklisp to exist (exist being maintained/ran by a single person)
2016-04-27T01:39:02Z Xach: yeah. but then if CL was more popular there would be a bigger potential pool of helpers...
2016-04-27T01:40:36Z lexicall: Xach: run by a single person? this sounds selfless. is there enough contribution for you to maintain that host? or you just volunteer to spend that money?
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2016-04-27T01:41:43Z Xach: lexicall: donations more than cover those recurring costs. and i use donations to buy hardware for quicklisp and things like that.
2016-04-27T01:42:09Z Xach: i'm self-employed, and hoping to have a fundraising drive that allows me to spend some solid time on development work.
2016-04-27T01:42:16Z Xach: and documentation work.
2016-04-27T01:42:28Z warweasle`: Xach: Meh. It was hard to write, it should be hard to use.
2016-04-27T01:42:34Z zdm: lol
2016-04-27T01:42:41Z lexicall: Xach: cool!
2016-04-27T01:43:02Z warweasle`: Xach: I want features like the promised application to balance weasels on a rake.
2016-04-27T01:43:11Z Xach: warweasles
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2016-04-27T01:43:40Z warweasle`: (If anyone doesn't know the reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM1Zb3xmvMc)
2016-04-27T01:43:41Z mejja: problem is you gave to be a retard to like CL
2016-04-27T01:43:57Z Xach: mejja: Not appreciated.
2016-04-27T01:44:06Z mejja: t
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2016-04-27T01:45:36Z warweasle`: I'm far enough along with clinch's gui stuff that I have to worry about having a box model.
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2016-04-27T01:48:16Z biubiubiu: warweasle`: what is clinch?
2016-04-27T01:48:39Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: My game engine.
2016-04-27T01:48:46Z lexicall: it's cool to see the ansi standard for CL haven't been changed for decades, while C++ have to evolve itself to keep on trend. but C++14 is more like lisp now, lol
2016-04-27T01:49:11Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: Here are a few videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYO1OfnL9WoMESEdt_UEP0w
2016-04-27T01:49:44Z warweasle`: lexicall: We'll take'em with us; kicking and dragging.
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2016-04-27T01:50:53Z lexicall: warweasle`: of course, they can only balance rabbits on a rake, not weasels.
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2016-04-27T01:51:09Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: I think it's finally reached "critical mass" where it starts to build on itself.
2016-04-27T01:51:16Z warweasle`: lexicall: Noooo!!!!
2016-04-27T01:52:12Z biubiubiu: warweasle`: and what about other lisp's gui?
2016-04-27T01:53:08Z lexicall: biubiubiu: lisp's not quite mature for GUIs, as I know.  maybe you can try to build an html server for grafical....
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2016-04-27T01:53:32Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: This is meant to be a 3D and 2D development system. Example of the 3d stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjy3ajmx9Fs
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2016-04-27T01:54:35Z biubiubiu: lexicall: you are right
2016-04-27T01:55:13Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: Also, I intend to make productivity tools easy to compose. For example, quickly creating a 3D presentation for work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmWLOyZo454
2016-04-27T01:55:41Z lexicall: biubiubiu: i was once suggested to try ceramic, while i didn't. and i just split the core and the shell into different parts, implement them separately with lisp(core) and C++(for GUI)
2016-04-27T01:55:46Z warweasle`: And if you like the ideas for the display stuff, wait until you see the ones for editing and sharing.
2016-04-27T01:57:04Z lexicall: warweasle`: i think there are differences between GUI programming and Game programming.
2016-04-27T01:57:11Z warweasle`: lexicall: Why?
2016-04-27T01:57:28Z lexicall: warweasle`: sometimes you just want a window and do not need 3d models or something else
2016-04-27T01:57:35Z warweasle`: lexicall: And why must simple things involve programming?
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2016-04-27T01:58:22Z warweasle`: lexicall: That's the 2D part. In my last video, I show the 2D part, where it just renders text and 2D vector graphics. Like emacs does with SVG apparently.
2016-04-27T01:58:56Z warweasle`: lexicall: Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpDAUqmxEXo
2016-04-27T01:59:10Z lexicall: warweasle`: well i don't think my freenode client should be rendered by 2D/3D engines...
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2016-04-27T01:59:19Z warweasle`: lexicall: It already is.
2016-04-27T01:59:28Z warweasle`: lexicall: Unless you are using a raw console
2016-04-27T01:59:47Z lexicall: warweasle`: oh, i understand.
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2016-04-27T01:59:53Z warweasle`: lexicall: All major desktops use composting.
2016-04-27T01:59:55Z zdm: im on a teletype
2016-04-27T01:59:58Z zdm: ;]
2016-04-27T02:00:20Z warweasle`: zdm: You are truely the greatest of us all. Hack the good hack and never give up.
2016-04-27T02:00:27Z biubiubiu: warweasle`: erc is rendered by 2d/3d ?
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2016-04-27T02:00:50Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: I don't understand the question?
2016-04-27T02:00:52Z zdm: Always, warweasle`
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2016-04-27T02:02:39Z biubiubiu: warweasle`: emacs's client
2016-04-27T02:02:48Z biubiubiu: irc client
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2016-04-27T02:13:08Z warweasle`: biubiubiu: Oh, unless you are in a pure text terminal, your computer has to trace lines, fonts, etc to the screen anyway. You may was well use your graphics card to accelerate it.
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2016-04-27T02:45:11Z fouric: warweasle`! I would totally use a composting window manager
2016-04-27T02:45:57Z warweasle`: fouric: What do you use now?
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2016-04-27T02:46:42Z fouric: A compositing window manager
2016-04-27T02:46:47Z fouric: Significantly less eco-friendly :(
2016-04-27T02:47:06Z warweasle`: fouric: Ok...my typing is bad and I should feel bad.
2016-04-27T02:47:22Z fouric: (couldn't resist)
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2016-04-27T03:00:02Z lexicall_: XD bursted food out from my mouth....
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2016-04-27T03:58:16Z pillton: Is the "slightly convoluted example" in the ASDF manual right?
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2016-04-27T03:59:16Z pillton: It gives the impression you can define after methods on asdf:perform for system FOO whilst performing the operation on system FOO.
2016-04-27T03:59:51Z pillton: The only way those after methods will be invoked is if the effective method is recomputed.
2016-04-27T04:00:04Z pillton: My experimentation says that doesn't happen.
2016-04-27T04:00:29Z Bike: 6.2 in the manual?
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2016-04-27T04:00:35Z pillton: Yeah.
2016-04-27T04:00:45Z pillton: Sorry. I didn't see the number.
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2016-04-27T04:01:48Z Bike: as far as i read this, all the methods should be defined before any operation takes place.
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2016-04-27T04:03:17Z pillton: Then you would get a warning about COOK-DATA being undefined.
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2016-04-27T04:06:09Z Bike: i don't think it's fatal
2016-04-27T04:06:35Z pillton: It shouldn't be, but it isn't nice.
2016-04-27T04:07:13Z Bike: you could do (funcall (find-symbol "COOK-DATA" "FOO-PACKAGE") ...) if you mind
2016-04-27T04:07:20Z Bike: that's pretty much how you do it for tests, oftenly
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2016-04-27T04:07:52Z pillton: I did it by splitting "FOO" into two systems where the first system defines before methods for the second system.
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2016-04-27T04:14:43Z aeth: What's the best way to be able to run either a backend written on cl-vulkan or a backend written on cl-opengl? Check for Vulkan support, push it to *features*, and use ASDF's if-feature functionality to only load cl-vulkan if it's supported?
2016-04-27T04:15:06Z aeth: (Yes, I know, cl-vulkan isn't ready yet. I still need to set up my structure properly, so cl-opengl is optional rather than hardcoded.)
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2016-04-27T04:15:45Z pillton: It is a decision made by the user.
2016-04-27T04:15:52Z aeth: I think I'll probably have to load cl-opengl no matter what, to keep it as a fallback in case Vulkan is glitchy, even if the user's system has Vulkan.
2016-04-27T04:16:14Z pillton: Write whatever depends on cl-vulkan or cl-opengl such that doesn't require one to be present when loaded.
2016-04-27T04:16:27Z aeth: I think there will be issues if I'm trying to load cl-vulkan on a system that doesn't have the Vulkan API stuff on it (FFI compile error or something?)
2016-04-27T04:16:45Z aeth: So I'll have to do some sort of conditional.
2016-04-27T04:17:01Z pillton: No. A protocol would be better.
2016-04-27T04:17:45Z aeth: Right now, I have them all as separate systems, not even just as separate packages. So e.g. everything that depends on GL is either in the GL system or has it as a dependency.
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2016-04-27T04:18:12Z aeth: But I think I might be able to just write some clever conditionals and put them all in one system, only loading them if there's support on the user's system.
2016-04-27T04:18:31Z pillton: I'm saying that is the wrong way to do it.
2016-04-27T04:18:40Z aeth: pillton: what do you mean by protocol?
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2016-04-27T04:20:11Z pillton: A protocol generally means a collection of generic functions.
2016-04-27T04:20:32Z pillton: You could do it by defining a package which manages backends. All clients go through this package. A client doesn't communicate with the backend directly.
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2016-04-27T04:26:14Z aeth: pillton: How does the backend package avoid loading Lisp libraries that wrap C libraries that the user doesn't have?
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2016-04-27T04:28:07Z pillton: That doesn't happen until the user issues (asdf:load-system "libffifoo-backend").
2016-04-27T04:28:51Z pillton: The point is that your library shouldn't be making decisions for the user.
2016-04-27T04:31:16Z aeth: So there's a package, part of the same system as the rest of the library, which uses asdf:load-system directly, at runtime?
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2016-04-27T04:31:49Z aeth: And then one backend system for each backend?
2016-04-27T04:33:19Z pillton: Yes.
2016-04-27T04:33:24Z aeth: ah
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2016-04-27T04:33:41Z pillton: The library should not require any backend system to be loaded though.
2016-04-27T04:34:06Z aeth: It won't cause quicklisp problems because the backend systems are the ones with the dependencies, right? So will Quicklisp get the dependencies for each backend, no matter which one winds up being used?
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2016-04-27T04:34:41Z aeth: oh wait, that won't work
2016-04-27T04:34:58Z pillton: You have the same issue with systems which test other systems.
2016-04-27T04:35:09Z pillton: They work, so I don't see why your case wouldn't work.
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2016-04-27T04:36:00Z aeth: test systems can be integrated through asdf, e.g. https://github.com/fukamachi/prove#asdf-integration
2016-04-27T04:36:58Z pillton: I'm confused. Your library loads independently of the presence of any backend implementation.
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2016-04-27T04:40:18Z bigfondue: can you guys recommend any good lisp books for free online?
2016-04-27T04:40:29Z oleo: onlisp
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2016-04-27T04:40:47Z oleo: practical common lisp
2016-04-27T04:40:56Z oleo: cliki has many links
2016-04-27T04:41:01Z oleo: look at there
2016-04-27T04:41:11Z oleo: gentle intro to common lisp etc....
2016-04-27T04:41:12Z bigfondue: i just saw cliki after I asked
2016-04-27T04:41:42Z aeth: pillton: I thought that Quicklisp is built on ASDF, not the other way around. So if I have foo-backend.lisp that loads the foo-bar system directly through ASDF, how does Quicklisp know to fetch the package bar as a dependency?
2016-04-27T04:43:12Z pillton: aeth: This is what the user types. (quickload "aeth-library") (quickload "aeth-backend-libffifoo").
2016-04-27T04:43:38Z aeth: *oh*
2016-04-27T04:43:52Z aeth: So to use the library, you need to quickload both the library and its backend.
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2016-04-27T04:44:00Z pillton: Yeah.
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2016-04-27T04:44:25Z aeth: and so every app will be :depends-on (:aeth-library :aeth-backend-libffifoo)
2016-04-27T04:44:30Z aeth: Now I understand
2016-04-27T04:44:37Z aeth: I thought there was some magic in aeth-library that I was missing
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2016-04-27T04:44:53Z pillton: Every app only depends on aeth-library.
2016-04-27T04:45:22Z pillton: (quickload "aeth-library-app") (quickload "aeth-backend-libffifoo")
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2016-04-27T04:49:53Z aeth: pillton: so the user of the app that uses my library decides what to load?
2016-04-27T04:50:03Z pillton: aeth: Yes.
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2016-04-27T04:50:32Z aeth: I'm not sure that that can work for games. I think most people will want to make binaries to ship to the users.
2016-04-27T04:50:49Z aeth: Also, CL is not Java so I'm not sure we can expect the users to have it installed
2016-04-27T04:51:48Z aeth: I guess the people who make the binaries decide, then
2016-04-27T04:51:53Z pillton: The point is that "aeth-library" should be designed so that the user can decide what backend to use.
2016-04-27T04:52:04Z pillton: There are users which make binaries.
2016-04-27T04:52:30Z pillton: This is a good thread: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cl-pro/1227
2016-04-27T04:52:45Z aeth: Okay, thanks for the help.
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2016-04-27T04:54:11Z aeth: I'm going to remove any attempt to do backends right now because that's premature complexity since the choices are basically set to cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl right now... especially with cl-opengl because cl-vulkan isn't even complete.
2016-04-27T04:54:18Z aeth: I'll just write so that it can be refactored into this later on
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2016-04-27T04:56:11Z aeth: The way it looks like how backends actually work, it'll make things too complex until there's actually more than one possible backend for something, which might never happen for some options.
2016-04-27T04:57:32Z pillton: It is hard for me to comment since I don't know the specifics.
2016-04-27T04:57:57Z pillton: Don't mistake that to mean I'm interested in the specifics. :)
2016-04-27T04:59:04Z aeth: I need certain foreign libraries... at a minimum (assuming it's not a LispOS) for input, windows, and graphics rendering. The first two are cl-sdl2, the last one is cl-opengl. For now.
2016-04-27T04:59:16Z aeth: It's not very detailed. It's fairly high level when talking about packages, systems, etc.
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2016-04-27T05:03:17Z aeth: (I was slightly mistaken... I could use clx instead of a foreign library on Unixes except for OS X, but then I would need a different backend for each OS, e.g. Windows and OS X.)
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2016-04-27T05:15:37Z pillton: Where is beach?
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2016-04-27T05:18:16Z Zhivago: By the sea.
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2016-04-27T05:23:15Z beach: Good morning everyone!
2016-04-27T05:23:22Z beach: pillton: I am traveling.
2016-04-27T05:23:28Z Petit_Dejeuner: pillton was just asking about y- oh bouncer
2016-04-27T05:23:31Z beach: pillton: So I don't have much time for IRC.
2016-04-27T05:23:38Z aeth: beach: are you by the sea or is Zhivago lying?
2016-04-27T05:23:47Z pillton: beach: G'day.
2016-04-27T05:24:00Z beach: pillton: I already fixed the problem in the MOP site.
2016-04-27T05:24:07Z pillton: Cheers.
2016-04-27T05:24:28Z beach: pillton: But I haven't uploaded it yet.  I'll do that when I get back home in a few days.
2016-04-27T05:24:48Z beach: pillton: The error was in the original TeX source of the book.  I didn't type it in by hand.
2016-04-27T05:25:14Z pillton: Ok. My mistake.
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2016-04-27T05:25:46Z beach: No problem.  Just saying.
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2016-04-27T10:44:19Z razieliyo: was wondering about unit testing in lisp; it could just be a bunch of functions executed in batch making checks and throwing errors, but just wondering if there is some very-useful-unit-testing-framework
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2016-04-27T10:46:11Z jackdaniel: razieliyo: 5am and stefil are quite widespread
2016-04-27T10:46:35Z jackdaniel: there is also rt package (from mit) - pretty old but very capable and simple
2016-04-27T10:46:45Z razieliyo: jackdaniel, ok, thank you, will check on those
2016-04-27T10:47:53Z jackdaniel: sure
2016-04-27T10:48:17Z jackdaniel: o, there was also "prove" I think
2016-04-27T10:48:54Z razieliyo: ok, will check on that too, I don't need anything too fancy by now
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2016-04-27T10:49:45Z loke: And there is cl-unit
2016-04-27T10:49:58Z loke: And lisp-unit
2016-04-27T10:52:13Z jackdaniel: razieliyo: I'd go with to spare a headache of investigating things
2016-04-27T10:52:17Z jackdaniel: it's good enough
2016-04-27T10:52:27Z jackdaniel: I'd go with 5AM °
2016-04-27T10:52:32Z razieliyo: jackdaniel, loke thanks! :)
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2016-04-27T11:11:57Z attila_lendvai: razieliyo: I don't recommend rt at all (but then I'm the author of stefil, so...) also note that there's a more alive fork of stefil called fiasco.
2016-04-27T11:13:08Z attila_lendvai: razieliyo: the nice and unique thing with stefil/fiasco that it integrates very well into the slime development process. basically the restart and condition based implementation lets you copy-paste stuff into the repl, and tests are expanded into a defun that you can call from the repl...
2016-04-27T11:13:46Z razieliyo: attila_lendvai, thanks a lot for the info
2016-04-27T11:13:53Z attila_lendvai: it's basically a very thin layer over standard lisp that combines very freely with the rest of the language/devenv
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2016-04-27T11:14:22Z knobo1: Anyone of you smart enough to figure out what this bug is? https://github.com/7max/log4cl/issues/35
2016-04-27T11:15:37Z jdz: this was brought up here recently
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2016-04-27T11:16:58Z razieliyo: attila_lendvai, alright, thanks
2016-04-27T11:17:30Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: does stefil/fiasco have some sort of documentation?
2016-04-27T11:18:40Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: they have their own test systems as an example
2016-04-27T11:19:02Z jackdaniel: uhm
2016-04-27T11:19:46Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: I myself am not reading documentations, and when I do I just get annoyed, so I'm not writing them. what I wrote above should be about the entire documentation for such a system in my ideal world.
2016-04-27T11:20:40Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: well, I have the opposite opinion on documentation
2016-04-27T11:22:21Z knobo1: jdz: maybe it was me who brought it up when I wanted to do "ros build myapp" with datafly.
2016-04-27T11:22:31Z knobo1: it is not a datafly bug. but a log4cl bug
2016-04-27T11:22:34Z attila_lendvai: jackdaniel: my problem/experience is that whenever I need the documentation for something, it's never in there. it's always the basic stuff that just wastes both the reader's and the author's time. there should be a good bird's eye view, and then the rest of the documentation effort should be put into the codebase to be more readable, and into a test suite that can serve as a live documentation of some kind
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2016-04-27T11:22:58Z knobo1: That manage to fuck up all by itself without datafly or roswell
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2016-04-27T11:24:59Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: I think that examples are great, but only as a part of a bigger /thing/. http://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/09/teach-dont-tell/ is a nice read on that.
2016-04-27T11:26:11Z jackdaniel: I find underdocumented (ie only the reference), or undocumented (read the docstrings) libraries hard to use. But I understand that it doesn't have to bother the others
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2016-04-27T11:30:18Z jackdaniel: oy, I didn't know that Steve Losh programms also in CL
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2016-04-27T11:30:57Z sjl: I've just started really getting into it the past few months
2016-04-27T11:31:43Z jackdaniel: och, it's you? hi!
2016-04-27T11:31:50Z sjl: hah, yes
2016-04-27T11:31:52Z sjl: hi
2016-04-27T11:32:11Z attila_lendvai: I gradually gave up on documentation and shifted into looking straight at the code, especially for non-rocket-science libs like a unit test library. and when I started to work more in CL that shift sped up a lot...
2016-04-27T11:32:38Z jackdaniel: sjl: :) great writing on doc (the one I've posted above), love it
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2016-04-27T11:33:04Z attila_lendvai: don't you just love the online cleartext pseudonyms, that only hinder human communication, not the kinds of NSA? :)
2016-04-27T11:33:18Z jackdaniel: attila_lendvai: I respect that, just disagree :p
2016-04-27T11:33:39Z sjl: jackdaniel: thanks!
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2016-04-27T11:36:01Z attila_lendvai stored that article for possible reading in the future when he faces the question of whether to write a documentation for something
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2016-04-27T12:56:25Z Xach: attila_lendvai: more trouble!!
2016-04-27T12:56:41Z attila_lendvai: Xach: don't spare me!
2016-04-27T12:56:42Z mrottenkolber: double trouble!
2016-04-27T12:56:50Z Xach: attila_lendvai: in hu.dwim.partial-eval
2016-04-27T12:56:58Z Xach: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-04-26/failure-report/hu.dwim.partial-eval.html
2016-04-27T12:59:38Z attila_lendvai: damn that partial-eval... it was just a fun hackathlon to test our idea that partial-eval-ing authorization rules can work... a user logs in, formal authorization rules get eval'd into a lambda, that is called a gazillion times but is fast because of PE
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2016-04-27T12:59:55Z attila_lendvai: I'll try to fix it in a way that won't gut the whole thing...
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2016-04-27T13:00:53Z attila_lendvai starts by compiling a new sbcl
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2016-04-27T13:02:13Z attila_lendvai: s/eval'd/partial eval'd/
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2016-04-27T13:57:29Z drmeister: Is there a way to convert a string like "CL:CAR" into an interned symbol in one step?  (READ-FROM-STRING xxx)?
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2016-04-27T13:59:42Z ggole: Seems like the clean way to approach that is to use the package argument to intern.
2016-04-27T14:01:24Z flip214: drmeister: if you are sure that the package already exists, R-F-S might be the easiest way.
2016-04-27T14:02:00Z jackdaniel: flip214: read from string won't work, because ... car isn't in the package cl
2016-04-27T14:02:16Z jackdaniel: it would have to be CL::BAH, not CL:BAH
2016-04-27T14:03:00Z flip214: jackdaniel: inspect CL:CAR: "It is external to the package: COMMON-LISP"
2016-04-27T14:03:01Z jackdaniel: well, car is, but something not interned will signal a condition
2016-04-27T14:03:03Z TeMPOraL: jackdaniel: except it is, but in case of uninterned symbol you're right
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2016-04-27T14:03:44Z jackdaniel: flip214: question was "how to convert into an internet symbol" – I understand it as a question for interning even untinterned things
2016-04-27T14:03:53Z TeMPOraL: (at least SBCL complained when I tried to r-f-s "cl:foo" :P)
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2016-04-27T14:04:20Z flip214: yeah, then there's nothing but to split at one or two "::", and that possibly means looking for |, etc.
2016-04-27T14:04:33Z flip214: not enough data about the input
2016-04-27T14:04:55Z TeMPOraL: CL-USER> (read-from-string "cl:foo")
2016-04-27T14:04:57Z TeMPOraL: ; Evaluation aborted on #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR "Symbol ~S not found in the ~A package." {100426A813}>.
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2016-04-27T14:05:09Z TeMPOraL: well, maybe you could handle the condition and extract from it the symbol name and the package? :D
2016-04-27T14:05:13Z TeMPOraL: in case it's uninterned
2016-04-27T14:05:31Z jdz: TeMPOraL: "cl:foo" is not the same as "CL:FOO"
2016-04-27T14:05:47Z TeMPOraL: jdz: for read-from-string it is.
2016-04-27T14:05:51Z jdz: no it isn't
2016-04-27T14:06:09Z jackdaniel: jdz: (read-from-string "car") brings CAR on my repl
2016-04-27T14:06:17Z jackdaniel: unless you alter the readtable-case
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2016-04-27T14:06:39Z jdz: jackdaniel: you sure it gets you CAR and not |car|?
2016-04-27T14:06:59Z jackdaniel: jdz: yes, just typed it
2016-04-27T14:07:20Z dlowe: jdz: you're thinking of intern
2016-04-27T14:07:29Z dlowe: read-from-string acts just like the reader
2016-04-27T14:07:33Z jdz: yes, i might be
2016-04-27T14:07:38Z jdz: sorry for the noise
2016-04-27T14:08:50Z TeMPOraL: jdz: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314796 yes it is
2016-04-27T14:08:52Z TeMPOraL: :P
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2016-04-27T14:09:24Z jdz: TeMPOraL: what about your failing (read-from-string "cl:foo")?
2016-04-27T14:09:36Z TeMPOraL: jdz: not external to package
2016-04-27T14:09:53Z TeMPOraL: that's why in the pasted example I first went to CL and did (export 'bar)
2016-04-27T14:10:09Z jdz: CAR is external in CL package
2016-04-27T14:10:44Z TeMPOraL: jdz: that's why (read-from-string "cl:car") works...
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2016-04-27T14:11:50Z jdz: i think i should sleep to cure my reading comprehension ("cl:foo" is not the same as "cl:car")
2016-04-27T14:12:05Z jdz: this is what doing Python for living does to my brain...
2016-04-27T14:12:36Z TeMPOraL: jdz: could be worse - I'm doing Java -.-
2016-04-27T14:12:47Z jackdaniel: drmeister: I believe that the most sane would be butchering the string and using intern like ggole suggested. It's not a one-liner though
2016-04-27T14:12:48Z TeMPOraL: CL is the last thing that keeps me sane...
2016-04-27T14:13:27Z jackdaniel: "I'm doing Java, but the fellow programmers doesn't know I'm doing it in ABCL" xD
2016-04-27T14:13:46Z TeMPOraL: jackdaniel: what about (read-from-string (concatenate 'string "'" "cl:foo"))?
2016-04-27T14:13:50Z ggole: Wrapping it up in a little function wouldn't be hard, and would provide a good spot for any debug checks on whether the package exists, etc
2016-04-27T14:13:53Z TeMPOraL: jackdaniel: I only wish xD
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2016-04-27T14:14:04Z TeMPOraL: though I've been playing with it a bit, so maybe soon... xD
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2016-04-27T14:14:28Z TeMPOraL: oh never mind about that concatenate
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2016-04-27T14:15:10Z jackdaniel: (defun intern* (string) …)
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2016-04-27T15:06:45Z attila_lendvai: Xach: done
2016-04-27T15:08:32Z Xach: frabjous day
2016-04-27T15:08:50Z dlowe: Calloo, Callay
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2016-04-27T15:25:42Z H4ns: another one bites the dust https://github.com/kennytilton/its-alive
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2016-04-27T15:26:34Z Xach: just til theory y algebra takes off
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2016-04-27T15:29:42Z sebboh`: Bike, ok, C-c C-k is compile and load, so it compiles the entire file before running any of it, so my quicklisp stuff isn't run in time.  This sounds like a common problem, is there a common solution? Like using something else instead of C-c C-k?
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2016-04-27T15:29:58Z Xach: sebboh: eval-when is one option.
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2016-04-27T15:30:04Z Xach: C-c C-l is another
2016-04-27T15:30:14Z Xach: (i hope i haven't missed too much context)
2016-04-27T15:30:22Z sebboh: eval-when is a way to decorate my calls to quicklisp so they get evaluated at compile time?
2016-04-27T15:30:30Z Xach: sebboh: yes.
2016-04-27T15:30:33Z sebboh: Xach, doesn't sound like you have so far. :)
2016-04-27T15:30:49Z Xach: I think it is terrible to put quickload calls in source files, generally.
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2016-04-27T15:30:58Z Xach: Such things should be expressed in the system file.
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2016-04-27T15:33:57Z sebboh: Xach, ok. I have something like (defpackage #:bitgraph (:use #:cl)) and I think I could put log4cl in there as a dependency, too.  But then what? ...How do I make a change then hit some short key sequence to ... compile and load?
2016-04-27T15:34:13Z warweasle: Xach: I've created a new user on github: warweasle. BeerWBeer was confusing people. Is it hard to move quicklisp references to another user?
2016-04-27T15:34:26Z Bike: that's the package, not a system, sebboh
2016-04-27T15:34:28Z Xach: warweasle: not too hard. that is a rare case where a pull request is ok.
2016-04-27T15:34:45Z moore33: wareweasle: Did people think you were offering free beer?
2016-04-27T15:35:29Z warweasle: moore33: Well, free as in beer.
2016-04-27T15:35:43Z Xach: sebboh: the system definition is the way to make sure all packages you want to reference in defpackage are loaded.
2016-04-27T15:36:33Z warweasle: Xach: I'm not sure how a pull request works with quicklisp, but I understand the "Not too hard" part.
2016-04-27T15:37:05Z sebboh: ah, (asdf:defsystem ... :depends on (#:somesystem) :components ((:file ...)))
2016-04-27T15:37:07Z Xach: warweasle: quicklisp projects are tracked in the quicklisp-projects repo. each project has its own directory and text file. you could find & change your files and send a patch.
2016-04-27T15:37:10Z Xach: sebboh: right
2016-04-27T15:37:26Z warweasle: Xach: Ah...now I'm tracking.
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2016-04-27T15:40:43Z sebboh: Xach, supposing I have a project in ~/src/myproject and it has a .asd file which correctly describes the dependencies, both on external systems and certain lisp files in ~/src/myproject. Now I reboot the machine, start emacs, open two of my lisp files, and change them both.  Now I want to see the results of my changes.  I haven't even started slime yet.  What should I do next?
2016-04-27T15:41:02Z Xach: sebboh: start slime, load your system, proceed.
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2016-04-27T15:42:42Z sebboh: slime-load-system from slime-asdf.el ?
2016-04-27T15:42:56Z Xach: No.
2016-04-27T15:43:02Z Xach: (ql:quickload "myproject") for example.
2016-04-27T15:43:15Z Xach: slime-load-system might work - I don't know, I've never used it.
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2016-04-27T15:44:00Z sebboh: If I make a subsequent edit, do I just sa--.  Oh, but, that's what I was doing before, and I switched back to plain .lisp files manually loaded.
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2016-04-27T15:44:56Z sebboh: Thanks for your help.  I'm sure I'll see the missing pieces sometime.  I'll give what I learned so far some time to percolate.
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2016-04-27T15:47:16Z Xach: If you make an edit, you can C-c C-c the form, or C-c C-k the file.
2016-04-27T15:47:26Z Xach: If you add a new dependency, put it in the system and reload the system.
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2016-04-27T15:48:42Z Xach: so many routes to happy fun
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2016-04-27T15:49:46Z sebboh: I don't recall: does the source have to exist in (or be symlinked to) ~/quicklisp/local-projects for (ql:quickload ...) to work, or can I specify a location somehow.  Ack, I can probably answer that for myself, quicklisp source and docs are ... right there. :)
2016-04-27T15:50:09Z Xach: sebboh: anywhere that asdf knows about, quickload can find.
2016-04-27T15:50:23Z Xach: sebboh: ~/quicklisp/local-projects/ is a handy automatic place, but you can add more places
2016-04-27T15:50:27Z sebboh: asdf has a configuration?
2016-04-27T15:50:31Z Xach: so much configuration
2016-04-27T15:50:34Z sebboh: where?
2016-04-27T15:50:47Z Xach: ~/.config/common-lisp/ somewhere, I think.
2016-04-27T15:51:00Z Xach: I find it really hard to remember the details, so I tend to use local-projects instead.
2016-04-27T15:51:03Z sebboh: https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Configurations.html\
2016-04-27T15:51:08Z sebboh: sure
2016-04-27T15:51:10Z Xach: I think recent asdf also scans ~/common-lisp/ for systems.
2016-04-27T15:52:31Z sebboh: I just symlink anything in ~/src/* that has an .asd to ~/quicklisp/local-projects.  ...I can't actually remember the specfic problem that caused me to start recent projects without .asd files.  I'll just have to try that again if I want to discover what it was.
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2016-04-27T16:24:56Z PuercoPop: attila_lendvai: regarding documentation, I agree that a birds eye view of how the code works is the most important part of the documentation, but hu.dwim.* doesn't even have that!
2016-04-27T16:27:17Z PuercoPop: jackdaniel: I would not recommend 5am to anyone. The deftest calls the compiler when running that test everytime. So when the test also calls the compiler, I've ran into heap-exhaustion issues due to not being able to collect the garbage created by the compiler on time. 1am is simpler and better in this regard
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2016-04-27T16:29:14Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: OK, thanks. I'll keep this in mind
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2016-04-27T16:31:46Z PuercoPop: it even has more documentation than code by a LoC metric =) https://github.com/lmj/1am
2016-04-27T16:31:47Z jackdaniel: PuercoPop: 1am looks really nice with it's minimalistic approach :)
2016-04-27T16:31:52Z jackdaniel: yeah, I'm reading it right now
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2016-04-27T16:33:03Z jackdaniel: it's api is similar to the rt's :)
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2016-04-27T16:35:18Z sebboh: PuercoPop: nice.  Thanks.  I can use 1am immediately.
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2016-04-27T16:45:57Z drmeister: Thank you everyone for those tips on interning symbols in strings that read like "FOO:BAR"
2016-04-27T16:46:16Z drmeister: I can guarantee that the package "FOO" exists.
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2016-04-27T16:47:32Z drmeister: These symbols in strings come from scraping C++ code and I have over 1,000 of them formatted in three different ways because I'm nothing if not inconsistent.
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2016-04-27T16:59:34Z sebboh: When I print a 2D array, in sbcl, it comes out on one line for small sizes and multiline (so it looks like a square) when the size is large.  Can I trivially force it to appear square all the time?
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2016-04-27T17:02:32Z jdz: sebboh: i think you can bind *print-right-margin* when printing
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2016-04-27T17:06:58Z phoe_krk: ^
2016-04-27T17:07:17Z sebboh: jdz thanks I'll look into that!
2016-04-27T17:07:22Z phoe_krk: (let ((*print-right-margin* 140)) (print-stuff))
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2016-04-27T17:07:30Z phoe_krk: where 140 is the value you choose that looks the best
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2016-04-27T17:07:46Z sebboh: phoe_krk: ah yes, thank you.
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2016-04-27T17:08:12Z phoe_krk: sebboh: dynamic variables tend to do this; you can easily rebind them and e.g. direct all output into void, or into file.
2016-04-27T17:08:29Z phoe_krk: by rebinding *terminal-io* or *standard-output*.
2016-04-27T17:09:21Z sebboh: Right.  I've learned enough now that I knew I should (let ...) the var right where I need it rather than change it globally.
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2016-04-27T17:19:16Z akkad hunts for gbbopen repo for a pr
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2016-04-27T17:20:58Z sebboh: akkad: volunteer@GBBopen.org
2016-04-27T17:21:01Z sebboh: email
2016-04-27T17:21:49Z akkad: email, how quaint. -scotty.
2016-04-27T17:21:52Z akkad: sebboh: thanks
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2016-04-27T17:23:12Z sebboh: Be sure to include that in your email and recommend they get a repo on somewhere that supports PR!
2016-04-27T17:23:13Z jasom: sebboh: the other advantage of dynamic bindings is that, for most implementations, such bindings are thread-local
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2016-04-27T17:25:40Z sebboh: jasom, ah.  I haven't ever made any threads (well, in lisp) but probably some libraries do.  I'll keep it in mind.
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2016-04-27T17:39:25Z eschulte: is it possible to specify something like a "key" for an eql specializer in a defmethod?  Or maybe a specialized function to use instead of equal?
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2016-04-27T17:40:26Z Bicyclidine: nope. eql or nothing.
2016-04-27T17:40:34Z Bicyclidine: what would you like to do?
2016-04-27T17:40:38Z eudoxia: not to the best of my knowledge, but maybe you can do it in the MOP
2016-04-27T17:40:58Z eschulte: thought so, I'd like to dispatch based on the value tucked behind a key in an alist
2016-04-27T17:41:21Z jackdaniel: eschulte: I think Pascal Costanza created something like this
2016-04-27T17:41:26Z jackdaniel: but not 100% sure
2016-04-27T17:41:30Z Bicyclidine: if you already have an list, you could just put the function to call as part of the alist value.
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2016-04-27T17:41:43Z Bicyclidine: and yes, you can change how specialization works, but the mop does not make it easy.
2016-04-27T17:42:37Z eschulte: untimately I should probably just make these alists objects...
2016-04-27T17:43:01Z eschulte: I've not touched anything MOP related, seems powerful but potentially a time sink to get going
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2016-04-27T17:43:46Z sebboh: What is alist (cf. list)?
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2016-04-27T17:44:10Z eschulte: association list: ((key1 . value1) (key2 . value2) ...)
2016-04-27T17:44:16Z Bicyclidine: are you asking?
2016-04-27T17:44:32Z sebboh: known elsewhere as a map?
2016-04-27T17:44:38Z sebboh: or dictionary?
2016-04-27T17:44:43Z Bicyclidine: it is a particular implementation of a map, yes.
2016-04-27T17:45:13Z sebboh: Thanks.
2016-04-27T17:45:19Z eschulte: not to be confused with a hash-table
2016-04-27T17:46:40Z jackdaniel: eschulte: you want filtered-functions
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2016-04-27T17:47:20Z eschulte: jackdaniel: thanks, found in quicklisp, I'll take a look
2016-04-27T17:47:23Z jackdaniel: https://github.com/pcostanza/filtered-functions
2016-04-27T17:47:28Z jackdaniel: right
2016-04-27T17:47:34Z jackdaniel: glhf :)
2016-04-27T17:47:57Z akkad: how does one escape ~ in format?
2016-04-27T17:48:09Z dlowe: ~~
2016-04-27T17:48:58Z akkad: yeah that worked in the repl, but 	 (format t "ex: ~A s ~~CT/ # Would run 10 works on ~~/CT/" (nth 0 args))))))) errors on Error: Undefined function CT in form (SYMBOL-FUNCTION CT).
2016-04-27T17:49:30Z akkad: nvm, missed one.
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2016-04-27T17:57:45Z sebboh: I am going to write a function that removes the nth column from a 2D matrix, as in what happens when you remove a column from a spreadsheet or a SQL table.  ...Unless that already exists.  How should I search for such a thing?
2016-04-27T17:58:20Z Bicyclidine: you'd have to make a new array and then copy parts of it.
2016-04-27T17:58:24Z Bicyclidine: parts of the original
2016-04-27T17:58:25Z sebboh: Sure
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2016-04-27T18:03:05Z dlowe: well
2016-04-27T18:03:21Z dlowe: you *could* represent your matrix as a complex object with a 2d backing storage
2016-04-27T18:03:30Z dlowe: but that kept the dimensions
2016-04-27T18:03:45Z dlowe: and then you could be clever about copying
2016-04-27T18:04:22Z dlowe: if you wanted to get really clever, you could have a vector that kept a level indirection between indices
2016-04-27T18:04:53Z dlowe: so deleting a column would simply involve copying the indexes in one vector
2016-04-27T18:05:12Z dlowe: all this cleverness assumes a lot of data, of course
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2016-04-27T18:06:03Z sebboh: 2D array of bits, 200x200 max, more often 10x10.
2016-04-27T18:06:43Z Bicyclidine: oh, "of bits" opens up whole new vistas of spending a week designing the structure
2016-04-27T18:06:47Z fchurca: sebboh: have you considered cl-slice ?
2016-04-27T18:07:54Z sebboh: fchurca: nope but I was just looking at array-operations which happens to be by the same author.
2016-04-27T18:10:52Z fchurca: how about ao:partitions?
2016-04-27T18:11:02Z fchurca: *partition
2016-04-27T18:12:11Z fchurca: maybe transposing it first
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2016-04-27T18:30:28Z fchurca: sebboh: maybe something along the lines of this? http://paste.lisp.org/display/314812
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2016-04-27T18:32:24Z ejbs: Where in the CLHS can I read a more detailed description of the non-standard method combinations?
2016-04-27T18:32:40Z Bicyclidine: clhs define-method-combination
2016-04-27T18:32:40Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defi_4.htm
2016-04-27T18:32:42Z Bicyclidine: i think that links it
2016-04-27T18:32:42Z ejbs:  7.6.6.4 Built-in Method Combination Types did not yield what I was looking for
2016-04-27T18:32:50Z Bicyclidine: you mean stuff like append, right?
2016-04-27T18:33:00Z Bicyclidine: or... not
2016-04-27T18:33:04Z Bicyclidine: i don't know what you mean then.
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2016-04-27T18:34:28Z ejbs: Bicyclidine: Yeah, exactly. The examples implement most of them
2016-04-27T18:34:43Z ejbs: And I mean, I could guess what they do and probably be right, but I wanted to make sure
2016-04-27T18:35:24Z Bicyclidine: "yeah exactly" what? what do you want?
2016-04-27T18:36:21Z ejbs: I want to know how the non-standard method combinations append, nconc, progn, + (this one in particular) works. Works as in, what they do
2016-04-27T18:36:33Z ejbs: Yeah exactly, stuff like append
2016-04-27T18:36:51Z Bicyclidine: that's what 7.6.6.4 is supposed to be. what was lacking?
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2016-04-27T18:38:40Z ejbs: Sigh, yeah, I screwed up
2016-04-27T18:38:52Z ejbs: It was there all along after all
2016-04-27T18:38:55Z ejbs: Sorry, thanks
2016-04-27T18:39:08Z Bicyclidine: ok well glad you got what you needed.
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2016-04-27T18:54:19Z sebboh: Style question: (defun remove-column (col arr) ...) or (defun remove-column (arr col) ...) ?
2016-04-27T18:54:46Z sebboh: fchurca: thank you, I'm playing with your paste now.
2016-04-27T18:55:36Z fchurca: sebboh: you're welcome
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2016-04-27T18:56:10Z fchurca: array-operations looks like it'd use (arr col)
2016-04-27T18:57:23Z sebboh: ok, I'll accept that.
2016-04-27T18:57:25Z sebboh: :)
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2016-04-27T19:10:18Z sebboh: for that matter, (aref ...) uses array first.
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2016-04-27T19:24:20Z fchurca: indeed
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2016-04-27T19:35:58Z dim: Clozure-CL users around? I need help to figure out https://github.com/dimitri/pgloader/issues/392 --- I have no such problems when using ccl 1.11 here
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2016-04-27T19:38:06Z rme: dim: What are the steps to reproduce? Just quickload some system?
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2016-04-27T19:39:51Z dim: yeah, pgloader
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2016-04-27T19:40:04Z dim: well you could git clone pgloader then make CL=ccl too
2016-04-27T19:40:13Z dim: that's how the non-lisp users would go at it
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2016-04-27T19:49:14Z rme: dim: Does your user have ASDF installed via a package manger or something?  ccl 1.11 bundles ASDF 3.1.5, so the error message "bordeaux-threads.asd: You need ASDF >= 3.1 to load this system correctly" looks suspicious.
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2016-04-27T19:50:00Z aeth: I have ASDF installed via a package manager (on Fedora), and SBCL still overrides it with a more recent version.
2016-04-27T19:50:12Z aeth: So... ASDF is handled in a very complicated way.
2016-04-27T19:50:32Z dim: rme: dunno, I asked for more information tho
2016-04-27T19:50:52Z dim: aeth: also QL will override asdf in cases, IIRC
2016-04-27T19:51:13Z aeth: Yes, QL has its own ASDF, but not the one that I am using (most of the time) iirc
2016-04-27T19:51:39Z Xach: it is not common for quicklisp to load its own asdf any more. i think it may happen only on clisp.
2016-04-27T19:51:54Z aeth: So I have an ASDF installed via Fedora, an ASDF with each implementation (unless for some reason the implementation's packager uses the really old ASDF that comes with Fedora, which maybe clisp does), and an ASDF with Quicklisp
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2016-04-27T23:54:05Z bullets: um, anyone used quickproject here?
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2016-04-28T00:00:40Z |2701: bullets: xach is in channel right now, he wrote it
2016-04-28T00:00:50Z |2701: just ask ur question tho, maybe someone else will know it
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2016-04-28T00:02:25Z bullets: thanks. In trying to figure this out though I run into more weird stuff
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2016-04-28T00:30:39Z flip214: anybody wants to look at a cl-ppcre issue?  https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre/issues/28
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2016-04-28T00:58:58Z fewdea_: Hi. I have this code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/313018 ... during compile I (reasonably) get a bunch of 'note: deleting unreachable code' messages.
2016-04-28T01:00:09Z fewdea_: the trick of this is that the body sets one of two variables by the end of it, which determines either redirect or display rendered page.
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2016-04-28T01:01:03Z fewdea_: pjb said I should make @body into a lambda function and pass it to another function instead of a macro. that's reasonable, but then i don't know how to determine which variable is set at the end.
2016-04-28T01:01:43Z fewdea_: i don't really grok functional programming yet and my brain hurts. any suggestions?
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2016-04-28T01:04:45Z zalatovo: fewdea_: how long have you been learning about it?
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2016-04-28T01:05:26Z fewdea_: about 4 months. but my code really just looks like how i used to code, but in lisp
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2016-04-28T01:06:07Z Bike: fewdea_: basically, do this, but with defun instead of defmacro, no backquote or comma, and replace (progn ,@body) with (funcall thunk), thunk being an argument to the function
2016-04-28T01:06:35Z Bike: and then you'd use it like (controller-wrapper (:auth-required t) (lambda () ...body...))
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2016-04-28T01:06:49Z Bike: er, i guess you'd change the argument list too.
2016-04-28T01:07:06Z Bike: (defun controller-wrapper (thunk &key auth-required) ...) (controller-wrapper (lambda ...) :auth-required t)
2016-04-28T01:07:59Z fewdea_: so thunk will set either 'redirect-url' or 'rendered-page' ... how do i determine which of those it's returning?
2016-04-28T01:08:36Z fewdea_: i considered returning two values, first either nil or t to indicate which variable the second value is. but that seems contrived
2016-04-28T01:09:00Z zalatovo: fewdea_: didn't notice the rest of your question at first, but you could learn about Haskell if you want to get better at FP. The code you linked is still pretty imperative as you say, and writing in a purely functional language means you can't really write code like you would in an imperative language (unless you try really hard).
2016-04-28T01:09:59Z fewdea_: imperative meaning like python or php?
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2016-04-28T01:10:12Z Zhivago: Why not return (values value 'redirect-url) or (values valid 'rendered-page)?
2016-04-28T01:10:43Z fewdea_: Zhivago, that was what i was considering. it just doesn't feel right though. i can do that
2016-04-28T01:10:47Z Zhivago: Imperative as opposed to declarative -- expressing things in terms of actions rather than relationships. Probably being misused by zalatovo.
2016-04-28T01:11:05Z Zhivago: fewdea: It might not be right -- explore that feeling.
2016-04-28T01:11:40Z fewdea_: it feels like i'm learning to juggle knives lol
2016-04-28T01:11:46Z Zhivago: Note that CL is a procedural language and CL operators are mostly imperative.
2016-04-28T01:12:05Z Zhivago: Prolog would be an example of a procedural declarative language.
2016-04-28T01:12:21Z fewdea_: actions vs relationships... that's quite interesting to hear it like that
2016-04-28T01:13:30Z Zhivago: An imperator says -- do this, do that! They command.
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2016-04-28T01:16:38Z zalatovo: Zhivago: Misused in what sense? As in contrasting functional vs imperative instead of declarative vs imperative?
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2016-04-28T01:23:56Z Zhivago: Yes.
2016-04-28T01:24:34Z Zhivago: You can have functional systems expressed in imperative terms.
2016-04-28T01:24:52Z White_Flame: (I would personally question the declarative-ness, and non-imperative-ness of Prolog, when actually used for applications and not just queries)
2016-04-28T01:25:08Z White_Flame: even in queries, the order of assertions matter, which isn't very declarativey
2016-04-28T01:25:30Z zalatovo: Zhivago: What do you mean by functional systems expressed in imperative terms?
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2016-04-28T01:28:25Z Zhivago: White: There's nothing undeclarative about declarations building upon those that lexicographically precede them.
2016-04-28T01:28:43Z Zhivago: White: And there is a reason that I put prolog down as procedural.
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2016-04-28T01:30:01Z fewdea_: i've got it. I shouldn't be waiting until the end of the wrapper to redirect. in doing this I continue executing code even after I know it's pointless. security risk and bad form. so the lambda function will only ever return a rendered page and redirect happens immediately!
2016-04-28T01:31:56Z fewdea_: and here i thought i was being clever. silly rabbit...
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2016-04-28T01:48:56Z aeth: PuercoPop: It looks like I wound up using package-inferred-system. Thanks.
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2016-04-28T02:14:22Z White_Flame: Zhivago: The case of ordering in prolog isn't about building up declarations on top of each other, it's that the order of assertion determines the search order.  It directly determines the order of the process counter through the search algorithm, which in my mind, if you're controlling the PC directly, you haven't stepped out of imperative into declarative yet
2016-04-28T02:14:57Z Zhivago: That's the procedural aspect.
2016-04-28T02:15:22Z Zhivago: You're still expressing them declaratively.
2016-04-28T02:16:01Z White_Flame: I would say that it is declarative by happenstance, if you don't happen to stumble upon some ordering issue :)
2016-04-28T02:16:28Z Zhivago: Declarativeness is about how you express things, that's all.
2016-04-28T02:16:55Z White_Flame: then it's exactly as declarative as DEFUN or int main() ?
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2016-04-28T02:17:35Z White_Flame: just curious about the definitions of the term
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2016-04-28T02:18:52Z Zhivago: In the case of C, it's a declaration.
2016-04-28T02:19:30Z Zhivago: In the case of CL, it's probably also a declaration, but the procedural nature of the definition makes it a bit trickier.
2016-04-28T02:19:39Z White_Flame: I would agree with that.  But is "this is a declaration" the same as "declarative programming"?
2016-04-28T02:19:56Z White_Flame: right, I kind of dislike that most of the toplevel forms are mutators against the image state, rather than declarations
2016-04-28T02:20:04Z Zhivago: A declarative programming language expresses things in terms of declarations.
2016-04-28T02:21:13Z White_Flame: and what makes something a declaration, vs an imperative statement?  I would think that non-dependency order relationship does find its way in the mix
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2016-04-28T02:21:53Z Zhivago: One describes, the other instructs.
2016-04-28T02:22:11Z White_Flame: well, I would call prolog assertions as "instructs" then
2016-04-28T02:22:17Z Zhivago: "There is a white house." vs. "Build a white house there."
2016-04-28T02:22:31Z White_Flame: because it doesn't just give data to the machine, it tells it what exact order to process it among its peers
2016-04-28T02:23:01Z Zhivago: Describing the order of processing is still descriptive.
2016-04-28T02:23:10Z White_Flame: then all imperative is descriptive
2016-04-28T02:23:18Z Zhivago: See above.
2016-04-28T02:23:38Z White_Flame: but a big problem is that prolog doesn't have direct statements for search ordering, it's implicit in the source code ordering
2016-04-28T02:23:57Z dmiles: White_Flame: which version of prolog?
2016-04-28T02:24:05Z Zhivago: Why is that any more of an issue than lexical scoping?
2016-04-28T02:24:33Z White_Flame: dmiles: just the basic case of doing an infinite query which locks up the machine, vs returning the first result quickly
2016-04-28T02:25:02Z dmiles: White_Flame: ah so not XSB with tabling
2016-04-28T02:25:04Z White_Flame: Zhivago: lexical scoping seems orthogonal to whether something is imperative or not
2016-04-28T02:25:19Z Zhivago: Sure -- but it's implicit in the source code ordering ...
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2016-04-28T02:25:55Z White_Flame: it doesn't affect processing order; it affects access and visibility
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2016-04-28T02:26:08Z White_Flame: (though the assignments in scope declarations certainly could define processing order)
2016-04-28T02:26:41Z Zhivago: And why does affecting processing ordering have anything to do with declarativeness? You seem to be confusing it with proceduralism.
2016-04-28T02:26:44Z White_Flame: To me, the larger question is "is it imperative" or "is it not imperative", where imperative means the programmer directs where the PC goes
2016-04-28T02:27:20Z Zhivago: As opposed to declarative, where the PC is not directed by the programmer? :)
2016-04-28T02:27:27Z White_Flame: right
2016-04-28T02:27:47Z White_Flame: "declarative programming" as a term
2016-04-28T02:27:47Z Zhivago: Presumably it just decides what it wants to do by itself.
2016-04-28T02:28:11Z White_Flame: right, you give it data, a problem, etc, and it manages what to do, instead of being instructed through each step of processing
2016-04-28T02:28:19Z Zhivago: If that's what you mean, you are insane. If it is't, then your assertion is problematic.
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2016-04-28T02:28:34Z White_Flame: and obviously the model gets fuzzy when you consider CPU reording and logical vs physical and whatever
2016-04-28T02:28:34Z Zhivago: So, it's still being directed by the programmer, who described the problem to it ...
2016-04-28T02:28:56Z Zhivago: You're conflating imperative and procedural.
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2016-04-28T02:29:54Z White_Flame: what would be an example of procedural, but non-imperative?
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2016-04-28T02:30:15Z Zhivago: Prolog.
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2016-04-28T02:30:23Z White_Flame: but prolog is imperative, too
2016-04-28T02:30:35Z White_Flame: you tell it to assert, you tell it to retract, you manually manage threads, etc
2016-04-28T02:30:35Z Zhivago: Not in its rules.
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2016-04-28T02:30:58Z White_Flame: you manage what to search in what order and when to return results
2016-04-28T02:31:07Z Zhivago: Those are procedural issues.
2016-04-28T02:31:17Z White_Flame: the 2nd line, yeah
2016-04-28T02:31:54Z White_Flame: let me ask this:  does "imperative" require mutation?
2016-04-28T02:32:20Z Zhivago: No.
2016-04-28T02:32:36Z White_Flame: ok, then what does "imperative" mean?
2016-04-28T02:32:46Z White_Flame: (I'm in agreement on not requiring mutation)
2016-04-28T02:33:21Z Zhivago: Consider a simple example.
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2016-04-28T02:33:47Z Zhivago: make-foo <- this is an imperative expression.
2016-04-28T02:33:50Z White_Flame would prefer a defintiion with boundaries more than an example...
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2016-04-28T02:34:16Z Zhivago: So, we may have (make-foo bar) as a constructive imperative expression.
2016-04-28T02:35:12Z Zhivago: As opposed to (foo bar) which might be a declarative expression that there is a (foo bar).
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2016-04-28T02:36:38Z White_Flame: If code that regards "bar" before the (foo bar) in a single file behaves differently from the code after (foo bar), would it still be a declarative expression?
2016-04-28T02:37:24Z White_Flame: considering all peer top-level expressions
2016-04-28T02:37:28Z Zhivago: Sure.
2016-04-28T02:37:39Z Zhivago: Just as with lexical scoping.
2016-04-28T02:38:09Z White_Flame: but I still don't have your definition of imperative, and why this would not be imperative
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2016-04-28T02:38:44Z Zhivago: I've given it repeatedly -- here's another copy.
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2016-04-28T02:38:53Z Zhivago: >#lisp> Imperative as opposed to declarative -- expressing things in terms of actions rather than relationships. Probably being misused by zalatovo.
2016-04-28T02:38:56Z Zhivago: >#lisp> An imperator says -- do this, do that! They command.
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2016-04-28T02:39:46Z White_Flame: what about the relationship between the statements?  is it "do this, THEN do that", or just "do this, do that, unordered"
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2016-04-28T02:42:33Z White_Flame: that hard ordering relationship is whas I put under the "imperative" umbrella, and seek to break from
2016-04-28T02:42:59Z White_Flame: unless you have a more apt term it would fall under
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2016-04-28T02:48:54Z drmeister: Common Lisp doesn't have any way to directly call a function does it?
2016-04-28T02:49:23Z White_Flame: for what definition of "function" and what definition of "call"? :-P
2016-04-28T02:49:24Z rme: I don't understand. It does that all day long.
2016-04-28T02:49:36Z drmeister: I mean - it either uses fdefinition to look up the function for a symbol and then call that or you can inline a function.
2016-04-28T02:49:41Z warweasle: drmeister: What's this? It seems like is should but I've known you for too long to think it can be.
2016-04-28T02:50:00Z White_Flame: drmeister: (funcall var-which-holds-a-function-object)?
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2016-04-28T02:50:19Z warweasle: drmeister: Oh. Maybe it's like boheim GC and can swap out that pointer in memeory.
2016-04-28T02:51:00Z drmeister: It's a question about how the implementation does the call.
2016-04-28T02:51:36Z drmeister: Sorry, my question is ill-formed.  Thinking...
2016-04-28T02:51:53Z drmeister: Let me expand a bit.
2016-04-28T02:52:10Z White_Flame: (macroexpand 'drmeister)
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2016-04-28T02:53:17Z drmeister: I just added (core:intrinsic-call "foo" <args>) to Clasp.   Clasp's compiler(s) turn this into a direct call to the Cee function named "foo".   The symbol "foo" is resolved at link time.
2016-04-28T02:54:07Z drmeister: In Clasp when I compile (bar 1 2) the compilers essentially turn this into (funcall (fdefinition 'foo) 1 2).
2016-04-28T02:55:09Z Bike: it doesn't have to. if this form is in the same compilation unit that bar is defined in the compiled code can be more direct.
2016-04-28T02:55:16Z drmeister: Or I can proclaim bar as inline and then the code for "bar" will be inlined.
2016-04-28T02:55:49Z drmeister: Now I see.
2016-04-28T02:56:08Z drmeister: You and others have said this to me before but it's never sunk in.
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2016-04-28T02:56:41Z drmeister: If the form is in the same compilation unit as bar then the call can be more direct.
2016-04-28T02:56:44Z drmeister: Can it be inlined?
2016-04-28T02:56:50Z Bike: by "more direct" i mean essentially that the fdefinition is precompiled
2016-04-28T02:57:01Z Bike: unless there's a notinline, i think it can be, yes.
2016-04-28T02:57:10Z drmeister: Automatically?  Without declaring it inline?
2016-04-28T02:57:12Z drmeister: I see.
2016-04-28T02:57:13Z drmeister: Hmmm
2016-04-28T02:57:21Z Bike: i don't know if any implementations actually do, though.
2016-04-28T02:57:36Z drmeister: I don't do this in bclasp because I don't inline at the CL level in bclasp.
2016-04-28T02:57:51Z drmeister: I don't know if cclasp/cleavir do this.  I don't think so.
2016-04-28T02:58:24Z drmeister: (eq this "call more directly")
2016-04-28T02:58:50Z Bike: oh, slight correction, if foo is declared notinline then the call basically has to be the (funcall (fdefinition ...) ...) bit
2016-04-28T02:58:58Z Bike: this is 3.2.2.3 btw
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2016-04-28T03:00:16Z drmeister: Thank you, and thanks everyone.  I see where my confusion came from.
2016-04-28T03:02:13Z drmeister: Inlining is explicitly dealt with in Common Lisp - (funcall (fdefinition 'foo) ...) is necessary for Common Lisp to work.  I never clued in to the idea that (funcall <linked-function> ...) was an optimization strategy for CL.
2016-04-28T03:03:12Z Bike: it's kind of subtle... also i think a little weird on modern systems, from what i remember of how things work in C/nix
2016-04-28T03:03:54Z White_Flame: drmeister: Just consider the optimizations you apply for peer LABELS functions
2016-04-28T03:04:20Z White_Flame: many of those could apply to peer DEFUNs in a compilation unit
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2016-04-28T03:05:42Z White_Flame: also, I broke my SLIME, fiddling around with disassembling some of these in SBCL.  No matter what I type, I get "The variable * is unbound", probably because it's trying to roll it over to **
2016-04-28T03:05:43Z drmeister: I don't know if Cleavir does those optimizations.
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2016-04-28T03:06:10Z White_Flame: not sure if bug or counts as pebcak
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2016-04-28T03:10:32Z drmeister: I dont see any instructions like that in Cleavir
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2016-04-28T03:10:57Z drmeister: Unless I'm missing something.
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2016-04-28T03:12:02Z drmeister: beach included a lot of low level instructions - but nothing jumps out at me.
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2016-04-28T03:18:54Z drmeister: So either (1) I misunderstand something (2) it's an implementation detail and I'm supposed to provide it somehow (3) beach hasn't implemented it yet.
2016-04-28T03:19:15Z drmeister: I'm betting $5 on (1)
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2016-04-28T03:19:54Z Bike: beach would probably put something in regardless of implementation, since like white flame said it's pretty usual for labelses
2016-04-28T03:20:24Z drmeister: Once I get cclasp compiled again I'll see what labels does.
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2016-04-28T03:21:39Z drmeister: I'm kind of remembering an "enclose" instruction feeding straight into a "funcall" instruction but it's really hazy.
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2016-04-28T03:39:07Z pillton: This is a situation where having more than one compiler would be interesting.
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2016-04-28T03:47:05Z White_Flame: or where a function could be recompiled multiple times with different assumptions
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2016-04-28T03:53:26Z drmeister: I have two compilers.
2016-04-28T03:53:33Z drmeister: Clasp has two compilers.
2016-04-28T03:54:26Z Bike: and it seems pretty interesting!
2016-04-28T03:55:16Z pillton: I'm talking about a compiler which doesn't follow the common lisp specification precisely.
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2016-04-28T04:13:02Z brpocock: \whois pillton
2016-04-28T04:13:29Z brpocock facepalm. 
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2016-04-28T04:24:15Z Zhivago: What is a brpo?
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2016-04-28T04:35:24Z brfpocock ?
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2016-04-28T04:35:52Z drmeister: pillton: I'm asking in #llvm about the aliasing issue that you mentioned wrt LTO - I haven't heard a response yet.
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2016-04-28T05:05:37Z drmeister: The drew the analogy to the kind of undefined behavior that can come about when one moves a function into a header file and inlining leads to different behavior.  I can deal with that kind of problem.
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2016-04-28T06:17:14Z aeth: In case anyone missed it, there is a Lisp game jam starting in about 22 hours at https://itch.io/jam/spring-2016-lisp-game-jam
2016-04-28T06:17:22Z aeth: The channel for lisp games is #lispgames
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2016-04-28T06:19:05Z aeth: Most CL entries will probably be with cl-sdl2 and cl-opengl, but really you can make anything into a game, so it's a good chance to learn whatever library you want (e.g. a web framework).
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2016-04-28T06:25:06Z zRecursi`: aeth: Is it practical to program AlphaGo using CL ?
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2016-04-28T06:26:36Z loke: CL can be used to program pretty much anything.
2016-04-28T06:26:37Z aeth: zRecursi`: Yes, you can do machine learning in Common Lisp with libraries that interface with graphics cards. It's mostly on the GPU these days, anyway.
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2016-04-28T06:26:55Z aeth: zRecursi`: No, you probably can't do it in 10 days, but if you do wind up making a champion-defeating Go app in 10 days, you will win the game jam.
2016-04-28T06:27:18Z aeth: If you want to focus on AI, you should make a board game or a grand strategy game or some other game that doesn't require a lot of art or any physics.
2016-04-28T06:27:22Z Zhivago: You need to distinguish between running alphago and training alphago.
2016-04-28T06:27:51Z zRecursi`: yeah
2016-04-28T06:28:06Z aeth: zRecursi`: Yes, but if it's a game jam, I am assuming that you will have to design, program, and train such an AI during the 10 day duration of the game jam for it to be a valid entry
2016-04-28T06:28:13Z aeth: Zhivago: ^
2016-04-28T06:28:29Z aeth: At least, if the AI system is your entry.
2016-04-28T06:28:42Z aeth: I'm not running the game jam, though. You'd have to ask.
2016-04-28T06:29:18Z aeth: (The machine learning library is out of scope of the game jam, though. So you could do most of the work in advance.)
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2016-04-28T06:32:14Z zRecursi`: ok
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2016-04-28T06:34:55Z aeth: If you have rules questions, itch.io says dto, davexunit, and oGMo are running the game jam. davexunit is a Scheme programmer, and would have to be asked in #lispgames
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2016-04-28T06:36:05Z aeth: I hope someone actually does an AI-driven entry just because it'll be very different from the 2D arcade-style action entries that will probably dominate this game jam.
2016-04-28T06:37:09Z zRecursi`: IIRC, One CL expert said Scheme is a reduced CL ?
2016-04-28T06:38:21Z aeth: It's not quite that simple. Scheme has call/cc and CL doesn't. Scheme has also introduced some new features that CL hasn't because the Scheme standard is being continually updated, unlike the CL standard. Scheme also requires tail calls to be optimized, which really does change how code is written since you can't rely on that style in portable CL.
2016-04-28T06:39:10Z aeth: Scheme is a much smaller language, and you can translate most of it to CL. e.g. http://mumble.net/~jar/pseudoscheme/
2016-04-28T06:39:48Z aeth: Also, Scheme predates CL, so the intent behind the language isn't to make a smaller CL.
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2016-04-28T06:40:38Z zRecursi`: seems interesting
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2016-04-28T06:42:41Z aeth: Two other things that make Scheme very different from CL (sometimes) are that CL has CLOS, a standard object system, and CL has keywords (e.g. :foo)
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2016-04-28T06:43:32Z zRecursi`: and there os cl-cont similar to call/cc ?
2016-04-28T06:43:44Z zRecursi`: s/os/is
2016-04-28T06:43:51Z aeth: By the way, Scheme's standard (except maybe r6rs, which most implementations did not adopt) is *very* small, not even including hash tables. It's hard to write portable Scheme. It's a little annoying to write portable CL, but there are libraries for that.
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2016-04-28T06:44:59Z aeth: zRecursi`: iirc, you can't get a real call/cc in CL because it is too powerful and would do things like break the very advanced exception system that CL has.
2016-04-28T06:45:14Z aeth: But I am not sure, I could have the wrong reason.
2016-04-28T06:46:27Z zRecursi`: Up to now, there seems few real app developed using Scheme ?
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2016-04-28T06:48:07Z aeth: People don't write real apps in Scheme, they have to write them for implementations like Guile or Racket or Chicken. The Scheme language standard is too small for that. This is getting somewhat off-topic though. #lisp is for Common Lisp, #scheme is for Scheme, and ##lisp is for the Lisp family.
2016-04-28T06:48:34Z zRecursi`: yeah
2016-04-28T06:49:04Z zRecursi`: Just mention it
2016-04-28T06:49:52Z aeth: Generally, though, Scheme is used as a scripting language rather than something to write an entire application in.
2016-04-28T06:50:15Z zRecursi`: I think so.
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2016-04-28T06:51:12Z aeth: Afaik, CL can't be sandboxed. Some Schemes can be. This is an advantage, which means Scheme could even be useful as a CL scripting language if implemented properly.
2016-04-28T06:51:48Z aeth: Afaik, to sandbox Lisp, you'd have to write some sort of Lisp subset, rather than a full CL.
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2016-04-28T06:52:40Z zRecursi`: Do we need sandbox lisp ?
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2016-04-28T06:52:53Z aeth: I'm not entirely sure about the sandbox thing, though. If there is a potentially sandboxable CL, it would be SICL. https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
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2016-04-28T06:53:57Z aeth: zRecursi`: There are several advantages to a sandbox, e.g. a safe eval for an IRC bot that evaluates Lisp code (obviously niche, though)
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2016-04-28T06:54:20Z aeth: Less niche would be a game or other large application with an add-on server that doesn't have to be heavily moderated.
2016-04-28T06:54:30Z aeth: Even emacs has an add-on server now.
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2016-04-28T06:55:34Z zRecursi`: I guess CL will use itself to do such a thing
2016-04-28T06:55:58Z zRecursi`: not other language
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2016-04-28T06:56:56Z aeth: A sandbox is the only use case I can think of where CL itself would need to use a general purpose scripting language.
2016-04-28T06:57:22Z zRecursi`: oh
2016-04-28T06:57:29Z aeth: Obviously there are many more reasons to use something with C or C++.
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2016-04-28T06:58:46Z pillton: You can set *read-eval* to nil and then validate what you read before you evaluate it.
2016-04-28T06:58:48Z zRecursi`: aeth: Have you heard of https://github.com/cisco/ChezScheme just seen on reddit ?
2016-04-28T06:58:51Z aeth: What's nice about CL is you can write code that's fairly low level (using declare, etc.) that's designed to be fast, and then in the same program use CL at a high level more like a scripting language. I guess the main limitation for how low CL can go is that CL has garbage collection. There are probably a few more.
2016-04-28T07:00:03Z aeth: zRecursi`: Yes, but it's probably too late for that Scheme to get users. Schemes aren't compatible with each other, so it's probably much harder for a commercial Scheme to exist than a commercial CL.
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2016-04-28T07:00:19Z aeth: Imo, libraries are more important than the language itself most of the time.
2016-04-28T07:00:29Z zRecursi`: agree
2016-04-28T07:00:50Z aeth: You can make a language that's 20% better (assuming you could quantify such a thing) than CL, but if it doesn't have Quicklisp, it's probably not as useful.
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2016-04-28T07:02:36Z aeth: Off-topic, but TheOS would make a nice name for a competitor to TempleOS, since it would be a pun on The OS (as in Operating System) and theos.
2016-04-28T07:03:12Z aeth: If anyone wants to make a LispOS in that style and was only lacking a name.
2016-04-28T07:04:01Z aeth: (People who have their IRC clients ignore join/parts will not understand.)
2016-04-28T07:04:34Z zRecursi`: ignore join/parts means ?
2016-04-28T07:05:00Z aeth: IRC clients display joins, and parts/quits. On large channels it can make it hard to follow conversations, so you can filter them.
2016-04-28T07:05:22Z zRecursi`: i see
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2016-04-28T08:30:06Z flip214: does anyone have an idea about https://github.com/edicl/cl-ppcre/issues/28?
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2016-04-28T09:46:47Z H4ns: flip214: do you see the same behavior on different implementations?
2016-04-28T09:47:02Z flip214: H4ns: not yet tried
2016-04-28T09:47:32Z H4ns: flip214: would be worth it, maybe.  could be an optimizer issue, or something with over-aggressive declarations.
2016-04-28T09:48:42Z flip214: trying via ECL right now.
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2016-04-28T09:50:17Z jackdaniel: wait for it, wait for it... boom :)
2016-04-28T09:50:29Z flip214: H4ns: clisp says "SCHAR: index 3 should be less than the length of the string"
2016-04-28T09:51:00Z flip214: and stops, for the (PRINT (LIST ...)) form
2016-04-28T09:51:34Z H4ns: flip214: so there
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2016-04-28T09:52:30Z flip214: ECL gives a similar error, too
2016-04-28T09:52:37Z flip214: so it's an SBCL bug
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2016-04-28T09:57:13Z flip214: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/1576121
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2016-04-28T10:04:49Z jdz: i have safety limited to 1, and i get «Invalid index 3 for (SIMPLE-ARRAY CHARACTER (3)), should be a non-negative integer below 3.» in SBCL 1.3.4.104
2016-04-28T10:05:21Z jdz: i'd prefer people to stop declaring (safety 0) all over the place
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2016-04-28T10:06:37Z loke: jdz: Agreed. Thankfully there is that SBCL optimisation level restriction parameter that can be set.
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2016-04-28T10:08:41Z jdz: yes, that's what i have set to 1
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2016-04-28T10:22:24Z sepi: Xach: I get the following error http://paste.lisp.org/display/314881 when trying to compile css-selectors using sbcl 1.2.4 on debian with the 2016-04-21 quicklisp distro.
2016-04-28T10:22:54Z sepi: Xach: Any idea what's wrong there?
2016-04-28T10:24:40Z XachX_: sepi: no. The cause is listed in the compilation output earlier than you pasted.
2016-04-28T10:25:00Z XachX_: Check for s WARNING or ERROR
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2016-04-28T10:30:56Z sepi: XachX_: Seems to be an error with sbcl 1.2.4 https://github.com/AccelerationNet/css-selectors/issues/15
2016-04-28T10:31:24Z XachX_: sepi: easy enough
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2016-04-28T10:35:28Z sepi: It's working with sbcl 1.3.3
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2016-04-28T10:38:15Z XachX_: Mycket bra!
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2016-04-28T10:42:16Z loke: Xach: You speak Swedish?
2016-04-28T10:42:28Z loke: Jag menar, pratar du svenska?
2016-04-28T10:42:56Z XachX_: Tjo
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2016-04-28T10:54:40Z sepi: How come I can't create a hash-table with :test #'string= but #'equal works?
2016-04-28T10:56:18Z jdz: because that's how it's specified to work
2016-04-28T10:56:21Z jdz: clhs make-hash-table
2016-04-28T10:56:21Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm
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2016-04-28T10:57:50Z sepi: jdz: oh, I overread this. Makes sense now
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2016-04-28T11:21:10Z igam: sepi: that's because the precondition for gethash is (typep key 't).  If you used :key 'string= then it would break eg. on integers.
2016-04-28T11:21:16Z spacebat: sepi: there's a library, cl-custom-hash-table that you might be interested in
2016-04-28T11:21:42Z igam: sepi: cf. Liskov's Substitution Principle.
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2016-04-28T11:21:50Z spacebat: but for many purposes its not needed
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2016-04-28T11:31:39Z sepi: spacebat: Thanks but I'M happy with the :test #'equal one
2016-04-28T11:32:41Z sepi: Btw, what lib would you use to concatenate to the path of an URI?
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2016-04-28T11:47:06Z Xach: sepi: quri seems promising
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2016-04-28T12:04:11Z sepi: Xach: It's nice up to the point that I can't assign a path with non uriencoded chars in it. puri has the same "problem". I guess I'll have to do some parsing myself first and individually urlencode the parts of the path first
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2016-04-28T12:17:44Z Jonsky: (adjoin '((2 . 4)) '((3 . 4) (2 . 4) (1 . 4)) :test #'equal) ==> (((2 . 4)) (3 . 4) (2 . 4) (1 . 4))
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2016-04-28T12:18:01Z Jonsky: I cannot figure out why
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2016-04-28T12:18:36Z Jonsky: Was expect to see only one instance for each cons
2016-04-28T12:18:45Z Jonsky: s/expect/expecting
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2016-04-28T12:20:28Z jdz: Jonsky: none of the elements of your list are '((2 . 4))
2016-04-28T12:20:42Z Jonsky: ooops
2016-04-28T12:20:46Z edgar-rft: Jonsky '((2 . 4)) is not equal to '(2 . 4)
2016-04-28T12:21:12Z Jonsky: sorry
2016-04-28T12:21:21Z edgar-rft: no problem :-)
2016-04-28T12:21:25Z Jonsky: I got the def of adjoin wrong
2016-04-28T12:22:50Z Jonsky: should have used union
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2016-04-28T12:27:50Z igam: (adjoin '(2 . 4) '((3 . 4) (2 . 4) (1 . 4)) :test #'equal) #| --> ((3 . 4) (2 . 4) (1 . 4)) |#
2016-04-28T12:28:10Z igam: (union '((2 . 4))  '((3 . 4) (2 . 4) (1 . 4)) :test #'equal) #| --> ((3 . 4) (2 . 4) (1 . 4)) |#
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2016-04-28T13:15:34Z attila_lendvai: anyone knows off the top of his head how to convince ASDF not to use its own cl-ppcre in the ext/ directory, but rather my own in my workspace?
2016-04-28T13:19:16Z attila_lendvai: it's 'make ext-clear'
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2016-04-28T14:10:17Z sepi: is (cadr (multiple-value-list (values 1 2 3))) the canonical way to get the second value when not using multiple-value-bind or is there a shorter form?
2016-04-28T14:11:02Z Bike: (nth-value 1 (values 1 2 3))
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2016-04-28T14:13:14Z Moosef: join emacs
2016-04-28T14:13:46Z jdz: i refuse!
2016-04-28T14:13:57Z TeMPOraL: jdz: resistance is futile
2016-04-28T14:14:07Z sepi: Bike: thanks, my form seemed a bit too cumbersome
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2016-04-28T14:23:25Z dim: also see about #'second rather than #'cadr
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2016-04-28T14:25:18Z sepi: dim: true, I think scheme got me off of using #'first and #'second
2016-04-28T14:26:06Z moore33: Boo #'first and #'second
2016-04-28T14:26:10Z moore33 is old school
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2016-04-28T14:27:50Z jdz: when you see yourself writing code that uses #'seventh you know the code is heading in the wrong direction
2016-04-28T14:28:08Z moore33: Well, yes.
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2016-04-28T14:34:41Z phoe_work: Hey guys. Is there any "official" way of instructing Parenscript on how it should indent its code?
2016-04-28T14:35:52Z phoe_work: I'm having trouble making it work with RequireJS's modules, which have a define([...], function (...) {...}); form.
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2016-04-28T14:37:57Z phoe_work: First of all, [...] prints all in one line; second, (...) prints all in one line; third, I'd like newlines to happen before *each* opening brace in {...}, no matter at what depth or in what context they are.
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2016-04-28T14:39:52Z Zhivago: Why not just run the output through a js beautifier?
2016-04-28T14:40:30Z phoe_work: Zhivago: oh, I didn't think of that.
2016-04-28T14:41:17Z phoe_work: Now I need to find a console JS beautifier that can accept input from STDIN, hook it into my Common Lisp and get output back in to return it, which is a different problem.
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2016-04-28T14:41:58Z phoe_work: Do you know any program in particular I should start with, or am I on my own on this one?
2016-04-28T14:42:49Z Zhivago: Perhaps https://www.npmjs.com/package/js-beautify
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2016-04-28T14:56:55Z phoe_work: Thanks!
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2016-04-28T14:57:47Z sebboh:  So, I presume there's some great, fundamental need for EVAL to take place in a null environment.  What is it?
2016-04-28T14:58:09Z sebboh: 'Cause from my neophyte point of view, it just seems neutered.
2016-04-28T14:58:27Z warweasle: sebboh: Perhaps executing untrusted code?
2016-04-28T14:58:49Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: there is not
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2016-04-28T14:59:13Z Bicyclidine: it's one of those things where the standard went with the least common denominator of what existed at the time
2016-04-28T14:59:15Z sebboh: Sure, eval in javascript has that problem.  For my lisp code, sounds like I should have the option to trust my code.
2016-04-28T14:59:50Z sebboh: Bicyclidine: is it configurable in sbcl?
2016-04-28T15:00:33Z Bicyclidine: an implementation can't decide that a standard function is going to take more arguments, if that's what you mean
2016-04-28T15:01:18Z Bicyclidine: sbcl has an eval-in-lexenv, but it's totally internal, as is the lexenv structure
2016-04-28T15:01:28Z phoe_work: sebboh: nothing stops you from writing your own eval that does not neuter the environment, I think. Either that or look around for someone who already did it, because this actually sounds like something one would do at some point in time.
2016-04-28T15:01:51Z sebboh: Lemme think...  Okay, is there an (eval* ...) or (eval+ ...) that does what I expected eval to do?  Ie, be more like javascript'
2016-04-28T15:01:52Z Bicyclidine: what stops you is that the implementation's environments are opaque
2016-04-28T15:01:54Z sebboh: s eval?
2016-04-28T15:02:13Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: hang on, are you trying to do something like (let ((x 4)) (eval 'x)) and expecting 4?
2016-04-28T15:02:26Z Bicyclidine: because that's a different matter
2016-04-28T15:02:52Z sebboh: phoe_work: it does.  Bicyclidine lemme write up what I want to do. It might be equiv to what you just said.
2016-04-28T15:03:50Z warweasle: I think there is a safe-read package.
2016-04-28T15:04:18Z warweasle: cl-secure-read
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2016-04-28T15:05:20Z sebboh: (defun -- gah, apparently I am on-call for May. blah
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2016-04-28T15:07:05Z sebboh: (defun make-a-thing (input) (eval (read* (concat "(myfunction " thing " )"))))
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2016-04-28T15:07:28Z Bicyclidine: what is input vs. thing
2016-04-28T15:07:37Z Jonsky: I tried (step (fac 4)) in sbcl and expected to see something like (fac 3) and then  (fac 2) when I typed STEP. But I just saw the result 24 straight away. Any thing I can tweak?
2016-04-28T15:07:48Z sebboh: s/thing "/input "/
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2016-04-28T15:08:35Z Bicyclidine: Jonsky: iirc sbcl's stepper is kind of shit. pjb has one, look up informatimago stepper or suchlike
2016-04-28T15:09:11Z Jonsky: Bicyclidine: good to know it's not my fault this time. Thanks!
2016-04-28T15:09:52Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: i don't understand what that has to do with environments, what read* does, and why you can't do (funcall #'myfunction (read input))
2016-04-28T15:10:57Z sebboh: Note my surely incorrect use of read, etc.  Let's skip my murky example and talk about the one your provided. Yes, I'd like eval to get the value of x, 4 in this case.
2016-04-28T15:11:30Z Bicyclidine: then you're out of luck, because eval is a normal function, and that is not how functions work: they do not have access to their caller
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2016-04-28T15:14:07Z Bicyclidine: sebboh: like, consider how you'd have to implement that eval: it would have to look up the symbol "X" somewhere. And you want that "somewhere" to be the environment of the caller, which functions don't usually have access to and isn't an argument to eval, so it would have to be a dynamic variable or something...
2016-04-28T15:14:37Z Bicyclidine: but having all lexical environments be dynamically available implies, well, that they're more than lexical, and tons of optimizations (like having a call stack) are inhibited.
2016-04-28T15:14:39Z sebboh: I thought the whole point of eval was to build forms and then run them, ie, you use code to write code.  Which, by the way, is how I get most things done. I compose SQL by taking results from other SQL and editing it with emacs macros or regular expressions or whatever is best for the matter at hand.  I heard that called metaprogramming but I call it "doing it the hard way, the easy way!". :) ...I can't do that in lisp yet.
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2016-04-28T15:15:47Z sebboh: Bicyclidine: ah, that's right. You reminded me of something I learned last time I asked about eval; it's not a macro, it's a function.
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2016-04-28T15:16:33Z sebboh: Thus, what you said.  The value passed was 'x, that is, a symbol named x, not the variable named x with the value 4.
2016-04-28T15:16:48Z Bicyclidine: yes. if it was the value then it would already be evaluated
2016-04-28T15:16:55Z sebboh: Right.
2016-04-28T15:17:45Z Bicyclidine: eval isn't used as much in CL as it is in js, i think, because we have funcall and apply, which usually suffice
2016-04-28T15:17:57Z igam: If it was a macro it would be quite useless: (let ((x '(+ 1 2))) (meval x)) --> (+ 1 2)
2016-04-28T15:18:50Z sebboh: (eval (let ((x '(+ 1 2))))) ?
2016-04-28T15:19:06Z sebboh: ... *cough*
2016-04-28T15:19:31Z Bicyclidine: nil
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2016-04-28T15:19:55Z igam: (defmacro meval (expression) (if (symbolp expression) expression …)) (let ((x '(+ 1 2))) (meval x)) #| --> (+ 1 2) |#
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2016-04-28T15:30:13Z moore33: sebboh: If I understand what you're saying about your programming style in SQL, we don't want to see the expansions in our Lisp source code. We write macros that generate forms that only the compiler or interpreter see.
2016-04-28T15:31:46Z flip214: Is there some way I can put a FLET (or LABELS) in the body of an ITERATE, so that the function has access to the driver variables?
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2016-04-28T15:32:12Z flip214: the only idea I have up to now is a MACROLET outside
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2016-04-28T15:37:58Z igam: flip214: that really would depend on the way iterate is implemented. What does it say in its documentation?
2016-04-28T15:38:26Z igam: eg. dotimes etc. say that iteration variables or or may not share a binding.
2016-04-28T15:39:22Z igam: that means that you only have conforming read access, and that if you want to make distinct closures you have to do them yourself, and that if you want a unique closure, then you have to provide your own global function.
2016-04-28T15:40:01Z igam: See how much not specifying something in some context implies…
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2016-04-28T15:41:39Z eudoxia: hello everyone
2016-04-28T15:41:58Z eudoxia: I'm having some bullshit problem where I upgraded SBCL to 1.3.4 and now asdf:program-op doesn't work
2016-04-28T15:42:37Z eudoxia: I run it and instead of building my program and dumping the image, it just returns two values: #<ASDF/BUNDLE:PROGRAM-OP > and #<ASDF/PLAN:SEQUENTIAL-PLAN {1003ACE833}>
2016-04-28T15:42:53Z eudoxia: Incidentally there's this warning: WARNING: Reference to deprecated function (SB-EXT:QUIT) from QUIT
2016-04-28T15:43:01Z eudoxia: anyone have any idea what it could be?
2016-04-28T15:44:17Z Guest70: eudoxia: UIOP offers its own QUIT that is supposed to handle portability over different implementations.
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2016-04-28T15:44:49Z eudoxia: rpg: yes, I use (uiop:quit) everywhere so I doubt that's the problem
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2016-04-28T15:45:19Z Guest8491: eudoxia: It's possible that SBCL is bundling an old enough version of ASDF that it doesn't get the update that uses the non-deprecated exit function from SBCL.
2016-04-28T15:45:44Z Guest8491: hm. Stupid client is changing my nick over and over.
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2016-04-28T15:46:00Z _rpg: we'll try _rpg now
2016-04-28T15:46:02Z eudoxia: hmm
2016-04-28T15:46:10Z _rpg: what's the ASDF version?
2016-04-28T15:46:31Z eudoxia: (asdf/component:component-version (asdf/system:find-system :asdf)) says 3.1.6
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2016-04-28T15:47:00Z _rpg: eudoxia: I'll try to look at the ASDF history.
2016-04-28T15:47:23Z eudoxia: wait
2016-04-28T15:47:38Z eudoxia: it's working now after I did asdf:compile-system :force t
2016-04-28T15:47:52Z eudoxia: ah nope it's back to not working
2016-04-28T15:48:20Z eudoxia: huh
2016-04-28T15:48:26Z _rpg: That warning should be happening only at compile time, right -- it's not happening during the bundling, right?
2016-04-28T15:48:37Z eudoxia: looks like I have to to asdf:compile-system in the image before asdf:oos 'asdf:program-op
2016-04-28T15:49:10Z _rpg: eudoxia: I'm sorry, I never use any of Fare's bundling or program-building ops.
2016-04-28T15:49:13Z eudoxia: yeah the warning happens during compilation
2016-04-28T15:49:31Z _rpg: eudoxia compilation of the system, or compilation/loading of ASDF?
2016-04-28T15:49:41Z eudoxia: compilation of the system
2016-04-28T15:50:11Z eudoxia: seems like program-op no longer performs compilation, at least, I no longer see the compilation output I'm used to when doing program-op
2016-04-28T15:50:58Z eudoxia: well, now it's working, but I can't find the resulting executable :^)
2016-04-28T15:51:58Z eudoxia: yep, as expected: it's in the cache directory for some reason
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2016-04-28T15:54:19Z _rpg: eudoxia: The bundle operations should probably take keyword arguments that indicate where the outputs should go.
2016-04-28T15:54:30Z eudoxia: yes, that's what I've been searching for
2016-04-28T15:56:19Z _rpg: I don't think that they are actually well-fitted into the ASDF framework, since ASDF assumes that you can propagate operation options around.  But you shouldn't, e.g., take an output argument for an IMAGE-OP and propagate it up to the sub-systems that we are compiling and loading....
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2016-04-28T15:57:14Z _rpg: I have a vague memory that Fare didn't like having slots stuck onto operation objects, but I forget why. I know the propagation was sketchy -- for exactly the same reason that there's no COPY-OBJECT in CL....
2016-04-28T15:57:35Z eudoxia: right
2016-04-28T15:58:45Z akkad: is there any compression package that is done completely in cl? vs uffs/cffi to zlib/etc?
2016-04-28T15:59:29Z _rpg: eudoxia: But we really need a way to tell those program-building operations where to put their output. I actually regret their inclusion into ASDF: they are a big maintenance IOU I'm not good for.
2016-04-28T15:59:33Z varjag: akkad: https://github.com/bluelisp/zip
2016-04-28T15:59:58Z _rpg: Fare had the energy to paper over the differences between image-dumping in all of the CL implementations: I don't.
2016-04-28T16:00:31Z _rpg: A lot of these were added to make ECL work: I wish they had stayed ECL add-ons, instead of being sucked into ASDF.
2016-04-28T16:00:31Z varjag: and salza2 it references
2016-04-28T16:00:54Z eudoxia: _rpg: well I haven't had many problems with it so it's fine
2016-04-28T16:01:45Z akkad: varjag: thanks. not sure why I thought salza2 was not native.
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2016-04-28T16:01:47Z eudoxia: FWIW there is a :build-pathname argument that you put in the system definition
2016-04-28T16:01:58Z eudoxia: but it seems to be relative to the cache directory :(
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2016-04-28T16:03:40Z _rpg: eudoxia That seems to violate Fare's own criterion --- the system designer doesn't know where the user wants the output.
2016-04-28T16:03:53Z _rpg: I guess that's why it's a NAME, and not a PATHNAME.
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2016-04-28T16:04:45Z eudoxia: well this is even weirder
2016-04-28T16:04:59Z eudoxia: I put a load-time FORMAT call to dump the value of *load-pathname* in the .asd file
2016-04-28T16:05:04Z eudoxia: and it's the correct path to the source
2016-04-28T16:05:23Z eudoxia: but when I do #.(uiop:subpathname *load-pathname* "my-executable"), it no longer works
2016-04-28T16:05:26Z eudoxia: it's a mystery
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2016-04-28T16:05:45Z eudoxia: maybe it doesn't like absolute paths
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2016-04-28T16:06:15Z _rpg: eudoxia It would probably be better to hack this into the OPERATION object.
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2016-04-28T16:06:27Z eudoxia: the output pathname? maybe
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2016-04-28T16:06:39Z eudoxia: I don't know enough about ASDF's architecture to say
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2016-04-28T16:07:57Z eudoxia: well, fuck it, I can just use uiop:dump-image instead of program-op
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2016-04-28T16:10:57Z eudoxia: yep, works now. thanks _rpg
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2016-04-28T17:05:49Z akkad hunts for the best structure to use as a queue
2016-04-28T17:05:59Z akkad: clr to the rescue
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2016-04-28T17:08:15Z pjb: akkad: what about using a queue?
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2016-04-28T17:09:30Z akkad: was going to use a hash for data going into a db with a db thread feeding it in. but clr has a good example of enqueue/dequeue and queue class
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2016-04-28T17:37:12Z pjb: Do we have a url to the recent Polish lisp article? (There was a screen shot two days ago).
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2016-04-28T18:42:11Z jasom: akkad: the most common unsized queue in lisp is to use a list and maintain a tail pointer (pop off the front, append to tail)
2016-04-28T18:42:36Z jasom: akkad: for sized queues, the standard ring-buffer is fine
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2016-04-28T18:53:20Z johnzorn: I have slime connected to a running process. In the repl I can (in-package ...) and evaluate package internal items. How do I setup emacs so that when I eval code (ie C-x C-e) it does so within the package for that process?
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2016-04-28T18:55:34Z Xach: johnzorn: usually by putting (in-package ...) at the top of the file.
2016-04-28T18:55:48Z Xach: johnzorn: slime looks for such forms when setting context for evaluation
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2016-04-28T19:05:58Z johnzorn: Xach: cool, works for the scratch buffer too, thanks
2016-04-28T19:06:35Z Xach: glad to hear it
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2016-04-28T19:08:10Z fchurca: that sounds like an interesting thing to stuff into slimv too
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2016-04-28T19:14:49Z fchurca: how does that usually work in emacs? does the in-package have to be in the first line for it to be detected?
2016-04-28T19:16:09Z mood: fchurca: No, it can be "anywhere". Multiple in-package forms will also pick the right one
2016-04-28T19:16:22Z mood: I guess it scans the file backwards from the evaluation position or something
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2016-04-28T19:18:26Z fchurca: oh, looks like it already does work in slimv too
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2016-04-28T19:23:10Z sebboh: moore33, though you appear to have left the channel: Right, I don't *want* to see the intermediary products, though seeing them during dev is useful.  CL thinks so, too, thus macroexpand or whatnot.
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2016-04-28T19:25:04Z pjb: jasom: akkad: if your queue usage pattern is more like (enqueue^n dequeue^p)* with n>>1 p>>1 rather n and p small, then you could use a cons cell to keep two stacks, one input stack and one output stack, and when you need to dequeue and the output stack is empty, you just nreverse it into the input stack.
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2016-04-28T19:25:41Z pjb: (actually even when n and p are small, this would have smaller complexity constants).
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2016-04-28T19:56:13Z akkad: pbj thanks. very good information
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2016-04-28T20:10:31Z akkad: does a let block have an implicit progn?
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2016-04-28T20:10:47Z varjag: yes?
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2016-04-28T20:13:27Z warweasle: Yes
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2016-04-28T20:13:51Z warweasle: Or you might say a progn has an implicit let block.
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2016-04-28T20:15:44Z akkad: thx
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2016-04-28T20:20:11Z jasom: let always includes an implicit progn
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2016-04-28T20:47:21Z warweasle: Xach: Is there a way to query all installed ql packages for a file or metadata?
2016-04-28T20:47:49Z Xach: warweasle: hmm, i'm not sure what you mean. like, is there a file named "foo.lisp" anywhere? and what kind of metadata?
2016-04-28T20:48:24Z jasom: warweasle: you can do something like "find ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software -iname 'foo.lisp'"
2016-04-28T20:49:06Z warweasle: Xach: I might could check what shared libraries are in memory at the moment.
2016-04-28T20:49:18Z Xach: parse error near might could
2016-04-28T20:49:29Z Xach: sbcl has a way to find out what shared libraries are loaded
2016-04-28T20:49:54Z jasom: even after assuming might -> maybe, I don't know what tat sentence has to do with the first question
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2016-04-28T20:51:40Z warweasle is thinking about a distribution system which finds required libraries.
2016-04-28T20:51:52Z warweasle: So you can distribute them.
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2016-04-28T20:52:51Z warweasle: Ok, now I think it's a dumb idea.
2016-04-28T20:52:54Z Xach: warweasle: oh, i'd love to at least gather that info.
2016-04-28T20:53:12Z Xach: warweasle: and give people a fighting chance at figuring out how to get what they need
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2016-04-28T20:53:52Z jasom: warweasle: where you the one who posted to the asdf list?
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2016-04-28T20:54:23Z warweasle: jasom: I don't think so.
2016-04-28T20:54:24Z Xach: i'd love to have someone make windows dlls available for popular/useful CL projects.
2016-04-28T20:54:38Z Xach: it's a big semi-monolithic target
2016-04-28T20:54:47Z warweasle: Xach: Ok, binaries for Clinch. Got it.
2016-04-28T20:54:53Z warweasle: Xach: :P
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2016-04-28T20:55:55Z jasom: warweasle: someone posted this morning to the asdf list asking about adding dependencies on non-lisp things so that it at least spits out "libfixposix needs to be installed" instead of something more cryptic when you try to load IOLib
2016-04-28T20:56:16Z warweasle: Xach: I would like to make a list of dependanties and where to download them from. Then the tool could download the correct version, package everything in a local quicklisp directory and distribute.
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2016-04-28T20:57:10Z jasom: That's a lot fancier than I was thinking warweasle
2016-04-28T20:57:24Z jasom: for *nix it's probably best to install via the system package manager, for example.
2016-04-28T20:58:23Z warweasle: jasom: Yes...but I'll need it for Steam.
2016-04-28T20:58:25Z warweasle: :)
2016-04-28T20:59:12Z jasom: warweasle: hmm, I thought steam gave you a bunch of preinstalled .so already?
2016-04-28T20:59:34Z warweasle: jasom: I have no clue. First I have to write the game.
2016-04-28T20:59:37Z jasom: and in that case, I'd bundle any missing ones directly with your executable
2016-04-28T20:59:51Z warweasle: jasom: Right, this would be a tool for that.
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2016-04-28T21:00:29Z jasom: oh, I've just always semi-manually done that (i.e. statically declare which DLLs I need and copy them in in a build script)
2016-04-28T21:00:51Z jasom: the set changes only very rarely, so I haven't felt the itch to automate
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2016-04-28T21:20:42Z emaczen: Is there a decent CL pattern for initialize-instance with different argument types?
2016-04-28T21:21:11Z emaczen: Recently, I've been conding on different keyword arguments and having separate methods: "init-with-type"
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2016-04-28T21:29:27Z fchurca: i have seen make-foo with foo being your class; make-foo could be then specialised on its arguments
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2016-04-28T21:36:06Z fchurca: emaczen: ^
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2016-04-28T22:17:43Z jasom: +1 for make-foo pattern
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2016-04-28T22:17:55Z jasom: though isn't initialize-instance a method?
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2016-04-28T22:18:12Z jasom: oh it is, but has &rest
2016-04-28T22:19:17Z jasom: you can also invert that and have an initialize-foo method that you call via apply from initialize-instance
2016-04-28T22:20:00Z jasom: e.g. (defmethod initialize-instance ((instance foo) &rest initargs) (apply #'initialize-foo foo initargs))
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2016-04-28T22:40:11Z Guest70: jasom: the Keene book suggests "make-foo" pattern (although maybe with a different prefix then make-? I forget).
2016-04-28T22:40:40Z jasom: The make-foo is probably more common, but I see nothing wrong with what I posted
2016-04-28T22:40:51Z Guest70: I don't recall the rationale, but personally the "you have no way to guess what the allowable arguments are" seems like a good reason to avoid making MAKE-INSTANCE be your API.
2016-04-28T22:40:52Z jasom: perhaps someone here will tell me why it's a bad idea
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2016-04-28T22:41:09Z jasom: oh yeah
2016-04-28T22:41:18Z jasom: I agree that make-instance is a lousy api for a lot of reasons
2016-04-28T22:41:37Z jasom: the IDE can't derive a lot of meaning from it if nothing else
2016-04-28T22:41:53Z _rpg: It's fine for the person who wrote the DEFCLASS, but for anyone else probably Not A Good Thing.
2016-04-28T22:42:11Z jasom: OTOH having a make-foo is not incompatible with also having all the initialization happening inside initialize-instance
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2016-04-28T22:49:23Z pillton: You aren't exposing implementation details if you use make-foo.
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2016-04-28T22:50:17Z pillton: Also, you have the option of returning a subtype of FOO when using make-foo. You don't have that option with make-instance.
2016-04-28T22:52:12Z jasom: oh, I like make-foo, I use make-foo, I just still like having initialization happen in initialize-instance
2016-04-28T22:53:26Z pillton: that or shared-initialize.
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2016-04-28T22:55:28Z pillton: make-foo generally checks preconditions of the encpauslation before creation. It is too late by initialize-instance/shared-initialize.
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2016-04-28T23:40:02Z PuercoPop: jasom: couldn't the IDE use find-class -> class-slots to query the initargs?
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2016-04-28T23:46:46Z Bike: a make-instance method can take arguments that aren't slot initargs, if it wants
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2016-04-28T23:50:03Z jasom: Bike beat me to it
2016-04-28T23:50:24Z Bike: also arguments defined for shared-initialize and so on work in make-instance, or something? beats me
2016-04-28T23:50:46Z Bike: still probably queryable, just kind of a pain in the ass
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2016-04-29T00:08:22Z PuercoPop nods
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2016-04-29T00:17:45Z PuercoPop: is there a way to make a unless clause in loop to apply to more clauses than just the one below?
2016-04-29T00:19:38Z Bike: yeah, you do like "unless condition clause1 and clause2 and clause3"
2016-04-29T00:24:30Z PuercoPop: ahh I seem to recall you've mentioned it before. Sorry and tanks
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2016-04-29T02:44:50Z aeth: Is this how to get a case-insensitive keyword from a string? (intern (string-upcase "foo") :keyword)
2016-04-29T02:45:47Z Bike: yea, tho consider find-symbol
2016-04-29T02:46:55Z aeth: Oh nevermind
2016-04-29T02:47:31Z aeth: I can just make an equalp hash table, and make it case-insensitive that way
2016-04-29T02:48:39Z aeth: I didn't know that equalp was case-insensitive on strings, so that's probably the best way to do something case-insensitive, even if that means I'll have some string-indexed hash tables
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2016-04-29T03:11:49Z emaczen: What is a "Applicable-methods changed in call-next-method." error?
2016-04-29T03:12:41Z pillton: I'd say you changed the methods during an invocation.
2016-04-29T03:13:47Z emaczen: pillton: can you explain? It isn't clear to me. I just restarted my lisp and tried to evaluate a method.
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2016-04-29T03:14:33Z pillton: You don't evaluate a method. You invoke a generic function.
2016-04-29T03:14:51Z pillton: The generic function then searches for methods which are applicable to the objects given.
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2016-04-29T03:14:52Z emaczen: yes
2016-04-29T03:14:57Z emaczen: yes
2016-04-29T03:15:13Z Bike: so... what did you do, precisely
2016-04-29T03:15:18Z Zhivago: Rather, think of the gf as assembling a function from the fragments (methods) supplied to it.
2016-04-29T03:15:46Z Zhivago: But when you called call-next-method you gave it arguments that would have had it assemble a different function instead.
2016-04-29T03:16:30Z Zhivago: And this made the generic function confused and unhappy.
2016-04-29T03:17:21Z emaczen: Zhivago: I think I see my error then with call-next-method
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2016-04-29T03:18:18Z zRecursive: Does call-next-method accept explicit argument(s) ?
2016-04-29T03:18:31Z pillton: Are you doing something like? (defmethod my-function ((object my-class))  (change-the-methods-for #'my-function) (call-next-method))
2016-04-29T03:18:41Z Zhivago: Yes, but with restrictions.
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2016-04-29T03:19:46Z zRecursive: clhs call-next-method
2016-04-29T03:19:46Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm
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2016-04-29T03:24:22Z zRecursive i indeed never see any code calling call-next-method with arguments before.
2016-04-29T03:25:13Z pillton: emaczen: What implementation?
2016-04-29T03:25:58Z emaczen: CCL
2016-04-29T03:26:57Z pillton: Ok. What I said isn't right.
2016-04-29T03:28:05Z pillton: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314952
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2016-04-29T03:38:09Z pillton: emaczen: I don't know what the problem is now.
2016-04-29T03:38:41Z pillton: CCL doesn't implement make-method-lambda so I can't check what happens when you add a method.
2016-04-29T03:39:58Z pillton: emaczen: I would grep the CCL source code to find out where the error text comes from.
2016-04-29T03:40:24Z Bike: level-1/l1-dcode.lisp
2016-04-29T03:41:09Z Bike: and, as zhivago already figured out, it's from call-next-method with weird arguments, not a change in methods
2016-04-29T03:41:37Z pillton: Oh right. I missed that.
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2016-04-29T04:25:23Z aeth: In case anyone is wondering, the Lisp game jam has started.
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2016-04-29T05:36:05Z cedilon: ahh it's a wonderful day
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2016-04-29T05:36:26Z fouric: Anyone at the jam willing to record and upload a bit of footage?
2016-04-29T05:36:39Z fouric: I really really wanted to attend, but couldn't, because school
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2016-04-29T05:42:01Z cedilon: how you doin
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2016-04-29T05:42:49Z cedilon: ok
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2016-04-29T06:04:38Z John[Lisbeth]: So I asked this before not exactly understanding what emacs was or what "a lisp" was, so now I am coming back curious to re-evaluate what I learned then. Are there any lisp shells out there. I mean a shell in the spirit that bash is a shell or that zsh or fish is a shell.
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2016-04-29T06:04:49Z John[Lisbeth]: Or perhaps you'd say that emacs is that thing.
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2016-04-29T06:08:24Z Bike: sure. google "lisp shell"". there's clash and lush for instance.
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2016-04-29T06:17:00Z aeth: John[Lisbeth]: emacs itself isn't a shell, but it has a shell, M-x eshell
2016-04-29T06:17:25Z aeth: For CL, there are several. I'm not sure which is the most complete.
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2016-04-29T10:50:30Z flip214: I'd like to embed an array with some data, like this: #((:flag :value) () (:link #'fn))
2016-04-29T10:50:58Z flip214: but with #() it won't put the function in there but a (function fn).
2016-04-29T10:51:31Z flip214: is there some easier way than (load-time-value (coerce `(... (:link ,#'fn)) 'vector)?
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2016-04-29T10:52:47Z jdz: you can use VECTOR function
2016-04-29T10:53:15Z jdz: and you don't have to coerce, can straight use `#(... (:link ,#'fn))
2016-04-29T10:55:06Z flip214: jdz: thanks. VECTOR would build a new one each time the surrounding function is called, right?
2016-04-29T10:55:17Z jdz: yes
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2016-04-29T10:55:56Z flip214: jdz: Didn't know about the `#(), thanks a lot!
2016-04-29T10:56:33Z Guthur: unless you have a particular reason i would store the symbol rather than the function
2016-04-29T10:56:51Z Guthur: therefore making it a easier to redefine later
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2016-04-29T11:02:29Z flip214: Guthur: that only works if it's a toplevel function - LABELS and FLET wouldn't, that's why I normally use #'
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2016-04-29T11:24:52Z igam: flip214: if you use LABELS and FLET, you might get closures in a non-null lexical environment.  Therefore you may have to use vector instead of #( or load-time-value.
2016-04-29T11:25:29Z igam: If you use labels or flet to define functions in a null lexical environment, then you could as well define global functions.
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2016-04-29T11:31:15Z flip214: igam: yeah, right.
2016-04-29T11:31:41Z flip214: thanks for reminding me.
2016-04-29T11:33:59Z igam: flip214: FUNCTION should have been named CLOSURE :-)
2016-04-29T11:34:15Z igam: (defmacro closure (x) `(function ,x))
2016-04-29T11:35:29Z flip214: igam: oh, btw, LOAD-TIME-VALUE forces a null lexical environment anyway, so (L-T-V (COERCE ....)) with a closure says "function is undefined"
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2016-04-29T11:36:31Z igam: Be careful, it's probably in the implementation dependent or unspecified area.
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2016-04-29T11:36:42Z flip214: yeah, trying to ;)
2016-04-29T11:36:46Z igam: Like compile for a closure.
2016-04-29T11:36:48Z flip214: thanks for the help
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2016-04-29T11:40:53Z Xach:    /win 3
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2016-04-29T11:58:04Z razieliyo: I have some doubts with this piece of code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/314976
2016-04-29T11:58:35Z razieliyo: I understand myset1 does not work because a and b are bound to local
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2016-04-29T11:59:03Z White_Flame: correct, but myset2 is perfecly fine
2016-04-29T11:59:24Z razieliyo: I've used things like myset2, but now that I think about this case, I don't understand why myset2 does work
2016-04-29T11:59:38Z razieliyo: maybe it's the aref
2016-04-29T11:59:55Z White_Flame: because the main guts are (setf (aref ...) ...), which is a defined setter in the system
2016-04-29T12:00:23Z White_Flame: CL defines setf clauses for various accessor form shapes
2016-04-29T12:00:55Z White_Flame: the array itself is perfectly fine as a variable.  The setf-aref knows how to treat it
2016-04-29T12:01:10Z peey: aref would give you the pointer for the element of the array to set. In myset1 you're resetting what the local variable a points to
2016-04-29T12:02:31Z razieliyo: so, basically in myset1 the argument (primitive) is value and in myset2  the argument (array) is a reference (pointer, whatever)
2016-04-29T12:03:05Z White_Flame: setf is a syntactic construct, not a runtime construct
2016-04-29T12:03:19Z razieliyo: void myset1 (int a, int b) { a = b; }, void myset2 (int* a, int b) { a[0] = b; }
2016-04-29T12:03:26Z razieliyo: White_Flame, okay, that clarifies something as well
2016-04-29T12:03:30Z White_Flame: so (setf symbol val) will set a value directly, (setf (accessor-func ...) val) is a special setter which will do other things
2016-04-29T12:03:42Z razieliyo: okay okay, I get it
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2016-04-29T12:04:02Z razieliyo: thanks both for these clarifications
2016-04-29T12:04:02Z moore33: razieliyo: You are correct that arr is basically a pointer to an array object.
2016-04-29T12:04:29Z razieliyo: moore33, nice, thanks!
2016-04-29T12:05:00Z White_Flame: you can't exactly get a pointer to an element of an array, and pass it around, and have the change reflected in the original array, as you can do in C
2016-04-29T12:05:08Z White_Flame: though some lisps did support that, called "locatives"
2016-04-29T12:05:36Z White_Flame: but you can certainly pass the array itself around, and that's going to be by reference
2016-04-29T12:05:50Z White_Flame: all composite data structures are passed around by reference
2016-04-29T12:05:56Z razieliyo: okay, I understand
2016-04-29T12:06:13Z razieliyo: so everything reference but not primitives, like it use to be, right?
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2016-04-29T12:06:51Z White_Flame: primitive values like numbers are basically immutable, so reference vs value is kind of moot there
2016-04-29T12:06:55Z razieliyo: makes sense, feel the need to ask because lisp is so alien sometimes
2016-04-29T12:07:02Z razieliyo: s/feel/felt
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2016-04-29T12:08:35Z White_Flame: but large integers and floats will be boxed, so that's by reference again
2016-04-29T12:08:38Z malice: Hello! I have a function that returns a function. I'd like to defun a function that is the returned function. How can I do that?
2016-04-29T12:09:08Z White_Flame: (setf (symbol-function 'my-function-name) function-object)
2016-04-29T12:09:27Z White_Flame: though Im' not sure if that fully suffices
2016-04-29T12:09:38Z moore33: 32-bit floats might be passed as immediate objects on 64 bit architectures.
2016-04-29T12:09:43Z malice: White_Flame: however, the function definition looks then like "func &rest args"
2016-04-29T12:10:02Z White_Flame: malice:  doesn't matter. that's all part of the function object
2016-04-29T12:10:38Z razieliyo: White_Flame, I see, totally good to know those kind of primitives are passed by ref, I suppose they are internally not primitives
2016-04-29T12:11:05Z White_Flame: malice: you can also always DECLARE the function with the parameters & return value, if you wish
2016-04-29T12:11:19Z malice: White_Flame: I'd just like it to look neat when compiler hints you how it works
2016-04-29T12:11:30Z malice: White_Flame: how can I declare it?
2016-04-29T12:13:56Z White_Flame: malice: I've rarely done it, but something like (declaim (function (fixnum fixnum) list)) for a function that takes 2 fixnums and returns a list, I think
2016-04-29T12:14:11Z White_Flame: ah, put the function name itself at the end as well ;)
2016-04-29T12:14:40Z White_Flame: someone else will surely correct it.  Calling the Pedantic Patrol!
2016-04-29T12:18:42Z peey: White_Flame: are acessors special types of functions? something like http://paste.lisp.org/display/314978#1 fails
2016-04-29T12:19:00Z malice: White_Flame: looks like this shows correct declaration: http://nklein.com/2009/06/optimizing-lisp-some-more/
2016-04-29T12:19:25Z White_Flame: an accessor is generally the name given to a shape that both exists as a function to read from, and registerd as a setf function shape as well
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2016-04-29T12:20:18Z White_Flame: so yes, return-ptr doesn't return a pointer, it'll return the 1st element of the array; and then (setf ...) has no idea what to do with return-ptr
2016-04-29T12:20:36Z White_Flame: for isntance, there's one piece of code for handing (car x), and another for handling (setf (car x) val)
2016-04-29T12:20:49Z White_Flame: clhs defsetf
2016-04-29T12:20:50Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defset.htm
2016-04-29T12:21:09Z peey: Gotcha. I even found a related stackoverflow question now : http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11457071/defining-setf-expanders-in-common-lisp
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2016-04-29T12:21:24Z peey: thanks!
2016-04-29T12:22:02Z White_Flame: however, you can also use macros to put the shape right into your setf forms, so (setf (my-access var) 2) could macroexpand to (setf (aref (get-my-array 'main) 1 3)  2), which would be fine
2016-04-29T12:22:06Z malice: However, in SBCL declaim doesn't seem to do what I wanted
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2016-04-29T12:22:37Z White_Flame: since CL already knows how to handle setf-aref
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2016-04-29T12:23:25Z White_Flame: Honestly, I don't think I've ever used a setf expander yet.  I've always just used macros when I needed setf support
2016-04-29T12:24:50Z peey: It's more useful for understanding-how-language-works purposes than practical purposes I guess
2016-04-29T12:25:11Z White_Flame: and there are certainly cases when you specifically want to write a separate reader & setter
2016-04-29T12:25:41Z White_Flame: but for many simple cases, you can just use a macro to expand your accessor to a builtin CL accessor
2016-04-29T12:26:07Z White_Flame: which will be used for both reading & writing
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2016-04-29T12:26:52Z Xach tries building the quicklisp world with safety forced to 3
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2016-04-29T12:49:51Z Jonsky: I played with bsd socket in sbcl. I opened a socket and closed it. Now I tried to (SOCKET-BIND ..) the socket to #(127 0 0 1) and the same port again and it shows an error message: Socket error in "bind": EBADF (Bad file descriptor)
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2016-04-29T12:53:28Z Xach: Jonsky: I don't know with authority what the issue is, but it's possible that you must create a new socket fd instead of reusing the one you closed. Did you do that?
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2016-04-29T12:57:49Z Jonsky: Xach: aha, lemme try it. I didn't know I cannot reuse a closed socket.
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2016-04-29T13:04:45Z Jonsky: Xach: okay now everything is fine.
2016-04-29T13:04:51Z Xach: mycket bra
2016-04-29T13:04:52Z Jonsky: Xach: Thanks
2016-04-29T13:07:15Z warweasle: Xach: What is zs3? Is that what quicklisp uses>
2016-04-29T13:07:15Z minion: warweasle, memo from fchurca: you may want to take a look at Qlot for project-local dependency management: https://github.com/fukamachi/qlot
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2016-04-29T13:07:36Z warweasle: Ohh...I have a minion!
2016-04-29T13:07:56Z Xach: warweasle: it's an interface to amazon S3 and CloudFront services. quicklisp uses it to publish dists.
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2016-04-29T13:09:07Z warweasle: Xach: Do you run a remote lisp server or do you just keep the distro stuff there?
2016-04-29T13:09:33Z Xach: warweasle: i use it only as a robust and cheap file serving service.
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2016-04-29T13:09:50Z Xach: the CDN aspect has also made it possible for people to use quicklisp who otherwise would time out
2016-04-29T13:10:31Z warweasle: Xach: Ahh...I think Amazon Cloud does support CL though.
2016-04-29T13:10:59Z Xach: Well, you can run whole machines on it pretty easily, so that's one way to do it.
2016-04-29T13:11:25Z Xach: It would be potentially a nice way to build a lot of stuff in parallel. Not sure if it's worth the effort to set up and run though.
2016-04-29T13:11:46Z warweasle: Xach: Right now I'm running a virtual machine on linode but I don't run a front facing lisp. I connect through ssh.
2016-04-29T13:12:19Z warweasle: Xach: Isn't that what made Yahoo succeed
2016-04-29T13:12:22Z Xach: I have a few lisp-powered websites running on dedicated hardware from OVH. It's what quicklisp.org runs on.
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2016-04-29T13:12:35Z Xach notes that www.mainetownline.com is powered by Common Lisp 
2016-04-29T13:13:09Z warweasle: Xach: Can't get to it from work. I'll have to look that up later.
2016-04-29T13:13:19Z Xach: banned by work!!
2016-04-29T13:13:28Z Xach: how about http://pixelspeechbubble.com/ ?
2016-04-29T13:13:37Z warweasle: Xach: They think I should do work just because they pay me.
2016-04-29T13:14:02Z warweasle wants to brag a bit: 2 hours work in Clinch last night: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM9dHDgmKms
2016-04-29T13:14:14Z warweasle: I'll try to keep putting up videos.
2016-04-29T13:14:46Z warweasle: Or rather, I'm ego bound to put up more videos.
2016-04-29T13:14:59Z Jonsky: aha, so the fd of a socket becomes negative after closing the socket. on wonder I got the bad fd error.
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2016-04-29T13:21:49Z Xach: Jonsky: hmm. the underlying system doesn't work like that. i wonder if that's an additional sbcl socket behavior.
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2016-04-29T13:24:49Z Jonsky: Xach: I INSPECTed the sockets before and after closing them and saw them became -1. I don't know much about sockets and am still learning.
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2016-04-29T13:25:51Z Xach: Jonsky: good idea. on the underlying system, the socket is represented by an integer. network functions are passed that integer. but it isn't a mutable thing, it's just a number.
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2016-04-29T14:08:40Z pseudo-sue: hey, is fe[nl]ix around? I'm having a little bit of trouble installing iolib on a new distro.
2016-04-29T14:11:11Z Xach: I don't know if he's around, but maybe someone else can help. What's the trouble?
2016-04-29T14:11:36Z dlowe: pseudo-sue: which distro?
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2016-04-29T14:12:29Z pseudo-sue: Fedora (inside Qubes, but that shouldn't matter).
2016-04-29T14:12:47Z pseudo-sue: I'm more accustomed to debian and arch, so maybe I'm just missing something obvious.
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2016-04-29T14:12:56Z dlowe: pseudo-sue: have you installed libfixposix?
2016-04-29T14:13:02Z pseudo-sue: But it craps out right now with a complaint about g++. And yes.
2016-04-29T14:13:13Z dlowe: g++? boggle.
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2016-04-29T14:13:35Z Xach: What is the complaint?
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2016-04-29T14:13:50Z pseudo-sue: it's possible that qubes somehow failed to push the libfixposix install from the template to the appvm, but that would be odd
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2016-04-29T14:16:45Z pseudo-sue: http://sprunge.us/WSbE << here's the error message
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2016-04-29T14:19:48Z Xach: pseudo-sue: What do you get for output if you run that command directly?
2016-04-29T14:20:24Z pseudo-sue: good thinking. i seem to be missing lfp.h
2016-04-29T14:20:27Z fe[nl]ix: that looks like the headers were not found
2016-04-29T14:21:17Z pseudo-sue: yep, it's part of fixlibposix... which shows up on a locate search. I suppose I just need to update the library paths, or something.
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2016-04-29T14:22:09Z pseudo-sue: ah, i see. it is a qubes issue -- these libraries should have been updated when i installed them to the templatevm
2016-04-29T14:22:16Z pseudo-sue: ok, i know how to fix this now. thanks
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2016-04-29T14:26:02Z sepi: What's an easy way to run a long running function in the slime repl without loosing the ability to use the repl while the function is running?
2016-04-29T14:26:32Z pseudo-sue: run it from *slime-scratch*
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2016-04-29T14:27:18Z pseudo-sue: M-x slime-scratch, then jot down your function, and hit C-c C-c on it.
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2016-04-29T14:27:45Z pseudo-sue: and then C-c C-c on (yourfunctionname), etc. Or do it from the source file, if that makes more sense.
2016-04-29T14:27:51Z pseudo-sue: (source buffer, i mean)
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2016-04-29T14:35:28Z sepi: pseudo-sue: can I still interrupt the function then?
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2016-04-29T14:35:41Z sepi: I was more looking for a simple way to start a thread
2016-04-29T14:35:49Z sepi: that I can also kill if needed
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2016-04-29T14:37:12Z pseudo-sue: sepi: it should be possible, but you'll have to code a kill switch in. C-c won't do it from the repl
2016-04-29T14:37:45Z pseudo-sue: one trick i use, especially when debugging, is to have a global *stop* variable, and check it on every iteration of a main loop i might want to kill
2016-04-29T14:37:50Z loke`: Good evening Lisp!
2016-04-29T14:37:59Z pseudo-sue: then I break it with (setf *stop* t), or whatever
2016-04-29T14:38:09Z pseudo-sue: and you can do that from either the repl or the scratch buffer
2016-04-29T14:38:21Z sepi: pseudo-sue: hmm, sounds crude but functional :)
2016-04-29T14:38:26Z pseudo-sue: does the trick.
2016-04-29T14:38:39Z sepi: I'll give it a try
2016-04-29T14:38:42Z sepi: thanks
2016-04-29T14:38:43Z loke`: You can hard-kill threads, but you have to be very careful with it, since you can put things in a broken state.
2016-04-29T14:38:50Z pseudo-sue: the whole ability to change global variables at runtime is one of the real luxuries of slime
2016-04-29T14:38:56Z loke`: So if at all possibe, follow pseudo-sue advice.
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2016-04-29T14:40:05Z pseudo-sue: The sort of thing you'd want to kill is probably a loop anyways, right? (or a recursion). and adding another exit condition is pretty easy, and easy to clean up when you don't need it anymore.
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2016-04-29T14:42:16Z igam: sepi: Also instead of using the slime-repl contrib, you may try slime-mrepl, which allows you to have multiple repls.
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2016-04-29T14:43:17Z igam: sepi: (bt:make-thread (lambda () …)) is the simple way to start a thread.
2016-04-29T14:44:10Z igam: sepi: (defmacro & (&body body) `(bt:make-thread (lambda () ,@body)))  (defparameter *n* 0)  (& (loop (sleep 1) (incf *n*)))
2016-04-29T14:44:16Z loke`: lparallel is also a good tool.
2016-04-29T14:44:46Z loke`: igam: That thing is not thread-safe
2016-04-29T14:44:52Z igam: sepi: then you can use list-threads and kill-thread or kill-threads from http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/tools/thread.lisp
2016-04-29T14:45:00Z loke`: You can't guarantee anythign wrt the state of *n* in that case.
2016-04-29T14:45:41Z loke`: igam: And, if you want to use kill-thread, you can't even use locks to ensure the state of the variable. Instead, you need to use CAS, which can be a hassle.
2016-04-29T14:47:23Z igam: Of course, asking politely and nicely the thread to terminate is aways better, if possible, than just killing it. There's a reason why it's outrageously named "kill-thread".
2016-04-29T14:48:26Z loke`: igam: Yes. Note that Java used to have it in Java 1.1, but by 1.2 it was deprecated already (it was clled Thread.destroy()). It was depreacated for the same reason it shouldn't be used in Lisp. It's practically impossible to use it safely.
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2016-04-29T14:49:18Z igam: killing is messy, don't be surprised if there's blood everywhere after.
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2016-04-29T14:52:12Z sepi: Ok, so bt seems really easy to use. Good to know
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2016-04-29T14:57:19Z pseudo-sue: I think I just need to tell iolib directly where to look for the libfixposix libary
2016-04-29T14:57:26Z pseudo-sue: /libary/library/
2016-04-29T14:58:05Z pseudo-sue: I've tried updating the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable in all the usual places, but it just doesn't seem to be set by the time slime starts.
2016-04-29T14:58:31Z pseudo-sue: I know you can retrieve env vars with #'posix-getenv -- is there a way to set them?
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2016-04-29T15:00:06Z flip214: pseudo-sue: posix-setenv, perhaps?
2016-04-29T15:00:33Z pseudo-sue: you'd think that'd be a thing, wouldn't you, flip214?
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2016-04-29T15:01:10Z pseudo-sue: I'm grepping through iolib, looking for the line that tries to compile with libfixposix, but haven't found it yet...
2016-04-29T15:01:38Z flip214: what implementation are you using?
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2016-04-29T15:02:09Z flip214: do you have a chrpath binary, perhaps?
2016-04-29T15:02:15Z flip214: set LD_LIBRARY_PATH before starting the lisp?
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2016-04-29T15:02:47Z pseudo-sue: aha! got it
2016-04-29T15:02:50Z pseudo-sue: piece of cake
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2016-04-29T15:03:18Z flip214: pieces of c8ked?
2016-04-29T15:03:30Z pseudo-sue: not elegant, but it worked. I just changed line 14 in ffi-functions-unix.lisp so that it loaded libfixposix with its absolute path.
2016-04-29T15:03:53Z jasom: to whomever maintains common-lisp.net: https://about.gitlab.com/2016/04/28/gitlab-major-security-update-for-cve-2016-4340/
2016-04-29T15:04:03Z pseudo-sue: I think qubes does something funky with some of the environment setting, which i haven't quite gotten the hang of yet.
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2016-04-29T15:18:26Z Xach: attila_lendvai: some more issues in sbcl. i don't understand them.
2016-04-29T15:18:53Z attila_lendvai: Xach: help me reproduce and I'll deal with them
2016-04-29T15:19:09Z Xach: attila_lendvai: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-04-29/failure-report.html has logs
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2016-04-29T15:19:24Z Xach: attila_lendvai: i built everything after using (sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy 'safety 3)
2016-04-29T15:19:36Z Xach: attila_lendvai: it seems to have triggered something in cffi grovel and cl-ppcre
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2016-04-29T15:20:54Z nmeum: Hey, I want to update a specfic element in a vector I currently use (setf (elt myector mypos) newvalue) for that however, setf updates the myvector variable instead of returning a new list. Is there any way to achive the same thing without changing the value of the myvector variable?
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2016-04-29T15:21:30Z Xach: nmeum: you would have to copy the vector first, and then make the change to the copy. there is no shortcut to doing it built in.
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2016-04-29T15:22:59Z nmeum: Xach: thank, I will try that
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2016-04-29T15:27:26Z attila_lendvai: Xach: ouch. the issue is that we use slot type declarations to drive the meta-gui, and as such they are somewhere not type-system precise. safety 3 enables type propagation and checking that breaks stuff. I don't immediately see a low-cost fix for this (except disabling this specific check).
2016-04-29T15:27:51Z Xach: hmm
2016-04-29T15:28:32Z Xach: Well, there are other projects that seem to have real bugs related to this...
2016-04-29T15:30:15Z loke`: Xach: I have a question about zs3
2016-04-29T15:30:32Z Xach: Spill it
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2016-04-29T15:31:16Z loke`: Xach: I have a large file, and need to upload it to S3. It seems as though zs3 loads it completely into memory before uploading it.
2016-04-29T15:31:36Z Xach: loke`: It's designed not to do that, but send it in parts.
2016-04-29T15:31:36Z loke`: Xach: Is there a way to avoid that?
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2016-04-29T15:31:56Z loke`: Xach: Hmm, for me, it does. Let me double-check what I do,
2016-04-29T15:32:21Z attila_lendvai: Xach: every hu.dwim.*.documentation system is affected by this, you can ignore those when hunting for bugs
2016-04-29T15:32:22Z Xach: loke`: If you use :start and :end, it will load the whole thing.
2016-04-29T15:34:07Z loke`: Xach: I'm using zs3:put-stream
2016-04-29T15:34:15Z loke`: Should that avoid loading the stream into memory?
2016-04-29T15:35:01Z Xach: loke`: Ok, that one does load the stream into memory. Are you able to use a file instead? That would be the easiest workaround, if possible.
2016-04-29T15:35:13Z attila_lendvai: Xach: is there a reason/bug that the type error is not pretty-printed here: http://report.quicklisp.org/2016-04-29/failure-report/hu.dwim.bluez.html#hu.dwim.bluez
2016-04-29T15:35:41Z loke`: Xach: I am, but it would require making a special code-path for the file case
2016-04-29T15:36:06Z Xach: loke`: i'm available for rental if you want me to take a crack at not-in-memory stream uploads :)
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2016-04-29T15:36:08Z loke`: In any case, thanks for the confirmation.
2016-04-29T15:36:16Z attila_lendvai: well, I should be able to reproduce that... I'll look into this
2016-04-29T15:36:17Z loke`: Xach: How much would you charge for it?
2016-04-29T15:36:26Z loke`: I.e. how many hours?
2016-04-29T15:36:58Z Xach: I'd estimate 6 hours.
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2016-04-29T15:37:41Z loke`: Xach: Thanks, I'll check with my boss.
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2016-04-29T15:39:03Z loke`: Knowing them, I'd probably be asked to limit the upload size :-)
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2016-04-29T15:45:53Z sepi: Do we have a libaray that removes any diacritics from unicode strings?
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2016-04-29T15:46:42Z sepi: cl-unicode does not seem to have this functionality but I also don't know so much about unicode
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2016-04-29T15:49:35Z sepi: It seems that I want to have my strings in fully decomposed normal form and then remove any diacritics.
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2016-04-29T16:12:44Z akkad: is it possible in defpackage to have #+flavors include implementation specific libraries?
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2016-04-29T16:17:07Z Wasdaf: Sure. The form following #+sbcl for example wouldn't ever be read on other implementations
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2016-04-29T16:20:39Z akkad: ty
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2016-04-29T16:32:50Z Xach: loke`: i could roll in https://github.com/xach/zs3/issues/14 too
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2016-04-29T17:11:51Z attila_lendvai: Xach: pushed a fix into cffi master. the fix in cl-ppcre, finally not use (safety 0) by default, brought up a bug...
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2016-04-29T17:12:54Z emaczen: does #'peek-char always ignored newlines?
2016-04-29T17:13:10Z Xach: attila_lendvai: interesting. i use cffi releases right now.
2016-04-29T17:14:31Z attila_lendvai: Xach: too bad. it breaks projectured, too. shall I bug Luis for a new release? or let's jump into the quicklisp tagging?
2016-04-29T17:14:46Z Xach: Maybe there's enough for a new release?
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2016-04-29T17:16:22Z attila_lendvai: luis: ?
2016-04-29T17:18:03Z emaczen: I had to pass nil instead of t ..
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2016-04-29T18:20:49Z linux_dream: hi people, can I do in lisp something like :  if i == 3   then i-1 = 7   ?
2016-04-29T18:21:06Z linux_dream: like defining "i-1"
2016-04-29T18:21:11Z linux_dream: without redefining i
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2016-04-29T18:22:07Z warweasle: linux_dream: That sounds like logic programming. Lisp can do that but you need to implement the ability. You might look at gambol or screamer.
2016-04-29T18:22:24Z linux_dream: I see
2016-04-29T18:22:28Z linux_dream: thank you
2016-04-29T18:22:41Z warweasle: Or PAIP's Prolog implementation.
2016-04-29T18:23:04Z warweasle: linux_dream: Or prolog.
2016-04-29T18:24:10Z White_Flame: syntactically, 'i and 'i-1 are independent symbols, but I don't think that's what you mean
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2016-04-29T19:02:20Z emaczen: How can I "restore" a stream after I have called some "read" function on it?
2016-04-29T19:02:37Z emaczen: I want to read more than one character so peek-char I don't think is suitable here.
2016-04-29T19:02:51Z Bike: you can't, in general
2016-04-29T19:02:56Z Xach: emaczen: for an arbitrary stream, you have to introduce your own buffering of some sort.
2016-04-29T19:03:08Z Xach: emaczen: for a file-based stream, you could possibly work with file-position to return to a particular point
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2016-04-29T19:03:43Z emaczen: Xach: what do you mean by buffering?
2016-04-29T19:03:57Z emaczen: or "introduce your own buffer" can you provide an example?
2016-04-29T19:05:31Z Xach: emaczen: it means making a data structure that can hold some characters, and also has a reference to the stream. you then peek characters from that structure, and it fetches from the stream if necessary. and if you need to go back, it stuffs them away somewhere for you to peek or read again.
2016-04-29T19:05:44Z Xach: emaczen: you will know best what fits your specific needs
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2016-04-29T19:10:13Z emaczen: So I'm unsure of where to start -- I don't see any functions that can rebuild the stream if I read from them?
2016-04-29T19:10:55Z Xach: emaczen: you don't rebuild the stream. if you want to go "back", your structure saves the data from the stream.
2016-04-29T19:10:58Z emaczen: If I had a raw C array for example I could do whatever I want right?
2016-04-29T19:11:11Z Xach: I don't really know what you want, sorry.
2016-04-29T19:12:08Z emaczen: Xach: Okay, I think I understand now. -- I can't use raw CL streams like I was hoping to.
2016-04-29T19:12:10Z Xach: Instead of reading from the stream, you "read" (not with standard read functions) from the object you have made. the object is responsible for keeping track of when it needs to fetch data from the stream and when it needs to fetch it from things it stashed away.
2016-04-29T19:12:20Z Xach: emaczen: What are you hoping to do?
2016-04-29T19:12:25Z dlowe: emaczen: I don't know of any language that will let you arbitrarily put things back into the stream buffer
2016-04-29T19:13:16Z emaczen: I'm inexperienced with streams
2016-04-29T19:13:45Z emaczen: I see what Xach: is saying now. I have to build my own stream objects.
2016-04-29T19:13:54Z Xach: stream-like
2016-04-29T19:14:03Z Xach: emaczen: what are you hoping to do?
2016-04-29T19:14:23Z Xach: Maybe there's a different way
2016-04-29T19:16:00Z emaczen: I think I just want "peek-word" where words subsequences of a string delimited by whitespace
2016-04-29T19:16:12Z emaczen: words are*
2016-04-29T19:16:55Z Xach: Why?
2016-04-29T19:17:29Z emaczen: I want a (read-until fn stream) method
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2016-04-29T19:18:03Z emaczen: current fn: character -> boolean  I would like to also support fn: string -> boolean
2016-04-29T19:18:09Z Xach: I have something like that in the Quicklisp http client.
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2016-04-29T19:18:37Z Xach: There's a read-until <match-pattern> and a read-n-bytes <count>.
2016-04-29T19:18:47Z Xach: the match patterns can get slightly fancy.
2016-04-29T19:19:08Z Xach: that's how it eats up headers, bodies, and chunked bodies.
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2016-04-29T19:20:20Z Xach: instead of a stream, it uses a "connection buffer" that has a connection that supports only reading more data, and some other stuff that knows if a match has happened, and can resume trying to match if it's only partial, etc.
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2016-04-29T19:21:21Z Xach: anyway, there are lots of ways to do things. that's the one i put together. works for what i was doing.
2016-04-29T19:22:32Z emaczen: What is the difference between a buffer and a mutable string?
2016-04-29T19:22:42Z emaczen: buffers aren't formally defined in CL right?
2016-04-29T19:22:50Z emaczen: or mutable array
2016-04-29T19:24:23Z emaczen: nvm I found a reference from Java terminology
2016-04-29T19:24:32Z emaczen: But are buffers defined in CL?
2016-04-29T19:24:51Z Xach: A buffer is just a place to put stuff.
2016-04-29T19:25:12Z Xach: there is no formal buffer concept in CL
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2016-04-29T19:30:58Z Xach: When I was younger I remember being really confused by jwz's description of an algorithm in C, it talked about "objects". And I was pretty sure that C didn't have objects.
2016-04-29T19:31:03Z Xach: Now I know a little better.
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2016-04-29T19:45:20Z Xach: http://alvyray.com/Memos/CG/Microsoft/5_sprite.pdf also opened my eyes in that regard
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2016-04-29T21:20:18Z emaczen: Is there a built-in function to add a subsequence of a sequence to the end of another sequence?
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2016-04-29T21:41:12Z PuercoPop: emaczen: merge, although it is allow to modify its arguments
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2016-04-29T21:55:00Z PuercoPop: does anyone know if there is a public source control repository from where to pull/clone ltk? I want to be able to read the code with vc-annotate available
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2016-04-29T22:40:14Z katco: how can i do this? (defun foo ()) (defun bar () (flet ((foo () (foo))))) ?
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2016-04-29T22:41:21Z Bike: like that?
2016-04-29T22:41:55Z katco: Bike: sorry, let me revise
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2016-04-29T22:42:04Z katco: (defun foo ()) (defun bar () (labels ((foo () (foo)))))
2016-04-29T22:42:09Z Bike: it's legal code, if pointless
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2016-04-29T22:42:16Z Bike: ok, so that's an infinite recursion
2016-04-29T22:42:21Z Bike: you can do that if you want
2016-04-29T22:42:34Z Bike: but maybe you want to do something else, and you should describe that something else?
2016-04-29T22:42:44Z katco: Bike: i'm trying to get the local function to call out to the global function (in my case it's a defmethod)
2016-04-29T22:42:51Z katco: Bike: but they're named the same
2016-04-29T22:43:08Z Bike: okay, well, usually, you would just not name them the same.
2016-04-29T22:43:21Z Bike: if you for some reason are compelled to, you can do (funcall 'foo ...) and that will be the global function.
2016-04-29T22:43:23Z katco: Bike: but the name makes so much sense T.T
2016-04-29T22:43:36Z Bike: apparently not, if it's causing you ambiguity!
2016-04-29T22:43:37Z katco: Bike: it's a defmethod, does funcall work on that?
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2016-04-29T22:43:52Z Bike: you can funcall generic functions
2016-04-29T22:43:58Z katco: Bike: ha :) well, the local functions are the same functions with parameters elided
2016-04-29T22:44:19Z Bike: i'd seriously just call it foo-aux or whatever, it's not worth the hassle
2016-04-29T22:44:44Z katco: Bike: i'm not opposed to that, but can't think of a way to describe the elided version
2016-04-29T22:44:58Z katco: Bike: foo-elided, foo-simplified?
2016-04-29T22:45:04Z Bike: you don't have to. it could literally just be the same name but with a % on it or something
2016-04-29T22:45:39Z katco: Bike: but then if i'm reading through the code, it's kinda like "what's this weird thing on the end?"
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2016-04-29T22:46:27Z Bike: if so, all they have to do is look up at the labels form. the definition is right there. great thing about local functions, that
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2016-04-29T22:46:54Z katco: Bike: too true. you're probably right.
2016-04-29T22:47:32Z rme: FWIW, if you flet foo, then within foo's body, then that foo will not yet refer to the local function foo.  If you use labels, it will.
2016-04-29T22:47:48Z rme: But just use a different name, seriously.
2016-04-29T22:47:58Z katco: rme: yeah, i have to use labels because i have labeled functions referring to one another
2016-04-29T22:48:28Z katco: Bike: rme: ok, it's good to see consensus from the community :) i'll just use a diff name. is there a convention for little one-offs like that?
2016-04-29T22:49:02Z Bike: not that i know of, because they're too little to spend much time on, you know?
2016-04-29T22:49:20Z rme: I've seen stuff like %foo, or foo* or foo1 or whatever. Not that important, IMO.
2016-04-29T22:49:33Z katco: is foo' legal?
2016-04-29T22:49:37Z katco: as in "foo-prime"?
2016-04-29T22:50:16Z rme: Nice idea, but no.
2016-04-29T22:50:58Z katco: fooΩ ! ;p
2016-04-29T22:54:50Z rme: I think foo' works with ML.  On the other hand, stuff like *foo-bar* doesn't work in ML.
2016-04-29T22:55:14Z katco: rme: sorry, my lisp-fu is still a bit weak. what is ML?
2016-04-29T22:56:58Z rme: ML is a programming language.  Sorry, I'm just kind of blathering.
2016-04-29T22:58:12Z katco: rme: no worries, just needed some context :)
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2016-04-29T23:03:42Z katco: follow up question, i'm passing the fletted functions to other functions. is there any way to utilize those within functions without doing (funcall foo)?
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2016-04-29T23:11:12Z rme: No, you have to use funcall.
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2016-04-29T23:22:53Z katco: rme: ty
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2016-04-29T23:37:44Z akkad: how does one get the profiler: package to be included in generate-application..
2016-04-29T23:38:03Z akkad: prof loads fine, but depends on profiler: which it fails to find at runtime
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2016-04-30T02:18:40Z John[Lisbeth]: how do I print a string to the terminal without a newline
2016-04-30T02:19:04Z gabriel_laddel: John[Lisbeth]: use format. or princ. or write-string
2016-04-30T02:19:36Z gabriel_laddel: loop through and write each individual char...
2016-04-30T02:19:51Z gabriel_laddel: (using write-char)
2016-04-30T02:20:26Z gabriel_laddel: if you're writing to a literal terminal (eg, xterm) don't forget to `force-output'. else whatever it is won't show up
2016-04-30T02:20:52Z John[Lisbeth]: When I type (format nil "hello\n") it does not print a newline
2016-04-30T02:21:11Z gabriel_laddel: John[Lisbeth]: oh oh oh
2016-04-30T02:21:19Z gabriel_laddel: John[Lisbeth]: you're asking how to use newline in format?
2016-04-30T02:21:29Z gabriel_laddel: when the terminal itself does not have a newline?
2016-04-30T02:21:41Z gabriel_laddel: anyways, try (format nil "hello ~% there")
2016-04-30T02:21:54Z gabriel_laddel: John[Lisbeth]: ~% is the format directive for newline
2016-04-30T02:24:38Z John[Lisbeth]: append a string to a string
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2016-04-30T02:24:57Z gabriel_laddel: John[Lisbeth]: there are a few ways to do this
2016-04-30T02:25:03Z gabriel_laddel: do you know about `coerce'?
2016-04-30T02:25:09Z John[Lisbeth]: no
2016-04-30T02:25:12Z gabriel_laddel: you can do (coerce "some-string" 'list)
2016-04-30T02:25:38Z John[Lisbeth]: I can't just take an arbitrary number of strings and return one string?
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2016-04-30T02:25:41Z John[Lisbeth]: like concatenate?
2016-04-30T02:25:45Z gabriel_laddel: sure you can
2016-04-30T02:26:05Z John[Lisbeth]: what is the function to do that?
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2016-04-30T02:26:18Z gabriel_laddel: apply #'concatenate 'string
2016-04-30T02:26:35Z rszeno corece? :)
2016-04-30T02:26:41Z gabriel_laddel: try (apply #'concatenate 'string '("string" "some other string" "lol"))
2016-04-30T02:27:55Z gabriel_laddel: rszeno: yeah. he could interpose #\newline inbetween a bunch of strings (now lists), then coerce back to a string.
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2016-04-30T02:28:15Z rszeno: or (coerce 'string '(......))
2016-04-30T02:29:04Z rszeno: i didn't test it
2016-04-30T02:31:19Z John[Lisbeth]: (defun do-concat (string1 string2) (coerce 'string '(string1 string2)))
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2016-04-30T02:32:11Z Bike: that qutoe is probably not what you meant
2016-04-30T02:33:30Z John[Lisbeth]: which one?
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2016-04-30T02:36:19Z Bike: '(string1 string2)
2016-04-30T02:37:56Z rszeno: actualy type of result must be last, my fault
2016-04-30T02:38:08Z edgar-rft: Example from CLHS: (concatenate 'string "all" " " "together" " " "now") => "all together now"
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2016-04-30T08:38:12Z phoe_krk: John[Lisbeth]: you generally APPLY a function when you have an arbitrary number of args on a list.
2016-04-30T08:38:49Z phoe_krk: Let x be a list of (1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1). Then you just (apply #'+ x) and boom.
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2016-04-30T12:10:20Z shka: hi
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2016-04-30T12:10:33Z shka: how can i shrink fill fointer of adjustable array?
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2016-04-30T12:12:59Z scymtym_: shka: (setf (fill-pointer ARRAY) SMALLER-VALUE)
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2016-04-30T12:13:18Z shka: scymtym_: thanks!
2016-04-30T12:13:38Z shka: one would expect that adjust-array would work both ways
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2016-04-30T12:15:47Z scymtym_: can you give an example?
2016-04-30T12:16:41Z shka: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315056
2016-04-30T12:16:56Z shka: i was expecting that adjust-array in this case, would reduce fill pointer of adjustable array
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2016-04-30T12:17:37Z pjb: shka: using adjust-array just to modify the fill-pointer would defeat the purpose, since it could be copying the whole array everytime, if the arrays are not adjustable.
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2016-04-30T12:17:50Z pjb: You can have a vector with a fill-pointer without it being adjustable.
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2016-04-30T12:18:03Z pjb: And an implementation may have no adjustable arrays.
2016-04-30T12:18:18Z shka: aren't adjustable arrays in the standard?
2016-04-30T12:18:26Z pjb: They are.
2016-04-30T12:19:01Z shka: hmmm
2016-04-30T12:19:47Z pjb: Oh, right, sorry, implementations have to have actually adjustable arrays: If adjustable is non-nil, the array is expressly adjustable (and so actually adjustable); otherwise, the array is not expressly adjustable (and it is implementation-dependent whether the array is actually adjustable).
2016-04-30T12:19:47Z pjb:  
2016-04-30T12:20:06Z pjb: 8
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2016-04-30T12:20:25Z shka: well, actually i'm fine with limiting this function to adjustable arrays
2016-04-30T12:20:37Z shka: with fill pointers
2016-04-30T12:20:51Z shka: using arrays in cl is so complicated
2016-04-30T12:20:55Z shka: :(
2016-04-30T12:21:04Z pjb: No, it's sophisticated.
2016-04-30T12:21:17Z pjb: And even, not that much, it only looks sophisticated compared to C.
2016-04-30T12:21:34Z pjb: For example, we cannot choose the base index in each dimension like in Pascal.
2016-04-30T12:21:41Z pjb: We cannot access slices.
2016-04-30T12:22:38Z pjb: We cannot displace an array to a column of another array.  This is really a big sore point.
2016-04-30T12:22:53Z pjb: Implementation wise, it wouldn't cost anything.
2016-04-30T12:24:18Z shka: well, i happen to be C++ programmer, so that's my comparsion point
2016-04-30T12:24:55Z pjb: Well, C++ is way more complex than CL.
2016-04-30T12:25:05Z shka: that is usually true
2016-04-30T12:25:12Z shka: but not in the array department
2016-04-30T12:25:24Z shka: ;-)
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2016-04-30T12:26:06Z shka: pjb: but thanks for answer
2016-04-30T12:26:22Z shka: it was really helpfull
2016-04-30T12:26:56Z pjb: Just setting the fill-pointer is simplier anyways. You don't have to pass again all the parameters (dimension, element type, etc).
2016-04-30T12:27:15Z shka: that's exactly what i do
2016-04-30T12:27:31Z shka: life is a lot simpler this way
2016-04-30T12:27:59Z shka: so i'm fine with function working only on fill pointer vectors
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2016-04-30T12:31:27Z pjb: The funny thing with fill pointers is that the objects beyond it are still still stored in the array; they're just "hidden".
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2016-04-30T12:56:08Z Jonsky: I found that when I used sbcl in Emacs, I could define functions or variables in unicode characters but I could do so in command line. Today I found the variable sb-impl::*default-external-format*. In command line I got :UTF-8 but in Emacs I got :US-ASCII. Why is that?
2016-04-30T12:56:42Z Jonsky: I meant I could NOT define unicode in Emacs. Sorry for the typo.
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2016-04-30T13:00:05Z pjb: Jonsky: sbcl uses LC_*/LANG to initialize its default external format.
2016-04-30T13:00:21Z groovy2shoes: Jonsky, is your Emacs buffer set up to use the utf-8 encoding?
2016-04-30T13:00:59Z Jonsky: groovy2shoes: how to check that?
2016-04-30T13:01:12Z groovy2shoes: no idea, I use vim :p
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2016-04-30T13:01:50Z Jonsky: groovy2shoes: haha, don't worry, I used vim too (and I still love it)
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2016-04-30T13:03:29Z dto: Xach: we are up to 56 signups.
2016-04-30T13:03:59Z groovy2shoes: I have enough knowledge of emacs that I can move around and eval expressions and install shit from ELPA and get help, but I've been using vim for years and I'm just more comfortable in that environment
2016-04-30T13:05:16Z groovy2shoes: I honestly think vim is a superior editor, but I do envy what (GNU) emacs is as a software platform
2016-04-30T13:05:42Z groovy2shoes: I've been tempted to write a vim clone that uses Scheme or something in place of vimscript, but I don't have the time :/
2016-04-30T13:05:56Z shka: luckly, you can have vim inside emacs
2016-04-30T13:06:03Z groovy2shoes: stop saying that
2016-04-30T13:06:09Z groovy2shoes: evil-mode isn't the same
2016-04-30T13:06:40Z Jonsky: pjb: aha, LC_CTYPE's are different when I type locale in Emacs and command line. That maybe it.
2016-04-30T13:06:42Z groovy2shoes: also, spacemacs is a lump of shit and I wish all the hipsters would just pick a goddamn editor already
2016-04-30T13:07:41Z Jonsky: groovy2shoes: you can open a terminal in emacns and then open vim...
2016-04-30T13:07:52Z groovy2shoes: it was textmate then it was coda then it was sublime text then it was atom then it was vs code then it was atom again now it's spacemacs... and that's just been the last 5 years... christ, just settle down with a nice editor already
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2016-04-30T13:08:17Z shka: heh
2016-04-30T13:08:21Z shka is using spacemacs
2016-04-30T13:08:44Z Jonsky is still quite happy with evil-mode
2016-04-30T13:08:46Z groovy2shoes: I don't even care *which* editor you pick, just pick one already already! (as long as it's not atom :p)
2016-04-30T13:09:09Z groovy2shoes: s/ already / /
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2016-04-30T13:11:51Z shka: i don't even know what atom is
2016-04-30T13:11:58Z shka: ;-)
2016-04-30T13:12:22Z groovy2shoes: were you around back in the day when EMACS stood for Eight Megs And Constantly Swapping?
2016-04-30T13:12:37Z shka: no
2016-04-30T13:13:04Z groovy2shoes: ah
2016-04-30T13:13:12Z groovy2shoes: well, Atom is the new *that*
2016-04-30T13:13:29Z groovy2shoes: like, forget about running it on a Raspberry Pi unless you want to thrash your swap partition
2016-04-30T13:14:00Z shka: and it is text editor?
2016-04-30T13:14:05Z groovy2shoes: it's a text editor based on Google Chromium and written mostly in JavaScript
2016-04-30T13:14:12Z shka: oh
2016-04-30T13:14:21Z shka: this sounds ankward
2016-04-30T13:14:49Z groovy2shoes: it's fans claim it has all the extensibility of emacs, but... JavaScript makes me cry myself to sleep at night, whereas Lisp is beautiful
2016-04-30T13:15:15Z groovy2shoes: emacs is also *lightweight* nowadays
2016-04-30T13:15:23Z groovy2shoes: runs just fine on the RPi
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2016-04-30T13:16:40Z lexicall: slime runs better on emacs as i know
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2016-04-30T13:16:56Z Jonsky: true programmers use ed...
2016-04-30T13:17:07Z otwieracz: Emacs is terribly designed in terms of multi-threading.
2016-04-30T13:17:08Z Jonsky: btw I don't get it
2016-04-30T13:17:12Z otwieracz: And garbage collection.
2016-04-30T13:17:26Z groovy2shoes: I use ed on occasion... it's the only editor in the OpenBSD ramdisk environment
2016-04-30T13:17:28Z otwieracz: And SLIME is the only reason to actually use it.
2016-04-30T13:18:00Z Jonsky: does slime "belong" to lisp repl or to emacs? because somehow one can install slime through emacs or quicklisp
2016-04-30T13:18:05Z groovy2shoes: I agree... I'm still in awe when I can't *do* anything while ELPA is installing packages
2016-04-30T13:18:22Z otwieracz: On rather top-end laptop my emacs is not even able to scroll smoothly.
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2016-04-30T13:18:25Z groovy2shoes: Jonsky, SLIME runs Swank inside the Lisp REPL
2016-04-30T13:18:33Z otwieracz: Due to font-locking.
2016-04-30T13:18:41Z groovy2shoes: Jonsky, but there's a considerable amount of SLIME that runs in emacs, too
2016-04-30T13:19:31Z otwieracz: Jonsky: I've already tried everything. SLIME & Emacs is the only real choice.
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2016-04-30T13:19:58Z lexicall: i'd prefer lispworks if they have a more reasonable price :)
2016-04-30T13:20:18Z Jonsky: I remember I tried it once from emacs and then something went wrong and other people suggested me to install it from quicklisp and I still haven't done it...
2016-04-30T13:20:29Z groovy2shoes: someone should revive Climacs or Portable Hemlock
2016-04-30T13:20:49Z groovy2shoes: or beat Edwin into something featureful
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2016-04-30T13:25:07Z otwieracz: maybe some day vim & slimv will become usable
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2016-04-30T13:42:25Z Jonsky: or maybe emacs will became multi-thread before that day.
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2016-04-30T14:02:30Z |2701: guilemacs is going solve all that
2016-04-30T14:03:18Z |2701: also atom doesnt run on chromium, it uses electron...
2016-04-30T14:04:01Z |2701: it only uses chromium for v8
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2016-04-30T14:21:55Z p_l: electron is chromium embedding framework with some bootstrap code
2016-04-30T14:22:11Z p_l: or rather, electron runs on chromium
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2016-04-30T14:38:37Z groovy2shoes: Guilemacs:  Real Soon Now™
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2016-04-30T15:42:14Z sepi: Does anyone know why drakma gets caught in a 301 redirect lop for the following request while it just works with curl and a browser? (drakma:http-request "https://lb.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%ABscht_vun_de_L%C3%ABtzebuerger_Uertschaften,_H%C3%A4ff_a_Lieu-diten")
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2016-04-30T15:44:24Z Daiberlyn92: hello.
2016-04-30T15:46:27Z Daiberlyn92: queen
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2016-04-30T15:52:02Z lexicall: queen?
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2016-04-30T15:55:36Z sepi: The problem seems to be related to the use of diacritics
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2016-04-30T15:55:49Z sepi: lexicall: Could be a bot
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2016-04-30T16:01:30Z sepi: anyways, :preserve-uri t seems to work around the issue
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2016-04-30T20:28:22Z otwieracz: well, guileemacs will make no sense
2016-04-30T20:28:38Z otwieracz: I mean, the only advantage of emacs is the whole ecosystem written in elisp.
2016-04-30T20:29:13Z p_l: otwieracz: afaik they have elisp implemented in guile or something
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2016-04-30T20:31:46Z otwieracz: Guile supports concurrency essentially via POSIX threads. In Guile-Emacs it is possible to launch any number of threads executing Scheme, but this doesn’t solve the problem that Emacs is full of thread-unsafe data structures and global resources, so programming an Emacs extension using concurrent Scheme code might prove to be full of unexpected roadblocks and pitholes. Some Elisp functions even abuse the
2016-04-30T20:31:52Z otwieracz:  single-threaded nature of Emacs, mutating global resources then mutating them back to give the illusion of referential transparency, so nonchalant usage of Elisp APIs from concurrent code remains problematic.
2016-04-30T20:32:17Z otwieracz guilemacs > /dev/null
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2016-04-30T20:34:07Z phoe_krk: Why (mapcan #'+ '(1 2 3 4 5)) evaluates to 5?
2016-04-30T20:35:02Z Bike: some confusing reason having to do with mutating quoted data
2016-04-30T20:35:18Z Bike: oh, or not
2016-04-30T20:36:00Z phoe_krk: Sure thing, (mapcan #'+ (list 1 2 3 4 5)) => 5
2016-04-30T20:36:24Z Bike: right...
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2016-04-30T20:38:47Z phoe_krk: and it's not implementation-dependent
2016-04-30T20:39:05Z phoe_krk: SBCL, ECL and CLISP behave the same way
2016-04-30T20:40:03Z Bike: dunno, i guess. the equivalence isn't working. it's wrong input, so the result is strange.
2016-04-30T20:40:46Z phoe_krk: Yes. But it should error out.
2016-04-30T20:41:07Z Bike: it would be nice if it did, but it doesn't have to, strictly speaking
2016-04-30T20:41:17Z phoe_krk: Just like (apply #'nconc (mapcar #'+ (list 1 2 3 4 5))) does.
2016-04-30T20:41:37Z phoe_krk: clhs mapcar
2016-04-30T20:41:37Z specbot: http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm
2016-04-30T20:41:42Z phoe_krk: This does say these are equivalent.
2016-04-30T20:41:59Z Bike: errors aren't results
2016-04-30T20:42:18Z Bike: i don't want to get too anal though. you should file bugs if you need errors.
2016-04-30T20:42:23Z phoe_krk: But here we get a result where we should get an error.
2016-04-30T20:42:30Z phoe_krk: And it looks like I should file bugs everywhere. :P
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2016-04-30T21:17:57Z Cxcf: hey guys, do you add all your defvars to your main method, or do you add them outside and then load the file to SLIME?
2016-04-30T21:18:12Z Bike: what's a main method?
2016-04-30T21:18:38Z Cxcf: well, I usually include a (main) and run that in slime if I want to zero out my array's
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2016-04-30T21:19:00Z Cxcf: It's my second lisp program and I haven't quite got the hang of how to structure it yet:/
2016-04-30T21:19:15Z varjag: you won't reset the values by recompiling defvars
2016-04-30T21:19:22Z varjag: defparameter allows that
2016-04-30T21:19:27Z Bike: what do you mean zero out your arrays? you can just put an array in your program if you need one
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2016-04-30T21:19:32Z Cxcf: I have initialization methods after
2016-04-30T21:19:57Z varjag: also, defvar are typically used at top level
2016-04-30T21:20:16Z varjag: they aren't meant for local bindings
2016-04-30T21:20:30Z Bike: and you probably mean functions, rather than methods.
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2016-04-30T21:21:44Z Cxcf`: I should have explained more. I'm simulating registers using arrays. If I ever want to reset or zero our the regs, I just run my (main), where I've included calls to my initialization methods.
2016-04-30T21:22:22Z varjag: method in common lisp refers specifically to CLOS methods
2016-04-30T21:22:25Z Bike: usually i would have a function like "reset-registers" or something, and call that if i wanted to reset them.
2016-04-30T21:22:39Z Cxcf`: I guess my question is, to someone who is used to Java (aside from a compulsory main mehtod), how are lisp programs structured differently?
2016-04-30T21:22:42Z Bike: it doesn't have to be "main", or central, in any way.
2016-04-30T21:22:44Z mrSpec: Cxcf`: I often do (defvar *x*) top-level and then (let ((*x* …))
2016-04-30T21:23:25Z Cxcf`: mrSpec: what does \205 mean?
2016-04-30T21:23:36Z mrSpec: ... :)
2016-04-30T21:24:06Z Cxcf`: hmmm, wonder why erc makes it a \205:/
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2016-04-30T21:24:39Z Bike: úñìçøðê problems, probably
2016-04-30T21:25:06Z mrSpec: Cxcf`: sorry, I use utf8 character - http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2026/index.htm
2016-04-30T21:25:45Z Cxcf`: mrSpec: no worries:)
2016-04-30T21:25:48Z Cxcf`: thanks
2016-04-30T21:25:50Z Bike: i think the main thing with strucutring a lisp program is that there might not be a "program", really. most of the time you just have an interactive repl environment, and load stuff into it.
2016-04-30T21:26:48Z Cxcf`: Bike: gotcha, is there anything analagous to a style guide that you know of?
2016-04-30T21:27:02Z Bike: https://google.github.io/styleguide/lispguide.xml
2016-04-30T21:27:37Z Cxcf`: thankyou much:)
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2016-04-30T23:11:02Z linuxuser9000: Howdy-do lisperinos!
2016-04-30T23:11:58Z linuxuser9000: Can anyone say whether or not this is a fine resource for my to learn Lisp with? http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/
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2016-04-30T23:12:58Z varjag: it's a great book
2016-04-30T23:13:40Z Fade: is it already widely reported that 'iterate fails to build on sbcl-1.3.5?
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2016-04-30T23:20:04Z linuxuser9000: thanks, varjag. will the things i learn in it apply to other dialects of lisp such as PicoLisp?
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2016-04-30T23:25:20Z attila_lendvai: Fade: works for me
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2016-04-30T23:33:17Z Fade: hum
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2016-04-30T23:44:03Z Bourne: Hey guys! Which dialect of Lisp advise the beginner? While I tend to Common Lisp. ;Sorry for my English =\
2016-04-30T23:44:38Z Fade: build failure: http://paste.lisp.org/display/315106
2016-04-30T23:44:42Z rszeno: lisp
2016-04-30T23:44:55Z Fade: sbcl-1.3.5, no user init, just quicklisp.
2016-04-30T23:45:08Z Fade: amd64 on linux.
2016-04-30T23:50:25Z John[Lisbeth]: land of lisp
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2016-04-30T23:54:02Z John[Lisbeth]: How do I cycle through my previous commands in slime?
2016-04-30T23:54:54Z Xach: John[Lisbeth]: M-p is what I use
2016-04-30T23:55:22Z MrrTrump: xach yu voting trump?
2016-04-30T23:55:34Z MrrTrump: I hope all Maine will rally behind Trump
2016-04-30T23:55:51Z MrrTrump: hows teh lisp web dominaton?
2016-04-30T23:56:07Z MrrTrump: still better than happstack gnoga and aidaweb?
2016-04-30T23:56:36Z MrrTrump: its been a decade and I havent learned lisp web developemnt
2016-04-30T23:56:40Z MrrTrump: Im kinda depresed about it
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2016-04-30T23:59:37Z John[Lisbeth]: Are you planning on learning lisp, MrrTrump ?
2016-04-30T23:59:46Z MrrTrump: of course